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BCC Minutes 03/13/1995 B (Budget) BUDGET MEETING OF MARCH 13, 1995, OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COHMISSIONERS Naples, Florida, Hatch 13, 1995 LET IT BE REHEHBERED, that the Board of County Commissioners in and for the County of Collier, and also acting as the Board of Zoning Appeals and as the governing board(s) of such special districts as have been created according to law and having conducted business herein, met on this date at 8:45 a.m. In SPECIAL SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRPERSON: Bettye J. Matthews VICE-CHAIRMAN: John C. Norris Pamela S. Hac'Kie Timothy L. Hancock ALSO PRESENT: Neil Dorrill, County Manager Michael Smykowski, Acting Budget Director CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. We're in the budget workshop hearings for our 1995, '96 budget I guess, isn't it? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Uh-huh. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Boy, time is escaping. MR. OCHS: Time flies. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Administrative services is first. Mr. Ochs? MR. SHYKOWSKI: Leo, before we get started, I'd just like to remind the board, after we review each of the proposed programs within each of the departments, the board will be assigning -- I left a sheet up with each of you. There's one up for program rankings. Mandatory, again, that's programs required by federal or state law, the local judicial order, necessary for health and safety or necessary to maintain capital asset value. Typically that applies to the base level of service. The second ranking is essential, programs deemed by the board to be essential to the operation of the county. All programs ranked essential are included in the county manager's recommended line item budget. Third ranking is discretionary, programs that are neither mandated nor considered to be essential. These are included in the county manager's recommended budget subject to available revenues. And then the fourth category is not recommended. And if the board makes -- makes that decision, any program that is listed as not recommended would not be included in the line item budget for our workshop purposes in June. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. MR. SHYKOWSKI: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: How does -- how does -- this budget process that's been prepared here, how does this relate to performance budgeting? I'm not sure. MR. SHYKOWSKI: Within each of the departments previously, what we've done is attempted to identify outcome measures for each of the programs in terms of either -- both a work load indicator for the program and a -- a performance element in terms of how well it's done, how quickly it will be done, what the customer satisfaction level is, et cetera. So this is kind of the first step in -- in an effort to develop a complete performance budgeting system in which we would ultimately perhaps reward -- reward department directors based on, you know, their performance in meeting these objectives. So what we've attempted to do -- and admin. services is actually a good example -- we've attempted to -- while we've had varying -- admin. services is a good -- more of a -- one of the pilot ones as Mr. Dotrill indicated in his meeting with the board I believe in early January, that to do it comprehensively would be difficult. We have endeavored, however, to get each of the divisions to at least begin measuring outcomes of each program so that down the road rather than just doing one or two divisions this year, we'd at least get people looking at measuring outcomes of their -- of each of their programs, again, so that down the road everyone will kind of be falling in line with -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I'm well aware that performance budgeting's very difficult. And it is one of the things that's truly zero based to get it started. And I'm not seeing zero based here. So I'm -- I'm questioning what the likelihood is that we're going to get to where we want to go. And I don't see any sort of gain sharing at this point built into this which would, of course, eliminate our need to do merit increases if we run into a gain sharing program. So I '- I'm -- I -- I know we have to start slow with this because it's labor intensive. But I'm not sure that I see that what's been done here is much more than an -- an attempt to incorporate a word with a little bit of dressing on it. MR. DORRILL: What -- what we had indicated to you that we preferred to do -- and I thought the board concurred with that in your workshop in January; if you didn't, you didn't tell me otherwise -- was to go through this level and have you select several departments as a result of this effort that then you wanted to see actual performance budgeting and gain sharing when their line item budgets come through, rationale for that being that the program budget reviews are based on current year dollars. And until you get into June and you see what the fiscal '96 dollars are, we're just -- this is money that's already authorized. And I thought that what we had agreed to was that we would go through this effort, that we would expand on the outcome measures for every department, and then let the board select those departments that they wanted to see actual performance budgets for in June. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I thought we were going to look for volunteers to get this started in order to get a -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's what I thought it too. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- starting point. MR. DORRILL: I think we probably have too. I think this division, I think public service division are the two to start. But we need some indication from the board as to what departments in particular that you'd like to see. This division in public services would be two good divisions to do that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: A whole -- a whole division you're going to start this off on rather than a -- MR. DORRILL: No, I think you need to pick certain departments. But overall the administrative service division and the public service division would seem to be the best two places to start. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: What I'm trying to get straight is for -- for this week's -- for this week the process is no different than it was last year and the years before. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: No. We have more information than we've had in the -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: We do? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah. We have more. MR. SMYKOWSKI: Rather than focusing just specifically on the programs, this is focusing on -- in the work load and performance measures you're focusing on the outcomes of the programs, what are the results to be achieved. And I think that's a major difference from prior years. Rather than just talking we need 100,000 for this program, the focus is if you fund this program, this is what will be achieved within the program. And I think as a first step of -- of ultimately incorporating a gain sharing effort, you have to have a baseline in terms of this is a -- the typical level of performance after a two- or three-year period. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. I just want to set the road straight as to where we're going because I'm -- I'm not sure that I saw here what we had said that we wanted to see, but I'm -- I'm willing to move forward and look at June. MR. SMYKOWSKI: I think we have to be careful. Part of this -- and that's the reason we had everyone at least attempt to get some work load and performance indicators within each of the program packages whereas some may be a pilot is ultimately if you're going to reward department directors or departments through some gain sharing mechanism, you have to be sure that what you're rewarding is an appropriate level of performance. And in some cases, you know, if we have not developed performance measures in the past, the purpose is to at least begin developing the baseline so that you will know ultimately that if they achieve level A versus level B, that is -- that is deemed worthwhile of gain sharing. I think that -- that is an important aspect of this as well. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. Let's move forward and start the process then. MR. OCHS: Thank you. Good morning, Madam Chairman, members of the board. For the record, Leo Ochs, administrative services administrator. The first packet you have before you I believe is the administrative section of our division primarily responsible for division-wide planning and financial management, budgeting, operating results, staff performance management development, policy development at the division level. I have two budgeted FTEs currently in that section. That would be myself and Mrs. Brubaker, my administrative secretary. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So those two FTEs are you and your -- your assistant. That's you. MS. BRUBAKER: Yes. MR. OCHS: Yes, Commissioner. That's correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I have a question. Your description here says that you meet with your department directors. Is that weekly or monthly or how -- how often? Do you meet them -- with them all at one time or individually? MR. OCHS: I do -- we have two basic formalized communications between myself and the department directors. We meet once a month as -- as a staff the third Thursday of each month. And then I also have individual one-on-one meetings with each of my department directors on a biweekly basis. In other words, every other week I meet individually with each one of the department directors. And we have a published agenda where we go over our -- our work plans in each one of those operating departments. So those are kind of the two formalized ways that we communicate and then, of course, on a day-to-day basis try to get out into the departments and out into the field with respect to fleet and facilities as much as I can. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Can you give me some idea, Mr. Ochs, what your average week is like? MR. OCHS: My average week? In terms of meetings? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Meetings, what you expect to accomplish -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Show up for work at eight. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: What you expect to accomplish in -- in a given week. MR. OCHS: Well, first of all, we usually plan our weeks around Tuesdays as most of the management folks do I guess in terms of the board agenda; make sure that if there's any items for the meeting that we're obviously thoroughly prepared and available to answer any of the board's questions. We sit down, Mrs. Brubaker and I, first thing Monday morning and go through the calendar, go through our schedule of meetings that I have and -- so that's kind of the first order of business, make sure we have everything scheduled properly and then proceed through the week. I try to do a little bit of division-wide planning. I try to set aside at least a half hour at the end of each day, and then we work through any of our work plan objectives during the week. I could be out in the field, out in fleet, or doing a field tour with facilities management from week to week. And the rest of it is pretty much general management. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So you're saying you do a fair amount of hands-on management then. MR. OCHS: Yeah, I certainly try to, Commissioner. I guess the folks behind me could attest to that one way or the other. But I certainly try to get out of the office as much as I can, as much as time will allow, of course. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. Any other questions? COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Just translated to English, what -- what your -- because this is all new to me so this is the first time I'm trying to figure out who does what in this whole county. This is my shot at trying to figure that out. You're the -- you're -- you're the administrative overseer of the personnel, equipment -- MR. OCHS: Facilities, computers, purchasing, insurance, employee benefits, et cetera. Our job, as we see it, Commissioner, is to take care of all of those administrative and support items so that the people that you hire to work on the line in the operating level don't have to worry about those things and can concentrate on their primary job. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Gotcha. Okay. MR. OCHS: That's kind of it in a nutshell, frankly. MR. SHYKOWSKI: On page 1 there is a -- an organizational chart of the entire division that will give you -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Thank you. I was looking at that. MR. SHYKOWSKI: Based on '95 adopted budget, Mr. Ochs' division encompasses almost 24 million dollars of operating budgets across all his departments. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Do you have any questions, John? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: (Commissioner shook head.) CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: For Commissioner Hac'Kie, now is the point that we would what we call rank this as to whether it's mandatory, essential, or discretionary. And since they don't have a base level here, certainly your activities are not mandatory. They're not state mandated or federally mandated to us. MR. OCHS: That's correct. MR. SHYKOWSKI: That's correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So to describe this as mandated would be inappropriate. (Commissioner Hancock entered the proceedings.) CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: To describe it as essential, maybe. The administrative department without a hierarchical form of management may well fall apart, so we are at the point of -- of ranking this either essential or discretionary. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And is there -- is there a process later where -- God forbid I don't want to do more budget work than I have to. But of course this is an essential department. Of course it is. It has to be here. Do we ever talk about what these subparts of it are? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yes. We'll get to -- right now we're just talking about Mr. Ochs and his secretary. As we move down through the pages, we'll handle each department. MR. DORRILL: We're going to have the same discussion, and he'll have the various folks come up from the audience, each department director, real property, human resources -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I see. MR. DORRILL: -- facility, fleet management. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. MR. DORRILL: And they'll give you an overview. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We'll have our chance. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. So you start with -- MR. DORRILL: You're going to rank every one of them. MR. SMYKOWSKI: Typically in an operating department there will be multiple programs rather than, you know -- administrative oversight is not the ideal -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Description. MR. SMYKOWSKI: -- department for this process. But, you know, purchasing where they're doing three, four, five different various tasks -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. MR. DORRILL: Let me just -- just so everybody knows where we're headed, turn over to page 6 real quick. Page 6 is just a subsection department of administrative services for public affairs. You can take a quick look at this and see that they're not proposing anything new for the coming year because their column for total personnel and projected dollars are both at 100 percent. A little later on you're going to see some other departments whose bottom line may be 107 percent or 115 percent -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Or 85 maybe? MR. DORRILL: Seldom. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And the line that says base -- MR. DORRILL: And what you'll see is anything new is going to be -- there will be a different subtotal for anything that's projected that's new. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: In the line that says base, what does this -- what does that mean? MR. OCHS: Which page? COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Any of them. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Base level of service. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Base level of service. That would be if something is mandatory. MR. DORRILL: MAndatory under either state or federal law or mandatory to maintain current asset value of something that you own. For example, when you get over to facilities management in a little bit, you are going to see a very big base level budget because not to maintain or do custodial work on any of the buildings that you own is just idiocy, so then they'll have a big base level. Here there is no base level because public affairs is that office that otherwise runs the switchboard and handles the Kandu program. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Gotcha. So base is -- really equals mandatory. MR. DORRILL: Yes. MR. SMYKOWSKI: Yes. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Okay. I'm just trying to get a key to the -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And we either must do it because fate -- state or federal law requires us to or our own good conscience of operating a business requires us to. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. Thank you. I just needed a baseline. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I have a question. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Hancock. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Neil, do we have the ability to tell -- let's assume on page 6 this department has actually been operating -- instead of the five people has been operating with four with a vacant position. Is that pointed out at all in this process? In other words, how do we know there is or is not a vacant position in those five that are allocated? MR. DORRILL: You wouldn't know. You wouldn't know at this level. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: So if a department's been running well with four people instead of the anticipated or expected five, there's no way for this board to -- to see that and possibly either cut a position or redirect it? MR. DORRILL: It's not currently part of this format. There is a separate list that we maintain at all times for vacant positions and the length of time that they had been vacant. And if you would each like a copy of that just as we're going through these so -- and again, this department is very small. But what if you get to facilities and you see three vacant maintenance worker positions or something like that and they've been vacant for six months? That would be a good time to ask that department director, you know, what current level of service there may be. You won't see it here, though. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Can we do this then, because I like that question, when each department head comes to tell us about what's going on? For instance, public affairs is next. And if the coordinator for that could tell us if any one of these five positions are currently vacant and how long they've -- they've been vacant, and then we'll be -- be current with -- with what's going on. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I'd like that. MR. DORRILL: Tom, can you get us a copy of the current -- MR. OCHS: We know that obviously very well, so we -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: All right. So it's time -- it's time for us to rank the administration of the administrative services department or division. And I -- I for one feel that it's essential. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Essential. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Essential. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Essential. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So we come up with four essentials on that one. Thank you, Mr. Ochs. MR. OCHS: Thank you. Next program budget is public affairs. Mrs. Brubaker is up here because she not only takes care of me as the administrative secretary, but she also doubles up as the coordinator for this office of the division. We have five positions, five FTEs budgeted and currently filled. Three of those are devoted to our public information and complaint information operations of the -- of the section. And the other two process all of the county's interoffice mail and outgoing mail as well. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Questions? MR. OCHS: On page 7 we have some of the work load and then on page 8 some of the performance measures for this particular section. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Has it always been that the administrative secretary for your office has been the public affairs coordinator? MR. OCHS: Yes, as long as I've been here. Two years ago we assumed responsibility for the mail center from the clerk of courts. So those two FTEs were added into this public affairs office at that time. MR. DORRILL: The only real change to that is that in the event of a declared emergency of some type, Mr. Ochs then assumes the responsibility of public information officer on behalf of the county. He is the county's chief spokesperson in the event of emergency, and his claim to fame was having appeared on Good Morning America several years ago in the midst of Hurricane Andrew. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: What was the emergency? MR. OCHS: Hurricane Andrew. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Oh, okay. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So you're also our PIO so I know who to call. MR. OCHS: Right, right. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And the performance standard, this is something that's new, Bettye, is -- is that before you wouldn't have had this page 8, performance, that now we know that they're -- that the standard they're setting for themselves is that 95 percent of complaints are routed for action within an hour and 100 percent within an hour and a half, that 100 percent of their media releases are -- in other words, if they meet these performance standards and this were, for example, a department that we're going to get into this bonus program, whatever the word for it actually is, that's what we would use to measure their success. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, the gain sharing concept comes under establishing a budget based on zero based budgeting techniques and -- and the programs that they're to accomplish on that budget. And along the road you establish a minimum criteria which will be an acceptable level of performance. If they're able to meet that -- that acceptable level of performance and spend less money doing so, the gain sharing kicks in there. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And so at what point will we review this performance standard and say, yeah, this is one? That's later? This is June? MR. DORRILL: I would say that as we're going through here, if you see -- and again, this is a very small department and fairly limited in their -- their mission. But if this is one that you would like to see more of a performance budget with some gain sharing projections -- because you're either going to look at service implications or unit cost implications or both. You're going to say like 95 percent of all citizen complaints routed for direct action within one hour. And then what you usually like to see is a cost associated with that, that unit measure. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I see. MR. DORRILL: And this is probably not the best one to do it. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. Okay. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. Dorrill, as we go through this process, are we going to see the -- the majority or the bulk of these departments are getting 100 percent of what they had before? Those first two we've seen so far have -- are at 100 percent level. MR. DORRILL: They're at 100 percent. And, in fact, by the time you then see -- for example, if you go back -- and let's just focus on public affairs for a moment. Public affairs in '95 for the -- for the funds that you have allocated are 140,000. That's their approved or adopted budget. Now, if you take into account the budget directions that you gave in January when the board adopted the fiscal policy, when you see this same budget again, I'm just going to say it's going to be about a hundred and fifty, hundred and sixty thousand dollars, somewhere in there, because they've got to go back and recalculate their cost based on the salaries. This department is really nothing more than salaries, maybe some printing, maybe some photoprocessing, things like that. But they're going to factor in whatever the board's budget instructions were. So when you see this same budget in June, it's going to be higher by whatever function that you've authorized for pay increases, for example. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So, for example, if -- if we're worried about how we're gonna pay for things, it's at this point that it's appropriate to look, for example, at eleven monthly newsletters and see if that's something we ought to be spending money on? MR. DORRILL: And/or say, gee, is it really worth the $56,000 to distribute the mail throughout this whole complex and/or what other alternatives do we have, i.e., what would it cost us to send someone's secretary or an office assistant every day to a single location and have to sort and find their own mail and those types of questions because otherwise unless -- where's the -- do we have one this morning that's going to be not recommended? You may see some things from me later on. MR. OCHS: Purchasing. MR. DORRILL: Okay. Purchasing is one. You're going to see one of these items -- where it says staff rank, you may see not recommended off to the far right there. Anything that says not recommended by me is either something new or something we've been doing, to answer Commissioner Norris's question, where I'm -- I'm going to recommend against it. And unless then you put it back in, it's coming out of the line item budget that you see in June. It won't appear. If I'm saying not recommended, it won't appear in June when you see the line item budget. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And if -- if we had in mind -- not -- not that I do, but if we had in mind that, okay, we've got to spend 20 percent less than we spent last year, now is the time when we have to find that 20 percent. MR. DORRILL: Preferably. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Start identifying. MR. DORRILL: For no other reason than once the line item budgets, the real dollar budgets, are submitted to you, we can still do it. But rather than the old budget adage here -- if I just go back and take 3 percent off of everybody's budget across the board, it's better for you to go back and cancel programs in their entirety or some major function and say, well, it's not worth 56,000 to have an internal mail function. Let's -- let's eliminate that entire program. MR. SHYKOWSKI: If -- at the end of this process you'll have a grouping number of things mandated, a number essential, a number discretionary. At this point if you rank something as discretionary, we would include it in the line item budget. If at the time in June you look at the line item budgets and the millage rate is unacceptable rather than, as Neil alluded to, taking 3 percent off each department in the general fund, we would prefer that you look at the whole grouping of programs that were ranked discretionary and in your policy making role make that determination of which program would be eliminated. And -- and through this process you would also understand the service implications, who the affected customer would be if that service were not provided. So youwll have to weigh priorities between parks versus libraries, and you may have to make that hard call between a discretionary program in parks versus a discretionary program in libraries or real property, purchasing, whatever the case may be. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Like -- like, for example -- and I don't think I'll have to do this every single time, guys, so please don't think I'm dragging this out. I just need to get the program. The media releases or monthly newsletters, if I wanted to say I think those are discretionary but citizen complaints are essential, how do I cast my vote that way? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, that way we start talking about the programs, and I've got questions, too, in those same general -- general areas. If we're looking at performance outcome, now's the time. MR. DORRILL: If under public information and what not or item that's shown as staff rank number 1 here, you know, if the board wanted to split those between, you know, actual press releases and media releases and distinguish between the number of monthly employee newsletters or the printing of the annual report and those types of things, you'll have the ability to talk about that and split them. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Because like one thing -- is the annual report something that is internal? I mean, are we required to produce that for anybody? MR. DORRILL: Current -- currently the county manager's ordinance requires there to be an annual report of the government produced for the board and the citizens of Collier County. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Because I'm always proud of it. I think it looks really pretty. It looks really fancy, and I'm always curious, how much did this cost? It always occurs to me that this could be something ought to be on Xerox paper or something instead of -- MR. DORRILL: And many, many years ago it was, and we've had different formats. We've tried to do it on newsprint one year, and we've had it offset print other years. But that's -- that's a great little mini program question to ask. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Okay. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. Are we ready to move -- move forward? Okay. I for one have a few questions on the public info and complaint services, and that is under the performance area, it says that you -- 95 percent of citizen complaints are routed within one hour and 100 percent within an hour and a half. We had 202 complaints. That works out to about four per week on average. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Where did you get that info, 202 complaints? COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: That's on page 7. I get that many, and I have one assistant. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: My -- my secretary gets four complaints a day, and I'm -- COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I get that many an hour. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And I'm just -- I'm a little bit confused if our secretaries -- I mean Commissioner Norris -- Commissioner Hancock and myself, we get that many in a single day -- Commissioner Norris in an hour he says -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I get that many faxed to my office, my law firm. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Why -- why are our secretaries handling these and not your office? COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Or why do we have this office if our secretaries are doing a perfectly good job of handling these? MR. OCHS: Well, again, the -- let's go back and maybe differentiate. We've got three FTEs assigned to that -- that staff rank 1. One of those is the main switchboard operator, okay, that sits down in the lobby. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: That's Judy? MR. OCHS: That's Judy. That's correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah, but -- but I did my arithmetic on that, too, and if we allow 1,800 hours as the normal work year of a full-time employee allowing for vacation and sick and holidays and so forth, I think you all are using like what? 1,750 or something like that? It's a little more generous than we might need to be. But even if I use 1,750, we're only talking about 1.4 people to man that desk down there. That leaves 1.6 people to handle 4 telephone complaints per week, 6 media releases -- 7 media releases per week, and 11 monthly newsletters. MR. OCHS: Well, some of the measures that we didn't show here, for example, are the tours of county facilities depending on the time of the year when all the schools want to come down and tour the facilities or any of the photos that are needed for any of the publications are all done by one of the staff people -- one of the three people in this -- in this particular staff rank who may be out in the field doing photos for any number of departments. Again, I mentioned the tours, assistance with the media releases. And also they back up obviously both the switchboard operator when that person may be off. And they also back up the people in the mail center when they may be off and -- and cover for other secretarial vacations or other lost time so that we don't have to hire temps. to do that but -- MS. BRUBAKER: If I might interject a minute please, the Kandu, as you know, has really gained us a lot of success in terms of the customers being aware that we do have a program now that's structured where they can call one central location as opposed to calling the board office or the manager's office or any other agencies. What we haven't factored into this is -- are the number of calls that come into our main switchboard. And I asked Mrs. Jaeger to do a survey. She conducted this several weeks ago, a two-week evaluation of the calls and the citizens that come in. So those figures are not incorporated into this. This is basically the calls that come into that 8801 line, the Kandu line. What we're finding out, in addition to the citizen complaints, wewre getting more and more people that are calling in for general information. And thatws why youwve seen the number rise on the general information calls. I think when we did this we just focused on a couple areas, but we didnwt focus on the scope of what public affairs does in addition to citizen complaints and the media press releases, the formatting and the proofing of that. We do welcome packets which go out to the community when people call in or people write into the local paper and they say, we want to know information on your community. We have a welcome packet wewve devised. We do the interpreter brochure. We did a program that we go out into our own employees, and we ask them who are bilingual, who would like to assist our customers that come into the community, that come into the county on county-related business. So we have that and a pamphlet to back that. We have the speakerws bureau guide where people come in and call into our agency. They want speakers to come out to their local organizations, so wewre responsible for getting that accomplished. We have a help -- how may I help you directory where, for example, you come in and youwre new to the organization. You donlt know who the employees are. You donlt know what division operators under what guise, and so we have that spelled out in the how may I help you directory. So we do directories. We do the boards that are outside. Welre responsible for keeping information updated when citizens call in and theylre put on hold. Therels more to public affairs than citizen complaints. And I donlt want to bore you with a lot of little incidental things, but I think there are a lot of things that are happening down there maybe youlre not really aware of. We have the open house thatls coming up. Thatls every year, and welre responsible for seeing that thatls incorporated. COMMISSIONER MACIKIE: What are they for? MS. BRUBAKER: Iim sorry? COMMISSIONER MACIKIE: Who comes to open houses? MS. BRUBAKER: The citizens hopefully. We meet out -- welve aligned ourselves with the Tropicool Fest. And in May again weill be meeting at the Coastland Mall, and the citizens have an opportunity to come and visit us at our booths and our displays -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That was really nice last year. MS. BRUBAKER: -- and see what county governmentls all about. And itls off campus. The first two years we were at the museum where we felt more people would be out at the mall and would per chance upon seeing us. Welve had a great success with that. So there are other functions that we do besides citizen complaints. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I guess then that when we get to the nitty-gritty of the work load and the performance that all of your work load is not appropriately stated -- MR. OCHS: No. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- in here. MS. BRUBAKER: Oh, no. We were told to just highlight a few of the main areas. But again, we are responsible for the TDD lines. Welre responsible for -- for example, I meet with the switchboard operators from other organizations. We have a monthly meeting. And we meet to better communicate within our own agencies. And sometimes people have information over here, but other people that need it don't have that. So we've gone out and tried to develop ways of better communicating what Collier County is all about. So there are a lot of things that are taking place. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, I think that probably the other board members and me in particular after our earlier discussions of how we were going to operate our budget sessions this year were expecting this kind of thing to be provided to us in our back-up material because this -- at least it was my understanding that what we were going to do is try to justify the existence of all these departments. And a little synopsis is not going to do that. So I think everybody's department when you make your presentation better be prepared to -- to explain maybe in a little more depth what it is you're doing and why it needs to be done because what we talked about was if you can't justify what you're doing and if what you're doing is not any longer needed, then we want to know that also. So I think maybe that's where some of this -- these questions are coming from. MR. OCHS: And that's fine except that, you know, I must say or confess that we from the staff level did not get perhaps that exact same direction or we would have been much more detailed or elaborate in listing an exhaustive list of work load issues instead of just a couple that were indicative of -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I agree with that. I think what we're trying to identify this year especially if we're going to revolve into performance budgeting, we're looking for programs that just aren't necessary anymore. MR. OCHS: Sure, sure. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Or programs that are at a discretionary level where we might want to go back in at a later point in time and say, jeez, we really can't afford to do this program -- MR. OCHS: I understand. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- and be able to zap the program. And when we get programs or -- or work load measures like this where it's so intermingled that we really can't identify what's being done, it gets very, very difficult. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It looks to me get a big red pen and go through some of these because this seems like to me like really a wonderful, wonderful thing to be doing if only we could afford it. I mean, when I'm looking I'm thinking about do we need this work release center, or do we need slip brochures? Brochures are out. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah, we've got tough decisions. MR. DORRILL: You're not going to get any disagreement. I've got a problem with us trying go back at this point and provide more broad information. This is one of our small divisions, and his program budget package this morning is 85 pages. And I in good conscience wouldn't expect board members to read any or all of this, much less anything else that we give you unless you're going to have good questions and challenge the people who are here and make some notes as we go through here for things like -- Ms. Mac'Kie has said in terms of what's nice to have and what do we have to have and what are we mandated to have. My suggestion to you is we need to move through this level fairly quickly, and you need to be flagging and making notes to yourself. And then when we get to the end of this, you can say, gee, we've got this -- we've got a list of 30 things that we think are discretionary, and we want to then know what the total dollar volume of everything that we ranked discretionary or essential. And let's go back and then nitpick those things and see if we can't jerk some real program money out of this budget before we go to the line item. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I hear what you're saying. The problem I think that we're going to be getting into if -- if we try to move the way that -- that you're talking of doing, we don't know what the programs are that are listed here. We just don't know. The -- the -- the work load that's been listed here appears to be rather minor compared to what they're actually doing. And -- and I don't know how we -- we as a board can even make our notes of what's essential, what's mandatory, and what we'd just as soon not do if we don't know what they are. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I'll tell you what -- what my thought -- I'm going to my desk right now to get a pack of those yellow stickies. And if it hadn't -- if there's not adequate information in here to say this is necessary, then it gets flagged. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Do you want somebody to bring you some yellow stickies? COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That'd be nice and some more coffee while you're at it. MR. OCHS: Well, we did try to be a little more inclusive in the description of program package, that narrative. But we did not assign work load measures in every one of those areas listed or alluded to in the narrative program description into work load and performance measures. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It seems to me if we took a hard line at this point and we said, we are really going to be serious about what is mandatory and essential and not -- and a lot of things are discretionary so that then they come back and have to justify it and then they have to really, really make a case like what you're talking about, John, which is what I think ought to happen. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah. Ten minutes ago, Mr. Dotrill, you were telling us that now is the time that we look at programs. And -- and a few minutes ago you came back and say, we've got to move through this really -- you know, fairly rapidly. We can't do both. It's going to be real tough. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: In the interest -- in the interest of -- of getting both done, moving ahead and flagging things, if you look through the description of program package, there are some things in there that may stand out to you and say, wait a second. This is a luxury item. Info and welcome packets, you can get those from five, six sources all over the county. And most of them are probably done in a more applicable nature than what we do as a county. You know, I personally flagged that. The interpreter's program brochure, I want to know more about that before we continue producing that. MR. DORRILL: That was my point about, you know, we've -- we've given you sort of the information that Mr. Ochs has -- has alluded to. We gave you the main program measures as we see them for which there is specific work activity. And that's my comment about, you know, we need -- we need to work our way through this, but we're more than happy to answer -- if you want the description of what the departments are doing to be a little more expansive than it has been in the last three years, I'm more than happy to ask the department directors to do that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I'd even like to know information like on the speaker's bureau, how much time is -- how much of our FTE's time is spent on that in a given year and then how many times is it used and taken advantage of. I mean if -- if -- if we can shift that kind of program to the private sector -- and in many -- many governments the speaker's bureau is in the private sector -- why not? COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Absolutely. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Not to mention most of these organizations know who they want to come talk to them already. They know whose back side's in the fire already. So I guess I'm looking for how do we want to walk through this now because do we want to walk through and say -- do we make individual decision on each one saying I want this, this, this removed? Do we take a consensus? Do we -- if we flag it and come back to it later, are we wasting our time here today? COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: The best I could do on this department -- on this section today is D, the whole thing is discretionary. From the information I have, the whole thing's discretionary. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, fine. Let's all go along with that, and let's move on to the next one. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I'm ready to do that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, I think we have -- we have one and a half FTE that's essential. And that's the person that answers the phone and directs phone call downstairs, so that's one -- one piece of this. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Maybe we use discretionary as to say let's come back and look at this. And if you get a discretionary, you're going to want to justify the living heck out of every single thing you do, or we're going to start yanking stuff out. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's the way I'd like to go about it. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: That's the way I'm looking at it, so we got three Ds. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We got three Ds for the entire program. MR. OCHS: Including the mail service. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Everything. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We want better justification for the whole -- whole process. MR. DORRILL: And that's -- we're perfectly willing to -- to do that. We've had a similar discussion I don't know if it was last year or the year before about, you know, in the age of voice mail and automatic direct dialing, do you still want to have warm body friendly voices answering the phone when they call Collier County government. Two years ago the answer is yes. If the answer next year is going to be no, let them look it up and dial it theirself, that is certainly that type of program decision that you ought to make. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I guess -- MR. DORRILL: Ninety percent of them are going to call the Board of County Commissioners' office and say, I got a problem. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: They do that anyway. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: They do anyway. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: They do it anyway. MR. DORRILL: I guarantee you they don't because otherwise you wouldn't have a main switchboard. You may think that they do. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: A lot of them do. MR. DORRILL: But if I sent the main switchboard people home this afternoon, then, you know, you'd begin to see. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: We would notice, huh? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I -- I guess the question that -- that we also need answered, I know the board two years ago or three years ago made a decision that we want warm bodies answering the phones. But maybe we're at a point where the citizens have to tell us whether they're willing to pay for that or not. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Right. They might be willing to -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: If they want to pay for it, fine, we can do it. But they have to realize that that's part of the millage that they're paying for. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's the way I'd like to put it out. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It's no automatic. MR. OCHS: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you. Human resources. MR. DORRILL: Each one of you now have the vacant positions. This is the most current list as of about a week ago. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah, I'm still going to want somebody to tell us. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Whitecotton, who in your department -- are there any positions in your department that are vacant? MR. WHITECOTTON: Everything's filled. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Everything is filled right now. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: You have six and a half filled positions. MR. WHITECOTTON: Yes, ma'am. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. MR. OCHS: On pages 13, 14, 15, 16, you have a fairly detailed description of service levels and then tried to get into some representative work load and performance measurements for different functional areas of the human resources department. Madam Chairman, we can -- we can walk through each one of these, or we can, you know, respond to specific -- MR. DORRILL: Walk them through. Walk them through. MR. OCHS: Okay. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Walk, walk. Jog maybe. MR. OCHS: Tom, why don't you start on 13 and just kind of go through the statutory mandates and then move through the program area. MR. WHITECOTTON: Under the description of base level of service, a lot of our activities are to carry out state and federal laws. Probably the best thing to do in terms of the major program areas is to go to page 14. Under 11 I basically have categorized in 6 major categories recruitment and selection, classification pay and benefits, employee relations/complaints/EEO, performance management, policies and procedures, and training and development. Those are really the key functions that we perform. And I've also indicated in the next couple of pages various work load and performance issues. Obviously recruitment and selection is one of our biggest activities. About 33 percent of our staff is attributed to that particular function. As you can see under the work load, we traditionally get about 3,000 applications a year that we process. And the role of human resources is to review each application to make sure the individual meets the minimum qualifications or not. If they do meet the minimum qualifications, then that application is sent to the hiring department for further consideration. So we do a pre-audit and ensure that the minimum qualifications are met. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: And that's with two FTEs? MR. WHITECOTTON: Yes. And again, that's a shared activity. There is more than two people involved. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Of course. MR. WHITECOTTON: But again, we've got a number of people that are involved. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Gotcha. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And these people last year processed 2,785 applications. MR. WHITECOTTON: Yes, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: For 251 jobs. MR. WHITECOTTON: Yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. MR. WHITECOTTON: And again, the number of positions filled, that also includes temporary positions. It also includes the summer program leaders and parks and recs. So if that looks a little high, that's really the reason why. Also we hire EMS temporaries, job bank people, so that would include those positions as well. We also have a role in terms of the -- once a selection is made to do background checks in terms of employment references as well as physical checks, police backgrounds, et cetera. So we do do that as well. We have some performance indicators that we process applications again on the front end within two days and then the background investigations also within two days. And we do that basically 95 percent of the time so the employment function is very important. I think you hear a lot of the managers, oh, we don't get people as quickly as we want. And we try to get folks through the process. But there are a lot of constraints. We do pre-employment drug testing. And with the new Transportation Employee's Act, we also do alcohol testing as well. That's something that just has come on line in January of this year. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: In the -- the business about the -- what do they want to call it? -- human rights commission. MR. WHITECOTTON: Uh-huh. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: To the extent that this county evaluates affirmative action, for lack of a better term, employee minority housing, minority employment, and that kind of stuff, that's your department. MR. OCHS: Not the housing area. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: I'm sorry. Not housing. I meant -- I'm babbling. But what I meant to say was employment. MR. OCHS: Well, yeah. What we do is submit the required EEO three reports to the federal government each year. We also prepare separate monthly reports on minority applicant flow and selection criteria that we report on to the manager. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: When I was at the civil rights hearing or whatever it was called the other night that -- the sheriff's department talked about this affirmative program they have for seeking minority applicants, and I wondered if the county has anything similar. MR. WHITECOTTON: We do something pretty similar. We have what we call the PEMA (phonetic) program, and that's really to -- a plan to increase minority applicants. It has really been something that we've emphasized the last couple of years. We do that with existing staff. As you know, one of my discretionary functions is staff liaison to the Black Affairs Advisory Board. And also the Hispanic Board I'm very -- I work very closely with them. So really through those boards as well as some proactive things that we do in the minority communities, we do focus on those activities. We do not have an affirmative action plan. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Okay. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Good. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Thanks. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: On your employee assistance and recognition, am I to understand that that is in no way discretionary, that we are mandated to have that -- that area provided? MR. WHITECOTTON: The employee assistance really has become somewhat essential only because of the recent enactment on that law I just spoke about where we have to have a substance abuse professional. And we use the folks at David Lawrence that are provided in our EAP program for the last several years. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. That's at their off-sight office, not at the David Lawrence campus, but there's one in an office? MR. WHITECOTTON: That's correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Any other questions? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: On the RSVP program, I'm walking through -- and first of all, I want to commend you, Mr. Whitecotton. The handy dandy bar charts and graphs you gave us are excellent efficiency indicators compared to other counties. It looks like there's a couple things we might be able to learn from Lee County. But other than that, we're -- we're in the upper end of efficiency and low number of staff per applications coming in and per hires and that kind of thing. I think that's a -- a terrific measuring stick, and I kind of went through that and started getting to the other smaller programs at the end here. I hope I'm not jumping ahead. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, I -- I enjoyed looking at the graphs and charts also. I just have a little bit of -- I guess they're very nice looking. How much information is in them is dependent, in my estimation, upon how well -- how efficient the other counties are as well because they seem to be based upon the 100 percent average of the other counties -- MR. OCHS: That's correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- and then comparing Collier County to it. So we're making an assumption -- MR. OCHS: Yes, ma'am, we are. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That they're doing it -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- that they're doing it right and we're doing it better. MR. OCHS: As you know, better than most. Benchmarking is a -- is a function of trying to identify, you know, others that are similar in scope and service and trying to find the best ones in benchmarking yourself against those. I can't say that these are the best. What we frankly tried to do is an interim measure, try to use some of the same counties for benchmarks that the Greater Naples Civic Association has used in past years in their benchmarking along with us. So we took a page out of Brad's book and tried to use some of those same counties figuring you would see those again in their report this year. I can't tell you that these are the -- are the best or most efficient or productive counties in Florida but -- COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: On the whole we're doing it a little better. MR. OCHS: Yeah, I would say in southwest Florida -- COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: That's what I gleaned from it. MR. OCHS: -- with these benchmarks we seem to be holding our own certainly. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I understand that. I just wanted to make it clear that we're making an assumption -- MR. OCHS: You're right. You're right. Absolutely. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- that the others are doing it okay, and we're doing it better. MR. OCHS: Absolutely. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: In going through the RECAP program, I don't have any desire to touch that. I think that's one of the best ideas to ever come out of what we've been doing. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We need to find a way to fund more of it. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Yeah. Can we turn the entire county into RECAP, Mr. Dotrill? The assistance and recognition, if that's something that's -- that's required, in your estimation, Mr. Whitecotton, is there any way we can go out and -- and reduce the cost through bidding, or is David Lawrence Center just about the only -- MR. WHITECOTTON: We're going to be doing that this year. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. MR. WHITECOTTON: We're going out for bids this summer, as a matter of fact. MR. OCHS: Let me just elaborate if I can, Commissioner. When -- when Jeff Walker gets up here, he's currently out with an RFP to try to carve out some of our EAP services out of our medical plan as a stand-alone plan. And we may be able to tie our employee EAP services into that -- into that RFP that he's working on right now. So he can elaborate on that a little bit as well. But yeah, we will be certainly getting some competitive proposals there to make sure that -- that we're being efficient there. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Jumping back to the RECAP program on page 21, you've got in the lower third, positions filled, study goal, 9, program results, 15. Does that mean that we had only -- our goal was to fill 9 positions and we actually filled 157 Is that what that means? MR. WHITECOTTON: That's through January the 1st. MR. OCHS: Yes, that's what it means. MR. WHITECOTTON: Uh-huh. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: How many total positions are earmarked for this program? I know attrition's driving it, but how many? MR. DORRILL: Like 50. MR. WHITECOTTON: We had identified 45 in the initial program study that again would be filled through attrition. As you can see, we're moving a little faster than what we had anticipated, and the goals have certainly been exceeded again on an annualized basis so far. We really have begun tracking this since July of '94, so we're only less than a year into it. But things from all indications looks like we will be exceeding both the positions filled and the anticipated savings. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So the goal's too low. MR. WHITECOTTON: I wouldn't say that. Again, it really depends upon the attrition. For a while things were -- we have slowed down the last two months. We probably have only gotten two new RECAP positions in the last two months after really an initial flurry. Quite honestly, it depends upon the attrition and turnover. Thatws what really drives it. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So for every position -- let me make sure that Iwm seeing this right. For the -- for the -- for the 45 positions wewre looking at 4 people handling that job or 3 people? MR. WHITECOTTON: That has changed. Really that was the original concept, and that is something that we identified quite early which was not going to be the case. And that, quite honestly, created a lot of concern amongst the departments. If they were going to be rotating people every three months, what about continuity of service, training, et cetera? Wewve been very fortunate in that 95 percent of the program registrants want to work full time 12 months a year. So we donwt have one RECAP position that have rotating individuals. We have one individual filling that position. So that has really helped in terms of the quality of service, the continuity, et cetera, so wewve been able to -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Are we defeating the purpose, though, of -- MR. WHITECOTTON: No. MR. OCHS: No. We still -- wewre not paying -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- cutting out the benefits? MR. OCHS: Wewre cutting out the benefit package. MR. WHITECOTTON: Theylre working without benefits. MR. OCHS: The only difference is we will incur some Social Security costs that we hadnlt if we were on a rotating basis. But as a function or percentage of the savings, itls very nominal. And for the continuity that you get and the productivity thatls maintained by having one individual in that position for a longer period of time, we think itls well worth the small Social Security. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I understand. That was one of my concerns about the program -- MR. OCHS: Right. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- was maintaining continuity. But at the same time we went into it in an effort to save money by getting the work done without benefits and so forth. But we are paying retirement then if theylre working more than a thousand hours? MR. WHITECOTTON: Yes, welve been having to pay the retirement. And thatls not really the function of one person or four people. One of the things that we identified as we got into this in July is that if we were filling a regularly established position -- and for retirement purposes, that is defined as a position that is anticipated to last beyond six months -- then you have to pay retirement from day one. So thatls -- again, thatls something that we -- as we got into it and part of the -- one of the original items that we had the RECAP coordinator look at, we identified that we were not going to be able to avoid that retirement contribution on those kinds of positions. Where we donlt have to pay the retirement is on positions that we donlt anticipate will last beyond six months that are for specific projects, for instance, that are going to last, you know, four to six months. But again, welve got to pay the retirement on those other ones. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So -- so these people that are working in this program, the likelihood that they will be with Collier County ten years and become vested to make use of that retirement, we -- we are essentially helping the state of Florida fund its unfunded system. MR. SHYKOWSKI: Yes. The state has gotten very creative in how -- how much assistance we're providing over the last number of years. They've -- they've changed a number of rules related to re-employed retirees, et cetera, to accommodate their unfunded liability, yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: But we've been funding it all along for our employees. I don't know why we should have the unfunded liability burden. I mean, I -- is this an argument that maybe county should be looking to the state to take care of this maybe in a court of law -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- litigation, because I don't think it's fair? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Are you going to represent us, Pam? COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: For a nominal fee. MR. DORRILL: I don't know the -- what the actuarial history of the Florida retirement system is. But it was not funded properly for years and years and years. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: What about the Florida Association of Counties? This can't be a Collier County-only problem. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Oh, I'm sure it's statewide. MR. DORRILL: It is. Every county in the state and I'll say the majority of the cities in the state are participating in the Florida retirement system in addition to all state university employees. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Because it's mandated, though. MR. DORRILL: Right. You don't have any discretion. You have to participate at the legislative prescribed rates for a variety of positions. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I thought there were cities that opted out of this because they -- they are chartered. MR. DORRILL: Years ago cities had the opportunity at that time -- if they had a separate pension board or system, cities could opt out. But the majority of cities are probably participating. Naples does not participate in FRS because they had a pre-established retirement pension board, pension system. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So is that something we ought to write a letter to the FAC and request that -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We certainly could write -- write a letter and get some history or -- or ask Mr. Whitecotton or administrative services to get some history behind it as to what it's costing us that we shouldn't have to pay. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: While we're waiting on that report, I think it sounds to me like we have agreement to go with essential on this one because everybody wants to keep this. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: The RECAP? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Oh, yeah, yeah. I don't have any problem with the RECAP. I just wanted to know what that was. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: It's very unusual to get a program that works better than we thought it would. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I was surprised, though, to hear that we're having to continue to pay retirement on the entire process. MR. DORRILL: Originally -- originally we did not. We said that we were not going to pay, and there were huge savings with this originally. We asked for an opinion. The opinion came back and said, no, if the intent of the position goes beyond six months, then we're going to force you to pay it regardless of how many people may be in it over the course of that six- to twelve-month period. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: If you all -- if you would get me some information on what transpired to lead us to that, I'd like to ask the FAC to -- to take a look at it. MR. DORRILL: Okay. MR. OCHS: While you're at it, you might want to ask if you can just allow counties to opt out of FRS all together. That would really solve our problem. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: With a five billion dollar unfunded pension -- MR. OCHS: Yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- I don't think they're going to do that. MR. OCHS: I don't think so either. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Next item. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: The employee assistance and recognition, did I hear you say that we'll be potentially bidding this out in the summertime? Is this something that will -- this bidding will occur after the budget process? MR. OCHS: We've already let the RFP, and we'll be getting proposals back Jeff tells me this month. So we'll be evaluating that sooner than this summer actually. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Would it be worthwhile to put this discretionary as a flag to see what those bids come back and see if there's a potential savings? COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's just what I was wondering too. I'm getting confused already about the E, D stuff because this -- this RECAP program is a discretionary program that I don't want to drop. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: So mark it E, and then we're not going to look at it again. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: And that's -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: If we mark it E, we don't look at it again. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: To mark it D, that means we're going to come back and revisit this puppy. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: So it's really D, but we're going to call it E so we don't have to look at it. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Right. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. I can go with that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Are we agreed that base level's mandatory? Host of this is federally and state mandated. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: You're talking about the employee assistance and recognition? MR. SHYKOWSKI: Discretionary. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Base level. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Base level was essential from my perspective. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Essential or mandatory? MR. SHYKOWSKI: Do that as mandatory. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It is? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mandatory? Okay. Employee assistance, I think I'm hearing discretionary because we want to see what these bids are. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: For the simple reason of seeing what the bids are when they come back. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Are we in agreement? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Yes. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yes. MR. DORRILL: So the board understands, the program, though -- and we can share with you additional information. One of the things that surprises me throughout the course of the year is the level of severe personal or family emotional substance abuse, financial counseling, divorce. It is -- it's troubling at times to see -- and we're a little society unto ourselves -- but people who have problems bring them to work, and it's nice to be able to have an outlet for them to get them some help. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: No question -- COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: No question. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: -- these $18,000 probably come back seven or tenfold in the sense of saved man hours, but I hear that there's a -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: But there are -- yeah, there are a number of -- of -- of other private -- private sectors beside David Lawrence that do this. MR. DORRILL: We agree, and that's why this is one of those things we privatized as opposed to trying to do it in-house, not to say nothing of the confidentiality that is important to get people to be willing to go in the first place. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: And it's almost too humorous to think of government doing mental health counseling. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That sounds like an oxymoron. COHHISSIONER HANCOCK: Next is the RSVP program. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: The RSVP program? Where are we on -- MR. OCHS: We would consider that a discretionary item as well. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I agree. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Uh-huh. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Uh-huh. MR. DORRILL: Discretionary. But again, just so I can plant these little seeds, don't underestimate the value of only spending $6,000 a year to go out and recruit hundreds of senior citizen volunteers. The only reason I say that is because we have one in our office who handles correspondence and also all of the central filing in our office. And the lady comes once a week, and we probably get our 6,000 bucks back a year just through that one employee who religiously comes every week and works about 6 hours a week. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: If that person leaves, we'll want to know. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: This seemed to me to be one of those just like the -- for my vote, that would be discretionary, but I want to keep the program, so why not mark it E. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: I would like to -- when it comes back, I would like to see these $25,100 -- what areas are we saving this money in, you know, just to make sure that 25,100 aren't jobs that normally we wouldn't be doing anyway? Is it real savings, or is it contrived savings based on estimation of time for -- for functions we normally would not do anyway? That's my -- my question, Commissioner Hac'Kie, and that's why I would like to see it discretionary. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Also are these the same volunteers that work in the -- in the library and the museum? MR. DORRILL: No, nor the courts. You have different friends or other programs. This is the program -- RSVP is through a local senior citizen program. They do have paid staff and what not. And this -- this is our subscription service, if you will, to them to make us eligible to get people out of that program. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Is this one where they pay part of the hours for the first six months, something like that? MR. DORRILL: I doubt it. MR. WHITECOTTON: No. Really this $6,500 is for us to have 25 percent of the program coordinator's time of the senior friendship house to coordinate volunteers for us. For instance, in human resources we have a volunteer, just as Neil was stating, who helps us with clerical duties. The way that it comes out is the volunteer hours, the twenty-eight fifteen there, it's really multiplied by around eight or nine dollars an hour. I don't -- I can't remember the specific figure. That's really the national average in terms of -- that's utilized to cost out the services. We really have volunteers throughout various agencies and departments, you know, throughout the county. I'll get you the detail. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Just to know if those are, in fact, positions that if they were not volunteer positions would we have to have additional staff members performing those functions. If not, then it's contrived savings and really doesn't mean anything. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Oh, I get the point. MR. DORRILL: Without being make work. I can tell you in the case of our office it is because when I went to work in the county manager's office 13 years ago, there was a clerical and secretarial staff of 3. There are now two, but in -- one of the ways we made that up is we utilize almost one full day a week in RSVP senior citizen volunteer to help with all the central filing work. But we can give you a breakout of that of where those people are and what is the nature of the work that they're doing. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. $6,500 for make work is -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I'm not -- I'm not concerned about the $6,500. I think the volunteer program is great. I guess what I -- what I'm going to be questioning when we get to the museum and the library is that if memory serves me right, we have -- also have a volunteer coordinator that's a paid position. MR. DORRILL: It's shared with the courts too. MR. WHITECOTTON: The library. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And I guess I'm questioning whether we ought not bring it all under one umbrella. MR. DORRILL: We -- that's a good question and one that we asked last year. You're going to get differences of opinion when you see the library director and someone from courts because they're going to tell you their needs are specialized and their training activities are specialized and they need someone, quote, in-house as opposed to trying to centralize it. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: But -- but RSVP is -- is -- is a very specialized group also. MR. DORRILL: It works very well, and if I want an RSVP person, I have to go to him in order to recruit that individual. We don't have someone in the county manager's office recruiting people. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So we are making RSVP discretionary, and I -- and I really think when we get to the library and the museum I want to look at that paid volunteer coordinator also. MR. SHYKOWSKI: Summarize the rankings, H, E, D, and D. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Uh-huh. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yes, that's right. Next item's real property. How are you doing, Hiss Taylor? MS. TAYLOR: Fine, thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: First question, are all of your positions filled? MS. TAYLOR: They are all filled, all 11. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. Thank you. Do you want to proceed? MS. TAYLOR: Well, basically what I did, I took real property management, and I divided it into the four major responsibilities which include right-of-way acquisition; surplus land sales, leasing; the cemetery; sales management; and also appraisal cost estimating. The only other service we provide that's not into the base level is the GAC land trust. And then what I did basically is tell you everything that we do in each of those major criteria, assign the FTEs, and also I think in detail provide the responsibilities pursuant to Florida Statutes, county manager ordinance, any type of local resolutions. And then I separated the outcomes for each and also the performance levels so that you'll better familiarize yourself into what we do and how we compare with other counties. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So you're telling us then based on this description that your base level is pretty much running the county's business as far as acquiring road right-of-way and public right-of-way for various projects and so forth. MS. TAYLOR: Yes, ma'am. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That if you cease to exist, then the transportation department or someone else would have to pick it up. MS. TAYLOR: Or a consultant, right. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And the money would be spent anyway. MS. TAYLOR: Correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. Any questions? MR. DORRILL: There are some other program areas, though, as it relates to indigent burial and the sale of lots at the Immokalee Cemetery, the coordination of all of the leases for rental property or property that we may lease and those types of things. it's broader than just acquiring right-of-way or easements for public works projects. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: How many leases are we handling? MS. TAYLOR: It states 84 in total. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Uh-huh. MS. TAYLOR: And we have basically 1.5 FTEs. Half of it would be me. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Are they leases for like what? I mean '- MS. TAYLOR: Sheriff's substations, the fire stations, the Pelican Bay -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: EMS? MS. TAYLOR: EMS substations, the finance department moving over at Court Plaza here. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is this the one with the -- the effluent ponds? Is this the department -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: They didn't handle that -- that One. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. MS. TAYLOR: That goes under liability if leasing wasn't with real property. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Ah. It makes sense to be there. Okay. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I do have a question. You state in here under your right-of-way land acquisition one of your jobs is to review preliminary engineering plans, determine the land rights. MS. TAYLOR: Uh-huh. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I guess it's just a fundamental question. Review preliminary engineering plans for what? MS. TAYLOR: Basically what we determine, whether it should be a permanent easement or a temporary easement. We design a construction plan, whether there's going to be slope improvements, curb, gutter. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Shouldn't that come from the design department or consultant already? MS. TAYLOR: Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. It depends on the contract with the county. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Depends on the contract with the county? COHHISSIONER HANCOCK: I say require it in the contract and -- MS. TAYLOR: Between Wilson, Miller and the -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: -- eliminate that. MS. TAYLOR: -- county, sometimes it is included and sometimes it is not. Same thing with preparation of legal descriptions. Sometimes that's handled in-house. Sometimes it's also handled by the consultant. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Why -- why wouldn't we have a policy if -- if -- if the -- the landowner has a consultant or an appraiser or somebody handling this, why wouldn't we have a policy requiring them to present it in the most favorable way that we can handle it? MS. TAYLOR: I don't quite get the question. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, I'm -- MS. TAYLOR: Basically this is prior to any negotiations, any contact of any property owner. We take a look at the maps and decide what rights are to be obtained, permit, fee, could be an easement versus fee because an easement they retain property rights such as density, et cetera. All that is determined up front before we contact the property owner. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I see. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I just know from experience that as you go through and plan a project, whether it's a conservation easement or right-of-way easement, you determine up front -- I mean, as someone who's doing the design, I determine what the preferable method or mode for the property owner's going to be. And I would -- I think a consultant would be remiss in not doing that and making that recommendation clear. MS. TAYLOR: There's -- I agree with you. But at some points the county is best off getting fee because if you get fee, five years down the road when utilities wants a utility line, if you get a road easement, you'll have to go back to the same property owner, acquire, pay twice as much for that same piece of property. And unless it comes to the county with OCPH department, transportation, and real property, those things are not known by the engineer. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. So that review in essence is -- is a back-up protection for the county to make sure that whatever we get is a long-term solution. MS. TAYLOR: Right, and cost saving-type resolution. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. MR. DORRILL: Do you want to touch on the GAC activity as well because that's the one addition? MS. TAYLOR: Yeah, the GAC land trust we put level 1. There's no Florida or state mandate for this, but you do have an agreement November 15, 1983, that stipulates certain requirements that the county must abide by. So between Hike and I, we just basically took it out of base and -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: What would happen if we failed to abide by that -- that agreement? Would the land revert to Deltona? MS. TAYLOR: There is a reverter, correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: There is a reverter. MS. TAYLOR: Because there is no state or federal -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That sounds essential then. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Sounds mandatory. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, we can choose not to abide by the agreement and revert it. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: least. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: level? COMHISSIONER NORRIS: COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah. Okay. You're right. But essential I would think at Okay. Essential is fine. And mandatory for the base Yup. Agree. Thank you, Hiss Taylor. MS. TAYLOR: Thank you. COHHISSIONER MAC'KIE: I especially appreciate having that -- that outline of where the source of your responsibilities -- duties and responsibilities outline where you told us what ordinances and what statutes. I think that's a good idea because it does keep you focused. MS. TAYLOR: I've been told I'm a little bit wordy, but I appreciate that. Thanks. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I like it. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Risk management, Mr. Walker. MR. WALKER: Good morning. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: First question, are your positions filled? MR. WALKER: Yes, all of them are filled. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Second question, do they need to be? MR. WALKER: I believe so, yes. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. Just thought I'd ask. MR. WALKER: Basically what we have before you this morning, we have laid out primarily three major areas in the base level of service. Those three major areas are dealing with the area of property insurance which is the protection of a capital asset. The second one is a provision of liability, insurance coverages pursuant to Florida Statute 768.28 which is a waiver of sovereign immunity as -- as the attorneys or attorney on the board may be aware of. And the third area deals with the area of worker's compensation which is pursuant to Florida Statute chapter 440. We basically have allocated four and a half of the six full-time equivalents among those programs. The -- in terms of either a discretionary or essential program, that would obviously be your judgment. We have allocated the group benefits program among that area because obviously there is no statutory requirement that you provide a group benefits program. It's obviously a very important program, but it's not obviously mandatory. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So the four and a half FTEs, that's keeping what we own insured. And the -- and the one and a half is providing insurance benefits for our employees? MR. WALKER: That's correct. That's correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: The -- the insurance benefits for the employees, that's health -- health, life, and what? MR. WALKER: Basically all employees are provided group health insurance, life insurance. And then we also administer a flexible insurance benefit program which is something we implemented about three years ago. You'll notice on the -- let me find it here. Under the outcomes measures for that program, that program has saved the county approximately $75,000 for every year that it's been in place simply by going to a pre-tax basis for the purchase of benefits. And that's something that we handled in-house without a consultant with our staff. So that was just simply by making those income tax or section 125 changes we were able to do that. And we administer that with current staff. So that -- that 1.5 is -- part of that's me, but that -- that one person, that administrator, is allocated to that program. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: If -- this is the question just off the top of my head, Commissioners, please. If we were to increase the employee contribution in our health insurance program, could we move that program into the 125 field so that they would be paying with pre-tax dollars? MR. WALKER: They already are. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: They already are? MR. WALKER: Oh, yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So it's already in it. MR. WALKER: It's already in it. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It's in the flex plan? MR. WALKER: Yes. MR. OCHS: Yes. The employee contribution for their dependent coverage is part of the flex plan for tax contribution. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I hadn't realized that. I'm sorry. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And just go back to the -- to the risk management section of this. It takes 1.25 FTEs to handle our property insurance, 1.25 to handle our liability insurance issues, and 2 to handle worker's comp.? MR. WALKER: Right. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's the math that I'm seeing here? MR. WALKER: Well -- COHHISSIONER HAC'KIE: I mean, how can I possibly evaluate -- I don't -- how can I evaluate whether or not that's necessary? It seems like a lot of people to be sure that we have adequate insurance. MR. WALKER: Well, some of this is obviously the allocation of a secretarial position. My position obviously is allocated among the base program as well as the group benefit program. So that's why you're seeing .25s in there. They're basically odd fractions, if you will. It's not that we have 1.25 people, but we have obviously more than one person, support person, as well as a main person. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Because one of the things in my private business is that I thought that last year it would be a great idea to have this administrative person. I found out that I can't afford to do that. And this sort of looks the same to me. And -- and I'm needing to hear that this is more -- that it is, in fact, necessary to have this many people, this many FTEs, being sure that we're adequately insured. MR. WALKER: Well, again, it's actually much more than that. MR. OCHS: Yeah, I think we should point out that, Commissioner, we do contract for our claims administration service in all of these areas. So we have attempted to keep the FTE number very low. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Tell me that again. We do contract for our -- MR. OCHS: We don't process our own claims like some large companies do for health insurance, for example. We have contracted that out. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I'm not -- I'm not so much over here on the group benefits program. I'm not looking at that one as much as I'm looking at the risk management. MR. OCHS: Right. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: The program that if we have two and a half, four and a half FTEs, that on an annual basis their job is to be sure that our insurance coverage is correct. So help me know that there's more to it than that. MR. WALKER: Let me go through each of these individually. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Am I the only -- do you guys already -- if you're already satisfied with this, I won't make him go through if there's already -- COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: You just do whatever makes you happy, Pam. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. Thank you. Get a cup of coffee. MR. WALKER: Essentially -- essentially I have one individual allocated among the property and the liability program. And if you look at the outcomes measures, you'll notice that there are estimated in FY '95 approximately 140 auto, general liability, and property claims that will come through the county. Now, each one of those claims has to be investigated. In other words, you don't want it to end up in the county attorney's hands and it hasn't been investigated. Mr. Bryant will be the first one to tell you that the worst thing that can happen to him is to get a case he knows absolutely nothing about. So every time there's an incident or a claim, it's investigated. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And what you mean by that is every time somebody has a fender bender in a county car. MR. WALKER: Absolutely, absolutely. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Is that what we're talking about? MR. WALKER: Absolutely. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Then what's the level of the investigation? You have a person who gets the police report or -- MR. WALKER: The level -- the level will depend upon the type of accident. But, for instance, we have children who get hurt in parks. And we will send a person out to the park. My -- my senior analyst will go to the park, take pictures, talk to the workers to find out what the maintenance has been on that particular piece of equipment. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So this is a tort reform related -- MR. WALKER: Yeah. What we're trying to do is we're trying to be defensive here to the extent that by the time the lawsuit comes, we know what happened and we'll be in the best position to defend it, the county. So this isn't a situation where you've got one person here buying insurance and then he just sits back all year and does nothing. It's much, much more than that. And -- and -- and so you get 140 or 150 incidents like that a year. There's quite a bit that must be done in terms of the management of that claim so that we obviously do prevent a more catastrophic type of financial exposure from a legal standpoint. MR. OCHS: I must tell you also these -- all three of these program areas are self-funded so there's actuarial valuations that are done each year. There's a lot of financial management, day-to-day financial management, that goes on in risk management on these programs. MR. WALKER: I would also point out the same thing is true in terms of the worker's compensation program. We have about 150 claims a year in that area. Every one of those claims are investigated. And then obviously you've got the ongoing management of those cases in terms of trying to bring people back to light-duty status. One of the things we've been trying to do is if we've got a person who can work, they will work, and they will find work for them to do within the county. That's one of the activities that this person does. So there's quite a bit of management that goes on with these claims. The other area that I would like to talk about would be the issue of the safety officer. As you know, the board is required to be in compliance with various OSHA standards. And frankly, the reason we brought this person on board was, number one, to get us in shape primarily in terms of OSHA and then once that is done to get involved in those other areas in terms of loss prevention because it's a whole lot easier to save money up front than it is after the fact. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: When did we institute a safety officer? MR. WALKER: It was actually instituted I believe in the FY '94 budget. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Do we have a -- something showing us a reduction in claims? Or, I mean, is there any performance standard for that particular office that the board can see? MR. WALKER: There is going to be -- there is a performance standard under the work load measures in terms of the number of work comp. claims per hundred employees. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I would assume the safety officer makes this a safer place to work somehow. MR. WALKER: That's the idea. I mean, the idea is to prevent accidents from occurring up front. It's much cheaper to do that than it is to pay -- I'm telling you, under worker's comp., you get somebody into the system; it's far more expensive than it is to save the money up front by preventing the accident. And that's the point of that position. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: So this person is doing more than going around posting worker's comp. posters. MR. WALKER: Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. He's doing -- number one, the first thing he's doing is -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I understand there's some history here I was unaware of, and I'll defer to -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: We had long discussions about that. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: The statement of revenue impact business, I need translation into English here. Funding of only base level would result in decreased revenues of six million dollars in group health and life. What -- I don't understand statement of revenue impact. And you're saying that it's self funded or something anyway? Can you give me that in English? MR. WALKER: It is -- the group health program is a self-funded program. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Okay. I understand that. MR. WALKER: So if you decided you no longer wanted a group health program, you would actually reduce revenues for that program by that amount. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So setting that one aside, I understood that that was self funded and the six million dollars is a revenue issue. But what is the revenue impact of the -- of the risk management base level? MR. WALKER: Okay. If you go to the very first -- after the organizational chart, you'll see there where it's broken down on page 41. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Estimated program cost, three million? MR. WALKER: Yes. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Is that -- so -- so risk management costs three million dollars a year. MR. WALKER: Well, you have to understand that most of that's claims. I mean, it's not personnel cost. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I do. MR. WALKER: Because we are self funded, and part of that obviously also is re-insurance costs and things like that for that program. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Just for making this process simpler, it would seem to me -- and again, if I'm the only one who feels this way -- but the stuff is hard to read. It isn't as clear as it could be. I wish that under revenues impact for this department it would tell us. Instead of saying what would happen if you didn't fund the -- the health business, I wish you would say the revenue impact of this department is three million dollars. MR. SHYKOWSKI: It is worded that way because under risk management the first program is the base level service, and it is assuming that that is mandatory and required and as a result of, you know, being required by federal or state law that it will be funded. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: But that's still what I'm looking at. On page 43 I'm still at the base. I'm looking at the statement of revenue impact for the base level. And then -- and then, you know, then there's the revenue impact on page 45 for the -- the group benefits program. I'm just saying I think this can be a whole lot clearer, a whole lot easier to understand if you just laid it out that way. MR. OCHS: Okay. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I'm going to ask kind of an unusual question, and I'd like you to think about this for a second. If one of your people in your department fell off the face of the earth tomorrow, could you continue to function? MR. WALKER: Well, sure. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: And if so, could you pick that person? COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: That position. MR. WALKER: Right this minute. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: What I'm looking for -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Let's talk about positions, not people. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Something we haven't done is -- not that it's an indicator that we are going to cut, but if we had to cut in your department, where could that cut come and give you the least damage? MR. OCHS: I think we've got to define what service level the board wants. I mean, if we're going to be required by statute to provide at least the base level of services, if you cut FTEs, that's your prerogative. But we're just going to turn around and go out and hire a consultant or contract with -- COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, maybe sort of. I mean, I found the same thing in my own business is I had three paralegals last year. I'm going -- I have two doing the same amount of work this year, same number of closings, same amount of work. And they're working harder and -- you know, they're working Saturday and Sunday, but it's -- you know, it's something that we have to do. MR. OCHS: We have one -- we have one secretary. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: You can always cut somebody I guess is what I'm saying. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: I'm just finding it more and more difficult to ask the tough questions here because we -- we're -- everything seems to be justified. And every time I say, well, where can we cut, the response is, well, you can cut anywhere you want, but it's going to cost you later. That says to me every single department in county government is operating at 100 percent efficiency, and I guess I'm just -- MR. OCHS: I understand, Commissioner. Let me -- let me just say from a historical perspective for the benefit of the newer people, a few years back there was a 10 percent reduction in staff and administrative services. And when we were dealing with a 90-person division to start with, we actually did get to the point where we were pretty much getting to that mean and lean stage. And I'm sure, as you said, if you have to find a way or if we're required to do that, obviously we're going to do it. But we really believe that we've gotten our FTE count down to pretty much a base level in terms of providing existing level of service. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And I think that's the issue, Tim. You know, maybe we can't afford the level of service that we presently have because we're going to have to cut somewhere. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: This is a small department, too, so each person probably plays a larger role, larger percentage of the overall share of work. So maybe it wasn't fair for this department. But I am going to continue to ask those kinds of questions. I am going to get answers on them for the simple reason when it comes time to reduce personnel, if we have to do that, I want to know your opinion of the people in your department that are the -- if they fell off the face of the earth tomorrow, you could continue to function although it'd be harder and tougher and all that good stuff. MR. OCHS: That's absolutely a fair question. We would like perhaps a little time to give that a little more thought and discuss it. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. Why don't we kind of put it on notice right now that I'm going to come after that in that sense for the simple reason that if we do have to make the personnel cuts, I want your recommendation on where they can be made. MR. WALKER: Well, in that vein, I mean, if you said, hey, we want you to cut, say, a staff person, then we would have to go back and analyze what services we're providing and how we would shift this around and then if there's a negative effect let you know, hey, look, this is what you lose. MR. OCHS: Then we'd identify and could answer your questions. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: We may or may not get there, but that -- that is really my focus because otherwise everything's going to be justified, and it's going to be very difficult to keep costs down. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And it goes back to that point, too, where my -- my -- my problem with this process is, yup, there's some essential stuff in here and there's some discretionary stuff in here because we can probably do some of it cheaper. So I want to put a D on it again even though I know that -- that there's a lot of essential. What other opportunity are we going to have to look at the possibility for slimming down? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Are you talking about base level or the group? COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I'm talking about base level. MR. WALKER: Well -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Because I -- because I don't know -- I know that it is essential -- is it essential to staff it at the level that we do? Is it essential to pay -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's what we don't know. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's what I'm -- so when is my chance to ask those questions if I don't put a D on this babe? MR. SHYKOWSKI: Base level is defined as the minimum required to perform the services that are outlined within the program packages as a start. Obviously in a -- in a six-person department, that's a little more difficult to -- to -- to get at. What would happen with 1 individual obviously in a department with 90 people, that's a little more manageable. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I guess the question comes down to -- to -- Commissioner Mac'Kie is saying, well, yeah, but the program itself is essential if not mandatory, but we're not comfortable that you need four and a half people to do it. And that's -- that's the question in the end. And -- and on -- you know, we're going to get to group benefits program next. You've got one and a half FTEs to that. We already contract with an administrator for that program. I don't know -- I'm questioning why we have one and a half people for that. MR. WALKER: Well, I would point out the work load measures for that position, you've got a person handling the flexible benefit program that's got over 3,000 policies in it. I mean, I don't know -- that's a lot of work. She's doing 50 employee orientations a year. We do an open enrollment period a year which lasts anywhere from 45 to 60 days. And, I mean, in 1994 we met with over 800 county employees during that time. So I mean, it's not as though -- COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And the benefit to the public of that is increased efficiency of their employees? I mean, yes, yeah, we're looking for translation. MR. OCHS: There's a $79,000 Social Security savings as One '- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Say that again. I'm sorry, Leo. MR. OCHS: $79,000 estimated savings to the board in Social Security contributions that won't be made as a result of getting more people enrolled in the flex benefit plan because they're treating their benefits with pre-tax dollars -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Gotcha. MR. OCHS: -- which means the employer does not incur the -- the Social Security on that. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's a great -- that's the kind -- MR. OCHS: Pays for that three times over right there. MR. SMYKOWSKI: More than offsets the administrative overhead associated with that program. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: What kind of ranking are we leaning toward here? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It's sounding to me like it's D and D on both of them only because we're not comfortable with the FTEs. COHHISSIONER NORRIS: Well -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: And I'm -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: The base level I think is essential, but there's some concern about -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: When do we get to talk about whether or not it's necessary to -- to staff it at this level if we put an E on it? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. Well, Mr. Smykowski, if we put a E on this today, that doesn't preclude us from coming back in June and talking about those FTEs again. MR. SHYKOWSKI: No. You can revisit any program you decide. Typically, though, anything ranked discretionary, you would have a large grouping of all the programs ranked discretionary. And if push came to shove and adequate revenues were not available, you would have to prioritize in your policy-making role and make the hard decision choosing between parks, libraries, utilities, risk management, et cetera. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Isn't this the nightmare the board got into either last year or the year before where they started doing E, slash, D? COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah, I don't want to do that. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: That was kind of a real nightmare, I understand. MR. OCHS: Well, as I understand it, we're evaluating the program -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: The program. MR. OCHS: -- as opposed -- you know, if you want us to come back and evaluate the staffing, you can still consider these essential from the standpoint of statutory mandates and preservation of capital assets. And obviously if you want us to revisit the -- the staff allocation, we'll do that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I think part of the problem with the program priority budgeting that I've had trouble with from the beginning is that when we sign on to saying the program is essential, mandatory, or what have you, the FTEs that are attached to that program just automatically move forward each year. There's never a discussion as to whether there's too many people involved in the program or not. We look at the program, not necessarily the efficiency of the people doing the work. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: And we've got to look at both. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That has been a question from -- for many. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: We're not going to sit here today and make accurate time accountability -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: No, we're not. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: No. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: -- statements or summaries because the mechanism to review time accountability is not necessarily in place in any department of county government with one or two exceptions. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Let's -- let's take a look at -- how do we want to rank the base level of service on this one? Do we have a consensus that it's essential? FTEs? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: FTE concern. Yes. Yes, I -- I feel it is. Or discretionary? It's essential. Okay. But we'll question the Right. All right. I put a tag on it for The rank number 2, group benefits program, it's certainly one of those great nice to haves, and I certainly wouldn't want to cut it out. The question is do we want to rank it essential and not really look at it again, or do we want to rank it discretionary? MR. WALKER: Let me -- let me tell you, when we come back to you in June with the line item budgets, we certainly are going to look at it in terms of dollars. I mean, our goal is to -- is to take a look at that program and try to reduce the cost of it if possible. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I know in private sector we had about a .5 FTE for 250 employees, and that seemed to be sufficient. I don't have a problem with 1.5 FTEs for 900 employees. MR. WALKER: Oh, actually you're talking 1,250. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Twelve hundred and fifty? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Uh-huh. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: So I have less than a problem with it then. MR. OCHS: Because this is constitutional officers with the exception of the sheriff. We administer -- you know, we administer this program. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: So as far as the number of people -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Are we required to do the constitutional officers? MR. DORRILL: They're part of your group. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Larger. MR. DORRILL: They can opt out. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: I remember. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I don't have a problem with 1.5 FTEs administering 1,200 people for group, health, life, flexible benefits, and so forth. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: that. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: So we're going to make it E? I think it's an E. I'm comfortable with an E on Okay. Let me ask before we move off of group benefits, the -- where does the funding to fund group benefits from our enterprise operations come from? Those enterprise operations themselves or ad valorem? COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Oh, that's good. MR. OCHS: The enterprise operations. We bill monthly a premium. Even though we're self funded, we bill each operating department, and they have a line item in their budget for their portion of the -- of the cost of the program. So obviously the enterprise funds use their enterprise revenues. MR. SMYKOWSKI: They pay 100 percent of their relative share. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: One hundred percent of all benefits associated with enterprise funds are funded through the enterprise funds. MR. OCHS: Yes, sir. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Are they -- are they taking an appropriate share of the administrative costs as well? MR. WALKER: Yes, it's all built in. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: And one last question before you leave. Is -- is -- are things like chiropractic and acupuncture on our health plan? MR. WALKER: Chiropractic is -- are. MR. DORRILL: This is not a trick question, but this is an important question for you to answer. MR. OCHS: Would you like them to be? Let's put it that way. MR. WALKER: The nice thing about being self funded is you can cover anything you want to. Currently your plan does cover chiropractic. It is a state-mandated benefit. Acupuncture is not, but it's something that we can cover if we choose to cover. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: We can throw herbal teas in if you like that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I thought acupuncture was a recognized medical procedure now. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: It used to be covered. MR. WALKER: It may be recognized, but it's not mandated by the state law, whereas chiropractic is. So a couple years ago when the board was looking at increased healthcare costs, it was just one of the areas that was cut out in trying to contain healthcare costs at that time. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. MR. OCHS: Let me just -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: It's not an appropriate time to talk about the subject, but I'd like to put it back in there somehow. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Why don't you address a memo to Mr. Walker and see what to get it included would entail. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Let me ask you to bring that to the -- put a -- make an executive summary and bring that to the board if you don't mind. And let's just talk about it some time. This is not the appropriate forum. MR. WALKER: Okay. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. So we have ranked both of these essential. Thank you, Mr. Walker. It is 10:30. Why don't we take a short break. We'll come back at 25 of. (A short break was held.) CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Let's reconvene the budget workshop for the fiscal year '95, '96. We are working on fleet management. MR. OCHS: Yes. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Mr. Pucher's here to take the board through the program outcome budget for fleet management. MR. PUCHER: Good morning. I do have one vacancy that's been vacant since mid January. It's a mechanic 2 position, although I'm interviewing a third candidate for that position today at two o'clock, and I think I'm in the final throes of hiring a mechanic. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's -- that's since January of '95? MR. PUCHER: Yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. Thank you. MR. PUCHER: What I've tried to show you through the graphs and the measures is how productive fleet is and some of the challenges that face us. I believe that our -- our staffing would have to remain the way it is at this time since our work load keeps increasing with the size of the fleet and work orders and down time. MR. OCHS: The -- the graphs on pages 50 and 51 since, you know, we talked about the graphs earlier, trying to paint kind of a graphic picture, give some historical information on equipment counts and mechanic-to-equipment ratios and some operating and staffing statistics as well. 1992 I believe is when the -- when the board made the decision to take the operation of the fleet management back as a staff function as opposed to a contracted service. And even in 1996 our projected operating expenses are still lower than they were in 1991 when we were contracting that service. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: What I heard from -- from the city when they looked at this is that they found that it wasn't efficient to contract the whole thing out but that pieces of it were efficient, oil changes or something. I mean, is that -- MR. OCHS: Yes, ma'am. That's correct, Commissioner. In fact, they kind of took a page from us. We were -- we did that probably two years ago, maybe three years ago. In fact, we shared some of that information with the city, and they subsequently did the same thing with -- with their quick oil changes, for example. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Is ours back in-house now? MR. OCHS: Oh, no, no, no. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's still out. MR. DORRILL: And we also -- historically we've also contracted other specialty work like glass, radiators. I'll say transmissions, but I'm not sure. And so there -- there are certain specialties that are so high volume that they just don't make sense for us to maintain the parts inventory or the equipment and tools to do that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. Any other questions? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: What is our vehicle inventory that your subject -- that is subject to maintenance by your department? MR. PUCHER: What is the inventory? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Total vehicle inventory. I'll say regular-sized vehicles versus large trucks. MR. PUCHER: Okay. I've got that in a graph for you. Do you see the one that says equipment count on page 50? We have a total of 991 pieces that we maintain. Five hundred and eighteen of those are handheld tools, generators, pumps, push lawnmowers. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Not to be stupid, but which graph is this? MR. PUCHER: On page 50 there's an equipment count. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Equipment count, and I don't see anything that says 991. MR. PUCHER: Yeah, I'm sorry. The way we look -- we divide it into primary and secondary equipment. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Rolling stock and secondary? MR. PUCHER: Yeah. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I mean, that's what this graph says, rolling stock and secondary. I'm just trying to get -- MR. PUCHER: It's kind of hard to define primary, but it is the large rolling over-the-road and off-road heavy equipment. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So rolling is -- keep going. I'm sorry. I'm still looking for the 991. MR. PUCHER: And secondary are handheld implements that we have to maintain in order to keep parks crews and utilities crews performing their job. MR. DORRILL: Weed eaters, chain saws, lawnmowers. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Rolling stock means it has wheels on it? MR. OCHS: Yes. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I thought you meant you were rolling the stock. MR. OCHS: If you were to add those two numbers together, that's where we're talking about the 981. MR. PUCHER: Right. And I show you some ratios there. Currently we're at a -- with the primary equipment, I have eight mechanics maintaining that primary equipment. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Primary being rolling stock. MR. PUCHER: Rolling stock. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I want to get it. I want to call it one thing and stay with it and I can follow it. MR. PUCHER: That's a ratio of about 54 to 1. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Does your department also handle the rolling rocks? MR. OCHS: Not on duty, though. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: The what? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's -- that's a good answer, though. Not on duty. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Not on duty. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: The reason I asked that question is obviously there are some full service shops that handle -- and let's just stay specifically with the rolling stock now that we all understand what that is. There's some full service shops that handle these types of operations on a regular basis. Have we looked at what their staffing requirements are? Again, I just want to make sure we are operating on the same level as a private sector. Since we took it back, I just want to make sure we're operating on the same level, that we don't have more mechanics per piece or per service than they do. MR. DORRILL: Easiest thing to do would be to relate that to your -- your -- we had a contract with Ryder Truck Systems who was your full service contractor, and it's probably been four or five years ago. Do you know what the number of mechanics they had at that time or what the year was? MR. SMYKOWSKI: There's a staffing chart on page 51. MR. PUCHER: If you see on page 51, in '91 we had an outfit called Lear Sigler (phonetic) in here that there was a total staff of 21. They had 10 mechanics at the time with a 38-to-1 ratio. When we took it in house, we dropped one mechanic, and that was partially -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So the ratio's now -- MR. OCHS: Fifty-four to one. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: They had 38 to 1. We are 54 to MR. OCHS: Right. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And that was apples to apples, hopefully to hopefully. MR. PUCHER: And it's real difficult to compare other private companies because we're so diverse. I tried to put that in the description of the ages and the diversification of the fleet. Although I did call around to other counties -- I called Charlotte and Sarasota, a couple more, Lee County, and I found that their ratios were higher than what we have. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: What about -- I never heard the answer, Commissioner Hancock, about how much of this is cars and how much of it is something bigger than cars? COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: That was explained in -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is that the rolling versus non-rolling? MR. OCHS: Again, the rolling is all the sedans, the light trucks -- COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: I mean, do we have big stuff? MR. OCHS: -- all the ambulances plus we have all the off-road -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Can I interrupt here? The court reporter is having difficulty with our talking over one another, so one at a time, please. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: I'm sorry. No, please, you finish answering. MR. OCHS: Yeah. The primary rolling stock is the sedans, light trucks, special purpose vehicles like ambulances. We also have all of our heavy off-road equipment, end loaders, graders. All of that equipment is considered in the primary rolling stock. The secondary stock would be motorized hand-held equipment like weed whips or push lawnmowers or even perhaps some riding lawnmowers, carts, for example -- MR. DORRILL: And I think -- excuse me. Specifically what she was asking, of the rolling stock for 1995, 432 pieces, how many of those are, let's say, half ton pickups and below? They're either cars or light pickup trucks. MR. PUCHER: Specifically sedans and station wagons, 52; 165 pickup trucks, service trucks; 26 utility vehicles. That's like a Blazer or a Bronco, a four-wheel drive utility vehicle; 24 vans; 37 fire trucks, ambulances, emergency-type vehicles. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So there we're stopping -- the definition that Neil just gave us with the half ton, now we're starting to cross over into something bigger than that? MR. PUCHER: Yes. We track them differently. They have red lights, sirens, higher maintenance costs, sooner preventive maintenance schedules. Medium and heavy duty trucks, 56; heavy construction equipment, 29; light tractors, backhoes, trackhoes, 41. And if you like, I could detail the secondary equipment too. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: No, that's enough. MR. DORRILL: The first one was -- you said we had 52 cars? MR. PUCHER: Correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Are there additional questions? COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Just a general comment. This is -- this is an across the board, Neil, so I guess it comes to you more. And it's probably -- well, nevermind. The comment just is I feel like so often I get summaries that are almost like maps without keys, you know, rolling stock. Somebody give us a key to the blasted maps is how I feel -- was my most frustrating thing of going through this -- trying to go through this book over the weekend. This is like a map without a key. I don't know what rolling stock is, and it's not too hard to tell me what it is. MR. DORRILL: That's fair. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: You know, English would be nice. MR. DORRILL: And specifically what we just did. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah. MR. DORRILL: When we say rolling stock, what is that? COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: What the heck? Give me a key to the map. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Personally I thought rolling stock meant that's stock that we have in our recovery program. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's what I thought. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's what I thought. MR. PUCHER: And, see, I get used to the terms that I use and -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Write it for an 8th grader is what I wish you'd do. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: All right. We're ready to rank -- rank these two programs. We haven't talked about the motor pool capital recovery program. This million dollars that's assigned to that program, that's the cost that we put away each year I presume -- MR. DORRILL: It's a sinking fund to assign a life expectancy to every piece of equipment and car and vehicle and truck so that when it comes time on a computerized schedule to replace that vehicle, we look at years of life, total mileage, maintenance history incurred to date. The computer makes recommendations when to replace something. We will have the cash on hand to replace it as opposed to having to come up with $20,000 in that one year's budget to be able to replace that equipment so we -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Why does that take two people? No, that's the staff rank. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: No, that's the staff rank. MR. DORRILL: I don't think we've got any full-time equivalents associated, but that is a money-related and budgetary implication, and I frankly think that it's good business especially on the heavy equipment and specialty equipment side rather than the shock value of having to come up with the money in one year. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Mr. Dotrill, what has been our proforma? Have we been high on this number, low on this number, right on the mark? What degree of success have we had in -- in this? MR. DORRILL: Very good. I'd asked Mr. Pucher to help me in terms of, you know, what is the average life of a standard vehicle when it's replaced, years, mileage. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I guess what I'm asking for more than that is when we set that money aside, is there a time frame in which there -- anyone feels some need to spend it or -- MR. DORRILL: No. The user departments cannot make that call. But every -- every piece of equipment or vehicle that you own has a prescribed life to it that is then tracked by the computer. And just because the computer says that in year 6 we're going to replace this -- this light pickup truck, that we don't necessarily do that. We will have the money to do it by the end of year 6 based on this budget program. But it's finally Mr. Pucher's call on recommendation to me. And, in fact, there's even a little check-off system that he looks at what I said, total years of life, maintenance history incurred to date, projected maintenance history, number of miles. There are a series of factors that are in his computer program to make that call. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: If we do better than expected, we would have some level of build-up in this fund; is that correct? In other words, if things last a little bit longer, that fund may have a tendency to grow a little bit? Is that -- MR. PUCHER: I think it would. I anticipate it will probably be down to 350,000 after next budget year if we replace the 49 vehicles I have here. So that's pretty much how it goes. It drops -- COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Really we haven't had a history of this fund growing in a sense, in other words, things lasting longer than expected so that we can look at any potential cuts this year that would equal the -- the past growth? MR. PUCHER: I don't think so. MR. DORRILL: Again, there's a schedule. And it may behoove us to share that schedule with you so that you can see the life expectancy that we're describing in the replacement schedule that he uses. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. Are we ready to rank these? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Let me just ask one last question. The one million dollars would be the projected budget for this one year; right? Is that correct? MR. DORRILL: That's a total fund summary of what you intend to spend for this year. MR. PUCHER: That's the current, current budget. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: And that goes for replacement of the motor vehicles like sedans, wagons, and pickup trucks? MR. PUCHER: That's correct. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Anything else? MR. PUCHER: It encompasses about a 200-vehicle fleet of approximately 50 sedans and station wagons and 150 pickup trucks and passenger and ambulances. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. So if we made a commitment to extend each of those vehicles' replacement life by one year, we could delete the one million dollars for one year's -- MR. PUCHER: No. Actually that's what the computer does do. We've established a point rating system where we can actually shorten the life of a vehicle or extend it based on the rates. And we do extend the life of certain pieces. MR. SHYKOWSKI: But there is a standard capital recovery in terms of number of years. Obviously if we say a sedan typically lasts us six years, they'll be paying into capital recovery so that cash will be available at the end of year 6 to replace that vehicle. Obviously if it lasts a year longer, they're not paying a seventh year of capital recovery. That cash would just be on hand and remain on hand until such time as that vehicle were replaced. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: So we would have to program a seven-year life rather than a six-year life in order to do what I said, in order to accomplish what I said. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Yeah. MR. DORRILL: Yes. The answer to your question is yes. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Yes. MR. DORRILL: We don't over -- we charge by the mile, and there's a -- a per mile cost for every class of vehicle, and we don't -- if we're recovering the cost in six years, we don't charge them one-seventh more by making them drive an older vehicle for another year. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, it's something that we may want to think about maybe not this year but the next budget year. We may want to think about extending everybody's replacement life by one year and saving a million bucks if we're looking for millions to save. MR. PUCHER: We do start out with a base and expected life for every single piece of equipment. Everyone has a base. And then we rate them through all the different factors, mileage, age, maintenance costs to date. And we'll either shorten that life for that particular vehicle or extend the life of it. In a lot of cases we do extend them. MR. SHYKOWSKI: For instance -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: My suggestion would be E and D. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I agree because we may have the ability this year to look at, say, 25 percent. Do an extension on 25 percent instead of taking the whole time to realize some immediate savings. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We might be a little bit short sighted if -- if we do that. I think a capital recovery program's a good fiscal tool. And I would want to get a print-out of what the allocated funds are in that pooled money at this point and the anticipated expenditure based on current lifes and what that fund would look like if we did push it one more year. I'm really not in favor of saving a million dollars. It's just going to cost somebody else a million five four years from now. It's not fiscally sound. MR. DORRILL: We can show you the schedule. And Mr. Norris is -- he just wants to see some of the same judgment calls Mr. Pucher would make near the end of the year. Obviously -- and I understand what you're saying, Ms. Matthews, is that you wouldn't want to push everything off for another year's sake and then you'd spend more in maintenance in that one year. If we've got an ambulance that's a dog and just worn out and, you know, the capital recovery portion of that would have saved us whatever it is, you don't want to spend another $6,000 maintaining an ambulance that doesn't really have any value left. MR. PUCHER: You may save it here, but you're going to sacrifice it in reliability and the maintenance cost and safety. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Mr. Norris is looking at. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That relationship I think is what E and D. E and D. I'm with him. I agree. Okay. We have consensus, E and D. I have one more question on the capital recovery program, real quick question. If -- if we have a vehicle that's a lemon and -- is there anything in the -- in the computer that will assess the fact that, jeez, this is not -- that this vehicle -- we haven't had it as long as we ought to have it, but the maintenance costs are so high that we ought to get rid of it? MR. PUCHER: Absolutely. That's just what it does. Plus we live with the vehicles day by day. We know the ones that come back. There's a hands-on factor plus the -- the computer does identify. It will flag and rate that one higher in the points for replacement. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I realize that we get a print-out that says, jeez, this piece of equipment is six years old and it's time to replace it. And then you make a maintenance call and say, but, jeez, all we do is change the oil, and so it's running good. I'd like to know the other side of that too, that we are indeed flagging the lemons which we all know we occasionally get Monday and Friday cars. MR. DORRILL: And/or abuse that may be ascribed to the employee who's driving that vehicle. And in addition, he also monitors the utilization so that if a department or an employee is not driving it based on what he expects it to be driven on an annual or bi-annual basis, then he's saying, why are we incurring the expense to have an extra vehicle when this employee's only driving it $200 a month or 200 miles a month versus what it would cost us to reimburse that employee on a mileage basis? COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: One more -- one more question because I heard -- I heard the -- the answer to the question about the employee-to-equipment ratio is lower now than it was when we were using it privately. What's the -- where is the process for evaluating do we need all the equipment that we have? Do we have too many cars? Do too many -- do -- you know what I'm saying? Do we need this much equipment? When's that evaluation now? MR. DORRILL: That's an ongoing evaluation to determine, A, who is entitled to drive a county vehicle in -- in the performance of their duties. Beyond that we also monitor internally and we can share with you who is entitled to take that vehicle home. And I can tell you ten years ago that was a huge number. And I will say today how many people can actually drive a county vehicle home? MR. PUCHER: Maybe six people. MR. DORRILL: So, you know, we've got a thousand employees. We've got three or four hundred cars and trucks. And we're down to where we've only got six people who can actually drive that vehicle home in the evening. So he has other ongoing programs that monitor utilization and the essential aspect of who really needs to be able to take those home because otherwise someone is then having to pay to maintain them. What we look at is either engine hours or miles driven to determine whether they can justify a vehicle or whether they ought to be reimbursing someone on a mileage basis or renting equipment if it's heavy equipment. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is that -- is that some information that's already produced somewhere that I could just get a copy of it to look at? MR. DORRILL: He has other schedules and things that we can show you. MR. OCHS: What we can do is give you copies of the bi-annual -- what we call the fleet utilization report. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That'd be great. MR. DORRILL: What -- your question specifically is why -- why, Mr. Dotrill, do we need to have 52 cars? COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yes. MR. DORRILL: How come we can't have 48 cars? COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Right, exactly, or front end loaders or whatever the hell else -- whatever the heck else. MR. DORRILL: Air boats. We -- we own and operate air boats too. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah, air boats. We have air boats? MR. DORRILL: Oh, yeah. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Swamp buggies? MR. DORRILL: No. Sheriff owns a swamp buggy. COHHISSIONER HANCOCK: tour. COHHISSIONER HAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: fleet management. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Commissioner Mac'Kie would like a No, no, no. I just want a list. I think we're finished with the Yes. Thank you, Mr. Pucher. While Mr. Camell is coming up, Mr. Smykowski, do you have additional copies of your agenda for this morning? MR. DORRILL: He has them. We can get some additional copies. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is there an agenda? I wondered what we were supposed -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I don't remember seeing one. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I don't remember either, but I'm sure we're behind whatever it is. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah. We're behind. I can -- I can sense it. MR. DORRILL: We have about three more departments in administrative services, and I believe we had hoped to do courts before you broke for lunch at noon. And then this afternoon you had said that you wanted to do the airport authority and what else, Mike? MR. SMYKOWSKI: Emergency services at one o'clock. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We're going to have to press on. Purchasing, Mr. Camell, are all your positions filled? MR. CARNELL: Yes, ma'am. MR. DORRILL: And if you'll look on page 54, you'll see for the first time -- just again, Commissioners, so you'll understand the form, you'll see that his total -- subtotals and totals are beyond 100 percent, and that's where you can quickly then see that he is projecting or requesting one additional employee and the cost associated with that. And that's the first time you've seen it, and that's why I'm trying to call your attention to -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Boo hiss. MR. CARNELL: I'm out to make you money, not to cost you money. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Right. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Want to proceed? MR. CARNELL: Yeah. To just give you a brief overview, with my budget, I don't know how many other departments ran into this, but I had to take my base activities and break them into groups to meet the modified definition of base under program budgeting for this year. In other words, my bidding -- my bid work, the RFP work that we do, the purchase order processing, I had to look at each of those, particularly the bid and the RFP work, and break it into what is required by law and what is not. And what I've done is in the base broken that out for you. I've broken the base into three categories which I called one general which is just a variety of different legally required functions that counties -- county governments are obligated to do that fall under the purchasing department's auspices to oversee and participate in; the surplus property function being another. I separated that out; and then also our participation in the bidding and letting and execution of construction and design contracts and agreements. The second part of my budget is the -- the programs that are non-base. And what I've done here again is I've got a bid and RFP activity broken out into a program called formal competition, and this is non-statutory. This would be the element of bid and RFP work that is not required by law but is more required by the county purchasing policy for formal competition. And a couple of good examples on the -- what's required by law would be the Consultant's Competitive Negotiation Act for hiring consultants. There is a new law on the books this year that requires us to bid construction services in excess of $200,000. And then the other laws that you see listed under base all have work impacts on my department. The non-statutory formal competition would be anything that exceeds our bid limit which is not required by law. Now, in preparing my activity measures, again, what I had to do is take my activities and break them into pieces. And so you'll see -- if you look on I believe it's page 56, you will see a historical break-out of this activity aggregated together for fiscal years '91, '92; '92, '93; and '93, '94. And then henceforth from -- meaning the balance of this fiscal year which is '94, '95 and then the '95, '96 year, I've broken them into pieces that the new definition calls for. And that doesn't mean my work load is dropping by two-thirds for bid activity. What it means is that I'm projecting that a third of my bid activity and RFP activity this year will be statutorily required. The other two-thirds is driven by policy requirements. If you look at the next page, you'll see -- page 57, you'll see the balance of that number. So in essence I'm operating around 175 to 180 bids and RFPs issued a year. A third of them are in the base two-thirds or in the formal competition program. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I know we had -- we had an agenda item not too long ago about revisiting some of these purchasing policies. Does your projection incorporate those changes? MR. CARNELL: No, it does not. This was written based on the current purchasing policy because we submitted this in January before the board agenda item was prepared. However, what you're talking about is moving FTE between program number 2 and program number 3 because by raising the limits, which the board had directed a bid limit of $15,000 as opposed to the current $6,500, that will reduce the number of bids and RFPs that you see on page 57 projected. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Right, right. MR. CARNELL: And -- but it will not -- likewise there will be a corresponding increase in the informal competition, the number of. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: But that blows the whole theory as far as I was concerned because -- MR. CARNELL: No, ma'am, it doesn't. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Well, let me -- let me just -- MR. CARNELL: I'm sorry. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And then you can tell me where I'm wrong. My -- my goal in changing the purchasing policy wasn't to give more discretion to the staff. It was to give more discretion to the staff so that we would save money. MR. CARNELL: Uh-huh. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And you're telling me we're just going to move people. MR. CARNELL: What I'm telling you -- we're talking about the difference between the users in the purchasing department, the central purchasing office. The -- when you shift the work load as we've talked about here to a higher bid limit, the purchasing department still has the same number of purchase orders to review and process and provide service on. The difference is that the users now have -- first off, you're time saving -- you're going to save time both in purchasing and in the -- among the using departments because you don't have the requirements for advertising and formal competition. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: But if I'm going to save time, why aren't I saving FTEs? If I'm going to save time in purchasing, why -- MR. CARNELL: Well, I think you're saving FTEs in the field. I don't know that you're saving -- you still got the same number of purchase orders to transact in the purchasing department. And what I -- and let me add a caveat here because there is an element of discretion here. The -- if you remember in our discussion on February the 14th, there was a question raised by the board to me which is by raising these bid limits, what safeguards are you going to include in addition to this because I got the sense from the board that we didn't want to just swing open the barn door here. And what -- my statement to you about working -- work passing more or less on a one-for-one basis from one program to the other is predicated on the fact -- on the assumption that we're going to do what I said we were going to do, and that is we were going to do more of the informal competition work in the purchasing department for users which saves users' time because now purchasing's doing it for them and also -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Users being the departments. MR. CARNELL: Yes, ma'am. And also gives the board the assurance that central purchasing is overseeing the fact that we are spending more money in a more informal process now but we are still doing it professionally. We are still doing it in a fair and open and competitive way. Now, to get to your point, we can if the board were to say to me, purchasing, let's not do that. Let's just leave things the way they are with higher limits, in other words, let the operating departments fend for themselves between, say, 6,500 and $15,000, if we do that strictly on all purchases, there will be a saving, and there would be a potential opportunity to reduce FTE in my department. We can do that. My budget is not based on that assumption, however, and that's an issue that the board needs to consider. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So the question is, do -- do we need to have people in purchasing reviewing the higher discretionary purchase amounts that individual departments -- you're calling them users -- that users have? MR. CARNELL: Yes, ma'am. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Hmm. And -- and in order for me to think more about that, I have to understand. You told me that it is going to save money even though -- you know, that -- even though you're not reducing FTEs. In your department we're still saving money by changing the purchasing policy. MR. CARNELL: Oh, yes, ma'am. And you're saving time. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And how is that? MR. CARNELL: Well, we're saving -- we're saving money in the sense that the purchases that require normal competition right now -- and there's a window of between 6,500 and $15,000 that the board has targeted -- will now be handled through informal competition. That's going to do two things for you. Number one, as a rule, the informal competition process is less labor intensive. It's simpler to put a quote -- what we call a quotation together. That's informal competition. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So that should save me FTEs in your department. MR. CARNELL: Well, it's going to save you FTEs countywide. Now, whether it's the user -- if the user goes and does it himself, then -- and purchasing doesn't have to do it, then that's a savings. But let me go back to what Mr. Ochs said earlier about three departments ago. My department had nine positions three years ago. It has seven right now. We -- when we -- when we had our staffing cut in 1992, a lot of work, Commissioner Mac'Kie, that we were doing in that informal competition range got pushed back on the users because we just didn't have the ability to do it anymore. And I get a lot of input and feedback from users who say, I sure wish purchasing could help me more in that middle range. And in trying to respond to my customers, that's where I come in part with the assumption that we need to provide actually more service in that area to the users. Now, I still suggest to you you're going to save money because you're going to put the departments in a position where they can -- because -- just simply because the informal competition process is more cost -- it's less costly than the informal competition process. And it takes less effort as a rule to put a quotation together as opposed to a bid. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Where am I going to see that savings? In the department -- in the user department instead of in purchasing? MR. CARNELL: Well, you're going to see it in that they will have more time for other things. And we are talking about maybe a quarter or half a position -- MR. DORRILL: Or what he said is -- MR. CARNELL: -- for the entire Board of County Commissioners organization. MR. DORRILL: -- you can force them to do it, and he will lose one additional FTE. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Wait a minute. The court reporter is having three people talking. MR. CARNELL: I'm sorry. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Mr. Dorrill, you have to play by the same rules we do, one at a time. MR. DORRILL: That's my problem. See, I sit here for hour on end and don't say anything, and then I feel compelled to tell you all something once in a while. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I'm just -- this is one that I really want to focus on because, frankly, my predecessor has spoken to me about there's ways to save money, Pam, in purchasing. There's ways to save money, and -- and changing the purchasing policy is a good idea of a place to start. That sounded like that's the road we were going down. And then we get to purchasing, and instead of saving money, we're adding. And I'm -- I'm still looking for an answer to that about how did -- how will giving more flexibility in the purchasing policy translate into savings. MR. SHYKOWSKI: Field staff will not be working on developing RFPs in conjunction with the purchasing staff. They'll be doing their routine tasks. And as Steve indicated, it's much less labor intensive to develop a simple quotation than it is to do a comprehensive specification and RFP. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: But less labor intensive, that's what I keep writing down. Less labor intensive should translate into reduced FTEs. And where is that? MR. OCHS: Or increased -- or increased productivity in the field. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: The problem we're having here is increased productivity does not mean savings when you're talking about county government. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Increased productivity means we do more. It should mean we have to hire a few people down the road, but we -- by the time we get there, we don't make the connection. When I hear savings, savings to me is fewer dollars spent out of general fund. That's it. Either we're spending fewer dollars on personnel, or we're not saving a dime. It's either one or the other. And when we talk about savings, Mr. Camell, I understand your point fully. Fine. We're going to save time in the field? Great. Let's cut the field staff. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Right. Show me where the cut is. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: That savings, idea of savings, we are not a billable organization. When we can do more work in eight hours, we don't -- we don't realize any more money. We don't realize a lower burden on taxes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Maybe we ought to be billable. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: So we need to confine the word savings to fewer dollars spent. MR. CARNELL: And I'm suggesting that we can get both. But welcome to the dilemma of central purchasing. The -- what you're talking about here -- and you've hit on the point -- you're talking about -- you're talking about savings that probably equate to a very small amount per department. Multiply that by 45 users, though. And when you look at purchasing from the big picture, if you take 45 little pieces and add it up, that's -- that's a significant savings. And -- but when you look at it as, gee, let's go -- let's go whack every budget by .02 FTEs or something like that to account for this, how do you implement that in a reality -- in reality? COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, I mean, that's what I'm looking for. I want -- if what you're telling me is that -- okay. First I need to tell you my -- one of my motivations in changing purchasing policy is to save money because it would be more efficient. Okay. We've agreed that that's why we're doing it. You're telling me that the place I'm going to save that money is not in central purchasing. It's going to be in the user departments. Then tell me how much because I do want to cut .2 FTEs in every user department if that's how much. MR. CARNELL: I can -- I'll have to try to quantify that for you subsequently to this. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I've got some -- I've got some real concern about saving time in purchasing by shifting that -- or saving work load out in 45 user departments at -- because trust me from having been an employer for a long time, you save 15 minutes a day, and you never see it. If you save 15 minutes a day 45 times, you'll never see it. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It needs to be -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: You won't see the savings. It's -- empirically it's there, but you don't see it. MR. CARNELL: All right. Let me -- let me say, though, with regard to the new program that was proposed, we are proposing to show you, and the program is proposed as a pilot. And it is proposed -- Commissioner Hancock made the point to distinguish between productivity and savings, and that's fine. We're prepared to do that. The new program that -- there's two elements to the new program that we've proposed. And the one -- let's talk about the one that's on the point that you're making right now. And that is to conduct a pilot program that we would commence in this fiscal year to -- in order to give us sufficient time to operate the program prior to the next program budget cycle so we can come back to you a year from now with results, and the idea would be to track savings in terms -- and there's two categories of savings I can think of that are hard costs. Number one would be reductions in staff overtime in the field because somebody in purchasing's doing the job for them instead of someone in the field having to do it, so I don't have to pay my people overtime which is a actual occurrence occurring right now in some of your divisions. The second element to this program would be maybe getting better prices on our purchasing products and saving as well in that area on a recurring basis. Now, you take -- those are two hard costs savings that you will see. Now, there's a -- also a soft costs saving or you want to call it a productivity gain of just being able to change out 40 widgets instead of 30 in the field because I'm not screwing around with purchasing as much in the field anymore. And again, that's a benefit from the field that's going to be department by department primarily targeted to the departments you give who have the most reoccurring and largest volume of one-on-one purchases day to day. Now, what we've suggested in the pilot program is to let this thing stand on its own two feet and let it sink or swim. And that is that we would create this program. We would -- I would literally create a log or a chart that resembles just what I described. We would track the savings in hard dollars from reductions in overtime because somebody in purchasing's doing it instead of somebody in the field. And then secondly, we'd look for savings in purchase price by doing this centrally. And then thirdly, we would then also identify productivity gains. And then we would give all that to you, and you could see in a six- to nine-month period what we've accomplished by having the additional resource. And by the way, it's half a position because there's another half a position going to another service that I'll talk about in a moment. But the idea would be to lay it out on a pilot basis. The annual cost is $23,000 we estimate. So if you're figuring a pilot of nine months, figure about three-quarters of that is the cost of the investment. That's for both programs. So if you -- if you figure it's 23,000 a year, half of that is for what we're talking about right now, say $12,000. Then really we're talking about three-quarters of $12,000 to test this idea and see if it's worth spending $9,000 to find out how much we can save. I frankly think we'll save $9,000 so to break even, if nothing else. And frankly, I think we'll come out well ahead of that. Now -- COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Mr. Camell -- MR. CARNELL: I'm sorry. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: -- quickly, you -- when you say create and program, you in essence drive a stake through Republican hearts everywhere. What I see this expenditure as doing, you're asking us to spend or allocate $23,500 to show us that we're saving money. MR. CARNELL: No, that we can. I'm talking about finding and creating additional savings. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: You're talking about spending 23,500 to go out and say, here are areas you are currently not realizing savings that could operate differently. This is how they're going to operate. And, I mean, that's -- that's -- that -- I just want to make sure I understand what you're asking for. You're asking to -- for us to spend 23,000 and gamble that 23,000 on the fact that this person's going to come back and show us that we can save three, fourfold their annual salary by making policy changes in other departments. MR. CARNELL: Well, 9,000, when they break it out into a pilot the way we proposed, $9,000. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Instead of 22. MR. CARNELL: Yeah. Again, let me show you the numbers. You've got two things going on here. You've got the savings that I'm talking about, providing more support to the operating departments to do what we just described. The other thing is a vendor subscription service which is -- this is more of an entrepreneurial approach to try to do two things: Give the vendors more service and make purchasing less general revenue dependent. And the idea would be to charge our vendors an annual subscription fee to subscribe to a service in which they not only would get what they get now which is if you walk into my office and sign up to be on the bid list, then my office will mail you a package when your particular goods or service come up for formal competition. Now, we don't guarantee anybody that we'll mail. That list right now is an internal tool for our benefit, not yours. And it's just to give us a place to start looking. If we have 78 vendors in one category and half of them are in Tampa and a third of them are in Atlanta, we may not mail to everybody in Tampa and Atlanta if we can get good competition down here in our area. Now, what I'm talking about changing in the program is making the focus more external to where you pay your 20 or $25 a year to be in this subscription service, and you will get everything that you're signed up for. And on top of that, you'll also get a periodic newsletter from my department telling you about upcoming purchases, giving you ideas and tips and suggestions on how to do business with the county, profiling different county departments, and giving them information about what they buy and who you can contact as a vendor. And I frankly think that is marketable information that vendors will be willing to pay for. And that -- we're suggesting to you -- we're trying to do this as lean and mean as we can. We're taking this one position or one FTE. We're attributing half of it to what we were talking about a minute ago which is the experiment on putting a little more labor into finding more savings in the departments in the contracts and purchases that they make and putting the other half position into the subscription service which is an external benefit. I believe that we can -- and again, the pilot will tell us if I'm right or wrong. I believe we can generate enough money to more than pay for that subscription service. And if we make a profit, if you want to call it that, the difference in revenue, the additional revenue, can be applied to general department operations. And what I mean by that, I'm not talking about gain sharing when I say that. I'm talking about the five of you saving money on what you have to levy in ad valorem to support my department. That's the idea behind the subscription service. It's just to make us a little more freestanding, a little more entrepreneurial in what we do. And so those are the two elements to the program. Now, you may say to yourself, why do I need half a position to do what I'm supposed to already be doing which is saving money? And what I'm telling you is there's a limit. There's only so many hours in a day, and there's only so much that we've been able to accomplish. And if I go back to that benchmark of 1992, when our staffing was cut, we pushed back on the operating departments a good deal of work at that point. And what I'm suggesting to you is if we take some of that back, we can provide a tremendous amount of assistance to them which I think will produce real savings as I've described. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Let me interject a thought here, though. You're referring to your staff being cut in 1992 by two FTEs. Didn't also go along with that staff being cut the central inventory for office supplies and so forth? MR. CARNELL: Yes, but that was not -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: You lost that too. MR. CARNELL: That was not two FTEs' worth of work. There was other things that those people were doing as well to support the departments. Yes, we lost the -- we scaled back. We used to have a central storage -- a full-blown office supply area. And now it's down to a few shelves of just very basic items that we keep, purchasing county letterhead and forms that would be ridiculous for 45 departments to go quote independently. You might as well have one central place quoted and obtain it. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Again, interested in moving along, I'm looking at 1, 2, and 3 as essential and 4 as discretionary. I'll put that out and see if the rest of the board agrees or wants to make other changes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: informal competition? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I see E, E, D, and D. E, E, D, and D? Uh-huh. Do you have central storage and Yeah, because I'd like to make sure that we look at that again, not so much that I don't want to do it. But I'd like to make sure that -- that we're doing it in the most efficient way. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: just finished. MR. CARNELL: Thanks. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Steve. E, E, D, D? That's acceptable. E, E, D, D. Same list I have. Okay. Mr. Camell, I think we You get to go through this again, MR. CARNELL: I can't wait. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I think we're -- we're -- sounds like we're really interested in seeing this chart that you're going to develop. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Any time you ask us to spend money to save money, we're getting very gun shy of that concept, so let's -- let's be very comprehensive on that. MR. CARNELL: I understand. MR. DORRILL: Miss Matthews, do you want to determine now what the board's intentions are for -- for lunch or from -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, I have a -- a luncheon appointment at noon, so it was my intention to leave about five minutes of. I don't know if the board -- there's still three here. And we can certainly function without me. MR. DORRILL: The only reason I mentioned it is because if you want to go ahead and take a break, then I think we ought to let the court people go back to their offices -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Do you know what the serving hours are at St. Matthew's House? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: No, I don't. MR. DORRILL: No. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: No idea. Anyway, what does this board want to do? Do you want to take a full hour for lunch? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yes. We'll break at noon. MR. DORRILL: My suggestion would then be that we'll see the court folks immediately after lunch, and we'll tell the emergency service folks to hold off for probably an hour or so. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Sounds fine. MR. DORRILL: See you all. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Sorry. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Not that we don't like an audience but -- MR. DORRILL: They've just been sitting here for about 15 minutes or so. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Facilities management, Mr. Camp, tell us about your vacancies. MR. CAMP: No vacancies. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Would you like any? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: All your positions are filled? MR. CAMP: Yes, ma'am. Scope of service -- for the record, I'm Skip Camp, facilities management director. Our scope of service, basically we do billing maintenance repair that we do around 8,000 work orders a year. You're getting on to 200 structures by the end of this year. We do grounds maintenance. There's the main campus and 13 off-campus, janitorial service for around 45 different structures throughout the county. We do space planning, maintenance, capital projects. We also develop standards for all vertical construction and key management and major contractual compliance. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Questions? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Skip, under your craftsman positions where you have two FTEs, would you just kind of give me -- I know we've been -- in recent expansions of certain things craftsmen have probably been more needed than they have in the past. Would you just give me a summary on what those two FTEs are doing and if they're truly necessary. MR. CAMP: Yes, sir. We have -- we have added in the last five years over -- double our amount of structures and square footage. And we truly are doing less, and we're able to do that because we contract a lot of work out now. But there's some core services that we do need some help on in order to cut down on the response time. What I'm proposing to do is to take those two positions, the craftsmen, and make them a plumber and an HVAC technician because those are our most critical areas for response that we've kind of eroded that. We used to be able to in four hours get to a toilet overflowing or a structure, particularly in the summer if you have -- for instance, an emergency would be if you had a trailer with people or public in it in the summertime if the air conditioner went out. And in the past, years past, we've been able to get to things like that within, say, four hours. It's now taking us almost a full day to get to those kinds of emergencies on the average. And again, we're able to -- we're able to do twice as much, cover twice as many square footages and twice as many buildings with much less staff than we had because we're contracting a lot out. But those core services, electrical, plumbing and air conditioning, are -- are getting to the point where we need to respond quicker. And in our system we keep those core services in-house. Those are the only things that we haven't contracted out because they're critical to the operation. We have the electrical systems and the plumbing systems we know because our people have history and they know those systems. Everything else, of the 49 services we offer, 40 of them now are contracted out, and I put that exhibit in there. Five years ago we were instructed to contract as many things out. And I thought you'd want to see how that's been going. There's a drawback to that, you know. If you have your own people, you may have to pay them more. Your response is better. When you contract out, you become one client of perhaps many. And sometimes they can't, you know, meet your schedules. But as you can see, we have aggressively done that. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: By bringing those two craftsman positions in -- MR. CAMP: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: -- do you anticipate any reduction in outside contractual work, or is this just -- MR. CAMP: These are just for core services. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. MR. CAMP: We'll continue to contract out everything we do -- I mean except for the core things. We have a pretty good record of doing that. MR. OCHS: On page 64 of this packet, there are some fairly telling efficiency and effectiveness measures both compared against the national averages and some survey data from southwest or Florida counties that are comparable in scope of service and size. I'll draw your attention to the middle of the page there in terms of cost per square foot and the number of square feet maintained per employee for Collier versus the other indicators. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Excuse me. Does that take into account the amount of work that we contract out in that dollar fifty-three per square foot, or is that -- MR. CAMP: Yes. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. That's all encompassing. That's not just our staff. That's including contractual work. MR. OCHS: It's the whole budget. MR. CAMP: That's the entire budget. MR. OCHS: Down at the bottom of the page you can see where our ability to respond to routine work orders has increased by 58 percent just '93 to '94. And that is a continuing concern that -- that we believe we will in part address by being able to bring two craftsmen onto the program in fiscal year '96. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Any other questions? MR. DORRILL: I think the most telling thing for this department actually occurs on page 75 and 76. You can see that in just almost the last, oh, little more than a year, we have acquired or built almost 170,000 square feet of additional facilities. Now, that runs, you know, the gamut from T hangers at the Everglades City Airport that don't really require much maintenance all the way up and including, you know, new community center buildings in Golden Gate and the Vineyards and new community parks in Golden Gate Estates -- what will be Golden Gate Estates and other facilities -- or library, rather. And so they -- some of them are easy to maintain, but others are going to require the same level of service after the warranty period. And in trying to do that with the same number of people has been where the big impact's been. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Mr. Camp, are you an exempt employee? MR. CAMP: Yes. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. Good. In that case, I'll give you a compliment. Just about every night I'm here past eight o'clock. I see you running around this building. And now that I know that you're not getting paid for it, I think you at least deserve some recognition for the hard work you put in. And I want you to know as one individual I'm very grateful for it. MR. CAMP: Thank you, sir. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Well, let's rank it. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah, let's rank it. MR. SMYKOWSKI: You need to be clear that programs 2, 3, and 4 are new proposed expanded services. The total is 109.8 percent, so there's 9.8 percent new dollars in there just so you're aware of that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: The fire sprinkler inspection, we're not doing that inspection service now? MR. CAMP: Very limited. The new law when it comes to the sprinkler systems -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Uh-huh. MR. CAMP: -- that's a new law. We still certify the fire alarm systems. They're two different systems, and this is the one that's going to be incredibly expensive. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So we have a law saying that we need to inspect the sprinkler systems. MR. CAMP: That's correct. MR. DORRILL: It went into effect in January. MR. CAMP: It was last November. MR. OCHS: Would this be one of our famous unfunded mandates? COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Sounds like it to me. MR. OCHS: This is the state of Florida statutory requirement, yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I thought Florida had said they weren't going to send any more unfunded mandates. MR. DORRILL: This one went into effect, he tells me, at Thanksgiving, November of '94. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Just kidding. MR. CAMP: And they've just now got the rules. In January and the first part of February, they got the rules down to where we feel they're reasonable. But for a long time the law was established but not the rules. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Mr. Camp, please explain for me quickly the special services .5 FTE. MR. CAMP: Yes. That's -- that's something that we're doing much less of. It used to be any time somebody called and they weren't sure who to call, we'd do it. If you need boxes moved from your offices, say, to the warehouse or any of the constitutional officers, that's what a special service is. If you wanted these doors, for instance, closed or open, that's something that typically is not part of the base. That's a special service. And typically if it wasn't necessarily for the executive office, if one of the departments wanted a box moved and they wanted our people to do it, then that would be a special service that we'd actually bill them for that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So there's special services. You -- you -- you bill those services out to the various department or -- MR. CAMP: Absolutely. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- constitutional officer, whoever asked for it. MR. DORRILL: And we did that to put an end on -- we used to -- years ago we would even make furniture for requesting departments. And it's -- it would be mind boggling to determine what it would cost us to make maybe this table that I'm sitting at. And those used to all be special services under building maintenance, and we have totally eliminated that type of opportunity to just the bare minimum. You know, if someone has got to like set this room up in the morning or set up -- you know, if we have a workshop somewhere or if some boxes need to be moved to the warehouse, but it's -- it's now down to where it's really only 1 percent of what he does. MR. CAMP: That amount is covered by -- totally by revenue that we receive from the other departments that have budgeted that in their line item. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Talk to me about the contract administrator now. MR. CAMP: Yes. One of the things that we have been doing, five years ago we had nine people in our front office. Today we have four -- we have five, and I'm the only full-time one besides the clerical. So we have -- we have eliminated most of the management staff. I think it's because -- sometimes I think it's because we're in the general fund. But our activity measures and our direction to contract out all these things has skyrocketed. And the only people I have left in our biggest department in our division full time is myself. We have two temporary positions. One handles 22 capital projects -- they're called capital maintenance projects, small renovations. All these projects are less than a million dollars and are associated with the buildings that we -- we do most efficiently. And then the other one handles administrative things, you know, contracting out, putting bids together, contracts, quotes, and all those kinds of things. Billing automation system. One of the things that we've been able to survive since, again, our activity measures have gone this way -- we've doubled our amount of buildings and square feet with less staff -- is billing automation. We now monitor 2,500 different items in our front office. If you have an air conditioning problem instead of a thermometer there, a thermostat, there's now a sensor. We can -- without sending somebody up here just to verify that it's hot or cold, we can look at a screen and find out whether, in fact, it's a personal thing or there's actually a condition there that warrants a response. And we can change the condition there. So this person also has a background in HVAC which, again, we also have the most advanced thermo storage plant in the county, this part of the state. And this person would manage that technology also. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: This -- this person is going to manage the contracts for maintenance -- you know, maintenance facilities, janitorial contracts? MR. CAMP: Absolutely, absolutely. We have a janitorial contract that he will monitor. We have 45 buildings. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Who's monitoring it now? MR. CAMP: No one. We have a -- opposite of being proactive, we wait until there's a complaint, and then we respond to that complaint. MR. DORRILL: But to the extent that anyone is, it would be Mr. Camp. MR. CAMP: Well, I mean, yes. MR. OCHS: That's why he's here at eight o'clock. MR. DORRILL: And, for example, he said that we now have -- of the 49 different maintenance tasks, we have 40 of them contracted to the private sector. And they literally run from probably termite and pest control all the way up through and including elevator maintenance contracts. And the main function there is to hire someone to assist Mr. Camp in administering the 40 different building maintenance contracts that we have and also to give some assistance on small capital and renovation projects. A good example would be the renovation that we've done in this building and the project to build a -- a secure parking lot for the -- the judges. That is a small type capital project that he would be responsible for. And trying to get Mr. Camp some assistance is -- is what that overall program package is showing. MR. CAMP: One thing that I'm not sure if I should bring up or not but I'm real proud of it, if you look on page 63, you'll notice our janitorial complaints last year were 322 and this year they're down to 200. And -- and I do want to take credit for that. I think from more threatening letters and actually going and visiting some areas, we've done some contract deductions. Last year we deducted over $4,000 in one particular month. And so that's one of the things that we can do is get on top of these big contractors a little more and hold them to the bids documentation. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: To what the contract called for. Mr. Hancock. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Just so I understand, you have number of personnel, 1.0. Under dollars you have 46,300. I guess I'm a little lost there. I assume the salary for that person is not 46,000. MR. CAMP: No, no, no. It's less than 30. That's a benefit package. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER NORRIS: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: one, yeah. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. That's -- okay. That -- The retirement, the FICA. How about E, D, D, D, D? E and all Ds? I can buy that Do we have the ability to put a D on number 3, fire sprinkler inspection, if it's required? MR. CAMP: No, not on D. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It's mandated. MR. OCHS: There's no FTE allocated there. It would just be a -- it's a contract service. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I think 3 should be an E. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: E, D, H, D, D. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: H, D, D? Okay. MR. OCHS: That -- that last rank 5, we can certainly call it a D. The .5 FTE really comes out of that base level area. mean, if you're going to do base level, you're going to do special service. See, the 23.5 in base, the other .5 is down in special service, but you're literally -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: What if we were to make the .5 contract administration instead? COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Looks like two different functions. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Does it? COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Special services is coming out of a general type worker under the base level area, whereas contract administration is a single position, probably someone you wouldn't want reviewing contracts, then going out and putting a partition up. MR. OCHS: More of a technical position, writing bid specs., doing contract enforcement, energy automation and billing security audits, those kinds of things. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: is that correct? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: MR. CAMP: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. So we have E, D, M, D, D; Right. (Commissioner nodded head.) Thank you, Mr. Camp. Next is information technology. Is that where we are? MR. OCHS: Board members, I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce you to Mr. Bill Coakley. He's the new information technology director for the Board of County Commissioners. Bill has been on the job all of half of a day just about, so he ought to be able to answer any detailed questions you have on the program budget. And, of course, Barbara Wescott, our information systems coordinator, is with us this morning also. Barbara and I have worked obviously on the program budget together. But I did want to get a chance to introduce Mr. Coakley since he arrived this morning. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Good morning or almost afternoon. MR. COAKLEY: Good morning. Very glad to be here. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Great time to step into the job, Mr. Coakley. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Now, the first question, as always -- and I know you're a new department and you're pulling people from around the county -- how many of these positions are not yet filled? MR. OCHS: Eight. We've got six -- six currently here. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. And the eight that are not filled, you're planning to pull those from other departments or what? MR. OCHS: Again, in staff rank 1 we have services that have historically been provided by full-time positions in the clerk of courts MIS function that we would take responsibility back under the board for system management, operations, application programming. And those equivalent vacancies or those FTEs, I should say, would come back into this budget to provide those -- continue to provide those services for the board. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: If you would for me identify which of those ten positions are on this flow chart, on this -- I'm sorry, structural chart. MR. DORRILL: Page 80. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: On page 80 would you tell me which 10 of those are number 17 MR. OCHS: Yes, sir. Okay. What we have currently -- Barbara, you can help me out with this -- let's start at the top. We have a director, secretary. Then on the far left-hand side, the managed -- manager of specialized applications, that is a existing FTE that works in utilities right now as a -- as a program analyst running the utility billing application. And then under -- moving to the right under common applications, we have the manager which would be Miss Wescott. And then we have a systems analyst which is Miss Ardrey. So I've got one, two, three, four, five. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's five. MR. OCHS: Then also under the far right-hand box, manager system, slash, networks, two of the system analysts shown there are telecommunications technicians that are currently on staff. So they are here as well. So actually we're looking at seven FTEs that are already on staff. MS. WESCOTT: Actually the senior secretary currently is just a part-time position. MR. OCHS: I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So we have six and a half instead of ten? MR. OCHS: Yeah, that's correct. That's a budgeted half-time FTE in the automated information systems' current year operating budget. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So six and a half of these people currently exist somewhere in county government. MR. OCHS: Yes, Commissioner. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Or somewhere in the manager's agency. MR. OCHS: In the manager's agency, yes. MR. DORRILL: And again, which two on the right-hand side are the two telephone technicians? MR. OCHS: Those are just system analysts, two boxes. That would be telephone -- or telecommunications existing staff. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And it's your intention that four additional people will come over from the clerk's office? MR. OCHS: We figure our support is about three FTEs currently from the MIS employees in the clerk's agency now that are providing the support for systems management, operations support, software programming, and maintenance of existing software applications like utility billing, the community development system, our work order tracking system that we will continue to maintain at least over the next several months until we can move into a more distributed processing environment; where as we've talked previously with the board, we want to move into that direction with personal computers and off-the-shelf software. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Is it -- is it your intention to -- to pull those FTEs from the clerk's office or to hire new? MR. OCHS: Well, what we would do as -- as the board had directed, we would post those positions. And then if employees from that agency decided they had an interest, we would certainly take a hard look at their credentials and if they wanted to come over try to accommodate that if they met our needs. MR. DORRILL: At their option. I think that was the way we left it with the clerk. MR. OCHS: Yes, yes. We are not recruiting those people at all. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: So we should see a reduction of a minimum of three people in the clerk's budget? MR. DORRILL: I would strongly encourage you to ask him that question when you see him a month from now. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: I would strongly encourage you to flag us on that when it comes up to make sure. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Let me ask a question similar to one I asked earlier in another context. When we have our information system up and running, the -- the work that's performed for the different enterprise funds will be billed to those funds; is that correct? MR. OCHS: That is correct. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: So that this -- what is a million dollar budget, million one, won't be totally ad valorem. It will be -- MR. OCHS: Absolutely not, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: And the -- the biggest user, I would assume, would be utilities in the first place; is that correct? MS. WESCOTT: Utilities and community development. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: So those two both being fee based funds then, then the bulk of this one million one hundred thousand is going to be paid for by those two funds I would guess. MR. OCHS: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: And leaving very little on ad valorem; is that correct? Do you have any idea how that split would be, a rough -- rough guess that you could give us today? MS. WESCOTT: Currently the split is about 60/40 with the 60 percent being the enterprise fund and 40 percent being from the general fund. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: And this probably doesn't anticipate us taking over the waste -- the solid waste department billing, though, because that also is an enterprise fund. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's in the revenue department, isn't it, Mr. Dotrill? MR. DORRILL: Yes, I think it does anticipate that. MS. WESCOTT: Yes. Well, it anticipates a -- MR. DORRILL: It does anticipate us assuming responsibility for that unless we get another bid for that. MR. OCHS: And, Madam Chairman, if I might, in the -- in the county manager's work plan -- and this is just a little bit of a quirk in timing -- but we will be coming to the board with an implementation plan as directed. That's scheduled for May. So that will be in advance of line item budget discussion, and we will obviously be getting into much more detail with the board on specifics at that time once Mr. Coakley and myself have a -- have a chance to do a little more needs assessment and put the implementation plan together. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: And for -- and for just that reason, I would suggest that we do our ranking as D and D. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Hancock I think had another question. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I -- I agree with Commissioner Norris. Just as a flag, when I see a manager over an analyst as a single branch, I get a little concerned. So whether that manager's performing more of a daily perfunctory role in that department or whether that manager is truly managing, I need to know. But I -- again, that reminds me of military work charts. You know, third class underneath a lieutenant, you know, and it just -- it never works. I mean, I -- I just -- I get very concerned when I see that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Do we have a working manager or not is what you're asking. COHHISSIONER HANCOCK: Basically yes and how hard a working manager is that position. You know, it just seems strange to have one manager with six people under him and another manager with one. And I'm looking for some equity there. MR. OCHS: Duly noted. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So we have a ranking on this of D and D at least until we see the implementation program. MR. OCHS: That's fine. Thank you. MR. SHYKOWSKI: That concludes -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That concludes the administrative services. MR. DORRILL: Took us -- took us about twice as long as probably what we had anticipated, but I'd have to tell you that it's one -- may have been one of the more legitimate question-asking sessions that we've ever had. My understanding of what -- what you want to do is that anything that was then determined or ranked D today, that you want to see that on what I typically call a wrap-up session. After you go through all of the -- the program budgets you're going to see, we're going to have a wrap-up session. And at the rate that we're ranking these, it may have 50 discretionary-ranked items that you want to see additional justification or information on before you make a decision to leave it in or not. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We -- we may have -- MR. DORRILL: And we have a wrap-up session currently identified, but the majority of that was to allow public input. And we may have to look at rescheduling your wrap-up session for this purpose to give you the type of information that you want. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah, it may be that we want to -- want to schedule re -- the wrap-up for either one afternoon next week. If we have a light hearing next Tuesday, we might want to do it then. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I think currently they've got Friday morning blocked off for wrap-up and public comment. MR. SHYKOWSKI: Public -- public input, correct. End of the day Thursday we had a little bit of time for wrap-up. But obviously depending upon the nature of the -- of the information you want, you know, we'll just be hearing departments Thursday as well. So they may not have that information assembled by end of the day Thursday. MR. DORRILL: The only other -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: What I might want to suggest then is that we take the public input since it's already been published probably somewhere on Friday morning as -- as noted and then go directly into the wrap-up session as soon as the public comments are over and just grind it out till it's done. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: That was going to be my suggestion is Friday afternoon is -- is currently not scheduled. And I know none of us have anything to do that day so, you know -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, I do but -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: It just makes sense to do wrap-up on Friday afternoon to try to get this condensed into this week. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Except -- except to the extent that we're asking departments to get us answers to questions Thursday afternoon. Will they be able to tell us by Friday? MR. DORRILL: And I may -- we may have to spill some of that over then to the following Tuesday and do it at the conclusion of the regular board meeting. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah, next -- next Tuesday's meeting is not a land use meeting, so we -- we may very well, if we can keep the agenda light, finish the wrap-up Tuesday. MR. DORRILL: The only other note that I had from -- I had two notes. One was to include acupuncture in our group health insurance benefits. And the other one was to remind you as you go through these sessions, you're going to have more, quote, volunteers for outcome-based performance budgeting than probably what we can -- can grasp and deal with in one -- one year. But as we went through the morning session, if you could at least keep in the back of your mind a department that you think has done a very good job with their factual presentation -- and I'll just throw out facilities management -- that that might be a great budget and there's some big enough dollars to where you wanted to get into some gain sharing with that department as -- as part of their line item budget. And that's -- again, that's probably a decision we ought to try and make Friday if we can so that we can start really bearing down on the departments you'd like to see for gain sharing time budgets. And I think we're done. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. MR. SHYKOWSKI: There is a request for the -- to start the afternoon session -- Judge Wilson would like to discuss the domestic violence unit first because she has a -- a court appearance. She has to be in court at 1:30. So if we could kind of bat out of order, so to speak, to accommodate her request. MR. DORRILL: Sure. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We tend to accommodate the judges. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Anything for the judge who ruled on Toby. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you. We're adjourned. One o'clock? MR. SHYKOWSKI: Yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: One o'clock. (A lunch break was held.) COHMISSIONER NORRIS: We're back in session here. Okay. We're ready to start Courts and Related Services, and I understand that Judge Wilson is going to make a quick presentation; is that correct? MS. TELLY: That's correct. What we're going to do is refer to page 28 of your packet which is an expanded request for a domestic violence unit, and we're going to ask Judge Wilson to speak on that first. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: This -- JUDGE WILSON: This is -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: This is -- JUDGE WILSON: This is Sharon -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: -- page 28, did you say? JUDGE WILSON: Page 28. This is Sharon Telly. She's our acting court administrator for Collier County. And I asked if I could speak only because I have court starting at 1:30 so I wanted to be able to make a couple of comments before I had to leave. I've never done this before so I'll just tell you what I think you need to know, and then you ask me questions. I thought I should start on a positive note, and Commissioner Hancock gave me this idea when I was in here earlier this morning. I want to come, first of all, to tell you -- and I didn't have time to do like Judge -- Guy Carlton does it. This is my own homemade one, but I wanted to tell you that we actually have already saved you $52,318. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: A check that you can return. JUDGE WILSON: Yes. It's a check that I would like to just give back to you. It's not in the form of a check, but hopefully you can read it and see that that's a significant amount of money, and that should make it a little less painful when we ask for it. Actually, we would like to have this back. (indicating) COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: For someone who hasn't done this before, you're very good at it, Judge. JUDGE WILSON: This is the amount of money that Collier County paid for the court administrator's position that Paul Brigham held that is now going to be paid by the circuit. Judge Reese has advised, I believe, Commissioner Matthews of that fact. This is not only a salary but also the benefit package. So that's the total amount that Collier County no longer is responsible for. What I'm here for is to ask you to consider a domestic violence unit for Collier County. I think that it's not only -- I understand the way budget works and why we're not considered essential and why we're considered discretionary from a budgetary point of view, but from the point of view of savings lives, I think that it is absolutely essential. Lee County has such a unit now. It has been in effect since April. It is working extremely well. It works well from several different angles. One is that we are able to deal with the family in total. As it is now, we have the potential for five different judges touching a family, having to do with domestic violence injunctions, having to do with a battery. Those are the misdemeanor judges. One -- Two -- There are to be two circuit judges handling it if it's an injunction, if there's a divorce, if a child is in juvenile court. We are not looking at this from a total concept and trying to affect change and benefit the family. What this unit does is to bring all of that together under one judge. We will have one investigator. We would have one coordinator. And we would have a clerical person to process the claims and to work with the assistants. Now, when I first got excited about the possibility of us getting a unit now, the first thing that I thought was, how can we do this without it costing the county any money. That was my first approach because I know that's what you're looking at. I have talked to the sheriff and to the Clerk of Courts to see if we cannot use some of their resources and then not have to ask the county -- Collier County for funds. You have in your packet I believe right under your schedule that Mike put on your package two letters. One is from Sheriff Don Hunter, and the other is from Dwight Brock, our clerk. Sheriff Hunter's letter, if you want to look at the first paragraph -- and you're welcome, obviously, to read the entire letter. It is very supportive of such a unit. The last sentence of the first paragraph says, "The increase in reported incidents and the impact upon an already burdened system makes your efforts to streamline the process most important." If you look at page 28 in the package there, in your package, arrests involving domestic violence, in '93/'94 we had 1,000. When you compare that to Lee County, they only had 1,200. Now, Lee County is twice as large as we are, and so obviously we have a very, very serious problem here that needs to be addressed. We also -- COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Did I hear something scary about murders? JUDGE WILSON: We have had three murders, domestic-violence-related murders since July. Lee County has not had any during that same time period. So we have to get a handle on this and we have to do it now. I had a reporter from "Naples Daily News" say, "Well, Judge Wilson, why can't you just wait around until sometime in the future when there might be some money?" And I said, "Because I don't want to be responsible for the possibility of someone else dying or being killed or more children being involved in this kind of a situation. I want to do everything I can to prevent that type of situation." This kind of a unit is able to do that because it is able to anticipate problems before they occur. It's able to arrest more quickly. It addresses the whole family. It gives counseling not only for the abuser but it also gets counseling for the person who is being abused as well as the children to help them deal with what they have seen and what they are being part of. And, as we all know, children from -- I hope that you know because the statistics are very clear. Children from homes where violence occurs are more likely -- 1,500 percent more likely to commit acts of violence or be involved in violence themselves. So, you know, if you want to know what the breakdown of the family is all you have to do is look at domestic violence situations. So we need to get a handle on it. This is a way of doing it. We also -- The domestic violence unit in Lee County follows through. They do not have the problem that we have been having where cases get dropped because the victim is reluctant to testify. They basically enter into a contract with the victim to -- and they assist them through with all kinds of things, finding housing, finding a job if they need to. It's an independent unit, so it's not answerable to, it's not looking at it from any particular perspective. It's just trying to see how we can deal with the problem. Yes? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: If I may, Judge Wilson, of the 1,000 arrests in '93/'94, how many -- do we know how many were repeats -- I mean, how many had prior records involving domestic violence of those 1,0007 We talk a lot about recidivism yet it's very difficult to -- you know, this type of program obviously would benefit recidivism greatly. I'm just trying to get a handle on what that recidivism currently is. JUDGE WILSON: The problem that we have is -- is with record-keeping. This figure that I got was from the sheriff's office. The sheriff now has victim advocates that they got from a grant, they pay for through a grant that the sheriff applied for. And, as a matter of fact, he is applying for another grant to get three additional victim advocates. The problem is as far as this unit is concerned, those victim advocates cannot help with the other parts of it. They can only help with the victim. So we have -- They will benefit, but they cannot be our unit. But to answer your question, they don't have the records to provide us. All I could tell you is what I see, and I do have repeats. I also handle now violations of injunctions work because, as you probably know, the legislature has determined that to be a misdemeanor, and so we have those, and that has -- you know, since the legislature passed that law, I have those on my docket regularly. That is -- That in and of itself -- the fact that you have a violation is recidivism. That means it's still happening. I can't tell you what this figure is for how many of those are coming back but -- and, again, unfortunately this is something that is -- just statistically is known that if you are -- you actually have arrest, that means that it's probably happened at least once or twice before. So it's actually the first time it's probably a recidivism. This type of -- The other thing about the arrest, that I talked to Captain Brown from Sheriff Hunter's office. He is willing to designate an investigator solely for domestic violence, that that's all that person does is to investigate domestic violence cases. That's if we set up a unit. Sheriff Hunter and Captain Brown have both said that this is going to be a big savings to them because as it is now, they don't have one judge who is available and understands what's going on with these families. They also have no way at the present time -- and this goes into the clerk's letter. If you look at the second paragraph of the clerk's letter, the last sentence, "The burden is becoming so great and the needs of the public so dire that a new concept must soon be devised if we are to provide high-quality services to the public." Actually, it's not even high-quality that services the public at all. The clerk has been trying and I've been asking for since I went on the bench, which is a little over two years ago, to get a program where we are able to tell when I have someone in front of me for a battery if they have ever been in the system before. And this is more on your question. They can't do that for me. So I don't know right now whether there's an injunction in place. I don't know if they've been arrested previously for a substance abuse problem. I don't know whether the children have been involved in the child neglect or child abuse. In Lee County, their domestic violence judge knows that. When he sits down on the bench and he looks at this family problem, it's all laid out for him. Dwight Brock would love to be able to do that for us, but he's unable to do that now because the way it is set up, the circuit judges who are handling the injunctions want their things done one way and that's under one file and one record-keeping, and the county judges are handling misdemeanors, and that's done a different way, different files, different department, and so he cannot mesh the two programs. If we were to set up this unit, then he could do that. It would save him -- probably save him two people, actually. So there's a cost savings that he's going to experience by doing this, and there's going to be less road deputies from the sheriff's point of view. I'm sorry. I'm talking too much. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Do you have any proposed funding source for this or you're going to leave that up to us? What are you going to do on that? JUDGE WILSON: Well, I want this, this 52,000 that's -- you know, that's just been a present to you. The other monies -- The proposal that is here Sharon has put together. So Sharon's a better person to answer specific questions about whether this is a computer and whether it's somebody's salary or whatever. I know that there are probably things in here that we could -- we don't absolutely have to have. You know, we are asking for three computers. We probably should do two computers. I mean, there are things that we could work on. This is for three -- I'm getting the lingo down -- FTE's, and that's, as I told you, for a coordinator, investigator, and a clerical person. We have the advantage -- and this is a cost-saving advantage to you -- of having -- Wendy Stephenson is here with us today. Raise your hand. Wendy is the family court administrator for the circuit, for the 20th Judicial Circuit, who set up the unit in Lee County. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. JUDGE WILSON: So she knows all the things to do and not do. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. JUDGE WILSON: And she is the one that helped us with a lot of the figures. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: We're not going to make a final decision today. JUDGE WILSON: I understand. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: So we just wanted to hear a little bit about the program and decide whether we want to -- how we want to rank it today in priority so -- JUDGE WILSON: I want -- I want you to rank it really high. That's why I'm here making this big pitch. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I sort of had that part. JUDGE WILSON: Well, the thing to remember -- and I -- and I had told -- When I talked about this in the media, I had said that we really hoped that we would not have to ask for any -- or if we asked for any monies, it was going to be not employees but just the startup. Unfortunately Lee County can commit some people to us, but they can't commit in writing from a budgetary point of view because some of the positions that they have are Lee County funded positions, but they are willing to help us and loan us people. I mean, this is a very, very do-able thing, and these are costs that are going to be only now. I mean, some of these costs you're not going to have to pay again in the future, and we can streamline it as much as you like. We have even a place where we can put them. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. JUDGE WILSON: So we have facilities. We probably can get desks. I mean, there's a lot of things that we can do. We're working with the shelter. The sheriff is committed to it. The clerk is committed to it. I mean, I just -- I don't think it's discretionary. I think it is essential. Commissioner Hancock. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Just real quickly, you mentioned using existing resources within the community. You know that discussion we've had time and time again, and these days it seems to center around the shelter for abused women, but my concern would be that if this is approved and moves ahead, that using existing resources, whatever they may be, without designating those resources as an adjunct to the program -- in other words, if it then -- it becomes incumbent upon the board to begin funding those programs to make yours work, I have a problem with it. JUDGE WILSON: And that's -- and that's why we are, in fact, asking you for this, so that that is not the case because I understand that philosophy absolutely, and we don't want that to happen, and we don't want you being in the position -- and having been a county employee in the past, I understand that position and don't want you to be in the position of funding social agencies. What we will be doing with the shelter is that they will be providing things to the unit to help the unit, but they are not necessary to the unit. The unit can operate whether they are there for us or not. Now, we may, of course, help them in the sense that we want them to get grants so that they can have more victim advocates so that they have those. They are resource. But you are not -- By doing this, funding the shelter, you are not funding a social agency. What you are, in fact, doing is a better job of using county resources that are already here. You are doing a better job of using your judicial resources, your clerk's resources, and your sheriff's resources by putting it into one concise comprehensive unit. Not only that -- I mean, that's from a financial point of view. But from a -- the point of view of your constituents, you are -- Literally you will be saving lives, because if we continue on the course that we are on now, there will be nothing we can do. All we are doing now is reacting after the fact, and that's all that we will be able to do unless we get this established and get it established as quickly as we possibly can. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: My feeling about this kind of a program is that until we have the annual report printed on, you know, toilet paper, this is the kind of thing we ought to be spending our money on instead of glossy annual reports. I mean, if government has an essential function, it's the health and safety of the people in the community, and this is crisis proportions in this community. So, you know, until we're printing everything on the double sides of already used paper, this is something we ought to spend money on. JUDGE WILSON: I know you came in late. I don't have to convince you though, huh? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: No. JUDGE WILSON: Well, what you missed was this. I wanted to show you that this is money that you've already been saved that we're giving you but I want it back. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: And an additional $63,000. JUDGE WILSON: Is that what it is? God. You're much better at that than I am. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I sense a question here of whether to put this discretionary or essential. I would like to remind that if we make it discretionary, that doesn't mean that it's definitely going to get pulled or going to get reduced. My problem with making it essential is that, you know, we've -- we're looking at an additional $63,000 expenditure. As Judge Wilson stated, there are some areas that if push comes to shove, reduction instead of removal is a possibility. So I would prefer to make it discretionary so that we can put it in that ranking, in that scope of things that is not mandated, and that would be my desire. JUDGE WILSON: Can you put part of it in as essential and leave the -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: The 52,318 as -- JUDGE WILSON: 52,000 essential and the rest of it discretionary? I would be happy with that. MR. SHYKOWSKI: The county manager has recommended against funding this program. JUDGE WILSON: Well, now wait. Tell why. MR. SHYKOWSKI: On the basis that per the adopted board fiscal policy, in the area of social services, you are looking for corresponding reductions in other areas like the sheriff or the clerk's budgets in order to fund this. MR. DORRILL: And my -- COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Well, we hear that we're going to see those. I mean, we're hearing that we're talking to a couple of people in the clerk's office. We're talking -- I mean, I heard -- JUDGE WILSON: Yes. And as a matter of fact -- COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I heard reductions. JUDGE WILSON: -- They would -- they would be willing to -- I mean, that would happen next year, but what they can't do is to give me a letter that says that I'm going to deduct this out of my budget this year because there's no unit for them to do it. But it is -- That is, in fact, what the plan is and that is what their -- and what Neil told me was that he felt this was a great idea and that it was based on really the concept that you have now of how you're approaching the budget is why he had to not recommend it, but I don't think that he intended for it to mean that he wasn't supportive of it. MR. DORRILL: At that time, we did not have the benefit -- JUDGE WILSON: Oh, he's here. MR. DORRILL: -- Of having an opportunity to talk to the sheriff because the sheriff otherwise has a domestic violence and victim's assistance program, and I saw this as a duplication of something that he was doing. But if beyond that the judge has assurance from those two individuals that the board is going to see a corresponding decrease in the appropriation and the staffing for those two departments in particular, then my interpretation is that it would meet your fiscal policy. As it was presented to me, it didn't meet the fiscal policy, and that's why I recommended against it. JUDGE WILSON: And the time it was presented to Neil too was just after Mr. Brigham had left and so we were not really actually sure what we were able to do at that point. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: For the same reason that when Mr. Camell said we'd see a savings and we told him let's see it, until then it's discretionary. That to me lends more credence to keeping it in the discretionary category because regardless of whether the idea is good or whether it says we're going to save money, we would like to see that before we move it up in those levels. JUDGE WILSON: I've already told you, you've saved this much money. (indicating) COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Agreed. There's another 63,000 we have to find to -- to -- if we desire to fund it. And, again, I don't want to treat one department any different than another. We're saying show it to us and we'll move ahead, and we need to say that to everyone. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, some are purchasing and some are life and death. So there might be a reason to treat some differently than others but -- COMMISSIONER NORRIS: And there might not, and rather than sit here all day and argue the merits of that, let's rank it and go on. We've got a lot of work to do today. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I've got one question. The $52,000 is the two people that you talked about pulling from another department? JUDGE WILSON: No. This is -- This is already -- This is the court administrator's salary that Lee County is now providing that Collier County no longer has to pay for. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Paul Brigham. JUDGE WILSON: Paul Brigham. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Is that how we finally resolved that, Mr. Dotrill? MR. DORRILL: Well, I'm going to allude to that as soon as the judge is -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Oh, okay. MR. DORRILL: -- done and hopefully on her way to her hearing at 1:30. JUDGE WILSON: He wants to get rid of me. I might say something else. MR. DORRILL: Lance Ito has never been late to a hearing yet. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: He is the standard. JUDGE WILSON: Thank God I'm no longer Lance Ito. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Excuse me, Judge Wilson. You're saying the $63,000 may be pulled from salaries and other departments or other -- JUDGE WILSON: Yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- constitutional officers? JUDGE WILSON: Yes. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: In order to make this zero out, we've found 52,000, we've got to find another 60,000 -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: -- out of the clerk and the -- MS. TELLY: Commissioner Matthews, we can start this unit with one employee for less than the $52,000 if they don't want to fund the two additional positions. All right. The $52,000 will give us a coordinator's position. If we have to lean to the 20th circuit who is willing to help us with part-time employees brought down from Lee County, that would at least get our unit started. We can't prove to you that we're going to save money until the unit is in existence. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I understand that. Again, I'm just trying to be fair to all departments. Any additional expenditures, we need to find the funding sources before we commit to them. I think regardless of the emotion, that's a prudent path to take, and that's what I'm suggesting. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I have no problem with that. JUDGE WILSON: I agree with you, and what I would say is that -- as you've already pointed out, since we already have shown you a savings, then if this can be essential, then we can start the unit. As Sharon said, we can start the unit. And you can leave the discretionary part of it, the other amounts, and -- you know, and leave it on -- and I agree with you, Commissioner Hancock. I don't want us to be vilified by some people because we have not shown you that there are savings. So I agree with you, and I would suggest that we put this as essential and leave the other part as discretionary. (indicating) CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Judge Wilson, are you talking about starting the program like right now? JUDGE WILSON: No. MS. TELLY: Like new fiscal year. JUDGE WILSON: New fiscal year. MS. TELLY: New fiscal year. We're asking you not to take that salary amount away from us, to leave it there so we can hire a coordinator, set it up, get it operating, and we can do that for the 50,000. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I've got that note on my page here. I won't forget about it, on my little, "We love Tobey" sign that came around. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Highlighted in yellow. JUDGE WILSON: Thank you. MS. TELLY: Thank you. JUDGE WILSON: This is what made me think of this. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Thank you, Judge Wilson. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you. Two people from the clerk, one person from the sheriff, and the court administrator. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is it a D or is it an E? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It's a D. I think we have to see the savings happen. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: The rest of it? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: The rest of it. Okay. Back to the beginning, I presume is where we are, on the courts. MR. DORRILL: Back to admin. Let me tell you in particular that while we're -- we are not in a dispute with the circuit court administration function, they have raised the issue with Mr. Brigham leaving the county about what I had called sort of federalizing -- but at a state level -- the county courthouse function. I sent the chairman some correspondence to this. Other urban counties in this circuit, Lee and Charlotte, are providing a direct cash subsidy to the circuit court administration. Specifically stated, that in Lee and Charlotte County, the county commissioners there just provide a lump sum cash advance of several million dollars to the state's circuit court administrator. And, in turn, all of the employees and all of the programs in the courthouse are then being managed and administered by the state court administrator and the chief judge of the circuit. I have been reluctant to just unilaterally agree to that until we could ask for some information. Mr. Smykowski is doing that. For no other reason, then with your willingness to advance them that money, you lose, in a sense, the control over those programs and the administration of all of the things that you're going to hear today. That does not mean that it doesn't work well, but they have expressed a willingness, and they have already put us on notice that the new courts administrator will be hired by the circuit court administration and a panel that they've put together and their salary paid for by the circuit court. All of the other programs, all of the other employees in the courthouse are currently on the payroll of the Board of County Commissioners and are ultimately responsible to you through your county manager. So we're in the midst of discussing what could be a wholesale change, but it's one that needs to be carefully evaluated and then make -- my making recommendation to you about what the request is and perhaps what way we should proceed. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: In essence, what you're saying is we may have a chain of command problem in that we have a lead person underneath the state or federal system, and that everyone below them underneath the county, if there is a difficulty or a problem there, we may have a chain of command problem more or less? MR. DORRILL: Not only a chain of command problem but a jurisdictional problem, whether it's whose personnel rules and regs are those employees under, who is ultimately responsible for the action of those employees, who is ultimately responsible to direct the programs because ultimately you're going to be asked to pay for those programs. And the philosophical concern that I have expressed to the chief judge and the state courts administrator in Fort Myers is that for -- I'll say 13 to 15 odd years, those programs that have been in the courthouse over there that have been on the board's payroll, are funded by the board, the board has maintained some local semblance of control and direction albeit typically through the judges, our county judges and the county circuit judges that are there, and they're asking us now to change that and let these people be under the direction of a deputy state courts administrator and the Fort Myers office in the administration, the circuit-wide responsibilities, but having you pay all the costs associated with that. So it's more of a command and control type issue in return for which you're being asked to pay. Other counties do it differently, and before we get to that point, we would probably be back to you I would think within a month or so and be prepared to show you the analysis that we've done. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: We would still have the control of the budget I would assume? MR. DORRILL: You will ultimately have control over the appropriation. The level or the extent to which you fund courts and the whole article five situation in the state is one that's long suffering, and whether that should be a state responsibility or should it be the responsibility of the local county commissions has been a debate for many years. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. Yes, ma'am? MS. TELLY: Okay. I guess we're ready to start with our Probation Department. George Drobinski, our chief probation officer, will make his presentation. MR. DROBINSKI: Good afternoon, Commissioners. On the salaries, I'd like to direct your attention first that there's a 4 percent decrease in staffing. That was from an office assistant two position that I felt we could do without. That was recently vacated. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Sold. MR. DROBINSKI: We just took it out of the running all together and -- so our budget actually for this coming year is going to be about $40,000 less at this moment than it was the previous fiscal year. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: That seemed to have a little bit of condition to it there, "at this moment." MR. DROBINSKI: Right now, as a matter of fact, that office assistant two position is eliminated. So we're already starting without any expenses. One expense of $12,000 which was for a vehicle for the intensive supervision officer to conduct field contacts, that's only a one-time cost. So we're not repeating that for this next fiscal year. So I'm combining the office assistant two position with that vehicle. That's about 40,000. So there's no catches or conditions with that. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Are you -- How are you handling your workload at the present time? MR. DROBINSKI: At the present time, what we're looking to do is increasing our automation which will enable us to work more effectively with the computers and such. We're doing fine. We have upwards of 6,600 cases, for example, in the last fiscal year and that's being -- that would be dealt with by 23 staff members. Now with 22 staff members, we find out we're dealing with a more complex caseload. We're -- And probably for the sake of Commissioners Hancock and Mac'Kie, terminologies that I'm going to be using would be clients that we have on probation, offenders, probationers, which are typically individuals that have -- from 16 years of age to 70 years of age. They've lived their lives with dysfunctions or dissocial elements or substance abuse. We're basically charged with rehabilitating them or at least -- There's rehabilitation and there's accountability, and we've mixed those two together and say that if they comply with the conditions that the Court imposes, that's great. If they do not, we have the accountability to violations and probation warrants and effectively take them over and incarcerate them. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Are all of your 22 positions filled at the moment? MR. DROBINSKI: Yes, they currently are. The base level consists of what the statute provides for mandatory services, and also that's in the supervision of the offenders, pre-sentence investigation, community service program, violations of probations to issue for offenders who do not comply. Pre-sentence investigations are ordered in a number of cases by the misdemeanor courts, and this is gathering information as a sentencing tool for the judges to utilize, and that's only .5 full-time employee because that's done by a specialized officer who's also working as a senior probation officer as well. So she shares duties in that regard. And the intensive supervision program, which we recognize some success over the last couple of years, that's 1.5 full-time employees. The reason I'm mentioning a program such as that is we have a hierarchy of supervision that we deal with. Individuals that are the lowest risk offenders, we started -- as I approached the board last year on, was the profile telephone monitoring program that we've had success on. We've got 380 people on currently. And what this does is divert the attention of the normal probation officers, which there's nine, and allows these low-end offenders to report via the 900 line. And on the standard probation, which is the next level, we feel that we have fairly substantial reporting standards which they come to see us once a month. We see them right after court, intake them, refer them, do the referrals to the appropriate agencies, and supervise them from that point. That's what's known as standard probation. Those individuals that violate the terms and conditions of that standard probation, the worst of the worst on misdemeanor probation. They may be eligible for the intensive supervision program. If you look on the third page, I need to point out a correction which is under "Performance." There's a line -- the fourth line of "Performance" which says, "Average of three contacts performed on each offender weekly." That should read, "Average of three contacts performed on each intensive supervision probationer offender weekly." COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: I'm sorry. You said the third page? MR. DROBINSKI: It's the third page. Well, it's where "Workload" -- MS. GANSEL: Page four. MR. DROBINSKI: I'm sorry. It's page three on mine. And that's for ISP. To understand that, standard probationers have to come in to see us once a month. In addition, we also do field contacts to their home because we're trying to modify their behavior, both from a standpoint of what they're ordered to do and also in their environment as well. With the intensive supervisioners what we deal with is three contacts a week on an average. So, again, we're enhancing that fear of detection with these offenders. Again, we're referring them to the appropriate programs, and what we're hoping to see is we're offsetting the population from the jail because we're monitoring them more effectively and closely. And if we correct that behavior in the community, we see that that's more successful than putting them in a total institution, and once they get released, the chance of recidivism is high. We typically see upwards of a third of our probationers right from the get-go comply with their conditions and move on, become successful. Probably another 20 percent after that are going to comply right around the time of their expiration of probation. The following -- The rest of it is going to be based on violations of probation. So, again, rehabilitation and accountability which we feel that we are providing. Any questions thus far? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: If I could interrupt, in a nutshell, it sounds to me like you're saying you're going to do more for less? MR. DROBINSKI: Well, we're dealing with unpredictable clientele simply because they don't want to be there. They certainly are adverse as far as paying their dues to the courts. In addition to us trying to be self-supporting -- which we are not. We did have to go before the board last year and ask for funding. We've heard, you know, $2 per capita per citizen of Collier County for probation. We heard last year the court administration $1.55. Last year it was about a $1.34 per capita to have a person on probation. What we did is provide the service to rehabilitate them and direct them to the counseling and such. We always try to provide less for more. It does cost, of course, but, you know, we can take something in the context of the intensive supervision program, our plum basically as I call it. If you take a conservative figure, $44 a day to keep the inmate in the jail and if we have these intensive supervision probationers who prior to this program were going to the jail -- Now, we have capacity of 75 offenders on this program. If we just cut how much it would cost per day for those 75 offenders to be incarcerated, we're dealing with about $600,000 that we're routing out of the system from the jail. So we like to think that, yes, even though we humbly come before the commission and say we're not self-supporting, we're trying to extract all the money we can from the probationers and it's -- you know, we fall short. We hopefully see the savings in other areas. What I tried to do last year, what I promised the commission is I tried to get funding from the DOC, Department of Corrections. It was in the statutes that there could be state-matching funds. That was a tease basically. They didn't have the money funded. We're trying to use volunteers. We're trying to use interns. We're currently going through audits and assessments to close any gaps or cracks we have within our system so -- and we're also watching our waivers. I just recently approached the consumer creditors. Waivers is what I approached the board last year and said that that was a substantial amount of money that we weren't recognizing as collectable. By statute, someone who is the sole support of the family, has an employment handicap, has been in the hospital, incarcerated, they're eligible for a waiver of the cost of supervision. We feel that if we use consumer creditors at no cost to us and at no cost to the offender, they can help us better assess the abilities of these offenders so if they request a waiver, now we have some hurdles that are placed in front. And with those efforts, they have to provide more detailed analysis of what they can and can't do, and we hope to see a reduction of the waivers, therefore, an increase in the revenues that we would recognize. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I don't know if anyone has any other questions, but I'm seeing both of these as either mandatory or essential. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Your base level is mandatory, isn't it? MR. DROBINSKI: Base level is mandatory. The other areas of office management and public service and technical support, of course, is someone answering the phones which is not part of the statute. It's for the management which is the chief probation officer and the senior probation officer and also a -- one full-time employee needed for the Immokalee office. That's something that makes us to a degree unique, is that we do have a satellite office in Immokalee with a caseload of about 500 individuals that are on. It's a low-income area. It's a migratory area and such. So we may see some shortfalls in revenue collection there, but we do need that. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: E sounds appropriate to me. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Yeah. That sounds essential. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: There's four and a half -- four and a half FTE's in the technical support area? Is that what we're saying? MR. DROBINSKI: It's in the office management and technical support. That's myself included in that. That's the senior probation officer. That's the .5. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And how do you come not to be included in the mandated part? MR. DROBINSKI: It's not in the statute. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: The person who runs the show is not in the statute. Okay. MR. DROBINSKI: Believe me. I looked everywhere and it's -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: You would love to be an H, wouldn't you? I see it as essential. That support level sounds -- sounds -- sounds reasonable. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Sounds reasonable. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: The one position that was deleted came out of the office management? MR. DROBINSKI: Came out of the -- Came out of the office management. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Thank you very much. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Thank you. MR. DROBINSKI: Thank you. MS. TELLY: I think we're up to page eight which is Court Security. I'm going to ask Gary Stover to come up. MR. STOVER: Good afternoon, Commissioners. For the benefit of those who are new, court security was approved in 1990 by the Board of Commissioners, and it was to fill a void that was left by Sheriff Hunter at that time when he pulled so many bailiffs from the courthouse. We had something like 21 bailiffs for seven judges at that time. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: When was that that he pulled those? MR. STOVER: 1990, ma'am. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: '90? MR. STOVER: '90. MS. TELLY: Right after we moved into the new building. MR. STOVER: The deputies were -- COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Excuse me. MR. STOVER: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Mr. Dorrill, is his microphone on? MR. DORRILL: It is. You're going to have to speak up. That microphone is not very loud. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Oh, okay. MR. STOVER: Anyway, at that time Sheriff Hunter pulled some people, and it left a void that had to be filled and court security came into existence. We managed to save the county money in two ways. One, the facilities manager was able to cancel a $25,000 annual contract for private security for the campus. And the second way we saved money is the people who are there now are paid about one-third that the certified real people were paid who were filling their position prior. We're operating -- We continue to operate under budget without expansion. We're primarily working out of the courthouse and Immokalee court with a campus patrol. We have specialized equipment that we use which is X-ray machines, magnetometers, hand scanners. We are a little unusual in our hours compared to other county employees. We work from 6:45 a.m. To 9:00 p.m. We operate two shifts. We scan approximately 250,000 people a year. We confiscate approximately 30 knives a day, one to two guns a year, five to ten chemical maces. We render medical assistance and answer panic alarms. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Last year you scanned 250,000 people and you got two guns and 7,000 knives and drugs one time? Is that what you told -- MR. STOVER: Yes, ma'am. We also are there for after-hour court-related programs such as the Alcohol Information Program, the Victim Impact Panel, the Economic Crimes Rehabilitation Program, the Citizens Foster Care Review Panel, and the Guardian Ad litem after-hours court-related functions. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I don't really see any room for reduction here nor a need for a reduction. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: How many people -- If there are seven FTE's, is basically what we're talking about manning the scanners? MR. STOVER: That's primarily, yes, ma'am. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Because the -- Then we're going to talk in another section about -- exterior security and the bailiffs in the courtroom are actually still sheriff's deputies; right? MR. STOVER: Yes, ma'am. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So we're talking about seven people to monitor that -- that little -- that screening thing. MR. STOVER: Yeah. That's correct. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: That's two shifts? MR. STOVER: On two shifts. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: How many days a week? Five? MR. STOVER: Five days a week, and then on Saturday we're there from 9:00 to 1:00. In the evenings we do every building on campus and County Barn Road. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: But isn't that a different -- Isn't this the next one, exterior? MR. DORRILL: External. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I thought that was exterior. MR. DORRILL: External we have a separate program. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: This is $200,000 and I know it's essential. I'm sure it's extremely important, but I have always wondered when Collier County raised to the level of having to have this kind of security for the courthouse. And to see that we got two guns and, you know, drugs once for our $200,000, I guess that's the good news, but, God, that's a lot of money. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Well, it wasn't too long ago that defendants and so forth in courtrooms were being shot. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Not here. MS. TELLY: There was one in Seattle. There's been -- in Florida they've been too. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Well, I'd prefer it not happen here. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I just think it's a whole lot and I'd rather -- a lot -- Philosophically it's a lot of money to keep our judges safe when we're not willing to spend $50,000 to keep a whole lot of battered spouses safe. MR. STOVER: Prior to that, we had sheriff's deputies being paid three times as much to do the same job. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: To do the same job, but they didn't have that scanner. We didn't even have that. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Commissioner Mac'Kie, if you'd like to take $60,000 out of this and give it to another program, if you want to suggest that, I'll let you suggest it, but there's a minimum level of security I think we need to afford public officials such as judges. I think Judge Wilson probably would agree and I don't -- I don't have a problem with this. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I think that we -- that we might -- could spend less money to accomplish a reasonable goal. I think that -- MS. TELLY: Commissioner Hac'Kie, if we did not have this program, the chances of a shooting in a domestic violence courtroom would probably -- MR. STOVER: Double or triple. MS. TELLY: -- I would say quadruple easily because that's where the potential violence is. And you get people coming in there angry if it's to file the action, to go into the courtroom, or whatever. And by them being there -- Let's put it this way. Maybe he's only stopped two guns coming in, but how many people have stopped when they walked in the door and turned around and gone out? That answer we will never know. And if we can save just one life, I think it's -- I don't think we want that on our hands. MR. STOVER: The campus patrol and County Barn Road was an addition under budget. This was not intended when we first started when we added these other services under the budget. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I see base level being mandatory. Well, actually, it's not -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: It's not mandatory. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: -- not mandatory. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Under the guidelines I would say -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: It's essential. The external security to me is -- that really is discretionary. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: We had a long conversation about it in the past. It seems to me though -- Mr. Dotrill, correct me if I'm mistaken, but the last time we talked about the external security in the budget hearings that we were talking over $20,000, weren't we? It looks like now we're doing it for one-half of an FTE for 13. MR. DORRILL: I can't recall. It's just sort of a basic lock-down of all the buildings here in the evening. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I just recall it being more money than 13,000. MR. DORRILL: It may have been. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: And I believe that this probably is an improvement then over what we were hearing before so E and D is fine with me. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I have an E and D. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Fine with me. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. Thank you very much. MR. STOVER: Thank you. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Witness Management. MS. TELLY: Witness Management. I'm going to call on Carol Fritsch. MS. FRITSCH: Good afternoon. We're currently working with six FTE's and we have been since 1993, and we're requesting that it can stay the same. We are looking for an automated computer system which could enable us to keep going as we are going. Our caseload seems to increase in between 10 to 15 percent a year. And if you turn to page 11 -- I'm sorry. It's your 14. MS. TELLY: Your 14. MS. FRITSCH: On the workload, you can see that increase by the amount of subpoenas that are issued each year, and we have projected a 1995/1996 figure. And now we're working, you know, with an increased amount of judges. We now have two felony positions, one juvenile, and three misdemeanor, and that's why we're requesting that we still maintain the six, and that is including myself. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Are your positions currently filled, your six positions? MS. TELLY: Well '- MS. FRITSCH: I have five that are currently filled. One is kind of in limbo. Hopefully it will be soon. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Is it currently vacant; and if so, how long has it been vacant? MS. TELLY: Since last '- MS. FRITSCH: Since I've been here. MS. TELLY: Which was '- MS. FRITSCH: October. MS. TELLY: It's been vacant since October. The employee is out on extended leave. It's kind of an unusual circumstance that we don't want to get into, and our discussions with Tom Whitecotton last week -- they're hoping to be able to move towards a termination but at this point -- so far they have not been able to. Carol has been functioning with a temporary. She's currently without a temporary but should have another one starting in on the 20th. The problem with that is she's expending a lot of funds out of her operating budget and she's hoping to be able to move forward and hire to replace the employee on leave as soon as she gets the go ahead from the manager. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Hay I ask what the position is? MS. FRITSCH: It would be an office assistant one position that's open. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I guess the obvious question is, is the absence of that position causing you to expend overtime dollars on other positions? MS. FRITSCH: Yes. MS. TELLY: Plus paying high rates for a temporary. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: On our page 14 under "Performance" it says, "Assist 55,000 witnesses saving county 930,000." Explain that part. MS. FRITSCH: Okay. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Is this avoided cost of some sort? MS. FRITSCH: It's for the subpoenas and the witness fees. Instead of having a person subpoenaed each time the case gets continued, we send out continuation letters which serve the same purpose of the subpoena. Now, this was -- this was figured out for last year's budget. Now subpoenas are $20 for service instead of 12, so that would increase. Each time a witness appears in court, it is $5 for the witness fee, and many times, you know, we ask them to contact us prior to the court date because if it -- you know, when they're subpoenaed for a specific date, many times it's continued. We average it continues about four times each case. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. So it's really avoided costs; otherwise, we would -- if we didn't notify them in advance of a continuance, we would have to pay them when they showed up. MS. FRITSCH: Exactly. MS. TELLY: Pay the $20 subpoena fee in addition to the $5 appearance fee. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Not to mention the disruption in their lives that it causes that we avoid also. certainly that '- MS. TELLY: A lot of angry people. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, that was a fine presentation. Who would like to suggest a ranking here? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: It says it's mandated by Statute 43.35; therefore, I guess we come up with an H on that? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I assume we do. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Silent third down there? COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Yeah. It's a three. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Thank you. MS. TELLY: Next I'm going to call on Darlene Hitchell for our Court Counseling program. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I would like to point out, if we added up everything we're saving, I think the county would be making money. MS. HITCHELL: Hi. I'm Darlene Hitchell, court counselor for the Court Counseling program. Basically I understand there was a question at the last meeting that I wasn't available for and the only question being the automation project. MS. TELLY: Why don't you start at the beginning and tell them about your program because the commissioners were not at the meeting with Neil -- MS. MITCHELL: Okay. MS. TELLY: -- so they're not -- you're not asking for any expansion here -- MS. MITCHELL: No. MS. TELLY: -- just for your computer system. MS. MITCHELL: Basically we provide the state-mandated evaluations for and treatment recommendations to the felony and misdemeanor courts and state and county probation. We also provide state-mandated evaluations for the Marchman Acts that are brought in each evening -- COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Which are what? MS. MITCHELL: -- we go over the next morning. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Which are what? MS. MITCHELL: They're the old Myers Act. They've changed the statute now. They're Marchman Acts now. We also provide state-mandated treatment evaluations through juvenile arbitration and provide and coordinate treatment referrals and activity between the criminal justice system and treatment agencies, community institutions, and private attorneys when treatment is court ordered. We have two FTE's which that has been maintained throughout the existence of the program. Are there any questions? COMHISSIONER NORRIS: This backup material points out that the base level at least is mandated. And the automation program -- could you tell us where you are in that program? MS. MITCHELL: Yes, sir. We have received quotes from two agencies, our MIS department here for the Clerk of Courts and also through another agency who works with the AIS system. They were referred to me by our AIS department. The quotes are very similar in cost and the -- the $3,500 for the programming and the $1,500 for the printer. The printer is what is necessary to be able to print out the information that we need. Right now you see -- we see about 25,000 people -- or 2,500 people a year, and all of that information is maintained on index cards which are alphabetized by month and year, and if a state agency or a judge or probation wants to know when we saw someone, we have to go back through all these cards to find it. This system will eliminate that procedure, and we will input everything onto the computer and then just put in names. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: that one. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: One. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: to a computer? Okay. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: MS. MITCHELL: I could go for essential on I could go for an E on that 1995 going from index cards Thank you very much. Thank you. MS. TELLY: I guess that brings us down to the Court Administration budget. We currently have six FTE's, three of which are in the base level because they are required by state statute. To go over them briefly on your page 22, our guardian ad litem program is required by state statute. They are the ones that protect the children who are involved in our court system. They also monitor the local social service agencies for compliance to court orders. We have a mediation/arbitration program which, again, is required by statute. They step in for dispute resolution in circuit civil cases, family law cases. They're also involved in juvenile arbitration as well as running an economic crime program. They also help with senior citizens who have been arrested for petty theft. The other essential is our court interpreter. We have one full-time court interpreter. In addition to coordinating our needs in our interpreter area, she interprets full time in our courts. I would imagine she has saved us since her employment -- Maria came on in -- Without looking, I think she's been with us two years. Maria also goes into the courts and does a considerable amount of our interpreting in the Spanish as opposed to calling in unnecessary people which we pay on a contractual basis. She is willing to run between two and three courtrooms as needed as opposed to paying somebody an hourly rate to sit there for a two-hour period when they might have one defendant. So as far as our base is concerned, those are the three base positions that are required. If -- The guardian program on our page 23 gives you rough statistics as far as how many cases they are appointed to. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: These are all mandated; right? MS. TELLY: They are all mandated. I don't know if you want me to go into anything additional on that or not or if you just want -- COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I'm ready to put an H on them. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Base level mandated? COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yes. MS. TELLY: Base level mandated. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Appears to have one position for each mandate. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. MS. TELLY: All right. Turning over to page 24 which is the support staff. I think that we're pretty well bare bones on this. We have three support staff members. They are divided up to two in the Court Administration area. One individual is a judicial receptionist. Her main function is to answer the phone calls for the courthouse information as well as offering all -- answering all overflows for the judiciary, the guardian ad litem, mediation, witness management, court counseling, security, interpreter. We have a secretary in the mediation area. She deals with probably 40 volunteer mediators, sets up all the scheduling of the mediation programs. They have a small claims pre-trial where she has these volunteers coming in one day a week. It's her responsibility to schedule, direct and manage and run the office. The third is the secretary in the Court Administration office. There again, hers is basically the same function and that she's doing courtroom schedules. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Sounds like E. Sounds like they're all busy. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Essential. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Okay. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: This next one is one I know Commissioner Matthews had mentioned earlier about wanting to take a look at with the volunteer coordinator position, not only in the clerk's office but over in the courts also. MS. TELLY: Okay. This is newly created. I believe it was as of October 1. It is funded through Human Resources. We have it as a half-time position, and basically the description is outlined. The Citizens Foster Care Review Panel which is the panel which reviews all of the judicial reviews for juvenile dependency cases and makes recommendations to the Court for this position -- he is coordinating their volunteers and assisting, and he's saving money from the clerk's standpoint because the clerk was having to have the people make all the necessary copies for their meetings which are held twice monthly to review juvenile cases. He has stepped in and doing that. He is also assisting the other court's departments to see what their volunteer needs are and where he can assist on that end. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Just to understand this, the volunteer coordinator himself is doing a lot of this work. MS. TELLY: Correct. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: And, again, we hear that they're doing things the clerk -- the clerk's office was doing which is about the third time we've heard that today. MS. TELLY: Right. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: What about specific volunteer coordination that has, in fact, avoided costs? I mean, are there any cases you can cite specifically? In other words, has this position '- MS. TELLY: It hasn't been in place long enough to state that. I'm going to be honest with you. It came in in October. The first thing that Mr. Kraley had to do was come in and try and learn what was going on in the county. He had to touch base with all of the agencies to find out what their needs are. He has just about gotten that completed to see where he can be assist -- of assistance. I believe he has contacted Mr. Drobinski. I don't know -- I honestly do not know what, if anything, he has offered to them, and he is compiling what needs might be out there. Then he has to see what resources are available and make recommendations. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. So we don't have a specific yield as of yet? MS. TELLY: No, we do not. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Would you have -- in our June hearings, would you have a better idea? MS. TELLY: I would think so. What I can do is specifically get together with Mr. Kraley prior to that and see what progress and have him get a little packet together that could be presented to you prior to that. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. Well, why don't we assign a rank of D on this one then, and that will flag us that we're going to get a little better look at it after we have more experience in June. MS. TELLY: I'm not sure if this -- Is this a recap position? Do you know, Mr. Dotrill? MR. DORRILL: I'm not aware that it is. MS. TELLY: Page 27 we go to the public guardian trust fund. This one, again, we do have a need in Collier County unfortunately for -- mostly it's elderly indigent that are unable to care for their own needs. We are averaging I would say 30 cases a year. This, again, is also a fairly new program but we are -- in fact, I have phone messages waiting for me to appoint two new ones. If an individual is placed in Naples Community Hospital and they are unaware of relatives, any close friends or associates, they are referred to the public guardian program for assistance. We will ultimately appoint someone who has attained their certification as a public guardian to go out and evaluate the needs of this person. Their primary objective is, A, to find out if they are, in fact, qualified for the program -- I would like to point out to the commission that we had a referral within the last two weeks of a gentleman that was in Naples Community Hospital. He had been found in his home, and he had been in there several days, and it was not a pleasant sight from what I am told. Our public guardian went out and spoke to him in the hospital. He was -- He found out that not only was this man not indigent, he has located a relative in the northeastern part of the United States. The man has over $270,000 in the bank plus owns his home, his vehicle, and that, but unfortunately they did not know this at the time. This will not be a bill to our county. This will be -- end up being a private guardianship and cost not assigned. So this is the purpose of these individuals, to go out and do some investigative work and find out and make sure that it is money that should be expended by the county. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I note that you have no personnel -- MS. TELLY: There are no staff. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: -- Allocated to this position. MS. TELLY: That's correct. It's handled through the Court Administration office. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. So even so, it sounds like it fits the criteria for D. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I think so. MS. TELLY: It's based on Statute 744 so I don't know -- COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Oh, is it? COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Is it based on statute or required by statute? MS. TELLY: Well, let's see. Based on Florida Statute 744 and Collier County Ordinance 92-102, neither of which I have a copy with me. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. Why don't we leave it as discretionary, and if it's required by statute, then it changes. MS. TELLY: Okay. We've already talked about the domestic violence unit, unless you have any other questions you want to ask regarding it. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I think we had a nice long presentation on that one. I'm sure there's nothing else we need to -- What did we assign that? D? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: That was discretionary. MS. TELLY: That was discretionary. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. Thank you very much. Now, it's time for our one o'clock Emergency Services division. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: We're gaining on it. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Gaining on it. We're only an hour and ten minutes behind now. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: At this rate we should be caught up by about 9:00 p.m. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: By about October. MR. IJAMS: I'm sorry. What? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: For the record? Would you give your name for the record, please? MR. IJAMS: Norris Ijams, Emergency Service administrator. MR. GRIFFIN: I'm Bill Griffin, the administrative manager for Emergency Services. MR. IJAMS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just by the way of introduction, let me introduce a couple of people from my immediate staff who you all haven't had the opportunity to meet. Mr. Griffin here on my left is our administrative manager, and the young lady back here behind me who will hold up her hand, I think, is Jean Moore. She's our administrative -- division administrative secretary. She's the one that -- all the communications down in the corner you see "J.H.", that's the lady. We are prepared I guess. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, let the -- let the festivities begin then. MR. DORRILL: Go ahead, Bill or Norris, either One. MR. GRIFFIN: On page two of your program budgets -- MR. IJAMS: I don't know if this mike is -- MR. DORRILL: It's on. You need to get real close. MR. GRIFFIN: I can't see my page. On the page for division administration, we basically have two programs in our division administration office, and those essentially comprise all the various management duties of the office to provide support to all the operating departments within the division. If you have any specific questions on any of the programs, we would be prepared to answer them for you. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I don't know if it's appropriate for this page or if it's the chart on the page before, but we have the administrator, and then we have the administrative manager and the communications manager, and from an ignorant person's perspective, it looks to me like that ought to be one job. Can you tell me why it's two jobs? MR. FINN: Actually, you'll see, Commissioner, that there's a complete package for the 800 megahertz aspect. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's the communications? MR. FINN: Yes. And that begins on page six which I believe will be the next budget we'll look at. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And the administrative manager has to be separate from that person? It's not one -- It's not a job that one person can handle? MR. IJAMS: Correct. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Because -- MR. FINN: Commissioners, the communications manager was brought on board to assist the county or to simply implement the entire 800 megahertz program. As you know, that's an $8 million construction project, as well as the ongoing maintenance and the general level of complexity associated with that program. MR. DORRILL: The board had specifically directed us to add that position in mid year last year to oversee the contract administration and then be responsible for the operational administration of the system once it comes on line. That was not part of the original adopted budget, but that was an additional position that was added at the board's direction last spring. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Quick question -- and, Mr. Dotrill, maybe you can answer this. The one position removed of the communications manager, was it transferred at the same salary that it was previously? In other words, was the communication manager's salary the same as the 800 megahertz administrator? MR. DORRILL: I believe they are one and the same. MR. GRIFFIN: Yes. It's the same position, same salary. MR. DORRILL: Same individual, but it's anticipating that we are going to have an 800 megahertz system. They have spun it out of administrative department and it created its own cost center. I guess that's what Mr. Finn said we'd get to in just a minute. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: It would appear to me two elements of management and administration and administrative support would be both E, essential. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: That's fine. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, I'm just confused. On page three where we're talking about personnel impact requires two FTE's, am I on the wrong page? Management and administration, page three of ours, is what we're talking about right now? MR. GRIFFIN: Correct. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: "Requires two FTE's. If only management and administration is funded, only one FTE would be eliminated." I just need that translated. I don't understand. MR. FINN: What that means, ma'am, is there are three positions currently in this department. If the board were to elect to only fund program rank number two, one position would be eliminated that does everything that's in program number three. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. And then in program number three, there are going to be no personnel impact? MR. FINN: No, ma'am. That would restore the three positions that make up this entire department. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: So, in reality, if what we're marking as essential in management and administration, we are saying there are two essential FTE's in that? MR. FINN: Yes. That is the way I would interpret that. MR. DORRILL: And then I think, Commissioner, he said that the third one would be discretionary. I believe that's what he said. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: I did not go to that yet, but I at least recognize possibly an E on staff rank two, management administration. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: And that's two positions which you're not -- COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Right. I'm saying -- MR. DORRILL: That's the division administrator and his secretary. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Right. MR. DORRILL: The third individual in the division is -- MR. FINN: That would be the administrative manager position whose primary responsibility includes all budget management and the contract management. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: With all due respect, I don't understand when you have the words administrative manager together. I mean, good grief. We've got the manager and then we've got the administrative manager, the manager of the administration. Then what's the head guy doing, for God's sake? MR. IJAMS: Busy. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, I wish I didn't know it was you so I could talk about it in some more of an abstract perspective, but it doesn't make sense to me. This looks to me to be one of those really -- COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Too vertical. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: -- Management-heavy areas. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: That you're saying, is it sounds too vertical to you? COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Too vertical. That's -- That's the way to say it. Too vertical. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Well, what's your response, Mr. Ijams, for it being too vertical? Are these positions necessary? MR. IJAMS: I think what is confusing the picture at the moment is that when we added the communications manager to our organizational chart, that would appear I think to anyone that there are four people within the administration, and I would urge you to leave that as it is for the next two to three years because we're not -- we're not totally sure at this point where the communications manager really fits in to the -- to the -- to Collier County government. The other point is that the administration manager's responsibilities as you -- as we go through this budget, you will see that he administers some of the -- let me call them special programs that -- for instance, the Immokalee health clinic and others, that that responsibility rests solely within his -- within his office. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: The direct thing that -- Commissioner Norris, you've helped me focus in on what my question is. My question is, why can't the Emergency Services administrator's job and the administrative manager's jobs be merged? I recognize communications manager is a separate one, but why do we need two managers? MR. DORRILL: I guess they could, and that's why we're distinguishing between the two different packages here. A little better sense of history, the position that used to be titled administrative manager was formerly -- and I'll say formerly -- it was as recent as two years ago in the EHS department along with several other positions. And in an effort to increase the effectiveness and to reduce the total number of positions in EHS, we looked at what the necessary number of positions throughout the whole division were, and it was felt at that time by the board that the administrative manager's position, who is Mr. Griffin, was underutilized working just in EHS. So that position was moved out of EHS. There was a training or compliance position that was eliminated at the same time in an effort to eliminate positions in EHS and to provide in replace of that a single position that would do work throughout the whole division. So as little as two years ago this position was in the EHS department. It was underutilized in the EHS department. So it was put in the administrative department for the entire division to handle things that a division administrator would otherwise do. And from one division to the next, they can be totally different. You've got divisions on the one hand like administrative services and public services where the division administration consists of two people, Mr. Ochs and his secretary or Mr. Olliff and his secretary. And the greatest extent I'd say has probably been Transportation. In the Transportation administrative section, you have Mr. Archibald, a secretary, and you may have three additional support positions who are engineers and doing other project-coordination-type things. So it can be as few as two, as many as five. In this particular case it's three. It's usually a function of some history and the fact -- and the reason that we've distinguished it between package two and package three is that package two is, frankly, more important and is the basic division administration that we could propose to you in order to still have someone responsible for that whole division. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So because of the way it's divided up, you're sort of acknowledging the overlap or the -- the -- what did you call it -- the too vertical nature. MR. DORRILL: That's why we've -- That's why we've said one -- one is essential. The other is discretionary. And I'm trying to give you a little sense of history in terms of how we get here and then trying to give you a little sense of comparison as to how the other division administrators' offices are set up. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And is there -- Is there -- I guess -- I guess we don't actually ever use the NR ranking? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Oh, yeah, we do. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Oh, yeah. We're going to use it. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Because it seems to me if we've got -- I mean, this looks to me like an occasion where it might be appropriate, and I'm still not hearing that I'm wrong. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: "Not required" should more realistically be saying cut out. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER NORRIS: term -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: COHMISSIONER NORRIS: there, they're history. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah. That would be a better Yeah. -- because if we put NR on Doesn't this look like this kind of circumstance? It looks like that to me when we have administrators administering administrators. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: This first budget hearing cycle is not necessarily to make that kind of decision. Hr. Ijams is going to come back in June and justify why this one that we just ranked D should not be cut, or he might come back and tell us, "Well, you know, I kind of agree with you. It should be cut." So, you know, we'll see in June. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: But it's not clear -- it's not clear enough to us today to make it an NR? We think they ought to be able to make a case for it in June? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Right. MR. FINN: Madam Chairman, does that mean that staff ranked item number three as discretionary? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: That's what that means. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I would say that's what that means. MR. FINN: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And then when we get our line item budget in June, this will show as a separate item to be pulled out of the budget total so that we can look at them. MR. FINN: I've heard some discussion. Essentially the board is going to look at all of the discretionary items and evaluate from those terms with additional information provided by staff. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And then we'll be looking at them again in June. Okay. Have we established a ranking for item two yet? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Yes. It was an E. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It was an E. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: E. Okay. Are we ready to move on? MR. FINN: We should be on page six which is the 800 megahertz administration budget. MR. IJAMS: Mr. Daly, the communications manager, is here. We have to some extent already discussed this one, I guess. MR. DALY: Good afternoon. John Daly, communications manager. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Good afternoon. MR. DALY: Basically we separated this out due to the responsibilities of the communications manager, and Mr. Ijams mentioned, you know, waiting a couple of years. We have a couple things that are happening here. Right now the system is under construction, and there's some specific functions that I -- need to take place as we construct the system, make sure that the contractors are in compliance with the contract. Once the system is installed and operational, there will be some monitoring of the system operation to make sure it is functioning the way we intended it to function, to make sure that the contractor lives up to the warranty which is a two-year period after final acceptance, and to make sure that the needs of the various users are being met the way the system is configured. And if there is some type of operational problem once the system is installed and working, that would be worked out during the warranty phase between the contractor and the users to make sure that everybody's needs are being met. In addition, there will be some expenses with the management of the system, including utility costs at each of the tower sites. And upon the completion of the tower, at least we'll have some indication as to what our cost for tower space is going to be ongoing through the life of the system. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I've got no questions about that one. We've already -- Somebody needs to be in charge of an $8 million new project. That's my thought on that one. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: My only question is, what is the anticipated role of this person after system installation and startup? Obviously I would assume your work duties are somewhat reduced, and yet we still have one FTE in that position. Is this -- I mean, is that prudent and expected? MR. IJAMS: I would agree. I've asked myself that question, and I think that's -- probably goes to the heart of my remarks. For the next two or three years we're certain we need this. I'm sure that we'll continue to need a manager of the 800 system. This is a county system that's going to require a great deal of coordination between the county and the county staff and the sheriff and his staff and the independent districts and so on. So are we going to need him forever? Very likely. But can I justify that at the moment? No. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: What does this $107,000 worth of funding consist of? MR. DALY: A major portion of that will be -- Based upon discussions with Erickson G (phonetic) and with other users, a major portion of that is going to be the cost of the electricity for each of the tower sites because the amount of equipment we have out there, it's fairly electricity intensive. We're getting an estimate of somewhere between 40 and 50,000 a year for electricity for the seven tower sites plus the control point here at the courthouse. And one of our recommendations there under the revenue impact was using that twelve fifty surcharge to perhaps offset some of these costs. The twelve fifty surcharges do not generate a large sum of money in which you could really do any capital with the system, but it may provide some of the operational costs, but we'll see, on an ongoing and annual basis. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: So this is basically one FTE and a lot of electricity for 107 -- MR. DALY: And potential tower leases. We have not finished negotiating tower leases, so I can't give you a figure on that. At this point they're going to be minimal, but some of the tower owners do look for more commercial-type rent to the tune of, you know, 1,000 1,500 a month tower space. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: figure. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: tower -- COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: That seems a shocking Was that -- Was that Boo. Hiss. Boo. Was that 1,000, 1,500 a month somewhere in the discussions on the megahertz system? I mean, when you guys were hearing this over and over and over, did you know you're getting into that kind of a monthly expenditure in addition to -- COMHISSIONER NORRIS: As Mr. Dotrill said, yeah, we knew over a year ago that we would -- or about a year ago, I guess, we would be discussing about having a manager. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We would be leasing tower space. MR. DORRILL: We're going to have a longer term. You're going to have maintenance contracts on the devices post their warranty period as well. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: By June, will we have any better numbers on this regarding either electricity or tower rentals? MR. IJAMS: I think so. MR. DALY: Tower rentals should be completed within 30 days. So we will have that figured. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: If we make this essential today, will we get another look at it when that number goes down, if it goes down, hoping it goes down? MR. IJAMS: It has the potential. I think E would be the correct ranking for you to go. MR. FINN: Yes. When the line item budgets are prepared, this is one that you will review. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: No matter how we rank it. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: E is fine then. MR. SMYKOWSKI: Yes. And it will also reflect up-to-date information in terms of what the actual lease dollars are as opposed to estimates. At that point they should be signed and sealed. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: I'm fine with E also. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay with E. MR. FINN: One other -- Madam Chairman, if I could, one other point of interest on the 800 megahertz, the existing administrative system that's currently running costs for maintenance and tower rental somewhere between 40 and $50,000 a year now. So 100 -- It's essentially going to be roughly in the same magnitude for the tower rental and the electricity. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: And then the additional is the manager, more or less, ballpark? MR. FINN: Pretty much, yeah. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. That makes some sense. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Are we renting towers on the existing channels now? MR. DALY: Yes. MR. FINN: I'm not certain. I believe we are. MR. DALY: We're leasing to Palmet Communications. That's about seven or 8,000 a year for that tower in Bonita. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. MR. FINN: And then we have a $40,000 contract to maintain the system. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. MR. FINN: I believe we're on page nine which is the medical examiner budget. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: This is a contract, isn't it? MR. FINN: Yes, ma'am. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: The personnel that this reflects are personnel that the medical examiner hires herself and -- MR. FINN: Yes, ma'am. That is correct. MR. DORRILL: That's correct. They're not on your payroll. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: They're not on our payroll. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: How often does the contract come up for renewal? I mean, how can we negotiate the deal? MR. GRIFFIN: Annually. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is this next year's deal or last year's deal? MR. GRIFFIN: This is based on the current fiscal year's budgeted dollars. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: And do we anticipate any increase request? MR. GRIFFIN: She has not indicated to me that she's looking for any significant increases next year, but we haven't prepared line item budgets yet either. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: It's also mandated. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It's also mandated. We don't have a lot of choice. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: That ends the discussion quick. MR. DORRILL: Give you a little heads up so, again, I can plant one of these seeds in the hopes that you'll remember it. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: You're becoming a regular farmer, Mr. Dotrill. MR. DORRILL: I know. The original plan here in conjunction with Naples Community Hospital was develop a joint use medical examiner facility. This is one of those areas where the county commission is ultimately responsible for the facility just like the jail. Because of Naples Community Hospital's sort of redirection and reorganization, they may not now be able to provide the facility under some lease arrangement to the county commission. We'll have better information this summer. The facility that is currently utilized is very, very old and very inadequate. It is part of a former funeral home that is owned by Naples Community Hospital but is scheduled to be demolished at some point I believe in the next 18 months. So we may end up having to talk about a medical examiner facility this summer as well. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Should we be anticipating some additional capital expenditures in light of this information? MR. DORRILL: Well, we're not sure yet. Mr. Ijams has had a preliminary meeting with the hospital, and we hope to have the final one before we develop the capital improvement budget, but that's a possibility, and I'm just mentioning it today because ultimately you are responsible to own and operate the HE facility. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Next item. MR. FINN: Page 11. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Forestry services. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: A little bit of history on this one. We went through this last year and were considering cutting this one, found out that that would not be in our best interest to cut this one. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER NORRIS: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: and move along. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: So I think we can -- Right. -- move along with -- I think we can rank it an E And I notice your reduction to 93 percent so even better. MR. IJAMS: I'm sorry. Did you say E? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: E. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Yes. MR. IJAMS: There is a reduction in acreage. That's -- We talked about that last year. If you'll note in the totals that there has been a decrease. That's -- This is re-evaluating over two years. MR. FINN: On page 13 and 14, the beginning of the Emergency Management budget. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Just one -- one thing I wanted to ask somebody who probably knows the answer is quickly is the -- there's -- the records there, that's the unincorporated general funds 111. What's the number for the -- MR. DORRILL: 001. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Countywide fund. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Countywide. MR. DORRILL: Just to prove to my budget staff that I still know my phone numbers. MR. FINN: Read minds also. MR. DORRILL: I'm married. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Pineau. MR. PINEAU: Good afternoon, Commissioners. Ken Pineau, Emergency Management director. We have three -- For the benefit of the new commissioners on the board, we have three full-time employees in our department. The base level remains essentially unchanged from last year, the Emergency Management program. The only new item is Florida Administrative Code 9G-20 requires us to review all nursing home facilities -- the plans of nursing home facilities, day surgeries, hospitals, things of that nature there. That's also included in our base level this year. We believe that we can do it with two full-time employees. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I just want to say, Mr. Pineau, I had the opportunity to take a look at our mobile command vehicle this weekend and also got a little lecture by Mr. Arnold on the dollars this county saved with that particular purchase and -- very impressive. I was impressed with his capability, and I think that was a job well done in the acquisition and putting together of that particular vehicle. MR. PINEAU: In this case, he who hes -- he who hesitates saves money. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Yes. Yes. MR. PINEAU: We did get a good deal. On page 17 the staff rank two, the emergency operations center. We also have an alternate EOC up at the Orangetree agricultural facility in the event this one becomes inoperative and also maintaining our mobile emergency command vehicle. We respond on the average about ten to 12 times a year with that. Any questions on staff level two? COMHISSIONER NORRIS: appropriate? COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COMHISSIONER NORRIS: mandated? Would an E, E, and E be I would see that. I think so. Yeah. M, E, and E. M? Is your base level MR. PINEAU: Yes, it is. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. So it's M, E, and E. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: So it's M, E, E. COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Thank you for your presentation. MR. PINEAU: Thank you, sir. MR. FINN: Starting on page 20 is the Isles of Capri municipal fire and rescue budget. MR. IJAMS: Let me just make a couple of comments while Mr. Middlebrook -- This is a volunteer department. Please keep that in mind. Chris is here this afternoon. He is a volunteer. I think it's important to make that distinction here because the -- as you will -- In discussion with Chris, you're going to see that they've got some ideas that we have -- that I've chosen to go along with and present as programs, but I would like for you to hear from him. Chris, I appreciate you being here. CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: Thank you. The present situation of the fire department that we have now for providing the service is being stressed due to the amount of calls that we have increased over the next -- over the past couple of years and we have not increased our amount of volunteers. And the problem is, is that it takes too much time for a person to become a trained EMT certified and a fire certified volunteer and still hold a full-time job and not take away too much time from their family. So we have a core volunteer of four people that are fully trained that reside in the Capri district of which all of us have full-time jobs, and it takes an awful lot of time away from your free time to handle the amount of calls that are given to us besides the training that we do on the side. So the position of this department and our advisory members is to promote a volunteer fire department supplemented with three paid positions which would allow us to give some relief to the members that are volunteering now and still provide the same level of service that we have been able to for the past 16 years. We have advertised for additional volunteers. We've had a few inquiries, but when they find out the schooling and the time required, they don't seem to come back for a second time. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I have a question on how -- how -- on your expanded service for the three-man department how we arrive at $272,000 for three people knowing this is a special taxing district even, and certainly the people covered by the district will pay the tax for it, but this seems to me like -- I don't know. MR. FINN: Madam Chairman, perhaps I should -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- A fairly large increase. MR. FINN: Perhaps I should clarify that. That actually looks like a typo. I believe that should be 125,000. That's actually the total moved up one line. I apologize for that. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER NORRIS: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: typos, Mr. Finn? That makes it -- That does help. -- a little bit better. Can you find more of those HR. FINN: We find those every day. That's why the budget is as low as it is. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Total cost there -- I'm sorry, Commissioner Matthews. Total cost there is $125,000 for line items two, three, and four? MR. FINN: No, sir. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: No. Just four. MR. FINN: Number four. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Just four. MR. FINN: Which is adding three full-time firefighting positions is $125,000. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's page 24. MR. SHYKOWSKI: On page 24 there is a break-out under the description of the program package, identifies $120,000 for three paid positions and additional equipment and training is 52. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: What is the current millage for Isles of Capri? CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: We have one half a mill that we're collecting to support the station and also the operations of the department. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: .5? CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: Yes, ma'am. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And this is going to take you to 1.787 CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: According to this, we are putting in for the -- supporting the 800 megahertz system, and our portion would apparently bring it up to 1.78. MR. IJAMS: It includes -- Miss Matthews, it includes all of the programs we would recommend that you -- or you would have to go to 1.78 for all the programs. CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: This is a large increase in our tax, but we have circulated this information to the people of Capri. We held a meeting in January at the local civic association, and we distributed 600 copies of our present situation, just what I'm explaining to you today, some options that are available to us which would be to turn this over to the county and let them provide the service to us with no volunteers or continue on with a volunteer department or go into a supplemental of three paid people. And the decision of the people of Capri at the January and the subsequent February meeting unanimously voted to pursue the three-man paid department. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Dorrill, do we have any information from the citizens on the Isles of Capri regarding this? MR. DORRILL: I had asked for that specifically. I had asked that the advisory board take a position on this which was my condition not to not recommend it and I'd asked that they -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I'd like to remind this board the North Naples fire district had a quarter mill referendum that failed. CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: Yes, ma'am. We have no alternative as far as the position of -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, they don't think they do either, but still it failed. CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: But if the department decreases in the amount of volunteers and cannot provide a service, I feel that the county would have to provide some kind of fire protection for our community, and I don't feel that they could provide that level of service as inexpensively as we can using the volunteers for staff. You just can't run a department on one '- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I understand. MR. DORRILL: We had discussed this, and that's why I asked that. They have surveyed the island as a part of an annual meeting of the Isles of Capri homeowner's association. There seems to be good support for this. Their advisory board is recommending this to the county commission. Their alternative because of what is increasingly a shortage of volunteers on the Isles of Capri is to be absorbed by either the Marco Island or more likely the East Naples independent fire district which is something they do not want to do which is my understanding. CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: Correct. MR. DORRILL: And in the event that they did, it would be a higher millage rate than what they've proposed for themselves. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Chief Chris, out of curiosity, why would you not want to be absorbed by some other fire district? CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: It is the feeling that we did bring up to the people of Capri at the civic association that they would rather be serviced by residents that have been volunteering and have the Capri community in mind that live there. They feel that it's worth the little bit of extra money to have that service provided by them as opposed to having an annexation into another department. At this time that is the feeling of the people to pay the difference. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: If that's what the people want, that's fine with me. I have no objection to it. MR. IJAMS: I had the opportunity to attend a couple of the meetings and certainly one that was at least 50 people there. I thought that was a good representation. And I was pleasantly surprised to see the support that Chris had. He has built this department from what it was today or yesterday and I -- frankly, I just can't see it any other way. I was surprised with the support that they have down there for this. So I would encourage us to -- MR. DORRILL: Their motion was unanimous, and there's a letter here. We'll make copies. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's from who? The civic association? MR. DORRILL: No. This is from the Isles of Capri fire and rescue district advisory board. There are five members there that monitor and oversee the fire department. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Hancock. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: As someone who spent eight years in the Coast Guard Reserve, we did a lot of our own training. And, of course, we were supposed to be there one weekend a month. We found ourselves there two and three weekends a month trying to get caught up and so forth. And we weren't on call seven days a week, so I understand the difference. Although a three-man paid department may on the surface appear like a good idea, have you considered the idea of a one- or two-member paid department that will focus on increasing training opportunities for the volunteers? In other words, rather than creating a department to fix the problem, initiate a position or two positions that addresses the training difficulties. Was that ever an approach or under consideration? CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: The training difficulties are by state certified requirements for the EMT or for the fire certification. Once that point is achieved, which takes approximately a year before we really have a viable candidate to go on line in our department, then it's a matter of being home and around and being young enough to handle the stress of a situation of a fire or such. So we don't have that kind of dedication from the younger people. It's something that when they work full time and if they have their free time, they're just not interested, and the few that are have been. I've been the volunteer chief for 16 years and the four people that have -- the core right now have been on from six to 12 years besides myself being on 16. So it takes a special person to dedicate that time. MR. IJAMS: Mr. Hancock, I think the answer to your question is that, yes, we have looked at that and certainly as an option. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I'm sure if we move ahead with this today, our phone messages will indicate whether or not there really is support. MR. FINN: Actually, Commissioner, this is going to require an ordinance change which means you'll have an advertised hearing, and at that point you would presumably hear from the public if they disagreed with the recommendation being made by Mr. Middlebrook. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Mac'Kie. MR. IJAMS: Let me simply add that in all the public meetings I've been to, we have never -- in fact, we have encouraged their participation to today, and apparently at this point Chris is the only one that's here, but we've encouraged that input from them for you folks. So I think we're on the right track. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I've got one more question that deals with a three-man paid department. How are you going to rotate these men? CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: That concept has not been finalized. We're leaning towards the 24-hour, one-day-on, two-day off concept, and that will not provide us a complete 24-hour protection, but that's where the volunteers come in. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So you're going to have one paid man driving a fire truck -- CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: To the scene. Yes, ma'am. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- To the scene. CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: Yes, ma'am. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And the volunteers are going to join him there or is he going to do this alone? CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: No, ma'am. He can't do it alone. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I know he can't do it alone. That's my question. CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: That's why I'm saying this is a volunteer fire department supplemented by a paid person. We will always have one person drive right to the scene from the station, and then volunteers will respond in an additional vehicle. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So the volunteers are going to carry their gear in their homes and their cars, or are they going to go to the station and respond from the station? I mean, if the problem is lack of a driver in the working hours, then why not hire one man for 40 hours a week instead of three men to cover the whole thing? CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: It takes more than just one man to do anything on a call for us. So we need to have the ability to have someone here at all times. In the summertime we get down to -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, yeah. I'm sorry with the weekend but I'm -- I'm -- If people are willing to pay for it, I can't really argue it. So I mean -- MR. IJAMS: We have looked at various possibilities, and I wouldn't for one moment want to tell you that this person would be on 24 and off 48 like the other fire districts work. We're looking at -- There's other options. We could have three on a day, and they could work 40 hours. There's a lot to be accomplished that way. There's various, various options to us, and we just haven't gone beyond where we are today to see if -- you know, if you like this or not but -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Does that mean -- MR. IJAMS: -- There's plenty of ways for firemen to work other than 24 on and 48 off. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I'm probably aware of most of them -- MR. IJAMS: Yes. I believe you are. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- Having lived 20 years with it. But three men on a 24 on and 48 off, what are you going to do about sick leave, vacation, and -- CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: Covered by the volunteers. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Covered by the volunteers. CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: We're doing it now 100 percent, so we feel the relief would be felt by people who are doing it now, that it's nice to be able to go out to dinner and not have to check with the other two people to see if they're going to be on island to take a call initially. So it's -- especially in the summertime. Six months a year we're down to four, and that's -- that handles everything. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I don't have any problem moving forward with this. I'm just interested in when the ordinance comes forward for the change, what the citizens have to say. CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: The Isles of Capri Civic Association fully took a vote and unanimously endorsed our position and will offer any kind of a written letter if you like. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I just think that they're going down the path thinking three men are going to solve the problem. Three men are not going to solve the problem. Next year you're going to be looking for three more, and they're going to be looking at another half a mill, three-quarter of a mill, and they're going to say, "Oh, geez, how did we get into this?" CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: No, ma'am. We did not portray that to them at all. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. I'm just -- I just know the way fire departments function. That's all. MR. IJAMS: Those are excellent points. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Madam Chairman, I kind of see the ranking as base level would be essential, station debt would be essential, 800 megahertz essential, and the final two discretionary. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I can agree with that. MR. FINN: I'm going to have to tell you that the station debt is mandatory. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Mandatory? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah. That -- That's a bond issue, isn't it? MR. FINN: Yes. And, actually, the base level by our normal definition is also mandatory also. At a minimum we need to provide 30 and $40,000 a year to provide operating costs for the volunteers. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: megahertz as essential? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. Any problem with 800 No. That's fine. No. Okay. Final two discretionary. (Nodded head.) I don't have any problem with it. Okay. So we have mandatory, mandatory, essential, discretionary, discretionary. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: That's what I have. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Chief Chris, when you say the Isles of Capri Civic Association unanimously endorsed your idea, did you mean a general membership endorsement -- CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: Yes. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: -- Or the board? CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: Well, actually, the president of the civic association took their board poll and also a raising of hands at a meeting in February and -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: CHIEF HIDDLEBROOK: COHMISSIONER NORRIS: unusual. CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: COHMISSIONER NORRIS: And they got no naysayers? Not one. I'll be darn. That's That was about 50 people. Okay. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Thanks. There's no reflection on you. We just -- Obviously the idea of adding taxes anywhere to anyone is not a comfortable idea for people sitting up here. CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: I understand that. MR. IJAMS: We anticipate a thorough discussion on this item. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Oh, yes. Guaranteed. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I would imagine when the ordinance comes you'll be back. MR. FINN: Is it the board's direction then that staff should prepare for the change in the ordinance and bring it before the board? That is the next step that needs to take place. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yes. It sounds to me like it is. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We can't impose this without the ordinance change, can we? COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Right. MR. FINN: That is correct. MR. DORRILL: You need to make that decision prior to September. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Prior to September, we need to have a hearing on the ordinance so we can find out for sure if what these gentlemen are telling us is that they want this thing. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And I would suggest that we do it before half the population goes North. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Good thought. MR. FINN: Yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So I would say that we need to do it fairly quickly. Okay. CHIEF MIDDLEBROOK: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you. MR. FINN: On page 25 -- Beginning on page 25 is the budget for the Ochopee Fire Department. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Don't look so apprehensive. It's not that bad. MR. IJAMS: I think he got here for a one o'clock meeting. CHIEF DOERR: Chief Vince Doerr for Ochopee Fire Control. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Chief, do you want to lead us through this? CHIEF DOERR: Yes, ma'am. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you. CHIEF DOERR: All right. What we have on staff ~ank one, base level service, as you can see, we still have 11 personnel and 100 percent total and around $800,000. On the staff level -- and that's still holding the same and they can live with that. Staff ranking two, the 800 megahertz is -- our portion is going to be about $38,700. That's after our trade-in and everything. And sitting here I've talked to Norris about it, and we'll probably spread ours over a period of a few years. I don't know if -- we're going to try to -- we'll do it in one year or not. We might -- you know, at budget time try to spread it over a period of years, four or five years, to try to work with the 800 megahertz system and come in line with it, and that will give us, say, five or six mobile radios and give pottables to the men only and myself. We have pottables at this time for all volunteers. We've got 27 pottables. We're going to drop back the pagers because we just can't afford to go the 800 megahertz pottables. So that will give us two bases and we'll be back on line about the same with the changeover. On staff rank three, our main proposal for this year is the additional supervisory position, exempt position. We're trying for one, and roughly it would be about 49,800. This position as outlined in the duties will roughly help you. Now, the workload is conduct fire inspections, coordinate fire prevention activities, coordinate firefighter training, and complete employee performances over the three lieutenants. This is our goal. We've been holding at the level of manpower we had for many years. We've had somebody leave and replace them. We haven't hired anybody. We've been three per shift so that's nine. There's a lieutenant on shift and a fireman at each station Ochopee Everglades. So with the nine people aboard and myself and one secretary, we've been holding pretty well for many years. This is the first time we've tried to -- for another additional person at any level, firefighter, lieutenant, supervisor, whatever. Does anybody have any questions so far? Yes, sir? COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Chief, I was just looking at the duties and descriptions. What does that do to your workload and how does that change? CHIEF DOERR: Say it again. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: If this full-time equivalent person is hired, what then becomes your role and responsibility and how does it change? CHIEF DOERR: All right. Well, this person here would assist in coordinating the three lieutenants a little better I think on training and stuff. As far as helping me, one main thing it would help is also when I'm in town at meetings or if I'm on vacation -- sometimes we have to hold -- one of the lieutenants has to be in the area when I'm gone. We have to bring him from shift onto days. This person would take care of that. It would be a 40-hour -- we'll say roughly 8:00 to 5:00 and this person will be -- We're not trying for assistant fire chief. That's just too costly. This person would probably be the next in line under me, or if I was sick -- Thank God I haven't been. But if anything comes up or if I'm away on training -- that happens. Once in a while I go to that hurricane conference, fire chief conference or something, we would have then one person in line to monitor the trucks and repair the trucks, make sure everything is carried through, all the training and everything, you know, as we grow more. Running the two stations and the equipment and everything and trying to keep the maintenance and everything on the trucks through fleet. We have also a contract with East Naples that does our pump test and pump repair. So it gets to be a lot, you know, on me, but he would assist in a lot of ways. I mean, it's -- COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is this something too that -- I see a millage increase -- it would require an ordinance change and so -- but, I mean, would the people who are going to be taxed have a say in it? MR. FINN: No, ma'am. This should be within the existing cap. This independent -- dependent fire district has a higher millage cap. It's I believe three. CHIEF DOERR: No. Our millage cap is four, if I'm not -- that was set by Neil, and that was back when we tried years ago. It's set at four now, the cap is. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: This is one of those areas where I'm confident I don't have the expertise to make any kind of judgment calls but -- you know, because I don't know anything about fighting fires or what you need and that kind of stuff. You know more, a whole lot, tons more than I'll ever know. It's troubling, however, to see, you know, another level of an administrative kind of person and I don't -- with all due deference and respect to your knowledge for what's necessary, I don't think you're just out there trying to make up jobs, but it's scary-looking to me to be adding another position here that's in a supervisory administrative kind of a role. What's so bad about moving people around on shifts when you're at a conference and that kind of stuff? CHIEF DOERR: Well, it messes up the training, ma'am. Another thing is too, this person would come in handy. I don't know if it's right in here, and that is also when we have somebody sick, we're only down to two men per day, and let me tell you, we're riding pretty lucky right now because we're so green and wet a little bit. I don't know how long you've been in the area, but when we have bad brush fires, it's very hard on us and trying to pull men off duty and then a few volunteers to handle the brush fires and everything, to pull our weight with the work and help of East Naples, Golden Gate, you know, out in the South Blocks or whatever. So this would assist that way very well because it's nice to hold, not counting myself, three men per shift, a man at each station. So if you have a bad wreck on the Alley, maybe the lieutenant and one fireman can go to the Alley. You've got two going right now. If you have one off sick or vacation or Kelly days which takes up half of our year, roughly speaking we have only two men on or three men on half the year due to those factors. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is this something that the circumstances have changed so that -- Is it just that we've been lucky so far and now we better stop trying to gamble, or is it that the calls have increased or the population's increased? MR. IJAMS: Let me interject if I could. I think the circumstances have changed in this degree, that as the Emergency Services administrator, I'm bringing some different ideas to the Everglades City/Ochopee area, particularly when I look at fire prevention activities, I'm not sure -- and please don't take me wrong, that I'm not being critical of what they've done in the past, but they can provide a better service to the public down there than what they've been able to do in the past because of lack of manpower and lack of training and lack of motivation. I would think that this person would allow us at least to be -- to try to bring this department up to a level of service where some of the others are in this county and -- after all, it's the people of Everglades City. That's where our focus of the number of people -- the people are right around in that area, and we need to provide the best service for them. Part of that service goes beyond just fighting fire. It's fire prevention, it's training, and all of those things. So you asked a question I thought was very good. It's -- Part of what the change is coming is me and I -- COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And you're requiring higher -- MR. IJAMS: I'm blunt and to the point, but that's to the point as far as the Everglades. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And I appreciate blunt and to the point, and I guess what you're saying is that you want a higher standard of service out there, and this is your recommendation on how to get there? MR. IJAMS: Yes, ma'am. MR. DORRILL: But from what Commissioner Matthews would refer to as a tactical standpoint to have one additional person spread over two stations during daytime hours. This would be an administrative-daytime-type position and also to include the enhancement of fire prevention, inspection of structures that are already built, already CO'd which is something that they have never had the level of sophistication to do. This was also an indication -- Since there is a fire advisory board that oversees the operations of the department, I asked them to hold a special meeting for the purpose of taking and polling their advisory board on this issue. They've done that. There were four of the five members present, and it was unanimous recommendation of the fire advisory board recommend this to the commission for approval. CHIEF DOERR: Neil, I wanted to add something to that. No doubt it would have been -- five of the members would have been for it. One was away for training. No opposition. I just want to mention that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Norris. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Let me suggest that we make base level mandatory since it is our ordinance and that 800 megahertz we rank for today as discretionary because Chief Vince has said that he may want to decide to take that over a period of years so we'll -- he'll let us know by June. Can you do it by the June hearings, let us know what you're going to do on that? CHIEF DOERR: On what now? On -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: On the 800, whether you want to do it all in one year or whether you're -- MR. DORRILL: Whether you're financing or paying cash. We can do that. MR. IJAMS: That will be in the line item budget. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. Well, let's rank it discretionary for that reason then since we want to make sure we take another look at it and discretionary also with an additional position, and they can justify that if they'd like. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And if the 800 megahertz were to be paid over a number of years, the millage increase would not have to be .35 mills. It would be something less than that. MR. FINN: Do we have consensus on that? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER NORRIS: COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Doeft. I think so. H, D, D? H, D, D? H, D, D. H, D, and D. Thank you, HR. FINN: On page 30 is the budget for the Collier County fire control district. This is a taxing district through which the county levies two mills of ad valorem taxation and has four or five surrounding fire districts under contract to provide coverage for that area. MR. DORRILL: There are very few people that live in this district. This is the only area of the county, though, that is not covered by a district that has its own department; consequently, we levy a tax, and then we contract with whomever is the closest department to the area in question to provide the service. There are no men. There's no department here. This is just a district that collects money and then distributes it to contract providers. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: It's mandated because we have an ordinance; is that correct? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah. MR. DORRILL: Yes, sir. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It's mandated. I have a question on the two-mill cap. Are there any fire districts with the changes that we've just discussed for Ochopee and Isles of Capri that are more than two mills? COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah. MR. FINN: The Ochopee fire district may well be more than two mills when all is said and done. It has in the past been as high as 3.1, 3.2 mills. MR. SHYKOWSKI: The adopted millage for Ochopee this year was 2.6572. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: For the current year? MR. SHYKOWSKI: Correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And we're talking about another increase. MR. SHYKOWSKI: Probably be over three mills. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And Ochopee serves a significant part of this district? MR. GRIFFIN: Yes, they do. They're one of the contractual providers. MR. DORRILL: Paid separately. MR. FINN: There are three main contractual providers that earn between 80 and 90,000 a year. Ochopee is one of the main ones. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: One of the main ones? MR. FINN: Yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: The ordinance that establishes the unincorporated area of fire dis -- fire district, district one, is that set at a two-mill cap or is that statutorily set by Tallahassee? MR. DORRILL: It's not statutorily -- We set that under ordinance of two mills. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I'm just questioning if Ochopee who is a significant server of this is going to be going to 2.2, 2.3, whatever it is, I'm not sure that these -- that the people who live within the Ochopee fire district should be subsidizing the unincorporated or the fire district that's not part of the other districts. MR. FINN: I'm not sure that's exactly how it works. The number of responses there, while they're significant, I'm not sure that any fire district is going to tell you they're losing money providing coverage to that area. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: In addition, if you live in the unincorporated area and you want your own fire district, you can get together with your neighbors and petition the board to develop a new district, and you can become a new Ochopee or a new whatever. So what they're saying is, we're happy being served by existing -- whatever it is. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: No. I'm talking about people who already live in the Ochopee fire district paying 2.4-- COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: But they aren't paying both; right? They're paying the 2.4 for Ochopee. They're not also additionally paying a 2.0; right? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEW: Let's move on. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: go to the chopper? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER NORRIS: chopper discussion? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: three o'clock. Thank you. Okay. No. No. Mandatory. How about a break before we Pardon? I'm sorry? A break before we go to the Yeah. Why not. It's Why don't we take a ten-minute break and get back at quarter after. (A short break was held.) CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Reconvene the budget hearing for fiscal year '95/'96. Next on the agenda is the helicopter operations. MR. BOLTON: My name is Peter Bolton with helicopter operations. The budget is essentially the same as last year. There's myself and three other pilots, four FTE's all together. Base level is again the same as last year. It's anything of an emergency nature, 24 hours a day, seven days a week anywhere within Collier County. Also providing emergency services to neighboring counties that we have mutual aid agreements with. Also emergency inter-facility patient transfers from Naples Hospital to -- and North Collier Hospital to other hospitals throughout Central and South Florida. And the flight training hours and the aircraft maintenance support that we need in order to maintain those flights hours. That is essentially base level. The first program on page 36 is the inter-facility patient transfers. These are more of a routine nature, taking patients from Naples Hospital to other hospitals throughout Florida. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Let me ask you something on that, Mr. Bolton. Are any of these trips non-emergency type? MR. BOLTON: These are all non-emergency. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Why are we doing that then is my question. Why are we in the helicopter charter business essentially? MR. BOLTON: If we did not do it, the ground EHS units would have to do it and I -- I'd have to defer this to the EHS director. But, as I understand, in order to, for instance, take a patient from Naples to Tampa, a ground unit would be out of service for up to six or seven hours whereas we can do that transfer up to Tampa and back again within two and a half hours. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: What do we charge for that, Mr. Ijams? MR. IJAMS: Two fifty. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: 250 bucks? MR. FINN: Yes, sir. We -- We have -- The board established a policy where they charge the same amount for a ground transport or an air transport. The air transport to a great extent is utilized to maintain the response times in the entire EHS operation. So it's critical to the entire operation. If we were to create a higher charge for the helicopter transports, the patient would be less likely or disinclined to use it whereas it to a great extent benefits the overall operation. MR. IJAMS: I think we probably ought to spend a few moments on defining "emergency" for you in this regard. To call it non-emergency isn't -- doesn't give you the complete picture. On inter-facility transports, the state law requires that there be two emergency personnel along with a pilot and the patient. This requires intravenous, all kinds of heart monitoring procedures have to go on while they're flying, and it probably is something between a true emergency and a non-emergency, but it puts specific requirements on -- it puts a lot of workload on the helicopter, I would agree, but I wouldn't want you to think it's -- I wouldn't want you to consider this as a non-emergency. All non-emergencies -- My understanding is now that there are some private purveyors who take care of all the patients in Collier County who do not require advanced life support service that we provide. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: That was going to be my point is, wouldn't we be cheaper to rent them a limo and haul them up there in a limo than to run them up there in a chopper. That's got to be awful expensive. What's our hourly flight? MR. BOLTON: The direct operating cost is about three fifty an hour. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Three fifty an hour, and you're looking at an hour and a half flight up, an hour and a half flight back. MR. BOLTON: 1.6. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: You know, you guys are talking a thousand bucks and you're only collecting 250 for it. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Does that include staff too? MR. BOLTON: No. That just includes the direct operating cost, the fuel maintenance, oil and reserve. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: If I may ask, by way of comparison, to take an EMS unit out and back for a total of seven hours or more, what are the costs associated with that, and how do these two costs compare? I understand the operational difficulty of taking a unit out of the zone and having to cover additional zone areas for seven hours and that creates an operational difficulty. I had the joy of riding with one of your EMS units for four hours about two weeks ago, and I'll be doing a 24-hour with them hopefully next month but -- I understand the operational difficulty, but looking at cost here, is there a cost advantage to using the flight? Is there a cost disadvantage, or are we going to have to be running that air time anyway for maintenance purposes? I'm just looking for the balances there. MR. BOLTON: The crews are in place. Everything is set up. The insurance is paid. Everything is there ready. All the -- the direct cost to us is the fuel, the maintenance, and the oil. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: So the three fifty an hour, in this case we're talking, say, 1,000 bucks plus or minus to go up and back? MR. BOLTON: Probably about $750. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: $750. Is it as costly or more costly to send an EMS unit out and cover it than it is to fly it? MR. FINN: Diane, can you respond to that? MS. FLAGG: He -- MR. FINN: At the microphone, please. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yes. Put it on the record. MS. FLAGG: I need to clarify too that the helicopter doesn't on a regular basis go to Tampa. Peter, how many times did it go to Tampa? MR. BOLTON: Well, Tampa/Saint Pete -- Saint Pete/Hiami is about seven, eight times a month. MS. FLAGG: So the vast majority of the transports are to the Fort Myers Southwest Regional area. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: And those are done by EHS unit. MS. FLAGG: Either ground unit and/or an air unit. If we did not use the helicopter, we would have to for each transport -- now, these are transports in the physician's mind -- what Mr. Ijams was trying to clarify was it's a non-emergency to us, meaning it's not a pre-hospital emergency, but in the physician's mind it's an emergency. In other words, he has a patient that's crashing that he needs to get to a specialty center like All Children's in Tampa where he has a child that they can't deal with locally and they need get them there. To us, we consider that a non-emergency because they're already in a hospital versus the pre-hospital where they come in by 911 and there are no medical personnel there. So this is a patient who has IVs, who's on heart monitors, who's being administered oxygen, who's receiving pulsimetry and the whole nine yards. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: ALS all the way. MS. FLAGG: ALS. And we're taking him by helicopter. Our alternative would be to bring in paramedics on overtime and to bring up one of the reserve units which, as you can understand, would take quite a bit of time to bring them in to take a seven- or eight-hour trip because the other only option would be to take a primary ground unit like North Naples or Golden Gate or wherever out of service and commit him eight hours to that transport. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Idea of approximate cost to doing a seven- or eight-hour transport? MS. FLAGG: The costs probably are very similar to the helicopter costs by the time you bring up the unit. Probably a little bit less. But one of the things that we've explored is maybe looking at -- for those out-of-county flights, if you will, we certainly are -- we've contacted Tampa General. We've contacted All Children's, and we've said we really don't want to take these flights, and they are just now working with us to see if we can get their helicopter to come down and pick these patients up and take them first before they call us. So that's an area that we're working on right now with Aeromed out of Tampa General. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And Aeromed would charge the patient for doing that? MS. FLAGG: Yes. There would be no cost impact to us. What we're trying to do now is work agreements with these hospitals saying, you know, if this patient is critical, we're not going to let this child or this adult die -- us haggling over who's going to take the patient, but what we're trying to do is set up alternative arrangements at the hospitals. The physicians here work with us to let us work out these agreements that the hospitals will come and get these patients rather than us taking these patients to them, and Aeromed has agreed that certainly for the Tampa General flights they'll come and get them. If we're taking patients to Tampa General -- If they call us -- If you get the call, call us. We'll come down and pick them up and take them back. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Is Aeromed a private -- MS. FLAGG: It's an ALS run by Tampa General. MR. DORRILL: It's owned and operated but it's -- That's a good example. I think Tampa General is the burn center. Tampa General has a very good burn MS. FLAGG: center, yes. MR. DORRILL: victims to Tampa. MR. BOLTON: MR. DORRILL: So we're primarily taking burn We take a lot of trauma victims to Jackson '- To Jackson in Miami. -- in Miami. All Children's is in Saint Pete and Shands Teaching Hospital for children which is also -- in that case in Gainesville. MS. FLAGG: Right. And we're also trying to gear the physicians away from sending them to these long distance facilities, and we're working with these other providers, certainly the providers like Saint Joe's which is also in the Tampa/Saint Pete area, to get them to come down and pick up these patients and take them back rather than us committing to taking them. Diane Flagg. MR. IJAMS: Mr. Hancock, it really isn't -- Since Mr. Loveday and Mr. Hardt are here, it really isn't true that we dropped you off in the middle of the intersection of Immokalee Road and 41, is it? Please tell me we didn't do that. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Only at my request. MR. IJAMS: That's a little in-house story. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: It will remain in-house, Norris. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Bolton, you want to continue. MR. BOLTON: On page 37 is administrative flights for county agencies. These are about 48 flights I anticipate that we'll be doing this year for various agencies within the county ranging from the sheriff's office through the compliance services and the independent fire departments. They request us, and we go out and assist whenever we can. There are about 48 flights. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: These are what? Assisting -- MR. BOLTON: Assisting on fire control, fire surveys, photography for the sheriff's office. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Photography. Police work at all? MR. IJAMS: Other county departments. MR. BOLTON: Some -- a lot -- not a lot -- some search and rescue missions. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. MR. BOLTON: And on the final page, on page 38 is a helicopter reserve for engine overhaul. Two years ago we established an overhaul account of $35,000, and this is to pay for the engine overhaul that we'll be doing in FY '97/'98. And if this is approved, this will be the third year. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Any questions? Is our base level on this mandatory, Mr. Dotrill? MR. DORRILL: Sorry? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Is our base level on this mandatory? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: No. MR. DORRILL: Probably not in the sense that it's not a requirement, aside from the fact that you do own and we purchased this helicopter under agreement with the State of Florida, and whether that obligates us to have one or not, I'm not sure. Miss Flagg is indicating no. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Nothing -- There's nothing that would prevent us from selling this -- MR. DORRILL: No. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: -- so it's not mandatory. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. Could I suggest a ranking of what is probably essential, discretionary, discretionary, discretion -- well, the last one I think is also essential, four. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's what I had. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: If you're going to have a chopper -- if you're going to operate it, you might as well -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: If you're going to operate it, you might as well create a sinking fund for it. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: So we have E, D, D, E there? COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's what I have. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's what I'd like. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Good enough for me. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Close enough. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Bolton. MR. FINN: Starting on page 39 is the EMS budget. MS. FLAGG: Good afternoon, Commissioners. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Miss, Flagg, we're going to ask you a question that we were asking this morning but have not been asking this afternoon because we forgot is, how many vacancies are there in your working chart here? MS. FLAGG: On the chart what you'll see is the billing coordinator and the resulting positions under that. Those are going to be a line item in our budget due to the implementation of a revenue department. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: They're moving to the revenue department? MS. FLAGG: Yes. So you could just -- That is a section that will be for us line item -- in our line item budget and will be reflected in the revenue department's positions. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Other than that, all other positions are currently filled? MS. FLAGG: Yes. MR. IJAMS: I took the liberty of developing a letter for you on the billing department, G as gone from this department, this division. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: It's already passed NR. It's G. MR. FINN: Actually, MAdam Chairman, on page 40, as part of the EMS discussion, we have put the Immokalee medical assistance immediately prior to the EMS discussion because they are closely related. MS. FLAGG: On the Immokalee medical assistance program, we have two aspects of that program. The one is the funding for the assisting and the funding of the medical urgent care facility in Immokalee. And the second is the ability of the physician that if they need assistance in Naples, that EMS manages a shuttle service or rather than taking an ALS unit out of service and taking the patient to Naples, we run a van, and we use the driver, and the driver puts them in the van and takes them to Naples. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Takes who? The patients? MS. FLAGG: The patient. Right. The patient's initially seen by the physician at the urgent care center in Immokalee. And let's say that the patient -- the physician does an X-ray and they're not sure if it's a fracture but it's not of an emergency nature where they need a medic to splint and transport, then they call the shuttle van, and the shuttle comes out and picks up the patient and takes them to -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And that's an on-demand service? MS. FLAGG: It's -- Right now we run it two times a day. We'll run a shuttle in the morning and a shuttle in the afternoon, and we call all the facilities, both the Immokalee Urgent Care and then North Collier and NCH. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Why can't you call community transportation and get them on a medical transport for the disadvantaged program? MS. FLAGG: What they're doing right now in Immokalee is we are using the community transportation service in the City of Immokalee where the patients -- because most of our community members in the Immokalee area lack transportation. So one of the big challenges is to get them to the urgent care center, and community transportation is providing that service. They have a bus service, and they go to the bus stop, and then community transportation comes and picks them up and then takes them to the urgent care facility. Once the patient is at the urgent care facility, if they need further care -- if the physician says, you know, "I can't take care of this patient here. I'm not real sure what I'm dealing with here. I need additional tests," presently they call the shuttle service -- call the shuttle bus and say we, have a patient for you to pick up and take to North Collier, to NCH. An alternative that certainly we have explored with the urgent care center is to expand that community transportation service and/or a taxi service. We have utilized a taxi service prior to the development of the shuttle program in getting the patients from Immokalee to Naples without taking an ALS paramedic unit out of service to do that. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: And why aren't we using community transportation for this overall? MS. FLAGG: Right now -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I don't know. MS. FLAGG: Right now they haven't -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I don't know. Go ahead. MS. FLAGG: It's a decision. It's not -- I mean, we can ask but -- COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Isn't that what they do? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's what they do. That's what they do is take people -- MR. DORRILL: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. This ain't our program. This is one that the board asked us to develop and we specifically have an EMT driving the van because these are people who are going to Naples on some type of medical -- I won't say emergency but medical problem referral from a doctor to either North Collier or downtown to Naples Community Hospital. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: But doesn't community transportation also transport people to hospitals, to dialysis centers, to wherever for medical purposes? MR. DORRILL: They do. Whether they do with some sense of urgency, I mean, you know, people who are otherwise injured or they're being referred by a doctor from the emergency room facility in Immokalee I don't know. And if that service is available to them and it's scheduled -- I always thought their service was -- like you have to call and make an appointment for the following day to leave at a prescribed time. This shuttle leaves every day at the same -- MS. FLAGG: This would -- They would have to add this service to their current program. They're currently not providing this service. So this is -- This would be a new program to them. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It just -- It just seems to me that if we -- if we're providing this service twice a day, that we ought to be able to work with community transportation to provide the service every day twice a day. And if they're supposed to pick people up at noontime and at 11 o'clock you don't have anybody, you just call them and cancel. I mean, I'm not sure I understand why we're spending this money. MR. FINN: Actually, Madam Chairman, the county manager has not recommended the program for funding so I'm not sure -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: But we're doing it now. MR. FINN: And I presume the manager's not recommending it for next year because he's come to the same realization. MR. DORRILL: Utilization has been poor. We're spending -- what is it -- $17,500 to have an EHT on call with the county van to shuttle people who are sick from the Immokalee clinic to Naples Community or the North Collier facility, but this was one of those things that, you know, was created four or five years ago, sort of took on a life of its own, and we're still in the shuttle business. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Have we actually found something that might be an NR right now? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Just a moment. We might have. Commissioner Hancock. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: That works out to $100 a trip based on fiscal year '94. That's a big chunk of change. What I think this one should come back as -- if it should come back -- is, one, we need to look at community transportation and find out if they are, in fact, a viable option to this. If not, I heard we used taxis before. MS. FLAGG: Prior to this program, we utilized a taxi. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I bet a taxi would get out there and back for less than 100 bucks. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Not a whole lot less but -- it's a long way. MR. IJAMS: Stop at the casino. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Good point. My -- I guess my feeling is that community transportation is running shuttles between Immokalee and North Collier and Naples Community Hospital several times a day now just in meeting general population needs. MS. FLAGG: We would love to give up this program. I just need to clarify that for -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: sold on it but I think -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: COHMISSIONER NORRIS: COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I think -- I think we're I think you just did. I think you just did. Yeah. I think we want you to contact community transportation and get them to pick up the slack on it. MS. FLAGG: All I can offer is that I, again, will pursue that -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Because they '- MS. FLAGG: -- And encourage them to provide -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: They turn around and bill Hedicaid or Hedicare '- MS. FLAGG: Right. Correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- or what have you -- MS. FLAGG: Right. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: -- for whoever they transported. MS. FLAGG: Right. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Might I suggest that this remain discretionary until we get that information back from Miss Flagg but that I think we see a desire to make this a not recommended if we can find any alternative that is cheaper. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I'm ready to go forward with not recommended. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Me too. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I think I'd like to see -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Simply because we've talked about this one two years running now. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It would have been discretionary. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: So, in other words, rank it not recommended and find another way to do it. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, direct Miss Flagg to work with community transportation and let community transportation do the work and bill the appropriate government agency for the cost of running the program. I mean, they're carrying Hedicare and Hedicaid patients for the most part and -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: How do we rank number two? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I see number two until the hospital is completed as essential. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: never mind. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: nothing there. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: then. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I agree. He too. We have an E and an NR. Yeah. I do. What's the basis? Oh, There's no money. There's Got you. Let's do this We can make that one mandatory. Thank you, Hiss Flagg. HS. FLAGG: I'm going to stay with you here to go through the next part. As you can see if you had the opportunity to review some of the graphs, I wish I could bring you good news and tell you that people go home from Collier County after March, but unfortunately that's not happening anymore. They're staying. And, as a result, the more people that are here, the more calls the EHS department continues to run. From '93 to '94, we had a 29 percent increase in 911 calls. In just January and February of '95, we've had an additional 12 percent increase over '94, and unfortunately we don't see this slowing down. So just a little bit of background in the graphs. And then also the notation about current millage rate for EHS services countywide for both the City of Naples and to provide paramedic services to both the City of Naples and all of Collier County is 0.20 mills. And then under the -- On page 43, the base level, the senior paramedic program, those are mandatory programs from the perspective of providing 911 services. The senior paramedic program provides the mandatory training for the paramedics, and we use existing people to do that. We don't hire people to do that. Capital recovery program is the program that allows us to replace the units when they reach over 100, 150,000 miles or their cost benefit, if their repair costs exceed the cost of replacement or refurbishment. The inter-facility unit is the unit that this year experienced, again, an increase in the number of patients where patients require bypass surgery, open-heart surgery, and that service is not presently available in Collier County. We have to take those patients to Lee County for that operation. So these patients still require paramedic -- They're on IV lines and various infusions and EKG monitors and the whole nine yards, but they're going up for their open-heart surgery in one of the two facilities. In October of 1996, NCH is projecting to open their open-heart surgery. So we are hoping to see a significant decrease in the number of calls, and then we can review that program at that time. And then the special event, EMS coverage is for the -- the 9,300 reflected there is for those events that -- the Collier County Fair, the Seafood Festival, the PGA, the LPGA. That's what that cost is to provide a dedicated unit based upon the ordinance where those fees were waived. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Hancock, do you have a question? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: On number four, the EHS inter-facility paramedic unit, you have four personnel assigned to that. In essence, doesn't that work that you actually pull a paramedic team from your existing staff? In other words, when that happens, you drop your coverage in one area and cover it from other areas? MS. FLAGG: No. We bring up an additional unit. The medics -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: You do use an additional unit? MS. FLAGG: Right. The medics are real flexible. We put them on this unit and they work this unit for 12 hours and they go back and they work this unit for the balance, and we use part-time staffing to kind of offset but it's primarily -- it's the four people that -- we use paramedics, and we don't assign them all the time to that unit because their skill level will drop if all they're doing is maintaining so we -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Basically cardiacs. MS. FLAGG: -- we move them constantly. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Any other questions? Want to continue? MS. FLAGG: Okay. Under the -- We have provided a map. If I could -- Norris, could I use your mike? MR. IJAMS: No. MS. FLAGG: This is just to give you an idea of what we're dealing with when we're dealing with Collier County. And Collier County is over 2,000 square miles, and, as you can see, we're projecting just based on our history -- for just January and February, we're increase -- our call volume has increased an additional 12 percent. So we're looking at almost 40 percent increase just over the last two years. The little pink dots here are where our current stations are located. And then the orange dots are the two programs that are before you next which is a paramedic unit for the Isles of Capri and 951 service area and then a paramedic unit for the Corkscrew service area. The EHS department is responsible for covering this entire map with paramedic services seven days a week, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Questions? MS. FLAGG: If I could take you to program number seven, the Corkscrew service area, the proposal is based upon the increasing growth in the Golden Gate Estates and Corkscrew area, and because of the response time -- Our median response time 90 percent of the time is about 20 minutes, and we have a growing area -- population out there, and as a result we are proposing that we go ahead and put a paramedic unit in that area to answer those service needs. The closest unit in the Golden Gate Estates/Corkscrew area -- the closest unit to the community residing out there comes from North Naples or comes from Immokalee. Those are the two units that handle that entire service area presently. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: That cost of 272,000, do you anticipate, I mean, a physical structure or you're just stationing a unit in that area? MS. FLAGG: The balance -- The 272 is primarily for personnel. The capital cost and the facility cost will come out of EHS impact fees based upon it being a growth unit. the vehicle -- the ambulance, the medical equipment, and the station facility we would use EHS impact fees for. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Are those impact fees currently available? MS. FLAGG: Yes, sir. MR. FINN: And, Commissioners, that would be an additional $350,000. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's for the station, for the unit and -- MR. FINN: Yes. MS. FLAGG: And for the medical equipment. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And to bring it all on line? MS. FLAGG: Right. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: 350, huh? MS. FLAGG: The area that we're looking is where the ag center presently is located, in that general area, because it has good access to the Estates area and also in that general Corkscrew area. So that's the area that we're looking at for that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Are you going to have to add onto the ag center or is there '- MS. FLAGG: There's quite a bit of property out there. We're working with Real Property right now for them to help us pinpoint the best location for that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. MS. FLAGG: So it's -- MR. IJAMS: I also think that -- correct me if I'm wrong, Diane. I think the sheriff has had some considerations of building out there too. Whether this could be a joint venture or not would remain to be seen, but I think that possibility exists. MS. FLAGG: We would -- They've indicated that they would very much like to be a part of this facility. It may not be this budget year, but if we could build a facility keeping them in mind because our goal is to go to all combined facilities because it's more cost effective to the taxpayer to run public safety out of a single facility. So we would construct that facility with that in mind. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Hancock. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I may be mixing two things, but don't we have a station that is not yet constructed proposed along Immokalee Road west of 1-757 MS. FLAGG: It's one of those pink dots. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. Do we currently have point specific coverage to that area or we do not at this point? In other words, do we have a unit stationed in that area or are we still operating that area out of North Naples? MS. FLAGG: This is where that addition is going right here. (indicating) CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Diane, you need to get on the microphone. MS. FLAGG: Sorry. That addition onto the North Naples Fire Station is going right here. This is the location. Quail Creek is right here. It's temporarily located right here, but this is its permanent location right here. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: The reason I ask is it's moving closer to Corkscrew, and when you talked about a 20-minute response time but if yet we're locating a new station closer, won't that, in fact, reduce response time to Corkscrew? MS. FLAGG: No. This is -- The 20 minutes is with this station location right here. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: With that location. MS. FLAGG: Yes, sir. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. MS. FLAGG: And this is -- This has been a station that's been in place for two years. The only thing is, is that because we were able to put this station here to meet this growing area, we were -- have the opportunity to move this a little bit out to address this growing area. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: That was my question. MS. FLAGG: Yes. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I didn't know if that was operating in that locale '- MS. FLAGG: Yes. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: -- Currently or has been. Okay. Thank you. MS. FLAGG: On the Capri service area/951 service area, again, that is due to be increasing call volume. We're also experiencing increasing calls in that area. The biggest challenge with this particular area is that the Marco Island medical call volume is increasing, and the next closest unit to Marco Island comes from the Naples Manor area. So what that means is we have a unit on Marco Island presently. Last year we had -- there were just over 100 times last year where two medical calls came into the 911 center within ten minutes of each other. What that meant is that the first call that came in got this unit. The second call that came in got this unit. And so by placing the unit here, that will provide the coverage to this specific area here and also secondary coverage to the Marco Island area. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Also that area along 951, especially on the east side of it, is growing fairly rapidly. MS. FLAGG: We've been working with growth planning and it's -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Much to the chagrin of Dr. Bowles. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It's growing fairly rapidly. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Diane, will an Isles of Capri EHS station reduce the number of flight hours that we spend actually doing transports from Marco? Because I know currently there are judgment decisions made that rather than pull a unit off Marco and have to shift, you'll use Hedi-Flight because it operationally makes more sense. Will this, in fact, reduce the cost association with those Hedi-Flights? MS. FLAGG: Potentially. But, again, I'm working in an environment -- I have rejected a 10 percent increase and we experienced a 29 percent increase. So it's like all bets are off at this point because -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Countywide health program will be next. MS. FLAGG: It really -- The call volume is such that I -- the more people that are moving in and they're -- you know, it's just -- are -- the medics are just responding to calls under the premise of, yes, if everything would just sit still for a little while. But already just from '94 to '95, we've had a 12 percent increase over '94's calls for the two months of January and February. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Mr. Dorrill, might I ask why you put a not recommend by 951/Capri but not by Corkscrew? MR. DORRILL: It's response time and a concern about the -- just flat bottom line economics of trying to open and recruit and staff two new stations in one year and I was -- had asked could we push that back and do it at the beginning of the following year or asked to phase it in, but I was concerned over the general fund, cost complications of that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I have a question. What facility do you plan on using for the Isles of Capri? MS. FLAGG: One of the facilities that we've discussed is the current station there on Isles of Capri, and we could explore other facilities, but that currently is a county-owned and operated facility. MR. DORRILL: The other one we've asked them to explore with Real Property would be the -- now the county-owned Marco Island Airport at Marco Shores because of the -- there's a residential community there as well, and it's at least my impression that they could be out on 951 a little quicker than they could if they were down on the Isles of Capri. A little hard to get down and around Isles of Capri and back out to 951. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah. Those are small, narrow, winding roads. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: They've been recently resurfaced and running like a top, by the way. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Good. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: So they can run those ambulances in and out of there now with no problem. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: So what are you trying to say, Commissioner Norris? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: That the roads aren't as bad as they used to be. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Earlier today we were listening to a proposal from the Isles of Capri volunteer fire department special district about putting a three-man paid force. That's a dependent fire station, and I know they have an advisory board and so forth, but what's the likelihood of being able to share the labor pool on -- if we were to go forward and put that three-man force on? I know you're consistently looking for drivers for the ambulance that are not necessarily advanced life support people. MS. FLAGG: This unit would be serving the Isles of Capri area and would be responding to all the medical calls on Isles of Capri and in that general service area. And certainly if we were -- similar to what we do in Ochopee and the other stations is work with those departments and providing the services. But, you know, this -- Collier County's medical needs continue each year to grow. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah. We understand. I don't know how y'all feel about the Isles of Capri one. I know that we've got some budgetary problems here. MR. SHYKOWSKI: The general fund analysis that I did assumed one new station -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: One new station. MR. SHYKOWSKI: -- coming on line in '96. MR. DORRILL: If you want to try and do it, I think at a minimum it needs to be a late year phase-in. Because, otherwise, the impact in the general funds is pretty stiff there. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: But then we'll be looking at full-year operation the following year which is when we're really told we've got a hole in the budget so -- but I -- but I think this is something we need to -- need to take a look at, but I don't know what we can do about it. Any suggestions? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: The manager feels that the response time is adequate as it is now and that we should delay this for one year. It seems prudent. Seems like sound fiscal advice. We'll wait and see next year how we look again. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: So I hear you saying discretionary on Corkscrew and not recommended on 951/Capri? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Sounds right to me. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: How do you feel on that? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I don't know if I'm ready to put not recommended on that until I find out what we're doing with the Isles of Capri Fire Department. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: You know, if the citizens who live in Isles of Capri are willing to more than double their millage to put a third man or to put three paid men on the force and if they're willing to enter into a memorandum of agreement with the EHS service to have that person on the EHS also, it seems to me we could cut some of this $272,000 bill. Any idea how much, Miss Flagg? MS. FLAGG: Well, I know that certainly if you -- I can only review Capri's calls. The majority of those calls are medical calls so -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: The only cost you're going to reduce is the one EHT that can drive because you're still going to have to provide a paramedic down there which the fire department is not going to be able to do because they have to go through Dr. Tober's full program. The only thing they're going to be able to provide is an EHT qualified driver. So really the cost to benefits package associated with one full-time or two part-time EHT's is all we're going to save. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, actually, it's three because, I mean, they operate a 24-on, 48-off service. They're talking about the same service that the Isles of Capri was talking about. So you're talking about $125,000 of the 272 that's here. MS. FLAGG: That -- Isles of Capri is a little bit different because we are -- we cover the city and the county. We would provide this service and the millage would be right around 0.2 mills for -- even including putting this Isles of Capri unit on whereas the -- if the Isles of Capri in addition adds that millage to put three firefighters on, then we could potentially work something out similar to what we're doing in Ochopee where instead of both the firetruck and the medic unit going, it would just be the medic unit going with three people on it, and that's what we do presently in Ochopee. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: What is the response time in that area right now? MS. FLAGG: In the Isles of Capri area? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Yes. MS. FLAGG: It runs right around 90 -- 80, 90 percent of the time we're there within 13 minutes because the unit that's responding to Isles of Capri is coming from -- excuse me. MR. IJAMS: Marco. MR. DORRILL: Marco and/or the Naples Manor station that we share with -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: And should -- should we get in a pinch, the flight opportunity is there should we have to use it. MS. FLAGG: Right. Except the helicopter doesn't do house calls real well. So you still need -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: You have to have a big flat roof. MS. FLAGG: So you still need a ground unit to go. So if there's -- So if this unit is busy, then if there's a call in this area, it's this unit or this unit that takes the call. And, likewise, here, when you have a call here, it's -- this unit gets pulled or this unit gets pulled to take that call. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: As much as I would like to do them both, I think fiscally we're not going to be able to. I think we're going to have to make a decision. So I would support discretionary and not recommended for those two. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I don't mind the discretionary for the Corkscrew and -- and, you know, there's only three of us here and two of you can easily rule. I would just -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Are you trying to say we're beating up on you, Bettye? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: No. You're not beating up on me. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I would just like to see what the possibility is for providing what would amount to a much better service for just about half the cost that's here if we can work an agreement. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Let's go ahead and leave it open at discretionary. We can make it not recommended. I assume it will still be flagged, Mr. Dotrill, with an NR from your department the next time we look at so we'll still be reminded it's not recommended by you? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, with discretionary it's going to come back to us anyway. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. Let's go ahead and make that discretionary on number eight. MR. IJAMS: On number eight. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: So we can take a look at it in relation to the Isles of Capri Fire Department situation and see if there's an opportunity there. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: If there's a way to cut the cost. MS. FLAGG: The only other program is -- it's program nine and then a program -- an alternate to program nine. The State of Florida last year took a position that if an agency is going to respond to medical calls, then they're going to have to meet certain criteria. They know that licensed providers meet the training requirements, the experience requirements, meet the medical equipment requirements. But there are other agencies, unless they are licensed to provide medical services, don't have to meet any of those requirements. As a result, the State of Florida took the position that if agencies are going to respond to 911 medical calls, that they must establish what is called a memorandum of understanding with the licensed EHS provider and that these -- the memorandum of understanding shall include aspects such as what calls they do go to, what they do when they get there, what type of medical equipment they have, quality assurance that they have to actually write medical charts, and what they did for the patient if the paramedic unit wasn't there yet. In other words, all aspects of their operation, they now have to work in conjunction with the licensed EHS provider to ensure that the community is getting the care that they expect when they call 911. As a result, next month the medical director will be meeting with the various fire commissioners to discuss what position the fire departments wish to take on responding to medical calls. If they choose not to respond to medical calls, therefore, not pay for the costs associated with the training, with the quality assurance, with assuring that they're carrying the right equipment, this is an alternative to that. Program 9 and program 9A, the three-member teams would provide the opportunity not to have the fire departments respond to medical calls. It can be done in part or in whole. If the program was done in whole, that means that in the majority of the time, 95 percent of the time, a firetruck responding to medical calls would not be needed because that third person would be available through one of these programs. And at this point, I can't speak to whether each fire department is going to get an opportunity to decide whether they want to continue to respond to medical calls or not, and that really will kind of dictate this program. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Hancock. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I for one don't have enough information and haven't had enough input from the fire department to say yah, nay or -- on either of those two. I understand why our county manager has not recommended them. MR. DORRILL: This has huge policy implications that would get to the root of the age old problem about how many -- what types of units are responding to emergency or rescue calls, and I don't even have enough information yet on what the administrative rule is to know whether that discretion finally will rest with the county commission to determine whether or not independent fire districts who are going to argue that they are charter and they're special act that the legislature compels them to run rescue calls. I don't know whether that's ultimately going to rest with the medical director in his professional liability insurance and the issues attendant to malpractice on the part of firefighters who may be a first responder in administering certain first aid until we get there, and they have a briefing established with me as well. And since there were so many question marks, I just -- again, I felt compelled to put not recommended. In the event that this were to move forward and we have the discretion to work with the fire districts, my first level of offer would obviously be to require that they provide the cost and the manpower attendant to putting a third individual on a unit, albeit a fireman, in lieu of you having to pay for either one of those two. And my other question would be, why can't we do that with existing units as opposed to your having to purchase quick-response vehicles which is a totally different type of animal and would be something new to our EMS system. That's why I'm not -- I did not recommend it. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: If I may interrupt, I don't see this budget process as being the appropriate mechanism to argue or fight or discuss at this point. I'm willing to go not recommended on both of these for the simple reason that there's a lot of work to be done before we can either recommend or not recommend either one of these, and I don't think this budget process is the avenue to do that in. So I'm going to vote for not recommended on both of those. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I agree because I don't see that -- what I see is that we're being asked if we go with this, to spend a million six, but it doesn't save the fire departments essentially anything. I mean, they're going to have the equipment there. They're going to have the personnel on board. If they run out to a call, all it costs them is diesel fuel so I don't see that we're going to -- we're not supplanting any services that will come with the commensurate cut in dollars expended. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I concur. MS. FLAGG: Commissioners, if I may, this was just kind of a heads-up, if you will. The state has mandated that anyone who responds to medical calls must have the training, must have the equipment, must have the program that we've put together, has the fire departments paying for all of it. In other words, if they're going to respond to medical calls, they will need to have the training. We'll provide it, but they need to pay for it. And under that pretense, that is -- we are hoping that's the direction they go, that they wish to continue to work with us, and it's the state's position that -- the only position they took was if they are going to continue to respond, the legislature -- if they are going to continue to respond, then we -- then we all have an obligation to assure that proper training is done, quality assurance is done, medical documentation is done, medical equipment is utilized properly. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: earlier. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: items one through five? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: You explained all that Yes, you did. How are we going to rank I see base level -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- is we're required to do that? MS. FLAGG: Those are -- base and senior medical are programs that are mandated by 401 and 10D-66 as far as the training for number two, and number three is that program that allows us to -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's at least essential. MS. FLAGG: -- put money away for units as we need them. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I'd rank that one as essential. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I would agree. Inter-facility paramedic unit, at this point that's still essential with -- Well, it has the potential of changing if the cardiac unit becomes -- MS. FLAGG: In 1996. October of 1996 is when NCH is hoping to put their open-heart unit in. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: At this point it looks like it's going to have to continue -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: then -- MS. FLAGG: Right. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER NORRIS: discretionary. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: for the top five. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: seven through nine. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So for the next year -- it's essential. Special event is Discretionary. Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. So we have H, H, E, E, D And D, D, NR for the -- Right. D, D, NR, NR for For the bottom four. MR. FINN: Billing services, number six, did we rank that one? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's kind of gone away. MR. IJAMS: That's G for gone. MS. FLAGG: Well, that will be an expense to us but if the -- the monies -- it will be a line item expense to us through the revenue department. MR. DORRILL: Under your current policies it's essential because you do require user fees for the EMS system, and whether they're doing it under contract or they do it with their own employees, I'd say it's essential. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: One of the points I brought out this morning that the -- some of these fee base services will be paying their own way and some of the otherwise ad valorem-supported services, but shouldn't that -- technically shouldn't that now be moved up into number one, base level service? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: The billing? MR. FLAGG: Billing? Well, it's reflected -- my understanding is like capital recovery, it's something that we need to do but we're not mandated to do it. We're not mandated to charge fees for service. MR. FINN: The board certainly has the leeway to change their policy on the entire EMS operation of ad valorem taxes and eliminate the need to do any -- MS. FLAGG: But we'd rather you not do that. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I think we're going to skip on that and keep it right where it is. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: You know, we can do it for free. We're not mandated to charge for it. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Next item. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you, Miss Flagg. MS. FLAGG: Thank you, Commissioners. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Thank you for pointing that out, Mr. Finn. MS. FINN: Oh, you're very welcome. Miss Flagg forgot that she pointed that out to me the other day, I guess. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Next on our agenda is the Airport Authority. MR. DORRILL: Yes. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Filing in. MR. IJAMS: Thank you, Madam Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Ijams. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I guess you didn't bring your aircraft today. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: It must be three o'clock. Here comes the Airport Authority. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: We went from an hour behind to an hour and 15 minutes behind. We slipped a little. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: do this pretty fast. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: we can move through this. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Well, we might be able to Yeah. Okay. Let's see how fast We're running about an hour behind. If I may, before you start, our standard opening question, you have two organizational charts here and understanding you're in the start-up business, are any of these positions not filled, currently vacant of these two organizational charts? MR. DRURY: Yes. The airport manager for Marco. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's recent, though, isn't it? MR. DRURY: That's very recent. We're interviewing. We're calling -- The organizational chart that you're looking at, does it have the -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Four operational staff directly beneath. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: This one. (indicating) It's got four operational staff under Marco. MR. DRURY: Okay. As far as Chart A goes, the Marco Airport one would be the only one not filled. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: The airport manager. MR. DRURY: The airport manager for Marco is not filled. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I thought there was another position at Marco. Maintenance worker one, that's supposedly been vacant since the middle of February? MR. DRURY: There is a seasonal employee for line services that has not been hired as well. That's correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: And as to the second chart, again, the Marco executive airport manager position is vacant? MR. DRURY: That's correct. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: The five positions beneath, are they all filled? MR. DRURY: The airport supervisor for Everglades, vacant; airport supervisor for Immokalee, vacant; operational staff under Everglades, vacant; operational staff under Immokalee, vacant. The four employees are filled for Marco, but the .5 or seasonal employee has not been hired. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Do you anticipate any of these openings not being required to be filled in the coming fiscal year? MR. DRURY: No. They need to be filled for the coming fiscal year. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. MR. SHYKOWSKI: Commissioners, we have budgeted that the Immokalee Airport -- those positions were budgeted as just four-month phase-ins this year based on the estimated completion schedule of the capital improvements there upon which -- you know, upon their completion, that would necessitate the staffing obviously to operate the fuel farm, et cetera. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. Okay. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Drury, do you want to proceed? MR. DRURY: Yeah. We wanted to start out with presenting you our first grant reimbursement check. And with that, I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Price. MR. PRICE: Since you're running behind, I'll skip my prepared remarks here and make it brief. We made a commitment to turn the liabilities that we had at our airports into assets. We're well on the way to do that. Commissioner Matthews was helpful in obtaining the Marco Airport, and I think at your last meeting or meeting before you acted to do that. We've gotten grant money to complete some $4 million in improvements in the county. Some of that is money you're going to loan us. Three million some plus dollars is actual grant money. Those grants are tax dollars that the Collier County citizens have been paying for years. They've been going into trust funds, and we've been letting everybody else use them, and we're bringing some of that money back and spending it in Collier County now. There will be over $3 million in capital improvements jobs and materials and in assets that will be built. We've got the first check today that we want to present to you, and George Baron, our chairman last year, is going to present you with that check for $32,739, and that's one beginning of several million dollars in checks that will be returned in the next few months as we do these capital improvements in Collier County and that's money coming -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It's a pleasure. MR. BARON: I just want to come up here to congratulate -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, thank you. MR. BARON: -- the whole board on this first check that's come down from the FDOT. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeahhh! COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: All right. MR. BARON: All right. We're beginning to repay back the loan you have given us and what we were -- continue borrowing from you as long as we can get it paid back in the next five years. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Anyone with any other checks, please come forward. None? Okay. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's great. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Enjoy. Oh, boy. When do we get the next one? I mean, that's -- MR. DRURY: Very soon. MR. PRICE: Very soon. The bids are -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's less than 1 percent of what we need. MR. PRICE: The bids are going to be open April the 5th or 6th, I believe it is, with work to begin almost immediately at Immokalee, and we're moving right along. We're fortunate. We found an airport director last year that came in and didn't wait. He just hit the ground running. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Finds money under rocks. It is amazing. It's fun to watch, fun to watch. MR. PRICE: For years I've been told it couldn't be done. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And now it is. MR. PRICE: And now we're $4 million plus into improving our liabilities, turning them into assets so -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Wonderful. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Good job. MR. DRURY: Before you, Commissioners, you have really four programs. You have the Airport Authority Administrative program. You have the Everglades Airpark program. You have the Immokalee Regional Airport program and the Marco Island Airport program. With the first program being the Administrative program, six programs within that program were identified. Staff ranked them one through six. The Collier County Airport Authority ranked them one through six. After staff developed them, then they were presented to the county manager for his comments, and he probably would comment on those, and then now they're before you for your ranking and any questions that you may have. And I don't know if you want to take them airport by airport or whatever the pleasure of the board is. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Any questions? MR. SHYKOWSKI: Programs two through six are new proposed programs. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We have -- The manager has ranked item two as NR. You want to explain, Mr. Dotrill? MR. DORRILL: Again, none other than that is outside of the board's directed pay adjustment and salary increase as part of your fiscal policy. It's not a reflection on Mr. Drury because he is a very bright, capable young man. His contract otherwise says that he will receive the same annual pay adjustment as any other county employee, and I think it also says that he may receive the same merit program allowance that any other county employee would receive. There's no other special pay adjustment provision in that contract. And while he's very capable, I would remind you that you've -- you have at least 45 other department directors who are just as capable and have to live by the same pay adjustment and fiscal policy as any of the other thousand employees that are out there. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Wasn't this -- Again, I wasn't on the board at the time, but according to what I read in the newspaper, when Mr. Jury was hired, it was, "Will you please come in at this low salary but trust us .... CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: "Trust us." COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: -- you know, "We're going to do this review and .... CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: "We'll reward you." COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: If things are going -- I mean, that's the way the newspaper reported it. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's exactly the way I remember it, and the board at that time was -- you know, we had kind of an unknown out there, not knowing what these airports were even capable of, and I believe our eyes have been widely opened. And I know that the original application, I believe, Mr. Drury, that you put in was looking for even more than the 59,000 that is being asked for here. I for one don't have a lot of difficulty with an increase in salary. He's done a very good job. We promised it to him if he did a good job, and I don't have much of a problem with it. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I think it's an E. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I might ask Commissioner Norris for his recollection of that. I have to rely upon those that were here before me because my inclination is to agree with Commissioner MAtthews' assessment; however, I wasn't here at the time that Mr. Drury was hired. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, I think it would be easy enough to check the records to see exactly what was said, but that sounds like that's what we said -- MR. PRICE: I could -- COMMISSIONER NORRIS: -- or something to that effect and I'm -- I think we should leave this one in as a D, and when we come back in June, we'll look at what -- we'll have somebody show us what we did say in that meeting. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: That would help me at least clarify it and support it. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I'm not sure that the board specifically said very much in the meeting at all. I think we talked -- we talked about this a couple of times, wanting to pay more but not knowing what was being offered as to where the airports would be in a few short years and this has -- this has gone in one year what I think we were looking for in four or five years. So, anyway, I don't have any objection to it staying at a D, but I certainly would like it not to be NR. MR. PRICE: To help -- Excuse me. If I could just in helping in terms of the recollections, some ways to look at this, the job was first sent to the personnel department. They came up with a salary range that was given to the Airport Authority. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And we cut back. MR. PRICE: We advertised the job in that salary range and -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Which was what? MR. PRICE: Which was I think about $10,000 higher than what we settled on. MR. DRURY: High 50s to low 70s. MR. PRICE: We advertised, we interviewed, and the first two people we talked with after we came back from the county commission, the salary range was unacceptable at that time, took a walk, and while we didn't offer them the job, they withdrew their applications. One of them is Ted Soliday at the Naples Airport Authority now. And so we did advertise the job based on what county staff thought was an adequate range. The county commission, rightfully so, was a little apprehensive as we were embarking on a new program, and they cut the salary range back, but there was a lot of discussion about the fact that, you know, we would take a look at it again down the road. In light of that, not knowing if we were going to be here a year from now with it being a new project, Mr. Drury wanted to come back to Florida and was willing to come on and give it a shot, and I think his track record is such that we -- we're not asking so much for a raise, and I agree with Mr. Dotrill that his raises maybe shouldn't be substantially more than other people in similar positions who are doing similar work, and I won't say that all 45 of those people are doing as good a job as John is, but I think this is a one-time adjustment to put it in the proper range where it should have been to start with. After that, then I think it's more appropriate to compare him to the other people that are in terms of the percentage increase. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I think there's a general feeling up here that we feel very strongly that this is a good idea; however, in light of what we have called, you know, discretionary and what we have called whatever E stands for -- it slips my mind. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Essential. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: -- essential, this would not fall under the parameters of essential; however, I think there's a strong feeling up here that this is well warranted. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, let me -- let me -- I've got one more question to ask, Mr. Dotrill. If this pay increase were to take place, is he in the upper 90 percent of the pay range now for the job classification? Because I don't think we'd want that to happen either. MR. DORRILL: No. I think he said that the job range goes to 72,000. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Not the current. We reclassified this job. I remember doing that. MR. BARON: 42,900 to 64,389. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So 65 is the top? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: But they get frozen at 90 percent of the scale. MR. DORRILL: No. I think he -- last year you eliminated the control point mechanism -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We eliminated that? MR. DORRILL: -- for some additional flexibility. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I don't remember doing that. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So if 65 -- we're looking at 60 so -- Essential says programs deemed to be essential to the operation of the county. I think this is essential. I don't see why not. I don't know -- I personally don't need to look at it anymore. So in the interest of efficiency, I'm ready to make it an E. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I don't object to that either. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I'm just trying to be consistent in what we've done, and I'm reading the definition of essential. It said programs and I -- I think we're looking at a very specific dollar expenditure for a very specific purpose. Again, I'm not trying to take away from it and say I don't support it. I'm just trying to be consistent with what we've done today, and I lean toward discretionary in this type of expenditure. So that -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, I may be a bit confused here, but it says essential, programs deemed to be essential to the operation of the county. It seems to me that the entire Airport Authority is non-essential. I mean, we don't have to do that. In fact, a year ago we weren't doing it, and the county was still in existence then. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, that's true, but we have assets there, and there is a certain amount we have to do to protect the assets. And I agree, certainly raising the salary of the airport director is not essential to protecting the asset necessarily. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, I'm not -- I'm not debating that point at all. I'm just saying that the entire Airport Authority is not essential. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I know -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: And to rank any part of it essential or mandatory is not right. MR. DORRILL: Well, that's -- MR. DRURY: The only light I would shed and maybe -- in your conversation is that there are federal laws and state laws when it comes to operating the airport grants that you have signed where you've agreed to certain things, but I would agree that how you create the management of those airports is to your discretion. You've elected to use an Airport Authority to concentrate on these issues. But the only, quote, "laws" that mandate you to keep the airport operation are the grants that you've received in the past, not the ones that we're talking about, the previous grants for master plans that you would keep the airport operated in a safe and efficient manner; and, therefore, state law and federal law kicks in requiring you to do that. Also, when you -- when the federal government gave you the airports under the Surplus Property Act of 1944, in that deed transfer it specifically mandated certain things that you would do to keep the airport operational, safe, and continue to grow. So those are the only, quote, "essential things." How you choose to implement those are maybe the areas that you're getting into now. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: That's it. It has nothing to do with Mr. Drury's performance or any lack of desire to award this, but I'm just again trying to be consistent in our method today, and to me this is a discretionary category. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I'm just trying to look back and somebody told me -- on recap, did we make that a D or an E back at the very beginning? I had it marked that we made it essential even though by a technical definition it was probably discretionary, but we knew we wanted to keep it so no point in coming back to it again so let's go ahead and make it an E. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's exactly right. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So this seems to me to be identical to the recap program. It's discretionary in the truest sense of the word but -- COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Essential does not preclude us from talking about -- so to get this stupid thing off the hump, let's make it essential. We can still talk about it. We can delete it. We can change it. We can remove it. We can add to it. We can do whatever the heck we want. If you want an E by it -- let's move onto the next subject. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. MR. DORRILL: Before you do, just in the interest of fairness, because you otherwise expect me to keep well-trained and motivated department directors, I'm just -- and, again, this has nothing to do with Mr. Drury, but I'm a little dumfounded as to how we have a budgeted fiscal policy with respect to pay increases that is very specific and then we would single out one department director for consideration outside of what you've already said, and I just in fairness would like to have the same opportunity and mechanism to do that for any of your other department directors because otherwise they're stuck getting the same cost of living increase or the same -- this year $750-one-time bonus mechanism that is there. And I will tell you that you have other department directors or division administrators that do work just as hard or harder than Mr. Drury has. The only thing that he has that the others don't is their own authority board to come in here and lobby the county commission, and that's really the only distinction and I'm -- so I'm -- I have to come down on the side of fairness and tell you that for us to ignore the balance of your management team, myself excluded, is just -- is a little insulting to those other people that you expect to work hard the other 52 weeks of the year. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner MAc'Kie. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: One other distinction and the controlling distinction from my perspective is that when he was hired, it was with the understanding that that salary would be revisited. And if he was trusting enough not to put that as a condition in his contract, well, maybe you shouldn't have. MAybe you should have made it a condition of the contract, but I think it was clear enough that that was a condition, that that's what distinguishes him from the other similar situations. MR. DRURY: I am the only person that has a contract. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We know. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Agreed, and I think this is a bunch of bickering for no reason because I think it's going to come up and it would probably get approved whether it's discretionary or whether it's essential but in order -- Just trying to move ahead and get off of this, I'll switch to E if it lets us go ahead, but I still think it should be discretionary. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Did we rank base level? I certainly don't think it's mandatory either but essential. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Essential. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: I think in light of Mr. Drury's comments about the commitments we've made regarding grants, I guess we'd have to rank that essential. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We've signed grant agreements; right, Mr. Drury? MR. DRURY: That's correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It's essential. You want to go on with your marketing and Trade Zone and so forth? MR. DRURY: In order to let the world know that these airports are here, particularly in the area of filling up the industrial park to bring in new revenues, we would like to put together approximately a $25,000 marketing program. We've done a very good job with the local news media of letting the local folks know what we're doing, but what we're trying to do is track new industry into Collier County. Particularly Immokalee will be targeted to lease all of our lease plots so that we can work towards self-sufficiency, and an intricate part of that is the marketing program, and that's the $25,000 that's before you. We would also market the MArco Island Executive Airport as well as the Everglades Airpark, all in an effort to increase fuel sales, our biggest revenue source. I'll be happy to answer questions, or do you want me to go down the list or -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Why don't you go ahead and do the Foreign Trade Zone and the lease. MR. DRURY: We have been actively involved in obtaining a Foreign Trade Zone status at the Immokalee Airport working with Lee County. We're trying to figure out exactly what Lee County is going to be looking at as far as how they're going to include us in that Foreign Trade Zone. But part of making the businesses in Collier County as competitive as those businesses in Lee County is to have access to that Foreign Trade Zone, and we're estimating approximately $10,000 in FY '96 to do everything that's necessary to activate the Foreign Trade Zone on the industrial park at Immokalee Airport. A lease commission fee, basically all of the brokers that do leasing in South Florida generally charge a fee to any industrial park when they bring a tenant on board. Right now they have shied away from the Authority in bringing any of their clients. When they bring a client in that's willing to lease a parcel of land at Immokalee and they realize they're dealing with government and that there's no commission, they take that potential client to another county or another entity because that entity will pay usually about 10 percent of the lease rentals that are accompanied. What we have done is estimated about two lease plots at $6,800 that we could at least send a message to the brokers that are in contact day in and day out with potential new businesses whereas I am not and get on line with them that, yes, we are willing to pay a fee if you'll bring your clients to help fill our industrial park. The last one is an automobile. Currently I lease an automobile from Fleet Management, another division within the county. It's been recommended to me that in lieu of leasing I should purchase a vehicle. I use that vehicle currently -- Last week I was in Orlando. The week before I was in Bartow. I go on a weekly basis to all three airports, and that's basically what I use the airport -- the vehicle for, is on a day-to-day basis to get to those. And that's the summary of the administrative. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So you're talking about the Airport Authority purchasing a vehicle for your use? MR. DRURY: The number comes from Fleet Management. I guess the way the program works is that Fleet -- We would put it in our budget. Fleet Management would actually purchase it -- MR. DORRILL: John, let me -- let me jump in here. We're asking him to advance pay the capital recovery charge that we discussed earlier for Fleet Management where everyone sets aside as part of their mileage increment. This car is essentially on loan from the general fund, and we just think it's prudent to otherwise let him prepay his capital recovery cost so that this asset could then be purchased and owned by the Authority. That was something we discussed with them this morning so they're a little more familiar with the capital recovery charge. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I have a question on the Airport Authority itself. I know that we're still getting it off the ground and that essentially a lot of what we're doing is seed money, but it seems to me that one of the reasons that we loaned capital infrastructure money to you as opposed to giving you a grant on it is that as the airports become profitable, you're required to reinvest those funds in the airport itself. You can't fund our general fund with those funds. MR. DRURY: That's correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And I guess what I'd like this board to consider -- and I realize this is seed money. Okay. I don't have any problem with that. But in the event you become profitable, it would be nice to be able to recover the seed money. MR. DRURY: That's correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And right now there's no provision for that. MR. DRURY: There should be a vehicle document to do that. We have told you that we are keeping track of that money and the Authority will pay back the county for that seed money when it becomes profitable in five or six years, but there has been no formal document that really defines all of that, and maybe that's where you're leading to, and I'd be happy to begin drafting a document with legal and the county manager's office if that -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It would be my goal for you to become self-sufficient, and it would be my goal for the Airport Authority when it's profitable to begin paying back all of these monies that we've been advancing in order to get you off the ground. I don't mind advancing the money. I think it's a great economic investment, but because of the constraints that the Airport Authority is under and the requirement to reinvest its profit in the airport itself, that the citizens of Collier County have no advantage under the current agreements to recapture this money, and I think I might like to find a way to do that. MR. PRICE: That's been the intention I think of the Authority. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah. But I think we need to get something legal done up so that when -- when -- I mean, the way John's going, you guys are going to make money next year the way you're going, and I'd like to start trying to recapture some of that. MR. PRICE: In contrast, you know, the City of Naples in the last year too have talked about how they could get some money out of Naples' airports. The one thing we don't want to do is have the county put all this money into the airports and then some day the airports are making money and the county can't get it back. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Right. MR. PRICE: So I agree. There ought to be some method of keeping track of that and imputing some interest rate to it so that for a long period of time even the county could take back -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Is 35, 40 percent interest okay with you? MR. PRICE: Certainly. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. MR. PRICE: I like those kind of rates. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: He's a banker, you know. MR. DRURY: We will develop a document in that spirit. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. I would like to see that because, like I say, I don't mind advancing the money but -- you know, and I'm comfortable here -- MR. PRICE: And that all includes salaries for John and everything? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: All your operating costs. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Can we go ahead and rank the last four items on page three? We've got a good explanation on those. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah. I have no problem. To me they're at least discretionary. I'm not sure that they're not essential but -- COMMISSIONER NORRIS: D's fine. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: D is fine with me. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I don't see any reason that they wouldn't be going forward. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I didn't see that with number two either but D wasn't put on there. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, then let's make them E's. MR. DRURY: The Everglades Airpark -- and these are in alphabetical order. We have really two programs within there. One is the basic essential needs to keep the airport maintained, purchase fuel for resale, staff it with 1.5 employees. That's staff rank one and Collier County Airport Authority rank one. The second one is a modest $4,500 for some terminal building furniture. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It's just furniture for your customers to sit? MR. DRURY: A place for the passenger to sit down and wait -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Rest his weary feet. MR. DRURY: -- wait for the next scenic tour of the 10,000 Everglades. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I mean, there's not a terminal right now; right? I mean, there's just -- MR. DRURY: That's correct. We're building an airport terminal building now that's about 1,000 square feet. We've got a 90 percent grant to do that. It's costing $100,000. We're paying 90 -- $10,000 loan and the $90,000 grant. It will be completed by December of '95. We had a very bone -- bare-boned amount of money to do this. We had to raise the terminal building because it's in a flood plain, and we have all these other codes that require -- We really just didn't have enough money to put furniture in there. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Can we rank both of these D? COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I have no problem with that. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: No problem. MR. FINN: Excuse me, Madam Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We have grants on the terminal, don't we? MR. FINN: The staffing for this airport -- John and I have discussed this at length. I think it's a little more than discretionary. I think it's a requirement of the grant, the first one. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: The first one. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: The first one's a requirement of the grant? MR. DRURY: Yes. In order to keep the airport operational. See, we have our lighting maintenance in there, when a light bulb runs out, windsocks, the electric bill for the lights, and things of that nature just to keep it open. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So we have an E then. Everybody agree? COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Uh-huh. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Yeah. MR. DRURY: The next one is the Immokalee Regional Airport. Same scenario on number one. That is the basic essential needs to keep the airport operational with 1.5 employees. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: How come it's so much more expensive? MR. DRURY: Well, it's three runways instead of one runway, I think is one, and another is fuel. In Everglades we're only purchasing about 10,000 gallons of fuel for aviation fuel. Immokalee we'll be offering three products. We'll be offering jet fuel, aviation fuel, and what we call mow gas. We need to purchase that fuel over the period of time, and it's probably about four times the amount of fuel we'll be purchasing for Immokalee as we would for Everglades. The other thing is the maintenance on three runways as opposed to one runway is a little bit more. The runways are longer. They're about a mile long where the Everglades runway is a half a mile. That means twice the number of lights that need to be repaired and things of that nature. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And this one would also be essential because of the grant monies? MR. DRURY: That's correct. The second thing is the same issue. We have a little bit more money, 6,500, for furniture, but then the building is twice as large, and so that's the increase there. And the third item is a light pickup truck. We have about 1,333 acres to maintain. We have one person doing that but that one person -- the 1.5 employees has to greet airplanes, and then if there's a runway light, has to huff it across the field to repair it. Also, that person from time to time may go down to Everglades to repair problems down there. So a light pickup truck would be used for maintaining the airport, fixing runway lights, changing out windsocks, and things of that nature. Those are the three items there. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Discretionary? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Discretion for two and three? COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yes. MR. DRURY: The last one is the Marco Island Executive Airport. The first one is the airport services. There, of course, we have more employees and a lot more fuel that we purchase because we sell a lot of fuel, and it's all jet fuel as far as our primary fuel, but we do offer av gas. The number two item was that seasonal employee during the peak months of December, January, and February where we -- One employee is just not enough to handle all the jets that arrive all at the same time and all want the same service at the same time. The third item is a computer for the airport manager. There were no computers at that airport before I arrived. Last year we purchased one computer, the all-in-one system for the secretarial staff to process all of the payables and receivables and be on line with the county. What I'm asking this year is the manager down there really needs a computer to do his or her work. It's very hard, almost impossible, to share one computer between a secretarial staff and a manager. So we're asking for an additional computer there. The fourth item that's before you is a courtesy van for the pilots when they come to the airport. Basically this van would be offered to the corporate pilot that flies to the airport to go into town and to have lunch or to get away from the airport and take care of things that they would like to take care of. This one has an NR next to it, and the county manager may want to speak on it. And I will get into more depth on why a courtesy van is almost essential in my opinion at that airport after I finish this last one when you all ask questions. The last one is a pickup truck. Right now employees are using their own vehicles to do daily bank runs. We have to do daily bank runs at that airport because all the federal excise laws -- Federal excise taxes on all fuel has to be deposited within a bank within so much time. So we do a lot of running back and forth between the banks. We also run to the part stores to pick up all sorts of odds and ends for the fuel farm and the fuel trucks, ice for the customer, coffee. All the employees are using their personal vehicles to do that. Also maintaining the runway. We have a one-mile-long runway with runway lights and the whole lighting system. A light pickup truck is really necessary to start maintaining these airports. And those are the five items that are before you today. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Dorrill, do you care to speak on the courtesy van? MR. DORRILL: Not very long. I just -- I didn't think that the proposal when I saw it was well developed enough. My understanding was that this vehicle would be a county-owned vehicle but would be available I believe for the unrestricted or exclusive use of corporate pilots as a perk or incentive to get them to fly in there to purchase jet fuel for corporate aircraft. I had a concern about liability in terms of those individuals, that they would not -- this is not a courtesy van in the sense of where we would take them to their airport -- or the hotel, rather, pick them up. This would be a vehicle that they would have for their use while they are in town and they -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: They'll be driving it? MR. DORRILL: They would be driving it is my understanding. I wanted to see a little more on the liability side as to how we just toss keys to someone without any indication of what their background or driving record may be, a major insurance question with it, and I wanted to see a little more of a pro forma in terms of if you offer this type of perk, what should we expect in the way of increased corporate fuel sales. Short of that, they were in the process of developing a bid spec for car rental franchises because we see a lot of promise there for increased car rental opportunities, and I asked them to at least anticipate writing in the bid spec so many days or so many hours per year as a condition of their on-site car rental franchise that they would make available to the Airport Authority and/or corporate pilots the use of a car at no expense to the county, and so I asked them to consider that as an alternative. And that's the basis for my not recommending this. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That last one sure seems to have a lot of potential in writing that into the rental car agreement. MR. DORRILL: Well, I don't want to do anything that ultimately limits the car rental revenues, and I don't want to make it so restrictive, but I asked them to consider that subject to availability or something, that the car rental franchisee would make a courtesy car available to the Airport Authority for us and at its discretion. MR. DRURY: What I think it boils down to for us is that we are trying to be competitive and compete with other private-sector airports. I'll give you a for instance. In Vermont when we ran all the FBO's up there, we offered a courtesy vehicle and ski lift tickets to the ski resort. The corporate pilot that was flying the CEO to a business meeting had a choice, at airport A or airport B. That corporate pilot was going to sit in a terminal building for eight hours, and it was not the CEO's who made the decision in the back of the jet that made the decision as to what airport they would fly into and buy 1,000 or 2,000 gallons of fuel. It was the corporate pilot. And when that corporate pilot is flying in the air thinking, which -- The meeting is halfway in between. Which airport am I going to fly into? They're thinking of what is available for me at that airport. At Marco I have gone down there and I have seen pilots curled up on the seat waiting for their CEO. Our employees have been -- In recognizing that every other airport offers this service, our employees take their personal vehicles and give them the keys. Our employees will physically drive them down to a restaurant to get something to eat. So what we are trying to do is offer an incentive that is what you would see in the private sector. All of the privately owned FBO's will offer this. And what we're trying to do is really apply a private sector type of thinking to government in trying to run this thing. As it relates to liability, we have talked to Risk Management about insuring the vehicle, and we would insure the vehicle. The other thing I would add is the types of people that we give the keys to are pilots, the most safety-oriented type of people -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: You can fly a small jet but we don't know about driving a van. MR. DRURY: Yeah. I mean, it's not like we're giving it to anyone who walks off the street. The third thing I would say is that every other airport, Naples Airport included, all have courtesy vans, and we would be the only airport in Southwest Florida really without a courtesy van which just makes us a little less attractive to come into, and that's the reasoning and the philosophy behind why an airport offers a courtesy vehicle or any of what we call pilot perks, coffee, ice, because those little things will bring a pilot in who will buy 1,000 or -- $1,500 worth of jet fuel, and that's a significant revenue that we could lose to somebody else. MR. PRICE: That's all listed in your pilot information manuals. Whenever I plan a trip, that's one of the first things I look for. Where I'm going to stop to get gas is going to have a courtesy vehicle or I'll stop somewhere else. And of, course, you know, I'm buying $150 worth. With a corporate jet they're buying $1,500 worth, and it is a significant factor. I mean, all of your pilot materials list what the services of the airport are, and that's one of the main things that everybody looks for. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So maybe we should get a courtesy van and get the MArriott Golf Course to give us free tickets. MR. PRICE: We've talked about that too. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: How do we want to handle this? MR. DRURY: I think with the marketing program that you'll see down there with our new airport manager, you're going to see the revenues. I mean, I'm going to do everything we can to see revenues go up and those revenues go into the Airport Authority system to take care of Everglades and Immokalee in the beginning when they're not making money. And hopefully when Immokalee and Everglades grow up, then the Authority system of airports is self-sufficient and we start paying the county back for its leverage money for all those grants. So it's a revenue not just for the MArco Island Airport. It's a revenue for the Airport Authority system. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: It would appear to me that when this board made a commitment to go ahead with trying to create some world class airports here, that to go halfway and to put ourselves at any type of disadvantage for selection to corporate pilots would not be in line with other things. I would like to put it at discretionary for the simple reason that when it comes to a courtesy van versus some other things we've talked about today, the courtesy van is going to lose out. So I don't want to bode out yet, but the highest I can take that is discretionary. As far as the other things on this list, it seems to me airport service on MArco -- I guess it could be discretionary. I lean more towards essential. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, that too is under the grant. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: We ranked the others essential. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah. There are grants on that one too. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Want to go to essential on that? Is seasonal employment -- would that be essential also, Mr. Drury, under those grants? MR. DRURY: No. I think it would be discretionary. Just our ability to service the customer fast, efficiently. We've been doing it now slowly. We'd like to do it as fast as our competitors do it. So it's discretionary. MR. PRICE: It's discretionary but it's one that will pay for itself. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. Those are important things when we talk about this again to know about, but I would say discretionary on the balance of the four. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah. I was going to say, can we rank two through five discretionary? COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: (Nodding head.) MR. FINN: Before -- MAdam Chairman, I was just going to say, before we wrap up this discussion, I know the board is totally committed to the Airport Authority, but I do want to point out that when you see the line item budgets for the Authority, the subsidy -- general fund subsidy to the authority is going to grow from about $180,000 to in all likelihood in the neighborhood of $400,000 as a result of the program we have just essentially put into the line item budget. Mr. Drury hasn't completed his analysis of the actual Airport Authority revenues, but I think that's generally a safe statement. MR. DRURY: Yeah. I think when we really begin to forecasting revenues -- This is a very tough assignment. I have no track record for Immokalee or for Everglades, but I'm going to do my best to anticipate the number of gallons sold and what our profit margins will be. I think in the next several weeks after we've completed an in-depth reasonable assessment on revenues we'll have a better figure on what the actual subsidy rate would be in comparison to last year. But let there be no mistake that we are now activating two new airports, and previously those airports were not activated. There were no employees. There were no terminal buildings. There was nothing there. They were liabilities. So you're converting them to assets. In order to do that, there is going to be this period of time where we need to staff it to attract the new industry to start paying the rent and selling the fuel and getting a track record. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I.e., the seed money. When you make money, I'd like to get it back. MR. DRURY: This is really -- At the end of the five years when we talk about economic development and we look at this program from beginning to end, I'm hopeful that this will be economic development in its rawest form of what this county has done with two liabilities and how it turned it into economic development opportunities. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Let's hope it goes there, and I'm confident it will. MR. DORRILL: I think we're done for purposes of today. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We're finished for today? MR. DORRILL: I had one question of the budget staff for tomorrow. Did y'all anticipate doing the utility budget reviews after the board meeting? MR. SHYKOWSKI: With you. MR. DORRILL: Okay. I was going to say because I don't -- I was even going to suggest to the board because of the anticipation of the bid spec to privatize, we may want to just reschedule the program utility review until you can actually see the request for proposal documents because that's essentially going to be your bid spec for utilities next year whether you privatize it or not, and rather than sitting here for half the day going over program budget reviews for utilities at the same time you're out on the street taking bids, we may want to rethink that, but I'll check into that and advise you tomorrow before the meeting. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So we're going to do that tomorrow afternoon? MR. DORRILL: No. They were going to do it with me tomorrow afternoon, but I'm thinking that maybe we ought to defer that from the county commission until you see, quote, "the bid spec" for utilities because that's going to be essentially your program level requirements for utilities for next year regardless of who's running it. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. MR. SHYKOWSKI: Commissioners, if you would, if you could leave your books behind, we have copies -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I know. You've got sheets -- you have pages to put in. MR. SHYKOWSKI: Right. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Fill them up again. MR. SHYKOWSKI: To supply. Time for a refill. If you could leave them in the board office with Sue or -- COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: How about right here? COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: How about right here? MR. SHYKOWSKI: Right here is even better. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I wouldn't leave them right here because the PBC will be meeting here in about a half hour. I'd carry them back. We're adjourned. There being no further business for the Good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by Order of the Chair at 5 p.m.