BCC Minutes 02/27/2024February 27, 2024
Page 1
TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
Naples, Florida February 27, 2024
LET IT BE REMEMBERED that the Board of County
Commissioners, in and for the County of Collier, and also acting as
the Board of Zoning Appeals and as the governing board(s) of such
special districts as have been created according to law and having
conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m., in
REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex,
East Naples, Florida, with the following Board members present:
Chairman: Chris Hall
Rick LoCastro
Dan Kowal
William L. McDaniel, Jr.
Burt L. Saunders
ALSO PRESENT:
Amy Patterson, County Manager
Daniel Rodriguez, Deputy County Manager
Jeffrey A. Klatzkow, County Attorney
Crystal K. Kinzel, Clerk
Troy Miller, Communications & Customer Relations
Page 1
February 27, 2024
COLLIER COUNTY
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
COMMUNITY REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY BOARD (CRAB)
AIRPORT AUTHORITY
AGENDA
Board of County Commission Chambers
Collier County Government Center
3299 Tamiami Trail East, 3rd Floor
Naples, FL 34112
February 27, 2024
9:00 AM
Commissioner Chris Hall, District 2; – Chair
Commissioner Burt Saunders, District 3; – Vice Chair
Commissioner Rick LoCastro, District 1
Commissioner Dan Kowal, District 4; – CRAB Co-Chair
Commissioner William L. McDaniel, Jr., District 5; – CRAB Co-Chair
NOTICE: ALL PERSONS WISHING TO SPEAK ON AGENDA ITEMS
MUST REGISTER PRIOR TO PRESENTATION OF THE AGENDA ITEM
TO BE ADDRESSED. ALL REGISTERED SPEAKERS WILL RECEIVE UP
TO THREE MINUTES UNLESS THE TIME IS ADJUSTED BY THE
CHAIRMAN. ADDITIONAL MINUTES MAY BE CEDED TO AN IN-
PERSON SPEAKER BY OTHER REGISTERED SPEAKERS WHO MUST
BE PRESENT AT THE TIME THE SPEAKER IS HEARD. NO PUBLIC
SPEAKERS WILL BE HEARD FOR PROCLAMATIONS,
PRESENTATIONS AND PUBLIC PETITIONS. SPEAKERS ON
PRESENTATIONS ARE LIMITED TO 10 MINUTES, UNLESS EXTENDED
BY THE CHAIRMAN. ALL PERSONS WISHING TO SPEAK ON A
CONSENT ITEM MUST REGISTER PRIOR TO THE BOARD’S
APPROVAL OF THE DAY’S CONSENT AGENDA, WHICH IS HEARD AT
THE BEGINNING OF THE MEETING FOLLOWING THE PLEDGE OF
Page 2
February 27, 2024
ALLEGIANCE.
ANYONE WISHING TO ADDRESS THE BOARD ON PUBLIC PETITION
MUST SUBMIT THE REQUEST IN WRITING TO THE COUNTY
MANAGER AT LEAST 13 DAYS PRIOR TO THE DATE OF THE
MEETING. THE REQUEST SHALL PROVIDE DETAILED
INFORMATION AS TO THE NATURE OF THE PETITION. THE PUBLIC
PETITION MAY NOT INVOLVE A MATTER ON A FUTURE BOARD
AGENDA AND MUST CONCERN A MATTER IN WHICH THE BOARD
CAN TAKE ACTION. PUBLIC PETITIONS ARE LIMITED TO A SINGLE
PRESENTER, WITH A MAXIMUM TIME OF TEN MINUTES, UNLESS
EXTENDED BY THE CHAIRMAN. SHOULD THE PETITION BE
GRANTED, THE ITEM WILL BE PLACED ON A FUTURE AGENDA FOR
A PUBLIC HEARING.
ANYONE WISHING TO ADDRESS THE BOARD ON GENERAL TOPICS
NOT ON THIS AGENDA OR A FUTURE AGENDA MUST REGISTER TO
SPEAK PRIOR TO THE PUBLIC COMMENT PORTION OF THE
AGENDA BEING CALLED BY THE CHAIRMAN. SPEAKERS WILL BE
LIMITED TO THREE MINUTES, AND NO ADDITIONAL MINUTES MAY
BE CEDED TO THE SPEAKER. AT THE CHAIRMAN’S DISCRETION,
THE NUMBER OF PUBLIC SPEAKERS MAY BE LIMITED TO 5 FOR
THAT MEETING.
ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS
BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDING PERTAINING
THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A
VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH
RECORD INCLUDES THE TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH
THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED.
COLLIER COUNTY ORDINANCE NO. 2003-53 AS AMENDED BY
ORDINANCE 2004-05 AND 2007-24, REQUIRES THAT ALL LOBBYISTS
SHALL, BEFORE ENGAGING IN ANY LOBBYING ACTIVITIES
(INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ADDRESSING THE BOARD OF
COUNTY COMMISSIONERS), REGISTER WITH THE CLERK TO THE
BOARD AT THE BOARD MINUTES AND RECORDS DEPARTMENT.
IF YOU ARE A PERSON WITH A DISABILITY WHO NEEDS ANY
ACCOMMODATION IN ORDER TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS
Page 3
February 27, 2024
PROCEEDING, YOU ARE ENTITLED, AT NO COST TO YOU, THE
PROVISION OF CERTAIN ASSISTANCE. PLEASE CONTACT THE
COLLIER COUNTY FACILITIES MANAGEMENT DIVISION LOCATED
AT 3335 EAST TAMIAMI TRAIL, SUITE 1, NAPLES, FLORIDA, 34112-
5356, (239) 252-8380; ASSISTED LISTENING DEVICES FOR THE
HEARING IMPAIRED ARE AVAILABLE IN THE FACILITIES
MANAGEMENT DIVISION.
LUNCH RECESS SCHEDULED FOR 12:00 NOON TO 1:00 P.M.
1. INVOCATION AND PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
A. Invocation by Pastor Grant Thigpen, New Hope Ministries.
2. AGENDA AND MINUTES
A. Approval of today's regular, consent and summary agenda as amended
(Ex Parte Disclosure provided by Commission members for consent
agenda.)
B. October 10, 2023, BCC Minutes
C. February 6, 2024, BCC Workshop Minutes
3. AWARDS AND RECOGNITIONS
A. EMPLOYEE
1) 20 YEAR ATTENDEES
a) Joseph Olivier- Information Technology
b) Christopher Ambach- Code Enforcement
c) Years Anthony Dimeglio- Water
2) 25 YEAR ATTENDEES
a) Andrew Brown- Information Technology
Page 4
February 27, 2024
b) Annmarie Mitchell- Parks & Recreation
c) Jorge Lazo- Wastewater
3) 30 YEAR ATTENDEES
4) 35 YEAR ATTENDEES
a) Rudy Luna- Water
B. ADVISORY BOARD MEMBERS
C. RETIREES
D. EMPLOYEE OF THE MONTH
4. PROCLAMATIONS
5. PRESENTATIONS
6. PUBLIC PETITIONS
7. PUBLIC COMMENTS ON GENERAL TOPICS NOT ON THE
CURRENT OR FUTURE AGENDA
8. BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS
A. This Item to be heard no sooner than 10 A.M. Recommendation
that the Board of County Commissioners, sitting as the Board of
Zoning Appeals, review the appeal of the August 18, 2023, Official
Interpretation issued by the Zoning Director regarding the type of use
or uses that qualify as a neighborhood fitness and community center, a
Conditional Use in the Golf Course Zoning District, and uphold the
interpretation of the Zoning Director that a “neighborhood fitness and
community center” is a facility that serves the fitness and community
needs of various neighborhoods and a broader community. This is a
county-wide Interpretation not specific to the Lakewood Golf Course.
(All Districts)
9. ADVERTISED PUBLIC HEARINGS
Page 5
February 27, 2024
A. This item has been continued to the April 23, 2024, BCC Meeting.
Recommendation to amend Collier County Growth Management Plan
to add the JLM Living East Residential Overlay to allow a maximum
density of 305 multi-family dwelling units with affordable housing for
property within the Rural Fringe Mixed Use District- Receiving
Lands. The subject property is located on the south side of Immokalee
Road, east of Woodcrest Drive, in Section 25, Township 48 South,
Range 26 East, Collier County, Florida, consisting of ±37.2 acres.
PL20220003804 (Companion to Items #9B and #9C) (District 3)
B. This item has been continued to the April 23, 2024, BCC Meeting.
This item requires that ex-parte disclosure be provided by
Commission members. Should a hearing be held on this item, all
participants are required to be sworn in. Recommendation to
approve a rezoning of real property from a Rural Agricultural (A)
zoning district within the Rural Fringe Mixed-Use Overlay-Receiving
District and within the Special Treatment Overlay (ST) for the project
to be known as JLM Living East RPUD, to allow construction of up to
305 multi-family dwelling units with affordable housing on property
located on the south side of Immokalee Road, east of Woodcrest
Drive, in Section 25, Township 48 South, Range 26 East, consisting of
37.2± acres. PL20220003805 (Companion to Items #9A and #9C)
(District 3)
C. This item has been continued to the April 23, 2024, BCC Meeting.
This item requires that Commission members provide ex-parte
disclosure. Should a hearing be held on this item, all participants
are required to be sworn in. Recommendation to approve Petition
VAC-PL20230007642 to disclaim, renounce, and vacate the County
and the Public interest in the 10-foot-wide public road right-of-way
easement over the westerly 10-feet of Tract A-1, as described in
Official Record Book 1476, Page 242, of the Public Records of
Collier County, Florida, located approximately 2,000 feet south of
Immokalee Road (CR-846) and 1,000 feet west of Richards Street in
Section 25, Township 48 South, Range 26 East, Collier County,
Florida. (Companion to Items #9A and #9B) (District 3)
10. BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
Page 6
February 27, 2024
A. This Item to be heard at 9:30 A.M. Request that the Board consider
scheduling a referendum on returning to at-large commission districts,
wherein each Commissioner would reside in one of the five
Commission Districts but would be elected in a County-wide vote.
(All Districts)
B. Recommendation to hear the reconsideration of the McDowell
Housing Partners - Ekos on Collier project approval of Workforce
Housing Land Acquisition Surtax Funding, made during discussion of
Item #11B at the January 23, 2024, BCC Meeting. (All Districts)
11. COUNTY MANAGER'S REPORT
A. Recommendation to consider a request by Rural Neighborhood, Inc.
and Renaissance Hall at Old Course, LLC for an extension of the
financing commitment deadline to March 26, 2024, and approve the
Second Extension to Financing Commitment Deadline in the
Developer Agreement and Lease for the Golden Gate Golf Course
Housing Project. (Ed Finn, Deputy County Manager) (District 3)
12. COUNTY ATTORNEY'S REPORT
A. Recommendation that the Board authorizes staff to prepare an
amendment to the Growth Management Plan resulting from a
mediation concerning a July 28, 2010, Developer Agreement
involving the Randall Boulevard Commercial Subdistrict, and
authorize staff to engage a transportation engineer in order to
complete the County’s portion of a Transportation Impact Statement
required for the Amendment. (District 5)
13. OTHER CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICERS
A. Recommendation to appoint two Commissioners as regular members,
three Commissioners as alternate members, and ratification of
appointed citizen member and alternate citizen member for a one-year
period on the Value Adjustment Board. (All Districts)
14. AIRPORT AUTHORITY AND/OR COMMUNITY
REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY
Page 7
February 27, 2024
A. AIRPORT
B. COMMUNITY REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY
15. STAFF AND COMMISSION GENERAL COMMUNICATIONS
A. Public Comments on General Topics Not on The Current or
Future Agenda by Individuals Not Already Heard During Previous
Public Comments in this Meeting
B. Staff Project Updates
C. Staff And Commission General Communications
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16. Consent Agenda - All matters listed under this item are considered to be
routine and action will be taken by one motion without separate
discussion of each item. If discussion is desired by a member of the
Board, that item(s) will be removed from the Consent Agenda and
considered separately.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A. GROWTH MANAGEMENT DEPARTMENT
1) Recommendation to approve final acceptance of the potable
water, irrigation quality water, and sewer facilities and accept
the conveyance of the potable water, irrigation quality water,
and sewer facilities for SkySail - Phases 3 and 5 of Phase 1B,
PL20230012348. (District 5)
2) This item requires that Commission members provide ex-
parte disclosure. Should a hearing be held on this item, all
participants are required to be sworn in. Recommendation to
approve for recording the final plat of Rivergrass North - Phase
1A (Application Number PL20220007569), approval of the
standard form Construction and Maintenance Agreement, and
approval of the performance security in the amount of
$8,858,927.35. (District 5)
3) This item requires that ex-parte disclosure be provided by
Page 8
February 27, 2024
Commission members. Should a hearing be held on this
item, all participants are required to be sworn in.
Recommendation to approve for recording the minor final plat
of City Gate Commerce Center, Phase One, Replat of Lots 7, 8,
and 9, Application Number PL20230017041. (District 3)
4) Recommendation for the Board of County Commissioners
approve the issuance of a sign permit within Collier County
Right-of-Way for the purpose of the relocation of the Olde
Cypress ground sign as a result of the intersection
improvements at Logan Blvd and Tree Line Drive in
accordance with Permit Application Number
PRSG20231044670. (District 2)
5) Recommendation to authorize the County Manager, or
designee, to release the Utilities Performance Security (UPS) in
the amount of $33,559.05 to the Project Engineer or
Developer’s designated agent for Tree Farm Apartments,
PL20220004818. (District 3)
6) Recommendation to authorize the County Manager, or
designee, to release the Utilities Performance Security (UPS) in
the amount of $11,196 to the Project Engineer or Developer’s
designated agent for Christ the King Church Offsite Watermain,
PL20220002981. (District 1)
7) Recommendation to approve final acceptance and accept the
conveyance of the potable water and sewer utility facilities for
Groves at Orange Blossom Phase 2A-2, PL20230018322.
(District 5)
B. TRANSPORTATION MANAGEMENT DEPARTMENT
1) Recommendation to approve the award of Invitation to Bid
(“ITB”) No. 23-8150, “Bike Lanes Along 111th Ave. N. east of
Bluebill Ave. Bridge to 7th St. N. (LAP),” to Thomas Marine
Construction, Inc., in the amount of $1,771,602.07, approve
Owner's Allowance of $100,000, authorize the Chairman to
sign the attached Construction Services Agreement, and
authorize the necessary Budget Amendments. (Companion Item
Page 9
February 27, 2024
to #16B2) (District 2)
2) Recommendation to approve and authorize the Chairman to
sign a Locally Funded Agreement (LFA) with the Florida
Department of Transportation (FDOT) to provide a lump sum
deposit of $176,576.95 to support the construction engineering
inspection (CEI) of bicycle lanes on 111th Ave North from the
foot of the Bluebill bridge to 7th Ave North, and authorize the
necessary budget amendment, FPN 441846-1-58-01. (Project
#33620, Fund 3081) (Companion Item to #16B1) (District 2)
3) Recommendation to approve and authorize the Chairman to
sign a Locally Funded Agreement (LFA) with the Florida
Department of Transportation (FDOT) to provide a lump sum
deposit of $192,192.67 to support the construction engineering
inspection (CEI) of sidewalk on Carson Rd. from Westclox St.
to Carson Lakes Circle, and authorize the necessary Budget
Amendment, FPN 441480-2-62-01. (Project #33622, Fund
3081) (Companion Item to #16B4) (District 5)
4) Recommendation to approve the award of Invitation to Bid
(“ITB”) No. 23-8155 “Eden Park Elementary Sidewalks
(LAP)” to Marquee Development, Inc., in the amount of
$1,314,943.50, approve Owner’s Allowance of $100,000,
authorize the Chairman to sign the attached Construction
Services Agreement, and authorize the necessary Budget
Amendment. (Companion Item to #16B3) (District 5)
5) This Item Continued from the February 13, 2024, BCC
Meeting. Recommendation to award Request for Professional
Services (“RPS”) No. 22-8015, “Professional Services for
Nearshore Biological Monitoring,” to CSA Ocean Sciences
Inc., and authorize the Chairman to sign the attached
Agreement. (All Districts)
6) Recommendation to authorize expenditures for the single-
source purchase, in an amount not to exceed $228,000, to
obtain Wetland Mitigation and Panther Habitat Units credits
from Panther Island Mitigation Bank Expansion, necessary for
permitting requirements for the construction of the 16th Street
Page 10
February 27, 2024
NE Bridge Project (#60212). (District 5)
7) Recommendation to approve an Interlocal Agreement with the
City of Naples for the construction of a partnership stormwater
and water utility project within the Big Cypress Golf and
Country Club Estates residential community. (All Districts)
8) Recommendation to approve an Agreement for the purchase of
a pond site (Parcels 278POND and 279POND) required for the
Wilson Boulevard (Golden Gate Boulevard to Immokalee
Road) Project (Project No. 60229). Estimated Fiscal Impact:
$602,000. (District 3, District 5)
9) Recommendation to approve and execute a Joint Participation
Agreement (JPA) #445296 between the State of Florida
Department of Transportation (FDOT) and Collier County in
the amount of $390,000 for the Pine Ridge Interchange
Landscape and Irrigation Relocation Project, authorize the
Chairman to sign a Resolution and authorize the necessary
Budget Amendments. (All Districts)
10) Recommendation to award Request for Professional Services
(“RPS”) No. 23-8082, “CEI Services for Vanderbilt Beach
Road from East of US-41 to East of Goodlette Frank Road
(Vanderbilt Beach Road 6 Lane Widening),” to Johnson
Engineering, Inc., for a total not to exceed amount of
$1,775,122.40, and authorize the Chair to sign the attached
Agreement (Project #60199). (District 2)
11) Recommendation to approve a work order with APTIM
Environmental & Infrastructure, Inc., to provide professional
engineering services for 2025-2026 Local Government Funding
Request under Contract No. 18-7432-CZ for time and material
not to exceed $27,010.00, authorize the Chairman to execute
the work order, and make a finding that this item promotes
tourism. (Fund 195, Project No. 90065) (District 2, District 4)
C. PUBLIC UTILITIES DEPARTMENT
1) Recommendation to award the Invitation to Bid (“ITB”) No.
Page 11
February 27, 2024
23-8168, “Latex Paint Collection and Recycling” to
EnviroServe, Inc., and authorize the Chairman to sign the
attached Services Agreement. (All Districts)
2) Recommendation that the Board approve Change Order No. 1,
for work associated with Work Directives Nos. 1, 5, and 7 at a
total cost of $880 utilizing the Owner’s Allowance and adding a
total of 153 days to Construction Agreement No. 22-7992R,
with Haskins Inc., for the Palm River Areas 1 and 2 Public
Utilities Renewal project and authorize the Chairman to sign
the attached Change Order No.1. (Project No. 70257 and
60234.1) (District 2)
D. PUBLIC SERVICES DEPARTMENT
1) Recommendation to terminate for cause Revenue Generating
Agreement No. 21-7854 for “Vending Machine Services,” with
Refreshing Florida LLC. (All Districts)
2) Recommendation to accept and appropriate three (3) restricted
donations from the Friends of the Library of Collier County,
Inc., to the Collier County Public Library, totaling $47,770.04
to provide funding for various library programs and projects,
and to authorize the necessary Budget Amendments. (All
Districts)
3) Recommendation to accept and appropriate restricted donations
from various donors in the amount of $37,695.50 for the benefit
of the Collier County Public Library and to authorize the
necessary Budget Amendments. (All Districts)
4) Recommendation to approve an Income Distribution from the
Harvey M. Shreve Jr. Irrevocable Trust Account in the amount
of $305,996.85 to the Collier County Public Library, to
authorize the County Manager, or his designee, to complete any
required forms, and to approve any necessary Budget
Amendments. (All Districts)
5) Recommendation to approve and authorize the Chairman to
execute a Memorandum of Understanding with the Dr. Piper
Page 12
February 27, 2024
Center for Social Services, Inc., to provide volunteer services
for the Parks and Recreation childcare programs for a three-
year term. (District 5)
E. CORPORATE BUSINESS OPERATIONS
1) Recommendation to 1) approve the sale and disposal of surplus
assets per Resolution No. 2013-095 via public auction on April
19, 2024; 2) accommodate requests for donations received from
other government entities or legitimate Florida Non-Profit
501(c)(3) organizations prior to the auction; and 3) authorize
the Procurement Director, as designee for the County Manager,
to sign for the transfer of vehicle titles as a result of the public
auction. (All Districts)
F. COUNTY MANAGER OPERATIONS
1) This Item Continued from the February 13, 2024, BCC
Meeting. Recommendation to award Invitation to Negotiate
(“ITN”) 23-8177 “Gasoline and Diesel Fuel Multi-Agency
Cooperative Purchase” to Palmdale Oil Company, LLC, and
authorize the Chairman to sign the attached Agreement. (All
Districts)
2) Recommendation to renew a Certificate of Public Convenience
and Necessity for a Class 2 ALS non-emergency inter-facility
ambulance transports to Just Like Family Concierge Medical
Transport Services (D.B.A. Brewster Ambulance Service) to
allow post-hospital inter-facility medical ambulance transfer
services. (All Districts)
3) Recommendation to renew the North Collier Fire Control and
Rescue District’s Certificate of Public Convenience and
Necessity for Advanced Life Support non-transport services for
one year and authorize the Chairman to execute the Permit and
Certificate. (All Districts)
4) Recommendation to approve administrative Change Order No.
5 for a 30-day time extension under Collier County Jail
Laundry Renovation Agreement No. 22-7959R with OneSource
Page 13
February 27, 2024
Construction Company & Builders, Inc. (Project No. 50185)
(District 1)
5) Recommendation to adopt a Resolution approving amendments
(appropriating grants, donations, contributions, or insurance
proceeds) to the Fiscal Year 2023-24 Adopted Budget. (The
Budget Amendments in the attached Resolution have been
reviewed and approved by the Board of County Commissioners
via separate Executive Summaries.) (All Districts) (28089)
6) Recommendation to approve Tourism Development Tax
Promotion funds to support the upcoming March 2024 Sports
Tourism Event, Trilogy Lacrosse, up to $10,000, and make a
finding that these expenditures promote tourism. (All Districts)
7) Recommendation to award Invitation to Bid (“ITB”) No. 23-
8138R, “Collier County Courthouse Cable Infrastructure
Rewiring,” to Chris-Tel Company of Southwest Florida, Inc.,
d/b/a Chris-Tel Construction, in the amount of $1,769,076.00,
approve Owner’s Allowance of $172,485, and authorize
necessary Budget Amendments and the Chairman to sign the
attached Construction Services Agreement. (District 4)
8) Recommendation to approve administratively approved Change
Orders No. 3, No. 4, and No. 5 adding 106 days to the project
schedule and $31,786.18 to Agreement No. 22-7960 with
Waypoint Contracting, Inc., for the Collier County Emergency
Service Center East Bay Enclosure, and authorize the Chairman
to sign the attached Change Orders. (Project No. 50390)
(District 1)
G. AIRPORT AUTHORITY
1) Recommendation that the Board of County Commissioners,
acting as the Airport Authority, authorize its chairman to
execute the attached Collier County Airport Authority Standard
Form Lease Agreement with Career Aviation Flight Training
and Aircraft Rental, Holding, LLC, for vacant aeronautical use
office space at the Marco Island Executive Airport. (District 1)
Page 14
February 27, 2024
2) Recommendation that the Board of County Commissioners,
acting as the Airport Authority, authorize its chairman to
execute the attached Collier County Airport Authority Standard
Form Lease Agreement with Career Aviation Flight Training
and Aircraft Rental, Holding, LLC, for vacant aeronautical use
office space at the Marco Island Executive Airport. (District 1)
H. BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
I. MISCELLANEOUS CORRESPONDENCE
J. OTHER CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICERS
1) To record in the minutes of the Board of County
Commissioners, the check number (or other payment method),
amount, payee, and purpose for which the referenced
disbursements in the amount of $31,467,796.81 were drawn for
the periods between February 1, 2024, and February 14, 2024,
pursuant to Florida Statute 136.06. (All Districts)
2) Request that the Board approve and determine valid public
purpose for invoices payable and purchasing card transactions
as of February 21, 2024. (All Districts)
3) Recommendation that the Board of County Commissioners
provide approval for the State of Florida E911 Board/E911
State Grant Program and for the Chairman to sign the grant
agreement. (All Districts)
K. COUNTY ATTORNEY
1) Recommendation to reappoint a member to the Contractors
Licensing Board. (District 4)
2) Recommendation to appoint two members to the Land
Acquisition Advisory Committee. (All Districts)
3) Recommendation to authorize the County Attorney to file a
lawsuit on behalf of the Collier County Board of County
Commissioners against Scott Commercial Contracting LLC,
Page 15
February 27, 2024
and any other responsible parties, for $23,949.52 in damages
caused to a 16-inch potable water main near the intersection of
Tamiami Trail North (U.S. 41), 107th Avenue North, and
Creekside Boulevard. (All Districts)
L. COMMUNITY REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY
1) Recommendation that the Board acting as the Community
Redevelopment Agency Board (CRAB) approve an After-the-
Fact electronic grant application submittal in the amount of
$1,200,000 to the Collier County Community and Human
Services FY 2024/2025 Housing and Urban Development
(HUD) Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) for the
First Street Pedestrian Safety Improvement Project within the
Immokalee Community Redevelopment Area. (District 5)
2) Recommendation that the Board acting in its capacity as the
Community Redevelopment Agency Board (CRAB) approve an
Economic Development Initiative (EDI) Community Project
Funding (CPF) Direct Deposit Sign-Up Form for a grant
agreement with the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban
Development (HUD) for the construction of the Immokalee
Sidewalk Phase III Project, and authorize the Chairman of the
BCC and/or the Co-Chairman of the CRA, as appropriate, to
sign the Direct Deposit Sign-Up Form. (District 5)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17. Summary Agenda - This section is for advertised public hearings and
must meet the following criteria: 1) A recommendation for approval
from staff; 2) Unanimous recommendation for approval by the Collier
County Planning Commission or other authorizing agencies of all
members present and voting; 3) No written or oral objections to the
item received by staff, the Collier County Planning Commission, other
authorizing agencies or the Board, prior to the commencement of the
BCC meeting on which the items are scheduled to be heard; and 4) No
individuals are registered to speak in opposition to the item. For those
items which are quasi-judicial in nature, all participants must be sworn
in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 16
February 27, 2024
A. This Item is being continued to the March 26, 2024, BCC Meeting.
Recommendation to adopt an Ordinance amending the Collier County
Land Development Code to clarify the regulations pertaining to
mobile homes located in the coastal high hazard area, to remove
duplicative floodplain protection regulations that are codified in the
Collier County Code of Laws of Ordinances or with the Florida
Building Code, and to update citations and correct scrivener's errors.
[PL20220005067 and PL20230014143] (All Districts)
B. Recommendation to adopt an Ordinance amending the Collier County
Land Development Code, to update the provisions related to wireless
communication facilities. [PL20230013966] (Second of two hearings)
(All Districts)
C. Recommendation to adopt an Ordinance amending the Collier County
Land Development Code to establish provisions for food truck parks
and mobile food dispensing vehicles. [PL20220006373] (First of two
hearings) (All Districts)
D. This item requires that Commission members provide ex-parte
disclosure. Should a hearing be held on this item, all participants
are required to be sworn in. Recommendation to approve a rezoning
ordinance amending Ordinance No. 2001-10, as amended, the Collier
Boulevard Mixed Use Commerce Center Planned Unit Development
(MPUD), to increase the maximum zoned height of two buildings on
Lot 2 from 50 feet to 55 feet near the southwest corner of Collier
Boulevard (C.R. 951) and Magnolia Pond Drive, in Section 34,
Township 49 South, Range 26 East, Collier County, Florida.
[PL20230010984] (District 3)
18. ADJOURN
INQUIRIES CONCERNING CHANGES TO THE BOARD’S AGENDA
SHOULD BE MADE TO THE COUNTY MANAGER’S OFFICE AT 252-
8383.
February 27, 2024
Page 2
MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Good morning, everybody. Welcome to
the Collier County Board of Commissioners meeting.
And as we get started this morning, I just want to remind you, if
you have not already silenced your cell phone, you might want to
consider that because we have implemented a new spotlight system
that if your phone goes off, wong (indicating). Not really, but it's a
good idea.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It is a good idea.
CHAIRMAN HALL: And I do want to remind you, if you plan
on public speaking this morning, we're going to love to hear
everything you have to say in three minutes. That little yellow light
will go off about the two minute and 30-second mark, and 30 seconds
later, the red light goes off. And when the red light goes off, the
plane lands. So I'll appreciate you remembering that.
And also, this is not emotional for us, so if you're agreeing with
the public speakers, just agree silently. Keep the clapping -- we
don't want to hear the clapping. We don't want to hear the negative
comments if you disagree. This is a professional meeting, and we're
going to run it that way.
So with that in mind, we'd like to welcome Pastor Grant
Thigpen to open us up in prayer.
Item #1A
INVOCATION AND PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE BY PASTOR
GRANT THIGPEN, NEW HOPE MINISTRIES - INVOCATION
GIVEN
PASTOR THIGPEN: Heavenly Father, we come into your
presence with thanksgiving this morning. Lord, I thank you for your
February 27, 2024
Page 3
great love, your mercy, your grace. Father, I just thank you for the
many enumerable blessings that you've given to us through the years.
I thank you that we are citizens of the United States of America,
we're citizens of the state of Florida, and we're citizens of Collier
County.
Today, Father, as our duly elected commissioners carry out their
duties, we just pray, Father God, that there would be a touch of your
grace, a touch of your mercy, and a touch of your wisdom, Lord, and
that every decision made here today, Father, will be pleasing in your
sight.
And at the end of the day, we'll give you the praise, we'll give
you the glory, and we give you the honor. In the name of Jesus,
amen.
CHAIRMAN HALL: If you would remain standing. I would
like to have Arthur Puck, age 95, to lead us in the Pledge of
Allegiance.
Now, the Pledge of Allegiance is not something that we do here
just as a habit. When you've served in the Marine Corps and in
World War II, the Pledge of Allegiance means something to you.
And as he leads this Pledge of Allegiance, I would like for us to
consider what we're saying and why we're saying it. This is a great
nation that we have, and we should honor it, and we do so here in the
commissioner meeting.
(The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.)
CHAIRMAN HALL: Mr. Puck, go ahead and take a few
minutes, if you want, sir.
MR. PUCK: I would like to just tell you a little bit about the
flag that's very interesting to us who have been in the Marine Corps.
February the 23rd, a few days ago, is the anniversary of raising
the flag on Mount Suribachi on Iwo Jima. 1945. Imagine if you
were fighting seeing all going on, and all of a sudden Old Glory was
February 27, 2024
Page 4
on top of the mountain, and you can say, "We're winning." I'm very
proud to be a part of the "We can do it" generation, the greatest
generation.
Thank you.
(Applause.)
Item #2A
APPROVE OF TODAY'S REGULAR, CONSENT AND
SUMMARY AGENDA AS AMENDED (EX PARTE
DISCLOSURE PROVIDED BY COMMISSION MEMBERS FOR
CONSENT AGENDA.) - MOTION TO APPROVE BY
COMMISSIONER MCDANIEL; SECONDED BY
COMMISSIONER LOCASTRO – APPROVED AND/OR
ADOPTED W/CHANGES
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, agenda changes for
February 27th, 2024. First we have move Agenda Item 17C to 9D.
This is a recommendation to adopt an ordinance amending the Collier
County Land Development Code to establish provisions for food
truck parks and mobile food dispensing vehicles. This is the first of
two separate hearings. This is being moved at each commissioner's
separate request.
Next, continue Item 12A to a future board meeting. This is a
recommendation that the Board authorizes staff to prepare an
amendment to the Growth Management Plan resulting from a
mediation concerning a July 28th, 2010, developer agreement
involving the Randall Boulevard commercial subdistrict and
authorize staff to engage a transportation engineer in order to
complete the county's portion of a Transportation Impact Statement
required for the amendment. This is being continued at the
February 27, 2024
Page 5
developer's request.
We have a correction to Item 16B7. Fourth paragraph, last
sentence of the consideration should read, "This work will be
included in the budget for consideration in Fiscal Year 2025."
We have two time-certain items today. Item 10A to be heard at
9:30 a.m.; this is consideration to schedule a referendum on returning
to at-large commission districts being brought to the agenda by
Commissioner Saunders. And Item 8A to be heard no sooner than
10 a.m.; This is the Lakewood Golf Course "neighborhood fitness
and community center" Official Interpretation.
We have court reporter breaks scheduled for 10:30 and at 2:50.
With that, County Attorney, any changes?
MR. KLATZKOW: No, thank you.
MS. PATTERSON: Chair, any change -- further changes or
ex -- and/or ex parte?
CHAIRMAN HALL: Let's see. Ex parte for the consent and
summary agenda, Commissioner Kowal.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I have no changes and no
disclosures.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Just two things. First of all, I have no changes and no
disclosure, but on the item that I have that's scheduled for 9:30, it's
not a recommendation that we go to countywide elections. It's a
recommendation that we consider taking a look at it and having a
group evaluate. So I just want the audience to understand that it's
not a --
MS. PATTERSON: Yes, sir, apologies.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: It's not a motion to move
forward on single-member districts --
MS. PATTERSON: Understood.
February 27, 2024
Page 6
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- or countywide districts.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: No changes and no ex parte,
sir.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Same for me; no changes, no
ex parte.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Same for me; I have no changes, no ex
parte.
MS. PATTERSON: Thank you.
Item 2A is the approval of today's regular, consent, and
summary agenda as amended.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: So moved.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Second.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All in favor of the agenda as it is, say
aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All opposed, none.
SEE REVERSE SIDE
Proposed Agenda Changes
Board of County Commissioners Meeting
February 27, 2024
Move Item 17C to 9D: Recommendation to adopt an Ordinance amending the Collier County Land Development
Code to establish provisions for food truck parks and mobile food dispensing vehicles. [PL20220006373] (First of
two hearings) (Commissioner LoCastro, Commissioner Saunders, Commissioner McDaniel, and Commissioner
Kowal’s Separate Requests)
Continue 12A to a future Board Meeting: Recommendation that the Board authorizes staff to prepare an
amendment to the Growth Management Plan resulting from a mediation concerning a July 28, 2010, Developer
Agreement involving the Randall Boulevard Commercial Subdistrict, and authorize staff to engage a transportation
engineer in order to complete the County’s portion of a Transportation Impact Statement required for the
Amendment. (Developer’s Request)
Notes:
Correction to item 16B7: Fourth paragraph, last sentence of the Considerations should read: This work is will be
included in the budget, for consideration, budgeted for in fiscal year 2025.
TIME CERTAIN ITEMS:
Item 10A to be heard at 9:30 AM: Consideration to schedule a referendum on returning to at-large commission
districts.
Item 8A to be heard no sooner than 10 AM: Lakewood Golf Course “neighborhood fitness and community
center” Official Use Interpretation.
3/12/2024 3:58 PM
February 27, 2024
Page 7
Item #2B
OCTOBER 10, 2023, BCC MINUTES - MOTION TO APPROVE
AS PRESENTED BY COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS;
SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER LOCASTRO – APPROVED
Item #2C
FEBRUARY 6, 2024, BCC WORKSHOP MINUTES - MOTION TO
APPROVE AS PRESENTED BY COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS;
SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER LOCASTRO – APPROVED
MS. PATTERSON: Item 2B and Item 2C are minutes from the
October 10th, 2023, BCC and the February 6th, 2024, Board
workshop.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Chairman, if there are
no comments or corrections, I'll make a motion to approve both 2B
and 2C, the minutes from October 10th and the minutes from
February 6th.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Second.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All right. Motion and second. All in
favor, say aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All opposed?
(No response.)
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, that brings us to Item 3,
awards and recognitions. We have several today.
February 27, 2024
Page 8
Item #3A1
AWARDS AND RECOGNITIONS – 20 YEAR ATTENDEES -
PRESENTED
I'll start with Item 3A1, the 20-year attendees. First we have Joseph
Olivier, information technology, 20 years. Congratulations.
(Applause.)
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: That's a good job, Maria.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Rookie chair.
MR. OLIVIER: Thank you.
(Applause.)
MS. PATTERSON: Christopher Ambach, Code Enforcement,
20 years. Congratulations.
(Applause.)
MS. PATTERSON: Anthony Dimeglio, Water, 20 years.
Congratulations.
(Applause.)
Item #3A2
AWARDS AND RECOGNITIONS – 25 YEAR ATTENDEES -
PRESENTED
MS. PATTERSON: Moving on to 3A2, 25-year attendees,
Andrew Brown, Information Technology, 25 years.
(Applause.)
MS. PATTERSON: Annmarie Mitchell, Parks and Recreation,
25 years.
(Applause.)
MS. PATTERSON: Jorge Lazo, Wastewater, 25 years.
February 27, 2024
Page 9
Congratulations.
(Applause.)
Item #3A4
AWARDS AND RECOGNITIONS – 35 YEAR ATTENDEE –
PRESENTED
MS. PATTERSON: Item 3A4, 35-year attendees: Rudy Luna,
Water, 35 years. Congratulations.
(Applause.)
MS. PATTERSON: Maria, let's get the Public Utilities folks up
with him. Public Utilities representatives, if you want to come up,
let's get you a picture. Thirty-five years is a big deal.
MR. LUNA: Tomorrow my last day. I'm retiring tomorrow.
(Applause.)
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: This is your last chance.
Rudy's the guy who knows a guy, you know what I'm saying?
(Applause.)
Item #7
PUBLIC COMMENTS ON GENERAL TOPICS NOT ON THE
CURRENT OR FUTURE AGENDA
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, that brings us to Item 7,
general topics not on the current or future agenda.
Troy.
MR. MILLER: Yes, ma'am. We have nine registered
individuals on this item. I'm going to ask the folks to queue up at
both podiums.
February 27, 2024
Page 10
Your first speaker is Laurie Harris. She will be followed by
Randy -- well, I'm sorry. They've submitted a slip to cede time. We
don't cede time to Item 7, so she'll be followed by Dr. J.B. Holmes.
MS. HARRIS: Tell me when.
MR. MILLER: Pull your mic down. When you're ready.
MS. HARRIS: Okay. I am here today to discuss Domestic
Animal Services and the advisory board. I'd like to start by thanking
Commissioner Saunders for coming to the January advisory board
meeting and offering his support and to Commissioners McDaniel
and Kowal for patiently listening to me last evening regarding DAS
and the advisory board.
At the meeting, Commissioner Saunders told Jim Rich, the
advisory board chairman, that now would be the time to present to
the commission for budgeting requirements, ordinance review, et
cetera, to have effective animal control.
The advisory board's purview is to, and I quote, to make
recommendations to the Board of County Commissioners on
programs, services, classes and special events that will further assist
Collier County Domestic Animal Services in providing the best
possible service to the community.
A public records request for the last five years shows the
advisory board has not made a single recommendation to the Board
of County Commissioners. Since the advisory board has not
presented to the Commission in the past, I am not anticipating they
present to you in the future.
The advisory board is made up of volunteers, and I thank them
for signing up to help DAS; however, the board has reduced their
meetings from 12 times a year to four times a year, all but admitting
they are worthless.
Chairman Rich said to me, Marcy does everything herself, so
there is little for the advisory board to do. Since the meetings are
February 27, 2024
Page 11
every three months, no one remembers what was said three months
ago, and if you haven't discussed something in three months, is it
really something you need to bring up again?
The minutes are not put online to review for three months, and
the meetings aren't recorded. The advisory board either needs to be
dissolved, changed to the ordinance to make them just advisors to the
director of DAS, or have them do their job they signed up to do, and
that's to present to the Board of County Commissioners.
The commissioners -- to the commissioners elected after '21, a
new $6 million facility was approved by the prior commission, and a
contract was signed with ADG Architecture for $578,000 to draw up
plans for a new building. This was all due to the explosive growth
happening in Collier County. While the county population has
grown exponentially, the new facility was canceled, and DAS
remains virtually unchanged from 1997 when it was built.
Since the new facility has been canceled, renovations are
occurring at the current facility. The construction in Building 3 is so
poor, it must be redone. The material for the kennel doors is so
inferior, I can bend it with my hands. Here is proof. I went to bend
this back since it was sticking straight out, and it broke off in my
hand. The latches are broken, and since the doors open out, the
kennels -- dogs are able to escape. This leads to dog fights, which
leads to dogs being put down.
Animals and people have already been hurt by the construction,
and are taxpayers going to pay for the renovations, or is the original
contractor?
An X-ray machine was donated years ago, still not in use since it
won't fit in the current space. I am running out of time.
I will jump to the end. There was a prisoner program. Will
that be brought back? Will DAS go back to being open every day
from 10 to 6 in the 2025 budgeting? Will the original contractor pay
February 27, 2024
Page 12
for renovations to Building 3, or taxpayers? Why is private funding
being used to upgrade the yards and not the county? Why was a new
facility canceled? What happens to the down payment to the
architectural company? Why aren't the funds set aside for the new
building? What happens to the 6 million?
I know I presented a lot of information in a tight time, and I will
take minutes -- questions from the Commission, and you're not
required [sic] to three minutes.
There's a lot of stuff I didn't get to. I was supposed to be ceded
Randy's time, so...
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: We'll get back to you.
MS. HARRIS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Like we told you last night.
MS. HARRIS: Okay. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Dr. J.B. Holmes, and he
will be followed by Garret FX Beyrent.
DR. HOLMES: Good morning, Commissioners, Chairman
Hall. My name is Holmes, Dr. J.B. Holmes.
I'm here today to speak with you. I thank you for having me
here today, number one, but I'm here to speak to you today about the
VA nursing home proposed for the Golden Gate -- Golden Gate Golf
Course properties.
First, a moment of business. I'd like to invite all of the
commissioners to the Vietnam Veterans Day ceremony at the Golden
Gate VFW post on March 29th; Friday, March 29th.
But going on to the VA nursing home, I have -- I represent many
of the veterans in the county. I'll be -- following this meeting, I'll be
going over and meeting with the Marine Corps league and VFW later
in the day.
I've received a lot of different information on this subject. I
February 27, 2024
Page 13
called Senator Passidomo. Senator Passidomo advised me this
request for funding was with the Healthcare Appropriations
Subcommittee in the House with Legislator Melo. I called -- I
contacted Lauren Melo's office. She said it was with the Senate, and
they were waiting to put it in the budget, the request for $70 million.
I've had three informal meetings with Commissioner Saunders,
which I thank you very much, Commissioner Saunders, very informal
meetings. I would like to request formal meetings so we can get the
exact facts so when I'm speaking in the community to veterans, I can
have accurate information to portray to them, because this is very,
very important to the veterans in our community.
I believe Collier County has the largest number of veterans in
the state of Florida with 30 million [sic] veterans.
So I would just like to -- I have plenty of time. I'd just like to
confirm that process and know exactly where the appropriations
committee's request is in our state legislature.
I thank you, everyone, for your time this morning. I look
forward to meeting with you, particularly, Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Chairman, if I might.
I believe this is going to be a fairly short meeting, and so I'm
going to be available all afternoon. So I would suggest, since you're
here, or if you can come back in a couple hours, I'll give you a full
update, and then on county communications, I was planning on
giving the Board an update on where things are. So that probably
will be before lunch today, and then we can meet afterwards.
DR. HOLMES: Okay. Can you give me an exact time,
Commissioner? I'll be happy to join you.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, I don't know when this
meeting's going to end, so I can't give you an exact time, but I
think -- I think we'll finish before lunch.
DR. HOLMES: Okay. I'll get back with you.
February 27, 2024
Page 14
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: And I'm going to be in the
office all afternoon, so just come back whenever you get an
opportunity to come back.
DR. HOLMES: Very good. Thank you, sir.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: And, Dr. Holmes, I would
just say, when you get the latest from Commissioner
Saunders -- because when we had talked -- he's been running shotgun
on this, just came back from Tallahassee -- whatever you
get -- because I'm getting some of the same questions from our fellow
veterans -- anything you can do to get that word out through your
VFW channels to separate rumor from fact.
So I have some of those similar questions as well.
Commissioner Saunders updated us at our last meeting, but he might
have something further. So, you know, we'll look for something
either in your -- one of your e-mail blasts, and then I'll piggyback on
that as well from my veteran group, and hopefully between the two of
us and Commissioner Saunders and the other commissioners, we'll
sort of attack it from all ends so that there's -- we separate rumor
from fact.
DR. HOLMES: Yes, I would appreciate that.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Thank you for coming today,
sir.
DR. HOLMES: I'll get with you, Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I will do a complete full -- a
written report that you'll have --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: That we can copy.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- sometime this week, for
sure, in terms of that. But we'll meet this afternoon.
DR. HOLMES: Very good. Thank you, sir.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Garret FX Beyrent, and he
will be followed by Robert Thurston.
February 27, 2024
Page 15
MR. BEYRENT: I need your fluoroscope.
For the record, I'm Garret FX Beyrent. I always have been, and
I'll probably be until I'm dead.
But in any case, this is -- 25 years ago, I appeared before the
County Commission. This is a formula I formulated and, basically,
it's a solution to the problems we've got with our children today and
our grandchildren ad infinitum. But I can't read that. Could you
read that for me? Can you?
MS. PATTERSON: I have to take it off.
MR. BEYRENT: Oh, yeah.
MS. PATTERSON: It's a Letter of the Day, dated May 6th,
1999, Beyond Rocket Science. Editor, Naples Daily News.
While Einstein's theory was relative to the explosive era we call
the 20th Century, it appears that given the recent school slaughters,
the millennium will be ushering in the new theory of reality.
The formula is as follows: K+G(VM)-P=D. That is kids plus
guns multiplied by violence in movies minus parents equals death.
Adding the P, however, will radically alter this formula and could
even diffuse this reaction. Garret FX Beyrent.
MR. BEYRENT: Thank you very much. I just -- on a little
note, my job during the war in Vietnam was actually to protect the
City of New York from incoming MiG jets. I can say this now
because it's past the statute of limitations on whether I can go to
prison again.
But long and short is that our job was to guard the Empire State
Building from MiG jets coming in at the end of the war in Vietnam,
just at the Tet Offensive. And you know what Tricky Dick did with
that. So long and short, thank you for letting me speak my peace.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Robert Thurston, and he
will be followed by Jackie Keay.
MR. THUSTON: In the last couple of board meetings, I've
February 27, 2024
Page 16
identified San Diego base Navy SEAL John Richard Smith as the
main driver, the main orchestrater of my 14 years of illegal targeting
and in earlier presentations unconstitutional Sheriff Kevin Rambosk
as his deep state man on the ground here in Naples.
The truth is Navy SEAL John Smith has blood on his hands as
one of the highest level administrators of the Targeted Individual
Program. The blood on Smith's hands belongs to other Americans
he killed, drove to suicide, or unjust imprisonment or
institutionalization through his treasonous acts.
How does one live with one's self knowing it was because of
your specific actions other law-abiding Americans died? Smith is a
sadist who enjoys others' pain. The Naples community deserves to
know there are evil people in our midst masquerading as heroes.
So just who are Smith's victims? What are their names? These
people are human beings. All we can do is pull the thread and see
what unravels.
I'd like you to do a quick Google search on Myron May, Aaron
Alexis, Gavin Long, and Jiverly Wong. These men are known in the
targeted individual community. May and Long had no arrest record,
and Alexis had only two minor arrests he got in the last year of his
life. Each went on shooting rampages.
I don't claim to know them, and I suppose anything is possible,
but their videos, their online complaints echo many of the things I
experience firsthand, things I have discussed here previously and
other things I haven't yet spoken about.
I'd like to narrow the focus of this presentation down in our
remaining time to one of them. Myron May. May was an attorney
who was shot 24 times and killed by police when he inexplicably
went into the Florida State University library on November 14, 2014,
and shot three people. In the months leading up to his death, May
had posted about filing a targeted individual class action lawsuit for
February 27, 2024
Page 17
many others.
If you could, I'd like you to do a two-step Google search for first
Myron May's final writings. Another page opens up, comes up that
has a police report link. Click on that. I hope you will spend some
time after I speak reading this important report.
What becomes clear, to me at least, is we have a relatively small
percentage of really bad people hiding in our military, our police, and
our EMTs who are able to victimize some of our law-abiding
American citizenry. No single person is willing to call these people
out. To do so in our culture is considered unpatriotic, and that
whistleblower can expect to be ostracized. I think it's unpatriotic to
say nothing about this knowing now for certain it's going on.
Given enough pressure over days, weeks, months, and years,
many targeted individuals will snap. Sometimes these targets slash
out and harm innocent people, as was the case with May, Long,
Alexis, and Wong.
So you have the taxpayer funding the perversions of Smith,
Rambosk, and others who torture the target who sometimes turn
around and attack other innocent civilians. And the whistleblower is
the villain in this upside-down clown world we live in. The ultimate
tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the
silence over that by the good people.
Please have a look, if you will, at my online link at
targetedindividual4.wordpress.com. Again, that's
targetedindividual4.wordpress.com.
I want to take a second to acknowledge the courageous
contributions to freedom made by Julian Assange and Alexei
Navalny. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Jackie Keay. She will be
followed by Yvette Hazel.
MS. KEAY: Good morning. Jackie Keay.
February 27, 2024
Page 18
Satan is known as the original narcissist. To paraphrase Isaiah
14:12 through 14, Satan said he would raise his throne above the
throne of God and that he would make himself like God. In his
arrogance and aggression, Satan turned many angels against God and
waged war against the most high. Satan and his demons lost that
war and were cast out of heaven.
Narcissists have been around since the beginning of time
because of Satan. The first act of narcissism in humanity took place
when Satan convinced Adam and Eve to disobey God in the Garden
of Eden.
The second act of narcissism happened when Cain murdered his
brother Abel because of envy, and he lied to God about it.
Narcissists are showcased throughout the Bible to include Queen
Jezebel, Kings Ahab, various kings, and especially the Pharisees who
were religious leaders and teachers. These Pharisees plotted against
and led to the murder of Christ himself. As you can see, Satan has
occupied a narcissistic stronghold in humanity and religion since the
beginning of time.
In an end-time warning in 2 Timothy 3, 1 through 5, Jesus tells
us to avoid and have nothing to do with people who are lovers of self,
arrogant, heartless, unholy, lack self-control, are corrupt, don't love
what is good, and having the appearances of Godliness but denying
its power. This is because such people are highly toxic, narcissistic,
and destructive. Many are, in fact, religious narcissists due to being
self-righteous, judgmental, radical, and making themselves out to be
gods.
Religious narcissists often feel entitled to special treatment from
other people because they believe they are superior due to religious
belief. Likewise, they take pleasure in dominating, controlling, and
manipulating people through their religion. They are deceitful,
pathological liars, and their actions show them to be more anti-Christ.
February 27, 2024
Page 19
For good reason, in John 8:44, Jesus told the narcissistic
Pharisees that they belong to their father, the devil, and that they want
to carry out his desires.
Again, religious narcissists are evil like their father, the devil,
who came to steal, kill, and destroy. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Yvette Hazel, and she will
be followed by Ewa Front.
MS. HAZEL: Good morning, everyone. I was asked to come
here this morning to speak on behalf of the homelessness of veterans
in Collier County. I am a veteran, Marine Corps. And thanks to
Veterans Homes, I was provided affordable housing here in Collier.
And without them, I couldn't do it. So I'm just here to speak on
other veterans. Please provide whatever you can for them. Thank
you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Ewa Front, and she will
be followed by Manny Touron.
MS. FRONT: Good morning, everyone. First of all, I wanted
to thank you to our county leadership for being open to the dialogue
with residents regarding improving the operation of Domestic Animal
Services: Ms. Amy Patterson, Mr. Daniel Rodriguez, Ms. Tanya
Williams, Mr. Alberto Rodriguez, and Ms. Marcy Perry. It is such
an encouraging experience to see my county officials taking public
concerns seriously, welcoming suggestions, and working together in
addressing the presented challenges.
I'm also thrilled about the idea of reinstating the trap, neuter, and
release program into our community given that -- given that three out
of every five animals entering our shelters are cats.
Today, I have a big ask to our County Commissioners regarding
Domestic Animal Services Advisory Board in the functions, powers,
and duties. It is to make recommendations to the Board of County
Commissioners on programs, services, classes, and specific -- special
February 27, 2024
Page 20
events that will further assist Collier County Domestic Animal
Services in providing the best possible services to our community.
There were so many brilliant ideas exchanged during Domestic
Animal Services Advisory Board meetings, and I was surprised to
learn through a public record request that none of them are placed in
one coherent document guiding our commissioners and helping our
residents appreciate the importance of this committee. I'm not
saying that such recommendations were never made. It is, however,
impossible for the public to find such a document.
Please amend the ordinance so after each advisory board
meeting a simple document with recommendations would be attached
to the meeting minutes. It will be easy for the public to find
documents and appreciate what was being discussed and
recommended for the future as an improvement.
In closing, the animal services advisory board has three seats
expiring in April in the categories of Humane Society representative,
veterinarian, and -- or vet tech, and at-large member. I understand
there are several highly qualified new candidates for these positions
and believe that it would be beneficial to bring new members with a
fresh perspective and ideas to this important advisory board serving
our community.
MR. MILLER: Your final -- you were through?
MS. FRONT: So I'm done. Thank you for your attention.
MR. MILLER: Your final registered public speaker is Manny
Touron.
MR. TOURON: Good morning. My name is Manny Touron,
and I represent the Soccer Pit Cobras of Immokalee. I've worked in
Immokalee for over 30 years, and in the 30 years there have been no
renovations to the fields where our kids play.
The need for fields in Immokalee have been on the county's
capital project for the last 15 years. Three years ago we started
February 27, 2024
Page 21
asking the county to fix one field.
Last year, the plans were drawn up, and it looked as though the
Immokalee Sports Complex was going to finally be renovated:
Fields, pool, and interior. Then last fall, poof, the money is no
longer available for this project. What started out as a renovation of
a single field had mushroomed into something that you didn't feel
that the taxpayers had an appetite for.
The people of Immokalee feel let down by the BOCC and the
Collier County Government, and Commissioner McDaniel heard that
loud and clear last Wednesday night. And it's not just about the
fields. They feel like second-class citizens. They can see the
disparity between facilities in Immokalee and facilities in other parts
of the county.
The question now is, what are you going to deliver and when?
What is being done with the dollars originally earmarked for
renovating a couple fields? I know that there are options being
explored, but as Commissioner McDaniel stated last Wednesday,
none of them will be ready in the short-term. One solution could be
ready short-term that would show Immokalee some good faith is the
RCMA land on Lake Trafford Road. My understanding is that the
land is engineered, and RCMA wants to sell it to the county for
development of fields.
I want to leave you with this thought. Our kids in Immokalee,
they play at Paradise Coast. They play at North Collier Regional.
They play games at Big Corkscrew. How do you answer a kid when
he or she asks on the way back from these games, "Coach, why don't
we have field like that in our town? Don't they care about us?" I
hear that from kids over and over again. Will their question ever be
answered?
Thank you so much for your time this morning.
(Applause.)
February 27, 2024
Page 22
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: No, I had a question for the
County Manager, but I appreciate your comments, sir.
Ms. Patterson, concerning DAS, I just wanted to get some
clarification from you that might educate all of us.
We've brought up issues before about having the DAS director
and maybe the board chair come in here more regularly to brief us. I
mean, I don't know how much stronger we have to say that. I mean,
like Commissioner Saunders and maybe all the commissioners, I've
gone to those board meetings. When I heard they went from
monthly to quarterly, geez, I mean, everything we chair, you know,
almost everything is a monthly meeting, and with DAS being so
important going to quarterly -- so is that something that it
would -- the most appropriate thing would just be to add it to our next
meeting agenda, DAS update, DAS something? What would be
your recommendation of the best way to spotlight it, and we can all
ask, you know, some pretty strong questions that we all have?
Instead of doing it sort of informally like we're doing now. Like, I
shot a note to Marcy about something, one of the other
commissioners probably did, but to get it under the umbrella here.
Because it obviously needs some focus. And we've said it before
that this room is available for any director, and a lot of them take
advantage of it. Sheriff Rambosk is in here regularly briefing us.
What's your recommendation?
MS. PATTERSON: We can certainly come back either at the
next meeting or the following, because there are a number of
questions that were put on the record by the speakers, I think, that we
need to address relative to the renovation, to the advisory committee,
to the meetings, to concerns in DAS. That would probably be the
most appropriate thing is just to bring an overall update: Talk to you
about the veterinarian coming on board, the really great news about
the declining population at DAS, and all of the great work that
February 27, 2024
Page 23
they've done to move animals around and find them homes.
So as much positive as it is questions, and we'll do that, and that
way that gives you a way to ask additional questions as well as
members of the public.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Okay. I'll trade some notes
with you, and I'm sure the other commissioners might as well. But if
we put it on the agenda, then citizens will see that, and we'll make
sure that, you know, we get their presence as well to, you know,
make sure that we're not just sitting here touting all the great,
wonderful things, but we're trying to make DAS better, but -- so
I'll -- you know, that's going to be my recommendation is to put
something formal on our next BCC agenda and for citizens to know
about it --
MS. PATTERSON: Yep, sure.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: -- and we do a deep dive here
rather than just sort of trading notes back and forth and that sort of
thing.
MS. PATTERSON: So let's look at one of the two meetings in
March just depending on -- the volume of questions and topics would
determine whether the next meeting or the following meeting would
be appropriate, and we'll make sure that we break it up, because
we've got advisory committee, care of animals --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Right.
STPHAO: -- shelter renovations, code enforcement/animal
control officer. We'll give a little bit of an update on each one of
those and leave some space as well. Commissioners that have
specific topics that they want, we'll work with you on those.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Perfect. Thank you.
MS. PATTERSON: You're welcome.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah. Tanya, are you
February 27, 2024
Page 24
coming up to speak about DAS or Manny? Which one?
MS. WILLIAMS: If you'd like to start with DAS.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay.
MS. WILLIAMS: Just very quickly, for the record, Tanya
Williams, Public Services department head.
In regards to the advisory board meetings, they had -- we had
scaled back the number of them per year. I will let you know that
starting with last week's meeting, you will start seeing those back on
a monthly basis.
We had a really great meeting with the members, the advisory
board members, as well as public comments last Tuesday, and I'm
going to aggressively be working with the information that was
garnered out of that meeting and challenge the advisory board
members to roll up their sleeves and let's get to work.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Is the venue -- does the venue
have the capacity for recordation and/or -- and/or hybrid?
MS. WILLIAMS: We will get with Troy, because Domestic
Animal Services Advisory Committee actually meets in these
chambers, so I'll work with Troy on that, yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And I'm not giving direction
today, but there's no reason for [sic] recordation, minimumly,
and/or -- and/or hybrid meeting to allow people to participate
remotely. So there's no reason for that, not in today's technology,
so...
MS. WILLIAMS: Understood.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And my comment -- Manny,
your discussion there was a large part of my one-on-one with senior
staff yesterday. So we will have a written timeline as to the plans,
short term, long term, what's going on, and I'll have that to you within
less than a week, okay? Just -- I wanted you -- I was listening.
MR. TOURON: Okay.
February 27, 2024
Page 25
CHAIRMAN HALL: County Manager.
Item #10A
THE BOARD CONSIDER SCHEDULING A REFERENDUM ON
RETURNING TO AT-LARGE COMMISSION DISTRICTS,
WHEREIN EACH COMMISSIONER WOULD RESIDE IN ONE
OF THE FIVE COMMISSION DISTRICTS BUT WOULD BE
ELECTED IN A COUNTY-WIDE VOTE. (ALL DISTRICTS)
DISCUSSED; MOTION TO HAVE THE PRODUCTIVITY
COMMITTEE TAKE 90 TO 120 DAYS TO CONDUCT A STUDY
W/PROS AND CONS FOR THE BCC BY COMMISSIONER
SAUNDERS; SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER MCDANIEL –
FAILED 2/3 (COMMISSIONER MCDANIEL, COMMISSIONER
HALL, AND COMMISSIONER KOWAL OPPOSED)
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, that brings us to our 9:30
time-certain item, and that is Item 10A. This is a request that the
Board consider scheduling a referendum on returning to at-large
commission districts wherein each commissioner would reside in one
of the five commission districts but would be elected in a countywide
vote. And this item is brought to the agenda by Commissioner
Saunders.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Please proceed, sir.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
A couple things. First, I will reiterate that the request is for the
Board to refer this issue to one of our advisory boards, such as the
Productivity Committee, to do a -- using Commissioner LoCastro's
terminology -- a deep dive into the issue. It's not a very complex
issue, and I think 60 to 90 days of review by a committee could result
in some very important information for the Board to consider and
February 27, 2024
Page 26
then for the Board to take that information and decide whether or not
to schedule a referendum on the issue.
If the referendum was to be scheduled, it would have to be done
before August 20th of this year, and there could be an election in
November of this year.
So, again, the request isn't to schedule anything. The request is
to take a deep dive into the issue and see what is best for the future of
the county. I'm not talking about what's best for the county over the
next two years or eight years, but the long-term future of the county.
We have a rapidly growing county, as everybody knows. The
demographics have changed dramatically since 1988 when this issue
was first considered. The population has quadrupled since that time.
And in my dialogue with a lot of community organizations over
meetings that I've had over the last six months, there's been a lot of
interest in evaluating it. I'll give you one example. The League of
Women Voters, as an example, advised me through -- some of their
representatives have advised me they didn't know whether this was a
good idea, a bad idea, but they thought it would be a great thing for
the county to at least take a look at. That's all I'm asking for. I'm
not asking for any decisions to be made but just to take a look at it. I
think it's a healthy exercise.
I want to read something from a letter from Rae Ann Burton. I
know she's here, and she's probably going to read the same letter.
But there's a part of it that I think is really kind of important, because
there's a lot of confusion about the different alternatives for
structuring county government.
One of the alternatives is single -- commissioners that live in a
single-member district -- in a single district but run countywide.
That was the process that Collier County had going up to 1988. So
all the years that the county was in existence until 1988, they had
countywide elections. Now, what that embodies is commissioners
February 27, 2024
Page 27
living in a particular district. You still have the same district
boundaries that you have now. They may be altered a little bit after
a census count every 10 years but basically equal population districts
as they exist today, but you have commissioners that are accountable
to everybody in every district. And so this letter, I think, embodies
the confusion of this.
Rae Ann says: Feel that this will be a disaster for Rural Estates,
as it will not be just the Estates making decisions; that 70 percent of
the population has no idea nor do they care what happens in the
Estates as long as it stays in the Estates. This will destroy the quality
of life for the residents that actually live in the Estates.
And this is the part that I think is really interesting. There is
already at least four BCC members that do not live in the Estates and,
therefore, cannot appreciate or have the same values and concerns of
those that do. Please do not approve.
Well, I think she's under the misconception that if we went to
countywide elections, there wouldn't necessarily be a commissioner
resident in District 5, but there would always be a resident in District
5, and that resident commissioner would always look out for the
interests of that person's home district, but the people living in that
district would have an opportunity -- a stronger opportunity to meet
with the other four commissioners to get their views and perhaps
have them understand the issues and be more concerned about it.
So it gives the voters, potentially -- if the Board went that way
and the voters went that way, that would give the voters the ability to
have a much greater impact on all five county commissioners as
opposed to just the one commissioner living within the district.
I pointed out in my summary of this request that one of the
major reasons for going to single-member districts over the years has
been to encourage and facilitate minority representation. Now, since
1988, I don't know how many minorities have run for the county
February 27, 2024
Page 28
commission, but you can obviously see from the makeup of this
board, that that hasn't worked out very well.
The estimate is that there are approximately 4 percent black
voters in Collier County spread out through the county. There are
approximately 24, 25 percent Hispanic voters. That number is going
to increase, but all spread out throughout the county.
So as a voting block, there's no way that a minority can elect a
county commissioner from a particular district based on just the racial
and ethnic composition of the districts. But if all those minorities
throughout the county were behind a particular candidate, they would
have much greater voting strength. So I think that's an issue that
needs to be evaluated, but I don't think it's a compelling issue
necessarily as we go forward.
So what I am proposing -- and I know we've got a few speakers.
What I'm proposing is that the Board simply take a look at this and
decide not, again, what is in the best interest of the county for the
next five years or six years or 10 years, but for the next 50 years what
is the best way to be governed.
There are three different structures of county government in
Florida. One is what we have today, a commissioner resident in a
single-member district and only the residents and voters in that
district can vote for that commissioner. The other four districts have
no say in who that commissioner is, but that commissioner would still
be accountable to his or her district.
The second is individual commissioners living within a district,
just like today, only running countywide. I believe that that type of
structure would make commissioners more accountable for the entire
county and make better decisions.
We heard just a little while ago about the folks in Immokalee
think they're being ignored. Well, maybe with a countywide
election, maybe they would have a bigger voice with all five
February 27, 2024
Page 29
commissioners. I'm not saying they don't have a voice with all five
commissioners, but I'm just using that as an example of they feel
disenfranchised, and maybe this would eliminate that feeling.
Because I know Commissioner McDaniel works very hard for
District 5, as we all do. But I think that if District 5 voters were
voting for each one of us, that we would be more accountable to
District 5.
The third is having five commissioners living within a
single-member district and then -- and being voted by residents in
those single-member districts but having two commissioners that run
at large. That's just a hybrid of the two systems.
So those are the three structures that you can basically have if
you're a non-charter county like Collier County. And, again, all I'm
asking is that we just take a look at it. No harm in evaluating those
different structures for the long-term future.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Mr. Miller.
MR. MILLER: Yes. Mr. Chairman, we have 14 registered
speakers for this item. Again, I will remind the speakers to please
use both podiums. Your first speaker is Keith Flaugh. He will be
followed by Diane Preston Moore.
MR. FLAUGH: Good morning, Commissioners.
Keith Flaugh, on Marco Island.
I urge you to not fund this study, to not support this study to
change from a single-member district to districts at large. The
makeup of our county has certainly changed, and it's still very
different demographics district by district.
With the current structure, you are elected by those in your
district and, therefore, they deserve your representation.
The rest of you have plenty of opportunity to meet with folks
outside your district. And so to shift to an at-large Board of County
February 27, 2024
Page 30
Commission structure, in my opinion, aids and abets special interests
and the elites who will pour excessive money into a race to gain your
support.
It is also much more costly to run an at-large, as I'm sure each of
you recognize, which further invites the special interests.
Direct representation is a major plus of today's structure. If it
ain't broke, don't fix it.
With the hard work you have in front of you on the zero-based
budgeting, to spend any money and time on this issue, in my opinion,
is not justified.
I urge you to engage in -- to not engage in this study. By the
way, while it's not in your lane, the school district should be
relooking at going to the same structure you have today, and that's
proof positive. Just look at what's going on there.
So, again, I urge you not to support this study. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Diane Preston Moore.
She'll be followed by Jackie Keay.
MS. PRESTON MOORE: Good morning, Commissioners.
My name is Diane Preston Moore, and I'm the president of the
League of Women Voters of Collier County.
We want to thank Commissioner Saunders for bringing this
proposal to study the structure of Collier County's government to the
Commission. The League actually does not have a position on the
issue of the way that the commissioners are elected, whether single
district, at-large, or some combination of the two, but we do support
the idea of a county study.
The League believes that decisions like this that will impact the
structure of government should only be made after a careful review
of all of the facts. That's why we support a county study of the
issue.
If a study is approved and if the pros of changing the structure of
February 27, 2024
Page 31
government outweigh the cons, then we support bringing that issue to
the voters to decide. Also, if a county study is approved, the League
would hope that members of the public might be part of the study
committee. And if they were open to the public, the League
member -- we would like League members to be included as part of
that committee.
The League is nonpartisan, so we don't have a vested interest in
coming to a conclusion to support a political party or a particular
candidate or a particular constituency.
Also, because the League currently has no position on the issue,
we will likely be conducting our own study in parallel to that of the
county's to determine what position, if any, that we would take.
So thank you for considering the issue, and we hope that you'll
approve a study.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Jackie Keay. She'll be
followed by Dr. Dmitriy Shoutov.
MS. KEAY: Jackie Keay.
So, yes, I am also in support of this study and certainly hope that
you-all would consider it, because sometimes in life it doesn't have to
be complicated, but I feel like common sense goes a long way. As
our demographics are drastically changing, our community is
growing, the needs of the community have changed as well.
Whether it's an issue of governance, affordable housing, schools,
you know, teaching, whatever we do in the community, all members
should be included in this.
It's interesting because I live out in Commissioner McDaniel's
district, so every time I've always had a problem, I always went
straight to him first, but on an issue related to our homes out in the
Estates, I went ahead and wrote to Commissioner Daniels [sic] as
well as the other four commissioners, and the reason why I chose to
do that is because they each get to vote on this issue.
February 27, 2024
Page 32
So if you-all are voting on an issue that impacts my life, then I
feel like I have the right to, in that way, hold you-all accountable,
because your vote impacts my life too as well, even though the
person I would go to first is Commissioner McDaniel.
So thank you-all very much. I approve this option of looking at
a study, and hopefully it will become a referendum where it gives
voters more options, more choices, and it gives us a chance to not
only hold you-all accountable, but also for us to say that we see you,
and, you know, thank you for what you're doing, but also if there's
more work that needs to be done, it gives us more choice. So thank
you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Dr. Dmitriy Shoutov. He
will be followed by Elizabeth Radi.
DR. SHOUTOV: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen,
distinguished commissioners, fellow audience members.
Commissioner Saunders, I respect you and value your
experience and knowledge. And we met, and we spent a lot of time
talking.
You're now calling for a reevaluation confused me and a lot of
my friends, but when I heard your comments today, I got more
confused.
Let's think together calmly and thoughtfully. You just said that
the new system -- you're calling, by the way, to -- at-large system
which used to be before '88. You said, new system will make
county commissioners more accountable. New system, which is in
your mind, will make our county commissioners more accountable.
Okay. I have a question for you. I thought, Mr. Saunders,
you're accountable. Good enough. But if you're not enough
accountable, let's see first for the reason why you don't accountable,
because at-large election system will not make you more accountable.
Something else will make. Right or I am wrong?
February 27, 2024
Page 33
Now, also you said, okay, well, you know, if somebody presents
somebody from a different district, you know, women league or
men's league, whatever, it will be easy to touch upon with a
commissioner who is from other districts because they collectively
elected. That's wrong. Why it's wrong, from my personal
experience. I met you all, and you were professional, very attentive,
and very polite, and that's just way to do [sic]. You saw me. That
statement is not substantiated.
Okay. When someone comes to a judge and complains, Mr. X
owes me money. The judge -- the judge will say, substantiate.
Substantiate.
Well, with all my respect to Mr. Saunders, he's called for
reevaluation is not substantiated.
Let's think about it slowly. First of all, we have to answer the
question, what is wrong with this system we currently having? What
is wrong? And guess what, the most important people to answer this
question will be the commissioners, not the outside committee.
Okay. I have a lot to say, but probably the most important, I
think I told you. Let's look at the county Alachua, Alachua County,
from '22, 2022 to 20 [sic], they've been voting and fighting,
commissioners and the audience, citizens, and commissioners didn't
vote to change at-large to district representative. And it took them
four years and, finally, people, I mean, insisted the commissioners
voted to change for district representative.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Okay. Let's wind it up.
DR. SHOUTOV: And you know what? Your statement about
participating minorities also not substantiated, because based on the
experience I just read a lot in Google, it shows that minorities,
people -- colored people, they want the system we're having now.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Okay. Mr. Shoutov, thank you so
much, sir. Thank you, sir.
February 27, 2024
Page 34
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Elizabeth Radi. She'll be
followed by Richard Conover.
MS. RADI: Good morning, Commissioners. Elizabeth Radi.
If we learned anything from the last election, we learned that
people have the right to have their vote counted.
Several years ago I spoke to Representative Byron Donalds
about the fact that those that are making decisions for our community
as a whole should have the right to have their votes and be able to
vote for the person that they feel represents them, not just in one
district.
It keeps those in power accountable to not just those that are
monopolized in a single district but to all voters who have a voice
and whose lives are changed by the decisions that are made.
Last election we saw what happened when the system gets
monopolized for gain for one party or one district. Forty-eight
percent of a vote in one district was locked out from being able to
vote. Unfortunately, that write-in candidate ended up in a full ethics
slam-dunk investigation.
The antics that have taken place, some might say, are straight-up
foolery, to say the least. The citizens of Collier County deserve to
have their voices heard, their concerns addressed, and their votes
counted, every last one of them.
And to the comment in reference to minorities' voices and votes,
Collier County is economically segregated, and we all know that. So
in specific districts, there are more minorities in one than there are in
others, but when they're not represented, if they don't feel
represented, they're not going to vote because they feel like, what
does it matter? Why should I vote? Because no one cares about my
voice. No one cares about my concerns.
Opening this up holds everyone in this room accountable for
those voices, and not just the districts, not just the district pockets,
February 27, 2024
Page 35
not just the special interest groups, but everyone at large. And I
agree with the study. We need to at least look into it. That way it
shows transparency and the willingness to work with every voter in
the district.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Richard Conover. He'll
be followed by Patricia S. Lertch.
MR. CONOVER: Good morning, everybody. Thanks for
having this meeting, and I appreciate all the work that you've done on
this, Burt, to try to put this together. Thank you very much.
My name is Richard Conover. I live in District 3, and I want to
urge you to discard this study.
Burt and I met at a rally on January 7th, and we talked a little bit
about this proposal. And when Burt initially told me about the idea,
the idea of being able to hold our commissioners more accountable
sounds very appealing, and we all want that. We all kind of feel like
maybe we don't get heard enough. But by taking away our district
representation, we're going to end up with more and more running
unopposed in our county.
I happen to have a little experience right now with what it's like
to launch a campaign here in Collier County. If you're an
independent or you're a minority, you are on your own. You don't
get support, and it will be very difficult.
Right now, going at large to hold commissioners accountable
just kind of doesn't sit right with me. I don't understand why
changing a form of government would make you folks more
accountable to us. I think there's only one way to hold our elected
officials accountable, and that power to hold you accountable lies out
there. It lies at the voting booth. It doesn't lie with the form of
government that we choose.
To run for office now, it's a big lift to gather signatures or to
gather the funding. If we go to at large, it will effectively block
February 27, 2024
Page 36
anybody but a Republican from running in Collier County.
I don't have any problem with the Republican Party here in
Collier County, but I think if we want choice, we don't want to be
locked out from elections.
And as the county grows, I think it's crucially important that
individual districts be represented. Nothing feels more like we don't
have power than when an individual like Manny comes up here and
talks about how folks in District 5 and Immokalee feel like they've
been disregarded.
And I'm not making a comment on any particular commissioner
at this point, but changing our form of government is not going to
make you folks more accountable to us. Us voting and choosing
representatives that do what we need is going to make the
commissioners more accountable.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Stay with us, Mr. Conover.
MR. CONOVER: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Direct your comments at the Board,
please.
MR. CONOVER: Absolutely, sir.
So what I would ask you to do is please reserve the political
mumbo-jumbo for other things, for the media, not for your
constituents, not for the people that vote for you. We kind of feel, at
least I do, that this is a little bit of political gamesmanship to be able
to say, hey, I'm going to float this piece of legislation, and I'm going
to make everybody more accountable. It's not going to happen that
way, folks, and I would urge you not to fund the study.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Patricia Lertch. She'll be
followed by Rae Ann Burton.
Ms. Lertch has been ceded additional time from Shirley Lytwyn.
Shirley, can you raise your hand?
February 27, 2024
Page 37
(Raises hand.)
MR. MILLER: Thank you. She will have a total of six
minutes.
MS. LERTCH: Good morning. My name is Patricia Lertch,
and I've been up here before meeting you lovely gentlemen, even
though I did not like your decision, and that's why I'm here today,
because I think what you're doing right now is opening the things up
so that if someone says yes to come in to do something in our
property or on our district, I can't vote you out. I have to take your
decision.
And bear with me while I speak my part.
I was before you on December the 12th, 2023. Over
168,000-square-feet self-storage warehouse where you want to come
and put on just two lots in our residential Estates-zoned land, which
is only 5.54 acres, meaning this warehouse is bigger than any
warehouse you have in Collier County, yet they want to bring it into
our neighborhood, and this is what happened.
At the meeting of Commissioner Saunders that day, he asked,
was there anybody -- what's the record of the voting that took place,
say, for two years. When the record came out, they found, and we
found, that everything that was proposed before you commissioners
was passed. What it means is, you would go into a district, and the
district commissioner would say, no, I'm not going to have that come
in my district, but everyone else on the Board said yes, so it all
passed. Two years, nothing failed, which is wrong.
If you're going to put something in my district, I should be able
to vote on you for your district and get you out. Why should I have
to take your decision that you're putting it into my district?
Right now it seems to be that pattern that's going on, and right
now what's going on and where we stand right -- right now today,
this is what's happening today because of your decisions. The
February 27, 2024
Page 38
property's been surveyed. The trees have been tied, what's going to
be taken down.
And when I had mentioned this, I had mentioned about the
traffic being so heavy on Collier Boulevard. It's about up right now
to 37,000 cars per day. And I said, there's no way that they can build
an entryway coming from Collier Boulevard which is against our
Golden Gate Area Master Plan saying no business shall be entered
through -- by Golden Gate Boulevard, but yet you're -- that's been
passed. That's been walked over. That's been -- everything that's
been put here doesn't even follow our Golden Gate Area Master Plan.
And here we've got a beautiful plan that's lasted for years, and you're
trashing it, kicking it to the curb.
So what we've got right now, on Picture 1, I was told that there's
all concrete. There's only a little bit of property on this street, and
we need to make it all the same. Well, if you look at this, this is the
corner of where the house is that's got to be taken down, and all the
grass is coming out, and it's going to be concrete. But if you see the
next picture, you're going to see from Brooks shopping center all the
way down. It's all grass. There is no concrete showing except
what's going to happen at Collier Boulevard and 13th Avenue
Southwest.
So now -- do you want to -- next picture. Thank you. So there
we are. We're looking at all -- you see the grass all the way down
from Brooks shopping center all the way down. There is no concrete
showing, but we're going to have concrete at the corner of 13th
Avenue Southwest.
And this is -- this is another picture, yep. Okay. Thank you.
And so this is how it looks. This is the property where the
warehouse is going on, and that other house is being taken down.
Now, if you'll notice in the Collier Boulevard section, in the median,
they're going to have to come in, and they're going to have to take
February 27, 2024
Page 39
that all out because they're making a road from Collier Boulevard
into the warehouse.
And when I said, I said, oh, how in the world can they do that
with all this traffic? And it was suggested, oh, they do it at
nighttime. At nighttime. Don't they realize at nighttime we have
14 -- we have 18 feet where there's a family of a mother and father
and grandmother with the children there, four children from
kindergarten to high school. And guess how -- when they're going
to take it down, at nighttime. In a residential, at nighttime. They're
going to bring in floodlights and jackhammers.
And that's going to happen at nighttime, but yet I could not vote
any of these people out, and I think it's wrong, that for three -- two
years we've had the same people that are out of the district and not in
the one district. The one district will say, no, I'm not going to put it
in, but everybody else can say, yes, I want to put it in. And this is
what's happening right now today.
We're going to have jackhammers, we're going to have
floodlights all over the neighborhood. And guess what? The
neighborhood is not commercial. It's residential. And we have to
put up with that?
So I ask you, we need -- if you're going to put something in our
district, we want to be able to vote you out, and that's my vote.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Rae Ann Burton. She'll
be followed by Daniel Zegarac.
MS. BURTON: Good morning. I'm Rae Ann Burton, and
thank you, Commissioner Saunders, for reading my speech.
I -- well, I totally agree with her and I disagree with her because
my fear is that when -- okay. At first it sounds great, but in
reviewing it, I fear it will destroy the Estates because people will be
voting that are making decisions that don't live in the Estates. I
have -- the same reason for her wanting it to be done.
February 27, 2024
Page 40
The population, it was already mentioned by Commissioner
Saunders, 70 percent don't live here. We do. Therefore, the
majority don't have the same values as we do.
They live in high, dense communities, compact housing, or
living on top of one another in high-rises and have no idea what it
means to live in a rural area of low density. Open spaces.
We were not locked indoors during COVID. We could go
outside and scream to high heaven if we wanted to. And what does
it mean -- and what it means to see wildlife in our -- in their habitat in
our backyard without going to a zoo.
Four, the quality of life is totally different in the Estates. We
are out there because we want to get away from congestion, traffic,
noise, and pollution. We have less crime. We even know some of
our neighbors. Most of us do. The area was chosen for that very
reason, for price share [sic], only nature, and lack of crime. I fear
this change would give more control on development and rezoning by
those whose only interest is profit and not the quality of life that the
residents that live there now enjoy.
The current board has -- well, we mentioned this before -- four
members that don't really live in the area and, therefore, can't
appreciate what it is that we enjoy.
How will this referendum -- this ensure that the Board will be
more accountable? Are you not supposed to be accountable now?
Therefore, do not approve this change. It just adds more to
the -- like they say, more government to the problem.
We want the ones that we vote in to be responsible. We want
you in our district, and we want you to be living in our district and to
be aware of our concerns and hear our pleas and understand us. We
voted you in, and we will vote you out if we can. If there's someone
running against you, we will.
Therefore, do not approve this change. Let the actual residents
February 27, 2024
Page 41
that live there decide who represents them. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Daniel Zegarac. He will
be followed by Chantal.
MR. ZEGARAC: Good morning. My name is Daniel
Zegarac. I live in Collier County, and I have friends in every
neighborhood in Collier County. Good friends, people that I would
consider good people.
First of all, I'd like to commend Commissioner Saunders for
suggesting at-large voting in Collier County. What I would like to
recommend for Collier County is to change from five districts to four.
And I know we're a little bit intimidated by the state with things that
we do. But I'd like to change from five districts to four, have
representatives elected from those four districts, and then add three
at-large commissioners. That will obviously give us the best -- the
best solution to the many problems that we have.
If you want to keep all five and just add two at-large, that's good
too. I don't -- I don't have a problem with that. Studies show that
five to seven committee members are optimal.
There are very few local governments in Collier County other
than these gentlemen. Realize that Naples only has 20,000 full-time
residents, and Marco Island's also a neighborhood. It only has
20,000 local residents.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Mr. Zegarac, keep your comments up
here.
MR. ZEGARAC: Yeah, I know. Some of these guys are
really interested in what I have to say.
CHAIRMAN HALL: They can hear you.
MR. ZEGARAC: You know, add some expertise, experience,
and competence to the expertise, experience, and competence you
already have, and accountability will occur, and you'll be able to
serve 400,000-plus residents.
February 27, 2024
Page 42
The county above us, Cape Coral has over 200,000 residents,
and Fort Myers has over 100,000 residents. That's 40 or 50 percent
of that county. The county below us has five commissioners, and
they have about 80,000 residents. That's it, okay?
What else did I want to say? Today, as a Board, you have
failed. You have totally failed. I've seen Manny up here three
times in the last three years. And by the way, I've been to maybe
100 of these meetings in the last three years. So if anybody needs
any knowledge of some of the things that happen here, talk to me.
Veterans coming up reminding you that they need to speak with
you? Really? Veterans doing that? I don't know. My dad was on
Iwo Jima. And don't interrupt me. I just said my father was on Iwo
Jima.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you, sir. Thank you for your
time. Your time's up. Thank you, Daniel.
MR. ZEGARAC: Manny deserves the soccer fields. For the
third year in a row --
CHAIRMAN HALL: Mr. Zegarac, your time is up.
MR. ZEGARAC: -- Manny deserves the soccer fields.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Chantal Scherer. She'll
be followed by Jean Kungle.
MS. SCHERER: Good morning, everybody. I am totally
against having somebody else coming into our commissioners whom
we vetted and whom we voted for to stand their ground in their lanes
in their districts. They're amply qualified for doing that.
If you want a mess, go north. Naples is not a mess.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Chantal.
MS. SCHERER: Sorry. Naples is not a mess because we have
great commissioners up here representing us on a day-to-day basis.
They each have their districts, and they have their constituents that
they trust, and they trust them. They're able to go and pick up a
February 27, 2024
Page 43
phone, and if they have a problem, they'll be on it. I have
every -- every confidence in our commissioners.
But it's ironic, Mr. Burt Saunders, that you're running this year.
So why are you doing this?
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I'm doing this because I
think a study to evaluate what is in the best interest of this county in
the long-term future is a valid exercise. No other reason. I just
want to have some folks take a look at it and tell us what they think is
the best way to organize the county commission for the long-term
future. I'm not talking about anybody on this board. So that's why
I'm doing it.
MS. SCHERER: So there must be some lack of confidence in
your fellow commissioners or -- they have their districts. They
know their districts. They have an open-door policy with them.
You bring in somebody else to come and maybe argue with Chris
Hall about a decision that he's made in his -- in his commissioner -- I
mean in his district.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: You would still
have -- regardless of what structure is ultimately decided, you would
still have a resident commissioner who lives in that district. So
Commissioner McDaniel, just using his name as an example, lives in
District 5. Under a countywide election process, Commissioner
McDaniel would still live in District 5, but --
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Saunders, let's continue
with the public comment, and then we'll have discussion after.
MS. SCHERER: Okay. I feel that if Commissioner Kowal
made a decision in his district, and, you know, listening to his
constituents, then you don't need anybody else coming in and
redefining his decisions, you know. It's trust amongst the district.
What you will do will create chaos, and I don't want chaos. Chaos
can stay up north.
February 27, 2024
Page 44
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Jean Kungle. She will be
followed by Don Braswell.
MS. KUNGLE: Good morning, Commissioners. Jean Kungle,
East Naples resident.
East Naples is represented on this board by a resident from the
City of Naples and a resident from the City of Marco. You are now
asking us to agree to have the entire county to decide who will
represent East Naples or, in lieu of that, you'd like to have two
at-large from anywhere in the county voted by everyone in the
county. Hmm. Follow the money in any election. Who has the
most money? That's who gets voted in these sad days.
No, I am not in favor of either of these scenarios. East Naples
was and still is compromised by the district lines approved both by
this county and the state a few years ago. You want seven
commissioners, you need to have seven districts.
And as far as approving a study, just ask the public itself. We
don't need to spend another tens of thousands for another study for
someone else to ask the questions. Like so many other studies,
waste of money. Ask our residents yourself. Thank you.
And on behalf of East Naples Civic and Commerce as first vice
president, we are hearing some of these same concerns from
neighborhood leaders and citizens, and we feel this should not be a
top priority for the BCC or the Productivity -- Productivity
Committee to be spending time on. Again, thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Don Braswell. He'll be
followed --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Can I make a comment, please?
Ma'am? Ma'am, I'd just like to correct you. I live in the
county. I don't live in the city. I don't live in the City of Naples. I
live in the county. I think I'm probably the first representative of
District 4 in the past two commissioners that didn't live in the city.
February 27, 2024
Page 45
So -- and I'm very familiar with East Naples. I spent 20 years
of my life there working for the Sheriff's Department. So I'm happy
to represent you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Don Braswell. He'll be
followed by Ray Bearfield.
MR. BRASWELL: Hello, gentlemen.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Don, can you hold on one
second?
MR. BRASWELL: Sure.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Mr. Chair, I just would like
to remind us that -- I mean, this is not a -- this is not a debate amongst
us and the community. You have certainly a right to correct the
record, but commenting to someone at the podium just elicits an
argument, I mean -- and that lady was commenting back to you. So
if we could just hold our thoughts until -- and make a note to make a
correction of the record if something inappropriate is said, that's a far
better way for us to manage. This is a highly emotional subject,
so -- thank you, Mr. Chair.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Braswell.
MR. BRASWELL: Hello, gentlemen, Don Braswell. Briefly,
what I would like to put to it is that, frankly, we leave it the way it is.
The size of our county and the representation that we have, I
think, is premier. I can call any of you gentlemen, and I will get a
great response, but I also know that Rick is also always there for me,
too.
I don't see any competition for, hey, I need a request done.
What I do see, when you change to the other format, is running for
office is not a cheap thing. It costs money. And if you go at large,
what does it do to the cost to run a campaign? And that -- if a retiree
like me decides, hey, Bill, I want to take your position, it would be
more -- you know, more than I could ever come up with the funds
February 27, 2024
Page 46
for. Keeping it down to just your district, you can focus your time,
your efforts, and your money. So if it's not broken, let's not fix it.
Thank you, gentlemen.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Ray Bearfield. He'll be
followed by VA Keeys.
MR. BEARFIELD: Good morning, Commissioners. My
name is Ray Bearfield. And it occurs to me that these comments
kind of suggest we've already started the study group.
Over the past several years, the county commission has stepped
into issues such as the response to COVID is dictated by the CDC,
whether or not some form of symbolic secession in the form of
sanctuaries act is appropriate for the county's attention, whether the
combined wisdom of the dental associations and the professional
communities suggest that fluoride should be taken out of the drinking
water.
All of these things are basically manifestations of what I would
call a reaction to a perception of government overreach. And I think
a lot of us know where a lot of that is coming from. It's kind of the
Zeitgeist of our times, if you will.
What I would suggest is that a study of whether there's a way to
create a more informed and responsive county government to see us
into the future is not out of line. I would further suggest that the fact
that so many issues come before the commission and die for lack of a
second indicates to me that four people in a county of 380,000 people
are making decisions without any discussion, without any track
forward. And I'm not a mathematician, but that's .0002 percent of
Collier County's population that is unilaterally making a decision.
And, you know, I'm not talking about having a spirited
discussion among the board members where comments were gathered
from the community. I'm talking about a second to a motion to
consider something and the fact that four people are able to say, no,
February 27, 2024
Page 47
we know best. The 380,000 people out there, we're not even going
to give you a chance to respond to this. I think that's inherently a
prima facie example of overreach by government.
I think Commissioner Saunders' request that we at least have
this discussion suggests that there are ways to make our government
more responsive. I think the people who live on Isles of Capri, the
people who live in Golden Gate Estates who are seeing their Estates
plan nibbled away bit by bit would acknowledge that, you know, they
don't feel like the present system is working.
And I think there's a lot of confusion, as evidenced in the
comments I've heard today. But I would support everyone in the
county letting their position be known so that we can at least have the
discussion about whether this study is worthwhile and whether it
represents a path going forward.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your final registered speaker is VA Keeys.
MR. KEEYS: Good morning, Chair. Good morning, County
Commissioners. So good to be with you again today.
Before I get started on the issue, I do want to recognize Black
History Month and commend you on your display here. It's a lovely
display, and I want to thank you for that.
I believe you have received our letter in opposition of this
structural change only because we believe in history, and we have
considered this. And I'm sure there's a library full of information
regarding this single-member district selection that we have here.
And, quite frankly, we want you and everyone to take the time
out, if they feel so emotionally involved in this issue, to reduce it to
putting it in writing. It would eliminate some of the heated
discussions that we have over this topic.
And so please review our letter, consider, in hopes that we keep
our single-member district in place. There's a lot of studies and/or
February 27, 2024
Page 48
changes that have taken place across the state that, if you'd like to
review, consider, you could do so. It has changed also across the
country, in some cases, going to an at-large district.
So, please, take the time out, review those changes that have
taken place in other areas but, as you very well know, Collier County
is special. It is paradise, and we want to keep it that way. So to
make some changes nowadays at this point in time, I don't believe we
need to do so. So thank you so very much.
MR. MILLER: That was our final comment.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Saunders, do you want to
sum up and make a motion?
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah. I've got a couple
comments, and I'll keep it relatively brief.
I ran for County Commission in 1986. That certainly let's folks
know how long I've been around here. When I ran, I had -- it was
countywide election. I received and spent $9,000 in a countywide
race. My opponent had just over $100,000 and was an incumbent on
the County Commission at the time and had tremendous support from
the development community and, therefore, had a lot of money. The
point is -- and I got 64 percent of the vote.
The point is that money's not the only issue that determines an
election. We all know that. Hard work, getting out and meeting
with the voters, having a good story to tell, being a good candidate,
having a good history, that's what wins elections.
We see plenty of evidence of highly funded candidates who do
not win because they don't have the right message to deliver. They
don't do the hard work. So I don't think that going to some
countywide system necessarily locks out good-quality candidates
from jumping in and running good person-to-person grass-roots types
of campaigns.
Again, all I'm asking is for us to take a look at it. I think that
February 27, 2024
Page 49
the misconception is that regardless of what system we have, you're
going to have a resident commissioner in your district. So Rae Ann
Burton and the folks in Golden Gate Estates that have spoken out
against this, you would still have a commissioner living in your
district. You would just have the opportunity to impact the other
four more directly with your vote.
I think the two comments that I think were most telling for me
as to why this is a good thing to at least take a look at, Patricia Lertch
and Jackie Keay very eloquently said, this commission is making
decisions effecting their lives very directly and, therefore, they
should have the ability to vote for the commissioners that are
affecting their lives. Right now they don't have that opportunity.
I'm not saying that we should make a switch. I'm not saying
that we should place this on the ballot. I'm suggesting that we have
our productivity committee, as an example, do a deep dive and come
back to us with the pros and cons, and what -- and then we can make
a decision as to what we think is the best approach going into the
long-distance future. That decision may be keep things the way they
are; no change in the single-member district. That decision could be
placing on the ballot a change to go to at-large system or a system
where you have a single member living in your district that you vote
for but then you have two at-large districts, as was pointed out by one
of the speakers as a possibility.
But I think the study, the evaluation is valuable. It won't cost
anything. There's not -- I'm not asking the Board to hire an expert to
come out and tell us anything. I'm asking a group of citizens to
evaluate this.
So, Mr. Chairman, I think -- I don't know if there's any
discussion from the Board, but I'll end there with, again, my request
is just to evaluate the different options.
CHAIRMAN HALL: A motion required?
February 27, 2024
Page 50
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: A motion would be required,
and if there's no comment, I'll go ahead and make a motion just to get
the discussion going. That motion would be -- and I'm going to pick
the Productivity Committee as an example of a committee to do this.
I'm going to suggest that we ask the Productivity Committee to
spend the next 90 to 120 days evaluating what would be the pros and
cons of all of these different structures and report back to us on the
pros and cons of those structures for us to make a determination as to
whether we should even consider making a change. So I'll make that
as a motion, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Okay. Motion's made to have a study
done by the Productivity Committee in 60 or 90 [sic] days. Is there a
second?
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I've got comments.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Do you want to comment first?
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Who's lit up?
CHAIRMAN HALL: Go ahead. Go ahead, Rick.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Do you want a --
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Do you want a second for
comment, or do you just want to go into comment? I have no
interest in seconding, but we do have comments. So how do you
wish to proceed? I mean, I can make a motion for second -- I'll
second it for discussion purposes.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All right. So we have a motion and a
second.
So, Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Yeah, I just wanted to make
some comments before we vote.
I've said before when Commissioner Saunders brought forward
the moratorium hearing request -- and there was some confusion out
February 27, 2024
Page 51
there that we were voting on the moratorium, which we weren't. It
was to have public -- you know, public hearing.
And I've said regardless of maybe what stance I have -- and I try
to have a neutral stance until all the information comes in, but I think
if any commissioner up here has an idea for discussion -- and I think
Commissioner Saunders said it best where we're not spending tens of
thousands of dollars. We're taking a committee that's a voluntary
committee already and giving this to them and seeing what they come
up with.
But having said that, I do want to speak for my district. And I
think the constituents, in my district, in District 1, they take great
pride in having a local commissioner. Maybe some people love me,
maybe some people don't. I live on Marco Island, and it's been said,
oh, you live on Marco, and so you don't know anything about District
1.
I was the chief operating officer of the only hospital in District
1, Physicians Regional, so -- and much like Commissioner Kowal
who has said, you know, regardless of where his mail gets delivered,
he's burned a lot of shoe leather across the entire county.
But I think my constituents take pride, whether they live in East
Naples or Port of the Island or Golden -- or Isles of Capri or
Goodland or Marco or anywhere in between, they like having
somebody that lives in their ZIP code.
I think the way that the system is now, having each of us live in
our districts, makes it more cohesive and balanced. I think when
you live in the same ZIP code as your constituents, there's a little bit
more accessibility and maybe -- and I think also a bit more
accountability. You're running into people a little bit more regularly.
You know, a general election -- I don't know that I want to see
five commissioners who all live in Port Royal. And I agree with
Commissioner Saunders, you know, the Yankees sometimes spend
February 27, 2024
Page 52
the most money, but they don't always win the World Series. Same
with the Washington football team as well.
But having said that, on the flip side, you could get a
concentration of commissioners that all come from one area, and that
could be sort of the negative. I'm not saying it's a guarantee, but
that's one of the negatives.
I think the No. 1 attribute of any commissioner is influence. So
when we heard somebody say, well, you know, in my district, my
commissioner voted no for a particular project, and all four of the
others voted yes. Well, it might not because we're Ogres and stupid
and didn't spend any time on the issue. There might be a little bit
more behind it.
But I know when something comes up for a vote in my district
and I feel passionate about it, my job's not just to vote yes or no and
then sit back and see what happens. My vote's to talk to the other
commissioners up here who are about to vote and convince them why
something's important or not important in my district.
And I think, you know, it's not a matter of, you know, you want
to vote out the commissioners who voted something in your district.
You might want to take a look and say, yeah, your commissioner
voted for something, was the only vote, well, why couldn't they
convince two more people to vote for something?
But having said that, I'm all for, always, public voice, public
choice. I think the Productivity Committee is a perfect place to start
and have them give us their feeling.
I don't want to play my hand here, but I really -- when I heard all
the speakers, Keith Flaugh, we had a senior leader from East Naples
who is a strong advocate for the civic and commerce committee, and
then Mr. Keeys, I really thought summed it up, you know, best. And
so those were the comments that really resonated with me.
And I'll just end it by saying, I think my constituents take great
February 27, 2024
Page 53
pride in having a local elected official. You know, whether it was
me, Commissioner Fiala prior, I don't -- you know, I mean, I hear
from them a lot that, you know, if you had five commissioners that
all lived in Immokalee, I just think that you would lose some of that.
So I realize there's some advantages. But in the end, you know,
if Commissioner Saunders wants to send this to the Productivity
Committee and see what comes back, I'm for that because I'll just go
back to the moratorium discussion. We didn't vote for it but, boy,
some great things came out of that discussion.
Trinity Scott sent us a whole list after that meeting and said, you
know what, the moratorium didn't pass, nobody even, I think, gave a
second to the motion, but it led to really healthy discussion.
So I'm all for -- you know, we heard from people from both
sides. You know, why would we stifle that? I think the last astute
thing I heard -- and it might be somebody that doesn't even agree
with me and I don't agree with them. But they said, why should five
people up here decide right now and shut down the whole discussion?
And I think sending it to the Productivity Committee -- like you said,
it's a group of volunteers. That's what they do. Let's see what
comes back. And in the end, it might be that we keep everything the
same but we get 15 recommendations from them to do, you know,
some other things that might be of value. So that's my point.
I would want support the study, but we'll see what happens with
the actual vote.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well, that's an interesting
paradox.
I supported the motion to -- or I seconded the motion just to be
able to open up and have some discussion and some dialogue
amongst us. I don't think -- I don't think any of us are interested in
disavowing our community from expressing their opinion.
February 27, 2024
Page 54
I think there's a lot of misconstrued thought processes about
representation. You and I regularly speak. You and I share a
similar opinion with -- you spoke "my district," "my district," "my
district," almost fortifying the silo effect that we have within our
community, and it's not that way. Your district is my district. Same
with all of us.
We are voted on by the folks within our district to come and
make decisions, and it's -- it would be counterintuitive to think that
the folks that elected me weren't a priority for me. But on the same
token, when we come into this dais, we represent the entire 400,000
people that live in Collier County. That's at least the way that I feel.
I would like to offer and challenge some of the suggestions that
were made that we weren't accessible, because I am all the time. I
know -- I know I spoke with a lady last night about the DAS
circumstances.
I have an open-door policy. I speak with everybody. I make
decisions as to what I think is best for the entire community with
focus, certainly, on District 5 for the folks that have, in fact, elected
me.
I'm not interested in conducting a study. I think our
productivity -- I think at this -- especially at this particular juncture,
there are a lot of really important issues that need to be taken care of
before we have a discussion about overall governance of how we do
and what we're doing.
We -- last year -- in February last year, we adjusted the mission
statement, the vision statement, the business plan, and the budget
priorities of Collier County. Last year we engaged a consulting firm.
And for the old guy's accounting terminology, the zero-based budget
process; it's now -- the new term is called "priority budgeting."
We are in the heat of that right now in preparation for the budget
initiatives that staff's going to come to us to develop the new budget
February 27, 2024
Page 55
for Collier County, for all of Collier County. I would rather -- if we
were going to utilize a group of volunteers to do a study, to dive -- do
a deep dive into that aspect of the changes that we're, in fact, going to
hopefully bring to how governance is performed within our
community.
The silo effect can easily be overcome. I've said it to folks on a
regular basis; it's imperative that with the system that we currently
have, that you're involved and aware of who, in fact, is being elected
in the individual districts. There was a fellow that -- I think there
was a fellow that came to the podium that said he has friends in every
single district. Talk to your friends. Let me know about how you
feel as to how the decisions that are being done are, in fact, being
taken care of.
Changing how we're doing it now will open the door for special
interests to take control. All you have to do is go across the county
line to the north and ask the folks in Lehigh Acres who their
commissioner is, let alone -- let alone see that person that's actually
representing them. And it's been going on for a long, long time.
Elected officials -- well, not elected officials. Politicians have a
tendency to follow the money. And there -- as was represented,
there are pockets of money that are throughout our community, and
politicians have a tendency to orient towards that and not from the
people that are, in fact, voting them in.
If you're actually doing your job, if we're actually doing our job,
we're open to the entire community. We've heard from several
people today who were not happy about a particular decision that
came across this commission. Sometimes you're not going to agree
with the decisions that are made by this board. Sometimes you are.
But it's certainly not a way to change our entire way of governance.
So that's all I have, sir.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Kowal.
February 27, 2024
Page 56
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you, Chairman.
You know, I like history, and I look at history because history
teaches us a lot. Sometimes it teaches us we did some dumb things,
and sometimes it teaches us we did some great things.
And I know sometimes -- excuse me, because I have a sinus
infection, so I sound this way.
But, you know, I know in this day and age with a lot of
progressive people in government, they want us to forget history or
erase history, you know, even though that -- good and bad history is
good because we all learn something from it.
And there's probably a reason in 1987 when the Board got
together and the people in the community and decided that year in
1988 to go away from countywide elections. And I think what
happened was, you've got to remember the timeline in 1988. You're
talking a majority of the population, a majority of the money was
west of I-75, and what they were seeing was not having
representation out in their District 5 or their District 3 due to the fact
that to run a countywide race, it takes a lot more money. And when
that happens, the people in the district that can't afford to back their
candidate that they want all of the time loses because somebody else,
even though they live in their district, is getting their money west of
I-75, and a lot of times that dictates who gets in that seat.
And we don't want to revert ourselves back to, you know,
having to go to the people with the deep pockets or the developers or
the industries or the -- you know, the companies that are willing to
sign that thousand-dollar check, which is the limit, when it's easier to
run in your own district -- because each district has its own
demographic of what amount of money it takes to run.
You know, District 5's a lot different than a District 4.
Commissioner McDaniel could probably run a heck of a campaign on
half the money that it would probably take to raise in District 4 and
February 27, 2024
Page 57
still be able to get his name out there. But when you do a
countywide, he's going to have to raise the same amount of money as
everyone up here when it's a county election. So where does he go
to get the funding? He goes west of I-75, because that's where the
money is.
And that's the reason back in 1988 they saw the writing on the
wall. They wanted actual people elected by the people in the
districts they live in, because then that brings them to speed to -- who
they're going to elect is who they're going to elect because they're
supported by them personally.
Now, I don't quite understand the thing about the minority
getting elected, because I think if you have a higher minority
population in your district, you have a greater chance of electing a
minority than you do if you spread it countywide, because that
number then diminishes just by the pure mathematics of introducing
thousands and thousands more voters that will -- for every one vote
the minority can cast, it's countered by another vote by somebody
else in the county. So to me, that doesn't make sense. You have a
more accurate chance.
We even had a leader of our -- you know, Mr. Keeys here. He
understands that. He understands that if you go countywide, you're
going to diminish that ability to have a minority sit up here on this
board.
So I believe history probably got it right in 1988. So I kind of
have to lean to the fact that I -- I believe in the system. And I know
earlier I made a comment -- maybe I should have just waited, but I
just wanted to put on the record -- because a lot of times people get
up and leave when we get ready to vote -- that I don't live in the City
of Naples. Never lived in the City of Naples. I've always lived in
the county. And I represent District 4. So, thank you, Chairman.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you, Commissioner.
February 27, 2024
Page 58
I want to make a couple of comments, then we have
Commissioner Saunders, Commissioner LoCastro, then
Commissioner McDaniel again.
My comments are this: Every commissioner up here I can
promise you is approachable and they care. They care for every
single person in the whole county in every district. Nobody wakes
up here in the morning with a selfish thought thinking I'm only going
to represent and do what's best for my district and forget the other
people.
You know, it's -- the Golden Rule says to treat everyone like you
want to be treated. It doesn't say just treat people in your district like
you want to be treated. I've lived by that, and I know that these
gentlemen do as well.
Whether you're black, white, red, green, yellow, purple, it
doesn't matter. If you're a quality individual and you're running for
office, you're going to get voted for. And to even assume that we
would -- you know, that we would -- that that would make a
difference in our -- in our decisions is naive.
To assume that we're not accountable or caring to every person
is both naive and absurd. To assume that we make decisions at
being .0002, or whatever the math was, is absurd and naive as well.
We're elected. I represent 58,000 people. I listen to them. I
talk to them. They talk -- they communicate with me. I'm not up
here making decisions on my own. I'm making decisions based on
what I'm hearing and what matters to the people that are
communicating to me, not only in my district, but people in every
district. My office is open.
I met with people yesterday from District 4 on a matter that's
near and dear to their heart. I was listening to them very intently.
So to spend time doing a study for something that the
constituents that I know in both -- in every district as well as my own
February 27, 2024
Page 59
have come to me and said we're not interested in, I'm not interested in
it either. But I want the public to know that every decision that we
make, everything that we hear, we consider everyone's best interest,
and we don't have just our district in mind.
Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First of all, I'm not pointing fingers at this board at all. I'm not
saying we're not accountable. I'm not saying we're not caring. I
think we all are. I think we have an excellent board. I think this
board, as you said, listens to all the constituents from all over the
county. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the
long term. I'm talking about the next 10 years, the next 20 years.
So I think that the discussion would be valuable to have, the
evaluation. We can, as they say, walk and chew gum at the same
time. We can evaluate structure of government while at the same
time we're evaluating how we're going to be handling our budget.
So it's not a question of being able to choose one or the other. We
can do both. It's -- as I said, it's not a complicated issue, and all I'm
asking for is an evaluation so that we can make an informed decision
as to whether to move forward with it or not. That's all. I don't
think there's any harm in that.
Commissioner Kowal, I mean, again, I hate to bring up the fact
that I was there in 1988, I know what the history was, and it's actually
a little different. I mean, it's close to what you suggested, but it's a
little different.
And I guess -- I mean, I can count to three here, so I know we're
not going to go forward with this, but at some point perhaps we can
have a conversation about what that history really was, because it's a
whole lot different than what the record seems to reflect. It was not
an effort to increase minority opportunities or anything like that, but
that's a conversation -- that's for another day.
February 27, 2024
Page 60
So, Mr. Chairman, I've got a motion. There's a second. And in
the interest of the -- again, the shortness of human life, let's go ahead
and vote on that and move on.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I've still got comments.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Terri, are you okay?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'll shut my light off after --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: My light's still on.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I just wanted to add a couple
things. I mean, I voted for -- you know, to use Commissioner
Saunders' term -- the evaluation of the moratorium. It was
evaluated, and when it came in here. It failed. So I'm all for
evaluations.
To Commissioner McDaniel's, you know, comment about we
have a lot more important priorities to do, I don't disagree. But if it's
going to the Productivity Committee, I don't think it's slowing us
down as commissioners, you know, if we task the Productivity
Committee -- if we have a bigger job for the Productivity Committee
than this, then let's give them a different homework assignment.
I think I've already sort of tipped my hand that I'm not -- I don't
think I'm going to be swayed by what the Productivity Committee
comes back with. Like I said, I think constituents in District 1 take
great pride in having a local commissioner.
And to Commissioner McDaniel's point, which I greatly respect
and agree with, when we come in here for a vote, we all do represent
all of Collier County. But you can't tell me there isn't an advantage
that right before a vote, if it's something in Commissioner Kowal's
district -- let's use Riviera Golf Estates. Hot topic. Yeah, we all
follow it, and just like Commissioner Hall said, I think we all met
yesterday with people from District 4 on a hot topic. But when we
come in here for the vote, more often than not the commissioner from
February 27, 2024
Page 61
that district has a little bit more to add.
I'm not having town hall meetings in Pelican Bay, yet when all
five of us just recently voted on something for Pelican Bay, how
valuable it was to have Commissioner Hall add that other extra piece
that none of us have by saying, you know, I've had several town hall
meetings. Let me just give you a little bit more. You know, he has
a newsletter, I have a newsletter, we all do, that goes specifically to
our constituents, and we hear back from them.
So, you know, if Commissioner Saunders thinks the Productivity
Committee would give us back some advantage type things, I'm not
here to shoot that down. Like I said, I thought an evaluation of the
moratorium really cost us nothing, but then in the end, none of us
seconded the motion, and I was -- I liked the positives that came out
of the discussion, but I think there's great value in having
commissioners from their specific districts, and we've already seen it.
When votes have come up, you know, the commissioner in that
district always has something a bit more to add that we wouldn't have
because they are so much more active in that district.
And then part of their job is, then, to influence us and say, you
know, you may not know this, but here's what I've heard from the
people in my district. And I know it helps my vote, and I would
hope, you know, when I contribute things about what I'm hearing in
District 1, that it would help us either solidify your vote and say,
wow, that's what I thought and Commissioner LoCastro confirmed it
because he's out and about in District 1 so much, or Commissioner
McDaniel's in District 5.
So, you know, I'm still fine with sending homework assignments
to the different committees; that's what they do. I've sort of tipped
my hand by saying I agree with, you know, Keith Flaugh; our East
Naples Civic and Commerce Association. It was represented by our
strong speaker; and Mr. Keeys. But if -- you know, if giving a
February 27, 2024
Page 62
homework assignment to the Productivity Committee maybe brings
us back some other things, I mean, that -- you know, and
Commissioner Saunders feels strongly about, tasking them with this
homework assignment, I think it's sort of no harm, no foul, but I've
sort of already tipped my hand that I'd have to hear something
magical to change how we're doing things now.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All right. Commissioner McDaniel, and
then I'd like to get to a vote because we have a court reporter break
that's greatly needed.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah, I'll be done in the
longest minute in history.
Two things: History is an important factor. And in
1986 -- when I came here in 1981, there were less than 100,000
people in Collier County. The average age was 70-something.
There is a lot different today. The demographics are different. The
people are different. It's just a lot different than today [sic].
I think it's imperative that we focus our volunteers in these
advisory committees to this board on the important aspects of what
we have going on right now. This issue may need to come up for
discussion some particular point in time, but I think timing is
everything.
I'm not going to support the motion for the study at this time.
I'm certainly not disavowing it someday, but I don't see -- I don't see
us taking a learned committee of citizenry to do a study on something
when there are, in my personal opinion, a lot more relevant
circumstances that need to be discussed, assistance with our staff
with the priority-based budgeting that we've already engaged a
consultant to, in fact, do.
And last point is: In regard to the ultimate decision, I think it's
a terrible disenfranchisement to the little person, the cost, Lee
County, those commissioners have to spend in excess of 3-, $400,000
February 27, 2024
Page 63
to seek election, and it disenfranchises the little person in that effort,
so...
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you.
All right. We have a motion and a second. All in favor of the
study, say aye.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All opposed?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Motion fails 3-2.
With that, let's take a court reporter break. Let's all be back at
11:20.
(A brief recess was had from 11:00 a.m. to 11:20 a.m.)
MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All right. What does that move us to?
Item #8A
THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, SITTING AS
THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS, REVIEW THE APPEAL OF
THE AUGUST 18, 2023, OFFICIAL INTERPRETATION ISSUED
BY THE ZONING DIRECTOR REGARDING THE TYPE OF USE
OR USES THAT QUALIFY AS A NEIGHBORHOOD FITNESS
AND COMMUNITY CENTER, A CONDITIONAL USE IN THE
GOLF COURSE ZONING DISTRICT, AND UPHOLD THE
INTERPRETATION OF THE ZONING DIRECTOR THAT A
“NEIGHBORHOOD FITNESS AND COMMUNITY CENTER” IS
A FACILITY THAT SERVES THE FITNESS AND COMMUNITY
NEEDS OF VARIOUS NEIGHBORHOODS AND A BROADER
February 27, 2024
Page 64
COMMUNITY. THIS IS A COUNTY-WIDE INTERPRETATION
NOT SPECIFIC TO THE LAKEWOOD GOLF COURSE. (ALL
DISTRICTS) - RESOLUTION 2024-35: MOTION ACCEPTING
SUSAN SWIFT AS AN EXPERT WITNESS BY COMMISSIONER
SAUNDERS; SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER KOWAL –
APPROVED; MOTION ACCEPTING JESSICA HARRELSON AS
AN EXPERT WITNESS BY COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS;
SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER KOWAL – APPROVED;
MOTION TO UPHOLD THE COUNTY’S CURRENT OFFICIAL
INTERPRETATION BY COMMISSIONER LOCASTRO;
SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER MCDANIEL – FAILED 2/3
(COMMISSIONER HALL, COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS, AND
COMMISSIONER KOWAL OPPOSED); MOTION TO REJECT
THE ORIGINAL INTERPRETATION AS NOT BEING BASED ON
COMPETENT, SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE BY COMMISSIONER
KOWAL; SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER HALL – ADOPTED
3/2 (COMMISSIONER MCDANIEL AND COMMISSIONER
LOCASTRO OPPOSED)
MS. PATTERSON: We're going to our "no sooner than
10 o'clock" time-certain, which is Item 8A. This is a
recommendation that the Board of County Commissioners, sitting as
the Board of Zoning Appeals, review the appeal of the August 18th,
2023, official interpretation issued by the zoning director regarding
the type of uses -- use or uses that qualify as a neighborhood fitness
and community center, a conditional use in the golf course zoning
district, and uphold the interpretation of the zoning director that a
neighborhood fitness and community center is a facility that serves
the fitness and community needs of various neighborhoods and a
broader community. This is a countywide interpretation not specific
to the Lakewood golf course.
February 27, 2024
Page 65
We do need to start with ex parte.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Kowal.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yes. I have e-mails and
meetings pertaining to this item.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yes. I also have some
meetings, correspondence, e-mails.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I do as well; meetings,
correspondence, and phone calls.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I have e-mails and meetings.
CHAIRMAN HALL: And I have meetings as well.
MS. PATTERSON: We do need to have the participants be
sworn in by the court reporter.
So all that are intending to participate, please stand to be sworn
in.
THE COURT REPORTER: Do you swear or affirm the
testimony you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth?
(The speakers were duly sworn and indicated in the affirmative.)
MS. PATTERSON: All right. We're going to begin with Mr.
Pires, the appellant.
MR. PIRES: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, members of the
Board, my name is Tony Pires with the law firm of Woodward, Pires,
and Lombardo, and today I'm here with Zach Lombardo, an attorney
with our firm, proudly representing the Lakewood Community
Services Association in this appeal.
We also have with us today a planner, certified planner, AICP
certified planner, Susan Swift, who will be providing some expert
opinion and some expert testimony with regards to this particular
February 27, 2024
Page 66
appeal in this particular matter.
I have a PowerPoint presentation, and I will try to be -- to utilize
it properly. And I'm sure Troy or Amy will tell me if I'm making
mistakes with regards to it.
So, again, on behalf of Lakewood, it's myself; also Lenore
Breakfield, my partner who is working on this; Zach Lombardo; and
Susan Swift. We also have Mr. Charles Salyer, who's the president
of the Lakewood Community Services Association, and some other
residents who are here in attendance today supporting the appeal by
Lakewood.
For the record, there are a number of documents I want to make
sure that go in the record. I sent an e-mail out to all the staff on
Monday, February 26th, with a number of documents that I saw were
not in the agenda packet or the attachments. So I went through the
voluminous documents.
So I gave a copy to Terri already, and there's an e-mail, cover
letter e-mail to the staff and a number of documents. I'd like to
make those a part of the record for today's hearing, if the Board could
accept that.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Sure.
MR. PIRES: Thank you. With regards to -- again, in this
particular matter, the zoning district at issue is called golf course
recreational open space district. We call it GC zoning district for
ease of this conversation. And this is a map of the golf courses
located in the GC district in Collier County, and you can see the
located and well-established residential neighborhoods throughout
Collier County from north to south and east. And they have been
around probably since the '70s and '80s. And this is straight zoning.
These are not golf courses and PUD developments. These are
straight GC zoning.
We have the Lakewood Country Club area, and you can see the
February 27, 2024
Page 67
highlighted area -- and this is from the Property Appraiser's aerial.
The highlighted area is the Lakewood Country Club, and you can see
all of the residential units, villas, condominiums, and single-family
homes, that this golf course is in the middle, and it's at the heart of,
intertwined in this particular Lakewood area with all the residential
units.
Next we have the Glades Golf and Country Club on the left, and
the Riviera Golf Estates is on the right. And, again, you can see how
the golf course has a significant effect on all the adjacent property
owners if it was to have development that's inappropriate for the
adjacent residential properties.
Next we have Quail Run golf course, and this is off Pine Ridge
Road and kind of tucked behind these Australian pines. That's
always my reference point. And they trim the tops of those, thank
goodness, after a while. They weren't trimming them in the past,
and there were some hurricane issues, but it's tucked behind there.
And, again, you can see that it's basically intertwined in the
residential community and in the heart of it.
Big Cypress, the Country Club of Naples, the residential
properties are surrounded by the golf course.
LaPlaya, Palm River, again, I go back to the '70s and '80s kind
of development scheme is, again, surrounded by residential
properties.
Imperial Golf Course up in North Naples. Quail Creek Country
Club, and I had thought it would be a PUD, but it's zoned GC. And
the Hibiscus Golf Club.
And while we are here, words matter. We think words matter,
common sense application of words matter, especially when there's
no definition in the Land Development Code. And as the County
Manager mentioned, this is a non-site-specific appeal, and the
interpretation was non-site specific.
February 27, 2024
Page 68
We are here appealing the August 18th, 2023, official
interpretation -- we call it the OI -- by Mr. Bosi, the Planning and
Zoning director. What we are asking the Board of Zoning Appeals,
you-all sitting as the Board of Zoning Appeals, to do today, reject the
decision by Mr. Bosi, find that the official interpretation is not
supported by substantial competent evident, or also find that the
official interpretation is contrary to the Growth Management Plan or
the Land Development Code, and finding that neighborhood fitness
and community is a use that only serves persons in a limited
geographic area.
What we asked when we heard about a particular project was
going to -- possibly apply for an application to be a neighborhood
fitness and community center -- ask, again, the word "neighborhood"
is a word that has meaning and a word of limitation; words matter.
On behalf of our client, we've submitted a request for official
interpretation of what type of facility qualifies as a neighborhood
fitness and community center. It's a conditional use listed in the golf
course zoning district.
The request was for an interpretation that the word
"neighborhood" be given its plain meaning. Words matter.
Consistency matters.
The official interpretation of August 18th, 2023, in essence,
renders the limiting word "neighborhood" meaningless in the code.
Mr. Bosi made a determination that -- he says, in conclusion, I find
that Conditional Use No. 7 in the golf course zoning district,
neighborhood fitness and community center, is a facility that serves
the fitness and community needs of various neighborhoods and a
broader community.
And by "broader community," in his official interpretation, he
referenced "regional" because he looked at other uses that don't have
the limiting word of "neighborhood." And so it's more than just the
February 27, 2024
Page 69
neighborhood. It's neighborhoods and the community. And so we
take issue with that. That's why we're here today. We believe that
words have meaning.
And his interpretation, we believe, is 180 and inconsistent with
Mr. Bosi's testimony and interpretation of "neighborhood" at an
appeal before the Board of Zoning Appeals back in October 12th of
2021, the food truck appeal.
In that hearing, he said -- as to neighborhood, he says, quote,
"What that's saying is the neighborhood commercial was a
neighborhood commercial zoning district, meaning that it doesn't
serve multiple neighborhoods. It serves one neighborhood." And
now his interpretation is, it serves the needs of various neighborhoods
in a broader community.
So, again, we believe the appropriate interpretation is the narrow
one that he articulated back two and a half years ago and not the
broader one that he's articulating today.
The appeal, what we're asking for, that the Board reverse the
interpretation and determine that a neighborhood fitness and
community center is a use that only serves person in a limited
geographic area, that is the term "neighborhood" in the context of the
conditional use of a neighborhood fitness and community center and
that zoning district refers to and means a limited and identifiable
geographic area in the immediate vicinity of and near by the property
where the proposed neighborhood fitness and community center is to
be located.
Furthermore, we believe -- we asked the Board to determine that
when there is a readily identifiable community or neighborhood, such
as Lakewood, in the context of a proposed neighborhood fitness and
community center, the primary use or uses of such neighborhood
fitness and community center must be limited to serve persons
owning or residing in that community or neighborhood.
February 27, 2024
Page 70
Considerations. The word "neighborhood" should be given its
common sense meaning. There's no definition of neighborhood in
the code, but you'll hear from our planner, Susan Swift, as to other
areas in the code that are useful and provide support for a limiting
definition of neighborhood and to provide meaning to it and provide
consistency.
The official interpretation renders the term "neighborhood"
meaningless as to the conditional use of a neighborhood fitness and
community center. We submit that the official interpretation is not
supported by competent substantial evidence, and we also believe
that the official interpretation is contrary to the Growth Management
Plan or the Land Development Code. And at the bottom, again, we
say, "neighborhood" is a word of limitation; otherwise, the word is
meaningless.
So some additional considerations is that the official
interpretation misconstrues the questions about neighborhood which
are intended to identify the appropriate location and impacts of a
neighborhood fitness and community center.
Mr. Bosi's reference to quote, various neighborhoods, closed
quote would result in neighborhood fitness and community service
serving any neighborhood in the community or actually in the region,
southwest Florida, even if it does not serve the neighborhood in
which it is located. This is contrary to Mr. Bosi's, as we mentioned
before, own prior clear statement specifically in his testimony before
the Board of Zoning Appeals regarding food truck parks.
Mr. Bosi does reference, as an example or an analogy, he
analogizes to, he uses as an example the Golden Gate Community
Center. But it's not a neighborhood fitness and community center.
We believe it's a poor example and irrelevant. That property is not
zoned GC. That property is zoned C-1, commercial, and that is a
county public park and facility.
February 27, 2024
Page 71
I would like to introduce and have the Board accept as an expert
witness in land-use zoning in Collier County Land Development
Code and Growth Management Plan, which she has extensively
reviewed and researched in preparing her opinions for the appeal and
for the presentation, she's an AICP certified planner. Her resume or
CV is in the packet way at the back end, so if you-all need additional
copies, I have that. I can provide another copy to Terri Lewis, the
court reporter, and I'd ask the Board take that into the record also, the
resume and CV of Susan Swift.
And, again, request that she be recognized as an expert witness.
She's certified by the American Institute of Certified Planners. She
has a master's in urban and regional planning from Florida State
University. She has a BA degree in geography, University of
Florida.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Chairman, I'll make the
motion. I think that's all you need. I mean, you've gone
through -- that's an incredible history. I'll make the motion that we
accept her as an expert witness.
MR. PIRES: Thank you very much.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I'll second.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All in favor, say aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
MR. PIRES: Thank you. And, Mr. Chairman, with your
indulgence and, Board, Susan Swift will be our next presenter.
Thank you.
MS. SWIFT: I'll try to -- being the long history of the boomer,
I'll try to do my own slides here.
February 27, 2024
Page 72
Thank you very much. I appreciate your time. I'm going to try
to explain why -- why, from a planning perspective, this was the
wrong interpretation -- excuse me -- wrong interpretation and why a
neighborhood, underlined "neighborhood," fitness and community
center is intended to primarily serve the neighborhood in which it's
located.
Just an overview of my major points: A neighborhood fitness
and community center, which is the use we're debating, is a
conditional use in the GC zoning district in your code. Your Land
Development Code -- in your Land Development Code, conditional
uses warrant special attention. They have a higher bar for scrutiny
for neighborhood impacts. The word "neighborhood" has meaning.
It is a geographic locational word that limits this use, and I'll get to
that in maybe more detail than you want to hear.
The word "neighborhood" has meaning in your Growth
Management Plan and your Land Development Code. As Anthony
said, this is not specifically defined. The word "neighborhood" is
not specifically defined in your plan or code, but there are a lot of
uses of the word, and I think you can hopefully come to the same
conclusion that we have, that this really speaks to a much more
localized area, not a regional or a market kind of use.
There are nine neighborhoods where you saw that have this GC
zoning district. It's not a planned development. It's not part of a
planned development. The golf course is a separate district in these
cases or areas that we're showing you. So it's a little -- a lot different
than a golf course community that has the golf course included as
part of the planned development. This is a lot different application
of how to zone for golf courses. The planning and zoning profession
and our regulations and documents regulate compatibility and
impacts, not market area, and that was something that was alluded to
a lot in the staff's opinion, and we believe that that has led to some
February 27, 2024
Page 73
conflicting interpretations, and we will hopefully show you a
different meaning of this use.
So the request for official interpretation asks the question:
What is a neighborhood fitness and community center? Because that
is the long use that's in your code.
So it's in the golf course, the GC zoning district. It's a
conditional use, as I mentioned, in this district, and conditional uses
warrant special scrutiny. Specifically -- and I have several code
sections. I promise I won't read all of my slides, but I think this
one's important. In the code it defines a conditional use: a use that,
due to special circumstances, is not permissible. It's not a permitted
use in this district, but may be appropriate if controlled as to number,
area, location, or relation to the neighborhood. So a conditional use,
by code, has this higher scrutiny that other -- than other uses by your
code, that it should have relationship to the neighborhood. And,
again, in another section of the code, it says -- has the same language.
So the fact that this neighborhood fitness and community center
use is a conditional use in the code and not permitted and that it has
the word "neighborhood" in front of it, in my mind, as a professional
planner, that takes this use to a higher bar of scrutiny, and it is
specific to neighborhood.
This was already discussed, but as the staff's reference -- this
might help. The staff's reference to various neighborhoods implies
that this use could serve any neighborhood. That specific -- having
the word "neighborhood" in front of this use is to the contrary of that.
This was intended as a conditional use and with the word
"neighborhood" in front of it to be a qualifier and not to serve -- not
just to be any Gold's Gym or any other fitness center or any other use
that sounds like a fitness or community use.
It's not -- if you look at their interpretation, that could apply to a
rehab center. You know, it's not a social service kind of use. A
February 27, 2024
Page 74
roller rink. There's usually only one roller rink or two or ice skating
rink in an entire county or region. That is not what a neighborhood
fitness and community center is. It's not a regional use. It should
apply primarily to the neighborhood in which it is located.
And to differentiate that use, the neighborhood fitness facility,
from every other district, every commercial district in your
code -- and I list them here -- except I'm not showing the slide.
Every other district does allow a fitness facility, but it's called a
physical fitness facility, which is very much different than a
neighborhood facility, a neighborhood fitness and community center.
So the conditional use and the word "neighborhood"
differentiates this from the very general fitness center or community
use that the staff attributed in their official opinion.
I'll show you -- and, again, I promise not to read the multiple
documents and citations where we believe that our evidence of the
meaning of the word "neighborhood" is a differentiator and a limiter
to this use.
These are from nationally recognized not only planning, legal
documents, but just the -- also the common understanding in addition
to these official or resourced definitions. None of these or no other
analysis of the definition of the word "neighborhood" was provided
in the staff's official opinion.
So there are several definitions that speak to the fact that a
neighborhood is kind of what we all think of it. It's not a region.
It's not the whole county. The use is really speaking to the
residential areas that surround it, and that's what a neighborhood
fitness center or a neighborhood fitness and community center is
intended to serve.
And these are some of the citations that I mentioned. Your
Growth Management Plan, again, it's never defined -- the word is not
defined in any of your documents, but there are a lot of citations that
February 27, 2024
Page 75
allude to the fact that the county's policy is that a neighborhood is a
localized area.
So this first one is what the county's Growth Management Plan
speaks to when it talks about neighborhood parks. It says it can be
walked to or biked to. That's usually a very -- the planning rule of
thumb is a quarter mile or 5- to 10-minute walk, and the plan -- the
Growth Management Plan actually differentiates that from a
community or regional park by saying that's a, quote, 15- to
20-minute drive.
So there are several -- the next one is -- actually, your code
defines neighborhood parks. It says, means a park which serves the
population of a neighborhood. Not various neighborhoods. So
there are many citations. Your public notice requirements, they
require any development to notify people within either 500 feet or a
thousand feet, depending the circumstance. So that's an
acknowledgment that the neighborhood impacts matter to a certain
use that's being proposed.
If this was considered a golf course conversion, your code says
the property owners within a thousand feet of a golf course are
specifically called stakeholders by your code. And then again, the
same quote, location or relation to the neighborhood. So
neighborhood is a qualifier and -- to a neighborhood fitness and
community center use, and that's why we believe that it's important to
note the words matter in this particular case.
Also, Lakewood is not -- as Mr. Pires spoke to, does not apply
just to the Lakewood planned development -- the Lakewood
community. It specifically addresses eight other locations spread all
over the county. They're all very residential in nature. They all are
neighborhoods, Lakewood in particular; very integrated golf course
into the community and into the neighborhood.
The neighborhood impacts and compatibility, just from a
February 27, 2024
Page 76
planning and zoning perspective, planning regulates the health,
safety, welfare of our community. That's what zoning was based on
in 1926, or whenever we started zoning. It's especially true when
you have a conditional use. And as I said, the impacts of a use on a
neighborhood are heightened -- have heightened scrutiny when they
are neighborhood uses and specifically when they're a conditional use
by your code.
The fact that the neighborhood fitness and community center use
is a conditional use and it's limited by the word "neighborhood" is
evidence that the county, when this was written -- this code was
written, has extra concern for the neighborhood impacts, and this was
intentional. It wasn't -- it's not just in a list of permitted uses. It's a
conditional use. That was intentional on the creators of this zoning
code and the fact that it has the word "neighborhood" in front of it.
As you'll see later, there are many other uses that have physical
fitness centers throughout your code. There's -- as I mentioned
before, there are, like, six or eight zoning districts that allow a
physical fitness center, but this is a neighborhood fitness center.
So there was clearly an acknowledgment that we'll have Gold's
Gyms and L.A. Fitness in commercial areas in the other eight
districts. This was different. This is a neighborhood fitness and
community center, and that was intentional.
As I said, planning and zoning as a profession and our
documents, our Comprehensive Plans, our zoning codes, they are
intended to regulate compatibility with surrounding areas and impacts
on the surrounding areas, and this surrounding area, meaning the
neighborhoods.
So Chapter 163, which give us the framework for Florida's
planning and zoning law, it talks about location -- location and
proximity of uses 14 different times. It never mentions the term
"market area." Market area is something that is alluded to in the
February 27, 2024
Page 77
staff's opinion, but that is not what Planning and Zoning look at.
That's an appraiser or a market analysis.
You could have a successful business or a not successful
business in a zoning code, a successful restaurant or a successful
retail shop, but Planning and Zoning isn't looking at the market area
of that use. It's looking at the location, the proximity to
neighborhoods, proximity to residential, and the impacts that that
may or may not have on the surrounding neighborhood.
So in our opinion, my opinion, the staff's official interpretation
really didn't give enough references or any references to the Growth
Management Plan citations that we have shown or the Land
Development Code citations, and there really wasn't analysis of the
meaning of the word "neighborhood" and its impacts of this use on
that -- on the surrounding neighborhoods.
The code, as I mentioned, differentiates a physical fitness
facility use and a neighborhood fitness and community center.
According to your code, those are two different uses. One's
permitted in many districts. One is a conditional use in the golf
course district.
And then, lastly, these were already mentioned, but the opinion
that's stated on the left, the conclusion, it really is inconsistent with
the food truck testimony. I've reviewed the testimony and, clearly,
there was an acknowledgment that in terms of those uses, one
neighborhood -- neighborhood meant one neighborhood, not a variety
of neighborhoods.
So with that, and the example that was provided in the official
interpretation using the Golden Gate Park that was already
mentioned, that's zoned commercial and it's a public park. So it's
really not relevant and it was really the only example provided in this
official interpretation.
So with that, again, my planning opinion is that the word
February 27, 2024
Page 78
"neighborhood" definitely differentiates this use from a physical
fitness center in general, and it is meant to primarily serve the
neighborhoods in which it is located and that we disagree with -- I
disagree with the official interpretation presented by the staff for
those reasons.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thanks.
MS. SWIFT: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: So for us on the Board, just to review, if
we have questions at any time, shoot. Just light up, and I'll call on
you.
I got the cart before the horse a little bit. So we've heard from
the appellant. Are you finished, Tony?
MR. PIRES: No, sir. If I may.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Okay. Just let me go -- I'm just going to
give a broad review here procedurally, and then we'll continue with
you. But we're going to hear from the appellant. Staff can ask them
questions. The impacted property owner can ask him questions.
Then we're going to hear from staff, and the other two will get the
chance to ask some questions, and then we're going to hear from the
impacted property owner, Mr. Yovanovich, of which staff could ask
questions, and so can the appellant. So that's kind of what we're
going to do, the procedure that we're going to go through. And there
again, any time we have questions, just light up, and I'll get you.
MS. SWIFT: I just wanted to add one thing. I did review the
site. I have done a site visit at the site, so I just wanted to get that on
the record. My apologies.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All right. Mr. Pires, continue, please,
sir.
MR. PIRES: Mr. Chairman and Board, if I may, thank you.
Thank you, Susan.
And, again, the standard of review is in the Land Development
February 27, 2024
Page 79
Code, and we've mentioned that in our PowerPoint. I won't read all
of it to you in great detail, but the Board considers the interpretation
of the County Manager or designee and public testimony in light of a
number of documents: The Growth Management Plan, the Future
Land Use Map, the Land Development Code, our official zoning
atlas, but the zoning atlas is not at issue. And the Board has the
authority to either adopt the interpretation with or without
modifications or conditions or to reject the interpretation. We are of
the opinion that the interpretation should be rejected.
The Board does not have the authority to modify or reject it
unless the Board finds the determination is not supported by
substantial competent evidence or that the official interpretation is
contrary to the Growth Management Plan, Future Land Use Map, or
the Land Development Code. And we believe we've met that test.
In our opinion, the official interpretation is not supported by
substantial competent evidence. We've mentioned that there was no
definitional reference in the official interpretation mentioned at all.
We gave a couple of accepted definitions in our interpretation request
and appeal, Black's Law Dictionary and Merriam-Webster. Mr. Bosi
used none.
We also went to and looked at other sections of the Land
Development Code, like Ms. Swift has testified to, where it talked
about neighborhood and the context of neighborhood, and there is no
definition in the code, but its proximity and utilization with other
zoning and land uses indicates, again, consistent with Ms. Swift's
testimony, that neighborhood has meaning; it's locational, and it's
limited in geographic scope, and it's not regional or various
communities.
We believe the competent substantial evidence in the record
supports rejecting and reversing the official interpretation and
determining that the word "neighborhood" has meaning and has a
February 27, 2024
Page 80
common sense meaning. It's a word of limitation, a geographic
limitation and, again, does not mean various neighborhoods or the
greater community.
So that, in conclusion, we believe that the correct application
and the basis for the rejection of the interpretation is that a
neighborhood fitness and community center is a use that only serves
persons in a limited geographic area, i.e., neighborhood.
When there's a readily identifiable community or neighborhood,
such as Lakewood, such as Riviera Golf Estates, such as Hibiscus,
such as Quail Run, all of those nine golf course zoned areas that have
residential components surrounding or in the middle of these golf
course districts, those are readily identifiable communities or
neighborhoods and so that the primary uses testified to by Ms. Swift
in our opinion is -- that's why you should reject, in our opinion,
request to reject the interpretation by Mr. Bosi, that the primary use
or uses of any neighborhood fitness or community center must be
limited to serve persons owning or residing in that community or
neighborhood.
In other words, our request is, we believe -- we ask the Board to
find that the official interpretation, plain and simple, should not be
upheld. We request that the Board, sitting as the Board of Zoning
Appeals, reject the decision in the official interpretation, find that the
official interpretation is not supported by competent substantial
evidence, find that the official interpretation is contrary to the Growth
Management Plan or the LDC, find that a neighborhood fitness and
community center is a use that only serves persons in a limited
geographic area.
And, again, we request that, and we -- if you have any questions
of us at this time or if, Mr. Chairman or members of the Board, or do
you want to wait until a later point in time?
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Kowal.
February 27, 2024
Page 81
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you, Chairman.
Tony, if you could just -- I know there was, what, nine different
communities --
MR. PIRES: Yes.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: -- that pertain to this that,
basically, this will have an influence on.
Do you know offhand how many of those communities are
gated?
MR. PIRES: A couple of them are, but, again, that's --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So if they're gated, then it's
definitely showing a distinct boundary.
MR. PIRES: Neighborhood, that's correct.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: All right. Thank you, Tony.
MR. PIRES: Yes, sir. I think, for example, I believe Imperial
is gated. I'm not sure about -- I think Quail Creek might be gated.
At least two of them are gated, yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you.
MR. PIRES: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: With that --
MR. PIRES: We also have, if I may, briefly, as part of our
team -- I apologize -- Mr. Salyer, the president of Lakewood
Community Services, Mr. Chairman, if the Board could grant the
indulgence of Mr. Salyer speaking as part of our team presentation.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Sure. Go ahead.
MR. SALYER: Yes. I assure you, I'm a lot quicker than they
are. Again, my name is Charles Salyer. I'm the president of
Lakewood.
The word "neighborhood," to me, the definition -- I was thinking
about, you know, what kind of neighbors are we talking about? And
it goes back to my childhood, and I thought about the neighborhood
Sesame Street. Sesame Street was one street, but it was a
February 27, 2024
Page 82
neighborhood, and that's what we're talking about as far as
Lakewood's concerned. We are 977 residents made up of condos,
single-family, and villas. We are a neighborhood, and it's our -- in
ourselves. We are not anything else but a neighborhood.
We are surrounded by neighborhoods, and one of them they
mentioned was Glades. It's to our west. To our north, we have
Foxfire, which is a neighborhood. To our east is Kings Lake, which
is a neighborhood all in themselves. And to our south is a
community neighborhood park, which is Sugden Park, and that's your
definition of a neighborhood community park, and I think that she
alluded to that earlier.
The other thing I'd like to mention, and it's the last one, is most
of you -- most of the commissioners on your websites ask questions
so you can get your newsletter, and most of you in that particular
document asked for what neighborhood are you in. It doesn't say
what county are you in; it doesn't say who you're affiliated with. It
says what neighborhood are you in. We are Lakewood, and we are a
community -- thank you -- and a neighborhood.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner McDaniel.
MR. PIRES: If I may briefly, there's one other impacted
property owner, and they may be testifying too. Riviera Golf
Estates, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Sure.
Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Just as a point of
clarification, I just want to make it very clear that we're not having a
discussion today with regard to Lakewood. This is a -- this is a
discussion about our Land Development Code and the official
interpretation of what, in fact, a neighborhood is. Lakewood will or
will not be another discussion at some particular stage.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Mr. Pires, are you finished?
February 27, 2024
Page 83
MR. PIRES: Yes, sir. And, again, Mr. Chairman, thank you
for allowing me to comment. Katie Berkey, an attorney for Riviera
Golf Estates property owners, she would also be an impacted
property owner representative.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Mr. Bosi, have you got questions, or do
you want to go ahead into your presentation?
MR. BOSI: Thank you. Mike Bosi, Planning and Zoning
director.
Just three questions to ask the appellants before I start a
presentation. To anyone on your team, Tony. Do you know what
year that the conditional use for neighborhood fitness/community
center was added to the golf course zoning district?
MR. PIRES: I believe it was 2017.
MR. BOSI: It was 2017. And then you reviewed the minutes
of that, and you realized how much discussion they had upon the
actual conditional uses that were being added, correct?
MR. PIRES: Very limited. It just was that -- my recollection
is that the transcript -- the executive summary, and the transcript had
maybe one paragraph in the executive summary, a little bit in the
transcript, and the idea was to add some additional uses to try to
soften the impacts of the notice of intent to convert ordinance.
That's how I understood it.
MR. BOSI: And because -- I asked that because your witness,
your testimony was, you know, the specific intention behind the term
"neighborhood" and the limited factor that was associated with it.
And in that, another question -- in that term "neighborhood
fitness/community center," how many modifiers are in that term?
MR. PIRES: Neighborhood. Neighborhood is a modifier for
fitness and community center. It's not -- it doesn't say neighborhood
fitness center and community center. It doesn't say neighborhood
fitness center, comma, community center. It says neighborhood
February 27, 2024
Page 84
fitness and community center.
MR. BOSI: It says neighborhood fitness and community
center. You could read it two ways. And there's many instances
within our Land Development Code -- and if you look at even,
say -- if you look at the conservation zoning district, it allows nature
preserves and conservation uses. They're not the same. They can
be either/or.
So when I asked you how many modifiers you saw, there's this
strange focus upon neighborhood, neighborhood fitness, and there is
a disregard for community center. A community center has a -- and
when we talked about market reach, the market reach was first
introduced within your actual request for an official interpretation.
You're the one who introduced the term "market reach," but a
community center is something that reaches beyond an individual
neighborhood, and when you have -- you reference a number of
commercial properties and commercial zoning districts for physical
fitness. We have three types of commercial properties. We have
neighborhood commercial, which serves a very limited area; we
have -- we have community commercial, which expands that area;
and then you have a regional area. So each one of those have
meanings and have limitations.
And, finally, do you know the resolutions that approve the pool
and the tennis court that was associated -- that's associated with the
Lakewood golf course?
MR. PIRES: I have not reviewed those. Do you have those
for the record today?
MR. BOSI: No, they're -- there are no resolutions. Those
tennis courts -- the tennis court and the pool were approved as part of
the Land Development Code that allowed for -- within the golf
course zoning district, and that's an important part of the presentation
that I'm going to make to try to establish how staff arrived upon the
February 27, 2024
Page 85
official interpretation.
And with that, I'll move on to my presentation.
MR. PIRES: Mr. Chairman, if I may, it appears that Mr. Bosi
was not only questioning me but also testifying. So I wonder if I
have an opportunity, just on some of the points he mentioned, if I can
ask one or two questions.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Briefly. Go ahead.
MR. PIRES: Mike, what page and line and sentence does the
phrase market -- market reach, market area appear in our request for
interpretation or in the appeal?
MR. BOSI: If I can go pull up the exhibit, I could pinpoint that.
MR. PIRES: Please do that, and maybe at a break, because I
can represent it does not exist.
But I would like you to find that phrase so you can testify to the
Board where it is located in the request for interpretation and in the
appeal filing. If you can do that at some point.
Also, the word "modify" -- isn't it correct that fitness center is a
use, community center is a use, fitness is the modifier, isn't that
correct?
MR. BOSI: No. I believe the modifiers -- the fitness is the
actual -- the activity. The modifier is neighborhood, and the
community is -- community is the modifier to community center.
MR. PIRES: Okay. So neighborhood is a modifier of the
fitness center and community center, correct?
MR. BOSI: No. Neighborhood is the modifier of the fitness
center. Community is the modifier of the center.
MR. PIRES: In the example you gave with regards to preserves
and conservation areas, is there a modifier saying neighborhood in
front of either one of those two words?
MR. BOSI: No. Those were simply said that sometimes
within our Land Development Code we list two uses within the same
February 27, 2024
Page 86
line.
MR. PIRES: Are there any other uses as conditional uses in the
GC zoning district that have the word "neighborhood" in front of the
use?
MR. BOSI: I don't believe so.
MR. PIRES: Are there any other permitted uses in the GC
zoning district that have the term "neighborhood" in front of the use?
MR. BOSI: No.
MR. PIRES: So the only conditional use and the only
permitted use -- the only conditional use in the GC zoning district
that has the modifier "neighborhood" is neighborhood fitness --
MR. BOSI: That is one of the --
MR. PIRES: -- activity and community center; that is the only
one?
MR. BOSI: That's the only one, and it has two modifiers.
MR. PIRES: But it's the only one that has the word
"neighborhood," correct?
MR. BOSI: Correct.
MR. PIRES: Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chair, if I might at this moment, Mr. Pires
mentioned a Katie Berkey. She's on Zoom. I don't know if we
wanted to call on her, or if he wanted her to speak. I wasn't sure.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Did she want to add testimony, Katie?
MS. BERKEY: Yes. And can everyone hear me okay?
CHAIRMAN HALL: No. Let's -- sorry. I didn't understand
you there, so if you have something during the summary, you can add
that to Mr. Pires, but we're going to go ahead and hear Mr. Bosi as
well.
MR. BOSI: Again, Mike Bosi, Planning and Zoning director.
As Tony has indicated, the request for the Board of Zoning
February 27, 2024
Page 87
Appeals to review the appeal issued by myself regarding the type of
uses that qualify are neighborhood fitness and community center, a
conditional use in the golf course zoning district. It's a countywide
interpretation. It's not specific to the Lakewood golf course.
But make no mistake about it, it has a direct relationship upon
the conditional use, STARability. That conditional use has been in
the system since 2001 [sic] trying to seek the neighborhood
fitness/community center conditional use within the golf course, and
the reason why that's important is because Mr. Pires, in his expert
testimony -- and his expert witness have been retained by Lakewood
Services Community who oppose that individual conditional use.
And what they're trying to do and what they're attempting to do
is create this tight, tight box for what that conditional use could be.
And because -- and if they could get the Board of County -- or Board
of Zoning Appeals to agree what that tight box is, well, then that
STARability conditional use could never fit within that conditional
use, couldn't seek the application -- or couldn't seek the ask of the
Board of County Commissioners to evaluate it to whether it is an
appropriate use within that area.
So that's the specific, and that's maybe the bias as to why they've
had such a fixation upon the term "neighborhood" without a
recognition that community -- and the term "community" has
planning implications and has a bearing upon the official
determination that was rendered.
As indicated, the conclusion was that I found that the
Conditional Use No. 7 in the golf course zoning district is
neighborhood fitness and community center is a facility that serves
the fitness and community needs of various neighborhoods and
broader communities, and I utilized the Golden Gate Community
Center provided as a specific example. Just because that's within the
C-1 zoning district doesn't mean that that's not a use that could
February 27, 2024
Page 88
qualify as a community center.
And another aspect I found about the golf course zoning
district -- and this gets into -- it gets into the market area, and I'll
touch base upon that in a second. But two of the four uses within the
zoning district, golf course and disc golf course, they're unique
attractors in that they -- they're uses that draw from a wider market
area than serving just neighborhood or commercial. And, in fact,
golf course -- there's a number of golf courses within the county, you
know -- contribute to a draw from a community, from a
neighborhood, from a region, from the state, from the U.S., and also
internationally people come to Naples to golf.
So we can establish that the golf course zoning district has a
number of uses, and its primary use, something that draws something
from an international crowd. And the distinction is made to clarify
that the primary use, like I said, is something that has a wider market
area.
And what I -- the reason why I talk about market area, when it
comes down to it, it's not how far your draw is, it's what's the number
of trips that are going to be associated with that facility, and that has
a bearing upon why I think that the use that we added in 2017 has an
allocation withinto the conditional use because of the extra and
additional traffic that could be generated by that use in relationship to
what would be a neighborhood-serving type of a use.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Could you repeat that, please, Mike. I
didn't catch all of that.
MR. BOSI: So the market draw has everything to do with the
intensity, the number of trips that can be attracted by an individual
use, and what we did in 2017, we added physical fit -- neighborhood
fitness and community center as a conditional use. And why we
added that as a conditional use, we were worried about the intensity
of that use and the amount of traffic that that could bring into the
February 27, 2024
Page 89
individual neighborhood, and we made it a conditional use because
we needed -- we wouldn't make it a matter of right. We wanted to
understand that use and what was that impact upon the local area.
And if you look, so in 2017 when we did the -- when we added
the intent-to-convert process, we also modified -- during that process,
we also modified the golf course zoning district. And if you look on
the left-hand side, we added hiking trails, walkways, passive
recreations, and disc golf as permitted uses, but then under B, the
accessory uses -- so these are accessory uses. These are uses. It
doesn't require a public hearing. They're accessory to the primary
uses.
We added a little modification. We said, recreation facilities
that serve an integral part of a golf course -- it used to say "the
permitted use," included but not limited to clubhouse, community
center, building -- community center building, practice driving range,
shuffleboard courts, swimming pools, tennis facilities, snack shops,
and restrooms. So those are all uses.
Notice I said community center, and I said shuffleboard,
swimming pools, tennis facilities, things that could be type
of -- neighborhood fitness types of things. Those were accessory
uses, and that's how the swimming pool -- that's how the swimming
pool and that tennis court was developed within the Lakewood
zoning district. It wasn't a public hearing. It was an accessory use
to that golf course.
And then we also added conditional uses. We had one
conditional use at the time in 2017. We added 10 additional uses.
As you can see, cemetery, equestrian facilities, museums, but we also
added neighborhood fitness and community centers.
If you look at that -- but as an accessory use, the community
center was already a use. That's a use that was already allowed as an
accessory use to the golf course. So we said we're adding that as a
February 27, 2024
Page 90
conditional use, not because it's the same limited geographic area that
it's drawing from, but because that geographic area that it's going to
be drawing from is much wider, and we're concerned about that
impact, so we felt that that use needed to have a conditional use so
the Board of County Commissioners could evaluate that use upon its
impact towards the neighborhood.
And if you look, we also added courts, including bocce ball,
basketball court, handball, pickleball courts. Those were also
referenced as an accessory use. But we said there was also
some -- maybe some instances of uses that reach beyond the
neighborhood, and we added those, and we added those as
conditional uses.
And they did a great job of saying what a conditional use is, why
we have to have an evaluation, how it's not appropriate just as a
matter of right. And as I said -- and as I indicated, we added a use
that was already allotted for as an accessory use. We added it as a
conditional use because those are the uses that reach beyond that
individual neighborhood.
The appeal in the supported materials seeks, you know, to
reverse my determination as the official interpreter of the Land
Development Code. And he wants -- and the request is to have the
conditional use be something that only serves this small, limited
geographic area of the homes that surround the golf course.
Specifically, as he said, it can't serve anyone outside of the
limited geographic area, and it suggests no more than 500 feet. No
more than 500 feet around the perimeter of the facility. That's all
that we should be serving.
So I had my GIS folks take the area that the STARability
conditional use would be requesting and 500 feet, and that's what you
get in terms of the number of structures that are around there. And
that totals -- that's 373 dwelling units, and that's within 500 feet.
February 27, 2024
Page 91
You take our average 2.4 persons per household, that's 895 persons.
So you're -- the appellant is trying to tell the Board of County
Commissioners that we devised a conditional use specifically for
a -- for a use that would potentially have 892 people who live within
500 feet of that facility. I'm not sure, following the laws of logic,
why we would want or require that to be a conditional use if the
facilities were designed into serving residents in dwelling units
within a tight, close proximity. Those are -- that's an accessory use
to the golf course because it's serving not only the golf course, but it's
serving the primary residential uses that are around that individual
golf course.
As I said, it supports. I believe the applicants made a great case
for the accessory use, a use that would be customarily associated with
the golf course and the residential community surrounding it.
And once again, the number of things I read as -- that were
within that accessory use: Clubhouse, that was one of them. That
was developed during Lakewood; the swimming pool; and the tennis
facility. Those were also recognized within the accessory uses.
Now, if I go to Lakewood golf course and I pay my greens fee,
do you think that would -- that gets me to -- allowed to jump into the
swimming pool, or do you think that allows me to use the tennis
court? No. It allows me to go to use the golf course. So that
swimming pool and the tennis facility, it's just there for decoration?
I don't think so. I think it's there for the surrounding residential
community, as it was developed. It was developed as an accessory
use to that golf course for the -- for the benefit of the surrounding
residential community. That's what the accessory use is.
So what Mr. Pires is arguing, let's take that accessory use,
duplicate it under a conditional use, and what benefit would we be
gaining?
What the conditional use was for is for something that's going to
February 27, 2024
Page 92
bring something a little bit more intense to the neighborhood, that
needs a little more analysis from the Planning Commission and from
the Board of County Commissioners before we can go ahead and say
that it's appropriate, or there may be some conditions that need to be
placed upon it to make it more cohesive with the neighborhood, or
there may be a recommendation of a denial because it just doesn't fit.
And I won't go through this -- summarizing the applicant's -- the
applicant's testimony -- or arguments.
So in terms of providing some additional -- some additional
backing of the term of what a community center is, see, their focus
was upon a neighborhood fitness, and I guess my focus is upon the
community center. And community center means -- and this is from
Law Insider. Community center means a facility owned and
operated by a government agency or non-profit community
organization for -- the purpose for the facility is recreation, social
welfare, community improvement or public assembly. It also could
mean a building and its related facilities, educational, cultural,
recreational activities, what's operated by a not-for-profit.
And, finally, the way that our Land Development Code works
for uses is an SIC code, and if you look at the SIC code for
community centers, here is a number of examples of what you would
get: Youth development centers, senior centers, cultural centers,
neighborhood centers, community recreational centers, health and
wellness centers, multicultural centers, family resource centers. All
of those facilities do not have a geographical base. Some of those
are communities that aren't geographical based but are attribute
based.
So in closing, staff feels that the intention of the neighborhood
fitness/community center being placed in the conditional use portion
of the golf course was intentional because we envisioned uses beyond
that of -- beyond that of what's allowed as an accessory use.
February 27, 2024
Page 93
And with that, staff is requesting the Board of County
Commissioners to uphold the interpretation provided by the zoning
director.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you. Questions, anyone?
Mr. Lombardo, do you want to ask questions?
MR. LOMBARDO: Yes, please.
Good morning. Let's start with modifiers. The use is a
neighborhood -- sorry. The use is a fitness center, correct?
MR. BOSI: That is one of them.
MR. LOMBARDO: And the other use is the community
center?
MR. BOSI: Correct.
MR. LOMBARDO: So both fitness and community are
modifying center?
MR. BOSI: I wouldn't agree with that. I wouldn't agree with
that.
MR. LOMBARDO: So what is the word "fitness" doing?
MR. BOSI: Fitness is modifying -- fitness -- fitness is the
activity. Fitness is the activity; it's a use. The modifier is
neighborhood.
MR. LOMBARDO: So you're saying that the two uses here are
neighborhood fitness, that's one use, and then one use is community
center?
MR. BOSI: Correct.
MR. LOMBARDO: Are you familiar with the common rules
for coordinated adjectives?
MR. BOSI: I was probably a bad student in English, so no.
MR. LOMBARDO: So let me ask, in the use on the actual
Land Development Code, is there a comma between neighborhood
and fitness?
MR. BOSI: No, there's not.
February 27, 2024
Page 94
MR. LOMBARDO: Okay. So if there were to be an English
grammar rule that said that when you have multiple modifiers, you
need a comma, would you agree that that's not present here?
MR. BOSI: I'd agree that that's not present.
MR. LOMBARDO: And so would you agree that it's then
possible that the word "neighborhood" is modifying two concepts, a
fitness center and a community center?
MR. BOSI: No, I would not agree with that.
MR. LOMBARDO: That you would agree that's not possible?
MR. BOSI: It could be a possibility, but I -- there's a number of
instances within our Land Development Code where we list two uses
that can be either/or or combination of.
MR. LOMBARDO: I agree with that, and I liked your example
that you gave.
In this case, there's a third word -- or, sorry, I guess there's
a -- yeah, there's a fourth word, and there's no comma. And so I'm
just trying to figure out what the significance of the fourth word is
here.
But let's move on to the list of uses. The -- why wasn't a
physical fitness center put in as a conditional use; do you know?
MR. BOSI: I'm not sure. My guess would be the physical
fitness center is the use we use in the commercial zoning district.
MR. LOMBARDO: Do you use, anywhere else in the Land
Development Code, a fitness as a use, a neighborhood fitness?
MR. BOSI: Off the top of my head -- the Land Development
Code is a pretty extensive book -- there may be other utilizations. I
can't think of it in terms of a use, but...
MR. LOMBARDO: So is there any difference between a
neighborhood fitness and a physical fitness center?
MR. BELLOWS: It would have to -- my -- my understanding
would be the neighborhood fitness would be more localized, and a
February 27, 2024
Page 95
physical fitness, if it's in a C-3 or C-4, which is based more upon
community or regional type of commercial, would have an expanded
market area.
MR. LOMBARDO: Okay. And so if the word
"neighborhood" applied to community center here, if it did, would it
be -- would it also be similarly localized?
MR. BOSI: If it applied to community center, if you needed a
modifier to modify a modifier.
MR. LOMBARDO: Would you agree that it's possible for a
word to have two modifiers or more?
MR. BOSI: Yeah. I guess we can -- we can accept that.
MR. LOMBARDO: Okay. And in your slides and in your
argument, you talked about the 500-foot radius. Do you
acknowledge that that was only one of three possible interpretations
that we put forward?
MR. BOSI: I recognize five or a thousand feet. A thousand
feet, simple math, would probably double that to --
MR. LOMBARDO: No. What I'm asking is, in the applicant's
appeal, there was -- there were other interpretations suggested besides
just the 500-foot radius. But it seems that your PowerPoint focused
on the 500-foot radius. Do you acknowledge that we suggested
immediate neighborhoods in readily identified communities?
MR. BOSI: I did, and I think within my official interpretation,
I said that the 500 feet invalidates your indication that it has to serve
all of the neighborhoods within the Lakewood community.
MR. LOMBARDO: No. And I'm just trying to get it
acknowledged that that was provided as an example, and there were
other examples provided. So it wasn't the only argument?
MR. BOSI: Correct, yes.
MR. LOMBARDO: Okay. Thank you.
When it comes to the other uses, the other -- the permitted uses,
February 27, 2024
Page 96
the accessory uses, and the other conditional uses in the GC district,
do any of them have the word "neighborhood" involved anywhere in
it?
MR. BOSI: No.
MR. LOMBARDO: Okay. And so what is the significance,
then, of the word "neighborhood" in this use?
MR. BOSI: As I said within my official interpretation, I
believe it is a neighborhood fitness that serves the fitness needs of
various neighborhoods.
MR. LOMBARDO: Do you recall testifying at the food truck
hearing in October of 2021?
MR. BOSI: Yes, I do.
MR. LOMBARDO: And do you recall testifying that the word
"neighborhood" means one neighborhood?
MR. BOSI: In the context of that commercial zoning district, I
do, yes.
MR. LOMBARDO: Was the word "neighborhood" different in
either situation?
MR. BOSI: I believe, yes, they are. Neighborhood
commercial compared to neighborhood fitness?
MR. LOMBARDO: What's the difference?
MR. BOSI: Neighborhood commercial is a -- is a zoning
district that services the needs of an individual neighborhood. A
neighborhood fitness is a -- in my opinion, a facility that serves the
fitness needs of various neighborhoods.
MR. LOMBARDO: No further questions. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Mr. Yovanovich?
MR. YOVANOVICH: Just have a few.
CHAIRMAN HALL: I see you coming in strong, coming in
hot.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Yes, coming in hot.
February 27, 2024
Page 97
I'll deal with the last -- Mike, I have questions of you.
MR. BOSI: Sure.
MR. YOVANOVICH: And I want to work my way backwards.
Let's stick with the food truck interpretation.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: State your name and why
you're here, please.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Sorry. For the record, my name is
Rich Yovanovich, and I'm here for STARability, which I think is
basically the genesis of why we're all here today. That's the elephant
in the room.
Let's go back to the food truck analogy. In the food truck
analogy, I believe you were of the opinion that a neighborhood use
was a permitted use in the -- in that case, the C-3 zoning district,
correct?
MR. BOSI: Correct.
MR. YOVANOVICH: And in that particular case, I think I
appealed your interpretation, and the Board disagreed and said the
C-3 zoning district was an attractor, and I advocated that that requires
a conditional use, correct?
MR. BOSI: Are you making me say that, yeah, you won that?
Yeah, you did.
MR. YOVANOVICH: But that -- we should do a conditional
use, correct?
MR. BOSI: Correct.
MR. YOVANOVICH: And exactly what you're saying today --
MR. BOSI: Correct.
MR. YOVANOVICH: -- is that a use that is expansive requires
the conditional-use process, correct?
MR. BOSI: Correct.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Would you agree -- and I'm reading
from the memo from Mr. Pires' planner. Would you agree the
February 27, 2024
Page 98
definition of a community center is a facility used for recreational,
social, educational, and cultural activities?
MR. BOSI: Correct, yes.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Now, would you agree that the
definition -- again, reading from their memo -- is a community. A
community is defined as a group of people living in the same place or
having a particular characteristic in common?
MR. BOSI: And I agreed with that in my interpretation, yes.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Yes. So it's not limited to a geographic
region. It can be limited to common characteristics, correct?
MR. BOSI: Correct.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Okay. Now, would you agree that a
use that is an integral part of the golf course that wants to use the
community center for the golf course, as long as it's an integral use of
the community center and integral part of the golf course, it would be
a permitted use, correct?
MR. BOSI: I believe it would be an accessory use.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Right, I'm sorry.
So it could be there as a matter of right?
MR. BOSI: Correct.
MR. YOVANOVICH: So as long as that community is an
integral part of the golf course, we don't have to go through the
conditional-use process, correct?
MR. BOSI: Per the code, correct.
MR. YOVANOVICH: That's all I have.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: What else have we got?
CHAIRMAN HALL: Do we want --
MR. YOVANOVICH: I've got my case.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Yes, Mr. Yovanovich, how long are you
going to take, do you think?
MR. YOVANOVICH: Fifteen minutes.
February 27, 2024
Page 99
CHAIRMAN HALL: Fifteen minutes? All right. Well, let's
go ahead and hear you, and then we'll break for lunch after we ask
questions.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Okay. I'm going to just do a couple
introductory comments, and then I want to bring up Jessica
Harrelson, who is our planner, and she's testified in front of you
many times and has 20 years of experience over -- in Collier County
and has done over 50 projects in Collier County. I'd like you to
accept her as an expert so I don't have to go through her entirety of
her --
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So moved, Mr. Chairman.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Second.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Second.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Third.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Okay. We're going to be able to
condense our presentation because Mr. Bosi addressed a lot of what
Jessica's going to testify to in her testimony, but I think it's important
to point out that none of the testimony provided by their planner
addressed the term "community center," and that's by definition and
design because I just read to you what her definitions were in her
report. She doesn't want you to look at community center as a
separate use, because if she does and if you do, the community center
is expansive. It applies to a type of -- it can be a grouping of people,
which Mr. Bosi pointed out in his testimony, and it talks about a
much wider area.
We are not disagreeing that there is a method to address what
Mr. Pires talked about as an inappropriate use. Remember, that's
how he started out. What's an appropriate use by those residences?
And that's the conditional-use process. That's the process. That's
the process Mr. Bosi says we have to go through. That's the process
that community centers have to go through if they're not an integral
February 27, 2024
Page 100
part of the golf course.
So Jessica's going to get up there and give you some of our
legislative history and our testimony regarding that specific issue, and
we're available to answer any questions, and hopefully we'll get you
to lunch at 1 o'clock or sooner.
MS. HARRELSON: Good morning. For the record, Jessica
Harrelson. I'm a certified planner here to give my professional
opinion as it relates to neighborhood fitness and community centers,
which is Permitted Conditional Use Item No. 7 of the golf course and
recreational use zoning district.
My professional opinion is that these are two distinct,
independent land uses. And I'll run through the information for the
basis and reasoning for my opinion.
So there are other examples from the Collier County Land
Development Code where the coordinating conjunction "and"
separates distinct land uses as one line item. Conditional Use No. 4
of the C-4 zoning district, automotive dealers and gasoline service
stations.
Principal Use 48 of the C-4 zoning district, eating and drinking
establishments. Conditional Use No. 2 of the golf course zoning
district, cemeteries and memorial gardens. These uses may be
somewhat related but discernibly separate land uses.
Community centers are recognized within the ITE trip and
parking generation manuals identified by Land Use Code 495 and
defined as stand-alone public facilities similar to and including
YMCAs. Health and fitness clubs are separately identified as Land
Use Code 492 defined as a facility that primarily focuses on
individual fitness and training.
And as you can see at the bottom of each of these land uses, the
other is related to the other land use but, again, separate.
Community centers are recognized by the standard industrial
February 27, 2024
Page 101
classification system as SIC Code 8322, and for reference, the system
is utilized by the county for specifying land uses within the Land
Development Code.
Physical fitness centers, again separate, listed as SIC Code 7991.
And then just getting into some of the history of the golf course
conversion, the county adopted the -- implemented the golf course
conversion process and expanded the list of permitted and conditional
uses of the golf course and recreational use zoning district in 2017.
The Board directed staff to pursue the amendment to address golf
course conversions on April 12th, 2016.
During that hearing, the Board made several points, and I'd like
to highlight just the two you see here made by the Board. Providing
more uses in the golf course zoning district that are compatible by
right may mitigate the need to convert golf courses in the future.
And the second, allowing for additional compatible uses in the
golf course zoning district would inform future property owners with
a golf course view that other uses are allowed, not just a golf course.
County staff also prepared a white paper during that amendment
process, and it includes language that states that the golf course
district be expanded to provide flexibility and alternatives to allow
owners of property zoned golf course additional methods to use and
market their property.
A written summary was done during the amendment, and it
includes language, the property proposed -- the proposed
changes -- sorry -- also provide awareness to property owners that
surround a golf-course-zoned property that it may be redeveloped to a
non-golf-course recreational use by right or through a conditional-use
process.
In addition, the proposed uses provide a golf course owner
additional uses should a conversion prove nonviable.
Through my research, I have found no indication that the
February 27, 2024
Page 102
expanded list of uses be limited to a geographic area and, in fact, the
BCC acknowledged the need to add uses to allow owners of
golf-course-zoned property alternatives to use their property without
the need for a rezone.
And then I know Mike touched on some of this, but reviewing
uses in the golf course zoning district, specifically Accessory Use
Item No. 2 permits recreational facilities including community center
buildings that serve as an integral part of a golf course, and accessory
uses are allowed by right with no need for a public-hearing process.
Neighborhood fitness and community centers, permitted
Conditional Use Item 7 of the golf course zoning district, that are not
planned as an integral part of a golf course must be vetted through the
public-hearing process.
And during the conditional-use process, there were five criteria
reviewed: Consistency with the LDC and the Growth Management
Plan, access to the property, effects on neighboring properties, and
compatibility with adjacent properties.
They require a neighborhood information meeting, which
involves the public during the planning process, and conditional uses,
when approved, contain conditions of approval which may include
items to address compatibility with surrounding land uses. Some
examples include limited hours of operation, enhanced buffering,
increased setbacks, and the use of Dark Skies compliant lighting.
And then I have some key terms here that are being touched on
today, and I really just want to go over the definition of a community
center. It's a place, structure, area, or other facility used for and
providing religious, fraternal, social, or recreational programs and
generally open to the public and designed to accommodate and serve
significant segments of the community. They may also be referred
to as a convention center or a civic center.
And then just to touch on the appellant's point that neighborhood
February 27, 2024
Page 103
fitness and community centers should be limited to a geographic area
guided by the notice distance requirement for neighborhood
information meeting. As stated in the Administrative Code, the
purpose of a NIM is to provide the public with notice of an
impending zoning application. The mail notice requirement is meant
for those that might be most impacted by a proposed land-use change.
In addition to mailed notice, a legal ad is required to be
published in the paper to the general public, and anyone interested
may attend, and everyone, the public at large, has a voice in the
process.
Thank you.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Just one addition to what was just
provided. You have to keep in mind that even for the conditional
use we have to hold a neighborhood information meeting, and we
provide the same notice. That doesn't mean the conditional use is
just limited to -- the people who can use that is just the people who
are invited to the neighborhood information meeting.
The limited application requested by Mr. Pires' client is not
consistent with the notice requirement. The notice requirements are
simply -- if you want to go with his interpretation, the notice is
provided to everybody in Collier County through that ad.
So there are significant notice requirements. They are more
than people who are within the 500 feet that are entitled to use that.
It's more than neighborhoods, however Mr. Pires wants to define that
neighborhood, and it's more than limited application of community as
Mr. Pires would like the term "community" to be applied.
If you have any questions of Jessica or me, we're happy to
answer them; otherwise, I'll come back during our rebuttal time
depending on what we hear from others who present.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Mr. Lombardo.
February 27, 2024
Page 104
MR. LOMBARDO: I have a few questions.
You showed SIC Code 7991.
MS. HARRELSON: Yes.
MR. LOMBARDO: Is that a SIC code for a neighborhood
fitness or just a fitness center generally?
MS. HARRELSON: There is not a specific term in the SIC
codes for neighborhood fitness.
MR. LOMBARDO: And you provided an example of eating
and drinking establishments.
MS. HARRELSON: Correct.
MR. LOMBARDO: If that was neighborhood eating and
drinking establishments, wouldn't that be only localized eating and
regional drinking?
MS. HARRELSON: I think the word "neighborhood" has
many different definitions, and there are definitions in the Land
Development Code such as the neighborhood commercial
zoned -- commercial subdistrict of the Bayshore zoning overlay,
which has countywide attractors such as museums, universities,
colleges, restaurants, bars.
MR. LOMBARDO: But in the examples you gave, cemeteries
and memorials, eating and drinking establishments, there's not an
additional modifying word in those examples?
MS. HARRELSON: No.
MR. LOMBARDO: So in the example SIC Code 7991, this is
just a fitness center at large, correct?
MS. HARRELSON: Yes.
MR. LOMBARDO: And then the community center definition,
the community centers can be also at large, correct?
MS. HARRELSON: Correct.
MR. LOMBARDO: But if -- would you agree if neighborhood
did apply to community center, it would be a localized community
February 27, 2024
Page 105
center, if it did? I'm not saying that's your position.
MS. HARRELSON: Well, again, I think that the word
"neighborhood" has many different definitions.
MR. LOMBARDO: So in this situation --
MS. HARRELSON: And I think that would be up to the
county zoning director to determine what that neighborhood area is.
MR. LOMBARDO: But you would agree that a neighborhood
community center is different than a community center, or you're not
sure?
MS. HARRELSON: I think a community center would be
more for countywide.
MR. LOMBARDO: But what if it was a neighborhood
community center?
MS. HARRELSON: I really can't give you a definition for that.
It's not something that I was able to find in the Land Development
Code or any of the other materials that I researched.
MR. LOMBARDO: Similar to how there's no definition for
neighborhood fitness center?
MS. HARRELSON: Correct.
MR. LOMBARDO: Okay. Thank you. No further questions.
MS. HARRELSON: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: What do you-all want to do? We've got
closing arguments that are 10 minutes each, or -- and then we have
our discussion. Do you want to push through, or do you want to take
a break for lunch?
MR. PIRES: Mr. Chairman, if I may?
CHAIRMAN HALL: Yes.
MR. PIRES: I think the other impacted property owner
is -- Katie Berkey is representing them. She's Zooming in, I believe.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Okay.
MR. PIRES: Just ask the Chair --
February 27, 2024
Page 106
CHAIRMAN HALL: We can hear her real quick.
MR. MILLER: Okay. Ms. Berkey, you've been unmuted.
Please go ahead.
MS. BERKEY: Yes. For the record, my name is Katie Berkey
of Becker & Poliakoff on behalf of Riviera Golf Estates Homeowners
Association, Inc. I am board certified in city, county, and local
government law and also a certified land planner by the American
Institute of Certified Planners in good standing. I hold a dual juris
doctorate and master of city and regional planning degree from the
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
The association operates the residential subdivision surrounding
the Riviera Golf Club and owns property within 175 feet. The
Riviera Golf Club is one of the nine GC-zoned properties already
referenced in the testimony today, and the association and its
residents depend on the golf course for stormwater and floodplain
management.
The association stands to be impacted by the outcome of this
appeal, and we're here today expressing support for the professional
opinion of Susan Swift, AICP, on Lakewood's behalf, and, likewise,
ask the BZA to reverse and set aside the director's determination as to
the conditional-use neighborhood fitness and community center, or
NFCC, in the GC district.
As already discussed, Section 10.08.00.A provides heightened
scrutiny for conditional uses. Conditional uses are those that may be
appropriate in a specific district and compatible with the surrounding
neighborhood if controlled by certain conditions as to number, area,
location, or relation to the neighborhood. Therefore, the term
"neighborhood" is material to the analysis of compatibility.
This qualifier reduces the potential for adverse impacts to a
neighborhood adjacent to a property on which an NFCC is proposed,
for example, in terms of parking to serve a proposed use with
February 27, 2024
Page 107
neighborhood patrons who are proximate enough to walk, as
compared to use by various neighborhoods or a broader community,
which are distant enough to result in more transportation and parking
demands to the detriment of the surrounding neighborhood.
If interpreted too broadly, as the director suggests, then we are
left with a conditional use that presents foreseeable adverse impacts
to and incompatibility with the surrounding area to a degree that may
not be sufficiently mitigated through conditions of approval.
To summarize, words matter. The neighborhood qualifier was
intentional as to location and proximity, and an NFCC, therefore, is
to be located in and for the benefit of the neighborhood within the
immediate vicinity. If the legislative intent was to not limit the
location and proximity of NFCCs, as the county did with physical
fitness centers in the commercial, industrial, and VP zoning districts,
the word "neighborhood" could have been omitted, but a conscious
choice was made to include it.
The importance of the BZA's determination on this appeal
cannot be overstated, as it pertains to nine GC-zoned properties
around the county.
The neighborhood qualifier is not extraneous as the director's
interpretation suggests. To broadly interpret the material term
"neighborhood" in a manner inconsistent with the food-truck-related
interpretation by the director in 2021, for example, renders the
protections afforded by the conditional-use process effectively
meaningless and may have unintended consequences as to the use of
neighborhood elsewhere in the LDC.
For example, as to neighborhood parks, neighborhood traffic
management, compatibility, adverse effects, and adverse influences.
Thank you very much for your time and consideration of this
very important issue.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Great. Thank you, Katie.
February 27, 2024
Page 108
So at this time we'll have closing arguments, so to speak, and the
appellant, and then staff, and then the affected landowner.
MR. PIRES: Mr. Lombardo will do the closing.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Sure.
MS. PATTERSON: Chair?
CHAIRMAN HALL: Yes, ma'am.
MS. PATTERSON: Well, we may need to give the court
reporter a little break here in the next little while also.
CHAIRMAN HALL: You just chirp, and we'll break.
MR. LOMBARDO: All righty. A couple things that we want
to clean up and address, and then we'll get into the argument.
One item that -- certainly, STARability was the impetus for this,
but that's not a piece of the decision today. Today is a question
about what does the code means as it applies broadly across the entire
county.
And there was a lot that was made about one of our alternative
arguments that the neighborhood information meeting with a radius
was a helpful guide as to the size of the service area, but this is not
the argument we're advancing here today. We're arguing that it's
a -- when there's a readily identifiable community, such as
Lakewood, such as Riviera Golf Estates, that that is the neighborhood
for the purposes of this discussion.
And I think what this really comes down to, in full, is modifiers
and the English language, because what -- the argument that's being
advanced by everyone except for Lakewood and Riviera is that
community center, by itself, if you take that out, that can be a larger
regional attractor, but that's not how this is written.
It is our position that it is -- that you should find that
neighborhood modifies fitness center and it modifies community
center. And it was acknowledged by the -- by Ms. Harrelson that
there is no SIC code for neighborhood fitness center. There is no
February 27, 2024
Page 109
SIC code for neighborhood community center. We have SIC codes
for community centers and fitness centers.
So the word "neighborhood" here is -- we're pulling double duty
here. If we were to break this down into sentence diagramming,
which we should have done in the PowerPoint -- and I apologize.
Next time we will sentence diagram. Center is the end-of-the-day
noun. It has two modifies in both cases. It's neighborhood fitness
center, neighborhood community center. And the way that English
denotes when this is not the case is by putting a comma in between
the adjective.
So if it's a neighborhood, comma, fitness and then "and
community center," then we would be in the situation where we have
uncoordinated adjectives. But that's not what was present here.
And this is important more than just an English rant, because
this -- these particular uses drive traffic and all kinds of compatibility
issues inside of these neighborhoods.
And so at the end of the day, this isn't an argument about
esoteric language arts questions. It's an argument about what fits in
a neighborhood. Every single one of these is surrounded by
single-family and condo owners, and if we allow bringing larger uses
like YMCAs or Planet Fitness or Naples Family Fitness Center into
their community through the conditional-use process, that's
inappropriate and not what was intended.
And if we had any questions about this, the Land Development
Code has uses for this. They have physical fitness centers. That
could have been the conditional use. Community center by itself
could have been the use. Both of those have SIC codes. There's no
question. We know what they are. No one's taking an appeal on an
official interpretation.
But here we have a unique custom phrase, "neighborhood fitness
and community center" with no corresponding definition. Maybe
February 27, 2024
Page 110
the direction to staff is to define that term. That could be a separate
conversation. But what we don't think is supportable by competent
substantial evidence, by your Land Development Code, by your
Growth Management Plan, is to take that term and make it fit a larger
market sector than it should apply to. It's a localized concept, and
that's our position.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Great. Thank you.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Would it be appropriate for Mike to
bring it home since it's his opinion?
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Here he comes.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: He's right behind you.
MR. BOSI: Mike Bosi, Planning and Zoning director.
Sometimes when discussing issues and how we interpret and
how we deal with various things that we deal with in our planning
world, I talk to my planners, and also try to adopt that KISS principle
of trying to keep it simple. Sometimes the simple answer is the right
answer, and I think this is that time.
2017, when we added the conditional use for neighborhood
fitness/community center, we already had the provision for a
community center. We already have a provision for a neighborhood
fitness as allowed uses within the context of accessory uses to an
individual golf course when it serves as integral part of that golf
course and the surrounding residential neighborhoods. We added a
conditional use. We added a conditional use that is not a use that's
allowed by right. We added a conditional use that was only allowed
through approval through the Board of County Commissioners or the
Hearing Examiner but had to have satisfied criteria of compatibility
with the existing surrounding land uses. It would -- it defies logic
why we would have the same use that's as an accessory use also be
duplicated as a conditional use.
And with that, staff is asking you to reinforce the Planning and
February 27, 2024
Page 111
Zoning director's interpretation that it is a use that serves the
neighborhood fitness needs of various communities and a broader
community. Thank you.
MR. YOVANOVICH: And just real briefly, I agree with
everything, what Mr. Bosi just said. They are -- they're seeming to
imply by adding this use to the uses we can ask for, we are somehow
imposing that on the neighborhood. We are not imposing that on the
neighborhood because we still have to go through the conditional-use
criteria that does address the impact of bringing that use into the
neighborhood.
They want you to treat it as if we have the right to do this. All
we're saying is we have the right to ask, and we have to show how we
fit within the neighborhood. That's what a community
center -- that's what the community center -- we will have to meet
those criteria, but community center is exactly as Mr. Bosi has
defined it.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I just wanted to ask my
fellow colleagues here, do you-all have a lot of questions? Because
it sounds like the Chair is looking to break. But, I mean, I have
some comments, and I'm ready to make a motion. But if you-all
have a lot of questions, then I don't want to intercept that.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We would probably have
speakers.
CHAIRMAN HALL: We have public speakers.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Do we? Do we have public
speakers?
MR. MILLER: The only speakers we had were Mr. Pires'
team.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I thought we heard from
February 27, 2024
Page 112
everybody. They made closing comments. But, I mean, I leave it
to the Chair. I was just throwing it out there to generate discussion.
CHAIRMAN HALL: I think we can come to a conclusion here
in a few minutes.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Okay. So here's what I'm
going to say just to throw it out. First off, my eighth-grade teacher,
Mrs. Lewis, God rest her soul, would have loved this discussion
about modifiers, commas, identifiers, what the definition of is is, if
you remember that.
Commissioner Saunders said earlier I like to use the word "deep
dive." We just did the deepest dive in history to define the word
"neighborhood." I don't think Mr. Rogers said neighborhood more
than this.
I like what Mr. Bosi said about keeping it simple, and I had
written some notes down here. I get the back and forth and trying to
split hairs on this, that, and the other. But, you know, it was obvious
why Mr. French -- I think maybe a couple years ago when he told me
Mr. Bosi was coming back to the county staff, and I didn't know
Mike Bosi at all, but he said, wow, you're going to really be
impressed by this guy. He does a deep dive. He knows his stuff,
and, you know, he doesn't cut corners.
So, Mike, I've just got to say, I was really impressed with your
answers. And you can -- it can go back and forth. I'm not saying
I'm not impressed with the other side either. I get it; there's a little
hairsplitter here.
But in the end, I think, you know, in this particular case, I'm
about keeping it common sense, not overengineering this thing for
maybe some decision down the road. You know, that was sort of,
like, peppered in here every once in a while.
And me, personally, after everything I heard here, I support
upholding the county -- the current county position and everything
February 27, 2024
Page 113
that Mr. Bosi said, so that's just my position. And I'd make a motion
to do that unless there's more discussion, but I want to just get it
started.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'll second.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'll second the motion for
further discussion, since I'm in the mood for seconding motions for
further discussion today.
And my comments are similar but different, of course.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: What do you mean, of
course?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Especially from you.
The new Land Development Code that we developed back in '17
for the golf course conversion, in my understanding, interpret -- or it
had -- the reference was there was a golf course change. The use
change was going to transpire so, therefore, then, the allowable uses
for that particular area were ultimately going to need to be
contemplated for change.
I personally believe that the conditional-use request process
allows for all of the conditions for a property owner to have the right
to ask. The concerns that were raised by the appellant were
necessarily subject to limitations that may not be put upon an
approved use that's different from the use that's, in fact, there. If the
use was more expansive, if it was more of a regional collector, and
the conditional approval or approval of the conditional-use request
didn't have those proper restrictions, it could have a much larger
negative impact on the local specific area.
I think we maybe should, at some stage, have a discussion
about -- although Mr. Yovanovich alleged that the ads run in the
newspaper and anybody that is interested has the right to show up and
share their two cents, we -- I know in Golden Gate Estates, when I
February 27, 2024
Page 114
first became a commissioner, the use notification change, when a
property user wanted to change the use, they only had to notify
within 500 feet, and in Golden Gate Estates that maybe is only two
neighbors. And then we expanded that to a thousand feet, and still
found that to be prohibitive, and then ultimately raised it to a mile
ring.
Now, a mile ring gets rather cumbersome, and so maybe at a
later date, or we can even talk about it today, but have a discussion
about the actual notice -- the mailing notice processes that are put
upon a property owner to request a use change to be more expansive
than the five -- I don't know which it is. It is 500 feet now?
We should probably have that discussion, if not today, at a later
date. But I think we're -- for all intents and purposes, we're not
discussing STARability or its viability or not today. I think we're
covering our community well with staff's interpretation and holding
up on the conditional use.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Kowal.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you, Chairman.
I guess I'll preface this -- because I kind of am the one who got
this ball rolling at the beginning of this whole thing, because I was
present at the NIMs meeting, the neighborhood information meeting,
the night this was presented to the community and the neighborhood,
and it was well over 300-and-some people in that room.
And maybe I'm guilty of using common sense, because I think at
one point during the presentation everybody saw what was being
presented to be placed on this property in this community, golf
course.
And then the conditional use they were using was this
neighborhood fitness and community center. And once again, I used
common sense. I says, well, I'm looking at what they're presenting,
and I know the definition of neighborhood and community, and I
February 27, 2024
Page 115
said, this doesn't fit. And they just wanted to take it to the HEX and
sort of circumvent the Planning Commission and everything else
because they felt it fit one of these criteria. Number seven, to be
exact.
And once again, I says, well, I know what I'm looking at, I know
what was presented, and I know the definition of these -- of this
particular line, and I don't think it fits.
Now, fast forward. I know we're not discussing STARability
here today. But what this did is it kind of got the ball rolling of
requests from, you know, the people that were represented by the
community to get more clarity on the definition that was used -- or
the words used in that Line 7, and I think that's what brought us to
where we are today and then, through more research, finding out that,
you know, we're talking about nine different communities here in
Collier County. And that's what we're talking about today is we're
talking about making a decision what the true definition of
neighborhood is and community. And it will affect, possibly affect
these other nine communities today in our decision.
And that's why I asked that particular question of Tony earlier
about -- out of these nine, how many are gated communities. And I
believe the answer was two. So by that, if we support what the staff
is saying the definition is, are we then violating the sanctity of these
gated communities by saying, well, you really don't have a choice.
You know, we could put a YMCA on your golf course, and you have
to let people through your gate on the roads you maintain, you
upkeep, not the county, and just by the definition of these words, are
we possibly opening that can of worms today?
And the other thing is, in this day and age we're so concerned
about Bert Harris lawsuits. Now, if we start changing the definition
of neighborhoods, in my eyes, would that open us up down the road
for more people to request different things on golf courses because
February 27, 2024
Page 116
they say, well, I could put a Planet Fitness on there, and we deny
them, now are we subject to a Bert Harris lawsuit? So I think words
do matter, and I think definitions truly matter.
So, you know, with me, in my opinion, I feel this decision is a
lot more than just talking about STARability, and this decision's
going to affect a lot of communities within our county. And like we
heard earlier today, you know, our commissioners don't care about
other than their own district, and that's not true. I'm thinking outside
of my district, you know. Two of these gated communities aren't in
my district, and I think we have a duty to protect them.
So I have a tendency to go with the petitioner today, and I think
the definition doesn't fit that we were given -- that we gave him when
he was asked. The neighborhood is specifically to a group of people
that influence that area as neighborhood or even maintain it as a
neighborhood, like a gated community, so...
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: That's my opinion.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well, yes. And in -- can
I -- I'm going to address you, Commissioner Kowal. I don't disagree
at all with what you're saying. I mean, you were there at the
neighborhood meeting. I think that the specific neighborhood
meeting that you attended had to do with a particular use that was
going to have an extremely large impact on the neighborhood where
the use change was being requested.
There's no -- now, there's a difference between a gated
community and a non-gated community. And aren't we, though,
protecting the rights of property owners and the neighborhood at the
same time by allowing for a conditional-use request for a larger
neighborhood with restrictions if the use is approved? Wouldn't we
still be protecting that neighborhood if -- because that was
February 27, 2024
Page 117
what -- that's what's being -- that was what was alleged by the nice
lady that's zooming in.
If there weren't proper restrictions put on the use,
those -- because it's already -- already been suggested that the use
request would be more intense than the community fitness center or
the neighborhood community center and the community fitness
center.
Wouldn't we -- if we didn't put those additional restrictions on,
that could have a negative impact on a closer -- on a closer proximity
to that use request. And so we wouldn't necessarily approve -- I
wouldn't necessarily approve a conditional-use request without
having necessary restrictions in place.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: But once again, I think
everybody has a right to ask, but the way the process was going, they
weren't going to bring it before the Planning Commission. They
were going to only take it to a HEX because they felt it qualified as a
neighborhood fitness and community center, and that's what got us
here, because I requested that it goes before the Planning
Commission, and then this representation then took it a step further
on their own to start to ask questions about definition of the actual
verbiage in that conversion process --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: -- to clarify it and identify it. I
think -- that's why I'm saying today, I think it's a slippery slope if we
broadly, with a broad brush, say, you know, a neighborhood could be
multiple neighborhoods, you know, coming to this specific location,
and that's what we're saying with this definition.
When we have a gated community, I think that's a different ball
game, and these two qualify. It can happen in the future. And if
we -- that language presented here today, and we agree with it, there's
a possibility it could be challenged.
February 27, 2024
Page 118
And I think that's what I'm trying to protect us from, in a way,
by saying let's use common sense. I grew up in an area, that, you
know -- bear with me, people. But, you know, we lived in certain
areas, and if you lived in the Polish section of town, you went there to
get Polish food, and if you lived in the Hill district, you went there
for soul food. You went to, you know, Squirrel Hill for Jewish food,
but those restaurants wouldn't support in a particular neighborhood.
They only existed in those neighborhoods because they're supported
by the neighbors around them, but you can always go there. But you
couldn't put a soul food restaurant in Squirrel Hill. It would
probably close down in two weeks.
So the definition of the neighborhood is what's supporting what's
there or what's not there. And I just don't want to dilute
"neighborhood" in saying, it's a broad spectrum of all neighborhoods,
and we could put it on this spot. I don't think that's true. I
don't -- my personal opinion. But I'm only one opinion of five.
So that's my stance is I feel that if we look at this definition and
we alter the definition of neighborhood itself, we're opening a
slippery slope for other people to come forward, and then we have to
answer -- you know, we allow it to be interpreted that way, then they
have an argument, if we deny them, like you said, through the
process, for a Bert Harris lawsuit, because they're going to use our
very own language against us. So that's all I'm saying, so...
CHAIRMAN HALL: Go ahead, real quick.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: So the discussion point -- and
I'm not arguing with you. I agree with you. And the one issue that
I have -- that I contest is a use change going to the HEX. A use
change such as what we're proposing here, especially when it's
contested and there's as much community input, shouldn't go to the
HEX. It should go to the Planning Commission, and it should come
to this Board of County Commissioners.
February 27, 2024
Page 119
Now, if our processes are set up to allow for that because
of -- because of an interpretation, that is -- that is an issue that I have,
specifically. But I -- I still want the right -- I prefer the right for a
property owner to ask. Even if you couldn't put a particular type of
restaurant in a particular neighborhood, that the property owner of
that restaurant should have that right to ask even if it isn't successful.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: But you make my point exactly.
I don't have a problem with the ask. I have a problem with changing
a definition of neighborhood and giving the ability not to ask.
Because when they take the definition of neighborhood that's being
presented to us today by staff, they will go straight to the HEX.
That's what I'm trying to prevent.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I understand.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you.
Mr. Pires, could you put up on the screen that map that showed
the nine different communities that would be potentially impacted by
this.
MR. PIRES: Troy, can you help me as to which --
MR. MILLER: I'm trying to, Tony.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Come on, Troy. You're under pressure.
MR. PIRES: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: You were there.
MR. PIRES: Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Is that it?
MR. PIRES: Yes, sir. And --
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah, that's what I'm looking
at.
One of the things that I've become greatly concerned about and,
quite frankly, it's one of the reasons why I presented the issue of the
moratorium potentially on Immokalee Road and Vanderbilt Beach
February 27, 2024
Page 120
Road and one of the reasons why I wanted to have a discussion
concerning the structure of government going into -- or the
Commission going into the long future was that we are
doing -- making decisions that have a very negative impact
potentially on various neighborhoods. And I want to be very careful
in not making decisions that may benefit a particular group at the
expense of the people that live here, have invested here, and live in
these neighborhoods.
And so I'm tending to agree with Commissioner Kowal in terms
of this particular issue. But I want to see where these facilities are.
And it looks like, from just looking at the map here, that there's
several of them, at least four down at the bottom, that I think would
probably be in District 1. It looks like there's a couple in
District 2 -- or several in District 2. I don't know that there are any
in District 3. Well, Quail West, but that's -- I believe that's a gated
community, and I don't think anything we decide on property within
a gated community's going to particularly affect that community.
But I am concerned about the others.
And so I think my inclination is to side with and agree with
Commissioner Kowal. I just don't know what the potential impacts
would be on these neighbors, and I don't want to -- I don't want to go
down that path.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you.
MR. BOSI: Chair, sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to provide
a clarification. This decision will have no effect upon the process to
whether a conditional use goes to the HEX or goes to the Planning
Commission or the Board of County Commission. I just wanted to
make that clear.
Anytime that we have a conditional, as long as it doesn't require
the EAC review, it's considered a minor conditional use and is
scheduled for HEX, and then if there's community concern of it,
February 27, 2024
Page 121
anyone -- the Board of County Commissioners, specifically the
district commissioner, can request that that hearing not go to the
HEX, go to the Planning Commission, and go to the Board of County
Commissioners.
This official interpretation has no bearing upon that standard
practice. That practice will be maintained moving forward. I just
wanted to provide clarification. This is only whether the conditional
use for No. 7 within the Golden Gate -- or within the golf course
zoning district is limited to a specific geographic area, and that's the
ask today. I just want to provide that clarification.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All right. Thanks, Mike.
The way that I understood this is if we limit the community,
then there's no ask. If we broaden the community, then there's a
definite ask.
And I was really prepared to keep -- to keep that, the broadened
community, so that people have the right to ask. But when I start
thinking about it and as I listened today, we're talking about golf
course conversions. We're not talking about C-2, C-3, C-4 at-large
zoning.
And I think it's clear and -- I think it's clear that we're talking
about the neighborhood and the community surrounding the golf
course area. And as a conditional use, if a golf course area does not
have a community center, they have a conditional use to put that in, a
place to play bridge, a place to have wedding receptions, a place for
the community -- that immediate community to use as their center for
activity, just like it's a neighborhood fitness, just like the pool that
comes. It's for that neighborhood, just for, like -- those tennis courts,
it's for that neighborhood.
I really -- when I -- I really challenged myself and think, why
am I here? And the role of government is really to protect and
secure the rights of people. And if I lived in those neighborhoods, I
February 27, 2024
Page 122
would want to be protected, and I would want to be secure, and I
would want those conditional uses to be limited to my area. Just like
I live in Pine Ridge Estates. And if there was a conditional use right
in the middle of a community center, a YMCA, so to speak, that
would not be favorable with me, and I want to treat people like they
want to be treated.
Existing property rights -- existing property rights to me are
sacred, and they ought to be protected, and people ought to be
allowed to do what they want to do.
The golf course conversion in that B2 says that a community
center is a conditional use or an allowed use. That clearly indicates
an integral -- the words used were an integral part of a golf course
and the surrounding community and as an accessory use and an
amenity to that neighborhood. Just like the tennis, pool, bocce in the
other community centers, that's for the immediate and surrounding
use.
I don't want to open up Pandora's box and say that anybody
that -- you know, anybody that's looking to convert a golf course,
gated or not gated, just has carte blanche ability to ask for whatever
they want.
We know the chaos that that causes in a community. We get
the e-mails. I get the phone calls. I get the fight. You know, we
listen to them here. And I don't want the fight. I just -- I don't want
to open up that Pandora's box. So I'm leaning on -- I'm leaning on
with Commissioner Kowal that we should not have to worry about
and to redefine neighborhood or surrounding area for the amenities
that that area wants.
So, Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well -- and this is just -- this
is just a thought, and it has to do with when you -- Commissioner
Saunders, you and I first got elected, there was a golf course
February 27, 2024
Page 123
community that came to us and wanted to relocate tennis courts to the
back end of the property and put them on a cul-de-sac street, and they
came to us and had all the greatest ideas in the world, and it was in a
remote area of the subdivision. There was 800 people there, and 780
of the people that -- houses that lived in it signed a petition to
approve it.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Seven hundred and
ninety-five out of the 800.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It's a better -- he's got a better
remembrance of math than I do.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah. I think there were
two families that were opposed to it.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And I voted to continue the
item because we heard more information at the hearing.
And then I went back, and I met with both sides of the
development, and the request for that relocation of those tennis
courts, because it was such a limiting factor, and in the subject, I
learned from the restaurateur, the people -- the community that were
running the restaurant, they were looking to open that restaurant up to
the public. And they had to have those tennis courts -- it wasn't a
gated community. They had to have those tennis courts, and they
were willing to impose that noise and that use on a separate area of
their subdivision to enhance -- I remember the restaurant -- the
manager of the restaurant boasting that he was taking the sales of that
particular restaurant from 600,000 to 1.6 million, and it caused me
then to vote against that. And I remember I took an enormous
amount of heat from the community how I could go against that
many residents within a particular community.
So the caution that I'm sharing with you is every single use
request is different. Every single neighborhood is different. And if
we come away from what's already described and being
February 27, 2024
Page 124
recommended to us by our staff and this official interpretation, I don't
think we're giving due consideration to the entire community in how
we make our decisions going forward. Every single use has a
different impact both locally on the neighborhood, as well as the
overall community.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Mr. Bosi, can you come
forward, please.
What I want to from hear Mr. Bosi, because what I'm hearing
from some of my colleagues that are sort of leaning a different way
than maybe Commissioner McDaniel and I are leaning is, you know,
some of the examples I'm hearing is, wow, if we uphold the county
position, YMCAs could just pop up everywhere, you
know -- anywhere on the map. And I'm oversimplifying. Nobody
said that verbatim, but that's the concern.
And then, you know, we have an issue possibly with Bert Harris.
Commissioner McDaniel -- and you, actually, Mr. Bosi, said it just
right, we can -- anything that's going to the HEX -- any
commissioner -- I did it two years ago, right? Something was going
to go to the HEX, and I was like, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. This
needs a deeper dive.
But when you hear some of the statements that were made, here
are some of the examples about, wow, if we keep the current county
position and definition, we might be opening up a bag of worms that
things can then pop up without our ability to intercede or, you know,
vote on it, look at it closer. Because I agree with Commissioner
McDaniel, every -- every example is different.
Are we still protected from not having a YMCA pop up in all
nine of these neighborhoods arbitrarily if we -- you know, if we go
against what the county definition is currently right now, and if not,
why would we not?
February 27, 2024
Page 125
MR. BOSI: Mike Bosi, Planning and Zoning director.
There is no automatic approvals that would be associated with
any decision that's made today. The decision made today has an
effect upon what the Board of County Commissioners is viewing as
an acceptable project that could move forward underneath the
neighborhood fitness or community center, and as an ask, not as a
matter of right.
So what you're -- if you would side with my interpretation, a
person who owned property within a golf course, within a
golf-course-zoned community, could ask for a neighborhood
fitness/community center. They could submit an application, and
they would have to -- they would have to be approved or disapproved
based upon the merits of that individual application, based upon the
individual merits and the relationship to the surrounding community.
What the applicant is asking, or the appellants is asking for is a
more narrow definition of what that can be, what that use can be,
specifically that it has to be neighborhood-serving, that it can't be
beyond that neighborhood. It has to be serving only that
neighborhood as a conditional use. That would be the only project
that could move forward. And that's not as a matter of right. That
would still require an approval from the Board of County
Commissioners.
So what you would be doing would really be limiting the
amount of projects that could make that ask within a golf course
community of the Board of County Commissioners to evaluate
whether their use was appropriate or not for that individual
community.
As you have recognized, every individual project, every
geographic situation's going to have some unique attributes that's
going to make it somewhat unique. But the decision, if you would
side with the appellant, you put a much tighter window, a much
February 27, 2024
Page 126
tighter box upon what that can be, and it's only something that's
serving the immediate neighborhood. And staff is of the belief that
that's already provided for as an accessory use within the golf course
community.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: You just kind of answered
my question. I was -- if we leave the verbiage as it is, it still give us
protection to make sure that these, you know, facilities or constructed
projects couldn't just arbitrarily pop up on their own.
MR. BOSI: They can only --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Does it make it easier? You
know, by not changing the verbiage the way that is being proposed,
does it make it harder for us to defend something we don't want?
Does it make it easier for a community to be overrun by a YMCA or
a Planet Fitness or something like that? Because what I was hearing
in your presentation is it doesn't. It doesn't change anything. It still
comes to us, and we say no, that's not a cohesive fit for that
community, and we don't want it to go to the HEX. We want it -- I
would expect that the commissioner from that district would want it
to come here and go through the process.
And I guess my final question is, under the current verbiage
that -- you know, that you are up here supporting, are we -- are we
hampering ourselves to be able to control what might pop into these
other communities? And that, you know, the other side's point is, if
you don't change the verbiage, things can more arbitrarily easily pop
up that you might not want.
MR. BOSI: Well, I would never -- I would say nothing's
arbitrary about a decision from the Board of County Commissioners
after a recommendation of the Planning Commission and testimony
from the public and the evidence provided.
What it does do is it really -- it says it limits the type of project
that could ask for that Conditional Use No. 7; that's what it does. It
February 27, 2024
Page 127
really does. It condenses the type of projects, and it can only be
neighborhood serving. If this is the direction of the Board of County
Commissioners, then that conditional use could only be serving the
specific neighborhood that surrounds that individual golf course.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I have a question of him.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Don't go away.
Commissioner Kowal expressed a concern that the decision -- if this
definition were upheld, that this decision would then go to the HEX
and not go through Planning and come to us.
MR. BOSI: That's -- and I tried to clarify. This decision will
have no effect upon the course that STARability would go. So the
STARability has already been requested from Commissioner Kowal
to go to the Planning Commission and the Board of County
Commissioners. That's the course it's going to take. You would
make the ultimate decision on that.
If you decide with the appellant, what would happen is the
application would have to be scrutinized under what is the market
area it's serving, and if it's only serving that neighborhood -- if it's not
serving that neighborhood, then staff is going to -- is going to -- is
going to recommend that it's a denial because it doesn't fit the criteria
that's been established by the Board of County Commissioners for
your Conditional Use No. 7 in the golf course zoning district.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Stay over here. I'm still
looking at you.
So any decision can be rendered to the HEX, and any board
member -- because I recently pulled one from District 3 on a cell
tower because the HEX -- and I let it go through normal process.
There were only a few people that objected, and there were
some -- and we're going to, ultimately, hear it, so I don't want to talk
too awful much about it. But the bottom line is any commissioner
February 27, 2024
Page 128
can even appeal or pull a decision that's already rendered by the HEX
for a reconsideration.
MR. BOSI: You most certainly can, and in that instance you
have. But in this case, Commissioner Kowal has already indicated
to staff that he wanted to see the STARability go through the
Planning Commission and the Board of County Commissioners, and
that's the route, if it -- it will have to take if it wants an approval.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I was going to side with you
if that was the process that was in place, that something like this,
because of -- the words matter and a definition and neighborhood and
the capacity of adjectives to play in the same sentence.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Give me a minute.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'm listening, but I'm going to
stick to where I was.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Mr. Bosi, believe me, I respect
you in the utmost, that you're a wealth of knowledge and you know a
lot more than I do. But once again, that day I was at the NIMs
meeting and I saw those words in that line and the way they're
conformed in the English language, and I made a common sense
decision that day that this does not fit in neighborhood fitness and
community center. But if I had the knowledge that you're telling us
today, that you're saying today what the definition of neighborhood
fitness center and community center, and I had -- that's -- your
definition going into that meeting, I probably would have let it go to
the HEX.
Now, would I have been right or wrong? I don't know. But
that's what we're talking about today.
And I'm going to ask you a question. If we use the definition
that you are defining, when the average person sees that, like I did,
they're not going to ask. But now if they know there's a hearing and
it took place and we support the definition now what you're saying
February 27, 2024
Page 129
what a neighborhood is, does it not give them now an avenue to ask?
And does that not -- now we have to hear it, and one of the
commissioners has to catch it and say, no, I want them to come
before the Planning Commission and the Board?
MR. BOSI: And I'm not sure where the question exactly is on
that, but what I would say is, this decision does not alter nor change
the non-definition of a neighborhood. It's been recognized that the
LDC does not have a definition of neighborhood. This doesn't
change staff perspective of what a neighborhood -- we understand
that a neighborhood commercial serves a neighborhood -- a specific
area within that geographic area of like -- of houses in geographic
proximity to that center.
This isn't changing the definition of a -- of neighborhood. This
is trying -- this is saying that the ask for a neighborhood fitness
community center is something that can serve beyond the reach of an
individual neighborhood based upon community, meaning something
larger than a neighborhood. And so --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aren't we specifically talking
about a particular type of property? And we only have nine left in
this county. This is not like we're talking about a broad spectrum of
all these different properties can ask for some sort of conversion.
We're specifically talking about ones that are tight and narrow
fairways that have homes right up against these greenways and these
communities. And the reason I think -- I think the intent, when it
was changed and the word "neighborhood fitness and community
center" was put in there, was to define that these are different. These
are not like your normal spread-out areas where you can put a fitness
center or a community center. These should be specific to the
neighborhood. And I think -- because we wanted to restrict it even
more, not less.
And like I said, if I went into that meeting with the definition
February 27, 2024
Page 130
you gave the appellant, I may not have asked this to go to the
Planning Commission. It may have just went to the HEX because
I'd say, you know what? Mr. Bosi knows a lot more than I do, and
he defines it that it fits. It's serving another community. It's a
specific community of people even though they don't live there.
And I would say, you know what, per his definition it fits.
Can I honestly -- can I say that? I mean, because it's me, and
it's my opinion.
MR. BOSI: Absolutely, absolutely. And most certainly, I
understand the logic of it.
What I would say, as I pointed out, that the -- the PL number for
this is 2021, so it's been in the system for three years. One of the
reasons why, not just because of the neighborhood opposition, staff
has had a tough time trying to find the compatibility of this proposed
facility at this location.
So staff isn't endorsing by upholding our OI, and the
establishment of the OI was by no means an endorsement that we
think STARability, as it currently exists, is constructed and should be
approved. We were saying that a use that serves the neighborhood is
already provided for in that zoning district, by that golf course zoning
district. It's allowed for. A community center is allowed for as an
accessory use.
It was added as a conditional use, so it serves beyond just the
neighborhood by that action, by that logic. That's why we have
established the position. It has nothing to do with STARability.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: But why -- moving forward in
2017, we added that specific language, "neighborhood." When you
say in the original, back on whatever it was, 20 whenever -- 2020 or
whatever -- I don't know how far it dates back. But you said the
community center and the fitness, the gyms, the pools and the tennis
courts, all that, that's already a conditional use.
February 27, 2024
Page 131
MR. BOSI: No, as a matter of right.
(Simultaneous crosstalk.)
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Those are already by right?
MR. BOSI: Yes.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Why is that word
"neighborhood" put in there if it wasn't consciously put in there to
make it seem that it's for the neighborhood? That's all I'm trying to
say. And I think -- if I had that -- the opinion you're giving, if I had
that that day, I may have looked at it differently, because I would say,
well, you know, according to our Planning and Zoning, neighborhood
could mean more than just a neighborhood. We may not have got
here today. And that's all I'm just answering to Commissioner
McDaniel how this can get and create something more than it is just
altering the definition of neighborhood.
Let's just use common sense, what everybody considers a
neighborhood is a neighborhood. And probably the intent of the
person that authored this meant neighborhood. That's all I'm saying.
But I think you guys know my position on this, so -- it's getting late.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Absolutely, I concur.
And every other use is regarding the immediate area, the
immediate neighborhood. And so I think the intent was clearly this,
and I think we ought to keep it that way.
Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I was just going to ask one
quick question. By allowing an ask, it doesn't mean automatic
approval, right? So if we keep the verbiage as it is and it allows
for -- I don't want to say less tight controls, but it allows for an ask
for a certain piece of property. We have every right to say, no, it's
not cohesive. There's a million different reasons that we could have
that we could shoot down, especially if we brought it here to the
commissioners, you know, correct, or are we opening ourselves up
February 27, 2024
Page 132
that the denial of something becomes more difficult for us using the
current county verbiage?
MR. BOSI: No. You most certainly have every right to say it
doesn't fit. And one of the things I would point out is one of the
conditional uses that were added was a museum. A museum doesn't
serve a neighborhood. By that fact, it shows that the uses -- the
conditional uses that were added in 2017 weren't focused upon
neighborhood functions. It was -- it was focused upon uses that
attract beyond the neighborhood more on the community scale.
So with that, I was just -- any other questions?
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: From what I'm hearing, we're
not that far apart -- well, because we're all saying the same thing.
Everybody wants to protect the neighborhood. Everybody wants to
be able to have a say-so in the ultimate use. Everybody -- I believe
everybody would like to have the property owners have a right to ask.
Yes? And it doesn't mean an exact approval.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah. We're not changing the
verbiage. I mean, by no means, we're not changing the verbiage.
We're just defining what the definition of the verbiage is. So I don't
want anybody to get hung up that we're changing something in the
code. We're not. We're just arguing who's right or wrong about the
true definition of neighborhood. Is it Mr. Bosi, or is it the appellant?
That's what we're deciding today. We're not deciding the verbiage in
the particular code. We're deciding what is the better definition of
neighborhood.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I don't agree with that
statement.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: No?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: My understanding is is the
appellant's question is a limiting factor on the notice process and the
February 27, 2024
Page 133
definition of an actual neighborhood.
Without you coming there. I'm talking to Mr. Bosi.
MR. BOSI: And this has no effect upon notification, this has
no effect upon a definition of a neighborhood. This simply would
say Conditional No. 7 can only serve the neighborhood that
surrounds the golf course. That conditional use could only serve the
neighborhood. That's -- that's what they're asking you; to reverse the
OI to say Conditional Use 7 can only serve the immediate
neighborhood that surrounds that golf course. That's what they're
asking for.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: So it would limit asks that
could -- that could come, right? I mean, that's our whole position
here.
MR. BOSI: Yes. It limits the types of projects that can be --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: See. And, I mean, I don't
want to go -- you know, get out of the lane here and just continue
this. But to me that's -- you know, I'm all about, you know, limiting
government overreach. So I say, come and ask. We're five smart
people. It goes through a whole huge vetting process before it
comes to us. So to me, you know, changing the verbiage and -- than
what's currently in place -- and I think Commissioner McDaniel and
I, this is where we feel -- I don't want to speak for you -- is that it
does sort of artificially limit some things that I think we should have
the -- you know, if somebody owns a piece of property, they want to
come here, but if somebody wants to dump a Planet Fitness in the
middle of a neighborhood, I think they're going to have a -- it's going
to be a stretch. And under the current verbiage, we would have
every right to hear it; shoot it down, approve it. I don't see that
there'd be any change.
So, to me, going with the appeal process here, I just think
that -- in my head I just think that that's a bit of government
February 27, 2024
Page 134
overreach. I think people should have the right to come here and
ask, and we should have the right to say, oh, this is bigger than a
breadbox, it shouldn't go to the HEX, just like Commissioner Kowal
did, just like I did a couple years ago, and we made it go through the
whole process. Sometimes it's approved. Sometimes it isn't.
I mean, unless I'm hearing something different, I just feel like
going -- changing -- you know, going against your position limits in a
way that I'm not comfortable with because in my mind it just feels
like it's a little bit of government intrusion, government overreach,
and it limits our ability to hear things, get all the pieces, and then say
yes or no.
So I don't know if I'm summarizing that correctly or if I -- you
know, I don't know if that's your position as well is what you're sort
of --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'm still where I was at the
beginning.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Yeah, me too.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All right. Anybody else? Any other
comments? Nobody's lit up. So we have a motion to accept the OI
as it -- as it is and -- all in favor of accepting and keeping the OI as it
is, say aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All opposed?
Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: So we're going to change that. Now,
my question is, when we change it, do we change it to say
"neighborhood fitness and neighborhood community center"?
I think it's -- I think it's extremely vague, and I would like to see
February 27, 2024
Page 135
that the vagueness return [sic] out of that. I think -- we're talking
about golf courses. I'm not going to go into my vote again, but
going forward, how are we going to -- how are we going to change
that so that it's not nebulous?
MR. BOSI: Well, the term won't be -- the term won't be
changed. The market area of which that project is to serve will be
restricted to only adjacent residents to the golf course so --
CHAIRMAN HALL: Okay. Will it be clear?
MR. BOSI: That will be -- that will be the clear description of
that project.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: The neighborhood of a golf
community isn't just the houses on the golf course. There are houses
in a community -- in a golf course community that aren't on the golf
course. So when you make that statement, I think we've got to be
very careful. It's not limited -- the use would not be limited just to
property owners within a neighborhood that are on a golf course.
We all know a variety of neighborhoods that have -- the golf
course communities where there may be houses that are not on the
golf course. Riviera Golf Estates, I think, is a good example. There
are a lot of houses that are in the Riviera Golf Estates community that
are not on the golf course.
So I take exception to what you're saying, that it's only
limited -- now it's only limited to people living on a golf course. It's
limited to people in that neighborhood. That neighbor is Riviera
Golf Estates; that neighborhood is Lakewood, not just people on the
golf course.
MR. BOSI: So with that, staff will apply that to
the -- Conditional Use No. 7 golf course, it has to be within the golf
course community, not just adjacent to the golf course, but within the
golf course community.
CHAIRMAN HALL: That's what we're talking about, yes.
February 27, 2024
Page 136
All right. With that, we'll break for lunch, and let's come back
at 2:40.
(A luncheon recess was had from 1:35 p.m. to 2:40 p.m.)
MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you, Ms. Patterson.
I guess we need to do a cleanup motion.
MR. PIRES: If I may approach, Mr. Chair?
CHAIRMAN HALL: Sure.
MR. PIRES: What we would request -- appreciate the Board
had voted to not accept the official interpretation, but the code says
the Board would, you know, approve, reject, or approve with
modifications. So we would request that the Board reject the official
interpretation finding no substantial competent evidence and also, if
the Board wishes to, following up on the discussion by the Board,
that neighborhood means a limited geographic area or neighborhood,
and we would request that to clean up the record.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Mr. Bosi?
MR. BOSI: And that is always an option of the Board of
County Commissioners to modify -- either agree or disagree or
modify the interpretation. If that's the direction of the Board, staff
will follow whatever that direction is.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Mr. Klatzkow, do you have a comment
on it?
MR. KLATZKOW: I think -- I know what the Board did, and
it was implicit in your motion, but if Mr. Pires is uncomfortable with
it and wants to clarify your motion, I'm indifferent.
MR. PIRES: And our request would be an explicit motion to
reject the official interpretation as not being supported by competent
substantial evidence. That's one of the choices the code has.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I'll make the motion, to get it
moving. Mike, I'm sorry.
February 27, 2024
Page 137
MR. BOSI: There was three specific things that the appeal
asked for. He asked for it to be limited geographic area, that it was
only a specific distance from it in his request for an appeal. You
sided with the appellant.
My understanding is the three conditions that he put forward that
he wanted to define what Conditional Use No. 7 is is what the Board
was directing staff to incorporate within our interpretation.
CHAIRMAN HALL: No. We weren't -- I don't think that we
were considering the thousand feet, 500 feet, or anything like that.
We just wanted to say that it was for that community, for that specific
community with no specific parameters. Lakewood's Lakewood.
Imperial's Imperial. You know, it's just a common sense thing.
And we just wanted to clear the language up with the community
center saying neighborhood community center.
MR. PIRES: And if I may, Mr. Chair and Board. I apologize,
but the code says, upon appearing -- upon hearing the appeal, the
Board can reject the official interpretation finding there's no
substantial competent evidence for the official interpretation. That's
what -- we're asking the Board to make that determination. I guess,
as Jeff said, it's implicit, but it's not explicit, and we request it be
explicit.
CHAIRMAN HALL: So the motion, Commissioner Kowal.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. I'll make a motion, then,
and we'll see -- a motion to reject the original interpretation as not
being based on competent substantial evidence and find that the word
"neighborhood" means, basically, neighborhood, like Imperial or
Riviera Golf Estates. That's my motion.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We have a lawyer in the
audience who has his hand up. I think that means he wants to say
something. Is that --
MR. YOVANOVICH: I don't know if I'm allowed to.
February 27, 2024
Page 138
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I know. I was just kind of
stalling things until --
CHAIRMAN HALL: You want to say something, Rich?
MR. YOVANOVICH: I would, as a party to this thing, if I can.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Sure. We're just hammering out details.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Well, it's a big detail, because I -- even
Mr. Pires acknowledged that there were multiple neighborhoods
within Lakewood community. So is it just the -- he said that in his
argument that I think there were seven or eight -- am I right,
Tony? -- neighborhoods?
CHAIRMAN HALL: Nine.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Nine neighborhoods within. So do you
mean just one neighborhood when -- the closest neighborhood, or do
you mean the community? Because I think you guys were talking
about community being the Lakewood community.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Well, Lakewood is Lakewood.
MR. YOVANOVICH: But he calls -- he says it's the
Lakewood community; am I right, Tony? I'm not trying to -- I just
want to make sure that we're not -- you're being so specific when you
said neighborhood means neighborhood because his definition of
neighborhood was really, really --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I'm just trying to play catch-up.
I thought we already took care of this.
MR. YOVANOVICH: I thought you did, too.
MR. PIRES: If I may, Mr. Chair, Board. I'm just trying to get
an explicit ruling rejecting the official interpretation.
MR. YOVANOVICH: That's fine.
MR. PIRES: And then if the Board wants to give further
direction later on, but the explicit -- the code says that the Board has
the ability to reject the official interpretation finding no substantial
competent evidence, and we would like that action by the Board.
February 27, 2024
Page 139
MR. YOVANOVICH: I think that's all you are limited to do.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I'll amend my motion then, if I
can do so.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Sure.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: All right. Make a motion to
reject the original interpretation as not being based on competent
substantial evidence.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Second.
All in favor?
Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All opposed?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Same motion carries, just different
words.
MR. PIRES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Coordinated adjectives.
Item #9D
ORDINANCE AMENDING THE COLLIER COUNTY LAND
DEVELOPMENT CODE TO ESTABLISH PROVISIONS FOR
FOOD TRUCK PARKS AND MOBILE FOOD DISPENSING
VEHICLES. [PL20220006373] (FIRST OF TWO HEARINGS)
(ALL DISTRICTS) - DIRECTION FOR STAFF TO BRING BACK
A REPORT AT A FUTURE BCC MEETING
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, that brings us to Item
17C, now Item 9D. This is a recommendation to adopt an ordinance
February 27, 2024
Page 140
amending the Collier County Land Development Code to establish
provisions for food truck parks and mobile food dispensing vehicles.
This is being moved to the regular agenda by each commissioner's
separate request, and Mr. Bosi is here to present.
MR. BOSI: Good afternoon. Mike Bosi, Planning and Zoning
director.
Before you today we have the proposed LDC amendments
related to how the county will handle food truck and food truck parks
moving forward.
We had a recommendation, some modifications that were
provided by the DSAC, a recommendation of approval and site
modifications related to fire lanes that came from the Planning
Commission.
We had no public opposition to the proposal, and we placed it
on your summary agenda.
A couple days ago, Mr. Yovanovich and Mr. Wayne Arnold
submitted some material asking for some changes to the -- to the
proposed ordinance and want to provide the Board the opportunity to
weigh in on those proposed changes to get some direction.
The way that we've had it proposed, right now in the C-2 -- C-3,
C-4, and C-5 zoning district, if the Board -- if the food truck did not
contain alcohol sales and amplified sound permit, it would be a
permitted use. If it contained alcohol and/or the amplified sound, it
would be a conditional use. It's been suggested by Mr. Yovanovich
that that -- in the C-3, C-4, and C-5, that all of them should be
proposed as conditional uses to provide for an extra layer of
protection an extra analysis of compatibility to make sure that
nothing will crop up from the development of these food trucks.
We also have a provision that within the C-1, C-2, or C-3
categories -- or, I'm sorry, C-3, C-4, or C-5 categories, that two or
less trucks could go in as a matter of right, not as a food truck, but
February 27, 2024
Page 141
just as stand-alone trucks as well. Not sure if the Board of County
Commissioners had any issue with that, but I don't think that has been
addressed by Mr. Yovanovich's letter. I wanted to see what the
appetite of the Board of County Commissioners was regarding those
individual changes.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Say that again. So two trucks could go
in by right?
MR. BOSI: Two trucks or less could go in by right within the
C-3, C-4, or C-5 zoning district as an accessory use to the primary
use on the property.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Thank you, Chair.
I actually sent a note immediately to Ms. Patterson to pull this,
and I'm glad to see the other commissioners thought so. I hadn't
seen Mr. Yovanovich's letter yet, but then when I saw it, there
was -- most of what was in the letter I agreed with, and it made me
think back to the last time we talked about food trucks and what we
all sort of collectively said, which was, we want to have closer
oversight that a food truck park, whether it's two trucks or five trucks
or eight trucks, they're all a bit different.
I remember us talking about we don't really have our hands
around, you know, what a food truck park could turn into, and we
referenced Celebration Park. I always say the people that love
Celebration Park are usually the people that don't live near it.
And so I didn't want -- I didn't want to see anything on the
summary agenda that made looser approval of food truck parks.
And I don't think 10 of them are going to come to us every meeting.
And maybe in a year, we could write something that maybe -- once
we get a little bit more knowledge and we feel more comfortable that
we haven't just let these things plop around.
And when I met with the staff hearing that there are single food
February 27, 2024
Page 142
trucks all over one particular district which, you know, I won't name
here, but that commissioner probably knows that have popped up
with minimal to no approvals, but, you know, they're kind of in an
okay spot and it's not a big deal, and that's not the way the county
should work.
So to me, if it's -- you know, if we want to have something that
allows one truck, there should be some verbiage. To me, two trucks
or more is a park, or could be. And then when we spoke, you know,
privately in my office, you know, Mr. Bosi and, you know,
Mr. French and Ms. Scott were there. You know, my concern is
these things -- you know, two food trucks park in a parking lot seems
like no big deal, but then somebody has a birthday party there, you
know, on a Friday night, and so then they hire a band, and then we
get a million e-mails that the noise is too much even though, you
know, it's written in there, no music, no nothing.
And so my thought was these things are still pretty fresh. I
don't think we -- you know, we -- it costs us too much to have these
things be vetted a little bit until we really get a better feel for it. And
then I also think the ones that were brought to my attention that are
just sort of parking outside of restaurants and sitting there until
somebody says something, we need to take a look at those because
when we send a signal to the restaurateurs that, hey, Bob parked his
food truck there, it's been there for six months, and nobody said
anything; that's how these things pop up, and then they start to grow.
You know, you talk to citizens around Celebration Park; they never
thought it would turn into what some people tell me, and I agree, is
sort of like an outdoor Seed to Table.
And I'm not saying they're breaking any laws or anything, but,
boy, we sure do get a lot of pushback. And then we even hear from
our own staff when we had this conversation before about food trucks
that, wow, it sort of got -- it got bigger than what we kind of thought
February 27, 2024
Page 143
it would be.
So I pulled it just because I wanted to have a discussion and
maybe that -- and, you know, I said this to you, Mr. Bosi, I'm
not -- my position isn't to be directive to you and say, here's what it
should say, but I'd like -- I'd feel a lot better if the staff took a look at
it a little bit deeper and came back with more detailed verbiage that
would give us better oversight for any of these requests that we're
sort of bigger than a breadbox, and I think it's most of them. And it's
not a big number.
So I remember one time, a commissioner that used to sit here,
Commissioner Solis, one time he said at a meeting -- I don't even
know if I was elected -- and he says, I don't want to be approving a
food truck park, you know, in every single meeting, you know. We
should leave that to the staff. We're not going to get that many.
But I think -- I'll just speak for my district, District 1, I'd like to
have tighter oversight so I know where they're going. I want to
make sure the constituents are pleased with it, and that they're not
just -- I'm not going to just drive by one day and go, wow, where did
that come from, and then find out from the staff, oh, remember when
you thinned out the rules? Well, they're not in violation of anything.
It's okay. So that's why I pulled it.
Seeing other names of commissioners there, I'd love to hear
from the other commissioners. Maybe they pulled it for a different
reason. But I pulled it because I really wanted something more
detailed to come back from the staff that would give us more
oversight and visibility and tighter control and approval. I'm not
saying, you know, we shoot down every food truck park, but that was
my reasoning, so...
CHAIRMAN HALL: So before I go to Commissioner
McDaniel, and then Commissioner Kowal's on deck, in staff
meetings yesterday, you explained it very well about, you know, the
February 27, 2024
Page 144
taco truck and when it just shows up and then when a permit's
required and then versus the continued use or by right.
MR. BOSI: And we have a provision towards where if it's a
food truck park just parking at an establishment for four hours or less,
there's no permit that would be required. If there's -- the second
stage above that is the accessory food truck -- food truck that's at an
establishment that permits food truck parks. Those can be permitted
through a Site Development Plan improvement or Site Development
Plan insubstantial change for one or two food trucks, and it sounds
like there is some concern --
CHAIRMAN HALL: How long? How long would that permit
last?
MR. BOSI: Permanently.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Permanently.
MR. BOSI: Permanently. And then the third tier is your food
truck park, and those are the ones that we're proposing in C-3, C-4,
and C-5. Like I said, we had a differential. If you had amplified
music and alcohol sales, that's a conditional use. If you had just -- if
those weren't present, they could be permitted.
It sounds like, at least from -- one commissioner would agree
with Mr. Yovanovich, would like to see all of those food truck parks
be placed as a conditional use for the Board of County
Commissioners to evaluate whether it's an appropriate use or not?
CHAIRMAN HALL: Yes.
Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: One other one would, too.
I -- and I also -- I want to be very careful and distinguish between
permittable uses and illegal uses. The abuse that happens with food
trucks at large is rampant. We've got a commercial -- we've got a lot
of -- and, you know, we just had a discussion about neighbors and
where the comma is, and what the proper -- what the proper adjective
February 27, 2024
Page 145
was, but neighborhood commercial is different than C-3, C-4, C-5,
but that doesn't mean that a C-4 -- C-3, C-4, C-5 isn't in a
neighborhood.
And we have people -- I have people taking advantage of that.
They park a food truck in their parking lot, theoretically by right, and
then start consuming parking spaces that are available for a restaurant
and then push the parking for other commercial properties that are in
close proximity away and start taking up -- taking advantage of other
people's property rights for the utilization of their own property by
consuming land that's over here because they haven't necessarily
done what they needed to do with a proper SDP.
And I think we're not going to get overwhelmed with these
things, and if we do, we can make a change at some particular stage.
But I would -- individually, this is very -- to me this is, they have the
right to ask, but we need to see what those impacts are on the nearby
surrounding area to be able to make a determination and put
limitations on noise and alcohol and parking and so on and so forth.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Kowal.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you, Chair.
I definitely know the difference between the roach coach and a
mobile one. They show up at the worksites at lunchtime and, you
know, you get a hot meal, if you can. And I don't have a problem
with that. You know, they're mobile.
And then it comes down again mobile versus nonmobile. I
mean, we have mobile homes that have been on blocks for 40 years.
They're still called a mobile home.
And sometimes these food trucks find a home in a parking lot
somewhere, and they're not truly mobile. You know, they're there
permanently. And I know the -- I just want to get more insight;
maybe you can help me.
Is the -- let's say Commissioner Saunders' district, for instance,
February 27, 2024
Page 146
I'm familiar with, you know, the tiki hut that serves the beer and the
wine in the parking lot, you know, in the evening hours. That being
a parking lot, being a C-3, I think it is, or whatever that particular
plaza is, they would be able to have a food truck come, set up there
the way it's written now. But who would watch to make sure they
don't get a temporary amplified sound permit for one night or
something like that?
Because then it would kind of circumvent the process of saying,
well, these are just allowed because they're not going to have
amplified sound and not alcohol, but they are catering to a business
that serves alcohol and that because they don't provide food. So
what safeguard do we have that this is [sic] going to -- a reoccurring
thing in a property that's very close to residential property, like in
Commissioner Saunders' district?
MR. JOHNSON: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Eric Johnson, for the record, planning manager.
So I think what you're asking about are mobile food dispensing
vehicles that are accessory to an already established principal use.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yes.
MR. JOHNSON: And if -- so one or two wanted to come in,
they wouldn't -- there are some standards that are proposed right now,
and if they wanted to sell alcohol or have --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: That's not what I said.
MR. JOHNSON: Oh, sorry.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: They don't sell alcohol, they
don't have amplified sound, but the business that doesn't provide food
does serve alcohol. Like I use that example is that tiki hut which
doesn't have a restaurant connected to it. It just has a beer and wine
license in a parking lot, but then they want food service through a
food truck, and then they get an amplified sound permit for the one
evening every Friday, temporary, how do we control that?
February 27, 2024
Page 147
MR. JOHNSON: Well, the principal use would be allowed to
continue to sell their alcohol as they normally would. The accessory
use, mobile dispensing vehicle, would be allowed there by right as
long as they're not having any amplified sound associated with
outdoor entertainment or selling alcohol from that particular unit;
however, I think --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So we would have a provision in
there to say, well, are you a food truck, and you're asking for a
temporary sound permit, and we'd deny them?
MR. JOHNSON: If they're a food truck and they want to have
amplified sound associated with outdoor entertainment --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Temporary. Because people
can do that, even for your home.
MR. JOHNSON: We would consider --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: If you throw a party, you have to
get a permit for a temporary amplified sound permit.
MR. JOHNSON: We would consider temporary to be
something that would require a comparable-use determination. That
would go to the Hearing Examiner.
We also have a temporary-use permit that allows these mobile
food dispensing vehicles to be at a particular site for no more than 28
days within a calendar year. There's also exceptions where the
Board of County Commissioners would be able to have -- under
certain circumstances to be able to increase the number of days
beyond that 28 days. I don't know if I answered your question.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I think it was just more on the
grounds of are we going to be able to have the ability to supervise
this in a way that they're not getting this temporary sound permit
even though they're a food truck, and they're telling you they don't
serve alcohol and they don't have sound, but they're obtaining it for
that particular evening, you know, because it's a Friday night, and
February 27, 2024
Page 148
they're entertaining. So that's what I'm -- I guess that's where I'm
going at with it.
MR. JOHNSON: The language right now just has it where, if
they want to have it for one day or more, that would require a
comparable-use determination, but we could --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. That kind of answered
my question.
MR. JOHNSON: Which would go to the Hearing Examiner.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay.
MR. JOHNSON: Now, we could structure it so that if they
want to apply for a temporary-use permit for a day or two days or
under -- you know, within the constraints of that, that could also be a
means to accomplish that. It depends on what you want. The way
we have it structured --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: What I'm trying to do is -- you're
saying it's by right because they don't have music and they don't serve
alcohol.
MR. JOHNSON: Yes.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: But if they circumvent the
system by running down and getting a temporary permit for a Friday
or Saturday night, now they basically pulled one over you on, and
they are having amplified music, and they're by right there. That's
all I'm trying to say. Is there any way or mechanism we're going to
have in place that this won't happen?
MR. JOHNSON: We would want to -- if they were going to
have it just one day or more, that would be a comparable-use
determination.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay.
MR. JOHNSON: That's even above and beyond the
temporary-use permit. That's a public hearing.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay.
February 27, 2024
Page 149
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Henceforth, conditional use,
whether it's one or 10 or two.
I mean, the second -- the second circumstance that's becoming
very prevalent as well is containers, shipping containers. They're
wrapping them and then dumping them -- dropping them off and
calling them food trucks.
We had -- I think over in Immokalee, I have -- now, those aren't
legally permitted, but that's what they're doing is they're calling them
food trucks and dumping them -- putting them on commercially
zoned vacant lots.
Now, they don't have permits. They're not legal. And that's
the difference -- distinguishment between the two.
But the concern I have is I just don't -- I just don't want to do a
by-right conversion of commercial to an entirely separate use
without -- without having -- without having the capacity to say no.
If we do that by right, it happens.
MR. JOHNSON: Understood. And we could structure it so
that any instance of these things would require a conditional-use
approval.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: That's a simple answer for
me.
MR. BOSI: And what I would say is we do have a provision
for a temporary-use permit where we issued the -- at a variety of
special events, temporary use for food trucks, but those were only
limited to 28 days, and they have to be -- you know, there's a tight
window towards where they could -- you know, could operate.
So what I'm hearing from the Board of County Commissioners,
bring you something back that any proposed food truck would require
a conditional use. And I'm also -- what I'm hearing, do you want
that to go to the HEX with the discretion of the Board of County
February 27, 2024
Page 150
Commissioners, or do you want that just to come to the Board of
County Commissioners?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: In my personal opinion, it
can go to the HEX. We have the right, if one gets approved by the
HEX that there is issues with, we could always pull it and appeal that
decision. I mean, it certainly would streamline the process to allow
it to go to the HEX. We've already determined that we all have the
right to appeal that decision and/or that process even in midstream.
I'm okay with it going to the HEX.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Thank you, Chairman.
I'm okay with it going to the HEX as well because, I mean, as
involved commissioners, you have to monitor what's going to the
HEX, if it's something like a food truck. And, I mean, I had one in
my district that got approved by the HEX, and then I was like, no, not
so fast, and then I brought it back here. So I'm good with that.
What I would just like to see -- and I don't know if this is a
motion, direction, or I've even got support from my fellow
commissioners here. I would like to see what you just said,
Mr. Bosi, is take what we've said up here, and I'd like to just see
better verbiage.
The reason I pulled this, I just didn't like the verbiage. It
seemed very thin and loose, and last we talked about food trucks, we
wanted to -- not tighter control, but better oversight. And what I
read that was in the agenda, it seemed -- and then I saw
Mr. Yovanovich's letter, and I thought, yeah, that's kind of what I was
just thinking. He just said it better.
And so I would just like to see something come back to us and
then see if we all agree. But, you know, I think most people up here,
you know, want to have better oversight of the food trucks, and we're
already hearing that some people are already circumventing the
February 27, 2024
Page 151
system. Bring us some verbiage that allows that to not happen as
much so that we can do something about it.
And like I said in my office is, you said maybe -- it was
Mr. Bosi -- you were, like, there's more than a few people
circumventing it. Well, then let's get some verbiage in there so that,
you know, then our code enforcement folks can do something about it
and maybe are supported a little bit more possibly.
MR. BOSI: Well -- and I understand, and we'll bring that back.
What I will say is any of those food trucks that haven't been
permitted on a temporary basis or if they've been there permanent and
they haven't gone through the process, those are illegal. Those aren't
endorsed by this code.
So, you know, if a code enforcement officer is alerted towards it,
you know, we can most certainly take action.
But we will come back with a process that requires -- a
conditional-use process for all food truck -- food trucks, whether food
truck or food truck parks. We also allow for the temporary-use
permit for that 28 days. But we'll bring it back based upon the
contours of what you guys would like and see if we met the mark
with that.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: That's what I was looking
for.
CHAIRMAN HALL: That's fine with me. Do we need a
motion or --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Do we need a motion for
that, or we just give direction?
MR. KLATZKOW: Direction's fine.
CHAIRMAN HALL: That's perfect.
MR. BOSI: Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chair, I do have two registered speakers.
Richard Yovanovich and Wayne Arnold.
February 27, 2024
Page 152
MR. YOVANOVICH: If it's okay, I'll waive.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All right.
MR. ARNOLD: Same here; I'll waive.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you, gentlemen.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Was there a rumble out in the
parking lot? Mr. Bosi's got his jacket off. Did something happen
during lunch, you know? Did something happen?
CHAIRMAN HALL: Mr. Yovanovich may want to hear again
where you said that he said it better.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Well, I didn't really mean
that. He said it different. As Commissioner McDaniel always says,
I'm going to say it different.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Same thing but different.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Same thing but different.
CHAIRMAN HALL: What's next, Ms. Patterson?
Item #10B
THE MCDOWELL HOUSING PARTNERS - EKOS ON COLLIER
PROJECT APPROVAL OF WORKFORCE HOUSING LAND
ACQUISITION SURTAX FUNDING, MADE DURING
DISCUSSION OF ITEM #11B AT THE JANUARY 23, 2024, BCC
MEETING. (ALL DISTRICTS) - MOTION TO MOVE THE
PROJECT FORWARD WITH FUNDING BY COMMISSIONER
SAUNDERS; SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER LOCASTRO –
APPROVED
MS. PATTERSON: That brings us to Item 10B. This is a
recommendation to hear the reconsideration of the McDowell
Housing Partners Ekos on Collier project approval of workforce
housing land acquisition surtax funding made during discussion of
February 27, 2024
Page 153
Item 11B at the January 23rd, 2024, BCC meeting.
And Mr. Cormac Giblin, your director of Housing and
Economic Development, is here to present.
MR. GIBLIN: Good afternoon, Commissioners. Again, for
the record, Cormac Giblin.
I'm just going to give a brief background of how we got here and
then turn it over to the McDowell team to give a little bit more
in-depth presentation.
On January 23rd, we brought to you an item to recommend
using $3.75 million of your workforce house land acquisition surtax
funding to purchase a site off of Collier Boulevard about a half mile
south of U.S. 41. That is about seven and a half acres.
McDowell's proposal was to -- or is to build 160 affordable
apartment units with a mix of one-, two-, and three-bedrooms and a
mix of income targets between 30 and 80 percent of area median
income.
At your last meeting, on the February 13th meeting, you
entertained a motion to reconsider, which was approved, and that's
why we're back here today with an ear towards answering some
certain questions that were outstanding in terms of zoning and buffers
and water management and some other development-specific criteria.
The process from here would be that McDowell, should they
move forward, would continue with their Site Development Plan
process. Once that plan is approved and also all the ancillary
adjoining permits from the Water Management District, DEP, or
FDOT, any other agencies that need to weigh in on the project have
approved it, they would then -- we would come back to you with a
purchase agreement, a developer agreement, and a long-term land
lease for the county to officially acquire the property and enter in a
partnership with McDowell.
Just for a little bit more background, the property is zoned C-3.
February 27, 2024
Page 154
Their plan is to use the new Live Local Act to allow housing that is
affordable to be built on it. It's adjacent to a C-4 property, which has
a maximum height allowable of 75 feet, and the maximum density
allowed would be 92 units to the acre using the Live Local process.
McDowell has -- their plans call for a building of only 70 feet and
only 21 units to the acre.
With that, unless you have any more questions for staff, I'll turn
it over to McDowell to go through how they've addressed some of the
outstanding questions in their design.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you, Cormac.
MR. SHEAR: Good afternoon, Commissioners. Thank you so
much for getting us back here as quickly as you did.
We've done a lot of work over the last two weeks. We've made
a lot of progress and have some interesting things to show you.
I've talked to Commissioner McDaniel on some of his concerns
in more detail. We've chatted with some of the community just here
today and understand some of the concerns, and I think you'll be very
pleased to see how we've amended a few things and really tried to
highlight what we're going to do from an engineering perspective to
mitigate the environmental concerns.
Today I do have here with me Davidson Engineering. I have
Ryan White who's been our lead engineer on the project, and so he
will do much better at discussing the technical details and
construction and engineering methodologies we're using when it
relates to stormwater management.
Let's see if I can work this.
So just to be clear on the representative image here, this is a
representative image. This is not by any means the design or the
final design of what we're proposing. At this point we're focused on
the site development, not the vertical development. The vertical
development will follow once we have our footprint and know what
February 27, 2024
Page 155
we're ultimately doing with the site.
One of the big questions was development programming. And
I just wanted to put a few things on the record to be clear on the unit
mix. We do have a mix of 30 percent AMI units, 50 percent AMI
units, and 80 percent AMI units. These will be locked in due to the
tax credit financing which requires a 15-year compliance period. So
we are locked into those set-asides at the point of closing our tax
credit financing for a period of 15 years. The ground lease,
however, will run for a period of 99 years, and there is an opportunity
to revisit after that point. But I just want to be clear and on the
record here that we don't have the ability to adjust these. And we do
have a 50-year extended period where the rents will always be
subject to a maximum of 80 percent.
So there is no opportunity for us, unless we wanted to have a
major recapture of our investment and a guarantee obligation called,
that we would ever be able to take this to, you know, unrestricted
market-rate rents or to condominiumize the project.
We do have the rent and incomes listed here. I know it's a little
small. Happy to provide those in a more legible format, but just
wanted to provide that to give you some idea of what those income
and rent limits are and who we'll be serving, similar to our property
that we just recently developed in partnership, very similar to this
proposal, Ekos on Santa Barbara. You know, those 80 percent rents
do reach a number of county administrative staff as well.
So it kind of goes from there down to 30 percent, which is the
lower end of the income bracket, which is really a lot of seniors
living on fixed incomes, veterans living on, you know, those fixed
incomes that they have. So runs between that and essential service
personnel.
So the site plan, this is where we -- you're going to see a lot
of -- a lot of changes. If you look closely at the top of the page
February 27, 2024
Page 156
where it says preserve area, that preserve was not there previously.
So we've heard some of the feedback, and these are the things that we
want to address. We want to address the environmental concerns
over the impacts of stormwater specifically in relation to Henderson
Creek. We want to address the traffic flows and patterns. We want
to address the parking and I guess, correspondingly, the height as it
relates to the parking.
And as you can see here, the site plan looks similar, but there's
quite a few things that have changed in the thought through those
specific concerns.
The preserve area, as you can see, has shifted from being
adjacent to Henderson Creek now to -- I guess that would be the east
side of the site, and there's a development, a condominium
development, it's a two-story condominium, I believe, on the other
side of the property line of the preserve.
And so the idea in relocating the preserve was to provide a
natural vegetative buffer between the existing residents of that
condominium development and our building, provide something that
will be there. That site will not be developed. It will have a
conservation easement over it, and so that provides a significant
buffer between the two projects. And if you're sitting in your
backyard in the condominium and look up, you're going to see the
tree line. Undoubtedly, you will see some building, but it's not
going to be looming over you.
In addition, we moved the clubhouse towards the Henderson
Creek. There will be -- as you can see, there is no public access.
That is something that we were kicking around in concept. Certainly
not something that we have committed to in any way, shape, or form,
and are, you know, happy to say here today that we will not have any
public access down to Henderson Creek. In fact, we won't even
have a dock. What we will have is just our amenity area backing up
February 27, 2024
Page 157
to the creek and being able to put some seating along the bank just for
our residents' enjoyment, but that will be the extent of it.
The other two things that I think are important in this site plan,
are the two points of ingress and egress. So as you can see, we have
an access point on Henderson Creek. We have an access point on
951, Collier Boulevard. The access to the site can come in either
one of those.
There's a full median cut on the 951 ingress/egress on Collier
Boulevard, and then if residents were to pull into the site onto
Henderson Creek, there is -- on 951 there is a deceleration lane that
buffers them from the traffic going towards Marco that they would
pull into, and it stacks a number of cars.
So that's where folks who are currently living in the community,
in the trailer park community there and the homes that are there in the
condominiums, they pull into that deceleration lane, turn left onto
Henderson Creek to enter into -- onto the street. That would stay the
same; however, what we would propose to do is to put a sign up that
there is no exit from there. So, therefore, in the mornings, at high
levels of traffic, you're not going to see a lot of cars from our
community going onto Henderson Creek, to turn left onto Henderson
to turn right onto Collier.
Naturally, because we have the curb cut on Collier, they're going
to come right out onto Collier Boulevard and go towards 41, you
know, maybe some traffic towards Marco, but in the morning,
generally going towards 41 as well.
So I hope that provided some detail. Again, Davidson
Engineering's here who will talk a little bit more about how we
finalize that with FDOT and, you know, the process and procedure
that we still have to go through.
Cormac hit on this pretty well. You know, we have two
parcels. We have a C-3 parcel and a mobile home park parcel. The
February 27, 2024
Page 158
mobile home park parcel, we are not providing any improvements.
That is going back to the site plan. That is effectively the preserve
area. So it worked out -- you know, worked out pretty well that we
ended up having around the same amount of preserve requirements as
we did the area of the site of the mobile home park.
We do have a meeting with FDOT this week, later this week,
and then another pre-application meeting with them mid March to
talk about their plans for improvements to 951. Based on what
they've given us so far, they have no plans to construct it. They're
looking at site acquisitions right now and funding in their five-year
plan to improve 951 on our side of the street, and what they're
planning to do is to extend a sidewalk that currently ends where our
point of ingress and egress here -- to extend that down to Henderson
Creek.
So they're not widening the road. That's what we've been told.
They're adding a sidewalk that if you look at the aerial you can see
stops halfway in between, or in the middle of our site.
I don't think we have an aerial in here -- yeah, here we go. So
it's hard to see, but you can see there's a sidewalk running along
Collier Boulevard up to the point of the access, and then it does not
extend. So that's what FDOT is planning to do is to extend that all
the way across Henderson Creek.
This is to show, going back to the traffic patterns, the primary
ingress -- or primary egress from our site naturally for folks getting
onto Collier is going to be directly onto Collier Boulevard. And then
you can also see the left-turn lane leading onto Henderson is directed
towards incoming traffic, traffic entering, who could also enter in
onto Collier Boulevard. But as you can see, there's not a
deceleration lane.
So in that sense, I think folks are going to be more inclined,
practically speaking, to take advantage of the designated lane to left
February 27, 2024
Page 159
turn into Henderson. That's how we see it. We're meeting
with -- or, sorry, meeting with traffic very shortly to kind of put more
analysis behind that where they have actual data that will come up
with our final plan.
Parking. Regarding parking, we have been working the site
plan. We got a new site plan this morning. The last site plan that
we presented, we were about 60 spaces below the parking code
requirements. We've increased that. We're now at 262 spaces,
which is 1.63 spaces per unit. That's about 17 percent below code
requirements as it relates to the unit requirement plus the guest
requirement, plus the amenity space requirement. The amenity
space programming is still in flux, so that number's going to change;
however, this morning we did receive a new site plan with 276
parking spaces. That's been pretty well vetted. That still may
change slightly as we get into comments and feedback from county
staff, but that's about a 13 percent reduction.
There's multiple ways parking reductions have been pursued in
the county and multiple ways that they're done, you know,
with -- with the new law, which is the Live Local Act.
So there's a new House Bill 328, which is the follow-up to the
Live Local Act. It's, as they call it, the enhancement bill. We call it
a glitch bill. One of the things that they changed was they added in a
very explicit provision that says that they encourage local
governments to pursue parking reductions for affordable housing. It
doesn't give a mandate. It does mandate a 20 percent reduction,
preemptive parking reduction, administratively approved, similar to
the administrative site plan approval for developments that are within
one-half mile of transportation hubs. This development is within
one-half mile of a major bus stop at the Walmart.
And so we would -- we have not pursued that with staff. That
is something we would pursue in talking to them whether or not we
February 27, 2024
Page 160
actually meet the 20 percent preemptive parking reduction, but I did
want to put that out there, as this is new -- this is a new preemptive
provision under state statute.
As you all know, you also have the administrative parking
reduction option, and I want to share a few details on the parking
reductions that the county has seen over the last few years.
So since 2022 to 2024, there's been 87 administrative parking
reductions applied for. The vast majority, 77, of those were
approved. Seven are still under review, and two have been
withdrawn. Only one was denied.
Here's a list of some communities that have recently gotten
those reductions, and you can see there's some -- you know,
17 -- 16.9 percent, almost 17 percent reductions. And those
communities, I think it's important to note, were majority market-rate
units. They were not even affordable units. They may have had
some affordable housing mixed into it, but they were not 100 percent
workforce affordable housing, which naturally draws a lower demand
for parking.
And so in our operations, we own and operate these assets for
the long term. The last thing we want to do is get calls from our
residents, and it has happened before where we get calls from our
residents complaining that there's just not enough parking, and it
makes operations a nightmare.
And so given our experience -- and you can see our portfolio
here on the left -- we typically target about 1.5 is our minimum for
family development parking ratio. If you look at our portfolio, we're
averaging 1.62, and this is across the country from Texas, Georgia,
Florida, and Arizona.
Our current developments that are under construction now
average also, coincidentally, pure coincidence, 1.62 as well. It
wasn't a target. But our target is really 1.5. We found that that is
February 27, 2024
Page 161
satisfactory to serve our tenants, to serve their guests, to serve the
amenities.
So, operationally, that's where we always strive to be. We can
put some data behind that as we would with an administrative
parking reduction. We typically do parking counts at the highest
point of parking throughout the day, see how many cars are in the
parking lot. There's a lot of things that we've done to be able to
justify that if we go that route.
But that it one of the rubs here. We are slightly under-parked,
and there's a few ways we can solve it: Through the administrative
parking reduction and through the preemption under state statute.
We've also talked about splitting up or reducing the preserve. I
don't know if that's a variance that you've seen come across the dais
too often, but that is an option. If you could reduce the preserve, we
obviously open up more surface area to achieve parking.
And stormwater management. I'm just going to hit a few high
points because I'm going to let Ryan come up and speak at a much
more technically proficient level.
This project, as I stated previously, we have a lot of eyes on us.
We have a lot of hooks in us. We have a lot of jurisdiction
regulation that we have to comply with; Collier County's code,
SFWMD, ERP, Department of Environmental Protection, Florida
DEP. All of that, especially -- you know, very much a different
requirement and a level of scrutiny and a level of design requirements
than it was just five to 10 years ago as well. And so environmental
protections are very highly scrutinized and would be on this project
nonetheless.
Some of the site characteristics that we've talked about,
engineering methods that are proven. We're using them, you know.
There's a lot of sites that are in similar or worse conditions
throughout the county that are developed regularly right now.
February 27, 2024
Page 162
Numerous waterways in Collier County are considered to be
impaired waterways.
Henderson Creek is considered to be an impaired waterway, and
I think that had something to do with the nutrient levels in there
where there was contaminates that were found. And I think after
Hurricane Ian that was more pronounced because a lot of those
houses on there are on septic. And as the water table rose, a lot of
that got washed into Henderson Creek.
Our development does not use a septic system. We use a pretty
highly engineered control and engineering method that requires catch
basins that have filters that filter out the oils, trash, hydrocarbons, go
into a vault where they're retained and treated. They sit in the vault
until they're treated, then they're discharged into the preserve and
Henderson Creek at the level that we're permitted to, because it is an
impaired waterway.
So that's kind of the general. That's as far as I go on the
understanding of it. Ryan will speak a little more eloquently on that.
So, Ryan, please. Thanks.
MR. WHITE: Hello. Ryan White with Davidson Engineering.
You did a good job talking about the stormwater. We are
proposing the catch basin inserts to filter. It's a treatment training
process that most all projects have to go through these days to meet
South Florida standards, and that includes the nutrient removal.
And, currently, it's a pre/post design they'll make us do. We
analyze the existing site, determine what the existing runoff is per the
accepted runoff rates and loading rates for that type of use that's
currently there, and then we'll propose a system that will treat the
stormwater and provide the removal rate and the post condition to be
less than it is in the existing condition.
This is going to involve using catch basin inserts or a filter on
the catch basins that initially collect the runoff, the trash, the
February 27, 2024
Page 163
hydrocarbons, the oils running off there to reduce that, and it will
enter the stormwater vaults. And the first, it will be considered dry
retention, and it will meet the standards of the Harvey Harper report,
or the nutrient analysis that we'll do to determine how much removal
we'll need for that, and then that water quality will be set higher,
typically, with -- than what is normally required for the previous
system. The one-inch are two-and-a-half times percent impervious.
So the nutrient removal is a higher water-quality requirement than the
normal for, like, suspended solids.
So from there, once water quality is fully achieved -- and we're
going to be providing 150 percent of the water-quality requirement
because of the impaired waters that we'll be discharging to. But
once full water quality is achieved, then we'll utilize the preserve area
or any other area on the site, too, for open-air stage storage to help
attenuate the 25-year storm event. And then from there we'll control
the discharge to Henderson Creek based on the updated discharge
rates for the county. And then this one happens to be in the Belle
Meade south area, which has the .04 CFS per acre discharge, which is
the lowest in the county. So we'll be utilizing their model to mimic
that discharge rate.
MR. SHEAR: Do you want to say anything about the traffic,
our next steps?
MR. WHITE: Oh, yeah. The traffic, the next steps, we're
going to have -- we're setting up a methodology meeting with Collier
County, which is required for all Site Development Plans, and we'll
also be coordinating with the right-of-way department along with the
FDOT, too, for the access points and traffic distribution and any
potential right-of-way or sidewalks.
We don't have any of the vault laid out yet, but the vaults are
going to be under a majority of the parking lot area as well. We'll
just try to utilize the site as much as possible. This is typical with a
February 27, 2024
Page 164
lot of sites we've been seeing now with limited space and the cost of
land going up, that the vaults are an option now that everyone's been
looking at.
We'll have -- their accepted practice, the one -- we'll look at
several different products to see what's the most economical to make
sure that it's affordable. There -- we've been using them on multiple
projects now throughout the county, and they've been working fine,
as far as we've seen. We will help treat all the water underground.
You won't really notice it, but it will infiltrate in the ground. Those
inspection points are all there; it will be maintained properly to
maintain the volume and the system.
MR. SHEAR: Thanks, Ryan. Much better explanation than I
could have given.
I just have a couple more slides, and I would look forward to
hearing some feedback.
So we do have -- I met a couple of our neighbors already, so it
was nice to see some faces of folks that are, you know, concerned,
and their concerns are perfectly understandable. But if you're not in
the development space, you know, it may not be clear the amount of
regulation, design controls, engineering controls that we actually
employ on these projects. So I hope this presentation has cleared up
a few of their questions. But we still, nonetheless, will have a
neighborhood information meeting, commit to that in the next 30 to
45 days. What we're really waiting for is just to get our site plan
ironed out to a point that it's presentable, and we're pretty much there.
So that is our next step. Just wanted to make that clear.
And then I'll leave you with just a picture of what -- you know,
what this product will ultimately, you know, be built to the level of.
I mean, this is maybe not the exact same look and design, but I think
the county, who we're partnered with on a similar basis under a land
lease -- you know, this is the level of product that we're going to
February 27, 2024
Page 165
achieve.
So I appreciate the opportunity to come back so quickly. Like I
said, we are still moving at a good clip here, and we want to keep this
progress going in moving to negotiation of the development
agreement. This is not moving to the county cutting the check in
any form for the acquisition of the land at this point. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you.
Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yes. First of all, I want to
say thank you. Commissioner Saunders described this, when I asked
for this reconsideration, as a fire drill, and you have been stepping
and fetching to be able to meet my request.
I want to -- I do want to hear from staff with regard to your
rendition of the stormwater quality, quantity. I also want to have, at
some particular stage, a discussion with you after we've talked to
staff about the parking, about the ingress and egress. I saw a deficit
for stacking at the actual entrance on 951/Collier Boulevard as a
potential for a block. That's just a -- even though it's a two-lane
road, it's a two-lane road, and if six people decide to go in there at the
same time, we end up with stacking coming out onto -- onto the
southbound 951.
And then as far as parking goes, let's explore the discussion of
impervious parking over in some of the preserve area that's over
there. That may be a methodology for us to get -- because -- and
we're going to have a discussion under commissioner comments with
regard to the lack of necessary -- in my opinion, necessary parking
requisites that are currently within the LDC. Even though this
development's coming in at a deficit, I think we have deficits built
into the LDC. So I'd like to have that discussion at some point in
time before we cut you loose.
MR. McDOWELL: For the record, Pat McDowell.
February 27, 2024
Page 166
I can speak to our historical parking experience because I have
bought and operated other properties that were shown on the page
there. And so I had my staff go back -- and I wasn't sure what the
answer was going to be.
I had them go back and take a look at the workforce housing that
we had bought over the years and put together that chart, and we
came up with 28 properties, 7,000 units, and our average was 1.62.
And the unit mix is extremely similar to the unit mix we're going to
have at the project that we're proposing here.
So I'll just say that I'm comfortable -- we don't meet the
requirements. We don't meet, you know, what the code is, but my
experience is, is that we have plenty of parking scheduled for this
property to handle the unit mix that we have and the tenancies that
we have, given historical experience that we have.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Do you have any, other than
Bembridge that we -- and I mean no disrespect. I hope -- I've said
this to you before, and I'm going to say it again because the cameras
are running, I'm not your enemy.
Do you have another community other than -- in Collier County
where the average median income is 107,000 plus? Eighty percent
of 107,000 is a two-car household for a one-bedroom apartment.
MR. McDOWELL: In Collier County I don't.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And so that's -- and that's
where I take exception to the standard rule of 1.6 working, with all
due respect. It may work in other areas that have AMIs that are
more -- realistic is a word that comes to my head. And I'm not
debating it.
MR. McDOWELL: We can discuss this later --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'm just talking out loud.
MR. McDOWELL: Some of them are in Austin and some
places like that that are not cheap areas to live in. But, you know,
February 27, 2024
Page 167
not Collier County.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I understand.
MR. McDOWELL: And point well taken. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: That's my point, sir, is
the -- our AMI is exceptionally high across the country, and you're
dealing with -- even at 30 percent, you're still dealing with a
$32,000-a-year annual income for the one-bedroom apartments and
all the way up to -- and at some point, I think I heard Chris say, you
shift over to 80 percent, and I don't think our AMI's going to go
down. That's where I'd like to appropriate as much parking as
possible and explore -- that's why I suggested the impervious parking
over in the preserve area, if we can get there.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Do you want Ms. Cook to answer your
stormwater questions?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Please.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Step right up there, Ms. Cook.
MS. COOK: Good afternoon. Jaime Cook, your director of
Development Review.
Commissioner, I'm not really sure where your question's going,
but as Ryan did say, we do have a number of size-constrained sites
that are doing stormwater vaulting now. It is not prohibited within
our code. They will be having to go through both review by Collier
County as well as the Water Management District to ensure that they
are adequately maintaining and treating their stormwater on the site.
Some examples of some recent projects that we've done in
stormwater, vaulting on our OneNaples, Aspire, Blue Coral
Apartments, Porsche has done it, several -- the Gulf Shore Playhouse,
which is being developed in the industrial park, amongst some others,
and I do have a map showing them around the county, if you'd like to
see them.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: No. You telling me that is
February 27, 2024
Page 168
just fine.
MS. COOK: Yes.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: One of the reasons why we're
here today is to revisit these items that I don't think were as well
explained in the first go-round.
The second point -- and when you and I met in my office
had -- were you able to get any baseline data on Henderson Creek as
of now?
MS. COOK: There is none that currently exists. The
monitoring that is done is done actually in Rookery Bay. So there is
none in this location currently.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: So what I would like to see
soon is baseline data from the bridge that goes under 951, the bridge
where the creek goes under 951 -- and notice I called it a creek this
time -- because that's where the discharge is going to be, and then go
up the creek, upstream to monitor what's going on. Because we have
a condominium project next door. We have a mobile home park
across the street on the south side of the creek. And there's a lot of
effluents hitting the waterway. We already know it's an impaired
waterway. So baseline, that is imperative to ensure that the water
quality that's imposed upon a developer is sufficient.
MS. COOK: Understood. And we will work with the
applicant and our pollution control team to develop that study and get
some monitoring data for you.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Please, prior to them
breaking ground.
MS. COOK: Absolutely.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Thank you, Chairman.
I'll have more questions when we hear from the citizens, but just
a couple things I wrote down here.
February 27, 2024
Page 169
So, Chris, from two weeks ago, same amount of units, same
height. You didn't change any of that, or did I miss something?
MR. SHEAR: Same.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Same.
MR. SHEAR: Just to your point, Commissioner, one of the
reasons we are static on the number of units and the height, we do
have an application in with the state that's now been approved, and so
that application contemplated what we had proposed, which was
verified under the Live Local zoning interpretation we received.
And as it relates to parking, I would have no problem dropping
the height of the building, but what that does is it limits my surface
area, because I'm having to put those units on the grade now probably
taking up another 60 feet in line on the building. To accomplish
that, I would lose surface area for parking.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: That's if you kept the units
the same amount, then you'd have to spread out more. But as you're
saying here, you can't change the number of units because your
application's already in. And if you -- right?
MR. SHEAR: We would lose that funding.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Absolutely. Okay.
I like that you moved the preserve. My question is, is the
preserve all vegetation, or is there some sort of water retention on
there? I was trying to -- I understand the vault system, and Jaime
explained it perfectly; a lot of people use it. But does any of that
water, then, get retained in the preserve area? It's all vegetation?
MR. WHITE: Again, Ryan White, Davidson Engineering.
Yeah, the vault would be handling all the water quality, and then
as the water level rises, it would be conveyed over into the preserve
area for water management to allow it to help attenuate. It's clean
water going over to the preserve, and that would help attenuate the
25-year storm event.
February 27, 2024
Page 170
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: So it makes that preserve
area more of wetlands, then, when that happens, right?
MR. WHITE: Well, it's uplands now, but uplands are
all -- these type of soils in our area here are used to being inundated
with water.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: My only concern with that
is --
MR. WHITE: It would only be temporarily inundated, just
during the larger storm events.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: My only concern with that
is -- and there's workaround. There's still some things -- is
sometimes it can draw a lot of mosquitoes. You know, you
have -- now you've dumped a lot of water into that. And we have
areas where it happens naturally. You know, people all complain
about the mosquitoes, and they just have a bunch of vegetation
behind them. It's not something artificially, you know, part of a
construction project. It's just undeveloped land, but then
we're -- you know, we're ringing the bat phone to the Mosquito
Control folks because that area's just inundated. So when you dump
water into an area that's preserve, it sometimes can create other kinds
of issues.
MR. WHITE: And we will be following the preserve
standards, and then when you do do water management in a preserve,
there is some extra requirements you have to put on the site plan to
monitor the vegetation to make sure you're not changing the habitat,
that it still survives.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Okay. That would be
something we'd have to -- and we're not -- we haven't approved
anything, but, you know, that puts it close to Henderson Creek. So if
you had an excessive amount of maybe a mosquito problem -- and it
can be dealt with. We just have to monitor it. But that was -- you
February 27, 2024
Page 171
answered my question, which was there would be water that would
eventually go into the preserve making it sort of like you --
MR. WHITE: I'm just leaving that as an option now to limit the
vault cost so that we can use parts of this site for open-air storage.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Okay. And then, I
mean -- I'll wait to hear from others, but, you know, when you have
an affordable housing project like this that's full of workforce people,
which is -- and it's not 100 percent. There will be people living here,
like you said, veterans, retirees, but there'll be a big chunk of folks
that get up in the morning, go to work, and then come home and, you
know, exit and enter at the same time.
Gosh, just one entry and exit point on Collier Boulevard being
the main one, I mean, I can just see -- you know, a lot of the
workforce kind of go to work in that one, you know, window of time.
I can see a big stack-up there, and then coming home, you know, a
similar thing.
I'm not saying I know what the approved solution is. I mean,
you could move another entry and exit point, you know, further down
in the parking lot area, but that still may not help anything, you know.
I mean, this isn't that big of a site where you can put another entry
and egress point, like, on the other side or something like that. But
that just jumped out.
I mean, I love the changes that you made. And I can tell you,
one of the smartest guys in the room, that I'm sure we're going to hear
from, is Rick Albertie -- Albertie, right, sir?
So he was in my office yesterday, maybe in all of our offices,
and he represents the community very well, very professionally, I
might add. Sometimes, you know, you get citizens that come into
your office banging on tables, we just want it to be a park, you know,
and it's like, okay, we're trying to solve an issue here.
But those were just sort of the short-term answers [sic] I had.
February 27, 2024
Page 172
And I don't know what the answer is on the -- you know, you do
traffic counts, and then you say, hey, if 80 percent of the people all
leave between 7 and 8 a.m., they're all pulling out of that one exit
point onto Collier Boulevard. Collier Boulevard's already swamped,
you know, at that time in the morning. You know, I don't know that
there's a better solution, so it's not like I have a better design. But I
just -- maybe you do, or maybe there was an alternative or there was
something else.
MR. SHEAR: We very well could end up having to put in
deceleration lanes to make the left in going -- going towards Marco,
making the left into the property, and then certainly from Marco
going to 41, they're probably going to require a deceleration lane.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I like -- I like -- and you
mentioned it. I like everything you've done to keep the cars away
from Henderson Creek. You know, we're not trying to overinundate
that road. But, you know, Collier's also a road that's pretty full
and -- you know, and this one complex having all the cars sort of
coming in and out on just that one spot -- but we'll talk a little more
about it. You answered --
MR. SHEAR: You do have a Walmart that, you know, is just
down the road where there is significant traffic going in and out.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Yeah, but they have a light
there.
MR. SHEAR: They do have a light.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: See, that's the thing; they
have a light. That was my thought. But then you guys will scream
for a light, and I can tell you -- I mean, you know, we can't put a light
at every intersection, and so -- and FDOT approves the lights.
They'd never put a light there. It's too close to other lights, so that's
why this has to be solved naturally.
The light helps, obviously, at Walmart and at some other of the
February 27, 2024
Page 173
major intersections, but that stretch is already light heavy, and so
lights -- a light wouldn't be approved, would be my guess, you know,
for a complex like this.
But I really commend you for, like you say -- Commissioner
McDaniel said it perfectly, you know, you put on your fireman's hat,
and I like the changes. But I'll like it a lot more if I hear from the
citizens who have really spent a lot of time -- Rick, really leading the
charge here -- to see what they think.
This is also a perfect example -- you know, just going back a
little bit ago. Yeah, it's in my district, but look at all the
commissioners here. Look how involved they are. You know,
nothing gets past us. Maybe I know a little bit more about some of
the -- some of the heartburn of some folks in District 1 because
maybe, you know, I'm the only one that has town hall meetings in
District 1.
But you can see everybody up here cares about affordable
housing, asking tough questions, you know. Nothing's getting past
us for those that are sort of watching.
You know, we -- what did you say, Commissioner Hall? None
of us wake up in the morning trying to do a bad thing for Collier
County.
But I like the changes. I like the move of the preserve. Some
of the other changes that you made, I'm sure that was after talking to
citizens and maybe even a couple of the commissioners. I'm not
sure we're 100 percent there yet. We'll see what the citizens have to
say, but you answered my initial questions.
Thanks, Chris.
MR. SHEAR: You bet.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner McDaniel, back at you,
sir.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah, I forgot. You took so
February 27, 2024
Page 174
long, I forgot what I was going to ask.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Well, you know, it's my
district.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well, I guess the point is, do
we want to bring Trinity up now and ask about the traffic with regard
to the stacking and such? Is there a methodology -- do you want to
bring them up --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Either that or citizen
comments. Maybe we might hear --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Let's get staff out of the way
and then hear -- huh?
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I wanted to ask Chris a question,
because he made a comment about the traffic.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. Trinity's coming.
Then we'll get her after you. Go ahead.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: If you don't mind.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I don't mind.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Chris, in your presentation, you
did -- you made the statement that the majority of traffic would go to
41. What makes you think that if Marco has a need for, you know,
people to work on the island in a lot of their businesses? And this
being a midpoint where -- you know, we have systems in Marco.
We actually have CAT buses that run at special hours just to get these
people off the island and sit on that bus for an hour, hour and a half.
MR. SHEAR: Pure speculation.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah, and that's what I'm saying.
So I know --
MR. SHEAR: And I know there's more accidents and
commercial going towards 41. But you're absolutely right, this
development will probably appeal to some of the folks who work on
Marco but cannot afford to live on the island, so that's a great point.
February 27, 2024
Page 175
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah. So I just wanted
to -- you know, we'll learn a little bit more about the traffic and how
we're going to have our egress-to-egress lanes and stuff, but I think
that's something we need to look at, because you surely don't want to
make a right and have to do a U-turn on Collier to go south. So
thank you.
MR. SHEAR: Yeah. And I think that -- the good part is we
have a full median cut there already.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay.
MR. SHEAR: And so that can be solved. We don't have to go
and apply for an FDOT to get a median cut. That is a longer process
and often isn't approved. So we're on the right track there already.
You make a great point. I appreciate that.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thanks.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well, then that's my question
with regard to traffic. What kind of analysis is, in fact, done? How
do we estimate from a population? You move -- Trinity's behind
you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Trinity can do it in 21 seconds.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yes, or less.
MS. SCOTT: For the record, Trinity Scott, Transportation
Management Services department head.
This applicant will be required to do a Traffic Impact Statement
when they come in. They will look at distribution. They will hire a
professional traffic engineer who is going to look at distributions
within that area.
Looking at the area, there's probably going to be a pretty decent
split that is going to wind up in Marco Island. That is a large
movement for us, but not saying that they're not going to go north.
This is really a pivotal place for us to be able to have some attainable
housing for folks.
February 27, 2024
Page 176
But what I will tell you about the traffic is Collier County will
not be making the decision with regard to what happens on Collier
Boulevard. That is a state facility. The Florida Department of
Transportation will weigh in on that, will be the ones who require
what deceleration lanes are going to be there and what they don't
allow.
Furthermore, this section of roadway previously was in the work
program, FDOT's work program for widening in Fiscal Year '28. It
has been pushed out to Fiscal Year '29, which would widen this
section of roadway to six lanes, so you would see a median through
the roadway. It will probably look very similar to the section that's
north.
So I'm trying to pull up the plans right now, but I'm on WiFi, so
my computer keeps shutting down and not allowing me to open them
up to see what this section looks like.
But certainly, when FDOT developed those plans, this wasn't
taken into consideration, so things may have to be modified.
But they will not only be talking to Collier County, on the
stormwater and through the Site Development Plan process, we will
coordinate with the Florida Department of Transportation, as will
they.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And will we have any input
into the DOT with regard to the ingress and egress as far as turning
lanes, acceleration lanes, decel lanes, and such?
MS. SCOTT: Typically, we do not. Typically, FDOT is the
authority. My guess is they're going to have to have a deceleration
lane. FDOT's going to look really hard at that median opening that
exists today because it doesn't look like it has a turn lane. Presuming
they're going to have to put a turn lane, depending on how close that
is to Henderson Creek -- or Henderson Creek Drive. That may be a
deciding factor. But all of those things they'll look at, the traffic
February 27, 2024
Page 177
impacts, how much traffic they expect to have with the development,
and FDOT will make the decisions accordingly.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Thank you.
MS. SCOTT: You're welcome.
CHAIRMAN HALL: So I guess my question is: Do we need
to revote for the surtax money going forward for the project or just
add this discussion as record?
MR. KLATZKOW: No. You need a new motion. This was a
reconsideration.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Do we have public comment?
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: We've got comment.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Oh, we've got public comment.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'm not --
MR. MILLER: Yes, sir. I have 13 registered speakers for this
item. I'll remind the speakers again to use both podiums.
Jackie Keay will be followed by Jessica Turner.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She left.
MR. MILLER: Then Jackie will be followed by Robert
Williams.
MS. KEAY: Thank you. So good afternoon. Jackie Keay. I
am an Army veteran, and I live here in Collier County. I'm the
veteran outreach team director for The Journey Home.
We are dealing with many veterans in our community who are
not only homeless, living on the streets, living in parking -- parking
lots, whether they're living in storage sheds -- I have a veteran who
pretty much lost his home and couldn't afford to find a place to live.
I did write an e-mail, certainly out of frustration because I know
that there are apartments that have came up or are coming up and
veterans are told -- or I'm being told that veterans cannot have these
apartments or cannot apply for them because they're not on the
essential service personnel list.
February 27, 2024
Page 178
So out of frustration, I did write an e-mail. I went up to
Tallahassee, and I provided an e-mail for the commissioners. And
the way I look at it, if veterans -- if we're essential enough to fight for
our country and die for our country, we should be essential enough to
get housing.
Now, based on the statutes, I included that in the letter from
Senator Wright, it does clearly provide the language for veterans to
get these housing.
So I would like to request that veterans in Collier County are put
on that list, and local authority, as well as the housing program, can
make that determination. So whatever needs to be done to get the
veterans or military members put on the list, I would love to see that.
What I have is a diagram. For our organization, our focus is on
building that bridge. The words are very small. So what we have is
veterans are falling between that gap, and we're working with not
only EMS, looking at adding the hospitals as well as the jails, veteran
court, putting together a collaboration of partners to work together to
ensure that veterans have not only the housing but also all of the
services that they need. I'm working closely with Commissioner
Saunders on that, but I would absolutely love all of the
commissioners' support on ensuring that we get veterans not only on
that priority list but also to help us to create a system of serving
veterans.
Next chart, please.
So on that chart, you'll notice that spike. That is the point at
which a veteran goes into crisis, whether they're homeless or whether
it's issues related to mental health. And up to that crisis point, that's
about a one-year period, but you'll notice after the crisis point, the
stressors of whatever the issue is still high, so that leads them into the
next crisis.
So our organization, we're focused on putting our system before
February 27, 2024
Page 179
the crisis to divert that crisis.
So, again, thank you all very much, and whatever the staff has to
do or whatever you-all have to do, I would love feedback on that,
please.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Robert Williams. He'll
be followed by Rick Aldertie. I hope -- Albertie. I hope I'm saying
that right.
Mr. Williams was ceded three additional minutes from Lynn
Thye. She's out there. So he'll have a total of six minutes.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you. My name is Bobby Williams.
Mr. Rick LoCastro, you're my new commissioner. I moved to
your district --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Our district.
MR. WILLIAMS: Our district, thank you.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Our district.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Bill McDaniel, for my
previous -- serving me in my old district.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Oh, you'll be much better in
District 1.
MR. WILLIAMS: Good, I hope so. And your distinguished
commissioners, thank you very much for your service.
My concern is this area. See, I was born here. My father's the
youngest of 15. My grandfather was Barefoot Williams at the end of
Barefoot Williams Road, where the Oyster House was on Henderson
Creek. Now, if you've been here long enough, you've seen a lot of
development. I know I have. And you've seen what it can do to our
environments.
This development proposed here on Henderson Creek, it should
sum it up right here in the newspaper last week. The EPA, the State
of Florida, the permitting issues over to the state, not over to the state.
February 27, 2024
Page 180
Some of them this says was -- several years of improperly reviewed.
This is just some of the stuff. They go on to talk about our manatees
being left out in the cold. Very environmentally sensitive in this
newspaper, and the very next page is this housing deal to get a second
look. Thanks again.
With our Live Local tax dollars, on a 180-unit development on a
very sensitive creek, not a river or -- it is a creek that feeds our
estuary, Rookery Bay, Conservancy, and a lot of filtrations for our
waterways. This development, 180 units in that small area, the cars
are the big issue to me. You're talking about vaults and storm drain
runoff, commercial sized whatever, and then you talk about reducing
the cost of it to something inexpensive so you can make this happen.
Well, okay. You want to get cheap stuff now, I'm
thinking -- what I'm hearing -- sorry to make this not very
professional. But then I hear of the reserve [sic]. Okay. Now I'm
hearing they want to use some of the reserve for parking, which holds
more oils and pesticides and what have you, runoff.
Then I hear they're going to have a runoff into the creek as long
as the water has been treated, or what have you, with your -- with
your machines and things. But we all know we're in a coastal hazard
area. This place floods more than once a year, twice a year, once a
month, many times every week. That runoff isn't going to be held or
contained. It's going to run right into the creek.
So that doesn't hold too much water with the systems that are
being used. I don't know what kind of surveys or the things that you
go to to get that approved.
I know that there are other questions that other people have. I
got a list. I went on a little yard sale two days ago. I was there a
half an hour. These are people who live in that little neighborhood
who are concerned, just that half an hour of signatures.
The Land Development Code requirements as well, you need
February 27, 2024
Page 181
that of the state also, as I guess I hear. And the medium [sic] car
allowed -- you're figuring 1.5 cars per unit, you're calculating. I
don't see that also happening. We all know it takes two to live.
And just to get back with you, I think it should be reconsidered
with the Live Local tax dollars we're using. I know there are other
lands out there that can be used for the same development. I'm
not -- I am pro development, but I also want to make sure our
environment is kept.
I've seen it -- I've seen it go away with development. And
we've made a lot of mistakes in the past with decisions that we've
done in developing. And I appreciate your comments on common
sense on things other than the law or the rules, because some things
deserve common sense, not just calculations, especially, like,
environmental sensitive areas like this, which affects all of us,
actually, in the whole county, because this is a way of life that, you
know, we don't want to lose. Before you know it, it will look like
Vietnam or something. I've seen all those waterways.
So I'm just a very concerned citizen that would like to have
more surveys or, like you said, testing on certain areas and
waterways. And, again, I don't like the idea of inexpensive
machineries and filters and vaults, and I don't like the idea of
discharging any kind of water into the creek. You already
acknowledge it's a very, very sensitive creek, so we should know
better.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Rick Albertie. He will be
followed by Terry Dignan.
Rick has been ceded additional time from Mike Dood.
MR. DOOD: Here.
MR. MILLER: And from Tina Cox.
MS. COX: Here.
February 27, 2024
Page 182
MR. MILLER: So he will have nine minutes.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Are we burning his nine
minutes while he's passing stuff out?
MR. MILLER: We are not, sir.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I want to go to work in
shorts.
MR. MILLER: Common practice is to wait till they state their
name.
MR. ALBERTIE: Can I start talking without stating my name?
MR. MILLER: Well, no. I'm getting you.
MR. ALBERTIE: Hi, I'm Rick Albertie. Pleasure to meet
everyone here.
Before I get started, just a couple things I want to bounce off. I
have more questions probably than issues, but I have quite a few of
both.
A couple of questions I had, in regards to the 75-foot building,
my understanding was that the buildings that were created had to be
within one mile, had to be the same height or not higher than any
other buildings within that area for one mile. What I saw in the
paper, what it said, when it compared it to Fiddler's -- yeah, Fiddler's
Creek, which is more like five miles away. So I wasn't sure if that's
what you were looking at when you're comparing. Didn't it need to
be one-mile distance?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: This isn't
question-and-answer time.
MR. ALBERTIE: I'm sorry.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: They'll come back up.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: They'll come back. You ask
your questions, then they'll come back and answer them.
MR. ALBERTIE: Okay. Okay. It's just something that came
up.
February 27, 2024
Page 183
What I'd like to start with was the paper that I handed out to you,
and this was from your housing policy development group, and this
was their recommendation. And I just had to wonder why their
application ID did not sufficient score to secure a recommendation.
But still, we followed through and decided to go with this company?
Is that --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Keep going.
MR. ALBERTIE: I'm sorry.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: You only have nine minutes.
MR. ALBERTIE: Okay. The other question I had was, my
understanding in reading the paper, now that the state has given the
feds all the change for permits, I wondered if that had any -- in
regards to this project, if there's any -- if they have to resubmit their
permits to the feds for that. And I have to do -- I do have to say one
thing. When we put a petition out, everyone signed at our park, and
this was the one time everybody in the park agreed on something is
that we found not to be a good thing on our side.
My next page that I've handed out to you was in regards to
wildlife and wetlands. And, again, this was from one of the
documents that were in your agenda sheet for everything that's on this
project, and these were things that needed to be touched on. The No.
7 was from the Conservancy of Southwest Florida, and they had
concerns about the animals and the wildlife also. I was wondering if
a permit needed to be -- from them on that also. Again, I've got a lot
of questions.
The other issue that I had with the new project is the height level
of the pavement. What we've had from a different project that was
put in alongside us, they raised their height, so their rainwater all
comes down to our park, which -- and our ditches end up flooding
periodically, and the ditches out by Collier are completely flooded
too.
February 27, 2024
Page 184
The other one, the next one, to move a little along here, is a
two-page thing. One is a picture of Collier so you have a better
understanding of what we're looking at here. And I don't know if
anybody else has come across the bridge from Marco like Rick
LoCastro does. He sees it every day.
So when you're coming over that bridge from Marco, you're on a
two-lane bridge, and they're doing 50, 60 miles an hour. They're
already coming across there.
So the only options that we have right now coming off of
Henderson is we have to turn to the right, we have to go down to
Walmart, and if we want to go to Marco, go the other way.
We have -- we at least have people coming from Marco. They
can come in. And you'll see on the green line, that is kind of our
little runoff ramp so they can get onto Henderson. What we would
see with the new project is they'd have to increase that. So if they're
coming from Marco and pulling off into their lot, we won't know.
They're not going to have a turn signal on, so we don't know that we
can actually take off because that car's coming in.
And then if they're coming out of that lot, if you're coming over,
you know, they're going to try to get out of their -- out of their
parking space while the people are coming over on northbound
Collier. It's an accident waiting -- looking to happen.
Then the other question I had in regards to your crossover from
Tower Road here, that is a two-car limit. That's not a section that
you can sit there and have cars waiting. They already have issues
there every day. People try to get on and off.
And, again, one more thing on that. If you're looking at -- when
you are coming out of -- out of our road -- I'm sorry -- Henderson
Creek Road, if you're looking to the left to see what's coming, you
cannot see the cars until you get -- they're overtop of the bridge. The
bridge actually hides the cars to an effect. So you've got about
February 27, 2024
Page 185
900 feet to make a decision, and at 60 miles an hour, it doesn't give
you a lot of time.
So it's either way. Either you're coming southbound and you're
making a quick cutover, or you're trying to get off Henderson Creek
to get onto Collier northbound. While you're doing all that, you're
also watching for walkers, bikers, periodic people just walking by
both ways.
And what also increases is that we've got Walmart at the north
end. So you've got a lot of people coming all the way from Manatee.
They walk over the bridge and are walking along the sidewalk. So
you've got a constant trek of people. If you could stop that, that
would be great, but it's not going to stop.
And then go down to the last page, as you walk through these,
the one question -- the first question I have is the height of the
workforce project and comparing to Fiddler's Creek, which is five
miles away. The other one was, we did a -- we got to the
spreadsheet from the traffic department. And if you look at from
10 a.m. to 7 p.m., the average time from January to March is one car
every two seconds.
Okay. So if you think about that, that's pretty good for a
two-lane road. That's continuous, you know, never stopping. You
get -- the only time you get breaks are when you get at the light at
Manatee, which is south of there, but the other problem there is
Manatee has a -- you can right turn on red. So you've got all the
condos and all the other people coming down Manatee. As soon as
they get a spot, they fill that road right up, exactly. So it's
continuous traffic.
And then what happens, when you're coming on southbound
Collier to turn in, you're looking not only at the cars coming over the
road, anybody that's coming off of Tower Road, but then also, as
you're cutting in, you're looking, because it's a very narrow road, is
February 27, 2024
Page 186
the people walking. You've got people walking, and once they walk
in, you know, they may be walking down the side of the road. So
you're very limited on size, you know. So you can't really speed up
too much or they're -- the worry of trying to hit someone.
And our park is about 310 units, and we're probably maybe a
third, maybe a little bit more, of the total number of people. So it's a
continuous traffic flow coming through there with people walking
and the cars coming through.
Let's see here.
Yeah, and then -- and also, once this project is in there, I can't
imagine the amount of walking traffic going to Walmart, you know.
It's going to be so easy for them, just like it is for us. It's just down
the street.
And the fact of -- if you had -- you had 1.5 cars per unit, you're
talking, you know, almost 250 more additional cars coming through
there. I see nothing but hard -- you know, problems, accidents, and
fatalities. I don't see how you can get around it. I wish they could.
They have a beautiful building. I would love to see it. I wish they
would change it over to maybe some high-end condos of some type.
But then also, as you see, their parking lot goes out into
Henderson Road also. If they're pulling out there and you've only
got -- you've got people coming into Henderson from the southbound,
you have the chance that if somebody's going slow or they hold it up,
so you can be backed up outside of -- outside of the Henderson right
onto Collier. I could easily see that where cars are going slow or
stopping because they're turning or waiting for somebody else to turn.
It's too small of an area for very many cars to get any mobility to get
around.
Bear with me. Well, the other question, too, in regards to that
first letter, this is a coastal high hazardous area, and I'm surprised that
we would allow building in a section like that. Thank you.
February 27, 2024
Page 187
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Terry Dignan, and he will
be followed by Elizabeth Radi.
Terry's been ceded additional time from Bridgette Cook. Could
you raise your hand, Bridgette?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOICE: She's outside.
MR. MILLER: And Steve Cook?
(Raises hand.)
MR. MILLER: Steve Cook. Well, hi.
You will have a total of nine minutes and be followed by
Elizabeth Radi.
MR. DIGNAN: Good afternoon, gentlemen. My name's Terry
Dignan. I'm the president at the condo association, Henderson Creek
Village, directly next door to this project.
And, actually, Mr. Albertie's brought up a lot of the things that I
wanted to address. And I'm going to hit the number-one thing first.
In talking about the -- I understand that the reason they were
permitted to go 75 feet up was because they were -- it was under the
Live Local Act which provides that they're allowed to go as high as
anything within one mile. I did some calculations the other day, and
I got a Google map out and located the entire Fiddler's Creek
program. It looks to me like -- and it goes way back in there all the
way up to 41. But it looks to me, at least by my calculation -- I may
be wrong, but I think I'm right. It looks like the shortest distance
between this particular property and Fiddler's Creek, which would be
way at the north end off Roost Road -- if you're familiar with it, it's a
little dead-end road -- is about 6500 feet, which is well over a mile.
And so I don't know who came up with this one
mile -- within-one-mile calculation, but that's my calculation.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Mr. Chairman.
MR. DIGNAN: I presume somebody from the county would
cross-check that.
February 27, 2024
Page 188
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It's either built or zoned. So
you can't just look around for a 75-foot-tall building. The property
across the street's 75-foot-high zoned. It's either zoned or built.
That's the answer.
MR. DIGNAN: This isn't zoned --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Two of you have asked the
question.
MR. DIGNAN: So it doesn't apply, or I mean --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It totally applies. It's --
MR. DIGNAN: They have to be -- they have to be within one
mile, or they can't use the --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay.
Maybe -- maybe -- we'll wait for further explanation till we're done.
I thought you understood. It is either built or zoned, and the
property --
MR. DIGNAN: Yeah, I understand it, but I don't think --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. The property across
the street's zoned for 75 foot high. It's not that, but they have a
zoning to do that.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Even if it's lower, it's
zoned --
MR. DIGNAN: Oh, so you're talking about there's another
building, not Fiddler's Creek? I was told that you were using --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. The gas station
across the street.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: It's zoned for 75 feet.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It's zoned for 75-foot height,
and that gives them -- that gives them that right. And forgive me.
Sorry, Mr. Chair. I broke my own rule.
MR. DIGNAN: Thank you. But in any event, you know, I
will second exactly what Mr. Albertie said, that Tower Road is a
February 27, 2024
Page 189
difficult place to get across the street. I try -- I ride my bike a lot,
and trying to get across to Tower Road at that intersection is very
difficult. The cars are coming fast both directions. It's a lot of cars.
And I'm afraid that's going to be a big problem.
They did address -- one of our concerns was the -- they wanted
to raise the elevation on their property. I didn't hear anything
mentioned about that, but apparently they've changed the buffer,
because we were worried about, you know, the water draining onto
our property, and --
But I think that the automobile situation is going to be difficult.
People are going to be trying to get out to go to work. People that
want to go to Marco, they're going to -- you know, everybody's going
to be trying to come out. People are going to start coming out the
exit only or the entrance only ramp so they can get on the road, and
it's going to be a mess.
And that's all I have to say, and thank you very much.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Elizabeth Radi, and she
will be followed by Doug Williams.
MS. RADI: Good afternoon, again. Elizabeth Radi. I am
speaking on behalf of the Collier County Tenants Union and the
tenants in Collier County future workforce housing.
About a month ago, I received a phone call from a reporter
asking me for my opinion. The reporter asked me what I thought of
the first ever Collier County surtax project for workforce housing by
McDowell. I stated I was excited and I knew this developer, but it
was just a drop in the giant bucket compared to the need we currently
have for attainable housing that is remotely affordable.
In my discussion with this reporter, I spoke about the heart
behind this development team that I have witnessed and their genuine
passion to help make this a reality. I, for the first time in a long
time, could see hope for the tenants in Collier County, and it's
February 27, 2024
Page 190
because McDowell chose to be part of the solution and not the
problem.
It's been a while since I've been here to these meetings, but that
doesn't mean I haven't been involved in the fight for affordable
housing. I've just concentrated my efforts differently.
Timing was mentioned at the first meeting, and I want to speak
about that. I'm a disaster case manager for a non-profit organization
and -- that is contracted through FEMA to help transition clients out
of FEMA housing into permanent living conditions. The problem
that 100 percent of the organizations are having is it's an impossible
feat to find affordable housing for those survivors, many of which fall
in the lower scale of the AMI. It's hard enough before Hurricane
Ian, and you all know that.
When I learned that McDowell was getting ready to finish an
affordable workforce and two affordable senior housing
communities, we saw hope for the first time for our community.
FEMA is getting ready to pull out of our community real soon,
and without McDowell's projects getting ready to open, many of
those people would not have the housing that they need, and they will
be homeless.
I have to tell you, working and helping rebuild trailers that can't
get insurance, most of these people are trailer-living individuals that
will wish that they had McDowell affordable housing because they're
SSI checks, their disability, their retirement will not cover repairing
or replacing one of those homes should -- when that hurricane
destroys it again, because the insurance won't cover it. And you will
wish, like all these people stuck on this FEMA housing that are fixing
to go homeless, that they had a McDowell apartment to live in.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Doug Williams, and he
will be followed by Monique Atkinson.
February 27, 2024
Page 191
MR. DOUG WILLIAMS: Hello. How everybody doing?
My name is Doug Williams. I'm a current resident at the Santa
Barbara Ekos apartments in Naples. The new -- the new affordable
housing initiative has helped me a lot in my life as a single father.
The apartments surpass expectations with its modern and comfortable
design.
I'm grateful for the chance, as it has provided a home for me and
my daughter. Previously, I had to rely on friends and places to stay
due to financial issues, you know, relationship, things like that.
As I said, the thing is, despite even having a steady job, working
hard, whatever you do, it's very -- like everyone is saying, it's very
difficult. We all know that. I mean, I've been here for 20 years in
Naples, and it's just been -- you know, it's just hard to find a place to
stay here. You know, I see it every day. I see homeless people all
over the street. I see -- I don't want to be that. I'm grateful for the
opportunity to even be where I'm at right now, you know. It means a
lot to me and my daughter.
So I'm grateful for what they're doing. And I understand that
there's a lot of community concerns and things like that, which
is -- and I understand that, but we've got to remember, you know,
we're people, you know, and we -- no one -- who wants to live on the
street? Who doesn't want to be able to live in a comfortable
environment where you can raise your family and be, you know, a
part of society, right? That's what we want. We all want that.
But that's it. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Monique Atkinson.
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HALL: Or Antonio Garcia?
MR. GARCIA: I will be speaking on behalf of my mother.
She didn't bring her glasses, so I prepared the speech for her.
I'm here to bring attention to the pressing issue of affordable
February 27, 2024
Page 192
housing in Collier County, specifically addressing the struggles that
many including myself have faced in securing suitable living
arrangements.
As a mother striving to provide a stable home for my son, I have
encountered numerous challenges while searching for suitable
housing in the area. Several apartment complex -- several apartment
complexes have denied my application citing the requirement for an
income four to five times the rent. The stringent criterion has proven
to be a significant barrier for individuals like me.
I'm immensely grateful for the existence of Ekos apartments, a
community that recognizes the diverse needs of its residents. The
inclusive approach and the acceptance have -- excuse me -- the
inclusive approach and the acceptance have alleviated the burden for
families like mine, offering a chance for a better life. However, such
communities are scarce, leaving my hard work -- excuse me.
Such communities are scarce, leaving many hard-working
individuals forced to work multiple jobs just to make ends meet,
often residing in unsafe neighborhoods due to limited affordable
housing options.
Collier County should prioritize the development of more
communities like Ekos apartments. This not only addresses the
immediate need for accessible housing but also contributes to the
well-being of families striving to build a secure future. Everyone in
our community should have the opportunity to live in a safe,
supportive environment without being burdened by excessive income
requirements.
By expanding the availability for affordable housing, we
empower families to escape the cycle of poverty and create a positive
ripple effect within our community.
I urge you to consider the struggles faced by many residents and
champion the development of additional communities like Ekos
February 27, 2024
Page 193
apartments to ensure that Collier County becomes a place where
every family can thrive. There are hard-working families working
two to three jobs to make ends meet, and they live in bad
neighborhoods. I think it's important that everyone should have that
opportunity.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Monique Atkinson. We'll try one more time.
I checked; she's not in the hallway, unless she's disguised herself as
Crystal Kinzel.
And that was all of our speakers.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I have a question. Chris,
I've got a question for you, or Mr. McDowell, either one.
How many people do you have on the waitlist on Ekos? You
have 82 units in Ekos. How many are on the wait list?
MR. SHEAR: I don't have an exact number, but it's well into
the -- over 100. I know last time --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Oh, it's way over 100.
MR. SHEAR: Way over 100. I heard it was 300 last time,
290-something.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Yeah. I heard it was close to
the 300 range. I was just wondering if it -- and you were -- you were
almost full. I know that you still had some empty units, but I think
you're hovering around -- I mean, we know it's not 50.
MR. SHEAR: It was empty only because we physically
couldn't move them in.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Right.
MR. SHEAR: But the leases were in place. The residents
were certified for occupancy. So it was effectively full before we
even received our certificate of occupancy.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I mean, I've been, you know,
February 27, 2024
Page 194
famous for saying this before. Sometimes you have to vote for the
thing that you hate the least. There's things I don't -- that I have
concerns about this project, and they're all traffic related and density
related. You know, I can appreciate the citizens that come up and
go, wow, I'm all for affordable housing but, you know, not on this
beautiful piece of property. Just let it sit. Find another spot for it.
Okay. Well, every green -- piece of green space has a
salamander on it and has plants on it. It's -- you know, I mean, all of
Collier County is -- was once preserve. I mean, you know, look at
Hammock Bay and Fiddler's Creek. What do you think that was?
That was all mangroves that everybody said was unbuildable, and
now look what's on there.
You know, we've talked up here about our -- the importance of
affordable housing and using the county housing money wisely with
a company that has a great track record and not wasting it, you know.
I mean, to me -- I mean, you're not going to get much better than this.
So I might call Trinity back up here at some point to just talk us
through is there anything that we're missing on the traffic piece
that -- and it might -- it might just take more analysis, so we might
not have the answer now.
But that's a -- that's a heavily populated area of bigtime
workforce people. You know, you're not building this thing in Port
Royal. You're building it in -- you know, in East Naples where
there's a big workforce there. I can see you're going to have a huge
waitlist for this regardless of -- you know, I mean, if we approved it,
immediately.
And so, I mean, I can think of more things I like about it than I
don't. I love the changes that you made. That's what I was hoping
for.
I had heard that the height and the density had changed, and that
must have been bad info, because you answered it perfectly; once you
February 27, 2024
Page 195
apply, then you're sort of stuck there. So reducing the footprint,
maybe alleviating the traffic.
I'm not a supporter of turning the preserve into a parking lot, so
that -- I plant that in Trinity's mind and just say, are we missing
something else that we could do either in the way egress and ingress
works? And to create more parking spots if we think we need them.
But, you know, the preserve's the preserve. It's one of the big
pluses that -- one of the things you changed. And so starting to eat
away at that, maybe in a smaller amount, it's not a big deal, but I'd
hate to see, like, half of that taken away. Then you've sort of, you
know, alleviated the point.
And then lastly I'll just say to Mr. McDowell, it must be -- you
must have a great sense of pride when you hear people that are living
in Ekos come up here totally unsolicited thanking you for all that
you've done.
You know, Elizabeth Radi, she's in the center of everything in
Collier County. So she hasn't spoken here much but -- lately, but
she knows what she's talking about. And you're certainly paddling
in the direction that we need.
Is this the location? Is this the size? Is this the parking lot?
Is Collier Boulevard busy? You know, all of those things
are -- anything -- you build anything, it's going to -- it's going to add
traffic. I mean, you know, there are people that didn't want Lely
Resort, I'm sure, and then when it was built, all the people that lived
in it were glad that the people who hated it lost.
But this is something a bit different. And to have the ability to
have basically 100 percent affordable housing type
communities -- we're not going to get many of these chances. And
there's not magic land somewhere. You know, to address the one
citizen that said, wow, everything's perfect about this, but not in our
backyard kind thing, we sort of know the map. You know the map.
February 27, 2024
Page 196
You didn't just arbitrarily pick this piece of property. It came
together because of the county and the money and all of those things.
So, you know, it may not be perfect -- and every time there's an
accident doesn't -- it doesn't mean that the road's improperly
designed. I mean, there's accidents that happen all over the place.
And as I was telling Rick when he was in my office, every time
there's an accident, we don't put up a stoplight or close the road.
And so, I mean -- but we want it to be safe, and so that's where I
would say maybe, Trinity, you could give us your thoughts sort of
having heard that. That's my -- those are my real concerns. You
know, I really like the ability to bring another Ekos type project in an
area where the waitlist is going to be huge instantaneously.
But what are your thoughts -- are they missing anything on
traffic, density, ingress, egress, anything of those things that you
think could take more analysis or that you have bigger concerns on or
could take a redesign or a second look? Not to slow the project
down, but to make the end result better, smarter, faster, cheaper, all
those things.
MS. SCOTT: Once again, for the record, Trinity Scott,
Transportation Management Services department head.
Sir, they are going to have to go through some significant
analysis with the Florida Department of Transportation that we -- and
our staff is going to look at that as well.
We're going to look at turn lanes. We're going to look at where
they line up as far as their driveway. All of those things are going to
be taken into consideration. That's in the next step when they
actually come in for the Site Development Plan and they're sitting
down with that pre -- with that methodology meeting with the Florida
Department of Transportation and applying for that permit.
All of you have experienced the rigorous analysis that the
Florida Department of Transportation requires. No different than the
February 27, 2024
Page 197
rigorous analysis that we would require if we were permitting this as
well. But we've all been through that when we want a -- we want a
traffic signal someplace or we want a median opening or something
modified. FDOT is going to look at this and go through all of that
analysis, and they will require, based on their regulations, what is
necessary.
As I said earlier, as I look at this, I would say a right-turn lane is
necessary for this development. It's not shown right now, but that
doesn't mean that they don't have the opportunity to be able to add
that in.
So that will -- those are things that will come about as part of
that analysis with the Florida Department of Transportation.
Looking at the distance of Tower Road compared to Henderson
Creek Drive, is there sufficient space to be able to get an additional
left-turn lane in if FDOT allows that opening where it is? Those are
all things that are going to be taken into consideration.
So what I would say is it's a great start, but we need to have that
analysis with FDOT.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: If FDOT sat down and said,
wow, in order for us to approve this or to like it, these five things
would have to happen, and three of them McDowell says, yeah, we
agree to, and then FDOT says, well, and then the other two aren't
doable, you don't have enough space, like, you know, there's that kind
of conflict, does this whole project then -- it stops, right? I mean,
because like you said, there's still some approvals.
MS. SCOTT: FDOT is the permitting authority to provide the
driveway access there, so --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: So without that, then it
doesn't get built?
MS. SCOTT: If FDOT says these five things must be done for
safety and for the type of development that they're proposing and for,
February 27, 2024
Page 198
you know, the density that they're proposing, et cetera, they will be
required to do those things in order to be able to receive a permit
from the Florida Department of Transportation.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Sometimes FDOT will say,
in order to make this project acceptable, you would have to do this,
but you don't have enough acreage to do it. You know, there's
a -- I'm just thinking of one example in District 1 that goes way back,
and it was something that I was talking to FDOT about, and it was,
well, we'd like to do A, B, C, D, and E, but D and E actually wasn't
possible, you know, it just -- so is there a possibility of running into
that? Like, when you look at this project, do you think there's some
showstoppers here that FDOT might say, you know --
MS. SCOTT: No, actually, I don't. I look at this as it's
currently zoned commercial, and if they were going to come in with
commercial, they would go through this exact same process with
FDOT --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Right.
MS. SCOTT: -- and FDOT would do that analysis, and we
would -- they would add -- perhaps that's deceleration lanes, perhaps
it's, you know, left-turning movements, whatever. FDOT will look
at all of that analysis.
It may mean that FDOT wants to do something different and
push the traffic further down to make a U-turn. Those will all be
things that they will look at as part of that analysis.
It looks like right now their ingress and egress is lining up with
Tower Road which, if there was ever a possibility for a signal, that's
the best opportunity to have that. It is very close to the other signals,
though. It certainly wouldn't meet the spacing requirements, but it's
not unheard of. But the Florida Department of Transportation's not
going to go in most likely saying, signal here. They're going to say,
we're going to look at all the safety improvements that need to be
February 27, 2024
Page 199
done as part of this.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: And I'll just tell the citizens
that are listening -- and Trinity knows it. She works with FDOT
regularly. FDOT's very aggressive at taking a look at these things.
So they don't rubber stamp anything.
And so -- but what I'm hearing from you, Trinity -- and you
don't have a crystal ball, but you don't anticipate that FDOT's going
to come up with something that's not doable here. As you're looking
at this, there's some tweaks, and FDOT's obviously -- needs to be the
final approval before the permitting. And McDowell might have to
suck up some investment by FDOT saying, hey, you need an extra
lane here or something like that. But, you know, just from -- with
your expertise, you don't see something that looks like a gigantic
showstopper or it's going to come to a screeching halt?
MS. SCOTT: I'm not seeing that. I think that FDOT's going to
look at this in the present-day condition, and they're also going to
look at what they're proposing to do with the modified condition with
their construction project and will make the determinations of what's
necessary.
It may change with the future construction project. But they
will look at the present-day conditions. And since that project is
outside the five-year work program, will, essentially, require
McDowell to do whatever improvements are necessary that FDOT
deems necessary.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Mr. Albertie asked a whole
host of questions. Did somebody write those down and could come
to the podium and could start knocking those out? I wrote a few
down, but I hope you did as well.
Cormac, what have you got?
MR. GIBLIN: Again, for the record, Cormac Giblin.
I think one of the questions was -- again, Commissioner
February 27, 2024
Page 200
McDaniel answered it pretty well --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: He did?
MR. GIBLIN: -- but the Live Local allows you to go to the
highest zoned or built building within one mile. Immediately
adjacent to this parcel is a parcel that is zoned C-4, and that is
allowed to go to 75 feet.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Yeah.
MR. GIBLIN: So under Live Local, they could go to 75 feet by
right.
Another question was, is there somewhere else that they could
find land and we could purchase for affordable housing?
Commissioner Hall knows that we are looking every day. We've
had the application open to developers for now over a year. This is
the first one that has kind of checked all the boxes and dotted all the
I's to get to this point.
We're open for business if anyone is looking. We've -- after
this, we'll have another 18 million or 17 million to go. So we are
looking everywhere. This is one -- we've looked at several
applications thus far. They've all been -- kind of weeded themselves
out due to feasibility. This one has gotten this far.
I think another question was regarding the scoring of the initial
application. The initial application was deemed -- staff was
constrained -- you remember this conversation from the meeting in
January. Staff was constrained from recommending approval of this
for surtax because it was in the Coastal High Hazard Area. We have
a Comprehensive Plan that has many different elements to it. We
have a Housing Element. We have a Coastal Element. They have
sometimes some competing priorities, and staff wasn't in a position to
tell -- or to recommend to the Board which one of those priorities
took precedent. So we -- we said we were constrained from making
a recommendation of approval. Instead, we brought it to the AHAC,
February 27, 2024
Page 201
and that board said that they, of course, were in favor of siding with
the Affordable Housing Element.
We brought it to the Surtax Citizens Advisory Committee. That
board also fell in favor of the Housing, and then, ultimately, you, in
your decision on the 23rd, weighed those two elements and sided
with the Housing Element as well. So that's the reason for the lower
score in the initial -- staff being constrained from making a
recommendation.
I think those were the questions that I wrote down. The
elevation -- the building -- the first floor will have to be BFE plus
one. That area, the new flood maps have just gone into effect, so it
will -- the site will be significantly raised. The stormwater plan will
be required to retain all of their -- any water that falls on that property
will need to be retained on that water [sic] and meet the discharge
rate that's allowed.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I was telling Citizen Rick,
when he was in my office, when he was talking about runoff, and he's
like, wow, you know, those canals fill up really quickly. And I hear
this a lot from citizens. And I think Trinity and Jaime Cook are the
ones that taught me, I know that's what they're supposed to do. So
sometimes we get calls and people are like, wow, the canal's all the
way up to the top, and it's like -- or, you know -- oh, what's the other
word for it. Not necessarily canal, but --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Ditch.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Yeah, well, you say ditch.
Yeah, swale or -- swale was the word I was looking for. But they
get a little bit nervous. And it's like, no, that's why it's there. And
we have the ability to make sure it doesn't overflow and move water
around and things like that. But, okay, thank you.
MR. GIBLIN: A couple more questions. Ms. Williams, I
think -- or I'm sorry, Ms. Jackie had a question about ESP and
February 27, 2024
Page 202
veterans. You'll -- I think you'll be happy to know that your
Planning Commission is already addressing this issue as they move
forward with new essential service personnel. They're currently
looking at adding veterans to that host of --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Could it be added to this
project, or it's --
MR. GIBLIN: We can work that out in the developer
agreement. You know, we'll bring --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I'd really like to continue to
track that with you because, I mean, when you look at, you know, the
income or first responders, I mean, she brings up a good point that
sometimes veterans -- you know, they might meet income level, so
it's not to say there won't be veterans in that building, but to
specifically, you know, say -- just like we do with teachers and things
like that is something that I think we want to continue to consider
aggressively every time. Okay.
Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
MR. GIBLIN: And the last thing was, again, this
recommendation to purchase will only come back to you once they've
completed their Site Development Plan approval, once all the other
agencies have deemed it to be built to code, built it to safe, reliable,
environmentally friendly, however you want to say that their codes
apply. But that's the only time we will bring it back to you for the
actual purchase.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All right. Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I made notes this time just so
when it came my turn to speak I'd be able to remember.
Chris, just to share -- because there's oftentimes priority put on
affordable housing, housing affordability over everything. How
long -- if the world spins well and you get through all of these
permitting agencies, how long before we see a CO? I just want the
February 27, 2024
Page 203
public to hear this.
MR. SHEAR: I'll start -- I'll start with the first major step, and
that's commencing construction. And --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: No, CO. If your world
resolves and everything goes well, when will we have --
MR. SHEAR: It will be about two and a half years.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Plus -- and that's if
everything goes well?
MR. SHEAR: That's with everybody working cooperatively
and everything checking out in our conceptual plan.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I want the community to hear
that, because there's a known need for housing affordability, but this
need cannot be overshadowed by the environmental concerns, by the
concern -- the coastal high hazard issue, the concerns of the
neighborhood. This need cannot overshadow the certain issues that
are revolving around this particular site. This is a constrained site.
I applauded you when I asked -- and I thank my colleagues for
allowing me to -- for allowing us to have this reconsideration. I
know a lot of them feel like it's a fire drill, but you've addressed a lot
of those issues. But one of the things that I brought up at the
beginning was our spending sales tax money on mobile-home-zoned
land that isn't part of the Live Local Act. That's a separate piece of
property that's next door that now -- now you've converted that into a
preserve area for a buffer between your neighbors and yourself.
But I think maybe at some particular process we need to start
looking -- I mean, we have a letter here from our Housing
Department that scored this development didn't make the list, but
they pursued. They went through the -- they went through the
Affordable Housing Committee. They went through the sales tax
committee and are now before us and didn't make -- they didn't make
the cut.
February 27, 2024
Page 204
So I'm not talking that we can just go anywhere and build
anything along the way, but I think from a staffing standpoint, from
our staff's standpoint, a lot of these things weren't brought to me
when -- and I'm looking at you because you're standing there, but I'm
also looking at the folks that are behind you. A lot of these things
weren't brought to me when this project was brought to us last month,
which is why I asked for that reconsideration.
My question to you is -- and/or maybe it has to be answered by
Jaime Cook -- and I do want Mike Bosi to come up front, please, if
you can.
What happens if the economically feasible vaulting system fails?
What --
MR. SHEAR: Fails physically?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Sir?
MR. SHEAR: Fails physically, like breaks?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: What happens if it's not
supporting the water-quality requisite. We can't stop you. Once
you --
MR. SHEAR: We wouldn't get the permit at that point.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I understand that. What
happens if you have a permit, you demonstrate that your system
works, and then it chooses to not work for some unknown reason?
How do we stop you from discharging once you're there?
MS. COOK: That becomes a code issue both with Collier
County and with the State of Florida at that point.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. That doesn't answer
my question. How -- the facility is built.
MS. COOK: Correct. But at that point, if it were to
fail -- typically when a project is using vaulting, we recommend
additional maintenance measures to ensure that it is working
properly, but if it were to fail, it becomes a code enforcement issue
February 27, 2024
Page 205
both with Collier County and with the State of Florida at that point.
MR. SHEAR: And just to expand on the ramifications if that
were to happen -- and this is why we're not looking at doing any
shoddy work, because we have an obligation, a guarantee that if that
were to happen, we're in default under our various covenants with our
financial partners, and there are significant punitive measures in place
if we default within those partnership agreements and loan
documents, so there's a lot of hooks in us.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And permitting. I'm aware.
I'm all aware about the improper discharge. If not
quality -- sufficient quality of water, you're in danger of very, very
severe fines with the EPA and the DEP.
Mr. Bosi? And I can't remember right off the top of my head,
how big -- how big a piece of property is this site-wise?
MR. BOSI: I believe the --
MR. GIBLIN: Seven and a half acres.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: About seven and a half acres.
And it's zoned C-3 right now?
MR. BOSI: The majority.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: The entire site is seven and a
half acres. Two and a half or so is the mobile.
MR. SHEAR: One point seven mobile home.
MR. BOSI: One point seven is the mobile home.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. So how many square
feet of commercial could be constructed on this under the current
underlying property rights?
MR. BOSI: Well, I mean, if they were to do a two-story office
building, they could probably get 120,000 square feet.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay.
MR. BOSI: But I'm not a site designer.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I understand that. And you
February 27, 2024
Page 206
weren't planning on this. You and I didn't talk about this yesterday
when we were discussing this. But one of the things that I'd like to
see as we're going through this process is a comparison with the
underlying land use and the impact with regard to traffic and ingress
and egress. That then becomes a collector. It's a different type of
traffic drawer than this particular development, which will throw
300 -- 260 cars out in the morning and 260 cars back at night.
So if you could -- because there's more -- there's more to this as
we go forward. But if you could, I'd like to know what the
underlying property -- on any of the developments that come
forward, I'd like to know what those underlying impacts are just as a
comparison.
MR. BOSI: Understood.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Finished?
I want to take just a second and clear up Rick's question and the
question about staff scoring. This came to us at the AHAC, and staff
came up with some rules, some criteria for projects to meet the surtax
money, and because they came up with those rules, they didn't have
the ability to determine if someone had the ability or the wherewithal
to mitigate those things. They just strictly had their rules, and
because of that, the score came back at 62.
Once I explained to the AHAC that staff had to stick to the rules
that they had, then they -- now that we can consider those rules, we
can consider if the developer has the ability and the will and the
know-how to mitigate those circumstances that caused the score to be
low, and we determined that they had already done it on one project
and it was not going to be an issue to do it on the next. That's why
the scoring issue was low. So I hope that clears it up.
And I think we have a project and a developer who's taking all
of the risk. They've got to meet all of these hoops. They've got to
get everything done, and it's on them to do it. And if they don't, then
February 27, 2024
Page 207
we're out of the woods on this. But for government to get out of the
way and to allow affordable housing -- the only deal that we've had to
come forth with this surtax money, and we're scrutinizing it, and I
feel like we're in the way on it.
And Commissioner Kowal has a comment, and then
Commissioner LoCastro, and then we're going to take a court reporter
break.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you, Chairman.
I just noticed in some of the comments, I just -- I don't know if
Mr. Cormac or maybe Chris can clear this up. But I think some
people were confused, and this is just for informational purposes to
the citizens that the Live Local Act is totally separate. It's not part of
our -- I heard somebody make the statement, Live Local Act money,
our Live Local Act money. We don't -- it's the surtax money that
was set aside, the 20 million.
But can you just give them the difference between Live Local,
which is state, the governor signed into law?
MR. GIBLIN: Sure. The Live Local Act is an act passed by
the governor last year that deals primarily with the zoning, the site
development regulations. There's some funding in it. And an
advantage on this site is that any site that is already zoned
commercial, industry, or mixed-use is automatically entitled to the
highest density approved in the county and the highest height
approved or built within one mile of that site. And so this site, being
C-3, it qualifies for a use of that act.
The thinking behind it is that it's already zoned C-3. There's
already hundreds of commercial uses that can go on that site by right
today, and commercial is a higher traffic generator than residential,
and so it would be essentially a downzoning in the eyes of the state
legislature to allow residential to go on any commercial, industrial, or
mixed-use site.
February 27, 2024
Page 208
Now, the state surtax money is -- workforce housing land
acquisition was a community priority put into that funding, and there
was a pot of $20 million that was collected over the last six years to
be used specifically for workforce housing land acquisition that does
not need to be used only on a project that also exercises Live Local.
That can be any parcel of land in the county.
And as Commissioner Hall alluded to, we've written a set of
guidelines on which properties, how we will review those properties.
We're typically looking for properties that are ready to go.
Shovel-ready properties would score much higher in our evaluation
criteria. This being Live Local makes it, by definition, shovel ready.
So that's the difference between the Live Local Act and the surtax
funding.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you. I just wanted to
make sure the citizens understood that. This is pretty much a
by-right build, and it kind of takes a lot of the responsibility off us
because the governor signed it into law and basically supersedes our
local authority over it.
MR. GIBLIN: That's correct, Commissioner. We're only here
today because they're asking for the $3.7 million to purchase the land.
If they weren't looking for that, they could go to SDP and never
before -- never be before any public hearing.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you, Mr. Cormac.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Well, the first thing I wrote
down here was to explain the scoring -- and Commissioner Hall
really did that expertly -- because I knew it really wasn't apples to
apples. It was an old score and all that, so I appreciate you bringing
that up.
The second thing was commercial could go on there, but
Cormac brought it up before I even asked it, is commercial generates
February 27, 2024
Page 209
more traffic. I'm concerned about the traffic and the ingress and
egress. But, you know, put up a two-story shopping mall there with
another Skillets and a Jersey Mike's and whatever, and see what that
looks like.
And I can tell you -- and all the commissioners know this but, I
mean, I do drive by that area every day. We've got a lot of empty
commercial sitting right now. The big outlet mall that's sitting
empty. Stein Mart went out of business. There's quite a few other
strip malls that have, you know, empty commercial.
So, you know, trying to find cohesiveness and balance in
between housing, regardless of what it looks like, and commercial is
what we find in that area. It's not hurting for more commercial right
now. It doesn't mean we can't use quality restaurant, and there's
some chatter going on that down the road and around the corner there
might be some big things coming and whatnot. But it's not like
we're screaming for another strip mall right there.
And then, like you said, Cormac, you know, you put that there,
and now you've got even worse traffic problems.
You know, Commissioner Hall's starting to coin a phrase that
"we're standing in the way." I like that. I don't want to stand in the
way of this. There's a couple of things that are of concern, but
FDOT is going to flush a lot of those out. We're going to
aggressively work with them, just like Trinity Scott said. So it's not
like this is a rubber stamp. They're coming to us for the money right
now. There's still a few unanswered questions. And also it doesn't
mean that citizens can't continue to have a voice and help us refine
this.
But I would really hate for us to turn our backs on this and not
move forward. So I'm a strong approval of it. I don't know that we
need to take a break unless the commissioners, you know, have a
question.
February 27, 2024
Page 210
CHAIRMAN HALL: We'll go to Commissioner McDaniel.
This is his deal. So we'll let you make a motion as you deem
necessary.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah. I mean, I still have
reservations. And I apologize to you if you feel like I'm in the way,
but --
CHAIRMAN HALL: You get to feel however you want.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah, that's true. That's
true.
There's still a lot -- you know, there again, there's still a lot we
have to say about this particular development. You know, we're
not -- we are handcuffed by the Live Local law, but on the same
token, we are not handcuffed by the expenditure of the sales tax
money that we've collected for and on behalf of housing affordability.
And I have reservations -- I have had reservations with this site
because it's constrained. We can address a lot of the things, but I
also know density is the key to success in housing affordability. It's
a Catch 22.
So I have no other comments.
Commissioner Saunders is lit up.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to
make a motion to move forward with this. I'm not sure what the
proper wording is -- along with the funding, and the reason is they
can build this project without our funding; we wouldn't be here
talking to them. The only reason we want to put the funding in is
because it lowers what the rentals are going to be. So we're going to
get, what is it, 30 percent of AMI? There's a whole list of --
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thirty, 50 and 80.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah. They can go in and
build this project, I believe, at 120 percent and 100 percent of AMI
without our funds. That would be a very nice project for them.
February 27, 2024
Page 211
If we put the 3.7 million in to buy the land, we own the land
going forward, and the rents are going to be much, much lower to
accommodate folks that are waiting on us in our restaurants, serving
us, cutting our grass, doing all those things.
So I'm going to make a motion to move forward with this.
Now, if there's a problem down the road, we can deal with it. But
they've got a project that they can build right now without us. We
continue with the funding, we have a much better project for the
workforce and other folks in this community, the veterans, folks like
that that are on fixed incomes. So that's why I'm moving forward to
support this.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I'd like to second that motion.
CHAIRMAN HALL: So we have a motion to move forward
with the surtax money approval and a second. All in favor, say aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HALL: Motion passes unanimously.
So we'll take a court reporter break. It's basically 5 of 5. We'll
see you back at 5:15.
(A brief recess was had from 4:53 p.m. to 5:15 p.m.)
MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All right, great. At Commissioner
Saunders' request, he would like to do his commissioner comments
first and then he --
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: After we finish the two
business items.
February 27, 2024
Page 212
CHAIRMAN HALL: Okay. I thought you wanted to do it
now.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: No, I appreciate that.
Item #13A
RESOLUTION 2024-36: APPOINTING TWO COMMISSIONERS
AS REGULAR MEMBERS, THREE COMMISSIONERS AS
ALTERNATE MEMBERS, AND RATIFICATION OF
APPOINTED CITIZEN MEMBER AND ALTERNATE CITIZEN
MEMBER FOR A ONE-YEAR PERIOD ON THE VALUE
ADJUSTMENT BOARD. (ALL DISTRICTS) – MOTION
APPOINTING COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS AND
COMMISSIONER KOWAL TO THE VAB AND RATIFYING
THE APPOINTED XITIZEN MEMBERS AND ALTERNATE
CITIZEN MEMBERS FOR ONE YEAR BY COMMISSIONER
MCDANIEL; SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER LOCASTRO –
ADOPTED
CHAIRMAN HALL: Okay. All right. So we'll do 13A.
MS. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. We're going to jump to Item
13A. This is a recommendation to appoint two commissioners as
regular members, three commissioners as alternate members, and
ratification of appointed citizen member and alternate citizen member
for a one-year period on the Value Adjustment Board.
Mr. Derek Johnssen is here to present.
Sorry, I don't know your title.
MR. JOHNSSEN: Finance director. But today -- Derek
Johnssen here before you as the administrator to the Value
Adjustment Board.
Our ask of you today is for two commissioners to come to the
February 27, 2024
Page 213
VAB meeting -- there will be two meetings over the course of a year,
about an hour each. I'm pretty sure that's all the ask will be, and to
ratify our citizen members. And with that, I can take any questions
that you have.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Who's doing it now?
MR. JOHNSSEN: Commissioners Saunders and Kowal.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I don't have any problem
continuing to do it.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah, I don't either.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All right.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Nominated. All right.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Second.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Moved and seconded for them to stay the
same. All in favor?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
MR. JOHNSSEN: Thank you so much.
MS. PATTERSON: Do you need the ratification of your
citizen also or is that --
MR. JOHNSSEN: Was that included in the motion?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Of course.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Yes.
MS. PATTERSON: Very good.
MR. JOHNSSEN: Thank you.
MS. PATTERSON: You're welcome.
Item #11A
February 27, 2024
Page 214
A REQUEST BY RURAL NEIGHBORHOOD, INC. AND
RENAISSANCE HALL AT OLD COURSE, LLC FOR AN
EXTENSION OF THE FINANCING COMMITMENT DEADLINE
TO MARCH 26, 2024, AND APPROVE THE SECOND
EXTENSION TO FINANCING COMMITMENT DEADLINE IN
THE DEVELOPER AGREEMENT AND LEASE FOR THE
GOLDEN GATE GOLF COURSE HOUSING PROJECT. (ED
FINN, DEPUTY COUNTY MANAGER) (DISTRICT 3) - MOTION
TO APPROVE THE EXTENSION BY COMMISSIONER
SAUNDERS; SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER LOCASTRO –
APPROVED (COMMISSIONER HALL OPPOSED)
That takes us back to Item 11A. This is a recommendation to
consider a request by Rural Neighborhood, Inc., and Renaissance
Hall at Old Course, LLC, for an extension of the financing
commitment deadline to March 26th, 2024, and approve the second
extension to financing commitment deadline in the development
agreement and lease for the Golden Gate Golf Course housing
project.
Mr. Ed Finn, your Deputy County Manager, is here to begin the
conversation or presentation.
MR. FINN: Thank you, Ms. Patterson.
Edward Finn, Deputy County Manager.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Chairman, I know he's
getting ready to say something. This is just an extension.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Yes.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I'll make a motion to
approve that unless there's some --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: No, I'll second it. I didn't
want to go down a rabbit trail with all the other moving parts on this
February 27, 2024
Page 215
project. This is just the extension, so I agree.
I would second that motion unless somebody had a question.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All in favor to extend, say aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All opposed?
Aye.
MR. FINN: Very good. Thank you, sir.
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioner, that brings us to Item 15,
staff and commission general communications.
Item #15A
PUBLIC COMMENTS ON GENERAL TOPICS NOT ON THE
CURRENT OR FUTURE AGENDA BY INDIVIDUALS NOT
ALREADY HEARD DURING PREVIOUS PUBLIC COMMENTS
IN THIS MEETING
Item 15A is public comments on general topics not on the
current or future agenda by individuals not already heard during
previous public comments in this meeting.
MR. MILLER: We do have one this evening, Katie Tardif.
MS. TARDIF: I know you're shocked to hear me, or see me
here, and I'll keep it fast and brief because what I originally intended
to say was just thank you so much for the hard work that you do on
behalf of the people of Collier County that you represent, whether in
your own districts or someone else's district. I'm not going to let that
one go, Mr. McDaniel.
I also -- but I want to add to that. I know you're very
February 27, 2024
Page 216
hard-working, and it's a shame that more people who live here don't
come to these meetings if time permits -- permitted them to be able to
see and hear the kind of work that you do and the kind of -- in this
case, all men that you are, and it's much, much appreciated.
One last thing that I wanted to throw in there, after -- as I sat
through the last piece of discussion about affordable housing, I wish
we could do something crazy and wildly almost flamboyant to draw
more attention to the depressing and sad state of affairs where the
numbers of people who simply just don't make the income needed to
afford housing in the place -- in the county where they work, to see
the work that you're doing to put this forward as much as you can.
And I hope that, perhaps, we could, one day, brainstorm some
funky, fun creative things to draw attention, promote, market. And
one last thought to that, not so funky and fun, but we do know there
are builders in this county who have gotten away with some pretty
shoddy work. And I'm sure that in some ways they're held
accountable, but I'm thinking of one in particular right now who built
the neighborhood that I live in, and it's costing the owners of the
condos in that neighborhood tens of thousands of dollars in
assessments now to do work, some of which would have been needed
anyway, but some of which is absolutely directly related to
workmanship issues that, because the ownership was turned over to
the owners some years ago, now falls entirely on the shoulders of the
owners.
It seems to me there must be a way to hold those kinds of
builders accountable. And I'm going to just leave it at that for now
and end back on a high note: Thank you for all that you do and for
all of the support staff in this room. You guys are awesome. Thank
you. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart, thank you.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: County Manager.
February 27, 2024
Page 217
Item #15C
STAFF AND COMMISSION GENERAL COMMUNICATIONS
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, that brings us to
item -- we have no staff project updates, so that brings us to Item
15C, staff and commission general communications.
We have nothing, but thank you for the good meeting.
County Attorney?
MR. KLATZKOW: I have nothing as well.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And I apologize to the Board. As soon as I finish mine, I'm going to
scoot out because I'm late for an event that I need to be appearing at.
I've got a couple items. The first one, you know, we've all
made a real commitment to veterans in this community, and we
recognize, as today, their service, and we recognize our active
military folks that live here as well, as well as everywhere.
The -- I had a conversation with Dr. Ricciardelli yesterday. The
school board has made the determination that they do not want to put
their vocational educational facility in that vacant building at the
Golden Gate Golf Course. Now, I actually consider that to be an
opportunity for us.
I had met about six months ago with some folks that have
interest in the military museum. They were looking for a home, and
they've all contacted us over the months, and we discussed that
building. And I told them that was not available just yet, but if it
was available, I would let them know.
So what I'd like to get the Board to do or at least consider doing
is I would like staff to reach out to the folks that are involved with the
February 27, 2024
Page 218
military museum and let them know that -- if this board is
willing -- that we have a facility that may very well accomplish the
goal of having a really nice museum in close proximity to our
veterans nursing home and the other facilities that we're building
there for veterans.
And the other thing we can add to this is that would be an
opportunity to have a location for veteran service organizations, for
all of our county veterans organizations that are scattered around the
county. That could be a building for our veterans for their offices
and for a meeting place for veterans. That would require an
allocation of some funds to make that happen.
The museum portion could be funded through tourist
development taxes, because we fund our museums through those.
So I'd like to see if the Board has an appetite, if you will, for
reaching out to the museum folks that have the military museum, do
some calculations, determine how much space is needed, how much
space is available, kind of give us a rough idea of what this type of
renovation would run, and I think we can turn this, along with our
nursing home there, to a really nice campus for our military folks and
our veterans in this community. So that's the ask this evening.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Is that a county asset?
MS. PATTERSON: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Why did the school change
their mind? I'm just curious. I'm sorry.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, you know, the real
answer is that they want to be further north because they want to
draw folks from -- kids from Bonita Springs, which, quite frankly, I
don't think is the mission of our Collier County School District, but
that's the reality of it.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: There's a small piece of land
between our land and that building. Is the easement worked out to
February 27, 2024
Page 219
get to and through yet?
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We have -- I'm not sure what
the easement would be. I know we have full access to 200 parking
spaces associated with that. I know the county now owns those
tennis courts near the building, so I don't think there's any access
issues there, any easement problems, but that's something that real
property can let us know.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Go through in the exploration
process, sure.
And the only other proviso -- and, I mean, it's a building that's
there. There is a lot of conversion from commercial to residential,
so that's something that maybe could be -- I know we're
doing -- we've already allowed for that developer to buy that hotel
and convert it to housing-affordable units as well. So in the event
the museum doesn't play out, that's a building that we actually
already own and maybe could be looked at for housing.
CHAIRMAN HALL: That would be my thoughts. Instead of
just automatically jumping in on a museum, it would be -- that would
be nice. The need is greater for housing.
And just off the bat, I'm not opposed to the museum, but I would
like to take a look and see what it would take as far as a developer to
come in and spend their money and not ours to convert it into
housing.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. So then,
Mr. Chairman, it sounds like if we -- we would be directing staff to
take a look at alternative uses for that building which could include a
military museum or workforce housing. I don't think it's going to be
a structure that would accommodate that, just the way it's built.
CHAIRMAN HALL: I'm not familiar with it.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: It's really kind of a
wide-open building, or it's two stories -- it's two stories on both ends
February 27, 2024
Page 220
of it, but it's kind of open in the center.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: It's kind of warehouse-y a
little bit, right?
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: But it's worth taking a look
at it for that purpose, but if it's not usable for that, then I would
suggest we at least consider that military museum there, along with
the other veterans offices. So that sounds like staff has that
direction.
The second thing is I received a letter from a sixth grader, Ria
Pabby -- she doesn't know that I'm talking about her or this
letter -- but it was dealing with the endangered species, one of the
orchids. And I forget the name of the orchid, but it's one of the
orchids that is almost an endangered species but it's not yet listed by
the federal government as endangered. And she wrote an incredibly
thoughtful letter and wanted me to help move along the federal
designation of this orchid to be -- the ghost orchid -- to be a protected
species.
And what I'd like to do, if the Board doesn't have an objection, is
have our staff -- I'll give the letter to our staff and have them look at
that, and perhaps we could draft a letter on her behalf and present it
to her and to her school. Again, this is a letter that is really
impressive, and I'll make sure everybody gets a copy of it.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Please do.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: But I'd like to recognize her
for that and see if we can perhaps move that along.
I know this particular orchid, there's one out at the Corkscrew
Sanctuary, and it's -- it only blooms, like, a couple days out of the
year, and it is a real hot topic for people. It gets a lot of publicity,
so...
And then, thirdly, we had talked about the air purification
systems that were being donated by Carrier. We have a couple
February 27, 2024
Page 221
hundred units that have been delivered to the county, so we're in
possession of those. And staff is going to be working up a plan to
bring back to us on how we can distribute those to not-for-profits and
organizations like the Shelter for Abused Women and report back to
us. So I just wanted to let the Board know that that's something
that's in progress.
And, Mr. Chairman, I'm going to go slip out, and --
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: I just wanted to say, so,
Commissioner Saunders, then you don't need any reminder, but we'll
look for those bullets on the VA nursing home so we're all speaking
from the same sheet of music, and we'll follow your lead on sort of
the main points so that, you know, we're spreading the word equally.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I'm going to check tomorrow
on the status of the $10 million funding that Senator Passidomo and
our local delegation and all of us spoke with folks about a couple
months ago to make sure that that's still moving along. My
understanding, it's in the budget. But things do change in
Tallahassee, so I'll check on that, and I'll report back to everybody.
And I will have a full report to the Board over the next couple weeks
on the status.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Have a good rest of your day.
(Commissioner Saunders left the boardroom for the remainder
of the meeting.)
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yes. I really only have one.
You heard me talking a little bit on the Ekos development with
regard to the GMD and the administrative parking reduction.
There's -- I think we have a hole in our Land Development Code with
the requisites of the parking requirements that are currently within
our Land Development Code. You heard that this developer has a
February 27, 2024
Page 222
17 percent deficit.
And so just a brief explanation. Under the current LDC, a
one-bedroom -- Land Development Code, one-bedroom requires one
parking space and a half, and then a two-bedroom has one parking
space and one other, and a three-bedroom has one parking space and
another. And I would really -- I would like for us to have a hearing
and review those parking requisites to make sure that they're
sufficient. Because I truly believe that it's a hindrance to the
economic circumstances that we have going on not only from the
developers' cost standpoint but also from a -- being prohibitive for the
developments.
We have a lot of these at-market developments that aren't as
heavily managed as they possibly could be, and the administrative
parking reduction that's allowed within our Land Development Code,
if a developer shows up and says that a certain percentage, justifiably,
of the development has -- they're within access to a public transit
route, they can get relief, and I think that needs to be reviewed. So if
it meets with your approval, then I'd like to do that.
CHAIRMAN HALL: I don't see any reason why we can't. So
you're saying you think it's prohibitive? The way it is now is --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It's a detriment the way that it
currently is now.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Totally agree. I think it's on the
developer. I think that ought to be up to them. But, yeah, we can
talk about it.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And that's the case. The
APR allows for a developer to come to our staff after we've approved
a development. We're not necessarily aware that there's a deficit.
They've got a deficit because they don't have enough land to
accommodate the parking. The requisites are there, and all we have
to do is say, well, the people can walk to -- these people are at
February 27, 2024
Page 223
50 percent of AMI or 80 percent of AMI, and then our AMI standards
that we have of 100,000-plus, everybody has a car.
CHAIRMAN HALL: They ultimately have to live with
no -- not enough parking if there's not.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Then we do. And I'll cite an
example of Orange Blossom as a development on the north side of
Oil Well Road that's all at-market, and there's -- they've got a terrible
parking constraint, and it's been going on for quite some time. That's
the reason I'm asking to have a look at it.
CHAIRMAN HALL: I agree. Sure.
Commissioner LoCastro.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Two quick things.
One for Ms. Scott in the back -- and you don't have to come up.
It goes without saying when we were talking about that Ekos project,
the McDowell project, we'll see how it moves forward and,
obviously, we'll work aggressively with FDOT, but mass transit/CAT
being -- and I think there is a stop right there anyway. But it
reminded me, and I told one of the citizens here, there's a bus stop in
front of the JW Marriott, and I remember when I first got elected, the
CEO at the time, Rick, came to me and said, you know, your bus
stops there 30 minutes before actually our staff is dismissed. So our
housekeepers leave the hotel 30 minutes early, the ones that take the
bus, and it was -- and the housekeepers weren't happy about that.
They were, like, oh, I wish the bus was -- and, you know, I said
to him, we control the pickup and the dropoff times. So we made
that immediate switch with your predecessor. That would be a
perfect example there where, you know -- and I know that's way
down the road, you know. We don't even have shovels going in the
ground for two and a half years where we would want to make sure
that that was matched, you know, that we knew we knew what the
February 27, 2024
Page 224
workforce -- you know, the bulk of the people were leaving and
coming back and to help encourage people to not take their vehicles,
or those that don't have vehicles -- a lot of the workforce housing
people there do rely on mass transit. So I mean, I know that's an
obvious thing, but we didn't really talk about it.
And then lastly -- he's not here, so he's probably somewhere
having a cold one, but Mr. Bosi deserves a little bit of credit today. I
mean, that guy had his bulletproof vest on here and was getting, you
know, interrogated and cross-examined one-on-one, and we know
how fun that is.
So I was hoping he would be here, but I think, you know, he
really stood up to the questions. It just shows how -- regardless of
how the vote turns out, really good, healthy discussion. And as I
said, I was throwing some thanks to Mr. French, who I believe is the
one that said to me before Mr. Bosi was hired, he says, oh, you're
going to really like this guy. He's got a lot of depth. He was a
superstar on staff, left for a little bit. And, I mean, not a lot of
people could sit up there off the top of their head and really take a lot
of that. And he always gives us really good feedback the day prior
to this meeting as well in all our offices.
So wherever he is, he's probably laying down somewhere. But
good on him for helping us steer that discussion and understand it and
package it properly. But thank you for that, Mike.
That's all I have. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Kowal.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I'm feeling a little under the
weather, so I'm just going to leave it at that.
COMMISSIONER LoCASTRO: You made it.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I made it to the end.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All right. I have no comments. Good
day today.
February 27, 2024
Page 225
Thanks for the -- thanks for the meeting. And with that, we're
adjourned.
*****
****Commissioner moved McDaniel, seconded by Commissioner
LoCastro, and carried that the following items under the consent and
summary agendas be approved and/or adopted. ****
Item #16A1
FINAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE POTABLE WATER,
IRRIGATION QUALITY WATER, AND SEWER FACILITIES
AND ACCEPT THE CONVEYANCE OF THE POTABLE
WATER, IRRIGATION QUALITY WATER, AND SEWER
FACILITIES FOR SKYSAIL - PHASES 3 AND 5 OF PHASE 1B,
PL20230012348 - A FINAL INSPECTION WAS CONDUCTED BY
STAFF ON NOVEMBER 21, 2023, IN COORDINATION WITH
PUBLIC UTILITIES, FOUND THESE FACILITIES TO BE
SATISFACTORY AND ACCEPTABLE
Item #16A2
RECORDING THE FINAL PLAT OF RIVERGRASS NORTH -
PHASE 1A (APPLICATION NUMBER PL20220007569),
APPROVAL OF THE STANDARD FORM CONSTRUCTION
AND MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT, AND APPROVAL OF
THE PERFORMANCE SECURITY IN THE AMOUNT OF
$8,858,927.35
Item #16A3
February 27, 2024
Page 226
RECORDING THE MINOR FINAL PLAT OF CITY GATE
COMMERCE CENTER, PHASE ONE, REPLAT OF LOTS 7, 8,
AND 9, APPLICATION NUMBER PL20230017041 - LOCATED
IN SECTION 35, TOWNSHIP 49 SOUTH, RANGE 26 EAST,
COLLIER COUNTY, FLORIDA
Item #16A4
THE ISSUANCE OF A SIGN PERMIT WITHIN COLLIER
COUNTY RIGHT-OF-WAY FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE
RELOCATION OF THE OLDE CYPRESS GROUND SIGN AS A
RESULT OF THE INTERSECTION IMPROVEMENTS AT
LOGAN BLVD AND TREE LINE DRIVE IN ACCORDANCE
WITH PERMIT APPLICATION NUMBER PRSG20231044670
Item #16A5
THE COUNTY MANAGER, OR DESIGNEE, TO RELEASE THE
UTILITIES PERFORMANCE SECURITY (UPS) IN THE
AMOUNT OF $33,559.05 TO THE PROJECT ENGINEER OR
DEVELOPER’S DESIGNATED AGENT FOR TREE FARM
APARTMENTS, PL20220004818
Item #16A6
THE COUNTY MANAGER, OR DESIGNEE, TO RELEASE THE
UTILITIES PERFORMANCE SECURITY (UPS) IN THE
AMOUNT OF $11,196 TO THE PROJECT ENGINEER OR
DEVELOPER’S DESIGNATED AGENT FOR CHRIST THE KING
CHURCH OFFSITE WATERMAIN, PL20220002981
February 27, 2024
Page 227
Item #16A7
FINAL ACCEPTANCE AND ACCEPT THE CONVEYANCE OF
THE POTABLE WATER AND SEWER UTILITY FACILITIES
FOR GROVES AT ORANGE BLOSSOM PHASE 2A-2,
PL20230018322 - A FINAL INSPECTION WAS CONDUCTED BY
DEVELOPMENT REVIEW STAFF ON JANUARY 3, 2024, IN
COORDINATION WITH PUBLIC UTILITIES, AND THESE
FACILITIES ARE SATISFACTORY AND ACCEPTABLE
Item #16B1
THE AWARD OF INVITATION TO BID (“ITB”) NO. 23-8150,
“BIKE LANES ALONG 111TH AVE. N. EAST OF BLUEBILL
AVE. BRIDGE TO 7TH ST. N. (LAP),” TO THOMAS MARINE
CONSTRUCTION, INC., IN THE AMOUNT OF $1,771,602.07,
APPROVE OWNER'S ALLOWANCE OF $100,000, AUTHORIZE
THE CHAIRMAN TO SIGN THE ATTACHED CONSTRUCTION
SERVICES AGREEMENT, AND AUTHORIZE THE
NECESSARY BUDGET AMENDMENTS. (COMPANION ITEM
TO 16B2)
Item #16B2
RESOLUTION 2024-29: THE CHAIRMAN TO SIGN A
LOCALLY FUNDED AGREEMENT (LFA) WITH THE FLORIDA
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION (FDOT) TO PROVIDE
A LUMP SUM DEPOSIT OF $176,576.95 TO SUPPORT THE
CONSTRUCTION ENGINEERING INSPECTION (CEI) OF
BICYCLE LANES ON 111TH AVE NORTH FROM THE FOOT
February 27, 2024
Page 228
OF THE BLUEBILL BRIDGE TO 7TH AVE NORTH, AND
AUTHORIZE THE NECESSARY BUDGET AMENDMENT, FPN
441846-1-58-01. (PROJECT 33620, FUND 3081) (COMPANION
ITEM TO 16B1)
Item #16B3
RESOLUTION 2024-30: THE CHAIRMAN TO SIGN A
LOCALLY FUNDED AGREEMENT (LFA) WITH THE FLORIDA
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION (FDOT) TO PROVIDE
A LUMP SUM DEPOSIT OF $192,192.67 TO SUPPORT THE
CONSTRUCTION ENGINEERING INSPECTION (CEI) OF
SIDEWALK ON CARSON RD. FROM WESTCLOX ST. TO
CARSON LAKES CIRCLE, AND AUTHORIZE THE
NECESSARY BUDGET AMENDMENT, FPN 441480-2-62-01.
(PROJECT 33622, FUND 3081) (COMPANION ITEM TO 16B4)
Item #16B4
THE AWARD OF INVITATION TO BID (“ITB”) NO. 23-8155
“EDEN PARK ELEMENTARY SIDEWALKS (LAP)” TO
MARQUEE DEVELOPMENT, INC., IN THE AMOUNT OF
$1,314,943.50, APPROVE OWNER’S ALLOWANCE OF $100,000,
AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO SIGN THE ATTACHED
CONSTRUCTION SERVICES AGREEMENT, AND AUTHORIZE
THE NECESSARY BUDGET AMENDMENT. (COMPANION
ITEM TO 16B3)
Item #16B5 – (Continued from the February 13, 2024, BCC Meeting)
February 27, 2024
Page 229
TO AWARD REQUEST FOR PROFESSIONAL SERVICES
(“RPS”) NO. 22-8015, “PROFESSIONAL SERVICES FOR
NEARSHORE BIOLOGICAL MONITORING,” TO CSA OCEAN
SCIENCES INC., AND AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO SIGN
THE ATTACHED AGREEMENT
Item #16B6
AUTHORIZE EXPENDITURES FOR THE SINGLE-SOURCE
PURCHASE, IN AN AMOUNT NOT TO EXCEED $228,000, TO
OBTAIN WETLAND MITIGATION AND PANTHER HABITAT
UNITS CREDITS FROM PANTHER ISLAND MITIGATION
BANK EXPANSION, NECESSARY FOR PERMITTING
REQUIREMENTS FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE 16TH
STREET NE BRIDGE PROJECT (#60212)
Item #16B7
AN INTERLOCAL AGREEMENT WITH THE CITY OF NAPLES
FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A PARTNERSHIP
STORMWATER AND WATER UTILITY PROJECT WITHIN THE
BIG CYPRESS GOLF AND COUNTRY CLUB ESTATES
RESIDENTIAL COMMUNITY- THIS ITEM IS CONSISTENT
WITH THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND ASSET MANAGEMENT
ELEMENT OF COLLIER COUNTY’S STRATEGIC PLAN BY
PREPARING FOR THE IMPACTS OF NATURAL DISASTERS
ON OUR CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND NATURAL
RESOURCES
Item #16B8
February 27, 2024
Page 230
AN AGREEMENT FOR THE PURCHASE OF A POND SITE
(PARCELS 278POND AND 279POND) REQUIRED FOR THE
WILSON BOULEVARD (GOLDEN GATE BOULEVARD TO
IMMOKALEE ROAD) PROJECT (PROJECT NO. 60229).
ESTIMATED FISCAL IMPACT: $602,000
Item #16B9
RESOLUTION 2024-31: A JOINT PARTICIPATION
AGREEMENT (JPA) 445296 BETWEEN THE STATE OF
FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION (FDOT) AND
COLLIER COUNTY IN THE AMOUNT OF $390,000 FOR THE
PINE RIDGE INTERCHANGE LANDSCAPE AND IRRIGATION
RELOCATION PROJECT, AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO
SIGN A RESOLUTION, AND AUTHORIZE THE NECESSARY
BUDGET AMENDMENTS
Item #16B10
AWARD REQUEST FOR PROFESSIONAL SERVICES (“RPS”)
NO. 23-8082, “CEI SERVICES FOR VANDERBILT BEACH
ROAD FROM EAST OF US-41 TO EAST OF GOODLETTE
FRANK ROAD (VANDERBILT BEACH ROAD 6 LANE
WIDENING),” TO JOHNSON ENGINEERING, INC., FOR A
TOTAL NOT TO EXCEED AMOUNT OF $1,775,122.40, AND
AUTHORIZE THE CHAIR TO SIGN THE ATTACHED
AGREEMENT (PROJECT #60199)
Item #16B11
February 27, 2024
Page 231
WORK ORDER WITH APTIM ENVIRONMENTAL &
INFRASTRUCTURE, INC., TO PROVIDE PROFESSIONAL
ENGINEERING SERVICES FOR 2025-2026 LOCAL
GOVERNMENT FUNDING REQUEST UNDER CONTRACT NO.
18-7432-CZ FOR TIME AND MATERIAL NOT TO EXCEED
$27,010.00, AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO EXECUTE THE
WORK ORDER, AND MAKE A FINDING THAT THIS ITEM
PROMOTES TOURISM. (FUND 195, PROJECT NO. 90065)
Item #16C1
AWARD THE INVITATION TO BID (“ITB”) NO. 23-8168,
“LATEX PAINT COLLECTION AND RECYCLING” TO
ENVIROSERVE, INC., AND AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO
SIGN THE ATTACHED SERVICES AGREEMENT - TO
CONTINUE TO SAFELY AND COMPLIANTLY DISPOSE OF
LATEX PAINT COLLECTED AT THE COUNTY’S HAZARDOUS
MATERIALS COLLECTION CENTER AND RECYCLING DROP-
OFF CENTERS
Item #16C2
CHANGE ORDER NO. 1, FOR WORK ASSOCIATED WITH
WORK DIRECTIVES NOS. 1, 5, AND 7 AT A TOTAL COST OF
$880 UTILIZING THE OWNER’S ALLOWANCE AND ADDING
A TOTAL OF 153 DAYS TO CONSTRUCTION AGREEMENT
NO. 22-7992R, WITH HASKINS INC., FOR THE PALM RIVER
AREAS 1 AND 2 PUBLIC UTILITIES RENEWAL PROJECT AND
AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO SIGN THE ATTACHED
CHANGE ORDER NO.1. (PROJECT NO. 70257 AND #60234.1)
February 27, 2024
Page 232
Item #16D1
TERMINATE FOR CAUSE REVENUE GENERATING
AGREEMENT NO. 21-7854 FOR “VENDING MACHINE
SERVICES,” WITH REFRESHING FLORIDA LLC
Item #16D2
ACCEPT AND APPROPRIATE THREE (3) RESTRICTED
DONATIONS FROM THE FRIENDS OF THE LIBRARY OF
COLLIER COUNTY, INC., TO THE COLLIER COUNTY PUBLIC
LIBRARY, TOTALING $47,770.04 TO PROVIDE FUNDING FOR
VARIOUS LIBRARY PROGRAMS AND PROJECTS, AND TO
AUTHORIZE THE NECESSARY BUDGET AMENDMENTS
Item #16D3
ACCEPT AND APPROPRIATE RESTRICTED DONATIONS
FROM VARIOUS DONORS IN THE AMOUNT OF $37,695.50
FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE COLLIER COUNTY PUBLIC
LIBRARY AND TO AUTHORIZE THE NECESSARY BUDGET
AMENDMENTS
Item #16D4
AN INCOME DISTRIBUTION FROM THE HARVEY M.
SHREVE JR. IRREVOCABLE TRUST ACCOUNT IN THE
AMOUNT OF $305,996.85 TO THE COLLIER COUNTY PUBLIC
LIBRARY, TO AUTHORIZE THE COUNTY MANAGER, OR HIS
DESIGNEE, TO COMPLETE ANY REQUIRED FORMS, AND TO
February 27, 2024
Page 233
APPROVE ANY NECESSARY BUDGET AMENDMENTS
Item #16D5
CHAIRMAN TO EXECUTE A MEMORANDUM OF
UNDERSTANDING WITH THE DR. PIPER CENTER FOR
SOCIAL SERVICES, INC., TO PROVIDE VOLUNTEER
SERVICES FOR THE PARKS AND RECREATION CHILDCARE
PROGRAMS FOR A THREE-YEAR TERM
Item #16E1
1) APPROVE THE SALE AND DISPOSAL OF SURPLUS
ASSETS PER RESOLUTION NO. 2013-095 VIA PUBLIC
AUCTION ON APRIL 19, 2024; 2) ACCOMMODATE REQUESTS
FOR DONATIONS RECEIVED FROM OTHER GOVERNMENT
ENTITIES OR LEGITIMATE FLORIDA NON-PROFIT 501(C)(3)
ORGANIZATIONS PRIOR TO THE AUCTION; AND 3)
AUTHORIZE THE PROCUREMENT DIRECTOR, AS DESIGNEE
FOR THE COUNTY MANAGER, TO SIGN FOR THE
TRANSFER OF VEHICLE TITLES AS A RESULT OF THE
PUBLIC AUCTION
Item #16F1- (Continued from The February 13, 2024, BCC Meeting)
AWARD INVITATION TO NEGOTIATE (“ITN”) 23-8177 -
“GASOLINE AND DIESEL FUEL MULTI-AGENCY
COOPERATIVE PURCHASE” TO PALMDALE OIL COMPANY,
LLC, AND AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO SIGN THE
ATTACHED AGREEMENT
February 27, 2024
Page 234
Item #16F2
RENEW A CERTIFICATE OF PUBLIC CONVENIENCE AND
NECESSITY FOR A CLASS 2 ALS NON-EMERGENCY INTER-
FACILITY AMBULANCE TRANSPORTS TO JUST LIKE
FAMILY CONCIERGE MEDICAL TRANSPORT SERVICES
(D.B.A. BREWSTER AMBULANCE SERVICE) TO ALLOW
POST-HOSPITAL INTER-FACILITY MEDICAL AMBULANCE
TRANSFER SERVICES
Item #16F3
RENEW THE NORTH COLLIER FIRE CONTROL AND RESCUE
DISTRICT’S CERTIFICATE OF PUBLIC CONVENIENCE AND
NECESSITY FOR ADVANCED LIFE SUPPORT NON-
TRANSPORT SERVICES FOR ONE YEAR AND AUTHORIZE
THE CHAIRMAN TO EXECUTE THE PERMIT AND
CERTIFICATE
Item #16F4
CHANGE ORDER NO. 5 FOR A 30-DAY TIME EXTENSION
UNDER COLLIER COUNTY JAIL LAUNDRY RENOVATION
AGREEMENT NO. 22-7959R WITH ONESOURCE
CONSTRUCTION COMPANY & BUILDERS, INC. (PROJECT
NO. 50185)
Item #16F5
RESOLUTION 2024-32: A RESOLUTION APPROVING
AMENDMENTS (APPROPRIATING GRANTS, DONATIONS,
February 27, 2024
Page 235
CONTRIBUTIONS, OR INSURANCE PROCEEDS) TO THE
FISCAL YEAR 2023-24 ADOPTED BUDGET. (THE BUDGET
AMENDMENTS IN THE ATTACHED RESOLUTION HAVE
BEEN REVIEWED AND APPROVED BY THE BOARD OF
COUNTY COMMISSIONERS VIA SEPARATE EXECUTIVE
SUMMARIES.)
Item #16F6
TOURISM DEVELOPMENT TAX PROMOTION FUNDS TO
SUPPORT THE UPCOMING MARCH 2024 SPORTS TOURISM
EVENT, TRILOGY LACROSSE, UP TO $10,000, AND MAKE A
FINDING THAT THESE EXPENDITURES PROMOTE TOURISM
- TO SUPPORT THE HOSTING COST FOR THE TRILOGY
LACROSSE SPORTING EVENT IN MARCH 2024
Item #16F7
AWARD INVITATION TO BID (“ITB”) NO. 23-8138R,
“COLLIER COUNTY COURTHOUSE CABLE
INFRASTRUCTURE REWIRING,” TO CHRIS-TEL COMPANY
OF SOUTHWEST FLORIDA, INC., D/B/A CHRIS-TEL
CONSTRUCTION, IN THE AMOUNT OF $1,769,076.00,
APPROVE OWNER’S ALLOWANCE OF $172,485, AND
AUTHORIZE NECESSARY BUDGET AMENDMENTS AND
THE CHAIRMAN TO SIGN THE ATTACHED CONSTRUCTION
SERVICES AGREEMENT
Item #16F8
February 27, 2024
Page 236
CHANGE ORDERS NO. 3, NO. 4, AND NO. 5 ADDING 106
DAYS TO THE PROJECT SCHEDULE AND $31,786.18 TO
AGREEMENT NO. 22-7960 WITH WAYPOINT CONTRACTING,
INC., FOR THE COLLIER COUNTY EMERGENCY SERVICE
CENTER EAST BAY ENCLOSURE, AND AUTHORIZE THE
CHAIRMAN TO SIGN THE ATTACHED CHANGE ORDERS.
(PROJECT NO. 50390)
Item #16G1
THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, ACTING AS
THE AIRPORT AUTHORITY, AUTHORIZE ITS CHAIRMAN TO
EXECUTE THE ATTACHED COLLIER COUNTY AIRPORT
AUTHORITY STANDARD FORM LEASE AGREEMENT WITH
CAREER AVIATION FLIGHT TRAINING AND AIRCRAFT
RENTAL, HOLDING, LLC, FOR VACANT AERONAUTICAL
USE OFFICE SPACE AT THE MARCO ISLAND EXECUTIVE
AIRPORT
Item #16G2
THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, ACTING AS
THE AIRPORT AUTHORITY, AUTHORIZE ITS CHAIRMAN TO
EXECUTE THE ATTACHED COLLIER COUNTY AIRPORT
AUTHORITY STANDARD FORM LEASE AGREEMENT WITH
CAREER AVIATION FLIGHT TRAINING AND AIRCRAFT
RENTAL, HOLDING, LLC, FOR VACANT AERONAUTICAL
USE OFFICE SPACE AT THE MARCO ISLAND EXECUTIVE
AIRPORT
Item #16I1
February 27, 2024
Page 237
MISCELLANEOUS CORRESPONDENCE FEBRUARY 27, 2024
Item #16J1
RECORD IN THE MINUTES OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY
COMMISSIONERS, THE CHECK NUMBER (OR OTHER
PAYMENT METHOD), AMOUNT, PAYEE, AND PURPOSE FOR
WHICH THE REFERENCED DISBURSEMENTS IN THE
AMOUNT OF $31,467,796.81 WERE DRAWN FOR THE
PERIODS BETWEEN FEBRUARY 1, 2024, AND FEBRUARY 14,
2024, PURSUANT TO FLORIDA STATUTE 136.06
Item #16J2
THE BOARD APPROVE AND DETERMINE VALID PUBLIC
PURPOSE FOR INVOICES PAYABLE AND PURCHASING
CARD TRANSACTIONS AS OF FEBRUARY 21, 2024
Item #16J3
THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS PROVIDE
APPROVAL FOR THE STATE OF FLORIDA E911 BOARD/E911
STATE GRANT PROGRAM AND FOR THE CHAIRMAN TO
SIGN THE GRANT AGREEMENT
Item #16K1
RESOLUTION 2024-33: TO REAPPOINT A MEMBER TO THE
CONTRACTORS LICENSING BOARD – REAPPOINTING
February 27, 2024
Page 238
ROBERT MEISTER W/TERM EXPIRING ON FEBRUARY 28,
2027
Item #16K2
RESOLUTION 2024-34: TO APPOINT TWO MEMBERS TO THE
LAND ACQUISITION ADVISORY COMMITTEE –
APPOINTING AUSTIN HOWELL W/TERM EXPIRING ON
FEBRUARY 11, 2027, AND ORIANY BRITO TO FILL A
VACANT SEAT W/TERM EXPIRING ON FEBRUARY 11, 2026
Item #16K3
THE COUNTY ATTORNEY TO FILE A LAWSUIT ON BEHALF
OF THE COLLIER COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY
COMMISSIONERS AGAINST SCOTT COMMERCIAL
CONTRACTING LLC, AND ANY OTHER RESPONSIBLE
PARTIES, FOR $23,949.52 IN DAMAGES CAUSED TO A 16-
INCH POTABLE WATER MAIN NEAR THE INTERSECTION
OF TAMIAMI TRAIL NORTH (U.S. 41), 107TH AVENUE
NORTH, AND CREEKSIDE BOULEVARD
Item #16L1
THE BOARD ACTING AS THE COMMUNITY
REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY BOARD (CRAB) APPROVE AN
AFTER-THE-FACT ELECTRONIC GRANT APPLICATION
SUBMITTAL IN THE AMOUNT OF $1,200,000 TO THE
COLLIER COUNTY COMMUNITY AND HUMAN SERVICES
FY 2024/2025 HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT (HUD)
COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT BLOCK GRANT (CDBG) FOR
February 27, 2024
Page 239
THE FIRST STREET PEDESTRIAN SAFETY IMPROVEMENT
PROJECT WITHIN THE IMMOKALEE COMMUNITY
REDEVELOPMENT AREA
Item #16L2
THE BOARD ACTING IN ITS CAPACITY AS THE
COMMUNITY REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY BOARD (CRAB)
APPROVE AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT INITIATIVE (EDI)
COMMUNITY PROJECT FUNDING (CPF) DIRECT DEPOSIT
SIGN-UP FORM FOR A GRANT AGREEMENT WITH THE U.S.
DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT
(HUD) FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE IMMOKALEE
SIDEWALK PHASE III PROJECT, AND AUTHORIZE THE
CHAIRMAN OF THE BCC AND/OR THE CO-CHAIRMAN OF
THE CRA, AS APPROPRIATE, TO SIGN THE DIRECT DEPOSIT
SIGN-UP FORM
Item #17A – (Continued to the March 26, 2024, BCC Meeting)
ORDINANCE AMENDING THE COLLIER COUNTY LAND
DEVELOPMENT CODE TO CLARIFY THE REGULATIONS
PERTAINING TO MOBILE HOMES LOCATED IN THE
COASTAL HIGH HAZARD AREA, TO REMOVE DUPLICATIVE
FLOODPLAIN PROTECTION REGULATIONS THAT ARE
CODIFIED IN THE COLLIER COUNTY CODE OF LAWS OF
ORDINANCES OR WITH THE FLORIDA BUILDING CODE,
AND TO UPDATE CITATIONS AND CORRECT SCRIVENER'S
ERRORS. [PL20220005067 AND PL20230014143]
Item 17B
February 27, 2024
Page 240
ORDINANCE 2024-05: AMENDING THE COLLIER COUNTY
LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE, TO UPDATE THE PROVISIONS
RELATED TO WIRELESS COMMUNICATION FACILITIES.
[PL20230013966] (SECOND OF TWO HEARINGS)
Item #17C – Moved to Item 9D (Per Agenda Change Sheet)
Item #17D
ORDINANCE 2024-06: A REZONING ORDINANCE AMENDING
ORDINANCE NO. 2001-10, AS AMENDED, THE COLLIER
BOULEVARD MIXED USE COMMERCE CENTER PLANNED
UNIT DEVELOPMENT (MPUD), TO INCREASE THE
MAXIMUM ZONED HEIGHT OF TWO BUILDINGS ON LOT 2
FROM 50 FEET TO 55 FEET NEAR THE SOUTHWEST CORNER
OF COLLIER BOULEVARD (C.R. 951) AND MAGNOLIA POND
DRIVE, IN SECTION 34, TOWNSHIP 49 SOUTH, RANGE 26
EAST, COLLIER COUNTY, FLORIDA. [PL20230010984]
February 27, 2024
There being no further business for the good of the County, the
meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 5:34 p.m.
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX
OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF
SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS CONTROL
CHRIS ALL, CHAIR AN
ATTE S ' E: 'e so'
CRY AL: K. :$,r L, CLERK
/ / i
At1es s, . airman's
N-si.•ak. only
These minutes approved by the Board on -5/4 aY- , as
presented V or as corrected .
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF FORT MYERS
COURT REPORTING BY TERRI L. LEWIS, REGISTERED
PROFESSIONAL COURT REPORTER, FPR-C, AND NOTARY
PUBLIC.
Page 241