Backup Documents 01/27/2009 Item #16I
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BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
MISCELLANEOUS CORRESPONDENCE
January 27, 2009
I. MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS TO FILE FOR RECORD WITH ACTION AS DIRECTED:
A. Minutes:
I) Animal Services Advisorv Board:
Minutes of November 18, 2008.
2) Bayshore/Gateway Triangle Local Redevelopment Advisorv Board:
Minutes of November 4,2008.
3) Collier County Planning Commission:
Minutes of October 22, 2008 wi Productivity Committee;
November 6, 2008 regular session.
4) Contractors Licensing Board:
Minutes of October 15, 2008.
5) Immokalee Enterprise Zone Development Agency:
Agenda of December 17, 2008.
Minutes of November 19, 2008.
6) lmmokalee Local Redevelopment Advisorv Board:
Agenda of December 17, 2008.
Minutes of November 19,2008.
7) Immokalee Master Plan and Visioning Committee:
Agenda of December 17, 2008 joint meeting wi CRA.
Minutes of November 19,2008 joint meeting wi CRA.
8) Parks and Recreation Advisory Board:
Minutes of November 19, 2008.
9) Pelican Bay Services Division Board:
Agenda of October 1,2008; November 5, 2008.
Minutes of October I, 2008; November 5, 2008.
10) Rural Lands Stewardship Area Review Committee:
Minutes of December II, 2008.
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DEe 22 2008
NovembtJlo4'3,o~ly Comm'
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MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY
DOMESTIC ANIMAL SERVICES ADVISORY COMMITTEE
Naples, Florida, November 18, 2008
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Domestic Animal
Services Advisory Committee in and for the County of Collier, having
conducted business herein, met on this date at 6:30 P.M. in REGULAR
SESSION at Domestic Animal Services Resource Training Room, Davis
Blvd., East Naples, Florida with the following members present:
CHAIRMAN: Michele Antonia
VICE CHAIRMAN: Marcia Breithaupt
Dr. Ruth Eisele (excused)
Sergeant David Estes
Tom Kepp, Jr.
Sabina Musci
Jim Rich (excused)
ALSO PRESENT:
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Amanda Townsend, Director ofDAS
Kathlene Drew, DAS Volunteer Coordinator
Nan Gerhardt, DAS Shelter Manager
Hailey Alonso, DAS Administrative Assi~tCorres
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November 18, 2008
I, Call to Order:
Michele Antonia called the meeting to order at 6:31 P.M.
II, Attendance:
Roll call was taken and a quorum established
m. Approval of Agenda:
Sabina Musci moved to approve the Agenda. Second by Marcia Breithaupt.
Carried unanimously, 5-0.
IV. Approval of Minutes: October 21, 2008
Marcia Breithaupt moved to approve the minutes of October 21, 2008, as
presented. Second by Sgt. David Estes. Carried unanimously, 5-0.
V. Old Business
A. Directors Report
Amanda Townsend reported the following:
. Announced Howl-a-Day Jubilee to be held Saturday, November 22 from
12:00 to 5:00 PM at Veterans Community Park. Kathy Drew is Chairman of
the committee
. Last year's event raised $10,000 for the Donation Trust Fund, which is used
for emergency care for animals rehabilitated for adoptions.
. Donation Trust Fund is putting together a booklet featuring the "Trust Fund
Babies
. Forming the Foster Care Program, and use of radiographs used to determine
candidacy for various convalescent procedures.
. Marco Island Sun Times - full page ad promoting shelter animals
B. Departmental Statistics and Reports October, 2008 (Handouts)
Amanda Townsend reviewed the statistical reports for the past month,
pointing out several items to the Board and to the public citizens present:
. Intake was down resulting in all other outcomes being down.
. Calls and Visitor numbers were up.
. 4500 hour donated by Volunteers in fiscal year 2008.
. Intake per capita by quarter, as requested, will be available at the next
meeting.
. Revenues were higher, fees increased and more services shifted to those
who use DAS services the most.
She fielded questions regarding collections options, effects of foreclosures on
animal intakes and new methods of data collection with the Ordinance change
regarding spay & neuter.
VI. New Business:
A. DAS Five Year Plan
Amanda Townsend provided and reviewed copies of the substantive report
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November IS, 2008
(Sections A through G) summing up the strategic plan for DAS under the Public
Services Division. Each Department of the Public Services Division, under the
direction of the County Manager, was to prepare such a plan.
Section A- Executive Summary
Section B- Department Vision, Mission and Values
Section C- Serve the Customer
Section D- Manage Financial Resources
Section E- Run the Business
Section F- Build the Team
Section G- Appendix
1. FY 09 Department Balanced Scorecard
2. DAS Organizational Chart
3. FY 09 Operational Budget Summary
Brief discussion followed regarding the report items, budget and staffing.
VII. Public Comments
Stephen Wright spoke regarding the hours of operations being 9AM to 6PM.
Amanda responded it was not instituted due to staffing limits; but, still being
consideredfor the future.
Mr. Wright also proposed a revised Mission Statement that would insert
"provide adoption services or adoptable pets" and "educating the Public on
responsible pet ownership". Since DAS does both of these things, his premise
was that it should be noted in the Mission Statement.
Nan Gerhardt responded that the Mission Statement is developedfrom State
Statutes and local Codes.
Amanda Townsend added the Mission Statement reflects what is mandated in the
State Statutes. The aim is to be a tightening down on essential services and a focus
on core functions. Adoptions are not a State mandated service.
Ben Rae inquired about where the Domestic Animal donations come from.
Amanda Townsend responded: From the General Public andfromfundraisers
such as Howl-A-Day Jubilee.
Everyone was asked to spread the word that all the County telephone prefixes are
now 252. The 530 exchange is no longer valid.
VIII. Advisory Board Members Comments
Tom Kepp, Jr. asked if Amanda was still the Interim Director ofDAS.
Amanda responded that as of October 1, 2008 she's been the full-time Director.
He approved of the accomplishments and changes made this past year. His goal
for the coming year was to see euthanasia statistics at zero, a strong emphasis on
breeder fees and pet owner responsibility. He thanked the pet-advocate attendees
for their dedication and interest shown by coming to DAS meetings.
Sergeant David Estes stated the budget was a huge concern. The government
rollback will impact future services in all areas as tax revenues decrease.
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November 18, 200S
Sabina Musci requested a shelter tour. Nan will arrange it.
Marcia Breithaupt asked about donation jars or boxes that used to be in pet
stores. IfDAS provided them, she would place them in the stores.
Amanda responded that she will consult with Kathy Drew to locate what is
available.
Michele Antonia inquired about fo llow-up on the Pet Harbor web site issue
addressed at the last meeting.
Kathy Drew responded that it is in the process of being rectified in the
Chameleon data base.
Michele Antonia also noted the changes made at the DAS Shelter in Immokalee,
excellently run by Karen Gomez. She encouraged visits by anyone interested.
She offered her services to help initiate a "Mini Howl-A-Day" type activity for
Immokalee.
Nan Gerhardt mention the Snow Fest in conjunction with the Christmas Around
the World festival held on the 2nd Saturday in December as an opportunity to
perhaps set up a booth for that function.
Kathy Drew will coordinate with Michele.
The next meeting ofthe Domestic Animal Advisory Board is December 16, 2008.
There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was
adjourned by the order of the Chair at 7:34 P.M.
Collier Connty Domestic Animal Services
These minutes appp;wed by the Board/Committee on
as presented V or as amended .
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COMMUNITY REDEVELOPMENT AG e
gy,
4069 BAYSHORE DRIVE StOlTE 1 NAPLES, PL 34112 PHONE 239.643.1115 FAX
BAYSHORE/GATEWAY TRIANGLE COMMUNITY REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY LOCAL ADVISORY
BOARD MINUTES OF THE NOVEMBER 4, 2008 GOALS & OBJECTIVES WORKSHOP FOR FY2009
The 2009 Goals and Objectives Workshop for the Bayshore/Galeway Triangle Community
Redevelopment Agency Advisory Board was called 10 order by Chairman Mr, Lindsey Thomas at 5:00
p,m, at the CRA Office Meeting Room 4069 Bayshore Drive
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Roll Call: Present: Advisory Board Members: Lindsey Thomas, Chuck Gunther, Karen
Beatty, Jill Barry, Bill Neal, Steve Main and Bruce Preble. Excused Absence: Maurice
Gutierrez and Ron Fowle.
CRA Staff Present: David Jackson, Executive Director, Jean Jourdan, Project Manager,
Sue Trone, Operations Analyst and Shirley Garcia, Operations Coordinator.
Welcome and Administrative Comments. Mr. Jackson welcomed the Board and
members of public that were in altendance.
CRA-AB Chairman Welcome and Remarks. Mr. Thomas welcomed the audience and
asked Mr. Jackson if there were any additions to the agenda as proposed. Mr. Jackson
stated that he had a short presentation by Mr. Stuart Kaye of Kaye Homes. Mr. Kaye
would show his proposed residential infill floor plans and elevations, and receive
Advisory Board input. The Board reviewed the plans and was satisfied with the
elevation drawings, Mr. Stuart received comments and input about the floor plan from
several board members about the rear lanai and size of bedrooms Mr. Jackson
summarized the presentation by stating that Mr. Kaye has to complete his financial
proposal to build the lhree homes and bring it to the CRA-AB for review, Mr. Thomas
thanked Mr. Kaye for his efforts to team with the CRA to build workforce housing,
4, Overview of CRA Goals for 2009. Ms Trone gave a verbal overview of the goals,
objectives and strategies and the changes incorporated based on the CRA-AB inputs
during the last two workshops, Board discussion centered on completion dates listed in
some of the objectives, Ms Barry gave an update on the opening of the Botanical
Garden's facililies, and as a result the CRA should adjust the cultural district dales. Ms
Trone agreed. Mr. Gunther asked for the completion date to remove the Linwood
Avenue sewer force main be moved up to 2010,
5. Board Discussion. Many of the items were discussed as to their progress or priority
based on the current economic environment. Mr. Thomas asked the CRA-AB if they felt
that if staff made the changes or modifications desired by the Board, that these goals
could be approved during the following regular meeting, The Board agreed. "'"
6. Chairman's Closing Remarks. Mr. Thomas thanked everyone for their time, effort and
contribution to the goal session. He invited all to stay ~ the regular meeting to follow.
7. Adiournment: Mr. Thomas adjourned the workshop af 5:55 PM.
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arded by Lindsey Thomas, CRA-AB Chairman,
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November 4 2008 eRA-AS Workshop Minutes
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THE BAYSHORE/GATEWAY TRIANGLE REDEVELOPMENT AGEN:~ 6 J l-Az..
COMMUNITY REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY
4069 BAYSHORE DRIVE, NAPLES, FL 34112 PHONE 239.643.1115 FAX 239.775.4456
BAYSHORE/GATEWAY TRIANGLE COMMUNITY REDEVELOPMENT LOCAL ADVISORY BOARD
MINUTES OF THE NOVEMBER 4, 2008 MEETING
The meeting of the Bayshore Galeway Triangle Communily Redevelopmenl Advisory Board was called
to order by Chairman Mr Lindsey Thomas al600 p,m, at the CRA Office Meeling Room 4069 Bayshore
Drive,
1, Roll Call: Present: Advisory Board Members: Lindsey Thomas, Chuck Gunlher, Steve Main,
Karen Beatty, Maurice Gulierrez, Bill Neal, Jill Barry, Bruce Preble and Ron Fowle, Excused
Absence: Ron Fowle,
CRA Slaff Present: David Jackson, Executive Director, Jean Jourdan, Project Manager, Sue
Trone, Operations Analyst and Shirley Garcia, Operations Coordinator,
Countv Staff Present: Marjorie Student-Stirling, Assislant Counly Attorney.
2, Adoption of Aqenda- Chairman Thomas asked if there were any additions or corrections 10 lhe
published agenda. Hearing none he asked for a motion to approve the agenda: Motion Mr,
Preble Second: Ms, Barry, Approved 8-0,
3. Adoplion of Minules- Chairman Thomas asked for a molion to approve the October 7 Regular
Meeling, and October 7,2008 Goals Workshop meeling minutes: Motion: Mr, Main, Second: Mr,
Guierrez, Approved 8-0,
4, Executive Director:
a, Presentation: Mr, Chris Nind. Salvation Armv, Mr Jackson inlroduced Mr. Nind from the
Salvalion Army office on Davis Blvd, Mr, Nind gave a brief overview of the organizations
Christmas toy collection program. He asked for volunteers to fill stockings with children's
toys and leave them at the CRA office for pick up. The Board expressed their
appreciation for the work the Salvation Army performs in the CRA area,
b. Presentation: Collier Counlv Sheriff Office, Mr, Jackson introduced Corporal Sandy
Mendez and Corporal Angela Ison who will present the crime data collecled in the CRA
area since 2005, Corporal Mendez presenled the informalion in a power point
presentation, First she described the East Naples Task Force membership, purpose and
objectives, Then she presented data on Sheriff Office calls for service in each year 2005
through 2008, Each graphic by lype of crime call showed a decrease in assistance calls
each year The most serious category, violent crime, decreased from 18,000 calls in
2005 to 7,000 calls in 2008, The Board and audience gave the Sheriff Deputies a round
of applause for their service on the Community Policing force, Mr. Thomas thanked the
Deputies for their time,
c, Presentation: Mr Rov Wilson. Chairman Haldeman Creek MSTU. Mr. Wilson gave the
CRA-AB an overview of lhe new MSTU, ils challenges and proposed scope of work in
lhe coming years, He related 10 failing seawalls or unprolecled uplands that are silting
into the creek, The MSTU Board's goal is to have over $1M in reserves in 15 years to re-
dredge the creek for storm waler purposes if needed,
d, Proiect Updates-
i. Residential Infill: Mr. Jackson asked the Board if there were any specific
questions from lhe Board since the workshop presenlalion by Mr Kaye, There
were none.
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November 4, 2008 eRA-AS Minutes
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ii. CRA Granl Modifications: Ms Trone slaled thaI the revised and new cL ~all If ~
proposals were approved by the CRA Board and that lhere have been
numerous calls on the programs.
iii. Stormwater Pond Fundina Discussion: Mr. Jackson slaled that the County will
not know lhe exact cost to build Phase II unlillhe design is bid, That data should
be known somelime around March or April 2009, Then the CRA will know the
shortfall.
iv. Brownfields Coalition - Ms, Trone gave an update on lhe Srownfields Coalition
to partner wilh the Collier Airport Authority, Economic Developmenl Council
(EDC), Immokalee CRA, Big Cypress Water Management District and lhe
Southwest Florida Regional Planning Council. A joinl application 10 the
Environmenlal Protection Agency (EPA) would allow the Coalition to secure up
to $1,000,000 in Federal granl dollars to use to conduct Phase I & II
environmental surveys in Collier County.
5. Old Business:
a, CRA Debt Capacitv Review, Mr, Jackson slaled that the CRA Board approved to
advertise an RFP for banks to loan the CRA up 10 $20M for the purchase of property,
and fund infrastructure projecls.
b, Approval of Advisorv Board FY2009 Goals, Mr. Thomas asked for a molion to approve
lhe CRA-AB goals that were discussed at lhe earlier workshop. Motion by Ms, Barry to
approve the FY2009 Goals with the changes noted in lhe workshop, and presenl them
10 the CRA Board. Second: Mr, Preble, Approved 8-0.
6, New Business:
a. 17 Acre Master Developer RFQ Scope of Work, Mr. Jackson ask if lhe Board had any
comments or input to the proposed scope of work 10 advertise for a master developer for
the CRA's 17 acre sileo Mr. Main asked if the staff had an opportunily to visit with some
of the development and planning firms at the FRA Conference. Mr, Jackson slaled that
he did, and Mr. Thomas added thaI there seemed to be an inlerest by several
companies to respond to the RFQ, Molion to approve: Ms, Barry, Second: Mr, Preble.
Approved 8-0,
b. 17 Acre Site Concept Desian and Mini-Trianale Concept Desian. Mr. Jackson asked the
Board to address these two items at the same time as they are related. He explained
that many developers have conceplual site plans drawn to market and showcase their
project The CRA does not have anything to show polential developers or investors,
With a set of conceptual designs lhat are drawn to scale, showing lhe lype of
development, the placement of buildings and location of infraslructure. He stated lhat he
was gathering quoles and would presenl lhem to the CRA-AB for review. The Board
agreed to review lhe proposals.
c, Shadowlawn Residential Stormwater Sludv - Contract Approval. Mr. Jackson presenled
a fixed term work order for Q. Grady Minor & Associates to study the Shadowlawn
residenlial area drainage and determine possible solutions, When the study is complele,
the CRA or Counly can determine if they want to fund the improvement Mr. Main asked
if this work had been completed before or what wasn'l il done before, He explained that
he visited lhe area after Hurricane Fay and the streets were full of water. Mr, Gunther
agreed. Molion by Ms. Beatty to fund the sludy al $54,400, Second: Mr. Gunther,
Approved 8-0,
d. Pine Street & Becca Avenue Intersection Improvements. Mr. Jackson presented a
proposal to purchase a double lot single-family residence that was in foreclosure, If
purchased, the CRA could work with lhe County to solve a problematic intersection and
help improve local drainage. Motion to recommend approval to the CRA Board the
November 4, 2008 eRA-AB Minutes
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purchase of 2515 Becca Avenue for $99,000: Mr. Gunther, Second: Ms, Beatty.
Approved 8-0.
7. Citizen Comments, Mr, Thomas asked if lhere were any commenls from the public in the
audience, There were none.
8. Adiournment: The regular meeting was adjourned at 6:58 pm,
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sey Thomas, CRA-AB Chairman.
November 4, 2008 eRA-AS Minutes
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October 22, 2008
, TRANSCRIPT OF THE AUlR MEETING OF THE
COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION
AND THE PRODUCTIVITY COMMITTEE
Naples, Florida, October 22, 2008
RECEIVED
DEe 2 9 2008
Board of County Commissioners
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Planning Commission, in and !r ~e 10u!,;4. 3
of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 8:30 a.m. in SPECIAL SESSION at
Horseshoe Drive, the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present:
ACTING CHAIRMAN: Donna Reed-Caron
Karen Homiak
Tor KolfIat
Bob Murray
Brad Schiffer
Robert Vigliotti
David 1. Wolfley
Mark Strain (absent)
Paul Midney (absent)
PRODUCTIVITY COMMITTEE: Lawrence Baytos
Gina Downs.
Joseph Swaja
ALSO PRESENT:
Jetfrey Klatzkow, County Attorney
Joseph Schmitt, Community Development & Environmental Services
Randy Cohen, Comprehensive Planning Director
Mike Bosi, Comprehensive Planning Manager
Misc. CoIres:
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October 22, 2008
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Good morning, everybody. Can I have your attention, please. I think
we're on.
Good morning, and welcome to the Special Meeting of the Collier County Planning Commission
and the Productivity Committee for the review of the Annual Update and Inventory Report on Public
Facilities.
If you would rise, we'll do the Pledge of Allegiance. Thank you.
(Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.)
Item #2
ROLL CALL BY THE SECRETARY
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you. I'm going to have the -- Mr. Vigliotti do the roll call for
the Planning Commission, please.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Ms. Homiak?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Here.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Commissioner Kolflat?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Here.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Commissioner Wolfley?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Here.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Commissioner Murray?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Here.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Commissioner Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I'm here.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I'm here.
And Chairwoman Donna Caron?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Here. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Mr. Midney's absent, and so is Commissioner Strain.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you.
Now, the Productivity Committee works in a different manner. They are just here in small groups.
I am assuming, Mr. Baytos, that you have the people here that you need to proceed?
MR. BA YTOS : Yes. Mr. Baytos is here. Gina Downs.
Mr. Swaja is the third member of our group, and I'm sure he'll be slinking in here very soon.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, good.
Then Mr. Bosi, you are up.
MR. BOSI: Thank you, Ms. Caron.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Our go-to guy.
Item #2
REVIEW OF THE ANNUAL UPDATE AND INVENTORY REPORT ON PUBLIC FACILITES,
CATEGORY "A" AND CATEGORY "B"
MR. BOSI: Mike Bosi, with Comprehensive Planning.
We're here again on our annual basis for the review of the Annual Update and Inventory Rcport,
which is, for some of the new members to the advisory boards, it's the preparatory document and procedure
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October 22, 2008
that establishes the work plans, the five-year work plans, that will be part of our capital improvemen1 6 I 1.43
element to our Growth Management Plan, which is sent to the Department of Community Affairs every
year.
Every year we annually update our five years of capital improvements. And basically this is to
maintain a level of concurrency and the concept of concurrency for the county, particularly for the Category
A facilities, which are transportation, drainage, public utilities and parks and recreation.
The way that the process works in -- we'll utilize libraries as an example. Libraries have a level of
service standard of .33 square feet per capita. That level of service standard is compared against the
population numbers that come from the Bureau of Business and Economic Business research from the
University of Florida, based upon the statutes contained within -- from the State of Florida.
That population, multiplied against your level of service standards, is what your capital
improvement program is required to be for that five-year program to maintain concurrency.
One of the handouts that I provided -- one of the handouts that I provided was the comparison of
the BEBR population numbers from 2007 to 2008. And as you can see, there's about an eight percent
reduction; an eight percent reduction from the '07 to '08 numbers.
So basically what that's saying is that the population numbers that we had projected from last year
compared to the population projections that were provided to us this year is about eight, eight-and-a-half
percent reduction.
All indications that the population numbers that will be coming out next year will be another
downward revision to those projection numbers. In fact, this past September was the tirst year in the
42-year history of the tracking for BEBR towards where there was an actual reduction in the number of
electrical hookups from month to month. And this is the first time it has ever happened in this state where
we had a reduction from the previous month, the number of electrical hookups.
So the issues that are surrounding the international and national markets are having a pronounced
effect upon this local market. And because of that, we have a reduction within our projections for our
population numbers.
And what you'll see is within the program contained within the AUIR there's a dramatic reduction
in terms of projects being proposed.
In fact, the projects that we at -- even last year had thought were going to be required in this
five-year period has been pushed out to years six, seven and eight. With the expectation of the downward
revision of the population numbers for next year, we expect those projects to be pushed out further and
further.
One of the things that we've had conversation with as a staff is from 2000 to 2006 the growth rate
that was experienced by this county was tremendous. The divisions, the departments, the transportation
department, public utilities, parks, libraries, EMS, the Sheriffs Department, the Correctional Facilities, we
couldn't get the capital improvements up fast enough to meet the demands that were going on. We could
only try to meet those demands.
In the past 18 months we saw that environment completely change. And based upon that, we want
to establish as a staff that we recognize the changing conditions, and based upon that, we have pushed
projects off. We said these projects are not going to be needed within this five-year period, and we have
them out in the six, seven, eight and nine year.
What we want to establish to the advisory boards and to the Board of County Commissioners is not
only are we aware of this downward trend, but we want to be prepared when the conditions begin to firm
up, when we see the growth trend start to re-emerge, that we will be not only ready to implement the capital
improvements when needed but in the time between now and when those capital improvement projects will
be needed that we identitY inefficiencies and we identitY the most efficient way to provide those services or
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that infrastructure to be able to be the best stewards of the taxpayers' tax contributions.
With that, it really concludes the overview for the AUIR from my perspective. We have on the
agenda Ms. Patterson related to impact fees, which I think has relevance within today's situation. And I
know that Amy would like to make a couple comments in terms of that regard.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Ms. Chair, I have a question.
You mentioned in the BEBR that the electrical hookups, are they the only things that is used is the
electrical hookup? Is that the basis, or are there other bases?
MR. COHEN: For the record, Randy Cohen, Comprehensive Planning Director.
BEBR always starts initially by looking at its projections from the prior year.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Randy, do me a favor, please, is the electrical hookup the only
basis?
MR. COHEN: No, sir, they look at our -- they start with the number of building permits that are
actually pulled during a given year, and then they look at electrical hookups to attempt to verify exactly
what is transpiring with a new governmental entity.
One of the problems with electrical hookups that is transpiring in Florida now is a lot of builders, a
lot of homeowners, a lot of people that have homes for sale keep their electric on to avoid mold. So
sometimes they don't capture exactly when a unit mayor may not be vacant.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay. The reason I asked that question is beyond, in fact, it
touches on that. We have a serious problem of foreclosures and abandonments. And from what I
understand, the numbers are considerable. Do you happen to know whether or not those are factored into
this?
MR. COHEN: I know they've taken a look at foreclosures with respect to their preliminary
estimates for next year. I don't think at this point in time that they're capturing the extent of the foreclosure
rate.
And one of the problems associated with foreclosures -- and we're obviously coming up on the
20 I 0 census -- is how do we capture not only those vacant units, but when they're purchased what type of
vacant units will they become, whether they're permanent population or whether they're seasonal
population. And then also the timing of occupancy.
When the market comes back under normal circumstances, those units are going to be captured and
they're going to be occupied.
The question that does become relevant to you as a group is right now we have a certain ratio of
permanent residents to seasonal residents. Who's actually going to buy? What are going to be the demands
on our capital infrastructure?
And these are difficult times for us to project, because with the 2010 census really beginning, you
know, about this time with the canvassing and asking the questions, we may have some problems with our
base year that transpires in 2010. And how to rectify that based possibly off of a faulty vacancy rate
concerns us tremendously as a staff, and should concern you obviously as a Planning Commission and
productivity committee as well, too.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Should we trust the number that you're giving us based on BEBR?
MR. COHEN: Right now I think the numbers from BEBR may overstate the permanent population
and the seasonal population. Obviously they're charged by Florida statute to provide every governmental
entity with numbers pertaining to population growth. And the standard is medium BEBR population. If you
want to deviate from that, you have to have a professionally accepted methodology that shows why you're
deviating from that.
Next year's preliminary estimates actually show a reduction of population, which is going to be the
first time. And it's going to be very interesting to see how they project that out and whether or not they
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October 22, 2008
recommend local governments go to a low BEBR or some other type of methodology.
This phenomenon is transpiring in a lot of the high growth counties, others that have a lot of
transient population as well in markets that are subject to foreclosure.
So this is our first time in the state that we're seeing this phenomenon, and how we're addressing
this in our local perspective is we're going to take a look at demand numbers based on -- if you recall, when
we went through the seasonal population analysis you asked us to look at the main facilities.
What we're going to do is we're going to go back and take the base numbers that we used for
demand and compare this year's demand to last year's demand. We'll do the same thing for transportation.
That way it will give us an understanding on what the impact is and what the demand actually is with
respect to our public facilities. And if we see a really major downturn in that, we will potentially challenge
the BEBR numbers.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Vigliotti?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Randy, we've been talking about population numbers. This is my
third AUIR. We all keep saying that the BEBR numbers we don't believe are correct, we don't believe are
accurate. And that's the basis of this whole AUIR.
There is a professionally accepted methodology. Now, what do we need to do that? Can we do it
this year, implement it as a county, present it to BEBR so next year we're possibly working on correct
population numbers?
MR. COHEN: Well, I think there's two issues that we have to address here. One is U.S. Census
data, which is from 2000, is the initial starting point that is used. And the further you get out into looking at
population trends from a base year the more inaccuracy you have.
And obviously that's the case here, because when we put into account the factor of what's
transpiring with respect to our population base, that inaccuracy increases exponentially.
This year I think we're working on numbers that are overstated, but I really believe that the year
that we're going to be able to capture what's transpiring is next year.
Fortunately we've pushed projects out of the window so the impact is really not seen in this
five-year period of time. So I think we're in good shape with respect to that.
But we need to really take a close look at how our population is impacted with respect to those
demand numbers when we see them on public facilities.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Okay, let me rephrase the question. The professionally accepted
methodology, can you explain that to me, what BEBR wants from us that will be a professionally accepted
methodology? What do we do to implement it to get it ready for next year? What are the requirements?
MR. COHEN: Well, the first question is going to be this: Are they going to keep us in the medium
BEBR range, even though we've seen a downturn, or are they going to actually say Collier County, your
methodology needs to be changed.
It's a question that we also have with DCA. We would need to provide them, to show them that the
impact on our public facilities has gone down, which is indicative of a reduction in population.
Usually when you do something along those lines, you hire somebody that has a background in
demographics that can actually come on in and professionally analyze not only that trend but other trends as
well, too. And ifit's this body's recommendation to move forward with hiring somebody along those lines,
you could include that in your recommendations to the board.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Okay, but I'd like to know more about it. One person, if we hire
one professional, they could do this program and get ready for next year, or is it more complicated than that,
the expense? Can you give me some more input on that?
MR. COHEN: It's really kind of difficult. The only governmental entity that's successfully
challenged BEBR in the past was Palm Beach County. Palm Beach County had -- they had been given
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medium BEBR numbers, and they realized that they had reached the top of their growth curve and the
growth was slowing down in Palm Beach County and they wanted to use low BEBR medium numbers in
an adjusted seasonal population growth. And they provided documentation after they hired a company that
specialized in professional demography and statistics.
So it can be done. I think it's going to be done more in the upcoming years, based on what we're
seeing in some of the other counties as well too, Lee in particular. It just depends on what comes out of
BEBR and what their recommendations are going to be. So that's kind of where we're at.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Again, we say depends what comes out ofBEBR. So far we don't
believe BEBR is correct, so we're saying that maybe the next change they make will be correct?
I'm suggesting, and I'd like to suggest that we hire that person, follow what Palm Beach County
does and create our own destiny so we know for sure that we're working with correct numbers and we can
tell BEBR what they are if we can get them accepted.
MR. COHEN: And this would probably be the appropriate time to do it for next year, based on
what their preliminary estimates are. For example, the number of foreclosures that are occurring on a
regular basis here, what does that mean in the local economy.
They're foreclosed, we see prices that are way down, we have banks and other lending institutions
that don't want to carry those homes on the books, are they being sold. And are they being bought by
permanent residents or seasonal residents? We don't know. So we have a lot of unknowns in the
marketplace right now.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Well, then I definitely make that recommendation. Nobody
knows our county better than us. We can't rely on the state to understand all the intricacies of our county --
MR. COHEN: I think it would be appropriate --
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: -- I think we could make that recommendation.
MR. COHEN: I think it would be appropriate as a body to make that recommendation at the end of
the presentation of the AUIR. It's not in the recommendations but if you do choose to do so as a body, that
would be in the purview of the CCPe.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: When would you expect to get preliminary figures from BEBR?
MR. COHEN: Well, we received preliminary estimates from BEBR for next year already. And
they showed a 1,500 decline in population for Collier County. That was based obviously off of information
that they had in the prior year.
So what happens is we're working in arrears a little bit here, and that's problematic, just like
anything. And that's why I think it's a good idea to look at it from the perspective of during this upcoming
year what the demand is actually on our public facilities, because what we may be showing is a really rapid
decrease in population in an exodus of residents from our county, just like they're seeing in Lee County.
And we know it's transpiring.
We'll also take a look at emollment counts in schools, which are indicative of people leaving the
area as well.
And we also need to take a look at what transpires during this agricultural season to see what
happens in terms of the residents that come back to the area and what the impact is in the Estates as well as
in the Immokalee area as well. So there's a lot of factors involved.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Good, thanks.
Brad?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Randy, when do we get the 2000 census information? How long
does that take?
MR. COHEN: We were just notified by the U.S. Census last year that they were requesting space
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October 22, 2008
for 120 days, which Mr. Schmitt's operations director is coordinating that with them.
We also have 120 days once we receive information to respond to them. So it's in process right
now.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: My question is, though, they'll come in, they'll take the census.
When do we get that data?
MR. COHEN: We'll probably get some preliminary estimates in 2009.
I do know personally that they did some preliminary mail-outs, because I received one, this year.
So they started their baseline data earlier this year.
They're going to start in 2009 actually doing their door-to-door counts. I don't know if you've seen
anything, but originally they were planning on doing things with computer entry. Now they're actually
going to do door-to-door and do the hand entry. They had some problems and flaws with their system. So
we should start seeing some data in 2009 to verifY certain things and then go from there before they finalize
their data.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: The question is when do we get the hard 2010--
MR. COHEN: It will be late 2010 or early 2011. And it correlates also with the redistricting that we
need to do in 20 I 1.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Good, thanks.
And Mr. Schmitt.
MR. SCHMITT: Can I add -- good morning. Joe Schmitt for the record, Community Development,
Environmental Services Administrator.
I think you need to look also at the population projections, because quite frankly as you look at the
different categories within the AUIR, even if the line were to move down, it's going to have no impact or
very little impact on the AUIR capital program.
The capital programs that you're looking at, money has already been allocated and spent, or those
programs have been executed. Anything that's projected based on an increase in population has actually
been deferred.
So even if you look at utilities or libraries -- maybe the only one that may have an impact on is
EMS -- but if you look at the other categories, even if the line were to shift and move down, it's going to
have no impact on the AUIR. The AUIR is nothing more than a vehicle to project capital requirements to
support growth. Most ofthose capital requirements have already been implemented and you're going to see,
if you go through your program, there arc no capital programs.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Joe, I agree] 00 percent. The only thing is we don't actually know
if the population numbers are right. This is my third AUIR and we just keep repeating, well, we have to
trust BEBR, we don't if they're correct. Our population is changing now, drastic changes are happening.
MR. SCHMITT: Bob, I understand. But again, we can chase that squirrel around the tree and really
get nowhere, because the information you're looking for may certainly provide a more valid snapshot of
where we are, but the money to go after that, the results are going to provide nothing in regards to the AUIR
other than say yeah, now instead of deferring the utility plant to 2015, it may be 2020. And we've already--
we're already looking at those kind of deferrals.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I agree, and it's not going to change anything this year. But
number one, I don't know the cost. Randy, maybe you could fill me in on the cost so we could find out
before it goes to the board.
But I'd like to know from our own evaluation that we control what the numbers are next year and
going forward with that as a baseline. I know it's not going to change anything, I agree, but I'd like to have
correct numbers.
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-October 22, 2008
MR. SCHMITT: I understand. Understand that the BEBR is really looking at in a rearview mirror.
That's what they're doing. They're projecting numbers based on what took place. And often it's at least a
year in arrears, it's a year behind. And the BEBR numbers we've dealt with the last couple of three years
were based on the phenomenal growth that we had in Florida in 2003, 2004, 2005. .
And they didn't project the downturn, the economic downturn. They didn't project the -- they
should have, but frankly, they didn't over -- they didn't project the over-building that was taking place in
Florida. And as a result they continued to forecast 10,000 -- what was it, 10,000 people a month moving to
Florida, that's what they were projecting.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I agree. That's why I think we need to do the study. I don't know
how expensive it's going to be. But I think if we do the study we could start with a baseline of what we
know is correct and work forward.
MR. SCHMITT: Well, we can certainly bring that position to the board. It's whether they're going
to fund it. And I know that's not going to be a cheap -- you're going to probably spend 30 to $40,000 to do
that type of analysis, maybe more, to do that type of population analysis.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Again, I think it's probably wise if we move through the AUIR and
then discuss that at the end.
Mr. Bosi did have a comment, though, before we move on to anything else --
MR. BOSI: Just one thing. Because the schedule for the AUIR was established last February and
the Planning Commission has adopted a procedure towards where before things are taken from the Planning
Commission and presented to the Board of County Commissioners, there's a revisiting the schedule, we
have the November 3rd meeting with the BCC, so that won't be provided for in this AUIR. We'll do that in
next year's AUIR.
But I just wanted to -- when we make our recommendations upon each of the components of the
AUIR, I personally just ask that we are clear and explicit so I can make sure that I am voicing what the
recommendations of this body and the Productivity Committee were accurately to the Board of County
Commissioners on the 3rd. And that's just a request for myself.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Yeah, thanks, Mike, we'll make sure we do that.
Randy?
MR. COHEN: Let me add one other thing, too, with respect to the capital improvements element.
This year it's going to track very closely behind this AUIR. The reason being is there's a statutory
deadline of December the 1st. And next year, hopefully what we're going to be able to do is to streamline
the project management plan for the AUIR, have it heard by this body a little sooner. And that way both
documents can be adopted in a timely fashion.
The state recognizes that their December I st date is very problematic. And I know different
counties are lobbying to have it pushed out a couple of months for that reason.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: '1bank you.
Amy? Finally, it's your turn.
MS. PATTERSON: Good morning. Amy Patterson, for the record. I'm the Impact Fee and
Economic Development Manager for Collier County.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Amy, can you -- with these mics, you have to get right on top of it.
MS. PATTERSON: Sorry about that.
I can hold my comments. As we go through the individual facilities it may be more appropriate to
answer your questions that apply as we go through. I'll be here all day. So if you'd like to handle it that way,
unless anybody has just general questions that I could answer now?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Baytos?
MR. BA YTOS: Question, Amy. The projections that are in the book, are those based on the current
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October 22, 2008
staff proposal for indexing, or does that not assume any indexing?
MS. PATTERSON: The revenue projections don't assume the current indexing that will be brought
to the Board of County Commissioners at some point in the future.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Anyone else before we move on?
(No response.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Amy, then you're here to answer questions as we go through. Thank
you, we appreciate you being here.
And that means that first up is the Isle of Capri's Chief Rodriguez. Good morning.
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: Good morning. Chief Rodriguez from Isles of Capri Fire Rescue. And I'm
here to answer any questions that you all might have pertaining to my AUIR.
Basically we're not asking for anything. We're on status quo right now with the WCI Development
on Mainsail Drive for the second station there. That is uncertain whether they're going to donate the land or
not at this time.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Any questions of the Chief?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Well, I mean, it's not the AUIR, but Chief; you're going to be
looking at a site that's deep into the Hammock Bay as opposed to close to State Road 95 I?
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: It would be the site right where the sale center is at on 951 and Mainsail,
which is the Hammock Bay Development.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: We have a drawing that shows it way in and way out. But that's
not what you're looking, correct?
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: No, that is the old site there, which was back toward the airport. Now
they're talking about they keep going back and forth, because they also own land by the airport. So we're
willing to take whichever parcel of land they're willing to donate. So we're looking at those two.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But I think it's better to get up on 951.
And second is you will be screaming as you run through their neighborhoods.
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: Yes, that is correct.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: That doesn't make sense to them.
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: Yes, sir.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Question. Are the five buildings, are those towers all built?
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: No, ma'am, there's --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: I didn't think so.
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: There are currently three occupied high-rises on Hammock Bay. Two are
on hold and we don't know when the other two will be constructed.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: So your impact fees, are those -- some of those from those towers?
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: Yes, ma'am.
MR. BA YTOS: Are those towers generally occupied or see-through?
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: There's one tower that has -- I'd say over 50 percent of the tower is
occupied by renters. The other two towers, very few residents living in those towers now. It's more
seasonal.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: How does the whole WCI bankruptcy affect the donation of that
land? Or don't you know? Is that why you're saying you don't know?
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: That's why we're unsure at this time. They have had a lot of changes there
with management. So every time we speak to somebody there, two or three weeks later it's somebody new,
so it's--
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: I understand.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Just I think, Donna, one of the problems is the best site for the
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October 22, 2008
station is where their sales center is. Unfortunately with the other two towers not built, they still need a sales
center. So I think the biggest interruption is that if they would have built the other towers out they could
have taken down the sales center.
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: They could have taken down the sales center, yes.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Because that is the best site.
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: Uh-huh.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Gina?
MS. DOWNS: Is your required inventory number based on the new requirement, is it 16,400
population? Is it based on that new number?
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: Well, we don't strictly go by the population, we go by the ISO rating, which
is the insurance. And that's what we base all our levels of service with, as far as how many stations we
should have, the types of apparatus that we should have for that specific area.
MS. DOWNS: So that's the only measurement you're using is ISO?
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: The ISO, yes.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Any other questions?
(No rcsponse.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: I just had one more, and that's in what it costs you to get office
furniture and outfit a station, as compared to Ochopee. Why is there such a difference in cost?
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: For the equipment, you mcan?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: For office furniture and full live-in facility. You're talking about
$40,000, right?
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: Yes. We're talking about a small substation there when we build a station
there to house one piece of apparatus with no more than two to three personnel at the station there. So we're
not looking at a lot of office equipment, because our main station is on the Isles of Capri's. So that's where
we would have all our computers and everything else.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Right. I guess my question is that both in equipment and vehicle
replacement, as well as office furniture, it cost you all a lot more. And I can understand land costs would
cost you more where you'rc located versus Ochopee. But why is it that it costs you more to buy a truck, a
fire truck, or more to -- for office furniture?
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: We're also looking at putting in a ladder truck there, which would be a lot
morc than a regular engine, where Ochopee would be utilizing a regular Class A engine, about $300,000,
versus 450,000 and up for a ladder truck to facilitate the high-riscs in that area.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Yeah, you certainly would need a ladder truck for sure.
Okay, but what about the office furniture?
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: I don't know how to answer that. They might be asking for a bigger area
compared to ours where we're only going to need one couch, two chairs, one desk. Depending on the size of
the facility that Ochopee is building, compared to the size that wc would be building, it's going to take less
furniture or more furniture.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Because it would seem -- I mean, there's a 10 -- you're
$10,000 higher than they are. And it would seem to me that there ought to be some economies of scale there
that --
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: I'm sure when it comes down to that point -- this is just an estimation. So
I'm sure when it comes down to that point where we know exactly how much land and how big of a
building we're going to be able to build, we will be able to reduce the cost.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you.
Go ahead, Brad.
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16 I 1 t.~er 22, 2008
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: The mitigation grant totally covered the cost ofthe heli-pad?
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: No, sir, that was a 75/25. So we put up the 25 percent for the retention wall
behind the fire station, and that came out of reserves.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And then the other thing is since you do a lot of -- you guys are on
the water more than anybody else, how do you figure out your need for that, just by experience from the
year before? Or what do you --
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: As far as the needs for equipment?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yeah. In other words, there's no real NFPA or ISO rating on
response times or distances.
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: No. Right now we were fortunate enough about a year ago, we had a group
of residents that formed a non-profit, and they actually purchased a boat for us, fully equipped, for us to be
able to provide the level of service that we provide out on the water.
Right next door to the fire station right now we are able to keep the boat at a lift and dock there free
of charge, because the owner of the facility is allowing us to keep the vessel there, because we don't have
sufficient water behind the station because it's so shallow to build a dock there. Hopefully in the far future,
depending on how many storms we get, we might be able to put in a dock out there, but right now we're not
looking at that.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Thank you. I'm done, Donna.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Now, Mike, do you want us to be voting on these things as
we go?
MR. BOSI: Absolutely. Each one individually would have a specific recommendation from each of
the bodies.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Baytos, the Productivity Committee?
MR. BA YTOS: Gina., all in favor of the vote?
MS. DOWNS: Are you making a motion?
MR. BA YTOS: Yes.
MS. DOWNS: Do you want me to make a motion?
MR. BA YTOS: No, that's fine, I'll make the -- I move that we approve the program just proposed
here.
MS. DOWNS: I will second.
MR. BA YTOS: All in favor, aye. Aye.
MS. DOWNS: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And for the Planning Commission, do I have a motion?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I'll make a motion.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Schiffer moves.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I move that we forward the 2008 AUIR for the Capri Fire Control
and Rescue District as shown on the summary.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Second.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All in favor?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Ayc.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Aye.
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Anybody opposed?
(No response.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. You'rc good, Chief, thank you.
CHIEF RODRIGUEZ: Thank you very much.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Next we have Chief McLaughlin.
CHIEF McLAUGHLIN: Good morning. Alan McLaughlin, Chief, Ochopee Fire Control District.
And the AUIR is before you, if you have any questions I can answer.
And Ms. Caron, to answer your question on the facilities for Chief Rodriguez, as you know, the
board members that have been here for awhile, I was his Assistant Chief for five years and we were
intimately involved with those projects.
The facility at Isle of Capri is an administrative facility, offices. The facility that we're looking at in
Ochopee is merely a satellite station without those administrative offices. There's why you have your
$10,000 difference.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you.
Any questions?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: The location on 1-75, that station, when do you plan to bring that
into the budget, because --
CHIEF McLAUGHLIN: That station will come into the budget actually -- let me reiterate that. It
will not come into our budget. The Ochopee Fire Control District cannot fund a station out there for
transient population. They have been bearing that burden to taxpaycrs for a number of years. That will
come into play when the concessionaire or the state comes up with the money to fund it.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So the state -- because that didn't seem fair that we're paying for
essentially, like you say, transient.
CHIEF McLAUGHLIN: We cannot afford to put a station out there. As it is at this time the
taxpayers of that district are funding that response out there and have been for a number of years without
any reciprocity.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And all the cost of operation will ultimately be state?
CHIEF McLAUGHLIN: State or concessionaire.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Concessionaire, you mean is if they sell 1-75 or--
CHIEF McLAUGHLIN: If the Governor was to sell it off to someone--
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Part ofthat agreement does --
CHIEF McLAUGHLIN: -- that RFP will be in there for them to fund that.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: All right, thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Murray'!
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Calm down.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I think maybe I heard -- sorry about -- they don't always pick up
everything.
I was going to ask the question about 1-75, whether that's changed, and I think you just answered
that question.
CHIEF McLAUGHLIN: Yes, sir. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Any other questions of the Chief?
(No response.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, Mr. Baytos, do you want to forward a motion?
MR. BA YTOS: I move approval of the Ochopee AUIR.
MS. DOWNS: Second.
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MR. BA YTOS: All in favor? Aye.
MS. DOWNS: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And for the Planning Commission?
Mr. Schiffer.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I move that we forward with a recommendation of approval the
2008 AUlR for the Ochopee Fire Control and Rescue District as shown on the summary form.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Second.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All in favor?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Aye. Thank you.
CHIEF McLAUGHLIN: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Have a good day.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And now Pat's bad boy, Mr. Casalanguida.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: **Good morning, commission members. Nick Casalanguida for the
record to present the transportation road section of the AUIR.
Start out by echoing Randy's and Mike's comments concerned about vacancy rates. We don't deal
with populations in a five-year AUlR but we do deal with them in long-range planning, so it is an issue for
us as well too. Vacancy rates are a particular concern I'll touch on later as we get through the presentation.
On your first page it talks about our revenue stream and our revenue sources and what they are.
And the pie chart on the second page breaks it down a little bit. Wanted to note is we have an impact fee
rate per lane mile. We are bringing that down based on construction costs. That number has not been
finalized yet. But keep in mind that is a unit cost, and as we move from the urban area to the rural area, we
have to buy more units to satisfY that demand.
Your trip length is a factor of people, where their origin destination comes from. So typically in
your urban area your origin destination trip length is shorter. As development grows to the east part of the
county, that trip length grows.
And you can see why. If you take the Golden Gate Estates as an example, sorneone who lives in the
Estates and comes to work travels farther than someone who lives in the urban area.
So while my costs will come down, I have to buy more units -- my unit costs come down, I'm going
to have to buy off road to build that. So that's tied into the impact fee update coming out. But I wanted to
kind of touch on that a little bit.
With our pie chart that we have as attachment A, we have a comparison between 2008 and 2012,
and 2009 and 2013. And you can see the impact fee change from $335 million down to $170 million. So
there's a big change in our impact fee revenues in this next five-year plan as well, too. And it gives you an
idea -- as well as gas tax coming down as well, slightly. The revenue numbers appear to be holding fairly
current.
Under our attachments B, conditions report and considerations, we do this based on traffic counts.
Our AUIR is based on traffic counts. We have permanent count stations and quarterly count stations. We
factor those and adjust those up to the 250th highest hour.
There's a section here regarding maintenance that I know Norman will step up in a little bit. He
really wants to touch on the maintenance aspect of it going forward. It's not typically part of the AUIR. We
put it in there as kind of a flag to let you know what our concerns are about that.
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Flipping through the next page, Page 16, this is where I want to talk about the vacancy rates, and
it's important that you understand it and how it impacts this AUIR.
When you look at our vacancy rates, even in the rural area, on the roads such as I live on, on an
Estates typical road, we're seeing about a 20 percent vacancy rate. So one out of every five homes is there
but not lived in. And then when you get into the urban area it can be as high as 50 percent. You take
Livingston Road, a development like Positano Place, and your vacancy rates can be even higher.
What does that do for us? Well, you know how we base our AUlR. And if you don't, I'll give you a
quick snapshot or run-through.
We take background--
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Nick, can you, a, slow down so that Cherie' doesn't have a problem,
and b, it is going to be necessary to explain. We do have some people who are going through their first
AUlR. So it would be good to give those explanations to people.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I'm trying to maintain a level of service here, that's why I'm keeping the
speed up.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Slow down.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Nick, before you do that, when you say vacancy rate, that means a
non-seasonable, unoccupied unit, correct?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I wouldn't say it's non-seasonable. It's a little bit of seasonable as well,
too. But it's the unoccupied unit that's in that 250th highest hour range, that transition from non-season to
season or that year-round person. It's still a factor that we deal with. It's not a seasonal vacancy rate as much
as it is a real vacancy rate almost year-round, like as you're suggesting.
To the trip bank and what we do to maintain concurrency. We take traffic counts on each segment
of roadway that we maintain in our AUIR, and runs as your baseline of what's out there today. And then
when developments come online, before they actually C.O., we factor in a trip bank, an assumed amount of
traffic that they're going to put on the roadway network. That's added to your background traffic, that
measured number, and it sets what's called your anticipated roadway volume.
And then we have a level of service volume that's hopefully higher than that. And as you approach
that level of service that can't put any more cars on the road, that's where we slow down the plan to do road
projects or we stop development if we exceed that.
Now, if your background traffic is artificially low because of vacancy rates -- now, Livingston
Road is an example. If I'm assuming Positano is fully built out and those units are fully occupied, I should
be measuring them on our roads. Now, if that vacancy rate is high, I'm not picking that unit up anymore,
and we've assumed it's an occupied unit.
So what happens is you may be approving development in certain parts of county based on an
assumed background traffic that's artificially low because of vacancy rates.
So what are we doing in transportation? Well, typically what we do one year after we've approved a
project, our staff goes out and visits the site to see if it's occupied site. If it's a multi-family building is it up,
does it have its C.O. and is it occupied. One year after it usually gets its C.O. we assume it to be full, people
on the ground and moving.
We pull it out of the trip bank and we put it into the background traffic where we say we're going to
measure it now. If the units are vacant and we think they've gone into the background traffic, we have an
artificially low background traffic.
So what we're doing right now is we're waiting one more year to pull that trip bank out. I want to
make sure that these units are occupied before I start counting them in the background traffic. And I have to
get permission from the board to do that and this commission.
But that's kind of that safety net to keep that trip bank still there. Because if you don't, and if] say
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they're in the background traffic and they're not -- and that applies to commercial development too like the
Marquesa Plaza that's up, half the stores are not full yet but it's C.O.'d and I have no way, similar to what
Randy and Mike had said, through electric meters or anything like that to determine that vacancy, I'm going
to be setting an artificially low service volume or service ceiling in there.
So that's the concern we have with vacancy rates. And there is no easy way to address that.
Are there any questions on that?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: No. Nick, while you're explaining, can you explain phantom unit
-- what we call phantom units and how do we address that? Are we addressing it, did we ever get a handle
on it?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Well, your phantom units are more in your long-range planning. I have
to assume a certain amount of development intensity within a PUD, for instance, that was what was zoned.
So when you plug that into your long-range model in that traffic analysis zone, I'm assuming say 1,000
units, that's what they were approved for, realistically they may be able to build only 600. So it affects your
long-range modeling.
And I may be overemphasizing what I need based on that, but in terms of my concurrency system it
doesn't affect it, your five-year AUIR, because it's based on real counts and real approvals.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Okay, thank you.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: You're welcome.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahead, Brad.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Nick, just to make sure I understand. So when you say a trip bank,
that's a unit that's approved but in your books it hasn't been built out yet.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: For instance, if you come in for a plat and you want to plat a 100-unit
subdivision and the plat goes through us and we approve that plat, we put those cars on the road as if they
were there, because that's your concurrency system. So that's the trip bank. It's waiting to be counted in the
background traffic, but it's a unit that's put on that road, a traffic unit. So that we're not approving 10
developments all at the same time and they haven't come on the road yet n
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And then the second thing is, once the units are built out, or half of
them or something, you will then put them in the background, and then your problem is that you're out on
the street doing counts. And if in fact these are vacant units, although they essentially were built, you're
coming up with low numbers in your counts based upon the background count that n
MR. CASALANGUIDA: That's corrcct. That's correct.
So you're getting that feeling today when you're driving on the roads we're doing a good job, we've
built a bunch of six-lane roads, overpasses, things are going well, and you say okay, don't build anymore
roads, we're doing good. Or you don't think that you need any more roads.
You can't think that. If you have all these vacant units out there, when they come online you're
going to need the roadway capacity. And so we're planning for that and accommodating that, but I don't --
we don't have a good mechanism where compo planning and transportation identify that vacancy rate. There
isn't a good way to do that.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Nick, would correct or better population numbers help you
project through the future?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: They help us. More accurate population numbers do help us. But for the
purpose of the AUIR, it would not. That vacancy rate, if there was a good way to n either through electric
service, ifthere was a way to deal with electric companies, say -- you know, like they talked about n Irene
talked about a builder keeping a unit online just to maintain it for mold. If there was a way to tell what limit
of electricity was used that we call an active unit, it would help us. But I have no way of dealing with that
vacancy issue that's very good.
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October 22, 2008
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Thank you.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: You're welcome.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Nick, one. But don't you have to be very careful, because that
thing could be occupied in an instant?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Yes, sir, that's why I'm concerned.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I mean, nobody's going to take the power off in Florida unless
they're kind of dumb.
And then -- but that means how do you know that somebody's not going to come in tomorrow and
is driving down 75 as we speak?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: That's the problem. I don't know. And so what I'm recommending to this
board is the trip bank from last year, I don't try to put it in the background, I leave it as a trip bank for right
now. So Wlits that are approved to be developed that aren't built yet, I leave them in the trip bank.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But again, they could be occupied overnight and they should have
been in the backgroWld.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: But as long as I have my trip bank, I'm accoWlting for them in my
system. Once I pull them out of my trip bank because they've been C.O.'d and the building's up -- you
mentioned one of the towers being looked through, I mean, is there anybody living in that tower anymore.
If that tower's C.O.'d to me, within one year afterwards I assume it's backgroWld traffic.
Remember, four years ago, three years ago, before the tower was built, it was sold. And they were
occupied, people were moving into these Wlits. And then the speculation occurred. So you have a
significant amount of vacant Wlits. So if I keep them in my trip bank, I'm accounting for them.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I'm still not -- I haven't caught on yet why that's a concern that if
you put them in backgroWld too soon. What problem does that cause?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: If] put them -- that number doesn't go into the back~,'roWld. I'm assuming
they're in the background. When you say put them in the background --
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Well, A trip bank, is that a subset of background?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: No, sir. BackgroWld traffic is my base threshold of what I'm measuring
out on the road. My trip bank is what I'm going to assume that development is going to put on the road once
it's C.O.'d.
So if we use Positano as an example, I measure 1,000 cars on Livingston heading nortbboWld.
That's my backgroWld traffic. That building goes up, and that's going to put on 200 cars in that direction;
that's what we assumed it would do. So you assume I'd pick up 1,200 cars the following year.
If] C.O. that building and I assume it's in my backgroWld but it's only half occupied and I only pick
up I, I 00, I've got, you know, another 100 trips that aren't going to be realized, that are not in my
concurrency system anymore, they're not in the backgroWld traffic yet because they haven't materialized
yet, and so it lowers that total number artificially low.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. But I'm still not 100 percent clear, but--
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: This is a fairly tricky little projection you're making.
When -- and I admire what you're attempting to do which is to make sure you continue to plan. But
at the same time, at what point will you acknowledge that there's a trend that is continuing that should cause
you to modifY your numbers?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I think we try and keep an eye on the vacancy rate. We did a -- as
transportation alone, we did a sample. We sent out staff to look at some Golden Gate Estates streets and see
what was for sale, what was vacant. Talked to real estate agents. We made some phone calls to probably a
dozen real estate agcnts and said talk to us. We talked to some HOA's and said how are you doing with your
HOA dues or, you know, what are the unit population counts when you have your meetings?
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Octo tier 22, 2008
So our numbers, we said about 20 percent in the rural area and up to 50 percent in the urban area.
We're going to monitor that as best we can using that kind of field judgment. And every year we'll report
back. And until we get a good feel that we're starting to get to a 10 percent vacancy rate, which is kind of
more normal --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: It's a year by year, and that's what we're going to carefully go by; is
that what you're --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: That's what we're going to do, that's our goal.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And I understand that.
MR. FEDER: Ms. Chairman, if] could, Norman Feder for the record.
Mr. Schiffer, I think to clarify -- and Nick's done a good job going through it -- but basically what
you have is we've got background traffic is basically traffic counts. So we're going out and doing and
ongoing process of traffic counts, quarterly counts, and we've got permanent count stations that we factor
everything by.
So that is assumed that all the development out there, people are making trips, they're going.
As we get new development approved, we take that units and the trips that should be generated for
it and put it into the trip bank. We then pull out, depending upon the nature of that development, its size and
the type of development, trips and move them normally in the course of things based on what we've seen on
the build-out rates of different projects into the background, with the assumption that those have now been
occupied and therefore I should be counting them as actual trips out on the roads in my traffic counts, and
therefore lessening that number vested as another development comes in and we look at it to our capacity.
What we're seeing, though, is with the vacancy rate, by moving those over on a periodic basis for
each development, the vacancy rate isn't materializing into actual trips on the road. So what we're saying is
we do one year where we hold back on moving those trips as assumed, keep them in the bank, which allows
us to then check on the vacancy rates and see where we are and not remove those counts as we consider
other development to our capacity levels.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I do think I understand.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Don't go, Norm -- oh, okay.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: That's fine, either one.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Vigliotti and then Ms. Downs.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Our background traffic is actually counts.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Yes, sir.
MR. VIGLIOTTI: How does the downturn in our economy and all the construction vehicles that
are no longer on the road, we have dump trucks, all our construction vehicles, a lot of them are no longer on
the roads the last year or so. How is that going to affect you?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: It's going to show up in that background number as going down.
Typically when -- if you look at a 20-year history of growth in the county and you see the spike that just
went up and down and then you do a normalized curve of what a growth rate should be, we kind of keep an
eye that as well, too.
So a couple of years ago when you were in your high, you might have had an artificially higher
background traffic because you have a plumber who's buzzing around 20 visits a day versus now 10 visits a
day. And as the urban area starts to grow up, you're going to get a more normalized rate of travel in that
area and you're going to see that higher growth start to push move east, that increased traffic, to meet
construction demands and growth as well, too.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: So you are aware of it and you are trying to factor it in as best
you can.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Absolutely. And then when you look at the next chart, Attachment C,
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October 22, 2008
this is actually Norman's idea and I gave him a hard time because it was a lot of work for us to put it
together in a sense, real quick, but it made a lot of sense when we got done with it because it gives you a
visual look at what is in your following pages of that Excel spreadsheet with all the individual road counts.
What you see in red on Attachment C is where we have increased traffic and green D is decreased
traffic. And depending on the thickness of the line will tell you where the increase is greater and lesser. And
if you look along the urban area, along 41, start there first, you tend to see traffic is still growing. That's
your urban area. You don't have a lot of that construction traffic as much and that seasonal is not affected,
that vacancy rate on the urban area isn't as high as it would be on some of the speculative stuff that's been
built as you get into the urban area. But all along 41 we grew approximately zero to 10 percent. So you have
more traffic along 41.
You notice the big jump on Golden Gate Parkway as expected. We opened that project up and we
expected it to go up. That doesn't mean it's failing by any mean. I don't what you to think that when you
look at a red line that's necessarily bad. It just means it's a change year over year.
So that means that we opened up the Parkway, people started using the Parkway again. And if you
look, Livingston Road decreased as well, as well as airport to the north. So it gives you a good feel in the
urban area when we opened up a project, year over year that traffic's now starting to go onto that road.
But interesting, once you get east of say Logan Boulevard and Santa Barbara, you're seeing that
decrease, significant decrease, 10 to 20 percent in certain areas. So that's where your workers were coming
in and out of from the Estates. They're not doing that as much anymore, so you're seeing that decrease in
that picture as well, too. So it gives you a pretty good feel for what's going on.
Along 1-75 on Immokalee Road east and west, it's a static line that's under construction. So we don't
have counts on some of the roads for that one year when we're dealing with construction.
So that's kinds of gives you -- that's a snapshot of the Excel spreadsheet of the table counts. And
there's another one that gives you a different flavor of it that as well too.
Are there any questions on that?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Ms. Downs?
MS. DOWNS: Nick, I don't have a question on that, but you're saying that the vacancy rate is
normally 10 percent and now we're up to about 20 percent, and you're talking about development. But part
of your number also includes commercial development; am I right --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Yes.
MS. DOWNS: -- empty store fronts, empty shopping centers, empty otlice buildings.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Yes, ma'am.
MS. DOWNS: So you're factoring in for when these businesses are occupied as well as
developments become occupied?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: What I would do -- the same as residential, that trip bank, I would like to
maintain it on that commercial until I get a good feel it's built out.
Now, what staff does, they go out to a plat of 100 units. My staff will go out with the plat and
they'll count how many houses are built and then they'll adjust the trip bank by 50 percent if 50 percent is
built.
When they go to a commercial development, they'll look at the same thing. Is it occupied? They
can make some sort of subjective call to say is it vacant or is it occupied. But if you have a plaza that
opened up and it was fully occupied when we counted it and said now it's in the background traffic, and
those businesses didn't last and they become empty units and store fronts again, I don't have a mechanism to
go back and keep checking that. So we're going to keep an eye on it, and if it becomes an issue we'll bring it
up.
MS. DOWNS: Okay.
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October 22, 2008
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Wolfley?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Good morning, Nick. We've got an area, some areas that are still
failing. Now it seems like we've done a great job over the last half a decade or so in getting caught up from
those late '90's problems that we had.
I noticed something that keeps glaring at me and that is that 951 corridor -- well, Collier Boulevard,
Davis, you know, 41. I mean, that whole -- what are we going to do about that? One of the only places in
red that I see. Same area, it's gone through moratorium, didn't seem to --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Are you referring to Attachment H, sir, the diagram?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Well, F, I guess, and Attachment C, looking at C and Attachment
F as in Frank. If you look at the LOS and the remaining capacity we're in negatives, and it's certainly
failing.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I think a picture says a thousand words. And probably your Attachment
is H. It takes those -- those Excel spreadsheets, the same thing we've done is given you graphics so you're
not trying to file through that Excel spreadsheet and get a feel for it.
So if you want to -- we'll jump around this map a little bit because it will talk about what we've
done and what we are doing to address your concerns.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Let me just say the crux of this is is that we've six-Ianed an awful
lot of areas that needed it, and 1 don't even see a fix for that, especially that Davis and 951, 75, that area in
there especially.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: If you're on Attachment H, why don't I walk you through Attachment H.
And when we get to that area I'll walk you through each project.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Good.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Okay, we're at the northwest comer of the county where you have old
U.S. 41, okay, and it's in yellow and it says existing deficiency vested trips. What that means is the trip
bank, on the ground it's not failing, if you go out there and you say I've got enough capacity on the ground
right now. But when you take into account what should be coming on line, that segment should fail. Now
it's only a two-lane segment, so it doesn't take much to send that over the top.
What we've done is that old U.S. 41 heading southbound into 41, we've done a major intersection
improvement to developer. That should help that area over there as well too.
Heading farther south on Vanderbilt Beach Road --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Wait a minute, before you go on on that, those intersection
improvements, are those complete at this time?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I think two of them are and one is still pending. And I'll find out about
that.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Are they meant to -- is it a fix or is it a solution?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: It's a fix. A solution would probably be -- if you look at old U.S. 41 at
some point in time doing some sort of capacity improvement on the actual link itself.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Go ahead. Now you can go.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Heading farther south down to Vanderbilt Beach Road, you have the
blue side, which is 2010 expected deficiency, and that's also based on traffic counts and vested trips. A
concern was that Mercato development, they're building in that loop road. And that's one of the things
they're doing now. That loop road is not going to service as a cut-through, it's not designed that way. So that
was one of the concerns in that area. It's in that TCMA, so we're going to keep an eye on that.
To the east part that approaches Airport-Pulling Road, the yellow, the county's planning on
six-Ianing the west side of the intersection for approximately a mile-and-a-half as an in-house project. We
wouldn't need any right-of:way or very minimal. And that's something we're doing as the county. So that --
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October 22, 2008
funding, you know, funding available, that's one of the projects to fix that.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: So that wasn't something that was factored into the Mercato?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: It was. It was factored into the Mercato.
When you go up to 1-75 and Immokalee, you see a yellow and a red. We've done a pretty good job
working with DOT and also our county project. We're doing what's called a modified six-lane or almost an
eight-lane section there from the Strand Boulevard and Juliet Drive to the east of North brook. And that with
the interchange improvement will take those back into an adequate capacity.
Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Nick, you're showing that as an E, which I guess to me is passing.
And I don't know if anyone's here has driven on that particular road, especially, oh, you know, 8:00 area
and 5 :00 area. But there is no movement due to the lights --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Which road is that, sir?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: -- a massive amount of -- on Immokalee Road, 1-75 to Logan.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Understood. But what's under construction still, is that the part you're
talking about?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Right. Are you going to be keeping all those lights there?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: No. You'd have the Northbrook-Tarpon Bay light. Then we're going to
pull out the Oakes Boulevard light and move it over to Valcwood so your spacing gets much better as well
too --
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Okay, so we're going to keep that quarter mile from the activity
centers, we're going to keep that -- we're taking that back to where it should be?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Well, with the eight-laned section you're going to have the interchange,
and then heading east, you're going to hit the Northbrook, that Target Plaza, there will be a signal there.
Heading east you currently have one at Oakes, that's being removed. And then you have the Valewood one.
So your spacing is going to get much better. And then you're going to tie into that eight lane improvement.
So you're going to sce -- when we're done and when the state's done, you're going to see a sea of
pavement but a lot oflanes that will be able to carry traflic back and forth.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: You're saying Oakes is going away?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Ycs, sir.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Okay. Good, thank you.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: You're welcome.
When you had trouble down 1-75 again and you reach Pine Ridge Road, there's that yellow
segment that's right there. We've done a recent improvement with the developer at the Naples Nissan
intersection. We also have a sib'1lificant amount ofvcsted or bank trips on that link from the Marquesa Plaza
and the project to the north.
We are working right now to get that Whippoorwill bypass in. We'll be bringing something to the
board I would say in about a month or two that would tic in Whippoorwill Lane back into Livingston. So
that will help that area as well, too. So we'rc working on that.
If I slide to the east on Collier Boulevard, Jay's group has done a real good job with construction
from Immokalee down to Golden Gate. That is ahead of schedule.
And then we are in design right now from Golden Gate down to Green as a construction project
and then from Green down to just north ofl-75 as a of right-of-way project. So that is scheduled to go in
2012 as a construction project from Green up to Golden Gate in our capital plan. And that's the six lanes.
And hopefully I'll be happy to tell you that we'vc received a six dollar million grant for that, keeping my
fingers crossed. It's not out yet, but I've gotten some preliminary good news on that.
Heading farther south as you mentioned, 951 undcmeath 1-75 and then Davis from 951 west of
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Radio. We have a 20 million-dollar agreement with DOT for an advancement reimbursement. We're doing
that project in 2009 along Davis, that one-mile stretch, so we're widening that.
The county currently plans to add that one mile north up to north ofI-75 with that project and do a
one mile by one mile L-shaped project. And our goal is still 2009 and we're on schedule for that.
To the west of Davis from Radio Road to Santa Barbara, that's currently in FDOT's work program
in 2012. So it's still on their books to do, and so they're doing design on that right now. So that should all be
widened in the next five years.
Heading farther south, you've got intersection of U.S. 41 and 951. There is a DCA on the table right
now and there's an amendment to that DCA that may be going to the board on the 28th and where they're
going to focus on that intersection. The consortiwn went from a $54 million bond down to maybe a $25
million bond. They couldn't secure it -- economic downturn, the residential units aren't coming on line. So
we have a proposal to at least do the intersection.
The state right now has the design. They just finished the PD&E on 41, and they have design
money right now on that project. We're going to focus on the intersection as we always do. That's the
bottleneck. If we can get that done, we'll worry about 41 as money allows. And again, it's a state facility.
We want to encourage them and work with thcm to put some money on that project, so -- going forward.
To the northeast part of the county, you have --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Before you move on, what happens there? Obviously this DCA is
falling apart in some respects, in that the residential that's approved out to the east is not going to come on
line for obvious reasons. So we'll do the intersection improvements. What happens when those units finally
come on line? Are they part of the DCA? Do they still have to pony up whenever it is they come on line or
MR. CASALANGUIDA: No, they're going to pony up in advance. And they're going to agree to a
payment schedule. I'll give you a quick touch on what the DCA is all about.
Basically they're going to payor provide money in advance so we can start this project. Our goal is
to do not only that intersection for now but for tomorrow. We want to look at an ultimate at-grade
intersection that accommodates a tly-over like Golden Gate Parkway there as well, too.
So what we want to do is take the footprint of the tly-over you at the Golden Gate Parkway, overlay
it by the right-ot~way, build the outside footprint and get that interscction to work pa<;t 2025. We're doing a
pretty significant improvement there. And then after 2025 when we need to do an overpass, you don't have
to touch the outside lines anymore, you can -- the overpass would go right in the middle.
41 would stay as a two-lane right now to the east, and we'd address that. And keep it in mind, that is
a trip bank failure. Most of the actual -- you go out on 41, you can stand in the middle of the road and not
see that many cars. The big issue is that intersection. So we're taking that money to fix an intersection first
and we'll deal with 41 later.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: But you're saying that the residential, even though it's not going to
come on line right away, they are still part of that DCA --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Yes, ma'am--
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And they will-- okay, thank you.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Yes, ma'am they are.
Golden Gate Boulevard east of Wilson. That's one of the roads that we still have existing problems
on. It's only a two-lane road, it doesn't take much to cause problems there. That's in our capital plan I
believe in 20 II or 2012 to be done.
Right now we're going to 90 percent design and we're going to start acquiring right-of-way for that
project. And that's one of the ones that are on our priority, as well, too. That gives you a snapshot of where
the deficiencies are and what we plan to do to address those.
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October 22, 2008
The current two TCMA's that you see on that map are both intact. You have to maintain at least 85
percent of the lane miles above level of service. They are. They're both functioning well.
As developments come on line in those areas we're encouraging public transit, we're encouraging
them to do anything they can to do intersection improvements and maintain that TCMA.
Are there any other questions you have with regard to the A UIR?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Nick, I just wanted to say that I've been critical of the
transportation in the past, and -- I don't know, eight years or so ago when I was on the commission before,
and I just want to the say that you've done a darn good job in the last eight years getting things up to snuff,
not having to put moratoriums on and things like that, and it's just -- I'm just hoping with the funding keeps
up so while the population numbers are low, if they are, that you have time to get caught up from, again
those --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I have to give my boss credit for that. But thank you. He's done a really
good job since he's been here. I've been here only four years. He's -- you know, they don't call him six-lane
Feder or nothing.
But you make a good point. Now is not the time to say we're okay. Because of the vacancy rate,
and now that we are starting to see some relief, you must continue the program or you're going to be in the
same boat you are again.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I agree.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Nick, just a question regarding cost of making a road happen. Have
you seen numbers starting to fall down?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Yes, sir, we have. Now, the word of caution I have, the last two projects,
Collier Boulevard south and Santa Barbara extension, they came in about 30 percent below engineer's
estimate. There was very little utilities on Collier south, which is a big cost. And Santa Barbara extension is
a new road, so they're taking all the dirt from the ponds and just moving it in the site and building the road.
Our concern is when you get into an existing road where you have to do significant utility work and
things like that. And you're going to see as we go through our impact fee update, two things that will come
up: costs are coming down, trip lengths go up a little bit. People drive farther. So it kind of balances it out.
You don't expect to see much of a change in the impact fees. I want in advance to let people know.
But costs are coming down. And I think when our impact fees revenues, if they start to trend down,
hopefully the costs will trend down as well, too, and we can maintain that program.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: That would be appreciated, wouldn't it.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Schiffer and then Ms. Downs.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Nick, one thing. All these studies when you get the numbers for
the road, they're all, are they two-way or one way? In other words --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: No, we measure both ways and then we do our concurrency in peak
direction. So you're taking the higher volume of that bi-directional traffic. So ifI've got a road and it's doing
30,000 cars a day but the directional factor is a split of 60/40, I take the higher volume, the worst case
direction, and that's what we monitor concurrency on.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And the time of day, I think. In other words, do you have good
data? Let's take a section of Immokalee, is the traffic in the morning going westbound and then is there an
equal amount filtering back ea~tbound or --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: You would think it's equal. It's not always equal because people take
different trips home. So there is a slight change. But we have data in the morning and in the evening, and
we take the highest hour, from 4:00 to 6:00 pm, which is the highest traffic hour on the road. So we take the
worst direction, worst time of day.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And then you treat both lanes in the worst case. I mean, wouldn't it
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October 22, 2008
be wise to kind of treat a road as two roads. I mean, as two different directions. One direction might not
need the lane the size that the other one does.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Well, Commissioner Strain -- we don't -- we build the road
symmetrically. But Commissioner Strain brought up two years ago when I was here why don't you do a.m.
concurrency as well as too, because a.m. is the opposite direction?
And we explained it's a lot of work, it can be done and it can be funded. Typically your p.m. peak
hour is your highest hour but there are times when do development when we look at the a.m. direction,
because you're right, in the a.m. hour, traffic is traveling in opposite ways. So when we do development
review we look at it. But what's in our GMP and what our concurrency system is p.m. peak hour.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: We did discuss that. And the concern was mothers trying to get
children to school and stuff like that. So we've never done anything past that point?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: We do studies to monitor what's going on the road in the a.m. And I
think out of the 127 links we monitor, there may be only one or two that showed a little bit of a higher a.m.
one hour issue than p.m. Most of them are -- typically on all traffic, 4:00 to 6:00 p.m., that one hour in there
is your highest peak hour.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: The other thing is, when you were discussing the vacant units and
stuff, were you looking for like a factor where you would move only a portion from the trip bank into the
background, or you just want to hold them in trip bank for--
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I would like to hold them in trip bank for one morc year. And I'd like to
see them materialize. Now, we do factor them. I don't want you to think we don't. If we go out to look at a
development, for instance, it's a plat of 1 ,000 units and we count 100 houses up, we still leave the 900 units
in the trip bank.
But in general, if it's like a multi-story building, what our recommendation is, is if] can't tell who's
in there and we don't have a good comfort feeling, we maybe want to leave them in there one more year to
be sure.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And then the last question, in your summary sheet, why is the
reserve shown in as a negative number?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: The reserve -- its shows a negative number, we have to keep that money
out of there. So it's taken out, it's not counted as an income stream or -- so it's money that has to be set aside,
so it's shown as a negative number.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Why wouldn't you just not show it and--
MR. FEDER: The state requires that a statutory reserve and all funds be set aside. This is just
reflecting that we've done that.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But essentially what you're doing making a negative, you're
subtracting it from revenue.
MR. FEDER: We're just showing it as a negative because it's in all revenue, and then that negative
leaves us the revenue that we can actually work with, because we're required to keep a statutory reserve.
So yes, it is subtracted from total revenue, but it's the revenue that wc can utilize because I'm
required, as I said, to keep that box in reserve.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But is the reserve something that's carried from year to year or is
this of this year's revenue, this much of it's going to --
MR. FEDER: It gets carried to the following year. But it's of this year, and that's why you only see
the negative in the current year.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: What you're saying is of the revenue this year, this much of it is
going to be placed in reserve.
MR. FEDER: Has to be held in reserve, has to be held.
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1 b I ~C&~2, 2008
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Thank you. What's it reserved for just out of -- I mean, you're
going to use it in --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: It's a state-required amount just to show that you have some money set
aside as a contingency.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Ms. Downs is next, then Mr. Wolfley and then Baytos.
MS. DOWNS: 1 have two questions, and one will probably tie into what Brad was asking.
It wouldn't be the first time that FDOT did not come through with promised funds. You talk about a
road that 25 million is coming from FDOT. If you don't get that 25 million, do you go into reserves for it,
do you move your fifth year projcct out to a sixth year? How do you account for that lost 25 million?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Right. The section of Davis from Radio Road to 951 is 20 million. We
have the money into our accounts to do that job. We have an agreement to get paid back starting in 2011 in
quarterly payments.
That -- again, there's no guarantee, but that's is always on the top priority list of what has to be -- it's
an agreement between the state and the county, so that's always one of the things they pay back first.
Now, could they pull out the section from Radio to Santa Barbara, sure, they could. They're doing
design right now. We just had the discussion with the state about being low on the totem polc. I'd find it
hard pressed that they pull that out. But they could.
MS. DOWNS: And they've done it before. And do you dip into reserves to make up for that lack of
funding?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: No, ma'am, we do not have from Radio to Santa Barbara planned for, for
us to pick up if they take it out.
MS. DOWNS: Second question, if 1 may, you talked about you're currently getting earthwork fill
from where you're digging retention ponds on projects. What's the cost differential? What are you paying
when you're using your own fill dirt versus what you would have to pay when you buy fill dirt?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: It can be -- in place it can be as little as two to threc dollars a yard if it's
right there on-site, as opposed to bringing it out from outside you may be able to pay seven to $10 a yard.
But it's the transportation costs as well, too. They're digging that pond, literally hauling it 50 feet away into
the roadbed. So it's that transportation cost that you're not paying for either.
MS. DOWNS: And that's a cost factor that won't play into your figures for at least five years.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Well, I would recommend when you do your impact fee update -- just to
clarity, we just met with Tindale Oliver. That's one of those where you take a road project, you don't want
to use that as a benchmark for your future costs. In other words, you take -- when you look at what it costs
to generally build roads in the next five years, if you get a project where you're successful -- Santa Barbara
extension, it's a new road, there's no maintenance or traffic costs that I have to incur on that project. I can
dig the pond out and the trucks can run back and forth, that's expected to be lower and should be lower. I
shouldn't be using that as my benchmark for all my new roads in urban areas.
MR. FEDER: In answer to your question, Gina,just as further follow-up. On Santa Barbara
extension, not only a new alignment, very little utilities, but we're able to get the fill because we combined it
with the LASIP project in that area so we're digging a large area for retention, we're talking about 70
percent of the savings from the engineer's estimate to our actual bid was realized by about two dollars a
cubic yard for fill and earthwork, lime rock and fill, as opposed to usually in the 24, 26 range that we're
having to pay on projects. So it's a sizable savings.
I think Nick's point is well taken, though, we need to look at particular jobs to look at trends in
costing. That's why we look over time. And that's why unfortunately you look three years historical to
develop your impact fee.
As prices rise dramatically it doesn't push the cost dramatically up but they go up over time. Same
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16 I l1Zber 22, 2008
when they come down. lt doesn't change it overnight, although some people say costs are down and want to
see the fee come down immediately. And then, as Nick pointed out, there's other factors as well, trip lengths
and other issues that we take into account.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahead.
MR. BA YTOS: A question. I see about eight projects here of$20 million or more or each. If some
of these economic effects that are going on that are kind of earth shattering, if that kind of comes down to
Florida in different ways, fewer people come down, fewer people take vacations and so forth, construction
continues to be down, are any of these projects in a stage that you could say okay, we've got to make
choices, we're going to stop this one, stop that one, put this one on hold?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: What we're trying to do as well with some of our projects is get them
designlbuild ready. So if we get a throttled-back demand and a throttled-back revenue stream, what would
be our next step? Is what you're asking, I think?
We would take these projects and get them designlbuild ready. Take them to 60 percent, acquire the
right-of-way, don't finish them in full 100 percent design and then as soon as demand comes back on line,
you're not starting from day one acquiring right-of-way, getting the design done, getting the permit
approvals, you're ready to turn these projects on right now.
Similar to Vanderbilt Beach Road extension, our goal is to get it designlbuild ready. So when we're
ready to move on a project, it's not starting from day one. You're got a really big head start, you can bring it
on line really quick. But there is no plan to take any of these out right now, but we are looking at both
revenue and demand and we make those adjustments accordingly.
MR. BA YTOS: How about impact fee revenue as a possible fly in the ointment? Because
obviously the impact fees have dropped 50 percent?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Right. And we made, as I showed you in the first part, we made a
significant cut. Now, what you don't want to do is make drastic decisions based on that. You're going to
keep looking at it. Right now we're funded in our first year and our second year. So if! come back in six
months or a year back to this Planning Commission with the next AUIR and say impact fees are down
another 30 percent, well now I'm working with projects in the outer years. And hopefully that ties into that
demand issue I talked to Randy about, demand will be down as well, too. So we'll look at that.
But right now our first two years are solid and we're going to keep looking at that impact fee
revenue as it comes in and making adjustments.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahead, Gina.
MS. DOWNS: Designlbuild ready, is that something you're doing in-house or do you have to
contract out parts of that?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: No. Vanderbilt Beach extension, for instance, I use that as an example, is
contracted out to CH2M HILL. We're doing that design but we're going to stop at 90 percent and start
acquiring right-of-way and get our permits in hand. So as -- ifmoney comes in, you know, who would have
predicted this downturn, who would have predicted the upturn -- ifit turns on back again we are ready to
attack that project quickly.
MS. DOWNS: So if you're contracting it project out, you're having to sign well ahead of time for
that work. lt's awfully hard to adjust with the impact fees if they vary from year to year.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: You mean the design fees?
MS. DOWNS: Uh-huh.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Those are minimal compared to the construction fees. So we can -- in
our design contract you can do a negative change order down. So if we say we don't want 100 percent
plans, take this out of there, take it back down to say 60 percent plans or right-of-way plans, we can make
that adjustment.
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October 22, 2008
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Nick, still having a little bit of trouble --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: I'm sorry, I think Mr. Wolfley was first, then you, Mr. Schiffer.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: My questions can wait, go.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I just want something simple. Y Oil had discussed early on the cost
per lane mile. Could you go thtough that one more real quick.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Sure. Right now on your -- it's showing eight million, that's your impact
fee cost per lane mile, that's what goes into your impact fee assessment. We see it going down to about six.
Now that's your unit cost. That's what I tell everybody. There's a lane mile. That's one unit I have to build.
That's what it would cost me.
When you go to the east, when you start getting to the rural areas -- and you take the urban areas,
it's more condensed -- I need more Wlits. So as costs comes down I need to build more units to meet that
demand for that trip length. You may not see a differcnce in that impact fee, because I have to buy more
units, even though the unit cost is going down.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Right. Gotcha.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Well, wait a minute, Nick. You can call it a unit cost, but it is listed
here as a lane mile cost. so --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Right, one lane mile, one lane unit. So one lane unit. So if] have to build
more lane miles to meet that demand --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Out thcre?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Yeah--
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: The overall project will cost you less. The lane mile shouldn't
necessarily cost you more.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Well, the lane mile won't cost me more, the overall project to meet the
demand --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: The project itself will, yes.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Right. And in your impact fee there's factors, three of them. Your costs,
okay; how much time people use the road, the trip generation, how many times they go back and forth; and
how far they drive. So those are the factors in your impact fee.
Now in your urban area it's condensed. The trip lengths tend to be shorter. They can get to grocery
stores, banks, shopping centers. As you go out to the rural area your trips become longer. And that's a
function of your impact fee.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahead, Mr. Wolfley.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: No, that was it.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Mr. Schiffer.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: That's a new question I'll ask Amy.
Nick, the revenue reserve, just last year's reserves was like four-and-a-quarter million. If you didn't
spend that, you moved it over, it's coming forward in the carry-forward, including --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Yes, and then you're adjusting that revenue reserve as a percentage of
your revenues.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: What else is in that carry-forward? Is that money you just didn't
spend last year or --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Well, it could be committed projects that we haven't actually put the
money -- we haven't paid the contractor yet but the project's let. So we have it in our account and it would
be a carry-forward number.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But it says it doesn't include encumbered funding from the prior
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I 6 I I ~ober 22, 2008
year, so what is in there --
MR. FEDER: If you look on Page 18, one thing we did this year with our five-year work program
is our capital projects are still on top, but we did the dividing line here. You see all these projects listed, you
don't see any funding for them except for one where we've got some right-of-way shown.
Essentially all of these are encumbered, fully encumbered projects and based on our pay-out curve.
So you look at these, these are all under construction. Some of them nearing completion, others getting
close to that.
Basically if your pay-out curve let's say is three years for construction phase, sometimes four years
for right-of-way, you have these funds and you committed them and encumbered them two years ago, I still
have two more years of pay-out. That remaining balance in the contract and in the project is what will roll
into the first year.
But again, that is all encumbered. So what we're showing you here, these are the ongoing projects.
That will become the carry-forward. But it's all already encumbered on projects previously let.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: But Mr. Feder, that's not what your sheet says here. It says
carry-forward includes the budgeted FY '09 carry-forward and does not include project funding
encumbered in prior fiscal years.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: We broke that out from last year, so --
MR. FEDER: And that's what I was trying to point out, you have additional funding that is going to
come into the '09 fiscal year that you don't see here. You see the projects that will come. It's the balance that
still remain on those projects we do the year end and the roll-forward from the prior year. The others are
shown in here.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: So it's just the going-forward encumbered funds that are not shown.
Thank you.
MR. FEDER: Correct.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And then from what you said right before I asked this question,
Amy, could you explain, one of the things in the impact fees you're talking about is the distance traveled as
a third component. And --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Usually we handle that project and we just coordinate it with Amy. We
manage our own impact fee studies through our own divisions and we just coordinate it through Amy.
But that's one of the factors is the distance traveled. And we did a trip length study, and I'll give you
an example of that study real quick. We took Olde Cypress, two dead-end roads in the Estates, Boyne
South, which is on 41, and a project out by Lake Trafford, I think one of the -- Lake Trafford development,
I don't know -- Arrowhead. And you sit out at the end of the road and you do an origin-destination study.
You ask the people where they're going, where's your primary trip destination, how far are you traveling,
tell me the roads you're traveling on. It's done for three days. It's a pretty detailed study, it's done by an
outside consultant.
And you take that information and you say what is my average trip length. How far does the
average resident have to drive to get to where they want to go based on that study. It's accepted practice.
It was much higher than what we're going to use in ours. We blended it down with other state
numbers as well, too. We tend to have, because of typically like the Estates, a much longer trip length. But
we actually blended it down a little bit with more studies. We didn't want to take a small sample and say
just based on this we're going to use a vehicle miles traveled that's higher.
And what we found is, based on those studies in different pockets of the county -- and remember,
we're going from downtown urban to urban fringe to rural. So we took the urban fringe and the rural areas
and said, where are you going, how far are you traveling? And you do that as people come in and out. And
you do that origin-destination study. And that tells you how far they travel.
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16 ; 1 ~t~r 22, 2008
So when we plan for that impact fee it says how many lane miles are you going to have to replace
to accommodate that travel. And that's factor in the impact fee cost, how far people travel.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Because I think -- is there a way we could get a copy of that study
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Sure.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: -- because the state development laws are now starting to
introduce a concept of efficiency, and it sounds like we should really be aware of that concept as we review
projects, especially projects with commercial that would interrupt that, that should give us a --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Perfect question, perfect comment. You're talking about making
destinations shorter. We're working right now with the RLSA and talking the same thing. Put services in
developments that people will use so they don't have to travel so far. Make sure that as you plan the eastern
lands that they don't have to come in to Joe's shop for a building permit all the way in from east of951. That
there's a place to get a permit over there that they don't have to come to the courthouse.
We need to reduce those trip lengths. You are hitting the nail right on the head.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Could you forward that study thought, just -- we've never been
made aware of that. And we've had some commercial development out there and that was never introduced
in our thought proccss.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Sure. I'll give you the trip length study.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Ms. Downs?
MS. DOWNS: Couple questions. You say the price per mile, cost per lane mile, you're taking it
down from eight million to six million --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I don't have the exact number approximately --
MS. DOWNS: I know. But what do you adjust that by, by FDOT numbers per lane mile, or are you
using your average or five-year average, looking at your actual costs.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: It's threc, but it's all numbers. We look at numbers that FDOT's doing in
District I, we look at our projects that we've recently let, and we have two. So you're looking at everything.
You're looking at what's going on across the board.
Now, I can tell you that District 1, long-range estimates, they're not going to lower them. They're
concerned ifthey lower them too much right now -- unit commercial commodity prices have not come
down, fuel has, okay, but they really haven't. What we're noticing and from talking to the road builders is
they're cutting into their profit margins to get the job.
But the costs haven't come down as much as we think they are. They're just saying, I was making a
40 percent margin on ajob. Right now [want so bad, I'll do it for a 10 percent margin. My real costs haven't
come down, especially utility installation and relocate. That's still high. But I'm -- you know, where ifI'm
making a 40 percent margin because I was the only guy who bid on the job and now I've got to compete
against 12 other people, I'm going to sharpen my pencil.
MS. DOWNS: And I'm sure you -- I shouldn't assume you can't answer this, but I know District I
for Florida has the highest transportation per mile cost of all of Florida. Lee County has an even higher road
impact fee than we do, $8,976 was there impact fee.
I know there's more than just right-of-way costs. The land costs that ties into why our fees are so
high in District I. And I was alarmed by that until I saw California. Eldorado, California, 23,101 is their
impact fee for roads. There are several in the I 1,000 range, 9,000 range.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: A component, as you go east it's not figured in. I don't want to make this
an impact fee discussion but I want to bring it up because you brought it up. When you do roads in the
urban area, I'm not doing wildlife crossings, I'm not doing a bunch of wetlands mitigation, I'm not
accommodating flow ways. When you look at projects like Oil Well, Randolph, Vanderbilt Beach Road,
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you are putting in anywhere from three to $10 million of additional facilities that you wouldn't do in the
urban area. And those costs are real and they need to bc reflected.
So that's a good point.
MS. DOWNS: And so now most of your road building is moving out east.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Yes, in the next few years you're going to see more projects: Golden
Gate, Oil Well, even along Collier and things like that where we start moving to the east, yes.
MS. DOWNS: All right, thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Just one more question for Mr. Wolfley, and then we'll take a break
for our reporter.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Nick, you brought up Oil Well. That was something I wanted to
address. Looks like one-sixth of the budget is some -- for Oil Well and Camp Keais Road. Was any of that
borne by the developer of Ave Maria?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: They provided the right-of-way, discounted fill, water management to
that project done. So they did bore some of those costs that were for that project.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: None of the road costs, other than some prep work.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: The design work is -- all there is a split a little bit between us. But the
only costs they provided to us was the right-of-way and water management and discounted fill. The
construction costs are the county's.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I thought there was more of that on Oil Well that they were going
to provide.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I wish there was.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Okay.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you, we'll take ten minutes and then be back and finish up
with you guys.
(Recess. )
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, let's get back.
And I'm not sure how the rest of the Planning Commission feels, but are you happy going through
this the way we are, or did you want to do it page-by-page like we normally do?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: No, this is good.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: You're fine?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Then Nick, you can pick up where you left off.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I think I was answering your questions, ifthere are --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All right. So did we get everybody's questions answered as far as
we've gone?
(No response.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, I have a couple of questions.
The -- you have said that some of your projects are coming in as much as 30 percent below what
you would have anticipated.
What happens with that difference? Does it go to pay back our paper loans, does it go to other
projects, does it --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: It would go back.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: -- go to carryforward for--
MR. CASALANGUIDA: It would be in that one year's account. And as we let projects, we just --
we do that update next year when we're here again. If we had three projects in this fiscal year and for
example, they were 50 million each and we budgeted 50 million each for them, when we did our next year
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update, if they came in at 30 million, you would show that accounting would be adjusted.
We'd also do the same thing with the impact fees. Ifwe budgeted "X" amount and they came in
lower, we'd do that update as well, too.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: So you wouldn't be able to pick up a project that might be needed in
that year.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Well, as you get out farther on -- I wouldn't do it that first year because I
don't have enough data to make that decision, but that's why you do this every year. If three projects came
in low, you may see a new project in your next fifth year that you didn't expect because projects came in
low.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Ms. Downs, did you have a question?
MS. DOWNS: I did.
Nick and everybody, on Page 19, attachment E, since Donna brought this up, Commissioner Caron
mentioned the commercial paper. The third item on here is your commercial paper debt, which doesn't
begin until 011, 12 and 13. And I think we're all hearing commercial paper interest has gone from two
percent to six or seven or eight or God knows what.
How are you -- was that factored in when you put this report together?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: It was at a certain percentage rate. And the direction from both the
county manager and the board is to use that commercial paper only as needed and then we'll evaluate what
that interest payment would be. So we factored it in there.
We're hoping not to touch it in the first year, and then when we get to the second year hopefully the
credit markets are better, too.
MS. DOWNS: But you factored it at two percent?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I don't know what factor -- Norman?
MR. FEDER: I believe it's shown at five, but we also got some commitments previously. So we'll
see where it is. And we're not planning on using it right now.
MS. DOWNS: Okay. Thank you.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: You're welcome.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, on --I'm back on Page 13, the -- your general fund monies.
How is it that you luckcd out that you got the same, essentially the same amount of money as this past year?
MR. FEDER: Essentially --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Good lobbying?
MR. FEDER: I wish I could say that.
Essentially in transportation, if you remember way back in 2000 when I came here and we had fun
trying to go after a half penny that didn't unfortunately pass, we identified a level of need to get the backlog
resolved.
When the half penny didn't pass, there was a decision to bond the gas tax, which was done, out to
2023. That was two sets of bon dings as we needed them. We did one about 100 million, another one about
110 million, but our overall need was somewhere about 294 million when we started out as an item.
There was a commitment at first to use commercial paper, then a realization that as we were
growing quickly and our ad valorem was going up that we could level that out rather than paying out in
spurts.
And the decision was to provide 14 million out of that ad valorem for reimbursement of the gas tax
debt service and 10 million towards that gap between what the bonding provided and what the needs were
that were identified when we first went out in the program.
So that has been a commitment the board has held to, at least to this point, of 24 million a year
essentially. And that's been going on. So it's a level first 14 million of debt service payment and 10 million
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towards that gap to meet the program needs.
Does that answer your question, Commissioner?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Ibat's fme.
You -- attachment B in this report talks under considerations here about your operations and
maintenance, and that the -- and the life cycle of our roads from six to eight years in the urban area to 12 to
15 in the rural.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I know Norman wants to talk about that.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Are those national or state standards or local standards?
MR. FEDER: They are basically national standards as what I'll call the rule of thumb. They've been
somewhat adjusted for Florida. We don't have a lot of snow and snow removal issues, but we also have the
heat which hits us in other ways, and saltwater.
They're basically national standards. We don't use them as a programming decision, but they put in
perspective our needs. Because what we do is, say, pavement condition inventory, identify where our needs
are and seek to address it with funding levels.
What is our case, and the reason I put in this paragraph on maintenance, since the AUIR is typically
how do you mcct your infrastructure needs for new development, new demand. As we expanded the
roadway system over the last eight years, put on over 200 lane miles of roadway, all those roadways need to
be maintained. We've got sections of it when we first built portions of Livingston that are soon getting to
the point of needing to be resurfaced.
I've got issues of landscaping. Whatever your position may be, fact of the matter is whenever we
landscape a section of roadway, we have an ongoing maintenance responsibility that comes with that that's
much more costly than the standard road and bridge mowing, which isn't very acceptable, because that is
now pushed with 24 positions with road and bridge, 28 over all in the division, out to a six or eight times a
year basis, which basically very quickly you figure out that's somewhere once every two months. Grass
grows pretty fast during the rainy season.
So we've got a lot of maintenance season. I've got bridge program. We had five bridges that we had
to address the last cycle. And we squeezed that into our program. And you still a little bit of an expansion of
dollars shown in the bridge program across our work program, but still, that doesn't nearly get at the fact
that our bridges are getting 50 years and older, which is again a rule of thumb that a bridge will usually give
you at least 50 years of useful life. Now, some may last 80, some may last 40, you know, so it's a rule of
thumb.
So what I'm trying to herald here is while we still need to maintain our efforts at capacity and not
allow ourselves to sort of go another five years like we did in the mid-Nineties to 2000 of allowing all the
capacity to be used up and then once everything was used up said oh, my God, we've got an emergency, we
need to continue our efforts to capacity.
We also need to recognize we need to find a way to fund the maintenance for that infrastructure we
build and for that commitment that the public's made, very strong commitment to an infrastructure, in this
case transportation here in Collier County.
So the reason I wanted to put that out is to make sure that people realize that right now I'm woefully
underfunded in maintenance. We don't have the bridge program as the bridges come online. Resurfacing,
I'm on about a 50-year cycle with the last recommendation we're getting down to about 25, but a
million-five of that got pulled aside, may come back and turn back.
On maintenance for landscaping, 1.1 million of that was taken out. And all the money for new
capital, again, that has to have maintenance dollars attached to it, if it goes forward.
We got pulled back in our transit system, which is another effort to provide for services, but it's
going beyond that to actually being a choice trip. Fortunately for people, not just captive.
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So there's a lot of that that Ijust wanted to point out, as well as what you see here in transportation.
There's a lot of other issues we need to address.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahcad, Ms. Downs.
MS. DOWNS: Just n if I could have interrupted you, 1.1 million is reduced in landscape
maintenance. But you also use reduced how much landscaping you're doing, so --
MR. FEDER: No, no, that is for existing right now. Right now you have 90 miles oflandscape
roadway rights-of-way that are being maintained. That budget, even with the reduced budget with some
more advantageous figures we're getting in now, because there's a lot more competition, was about 4.9
million. A million one of that was taken out as part of the balancing the budget. We're looking at whether or
not that can come back and turn back next month.
MS. DOWNS: Okay.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I want to take a moment and just add to that real quick, if] could.
My prior life, banks would lend 20, 30, $100 million to buyers. And I'd run the proformas. I'd look
and say what's it going to cost. And I've been a kind of a stick in Norman's side talking about this O&M,
because you cannot defer the operation of maintenance. All these lane miles that we are building that will
be turned over to John, you can't say we're going to cut your budget by 10 percent. We still have to run the
bulbs, you've got to repave and resurface. And you can't do it in one year, you've got to plan for it over a
20-year stretch and then run it out over 20 years.
So if anything, what the board did this year, it talked about cutting the millage or adjusting the
millage and not taking that into account, I don't think we probably made a strong enough case and we
probably will going forward is all these new roads get turned over to John, our maintenance department. He
has no choice but maintain them. And it's probably over a long life cycle. And it has to be figured into every
year budget.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: I have a question that I'm sure Amy can answer for me, because I'm
not sure why some of the maintenance isn't included in impact fees. It is an impact. It's an ongoing impact.
I mean, I understand the definition, and I know why, but we let things go ahead with the
understanding that growth is supposed to pay for growth. But in point of fact, not only are we always short
on that score, but we're really short because we can't figure in any kind of ongoing maintenance ofthe
impacts that will continue to be there for forever and ever.
MR. FEDER: Commissioner, good question.
Essentially even in our impact fee for capacity -- and the state statute is it has to be providing
capacity -- is credited by the amount that we get in transportation. As you mentioned, we get some ad
valorem. It gets that credit. It gets credit for the gas taxes we collect. And it has to because that would be
double dipping. Even though those are over time.
So if] say 6,000 (sic) it cost me for a lane mile today n
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Six million.
MR. FEDER: Six million, excuse me. Yeah, 6,000 would be nice. Let's make that 6,000.
Six million for a lane mile, I am not collecting technically all of what it costs, because I am then in
factoring out the impact fee giving a credit for 20 years worth of gas tax and of ad valorem that will be paid
in by those individuals. So that's there.
So the answer to your question is to note that those other sources are covering my maintenance
activities; that is, gas tax and ad valorem, and that's where it's getting vcry tight. Because we've gone to
growth paying for gro\'o1h.
Most of my work program, and it's going down a little bit, as you can see by the pie charts, but is
still impact fee, which can only be used on capacity. We first tried that landscaping in, but that didn't fly
when we first went in in impact fees.
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So I understand your interest, and that's why I'm pointing out, right now as my impact fees go
down, as my capacity needs are still there, I've got more pressure from my ad valorem and my gas taxes in
addition to what I already spend there to go towards capacity, which leaves me with a transit system to
fund, maintenance issues to address. And I can't keep deferring maintenance, as Nick wants to point out to
me quite often.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: But, I mean, when I look over at Page 18 under your operations and
improvement programs, I mean, in the five years you're only projecting 51 million. But yet in that time
you're collecting 104 in gas taxes alone. So --
MR. FEDER: I'm only promoting -- oh, no, 51, these are selected projects. That doesn't count all
my operating. My road and bridge maintenance and other issues are under an operating budget. This is only
the capital budget.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, all right. Yes. I apologize.
Go ahead, Mr. Murray.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yes, I have.
Norm, you gave me a bit of a start when you said we don't have a program for the bridges, and
some may go out in eight (sic) and some may go out in 50. I'm sure you do have a program, but you -- but
my question, maybe for no other reason than maybe we ought to initiate a capital program innovation, but
do you not keep -- and you know you inspect them and you put --
MR. FEDER: Actually, the state does.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: -- you put it in a chart of some form as to their potential for wear or
their current wear.
But if I heard you correctly, you don't really have -- you know, you have a question mark at the end
of that. Am 1--
MR. FEDER: Okay, let me make it a small question mark, as I know other people are hearing this
as well. So I need to allay any fears.
We do have -- as you see on Page 18 as noted, we've gone up from two million to five million, as
you see across in our bridge program. Ideally some of that can go to new capacity bridges. As we inspect
the Estates, we've seen that we have a lot of areas where if we can bridge, we can open up that two-lane grid
out in the Estates. I'm hoping that some of it can be used there. If not, it will cover maintenance.
Now, we do inspect the bridges. Actually, the state inspects all bridges every two years, more
frequently if they start to see issues on them. We follow up on that inspection as well.
So we know the conditions of our bridges. We do some maintenance on them to keep the life
going. But it doesn't take many bridges to start to fail and require reconstruction before that five million can
start to be pushed very hard.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Can reconstruction be considered a capital element?
MR. FEDER: Only ifI'm adding capacity. It's a capital element when I'm doing it. But if you're
saying as far as impact fees if I'm not adding capacity, adding lanes, no.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: So you're strictly maintenance.
MR. FEDER: Correct.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Darn. Okay, thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Ms. Downs.
MS. DOWNS: Thank you.
Tying back into what Commissioner Caron brought up, and I don't know if this is for Amy from
impact fees or from you. An additional impact that happens when growth comes to the county, which I do
not see anywhere in transportation, would be bus service. And when you say we're getting growth further to
the east, that's even more expensive bus service than what we have in Collier. So why is that not a part of a
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16 I ~ctober 22, 2008
transportation impact fee?
MR. FEDER: There are separate transit impact fees with varying levels of success around the
country. Again, the transportation impact fee in transit is part of transportation. We recognize that. But
typically the transportation impact fees are road and bridge, impact fee are highway impact fee, and doesn't
include transit in and of itself because it's not adding, quote, unquote, capacity in that nature.
MS. DOWNS: But it is legal--
MR. FEDER: But it is --
MS. DOWNS: -- more than impact fee --
MR. FEDER: -- but you can establish a separate impact fee for transit, yes.
MS. DOWNS: And it's not something we're starting to look into as all that growth --
MR. FEDER: We are as our transit system has started to grow, yes. Because we started off with a
very small system. We now have over a million one, million-two passengers a year, and so we are starting
to look at it.
Originally the system wasn't that large and we didn't know where we'd be with it. We started in
2003. It has grown very well since that timc.
MS. DOWNS: Thank you.
And just one other point was somebody mentioned gas taxcs are figured in as revenue. But unless
I'm wrong, aren't your gas taxes mostly bonded, so it's not really spendable income for you?
MR. FEDER: They are bonded. But as I mentioned, I'm getting ad valorem monies to cover the lost
gas tax revenues due to the bonding.
MS. DOWNS: How does that work?
MR. FEDER: Basically I'm getting monies from ad valorem that are effectively paying off the
bonding so the gas taxes are available.
MS. DOWNS: General fund?
MR. FEDER: I'm paying it with the gas taxes, then I'm getting an ad valorem general fimd backfill.
MS. DOWNS: Thank you.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: To touch on Commissioner Caron's comment about transit, and also,
Brad, you touched earlier about when you're reviewing approved developments. There's one LDC
amendment going forward that says all future roads built in private developments will be maintained by the
private entity that surrounds that. It's kind of geared towards this RSLA where you're going to have all these
towns coming in.
We're also going through that RLSA review where we're recommending put in a transfer station,
subsidized busing. If you don't put them in this RLSA review coming up right now, you've lost a big
opportunity to encourage transit. And it will be a big debate as we move forward in the RLSA what you
want to see east of951.
And I think each one of those towns should have its own transfer station bus network and be
prepared to handle transit at build-out.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Can we go through on Page 18 and go through the list and just point
out to everybody what of the projects in the five-year plan also show up under attachment G, which are the
-- are our deficient areas, the areas we should be concentrating our efforts on.
Are we putting anything in our five-year plan that is not really an immediate need?
MR. FEDER: No. If you look at the section that I mentioned on 18, if you look below the first
double lines, that is the new capital projects that are being brought forward. As you look at each one of
them and you look at what's in the identification of needs that's on Page 23, which is attachment G, you'll
see that there's a correlation between the nature of the projects we're doing and the needs that are out there
on the system. For instance, as Nick pointed out to you, I've got Golden Gate Boulevard as an existing need,
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16 \ 1 ~ber 22, 2008
even without vested trips or bank trips. That is in here for construction.
The only one that falls in that category that you're mentioning is Oil Well, and we had a developer
contribution agreement on Oil Well for the construction of both the eastern and the western segments.
There were provisions for cost sharing in areas on that project. That need probably doesn't show up as well
as it should on the western sections, pretty much a need today, but we had a project that doesn't show
deficiency because it's in our first years.
The section over by the university is probably not as immediate. However, we did agree with the
university being built at Ave Maria with the town itself and its opportunity to turn around trips. The thing
we're talking about in reducing trip lengths, the beginning of those issues is why that's in the program. So
it's under a developer contribution agreement. That's probably the one segment is that western segment that
is not specifically driven, if you will, by the --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: So that's the 46 million that's scheduled for--
MR. FEDER: Portion of that 46, but again, it's part of a developer contribution agreement. It was a
decision by the board to --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Right, I understand.
The other one that I see that doesn't show on any needs is the Vanderbilt Beach extension.
MR. FEDER: Yeah. And there I have right-of-way and no construction. And as we said in our
program --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Right. But it's $30 million of right-of-way, $30 million that could be
used for something that is actually on this needs sheet.
MR. FEDER: And what is on that needs sheet that is not bcing addressed?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: I don't know. Is there anything that's not being addressed in the
five-year plan?
MR. FEDER: The best way to discuss that is to look at Page 23, as I mentioned, G. And you can
look at what we're doing to address the needs as identified there. And I think you'll see there's actions or
items underway to meet those needs. And so in fact we are.
What we're also trying to do is to take a section of the county. We still look at our long-range
planning as well as most of our immediate needs, and there's no question that while we have six-Ianed
Immokalee Road, I have no other east-west connector for a very growing eastern Collier County. And so
that's why the Vanderbilt corridor was deemed so important. It is unfortunately a replumbing of an area.
Sort of like building the house and then coming in and putting the plumbing in. So it's been a difficult one
but it's one that's really needed and therefore, we're trying to keep it as nmds and as needs come up in the
future.
But those demands are out there. The prospects of growth and the consideration in the ILS and
others is that that need is going to be coming and we're trying to plan for it, but we don't have any
construction shown.
And back to your question, should we find that our revenue stream doesn't come in, where would I
cut first would be projects that I'm not moving to construction. And that's one of the few that we're still
trying to do to preserve that corridor.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: I have a housekeeping question.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahead.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: You've referenced from our Page 18 and 23, and just housekeeping
for my purposes, maybe, help everybody, they're identified as project numbers, but they're identified as item
numbers.
Are the item numbers -- would it be possible or is it desirable to put a parenthetical in there to show
which ones correlate to which? Is there an advantage to that?
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October 22, 2008
MR. FEDER: We could. What your LD. number refers back to actually, so that you can get the full
details, is the exhibit before it, which is attachment F, where you have every link shown with an I.D.
number so that you can go back and see what basis it was and --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay, it's -- okay.
MR. FEDER: It's really going back to F --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I was just being lazy --
MR. FEDER: -- and I think that's the most important reference.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: -- that's all. Thank you.
MR. FEDER: I appreciate it.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: So are there any deficiencies on F that are not included?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I can take that question.
Commissioner, back to the deficiency map, that's the easiest one to kind of work on, attachment H.
Pretty much everything on that map is being worked on in one way or another. Whether it be PD&E,
design, right-of-way or construction.
So when you look at that deficiency map, each one of those has an improvement tied to it. And the
only one that's probably not funded for construction or really is going to be deferred a little bit is probably
that U.S. 41 to the east at the bottom of your map.
And again, that's a two-lane road, so it fails pretty easily. It's a state road. And I really want to
encourage our friends at the state to work with us to start bringing some money back down here to work on
state roads.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahead, Mr. Schiffer.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Nick, one thing that I personally feel is important is the bridge
work out in the Estates to complete the grid. And we don't really know how traffic will flow once we do
that. We certainly know the benefit to emergency, you know, access and stuff.
But what is actually being done? Norman kind of mentioned it as a contingency funding. But what
kind of plans do you really have for that?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: We've done a -- as part of the east of95l study with Mike Bosi's group,
we did an east of951 bridge study. And I'm happy to put it as an agenda item.
MR. BOSI: That is actually going to go before you the December 9th meeting, the special meeting
where you hear the horizon study in its full completion. That will be portion B of that presentation. And you
will hear Nick and Lisa Koehler, who headed the bridge study present that study and the findings of that
study and some of the effects ofthe improvements they would anticipate.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And in terms of the AUIR, when would --let's assume that your
given direction to actually start to include that work. What years would that start to showup in the AUlR?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: You mean the bridge work?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yes.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: The bridge work is in your five-year plan, as Norman pointed out. You
have a line item on Page -- in the CIE portion of it -- 18. When you have bridge going from two million to
five million and staying at five million in that -- out to fiscal year 13.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: What line is that again? I'm sorry.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: That's your first line under operation --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: It's 6606.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: So that bridge study that's coming to you is part ofthe horizon study as
identified bridges. And so first priority is maintenance, second priority is construction. We would start
picking off that list at the priority that you would endorse or look at, as well as the Board of County
Commissioners, and start building bridges in the Estates.
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16 I 1 6i~er 22, 2008
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, this is a bridge repair and improvement budget.
Okay, so what you're planning to do, how much grid closure or, you know, connection are you
planning to do there? Is that a lot of bridges, or --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I can get into the detail at the bridge study, but just to give you an
example --
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: We'll save it for that.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Right. I mean, Eighth and 16th that go north-south would be significant
north-south roads.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But this money is essentially to support the study.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: It's both. It's maintenance first and improvements. So what we're doing
now is we're looking at all the bridges and saying we cither maintain them first to make sure they're safe.
Anything left over goes to the top priority to build bridges.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But the funds that are allocated here, are they enough funds to do
what's shown in the 951 --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: The bridge study?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yeah.
MR. CASALANGUlDA: Not all the bridges, but it's a start.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. But what percentage? I mean --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Wc have about 10 bridges that we want to do, maybe 10 to 12 bridges,
and the cost of probably one to two million apiece. So you're looking at $20 million. So when you look at
this, you've got two and then four years of five, so you have about 22 million.
But top of that goes to maintenance of existing bridges. So what's left over would start that
program.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. But based on the outcome of these hearings, you may next
year be adding more money to these categories?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I got to find the money. I would like to, Commissioner. If I could do all
the bridges at one time, I'd be happy to do it. It's a funding allocation issue.
MR. FEDER: Mr. Schiffer, if I could, back to the answer that I had with Mr. Murray,
Commissioner Murray, essentially we had about two million a year for our bridge program that we hope
will help us maintain.
Ifwe have some major issues that we identify on some bridges, then we're going to utilize some of
that three million that I've added each year now to make sure that wc cover and maintain the bridges.
But ideally what wc're looking at is about three million a year. As was pointed out, if] need 20
million, it's going to take me about seven years to get there with my current level of funding if I can
maintain that throughout.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I mean, maybe you should start a new line item if we do go into
those projects, just --
MR. FEDER: And again, where you see below the line here when it says operational, we haven't
identified the specific locations or the projects there. It's intersection improvements to the other. Otherwise
it goes up above the line.
But yes, once we get an approved bridge program, go through the studies and we identify that, we'd
stop pulling some of the bridges and this would go down proportionately and the money would go above
the line to identify let's say the Eighth or 16th bridge or both of them and then the dollars go down and --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Why wouldn't it make more sense to use the VanderbiJt Beach
extension right-of-way money, $30 million, and build all these bridges and get them -- get thc grid going
that we know we need right now?
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~ lob;:~22, 2008
MR. FEDER: First of all, up until a while ago, nobody wanted to build bridges. And we started
studying it and tried to bring to the community the need. That's number one.
We still have a lot of issues, because everybody wants the bridge on the street one over, okay? We
built one and had a lot of fun with it.
So what I'm first trying to tell you is we're trying to do the study to show the need. Will that negate
the need for a second east-west corridor in this county? No. Will it allow us to limit the number of
multi-lane facilities and utilize a two-lane grid to its maximum? Yes. And that's why we're pursuing it.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: No, I'm talking about a timing tissue only. Because we're talking
about declining populations and we're talking about --
MR. FEDER: That's an option. Right now I don't have an approved program, an accepted program
of bridges to be built out in the Estates. We're working towards that.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All right, Ms. Downs had a question.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: I just -- Commissioner, if] could follow up with that real quick.
Most of your bridge enhancements that we have planned are north-south improvements. And yes, it
will take traffic off some of the east-west roads that don't have to loop around. But your problem of that
Golden Gate Boulevard and Immokalee Road being your only east-west road will not be solved by the
bridge connections we put in. It will make it easier to get around, it will reduce the trip length in the Estates,
but that rural to urban traffic, it will not lessen that at all.
So -- and as far as Vanderbilt Beach Road extension, I want to touch on that quick, too. I've been
one of the proponents, as well as Norman, to keep it going. Your GMP says a portion of your budget will be
allocated to the planning and acquiring of right-of-way for future transportation corridors.
We've got a corridor preservation -- a corridor management ordinance coming before you in the
next two months that you'll be seeing how we're going to plan on protecting even more corridors.
But critical in this time where property values are dropping down is we've put a certain amount of
our budget to advance right-of-way acquisition while it's cheap.
MR. FEDER: And that's the critical last thing I wanted to point out. Acquiring this corridor sooner
is going to be a lot less expensive. But even beyond that, as I mentioned, it's sort oflike putting in the
plumbing after you built the building, unfortunately. There's people living is that building. And we need to
respond. We had to identify a corridor. We're holding a lot of people hostage when it was known
somewhere along there. Now we've defined it. We're trying to respond to those people that are impacted by
the fact that a corridor will be built out in that area.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Yeah, everybody understands buying now will be cheaper. That's
not --
MR. FEDER: Will be cheaper and --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: -- the issue.
MR. FEDER: -- in response to those that are --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And that's not the reason for the question either.
So Ms. Downs, did you have a follow-up?
MS. DOWNS: Back to Page 23, attachment G.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Yes.
MS. DOWNS: In the middle you've used trip bank numbers. These are your deficient roads. You've
used trip bank numbers in one column and beside that everything in the red is called remaining capacity.
I'm wondering what that's based on. Background numbers, 250th hour, where do you get that
shortfall?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: That remaining capacity is what you talked about. We do that
background number, then we add the trip bank to it, and then it's taken off that surface volume. And if it's a
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negative number, it means we've gone over the capacity of that road.
And while we've broken it down into existing deficient is based on traffic counts, that means it's a
real deficiency on the road today.
The ones that are in yellow, deficiency is based on vested trips added to traffic counts. It means if
you go out there today, things look pretty good. You don't have a problem. You're still meeting your
on-the-ground service volume requirement.
But if you let the developments, which they're approved, they go forward, you will have those cars
on there so that it will become deficient. So we broke it down into two segments.
MS. DOWNS: So is it peak hour, or --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Peak hour.
MS. DOWNS: -- is it average?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Peak hour, peak direction.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Would you explain to me what in-house intersection improvements
are?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Sure.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Does that just mean that there's no developer, there's no impact fee
being used? Or what is it--
MR. CASALANGUIDA: No, no, it's the money coming in where we take a project, instead of
putting it out on the street to have an outside consultant do it, we have an in-house design team where it's
more cost effective to take an intersection and put in a turn lane or make improvements to that intersection,
we can do it in-house.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Good, thank you.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: You're welcome.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Does anybody else have any other questions?
(No response.)
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Chair?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Ijust have a comment. I alluded to it before and you've brought it
up that, you know, our population is down, it's time to relax on some of these things. But I figure right now
is the time to throw money into our infrastructure. Because if some of you may recall 2000 through 2003 it
was pretty miserable trying to get around when everybody was moving down here and we just couldn't get
through the roads and then we had to put moratoriums in place so that the roads would not be overloaded
even more.
I think now if we can somehow fmd the money, because now is the time to get our infrastructure in.
Because in five years we're going to be seeing that flow of people coming back here again. And well, we're
hoping that's what happens with the economy.
But I'm just thinking that -- and I'm hoping that this is enough money to accomplish getting
everything completed before the influx of people comes again. That's all I want to say.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you. I think everybody -- I don't think there's anybody who
wants to go back to the way it was before.
I think that the most critical things on this list are the things that we want to get dealt with, and we
need to get that dealt with first.
In addition, there is the whole issue of operations and maintenance that's -- and bridges and
infrastructure that hasn't been really looked at for a long time. We've just been building lane miles, more
lane miles and more lane miles. And while we needed to do some of that, Norm and Nick have pretty well,
you know, maxed all of that out and some--
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October 22, 2008
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Well, it's a catch-up.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Yeah, it's been a real catch-up.
But, you know, it's time to think about some of these other things. And perhaps some of -- I mean, I
will still contend that the Vanderbilt Beach extension, probably that right-of-way could be pushed out some
in order to enhance some of these other things that really need to be done today. That's a debate for the
Board of County Commissioners to have, and --
MR. CASALANGUIDA: We have adjusted a little bit and we will do so again if necessary.
And one of the things, if] had my way, and maybe, you know, in discussion with Norman, every
year when we show a line item of a new project, maybe we should show a 20-year maintenance fee that
goes with that project.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Yeah, not a bad idea.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Because maybe we -- because it's not necessarily for us, but it's always to
tell the board, look, you bought this. It's like buying a car or a house, this is your maintenance fee that goes
with it.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: A real cost.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: It's a real cost that you have to figure in for. Because if you say we're
going to do a 10 percent cut across the board indiscriminately because that's our budget, you can't. It's like
you bought that vehicle, you bought that house, you've got to take care of it.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Well, it's a double-edged sword. You got sticker shock, too to
worry about.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: You may, you may.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, if nobody else has any questions, do you want to take a vote
on --
MR. BA YTOS: Okay. I move the productivity committee accept the proposal.
MS. DOWNS: I second.
MR. BA YTOS: Unanimous again.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Once again.
And for the Planning Commission?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I'll do it, if you need one.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Sure. Let's make a motion.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, I move to recommend approval of the 2008 AUIR for the
county arterial and collector roads as per shown on the summary form.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I'll second that.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All those in favor?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
MR. WOLFLEY: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, you're off the hook.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Thank you very much.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Nick and Norm, while you're here, can I -- one little pet peeve is
that, you know, we put these guardrails on the road and they're really tall. And, you know, I mean, one I
think has got to be my shoulder height. They're kind of bright and ugly.
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If a 42-inch guardrail works on the balcony of a high-rise, why are these so tall? And they end up
becoming aesthetically the dominant part of an intersection. And they're bright and they're -- can't you hold
a design competition and do something different?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: We could ask if there's anything creative, but they meet minimum
standards, and they're designed to those standards based on ifthere's a curve there, the vehicle speed, the
roadway classification, to make sure that that car doesn't go over that guardrail.
So we could look into that.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So the guardrail, these aluminum things I see along sidewalks are
to prevent a car from going in?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: They're like four and a half feet tall?
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I mean, I watch a lot ofVin Diesel movies--
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Center of the gravity of the car is pretty low.
MR. FEDER: I think you're talking about the aluminum handrails that I have to put on. If] have a
drop-off at a certain level --
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Thirty inches.
MR. FEDER: -- I have to put those in at thaI standard. I have them on Airport, as an example, and a
couple other areas. That's a standard.
I'm with you, but I do understand if I have that drop-off, I have to provide for it, and this requires it.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: This seemed too high. And again, like if in a building you can
have a 42-inch guardrail for a high-rise, which the fall is obviously fatal, why into a drainage canal 30
inches below you --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: It could be fatal, too.
MR. FEDER: Yeah. And that's what it's for, for bicyclists or pedestrians.
But a little editorial, if you'll allow me that. We're designing so that nobody has to take
responsibility for their actions.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: That's a good point.
MR. FEDER: And that's by standard, national standard.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Right.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Thank you vcry much.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, Norman, you're back up again.
MR. FEDER: Back up again. I want to recognize John Vliet as well as Jerry Kurtz and Steve
Preston here from stormwater. So if you ask any particularly tough questions, I'll get them up here. But I'll
try and be fairly brief and then open it up to your questions.
Stormwater, we've had some good discussions over the last three years with the Planning
Commission and the last two years with productivity.
This was a project that was actually in your category B's. We had a write-up that I think got
changed by date only year after year. Then we asked a lot of questions, we couldn't answer them. So I think
we're a lot further along than we've ever been. But we also have in here an identification of process that will
get us even further.
So what I'll do is be fairly brief to give you the background of where we are right now, but also to
present a little bit about where we plan on going.
The stormwater program, as you're well aware, is .15 mills of ad valorem funded and goes after
grant funding. Most of that comes out of the Water Management District or the Big Cypress Basin.
Essentially we're trying to address not just draining the swamp, as it were, not just the issue of
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drainage, flood attenuation, controlling flooding so that we don't flood in the homes and the like, but also
the issue of water quality.
Because unfortunately, if you get rid of that water real fast, they've found with the Everglades, you
create other problems, not the least of which is when the dry season comes your water table has been
reduced greatly. Also, you have problems in Naples Bay with too much freshwater, other issues of the sort.
So the issue is managing a resource, not simply trying to do, as most people sort of associate
stormwater with, and that is getting rid of that wet stuff when it comes down in three-and-a-halfinch
increments on us at timcs.
Basically what you've got here is we've gone back to the board, which is a recommendation of the
two committees last cycle, and redone our policy relative to stormwater.
If you remember, we had a policy that was one-third, one-third, one-third, and one of the one-thirds
was MSTU funding which was coming forward. And once we did the two-thirds, it was unlikely that
necessary people would want to come with the rest of the monies.
So we came back to the board and we said, what are we really doing here.
The Water Management District, Big Cypress Basin basically manages and operates the primary
system. I'll use a road analogy, because that's probably where I'm most comfortable, but that's sort of the
interstate system, if you will, or should be -- maybe it will get there again -- is the interstate system.
Then you've got the secondary system, which is basically all your arterials and collector roads on
the highways. They are basically bringing that traffic from the local home, which is the tertiary system or
the local street, out to the collector and arterial and going on up to, let's say, the interstate for long-range
travel.
And in this case the interstate's bringing you to basically your outfall areas for the most part. Some
of them are on secondary, most of them are coming ofT ofa tertiary.
So essentially what I've got is the analogy much like roads, and we said in roads when I do my
modeling and I do my analysis, my concern is the primary and the secondary, not the tertiary. I don't model
local streets because their purpose is to in this case get people to and from their home, not really for through
traffic or through travel.
Much is the same in the stormwater system. The tertiary system is really designed to address both
hopefully attenuation and stormwater discharge and water quality around the individual homes or around
the local area.
Moving that then away from that area is the secondary system, bringing it to the primary canals and
then to outfall, both in moving the water and in treating the water. And so our focus is on the secondary
system.
We brought that to the board. And in January ofthis year the Board of County Commissioners
restructured the policy to make it clear that my expenditures of that .15 mill in grants need to be focused on
that secondary system, its improvement.
And the only time I really work on the tertiary is if! have a particular flooding problem,
particularly a home potential getting under water, or where a improvement to a tertiary is the most
cost-effective way to meet a secondary need. Other than that, the focus is on the secondary system.
And that's consistent in many respects of where we've been from the start. Because I'll call your
attention to Page 31, which is table one. And in our Growth Management Plan we only really had four
storm water projects identified. And they were basically the Gordon River, which in this case has become
the major project on that is the Freedom Park or the Water Quality Park as it's known; the Lely Area
Stormwater or LASJP improvements; Gateway Triangle; and then also Belle Meade Stormwater Area.
Those are the four that are in your comprehensive plan that are storm water facilities to be addressed by
AUJR or to be addressed by the county really right now in stormwater.
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October 22, 2008
So what we've done here is we've given you something better than just how many structures I have,
how many miles of canal or anything else, and we've addressed specifically those four areas on the issues of
water quality and flood attenuation or discharge.
And what we'vc identificd is based on the permitting that was granted. It only took us 19 years to
get LASIP permit, Lely Area Stormwater. But based on that permit, based on the permits for the other
projects, basically once we fully finished and meet all what we're able to do under the permitted activities
would we have in the way of water quality, which is acre feet where you're actually retaining or slowing
down and allowing it to be treated, or flood attenuation, which is cubic feet per second, how quickly you
can move it in each of those projects.
We identified what our level of service need in the case of Freedom Park, for instance. Our acre
feet is 24.6. That's basically how many acre feet of water quality treatment will result at the end of the
completion of that project.
Right now, and this one's almost a misnomer because it's almost done, but we have 24.6. All the
lakes are in place. And if you haven't becn there, this is going to be a phenomenon facility, not only for
water quality but for the county and for cverybody in the area. If you haven't walked the walkways out
there, pretty soon you'll get a chance to do that.
So on our five-year and our shortfall we don't have any. But if you come down to Lely -- and that is
basically a water treatment activity, not a discharge or cubic feet per second issue.
In the case of Lely, we're showing you that we have 372 as our need for acre feet. Our current we
have 234. Our five-year will give us the balance of 136. And so we will have no shortfall once we're done
with the five-year program.
On the issue of cubic feet per second discharge, 1,546, 1,105 existing, 220 added in the five years,
which leaves us 22] we still have additional projects in LASIP that will go beyond the five years of our
current CIE. And that's basically scheduled out consistent with the permit and the phasing schedule.
So this gives you an idea wherc we are. We still have that need and so we have to address that past
our five years.
Gateway, I'll just show you again. Gateway's an interesting one, because in water quality and
treatment, we acknowledge that there's a lot more we'd like to do, but there are some limitations. And even
our permitting we can't get to the full level of storage that we'd like to for treatment of the water.
So here we are, wc've got a project that's going to get 11.25. We'll actually be working with the
Gateway folks on this too. I.S is in our current surplus of what we have for acreage and ability to treat.
We're adding another 1.87. That's still going to leave us with a shortfall of7.63. But again, that shortfall is
really restricted by our availability to get land and work in that area, and that's recognizing the permit.
But our discharge will be addressed through these projects. Even though we won't get as much
treatment as we'd like, we'll maximize what we can with the project.
Belle Meade hasn't been addressed yet.
Okay, so that's where we are in our current. And you'll see our five-year program is there, too.
Probably what I really want to highlight your attention to is on Page 30 itself. And Steve Preston
has been particularly involved in this and working and coordinating with the watershed master planning
that's going underway.
And basically we have a three-step approach to identifying what new projects will come in here. As
you can see, we're working towards completion of these that are in our Growth Management Plan. But how
we're going to identify the next projects we focus our attention on. And that is basically identified here on
30.
First process is underway. Steve's working very hard to get field survey existing system, understand
really what's our inventory, what we have, discussions we had before we've got a handle, but we're refining
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that, in particular refining it to understand acre feet and CFS at discharge, not simply I have a mile of canal
here or I have a structure here.
The second task is to -- and that should be completed, excuse me, January of next year.
The second task is working with CDES on the watershed master planning. They will be doing the
surveys and the modeling, and that modeling will utilize our inventory data and identify exactly where
some of our deficiencies and issues are. And that would be the end of'09.
By using that modeling and identifYing the deficiencies, we can then start developing what projects
we need to bring into our program, consistent with hydrological data and information on a watershed basis.
So what we're telling you is we're bringing this one into a full Class A orientation. We've got the
methodology down, we're moving towards it. We're basically addressing the current growth management
projects based on permitting results.
We hope to bring in projects spccifically based on watershed management and specific deficiency
needs based on what we have for capacities, either for retention or capacities for discharge in the system
today, identifY those deficiencies and set a program to resolve them over time.
So that's where we are on the stomlwater. I open it up to questions. And I said I've got the experts
here I may defer to.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Noml, very good.
I remember from other activities and I think AUIR prior about education for the tertiary system,
that was something that we were going to foster. We also talked -- I think in the watershed issues we were
talking about FEMA and grant money that might come from various sources so that people could lift their
mobile homes, et cetera.
And finally the MSTU that was recommended that it should be in place for all these. And then
something happened there and I'm not sure what. I know this is not as directly related to your capital, but in
fact it is ultimately.
MR. FEDER: All of it is.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Can you tell us -- and I'll go first. Thc education. I recognize you're
short in staff, I recognize the limitations we are in economically. But have you been successful in getting an
education program about people taking care oftheir tertiary systems?
MR. FEDER: And Steve is over our MPDES, and yes, there's a lot of work that's been done on the
efforts to educate people on what they have to do and what was structured, and I can defer to Steve, if you
want some more --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I only want the answer to one question. Are we seeing success as a
result of that --
MR. FEDER: We are seeing some. Not only in that, also I have to give credit to CDES and their
watershed master planning and in the flood abatement efforts.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah.
MR. FEDER: They're doing a lot to get with people in that area as well.
I should note that really when we think of stormwater we are working on the major program areas,
but there's also pollution control within utilities and the group within CDES that are working other
components. So collectively I think the answer to that is yes.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And then finally the -- well, maybe not finally, but the question of
-- Bob Wiley was talking about monies that might be made available where people could actually get their
homes lifted up, particularly I guess mobile homes and things of that nature, to get them out of the problem
that would ease some of your struggle.
Have we been effective in doing that? And I don't know if that's your purview or if it's CDES.
MR. FEDER: I know there's a lot of work that Rob is doing for the flood management, both the
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mapping and the information. I know he's seeking somc funding areas, and I've heard some of the success
hc's had and some of the issues he's still pursuing.
I don't know the exact answer to that other than to tell you I know it's being worked on.
That's somewhat out of the purview of our stormwater program, but it's obviously related.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Let meet plant a seed then. I would hope that if such a program
eventuates that it could become a capital item. That really is where it's deserved, I think. Because what it
will do is it will reduce overall the stress load and of course make people's jives --
MR. FEDER: And again, it deals a lot more of the tertiary. And that's other reason that we pulled
back from that. That water hopefully doesn't get in the homes, that's what you're identifYing.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: That's right.
MR. FEDER: And then it flows in those areas, getting out into the secondary. I need to make sure
the capacity's there to handle it.
And so basically it's a little bit different issue, but they're related and all three are talking to cach
other.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay. And in the MSTU, did that ever manifest? I --
MR. FEDER: No, it didn't. We put one mandatory MSTU on what was called the Title Program.
Basically it was more for navigation in many respects than anything else. And that was a mandatory MSTU
that went into effect and does exist today.
But we weren't getting the funding out of the MSTU program, and that's why we went back to the
board with a change in policy, as has been identified with both of these committees in prior discussions.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Thank you very much.
MR. FEDER: You're welcome.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Wolfley?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I -- lot of information here about computer modeling and so on.
I'm wondering, we had a storm come through here, what was it, July or August. I think it was Fay, I believe.
Did you learn anything on the ground with that one with the shortcomings of our drain water?
MR. FEDER: Probably too many things.
Yes, we did. And exactly to your question, we work closely with Big Cypress Basin as well. They
have level indicators on their system. We do on some of ours.
We looked at that. We've seen how thcy've changed and how quickly they go down or how quickly
they incrcase when it flows from one area to another.
Lessons learned beyond obviously that part of it, which is directly in stormwater, is we had at
northbrook bridge that we're trying to get the foundation in for. The hurricane required us to open
everything back up and let it flow. We closed it back up, trying to get the foundation and the bridges all
ready to go. Need to get that finished off. And sure enough, we got three-and-a-half inches.
I raise that only because we had to open it back up again, and I'm still waiting for northbrook
bridge.
But it took days. And I actually had white water rapids coming through there after we opened that
back up. And it took quite a few days. It's gone down, but it takes a while. It flows. And a lot of area is
covered by these canals.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Well, I say that because I'm leading up to something. And--
because as you know, water sat in the Estates for a week to 10 days and brought up a frog problem then.
And I think it's the frogs that indicate that we aren't doing our job. Or not according for humans, anyway.
Did that change the budget any in how you're going handle any future --
MR. FEDER: I think hopefully there's going to be spot areas that you won't have that problem. But
there's no question, we have unusual events. You're planning for a threc-day 25 or three-day I O-year event.
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16 tcLer~~o8
When you have a 50-year event, you're going to have some areas of backup.
Just like we had a couple years back out in Waterways where really the system worked, but nobody
liked the level that the lakes got to, and it didn't drain as fast as everybody wanted. 'That you're still going to
experience to some degree, even when we get everything done. But having said that, that should only be the
unusual event, and in some cases we're experiencing that in a normal evcnt.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Okay. So that didn't change any of your financials at all?
MR. FEDER: My finances are sort of fixed and I'm going after -- other than grants, which we're
pursuing. And as a matter of fact we're doubling that effort. And so I'm sort of using my financing to meet
my needs. The ones identified in the growth management and sctting up a system to further define my need
for the future.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Okay. So do you feel ifthat storm comes along next month you'd
be ready for it?
MR. FEDER: I didn't say that. What storm is it? How big is it? How long does it stay and how
quickly does it deposit three-and-a-half inches?
I can tell you but, the last onc wasn't a name storm but boy, it hit us hard.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Any other questions?
Ms. Downs -- oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Schifter.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Norman, the triangle, the volumes there, are those generated by
the triangle itself, or are these outside areas feeding?
MR. FEDER: It's called being in the center of the bowl. When you basically may be below sea
level in portions there, that's a lot of what's generating it.
So the volume is basically out of thc area, the impervious surface of the area itself. So you've got --
what we're using for the area that you've got defined here is a defined sub basin, yes.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, so it's really -- okay.
Thc other question is I know we have watershed flow way plans, and I think you mentioned three
plans. Yours is one of three. Well, why aren't they all combined into one? Why would we separate it?
Because you --
MR. FEDER: They are being -- what I actually was identifYing is we've got thrce different
functional areas dealing with this issue of water and how we work with it.
I've got in CDES sort of the longer range planning, the insurance, the floodplain broader planning.
I've got within utilities pollution control. And you've got issues that occur, water levels and issues there that
relate, a little less so, but still. And then of course you've got stormwater within transportation.
As far as the coordination of planning, we're working with each other. But I think what I'm pointing
out to you particularly here is they are working together. We're looking for the watershed master planning,
giving them the data and information we have on our inventory and our system capabilities to help us
identifY exactly where our deficiencies are and then to stop programming those as part of our AUIR.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So these models will all interconnect with each other, feed each
other?
MR. FEDER: Yes. The modeling we're talking about is the watershed, is the hydrological
modeling, singular.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahead, Gina.
MS. DOWNS: This is probably a long-range question, but I'm a little concerned with the amount of
money that's spent in the long-range programs for water quality. You can't change the quantity part, but
reduce the need for the quality, which probably could be instituted on the county level, but it's not, as wel!
as being instituted on the state lcvel, and it's not, would be the ban of phosphates that othcr states have done,
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reduce the nitrates, the fertilizers, the pesticides. That would give you a higher quality of water that you had
to treat, which should reduce your quality costs in the long run.
Is the county doing anything to help increase the quality of the water that you have to treat? And --
MR. FEDER: Yes.
MS. DOWNS: -- if they're not, why not?
MR. FEDER: I stopped beating there a long time ago.
No, essentially what you're asking is a good question. TMDL's process -- and I may ask Steve
Preston to come up here, he deals with it. But we're looking at discharge rates --
MS. DOWNS: What's a TMDL?
MR. FEDER: Come on up, Steve.
I told you I'd get the experts when you get right down to it.
But the bottom line, though, is that you're looking at what is your effects of runoff on all these
issues. And point source, pollution control, and that is being done.
Weare fortunately an area that isn't experiencing some of the regulatory requirements because of
the level of our runoffs and discharge. But that doesn't negate the fact that we need to address it. Steve?
MR. PRESTON: So your question is what arc we doing to--
MS. DOWNS: What's a TMDL is nunlber one.
MR. PRESTON: Okay. TMDL is an acronym. It stands for total maximum daily load.
MS. DOWNS: Oh, sure, okay.
MR. PRESTON: You've hcard of that now.
MS. DOWNS: Yeah.
MR. PRESTON: Okay. And that's the maximum load of a particular substance like phosphorus or
nitrogen or any other thing you want to name that a water body can accept into it and assimilate it and
remain healthy for its designated use.
So I think it is in December the EP A will finally designate four water bodies in Collier County as
being impaired under the TMDL rule. One of those is the Gordon River extension. The other one is Lake
Trafford. One is a portion of the Cocohatchee canal.
We do have the Freedom Park, the Gordon River Water Quality Park, which is ideally situated at
the very downstream reach at a salinity barrier between the Gordon River extension, which is highly
polluted, according to DEP standards, and Naples Bay.
So we'll be able to -- if all goes well with the permitting, we will be able to during the dry season
siphon water off of the Gordon River extension and pull it into that treatment drain and remove a lot of the
nutrients that are causing that water body to be impaired.
So normally -- I think originally that park was meant to take water that was coming down
Goodlette Road, which may only happen two or three months of the year, which would be flood runoff, and
it would be idle for as much as nine, maybe 10 months of the year as far as water quality goes.
So we've been able to increase the use of it by during the dry season siphoning water off the
Gordon River extension and running it through that system that's already there.
MS. DOWNS: But the more far-reaching question is, what is the county doing to make the water
quality better before it gets into that drain system?
MR. PRESTON: Well, we have -- it's called the MPDES program, the National Pollutant
Discharge Elimination System. It's a federal program that's administered by the state.
One of the components of that -- well, let me back up and say that that permit allows the county to
operate a stormwater collection system.
One of the requirements of that permit is that we run an education program. Right now primarily
our education program is trying to deal with pollution prevention as the major means for reducing pollution
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that's coming into our system.
The state regulates what's coming out of our system and so they leave it up to us to regulate what's
coming into it. And because of the economy and the practicality of doing that, it's primarily an education
effort.
MS. DOWNS: Well, as a county, can we legally ban phosphates, or does that have to be done on
the state level?
MR. PRESTON: Well, the City of Naples I believe was thc first in the state to have some kind of
an ordinance about specitying fertilizer use and quantity.
And the state has been trying to come up with something state-wide for quite some time. And when
the City of Naples did that, Tallahassee said please, no more, don't do that until we have a chance to make
some kind of a state standard.
And the practical reason for that is that you have suppliers of, let's say, fertilizer in the state and
they don't want to have, you know, a different standard [or when they ship different places, different
counties, different cities. And then you have the poor yard guys that are going to apply this stuff and he
might have contracts in Lee County and he might have one City of Naples, and ifhe gets caught with the
wrong bag offertilizer in Naples that's not allowed in Naples but he used it up in Lee County, he could get
fined.
So there's a lot of practical reasons why they want to make it state-wide.
MS. DOWNS: And when do you see that happening?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: In the year 2525.
MR. PRESTON: No deadline that I see. In the future.
MS. DOWNS: I'd like to see the county take a more active role, if that were legally possible.
MR. PRESTON: The last I have heard, that's in Community Development Services, natural
resources department.
MS. DOWNS: And they're not here?
MR. PRESTON: But we'd certainly lend a hand.
MS. DOWNS: All right. Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, anybody else have any questions?
(No response.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, the Gateway issue. What's the solution to the Gateway
problem? I mean, we're not going to suddenly come up with land, are we? I mean, it's --
MR. FEDER: We have bought land. We're continuing to go after -- we recently bought just a little
bit more, and that's what you're seeing here.
We are looking at other alternatives, but at least right now what we're going to do is relieve the
major flooding issues, be able to disperse the water quicker so that a flooding event is of shorter duration,
but we don't get to treat it as much. That's what I was noting there on where our shortfall is.
Our ability to disperse will be greatly increased of what we've got for projects.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And unfortunately we don't have much control over the
development in that area either, do we?
MR. FEDER: We have some control over it, yes.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Well, I mean, a lot of it's already zoned for what's there.
MR. FEDER: A lot of it's already zoned and being rezoned, that's correct.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Unless it's getting rezoned to go to a PUD or something, you're not
going to be able to extract anything either.
MR. FEDER: No, not if it's already out there and it's already covered.
And [ think Mr. Schiffer probably even has a better feel. There's been a lot of issues related to that
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October 22, 2008
area.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I mean, that's going to be an urban center, so it's not -- Norm, one
question, though, is there any ability --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: We don't want that the urban center, though, to t1ood, that's the--
MR. FEDER: No, once they come in with major development, a unified development, and we can
reqUire --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Right.
MR. FEDER: -- and will require that they address the issues in the fashion to keep it on-site.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: But I'm just curious, is there enough of that there that you will get to
where you need to be? Because you're indicating here that that's not going to happen.
MR. FEDER: What I will tell you, as we are developed today, we're working towards meeting the
needs. It will take probably some rezoning or some unified development if that ever occurs in the area, to
allow us to go much beyond that. Although we're continuing to look at what our options are. We even
looked at the possibility of deep well injection and other issues.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Norman, on that, has anybody ever thought of bringing this water
into the reclaim, the gray water system?
MR. FEDER: That's where the deep well issue is coming in. And there's a test effort on the water
quality of Freedom Park working with the City ofNaplcs right now for that, and so we're looking at that as
an option, if we can keep that water. I'm saying retaining's important, not just discharging. But if we can
retain it even longer periods of time and utilize it when we need it in the dry season or as gray water or
whatever have you.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And also that water could be used for irrigation and stuff --
MR. FEDER: That's what I meant by gray watcr --
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: -- within thc development --
MR. FEDER: -- but yes.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: -- of the Gateway itself. So I mean, it is a gray -- you're harvesting
water really, which could be used --
MR. FEDER: It's treating it as a resource, which is what we're trying to get to, yes, sir.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Yeah, we really need to do --
MR. FEDER: Because we have it at times and we have too much of it and then at times wc don't
have enough of it.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: That's life.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: On Page 32.
MR. FEDER: Yes.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Numbcr 11 is your stormwater master plan update. And there is
$270,000 in the next three years assigned to that. And there was 500,000 in 'OS. What--
MR. FEDER: We are now piggybacking and focusing our emphasis off of the hydrological
modeling being done by the watershed master planning in CDES.
But what we're focusing now more heavily on is doing a thorough inventory and analysis of the
capacity of what we have out there today so that the models can then tell us truly what our deficiencies are.
So we've refocused that master plan. Originally it was to try to do a whole bunch of basin plans.
We have that being covered under the watershed master planning. And now we're focusing it on getting the
inventory and capacity information about what we have out there in the system, our system information, to
be able to utilize that model ing from the other --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: So tell me again what we got for our 500,000 that we spent last
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1 6 , 1 o~2r 22, 2008
year?
MR. FEDER: Well, we actually didn't use it. It got carried forward.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Oh, all right, this is part of carryforward?
MR. FEDER: And actually got reduced to what you see here now.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: How does that happen then? Why isn't that part of carryforward?
And in this chart carryforward is a negative number, so -- which it's not anywhere --
MR. FEDER: Yeah, again, because in some areas -- and this one we had a project where we
encumbered at the end of the year a project that exceeded the balance and so it carried forward for funding
from the prior -- next year.
Essentially in answer to your question on the 500,000, ifI don't spend it, it comes forward as
funding still available in the following year and then gets allocated to projects. In this case it got distributed
out, a portion of it for the master plan, others for other activities, particularly the LASIP.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: So some of that -- so we decided we needed $500,000 to do the
stormwater master plan update. And now you're telling me it's not really going to cost 500,000, and we
haven't started it, it's going to start this year?
MR. FEDER: It's actually going to cost considerably more, but it's being done in CDES under the
floodplain mapping.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. So they've taken part of that away.
MR. FEDER: Yes. They're doing the modeling and the hydrological, which is the expensive part of
the master plan updates.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: I'm just curious here, because once again drainage and canals is
doing things differently than anybody else. Because -- so I don't really know what happened to that
500,000. It didn't get spent last year.
MR. FEDER: It didn't go away.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: At least 270 is carried forward as a stormwater master plan update.
And can you tell me where else, what other projects the rest of the money went to?
MR. KURTZ: Hi, yes. I'm Jerry Kurtz, Principal Project Manager with Stormwater.
The 500,000 actually got redistributed to other projects that we completed in last fiscal year. Most
of it went to Lely Area Stormwater Improvement project.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. So it primarily went to the LASIP project.
Okay. Now, your grants.
MR. FEDER: Yes.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And we went through this before.
Are we pretty sure about these grants?
MR. FEDER: Yes, both in transportation and in stormwater, we only showed the grants that we've
already got some level of commitment from in this case. You see that mainly from Big Cypress Basin
Water Management District. And they've put those in their program.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All right. So they don't -- you don't anticipate any big shifts in--
MR. FEDER: No,just I want more.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: -- those grants funds. Yeah.
I'm not sure that your column, at least for '09, is adding up. One place it says 12,247,007, and then
it says 12,147,005.
MR. FEDER: Okay, I'm showing 2,247,007 (sic) on both of them.
What you should have is three items into the first number, and then below that is the revenue
stream that supports that programming. And both of them on mine for '09 say 12,247,007.
Am I missing something?
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October 22, 2008
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON : Yeah. If you look at line four under revenue fund.
MR. FEDER: Line four under revenue fund. Okay, go ahead.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Right. It will add up to 12,247,005, because that's what it says here.
MR. FEDER: Yeah, which is also what my program is.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Well, no, because your total program says 12,247,007.
MR. FEDER: Yes. And down here my total program revenue is 12,247,007.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Right, but when you add --
MR. FEDER: Number five, you're saying you add up to number five and then take the negatives?
I'm not sure what you're saying to me, Donna.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All of your projects are capital improvement, non-CIE and
operations, right?
MR. FEDER: Correct.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And they total 12,247,007.
MR. FEDER: Correct.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. When you go down to where you're going to get the money
from --
MR. FEDER: Yes.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: -- if you look at it, your grant subtotal is 2,200,000. And then your
transfers from the general fund are 12,147,005. So that would total 12,247,005, not seven. So you just have
lost some dollars here somewhere.
MR. FEDER: No, because what's happening is actually if you look it, you got a subtotal right after
three is 2,200,000, okay, that's number one.
Then you've got a transfer in, which is the ad valorem of 12,147,005.
Then you've got two negatives that you're addressing. So if] took 12 and two, two, I'd be over 14,
I'd be I4-three something.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Oh, all right. Because your carryforward is a negative.
MR. FEDER: Yes, yes, those are both negatives. And with that in mind, then you come out both
equaling each other.
I understand the confusion. Maybe we can show that a little better.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, does anybody else have any questions on drainage and canals
and structures?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Onward.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Let's take a vote then.
Productivity Committee?
MS. DOWNS: I make a motion to accept drainage canals and structures.
MR. BA YTOS: Second.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Planning Commission?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I'll make a motion.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Second.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Move to approve county drainage canals and structures for the
AUIR 200S, based on table two.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you.
All set?
Bob seconded? Okay, all in favor?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Aye.
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16 I o1ott~, 2008
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
MR. WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: 'Then you're set.
MR. FEDER: Thank you so much.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: We're getting there on that one, Norm.
MR. FEDER: I know we are. We'll be there.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Now, yeah, I think before we start on a new one, we might want to
think about taking our lunch break now. Normally we take it at quarter of, but if we take it now it will be
beforc Phil has to gct into his presentation. And then we'll just come back earlier.
MR. BOSI: And I guess the one thing for consideration for this board, there are no new projects
being proposed for drainage or for wastewater.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Yeah, we may be able to whip through this one.
MR. BOSI: And in past years you havc showed a pretty efficient staff.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: I think we did everything for this year one, Phil, last year, didn't we,
because we --
MR. GRAMATGES: Yes, we did.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: -- reduced --
MS. DOWNS: Move to pass.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, the Productivity Committee is moving--
MR. BA YTOS: Well, we move to pass.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay, go ahcad, Brad.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yeah, I mean, there's some questions. I mean, I know we're
hungry and everything, but Phil, one of the issues that carne up in the fire task force was trying to get
potable water into all areas of Collicr County.
Is anything in here starting to work on that?
MR. GRAMATGES: Fill Grarnatges, Public Utilities Engineering.
No, there's nothing in herc that addresses that. This is all restricted to -- limited to areas within our
water and sewer district, not outside of it.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But how would we start to expand that district? Because it isn't
fair, a lot of these areas of Collier County don't have the required pressure. They're spending a lot of money
on tire protection and ifthey don't need to if they had better water supplies?
MR. GRAMATGES: Let me see if I understand, Commissioner.
We are providing a minimum of 40 psi for fire flow anywhere within our system.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Except the City of Naples is not.
MR. GRAMATGES: Well, we don't--
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: We had testimony there was like 20 and that's all they had to do.
My point is, is there any movement to take over for the residents of Collier County, you know, or
get -- you know, shed Naples and bring it into our systems? Which is superior, I think.
MR. GRAMATGES: No, sir, there's not. That would have to be done by the Board of County
Commissioners.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: In addition to that, if] might, and I could be easily mistaken, but I
thought I saw a city council meeting where they took up that issue and they were talking about upgrading
their system. And if I'm correct, that should solve that problem.
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16 bcltk 2008
Of course I could be incorrect, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: It's a long ago -- I mean, the problem's been for a while. And
there's some sad stories because of that problem.
MR. GRAMATGES: Understood.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So anyway, but what you're saying is, is there's nothing in the
future.
How would we go about getting that? The commissioners would have to tell you to start looking at
that, or --
MR. GRAMATGES: I would imagine it would require an approach by this committee or any other
committee within the county with that suggestion. I really don't know for sure. I imagine that
Comprehensive Planning could probably give us a better answer.
MR. BOSI: With that, as Phil had suggested, I mean, that would be something that you could add
on to the recommendation, if the majority of the Planning Commission felt that they agreed with that
position to -- and what I'm hearing is the potential take -- or the exploring the potential incorporation of the
City of Naples, currently their water system within the Collier County watcr system?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: No, there are parts of Collier County that are supplied by the City
of Naples. Essentially, you know, Bayshore, that area like that. And they're deficient in the pressures and all
that that are required. We have churches down there with huge water tanks for -- you know, just to try to
make it up for firefighting.
It doesn't become a problem with flushing a toilet, it does become a problem when your building's
on fire.
So the concern is that why aren't we -- why can't we go into that area and provide our county
standard to those residents? And I guess how would we go about doing that. I mean, obviously it's an
expense and it's a complicated thing, but it's not going to happen until it starts to happen.
MR. BOSI: There would have to be a recommendation Irom this body for the Board of County
Commissioners to direct staff and utilities to begin exploring the feasibilities of such a program.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Jelf, you are Irowning, but --
MR. KLATZKOW: If you want to pick a fight with the City of Naples, it's always okay by me.
But I fully agree with Mike. I mean, if you want to have a recommendation that the board direct
staff to look into it, that's line. But I think you're going to get an awful lot of push-back on this.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Yeah, and I would think that -- I would take a slight clue from what
Commissioner Murray said, that the City of Naples may be addressing this. And perhaps we should check
that out first before we proceed to push our own county to do something. And I think that would be a way
to approach it. It can always be brought up, Brad, at another meeting, I mean, if you find that you still have
that as an issue.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I mean, it is an issue. And the unfairness is that these are residents
of the county that live in inferior condition.
I mean, can we make -- I mean, obviously I think we'll approve this, but could we add that, the
recommendation that they look at it? If they look at it and the City of Naples says don't do it now, don't do it
now, we're going to fix our stuff, that's fine. But who knows what the City of Naples is doing, and who
would know from watching a television meeting to decide what they're doing, so --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Well, I think we can find out whether in point of fact they are doing
something about it or not. I think that should be fairly easy to Iind out. And then we can go from there. If
suddenly we find out that there's nothing planned for the next 20 years, then we can bring it up again.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And you could do this via public petition in any event. Any citizen
can come and go to the commissioners and raise the issue. And based on a health -- in this case a safety
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JtO~~2008
situation, if they would be interested in hearing it.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Can we get the feel of the board as making it an attachment to this
recommendation? I mean --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Everybody can weigh in.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Well, you're the chairman, so --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Karen?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: I'm not sure I know enough about any of it to make a decision right
now.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: I think we ought to look into it more and see if there's any
background that we're not aware of before we take any action.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: David?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I go along with Tor on that.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Commissioner Murray"
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I would agree that it's not a bad idea to make a recommendation.
But explore both parts and find out whether or not thc city is in fact doing something.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: My opinion's obvious that we shouldn't have areas where Collier
citizens are living in a second class situation when it comes to water flow.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I also agree we should at least look into it and find out where we
sit.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: So you want to make that as a recommendation with this going
forward, or do you all want to wait and find out first and then see if we need to make a recommendation to
the board?
MR. KLATZKOW: CDES staff is your staff If you want to ask them to look into it and report
back to you at the next Planning Commission or in a subsequent Planning Commission, you can do that as
well.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: That's probably a better way to go about it, and let them check in on
the issue first.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Who would do that, Phil?
So Phil, I guess give them a call, see what they're up to, tell them the natives are restless or
whatever phrase you want to use.
But I do think it's an important thing that -- for the safety of a lot of areas of the county.
MR. GRAMATGES: We will do that, Commissioncr.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you, Phil.
Now, does somebody want to move that potable water--
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: So moved.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Second.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All in favor?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Aye.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
MR. WOLFLEY: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: We will now break for lunch. Let's get back here at a quarter of one.
(Lunch recess.)
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1611A-3
October 22, 2008
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Can I have everybody's attention. Thank you. We're back on the air.
Phil, we're going to go into the sewer district.
MR. GRAMATGES: Yes, ma'am. Phil Gramatges, public utility engineering.
Do you have any questions about wastcwater?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Does anybody have any questions about wastewater?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: That was a nice approach.
MR. GRAMATGES: Thank you. Thank you very much, sir.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I'm surpriscd you just didn't ask for a motion.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Wcll, I think ifcverybody looks at page 44 wc've -- essentially therc
are no ncw projects. Wc'vc taken carc of dccreasing thc gallons per capita pcr day. Wc did that thc last time
around, so --
MR. GRAMATGES: Yes, ma'am, we did.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Evcrything is prctty well adjustcd. Docs anybody havc a question?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yeah.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Mr. Schiffer.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Phil, what are we doing to incrcase the ability to have reclaimed
watcr?
Arc we at maximum capacity or could wc do more?
MR. GRAMATGES: At this point in time we arc using all the reclaimcd water that we have. The
only exception is -- as you heard from Nom1, we get a lot of water when we don't need it. And when we
need it, we don't get any.
Because during the rainy season all that reclaimed watcr is not necessary. Thcrc's no demand for it.
The way in which we need to approach this in thc future is for us to storc it when it's available and use it
when it's not. Storing it is a problem howcver.
There is -- there's a financial issue with it. You can either storc it in overground tanks or store it in
ponds. And, you know, that requircs a lot of real cstate. And, of coursc, that gets very expensive.
Thc other altemative is to store it in ASRs. And wc are looking very aggressively at that.
Unfortunately, however, in 2005 the State cnactcd new laws about arsenic. And whenever you put anything
new underground and you pull it out, they exceed thc limits.
So everyone in Florida is struggling with that at this point in time. And until we find a technical
solution, ASRs are probably several years away from being a practical way for us to store water.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: That problem is -- is the water going in without the arsenic and
coming out with it?
MR. GRAMATGES: No. The problem is that the water gets injccted underground and thcre's
arsenic existing in the underground aquifcr. And when wc pull it out, it pulls the arsenic with it.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But all the people that are connected to reclaim, like golf courses
and stuff, they're using it throughout the year, correct?
MR. GRAMATGES: They're using it throughout the year with thc exception of during the rainy
season. Obviously they're not going to pay for a service they don't need if it's raining.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But there are a lot of people that are using potable water to inigate.
MR. GRAMATGES: That's very true.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: That would use it all ycar round. So why aren't wc hooking them
up?
(Mr. Harrison cntered the room.)
MR. GRAMATGES: Well, because when the reclaimed water is availablc -- when the demand for
reclaimed water is there, we don't have enough reclaimed water to give to all the customers who want it.
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COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So essentially what's happening is the customers who could use it
who are on potable water who would go off of that, if they had the opportunity, are not able to access it
because you have larger customers that use it on demand. And then when they're off demand, there's a
surplus.
MR. GRAMATGES: Let me say it this way. The demand for reclaimed water is higher during the
dry season because the need for irrigation is higher.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Right.
MR. GRAMATGES: During the dry season all of the reclaimed water we produce is distributed.
All of it. We don't have anything left.
The only exception is if~ by any chance, which does not happen very frequently, it doesn't meet the
specifications and we have to dispose of it. But, like I said, that's very rare.
So whenever there is -- the dry season happens, all of the reclaimed water is available.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Right.
MR. GRAMATGES: During the rainy season nobody wants it because it's raining and you don't
have to pay for the rain. So that's the dilemma.
When there is a need for it, we use all that is available.' When there's no need for it, there's nothing
we can do with it but deep inject it.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: When you say you have to get rid of it, what do you do to get rid of
it?
MR. GRAMATGES: We deep inject that reclaimed water, yes. We have no way to store it.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I think it would be nice to see what it would take to get more
people on reclaimed water. But what you're saying is you don't have any more capacity for more --
MR. GRAMATGES: We don't.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: -- in the dry season.
MR. GRAMATGES: We don't.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Anybody else have any questions?
I think that whole issue of getting more people on to reclaimed water is a big one. I don't know.
What are the other possibilities?
I mean, what would you have to do? I mean, obviously ASR you just told us is not viable. What are
the other storage options?
MR. GRAMATGES: Well, once again, ASRs are the n financially the best way to store water.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Right. But if we --
MR. GRAMATGES: But obviously until we resolve the technical issue of the arsenic, that option,
which we're still exploring, we're still working very hard at making it work, but it won't work for awhile.
The other options would be aboveground storage or storage ponds. And we do have a few of those.
Unfortunately, those require a large amount of real estate.
I mean, we're talking about millions upon millions of gallons that we would have to store in order
for this to be feasible. And that requires a lot of real estate. And, as you well know, even though it's cheaper
now, real estate is still very expensive in Collier County. So it's not very practical -- financially practical for
us to pursue those options.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: So somebody needs to come up with a better mousetrap here in order
to make this viable.
Okay. Any other questions on the sewer district water system?
(No response.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Then I'll take a motion from the productivity committee.
Pa~e 56
16 I 1 A")ctober 22, 2008
MR. BA YTOS: We move approval.
MS. DOWNS: Second.
MR. BA YTOS: All in favor?
MS. DOWNS: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Aye.
MR. HARRISON: Ayc.
MR. FEE: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: So that was unanimous from the productivity committee. And there
are four members here.
And from the PI arming Commission.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Move to forward the recommendation of approval the 2008 AUIR
wastewater system as shown on the summary [orm.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Second.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Second by Mr. Vigliotti.
All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Ayc.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And opposed?
(No response.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: None are opposed.
And just as a note to clear up something for the County Attorney, all the prior motions that Cherie
had taken, they were all unanimous. And if you would just note that for her, I would appreciate it. Thank
you.
Okay. Phil, you're still up.
MR. GRAMATGES: Yes, ma'am. Solid waste is next.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And because Mr. Murray brought this up to me, and he is absolutely
right, there are no speakers out here in the audience. So there's nobody to speak to us about these issues.
So go ahead, Phil.
MR. GRAMATGES: Actually, the situation with solid waste is similar to the situation with potable
water and wastewater. There is really nothing new this year on the AUIR.
So if you have any questions, I'm ready to answer.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I do, Phil. And while I recognize it's not new this year, some year
we certainly should be doing it, I tell you what.
A while back I made a visit to the landfill, then I made a visit to the water plant. And it occurred to
me we have methane that we're llashing, getting rid of. Why can't we take and use some of that, ifnot all of
it, to generate what we need to take care of the water plant?
And Mr. Mattausch said, well, that's certainly possible. In fact, we're working on that. We're
thinking about that.
Now, that was several years ago. And the biggest concern there was the implications to FPL
because that would be a significant reduction to FPL's revenue stream and certainly a considerable benefit
to us.
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So I recognize the implications of it. But at what point have -- has your department given
consideration to initiating a capital program to do this? Because I think it's a lot of money that we could
save.
MR. GRAMATGES: Well, Commissioner, I'm glad that you asked that question.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Thank you.
MR. GRAMATGES: Because this very year we are going to be presenting a proposal to the Board
to go on with a project to recover that gas to generate electricity or generate steam or use that gas in order to
take advantage of the energy that it has. And this is a project that we, of course, are doing with -- in
conjunction with Waste Management, who manages the landfill for liS.
And we'll be proceeding -- I wish I could tell you exactly when it will be presented to the Board.
But it is at this point in time scheduled to be presented this year.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: 200S?
MR. GRAMATGES: 200S, yes. 2009 fiscal year.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay. That's terrific.
MR. GRAMATGES: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Terrific. We're making progress.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Good job, Mr. Murray.
Anybody else have any questions?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Did you solve the problems with FPL; are they going to get some
lines down there to take their power?
MR. GRAMATGES: I don't know that we've gone that far, but in the past FPL had been receptive
to this kind of approach. In lact, I think that there is probably some legal reasons why they need to accept it,
as well.
I know that that's true for -- that's true for New England where I come from where they had to
accept whatever power was provided by alternative means. And, once again, I don't know if that's the case
with Florida.
But when you think about it, this is going to be a very small percentage of the overall energy that we
buy from FPL. We are FPL's largest customer in Collier County. And FPL is not going to, in my opinion,
look negatively at something like this. I think it's a step in the right direction.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Well, I think they're looking at the value of that energy, plus the
line extensions that they've got to do to accept the electricity.
MR. GRAMATGES: I can't commcnt on that.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Okay. And I have one other question. You were proposing a
recycling facility just north of the current -- I don't want to call it a dump. What do you call the --
MR. GRAMATGES: Landfill, sir.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Landfill.
MR. GRAMATGES: Yes, weare.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: And how's that coming ahead?
MR. GRAMATGES: Well, this is in the planning stage right now. I am not sure when we're going
to go to the Board with it. I know that there is a schedule for that.
Unfortunately, I'm not prepared to tell you when because those schedules are flexible depending on,
you know, how the design goes and so on. But we're very serious about that. We're very serious about that
expansion. We think it's going to be a very positive step for us to take.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: What year do you think that will happen?
MR. GRAMATGES: This is something that will probably take several years to design and then a
couple of years to implcment. So I would say within the next five years we should see something on this
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area.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Any other questions?
Anything from the productivity committee?
(No response.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Then l'1I entertain motions.
Productivity committee.
MR. BA YTOS: So moved.
MR. FEE: Second.
MR. BA YTOS: All in favor?
MS. DOWNS: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Aye.
MR. HARRISON: Aye.
MR. FEE: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Unanimous.
And CCpc.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I'll do it. Move to forward with a recommendation of approval the
200S AUIR for solid waste and landfill capacity as delineated in the swrunary form.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Second.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: It was unanimous. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Phil, the only other comment. If you can't -- if you're not going to
hook up the methane and stuff: see if you can move the tlame closer to 75 so we can appreciate it better. It
is always fun to look down and see this. Maybe a little sculpture contest for the stack.
MR. GRAMATGES: l'1I take that recommendation to my superiors. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: It's not that important.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you, Phil.
MR. GRAMATGES: Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Next up is Barry Williams with parks and rec.
MR. WILLIAMS: Good afternoon, Commissioners, productivity committee members. I appreciate
having this opportunity right after lunch to talk to you about parks.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Before you take your nap.
MR. WILLIAMS: That's right.
Just to summarize what you have in your packet, the projections for community and regional
parklands for the next five years. And, as you know, we in parks measure inventory based on acrcage per
thousand. And for community parks that's 1.2 acres per thousand and for regional parks, 2.9.
Both, as you can see in the packet, our community and regional parks indicate a surplus for the
five-year window that we're describing. And just to highlight some of the notable increases during this time,
there's a 47-acre reduction in community parkland that we anticipate in providing those acreages to
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transportation in the year indicated.
We also this April, 2009, we understand, the stormwater transportation project that you heard about,
freedom Park, that will be coming into the parks inventory. Parks and rec will be maintaining 25 and some
change acreage there. So that's one thing I wanted to identifY.
Big Corkscrew Island Regional Park is a 65-acre parcel off of Everglades Boulevard. As you're
probably aware, that project -- there's a question about that project. We're doing it in conjunction with
public utilities. The utility that would be built there, after they've laid the infrastructure for that particular
project, would be an opportunity for us to come in and build our park.
We're dependent on that project. We can't really go forward with that project until public utilities
maintains that process.
The last thing I'll mention to you is just an A TV park. And if you notice in the regional parklands,
we have a 625-acre parcel. And that's kind of an anomaly of sorts. That particular parcel -- we anticipate it
coming during that period of time; however, there's still some questions about that parcel.
The South Florida Water Management District and the Board of County Commissioners are still
working through details related to that parccl.
With that, I just wanted to stop and entertain any questions that you might have about what we've
provided you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Vigliotti first.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I know at this time parks and rec doesn't take into consideration
any parks that are in developments. For instance, PUDs have parks, a lot of other major developments. Why
don't we include those?
They're available to the public. The people in those either PUDs or facilities use it. Why don't we
use those figures in our calculations?
MR. WILLIAMS: That's a question that's been asked, I understand, in the last couple years. We've
actually sought an opinion from DCA.
The parks have to be in the control of the Board of County Commissioners through parks and rec to
be counted as part of the inventory is our understanding.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Wait a minute. Before you go further on that.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, ma'am.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: While I was looking at your backup information, that's apparently
not true for Lee County. Why would -- they count Federal and State parks in their inventory. So why would
it be different for us?
MR. WILLIAMS: I can't explain Lee County's data.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Can you, at any point, go back to DCA?
MR. WILLIAMS: Absolutely, absolutely. We could certainly inquire with them and ask them that
question. We don't want to necessarily bring Lee County into the discussion with them, but we can certainly
ask for our own purposes about Collier County and whcther that can be includcd.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Schmitt had a comment.
MR. SCHMITT: Yeah. And not from -- for various perspectives, and if you would explain,
basically our AUIR does regional parks and community parks. Those were -- would be more of what would
be what the -- it wouldn't be deemed a community park if they were inside of a PUD. They would--
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, it's a good point Mr. Schmitt makes. We basically characterize three types
of parks; community, regional and neighborhood parks.
MR. SCHMITT: Neighborhood park.
MR. WILLIAMS: The neighborhood park is not included as part of the inventory.
MR. SCHMITT: Now that said -- because I was looking for the word neighborhood. With that said,
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1 ~ctober 22, 2008
the Board -- or you could certainly recommend a level of service change based on the data.
And we have that data analysis that was provided of the number of whatever throughout the
community. Number of bocce courts, bocce ball or whatever they call it, basketball to tennis courts. You
know, we went through that a couple of years ago. And that certainly is something you can use to make a
recommendation if you want to reduce the level of service.
But to understand, if you reduce the level of service, then it has an impact on impact fees, as well.
That it could have an impact on impact fees. And, Amy, you could cover that.
Thank you, Amy. I know you wanted to speak.
MS. PATTERSON: Hello. Amy Patterson, for the record again. Regarding the level of service,
there's a level of service established in your impact fee study that is your achieved level of service, meaning
what we have today. And generally for our facilitics, either the level of service matches that in the impact
fee study or exceeds it as our adopted level of service.
Should you choose to adopt a level of service that goes below the achieved level of service, then the
impact fee would have to be reevaluated. Because at no time can you charge growth what the other
taxpayers have not provided. And so that would be putting an inordinate burden onto growth and would
require the reassessment of the impact fee study. Meaning to bring the impact fee down would essentially
be the result of a lowering of the level of service or it could be, depending on the study.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: So the impact fee would be lower; it would be reduced?
MS. PATTERSON: It could be likely.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Okay.
MS. PATTERSON: A downward adjustment of the level of service would likely have a downward
adjustment on the impact fees.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I'd like to discuss the recommendation with the other Board
members to see what they think.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Let's get all the questions out of the way first, Bob, and then we'll go
back to it.
Mr. Wolfley was next.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: The level of service, you're referring to the 1.2 acres per thousand?
MS. PATTERSON: What we would have to -- that is not the level of service that's provided by the
impact fee study. That is the level of service that we're referring to. So we would have to do an analysis of
how that level of service relates to the impact fee level of service and then how that should be adjusted
based on the adjustment to the adopted level of service. But, yes, that's the one we're talking about.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Yeah, I got that one. What you're trying to say is that -- in a
backward way that 1.2 is adjusted to affect the real number in the thing? In other words, it could be I acre
per thousand or 1.4?
MS. PATTERSON: The adopted level of service could go to whatever the Board deemed
appropriate and then the impact fee calculation would have to be adjusted accordingly.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Forget the Board for that because they're the last ones to see it, or
sort of. But, I mean, it's you. Is that how you calculate it?
How do you do this level of service here? I mean, how do you come up with that?
MS. PATTERSON: For impact fees or for thc n
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Yes.
MS. PATTERSON: For impact fees is -- depending on the facility, it's either the square footage per
population or the number of acres per population. We also have the cost pcr acre. And so all of those go into
the level of service established by the impact lee.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Right. Ifwe determined that cost has come down now.
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MS. PATTERSON: Uh-huh.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: All right. Somebody else.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahead, Bob.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Because that was the question I was going to raise. We've used
$230,000. And I know Tindale has done the study; is that right? He continues to do that.
MS. PATTERSON: Well, Dunkin did the last park study. Tindale is in the process of updating the
parks study.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Right. Now, does he get into the -- he doesn't give us the appraised
value in a dollar amolUlt, does he?
MS. PATTERSON: He is validating the--
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: He validates that, as well?
MS. PATTERSON: He is validating it.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And, of course, it's lagging now. In other words, we're going
forward or attempting to go forward with last year's numbers. When will we have a potential correction?
Because we don't think the $230,000 -- I remember this very well, this process we went through,
which became essentially circular. We couldn't even get to an answer that would satisfy anybody. It seemed
like we were all locked into this process.
MS. PATTERSON: Right.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Sooner or later we have to break through this because we definitely
have a change. And while a great effort was made to show the $230,000 was a valid number, I dare us to
prove that today. So what are wc going to do or are we going to do anything about looking at this number?
MS. PATTERSON: The number is being looked at. And, lUlfortunately, again, thcre's still not data
to support bringing that number down. And a lot has to do with the types oflands that they're acquiring and
the area that they're acquiring them in, as well as the land that they've acquired in the past and the value of
that land.
It doesn't mean that something can't be done about it. If the Board elected to assign a different value,
they could do that. They could do that, again, through the level of service.
They could also elect just to bring the parks impact fee down if that's -- if that's the ultimate goal. Is
it a question of wanting the level of service to be lower or a question that you want the parks impact fees
reduced? And so, I guess, that's kind of where the question lies.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: I guess the real question is: What is the reality?
(Mr. Swaja entered the room.)
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Because we're dealing with projections. We're dealing with
probabilities. We're dealing with hearsay sometimes it seems. But the reality is what we're seeking.
And I recognize clearly that your -- all of the staff are constrained by the facts they have to deal
with. But at some point the commlUlity needs to know that the staff is as interested as the citizens in coming
up to a more realistic figure. They see the tide going down, the ships are going arolUld, they don't want to
have the perception that the government ships are sitting up here.
MS. PATTERSON: I lUlderstand.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: So if -- and I can tell you that, you know, prices are falling all over
the place; commercial, residential. How is it plausible that we can still attribute the same dollar figure to
something that we see coming down?
MS. PATTERSON: This is probably a conversation that we're going to have in each one of the
category "B" facilities. I realize we're still in the As, but when we get to the Bs it's going to be the same
conversation that -- the correction on the downside is as slow as the correction was on the upside, as costs
were escalating faster than we could capture them. There's just not an instantaneous answer to that.
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" · . cto er 22, 2008
And we can restudy the impact fees as often as the Board directs us to. If it's once every three or
every two years or every year, if there is a lot of volatility, that can be done. And, like I said, we're in a full
study right now of the parks impact fee. We're to the point of near completion, 75 percent complete.
So ifthere is some recommendations that are going to come out of this committee that are going to
directly affect that study, meaning level of service or some direction on cost per acre that need to be
forwarded to the Board and will affect the study, rather than getting all the way through the study and
starting all over again that's probably what we need to look at.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, of course, we'd have to know what the parameters of the
study are in order to know whether they're insulting it. So -- and I'm sure I even want to go there. Maybe
you can help us all by making us aware of -- you said 75 percent you believe.
What's your expectation for the date of finish?
MS. PATTERSON: I would say probably within the next month to month and a half we'll be
complete.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And, Mr. Bosi, when is it that this has to go to DCA?
MR. BOSI: Thc AUIR is a local document. Thc DCA does not see this document.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Oh, okay. So there's no -- that's right. No work, nothing involved
with that.
MR. SCHMITT: Correspondence.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: So we have time. So, in other words, we have the opportunity. The
Commission could at a regular meeting have that on an agenda item and they could modifY it.
MS. PATTERSON: They could. And, again, the recommendations coming out of that impact fee
study do not have to be accepted by the Board. They can adopt any -- the study will recommend the
maximum legal limit of the impact fees that can be imposed by the Board of County Commissioners. 1bey
can elect to adopt them at 50 percent or 75 percent or whatever percentage that they deem to be the
appropriate an10unt.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I hear you. But in reading Mr. Bosi's or whomever the preamble,
there's a lot of indicators in here that we're pretty much stuck the way we are. That's the basis for my
question, I guess.
Is it seems like -- and I remember this now year after year. We seem to be always stuck that we can't
ehange it because we're always waiting f()r something to happen. And then the next year we're still waiting
for something to happen.
And I'm not trying to insult anybody or upset anybody, but I really believe that we have to find a
way to be more effective. As I said, the boats are going down and it does look like some of them are sitting
up here on some kind of special tide. And I'll stop with that.
I think you've tried to answer my question. Thank you.
MR. COHEN: Mr. Murray, I think it probably would be appropriate to clarifY one thing. The AUIR
is not a document that's provided to DCA, but the recommendations that you do make pertaining to the
AUIR get transferred into this CIE, which you'll see forthcoming probably in December. And that's with the
category "A" facilities that are in the AUIR.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Right.
MR. COHEN: And, also, if there is a change that would be made with respect to parks and
recreation levels of service, usually therc needs to be supporting data and analysis to go along with that. For
example, you know, providing that inventory that's available in the PUDs would be something to justifY a
rcduction in the level of service.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Schiffer and then Mr. Vigliotti.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Amy, the only level of service we use acreage -- because in the
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past we've had different kinds oflike water access, hard court, stufllike that. We're still using that, correct?
MS. PATTERSON: The level of service is being measured is the acres that's listed in the AUIR.
Now, this actually is probably more of a question for Barry of how they're doing the other facilities.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well,just to mention -- and this carne up I know last year about the question of
how we measure. And we surveyed the counties in thc state about how they measure, as well. So it's a fairly
accepted standard to determine level of servicc.
So I think of the counties that we surveyed -- and we surveyed 45 out of the 67. All 45 used acreage
for that. So I'm not sure if that answered your question, but--
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Well, I mean, but we do have level of service requirements, don't
we, for differcnt typcs offacilities? Likc in the past we've had water access, hard courts.
Michael.
MR. BOSI: Last year during the AUIR process the Board of County Commissioners directed the
staff to no longer utilizc the facility's value as a level of service standard. And based upon that, there is
guidelines that have been adopted by the Board of County Commissioners for the number of hard courts,
the number of beach -- water access points.
But they are no longer regulatory, binding level of service standards, but yet they're a guideline that
the County will utilize to dctermine how well they're doing. And that's provided for within the back of your
AUIR book, I believe.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Starting on 237.
MR. BOSI: Yes.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So if we don't use facilities, then I think it would be extremely
difficult to credit private development. I mean, because you're going to be crediting acreage. And
essentially the only thing that would make sense is if you did have requirements by facilities that the
residents -- the population of that thing may be excluded from the demand.
But in this case if it's pure acreage, there's absolutely no way I think you can isolate acreage in a
PUD.
MR. BOSI: And I believe the discussion at the very beginning of this proceedings was, you know,
the nonrecognition of the privately-held recrcation facilities in PUDs and the neighborhood park facilities.
And as Mr. Cohen had suggested, the existcnce and the inventory of those facilities could be utilized to
justity to the DCA.
Any recommendation for lowering of the level of service for community or regional parks or both,
the recognition of not only the neighborhood park facilities that are behind the PUD, but also the existence
of the State and Federal parklands that are available to Collier County residents. All of those can be utilized
as a justification to DCA as to why the factors were utilizcd to lower the level of service for any ofthe park
facilities.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Yeah. I think if you look at the back report, you will see where they
had -- they had done on page 241 -- there's an inventory of -- they did go through and try to do an inventory
of what was available in the private sector in these PUDs.
A couple of things just to comment about that is it says here that you don't think it's advisable to be
including these facilities because they could change ovcr time. Well, I would say to you that that's not really
a valid argument because we do our AUIR cvcry year. So we have a chance to take into account any
changes that might happen within a PUD.
Thc other thing is that when you talk about whether or not we have control or not, we do have
control over PUDs. You know, there is a controlling factor by Collicr County for these PUDs. So there is --
you know, that old rational nexus thing is back again. But I think you can make that determination.
And thcn when you get to facilities like, for example, Delnor- Wiggins State Park there is absolutely
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no reason in the world not to be counting those acres. They are a primc focus of the amenity we provide to
this County. And not to include them is -- I think, as I said last year, is, you know, is disingenuine.
MR. WILLIAMS: Like I say, we could seek clarification on that issuc and certainly could give you
back our response. And, you know, I know that wc did -- last year we sought that clarification. And our
understanding at the time was that we could not count the State facilitics.
I can't describe to you why Lee County is able to and we can't though. So I do need to provide that
clarification for you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Again, we had given a list of possibilities for that. And not going so
far out of whack that we are counting land that nobody can get to or it's all a panther habitat and nobody can
have --
MR. WILLIAMS: The Evcrglades.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: -- any recreation, you know, ability on it. Those were not the kind of
things that we listed last year.
And, again, just to go back to the unit cost. We did talk last year specifically about reducing that
unit cost. And I'm glad to hear that there is -- a study is being done because we do want answers to that.
On page 242 of your report it says here that -- I'm looking at paragraph 2, the bold paragraph in the
center of the page. Can you give me examples of where it doesn't work?
MR. WILLIAMS: I'm at a disadvantage. I don't have page 242 in front of me. And perhaps I could
ask Mr. Bosi to help mc with that.
MR. BOSI: Intcrlocal agreements.
MR. WILLIAMS: And, if you could,just to clarifY, your question is?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: The ccntcr paragraph.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: In bold.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: It's talking about your reasons for not -- let me just --
MR. WILLIAMS: Not including the municipality's parks?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Right. I'm sorry. Yeah. Owned and operated by the municipalities in
the inventory. But where doesn't this work?
I mean, the whole premise is that there's some problem with this.
MR. WILLIAMS: Again, to clarifY, our understanding for us to count within the inventory is that
we have to have control of the property. And, I guess, that's a question that needs further clarification. In
thcse circumstances where municipalities have parkland wherc therc's not an interlocal agreement of some
sort that shows that control, we're not able to count it into the inventory.
Now, your specific qucstion about whcre are cases where it does not work, I'm not sure I understand
exactly.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Well, the implication is if there's a park in the City of Naples that
you don't particularly have a -- an interlocal agreement with, then it's not valid for us to count that as a park.
MR. WILLIAMS: In some exceptions. The regional parks -- those with the designation of regional
parks we do count as part of our AUIR. And the premise is certainly a regional park suggests that you have
people from the unincorporated areas using the park itself
So the community neighborhood parks aren't counted. Neighborhood parks aren't counted, period.
Community parks only with an interlocal agreement that shows somc relationship between the county and
the municipality would that be counted in the AUIR.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Anyway, are there other questions here?
Anybody on the productivity committee?
Mr.Fce.
MR. FEE: Yes. I wanted to ask on page 77, regional parkland acres, 2.9 acres per thousand
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population. Am I correct here it says a deficiency up until the year 2012?
And at that point you would acquire 629 acres through a South Florida Water Management
commitment, ATV park?
MR. WILLIAMS: That is correct. In the 625 acres, thc A TV park, again, that's -- that's in
negotiation with South Florida Water Management. We're anticipating -- there are a couple of properties
that have been discussed about the A TV park, most notably a 625-acre parcel near Lake Trafford.
There's some environmental issues with that property. As you know, the dredging from Lake
Trafford is going onto that property. So there's some things that have to occur before that property could
even be considered for us to do the things to mold it to be a park. So we're looking at thc cnd of the
five-year window ofthat being a possibility.
So we would be in a deficit up until that point.
MR. FEE: And we would have some kind of interlocal agreement with SFWMD at that point?
MR. WILLIAMS: That would be -- the ownership of that property would be transferred to the
County and operated as an A TV park.
MR. FEE: And my last question is: Can we actually run a deficit and still approve the AUIR?
MR. WILLIAMS: I would defer to comprehcnsive planning for that.
MR. COHEN: The answer to your question is yes. For example, with the regional park, obviously
it's bascd on so many acres per thousand people. You wouldn't -- you're going to run a deficit because
you're not going to just go out and build a new regional park when you just go over that one figure, you
know, that allows you to make sure that you have at least one.
You rcach a certain point in time where it's neccssary to go on out and find other regional parkland.
It's kind oflike you wouldn't, you know, build a parking lot to accommodate your Christmas crowds at a
mall. You're going to build smaller.
This is a matter of timing more than anything. And usually what ends up happening is you have
growth of population in a certain arca and the demand grows as such and you go ahead and you build that
regional park. You're going to obviously trip the need for community parks a lot sooner than you are going
to do for regional parks.
MR. FEE: This ATV park has been on the table for quite a few years and you've not been able to
solidify that. What makes you convinced that we will?
And if we did not, is there something else in the future that would replace and bring us into
compliance? Is there other parkland that --
MR. WILLIAMS: There are some projects that are out there. The Vanderbilt Beach Extension,
there's a -- Big Cypress DRI is in the works. And there's some potential there for additional parkland. So
there are some other opportunities that exist in the future if that didn't come to be.
MR. FEE: Okay.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Harrison.
MR. HARRISON: As I recall, in our review last year we talked about the efficacy of this 1.2 and
2.9 acres per thousand and asked numerous questions about what is the capacity of our parks and what is
the utilization of our parks in operational terms. I'm glad to see they've inserted now between pages 85 and
95 some operational data. But maybe you could give us the highlights of that.
I do notice that, tor example, maybe we no longcr have a boat ramp problem. But boat ramp usage
seems to be down. And if I'm reading it right, so is beach use down.
I mean, we're talking about land here as if this is the key to providing recreational opportunities. But
the operational data suggests that, you know, maybe we're not using it today as much as we did a year or
two ago.
MR. WILLIAMS: I'd be happy to provide the highlights, if that's the panel's wish. I can tell you
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there are a couple of things that have our attention, the beach data in particular.
The numbers and what we are providing -- we're actually doing an audit of our numbers and how
we've calculated them. That concerncd us a great dcal and the beach in particular. We've had some internal
discussions about that.
The 2005/2006 ycars werc kind of peak years. A lot of people down. But the decrease that we're
seeing just doesn't jive with some ofthe other information that we have. In particular TDC funding fairly--
being fairly high or increased from previous years.
So we got some head scratching on that particular item. And Ijust wanted to make that point. So we
do want to audit that number and make sure that we've done due diligence in collecting that data.
The boat ramp, the launches, we do feel that that seems to be consistent with the trend. The high
cost of gasoline, fuel in particular. Anecdotally, we've seen the decrease in the number of people that are
using the boat ramps. We don't see as many people on the water. So that -- that number has a good feel for
it.
I do want to mention a couple of others, if I may. And certainly if you havc questions about the data,
anything that you see, I'm happy t providc it.
The Sun and Fun Lagoon is certainly an area that we'rc looking at and looking at what attendance
patterns we might see at that particular facility. Ifyou'rc familiar with the Sun and Fun, it opened in 2006.
The first year, which was a partial year that we were open, we had about 105,000 visitors. The next
year where we were open a full fiscal year, we're at about 175,000. We're anticipating -- and we don't have
that included in your numbers, but we're looking at about 165,000 this past year. So we're seeing a pattern
of use of that facility, which is important for us to know.
And as you're aware, the Sun and Fun Lagoon, in terms of the expense to revenue, what we have
seen over the last two and a half years of operation, the first full year of operating we pretty much came
close to break even. We were right, I think, $85,000 less than what our cxpensc was. And our goal with that
facility is for it to be as close to break even as possible. So wc'vc bcen successful with that. And with the
trends that we're seeing, in particular with the attendance, you know, it helps us in our planning for future
budget years.
The last thing I would mention to you about -- in the operations data is that we do and have begun
tracking field use data. And there are a couple of incomplete charts that we have in therc. We had some
changes in how we were collecting data. And we see that this operational data will become more consistent
in how we're collecting it.
I will tell you I attended a conference, I guess, last year for best practices regarding field utilization.
And we all had a good laugh at the best practice being 1,000 hours per field. That's just not very practical
for us.
And you can see by some of the data that many of our fields are overused. So it's a constant battle
between us of maintaining the fields, and the importance of that. You know, the money that you spend to
maintain a field -- and you've heard Nick talk about roadways.
Athletic fields have the same consideration for maintenance costs. So we're constantly balancing the
need for the community to use the fields with the maintenance costs associated with it.
But, again, if there are other questions that you might have about the opcrational data, certainly I'd
be happy to answer them.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahead, Mr. Harrison.
MR. HARRISON: I'm glad you brought that up. Because as I recall from last year, the only area of
constraint that we seem to have in the entire budget was the utilization of baseball and soccer fields. That's
the only place where the demand seems to exceed supply; is that correct?
MR. WILLIAMS: I would agree with that statemcnt. There are pockets where we don't have that
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issue, but, in general, I would agree with that.
MR. HARRISON: Okay.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And what are we doing to solve that?
MR. WILLIAMS: I appreciate that question. I think probably thc most innovative thing that we're
able to do is we work very closely with the School Board. And the School Board, as they develop new
facilities, they also have the nced for green space and -- opcn grccn space.
We work with them very closely to dcsign facilities that thcy'rc building that lend themselvcs for
public use. And we had a number of those examplcs this past year that wc'vc added acreagc. Palmctto
Elemcntary, as well as Eden Elementary in Immokalee.
W c have interlocal agreemcnts with the School Board wherc the school uses the property during the
day for thcir use and then it becomcs available in thc cvcning and wcekcnds for the public use. So that's
been a very good arrangemcnt for us.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Any other questions?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I have onc.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Actually, I just have a couplc more questions and thcn --
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Go ahcad.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: If you go to pagc n.ljust had a couple of things. First is a commcnt
on, number one, the Frccdom Park. Because this is one where we got two for one because we'rc gctting
water quality and wc're getting a good park out of it. So that's turncd out to be a very good thing.
I guess wc've bcat the A TV park to death. So the Pcpper Ranch. I thought that was a Conscrvation
Collier thing and not a parks and rcc, but I'm n
MR. WILLIAMS: We havc talkcd to Conservation Collier. And, of coursc, Pepper Ranch is still up
for consideration. It's not a done deal.
But wc'vc becn in conversation with Conservation Collier about offering somc rccreational usc on
the property, much in the way of trails, pathways, that typc of thing. And thc idea is that parks and rec
would maintain thosc trail-ways. And so that could be counted as part of our invcntory. So that's our
thinking with that.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: What's the interagency partncrship Islcs of Capri?
MR. WILLIAMS: If! could, may I ask Ms. Ramsey to talk to that? That may be onc that I think she
could better cxplain, so --
MS. RAMSEY: For the record, Marla Ramsey, public services administrator. If you're familiar with
the corncr of 951 and thc road going down to Islc of Capri, there's about a 9-acre parcel thcre that the
Rookcry Bay has bccn working to try and secure funds to put in a boardwalk, canoc/kayak launch arca. And
we'vc bcen in convcrsations ofl' and on for a numbcr years about utilizing that for thc public good and
partnering with them to make that happen.
They havc a moncy whoa, wc havc a money whoa. So we'vc pushcd it out a little bit farther into thc
plan. But it's about 9 acrcs that could be used for kayaking and canoeing.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I havc a qucstion.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Certainly.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Barry, you tickled my fancy with something there. You wcre saying
that -- and I'm not clcar, so you havc to tcll me.
Ifthc Pcpper Ranch would bc acquired through the Conservation Collier, yet you would count it in
your invcntory. Is that -- how docs that work?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Lct mc ask Ms. Ramsey about that, too.
MS. RAMSEY: Again, Marla Ramsey. In talking with Alex Sulecki with the Conservation Collier
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and one of the -- there's a couple of areas of interest in that particular project to do some outside of the box
kind ofrecreational elements, things like camping, places to stage that, interpretive area. And so there's a
section right up against the lake that has the homestead on it, which is cleared and has a house or a couple
of houses and whatnot.
And the thought was that you would use that as a tmilhead, intcrpretive area, et cetem. And that way
you would then do all your parking, all your impact into that particular area. That's about 50 acres in there
that could be utilized for recreational purposes. And at some point in time, then -- if fimds become
available, we would probably do some kind oftmnsfer of tUn ding at some point.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Funding, not ownership?
MS. RAMSEY: Well, it's ovmed by Collier County. And if we do the fimding, it would become a
parks and rec facility.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I appreciate that. I'm not going to try to tear it apart in any way, but
I just want to understand. You're keeping it on your records and they'rc kccping it on their records, but
obviously you like size, that's why I said, you know, ownership.
MS. RAMSEY: And, again, you know, that's out so far yet that --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And that's not meaningful?
MS. RAMSEY: It's still in the planning stages, let's put it that way. But we think it's viable to
provide some kind of trailhead at that location with some kind ofrecrcational, whether it's camping or
group camping or tent camping or whatever it might be at that --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I like that because that would be the feed the alligators program
right over there.
MS. RAMSEY: Well, it has direct access to the lake as well from the north side. And we have a
small segment down where Ann Olesky Park is that you can get a boat mmp into, but this would also come
up against it on the north side of the lake itself. So it has somc viability for recreational purposes.
There's also -- you know, wc work with Conservation Collier to help with their trails in some of the
other locations that they have. So sometimes we tmde our services for some invcntory elements too. So
there's a number of different ways.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: I appreciate that. I guess what I was trying to understand is whether
or not you were going to come up with some money, whether they were going to acquire it and you were
going to be -- act as though you were a lessee or n I realize it's all Collier County, but evcrybody has
separate books.
MS. RAMSEY: Yeah. Exactly.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I was trying to figure out where that was going to be in the capital
and how that was going to work. And that's interesting.
MS. RAMSEY: It could be n it could go three different ways probably depending -- when we work
forward as far as part of their management plan. You know, who would be responsible for management.
There might be some kind of opportunity there, as well.
So it's not -- it's not a for-sure yet and I don't have any cash to do that. Thcre is no cash for me to
help hcr to acquire it at this point in time, so it would have to be futuristic. And as you see in the inventory,
it's out quite some time.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay. Wish list.
MS. RAMSEY: Wish list. Well, wish list that I think could happen, okay, not just, you know, pie in
the sky.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay. Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Any other questions?
Ms. Downs.
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MS. DOWNS: Because it's my first time, and forgive me, you've probably covered this before. It
looks like your measurement of what you need for parks is based on per acre per thousand per population.
And you don't break it down per component, but you used to, right?
It used to be broken down for each facility and now you don't measure it that way?
MR. WILLIAMS: No. It's always been per acre. 1,000 per acre. And that's the accepted standard for
parks.
MS. DOWNS: What's confusing for me is why you're not taking out the need trom private
communities who have bocce ball and swimming pools and -- and I suspect you've covered this before.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Several times.
MS. DOWNS: Well, I said bear with me.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Not at all.
MS. DOWNS: Why are they not -- if you're using a population count, why can't you have a
weighted number to the population of people who live in private communities that have their own facilities?
I'm not saying leave them out ofthe population count. But instead of one, maybe they count as .S5.
MS. RAMSEY: Let me help, first of all, with your first question. Your first question was: Do we
designate by facility?
We have never done that. We'vc always done it by cost of so much per person, per population. So I
think it was $240 offacility worth, nevcr by independent, you know, ball field, et cetera. We'vc never done
it as that element.
It's been one big pot of money. These are the facilities. This is what they're worth per population.
And then we divide that out and it comes out to like $240 per.
So that wasn't getting us anywhere because in 2005, as you know, the prices of construction went
out ofthe roof. And so I was getting, you know, a 5,000 square foot building for what we would normally
have gotten a 10,000 square foot building. So the nexus to what was the benefit to the public just wasn't
there. And no one else was doing it in the State.
What we have now is a guideline. And let me talk a little bit about what is inside a PUD. The only
thing inside a PUD recreationally, for the most part, is a clubhouse with a pool.
They don't have ball fields. They don't have, you know, athletic facilities. They might have a
basketball court. Usually not.
So the facilities that we provide and count in our inventory as guidelines that go into our community
and regional parks are larger in nature. Athletic fields, beaches, boat ramps, et cetera.
So what we're finding is you could count those in some convoluted way. You know, there's 389
PUDs out there. And to try and capture all that information is daunting in and of itself. But most of them
don't even have playgrounds for their children.
So it's not really the same types of facilities that we are currently providing. And I'll give you an
example in the guideline. Tennis courts. We might have one tennis court per 10,000 or whatever it comes
out to be.
If I add the tennis courts into my inventory, then my level of service, as it stands today, might be 1
to 4,000. Did that change my level of service? I'm only going to bid tennis courts when I have a delta or a
waiting list or a need in the community. I don't just build a tennis court because it says I put 10,000 people
into my community I now need a tennis court.
Same with shuffleboard or bocce ball. Things change, trends change. We don't build anymore
shuffleboard. I haven't in the ten years I've been here. But we've been building bocce ball courts because
that's the new trend.
And so we look at it a little bit differently than just that there's that many people in there and all of
their recreational needs are being accomplished inside that facility. And we don't believe that's true.
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October 22, 2008
MS. DOWNS: So you're not purchasing the land for tennis courts. Let's stick with that one
component.
MS. RAMSEY: Maybe not. See, North Collier Regional Park doesn't have any tennis courts in it at
all. We didn't build any there.
Manatee, which is on the books, has got, I think, four plarmcd. Two to be built in the first phase, two
more to come on later.
Eagle Lakes was not built with tennis courts, but was brought on when the need arised, which we
just accomplished about last year. So, you know, in a 60-acre facility we might have two or four tennis
courts.
MS. DOWNS: I'm not happy. I'm usually happy. It seems like it's a much more daunting number to
break it down into each facility. But when you have -- just looking at this chart that you've provided, you
have almost 600 hard surface you're calling them, bocce ball courts, swimming, whatever, tennis courts,
recreational facilities, you have four or live times as many in the private scctor as you do in the public
sector.
So it amazes me that that's not counted, taken away from the future needs of the County. And more
and more communities are being built with more and more facilities within their communities.
MS. RAMSEY: It's just the opposite of what youjust said. We definitely have taken it into
consideration. That's why we're not building them.
MS. DOWNS: So you've changed your need per thousand population?
MS. RAMSEY: No. We don't -- these are guidelincs. We use these as guidelines. We use them to
say, okay, in this area there's about this many people.
But wc're not going to put cookie-cutter facilities out into the ground that says that every
community park is going to have four tennis courts because it serves, you know, that many population. We
look at the area that we are in and make a determination of what thc needs are based upon what we see
around the area. And if we have a neighborhood park or a community park or a regional park elose by, then
we look at the usage of that particular facility.
In this case, let's look at East Naples. It has eight tennis courts. It was built back in the '80s -- late
'80s. It's got eight tennis courts. But whcn we put on Eagle Lakes, wc only planned to put on two. And we
didn't put them on until two years ago because we didn't have the need because the community wa~ either
being serviced by their own gated community or thcy were being serviced by East Naples. So we didn't put
the courts on.
We don't look at these as set. You know, that I will have -- for every 10,000 people I will put in a
tennis court whether I need it or not. These are guidelines. We use them to help us.
This is one set offactors. There's a use factor. There's the calls that wc get in.
And Isle of Capri is an example of why there is now a court at Eagle Lakes Community Park
because they were saying the closest ones are down on Marco Island and they are kind of private and we
can't get on them. We would like to havc a tennis court closer to us.
We have worked with the Manatee Middle School to allow access after hours there, even though we
don't have an agreement with that particular school, to allow them to play tennis there until we could get the
facility up at Eagle Lakes. So that Eagle Lakes tennis court came on about because the community said, I
would like something closer to my homc.
MS. DOWNS: So you're not building the tennis court, but are you buying thc land that -- arc you
decreasing the amount of land needed because you don't need that swimming pool or tennis court or
whatever?
You're buying the same amount of land per population --
MS. RAMSEY: That's corrcct.
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October 22, 2008
MS. DOWNS: -- regardless of what facility you put on it?
MS. RAMSEY: We take the land within the population and we make a determination of what that
community wants. And another prime example of that -- let's use Manatee Community Park. It's 60 acres,
doesn't have a ball field on it because the community wants something different down there.
And so they're getting a very passive park with some tennis courts and maybe a little pitching
mound, a community building, a fitness center. And that's what that community that surrounds that area
says that they want their park to be.
And so we look at the guidelines, we say, hey, we ought to be having these things. They say, well,
we don't want them here. We want these things instead.
So we come to an agreement. This is what this park will look like based upon community input and
the number of meetings that we've had with the people that are adjacent to it.
MS. DOWNS: Okay. Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Harrison.
MR. HARRISON: Just to point out that it looks like there's very little purchasing ofland involved.
We already have quite an inventory.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: We do.
MR. HARRISON: But I also recall that in this same venue last year we talked extensively about
including not only the Delnor- Wiggins, but any Federal and State parks to which we have access to. And
yet here we sit with the same measure on the question of facilities insidc gated communities. Wc said, well,
gosh, that could reduce the impact fee.
Well, if! recall correctly last week the productivity committee has asked that no increases be
considered by the commissioners on impact fees. I think it would be great to have one that went down.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Well, I think -- just to make a comment. I think Mr. Williams said
that, "A", he will go back and find out why he's being told we can't include State and Federal parks. Yet we
know other communities are doing so. Because it was very clear last year that everybody in this room
wanted to be able to include those in our inventory.
Secondly, they apparently are also doing an analysis of their impact fee and their unit costs. So that
apparently is happening now. And if you all will give us a date, maybe it'll help.
MS. RAMSEY: I believe I heard her say about 45 days when I first came in. I think I heard
something like that before that impact fee study would be completed. And the first one that you had -- I
believe we got a letter that said that we couldn't do the inventory.
So, Randy, is that correct or Michael?
MR. BOSI: There's no letter, a specific conversation with DCA. If it's a State or Federal owned
property, we can't include that in our inventory because that's not provided by the taxpayer base of Collier
County, which is charged impact fees, which is directly related to why they can't be included within our
inventory .
Now, once again, this has come out of staff for the past two years. You can recognize the existence
of Federal, State and neighborhood and privately provided recreational facilities and make the necessary
adjustment upon your level of service.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay.
MR. BOSI: That's the statement staflhas provided for the past two years. You can't -- you can't
include it in your inventory because you can't charge people impact fees for something that you don't own.
But you can recognize it and you can lower your level of service based upon that recognition.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Well, we had asked that definitely the records be kept. Because
when we first started the discussion we didn't even have an inventory. Wc didn't have a clue.
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So they obviously have gone back and attempted to do this. And that's a good thing. We need to
keep it up to date because we need to know where we stand on these things.
As a basis for using it to lower our impact fees, I think that chomping at thc bit to my right is Mr.
Vigliotti, who is dying to make a motion.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: We're looking to make a--
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: No. Ijust want to make sure.
COMMISSIONER VIGLlOn'I: No. I wouldn't make a motion, just a recommendation.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: I just want to make sure that everybody has spoken first before we
go to that.
Mr. Fee.
MR. FEE: I know we're here to discuss the AUlR, but impact fees -- Ms. Ramsey, currently the
impact fees that are collected in the parks area, are they sufficient for -- you talked about the cost of
building these facilities.
Have you been able to meet your level of service and acquisition and construction with the current
impact fees that you have?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, I have.
MR. FEE: And there's been no County general fund money that has come into that?
MS. RAMSEY: Not on new construction. Only on repair/replace.
MR. FEE: Okay. So if we change the formula on the land and thc level of service, you might have a
concern as to the impact fees not covering your costs?
MS. RAMSEY: I think that the Board will make a determination when they see the study, you
know, whether we move forward and we're buying more beach lands or whatnot. That's very, very
expensive, as is boat facilities.
And we do have a boat facility coming up on the agenda on the lSth, I think, of November. So we
still are buying lands with water access. And so, yes, we would need to be able to -- if we're going to
continue to do that we need to have impact fees that are going to be able to allow us to continue to provide
that service to our community.
If we decide we're not going to buy beach and boat ramp facilities anymore, then you most
definitely could probably lower the impact fees. And that's the decision that the Board can make once they
see that.
It is based upon priority. And one of the top five priorities that the Board has currently is beach and
water access to the public. And I think the impact fees reflect that.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And, Gina, you know, you asked the question about the level of
service based on type of recreation. That used to be -- and Mike's right.
In June oflast year the Commissioners got rid of that. And I think maybe one reason is because that
is a way that you could actually ask for impact fee reductions. Because if you are building a hard court, you
could say, well, our population is not going to need a hard court.
But now it's purely acreage and purely, you know, money per person to be used as seen tit. So I
think it's going to be kind of difficult to get an impact fee credit for within PUD recreation.
That's it.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Now, Mr. Vigliotti.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I'djust like to bring back up the fact that I'd like to bring a
recommendation before everybody and see where we go with it. That they do actually look into
neighborhood parks and we -- ifneed be, change the level of service.
And if we change the level of service, there could be a reduction in fees, correct?
Could we reallocate those fees somewhere else? For instance, reduce impact fees in certain areas of
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construction and development.
MS. PATTERSON: Amy Patterson, again, for the record. Regarding the level of service, a
reduction of the level of service would trigger the requirement to relook at the impact fee calculations. It's
not a guarantee that the fees will definitely go down.
I mean, it's a holistic look at the entire study, all the costs, all the credits and everything else. It's all
the components of the impact fee study.
But certainly you could make the assumption that a lowering of the level of service could cause the
lowering of the impact fees.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: And if it does, can we reallocate the fees? For instance, give some
reductions on commercial development to help create jobs in this County.
MS. PATTERSON: Well, parks and recreation impact fees aren't charged against any commercial
construction, except for hotels and motels. So relief on the park side is only going to help residential
construction. It will not help commercial construction.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: But they can be a credit towards that or a reduction towards that?
MS. PATTERSON: No, no. The trust funds are all segregated. So a reduction to parks is strictly a
reduction to parks. It wouldn't offset a reduction to anything else.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I think this discussion about parks, if that's what you call them
within private communities, is going to falsely -- it's going to give us some false readings I think. Because
as it was stated, these facilities inside PUDs are not what we look at.
I mean, they're golf courses. They're clubhouses. They're -- you know, I think there's more parking
lot in the private community than there are facilities in our parks. So, I mean, it's just going to give a false
tigure and I think ultimately it's going to hurt the financial view. I think it's going to backfire on us if we go
that route.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Mr. Schiffer.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And Marla, I guess, or somebody, we have a price per acre. Does
that have to be used towards purchase or is that a budget that we can use for purchase?
MS. RAMSEY: You mean this pricing here; the price sitting here? The price in here means nothing
to us. As far as I'm concerned, it is a placeholder because someone told me I had to put a value on a piece of
property. I don't use that for anything that I do on a day-to-day basis.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But my question is: In other words, you could buy something for
I ess than that --
MS. RAMSEY: Most definitely.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: -- then use the balance of the money, which would be put in by
impact fees for tacilities on that acreage?
MS. RAMSEY: We look at this as a shot in time, but that dollar amount doesn't have anything to do
with my level of service. It's only the acres that I go by.
And so ifI'm able to get a developer contribution for lands, that just saved me whatever that land
was worth. Not $230,000. I know it's confusing, but -- but we see that as a placeholder.
I could change that to 100,000 or 50,000 or a million and it really doesn't make a lot of difference to
what we do on a day-to-day basis. It's needed because he has to submit a number up to the State and the
CIE that says this is what we're planning to purchase. But if I can gct the land for $55,000 or a donation,
then I'm going after that.
So it balances based -- I have to put a number in there because I have to show that I can balance it. It
can be any number you want it to be, but right now the impact fee studies says that's just the average so we
stick it in therc. Some of the lands I buy are higher, some are a lot lower.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But it washes because one -- you use the number for inventory,
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you use the nwnber for future purchases. The 270, is that something that's in the CIE?
270 facility per capita?
MS. RAMSEY: That's the -- that was the impact fee nwnber indexed. And are you using that in the
CIE?
MR. BOSI: I think you're referring to the old -- our old category "A" facility, which was facility's
value. The old facility's value was $270 per capita. That's no longer -- it's no longer a measure that's utilized
by this County.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Even though it's in your table one, you know.
MR. BOSI: Well, I mean, that was provided -- that was portions -- that was a portion ofthe study
that went to the Board of County Commissioners that led to the -- to the revision.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So as far as we're concerned, the only thing we should look at is
1.2 for community and 2.9 for regional acres per thousand?
MS. RAMSEY: That's correct. I just look at acres per thousand and then I go out and find the best
deal that I can, irregardless of what the State statement is in this particular element.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Do wc have any more questions?
Mr.Fee.
MR. FEE: I've got one more question.
On page 8 I there's a map that has a legend. It has neighborhood parks, regional parks, community
parks and undeveloped parks. And then you have school site.
My question is: I know what regional parks are. And that's in this 2.9 acres thousand population.
But you also have community park requirements which says 1.2 acres per thousand population.
Does that includc your neighborhood parks, as well as your school sites?
MS. RAMSEY: No, it doesn't. And neighborhood parks are not part of my inventory, as far as it
goes to level of service. There are -- in order to have a great park system you need to have little pockets of
parks that people can walk to.
But our community didn't do that nwnerous years ago. And so the only ones that are really putting
in pocket parks and green space for their communities are those new planned unit developments. But a lot
of them used golf courses as that particular element, not necessarily pocket parks.
So if I put that into my inventory, then I have to put a master plan up against it that says that I'm
going to providc neighborhood parks to the whole community every half mile or something to that level of
service or, you know -- and when you get out into the Estates, that's not practical. They already have five or
two and a half acre parcels. So they have their own park in their backyard, as far as neighborhood parks go,
which is, you know, where you would walk to and recreate. They just walk out their back door.
So we don't COlmt neighborhood parks as part of our level of service standard. We recognize it as
something that we want our community to have because it's a better quality of life for our people, for our
kids, but not necessarily something that we want to hold ourselves to because it's almost an impossible task.
MR. FEE: Are the neighborhood parks -- they probably don't amount to that much, in terms of
acreage?
MS. RAMSEY: Yeah. I think our neighborhood parks average probably anywhere from a half an
acre to maybe -- I think we have one that's four acres.
MR. FEE: And if you included it, it wouldn't probably change much the calculations?
MS. RAMSEY: Probably not. But, again, if] add the neighborhood park, then I've set myself up for
another standard that I might not be able to make. I'd have to put a level of service up against it. How many
acres per thousand would I be providing?
Because it's a separate category. It's not a community park. It's not -- the definition of community
park is drive to larger community facilities where you have larger functions.
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A neighborhood park is a walk to, doesn't necessarily even have a parking lot associated with it.
And most times it's a playground, green space, maybe a tennis court or a basketball court, depending on
what the community wanted.
Our newest one that we're opening up is off of Oakes Boulevard. And it's a 5-acre parcel, but four
and a half acres is wetland and a haIf an acre is basically a playground, benches, pathways, et cetera. That
land was donated to us by the Golden Gate Land Trust.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Mr. Murray.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: We have begun, as the Planning Commission, to attempt to excise
any commitment that was intended in PUDs for neighborhood parks, unless a credit is being given. And I
will say that and then I'll say this.
We'd be hard put to benc1unark scrvicc to the community utilizing neighborhood parks, trying to
figure out how they would, in fact, serve the community because many of them are unavailable to the
community. And some of them have no facility to serve the community.
So in my mind I adjust to this by thinking, you're dealing with a big pot. And you have all these
ingredients and the neighborhood parks are like pepper that you add to it. That's how I manage to get it
through my mind because otherwise it gets very convoluted, very difficult.
And it -- the only thing that it does generate for the mind is that -- you'll forgive me for this. Quote,
unquote, "Are they trying to put something over on us," which is not what you're doing.
But it is very damning. It's difficult at the least to try to figure out what all of this represents. I wish
we'd take the neighborhood parks and just take them and put them as a footnote. Maybe that would solve
the problem that we have here. Becausc wc'll never be able to deal with this effectively. My statement.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Any other questions or comments'?
(No response.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Productivity committee, do you want to make a
recommendation'?
MR. BA YTOS: Motion.
Well, is there some discussion about they're going to look at something and come back to us about
the State and n
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Recommendation. Where are we on the recommendation'?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Well, I think that n in point offact, they are coming back with
something in 45 days is what I'm hearing. Is that correct'?
MS. RAMSEY: That's correct.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And will it address n so that we don't run into this again, will it
address all the issues that we have had, including why we're not using the -- like Delnor- Wiggins State
Park'?
I mean, are we going to be able to have a comparison that shows us what happens if we use that as
part of reducing our level of service'? What would happen if we included that and what would it look like'?
I mean, you're going to have to give us something to go by.
MS. PATTERSON: The impact fee study will not include Delnor-Wiggins or any of the parks
within communities. It can't because we don't own them and, therefore, they cannot be part of the impact
fee calculation. Same as the parks owned by the cities.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: But we can usc them for lowering the level of service.
MS. PATTERSON: And that would be --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: That's what they're telling us.
MS. PATTERSON: What you'rc going to accomplish with the impact fee study is it's going to
address the cost per acre and the cost of providing parks per population. And whatever that number is, be it
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October 22, 2008
higher or the same or lower, will then be taken to the Board for their consideration and their review of the
data. And then they will make the appropriate either adoption or adjustment to the impact fees. But whether
they choose to adopt a higher impact fee or a lower impact fee then becomes a policy decision of the Board.
Now, as far as the level of service, that's a different issue. There will be a level of service set
forward in the impact fees. That's the chicf level of service. That's what the impact fee study will set up.
It's still a policy decision of the Board whcre they go, as far as their level of service for the AUIR.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Do these Boards want to recommend that some of these other items
be included in order to lower the level of services?
MR. HARRISON: Yes.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: What does that mean? I don't know.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Well, for example, if we are able to use Delnor-Wiggins State Park,
for example -- I mean, the beach doesn't get any better than that. It is probably our primary area where
people go to the beach. Yet, we're not able to count that acreage toward our level of service because it's
owned by the State.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And because of that we actually create more parks for our citizens.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: We do. We create more.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: What's the problem? I'm missing here.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: There are those who feel that we have an abundance and we don't
need additional parks. Or at least -- or at least it should be redirected in another place. It should go to
ballparks as opposed to beach.
MR. FEE: Statute.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: I'm not sure. I think Marla has been taking care of that on their own.
They've been --
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I think the only way you could get to a little problem is maybe we
could knock down some impact fees because we could prove to everybody we have an overabundance of
parks. But I don't think -- is the impact tee that great, you know, for parks?
I mean, ifI'm building a -- you know, the table, are the impact fees for recreation a major part of
that?
MS. RAMSEY: We collect it in two areas. We collect it in regional parks and we collect it in
community parks. And the regional parks one is higher becausc we have, as I stated earlier, been looking at
trying to provide additional beach access with facilities and we've been trying to buy additional and expand
additional boat ramps.
The question comes into -- let's just use Delnor- Wiggins State Park as an example. Let's say that
you want to put it into your level of service, but I can't count it in my inventory for land when I go to the
CIE, correct?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Correct.
MS. RAMSEY: So you can lower the level of service, but where's the growth happening?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Well, also that park fills up really quick. So, you know, is it -- you
know, there's not that much access to it, in terms of parking.
MS. RAMSEY: Well, the qucstion comes in, all of the growth is happening on the other side of951
at the moment. And the level of service that we've been providing recently has been really toward athletics
and to child care, after-school care and programming and that element of it.
And, you know, our urban area is about done, as far as where we're putting facilities. And so we're
looking at the 95 I. And part of that was east of 951 or Horizon Study that we've looked at. And, you know,
they expect the same level of serviccs they've been paying for for the last few years as they've been building
their homes.
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So you lower the level of service and, yes, the next people come in will pay less, but then will I be
able to -- you know, am I providing the same Icvel of scrvice that I promised those homeowners out in that
area.
And, yeah, we might be able to get that through Big Cypress, but we did not get anything when we
did Ave Maria. There is no regional or community aspect. They took care ofthemselves and themselves
only.
So what do I do in the Estates and where do I get the lands to do that? And is it better that I provide
the parks out on the east side of951 or have them drive all the way in to the Vineyards or into North Collier
in order to use those facilities. Or transportation-wise, should I be having a filII-fledged facility out there for
them to utilize so they can drive close to their home?
So those are just -- it's not just about lcvel of service and dollars and whatnot. There's a lot of things
that go into the consideration.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Baytos can give us figures.
MR. BA YTOS: The impact fees on combined parts is -- it's community and regional is $3,800 for a
2,000 square foot singlc-family home. And for a condo that is -- that is -- for a condo it's about $2,700.
And from a survey we have from last year of other counties, it appears we have the highest in the
state. Lee County has a -- charges a fee of about $1,500 for the home that would compare with our 3,700.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Yeah. But there's a big difference between Lee and Collier County.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Just onc quick question, if! may. It really pertains to -- is there a
tripping point on population?
In other words, we talk about 1.2 acres per thousand people. Do we have a certain -- there has to be
a certain -- there's a calculation up. There has to be a calculation down.
The number of people -- as we lose population, would that be an adjustment? Whoever wants to
answer that.
MR. BA YTOS: Let me clarity that issue about population. It was talked about a little bit for
transportation. It's not the people who are paying the impact fees. It's the unit.
Now the people are gone. That unit still paid its impact fee. And at somc point in time that unit is
going to demand -- it will be a demand upon the system.
So even if we have a higher vacancy rate, you still have units that are in the ground that have paid
their impact fee for their -- for the demand that they're going to placc upon that respective service.
So all of a sudden if you create an artificial standard based upon the absence of people here, when
those units fill up there's going to be a demand -- an increased demand is going to be placed upon each one
of these systems. And there's going to be no corresponding impact fees related to that increase in demand.
So each unit that has comc on contributes to the demands that that unit is going to place upon the
system. Now, the issue that we have today is we have a number of units that have been out -- that are out
there have paid their contribution and no longcr have thc pcople that are placing demands upon the system.
So be cautioned, always be -- recognize the point that Nick was so concerned about, meaning
having an artificial level of background for your level of service when you've got units out there that have
paid into the systcm but really aren't contributing yet with the population that they have or not.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Mike, you make an cxcellent point. Maybe that's a basis to change
this from -- I presume this to have been population, 1,000. Maybe we should be changing it somehow to
units.
Because based on your statement right there, it doesn't reflect the realities. Because if you're
thinking population, you're not realizing the fact that if we lose population we still have the units. And that
the units can be refilled, so to speak, again at a later time.
So maybe -- is there any validity to that thought of going to units or would that create additional
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problems?
MR. BOSI: Well, I mean, the units -- we have a persons per household and that relates to how we
get the population. So that's how we exprcss it. People understand the population side of it more. But it
always relates back to units because unit is the basis point for population.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Ms. Downs.
MS. DOWNS: Let's see, where to start.
Okay. The comparisons with other countics, we were the second highest. Miami had a park fee of
$6,818. We were second highest with $3,299. That was for a single-family home. What I'm--
MR. BA YTOS: Is that before the adjustments last year?
MS. DOWNS: Well, it's from your same thing.
Having said that, there are -- I mean, I'm also looking at the whole list of places higher than Collier
County. There's almost a $40,000 park fee in California. There's some in Colorado, 13,000; 5,000 in
Virginia.
But I'm still concerned --I want the amount of parks and the amount of money we're spending for
them to be very pure based on our need. And you keep saying, well, you have these developments with golf
courses on thcm. Well, that's minimal. Most developments still have swimming pools and tennis courts, at
the least.
One reason that I'm concerned is I go back to in 2006 the study I did comparing ten like-size
counties. And in every area in 2006, according to the LCIR, Legislativc Committee on Intergovernment
Relations -- in every area Collier County was within the range of normal for the State and not too far off for
like-size counties, except in the area of parks and recreation.
The State norm was 6.3 percent of expenditures. Now, there may be -- there may be more
expenditures than just what's for capital improvements, but therc was already a flag raised with me.
Expenditures for parks and recs was 10.8 percent of our total expenditure. And the normal for the State was
6.3 percent.
We like to compare ourselves. The closest county in population and it's also a coastal county would
be Sarasota. Sarasota was right at 6.4 percent.
Now, I appreciate Sarasota has a one cent sales tax, so [ tully realize that's not completely apples to
apples. But four percentages points is a big difference between the two counties.
So I'm very bothered by the lack of purity in the figures that I'm hearing.
MS. RAMSEY: Clarification on my part. Are you talking about operation budget or are you talking
about capital budget?
MS. DOWNS: I'd have to go back to the LCIR. I did this two years ago, but it was just called
expenditures for the -- I looked at ten counties. And I'm sorry I don't have tighter notes on it from way back
then. You remember that presentation.
MS. RAMSEY: Yeah, but I don't remember ifit -- you know, ifit had land costs associated with it
and the type of lands that we were purchasing at the time and --
MS. DOWNS: No. I don't know.
MS. RAMSEY: -- for what year. In 2005 we bought a lot and I'm not sure what the data means.
MS. DOWNS: No, I'm not saying it may have other than capital element in it. But to me we have
already -- therc was a rcd flag up that this County was spending more money on parks and rec than what
seemed normal. So that -- I've had my radar up ever since.
MS. RAMSEY: Okay.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Fee.
MR. FEE: I'm wondering if we're getting some things confused here. The AUIR, doesn't it point to
the growth management plan where we have to havc 1.2 acres and 2.9 acres?
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.!{lctober 22, 2008
And that's specifically in the growth management plan, right?
MS. RAMSEY: That's corrcct.
MR. FEE: Does it also state that it must be County owned land needed to --
MS. RAMSEY: Do you want to clarify?
MR. COHEN: The conversations that I've had with DCA -- and you brought it up earlier, you know,
why don't you include Delnor-Wiggins or othcr State and Federal lands. We're under County owned and
we're not County controlled. They were very cxplicit about that.
I think what's happening in Lee County is they're taking into consideration amenities that exist there
with State and Federally owned parks and possibly by what's offercd at them maybe having some typc of
corresponding rcduction in their lcvel of service. That's thcir choice.
At the same time, you know, one of the othcr things that we take into consideration and Ms. Downs
has brought up a point about thc cost of thc land and our impact fee being a little higher. Lcc County, for
example, you have a lot more public beach access where in this County you don't. And that's one of the
major cost factors that goes into the impact fee study.
So I think it's probably a real important thing when we move forward with the updating of the
impact fee study is to have you really take a good look at the components that go into it so you can
understand how the recreation impact fee is calculated and why the level of scrvice that's existing in the CIE
has met the needs of Collier County.
And what Ms. Ramsey has emphasized in a lot of instances is that a lot of the facilities that are in
demand Countywide are really not set forth in your PUDs. They're thc ball fields or the things that -- a lot of
those types of developments actually do not want in their communities. They're lighted. They have noise, a
lot of things along those lines.
So I think it would be a really good part of the impact fee updatc for you to get an understanding of
what's transpiring there. Also, when we move forward with thc CIE coming up relatively soon you can
include some ofthat information, as well.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you.
Any other questions?
(No responsc.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Let's have a motion on parks.
First, I guess, we have to put forward a motion on community parklands.
MR. FEE: I make a motion to --
MS. DOWNS: You go first.
MR. FEE: -- approvc the recommendation in the booklet as stands.
MR. BA YTOS: Second.
All in favor say aye.
MS. DOWNS: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Aye.
MR. HARRISON: Aye.
MR. FEE: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Opposed?
(No response.)
MR. BA YTOS: I guess it's unanimous.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. So everybody is in favor.
Okay. Planning Commission, same.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I'm ready.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Make a motion, pleasc.
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COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I move that we forward with a recommendation of approval the
community park and land 2008 AUIR as per the swnmary.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Second.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: It's unanimous, as well.
I would really appreciate it if some of thc issues that wcre brought up get brought back to us so that
wc don't have to keep beating this to death every year.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: This next one --
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: That's cxactly what it's going to mean.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Your problems seem to be regional problems. So if you do want to
put a recommendation in the motion, this would be the one to do it. The one coming up.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Absolutely.
Now, for regional parks, productivity committcc.
MR. BA YTOS: I'd like to hear what you're going to produce.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I'd like to make a motion then.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahead.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I'd like to make a motion -- we put a recommendation that they go
back and try and maybe add neighborhood parks and maybe see if we can't change the level of service and
how that will affect us and at least report back to us on that.
MS. RAMSEY: Clarification. You want to add neighborhood parks to my regional parkland?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: No, no, no, no.
COMMISSIONER MlJRRA Y: 1ney don't correlate.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I can't put this in there, okay.
MS. RAMSEY: I'm just clarifYing. Because, you know, those are those half acre things that are
walk-to neighborhood parks. Regional parks are beaches, boat ramps. You know, large athletic facilitics
like North Collier Regional Park, Sugden. Those are the regional parklands that I havc in that inventory for
you. So I just want to help clarifY that element.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: You can cut the regional parks into small pieces and make it more
MS. RAMSEY: I will move that land right over there.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. So therc has been a motion. Go ahead, make a motion, Mr.
Schiffer.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I mean, my motion --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: He needs to get a second.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yeah. And before I do, my motion is going to be to approve it as
is. So if anybody wants to make one that doesn't --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And I'll second your motion.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. I move to forward with a recommendation of approval the
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2008 AUIR regional park and land as pcr the summary form.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: [ second it.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Opposed?
(No response.)
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Are you opposed?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: No.
MR. FEE: I'd make the same motion on this side. We follow the Planning Commission as proposed
here.
MR. BA YTOS: I'll second.
All in favor?
MR. BA YTOS: Aye.
MR. FEE: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Opposed?
MR. HARRISON: No.
MR. BA YTOS: Three to one.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Three to one.
What is your vote?
MS. DOWNS: No.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. So it is three to two.
MS. DOWNS: No. Three nos.
MR. BOSI: Can we clarifY?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Hold on. Hold on.
Mr.Bosi.
MR. BOSI: That motion wouldn't carry.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: No. There were three of them that were in favor.
MR. BA YTOS: No. Three were no.
MR. BOSI: Three were opposed.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Oh, I'm sorry. Three were opposed.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: For what reason?
MR. HARRISON: Too late.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I know, but I'd like to hear the reason.
MR. HARRISON: I'll make a separate motion, if] may, that--
MR. SW A.IA: Well, we've already voted on it.
MR. FEE: Well, you can make anothcr motion.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: But the question was: Why did you vote that way? Ijust want to
know why, why the dissension. That's all.
MR. HARRISON: My view is we should make a separate parallel calculation to the effect on the
service level of including those State and Federal lands and present that concurrent with the standard format
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review that Ms. Patterson says is going to done in 45 days.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Right. It think that's what we were trying to do.
MR. HARRISON: So that the Commissioners can, you know, see the basis for an adjustment of the
service level and the impact fee.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And you know what, I think that was the same motion we made last
time or someone made last time.
MR. BA YTOS: We did.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: It didn't happen.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Last year, yeah.
MR. SW A.IA: It's like deja vu all over again.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I know. I'm trying to figure out why it doesn't happen. And I'm
wondering maybe we're not seeing something.
Is it we're not seeing something or it's not relevant? I mean, why is not action being taken'?
MR. BA YTOS: Because the State prohibits that action. The State does not allow this locality to
include those facilities.
We can document the acreage for you and then you can make your adjustment to the level of
service, but that's been an action that both advisory boards have not taken ahold of.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Right. Well, I personally feel that by doing it it will be a reduction
. .
m service.
MR. FEE: And to go along with that, isn't this discussion done at growth management plan
changes? That's where you have to submit it to the State and get it approved and then come back and
approve your AUIR.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: But I think that the productivity committee having made that or will
have made that recommendation, which is the right organization to make it, can get the attention of the
commissioners, who can then initiate that and become a growth management plan.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Because this isn't the right -- I mean, if you really feel we have too
many State parks, then you can lower your level of service and use that as your rcason. But you can't bring
the State parks in as -- count them as your parks.
MR. HARRISON: That's why I said as a parallel calculation.
MR. KLATZKOW: Does the productivity committee have a motion for the Board?
MR. BA YTOS: Yeah, they did.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: They did not.
MR. SA YTOS: No. We disapproved the plan.
MR. KLATZKOW: You don't have an altered motion?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Do you have another motion?
MR. BA YTOS: No.
MR. COHEN: Just for a clarification point -- you know, Mr. Klatzkow does raise a very good point.
If it is the recommendation of the three dissenters that the reason is the same, that you would like those
things to be considered, it would be appropriate to move forward with that. That way we could provide
them with a recommendation based on what the rational was.
MR. HARRISON: Okay.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: It's your time, Mr. Harrison.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: You're forccd into it, aren't you?
MR. COHEN: Twisting your arm behind your back.
MR. HARRISON: We recommend a parallel calculation be made on the service level that reflects
the access to Delnor-Wiggins and any Federal parkIands in the County. We recognize this is not part of the
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inventory, but is simply a point of reference to adjust the service level.
MR. BOSI: Are you making a recommendation to the adjustment of service level or arc you asking
the Board to make an adjustment to the level of service based upon the recognition of Fcderal and State--
MR. SW AJA: Reflection ofreality. Citizens of the County--
MR. HARRISON: I'm asking the Board to make an adjustment.
MR. BOSI: Okay. But you're not going to provide them any guidance upon what recommendation
they should do with that?
MR. COHEN: You are just recommending that the Board consider the impact of State and Federal
lands on our existing County parklands, correct?
MR. HARRISON: That's right.
MR. COHEN: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And, Steve, that would include not just the Delnor-Wiggins, but
Seminole, any State Park?
MR. SW A.lA: State and Federal.
MR. HARRISON: The next meeting they're talking about Port of the Islands, picking up that
marma.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: No, no. I understand. I wanted it to be all-inclusive. And the
recommendation, as I understood it, wa~ takc a calculation that would be proffered to the County
Commissioners.
You're not picking me up?
MR. HARRISON: My recommendation was to do it in the next 45 days. So as the impact fee is
updated and presented for their review, they can see what it says.
MS. DOWNS: Second.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: I think it's a good recommendation.
MR. BA YTOS: All in favor say aye.
MS. DOWNS: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Aye.
MR. HARRISON: Aye.
MR. SW AJA; Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Opposed?
MR. FEE: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: So that's four to onc?
MR. BA YTOS: Right.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Four to one.
Now, we're going to take a break for ten minutcs because the poor court reporter is probably going
insane. Thank you.
(A recess was held from 2:36 p.m. until 2:46 p.m.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Next up is County jails.
MR. BA YTOS: I hope he doesn't rccognize me.
CHIEF SALLE: For the record, my name is Scott Salle with the Collier County Sheriffs Office. I
serve as chief of corrections and judicial services. I know several of you on a familiar basis and a friendly
basis, not on an intake basis, so you're free to go.
MR. BA YTOS: Thanks, Scott.
CHIEF SALLE: But to talk about the jails, some of the things -- the significant changes that have
occurred. One, if you look at the jail population or the managcment of the jail inmate population has
decreased, which was a surprisc to all of us. Probably that's related to two things. One is the cconomics, but
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probably more importantly is a program called CATF or Criminal Alien Task Force.
And CATF, if I may use that acronym, we are identifying and processing illegal aliens who have
committed crimes in Collier County. And we are going through the process of transferring those individuals
from our jail to Federal facilities and/or other jails.
And to give you a snapshot, we always talk about snapshots in jail, so I apologize. Is there a
question? Oh, you had a moment. I'm sorry.
Basically during the last 12 months, we'll look at our fiscal year, we just did a quick count and we
transferred 594 individuals to other facilities. And if you just take a quick direct dollar synopsis of those
individuals, our average length of stay in our jail is between 20 and 21 days. Let's use 20 days. State
average is around 40, 41 days.
Times $92 a day for the incarceration fee. That's a little bit over a million dollars, $1 ,OS6,000, I
believe. And that's just direct cost. That doesn't include someone who has to have medical care or surgery or
litigation, something else that we usually encounter in corrections. So we're very pleased with the control,
the decrease in our inmate population. And especially at a time whcre we're looking at the global
economIcs.
Next year though probably will not have a picture to paint as cheery as this one. We're looking at
mental illness. We're seeing an increase. Whether or not it's based on economics, people losing thcir job,
whatever it may be, our medical wing is being utilized to full capacity.
The assets that we have in our community -- and actually there's only two, the David Lawrence
Center and thc Naples jail. And that covers everything from the Marchman Act or the Baker Act. We try to
use DLC, but sometimes we have to hold them and that does cause problems.
And jails were not really built, nor were we trained, to be mental health counselors, but we are
flexible. We are adapting. And we do have a mental health contractorlprovider 24/7 and we are going
through the training.
At this time we have several of our deputies going through CIT training. And that is to learn how to
deal with the mentally ill on the street, as well as in the jail. So we're pleased with that.
But if you have any questions. I just gave you a quick snapshot of where we're going, some of the
things -- the innovative ideas that we have infused during the last year. I tried to cover those. But this
valuable time, do you have any questions according to your documcnts?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Question. Mr. WoUJey.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Sir, is this -- I didn't find much in here on operations. In other
words, obviously you feed people, you house them in beds. Everything is about beds or units.
Do you have any way to offset some of these costs? For instance, sometimes you see the weekend
waniors, the people out there n
CHIEF SALLE: Weekend warriors. That's good.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Yes.
CHIEF SALLE: If! may, one of the programs we have -- and Skip Camp will probably address this
later on n is that we are reinstituting and revisiting the jail farnl. We are hoping to offset our costs by using
inmates -- low-risk inmates that qualify and meet the criteria.
They're not the hardcore ones. They go through our classification system. And instead of those
individuals vegetating, we are planning to have ajajl farm where we can raise basic crops that we can
infuse into our kitchen. That's one.
Other things are we are working with the County with animal controVanimal services. We are there
every morning cleaning out the kennels and so forth. That does a couple of things.
One, inmates do not vegctate. Number two, it's a cost savings. Number three, and probably very
important to us as staff, is that with inmates -- with thosc individuals who are incarcerated, many of them
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need something that is meaningful in life. TIlls is not meaningful.
We know that whether growing crops or working with animals what that does to help them as an
avenue to begin our reentry work and sponsorship. So we're very pleased with that. The Sheriff -- Sheriff
Don Hunter has rolled thc dice with it and with our suggestions and we're pro6'fessing quite well, especially
during the last year, two years. We have, as I said, have implemented somc dynamic programs and they are
cost savings.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: That's good. That's exactly the direction that I was going with
utilizing them for County services. That's it. Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Schiffer.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: In the summary that you presented here, it shows a deficiency of
beds. But you seem not to be concerned about it because you want to see how this program works -- this
ICE program is working out?
CHIEF SALLE: Yes. Now, the ICE program -- again, November 4th everything could change with
new leadership in Washington, D.C. And that will cascade down to other ICE and Department of Homeland
Services. Our 287(g), the way we see it today, could be altered or it could even disappear, as a worst case
scenari o.
If we do lose our 287(g), our partnership with ICE, we would -- our inmate population would go
overnight. And they would be back on that upper trend.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So what would happen then is that's -- obviously November you
get comfortable with the regulatory status, Mike, would we then go back in and look at our level of service
based on this program'? Otherwise we're going to send up a $ I 0 million deficit.
MR. BOSI: I mcan, based upon what happens on November 4th, we're not going to go back and
look at our level of service here. It would be next year. If we saw that there was significant changes within
funding to that program that has helped the Sheriffs Department move individuals from the local institution
-- penitentiary institution to the State and the Federal programs and that was having a negative -- that was
having an impact upon our daily jail population, then we would have to look at our levcl of service standard
and we would have to probably look with a heck of a lot more critical eye on where we were going to get
the money to build the next band-aid to the system, which is the 64-bed cxpansion. But then also the next
major solution, which is where that new jail facility is going to be needed, which we've pushed off -- which
we've pushed out beyond this ten-year period.
So we wouldn't -- it wouldn't be an immediate reaction, but it would be a reaction that would be felt
by the Sheriffs Department over the course of the year. They would provide the -- what that has manifested
to us within the numbers and then the advisory board and the Board of County Commissioners would take
the appropriate action.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: According to these figures, midway through this fiscal year they're
going to -- you know, we're not going to have enough beds. They're not excited about -- as the chart alludes
-- because this ICE program is working.
CHIEF SALLE: Yes, it is.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Probably to the point where we could reduce that level.
CHIEF SALLE: That's why I said next year it will probably not be a very pleasant presentation. Not
like this one. It will takc scveral months for us to feel the ripple effect.
MR. BOSI: And I think that's why the original statement. You had mentioned or made a comment
that the Sheriffs Department seemed not as concerned as maybe the numbers would present themselves to
you.
But if you look at the daily -- the daily average inmate population, they've been able to bring that
number down pretty considerable below what the available standard is.
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October 22, 2008
But I think, as Chief Bloom has indicated, if there's an upset into that apple cart that's allowed the
Sheriffs Department to be so eflective in moving these prisoners through the system, then we may find
ourselves in a much more dire situation than what is presented today.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And, Mike, are you uncomfortable sending this report showing a
deficit?
MR. BOSI: During the seasonal population study in -- in July, the comment from Chairman Strain
was he was a little bit incredulous that jails and law enforcement are Category Bs and only a local decision
and have nothing to do with the State of Florida, in terms of concurrency management. So this is a local
decision real strictly. So it's all local and it's the level that the advisory boards and the Board of County
Commissioners would have in concert with the Sheriff and the incoming Sheriff.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Ms. Downs.
Oh, I'm sorry. You weren't done. Mr. Schiffer.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I mean, what would happen ifin the middle of the year --let's say
they cut the program and it was a disaster, in your mind. What would happen?
Would we all gather again and figure out what to do or--
CHIEF SALLE: There would be an emergency contingency plan, of course. But basically we're
looking at other alternatives, too. We have diversion programs. We have everything from mental health
court to the juvenile judge -- a lot of diflerent specialized, concierge courts.
And so that we're looking at those individual -- we're looking at weekender lockdown programs.
We're looking at infusion offecs and fines that they've paid so they can have this privilege of not spending
the entire time injail and they can go on thcir ofT time.
So we do have some plans. I did not share that with you. I apologize. But it's not just locking them
down and warehousing.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I mean, the thing you're saying is we need to build ajail real quick.
CHIEF SALLE: Uh-huh.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Ms. Downs.
MS. DOWNS: From what I'm reading, it's -- the cost per inmate is 60 to $70, in that range. And
back to Commissioner Wolfley's suggestion on the jail farms/animal service, it seems like transportation
has a huge need for landscape maintenance. Do you have -- do you want to give your inmates the privilege
of going out and doing some landscape maintenance?
Is that anything you have tried?
CHIEF SALLE: No, ma'am.
MS. DOWNS: Why?
CHIEF SALLE: Because we can barely keep up with -- in our kitchen in the jail, I need every day,
every mcal 25 inmates just to serve the meals. Those inmates have to go through the classification process
and checks and so forth. Between the internal demands that we must provide, plus going to animal services
-- and we also clean the garages -- the public garages -- that has really tapped into us because we've lowered
our inmate population by 100 to 150 inmates. So really today we have a very small pool that meet the
qualification to go there.
As we grow, I would be more than pleased to have those activities. But it is -- right now we're -- the
obligations that we've committed to we're just now making that grade.
MS. DOWNS: Well, that's great. Have you ever tried that program; have you had inmates in
landscaping?
CHIEF SALLE: No, ma'am. I would rather have them at the jail farm so we can offset our costs in
the kitchen.
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1 b I 1 !f;&ober 22, 2008
MS. DOWNS: Thank you.
CHIEF SALLE: And grow row crops.
MS. DOWNS: Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Murray.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Having to do with the courts -- and we know we've expanded the
building up there in the campus. Havc we taken into consideration what the implications of that are going to
be? I don't know when they're going to come on-line.
CHIEF SALLE: Yes. They'll be--
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And they undoubtedly will impact on you, maybe accelerate your
receiving guests.
CHIEF SALLE: Yes.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Is that something that's going to be a negative or a positive to you in
the long term do you think; do you have any way of knowing?
CHIEF SALLE: Sure, we do. We're planning for that. And that's a very good point. Probably next
summer we'll cxpand, we'll add holding cells that the inmatcs are prepared to go into court.
We will need three additional dcputies. But we're managing that, as I speak. I feel very comfortable
that wc can handle that.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Ifthc judges -- ifthcre are more judgcs and there's more action,
they will sentencc more rapidly than -- bccause court will be held quickly. Docs that mean that those
prisoncrs ifthey are sentenccd and they're felons they'rc shipped off Iilirly quickly to thc prisons or do you
still havc to hold them?
CHIEF SALLE: Nothing rcally happens that quickly. We havc to go through the -- hopefully they
will, but we are holding inmatcs now over 500, 700, 1,000 days. Through the -- there's a vehicle we use,
Public Safety and Coordinating Council, PSCC, which is a phenomenal group chaired by Commissioner
Coyle. And in thc last two or three years they have taken the timc to undcrstand our problems with the
inmate population, what we necd, what we don't need and so forth.
And they've becn helping us, giving us guidance. And, in turn, we're educating them. It's a two-way
street. And I think that with that vchicle and other vehicles like that, we can talk about our problems and
they help us find a solution, so --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay. And, finally, I remember -- it was several AUIRs ago that we
questioned, you know, how long would it take to build ajail. And you folks had a very good presentation
you showed us.
The fact that you're always projecting out -- and I cannot remember whether it was 8 years or 11
years, but that you were very acutcly aware of that. And part of your projection was when you have to start.
And I presume that those plans continue, am I correct?
CHIEF SALLE: Yes. You're absolutely correct. At 2015 we havc 64 beds schcduled for IJc. It's
ready to go. And then in the future wc -- I'm sure the County will be looking at another site very close to
IJc.
One of the things that we havc with any jailor prison or detention facility is that neighborhoods are
not very fond of having that element in their backyard.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Wh00
CHIEF SALLE: So what we have seen and obscrvcd is that once it's there, just expand on that
location. It seems to bc much more palatable to the public. And we can cither cxpand Naples or go to
Immokalee and expand.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: So basically somc of the money that's in here, if I'm not mistaken, is
intended for the future?
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October 22, 2008
CHIEF SALLE: Yes.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: In other words, we can be assured that we're not going to have a
problem even -- I mean, I'm sure that if -- if the presidents change and there's a real negative change in the
sense of what we're talking about, yeah, you would likely have a big problem. But you have enough to get
started if you have to do it, correct?
CHIEF SALLE: Yes, we do. And if I may just footnote that is that the State is trying to -- is
petitioning for local jails to hold inmates or County prisoners up to 18 months, instead of the traditional 12
months. That means that now we're getting to holding felons.
The safety of the community is at issue, the impact on our budget, the impact on the taxpayer. This
is something we're watching very closely, especially this legislative session in the spring.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Have they done that as an unfunded mandate?
MR. HARRISON: Of course.
CHIEF SALLE: Yeah. That's the magic words.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: The only question you didn't need to ask today, Mr. Murray.
CHIEF SALLE: Yeah.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Do we have any other questions?
I have a question. Your availablc beds have changed.
CHIEF SALLE: Yes, ma'am.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And the one of -- the 1,444 has been like forever. I see the
background information as to why you changed that figure, but I need to ask. First of all, are these jail
standards and guidelines just that; standards and guidelines or--
CHIEF SALLE: That's right. lt is -- if I may, in the mid '90s the majority of the Sheriffs, ifnot all
the Sheriffs, came together and said we need to establish jail practice and policies. That's where the Florida
model jail standards was developed or originated from.
So from that period it has taken us awhilc to incorporate the Florida model jail standards. But every
County in the State of Florida uses the Florida model jail standards so that we're just getting into that loop.
And with that, we have some rated beds and then we have a lot -- we may say we have 1,344 beds.
Well, that doesn't mean we have 1,344 prisoners. The classification process is like a hospital, for analogy.
It's that a hospital is full, but there will be cmpty beds. Because someone with a broken arm is not
going to be in ICU. And with us with classifications we have to scparate the juveniles from the adults, men
from women, and so forth.
Now, we're looking at variations with the increase of gangs. We can't have a gang member from
another -- you know, that's becoming a serious situation of not mixing the population.
So when I say 1,344 beds, that's how many beds we have, but full capacity may not be 1,344.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Right. I understand that. However, before we've been using 1,444.
CHIEF SALLE: Right.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And the reasons for the change are based on things like square
footage of a particular cell or whether it's an intent or whether it's not. I guess, a couple of things. First of
all, how long do you have in order to implement thesc standards?
There's no deadline, correct?
CHIEF SALLE: No.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: So we don't necessarily have to take this complete drop in number of
rated beds this ycar, right?
Could we phase that in so that --
CHIEF SALLE: You could.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Well, I mean that affects -- I mean, you're looking at a $10 million
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October 22, 2008
deficit here that perhaps we could ameliorate in some way by not taking the entire hit on day one on these
beds.
CHIEF SALLE: Uh-huh.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: I mean, have we always not counted confinement units, as well? I
think I looked that up and we had not.
CHIEF SALLE: No, we haven't. We have rated beds that we use and then we had the usable beds
and utilization rate. And we've talked about this the last couple of years.
Unfortunately, I think at one of our public safety council meeting I brought it up and it somewhat
stirred the pot. And they said, okay, let's sit down and talk about it. We did and we came back with that
recommendation of 1,344 beds.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay.
Go ahead, Mr. Baytos.
MR. BA YTOS: Do I understand that this standard of so many beds per population -- there's no
reference to the level of crime in the particular community?
CHIEF SALLE: Not for us. We're using the 1,000 population.
MR. BA YTOS: So in some o[these cities which have two or three times the amount of crime that
wc have, are they using the same standard?
CHIEF SALLE: Yeah, they're using the san1e standard, but--
MR. BA YTOS: So they're doubling up presLUnably on prisoners?
CHIEF SALLE: Excuse me?
MR. BA YTOS: Would they be doubling up then in cells?
CHIEF SALLE: They would be or they would overcrowdcd or whatever issue they may have. The
County next to us is basically 700 inmates over bccause of that same issue.
But basically the State average is around -- wc'rc 3.2 per thousand population. I think the State
average is 4.2, 4.4. I'm not really sure. I can't think. But we're bclow the State averagc.
MR. BA YTOS: Yes.
Okay. So that should give us a little more leeway, if you will, in updating the standard.
CHIEF SALLE: And it's also Collier County previously was an at1luent community and the
majority of -- a large group of the arrestees bonded out according to bond schedule. We're starting to see
that not occurring as often becausc of the economics. But we're still higher than most areas in the State of
Florida.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Any other qucstions?
(No response.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Nothing. Okay. Well, I think that there needs to be some sort of an
adjustment made, rather than going from the -- last year's and past ever so many years of 1,444 and just
dropping down immediately. That's obviously not a necessary thing. That we could do it on a sliding scale
that would get us closer to -- I mean, when our original figures were in here, we werc down -- revenues
needed to maintain was some $3.& million, close to that. Now we're up to 10.S.
I mean, I would think that we would at least recommend to the Board of County Commissioners
that we split the difference here or, again, just try to case it in as opposed to take it all.
MR. BA YTOS: But thcy're not --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I think Donna--
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Well, I'm sitting here looking at a deficit figure though.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Well, I think this is a good deficit figure, unless I'm inaccurate here.
If you were to makc it 1,444, thcy would have less of a deficit and that would mean that they would have to
havc more money ultimately or they would get their money too late to build what they need. I understood it
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-- and perhaps I'm in error. I need confirmation.
That they need to establish a deficit so that they can project for what they need and accumulate for
what they need. So unless I'm wrong, that's --
CHIEF SALLE: Sir, that's --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Is that correct?
CHIEF SALLE: Yeah. It's not a bad thing.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Well, you can say it's not a bad thing, but -- go ahead, Mr. Schiffer.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I think, you know, these end numbers are a disclaimer themselves.
But, I mean, the point he's making out is that 3.2 beds we may benefit in Collier County from the work
they've done with ICE to be able to drop that and that alone may bring them into compliance.
So, you know, ifhe writes off 100 beds, I think what their in-house thinking is that -- in their true
mind, in their true beds they would like to write off 100 beds and not count those because they're not good
beds, for whatever reason.
But I think that based on the fact that we really won't know how they're doing until next year, I
really think we have to just let them slide, whether it's a $10 million deficit or a $3.7 million deficit. Ifit
really is a deficit, we have to deal with it next year. If it's not a deficit, then we're okay.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: I disagrce.
MR. BA YTOS: Excuse me.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Anybody else from productivity; any other comments?
(No response.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Do you want to make a motion?
MR. BA YTOS: I move that the plan be approved as approved.
MR. HARRISON: I second it.
MR. BA YTOS: All in favor say aye.
MS. DOWNS: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Aye.
MR. SW A.IA: Aye.
MR. HARRISON: Aye.
MR. FEE: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: It's unanimous.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: five of you, right?
MR. BA YTOS: Five.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Planning Commission.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: I'll make the motion. I would move that we approve the 2008 AUIR
summary for the County jail facilities, Category B.
Did I move that?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I'll second that.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Opposed?
Aye.
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October 22, 2008
So it's six to one. Thank you. You're good.
CHIEF SALLE: Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Now we move on to law enforcement.
Actually, yes, I will do that right now. We're going to be losing a couple of Planning
Commissioners as of 4:00. Actually, Mr. Murray has to leave at 3:30, but Mr. Wolfley and Mr. Vigliotti
have to leave at 4:00. So by 4:00 the Planning Commission will not have a quorum. So we will be ending
this meeting at 4:00.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Let's make it easy. We'll move to approve.
CHIEF BLOOM: I second that.
All in favor?
For the record, Jim Bloom, chief of operations, Collier County Sheriffs Otlice.
Commissioners, board members, good afternoon. I'll make this quick because I'm supposed to be
leaving with Bob Murray, too, and then I'll be happy to answer. Because I sit on the same board as he does
actually, but I'll be happy to answer any question.
I'll just cover in a thumbnail sketch real quick some of our accomplishments that we've donc as a
result of the AUIR, along with Skip Camp and Manager Mudd over the last few years.
As you've seen, the special operations center has come on-line, which has added space for us now to
work in a more eflicient, efTective manner with all of our elements for special operations, which is
comprised ofSW AT, K-9, marine, ag, aviation, DUI, bomb squad, hostage negotiation.
COURT REPORTER: Slow down.
MR. BLOOM: Sorry. I'm from Kentucky. I apologize.
Dive team and so forth. So those specialty elements, along with all the necessary equipment that
eomes with that, along with some specialized investigative units that are also housed there. So that has
helped us significantly from past years, as far as our stafling and allocation space when it eomes to that.
And as you have seen from the chart that you have in front of you or the information, we have two
facilities, both fleet that will be coming on-line this year, I believe, in March. And also the emergency
operations center that will be coming on line. We'll be moving our communications center over there, along
with our District -- East Naples District substation element will also be moving there. So that has also
assisted us tremendously.
Some things have been pushed ofT, such as thc Golden Gate Estates substation to the future, which
we understand the needs of that due to the current budget constraints of the County. But we would ask that
on an annual basis we continue to look at that. As was stated very eloquently, things aren't driven
necessarily because of population, even though a lot is driven by population. This year on foreclosed
homes, for example -- that's the meeting that Bob and I will be going to. Mr. Murray. And the effects that
foreclosed, vacant homes have had on Collier County.
Just because someone -- population is not here does not mean that it doesn't have a significant
impact on us and what we have to provide for the future for the safety of our constituents that live here and
visit here.
So these are some of the accomplishments over the last ycar. I'd be happy to talk about operations, if
you'd like, as far as our crime rate, allocational resources, CA TF. Chief Salle hit on that very eloquently.
We also have a contingency on the law enforcement side of the house. We have 18 members that do
conspiracy and historical case review. And we made our 100th arrest yesterday, which means that not only
people that come to this County that are arrested or processed, we also go back and work with career
criminals, County and State probation, anonymous tips that we receive and we do historical research.
And the numbers are vcry significant. Wc actually have on an average of the people we are arresting
that are illegal foreign nationals here in this County that are preying on our community mcmbers, they
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average 3.9 felony arrests and roughly five misdemeanor arrests per those individuals that would not have
been picked up if we wouldn't have had that element.
So I think between what -- we are the only agency, to my knowledge, that has both the law
enforcement and corrections side in the entire nation right now. So it has had a significant impact on
keeping our community safe and also alleviating the bed space.
So is there any questions that I can help with?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Do you have any questions Planning Commission's, Productivity?
MS. DOWNS: I have one.
CHIEF BLOOM: Yes, ma'am.
MS. DOWNS: Your expenditures side is very heavy on commercial paper loans.
CHIEF BLOOM: Yes, ma'am.
MS. DOWNS: What intercst rate do you have factored in for that?
CHIEF BLOOM: I would have to -- as far as that, Mike, can you advise on that aspect because I
really don't know?
And I am standing in for Chief Smith, so I apologize. He would be able to answer that more
eloquently from the administration side of the house.
MR. BOSI: Those are n those are existing commercial rates, which I'll have to check with Susan
Usher. I'm not sure if they're a variable interest rate. I imagine they would have been establishcd as a fixed
interest rate as was commonplace in times oflending to ajurisdictional municipality. But I would have to
confirm that with Susan Usher from the offices of--
MS. DOWNS: With that amount ofloan, you could be looking at an extra halfa million just on
interest rates.
MR. BOSI: If it was a variable annuity.
MS. DOWNS: If it is, yes.
MR. BOSI: Being not involved in thc finance departmcnt or budget department, I wouldn't want to
overstep my boundaries or speak for them in a manner that I'm not 100 percent certain.
MS. DOWNS: Okay.
CHIEF BLOOM: Sorry. I'll be happy to look that up and get back to you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Any other questions?
Mr. Schiffer.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Your cost expenditure amount this five years is so much less than
n you were at 43 mill and now you're at 29 mill. What happened in one year that would cause the next five
years to be so less?
MR. fEE: Population.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Can you tcach all of us how to do that?
MR. BOSI: The projects that were on the books last year as an expcnse have come off of the books
because they're completed.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay.
MR. BOSI: That's the direct way to do it is retire -- retire your projects. But those projects still show
up, in terms of your debt obligations.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So last year was an expensive year.
MR. BA YTOS: The fleet facility and the emergency operations ccntcr came on.
CHIEF BLOOM: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you. Lct's take a vote, motion.
MR. SW AJA: I make a motion that we accept the operations budgct for the --
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October 22, 2008
MR. BA YTOS: I second it.
All in favor say aye.
MS. DOWNS: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Aye.
MR. SW AJA: Aye.
MR. HARRISON: Aye.
MR. FEE: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you. Thank you. Unanimous.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I would make a motion that the law enforcement category as
presented for the 2008 AUIR sunnnary be approved.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Second.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
MR. SW AJ}\: The Shcriffs Department does an outstanding job.
CHIEF BLOOM: Thank you.
MR. fEE: Quick and easy.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Now we come to Ms. Matthes from the library.
MS. MATTHES: Thank you. For the record, Marilyn Matthes, library director. It's been a busy year
for the libraries. Your operating statistics that are shown in the booklet are printed before we complete the
fiscal year. So I'd like to update you a little bit.
This is the first year that the library has circulated more than three million items in one year. And
the exact number was 3,394,000, but we're thrilled to have made that much of a gain in one year.
We also increased in door counts from about 1,802,000 to 1,810,00. And if you've been anywhere
near any of our libraries that havc carly voting, you can see that number going up exponentially for the
following year. And some other numbers have increased over the last ycar and some have decreased, as we
have fewer staff members to take care of things like childrcn's programs and answer refercncc questions. So
there's a tradeoff.
We're circulating more items. We're seeing more people. We're seeing more people come to use our
computers. We're seeing more people come to use our pre-wireless Internet in our facilities. But some of
our more staff:intensive programs have decreased in participants in the number of programs we put on. We
just aren't able to put on as many of those programs as we have in the past.
As to the AUIR, we use impact fees to build library buildings. This ycar we've completed the
construction of the Golden Gate branch library, adding 17,000 square feet of service space for that
community.
We are about to complete the South Rcgionallibrary with an anticipated opening of next spring
sometime, depending on when we -- we do have budget to run the facility for seven months and to buy
books for the facility and to stafTthe facility for seven months. We're still in the process of purchasing
furniture and equipment for the building.
After that project is completed, we hope to -- still hope to build an addition to our Marco branch
library. A meeting called Rose IIall with donated funds. And it's looking better actually for that project, but
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those funds are all donated and grant funds not afTected by the impact fees or other County funds.
And the second element that we use impact fee funds are for our books for our libraries. And our
standard is 1.87 items per capita. As you'll note, I'm sure, the general fund has lent the library a lot of
money to pay debt service of these costs. And it's probably projected to do so in the short-term.
Any questions that you have?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Ladies and gentlemen, any questions for Ms. Matthes?
I just have one question. Do all countics -- actually, you won't know this. Mike will probably be
able to answer this.
But do all counties use a peak season number for the library?
MS. MATTHES: Could I answer part of that question?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Sure.
MS. MATTHES: Not too many libraries have a significant impact fee for library services. There are
a few that do, but not many.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Thank you.
MR. BOSf: And with that, I would -- I would have to look at our comparative study. And ifthere's
not impact fees being charged against -- or there's not impact fees being charged against the building
permit, then there would be no discernible way to -- whether they evaluate and whethcr they even have a
level of service standard, let alone whether it's against a seasonal or a permanent population.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Thank you.
Motions?
MS. DOWNS: Just curious. I was surprised to see there was not more grant money. It's only a half a
million to South Regional.
MS. MATTHES: The State and the library is a public library construction grant program. And the
maximum you can ask for is $500,000. And we maxed out that grant.
MS. DOWNS: For the whole County? You can't do that for--
MS. MATTHES: For a facility. We received 500,000 for our Golden Gate branch library; 500,000
for South Regional. And we've requested 500,000 for the Marco addition also.
MS. DOWNS: Okay.
MS. MATTHES: In the past we've receivcd about 340,000 for the Immokalee addition. But it was
built when construction was much cheaper and that was about half of the total construction costs.
MS. DOWNS: Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Fee.
MR. FEE: On page 1 18 you have loan from the general fund and loan from the general fund to
assist with the bond paper loan. How will you be paying that back?
MS. MATTHES: We hope the general fund will grant us time until impact fees start coming back
in. But that's the only way we can pay that back is through the impact fee collcctions in the future.
MR. FEE: Do you anticipate that's what will what?
MS. MATTHES: I sure hope that will happen.
MR. FEE: That you'll get enough impact fees?
MS. MA TTHES: Yes. Everybody says that the economy is cyclical and we're looking for the other
part ofthe cycle.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Any other questions?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Just n
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahead.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Am I missing it or somewhere did you outline the expenses for the
next five years?
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October 22, 2008
MS. MATTHES: That's expenses -- operating expenses, no. That's not part of this.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: The 14 million is not?
MR. HARRISON: It's buildings.
MS. MATTHES: Construction, debt service and book expenses are part of this report, not operating
expenses.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So that 14 million is your inventory of buildings at the end of that
five-year period?
MS. MATTHES: What page?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Page 183.
MR. BOSI: It's the cost of construction for South Regional.
MS. MATTHES: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Expenditures. First item on expenditures.
MS. MATTHES: Expenditures, yeah. That's the construction expenditures.
MR. BA YTOS: And that's for the South Regional library, correct, which is -- which is about to
open?
MS. MATTHES: Right.
MR. BA YTOS: It's not money that's not been approved --
MS. MATTHES: It's not additional money.
MR. BOSI: The only proposed improvement they have in the library bonus portion is the South
Regional Library. That 14 million is already allocated for the construction of that improvement.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: I have one question. I think you're doing a terrific job, so don't take
this the wrong way.
Can we not get more people who arc willing to volunteer to man the operation without creating a
problem for you?
MS. MATTHES: Actually, that's one statistic I can share with you. I was just looking at the final
stats this morning. And last year we had the cquivalent 01'9.4 FTEs volunteering for library activities. And
this year we went up to 10.75, so we are making some progress.
COMMISSfONER MURRAY: That's great.
MS. MATTHES: We're making some progress.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Arc you constrained in any way?
I know you have your operational nomlS and your desires. And I know that services now when the
folks come back from the norm demand services. And some of those people can even be volunteers, I
presume.
MS. MATTHES: Many of them are.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: So I'm just wondering -- because I think at one point there may
have been a misperception that you or somebody was disinclined to utilize volunteers. And I can't believe
that would be true.
MS. MATTHES: No. We always welcome and recruit volunteers. Unfortunately, we cannot always
take everybody who volunteers.
For example, this summer at the Estates branch we had a number of people who volunteered--
students who volunteered. And volunteers take stafTtime to train, supervise and evaluate. And wc didn't
have enough work to keep five students busy during the same time period, so we had to say, okay, we can
take three at this time, the other two will you call back some other time. Wc just don't have time right now.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: That's prudent managemcnt. I don't see a problem with that.
Okay. Thank you.
MS. MATTHES: You're welcome.
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16 I !ctd~ 22, 2008
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I have one.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahead, Mr. Schiffer.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I vote okay.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I think we have this. As you go through the future you see a
growing list of volumes, which is your denominator. What do you see those to be -- or items per capita,
what do you see those to be in the future?
I mean, this seems odd that we're still -- I know we used to be books and we --
MS. MATTHES: Somc of us are still books. But, yes, audio/visual materials are increasingly
important in a public library collection. We have downloadable audio books. You can go to the Internet
through our website and download.
And that circulation count is captured in our circulation annual statistics. We also have print books
that you can download to your computer and use those on-line.
Certainly the market is saying that we want to have downloadable video cassettes in the future and
DVDS in the future. And some libraries are already providing that kind of service. We have not started that
yet.
(Mr. Murray lell the hearing room.)
MS. MATTHES: But those items when circulated are all part of our usage. We have a very popular
program offoreign language instruction. Instead of buying the cassettes or CDs that sit on our shelves, we
have places where you can go to download them and use them, instead of us having to repair or replace
broken media items.
It is a very eflicient way of working and it's been very popular. In one month's time we had over
500 uses of that kind of thing.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: For example, let's take the Rosetta Stone program. If you use that
-- somebody is using that, is that one item or is that --
MS. MATTHES: Evcry --I'm not sure how the Rosetta Stone counted it. Actually, none of these
figures include the Rosetta Stone because they've stopped selling their product to public libraries. They
found they weren't selling to individuals and decided to get out of the library market.
We have a product called Mango now instead. So is -- not each time they log on, but each lesson
they complete or each discreet unit that they usc is a usage.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. Let's say that somebody downloads a podcast or something
like that. You'll considcr that to be an itcm then?
I mean, in other words, the denominator is starting to not make sense again.
MS. MATTHES: No. These are things that we pay for that could sit on our shelves. A podcast
really wouldn't sit on our shelf. If we had downloadable DVDs, that would be a discreet title that could
alternately sit on the shelves or be downloaded.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Again, it's we needed a denominator. We used to call it books and
now we call it items.
MS. MATTHES: Items, right.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFfER: I wonder if there's a better way. We won't figure that out today.
Thank you.
MS. MATTHES: You're welcome.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Fee.
MR. FEE: On page 118 there's a line that says carry forward of 1.358. Is that only because it went
over the fiscal year?
Do you expect to spend it?
MS. MATHIES: It went over the fiscal year. The 1.358 were -- it was actually impact fee budgets
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October 22, 2008
over in 2008 that there was no money behind it to spend. Because we hadn't gotten the loans from the
genera) fund to actually put money in that budget. So we would have gone in the hole if we had been
spending that money.
We are buying more books right now n
MR. FEE: I notice --
MS. MATTHES: -- to go on the shelves of the South Regional library. And that's why that number
is 30,000 on the current '09 projected for needs.
MR. FEE: I notice on page 123 that under the library materials you also have a carry-forward of 1.3
million. Is that -- is that what you were mentioning --
MS. MATTHES: Yeah, yeah.
MR. FEE: -- that it will be?
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Any questions?
(No response.)
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Motion.
MR. BA YTOS: I move that the library AUlR be approved.
MR. SW AJA: Second.
MR. BA YTOS: All in favor say aye.
MS. DOWNS: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Aye.
MR. SWAJA: Ayc.
MR. HARRISON: Aye.
MR. FEE: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Unanimous.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you. Planning Commission.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Tor had a question.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Yeah, I had a question.
VfCE-CHAlRMAN CARON: Oh, I'm sorry.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: I see that the level of service here is the same as last year, .33.
MS. MATTHES: Correct.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: My recollection is that someone from the productivity last year in
reviewing this questioned othcr basis of you developing a level of service. And I wondered have you
explored any other possible means of level of servicc?
MS. MATTHES: We did look at other levels of service, but there really are no other Icvels of
service used by any public library that we could find.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: It seemed to me you had some suggestions here. Do you remember
that?
MR. HARRISON: Yes, I do.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: I remember that.
MR. HARRISON: We talked about door count. We talked about peaking of scheduling as to whcn
people were needed and facilities were used. A number of operational measures.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Was the reason for not looking at this primarily because nobody
else is using it?
MS. MATTHES: Partly. All of our librarics -- we did use door counts as we had to decrease hours
throughout the last year. And we tried to determine the least used hours in which to cut service.
And since our door count did increase from '08 from '07 -- over '07, we think we did, you know, an
okay job in making those decisions. We do usc opcrational data to make that kind of estimate should we
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need to close hours or whatever.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All set?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I move that we forward the 2008 AUIR for library buildings with a
recommendation of approval as per the summary.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Second.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SCI-IIFFER: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I move that wc forward 2008 library materials to the BCC with a
recommendation of approval as per the summary form.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I second.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: You will have to do the same thing. You're right.
MR. BA YTOS: What he said.
MS. DOWNS: Second.
MR. BA YTOS: I move the second and it's unanimous.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: It's probably a good thing we're leaving at 4:00.
MR. BA YTOS: My ADD is kicking in.
MR. FEE: That's a good motion.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. We're good. Thank you.
Okay. I think n yeah. Mr. Vigliotti has just said that he would be able to hang in with us in time to
get our last two items done.
So Mr. Page -- Chief Page, you're up.
CHIEF PAGE: For the record, Jeff Page with Emergency Medical Services. Just to give you some
background, during the 2007 AUIR the level of service standard was changed from 1,000 -- or one unit for
every 15,000 of population to 1,000 -- or I'm sorry. 1 to ]6,400.
Also the response time goals were changed. Previously we had an eight-minute travel time
County-wide. That was changcd to 90 percent of the time looking at an urban response of eight minutes and
a 12 minute response in the rural area.
This year we're not really asking for any additional units. In fact, bascd on the recommendations of
the productivity committee and our EMS advisory council, we've reduced the inventory by two units
bringing it down to 24.5. And based on the current adopted level of service, there would be a deficit in
FY13 of/our units at that time.
MR. FEE: Motion to approve.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: The productivity committee has been working with Chief Page
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religiously here and done a great job.
MR. BA YTOS: As well as EMS. It was ajoint venture.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Great.
MR. BA YTOS: Second.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: We've got a motion on the table.
MR. BA YTOS: All in favor say aye.
MS. DOWNS: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Aye.
MR. SWAJA: Aye.
MR. HARRISON: Aye.
MR. FEE: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Unanimous.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Planning Commission. first of all, do you have any questions?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: No.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I'll move.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Go ahead.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Move to approve the recommendation of approval to the BCC the
2008 AUIR for emergency medical services as per the summary.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you.
Do wc have a second?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Second.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSfONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you very much.
(Applause.)
MR. FEE: We canjust skip this next item.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Poor Chief Page has absolutely been through the ringer on all of this,
so we appreciate it.
But now we come --
MR. CAMP: For the record, I'm Skip Camp, the facilities management director. We're not going to
do a whole lot for a long time.
But I will be happy to answer any questions.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: You've done your damage already.
MR. CAMP: That's fair.
MR. FEE: You put us there.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Do I have any qucstions by any of the Commissioners?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: No.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Schiffer, go ahead.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I think, Skip, the only thing is that as we go into the future, which
this thing does go quite a bit into the future, is square footage still going to be the reasonable -- I mean, isn't
there a lot of services not going to be square foot oriented?
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MR. CAMP: Honestly, sir, to be really fair from a functional perspective, we build on need. We
have a master plan. And that's how we build buildings and space.
And because we're so siloed, the courts may need space, but the jail may not. Or, you know, the tax
collector may need space, but the property appraiser may not. So it's very diflicult to correlate the two.
Basically we have -- we hire a professional architectural firm that does a master plan. And that's
pretty much what we follow.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Any other questions?
Mr. Fee.
MR. FEE: 156 you have, again, a loan from the general fund annex and a loan from the general fund
debt payments. When will you be paying that back?
MR. CAMP: Susan is our financial adviser.
MS. USHER: Hi. My name is Susan Usher for the office of management and budget. As soon as the
economy gets bettcr, impact fees start coming in, these will be paid back with impact fees.
MR. SW AlA: We trust you, Susan.
MR. FEE: Do you have any bonding capacity?
Not that you're looking for this right now, but do you have any bonding capacity left?
MS. USHER: We have quite a bit of loans out there right now in commercial paper. We can -- there
is the possibility of refinancing all that commercial paper into a bond, so ycs. I mean, we'd have to switch
them out.
MR. FEE: Okay. Thank you.
MR. BA YTOS: I had one thing. Earlier this year we did somc studies with the County staff. And I
happened to be assigned to Skip's area of responsibility. And he shared with me the 300 page or so study
that their consultant has prepared. So that they have really gone into a lot of detail.
But the big thing for me is that he doesn't want to spend any money for at least eight years. So I
didn't think I want to get in any more detail today. I don't think it's necessary.
But, you know, along the way there will be funds. It depends so much on these population
projections, which are shaky.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Mr. Harrison.
MR. HARRISON: Skip, let's go the other way for a minute. Do you foresee any surplus property
that the County owns that we might turn into cash?
MR. CAMP: I don't, as we speak. But, remember, that we'll be working with other organizations
very closely. ffwe somehow, for whatcvcr reason, find that opportunity, we'll work with the other
municipalities.
We are retiring leases. That's going to be a $2 million a year savings. That's been our focus as it
relates to space. And then I'll just remind you that we also are obligated to by law -- by State law to supply
the space for those constitutional officers of which we have no control over. If the tax collector takes on--
MR. HARRISON: And a question for Susan, if! might. At some future date could we see a
schedule of maturities on all this commercial paper?
MR. FEE: If they're paid off early.
MS. USHER: I do have such a schedule, but I don't have copies with me.
MR. HARRISON: Maybe sometime at a productivity meeting. But with the banking situation
where it is, it probably wouldn't hurt to takc a look.
MS. USHER: Okay.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Good idea.
Ms. Downs.
MS. DOWNS: For either one, maybe Susan. Do you know how much rental space arc you
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occupying or land; do you have buildings on rented land?
MR. CAMP: We lease about 75 percent or 76,000 square feet. We hope to retire most of that within
two years.
MS. DOWNS: What about land?
MR. CAMP: Not for the purposes of oflice buildings. We do lease some awkward items like space
on towers and things like that.
MR. HARRISON: Airport.
MR. CAMP: Yeah. Property on the airport will be a long-term building on there. 50 years.
MR. FEE: And that's low dollars.
MS. DOWNS: Very low to the public.
Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Are there any other questions?
I'm sorry. Mr. Kolflat.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: On page 164 there's a list of government buildings, but I don't see
anything for the supervisor of elections.
MR. CAMP: She's an owned property. The supervisor is an owned propcrty.
COMMISSIONER KOLfLAT: Okay. Thank you.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: We don't want to leave out Jennifer.
Any other questions?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Entertain a motion.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: I will in a minute.
And we'll start with the productivity committee.
MR. HARRISON: Make a motion to accept.
MR. BA YTOS: Second.
All in favor say aye.
MS. DOWNS: Aye.
MR. BA YTOS: Aye.
MR. SW AlA: Aye.
MR. HARRISON: Aye.
MR. FEE: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: And, go ahead, Mr. SchitIer.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I make a motion that we forward to the BCC with a
recommendation of approval the 2008 AUIR for government buildings as per thc summary.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Sccond.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Koltlat.
COMMfSSfONER KOLFLA T: I wanted the opportunity to make a motion. I move that we
adjourn.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Second.
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October 22, 2008
VICE-CHAIRMAN CARON: Thank you, Mr. Koltlat.
And thank you everybody for working through this in a day as opposed to three days. You have the
next two days off.
*****
There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourncd by order of the
Chair at 3:48 p.m.
COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING
COMMISSION
.Ii L2 (]
"-f/J--YJr7"'--.. -R d7 'bu0~~
60NNA REED CARON, Vice-Chair
Thesc minutes approved by the Board on _._L :;../ 'r /, .~, as presented
corrected.
1/'"
or as
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. BY
CHERIE NOTTINGHAM AND KELLEY MARIE NADOTTJ
Page 103
Fiala
Halas
Henning
Coyle
0.,,0.0 of County comn'l~n_ Coletta 4-"~//
TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE
COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION
Naples, Florida
November 6,2008
RECEIVED
GEe 2 3 2008
61110
~vember 6, 2008
I
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Planning
Commission, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted
business herein, met on this date at 8:30 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION
in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida,
with the following members present:
CHAIRMAN: Mark Strain
Karen Homiak
Donna Reed-Caron
Tor Kolflat
Paul Midney
Bob Murray
Brad Schiffer
Robert Vigliotti
David J. Wolfley
ALSO PRESENT:
Jeffrey Klatzkow, County Attorney
Joseph Schmitt, CDES Administrator
Ray Bellows, Zoning & Land Development Review
Thomas Eastman, Director of Real Property, School District
. .
--......
Misc. Corres
Date:
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;opies to'
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It\-;
November 6,2008
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the November 6th meeting of the Collier County
Planning Commission.
If you'll all please rise forthe pledge of allegiance.
(Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.)
Item #2
ROLL CALL BY SECRETARY
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, roll call by our secretary.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Mr. Thomas Eastman?
MR. EASTMAN: Here.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Tor KolfJat?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Here.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Brad Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I'm here.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Mr. Midney"
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Here.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Good morning.
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Donna Caron?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Present.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Commissioner Strain?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: What, I don't get a good morning? But I'm here.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Good morning to you. I said good morning to you before.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Boy, Paul is the only one that gets good morning during that.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Commissioner Murray"
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Here.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Commissioner Wolfley"
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Here.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: And Commissioner Homiak"
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Here.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Threw you off, didn't I?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Yeah, you did. I just lost my whole train ofthought right there.
Item #3
ADDENDA TO THE AGENDA
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, addenda to the agenda. We have our bimonthly continuation of the Heavenly POO
again. So I think this is the third or fourth time. But if anybody's here for the Heavenly PUD, which is in Pine Ridge, it is being
continued until -- December 4th was what was in our request to continue. So it should be at least that time, if not later. So if
anybody's here for that matter, it will not be heard today.
Item #4
PLANNING COMMISSION ABSENCES
While we're on the agenda -- well, let's go to the planning commission absences, and we'll discuss some upcoming
meetings.
We have comprehensive staff here today to ask us about some dates in January and February to review the CIE and the
I O-year water facilities plan. And Randy, or whoever's going to do it, I don't know who's representing compo planning to discuss
this issue, but you wanted to be fIrst up, you are. So -- and your guy's not here. But it's pretty straightforward. They're looking at
dates for January 16th and January 20th in the afternoons only in this room. And then makeup dates if need be on January 29th or
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November 6, 2008
February 3rd.
And I need to ask the commission if they have any preferences or time frames or conflicts on those dates.
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And the 16th and tbe 20th of January in this room -- well, the 16th is a Friday, the 20th is a
Tnesday. They will start in the afternoon, so I would asswne sometime between 12:00 and 1:00, 12:00 or 1 :00, whatever we set,
we'll go from there.
MR. SCHMITT: We would have the room after 12:00, so we could start at like 12:30, whatever time you want to start.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I would suggest, ifthere's no conflicts from the planning commission, we just nail it for the
16th and 20th, both afternoons, and get it done. It may not take both, but if we have both reserved, we shouldn't need more than
two afternoons to do it in.
MR. SCHMITT: Note that your regular meeting is on the 15th of January. That's -- and I believe we have six petitions
scheduled for the 15th of January. And then you'll meet on the 16th. The 20th was an alternate date. Again, that was just the
afternoon.
But the intent was to meet on the 16th. That way we would have it ready to bring back to you for your regular meeting
on the 5th as part of the summary agenda.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, you know, in the other alternative, instead of the 16th, which is the day after our regular
meeting, if we did -- if the first meeting we had was scheduled for the 20th in the afternoon, if we needed a carryover, we could do
the 29th. Neither one of those weeks we have another meeting scheduled. That might make it easier to --
MR. SCHMITT: Martin Luther King holiday, just so you know, is the 19th. So if anybody's planning any type of long
weekend, the 19th is a holiday.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, it gives them more time to read the docwnent then.
MR. SCHMITT: David, was the 20th one of the dates available" Was that a -- yeah.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 20th and 29th are both available in the afternoons.
MR. SCHMITT: 29th becomes very difficult for us to get something back to you in summary for the 5th, because those
books are going out -- nonnally on the 27th or 28th we're sending you docwnents for the consent -- well, for the consent agenda
on your regular meeting on the 5th of February.
So the 20th would be -- would be the preferable date. Actually the preferable date would be the 16th, but we'll take the
20th, if that's what you'd prefer.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I don't mind the 16th and the 20th as a backup to the 16th. But I'm not sure how the rest of you
all feel about how much reading we may have.
Now, there's six items scheduled for the agenda on the 15th, from what we're told.
MR. SCHMITT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But at this far in advance, six usually don't hang in there.
MR. SCHMITT: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: We might get down to two.
MR. SCHMITT: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: What is the feeling ofthe panel?
COMMISSIONER CARON: I'm good with the 16th and the 20th.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Is everybody else okay"
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Yes.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Yeah, I think it's best to--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, well, let's do it the 16th and 20th, Randy.
MR. COHEN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Would you send out confinnation e-mails and time to start?
MR. SCHMITT: Yeah. And we'll have the advertisement done for those -- for the date. The 16th is the primary, and
then of course you could always continue it to the 20th.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Mark, what is the time on the 16th and 20th?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, they would start after 12:30. t2:30 or 1:00, Tor, whatever staff feels is the appropriate
time to start we'll make that happen.
MR. COHEN: We will send out the confinnation e-mails, and we appreciate your consideration early on this morning.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, thank you, sir.
MR. SCHMITT: Those are the only dates of availability ofthis room. Otherwise we'd be back over at Horseshoe
sometime and --
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CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No, those dates work. We're good to go on those dates.
Okay, the next meeting of the planning commission is on the 20th of this month. That would be our regular meeting.
Does anybody know of any conflicts they may have where they may not be here"
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, good.
Item #5
APPROVAL OF MINUTES - SEPTEMBER 18,2008, REGULAR MEETING
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: With that, we will move on from planning commission absences to approval of minutes of
September 18th at the regular meeting.
Is there a motion to approve?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: So moved.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Second.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion made by Commissioner Vigliotti, seconded by Commissioner Caron.
Comment?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All in favor, signifY by saying aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye.
MR. WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries.
Item #6
BCC REPORT - RECAPS - SEPTEMBER 23, 2008, REGULAR MEETING
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ray, do you have a BCC report?
MR. BELLOWS: Yes. The Board of County Commissioners heard the conditional use for the public facilities adjacent
to the Moraya development. That was approved by the Board of Zoning Appeals by a 5-0 vote.
The board also heard a PUD rezone for the North Church -- or the Naples Church of Christ mixed use planned unit
development --
MR. SCHMITT: That Moraya Bay was not approved. It was approved to continue it.
MR. BELLOWS: Oh. Motion to -- yes, it was -- sony.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's a minor technicality.
MR. SCHMITT: Minor technicality.
It was a motion to continue that item. It will be heard at the December meeting, along with the other two petitions
associated with that. It will be -- at the December 2nd BCC will be the Moraya Bay conditional use for the restroom, conditional
use for the -- or the variance for the trellis and the conditional use for the beach club. All three will be heard at that meeting. At
least tentatively scheduled.
Just correcting you, Ray.
MR. BELLOWS: Yeah, thank you.
The North Naples Church of Christ mixed use PUD, that was approved, and it has an Ordinance No. 08-62, so I know it
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wasn't continued. And that was approved 5-0.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, sir.
Item #7
CHAIRMAN'S REPORT
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, chairman's report. I have two items. The first one I want to mention is we have a young
man in the audience today auditing our planning commission, or reviewing it to make sure we stay on track. And I think the
gentleman's name is Jeff O'Donnell?
MR. DONAHUE: Jamie Donahue.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Jamie Donahue. Well, I was close. I had the J and D right. Welcome, and I hope we entertain
you today. We'll try.
The second item I have to discuss is some paperwork that we've all received concerning the RLSA cancellation of the
meeting. Now, as you all know, there was a Phase II report scheduled to be discussed by this board on December 1st. The Phase
II report followed the Phase I report that we heard on May 1st of2008.
And if you recall, during that meeting very clearly we asked numerous times of the applicant -- or not the applicant, I'm
sony, the chairman ofthat group, as well as comprehensive planning about a series of questions that we had. And I know Ms.
Caron had specific questions, I had specific questions, Mr. Murray I think did, and others had.
They were given nine pages, I believe, of questions during that meeting. And it was very clear that we wanted those
questions answered as part of their Phase II report. And we even asked the Board of County Commissioners to stipulate such,
which was done.
Last week the RLSA committee voted to combine the Phase II report with the Growth Management Plan amendments
into one event and go straight first to the BCC and then supposedly back to us.
The downside of that is if you've taken a Phase II report, which according to their management plan was supposed to
have very specific narratives and discussions, and combine them automatically into the finished product of the Growth
Management Plan, you're really not getting the benefit of a -- at least in my opinion, the benefit of an open discourse in response
to our questions. You're basically going to have the questions answered by what they believe are the GMP results.
I didn't anticipate it coming this way. When we were -- when they were before us, in fact, at that meeting I'll read
something that was said.
Chairman Strain: The point I was trying to make with my question was now that we've got the committee and the
committee has accepted the fact they're going to try to respond to the questions that we imposed by these groups and myself, I
wanted to make sure that you guys didn't get close to the end and say, you know, dam it, we just don't have time. It's important
that everything gets addressed is what I'm trying to say.
Now, we predicted it. They assured us. And the response from staff and from them was that they would come back to
us.
And last week they voted, from what I understand, to change the process. It is going to go to the BCC I guess with their
request.
I'm relaying all this information to you so that if you have any need to discuss this with the commissioners that have
appointed you, you certainly feel the -- you might have some more of the background to do so.
I know their effort is to expedite the process. I'm not sure in these times why we need to do that. And I think the
problems that we've all seen on this board was from expediting the original Growth Management Plan for Collier County back in
'89 when it shouldn't have been.
So that's my thoughts on it. You have paperwork from other people. I know two commissioners that would like to
speak, Ms. Caron, then Mr. Wolfley.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah, I just wanted to comment that I was the one that made the motion that we receive
and accept that Phase I report. But it was with -- specifically with the stipulation that the nine pages of questions submitted by at
the time Commissioner Strain and Ms. Ryan from The Conservancy be addressed in the Phase II presentation before this body.
And Mr. Hamel, as well as Mr. Greenwood, all assured us and agreed that it would be coming back, the Phase II report
would be coming back to us for a thorough review.
And I would just like to suggest that we may formally have you as the chairman write a letter to the BCC stating that we
prefer to have it come back --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I'll second that.
COMMISSIONER CARON: -- as we were assured.
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COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I second that.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Before we have a motion and a second, I wanted to finish with, though, the panel discussion.
And Mr. Wolfley, did you have a comment you wanted to make?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Yeah. I had passed out some information that you may not have had.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Did Cherie' get copies?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: It's right here. I haven't gotten down there yet.
Mr. Klatzkow may have one, you guys can have one.
As you know, I'm on the RLSA committee. And I just want to assure you that there was a dissenting vote for that
directly to the BCe. And we can probably imagine who that would be.
And it's opened my eyes to this process, more so than even the planning commission, because it's -- you know, you can
see how these things can get railroaded and jammed forward without the knowledge of and reasoning why. And it's -- hopefully
with the material that I passed out, you'll see the reasoning, and you'll see some of the backup and why this happened.
But I'm in full agreement with -- I think that Mr. Strain ought to -- Chairman Strain ought to send a message to the BCC.
I know I'm going to be talking to my commissioner, and I hope everybody here talks to their commissioner. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you. And I did talk with Al Reynolds, because he was the individual who initiated this
consent with the RLSA. His point to me was that the Phase II report in their eyes -- or his eyes, maybe: I don't know ifhe was
speaking for the whole group -- was to be now the rewrite of the GMP.
I expressed to him that that's a little bit putting the cart before the horse, because the public ought to have the right to
respond to the narrative and the concepts of the RLSA and how that has developed over the last five years first, before we go right
in to writing rules.
Because if you jump to the second step, it's almost like acknowledging the first step is an agreeable point. And I think
that discourse needs to happen before the second step does. And I expressed that to him, so we're in disagreement on that point.
Go ahead, Mr. Schmitt.
MR. SCHMITT: Can I put on the record for clarification, Mr. Greenwood is the staff liaison to that committee. That
committee was a board appointed committee. The staff provides logistics and administrative support, logistic administrative
support to that committee. The committee is a board committee, and we will -- we take direction based on the committee's vote.
And we will take that to the Board of County Commissioners in an executive summary. And certainly then the Board of
County Commissioners can so direct to do with what they want to with both the report or any of the comments.
But it's not my place to circumvent the authority of that committee. And 1 just want to make sure you understand that
staff is reactive in this role and it's not that we don't have any responsibility or authority from -- or I'll say responsibility, but
authority in steering that committee onc way or the other.
And as David knows, it was a vote of the committee and all we're doing is responding to the vote.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you very much, sir, we appreciate it.
With that, there's been a motion made by Ms. Caron, seconded by Mr. Murray that the chainnan write a letter to the
Board of County Commissioners expressing our concerns over this alternative process, which I will certainly do if the committee
wishes that.
All in favor ofthat motion, signity by saying aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye.
MR. WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion canies, 9-0.
Item #8A
PETITION: CU-2006-AR-I 1046, MORAYA BAY BEACH CLUB
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November 6, 2008
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, on to bigger and better things. The consent agenda items. We have two of them on
today's agenda. First one is Petition CU-2006-AR-ll 046. It's the VI Limited Partnership for the Moraya Bay Beach Club.
Any comments on the consent document that's been submitted for our approval?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I can't comment on the document per se, but in tenns of a vote, I was not present for the
conclusion of the meeting, I missed a number of bits of infonnation, so I would ask the County Attorney to confinn that I believe
that I'm not able to vote in this matter.
MR. KLATZKOW: That's correct, sir.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, are there any comments on the document itself?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It was a tie vote at the time. It's going forward with the documentation indicating that -- our
preference on that. So I don't know if anything else should be done.
If there's no comments, is there a motion to recommend approval of that item on the consent agenda?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: So moved.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Wolfley made the motion. Seconded by?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Second.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Vigliotti.
Is there any comments?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All those in favor signity by saying aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye.
COMMISSIONERMIDNEY: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye.
MR. WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries.
And show Mr. Murray abstained. 8-0.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: However, I would have made one point, that had I voted, I probably would have voted
in favor.
Item #8B
PETITION: CU-2007-AR-126 19, K.o.v.A.C. ENTERPRISES
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Petition CU-2007-AR-12619, K.O.V.A.C. Enterprises is the next item on the consent
agenda.
Are there any comments from the planning commission on this particular item?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Same thing, sir.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray will be abstaining for the--
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- same reason that he previously abstained. Although we may get a dissertation afterwards, I'm
not sure.
COMMISStONER MIDNEY: I wasn't here for the vote either.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Midney wasn't here for the vote, so we have two abstentions that will occur.
And I have mentioned to staff, there are two issues that I wanted to make sure were clarified. And I know 1.D.'s here, so
why don't we start addressing number seven and number eight.
Number seven in the development conditions talks about the southern buffer that was supposed to be more lush planting
material in order to really provide a buffer to the businesses to the south.
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tfyou recall, we moved the preserve area -- which really was a needless exercise to have a preserve in the middle of the
industrial park -- to the south part of the site, have it combined in a green space area in which more vegetation could be planted to
provide a better buffer for noise and dust and everything else. And that seemed to go over well with the people that were here that
day as well.
I'm worried that seven doesn't get us here. And for the record, I'd like to know if there's any way of clarifYing it.
MR. MOSS: Sure. For the record, John-David Moss, Department of Zoning and Land Development Review.
I spoke with the county landscape architect about this, and we've revised the language.
The second sentence in number seven, after where it says abutting uses, period. The next sentence where, make that a
small"W", so this will be a continuation of this sentence. Where this buffer.
And then we're going to delete intersects with the .37-acre preserve, planting shall be native species and. We're going to
delete all ofthat.
And so the provision will read, where this buffer shall not count towards those plantings required to recreate the
preserve. That way the buffer will be separate from the preserve.
And that was his main concem as the viability of that preserve. Because of all the dust that's going to be traveling, he
thought that it would better to have the Type B buffer separate from the preserves, because that's actually what's going to capture
the dust passing to those commercial uses to the south of the operation.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, but now let's -- if we look at the plan, that creative preserve area in the south, you're
saying that the landscaping material does not count towards the plantings required to recreate the preserve. Yet they're still going
to be required to recreate the preserve.
MR. MOSS: They're going to be required to recreate the preserve. But the problem with Exhibit C, when it was revised,
they located the preserve on top of the Type B buffer. And those really shouldn't intersect at all, they should be two separate
areas.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, but if you -- the concern was a recreative preserve does not provide a lot of -- it could be
very sparse. That doesn't help the residents --
MR. MOSS: That's right.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- the business to the south. So how is relieving the language in there that you're going to have
to recreate an area specifically as a preserve help?
MR. MOSS: Well, the preserve is just going to satisfY the requirement of environmental staff. The Type B buffer is
going to satisfY the concerns of the residents that dust will not be able to travel on their properties.
The landscape architect felt that the Type B buffer was going to be the most effective barrier between the uses and that
the preserve should be planted in that location to assist with screening out windbome materials, but it's not going to provide the
sarne sort of protection that a Type B buffer would.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I had thought that this area -- the idea of recreating a preserve in an industrial park that never
had one there in the first place doesn't make a lot of sense. And it was acknowledged there are no endangered species living --
MR. MOSS: That's right.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- in that industrial park. So I'm not sure why we're putting a member ofthe public through this
effort when all we're really trying to accomplish is more vegetation for both dust, debris and noise blowing from the property onto
the properties to the south.
Why are we still focusing on this idea that we got to create a preserve? Because now you're talking various strata and
species of plant material that is really incompatible with that area. There's no need for it. Where's the practical point there?
MR. MOSS: It was just to fulfill a requirement of environment.
From my position, the Type B buffer is really what's going to prevent dust from traveling onto those sites south of the
property. And that was my concern.
Again, it was environmental services that have LDe criteria requiring a preserve to be recreated on the site. And
according to your recommendation at the last hearing, it was better to put it there so that it could assist somewhat with the dust.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Does anybody else on the panel have any recollection of the direction?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Well, I just know it's a requirement. We moved it so that it would be helpful. And we all
acknowledged that the buffer was the most important part of it.
But yeah, they are required to recreate that preserve.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I think it's kind of hard to fix it at this meeting, but your language is better than what was there,
so 1 guess we should go with it.
Although I wish I had understood the intent more at the time we discussed it. Because I see honestly absolutely no
reason to recreate a preserve in an industrial park, especially one of.37 acres.
MR. MOSS: Right.
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CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It does nobody any good but spend money.
Ms. Caron?
COMMISSIONER CARON: You know, I wish we had the transcript so that we could refer back to it in discussion, and
we don't have that yet.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, on--
COMMISSIONER CARON: I don't believe.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Hancock, you're the representative of the applicant at the time. Would you mind -- do you
have any problem with the language that's being put forth by staff as a correction to nwnber seven?
MR. HANCOCK: We'll live with it. But I don't think it's consistent with the discussion that we had.
And what we talked about at the meeting was to -- and I'm sorry, for the record, Tim Hancock with Davidson
Engineering.
What we had talked about is instead of recreating a preserve of three strata, which doesn't make a lot of sense, was that
we'd focus on the upper and midstory --
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right.
MR. HANCOCK: -- within the preserve, which would have the greater effect.
And now what we're doing is we're saying -- and we agreed to the Type B buffer within -- you know, in that same area.
So we'd have a Type B buffer and then the balance of the preserve would be focused on midstory and upper story
plantings instead of groundcover to have the effect that was desired.
What we're now doing is we're actually asking for a .37-acre preserve outside of the buffer, which is actually more land
for something that everyone felt didn't make a lot of sense to start with.
My suggestion as a cleanup to this would be that in addition to a required Type B buffer that the balance of the creative
preserve area focus on midstory and upper story vegetation to achieve the desired buffering effect. I believe that is 100 percent
consistent with the direction of the planning commission at our prior hearing.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I agree with you, that certainly seems more in line with what I recall. And I appreciate you
reiterating that to us.
I would like to get this language redone correctly. Let me see if there's any objections to that. t think what you're
proposing sounds reasonable.
Go ahead, J.D., did you have something else to add?
MR. MOSS: I do. I just wanted to say Susan Mason is here and she just wanted to let you all know of the requirements
in the LDC of these recreated preserves, which she feels might conflict with what's being recommended.
MS. MASON: Good morning. For the record, Susan Mason with Environmental Services.
I'm not sure it would really conflict, I just wanted you all to understand that recreative preserves have a larger plant
material requirement than landscaping requirements. The trees have to be a minimum of 14 foot in height. And spacing may be
different. I don't know what the spacing is in a Type D buffer.
It's to be planted naturally. And it's larger midstory plants with very close spacing, and also understory plants.
And from my conversations with landscape reviewers, they said that it's actually much more dense than most buffers arc
as far as landscaping. I can't really answer the specific details, but it is larger plant material than the landscape code normally
requires, and it is rather dense planting, too.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Are slash pines considered something you could put in a recreative preserve?
MS. MASON: Yes. It has to be a native vegetation that's appropriate to the site where whatever the elevation, final
elevation is going to be, and it does have to be a native vegetation.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So they could go out and buy buckets of slash pine and put them in the ground.
MS. MASON: That would be something that would be accepted by environmental staff.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. And that doesn't provide any buffer at all. And that's the concern.
I would rather see us put midstory and upper story canopy trees as suggested by the applicant to a point that we have a
better buffer in an area that's more practical for a buffer than a recreative preserve.
So I'm still in favor of suggesting that we provide the language as suggested.
MR. MOSS: Mr. Hancock suggested that he and I get together and work on this language and maybe bring it back to
you in a half hour's time, if that's okay?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's fine. We have to wait for a break between one of the other cases, but--
MR. MOSS: Perfect.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- that would be better.
And we have one other point to discuss. I know this is just a clarification. On number eight it says the first 250 of the
site's entrance drive shall be paved.
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I went back and checked my notes and in two different locations I show the number ISO. It doesn't -- I don't think it's a
big deal, but I want to make sure that if it's supposed to be ISO and that was the motion, that that's what we put there. But I don't
know if that got changed in discussion.
Did you review the tape?
MR. MOSS: I tried to review the tape. Unfortunately the complete hearing is not uploaded. But I did speak with Mr.
Hancock about it. and that was his recollection as well, that it was ] 50.
So that is a typo there. It should be the first 150 feet in number eight.
COMMISSIONER CARON: I think we can easily just take a measure of the throat, because that's what it's supposed to
be. Whatever that measurement is, whether it's] 50 or 250, it's whatever the throat is --
MR. MOSS: That's right.
COMMISSIONER CARON: -- is what we agreed on.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Would you guys check that during your time and --
MR. MOSS: We sure will.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- then when you come back between, we'll clean it up. Okay.
COMMISS]ONER SCHIFFER: Mark, on that point.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schiffer0
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yeah. David, also bring back what's the distance ofthe adjoining property along that
roadway. Because the intent was to pave at least that distance.
MR. MOSS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER SCH]FFER: All right, thank you.
Item #9B
PETITION: SV-2008-AR-I3374, NAPLES GRANDE BEACH RESORT
CHAtRMAN STRAIN: Okay, thank you.
And with that, we'll come back and visit that one in a little while.
]n the meantime, we'll move on with our regular hearing. The first one that was supposed to be up today, and again, I'll
repeat, the Covenant Presbyterian Church, also known as the Heavenly CFPUD on Pine Ridge Road (sic) has been continued to
at the earliest would be December 4th or later. So if you're here for that one today, that will not be heard. We'll be moving straight
into Item 9(B), which is the Petition SV-2008-AR- ]3374, the Naples Grande Beach Resort, requesting seven variances for
signage issues. This was continued from October 2nd to today.
All those wishing to testifY on behalf ofthis item, please rise to be sworn in by the court reporter.
(Speakers were duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Are there disclosures on the part of planning commission?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Yes, I do. My son works for a company, a vendor that supplies services to the hotel,
but this does not affect him in any way, shape or form, nor would it affect my opinion of voting on this matter.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody else?
(No response.)
CHA]RMAN STRAIN: Okay, is there a presentation by the applicant?
MR. HANSEN: Good morning. For the record, Hunter Hansen, Managing Director ofthe Naples Grande Beach Resort.
And Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, thank you for hearing me today.
You'll see that I don't have my graphic in front of me. J.D., maybe you can help with that graphic. Maybe we can -- this
will help. I don't know how to use the equipment very well, so you can guide us through this a little bit.
We're looking at two different issues. I'll start with the first, the fairly simple one. A little bit of background.
Before the name change and change of ownership, the name of the resort was The Registry Resort. There was a large
"R" on the east facing side ofthe building that could be seen for miles.
There were also srnallletter "filS on the columns that are flanking the entrance ofthe resort that you have in your
paperwork, and is shown here on the screen.
When the ownership changed and the name changed, we removed the "R" from the east facing side of the building,
therefore eliminating visibility from the building within a couple mile radius.
So as new customers or even existing customers are driving down Seagate Drive, there was no visibility as to what that
tall building represented and what it was.
We did replace the letter "R"s that flank on the colwon of the entrance to the letter "N"s, and we thought those were just
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November 6, 2008
simply signs that would not be obtrusive.
We also developed and installed what we call a low monument sign. It's sign A on your paperwork that shows Naples
Grande Beach Resort.
We are in violation of some ordinances because those three signs, signs A, B and C, are within 100 feet of one another.
We didn't think that the little "N"s -- we replaced the "R"s on the columns with "N"s. They're approximately three by
three. I think you'll see in your paperwork what the exact measurement is. We didn't believe that those "N"s were really in -- we
didn't understand they would be in violation, because we were just replacing them from the previous letter "R"s.
So we think that we just -- we would like to have those letter "N"s remain. We think that it's important as people drive
down Seagate Drive, because there is no large visibility on that east facing tower any longer that customers can actually see what
they're driving into.
And it's a simple design. It's only a three by three-foot square. They are not obtrusive. And it is just more of an
architectural feature versus a sign.
I'd also like to add that in doing some research, our neighbors up the street that is also a very large well known resort in
the community have a vel)' similar logo'd letter on their columns as you face -- as you drive into their resort.
So there is some precedent there, I believe, that these signs were permitted at some time in the past.
That's my story on the first set of variance petitions we are submitting.
And I believe staff recommends that those "N"s be allowed.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, are there any questions of the applicant"
Mr. Kolflat?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: I don't have a question, but J did do some surveying of the LDC, and I'd like to give
some commentary on the intent and purpose of the LDC relative to signs.
LD Section 5.05 -- 5.06.01(A) states that in general, and I quote, increased numbers in size of signs distract the attention
of motorists and pedestrians and interfere with traffic safety, and the indiscriminate erection of signs degrades the aesthetic
attractiveness of the community, closed quote.
The LDC goes on further to state that, the intent and purpose oftlle sign code is to authorize the use of signs that meet
the following five criteria.
Would you put that photographed one that I gave you up, please, Ray.
This is a photograph of the entrance to the hotel. And you can see the large sign there in the center of the end of the
driveway up there just about in the middle of the photograph.
In looking at this, and consider the compatibility with the surroundings is one of the requirements of the sign code.
And the surroundings are residential. The grouping offour different size, shape and type of signs, all within the small
area in residential district is not compatibile with the surroundings. It is residential to the north, south and east of this site.
Appearance gives it a commercial use rather than a residential use with a grouping of signs.
Number two, the signs shall not endanger public safety or unduly distract motorists. In traversing up the entryway,
motorists and pedesnians will pass four different signs in a short ISO-feet length of roadway. They will be unduly distracted and
endanger public safety.
Three: Signs should be appropriate to the type of activity to which they pertain. Naples Grande is primarily a hotel. Its
ancillary activities such as multiple dining facilities, spa services, et cetera, are primarily for the hotel residents.
These services, as now offered to the general public, are not appropriate to the primary hotel function, which is a hotel.
These ancillary services could be placed on such spare space ofthe existing main sign.
Could you put up item two that I gave you, please, Ray.
This is a closeup picture of the main sign there. Signs should also be large enough to convey sufficient information and
small enough to satisfY the regulations.
Well, this sign can be visually seen ISO feet up the roadway where I took the last picture.
The main existing sign as it is meets this criteria. The sign can be seen about 150 feet from the roadway. However, the
permitted sign area is even greater than the actual sign area and more text could be added, if necessary.
Five: Signs should be reflective ofthe identity and creativity of the individual occupants. The addition of the fourth sign
on this relatively small area is not reactive of creativity.
Here again, the underlying purpose and intent of the LDC is to prevent the proliferation of sign age as is evidenced since
the entire sign code Section 5.06.00 limits the quantity of signage. No less than four pages of the code are devoted under a
common heading maximum number of signs allowed, which lists limits on different types of all signs. Four signs that are confined
within a small area is not reflective of creativity.
And I beheve that this petition does not follow through with the intent and purpose of the LDC.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Mr. Wolfley?
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COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: When I was reviewing this I was thinking that I had forgotten totally that The Registry
had been sold, but I -- in looking at this, I've been down there in the end, been in to many conferences there.
My thought is because of the location where it is, it's kind of a strange deal, because if you miss the hotel, you're going
to go right into a residential area. I fmd it pretty critical to have this sign that's shown up now so people don't pass it and go on
into the residential areas. I just think it's good looking, it seems compatible to me, and I just wanted to add that.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Are there any other comments?
Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yeah, my question is this: I think the biggest problem is the Strip House sign, which is
out wandering, you know, on the lawn there.
I have no problems with the monograms on the column, and I kind of share your feelings, are these really signs anyway
or just a tasteful little monogram.
But would you have a problem pulling the Strip House in past those signs?
MR. HANSEN: Well, I was going to get into that discussion secondly after this discussion, talk about these three signs
first and then go to the fowth sign.
That's certainly a possibility. And again, I'll get into more explanation ofthat as I get into the next discussion.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I'll wait. I'll wait. I'm sony.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead, Ms. Caron, then Mr. Murray.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah, I was just going to say that -- and I think I said this at the last meeting, I have no
problem with this main Naples Grande Beach Resort sign at all. And ifthe Strip House Restaurant can be listed on that sign, I
have no problem with that either.
I agree with you, that I consider the columns an architectural feature more than anything else, and I don't consider it a
sign, so I have no problem with the columns either.
My main problem is with the Strip House Restaurant sign being out on Seagate Drive.
MR. HANSEN: I certainly understand that, Commissioner. And I'll address that in a minute, but I certainly understand
your consider.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Mr. Murray"
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I'm going to also join the chorus and suggest that the monograms as they've been noted,
they're fme, they're an identity. This is a business and yet it's in residential, and it provides residential services as well as
commercial services. It's the beast that exists because we like it to exist.
The sign that I'm looking at on the visualizer now is I think tasteful, effective, and I would have to agree that if we -- if
you really do want the restaurant's name, then you would have to withdraw that from the area to make -- perhaps this is a good
location for it. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Vigliotti?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I agree with everything else, with all the other commissioners, this really is a nice
sign, doesn't cause a problem, and the letters on the columns are more architectural.
But Ray, I have a question for you. Suppose the hotel changes names and they want to change the "N" on the colwnns
or change the graphics on this sign. Would they have to come through this process again?
MR. BELLOWS: For the record, Ray Bellows.
The sign variance can be tailored to the individual CWTent owner requiring any subsequent owners to come in for
another variance, or you can tailor it to run with the property and the sign.
So like any other pole sign, when there's a change of use, they just get their permits.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Okay, no, I'd like to then just bring that up in case it changes again, they want it
changed again back to an "R" or a IIQll or an "Lt! or a IlW", I donlt want to see them go through the process again.
MR. BELLOWS: Mr. Schmitt raises a good point, too. If the sign code changes, then they would have to comply with
any changes in the code as new signs or replacement signs.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: That's fine. But under normal circumstances, they could just --
MR. BELLOWS: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: -- get a permit to change the letters. Okay.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other comments betore the petitioner--
MR. SCHMITT: As long as they stay within the size.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Exactly. In other words--
MR. SCHMITT: If they change the --
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: -- here the issue was "R" to "N"s.
MR. SCHMITT: Yes.
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CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other comments before the petitioner continues?
(No response.)
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Okay, sir.
MR. HANSEN: Thank you, Mr. Chainnan.
IfI could again just have a few more minutes about the controversial sign and that's the Strip House Restaurant sign.
And I very much understand your concerns, but I'd like to provide a little bit more background, provide some perhaps
different understanding.
The Strip House Restaurant has been in the hotel approximately one year. It is very different than other specialty
restaurants in other resorts hotels, because it's a leased restaurant. It's a third party. The ownership of the hotel does not own or
operate that restaurant.
Specialty restaurants in large resorts really require significant revenue from the public in order to maintain their
business. A specialty restaurant like this would really need about 70 percent of their volume, that's 7-0 percent oftheir volume
from the outside, versus hotel guests to maintain their liquidity. Otherwise, the restaurant would not financially do well.
If specialty restaurants do not get that kind of volume from the outside, they become lost leaders in a resort. Especially
restaurants that are owned and operated by resorts that are lost leaders, the resort is willing to accept that restaurant as a lost
leader because it just adds more value to the total resort.
In this case because the ownership is a third party, they will not -- if they don't make money over a period oftime, they
will go out of business.
There are approximately 70 employees in that restaurant and they are a complete separate entity. So I'm really speaking
on their behalf In order to maintain their volume, they're seeking visibility and they're seeking some awareness in the community.
And again, as people drive down Seagate Drive, although someone has called them and made a reservation and knows
the address at 475 Seagate Drive, as people are driving down Seagate, you don't really know where 475 is until you make that
right-hand turn into the resort and you see the 475 on the monument sign.
So unless a previous guest has been there before and they know the restaurant is in the confines of the Naples Grande
Beach Resort, they really are looking around for an address of where is 475 Seagate Drive in looking for this restaurant.
Therefore, the proposal to install this low monument Strip House Restaurant sign just outside the entrance is so that
people driving down Seagate have some visibility as to where this restaurant is located.
Yes, restaurants like other businesses can advertise in the newspaper and they can have direct mail campaigns and
things like that, and all ofthese ads state the address of the restaurant. But again, unless you're driving down Seagate Drive, you
don't know where 475 is, you will have no idea where that restaurant's located.
And again, we could put that sign inside the entrance, to your point Mr. Commissioner. We could do that somehow. But
until-- if you picture yourself driving down Seagate Drive, this sign you're seeing on the screen is not immediately visible as a
straight-on shot. You really have to turn right to see that as you're coming to the entrance. The only thing you see as you're driving
on Seagate Drive are those tlNtts on the colllilln, with no visibility of the entrance.
So there's -- that's our reasoning or our recommendation as to why we would like to have some sort of visibility on
Seagate. Otherwise, in all likelihood this restaurant may go out of business.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Sir, if this restaurant were in fact a lost leader owned by the hotel corporation, would
you have had any difficulty in placing that information on your sign that we're seeing in the viewer right now?
MR. HANSEN: I'm sorry, Mr. Commissioner, I don't quite understand your question.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Sure. Ifin fact, rather than this be a separate entity business, had it be a lost leader, as
you portrayed it could be, would be, if it were your restaurant would you have a need still to have it out into the residential area,
into the right-of-way, so to speak, for people to see, or would they not perceive it as being Naples Grande restaurant?
MR. HANSEN: Mr. Commissioner, if! owned that, it would be nice to have that sign outside the entrance. Not
necessary to have, because it would be a lost leader, so I wouldn't consider it in my total, total financial perspective.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Right. So--
MR. HANSEN: It would be nice to have, not necessary to have.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: So the hinge here is that you're trying to make sure that the restaurant that you have
sustains.
MR. HANSEN: Correct.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And t can appreciate that.
But I will agree with my fellow commissioner who indicated that it is a residential area, and from the photo that was
shown, it appeared that from 150 feet away, as the statement was made, a person can, who is looking for 475, be able to visualize
the address. And I'm not sure whether or not you're suggesting by the way you're offering it that you're looking for capture traffic,
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that you're looking for somebody who might be driving by and say, oh, here's a restaurant I'm not sure in that area what that
would all get you anyway.
It would seem those persons -- and this is conjecture, I recognize it -- those persons who are going to suggest that they
meet at the Strip House say, it's at the Naples Grande, and they're going to know that somehow.
I recognize that somebody driving along might be tempted to go into the Naples Grande for sustenance, if they happen
to have seen the Strip House sign outside. But they may just as likely see it from inside.
So I think -- I know that from my point of view, if you were more in favor of accepting the premise that it belongs
somewhere closer to that sign or perhaps on that sign, I think you might do well with this commission. But I'm just guessing that
MR. HANSEN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yes. Ray, would you put up Tor's photograph one?
And while he's doing that, in your development you have a freestanding restaurant Is that the Strip House now, or is it
within the lobby of the hotel itself?
MR. HANSEN: The restaurant itself, sir?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yes.
MR. HANSEN: The restaurant is within the cohnnns, back up in the area ofthe resort, yes.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But if! recall, there's a freestanding restaurant In other words, it's not in the actual
building of the hotel --
MR. HANSEN: That's correct It's one of the floating buildings. It used to be called the Brass Pelican Restaurant, if I
recall.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. So as we're looking down this road here, you see your main sign in there. What
if you put this up on the grass to the left of that; in other words, behind the colwnns? I mean, I kind of like the idea of getting it off
of the street and getting it behind your monogram column somewhere. Is that a location -- I mean, you could see--
MR. HANSEN: It's certainly a possibility.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I think if you do put it there, by the way, put an arrow to make sure they don't drive up
the lane backwards.
MR. HANSEN: Right
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But the biggest problem and the only problem I have with this application is -- I think
the sign's okay. The fact that it's contrasting the taste of your other signs, I understand that, I think. But I do think it should be
inside your property more than -- at least behind your entrance gate --
MR. HANSEN: Okay.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: -- than out in the residential neighborhood. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Wolfley?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: The sign is on your property, correct?
MR. HANSEN: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Okay. I'm just wondering, is the issue ofthe sign the location of it? Do we have a
picture of where the sign is now? That's it right there. Okay.
Is it that right there that we're objecting to, Strip House, with no restaurant? And they've added the restaurant But, I
mean, is it the name or is it the sign?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It's each one of us will have our own decisions on that, Mr. Wolfley. I mean, you have--
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I wasn't expecting an answer, I just--
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Just rhetorical.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Do you have anything any other--
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: No, that's it I'm sorry. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Sir, I've got a couple -- or actually, Ray, I think the question may be more of you.
MR. HANSEN: There's a better shot, thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Is this considered an accessory use to the hotel?
MR. BELLOWS: The restaurant?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes.
MR. BELLOWS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Then it would have benefited from the reduction in parking?
MR. BELLOWS: I'd have to check the site plan, but I asswne it would, yes.
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November 6, 2008
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Do you know why the reduction in parking was placed in the code for restaurants that are
amenities or associated with -- accessories to hotels?
MR. BELLOWS: Yeah, it's basically an accessory to the hotel, which is the main driving force for people going to the
facility.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. And the accessory use computation for a restaurant is 50 percent of normal
requirements. Why did we pick 50 percent?
MR. BELLOWS: I'd have to do some research on that. I can't tell you oflhand.
COMMISSIONER CARON: The point I'm trying to make is this restaurant's reliance on predominantly outside activity
of what you indicated earlier was 70 percent. I would think then the parking may have a problem, because we're only giving you
50 percent of the parking. You only would have provided 50 percent ofthe parking if you labeled this as an accessory use to the
hotel.
Second of all, I've lived in this community 30 years, and The Registry before your company took it over was built a
long time ago. I live 12 miles, 15 miles out and every morning I get up and I can look down the road and there's this gold dome
shining at me, or copper dome or whatever you want to call it. That's a pretty significant landmark in this community. And if
anybody wants to find a restaurant associated with that hotel, I think it's pretty easy to designate where it's at.
So I'm not sure the sign is needed to tell people that you're at that hotel more than it is to pick up pass-by traffic, which
I'm not sure is the intent to get your 50 percent above what you're supposed to be supplying trom the hotel itself based on the
parking calculation. And so from that point of view 1'm not sold yet on the need for sign D at all, where it's at or even moving the
location, so --
MR. HANSEN: Mr. Commissioner, if! could please respond to your comments.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Sure. Go right ahead.
MR. HANSEN: The first comment about the accessory -- I'm not familiar with that term but I guess it's the number of
parking spaces for the restaurant.
The exact location of the Strip House Restaurant was previously a restaurant. It was previously called the Brass Pelican.
It was owned and operated by the hotel. It was a lost leader. It had the same if not more seats than this Strip House Restaurant
does. So relative to seats in the restaurant versus the parking ratio, that really has not changed.
The second comment, Mr. Chairman, people like yourself that have been in the community for a length of time certainly
know what the building stands for. There are a large number of customers that have been to the hotel for the first time that have
never -- from outside of Naples. Half of our business is convention and group related, which are coming from all parts of the
states and all parts of the country.
So at least 50 percent of our customers, if not more, are not Naples residents and don't really know the building as well
as you do, sir.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, and I understand. I just -- I'm not quite sold on the need for that sign yet.
MR. HANSEN: I understand.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'm not --I certainly have no problem with all your other requests. But that one is still, I'm just
not -- I haven't seen the need.
MR. HANSEN: Well, we're certainly sensitive to the name and essentially the location, and that's why we tried to make
the sign as professional and unobtrusive and low and good looking and unobtrusive as we possibly could and still obtain our
objective.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, any other questions of the applicant?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah, I just want--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: -- to make one comment.
Looking at that photo, the sign may in your mind may be unobtrusive, but it stands out ITom the property.
MR. I-IANSEN: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And that's where my problem is personally. It -- I don't have a problem with the name.
Anybody can read in anything they want in a name. It's a catchy tenn; I suppose it's intended as such.
But I do have a problem with the fact that it seems to me anyway to be rather glaring right outside your monwnents.
And it really is an intent to show here's a commercial establishment, come and eat. And that's fine, except that I think personally it
belongs inside to be able to make that point.
And I don't know where you can put it in there, but -- I don't know. That's a problem I'm having, too.
MR. HANSEN: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, any other questions of the applicant?
(No response.)
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November 6, 2008
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, sir.
MR. HANSEN: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: We'll hear staffs report now.
MR. HANSEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. MOSS: Thank you, Commissioner. For the record, John-David Moss, Department of Zoning and Land
Development Review.
I would just like to draw the commission's attention to the letter that was received on October 15th contained in
Appendix One ofthe supplemental staff report.
I would also like to say that with the recommendations and stipulations made by staff, this project would be consistent
with the GMP and the Land Development Code.
I would also like to draw your attention to the new conditions of approval dated October 20th, 2008 that are contained
in the ordinance. And note that we did make the corrections about the separations between the signs. And staff is still just
recommending approval of signs A, B and C and not D.
If you have any questions, I'll be happy to try and answer them.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any questions?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: .Iohn-David, ifhe brought the sign inside and essentially beyond the monogram signs,
do you have any thoughts on that? Is it the location of it or just the sign itself'
MR. MOSS: It's the sign itself. They could put that information on the existing Naples Grande Beach Resort sign there,
but they can't have a separate sign on the property. So it doesn't matter if it's out where they have it located now or if they move it
interior to the property.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: It still requires a variance. But you still would probably object to it then even though
it's -- I mean, I think the in -- the reason they make the sign -- the two signs are designed exactly in contrast of each other, and I
think that's the intent, that the restaurant's in contrast with the hotel. But the -- so if we brought it back in, you would still be
objecting to it, do you believe?
MR. MOSS: I still think it would fail to meet the purpose and intent of the sign ordinance.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. And then the other question is these monograms. Do you think those are signs or
just somebody puts a decorative letter on the column? Do you really treat it like a signO
MR. MOSS: No, I'm with you on that. I think it's just a decorative embellishment. I don't think it's really a sign, even
though the LDC considers it one.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Kolflal?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Yes. If you remove those decorative elements, would that pile revert to an accessory
structure?
MR. MOSS: No.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Why not? It's about as large as a shed you could have as an accessory structure
physically. Just because it's not hollow doesn't mean it's not a structure.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: It's a wall.
MR. BELLOWS: For the record, Ray Bellows. It's a structure but it's not a -- wouldn't be classified as a sign. More of a
wall type of structure. And it still would be allowed. A colonnade would also be allowed.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Does it stay within the setback, the front yard setback--
MR. BELLOWS: A wall can go within the setback.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It would be an architectural feature--
MR. BELLOWS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- more than it would be a building.
MR. BELLOWS: Correct.
MR. MOSS: And for the record~ I've never received any objections or heard of any complaints about those columns
from the community.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions?
Mr. Vigliotti?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Yeah, I was going to ask you that, ifthere's been no objections from the community.
MR. MOSS: No.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I'm not a big fan of signs, but the restaurant I think may need a sign and possibly in
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that area. There's been nwnerous restaurants went out of business within a few miles of that. And major restaurants: Ruby
Tuesday's, Silver Spoons, Kona Grill, Macaroni Grill.
And having another restaurant close I don't think helps anybody. Restaurants provide jobs. They in addition pay taxes,
they pay the intangible tax, and I don't think a small sign in this area is going to hurt anybody.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, anybody.else?
Mr. Midney"
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Yes, I'd like to echo what Mr. Vigliotti said. I think the Strip House sign is tasteful and I
think they need it to promote their business.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Ms. Caron and Mr. Wolfley.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah, I think it's very easy for the Naples Grande to put the Strip House signage on their
own sign. They can lease it to them ifthey don't want to give them the space. But that sign has plenty of room to move and
accommodate the Strip House Restaurant signage there.
So I think there are things that can be done that would be perfectly fine with the community and with the variance
process. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, any other questions before we go to public speakers"
Mr. Wolfley?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Yeah, I just want to also go along, I think the sign is fine just where it is.lfanything, I
would move it closer to -- further away from the hotel to differentiate it. But I think it's fme the way it is.
Possibly it's the red, but the red is part of the logo. Ifit were green, it'd blend in. But I think it's appropriate and just fine
the way it is.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other comments before we go to public speakers"
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Ray, do we have any public speakers')
MR. BELLOWS: No one has registered.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Is anybody here from the neighborhood that would want to speak and didn't know they had to
register?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Ms. Caron"
COMMISSIONER CARON: Then I'll make a motion.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, let's close the public hearing. I'm sorry, I thought you had another contribution.
COMMISSIONER CARON: No, no, that's fine.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, with that we'll close the public hearing and we'll entertain a motion.
Ms. Caron?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yes. I move that Petition SV-2008-AR-13374, Naples Grande Beach Resort, be approved
as per staff recommendation.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Second.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion made by Commissioner Caron, seconded by Commissioner Murray for approval with
stipulating staff's recommendations.
Discussion of the motion? We'll start with Mr. Kolflat and work our way across.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: I've listened to all the comments. The problem I still have is that the LDC lists eight
general guidelines and evaluative criteria to be followed by the CCPC and the BCC when considering a variance. I think this is a
required charge on our part. It's not something discretionary that we can ignore it.
In reviewing this petition relative to these guidelines, there are no special conditions peculiar to the land of structure
characteristics.
Staff report and site inspection concur that the existing permitted sign is visible from the roadway and of sufficient size
to advertise both the hotel and on-site steakhouse.
Two: There are no special circumstances such as preexisting conditions relative to the property. Removal ofan existing
illegality is not justification for a variance.
Three: A literal interpretation of the LDC will not work an unnecessary or undo hardship on the applicant. As the staff
report states, the applicant retains its existing principal sign in its present location and can include text advertising on the site
steakhouse.
Applicant contends there is still a hardship and that the sign would have to be replaced in order to add the restaurant
name.
And I would like -- Ray, could you please pick up this paper I'd like to put on the overhead?
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November 6, 2008
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: J.D., you could have made it up here quicker. It's coming. A slow train.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: The bucket brigade.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: I should have picked a younger man.
And can you slide that up so the yellow highlighted part would be readable, please"
Can you identifY that, Ray, for the people watching it?
MR. BELLOWS: There's no highlighted--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That one didn't have highlighting on it as we passed it along, Mr. Kolflat.
COMMISSIONER CARON: J.D., would you come up and get the yellow highlighted one and save us?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Give me that other one back, please, too.
What I'd like you to refer to is the yellow highlighted part which pertains to the detennination of a hardship.
Relative to a variance, a legal hardship exists only in those cases where the property is virtually unusable or incapable of
yielding a reasonable return. Replacement of this sign does not meet this standard of hardship.
And for your infonnation, that memorandum is to the Board of County Commissioners dated January 23rd, 2006, and is
authored by JeffKlatzkow as an interpretation of what constitutes a legal hardship.
This in no way can I see as construed as a legal hardship whatsoever.
Furthermore, the variance will not be in the minimum allowing a reasonable use of land, building or structure since the
permitted sign is 13 percent larger than the existing actual sign. In other words, there's -- room on that permitted sign that he has is
to enlarge the sign, if you would like, and also add more text to it.
Granting the variance will definitely confer on the applicant a special privilege denied to others in the area. Granting the
variance will not be in hannony with the intent and purpose of the LDC, which is to prevent the proliferation of signage.
Continuing: There are no natural or physically induced conditions that ameliorate the goals and objectives ofthe
regulation, such as natural preserves, lakes, golf courses, et cetera.
Lastly: In granting a variance, the four signs concentrated in a small area would create the impression of a
commercialized area in the center of residential districts to the south, north and east and be inconsistent with the Growth
Management Plan.
The CCPC is charged to consider these eight guidelines and evaluative criteria, and I think we should follow these as is
our direction.
Based on the preceding analysis, I believe we have no other choice than to deny this variance. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Midney?
COMMISSIONER SCHtFFER: What about me?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Oh, I didn't know you wanted to comment.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I thought you were going to run down the line.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Only to those that raised their hand, but go ahead, Brad. I'm sony.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Anyway, first of all, I don't really think there's four signs here. There's two signs here.
One is the main, the Naples Grande sign, the other one is the Strip House that's floating around.
I'm going to be voting against the motion, because I believe we could find a location for that beyond the columns inside
the property. And if the motion fails, I'll be making a motion to that effect.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Mr. Midney?
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: I'll also be voting against the motion for the reasons that I stated.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ms. Caron?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah, I believe that for the purposes of making this detennination, Mr. Kolflat, that we
are adhering to the guidelines that we are supposed to be adhering to.
The main sign is not an issue. Welre not approving the outside sign, the separate freestanding restaurant sign. And I
think that the columns with the letter "N" on them, which have been there forever and a day, I consider them merely architectural
features and not signage. So I believe that what staff is supporting is the way to go. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. VigliottiO
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Would the motion maker want to add the fact that if the hotel does change the sign,
they can change the "Nils and the "W'lts or "QllIS or whatever may be down the road, rather than come through this process again?
COMMISSIONER CARON: I think it's unnecessary right now to do that. I don't think the Naples Grande is going
away, and if and when thal's necessary, then whoever can--
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Then they've got to come in for another variance?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah, but it will be somebody else and they'll have to deal with whatever the issues are.
It's -- you know.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Again, I have to repeat, I'm not a big fan of signs, but a small sign is a little price to
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pay for another empty restaurant. We have a lot of empty restaurants and it doesn't look good. We're a tourist town. When tourists
come down and see all these empty restaurants, it doesn't help anybody.
Unemployment, people lose jobs, we lose taxes. I think it should go through just as is.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray"
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I had been hoping that the representative of the Grande would have offered to include
the sign on the sign that's within the -- denoting the Grande.
Not doing that, I joined in the motion to accept what those three signs -- or I agree that monwnents, the obelisks, are --
they're just monograms. The true sign is in the back.
We're complying with the LDC by hearing this and evaluating it. And irrespective of the fact that we're losing
businesses, that's happening throughout the country. No one likes to see that. But we do have some rules about how we want our
community to look, and in my view I think a restaurant that serves the Grande should be clearly more contained within its
property. And I've said it three times.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Wolfley?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I just have a question. Should the vote all be in favor of Ms. Caron's initiative and I
vote against it and it passes, will that mean that it looks like I didn't want any signs there at all? I would only be voting for what
the hotel wants, in other words, both signs, the monograms aside, the two signs, inside and outside the columns.
I'm in agreement, I just think the signs ought to stay the way they are. If I vote against it, will it -- when it goes to the
commissioners, are they going to know that I wanted all signs or think that I didn't want any?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: First of all, the motion was to support staffs recommendations.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Exactly, which is--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So you need to know that's what the motion's for.
The record speaks for itself. If you have objections and you state them on record, that's fine.
Mr. Bellows, you had a comment?
MR. BELLOWS: Yeah. I just wanted to add that we would note in the executive summary to the board your concern.
And if you just were in favor of the other signage but not the Strip House or the other way around, we would reflect that.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ms. Homiak?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Yeah, I'm in favor of the motion as it is, but I don't know ifit could be amended or -- I
don't know, maybe Bmd said he was going to make another motion after that that the Strip House sign be included on the Naples
Grande sign?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I think that can be done without a variance.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: If they can, they can, or if they don't, they don't?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It can be done without a variance. So there's no need -- I mean, if that's the motion, it's still
moot, because they could combine the signs and do that anyway. I think that's part of what Ms. Caron's argwnent was.
But I mean, Ray or somebody, is that a true statement or not?
MR. MOSS: Yes, it is, they could put that infoonation on the existing Naples Grande Beach Hotel sign.
And in fact, that sign can even be enlarged a little bit to include the text.
CHAtRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Wolfley, wait till Ms. Homiak gets done.
MR. MOSS: And that could be done according to the LDC with no variance required.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: All right, thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Now, Mr. Vigliotti, then Mr. Wolfley, then Mr. Schiffer.
COMMISStONER VIGLIOTTI: If the petitioner would suggest that he would take the Strip House sign and put it next
to the Naples Grande --
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I don't think it would look good.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: You don't suggest thatO
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I don't think it would look good.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Because I know, Brad, you had suggested that?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Vigliotti, any changes to the nwnber of signs or the size of the signs would have to come
back through the process. So you may want to suggest that today, but we wouldn't know the outcome of that till it went back to
staff to analyze it as to what variances may be needed. The distances would change because you now have two signs instead of
one.
I'm not saying it's wrong or right, I'm just saying we can't reengineer it here at this meeting today, so--
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I thought that's where Brad was going.
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NovemBer 6, 2008
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: He might. But we're not discussing Brad's motion right now, we're still discussing Ms. Caron's.
And Mr. Wolfley, I think you were next, then Brad, then Ms. Caron.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Yes, sir. I was just going to say, John-David, is there any restrictions to --I mean, in
other words, they can take the Strip House Restaurant or just the Strip House and put it underneath their Naples Grande sign?
MR. MOSS: It has to be on the face of that sign.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: On the face of it, but it could be red, it could be--
MR. MOSS: Right, right.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: -- exactly like the --
MR. MOSS: There's no problem with the way it's contained in the exhibit.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Okay. And that would be his fallback position ifhe had to take the sign that's outside
the pillars, he could do that?
MR. MOSS: He could mount it on the face of that sign, 00-00.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And John, stay there.
My point is be careful what you wish for. He could make that sign bigger, too, correct? He may not be -- it's a huge
property. So I mean, what you may wind up with here is between these beautiful monogrammed signs you have a billboard right
in the center there.
So I'm still a fan of the separate sign walking around near it, but enough on that.
CHAtRMAN STRAIN: Ms. Caron?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Well, I think that -- you know, that extreme is sort of a red herring, because they are
obviously not going to do anything to affect their main business in a detrimental way.
They have the right to increase the size of the Naples Grande signage without a variance. They have the right to put the
Strip House on the Naples Grande signage as it exists right now today and/or on an extended sign.
So the Strip House has -- and the Naples Grande all have options, and so I would hope I would get support for the
neighborhood.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And I have just a comment. And Ray, I may need your reading on this, or JD.'s.
So I understand the motion, staffs recommendation is to approve variance one, two and three, which involve signs A, B
and C, and to modifY variance seven rrom four to three; is that correct?
MR. MOSS: (Nods head affIrmatively.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Could you say yes for the record so we know--
MR. MOSS: I'm sony. Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, thank you.
With that in mind, I will support the motion. I don't -- and the reasons I will support it is in reference to what I don't see
qualifies sign D. I see no need for sign D, no special conditions, no hardship, no unreasonable uses left if it's denied, it would
confer a special privilege, there are no natural conditions that dictate the need for it, and it is inconsistent with the intent and
purpose ofthe LDC.
Now we've all been heard, we've all voiced our opinions. I'm going to ask for a motion -- we have a motion and it's been
seconded.
Mr. Kolflat, do you have something else?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Could you restate the motion, please.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ms. Caron made a motion to support staffs recommendations.
COMMISSIONER CARON: To support staffs recommendations.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And I'm going to ask by signifYing aye and raising your hand.
All those in favor of the motion, signifY by saying aye and raising your hand.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: This is for or opposed?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: This is--
COMMISSIONER CARON: This is for the motion.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- for the motion to support staffs recommendation.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Aye.
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November 6, 2008
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: One, two, three, four, five.
All those opposed')
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: One, two, three, four.
Motion carries 5-4.
Sir, you got three and a half. So good luck with the BCe.
MR. HANSEN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you.
We have about 20 minutes before a break. It would be a good time to finish up the consent agenda item.
Mr. Hancock, are you here?
MR. SCHMITT: Mr. Chailll1an?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: There he is.
MR. SCHMITT: Just for clarification, I don't know ifMr. Koltlat was confused. For the record, the staff
recommendation was for the signs except for the Strip House sign. That was a recommendation of denial.
And I thought that's what you had --
MR. BELLOWS: It was the other way around. It was approval of the signs but not the steakhouse.
MR. SCHMITT: Right. It was approval of all the signs, excluding the steakhouse sign, which was a denial. And I
thought that's what he put on the record. But then he voted against it. So I just want to make sure and clarifY that that was your
extent.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Koltlat, the motion was to approve the big sign that says Naples Grande, the one that was
in the center of your position, and the two on the side and that's all.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: I was against the motion.
MR. MOSS: He was against the column signs. Is that correct, Commissioner?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Yes. I'm against it because it's not in accordance with the guidelines that the County
Commission has given us to follow in coming up with eight criteria --
MR. SCHMITT: I understand.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: -- to support at this time.
No one has defined to me what a true hardship is that violates what was told me by Jeff Klatzkow in that memorandum
that this is not a true hardship.
MR. SCHMITT: Okay. Just for clarification. Thank you.
Item #8B
PETITION: CU-2007-AR-12619, K.O.V.A.C ENTERPRISES - CONTINUED
CHAJRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, sir.
Mr. Hancock and J.D., have you guys come back with some language for the consent agenda item involving the
K.O.V.A.e. Enterprises?
MR. HANCOCK: While J.D. switches from one to the other quickly--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Now, before we go too far, we nOlll1ally don't swear in since this is data that's going to go on
record. Would you mind swearing both of them in for this matter.
(Speakers were duly swam.)
MR. HANCOCK: Mr. Chailll1an, I've put some language together and worked with John-David while he was handling
the item before you previously. And I think we've come to something that contains the spirit and intent of what this body directed
us the last time.
Through the assistance of the BCC administrative staff what we've done is kind of retyped items seven and eight on the
conditions page. Item seven to read: To screen views ofthe piles and to help prevent dust from traveling off site, a Type B buffer
shall be provided along the site's southern and southwestern boundaries at the interface of abutting uses.
Where this buffer overlaps, the .37-acre preserve type B minimum plantings shall be maintained at all times within the
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buffer area.
The balance of the creative preserve shall consist of approved native mid-story and canopy species to achieve the
desired buffering for properties to the south.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay.
MR. HANCOCK: Item eight, the only change to item eight was to change 250 to ISO as the third word of the first line
as it reads before you today. And I do have a copy for you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Mr. Wolfley?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Did you get the measurement of that, in quotes, throat?
MR. HANCOCK: Yes, sir, it is ISO feet.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: That's what I thought. No problem.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And the property line dimension is?
MR. HANCOCK: That's the 150 feet.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, thank you.
MR. HANCOCK: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, so I think the revised language is more in line with what we had recommended. And
certainly the 150 now is.
So does anybody have any problems with this item with the recommended language that's on the screen in front of us?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Nope.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, it's a consent item. All those in favor of the motion? I know two people are going to be
abstaining. All those in favor, signifY by saying aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye.
MR. WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries, what is that eight to--
COMMISSIONER MlDNEY: Seven.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Seven.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Seven to nothing. Two abstaining, Mr. Murray and Mr. Midney abstained.
And I have the copy of this for you when we get going.
Okay, with that, we normally take a break around 10:00. We'll take it now since it's a good time in between, and we'll
come back and resume with the second item on our agenda which is the boat lift, Peter D. Donahue boat lift. So we'll take a break
until five minutes after 10:00.
(Recess.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, welcome back from break, everyone.
Next item up on today's agenda is Petition BD-2008AR- 13305, Peter D. Donahue, requesting the addition of a boat slip
to slip number one in an existing 24-slip (sic) dock.
All those wishing to participate in this hearing, please rise and be sworn in by the court reporter.
(Speakers were duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Disclosures on the part of the planning commission?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: I went and visited the site and I also discussed the matter with Mr. Donohue, who is the
owner of the property.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, anybody else?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, with that, will the applicant please proceed with the presentation.
MR. NELSON: Good morning. It's still morning, right? Okay, good.
Ben Nelson, for the record, Nelson Marine Construction.
We've applied here on this multi-slip facility to -- for an extension of 10 feet in order to put a boat lift in an existing slip.
And I'm going to switch gears on you here.
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This is a representation. You can see to the far -- right over towards -- this is going well. Right over towards this end
right here is where the boat lift, proposed boat lift is right here on that end of the facility.
All these finger piers that you see there are all around 12 feet long. They're considerably short.
There's a restriction there that the boats can't be any longer than 22 feet long, the hull ofthe boat, in this area here.
And stick with me here. I'll need your help again there.
This is the drawing, kind of a closeup of the drawing. It shows the positioning of the boat lift right there, the proposed
lift. This is the existing finger pier right here. And you can see there that what we're doing it is actually sticking out an extra 10
feet into the water.
At the bottom there, you see that shows the water depths. The water depth at the bow of the boat, whether it's sitting in
the water or whether it's on the lift, of course, is approximately 1.8. That's how deep it is at low tide, which is around one foot,
nine inches deep.
Towards the stern of the boat it's going to be about three-and-a-halffeet deep. So that's the view there.
I'm now going to put a drawing there that shows how the boat sits on the lift, would sit on the lift. If I do that right.
Whoops, upside down.
All right. As most of you know that have a boat, the center of gravity ofa boat is not in the middle of the boat, it's about
two-thirds towards the back because of the motor. And so when it sits on a boat Iifl, that has to be towards the center of the lifl.
That's the 22-foot boat, and it shows how it would sit in the slip.
Now, this is how it would sit in the slip regardless if there was a Iifl or not.lfthere was no lifl there, it's going to float in
the water there. And as you can see, it's going to protrude into the waterway that distance regardless. Regardless if there's a lift
there, regardless if there's not a lifl there, that's how the boat will sit there. The applicant just wishes to put a boat lifl there for the
obvious reasons that anybody would want a boat lift in Florida. There's sufficient room there, there's sufficient depth for his boat.
And the next one I want to show you is the positioning. I don't know how good an aerial this is. I'd like to show you how
it's positioned -- yeah, see how that shows up. Yeah, not too bad.
All right, you can see the arrow that says project site. That's where it is in relationship to the bay. There's Hickory
Harbor down this way is another condominium with some other slips.
The route for the boats to come along is come along towards the back of these slips along here and then go out towards
the bay out this way.
So this particular site is at the very far end down towards this way. That's probably almost as far away from there as you
could possibly get.
Just a couple additional things here. In my opinion, I think in staff's opinion -- staff, I won't speak for you, I'll let you do
your own speaking. But I don't believe there will be any impact on view here, I don't think there will be any impact on navigation.
The bow's going to be sitting like I said on approximately one foot, nine inches of water, the stern in about 3.6 inches of
water. And basically with the width ofthe waterway there, at around 3, ISO feet, I don't think that a 10-foot protrusion is too much
to ask for. And I would answer any questions you'd have.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Questions of the applicant?
Mr. Kolflat?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Yes, Mr. Nelson.
MR. NELSON: Hello.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: I have some questions, but in the interest of time I've written them out, so I'll read them
through so we can move through them quickly.
Does slip number one area and structure revert to a single-family lot upon purchase from the condominium? A little
interest in the ownership here. Because originally all of these boat slips were owned by the condominiwn. And I understand Mr.
Donahue now ovms just slip number one.
MR. NELSON: I'll take your word for it. I think that that's exac --I think that's what it is. Mr. Donahue outright owns
slip number one?
Yes.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Does that include also the land underneath the water, the submerged land?
MR. NELSON: I know that the state does not have any deed or any rights to these lands. The state doesn't. So I don't
know about owning the land underneath the slip. But it's just kind of a fee simple thing, I think.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Well, the width of the land that now is owned then by Mr. Donahue, is that about twice
the width of the boat?
MR. NELSON: The width?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Width ofthe land if you --
MR. NELSON: It would just be the individual slip I think is what it would be.
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November 6, 2008
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: So it would be as wide as between the two piers there, that's--
MR. NELSON: Yeah, halfWay between the two piers, yeah.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: The reason I ask is the criteria addresses single-family units as well as multi-family unit
slips. And this then I think would fall under the single-family one, because it would be just one person that owns it.
MR. NELSON: It would probably more likely still fit under the multi-family. That's the way it was treated through the
process, and it's been treated as a multi-family slip, so -- but I can let staff address that probably better than I.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Well, one thing in looking at this that concerned me when I went down and inspected it
was whether this petition would set a precedence for installation of similar lifts in the other 23 similar slips.
In other words, is there any protection on that from the --
MR. NELSON: Well, I can't speak as to setting a precedent. I think each individual one would have to be treated as its
own entity there.
I want to show you another aerial to give you some idea of what we're dealing with here. Hold on. I'm going to get
seasick here watching you do that.
Okay, this is kind of interesting. This is a view of the bay right here. If I make a mistake and point out the wrong site --
can you zoom in a little closer? Okay, that's good.
There are a considerable number of boat slips with docks. These two -- this is weird. These are further down the way.
And these particular slips down here all have boatlifts on them. Every one of them have boatlifts. And these are further down the
way.
The subject site -- this is hard to do. The subject site is right around in this area right here. None of these have boatlifts
that I'm aware of. But there are, you know, a few boats in there. So this would be the first boatlift in this slip.
But all of these, all of these down this way, as far as I can tell, have boatlifts. So it's not unusual for that general vicinity
for the multi slips to have that, just not at this one place.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Well, since all those 24 slips are so similar, my only concern was the possibility of
establishing a precedence in this petition that would prevail. I recognize they would have to corne before the commission for
approval, but still they would possibly -- with precedence.
MR. NELSON: Okay.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: But let me go on, if I could, another question I had on this.
The application, Page 3 of 8, calls for application to be accompanied with the site plan to scale showing dimensions and
locations of existing and proposed dock structures.
The plan that you had there before, if you could go back to the overhead plan of the slip? That's the one.
Does that -- the dimensions that are missing there, and in the interest oftime I've scaled and would like confirmation or
correction for the record of what those dimension are. As I've scaled it. the existing finger pier widths are three feet wide. Do you
concur with that?
MR. NELSON: Yes.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: The existing finger pier lengths are 12 feet, four inches long. Do you concur with that?
MR. NELSON: Yes.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: The existing finger pier separations, that is, the distance between the two piers, each
pier, is 20 feet, do you concur with that?
MR. NELSON: No, they vary. They vary considerably. They go anywhere from 20 -- I believe are 20 feet anywhere to
22 feet along there. We have a survey that kind of shows those distances. So they're not real symmetrical.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Now, if you could put on that overhead that shows the cross-section elevation of this
slip. There it is, down in the bottom.
Now, I scaled off that lift height, the top oflhat lift height is 10 feet above the finger tier (sic). Do you concur with?
MR. NELSON: No. Generally the lift -- the top of the beam is around six feet to six foot, three inches above the deck.
That's the usual heighth.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: So this would be six feet rather than 10 feet.
MR. NELSON: Approximately six feet.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Well, according to the scale I came up with 10 feet, so I appreciate the correction.
Now, on the other overhead that you had, not the aerial but the other one that shows the waterfront site plan. If you
could you put that up.
MR. NELSON: This one?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Yes, that one.
Now, how many spaces in there between the finger piers do you come up with?
MR. NELSON: Looks like two, four, six, eight, 10, 12, ]4, 16, 18,20,22 in between the finger piers. And then if you
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November 6, 2008
count the outsides of them, it would be 24.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAI: So that's how you come with the 24. One boat is moored on the outside of that last
finger pier; is that correct?
MR. NELSON: Yes, there's opportunity for that.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA I: Even though the catwalk does not go that far.
MR. NELSON: Yes.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA I: Well, the drawing shows there I think of276 feet.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: 86.
MR. NELSON: Yeah, 286 feet.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA I: But ifeach finger pier was three feet wide and there were 12 slips so to speak for 24
width, that would be 276 instead of286. Well, it's not an important amount because it's so much --
MR. NELSON: Yeah, like I said, they're pretty inconsistent, so--
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA I: All right, what is the length of boat of the LOA?
MR. NELSON: I beg your pardon? LOA?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA I: What was the LOA of the boat that you're going to put there.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Length overall.
MR. NELSON: Oh, I'm a marine contractor, I don't know that, right"
CHAIRMAN SIRAIN: Mr. Kolllat hates acronyms.
MR. NELSON: Whoops. So much for my 3D-year resume there. I'm going to mark that out there.
Ihe overall length of the boat probably would be, including the motor, would be about 24 feet. We figure 22-foot boat,
which is the hull, the maximwn hull length that you could have in there, with another two feet of motor sticking out would
probably be about 24 feet.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA I: So the LOA would be 24 feet. And the draft is what"
MR. NELSON: I think the hull depth is going to be about one foot, six inches, the actual hull depth. And then, you
know, with outboard motor, you know, you bring the motor up or down, probably the maximum depth for the motor would be
three feet, if you put it down.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: So it could be anywhere from two and a half feet to three foot?
MR. NELSON: Foot and a halfto three feet.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA I: Now, this 7,DOO-pound Alamo hoist that you reference kind of intrigues me, because
I've had a lot of boats in my lifetime, but I've never seen --
MR. NELSON: I'll give you my card before I leave.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAI: Can you describe this Alamo hoist that you're going to have there?
MR. NELSON: Yeah, it's a standard four-post lift. And what it is, there's an alwninum cradle with bunks and it's a cable
lift, electrical, so it picks it up. You come in and there are wooden bunks that support it like a boat trailer. So yeah, it's a pretty
standard lift for the area.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA I: Are there straps underneath or hard copy?
MR. NELSON: You can do either one. In this case we're assuming that we're going to be able to do the alwninwn
cradle. But there is an option to do the straps there if the water depth is really shallow. You know, ifit becomes a problem, we can
just put straps underneath it.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA I: And the overall height would be the same regardless of what it was--
MR. NELSON: Regardless.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA I: Will any maintenance or repair activities be perfonned with the vessel in the elevated
position?
MR. NELSON: No, it would be virtually impossible for that to happen, unless it's just minor, you know, inside the boat.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA I: So you plan no maintenance activity there.
MR. NELSON: I wouldn't think that there would be anything there.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA I: Will the lift have a canopy top?
MR. NELSON: No.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAI: Could it have a canopy top in the future?
MR. NELSON: Not without pennission ofthe association. And I doubt that that would happen. As a matter offact, I
could pretty much guarantee that that wouldn't happen.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA I: 1 have just a few more, if I can get my papers in order
You submitted with your petition an agreement with the Department of Environmental Protection. Do you recall that?
MR. NELSON: Yeah, sure.
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COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Could you turn to that? Because I will have some questions on that.
MR. NELSON: While I'm looking for it, go ahead -- oh, I found it, look at that. That was an accident. Go ahead.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: It has a big seal on the center, the State of Florida.
MR. NELSON: Yep. Yes, sir, go ahead.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Okay, under one there under that agreement, it states that this condominiwn association
in putting the slips in will have construction of 16 boat slips. Now, that differs from the 24 that you're putting in.
MR. NELSON: Okay, yeah, you're looking -- we've got several DEP agreements. The DEP exemption that we have is a
different docwnent. You're looking at the one that is for the docks itself, the older agreement?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: I'm looking at the one you put with your packet that I received.
MR. NELSON: I think both of them were put with the packet? Yeah, I think both ofthem were put there.
There are actually two DEP agreements. The one is for the original pern,its for the dock. And then the other one, we
actually went and got an exemption from the DEP for the individual lift. That one's included in the packet as well.
But go ahead and ask me the question.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: There was a discrepancy between the 16 and the 24 boat slips that concerned me. I
mean, you've got two docwnents. One here, your petition says 24 boat slips and the State Department document says 16 boat
slips. My concern being has the Department of Environmental Protection reviewed the 24-s1ip one? That's on item one on the first
page of that --
MR. NELSON: Okay. Yeah, I can't account for that, because tbe drawing that accompanies that does correctly indicate
the 24 slips, so--
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: I have a copy here, if you'd like to--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Sir, I'm sorry, we can't have comment from the audience, unless you want to come up and use
the speaker. You're more than welcome to.
MR. NELSON: Yeah, anyway--
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Well, I have trouble with the lack of consistency between the documents that say the
nwnber of slips we're talking about.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, well, why don't we go on--
MR. NELSON: j think staff can probably help you with that question, if you want to go ahead and fmish with me and
then --
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Well, let's continue with the same docwnent.
Go to Page 2, down item 14 on the bottom of that. Do you have that?
MR. NELSON: Well, what's your question? Because I'm having a hard time finding any of this anyway. So go ahead
and ask me.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Well, I can let you use mine, if you want.
MR. NELSON: No, that's okay. Ask -- what would you like to know.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Well, it says only boats drawing 1.5 feet or less shall be allowed to moor at the docking
facility.
MR. NELSON: Yeah, j think this was a 1988 docwnent. It wasn't unusual for them at that particular time to put
restrictions on the hull depths.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: But does this docwnent still apply?
MR. NELSON: I don't believe it does. And when I talked to people at the DEP -- I don't believe it does at this particular
time, because the state lands doesn't really have jurisdiction over this particular body of water right now.
But regardless, I think the hull depth, the actual hull depth on this boat is consistent with that.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Well, the hull depth that you testified to is three feet--
MR. NELSON: 1.5 feet.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: And it says it must be less than --
MR. NELSON: Foot and a half.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: -- one and a halfto be used--
MR. NELSON: The hull depth is a foot and a half.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Koltlat, could you pull your speaker closer to you? I didn't know you're -- how long you're
going to take, but we need to be able to hear more of what you're saying.
COMMtSSIONER KOLFLAT: Okay.
Well, here again I'm concerned because one document says one thing and another document says a different time and
there's nothing that says that the Department of Environmental Protection docllll1ent no longer exists.
MR. NELSON: I do think it's consistent with that, though, I believe. And if this applicant's not consistent with it, then
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there's a whole lot of people in trouble down there. so --
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: That's all the questions I have, Mark.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schiffer, then Mr. Murray.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: One question I have, and you can -- you have a drawing that shows the property line.
The work you're going to be doing is over the property line for the condo. Is that a concern or is that--
MR. NELSON: No. And, you know, there is an inconsistency. Mark Allen's sW'Vey shows that property line out in the
water, but I believe it's Trigo drawing shows that it's not.
Here we go. You never can have enough paperwork here.
See, that was the original sW'Vey used for the deed pennit. And as you can see, it shows that it's not going to be when we
scaled that off there. So there is a little discrepancy in that positioning, so -- but regardless, regardless of where that property line
is, because state lands has no jurisdiction over it it doesn't matter.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. So you could build in--
MR. NELSON: Sure.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: -- over the line')
MR. NELSON: Absolutely. And it's not at all uncommon for that to happen.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Second question is, are you going to extend the dock itself, the wood walking surface?
MR. NELSON: No.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And then can you put up that one picture you have where that boat's sitting on the lift.
And in your request, you're measuring to the center line of the lift itself, the support for the lift. Should you be actually
asking for a little more area? Because I think -- and maybe John-David can answer this, but I think it's the actual boat length itself
that we have to establish here today.
MR. NELSON: I don't understand your question. Rephrase that, if you would.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Well, in other words, the dimension you're requesting takes you to the center line of
the lift pile.
MR. NELSON: Oh, I got you. I got you.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And you're actually going to go sticking out a little bit more. And just, in other words,
should we be adding a little bit more on there?
MR. NELSON: I don't know. That's a good question. The request was to -- for the request to be to the end of the piling
there. But ifthe boat's sticking out over the end of that, so--
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And all of your dimension are to the center of that pile so --
MR. NELSON: Yeah, center pile. So--
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: -- we might want to tweak--
MR. NELSON: -- I think that -- yeah. I think that it's a good point. And when we do these, we actually go to the outside
of the piling. So actually it wouldn't be done as drawn there. We always try to err on the side of safety and come back this way a
few inches, because there's nothing worse than being turned down and have to redo it because it was four inches over the line
there, so --
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And I'll wait for Ashley, because I think we might want to measure to the boat itself.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray?
COMMISSIONER MORRAY: Mr. Nelson, Commissioner Kolflat had a series of questions, and one of them that
piqued my interest, and you made a response when he asked you if there'll ever be a canopy and you said well, I don't think so, it
pretty well precludes that because of the condo.
MR. NELSON: Right.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: However, you also indicated that Mr. Donahue bought the property in fee. Does he not
have heir rights? I would assume that he does.
And my point here is this, and maybe it's answerable, and perhaps not. But in tenns ofthe condominium, I can't imagine
that the condominium association has any document that presumed that such an event would occur. And so I do not know. If he's
the owner of that, solitary owner of that particular one, I don't know that you can make that statement.
And it's important to us, and I'm not merely being picky. Because there have been requests for covers, and those
requests I believe this body agreed that those types of things can be put on there.
So you are basically saying that it can never happen. I think you need to go on the record to be absolutely certain that
you know that as a fact.
MR. NELSON: Well, I mean, what I'm basing that on is before -- it's been my experience that in these situation,
regardless if someone owns the slip or whether they just have first right to use it or whatever, you still -- we still had to get
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November 6, 2008
pennission from that condominium to put the lift in. Because it's the -- he doesn't own the dock. He just owns the rights to the slip
is what you own.
COMMtSS10NER MURRAY: So he doesn't own it in fee then.
MR. NELSON: He doesn't own the land or anything like that. He owns the slip.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay, well, then that's the mistake--
MR. NELSON: As I understand it.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay, then, it's a different story entirely.
MR. NELSON: Thank you for the question.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Midney?
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: I'm just curious, why does this slip need a lift and the other 23 in this section don't?
MR. NELSON: I think it just boils down to the other people haven't asked for one.
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: They're not intending to get a longer boat or a bigger boat than the other ones?
MR. NELSON: No, you know, I think it just varies in there. You'll see different size boats along in there. To be quite
frank with you, most people don't go through this process, they just go ahead and let their boats sit in the water rather than go
through the process. And my client here just wants to be able to pick his boat up.
These docks have been here for quite a long time, I guess since 1988 or whatever, and it's just -- it's more of a trend to
start adding these boatlifts. And unfortunately for this board, you probably see more of these throughout the county because of
that.
Most people, including the DE? -- the DE? would rather see you have the boat sitting out of the water than have it
sitting in the water. Just environmentally it's the best thing to do.
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: There's no restriction on boat length or boat draft here?
MR. NELSON: There's a restriction on boat length, the 22-foot hull length here.
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Thank you.
MR. NELSON: And like I said, there is the foot and a half hull depth restriction in that '88 DE? pennit.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions of the applicant"
Mr. Kolflat, and Ms. Caron next.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Could you put that overhead again showing the entire frontage of dockage with the
catwalk on it?
MR. NELSON: That one?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: No, the other one.
That's the one. Y cah, that's correct.
Now, as I understand it from being -- visiting and talking with Mr. Donahue that the channel from the boats down to the
east of this would traverse along the front of this. And which number slip would they make the left-hand turn to go out of the bay?
Can you identity that by how many from his slip there would be to make a left-hand turn"
MR. NELSON: Well, being on open waterway and depending on the tide, there's all kinds of different ways to get
across that bay. But, you know, a lot of people would probably argue that they will hug the fronts ofthose docks almost down
towards the end and then cut across wherever they can.
I want to put a picture on here, it's not a very good one, that shows a boat coming in. And I'm not going to tell you that
this is typical, because there probably may be no typical way to really come in and out ofhere, but let me put it up here. Or let me
let him put it up there, since I don't know what I'm doing.
Now, the slip in question is right over here. Right about there. That's where the slip is. And you can see that the bank is
all the way over towards this site over here.
So people will actually come along here probably and then turn at some point. And you know what? The fact of the
matter is -- I'd like to point out again that whether there's a lift there or whether there's just a boat there, it really -- the boat sticks
out further than the lift would. So they're going to have to drive past the boat, even if it's sitting in the water or if it's sitting on the
lift. In my mind, regardless.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: But my understanding with Mr. Donahue when I visited with him down there was that
people coming from the left side, which is the east, would go along the front there but they would make a left-hand turn to get out
of the way long before they reached his slip number one. It might be slip number five, slip number six, slip number eight.
And my question was: Can you identity for me which number slip it is they would be making the left-hand turn?
MR. NELSON: No, I can't. Because you know what" People are -- some people are going to insist on going all the way
down past the end and some people are going to probably turn earlier than that. And people here in the audience will probably tell
you where they're likely to turn at.
But I would argue that it's probably not relevant, mainly because if there's going to be a 22-foot boat there sitting in the
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slip, and there is going to be one sitting there, they're going to have to drive past it one way or the other. It's -- it just is.
Whether there's a lift -- if you don't approve the lift today, the boat's going to sit in the water and they're going to have to
drive past the boat. If you approve the lift today, they're going to have to drive past it.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: The point I'm trying to make in defense of your client, Mr. Donahue, is that boat traffic
coming from the left will make a left-hand turn long before it gets near his slip or boat. So the property of interfering with any
kind of a channel, whether it's chartered or not chartered or just using a general nature is very remote and not possible.
MR. NELSON: Yes. And I think that this boat here probably represents Mr. Donahue's opinion of where that they -- the
traffic usually goes.
And if you -- it's probably -- the direction that the boat's coming in at, they're probably going to be ending up
intersecting wbere the boats are that you see sitting in the slips, it's probably going to come in probably at that fourth or fifth slip
there.
So it's probably consistent with the conversation that you had with Mr. Donahue.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Right. Thank you.
MR NELSON: You're welcome.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions before we go to staff report?
Ms. Caron. Sorry.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah, looking at that picture right there, none of the boats in those slips come out beyond
the end of their slip other than the motors themselves kind of hang, it looks like.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: They do.
MR. NELSON: I've got another picture. An actual picture here. It's kind of hard to tell from that angle, to tell you the
truth. But I can guarantee you, they're not 12 feet long. Typical boat there is going to be -- very seldom are you going to see a boat
shorter than 18 feet long anymore. I mean, it's possible. But usually they'll be 18 to 22 feet long. So here's a picture -- my lovely
assistant. Thank you very much.
MR. BELLOWS: Vanna.
MR. NELSON: You don't pay him for this, do you?
COMMISSIONER CARON: That is a much better picture.
MR NELSON: Now -- and you can see the end of the dock there and you can see some of the other vessels down the
way sticking out, pontoon boats. other boats sticking out past there. So it's just typically that's what you'll see there.
I'm not going to tell you it's the best dock design in the world. It's obviously not. I can't tell you why they were made to
that length there, but obviously they weren't anticipating 12-foot long boats. I mean, I don't think that that was -- because they put
the restriction at 22 feet long. But there you have it, so --
COMMISSIONER CARON: I did want to just clarity one thing that you said, that the draw on Mr. Donahue's boat
would be anywhere from 1.5 to three.
MR. NELSON: Approximately, yes.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Okay. I think Mr. Kolllat is right, you are under a DEP agreement that says specifically
that only boats drawing 1.5 or less, not or more, not or three, shall be allowed to moor at the docking facility for the life of the
facility. So Mr. Donahue should just be aware of that. That's the agreement he's under right now.
MR. NELSON: Right. And that isn't the only restriction on there, too. There are signage and all kinds of things that--
COMMISSIONER CARON: Absolutely.
MR. NELSON: -- the condominiwn is responsible for doing there.
COMMISSIONER CARON: It goes on for 17 or 18 items.
MR. NELSON: Yeah, there's a lot.
COMMISSIONER CARON: I just want to make sure he's aware and that his boat is complying.
MR. NELSON: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody else before we go to staff report?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Ashley?
MR. NELSON: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, sir.
MR. NELSON: Let me clean up my mess here.
MS. CASERTA: Good morning. For the record, Ashley Caserta, Department of Zoning and Land Development
Review.
This is an existing multi-slip facility, and there's no additional decking being proposed.
They're proposing to protrude an additional 10 feet. And J just want to put on the record that the protrusion is only for
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November 6, 2008
slip number one, and any additional lifts that would be proposed to go out into the water further than what is existing would be
required to come back for another dock extension.
Commissioner Schiffer, your point that the vessel protrudes into the water past the lift would be applicable. The dock
facility does include the vessel. And the protrusion requested should include the vessel. That was not shown within the
application. That's the first time that's been shown.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Mr. Chair"
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, Mr. Murray had his hand up first. But if you want to respond to her direct inquiry of your
comment, go right ahead.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So Ashley, essentially the dimensions shown should be greater? Because it does have
to include the actual boat itself, correct?
MS. CASERTA: Yes. Within the application, the protrusion was shown to the edge of the lift. And there was no vessel
shown sticking out past the lift.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I think actually it's shown to the center line of the support for the lift, the pile.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Pull the mic. closer to you, Brad.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yeah, it was shown to the center line of the support for the pile.
So, I mean. are we allowed to lengthen that at this hearing or does that affect the advertising, or what's the --
MS. CASERTA: I'll have to check into the advertising. County Attorney, I'm not sure if you know that, or--
MR. KLA TZKOW: We didn't have any issue with the advertising. We did look into it.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, she's suggesting if it has to go to 13 feet in lieu of 10 feet, is that going to change the ad.
MR. KLATZKOW: No, this -- okay.
MS. CASERTA: That could be revised within the resolution and would come back.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: All right, thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yes, hi, Ashley.
Reference Page 8, please.
MS. CASERTA: Of the application"
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Of your staff report. Staff recommendations page.
MS. CASERTA: Yes.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Just a couple of questions on there. I noted on here items one through four. Are they not
already there? Is that not already in place, those requirements? Reflectors, dock numbers, manatee protection signs.
MS. CASERTA: Well, two through four would be number one we added, which reads the extension is granted
exclusively for slip number one, and wouldn't apply to the rest of the slips.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, that I can appreciate. But my question there would be the question of ownership.
I think it's more exclusive right, but that's all right.
But regarding corresponding penn its, reflectors, dock numbers, manatee protection signs, I recognize you just put them
in there to be sure, but are they not there already?
MS. CASERTA: They should be. I didn't check for them --
COMMtSStONER MURRAY: You didn't visit the location?
MS. CASERTA: But yes, it's an existing facility, and those requirements would be in place.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay, under number five, we're speaking about all prohibited exotic species, as such
term may now or hereinafter be established in the LDC, shall be removed from the subject property.
Ifhe ha" exclusive use ofa slip, what exotic species do you expect him to have that he'd have to deal with? Because this
one relates directly -- to you said exclusive use. I know itls been asserted ovmership, but let's say exclusive use. What exotic
species would he be dealing with? Especially hereinafter.
You're effectively requiring of this individual or subsequent exclusive right to use person, in perpetuity you're saying
that they have to effectively comply with a certificate of completion? What all are we doing there?
MS. CASERTA: That is a standard environmental stipulation.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I know.
MS. CASERTA: And that would be -- I guess it's subject to the entire property.
Susan Mason may be able to answer that a little more clearly.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, I think it needs to be answered or it needs to be removed, quite frankly. I don't
think it belongs there.
And then also under number seven we talk again about prohibited exotic vegetation shall be removed from the site.
I recognize that it's a matter of some convenience to take things rrom -- and put them in. But I think in this case we
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November 6, 2008
probably shouldn't do that. Susan?
MS. MASON: Good morning, again, for the record.
Removal of exotics is required for any type of development in the county, and maintenance in perpetuity is also a
requirement.
On a site like this where it's largely water, if it ever silted in there might be some exotics that would be removed. But I
would believe mostly the maintenance of the site. The property owner isn1t going to want any vegetation growing where his boat
slip is. He's going to keep it maintained and cleared so a boat could come in there.
It is a requirement of the LDe whether or not the condition was put in there that exotics would have to be removed.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I guess I must just have woken up, because honestly, I don't remember this being in any
of the boat dock set of recommendations.
MS. MASON: It's a standard part of our checklist. And I don't know if it always has been put in staff reports or not, but
it is a requirement.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, I don't know. In this case this gentleman is attempting to put in a lift. He already
has a right to use the water, and the posts between or whatever. I don't get the exotic species part of it.
But what I'm concerned about is the hereinafter portion of it that -- subject property shall be removed and prior to
issuance of required certificate of completion.
MS. MASON: Whenever the building department does inspections on anything, part oftheir review, and I believe
sometimes it's maybe even some staff from the engineering department, when they go out and do the reviews, they make sure --
excuse me, inspections -- that exotics are removed prior to C.O. or whatever kind of certificate of completion is--
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: In the water.
MS. MASON: Wherever it's done. I don't -- I don't know of any time there would be exotic vegetation in a boat slip
area. I doubt that it's --
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Why don't we just short-circuit this and drop -- and strike staff recommendations five and
seven.
COMMtSSIONER MURRAY: That's what I'm trying to get to.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I know, and I think you're right. And this is kind of silly, because the property in question is
boat slip number one, which is under water.
So Mr. Murray, you're 100 percent right, it's something that if we've missed it before I hope we don't miss it again. So
thank you for pointing it out.
Mr. Wolfley?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: You just did it.
MS. CASERTA: I believe that was requested by environmental staff to be added --
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. It's impractical and it doesn't surprise me.
MS. ASHTON: -- for this petition.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Are there any other questions of staff?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: With that, is there any public speakers, Ray.
MR. BELLOWS: No registered speakers.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody in the audience wish to speak? Sir, you have to come up and identifY yourself for the
record.
MR. DONAHUE: I'm the applicant, Peter Donahue.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Were you sworn in at the time we--
MR. DONAHUE: Yes, I was.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, thank you.
MR. DONAHUE: I have a few handouts that may be helpful, just kind of give you an overall picture of -- some of these
have already been put on the overhead.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Did your wife vote?
MR. DONAHUE: Yes, we voted.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Those are all pictures that have been on the overhead, yes, sir.
MR. DONAHUE: Correct, they have been.
I guess to answer Mr. Kolflat's question about setting a precedent, I am the only one in this situation where I O\VJ1 a slip.
The developer, when they originally built this condominium, set aside -- he sold two slips to individual unit owners.
And I own one slip. The other slip is to the west of me, at the very end.
So there will be no precedent set, because everything else is a limited common element. It is for the use -- and same
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thing at Little Hickory Bay. Any of the Wlit owners can use the slip, first come/first serve basis. And they cannot improve the slip
because they don't own it. It is a limited common element. I am the only one that owns the slip.
As far as the draft of my boat, it is not 1.5. That's almost a sailboat. I probably don't draw more than 12to 18 inches of
water. And with a boat down it may be 1.5.
But I own a 19-foot, six-inch Hurricane deck boat. I'm probably going to get a 20-foot fishing boat, but it will not have a
draft anywhere close to 1.5.
No canopy. I have no problem whatsoever, if you want to approve this with the restriction that there'll never be a canopy
added. I know that I own this slip subject to the rules and regulations of the condominium association. Anything else I would do
would have to be subject to the approval of the condominiwn board.
The main point I'd just like to point out is whether my boat is in the air or in the water, it will have the same distance off
the dock. And people do not come all the way down to my end of my dock to go out into that bay. There is plenty of room to twn
way before they get to my dock.
And again, whether it's in the air or in the water, it protrudes out the same distance.
And if you have any questions?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any questions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, sir.
With that, we'll close the public hearing and entertain a motion.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I'll make it.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I move we forward Petition BD-2008-AR-13305to the Board of County
Commissioners with a -- well, wait a minute, it ends here.
COMMISSIONER CARON: This is it.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: That we approve BD-2008-AR-13305, with the following revisions to the staff
recommendation.
I think changing the 10 feet to 13 feet. Changing the 54 feet to 57 feet. And 1 guess removal of four and seven --
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Five and seven.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Five and seven.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's the exotic language.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. Yeah, four looks like it on mine.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Four?
COMMtSSIONER SCHIFFER: I'm looking at the actual resolution.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Oh.
MS. CASERTA: It's different in the staff report and the resolution, I just realized. But I noted which ones you were
talking about.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Mr. Schiffer, if you go look at the exact resolution, you're right, it's four and seven. You
know what one we're -- the two exotic ones.
MS. CASERTA: Yes, I noted them. They're five and seven I believe in the staff report.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Second.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And Mr. Schiffer, did you have any more conditions?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: No, that's it.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Mr. Murray seconded.
Now discussion.
Mr. Koltlat?
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Yes, I'm going to vote for the motion for the following reasons: Section 5.03.06(E)(1)
states that boat dock facilities shall not protrude more than 20 feet into the waterway. The facility in this petition extends 54.5 feet
into the waterway. Therefore, primary criteria one is not met since the literal interpretation of 11.17.94 as the most restrictive
applies.
Primary criteria two is met since ample water depth is available for safe launching and mooring.
Primary criteria three is met since navigable channel turns away before reaching slip number one.
Primary criteria four is met.
Primary criteria five is met, since facility will not interfere with the use of neighboring docks.
Secondary criteria one is met, since slip is legal, nonconfonning in use, and lift addition is a modification of existing
use.
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November 6,2008
Secondary criteria two is met since facility allows reasonable access without the use of excessive deck area.
Secondary criteria three is met since owner of slip number one also owns upland of slip and boat width is greater than
those waters of no merit or barren.
Secondary criteria four is met, since large growth of mangroves along waterfront block out the view of the moored
boats; the beautiful stand of mangroves there that block out the view, if anyone has objection to a boatlift view.
Secondary criteria five and secondary criteria six are both met.
So l'1I be voting for the motion.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Is there any other comments on the motion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All those in favor, signifY by saying aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHtFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye.
MR. WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries 9-0.
Mr. Nelson, thank you, you won onc. By the way, was it Nelson Construction that built those original docks?
MR. NELSON: No, it was not.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I kind of knew you'd say no, but thank you.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: They're awful good looking, though.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, that takes us on to our third item. And it's going to take longer than possibly the time we
have before we break for lunch. Andjust in case it does, I want to make everybody aware that we take lunch about I I :45. We
tried a few times thinking we'll be finished with something and finish it before lunch, but it ended up taking till I :00 or 2:00. So
we tried to adhere to about II :45. So if we don't finish this by then, we may take a break, if we're not very close to the end of it.
Item #9D
PETITION: PUDA-2008-AR-13494, KITE KINGS LAKE. LLC
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: With that in mind, the next item up is PUDA-2008-AR-13494, Kite King's Lake LLC, the
King's Lake PUD.
All those wishing to testifY on behalf ofthis item, please rise to be sworn in by the court reporter.
(Speakers were duly swom.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, are there disclosures on the part of the planning commission?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yes. I had e-mail correspondence with Mr. Yovonovich.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Ms. Homiak?
COMMISSIONER HOMlAK: Yes, I've had a phone conversation with Mr. Yovonovich, an e-mail, and conversations
with Ron Cummings and ENCA, East Naples Civic Association board members.
COMMISSIONER CARON: I'm sorry, I should include Mr. Cummings.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Did you finish yours, Karen?
MR. SCHMITT: We couldn't hear her on the microphone.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, you want to repeat that, just so we're clear, then Ms. Caron's got a clarification. And then
Mr. Murray, then Mr. Vigliotti.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: I had a phone conversation with Mr. Yovanovich, an e-mail from Mr. Yovanovich,
phone conversations with Ron Cummings, and J also spoke with the East Naples Civic Association board members.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ms. Caron, did you want to clarifY?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yes, I just wanted to clarifY that I also received correspondence from Mr. Cummings.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray. did you have something?
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, 1<Jovembl~r 6, 2008
COMMISStONER MURRAY: I had a conversation with Mr. Yovanovich.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: So did I. I also had a conversation with Mr. Yovanovich.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, and I had a conversation with Mr. Cummings, Mr. Dnnnm, Mr. Yovanovich and Mr.
Arnold, all about issues that will be discussed and repeated here today.
No further disclosures, we'll go forward with the presentation by the applicant.
MR. YOVONOVICH: Good morning. For the record Rich Yovonovich, on behalf of the petitioner. With me are Eric
Strickland with Kite Realty and Wayne Arnold with Grady Minor and Associates that can answer any questions you might have
regarding the petition.
The King's Lake PUD was approved in the early Eighties, in 1982. And the list of permitted uses in the PUD are more
generally described versus the SIC Code method that we're doing now in PlJD's.
We were looking at putting in a health club in one of the vacant spaces within the existing shopping center, and the
existing generally described uses didn't clearly identify that use. So we are attempting to amend the PUD to add that specific use,
and at the same time put the PUD in a format that we're all accustomed to using, which is the use of SIC codes to describe the
types of uses that would be allowed on the property.
I believe you all have a November 5th memo to John-David Moss from Ron Cummings regarding the King's Lake
PUD. Do you all have that?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It was passed out to us t think sometime this morning.
MR. YOVONOVICH: Okay. And we've got it as well.
And what that does -- we got Mr. Cummings' October 29th letter indicating some uses they do not like, or did not like or
wanted some clarifications.
We responded to that with changes to the PUD document to address their concerns. And then they've produced this
November 5th memo basically saying okay, they've reviewed our response and they still have the following additional comments.
And you'll find those comments on Page 2 of the memo.
Essentially we don't have any objections to their requested revisions to the la'lt document we provided to them. So
except for there's two clarifications we want to make. They're item number seven on Page 2. And I think they agree is we can have
convenient stores, we just can't have convenient stores with gas pumps. So we would make it clear that we can have convenient
stores without gas pumps.
And then on item nine I think the correct terminology should be video tape rental except adult moves of any kind. I
don't know that x-rated is the right terminology, and I don't tllink they have any objections to that clarification to the videotape
rental uses.
So I hope -- I believe -- I think we're in agreement with the comments from our neighbors in King's Lake.
Again, we're just ttying to clarify the PUD to bring it up to the current terminology we're all used to using when looking
at what uses are allowed or not allowed on that commercial portion of the PUD.
We're available to answer any questions you may have regarding our request and our agreement with the community.
And of course we would come back at the consent agenda to make sure we properly clarifY the PUD to address the comments in
the November 5th memo from the residents.
And with that, that's our presentation, and we're available to answer any questions you may have. And staft's
recommending approval and I think the community is now comfortable. And we hope that you all can also recommend approval
to the Board of County Commissioners.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, are there questions?
Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Rick, just a quick question to start.
In our packet we got two copies of section six in strike-through version. Which one's the up-to-date one, and which ones
should we be using? They are a little different.
MR. YOVONOVICH: The one that goes with the ordinance in your packet, which would be -- I believe if we're in the
-- it would be the last three or four pages.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. So the standalone one, ignore that.
MR. YOVONOVICH: Yes. John-David says yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, let me suggest something. There was one attached to the staff report.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Right.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And the staff report is dated more recently than the document you submitted for your original
application. So I was wondering, wouldn't the one with the staff report reflect the most recent?
MR. YOVONOVICH: I believe what John -- can I ask John-David to make sure we're all on the same page, literally, to
address which version?
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November 6,2008
I believe it's the ordinance, the '08 ordinance, which is the last docwnent in my package. There's an '08 ordinance, and
then the strike-through follows that. And I believe that's what John-David is saying is the most recent version for us to work from
and then address the cormnunity's concerns from that docwnent.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's correct. When you said last, the last one in my packet is the one you provided originally
with the application.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Ours our -- we have a different order.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I wanted to make sure we weren't looking at that onc versus the one now you're saying is the
right one.
MR. YOVONOVICH: Okay, okay. Yeah, it's just an ordering.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, that's aliI had.
CHAtRMAN STRAIN: Ms. Caron"
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah. On the list of uses. under one, amusement and recreation services. Category 7911.
Are you intending disco techs"
MR. YOVONOVICH: Well, I would imagine that that probably faIls--
COMMISSIONER CARON: I mean, I know you're a party animal, but--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: How do you know that?
MR. YOVONOVICH: You know, I have no response to that.
COMMISSIONER CARON: His reputation precedes him.
MR. YOVONOVICH: I have -- well, that may be my twin.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Evil twin.
MR. YOVONOVICH: Yes, there's the evil side. It's the bad witch that's up here on this shoulder.
I would think that if we need to make that clarification. we can. But I would say that that's probably a bar, and we're
specifically prohibiting bars as an allowed use on this property.
So I would say a disco tech probably is in that category versus a dance studio, you know, ballet and things like that.
COMMISSIONER CARON: I'm just reading from the SIC Code book.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Okay.
COMMISSIONER CARON: So disco techs, except those serving alcohol, are listed there.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Let me put on -- we have -- if! could put on the visualizer, this is our proposed respouse to their
October 29th, which will have to be further refined, but we had already eliminated bowling alleys. In the seven 7911 we're only
asking for those four uses.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: She -- jost as I was concerned, the document that we had talked about that was at the end of our
packet, that's the one Ms. Caron was referring to. Your newer updated one did eliminate 7911.
MR. YOVONOVICH: Right, okay. Okay.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah, go ahead, because I had lots of notes from--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Ms. Homiak?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: At the neighborhood meeting, were all of these -- anything that was under on some of
these, like business services you have a nwnber of different SIC numbers there. Was every specific thing listed for the people to
see what was under them, or just the number?
MS. ARNOLD: If I might, I'm Wayne Arnold with Grady Minor.
And at the neighborhood informational meeting we had at the time filed the original application. We were schedule for
hearing, and that's the point at which we had that neighborhood informational meeting.
Since that time we have further restricted these uses. We've clarified some of those uses and further restricted them, but
I think we went over with them essentially what our application was. I don't believe we've --
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: But they didn't specially see every -- a list of everything that could possibly be there
under those numbers?
CHAIRMAN STRAtN: Well, the list that they passed out today reflects that they must have, because the nwnbers in
between are some of the numbers that show up on the list that don't show up on the read-out in front of us. So somebody
apparently went into the SIC and looked at those ranges, because some of the numbers that aren't here are from those ranges
within the numbers that you don't see.
MS. HOMIAK: Right.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So somebody had them. I don't know ifit was at the meeting, though.
MS. HOMIAK: What I'm asking, if the people saw them at the meeting, not--
MS. ARNOLD: I don't -- I mean, we had them with us, and there were a couple of people who were interested enough
and knew enough about StC codes to talk specifically about it.
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Since that meeting obviously somebody had contacted John-David, and we also made available to anybody who wanted
them electronic copies. I know our office provided copies to at least a couple of different residents who had e-mailed saying can
you please keep us up to date, so we've provided electronic copies to those people who requested it.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions"
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Just --
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Rich, in the strike-through, you're going to take out the minimum off-street parking
requirements. Essentially that means it defaults to the current Land Development Code: is that right?
MR. YOYONOVICH: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: The current Land Development Code, not the one at the time of this PUD.
MR. YOYONOYICH: Correct.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Why aren't you taking out off-street loading and unloading spaces and do the same
with that? Is there a different requirement in the PUD than is in the current LDC?
MR. YOYONOYICH: I don't know the answer.
Wayne, do you?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: While he's doing that, Rich, the concept of current, does that mean the LDC in effect
today that you're taking this off or whatever is in effect in the future when somebody's building something now?
MR. YOYONOVICH: Let me look at the beginning of the document. I don't see the -- in some -- this is an older PUD,
and I'm looking at the very beginning of the document.
In some of -- in some ofthe older PlJD's it makes specific reference to the PUD in effect at the time the PlJD was
adopted. I don't see that language in there.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. So that would mean 10 years from now if somebody's trying to use one of these
activities when he's applying for that penn it, he will be providing parking as per the code 10 years from"
MR. YOY ANOVICH: It appears to be that way, Mr. Schiffer. We haven't asked to change any of those provisions
within the PUD document.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Then I guess the only question is why is the loading not struck.
MR. YOY ANOVICH: We're looking. But I'm assuming since it didn't -- since it had that requirement there and didn't
specifically reference an existing code at the time, there either was not a standard at that time or it was different than what the
standard was.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Right.
MR. YOY ANOYICH: So, I mean, I'm -- in an abundance of caution to make sure we -- since it's an already built
shopping center, I don't want to run the risk of creating an inconsistency.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Right. Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody else? Ms. Caron, did you--
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah, well, I'll make a correction, and I think I e-mailed you this correction on what is
now number eight, depository and non-depository institutions. I think it's groups 6021 through 6099, not 199.
MR. YOY ANOYICH: Right. And if you -- if you look on the visualizer, we've made that correction to 6099.
COMMISSIONER CARON: All right, I'm looking at what--
MR. YOY ANOYICH: I know. We've -- again, we've been working with -- there were some comments we'd gotten from
the community on October 29th. We've done one revision to the documents and we'll do another based on their November 5th
memo. And you'll see a1] of that at the consent agenda.
COMMISSIONER CARON: And so basically you're in agreement 100 percent with this list.
MR. YOV ANOYICH: Except for the two things I said. I wanted to clarifY convenient stores, without gas pumps we
agreed to, and use -- instead of x-rated, we would use the word adult videos.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions ofthe applicant?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Richard, let's start on page -- the second page of section six, top, number one. You have
bowling centers, 7933. They're very loud--
MR. YOY ANOYICH: We've eliminated them.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay.
You have, on number 20, liquor stores. Do you need liquor stores?
MR. YOY ANOYICH: Yeah, I think we already have one. We have one there.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, I'll leave that in.
Personal services. And I didn't bring my -- I forgot my book. So Ms. Caron --
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- November 6, 2008
COMMISSIONER CARON: Got it.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 7217 I had marked and 7219 and 7221. Could you tell me what those are"
COMMISSIONER CARON: 72--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: In the back there's a table that just lists the uses.
COMMISSIONER CARON: That's easier than going to--
MR. YOVANOVICH: You said 19,21 and--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 7217, 7219 and 7221.
7217 is carpet and upholstery cleaning.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Right.
CHAtRMAN STRAIN: 7219 is laundry and garment services, NEC, which is anything that doesn't fall under any other
category. And 7221 is photographic studios -- no, that's the wrong -- that one's okay, I'm sorry.
So I was just -- the two heavier cleaning industries are like power laundries are heavier in nature, they've got more
equipment, they run more chemicals, and 1 was just wondering if you needed those.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Well, that's where you would [md tailor shops, storage of furs, cleaning of furs. That's what
7219 lists. It lists dressmaking, fur garment cleaning, repairing and storage, garment alteration and repair shops, hand laundries,
pillow cleaning and renovating.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: What about 721 n
MR. YOV ANOVICH: 72 I 7 was carpet cleaning and repairs. I mean, it was not an issue that the neighbors raised as an
issue.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, I'mjust -- if they didn't, then I don't--
COMMISSIONER CARON: Well, then what it says here is dry cleaning and laundry pickup stations only. So I don't
think they could have any of the heavier --
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's in the reference to 7212, I think. And then they go in and say -- then it goes groups and it
lists the other groups, and that's the only -- but iflhe neighborhood's not concerned about it, I don't need to be.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Chair?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: I don't know that the neighborhood really knows all of what is under each of one of
these numbers, that's my point. I don't think that they -- right here you have -- after that it says including only. So that means that's
it.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's for 7299 only. Because that comes after the comma. So it says comma, 7299, including
only car, title and tag service, et cetera. I'm just wondering if it --
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: I don't think that people are aware of that.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Of course not.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: And they don't know -- I just don't think people are aware of everything that's under all
oflhese numbers. And it's not clear to the whole community. I just really don't think that's --
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Well, I got the impression, and it may be a wrong impression, that Mr. Cummings went through
the list and they identified the categories that they didn't like. And they were very specific in their responses as to the list within
the subheading the things they didn't like.
And so I think at least the individual or committee that looked at the individual lists knew what they were doing as far as
the analysis goes.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: I still don't think the community is aware of all that could happen. I mean, to me it looks
-- there's just way too many changes for something that's supposed to be a shopping center to supply services to the surrounding
communities that are all in -- they're all linked together. You know, Lakewood, the Glades, Winterpark, Queens, Park, they can all
go there for specific services, and this is just -- makes me think that, you know, the property could be for sale at some point and
all tom down and something else put there.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Do you know if during the -- you had said you were at the civic association meeting. Did they
-- during that discussion did they understand about the SIC codes?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: They were in agreement with the -- what the community had written on the list that they
didn't want there. But I don't -- I still don't -- I don't think that they are aware of everything that's under each oflhese numbers. I
don't think that they -- you know, they didn't--
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Well, the existing PUD provides for laundry and dry cleaning pickup establishments and
self-service laundries; that's in the current PUD.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: And it also provides for tailoring, millenary garnlent alteration or repair. So those are uses that
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are already in the PUD that we're just establishing the SIC Code that goes along with that.
Same thing with the general category of financial institutions. I mean, we're trying to put it in the -- we took what was
there and tried to put it with the appropriate SIC codes that you all are familiar with.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ms. Caron?
COMMISSIONER CARON: As long as you're not adding anything to those SIC codes. In other words, if you're using
the original list of uses and you are trying to apply a SIC code. Sometimes when you apply the SIC code, it also gives you
additional uses that were not anticipated by the original --
MR. YOV ANOVICH: And we tried to not do that by the limitations that we put with the SIC codes.
And it changes. I mean, we took out -- for instance, you can have today a cocktail lounge. We took that use out, because
thafs been -- is no longer customarily accepted in a shopping center. So we tried to modernize it to what's been going through the
process recently.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah, I have a question relative to the civic association meeting. I guess we have to ask
Ms. Homiak. Was there a motion made in any way in support -- in other words, I'm trying to find out if this is a civic association
acting on behalf of the community, or was the association just given infonnation?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: They were given information and the board was supporting the King's Lake community.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: By motion"
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Yes.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: There was a motion made.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Yes.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I don't have a problem with modificatiuns that are being spoken 01; but this PUD was a
C-I through C-4 use, and staff said let's get together and see if we can make this right by -- you knuw, it's not going to get built
out any further. I have no objections to what changes are being asked for. I don't know whether or not in NIM's do we actually go
through every detail in the SIC codes"
MR. YOV ANOVICH: We bring the SIC code book with us, we tell them what we're duing. And if there's any question
-- for instance, if they said what does boat dealers group 5551 include within the 5551. We'll open up the SIC code book and say
okay, the following eight things -- and I don't even know ifthere are eight things in the 5551 right now -- are within that category.
And then we'll have that level of discussion.
But do we prepare and hand out a matrix of every sub-use within those categories? No, we don't typically do that in a
neighborhood information meeting.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: But anyone there can ask a question and can obtain the infurmation that they want; is
that correct?
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Sure, sure.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Richard, let's gu back tu the beginning.
Y uu struck bowling centers. Under 7997 -- and this is trying to make sure in case the neighborhood didn't read all the
SIC codes, we got this as tight as need to be.
7997 is one of your catchalls. Memberships, boards and recreation clubs, could we indicate inside use only?
MR. YOVANOVICH: Sure.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Number three, autumotive services, group 7542, car washes. That's a real intense use. In
fact, we have special sections of the LDC just to prohibit car washes in a certain manner.
Do you really need car washes?
MR. YOVANOVICH: We can get rid of that.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Number six, building materials, hardware and garden supply groups, 5231 to 5261. Were you
planning on putting a Home Depot or a Lowe's in there? Not that theire -- I mean, they're great stores, I go in them constantly.
But this is a small shupping center and that would be rather inappropriate for a smaller shupping center. It wuuld be number six
on your list.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Yeah, we have hardware store only. I dun't believe we -- I don't believe the lumber yard use falls
within that category.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: True Value or Ace Hardware is what you have? Because those are fme.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Yes, yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It's your bigger big box that has a lot of odd huurs and more nuise and delivers.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Mr. Strain, number 12 I think might give you a little level of comfort on that issue.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Warehuuse clubs and discount retail superstores. That would mean you couldn't come in with
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November 6, 2008
your typical Target and Wal-Mart here, right?
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Right. I think that the warehouse clubs --
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But I'm more worried about Home Depot and a Lowe's and a building materials, hardware and
garden supply under nwnber six is what I'd be concerned about there.
Do you have any problem limiting number six to hardware stores, not outside -- no outside sales?
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Do you have a problem with garden supply"
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I don't think that's a problem.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: And so you just want no outside--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, lumberyards and uses like that.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: No Iwnber"
Why don't we say no Iwnberyards.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That works. I think that would be better.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Big box hardware store.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Unfortunately we don't have a definition of big box.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Sure. Of course you do. I hear it all the time.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Number nine, eating places. You have eating places and drinking places. And I know that they
were in the previous one in the sense that it was under cocktail lounges.
Did I hear you say you're limiting -- there's no standalone drinking bars"
MR. YOV ANOVICH: That's correct. We only -- it says eating places and drinking places, only cocktail lounges in
conjunction with a restaurant. So the standalone bar that was previously allowed is no longer.
CHAtRMAN STRAIN: And hopefully if we get through the noise ordinance this afternoon, then you'll come under that
noise ordinance, so that would take care of any neighborhood noise that we have.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Me personally, or--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Yes, you specifically.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's it for the uses.
I did go through, Karen, the SIC Code and tried to figure out which ones were problematic. I don't know if! would have
looked at them the way the neighborhood necessarily would, but IlIied to find some of those. And most of them have been
caught. For example, the neighborhood has cut numbers 873 I, 8734, 9222, 9223, and a series of other in-between numbers. So
that's a good sign. At least somebody has looked at them and suggested those are inappropriate.
Richard, I want to ask you about that. The first document we received trom the neighborhood association, they had a
series of numbers that they objected to. For example, under No. 22 on your sheet, they had number 7261, which would fall in
between 7219 and 7291. They had struck 7261.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: And we have as well.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, where did you take that into consideration? What docwnent -- do you have a doc--
MR. YOV ANOVICH: I have an interim document that obviously we don't hand out anything. After you get it we pair it
after.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's a good move. Stops the continuance.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Yeah.
We have prepared that docwnent based upon their October 29th letter. And then we responded to them. We wrote
deleted, modified, depending on the response.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So those numbers that were in their first letter, you've included those as exceptions to the
groupings that you had in your docwnent that we currently have in our packet; is that right?
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Correct. We have modified the docwnent you have to take -- to delete several of the items and
then modii)' them. And then they looked at that document and that generated their November 5th memo. And with further
modifications based upon their review of our response to October 29th, they narrowed it down to nine other items to which we
have no objections to those further clarifications other than what I had stated.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, so the -- go ahead, Ms. Caron.
COMMISStONER CARON: Well, I think -- so then we need to go to the fmal page of their second letter. And it says--
so you have -- you agree with all of their restrictions on this page, or--
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Yes. And deletions.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: On number seven, Richard, the convenience stores with gas, and number nine, x-rated is
substituted with adult.
COMMISSIONER CARON: And -- understood. But hotels and motels"
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November 6, 2008
MR. YOV ANOVICH: That's listed as a conditional use in the PUD docwnent.
COMMISSIONER CARON: And it will still be--
MR. YOVANOVICH: Yes.
COMMISSIONER CARON: -- in the new document0
MR. YOVANOVICH:Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No, it's not listed as a conditional use in the original document.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Actually, it's an easier--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: You're trying to put it in--
MR. YOVANOVICH: -- process than the original docwnent.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- as a conditional use, and you know I'm going to be objecting to that in a minute. So before
you give her the affinnative answer and she says yes, let's talk about that.
COMMtSSIONER CARON: No, I'm not going to say yes, because--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Let's talk about that when we get to it.
COMMISSIONER CARON: --I don't think it should be in here from the beginning.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: What the list that Ms. Caron just brought up does, it says in the beginning they have removed
most of the troublesome uses. So it doesn't repeat the ones they previously had objected to. That's what I'm pointing out. We don't
see those removed.
You're telling us you have an interim docwnent that has removed those. And in addition you agree to all the additions of
one through nine with those two word clarifications.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Correct.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, I understand that, and I think we got that. I think it's easy enough to check because we
have the original letter.
Going on to your uses on the last page, 6-4, up on top it talks about accessory uses and structures customarily associated
with the principal uses and structures, including but not limited to uses and structures that are accessor)' and incidental to the
pennanent uses within this PUD.
Isn't that kind of redundant, one definition being used for itself all over again? Why do we need A? Why wouldn't you
just say accessory uses and structures customarily associated with principal use and structures, period.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: I think it sounds okay what you're saying, but let me--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That cuts out some of your legal billing verbiage, but -- we're trying to get--
MR. YOV ANOVlCH: I won't be able to be a party animal anymore.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I know.
What is two in there for, when it's already in up above on number nine?
MR. YOV ANOVICH: You know, that's a good question. But we have historically put it in both places, both under the
permitted uses and the accessory use.
I'm not saying that's necessarily an appropriate practice, but we've historically put them in both places.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But if you want to go by history, we don't need to change the PUD. So now that we are, why
don't we correct it? And if it's not needed, let's just not have the redundancy.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Delete number two, you're suggesting"
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Okay.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And now we get to the fun one.
The property may be used for the following, if approved. And it basically said -- it said before, a majority of the coastal
area planning commission, which means there are certain uses that go through the planning commission, depending on how much
of a change they are within a PUD.
And it's either a -- there's several -- there's a minor change, an insubstantial change and a substantial change process.
Minor change is staff. An insubstantial, like a small map change or something on a PUD can go strictly to the planning
commission. And then there's a substantial change which goes through the whole process.
I'm not sure what C's process was back in 1973, but I don't like the idea oftaking a conditional use process and adding it
to a PUD when if you want any of the conditional uses, why don't you just amend the PUD since it's a similar public process?
Why are we making it a separate second zoning process within one zoning process? I think that's a mistake. And I know I spoke
to you about it and you're smiling, so you must have some kind of answer.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: We -- I understand, Mr. Strain, and we don't have an objection to amending the PUD versus
having a conditional use process.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. So Item C would basically be gone.
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And if you want any of those uses, youjust come back and amend the PUD.
MR. YOY ANOYICH: And we'll amend the PUD and come -- I mean, the conditional use I'd be going through
essentially a very similar process anyway, so--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. Okay.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Good, because I certainly would want motes to come through as a PUD amendment.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motes?
COMMISSIONER CARON: It says here, hotels and motes.
MR. YOY ANOYICH: Well, see, the motel is actually a permitted use, it's just the mote around it that--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. So on the consent agenda, whenever it comes back, C would be struck. And that is the
extent of the questions I have at this time, pending anything staff might throw into the mix.
MR. YOY ANOYICH: That's the problem with spellcheck, you know. Doesn't catch it when you actually spell a correct
word.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, any other questions of the applicant before we go to staffpresentation?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, J.D.?
(Speakers was duly swom.)
MR. MOSS: Thank you. For the record, John-David Moss, Department of Zoning and Land Development Review.
I just wanted to point out what was stated on Page 3 of the staff report, that this project is consistent with the Growth
Management Plan.
Because it was approved -- or found consistent by policy, it allows the property to be rezoned, provided that the new
zoning district is the same or lower intensity than the existing, and that the overall intensity of the conunercialland uses allowed
by the existing zoning district do not exceed the new one.
And all ofthe originally approved uses were found to be C-I through C-4 uses, so staff, both comprehensive planning
staff and I, went through all of the uses and found them to be consistent with the C-I through C-4 uses.
And Commissioner Homiak, when we did attend the NIM meeting, these uses were not broken down like you see here.
I'm the one that went through the document and kind of broke them down further than they were. Because those SIC codes are so
confusing to people and you don't really know what they represent.
But the community that -- the homeowners association group that did review the document, I mean, they're very savvy,
they had an SIC code book and they did go through these one by one. So I know that they are satisfied with everything that's
being proposed, except for the recommendations that they cited in their most recent letter.
So if we're going to incorporate those changes, I think they'll be happy now.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Any questions of staff?
Ms. Homiak?
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: The letter that went out, the first letter that went out for the meeting, did it just say that
King's Lake -- they were looking for a change to put in -- so that they could put a fitness center in.
MR. MOSS: To change the commercial uses. they didn't specity a fitness center, I don't believe, but it was definitely
discussed at the NIM that that was their priority, because they actually had a representative from the fitness center there.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: This type of thing -- this wasn't--
MR. MO: No, no.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: -- included in the letter, it was just that they want to put a fitness center in --
MR. MOSS: Right.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: -- and that was what the meeting was for.
MR. MOSS: Right.
But they did -- as Mr. Yovanovich mentioned, they did discuss what some of the other uses were. If anyone had a
question about what the specific SIC Code represented, they did explain it to them.
But those codes are really cryptic, and I don't think people understand what they are. But it's not unusual for applicants
to do this. It's done all the time. So what they did is not atypical.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: And so this was advertised properly for all --
MR. MOSS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: -- these changes just with that letter--
MR. MOSS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: -- tor the fitness center?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, any other questions of staff?
(No response.)
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November 6, 2008
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ray, do we have any public speakers?
MR. BELLOWS: No one has registered.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Do you want a rebuttal to staffs negative comments')
MR. YOV ANOVICH: No.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, it's my understanding then that you have -- you're going to create an interim document
that will basically strike most if not all of the items on the first letter from the community, subject to the clarifications in the
second letter, subject to the text changes that you brought up to us.
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Correct.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And that you also understand the comments that we've made during this meeting in regards to
some additions and strike-throughs that we talked about in eliminations. Are you--
MR. YOVANOVICH: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Based on that, and there's no public speakers, we'll close the public hearing and either
entertain a discussion or motion.
Mr. Vigliotti?
COMMISStONER VIGLIOTTI: I'd like to make a motion to approve based upon all the changes that we've here
discussed.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Second.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, motion's been made and seconded. Motion made by Mr. Vigliotti, seconded by Mr.
Murray.
Motion was made based on the discussion that we just had. And I want to reiterate the discussion so that the motion
maker accepts it, and that is that the first letter issued by the neighborhood with their objections will be incorporated into the
corrections on the uses, subject to the further refinement of those corrections that were in the second letter, with the exception that
in the second letter there are two textual changes, Mr. Y ovanovich suggested for clarification, which seemed logica1.
And then also subject to the walk-through that we just had over some additional verbiage and strike-throughs on the
usage and the accessory definitions and the conditional use application.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Yes.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Is that your motion?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray, is that where you--
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I have a question. The two letters, were they authored by the same individual?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yes.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Yes. And I think probably the better way to phrase it is that we'll revise the PUD to be consistent
with their 11-5 letter.
Because what happened was, you know, I think they had asked for the elimination of -- on the 29th, they had asked for
the elimination of -- where did the letter go? Did you pick up my 29th letter?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Richard, before you go there, [ have no problem with referencing that it be consistent with the
11-5 letter, because that to me takes preference--
MR. YOVANOVICH: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- over the earlier one, because it talks about--
MR. YOV ANOVICH: Because there was give and take back and forth and the 5th is -- yes, that's what I --
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But the problem I have is the second letter doesn't reiterate all ofthe concerning numbers on
the first letter, and the documents we've received from staff don't include those, so they're not on record here today. I know you're
working on an interim document, we know what the numbers are, but we want to make sure the motion includes you
incorporating those to the extent that they're refined in the November 5th letter.
COMMtSSIONER MURRAY: Right.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Gotcha.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion maker and the second --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Now we have a good motion.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- both accept. Okay.
Any other discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All those in favor of the motion, signi\}' by saying aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Aye.
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COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye.
MR. WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries 9-0.
It will come back for consent.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Mr. Chair?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes, sir, Mr. Schiffer.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Before we go on to something else, could we discuss this concept of SIC codes? I
agree with the concern you have.
First of all, all of us are probably looking them up as we review the report. I do it on a computer, you do it in the book.
What a wasted task, nine of us doing the exact same thing.
The neighbors, it's very easy to blind something behind the numbers. So could we see if staff could come up with a way
that when SIC codes are referenced in an application that there's some sort ofa summary sheet that summarizes it?
Now, my suggestion in the computer world would be build a data base that would note that a number's used and would
print out, you know, at least the line description. Like you say, in the back of the book there is a simple description. But to have
everybody looking them up, to have -- the community mayor may not be able to look them up, or know how to look them up.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, let me suggest something. On Page 427 of the SIC Code is a line-by-line narrative of
what each nwnber means. I'm not suggesting that you put it in the PUD, because it would make the PUD many pages long.
But for every number in a grouping that isn't defined in the PUD, if the applicant was required in part of their PUD
submittal to just list the number and what it was next to it as a supplement document that could be passed out to us, it certainly
would help resolve the concern that Brad has.
And I share his concern. Because you've got to pull these books up and look.
The best source of that, though, is starting on Page 427 ofthe SIC and it goes for about 20 pages. And it's basically a
swnmary. It's short. But if you need further refinement, then you can go into the body of the book.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And I think the summary -- I mean, it's easier for one member of the staff or the
applicant does it than it is for nine of us, how many neighbors, how many other staff members are doing it. We're really wasting
time on that. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I would make a thought on that.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead, Mr. Murray.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Is it more appropriate for the staff to take on that work, or would it be more appropriate
MR. BELLOWS: For the record, I --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Or would it be more appropriate for the petitioner"
MR. BELLOWS: Historically, about -- I would say it was about eight to 10 years ago staff did provide copies of the
SIC codes with each application. However, that became very problematic for the planning commission at that time, so we stopped
doing it.
But I like the idea of revising our application process to require the applicant to provide a swnmary ofthe overall group
heading that explains what the many nwnerous uses are underneath that particular group --
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, if they supply that pursuant to starting on Page 427 like when they say 7217, it says there
carpet and upholstery cleaning. If you want to know what that says in the whole paragraph you can go into the heart of the book to
get that. That would be too burdensome to supply.
But just to make a listing -- it wouldn't even take a page for these PUD's to make a listing of every number in those
groups that applies and have it listed there so everyone readily could see gee, ] wonder if that means something I don't think it
means, they could look further ifthey wanted to.
I think it would save a lot of time. Mr. Schiffer's 100 percent right, it might be something you ought to consider looking
at.
MR. BELLOWS: Yeah, can I study it and get back to you at your next meeting--
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November 6, 2008
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah, I would hope you would.
MR. BELLOWS: -- and I will have some recommendations.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, sounds good.
Brad, does that work for you?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I'm fine, thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, and rather than get into the noise ordinance, we will go to lunch and come back here at
12:35 and start the noise ordinance at that time.
(Lunch recess.)
Item #10
OLD BUSINESS
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, everyone, we hopefully are all back from lunch, at least enough of us to continue on with
the meeting.
We're done with our public petitions. The last item on today's agenda, it says old business, it really means ancient,
ancient, very old business, and it's the noise ordinance that we started, I don't know, a year and a half ago. Hopefully today we
may be to some point where it can be concluded.
So with that in mind, Jeff, you provided us with a new write-up. I'll certainly -- if you have any opening comments, and
whenever you feel like it, we'll just start and go through a page at a time then like we have before.
MR. WRIGHT: Okay. Thanks, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners. For the record, I'm Jeff Wright.
I just wanted to point out that Lisa Schott, our noise consultant, is not here. And this has been throughout this process
kind of a twin effort with the legal and the technical. We're kind ofa little handicapped on the technical side of things, but we'll do
our best to answer your questions.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, we learned so much last time that we may have -- be able to give her some pointers, so--
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Technically handicapped.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, we just start through the docwnent then? Ard I guess we'll take the defmitions section all
in one Iwnp.
Anybody have any questions in the defmition section of the docwnent" Which really takes us over to Page 8. So the
first eight pages of the document.
Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I have a question just to start.
Jeff, one ofthe things that we were going to do last time, and there's a lot of technical stuffhere. Has anybody ever done
a test based on this calibration of any of the known noise violators, or potential noise violators? Have we ever done any tests yet?
MR. WRIGHT: Well, I know that they have readings, for example, from LaPIaya.l'm not sure if that's what you're
talking about.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Well, that's a start, yeah.
Okay, when we get there, we'll get there.
But, in other words, one of the things that -- the most important thing is we're going through the words. The words are
starting to really get old. But the point is we have no idea whether this works. We've never shot these numbers at a sound source,
so -- you know, if that's been done at the appropriate time, that will be great, but--
MR. WRIGHT: In coming up with these standards, we deferred to the consultant and she did a review of national
standards and what are the reasonable national standards and that's what we are using in this ordinance.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. I guess we'll wait till the right time.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Well, the first eight pages are defmitions.
Mr. Kolllat"
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: No, not definitions, but weren't you going to consider the possibility of having a
demonstration here of different sound levels that we could get a feeling for what they represented?
MR. WRIGHT: Yes, the consultant had said that she's able to do that. I guess it's a bit of an effort. She couldn't be here
today. But if you want to recommend that she come back with that, I'm sure she could do it.
She's also indicated for the Bee that she'd be prepared to do the same.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I would rather reserve that request until we finish and then see if the need -- because it's
expensive to keep bringing people in. And ifshe can be brought in to finalize any final tweaking in front ofthe BCC with a
recommendation from us, that might be as sutlicient.
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November 6, 2008
~
So we'll just see where it goes as we get through this document then.
So back to the first eight pages. Any other questions on the defmitions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: If not, we'll move to Pages 8 and 9. Anybody have any questions on Pages 8 and 9?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Page 10"
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Page 1 I" Page 11 starts our first table. It's table one, which talks about the sound level limits.
Any questions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Jeff -- go ahead, Ms. Caron.
COMMISSIONER CARON: No, go ahead.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Jeff, at the last meeting, we asked that we have a consideration of some special areas of the
county. And the lady that was here from Corkscrew, which is predominantly an agricultural area, was commenting about how the
agricultural operation next door, even though she's agricultural, is real problematic for them. And we actually recommended that
you come back or somebody come back with some kind of way of looking at how those unique areas could be addressed.
I don't see that on this table. How did that get handled"
MR. WRIGHT: Well, I spoke with our consultant about it and reviewed some of the relevant law. And I have most
sound ordinances. There are some exceptions, but most will set the residential at the lowest level. And they don't carve that
residential further out and have especially quiet areas, which I think is what you're getting at. And the reason for that is, for
example, environmental1aws have been overturned where they're biased to bring more polluters into a particular area. And there's
some concern that it might have the effect of directing all sound noise into certain spots and away from other spots, and we might
end up with some legal problems related to that.
And using the environrnentallaws as an analogy, those laws are often challenged and have been turned over where they
kind of direct the pollution to a -- somewhere. If you look at noise in the same -- in an analogous way, it is a fonn of pollution, an
annoyance, that we could run into problems.
And that, combined with the lack of models in other jurisdictions makes us very reluctant to have separate quieter than
residential zones. Not to say it's not possible to do that.
I found an example in Massachusetts, for example, where they do have -- they kind of address it by saying no more than
10 dB above the background sound level. And they call them sensitive sound areas.
I just don't see the support for that in the case law and in other jurisdictions to feel confident going that way.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: See, I think the problem's a little different here. [n the agricultural area we have homes. There
are homes out there. They're on -- especially in the Corkscrew area, the homes are on, you know, bigger, maybe estates size tracts,
but I believe they're agriculturally zoned.
And because they're in that agricultural zoned area, the decibel levels, even though they're residential dwellings, by this
table wouldn't we be looking at a 75, 87 decibel level"
MR. WRIGHT: We would be.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Is there a way that we can except out agricultural areas that are used for residential and
that within the property boundaries of the residential tract they have to resort to the residential readings here"
MR. WRIGHT: We could. And again, I just -- I'm not 100 percent comfortable that that will withstand legal challenge.
I'mjllSt afraid that it will direct the noise into other areas, and some people that might be affected by that would speak out and say
that they're being treated differently under law and affected differently adversely.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Well, doesn't any of these do that? I mean, okay, the residential area in the top line has
lower levels than the agricultural area.
So if you want to operate and do some kind of noise, you're not going to go in the residential area, you're going to go
into one of the other areas that are already directing noise to specific areas. I'm just wondering how that differentiates ITom what
you just said.
MR. WRIGHT: Well, we can say that -- you can discriminate based on zoning. Discriminate is probably not the best
word, but differentiate standards based on zoning.
Where we don't have that zoning boundary to guide us, it gets a little bit dicier. And that's where you run into -- I can't
find case law that would support discriminating on another basis, a tract basis, for example.
Not to say it's not doable, but without finn legal foundation for it, I'm not 100 percent comfortable.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead, Ms. Caron, then Mr. Midney.
COMMISSIONER CARON: But what is to say that the agricultural zoning area should be at 75 as opposed to 65?
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MR. WRIGHT: Well, I think this might be -- Lisa kind oflooked at models around the country and Florida, and I think
that she -- based on traditional use of agricultural, they tend to have more machinery and louder equipment. So therefore the
generally recognized standards kind of crank it up in those agricultural versus residential.
And another way of putting it is residential always has the lowest noise levels. I realize --
COMMISSIONER CARON: Well, I was sort of picking something halfway in between. It's not the 60 and 55 that our
traditional residential would have but, you know, it's what the commercial tourist area would have. Just something that would
make it less, because we do have a hybrid here. We have areas that are not just ag., it's residential with an underlying ago zoning.
MR. WRIGHT: I agree.
COMMISSIONER CARON: So I don't know why we can't just pick a number.
CHAtRMAN STRAIN: I think we're going to have to explore that a little more.
Mr. Midney was next, then Mr. Vigliotti.
COMMISSIONER MJDNEY: I think in the north we used to have something called hospital zones where noise was
restricted. If that would be legal, it would make sense to have something like a ecotourism zone in respect to noise.
Because at Corkscrew I know sound travels very well through the cypress swamp, and you wouldn1t want to have
something on the borders afthat area that was noisy.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Vigliotti"
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Back to the schedule. You come up with residential, the change would be at 10:00
p.m. Then you go to commercial tourism, and you still hold it at 10:00. Wouldn't it make sense to make that later? II :OO?
MR. WRIGHT: It's really a policy call.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Why would you want to go longer"
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah, why would you--
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Maybe somebody would react if you said sooner.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Okay.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ray, Joe, or whoever would know how to answer this, getting back to this agricultural issue.
The RLSA, the entire eastern lands are all agricultural. When they go in for their stewardship credits and they get the
right to build there, does the underlying zoning ofthat land change, or is it still ago with an overlay"
MR. SCHMITT: Well, you create an SRA, which is essentially equivalent to a PUD. So you do create zoning through
the stewardship receiving area.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So when they do that, their property, because it's then more or less rezoned into a residential
district, the ago adjacent to them has to be restricted to the residential impacts when it hits the tract line of this residential number
here, right?
MR. SCHMITT: I would doubt that. And the reason I say that, and I --
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Wow.
MR. SCHMITT: Yes and no. But that's a legal opinion.
But I have to say that the ago which was out there, and it's been operating for years and years and years. Let's say it's an
orchard, orange groves or tomatoes and, you know, they're running pumps for irrigation or whatever.
Because something comes in, it's the old analogy, which came first, the airport or the residential. I go back when Dulles
Airport was built, that type of thing.
J can't through my rezoning now all of a sudden create restrictions on something that's been operating for years and
years and tell that farmer you no longer can now plant. Because the dividing line between the RLSA or the SSA -- I'm sorry,
stewardship receiving area, SRA -- and let's say right at the edge of the SRA are the tomato fields. They still have every right to
operate as an ag. organization. Now, there may be distances associated with that.
Ms. Caron?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Well, I think we've taken care of that. On Page 24 it says exceptions for existing
operations. And I asked the question, so it's which came first, and not the zoning. So if it's been ag. and suddenly homes move in
MR. SCHMITT: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER CARON: -- you know, operating ag., not fallow ago But if it's not just zoned ago
MR. SCHMITT: Right.
COMMISSIONER CARON: But ifsomebody's had an operation, then -- is operating a business, then they take
preference whatever was there first. That's what we were told the last time around.
MR. SCHMITT: Right. It's -- but it's -- there are certainly places in the county where you're -- you have homes that are
in ago areas. I think it -- and I turn to Jeffand Jeff. I think it's going to be somewhat difficult legally to now because somebody
built a house all of a sudden create and put a new requirement on what may have been ag. for 30,35 years out there plowing fields
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November 6, 2008
and operating a tractor. Those kind of things do create noise.
MR. KLA TZKOW: You have a Right to Farm Act that would protect this. If! have an existing farm operation, just
because somebody builds a house across the street because it got rezoned, that's not going to put me out of business.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. So then the noise ordinance, what you're saying, there's no way that you can write the
noise ordinance to protect a lady like presented to us last time in Corkscrew who lived in an ago area and was complaining about
the ago operations next door to her.
MR. KLA TZKOW: You know, I don't know what to tell you. When you live in an urban area, you get urban noise;
when you live in an agricultmal area, you get --
MR. SCHMITT: Exactly.
MR. KLA TZKOW: -- agricultural noise. I mean, it's--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I just want to make it clear for the record, Jeff.
MR. KLATZKOW: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Because the question's going to come up. I mean, people are going to say, why didn't this fix
this? And we want to have an answer.
MR. KLA TZKOW: Because quite frankly, if we want to lower the decibel level, okay, to the point ofwhispering,
everybody's going to be out of compliance. I mean, these are national standards that we've been given us, and if we lower them, 1
mean, loe's shop is going to be running with code enforcement non-stop. It's just what we are. It's what everybody is.
MR. SCHMITT: Well, it becomes a law that's almost unenforceable. And I understood exactly what she was saying, but
it's sort of the caveat emptor, let the buyer beware. They bought out there. Yes, there are going to be pumps, there are going to be
other ago type of impacts. ! just don't know how we can prevent somebody from not being able to farm or operate in what has
always been ago
MR. KLA TZKOW: I bought my house near Gulf Coast High School because I wanted my kids to be close to school.
And every Friday during football season I get the announcements, and -- you know, I can tell you, even when my lanai doors are
closed, when Gulf Coast goes to touch down who scored that touchdown, you know, whatever. I'm a good mile away. I mean, you
know, it's just -- it's what I chose to do and now I've got to deal with that noise.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray, Mr. Wolfley, Ms. Caron, then Mr. Homiak.
Mr. Murray?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah, the comment would be absolute silence is guaranteed upon death, I think.
But all property, all land. rather, is zoned ago in Collier County. That's the base zoning. So how would you get to a
differentiation? Somebody builds a house residential here, they've changed the zoning, all around them there's ago I just -- I don't
want to repeat what Mr. Klatzkow has just said, but that's my view too. We are a changing society and a certain amount of
ambient noise is going to grow.
I might feel bad for the lady who suffers the problem of the noise, but I think we have to learn to live with each other,
the so-called social contract. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Wolfley?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I don't recall her complaining about the farming operations, I only recall her
complaining about the noise from partying and so on. But I just don't recall a farming issue. I mean, that would have been moot to
me. That's all.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ms. Caron?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Well, I think that part of the issue is just that the way things are worded now, in the ago
area it's 75 under the A scale and 87 under the C scale at all times. Why isn't it appropriate to do 75 during the day and 65 at
night?
MR. WRIGHT: That's another policy decision. There's nothing wrong with that.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Again, that's -- you kuow, Mr. Klatzkow's example of moving in next to the school is sort
oflike people moving in next to airports, you do have to have some awareness. But at that school, they're not there at 3:00 in the
morning creating the same kind of noises that he can hear even with his doors and windows closed at 3 :00 in the morning.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Can I make a comment, please?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, Ms. Homiak was next, then Mr. Schiffer, then Mr. Murray.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: I was -- my comment was just the same as Mr. Wolfley's, actually. t don't remember the
woman saying anything other than she was complaining about the partying on the weekends.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And two things. Donna, at night in agricultural, if there's a freeze coming in, they're
going to be making a lot of noise out there.
The -- Jeff, one thing, though. Here we are with the numbers. How do we know what these numbers are going to do? I
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November 6, 2008
mean, we don't -- do we have any field tests? In other words, can you -- you know, we have some classic concerns with noise. Has
anybody gone out and tested those sites with this data so we could see if it works?
Because, I mean, we're going to study the outdoor seating. If we're not picking up noise violations, then why -- you
know, then the nwnbers should maybe be changed. But if they're sufficient or--
MR. WRIGHT: We do have some data to guide us. It's not really air tight. But Dave, for example, has readings at
LaPIaya. Lisa, who you met at the last meeting, has her old report on her work at Stevie Tomatoes that contains detailed decibel
readings. I'd be happy to distribute that just for your edification.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And it has A and C also?
MR. SCRlBNER: No, we don't have the C scale.
MR. WRlGHT: I think it's just octave band is what she used.
A and octave band?
MR. SCRlBNER: These readings that we took, we took using the decibel, the A scale. We have not adopted -- the
ordinance hasn't adopted the C scale. And the C scale, in very simple tenns, takes the octave band and the decibel levels, puts
them all into one unit.
And it doesn't change the actual what you hear, it's just a measurement, a simpler measurement so that people can get a
noise meter, use the C scale. Because we have a lot of people who call up and say hey, I took a noise reading and it's 87 decibels.
Thafs way in violation of the ordinance. Well, they're using the C scale. And our ordinance, as it's written right now, is all in the
A scale.
I have -- and unfortunately I thought it was in your packet, and I apologize that it's not. I've got some handouts I'll give
to everybody. These are some of the readings we've taken as part of the LaPlaya issue that came up, and taken across the water.
It's taken from 560 feet, which is the property line of the complainant in this issue. And taken on different days. And you can see
some ambient readings, as well as with the source on.
Back to the issue of agricultural noise. We have not had any readings taken from Mrs. Gay's property, because when
we've gone out there the noise that she was complaining about wasn't audible.
I can tell you from experience in some other agricultural issues, usually what comes up is a pwnp running, and they'll
have a pump going 24/7.
And I had one in North Naples that we got a complaint on. We contacted the fanner. They built a very simple little box
around it, alleviated the issue, problem solved.
We try and work with farmers. We try and work with everybody to resolve the issues rather than just going forward and
trying to cite someone. And usually we can come up with some solution. Sometimes it may be as simple as putting a piece of
construction equipment in front of a pwnp to block the noise. We did that down in Lely.
So if you'd like, I can hand out this and you can all get an idea of what some ofthe noises that -- decibel levels that we're
running into.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray, did you have a question you wanted to ask while it's being handed out?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, it had to do with -- I wanted to answer Commissioner Caron, and it was about the
pwnps. I mean, at all times, because if the pwnp sounds at 75 decibels, it would operate 75 decibels throughout the night as well
as throughout the day, and that would be a basis for saying at all times. That was the thought that came to my mind. But the
gentleman stole my thunder.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Chair, I've got one thing.
Chair, did you recognize me or did you hear me?
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'm sony, I didn't hear you, Dave.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Oh, okay. I've got one.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead, sir.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: We've got -- in going through this thing, we've got to keep in mind that there are
people out there that have to administer what we come up with. And two of them are sitting here in the audience. They've got to
have a way to find out and figure out when they get a complaint and they go make a call on the complaint, figure out if they are in
fact in compliance or they're out of compliance. And I think that's the point I was trying to make by getting some typical sounds
that we hear every day and finding out the decibel levels. Because that's what these guys are going to be coming up against.
Unless we're going to issue a few hundred meters to everybody, it's -- I mean, we've got to keep this simple and somehow be able
so that the law enforcement officers can actually do their job effectively. I just feel for them. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Vigliotti"
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: My concern. as Joe Schmitt has said, we don't want to create a document that they
can't enforce because it's too strict and then we accomplish absolutely nothing.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schiffer"
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November 6, 2008
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So looking at this thing, and David, everything was done before 10:00, but essentially
there's no violation prior to 10:00. Yet some of these. especially at the bottom, if they started to occur after 10:00, then you would
have grolUlds for a violation.
MR. SCRIBNER: Potentially. I can't say that, because you have to take into consideration what the ambient noise is.
And as you remember through this ordinance, you have to do a subtraction based on what the ambient noise is versus the source
on noise is, and there's an adjustment made.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So procedure-wise, how would you get an ambient reading if the noise is occurring?
Would you come back some other time?
MR. SCRIBNER: No, what we would do until the noise is off, we might do -- walk down the street to an area that
doesn't have that noise source readily available. We'll take the noise in the neighborhood. We may go down the street quarter ofa
mile, take the noise so we can get an idea of what that noise is.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: You could maybe go on the other side of the building or something?
MR. SCRIBNER: You could go on the other side of the building, yeah.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And then let's say we came up with a number. We would then subtract -- and it's on the
next chart, I guess.
MR. SCRIBNER: Based on what your ambient noise is and source on, you have to go through a mathematical
calculation, yes.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Now, since the A scale was always there and we're not changing the numbers on it, you
have not been able to flag any of these supposedly nuisance noise sources, so you're really cOW1ting on the C to bring these things
in then.
MR. SCRIBNER: Well, I didn't include in this because they're multiple tables. There were no octave band violations
involved in this case. Usually with -- octave bands measure the frequency, and it's usually the low bass. In other words, we talked
about that at the last meeting, that thumping sound. tt's usually the lower basses that we'll find a problem with.
And in this case here that we presented, we didn't have those issues. They were primarily voices and some music in the
background, but it wasn't the low bass.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But can we just do this one') You do have an ambient reading. Let's pretend that's the
reading you got that day of 46, and let's pretend these lower ones are at night. Would this is be a violation?
MR. SCRIBNER: Well, you'd go to your table. And I believe it's -- if there's a difference of nine, you subtract--
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Zero.
MR. SCRIBNER: -- zero. So 57 after 10:00 would be a violation.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: You would do it, okay.
MR. SCRIBNER: These readings were taken before these time periods, because this is the time the complaints were
commg m.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Right. And I'm just trying to get a hyp -- so in other words, essentially there is a
condition where you would be able to get a violation at LaPlaya, ifnumbers are around or similar. I mean, I'm not saying you will,
but you could.
MR. SCRIBNER: Clearly you could have a violation there. We haven't identified one as yet.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: In the Stevie Tomatoes situation, and Jeffreferenced the study they did, is that
something that you think this new system would generate a violation for?
MR. SCRIBNER: For one thing, they have no amplified music out there. The issue's going to come up with voices. And
as we've got in the ordinance right now, reasonable use of a human voice unamplified. And it's all going to come down to that
what is reasonable use, you know, unamplified human voice.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And that's a non-metered test?
MR. SCRIBNER: I would -- you know, I'd hate to stand here and say oh, this is going to solve the Stevie Tomatoes
issue. Because if it did, I'd be asking for more money.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But it's not in your pay scale.
COMMISSIONER CARON: And you'd be getting it.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But isn't that section of code with the unreasonable voice, isn't that in there already? I
mean--
MR. SCRIBNER: Yes, it is. Yeah, we've added that. That's been added in.
COMMtSSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, we worked it. But in other words, you had that opportunity prior to even this --
MR. SCRIBNER: No, that was not in the previous code.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, that's not -- okay. All right, then let's wait till we get there. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Vigliotti0
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COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I'm concerned and confused. This whole noise ordinance for the most part was redone
and we're working on it because of the Stevie Tomatoes problem. And you're saying that this may not even resolve that problem
or address it properly.
MR. SCRIBNER: Well, I think I would be remiss if! said that you're going to solve a zoning issue with a noise issue.
And really, it comes down with that.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Okay.
MR. SCRIBNER: Probably not what anybody wants to hear, but that's the realty of it.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, well, let's move on and we'll get through it the best we can and decide what the best way
to proceed is.
Page 12 and ]3, they're not even full pages because of the cross-outs.
Anybody have any questions on 12 and 13?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: How about 14 and IS?
Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Jeff, just to make sure it's clear is that within mixed use projects you're going to be able
to have sound violations that Collier County would be dealing with, as opposed to the homeowners association or whatever
governing thing would be below Collier County in there?
MR. WRIGHT: Yes. In addition, I think that there are going to be two separate ways to address the noise complaint. If
you live in a place that has private covenants that address noise, you can always rely on those. It's a private remedy. But from the
code enforcement department's perspective, this ordinance would be their tool, not the HOA documents.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. t mean, I kind of have a concern going -- because mixed use projects are going
to have noise. I mean, you live above a restaurant by choice, you know, it's going to happen.
So in other words, Collier County's going to start coming in and being called upon to protect people in that situation
when essentially isn't it the -- I call it a homeowner, but the local government for that. 1 mean, should we get involved in that or
should we just stay out of mixed use areas?
MR. WRIGHT: Well, I feel that if we weren't addressing the mixed use context, the question would be why aren't you
addressing the mixed use context.
Now, if you're the person, the victim of sound and you have two remedies available, maybe that's a good thing for you.
You can go to your HOA, maybe that's more effective than calling code enforcement, I don't know.
But under this, you can call code enforcement and address the sound issue if you live in that setup, in that setting.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody else on Pages ]4 and IS?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: If not, we'll move to 16 and 17.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I have on 16.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead, Mr. Murray.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And 17.
Construction sounds. And it's the -- I guess the second sentence down where it says construction equipment that must be
operated near a residentially zoned area.
We've tried often to qualifY distance. Near is -- J understand the intent, but why did we choose near? Could we choose a
better word, a better description?
MR. WRIGHT: I agree, near is vague. I'm not sure why we chose it, and I'd be open to any suggestions for maybe a --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, I first wanted to find out whether you intentionally had it or whomever had it
there intentionally, because they didn't prepare to give you an alternative at this point. But I just wondered. It seemed. So we'll
take that under advisement. Let's go to 17 then.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Well, Mark, 16 I still have--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I said 16 and 17 at the sarne time, so let's let Mr. Murray get finished and Brad, we'll get
you next.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And then under 17 where I'm pointing to item three where it speaks to exceptions and,
you know, it's the issue that Donna Caron has raised and J have echoed about federal, state and county governments. But we also
hire businesses, we hire companies to do our construction work. Does that extend that authority to those companies as almost as
though they were our agents, or they are in fact our vendors then or -- I'm trying to think of the right word -- contracted party. Do
they -- are they an extension of the government in that context?
MR. WRIGHT: I think if they're hired to do government work, they would be--
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I do, too.
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MR. WRIGHT: -- an agent of the government.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: That's why I'm asking that.
So we're exempting them, and 1 know that's always become an issue, a touchy point.
Well, I don't know, I think that that is one step further down the road to not a good thing.
MR. WRIGHT: If I can clarifY, that exemption is an exemption from the emergency construction pennit requirement.
It's not an exemption from the sound level limit stated in the ordinance. So they still have to comply with the sound level of --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And I got it. I mean, I appreciate that and I recognize that it's probably something that
you can't do much about, and I won't focus on that one. And I'll try to work on a better word for nearer than in that other one while
you're talking. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Jeff, the phrase at the bottom of mixed use project it states, for purposes of this
ordinance -- the top of Page 16 now -- sound level limits applicable to mixed use projects shall only apply to sound affected
residential land uses or zoning located outside of the mixed use project and shall not apply to residential within the mixed use
project.
And that's conflicting with the thing we talked about on the other page where it's located within the same mixed use
project.
Is there -- I mean, I like the part that it doesn't include it. But if you look at the start on E, the fIrst sentence of E and the
last sentence before the chart, aren't they conflicting with each other?
MR. WRIGHT: I think, and maybe I should clarifY and if need be fIx the language. But what the intent is for mixed use
projects is to set a sound level limit that's lower, based on the enclosed unit.
Now, ifthey're -- let's just say a mixed use project has commercial and residential. You want -- let's just say they're
stacked on top of each other and the residential is a victim of noise, so they call up code enforcement, close all the doors and do a
measurement based on this scale.
Now, if there's residential property located outside of the mixed use project, as mixed use project is defIned, then these
lower levels would no1 apply to that. The normal levels would apply.
And that's what we're trying to capture with that last sentence. These levels -- these lower levels apply only to the sound
affected within the mixed use project and not outside of it. Outside of it you have higher levels.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But if you look at the sentence on the top of the page, it's essentially saying the
opposite ofthat, isn't it?
MR. WRIGHT: I see what you're saying. It should maybe be -- clarifY what the actual intent here is.
The intent is to not have it -- have these lower levels apply within the mixed use project but not to residential areas that
are located outside of the mixed use project. That's the intent. And I could make a note to look at the language and make sure that
there's no ambiguity.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: That sentence is actually saying the opposite of that. It's actually stating that it doesn't
-- it applies to residential units -- it does not apply within it.
But let's just go to the concept here. What you're saying, we're going to have a concept of higher decibel ratings; within
enclosed residential units, the doors are all closed, we're going to have a lower standard -- meaning a higher standard -- but I mean
lower decibel ratings within those units only in mixed use projects"
MR. WRIGHT: Yes. And multi-family projects. They both have that lower level.
And the idea -- this is a little bit beyond my expertise, but what I was told is that when you're in an enclosed unit, you
generally have a lower ambient level and you can base your readings on lower levels.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. I just--
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Can I get--
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Just a minute. Ms. Caron, she was next, then I'll get Mr. Vigliotti and Mr. Murray.
COMMISSIONER CARON: I'm not objecting to these levels. I'm just wondering why for regular residential those
levels can't be 53 and 45 instead 60 and 55.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Table one. Why couldn't we use those same for residential on table one?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aren't we at a property line on table one?
MR. WRIGHT: Well, I think the whole idea is you're inside of a box where everything's closed, and the sound that you
do hear is going to be easier to hear if you're inside of that box. So that's why they lower those levels for measurement purposes.
Now, if we put those lower levels, the 53, 45 levels, if we move those over to the residential in table one -- I think that's
what you're suggesting?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Uh-huh.
MR. WRIGHT: I think it would have a huge impact on residential areas and their ability to make sound. I mean,
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November 6, 2008
conversation alone is in the 60 range. So I mean, you'd have trouble with virtually any regular type of sound that's around the
conversational level and above.
Now, if you're inside of a closed residential dwelling, a mixed use and you hear Jet's say the coffee shop's got a musician
playing and you think it's too loud and you close all the windows, now if you spoke, that would be about 60. Now, if you hear
those sound levels exceeding 53, it's basically saying that that commercial venue below me is so loud that it's like having someone
talk to me in my own place. And that's why those levels are a little bit lower.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Vigliotti, then Mr. MWTay.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I'm really concerned again about this three-stol)' -- the mixed use project with the
residential. When they buy, they know what they're buying, and I don't want to make it too strict or too stringent on them when
they buy a residential unit above a cafe or above a coffee shop.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah, I've been working to see if I could come up with something better on this
business, and I'll give you something, we should relate to it a little bit morc.
My first thought, well, maybe we should just require shielding regardless, and that would be a burden on some
equipment, but perhaps not.
I guess the intent here is that near the residential -- now, near of course is a judgment call because somebody could be a
mile away, somebody could be 100 feet away, and that's what's disturbing about that. But the intent here, if I understand it
correctly, is that we want to make the sound muffled enough that somebody who might complain will have a reason to complain.
That doesn't make sense, my sentence, but I think you understood what I'm trying to say.
And I'm just wondering if we can't just -- can we require that they shield it if they're anywhere proximate, if that's -- and
I don't want to be vague either, but I'm struggling -- anywhere proximate to residential zoned properties?
Does that make sense?
MR. WRIGHT: Oh, it makes really good sense. I know what you're saying.
And what we did with the amplified sound, which we'll get to in a little bit, is we don't want to be arbitrary, but we do
want to base this on something reasonable and we have 2,500 feet that we felt was reasonable.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah, that's what I called to your attention that we tried in the past to relate.
But 2,500 feet under certain circumstances, you know, it could be 250 feet, too. Because the word near is the one that
kicked it off for me. And proximate may not be much, much better, but proximate does convey something a little bit closer than
near, because -- I think. You've got to be a grammarian here in order to do this job.
MR. WRIGHT: Well, I think -- I mean, near and proximate to me are synonomous. But I think -- I like the idea of an
objective distance. And I think maybe 250 feet.
I want to talk to the noise consultant to make sure that she can nod at the suggestion of a certain distance. If she can say
250 feet's reasonable, we can at least say that we have an objective opinion.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah, I think that would be better than the two words that were used, yes, thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: On the table three, the residential dwelling unit in the mixed use project, you're talking about
inside ratings; is that what I heard you say?
MR. WRIGHT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: On table one, when we talk about the readings for the various other zoning districts, we're
talking about outside readings; is that right?
MR. WRIGHT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Could we add the inside readings as another subset to residential? And that accomplishes a
balance between and consistency between what residential is expected to be, whether inside -- whether they're in a mixed use
project or outside.
MR. WRIGHT: It makes sense to me. I'm not sure if there's technical issues with it. But I think you're saying that two
standards would apply, inside and then outside.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. And then if the people across from LaPlaya go into their homes, shut all their windows
and doors and they have an inside problem that exceeds that decibel level, then that's another avenue to which they could explore
as far as having a violation.
MR. WRIGHT: It makes sense to me, and I'll make a note to discuss it with the consultant to see if there's any problems
with that.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Let's move on to Pages 18 and 19. Anybody have any questions on those two pages?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I do on Page 18, Jeff. Under G- I, the fourth Jine down, it talks about a one -- towards the
middle of the line, a one-time site specific amplified sound permit will be required for any commercial business or nonresidential
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land use.
Can you explain to me how that works? What's -- I just don't -- I'm trying to understand how this one time would work.
Do they actually come in and apply for a permit and they say we're going to make this much noise and they get a permit to make
that much noise?
MR. WRIGHT: Well, if they come in and ask for a permit saying that they're going to be amplifYing sound, then they
would get a permit for that. And until they violate the permit by violating the sound ordinance, they would be able to operate
without having to come back to the county and ask for annual pemlission.
Now, that's something that's up in the air as to whether it's annual or one time, but --
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, well, that's what I was getting at. So the one -- that's why I didn't understand why it was
just one time, but you haven't -- that's another where we could go annually or every five years or whatever.
MR. WRIGHT: Yes. And I had a note this morning from Ross Gochenaur. I don't want to speak for the zoning folks,
but they might have a preference as to one or the other.
MR. BELLOWS: For the record, it's my understanding that permitting a nightmare would be greatly problematic for an
annual -- a one-time permitting thing seemed to be a much more fair way and --
CHAtRMAN STRAIN: I don't have a problem with that. The annual didn't seem -- I mean, that just seems a huge cost
expense that's not needed. No, I wasn't trying to go there, I just want to make sure I understood what the sentence said.
On Page 19, on 6-A, fifth line, has a new sentcnce that starts, this distance will be measured according to a survey, if
provided by the applicant or by the official zoning map, aerial photograph, other reliable or accurate means.
So if the survey -- if the applicant doesn't provide a survey, then who pulls up the other document, staff, and they just
scale it on the document?
MR. WRIGHT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Under denial, the only basis for denial shall be a prior application -- adjudication of
violation. And that is on that property by that applicant, or can it be on that property by a different owner or by a different or
subsequent operator or something like that?
MR. WRIGHT: Well --
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I mean, if one guy violates it, it precludes anybody from ever operating on that property again?
MR. WRIGHT: What we were trying to capture is the same amplified sound activity. Regardless of whether or not the
ownership changes hand, you would have whatever that approved activity is.
If there's a violation of the ordinance relating to that approved activity, then we could deny them when they ask for a
permit.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: As long as the activity stays the same, it doesn't matter who the owner is. Yeab.
MR. WRlGHT: I believe that's how it's written now. It's something that we could change, though, that's why we're here.
MR. SCRIBNER: One of the things we wanted to capture is to make sure that if someone came in and got an amplified
music permit and were found in violation, they didn't hIm around and just sign the business over to their husband or their wife and
then get another permit and we're back in the same place that we were to begin with.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'm there. That's all, I was just trying to understand.
MR. WRlGHT: Mr. Chairman, if I may point out on Page 20 at the top, change of ownership or change of business will
not invalidate the permit, so long as the use remains the same.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. Okay, let's move on to Page 20 and 21. Are there any questions on 207
Mr. Murray?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: On item nine, enforcement, it refers to provisions of section 6-B, and when I went to
6-B I got really confused. Maybe I just don't understand what I'm doing here, but I went to Page 23, which is section six, and I
don't know what happened.
MR. WRIGHT: This is -- it's a drafting issue. If you'll see on Page 23, for example, you have the title in the ordinance in
bold that this is section six of the ordinance, but it changes section seven.
And within that section seven that we're updating, therels a reference to subsection 6-8. And I believe at subsection 6-B
is where you'll find your sound level limits.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, help me, get me to that, because I looked all over.
MR. WRIGHT: It would be Page 9, right in the middle. And if you look at Page 8, you'll see kind of the !low of this
drafting, where there's a section five which amends section six.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Whoa. Okay, Page 8 on my document.
MR. WRIGHT: Yes. And on Page 9 you'll find the specific 6-B that the cross--
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, I wasn't smart enough to go there. Sorry about that.
COMMISSIONER CARON: I don't think I got that either. You're not alone.
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CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions on 20, 21?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ifnot, we'll move to 22 and 23. Anybody have any on those two pages?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 24 and 25?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray?
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Okay, under L, operation of equipment. I know we talked about mosquito fogging and
we talked about refuse collection. I'm not sure we wanted to include it in that part of it.
We're going to now make it that mosquito fogging is not possible? You don't mean airplane fogging here, do you?
MR. WRIGHT: Well, I tried to make a change to reflect this concern that you have. And if you look at the top of Page
24, I added including noise /Tom mosquito fogging aircraft --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah.
MR. WRIGHT: -- to that exemption for aircraft.
Now, the context of that paragraph L you're referring to is residential and agricultural type of activities, including
mosquito fogging. So the implication there is it's the handheld version, not the airplane version.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Oh, okay. You know what? I didn't pick that up until this very moment.
But the other question about refuse collection, Waste Management gets out real early, we know that from the Stevie
Tomatoes document. Can we -- is that going to be something that's going to create more trouble than it's worth? You would know
best on that.
MR. SCRIBNER: They're still subject to the noise ordinance, those early morning pickups.
This exempts them during those hours that they wouldn't be subjected to the noise limits. So they're picking up refuse at
4:00 in the morning, they're going to have to comply to the noise limits.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Good.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, we saw a video, and unless it was highly amplified for our benefit, and I don't
think it was, I don't see how they can comply. And then you folks have to be there at the moment in time when that occurs --
MR. SCRIBNER: Right. My understanding is they're working on a separate solution to that, that particular Stevie
Tomatoes.
But I have another commercial property that we're working with right now that has that very same issue. And, you
know, I'd love to be able to tell Waste Management that they can't pick up trash before 7:00 in the morning, it would solve a lot of
Issues.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, I'm not sure I want to prevent them /Tom doing ajob that they need to do early in
the morning. What I'm concerned about is whether or not we have a realistic -- you know, if I could turn to it and say this is not
realistic, somebody who's in the business of doing that for a living can also maybe neutralize this ordinance.
MR. SCRIBNER: This says they can do it between 7:00 and 10:00, they don't need to confonn to decibel limits. After
those hours, if they're picking up at 3:00, 4:00 in the morning, they're going to do it quietly or they're going to be in violation of
the ordinance.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But in regards to Stevie Tomatoes, that's more along the lines in which you said earlier. That
issue that they're picking up there is a zoning problem. When that SDP was approved or when that PUD was approved, one ofthe
things that we should have looked harder at, and every board should now look at it and they probably will, is the location of
dumpsters and making sure the separation is further into the heart ofthe project and not along the perimeter where they keep
wanting to stick these things, where they're closer to residential.
MR. SCRIBNER: And it's not only looking at what's there to mitigate that, but the distance -- you could have a long
distance between a commercial property and a residential property. And Carillon Shopping Center is an issue that we're dealing
with right now. They've got water behind that shopping center that's letting that sound carry right across into that residential area.
And we're having to deal with that as we speak.
And dumpster issues are one of them, sweeping parking lots, another issue that we run into. They sweep parking lots
2:00, 3:00 in the morning and making noise.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Which you can't do during the day.
MR. SCRIBNER: Right.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions on 24 or 25?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ifnot, we'll move to 26, 27?
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(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, the next two are 28 and 29. Pages 28 and 29, anybody have any questions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, the next section is Pages 30 and 31.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray"
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I still have a problem with confiscatory practices. I think they are a double slippery
slope.
I know you've kept it in here probably after due consideration, but -- and I understand the intent, I truly do. But I worry
about going down that slope of confiscation. Confiscation of people's properties is a serious act, so I don't know.
And then further on D you have lawful possessor. And I appreciate that, that's somebody who is entitled to have
jurisdiction or responsibility. But they're punishable no matter who does it. So in other words, it's like the classroom teacher, all
right, if nobody admits it the whole class stays after school.
I don't know, is that theory still working today? Is that a good one?
MR. SCRIBNER: Well, from an enforcement perspective, we want to make sure that we don't become property
managers. The county should not be in the business of trying to deal with tenants and owners of property and getting in the middle
of that. We hold the owner of the property responsible. If they've got a bad tenant, they need to deal with that tenant. And that's
really what we're looking at in not only this ordinance but in other ordinances.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: But do you not deal with that bad tenant?
MR. SCRIBNER: We certainly do. We will have the noise violations. There may be a business operating there, but if
we've got the responsible property owner, we involve them in the process also. It's not going to be just with the tenant and code
enforcement or the county, we're going to get thc property owner involved too and make them a stakeholder in the whole issue.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I do appreciate that. You do have to get to the person who's really responsible to hold
them accountable, I do. But rm just wondering, there's so many potential circumstances.
Being reasonable, I think we'll be okay, but I still have a great deal of trouble with this confiscation part of it.
I gave you an example. I know you probably didn't want to have to deal with that example, but I think it's a valid type of
thing.
Do we have any other confiscatory practices in Collier County?
MR. SCRIBNER: From a code enforcement aspect, I can't think ofany right off the top of my head. I can tell you, we
have not confiscated anything. And code enforcement would not confiscate. As you notice, the ordinance is very clear, it's a
special magistrate --
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Yeah, I understand.
MR. SCRIBNER: -- or the Code Enforcement Board that would order anything like that.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Isn't the confiscation after three convictions -- three more or less adjudications of violation" So
that's someone who is flagrantly violating numerous times before they -- and they're found guilty of those three times, and then the
fmal conclusion is you're not going to stop, we're going to stop it for you by taking away whatever it is you're causing the noise
with.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, make no mistake, I'm not in favor ofthe person who is the baddie in this case. I'm
only concerned with the unintended consequences of allowing something as a practice that can be misused. And that's where I'm
coming from, not in favor of the person who's repeatedly violating the law.
MR. WRtGHT: If! may, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Sure.
MR. WRIGHT: We had comments from the public pointing out other jurisdictions that say just take the equipment
away when they're making noise. So this is an attempt to strike a balance between those concerns and reality. It does give the
option for confiscation, may be compensated, shall be grounds for confiscation. Hasn't ever been used and it probably is not going
to be a route --
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I would guess 99.9 percent of the people who were threatened with that would tend to
obey. And 1 guess JIm going to drop my arglUTIent on that one.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: The key word is may.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: On your Item B on Page 30 about the middle where it's underlined board and special magistrate
or court following the, and it says third adjudication, could you just add the words ofyiolation?
MR. WRIGHT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay.
COMMtSSIONER MURRAY: Oh, and I have one other, please.
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CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead, Mr. Murray.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Under 0, let me read it to you and see ifit makes sense to you. It shall not be a lawful
defense to assert that some other person caused such sound, but each lawful possessor or claimant of the premises shall be
responsible for operating or maintaining such premises in compliance with this ordinance and shall be punishable, whether or not
the person actually causing such sound is also punished.
I think there's a word missing in here. Somebody shall be punished or the act shall be punishable.
Do you understand what I've just referenced?
MR. WRIGHT: Yes. I think the act is a good suggestion. The offending act.
COMMtSSIONER MURRAY: Right, that's all.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Pages 32, 33, anybody have any questions?
Mr. Murray?
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: 33. Just a question on that Section 13, use ofloudspeakers. Other or other purposes.
Are we working into the world of political speech by any chance? Loudspeakers or public address systems used to produce sound
signals from any source for either advertising or other purposes may not be operated.
Political speech, does that get into it?
MR. WRIGHT: No, that's a good point, because we are also doing the sign ordinance, and when you do specifY
advertising type message or noise versus some other type, you do run into a content based restriction. So I think that's a great
point. I'm going to circle that and make sure that -- we don't want to be drawing distinctions between -- among content of the
message, unless we have to.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I think so.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Pages 34 and 35, anybody have any questions?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Thirty-five.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Jeff, on parenthesis four on 35, it's exempting lawful businesses, professional
occupations. Now, this section 12 is sound complaints without using a measured device.
Does this give an argument to somebody, again, the infamous Stevie Tomatoes, that in their lawful use of an outdoor
bar these noises that they're generating are essentially something to be expected from that business?
MR. WRIGHT: I think so. I think you're absolutely right, it is typical to the business.
Now, either way we're going to have -- you know, with the noise itself coming from voices, I'm not sure that measuring
without the use of a device would be something that we'd be doing out there. I would agree, though, that it is kind of typical to
that type of a business. Again, we run into that zoning problem.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: This is the defense, yes.
And then since this is the last page, one other question, and it does on the prior page reference residential, as per section
six, and it defmes residential as a couple classifications. One is if it's I guess habitually slept in or something, or habituated. What
would we do with a caretaker that is allowed in industrial zoning and stuff like that? Should we exempt that residential thing or
not? In other words, there are situations where caretakers -- and T guess go back to section six, the first --
MR. WRIGHT: I think I understand your question. Where are the boundaries around that habitually occupied
residential use.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yeah, Section 6 would be A, parenthesis one. Should we put an exemption for
caretakers? The code calls them caretakers. They're clearly allowed in certain -- but it's mostly industrial areas where you would
expect it to be noisy. I mean --
MR. WRJGHT: Well, I think that a caretaker would have a very good argument, regardless of where they're located,
that they are -- especially if they sleep there every night, that they're occupying habitually occupied sleeping quarters. Regardless
of where they're at, those shall be considered residential use. There is some question about where are the boundaries for that. Is it
the property line? And that's not addressed here. But I think in the case of a caretaker, we can add the word caretakers.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Well, do we want to -- I was thinking of exempting caretakers; in other words, not to
include caretakers. Do we want to provide this kind of noise protection for a guy sleeping in the middle of an industrial zone? I
mean--
MR. WRIGHT: Well, foreseeably it seems that the caretaker would probably be working for that same sound generator.
And ifhe really wants to raise a stink, he might not be sleeping there.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Well, he could be the caretaker across the street in, say, a mini storage or something
and he's watching -- you know, he's asleep at night; he's got nothing to do with that business.
I don't know, I just think if the caretaker section is really allowed for industrial kind of things for more security, I don't
think we need to give that guy the same protection that these other residential areas would have. That's all, thank you.
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CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, we're at the end of that document.
The second document back is the outdoor seating document that we stopped talking about a long time ago.
Hopefully the results are that the noise ordinance covers and takes care of any issues that could be created by an outdoor
seating ordinance, and then we donlt need to establish a separate outdoor seating ordinance, we can establish a noise ordinance
that addresses the issues to the extent they can be addressed and the noise ordinance goes by the wayside.
I think after the discussions and hearing some of the comments ITom staff, I'm not sure anything we do is going to get us
a solution to the problems that we have that are based on zoning. But this is probably a far better document than the one that's
currently in place.
Ms. Caron, then Mr. Vigliotti.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Well, I'd like to hear ITom the Sheriffs Department again and see where they think we're
going with this and is it going to help them or not. They're the ones who get the complaints. And are we solving issues or not? Or
are they going to get the same complaints over and over and over again and say the same thing to these poor people who cannot
sleep at night, I'm sony, there's nothing I can do about it, lady.
1 mean, J want solutions.
MR. BAKER: Sure. For the record, my name's Mark Baker, I'm currently the captain of the patrol division, Collier
County Sheriffs Office.
What you have in ITont of you that's been worked by several people -- and I'd like to thank Jeffs work on it, and Dave
Scribner, code enforcement, along with us working to massage this where we can have something that's definitely livable, will
more than likely pass Constitutional muster.
One of the things that helps us as the sheriffs office was when you all planned and rewrote the rewrite to decriminalize
the noise ordinance and make it a civil penalty in ITont of the special magistrate. That gives us a lot ofleeway that when we do
arrive on scene -- and most of our calls come in residential areas for a loud neighbor or a loud party or they've set up a band or
DJ. on the lawn. This helps us, because we get there and we obviously hear 11 and it's loud, raucous, jarring and it's out of time,
out of manner, out of place, unreasonable for this type of noise, we go up there and tell them to turn it off or we -- an officer
discretion will always play into that. We give them a chance to extinguish the noise or pack it up or quiet it down or whatever the
case may be to solve that community quality of life issue.
Should they choose not to do that and we come back or even at that first initial response, which generally we try to
educate the personnel first, the offender, educate them first, engineering and education enforcement is basically Sheriff Hunter
and Sheriff Elect Rambosk's philosophy.
So if you can't do it with engineering, meaning some of the businesses that we've had that we've working with code and
engineering, education on what's going on around, then it becomes the enforcement issue.
With being able to go in there and just cite the offender the civil citation and have them appear in front ofthe
magistrate, that helps us tremendously.
Will it solve the zoning problems that you guys are talking about today? Probably not. And again, it depends on what
the noise is and is it unreasonable.
Does that answer your question?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Strictly ITom a noise standpoint, will the Pebblebrook neighbors be helped? Strictly ITom
noise, not from zoning.
MR. BAKER: If you're talking about the human voices outside, no.
COMMISSIONER CARON: So it doesn't matter what time of day or night, when people are sitting outside screaming
and laughing and swearing and whatever else we can find on those tapes, this will not help those people.
MR. BAKER: Different point. If they're breaching the peace and we have a complainant and we arrive there for a
disturbance type of issue where their peace is being breached, then it would require a sworn statement from them, as well as the
witnessing officer must witness that and agree that this is a breach of the peace to cite that person with a state statute of breach of
the peace, which would require the offending person to also provide testimony in the county court as to that violation, as well as
the officer's own witness ofthat. They would have to witness that violation.
In areas regardless of what location it is, if people are at a location watching Sunday night football and the game ends
and they walk out of that establishment in the parking lot, some hundred people and they're talking about how well their team did,
that's probably not going to rise to the level of unreasonableness to cite a person that we could identifY in that group that's causing
a loud, raucous, jarring noise.
CHAtRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Vigliotti"
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: No.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Oh, I thought you had something.
Anything else, Ms. Caron?
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COMMISSIONER CARON: Well, I'm just -- you know, I keep trying to think of the examples. I know that the Sheriffs
Department was called out to a condo in Imperial for -- and I don't remember the name of -- Jack's Bait--
MR. BAKER: Jack's Bait Shack.
COMMISSIONER CARON: -- Shop is it -- yeah, Bait Shack.
Is what we have, is that going to be solved here"
MR BAKER: We worked with code enforcement and Jack's Bait Shack as far as bringing in acoustical engineering.
Although we didn't work as their agent, we tried to put all parties together, the offended party, as well as code, and Dave Scribner
can help us with that. We took several readings at different times.
And the violation -- and please correct me if I misspeak -- the noise meters that we use in the Sheriffs Department does
have those as well. Not every member, but we have an amount. We take the readings and then they have to go back and be
downloaded into a piece of machinery that reads that out.
Now, we have worked with them. Now, at times they've not been in violation when the person has made the complaint.
So ifthere's no violation, there's no violation to be cited.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Right.
MR. BAKER: And that's just where we're at. I mean, we can't obviously enforce something that's not a violation of an
ordinance or a Jaw.
COMMISSIONER CARON: No, I understand. But you did have violations.
MR. BAKER: And I believe they did have two there.
MR. SCRIBNER: Yes, we did. We did have a couple of violations there. They were cited. And we worked with them
afterwards. And really, what the violation was is the back door was being left open. Music was going out through that door. Just
keeping the door shut solved the problem. But they were cited several times.
COMMISSIONER CARON: In a lot of these instances, it usually can be something pretty simple. But unless you all are
there to tell people to do this, they won't do it. And people then will continue to call, and we shouldn't be using our resources, our
sheriffs resources or even code resources that way if it's as simple as shut the door.
MR. SCRIBNER: Well, I wish I could teach common sense, but that's not always possible.
We have been able to work with that particular establishment. And I don't know that we've had a complaint for a year or
two--
COMMISSIONER CARON: Good.
MR. SCRIBNER: -- on that place. But others pop up. I mean, I could name a half dozen right now that we have
complaints about.
And we're taking a more active approach. Not waiting for complaints to come in, we're actually sending people out with
the Sheriffs Department, taking noise readings around different establishments to establish noise levels. And if we fmd some
issues that are coming up, we're getting on them before it becomes a problem.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Let me ask the Sheriffs Department, do you have equipment that has both the A scale and
the C scale?
MR. BAKER: Yes, we do.
COMMISSIONER CARON: So all of your equipment is that.
And you say a good majority of your officers have that equipment, or what?
MR. BAKER: I don't know a number offhand. We have so many in each district. And as you know, the county's divided
into six districts.
So if we have a -- the one good thing about this noise ordinance that's drafted, we have those specific areas where we
don't have to use the meter. Now, if we have a repeat offender such as a business, then that makes it easier for us to coordinate
with code, have them corne out and let's work this as a case file to where we may even have a nuisance abatement issue here or
some other remedy, like I said, with the engineering and education enforcement.
So a long-term established business there or a business that's creating noise, we definitely probably do not take action
right at that time if the officer does not have a meter present. But they would document that incident. And if it meets the loud,
raucous jarring, obviously we can have them tone it down or we could now cite them.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Sure.
MR. BAKER: But if we don't feel like we're on solid ground with citing them due to the ordinance or the officer's
discretion, then we put together a case file and we work with our partners to try to solve that case.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Okay, great, thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Commissioner SchifTer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And I don't, Dave, you can answer it, you mentioned you were at the Bait Shack and
there were times where you couldn't cite them. But obviously were they making a nuisance at that time?
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In other words, what I'm trying to get at is we really want an ordinance that if they're a nuisance, if they're making noise,
they are disturbing, that the ordinance will catch it in the reading.
MR. SCRIBNER: I can tell you that any time we found a violation of the ordinance, we cited them for that. We gave
them one opportunity, we carne back a couple of times, found violations. I think they got two citations.
And it's the residents behind there. J wouldn't say -- I mean, some people are obviously going to think it was a nuisance.
I don't know what happens when people leave the bar sometimes, that's an issue, cars squealing in the parking lot. But we
addressed it whenever we found the violation.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But when you were standing there and it's to you a nuisance just by your own personal
instincts and you -- were you getting readings that would cause a nuisance, or were there times when you felt it was a nuisance but
the readings just arenlt coming in?
MR. SCRIBNER: I didn't take the readings myself so t can't testifY what the noise level was at that particular location.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Was that a frustration maybe the Sheriffs Department has" Do you stand in situations
where it's obviously a nuisance, it's obviously annoying, yet your equipment is not giving you the numbers you need to cite it?
MR. BAKER: This ordinance will allow us to cite them. Because if the officer feels it's unreasonable, loud, raucous,
jarring, then we -- and we can find the offending party and we witness that, we will cite them a citation that they would have to
appear in front of the magistrate.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. And you're familiar with the Stevie Tomatoes situation a little bit?
MR. BAKER: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So if you were standing in the neighbor's yard, would you cite these people out there
screaming?
MR. BAKER: Well, and again, you're talking about officer discretion, what they find to be unreasonable. So it is a
subjective standard.
The problem is, is when that group lets out, and I know we want to focus on Steve Tomatoes, but it could be any
establishment. When a group of people walk out talking about how well their team did or whatever they're happy about, all those
voices together at one time in a concrete environment of that cul-de-sac is probably going to be loud.
Now, is it going to be raucous, jarring and unreasonable for the time, the location and the activity? I can't attest to that
W11ess I'm there.
Now, if somebody's in the parking lot yelling obscenities, jumping up and down, and we have somebody who's saying
hey, this person's out of control, they're breaching my peace, then obviously we have a state statute that we can fallen (sic) under
as far as if they'll give us a sworn statement and we witness that. We can take care of that issue.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And I don't think we're concerned about the spontaneous, you know, situation like
people leaving the bar. Maybe that happens periodically more than it should, but it's the -- I think the thing that's constant that's
disturbing them.
Let me ask David a question. David, the -- and I live in a situation near a club where the music's fine, you could barely
hear it inside, but obviously they took the trash out every half hour and at that time you heard it.
Would this ordinance stop that? Because remember, there is the instantaneous thing. In other words, the timing of this
might be that if the guy opens the door and closes it, we wouldn't ever have a citation.
MR. SCRIBNER: Intermittent noise. The this ordinance isn't made to make things absolutely quiet. I would be remiss to
try and tell you that it would be a violation or wouldn't be without actually being there. I can't make that judgment at this point.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So there's nothing in here that would force them to build a foyer or something to stop
that noise.
MR. SCRIBNER: Again, if I went out there and I saw this happening, and even if it wasn't a violation, our policy has
always been to go and talk to the owner of the business and say you want to be a good business person, you want to succeed in
this commW1ity, you've got to get along with your neighbors. And most business operators are very in tuned to taking care of their
neighbors. Some better than others. But for the most part we have businesses that do complain. We have a lot of businesses in this
commW1ity that are very well within the noise limits. And we just have a few that have some issues. And some comply, some
work at it, and others we'll deal with.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: All right, thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Mr. Vigliotti?
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: The only statement I wanted to make is I agree with you that this noise ordinance
seems to be something that the Sheriffs Department thinks will work better and so does everybody else, so I see no need for the
seating ordinance at this time also.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, with that, Ray, do we have any public speakers? Thank you, gentlemen.
MR. BELLOWS: No speakers.
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CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I see Doug even shaking his head no. That means he blesses this, accepts this and says it's the
greatest thing since sliced bread, so --
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Mr. Chair"
COMMISSIONER CARON: We must have done something wrong.
CHAtRMAN STRAIN: Okay. What I'd like to suggest is we finally get this off our plate. And we've made some -- it's
going to come back on a consent for some tweaks that we've suggested.
I think out of everything we've talked about, the only one I -- Mr. Murray had a couple of cleanups to some language.
We talked about adding -- 1 mentioned one where we added a violation after adjudication.
But the idea of adding the inside decibel levels from table three to table one, is that the consensus of this group as well?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Well. we could, yeah, maybe reference on the bottom of table one that it also has to
meet that or something.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I don't care how it's done. Is that okay with anybody?
COMMISSIONER CARON: Yes.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yes.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: As long as it's not technically invalid, I can support that. And I think that you had
indicated you wanted to make sure --
MR. WRIGHT: I'll check on that, yes.
COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: -- that it was not a problem.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, are there any other concerns that we have"
Mr. Schiffer?
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I do. And Doug was not in the room when this was being done.
Doug, in the mixed use projects -- can you come up one second and let me ask you a question.
Doug, is it your understanding that the mixed use -- and the concern I had is that the first sentence of it on Page 15, and
the last sentence that starts on Page 15 seemed to contlict with mc. But is it your intent that this is an ordinance to be used within a
mixed use project, as opposed to the mixed use project to the surrounding neighbors?
MR. LEWIS: Doug Lewis, for the record, with Roetzel and Andress, here on behalf of Lutgert.
The intent is that the sound generating SOlITCe within a mixed use and where you have a sound receiving site, residential
unit within a mixed use community, if those are in the same, then the intent that these standards would apply. When you're within
the mixed use, you would look at these indoor standards.
When you have a situation where you have a sound generator from within a mixed use, a commercial business,
projecting sound outside of the mixed use project into an abutting residential community, then the table one limits would apply.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. In other words, remember that last sentence, let me read it read quick: For
purposes of this ordinance, sound level limits applicable to the mixed use project shall not apply to the sound affected residential
land use. Okay, I -- all right. If you're comfortable with that. Because I know you represent clients that build mixed nse units.
Okay, then I'm comfortable with it.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, we have reached a level of comfort, although maybe not complete happiness. We need a
recommendation to forward this document so it can come back on consent to the Bee with the discussions as noted, and the same
recommendation to dismiss -- recommend dismissal ofthe outdoor seating ordinance.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: So moved.
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Second.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Vigliotti made the motion as stated, seconded by Mr. Wolfley.
Is there any discussion?
Ms. Caron"
COMMJSSIONER CARON: I would just say, somebody needs to hang on to that outdoor seating in case we nm into
additional problems.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And as we go on, if this needs -- if the history shows or examples in the field show it needs to
be tweaked, ['m sure code enforcement will be back here recommending changes, and it will be easier to change this than it would
be other things. So you still have that protection.
Okay, with that we'll call for the vote. All in favor, signify by saying aye.
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER HOMLAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye.
Page 60
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November 6, 2008
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye.
MR. WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
CHAtRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed"
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion finally carries 9-0 after 18 months or more. So glad this one's put to bed.
MR. WRIGHT: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Or at least comes back on consent. Hopefully that's simple.
With that, there's no new business, there's no public comment. Is there a motion to adjourn.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: So moved.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Vigliotti. Seconded by?
COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Second.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Wolfley.
All in favor"
COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER HOMIAK: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye.
COMMISSIONER MlDNEY: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye.
MR. WOLFLEY: Aye.
COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye.
COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye.
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN STRAIN: We're adjourned. Thank you.
*****
There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order ofthe Chair at 1:52 p.m.
C~LLIE~L::t7~~t~~~~MISSION
Mark Strain, Chainnan
,;, . 'X
These minutes approved by the board on l~!)~'::"-_ as
j,,' presented _~ or as corrected ~___.
Transcript prepared on behalf of Gregory Reporting Service, Inc., by Cherie' R. Nottingham.
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TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF T~~ng
RECE\VED CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARIJ;oletta -q...--
DEe 19 2008 OF COLLIER COUNTY
~Dfcoun~(;OI1lIIIiroIIl. Naples, Florida October 15, 2008
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractor Licensing
Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business
herein, met on this date at 10:30 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION at
Collier County Development Services Center, 2800 North Horseshoe
Drive, Room 609-619, Naples, Florida, with the following members
present:
CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson
Richard Joslin
Eric Guite'
Lee Horn
Terry Jerulle
Thomas Lykos
Michael Boyd
Glenn Herriman
.
ALSO PRESENT:
Patrick Neale, Attorney for the Board
Robert Zachary, Assistant County Attorney
Michael Ossorio, Contractor Licensing Supervisor
'.
.
'1
..
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Copies to
16 dcJBis, 2008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is everybody ready? Are you ready in
back?
I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County
Licensing Board meeting for October 15th, 2008.
I'd like to start with roll call over here to my right, Mr. Jerulle.
MR. JERULLE: Terry Jerulle.
MR. HERRIMAN: Glenn Herriman.
MR. L YKOS: Thomas Lykos.
MR. GUITE': Eric Guite'
MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson.
MR. HORN: Lee Horn.
MR. BOYD: Michael Boyd.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning to all of you. So we're
100 percent, except for the one empty seat that we're still trying to fill.
Unless we can get Ann Keller to come back.
Next is additions or deletions to the agenda.
Good morning, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: Good morning. Ian Jackson, License
Compliance Officer, for the record.
The staff has two additions. Under new business, the first of
which is Mr. Steven Speak for review of credit report.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Say the last name again?
MR. JACKSON: Speak. S-P-E-A-K.
Second of which is a Mr. Snyder for review of credit report.
That's all the additions or deletions for staff.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody have anything else?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hear a motion to approve as
amended? .
MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin.
MR. L YKOS: Second, Lykos.
Page 2
latlbJ fi',1008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. L YKOS: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Minutes, last meeting. Have you had a
chance to review them?
I need a motion to approve them, if they're okay.
MR. L YKOS: So moved, Lykos.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second?
MR. JOSLIN: Second.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All in favor?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. LYKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, so we are done.
Discussion. While I've got you up, Mr. Ossorio, I just wanted to
go on the record of handing this to you.
MR. OSSORIO: Is this my walking papers?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, it's not. Some air conditioning
contractor went to a lot of time to send me a three-page letter, and has
some complaint about the way the department is handling them. And I
read the first three lines; put it back in the envelope. I will not deal
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'octo er 15,2008
with it. So it's yours.
Whoever did that, they were out of line. We only hear cases that
are presented by the county through the ordinances developed by this
county. And for us to get involved in a case outside of this hearing is
in violation of the Sunshine Law.
So whoever takes next chairmanship, be aware of that. Anything
coming to your house we don't read or deal with. Okay?
First up, discussion, David Taber, Jr. Are you present?
MR. TABER: I am.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would come up here to this first
podium, Mr. Taber. I need you to state your name and I'll have you
sworn m.
MR. TABER: My name is David Taber from In Balance, Inc.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I probably don't need you sworn in,
but just in case.
MR. OSSORlO: Mr. Chairman, before we get started, for the
record, Michael Ossorio, Contractor Licensing.
Mr. Taber, he is the president of In Balance, Incorporated. And
what his company is, is basically a facilitator to help do processing for
registering with the state.
And they also are knee-deep in credit reports. And you've
probably seen a lot of his credit reports in the last several months.
And I thought it would be good that I bring Mr. Taber in to talk
to you about how the credit report works. And I know the licensing
board has some questions about -- questions about personal credit
versus business credit and why there was not a lot of credit on his
business. And so Mr. Taber gladly wanted to come in and talk to you
about credit issues or about, you know, applying to the state for a state
registration and that nature.
And I thought that next couple of months I think we might have
some more speakers involved with the licensing about licensing board
and how they work in other jurisdictions too as well.
Page 4
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Ocfober 15, 2008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Yeah, I do need him sworn in,
because he's going to talk about Mr. Speak, who you've thrown on the
agenda. That I guess we previously denied?
MR. OSSORIO: No, I believe Mr. Speak was not denied. I
believe he just has some questions pertaining to his credit. I don't
know if Mr. Taber's going to go ahead and add anything to Mr. Speak,
but he might.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, floor is yours, Mr. Taber.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
MR. TABER: The -- we do a significant number of credit
reports for the State of Florida. We're a nationally recognized credit
reporting agency contracting through the Merchants Credit Bureau to
produce Experian credit reports for the purpose of contractor licensing
for the state. And we're also of course producing credit reports for
Collier County and Lee County and other counties around the state for
the purpose of licensing of contractors with those counties.
We produce both personal credit reports and business credit
reports. We've -- the business credit reports are often without much
material.
The most important thing I believe with these credit reports is
our search for public records. The -- it's important to know if there
have been any judgments, any liens, judgments or problems with a
person's credit history. And -- that have caused some sort of a filing.
So those are recorded both on the personal and on the business
credit report.
There are a lot of businesses that have very little credit on their
record. And the reason for that is any new business or even a business
that's been around quite a while that applies for a credit card, a credit
card company, if they pull the credit and they don't see any credit
activity, they won't issue a credit card to the business. They'll issue a
credit card to the person and they'll bill it to the business. But
technically the card has been issued under that person's Social
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Security number.
So we find that there's often not much business credit history.
And when there is, there isn't much there. It shows what -- that there
have been a certain number of credit cards issued and the balances
maybe that exist on them, but it doesn't give you the kind of
information that you get on a personal credit report. Unfortunately
that's just the nature of the business credit report. I'm sure you've seen
them. They don't tell you very much. But they do tell you whether
there are any public records, and that's the most important thing.
On the personal credit report, it's much more detailed. You'll see
the names of the organizations that people have borrowed money from
or taken out credit cards with. You see the line of credit that they have
or the maximum amount of money that they can draw on. You see
their monthly payments, you see the last payment they made, the date
they made it. You can see whether they're past due. You can see, of
course what condition the account is in, is it paid, is it open, is it
closed.
And then most importantly, the last column, is it a current
account or not. And I think that's the column that you'll probably want
to focus on more than anything, the last two columns, if you see
problems with any line items on the credit.
Of course there's also the public records search, and you want to
see a zero there. Or if there is a record of a lien or a judgment, you'd
want to see it satisfied.
The state requires that it be satisfied. And we have to provide
proof or we submit applications on behalf of the licensee that all these
judgments have been satisfied or they won't issue a license, or they'll
go before the board and have to explain why it wasn't satisfied. In
which case, you know, I mean, ifthere's a bankruptcy obviously it's
not going to be satisfied.
So that's kind of what we do. We probably -- we probably do
three or four credit reports every day, sending them somewhere. And,
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you know, with the state these credit reports have to be sealed. You
don't require that. Lee County does require that they be sealed. I don't
know if it's a good idea or bad idea.
But one idea that we have that might protect the integrity of the
report is if you have all the reports be faxed to Collier County
Licensing from us. So at least you know where it came from. You
have a fax cover sheet. And we do a lot of that now. I'd say probably, I
don't know, a third of the reports we do or a quarter of the reports we
do are currently being faxed. I think it's a good idea. I don't know that
it's a great idea for us to fax them to the person who authorized us to
pull their credit and then have them handle it and produce it. But --
you know, so it's an idea for you.
We do have everyone sign an authorization authorizing of course
their credit be pulled, which we feel is important and complies with
the Merchants Credit Bureau regulations and compliance.
We do regularly comply with the compliance ordinances from
Merchants Credit Bureau. In fact, they're coming to our office next
week to do an on-site review of our practices and how we're handling
these reports and how we're storing them and so on, which is
important for the integrity of the client.
MR. JOSLIN: I have a question for you.
From time to time we get applicants in here that are coming in to
update their license or renew license or qualify for different entities
and they need to get a credit report on this -- for this to go through.
And on it sometimes we'll have people that have a judgment or lien
that is on their credit report. And they come in and they say to us that,
well, that's been paid.
MR. TABER: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: When it's been paid, how does the credit bureau--
or how does your credit reporting agency determine that it has been
paid, and what proof do we have that it has been?
MR. TABER: Well, they should be able to provide proof to you.
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October 15, 2008
The state licensees have to. So they actually have to produce some
sort of a letter or a form or something that proves they've been
satisfied.
And occasionally someone has satisfied the judgment, but the
credit reporting agency doesn't have it recorded. We went through one
of those recently.
Well, that resulted in a letter campaign and a proof to the credit
bureau that that's been satisfied. And then it takes them about 30 days
from the time they receive the proof to pull it -- to take it off the
credit.
So what's most important to you and to the state is something in
writing that proves that it's been satisfied.
MR. JOSLIN: And is that the responsibility of say the applicant
or is that something that your agency would do?
MR. TABER: It's the responsibility of the applicant. They have
to go get it.
MR. JOSLIN: Have to get it.
MR. TABER: You bet.
MR. JOSLIN: And then provide it to you --
MR. TABER: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: -- so it verifies that it's been paid.
MR. TABER: Absolutely.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? Any other questions?
MR. OSSORlO: I have two questions.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Taber, on FIN numbers, when a business
changes its name but keeps everything, actually the corporation's the
same, just changing the name and the FIN number is exactly the same,
does the credit report track FIN numbers when you deal with
businesses so you'll see the business change, the d/b/a change, but the
FIN number didn't change?n
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MR. TABER: Yeah, when we pull the report, we pull it by the
BIN number. And we'll see multiple names come up under that
number. And then we click each one of them, and we'll pull the credit
for all the names.
MR. OSSORIO: What does it cost for a credit report?
MR. TABER: We charge $65 for a business report and $30 for
personal. We charge an extra $5.00 if we have to mail it. And that's,
you know, we believe competitive with everybody.
The business reports -- and actually, you know, we're a reseller,
so we're buying them from another organization.
MR. L YKOS: I have a conunent for our consideration. And Mr.
Neale, maybe you can help with this. But earlier you said that when a
business entity doesn't have a long credit history that we can get a
credit report where the personal credit report is very lengthy and the
business credit report is very short, maybe only has one or two other
entities on it.
We're supposed to make judgments on credit based on business
credit, not based on personal credit. Well, what you're telling us is that
a lot of creditors will give credit to an individual but not to a business.
It seems like we're making judgments based on business credit
when we really can't get information -- most of the information is on
the personal, not on the business. Yet we're required by our ordinance
to make decisions based on the business and not the credit.
MR. TABER: Absolutely.
MR. L YKOS: So it seems like -- I'm not saying we rewrite the
ordinance, but maybe we can get a little guidance. When we have one
of those situations where there's almost no business credit and a lot of
personal credit, you know, we're driven by the ordinance to only use
the business credit. It just seems like maybe we're not using the right
information to make a decision.
MR. TABER: I would agree. I believe the business report is
important, particularly to search public records and make sure there
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October 15, 2008
hasn't been a problem with the business. But I think that, you know,
perhaps the personal report should be very important in the process.
The State of Florida is actually in the process of considering --
they actually created a regulation that required that the licensee have a
minimum credit score of 660, which was interesting. And then they
didn't enforce it, which was also interesting to us.
We learned with about this in January, and we thought it was
going to really change the landscape of contractor licensing with the
state. But I think maybe the score was too high in light of this
economy and what was happening, so they didn't enforce it. But that is
a regulation that's on the books with the state as we understand it.
So that personal score is very important, to the state anyway.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other comments?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Appreciate you coming in.
We have been critical of some credit reports lately. Yours is not
one of them. There's enough information here for us to make out.
Some people are giving us one-page reports that don't say much of
anything, and we can't deal with that, whether personal or business.
MR. TABER: Why don't I put together a little report for you that
helps you read at least the personal report. And I'll produce that and
provide it to your office. I'll show you the lines and what they all
mean and give us something to --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to have that.
MR. L YKOS: That would be wonderful, thank you.
MR. TABER: I'd be happy to. You bet.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Since you brought the issue up, let me
just let you know and anyone else that's concerned, the credit reports
do not leave this room. We leave them here and county shreds them.
So the information is kept safe.
MR. TABER: Great. Thank you very much.
MR. L YKOS: Thank you, Mr. Taber.
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......Oct6ber 15, 2008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thanks for coming in.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio, year end report, is that
you?
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct.
For some time I know that the licensing board for many months
and many years have always said, well, what are we doing on a
monthly basis. And then we got away from county staff giving you a
monthly report, because it was kind of redundant.
And I thought this year well, maybe we'll start something -- this
year we'll start something new at the end of the year, which obviously
it's October. September is the end of the year. And I thought we'll just
give you what we've done for the whole 12 months. And this is what
we've done from September to September.
And I'm not going to go into each and every line item, but
obviously I looked through last -- 'OTs report, and I think we're up
about 30 to 40 percent from last year.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And the one thing this doesn't
have on here is the phone calls you get.
MR. OSSORIO: No, but if you look down on the bottom, it says
contacts made, 7,000, and that is actually job sites, how many job
sites, you know, do we go to.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I heard the figure one time for
phone calls. It was -- it's an astronomical daily number.
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, we do get a lot of phone calls.
That's all I have on that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You guys are definitely staying busy.
Anybody have any questions on the report?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's something you might want to hang
onto. It's good to carry around.
MR. L YKOS: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that it?
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October 15, 2008
Thank you, Michael.
New business. Chris Weston, are you present?
MR. WESTON: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would, sir, come to this
podium, I'll have you state your name, sworn in and we'll hear what
you don't agree with.
MR. WESTON: My name's Chris Weston.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's all yours, Chris.
MR. WESTON: Okay. Well, I'm assuming you guys have read
this letter that I wrote.
As you know, I'm here today to contest a $300 citation that I
received for trimming some pygmy date palms.
These pygmy date palms are ornamental palm trees. They're
small. Now, granted the ones that I was given the ticket for were about
so tall. Most of the pygmy date palms that we trim are quite small.
Now, I was unaware that this was illegal or considered unlawful
by the county. And I have been providing lawn service in Collier
County since 1981.
I was informed that I needed a landscaping license to trim these
trees.
Now, I think that that's pretty strange. Because landscaping by
definition is installation of such plants. What I'm doing is cleaning up
and keeping -- maintaining the properties, which is lawn service. So
therefore, what I'm doing should be legal and lawful for me to
accomplish for my clients.
Imposing such a law not only hurts small businessmen like
myself, but also citizens who hire lawn services by adding the high
price of having to hire a tree or a landscaping contractor to do a simple
job that should be included in regular lawn service at no extra charge.
Basically a lot of these landscaping companies don't do lawn
service. Ones that do are quite large. They don't handle small yards. I
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October 15, 2008
have people who I've been working for since 1982. These people are
on a fixed budget. These citizens are only paying me maybe 100, $120
a month to do their lawn. I'll cut the grass, keep their lawns looking
beautiful and maybe clip a couple little palm fronds for them. They
can't -- these people aren't going to pay extra money to have a tree
company.
Landscaping companies and tree services charge $60 an hour
and up. So this is a big expense for the citizens of Collier County.
So, you know, basically by imposing a law, you're not only
hurting people like me, but you're hurting your citizens as well.
Everybody who I've talked to about this, and everybody -- and I
know a lot of people in Naples, I went to Naples High School. And
everybody I've -- and I know a lot of lawn service guys. Everybody
I've talked to has been really surprised and shocked. You know, it's
always been our understanding that we can do lawn service -- I mean,
we can trim a tree from the ground with a pole saw or with our little
hand clippers, you know, little omamental palms.
So basically nobody really knew that this was -- that this was
illegal. Everybody I've told has been shocked.
And I was never warned that this kind of trimming would be
considered unlawful by the county.
You know, these pygmy date palms are considered landscaping
plants by my clients. And they expect this of me. So this is very unfair
to impose a law like this.
I was never wamed, you know, that I could get in trouble for
this. I know that ignorance ofthe law is not an excuse, but I think that
a law like this was kind of -- it's -- this isn't something that was made
public knowledge by anybody who I know. Certainly the clients, any
of my clients don't know about it.
I don't compete with tree services, I don't compete with
landscapers, and I don't compete with irrigation companies. What I do
is I provide a valuable service to my clients at a price that they can
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october 15, 2008
afford.
So basically I see that -- you know, I see the need for having
proper licenses to do tree trimming. You know, tree trimming can be
very -- you know, tree trimmers have a really high overhead; their
insurance is quite high and their work is dangerous.
The work that I was doing was not dangerous. I don't see the
need to take a -- to read a book on safety in arboriculture to maybe
trim a palm frond from the ground with a pole saw or with little hand
clippers.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I'm with you.
First of all, thanks -- I've never been called prestigious board
member before, thank you.
MR. WESTON: Yes, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: He was talking to me.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, was he? I thought it was me.
I knew this was going to happen. It's a long story how this thing
came about, and it was with the arborists and a whole bunch of other
things.
Didn't we make some provision for this, Mr. Neale, when we did
this?
MR. NEALE: I thought -- Mr. Zachary and I were just talking
about it, and I thought that there was some discussion, and Michael
may remember better, of if it was minor pnming done while on the
ground that it was sort of exempt from the tree trimming. But I'm
groping to try to remember exactly what it was.
MR. OSSORIO: I'll take it from here.
MR. NEALE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: If you recall, matter of fact, it was in this room
itself, I don't know, six, seven, eight, 10 months ago, whatever, last
year at this time.
We take a stance on tree contacting that if it's incidental the job
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October 15,2008
you're there doing -- in other words, if the homeowner comes out and
says basically hey, you know what, can you trim that tree for me, I
have no problem with that. They can trim the tree for you.
But they're there -- their primary job focus, they're going to do
one or two trees and they're going to be doing other things on the
project.
And you're absolutely right, we had one here 10 months ago.
This particular case, and I'll get into the case if you want to, is
that Mr. Weston, this is a commercial job site, and that is, if you want
to call it, is a tree, and is required to be trimmed properly.
And it's not one tree. He was contracted separately to trim the
trees. So it's not really incidental to the job he's there to do. He's there
to do lawn maintenance, but he's also there to on a separate contract
verbally -- I suppose you could talk to the investigator who was on the
job site, that he got contracted to trim all these palms. Now, I don't
know how many are there, you can talk to the investigator, but it
wasn't like he was there, you know, trying to provide a service and not
getting paid for it. Unfortunately Mr. Weston got paid to trim trees.
And we have an ordinance against that. It says if you trim trees
you must have a license and you must take the exam. So it's a little bit
different than something incidental when he's there to provide a
service to his homeowner.
MR. WESTON: Excuse me, sir. Quite the contrary. I did not
receive any extra revenues for doing that. These people asked me, will
you please trim these robelini palms. Didn't make an extra dime. It
was part of their service.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, okay, let me go next.
Who wrote the citation?
MR. OSSORIO: Allen Kennette.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Allen, would you come up, state your
name, I'll have you sworn in.
MR. KENNETTE: Yes, Allen Kennette, Contractor Licensing
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October 15,2008
Field Investigator.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
MR. KENNETTE: This was out at the Gulfshore Boulevard
complex. They were on -- three gentlemen were on ladders trimming
trees with clippers. I stopped to see exactly what they were doing,
because they have a lawn service only.
The foreman was there, he said that the management asked him
to go ahead and trim up the trees on the property and add the cost to
their norn1al maintenance bill.
I asked if Mr. Weston was there. He said no, he's not. I tried
calling him on his number that we have listed. I had to leave a
message.
When he did finally return my call, he was irate about it. I tried
to explain to him how trimming that many trees, over 24 trees on the
whole property, is over and above what his lawn service can do.
He didn't want to hear that. Wanted to take it as far as he could
and then hung up on me before I had a chance to explain it to him.
The manager there came over before I left and asked me why I
was there, what I was looking at. And I informed him that I was
checking the service that you had to do the tree trimming, and he said
yes, that they had asked the foreman to go ahead and trim those trees
up and add it to the bill.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. WESTON: Add it to the bill part's not tme.
And my -- the people who I work for will testify on that behalf.
That was part of their service. We didn't make any extra money
for doing it.
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Kennette, just a question. I take it this is a
commercial account; this is a --
MR. KENNETTE: Yes, it is.
MR. JOSLIN: -- commercial condominium or thereabouts?
MR. KENNETTE: It's a commercial condominium, yes.
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October 15,2008
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Weston, how many other commercial
condominiums do you service?
MR. WESTON: How many others? Six.
MR. JOSLIN: Six more?
MR. WESTON: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: So I have a hard time understanding this, but what
you're asking us to do is to kind of turn our backs on you because you
were doing something that's out of the scope of your license.
And who's to say that maybe you were trimming the trees on the
other five condominium complexes the same way you're doing this, as
a favor. And would that be something that would be correct to do, in
taking business from someone that does have a license to do the work
that you're doing for free?
MR. WESTON: Okay. Now again, you know, this seems to me
like it's really a gray area. Because first of all, most of the pygmy date
palms are very small. Is it really fair to ask even a commercial
property to get a separate service to come in and trim little trees with
hand clippers?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, Mr. Weston, that's not for you
to decide.
What I'm offended by is the fact that you come in here and tell
us you're not using ladders. You were using ladders. You go so far as
to stand next to a pygmy date palm that's maybe seven feet tall and
you're holding a little pair of clippers and a cut-off dead branch, and
you think that we're going to be so ridiculous as to fall for all of that.
When I hear that you had ladders on the site and three men up
trimming 24 trees, yes, it does require a license, by county code.
MR. L YKOS: I make a motion we uphold the citation.
MR. JOSLIN: I second the motion.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
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October 15, 2008
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. QUITE': Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. LYKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir.
Ben Johnson, are you present?
MR. JOHNSON: I'm here.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't be afraid, we're not always that
way.
If you would, state your name and I'll have you sworn in, sir.
MR. JOHNSON: Ben Johnson, director of Ramp Doctors,
Incorporated.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And you got a citation also.
What are the particulars with you, Mr. Johnson?
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, basically in the letter that I had printed
up for you guys, you --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir.
MR. JOHNSON: -- pretty much have the story.
Well, I've been in business seven years, and I do specialty
carpentry and specialty type structures. And there's only a handful of
guys in the country that do it. And I pretty much sell to cities,
municipalities, government jobs. And basically I usually deal with
their risk management as far as their requirements that the cities or
counties needs.
And, well, when I first got the license in this county I was under
the assumption -- well, I went to the -- one of the windows over there
and talked to somebody, and I had asked if! need -- you know, if!
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October 15,2008
have to get any special licensing for what I do. Because the structures
I do are not attached to a dwelling, they stand separate. And most of
the other cities and counties view it as they're buying an object, like
you'd walk into Wal-Mart, purchase something and set it in the area
where it's going to be used. Even though this is a large structure, it's
considered a n most of the other counties consider it a manufactured
product.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you help me a minute. I'm a little
bit not sharp today. What is it you do? You build ramps?
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, I make the skateboard ramps for
extreme sports for n
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, now I'm with you. I was in a
wheelchair going up a ramp. I'm sorry. Okay.
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, nothing that attaches to a dwelling or for
handicapped --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just skate boards, okay.
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, these are structures that you see like on
TV, on X Games and n and basically there's only a handful of people
that do it. There's maybe about 25 in the country. So, you know,
obviously I have to be n to make sales, I pretty much cover the
southwest states.
So I have n you know, I live in Collier myself. I've been a
resident since about '88. And I've been incorporated for seven years.
And so when I came in, I wanted to see what I needed to get all my --
you know, so I was able to pay taxes, get my license and zoning and
everything.
And they had told me, the guy -- and actually I saw him walking
around, he still works here. I don't know his name. He's a short guy.
He had -- kind of stocky with real hairy arms.
But anyway, he was the guy that I talked to seven years ago. I
went to him, I said -- I told him, I build these structures, they don't
attach, they're specialty carpentry, do I need to get any type of
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licensing? And he told me no, just occupational is fine.
So for seven years I was under the assumption that I was
working fine. And then when I -- I think it was Allen? Yeah, he came
out to inspect what we were doing, and I got issued citations (sic) for
not having a carpentry license when I was doing a manufactured
product.
But I ended up taking the test. I got the license I needed now.
But basically I just wanted to see, because there was no prior basis for
having a ticket in this, to see if I could have it taken off, because --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you familiar with the Fleischman
Park skate area?
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, that's where we're working right now.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you know this board shut that
project down when it was in the middle of construction?
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, that was a -- they had subcontracted--
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, no, no, no, no. We had a guy
from California that didn't have a license. And the city came in here,
they had issued him a permit. And we shut the project down.
The guy went and got his license at Gainesville Testing, what,
within about two weeks, finished the project, came back in here,
thanked all of us for making him go get a license, and everything
turned out fine. Now here we come again.
MR. JOHNSON: Oh, I did that. I mean, I didn't want to argue.
Technically --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You just want -- you want the money
to go away.
MR. JOHNSON: Well, I don't -- well, yeah, basically. Because
what happens is it's -- well, being that I'm a vendor for the county, I
technically -- I look at my operating costs at the end of the year, it
goes into my operating costs, and technically I have to re-bill the
county for the work I do. So it's kind of like you're shooting yourself
in the foot. You know, us being county employees and that I have to,
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October 15, 2008
you know -- but I mean, I can pay it, but I really try to keep costs low
as far as, you know, my operating costs and everything.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah.
MR. JOHNSON: But just to --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I didn't feel the $300 coming out of
my pocket when you explained it that way, but --
MR. JOHNSON: Well, I mean, it all adds up. You know, that's
why I try to do the -- you know, get the requirements that the risk
management needs and --
MR. JERULLE: Where was the citation issued for?
MR. JOHNSON: It was issued at Fleischman Park. I was --
MR. JERULLE: At Fleischman Parle
MR. JOHNSON: -- in the middle of a contract with the City of
Naples.
MR. JOSLIN: Wasn't the other in Fleischman Park also?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's the same one.
MR. OSSORIO: Exactly the same one.
I'm going to give you a quick history, and maybe I'll give you a
synopsis of what happened.
Allen Kennette went out there. We -- obviously you can look at
the photographs. And they are -- this is engineered specifications. And
it's built on-site. It's clearly a carpentry contractor. And he even says
that he's a carpentry contractor, but he's a specialty.
And under the code, once he took the carpentry exam, I
reviewed his affidavits and his experience, and per the contractor
licensing ordinance I restricted him only to do ramps.
So he has a license now for carpentry contracting, restricted to
ramps only. Because he didn't show anything that he was in high-rises
or commercial buildings or residential property.
But clearly, if you can look at -- if you'll hear Allen Kennette's
testimony, the fact that he took -- he went to bid with the City of
Naples and he's the only one without a license. And unfortunately (sic)
Page 21
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. OCtooer 5,2008
that he is the cheapest by far, of course.
And we've -- Mr. Johnson's come in, he was candid with us,
signed up to take the exam and he passed the exam just like the other
gentleman did from California.
And so we try to be consistent. Clearly this is not a piece of
furniture, this is a setback issues (sic) with engineering specifications
which they review through the planning department through the City
of Naples, and it was built per plans on-site. Workers' comp was
needed, the whole nine yards, which Mr. Johnson does have.
And we did issue a stop work order and we did release a stop
work order once he obtained the necessary license to do ramps.
MR. JERULLE: Did he receive a permit from the City of Naples
to do this work?
MR. OSSORIO: City of Naples did not want to issue a building
permit, but they did -- and that is a city building department's issue. I
don't know why they did not issue it. But it did go through their plans
examiners and they did review it for specifications.
And I believe that there's going to be some engineer's
specifications sign-off on that.
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, we had it engineered. You can look the
plans up on the city under purchasing.
MR. OSSORIO: Just throw in a comment that -- and Bob Dunn
will probably talk a little about that, if he needs to. But it's not
uncommon that you get an engineer to sign off on the project versus
have a building inspector go out there and sign off on it.
MR. JOSLIN: So what you're saying is that he started the project
without the correct license, then got cited for the citation. Then came
and took the test and passed the test and now he has a license that's
legal --
MR. OSSORIO: He has a --
MR. JOSLIN: -- to do the work? But in the meantime he got the
ticket.
Page 22
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October 15,2008
MR. OSSORIO: Yes, he got the ticket on the job.
MR. JOSLIN: On the job, without the license.
MR. OSSORIO: Without the license. And the stop work order,
per the code.
MR. JOSLIN: Gotcha.
MR. OSSORIO: And then he came into compliance, which we
have many meetings with people that get citations, we always have a
meeting with them, tell them how to get into compliance, that's what
our main focus is. He is -- took the exam. I think he drove up to Ocala.
I don't know ifhe spent the night or not, but he did go up to Ocala,
Gainesville. Took both parts. I think he failed one or two of them at
one time, and passed. Came down. I reviewed it. And I restricted his
license due to the fact that he didn't show anything except ramp
building. So I restricted it to carpentry of ramp building.
MR. JERULLE: You bid this project to the City of Naples?
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, I've been bidding projects--
MR. JERULLE: And they awarded you with a contract to build
MR. JOHNSON: Contract, yeah.
MR. JERULLE: -- these ramps?
MR. JOHNSON: I have a 90-day contract to --
MR. JERULLE: I just have a hard time with the city awarding
him a contract to do the work and then we come in after the fact and
give him a fine. I just have a problem with that.
MR. JOHNSON: Well, the licensing, like I said -- I mean, if you
wanted to establish that, that I needed a carpentry license, I'm okay
with that. And [ went ahead and did that.
But the only thing I wanted to argue was just the reason for the
ticket was there wasn't a basis at the time that was clear. I mean, if -- I
have it listed manufacturing wood products on my occupational
license, and the county knows what I've been doing for seven years.
And if one year you decided, oh, wait, this guy has to have a
Page 23
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October 15, 2008
carpentry license, I should have got a letter in the mail saying, you
know, I'm going to have to redo my requirements, take some test.
But I didn't get that. I just -- somebody just walked on the job
without waming or any notice and just gave me the ticket. So that's the
-- the only reason, I was just trying to argue the ticket. I'm not arguing
the licensing, which I did get, so --
MR. JOSLIN: I don't really think that there's any reason to argue
the ticket either then. Because I'm going to make a motion that the
ticket stands. That's the cost of doing business. Now you know.
MR. JOHNSON: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The city's done this before.
The other one they came with him and wanted us to issue a
special license, which we refused to do.
MR. JERULLE: I wasn't on the board with the other one, so I
don't know the history. I just -- in good conscience, I just think it's the
city's responsibility, if they're issuing a purchase order or a contract to
someone, to verify that they have the correct license.
MR. JOSLIN: Maybe that's something that needs to be discussed
with the City of Naples, Mr. Ossorio. Maybe we should have a -- put
that on the agenda for next month to have a meeting with them, maybe
just to update them on the reasons of why we require licenses for
contractors.
MR. OSSORIO: Well, I'll wait to -- I'll respond when we finish
with this citation, so we'll keep it clean.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any other questions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need a motion.
MR. JOSLIN: I made the motion.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Motion --
MR. JOSLIN: That the citation stands.
MR. HORN: Second, Hom.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion?
Page 24
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' i, dct1er l~, 2008
MR. L YKOS: I agree with Terry, I think that the gentleman did
his due diligence in verifying the licenses he had to have, and what the
requirements were for him to operate in Collier County and to serve
the contracts that he has signed. And if the city did not do their due
diligence, I think it's the city's fault.
I strongly believe that anybody that does business here,
especially carpentry, should be licensed, insured, have Workers'
Compensation. I agree with that 100 percent. I believe that that's in
what's the public's best interest.
But I think the gentleman did his due diligence. And ifhe was
led down the wrong path by the city or by an employee of the county,
I just am not comfortable going back and giving him a fine for that.
MR. JOSLIN: This scenario he's talking about happened seven
years ago when he got his license. I think he's speaking about Paul
Balzano, if I'm not mistaken.
MR. OSSORIO: No, Paul -- you just said you saw him today;
am I correct?
MR. JOHNSON: You're talking about for the citation?
MR. OSSORIO: No, the short guy with the hairy arms. What
you said before. He's still working.
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, that was the guy I talked to seven years
ago who --
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, but he doesn't work for us.
MR. JOSLIN: He isn't working here.
MR. OSSORIO: He could be somewhere in engineering or could
be somewhere in the tax collector's office, I don't know. But he's not
in building review and permitting and doesn't work for me.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ijust -- Michael, Ijust -- the only
problem I've got on this is you gave him a license to do ramps and
then all of a sudden we said this isn't a ramp. And it was still an
engineered product.
MR. OSSORIO: Well, I go back to -- I hear what you're saying
Page 25
1611.,tt(
October 15,2008
referencing the City of Naples and Collier County and Everglades
City. We try to treat those entities the same as a homeowner.
Mr. Lykos, I'm sure that if you put a bid on a project and the
homeowner who hired XYZ Company didn't check their license, you
would be upset and you would be the first in here, say, that guy's not
got his license, shut him down and give him a ticket.
We take the same stance, is that this gentleman bid on the
project, yeah, the City of Naples is a homeowner, they're not in the
business of licensing, and we've talked to them. And we've talked to
purchasing in Collier County as well.
And it seems to be somewhat of an issue that unlicensed
contractors do get bids on county projects or City of Naples projects.
It happens. If it didn't happen we wouldn't have a job.
But we do communicate with them. I'm sure Allen Kennette will
tell you that he has several meetings with the purchasing department
and they're going to be forthcoming.
But to excuse someone -- I'm not saying this particular case --
that while the homeowner should have known that he wasn't licensed.
And unfortunately we try to take the stance that this contractor should
have known, and there was many n he's not the only one in town who
does this work. And the other people have followed suit and they've
gotten all their licensing squared away, and so therefore that, you
know, you can say that he's unlicensed and at an unfair advantage.
MR. JOHNSON: Oh, I should say, though -- well, the City of
Naples, when they do a bid package when this goes out on the public
website where anybody in the country can bid, it does list on the City
of Naples bid package saying you have to have any applicable licenses
necessary for the job. Which at the time I had an occupational license,
so I did think that's what I had what was necessary. So n
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I've got a motion on the floor,
I've got a second.
Any more discussion?
Page 26
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co'cc) \~ , ,- '11
October 15, 2008
MR. L YKOS: Well, Michael, I have to tell you, I accept your
argument.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Motion on the floor. Any more
discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How about a call for the vote.
MR. JERULLE: I'm just not comfortable with this.
You've been doing this for seven years?
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. Well, as far as unfair advantage, no
other contractor can bid on it in the county. Because in order to make
these kind of ramps, you have to be able to skateboard or bike or
rollerblade to know how they feel. Or else the county -- that's one of
the requirements we have with cities and municipalities. I mean, it
goes out to bid for anybody to, you know, look at it, but no contractors
will take this sort of thing because they don't know the certain angles,
the radiuses.
MR. GUITE': How many bids did Naples accept, or --
MR. JOHNSON: We have a -- a bid package?
MR. GUITE': How many other contractors bid on the project?
MR. JOHNSON: Out of Naples, none ever bid. I get some from
out of state. Usually there's a guy in Orlando that will bid, there's one
up in Jacksonville. And then there's a few in St. Louis, some in
California.
MR. JERULLE: I accept most of your argument. But this is a
person that's been doing this for seven years. And he's asked -- or like
we said, he did his due diligence. He's asked the county. He's working
for the city. I just -- I just don't feel comfortable.
It's not something that this gentleman started last week or last
month, he's been doing it for seven years.
MR. JOSLIN: How many ramps have you built in Collier
County?
MR. JOHNSON: We have Marco Island, we have East Naples,
Page 27
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October 15,2008
Golden Gate, Fleischman Park. And I think that's all the public ones.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you involved with the guy from
California on the skate park?
MR. JOHNSON: That was -- I don't do the cement ramps so
what I did was I subbed that out to the city. The guy I know that
would get this project done the certain specifications we wanted it.
Because he has the crew.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And for those of you that
weren't on the board, he was pretty much world famous. He had parks
all over the country that he had built. That is a state-of-the-art facility.
MR. GUITE': Did you build the original ramps there at
Fleischman?
MR. JOHNSON: The very original unit back in '97 was an outfit
out of New Jersey. And at the time they had purchased one ramp and
the specifications were off. But somehow the city cleared it anyway.
And I eventually over time ended up taking parts of it and
changing it around and renovating it, basically.
MR. JOSLIN: Did I just hear you say that you contracted the
concrete park, though, when it was done?
MR. JOHNSON: No, I set the city up with the vendor.
MR. JOSLIN: With the vendor.
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, so -- yeah, I wasn't part of it him at the
time.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let's bring this thing to a close.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, just before you get to the -- can
we have Allen Kennette? I think the board has some questions about
how many contractors bid on the job. And -- if you want to hear that.
That was one of the questions from one of the board members. Before
you make the vote. He can n
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
MR. KENNETTE: And it's Allen Kennette, License and
Page 28
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October 15, 2008
Compliance Officer. I got it right this time.
The reason we went out for this to begin with was we looked at
what he had for a license. He has wood products, manufacturing. No
installation on it. So he can't do installing on the site. He can build
them at his ware factory or wherever he wants to build the ramps and
drop them off. That's what his license is for, for the building tax.
He's out there taking all these products apart and rebuilding them
right there on-site. He's doing a big project.
There were seven bidders on the job. Some were way out of
whack. He bid -- the other bid company was American Ramp
Company, which I included in the packet, which was $147,000 to do
that job.
Ramp Doctors' bid was 33,000.
The City of Naples looked at his business tax that he does ramps,
he had Workers' Compo insurance that he submitted to them for his
employees. They figured he was licensed due to the fact that he had
the wood products thing for ramps and he advertises Ramp Doctors,
Incorporated. They've used him before.
Now, I don't know ifhe's ever assembled things on-site, but he's
not supposed to be assembling there on the site. This is the first time
we caught him at the park doing it. That's why we shut him down and
made him get a carpentry license, due to the fact that he's building a
big, huge skate thing that I included in the packet.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I saw that.
MR. KENNETTE: Yeah, you'll see it in there.
It's pretty intense that he's building there. It's not just a couple
little ramps that they're using to jump over.
MR. GUITE': So he can build the components at his warehouse
and then drop them off?
MR. KENNETTE: Right, he's n
MR. GUITE': I don't see the difference.
MR. KENNETTE: These are manufac --
Page 29
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October 15, 2008
MR. GUITE': I don't see the difference at all.
MR. KENNETTE: The difference is that he's building them
there and he has to bring them on-site. Now, they have to be all
attached. Now, I don't know how they're being attached, engineering
attached altogether. But he's not doing that. He's building them there
on the site.
MR. OSSORIO: To respond to that, and it's like -- I'll give you
an example. I'll try to give you an example. Furniture store company
wants to build a piece of furniture and they build it on the
manufacturing -- you know, and then they ship it and it gets put on
place. That's what manufacturing he does, no installation.
This particular case is this is pre-engineered, there's
two-by-fours, there's site specific drawings, there's engineering
involved, and there's carpentry. You're ripping wood and you're
cutting, measuring on the job site, which is considered a construction
site.
It's not a piece of furniture, you're not going to Home Depot to
buy a piece of furniture and put it in your bedroom and put clothes in
it. That is a manufacture that -- with no installation that you can take
with you.
MR. NEALE: Let me just read what 489.103 says, as far as the
exemption goes. 489.103(6). These are the exemptions from
requirements for licensure.
It says, the sale or installation of any finished products, materials
or articles of merchandise that are not fabricated into and do not
become a permanent fixed part of the structure, such as awnings.
So that's specifically what 489.103 says.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Do I have a motion on the
floor?
MR. JOSLIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What was it?
MR. NEALE: To uphold the citation.
Page 30
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:Oct~be~ B, 2008
MR. JOSLIN: Motion that the citation stands.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I had a second. Okay, we had
enough discussion? Let's call for the vote, see if the motion stands.
All those in favor?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. LYKOS: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
It's a tie vote.
MR. NEALE: Tie vote. Motion fails.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Motion fails for lack ofa majority.
MR. JOSLIN: Back to the planning board.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Back to the drawing board.
MR. GUITE': I just don't see the difference between
manufacturing it off-site and bringing it in and set it in, then going
on-site and just put it together. You still need the same skills to put it
together in your warehouse as you do on-site.
MR. L YKOS: I think the difference is what Mr. Kennette said
about the occupational license that he does have, which is for
manufacturing off-site. His current license or the license that he had
did not include installation on-site, it only included manufacturing
off-site. To me that's the key different.
MR. JOSLIN: The reason why he got violated was because of
the license that he had at that time, which was the manufacturing
portion of the license. Now he's gone and taken the test and he's got
the carpentry license now, but at that time he did not have it. So this is
an infraction he did before he got the license.
Page 3 1
l&ct!bl f;[2008
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Guite', I just n I hear your argument. I'm
going to try to put it in a different spin.
We have many companies out there that have manufacturing of
tile and marble. No installation. And they're allowed to drop off there
on the job site. They're not allowed to do the installing. But they have
an occupational license to manufachlre it and to make the tile, but they
can only drop off.
So if that helps you in your deliberation, we can do it.
And we've had many tile companies -- we've issued many stop
work orders for that reason, that they said manufacturing tile and
marble. And it says no contracting. It doesn't mean you can take the
tile, drop it off and install it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale?
MR. NEALE: Mr. Zachary and I just had a little side bar here in
discussing this. Since the citation was not upheld, this is over.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Say that again?
MR. NEALE: Since the citation was not upheld -- the vote was
on whether the citation was valid. That vote failed because it was a tie
vote. Therefore, the hearing's over.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because it didn't -- it wasn't sustained.
MR. NEALE: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Makes sense.
That's legalese from the suits. So the hearing's over.
MR. NEALE: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're done.
MR. JOHNSON: Well, thanks for hearing. Does that mean that
the ticket I don't have to pay then?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, just have -- you're clear.
MR. JOHNSON: Do I have to see anybody out front or--
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. You're done. Thank you.
MR. JOHNSON: Thank you.
MR. NEALE: And this demonstrates again why we need nine
Page 32
O~O~)I} 2ti
people on the board.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, don't tell me.
We're looking for a consumer, if anybody wants to apply. They
can never have had any association with the construction company --
MR. JOSLIN: You're all done.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- unfortunately.
MR. GUITE': Is that the City of Naples consumer, or --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, does it have to be City of
Naples resident?
MR. OSSORIO: I've been communicating with Sue Filson and
the City of Naples. And the clerk's office is having a tough time. And I
made a point on my calendar to actually go down to the City of Naples
in the next week or so to find out what the story is.
And if we can't find anyone, then we're going to go ahead and
try to fill it within Collier County, not in the City of Naples.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Could we offer Ann Keller some
more money?
MR. GUITE': Double her pay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: She was great.
Next, Gordon Jenkins. I know he's here.
MR. OSSORIO: On that note, can I just ask Mr. Zachary one
question?
Mr. Zachary, does that mean he doesn't have to pay the ticket or
he does have to pay the ticket?
MR. NEALE: He does not have to pay the ticket.
MR. ZACHARY: The motion was to uphold the ticket. That
motion failed.
MR. OSSORIO: Okay.
MR. GUITE': If it was the other way around, then he'd have to
pay.
MR. LYKOS: Right.
MR. OSSORIO: Got it.
Page 33
O~t~bIr f!~,~
MR. NEALE: If the motion had passed, he would have to pay
the ticket.
MR. GUITE': He was lucky on that one then.
MR. JOSLIN: That's a fact.
MR. ZACHARY: He came at the right time.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Jenkins, if you would, state your
name and I'll have you sworn in.
MR. JENKINS: Gordon Jenkins, from Gordon Luxury Homes
and Interiors, Inc.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to step back and not handle
this case. Mr. Jenkins is a customer of mine. Just so there's no question
about impropriety.
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Jenkins, would you please state the reasons
why you're here today.
MR. JENKINS: I would like to get Advanced Contracting
established as a commercial contracting company and work off of the
license that's currently in place for Gordon Luxury Homes and
Interiors.
MR. JOSLIN: How long have you been a licensed contractor
here in Collier County?
MR. JENKINS: Since June of '05.
MR. JOSLIN: And you're currently a home builder, correct?
Residential home builder?
MR. JENKINS: Residential, exactly.
MR. JOSLIN: On the front of the packet, Mr. Ossorio, I see a
notation that says I need a credit report for Gordon Luxury Homes and
Interiors, Inc. Has that been received yet? It's right underneath his
driver's license.
MR. JENKINS: That's actually my handwriting. That got sent to
the credit agency to supply us with --
MR. JOSLIN: That was your handwriting?
Page 34
1611Jt-f
October 15,2008
MR. JENKINS: Yeah.
MR. JOSLIN: Oh, okay, I'm sorry.
MR. JENKINS : Yeah, that was just -- sorry about that.
MR. OSSORIO: If you look at the packet, it's in there under
Merit Credit, Incorporated anyway.
MR. NEALE: And he's got a 765 FICA.
MR. JOSLIN: Members of the board have any questions?
MR. JERULLE: Are you licensed by the state?
MR. JENKINS: I have a registered builder's license, yes.
MR. JERULLE: Is that license number included in here? Is the
license included in this packet?
MR. NEALE: Yeah, it's the last page.
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Ossorio, has there been any derogatory
remarks in this company?
MR. OSSORIO: Of Mr. Jenkins, no.
MR. JERULLE: So you're a luxury home builder and you want
to go into the commercial. Why?
MR. JENKINS: At least have the oppommity.
MR. JERULLE: What commercial experience do you have?
MR. JENKINS: In Maryland I did some commercial projects
there and was prime contractor for Bolling Air Force Base and some
other commercial projects.
Here I've done one storage building for Crescent Beach down on
Marco Island. Very small.
MR. OSSORIO: Now, the term -- just to give you clarification,
he says he remains a residential builder. But you're not a residential
builder, you're a building contractor; am I correct?
MR. JENKINS: Yes.
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, so --
MR. JENKINS: But I basically use Gordon Luxury Homes as
the name to do residential. And I'd like to separate the two from
residential and conunercial, and that's why I'd like to have Advanced
Page 35
1611tN
October 15, 2008
Contracting.
MR. OSSORIO: So you do have experience in commercial, it's
just that n
MR. JENKINS: Yes.
MR. OSSORIO: -- you just want to separate one -- the primary
does -- the building license does commercial, one does residential.
MR. JENKINS: Exactly.
MR. JERULLE: And you're going to be limited on what you do
on the commercial side then from your license?
MR. JENKINS: The limitations that are under the guidelines that
I'm under right now, three-story building and under.
MR. JERULLE: And under.
MR. JENKINS: Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to go out and build,
you know, a high-rise.
MR. JOSLIN: I see nothing derogatory on the credit report,
nothing derogatory on anything of his.
Is there a motion?
MR. L YKOS: Most to approve, Lykos.
MR. GUITE': Second, Guite'.
MR. JOSLIN: Got a motion and a second.
Any discussion?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've worked for him for several years.
He's a good customer. Pays well.
MR. JOSLIN: No further discussion, I'll call for the vote.
All those in favor of approving?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
MR. LYKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
Page 36
16 14~~ 15,2008
MR. JOSLIN: Any opposed?
(No response.)
MR. JOSLIN: Motion carries. Good luck.
MR. JENKINS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Jenkins, your files are in here so
don't go to Maggie today. But tomorrow you can and get it taken care
of.
MR. JENKINS: Okay. Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We wish you well.
Steven -- no, I'm sorry, James L. DeMarco, are you here? Good
morning, sir. Ifyou'lln you know the procedure by now, don't you?
MR. DeMARCO: Yeah.
MR. DeMARCO: James DeMarco.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Same thing, second entity. Just give
us the whyfors.
MR. DeMARCO: Essentially just to -- primarily to make a
living. I'll be working for City Excavating, and one of the principals
intends to take his general's license after the first of the year and this
would be somewhat of a stop gap until he does accomplish that. But it
would enable them to get started.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got any control over City
Excavating?
MR. DeMARCO: Ownership, you mean?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Or--
MR. DeMARCO: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- just control that you won't pull
pel111its if there's problems.
MR. DeMARCO: Correct.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You understand that your license is on
the line?
MR. DeMARCO: Yes, I do.
Page 37
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October 15,2008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: For bills and everything else.
MR. DeMARCO: Yes, I understand that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Just be careful. We've seen
guys get themselves in trouble.
MR. DeMARCO: No, I understand that. And the people that I'm
dealing with I know fairly well. I know things change, but I'm
comfortable with that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. L YKOS: Mr. DeMarco, how will you be compensated by
the second entity?
MR. DeMARCO: Weekly wage.
MR. L YKOS: I'm sorry?
MR. DeMARCO: Weekly wage.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You answered that exactly how you're
supposed to answer it.
MR. JOSLIN: Somebody must have cultured you.
MR. DeMARCO: No, that's not what it is.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, that's good. You know what we
were looking for.
MR. DeMARCO: I believe so.
MR. JERULLE: And you said you had no ownership?
MR. DeMARCO: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which that is acceptable. And we
used to have a financial officer and we've done away with that.
MR. NEALE: The state still has one. The county has decided not
to do one.
MR. OSSORIO: See on Page 10, Resolution of Authorization.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where do you see page numbers?
MR. OSSORIO: Bottom right-hand side, and it says one-zero on
it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, they started printing. Mine didn't
print. There we go.
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16 dcJ~5, 2008
MR. OSSORIO: Bottom right.
MR. JOSLIN: The only thing I'm looking at on the credit report
is -- I'm trying to make sense of this credit report. But I see something
in here that says '94 you had something that was included in a
bankruptcy?
MR. DeMARCO: I'm sorry?
MR. JOSLIN: If! got the right report here. In one of'94,
Citibank, a credit card. It says a payment of $6,900 that was included
in a bankruptcy. Can you kind of --
MR. DeMARCO: That was in 2000.
MR. JOSLIN: It was saying in one of'94.
MR. GUITE': Is that what you're looking for?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know, it's way past the 10-year
limit, though.
MR. JOSLIN: I don't see the bankruptcy itself.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You can't report 'em after seven years.
We're just thumbing through papers right now.
You ever had any complaints against you?
MR. DeMARCO: I'm sorry?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you ever had any complaints
against you?
MR. DeMARCO: Legal, you mean?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, no, no, work wise.
MR. DeMARCO: Oh, no.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: With the county.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hu-uh.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
Are you Belaire excavating now?
MR. DeMARCO: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who is that?
MR. DeMARCO: That was a former employee of mine. They're
a national company out of Minnesota.
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October 15,2008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then why are we getting that? Who is
this?
MR. JOSLIN: James L. DeMarco.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: James DeMarco, yeah.
MR. JOSLIN: It's the right person, right?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you have a federal tax lien in
2005'1
MR. DeMARCO: Yes. It's been satisfied through a payment
agreement.
And the amount shown on there is not correct, but I can't -- I
don't have anything that shows the dollar amount other than that.
That's why I didn't --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 'Cause what's showing's a big dollar
amount.
MR. DeMARCO: No, I understand that.
But it's -- there's also documentation in there that tells you it's
been satisfied through payment agreement.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do we have that?
MR. DeMARCO: It's in there.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, installment agreement.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. DeMarco, just to let you know that some of
these packages you put together are missing some things, that's why
we're having a --
MR. DeMARCO: Really?
MR. OSSORIO: Mine's fine, and I looked through Ian's, but
some of the board members are missing some items on here.
MR. DeMARCO: I'm sorry, I didn't realize that.
MR. L YKOS: I'm just trying to do some math in my head.
MR. JOSLIN: I know. It's a lot.
MR. L YKOS: $1,000 a month is going to take what, nine years
payoff.
MR. JOSLIN: Figure 10 years, round numbers.
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October 15,2008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's ifthey froze the interest and
penalties.
MR. L YKOS: Right, say plus penalties and interest.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did they freeze interest and penalty?
They didn't, did they?
MR. DeMARCO; No, but it's an offer and compromise. It's not
the dollar amount you're looking at.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you've had a good tax attorney
working with you?
MR. DeMARCO: I hope so.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, good.
MR. L YKOS: Well, what's been signed, this installment
agreement, is what I have a copy of. I don't have a copy of anything
else. I don't have a copy of an offer and compromise that's been
accepted, I don't have anything else, so this is what we're working
with.
MR. DeMARCO: That's -- okay, fine. I can produce that.
But the fact of the matter is it's satisfied by the agreement. The
payments have been made timely. My credit rating is good. There's
nothing against my license. There's no disparity marks on my license
for the past seven years that it's been enforced.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale?
MR. NEALE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give us guidelines.
MR. NEALE: Well, really since this is a qualification of a
second entity, really you'd look at it as if you were looking at
essentially a new license. But the only thing you're looking at is, you
know, the standard test for credit, which is -- would be -- and I'll read
you exactly what the statute says, what the rule says, which is:
Financial responsibility is defined -- because that seems to be the only
question of the board is not competence but financial responsibility --
is defined as: The ability to safeguard that the public will not sustain
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economic loss from the contractor's inability to pay his lawful
contractual obligations.
And that's the test that the board is reviewing is is there anything
in the documentation provided in front of you or in the testimony that
would indicate that he could not fulfill his lawful or contrachlal
obligations of the contracting business which he is seeking to qualify.
The board needs to look at what his actual liability would be
regarding the contractual obligations of the entity he's qualifying. That
is, is he the one that's having to pay the contracting bills for the entity
he's qualifying, or is that entity separate and apart from him and his
personal financial capability to pay those bills.
Because again we're looking at the -- even though he is the
qualifier from a credit point of view, you're looking at the credit of the
company he is qualifying and the credit of the company -- credit of the
company he's seeking to qualify and the credit of the company he's
currently qualifying. Credit of the company he's currently qualifying,
you're looking at to see if it's had problems as far as paying its
contractual bills. Company he's seeking to qualify, is it having trouble
paying its contractual bills or has it ever in the past.
His personal credit may be of interest, but it's not determinative.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who is, is --
MR. NEALE: The real question is, you know, even though he's
the qualifier, can City Excavating pay its bills.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And what I'm looking at is the
three partners that are there, which are Geach, Campobasso and
Schneider. I'd love to see credit reports on -- well, I can't ask for credit
reports on them, though.
MR. NEALE: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the company's brand new so it
doesn't exist. There you go again, Terry.
MR. JERULLE: You're going to keep Apollo Excavating?
MR. DeMARCO: Uh-huh.
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,
MR. JERULLE: And do business as Apollo. And at the same
time you wish to qualify City Excavating and then City will be doing
business.
MR. DeMARCO: Correct.
MR. JERULLE: Will you be bidding against each other?
MR. DeMARCO: Possibly.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's a pretty good move.
MR. DeMARCO: What's that have to do with it?
MR. JERULLE: I just asked the question. Just asked the
question.
So there are two totally separate entities, and you'd be the
qualifier for both?
MR. DeMARCO: Correct.
MR. JERULLE: And I guess that's -- Mr. Neale, that's perfectly
acceptable?
MR. NEALE: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to make a motion to
approve. But the license holder will be responsible for having credit
reports sent to Contractor Licensing every three months for the next
12 months, at which time that requirement will stop.
Basically you'll be under 12-month probation as we watch your
credit.
MR. DeMARCO: I'll give you credit reports on them right now.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, I'm making a motion. You'll be
required to do it every three months if that -- for four times, if that
passes.
MR. JOSLIN: Is there a credit report in here for City now?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No.
MR. JOSLIN: No.
Would that be part of it too, to have him furnish a copy of a
credit report on City, or is that not available?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: City should not even exist. Or it's a
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brand new start-up company.
MR. JOSLIN: I'm sorry, you're correct. That's right.
MR. DeMARCO: Correct.
MR. JOSLIN: I'll second that motion.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You all see what I'm doing?
MR. L YKOS: Yeah, but how about if we do both companies?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I'll amend that to both
companies, Apollo -- and really all I want is the companies, Apollo
and City, that we'll monitor for the next 12 months. And ifthere's no
problem, then we'll stop monitoring.
MR. DeMARCO: That's fine.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're good with that?
MR. DeMARCO: Yeah. Like I mentioned, this is a stop gap
situation. Because hopefhlly by the first quarter of the year we'll be
hanging -- one of the owners will be hanging his general contractor's
license at City. So it could all be a foregone conclusion.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Sounds good.
Any other discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. All those in favor?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. LYKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
MR. GUITE': Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You opposed?
Okay, one opposed, seven in favor.
You got it. You can do it tomorrow. You heard me say that your
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October 15, 2008
files are in here.
MR. DeMARCO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wish you well.
Steven Speak, come forward, please. State your name then I'll
have you sworn in.
MR. SPEAK: Steven Speak.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, we're going to review you,
because we -- you got turned down, well, just a few weeks ago, right?
MR. SPEAK: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, go ahead.
MR. SPEAK: Credit report. It's -- the bankruptcy you see on
there was never followed through with. I didn't gain anything from
that. We just decided at the last minute to not file. But I don't know
how to get that cleared off my credit report.
And most of the things that are still on there or newly put on are
just reoccurring things from the past.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How old's your daughter?
MR. SPEAK: Seven.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Our prayers go out to her.
MR. SPEAK: Thank you very much. She does well with it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good.
So basically you haven't had any trouble until you went through
the medical with your daughter?
MR. SPEAK: I wouldn't say that. We had -- I lost a good job,
and I lost a house and a car, some things like that that went on there.
And it kind of put me in some financial problems.
But that's many years ago. And we're trying -- we've been good
for the past few years.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where do you hold licenses now?
MR. SPEAK: I don't.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
Page 45
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October 15,2008
MR. SPEAK: I do work for Chad Bowman, LLC. He has me on
his business, but that's under his license.
This is the first company I've -- or anything I've tried to get a
license for.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you be working for one of the
flooring companies in town that sub out --
MR. SPEAK: Yeah, we'll try to get business through Hadinger
Flooring, probably, and, you know, just word of mouth, any way I can
-- anything I can get.
MR. JERULLE: You do not have a license now?
MR. SPEAK: I do not.
MR. JERULLE: And who do you work for?
MR. SPEAK: I've worked for Chad Bowman, LLC and Rob
Roy, Inc.
MR. JERULLE: But not working for them currently?
MR. SPEAK: Not -- no, just off and on, as they need help.
They're small companies.
MR. OSSORIO: I've called their -- obviously you can look at the
paperwork. And I've talked to some of the experienced letters (sic) and
I've talked to them and they say he does good work.
MR. JOSLIN: How long have you been doing wood flooring?
MR. SPEAK: Since, I want to say, mid '05. Started with Chad
Bowman, just stepping in, helping, learning the ropes.
MR. JOSLIN: And how old are you?
MR. SPEAK: I'm 29.
MR. JOSLIN: Twenty-nine.
MR. SPEAK: Yes, sir.
MR. L YKOS: I've got a question here, Michael.
If I'm reading this right, and I might not be, on the application,
name of fil111, Accent Wood Flooring, LLC. And then when you get to
number nine it shows Chad Bowman as an officer or managing
member of the firm. It's in the very beginning of the packet.
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MR. NEALE: Yeah. Strange.
MR. L YKOS: Does that mean that Mr. Bowman's going to be an
officer of Accent Wood Flooring?
MR. SPEAK: No.
MR. NEALE: I think it's just --
MR. SPEAK: If I put that on there, it's a mistake.
MR. NEALE: I think it's a mistake by him.
MR. SPEAK: Yeah, absolutely.
It would just be me by myself. If I needed help -- I'm not saying
that -- he would not be working for me. I may sub out some work to
him. I don't really know how that works. I need to find out the -- how
to do that.
MR. L YKOS: But the way this application is presented, it's
incorrect.
MR. NEALE: Yeah. Because the way the application's written,
Chad Bowman is the only member and owner of Accent Wood
Flooring.
MR. SPEAK: No. See, that should be me. I must have
misunderstood that.
MR. GUITE'; Is there a trades test for wood flooring?
MR. OSSORIO: No, it's just a business procedure test.
MR. NEALE: He got 78 on the test.
MR. SPEAK: That's partially because I had the wrong book. It's
not my -- I mean, it's my ignorance not to buy the new book. But I still
passed, so --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does your wife work?
MR. SPEAK: She does. She works at Chanel over at Dillard's in
the mall, and also a nightclub bartending.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON; And you're working right now with
these other guys, right?
MR. SPEAK: Partially, yes. I work at Bay Forest. It's a
community off of Vanderbilt Beach Road. My father is over the
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grounds maintenance out there, and I do just some oddball jobs for
him. Just anything I can to stay busy, hoping that this would take off
quickly so I can go off on my own.
MR. GUITE': The bankruptcy has been discharged, so --
MR. NEALE: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No.
MR. GUITE': Pardon?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, it hasn't.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, it has.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, it has been discharged. Okay.
MR. SPEAK: We never even showed up. We never even went to
the hearing.
MR. JOSLIN: They were going to file banlmlptcy. Apparently
you decided not to?
MR. SPEAK: Decided not to. Heard -- was talking to some
people, they said that you may not be able to hold certain positions in
jobs, and I didn't want to hinder any openings for myselflater on in
life so--
,
MR. JOSLIN: I think under the circumstances with the medical
things he's gone through and it seems to me like he's a pretty
upstanding young man to a degree, I make the motion that we approve
it with the same criteria as we did the last one, with the credit reports
every three months for a year, monitor you and see how you do.
MR. SPEAK: Absolutely.
MR. JOSLIN: I assume you're going to try to payoff some of
these debts that you have.
MR. SPEAK: That's exactly why I want to start my own
business, so I can do that.
MR. JOSLIN: With the way the economy is today, I have to
believe you.
MR. SPEAK: Yes, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: So I make a motion to approve under those
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October 15, 2008
pretences.
MR. GUITE': I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. LYKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got unanimous. One hiccup and
it's over.
MR. SPEAK: Not a problem.
MR. JOSLIN: You understand what you have to do now, a--
MR. SPEAK: Yes, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: -- credit report every three months. Take it to Mr.
Ossorio's office and show you're doing something.
MR. SPEAK: Very good.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Make the best of it.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Speak, before you leave, I just want to
make sure that before you get your license, come see me in the
mornmg --
MR. SPEAK: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: n and we'll go over some kind of a plan, we'll
put you on the outlook so I don't have to keep calling you every three
months --
MR. SPEAK: Sure.
Page 49
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October 15,2008
MR. OSSORIO: -- you can just stop in.
MR. SPEAK: Absolutely. Is that tomorrow morning?
MR. OSSORIO: Tomorrow morning's fine.
MR. SPEAK: Okay. Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's going to go celebrate.
Mr. Snyder?
MR. SNYDER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How did you end up being the last
one?
MR. SNYDER: I came in late with my paperwork.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. State your full name and I'll
have you sworn in.
MR. SNYDER: Ross Snyder.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Lay it out.
MR. SNYDER: I guess where this started was I've been a
resident of Naples --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you get a little closer to the mic?
MR. SNYDER: Yeah, sure.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You are on television, if you didn't
lmow.
MR. SNYDER: Ilmow.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Snyder, I'll go ahead and give them a lead
and then you can talk to them.
One of the things that Mr. Snyder's going for, he's going for
actually a building registered licensed through our office and register
with Tallahassee.
And one of the things we actually look at, especially for
building, we actually look at their experience. And unfortunately on
the face of his application, you'll read his experience letters, it really
doesn't depict what -- obviously he's probably -- he's a cabinet
installer, he can do crown molding, he can do millwork and he can
Page 50
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October 15, 2008
even put cabinets in.
But it really didn't depict the job, the license that he was going to
do. And unfortunately if! don't have that information, I'm not able to
make an assumption that he's qualified to be building license. And
obviously you lmow that to be a building license or contractor you
have to show experience. And also you have to lmow about permits
and residential homes and commercial buildings up to three stories.
So with that I asked Mr. Snyder to come talk to you, and maybe
Mr. Snyder can talk to you about his dealings about being a builder or
working in the building field.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So what are we looking at, credit or
experience or what?
MR. OSSORIO: No, you're going to be looking at his
experience. And you can read some -- you have Dakota Homebuilders
and then you have Florida Coast --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, he survived Jack Antaramian.
He's worked for Russell Budd, who's one of the best in the world. Don
Garrett. I mean, this is a who's who.
MR. OSSORIO: Now what page are you -- I'm only looking --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Front cover.
MR. OSSORIO: Okay. Well, that's the cover that he's going to
talk to you about. You have to achlally look in the application stuff
what he submitted.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: So you look on -- I can only go what he
submitted on the day of his application. And you'll read through his
application, the affidavits, and you'll see two of them. One of them is
Dakota Homes and one is I believe Florida Coast Construction,
Incorporated, and Smith and DeShields.
And they all basically say that he's a great person for --
obviously he's a good person and obviously that he can do trim work.
Nothing in his application says that he's a building -- he worked
Page 51
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October 15, 2008
for a building contractor or did -- or under the supervision of a
building contractor or general contractor to be able to be issued a
building license.
Now, what we see today, the first two pages is his response. And
I asked him to write a response. And that's why he says, dear board
members.
And he can -- maybe that's why he's going to elaborate what he
did in the field. And if you take that as testimony, and then if you
want to go ahead and grant him a building license, that's the pleasure
of the licensing board.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why don't you take it from there and
kind of feed off this front page, because it's all names we recognize.
The only fallacy (sic) I see is you don't stay one place very long.
MR. SNYDER: Well, I don't lmow -- I can't really give you
anything on that. I was -- those are '85 I was young, very young. I'm
39 now, so I started obviously in '85, where you can see what we did
there.
I moved around a lot, which is the reason for not staying. We
stayed in Boston for a couple years. That's where I met with Jack
Antaramian.
Of course back in Florida we've got Terraco, which is a big
company. I worked for them for quite a few years. We did a lot of
subcontracting for D. Garrett. Got to be real friendly with Don and all
the boys that nm the show, Buddy and such. So I did work for them
for a while as -- I got n well, as kind of an in-house carpenter for
them, metal framer. And all those guys say I was the best framer in
town. I mean, I'm very meticulous. Everything is -- if it's not right, I
don't leave it, that type of thing. So they wanted me to join the band,
so we did that for a year, and then it kind of worked its way up to
being a superintendent for D. Garrett.
Of course before D. Garrett was Russell Budd, Rex Budd with
Wall Systems. And you got to take for -- I mean, I was young at that
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October 15, 2008
point, so I was -- they're not going to give me a big lead position as a
25, 22-year-old guy. I was still one of their head framers,
orchestrators, layout people. I have a lot of experience with tons of
commercial work.
The reason I have those letters from the three companies, Smith
and DeShields, Dakota Homes and Florida Coast was since I had
passed the test -- you know, I'm assuming that I've got the test passed.
You know, I went to the -- basically the most convenient places for
me to get these letters so I could get this moved along a little bit
quicker. And nahlrally those three entities were the most easily
accessible to have it done right away.
I could go to D. Garrett, I could go to -- I can't go to Wall
Systems, obviously, to get any kind of letters. I could go to Terraco. I
could go to all those people that I listed and get letters of experience to
kind of show you where I'm at at this point.
But at this point in my life -- I'd say the reason this started, I just
moved to Marco last year in '07. It states that in my letter. Apparently
Marco will not let me work with this cabinet install license on the
Island without -- under general contractor.
Like I said, I went down and registered my license -- my
business, and they wouldn't do it. She said that my license is basically
invalid on Marco Island. I was shocked to hear that.
So I've been working for, you lmow, four, five years with this
cabinet license with no -- with no problems. I've been renewing it year
after year. As soon as I moved down there, they kind of pulled the mg
out from under me. So this is my reasoning.
MR. JOSLIN: What kind of work are you trying to do with that
license?
MR. SNYDER; Whatever it specifies. Cabinetry, I do kitchens,
remodel cabinets, crown molding, trim, doors, paint. You know, I do
things that I can do. Until I went down to register.
MR. OSSORIO: Well, you don't achlally register. You're
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October 15, 2008
misinterpreting.
Board members, we have three jurisdictions here for building
review and permitting. We have Bob Dunn, we have Paul Bollenback
and we have Bob Mahar in the -- and all three of those individuals
have different opinions about conunercial buildings.
And you're absolutely right, if you're a cabinetmaker or a cabinet
installer, you can install cabinets in single-family homes and
commercial buildings and in high-rises.
Where the catch with the City of Marco has an issue is that they
want a building permit, anything in a high-rise. Because when you
take the cabinets off, you're taking the fire-rated walls off or fire --
you know, the drywall off, and they want an inspection. And you have
-- and they consider that struchlral.
So yes, the general contractor gets the contract, he hires the
cabinet installer, and the cabinet installer does the work. And that's
how it's done.
So he doesn't have to register with Marco Island. He has a
Collier County, City of Naples and Marco Island cabinet license.
Unforhmately if you want to put cabinets in high-rises, you have to be
a general contractor because it's considered stmchlral and they want to
-- you have to get some engineering and some drawings and go
through fire.
So yeah, Marco Island's a little more strict than the City of
Naples. And maybe Bob Dunn is not as strict as Bob Mahar, but we
all have to work together, and unfortunately that's the way it is in
Marco Island.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, let me -- I'm going to kind of
take control here for a minute, because we're rambling.
We can all read what you've got here and we can all read the
references you've got, but when you come before this board, you open
up everything.
What I have more of a problem with is your credit.
Page 54
16/1A4
October 15,2008
MR. SNYDER: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's just not good.
MR. SNYDER: Well, I know it's not good.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you want us to turn you loose on
Collier County residents.
MR. SNYDER: No, that's not -- I mean, most of that credit issue
is from teenage years.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Stay closer to that mic. and talk.
MR. SNYDER: I can't get much closer.
Teenage years. I was 19,20 years old when those credit issues
came about. Nahlrally I've made bad decisions.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I've got a bankruptcy three years
ago.
MR. SNYDER: That's three years ago, because I was so buried
in all that from the years prior. I couldn't deal with it, so I decided to
go ahead and with this bankruptcy, which has now been underway for
about two years, couple of years.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I got a credit score of 599 and alerts
all over this credit report. It says, serious delinquencies and public
records.
MR. SNYDER: I 1m ow that. I'm aware of all that. That's why I'm
trying to get this squared away. I mean, I've got the bankruptcy, I've
got a payment plan that I'm paying them off regularly. Actually, I'm
trying to sell some of my things to get this squared away right away.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. See, where I stand, I don't have
a problem with your experience. I would have gone for that in a
heartbeat. But I can't let this credit go.
MR. SNYDER; Well, I've got -- you can see -- I know that the
balance on my bankruptcy is a certain amount, which is really not a lot
of money that I owe them to pay it off. It doesn't show any of that in
there. It's not much over $5,000 that I owe to complete the entire
banlmlptcy, to be freed of it.
Page 55
16 , 1 A-~
October 15, 2008
And I've got -- it's kind of not very -- I've got a guy right
tomorrow he's going to buy my boat which is going to wash this out.
I'm selling it, he's coming to pick it up, I'm going to send it right to
him and I'll be cleared.
So the banlmlptcy will be satisfied. Obviously it won't be
cleared from my account for a few more years, but I should be -- you
lmow, I should be wide open by the end ofthe month, I'm hoping.
MR. L YKOS: Mr. Snyder, the concern that I have is when you
become a contractor that has the ability to hire subcontractors, you
take on a tremendous financial responsibility. And when you have
outstanding debts, and there's even a comment in your credit report
about some of the debts are -- delinquencies are too recent to even
make a judgment on.
The concern is that when you have the stress of debt and you
now are given the opporhmity to manage finances for other
companies, which is what happens when you get this kind of a license,
that you'd be put in a position where you have to make bad financial
decisions, and that's when you affect other businesses and you affect
individual homeowners. And there's a concern in granting you that
ability, because it could make your life more difficult instead of
making it better.
MR. SNYDER: Well, that's n this is why I'm here. I mean, this
is why I'm trying to overcome all of that.
I mean, if you could see in the credit report the Ford, for
instance, the Ford has been satisfied. That was seven, $8,000 debt. It's
recently been paid off two months ago. It's completely paid off. So
that was a huge part of that monies owed.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But see, we don't have any
documentation on that.
MR. SNYDER: You don't have that on the --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you can't overcome this credit in
this room.
Page 56
'1
~1\Y
October 15, 2008
MR. SNYDER: I lmow that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You need to go do some work and
come back.
MR. JERULLE: I have a question also.
In addition to the concerns that Mr. Dickson and Mr. Lykos has,
Mr. Ossorio, the license that he's requesting, that would allow him to
build a building up to three stories?
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct.
MR. JERULLE: I don't see that experience here.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's tme.
MR. JERULLE: I see with the experience with the drywall and
the cabinets and finish work, which is very good experience, don't get
me wrong, but to build a -- to give him a license to actually build a
building up to three stories, I just don't see that experience.
Maybe you have it, I don't know. I'm just saying in the packet
that I have in front of me, I don't see that experience.
MR. SNYDER; I can tell you that I've never built one. I don't
have the -- I can't tell you that -- you can't have experience unless you
actually do it, as far as I'm concerned. Or you take the classes. It takes
schooling to do this.
The reasoning for this application is not for me to build a three
story building. The reasoning behind it is for me to pull permits and
work on Marco Island like just like I have been doing. I don't plan on
changing my criteria of work. It's going to be remodeling, kitchens,
crown molding. That's my field. That's where I'm at.
I have no intention of building a house, let alone a three-story
building.
MR. JERULLE: Yeah, but we have no control of that after we
issue you a permit.
MR. SNYDER: I understand that.
MR. JERULLE: Excuse me, a license.
MR. SNYDER: I mean, where do I go? I mean, I've taken the
Page 57
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October 15, 2008
test, I've passed the county test. I've passed it, which shows some
experience of lmow ledge of passing the test.
I've got 20 books that I paid $1,000, I've studied them through
and through. I mean, to me that's schooling. I mean, that's months of
shldying to pass the test.
I mean, like I said, I don't want to build a building, I just want to
be able to work.
MR. JERULLE: Like I said, the information that's been
presented to me currently does not give me any confidence to give you
a license to build a building up to three stories. And like I said, you
may have it, but I just don't see that here.
MR. SNYDER: I mean, is --
MR. JERULLE: In addition to the credit concerns.
MR. SNYDER: Is there any other -- is there a license that would
require me to pull permits other than this registered building
contractor? I mean, I just need to be able to continue working on
Marco Island, period. I mean --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio?
MR. SNYDER: -- they won't let me pull pel111its, they won't let
me work.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, okay.
Mr. Ossorio?
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Snyder's got to realize that he keeps
mentioning remodeling cabinets or kitchens. That's not what his
license is for.
Your license is a cabinet installer. That means you take cabinets
out, you put them in. You don't rearrange the plumbing, you don't
coordinate with the homeowner, you don't hire the electrician, you
don't remodel the kitchen. The only thing you're allowed to do is put
base boards in, trim and put cabinets in, box of cabinets in. Go to
Home Depot, pick them up and put them in. That's basically what that
IS.
Page 58
1 6 I 1 -Atf
October 15, 2008
And unfortunately the City of Marco, like I said before, is that
they require a building permit because they want to do an inspection
because of the fire wall. Well, that's not what a cabinetmaker does.
What we can do, and I'll go ahead and I'll try to move this along,
is that I will have a meeting with Mr. Snyder and we'll go over it.
And ifhe gets his credit in order in the next couple of months,
what I can do is we can come back to the board and we can maybe
come to an agreement that maybe we can restrict his license, which we
do have the -- I have the ability to do, to restrict it to only remodeling,
no -- you lmow, whatever you feel comfortable with.
MR. L YKOS: Be careful.
MR. OSSORIO: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: Yeah, because you'd still be n the electrical,
plumbing and whatever to remodel a kitchen or whatever.
MR. OSSORIO: You're absolutely right.
MR. JOSLIN: And I don't see any credentials. Like Mr. Jerulle
said, I don't see any credentials that says he's qualified to do that.
MR. OSSORIO: No, but he does have a list here of people that
we all know and respect. So maybe it's better for him to go back and
get the achlal affidavits notarized so that we can actually take that and
put it in the application.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And then he's got a second hurdle.
This credit report will not get by me. I'm only one person on the
board, but the credit is not acceptable. I would vote it down right now
the way the credit is.
MR. JOSLIN: He did express, though, that he thought maybe if
it's a $5,000 amount that's due now to pay it off, that maybe ifhe
comes back in another month or two months or whatever and gets the
credentials and he gets this credit paid off, that maybe we would look
at it with a different point of view.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: True. But you've got two things
you've got to work on.
Page 59
1 6 O~to\l\1, 2008
MR. SNYDER: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay? I need to handle this as it
stands here today, since it came before the board, so I need a motion.
MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion to deny.
MR. L YKOS: Second, Lykos.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. L YKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go clean it up. Meet with Mr. Ossorio
and try again.
MR. SNYDER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir.
MR. OSSORIO: And Mr. Snyder, just stop by tomorrow
moming and then we'll go over it and then we'll get you back in front
of the board.
MR. SNYDER: Thanks a lot. Thanks for your time.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Dunn, would you like to address
the board for any reason? Since we have the head cheese present. I
won't even make you be sworn in.
MR. JOSLIN: And we're ready for you now.
MR. DUNN: For the record, Bob Dunn, building director of
Collier County Building Department.
Page 60
,-.. 1 ^'i
" ',J
8 '-.:JP
October 15, 2008
I just wanted to stop in and say hi, and some new members, and
introduce myself to the new members and thank you for all the hard
work. Our guys do a great job, and they had the yearly report ready
for you. If you have any questions, that's why I'm here.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm glad that your acting was made
permanent.
MR. DUNN: Yes, thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're all thrilled to have you here.
MR. DUNN: Thank you.
MR. OSSORIO: I do have one question, since Bob's up on the
stand. I know that Bob has talked to DSAC, which is the -- I guess it's
a community development advisory board committee, and they -- and
the CBIA with Bill Varian has requested Bob and myselfto sit down
and see if it's in the budget for this year or next year to maybe look at
getting another position filled out there in the field. Because I lmow
that there was some issues concerning unlicensed activity, Workers
Compo issues.
And so I lmow that Bob put that on my task and I know he put
that on his calendar to review, so hopefully we have some good news.
MR. L YKOS: Good. I was going to inquire about that, since I
had both of you in the same room.
MR. DUNN: I knew you were.
MR. L YKOS: Yeah. We have -- you know, we get a lot -- we're
in the process of interviewing board candidates for CBIA for next
year, and there were a lot of complaints about a lot of unlicensed
activity.
And I try to defend what we do up here, but, you know,
perception's reality. And a lot of people think that we're not doing
enough. There's a lot going on that -- and in times like these, if the
legitimate people don't think there's enough going on, then that means
there's no fear for the people that are doing things illegally. And we
need to make sure that people are afraid to operate illegally, or without
Page 61
" jb~~15,2008
Workmen's Compensation, without licenses. We need to make sure
that we do that. We need to protect the people who are doing it right.
MR. DUNN: You know that's my priority. And we've met
before. I think the last time I stopped in, we talked about contractor
licensing and staffing.
It's on our agenda now. We're looking at it with our
administrator, and we're going to make a recommendation back to
DSAC committee.
MR. L YKOS: Great.
MR. DUNN: Anything else?
(No response.)
MR. DUNN: It was nice seeing you guys again.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good to see you always. Thanks for
commg m.
MR. L YKOS: Thanks, Bob.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have anything? Mr.
Neale, Mr. Zachary?
MR. NEALE: No.
MR. ZACHARY: Nothing.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio?
MR. OSSORIO: I have one housekeeping matter.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir.
MR. OSSORIO: As you see on the agenda, it says next meeting
would be November 19th, 2008. I would like to see us not have a
meeting in November, due to Thanksgiving, and have one in
December. That's up to the board's pleasure.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't have a problem with that.
MR. L YKOS: What about the other way around?
MR. JOSLIN: So we're going to sacrifice Thanksgiving for
Christmas?
MR. OSSORIO: Well, the only reason why I think we should
have it in December is that due to the fact that I know that you made a
Page 62
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~1 ";"') .. f\ '1
O-~t~ber 5, 2008
policy and a procedure referencing choosing a new chairman in
December. So that stuck out that okay, we won't have one in
November, but we'll have one in December.
And December, it's close to Christmas, but it's not that close. I
don't think it's -- it's in between.
MR. L YKOS: What's the date in December; do we know?
MR. OSSORIO: What's the date in December for the meeting?
I'll let Pat Neale lmow that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you know how to work your
telephone, you can go to your calendar.
MR. OSSORIO: What's the date for December meeting?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Here comes the telephone wiz.
MR. L YKOS: 17th?
MR. JERULLE: 17th.
MR. NEALE: That should be it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's cool. That's two weeks before.
MR. OSSORIO: That's what my plan was, to have a meeting in
December and elect a new chairman for the upcoming '09.
MR. NEALE: Yes, 17th.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If --let's just leave it if business
allows or activity allows it, we can skip November, we'll do it.
MR. ZACHARY: Question: Will the meeting be here or--
MR. NEALE: We've got to be here for the rest of the year.
MR. OSSORIO: We have the meeting here for the next two
months. So if we don't have one in November, it's going to be here at
10:30 in December.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 10:30, 10:30, 10:30.
MR. OSSORIO: Not 9:00.
MR. L YKOS: Before we go, I would be remiss if! didn't also
say that during our interviews with board members of CBIA, to a
person they've talked about what a great job that Mr. Dunn has done
and how well things are going down here.
Page 63
octolr~ 5~ 2!Ot4
MR. DUNN: Thank you very much.
MR. L YKOS: Yes, sir, appreciate it very much.
MR. DUNN: I have a great staff.
MR. L YKOS: Yes, you do.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I have to tell you this. You
remember New Code Windows and Doors? They didn't miss a beat.
We didn't shut them down for one day.
MR. NEALE: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because they had a second qualifier.
MR. NEALE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And he was moved up to primary
qualifier the very next day.
MR. GUITE': That's what I figured. Next job I went on, they
were on that job.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I don't lmow if! should go any
further on that, should I, Mr. Ossorio?
MR. OSSORIO: No, that's good enough.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I'll keep that one other bit to
myself.
But, yeah, it didn't stop them. But that is ihe beauty of a second
qualifier if something happens. It's supposed to be that if you die or
get sick that you can continue the company. But he was prepared and
ready to go. So hopefully he learned a lesson, I don't know. We never
saw the owner.
Do I hear a motion to adjourn?
MR. L YKOS: So moved, Lykos.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
Page 64
16 ~c~Jr~t 2008
MR. LYKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
*****
There being no further business for the good of the County, the
meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 12:25 p.m.
"
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR
L1C~.
LES DICKSON, Chairman
These minutes approved by the Board on
as presented or as corrected
Transcript prepared on behalf of Gregory Reporting Service, Inc., by
Cherie' R. Nottingham.
Page 65
eRA GoverniDl! Board
Commissiont:r
Donna Fiala
Chair
Commissioner
Tom rknning
Commissioner
James N. Coletta
Commissioner
Fred W, Coyle
Commissioner
Frank Halas
State Enterorise Zone
Develovment A2'encv
Board (EZDA)
Fred N. Thomas, Jr
Chairman
Bt:mardo Barnhart
Capt. Tom Davis
Robert Halman
Ex-officio
Julio Estremt:ra
Kitcht:11 Snow
Floyd Crews
Ana Salazar
Richard Rice
Rick fleers
Eva Deyo
eRA Staff
Penny Phillippi
Executive Director
239.252.2310
Brad Muckel
Project Managt:r
239.252.5549
Christi Betancourt
Administrativt: Assistant
239.252.2313
IMMO~LEE C~
,ECEIVEDmmunity Redevelopment Agency
DEe 23 2008 j The P['1ce to ('111 Hamel
h,)."IO of County Commissioners
EZONE MEETING AGENDA
State Enterprise Zone Development Agency
December 17,2008 - 9:30 to 9:45 AM
Career and Service Center of Collier County-lmmokalee
750 South 5'" Street
lmmokalee, Florida, 34142
A.
Call to Order.
B.
Roll Call and Announcement ofOuorum.
c
Adoption of Agenda.
D.
Approval of Minutes.
Regular Meeting - November 19,2008 (Enclosure I)
E.
Communications,
F.
16'1~
/
Consent Agenda.
I. Enterprise Zone Activities Monthly Report (Enclosure 2)
2. Quarterly Report (Enclosure 3)
3, Annual Report (Enclosure 4)
Old Business.
G.
H.
New Business.
L
Citizen Comments
J.
Next Meeting January 21,2008 at 9:30 A.M,
K.
Adiournment
~.,
J:..
,{.~
;;,'"<i;'
Misc. Comls:
Date: 0 lla1-1 0 Cf
Ilem#10IL 1)/Y2
.:wles to
-)'Mhr40~LEE CQ.A
Community Redevelopment Agency
irhe P!qce to COlli Homel
16ELllrfrS
MINUTES
Enterprise Zone Development Agency
November 19,2008
A, Call to Order. The meeting was called to order by Fred N. Thomas, Jr. at 10:05 A.M.
B. Roll Call and Announcement of a Ouorum.
Advisory Board/EZDA Members Present:
Fred N. Thomas, Jr., Richard Rice, Captain Tom Davis, Julio Estremera, Kitchell Snow,
Eva Deyo, Floyd Crews, Denise Handapangoda, PhD.. Richard Heers, Bernardo
Barnhart, Robert Halman, and Ira Malamut.
Advisory Board/EZDA Members Absent/Excused: Ana Salazar and one vacancy.
Action: A quorum was announced as being present.
lmmokalee Master Plan and Visioning Committee Present:
Fred N. Thomas, Jr.. Clarence Tears, Edward (Ski) Olesky, Carrie Williams, Richard
Rice, Floyd Crews. Rick Heers. and Rev. Jean Paul.
IMPVC Members Absent/Excused: Two vacancies.
Action: A quorum was announced as being present.
Others Present: Ralph Bosa, Brooke Gabrielson, Susi Winchell, Patrick Vanasse, Wanda
Raynor, Michael Taylor, Judi Miller. Tom Hecker, Felix Medina, Bob Soter, Susi
Winchell, Vicki Carr, Cristina Perez, Mitch Hutchcraft, Flavel Paul, William Trevino.
William Trevino, IlL. Robert Mulhere, Amy K. Taylor, Jerry Blocker. and Dean Blocker.
Staff: Penny Phillippi. Brad Muckel and Christie Betancourt.
C. Adoption of Agenda.
Action: Mr. Rice moved to adopt the Agenda, Mr. Estremera seconded the motion and the
Agenda was adopted by unanimous vote.
D. Approval of Minutes. October 15, 2008
Action: Dr. Handapangoda moved to approve the October 15. 2008 Minutes, Ms. Deyo
seconded the motion and the Minutes were approved by unanimous vote.
E. Communications. - None
F. Old Business,
I. Brownfield Coalition - Report
The grant for $1 million to the EPA was submitted. Ms. Phillippi thanked the
organizations that sent letters of support and thanked those persons who agreed to
serve on the Brownfield Steering Committee.
G. New Business,
I. Enterprise Zone Monthly Report.
Brad Muekel reported that he has been meeting with two businesses per day
during the past month to market the EZone incentives.
2. & 3. Quarterly and Annual Report
Ms. Phillippi reported that the reports are in the hands of County staff.
Action: Mv. Deyo made a motion to direct stallto submit the reports to DCA as soon as
they have been received Ji"om County Julio Estremera seconded the motion and it passed by
unanimous vote.
H. Citizen Comments.
1. Next Meeting Date. December 17,2008 at 8:30 A.M.
J. Adjournment. This meeting was adjourned at 10:15 A.M.
IMMUKAIEE c.RA
CommulJity Redevelopment A<jcIJcy
i rile pllce to CllI HOlrJcl
16/1A-5
Certification of Minutes Approval Form
"
Prepared 16y:
I /' f
,/ ,)/, J")' / /' / ) .N
15enny Phiuinni. Executive Di ee or
/7'':"')
Immokry Community Redev opment Agency
These Minutes for the November 19,2008, CRA Advisory Board/EZDA/lMI'VC Meeting
were approved by the CRA Advisory Board/EZDA/lMI'VC Committee on Decemher' ] 7.
2008, as presented.
Approved by:
- ""-
'-., "-, ..
j:red N. Thomas. Jr.. Chairmaf\ --.;----
,2\:
* The next joint Advisory Board/EZDA/lMPVC meeting will be held January 21. :200k. at
8:30A.M, at the Career and Service Center located at 750 South 51h Strect in Imlllokalec.
** There is no scheduled IMI'VC mecting at this lime, Furthcr mcctings will be held at 5:30
P.M, at the Career and Service Centcr locatcd at 750 South 51h Street in Immokalec and will be
appropriately noticed and announced in advance of such meetings.
All meetings will be publicly noticed in the W. Harmon Turner Building (13uilding F), posted at the Irnmokalee
Public Library and provided to the County Public Information Department f()r distributioll. Please call Christie
Betancourt, Administrative Assistant, at 239-252-2313 I{)f additional informatioll. In accordance \\'ith the Americall
with Disabilities Act, persons needing assistance to participate in allY or these proceedings should contact Christie
Betancourt, Administrative Assistant. at least ,-1-8 hours before the meeting. The public should be advised that
members of the Immokalee Master Plan and Visioning Committee and the eRA Advisory Board arc also members
of thc other Boards and Committees, including, but !lot limited lo: EZDA, IlT1lllokalcc Local Redevelopment
Advisory Board, lmmokalee F'ire Commission, and the Collier Coullty Housing Authority: Cle. [11 this regard,
matters coming before the IMPVC and the Advisory Board may come before one or more of the rcfercllcl"d Hoard
and Committees from timc to time.
eRA Governinl! Board
Commissioner
Donna Fiala
Chair
Commissioner
Tom Henning
Commissioner
James;..1, Coletta
Commissiont=r
Fred W, Coyk
Commissioner
Frank Halas
eRA Advisorv Board
Fred N. Thomas, Jr.
Chairman
Bernardo Barnhart
Capt. Tom Davis
Robert Halman
Ex-ofticio
J ul io Estremera
Kitchell Snow
Floyd Crews
Ana Salazar
Richard Rice
Rick !-Ieers
Eva Deyo
eRA Staff
Penny Phillippi
Executive Director
239.25223] 0
Brad Muckcl
Project Manager
239.252,5549
Christi Betancourt
Administrative Assistant
239.2522313
H.
L
J.
K.
L.
'. .... ...... .... ... ........ . .... .. .... ..... 16 , 1 A--<o
RECEIV6Q,~~~e~~~:m~~gency Fiala J)C~~ ~
DEe 23 2D08 iThe pLlCe to ('1[1 Hamel ~:::ng~
~MEIi:.T.GI!G.A{C~NDA Coyle
Community Redevelopment Agency Advisory Committee Coletta ./
J
December 17,2008- 9:45 to 10:30 A,M.
Career and Service Center of Collier County-Immokalee
750 South 51h Street. lmmokalee, Florida. 34 I 42
A.
B.
C,
D.
E.
Call to Order.
Roll Call and Announcement of a Ouorum.
Introductions.
Adoption of Agenda.
Approval of Minutes.
Regular Meeting November 19.2008 (Enclosure I)
Communications.
Consent Items.
]. Committee Resignations
a. Dr. Handapangoda (Enclosure 2)
b. Mr, Ira Malamut (Enclosure 3)
2. EDC Project Innovation Letter of Support (Enclosure 4a) and Endorsement
Packet (Enclosure 4b)
3. CRA Annual Report (Enclosure 5)
4. Commercial Fal'ade Improvement Program Monthly Report (Enclosure 6)
Old Business.
1. County Code Enforcement Monthly Highlights in lmmokalee, Kitchell Snow
New Business
I. Nominating Committee Development. - Update
2, Executive DirectorEvaluation Documents (Enclosure 7)
3, DowJltown/Public Realm Plan. - Update
Citizen Comments.
Next Meeting Date. January 21,2008 at 8:30 AM
Adiournment
F.
G.
* The next joint Advisory BoardlEZDA/IMPVC meeting wilJ be held February 18, 2009, at
8:30 A.M. at the Career and Service Center located at 750 South 5ili Street in Immokalee.
** There is no scheduled IMPVC meeting at this time. Further meetings wilJ be held at 5:30pm
at a place to be announced in lmmokalee and will be appropriately noticed and announced in
advance of such meetings.
AlJ meetings will be publicly noticed in the W. Harmon Turner Building (Building F), posted at
the lmmokalee Public Library and provided to the Counry Public Information Department for
distribution. Please Christie Betancourt, Administrative Assistant, at 239.252.2313 for
additional information. In accordance with the American with Disabilities Act, persons needing
assistance to participate in any of these proceedings should contact Christie Betancourt,
Administrative Assistant, at least 48 hours before the meeting. The public should be advised that
members of the ImmokaIee Master Plan and Visioning Committee and the CRA Advisory
Board are also members of the other Boards and Committees, including, but not limited to:
EZDA, Immokalee Local Redevelopment Advisory Board, Immokalee Fire Commission, and
the Collier County Housing Authority; etc. In this regard, matters coming before the IMPVC
and th~ Advis?ry Board may come before one or more of the refere=- ~ei. and Committees
from tIme to time. . j
Date;jJlf 'J:}jfl
llem#1 Gi1-U@
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IMMOI!(.ALEE eRA
Comrnunity Redevelopment Agency
iThe PI~ce to C~II Homer
16 I 1 JflencJosure 1
MINUTES
ImmokaIee Local/Redevelopment Agency
November 19,2008
A. Call to Order. The meeting was called to order by Fred N. Thomas. Jr. at 10: 15
A.M.
E. Roll Call and Announcement of a Quorum.
Advisory Board/EZDA Members Present:
Fred N. Thomas, Jr.. Richard Rice, Captain Tom Davis. Julio Estremera, Kitchell
Snow, Eva Deyo, Floyd Crews, Denise Handapangoda, PhD.. Richard Heers,
Bernardo Barnhart. Robert Halman, and 1ra Malamut.
Advisory Board/EZDA Members Absent/Excused:
Ana Salazar and one vacancy,
Action: A quorum was announced as being present.
1mmokalee Master Plan and Visioning Committee Present:
Fred N. Thomas. Jr.. Clarence Tears, Edward (Ski) Olesky, Carrie Williams,
Richard Rice, Floyd Crews. Rick Heers, and Rev. Jean Paul.
IMPVC Members Absent/Excused: Two vacancies.
Action: A quorum was announced as being present.
Others Present: Ralph Bosa, Brooke Gabrielson. Susi Winchell. Patrick Vanasse,
Wanda Raynor, Michael Taylor. Judi Miller, Tom Hecker, Felix Medina, Bob
Soter, Susi Winchell. Vicki Carr, Cristina Perez, Mitch Hutchcraft, Flavel Paul,
William Trevino, William Trevino, Ill., Robert Mulhere, Amy K. Taylor. Jerry
Blocker, and Dean Blocker.
Staff: Penny Phillippi, Brad Muckel and Christie Betancourt.
C. Introductions. - See Joint Meeting Minutes.
D. AdOPtion of Agenda.
Action. Mr. Crews moved to adopt the Agenda, Mr. Malamut seconded the motion
and the Agenda was adopted by unanimous vote.
E. Approval of Minutes. October 15,2008
Action: Mr. Crews moved to approve the October 15, 2008 Minutes, MI'. Deyo
seconded the motion and the Minutes were approved by unanimous vote.
F, Communications. See 1-5.
G. Consent Agenda Items.
H. Old Business.
I. Countv Code Enforcement Monthlv Highlights in Immokalee.
Kitchell Snow introduced Cristina Perez who provided a brief report on
bank foreclosures in Immokalee, Mr. Rick Heers was asked to report back
to the Board with more information on homes that are in foreclosure.
2. Status of SR 29 Bvpass Proiect Schedule. No Report.
3, Commercial Facade Improvement Program
a. Brad Muckel, CRA Project Manager, provided an update.
b, Mr. Muckel presented the legal opinion and back up materials
provided by thc County Attorney's office to clarify that it is a
conflict of interest for Advisory Board members to apply for CRA
program grants. Dr. Handapangoda stated that she was an
1
1611 M>
applicant to the Commercial Fayade Grant and asked the Advisory
Board to support her request to the BCe. Mr. Thomas stated that
he would entertain a motion that says the CRA Advisory Board
would support any Advisory Board member's request to participate
in CRA funded programs. No one offered the motion,
I. New Business
I. Nominating Committee.
Mr. Thomas appointed a Nominating Committee comprised of Captain
Davis as Chair, Rick Heers and Bernardo Barnhart. Committee members
were asked to bring their nominations to the December 17'h meeting. The
annual election of ofticers will be held at the first meeting of the year
scheduled for January 21,2009.
2. CRA Proposal to the MSTU Update.
Ms. Phillippi reported that the MSTU will meet at 4:30 this evening and
we expect to hear their decision on the CRA proposal for a partnership and
expansion of area and responsibilities of the MSTU.
3. CRA Web Page. - No report
4. Downtown/Public Realm Plan.
Ms. Phillippi announced that she had pulled the Downtown/Public Realm
Plan Change Ordcr tor R W A off the BCC Agenda in order to further
rdine the deliverables, timelines and payment schedule.
S, Executive Director Proposed Evaluation Process.
Ms, Phillippi briet1v explained the proposal of a 4 part process:
I. ED creates a personal and pertormance evaluation, submits to
Advisory Board;
2. Advisory Board members evaluate using the same tool, submit to
Commissioner Coletta;
3. Commissioner Coletta conducts evaluation, submits to the CRA
Board; and
4. CRA Board executes evaluation,
Action: Floyd Crews made a motion to instruct staff to place all routine items on
the Consent Agenda in the fitture. Denise Handapangoda seconded the motion and it
passed by unanimous vote.
J. Citizen's Comments.
K. Next Meeting Date. December 17,2008 at 8:30 AM
L. Adjournment: The meeting was adjourned at 10:48 AM
2
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lMMOKALEE eRA
Community Redevelopment Agency
i The pl~ceto C~II Hamel
CRA Governi"&: Board
MEMORANDUM
Commissioner
Tom Henning
Commissioner
Donna Fiala
DATE:
December 18, 2008
Commissioner
James N. Coletta
TO:
Sue Filson, Executive Manager, BCC .~
Christie Betancourt, Administrative Assi~:l~ "
lmmokalee Community Redevelopment ~
Agendas, Minutes, and Signed Approval
Commissioner
Fred W. Coyle
FROM:
Commissioner
Frank Halas
RE:
CRA Advisorv Board &
State Enterorise Zone
A&:encv Board
Fred N. Thomas, Jr.
Chairman
Attached are the Agendas, Minutes, and Signed Approval from November 19,
2008 for your conveyance.
Ana Salazar
Bernardo Barnhart
Eva Deyo
Floyd Crews
Kitchell Snow
Ira Malamut
Julio Estremera
Richard (Dick) Rice
Richard (Rick) t-leers
Capt. Tom Davis
Robert Halman
(Ex Officio)
Thank you.
Master Plan &
Visionin2 Committee
Fred N. Thomas Jr.
Chairman
Edward (Ski) Olesky
Clarence S. Tears, Jr.
Pastor Jean C. Paul
Carrie Williams
Floyd Crews
Richard (Rick) Heers
Richard (Dick) Rice
eRA StaIT
Penny Phillippi
Executive Director
Bradley Muckel
Project Manager
Christie Betancoun
Administrative Assistant
Immokqlee Community Redevelopment Agency
310 Alqchuq Sheet Immokllee, FL 34142
2392522313'" 239252,6725 (FAX)
IMMOKALEE eRA
Community Redevelopment Agency
i The pl"ce to C"II Homel
1611A-lP
Certification of Minutes Approval Form
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Approved by: \
'.. '_.'. "--..11., ~.".
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_--: ~. 'C <~'- ~ /~
F;;d N. Thomas, Jr., airm' / .
These Minutes for the November 19, 2008, CRA Advisory BoardlEZDAlIMPVC Meeting
were approved by the CRA Advisory BoardlEZDAlIMPVC Committee on December 17,
2008, as presented.
* The next joint Advisory BoardlEZDAlIMPVC meeting will be held January 21, 2008, at
8:30A.M. at the Career and Service Center located at 750 South 5th Street in lmmokalee.
** There is no scheduled IMPVC meeting at this time. Further meetings will be held at 5:30
P.M. at the Career and Service Center located at 750 South 5th Street in lmmokalee and will be
appropriately noticed and announced in advance of such meetings.
All meetings will be publicly noticed in the W. Hannon Turner Building (Building F), posted at the Immokalee
Public Library and provided to the County Public Infonnation Department for distribution. Please call Christie
Betancourt, Administrative Assistant, at 239-252-23 I 3 for additional infonnation. In accordance with the American
with Disahilities Act, persons needing assistance to participate in any of these proceedings should contact Christie
Betancourt. Administrative Assistant. at least 48 hours before the meeting. The public should be advised that
members of the Immokalee Master Plan and Visioning Committee and the CRA Advisory Board are also members
of the other Boards and Committees, including, but not limited to: EZDA, Immokalee Local Redevelopment
Advisory Board, Immokalee Fire Commission. and the Collier County Housing Authority; etc. In this regard,
matters coming before the IMPVC and the Advisory Board may come before one or more of the referenced Board
and Committees from time to time.
.....
eRA GoverniDl! Board
Commissioner
Donna Fiala
Chair
Commissioner
Tom Henning
Commissioner
James N. Coletta
Commissioner
Fred W. Coyle
Commissioner
Frank Halas
eRA Advisorv Board
!!<
State Enterorise Zone
A2encv Board
Fred N. Thomas, Jr.
Chairman
Bernardo Barnhart
Capt. Tom Davis
Robert Halman
Ex-officio
Julio Estremera
Kitchell Snow
Floyd Crews
Ana Salazar
Richard Rice
Rick Heers
Eva Deyo
Master Plan &
Visioninl! Committee
Fred X Thomas, Jr
Chairman
Edward (Ski) Olesky
Clarence S. Tears, Jr.
Pastor Jean C. Paul
Carrie Williams
Floyd Crews
Rick Heers
Dick Rice
eRA StafT
Penny Phillippi
Executive Director
239.2522310
Bradley Muckel
Project Manager
239.252.5549
Christie Betancourt
Administrative Assistant
239.252.2313
RECEIVED lMh40~L[t'CQ.A
:lEe 23 200"gJmmunity Redevelopment Agency
iThe PI'1ce to ('111 Hamel
0..,,,,1 u of County Commissioners
1611M
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Hennlng~
Coyle _
Coletta ..
j
JOINT MEETING AGENDA
Immokalee Master Plan and Visioning Committee And
Community Redevelopment Agency Advisory Committee
December 17, 2008- 8:30 A.M.
Career and Service Center of Collier County-Immokalee
750 South 5th Street, Immokalee, Florida, 34142
A. Call to Order.
B. Roll Call and Announcement of a Quorum.
c. Introductions.
D. Adoption of Agenda.
E. Approval of Minutes.
Regular Meeting November 19, 2008 (Enclosure I)
F. Communications.
December Public Notice (Enclosure 2)
BayshoreoImmokalee CRA's Annual Report Joint Workshop with BCC (Enclosure 3)
G. Consent Agenda.
I. RW A Monthly Report (Enclosure 4a)
2. RWA Invoice (Enclosure 4b)
H. Old Business.
1. Update on Immokalee Area Master Plan Review Process
2. Red Flag Svstem - Open for Discussion
L New Business.
L Seats on the L\1PVC
a. Two vacancies
b. One applicant-Estil Null (Enclosure 5)
2. Travel Reimbursement
a. Jim Mudd Letter (Enclosure 6a)
b. Resolution (Enclosure 6b)
c. Advisory Committee Mileage Reimbursement (Enclosure 6c)
J. Citizen Comments.
K. Next Meeting Date. Regular Meeting January 21, 2008 at 8:30 AM
L Adiournment
,
Misc. cr
Date: D l/-a.l- ~fl
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Enclosure I
JOINT MEETING MINUTES
Immokalee Master Plan and Visioning Committee and
Community Redevelopment Agency Advisory Committee
November 19,2008
A Call to Order. The meeting was called to order by Fred N. Thomas, Jr. at 8:52 AM.
B. Roll Call and Announcement of a Ouorum.
Advisory Board/EZDA Members Present:
Fred N, Thomas, Jr., Richard Rice, Captain Tom Davis, Julio Estremera, Kitchell Snow,
Eva Deyo, Floyd Crews, Denise Handapangoda, PhD., Richard Heers, Bernardo
Barnhart, Robert Halman, and Ira Malamut.
Advisory Board/EZDA Members Absent/Excused:
Ana Salazar and one vacancy.
Action: A quorum was announced as being present.
Imrnokalee Master Plan and Visioning Committee Present:
Fred N. Thomas, Jr., Clarence Tears, Edward (Ski) Olesky, Carrie Williams, Richard
Rice, Floyd Crews, Rick Heers, and Rev. Jean Paul.
IMPVC Members Absent/Excused: Two vacancies.
Action: A quorum was announced as being present.
Others Present: Ralph Bosa, Brooke Gabrielson, Susi Winchell, Patrick Vanasse, Wanda
Raynor, Michael Taylor, Judi Miller, Tom Hecker. Felix Medina, Bob Soter, Susi
Winchell, Vicki Carr, Cristina Perez, Mitch Hutchcraft, Flavel Paul, William Trevino,
William Trevino, III., Robert Mulhere, Amy K. Taylor, Jerry Blocker, and Dean Blocker.
Staff: Penny Phillippi, Brad Muckel and Christie Betancourt.
C. Introductions.
Each person introduced themselves.
D. Adoption of Agenda.
Action: The Agenda was adopted with one change (Items H 1 a. & b) after a motion by
Mr. Rice and a second by Mr. Olesky.
E. Approval of Minutes. October IS. 2008and Special Meeting Minutes November 6. 2008.
Action: Both set of Minutes approved unanimously upon a motion by Mr. Rice and a
second by Capt. Davis.
F. Communications.
The Executive Director reiterated the need for members notify her of any meetings where
one or more members will be in attendance,
G. Consent Agenda, There were no consent items.
H. Old Business.
I. Update on Immokalee Area Master Plan Review Process/LDC Update Process,
a. & b. Ms. Phillippi asked RWA to resubmit both the monthly report and
the monthly invoice. She informed the Board that she will be required to pay the
invoice within 10 days once it is resubmitted. She requested the Board grant
approval of the invoice for up to 65% of the current requested amount of
$46,493.00.
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Action: Clarence Tears made a motion to grant the Executive Director's request to pay
the R WA invoice for up to 65% of the current request of $46, 493.00 without the need to bring it
back to the Board for approval. Eva Deyo seconded and the motion passed unanimously
c, Ms. Phillippi requested direction to create a Change Order to the R W A
contractual agreement for the extra work required to complete the Interim
Land Development Code.
Action: Eva Deyo made a motion to direct staff to create a Change Order to the R W A
contractual agreement for the extra work required to complete the Interim Land Development
Code; Dr. Handapangoda seconded the motion and it passed by unanimous vote.
d. The final Draft Master Plan and the Future Land Use Map was distributed
to all present.
Action: Dick Rice made a motion to authorize RWA to submit the Draft Master Plan to
the County for review as an Amendment to the Collier County Comp Plan with the minor
changes discussed (typo, density and internal circulation). The motion was seconded by Ira
Malamut and passed by unanimous vote.
2. Red Flag System - Open for Discussion.
Wanda Raynor discussed the Code Enforcement violation at Raynor's Seafood.
Various sign problems around Immokalee were discussed.
Action: Denise Handapangoda made a motion to request of the BCC that when the
County finds a sign that does not meet code and the sign causes no health or safety hazard to the
community (as determined by Kitchell Snow) that the sign be granted a variance until such time
as the Immokalee LDC sign regulation has been completed Capt. Davis seconded the motion
and it was approved by unanimous vote.
L New Business.
I. TODS Citizens Committee Meeting Minutes. - No Report
2. Presentations:
Mr. Thomas Hecker presented his proposal for Edible lmmokalee.
Mr. Paul presented the activities of the Church of the Nazarene.
Seats on the IMPVC
a. Mr. Thomas announced that the IMPVC still has two vacant seats that
needs to be filled.
Citizen Comments,
Next Meeting Date.
Adiournment.
3.
L
J,
K.
December 17,2008 at 8:30 A.M.
This meeting was adjourned at 10:05 A.M.
2
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IMNh )KAIEE (1<'/\
COlTJll7l1nity Rcdevelopment A'Jcnc:y
i The Phce to cdl HOll7cl
Certification of Minutes Approval Form
1
Prepared Jl>y:
/
Approved by:
/ .
;/J' ,J,,'_/
enny Ph' i. Executive Oi ec or
Immokrr Community Redev\1'opment Agency
These Minutes for the November 19,2008, CRA Advisory Boanlfr~ZDAflMI'VC Meeting
were approved by the CRA Advisory Boardfli:ZDA/IMI'VC Committee on December 17,
2008, as presented.
}.c,
"H \.
Fred N, Thomus. Jr.. Chairrnu;\
-+----
* The next joint Advisory Board/EZDA/lMI'VC meeting will be held January 21. 2008. at
8:30A.M. at the Career and Service Center located at 750 South 51h Street in Iml11okulee.
** There is no scheduled IMI'VC meeting at this time. Further meetings will be held at 5:30
P.M. at the Career und Service Center locatcd at 750 South Slh Street in Immokalee and will be
appropriately noticed und announced in advance of such meetings.
All meetings will be publicly noticed in Ihe W. I-Jarmon Turner Building (Building F). posted at the Imlllokalee
Public Library and provided to the County Public Information Department for distributioll. Please call Christie
Betancourt, Administrative Assistant, at 239-252-2313 for additional informatioll. In accordance with the American
with Disabilities Act. persons needing assistance to participate in any of thcse proceedings should cuntact Christie
Betancourt, Administrative Assistant. at least 48 hOllrs before the meeting. The public should be advised that
members of the lmmokalee Master Plan and Visioning Committee and the eRA Advisory Board arc also members
of the other Boards and COlllmittees, including, but not limited to: I.::ZDA, Immokalee Local Redcvclopmcm
Advisory Board, Irnmokalee Fire Commission, and the Collier Counly I-lousing Authority; de. [11 this regan.L
matters coming before the IMPVC and the Advisory Board may come before Olle or rnon: of the reli:rcnced Board
and Committees from time to time.
1 6 I 1 AS ,/
Fiala
NcHelaiPer :xL
~\\I€.O Henning
~~~\ Co~e
~ 'y ~ _ Coletta ":fr ~
Ut.e. \ ~UTES OF THE MEETING OF THE PARKS AND
\IO.,60ICOuo\,; RECREATION ADVISORY BOARD
Naples, Florida, November 19, 2008
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Parks and Recreation Advisory Board, in
and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date
at 2:00 P.M., at the North Collier Regional Park in the Administration Building in
Naples, Florida, with the following members present:
CHAIRMAN: John P. Ribes
VICE CHAIRMAN: Edward "Ski" Olesky
Frank Donohue
Barbara Buehler
Paul Nyce
Kerry Geroy (Excused)
Bart Zino
,
ALSO PRESENT: Barry Williams, Director, Parks & Recreation
Murdo Smith, Parks and Recreation
Tona Nelson, Sr. Administrative A~sist.
- Misc. Corres:
..,t.
Copies to
16 I 1 k'8
November 19, 2008
I. Call to Order
Chairman Ribes called the meeting to order at 2:04 PM.
II. Pledge of Allegiance and Invocation
The Pledge of Allegiance was recited and Invocation was given.
III. Approval of Agenda
Ms. Buehler moved to approve the agenda. Second by Mr. Donohue. Carried
unanimously 5-0.
Mr. Nyce arrived at 2:07 PM
IV. Approval of October 15, 2008 Meeting Minutes
Mr. Zino moved to approve the minutes of the October 15, 2008 meeting. Second by Ms.
Buehler. Carried unanimously 6-0.
V. New Business
a) Directors Highlights
Barry Williams Director of Parks and Recreation provided the following updates:
. The Board of County Commissioners (BCC) approved the $1 M payment
to the City of Naples.
. The BCC postponed action on the Port of the Isles Marina acquisition-
The acquisition involves the Marina Store, Boat Ramp, Fuel Facilities, etc.
No boat slips are included in the acquisition as the primary purpose is for
public access to a marina and boat ramp. The parcel may be the location
of a new Ochopee Fire District Facility.
. The BCC approved the Purchase of the Pepper Ranch parcel. Parks and
Recreation may manage the site in partnership with various other
organizations (FGCU, Conservation Collier, etc.)
. Discussions continue with Miami-Dade Parks and Recreation regarding
possible uses at the 25,000 acre "Transition and Training Jet Port" located
on US 41.
Mr. Olesky arrived at 2: 17PM
b) Employee of the Month for October - Barry Williams and P ARAB Board
Postponed until December.
VI. Marketing Highlights - Peg Ruby
- Snowfest, Parks Answering Machine, Survey Monkey
A marketing package was provided to the Board and the following highlights were noted:
. A copy of a Parks and Recreation Department Public Survey was included
in the package.
. The new Recreation Guide (R.E.A.L. - Recreation Education Activities
and Leisure Guide) will be available December 1,2008.
2
i1 l 'Nlfi! 19, 2008
· Grand Openings were held for the Golden Gate Boat Ramp (October 9,
2008) and the Oaks Neighborhood Park (November 11, 2008).
. Snowfest will be held on December 6, 2008 at Golden Gate Community
Park.
· Sun-N-Fun Lagoon is partnering with King Richards Park for a combined
Christmas Break entry fee package.
. All answering machines for the Parks and Recreation Department
Facilities now have a consistent greeting.
The Board recognized Peg Ruby's outstanding work in this area.
VII. Recreational Highlights
- Champ Boat Races - Ralph Pryor and Murdo Smith
Ralph Pryor of the Sports Advisory Council provided an overview of the Council
noting the following:
. The Organization is "not for profit" and primarily funded by sponsorships
from Corporations and Businesses in the lodging industry.
. An Advisory Board oversees the Organization.
. The Organization works in conjunction with the Lodging Industry, Parks
and Recreation Department and the Convention Visitors Bureau bringing
events to the area.
. In FY '08 19 major events were held at 6 Parks and Recreations
Department facilities generating 4,000 room nights with a Direct
Economic Impact of $2M.
Murdo Smith and Ralph Pryor provided an update on the Champ Boat Races:
. The event was held at Sudgen Park on November 5 - 6, 2008.
. It generated $152,000 in Direct Economic Impact to the region.
. Business sponsorships, private money, a $2000 Florida Sports Foundation
Grant and gate entrance fees funded the event.
. No Tourist Development Council Funds were involved
. An attempt will be made to lower Gate Entrance Fees if the event is held
in the future.
. Noise of the F-l and F-2 Race Boats was not an issue.
. Noise from drag boats utilized for "entertainment" before races were
determined to be a cause for future concern.
. No alcohol was sold at the event; this will be a future consideration.
Ralph Pryor will provide information on the "prize purse" awarded at the event.
- IDC Naples Fall Classic - Ed Torroni
The following was noted:
. An!BC (International Baseball Classic Baseball League) event was held in
Collier County on September 27 and 28, 2008.
. The Organization holds youth events throughout the State of Florida
3
1611N6
November 19,2008
. 24 teams utilized 4 County Facilities.
. A similar event scheduled for October was cancelled due to lack of
demand created by !BC scheduling conflicts.
. Future events are scheduled for March 13 - 15, 2009 and May 10 - 11,
2009 (lBC Naples Summer Bash)
Mr. Zino noted the event was extremely successful and encouraged the events to continue.
- Summer Series BMX State Qualifier - Ray Coriano and Vickie Wilson
The following was highlighted regarding the BMX Track:
. The BMX Track facility is open to the public and located at Golden Gate
Community Park.
. It is the only BMX Track in the County and has a "Pro Shop" facility.
. Safety is a primary goal accomplished by rigid enforcement of rules.
. Regular clinics, summer camps and public events are held.
. It also hosts Statewide amateur competitions (State Summer Series
Qualifier, etc.)
. Interest in the Facility is growing and it also holds competitions sponsored
by Private Organizations.
. These events provide Direct Economic Benefits to the area.
. The Facility is under consideration by organizers for the State Qualifier in
2010.
Mr. Nyce left at 3:20PM
VIII. Capital Project Highlights - Tony Ruberto
Murdo Smith provided the highlights in absence of Tony Ruberto noting Golden Gate
Community, Starcher Petty, Gulf Coast, Vineyards and Veterans Park are receiving fencing
improvements at a cost of $349,000. The work will take 120 days to complete.
Adopt a Park - Barbara Buehler
Ms. Buehler submitted a document "November Parks Report" to the Board for review.
She noted revenues from Fitness Centers should be re-invested into the Facilities, as the
treadmills at Max Hasse Park are becoming less functional.
IX. Informational Items
Attendance Report
Submitted
BCC Recaps
Submitted
Recreation Activities
Submitted
Adopt a Park Assignments
Submitted
Meeting Schedule
Submitted
4
1611A-K
November 19, 2008
X. Public Comments
None
Meetinl! Attendance Report
Ms. Geroy was excused.
Mr. Nyce left early.
The next meeting will be held on December 17, 2008.
There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned
by order ofthe Chair at 3:34 PM.
COLLIER COUNTY PARKS & RECREATION
ADVISORY BOARD
C
These Minutes approved by the Board/Committee on
as presented or as amended--L.
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1 A.d:aala
11 ilIalas
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Coyle
Coletta ~-
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Boara Of CountY Commissioners
PELICAN BAY SERVICES DIVISION BOARD MEETING
Nallles, FIOI'ida, Ortobe.' 1, :!O08
LET IT BE REMEMBERED_ THAT THE Pelican Bay Services Division Board_ in and for the County of Collier
having conducted business herein, met on this date at l:00 p.m_ in REGULAR SESSION at Hammock Oak Center. 8960
Hammock Oak Drive_ Naples_ Florida with the following members present:
Mary Anne Womble, Chairwoman
James Burke
Michael Levy
Ted Raia
John Boland
John Iaizzo
Gerald Moffatt
Absent: Ed Staros, Annette Alvarez and Geoff Gibson
Also present: John Petty, Administrator, Pelican Bay Services Division; Janice Lamed, District Offices, LLC; Kyle
Lukasz, Field Manager, Pelican Bay Services Division; Mary MeCaughtry, Recording Secretary, Pelican Bay Services
Division; Doug Finlay, City of Naples; Kathy Worley, Conservancy of Collier County, Tim Hall, Turrell, Hall and
Associates; James Hoppensteadt, Pelican Bay Foundation; and Tom Cravens, President, Mangrove Action Group.
AGENDA
1. Introduction and Welcome of New Board Members
2. Roll Call
3_ Approval of Minutes of September 3, 2008 Meeting
4. Collier County's Clam Pass Park Renovation Plan by Gary McAlpin
5. Audience Participation
6. Administrator's Report
Board Members Request to Disseminate Information
Resignations of Pendergrass and Staros
District Informalion (Independent, Dependent, CDD)
RMA Proposal for Surface Water Utilization Plan and Permitting
7. Chairwoman's Report
Appointment of Members to Committees
8. Committee Reports
Clam Bay
No Report
Government Relations
None
Budget Committee
None
9. Capital Projects
Update on Myra Janco Daniels Blvd. Median
Update on Vanderbin Beach Rd. Bollard Lighting
11.
Community Issues
None
Plan Reviews
None
Committee Requests
Audience Comments
Adjourn
10.
12.
13.
14.
MISC COIJes,
Ie D\l~l--lo9-
Meetin!! Note Gregory Court Reporting did not amve to transcnbe the meetmg therell?il1, 1l'~T W~neJd up for 15
mmutes while a tape recorder was retrieved and set up Item #. ~ L A 9'
Copies to
7577
Pelican Bay SCI"\ires Division Meeting
October 1. 2008
1611 tR
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: States Recorder IS in place ,md called the mecling to order al I: 15 p.m.
ROLL CALL
MS. MCCAUGHTRY: Let the record reflecl thaI all members are prescnt with the exception of Ed Staros, Alvarcz
and Geoff Gibson, our new board member. does Ilot ~m-j\'e back in towlllllltil about the middle of the montll.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Al tlus time I would like to introduce Mr. Jerry Moffatt to my immediate left, and
Goeff Gibsou will be here for tile next meeting. We have 2 new positions available on this board, regrettably we have the 2
gentlemen who have had 10 drop ont Mr. Staros and Mr. Pendergrass and we will have spots available now for two more on
onr board and welcome Jerry.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Does anyone have any comments on tile minnles or likc to approve tllem.
-~-----~--
Mr. Jame.\' Burke moved, secontlell hy Mr. John laizzo anti approvetl
unanimous(p the Minutes of the September 3, 2008 meeting.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Mr. McAlpin has kincUy ..'
MR MOFFATT: Excuse mc, but first I don't know what the protocol is, but I had a conple qnestions on things that
were covered [nthe uunmes, but I don't see them on the agenda today and was wondering when the appropriate time to raise
tllOse questions were?
MR PETTY: Madam Chair if I may. If yon see any section on the agenda that comes close to whatever it is, it
would be appropriate to bring it np tltere otherwise it typically comes at tile end of the meeting when Chair asks for questions
or comments,
MR MOFFATT: They are not close so I will wait to the end.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Once again Mr, McAlpin has joined us to give us what he has already reported to tile
public but this is an imonnational meeting and we wonld very much appreciale Mr. McAlpin's presentation one more time
tllat was done for The Foundation.
MR MCALPIN: Thank you Madron Chair. For tile record I anI Gary McAlpin with Collier County Coastal Zone
Management and would like 10 take the opportunity 10 preseul to PBSD and members of thc andience who haven't seen it, a
new beach park facility thai Collier Coullly is proposing to The Foundation, As members here know, iu our deed for the
property for the Estuary there are restrictive covenants and we need to obtain The Foundation approval to move forward. The
process is that we have developed a conceptual plan for improved beach parking facilities thai we wonld like to see pennitted
7578
Pelican Bay Sen'ices Di",ision Meeting
October 1. 2008
16111*'7
and incorporated mId wc have prcscntcd that to the Pelican Bav Foundation asking for their approval mId I would like to take
this opportunity to share it \vith the Services Division. As everyone knows, the Collier County Commission has charged us
with increasing beach. park and boater access and we have taken the oPPoI1.unity to look into Clam Pass Park, which is one of
our most popular parks, and expand on what ,ve are doing here. Tltis park typically is over crowed on \Yeekends~ in season:
and holidays and for those of you who are fanliliar with the park we are located right here, tlus is Clmn Pass.
At this time Gary McAlpin had a map and conceptnal dmwings that he showed on the screen and explained what they would
like to do or are proposiug to do at this time. TIle prcscntation involved ncw shade structure areas, new restroom facilities
and expanding of the boardwalks for trmn service to tile new facilities and a walk over across the mangroves to a lookout to
the clmn bay lagoon. The kayakillg facilities were proposed to be upgraded with a new launeh area, have a storage area and a
landing area for kayakers so they would be able to access tile beaeh if they were so inclined. McAlpin said the County
believes tllat in order for a park. or beach, ete. to bc suceessful it has have water. restrooms, parkiug and be easy to get to
because moms come and bring cluldren, eoo[ers, etc. mId it has to be safe. McAlpin went on to cxplain mmlY people only use
about 150 feet on either sidc of the tram drop offs and so what the County wants to do is make more use of all the beach by
spreading out facilities and have deck or ramp for handicap. etc. The County is not going to inerease parking at this time, but
said if it proves to be insufficient they would look to institute a tram service with parking else\vhere and not increase
parking. The envirol1lllent is also a concern mId so it would take about 2 years to pennit it and about a year to build it
McAlpin explained what tile County is looking for is conceptual approval fmm The Fonndation. TIle Foundation has told
McAlpin they wonld like somctime to poll their members and come up "ith a list of questions for the County and the County
would then respond McAlpin wanted to share thc concept with the Selvice Division to make sure therc is no confusion
about what this would look like. McAlpin eomplcted his presentation mId said he was available for questions.
MR. IAIZZO: How many mangroves do you intend to take down"
MR. MCALPIN: Wc don't know at this time, wc wonld mininuze the ronte through tIle mangroves to minimize tile
impact on the mangroves, our concept would be over the mangroves, we may have to trim but aren't looking to take any out
by designing it in such a way that the colulllns or piers would be thc only footprint that wonld potentially impact the
mangroves and eveT)1Jling else would be above the mangroves similar in concept to the way the existing boardwalks are now.
Wc are not looking to destroy or remove any mangroves were looking to work with the mangroves and nntil we complete our
surveys we really wonf know but that is what our scope is right now.
7579
Pelican Bay Sen'ices Dil'ision Meeting
October 1. 2008
1611~
MR SOLAND: The south area down by the restaurant and manned by the Naples Grande why not move the
faciiities dO\vn there to alleviate having to cul through the mangroves.
MR. MCALPIN: John, we want to spread people more down the beach by having facilities for them. We have
people that go just a little each way. We want to avail other ponions of the beach to spread the people out. We have plenty
of beach but it is all congregated in the same areas close to access.
MR. SOLAND: 111is will be utilized by people and swimmers, and kayakers, canoeing etc,'?
MR. MCALPIN: Yes, everyone, that would use the beach for sunba111ing, swimming, goofing off or whatever not
just kayaking or canoeing.
l\1R. BOLA1\'D: There won't be auy beach chairs, or umbrella st;mds so the people would have to lug a lot of stuff
on the trams that doesn't make sense to me.
MR. MCALPIN: Don't people bring things down on the trams uow'?
MR. BOLAND: I would like to circumvent as much of touching any of the mangroves, because 11mt creates a
problem and Tim is more aware of that than we arc, why can't YOII move south? The only objection I have is building more
board walk through the mangroves. Can't you go Ollt the other way south'?
MR MCALPIN: No. we don't Imve any access coming 1113t way
MR. BOLAND: Ok there's no pass situating out of .
DR RAIA: 111e original plans from 111e 7tJ's there was access they looked at it as the southern approach. I can see
the need for this, but YOII will have to get approvals from certain enviromnentHI groups. Is llmt correct'?
MR. MCALPIN: Yes. 11m! is correct
DR RAIA: HHve you Ullked to them yet?
MR. MCALPIN: We have. We l13d preliminary discussions with DEP, US AmlY Corp, Couuty Commissiouers
and The Pelican SHY FoundHtion.
DR. RAIA: I am more interested in tile enviromuent Hpprovals. I would like to learn whHt their position is and if
tlley hHve some order of tile conditions in doing it. A lot of 11rings can be done but hHve to be done a certain way. I would
like to have some concept of whHt 111ey would be looking at so that we could help on any approvals you may necd from The
Pelican Bay Foundation. I am not speaking for them. but so that we would have more coordiilllted approach rather than
going off on divergent directions.
7580
Pelican Bay Senices Dhision Meeting
October 1. 2008
Ib J 14-9
MR MCALPIN: That's why the regulatory process with DEP takes so long. It's because we work hand in hand
with them to develop a package or proposal that has the least impact to the euviroument. The US Army Corp. of Engineers is
all about mangroves and wetlands: and pan of that process is we work with tllcm to get a position tlmt is permitted, so that in
fact, we can move forward and we will be happy to work with Pelican Bay and update Pelican Bay as we work tllfough this.
However, tImt is the permitting process tlmt we would have to go through with the OEP and thc Corp. of Enginecrs.
DR RAlA: Thank you.
MR. IAIZZO: That lane there doesn't cxist you would be adding cost aud lost mangroves if you cut across there.
why do you feel you need another path?
MR. MCALPIN: When we have an emergcncy or something, we need to have the ability to get out as quiekly as
possible. So this is one route to get out and tItis is another route to gel oul. We want to Imve the capability to get in and get
out. The only other thing I would mention is if you look atlhis right through there, that is an old cxisting boardwalk through
there so we are trying to parr,llell as much of the existing path as we can. We just tItink tllat from 'll1 e"l'osure point of view
it would be better to have duplicate ways to get in and get oul. That's our basis,
BURKE: Gdfy, would Illerc also be a sitlUltion where the Tram drivers know that the beach is filling up so they
would automaticaJIy take that spur down to tile southem end.
MR. MCALPIN: I would that think that would be a consideration Jim, yes. Any other questions? Weill thank yon
for your indulgence and wanted to make sure you had an opporlmtity to see this. We'll continue to keep npdated with tIle
Foundation and thank you. 1113Ilk you Madmn Chair.
AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Thank you Mr. McAlpin. According to our agenda we next have audience
participation. You have 3 minutes. I suggest you walk to the microphone and give us your name and where you live in
Pelican Bay and let us know what your tIlOughts are. Do we have anyone tImt wants to participate at this time? Thcre is no
one racing up to the microphone I scc.
MR. BURKE: Madam Chair, if we are not going (0 have any public comments I would likc to intClject some items
tImt I havc had on my mind tlmt I refer to as kind of general housekeeping for thc board. i tlunk they are items that need to
be addressed before we proceed into \\'hat I see as some pretly tough months coming up for the service division. 1n my
opinion this board is gradually, during the past year, reduced itself to a state of near irrelevancy. Wllile I realize that
announcement does not seem to be a negative to some, I believe to the properly owners of Pelican Bay it is a huge negative.
758]
Pelican Bay Senrices Di\'ision Meeting
October I, 2008
161111-9
A close read of the minutes of tIle last three board meetings alone will reinforce what I haye jnst said about irrelevancy. A
review of our activities our aclions our behaviors during the past year \vill further reinforce my opinion, This board has been
meandering and in my opinion, J have gone public with it and I'm not happy with what has happened but in my opinion this
board is solely responsible for the enrreut state of affairs and our own decline.
DR. RAlA: Madam Chair. a point of order.
MR BURKE: We now have an opporttmity p
DR. RAIA: A point of order.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yes.
DR RAIA: I think Mr. Moffall had a superior claim to taking the floor and I would suggest that Mr Burke can
follow at the end of the meeting I don't think the audience is here for tltis and if they are, they can wait to the end of the
meeting also. I suggest we proceed with the agenda.
MR BURKE: What about Mr Moffatt?
DR RAIA: He wanted to speak and..
MR. BURKE: I didn't know that
DR RAlA: And we told him we had to wait until tlle end.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Since you had heard, or I thought you had, that you had to have somethiug similar to
what we were presenting at the given point
MR. BURKE: I can wait to the end, it's going to ltit some people prelly hard, bntt eilll wait
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I would just as soon that you lUlve something that is gOtilg to be important to the
Administrators. Report.
MR. BURKE: Believe me. I will waitlllltilthe end, believe me il will be important
ADMINISTRATOR'S REPORT
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right Mr. Pelly we would like your report on board members request to
disseminate infonnation.
BOARD MEMBERS REOFUEST TO DISSEMINATE INFORMATION
MR. PETTY: Madam Chair we received a request from a board member Mr. Burke, 10 disseminate information
from a personal attendance at a county commission meeting of some importance and consideration to our PBSD. He
basically asked if he could disseminate thaI at the ne,t meeting so we brought tllllt before the board for discussion. As the
7582
Pelican Ba)' Sen'ices Division Meeting
Octobc.' 1, 2008
1611ft-9
board knows, we have a new liaison policy where intergO\'ernmenlaJ relationship and correspondence will be done as
directed by the chair and as far as dissemination the staff has no policy to go on so \vc bring it to the board should you wish
to discuss the issue.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: As I underslood it. we already passed a motion stating that we would have whoever
seemed to be the person that had the expertise to be our informant person that was going to go and discuss things with
whomever was important. relevanl or whalever connly agency was involved. Is thai what you are talking abonl?
MR PETTY: Madam Chair illat type of relationship and correspondence in coming back 10 the board with that
information is what the liaison \l'as all about and that position is now to be assigned on a casc-by-casc basis.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Correct and it's already a done deal and we passed that as a motion.
MR PETTY: Tllis is somewhal sinlilar in Illat regard ,md it ask for Illis dissemination concept of conling back and
reporting on what happened in their viewpoint. which is something thai may not have been designed or dirccted by the chair
and it would be a new policy to be considered, Staff had no direction to follow because we did know that it had changed.
CHAIR WOMAN WOMBLE: Okay so just let me get illis correcl. This wonld be a person from our board going to
a meeting or having a meeting with somcone and coming back 10 report on said meeting or situation without prior knowledge
from the board they were nol being representative of our board Illey were jnst going to be reporting back to us')
MR. PETTY: Yes, Madam Chair and though this would substitute for the public record, which is something that
was taken under consideration when the board voted to assign the liaison position on a case by case basis, on a need basis,
Illat was one of Ille consideration bnt we bling il back to you sbould you wish consider this.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay, let me jnst make sure everyone is on the same page. In other words if we
cboose to do so, at this point we can decide that anybody on this board that has gone to a meeting can come back and inform
the rest of us as to their take, their ideas on what has gone forth at this meeting. Not that they were assigned to do that but
just as a citizen of Pelican Bay illey have gone in their own right and are mming back and discnssing Illis with ns with their
own take on what was heard.
MR IAIZZO: Wonldn't it be enough 10 have the minutes from that meeting"
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I think that is a concern. If it is a meeting where there were minntes taken and
important enough to be discussing we probably need those minutes.
7583
Pelican Bay Services Dhision Meeting
October 1, 2008
16/1A!j
DR. RAIA: Madam Chair. I thought we had discussed tllis and a person \\as to be assigned a certain responsibility
and exercise that responsibility then come back and report to the board. Now. If an individual from tlus board wants to talk
privately with the commission they certainly hm'c a rightlo but hopefully thc)' arc not representing the board.. 1f they are not
representing the board. I see no reason for them 10 come back and report to tile board. I think tlmt is a private matter tlmt
anybody can talk 10 tile conunissioners anj1ime they wanl. but coming back and reporting to the board might give the
appearance U131 it is quasi official and ( don'1 think we want to go there right no\\'.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: There is another way to handle this 100. If one of us should be at a meeting and it is
reported on there are minules we can request tlmt tllllt mecting be parI of the ncxlmectings agcnda and supply everyone with
the minutes and take a look at what occurred and discuss it morc realistically from a vie,,' point of what we all see in tllOSC
minutes. Does that make sense?
DR RAIA: I tlunk tlmt makes sense.
MR IAlZZO: It makes better sense simply because you arc not gettiug someoue' s opiniou your getting the minutes
of the meeting your not getting a biased opinion possibly.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: From what I can remember, I believe tllat was part of our discussion when we were
trying to decide on how best to represent us at different meetings: or with commissioners: or \\.ith scientist or whoever we
might need to be talking with. We needed to have someone who was on site from OW" board \vith an expertise in that area to
better serve our needs. So we do need minutes I would think for everyone 10 be on tile same page. I keep nsing that tenn, bnt
with the Sunshine Law without being aware of \vhat everybody else on tile board is aware of we can't reall,),' go fonvard and
make any really good policies or decisions. Jerry, I see you're Imving a question.
MR. MOFFATT: l'm struggling with this. I understand your liaison ;md liaison indicates a hvo-way discussion so
you want somebody to go meet with an official or whatever ,md they have a two-way discussion and tlmt person is appointed
to report back. But, in this case, it sounds like we are getting a current vie\\' of something that went on at a public meeting
that we would not otherwise get. [fyou don't have those minutes, and I can't imagine how thick those minutes arc, there is
not enongh time in the day to read through all those so if you can have a person al1end and come back with the gist or
synopsis or the exact words of ,vhat transpired that affects us. it seems to me that's a benefit to us and makes it a little lllorc
relevant and we heard in early discnssion abont nol being relevant. So j don't nndersland whal tile problem is. It's not a
liaison it's someoue tlml attends a meeting and what the)' heard tile}' think eyeryone ought to be aware of it. Wlmt's wrong
with tlmt'!
7584
Pelican Bay Senices Dh'ision Meeting
October 1. 2008
11
"
[~,
V/
.>>!!
A-ri
DR. RAIA: I don't think there is anything 'Hong \\ith that the way you arc presenting it but if that person made
comments at the meeting it wouIdn'1 require you to go through the entire stack of minutes to see what 0131 person actually
said at tbat meeting and had the minutes available rather than just verbal recalling. YOll could have both.
MR MOFFATT: I dido't wlderst:md that we were looking at what a person may have said as opposed to what the
commissioners said or \vhat the conunissioners took action 011.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: It's not jnst commissioners it would be maybe a smaller meeting among people who
are discussing something that is valuable 10 Pelican Bay. it could be any kind of meeting.
MR. MOFFATT: Shouldn't we know that?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE Yes
MR PETTY: If I may add to that The liaison position is for just talking to individuals. It is typically with our
local government that inclndes county commissioners and county staffers that is how it has been in the past It has also been
to attend committee meetings or other advisory meetings like Ule CAC or the other Clam Bay Advisory Group that was
brought up a while back. So again, the liaison position has had many assignments in the past and they do include attending
meetings so for a member of this board lo ask for disseminatiollc as an agenda item is sometbing tlle staff docs not have
admiuistrative procedure to follow. It would appear to be within tbe liaison position which has cbanged recently whielI is
why we bring it back to you for consideration. That docsn't prevent any board member bringing up under committee
requests or comments any item Ulllt Uley Ulink requires aelion. foolIer study or discussion at Ulllt point All we are asking for
is when a board member does ask us for this, to put it on the agend(J~ sillce we typict:llly try to honor an supervisors requests
for agenda items is how stalI should handle it
DR. RAIA: We are going back to point zero with this, but it is my understanding that the board would direct
somebody to atteud a particnlar meeting or speak to a particular person and report back. If we are going to drift back to one
member of the board attending certain meetings and that person's opinion is being rendered independent of the boards
position and U,en coming back and giviug reports here which may be meaniugfill or not That is Ule very thing we were
trying to avoid and I don't know why we are into this discussion again, I UlOught we clarified it If we have to send
somebody to a CAC meeting Madam Chair you conld ask somebody to attend and report back othenvise we can just keep tbe
way we are going here.
7585
Pelican Buy Senrices Dhision Meeting
October 1. 2008
16/1*'1
I'vlR MOFFATT: What your suggestiug is, is (hat we operate with as litile information as possible. This doesn't
sound like it was a liaison type function. I went to a rHccling. I heard the discussion, and I want 10 tell you all about the
discussion as it relates to us. What's the problem?
DR RAIA: The problem is if tJmt person is representing ns at tJlltmeeting and making slatements I would like to
know what their position was.
MR MOFFATT: You say he is or if!
DR RAIA: Well. notJling is taking place right now. so it was in the pasl or wonld be n tJle future.
MR. BURKE: Madam Chair. if I can inteffi.pt Ted as he intermpted me earlier. This all stems from a reqnest I
made. I attended a meeting. I don't even remember what the meetjng was now and I had 5 points that summaJized the
actions taken by whoever that meeting was held by and il was no different than this kind of stuff Ihat shows up at our
mcctings, My intent was (0 send 1Imt to Mary and have those 5 points put in front of (he board for the next meeting. I didn't
think we were going to get into who said what, who represented what. who asked wlllt questions, I wasn't even going to
cover it in the meeting it was just going to be a sumlillu)': I didn't participate in the meeting. I didn't make any comments, I
didn't violate tJlese rules of who represents who. what wheu or where. ThaI's all it was, which is no different thau this kind
of stuff.
DR RAIA: What's the problem?
MR. BURKE: I don't know 101m Ims it on the agenda.
DR RAlA: There is no problem.
MR. BURKE: Seems to be a hot button issue.
DR RAIA: I had no problem.
MR. IAIZZO: LeI's forget about it and move on please.
MR. BURKE: Y ca, we could spend the ne>.1 hour on tillS.
MR. MOFFATT: Why don't we disseminate and move on.
MR. BURKE: I forgot all about it. I don't even know what it was now.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Well, I am looking at an email from yon to Mary and it was sununary of the BCC
mccting as regards Clam Bay.
MR. BURKE: Ok. yes, it was kind of important Are my points there?
CHAlRWOMAN WOMBLE: No.
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Peliean Bay Se."Vices Dilision Meeting
October 1. 2008
1 6 I 1 4-'1
MR. BURKE: I don'1 even know what they were now. I also emaiJcd Heidi Ash/on 1,0 get clarification from her
and she supported bringing il to the meeting and putting it on the table for OUf records is all. But, I didn't do it, i mean it
\\'asn't worth it and if I did it. I don't know \vhat that would have cost.
MR. MOFFAT: It would be nice to play with a full deck.
MR. PETTY: Madam Chair. if I might address the full deck issue. That meeting had been discussed at great length
at least 30 days every day before We were keenly aware of the commissioners considemtion of the responsibilities for the
maintenance and the stewardship of Clam Bay being discnsscd and what may happcn at that meeting. And, I mnst have
talked to at least half of this board before the meeting actually closed down completely wanting to know what happened.
Madani Chair we arc not operating half loaded. We do get the information cenainly there is nothing wrong with gelling the
information. But, we need to have some type of procedure so that we can have an orderly meeting. Otherwise, I may have
four requests to disseminate the So:'llne meeting, how can staff address the issue. So we look for direction not for confusion.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: TIus is 'Ill agenda item concern evidently and length of meeting whoever is chair
probably would be the person tllllt you would contact and say what about tllis. Then we can go from there and if that
particnlar sitnation occurs maybe tllllt would be the right time to bring it up rallier than right at the moment.
DR. RAIA: John, we are all interested in Chun Bay and if the BCe had it on their agenda and discussed it, can't
you get that section of those minutes and distribute to Lhosc members because it is information we should have, and not have
tile enlire 10 hours of mccting minules to go through jnst the section on Clam Bay that penains to ns.
MR. PETrY: Certainly Madam Clmir we can do such assignmellls.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: We can do that or if you will avail us of the exact web site dala in which to bring it
up and pnll it up on our own compnters. I know sometimes tllllt is kind of iffy becanse it is really difficull to find it
MR. PETIY: We will provide a link for all board members. We can do that
MR. LEVY: We got a letter from John dated Sept. II dealing with what look place at that meeting on Sept 9 it
snmmarized the new board members who were appointed and also what happened in regard 10 the Clam Bay. I think you
sent it to everyone.
MR PETIY: Yes sir I did
CHAJRWOMAN WOMBLE: We are getting infonnation disseminated. I think al tliis point we will go through the
chair, whoever that may be at the time, if somelhing does occur and ifbecomes a real issue we can bring it before the board
and decide on a procednral step by step. OlllCrwise, we should be able to be able to pull it up on our own computers.
7587
Pelican Bay Services Dhision Meeting
October I. 2008
16
I(q
Everybody here seems to be pretty computer literate and find olll what it is in that section of the Jueeling. whatever meeting,
and look at it ourselves. Sometimes it is a good thing to read word for word what people hm-c said c\"en better than having
someone bring it up at a meeting and blind siding us so that we afC really aware of what went on carlier.
MR BURKE: Madam Chair I really do "ani to get offUlis because wc "ill be here ail aftemoon.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I Uilnk werc done.
MR BURKE: Who decides stuff Iikc tlils Ulal comes in front of us at mcctings. Does someone just comc in and put
it on thc table?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I cmmot tcll you because I did not put it thcrc. The emailto me?
MR PETIY: Madam Chair Uils board, back when Mr. Burke was the chair, cmne to a policy decision tllat when
these things were emailed to the administrator's slaff they would be handed ont and if any board member wished to discuss it
they could bring it up l.Ulder their section of board member comments and committee member comments. It is there strictly
for information prnposes and is not an agenda item, bnt if any board member wishes to discuss this, they can certainly do so
under committee reports or comments.
MR BURKE: Madam Chair if I had emailed my summary points to Mary and asked thallhey be put on Ule table
why wonld they be treated any different than tltis? I guess thai is my point, that's where I am eomused. Because I am a
board member. what is the situation?
DR RAlA: Didn't we already explain that there was a misunderstanding mId if I eontribnted to that, I apologize.
What you wanted 10 do was perfectly fine to present. We are trying to find a simplified method and hopefully John can scan
the BCC minutes and let us know if there is something there that wc shonld be alerted to. I would nol belittle this letter that
came in after all it is to the president of the Pelican Bay Foundation from the President of the Pelican Bay Property Owners
Association. These are important people in our communily and il should be addressed and Ulcir Cotillnents should be
recognized.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Ted, may I inte'jeel here. Jim your qucstion is a good onc, bul your answer is right
here on that sheet from Heidi. She says "Jim she (and she means MalY) can hold the snrummy and distribnte it at tile Octobcr
meeting. It should nol be distributed with the agenda package. Although a one way communication is okay. lhe temptation
to respond is too great, I'd prefer iljust be distributed at the meeting". Did you give it to Mary to dislJibule?
MR. BURKE: No, but here's my point that's exactly the way I was tltinking in thc begi,ming and Witll ail this stuff
going back and forUI I forgot all about it
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CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: TIlere is your answer. it wasn't that you were dnmped on it's just that you didn't give
il to Mary and she couldn't disseminate somcthing she didn't have
MR. MOFFATT: I'd like to go back 10, since Mike raised Mr. Pelly's memo of September 11 'dowe have a copy of
the revised resolution yet? I've never seen that aud I would like to see that if I may.
MR. PETTY: Madam Chair I think your reqnest of providing that website to all the members should give that
infonnation so we will point all board members to the eurrenl stillus of all approved minutes or resolutions of the Board of
County Conunissioners so that you can peruse those as ,VOll have time.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: lfyou happen 10 know what section would be the most important for us to be paying
altenlionto that would be ever so helpful.
MR PETTY: I would not attempt Madam Chair to decide for any member of Ihis board what was important or not
important
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yon may want to just direct our attention to any specific passages on Clam Bay or
Pelican Bay.
MR. PETTY: Anything that I think is specific to the entire board will come to your attention by email or at the
meeting.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Jerry does that answer your coneern?
MR. MOFFA TI: Yes, just so it's only three pages I can read not three hundred and thirty.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Well you're in luck because they aelually do have an agenda and if you scroll down
their agenda carlyon in the website you can actually find where you might want to be locating items to pemse. Let's move
on.
RESIGNATIONS OF ED STAROS AND ROBERT PENDERGRASS
CHAJRWOMAN WOMBLE: We're sorry to hear from both the gentlemen, and Mr. Pendergrass is here today. and
it is good to see you as always, and we are sorry that you wilInot be with us on the board. But we know that you are working
with TIle Foundation and that is a very viable and valuable position so thank you for that Mr. Staros is, as you all know, the
manager of the Ritz Carlton ,md regrettably he's stepping down. He wiII be more comfortable with giving us his input from
the sidelines but he is \\illing to be very valuable in all),vay he can and give liS any information he has and he would be very
happy to come and be at a meeting if he could offer any infol1lUltion or insight into anything thaI is going on. So I appreciate
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Pelican Buy Sen'ices Oh'ision Meeting
October 1, 2008
16 I lA't
that from Mr. Staros and realize that he has issues ami means to do well and cannot be on the board with us at this point.
Thank you to both of those gentlemen for their tilUe and efforts ;:md w(: h3\-c now two positions available.
NtR. PETTY: We have been 1n contact with the County's office on these issues to make sure we arc following
procedure. On the resignation of Mr. Pendergrass it emne af'ier our last solicitation for interested participants. The Connty
has re-advertised and has asked again for anybody that IS interested in the positions. That is still opeo, that will not close till
later on October.
MR. BURKE: It closes tomorrow
MR. PETTY: At which time we will get the list and bring it back to you at the ne~1meeting for YOl1f consideration
so that you can give a recolllmendation back to the commissioners,
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Is that correct that tomorrow is the dcadhne?
MR PETTY: Mary is trying to give me the answer mId she says yes. I had not fonnd out what day it was bnt knew
it was not available today so it will be brought to you at your next meeting for consideration. Mr. Stams position is good
through December his resignation is cffcctiv-e in December, \vhich is ,,,,hen YOll would now quali(v for the election in Pelican
Bay, Mr. Staros position would be up during that election. We have talked to the Connty and they have suggested and we
agree, that the best way to effect that is to leI it go through the balloting process let those people qualify otherwise you would
be putting someone np there for a mere 30.{iO day time period at best. So, that resignation due in December wonld give
people from the commercial m'ea time to submit their name. be considered mId go tlrrough the vote process.
MR BURKE: Madam Chair. me vou done John')
MR PETTY: t can be.
MR. BURKE: I disagree with that wholly. I've been throngh a muuber of elections and it is very difficult to get
meaningful, residential eimdidates for tllese slots, We've been fortunate to have Ed Stmos fTOm tile Ritz and AruIcUe from
Waterside. Now that will have to be advertised, but we have a candidate already who has talked to Ed Slaros and has
volunteered to come in and that is Hunter H~msen from the Grande. Let me tell you something it doesn't get any better than
that for a candidatc.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: No, I agree, however I think you arc missing the point that Mr. Petty was trying to
make. That would put him in place nntil December, is that right Jolm?
MR. BURKE: No, it would put him in place ,mtilthe end of March.
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October I. 2008
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MR PETTY: Madam Chair the County Commissioners wonkl have 10 gcl our recommenmltion, consider it
approve it and then that person would be in that office for 30-60 days tops from Ihat approval process, Until that time Mr.
Staros is still a member of the board since his resignation is not effective until December. if you would like to consider an
alternative or you think thaI 30.{;0 days has Ihat type of a value is certainly something that you can consider. But it would be
dependent upon the County Commissioners accepting Ihe recommendation,
MR BURKE: I'd say if Ed Stams has submilled a leller of resignation it's officiallhc day we received it Why
would he wanl to make it official in December. he can't make the meetings. so as far as I'm concerned it's officiaL So let's
gel a hold of Sue Filson and advertise Ihe thing and we cml get Hunter on the board here for tile December mceting.
MR LEVY: [s he the manager?
MR BURKE: He is the general manger of the Grande.
MR LEVY: So Ihere would be notlliug stopping him if he was appointed from mnning again.
MR BURKE: Exactly, he can nUl again. We've been lucky the last couple years having the Ritz and the Waterside
on our board and wc would be equally as luek'y to have the Grandc. We have had some bad experiences with commercial
people but those Ihree organi7ations have a huge stake in Pelicml Bay. They are big contributors to the coffers of The
Foundation.
MR BOLAND: I have a qucstion for I gucss Jolm Pelly. Whose lerm are tlleY going to fill? In other words there
wcre three resignations. Coleman, John Domenie mld now I guess it's official Pendergrass is oul. So two of them come out
in 20 ItI and one in OY who appoiuts who to what? Is Umt Ule Collier COIUlly Commissioners or tlus board? Who does what?
All they stated is that we have Iwo new members but they never said Mr. Moffall is replacing Coleman or Mr. Moffatt is
replacing Mr. Domenie or who he is replacing.
MR MOFFATT: It says on here Ulat I'm 010 mld Gibson is 09. It also says Staros is 010,
MR BOLAND: So then Mr. Gibson is replacing Mr. Domenic and Mr. Moffat replacing Coleman.
MS. MCCAUGHTRY: Excuse me the BCC did that and sent a lellcr to the new mcmbers congratulating them and
telling them what their tcnn was and sent a copy to us al Ille office.
MR BOLAND: They didn't send a copy to the board thongh. I though! it would be a courtesy tlung that they do.
MS. MCCAUGHTRY: I hm'e copies at Ille office.
MR. PETrY: That is something that we would do at onr update of your sheet of who is on the board.
MR. MOFFATT: TIus one says AIUlctte Ala,arez is the one who gocs in March and Ed Stams till 010.
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Pelican Bay Services Division Mt't.1ing
October 1. 2008
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MR. BURKE: Another year okay. I say we go ahead. let's get Hunter Hanscu on this board and we need to start
having meetings where we hm-e 10 or 11 members not six maybe seven members.
DR. RAIA: John can you clarify this resignation effective as of December. I mean thars a legal problem and tllat
has to be clarified. So, ifMr. Hansen still wants to Join us after silling through an I and 15 miuutes of this meetiug I think we
beller grab him before he walks out tile room.
MR. BURKE: Yes. don't let him out tile room. He was here checking the dynamics.
MR PETTY: Madam Chair. we as well as tile board agree tllis is s nice asset for the board and we should capture it
as soon as possible. but we do hay'e a procedure issue. We would have to reqnest from the Commissioners that permission to
remove Mr. Staros early and to appoint Mr. Hansen so it is something that we can request of the Commissioners to consider
and we can go through Sue Filsou who we have already contacted for the procedure we have already laid ont for you. But we
certainly can request an agenda item to see if tlley will consider the maller.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Have you discussed anything along these lines is he planning on coming to any of
our board meetings until December?
MR PETTY: Mr. Staros IlllS not replied to tllat issue. whether or not he can make the board meetings through
December. I have not been able to talk to him since he sent the teHer to know what meetings he can or cannot make.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I think that is step one. Find out whatllis intentions arc.
MR BURKE: I would suggest staff contact Mr. Staros tell him to amend the resignation letter aud make it effective
immediately aud have Sue Filson advertise the job and then.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: And that we recommend Mr. Hansen.
MR PETTY: Madam Chair that would be beyond my scope to ask a board member to resign early or late. I would
ask that you not put me in that position where I am trying to get him Ollt the door quicker I can certainly bring to him the
boards discussions for llis consideration if tllat is what YOIl would like me to do.
MR IAIZZO: Do so.
MR. PETTY: Butt would need the board to give me t1lat direction.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I would like to know his meanings in 1Ilat kind of situation. Why he chose
December? That is tIDusual so it sounded to me like he really wanted to have some input more than he might have.
MR MOFFATT: Or, his fillal pay check.
DR. RAtA: Let's hear from Mr. Hanseu.
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Pelican Bay Senices Dhision Meeting
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CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Mr. Hansen, please move to the microphone.
MR HANSEN: Ed Staros called me a week or so ago and told me that due to personal reasons, personal eonnict of
his time and his personal life that he \vas mnning out of time with too many things to do. ( ,,,,"ould be more than happy to
call Ed and ask him if lIe would prefer to resign immediately or delay his resignation. My guess is after our conversations
here he will prefer to resign innnediatcly. I don't know that for a fact.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: That is my guess also and if yon feci comfortable doing tI13t I am going to appoint
you as our liaison and could you please contact Mr. Pelly and let him know how that is handled
MR HANSEN: Yes, I will.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: And, Jolm would you contact me and let me know what the proper procedure at that
point wonld be?
MR PETTY: Absolutely and we will contact Ihe County to make sure tI13t they can gel us on the agenda for
consideratioll.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay are there 'my other lines of discussion on this particular issue. Anybody on the
board have something tIley wouid like to ask or discuss? So, you are all in favor of going forward. Okay good. Mr. Petty I
appreciate tI13t and tI13nks to our new liaison, dlank yon..
INDEPENDENT. DEPENDENT COMMUNITIES
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Moving right along you've got dIe infonll3tion for us about dependent, independent
and CDD commmtities,
MR. PETIY: Madron Chair we have put together a small, very quick presenkotion based on dIe request from a
board member on what arc our options. We are currently a division of Comer Connty. Pelican Bay Services Division by
definition is a municipal special benefit mtit of taxation an MSTBU. Now that is not an independent district we have no legal
standing, we are an advisory group widl benefits giving our rec<lmmendations to die BCe The questions was is there life
after this entity. is dlere rol upgrade to this that would give us a modicum of more control if I remember the question
correctly, And, yes there is, dIe ne"1 step np is a dependent district. These are dependent 011 dIe forms of local government
dlat create them and tile fonns of local govemment are mnnieipal or county. In our case it wonld be a county, Collier
County actually gave us this status in JrollJary of 200 I and it was at the resideuts request before the SlUmner of 200 I was over.
At issue were seveml items and one was that this dependent district had been established by tile County with a 2 mil ad
valorum tax capability and currently as you all know we are basically a 1/2 mil or less for street lights so the 2 mil represented
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October 1. 2008
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quite a bit of an increase abilit) and the residents were concerned.
To my knowledgc we haven't altempted to get to
dcpendent district sincc and wc would havc to go throngh the Connty to become a dcpcndent district They are created by
ordinance and the ordinance must include your functionality, purpose, po\vers, duties, geographic boundaries and what was
your anthority. Now if you are a dependent district you will haw the right to hold propel1y in title; you will have a legal
position, which wc currently do not have. The issue of dependeucy is classified by DCA (DcpL of Commmtity Affairs) as
your establishing local govenmleut, the County would control either your board and/or your budget The board through
appointment and your budgct through vcto eitllCr one of those two or both and you are considcred a dependent district in the
State by the DCA. You also have to say why a district is the best altcmativc. A membership; the organization;
compensation, if any; administrativc units; you describe what tllis entity is and how it's going to work and what it's goiug to
do and that has to be done all in agreement with the County who will be the one enabling you. Then what reporting
requirements will be required in particular financing, since you are a dependcnt district the finances will be part of the
County's Comprehensive Annual Financial Report requirements and tlley may have other requirements as well since tlley can
define that in your enabling lcgislation. How are you going to get your 1II0ney and from what area and then you must be in
compliance and not in conllict with the locally approved comprehensive plan. That's a dcpendcnt district
MR. BURKE: John, what are the advantages of being a dependent district?
MR. PETTY: That depends on your point of view sir, you can have legal title; you have a morc pronounced sense
of being; you have responsibilities that you are held responsible for; and you controL
MR. BURKE: Are tllerc any dependent districts in Collier Count,?
MR PErry: I haven't taken a statns but there arc approximately 800 dependent districts in the State of Florida.
DR RAIA: John. for instance properly docs that include all the vehicles and equipmcnt?
MR. PETTY: All tlJat is defincd in tile establishment of tile dependent district It can include it but it doesn't have
to. You can define each and every asset if you like. In 2tKlI when we were created all property including the utility site; all
the common areas; all tile areas ne:\.1 to tile lakcs; all of that was considered for tmnsfer It's a rather lengthy and extensive
proccss that we have on record from 20tH but it is dependent npon what you wish to agree to. So it is very easy to change it
or modify it based on what you desire as long as thc County is in acceptance of it because thcy arc the ones that would
empower you.
MR. BURKE: Would it make sense to have reasons to want to do it, what are the advantages to it?
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Pelican Bay Services Dhision Meetin~
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16 J 1 #1
MR PETTY: I'm sorry, but the adv<-Ultages to it wasn '. really part of 1l1) show today because I am just giving a
short presentation on special districts as asked pro and COil.
MR. LEVY: Would wc still pay the samc taxes and the same to the County and the same amount to the MSTBU as
now?
MR PETTY: At least that amount possibly more because dependent districts typically have increased
responsibilities from the MSTBU, which also docs a special assessment now so if you have increased responsibilities it is
probable your cost may go up a tad.
MR. LEVY: Would we still have to pay the same taxes to the Counly we wouldld get any relief from that?
MR. PETTY: Unless you negotiated that Witll the Comity on formation and in defining what your financing would
be if you could negotiate with tile ComIty to share revenue you may be paying less. But thaCs a negotiation standard with
dependent districts typically you do not gel revenue sharing.
MR. IAlZZO: We've approached the county and they said forget it
MR. PETTY: Anything can happen have a little laitll. It is possible that if the roads were transferred from the
County to the dependent district they could become private, yes thai'S a possibility. Again tllese are not probabilities they are
possibilities. The issue here is they would have to be very workable with the comprehensive plan the County has and with
the County' s current politiedl position you will have to be in syuc with because you are going to be empowered by tile
County there is no right of petitiou in a dependent district The only one tlmt can empower you is the County and if they see
it as tile best answer.
MR BOLAND: Right now we have the taxing authority by the MSTBU to tax people in Pelican Bay for
community improvements for landscaping. tile street lighting and clam bav.
MR. PETTY: Actually sir technically the answer is no. tile answer is no. The autllority to tax and assess is the
County's we just advise t1lem.
MR. BOLAND: Yes, all right, we recommend it, I am sorry.
MR PETTY: As a dependent district you would actually have thai authority if it was granted in your powers.
MR. BOLAND: We arc an ad,'isory committee not a board.
MR PETry: And under a dependent district your vote would actually count and it would be the fiual word.
DR. RAIA: John. what happens to your position in a dependent district?
MR PETrY: Hopefully it gets paid more.
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Pelican Bay Sen'ices Di\'ision Meeting
October 1, 2008
DR. RA[A: But, who do you answer too?
MR PETTY: I would still answer to the board as I currenlly answer here to llle board with limitations should the
County take some of our duties away. But untilllren I take direction from the board.
DR RAIA: On IIle organizational chart right now you fall under llle county manager. Would IIml remain lire same"
MR PETTY: No sir, the organization chari reflects a prior condition before Mr. Carroll when he was IIle chair had
the ordinance changed aud in the ordimmcc it has the administrator reporting directly '0 the board versus malmger. In all
prior years before tlmt it was the administrator reported directly to the County Manager. So I report to this board what I can't
do is I can't go around the County Manager taking a responsibility from this board and assigning it to another group, which
was the case when Clam Bay was asked to be put on hold.
DR RAIA: Could that still happen UIlder a dependent district?
MR PETTY: Not by procedure, again thc County would control appointment to the board and/or of the budget so
they could control after IIle fact by replacing the board will] a more sympathetic board, which may change it back or by
vetoing a budget so you would not have funding to go further. But they would not ]mvc the aulllOrity to override your vote
on the issue. The next type of a district is not a dependent district it is a s[J<-'Cia] taxing district They are improvement
districts, hospital districts, fue control districts all kinds of districts in the State of Florida. TIlcse are independent and
chapter] 89 is basically the uniform administrator procedures basically geueral conditions for all districts. In chapter 189 you
get basic criteria for how these entities Call be established or created. In our situation since we are greater than 1,000 acres
we would be established by the govemor's office which is the a<\iudicatory coutrol board, which is the govemor's cabin. [n
]89 it can't be created by local govemmenl or the governor or cabinet unless it is prohibited from doing so by genera] law.
Only the legislature can create a special independent taxing district So if the legislature is the only one that can create it why
did I just say local government can do it? Well, local government can do it under certain conditions. They can do a 190
district; a hospital district; and they can do a fel\' other types of districts.
DR RAIA: We were once one, Wasn't the Pelican Bav Independent District one oflllOse?
MR PETTY: That was created by the Governor's Cabinet TIle County can create an independent special district,
which must be established by charter, in accord,mce with statute 115: 154: 155 or ]90. Now, 115, 154, and 155 have to do
with hospital and child related special taxing districts, something we are not looking for. The only way for the COllnty to
create a district that we could possibly consider is a 190 district a community development district, which is an independent
district will] uniform district code.
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Pelican Bay Services Dh'ision Meeting
October 1. 2008
1611A-9
MR BURKE: Pelican Marsh.
MR PETTY: Thc Governor 'lid Cabinet would do so again through chaptcr IYO or another. Now, I say chapter
190 or another be-cause ,,,hen the legislature considers creating an independent taxing district they are not limited by these
rules. It would require a special bill for you 10 go before the legislature for such consideration if il didn't follow these
existing statutes for these specific types of districts. If you had something new in mind or if you didn't Ihink you could fit in
the other boxes, you would have to submit what is called a special bill and in that spccial bill YOIl could ask for very specific
very unique only concerning you type of structure. For the legislature to consider such a bill yon would nccd political
support and that usually would mean thM you would have to be working vel)' well with Connty as well. So empowerment in
this regard wonld typically require Counly support. And if YOIl are not following whaldle other special districts have done
this would be handled on a case by case basis and your degree of success is iffy at best. Because there are quite a few
districts in Florida they basically say try 10 fit into one of those boxes. But, we wanted 10 give you everything in Chapter
189. So we basically fall down to this. We can ask tIle County to establish a depeudent district to enable ns 10 have a little
bil higher of degree a modicum of control. If we eonld work dlat with the County to bolh of our interesl we can petition the
Governor's office to establish a special district which wonld probably be met with a considerable negative response. Not
only from local politicians but State politicians because you would set precedence that would be uuusual. It is basically like
trying to secede from the Union, So I don't know that I give that much ofa chance so if you follow the standards you would
then go 10 a 190 CDD. These independent districts are very nice districls, d.ey arc very responsive, the difference between
Il.em and local govermnent is nollting, they are local government but they are special purpose local govenunenl versus
general-purpose local government, cities and connties are general pnIpOse. Anything having to do with their structure they
can address. Special purpose districts can only consider those matters that arc part of their structure, water, sewer, waler
management. strcct lights, things of Il.at nature and Ilmt is all done at Il.e time of your establishment. Yon can change it by
going to the legislature and ask them to accept a clk'lnge or an addition but there are only about 14 different services that you
can consider. You could never go to Il\e general pnrpose you can't evolve to the general pnrpose slage will.ont going IllrOugh
incorporation proceedings. So it is special purpose govenunenl that can do special services, which is something we should
understand since tbat is how we operate too. Irs over 1.000 acres so it has to go the Florida Land and Water A(ljudicatory
Commission. If we send them a petition asking to establish a community development district they wouldn'l give us a
response. Whal would be required though is not only the petitioll bnt what the petitioll has to contain, is a description, you
need d.e written cousenl to dIe establishinent of the districI by all landowners whose property is located within. You need
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Pelican Bay Services Dilision Meeting
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100%, it's not going to happen. Whal's going to happen is you would end up with a petitiou for a 190 districts \lith all these
hUle chcck boxes oul of it from people who didn't wanl to join. It isn't really a workable solution. So whcn it comes to a
special taxing district you probably are not going to get to far other tllan through the County and possibly for a dependent
district standpoint The question was asked 'how do wc gel rid of Ihe nllUlicipal lax overload thai the County has on all
unincorporated areas'. I think currently it is al .82 - .84 mils per year sometlring like that and tile County does that to provide
municipal services to all areas tllat are not incorporated. Well that's on top of whM we charge ourselves in our special
assessment and wc havc asked many times under '''''lily different chairs for the last 3 years, I remember Chris Supton had a
big issuc and we talked 10 the Coullly about what we call fair sllare revcnue. That wc were paying way above what was
required and ifwc wcre buying any municipal services we couldn't see any of them and iflhey could show tltemto us greal if
not can we talk about some Ihat we would like to put it, like we would like to see the pathway improved and maybe you
could spend some of our money there. CurrenHy you are taxed about $6 million a year. The County gets $6 million a year
through the MSTBU and that's where we get approximately $200,000 - $250,000 a year back. for the last 5 to 10 years, for
Clam Bay. So the money that comes back is typically out of thai same fund. And tlleY asked tlle question though could you
please define how we can get out from under that muuicipal scrviccs taxing lUlit and the only way is if you become a form of
general-purpose government yourselves through incorporation. And again this will be adopted by a special act of the
legislature similar to the petition process and again you would need the acceptance if uol the support of the County in this
process. The legislaturc is going to look for local issues that haven't been addressed tlley don't want to be held accountable
for starting a fight in a local comnlllUity. So they ask those questious when you petitiou for incorporation, have you worked
with the County to make sure the transition of seIViees would be done as seemlishly as possible. All these conditions and all
these special districts therc arc all these consideralions we would need to work hand in hand with thc County as we try to do
day to day. Any questions'!
MR BOLAND'. If we incorporated and became a city would the county still own Clam Bay?
MR PETTY: Madam Chair the question was the theoretical question about ownership of current government
property. Would tlle property transfer in title to a new government entity. TIle answer is unknown because it eau be
negotiated, but typically what happens as you become in power and you become a municipality you have home rule
authority. So if the property was used for your community and not a regional facility then it should fall to you because you
have home rule powers. I think it's Statute 362 that defines municipalities, counties and trausfers upon creation. I can't tell
you if tltis facility would transfer over or noL ! can tell you tlrat in tltis whole discussion of special districls whether tlley be
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1611ftCf
dependent, independent or dIe establishment of a mnnicipality that you are going to have to do so in good faith and with a
good professional working relationship with tile County.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Thank you lolut Anybody have auy qucstions'!
RMA PROPOSAL FOR SURFACE WATER UTILIZATION PLAN AND PERMITTING
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right about the RMA proposal for Surface Water plan that has been suggested.
MR PETrY: Madam Chair. for two meetings now we have brought up under our report considerations of working
with tile golf course on the water table within Pelican Bay. As this board is aware the golf course was looking at doing a
deep well. storing water in tile deep well to provide them witll irrigation relief during the dry period. After going about half
way through it tlley were given the bad news that DEP was not going to allow tile storing of cflluent without tile effiuent
waters meeting potable water standards, which the County is uot capable of meeting at this time.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: As I understand it they had to pull one of their own ASR wells.
MR. PETTY: 11lere's a lot of communities oul there that are hit by this new DEP hard and fast rule tlllIt are
scratching their heads wondering how you could possibly comply. If you had potable water why would you send it down
into a deep well to begin with? In discussions with the golf course on the need for water the division has beeu looking at
ways of bettering the water management system constantly for a number of years and we have always looked at anything that
could keep the water table high or higher during tile dry season as being a benefit We looked at any way of keeping rain
water, storm water. or any water that typically went over our boards and into Clam Bay as a possible irrigation use during the
winter as a good tiling. Any way that we conld bring water into Pelican Bay during the dry season 10 increase the water table
either through irrigation or through direct input into the lakes holds back salt water intrusion and it does some great tllings for
our landscaping SO we are all for it, trying to keep tile water table np during the dry season. There is a possibility that a
looped system, which means that water could be captured within Pelican Bay by the storm water system, stored and then
utilized during the dry season in a repetitious manner. That is we collect 5,OOOJ)OO gallons we use about 1,500,000 during
tile night here in all of Pelican Bay and if you count tile golf course say about 2 all total. If we collected 5,000.000 gallons
we could put it in storage and two would go out and if it's a e10sed loop system what it means is before it goes through the
weir or through tile grOlmd water table. we would capture it near tile berm and put it back at the head waters so that it would
be available to us for the next night and the next and the nex1 and the next Now a closed loop system tries to capture 100%
which isn't very practical when you are talking about sand underneath your feel so you have to do a calculation ou how much
can you capture in a closed loop system and how much will escape. We're lucky in Pelican Bay we have a geological
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Pelican Bay Services Dhision Meeting
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16 j 1 ~
fornUltion with the Tamianu Ridge, wluch is highwa} US 11 that causes a bump between us and the other part of the
Tamiami Aquifer. which gives us a way to stop water from leaking backwards. ]f we can contain it within our ,vater
management system, which we are optimistic 11mt we can, we may have a way of providing Pelican B3)' with additional
irrigation. With the golf course secking to do this "e thought we would jump on board and get some cheap engineering fees,
why spend two separate project monies doing it independently whcn we can possibly get together and partner. So Mr. Burke
is working witll tile golf course and asked sta!'fifthere was any1hing we could do if we could talk to them and wc started that
conversahon and we becamc vcry excitcd about the possibilities and tile potenhal. We talked ",th their staff and their
engineering people and you have before you, not for consideration, but for ballpark number cflmching this is about what
would be our cost if we were to get our engineer involved and working on these issues and partner up with the golf coursc..
Basically it would eost us in tile range of about $28,000.00 to ac"umulate the information necessary to determine what the
degree of benefit was and what tile practicality oUhis program would be. So we put in your packages for your infornUltion,
we are not asking for any movement today. staff will be glad to move forward as long as it still meets with tile conceptual
approval of the board and unless we get a negative indicatiou we would move forward ,md at our next or tile one thereafter
we would lUlve a proposal, which you could act upon from an engineer that we are approved to nse.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: It seems a legitimate concern as water is porous and 1 don't see any reason for you
not to go forward. Dlat doesn't make sense to me when we have already got. and I anl looking at Dan Aquaviva. and he is
already working in Pelican Bay. For the good of tile people of Pelican Bay I think a partnership wonld be extremely
beneficial all tile way aronnd because thc golf course does utilize a lot of water and it would be beneficial to all of us to
continue using that water over and over and over again as much as we possibly can T'dther than loosing it
DR RAlA: John, but the golf course as far as [ know has a separate contract with the Couuty for effluent watcr and
they obviously pay for tJIat and tlm!'s water tlIatjust goes to tile golf course and doesn't go to tJle rest of Pelican Bay. [s there
going to be water H,at is goiug to be shared betweeu Pelican Bay and the golf comse?
MR PETTY: No sir. let me first go to your first statcment, which is whatever tile golf course gets isu't shared by
Pelican Bay. It is shared as irrigation water because everybody in Pelican Bay gcts tlleir owu irrigation from the County and
the golf course has a separate contract. We are retail customers, they are bulk customers. But once the water hils the ground
it's in the Pelican Bay water shcd and it does benefit Pelican Bay by keeping that water table up higher. All the watcr that we
import from off site puts a bubble underneath Pelican Bay that benefits Pelican Bay and that's really what were talking about
doing is iucreasiug what we can put into that bubble. Wlmtever wc can put out in Pelican Bay during the dry season is
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Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
Octobel' 1, 2008
1611A-'1
beneficial to salt waler intrusion control: 10 deep rooled large plants or trees and large bnshes. during dry periods. We could
not nse captnred rainfall though for the residents of Pelican Bay because we do not have a way of distributing it to the
residents. The residcnls gctlheir water directly from the Counl)' We no long have pumping facilities on site so we can't
enter the line. The golf course though takes water from a separate area at the golf course and a fe,,,, other areas that they can
use al their pump house if tllCY have a suction line to an acceptable source so we could get walcr to them. Siuce they are built
laterally along the length of Pelican Bay whatever they use for irrigation would hit that grOlmd waler table and add to that
bubble. We tllink they are a fine disbursing tool for keeping the water table up higl~ as much as possible. We would capture
it on the down stream side nexl to the benn and push it back to storage where it could be utilized again and again and again.
The key here is what South Florida will accept as our percentage of a closed loop system and how practical it would be if we
would need to do that preliminary work to find out. D,U! Aquaviva's proposal is closc to what we would describe. We would
have it more focused on the closed loop than the water irrigation rights as it is currently written, but that price is very close to
what we would be looking at as well. I have had otller board members ask me what is the ultimate cost should we find
benefit Well that would be part of the analysis of course, but it is fair to say that the cost for storing these 5-10 million
gallons which is probably about where we want to be is going to be somewhere between $5 and $7 million.
DR RAJA: Now that's tIlC thing that I am interested in. How is that going to be shared t1lat cost?
MR. PETTY: We llave no determimtion on who does what cost. but the assumption here is if the golf course can
llave additional water Illat whatever fee they arc paying for llaviug water broughlto them is something thai we could discuss
to sec if there was auy type offecs that we could charge them for the use of the water on a per t ,000 gallon hasis. It conld be
that their operating costs are so high that Illey cau't afford to add mly1hing more to it. So Ihat is all part of the benefil analysis
that would go along with Illc engineer.
MR. IAlZZO: It sounds like we are almost subsidizing The Club.
MR BURKE: Madmn Cllair maybe we can get Illis into some kind of language we can all understand. but my
uuderstanding is that The Club, the final retention pond before the water goes under Pelican Bay Blvd. and into Ille bernI, is
clocking about 800.00 - 1,000,000 of water a day that's flowing over 10 the benD. That would fit what you heard')
MR. PETTY: Madam Chair. it isn't going t1lfough the waler management syslem bul Mr. Burke is very close 10
what I have heard reported by hydrologist on how Illuch fresh water is going tllfough the ground water aquifer up to elmn
Bay below the bem!.
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Pelican Bay Sen'ices Division Meeting
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16 J IIf4
MR BURKE: I'm talking about Ihe final retention pond at The Club where all the water finally accumulates then
goes nnder Pelican Bay Blvd. ,md enters the east berm, tlmt's where all tllis 'tarted ok and illooks like its, and I don'l know
what time of year it is but it looks like its gOO,OOO - 1,000,(100 million gallons a day are going out of there into the east berm
and what tlleY wanl to do is take some of that water ,md plllnp il over to tlleir irrigation pond ,md tIm! wonld supplement tIlere
needs and tlley are self conulined and they could go ahead and do tI13t and build up their irrigation pond. Kyle isn't that
abont right, isn't tl131 whalthey are Ihinking?
MR LUKASZ: I don't believe there is that kind of water in tlle time of the ycar that they wonld need it, in the dry
season.
MR BURKE: WelL they may have more information than we do on tlmt and I don't want to speak out of turn. It is
my understanding and Aquaviva is the engineer over tllere working with them. That is aU I gleam from this so what you are
saying I gness is if tl13t were done if some of tl13t gOO,OOO - L01~).(~)O million gallons a day was diverted to irrigation we
could take part in that Is that what you are saying?
MR PETTY: No sir. The 800,OO-I,UOO,Ouu gallons a day is part of a study done years ago, I think it was aronnd 99
or 98 tI13t Wilson Miller participated in and the golf course was looking to harvest what they could when it mined and water
was discharging over the boards of the benu and they were allowed a horizontal pump iu a lake that was outside of our water
management system and tIley were allowed to capture a vel} small difference in head, which means if tile lake is 3 Yo ft.
above sea level tlley can get any amonnt of water that exist between 3 Y2 and 4. TImt was their eapture. Now they like to get
water even whcn it rains because of the sandy soil and the sugar sand \ve have on the northcl11 end particularly at the golf
course. If it rained tl13t morning by afternoon everything is starting to dl}' up. They asked for this we worked with them back
in 99 or 98 wilh our engineers at the time and worked with them 10 capture that very small amount and harvesting tI131 very
small amonnt WitI, no long tenn storage capability. Now wl13t were talking is long tenn storage capability to harvest any
"vater lhat may go over tbe boards in excess of what we want to retain into our system by design. 11\is would be water that
would be wasted over Ihe boards and ant into tlle bay and nttinmtely ant into the ocean. We would capture a certain amount
of that, we're tlrinking some where arolllld 5 - 10 million gallons.
DR. RAIA: Is that per day, per week, per year. TI13t figure you are giving us.
MR PETIT: How long would it take to capture it or how long will it last?
MR. BURKE: Am l going to get that in 24 hours, a week or how long will it take to do that?
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Pelican Bay Services Division Meetin2
October 1. 2008
16 I 1 fiR
MR. PETTY: An cxample \Vould bc that you could get that in one rainfall evcut You just had a very nice rainfall
event a couple of days ago basically i1lcrc is cnough watcr for you to capturc that in one or two days.
MR. BURKE: And where would I capture it?
MR. PErry: You would capture it from our \Vater management systC1ll.
MR. BURKE: Our retention ponds?
MR. PErry: Our lakes, they are all retention of some type.
MR. BURKE: We would pump it into what?
MR. PErry: I couldn't say sir. i1mt's part of i1le euginecriug \Vhether or not wc \Vould do that into open storagc
with possible anti cvaporation covers like you put in pools or wheiller it would be closed storage. The pricc I gave you of $5-
$7 million anticipates concrete closed storage facilities.
MR. IAIZZO: John i1mt kind of money is vcry scary whcn all i1.ese ycars \Ve've managed. And all of a snddcn we
need to spend i1lat kind of money that seems like we're supporting The Club it doesn't seem right that we should go to the
residents.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: John, what kind of money arc yon talking about that $28,000.00'1
MR.IAIZZO: No, wcrc talking $5-7 million and I don't know that it's sometbing we shonld be entertaining at this
point
MR. PRETTY: Madam Chair, it certainly is worth considering the smaller investment compared to the possible
investment in tbe future. But I can't say that i1lere is any data that iudicates i1mt wc would bc subsidiziug the golf course. I
Imve no intenlion of doing that or pulling i1le division in Ilmt position. The intent here was to evaluate whether our water
management system could be improved upon, which is something this board has askcd for on scveral occasions one of the
reasons wby we bave bubblers oul there now trying 10 increase our nutrient loading rednction capability. So $28,000 is wbat
it would take for us to get the data that would say what the bencHl was: what value it may have~ and then maybe some
consideration on is there some revenue source other Olan our o\vn assessments that could pay for it. I don't have those
answers today.
MR IAIZZO: TIle $28.450 is an estimate it's not a real number.
MR. PETYY: Yes sir it is.
MR. IAIZZO: If you look at #9 it says prepare the report detailing feasibility and increase nse of surface water at
i1le Pelican Bay development TImt's a wbat if, iI's not. you know, feasibility is a what if of increased use, i1lat dollar value is
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Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
October 1. 2008
1611 #1
just a possibility of the cost, it's not a hard cost. You'rc over $30,000 bracket cost just for a study let's look beyoud that let's
say we have a plan that captures surface water were grabbing all that surface water and storing it Can \VC cut 11131 off at some
point? Is there a cut off automatically that says I don't need any more surface water.
MR PETTY: Sure, that could be done automatically manually whate"er way you prefer.
MR IAIZZO: The other thing that robs me is on the east benn. the tram east benn on days I see that tiring low, real
low, and if you're capturing surface water we've got to even get the water to where it has to go. We nced to develop that
water in tllat east berm so it flows into tile west side of the benn to mix \Vitll tI1e salt water, we actually need tllat and we may
be cuttiug that back a bit.
MR PETTY: No sir, tile intent is that yon would only harvest surplus water that wonld be going over tile boards
not water that would be going into tile soiL
MR IAIZZO: We're capturing tllC water right at tile east berm then')
MR PETTY: It would be controlled. In otl1er words how the engineering would be I can't tell you because we are
asking an engineer to come np with that concept. I anI not a design engineer, but I can certainly give you a cmde coucept.
You wonld put a pmnp east of tile benn when the water went above the wooden control structure tI1e pump could be turned
on. When it got down to the top of the wood boards it would be turned off You only capture it if there is excess water
available. It is a fairly simple concept.
MR IAlZZO: I know, if you're tlying to capture tI1e overflow tI1at's infrequent it really is not enough. You're not
getting enough water to capture aud to spend all that money on captnred water that overflows the set of tllOse boards.
MR PETTY: It only has to happen once or twice a year. And tile 5- 10 million gallons is capture able but tI1en
again that is why we are looking for tile engineering work to be done.
MR IAlZZO: I can't support tlmt.
MR. PETTY: Madam Chair. we are not puttiug anything out for a fee at this time and if you do decide to go
fonvard we would ask for a proposal from one of the approved engineers on tile County's list Currently, that would be
AB&B or Wilson Miller or Hole Montes who would submit a proposal at no cost to you for you to consider and if you wish
to go fonvard we would expect them to provide it for a ball park figure close to what Mr. Aqmviva has presented. This is
basically Mr. Aquaviva providing us with an analysis, free of charge, of what it should cost by doing it froml1is company.
7604
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.or.,
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Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
October 1. 2008
We cannol award his comp,my withoul going Uuough eWlCr approved contractor list of the County or RFP process. We arc
nol asking yon to do so.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE 1 think at this point ii's important that we Ihink abonl down the line, like you were
saying 101m. Waler is and will remain a very large and heavy lopic for Pelican Bav. And in thc futurc if yon're Ihinking
seriously about going into incorporation, dependent, independen, COO, whalever yon're thinking about. if there should be a
time in which you wonld wanl to work with Ihe County and choose a different form of goverrullenl we still have an issne of
waler I think what we arc trying 10 do is be considerale consumers find a way 10 utilize any type of available lechnology to
eouserve the water thai we have available 10 us and to look forward to Ihe future. Or maybe workiug toward having the water
we may need as a community. Now I may be wroug, bUllhat is where I am seeing us headed, In lenns of trying to be as
green as we can be as a communily and as comfortable citizens working in the COlmty and with each other and this would be
an inexpensive way to find out what is available out there and what could possibly be in our future. A way to conserve water
and utilize it over and over. Is thai a fair assessmenl of what we'rc looking ai"
MR PETrY: Yes, Madam Chair.
DR RAIA: This figure is our share of thc total engineering cosl or is i1lis i1le total eugineering cost and we are
going to pay a portion of this?
MR PErry: No sir i1Iis would be our share this is how we are coming up with i1mt rough estinm!e.
DR RAIA: Okay, then the clnb is paying X number of dollars also.
MR PErry: They are going to be involved more in the nsage erileri'L wlIieh is going to include their own eost,
their own sprinklers and how to eonneel to the system, etc.
MR BURKE: Madam Clmir, here again I can't speak for TIle Club but I don't think TIle Club is askiug anyone to
subsidize them for anything. TIle Club found out in Ihe last retention pond a rough average of how much waler a day is
"goiug over the boards". They know there is a possibility of taking some ofthat and pumpiug it over to their irrigalion poud.
And I think on their own i1ley can go ahead and get Ihe pernIits and approval to do i1ill, I may be wrong there, bnt I think that
Jolm and Kyle simply in their relatiouslIip with Bob over Ihere have seen Ole possibility of a joint opportunity. The Club may
very well want 10 piggyback on this study I don't know. The question I have, let's see if anybndy can answer it There are
water restrictions, whether it is effluent or not and The Club has their restrielions. They get 51l0,OOO gallons a day to buy and
I'm sure we have restrictions. But if we say, hey look we know what the restrictions are ,md we are sitting on 7,000,000
gallons of our mm we're going to irrigate one more night a week
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Pelican Bay Sen'ices Division Meeting
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#1
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: We arc already there I believe. Don't we have the possibility of having another day
or whatever days we wanL Innderstood we do? The golf course is not limited by the restrictions?
MR. BURKE: No they are limited by the amount of water they can gel
MR. PETTY: The volume, right. And Pelie,m Bay is not limited by restriction we are only limited by availability
beeanse emuent is not restricted by South Florida. A loop system is also one of those proposed as ontside of the restrictions
as well, but must be approvcd by South Florida. So it is similar to eflluent reuse in tl>at concept of it would bc exempt from
restrictions or it would be at worst a step above not having anything because it would be at a two when everybody else was at
a three.
DR. RAIA: My problem John is I am not aware of us having a problem. I don't see anything really broken here and
we are looking at ,m expenditure of $5-$7 million to fix sometlling that is not broken. However, The Club they need to be
looking at a problem that they have to fix and I would want to do everything possible to cooperate with tllem and fix their
problem, but to ask the rest of Pelican Bay to come up with $5-$7 million to fix their problem is the difficulty I have. I Just
want to know what tlle real benefit to us is. Don't tell me there will be more water there because right now it's going over
the side because we don't need iL I have never seen anything drying up here. So I would go along with the stndy it may be
helpful for future use or what have you. But personally I would take a serious look at. .
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: That's a valid concem. John?
MR. PETTY: Madam Chaie I agree it can't be sold as is without knowing the benefit: without knowing what tlle
financial structure would be, etc. TIle golf conrse has an irrigation need, Ille di\~sion has been looking at tlle water
management facility and tlle nutrient removal capabilities. As we all know there has been a rumor of nutrient loading in
Clam Bay, which we all know is false, but we have committed towards improving whatever we could to the removal of
nutrient loading capable in our existing system, Part of the benefit of our existing system is also salt water intrusion
protection. conpled wlth fresh water keeps the salt water from moving inland. By having access during the dry season to a
higher water table would certainly be beneficial to the trees and large shrubs. During the dry season all of Pelican Bay has an
issue with dropping water tables so we think during the dry season this system could be beneficial to everyone in Pelican
Bay. But there is no doubt that the golf course in this concept would be utilizing it for irrigation to their benefit irrigation
wise. Our only benefit comes from an increased water table. So you are absolutely right it is something that has to show that
it is beneficial and tlle cost relationship is relative to that beuefit
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Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
October t. 2008
1611A-4
DR. RAIA: Our waler table I admit may be going down. whieh is something we ean'l see or feel, but apparently it
is working, it is satisfactory. So it doesn't hme to be fixed unless there is some data corning up tlJal every year it is dropping
3 inches and in the year 2030 il is going 10 be no more. I mean is there sometlung that we are missing here'!.
MR. PETTY: No sir, you are absolutely right, tile system is working fine now this is above and beyond what is
already a benchmark system in place.
MR. IAIZZO: Now if yon look around tlw community we are not hurting. Other communities may be hurting
because they don't have a system that is similar to ours. We have a beautiful system in here, Ifs an automatic irrigation
system that we paid through the nose for and we are still paying to pnl in that irrigation system we are still not finished. And
here we are taking on another responsibility at $5-$7 million. Yon can't be serious. Yon really can't be serious. Iftlley want
to spend tile money for the study let them do tile study I don't tl1ink we should participate in that study.
MR. PETTY: MadIlln Chair there is no way that the study could be accepted withont our involvement.
MR. IAIZZO: Then let it die.
MR. PETTY: It is OUf water management system this is our permit that we hold it is our reasonability. When they
did tlus with the lake before and they wanted to capture we had to be involved. for them 10 move forward we would have to
be in a position to review. The golf course could not capture water in our system without affecting our water management
facilities.
MR. IAIZZO: Kyle off the top of your head, how much money did we spend for the automatic irrigation system
that is still being put in place for this conununit) ?
MR. LUKASZ: Probably close to a million probably $800,000.
!vIR, IAIZZO: Ami we are stiU not fnushed yet
MR. LUKASZ: We are starting the lasl phase.
MR. IAIZZO: The total cost I'm talking.
MR, LUKASZ: I'd have to go back and look.
MR IAIZZO: All right, but I'd appreciate those mUl1bers.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: You're not giving us an adv3l11age to hook on to really. I think thaI's the problem.
Maybe we are not getting the information correctly, or maybe we are juslnot seeing what you are telling us, but at this point
it looks like it is an advantage to the golf course and nobody else. But in actuality whenever you are talking about an entire
water system and we arc because Pelican Bay has a unique and very wonderful structure.
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Pelican Bay Services Dh'ision Meeting
October 1. 2008
16/1,fet
l\1R. PETTY: I\tladam Chair. the water management system that we have docs" 't care two hoots about irrigation.
The water management system is all about how to retain stonn ,valer on &ite: remove the nutrients before they hit Clam Bay,
which is a natural resource that nobody wishes to despoil. Our water management system is designed to hold st0011 water in
Pelican Bay for as long as possible so that tJlC natural biological actions can eleanse that water before it hits tJle bay. It is not
about inigation. A side benefit is that that water kept in Pelican Bay increases the water table under Pelican Bay which helps
prevent salt water intrusion except when It is not raining and it \vould Hot be raining in the dry seaSOH. That water system can
do nothing to prevent salt-water intrusion because there is no bnbble under Pelican Bay in the dJ)' season. TIle only way you
can create a bubble is if yon bring water from off site. By design Pelican Bay does so with its irrigation water When we had
our own well fields wc imported water from off sitc to on site which helped tJle bubble. Now we use cffluent from tJle
County from off site to on site and it helps the bubble. This is simply a way of goiug to tJlat ne"t level of efficieucy but there
is no illlluediate need it is only for efficiency gains tbat you would consider such a matter. And again the consideration is for
about $30,000 of engineering. Construction cost who knows whose going to pay for tllat or what they will be until we do get
the engineering. We arc pocketing in a large ball park of somewhere between $5-$7 million not knowing whose share would
be what: what we would pay; or what tllC golf course would pay; or how anybody else may benefit, but we need you to
understand those parameters before we go forward. We don't want to spend $3tWOO and hear a $5 million dollar nmnber
and go nuts so we are telling you tJlatnow. Again, it is a degree of eftlciency rather tllall sometlung illat is wrong.
MR. BURKE: So, Madaln Chari wh," is tile next step here?
MR. IAJZZO: Do we have a motion on the table to support that plall or not?
MR. BURKE: I don't think he asked for that did he?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: No, what I believe we are being asked is to llave him go forward and look more into
the study, tJle $28.000 consult and discuss tllis with the engineers and get some other estinlatcs. Is tJlat correct?
MR PETTY: Madam Cllair we are looking for direction from the board which doesn't need a vote, but we're are
looking for some type of nod from the board on whetller you want us to go forward and gather more infonmtion and bling a
fonuaJ proposal before you or if tllere is another direction you would like [ us to take.
MR. IAJZZO: Let's gel a consensns.
MR. MOFFATT: Why don't we get somebody knowledgeable to come in like this engineeling fino or some other
firm and give us a presentatiou on what this project is all about What arc tile benefits to Pelican Bay aud the golf course but
specifically Pelican Bay from our standpoint
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Pelican Ba~1 Sen'ices Di'"isioll Meeting
October 1. 2008
16
lfW
MR IAIZZO: Jerry you have to remember thai the water that we arc capturing goes back to The Clnb in their
retention pond okay. That's were it's going it's not going anyplace else.
MR BURKE: No. Umrs not right.
MR IAIZZO: And Ule frequency of overnowing Ule boards Umt are set al Ule east bcnn. Ule frequency of the
overflow is very low it's not something that you are going to see continuous it's low. When I say low here's the board and I
can see the \vater dO"l) herc and only when we have enormous amount of rain does it overflow and it doesn't last very long.
It's a very iffy project I wouldn't even venture that project.
MR MOFFATT: So you are not looking for more infornmtion based 011 what John has said? I'm just wondering
why we shouldn't hear from an expert.
MR. IAIZZO: I understand what you're saying Jerry, but if you continue looking you're looking at a number
between $5-$7million tlmt's what you are looking at
MR. BURKE: Madam Chair. I Unnk Jolm provided a valuable service here in bringing this to our attention and I
Urink we need to proceed with the study. I agree with Mr. Moffatt that perhaps we get this Aquaviva or someone else in here
and give us the pros and cons, advantages and disadvantages.
DR RAlA: I'm sure there are numbers on how many gallons of water there is seasonably and how much run off
Ulere is. These numbers are available or at least they should be available. I would like to Imve scen TIle Club come in and
wanting to share the cost of this. There may be some long range theoretical value to us that we would want to participate, but
righl now it is slanted so much in favor of the golf course and they are not putting up anything. We Imve to pay for Uns study
and I think they would have made a better showing if they said look we would like to have you share this with us because
there could be some benefit.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I believe the golf conrse is more than willing to put up money, what we are doing is
trying to become active participants in the conservation and holding of the water. It is not just for the golf course, it's the
whole entire cOlmnwlity. Anytime you have a drop of water in Pclican Bay no mattcr where. it becomes a part of our water
supply. I think that is why Jolm brought that to our attention in the first place.
DR R AlA: We have to see that presentation to see where the benefit is. Whatever problem we are foreseeing in
the future that we should be planning for now. These are arguments IIlat can be made to support a proposal like this.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay Mr. Petly has just nodded yes that it would be possible to bring in someone
from an engineering finn to give us those arguments.
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MR PETTY: l\1adam Chair that is exactly what we were looking for direction on we would be bringing in a better
qnote for you to look at and our engineer who could tell you from our perspective and for our protection what he saw as
potential benefit of course the analysis is where you get the actual. And, the golf course representative whether it be the
manager or Dan Aquaviva could be here to talk to you abont 'heir participation ou the other side of it We were just looking
for that indication. If that is where you would like to go we can certainly do that and that would be done at no cost to the
board.
MR IAIZZO: No cost that's all right witl, me.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Scems reasonable. I think we arc gelling a general conscnsus that we would like
more information.
MR PETIY: Madam Chair that is alII have under administrators report
MR MOFFATT: If I can ask Mary, iu my package I did not have tltis report may I get a copy of it
MS. MCCAUGHTRY: Absolutely.
MR BURKE: RMA repor!"
MR MOFFATT: Yes.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: We have no report from Clam Bay becausc at tltis point we are kind of out of the
loop on Clam Bay and anything to do Witll it
CLAM BAY
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, I llllve two fomls of eomnuullcation with the manager's officc. One is an email and
the other is a phone call. I had talked with Leo Ochs before and direcUy after the commissioners meeting where they decided
that another entity would be responsible for Clam Bay and we talked about transition issues and we are to get back together I
just have nothing to report to you today because I wasn't able to make that connection before today' s meeting. But it is
something that Leo Ochs had said the County management staff would be working on it and would bring it to my attention as
soon as they have something solid.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: So tnlllsition issues indicate that whatever we have done in the past will now be
handed over, or a great majority of what we have been doing witb Clam Bay will be handed over, to the new advisory
comnrittee that Gary is setting up"
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MR PETTY: The direction tile commissioncrs gave was that tI]e new group would be giving recommeudations on
the operation and management to thc CAC and they would give their opiniou to the BCC who would then decidc what proper
actions to take. Aud we are expecting PBSO seniees to be transitioned out of the operations and maintenance.
DR. RAIA: John, several BCC meetings have taken place. Is tllere any reason why they haven't rescinded their
motiou to have us go ahead willi tllC 5-year permit? That's still iu effect Why haven't they chauged that why haven't they
withdrawn tlltlt'!
MR PETTY: Sir I can't talk to the procedure tolerances of the BCC other tllaU they can change tlleir minds and
make the new ordinance that reverses their position at any time they think it is in the best interest of Collier County. And I
believe that is wlmt they have done. Procedure for nullifYing a past action is often not doue by a local government in
autllorizing new ordinance. TI]e new ordinance itself is the closing out of the last ordirnmce so to speak. Tim! is something
that we could talk to the manager's office abont, but so far it has evolved into no tllat is how they nonnally do it they create a
new ordinance tlltlt would basically override the prior ordinance.
DR RAIA: If we were to approve the 5-year pennit that would go before the commissioners and tlltlt would nudge
them to say no you can't do tlmt
MR PETTY: I agree with you tllat it would nudge them, but I dou't know what the message would be behind tlle
nudge, but I agree it would be a uudge.
DR RAIA: If somebody here wants to nlake a motion to proceed with the 5-year piau I would be glad to second it
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I can't do tl]at in good faith.
MR. BURKE: I would suggest that Ted go the next BCC meeting and under public comments bring it up. Tlltlt's
what the pnblic comments are for so it will force them to tell him face to face what their position is.
DR. RAIA: I am morc concerned with what our position is. And if our position is not to proceed with the 5 year
permit tl]en that is tl]e position I take.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I think actually if we do this step by step, I don't think it is a done issue becanse we
all feel so passionate about it But in order to get a clarification we almost have to do what Jim Burke is suggesting and one
of ns go before the board as a member of Pelican Bay not as a member of the PBSD board, or some citizen from Pelican Bay,
and prompt them nicely but ask what are your concerns and wllat are you going to do forward from Uris point because we do
have reqnest for a 5 year pernrit in and we have not been denied.
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MR IAJZZO: Madam Clmir fllaf is not an action item coming IrOIll an individual. Coming from the board if would
be an action item and they ha\'e to say yea or nay and we prett} much knO\i" what they are going to say.
MR BURKE: My feeling is and it is coming up at cvery one of our board meetings now and just sit here. we can't
answer. They are the only ones that can answer it. This is a passiomtc hot button item go to them, ask them in public.
Perhaps then they would say okay we are going to vote to turn that down or whatever.
DR. RAIA: My reading of people llmt speak 10 me, at least I can't generalize more than that is we should go ahead
and protect our interest willI this 5 year permit and it shonld come from us. We were gh'en those rights by the Connty
Commissioners we answer to the County Commissioners. That's it, I'm only supponing people who speak to me. If the
people you speak to don't want us to do that tl,en 1I111!'S fine. this is a democracy.
MR. LEVY: That would involve many monlllS of work and expenditure out of this community and result in a
document IImt goes to the county manager and it would stopped right lllere.
DR RAIA: Michael, I tlrink it would be stopped before that Imppen. If they said go ahead they would let us go
ahead. I think it would just deliver a message that we are IImt concerned aboulthe issue of the mangroves that we would like
to proceed with the 5 year permit.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: In what way do you think we should do tlllll?
DR RAIA: They would just say uo we decided to rescind llml or come right back to us and say
MR. IAIZZO: Why don't youjusl send them a letter?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: What arc you planning on doing to make them think that we are proceeding?
DR. RAIA: I withdmw all of my comments becanse I don't want to waste any time on this.
MR MOFFATT: Madam Clmir, I am taking Mr. Petty's advice I think I found a place on the agenda I can work in
one of my questions from the minutes IImt I tried to ask earlier. If I understand the minutes. Tim's contract I understood that
his contmet expired yesterday so does thaI mean he is no longer being paid, there is no need for him or do we need to extend
the contrnct.
MR. PETTY: Madam Chair his contract was to perform under the permit for tlus calendar year and he hasn't
completed his work. He owes us work and we aren't letting lum off the hook until he finishes his job. But it isn't a bad idea
if you want to continue the contract Administrator-s staff has no problem with that we have no negatives to bring to your
attention on Umt.
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MR BURKE: Madam Chair, my recommendation tomorrow is the absolute cut off date for this new Clam Bay
committee, they'll come in they'll have to get on an upcoming BCC board meeting to appoint them. Chances are pretty
good that this board will not meeting until December, might meet in Novembcr, but probably Dccember. We are operating
under an extended one year pennit I wonId say we stay with Tim contractually and opcrate business as usual.
CHAIR WOMAN WOMBLE: I don't see any reason not to.
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, may I makc a suggestion to go month to month nnder the contract willI Tunell Hall
and Associates.
MR. IAIZZO: How do we define his tasks at this poinL
MR PETTY: We can define his task as those existing in the one year permit extensioll. Perfonllance that we
require for the last ten Iltat he still ltasn't completed for this year. We are familiar with the contract requirements
MR HALL:. TIte one outstanding issue we do have left is the compilation and presentation of the annual report and
because of the way that falls it is ontside Ille COlmty's actual fiscal yem it goes to December, We are still obligated to
compile and present that report and to respond to any questions that may arise from Ille agencies as a result of that reporL
MR MOFFAIT: How about any duties you have on a montWy, weekly, quarterly basis?
MR. HALL: I guess that would be up to the board to decide. What we usually do is I get a call if there is a problem,
if someone saw downed mangroves or there is mangroves hanging over Ille berm or the boardwalks Utat ueed to be trilllllled
IllOse type things we just take on a day by day or as needed basis.
MR. MOFFA IT: But as of now you believe your contract expired at thc end of September?
MR, HALL: Actually Kyle had said something to me and the contrnct is actually out till March so we are good were
covered until March of uex1 year.
MR. MOFFAIT: So that's an enor in Ille minutes.
MR. HALL: That's an enor on my part I thought our contract expired with Ille fiscal teon and the accounting
department straightened me out
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, the difference is Ille contrnct was for a IO-year period what he has now is a purchase
order from Oct I going forward to March.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: How does that work into our budget, is tllat in our best interest?
MR. PETTY: We are fine Madalll Chair, it's in our budget because we didn't know when the transition was going
to take place so we left the budget alone and Illat was a board decision. We can continue on witl] Turrell, Hall and Associates
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October 1. 2008
1. ? t
1_-,:, \~_;.!..i -'
#1
all we need is a little indication from you. We had ,mticipated having to do something for the nex1 year and this board has
budgeted for a complete year so we are covered financially.
MR BOLAND: John. his comact is good lill March 31 and tllen it expires so why don't we just extend Ius contract
till July 31;' if we don't have any answer, I don't think we arc going to have an answer from the new Clam Bay Advisory
Committee by then, I doubt We probably won't hear something until 2010 but at least go to the end of the pernut That
would make sense to me because we are not doing anything illegal we arc not v;olating any of the County's rules or
regulations and the pennit expires July 31 or Jnly I, one oflhose days. I recommend we go lmdereontract at least until tllen.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I think we have Tim and his buddies until March anyways and we can go on a per
month basis at that point Is that correct Tim, is that something your firm would consider?
MR HALL: Yes, it would be more of an issue with tile accounting departments in the County as to how the
extension would actually be done.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: We arc good to go at this point
MR PETrY: Madam Chair, I think we've covered it for a minimum of the nex1 6 months as long as you all can
give ns that nod of the head we will be glad to take that as direction from the board to cominue as we hact
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I see no re"son to discontinue as we have. Anyone have a question or any more
discussion?
MR MOFFATT: Thatrequireamotion?
MR. PETrY: We can take directiou from tile bo",d willlOut motions. Doesn't hurt though if you would like to do
one.
CHAIR WOMAN WOMBLE: I think we can just go ahead and continue on business as usual. I am especially glad
because we are still not out of the hurricane season and that can reek havoc with mangroves. So thank you Tim I am glad
your here.
MR. LEVY: Madam Chair, we were given a letter here from the PBPOA reg",ding how members were going to be
selected. Two Pelican Bay members on this Pelican Bay Advisory Committee.
MR. PETrY: Madam Chair, if I may? Two meetings ago, this issue was discussed and this board approved that
you would send no member of this board but that you could recommend three members of the community: Me. Domenk
Mrs. Cravens and Mr. Roellig as qualified and scientifically confident to evaluate tile nmtter. And I do believe that is our
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Pelican Bay Senices Division Meeting
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recommendation and again I have the call into the managers' office to discuss the transition where I can respectfully tell him
that we have declined the option of two board members bnl hm e suggested three residents.
MR LEVY: Thank you.
MR BURKE: Madam Chair, the ordinance does not say there has to be a board member from either the Foundation
or (he services division it says hvo Pelican Bay residents, \\le don't need to pound tbat issue anymore, it's moot.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: TIle letter indicates for thosc of you who do not have a copy that there would be an
ad hoc commillee with members from the Property Ovmers Association; the Foundation and the PBSD to get together and
discuss and research who we might, as a commllllity offer, for suggestions to the BCC; eertain people that we would feel are
totally qualified fTOm our neighbor hood ,md would best be selected for Umt new Clam Bay group.
MR BURKE: Better hurry.
MR MOFFATT: Didn't we already do that from what John just said?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Well Ule PBSD lms already submitted names and Uley are excellent people all three
and Ule ad hoc committee that is in the process of being formed I think they are going to be out of date.
MR. BURKE: Madam Clmir U,ere is a litHe complication here. We can recommend all we want but they have to
apply. That is maybe the first step and if they are going to apply they better move because tomorrow is the cut off date.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: And Ule oHler issue from this particular lelter was that they were recommeuding two
members from each of these different boards. But we are a board govemed by Sunshine Laws so we could nol have two
people from our board. I contacted Me Trecker and reminded him of Hlat fact and let him know that we have already put
some names fonvard aud that we would applaud Hlem for whatever efforts HIeY pul into this and we would support them
wholeheartedly because we are Pelican Bay members but that we have already done our part with this issue and that is where
we stood. They were going to keep me informed, but as Mr. Burke just brought up Hle issue is probably moot because unless
these people are picked out of a Imt fast and apply quickly il is nol going to happen.
MR BOLAND: According to the ordinance the BCC has the sole discretion who to choose from. so the way we've
been batting [ Hunk we should put a couple of names in there, but as Jim Burke said Hley had to apply. Wheu is the cut off
date for the application?
TvIR BURKE: Tomorrow.
MR. BOLAND: So if they don't apply by tomorrow and if they do not apply they could not be elected then,
DR RAIA: Does anybody know if David Roellig and 101m Domenie know this?
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MR KLAUBER: Bill Klauber. I'm ou tile board at the PBPOA and our feeling was that it would not be a member
from any of the boards and I think what Dave was hoping was that tile three organizations. the Fonndation. tile PBPOA and
this board would get together to make recommendations for dIe members.. Question. is tbat Oct. 2 dale for the jurisdictions
that have already been given by Pelican Bay two memberships.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: It is tlmt partieldar committee if I understand eoneetly that had tllTee weeks. If a
concerned citizen wanted to apply for application to that committee the)' had three weeks from the time the BCC made that
information known to the public during one offhcir meetings and that would have been tomorrow. That is tlle eorrcct date.
MR KLAUBER: Pelican Bay doesn't loose the two memberships if those were not in tomonow?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I would likc to be able to say no. but I don't know that we can say that
DR RAIA: The County would appoint who tlley wanl to appoint
MR. PETYY: Madam Chair, regardless of thc procedures that may be implemented later I think this board has
made their decision that no member here will participate respectfully. And if they wish us to give them reconunendations I
have three names I can give them if they are looking to fulfill through the nonna! advertisement for advisory board members
as we are going through for our members then that \\lorks too. I think we are covered under any circumstances.
MR BOLAND: Lct me ask you a question John. If no one from Pelican Bay applied what would happen, would
they be out?
MR BURKE: They would re-advertise. But if only two people from Pelican Bay apply for the slots they are
automatically in.
MR PETIY: Subject to confirmation by the County Commissioners of coursc.
MR BURKE: Exactly, they wouldn't have any option there.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I don', believe there is anything for the Budget Committee other than the fact that
those of you who want to be on that committee are starting 10 gulp a little bit because we are starting a whole new year and
that means guess \vhat? A new committee. new expenditures and new concerns.
MR BURKE: Madam Chair on that particular subject our new member Mr. Moffatt has an extensive accounting
background, CPA background. I would think it would be a major value to this board if he were to serve on that committee.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Considering that before he became a member of this board he let mc know that that
was kind of his evening reading. I totally believe you are quite right and on Ihe right track. Are we in Ihe right ball park here
Jerry, are you interested?
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October I. 2008
161IA4
MR MOFFATT: Yes I am
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I kind of thought so. Ok thank you Jerry. Well, we need to do some appointing of
committees and I am wondering if we might wanl to step back from the Clam Bay :md name tlle committee something a little
different because of the situation with Clanl Bay and a new advisory committee forming, maybe we should continue ,vith our
concerns for ,,,ith that area bnt rename it J\.1angrovc Commiuee.
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, whate\'er is the pleasure of the board. Staff is looking al tTansitiou of responsibilities
as far as the responsibilities of the division it would take a change in the ordinance, which wc will be talkiug to the manager's
office about. if that is the intent of the Commissioners to change our ordinance because it does specifically state that, that was
again one of the changes that chainnan Jim Carroll had done in thc past We are looking for funber clarification to call it a
conservation area or whatever you would like to nanle it is perfectly fine.
MR BURKE: Madam Chair what would the committee do? I mean if they held a meeting what would they do?
WOMBLE: I really think all it does is give the public another access to voice eonccrns that arc more specific than
streetlights, pathways, tmffic. 11 would give them a chance to me more specific iu tlleir needs or coucerns. That's the ouly
reason I would consider it.
MR. BURKE: Madam Chair could tllC conmnttee chair then go 10 thc new Clam Cay Estuary Advisory Committee
aud pass ou these concerns aud things like that? Would they be allowed to"
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I would assume so I tllink that would be something tllat would be possible.
MR. PETTY: No Madam Chair unless you wish to re-vote I mean tlmt is wllat you all voted on last time where you
said no board member can represent this body in that fasmon as a single entity nnless it is assigned by the board. In other
words you would all have to vote to say Mr. Burke represented your views and could vote yes or no to the entity, Now of
course you can designate an)' person as a liaison to go to that meeting to discuss concerns without coming to conclusions or
votes per say. But say you were going send Me Burke to this meeting to discuss our concems over the loss of mangroves
underneath this proposed boardwalk of the parks and rec. Tlmt certainly is something that the chair could designate at
anytime.
DR. RAIA: It is a bit of redundancy here because we are going to have two knowledgeable people from Pelican
Bay attending those meetings and they hopefully will share their knowledge with us at a meeting. Usually they arc at these
meeting anyway. So I mean we don't need to have checkers on checkers, If anything we may want to have a liaison with tile
MAG. Hopefully, the MAG will still be functional and we can have a liaison person attend MAG if tllere is a need for that.
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Pelican Bay Services DiyisioD Mectin~
October 1, 2008
1611A-'1
MR. BURKE: My point is il sounds like we don't need a Clam Bay commiltee hcrc. We've got all these silly mles
that nobody can go to tlns committee and express concerns then why havc it. What are they going to do come to our regular
board meeting I say wc just wash our hands of it. As Ted says, wc are going to havc two knowledgeable residents on tins
board and they can represent Pelican Bay.
MS. CRAVENS: I'mjust incredulous this is an MSTBU, I mean the major benefit here is Clmn Bay. That is why
we are a MSTBU. We budgeted in 2009 $330,000 for Clam Bay what's going to happen to tlmt money? For one thing I
mean the mles are tile County can't take it mld use if for something else. Itlms 10 be used for your benefit for what you want
your benefit to be. or the community's I should say. I sent an email ont here to remind people what the MSTBU was and
these are in John Petty's words and I am just going to read it into the record if you don't' mind. This is a lelter lhat went to
Leo Ochs tlmt was forwarded to Mr. John Petty to answer resident's questIOns about tile MSTBU. Inquirer says 'I would like
10 find out more about the PBSD is this a MSTU', the response is 'we are a MSTBU which is similar with the B representing
that assessments are based on benefil versus ad valorem or property values'. Question: 'Can you cxplain in laymen terrns
what this is'? Answer: 'Let me begin by saying a MSTBU is a division of County government established to provide
additional services to a geographically specific portion of the COllnty funded through an additional assessment placed on that
same area that we placed on ourselves'. Question: 'Wbat cost arc associated \VitJl it'? 'Administmtivc. operating and
maintenancc cost associated with our specific additional services which include beautification: landscaping of the riglit-of-
ways and other public areas; water management: drdimge; flood protection: aquifer recharge and nmintaining balancc in the
Clam Bay Estuary: restoration and mmmgement of Clam Bay: hydraulic connections to shallow areas for manh'fove
restoration including flushing ability of Clam Pass and street lights'. Those arc actually, I don't understand why we're
getting ad valorem taxes in addition to our MSTBU assessment for street liglits becanse if you read the documents it's
actually suppose to be part of the MSTBU assessment that we do and I don't understand why you are also allowing ad
valorem taxing for the streetlights. Maybe somebody could e"plain tImt. But. can I finish? I mn just incredulous that this
secms to be a forgotten issue or something. I don't IIl1derstand it as a resident who thinks and IIl1derstands that the only
MSTBU in Collier County is Pelican Bay and wImt a special sitmtion you havc hcre that your founders of the community
provided for you.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I understand your frustration but YOll jllSt read exactly why we are silting here as
fmstr'dted as YOll are. You said, let me quote, "an MSTBU is a division of County govermnent", we are a division of County
government. We watched while Couuty govermneut took away our right to take care of the Clam Bay Estuary. We are a
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Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
October 1. 2008
lOllA-4
division of County govemment. We do not have the right or capability of choosing what we are going to do. We are at the
whim of the COlmly Commissioners.
MS. CRA YENS: Not exactly. Tliere are communications from David Weigel, tile attomey for the Connty, wliere all
these questions are LlOt dead, tIley have been asked before. David Weigel gave opinion on them. The MSTBU funds and
what we allocate as our non ad valorem are for our benefit and wliat we deem om benefit to be. If we deem it to be Clam
Bay it cannot be taken and used for something else. Now correct me if I am wrong.
MR PETTY: Madam Chair. she's wrong, kind of sort of. A MSTBU and the benefit thereof. is based on tile degree
of benefit. The reason we are a benefit unit and not an MSTU is because PBID, our predecessors, assigned the assessments
based on benefits issued bonds based on that metllodology as a revenue source and that was the only power to raise revenue
at tile time and is typically applied to all water management facilities because you are raising land above the flood stage. So
it is typical in Florida tllat tlley are that benefit style assessment and tllat's why we became a benefit unit if you will. It didn't
have to do with the mangrove restoration because of course there was no mangroves down at the time.
MS. CRA YENS: That was added later.
MR. PETTY: So when it gets added later, the benefit is applied typically to capital constmction. And, in our case
Clam Bay was considered a capital project and is considered to be benefit and capital so it does meet the criteria so we
wouldn't remove money from tile Clam Bay pot, if you would, to any olller pot. Now tlie $350,000 iliat you mention isn't all
assessment most of that about $225,000 is ad valorem tm,es coming from Fmld III of tile Coullty.
MS. CRA YENS: Is it a $125,000 tlmt is our non ad valorem?
MR. PETTY: And tlmt is money tlmt will not come out of Clanl Bay no matter what. Itmnst stay in Clam Bay or
come back to us in Pelican Bay it is a controlled fund and tile CmUlty does realize ilIa!. At least tile accountants do so far.
MS. CRA YENS: And tile other non ad valorem assessments ilia! we pay?
MR. PETTY: Are not benefit assessments, tIley are history in benefit but they are called maintenance assessments, a
close cousin.
MR. BURKE: Madam Chair, tile question I had on the floor was do we need the Clam Bay committee? We are not
here to reorganize the MSTBU right now. Are we going to continue with Ule Clam Bay committee or not? That's where we
were and now were off here into what's an MSTBU.
MS. CRA YENS: I'm just mal<ing a point tlmt tllere is still funding for Clam Bay and it would seem iliat would still
have some oversight for iliat funding. You don't know what that new connniUce is going to decide. You don't know if they
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Pelican Bay Sen'iccs Division Meeting
October 1. 2008
16/1144
are going to decide that Pelican Bay is still IIle best steward for the mangroves so why would you want to eliminate tIlis at
least have it ongoing in some fashion.
MR PETTY: Madam Cliair, if I may suggest, there will be some temporary transitiou issues at least on Clam Bay
blltl see llO reason lIrat you need a separate committee because I don't think tile volume is outside of this board's capability.
So wltile I thiuk it is an issue you may want to take it ou as a standard business item that this board takes on without a
committee's presence as necessary.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: And if we need sometlting more we can always ask for it.
MR. PETTY: Absolutely.
MR. BOLAND: We just discnssed before the new Clam Bay committee probably will not get any1hing resolved
nntil after a year iftlley are really good at it Tlmt means nmybe tllis time next year, nmybe a little later. I don't want to see
tire mangroves go back to what it was 10 years ago I don', think anybody in Pelican Bay wants to see that. I tIlink iliat was
what Marcia was alluding to. So, we need to do sometlting temporary untiJ this new committee comes up willI their plan.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Tllat sometlting temporary was sitting in the front row right here and his name is Tim
Hall.
MR, BOLAND: Wlmt do we do in the interim from now until say neA1 December?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: We will tIlen see Kyle.
MR. BURKE: Madam Clmir, I would recommend we just leave the rnune Clam Bay Committee alone.
DR. RAJA: TlIC board call act as a comntittee.
MR. BURKE: And, tllen ifi[ comes to the point where we need to reactivate that you can appoint the members to it
and we can move on it But right now they would have monthly meetings and I don't know what tlrey wonld meet about.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I agree we can just leave it as is and just say no scheduled meetings right now.
MS. CRA YENS: Just don't abolish it that's aliI anI saying,
GOVERNMENT RELATIONS
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay, fair enough so we have no report from Clam Bay. The Govenllllent Relations
committee and we are going to need one just because there "ill be a lot of information coming in and it will be good for the
committee to be formed to oversee what's coming in and wlrat's going out. Do we have anybody here that would be
interested in sitting on a govemment relations committee?
MR. MOFFATT: Let me ask you about committees. They are not subject to tile Sunshine Laws"
7620
Peliclln Ba}' Services Division Meeting
October 1. 2008
16,
~
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yes they arc.
MR. MOFFATT: They are posted meetings and held montllly?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: So you can have a group of members from tltis board and generally that's what we
have, 3-5 members will be on committee in order to assess the infommtionthat's come in or whatever concems some of the
Pelicau Bay citizenry may have and lIlose arc documented meetings and IIley arc published so that people can come and bring
their concerns or just follow along and leam what we're doing, but it is under Sunshine Law also.
DR RAIA: Madam Chair I tltink we reall}' resolved this at previous meetings iliat this would be another committee
where the board conld act as the committee and you direct or the board directs an individual to resolve a particular problem
and leave it at iliat. I wouldn't wantlo go back to having a person spend all their time down at the government center.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Very honestly some of the problems I faced being on litis board lrave been caused by
Sunshine Law where I didn't know what was going on from other connniUees and I couldn't always be at my Clam Bay
cOlrumttee and other comntittee meetings and I tltink it would be beneficial if the entire board were to hear tile same tlling at
tile same time especially with regard to goveITUnent relations. I think we would all appreciate knowing what one small group
might be hearing because I don't think that it's a teclmical area. Budget Committee that is highly specific and people who
know what lIlere doing with budgets and understand movement of dollars ou paper and in reality iliat's a whole different ball
game. But wheu you're talking about government relations I tltink we all need to hear what ntight he going on. Does
anyone have a comment about that? Do we need a committee?
MR. MOFFATT: Just an observation as a firsl meeting member, we've spent well not quite tIlree hours because we
had to wait for a tape recorder, but we had an agenda, that was a nothing agenda quite frankly. If you look at it there was
nothing exciting on it notlting controversial and we are almost three hours into it. If we act as a committee of a whole on
Clam Bay and Government Relations, I just want to know where you arc catering dinner from because we are going to be
here forever.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: That's a good point. Jerry I know you haven't really been here to too many of these
meetings, You've been here tlrroughout tile smruner but if you had been here in the past during tile times when we had
eonnnittee meetings meeting regularly every month and discussing tltings and coming back they would have 1Ile same
discussion at the committee meeting and then bring it back to the board and to get everyone on the same page it \vas an on
going process of IIle sanre discussion aU over agahl What I all1trying to do is elintinate tIlat extra time period and you lmve
already made yourself known iliat you want to be on the budget committee and there is going to be one of those. Actually we
762]
Pelican Bay Sen'iccs Division Meeting
October I. 2008
16111\'1
arc giving you the same information we are aU going to get at the same time which may be a benefit to all of us anyway,
That way there is not a leal<age or left out bit of information. Jerry, you're point is well taken, but you haven't sat through
some of the other board meetings that tbe rest of liS have. Does this seem commensurdte with our ideas of trying to get
informatiou and education to each one of us so that we are all the same page at tile same time as much as possible? Do we
really ueed anolller conuttittee?
DR RAlA: Just 1Ile budget committee, is tire only committee I can see we need.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: That's wlmtl really tltink is a coucern righlnow. If something in tile future comes
up and we need something more we can always do it.
MR. MOFFATT: Let me a.sk you, my other question from the minutes is last meeting you formed a committee, I
don't know what tille you gave it to work on changes in tire ordinance. And YOll had a nlllnber of members assigned to it.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Tlm!'s right. it never met?
MR. PETTY: It hasn't met yet we are still in scheduling mode, but we hoped to meet.
MR. MOFFATT: So iliat would be a committee iliat would be a continuing comntittee,
MR. BURKE: An ad hoc.
DR. RAlA: That's an ad hoc committee and John's presentation of various types of govenunent 1Ilat we could Imve
for ourselves was really part of that committee that was fonned to get this infornmtion.
MR. BURKE: My tal<e on wlrat John presented is why waste our time.
DR. RAIA: Tllat's your opiltion.
MR BOLAND: Clam Bay committee are you three right now, John Domeltie was on it he resigned he's gone
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I was on it.
MR. BOLAND: You'll have to resign you're the chair so to me I would prefer to see it keep going becanse you
never know what's going to lmppen. There are a lot of threat of lawsuits out there by various comntittees within Pelican Bay,
you hear all kinds of rumors. I would like to cover our butts here and nmke sure we don't drop tile ball. What's the lrarm in
keeping 1Ile Clam Bay cOlmnittee and put some new members on it. [don't see any Imnu in it, its' just back up. Even if we
don't have any say we can give advice. I would feci more comfortable if we kept the Clam Bay committee active. That is
just my personal opinion.
MR. PETTY: Madam Clmir, all cOlmnitlees are subject to the pleasure of the chair and can be created outside litis
meeting you are not required to create tllem inside litis meeting. So if something did happen you could certainly bring back
7622
Pelican Ba)' Scn'ices Division Meeting
October 1, 2008
16 , I A7
Clmn Bay by having stalJ put together a special Clam Bay meeting, calling together tile members that you signity and it
would tllCn be publically adveItised in the paper as such.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Do you have a problem with Umt? John, would tlmt be all rigbt to pnt sometlting in
place should 1Ilere be a need. We have not dissolved.
MR. BOLAND: We have not dissolved, so Ijust say keep it active.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: WelL I tltink it is active.
MR. BOLAND: Witl, a few more members 011 it.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: So you want the people named?
MR. BOLAND: Yes.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I don't think it IS necessary,
MR. MOFFATT: TIle chair is trying to eliminate duplication and move tIlings along by having tIlis board function
as a committee.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Any oilIer comments? Do we need a motion on litis?
MR. PETTY: No madam chair, it is at your discretion.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I tltink my discretion is iliat we will continue holding 1Ile place of a Clam Bay
committee possibility, but I am not going to appoint people. Only should we need, or have a need arise, will we actually
name names and put people on cOlUmittee. At that point. we Illay possibly have new members so it behooves LIS to move
cautiously in an area tlmt is in transition anyway. As far as the govemment relations, am I on tile same page as 1Ile rest of you
for IImt? Ted could you feel comfortable with finding out infonnation for the entire board at one point mld as discussing it as
an entire board rather ilian as a committee briuging it back and responding to the rest of us. I really do see that we can
eliminate a lot of excess lime and effort without Ihese extra committees. The budget committee I'm sorry but that is one I
definitely do want to continue for obvious reasons. So in that case I had Mike Levy, John Boland, Jolm laizzo and Jerry
Moffall were all W"dnting to be on tllat connnittee, Am I correct John? With tIlat in ntind, I would like some input as to
leadership on litis particular cOlmltittee.
BUDGET COMMITTEE
MR. BURKE: Who are 1IIe members of tlmt comntittee? Levy, laizzo, Moffat mld Bolmld, ~ people only?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Would you like [0 serve also?
MR. BURKE: No, I think you should have 5 though so you don't have ties in votes.
7623
16/1119
Pelican Bay Senices Division Meeting
October 1. 2008
DR. RAIA: Some times you only get four guys attending tile meeting anyway.
MR. BURKE: Yes and then you can still ltave a lie vote, since Vie are not going to have any active committees then
I would appoint a fifth one.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Do you have a suggestion. here's the list.
MR. BURKE: Levy, laizzo, Moffatt and Boland, I'd say Geoff Gibson.
DR. RAIA: He's not here, tlmt's a good idea.
MR. PETTY: We always like to get them when tlley are not here.
MR. BURKE: Someone may contact him, I think he wonld be a good one and I would also like to nominate Jerry
Moffatt to chair it becanse of his extensive accounting background. And I know that he has delved into tIlat budget pretty
good already.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: He definitely has, he's reading it like a novel, I tltink we can go ahead and put Geoff
on iliat would be a good way for him to get up to speed especially witll tlle water issue coming before us and wanting to find
more infoffilation about that He will have something to bear on tIlat topic and ma)'be if he understands our budget better it
would help him understand a complete picttlre more qllickly. So that sounds good to me. Do I have a request for a chair?
Anyone of you want to be the chair?
MR. BURKE: I recommended Jerry Moffatt
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yon recommended Jerry Moffatt'> Anyone else?
MR. BOLAND: I would prefer Mike because he has been on and has the most knowledge of IIle three iliat are
cUITCntly on it and nollling personal against Jerry but he's new to the shop and I just feel like I ratller go with an experienccd
guy, is my personal opiinon,
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I agree with you and I agree with Jim. I don't normally agree with everybody but I
do on tIlis point. I tltink honestly we should have two co-chairs. TIlere is a lot of import involved in litis committee and I
tllink you could be a very good team together witll a lot of help and effort among the five of you. TItings could get done a
little more quicker and a lot more comfortably and I think, Jerry you and Mike could work very well together. Would tlmt be
sometlling iliat you could consider?
MR. MOFFATT: Yes.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: So be it we have co-chairs of Mike Levy and Jerry Moffatt and tllen lire rest of the
committee. Thank you gentlemen.
7624
Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
October 1. 200S
1611rt4
MR. PETTY: Madam Chair, we will be scheduling a meeting as soon as we can get a room and a consensus from
the members when they can meet \Ve do have a topic of discussion and it is typical of this time of year it is assessments
versus taxes.
MR. LEVY: Do we have a date John?
MR, PETTY: Nol yet sir we will check for room availability and we'll poll lIle members of the committee to mal<e
sure tlmt we arc getting something that everyone can allend.
CAPITAL PROJECTS
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Moving right along, Myra Janco Daniels Blvd. Median and how about the
crosswalk?
MR. LUKASZ: Actually the medians been completed and tlmt p~iect is...,.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: ThaI's a done deal and that then will be tile crosswalk from litis point forward.
MR LUKASZ: The Oal<mont Parkway irrigation lImt work should start the middle of this month. TIle contract has
been awarded to Stahlman-England Irrigation. The Vanderbih Beach Rd, Bollard Lighting work will actually start tomorrow
and sliould tal<e 2-3 weeks. I didn't include the crosswalk becallse it falls in tile new fiscal year, but at the next meeting I will
have an update as far as the schedule of construction.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I appreciate iliat Kyle, thank you.
MR. LEYY: Just a question on lIlC Oakmont Parkway Irrigation, is that a new project'!
MR. LUKASZ: Tlmt was in tile OS budget. That was a capital project in the OS budget.
MR. PETTY: Mad,un Chair we have been hearing iliat from Kyle now for over 2 years. We're hoping that litis is
the last project in iliat series of projects.
MR LUKASZ: The only area that we won't have done is the irrigation in the cul-de-sacs, which isn't really
practical because we Imve no power to each of the cuI-dc-sacs,
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Well, tllat can be down tile line as we go more green perhaps.
MR, LUKASZ: Right and witll some of the newer technology tliere may be materials Ollt tllere tlmt we could tic that
into our centralized system using solar possibly.
MR. LEVY: Wlmt was 1Ile bndget on lIlis?
MR. LUKASZ: $95,000.00.
MR. LEVY: That money's in the OS budget?
7625
Pelican Bay Services Dhisioll Meeting
October 1. 200S
, , " 1 IJ-9
,"'
, :)
-
MR. PETTY: It is a carry forward from the 08 and the 07. It was a project that was approved way back. I think
there have been seven steps. This is not something tllat came before the budget committee for consideration. As you recall
you gave us a limit but no specific jobs. This is a specific job that was carried over from approvals from prior years.
MR. LEVY: Tltis doesu't come out of our 09 budget?
MR. LUKASZ: Yes, actually it's in specific projects. And actually these bids came in last spring but the BCC was
looking at the local vendors issue and lIlCY wouldn't opeu up the proposals mltil after lImt was resolved and tllen they were on
vacation so it never got to the board to be awarded lmtil September.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: It's in the 09 but it's a carryover, correct?
MR. PETTY: We will do the work, we'll give them the money in 09 but the money comes from prior years.
COMMUNITY ISSUES
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Anyone have something going on in Pelican Bay that they need for us to address?
Womble: Okay, no one? Moving right along, plan reviews?
PLAN REYIEWS
MR. PETTY: We have nothing new to report.
COMMITTEE REOUESTS
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I request iliat the budget committee meet, rather quickly and get on it.
AUDIENCE COMMENTS
There were no comments from the audience.
MR. BURKE: Madam Chair, I was going to mal<e some comments but due to the length of this meeting and tile
importance of what I am going to propose I am going to put in on as an agenda item for the November meeting. Hopefully
we'll have somewlmt close to a full board mther limn 1Ile average six members we've been getting,
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Mr. Pendergrass step to the mike please.
MR. PENDERGRASS: I'd just like to tell you that I have it on good authority that Ed Staros is willing to resign at
anytime. I don't know what his intentions are but I heard iliat he is willing to resign today.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Was tllis sometltingyoujust heard today?
MR. PENDERGRASS: Yes, obviously. I don't know whatltis exact intentions are but he is willing to resign today.
7626
Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
October 1. 200S
1611k1
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I just wanted to get that into the record. Then we can go forward witll lIle
replacement process.
MR. BURKE: Has he submitted a lctter of resignation?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yes, but he had a date of December something in it.
MR. BURKE: To Whom was 1Ile letter addressed'!
MR. PETTY: To Comntissioner Halas and copied to my office and the chair.
MR. BURKE: So he simply needs to amend tlmt and get it to the same people.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I don't know legally if that's correct.
MR. BURKE: Believe me that's correct.
MR. PETTY: Madam Chair, I believe that would follow procedure but tlmt would be up to Mr. Staros to do and I
think you've already set IIlat in motion. Then we will work willI the county staff on suggestion of Mr. Hnnter Hansen or an
advertisement iliat would ask for participation, whichever tllC County is going to indicate.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I think he would be a very good addition to this board so hopefully that can go fairly
quickly so IImt will be Ollr suggestion to lIlC County Commissioners. Do we necd any kind of a motion?
MR. PETTY: At this time there is no action reqnired since no recommendation can be given yet.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay, then [think we canadjoum this meeting.
MR. MOFFATT: c'm I ask a question first?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Sure Jerry.
MR. MOFFATT: There is advertisement in the papcr for a notice of a meeting whereby the Foundation is looking
to get hold ofa piece of property. I guess tIley are asking the County to give it up to tile benefit of tile Foundation. Anyone
have any idea what that's about?
MR. BURKE: Is IImt a public hearing?
MR. MOFFATT: Yes,
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: What's 1I1e date on it? Is that tlle [2 acres')
MR. PETTY: I not aware of any property issue Madam Chair nothing has come before our office.
MR, MOFFATT: The hearing is October 14,h
MR. BURKE: Where is the hearing tal<ing place?~
7627
Pelican Bay Senices Dh'ision Meeting
October 1. 2008
1611-A-q
MR. MOFFATT: At the Admillistmtion Buildiug
DR. RAIA: That's 1I1e (!lite of the BCC meeting.
MR. MOFFATT: Resolution relating to a petition to disclaim, renouncing and vacating the County's and tlle
public's interest in tile dedication ofllle upland conservation area desigll3ted as Tract I to Pelican Bay Foundation.
MR. PETTY: Madam Clmir, I actually know what that is. That's 1Ile parking right outside litis building iliat they
hope to get. We did have a plan review and discuss it because of the parking issue and our rcquiremeuts for water
marragement and I do believe that IIle area had been dedicated as a conservation area because of the scrub oal<s, which is
subject to mitigation. If you can tfdnsplant or buy other OlJk areas to keep in peLpCtllity you cau mitigate those issues.
believe that's exaclly what the Foundation is doing and that's why you have a public hcaring.
ADJOURN
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Do llml'e a motion to adjourn?
Mr. .Iames Burke movetl, seconded by /)r. Ted Raia anti approved
unanimously to alyourll the meeting.
There being no furtller business the meeting was adjourned by order of.the Clmirwoman at.!: 15 p.m.
7628
161 J.~Frr-
Halaa
Henning T!!> /
Coyle
Coletta ~
/
RECEIVED
DEe 2 3 2008
PELICAN 8A~lftt~~~
MINUTES - NOVEMBER 5, 2008
Naples, Florida
LET IT BE KNOWN, that the Pelican Bay Servioes Division Board, in and for tlle County of Collier, met in Regular
Session on litis date at 1:00 p.OI., in REGULAR SESSION at Hammock Oak Center, 8%0 Hammock Oal< Drive,
Naples, Florida, witll the following members present:
Mary Anne Womble, Chaimmn
John laizw
Michael Levy
Groff Gibson
Ted Raia
JellY Moffatt
Jo]m Boland
Annette Alvarez (Absent)
Also Present: John Petty, Division Adntinistrator, District Ol1ices, LLC; Janice Lamed, District Offioes, LLC; Kyle Lukasz, Field
Operations Marmger, Pelican Bay SeIVioes Division, David Trecker, President. Pelican Bay Property Owner's Association: Tim
Hall, Turrell, Hall and Associates, Inc,; Doug Finlay, City of Naples; Tom Cravens. Mangrove Action Group and Mary
McCaughtty, Recording Secretary, Pelican Bay SeIVices Division.
AGENDA
1O.
II.
12.
13.
14.
I.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
Introduction and Welcome of Geoff Gibson
RollCall
Approval of Minutes of October I, 2008 Meeting
Audience Participation
Resignation of Jim Burke
Admirtislrdtor's Report
Recommendations for Replacement of Pendergrass and Staros
Appointments to new Clam Bay Advisory Committee
Update on Water Management Permit
Financial Report
Chairwoman's Report
Welcome to American Momentum Bank to Pelican Bay
Dates & Timcs for Town Hall Meetings on Proposed Clam Pass Park Changes
Committee Reports
Clam Bay
No Report
Government Relations
No Report
Budget Committee
Date & Time of Meetings
Ordinance Review Committee
Date & Time of Meetings
Capital Projects
Update on Myra Janco Daniels Blvd. Median
Update on Yanderbilt Beach Rd. Bollard Lighting
Update on Crosswalk
Community Issues
Ted Raia Report on Meeting 'MUt SFWMD
Plan Reviews
None
Committee Requests
Audience ParticipationlConunelll's
Adjoum
7.
8.
9.
Misc. C()l!llS:
\
I
'tem#:,
Date:
7629
Gopies to
Pelican Bay Sen'ices Division Meeting
November 5. 2008
1611vt'1
ROLLCALL
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right, I believe it is time to start. Okay. Our recorder is in place. I'd like to say iliat we
are starting here at around one. I'm not sure exactly what tinte it is by GPS standards or anything else, but about iliat time. Okay.
May we have tile roll call, Mary?
MS. McCAUGH1RY: Yes. Let the record reflect iliat we have all current members are present except for Annette
Alvarez, and we do have enough for a qUOTUlll.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Did sbe contact us?
MS. McCAUGH1RY: Yes. Annette said she had grand opening conting up with Nordstrom's and tied up with her
corporate duties.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Thank you. Do we have an approval of tlle minutes of October I sf, 200S')
MR MOFFA IT: Madam Chair, a couple questions on the nunutes, if I ntight It just reflects my difficulty in
understanding tile spoken word, On page 7589, if I undcrsl1md that, Mr. Petty was going to supply us with a website, We had a
long discussion about what went on in tile boord meeting and I know we were going to get a website. I never got one. So I assume
the minutes are either wrong or I don't know.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: No. ActnaIly, I have iliat in my notes to ask about also. It was a website for 1110 Collier
Cmmty Commissioners agendas so lImt we could pel1lSC lmything Umt we tIlought might pertain to this particular advisory boord.
MR. PETTY: And iflllal hasn'l gotten to you, lIml's our fault. We'll get lImt to you innnediately.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I know you will, Thank you.
MR MOFFA IT: So 1Ile minutes are correct.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yes.
MR MOFFATT: I have anotIler one also, It's on 7610. We talked about having solnebody at a future meeting on tile
golf course and tile water. I guess I interpreted iliat WdS going to be, like, tile next meeting like today and I don't see anything on
tile agenda for either Mr. Aqua,iva or anyone else. Is that going to happen or did 1 ntisread the minutes again'! I won't say again
because, apparenlly, tile first tin10 I did 1101 misread,
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Look to your left Do you see our new board meinber, Mr. Gibson'!
MR. GIBSON: That's me.
7630
Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
November 5. 2008
16 1114'1
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: He and Dan Aquaviva lmve become great friends. And I believe Mr. Gibson can probably
answer anything iliat you're going to ask.
MR MOFFATT: Okay.
MR. GlBSON: Well, I'm hitting this tlting flatfooted. And alII can say is iliat Dan is a very talented engineering type.
He's not a personality, not a bondle of jokes, bot he is very knowledgeable in his field. He's been very helpful in the Club Pelican
Bay. Unfortunately, we had to put our ASR on the back burner. I am aware of a proposal ilia! he gave to Pelican Bay Services
Division. And I, unfortunately, was not here last I110llth to listen to the discrrssion. I certainly reel in my ntind iliat there is a way to
mal<e much better use of water witllin Pelican Bay, And I tIlink lI111t perhaps having a meeting to have Dan himself speak to the
group rather limn trying to interpret it from a somewhat teclntieal proposal ntight he a good move for us to consider. Once again,
I'm hitting tIlis tiling flatfuoted, Madam Chair.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: That's okay, In actuality, Jeny, iliat was to he next IOOnlll or the montll after is what John
AsWey said at iliat point. I don~ see it So iliat could be put into the ntinutes if anyone else remembers IImt but I do recall iliat he
said sometime in the near future, either nex1 IOOnth or the l1lOnlll after. Am I correct, John?
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, tlmt's the time frame we were looking to.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: That's what I tllOUght Jolm, do you remember iliat? Jolmlaizzo also remembers dmt
MR GlBSON: There's also another meeting tomorrow at our maintenance area to discuss this proposal further. So
.naybe sometlling will come through iliat
MR WZW: What time?
MR. GlBSON: One o'clock.
DR. RAlA: lfl may, Madmn Chair, litis is a stalfmeeting and not open to the public. So if the board comes in pairs or
better, we have a problem with the sunshine.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: That's right
MR BOLAND: John, I have a question for yon on the same page. I don't know if yon recall tile Clam Bay scenario
because tItere's no report on it Do you want me to bring it up now?
MR PETTY: Madam Chair?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Since we're on iliat page, go light aJread,
MR BOLAND: It says here, top of the page 7611 Mr. Petty asks him a question. The direction lImt tire commissioners
7631
1611M
Pelican Bay Senkes Dhision Meeting
November 5. 2008
gave us was tile new group would give recon>>nendations in tile operation and management to tile CAe. They would be giving
tlreir opinion to tile BCC who would tl>en decide what part lire parties would tal<c. Arc we "xpecting PBSD services to be
tfdusitioned out of tire OpefdtioUS of maintenance?
Now, tile problem is litis new group has now perfomred that. I'm going to ask this for a few of the residents of Pelican
Bay. This new group, I think they probably won't be fonned Imtil December, possibly January, so what's confusing me and
confusing everybody here, we had the maintenance witll the contract with Tim Hall's group till July of neAt year. That contract, and
according to this here, wc have no idea wbo's going to do what now, So litis new advisory. group is going to come up witll some
recorrunendations predicated by what tile Collier County Comntission Board says. That being said, there's a posstbility tile
mangrove sanctuary could go down, go back to where tIley were if 110 one's going to tnaintain tIlem for a year. WlIO'S going to do
tile actual maintenance fur tile neAt year'! You got a limbo part here. And no one seems to be covering iliat in iliat absence. Maybe
tlrere is and I'm confused
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. John, is tIlere a way that we could come back to litis'?
MR, BOLAND: Yeah. l'djust like to know.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: It is a good question. And since people are concemed, I tIlink that's somellting we can
address in a little bit. Okay.
MR MOFFATT: Madam Chair, one other item on page 7615 at tile top of 1I>e page. Mr. Petty had a call into tire
manager's office to discuss tile transition, John's question. At some point. will we hear the results of iliat call'!
CHAJRWOMAN WOMBLE: I believe iliat is about tile board Il1Cinbers.
MR MOFFATT: Yes.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. That all finmels togetl>er. We11 do tlrat. I believe tIrat's ou our agenda.
MR MOFFATT: Good.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay, Any other changes, additions. or amendntents to the ntinutes?
(No response.)
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Ilmve a question Mary, I have a couple of things. Just little things. Nollting much. On
page 75% there and I'm sure it's just typos and inconsistencies, but in tile lItird paragraph with Mr. Petty speaking, it says 1Iley are
special taxing districts. (As read): They are improvemcnt districts, hospital districts, fire control districts, all kinds of districts in
tile state of Florida. 111ese arc independent and Clmpter 189 is basically tile unifonn administrator, procedures, basically general
7632
16 11 A4
Pelican Bay Services Dhision Meeting
November 5. 2008
conditions for all districts. And I wasn't quite sme what tlmlmeant. I tllink IIlCre nJay be a word in or out or maybe, I'm just not
reading it correctly. Can you give me a clarification for that?
MR PETTY: I'll try, Madam C1mir. To me tbe sentence reads tnIC. Florida Slatute 189 does set standards for special
taxing districts, reporting functions, responsibilities, el cetel3, So I think the reference of 189 is correct I think the sentence is
talking about how tlmt is basing controlling criteria of statute over special ta,'<ing districts such as hospital districts, fire districts,
inlprovement districts, et celcra, apply, but I don~ know iliat .
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. t think 1 can figure it out
MR PETTY: Is it possible iliat .
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I think the word "are" - I think the word "are" in there would probably mal<e tile
difference. And I hadn~ seen it until you started .
MR PETTY: Oh, I'm sorry, It should be tItere not they. There are, t-h.e-r.e -- there are improvement districts, hospital
districts, fire control districts. TIren it mal<es sense, thai sentence does, instead of "they."
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. And they are independent and Cbapter 189 was basically thc uniform
administrator. Prooedures are basically gcneral.
MR PETTY: In Chapter 189 you have basic eritcria for how these entities can be establislted or created. Tlmt's a correct
sentence.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. That's not the one I'm discussing. It's the one right before iliat.
MR PETTY: Tbesc are independent -- that is an odd sentence, isu~ il'l
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yes.
MR PETTY: Not iliat I didn~ say it word for word.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I don't think you did.
MR PETTY: I would deletc it Madam Chair, the sentence before and lire sentcnce aftcr - after, Tal<e whatevcr words
have any meaning and apply tIlcm properly in the sentence fOnll3t.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. And where it says (as read): In our situation, since we are greatcr tIlan 1,000 acres,
we would be established by the govemor's office, which is tlle adjudicatory control board, which is the govemor's cabin. 1 think it's
"cabinet." I hope.
MR PETTY: Are we down to the last paragraph?
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Pelican Bay Services DhisioD Meeting
November 5. 2008
161111-1
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Same paragraph.
MR. RAJA: The ne"t sentence.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I tltink it's tIlc word "cabinet" --
MR. PETTY: Cabinet not cabin.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. And 1Ilen - 1Ilenl gel confused becanse I think it's supposed to be, in 189 it can be
created. But it says, in 189 it can't be created by local government or the governor or cabinet unless it is prohibited from doing so
by general law. So iliat's kind of a - which is it? Is it can or can~'! Because if it can't, it can't311}'WaY.
MR PETTY: Basically, what it says is local govemment cannot create tIlese by general law unless proven specifically by
the legislature or goverrunenl.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay.
MR PETTY: Again, I don't know tIlat it's material, You nmy just Want to strike the whole sentence.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay,
MR PETTY: Because it tIlen goes on in tlle next sentence to say, 'only the legislature can create a special district which
is'.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Right. Which in this case is what's going on here. It just didn't follow in too well for me.
Okay. Any other additions'! Questions? Amendments'!
(No response,)
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. Mary, you Imd a lol to cover on iliatlast meeting. So I tIlank you very much and
tllCSC are minor areas. Okay. Then nmy we have a motion'!
Mr. Mike Levy moved to approve the Minlltes subject to the abave
referenced changes anti/or co"ections. Motion was seconded by Mr. John laizzo and
unanimously approved.
---~--~~--
AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE. Okay good. Moving right along, Does anyone in the audience have something tIley'd like
to bring up iliat is not on tlle agenda iliat lIrcy feel tIley need to havc US concemed with at litis point?
(No response.)
7634
Pelican Bay Services Di.ision Meeting
November 5. 2008
1611~
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay, No one's racing to the microphone again. Okay,
DR RAIA: May l?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yes.
DR RAlA: At litis point, I would like to congratulate our new fire conmtissioner who's in the room, Jim Bmke.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: And so would I.
(Applause. )
MR. BURKE: I would like to tIlank all 25,000 people iliat voted for me.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: There's a bunch in litis room. Okay. That just runs us into a segue with tile resignation of
Mr. Bmke who by Collier County conmtissioners past ordinance indicated iliat someone on an advisory board for IIlem could not be
also mminlg as a candidate fur elected office. Aud there was more to it, bot Mr. Bmke fell into IIrat category. And I believe you
had to goolfofthe CAC and us.
MR BURKE: Several have to do the same tiling.
MADAM CHAIRWOMAN: Okay, So, Mr. Bmke, we tIlank you very, very much for all the years of service. It seems
like all the years I've ever been to any of these meetings,. in the old place, the new place, you've been there.
MR BURKE: Don't gel too carried away. I'll reapply.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Good. Okay.
MR BURKE: That will be in your office tomorrow morning.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: The interesting thing is did you reapply for yourself? We bave several places.
MR BURKE: No
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Anyway, Jim, congratulations.
MR BURKE: Thank you.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: And 00 matter how long it tal<es before you're back sitting up here, we tIlank you always.
He's been past chair, past chair of the Clam Bay Committee and probably past chair of virtually every commiUce. Not bodge!.
Were you ever on tile budget? No? He's smiling. Okay. Thank you, Jint. And we look forward to seeing you again up here. All
right. Mr. Petty, I believe you now have some replacement infomration for Mr. PendergrdSS and Mr. Staros.
ADMlNISTRATOR'S REPORT
REPLACEMENT RECOMMENDATIONS
7635
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Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
November 5. 2008
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, if we could, we'd ask you to consider tllese candidates, if you would. They are in your
package. We'd like you to consider first your recommendation for tbe busin<.-"SS representative. We only have one applicant. This
should be fairly quick. TImt's Mr. HlUlter Hansen. He's the only one that's submitted to tile COlUlty, but we would like you-all to
consider the recommendation to the County Commissioners for iliat appointment of. Mr, Hunter Hanseu to replace Mr. Staros ou
litis board. We look for your reconnnendation by vote. This is typieal that once it's been applied for and advertised for and we've
gotten the names, we Imve 45 days to subntit tltis to the commissioners so tIley .
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: FortY'ilne.
MR PETTY: Excnse me, 41 days, to subntit tltis to the colmrtissioners for tlrell1 to consider your wishes on who should
be appointed.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right.
MR PETTY: So if we could, we'd ask ym. to consider tbe business position first,
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right. May llmve a motion?
MR. MOFFATT: I'll move it.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. We Imve a motion on the floor to decide Uml Mr. Hlmter Hansen will be our
recommendation to tlre Board of Collier Cmmty Commissioners.
MR LEYY: I second it.
Mr. Jerry Moffatt move, seconded by MI'. Mike Levy to recommend
Mr. Hunter Hansen of the Naples Grande to the Board of County Commis..ioners for
appointment to the board. Motion was unanimously approved.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE. Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: None.
MR PETTY: Thank you, Madam Chair. TIle second item is for Mr, Pendergrass' position, And we did lmve three
names snbntitted, two of which may be considered. One is llOl a registered voter. And again, tIlose were in your packages and I
believe that is Mr. Cravens and Mr. Gravenborst. And we would like your recommendation for that position as well.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right. We have Mr. Cravens' infonnation and Mr. Gravenhorst's infommtion. Does
anyone on the board have a comment or suggestion to the board?
7636
Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
November S. 2008
16 I 1 ,4--q
MR. MOFFA TI: J ltighly rocommend !\1r. Gravenllorst.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. Can you explain why?
MR MOFFA TI: Ted is very active in tile community, very active in the resident's council, really a moving foroe tIlere.
So he's very well in touch witll what's going on witllin the community. And I tltink tlmt would help litis board and its function in
going fonvard.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. Any oilier connnents? Suggestions?
MR IAlZW: I would nonually support a motion like iliat, bot I also know an individual who's available, Tom Cravens
who's been very good for us as a community. He's very mindful of the Clam Pass p.,uk and all IIle creatures that live in there, and
he's on top ofilia!. I would like to see him continue on iliat on the board. llmnkyou.
DR RAlA: And I wmdd like 10 second that. Tom has been a leader in 1I1e Mangrove Actinn Group. And right now be's
probably the ouly or logical person that we have to fill the void iliat has been created And having somebody on tltis board to
administer, to somc extent, Clam Bay. So I really tIlink I agree that Ted Gl3venhOlst is a very capable person and would love to
have him on tile board, but rightl10w I really see a strong need to fill iliat void. We really don't Imvc any real seientific people on
board.
MR BOLAND: I'd also like to rocommend Tom because, as I stated before, we have a lot of problems coming up in tile
next year and no one lms lire expertise Tom has. And I think he would be a tremendous asset on this board. I guess I'm going to
vote for Tom.
MR. lAlZZO: Well tl>at said, there's still room though. Mr. Pendergrdss is leaving. So IImt leaves an Opelllng for Ted.
MR LEVY: No. No. That's who we're filling right now.
MR lAlZW: Excuse nle? Oil, we're replacing Pendergrass on tltis issue'!
MR. PETTY: Madam Chair, then the next board member..
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: The next would be Mr. Burke.
MR. IAIZZO: Jim Burke is also leaving. So iliat leaves anotIler opening, I believe. So I tIlink tlmt would satisfY tile list.t
No?
MR PETTY: Basically, Madaln Chair, the question posed .....
MR lAIZZO: That should satisfy our list. I mean, if lIrere's no one else on tbe list other ilian tile two iliat we've indicated
here.
7637
Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
November 5. 2008
1611 ~
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Tlral'scorrect
MR IAIZZO: And there's one more operting if I'm correct
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: There will be another advertisement for the replacement of Mr. Burke.
MR IAIZZO: Well, if we have one member waiting to come on, do we still have to be looking for more?
MR PETTY: Madatn Chair, if I could?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Please.
MR. PETTY: If we've gone through the election process. those people that are reserved votes would be stacked in, the
nmnber of votes iliat tIley have. Once you mn out of those, it is by advertisement on each opening.
So Mr. Burke's untimcly resignation would have to be a re-advertisement and we'd have to consider for iliat position. At
least iliat's thc way the COllI1ty is currently practicing the model.
MR. lAlZZO: All right Then I still have anolller lJltestiOIl. I thought our new member here, GeoIf, was replacing
connnercial residents.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: No.
MR. IAIZZO: Then how docs he fit in unless Geoff is a member of this comnmrtity?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yes, most definitely.
MR. GlBSON: Yes, since 1989.
MR. IAlZZO: Okay.
MR PETTY: We've been bragging about his skill set, refurring to the golf course, but I don't know. He lives here too.
MR IAIZZO: Yery good. I wasn't aware ofiliat
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: John, be lives bere, and, not only tlrat, but be's on the board of directors at the Club of
Pelican Bay.
MR lAlZZO: Okay.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: He's also tile chair of the greens comntittcc and knows very, very defiintely and intil1l3tely
the water situation in Pelican Bay.
MR IAIZZO: But I thought he came in on the commercia] aspect.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: No. No,
MR IAIZZO: When I saw him I said tltis is the first time Pelican Bay put someone in here. Yery good.
7638
Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
November 5, 2008
16 I 11\---'1
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Did you think he was mUlting Nordstrom'!
MR GillSON: I haven't nUl anything in teu years.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: He could run an}1hing be wanted to. TOlst me. I've been to those meetings. Okay. We've
got two people on the floor at this point for us to consider. We had two applications tIlat could be considered. Mr. Peabody has
requested our concem and I'm afi-did iliat he's not a registered voter. So we got an okay from .
MR PETTY: He's been passed for consideration. You can't do it
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: And tlmt's .-
MR PETTY: Madam Chair --
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Somcone needs to let him know tllat Okay
MR PETTY: He's been told,
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: So we have Tom Cravens and Mr. Gmvenhorst We just need a vote. Any otller
coll1ll1ents before we do'!
(No response.)
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right
MR RAIA: Excnse me. How many positions are going to be open for the election in March?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Five.
DR. RAIA: There are five positions.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: There are five.
DR. RAIA: But there's no great loss ofvacant-- vacant positions.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: They're coming up
DR. RAIA: They're coming right up. So we want to keep everybody interested in joining us. Okay.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right. I'd like to--
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, I think you've made a motion without a second for one. I don't know iliat we have a motion
for the second,
CHAIRWOIvIAN WOMBLE: That's tOle for Mr. Gravenhorst We need a motion for Mr. GravenllOrst to be considered,
We have -
MR PETTY: You have a motion ou the floor. I think we're looking for a second for Mr, GmvenllOrst A motion was by
7639
Pelican Ba)' Sen'ices Di\'ision Meetin~
November 5. 2008
16/1fV1
Mr. Moffatt.
MR. GlBSON: I'll second iliat. I have Ted also.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay, All right. Now, we lrave two motions on tlle floor, as I recall.
MR. PETry: TIlat would be 1Ile singular one that I heard, Now, we wmild need a second motion for tile other candidate
for Mr. Cravens.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. Do I have a motion dmt we vote on Mr. Cravens'!
MR BOLAND: Mr. Cravens vote now?
MR PETTY: No. We're looking for a motion, sir.
MR. LEVY: I wmild move that Mr. Cravens be recommended.
DR. RAlA: I will second iliat.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right. Now, what they do is expect ns to come up with a number is iliat conect?
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, they're looking for recommendations. If I may suggest you would ask for a show of hands
and we'll count. We'll see who gets the highest number of votes from tile board and iliat "ill be your reconnnendalion.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right. Let's do tlmt. This is interesting, If you would care for Mr. Cravens, since his
name is alphabetieally first, to sit on our board and take tlre vacancy that's available at the moment. please raise your hands.
MR IAIZW: (Indicating.)
MR LEVY: (Indicating,)
MR BOLAND: (Indicating,)
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: (Indicating.)
MR. PETTY: One, two, lince, four, Dr. Raia, were you voting'!
DR. RAlA: Okay, t tltink I see wlmt you're doing.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All I'm doing is getting a vote and whoever fulls in place first will ,.
MR. PETTY : You can ouly vote once just like in a presidential election.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Right. Mary, how nmny votes did we get?
MS. McCAUGHTRY: Dr. Raia, were you voting? You were up anddO\\1l.
CHAIR WOMAN WOMBLE: Let's revote. Would you please raise your hands if you tIlink Mr. Cravens .,...
DR. RAlA: That's why the wording of it was . ... I'm not saying somebody is not qualified.
7640
Pelican Bay Senices Division Meeting
November 5. 2008
1611 Act
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: No. I'm not saying tlmt al all. I'm saying if you would please vote for Mr. Cravens ifyon'd
like him to take litis particular vacancy on tile board. We've got several coming up. So iftltis is - at this time if you would like Mr.
Cravens name to be put toward to the comntissioners as our advice - for that partiCldar vacancy, please raise your hand. TItis is for
Mr. Cravens.
MR lAJZW: (Indicating.)
MR LEVY: (Indicating.)
MR BOLAND: (Indicating.)
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: (Indicating.)
MR PETtY: We Imve foli', Madatn Chair.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: And tIlere's one, two--
MR PETTY: Mr. Boland, Mr. Levy. 1I1e chair, and Mr. laizzo.
MR. PETTY: Mr.laizw,
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay, So we will put Mr, Cravens name Iirst and Mr. Gravenborst will go in the second
slot. And, as we all know, tile Collier County Commissioners mal<e IIleir own choic.."S.
Mr. .ferry Moffatt moved, seconded by Mr. Geoff Gibson
recommending Ted Gravenhorst be the PBSD recommendation to the Board of
County Commissioners for appointment to the board. Mr. Mike Levy moved,
seconded by Dr. Raia to recommend Tom Cravens for the appointment. After a show
of hands the vote was 4 to 2 to recommend Tom Cravens for appointment.
----~------~-----~---~-
MR PETTY: We like tIlcm to keep us in miud.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yes, they do. And I'm sure they do.
MR BOLAND: Madam Chair, I know the County has these (inaudible)
TIIE COURT REPORTER: Wait. I'm sorry, sir. I can't hear you.
MR. BOLAND: -- two people on tile list right? So Jim is coming off next month, We can~ vote on iliat because he just
resigned today; right? So the only one left .
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: No. He resigned in June.
MR BOLAND: He's resigned; right?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yes.
7641
Pelican Bay Senices Division Meeting
November 5. 2008
16 , IJM
MR BOLAND: Right So tllennow we Imve to replace Jim ne:x1month. Okay. The only person left on tile list is Ted
Gravenllorst; right? So are we going out to solicit more lrames or what?
MR. PETTY: Yes.
MR BOLAND: He's saying yes, He's saying no.
MR PETTY: There will be a new advertisemenl placed for Mr. Burke's position.
MR. BOLAND: Right.
MR PETTY: It'll be put in 1I1e paper again. Mr. Gravenhorst's application for litis particular operting iliat was discussed
today doesn~ put him in line for tile next available opening.
MR. BOLAND: Unless 110 one else vohmteers.
MR PETTY: Well, he'd Imve to resubmit his name again, sir.
MR BOLAND: Okay, Let's say Tom gels onjnst hypotlletieally, okay, and Ted's the last name to go to tIlem and they
ask for more inquiries, who else wanls to join tlle board and 110 one goes on, they wouldn't go to autonmtically to Ted?
MR. PETrY: They would either l1XIdvertise or hold off appointmenls until the election process.
MR BOLAND: Okay. So they can hold. It's not antomatic is wlml you're saying"
MR PETrY: It's a process, sir tlmt they go IIrrougb.
MR. BOLAND: I know. ,know.
MR. PETrY: So we're trying to follow it to tire best of oor ability. And currently Collier County is hlUldling our needs as
fur as board member replacements on a per advertisement basis. Had it been an election. they would then be on a tiered list. which
would entille tIlem to be appointed to the next available opening. Since tltis is by advertisement, it's a little bit different. They are
only considered for what is available at iliat particular advertisement date.
MR BOLAND: Okay. llmnk you.
CHAIR WOMAN WOMBLE: All right. And, Mr. Burke, you've already indicated iliat you have pnt yoor name in and
applied. I just want it known that applications for Mr, Burl<.e's position must be in no laler than November 27th which is lIucc
weeks. And, actually, willi Thanksgiving it "ill have to be on the 26th. So Mr. Gra,'enhorst needs to know that if Ire's interested in
applying also. While we're on tIlis kind of topic, those of us who are of the five who are going to be term limited on March 31st of
2009, tile press release will be done on tlre second Tuesday ofDeccmber for that application process and tllOSC people "ill have 28
days to apply after tlle second Tuesday ofDeccmber.
7642
Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
No\'ember 5. 2008
1611,ttT
MR. LEVY: Is tIle Pelican Bay POSl going to have somellting about tltis'l
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Again, in our Pelican Bay Services Division board article, yes. I would tltillk tlmt tIlat
would be appropriate.
MR PETTY: We can. There's no requirement to do so, but certainly it's something we can participate in.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Right Okay. And iliat will be a general election for tlre March 31st term endings. Okay.
MR. MOFFA IT: Madam Chair. who are those five?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: That's on our website, Jerry. I have th"t infonnatiol1. [did not bring it willI me, but it's
listed on tile Pelican Bay Servioe Dimon board website witll tile term endings for each one.
MR. MOFFA IT: Well, Umt ll3Sn~ been updated though.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: No, It has not been updated, Illd tile March 31st ones are tIlere, And you're not one of
tlrem, Jerry, but Groff is.
MR. MOFFA IT: I know iliat but if you look at iliat website it doesn~ have any names.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: No, it does not TImes right
MR. MOFFATT: So iliat's why I asked
MR. PETTY: Madam Chair, if anyone has any questions, all tlrey Imve to do is call the office and we'll mal<e sure tlley
get a copy of lire term list ofboard members and whatever their expiration dates are for tile current term.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. Mr. Trecker, do you have one of those? You ntight want to talk to Da\'e Trecker
right here before he leaves. He has the list
MR MOFFATT: Well, I have a list too, I was wondering ifweshoold read it into tile record (inaudible).
TIlE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. I can~ hear.
CHAIR WOMAN WOMBLE: Please read it into tile record as to wbo will be off tile board on March 31st
MR MOFFATT: If I can understand this, it's you, Madam Chair, It's, I guess, Grolfs slot It's Alvarez. It's the Burke
slot and tile Boland slot One, two, three, four, fi\'e -- iliat's five.
MR BOLAND: (Inaudible.)
TIIE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. I can't hear him.
MR BOLAND: It's four residential and one commercial.
MR MOFFATT: Tlmt's correct.
7643
Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
November 5. 2008
1611#1
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: John. move your ntic.
MR BOLAND: I'm sorry. There will be fonr openings for lite residential and one commercial. TIle commercial is
appointed by the County, ] believe; right? We don't vote?
MR. PETTY: Madam Chair?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: We oller suggestions.
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, if j may, your elections are not by tIle electomte, TIrey are by landoWlIefS, one mtit, and one
vote. That gives commercial the opportunity to vote. We don~ get a great turnout, though, when the clerk's office runs tIlese
elections. We don't get a good response frmn commercial. So 1)1lically there isn't anybody voted ill for conunercial. And in our past
ltistory, lIley've lmd to be appointed. But the option is there for tile connnercial mlits to actnally vote in should they ever have the
time to do so. Most of them don't even know when an election is going 011, It's a landowner -style election, tIlmlgh, should you ever
be asked
MR BOLAND: You know, JoIm, it mal<es more sense, I agree witll what the County is doing. The biggest participants
in connnercial are the Waterside Shop and a hotel. And so a new representative, I guess, the Hilton is now coming in. I hope they
would be represented because I'd like to see the hotels have a representative. Jnstmy personal opinion.
MR. PETTY: Did you just drop a .najor pi= ofbusiness infornmtion iliat the Hilton is conting to town? Maybe not.
MR MOFFATT: TIletinrewe'll replace Staros is 2010.
MR. PETTY: I nnderstand lImt.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right. Jerry, are you finislted?
MR MOFFA IT: Yes. I was just wondering as I was sitting down, you said sometlting, tlle two nominees iliat are up
now, lImt's a decision ilial will be made by tbe commission; is that correct?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: TImt's correct. We are an advisory board and iliat is the affiice tlmt we gave them
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, if I could answer ilia!. Even afier lite election, the election is a straw vote. It is a strong
recommendation from lite people IIlemselves of Pelican Bay. And the commissioners have typieally always honored that vote, but it
is tIlrough appointment in iliat process as well.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: TIJallk you. Okay? John.
APPOINTMENTS TO NEW CLAM SAY ADVISORY COMMITfEE
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, tile next item is simply an update on IIle new Clam Bay Advisory Committee iliat tIlree
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members have been appointed; Roellig, Jinl Carroll, and Marcia Cmvens, I do believe Mr, Rocllig has been asked to join as a
technical advisor. And Mr. Carroll and Marcia Cravens are representing Peliam Bay residents: is that correct?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, iliat's not correct.
MR PETTY: Mr. Carroll I know made it on tIlere.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr. Carroll, Mr. Roellig and KalllY Worley.
MR PETTY: Kathy Worley. I'm sorry. My mistal<e. Katlly Worley. Madam Chair, there is also a representative from
Seagate, but we're just giving you this as we got an update from tile Cornuy for your infommtion only. lllere's no action required.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay.
MR BURKE: Madam Chair, Tahhnan Knnmn, Jr., is tlle second Pelican Bay residential appointment.
MR PETTY: Thank you.
MR LEVY: He said Rocllig
MR. BURKE: Roellig is tile technical.
MR LEVY: Roellig is the technical.
MR BURKE: Roellig-
(Mnltiple speakers.)
THE COURT REPORTER: Whoa, One at a tinle, please.
MR BURKE: Roellig and Kathy Worley are the two technical. That's correct.
DR RAIA: So Roellig is not considered a Pelican Bay slot t1ren?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: No. Tahlman Krumm, Jr., and Jim Carroll.
DR RAJA: Right.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. All right. Is t1rere anything else on the appointments to iliat advisory coll1lcil?
(No response.)
UPDATE ON WATER MANAGEMENT PERMIT
CHAlRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right Let's go on, How about an update on the water management pemtit?
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, I'll try to keep litis one from taking you dO"ll the 'HOUg patlr, We had a meeting tltis
lnoming "itll Soutlr Florida Water Management District personnel in our attempt to validate the process iliat an appliamt trying to
develop Of modiJY their property would go through in Pelican Bay. In the past, all new developments or all modifications iliat had
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anything to do "1th water lnanagement used to go tIlrough the Pelican Bay Improvement District for review and compliance with
our water management permit ",tIr SoutIr Florida, As Pelican Ba)' Improvement District evolved into Pelican Se",ces to the
County, those applications were 1Ilen sent to PBSD, In the last few years we Im,e seen the process lllll askew of tlmt path and go
outside to separate sources. And tile last occurrence it was Cap d'Antibes was a pennil for surfuce water rmloff was sent directly to
South Florida and not through tIre Pelican Bay Services Division. So we arc in discussions vv1th Sooth Florida on how to keep the
process intact SO that all requirements of both their generalized perntit and our site specific pcmlit are lnet We had a pretty good
meeting today. We are cautiously optintistic about the outcome. Ilrave another UlCeting W(1I1 County stall'tomorrow to talk about
several issues. One of which is how better we can at Collier County handle the process of permits conceming water marmgement
issues in Pelican Bay.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Ted, since you were part oftlmt litis moming, would yooIike to mal<e any colmnents?
DR RAlA: Well, I'd like to elintinate No. 10 on the agenda, No. I agree. We had a very fntitfuJ meeting IIrere. And
somehow over a period of linre from IIIe transition of the Pelican Bay lmprovelnent District to the Pelican Bay Services Div1sion,
we gradually lost tile responsibility we have in approving lire tie and the connection to our water management system. This is a
system iliat we paid for through a bond atlbe cost of twelve, lItirtccn million dollars. And it's about $800,000 a year on our budget
And we are responsible for the purity of the water in Clant Bay. So it is only right 1Ilat we have sonre oversee responsibility in
saying how yon tie into the system and you are in compliance. !fl'm not ntistaken I believe iliat Soutll Florida Water Management
District recognizes iliat we are the anthority to approve a tie-in to the system, Even if they give a report iliat the plan they saw was
okay, the mle thing tIley adutit tltey do not go into tile detail that we would go into. Bot lire final approval must come from tile
Pelican Bay Se",ce Division. Having said iliat, I don't want to mislead anybody iliat tlle present plan is where it stops. It looks
from tltis vantage point that it will eventually be in compliance. But the principle involved right now is we have to reassert our
position witll the County iliat lItey mnst recogni?'c iliat we are tile authority in collllCCling to the system. Is tllat more or less the
outcome?
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, iliat was straight on. The issue here is aboot process and reestablishing that we are the
pcopcr rev1ew entity for our water management permit And Sooth Florida is the proper review entity fur tile generalized pennit or
modification iliat (nay be allowed under ours.
CHAIR WOMAN WOMBLE: And, as lllllderstand it that's sometlling iliat ",II be coming up and diseussed tomorrow
with staff?
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MR PETTY: Absolutely.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. All right. I think we're onto the financial report.
FINANCIAL REPORT
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, this is where typically tbe administrator would bring to you the monthly report showing tile
montll to year report, how much we have expended compared to budget. We're in our very first monlll. We lraven't done a lmrd
close yet at the County. So the month of October typieally has no relcvant data. So don't lmve anything to bring to your atteution
today. I can tell you iliat I am talking witll the I11Cmbers of tile budget committee whose m~ng sehedule we will talk about later
on. The agenda will cover tile reserve carry forwards from prior years and what we expect to get when tIley do iliat hard close.
Because if you recall from last year, iliat's wben we got our very reliable mnnbers on actually how mneh reserve was being carried
forward was after the hard close from the Counly. And a hard close means this, iliat's basically when tIley have shutdown any
considered payments lor any existing invoioes on tIleir desks. Currently we're in what they call a soft close, wltich is where they
still consider invoices iliat were issued in the prior year.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay.
MR. PETTY: Madam Chair, iliat's all the administrator has to bring to your attention.
CHAlRWOMAN'S REPORT
AMERICAN MOMENTUM BANK
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right. Thank you. This is a little otf tile correct assigned nmnber on the agenda, and
I'm afraid tIlat he got ilirown into this ratlrer quickly and thorouglrly but, Geotf, we really want to welcome you to our board, and
tIlank you very much for putting your name out for application, and we were very happy iliat you could join us.
MR GlBSON: Thank you.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: So tIlank you very much.
MR GlBSON: Like nrany, I'm proud to be here.
(Applause.)
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: We have to havc a lmnd. All right. A couple of weeks ago there was a grmmd breal<ing
for the American MOl11Cnllnn Bank iliat's on 41 near the financial center in North Pelican Bay. Tiley are talking with us about their
permit needs. And since it is just a grnund breal<ing, it will be timely as we go along fur their interest and tIleir concerns with our
permitting process. So maybe litis is timely tlmt you're talking to stalf tomorrow so tlmt we'll have that in place and remind them of
our situation. The Anterican Momentum Bank is a most welcome new connnercial property. It's unusual for a bank to be opening
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+
1
" I'r!1
at tltis particular time; however, I met several of the people wbo are involved in it. And I'm tluilled tImt they're interested in
Pelican Bay and joining us. So iliat's a welcome to them.
MR MOFFATT: MadamClmir?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yes.
MR MOFFATT: Is that an established bank or is it new?
CHAIR WOMAN WOMBLE: It has offices downtown. They're going 10 ntake 1I1eir district office in Pelican Bay.
DATES & TIMES OF MEETINGS ON CLAM PASS PARK CHANGES
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: We have some town hall mcetings iliat I W'lllted to nmke sure lImt our residents of Pelican
Bay are aware of There's a mccting on tIle proposed Clam Pass Park and the changes thereof iliat have been pnt forward. The
Pelican Bay Foondation Board is oIrering two different times on the same date for people to learn more about the new changes that
they're considering. November I2t1l at botIl nine o'clock in the morning and fom o'clock in the aIlemoon the Foundation is holding
town hallmcctings so iliat people will be brought up to speed on what is going to be considered for the new changes to Clam Pass
Park. And iliat is next Wednesday, 9 a.m. and 4 p,m., November 12th, I just want to bring iliat forward so iliat anyone here who
had not heard about it is aware and can pass that information on to other people.
MR. GlBSON: Where is iliat meeting?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I believe it's here at thc center, the community centcr right here.
MR, MOFFATT: Madam CIiaii!
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yes.
MR. MOFFATT: I tIlink the Foundation board is also bolding a workshop on the following Tuesday, tlle 18t1r on Clam
Pass. That's at three o'clock.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: That's atthrcc? Okay. I was not aware oftlmt. l1rank you.
DR RAlA: And you ntight also mention the Property Owner's Association is having a tooll hallmccting for the
condontiniurn law changes.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: That's correct l1ml's November IltIr, And, Dave, I did not get tlle date,
DR. RAlA: Yes. And that's, I believe, from seven to nine.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Seven to nine on November Iltll is a workshop on condo law, and IIlere are a lot of
clmnges iliat Imve occurred.
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Pelican Bay Services Dl\isiun Meeting
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MR PETTY: That's a fun dale if I've ever heard one. Condo law is just fascinating.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
CLAM BAY
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Well, tile interpretations are wlmt are reall}' fun. Okay. Clam Ba)' Ims no report, of
course, at this point except that we're anxiously waiting to see how our situation goes. And, Jolm, you were interested in knowing
what is going ... .. .
MR BOLAND: My qllCStion is now, since we lrave no more responsibility for Clam Bay, is that a true statement? This
particular board, no conmtittee, we're not doing anytIting. We don\ know who is maintaining it. So at tlIeSC 10Wll hall meetings,
we were kind of restricted. We ortly cortld have one member tIlere or two membeIS tIlere. According to tile Sunshine Laws, it's a
conflict of interest for certain board members to participate. If you cmlld voice your opinion and answer it. I guess wlmt I'm saying
now is we have no more restrictions. Is IImt a true statement?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: That is iffy. We're in a nebulous world right here.
MR PETTY: Madmll Chair, if I could address a couple points, One is, you're stilllicld to Sunsbine on any matter iliat
may come before this board for 'I vole, And since Clam Bay issues may come before this board for a vote, you have to be concemed
about discussing Clam Bay issues witll your fellow board meinbers outside of this meeting. We are not totally away from Clmn
Bay. We expect our transition to start by January. Now, tlmt's wlmt I have to bring up under the Clmn Bay body. If this would be
an appropriate tinte, Madam Chair?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: TItis is very good time.
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, we do Imve a contract witll Tim Hall & Associates to maintain and finish up tile fiscal year
report. He typically does iliat by Christmas, which means it's in our hands by Febnmry at the latest. Knowing Tim, he gels a little
late. But his contract is good witll us until, wlrat is it. the end of December - February. So iliat should cover 1Ile time frmlle. Now,
should tile transition witll tile County take longer than iliat to begin, we will have to come back to you for an extension of
possibilities. You are covering in tllis year's budget for any e:\llCnditure iliat we mlticipated because we did budget at a full year. but
we are doing Tim Hall's contmct basically six months at a time. So we would go to February without problems, standard issue.
Kyle's still monitoring in the field We still have tile same anroml! of funds available to us as in prior years and we are addressing
the situation. So until we are completely transitioned OIl!, tile Sunshine Law \\OUId apply.
MR BOLAND: Okay. l\IIy other question is, now, since the end oftlte year budget till December of this year, right.ne:\1
month?
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Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
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MR. PETTY: We lrave budgeted all tile way through September 30tll.
MR BOLAND: Okay.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Our fiscal year.
MR BOLAND: I'm a little confused there. The County decided to, in lIteir wisdom, tal<e Clam Bay Pass away fium us
because of the markets. I'm not going to go into iliat. At the same time lIJeY said they're going to spread the wealth around and all
Collier County, not just lite residents of Pelican Bay, are going to pay for this, So when docs iliat kick in? In other words, you want
tile residents of Pelican Bay to still support financially Clam Bay for sometlling IIlcy have no voice in, Tlmt mal<es absolutely no
sense to me.
MR PETTY: Madam Chair that is an issue ilial we willlal<e up, We have discussed it with the County staff and PBSD
staff It is tile understanding iliat the new committee will be discussing funding sources as part of tIleir job responsibilities or
consideration items, This board has long said iliat tItis assessment iliat they voluntarily placed upon themselves for Pelican Bay
issues is done so as long as tIley have control over bow it is spent. So that is a question iliat we will be asking tile budget committee
and also wc'lI be asking tile ordinance ""iew committee to consider SIlCb itelllS SO t1mt they can give lIteir reconnnendations. But
wc don't expect that issue to becoUIC hard or yoted on until after the transition is started Because right now, we are still doing what
wc have done in prior years and wc are liandIing it from our staff by these board's directions. We are just staying away from
mal<ing any changes to prior practices at this time.
MR BOLAND: Okay
DR RAlA: Madam Chair?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Ted.
DR RAlA: Ilmve two concerns. One, in our general water nmnagement pennit from South Florida Water Management
District, wc are required to take so many water quality readings throughout tile year in season. Who is actually doing that now?
MR. PETTY: Kyle or whatever person on his stalTlle can delegate it to.
DR RAlA: So we're doing lImt ourselves?
MR. PETTY: Well, for lite water nmnagemeut senices, yes, sir, we are doing it. Tim had some e"1m points added to it,
but historically, we've always done it. Collier County bas. It's tile lab we've been sending it to. TIley used to send them by bus to
Miami, but now we're.....
MR. lAIZZO: At this point we're botll doing it.
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MR. PETTY: No.
MR IAIZW: Tim's doing il as well as our own people?
MR PETTY: No. No.
MR. WZZO: There's only one group doing tltis')
MR PETTY: We wOIk in conjunction with Tim Hall who is our contractor working on our system. There is no
duplication of services in that regard. Tim Ims utilized our water lnanagement requirements to add to his data base, but we've
utilized a 101 of those same stations to give indications of water quality in the bay.
MR. IAIZZO: Tim, do you take water and measure it and do anything like iliat?
MR. HALL: No.
MR 1AlZW: Do yon just use our readings?
MR HALL: No. It's Kyle and his people take all of the actual samples..
MR. IAlZZO: They take the samples.
MR HALL: That have been processed.
MR. WZZO: Shipped onl.
MR HALL: The results are then sent to me.
MR WZZO: Okay.
MR HALL: And we compile iliat data into lire annual report.
MR 1AlZW: So you hold 1Ile facts and tile data.
MR. HALL: Correct.
MR IAlZZO: We are just doing the quality, capturing tbe water quality, setting it up for analysis. You get the data and
maintain the data.
MR HALL: Our job is essentially to look for !rends or any issues.
MR lAlZZO: Right
MR HALL: The services division office has alltbe data. 11rave copies iliat we use in compiling the reports.
MR WZZO: The process now comes aronnd and we see a bad reading, yon tell tlrel11 to add XYZ to the water?
MR PETTY: Madam Chair if I could point litis is IlOt an issue of an outside contractor, and as administrator of tile
outside contractor, I must assert myself
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CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right.
MR. PETTY: This is the responsibility of staff
MR IAlZZO: No.
MR PETTY: Yes.
MR IAIZZO: What I need to know is who puts.. and sends us back lIle reading. We fhen adjust .
MR PETTY: Madam Clmir, ifl could answer. I'm trying to answer ifl bcallowed to.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Go a1lead.
MR PETTY: Thc water nmnagement system is tile responsibility ofPBSD as admittistered by staff, Tim Hall is not a
contractor out of tile water mamgemerit system. Tim Hall is contracted for Clam Bay. He finds it convenient to nse somc data iliat
we've been collecting for 25-plus years. TIle responsibility oftllC water management pcunit is not tmnsferable. We are responsible
for it. We collect lire samples, TIrey go to tile Collier COlOny lab. We are responsible for lIle data management, its maintenance,
and its interprel:ltion.
MR. IAIZW: I didn't even get into iliat, John. I don't know where yon're going witll litis.
MR PETTY: You said 'iftllere was something wrong "ith tlle analyses. When Tim said 'yes'. You said, 'would Tim
ten you what to add to IIIe water', and iliat's where I Imd to get involved, Madam Clmir and specifY ilial it is not going to Tim fur
his analysis. It goes to staff for their analysis, Tim is a secondary source for tile Clam Bay issue, which is the outflow.
MR. IAlZZO: I need to understand the process. I don't care anyfhing more tIlan just understanding the process. If tile
process is he tal<es the reading, be provides us witll the data. .
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: No. John. No, IlC does not. That's Kyle. Kyle does iliat, Kyle takes tile testing. He
provides the data.
MR.IAIZZO: Yon take the data, Kyle?
MR LUKASZ: We send thc samples off to the Iaborntory for analysis (inaumble) -
THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. I can't hear.
MR. LUKASZ: We send the samples and tlren it comes back to us. We provide Tim, usnally twice a year, witll the
analysis to update the water quality infonnation for the anmml report. It's been suburitted to 1I1e State as part of the Clam Bay
Pcmtit.
UNIDEN tit lliU SPEAKER: Kyle, we can't hear you. Talk into tile uric, please.
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Pelican Bay Senices Division Meeting
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MR LUKASZ: We collect tile water samples tlmt are sent off to the laboratory. TIre lmaJytical res>dts come back to us.
We copy Tim's office to update the armual report that's submitted as part of the Clam Bay pemli1.
MR. IAlZZO: Who mal<es the armnal report? Docs he do it?
MR LUKASZ: The armnal report is put together by Turrell, Hall and Associates, Inc. for the Clam Bay permit.
MR lAIZZO: Now, you've got the data, What docs tile darn tell you we're supposed to do?
MR LUKASZ: We armlyze it to see irthere's any spikes in certain areas for phosphorus, nitrates.
MR. IAlZZO: And how do you detemtine how to add or subtract your chemicals? .
MR LUKASZ: Well, tIlere are no ehelnicals added.
MR. lAZZO: There arc no chemicals added?
MR LUKASZ: No.
MR IAlZZO: Then bow do you control tlle readings?
MR. LUKASZ: We would look fora reason, Iftlicrewas, say, a spike in nntrients, we woold look to see...,.
MR IAlZZO: You cut dowo on .,.
MR LUKASZ: .. .,wlrere tile sample was taken fiom and see what particular basin and water maJmgenrent system and
try to find out tbe reason of tile spike in tile armlysis and tile results.
MR IAlZZO: Now, we monilor lire water in two different areas. I mean, we Imve a monitoring system lImt tal<es place in
Clam Bay.
MR LUKASZ: We have ...,.
MR IAlZZO: We have a monitoring system iliat takes place in water management TIrese two are not one and the same
readings?
MR. LUKASZ: There's numerous sample points tIlroughout tile water management system as well as tile five or six
samples iliat are taken in the Clam Bay system of which fOlU of those were taken prior to tile Clam Bay permit We always took
water quality samples in Clam Bay because iliat's tbe final diseharge of 0lU water management system,
MR IAlZZO: So we're actually looking at different areas of contamination or .
MR. LUKASZ: Well, we pull points of six, seven different basis willtin the water lnanagement system. We have water
quality samples at the top of tile system all tile way to discharge and tIlen into tile Clam Bay system.
MR lAIZZO: TIlere is no duplication tlren?
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Pelican Bay Serv'ices Division Meeting
November 5. 2008
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MR. LUKASZ: No. No.
MR IAlZZO: Okay, TImnkyou, That's all I wanted to know, Jobn.
GOVERNMENT RELATIONS
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. lei's move on to the govemment relations. I Imve no report on the agenda. Does
anyone have something they want to comment on from the board. aside from the fact iliat we now have Jinr Burke wbo is in office.
I guess that's tlle most govenunent relations we've got attire moment.
BUDGET COMMfITEE
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Budget committee, we have a date and time of meetings couting up, November 6t1~
tomorrow, one o'clock and December lltlr at one o'clock. Will those be rightliere'!
MS. McCAUGHfRY: Yes, upst.1irs.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Upstain;'!
MR. lAlZZO: Upstairs in a small room.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: And we have lIle Ordinanoe Review Committee.
MR BOLAND: Jobn had.. . Oh, excuse me.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Go ahead, Jolm.
MR BOLAND: On the dates and times of meetings, are we going to discuss tIlat now or wait until tomorrow's meeting'!
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: For another time or YOllmean llext month's nlCeting?
MR BOLAND: No. No. Tomorrow's set for the next meeting. Going forward, you want to discuss it bere or do you
want to discuss it at the budget meeting with the people at the comutiltee?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: I tIlink at the budget meeting wmdd be better. Bnt at least we do know tomorrow is the
next meeting, one o'clock here. Okay. TIle Ordinanoe R",iew Committee is slated to meet November 25th at one o'clock here
upstairs, And, again, December 23rd unless we come across some problems ",th IIle sebeduling, but tomorrow and November
25th, one o'clock, upstairs.
MR. MOFFATT: And tile second date'!
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: TIle second date would be December 23rd. I kind of suspect we may run into some
problems tIlel\:, but w\: don't know yet.
MS. McCAUGHTRY: Madam Chair, ifl nmy?
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CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE Yes.
MS. McCAUGHTRY: I spoke to MargafCt here about seheduling. TItis time slot is the fourth Tuesday at one o'clock
when tile Budget Col1lll1ittee used to meet last year. She has held thai slot for us, She's lmving a problem, The Foundation is
doing some work and shuffling a 101 of meetings over here to her. So if the new Ordinance Review Col1lll1ittee can continue 10 meet
on lIrat Tuesday at one o'clock, you're slated all through January
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: So we're all set? Okay. Thank you, Mary. All right. I'd like an update on the Myra Janco
Darllels Boulevard median.
UPDATE ON MYRA JANCO DANIElS BLVD. MEDIAN
MR. LUKASZ: If you look at lIlC PowerPoint lImt aclually does include IIle projects. I see on tile agenda tllere is the
median work.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Would you ralller go to Oakmont first?
MR. LUKASZ: Yes. Oakmont Parkway inigation iliat work hegan litis week. The project should he complete witllin 60
days. I know tIlere's been some questions about it. They did the staking and locating over tIlere to locate tile other lltilities. They
put a lot of flags in along the sides of tile road. TIlere's really minimal excavation along tbe sides. Most of the work will take place
witllin the medians.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. So lIlOSC people who Imvc been concemed about all 1Ile flags?
MR LUKASZ: When the contractor called it in. he said Oakmont Park, where some of the utilities come ont there to do
the flagging, they lnark cverytlting. There are a couple of locations, like, where there's a meter on tlle side of tile road, tlley've got to
dig tllat up to mal<e tile connection. And tIlen over UlCre in front of Jamestown between Greenlree and Pelican Bay Boulevard, on
the side of tile road they have all tile rest of tile work 1Ilere will be witllin tile median.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. Thank you.
UPDATE ON VANDERBILT BEACH RD. BOLLARD UGHTING
MR. LUKASZ: TIle next project I've got is Yanderbih Beach Road Bollard lighting, And iliat work is actually
completed The only tiling we're waiting for is FP&L to set tlle meter which might acllmlly be in place and tlrat work will be
completed.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. Thank you.
MR MOFFATI: Kyle, can I ask an educational question? In 30 seconds or less can you telllnewhat ilia! lighting is and
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Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
November 5. 2008
where it is?
MR. LUKASZ: Okay. It's Bollard Lighting. That's tile post ligbting iliat goes along the sidewalks. We Imve some along
Odkmont and up by Ridgewood and it runs along tlle sidewalk between North Point Drive and the driveway into the community
park.
MR LEVY: On Yanderbilt Beach?
MR. LUKASZ: Aloug Yande,bilt Beach Road.
MR PETTY: Pelican Bay Boulevard. tmtin entry?
MR. LUKASZ: Well, we have similar lights in place at Ridgewood Drive and Pelican Bay Boulevard and also on
Oal<mont Lake Bank This new lighting is specific 10 tbis project is what's OIl Yanderbilt Beach Road and that's betwccn North
Point Drive and tile driveway into lIle community park.
MR lAlZW: Kyle, they were picked for what specific interest? Was it more lighting or decorative lighting?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Security as I recalL
MR LUKASZ: The Breal<watcr coll1ll1unity bad brought up security issues and the project came before this board.
MR WZZO: More lighting?
MR LUKASZ: Partially for security purposes.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: We voted on it, John.
MR. IAlZZO: I realize,
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: It was security. Yes.
MR WZZO: W1rat are we going to get out of litis more security, hopefully? And better lighting?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Additionalligbting on the sidewalk I mean, yon know, Bollard Lighting is sometlling for
the sidewalk
UPDATE ON CROSSWALK ON MYRA JANCO DANIELS BLVD.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: How's Myra Janco Daniels Boulevard going?
MR. LUKASZ: The modification has been made to put an existing pennit in place. And we have plans for tile crosswalk
and tIlose were subntitted to the County. The modification has been made to tbe right.of-way permit to now include iliat crosswalk.
The County's real property department is working on getting the easement so iliat we can get the power supply from TieITa Mar
over to Myra Janco Daniels for the power for iliat as well as some bubblers iliat are going in the Ial<e tbere. So right now we're
7656
Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
November 5. 2008
-1:6 1-1 A9
working on 1I1e easement and tile pennit lias been modified.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Kyle, thank you.
MR LUKASZ: I would c~-pect it's probably going 10 be 3() to 60 days on getting tile easement and we'll be able to start
iliat work.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Can you teU me exactly where iliat crosswalk is located? Is it uorth of tlle entrance into
lIle Bridgeway YilIas or .
MR. LUKASZ: No. It would be on tIleir south comer.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay.
MR. LUKASZ: Across to the east side. And there's a little tip of median there and tlmt's going to have to be lx,cked up
approxilnately 3 feet or so to nmke way for a crosswalk
MR IAlZZO: TIlere's some work going on, It's outside our jmisdictioll. I see some outside contractors working right on
Pelican Bay Boulevard as you go towards the Philhannonic, lll3ybe a block or so before tIlere's a comer.
MR LUKASZ: By Creighton Road?
MR. IAIZZO: Yeah. What's going on'!
MR LUKASZ: FP&L was doing some work down there.
MR lAlZZO: And tl.en coming towards tile center tIlere was anotIler big truck doing some hea\y'<1uty work on tile "...
MR LUKASZ: On iliat same end ofPclican Bay Boulevard?
MR. IAlZZO: .... . Pelican Bay Boulevard coIning towards this end, towards tile northem end.
MR LUKASZ: The ntility department Imd a contractor doing some water line work. It's up near tile .....
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Is 1I,at where you're talking about, 101m'!
MR.IAIZW: Yes.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay.
MR lAIZZO: This was work (inaudible),
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Kyle, would you please e:q,lain what an ROW pennit is.
MR. LUKASZ: That's County light-of-way pennit.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Right. Thank you. And IIlere's one oilier thing I want to ask. you about too. There was a
gentleman here earlier a few months ago iliat wanted to know if 1I1ere was a way to lnal<e tile right-hand lane heading east and 1I1en
7657
Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
November 5. 2008
16111f11
soutlr onto Myra Janco Darticls Parkway, if tlmt could be turned into a right-hand lane only. And f'mlooking at that for several
days now. And I would suspect that iliat ntigbt be a little bit of a problem, but thallefl-hand turn lane has a U-turn arrow in it only,
I lItink defiltitely we need to nrake a strdight and feft-hand lum. WOllld that be possible? It looks to me like it's only a left-hand
turn.
MR LUKASZ: Right. WelL iliat doesn't line lip with the through lane across on the other side though.
CHAlRWOMANWOMBLE: No.
MR LUKASZ: It was basieally to mal<e a left hand. Really you can only mal<e a lj-tum. It couldn't be straight through
because IIlere would be no additional lane on the other side of tile intersection.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: WelL that was one of the reasons I wanted to hearyOll say that. And I also thought ifwe
did put tire right-hand turn only, tlmt would be kind of confusing at iliat point I thought it was a good idea, but tlle more I watched
people coming to that intersection, iliat's how I know wltere lite bench is iliat we..
MR LUKASZ: That's further on for making 1Ile right-hand turn, And ifYOll're familiar witll tile intersection, you kind of
go on the left-hand side.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Right. I tItink lnaybe tile people who arc coming ll'ack early or are not familiar witll litis
area, sometinlCS tIley have trouble witll iliat, but iliat's ahnost notlting compared to what happens on the ne:\t Olte going east past
tire PhitIlamrortic.
MR. LUKASZ: Right
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: That's more exciting yet. Okay. Thank you, Kyle. Thank you very much.
DR. RAlA: Madam Chair?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Yes.
DR. RAlA: FP&L is increasing their rates nc"t year 15 percent or sometlting I heard. I'm just wondering if, as we do
additional lighting in the crosswalk, if we can look into solar panels to see what the cost differences are. Everybody else is going
green. I tIlink it ntight not hurt us to at least take a look at it. John is that all right, John Petty"
MR PETTY: I'm always open to new ideas, sir.
DR. RAlA: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right. Thank you, Ted, No plan reviews. Anyone Imve a comment?
(No response.)
7658
Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting
November 5. 2008
16/1*'1
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: COJmruttec requests?
(No response.)
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Audience participation'!
MS. PETKER: SeIl1l3 PetI<er, P"",t-k.e-r. I'm just a little confused. If Pelican Bay Services Diyision has responsibility
for water qnality in CIanI Bay and litis wbole issue of putting up markers allowing motor boats into iliat area, it's going to affect
water quality, isn't it?
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: It very wcll conld, but IImt will no longer be our venue.
MS. PETKER: But we are responsible for tile water quality.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Well, at litis point we are. but as soon as lire new committee comes into being, lIren it will
be upon them to mal<e advisement to the Board of Collier COImly connnissioners through Gary McAlpin's group as to what should
be done, notns. Am I correct, Mr. Petty?
MR PETTY: Madam Chair, I'm sure you arc correct in iliat the new group will certainly have its opinions, Our water
lnanagement responsibilities will stay with us. And one of tile reasons why we nmy take so nmn)' sanrples is so iliat we can tell
whether we're a contnbutor or wbether the source of. lire nutrient loading that hit Clam Bay comes Iiom another source. So if, let's
say, phosphates went up in Clam Bay, we would have records indicating wbetller it came Iiom our surface water managemcnt
system or possibly from somebody else, So we still arc lreld responsible fur our surface water runoff, but we are not responsible for
anybody else's actions in Clam Bay. Just our own.
MS. PETKER: What about oil, pardon nre?
MR WZZO: That doesn't come Iiom within the community. We arc only concemed witll what contaminants we
provide to lire system. If tlmt's outside 1Ile system, we have no control of iliac
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Mr. Cravens.
MR CRA YENS: Yes. Where is tile bank exactly going to be located'!
CHAIR WOMAN WOMBLE: On the north side of Pelican Bay Boulevard on tile north end. You know bow Pelican Bay
Bonlevard is a big U, and it lras two entrances or three enlmnces to 41.
MR CRA YENS: Yes.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Okay. The north end of Pelican Bay Bonlevard.
MR.IAJZZO: Marketplace?
7659
Pelican Bay Services Dhision Meeting
November 5. 2008
16 I 1#1
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: It's in IIle fumncial center area. Well, there's another one.,..
MR CRAYENS: Is iliat going...
MR MOFFA TI: It's a vacant lot between the financial center and the Marketplace. It's tile lot tlmt's sitting there for
BrandY',me.
MR CRA YENS: Yon may want to go there and look at it because it is lIle last untouched land. And that's exactJy what
most of Pelican Bay looked like before 1973 or 4, whellCVer tile developmcnt started. It's kind of a neat placc_ It's got a lot of
exotics in t1rere now, but it's worth going to see. Tlmt's wlrat we origina!l)' were. Also, one lither tiling I wanted to mention to you,
lImt beforc Pelican Bay was devcloped aIler Yanderbilt Beach Road was buill in 1952, tllCre were at least two occasions where
lightning struck and it bumed all lI,e way up to Seagate, They didn~ lmve any equipment to stop it. And iliat's what tIlis
emironment tlmt we live in today was like tllen. So chock it out bclOre it's gone.
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: Tlmnk you. Tom. Any otlrer connnents?
(No response.)
CHAIRWOMAN WOMBLE: All right. May I havc a motion iliat we adjourn?
----~--~------~~
Dr. Ted Raia moved to adjourn the Meeting, .<econded hy Mr. Geoff
Gibson. Motion was unanimously approved
There being no furtIler business tile meeting WdS adjonmed by order of tire Chair at 2:20 p.m.
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC., BY CAROLYN 1. FORD,
RPR, FPR AND FORMATTED BY MARY MCCAUGfITRY, RECORDING SECRETARY. PELICAN BAY SERVICES
DIVISION.
7660
Piala .J;;!F~ t 16 1 1 " _.i
Halas 4/ /~...Jl A-fO
Henning rJj~""'" RECEIVED
Coyle / DE
Coletta ~ C 2 2 2008
MINUTES/OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUN'WrdOfCoUlltyCQIl .
RURAL LANDS STEWARDSHIP AREA REVIEW COMMITTEE ""I$Sion.,s
North Collier Regional Park, 15000 Livingston, Conference Room A of the Administration
Building; December 11, 2008
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Rural Lands Stewardship Area
Review Committee in and for the County of Collier, having conducted Business herein, met
on this date at 9:00 A.M. in REGULAR SESSION at the North Collier Regional Park,
15000 Livingston, Conference Room A of the Administration Building, with the following
members present:
CHA]RMAN, Ron Hamel
VICE CHA]RMAN: Neno Spagna
Brad Cornell
Gary Eidson [arrived about ] 0:00am]
David Farmer
Dave Wolfley
Tom Jones
Tammie Nemecek
Jim Howard
ALSO PRESENT: CDES staff members Thomas Greenwood and Mike DeRuntz of the Comprehensive
Planning Department, Jeff Wright of the Assistant County Attorney's Office, Norman Feder and Nick
Casalanguida of the Transportation Division, Laura Roys of the Engineering and Environmental
Department as well as approximately 25 members of the public.
I. Call Meeting to Order
The meeting was called to order at 9:03AM by Chairman Ron Hamel.
II. Roll Call
Roll call was taken, and a quorum was established as 9 of II members were present [Gary Eidson
arrived at 10:00am], with Fred N, Thomas, IT. absent.
III. Approva] of Agenda
David Farmer moved to approve the agenda as presented and seconded by Bill McDaniel-
Unanimously approved
IV. Approval of Minutes of the November 10, 2008 Meeting. Brad Cornell moved and Tom Jones
seconded to approve the minutes as distributed, Upon vote, the motion carried unanimously.
Y. Presentations. See Attachment A to these Minutes.
A discussion ensued by the Committee members concerning Attachment A and other related matters
with the following consensus:
I. Public Meetings with the EAC, CCPe. and BCC: Public meeting d~~~ te_w the Phase
II Report are: EAC [9:00am January 29th] and CCPC [8:30am TailUary 28th/January I I _
30th] both in Rooms 609/610 of CDES and to the BCC willo.,:he]d beginninl! at CH ~t Oc;
9:00am on March ]6 with a carryover to March 17 in the B~~i.hambers. pUblicl~ll0A-11
liPage
Copies to:
.
1611~lD
meetings will be legally advertised with a court reporter and television and posted
and advertised so that members of all the appropriate and actively involved standing
and ad hoc County committees can participate,
2. Comrrtittee attendance at these meetings: The consensus was that members should be
present at these meetings to provide support and rationale for the proposed GMP
amendments where needed as the Comrrtittee has spent approximately 45 hours in public
reviewing the RLSA Overlay.
3. Committee meeting in Februarv. The Committee decided to meet in February after the
EAC and CCPC have each provided comments and recommendations to be transmitted to
the Board.
4. Comrrtittee meeting in March. The Committee decided to meet in March after the March
16/17 Board meeting and, if approved by the BCC, to start work to commence the GMP
amendments.
5. Committee role after the Phase II Report is submitted to the Board and DCA. Committee
members appeared to indicate that they would like to continue as an advisory group through
the Growth Management Plan amendment process wltich would require the Board approval
to extend their original terms beyond the current extension expiring on April 24, 2009. The
Committee was originally appointed on October 24, 2007.
6. Phase II Report Contents. The contents of the Phase II Report will remain unchanged,
unless changed by the Committee.
7. Phase II Report distribution. The Committee wished to have the Phase II Report in the
hands of the EAC, CCPC, and BCC at the same time as soon as it is copied following
Comrrtittee approval of the final document.
Brad Cornell moved to: I) have the Committee reconvene in February following the EAC and
CCPC public meetings; 2) meet following the March 16/17 Board meeting; and 3) to request that
the Board extend the term of the Committee to allow the Comrrtittee to function while the GMP
amendments are underway. Tom Jones seconded the motion, Upon vote, the motion carried
unanimously.
Following discussion of the fact the Board did not take action on the Comrrtittee's November 24,
2008 letter [Attachment B to these Minutes] requesting a special GMP amendment cycle the
following action was taken. Bill McDaniel moved and Brad Cornel seconded to resend the
letter of November 24, 2008 to the County Manager for consideration under the County
Manager correspondences section of the December ] 6th Board Agenda. Upon vote, the motion
was carried unanimously.
VI. Old Business
A. Review of Draft Executive Summary to BCC to accompany the Phase II Report.
Tom Greenwood stated that this Executive Summary [now scheduled to go to the BCC for
the March 16 meeting] will change and will include comments from the EAC, CCPC as well
as the entire Phase II Report. The revised Executive Summary would likely come to the
Comrrtittee in February. Tom Jones stated that he had issue with: I) the reference on page 2
that "the amendments are synonymous with private irtitiated GMP Amendments"; 2) that
there was only :"Cursory staff inpllt"; and on page 10 under Recommendations, that the
Phase II Report "is a preliminary planning tool". No Comrrtittee action was taken.
B. Review of draft Phase II Report. Tom Jones stated that he would like to offer some
changes to the layout and formatting of the Phase II Report and handed out a one-page
proposed set of format changes to make the document for user friendly, which includes:
I, Cover letter. Replace the existing cover letter with the November 24 letter signed by
Ron Hamel addressed to Tom Henning.
21Page
16 , 1 tt\()
2. Phase] Report. Include the Phase] Report with the Phase II Report.
3. Phase II Report. Suggested changes and additions including relocation of the
proposed Transportation Element Policy 3,7; inclusion of the revised Worksheet;
inclusion of the revised Attachment C [Stewardship Receiving Area Characteristics];
and miscellaneous changes including making Appendix reference to letters from the
various organizations rather than including the text from these letters in the currently
referred to "Long Yersion". Tom Jones moved and David Woljly seconded to direct
staff to reformat the Phase II Report as stated above and as detailed on the handout
provided by Tom Jones. Upon vote, the motion carried unartimously.
4. Additional Staff comments. The Committee asked staff to either remove its
additional comments or to highlight and explain why they were included since they
were not previously discussed by the Committee.
Tom Jones moved and David Woljly seconded, to direct staff to make the above proposed
changes to the Phase II Report and provide copies to the Committee for the December IS
meeting. Upon vote, the motion carried unartimously. Tom Greenwood stated that the Committee
would not likely see hard copies until the December 1Sth meeting but that he would put on the
web site as soon as it is available for review.
VII. New Business
VIII. Public Comments.
IX. Next Meeting. Mr. Hamel stated that the next meeting will be held on Thursday, December IS,
200S, in Conference Room A of the Administrative Building of the North Collier Regional Park located
at 15000 Livingston Road from 9am to 12 noon for the purposes of finalizing the review of the draft
Phase 2 Report. He stated that he may not be able to attend due to the illness of his mother.
X. Adjournment
The meeting was adjourned by acclamation at 12:06 PM.
Rural Lands Stewardship Area Review Committee
Ron Hamel, Chairman
These minutes approved by the Committee on
amended
, as presented
or as
3lPage
J'} r T c>:J_cJ-) /Y;erJ- Jf
Co~T... <::;:OU-n'ty
16 I 1 ~\O
To:
Rural Lands Stewardship Area Review Committee
From:
Thomas Greenwood, AICP, Principal Planner
Date:
December 8, 2008
Subject:
Supplement to Agenda for December 11, 2008 meeting
Chairman Ron Hamel and I discussed the following today and felt it important for the entire Committee
to discuss these and other related matters related to the future of the Committee during its December
11th meeting.
The Committee can decide where on the Agenda it wishes to discuss this.
1. Presentation of the Phase II Report to the EAC [January 29th] and CCPC [January
28th/January 30'h] both in Rooms 609/610 of CDES and to the BCC [in March with a
date yet to be determined]. These public meetings [court reporter, TV, advertised) may well
take 1 day with the EAC [with 1 carryover day]; 2 days with the CCPC; and 1 day with the BCe.
Staff's involvement in the public meetings may be limited to a brief review of some of the maps
and tables contained in the Phase I Report. as introductory to the Phase II Report. However, the
Phase II Report, being Committee-driven, should be presented by the Committee.
Given the large amount of time involved by the Committee in such public meetings [estimated
20-25 hours January 28-30 and about 6-8 hours in March], the Committee is requested to
determine whether the entire Committee should be involved in such meetings OR whether it
wishes to have a smal/er group of Committee members be involved in these public meetings.
ACTION REQUESTED.
2. EAe and eepe recommendations to the Bee. Both the EAC and the CCPC have indicated to
staff on December 3 and 4, respectively, that they wish their respective comments and
recommendations on the Phase II Report to go to the BCe as separate documents. Staff will
share those comments and recommendations with the Committee when they are ready.
However, will the Committee wish to meet to review those comments [likely in mid February]
and prepare any answers or rebuttals OR provide such to the BCC during the March BCC
special meeting?
ACTION REQUESTED.
16 , 1 fMo
3. Future Role of the Committee and Committee term limit. The Committee's 6-month extension
ends on April 24, 2009. The Committee's Phase II Reoort directive comes from BCC Resolution
2007-305A [October 24,2007] and states:
"2. Review the RLSA Overlay and make recommendations to increase the effectiveness of
the Overlay"
IF the Committee wishes to stay functioning as an ad hoc advisory committee to the BCC beyond
April 24, 2009, it needs to decide whether it wishes to stay involved through:
. The Growth Management Plan Amendments..nlikely through 2009 into early 2010
. Land Development Code Amendments...likely in 2010
Depending upon the Committee's feeling about continued involvement, the Committee MAY
wish to make a recommendation to the BCC to extend the term of the Committee an
appropriate amount of time.
ACTION REQUESTED.
16 11 A\OA H-~ch~
b;
November 24, 2008
The Honorab]e Tom Henning, Chairman
and Members of the Collier County Board of County Commissioners
3301 East Tamiami Trai]
Naples, Florida 341]2
Dear Chairman Henning and Commissioners:
The Collier County Rural Lands Stewardship Area ( the "RLSA Overlay") was created in
2002 through a collaborative community based planning process intended to protect natural
resources, retain viable agriculture and promote compact rural mixed use development through
an incentive based land use system on approximately] 95,000 acres in eastern Collier County.
The RLSA Overlay was desigrred to be a long term strategic plan with a planning horizon
year of 2025, Many of the tools, techniques and strategies proposed in 2002 for the RLSA
Overlay were nonetheless new, innovative, incentive based and untested, A comprehensive five
year review of the RLSA Overlay by Collier County was therefore proposed to assess
participation in and effectiveness of the RLSA Overlay in meeting its Goals, Objectives and
Policies,
The Board of County Commissioners created a citizen oversight committee (the "RLSA
Committee") in 2007, The RLSA Committee is comprised of a diverse group of local citizens
dedicated to creating a balance between agriculture, development and environmental sensitivity
based on the principles of rural stewardship articulated in Florida's Rural Lands Stewardship
Act. Its members include environmental advocates, farmers, professional planners, rural land
owners, community activists and advisory board volunteers, I am privileged to serve as its
Chairman.
The RLSA Committee has met over twenty times during the last year in publicly
advertised work sessions that typically lasted no less than three hours each. Public participation
was encouraged; diverse opinions were solicited; ehal]enging questions were welcomed; expert
testimony was offered; absolute transparency was preserved; the sunshine law was observed; and
nearly every question posed, comment offered and recommendation made was considered.
Representatives from a broad range of interest groups, including Audubon of F]orida,
Collier County Audubon Society, Defenders of Wildlife, Florida Wildlife Federation, The
Conservancy of Southwest Florida, the Collier County Transportation Department, the Collier
County Community Development and Environmental Services Department, the Collier County
Comprehensive Planning Department, the Eastern Collier Property Owners and others vigorously
participated. Memoranda submitted by representatives of the Collier County Planning
Commission, the Collier County Environmental Advisory Council, the Sierra Club, The
Conservancy of Southwest Florida and the Department of Community Affairs were vetted. The
RLSA Committee was ably supported throughout our process by dedicated county staff who
documented the committee's work in detailed and voluminous public records.
16/1~
The Honorable Tom Henning, Chairman
and Members
November 24, 2008
Page 2
The RLSA Committee devoted the first three months of its existence to a quantitative
assessment of the effectiveness of the RLSA Overlay in meeting its Goals, Objeclives and
Policies, The resulting Phase I Technical Review was thereafter furnished to the Environmental
Advisory Council, the Planning Commission, the Board of County Commissioners and,
ultimately, the Department of Community Affairs. The Phase I Technical Report concluded that
significant progress had been made in achieving the RLSA Overlay Goal.
It also provided the foundation for the RLSA Committee's Phase II qualitative evaluation
of ways in which the RLSA Overlay Growth Management Plan Policies could be improved to
more effectively implement the program's overriding Goals and Objectives and achieve the
RLSA Committee's Project Management Plan mandate to consider "potential opportunities and
amendments to the Growth Management Plan". As part of Phase II, the RLSA Committee
received expert testimony from the following pre-eminent industry leaders in their respective
fields:
Dr. Fritz Roka, Agriculture Economist, University of Florida Institute for Food
and Agricultura] Sciences, and Gene McAvoy, Regional Extension Agent,
University of Florida Institute for Food and Agricu]tural Sciences, shared their
findings on the status of agriculture in Southwest Florida and focused the RLSA
Committee on the need to bolster incentives to retain land for agricultural use.
. Dr. Timm Kroeger of the Defenders of Wildlife testified as to the economic value
of protecting the natural environment and retaining agricultural lands.
Clarence Tears, Director, Big Cypress Basin, South Florida Water Management
District, testified as to the vital role the RLSA Overlay plays in protecting
important watersheds,
Eric Draper, Florida Audubon Society, testified as to the use of the RLSA as an
invaluable tool to protect environmental resources at no cost to the public at a
time when the precious few public dollars eannarked for this purpose are harder
and harder to find,
Darrel Land, State of Florida Panther Team Leader, Florida Fish and Wild]ife
Conservation Commission, who is generally regarded as the state's foremost
expert on the panther and as a highly respected scientist, testified as to how the
RLSA Overlay provides incentives to protect and restore panther habitat.
Nancy Payton, Florida Wildlife Federation, testified to acquaint the RLSA
Committee as to how strategies contained in the Florida Panther Protection
Program recently adopted by a consortium of environmental groups and rural
landowners are intended to promote the protection and recovery of the panther
16/1 A\o
The Honorable Tom Henning, Chairman
and Members
November 24, 2008
Page 3
throughout the RLSA Overlay and surrounding lands and how those strategies
could be integrated into the RLSA Overlay.
Dr. Paul Van Buskirk, Van Buskirk & Associates, testified as to his findings in
the "Collier County East of 95 I" study and how those findings fit within
population growth models projected for the RLSA Overlay.
Nick Casalanguida, Director, Collier County Transportation Planning Department,
testified as to the need to develop a plan for a county transportation network that
meets the adopted Level of Service through build out of the county and considers
the location of public services needed to accommodate the build out population,
As a result of the exhaustive public input and expert testimony, the RLSA Committee
unanimously approved the following proposed amendment to the Goal for the RLSA Overlay:
"Collier County's goal is to retain land for agricultural activities, to direct
incompatible uses away from wetlands and upland habitat, to protect and restore
habitat connectivity, to enable the conversion of rural land to other uses in
appropriate locations, to discourage urban sprawl, and to encourage development
that employs creative land use techniques through the use of established
incentives."
As we considered this reconstituted Goal in the context of existing Growth Management
Plan ("GMP") Policies, the RLSA Committee developed strategies to create incentives to
encourage rural landowners to voluntarily:
. eliminate their right to convert agricultural land to non agricultural uses 111
exchange for compensation;
. retain agriculture within Open Lands as an alternative to conversion of such lands
using Baseline Standards (and thereby reduce the size of the "development
footprint" and the threat of urban sprawl in the RLSA Overlay);
. create, restore and enhance panther corridor connections;
. restore flow ways and habitat through a credit generating system that considers
cost, difficulty and benefit value of each restoration type through a newly adopted
tiered system;
impose a cap of 45,000 SRA acres in the RLSA Overlay and recalibrate the credit
system to ensure the balance essential to the sustainability of a voluntary incentive
based program which generates significant public benefits without incurring
public expenditures; and
~I ^ -t"
JL lr-\:..J
The Honorable Tom Henning, Chairman
and Members
November 24, 2008
Page 4
. cooperate with Collier County in its creation of a plan for a county transportation
network that meets the adopted Level of Service through build out of the county
and considers the location of public services needed to accommodate the build out
population.
The RLSA Committee also engaged the public and various interest groups in a rigorous
assessment of each and every RLSA Overlay policy to enSure internal consistency, thoughtful
precision and earefu] scrutiny of the data, analysis and justification for each of the proposed
Policy amendments. We fee] that the work product of the RLSA Committee for its Phase II
Report therefore actually consists of proposed GMP Policy amendments. Further, after extensive
discussion, we concluded that the public proceedings and thousands of man hours of work
expended by scores of interested parties should be recognized.
At its most recent meeting, the RLSA Committee voted to authorize me to respectfully
request that the Board of County Commissioners take the steps its deems appropriate to initiate a
special cycle for Growth Management Plan RLSA Overlay amendments to review, refine and
consider the RLSA Committee's policy proposals, data and analysis, and record of public
testimony in public hearings before the Environmental Advisory Council, the Planning
Commission, and the Board of County Commissioners,
We recognize that each advisory board has a distinctive role and a special responsibility
to make to the public planning process and we look forward to public consideration of our Policy
proposals by the other advisory boards,
We appreciate the opportunity to serve the Board of County Commissioners and stand
ready to proceed in whatever way you believe best serves the people of Collier County.
Sincerely,
l??r)
~.d).
Ron Hamel
Chairman, Rural Lands Stewardship Review Committee
cc: County Manager James V. Mudd
16 I 1 tt-r 0
2, Phase I Report, Include the Phase I Report with the Phase II Report.
3. Phase II Report, Suggested changes and additions inclllding relocation of the
proposed Transportation Element Policy 3.7; inclllsion of the revised Worksheet;
inclusion of the revised Attachment C [Stewardship Receiving Area Characteristics];
and miscellaneous changes inclllding making Appendix reference to letters from the
various organizations rather than including the text from these letters in the currently
referred to "Long Yersion". Tom Jones moved and David Wolfly seconded to direct
staff to reformat the Phase II Report as stated above and as detailed on the handout
provided by Tom Jones. Upon vote, the motion carried llnanimously,
4. Additional Staff comments, Thc Committee asked staff to either remove its
additional comments or to highlight and explain why they were included since they
were not previously discussed by the Committee, The Committee stated that any
additional information provided within the rep0l1 beyond that discussed and agreed
upon by the Committee would nO! be placed within the Report.
Tom Jones moved and David Woljly seconded, to direct staff to make the above proposed
changes to the Phase II Report and provide copies to the Committee for the December 18
meeting. Upon vote, the motion calTied llnanimously. Tom Greenwood stated that the Committee
would not likely see hard copies until the December 18'" meeting bllt that he wOllld put on the
web site as soon as it is available for review,
VII. New Snsiness
VIII. Public Comments.
IX. Next Meeting. Mr. Hamel stated that the next meeting will be hel on Thursday, December 18,
2008, in Conference Room A of the Administrative Building of the North C ocated
at 15000 Livingston Road from 9am to 12 noon for the purposes of finalizing the review of the draft
Phase 2 Report. He stated that he may not be able to attend due to the illness of his mother.
X. Adjournment
The meeting was adjourned by acclamation at 12:06 PM,
Rural Lands~ship Are
on Hamel. Chiirman
on j;:2-:7J>-a? as
These minutes approved by the Committee
amended ~
presented
or as
311'
co
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