Loading...
BCC Minutes 09/11/1991 BORIGINAL COLLIER COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS PUBLIC HEARING PELICAN BAY SERVICES DIVISION BUDGET September 11, 1991 6:30 p.m. BaneFlorida Building 5801 Pelican Bay Boulevard 5th Floor Meeting Room Naples, Florida 33963 Reported by: Jeffrey W. Marquardt Notary Public State of Florida at Large TELE: OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Carrothers Reporting Service, Inc. 20th Judicial Circuit - Collier County 3301 East Tamiami Trail Naples, Florida 33962 813-732-2700 FAX: 813-774-6022 · ~,,o~,9FF!CIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 A-P-P-E-A-R-A-N-C-E-S BOARD MEMBERS: Anne Goodnight, Chairman Max Hasse, Commissioner Michael J. Volpe, Commissioner Burt Saunders, Commissioner Richard S. Shannahan, Commissioner STAFF: Mike McNees Bob Byrne Jim Ward Kenneth Cuyler - County Attorney Neil Dorrill - County Manager Tom Olliff - Growth Planning Department ALSO PRESENT: Lieutenant Byron C. Tomlinson, CCSO Gus Rocco Bernie Young OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I'll call the meeting to order. All rise. (Prayer recited by Mr. Dorrill) CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Thank you for having us here. I can't say that we all enjoy coming up here on a Wednesday afternoon, but we are certainly glad to be here and have you-all in the audience here. So -- but then, we're not happy of being anywhere at 6:30 in the afternoon. MR. McNEES: Good evening Madam Chairman and Commissioners and members of the public. As you know, we're here tonight to take public comment on those pieces of the County budget that represent what was formerly the Pelican Bay Improvement District and the provision of those services. I have a couple of logistical announcements to make before we begin. I will remind everyone that there are no microphones, and that we'll need to use our best voices so that everyone in the room can hear us. And, in particular, for the reporter. Secondly: I've been asked to remind you not to roam around the building because there are motion sensors that will set off alarms if any of us walk places where we're OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 not supposed to be. So, we're restricted to rest rooms, this room, the elevators and out the front door. I was asked to make that announcement. So, if anyone gets... With that, we have here, budget staff. We have the PFID staff represented, as well as the County operating staff and the Utilities Division. And to answer any questions, there may be an alternative presentation over to Bob Byrne, the budget analyst who's responsible for these budgets. MR. BYRNE: Commissioners, on page 1 is the budget for the Water Management Operating Department. This department is responsible for maintenance of the lakes, berms, and swales within the Pelican Bay community. There are six employees here that handle springs, lakes, and maintain the berms and swales. This department is funded by Special Assessments, and this little -- this budget is kind of confusing just by the fact that it's been split out into three different departments now. So, your percentage changes on the budget sheets are somewhat meaningless because you're comparing apples to oranges. With that, I will go on to page 2, which is Street Lighting Department. This is -- this department is funded OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES~ FL 33962 by ad valorem taxes, and it's -- basically, this budget is electricity and streetlight maintenance costs. The millage rate on this is .0882 mills, for your information. On pages 3 is the Right-Of-Way Beautification Depart- ment. This is basically outside contractors maintaining the road right-of-ways and planning areas and it also involves the irrigation costs with that. On page 4, is Fund 650. Here, for information purposes, this is a fund which is basically a holding account for the debt service on the water management funds. This isn't a direct obligation of Collier County. Then, on page 5 I have the Water and Sewer budget. You'll notice there we have the sewer -- water and sewer rates listed. You'll see that they are declining slightly. One item of note is the capital outlay. There are approximately 700,000 in capital outlay, and that's for some affluent storage and some expansion-related costs to the system. Now, on page 6 you will just see an average bill comparison for the District. That's basically my presentation. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I just notice the first Water OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 6 Management Operation and Street Lighting Department and Right-Of-Way Beautification were originally -- apparently one budget item had been-broken up. MR. BYRNE: Right. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Just on Water Management Operator, where you've shown a significant increase -- maybe it's not. I guess it's a significant increase in the reserves, and then there is no reserve in the Right-Of-Way Beautification. I just don't understand what the explanation of that would be. MR. BYRNE: There is a -- well, I guess, Jim, could you -- just the way budget is. MR. WARD: It's a budget technique. The reserves shown in the Water Management Operation are basically cash reserves to be utilized going into -- going forward into next year. MR. BYRNE: Is that a carry forward or is that a reserve? MR. WARD: It's actually a reserve cash. We're actually reserving a portion of our cash balance. MR. McNEES: Those three departments are all within the same fund, so it's -- that, I guess, would represent OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 that fund reserve and it shows up in one place, as opposed to being split. You'd have the same thing from the accounting standpoint. If you used it for a budget standpoint, you would have to split them. MR. BYRNE: We're keeping everything separate, I think just for legal reasons at this point, in case there's any problem. We have to keep everything as it was previous to the County taking it over, and that's the reason that -- MR. McNEES: And "Reserve" is a nondepartmental item. It doesn't need to be split between the varying departments. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: And then presumably~ with respect to our personal services, this budget anticipates the same percentage increase for employees of the Pelican Bay services as all other County employees? MR. BYRNE: Yes. MR. McNEES: That's correct. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Any other questions? COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: Madam Chairman, I am Going to direct this, I think, at Jim. On page 3, Jim, just maybe you could brief me as to how the outside -- the operating maintenance meetings and planning areas by outside OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 contractors are goinG. We had quite a debate about that and quite a selection process and I'd like to know if maybe you could tell me how things are going. MR. WARD: Certainly, Commissioner. I think that R.B. Lawn Services, initially when they came into Pelican Bay, they did an excellent job in terms of this project. They provided what I thought was above and beyond the norm. We have, however, within the last 60 days had some significant problems with that contract, which I'm currently trying to resolve with R.B. Lawn Services. And that is basically where we are at the current moment, so we have had some material losses in plant life and in the sodding, which I'm trying to dissolve with the contractor at this time. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: And that's happened in the last 60 days? MR. WARD: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: Would you please keep us posted on that? MR. WARD: Yes, sir. MR. DORRILL: You may want to follow up on that Tuesday, because you'll be awarded bids toward both Marco OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 Island and Lely Beautification Districts. In both instances, R.B. is either the lowest or sole bidder. And some of the bids we are getting in are so low it's a staff question whether some work can be done. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: Well, I notice that R. & B. was selected by the Marco Beautification Committee here last week without any opposition at all. So, if there's a problem here, I'd like to know about it because I was the one that supported the R. & B. contract and I'd like to keep posted on that. MR. DORRILL: We'll have an opportunity to discuss that a little further on Tuesday. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I'll take the public in just a minute. Are there any other questions from the Commissioners? COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: Well, I just want to kind of make a statement and question. I notice that the proposed rates on potable, waste water, irrigation, et cetera, appear to be less than what they were in '91 in every instance with the exception of irrigation on the golf course. Would somebody just maybe give my 30 seconds as to why all this, what appears to be good things, are OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 10 happening. MR. WARD: Yes, sir. The rate structure that is currently in place with the Pelican Bay Services Division is one that -- is one instance in which our costs have gone up a little bit less each year than the volume of customers that we have coming on line. So, accordingly, we have been able to just basically reduce our rates to the residential community, on average, about 3 percent. This coming year we reduced it about the same percentage for our current rate structure. The golf course, however, is one user within the system; and it just didn't fit in the average, so that rate Goes up a little each year, depending on what the costs are for providing that service for that specific user. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: (No responses) CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Any other questions? Okay. Then I'll open for public comment. Are we registering? No. Okay. Then the gentleman in the back who had his hand raised. MR. ROCCO: Good evening, and thank you very much, Madam Commissioner and Commissioners for coming out to Pelican Bay tonight. We appreciate you being here and OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 11 we -- and staff as well. Certainly, it's important for us that you be here. We feel that talking to you eye-to-eye will help resolve some issues that have come up over the past and help create a better understanding between ourselves and our government. When Commissioner Shannahan asked the question regarding our R. & B., it brings up a topic which was discussed today by the MSTBU group at our monthly meeting and I was asked to address this question to you and thank you for allowing me to do it now. A couple of things happened over the last month. Specifically, today, I Got a call from a builder here in Pelican Bay who had purchased some homesites from us over on the Golf course along Green Tree Drive. The assessment -- or the tax bill, not assessment~ the tax bill for last year was -- there were six of them, so they varied somewhat, but approximately $2200 per se. He just received the new tax bill and he called me to ask me if I thought it was right or what he should do about it, and they averaged about $5500. It's a substant~.al amount of money, a $5500 tax bill for a homesite, a piece of dirt that we refer to it as along the Golf course. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 ~2 Certainly in a desirable community but, all in all, I think everyone in this room would agree that that's a lot of money to pay for a homesite that is 95 by 140 feet deep, maybe, something like that. Probably when you do the multiplications and you add the millage rates and you add what the sales are, it comes up to some number similar to that. I know that you are presented, as Jim described to us today, with a very difficult problem. And the problem is: How do you satisfy residents in any community or within the entire community as a whole for what they do? The people in Pelican Bay, as I've tried to describe to you some months ago, are the same as the people that occupy all of the residences in Collier County. They do all the same things and react all the same ways as all of the people that are here in Collier County. They, in some ways, might be a little bit different; and in using the landscaping as an example, it might be one of the ways which presents your problem. You've got -- you must, I assume, or I have been told, go with a low bid operation. And coming from the private sector, I understand that. However, there's also the fact OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 13 that what we would -- we might ask you to consider is how do you approach that low bid operation when it was felt in the beginning that maybe these people might not work. For some period of time they did. It is dramatically clear now that within this operation it's not working. There are examples that we can show any of you where, from the bike path to the interior of the homesites, everything is fine. From the bike path out, there are big problems. So, Jim Ward has worked with R. & B. over a month ago. There was a semi-agreement that "X" number of yards, 14,000 square feet of sod needed to be replaced. They agreed that because of the existing conditions when they came in, it may not have all been perfect, so Jim was going to pay for half of it and R. & B. was going to pay for the other half. They now feel that maybe it's more. And every month that those things go on, of course, the cinch bugs keep working at the grass so that it will become more square footage; and I'm not really exaggerating, but it actually does happen. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Rocco, if I might address that contract for a moment. We are not required to go with the lowest bidder. We are required to go with the lowest OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 14 responsible bidder. I voted against award of the contract to R. & B. because I felt that based on Jim Ward's advice, there wasn't enough money in the contract for them to do an adequate job. If they are not doing an adequate job, then I think the procedure would be for the County Attorney to meet with Mr. Ward to see if there's a basis for defaulting the contract. Or, perhaps, bring them back before the County Commission for some review of the contract. But to -- there will be no point in delaying that. If they are not performing at this point and haven't been for 60 days, it's going to cost Pelican Bay substan- tial money each day that this vegetation is permitted to degrade. And I would suggest that, and I assume the rest of the Commission would suggest, that Mr. Cuyler and Mr. Ward get together and see if there's a breach of contract and what would be the appropriate action to take. MR. ROCCO: Well, that's why I was saying it took a little bit longer to get around to it. I wanted you to understand the position, and I -- again, thank you for coming; and if we can be of any other assistance or if you have any other questions, we would be happy, either through the Board or individually, to answer those questions. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 15 Thank you. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Just as a follow-up to that discussion: In that contract we have, in fact, a retaina~e and/or we have required some security for proper performance of the obligation of the contract. So, I assume that the issue that Mr. Saunders has identified as to whether or not there's been a default or breach of contract, we do have adequate protection and safeguards under the contract. MR. WARD: There are certainly cancellation provisions contained in the contract which were fairly strong. The retainage issue was, frankly, one of the issues that I had mentioned to the Commission during the award process, in that most landscape contractors are not capable of supplying bid or performance on these types of contracts. $o, there are no performance bonds for this contract. We retained a very small percentage of the contract amount on a monthly basis from them. This contract started in March, so we don't have a significant sum of money pooled at this particular time. To add to what Mr. Rocco said, as I have mentioned to you, I do think there has been a significant problem that's OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 16 occurred within the last 60 days. The good news is that, at least at this point, the bug problem, I think, has pretty much stopped. So, we certainly have dead material out there that needs to be replaced; but I need to have the opportunity to evaluate what that value is and come up with a course of action that is appropriate for the Board to take in terms of proceeding forward with that contract. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Have they given any indication that they're not going to rectify the problems that they've had? MR. WARD: I think Gus fairly stated it that about three or four weeks ago I had a solution with R.B. Lawn Services, and last week that solution sort of fell apart. I'm in the process, this week, of reevaluating the value of that work to be done and going to try to negotiate a reasonable solution of that with R.B. Lawn Services. I haven't had the opportunity, frankly, to sit down face-to-face with R.B. at this point to see what the total value of the loss to material is yet. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: Jim, if I remember correctly, we have another contractor as well. MR. WARD: Yes. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 17 COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: And who is that other contractor? MR. WARD: Jacaranda Landscape. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: What about Jacaranda? How are they performing? MR. WARD: Jacaranda is doing an excellent job. We haven't had any problems with them, and any materials that have been lost during this period have been replaced by Jacaranda. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: Similar work schedule, similar responsibilities? MR. WARD: They have exactly the same contract documents from which they are working. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: I think the point is -- and Burt made it, so I'll just underscore it -- is that we need to know how your negotiations go, what the results are, and we need to make some decisions to consider whether or not we want to continue on with that agreement. MR. WARD: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Madam Chairman, let's go back to the budge% for a second. In terms of the millage rate, this budget is funded through special assessments; is that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 18 correct, on an acreage basis? MR. BYRNE: Everything but the street lighting is handled by special assessments. ad valorem tax. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: The street lighting is by And so, all but the street lighting will continue to be on a special assessment basis to determine, not on a basis of acreage; correct? MR. BYRNE: I believe it is on acreage. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: how does that compare? able to read it. MR. WARD: Does the rate this year -- I mean I don't see it here. Maybe I'm not Let me give you a couple of different numbers. The total budget on an acreage basis form the dollar value was a million 68,000 last year. It's a million 105 this year. So, that's about a 3.5 percent increase from the prior year. The rate per acre last year was $717. This year, based upon some just estimates that I've done on the number of acres that will be available will be $762 per acre. That's about a 6 percent increase. That's going to run an average single-family home about $250 a year for all of those services, based upon three units to an acre as an OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 19 average calculation. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: lighting? MR. WARD: So, everything but street Right. Street lighting assessment, based And the vacant piece of property upon a quarter-of-a-million-dollar home in Pelican Bay, will run a resident $22. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: that Mr. Rocco identified, that property owner would be paying about $212 as well. MR. WARD: Assuming his lot is about a third of an acre. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mr. Rocco, also, you might ask the parties that you were talking to with the five lots to contact Mr. Skinner to make sure that the appraisals and everything on that were done appropriately. MR. ROCCO: Yes, Madam Chairman, I have. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Okay. Because, you know, there may have been a problem in that. And surely, as bad as the sales in real estate have been lately, they wouldn't jump that much, not even with a house being on it. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: There is appeal opportunity? MR. ROCCO: Yes, this Friday. One of the things that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 2O was -- it's a brand new area. Last year, I don't think the final plat was turned over with all of the road improve- ments, sewer and water hookups, and everything else by end year. Now they have been and there have been sales in that area. Which, as I mentioned, when you do the arithmetic, it probably could come out to this; but I only bring it up as a point that it's a substantial amount of money and the people are looking for the services. I don't -- I hate to beat a dead horse, but one of the things that Jim mentioned today which brought home to the -- your Advisory Board was a story on some flowers between the one landscaper versus the other. Jim, if you could take a minute just to mention that, I think that kind of states the case. MR. WARD: What I had mentioned to Gus is, as you know, there is an annual program in Pelican Bay in which we replace all of the flowering annually throughout the community. If my memory serves me correctly, there's about 30,000 plants twice a year that Go into the project. We've lost over 90 percent of the flowers in the R.B. portion of contract this year, and we lost the rest of the 10 percent of those flowers in the other portion of the contract this OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 21 year. R.B.'s original contention to me was that those materials were lost due to disease or something of that nature. What I said was that -- or what I was thinking was that flowers all came from the same grower, the same nursery, and it's just unusual to lose that many in one portion of the contract versus the other portion of the contract. We have about a 30 percent overage purchase every year in order to solve some of those types of problems, but it certainly didn't go all the way towards solving this particular problem. It didn't need to be solved because, frankly, once they died, there was no way to replace them. You can't purchase that many flowers in a short period of time in order to replace those. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: We don't need to send the Sheriff's out, do we? MR. WARD: I think not. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: Jim, it goes without saying, and I know you are doing this, but I would just like to underscore it. We really need to have good documentation, a very, very positive documentation on the losses for the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 22 flowers, the comparisons, the sod and et cetera. It would not be an easy dismissal, I will tell you now up front. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I have had the opportunity to meet with the Advisory Board of Pelican Bay, and I just want to mention in passing that I think that the primary commitment that we had made in connection with the turnover, I think this budget represents a fulfillment of what those commitments were. The budget allows for or provides for a continuation of a presence within Pelican Bay, the services that are being provided under the water and sewer and street lighting; and maintenance and we have maintained, as we had committed to do. That the rates this year would be the same or lower than what has been provided to other parts of the community. So, I just wanted to mention that and we had, I thought, a very productive meeting and I think that this group seems to have been working very well together. I was impressed by some of the discussions that took place the day that I was there, specifically as it relates to the Medium Beautification Project along U.S. 41 in what this group did in order to anticipate at a future point in time the necessity for some vegetation and landscape maintenance OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 23 in terms of installing an irrigation system or arranging for the installation. So, I think the groups work quite well, and I would like to thank them for their efforts in trying to help us administer some of the public services within the Pelican Bay community. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I have another statement. MR. McMURPHY: Excuse me. I don't want to be redundant over some knowledge you already have, I'm sure. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Will you give your name. MR. McMURPHY: My name is McMurphy, Jim McMurphy. I'm a resident of Pelican Bay. I just wanted to make this one point, you probably already know it, but it's very dangerous to let a contract -- I haven't examined the contract -- of this nature in the off season. If a company is not well-financed --- you know, when you're in the off season, the costs are very low, the cost of fulfilling the contract, the cost of cutting the grass or the trimming or treating the disease in the plants and so on a so forth. Where the real cost comes in is in the season, and that's what we're in now. And that's probably what has happened to this company. They were able to perform very OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 24 well when there wasn't very much work to perform. Now there's a heck of a lot of work to perform, they're in trouble. So, that may well be the reason. Thank you. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: They spread themselves a little bit too thin. Is that what you're saying? MR. McMURPHY: I think so. That's what it appears to me to be. Thank you. MR. DORRILL: That's why I indicated the potential for that exists with the two new jobs, as evidenced by the fact that our ability to Get additional bidders to bid in Lely and Marco have been very tough because they don't feel the money is there to be able to maintain their operations and make a profit. So, at a minimum, I think we need to have a heart-to-heart talk with R.B. as to whether or not their approach as to bidding is sound. And not that this is the most important factor, but you are dealing with a minority contractor here and I would dare say it's one of the few if perhaps the only minority business that does, you know, and has contracts with the County. And the extent to which we have tried to work with him and take him at his word, you know, he's made a Good-faith effort. He did lose his first and only prior contract that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 25 he had with the County because he originally had the government grounds maintenance contract and he lost that as well on a performance-related matter when we rebid last year. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Is there someone else from the public? MR. YOUNG: Bernie Young. Chairman of the Advisory Board, I just want to thank you, also, for your attendance this evening. I believe we have had a very productive group. We have worked hard and, hopefully, we are on our way to being a helpful committee to you as a counsel. There aren't too many people in Pelican Bay at this time of year, as you can see; however, we did get 11 of the 15 members at our Board meeting this afternoon, which I thought was remarkable for this time of year. And, we were unanimous in the two items that we have conveyed to you earlier in the minutes which you have. One is that we wish, at this time, to maintain a presence in Pelican Bay of this service division; and we are willing to pay a premium to do this. Therefore, when we looked at the budget that Jim had presented and found it to be in line with what has taken OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 26 place in the past, although we had difficulty -- and I'm sure you are with the figures you got tonight -- because it's not an apples and apples comparison. The overall figures were acceptable to the Board and, therefore, we would like you to approve the budget as presented. The second item is the funding and we believe that at this stage it's important that we continue to fund this budget in the same manner that we have funded in the past and that is with an ad valorem tax on the street lighting and an acreage assessment on the remaining portions. We believe there will be a time in the future when it might be possible to fairly raise funds on a total ad valorem basis. As the community develops and you have developed property, opposed to vacant property, you probably will find that taxpayers would pay about the same on an ad valorem basis as they would on an acreage but an acreage assessment is not unusual for water management or beautification and median maintenance. This is quite common in districts throughout Florida to do this on an acreage basis. So, that's the second part that we wish to convey to you tonight; that we would appreciate the continuance of the fund-raising on the same OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 27 basis that we have had in the past. We believe our people will accept this. Now, one final just comment: We are aware that it is probably costing us $70,000, in round figures, to maintain an office in the Sun Bank Building to maintain Jim as a consultant and a few other items that eventually could be incorporated in the County Government. But at this time, the cost, we feel, is being well-served in regard to the residents of Pelican Bay and we are happy with the way Jim has responded to date. And I think this is the interesting comment is, that although he works, you know, for you, he has gone out of his way to be fair with us; and I think that has been an essential portion of making this system work and I hope it can continue to work on this basis. We did remove the law enforcement section from the budget, so that is not a formal consideration this evening. But after we have addressed the budget, if there is still time, I would like to appear before you once more this evening on an informal basis to discuss a potential compromise on the law enforcement issue. Any questions? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I think, Mr. Young, when I was in OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 28 attendance at your meeting, there was some discussion and I understand at this particular point in the transition the importance of maybe in the foreseeable future of having a presence within Pelican Bay community. Just for the benefit of the other members of the Board, I do recall that there may have been some discussions, though, about perhaps relocating that office. And there was some discussion about lease arrangements and maybe finding another appropriate location, a suitable location, within the Pelican Bay community for the offices of this division. MR. YOUNG: We left the budget intact because if we find a suitable alternate location, then perhaps with some shuffling of funds, we could use money that currently would be budgeted for the lease for the Sun Bank to perhaps allow us to remodel existing facilities to accommodate Jim and his staff. So, that this would be a one-time expense and then in the future years it would be a savings to the people in Pelican Bay and this is an item which we want to look at at our future meetings. We approach the budget maybe a little differently. The fact that we recommend we approve this budget doesn't necessarily mean that all year long we're going to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 29 recommend that we spend all this money, but we need the funds available should we find that they could be better used. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Thank you. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I suspect it would be appropriate to close the public hearing. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Do we need a motion on this budget if we're going to approve this budget tonight, or will that be part of the approval on Wednesday? MR. McNEES: Everything that's in this budget tonight is also included in the overall County attentive budget, so we don't need any motion other than to close the meeting. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I have a motion -- COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: I second the motion. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: -- and a second to close the public hearing. All in favor, signify by saying aye. (Chorus of ayes) CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: (No opposed) CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mr. Young. MR. YOUNG: Opposed. The motion carries unanimously. The Board, although they were unanimous in OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 30 the support of our working relationship on the items that we've just discussed, were also equally adamant that -- in their disappointment that we were not able to work out some kind of a law enforcement program that we feel would better service Pelican Bay. We understand that the political ramifications of it and we accept responsibility in this issue, along with others, that the public was not prepared for the issue; and that probably was what caused most of the problem. In reassessing it in the meantime, there has been legislation passed in Tallahassee that does give the Sheriff's Department a little more leeway than they had in the past in contractual arrangements. There's no question in our m~nd, in that this new legislation allows us to hire off-duty patrolmen, and which we are currently doing through the foundation. There is still discussion and I'm not an attorney, so I'm certainly not trying to convey I have the answer; but there are some who feel this legislation will also permit the Sheriff to contract additional services on a regular basis with a private source. And he, under certain conditions would be, I believe from the conversations that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 31 we have had, willing to pursue this. So, although this is now a foundation matter, it does involve us because for the foundation to continue to try to work out a compromise for law enforcement with the Sheriff's Department, we would need to take you along with us in this so that you don't find something distasteful, because there still is this relationship between the Sheriff's Department and the County Commissioners. One possibility which we would like to explore with you is that we believe that we could start with perhaps two full-time Sheriff deputies, rather than the five that we were initially asking, and continue to use the Pinkerton Services. The concept is the same and may be distasteful to some; but there is an advantage in this to all concerned because the Sheriff, then, might be in a position where he would not have to come to you as a Board and say, "If this contract is dissolved, will you allow me to absorb these people I've hired for this contract in my budget"? because that's when it becomes political. Two people could be very easily absorbed, should a contract not be continued in terms of the future growth of Collier County. So, this might not have to be an issue. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 32 In other words, it might not have to involve you as the County Commission in that kind of a guarantee. The foundation, then, would contract with the Sheriff for these and we're just -- you know, we don't have anything definite in mind, we're just exploring with you tonight for these two people. And we would use them in critical times of the year, primarily for traffic control, which we are beginning to really anticipate a severe problem. At the key times, then, these two people could be hired and work exclusively for Pelican Bay and be available to us on a regular basis instead of an off-duty basis. That's essentially the big improvement that we would be getting is that they would -- they would become a part of the Pelican Bay network, as opposed to random selection of officers who have some off-duty time. I just think that they would create a more compatible situation. So, I don't have any more details to present. There may be some others here in the audience that have some discussion on this, but we would like to somehow have some continued dialogue with the Sheriff's Department. And if you prefer for political reasons that it be done via the foundation, we would like to pursue it on that, plus we OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 33 would like to have you aware of the situation so that you can say "Stop" somewhere along the line if things are progressing in a way that you find that might not work out politically. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I have asked the County Attorney to assist us in determining the status of that legislation. I know when I met with the Group that there were some discussions that were taking place, at least preliminarily, with Mr. Schryver. And as I had understood the legislation, this would allow either the Pelican Bay Foundation and/or the Pelican Bay Property Owners Association to contract directly with the Sheriff's Office. And that what I've understood you to say this evening, Mr. YounG, would simply be as a part of that contractual arrangement, the Sheriff possibly might be looking to the Board of County Commissioners as a safety net in the event that this contract -- MR. YOUNG: No, no, you wouldn't be looking at it as a safety net; but in the event that you find it distasteful and it creates a political problem, I don't think he wants to Get caught out there without the support of the County OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 34 Commission. I can't speak for him. You'll have to talk to him about that, but it's just -- we're not trying to do anything in Pelican Bay to politically make problems for anyone. We just have a problem we want to solve and we think maybe this could be the way to do it and we are hiring him through the foundation, which is a private entity, and so why do the people have to Get up in arms? But if you feel they will, you've got to come and tell us ahead of time so that we don't get so far involved here. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Any other private entity, whether it's Property Owners Association or some similar type of association, could themselves, as well, go out and contract with the Sheriff. So, that -- I Guess what you're saying, that's a decision that the Sheriff may have to make under this legislation because that's policy decision. MR. YOUNG: Unless you as a Commission challenge the contract that he's involved in because he still is under your supervision, or something like that. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: You probably will recall, when the issue of law enforcement in Pelican Bay came up before the County Commission the first time, I specifically asked Sheriff Hunter if he supported the concept of setting up OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 led 35 the special taxing district and proposed that was presented to us. He would not say that he supported that, he would say, "Well, if that's the only way to do it, then yes," but in principle he did not come out and say that he supported the establishment of the tax district. That all resulted in what I guess I would describe as a letter-writing war between the Sheriff and myself to the Pelican Bay people, and in which I basically said, "If the Sheriff was supportive of a law enforcement program that would benefit Pelican Bay, then he, as our chief law enforcement officer, would have my support." So, I think the critical thing in my mind is if Sheriff Hunter feels that entering into a contract to provide extra service in Pelican Bay, or in any area, is something that he feels is appropriate and recommends it, then I'm going to have to give a very hard and perhaps positive look at that because he is our chief law enforcement officer. If he's not willing to do that, then we have a problem. So, I think from what you've said, Sheriff Hunter apparently wants to do this and he's going to recommend it. I suspect the outcome will be different with that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 36 recommendation coming. But I think, if you will recall, I specifically asked him probably ten times at the Board meeting -- I got to be a little bit redundant -- but he never would come out and say yes, he supported the concept. MR. YOUNG: I think it caused a political problem for everyone. And so, this way we're trying to find a way that it doesn't have to. You know, there are going to be always some people that were going to say it's a bad idea; but I just wanted to get sort an idea from you tonight, just should we proceed with this kind of a dialogue with the Sheriff or are we causing problems again which we don't need to cause? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: You are going to be causing problems, but that's what we're here to solve. I would suggest that you go ahead and have the dialogue. Again, for me the critical issue is: Is he going to ask us to do it? Is he going to be supportive of it? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I essentially, I think, convey the same sentiment that I have tonight with members of the Advisory Board. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I think that my biggest concern OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY. NAPLES, FL 33962 37 is the new legislation and what parameters that gives the Sheriff and is the Sheriff in support of the thing? I have no problem with the concept of it. It works in numerous other communities, and I know that it can work just as well in Pelican Bay if that was the desires of the residents of Pelican Bay. MR. YOUNG: I think being new legislation, you're going to get as many answers as you've Got attorneys asking that you ask the question of. And then, as many Sheriff's as you ask the question of. And so, because we, as a foundation board, are already looking at it a little differently than the Sheriff's Department is looking at it and that's -- we have to resolve this in our own minds. And so, it's not as easy - it's not black and white, the new legislation~, is what I'm trying to say. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I understand that. MR. YOUNG: And that's why we don't want to do anything to offend the Commissioners on this. If we have your support, we think we can make it work. If we don't have your support, it isn't going to work. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: As far as I'm concerned continue ' ..... 38 Commissioner Hasse. COMMISSIONER HASSE: I have the same feeling. You know, conjecture of the people or outside concern that the Sheriff was being used here, we were paying, they were paying that Sheriff's deputies that were here. If not here, the basics of the headquarters and that sort of thinG, they were concerned about that. And they couldn't understand why the need was for additional. Have you had a problem out here since the Sheriff has not been active? Have you had a problem? MR. YOUNG: We have a continual traffic problem, but this is simply because I'm sure that he doesn't have the manpower to give us any special services. I mean, he can't patrol our streets any more than he can patrol Poinciana or any other development. COMMISSIONER HASSE: What's that, speeding or what? MR. ROCCO: Commissioner Hasse, also on Chairman of the Board of the Foundation, I review the security reports that come in daily from the -- our private service that we have. Fortunately, our -- when your statement has problems or has crime increased or whatever since the Sheriff has stopped coming, the Sheriff has not stopped coming. We OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 39 have continued the same program that we had with the Sheriff's Department last year and the year before since our meeting down at the Commission chambers some months ago. The same amount of hours, approximately 23 hours or 24 hours, something like that each week by off-duty deputies, still Goes on here in Pelican Bay. Plus, the fact that the Sheriff has, we think especially last season, made an effort to have some visible regular duty Sheriffs drive through the community on a more often basis. Our crime and/or speeders and traffic problems that we have had, it's not dramatically increased. We think that there has been a little bit more problem with traffic this summer due to the road, U.S. 41 being six-laned and the -- although it hasn't been a major upset as far as I'm concerned, some people who travel it constantly have cut through Pelican Bay, so that has increased somewhat. But the -- from the answers specifically to your question, there has not been a Great increase, yet the Sheriff's been at least as active in Pelican Bay during this past six- month period as he was for the previous 24 hours. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Commissioner Shannahan. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: Well, just three things: OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 40 One: I would like to have a better understanding on the legality in the new legislation as it relates to the contractual arrangement. I would suggest to you that you handle this very openly because of the sensitivity of the public outcry that we had last time. You started out, I think you remarked by saying that part of the problem of not accomplishing this before was because of poor and/or lack of communication and understandinG from the public. And if we are not careful and sensitive to that, we'll have the same problem again. I certainly have a complete and open mind relative to working toward a solution and a Good solution, an equitable solution; but I sure would make sure -- I would ask you to make sure we touch all of the bases along the way. MR. YOUNG: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Is there someone else from the public? (No responses) CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Then we have one other item that needs to be taken care of. Mr. Dorrill has asked to inform the Board on some street lighting. MR. DORRILL: I want to have a brief Sunshine OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 41 discussion concerning the street lighting, since there's been a fair amount of public discussion on it and I know a number of you have called in radio talk shows and the like and I want to let you know what -- remind all of us what the intent was and then tell you what the proposal or option can be. You wrote in thr Bridge and Road fund that it's supported through Gasoline and sales taxes, and it's been critical in condition for the better part of the last three fiscal quarters, as we have reported to you. And I can tell you that the cash carry forward in your Road and Bridge activities will be at or near zero as we begin the coming year, and it's only different than your ad valorem funds because our gas and sales tax are received monthly. Responding to that, we have done three primary things, not the least of which was the elimination 15 percent of the entire work force in that fund. Twenty people are losing their jobs in Road and Bridge. The second program reduction involved the elimination of nonarterial or secondary road mowing and median mowing, primarily as it will affect Marco Island and the Golden Gate Estates, Pine Ridge, and other areas where we have OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 42 done residential type riGht-of-way mowinG. And the final program and, in fact, the least costly program was the reduction in lightinG. And as you talk to people, I would hope that you would remind them that we haven't turned all of the lights off. Well, all lights remain on at every cross street intersection for safety reasons, as they affect pedestrians. We haven't turned all the lights off. By and large, the community is convinced that we have, and we have turned no lights off in the residential areas. There is no other money in the Road and Bridge fund to replace the arterial street lighting program as we go into next year. We will offer you some alternatives next Wednesday at your final budget hearing, but unfortunately they involve the use of ad valorem taxes because that's the only other alternative that you have. The general fund has not been in particularly good shape. General fund contingencies have been in issue with me and the Board all year long; and I think what you're Going to have to do is pick and choose and eliminate, first, some other program. Whether it's the capital program, at this point, seems the most likely thing that we OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 43 will do. And we can restore the Street Lighting program but I will tell you, as I have been talking to constitutional officers, they're not offering much help in meeting your zero percent increase over the rollback rate. So, to the extent that you want to reduce property taxes below the current rate, that's going to fall on my shoulders and your shoulders next Wednesday night unless you just reduce budgets un-unilaterally for constitutional officers. So, we can restore lights but you shouldn't assume that it's an automatic or easy thing to do, especially with respect to the Road and Bridge activities because they're in pretty difficult times as we are trying to finish this year and begin next year. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Are all the components in place for those street lights? In other words, are the street lights there? The poles, the bulbs and everything? MR. DORRILL: In most instances, we have a private contract with an electric company that does our preventative maintenance and our repair. I would tell you there are certain poles at certain intersections in this community where I don't think we can hardly keep a pole up OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 44 for 45 days in a row. There's a pole at the intersection of Radio Road and Airport Road right in front of the turnoff to the general aviation terminal at the airport. I bet we've replaced that pole three times a year. We can't keep poles in certain locations; but throughout the arterial system, I would say that 95 to 99 percent of all the poles are up. fixtures are in place. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: The balance of the Just quickly, my opinion. We have got a public outcry here again. And if there's public safety involved and those that are concerned feel that there is a safety aspect, if there isn't a safety aspect, I think we have to explain that fully and in detail through the media and every other way. As far as I'm concerned, if the outcry is to be extended, the people are demanding that we turn the lights back on, then I think we have to give some credence to that demand. Either some or all of the lights. Particularly, if it's a public safety issue, then we're going to have to let the money override and we're not going to let safety suffer as a result. So, the people are going to have to understand, if they want the lights turned on, we are going OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 45 to have to find a way to fund that particular situation, as you have just explained. If they don't want the lights on and are willing to -- and obviously that's not the case, as far as I'm concerned, I think the safety issue has become a very significant factor here and we might have to just override the whole consideration and put the money in there and do it. COMMISSIONER HASSE: you talking about? MR. DORRILL: That's fine. How much money are A hundred thousand dollars. COMMISSIONER HASSE: To operate all of these lights? MR. DORRILL: For 12 months. COMMISSIONER HASSE: I've mentioned that to you before; I mentioned it. What if we were to look at turning these lights off with a timer or whatever. At midnight or sometime like that, cutting them out -- certain lights out in the early morning hours when the traffic is at a minimum, wouldn't that be any better? MR. DORRILL: We would save some money. The amount of money that we've calculated would only be about $15,000 because the street lights -- Street Light savings program is in three elements: OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 46 One is the replacement of nonrecoverable automobile damage where we have poles that are knocked over. The second saving effort was in your ongoinG preventative maintenance program with the private company. The third element and about -- they're in equal thirds -- was the just electricity savings, and we've calculated that we can save about $15,000 by turning the lights off somewhere between midnight and dawn. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I have heard some of the same public concerns beinG expressed about this street lighting issue. I think what we're all saying is that -- I suspect that before the staff made the decision that this was an appropriate cost-savinGs measure, that the safety issue was taken into consideration. I've received a memorandum that's been Generated by our transportation services director, I've spoken to him directly. He has told me that, in his opinion, it's not a safety issue except at the intersections. That's why we have lights on our automobiles. That's primarily a pedestrian issue and an aesthetic issue. It's not a safety issue. So, I need to be convinced otherwise that it's really OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 47 a safety issue. And from what I can gather -- and I think that Commissioner $hannahan and I think we're all saying the same thing, but I've not understood that by turning off the street lighting where it's been turned off that we have created some type of a safety hazard. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: that. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: We're being accused of I understand that, and I think that's a misperception on the part of the public. You know, when you drive along 1-75, I don't see any street lights along 1-75. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: You don't see any pedestrians, either; and you don't see any bicycles, either. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: That's correct, Commissioner What I'm saying is it is primarily a pedestrian Shannahan. issue. COMMISSIONER SHANNAHAN: You know, we said earlier we had public outcry because of the Sheriff's deputies here. Because of lack of communication, we are being challenged right now. People are saying, "Turn the lights on and cut the budget." The two don't go together, and somebody has OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 48 to understand that. MR. DORRILL: That's my point. A: I think increasingly, you know, we are letting ourselves get in this trap where Rich King or Carl Loveday or John Lunsford or whoever it is that day are trying to drive a particular agenda in the community. And I heard a comment last week that the County Commissioners are all crooks and you can't trust them to do anything and that until somebody gets killed they're not going to turn the lights back on. And so, we have taken an effort to try to economize in a fund that is literally out of money this year and totally twisted the thing around now to where, you know, as opposed to this being a small element of an overall economy program for this year, the Commissioners are ending up now with a negative perception being portrayed through these call-in. talk shows and this kind of thing. And we can respond to that, but I don't think we can let that particular element of the community drive those agendas against us. They're going to have one of these things every week or every month and it's going to be them versus us and I think we need to be careful not to get into that trap with them. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 49 COMMISSIONER HASSE: I understand what you're saying, Mr. Dorrill; but we haven't any information to back up what we're talking about. It's not a hazard. figures. MR. DORRILL: You say it's -- no, it's not true. Well, get something for us. Get some It is a service, and I think the community has come to expect lighted arterial roadways. The primary safety element in addition to residential security, and there is a demonstrated security issue in residential areas that are lit and there's proven justification to that and there are proven abilities to need the light at intersections, but it is a service issue and we ought to address it as a service issue and one the community is willing to pay for, as opposed to being accused of trying to kill citizens of Naples, Florida, and being penny wise and pound foolish. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Dotrill, I think we are obligated to have this discussion at the Budget Hearing on the 18th; and at that time we might have Mr. Archibald distribute copies of the memorandum that he sent to me and apparently to other members of the Board concerning the fact that there is not a safety problem. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 5O But I've gotten phone calls, actually, from people in the community that I know that ar~ rather reasonable people and they have raised a concern about the corridor lights being turned off. Not the intersection lights, because they are on, but the corridor lights. And so, it's -- you know, we need to take a look at it. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Just one other observation for the benefit of my fellow Commissioners. As you drive along some of these major corridors, you notice that there'~ only street lights on one side of a four-lane divided highway. It's kind of interesting, and it's where there is a sidewalk. It is primarily for pedestrian safety and not for automobile safety. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Before I adjourn, I have to thank the Pelican Bay Advisory Board for having us out here tonight. As I said earlier, I don't think any of us wanted to be here at 6:30; but you can see with the show of Commissioners that are here tonight, we were very much concerned about what is going on in Pelican Bay. And we are here for you and we're -- we want you-all to keep in touch with us. Frances, was there something you wanted to add? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 51 FRANCES: Yes. I think it's wonderful of you-all to come and make the effort to come here to Pelican Bay. It's Good to see you in this setting. There are just a very few comments. I think there would have been very much more of a public representation here, had there been a notice in the paper. I responded. I'm here because I saw a notice in the paper which dates back, I think, about a month. Had there been a reminder in the newspaper or on the radio this past week, I'm sure you would have had many, many more interested people here. It's just a comment. COMMISSIONER HASSE: We had that on the budget, too, then. FRANCES: But you have a quarter of a million set aside. But the other comment that I think is -- and it's meant to be constructive as far as the lighting is concerned -- I think if people had the figures and the facts, there wouldn't be this kind of characterization Going back and forth. be okay. That's it. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Just facts and figures, and it will The meeting i~ adjourned. (The meeting was concluded) OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 52 STATE OF FLORIDA ) COUNTY OF COLLIER ) I, Jeffrey W. Marquardt, Deputy Official Court Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing meeting were taken before me at the date and place as stated in the caption hereto at Page 1 hereof; that the foregoing computer-aided transcription, consisting of pages numbered 1 through 51, inclusive, is a true record of my Stenograph notes taken at said meeting. Dated this 24th day of September, 1991. Jeffrey w. Marquardt Deputy Official Court Reporter 20th Judicial Circuit OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 IIIII I Ill IIIII I I IIII II I lU h~11~i..~ ***** ~J~i" There being no further business for the Good of the County, the /.~!.-imeeting w~s adjourned by Order of the Chair - Time: 7:45 P.M. ~:~;!~:,i . BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS ~//%~ o~c~o sow~s ~o~o(s) o~ ~j~:: 3;~/. SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS {/5~ CONTROL ':~-: ',~l "' .h",- ~ATRICIA ANNE G6-~NI~T, CHAIRMAN "" "~ S~':'minu~ approved by the Board on ...' f~ ':pr. eSen'ted ,~ or as corrected '~:,.'.."- ~, .