Backup Documents 07/28/2009 Item #11
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,__"Embres, -!~~~ph" <Joseph.B.Embres@uscg.mil> Cl6AJ1 &7
RE: cram Pass; -pies wo-rth'-a-tholJsandwords '--.
June 3, 2008 1 :35:33 PM EDT
mrlc@mac.com
> This emailis to advise you that the US Coast Guard has no requirement for any entity to install aids to
( NavigatIOn -in- c~~~ B~{---------- --- -
-----Original Message-----
From: mrlc@mac.com [mailto:mrlc@mac.com]
Sent: Friday, May 23,20084:55 PM
To: Embres, Joseph; Tara Alford: Ryan Nicole; Cornell Bradley; Bonnie Michaels: DonnaFiala@colliergov.net;
aalvarez@watersideshops.com; Johnsusanboland@aol.com; Concol1 @aol.com; Johan Domenie;
laizzo@comcast.net; tedraia@yahoo.com; mi kelevy@embarqmail.com; ed .staros@ritzcarlton.com;
Teedup1 @aol.com; Hoppensteadt Jim; frankhalas@colliergov.net; fredcoyle@colliergov.net;
jimcoletta@colliergov.net; tomhenning@colliergov.net
Subject: Clam Pass, pics worth a thousand words
The following Clam Pass images were taken today 5/23/2008. These
images clearly depict people other than motorboaters enjoying the
recreational aspects of Clam Pass. These activities, historically and
currently enjoyed by many people are often the very reason they come
to the beach. Please consider strongly this valuable part of their
beachgoing experience.
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--- On Thu, 6/25/09, Blass, Susan M SAJ <$usal].M.Blass@usace.armv.mil> wrote: pc 1:/1/7-?t r t'
r22?tA / rW~2CCf
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From: Blass, Susan M SAJ <Susan.MBlass@)usace,arrnyrrlll> (j)Y2/p//a.~7;' C6
Subject: Letter June 9, 2009 be;t
To: tedraiaGiJyahoo.com
Cc: "McElwain, Tunis W SAJ" <Tunis.W.McElwaln@u_sace.army.mjj.>, "Kinard, Donald W SAJ" j/ /~
< Donald. W. Kinard@usace.army.mil>
Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 3:25 PM
Dear Mr. Raia:
Sir,
Yes, the placement of the non-lateral information signs and the canoe trail markers by the Pelican
Bay Service~. Division dOessatfSfyffie-requir-e-mentrefe'rfea to Tn the Department of the Army permit
_..._--------,-_._-"-._--,--_.,._-,-_._~,-.."'--_...._. ----_.__..._.._..._._-_.._----~-_."._.,-.
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No, the _Corps definition _of navigaQ!!i!ycj()es not req~e the placement of lateral navigationsigns that
denote safe passage as defined by NOAA for navigability. - ------- -- -- --- ----- ---- -
---
Yes, Clam Bay meets the definition of navigability as defined by the Corps. All wate~~s_lJ!>J~_cJ t~!he
ebb and flow of the tide meet the Corps definition of navigable waters.
.--
I Respectfully,
I Susan Blass
From: Theodore Raia [mailto:tedralaCc,:yatloucom]
Sent: Wed 6/24/20095:02 PM
To: Blass, Susan M SAJ
Subject: Fw: June 9 Corps letter
Dear Ms. Blass:
I am once more requesting a response to the questions that pertain to your office and responsibilities.
The answers are either yes or no. I am not requesting an explanation although you are free to
provide one.. Again:
!
Specifically, does the placement of the non-lateral information signs and the canoe trail markers by
the Pelican Bay Services Division satisfy the requirement referred to in the Department of the Army
permit? Yes or No
.
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However, does that definition of navigability by the Corps require the placement of lateral navigation
signs that denote safe passage as navigability is defined by NOAA? Yes or No
Clam Bay is extremely shallow with variable depths measured in inches not feet, was not engaged in
interstate or foreign commerce and does not possess the potential to engage in such commerce in
the future. Does Clam Bay meet the definition of navigability as defined by the Corps because of the
above? Yes or No.
The answers to these questions will clearly define the position of the Corps in interpreting the permit.
If I do not hear from you within ten days I shall proceed with a request for a Congressional Review
and an inquiry by the Inspector General why these answers are not forthcoming.
COl (Ret) Theodore J. Raia, MD
--- On Thu, 6/18/09, Theodore Raia <tedraia@vahoo.com> wrote:
From: Theodore Raia <tedrala@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fw: June 9 Corps letter
To: "Susan Blass" <SusanM.Blass(cuusace.army.mli>
Cc: "Stephen Feldhaus" <sf(ivfeldtlauslawcom>, "Jim H" <JimH(cOpellcanbay.mg>, "bob naegele"
<ronlr@naegelenet.com>, "Cora Obley" <G.QraNaplS,':~(~i)aol..I2Qm>
Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 9:42 AM
Ms. Blass:
I am sending this request again for clarification of the important questions I have raised in refernce to
your letter as noted. These clarifications are essential for all partries to understand the issue at
hand, resolve their differences and hopefully avoid litigation.
COl (Ret) Ted Raia, MD
--- On Thu, 6/11/09, tedraia@yahoo.gorn <tedraia@Vqhoo~QJll> wrote:
i
From: tedrala@yahoo.com <tedrala{.,-v~91Joo,.I2Qm>
Subject: June 9 Corps letter
To: "Susan Blass" <SusanMBtass(<,(lusacearmy..,LlJll>
Cc: "Stephen Feldhaus" <sf@feldhauslaVycorll>, "Jim H" <JlrnH@pelicanbayorg>, "Mary
McCaughtry" <MaryMcCaughtry@colllergov.net>, "bob naegele" <ronil@naegelenet.com>, "Cora
Obley" <CoraNaples@aol.cQm>
I Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 3:36 AM
Ms. Susan Blass:
In reference to your letter to Mr. Jim Hoppensteadt dated June 9, 2009 I wish further clarification.
In the second paragraph you use the terms "navigational markers" and "aids to navigation". These
are general terms that include both lateral and non-lateral navigation signs. Specifically, does the
placement of the non-lateral information signs and the canoe trail markers by the Pelican Bay
._._~o_~_~_~, ~,,_.~^ _..__c_.... ,<~..-
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Services Division satisfy the requirement referred to in the Department of the Army permit?
In the third paragraph you clarify the definition of navigability as used by the Corps. The PBSD
understands that definition and at no time was there to be restriction of that navigability. However,
does that definition of navigability by the Corps require the placement of lateral navigation signs that
denote safe passage as navigability is defined by NOAA?
In the fourth paragraph you refer to Sec. 329.5 that discusses the general scope of determination
whether a waterbody is a navigable water of the United States. Clam Bay is extremely shallow with
variable depths measured in inches not feet, was not engaged in interstate or foreign commerce and
does not possess the potential to engage in such commerce in the future.
I am most appreciative of the time involved in clarifying this issue. As a member of the PBSD Board,
the Board does respect the rights of all to navigate these waters as defined by the Corps but is also
concerned for the safety of the boaters, both power and non-power as well as the anglers and
bathers.
COL (Ret) Ted Raia, MD
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Cravens Marcia <goldandrose@mac.com> r/-t D~I'2...~1'tA-t
Fwd: Communication from the Corps ) 't
July 28, 2009 1 :46:08 PM EDT ' IJ' /1/11.1 /IL' ; ,
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To: ochs_l; Jim Mudd; JetfreyKlatzkow@colilenJov,net
Subject: Communication from the Corps
Dear Jim, Leo, and Jeff,
While I understand that the BCC took action this past Tuesday on the red and green lateral
navigational markers, that action appears to have been based upon a misunderstanding of the
requirements of the Army Corps of Engineers. As the following communication from Susan
Blass of the Corps makes clear, the non-lateral information signs and canoe trail markers
submitted to the Corps by the Pelican Bay services Division do satisfy the requirement referred
to in the Department of the Army permit. Furthermore, contrary to representations that have
been made by various parties, the Corps does not require the placement of lateral navigation
signs.
If, as has been represented to us, the only reason that red and green navigational signs were
being required was that they were a requirement of the Corps permit, the now clear indication
from the Corps that these signs are not a requirement of the Corps permit would seem to
necessitate a reconsideration of the County's proposed action in requiring the placement of the
red and green lateral navigation signs.
i
I
i
I As I have indicated consistently throughout this matter, the Pelican Bay Foundation is
I adamantly opposed to the proposed red and green navigational signs. The County's continued
insistence upon the installation of these signs will pit the Foundation against the County
! unnecessarily, and will lead to costly regulatory battles and perhaps even other dispute
I resolution mechanisms. Even though I remain confident that the position of the Foundation
I would be upheld, I personally do not believe that either the County or the Foundation will
I benefit from the County's currently proposed course of action. I urge the County to find a way
I to resolve this matter based upon this new input from the Corps.
I
Best,
Steve Feldhaus
Secretary, Pelican Bay Foundation, Inc.
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_ Fwd: MQ~C!ay'3123, _~~~_:r~leconference with Martin Seeling, FDEP Tallahassee /J
March 23, 2009T2:33:28 AM EoT------- V~:J 1L7
1 /
Kinard Donald <donald.w.kinard@usace.army.mil> II lu./iG~,Y":'
6 AttaCllmEfrifs,2T6 RS-----Save--- ,uSlldes-how--
Donald Kinard, Deputy Chief, Regulatory USACE
Follow-up to call on the Clam Bay Restoration & Management Plan--I realize this IS short notice for proceeding with the Teleconference, but I wanted to
Jump right on the opportunity, particularly after you were said you were available I thought It best to try and go for It first thing Monday morning 3/23. I
called Marty Seeling and scheduled this for Monday morning--anticipatlng you would confirm too (others are confirmed). I tried getting this email out
ASAP Friday, but ran into problems with my mail program and am just now able to "send" We do not have to cover all questions below, but all relate
to the issue. I included a few attachments (not too many pages) for easy reference to move the diSCUSSion along. Recao Martin Seeling,
Environmental Administrator, FDEP BBC is very helpful in recommending thiS Teleconference
Dr Ted Raia, Board of Pelican Bay Services DIvision (PBSD) of Collier County Will also participate. Dr Raia will not suggest any actions or make any
recommendations He will take clarification of this Issue back to the PBSD Board I'm acting on behalf of the Mangrove Action Group (MAG), in Pelican
Bay for over ten years. I'm also acting on behalf of over 1,600 petitioners protesting projects targeting Clam Bay
fil
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~-Purpose of the Teleconference is to clarify requirements of markers/signs appropriate for natural resource protection and boating safety
consistent with the intent of the Clam Bay Restoration and Management Plan,
Teleconference is scheduled O!Li\i!Q!l<i~Uf~/Q~mO_\?:.QQ_~fI:L
prompt-use code 4887710
I scheduled this for 3/23/09 based on evervone's availabilitv with confirmation of all exceDt Donald Kinard (anticiDated)--if he is unable to
confirm we will reschedule it. Thank vou. I hODe we successful Iv resolve miscommunications and gain claritv,
Questions to be discussed are as follows
t)Ch?S F D [' P F:J (:j [Till it Ll'J ~)?}"H:)3 :J() ,i(
Ciam I'ass
VVlli,lt IS [DEP's position on It!qulred rnarklnej!s",l'I';" attai'fldel correspomjences
(;. excerptecj minutes 01 flBSD rneetillCJi
ttlCl U~:;ACE iSSUCCl notice/letter 01 NonCompliancE' tc
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Svs:err'
iill'1gua~Je In IIie Clam F1f:stUfdtIOf) (Jf)CJ al puorlv
)tatc'(j aUiblCjuOV;
Does FDEP permit have specific reqwrements for Sign/markers to prorect natural resources rhe Clam Pass System? Is that
sJgnage reqUirement poorly worded --now belll9 mOdrfIOci-'
Urcl,niH1Ce 1 tnill I Idle speed/no wake lTiimatee prolection
and boating safety ')
Natural Resources Protection Area waterwav2..:
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ent ~11 j , . .T;.lr~l 8 nkJ i8 2. KBi
Marcia Cravens
President
Mangrove Action Group
rmlc@maccom
239-594-8256
This excerpt is page 65 from Clam Bay Restoration & Management Plan with the 1998 proposed flushing cuts.
Cuts were done to open extremely shallow, constricted waterways. Flushing cuts do not fill up except for high tide or heavy rains.
Figure .: 5.2(1: sho,,'s n!p..slilNajJ'i(! G'Jt Gress seC:!;o;;'!1S 'rorTI 1"'" StBt,ons Ehown In
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no€: e~IBtng t..:lal creekg Bre 100 narrow aM 'Shalla\\" Inr ao::e'Ss b~' con','enllonal dre.:ltla
aq'. p-ne"1, t.lcre-o\>er. "lJLand a::ce!lS ill 1tJo: cut area!; 13 ~ot 3\>aIIBb", f,y bBC'; hG..,s or
UP:3I1(i <:0> ~<lV;""C-' equlprnefll I,,:I$t!ng C:Jndl;I(J-$ Iher~tor(':". r"'iimcl eX(';i;y",alICd"l 1(;
aither a diver operatE-:1 3~'s1em or a small barge ,'/slam ,,-,:Y'. 39 a 'Mud Caf
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EXCERPTS FROM PELICAN BAY SERVICES DIVISION BOARD MEETING MINUTES OF JUNE 4, 2008:
MR CONNELL I've had a request to change the agenda around a bit and go to community Issues.
MR. CONNELL Okay. Ted, would you like to go ahead With what you were prepared to say?
DR. RAIA Okay. I put together a Power Point with the help of Kyle, Mary and Barbara actually. I think It might be easier to understand the position that
I want to present to the board in generaL (At this point in the meeting Dr Raia started
explaining his power point as it was projected on the screen.) "As you can see. people enjoying swimming. There's a swift current there but it's a very
safe current Kids like floating In and out on that Okay. This IS a section of a navigational chart It IS the
most recent chart, Most recent update IS the 9th of February of this year It clearly states here, Clam Pass, underneath It reported non-navigable in
1982 This statement has never been amended since 1982 All charts presented this way and the National
Atmospheric Administration is the one that accepts this nomenclature Also you'll notice that there are no navigational signs here,
7439
And this IS an over 600-page document that really deals Just with the Gulf of Mexico. The coast pilot supplements the navigational information shown on
the nautical charts. The sources for updating a coast pilot Include but are not limited to field Inspections conducted by NOAA, information published in
notices to marinas, reports from NOAA hydrographic vessels, and field parties, Information from other government agencies, state and local government,
maritime and pilot association port authorities to maritime So there's an awful lot of people who could have made contact but they disagreed with their
chart that there has to be navigational signs there, but none of these entitles have done so, or at least have been recognized
7440
MR. PETTY: Sir, as you all know, we have some exposure here and that we do take community expression here, And part of our workload is to report
to the County that community philosophy. That's part of our charter We say this and public
comment on community issues, So yes, it is something that you could consider And the Issue here is, do you wish to adopt a non-binding resolution
that you either support or be in conflict with such a project for the community and you would echo that to
the CommiSSioners representing a certain voice of Pelican Bay
MR CONNELL Okay, let's move on. I would entertain a motion to formulate a non-binding resolution to the Board of County Commissioners objecting
to this additional slgnage to whatever extent it can be described
MR PETTY If I could, Mr Chairman, may I suggest if that IS the motion, that It say the slgnage In addition to what is required of the eXisting permit
DR, RAIA: I don't know what IS reqUIred In the eXisting permit I'm a little confused here The permit that we have now
that expires in July, apparently in that permit we were supposed to put up navigational signs?
MR HALL We were supposed to put up Informational signs
DR. RAIA Informational signs are something altogether different
MR. HALL Right
DR. RAIA: So we have been in compliance right up except for perhaps those Informational signs.
MR. DOMENIE The Informational signs are up, which Include the statement that, according to County law that you have to tilt your motor up. Those are
in place
DR RAIA: Great
MR. HALL The problem is the signs were up but the signs were not permitted by the Conservation Commission so they were not allowed to be up so
It'S not our problem
DR. RAIA Now, where is this coming from to put I all these navigational signs, it's not in our old permit We would look ridiculous If you look at those
charts from Wiggins Pass and Doctor's Pass with Just a few signs and what large or motor
craft IS going in Doctor's Pass and sailboats, watch sailboats, we're gOing to put all these signs uP? We'll be the laughing stock of the Gulf of Mexico,
Now, where did this come from?
'rlFRE WERE QUITE /J., FEW PUE3t.;C FiS i i\i HLi CHMJ~,lF L i'v1ARf<ERS
7453
MR. CONNELL Well then I leave It to Mr Petty to compose a letter, which In effect tells the Board of County Commissioners that we'll be coming up on
their agenda or whatever, and send it to everybody that we Wish
MR. PETTY Mr Chairman, I think this is easily understood that we've taken public comment and I can write that in a simple letter and I will also copy
county staff including Mr Mudd
MR CONNELL I've lost track Do you have such a motion?
MS. WOMBLE. I so move.
MR DOMENIE I'll second
MR. CONNELL All in favor? (All affirm.) All opposed? (No response.)
7454
Mrs. Womble moved, seconded by Mr. Domenie and approved unanimously to have staff compose and send a non-
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MR CONNELL Fine, we'll do it. Thank you very much Let's take a brief recess
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_.__< "Kinard, Donald W SAJ" <Donald.W.Kinard@usace.arm-y.mil> 1'1 J4
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__--~E~- M~nd~_y 3/~_~! ~~~_!~!f:!c::~~fe_r~~~_~_~i_!~ Marti n Seeling, FDEP Tallahassee
March 23, 20097:12:27 AM EDT ...-..-.,---. P(H2..~fy flU
mrlc@mac.com " '\ W f CU,lj
This is to confirm that I will participate in teleconference at 0900.
-- . --..--..,.- P' ..-_._. ."--0 ...._..._..._ .._________..___.______'.____.__ -
Donnie
--'-~
--mOriginal Messagenm
From: mrlc@mac.com [mailto:mrlc@mac,com]
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 12:33 AM
To: Kinard, Donald W SAJ
Subject: Fwd: Monday 3/23, 9am Teleconference with Martin Seeling, FDEP
Tallahassee
Donald Kinard, Deputy Chief, Regulatory USACE Follow-up to call on the Clam
Bay Restoration & Management Plan--I realize this is short notice for
proceeding with the Teleconference, but I wanted to jump right on the
opportunity, particularly after you were said you were available. I thought
it best to try and go for it first thing Monday morning 3/23. I called Marty
Seeling and scheduled this for Monday morning--anticipating you would confirm
too (others are confirmed). I tried getting this email out ASAP Friday, but
ran into problems with my mail program and am just now able to "send". We do
not have to cover all questions below, but all relate to the issue. I
included a few attachments (not too many pages) for easy reference to move
the discussion along. Recap: Martin Seeling, Environmental Administrator,
FDEP BBC is very helpful in recommending this Teleconference.
Dr. Ted Raia, Board of Pelican Bay Services Division (PBSD) of Collier County
will also participate. Dr. Raia will not suggest any actions or make any
recommendations. He will take clarification of this issue back to the PBSD
Board. I'm acting on behalf of the Mangrove Action Group (MAG), in Pelican
Bay for over ten years. I'm also acting on behalf of over 1,600 petitioners
protesting projects targeting Clam Bay.
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'-on: "Seeling, Martin" <Martin.Seelin @deQ.state.fl.us> /2Y, { t:..t/[\
-- - ---...---- C,ut}ie(__I:t~~_lIIfon ay 3/23, 9am Teleconfe~_e wit!!_Martil'l~eeling, FDEP Tallahassee IV[~. .' ;;>
, A'>r.t
March 23, 2009 8:03:55 AM EDT .Ii.,~( b<!
mrlc@mac.com
Marsha,
I see that tbl~-9rning's teJ~confer~n.g~wc:ls_s~tleduJedl<?r~~()_~rs~ut_l_ can only participate for 1
hour. I'll have to hang up by 10:00. and would prefer to wrap it up before th-en. . ----.-- -.-
MS
The Department of Environmental Protection values your feedback as a customer DEP Secretary Michael W. Sole is committed to continuously
assessing and improving the level and quality of services provided to you, Please take a few minutes to comment on the quality of service you
received, Simply click on ails fink /0 tile OEP Cus/omel Suzve i. Thank you in advance for completing the survey.
From: mrlc@mac.com [mailto:mrlc@mac,com]
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 11 :55 PM
To: Seeling, Martin
Subject: Monday 3/23, 9am Teleconference with Martin Seeling, FDEP Tallahassee
Martin Seeling, Environmental Administrator,FDEP SBe
Follow-up 10 call 011 the Clam Bay Restoration & Management Plali--! realize this IS shUI11101icc for pror..:t':edillg with the Teleconference YOll had suggested, but I wanted 10 jump right on the
opportunity, pal1icularly after Donald Kinard, USACE said he would do II and was available for the most p,ln all next week, I [hought II beSI 10 try and go for lirst thing Monday 3/23 I called
your otlice and scheduled this for Monday mOl11ing ..anticipating Donald KmarJ would continll 100 (others are conl1nned). I tned gelling this cmuil out ASAP Friday. but ran into problems with
my mail program and am just now able 10 "send" We do 1101 have tu cover all qucstlons below, bul all relate 10 the issue. IllIcluded a few allachments (nut too llIany pages) for easy reterence to
IlIOVC Ihe discllssion along. Recau: Donald Kinard. Deputy Cluet: Regulalory US Army Corps uf Engineers Jacksonville IS the point person for the Corps and is very agreeable to this
Teleconference. Dr. Ted Raia, Board of Pelican Bay Services DIVISion (PHSD) of Colllcr Coullty will also pCirtil:lpale The PHS!) Board member will nol suggesl any actions or makc any
rCl:ommendations. He will take c1aritication of this Issue back 10 the PUS!) IJoard I'm actlllg 011 bellal r of the tvlangnJvc ACIIOIl Group (i'vlAG). III Pel lean Bay ti.lr over ten years I'm also acting
011 behalf of over 1.600 petilloners protesting projects targetlllg ('1;:1111 Bay
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MemorandumFlorida Department of
Environmental Protection
DATE: June 09, 2008
TO: Gary McAlpin
FROM: Lainie Edwards
Environmental Permitting Section
Bureau of Beaches & Coastal Systems
SUBJECT:
I Interpretation of Joint Coastal Permit: Clam Bay Restoration and Long Term
I
Management Project (0128463-001-JC) ~- J
I
C --/---
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The Clam Bay Restoration and Long Term Management Project Joint Coastal Permit was
written with the intent of environmental enhancement. The permit includes descriptions of
authorized activities related to the dredging of Clam Pass and the maintenance of the
mangrove community. It should be noted that this type of interior waterway management is
not a typically regulated under the JCP program. In the future dredging or filling of the
interior waterways will be regulated under the ERP program through the DEP South
District Office. However, the JCP program will continue to regulate the maintenance of a
flushing outlet through Clam Pass, but only when it involves the dredging and placement of
beach compatible sand on the adjacent beaches.
The Joint Coastal Permit (on page two) authorizes the activities included in the Clam Bay
Restoration and Management Plan. This plan references the marking of the main channel
with requirements imposed by the United States Coast Guard (USGS). While the JCP__~
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permit does authorize this activity through adoption of the Plan, it does not require it, and
--u1e Department will rioT seekcompliance action overthis-Ts-sii-e.-As statec{lflthepermit,--
"the Permittee is authorized to implement the CBRMP as set.!orth therein." Note this does
not state that the permittee is required to conduct all activities stated therein. Furthermore,
the Joint Coastal Permit does specifically address signage / envirollil1ental protection -
--~arke~~hat--the BureauoTBeache-s-aocrCoastarSys{em-srequires in -th~ Pa~-;-ea through
____-----.----~- ._ .." ....." " ' _""" _ .. ... ".... __" ....' _....__~__._._..__ 'm
--Spe,:ific Conditioos.-which discussesTo-slgnsrequlrea tQ: oe_~i~stafie(rln -spe<:jfic Tocations,
"'-- ____ __ "'__"~"_'""'__'______.__ __ ....,.______~..____._.._,___,,__..___._____..___._.___ '. ',_' ___u_____._____,__._...._ ...._.._._
ill order to protect the natural communities as well as the boating public. The Bureau 0(------
-~-- ,-, "._-"----- '-----'._,-----
- --------- ------- - --~- --- .---.---
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,Beach~saJ1d Coastal Systems requires _that the~e si~~b~j!:l~~lled as protective
'envrro~n.tar measures (although the wording on the signs will have to be amended to
~meet legal requiremen!s of F~~).-- ~ -~._---- ---- -~ -- --- ~--- -........-
-
_The required signage inten~d by the permit is specified within the E~!!TIit, and it is clear
--- - -- .'- ----.---- --..-.. --
. that the intent of the permit was environmental enhancementrather than navigationaC-
.' enmln~;;i!i~il!s.-Ffom'i11e::pep~rtm~n~' s standpoint, th~i;~allat~n ~ii~_~_ USCG ;~igation
. _I?~~~~s~re no~~s~~~~ r~g~i~:I?~!.1f<?ftl1T~R~!ll1it, ariailie.s'i~_~age ~~q~_~~~~i~S2~CI~T-'
Condition 5 of the permit would address the Department's environmental enhancement
..-------.--------------.. ......... ---.,..-.-...-- -,--_..~._---~.'"--~_....~- ---"--'"
concerns. Thus, it does not appear that the additional signage would be necessary.
. ----.-------..------ --..-.-
- .,.....---.-.--.-
Distribution Memo - Permit Application
DEP File No. 0128463-001-JC
June 9, 2008
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Pt'lknu Bay Services Divisiou Ach'isor:r Board :\leelillg :\HuUle\
:'olav 6. 2009
meet the mlenl of the Clam Bay Restoranon ~!<Ula1'f'lllellt Plan penmts Cla.nficatlOIlIS Ilt't'ded re,~ardllJl' t.he Corps pOSltlOlllhat llCl e s
Coast GlliIId laterallla\1~.J[Jon.,1 aid; ;houJd be m~talled 1lI the Gulf of ~.leXlco You W1U illS{'on':r that the COIl'S. I. III atleelllf'lll ""nil
those ,,'ho w)derslalld that the emHnc<, to the (,I;un Pass ',\'Slem :.bould bt- m~rlr..ed "lth l: S COJ.'.l Gu,ud marker; "cluaU\, wanuJl:
manner:. of the haz.llds and Imlllallon:. cf na\'lcanOll \\uhm the CI.UI, Pzc;" ~\':.tem
CHAIR\VO~t.:...." \'v'O!v1BLE :.LUCI.l, 1.1m ,~OLnE to a:.k U:at VOll ier :1Jrn 'ipeak to \li to Ulal "lld
MS <..":R/I. \. 'ESS Ab',Oiutei\' thank ';au
~lR CR.A. VE~S Madam Ch.111, calli maJ:..e J paml of older before we proceed" Item mUllbt-r lill'l<' 'L'pdates all Clam Bay Vall
could move that up on rhe J,:'end,) and put It 11:1H now
CHiuRWO~IA" WOMBLE TiI.at b eXClcth Wh.H I ;Ull dC'llle, Tom, th.1I.Ll: vou Hell,,;...1: \kElwJln alld welcome
MR :VieR WA1:\ Good aft!."moon :Vlv lJ..lme Ie; T\Uus \lcEhnm Fo: those of vou \\'ho mav bt- wonde!lllc' Ir IS a familv t!:lme
alld tbev dJ.1' It up everv coupl!." lnutdred years ana snd; ~..ollli'bod\' ulth It s(, 1l Jtbt 1J..1ppel'l<'d to be mv Itlm I am cum.'lluv 11'1<' SOIlUI
penultS btanch due! and I oversee bur ofnces 111 South F1ondJ., So J.lJ the pemuttlJlc III Sou:h f-lond.1 that the J\Ull\' Cm'Ps of EUl'iueers
does IS lU}(\er my' ptll\lew \Ve have re<:elVed a lor cf nlls and complamb And cotlcel1l$ Le,~;udlll" .1 pemut thaI w'e Issued to Ull; Board fOI
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1 1 /fP~
restoration of manclO\'es appronmatelv It'll veall at'o We have r,lh~ W'Ith rhe Count\" TIm lllOllllllC I Iller \\ lth 11m Hoppeusreadt \\lth
Pehcan Bav to bear exactlv what th<> com'ellls are We took a sue vl5Ir and looked at CLUll Bav :'vlv mten! here roday 15 10 answer anv
quesnollS related 10 the pemll!. hear what VOll h,1\'<' to sav here TIlell, I am meewlt' \<1th tile COlUm' to UllderstJlld ti'Jell UlteUt10llS \Vlth
thollI am here Ie aljSwer auv quesnoll\ you may 111\'e
CH.AIRWm.IA." \VOMBLE At tills pOUlt vou aa\'e not met "1tll tile CotllllV vet. COITeet"
:\IR MeEL \VAl;"; ;";0. we haw not
CH.:uR\VO~vlA.." WmlBLE What do you detemlllle tbt lY.'lUm to lead as tOI stellat'''' 101 i1Jl\1hlll(' that vouknow th,lt IS unoer
dlscusslOu at thJs pomt"
MR :>.1cELWAr\ It IS my ulldelStitlldu,t' Ule ]Y.'mut was ISSUed to tlus bo;uc You were actually tilt' pernllt holder It was ,1
restoranon plan that lJ.ld smile refelt'IKe 10 lla\1c.;\oOUa] ll1.uklnc crimI llooce to miHlners of some kmd Inm\' OpUllOll, U'Je pIau IS a hale
poorl;' worded It 1\ UlldeJJ ex,1CtlV Ihe llHem, whi\'. was llltended, ,,'hat w;\S not Ultended, ,md d1.lI b :he reason \dl\' I am !lete
Pnmanly, the Illtent of the penmt appears to be lestoraoon ct nL.lll~J()\"es 1: su,l11y wall pernut\ of tilal nat\1n' , Ou! Sl~l1S aud
ch.annel markers that we request are lelated to markllll; resources. JS opposed to de$lcl11Ol1~ a dr..Ull.lel Ho....""ver. we are ~Olll~ to IlStell [0
the COUllrv and hear !hell concerm are and all',' plans UHt 111.1V be on the honzon for Clam 3a\'
MR GR..4. VE\HORST Has the COUlU"\' ralked to vou! office or VOIU azea 111.mal'''r'\ otfic" \\1th azl\' qllemous rel"ardrll(' what
Pelican Bay Senlcl'5 Division Advison Board :\leeting \HulItes
:\1al' 6, 2009
type of pe:l1l11IOUc needed to be mclllded WIth ,1 ]Y.'!1m! .xl).\"e vou been no' III Ul;l! lIlU 211 a]]" KJ\e VOl! had drscusnon5 WIth tJle COUIllY"
)vIR :\lcEL\VAL"-; Yes. we ha"/" I .!sked Garv ~lC'\Jplll to conk JJul \Illll on tills ll:ti'eOn~ ilS well toda\' ill case tllel" ale auv
quesnom as to what the COllllt,. does 01 does not pl,Ul to de
~IR GRA \'E~tIOR) T \V,IS ,ill\' Illstmcuom .~m"ll to tile COlall\' dlar we had to have l.lttnllla,\'1',1uomJ markers, Coast GUJJ'd
markers '
MR. MeEL WAI;"; TIle leaer nldlcated that the plan does (.ill for markers of SOUk sort
},.!R GR..<\ VE;";HORST' \Ve (M',e u1.llker\ no\\
}'!R, MeEL W/\lX I Ullderst,llld tikIt
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~.[R. GR.A. VE.,rIORST BU! ha~ anvone told them thev had to pm III Co,,~t Guard tn.ukers'"
}vIR MeEL \'\',AJ:\ TIlI~re a:e ,. lot of dliferent ::;pe:. of Dl.uker s
}.{R GR.A. \'E:\HORST You havt' !ll't tl'ld me (oum'." tl1,,1(. haw ':ou"
MR :vkEL \.V.AJX \Ne h.1l,'e not told rllem >peoflcaliv.1 tv).'e of m.uker U1.1! 11.1d to bt' rn place
~rR MOFFA IT Donald Kmard's tent'l of \larch ' spe(lflf'; Co.1St Gu.ud markel;.
~rR ~kEL V; ill.'\ It S.1", Coast Gl.l.1nl appro\'ed n1.uker: Llkt' I ;,11':1. "t' haw lllfom1.1oonal Slens th,1t arf' Man,.tee markers,
S<"o1 ~ro1% markers, and those .Uf' ".!so COitst Guard J.pprc\,t'd maIkel " S.o there are ) \' antt\' of !tf'DILl the'\' use [0 notICto luanners and
klllds of markels
DR R..uA ~h\' I ask a quesnoll
}VrR MeEL W,AJ~ SLUe,
DR R.AJA In tbe March 2 leneI :-1, Kinard ~tatef" "Jt b.~t:.. COUle to the L".SI ::\.rll:;~- C{Xp:::. of Encu)fer,~ attention tbat the
rla\'lc:allonal mal ken h.,we not beeulllm.!Ied ' ~'!a'; I ask who brou~ht 11m to \'om ;HlenUou .1JId \l'1I\' ,
\.rR McEL \VA,!!'\ Eu{'tlv wh.J ),11 Km.ud W;,5 III I:Onven.1oon W1l11, I ;UtlllOt m,e I em tell you that we ha\'!' IHd nmlnple
call> bere loc allv ~{\' offiCe IS III FoIt \,lvels We h.1\'e been apploach€"Q b\ sew:.,l enuoes, allc11 tmde:staud tb,lt Ulere are ;evt'ral
pohncallssues mdependeur of OLU pemut lb..t ale \\'e .Re mOle or le;s m tl'l<' nudd].. of :leIe
~rR )'lOFFAIT TIlar wa::. tlut l,,"onte~t I ~V;L refelTuJ(: cc e~UUH
}'rR ~kELWA1\' If u\" ,ue dOlll: om Job properly I .1m ("OlliE' to walk out of tleI'e ,mc probablv everybody r, ~1Il'" to be mad
at llle
CH.AlRWmlA'\ \VOMBLE Have ",ou '.cheduled .u; .,ppomnllf'lll to me'e! \ntb tlle Coum.,.'
)'o"rR ~1cELWf\L'\ Ye, We have bcrD mfom:.ed trJ.lt II b \'OlU COlm!' COmltll%IOllf'l; meetltl: on \1av.26 Om llllenUOll IS to
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Pelican Ba~' Service, Division Advisor~' Board :\leetiug Minutes
:\lay 6. 2009
meet the lUcent of (he Clam Bay RestoranOll ~fanacement Plan penlllts CLmflCatlOnls ll.et'ded lefardInc the Calps pOSIUOll that no CS
Coast Guard lateral na\'lt'atiotlal aids should be installed m the Gulf of \feXlc0. You will dlscoveI that the Corps IS 1lI acxeemel1t With
those who understand that the entrance to the Clam Pass svstem should be lnarked \nth L S Coast Guard marken actually wamlll/:
manners of the haz.J1ds and ImUC,ll1ons of na\'l~aoon \\1tmn the Clam Pass; '(stem
CHAIRWO\IA' \VOMBLE \lalCla. I ;lIll ~llln: to ask that vou It't lUlU '+,<",11: tel us :0 that end
MS CR.:" VE:\'S Absolutel\'. thank von
MR CRA VE:\'S \ladam Ch,lU. callI m.ake a poult of Oldt'[ bdore we proceed" Item munber nme 'Updates Oil Clam Bay' you
could mow that up on the acend,l ami put It nebt now
CHAlRWO\fA'\ \VOl\1BLE That IS exact].,' what I ;un dome Tom. th,mk vou Hello \h \lcElw'am and wekome
}..fR }..kEL \V.A.!:\' Good aftemoon \f',' nallle IS TUIllS \fcElwam FO! those of Vall who m.av be wondenllc' illS a family UdUlt'
and they dJ.1: It up ever'.' couple hlU1dred wars and stiCK s{)tllebodv \nth H, so It JllSt happened to be l1)\' ru.l1l 1 am currently the south
pel11uts branch dud and 1 oversee fOllr offices ill S.outh Flonda. So :dl tb", pemutnu:, I1l Som.h Fl0I1(1a that the )U11lV Corps of Ellt'llleers
does IS lmder my pUlTlew We h.we received a lot of ",ills and compLllllt; ;md (oucems le:,oudul:, a pemllt that we Issued to tillS Board for
restoration of maucwves approxulklteh- ten veJl', a~o \V", bw tlh:t'G \\lth th", C,;UlP. Tlu::. 1ll011ll1l;, 11lle: \\lth J Ul! Hoppemteadt \I.1th
Pelican Bay to hear exactly vdlar the caneems aJ<' W<, took a site \'Im and look<,d at Clam B,1\' :-.h IIltelll llere lo<jay IS to ,Ulswer any
quesoons Jelate<:lto the pemm, Ileal: 1.\'Il<lt vou h.n't to ,av here The!!. 1 am meelm? '-nth tll<? COUllt\' to lUldf'rStanQ their llltellOon5 With
tllat I am here to answer am' qu<esoons VOll llla'. 11,1 H'
CH.:.JR\VO~L'I...'\ WOMBLE At tlus pomt VO\.l :).1\ e not lllet '.Lltll tile CalUll\' vet cozrec('
~{R MeEl. \\'.'\1.'\ :\'0, we llaw not
CH.:.JRWOMA'\ WOl\IBLE \Vll"t do VOll detemulle the l:>elllllt to re,ld as for SI~lla~e for allytllln~ tbat vou know Uklt IS under
diScussIon at this pomf'
\{R ~k EL W.;u:.; It IS mv 'Jllder,>talldlllr tl1<" p."lnut ,,'as limed to thiS board You were aenlJ.I]\, the p."fllUt holder It was a
restoratlon pIau that had SOllle reference to U"\l,!'ilooual markul,!'. orjm; uooee to mannels of sonle lOud III mv opnl1on. the plauts a lIttle
poorly worded It IS ullde.11 exactlv the mtellt. what was mtended, \t'ha: ',\';;S not llltend.ed, and th.it IS tllt' reason why I .1111 here
Pnman.ly, the mtent of the pemut appears to o.e restoraOOll (Jf lllalleJOVe5 l'slialiv WillI pemuts of that llature, our SI~S and
ch.11mel Ill..1l:kers that we request .11'e related to I1ku-kml' re'iOllfeeS, as opposed to desl!'1litOllc a charmel However. w<e are cOlle to lIsten to
tile County and hear tlleU eoncerm are and am' plan::. that l1WV be on the honZOll for Clam 3av
MR GR.A" VE'iHORST Has the Cmum' talked to vour offICe or VOUI area nUlla,~ers office \\lth .1llV questIon,> re~ardJ.llt' wbat
^ "".n"'~>_.".~".'.__.._ ".- ,~. -,.,_..,"_.~"--...-..-,.... ...." '_m~o" ._-'~.-."'-
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From: "Alford, Tara" <lara,alford@MyFWC.com>
-I5lrte, July T.(2OO81T1~O'5AM-rnT
To: Marcia Cravens <mrlc@mac,com>, Ovdenk Cynthia <cynthia,d,ovdenk@usace.army,mil>, Eric SAJ Summa P <Eric.P,Summa@usace,army.mil>
Cc: KeyesPamela <PamelaKeyes@colliergov,net>, Joseph.B.Embres@uscg.mll, "Keyser, Carol" <caroLkeyser@MyFWC.com>
Subject: RE: clarification of signage issues in DEP permit
--.---. -_._-- .____________w - ._._._._--_.,~~ .--_.~---_.._.._.-
C(nci IVImfllll'.l
If you woul(! like to '.lIve Ill(' dDOtlt
to our stakellolclers (lVIs Cr':lv(li-l de,; \/\1(-11
Cllanne
nIdi kcr~
Let lnE' K!)Oi/v 11 :)C'cu
111')llks. lal'a
BOJHU!G "
From: gllldHlldn's....("l\la~'.nllll 111l..ilh).~II'd;nldfl}s..>("'III<ll' nUll I 011 HehulrUf \I.ll\. Iii ("IUll'IlS
Senl:SuuJil).Jul} 1.\.20(IKh II \I\I
To: ()nlcuk ('}ulhi.l: 1;.r1l S.\J SUlllllla I'
Ce: .\larl.:liI( 'WIl..'llS
Subjet:l: I'\nl ..:Ianlil.:illilllllll "lglla,!!" ISSlIl,.'S III J)I':I' Pl:rLUll
Cylllhla,
After having an infonnallve conversalion wIth Tara AH~Jrd at Flonda FWC she made It clear Lo me that channel markers are NOT placed to prevent environmental damage
and there IS no provIsion to MAKE boaters stay III the marked channel Neither IS there any consequence to boaters for being out orlhe channel 'n11S IS of course
consistent with what LaiOie Edwards at DEP III Tallahassee had slated 111 her IIlterpretatlon urlhe poorly worded condition for channel markers ITl the Clam Bay
Restoration & Management Planl CBRM P) Not only IS the language of tillS condition to mark the channel for IlaVlgallon ambIguous, illS also
ERRONEOUS Respectfully, illS only your mterpretatlon of Ihe language of the condition III the CBRMP which stated that the channel would be marked accordmg to
requirements Imposed by the USCG (USCG has nOllmposed It) that brought us to a Situation today With Mr McAlpll1\ ndlculolls plan Clllef Embres of Miami USCG
only approved McAlpm's plan after you slated that the Corps was reqUlrmg navigational channel markers
The only markers that have any deterrnlllallon of prolectmg seugrass beds or uthtT mHurul resources IS slgnage that IIlfonTIs the boater that seagrass beds or natural resources
are present Additionally, the only slgnage that reasonably protects the hoater from nUllllllg 11110 CI shoal IS slgnage marking the shoal 1l11S IS nOI my opinIon or
detelmmatlOn, I am repeating and emphatlcally III agrt:t:lI1ern wuh Tam Allord
Once agalll we are back to your lIlterpretullon 01 the language III the mm1agemem plan and more lI11Ponantly,lIw best way 10 manage Ihe Clam Pass Natural Resollfce
Prolectlon Area
Not requITIng aids to navigatIon does nOllmpede or prevelll the resldcllIs or others frum IranslIUlg the Clam Bays or Clam Pass Rl.':quJrclllenl of placlIlg appropriate
markers mlonmng boalers of shoals and natural resources would appeal' to be much more consIstent with the mtent of('BRMP
AdditIonally, the Collier County Manatee Protectlonl'lan, beSIdes rClIllon:lIlg the knowledge that thiS IS a shallow udal estuary--ollly sUited lor canoes or small
tlatbotlomed boats, It IIldH:alt:s the ellllre system IS and should be Idle speed onlyuDep rcquln:s slgnuge In that c1l'eC'1 1.11 each pOint of entry to all bays and the Pass
I am mcludmg a prevIous emall from you 10 me III which yiJU had cited envIronmental protcellon as the reason for navigatIon markers SlIlce thiS IS not consistent with DEP
and FWC I am 51111 requestlllg a meellllg WIth you
The agenda would be a closer look at the language of the CBRM I' and how to best protect the natural resources present and how best 10 protect the boaters, kayakcrs, and
others who SWim, snorkel and lish IIllhese waterways At preselll SlIll.:'C I do not have any dates for thIS me.:tlllg from YOll, I am unable to know of any other attendees, as
the few I may want to have present are not cOntlllUOllSly 1Il10WIl IlllWY end lip Just bell1g you and I to meet on thiS Thank YOlll1l advance for a prompt reply In your
response, please proVIde several available dates
Begm forvvarded message
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1 l~C~'
From: "Ovdenk, Cynthia 0 SAJ" <C:Y!llIII") U\ (1<311, 'ljd>
Date: June 10, 2008 1 :42:28 PM EDT
To: Marcia Cravens <Ulll(;'c,' !lIdl; "Cia I>
Cc: "Summa, Ene P SAJ" <brlcf' lilll>
Subject: RE: clarification of signage issues in DEP permit
Hello Marsha,
I have reviewed our penmt (which IOcludes the managemem plan as a pan of
the perrmt)for Clam Bay and II dearly Slales that the IIIUIIl dlallilel shall be
marked as required by the US Coast Guard ThIS means the slgnage should meet
the USCG standard reqUIrements, not that USCG IS reqUJrlng the l:hannd to be
marked -.Ib~ p~l1pose a'-the channel markers IS to prevent environmental
~....!.lli1llitm1! sea\.!rass beds~ the lxJalS wlthm the channel
Thank you,
CynthIa Ovdenk
ProJect Manager. Enforcement Section
Regulatory DIVISion
Jacksonville Dlstnct
Olr'ce 2:19-]]4-1975
Cell 904-614-6381
Fax 239-334-0797
Please assist us in bener servmg youl Please complete the customer survey
by chcklllg on the followmg link
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