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BCC Minutes 04/15/1996 J (w/Lee County BCC) WORKSHOP MEETING OF APRIL 15, 1996, OF THE COLLIER COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COHMISSIONERS AND LEE COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COHMISSIONERS LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Board of County Commissioners in and for the County of Collier, and also acting as the Board of Zoning Appeals and as the governing board(s) of such special districts as have been created according to law and having conducted business herein, met on this date at 1:39 p.m. in SPECIAL SESSION at the Bonita Springs Lions Center, 10370 Pennsylvania Avenue, Bonita Springs, Florida, with the following members present: COLLIER COUNTY COHMISSION CHAIRPERSON: John C. Norris VICE CHAIRPERSON: Timothy L. Hancock Timothy J. Constantine Bettye J. Matthews Pamela S. Hac'Kie ALSO PRESENT: W. Neil Dorrill, County Manager David C. Weigel, County Attorney LEE COUNTY COHMISSION CHAIRPERSON: DOUGLAS R. ST. CERNY VICE CHAIRPERSON: ANDREW W. COY H. RAY JUDAH JOHN E. MANNING JOHN E. ALBION ALSO PRESENT: Donald D. Stilwell, County Administrator James G. Yaeger, County Attorney CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Call the meeting to order. We've got a little problem with the sound system, so we have no amplification. So at least minutes is able to record us. First of all, I'd like to say welcome to our compatriots from Collier County, another good opportunity for us to get together and discuss joint issues here in Bonita Springs, and we've got a good agenda today, and staff has done a good job of putting together an agenda that needs to be addressed, so we'll get started with it. The first item on the agenda today is presentation of a feasibility study on regional transit service by Jim Fetzer. Jim. MR. FETZER: Good afternoon. My name is Jim Fetzer. I'm director of Lee Tran. I'm going to propose some -- do a proposal for Lee Tran service in Collier County. Can everybody hear me? THE RECORDER: No. You've got to get to the mike. MR. FETZER: Is the mike working? THE RECORDER: That mike. That mike. MR. FETZER: Can you hear me now? MR. DORRILL: I think that records only. I don't think that's for amplification. MR. FETZER: Okay. For recording? Before we start, I thought I'd give you a little background on Lee County transit. Lee Tran currently operates 12 routes with 39 buses and 9 paratransit vans throughout Lee County. We cover 377 miles of Lee County road network, and we have $4.6 million annual operating budget, and we employ about 80 people. A little bit of background about Lee Tran. We've been operating for going on 22 years now. We were started in 1974 with FDOT as a service demonstration project. The first year of operation we provided 199,000 trips, and in 1995 our ridership has reached 1.7 million passengers, and right now we have 24 new buses on order. We just received 7 -- 7 new -- excuse me. We just received 7 buses, and we have 24 more on order. Some projects of Lee County Tran right now, we were just -- we were just notified that we have received $8.2 million for a transit corridor project in Lee County. It's going to enable us to provide 20-minute bus service on U.S. 41 from North Fort Myers to San Carlos Park. It was the largest transit corridor project ever awarded in the state, so we're real proud of that. Intermodal center, we're in the process of a feasibility study. We have $2.3 million dedicated for the construction and design of the facility. Like I said, we're in a bus replacement project right now. We have 7 new buses and 24 new buses on order. They are minimumly -- minimally funded, 83 percent from the fed -- federal and state sources. Our supergraphic bus program, I'm sure everybody has seen our buses, all different colors, all different kind of advertisement. It's a way of generating revenue for Lee Tran. Our revenues have gone from 25,000 three years ago to 180,000 this last year. We have a bus shelter and advertising program right now. We just started last year, and we are getting bus shelters put in at no cost to the county. The private firm puts them in, advertises on them, and pays us a monthly advertising revenue, and they're turned over to Lee County. They're the property of Lee County. And we have bikes on buses. We were the first property in the southern -- southeastern United States to have bike racks on our buses. The program has been very successful. Other properties are following along with us. Tampa just installed bike racks on their entire fleet. So we're pretty proud of that. The benefits of transit I think are obvious. I'll go through them. Number one, it provides low-cost transportation to senior citizens, mentally and physically challenged, commuters, or persons with low income; reduces vehicle congestion and air pollution; and attracts employers; new federal facilities must be serviced by mass transit; and provides access to jobs. The benefits to both Collier and Lee County of Lee County Transit providing a service is -- the regional concept is going to eliminate the need for multimillion-dollar dual facilities. We already have a structure. We already have a bus wash, a fueling system, and the property to park the vehicles. It eliminates the duplication of planning, grant and purchasing activities. We already do planning, purchasing and the whole bit. We -- We've been doing it for 22 years. It's going to provide access to the new Florida Gulf Coast University which is coming on line next year. It's going to be important to Lee County and Charlotte for -- excuse me -- Lee and Collier County and provide inter-county service to the citizens and visitors of Southwest Florida. In your packet you'll see we have requirements of grant-funded transit agencies. I'm not going to go through that, but if any of you have any questions regarding that, I'll be happy to answer them. I am going to cover one because it has such a large impact on our organization. It's ADA paratransit. Everyone have heard -- Everyone's heard of the Americans with Disabilities Act. It's basically -- to transportation, it means that we have to provide paratransit service to those persons because of physical or mental disability cannot use a fixed route, three-quarters of a mile either side of the fixed route. It's -- it's basically -- buses must meet accessibility standards for disabled people. The fare can be no more than double the fare on fixed routes and must have comparable days and hours of service. The big one, where does the money come from? We have several sources. Some are ongoing, and some are competitive and once -- once every few years or once whenever you get them apportioned. Of these, we have federal. We have section 3, section 8, section 9, and section 18. The only one of this -- these four that is a competitive, earmark type of program is section 3. That -- That would not be a funding source that Collier or Lee would receive every year. Lee Tran has had an application in for section 3 money since 1989, and we have not been successful. It's congressionally earmarked for capital funds. Section 8, Collier County should be already receiving these funds through their MPO for planning activities. Lee Tran receives about 45,000 a year through section 8 from the feds. Section 9 is the big one for Collier and Lee. Lee Tran receives about 1.1 million a year in capital and about 268,000 in operating. If Lee or -- excuse me -- If Collier County would start off operations, there's money sitting there that they could take advantage of, and Collier County's money under section 9 would be 146,000 in operating and 414,000 in capital yearly. It's an ongoing apportionment. Section 18 is another funding source if you're operating in rural areas. Lee Tran utilizes some of this funding for areas such as Lehigh or -- or San Carlos Park, some of the areas that are outside the urbanized boundaries. It will pay for up to 50 percent of the operating costs in rural areas. State sources of funding, there's one that's repetitive and ongoing. It's the transit block grant. Lee Tran receives this money every year. Collier County is eligible for the first year of service to receive $200,000 for operating -- operating and/or capital. We believe that the block grant will grow each year and replace the next one I want to show you. It ties into this. If Collier County would decide to start transit service, we would go after the transit service development funds, and that is also a state funding source. It's good for three years. We believe that after the service development funds would go away, the block grant would grow from 200,000 upwards and make up for the difference of the service development funds going away. There's another one which really isn't in the picture for Collier County unless they started a transit system and -- several years down the road, but transit corridor is a funding program where the state will pay 100 percent of the operating and/or capital cost to operate a transit corridor on state roadways that are considered congested. Lee Tran, like I said, just received $8.2 million to provide 20-minute bus service on 41. That may be an area that we could look at down the road after we start service. The routing we have proposed for Collier County is on page 15 of your booklets. There's also a map up here. I think I'm going to point out on this map because it's much clearer. We proposed three routes within Collier County. The blue route here is on U.S. 41. It travels from the government center up 41 to Pine Ridge, intersects with the red route which is Pine Ridge and Airport-Pulling, up 41, and it will meet the Lee Tran system in San Carlos Park. This would be hourly service, and it requires three buses to provide this service. The next route, the red route, is also hourly service. It starts at the government center, travels Airport-Pulling to Pine Ridge. It makes on-time connections with the blue route at Pine Ridge and 41 and on-time connections at the government center. And the third route in yellow is the Golden Gate route. It travels Airport-Pulling, Radio Road, Santa Barbara, and then it does a rather extensive route through Golden Gate. It also is hourly service. It requires one bus. So you have a total of five buses in service, all of them on hourly service, all making on-time connections. So somebody can travel out of Golden Gate, transfer to the government center and straight up 41. I'll move on, I guess. The next one is the operating budget, and here you'll see we have operating budget, Collier, Lee County, and total cost. We have a total project cost of 909,000 to provide service in Collier County of which you'll see personnel, operating, and ADA. The Americans with Disabilities Act is paratransit services. Basically what it boils down to is -- the share of service in Collier County is 818,000. The portion of the service traveling into Lee County is 90,000, for a total project of 909,000. You'll see below contingency reserve. That basically is we -- we cost -- our cost right now is forty-three sixty-three per hour to provide bus service. Operating more buses is going to spread some of our cost out over more buses, lowering the cost per hour. We already pay liability. We pay a sewer bill. We pay insurance and such. Those expenses will be spread over more buses, so it will lower our expense per hour to $40.32. We're asking that the contingency fund contain the difference between those two costs per hour and be there just in case. The revenues to make up the $909,000 operating cost, federal -- excuse me -- federal -- Collier County is going to receive 146,000. State funding, if we're successful in getting service development, you're going to get 314,000. Collier County's local share is going to be 283,000. Fares and advertisement, we anticipate $134,000. And Lee County's share would be thirty-one four fifty-four. Start-up requirements, we require six buses. It takes five for just doing the routes, and we anticipate the need for one spare. Similar to the bus that's parked outside, we would order the same style vehicles. They cost 230,000 each. The total cost is 1.3 million of which the federal portion is going to be 1.1. Collier County is going to pay about 17 percent of the cost of the bus -- the buses. And, again, we would need the funding for those buses when they're delivered. It's going to take a year and a half to two years to get those vehicles in. We would require the local share at that time. We require three paratransit vans to provide ADA paratransit service within the corridor of the fixed route in Collier County. The total cost is 120,000. The local share would be $20,000. And, again, we would need the $20,400 at time of delivery of the vans. We need seven radios. Lee County already has an adequate radio system that would operate in Collier County, but we do have to put it on a different channel. So we need seven radios for the system. Six will go on the buses. One will go on our base station so our dispatchers can monitor Collier County's operation. And also we propose to have two bus shelters at transfer locations, one at the government center and one at Pine Ridge and U.S. 41 so people can get out of the weather. Again, on all these projects, the local share is less than 20 percent on each one. Start-up timing, if we're going to go ahead with this project, there's certain key dates we need to stick to or adhere to. Funding can be provided by July 1997, provided the following is accomplished. We need to execute an intergovernmental agreement between Lee County and Collier County prior to 6-1 of '96. We need to -- Lee Tran would need to submit an amended TDP which is a transit development plan to the Florida Department of Transportation no later than July 1 of this year. And we would have to apply for the grant for service development funds prior to 6-1-96 to the Florida Department of Transportation. Start-up requirements, again, this is just an overview of what we just discussed, the buses, the radios, and so forth. Service description, a little more detailed. Where do we come up with our figures? Our cost per hour is established. Our forty-three sixty-three is our federal -- it's our audited cost per hour of providing service. We propose that it's going to take 11 bus drivers, 2 operations supervisors for Collier County, an additional transit coordinator in our office to assist us with the additional grant activity. You would have 22,568 hours of operation for the buses for a year, revenue miles of 331,000, and we anticipate ridership to be 233,000 in the first year, and that -- that figure is based on how many miles the buses go and point -- .7 passengers per mile, meaning you're going to have one passenger get on every mile and three-tenths. And an annual fare box revenue intake of 98,000. The next three pages of the packet are just basically a route schedule that we've come up with. I'm open to any questions now if anybody has any or -- CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Questions by either commission? Commissioner Hancock. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I've just got a couple of questions if I may. Based on your current operation, do you have any idea what percent of your ridership actually own cars? MR. FETZER: No, we do not. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. Again, because a lot of times in mass transit, the idea is that it reduces traffic or traffic congestion. So I was curious if you had any local numbers on that. MR. FETZER: We -- We have a good idea that most of our passengers do have cars, especially our commuters in the morning, but we don't have an exact figure. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. You mentioned the trend of section 9 funds continues to drop. Then you mentioned that the state transportation block grant trend is going up, or do you expect it to go up? MR. FETZER: Expect it to go up. We would apply for service development funds for about $141,000, and you would get a $200,000 block grant. Now, as the service development funds went away after three years, we anticipate as you get operational history, you get ridership, miles and such, the block grant should grow. Lee Tran's receiving -- and, Chris, you can correct me -- about 800,000 a year in block grant, and your block grant should grow enough to do -- to replace your -- your service development going away. In service development you have to operate for three years under service development, and then the local county has to take that service over and operate it at least one more year. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. And I would be remiss in not at least recognizing Mr. Stilwell and Mr. Dotrill and your respective staffs for the work you've put in on this and putting this together. I think what you've done is very commendable, and I wanted to thank both of you and your staffs. The last last question I have -- and -- and this is really for Neil. Because of the ADA application of these buses, would this in any way reduce the funds necessary for our community transportation system in Collier? MR. DORRILL: We -- We did talk specifically about that, and I had asked Jim to be prepared to discuss that today. I -- I don't think that it will specifically eliminate the need for the transportation for the disadvantaged program. What they do find in Lee -- in Lee County under Lee Tran, though, is that many of those people who would otherwise be eligible for the community transportation for disadvantaged program find Lee Tran to be a more efficient and more convenient service; thus, the ADA requirement that anybody who lives within three-quarters of a mile of a regularly scheduled route must be picked up and delivered to that bus stop. And -- And, Jim, you can elaborate on that, but I think their experience has been that their service has exceeded the prior service. While it still exists in a format similar to ours, they're finding more and more of those people come from Lee Tran because of convenience. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: And the cost; right? Isn't it significantly less expensive? MR. FETZER: Yeah. Our cost per paratransit trip is -- it's around $12 a trip, and on a fixed route, it's about $2 a trip. So we're just receiving accessible buses now, buses that are capable of transporting wheelchairs and such, and we're seeing some of our people come off of ADA and TD and come over to the fixed route. You have to encourage it a little bit, and some of the TD or the -- the ADA population -- some of them will come over on their own, but once we're fully accessible, we -- we anticipate shipping a lot of our clients over to our fixed-route system. We're feeding our -- our paratransit vans into our fixed route system. When our corridor starts next year, we're going to have service from North Fort Myers all the way to San Carlos Park which is the majority of the county. We anticipate having two feeders or three feeders of paratransit vans into the bus system so we can take -- if they're going from North Fort Myers, there's no sense of taking a paratransit van all the way to South Fort Myers, transfer them over to the bus, and then -- and then let a van in the south county do the rest of the trip. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Further questions? CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Yes. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Norris. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: I just want to make sure I understand it right. I think from the discussion we've had here this afternoon that it looks like that if we do the project from Collier's perspective, at least we'd be committing to a four-year project. MR. FETZER: Exactly. Yes. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: And I -- I would also assume that if we decided to terminate it before that, that we would have to return the grant money that we had received. Is that -- That's the way they usually work; isn't that correct? MR. FETZER: In service development -- John -- I think you're under contract for four years to do the service but John -- Ron Lasseter with FDOT might be able to help out. MR. LASSETER: Actually, what we would do is set project milestones for each year, and there would be decision points at the end of the first year. It would be a joint agreement whether to continue or to terminate the project. So we would be looking for a three-year project, but there would be annual milestones that will be reviewed by the parties involved. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Okay. So we could expect, then, something like this $283,000 as our initial year and probably something similar to that for two years -- MR. FETZER: Yes. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: -- but then the fourth year would be more like $600,000 -- MR. FETZER: No. It shouldn't -- We don't think it will be. It should stay fairly consistent because after the -- three years after the service development funds go away, we believe that the block grant will go up enough to make up the difference of the service development dropping away. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Okay. Also on page 16 of our packet -- MR. FETZER: Yes. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: -- which is the service description, I see 22,000 hours of operation and 331,000 revenue miles which would equate to approximately a 15-mile-an-hour average. Is that about -- Is that about right? MR. FETZER: Yeah. I think -- Chris, what's our average -- MR. LEFFERT: Chris Leffert. It's been around 18 miles. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: So about 18 miles an hour would be average? MR. LEFFERT: Yes. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: All right. Thank you. MR. FETZER: To give a little bit of background, Lee Tran -- when they were started 22 years ago, Lee County had a population of about -- just over -- a little over 100,000, and I think our first year of ridership, like I said, was 199,000. We've grown substantially in Lee County. We're up to 370,000 now, and our trips have grown quite a bit too but to give you a little bit of background. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Albion. COHMISSIONER ALBION: These guys are down here talking about a bullet train. I don't see that in the near future but I think -- I think it's important that -- that our colleagues of Collier County hear specifically from this side that we're very, very pleased with the job that Jim Fetzer and the staff has done for Lee County. And they took a service that, quite frankly, is not an easy task, and the $8.2 million grant is just the latest improvement that we've made to our system. We're very pleased with it. The ridership is very pleased with it. And most important is that those buses are, from what I've heard, pretty well full -- very full during the rush-hour times which obviously is where the greatest congestion times are. And I can't answer as far as how Collier County has been going the last couple of years with this, but in Lee County I know that we've had a number of different agencies, including the sheriff's department, that are -- also that's even gone on television asking people in the middle of the season that if you can be able to use the flex -- your own time flexibility to make your trips on key roadways outside of the rush hours, to please do so. So this is one way that we're able to combat it, and the number of increases that -- that are listed in here recognize how many people are being transported, recognize the fact that being such fast-growing counties as we have, that the need as far as getting especially employees to and from has become that much more critical, and I think that's a lot of what we've been seeing. It's -- The other element that I think was very important that I -- I really commend our staff for have been the supergraphic buses because, quite frankly, those buses before -- no disrespect -- were basically, like most bus systems, a bit of an eyesore. So, as a result, it's at least a little bit more appealing to go in this direction. It does generate some revenue besides, and it has made it a little bit more fashionable, if you will, to take the bus, as well as the fact that with all these new, neat contraptions they have like the fact that the bus comes down like a pony or something or an elephant to pick up its rider is absolutely wonderful. The elephant is not a republican plug, by the way, but '- So I just think that's important there for -- that I would also add -- I think it's a terrific opportunity. If Collier County feels that its residents have the need for public transportation, this can be a great partnership between these two counties. To start up and to make sure you have the right person at the helm is critical from what I've seen in Lee County over the last -- since I've been here in 1984, and it literally brings you up plateaus, and we have full confidence in our staff to be able to -- to pull it off if that's what Collier County would like to see, and I think that it's important that you hear that. So thank you. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Hac'Kie. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I just have a great deal of interest in pursuing this further and have a couple of questions. One, I had some fear about this long-term commitment and -- and that we hope this grant will balance that grant. I need to get more comfortable with that and I also -- I -- I had come today thinking that to support this, I had to support a four-year commitment, and I'm also interested to hear that there's a possibility of one year at a time bite at this apple because, frankly, what I see in Collier County is a lot of interest in this but just a great deal of fear about what's it going to look like, what's it going to look like in our community, what effect will it have on our community, and I'm interested in taking a smaller bite at the apple, and if we could do that with a year or maybe even two, that's something I'd like to talk about further. MR. FETZER: That's -- That's a good comment. You know, the system would only be as good as we make it and only look as good as we make it, and, you know, we would be responsible to do the right thing. As far as the federal funding and the fears, yes, we've seen a lot of changes in our federal funding. This year we saw a major drop in our federal funding, over -- over half. There's talk that it's going to go back up slightly this year, and it does vary from year to year with administration. The state's been more consistent in their -- their revenues bringing us -- actually been quite helpful to Lee Tran, but there's no guarantees on the federal funding. As you can see, we're only receiving -- Lee Tran is only receiving 268,000 in operating out of a $4.6 million budget from the feds. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: The other thing just from a practical perspective that I was wondering -- I don't know if this is a Jeff Perry question or somebody -- or maybe you. I just don't -- I don't know what your expertise is. MR. FETZER: Okay. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: What does this look like on the road as far as interfering with the flow of traffic if -- if -- with the stops and starts and the 20-mile-an-hour or 18 or 15 or whatever it is? How does that -- because we're talking about U.S. 41. MR. FETZER: Right. And -- And we just -- we just got a corridor project for 20-minute service on 41. We've been operating on 41 for 21, 22 years, and, yes, you're going to have some traffic, but the bus is only through there every hour. You're going to have some delays to be expected. You don't want to get the bus out of traffic because once you get the bus out of traffic, you can't get back in so you just stop. Our newer buses -- they're out -- we have one out in the parking lot. You'll see the back end has much -- or has many lights across the back that flash. So when it comes to a stop, people stop. It really doesn't create any traffic jams. It really doesn't. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: And -- And my last one is just so I understand. The -- The Collier County commitment, if it's possible to do this on a one- or a two-year program, would involve -- our capital expenditure, anyway, wouldn't come until after. We would spend $270,000 the first year and about that the next year. And it would be possible, it sounds like from what you were saying about the two-year schedule, to do this for a year and almost two before we spent the money to buy buses. MR. FETZER: We could utilize some of our old buses in Collier County. I don't know if that's a decision I can make, but we are getting 24 new buses in next year, and they're -- they're supposed to be delivered prior to March of 1997 so we can start our project. So we're going to have an excess of older buses to run. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: You might want to say that again. You're going to have an excess of -- MR. FETZER: We're going to have an excess of buses that we can use in Collier County. You know, I -- I don't want to sound down-hearted, but I can see where you want to do a one- or two-year commitment. You're not going to get the true picture of the effects unless you run it longer than that because it takes a while to get the steamship rolling. We could do a one- or two-year thing, but -- but you really won't get your riders and the people accustomed to it right away. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Frankly, I -- I'm -- you would probably find me willing to take the risk on the four-year program, but I think that the community will be more comfortable if we go a little more slowly than that which is why I'm -- I'm looking at something maybe with one or two years and -- and I think -- My reality check is that we have to do this, guys, and it's a question of when we have to do it and if we do it by ourselves from scratch and start up on our own or if we piggyback on something that's already had a lot of the headaches, that we could, you know, learn from their mistakes instead of making them on our own so -- CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Constantine. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Well, first, I want to echo Commissioner Hancock's sentiments, thanking our two county managers and the appropriate staffs for trying to work together. In the last couple of years, we've managed to work together fairly well on a number of items. And I think you're right; if Collier County wants to go ahead with the transportation system, it makes the most sense to piggyback that and to do that together. I have a number of concerns as to whether or not Collier County wants to do that. Moneywise is one thing. We are in perhaps our most burdensome budget year since I've been on the board, since any of the five have been on the board. We're facing an unusual picture and a difficult picture this year. So adding more expenses to that in the next couple of years right off the bat creates some concern. Transportation is a money loser everywhere. It is here. It is all over the country. And even though federal and state programs pick up a big chunk of that, those are still tax dollars, and it's still a money loser. So I -- I have a -- kind of a philosophical concern that when we say,"Well, only a portion of that is local," it's still all tax dollars in one way or another. The other is the route logic or the logic of how effective in can be in Collier County is a little different. You have a downtown Fort Myers, a center where several hundred or several thousand people come every day to go to work. You have different centers populated, work or shopping or whatever, population centers where people travel, and we have -- we're much more limited in that. We don't have -- Other than the government center itself maybe, we don't have a place where several hundred people convene every day or thousands of people convene every day and so that's -- I think to have logical stops is more awkward in Collier County. And, frankly, as I look at the route structure, the Golden Gate route structure is wonderful, but much of it doesn't get into residential areas. So you're going to have to find a way to get to that main road anyway. But also we have a private vendor who is starting a bus service right now that virtually mirrors a big chunk of these routes, and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for us to be spending tax dollars if there's going to be a bus service privately run and won't cost the taxpayer a penny to run almost the same route. Obviously that wouldn't connect and go up to Lee or the university, but I'm not real excited about the idea of duplicating an existing service that doesn't cost the taxpayer anything. And I do worry a little when we say it's a test case. That's obviously how we want to do it, but a four-year commitment with a purchase of a million or a million three, whatever the number was, in buses is a pretty expensive task, and when you hire on eight personnel, I think you take some responsibility for those people and have some level of expectation for those people. And so I think if you buy six buses and hire eight people and start this, it's going to be awfully hard to back off. So when we use the phrase "test case," I think once it's started it's going to be extremely hard to turn around and say, "Well, we've decided to back out of it," a year from now or four years from now or any time frame. There are some others. And, one, you answered the question on road congestion of the buses stopping. The major routes that are shown on the proposed schedule for us obviously are the most traveled, the most congested roads we have but -- Pine Ridge, it's six lanes, but it is very, very congested, and I do have a -- what I think is a legitimate concern. If you stop traffic in one lane on that, you do impact and lower the level of service on that road considerably. Much of 41 where this is, is only four lanes. Some of it is six lanes, but it's the same thing. You've got heavy, heavy traffic, and I don't know if I can -- Maybe you can help me with this one, but I don't know if I'm completely comfortable with the idea that stopping off one of those lanes every few hundred yards or every mile, or whatever, isn't going to have an impact. I just -- It's pretty darn crowded in season now. If you cut off one of those lanes -- MR. FETZER: Believe me, in Fort Myers we -- we appreciate those concerns. We have the same problem. You're talking -- Again, you're talking one bus an hour. So the traffic bite has more affect on the traffic than the bus. And as far as -- I'd like to address the private operator. I'm not sure what -- What fares does he plan on charging or any of that? Do you know? COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Yeah. Actually, I'll pass it on to you. I have a whole little packet from him here. MR. FETZER: It depends on what you're going for. Are you going for a service that's for the commuter or the daily shopper, or is it, you know, more -- I'm sure that the fares are going to be rather high on the private end so -- they would have to be to make up for the service, and it depends on what Collier County is after. If Collier County would like service to the university or to persons that shouldn't be driving anymore or can't drive, mass transit would be the way to go. Your concerns about the traffic, to give you an idea '- I'm sure everybody in this room has been on Fort Myers Beach, a two-lane road. We operate a trolley service down there and -- yeah, we do stop traffic down there, but we're viewed as a very positive addition down there. They see that there's 70 or 80 people on that bus, and that's 70 or 80 cars off the road. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: As long as you've got recirc on the air conditioner. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: We're not going to resolve all this today, Jim. MR. FETZER: Okay. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: We have two more comments, Commissioner Hancock, then Commissioner Manning, and then we've got to move on. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Yeah. That -- That's one thing I -- I was actually going to try and do is, whether we decide to move ahead or not, in no way is it an indictment of Lee Tran. You know, you've got a program that works well in Lee County. I think you have every reason to be proud of how it operates in Lee County, and not every community in the United States has mass transit, and there's a reason for that. Each community has to decide for itself whether or not it's in its best interest, and it sometimes comes down to dollars, and sometimes it comes down to character of the community. Our county manager expressed an interest, and Lee County has responded very, very well, and we are very grateful for it. I think if there is an opportunity out there to step in to mass transit, this is probably the best one available. And whether we choose to do that or not, in no way is it a reflection on what we have received or the information or the work that Mr. Stilwell has put forth because I think all of that deserves an A-plus, and I appreciate the effort. So we have a decision to make as a board, and I didn't want to let this go without saying that what you have presented us I am very grateful for, and thank you for the information, and I'm sure we're going to be making a decision in the near future and just wanted to thank you all for your cooperation and help. MR. FETZER: Thank you, sir. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Manning and then we'll move on. COMMISSIONER MANNING: I have just a couple of quick points. Do you have a mass transit element in the camp plan? So you eventually will have to develop a mass transit system? COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It's very weak. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: It's a pretty weak element. COMMISSIONER MANNING: That's -- That's, again, your decision. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: We hedged that one in the past pretty well, John. COMMISSIONER MANNING: The only thing I wanted to say was if you look at this from the perspective of the business side, to give you a flavor of -- of what it would -- what would the effect be on Collier County as a demonstration project, you won't find any cheaper way to go. I think you understand that. And if I were to go back in the history books and look up what the start-up costs were when we were in your situation from a population stand -- point of view and what we have spent and subsidized, you're right. It's not -- it's not even a break-even situation. If it was a break-even situation, we would be very happy campers on this side of the board. But you will see an increasing population in Collier County having to rely on mass transit in some form, and so I would suggest that you think long and hard about it because even if you -- if you took the boundaries and reduce those boundaries down a little bit or -- or made them conform to what would give you a flavor without the extensive map that's been before you today, I think that would be something that you should take a look at. But, you know, we're willing to work with you, and I know that it's your decision, but it could -- could develop into a very good partnership down the road. So let us know by next week, will you? MR. FETZER: Can I have one more comment, and Ran Lasseter would like to stand up and clarify some information on service development. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Make -- We've got to move on, Jim -- MR. FETZER: Oh, okay. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: -- so make it quick. Go ahead. MR. FETZER: I compared densities in certain census tracts within Lee County and within Collier County, and I wanted to show you some similarities. There's some of our better bus routes, and then there's some census tracts that would be served by Collier County bus routes, and I'll pass this around and show you some of the similarities. COHHISSIONER HAC'KIE: While that -- While they're transitioning, I just wanted to ask Mr. Dotrill if he would get the numbers to all of us about the survey results. And we're talking about what does our community want. In that annual survey every year, they have said we want the mass transit. So if you could make that available. MR. DORRILL: We -- We can. And, Mr. Chairman, if I could digress for just a half a second, if not today, at least from our commissioners' perspective, we need to make a decision, I would think, within 30 days because at this point we have -- have suspended any further work unless you authorize us to go forward. COHMISSIONER MANNING: June 1 is the cut-off date. MR. DORRILL: That's my understanding. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I think we can be more solid, Mr. Dorrill, in just asking to place us on the first available agenda for discussion. I don't think there's a lot of information to -- yet received that we haven't got. So I think it's -- it's right for discussion as soon as possible. MR. DORRILL: A final -- A final thought I have, Mr. Chairman, is I -- I can tell you, from a staff perspective, in 16 years I have never been more impressed with the Lee County department and for no other reason than the entire administration of Lee Tran is here today sitting in two chairs in addition to Mr. -- COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: We like that. MR. DORRILL: That's right. I -- I'd like for these two folks just to stand up and tell you who they are because I'm -- I'm telling you, these people really -- really do run a fine department. I just couldn't help but be any more impressed with them over the last three months. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Come on. Don't be shy. MR. LEFFERT: Chris Leffert, and I do the grants coordination. MS. HONTAZ: Susan Hontaz. I'm a senior fiscal officer. MR. DORRILL: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity just to recognize you. You did a fine job. MR. LASSETER: Mr. Chairman, just a quick comment. I'm Ron Lasseter from DOT. On the service development, just to clarify something, it is a three-year maximum program that we can provide funding. At the beginning of the project, we would set milestones for each of the three years. If we meet the milestones the first year, we're just asking for commitment to go into the second year. And the same thing the second year. If we met the terms, then we go to the third year. If at the first year we do not meet the milestone, then it would be a joint decision to terminate the project or to continue anyway. So I just wanted to clarify that. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Thank you very much. I had a request to combine item two and item five from Chip Herriam from South Florida Water Management District. We'll begin with these two items. I just want to -- While they're leaving, just one reminder. We do have to be out of the hall by four o'clock. So that's why I'm trying to push this meeting. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Not a problem. MR. HERRIAM: Okay. I'm Chip Herriam with South Florida Water Management District, and today I want to talk about a couple of things. One of the issues I want to bring up is the -- issue number five on your agenda today, the channelization of water to the south. What I'd like to do is give you a little perspective of what we did this summer, what happened this summer, and where we are to date with the recommendations that have somewhat grown their own entity out there. First off, we're all very well aware that we had a real wet summer this past summer, around 65 inches of rainfall between June and November. With that said, during the latter part of the summer, going into the fall, a leadership group from the Bonita Chamber came and met with the district in West Palm Beach to discuss some of their concerns and issues. Some of the concerns they raised were how we were going to deal with this today and in the future when further storms move into this region. One of the discussions we had was that we would work with the local community or local leadership group to look at some ideas and establish a charrette, if you will, or a planning workshop to try and get our arms around what happened and what the issues were. After we committed to that, we also committed to two workshop sessions. One was in November, and the other was in January. Well, before we got to November, Hurricane Opal provided us with an extra 7 inches of rainfall and a federal disaster. What we then did was took advantage of a consultant that was on the ground doing some reconnaissance for Lee County, expanded that scope and had them take a much more detailed look. Not only did we ask them to do that for a limited amount of money, but we also asked for all the modeling and everything to be done in six weeks. All that was completed, and a series of recommendations came forward. That's what they are. They're recommendations at this point. The recommendations include one of the items we just recently completed which was snagging and cleaning the Imperial River. We also included right-sizing, for some of the changes in development that have occurred, a few culverts out there. Others identified some constrictions, bridge openings that were not near wide enough. A good example was the 1-75 opening was 300 feet. The next opening, 1,000 feet to the west, then it's 43 feet. Three hundred doesn't pass water through 43 very well. The next opening to the west is 93 feet. one of the recommendations was to take the first 43-foot opening, make it wider. Again, it's a recommendation. Some of those kind of fall into common sense, how you -- how you do these things. Then comes our charge of how we balance this. We have to balance the adverse impacts on -- from the flood events, the adverse impacts it could cause -- be caused on the environment and other downstream landowners. So that's pretty much where we are at this point. We filed an application with FEHA using the information that was gathered during the storm event. The application lists all the recommendations that were -- that would fit within a window that we thought could successfully be accepted by the State Division of Emergency Management and by the Federal Emergency Management Agency. With that said, one of the ideas came up from what was possibly historical. If you took the development out that's out there today, when rainfall sat in the center portion -- the south -- central portion of North Naples and southern Lee County, water most likely traversed south, in a southerly to southwesterly direction very slowly. The Cocohatchee, the Imperial, Halfway Creek, all those smaller tributaries were pretty much areas where when the water staged up, it leaked out to the west. Some of it still moved its way, depending on where the storms were and the storage was, even further to the east. What happens today is, as the water tries to move its way back into the historical direction, it comes across several embankments, developments and other items that are kind of in its way, and it tries to makes its way out to the Imperial River. What doesn't make its way out to the Imperial River will back up and then come back into the Cocohatchee. So what we then did was we took a look at some of the history and some of the engineering we had from the basin. We took care of the new models we had, and we started looking at where do we go from here. The first simple steps were some of the initial recommendations which are the ones I discussed, snagging and cleaning, culvert replacement, looking at some other regulatory issues where we have some water that needs to be altered somewhat by new permits coming in. Those we did call in the developers that are currently under application or were just finished application, ready to go for permit, and we asked them to -- to alter their permit product some so that we could get more water moving in a different direction. To date they've all been very responsive. What we were looking at in the recommendations were -- and this is the scope we gave the consultant, was -- do nothing was one extreme, and then come up with the most engineered solution you can come up again with in six weeks, and that was the other extreme. Where it's actually going to fall out in all those is -- is going to come with time, planning, and engineering to make sure, water being dynamic, that we don't just push it -- stop it one place and push it on somewhere else. So that's what the next step is, and that's the step we're walking into now, is, as we implement A, B, and C, what happens elsewhere. And from that point on, I'd just like to open it up for questions. I know you have some concerns. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Questions by Commissioners? COMMISSIONER JUDAH: Yes, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Yes. Commissioner Judah. COMMISSIONER JUDAH: Chip, you've probably seen that article in Naples Daily News. I've received a lot of comments from constituents regarding the difference with the Big Cypress Basin revenue that's used solely in Collier County versus the tax dollars that Lee County sends to South Florida Water Management District. Let me preface, first of all, by saying, I, for one, am very appreciative of what the district has done for Lee County in particular and the region in general with regards to helping manage water supplies and protecting us from a lot of flooding problems, but I still think, though, it's worthwhile to comment today publicly regarding some of the figures that were presented in the Naples Daily News editorial. For instance, Lee County being taxed 80 million since 1990, receiving 8.7 million in benefits versus Collier's Big Cypress Basin investing 7.3 million in Collier County. MR. MERRIAM: I'm going to answer it kind of two ways if I could, Commissioner. One is I'm going to start some of the process, and Mike Slayton, our deputy executive director is here, and he was the past administrator for the Big Cypress Basin, and he can pick up some of the other pieces for me. When we were in discussion with the reporter on that article -- we have a problem because we are a regional entity that covers 16 counties. When you pay taxes in to us, we do not measure the benefit on a percent contributed by county to -- in a basis back. The projects that we are in charge of at this point include, as you're well aware, the Kissimmee River, Lake Okeechobee, Caloosahatchee, St. Lucie, the Everglades, Florida Bay, on and on and on. That's the -- That's the big picture. Also, when we do water supply plans and when we implement projects, there may be a set that we have that we can account for that was directly -- On the lower west coast, I think the number in there was maybe $900,000. That did not account for all the east coast personnel that was also involved in the modeling, working on that project as well as the lower east coast water supply plan, on the upper chains water supply plan. We don't have the -- We have not accounted that way. It's the district, 16 counties. We account for the region as a whole. Now, to separate and just by a template over on one county is somewhat misleading, and if Mike can help there some, I would appreciate that. MR. SLAYTON: Good afternoon. That same differential -- CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Could you state your name for the record? MR. SLAYTON: Mike Slayton, deputy executive director of South Florida Water Management. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Thank you. MR. SLAYTON: That same taxing issue applies directly with Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach County where the district receives approximately one-third or two-thirds of its -- of its ad valorem revenue from. Our -- Our taxes are used throughout the system, and those are applied wherever the needs are in the system, from the head waters in the Kissimmee down through the lake. There are differences in values paid and values received. Our view on the -- on that issue is the water is moving down throughout the system, and whether the taxes are taken from within Lee County and applied elsewhere in the basin, the water flows down through the system for the county's benefit as well and the same issue down in, you know, Dade and Broward counties. COMHISSIONER JUDAH: Mike, I think it's all well and good that Lee County along with many of the other counties contribute on a regional basis to helping restore the Everglades and the Kissimmee Basin, but I think there's a nattower scope of thought that perhaps more monies that are generated in Lee County for these regional efforts perhaps could be redirected back for local needs within Lee County, much of what's being done with the Big Cypress Basin. I guess that leads off into a discussion as to whether or not it's fruitful to consider expansion of the Big Cypress Basin boundaries, where that plays in with the effects of the South Florida Water Management District's efforts to take a regional approach to managing water supplies. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: You want to address Commissioner Judah's comment? MR. MERRIAM: Mr. Hammond wanted to address it, I think, because he was coming back. MR. HAMMOND: I particularly want to address that one. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Bill, would you state your name for the record? MR. HAMMOND: Yeah. Bill Hammond. I'm a member of the governing board of South Florida Water Management District. There's a political answer to that too, Ray, and I think as a governing board member, I've witnessed -- and I think perhaps in some ways, the Big Cypress Basin has gotten more support from the district at large than -- than Lee County may have. If you look at its political influence over the years, three of our past chairpersons have come from major interests from the Big Cypress Basin area, and -- and it's just like me and Lee County. I'm under Commissioner St. Cerny's district, but I don't get the same service as some other people in other districts in Lee County get if I look at a dollar paid for a dollar value in return. What I am impressed with right now is that there are some big things in the wind in my view as we look at Southwest Florida. We're seeing some proposals that return us back to kind of Neander -- Neanderthal drainage plans of -- you know, of what happened on the east coast that are not solutions that we're paying hundreds of millions of dollars now to try and rectify. And what Chip has proposed is a range of spectrum of possible solutions that look at not just drainage but water supply, surface water management, and restoration of systems that are out there right now, in many cases that have been overdrained. Some of the issues in the basin affect drainage to the north where we have a reduced flow in -- in -- in the Estero River system and some of the tributary streams at the north end of that -- that large complex watershed system, and so there -- there's an obvious no quick-fix answer situation to this problem. It's complex. We don't have our homework fully done on trying to solve this problem. In regard to emphasis, the regional service center here in Fort Myers that serves Southwest Florida is the showpiece and the leading regional service center for South Florida Water Management District. No other region of South Florida has the service center capacity that Chip has set up here in Southwest Florida. We are seeing the district provide more services. We expect more staff members that are permanent professionals to be staffed over here next year serving the Southwest Florida region. So in addition to the Caloosahatchee studies that are going on that have been long term in coming, a lot of attention now is being focused over to the west coast of Florida in the South Florida Water Management District, and part of this has been the wake-up call to -- that -- that's come from the quarry study information. The Caloosahatchee River receives more water coming out of Lake Okeechobee, then basically flows either directly through the Everglades system, through the agricultural area, or out at the St. Lucie area. We have some evidence that's showing that -- that the Big Cypress Basin may be one of the major contributors to the nutrient loading of -- of Florida Bay which could have big implications for the future of restoration and maintenance of that Big Cypress Basin canal system if -- if it has to be class three water standards and if those waters are going to be suitable for ASR at some time in the future without having to have major cleanups associated with them. So there's a lot of complex things we're looking at here in Southwest Florida, and, you know, Valetie Boyd is our chairperson. She's been the chairperson of the Big Cypress Basin Board, and when Valetie speaks, things have been happening. I think the basin has enjoyed that influence, the same with Jim Garner and Stanley Holes' influence. But I think right now I think the whole basin -- when I say "the whole basin," I'm thinking of everything from Okeechobee down the Caloosahatchee system through the Big Cypress and all of Collier County is part of that Everglades system, and the people in the Big Cypress Basin are not paying the tenth of a mill Everglades restoration millage. They were exempted from that. But the rest of South Florida is. And Lee County is paying it because we're a major connection to the -- to that system, as is Collier County. So it's not a simple answer, and it's not a dollar-for-dollar correlation. What I'd suggest to you, if you look at it, the ratio of what's happening is increasing rapidly in the last three years of what's being sent to Southwest Florida from those -- you know, that -- that five million voters over on the east coast. I'd rather have them helping us share their money, bringing that money this way than us trying to deal with all of our problems with our one million people over on this side of the state. And I think with the federal aid and so on starting to move into the Everglades restoration, we're going to see more of the ad valorem taxes that have had to be spent on Everglades restoration moving back to serve basic water needs over here in Southwest Florida. So that -- that's -- that's where I'm coming from, Ray. COMMISSIONER JUDAH: Bill -- and there's no question the regional approach pays big dividends, and I -- I really have been very thankful of the district's partnership with the CREW programs and helping acquire the environmentally sensitive lands to assist us with functional aspects of water storage during rainfall events and the aquifer recharge and filtration of the runoff before it hits our receiving water bodies like Estero Bay and certainly your efforts with our surface water management plan and all the consulting work that was done, the payment -- the funding for the consulting work that was needed to establish those programs, but I still get hit, you know, by individuals that get flooded in their own back yard saying that, you know, we don't have the infrastructure in place to -- to deal with the combination of -- of flooding events such as Collier County because of the Big Cypress Basin's funding source to maintain those canals. MR. MERRIAM: I -- I think -- If I could, Commissioner, it's not apples and apples, and I think that the canal system in Collier County was created for a purpose at a period of time which was much different. Part of the earlier conversations and discussions that we had in 1990, in that early period there was along the lines of how do we take advantage of flowways in Lee County, how do we take care of what -- the assets Lee County has instead of the traditional ditch, dike, and dig type mentality. When we looked at that, that was the plan which came out of the surface water master plan, and that's the direction, you know, we all as a team and partners were -- were moving towards, and at that time we were your committed partner to do that. What's wrong is to -- is to believe that canals and ditches or smaller ditches, improvements, that kind of infrastructure is really going to make it that much better. It's -- you know, you -- there's a fine line, and we tend to human nature-wise build up or exceed the level of service we established. And you look at Cape Coral and all the canals they have, they -- they flood when it rains in the summer. COMMISSIONER JUDAH: Chip -- MR. MERRIAM: You look at the massive canals on the east coast, it floods when it rains -- COMMISSIONER JUDAH: I'm not disputing what you're saying. In fact, I agree that -- that the -- the contemporary approach -- the modern-day approach is a much superior approach than -- than years past with all the ditching and diking and channelization. The preservation of natural flowways, the proper disbursal of surface water runoff is the way to proceed, and I'm glad we're taking that approach. But with regards to the primary canals and ditches that already exist, not any new canals and ditches but what already exists, we're not set up in Lee County to properly maintain those ditches and canals, and I guess the presumption of the folks in Lee County is we ought to be getting more funding from the district to maintain what we do have. MR. HAMMOND: Commissioner, you know, the district doesn't take care of those -- those local -- local -- just as D -- FDOT doesn't take care of your local roads. Lee County surface water management plan and Lee County comprehensive plan have to take care of -- of those secondary and tertiary drainage systems. As we found out in the flooding systems here, we have serious problems with maintenance and operation of -- of -- of those things with all the budget cuts that have been going on at the county level as well as the water management district level, and so we have to prioritize and work better together than we have up to now, and that's why the district is looking at trying to put additional planners and engineers over here to work with your staff to make sure that those things are coordinated and planned. As Archie Grant can tell you from the work he did, there needs to be updated studies accomplished on subcontracts to look at how planning and building in the last four or five years has affected that surface water management plan which has been, you know, changed drastically by what's happened. So, you know, a considered effort in the next few years is going to bring that plan up to date, but it's going to take a cooperative effort of local governments working with the regional government to make that happen. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Do you have one last comment? COMMISSIONER JUDAH: One last one. Bill, while you're still there, if I could, because this 951 concept has come up and -- and I have serious support investigating that concept and had some wonderful opportunities from the standpoint of improving transportation corridors is that -- 951 to Treeline, transportation corridor improvements, the ability to use it as a planning tool determining what areas should be, you know, less density versus the urban core areas and certainly from the water management standpoint, but what I don't want to get caught in is the inappropriate design deficiencies of -- of years past with back-pumping, interceptor swales. Can you perhaps speak on the possibility of pursuing that joint Collier/Lee project -- COMMISSIONER MANNING: Before we do that, can I get back to the prior conversation? COMMISSIONER JUDAH: Sure. Can you hold that thought? COMMISSIONER MANNING: Bill, you -- you said there was a political solution to this, and you never gave the answer. What is it? MR. HAMMOND: Well, I think it's the will to go ahead and focus politically and cooperatively. COMMISSIONER MANNING: Okay. Let me ask you this question. Would there be anybody, including my colleagues in Collier County, that would have any problem if there was legislation provided that gets a portion of Lee County -- obviously at least the south portion of Lee County and the boundaries, of which haven't been decided yet, into the basin? MR. HAMMOND: I -- I -- COMMISSIONER MANNING: You know, if -- if you have the political will to do something, okay, then that would be a cooperative effort that would not take anything away from Collier County, okay, but would assist us in Lee County to a great extent from a financial perspective. Okay. Now, I can tell you -- and I didn't want to announce this -- that there is legislation that one state representative and I have discussed for the last two months, and he is doing the research now to have possible legislation trailed onto other water policy bills that at least requests interest by portions of Lee County into the basin, and I'm just putting it on the line now. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'm not prepared to make a commitment right now, but I'm willing to explore it -- COMMISSIONER MANNING: Okay. That's all we're doing. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- to see if there's feasibility. COHHISSIONER HAC'KIE: My comment about that is the fear -- if it happened the way you just described it without Collier County losing anything -- but I fear that the tax value of the property that we're talking about adding in -- COHMISSIONER MANNING: That's the thing that we want to avoid, and I didn't want to announce that. You know, I wanted to try to -- Now, wait a minute. I wanted to try to deal with you folks on a one-on-one basis and let you know what's going on in that regard. It hasn't even been filed yet as trailers on those water policy bills. The thing that I asked to have happen is that Collier County's interest remain the same as they are now and no deviation whatsoever, and so that might be the problem that we're having getting the thing constructed. But if you want a political solution to this thing, Bill, at least that's a start, maybe an unpopular one in some areas of the region, but we need the help here in Lee County and especially in Commissioner Judah's district. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: If I may, Doug. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Yes, Commissioner Hancock. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: This has been a wonderful lovefest between us and South Florida today. That's about to end. COHMISSIONER MANNING: Because -- Tim, let me just -- Mr. Chairman, if I may -- CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Well -- COHMISSIONER MANNING: I didn't get an answer. Go ahead. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: The reason I say that is -- let's face it. While we're restoring the Everglades, Ray's got people waist deep in water. COHMISSIONER MANNING: Thank you. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: And the fact that you are -- are grouped into an entire section that is funded out of one main office and you're not getting your due when people's homes are being destroyed, I don't know if I'd be as polite as you were today, Ray. Now, the Big Cypress Basin Board cash cow isn't the answer, and as you just saw, there's not going to be a lot of support for us wanting taxes that we currently can maintain in the Big Cypress Basin Board going elsewhere. So your solution of not affecting an existing operation but adding onto it I think is a logical step, and that's something that I think we would all be willing to work with you about, but I'm just surprised at how calm and polite you guys are because I don't know that I would feel the same way, and I commend you for your patience. COHMISSIONER JUDAH: I believe in long, enduring partnerships. COHMISSIONER COY: We're -- We're a great group of guys. COHMISSIONER JUDAH: Well, you can't discount the 12 million that -- that the district has helped bring to the land acquisition on the CREW program and their phenomenal help with assisting with the surface water management master plan, but clearly this is an alternative we ought to be exploring to be sure we get our fair share. But I know, Bill, that you've got to take that regional approach. MR. HAMMOND: Well, I -- I also think it's very important that the people who would be the taxpayers within this basin would be the ones that decide that, and that's the critical piece, that the voters that are going to be taxed be the ones that decide that and be well informed about what liabilities are there as well as what potential assets might be derived from such an arrangement because I think there's something on the liability side that hasn't been looked at very carefully at this point. And, John, I personally have an open mind at this point. I'm not convinced that it be the best interest of the people of Bonita Springs, but I have a very open mind about that. COHMISSIONER MANNING: I've heard that about you, Bill. MR. HAMMOND: Yes. I want to see the facts first, John, before I jump on the political bandwagon. COHMISSIONER JUDAH: One last point though. If ever such a proposal were to come to light, I'm just wondering from a hydrological standpoint, do you just include those lands south of the Caloosahatchee River, or do you incorporate all of Lee County? MR. HAMMOND: You know, there are other things -- I just -- We have a high probability of things that might happen, even the purchase of the Okaloacoochee slough system and 12-mile slough between now and next summer. Those are major areas in Hendry County that affect drainage in Lee County and particularly in Collier County and both through the Lake Trafford system and south of the Big Cypress Swamp. You know, we're connected beyond these three county lines in ways that if you start looking at this hydrology, it carries you through Southwest Florida, and you are tied to the Everglades whether you like to be tied to it or not, politically and hydrologically and economically. Collier County derives a great deal of benefit from being part of the Everglades system. COHMISSIONER MANNING: By the way, it didn't flood in Cape Coral last year. COHMISSIONER COY: Yeah. I was going to -- I was going to say that it did not. MR. HAMMOND: But we have spent more money from the South Florida Water Management District working with Cape Coral water supply problems and surface water management probably than any other part of the Southwest Florida area, and they've gone from being our worst case scenario to now being a model for water supply. They're the only really community that has a pretty secure future in water supply because of the work that's been done over the last six or seven years. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Can we get back to the 951 issue? Because we're going to have to keep rolling on along here. COHMISSIONER JUDAH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Bill, real quick, if you wouldn't mind commenting on that because at the last metropolitan planning organization meeting I -- I did bring that issue up to get FDOT involved and more players involved, and Dave Loveland with the Lee County DOT indicated that he'll be incorporating the suggestion of use -- utilizing that corridor for water management purposes in the consultant study. Perhaps if you could maybe shed some light on that. MR. HAMMOND: My -- My big concerns are, you know, again open minded, that I have not seen many impoundment systems that work well based on lots of experience in South Florida. So we'd have to look at the engineering and the biological impacts of that -- that system on a tremendous capital investment. That issue will not be just a local issue. It will be a national issue because it infects -- it affects major policy questions on federal laws, and it affects probably the gem of Southwest Florida's ecotourism market, the National Audubon Society's Corkscrew Sanctuary system. The other piece is -- is where do you put that, and the tendency is to look for the cheapest route we can find right now, and that's a mistake. If we were going to build that road bed, even if we had to buy some old subdivisions or current subdivisions to put it where it makes the most sense to put. We're going to do this once if we do it. Once in history is the lesson we learned over on the east coast. So the placement of that system will be a critical decision, and it will also enter into the economics of feasibility for that -- for that system. So a lot more homework needs to be done than anything I've seen floating around at this time. MR. SLAYTON: There's other -- There's other routing mechanisms that are involved in that further to the east in the Corkscrew canal system and then further down into -- into south where those systems interact with the City of Naples and Collier County's main well field as far as routing water potentially down in those areas for increased recharge and water supply. MR. HAMMOND: As far as the road bed and the dike combination possibilities, you know, we just haven't done enough homework to make any kind of sensible judgment about that at this point, in my view. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Thank you. We'll move on. Did you have a comment? COMMISSIONER ALBION: Yeah. I was just going to say, because I'm hearing one of the explanations, and I understand the regional standpoint, et cetera, and I know that water management district between the stagnant zone and the Imperial River really -- you know, you've come to the charge here, but I'm hearing now about 951, and I guess the question that's probably out there in most people's minds is going to be, now, how long is it going to take until we can start really saying, okay, here's the menu of possible solutions, this is a reasonable time frame so that we can start fighting for the dollars that it's going to take, whether it has to do with FEMA, whether it has to do with the state water management district, or whether it's done locally. But we have a picture and a responsibility to paint that picture for our public, and I think that's the answer to the people who are waste deep in water so -- and let me also just clarify too that, you know, where Cape Coral may not have had the flooding problems, let's all remember that east and north have also in Lee County had flooding problems. So we better become a lot more expert, for lack of a better term, at how to start handling these water conditions in the near future or else we are going to be overwhelmed by them. So that's where I'm particularly concerned. So I hear the explanations. I'm really looking for time frames so -- and I really think that that's the obligation that our public is waiting for. MR. SLAYTON: The time frame right now that involves the Bonita Springs area and North Naples is probably a year, 18 months as far as the planning process goes, and we are looking to extend that study into the southern Lee County area. Where it -- Where it doesn't come to grips with is the far northwestern intersection of that area where it handles the old coastal creeks and tributaries out into Estero Bay. So we would look for some Lee County planning assistance and coordination in that effort. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, I need to apologize. I'm going to have to excuse myself. I've got another commitment I need to go to. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Well, we need to move on because we're kind of losing our Collier County commissioners here because it's not their issue. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Is that why Charlotte's not here today? (Commissioner Constantine exited the meeting room.) COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: I -- I think the expansion of the Big Cypress Basin or the potential for it is very much our issue also and -- and -- CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: But we're getting bogged down into all Lee County issues here, and I appreciate your -- your patience with us. We'll move on to the next item on the agenda which is road maintenance responsibility/agreement. Lee County -- There we go. Scott Gilbertson from the Department of Transportation. MR. GILBERTSON: Thank you for pointing out I'm Scott Gilbertson, not George Crawford. He didn't get any younger. I'm here to talk about items three and four real briefly. We have been working with the Collier staff on the maintenance split in responsibilities, if you will, for the county lines along the county line border for the roads we don't have yet. As you may recall, back in 1989 we had sort of a master interlocal agreement that deal with road issues. And then subsequent to that master one, we had two supplements that dealt with Bonita Beach Road. Specifically one has been adopted to deal with the planning and design of it, and one is in progress right now to pay for the construction of it. So we propose to follow up with a subsequent or a third amendment to deal with the maintenance responsibilities for not only Bonita Beach Road but also Vanderbilt Lake Drive and Woods Edge Parkway. We had proposed on a lane-mile basis to split Bonita Beach Road going to Lee County and then the other two of Vanderbilt Drive and Woods Edge Parkway to be Collier County, and that gives a lane-miles basis of a little bit over 2 miles to Lee County and a tad under 7 1/2 miles to Collier County which is a little bit of a discrepancy, but Bonita Beach Road has a couple of bridges and some other more unique expensive maintenance features there to deal with. If that's sort of agreeable to both boards, we can pursue it at the staff level to give a draft agreement and bring it forward at a later date for the board's consideration. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Questions by either board? CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Yes. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Norris. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: This is strictly addressing maintenance and not capital improvements; is that correct? MR. GILBERTSON: Correct. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Comments or questions? COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: All for clarification. MR. GILBERTSON: The other item is a schedule update for Bonita Beach phase two widening construction. Right now, like I said just before, the funding agreement is currently being circulated. I think it's ready to go to the Collier board for their adoption and followed up by Lee County board for finalization of it. Assuming that gets done by the end of this month, we would advertise it for bids the 1st of MAy, have a bid opening around the 1st of June, and then start construction around the first part of July and finish that up in November of '97. Keeps us impacting just one heavy tourist season every year, traffic season, and we think it's a realistic schedule. One little snag is because of the delays on the temporary construction easements we had expire in December of this year, we're going back and contacting those property owners for an extension for those temporary easements. Assuming we get them, we're in fine shape. If not, we'll have to do some scheduling manipulation with the contract to work around those difficulties. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Could we ask to hold down the conversations a little bit in the room? Without a PA system, we're having a hard time hearing Scott. Go ahead, Scott. Commissioner Hancock has a question. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Yeah. I was under the understanding that -- and you just more or less confirmed it -- that the bids were not being sent out until all of the financial agreements are signed. I think we're -- both counties are good for it, and the bids have been held up for some time on this. I don't see any reason to withhold putting it out for bid on these agreements. We know the agreements are going to be signed at some point in some form. It's a question of which form, and we're just holding up the project and I think unduly. So I would be of the inclination that unless one attorney's office or the other has a dramatic problem with that, there's no danger in bidding the project at this point. It takes time for the bids to be received. In the meantime, the rest of the work can be hammered out. So why hold that up and -- and let's go ahead and move ahead. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: We're going to do it, aren't we? MR. YAEGER: As long as you don't award it. You're not in the position to award. You can go out -- You can send it out. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Yeah. I -- I see -- MR. YAEGER: You can't award it unless you've got the money. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I see no reason to wait. Let's go ahead and send the bids out, and then if there's a problem, then we don't award the bid, but I don't anticipate that happening. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Do you have a problem with that, Scott? MR. GILBERTSON: No. We're ready to go. With that direction, we'll do it. One other related item, Dennis Church is here with the beautification committee. He wanted to address you real briefly about beautification possibilities for the project. MR. CHURCH: My name is Dennis Church. I'm chairman of the Bonita Chamber of Commerce Beautification Committee, and I'm here to talk for a second on the Bonita Beach Road project. I understand from Lee DOT that the project is not expected to include the funds for the beautification portion of the beach road. I just want to say that, you know, I think and a lot of people in the community think that the beautification aspect of our roadways is a part of our infrastructure. It's part of our visual infrastructure. It's important to people of Southwest Florida because that's one of the reasons they come here is because of the aesthetic quality of our area. Bonita Beach Road has in the past by Lee County -- the parks that they built, they've done a real good job of landscaping it, continuing maintenance, and we really appreciate that work. This last phase it appears that if there's not enough funds, that they're going to cut out the landscaped portion of that part of the project, and it will just be grass medians. Collier County in the past has a real good record for streetscape projects, supporting that, and they're continuing to do that. It's in their EAR to support streetscape guidelines. And since this is a joint Collier/Lee County project, I wanted to address both of you here and ask that when the time comes and you get all the bids in and the dollars are stacked up, that you support the landscape portion of that project. It's a small portion of a $9 million project, but it's the one that's most visible to all of our residents and all of our people that come here to visit our area. I'm just asking you to consider that, you know, the asphalt improves the traffic, but without the landscaping that we've done so far, it's going to have a very different visual quality and -- you know, this has the support of a lot of people in our community. Floyd Lucky, a local businessman, has significant funds invested to actually pay for part of the landscaping. He's put about $10,000 in escrow to help fund that. There's a lot of organizations that would like to support this, and I just wanted to take a minute here of your time and ask you to consider that when the bids come in that you can help make sure that the funds are there for that portion of the project. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Thank you. Commissioner Albion. COHMISSIONER ALBION: Yeah. Who is going to operate and maintain that -- those aesthetic upgrades? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: That would be item number three, John. COHMISSIONER ALBION: So -- MR. CHURCH: Yeah. I think it would be Lee DOT as they do on Bonita Beach Road right now. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I -- I think it's something we can work on, and I don't know if Lee County has done this before but in Collier we have Naples-scape, and they do the public/private partnership aspect, so they do things such as Mr. Church has mentioned where they get businesses along the corridor to contribute to the installation. And then one of our maintenance -- we have enough record of median maintenance to know what -- lane-mile what the cost is. That would be an up-front that we would look at and maybe incorporate into our responsibility and agreement on who pays what and how much. I'm -- I'm just saying that number three that item could include if we're looking at these roadways, if we're going to have a landscaped median, it would be wise to include it in that. So I don't think what we're to do in number three would be the vehicle for it, but you obviously need to see the numbers. And, Mr. Church, if there's one thing we can help, it's maybe getting Naples-scape and some folks to talk with the Lee County transportation people and get some models of how this has been done elsewhere and how we've done it in Collier and other communities to -- to finalize the cost. MR. CHURCH: Okay. I'll contact George and work with your staffs to help push that along. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I think we can answer that for you that way. COHMISSIONER ALBION: I was going to say, because, you know, countywide we've been wrestling with that particular issue, that specific issue because of the operation and maintenance cost, and we have scaled back on that basis, and it is very important to us that we maintain what we call a core level of service. So, therefore, what we're willing to offer to people on Daniels Road is the same as up in North Fort Myers the same as in Bonita Springs. I will be honest with you. At least from the early indications of what I'm hearing on this aspect of it, we may have to get a little bit creative to figure out how it's going to work without putting ourselves into a bind. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: We have formed various MSTUs to not only do the capital work but the maintenance on them also, and it may well be that the businesses and homes along the corridor would want to do that. COMMISSIONER ALBION: And that's great. I just want to make sure the issue is on the table up front. I don't want you leaving thinking that this is going to be something that we normally do in our -- our budget because, if anything, we have scaled back off of it. So if there -- some of these other possibilities are going to have to be pursued, I think, for us to be able to reach the conclusion that I think everyone would like to see. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Thank you. Commissioner Judah. COMMISSIONER JUDAH: Yeah. The whole reason at the outset with the design of the widening of Bonita Beach Road that we incorporated medians was with the idea in mind that we were going to landscape, that it wasn't just going to be, you know, a suicide lane like we have on some of the other roads in the county. And with that in mind, there was certainly interest as demonstrated by a number of folks in the private sector, such as Floyd Lucky who was just mentioned, who really wants to make a commitment in contributing material and -- and making sure that we have an aesthetically pleasing corridor to the beach. We certainly want to join in partnership with Collier County. And I'm curious; do y'all vol -- have a set of voluntary or involuntary MSTUs to make sure you get sufficient funds for the maintenance of -- COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: It requires 50 percent of the property owners along the corridor, and if we get -- get 50 percent, those who don't want, that's too bad. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Typically we generally move ahead at two-thirds or more. I mean, you -- you either have support or you don't. If it's right at 50 percent, you probably -- COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: It gets a little hairy but -- COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: But, yeah, it's a taxing district that is not voluntary. Once it's established, all -- all the properties participate. COMMISSIONER JUDAH: I mean, I'm just amazed, and I'm pleased to see that you have the business community within Collier County willing to, you know, get involved with a taxing district such as that nature to pay for the maintenance of the roadside landscaping. We -- In Bonita Springs particularly the business community has gotten really involved in helping out with -- with the landscaping we see along Bonita Beach Road, and we certainly would like to extend it all the way to the beach. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Ray, let's you and I get together and -- and talk about that and work with Mr. Church. I think -- Because our districts abut in that area -- COMHISSIONER JUDAH: Yeah. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I think that with a little effort we can bring those businesses together. COMMISSIONER JUDAH: Tremendous. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Good idea. Thank you, Tim. Further comments or questions? Thank you, Scott. We'll go on to the last item on the agenda which is item number six, regional water authority. Commissioner Judah. COHHISSIONER JUDAH: Mr. Chairman, I'll be quick. This was a request of, I believe, the Bonita Springs Chamber of Commerce. We have Archie Grant here, a professional engineer of Johnson Engineering and also -- I don't know if Bob Hardy is here or not of natural -- there he is -- with -- he is a natural resource engineer. And before I ask those two gentlemen to step forward, real quickly, the regional water supply authority was originally set up that incorporated the municipalities and Lee County to come up with a way in which to provide for bulk supply of raw water. We have since changed that mission to basically be a planning and coordinating agency with the private utilities to manage our water supplies, protect our well fields, facilitate permitting, and help with overall again management of our surface water. So with that, if Archie or Bob could step forward and perhaps give a briefing on where we are now, and if there's any questions. MR. GRANT: Thank you. Archie Grant. Very brief -- I know that's the most important when you're last on the agenda. Ray, you covered most of it, and we have some handouts. In 1990 Lee County regional water supply authority began operations. Its mission at that time was to develop a regional water master plan. That's been done. Among its other missions, well field protection program. That's been accomplished. The majority of the funding came from, I believe, the water management district. Master plan development, it was a two-year effort. It produced a document that was the first countywide comprehensive water supply plan that prepared the planning for the year 2030. Among the benefits of the plan, it shows the benefits of the economy of scale. It allows for interconnects between utilities, plan those on emergency basis, and I think some of those are already under way, and they would have probably been accomplished between the utilities, but this somewhat expedited that. Other projects, they have an ASR project right now in Lee County, Corkscrew well field. This is a potential as far as pulling the water, putting it down, bringing it back. I wish I could say that we could put enough down to relieve the flooding problem, but you're talking about different quantities, but that's something that we certainly ought to look at. Of course, we have the resource out of place, too much water in the summer, not enough in the winter. So we ought to try to capitalize on that. Again, I said I'd be brief. Bob has copies of pretty much an outline of the work that's been accomplished to date. He also has a copy of the new mission statement which Mr. Hotstetler will certainly furnish you. If there's no questions, that covers it. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Questions? MR. GRANT: We'll have these up front. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Great. Thank you. The last item on the agenda is commissioner items. Anything from any commissioners to be brought to the board? COHMISSIONER JUDAH: I have one. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: The two boards? Yes, Commissioner Judah. COHMISSIONER JUDAH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You all are aware, of course, there's a tax equity issue and another long and hard struggle with the legislature. Evidently the -- the most recent compromise is Willy Logan, the chairman of finance and taxation committee with the House is already floating an amendment -- a constitutional amendment to allow each individual county to impl -- a local option tax equity. I don't know where that's going to go, but I -- I understand Collier's looking at basically an interim governmental service fee. Perhaps maybe you -- you could help enlighten, I know, me and maybe help with our board better understand how we might consider what you all evidently are proposing to adopt and -- and perhaps maybe explain how that, indeed, shows a way in which we can ensure that we're no longer subsidizing new development but that's not necessarily construed as another impact fee. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Neil probably. MR. DORRILL: We -- We're pursuing two things in addition to what we're calling the first-year service fee. We would charge that as a condition of the issuance of the certificate of occupancy for both residential, commercial, and industrial property, and the assumption that we are working on is that we would charge it on a per-square-foot basis because, otherwise, you're going to be accused of the subterfuge if you try and assign a value associated with construction permit value or anything resembling what might arguably be assessed value and a subterfuge for a partial-year assessment where we don't have the authority to do that. The only place where we've ever seen that this has been done in Florida at the county level is Palm Beach County, and we do have a copy of their ordinance. There was a management study that applied the reasonable nexus test that is required as part of that that we have also obtained from Palm Beach County. I want to say -- I think we told our board it was done in the early '90s. It was proposed when the public hearing was defeated as a result of very strong lobby on the part of the building and development community there, but we are pursuing that. The board has authorized and adopted that as part of our fiscal policy that would go into effect on October 1. I might add we're also pursuing charging utility franchise fees on regulating utilities as a non-charter county because we found in seeing the desire on the part of Santa Rosa and Escambia County to do the same thing for both electricity and telephone, and it's our intention to also put that into effect on October 1 as part of the county manager's tentative budget that will be submitted here in about two months. COMHISSIONER JUDAH: Let me compliment you on your very proactive position you're taking. Can we have perhaps copies of the documents you're referring to with regards to the interim governmental service fee, I guess? Is that what you call it? MR. DORRILL: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Consider it in the mail, Ray. COMHISSIONER JUDAH: Thank you. COMMISSIONER MANNING: Are you going to bring this up in a commission meeting down the road? COMMISSIONER JUDAH: And you're going to -- you're going to -- you're going to support them. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Anything else we've got before us today? COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: I've got one item. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Yes, Commissioner Matthews. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: It's come to my attention -- and hopefully Commissioner Norris can help me with it -- but I believe the last week of the -- of the legislature is going to be vacant now, and it's normally Collier County's position on that this -- this time, and Commissioner Constantine who has left won't know until the end of this week if he can attend to that or not, and I would just see if we could get a commitment from one of you to pick that up. COMMISSIONER MANNING: I'll be up there anyway. I will not be utilizing the apartment, but I will be up there. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: But someone -- someone will be there? COMMISSIONER MANNING: Right. Putting the thumb in the dike so we don't get killed. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Yeah, because that last week is a mess '- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's the one that counts. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: -- and there's an awful lot of stuff going on. COMMISSIONER COY: When is that last week? COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: It finishes May 4. COMMISSIONER MANNING: Well, so they think. They don't know. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: One piece we're a little concerned about -- COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: The city issue. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: -- is the city issue where the City of Naples has asked our legislative delegation to pursue bills that would limit the county's ability of eminent domain regarding beach access and beach parking within the boundaries of any incorporated area within Collier County. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Or any county. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Or any county. So if -- if the bill passes for Collier, guess what? You know, start looking for other counties to ask for it. Now, granted, the City of Naples is pretty much built out, and it's not like the county is sitting there with baited breath to go spend $10 million an acre, you know, to purchase beach areas. But, again, it would be an issue in which a small municipality governs the greater good of the county. COMMISSIONER MANNING: If that bill hasn't been filed, then it's too late. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It has been. COMMISSIONER MANNING: No, it hasn't. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It's not been? COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: We were told that it has been filed. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: We were told it had been. COMMISSIONER MANNING: Well, the eminent domain legislation issue is dead up there. I was up there -- when was that? Last week. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Last week? Okay. The report I had before that -- I got a report that it was dead. Then I heard it was back alive again. So, again, we'll verify that, but if it does breed life -- COMMISSIONER MANNING: Let me know, please, soon. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: If it does breed life, I think it has greater application in Collier County. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Take a bag of wooden stakes and a hammer with you. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Anything else to come before us today? CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: We're adjourned. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Seeing nothing, we're adjourned. There being no further business for the Good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by Order of the Chair at 3:11 p.m. BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS CONTROL JOHN C. NORRIS, CHAIRPERSON ATTEST: DWIGHT E. BROCK, CLERK These minutes approved by the Board on as presented or as corrected TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF DONOVAN COURT REPORTING BY: Christine E. Whitfield, RPR