Minutes 02/25/1998 EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES ADVISORY COUNCIL
(EMSAC)
INFORMAL MINUTES
February 25, 1998
2:00 P.M.
Health Building
3"d Floor
3301 East Tamiami Trail
Council Members
Present: Bob Laird Excused: Paul Gunther-Mohr
Roger Evans George Leamon
Rhona Saunders
Gail Dolan Unexcused: Chief Jim Tobin
Commander Reed
Mike Davis
Fay Biles
Others: Leo Ochs
Chief Flagg
Commander Page
Barbara Brown
The regular monthly meeting of the Collier County EMSAC committee was called to
order at 2:05 P.M. on Wednesday February 25, 1998 by Bob Laird, Chairman.
Fay Biles made a motion to accept the minutes of the January 28, 1998 meeting. Motion
2nd by Sheldon Reed. Motion passed.
OLD BUSINESS:
Commander Page reported Chief Flagg was waiting on John Yonkosky to fax a copy of a
document that he had received from Medicare. John Yonkosky's estimation of what
Medicare would pay this year came up short. Commander Page believed it was actually
less than was paid last year. Commander Page stated right now they are still negotiating
with Medicare. DOR is trying to find out why there has been a reduction and they will
pursue.
Roger Evans inquired on the additional charge. His understanding was to create the
higher charge so that as a pattern of higher charge over a period of time, doesn't mean
your paid that, but charged that, and then that becomes your rate base. When your rate
change period comes about, Medicaid looks back at the rate charge history, and that is
what assist in increasing the rate.
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Commander Page stated based on the $302 rate John Yonkosky was expecting to go from
$250 to $280. That didn't happen although it is still being negotiated with Medicare..
Rhona Saunders inquired if this would impact from now forward on what is collected from
Medicare or what they have paid us already. Commander Page replied yes, but again it is
still being negotiated.
Commander Reed inquired as to the impact? Commander Page stated currently we are
charging $302. Commander Page thought we were getting a little less than we were this
last year, $252. So, nothing has really changed.
Rhona Saunders stated the budget was based on the estimated increased.
Leo Ochs stated the budget for next year has not been formulated as yet. It is not
necessary based on what Medicare does. Mike Symkowski, Budget Director, will be
going before the Board in early March with his annual Executive Summary that asks the
Board to set some basic budget policy guidelines. The section on EMS, will give some
historical data of the overall budget and the breakdown and the major funding sources for
the operation being obviously ad valorem and user fees. They will decide what kind of
position do they want to take. Leo Ochs thought historically it had been half and half.
Chief Flagg stated it ranges between 60% and 40%. Leo Ochs stated the Board would
need to decide as a policy level decision first and foremost, how much ad valorem support
they want to provide to the operations. That will dictate the rates that need to be charged
in order to make up the difference.
Chief Flagg wanted to clarify; Medicare is changing. This has been said all along. The
theory was, that if you have an eighteen month window and you stay above the Medicare
allowable rate for eighteen months, then Medicare would give an increase to your
Medicare rate. Mr. Yonkosky did that eighteen months ago. The fee was increased
above what Medicare allowed to $302. Medicare's allowable rate for the vast majority of
transports, not all of them, was and still is $250. What that means, Medicare pays $200
and the patient is responsible for the 20% or $50. Eighteen months ago based upon the
information provided by Medicare, they said, if you increase the rate above what we allow
for an eighteen month period, then we will increase what we allow. That did not happen.
Now, my understanding is, Mr. Yonkosky is pursuing a review with Medicare as to way
they did not increase the rate as a result of increasing the rate above what Medicare
allowed eighteen months ago. Now this ultimately will become the Boards decision. Many
systems have realized you cannot base your level of service or quality of service based
upon what Medicare and medical insurance's are is going to reimburse. Some of the
systems have set a rate at $200, some are not charging at all. More and more systems are
saying they can't play the Medicare game anymore, they are setting a reasonable fee; the
public pays taxes for emergency services and the balance will be ad valorem. That
decision for Collier County lies with the Board of County Commissioners. Once they set
the fee, the balance will be ad valorem. The EMS division right now is what is called an
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enterprise fund. This means a portion of it is tax supported, a portion of it is user fees,
and they have to balance each other out to be a budget. Other systems have gone to a
system where the EMS system is a totally ad valorem fund, and a completely separate fund
collects the revenues from fees. Lee County is one of those systems.
Leo Ochs stated he felt the Board would be asked, as a policy level, if EMS has been on
the average a 50/50 split, do you want to maintain that percentage split for the coming
Fiscal Year? If the Board chooses to, then Chief Flagg develops the operating budget
and 50% of that will be ad valorem supported. Then we figure what the rate structure
needs to be based on the projected call volume to raise enough revenue to fund the
remaining half of the operating budget.
Chief Flagg stated the danger of approaching the budget from that prospective is it sends
your fees potentially through the roof or you lose your level of service
Commander Reed stated if EMS needs to go to a full ad valorem mode and what ever gets
generated back into revenue is the way to go, it is better to do that sooner than later.
Diane Flagg would like to have the Commissioners understand, that EMS will state what
their professional recommendations are in terms of service levels and what the projected
cost for those service levels will be. Based upon the third party payers, Medicare and
Medicaid, DOR will show what they can expect in terms of a reimbursement. If they want
to try to increase fee reimbursement through higher bills we can tell from vast experience
that is not a good way to go. There may be an opportunity to increase the bills slightly
through a capped mileage, that was one of the previous discussion. Charging mileage and
capping it at seven miles, and that may help some. But going to the $350 or $380 bills,
then a new issue is created with the community.
Chief Flagg also stated she has given numerous presentations, advising people their EMS
millage is 0.19856 rounded off to 0.2 mills, which equates to $20/year on a taxable value
of $100,000. If your homes taxable value is $200,000 that equates to $40 a year No
complaints are heard from the community on the tax amount's or the service levels.
What she heard hundreds of complaints about, before the Board made the revisions to the
fee structure, was the amount of the bill.
Commander Reed stated Chief Flagg had recommended two units last year, and only
received one, so that leaves the department down one unit.
Leo Ochs stated on the copy of the Budget Policy there is a reference to two units being
proposed.
Chief Flagg stated what dictates pre-hospital emergency services is largely response time.
As a result of that, in dictating the units we need, are the response times. We have to put
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units in place due to response times. When the medics are not on a call, they are doing
other things such as community EMS programs, hypertensive screening, & glucose
screening. EMS units are running over 100 calls a day right now. The helicopter is
running over 100 missions a month which is one of the busiest ships in the State of
Florida. Placement of EMS units, and putting units in service is dictated by response
times.
Chief Flagg stated the projected runs for FY 98 - 15,200 billed transports.
Fay Biles asked how many runs were billed last year total?
Mike Davis mention he noticed the emergency lane had been put into place at the Gordon
River Bridge. Is it a success?
Chief Flagg answered yes, it will be a greater success when they implement the utilization
of changing the signal. The purpose of the emergency lane was to get the unit to the
intersection. Step two of the process is to purchase the signal"devices. There is someone
that will be manning the radio at the City Corn Center so the medic unit, once the devices
is on the signal, the medic unit will call the Corn Center and they will change the light to
green to allow the unit to proceed across the bridge. There is no room for an emergency
lane on the bridge, so the purpose of the emergency lane is just to get them to the
intersection, step two is to control the lights to get them across the bridge.
Mike Davis inquired about a satellite facility. Chief Flagg did not recommend that. Gail
Dolan stated it would not help.
NEW BUSINESS:
Commander Page reported on an incident last week. The North Naples Fire Department
was allowing citizens to ride their units. EMS had an issue where a young man was video
taping accident scenes and going into the patients' homes. That was a patient
confidentially issue and the Fire Chief was called. Chief Flagg stated that is actually not
legal. She had the duty Commander call, as soon as it happened, contact the fire
department and tell them medical scenes are EMS responsibility.
Commander Page reported on a call at the Beachwalk tennis courts. A man was feeling
weak, the unit was dispatched and they responded from North Collier and they were there
within three minutes, and transported the patient to the hospital. When the EMS
Lieutenant was getting his times, we had a resident call complaining about the length of
time it took for the fire department and EMS to get there. When Jeff Page researched the
times there was a ten minute delay from the time the Sheriffs Office received the call and
ten minutes before it was dispatched it to EMS. It was researched and apparently the
dispatch center dropped the call. Rhona Saunders inquired how EMS picked the patient
up if the call was dropped. Jeff Page said the party called a second time.
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Sheldon Reed stated the Sheriff desperately needs a new cad system with some back ups.
The City's system, which they will be replacing in the next couple of months, their old
system has built in timers, if you have a call that's waiting for more than a couple of
minutes, the machine starts beeping.
Bob Laird reported on the Letter to the Editor he had sent in answer to Karen Mathewson
letter. After reading the letter he felt it was necessary to respond. He reported he had
discussed his letter with Leo Ochs, and Chairman Berry. Chairman Berry wanted him to
poll the council members to make sure they were in agreement to his response.
Chief Flagg, reported the City Manager on Marco had sent a letter asking for a proposal
to provide both EMS and fire service to the City of Marco. She has referred the letter to
the County Administrator. Chief Flagg, also reported on March 10, she will be doing a
presentation to the Public Safety Committee on EMS.
The AED Ordinance will be out of the County Attorneys Office by the end of February.
This will successfully create the program where anyone in the community who wants an
Automatic External Defibrillator will be able to call the organization, set up a class, and
then be able to purchase an AED. In addition EMS also has a commitment from
manufacturers for ninety (90) AED's, which generally run between $2500 and $5000 a
piece. The study has been completed on where the AED's should be placed, based upon
statistics. EMS will be giving AED's to target areas to implement and also provide the
training for them. After the Ordinance is approved, it will be advertised, then it has to go
to the Board for approval. This program will serve as a model for the rest of the nation.
An AED is a medical device that requires a physicians prescription. Physicians are
unwilling to write a script because of the liability. It will be a complete program so John
Q. Public who wants an AED can get the training, and purchase an AED. They will also
receive annual follow up. The manufacturers were so interested in this program that they
are willing to commit that number of AED's, they will be using Collier County as an
example to sell the AED's throughout the nation. t,+�
Roger Evans inquired as to where the liability lies with the program? ?7')"''t 5 '
Chief Flagg stated the AED's 100% of the time, which is really unusual in medicine, will
not, has not, inappropriately shock someone. EMS has been working with the
manufacturer's the last few years to get them to design an AED for use by John Q. Public.
The AED's is a complete self contained & self charging unit. All it has is a red light and a
green light. If there is something wrong with it the red light shows. If they see a red light
they call EMS. It has a five year battery. It was designed specifically for the lay public.
We are real confident with the product that is there, and the law changed to include the
AED's as a part of the Good Samaritan Law. The last link in this program, is putting the
Ordinance together to tie the training to the AED purchase, so anyone can go out and buy
it.
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Bob Laird reported on the Commission Meeting, February 17, 1998. The Paramedic's
were honored with the Phoenix Awards. He complimented Chief Flagg, for the good
work she does, as well as the medics.
Fay Biles did not understand Chairman Berry's comment that they have to separate fire
and EMS. Chief Flagg stated it doesn't necessarily matter how the system's are
governed. Chief Flagg does not remember hearing the City Council, or the Board of
County Commissioners, or Marco City Council ever saying to the fire departments, you
will not respond to medical calls, or saying to EMS, you will not respond to fire calls.
Because the reality is that both systems respond to the same calls to provide the service.
The issue of how they are governed is a discussion for the elected officials. But the reality
is in daily operations you only benefit by partnering with things like the single vehicle
response program, common fire training programs, common medical training program
because you are all working the same emergency scenes.
In the field if it is a medical scene, the fire department gets there on the EMS medic unit
via the single vehicle response program, or they get there on a fire engine and the outcome
for the community is better if that firefighter has some basic medical understanding. The
same is true of EMS Paramedics at a house fire. It is better for the community if each
department works together. What is best is for everyone to have some basic knowledge of
each other's profession, and to be able to interface, and support each other. The reality is
the Paramedics are at a fire scene, and are better serving the public providing fire ground
support than just sitting in their truck.
Chief Flagg reported the special risk legislation is progressing. The Senator that opposed
it and was a result of the reason why the legislation failed last time has actually signed on
as a co-sponsor of the bill this year. Chief Flagg also reported on the House Bill in
reference to the Certificate of Need process. Currently the State of Florida, has said to the
Board's of County Commissioners, that it is their responsibility to assure that you have a
unified approach to emergency medical services in your community. Then they make the
decision as to how the unified approach occurs. The purpose of the (CON) legislation was
to eliminate duplication of services and an uncoordinated response to medical
emergencies. Years ago, before CON legislation, you had multiple agencies responding to
a single incident, one grabbing an arm, one grabbing a leg, and who ever pulled the hardest
got the patient. That was the purpose of the legislation.
Mike Davis made a motion to adjourn, second by Rhona Saunders. Motion passed
unanimously.
ectfully submitted,
c4—)t-bcx->L- (;-alc"7.4...>n
Barbara, Brown
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EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES ADVISORY COUNCIL
(EMSAC)
AGENDA
February 25, 1998
2:00 P.M.
HEALTH BUILDING
3`D FLOOR
3301 EAST TAMIAMI TRAIL
CALL TO ORDER
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
OLD BUSINESS
NEW BUSINESS
PLEASE NOTE: All future meeting dates will be held
last Wednesday of each month at
2:00 P.M. unless you are notified of a
necessary date or time change.