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BCC Minutes 12/09/1993 SORIGINAL BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS PUBLIC HEARING ~ December 9, 1993 5:05 p.m. /~4~/~j Collier County Courthouse ~--~ Building F Third Floor Boardroom Reported by: Barbara Lynn Rouse Deputy Official Court Reporter Notary Public State of Florida at Large TELE: OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Carrothers Reporting Service, Inc. 20th Judicial Circuit - Collier County 3301 East Tamiami Trail Naples, Florida 33962 (813) 732-2700 FAX: (813) 774-6022 APPEARANCES COMMISSIONERS: Burt Saunders, Chairman John C. Norris, Commissioner Timothy J. Constantine, Commissioner Bettye L. Matthews, Commissioner Michael J. Volpe, Commissioner STAFF: Martha Howell, County Attorney Kenneth Cuyler, County Attorney Neil Dorrill, County Manager Dick Clark - Development Services Administrator Kenneth Baginskt - Planning Services Manager John Magewski, Private Review Services Manager PROCEEDINGS COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Ladies and gentlemen, the meeting of the county commission will please come to order. This is the second and final public hearing on the proposed amendments to the land development code. We have three areas that need to be addressed this evening. Mr. Blanchard, if you would come forward. The first thing -- we would like to do the St. Matthew's House issue first, because obviously everybody is here in that respect, but we have one staff member who has an illness at home and we want to get that issue resolved so he can be with his wife. So Mr. Blanchard, why don't we jump into the rural subdivision issues first. And secondly, Just before we do that, we had several issues that we discussed at the first LDC meeting that were non-contraversial. We have a half a dozen members of staff here. If there are no changes to what we did a few weeks ago in those areas, then w~ would simply acknowledge that we will approve those and we can send those staff members home. Mr. Blanchard will walk OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 us through those. MR. BLANCHARD: Just for the record, Mr. Saunders, it was my intent to walk you through them but to let you know that the changes that were made were under specific direction from the Board. Unless there are any questions on those or any testimony from the audience on what you all agreed to last time, my recommendation is just to go straight into the rural subdivision issue. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak on issues that are not -- that are associated only with the issues that are not the rural subdivision and not the St. Matthew's House issue? All right. Are there any changes that the commission wants to consider to what we did on those issues a few weeks ago? If not, then we'll go straight into the rural subdivision issue. Mr. Magewski. MR. MAGEWSKI: Good evening, commissioners. For the record, John Magewski, Private Review Services Manager. We had three small changes, the side sheets you directed us to do, page 14 of your package -- on your -- what's labeled as Exhibit A, the larger OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 package. There was a simple change in the proper citation of the division. That was under section 3271-21. The next changes were minor changes on pages 15 and 16 of the package to section 357-25. There was some typographical changes, and at the request of Barbara Culley, information was added in the area of removal of species in these literal zones using EPA approved chemicals. The third one was on page 17, 3579 which created a process to deal with insubstantial changes to excuvation permits without the need to have a formal approval before undertaking them. The only other one was the rural subdivision regulation which is a separate scoresheet package that I handed out to everyone. There are copies on the table. We have coordinated this with the county attovney's office. Robert Dewayne, who has been the chief individual from the private sector, is here and has been provided with a copy. The basic context of that creates a definition of rural subdivision which follows the Board's direction, which will allow the creation of OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 6 private easements without the need for platting. The definition is directly tied to an exemption clause in seotion 324(11) (1) which says if you meet this definition, you are not required to file a plat or file the subdivision regulations. 324(11) (2) provides a notice that would go on the deeds regarding the nature of these private roads with no involvement from the county. And the last section is 324(11) (3). That one actually deals with the building permit process and how you would deal with the access to your property. There is an access agreement that has been established, which everybody seems to be comfortable with. There is only one question I would ask for some direction from the Board on under 324(11) (3) Subparagraph B. We've laid out three options on how the access would be done. A) Would be they would Just physically clear it an~=~ drive on the open native ground. C~ C) Would be an asphalt road. ~ B) Is the one where I would like to get some ~. direction from the Board. Drives things of this nature in other areas of the county by your zoning ordinance are required to be dustless. The only two feasible materials OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 '3 that we've ever dealt with are crush stone which are kind of expensive. Due the nature of the rural area of the county and the low density, the propensity of lime rock roads to date, we would recommend that the word dustless be removed and allow for lime rock surface knowing that there is going to be some dust with it. It should not be -- COMNISSIONER SAUNDERS: Is there any objection for the removal of the word dustless? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. MaJewski, would it make more sense to maybe include lime rock surfaces in the definitions of dustless? MR. MAJEWSKI: Well, they won't be, that's the problem, unless they are wetted or sealed. They will at certain times of the year be. We are trying to look at it that one unit per five acres -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We're trying to get to the problem of determining what types of materials -- COMMISSIONER NORRIS: My point was that if we say lime rock roads you can't do shell. MR. MAJEWSKI: Then what I would suggest would be a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 8 a fourth Category D and Just indicte lime rock surface a minimum of 24 feet. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Fine. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, but we'll still take out the word dustless? MR. MAJEWSKI: No, I would leave that as an option if they wanted to do it. Any of these four would be all right. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Any objection to that from the Commission? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: What can't they do? MR. MAJEWSKI: That's really all your options. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: That's the point. If you say -- I guess within the subdivision you're Just suggesting that there isn't any requirement that the surface be paved. MR. MAJEWSKI: That's correct. We Just wanted to afford everybody because the process that we have here is directed. There will no review of this by the county. The county will not review the road as to how they put it down, to what grade that would come under under any of the other state or federal permits based on the area. C' OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 They will not have a duplication of the review efforts. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I understand. Just in terms of draftmanship, I'm simply saying to you they can do anything, but there's no requirement that it be a paved road, which would be a requirement in the perminary. MR. MAJEWSKI= Yes, correct. Then again, that's why we wanted to add it in. We just felt it would be good that people would basically see Just that you can really do anything you desire because you will maintain it, you will own it. It will not be the county's responsibility. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Again, is there any objection from the Commission for putting that wording as Mr. MaJewski has outlined? Mr. Dewayne, could you come up Just for a moment. You spearheaded some of the -- MR. DEWAYNE: There's no objection. I'm in agreement. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: and our staff for working together to get these regulations to the point where they are. I would like to thank you C' Is there anyone else in the audience who wants to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 10 speak on the rural subdivision issues only? All right. The consensus of the Board is that these regulations are acceptable· Mr. MaJewski, you can go on home. MR. MAJEWSKI: Thank you. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: That leaves us with the sole issue of the amendments involving the soup kitchens and homeless shelters· Obviously we have an awful lot of people here. I'm not sure how many are going to want to speak. We'll give everybody an opportunity to, but we have to limit the amount of time that our speakers are speaking. We would like to limit that to three to five minutes. Five minutes at an absolute maximum. We'll have to hold you to that. You can well imagine that we could be here for many, many hours if everybody spoke for as long as they C wanted to Who in our staff is going to be handling this; Mr.C~' Baginski? MR. BAGINSKI: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Board, I believe that Miss Nebleseck has handed out some change in the language based on -- on those particular items on OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 conversations or hearing or discussion before the Planning Commission this morning. And I would advise the Board of County Commissioners that at their scheduled meeting today the Planning Commission did recommend to the Board of County Commissioners that modifications to the original or amended language be proposed that would allow homeless shelters and soup kitchens as permitted uses within the C-3, C-4 and C-5 districts, but would require these to be conditional uses within the C-1 and C-2 districts. They proved that -- Martha, was that by about a five to one vote or was that unanimous? MS. HOWELL: That was unanimous. MR. BAGINSKI: That was a unanimous vote. And they also have requested that we suggest or provide the CD recommendation to the Board of County Commissioners that in any regard as to what the final decision and outcome by the Board was, that exemptions be granted ro the St. Matthew's Home to allow the continued construction and occupancy of their structure at their proposed location. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. Are there any questions of Mr. Baginski from the County Commission? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. Baginski, this is a recap OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 12 Of the County Commission -- excuse me -- the Planning Commission meeting this morning. And according to this sheet, there was no change to their earlier recommendation concerning soup kitchens, only a different recommendation concerning homeless shelters. Could you clarify that, please? MS. HOWELL: Are you looking at the part -- larger packet that says Exhibit A on the front? There's four pages. The first four pages of that packet, I believe Exhibit A, describe the activity that the Planning Commission took. And, in fact, what they did about the prior approval of the soup kitchen proposal, I understood that they would withdraw their approval and substitute their actions in lieu of that. And you'll see why the changes are inconsistent, so they had to go with one or the other. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: That's stated here in this recap, but it's my understanding that that was not part of the motion to do. That the motion did not address soup kitchens. MS. LANE: Commission. Leigh Lane representing the Planning OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 13 the motion to soup kitchens and -- (Audience boos) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Ladies and gentlemen, one thing we're going to have to do is maintain the decorum in the room. Everybody will be given an opportunity to speak. When you're at the microphone you're not going to want anybody booing and that sort of thing while you're speaking. So I'm going to ask you to please be patient and be courteous to the speakers. Ms. Lane. MS. LANE: The motion was made to have homeless shelters leave that definition within care unit. Not change that definition and to make soup kitchens and homeless shelters conditional uses within the C-1, C-IT and C-2 and principal uses in 3, 4 and 5. And the reasoning for that is that that would make it seem inconsistent if you make a soup kitchen as a conditional use on all homeless shelters and permitted in others because they're basically the same. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Wasn't there a representative of the county attorney's office at the Planning Commission meeting? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 14 MS. LANE: Yes, martha was there. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: MS. Howell, if you would verify, for the benefit of the audience, what Ms. Lane has said in terms of the motion that was made, if you recall, in terms of the the actual action that was taken by the Planning Commission. MS. HOWELL: They adopted the language as you see it in that packet. They didn't -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: What packet now? MS. HOWELL: It says, Exhibit A. There are -- the first four pages pertain to the Planning CommSssion action this morning. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Why don't you go through each one of those and tell us precisely -- tell the audience precisely what the Planning Commission did, evenO if it takes a few minutes to go through the package. MS. HOWELL: Okay. The first motion the Planning Commission recommended that the Board does not adopt -- C~. this is essentially the larger motion -- that the Board does not adopt the LDC amendment proposing to modify the definition of care unit. And that modification is removing homeless shelter from the definition. So the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 15 CCPC recommendation is that the definition remain as it is with homeless shelter. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. MS. HOWELL: Then they made a motion that rather than removing care unit from the permitted use list in the C-1 and C-2 zoning district, that care units be allowed as permitted uses except for homeless shelters and soup kitchens. So that's on the second page of your packet. There are additional packets outside if anyone wants one. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So that means that homeless shelters and soup kitchens will be permitted uses in the MS. HOWELL: No. Care units, which include the definition of homeless shelter, are permitted uses as they recommended in C-1 and C-2. Care units except for homeless shelters and soup kitchens. Then as part of that -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: uses -- MS. MOWELL: those two districts. They would be conditional They would be conditional uses in Then in the C-3, C-4 -- the third OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 16 side sheet is representative of this part of the motion -- in the C-3, C-4 and C-5 districts it remains as it is. Care units including homeless shelters are permitted uses. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. MS. HOWELL: They didn't formally withdraw their approval as part of the motion, but the two actions are legally inconsistent. So the second action is going to prevail. What they took action on today is inconsistent with what they did before. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Right. Ms. Lane, is there anything else you want to add? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Which was? I'm sorry, Miss Howell. MS. HOWELL: They approved the proposed soup kitchen amendment that was presented to them in October or at their October 28th hearing. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Which would make soup kitchenC. conditional uses -- a conditional use in all C-1, C-iT, C-2, C-3 and C-47 MS. HOWELL: Correct. And C-5. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: And C-5. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 17 MS. HOWELL: Right. Today they made it so that in C-1 and C-2 they are conditional uses and in C-3, C-4 and C-5 they are by permitted use. So that action would be inconsistent with the previous action of that Board. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So they took a separate vote on the issue of soup kitchens? MS. HOWELL: No, they did not. We're dealing with the homeless shelter language that was presented to them that they had not seen before. And as part of the motion they addressed both homeless shelters and soup kitchens, and that action is inconsistent with their previous action. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Just a couple questions. I want to make sure I understand because -- and the wording here may not be exactly -- but I didn't see soup kitchens in the motion this morning. Maybe it was, but because they voted today, even though they did withdraw the prior vote, you're suggesting that this overrules the prior vote? MS. HOWELL: Yes. CO~4ISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Just out of curiosity, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 18 4 how many members of the Commission were there today? MS. HOWELL: Six of nine. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: How many were there back when this first went through? MS. LANE: With the soup kitchens? ~'~=,%- COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Yes. ~;,~. MS. HOWELL: Eight or nine. ¥- COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I guess I'm Just a little hesitant to have a group of six overrule a group of nine. MS. LANE: There was one descending vote with the soup kitchens in the previous, and that was Mr. Thomas. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Perhaps we need to get beyond the Planning Commission. t e Mr. Cuyler, h Planning Commission recommendation C to this advisory, this Board can accept or reject or modify it. So from a legal standpoint in terms of the action we take this evening, does it make any difference that there was one vote taken by the Planning Commission and then a few weeks later a second vote taken? I would presume it makes no difference. MR. CUYLER: That's not a legally binding decision. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 19 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Miss Lane, anything else? MS. LANE: I think Just to clarify how we reached the decision that we did, the original motion was for denial of the -- a recommendation of denial of the amendment. Because there are other uses within that definition of care unit such as substance abuse care centers, halfway houses, which were not going to be taken out which to some of us seemed more profound to a neighborhood then those did, it did not make sense to us to take out homeless and leave those in. Plu~ the fact Mr. Baginski went through the different zoning districts with us. After you get past the C-2 district then you start -- C-3 and C-4 allowed jails. You know, a jail could go. We didn't get specific about St. Matthew's House, but a Jail could go on that corner but a homelessC~ shelter could not. It just did not seem consistent to make that recommendation and leave those as permitted uses but not homeless shelters. (Audience boos) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Ladies and gentlemen, please. Are there any questions for our staff or for Ms. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 2O Lane in terms of the proposed amendments? COMMISSIONER VOLPE| I have a question for the legal staff. As it relates to care facilities, isn't there state legislation that essentially requires that care facilities can be located in any zoning district? MS. HOWELL: Miss Student has done the research on that when the issue has come up before. My conversations with her I understand that that's limited to group one and group two, the convalescent facilities and other kinds of facilities like that. MR. CUYLER: The answer is yes. For certain types of facilities the statute indicates that it's basically taken away some of the Board's zoning powers. But that's not what we're dealing with today. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I Just wanted to try to explain to myself what Miss Lane was saying that there were certain types of group care facilities that were perhaps neighborhood issues and that it was that logic that resulted in the decision of the Planning Commission. But when you mentioned about some treatment centers, those are not then the types of care facilities that are permitted in any zoning district. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 MS. LANE: No. The definition includes group one and group two and then it adds additional uses such as substance abuse, which are in addition to those required uses that we have to place there. COMI~ISSIONER VOLPE: Okay. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We obviously have a number of people that are interested in speaking on this issue. I would suggest that we go ahead and hear the public comment. Yes, sir. MR. BAGINSKI: If I may, sir, at the direction of the Board of County Commissioners during our last meeting -- the handout that you received I think is Just three pages that also addresses soup kitchens -- but at the direction of the Board we have added additional language, another little sentence, a trailor, if you will, onto the definition of soup kitchen which would provide for basically vest soup kitchens that were currently in existence at the time of the adoption of this ordinance. That was at the direction of the Board. And we did modify the definition of a soup kitchen as provided to you. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 22 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you. Why don't we go to the public comment. What i would like to do is have one speaker at the podium speaking and the next follow-up speaker to be right behind that speaker so we can move these along -- speakers along as quickly as possible. Mr. Dorrill. MR. DORRILL: Mr Chairman, our first speaker will be Mr. Durbishire, George Durbishire. And if I could have Charles S. Smith stand by, please. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Good evening. MR. DURBISHIRE: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, a few weeks ago we spoke at the first meeting of this development, land development code change. Glades Country Club owners, taxpayers were and continue to support the necessary changes. We most definitely oppose the relocation of St. Matthew's House Soup KitcheW: to be located in the Glades Boulevard/Airport Road directly at the entrance to our country club. The owners, taxpayers are very incense to the extent that we delivered 1026 petitions yesterday to the Chairman and we hope that you will adopt amendments to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 23 the county development code and deny St. Matthew's House the building on the proposed site. Thank you. (Audience applauds) COM){ISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Smith. Ladies and gentlemen, again, I hate to have too many rules here but I would ask that you not applaud in between the speakers and that will help us move things along. It's not effective in promoting your position. We understand where everybody's from here. Who's following Mr. Smith? MR. DORRILL: Mr. Chairman, we'll have John -- I believe it's Nours, N-O-U-R-S. MR. SMITH: Commissioners, my name is Charles Smith, 472 Glades Boulevard. And the people of the Glades, by the hundreds, have spoken eloquently and emphatically in denouncing a soup kitchen on their doorstep. We've been labeled, strained voices. If our voices are raised in defense of our homes and piece of mind, so be it. This issue has been camouflaged repeatedly. Only last Sunday did the official report of the land sale OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 24 appear in the Naples Daily News. I am greatly disturbed by the sanctimonious attitudes being di~played by officials and members of the press in the very volatile St. Matthew's location dispute. I guess it all goes back to the old saying, it all depends on whose ox is being gord. The press has challenged the integrity -- our integrity. And naturally the integrity of those backing a zoning ordinance that is dead wrong should be questioned. With us it isn't a matter of nymvy. Not in my back yard, but more afterly nymphy. Not in my front yard. If the present C-4 zoning is allowed to stand, it will create an open wound in our community. That wound will fester and fester with each of the virgining crime reports in East Naples. Undeservedly or not, the weight of this will fall on theC~' shoulders of your body. With more than a thousand signatures on our petition we repeat, we do not want a soup kitchen on our doorstep. I defy the good people in their ivory towers to stop to show a better record of volunteering and caring then the good people of the Glades. Thank you. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 25 (Audience applauds) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Again, please. Who's following Mr. Nours? MR. DORRILL: Following Mr. Nours, Mr. Chairman, we'll have Butt Conicky. MR.CONICKY: Mr. Chairman, thank you for allowing me the privilege to speak. My name is John C. Nours. phonetically we sound the same. No relation, Just I am a director and officer of the thousand member Marco Island taxpayer's association. Now, we speak not here based on an issue of St. Matthew's house or anything else. We're talking about the conditional use concept, which we believe strongly, and was as proposed by Commissioner Norris. And he gav~=~ a much better explanation then I would in the December 1st Marco Island Eagle. He described the need for this C l) amendment so we can be fair to all. We believe that the proposal provides the most democratic approach, and that all parties including the neighborhoods and the communities both positive and negative can be heard. We think that's the most OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 26 important part of it. on merit. It's an added protection for all of us. We feel it's the right thing to do and your consideration is appreciated. Thank you very much. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you. Following Mr. Conicky we'll have MR. DORRILL: Louis Sicar. MR. COHINCKY: Then decisions can be made based Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Burt Conicky. I've been part of the Glades since 1976 and I would like, please, to address my talk this evening, if you will permit, to the approval of the amendements to the land development code and for the disapproval for the construction of the facility on the site where it has already been reasonably prepared. C~ I would like to begin my talk by Just these few C)' words, Mr. Chairman, that in your hands and in the hands(=) 4~- of you, young lady, and you, gentlemen, stands and holdsO. the future of the lifestyle and the comfort of the hundreds and thousands of people that belong to the Glades and its environment. Hardly any community that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 27 you could put your finger on has anybody anymore been privileged to have a facility on lands that is contiguous with residential areas. Now, there are several thousand people that live in the Glades that have lived there for some 20, 25 years. St. Matthew's House, God love them all, they've done a beautiful Job. We're proud of Reverend Lindell. We're proud of Reverend Collins. I would like to say that Pastor Collins is my pastor and I love him as well as anybody in the congregation loves him. But you see, it does not appear, gentlemen and lady, that this has been thought out by the officials of the St. Matthew's house. If so, they have not spoken or realized the impact that this change would make on the lifestyle of the people that live there now. So this is a hard thing and a very important decision for you people to make. We realize, of course, that St. Matthew's people, God love them all, and Reverend Lindell -- I got a communication from him Just recently where he thanked me for a contribution. He put in the one part of the paragraph that since they opened up they have had 315,000 meals. That's great. Boy, I OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 28 tell you, that's real service of the people of the community at six cents a meal. That's quite hard to do, but he's done it because he said so. Okay. So we need him. We know all the people that work for the St. Matthew's House. But the location, you see, they have not given any consideration to the impact that the people would have because of this installation and that location. You might say right away, well, what happened? We paid all of that money for this land. That's great, but please give consideration to the millions and millions and the millions of the dollars that some two thousand plus people of the Glades have spent already for the kind of lifestyle they want and they have been able CD to enjoy. ~-~ So gee, what a wonderful opportunity it is for youC~ people and what a wonderful opportunity also to respond, to give us the kind of -- I guess consideration is what I mean to say -- in the future as has been given to the people who are approved. Now, one thing I would like to make mention of, I know this evening here there are many many people here OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 29 that are going to say -- they are going to stand up and they are going to approve, of course, all these things for St. Matthew's. But I would venture an opinion, right here now, that 90 percent or plus of the people make this approval do not live within four, five or six miles from these things. (Applause) So these things are easy to handle, but depends on who is looking at what. We want St. Matthew's. I will continue to support it financially if the Lord continues to let me be able to do it. But, please in your good manner give the consideration that we need. Now, where will we move if we don't open up here. This is easy, you see. This is the question that would be asked. We have dozens of qualified and capable real estate people within the bounds of this county that are Just great wonderful people who already got the land for probably a lot less money and more land, you see, where they could move and it wouldn't be any problem at all, without any question. And then the question might be posed well, how are we going to get these people to that location. If we take a poll today of all the people that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 3O come to St. Matthew's House you will probably find them, and God thank them all, from Chicago, New York, Baltimore, St. Petersburg, so on and so forth and they'll be there. Now, with the installation of this building on this proposed property, where all of the food is free and where all of the clothing is free and all of the showers are free, where you can only sleep 84, where do the rest of the people sleep. A~d it would be elementary to think and to feel, of course, that all of those people would get these things free would live as closely as possible to the facility where they're able to get them. God love them all. I sincerely hope, Mr. Chairman, that you will give your fine consideration to our request and our -- give usC~' the support that we nee~ so that we can continue to have the kind of lifestyle that we have enjoyed over all these~_~.~ years. Thank very much. Merry Christmas to you all and God bless you. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Who's following Mr. Sicard? ~R. DORRILL: Following Mr. Sicard we'll have Hugh OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 31 Kinsay. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: If you would please maintain some decorum in the room we'll get through a lot more quickly. Who is following Mr. Sicard? MR. DORRILL: If I could have Mr. Kinsey, Hugh Kinsey, stand by, please. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Kinsey. MR. SICARD: Thank you Mr. Chairman and fellow commissioners. My name is Louis Sicard. I reside at 205 Quail Nest Road here in Naples, and I'm presently the director of the Glades Country Club Apartments Association, Incorporated. I'm here tonight to speak on the proposed St. Matthew's project at the entrance to Glades Boulevard. Gentlemen and ladies, it is ~mparative that all Glades residents respond with a massive petition drive against this location change. This hobo Jungle has been allowed~-~ to flourish on the doorstep of our residents since the birth of St. Matthew's House at its present location. It has become a health and safety hazard which will OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 7 32 intensify if the present unfair zoning is allowed to remain. We have seen addicts camping on our doorsteps. Therefore, is it any wonder that our residents worry about health and safety factors. Why hasn't the media chosen to print photos of open latrines and bottle strewn campsites with fires that have covered our community in a pole of smoke. What a cheap shot the Naples Daily News editorial of November 19 took on our Collier County Commissioner here, John Norris. Their condemnation of Commissioner Norris on the editorial page was uncalled for and outrageous. Commissioner Norris deserves the praise of East Naples voters and certainly, certainly does not deserve the criticism from the Naples Daily News just because he was foresighted into looking into improving the image of all of the East Naples, Collier County. In our eyes, in our eyes in the Glades he is not nymby John who should keep his eyes closed so that all the boogie men will go away. In our eyes he is big John, a strong and true leader. Thank you Mr. Norris. Our president of the Glades Country Club Apartments OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 33 Association, Mr. George Durbishire, has expressed his thoughts repeatedly of the fact that all large organizations are happy to donate to the soup kitchen as long, as long as it's not in their neighborhood. There's plenty of land located in more rural parts of the county that could have been purchased for considerably less than $450,000. Why we ask should they choose this expensive track of land which is located at the entrance to Glades Boulevard on Airport Pulling Road among well kept residents of the Glades Country Club. This very special retirement community has been in this location, ladies and gentlemen, for over twenty years. Property values have increased over this time on this 270 acre site, which our homes to one thousand -- one thousand two hundred and fifty-three taxpayers. We must=} defend our beautiful community's way of life. ¢2} As you were told, we've collected over one thousa~ signatures and protests to the St. Matthew's House ~=1~- proposal. It is important that all commissioners, for all of you, to please change this zoning and protect our residential subdivisions. Thank you. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 34 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: MR. DORRILL: DeJohn. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Kinsey. Following Mr. Kinsey I have Brenda Mr. Kinsey. MR. KINSEY: Mr. Chairman, my name is Hugh Kinsey. I represent A1 Gallman. Mr. Gallman is the owner of a 40 acre commercial and residential track immediately to the south of the proposed site of St. Matthew's House. And he would like to recognize his opposition to placement of St. Matthew's House at that site. This is a very high impact use. If you have any questions of whether it's a high impact use, you should ask the owners of vacant property that are around the present St. Matthew's House. Owners of this property have all incurred economic liability as a result of vagrants camping on their property and then the owners having to go back and pay for the clean up of these sites. A conditional designation in the C-3, C-4 and C-5 areas will allow the Board discretion in determining the placement of these institutions and would in turn minimize their impact. However, should the Board allow OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 35 the placement of St. Matthew's House and allow the permitted use of C-3, C-4 and C-5 there are certain issues that I feel should be addressed here so the Board can understand the concerns of the vacant landowners. As I said, the vagrants have used and continue to use property like my client's; vacant property, wooded property as illegal campsites. These campsites are obviously chosen due to their proximity to the St. Matthew's House and where it currently is and will continue to be chosen by the vagrants because of the proximity of the new St. Matthew's House. The sites are left in deplorable condition and the landowner receives code violations because of these conditions that they are left in. Conditions over which the landowner has no control. Landowners are then required to incur substantial expense for having these violations corrected. In the past year, Mr. Gallman has incurred over $40,000 in property taxes on his parsel, yet has been cited twice for violations. One citation is currently pending. The last one was in June. It's been the past position of Collier County that the clean up of these cites has been a property owner's OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 36 problem. It has not been a county problem. It has not been a St. Matthew's problem. The county doesn't share in the economic burden of the remedy. It doesn't offer sufficient protection to eliminate the ongoing burden. And St. Matthew's House also takes no control of controlling the vagrants on these sites. By allowing the conditional use on the C-3 and C-4 and C-5 they'll be Just encouraging this continued use. If Collier County is going to allow this use, then Collier County -- it's time for Collier County to recognize it's contribution to the problems that are intended with this use. Rather than to simply call it a land owner problem, I think it's time for the county to invest some money and some effort into making the soup kitchens and homeless shelters not only consistent with zoning plan, but compatible with their neighbors. And until Collier County takes a stance, an active stance, as opposed to reactire stance this problem will not only continue but it will grow in Collier County. I appreciate your consideration of my client's concerns. (Audience applauds) OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 37 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: DeJohn? MR. DORRILL: Carpenter. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Who is following Brenda I have, I believe, it's David Yes, ma'am. MS. DEJOHN: I am Brenda DeJohn and I live at 4801 Tenth Avenue Southwest. I'm the chairman of the Collier County Homeless Advisory Committee. (Audience boos) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Ladies and gentlemen, we're not going to permit people to yell at speakers from the audience. That's just not going to be permitted. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We can't hear her. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I understand. Miss DeJohn, if you would speak louder, please. MS. DEJOHN: I'm the chairman of the Homeless Advisory Committe of Collier County. On Monday we voted that I would speak on behalf of the Homeless Advisory Committee. We feel that the Planning Commission's recommendation today is fair to all those concerned and we feel the conditional use in all commercial zones would OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 38 be unfair. To single out soup kitchens and homeless shelters among the required businesses places an additional burden on nonprofit service proriders of this county. There are many businesses that are certainly detrimental to the community that do not have the same requirements, such as liquor stores, bars and Just anything that you might not want in your community. We believe that this action is only due to the nymvism and can be perceived as discrimination against a social class of people. We should encourage nonprofit service proriders who are taking the problems that our county government would have to deal with if they were not there. The residents of one community should not have the power to prevent the benevolence of so many of the citizens in this county. (Audience boos) (Audience applauds) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: David Carpenter. MR. DORRILL: Reynolds. MR. CARPENTER: Following Mr. Carpenter I have Gordan I would like to thank the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 39 commission for allowing me to speak. I think we have proved tonight by the crowd that the issue of soup kitchens is certainly controversial. And the provisions should be made for the county commission to handle controversial land issues. That's why we have talked about conditional uses to handle Just these types of issues. Now, it's a shame really that the people from St. Matthew's House and the Glades are here tonight, because where they should be is at a county commission meeting, at the county commission meeting considering a conditional use application by St. Matthew's House. And I think that's what needs to be changed. This type of a land development code amendment hearing really isn't theO O vehicle to wrestle with whether that site at Glades and Airport is the best site. The proper vehicle to deal with that is a full commission sitting, sitting with staff reports, sitting with figures and reviewing that site on a logical, technical basis. However, because of a flawed land development code, this is the only vehicle, the only forum that these people from the Glades have. Were it not for the timing of this land development code OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 I/ 4O amendment hearing, St. Matthew's House would sail through with zero chance for the people in the neighborhood to express their opinions of it. Now, this goes beyond St. Matthew's House because this t~pe of development could happen in any area. This county government needs to take a look at controversial land issues; be a snake farm or be it a soup kitchen. And that'e what your vote is going to be tonight. Now, you can take the politically correct way out and Jeff and Colleen at the Daily News would be happy. And that would be to say, well, we're going to pass this tonight and we're going to make soup kitchens a conditional use but we're going to let St. Matthew's House move on up there at Glades and Airport. We're going to wash our hands of that situation and we're not going to confront it at the county commission. You know, we elect you guys to make the tough ~-~ decisions. What we're asking for you to do tonight is go ahead and declare it a conditional use and when it comes before the county commission in that forum, go ahead then and make the tough decisions, but make them in public, make them in the open and show the honor of this OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 41 commission rather than washing your hands and trying to duck behind some legal technicalities to dodge the issue. And that's what's before you tonight. Thank you. MR. DORRILL: Mr. Reynolds and then following Mr. Reynolds I have Norman Ritz. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Reynolds. MR. REYNOLDS: I'm Gordan Reynolds. I own property on Palm Drive in the Glades and I rise in support of Commissioner Norris' amendment. The very fact that we will have, if it is not passed, soup kitchens and homeless shelters on the corner of our street within 50 yards of many of our elderly widows who are already frightened without having this C soup kitchen and the homeless unit there. ~ I personally have donated more time and more money C. than probably a good many of the people sitting here who~F are supporting this. Most of my life I have committed myself to doing the things that need to be done for the homeless, the retarded such as special olympics, halfway houses. But I have never seen anything that comes close to putting a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen in a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 9 42 residential area that has been established for those of us who have lived our lives trying to do good things and we have paid our dues, and now you put it there. I can't understand why it would reach this point. As Dave Carpenter said, it's a subject for the county commission, apparently, not a small group. I have worked in a soup kitchen. I have done it in the christian center in Pittsfield, Massachusetts. I can assure you, gentlemen, that this is a magnet for addicts. Quoting Reverend Collins, "They're addicts", either drug or alcoholics. And this is a magnet for them. They may be going on the right path. They will be cured, many of them but the next group that comes in are the drug pushers. I have seen that, too. And I don't want it on my doorstep and I don't want the people that have paid the dues in their lifetime to be saddled with it. Thank you. MR. DORRILL: Following Mr. Ritz we have E.M. Sprassaman. MR. RITZ: Mr. Chairman, commissioners, my name is Norman Ritz. I'm an eight and a half year semi-retired permanent resident of Naples Sunrise Condo Association OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 43 located in the Glades Country Club. Together we total some 1253 people. During this time I have seen many changes to the entrance of the Glades Country Club. We now have a very large Wal-Mart on the south entrance and anticipate heavy traffic through our Glades in an entrance an exit to the east from this Collier County complex and to the west the proposed woods people's soup kitchen facility. I strongly object to the latter. Please give us a break. We have enough people now standing on corners with signs saying, we'll work for food. I understand compassion and loving. We need compassion, too. Those who would provide this expanded soup kitchen facility do not live in the adjacent surrounding areas. That after volunteering their time and efforts go to their own private residence some miles(=) away. We remain to bear the brunt of this type of operation. We know the results of the activities of the present St. Matthew's facility. They have been mentioned here tonight. Does an established 21 year old retirement community have any saying as to whom their neighbors will OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 44 be? Recent surveys through the United States shows these kind of soup kitchen facilities are better established in industrial complexes away from residential areas of families, children and schools. In last week's December 6th Time Magazine their survey revealed communities are resisting this type of intrusion into their communities. Also, contributions this past Thanksgiving in the U.S. were down as much as 40 percent to these shelters. Does this indicate that in the future support contributions will have to come from county government and the local taxpayers? Again, I object to this expansion on the proposed Glades Boulevard and Airport Road corner. Thank you. MR. DORRILL: Mr. Sprassman and following Mr. Sprassman I have Nick Gilcheck. MR. SPRASSMAN: Mr. Chairman and Members of the Board, I have been living in the Glades now for the past 20 years. I'm a taxpayer. I happen to have my tax bill right here with me. And my home there is assessed at $101,000. My tax bill was $1531 Just recently. While we in the Glades Country Club Apartment OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 45 Association appreciate what St. Matthew's are doing, we feel that their choice of location is not appreciated. There are 1253 homes in the Glades, which does not take into consideration the Winter Park, Lake Wood or Sunrise I and Sunrise III. Those are additional condominiums within the area abutting the Glades Country Club Association. The total market value of these homes is presently in the neighborhood of $110,700,000. And incidentally, our buildings are insured at the present time in excess of $100,000,000. The estimated assessed value is $67,815,000,500. And based on the advalorum tax at 15.0855 mils, the county collects approximately $1,017,232 from these homeowners in the Glades. The realitors tell us that if this venture of a St. Matthew's House is permitted to operate adjacent to our property, our property values will drop at least ten percent. And based on the advalorum tax system, taxes for the county should be reduced by approximately $100,000. In other words, the county is going to be assessed $100,000 if this thing goes through. We therefore ask that you give careful consideration to the effect this will have on our OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 46 community and the county in general. Thank you. MR. DORRILL: Gilcheck. Mr. Goodlette. MR. GILCHECK: Following Mr. Gilcheck is My name is Nick Gilcheck. I live on 101 Winter Green Way in the Glades. It's a wonderful lovely community. I've lived up north and I've lived down here. I'm sorry I haven't spent my whole life down here because it's beautiful. Now, we have the problem of the hobos coming into our section. Fifty years ago that's all these people were, hobos. They come down here for the winter and up to Cape Cod for the summer. We worked hard for what we got here and we want to enjoy our place in the sun. We don't want them people coming down here to spunge on our CD community. C~ From the last I've read, there are some two thousand homeless people in Collier County. Now, you're going to build this facility for them. Word gets around, next year we'll have four thousand people here because we have a handout to feed them. We work for what we have. Why don't they work? There's many young people there. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 47 What do they do, they go to work for one or two days and this outfit that hires temporary help -- they work one or two days, they get a case of beer and a bag of wine and they go into the woods. There's no toilet facilities there. Where do they urinate? Where do they do anything? It's all back there. They start fires. Our fire department has to come out and put those fires out. Our sheriff doesn't do nothing about. Mr. Gallman, he has to go and clean up that mess. And I would like you people to some day get the sheriff to go down there with you, because you need protection, and walk through there and see what a mess that is. You can't believe how terrible it is. Bottles, beer cans everything all over the place. The sheriff doesn't see that. He looks the other way. has to pay to get his grounds cleaned up. commission do we have that permits this? sheriff permitted to overlook this thing? Mr. Gallman What kind of a Why is the Road. looks the other way. this thing to go on? Now, there's no trespassing signs all along Airport' Does our sheriff do anything about it? No, he How long are we going to permit To begin with, St. Matthew's House OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 48 hasn't been very saintly in the past, If you recall a few years back they were breaking all kinds of zoning violations doing any da=n thing they wanted to do and they were reprimanded by you commissioners or commissioners that were there before you on many occasions because they were breaking all of our rules. Now, we don't want to tolerate that anymore. And Mr. Norris, I want to commend you for being a good representative of your constituents. You're doing a good job, and if you ever run again you're going to be elected again. I'll be working for you. (Audience applauds) MR. DORRILL: Following Mr. Goodlette I have Erma, I believe, it's Dauber or Pauper. MR. GOODLETTE: Mr. Chairman, members of the commission, my name is Dudley Goodlette. I'm with the C:~ lawfirm of Cummings and Lockwood and we're here this ~ C~. evening representing St. Matthew's House. C=~, I want to indicate to you at the outset that we arefi~ here principally as the St. Matthew's House has hired our firm, our lawfirm, to analyze the land development amendments that are before you to determine what OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 49 application your -- these land developments would have upon their property if these amendements were approved as proposed. And we have discussed the legal issues relating to that with your county attorney, and you may want to address some questions to them. I'm not supposed to give you legal advice this evening, but let me say at the outset that the conclusion that we have reached frankly in analyzing this is that based upon many many things that St. Matthew's has done in reliance upon your current zoning, reliance upon the representations that have been made by members of your staff, and correctly so, that the rights of St. Matthew's House to construct the proposed facility at the corner of Glades and Airport Road have been vested. It is our firm opinion that that is the case and, of course, you need to ask your own counsel for their analysis of the facts and circumstances as they relate to this particular matter. We feel very strongly in that regard. However, nonetheless, we're here in an attempt to persuade you this evening not to approve these proposed amendments to the land development code relating OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 5O to homeless shelters and soup kitchens, and in particular, consistent with the action taken by the Planning Commission this morning. Please remember they took two actions. One has been discussed at some length with respect to the differential between C-5, C-4, C-3 zoning versus the C-2, C-iT and C-1 zoning. The second action they took was -- I think it's important to remind you that they also took another important action. That was that regardless of what you choose to do with respect to the commercial zoning, that in no event should what you approve this evening have any effect on St. Matthew's House. (Audience boos) And that's another very important part of the action thatC was taken by them this morning. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Again, ladies and gentlemen, please be courteous to the speakers. You C~ would want the same courtesy. MR. GOODLETTE: I just want to merely mention to you by way of a brief background because I do think that it lays the proper foundation for the comments that you are going to hear from the others whom I would like to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 51 introduce, Mr. Chairman, as we discussed before the meeting consistent with the procedure that you indicated would be acceptable. Let me just mention to you that representatives from St. Matthew's House met with members of your staff about this location as early as September of 1992. I also want to indicate to you that there have been formal meetings between our clients and representatives from our clients and members of your staff in a pre-application conference on September the 9th of 1993. More meetings in September of '93 leading up to and in reliance upon those representations and the status of your current code which permitted soup kitchens and a homeless shelter in C-4 zoning, which this property is zoned, we purchased the property and closed on the purchase of it on OctoberC3_ let of 1993. Furthermore, in later October we submitted our C/~. preliminary site development plan for this location. Ca That preliminary site development plan has been approved. I'm told by the members of the planning review staff that it is anticipated that final SDP approval should be forthcoming in the ordinary course of things within the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 52 next couple of weeks. That's how far this project has proceeded. And then let me Just mention, because I think it's important in the context in which you're here this evening, is your considering amendments to your land development code. You are not considering the zoning of property at the corner of Glades Boulevard and Airport Road. I think it's extremely important and I'm sure your counsel will remind you that it's important that you keep that in -- present in your mind. Now, Mr. Chairman, consistent with what we discussed, we have five people who we would like to have speak on behalf of St. Matthew's House. The first one is Reverend Michael Collins who is currently the president of St. Matthew's House and the immediate past president of the Naples Ministerial Association. So that I don't keep popping up and down, let me tell you that the next person who we would like to have address you is Frank M. Frank is graduate of the program at St. Matthew's House and he will speak to you second. Reverend John Lindell is executive director of St. Matthew's House. He will speak to you third. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 53 Fourth will be Reverend Russell Mays, who is the past president -- a past president of the ministerial association, a long term supporter of St. Matthew's House. Next would be Susan -- Reverend Susan Diamond, who is currently the president of the Naples Ministerial Association. And last and certainly not least is Mr. Jezz Perry, who is one of the rounding directors and members of the Board of Directors of St. Matthew's House. If you will permit and the audience would permit the courtesy of having these six people address you and recognize them with the same courtesy as we have recognized them, we would very much appreciate it. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Reverend Collins. (Audience boos) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Ladies and gentlemen, we are not going to permit yelling from the audience. That is not permitted. If you are going to insist on doing that, we're going to clear the room. We're not going to permit that. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We would like to know where those OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 54 people live. started with. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: quiet we'll start. Reverend Colli~s. REVEREND COLLINS: That's important. Follow the rules you They don't live near here. (Audience boos) As soon as everybody is Thank you. My name is Michael Collins. I live at 470 Nottingham Drive, which is in District 2. I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you this evening as president of the Board of Directors, as senior pastor of Emmanuel Lutheran Church and as Dudley pointed out, immediate past president of the Ministerial Association. I Joined the 'St. Matthew's Board of Trustees two years ago -- about two and a half years ago. That Board was already, at that time, working tirelessly on securing a feasible piece of property to build a permanent facility, because the rented facility that we are presently in was inadequate and insufficient to meet the growing numbers of growing needs for hungry and homeless persons in Collier County. Throughout this time our intentions have been open OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 55 and honorable. As we have pursued the property at the corner of Glades Boulevard and Airport Road over the last several months we have continued to work above board and in good faith with Collier County and its employees to diligently follow the proper land development codes and requirements in effect for the building of this shelter and soup kitchen as established by this commission in October of 1991. However, now there seems to be a specifically directed attempt to detail our ministry because of a fire of fear being kindled in this community. That fire of fear is being kindled by a frequent public misrepresentation of information, by inaccurate and irrational rumors claiming to be facts, by several unfounded accusations and by a petition circulating against the establishment of this so called hobo Jungle. At the least, I find all of these things amazing and disconcerting. However, to even infer, imply or insinuate that St. Matthew's House propogates a hobo jungle is as ludicrous as saying that the Glades community is a white spiritual ghetto because it disagrees with the placement of St. Matthew's House. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 ?' 12 56 We are not a magnet that draws people to this area. I know of no signs on the subways up north inviting the homeless to sunny Southwest Florida. No matter where these people come from these are hurting and struggling people who need our help in returning to the mainstream of society. We are not part of the problem. We are working diligently to be a part of the solution. The irony is that many of the very fears being voiced will be addressed or perhaps even cured by our ministry in the area. A ministry I might add that this County Board of Commissioners themselves has supported since 1990 through a financial committment of $46,500 for St. Matthew's House to minister to the hungry and homeless of Collier County. In October of this year, as you already know, I signed a new contract with you for an additional $10,000 to continue that agreement by another year by helping provide the forecasted 90,000 meals, shelter and medicine. We appreciate the commissioners support and the countless others who are enabling this mission and ministry to go. A soup kitchen and shelter are more than OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 57 a basic right. They are a spiritual necessity. They are essential responsibilities of all of us. Therefore, you must realize that this soup kitchen and shelter are not just nice things for a few good folks to do. St. Matthew's House is a basis of our calling to serve as God's people. As I stated earlier, there are some in this community who wish to paint St. Matthew's House as a problem. But let me again emphasize to you that it is not. We presently provide services not available anywhere in Collier County. And the new facility will answer the evergrowing need of shelter for women and children. St. Matthew's House is part of an answer to heartwrenching tragedies of human hunger and homelesshess. Therefore, I speak emphatically against any attempts to re-define current county policies that would hinder the building of St. Matthew's House and soup kitchen. With all due respect, notice I use the word hinder because I believe very strongly in this project of compassion and grace. And I also believe very strongly that God will not let it fail. The ministry of which the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 58 profit Isaiah and Jesus spoke. This ministry will not die for this ministry of care and compassion and charity was a banner carried by our fathers and our forefathers and foremothers. And if my ten year old daughter has anything to say about it, this banner will be carried by our children and our children's children. Where ever people are hurting, God's people will be there. I urge you to act with integrity and compassion. You can do something for the hungry and the homeless not judging the rightness or wrongness of their situations or actions, but by simply reaching out and caring for them as fellow pilgrims in this journey of life. For we indeed are all worthy of God's grace. Thank you. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Following Frank M. is Reverend Lindell. MR. MIEN: Good evening, commissioners. My name is Frank Mien. I live at 5355 19th Place Southwest. I'm a former resident of St. Matthew's House. I am now the operations manager of St. Matthew's House. I come from Massachusetts; from an excellent home, excellent family. I went through high school, technical OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 59 school, Boston College. Never graduated. I went into the service. I am a veteran, prisoner of war. I've been in many businesses, many. I opened a cable TV franchise. I've owned gas stations, car lots, bars. I owned a distribution center for Builder's Square. In 1986 I went into the hospital. I had a heart attack. When I come out I had nothing, ended up in the woods. 1991, Augus=, I found this place called St. They say they have no background, they'tee) Matthew's House. And I know as well as I know my own name if it wasn't for St. Matthew's House and Father John Lindell I would not be alive today. I've had cancer. I've been eaten up with it, but with the grace of God and the prayers from my friends I've licked it. I cannot say enough about St. Matthew's House. They call people degenerates, they call them everything under the sun. all Just bums. This is not so. I live with those guys. I know those guys. I go through the woods. You come in the morning at five o'clock and there's a woman with three children laying there. What are you supposed to do with them? Say, get out of here. Get lost. Please, we OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 6O need St. Matthew's House. All I have to say is if I opened this meeting this morning, I would have said my name is Frank and I'm a greatful recovering alcoholic. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Reverend Lindell followed by Reverend Mays. REVEREND LINDELL: Good evening. For the record, my name is John Lindell. I live in Berkshire Lakes. I'm the co-founder and executive director of St. Matthew's House. It's been pointed out this evening that several years ago there was disagreement with this commission and the management of St. Matthew's House. We came in here and we pledged to change the way that we operate. I'm proud to report that about a year ago that our success rate of graduates returning to society had grown to 58 percent. And equally proud at giving credit to the grace God to pass out this report, which on it's cover shows that year to date 78.8 percent of the people who entered a program for change at St. Matthew's House have returned to society. They have returned to their family be it OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 61 spouse or parent. They have rented a place on their own or with someone else, or some have gone onto long term substance abuse treatment. Forty percent of our residents are veterans of the military. Their average age is almost 40 years of age. And 40 percent of our clients come to us having been sent to detox in Soutwest Florida Addiction Services in Lee County to be admitted to a program for change. We have heard the criticism of the past. We have changed. There are now three of us who have not only gone on to adopt rules and require all residents to work, open a bank account and meet objective goals for each and every week, there are now three of us enrolled and in the process of becoming certified counselors in the areas of addiction and addiction counseling. We have heard this commission time and time again and we have learned from it. We have benefited from our relationship. This, as Pastor Collins has pointed out, is the fourth year of our contract between the ministry of St. Matthew's House and the Board of Collier County Commissioners. This year we wrote a contract with you to serve OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 I! 62 40,000 soup kitchen meals, 50,000 food pantry meals that were cooked in people's homes. These were persons who had a choice; a choice of paying their rent or buying groceries. And it's our pledge, pay your rent, please. Stay where you are because we'll get the groceries. Come and have lunch with us and take the groceries home. We have pledged to monetarily assist 150 families with rent and utility assistance. We've pledged to fill 60 medical prescriptions when no one else was open. Friday night, Saturday, Sunday, holidays we fill the prescriptions through charge accounts at Wal-Mart and the 24-hour Walgreens in Pelican Bay. We also have contracted now to get 100 persons off the streets of East Naples and into detox. We've contracted to serve over 200 clients this year. We've contracted to provide 260 free to the public 12 step self help meetings. And finally part of our contract signed by this county is to provide free to the public 3,640 ~ hours of free substance abuse counseling. C:)' ~ · This contract incidentally was signed and approvedC. by the county government and its county attorney on ---' October 12th, 1993, roughly two months ago. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 63 Again, I ask that you consider -- as we talk about soup kitchens, please talk to the experts. Forty-four percent of these 327,000 meals came from the food pantry part of the soup kitchen. They're cooked in people's homes. People who have to make a choice each and every day. A choice of paying their rent or buying groceries. It's our pledge and thanks to your support we ask that they make payment to rent and come and get the groceries. Thank you very much. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Reverend Mays followed by Reverend Oiamond. REVEREND MAYS: Mr. Chairman and members of the commission, I'm Reverend Russell Mays. I've been pastor of the first Presbyterian Church since 1976. I think the only thing I can add to the redrick of C~ the evening is homelesshess is nothing new in Naples. Ci). When Naples was a great deal smaller we dealt with it. CD. And the question really comes down to this, I think as Naples grows homelesshess is going to grow along with us. We are not a unique town as we like to think we are, and we need to provide for the fact that we will have homeless people. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 64 In the days -- in the early part of my time in Naples we had at the church four motels who would house people who were homeless. Now, the choice is between that, where there is no control. Some of the motels generally were very good about letting us know that their guests behaved well. Now and then one did not behave well and we would hear about that for sure. The question is, as we grow as a community and as our homeless population grows, which it will, is whether we deal with them and provide for them on a controlled basis or an uncontrolled basis. I fully understand the concerns of those who live in the Glades. I fully understand, yes, I do. And I fully understand the criticisms that they make of us who provide meals cooked elsewhere and bring them in. C~ The problem is it's very easy to be negative, but C3, it's very difficult to come up with alternative C~' solutions. One solution might have been when St. ~ Matthew's House had a much better lot, in my opinion, in an industrial area not abutting on any private ownership of land, that they would have had enough community support to provide the money to clean it up, which OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 65 environmentally it was unsuited for use that they wanted to use it. I think that that was an opportunity for the community to get behind and put the home where it would not have impinged or had been a problem to any home association. The money was not forthcoming. I went through this milestone youth home so this is deJavu for me. St. Matthew's House did what they could do and that was find the next piece of property. Let me just summarize by saying in my nearly 18 years here my suggestion is that we deal with this in a controlled way with the community backing and the way in which the persons that are dealt with have a chance of becoming tax payers and part of the community, and people who are restored to what God made them to be, or whether we simply pretend the condition does not exist and we have this continuing uncontrolled situation in our woods.~ We have supported St. Matthew's House because of what it does and because of what it tries to do. I hope%X) it can continue to do that and that I hope that a site can be found where that can be done successfully. I assure you from my 18 years almost of time here the homeless people are not going to go away and we cannot OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 66 pretend they don't exist. cooperative manner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: by Jezz Perry. REVEREND DIAMOND: So do it in a controlled and Reverend Diamond followed I am Reverend Susan Diamond the president of the Greater Naples Ministerial Association and senior minister of the First Christian Church Desciples of Christ in Naples. I would like to speak to you this evening as a representative of these two organizations on behalf of St. Matthew's House. The greater Naples Ministerial Association, presently composed of 40 participating ministers representing a wide spectrum of congregations from the Christian and Jewish communities in Collier County, has supported St. Matthew's House since its inception in 1988. For five years we have not only stood by its mission and ministry with our vocal support, the Greater Naples Ministerial Association has also C~' designated numerous offerings from our Thanksgiving and Good Friday services to its continuing work in our community. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 67 Most recently we held our community Thanksgiving service on the new building site on Airport Road. We chose to move our service outdoors under a tent to send the message to our community that we believe in the important work that St. Matthew's House is doing and its vision for the future. I also come to you this evening, to this commission meeting, as the pastor of a local congregation which has been intimately involved with the ministry of St. Matthew's House on several levels. First, many people needing help come through our church doors. Some have needs that we can meet right there, but most do not. We are not equipped to meet those needs. St. Matthew's House has provided assistance to those needing emergency aid, food, travel funds, utility aid, lodging and counseling Just to name a few. As a church we have financially supported this work because we consider partnership important in meeting the needs in our community. That partnership has not only been limited to my office. For the past three years our members have shared one Sunday afternoon a month feeding the homeless and the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 68 hungry at St. Matthew's House. Children, as well as adults, young and old have all participated from our church in sharing Christ's commands to feed the hungry. In the three years of participation, we have experienced blessings not only from giving to those in need but in receiving love and sincere thankfulness by those that we serve. We have found nothing but respect, politeness and warmth each time we have served food to the hungry at St. Matthew's House. A third way that we as a congregation have been impacted by St. Matthew's House is through the family partnership program. We were the first church to have the opportunity to work with St. Matthew's House in helping the family in crisis to get back on their feet. Our family has a child with cystic fibrosis. The overwhelming medical expense and care that the child needs from her mother have placed the family in financialC~ crisis We are helping to relieve some of the financial burdens for 12 months while the father trains to find a better paying Job. The goal of this important program is to keep families together, to keep homelesshess from happening. And we believe that this kind of program will OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 69 be a source of hope in our community for maintaining family stability in our sometimes unfair and chaotic This program is possible because of St. Matthew's world. House. So I believe and our constituents believe that St. Matthew's House offers a lot in this community. Their mission, if we all fully understand it, would not be seen as one as attracting homelesshess to Naples, but one of enabling men, women and children to realize their value and potential as human beings and children of God. The churches of this community need St. Matthew's House and this community needs St. Matthew's House. We need an expansion of this important ministry to help us solve the problem of homelesshess and hunger and family crisis in Collier County. C~, I implore the county commission to stand firmly beside this new phase of community service and ministry. Thank you. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Perry. MR. PERRY: Chairman Saunders, Lady and Gentlemen, Members of the Commission, my name is Jezz Perry. I've been a citizen of Naples now for some 16 years. I live OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 70 at 1275 Gulf Shore. I have been active in both political and public service activities in this county during that time. I do not speak from prepared text. I speak as one of the original members of the Board of Trust of St. Matthew's. You know, in English common law the Board of Trust has a stronger relationship, a stronger sense of reliability than the Board of Directors. And so this organization chose to establish a Board of Trustees so that we could be more responsible to the carrying out of our duties to the community. O I stood before this commission back in 1988 when weC~- did go through the period of re-organization. At that time the members of the community surrounding St. Matthew's House had good reason to be concerned, because I know. I saw what was going on. The churches next door to us was, in many respects, made a place of dumping garbage, of drunks sleeping over night on steps over there. And they had a great sense of alarm and that I do appreciate. The people who surround us there I had to go OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 71 through the same sort of thing. And so this commission saw that a change was needed. This commission saw that the need existed. This commission saw that an organization given proper supervision, given proper organization, given proper support could help them in meeting their obligations to the indigent in this territory. And so by means of very hard work we spent countless hours working on this thing. Working with the members of your staff, working with members of the committee who came forth with what thought was a very strong constitution and by-laws. And from this we have been a working organization which has, I think, done great credit to you as commissioners and great credit this community. I have heard much talk about drunks, about the C~- abuser~ of drugs, the addicted. I have not heard anyone say anything about the poor women and children who come to this town, who are stranded and have no means of support, no place to stay. Where do they come? I'll tell you where they come, they come to St. Matthew's. And one reason that they come is because St. Matthew's is given the funds by one of the parishes or churches here OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 72 in Naples to take care of them. Our facility is so small that we can't handle women and children there, so we put them out into a motel. One of the plans that we have for the building we hope to build is to have rooms in there for these women and children, so they can be placed in a place of safety where they're not exposed to some of the citizens that are in the area roughly surrounding this. We have heard a lot about people in the neighborhood having jungles of hobos. What we hope to do by enlarging our facility is we would take care of some of these and take them out of these Jungles by giving them training, by giving them rehabilitation, by giving them hope, by giving them self C~ respect they can go out into the community and be a part C' of it and be good public citizens. It has been my job for the last year as a member o~ the Board of Trust to be chairman of the neighborhood community. My job is to listen to the complaints of the neighbors, the citizens of this county, whoever wants to voice their objection to our operation. I have had not one, not one, complaint in the last year. My predecessor, who served last year in the same sort of OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 73 ~ 16 Job, had not one complaint. Mr. Gallman, who is located up the street from us has not voiced his objections to us. We are attempting to move a half a block from where we are right now. We can be a no more danger to the area moving one block, one half block, then where we are right now. We'll only have an opportunity to serve more people, to help take these people off the streets, to help get them in a place where they can get help. And so we earnestly pray that your wisdom will help us to occupy this place. We promise to be good neighbors. The Members of the Board of Governors -- the Members of the Board of Trust strongly affirm their C~ efforts to continue to maintain the control over our C~ people who are there. They're not out giving trouble. C They're not giving trouble and they're not going to give~ trouble. If we make our move you can depend on us standing behind them. Thank you. MR. GOODLETTE: Mr. Chairman, that concludes our presentation. I appreciate your willingness to listen to this presentation. We felt as though in the ~nterest of OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 16 74 a balance presentation we wanted you to hear about the mission and the ministry of St. Matthew's House even though we do believe that the issues here should be based -- purely your Judgment should be based on a fairness issue. And in fairness to St. Matthew's House and all of the activities I outlined earlier, it would be inequitable and unfair to have these new proposed regulations in land development code amendments, if approved, be binding upon St. Matthew's House and their site at Glades Boulevard and Airport Road. Thank you very much. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Who's the next speaker? MR. DORRILL: Mr. Chairman, I believe it's Miss Slauter. My apologies to you. And then following her have Miss Varner, Jane Varner. MS. SLAUTER: I do not live in the Glades and I want to make that clear because I'm here because I come to many of these meetings and I hear a lot of what goes on at the commissioners' meetings. And I'm angry. I think a lot of people are angry when people who mind their own business, take care of OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 75 themselves and their families, pay their taxes and obey the law are being told, but you're not doing enough. You've got to do more. You've got to have things in your neighborhood, your residential neighborhood, that you don't want. Why do I have to have those things? You people make the laws and the policies and you can change them. And you are elected by the people to do that and to listen to the people. I would ask you to say to yourselves every time a facility is proposed that the people do not want in their neighborhood, would I vote to put this on Gulf Shore Boulevard? Would I vote to put this next door to my house? And if the answer is no, then I don't think you have the moral right to ask the people, any people, any of us, whether we live in a posh neighborhood or the mos~iZ modest. We all have a right to have pride and to have safety, and to be able to have some say about how we live. If we move next to an airport and there's a runway, we don't have the right to complain. But if we are living there and all of a sudden somebody says, there's going to be a runway right next -- right across the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 76 street, we do have a right to complain. And you are the people who can change that. You are the people who can stop it from happening. All over in goverment from the highest to the lowest level we see people who are listening to all the special interest groups. Everybody's got somebody who wants a handout. We don't want a handout. We just want to live in peace, and we do not want to have neighbors. If these people were such wonderful neighbors, you wouldn't find anybody here complaining. So it stands to reason that people only come down and complain when there's a good reason for it. If there are juveniles in the neighborhood breaking in, you'll hear about it. If the kids in the neighborhood aren't doing any harm, you're not going to hear about it if they're good neighbors. So I ask you to think about those things because I've seen other things go in other areas and I am angry for all of them. I'm not going to tell you where I live because I don't want any of these things in my neighborhood. You may find out and decide to put the St. Matthew's there. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 77 16 17 Thank you. (Audience applauds) MR. DORRILL: Following Miss Varner we'll have Miss Barsch, Francis Barsch. MS. VARNER: Good evening. My name is Jane Varner. I do not live in the Glades. However, as a member of Collier County I want to support them because I think we all should. We shouldn't just say, Just because it's them that's all right. It seems to me that we have to kind of differentiate between soup kitchens and controlled programs that have some direction to help people. We have a lot of programs already. They talk about woman with children. We already have AFDC. We have programs for the disabled where they can get social security. We have Medicade. So it's not like the people aren't already doing a lot. C) What we're asking you now is that we have to ~ differentiate between the different types of homeless. C) These are -- many of them are transient derelicts that '~ drop out of society who do not want to work. They like an unstructured life and who do not contribute nor follow OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 78 the rules of society. Now, you're asking that they take precedence over the people who have lived in this community, abided by the rules, worked, paid taxes and you're setting their needs behind those who aren't even residents here and who have really done nothing to contribute to our society. I have to say, you know, that people are criticizing it as being heartless, that they haven't given enough. Well, I think those who don't work and who don't try to improve their lives but live off of others, they're the heartless people. I don't know what you can do at this point. I don't know what prior agreements have been made. But I think that you must realize that your obligations are to the residents of Collier County first, and I hope you will remember that. Thank you. (Audience applauds) MR. DOERILL: Following Miss Barsch, if I could have Mr. Jacobs, please, Art Jacobs. MS. BARSCH: I'm Francis Barsch. the Everglades. I live in Pelican Bay. I don't live near OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 79 There are a few observations I would like to make. One is, I heard Mr. Goodlette say that he had conferred for months repeatedly with the staff. with the people of the Everglades. (Glades) He did not confer That is unfair. He is asking for fairness. That's unfair. I congratulate Reverend Lindell and his colleagues for moving on for certification. This is a wonderful career enhancement. That's great. Reverend Lindell pointed out that they -- St. Matthew's House made a contract with the county for thousands of hours of free free counseling. The taxpayers are paying that contract. It is not free. Last evening I was at a meeting of professional C careers. The great concern was children's health. C Emphasized in this concern was the spread of communicable~ disease. In recent accounts of Dr. Bennett's documentation in a number of cities, especially in New York, the rise of Tuberculosis has been significant. The rapid rise of this deadly and highly communicable disease is in the cities, in the cities, has been traced to the homeless. Tuberculosis is a disease spread in the air we OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 80 breath. The homeless shelter plan by St. Matthew's House is yes, on a commercial lot. It is however surrounded by residential areas populated by families~ the old and the young. The positioning of a homeless shelter and an added soup kitchen puts such a residential area at high risk to communicable disease. New York City -- and I am a born and bred Manhattanire -- I grew up there. I love the city. I am heartsick every single time I go back now. New York City has Just gone through a ten year, two billion -- not million -- billion dollar homeless plan. A plan of building shelters and providing food and guidance to the homeless. Last year the New York City Commission on the CD. Homeless, itself declared and evaluated, quote -- and ICD ' quote this -- "The current system must be seen as the ~:-. failure it is." Commissioner Norris has taken a stand politically incorrect, but courageous in being faithful to the charge of any elected official of any government, Collier County included, to serve the public safely and the public good. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 81 The greater good. The usage of the commercial lot for a homeless shelter and added soup kitchen is not the usual commercial usage. It is different. There are special characteristics to this. He is Justified to propose amendments requiring special permission to open such a shelter and soup kitchen. I ask the other commissioners of Collier County to have the courage to support his amendment now and have it effective now. Thank you. MR. DORRILL: Following Mr. Jacobs we'll have Marcy My name is Art Jacobs. (D Ogden. MR. JACOBS: Good evening. I'm the chairman of the Property Owners Association of North Collier County. I live in Vanderbilt Beach. I would Just like to read this short resolution. The Board of Directors of the Property Owners Association of North Collier County resolve this land development code be modified so the soup kitchens not already proposed would be treated as conditional uses. And in parantheses it says, this would grandfather St. Matthew's OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, N~PLES, FL 33962 82 House but still provide the due process for any further soup kitchens. Thank you. MR. DORRILL: Following Ms. Ogden I have Mr. Nelson, Dennis Nelson. MS. OGDEN: My name is Marcy Ogden. I am a resident, full-time, of the Glades and I am decades away from retirement. I'm here to offer my family's firm support to all the fine people who are affiliated in this endeavor of St. Matthew's House. St. Matthew's House is providing a daily solution to our growing problem of homelessness in our community. Of course, we wish there were no homeless. We wish there were no hungry residents of Naples. We also wish that East Naples did not have a higher percentage of homeless~ and impoverish residents then other neighborhoods in Naples. However, we are honest and mature enough to appreciate that as residents of the Glades and East Naples we have a continuing presence of homeless residents. The important thing for all of us to remember OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 ~ 83 tonight is that these are not just people, these are neighbors. They can be neighbors who live in the woods; desperate and alone or they can be neighbors who live in a thoughtfully planned and architechurally pleasing home who are eventually mainstream into our community through the love of many neighbors throughout our community. Personally, I feel safer in my home while St. Matthew's House grows an~ while it prospers. And I feel better about the future value of my property knowing that obvious problems are met with practical solutions today. Especially at Christmas time, I urge you to pave the way for St. Matthew's House to be the good neighbor that the homeless and we property owners need. Thank you for your time. (Audience applauds) MR. DORRILL: Mr. Chairman, following Mr. Nelson we'll have Mr. Marland, Earl Marland. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Nelson, before you begin, ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to again ask you to please not applaud after the speakers and to discontinue the boos and that sort of thing. It's not beneficial to anything. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 84 Mr. Nelson. MR. NELSON: My name is Dennis Nelson. I don't represent any group. I live in Golden Gate Estates. I find this whole situation to be full of absurdity. I think it's absurd that not one of the people who are speaking to you representing St. Matthew's House mentioned anything about why they're locating where they're locating and they seem to be determined about locating there. I think it's absurd that where I live that a soup kitchen can be located within three quarters of a mile from where I am. And it's totally ridiculous that a soup kitchen can be placed in these good peoples' front yards. But the real absurdity that propels me to come her~= was when I heard on the radio yesterday, whoever was speaking on WNOG, St. Matthew's sole responsibility was to the homeless. Well, I'll tell you what, sooner or later there's going to be a tragedy out there~ a murder, a rape, some serious crime that's going to be associated with that soup kitchen. And I think the people of St. Matthew's House will then have an opportunity to explain in court why they think their responsibility is solely to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 85 the homeless. I think if I were a Member of the Board of Directors of St. Matthew's House I would be very nervous. I don't understand why there is no serious public position of public reason for talking about why this house should be where they proposed to put it. And I think that if it is allowed to be put there and the inevitable tragedy happens, the voters will certainly want to know why this was allowed to be put where it is without public.comment. Thank you. MR. DORRILL: Harry Tidler. MR. MARLAND: Naples, Lake Wood. Mr. Marland and then Mr. Tidler, I'm Earl Marland. I live in East The problem here is not as much St. Matthew's Hous~. because I think they have done some good work, but the soup kitchen. It act as a magnet. They can say all they like that they're serving people in the neighborhood. The ~eason they're in 'the neighborhood is because there's free food. If you put that soup kitchen down on Gulf Shore Boulevard you would have some of the homeless down OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 86 there following it I'm sure. I think that tt's the question of whether or not they have gone too far. I'm sure, so far as that lot is concerned, if they don't locate there they can sell that lot for as much as they paid for it. I don't think they're stuck with anything -- or more probably. But to locate a soup kitchen at that spot is going to cause trouble. It's an undesireable thing and any neighborhood -- no neighborhood is going to want a soup kitchen of that type because it does act as a magnet. And I guess it's kind of a great shock to the newspaper to find the people of East Naples begin to speak up against having various undesireable projects dumped on them. But I think from here on out you will hear from East Naples whenever anything of this sort comes up. I thank you very much. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: MR. DORRILL: Mr. Tidler. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Tidier is the last on this item. items. MR. TIDLER: I have two other people on two separate Mr. Chairman, I didn't know I was OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 87 going to speak here this evening so I made a few notes here Just a little while ago while I was waiting. I think one of the pertinent questions that has already been asked is, would you want this in your front yard? I don't think that it was probably thought out to begin with. When their first zoning was allowed with this, they should have been considering what this might do to the people in the Glades. Now, the ministers lead you to believe that probably this is an ungodly thing to do, you know, to go against this. I don't believe that. I think there's a smaller question of practical application. These people need Jobs, and for Jobs you need a vocation, vocation you need some training. I think the best thing they could do with a project like this is locate it in the farm community, grove community, where these people could have a practical application. They could learn farming, theyC~ could learn groves. They could get out and learn to C~ work. The farmers would love to have them out there. C:) And, you know, working hard is one of the best C~ things you can do. These people need to learn. They need to regain their own self respect. And they would OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 8S gain our respect for them, you know, if they did that. They will get a little nervous at times. There's times when you can't quite hold still. You got a lot of things to do, a bunch of things. A lot of things going wrong. You can't quite sit still, you know. You're fidgeting around with one thing or another. You can go out and mow the grass for three hours, something like that. Does wonders for you, doesn't it? That's what these people need to do. They need to learn something like that. They could learn farming. them. It would be beneficial to Now, this program that they -- St. Matthew's House uses could be very successful and might need to be expanded. It might be very desireable to do it. Where are you going to expand it on Airport Road? Into the C~- Glades, is that the object. I don't think that would beck. desireable. They need to go to the farms and everythingC:)' where they have plenty of room to expand. And like I said before, they could buy the ground for a heck of a lot less money. I think that, you know, the farmers know how to work hard to put these people to work. If these people OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 89 got out and worked hard and took their mind off a few things, it would gain their self respect. They would be willing to look at going out here and working and doing some other things. They would probably all end up being farmers or grove tenders. It would turn around, you know, and insight them to consider other things. It's really important for a person to learn to work hard. It doesn't do much good to stand around up there on the corner with a sign that says, we'll work for food. And it's not just here in Naples. It's all over the country. Recently in Indiana, Plainfield, Indiana I was talking with the president of a local Savings and Loan in his front yard there one day. We were talking about on 38th Street near Lafeytte Square in Indianapolis there's a gentleman over there with a cardboard sign. I've seen C~- him there a number of times. He's probably about 65, 70 years old, probably older. The sign says, please help my~D' family. He's standing out there in the median at traffic time each day shaking his sign, you know. And he says, you know, if you ever watched him, you know, when he's got some money where does he go. He heads for the bar OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 9O and he gets some wine or he heads for the liquor store and he gets some wine. Well, you know, they might need a facility here perhaps that might -- they might need a place for two, three, four hundred people. Who knows. It might be a real benefit to the community. The question is, it's not really going to be a benefit to them over here. Put them where these people can work, learn to work hard so at the end of the day they're tired, they can go and lay down and go to sleep and be ready to get up the next day and work again. It was mentioned that there were 1256 taxpayers from the Glades. That's not right, because there's at least two taxpayers in most of those families, sometimesell' more not counting some of them that are rented. So there's really over 3,000 people probably over there ~.. the height of the season that are taxpayers over all. I would like to see you do something like that. I would like to see St. Matthew's do something like that. I think that would be much better for them, be much better for us. We have got a right to protect the value of our property. It's just a question of time. You've OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 91 read about Polly Klasp. You want that to happen here, because it's a good chance that it can happen. They didn't think that it was going to happen there in California and it did. Thank you. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: other speakers? MR. DORRILL: Mr. Dorri11, there are two Totally separate items. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Call those speakers and then that will conclude the public hearing. MR. DORRILL: I have Mr. Asher, John Asher. If you're still here, sir, on temporary use permits. Following that I have Gerald Fitzgerald concerning the request to have multiple kitchens in one house. MR. ASHER: I've got a handout here. COM]4ISSIONER SAUNDERS: If you could, please be a little more quiet we have a couple speakers on some other issues. MR. ASHER: Good evening, commissioners. I spoke to you the last time regarding the -- in addition to the proposed changed language for the temporary permit, I had come acroos the situation where I OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 ~k 92 needed to expand the use of it to allow temporary facilities on adjacent property under, you know, severally limited conditions. And I've had several discussions with Mr. Baginski and Mr. Mulhare, the planning staff. And I believe I've come up with language that is acceptable to them. I'm not quite sure whether they're going to support my position, but it's the best language that we came up with. And the reason for this is the bold language has been added. The first Item A in there basically says that an applicant would have to demonstrate to the development services people that, you know, there is a definite reason for this. Lack of frontage and extreme environmental constraints, no public access to the property, which would limit them, a developer from C~ C~. marketing that parsel until basically all the roads and ~ infrastructure are in. --. I've got an example of that as the second sheet. CF~ The dark colored areas are environmental preserved that we basically cannot touch on either end of the property. I cannot put a sales facility within the road right-of-way. I'm going to tear it up to build it. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 93 That's what the third exhibit shows, all of the infastructures going in there. So, you know, we're out laying many millions of dollars up front to begin golfcourse construction, yet it couldn't be marketed for nine months to a year down the road, which would prevent a hardship. So the only way to allow for this has been to present it before you here. So this is where -- the point I'm trying to get in the language added. There's also some time constraints as to this. Commissioner Volpe had made some comment that he didn't want it to extend on for an extended period. The time constraints in there is that once this sales facility was approved, they would have to submit final construction plans and file it within 90 days. Then we would go through the construction process, and after everything was completed that facility would be removed within 90 days. And in no case could it last for 18 months, longer~ then 18 months which is un4er a normal construction scenario for a large development, Golfcourse Lakes. It seems reasonable. And Mr. Baginski added the language that we would remove all the temporary facilities from the adjacent property and restore it to its existing OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 94 condition. That maximum 18 months would be counted towards the maximum of 24 under the existing proposed language. So I think I've done everything that -- to make them happy with it or comfortable. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We'll find out. MR. BAGINSKI: It's absolutely true that certainly we have had a couple conversations during our last meeting that this is not a proposal submitted by the staff or the reviewing staff. And there was a short conversation or debate and we were to go back and see if we could come up with some language. We kind of did that. What I'm saying is that there really hasn't been any problems that I'm aware of with any other development~ meeting the requirements of the code at this point in time that I'm aware of, so this is rather a unique circumstance. I guess what I'm saying is I'm not necessarily sure that one situation in five years warrants changing the land development code. But if the Board wants to adopt this for unique situations, we have worked on this language and it's probably as good as OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 95 we're going to get. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: that language proposed? MR. BAGINSKI: No. You have no objection to It provides for time limits and effectively it's kind of an either or thing. That whatever they use off site is going to be subtracted from their facility on site. The one thing -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: What does that mean? MR. BAGINSKI: Pardon me, sir. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: What does that mean, that offsite could be subtracted from their facility onsite? I assume that one the facility is set the other one goes away. MR. BAGINSKI: Yes, sir. That's what I'm saying. We did not want to leave it open ended, so that's what we_. provided for was time limits. So again, whatever time ~ period it takes for them to get their construction drawings and their final approvals. If they are offsite, for example, for a year, normally we issue the temporary use permit for a two year period of 24 months. So that one year would be subtracted from their two years. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 96 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Are there any questions from the commission for either Mr. Asher or for Mr. Baginski? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I Just -- since we had the discussion last time, on the timing I understand that critera as to under what circumstances we would allow this type of sales facility to exist. When the language here that the acceptance of the preliminary subdivision accepts, within 90 days of preliminary subdivision acceptance, what -- I don't understand that language. MR. ASHER: Preliminary subdivision acceptance is the process that once you completed all your infastructure you go through preliminary acceptance. after you'vet Final acceptance is one year from that time made the maintanence period. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: What happens if you have -- ire= this instance as you've indicated a very large development which you may be doing in phases and perhaps doing the infastructure improvements only for a part of the overall planning development. At what point in time does that 90 days -- when do we measure it from? Is it the first time? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 97 MR. ASHER: I think that was changed the language with Mr. Mulhare. probably -- MR. BAGINSKI| Yes. It should say the initial phase. -- it was in there at one time and we I think it's That relocated facility is going to have to be -- I would advise it to be in that first phase for acceptance. MR. ASHER: Right. I think after the language, preliminary subdivision acceptance it should say the initial development phase. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: It says, upon issuance the applicant shall submit for the initial development phase within 90 days of preliminary subdivision acceptance. MR. ASHER: Of that phase. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Okay. because then it does get a little bit confusing -- MR. ASHER: Right. We need to clarify that COMMISSIONER VOLPE: -- of when he has to submit it. If that's the first phase that's accepted that that's the period of time when the facility has to be relocated. The maxium amount of time would be 18 months I guess from the time that the construction OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 98 plans are submitted, is 18 months a reasonable period of time? In 12 months it seems to me they ought to be able to complete the subdivision improvements within 12 months. MR. BAGINSKI: I think -- to be truthful that was kind of a negotiated time period because I think that Mr. Asher had suggested that that would be really pushing his folks to the limit. MR. ASHER: Twelve months is almost an ideal situation. That is assuming there's no hangups. You go out, you build the infastructure. There's no delays. And in many cases you're dealing with golf courses and a lot of lake infastructure where it could take you nine months just to finish, you know, digging the lakes and placing the dirt for the golf course. So that's why I pushed to get it up to 18 months as a maximum. -~. The one thing that I would be willing to reduce would be the 90 days from the preliminary acceptance. Initially that was put down thinking you get your infastructure completed and then you -- if you record your plat after that then you apply for building permits. And that would give you a long enough time, you know, to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 99 get a permanent model on site. But generally a developer is going to be in a hurry and record the plat prior to that, so we could shorten that up 30 days without a problem. MR. BAGINSKI: One thing I would like to point out to the members of the Board is that because that we have been discussing this, Mr. Asher, myself and my staff, and because this is basically the. submission of the applicant from the public, this would be subject to the final review and approval of the attorney's office. They have~D not approved this yet. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So the other issue really would be to put this to the next development -- the next" amendment cycle so that the staff could have an opportunity to work it out as well, which is going to be in January. MR. ASHER: Well, my feelings are that they are amending the whole temporary section and so if you're asking for comments on this section, this is my comment. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I understand that. My only comment is that Mr. Baginski says that the staff really has not really reviewed it for legal sufficiency on some OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 100 of the other issues. MR. BAGINSKI: I'm identifying the fact that the attorneys have not reviewed this for legal sufficiency. MR. SAUNDERS: Mr. Asher, will that present a problem for you if this is placed -- MR. ASHER: Yes, it would. MR. SAUNDERS: Can you explain that Just a bit? MR. ASHER: We're clearing the land and beginning digging the lakes there right now and we would like to get a sales facility as soon as possible. So you may hear this on some other item before you -- in order to allow this. MS. MATTHEWS: What would you have done if they weren't doing that? MR. ASHER: Come before you with a public petition. That was initially what we proposed to do and then finding out that this was in the amendment for the temporary use, we figured this was the avenue to take then. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: If you came to us on a public petition the only thing we would be able to do is put you on the next cycle, which is still the next cycle. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 C= 101 MR. ASHER: There may be language in there which allows some relief from this. And the temporary use, couldn't it go to the Board for approval to allow MR. BAGINSKI: You have got me. I don't know what you mean there, sir. MR. ASHER: Before this came up we were applying for -- we were going to go to the Board on a public petition. The owner is the one that got this initiated and then we saw this was the avenue to proceed. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Was this language presented to the Planning Commission at all? MR. BAGINSKI: No. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Cuyler, would it be permissible for us to -- and this may not be the forum which to do this -- would it be permissible for us to permit their temporary use pending the final amended cycle or the final amendments presented in the January cycle? If the amendments are approved, then the use can continue. If the amendments were not approved, the use would discontinue. Would we be permitted to permit that conditional use pending the final outcome of the ordinance? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 3.02 MR. CUYLER: There's nothing in the code that would allow that. What was the temporary use for? COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: land. Sales facility on adjacent MR. CUYLER: allow that. Let me point out a couple things. that allows that. There's nothing in the code that would There is no code That's why the code needs to be -- '7:'-:... potentially needs to be amended. The question is, is there anything in the code that would prohibit us from permitting the conditional use pending the amendment that would be presented in January. If the commission is indicating a willingness to consider that, that would not be a binding obligation upon the commission. Mr. Asher's client would operate the facility at his own risk. If the amendment fails, the facility would have to end. When I said that there's nothing in the code to allow that, you have no authority to do it. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. Just trying. Anybody have a suggestion? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: dilemma of this particular property owner and I am I understand the particular OFFICIAL CO~T REPORTERS, COLLIER CO~TY, NAPLES, FL 33962 103 sympathetic. I guess that's not the proper way of characterizing it, but I'm not comfortable where we are in the process. It's language that's being presented to us this evening. Mr. Baginski indicates this is the first time in five years. That's not to say we may not do it in the future. We don't have the question of legal sufficiency. And the other point I would simply make is you have indicated, you know, these things don't go along in the same way that you would expect them to. So what might have taken 12 months may take 18 months. So I can assume that maybe getting work on the golfcourse won't proceed as quickly a you'd like it to and maybe we can get you into the next amendment cycle, which would be in March; C~ is that correct? ~ · MR. BAGINSKI: It would be brought to the Board "' sometime in March, I believe. ~ COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Why don't we go through the rest of the speakers and then at the conclusion of the public hearing and we know where we're going on these particular issues, this will be an issue that we'll wish to vote on. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 104 MR. ASHER: If I could Just say that when I spoke before you last time you said, well, let's get together with Mr. Baginski and try and work out the language. And I worked with him diligently, probably met at least three times tracking him down over there and he said, this is as good as we can get it. Let's present it to the Board. There was no mention of having to run it through the attorney's office prior to this. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Commissioner Constantine. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Asher, the purpose of these hearings is when the wording comes before us, if the wording needs to be cleaned up or if the content needs to be cleaned up, or if we don't like it at all we can toss it out. But to fine tune or to mold this, I C~ tha ~ don't think what's he's asking you to do is anymore n~ that. It's an area that the wording might not have been--- exactly this way two or three weeks ago. But it's an area -- an issue that was being addressed. All we're doing is fine tuning the way we're addressing it. I don't think this is out of line at all. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. As I said, we will conclude the public hearing and we will be voting on OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 105 this. to approve it tonight. MR. ASHER: Okay. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: MS. FITZGERALD: Hi. It's a question of whether the vote will be there Thank you. Ms. Fitzgerald. I'm here to speak about kitchens, but not soup kitchens. Although I don't want a soup kitchen in Naples Park, either. We have commercial property right near it, so I do have some sympathy with the Glades. What I wanted to talk about was your item on page 112, Item 2.6.37 kitchens in dwelling units, more than one primary kitchen. Twenty-five hundred square feet isn't a very large house. It isn't really very large at all. I can't understand why anyone would need a secondC3 primary kitchen in a single family home, especially one(D that small. _, u~" Houses with servants, I mean real houses with servants, usually have one major kitchen where the servants work. If they want to snack after hours they can go back where they work, but they sure don't need a second primary kitchen to do it. Now, what the problem with this is the people are OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 106 using this to build illegal duplexes. It's a very easy way to get around the law that says you can have one building, one unit on a 50 foot lot. I'm speaking specifically now about Naples Park, although I know that this is happening in Golden Gate Estates, too. People who want to build a house and have an illegal duplex can simply request a permit with two primary kitchens. It's easy to build 2500 square foot on a 50 foot lot. And We have several examples of this in Naples Park. There's two new buildings. We have sent them to Dick Clark's office and he may remember. They're on the corner of Sixth Street and 98th Avenue North. And I don't know how they ever got through planning because you have to be deaf, dumb, blind and stupid not to know that these wez~D going to be duplexes. We have some people, a committee with the pr p rt~,, oe owners of Naples Park who cruise around through Naples Park regularly to list all the violations. And one of them came to me and said, Listen, I want you to come over and have a look at this house. It was under construction. So I went over and we went through the house. He said, what do you think? I said, I'm looking OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 107 at a duplex. You walked in the front door and there was a separate entrance to this unit and then there was a separate entrance to that unit. It was the same thing on the first one. Apparently a mother built one then the son built the other, although that's only hearsay. don't know that for a fact. so I guess I'm here to ask you to please do something about this and not to pass this as it is here. It's not strong enough. How are you going to police it? Are you going to go over there and say, okay, guys, you got to tear these houses down. Anybody who buys this house can continue to use it as a duplex unless people like me are constantly going to Dick Clark saying, hey, they've got ,two people there now. One was so obvious that they put two driveways; one on one side and one the other And it's being investigated by Mr Clark's~ office but this still continues. duplex. And in Naples Park, especially, we Just can't afford this kind of density. We've got traffic. We've got problems up the ying-yang there. It has to do with density· Traffic is Just one. It's being used as a---' OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 108 SO I'm suggesting that maybe you should consider increasing the size of the house to at least 4,000 square feet. In fact, I don't think 4,000 square feet is big enough for this type of thing. limiting it to certain areas. You might consider For instance, a PUD where you have deed restrictions, and this kind of thing would not be allowed. You could say, okay. You'll allow it in places like Quail Creek. But anyway, just limit it to PUDS that have large homes. I believe there's a new development, Gray Oaks, that is also building very large homes. And you might consider limiting to that. But as Commissioner Constantine is probably aware, the problem exists in Golden Gate. And I hope I'm not too late coming here, but this is too easily abused. I'm here to ask you if you could do something about changing the wording in that section. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: public hearing. MS. FITZGERALD: I wish I had known about it. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: And the same issues that you have identified and potential for abuse were discussed by the Board at that time. So it isn't if we're hearing it We discussed that at the fir~'. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 109 for the first time. You've re-enforced some of the discussion that did occur at the first public hearing. MS. FITZGERALD: changing it? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So are you going to consider At the conclusion of the public hearing we will discuss that issue. MS. FITZGERALD: for your time. Okay. Great. Well, I thank you COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you, Ms. Fitzgerald. Is there anyone else in the audience who wants to speak on any of the issues associated with the land development code? The public hearing is closed on the land development code. MS. HOWELL: There was one item that -- by the wa~ it's Miss Nebleseck now -- Item 2.7.2.3.2 on page 12 your small packet that I handed out today -- What was that number again? It'S on page what? Twelve of the small packet I handed COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: MS. HOWELL: 2.7.2.3.2. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: MS. HOWELL: out to you today. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 110 At the first public hearing you, at the request of Barbara Culley, you directed us to add the word substantial to differentiate for the notice to the property owners within 300 feet to differentiate between substantial and insubstantial fees. And after some discussion in our office we believe that there shouldn't be a distinction made until such time as the land development code is further amended to identify what has been the substantial there. They are not currently divided and the code recommends -- we recommend that we leave the language as the staff originally proposed with just -- or a plan unit development amendment and not add the word substancial. Miss Culley, by the way, agrees with that. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Are you going to bring it back the next cycle? MS. HOWELL: No, we'll Just leave it as staff originally proposed in the big packet from the last time. We will not -- the word you see on page 12 where it says substantial, I've added today because you had directed me to do that at Barbara Culley's -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Ms. Howell, we will not be OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 111 approving the language of the original? Right. That says everything except MS. HOWELL: substantial. MR. CUYLER: I Just wanted to note that I talked to Ms. Culley earlier and this is probably not her druthers, but that she thought that was fair and would address it like that. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. Is there anything else from staff? Mr. Baginski. MR. BAGINSKI: Yes, sir. Also, one of the other items addressed specifically the parking requirement for the athletic field; such as soccer and football. And the Board had requested that the staff try to check some of C~ the existing codes and find out what other standards there were that might be applicable. Believe it or not" we had a devil of a time trying to find out -- trying to~ establish or find other standards. We contacted such things as the American Planning Association. We again went back to our parks and recreation department. We contacted some of the surrounding communities and frankly, we could find no actual standards. They range OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 112 anywhere from one per four seats for grandstands and for viewing areas or 30 parking spaces, whichever was greater to Sarasota County that requested or required one parking space per 1500 square feet of recreation area. We did -- I found one in West Palm Beach that I thought was reasonable, which was one per four seats or 30 spaces -- 30 parking spaces, whichever is greater. Probably the most flexible was Lee County. They have no actual requirement at a11. recreation director. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: questions? MR. BAGINSKI: It was at the approval of the Does anybody have any One other thing that I did, we did contact one of the local coaches for soccer. And they(Z). had suggested or she had suggested that from her C:}' experience that generally they field two teams with 18 people or 36. Generally those are parents that drive their children. some referrees. 42 parking spaces. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: recommendation? You have another two coaches, you have That brings it up to a minimum of about Do you have a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 4 113 MR. BAGINSKI: Um, the 50 that we had proposed is not -- does not appear to be out of line. Again, I kind of like West Palm Beach that requires one per four seats or thirty, whichever is greater. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Just for clarification, Mr. Beginski, please. The current amendment on the code was at the requirement of the -- MR. BAGINSKI: There is none, sir. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: And has there been a problem? MR. BAGINSKI: The real reason for this is when the parks and recreation people submitted their plans for recreation facilities that we really had no standards. C~ That's where we came from the 50, because that was whatc~ they were proposing in their plans. That's when they C~ came back to us and said that certainly that's ~' reasonable. That's what we're going to construct to. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: What have you found to be the existing conditions with respect to the number of places for those facilities that are in place? MR. BAGINSKI: I haven't, sir. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: parking Wouldn't it make some sense if OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 114 we've got some existing facilities that are in place and we don't have a problem, why don't we Just adopt what is the reality of today as the place of beginning. MR. BAGINSKI: Okay. I agree, and I'm sorry. That's when we went back to the parks and recreation people and suggested or asked what they felt was reasonable, and that's what we came up with. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Chairman, could I suggest that perhaps what we could do, Mr. Beginski, is leave the land development code as it is and allow for this to come up at the next amendment cycle to give us an opportunity to look at what our existing conditions are. It would seem to me -- there was a consensus that 50 was unrelated Between now and then we'll have the existing facilities to anything. MR. BAGINSKI: ample time to get a survey on with Collier County. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I think at this point we have -- I guess at this point we're ready to start voting on the various proposals. We have half a dozen that are controversial or for which there have been some last minute changes suggested. I would suggest that maybe we OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 115 ought to do those with a series of motions. The first motion perhaps would be to approve all of the land development code regulations that have been presented by our staff, exclusive of the ones dealing with 2.6.3.7, which was the kitchens and the twelve units. We need to discuss the size on that. The one dealing with the temporary construction and development permits that Mr. Asher is here on, the ones dealing with the soup kitchens and the homeless shelters, I think those are the three that we need to discuss~ is that correct? Why don't we entertain a motion to go through everything except for those three areas. MR. NORRIS: Mr. Chairman, I'll make that motion. (D COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: I'll second that. eliminated parking for the recreation? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: That's correct. motion to second and I'll call for a vote. All in favor signify by saying Aye. (A chorus of Ayes) All opposed. That passes unanimously. The ones that we need to discuss we'll Just take We have~' We have OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 116 those in order. The first one that we discussed was the one dealing with the soup kitchens and the homeless shelters. Commissioner Constantine. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: First of all, I want to make sure we're all focused on looking at this as a county wide policy. Almost everything we talked about tonight had to do with Glades and St. Matthew's House. We're not looking at a specific project tonight, we're looking at the county wide policy. I don't want to get bogged down on one specific subject. It seems to me our purpose and we heard this tonight and we say this ourselves often, to focus on the health safety and welfare of all the people of Collier County. This morning I understand the Planning Commission had an attempt to compromise. I guess I would call it that. Some districts, commercial districts, would be -- would have conditional uses for these, some would not. They've tried to differentiate to create some areas where they would be allowed and I appreciate the effort of compromise. I'm not sure it goes far enough. They OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 4 117 talked about C-1 and C-2. My concern when we talk about C-3 and C-4 is very specific. I'll give you an example of what I'm concerned about. In Golden Gate in C-3, for example, we have a lot of mom and pop type shops. People who put their life savings into a clothing store, bags1 shop or whatever it is. I can picture a plaza with maybe a dozen units in it and all little individual stores. Even in C-4 you could have real estate agencies, you could have insurance agencies, you could have a news stand or a card shop, that type of thing all individually owned in here. And without a conditional use, all of a sudden you could have a soup kitchen appear in the middle of this plaza of one dozen shops, which is serving a community in which each C~ of these individuals have put their life savings into The concern being there is likely to be a number o~-. transients coming daily; morning, noon and night to thosT' businesses or to that plaza. Those businesses are going to be adversely impacted. And I think when we talk about health, safety and welfare, we're looking -- trying to look out for the people such as those going into shelters but also those who are trying to build and operate OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 118 businesses, and trying to have families here in the community. My concern is that the adverse impact you could have on those types of businesses is not taking into consideration their health, safety and welfare. I think equally there are situations and there are places In Collier County in C-3 and C-4 that are going to be appropriate for soup kitchens or homeless shelters. But I think to avoid the case where that plaza ends up losing businesses and those families that own those businesses and end up getting hurt, it's important to have an opportunity for public input for conditional use within those districts. I would say probably in C-5, which is light industrial or, of course, when you get into the industrial section there's probably not a need for a conditional use. But I think when the potential impact~ is there on other people and all that, it needs to be heard in a public forum. So my feeling is, I appreciate the compromise the Planning Commission did this morning. I would like to see it go a step further and perhaps include C-3 and C-4 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 119 as well. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Norris. MR. NORRIS: Both Commissioner Constantine and I, of course, share your concerns. That's the whole point of this exercise. I have to say that a lot of -- in the last few weeks a lot of the rearic has been fairly strong on both sides, and as we have certainly graphically shown tonight, this usage of land can be somewhat too highly controversial. And it's those uses that we need a review process on. And that's the whole intent of these amendments. At the same time it's important to recognize that St. Matthew's House has done a very good job in rehabilitating a lot of the homeless people. I wouldn't classify them as an excellent facility, but certainly very good. They're very valuable to our community. need that sort of thing in our community. The whole question here, and it was Reverend Mays(~' who went to the heart of the whole question when he said that when St. Matthew's House was looking at their property in an industrial area, that they had community support and there was not -- there was only a very OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 120 minimum of any kind of objection whatsoever. And that is the key. We need this type of facility in our community and St. Matthew's House is a good one. But there are locations that are appropriate. And there are locations that are inappropriate. And the amendments that we have proposed here for us will allow review by the county commission on an individual basis for these facilities. And more importantly, will allow a public forum so that people can bring to the public view what their opinions are on the impact to their property rights, which in my estimation individual property rights and the health, safety and welfare of our citizens are the most important thing that we as a county commission do. And to allow this review process in these cases where as we have shown can be very controversial, I think is the minimum that w~:~'' should to do. And therefore, Mr. Chairman, I would like to make motion that we adopt the amendments concerning soup kitchens and homeless shelters to have them become a conditional use in commercial zoning districts. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. We have a motion. Is there a second? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 121 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Before the second, if there is a second, just on the discussion I'm of the opinion that this type of land use should, in fact, be a conditional use. In looking at some of the other type uses in a C-4 district, one of the things I was doing while the speakers were addressing the Board was to try to get a sense of the types of uses within these existing C-4, which is where I was focusing are conditional type uses. And if I have not misread -- and I may have -- but I've got some other logic to support it including that a hotel/motel is a conditional use in these zoning districts, outside of an activity center. And I kind of analigized in my own mind as part of the homeless shelter issue the question of -- it's kind of like a transient lodging facility. That's what a hotel is. And I'm thinking in those terms that if the transient lodging facility, outside of an activity center, is a conditional use, is this really any different? So that's the logic that I've got at least preliminarily on why I think this type of facility should be a conditional use, certainly in C-4 and C-5 zoning OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 122 districts. The issue is a land use issue. And the other observations that I've made are that the issue of the homeless as a result of recent study, I'm told, is not the question of homeless. It's the question of alcohol, drug abuse and mental illness. That's the real problem of the homeless. It's unfortunate but that's what the study concludes. When I look at homeless shelters, there is no requirement that the homeless shelter provide any type of treatment for drug, alcohol or mental illness. And the gentleman that spoke to us very courageously identified the fact that he was a recovering alcoholic. So another reason in terms of the program issue, we may want to look at how we address homeless shelters to require as a part of homelesshess that it is absolutely essential. St. Matthew's House, early on in this process, you didn't have a program. We debated that as to what kind of program you had in place. You've come long way and you should be congratulated on that. I think that we as a community may need to address the issue of homelesshess in a more meaningful way in terms OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 123 Of providing treatment as a part of it. On the question of the soup kitchens, Commissioner Constantine raises the issue about the soup kitchen being Presumably the statement related a conditional use. certainly to C-4. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Yeah. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Your concern was -- the issue was that in a C-1 or C-2 district that that type of a use maybe detrimental to other businesses in the area. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Yes. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I guess -- I don't know that that's the issue that we've been dealing with, the issue of location of this type of a use within close proximity~j'. of a residential neighborhood. Someone said, don't put it on Gulf Shore Drive. Don't put it in my residential neighborhood. This is not residential. The Glades is residential neighborhood, but this zoning district is not a residential neighborhood. It's not in the state zoning. It's not any one of our higher zonings. So as part of the issue, if we were to move this into a conditional use -- I'm sort of addressing that on the homeless shelter -- I think that you have to put some OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 124 minimum distance requirements as well. We do that with certain other types of uses. It is really a consideration that we might want to factor into whether it's within a thousand feet of a residential neighborhood, where ever it happens to be. As it relates to going forward, the summary is I support both the soup kitchen and the homeless shelter as being conditional uses in the C-4 district. I would like to hear the rest on the other issues -- that issue -- and some consideration to perhaps where you've got a C-4 district that is within some close proximity, whether that should be a fact to be considered. And also, overall I think homeless shelters shouldCD be required to include some type of a treatment -- shoul~ be required to include some type of a treatment componen~D of the overall program that's provided CO · CD COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Cuyler, I would like to ask you a question. Mr. Goodlette raised a legal issue in his presentation concerning the potential for vested rights of the facility at the Glades, the St. Matthew's House petition. And I ask that in light of one of the recommendations from, I believe it was Mr. Art Jacobs, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 125 suggested and I believe that the Planning Commission had suggested also that if the rules are going to be changed to require that there be a conditional use application for a homeless shelter and a soup kitchen in a C-4 district, that it not apply retroactively to the Glades -- or to the St. Matthew's House at the entrance to the Glades. Your opinion in the event that we do make it applicable, we do develop a conditional use process that was applicable to St. Matthew's House at their proposed location, a lawsuit is filed concerning vested rights concerning their legal right to proceed at that location, what is your opinion? COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, can I Just c suggest -- and I don't have any problem with getting an c c answer to that -- but it might be more appropriate to establish a policy first. I don't know if it's appropriate to deal with this. It's two separate issues. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I agree. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: The issue I addressed was the county wide policy and the second issue is, does it have some impact whatever that policy is. But it seems like a county wide policy first. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 126 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Cuyler. MR. CUYLER: Having a suspicion that the issue might come up I asked Martha to prepare some notes and give you a little background on estoppel cases. What we're talking about is an equitable estoppel case. Potentially that would be filed by the Plaintiffs in this case, being St. Matthew's House. She'll give you a little bit of background on that and we'll discuss it to the extent that you want to discuss it. MS. HOWELL: The issue in terms of equitable estoppel is not changing the zoning destination. We know it's C-4, the subject property, but whether the uses can be changed, whether the Board would be stopped from c changing the uses in the C-4, particular uses from c permitted to conditional uses. ~-' Equitable estoppel case law is all over the board. -- There is lines of cases that you lead you into a hundred ~ different rabbit trails. Generally a proposed development -- generally a land owner has to have a final development approval before they can rely on their zoning. In this case St. Matthew's House does not have a final development approval. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 127 But there is case law that indicates that sometimes something less is allowable and that's why it's called equitable estoppel, because the courts base their decision on the issue of fairness rather than legal principles necessarily. In one case it was recognized that it was unfair for the local government to rezone or to change the uses allowable in a particular location or in a particular zoning district. In that case there was also a charitable organization involved who was trying to -- who had purchased property in reliance on the existing zoning. In that case they had spent less then $40,000. In this case, St. Matthew's House has spent more then $400,000. That's one case. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: MS. HOWELL: Yes, it is. Ie that a Florida case? I think it's the Third District. It's Project Homes, Inc., -v- the City of Astualla. I don't have that case with me. say with case law which side the Court would come down on if we were sued over this because there are also cases out there that say that if the land owner has a red flag that a zoning change is pending before they have a final c It's hard to--- OFFICI~L COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 128 development approval, that they can't rely on their zoning. But the Astualla case works very strongly in St. Matthew's House's favor if they were to bring a lawsuit against the county. So in summary, the zoning in this case was confirmed by staff just like it was in the Astualla case. Prior to the purchase of the land there was an expenditure that was a greater amount then in that case. And in that case they -- the distinguishing factor in that one case they did have what the Court deemed to be something tantamount to a final approval. MR. CUYLER: I think that the bottom line is and you will hear us caution you to say that the cases can go either way. Equitable estoppel, it really can go either C C~' way. It depends on whether the Plaintiffs can convince the Court that there was an unfairness issue. That's whg~_' you get such strange answers in these cases, because sometimes the Court is convinced with very little. Sometimes no matter what you show they're not convinced that there was an unfair situation. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. Any othar discussions? We have a motion. Is there a second to the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 129 motion? As I understand it, Commissioner Norris would provide for the changes to the land development code that would apply to future obligations but would also apply to St. Matthew's. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: address St. Matthew's House. In my motion I did not As Commissioner Constantine pointed out that if we are going to deal with that it should be on a separate issue. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: You say you're not dealing with St. Matthew's House and I appreciate that, but we have to understand whether the motion covers St. Matthew's House or it does not. If it does, that may be one result. If it does not, that may be another result. I need to know the scope of the motion. And the motion, the way I understand it, was all inclusive. It would cover any future applications for soup kitchen or homeless shelter but it would also apply to St. Matthew's House and their current location. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Cuyler, do we have the legal authority to exempt a particular property from a county ordinance in this forum? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 130 MR. CUYLER: You have the ability to recognize that a given entity, if it's the only entity to your knowledge, is so far the process or to structure your language so that at some point, for example, an issuance of a preliminary site development plan, would constitute under your language the ability for projecting forward in spite of the changed language. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I think there are two separate issues. I would ask Commissioner Norris if you would amend your motion to rather than all commercial, to not include C-5 unless perhaps Commissioner Volpe would be counting it unless C-5 is within a certain district. You had suggested a thousand feet of residential? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I have a suggestion for that. On the next cycle I think the distance is something that I hadn't thought of, but that's a very good idea. Perhaps we should have the staff work on a distance for the next cycle. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: part of it -- if we are going to the next cycle I do think the treatment aspect of the homeless shelter is a critical component. Okay. I'm also includiDg as a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 131 COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Would you have any objection to not including C-57 COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Probably not. I'm not familiar with -- C-5, is it normally isolated from residential areas? Is it more closer to industrial use? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: But there's still C-5 districts in the county. MR. BAGINSKI: Well, I can't tell you how many but traditionally the C-5 is certainly the heavier commercial districts with still some carry overs from the old commercial light industrial. So heavier uses. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I have no objection to eliminating C-5. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'll second the motion then. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I've got a motion to second. Is there any further discussion? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Just for clarification purposes, a couple of clarifications. In the C-5 it may be -- you say they're heavier uses but there may be a C-5 district that is in close proximity to a residential neighborhood, and that's the issue that's come up here OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 132 and we're trying to address as part of this discussion the impact of these types of uses on residential neighborhoods. MR. BAGINSKI: Certainly. I didn't do an analysis, but I would almost guarantee they're in close proximity. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: There is one in Golden Gate. That's why I asked the distance question because there is one in Golden Gate that's virtually across the street. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So let's -- the homeless shelter, you're saying, would be a permitted use in the C-5 district even if it's within close proximity within a thousand feet of a residential neighborhood? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I think the question needs to be directed to Commissioner Norris. C~ COMMISSIONER NORRIS: COMMISSIONER VOLPE: heavier. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I'm sorry, He was saying C-5 is the I was not clear of wh~' C-5 was requested to be eliminated. some right across the street. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: It seems to me there's I guess what you had OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 133 suggested was putting it on the next cycle and addressing a distance, but unless we can address a distance here now I would just assume include C-5 as well because of the residential. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Second point of clarification. Now, the motion that's on the floor, what does the motion include with respect to the soup kitchens; same soup kitchens and homeless shelters -- COF~4ISSIONER NORRIS: Correct. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: -- are a conditional use. On the definition of a soup kitchen, there's no requirement that the soup kitchen be anything other than a facility that serves food to indigents; is that correct? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: On a continuing basis. MR. BAGINSKI: As a matter of fact, Commissioner ~ Volpe, again the handout of the soup kitchen, we, as a ~'~ matter of fact, removed that reference to indigence. We ~, simply said shall mean a facility involved in the regular serving of prepared food for on premise consumption at no cost to persons served. So there really is no -- we did not propose a reference to any type of indigency. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Where is that revised OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS. COLLIER COTr~TY. NAP!,E~q. FI, 134 language? Because I had some language here. when did you hand that out? MR. BAGINSKI: Ms. Howell. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Is that -- That should have been handed out by The only one I'm picking up right away is page 72 from the original definition. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Baginski, the Collier County Park Commerce, is that designated as industrial? MR. BAGINSKI: I believe it is, yes. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Reach? MR. BAGINSKI: How close is that to R].ver I believe it virtually borden~ it except for the right-of-way. I look right out my window. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: The industrial park off of Pine Ridge Road -- I can't think of the name of it -- Naples Industrial Park -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Pine Ridge Industrial Park. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- what surrounds that? know there's some commercial there. MR. BAGINSKI: I think there's some commercial along the main streets. I believe further back that it borders some residential property. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 135 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, the Monoray backs right up to there. Monoray backs right up to it and Forest Lakes is right across the street from it. You can't sell lingerie within a thousand feet. MR. BAGINSKI: And you can't build communication towers. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you. Mr. Volpe, did you get the answer to your que~'~ion? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I did. There is a change that you've taken out the language indigent. Also, the language that was circulated says as it relates to soup kitchen, any entity currently operating a soup kitchen as herein defined prior to the date of the adoption of this amendment is hereby deemed to be a permitted use. Now, that language hasn't been discussed with us yet; is that correct? MR. BAGINSKI: I pointed that out earlier in our discussion. That I believe was at the direction of the Board during our last conversation during the Board meeting. Where it was -- the Board wanted to make sure that those legal entities, such as the Guadalupe Mission OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 136 Of Immokalee and even the existing St. Matthew's House would not be put out of business, so to speak, by the adoption of code. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: If we don't have similar language as it relates to -- this, I guess, is Mr. Cuyler's question. If we don't have similar language as it relates to the homeless shelter, what impact would the adoption of this amendment have on the existing facility in which St. Matthew's House is currently conducting their -- COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: House in Immokalee. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: COMMISSIONER VOLPE: There's also the Friendship Also the Salvation Army. I'm asking the question. MR. BAGINSKI: My opinion would be, sir, because o~ the legal entity rate now would be covered under the nonconforming use section of your land development code, therefore would be a legal non-conforming use. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: What happens to that then? MR. BAGINSKI: The legal non-conforming use would prevent it from expanding any larger and it would protect its status or vested status unless the facility was OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 137 closed down for more than 90 days, in which case it could not be opened up unless it was reopened in compliance with that existing district. The C-4, I believe it is. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Okay. Well, then, I would like to debate just for a moment the advisability of including or not including this language having to do with existing soup kitchens within and or homeless shelters. Specifically as the soup kitchen if -- it becomes a permitted use and that means it could expand within the existing guidelines. They could serve more meals and do more people, but the homeless shelter could not. Because what you said is because you haven't exempted the existing homeless shelters, they then become legal non-conforming uses. And we know non-conforming uses you cease to operate for 90 days. So I think we ought to be -- if we're trying to treat soup kitchens and homeless shelters similarly, I believe we should try to treat them similarly as to existing operations on a community wide basis rather than having one rule for soup kitchens and one rule for homeless shelters. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I just wanted to clear OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 138 up my thought process. I was kind of thinking out loud before when I mentioned about the C-5. The intent I would like to move forward to -- I guess where we are now, again, including C-5 in the motion but with the intent being that we do look at distance issue for the next cycle. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I think we just said that. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I was kind of thinking as I was moving there. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: How about -- Commissioner Constantine, then respond to my -- as a part of the debate I'm suggesting that as it relates to the existing facilities; homeless shelters and soup kitchens, what are we -- what does the motion do with respect to those existing homeless shelters? Do they then become permitted uses or do they become -- as a result if this motion should pass, legal non-conforming uses? MR. BAGINSKI: I think that they have a little mor~ vested status then when I originally suggested to you. Because if indeed we adopt or amend the ordinance and make them conditional uses, then rather -- we do have another section under the land development code that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 139 specifically addresses uses lawful existing and the effective date of the code which are permitted as conditional uses. So I think that once you adopt -- if you do adopt a code change making them conditional uses, then they would immediately fall under this category, which they would not be considered non-conforming uses. They would be considered to have a conditional use. So in which case they would be protected as a conditional use. But there is another paragraph further on in the land development code that specifically says that a conditional use ceases to exist or operate for a period of one year or more it shall lose its status. I do believe that's correct. I do stand corrected here. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: So they do have adequate protection then?' MR. BAGINSKI: lawfully existing would be considered to have a conditional use. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: COMMISSIONER VOLPE: case I still think we ought to treat the two uses CD They would be considered -- anything' Is that satisfactory? No, because then if that's the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 140 consistently. And so I would suggest we take the language out that's being proposed by staff that says, any entity currently operating as a soup kitchen herein defined prior to the date of the adoption of this amendment is hereby deemed to be a permitted use. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: wording is unnecessary? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: You're suggesting that Based upon this discussion it seems like it's unnecessary to protect those existing facilities, the ones about which we spoke the last time, whether it's Friendship House, Guadalupe, St. Matthew's House. We don't need that language to protect them. That's what I'm trying to understand. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Any further discussion on the motion or is there any change to the motion? UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What is the motion? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Commissioner Matthews. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Wait a second. I wrote it down. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Miss Howell, when you began the discussion tonight you said that included in the C-4 were jails, halfway houses. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 141 MS. HOWELL: I didn't say that. MR. BAGINSKI: There is a conditional use within districts and it's referred to as justice, safety and service organizations. That is one of the few districts or one of the few conditional uses throughout the entire code that is not carried over. uses. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: I'm talking about permitted And you said when we began this, that the reason that the CCPC deliniated between C-1 and C-2 and C-3, 4 and 5 was because there were permitted uses in three, four and five that were equal to homeless shelters and soup kitchens, i.e. halfway houses, substance abuse centers and jails. MS. HOWELL: That's what Miss Lane testified to representing the P].anning Commission. MS. LANE: Mr. Baginski had presented that to us this morning and then earlier this evening he said he misspoke in that jails were conditional uses in all the districts. They didn't carry over and become a permitted use. But care unit -- under the definition of care unit allows substance abuse centers. You have halfway houses which would still be permitted uses. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 142 MR. BAGINSKI: As I said, it's one of the few categories that does not automatically carry over from district to district like the other commercial or permitted uses do. And through further re-evaluation we find out that the specific notation to correctional institutions, i.e. jails, would be a conditional use in the district. I believe in the C-5 district. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: The existing C-4 definition under care unit, when was that established? How long ago? Rough guess. MS. HOWELL: I'm not sure. It may have been when the code was adopted or prior to. MR. BAGINSKI: I believe that it was adopted on the 14th of October of '92, not '91. I believe it was during the second review process. For example, there was a Mr.C' Rankin and there was a consideration in Golden Gate Estates on one of the facilities there. I believe that that language was added in '92. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it because it was a very controversial issue. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: So just last year we put homeless shelters in the care unit and now we want to take them out. Is that what we're saying? OFFICIAL COLrRT REPORTERS, COLLIER 143 MR. BAGINSKI: That's the motion. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: I've been hearing -- I've been getting phone calls on the St. Matthew's House locating at this particular parsel of property since last November at least. I mean, that's when I assumed office and that was probably one of the first phone calls I got was don't let that happen. But yet they let the land code be changed last October. So I'm having some problems with that where we can't continue to change our land codes the way we are. In my estimation these two amendments came very quickly. I don't think we've given them adequate reference. I don't think we really looked at what we're doing. At the rate we're going, we're putting things in and taking things out year after year.O And our land code has put homeless shelters in last year~ we're taking them out this year. St. Matthew's House has done its diligence and it's purchased. It too has property rights. And there was no red flag when they purchased the property. It just wasn't there. This homeless shelter amendment, based on what my understanding is, came to the Board for -- came to life three or four days prior to the first amendment. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 144 10 So quickly that it hadn't even been to the CCPC. And with these things in mind, we're not adequately and completely looking at what we are doing. And for that reason I can't support the motion. I would like to see it possibly come back in the next cycle where we've had time to address it, time to properly look at it and decide if that's really what we want to do. But this is just moving much too fast. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I want to respond, first of all, the LDC is a working document. It's going to change year to year. That's the nature of what it is and that's why we have these hearings. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: But we're taking the same thing out that we put in last year. It's not that alive~-. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We didn't put it in. CD COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: It was also suggested (iD that these two things have gone through very quickly. I(~1. know the homeless shelter issue came through on a different schedule. The soup kitchen has gone through the same hoops as every other issTe on all these pages. It came through on the exact same time frame. As a matter of fact, it has actually gotten more scrutiny than OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 145 anything else in here. So to suggest that it hasn't had the proper time or proper review, isn't appropriate. And again, to drift off on the St. Matthew's issue, that's not the issue. policy. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We're talking about a county wide Commissioner Norris, would you restate the motion so we can go ahead and vote on the issue. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: After all these changes back and forth, I'll see if I can remember it. You probably have it written down there. I believe my original motion and with the amendments is to adopt the proposed changes to the land development code concerning soup kitchens and homeless shelters to make them become conditional uses commercial districts. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Did you want -- I had seconded that. I was just going to ask if you wanted toni delete the wording Mr. Volpe had been concerned about? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: That sounds perfectly reasonable to me if we are sure that the existing operations have the adequate protection. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I had asked the legal OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 146 10 question of Miss Howell and Mr. Cuyler because I felt that -- I am not suggesting this is the case, but just the appearance is that the St. Matthew's House purchased that particular piece of property. I understand that we're talking about a county wide policy. And quite frankly, I don't have any particular disagreement with considering that county wide policy. But I'm not prepared to vote in favor of this particular motion. I'm concerned about the legal ramifications of what is a county wide policy that appears to be initiated because of a particular applicant. I think the applicant had acted in good faith in terms of purchasing the property, reliance on various reputations by our staff. I think it would be putting us in some legal jeopardy to now, at the eleventh hour, place a road block for that particular project. vote. If there's no further discussion, All in favor signify -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I'll call for th~ Does the motion include then the change in the definition of care unit to eliminate from the definition homeless shelter? I assume it does. It wasn't specifically mentioned in the motion. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 147 11 unit. MS. HOWELL: It needs to. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: It needs to; is that correct? MS. HOWELL: Yes, because it references a care That's in the packet. amendments deleting homeless. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: contain that. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: It's one of the proposed I'll amend my motion to Second. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I have a question. Commissioner Matthews, you just suggested your concern was we were taking homeless shelter back out of care unit. Is there a way to address this by referring specifically to the subset of care unit being homeless shelter. If we left that under that definition at a conditional use only for that subdefinition of care unit,.. we're not changing any definition. it up. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Perhaps that clears That's not acceptable. My~' problem with this entire situation has been the sudden appearance of what appears to me to be an attempt well after the fact and well down the trail to holt the construction of a new St. Matthew's House. And they have OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 148 considerable time and money invested in that. And on the surface that's what this appears to be. I simply cannot support it for those reasons. It's moved much too fast. We have not given it adequate thought. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Commissioner Constantine. I just want to respond to Commissioner Constantine, I'm supportive of the removal of the definition of homeless shelter from care unit for the reason that my opinion is as long as a homeless shelter is just a type of facility which provides a living environment for people who lack a permanent residence, and there is no requirement, there is no requirement that there be any type of care like you would have for residential treatment for people who have psychiatric, psychological, medical, so on and so forth. There is no requirement. That's why I don't think at this particular point in time it belongs within a care unit. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Before we vote, Commissioner Matthews, can you explain how soup kitchens have gone through this too quickly. It's gone through the exact same schedule as every other one listed on here. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 11 149 COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: homeless shelters as well as soup kitchens. gone much too quickly. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: The motion includes That has I cannot support it. Fine. Don't. We have a motion and a second. If there's no further discussion I'll call for the vote. All in favor signify by saying Aye. (A chorus of Ayes) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All opposed. (A chorus of Ayes) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Motion fails three to two. Commissioner Saunders and Matthews opposed. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'll make a motion that we create a conditional use class for soup kitchens in the commercial district. Obviously they have had the availablity of going through the entire process along with everything else here. They haven't been rushed through. They haven't been stuck in the process, whatsoever. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: to give any cautionary wording for the purchase of the lands. And for that reason, too I cannot support the There still was no red flag OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 150 11 motion. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: motion? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: COMMISSIONER VOLPE: make -- COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: soup kitchens. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Is there a second to that I'll second it. The motion on the floor is to The same motion, just As a conditional use? COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Yes. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: In all the same districts? COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Yes. Obviously we're not going to get the vote from Commissioner Matthews. I'm not sure I understand why. The objection before was that it hadn't been afforded theC:>' process. This one has been afforded the process. Now, you're objecting to this as well. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Take a look in the mirror. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Ladies and gentlemen, please. We have a motion to second. Any further discussion on the motion? Here and now I'll call for a vote. All in favor signify by saying Aye. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 151 11 (A chorus of Ayes) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All opposed. (A chorus of Ayes) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Motion fails three to two. Commissioners Matthews and Saunders opposed. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What about the tax payers? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: In terms of developing the policy that you're talking about as it relates down the road to future projects, is there any desire to consider that this evening or should we move on to the next subject? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: What this does -- unless -- before everyone leaves, you may need to listen to this discussion. If there's no action taken, which I think that there's been no action taken, that means things remain exactly as they are. Am I correct, Mr. Cuyler? MR. CUYLER: That's correct. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Which means now that under that scenario, homeless shelters and soup kitchens are permitted uses in C-4 districts and all other districts and homeless shelters are care units in all districts, and that's not where I think we want to be. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 152 COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'll try one more time. I'll make a motion that we create a conditional use class for homeless shelters and for soup kitchens in C-l, C-2 and C-3 and we direct staff to look at the conditional uses for C-4 and C-5 and industrial with particular consideration in C-5 and industrial to distance. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: There's C-1T, also. Then the motion would be to provide that homeless shelters and soup kitchens are conditional uses in the C-iT, C-l, C-2 and C-3 districts and that in the -- at some future time we would consider the conditional use -- COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Direct staff for the next cycle to look at C-4, C-5 and industrial with particular consideration for the distance issue. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: understand the motion? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: All right. Does everybody I'm not sure I do. This motion is to make homeless shelters and soup kitchens conditional uses in all commercial districts other than C-4 and C-57 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: That's correct. My thought being at the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 153 12 very least six months from now we won't find ourself in an identical situation. We certainly put up the red flag Commissioner Matthews keeps referring to as far as C-4 and C-5. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: second? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: All right. Is there a I'll second. Commissioner Matthews. Mr. Baginski, is there anything else in the pipeline on this? MR. BAGINSKI: Not that I'm aware of. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: There's only one petitioner that has already made a preliminary site plan approved? MR. BAGINSKI: That's the only one I am aware of. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. We have a motion to second. Is there any further discussin to theC~ motion? Here and now I'll call for a vote. signify by saying Aye. (A chorus of Ayes) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All opposed. (A chorus of Ayes) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: It passes four to one. A11 in favo~ CD OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 154 12 Commissioner Volpe opposed. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Commissioner Volpe? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Just out of curiosity, I don't think we've addressed the issue satisfactory in that motion. I think that the issue that we're dealing with if we're going to talk about a community wide issue, I think that the process that we're in, I just couldn't support the motion. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: The next item is -- MS. HOWELL: Are you going to adopt the definition of soup kitchen as well as part of that? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yes. The next issue dealt with -- COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: On that motion, staff has direction to look at C-4 and C-5. MR. BAGINSKI: And bring it back at the next amendment cycle. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: And industrial within certain distance of residential. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We have a couple of issues. One is involving the kitchens in dwelling units. I'm going to request that the square footage be increased to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 155 2500 square feet. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: My thoughts on this is we're really trying to prevent duplex operation. That's what we're trying to prevent. And to address it by square footage really doesn't do that. I'm not sure how to address it so that you don't end up with duplexes. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Are you suggesting not to allow second primary kitchens? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: No, Commissioner Volpe, I'm not. What I'm trying to do is find a way that we can address it so that we know that we're not inadvertently permitting duplexes on single family lots. I don't think the square footage requirement does that adequately. There are inequities no matter which way you go. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: We had a duplex built out on 39th Street in the Estates and a couple more that are going up and are already up in Naples Park. And as I read through this it seems to me the problem is the word second primary kitchen. To me having a second primary kitchen, in and of itself, is a little redundant. Because primary is primary is primary is primary. you have a second first anything? How do So I think we should OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 156 12 address the problem by simply not allowing a second primary kitchen. To allow a second kitchen and that would cover service -- that would cover servants quarters, because certainly a kitchen would be less than a primary kitchen. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Anybody have any objection to that deletion of the word primary? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: kitchen. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Just call it a second Is it felt that there Should be a size limitation on it, that it be half the square footage of the primary kitchen or what? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: The key thing is that it can't -- the building itself shouldn't be constructed in a manner that allows two separate living -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: The requirement is that kitchen be -- that all rooms be internally accessible. It indicates also that -- this is not to establish or facilitate the establishment of a duplex. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: The catch on that one is the lady -- I'm sorry, I forgot her name -- but the lady that was giving us the examples said that you went in one door C~ the~ OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 157 12 and there was essentially a breezeway inside and you had Did you see that Mr. Clark? I have not seen that, but that's doors going out. MR. CLARK: basically what happens. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Everybody goes in one door and there's like a little hallway and you Just go out to your respective unit. That's the problem with that particular language. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Clark, is this new language existing in the land development code? MR. CLARK: Maybe if I can explain the genesis of how this problem came about. There was a particular PUD approximately four years ago. We never had this problem at all to be frank with you until this PUD came up. And the price range -- they wanted to have servant's quarters. So it was granted toC~ that PUD. That interpretation was granted to that PUD. ~ It has since spread from that. I'm not suggesting that,__, I'm just stating to you that with that origin in mind, i~--. we were to go backwards to say it could only occur in PUDS, as part of the PUD, we don't have that problem at all then in Naples Park and in other places. 158 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I think you're talking about Kensington Park is the one that comes to my mind. It was only a couple years ago. That was the first time we allowed that to happen. I'm not sure what we're trying to accomplish here by allowing -- we're trying to tinker with some language here, but why would we allow a second primary kitchen in any type of a residential unit 2500 square feet or 10,000 square feet. MR. CLARK: I agree with you. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Why would we want it? My mother used to do some cooking in the cellar. She had a stove. I mean, that wasn't a primary kitchen. There's got to be -- COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: That's why I'm suggesting ,..~ we moot that second primary kitchen. A lot of homes do have a second kitchen and use them for various reasons. Normally a second kitchen is a lot smaller then a primargO,' one. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: second kitchen. A guest house, that's separate. within a primary residence to have two kitchens. MR. CLARK: I don't know of anyone with a But Maybe a wet bar with a microwave. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 159 13 COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: I don't have it but I have neighbors who on their lanai have kitchen cabinets, a Genaire cooktop, refrigerator and a sink with hot and cold water. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: As long as we say it's not enclosed by four walls, if you want to do that I can live with that. You say that a primary kitchen can't be enclosed within four walls. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: But what I just described constitutes a kitchen. It's a fully functional kitchen. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I for one think it's been a problem. I've seen the problem in Naples Park. I've seen the problem in Golden Gate Estates. There's a way for people when they want to do it, trying to do it. We O don't want duplexes in single family residential O neighborhoods. My view is that a better way of O restricting it is if you've got a plan unit development. You got plan unit development. Most of our developments within our community come in as planned unit developments. If it's a subdivision, single family residences, you don't have any typ~ of a second kitchen. We don't address it, we don't condone it. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 160 '7 MR. CLARK: enforce. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: easier. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: hearing is closed. It sure makes it a lot easier to It makes it an awful lot Yes, ma'am. The public MS. L~NE: I'm, I guess, bringing this up with staff, with the Planning Commission. The Planning Commission, again, we would like a chance to look at that because there was some discussion with that. And we were told previously that anything that was not underlined or struck through, we couldn't make changes to. And that's going to be -- I think there may be some discussion on Could I suggest, Mr. Chairman,~. C~ is one to pull it out at?4' the changes in that. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: then as to this issue maybe this the next amendment cycle? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: need a motion. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I'll make that motion if we We have a motion to second to delay this particular provision until the next amendment cycle. I'll call for a vote. All those in OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 161 favor signify by saying Aye. (A chorus of Ayes) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All opposed. That passes unanimously. I think the only remaining is Mr. Ashers' request for temporary construction permit. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, if I could make a It is to say he does have plenty of room on comment. site. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: That was my question. MR. CLARK: He does have plenty of room on site, but it may not be the visibility he wants. But once we start these exceptions -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Asher. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: This is the first time in five years. MR. ASHER: Where on site? I can't get into the property. I don't have access until -- MR. CLARK: But are you saying you're going to develop a piece of property that you won't have access to? MR. ASHER: No. I will once I construct the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 162 infastructure, but I have to have a plat to have public access. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: He wants to sell some property. MR. ASHER: If Mr. Magewski would let me get -- drive the public into the property, I'd be happy to. he's not -- I can't get in there until I have a paved road ready for the public. So I have no viable place But along the frontage where it should be. way to get it inside. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: There's no legal I don't have any particular problem with it. I understand Commissioner Matthew's comment that this is the first time it's happened in five years and we're amending the code to accomodate one person. And I don't like doing that anymore than nyb dyeD. a o else, but I think that we have a situation where it doesn't do any harm to permit this particular property under the mechanism to either sell the property while he ' s putting the infastructure in -- COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Maybe we should put a variance or something where you can come and ask for it, but to put it in the land development code to make it an OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 13 163 allowable use -- COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I can agree with that. You may have some unexpected results if you put it in the code. And this is one time in anyone's recent memory that this request has come up. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Cuyler, if we approve tonight a mechanism where Mr. Asher or similar situated property owners can come in for a variance and we set that procedure tonight, we tell you that's what we've approved, can we also at the same time or at a subsequent county commission meeting provide conditional approval pending the application for the variance? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Isn't that the same question he asked before but it's asked a little different way. Let's see if you can come up with the same answer. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: No, I'm saying if we change the rule here a little bit to provide the variance. MR. CUYLER: Let me say a couple things you don't want to hear. First of all, I want you to know some things and that is this isn't a situation where you're tweaking some language that's been in the process. Mr. Asher brought the language the first time three weeks OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 164 ago. A number of people have been told they can pay a filing fee of $1,000 to have the land code amendments, and one attorney who was not particularly happy about it paid the $1500 or whatever the fee was. So once you get past that, once you get past the fact that I would like these things to come for a legal review, this one apparently is going back and forth between staff and didn't get to us. I'm not telling you you can't approve it tonight if that's what you want to do. Once you get past those policy issues and you look at the language and decide you want a sales center, another development but across the street, then '- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Let's see if there's any motion in reference to this particular application, this particular language. If there's no motion then -- COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: What was the answer to your first question? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: The answer is yes but he doesn't want us to do it. MR. CUYLER: I have no wants or desires either way. Why don't you -- if you want to ask me again. I wasn't sure I understood. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 165 14 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Commissioner Matthews had suggested that if there's going to be some recognition of this particular problem we provide some sort of variance procedure. My question to you is, if we tonight say we want to provide a variance procedure for this type of situation and it comes up once every five years, my question is, can Mr. Asher come back before the county commission meeting next week or two weeks on a public petition and ask for conditional approval pending the approval of a variance? MR. CUYLER: My answer would be the same as it was before. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: yes? MR. CUYLER: One word answer would be A one word answer would be no. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Then is there a motion in reference to the language that is requested? If there's no motion, we'll move on to the next issue. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I feel like our job is to try to make things happen that make sense. It seems to make perfect sense to me that if he can't get access to this property and he can't get people in there, we're OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 166 hindering that process. If we can somehow accomodate him, I think that's our job. So I'll make a motion that we approve the paperwork that was beaten out by Mr. Baginski and Mr. Asher. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Is there a second? To get the issue on the floor I'll second the motion. All in favor signify by I'll call for a vote. saying Aye. (A chorus of Ayes) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All opposed. (A chorus of Ayes) MR. SAUNDER: Motion fails three to two opposed. Anything else on that particular item? COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: There's nothing that I'm hearing based on what Mr. Cuyler has said there's no mechanism for us to do the variance procedure tonight a2~ we don't have a wording for it or anything. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: It has been before the Planning Commission. The same reason as you didn't want to support the motion on St. Matthews House. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Can I suggest that the county commission consider this particular language at OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 167 the next amendment cycle. Mr. Cuyler, we have a motion to direct staff to consider this language at the next amendment cycle. MR. BAGINSKI: I would appreciate it. I think that I've thrown some of the other staff members into frantic tizzy here because we're getting kind of bogged down in the next amendment cycle, which I think comes about on January 3rd. The Board has already given us some direction that we're supposed to look at the -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Cuyler made the point that this was -- there was a fairness issue here. We sent the fellow who wanted a boatdock done on a barrier island sent through the process. Maybe this developer who wants to promote his development should go through the process, pay the appropriate filing fee and do the work that he's done. Wasn't that what you were suggesting, Mr. Cuyler? C~ MR. CUYLER: I was suggesting -- I can't Justify __C~ yes, that's what I was suggesting. I can't justify people that go through the process when other people are going to say, what about him. He didn't pay the filing fee or anything. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 168 COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Let me point out why I didn't really support the proposal. He can't drive people on his property by rules, whatever. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Commissioner Norris. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: There's nothing to show them, But the point is that even if he had a sales center there next door to it, he still can't drive them on. So why not do like every other developer in the world does and rent you a place somewhere and sell them off site just like everybody else does. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. If there's no other motion, is there any desire -- I guess, Mr. Asher, if you want to proceed, you'll have to get the staff to file the appropriate application. MS. HOWELL: He has a change that he would like to recommend to the language that's proposing. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: When we did this mobile home ordinace a couple years ago, we believed that we had a good ordinance. But then after Hurricane Andrew came through, I'm very concerned with some mobile home developments especially in the area south of U.S. 41 will OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 169 probably be developed. That if they do shelter on site, we're going to put several hundred vehicles at risk. I don't think it's a very good idea that they stay in the shelter. We tried to come up with another alternative to have some hazard mitigations similar to a development of regional impact where they would pay a flat fee based on the methodology that was established by Southwest Regional Planning Counsel. We know that 43 percent of the mobile homes in July are occupied and it increases up to 75 percent in the month of November. So there's going to be some value in between those two that get the number of people that are going to be at risk that would go to one of our shelters and not -- I wouldn't recommend that we would collect as much money as -- if the developer were to build a shelter and he elected not to. For example, a $300,000 shelter. $300,000 as hazard mitigation. the neighborhood of possibly a thousand dollars per resident would come a long way to help us put in shutters on are schools or getting generator things of that nature. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Has this gone through I don't expect to recommend~ I think that somewhere in--' OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 170 15 the process? MS. HOWELL: This is on page 71 of the big packet, your original packet if you have it with you. He is just wanting to clarify his language. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We sort of voted on this, but we can reconsider it if we have to. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: That would mean we would have to reopen the public hearing. MS. HOWELL: The alternative is to -- what Ken told me was that he would probably want to come back and change that language at the next cycle, which I thought might irritate you a little. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: It would be more irritating to try to it tonight then to do it in January, unless it's going to create a problem. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It wouldn't create a problem. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Baginski, Ms. Howell, is there anything else that we need to do? Any further motions that we need to take? MS. HOWELL: No. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: You're sure about that? Let the record reflect that the county attorney has OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 171 advised that we don't have any additional motions. MR. BAGINSKI: I just want to make sure you did get a handout -- again, there was discussion on the temporary usages, the temporary use section where we originally had changed proposes and there was some disagreement from the public concerning special sporting events, religous events and community events. At the request we went back and we virtually included the same language for that section of the temporary uses that currently exists, which I hope everyone is happy with. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. Anything else? Mr. Cuyler, you're happy? MR. CUYLER: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: (The County Commission Meeting was adjourned at 8:30 p.m.) This meeting is adjourned. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 December 9, 1993 There being no further business for the Good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by Order of the Chair - Time: 8:30 P.M. BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS CONTROL " DWIG. El 'B 6'a, :,.'... ; ~'.. ...' .,, ..- .-,. ;:, ~'..,. ,, ~[r.r:.~. . , 'es.minu.~~ a~proved by the Board .. .~ ~ ..~.~'/,~ . %%,,.,~. · as pre.~ent~-// or as corrected ~'SAUNDERS CHAIRMAN