CLB Minutes 07/19/2000 RJuly 19, 2000
TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE
CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
Naples, Florida, July 19, 2000
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing
Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted
business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR
SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East
Naples, Florida, with the following members present:
CHAIRPERSON:
Gary Hayes
Walter Crawford, IV
Daniel Gonzalez
Richard Joslin
Bob Laird
Arthur Schoenfuss
Carol Pahl
Sara Beth White
NOT PRESENT: Les Dickson
ALSO PRESENT:
Patrick Neale, Attorney for the board
Robert Zachary, Assistant County
Attorney
Thomas Bartoe, License Compliance
Officer
Bob Nonnenmacher, License Compliance
Officer
Paul Balzano, License Compliance Officer
Page I
AGENDA
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
DATE July 19, 2000
TIME: 9:00 A.M.
ADMINISTRATION BUILDING
COURTHOUSE COMPLEX
ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A
RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO
ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD
INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED.
I. ROLL CALL
II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS:
III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
DATE: June 21, 2000
V, NEW BUSINESS:
1. Timothy Matthew - request to qualify 2"d entity with (2} different licenses (drywall
& plastering}.
2. Jeff Popick - request to qualify 2nd entity.
3. Daniel Denis - request to qualify 2nd entity.
4. William A. Alberson, Sr. - request for approval for Roof/Coat/Paint/Clean license
with a grade of 71.7% from a painting exam, business & law was included in that
exam,
VI.
VII.
VIII.
IX.
X.
5. workshop/Ordinance amendments.
OLD BUSINESS:
PUBLIC HEARINGS:
REPORTS:
DISCUSSION:
NEXT MEETING DATE:
August 16, 2000
July 19, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'd like to call this meeting of the Collier
County Contractors' Licensing Board to order, July 19th, 9:00
alml
Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this board
will need a record of the proceedings pertaining thereto and,
therefore, may need to ensure that a verbatim record of the
proceedings is made, which record includes that testimony and
evidence upon which appeal is to be based.
I need roll call, starting to my right.
MR. GONZALEZ: Dan Gonzalez.
MR. LAIRD: Bob Laird.
MR. CRAWFORD: Walter Crawford.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Gary Hayes.
MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin.
MS. PAHL: Carol Pahl.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: Arthur Schoenfuss.
MS. WHITE: Sara Beth White.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Are there any additions or deletions to
the agenda, Mr. Bartoe?
MR. BARTOE: Staff has none.
MR. NEALE: The only issue I think that the board should
address, and we just had a discussion on it, and Mr. Zachary and
I met about it, is we -- last time we were talking about
qualification of second entities and whether this board has
jurisdiction.
And by having a two-minute conversation with Judy this
morning, I think we've shed an incredible amount of light on the
issue.
And prior to getting to No. 5, new business, I would suggest
that the board take a few minutes to discuss second entity
qualifications so we can get this issue that we've been wrestling
with in the dark clarified. And I think with a few minutes
commentary by Judy and Mr. Zachary, we can have it resolved
and we can go forward.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. So if I read you correctly, you
want to move agenda Item No. 6, old business, up in front of No.
5?
MR. NEALE: Right. Just so we can -- the board can feel
comfortable and can take action on the issue of second entity
qualifications by this board.
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July 19, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I need a motion from the board.
MR. LAIRD: I so move, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion. And a second?
MR. JOSLIN: Second.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, all in favor?
Disapprove?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, we'll move that around.
Any other additions or deletions?
I need a motion to approve the agenda now.
MR. JOSLIN: So moved.
MS. PAHL: I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. All in
favor?
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Excellent. We'll move right along here.
Okay, I've got the minutes of June 21st. I assume we've all
read them, we understand them. I need a motion for approval.
MR. LAIRD: So moved, Mr. Chairman.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: Second.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. All in
favor?
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well, we'll move on to old
business. Item 6, state's position on qualifying a second entity.
I'm understanding, after discussing with Judy as well, Mr.
Neale, that it takes two board approvals anyway, that even
though we grant a second entity approval at this board level, that
does not stop there. They don't have a license to practice
business, a second entity, until they get approval from the state
board anyhow. And that's on only local license holders.
In a case of a certified license holder, we probably -- they
don't need to see us, period. Isn't that correct? MS. PUIG: Correct.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. So what we're doing is basically
endorsing or denying an endorsement to a second entity who
comes before this board. We are not allowed to grant them that
second entity. They will go to the state board and the state will
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July 19, 2000
grant that, after reviewing our endorsement or denial.
MR. NEALE-- The question arose because if you remember a
few months ago, Mr. Palmer did a -- addressed this question and
did a memorandum and spoke to the state about whether this
board had the authority to grant second entity status to a state
registered or registrable contractor. And the holding by Mr.
Palmer at that time was that no, we did not.
At the time, we had not done the investigation to find out
how the staff actually does their work, much to our
embarrassment, I must say. If Mr. Palmer or myself had done the
research at the time, we would have found out that the question
never needed to be asked, because our staff was way ahead of
us on that one, and they were doing things according to statute
and according to the way the state board would require anyhow.
In fact, actually, the way the staff is doing it was a way that
provides all the protections that we had discussed last time.
Because if you remember, the issue came up of how would we
know if we just sent them to the state that they had been
qualified as a second entity. Well, the policy and procedure
that's been in place has been one that allows that guarantee.
And Judy, if you want to talk to it or I can speak to it, either
way. What staff has been doing, as you say, Mr. Hayes, is this
board just provides an endorsement that this person meets our
standards, then they get sent to the state anyhow for their
approval prior to them being able to qualify this second entity.
So we're taking probably an even more conservative
approach than a lot of other jurisdictions. The only issue -- the
only time this board would be the only board to qualify a second
entity would be in a case of a contractor that is not state
registrable; is that right?
MS. PUIG: No, registered, not certified.
MR. NEALE: Right. But, I mean, if we -- this board would be
the only one to act if it's a contractor that is not state registered,
right, that would be one of our contractors, like a painting
contractor?
MS. PUIG: We also --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Judy, you need to respond on record. I
apologize, but you need to come up to the podium.
MR. NEALE.' And just the question is, because there's
certain contractors that can't register with the state at all.
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July 19, 2000
MS. PUIG: Not that I'm aware of. We do all major trades and
specialty trades.
MR. NEALE: Okay. Because some of our trades, according
to state statute, at least, can't register with the state.
MS. PUIG: Yeah, all the specialty trades.
MR. NEALE: Right, the spec --
MS. PUIG: Painting.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, painting--
MS. PUIG: -- floor covering, tile.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, tile and such. So if we qualify -- this
board qualifies a second entity for one of those that doesn't
register with the state, then they don't have to appear in front of
the state board. We're the last stop, right?
MS. PUIG: Right. They will be issued a comp. card right
away. And they'll be able to start, when it's approved by our
board.
MR. NEALE: Right, so--
MS. PUIG: The registered contractors of the major trades --
MR. NEALE: They have to go to the state.
MS. PUIG: -- they have to go to the state.
MR. NEALE: Okay. So I think Mr. Zachary and I talked
briefly about it this morning, we had spent some time talking
about it in a meeting a couple of weeks ago, and I think I feel
satisfied and comfortable that the process being followed by
staff and by this board complies fully with both the letter and the
spirit of the state law and, frankly, is a very conservative and
very good approach to the way the process is going on.
And while Mr. Palmer's memo is correct as far as it went, we
didn't do the necessary research to find out exactly what we're
doing, so I feel comfortable, and want Mr. Zachary to state it,
too, but I feel comfortable that the process being followed fully
complies with the state statute and rules.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Zachary, you're going to have to
come up to the podium.
MR. ZACHARY: Robert Zachary, from County Attorney's
Office.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: You share that opinion?
MR. ZACHARY: Yes, I do. I concur with that piece of
information. It sort of all falls into place and makes sense now.
The state's certified contractors you'll probably never see.
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July t9, 2000
The state registered contractors, your role and the board's role is
to qualify them to go to the state to qualify second entity. And
then we have our specialty contractors, where they never go to
the state and it's the board's role to qualify second entity for
those specialty contractors that we have here in Collier County.
And I think that in a nutshell is the way it works.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Any questions from the board
members?
MR. NEALE: The only suggestion that I made and maybe Mr.
Zachary and I could work on this, is I would suggest that we
have this in a written policy somewhere so that if something
unfortunately happens and Judy is no longer sitting in that chair,
that it continues on in the future. Because, you know, I'd like to
say that -- and the staff does an incredibly -- from my point of
view, an outstanding job over there in handling an awful lot of
guff in a pretty high pressure environment. And to comply as
well as they do with some pretty complex and arcane regulations
and laws is pretty impressive. So I'd just like on the record to say
I really appreciate the job that they do.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: No doubt about it.
Mr. Laird?
MR. LAIRD: Yeah, Mr. Chairman. I just finished a four-year
term on the state board. My last year I was co-chair on the
second entity group. And you're very correct.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's the way you interpreted it --
MR. LAIRD: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- on the state level as well?
MR. LAIRD: That's correct.
MR. JOSLIN: I just have one quick question. Maybe this will
clarify in my mind. Obviously I said some things last month in
the meeting that maybe were incorrect. I need to stand
corrected.
I'd like to know now, as a registered contractor doing
business in Collier County and already doing business, if I were
to go to another county and that county would reciprocate with
my license, which is a registered license, swimming pool and spa
commercial contractor, would I have to go before that board also
in that county in order to become licensed in that county, and
then also the second entity, if I wanted to start a second entity?
MR. BARTOE: I believe, Mr. Joslin, it depends on the
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July 19, 2000
regulations in each county.
MR. JOSLIN: Right. But if they allow that -- what I'm saying,
if they allow that license, I can go to Cape Coral and work on
their licensing, I believe. But I have to go and register with that
particular county office.
MR. BARTOE: Correct me if I'm wrong, you're registered
with the state?
MR. JOSLIN: Right.
MR. BARTOE: No, you're already registered with the state.
You would produce your state registration and your Collier
County competency card and anything else that Cape Coral
would request to obtain their license.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And if you wanted to qualify a second
entity in that county, you would go before that board, if that is
their so desire as the local jurisdiction. MR. JOSLIN: Oh, okay.
MR. NEALE: And interesting that Mr. Joslin brings it up,
because that's one of the issues that we're going to be
discussing under Item V(5) under workshop -- under ordinance
amendments is the whole issue of reciprocity, because I think
it's something we've wrestled with for a while.
MR. ZACHARY: Just to add, I think each county has its own
rules as far as reciprocity. So that would be a question for Lee
County, Cape Coral on what they would require of you to work
there.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay.
MR. ZACHARY: See what I mean? You're state registered,
but they have their own set rules. And like Mr. Neale said, we
need to talk about what we're going to do about reciprocity.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay, I understand.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other questions on it? Very well,
that clarifies it for mostly all of us then.
Okay, let's move on to new business. Timothy Matthew,
request to qualify second entity with two different licenses.
Mr. Matthew, are you here? Would you come up please, sir.
I'm going to ask you to be sworn in first, Mr. Matthew. She'll talk
to you.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name, sir?.
MR. MATTHEW: Timothy Matthew.
Page 7
July 19, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And your reason for being here this
morning?
MR. MATTHEW: I'm here in order that the board may
approve me to qualify a second entity.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're currently qualifying Matthew's
Stucco and Plastering?
MR. MATTHEW: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And you're looking to qualify Timmy's
Wire Lath?
MR. MATTHEW: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: What's the difference?
MR. MATTHEW: Timmy's Wire Lath is going to be
specializing mainly in wire lathing. And I'm not going to -- I'm not
going to take off the stucco aspect of it, but still, we want to
specialize mainly in wire lathing.
MR. JOSLIN: Is there a high demand for wire lathing? Why
you want to break the two down?
MR. MATTHEW: Well, there is a very high demand,
especially in Collier County, for wire lathing. And the problem
with -- that is posed out there is that when the wire lathers go
out there to find the job, they would ask for license and
insurance, and most of those wire lathing guys do not have
license and insurance. So with me having a separate entity to
cover them up, I think that would do very good, especially in
Collier County.
MR. CRAWFORD: Typically you'd be working for a
subcontractor? You'd be a sub subcontractor -- MR. MATTHEW: Yes, sir.
MR. CRAWFORD: -- for a bigger plastering contractor?.
MR. MATTHEW: Yes, sir.
MS. WHITE: Is there an insurance form in this packet?
MR. BARTOE: I believe the insurance is in his folder.
MS. PAHL: Judy has it.
MR. NEALE: The insurance affidavit's in there.
MR. BARTOE: Yes, he has both general liability and workers'
compensation insurance.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other questions from the board?
MR. GONZALEZ: What's -- is your license a county license
now?
MR. MATTHEW: Yes, it is.
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July 19, 2000
MR. GONZALEZ: Okay.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: If we don't have any other questions, I'd
like to entertain a motion.
MR. GONZALEZ: I have a question for staff.
Any problems with Mr. Matthew in the past?
MR. BARTOE: We've had no complaints against this
company, no.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: I move that the action be approved.
MR. GONZALEZ: I second.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any
further discussion?
All in favor?
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well, Mr. Matthew, now you can go
to the state, start all over.
MR. NEALE: Actually, he may not have to.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, before we move forward, I want
to back up --
MR. NONNENMACHER: Can I say one thing? You can pick
up your license tomorrow.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I want to back up just a minute and
welcome a new board member, Walter Mitchell Crawford. He's a
general contractor, he'll be replacing Robert Meister. Welcome
to the board.
Okay, the next item of new business, Jeff Popick, request to
qualify a second entity.
Mr. Popick, are you here?
MR. POPICK: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm going to have to ask you to get
sworn in, sir.
MR. POPICK: Okay.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name, sir, for the record?
MR. POPICK: Jeff Popick.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And your reason for being here this
morning?
MR. POPICK: To qualify a second entity.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: You currently qualify General Concrete
Corporation?
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July 19, 2000
MR. POPICK.' Correct.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: What kind of license does that --
MR. POPICK: It's actually a registered general contractor's
license. But we work primarily as a sub for GC's.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And you want to qualify a company
called Custom Steel Homes Corporation?
MR. POPICK: Correct. That will be actually a builder to
build, as it says, custom steel framed homes. It will be the best
homes built anywhere in the State of Florida.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Custom Steel Homes Corporation is a
new business?
MR. POPICK: It's a new business.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: What is the new business going to do?
MR. POPICK: We are going to build steel framed homes. The
exterior walls, interior walls, roof trusses. If it's a two or
three-story home, the floor system, staircases, everything will be
framed out of steel. And then we'll also complete the home. But
they're custom steel framed homes.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: Just as a matter of interest, of all the
houses that are built in Collier County, what percentage of them
use this type of construction, steel?
MR. POPICK: Currently? To the best of my knowledge, zero.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: That's why I asked.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That differs from metal studs?
MR. POPICK: Well, mostly the metal stud framing you see is
interior. They now started using this -- well, recently, fairly
recently, they're using the steel studs for interior framing, plus
what we now know, wood is not a quality building material, and
we are taking that a step further and doing the whole thing out of
steel, with the exception obviously of the concrete foundation.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So you're saying the exterior walls will
be framed in metal studs as well?
MR. POPICK: Correct. So it's a heavier gauged steel than
the interior walls, but steel studs.
MR. CRAWFORD: As well as the trusses. It's a good system.
It's been around for probably 20 or more years, I think.
MR. POPICK: It's being developed. There's been some
resistance, but more and more people are taking to it. And even
the subs that have to work with it, as they -- there's a -- there's a
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July 19, 2000
MR. CRAWFORD: There's a learning curve there that --
MR. POPICK: Exactly.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: What does it cost such a structure as
compared to either frame or CBS or anything else?
MR. POPICK: Actually, the materials themselves are a little
bit more expensive. Though we expect as this progresses in the
next 5, 10, 20 years, that will change. But the labor involved to
put it up, they go up so fast that it offsets the material costs. So
in effect you can actually build a steel frame home for cheaper
than either wood or concrete.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: As a businessman, you must have a
business plan. Five years from now, what percentage of
buildings are going to be that way? You just told me zero today.
What do you think it's going to be five years from now?
MR. POPICK: Overall, or with my company?
MR. SCHOENFUSS: Overall.
MR. POPICK: I don't have any type of projections. I don't
know. I know that when we start, we -- I have several in the
plans now. When they start going up, people are going to buy
them, because they are superior in absolutely every way to
concrete or wood. There are absolutely no drawbacks, and they
are beneficial in absolutely every way. They're stronger, they're
much more environmentally friendly, they are obviously termite --
100 percent impervious to termites. Fire resistent, they slow the
speed on fire on it. They are beneficial in terms of lightning
protection, because they're an immediate ground as opposed to
concrete or wood, which has to find ground. Anything you can
discuss on any type of benefit and drawback, steel has all the
benefits, none of the drawbacks.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: My only comment is I think this
gentleman is on the right track.
MR. BARTOE: Mr. Chairman? If you want to go over to Grey
Oaks, they've been building them over there for about three
years. I watched them put them up. In the phase that's over by
Wyndemere, there's quite a few of them in there.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: They're still standing upright?
MR. JOSLIN: No termites.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: No termites, that's for sure.
Any other questions from the board?
MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Chairman, if I may, I have a
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July 19, 2000
question.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're going to have to come up to the
podium, Mr. Nonnenmacher, or get your own microphone.
MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Chairman, members of the
board, for the record, my name is Bob Nonnenmacher, license
compliance officer.
Mr. Popick, correct me if I'm wrong, approximately a year
ago, weren't you in front of this board as a witness defending an
unlicensed contractor?
MR. POPICK: I wasn't defending an unlicensed contractor, I
was defending a friend who people have foreclaimed (sic.) was
an unlicensed contractor.
MR. NONNENMACHER.' And is it not true that this board
found that contractor in violation and did determine he was
unlicensed and was fined?
MR. POPICK: I believe so, but I can't -- I don't know. That's --
MR. BARTOE: Mr. Nonnenmacher, that's correct. However,
that was July of 1999, and the fine is still unpaid to this day.
MR. NONNENMACHER: That's the only question I have, Mr.
Chairman.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, I'm trying to understand. We
didn't fine Mr. Popick?
MR. NONNENMACHER: No. From -- if my memory serves me
right, and correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Popick hired an unlicensed
contractor. That unlicensed contractor appealed his citation to
this board, and the board found that that contractor was in
violation and was unlicensed.
With a finding like that, it would stand to reason that Mr.
Popick did in fact hire an unlicensed contractor.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: He was, however, not cited.
MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Popick was not cited.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: He was not cited.
MR. NONNENMACHER.' But as a license holder, he did hire
an unlicensed contractor, according to the decision of this board.
MR. POPICK: That's not true. That's absolutely incorrect. I
think what you guys found that he did was circulate a flier. It
had nothing to do with me hiring him. It was that he apparently
had circulated a flier, and that's what you guys voted to -- that he
in fact did circulate a flier. It had nothing to do with me. I was
here as a witness because he was a friend of mine.
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July 19, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I seem to vaguely remember a little bit
of that. I'd have to search the record to confirm exactly what the
findings were. And I remember the flier that you were talking
about. If in fact you --
MR. POPICK: But I didn't even have any knowledge of the
flier.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: If in fact you weren't cited by this
municipality for hiring unlicensed contractors, then I don't know
that we can actually use that as a determination.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: This might be very embarrassing to Mr.
Popick, but is it relevant to what we're doing this morning? MR. LAIRD: I don't see any relevancy.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I think that one of the questions
that we ask on every individual that asks to qualify a second
entity is has the staff got any record of any complaints, et cetera
and so forth on this individual first. So in a roundabout way, I do
believe it is pertinent.
MR. NEALE: I have a copy of the citation in front of me here.
I don't have the record but I do have a copy of the citation,
which was issued June 22nd of '99 to a Matthew John Rowan.
And the location of the violation was 999 Spruce Court, was
where the citation was issued, which is I believe -- MR. POPICK: That's my home.
MR. NEALE: -- is Mr. Popick's address.
MR. POPICK: Apparently Mr. Bartoe had been looking for
him supposedly for a long time. And I guess they found him at
my house. But again, I was here solely as a witness for him. In
fact, when Mr. Bartoe came out to cite him, I confronted Mr.
Bartoe and I said, "He's a friend painting my house, is he not
allowed to do that?" And they let him finish painting my house,
because he was a friend and he was painting my house, and
friends are allowed to paint people's houses.
MR. BARTOE: I would like it on the record I did not let
anyone continue painting the house.
MR. POPICK: Oh, I'm sorry, he -- he didn't allow it, I called
his boss. And I don't remember who his boss was. But then he
said go ahead and finish painting the house. And then he didn't
come out anymore. So I apologize for that.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Is this the only record that we have of
any infractions on Mr. Popick's case?
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July 19, 2000
MR. BARTOE: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: No other complaints?
MR. BARTOE: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other questions from the board?
After reviewing his application for second entity, his credit
report and the whole packet, do we have anybody interested in
making a motion?
MR. LAIRD: I would so move, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That we approve it?
MR. LAIRD: That we approve it, yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion. I need a second.
MR. JOSLIN: I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any
further discussion?
All in favor?
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Motion carries.
MR. POPICK: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well.
MR. BARTOE: Mr. Popick, you won't be able to come into
the office and obtain your new license until tomorrow. MR. POPICK: That's fine.
MR. GONZALEZ: May I say something? He is registered
with the state, so he'll go to the state -- MR. NEALE: Right.
MR. GONZALEZ: -- to get his final --
MR. NEALE: Right.
MS. PUIG: He's not licensed for --
MR. POPICK: I'm sorry?
MS. PUIG: It will still take you six to eight weeks before you
can contract.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, next item of business, Daniel
Denis, request to qualify second entity. Mr. Denis, are you here?
MR. BARTOE: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Denis is not here. A
representative of the company is here. I guess it was a staff
mixup. Mr. Denis changed vacation plans. It cost him extra
money because supposedly someone in staff advised him the
wrong date of this meeting today. So possibly this other
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July 19, 2000
representative of the company can answer your questions,
hopefully. And if not, maybe next month.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, would you come up to the
podium, please? I'm going to have to ask you to get sworn in,
first.
THE COURT REPORTER: May I have your name and spell
your last name, please?
MS. TRENT: Jean Trent. T-R-E-N-T.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And what is your relationship to Mr.
Denis?
MS. TRENT: Mr. Denis is a friend of my husband's and mine,
and he is going to -- he would like to qualify a new business for
my husband, myself and my son.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I do have one question. What company
does Mr. Denis qualify today?
MS. TRENT: He owns Excel Pools of Naples.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: Why is that not listed under Item 9 on
the application?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you.
MS. TRENT: I'm not sure. I don't have the application in
front of me and I don't --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: The application that he speaks of is the
application to qualify second entity. And Item No. 9, it says lists
all businesses, firms, entities and contracting businesses you
have been established with, ex-qualified or partner with during
the last 10 years.
MS. TRENT: I'm sorry, we must have missed that when we
filled out the application.
MR. GONZALEZ: Excuse me, Ms. Trent, what is Mr. Denis'
interest in All Collier Pool Care?
MS. TRENT: He -- we formed a corporation. He is a 10
percent stockholder and he's a board member. And he's again a
friend of ours, and we wanted to start this business, and he
agreed to qualify us until we were able to get a license on our
own.
MR. GONZALEZ: But he is only a 10 percent shareholder?
MS. TRENT: He's a 10 percent shareholder. He does have --
he will have check writing authority. And he -- what was the
other thing? And he is a board member.
MS. WHITE: Do we have credit reports on -- on this?
Page 15
July 19, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I see a credit report on Excel Pools, but
not on the individual himself.
MS. WHITE: But not on the principal.
MS. TRENT: We were told to get one for Excel Pools.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Not one on the individual?
MS. TRENT: You mean on Mr. Denis?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right.
MS. TRENT: No, we were not asked to do that.
MR. GONZALEZ: Ms. Trent, what kind of business are you in
now?
MS. TRENT: Right now I work for a -- for Health
Management Associates. I will just be doing the books and what
have you. And my husband has been working somewhat with Mr.
Denis, and my son is moving down from Delaware to go into
business with us.
MR. GONZALEZ: How many years has your husband been
doing pool work?
MS. TRENT: He's been doing pool work on and off for 15, 20
years.
MR. GONZALEZ: What will the extent of the work that All
Collier Pools will be doing?
MS. TRENT: We will be doing cleaning, service and repairs.
MR. GONZALEZ: No building of new pools?
MS. TRENT: No, absolutely not.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, I'm going to ask Mr. Bartoe, isn't
it our procedure, when they ask for second entity qualification,
to get a credit report on the individual, not the business?
MR. BARTOE: I'm going to ask Judy. I don't know.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I see her nodding, but I think for the
record, Judy, I'm going to have to ask you to come up to the
podium and confirm that.
MR. BARTOE: See, I knew I brought Judy for a good reason.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Oh, you know, this could spoil us.
MR. NEALE: I think we --
MS. PUIG: The normal procedure --
MR. NEALE: -- need Judy here every week.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: One at a time.
MS. PUIG: The normal procedure is we do request a credit
report on the individual always, and then one on the new
company, if it's been in business for more than a year, and one
Page 16
July 19, 2000
on the existing company. So there should have been a credit
report on the gentleman.
MR. BARTOE: So I will --
MS. PUIG: Unfortunately, that was an error on another staff
member.
MR. BARTOE'. That's what I was going to add, apparently we
had an error by a staff member.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I'm going to tell you at this point
that without any credit history on the individual himself, that I
am very hesitant to go any further with this. Since he's not here
as well. I don't know what one month will do to his world, but I
for one would suggest that we allow you some time to get a
personal credit report in with the application packet before we
go any further.
MR. BARTOE: Mr. Chairman, may I ask, is it possible, if
everything else appears in order for the board, for the board to
approve it pending us receiving an acceptable credit report for
the license holder?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: We about did that to a case last month,
I thought. And we were going to put -- was it you on the hot
seat?
MR. BARTOE: I wasn't here last month.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Nonnenmacher I think we were
going to put on the hot seat. And as it turned out, he had one in
the car, and before our session ended, he came in and brought it,
so we settled that issue.
I don't have a problem with that, if we wanted to grant a
temporary --
MR. BARTOE: Just to add what I said, all new licenses that
are issued, you know, we review them and if we have any
questions, we bring them before you.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Anybody have any other
questions?
MS. WHITE: Would it matter if we waited a month? I mean,
he's not here, we don't have the credit report.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I think what Mr. Bartoe is
suggesting might be valid in the fact that it's possible that one of
the staff members gave the applicant some erroneous direction.
MS. WHITE: Well --
MS. PUIG: Excuse me, he's still not going to get licensed --
Page 17
July 19, 2000
THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, could you come to the
mike.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Got to come up. There is a microphone
around the corner there that you can sit down on that table and
you can squawk at me any time you want to.
MS. PUIG: He still won't get licensed after you approve him.
He still has to go before the state board, because he is a
registered contractor. So if we get the credit report and it looks
good, we can go ahead and issue the comp. card, if it's approved
by you guys. And then he still has to go before the state board.
So it will take him six to eight weeks yet before they can
contract.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. So perhaps we could make a
motion to approve this, pending staffs review and approval of a
personal credit report.
MR. NEALE: And the state board's going to have to look at a
credit report --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And the state's going to do it --
MR. NEALE: -- and everything else.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right.
Okay, how about a motion? Anybody interested in making a
motion?
I'll make a motion that we approve it pending staff's review
of the credit report. If they approve it, then his license is -- he
has the consent of this board.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: Second.
MR. LAIRD: I'll second that.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. All in
favor?
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well.
MS. TRENT: May I just ask one question? You need a
personal one on him. Do you also need one on me personally,
since we own the new business, or --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: No, ma'am, I need the qualifying
agent's.
MS. TRENT: Just his, okay.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: The qualifying agent is the individual
that takes full responsibility for the financial problems of --
Page 18
July 19, 2000
MS. TRENT: Right.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- this new business.
MS. TRENT: Right.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And that is one of the concerns that we
have at this board level, that is qualifying agent's not quite sure
what he's opening himself up for. So us granting this without his
presence sometimes makes us nervous, because we will discuss
things here to him, turning on a light on upstairs saying oh, wait
a minute, I didn't realize that this was totally my responsibility.
MS. TRENT: Right.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So it's a little bit of concern of this
board that we approve this without his presence, as it is. MS. TRENT: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Next item, William A. Albertson, Sr.,
request for approval for a roof/coat/paint/clean license, with a
grade of 71.7 from the painting exam. Mr. Albertson, are you here?
MR. BARTOE: Mr. Chairman, while working yesterday, I
received a call on the radio from office staff advising that he
couldn't make it today. And I did advise office staff to tell him
that this board probably would not make any decision without
him being here. And I would advise if this got postponed or not.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I don't have a problem postponing it. I
reviewed his application, and I don't know that I've ever seen an
applicant apply for anything at this board with such a thick
packet. This man did his homework. He's gotten all kinds of
letters of recommendation. Just more papers than I've ever
seen. Corporate authorization resolution, amendments. I've just
never seen a package so full. So he's definitely done his
homework, I do believe, at this point.
It's probably a shame that he's not here, because the man
has worked this hard at qualifying, or putting his packet
together. He's definitely serious about his business. But I don't
have a problem if we want to move it to the agenda of next
month.
MR. GONZALEZ: Yeah, I move that we move it to next
month's agenda.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion. I need a second.
MR. JOSLIN: Second.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. All in
Page19
July 19, 2000
favor? Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES:
for next month.
Very well, we'll just put it on the agenda
Okay, Item No. 5, workshop ordinance amendments.
Mr. Neale, you've got some tidy little neat paperwork we can
MR. NEALE: I don't have a lot of tidy, neat paperwork. We
haven't developed that yet. We wanted -- I think the purpose of
this one was more to have staff and Mr. Zachary and myself and
the board give some input on suggestions or thoughts from
working with the ordinance as to what areas the -- would be
appropriate for amendment or change.
You know, I think it happens to this board often that in the
midst of the consideration, there's a glitch in the ordinance or a
confusion or apparent contradiction that would be -- could be
remedied by some modifications.
Mr. Zachary and I met for a while a couple weeks ago and
talked about it. And I know Judy's been working on some things
and the rest of the staff. So what I'd suggest is that we have
some input here, and then Mr. Zachary and I will get together
over the course of the next month and try and come up with a
proposed strike-through underline draft for this board to look at.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: If I may also suggest that since we are
fortunate enough to have Judy with us today, our goal and effort
on this board is to make your job as smooth and proper as
possible. Interpretations of the statutes, interpretations of the
ordinances, complications of the process, misunderstandings of
the process is extremely difficult on you sitting right there at the
desk that you sit at and having to face these individuals.
One of our goals is to make that process as proper as
possible and as easily as possible for you to adhere to so that
there's no discrepancies, questions, arguments or debates over
what the process actually is.
I'm going to ask you to be a part of that workshop, if you
can, with Mr. Zachary and Mr. Neale. I know that the attorneys
know what needs to be there, but from a practical standpoint,
you definitely know what needs to be there. And then of course
the attorneys can review its substance and necessity with you.
Page 20
July 19, 2000
But I would very much like for you -- and you probably
already are a big part of the ordinance review anyway, being on
the front line like you are. So as long as you're part of this
process, I'm real satisfied with our work shopping it as well. But
I just didn't want us to try to do things and make some
suggestions that you're not a part of, because you're standing
there as a bumper of the car and saying no, no, this doesn't work.
And I don't want to make your life any more complicated than it
already is down there.
Okay, so you guys are going to put together some time on it
and then bring it perhaps to this board and we'll do a workshop?
MR. NEAI. E.' As I said, what I think we'd like to do today is
workshop the issues that the board, you know, has under
consideration, and some of the issues that staff, Mr. Zachary and
I have, and get board's direction to start making these changes
in this ordinance, then bring back a modified version for the
board's review next month, have the board take a look at it, and
we'll try and get it to the board substantially before the meeting
so the board can review it. Then we'll have another workshop
next month, would be my suggestion, to sort of finalize that, if
that's --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Zachary?
MR. ZACHARY: In the absence of jumping up like a Jack in
the Box, I got the microphone for it. But I think my view is I don't
want to start fixing something that nobody thinks is broken.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: There's no question.
MR. ZACHARY: With just that little bit of input. I mean, I
think that the things that don't work exactly, that's the only
things that we should really be addressing at this point.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: One of the things that we try to do all
year long is none of us memory is just perfect, so as we try to
enforce this ordinance throughout the year on this board level,
we run into glitches from time to time. And hopefully they're
recorded in our minutes. And the suggestions that come up is
that this is one of those things we need to review when we have
the workshop for the ordinance. I don't know how -- any other
way to flag it.
But in the last 12 months since we've had the last review, I
guess, I'm sure there are some questions that have come up,
some ambiguities that have come up, some recommendations
Page 21
July '19, 2000
that have come up. It's hard for us to sit here today and think of
all those that have come up throughout the last year. I don't
know how to flag them any other way except that they are in the
minutes, and if we wanted to go through the last 12 months of
minutes to try to find out those issues would be one way to do it.
Mr. Neale, I believe that you pretty well tried to put a flag on
it yourself through your little -- your computer a lot of times so
that we can have that at the workshop time. And that's what I'm
getting at. At this point right now I don't remember us running
into some problems that I can put my finger on that we need to
suggest to review for amendment. Does anybody else have any?
I know we did run into some glitches.
MR. NEALE: There's some areas, and Mr. Zachary I think
has some notes, and we, he and I, talked about it.
There's one area in particular that just came up today with
Mr. Joslin's discussion, and that Mr. Zachary and I talked about,
is the issue of reciprocity. We don't address it directly in the
ordinance, we don't have a written policy on it, and I think it
would make life a lot easier on staff and on everybody else if
there -- the board did adopt and suggest to the Board of County
Commissioners an ordinance provision wherein reciprocity is
specifically addressed in our ordinance.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I was asked -- I don't know how it
happened, but I was asked about four or five years ago to
actually compile that wordage. And it was by the county
attorney's office at that time. I compiled that wordage, sent it to
the county attorney's office, sent it to staff, and never saw it in
the ordinance, never saw it in the amendments. So I don't know
what happened, where it got stopped at that point.
But I fully agree with you, that even four or five years ago I
felt that we needed a formal reciprocity procedure. And we don't
have it. So I honestly believe we actually need something to
cover ourselves formally in the ordinance.
MR. NEALE: I guess the question that I have at that point
then is what the feelings of the board is as far as granting of
reciprocity or not granting of reciprocity, how loose or restrictive
a language would the board like to see us work on crafting.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, case in point is perhaps one that
we were going to hear today, the individual asking that we
Page 22
July 19, 2000
reciprocate with his license is doing business in Sarasota County
and has for some time and has a considerable amount of
references as good business dealings. Yet he only made a 71.5
on the exam and we require a minimum 75 in Collier County.
This guy was registered with the state, has been practicing
with a license in Sarasota County for quite some time, but he
can't do business in Collier because he only made a 71.77 You
know, that's one of those little glitches that concerns me. We
require a minimum 75 test score. This poor fellow would not be
qualified to work here, even though he's a proven businessman.
MR. BALZANO: That wouldn't be reciprocity. Reciprocity
means I'll take yours, you take mine. That doesn't mean I'm not
going to take yours because you got a 70.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: But we've done that in the past. We
have denied individuals to get --
MR. BALZANO: It doesn't say that.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- a license -- pardon me?
MR. BALZANO: It doesn't say that. Reciprocity doesn't say
we're going to reciprocate with you if you got a good enough
mark.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, see, that's our whole point.
MR. NEALE: We have no formal reciprocity problem --
process, and that's the whole issue is --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Exactly. If we put it in writing, then we
don't have to worry about it. It's just a matter of today's whim.
That doesn't work.
So I agree with you, reciprocity should be in writing,
verbatim and be done with it.
Okay, any other issues on that?
MR. ZACHARY: Could I jump in there? Some things that I'm
thinking of is how do we want to do it? I mean, we can label it
reciprocity, but does this board want anybody that can do
business in any other county with whatever kind of qualifications
that they have in that county be able to come in to this county
and go ahead and perform that occupation?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: No, what I'm going to suggest is that if
they are state registered, then we must consider it a lot heavier
than if they're county competency carded only.
MR. ZACHARY: Okay. Well, I had a -- someone came to our
office a month or so ago. I think he was a tree trimmer from
Page 23
July 19, 2000
Sarasota. And he couldn't understand why he couldn't do
business here. He'd been trimming trees. And we tried to
explain to him that are certain qualifications he has to have,
certain exams he has to take, but I really couldn't answer his
question.
But is that the kind of things we're going to look at sort of
on a case-by-case basis? Are the people going to have to come
before the board in order to do business here, or are we going to
have a set of standards that can be looked at by staff and they
can automatically say yeah, you qualify because you've done the
same things that Collier County people do, and just issue them a
license?
And those are the kinds of questions that I think we need
direction from you all to set some sort of standards and
parameters for staff to look at and -- in order to make this thing,
quote, reciprocity, unquote, work.
MR. NEALE: The other issue, and following on a little bit on
what Mr. Zachary said, is we have a large number of license
categories here in Collier County. More than other counties, less
than some. But in a lot of cases we have categories that other
counties don't have. And someone may have been operating
with solely an occupational license in Pasco County, and they
come down here and they find out that to be a tree trimmer in
Collier County, they have to have a license.
And so in that instance, you know, would we -- we need
more direction. If someone has been operating a particular type
of business that we require licensure for but another county
doesn't, and can prove that they have, do we give them
reciprocity also?
So these are the kind of issues that, as Mr. Zachary says,
we'd like some board direction on as to how tight or loose do you
want this to be. And maybe Judy can give us some input from
being there on the front lines as to what she would like to see,
too,
MS. PUIG: Well, right now the only thing that we reciprocate
are the grade scores. So if they make 75 percent or higher in any
other county, those counties send us a letter. They still have to
fill out application, we still need experience letters, we still need
credit report insurance. We need the whole nine yards for them
to get licensed here. So the only thing we reciprocate right now
Page 24
July 19, 2000
is their grades.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And where in the ordinance does it say
we do that?
MS. PUIG: Nowhere.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's what I'm getting at.
MS. WHITE: I would think this would have to be on a
case-by-case basis. Because just like this issue we're going to
take up next month, the man's been in business for a long, long
time, he's a few points short of what we require. And perhaps
he's not articulate to take the exam, and yet he's excellent in his
business. And I just wonder whether this should be a
case-by-case thing or--
MR. NEALE: Although there --
MS. WHITE: -- it's just set that it has to be 75.
MR. NEALE: You know, the thing is, there are some
communities in the state, to the best of my knowledge, that if
you walk in with a competency card from Collier County -- not
necessarily Collier, but from another county with which they
have reciprocity, drop your card on the table, all they do is take
your money and hand you one of theirs. Nothing further.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's correct. That's probably been
the way it's been for a long, long time in most of the other
counties in the state.
MR. NEALE: I mean, most other counties, it's just like taking
your driver's license in and saying you're a driver. If you're
licensed in X, Y, Z county to be a pool servicing contractor and
you go walking into the next county and hand them your license,
all they do is just say write us a check for the fee, here's your
card, have a good day.
MR. BALZANO: See, that's not fair to the people that have a
Collier County comp. license and they took an exam and went by
the books. Sarasota is notorious. 90 percent of the drywall
contractors we get have an $85 license they bought up in
Sarasota. They all go up there and buy a license. No one takes
an exam.
MR. NEALE: Well, and see, that's -- the issue is, because the
state, from my discussions with them and from Mr. Palmer's past
discussions with them, they would like us to have no other
categories other than state certified and registered contractor
categories, and everybody else get to go do their own thing.
Page 25
July 19, 2000
I think it's been this board's policy, at least as long as I've
been here, that this board wishes to have more control over
contractors in Collier County, rather than less, to protect the
citizenry.
So therefore, you know, it really bears very strongly on this
issue of -- the way that it's currently being done, and it probably,
if this is the board's pleasure that it continues to be done this
way, it should be embodied in the ordinance, as Mr. Zachary
suggests, in a section that's called reciprocity or lack thereof,
that this board sets a policy that Collier County does not have --
accept licenses from anywhere else without the applicant having
met all of the conditions of having a license in Collier County.
That's a statement the board could make.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that's what I'm going to perhaps
suggest, getting back to Ms. White's comment a minute ago, on a
case-by-case basis. I'm going to suggest perhaps that we
recommend to the county attorney's office that we define
reciprocity; that if the county of which he is licensed in currently
has the same qualifications as this county, then we
automatically give him his license without any further
paperwork. If in fact there is some difference, then that
individual must come before this board for review.
MR. NEALE: The only difficulty I see with that -- and I think
Judy is about ready to shoot a flare up on this one -- there's 67
counties and Lord knows how many municipalities in the State of
Florida. That would mean that we would have to have every one
of their codes in Judy's office.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, no, no, wait a minute. I'm going to
suggest to you this way.' That when an individual comes to apply
for a license in this county, they're generally going to have
copies for everything they applied for the license in the other
county. And if they don't, then they should have, or -- that's not
too much to ask.
And my point to that is that rather than you to know the
ordinance of that county, when they come and qualify and put
together a packet to ask for a license here, you can review all
that data at that point in time. And if it meets our standards, it's
approved. If it doesn't meet our standards, then we come to the
board.
I don't expect you to say well, Pinelias County has -- I know
Page 26
July 19, 2000
Pinelias County's law, and under Pinelias County's law they
qualify. I'm just saying that when they come to you and apply for
a license, they have to put together a packet. And in that
particular case, if all those are approved, or equal to what our
qualifications are, then it's rubber stamped.
MR. NEALE: No, essentially what we're saying is no
reciprocity. Somebody has to come in with a full application
packet for -- to come into Collier County to work.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, again, I don't know that I want to
-- yeah, perhaps that's what I'm saying. I didn't want to go
through -- put a poor individual through all of the hoops that he
just came through in another county.
Case in point, you mentioned earlier that he has to have his
letter of references. You know, if an individual comes to you
with a state registered license, that's all the references I'm
interested in.
MR. NEALE: But, you know, not to play devil's advocate, but
if he's got a state registered license but he's been in business for
15 years, his application packet is long down the river. He hasn't
had a credit report pulled on him in 15 years. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay.
MR. NEALE: All he's been doing to the state is sending in,
you know, his fees and proof that he's done his continuing
education, if necessary. And that's it.
So the -- you know, he would still have to generate an
effectively new application to prove up the fact that he was --
that he met our -- the Collier County standards.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I don't know. I'm going to say once
again in my opinion that if he is -- had a license for 20 years
registered with the state, then I'm not going to feel that I'm
brilliant enough to stop him from trying to do business in this
county. I'm saying that in the absence of state registration, he
must produce the entire application packet. But if he has -- if
he's actually registered with the state, I think we're being
redundant to try to go any further than to verify his registration.
MS. WHITE: Mr. Neale, does he have to present to state
every year a new credit report or anything like that? MR. NEALE: No.
MS. WHITE: So he could go 15 years without that.
MR. NEALE: Right. The only thing --
Page 27
July 19, 2000
MS. WHITE: That concerns me for Collier County.
MR. NEALE: As far as I understand -- and we've got
registered contractors here, so they could probably tell me that
I'm full of hooey, but my understanding of the way the process
works is to maintain your state registration, you send in your
fees, and if necessary, you send in proof of continuing education,
and that's it.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah, but I'd do the same thing as the
state registered license. You know, I've been registered for 10
years, longer than that, 12 years in the State of Florida. Nobody's
ever reviewed me on any level. So what difference does it
make?
MR. NEALE: But we're talking about contractors coming in
new to Collier County.
MS. WHITE: You're already here, Gary.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I know. But I'm still saying, I don't
get any reviews, and I practice in the county. MS. WHITE: You're grandfathered in.
MR. NONNENMACHER: We're going to change that right
now.
MR. GONZALEZ: Can I make a clarification? None of this
would apply to a state certified contractor. MR. NEALE: No.
MR. GONZALEZ: A state certified can go to any county and
just buy a license, showing his state license, correct?
MR. NEALE: But this -- the issue, as Mr. Hayes is expressing,
is the difference between state registered and non-state
registered or registrable contractors. And I think the issue
needs to be clear that this is for someone who has been
practicing the trade in another county and wishes to come into
Collier County to practice the same trade. And I see the issue as
being how do we analyze that they are competent and stable
enough to inflict them on our citizenry.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: There are two ways to look at it: One is
zero, zip, completely isolated license procedure. We don't
reciprocate with no one on any level, period. Or we reciprocate.
And this is what I'm questioning. If we want to make all of those
qualifications so tidy and neat according to our standards all the
time, then forget reciprocity, period.
MR. BALZANO: Mr. Chairman --
Page 28
July 19, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Let's just do it according to our
standards and be done with it.
MR. BALZANO: -- I think if you ask Judy, the majority of the
people trying to get a reciprocatory license are specialty
contractors that have bought a license in another county that
have not taken an exam that we require; am I right?
We don't have a building contractor that's licensed in
Pinelias County coming down here to build a house, okay? We
don't have a plumbing contractor from Citrus County coming
down here to do plumbing. We have roofers that are coming
down to clean a roof, we have tree trimmers, we have stucco
contractors, we have drywall contractors that are coming down
here or coming over from the east coast and they're doing work
for 2 and $3.00 a board less than the local people. You got tile
contractors coming over here left and right from Dade County
laying tile for a buck a foot when the guys here are getting $3.00
a foot. And all they did was go into Dade County, give them $85
and they're licensed. Now, I don't think we should give a license
here unless they take an exam, like our specialty contractors
did.
If they took an exam, and I think somewhere in there, it says
-- it used to say a block and associate's are equivalent.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: Equivalent an exam.
MR. NEALE: Right.
MR. BARTOE: Not equivalent exam.
MR. BALZANO: Well, if a guy goes in and pays $85, to me
that's not an equivalent exam. We don't even know if he knows
how to run a business. He went in and bought a license. And
there's a number of counties where you just go in and buy those
licenses.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: But there also is something to be said
about experience. A man's been in business for 10 years and he
bought it for 85 bucks 10 years ago and he's got a good track
record, it's hard for me to dispute his ability or question his
ability to run a business.
MR. BARTOE.' That person would end up before you --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that's right.
MR. BARTOE: -- for your approval. Just like this one that
didn't show today.
MR. NEALE: Well, and the other one that I would like to
Page 29
July 19, 2000
remind the board is a couple of months ago, I think it was, we
had the roofer who was coming down to put a roof on a big box
building. And that was his only reason of trying to get a roofing
license here. And if I remember correctly, the board did not
grant him his license to operate here.
MS. PAHL: There was another one, too, of the steel
contractor who was putting up the steel for Michael's up there by
Home Depot. He made the statement --
MR. NEALE: That was the one, not the roofer.
MS. PAHL: -- he made the statement, "1'11 put it up and you'll
never see me again."
MR. NEALE.' Not one of his better statements on the record,
but -- I probably wouldn't have advised him to say that.
But I think that's the issue is -- it's an issue of how
protective of both the tradespeople and the citizenry of Collier
County this board wants to be.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, once again, if he's state certified,
there's nothing we can say or do about it, period. And what kind
of problems does that cause us in Collier County? None. If--
MS. PUIG: None, because they're major trades. They're
general building residential contractors. But you're dealing with
specialty trades. You got a floor covering contractor in Lee
County just needs an occupational license, that's all they need.
Come to Collier County, you've got to take an exam, you've got to
show two years experience in the trade, give us credit reports,
insurance, all of that. Same thing with tree trimming and
removal. No license is required in Lee County. They've got to
take a test for Collier County.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. And those licenses are then
registered with the state?
MS. PUIG: No, they're specialty trades.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's what I'm trying to get at. If
they're not registered with the state, that to me is a whole
different category of qualifying than a state registered license
would be.
So my point is we've got three categories: We've got state
certified licenses, state registered licenses and local specialty
licenses, period, to deal with. The certified license we can't do
anything about.
MS. PUIG: Right, we just make them register with a $10 fee
Page 30
July 19, 2000
every two years.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, I'm questioning should we do
almost the same thing with a state registered license now.
MS. PUIG.' No, because they have to have a local
competency card in order to register with the state.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's my point. Those aren't the ones
causing the problems. It's the specialty contractors that are
causing the problem.
MS. PUIG: Right.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm going to tell you that if it's not a
state registered license, that if it is a locally comp. carded
license only, then I think they should meet every qualifying
requirement in this county, period.
MS. PUIG: Okay. So all the major trades that are registered
could just possibly fill out a one-page application for information
that we need for our computer system saying okay, this is
reciprocity through whatever county, and then possibly give us a
credit report at the time, show proof of comp. card from the
county they're out of and their state registered license, fill out an
application form and give us proof of a credit report, and then
they can get a local license here.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm just tossing that out at this point.
I'm saying that if the problem is a specialty license holder to
begin with, we don't need to complicate everybody else's world
because of that. We can focus directly on the requirements for
the specialty licensed individual in Collier County.
MS. PUIG.' Yeah, we can do that.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other --
MR. NEALE: The only issue to that is while the statute does
describe what each of these registered contractors does, it does
not set out the standards for competency. Okay, it doesn't set
the testing requirements and so forth for a pool contractor or
even a plumbing contractor, frankly.
MR. JOSLIN: A registered license doesn't do it?
MR. NEALE: I don't believe -- in the statute it sets out, at
least what I see it sets out, what the -- what the scope of the
work covers and all that, and what you have to know, but it
doesn't say that you need an "X" grade on this test and that you
have to do this, that and the other thing, you know, that you have
to have 75 percent grade on the test and that you have to have a
Page 31
July 19, 2000
passing grade on the business and law exam and "X" number of
years of training.
MR. JOSLIN: What determines what? Who determines that?
MR. NEALE: The county does, because it's the county comp.
card that you have to use to get registered. So the county
determines what the standards are, the state determines what
the standards cover. Okay?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: But see, once again --
MR. JOSLIN: It's still confusing.
MR. NEALE.' That's why somebody can get a 70 in one
county and a 70 -- and not have been able to get a license in
Collier.
MR. JOSLIN: I think we better review this more, because I
think we're confused here. Only because I've been doing this for
about 18 years, okay?
Now, maybe I'm wrong, and that could very well be, and I'll
stand corrected if I am. However, when I got my license a lot of
years ago, I went and took a test, okay? It was a block test. I
got my license via State of Florida, Department of DPR. They
sent me a test with a number and all this, with my name on it. I
presented that to Joy Muncie when I got it. And then she then
issued me a comp. card and occupational license that went
along with it that allowed me to work in Collier County.
On the license it says very clear, I have to meet local
requirements. It doesn't say Collier County requirements, it says
I must meet local requirements on that license. So that license
is a technical registered license with the state to do swimming
pool/spa contracting. Only thing I'm doing is saying that I'm
going to only work in Collier County as of right now. So I'm going
to present it to her, she's going to give me an occupational
license that allows me to work here.
MR. NEALE: But if you had taken that same exam -- and this
is the way that I perceive the process works -- you'd taken that
same exam and instead of getting a 75 plus, you'd gotten a 70 on
it--
MR. JOSLIN: Right.
MR. NEALE: -- you could have taken that same test result to
a county that allows a 70 and gotten your license there but not
have taken that test result to Collier County and gotten your
license.
Page 32
July 19, 2000
MR. JOSLIN: I see what you mean. Okay.
MR. NEALE: Okay. And that's the big thing. The test is
state-wide, but each county has some flexibility in setting out
what the experience requirements are, what the test
requirements are, things like that.
So the -- you know, Collier County can say you have to take
the plumbing -- you have to take the swimming pool/spa servicing
contractor test, and Collier County can say but you have to get a
75 on it, whereas, Sarasota may say you have to get a 70 on it.
MR. BALZANO: In Lee County, they won't accept his
license. They'll only accept, I think in the major trades, a state
certified license. You can be a Collier County general
contractor, and Lee County will not allow you to work in their
county. They only accept state licenses.
So being a state registered general contractor from Collier
County doesn't mean anything in Lee County. MR. NEALE: Unless you get certified.
MR. BALZANO: You've got to be state certified.
MR. NEALE: Am I correct, Judy?
MS. PUIG: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's a little bit intense, I believe, but
they've done that for quite some years now.
MR. BALZANO: I mean, they don't reciprocate.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: It would be interesting to hear how
their world has evolved since they made that ruling. I
understand it and I think it makes a lot of sense in some cases.
But I think it's also a little bit rough if you're talking about in a
case that we talked about last time, it happens from time to time
a general contractor comes in from out of state and he brings in
people that he's done business with up in Seminole County, and
he's going to do a restaurant or a chain store of some form, and
this poor guy has to -- in Lee County has to be state certified.
What it does to me is it promotes the usage of illegal
qualifiers. You know, you could probably at any time see in the
Lee County paper, newspaper, a qualifying -- qualified license
holders advertising their license for sale, because it is so
stringent, so rough, that somebody from out of town has to go
through a state certification to do one job in the county.
I don't want to promote license selling. And that's one of my
concerns with that. However, when there's a state registered
Page 33
July t9, 2000
license, isn't the state declaring jurisdictional control over that
license holder? The state board deals with it, just like we talked
about earlier on second qualifying entities, a registered license
holder -- or a state certified license holder must go before the
board to be -- state board to be approved for a second entity.
MR. NEALE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That doesn't apply to a local license
holder.
MS. PUIG: Right.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So I'm telling you, when they register
with the state, register with the state, that that turns
jurisdictional authority over to the state over their license.
MR. BALZANO: No.
MR. BARTOE: No.
MR. JOSLIN: Registered license is a county license
registered with the state.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: But we need --
MR. NEALE: No, this board still has enforcement authority
over state registered contractors.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Wait a minute, enforcement authority.
But I do believe that all we can do is recommend to the state
that they pull their license. MR. NEALE: No.
MR. BARTOE: No, sir. It's our license, our comp. card.
You're only registering with the state. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay.
MR. NEALE: Mr. Hayes, the only instance that that applies is
in the case of state certified contractors where this board has
limited jurisdictional authority. State registered contractors, this
board is the disciplinary board. The board still must make
recommendations to the state as to additional sanctions to be
imposed by the state board, but this board makes the primary
sanctions against the license. This is the board that pulls the
license and imposes the fines, primarily. The state can impose
additional penalties.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I was trying to make short work of this
issue, but I don't think that's going to happen, huh?
MS. WHITE: Well, how many of these cases have we seen in
the last year have been related to this?
MR. BALZANO: My opinion --
Page 34
July 19, 2000
MS. WHITE: Three or four?
MR. BALZANO: My opinion, as somebody I think mentioned
earlier, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. We've brought what we've
thought necessary cases here for you to hear.
MR. GONZALEZ: Most of those go through staff.
MS. WHITE: I only remember an issue of an exam score
what, two, maybe three times in a year? Is that right? So it's not
like it's absorbing all of our time here on the board.
MR. NEALE: The only reason is, as Mr. Zachary said, there
are contractors -- and I'm sure Judy runs into them -- contractors
who ask the question, you know, that will come in to staff or the
legal department and say, you know, but so and so county has
reciprocity, all I have to do is take my license there. Why do you
make me go through all these hoops?
Now, we can say -- I would recommend that some sort of
affirmative statement be made in the ordinance that Collier
County's reciprocity is if you show up here, you've got to make
an application. Because that's the current policy, right? If
somebody shows up here and wants to work, they've got to make
application, period.
As was suggested earlier, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Put
that in the ordinance. If you show up here and you want to work
and you haven't got a Collier County license, you've got to get a
Collier County license, period.
MS. WHITE: I do think Collier County is a little bit different
than some of the other counties. I won't mention names. I
mean, I just think being just a hot real estate market, I think we
have to be a little bit more careful than another county maybe
that's not experiencing the growth and the extreme jump in
property values and all that's going on here.
Because everybody in the world wants to come work here.
And I just think we -- because of that, we have a little more
responsibility than maybe some of the smaller counties who
aren't experiencing this explosion like we are.
MR. NEALE: If anybody agrees, I'd suggest to the board that
Mr. Zachary and I draft a provision that essentially embodies the
current process in the ordinance so that the ordinance doesn't
change anything that's currently being done. But at least if
somebody asks Judy or one of us the question, she can hold up
the ordinance and say here's our policy, folks. If you want to
Page 35
July 19, 2000
work in Collier County, you follow it.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That makes all the sense in the world to
me. Like you say, if it's not broke, don't fix it. But just put the
wording in the ordinance so that you do have legal authority to
impose the restrictions or application requirements on. That
works for me.
Anybody else got any other suggestion on that?
MR. JOSLIN: I'd just like to ask Judy one quick question. Of
all the counties that hold licenses that require licenses, would
you say in your professional opinion that Collier County is
probably one of the toughest to get a license?
MS. PUIG: Oh, yes.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
MS. PUIG: I mean, as far as getting the license, we're easier
on the applicants as far as the process. But we have more
trades than any other county, I believe, and more requirements.
MR. JOSLIN: That would make definite sense to me then
that being that that's the way that it is, this county is so
stringent in its licensing laws, that a one-on-one case per
individual or per case would be the way to do it, rather than to
try to reciprocate with anyone. Because we're not going to find
laws that are going to match, Pasco County or any other county.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: If I'm not mistaken, we've only got
about 18 months to grapple over this anyway, don't we? I
believe the state's gone and slammed the gavel down on single
tier licensing and it's all going to be a different world and out of
our control anyway.
MR. BALZANO: That's only --
MS. PUIG: Well, according to the state, when I talked to
them, I think the grandlathering clause for registering to certify
is possibly going to end in the year 2004. But that's not set in
stone, according to what they told me. So as of right now we
can sign up people to take a local exam to get the major trades.
They do not have to become certified. So as far as I know, there
is no single tier licensing happening right now.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: But in a couple of years they're going to
start looking at that and --
MS. PUIG.' They're not sure. I don't think they know.
MR. NEALE: There's nothing that came through the
legislature this session.
Page 36
July t9, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I knew that, but I do know there's
some heavy duty workshops all over the state. I keep getting
requests to participate on them. They're trying to do the single
tier licensing when they do the state code enforcement on us all
at the same time.
And you're right, there's going to be some heavy duty work
being done on the state level, because they don't have near the
tiers of licenses that we do. And all of a sudden we're going to
be boom, over to the state level, and half of our licenses will go
out the window? That's not going to work either.
MR. BALZANO: We're only losing about seven or eight
categories. If you look in 489, there's only a handful of
categories that the state says requires a license, and that's your
major trades. If you read in 489, I think Mr. Neale will tell you,
they don't even acknowledge that a tile or marble contractor is a
contractor. I don't even think they acknowledge a painter. So
the only thing you're going to lose are your building contractors
and your mechanical.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Anyway.
Okay, well, any other thoughts about it from the board?
I would suggest then that they go back to the drawing board
and try to put down in informal writing what our policy and
procedure is today, and I think we'd probably endorse that here.
MR. NEALE: We can do that.
One other point, just as a quick one that I know everyone -- I
believe everyone will bless is we have a paragraph in the
ordinance referring to a financially responsible officer. After all
the agony we went through with financially responsible officer,
Mr. Zachary and I, I think, have come to the conclusion that we
suggest that that paragraph just be removed from our ordinance
so that nobody can even talk about it anymore.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's not a bad idea. If we can't fool
with it on any level.
However, I'm still going to say, regarding that same issue, if
we have a local license holder and they're not -- a local license
holder and they're not registered, don't we need to look at the
second qualifter, or -- as the financial responsible officer in that
particular case?
MR. NEALE: As far as I know of, there's no statutory
requirement that we do.
Page 37
July t9, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Should we? I mean, if we've got a --
correct me if I'm wrong, a drywaller doesn't have to be
registered, okay? And he wants to qualify second entity and he
wants to deny financial responsibility there, at this point, without
anything in our ordinance, we can't act on that.
MR. NEALE: All we would say to them is that you can't do it.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay.
MR. NEALE: That's -- I think if the -- the board probably
remembers the many months of agony we went through trying to
figure out how to administer and set up the whole process for
financially responsible officers. And I think from my point of
view, at least, better to -- better for -- probably easier for staff to
be able to say we don't do that here than to have to get them to
put up bonds and net worth requirements and letters of credit
and lines of credit and all kind -- bank statements and everything
else. I don't know whether staff wants to get into all of that.
And making sure that the bond is renewed every year and all
these things.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Nonnenmacher?
MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes, I think one of the issues that
we should keep in mind, we don't have to discuss it today, is the
handyman. We brought it up once with Mr. Neale and Mr. Palmer,
whether we want to have an exemption or a license for it.
But I think this county is -- Mrs. White said has grown so fast
that the people of Collier County can just -- they just can't get
anyone to repair a leaky faucet, they can't get anyone to change
a light bulb, a light switch, put up a fan, build a little closet in a
house, because the licensed contractor just doesn't have the
time to do it. I think we really should consider the handyman and
whether we want to license a handyman or have a handyman
exemption. I believe the state has an exemption as far as
handymen are concerned. Up to a certain value, you don't need
a license to do the work.
And naturally, we wouldn't include the major trades.
Although right now our chief electrical inspector would tell you
that anything under $200, you don't even need a permit to do. I
think his main concern is changing wiring, not as much as
changing fans or changing receptacles and things like that.
Like I said, we don't need to discuss this today, but I think
before our ordinance is amended, we should have something or
Page 38
July 19, 2000
decide something as to what we're going to do about a
handyman.
MS. WHITE: How much can a handyman make before he
needs the license?
MR. NONNENMACHER: I don't know what the requirements
are. I believe it was $2,500; am I correct?
MR. NEALE: The state right now is $1,000.
MS. WHITE: $1,000 --
MS. PAHL: Perlob.
MS. WHITE: -- perlob? So, I mean, he could make 100 grand
a year, if he worked real hard, and it wouldn't make any
difference. He wouldn't need a -- right?
MR. NEALE: Only would need a --
MR. BALZANO: Ten $1,000 contracts.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Isn't the state grappling with the
handyman issue as we speak? Seems like I heard somebody --
the ASCF has a lobbyist watch dog up there, and I believe I saw
something come down on legislative alert that they are in fact
listening to hearings regarding a license over handyman. So I do
know that there's something going on on the state level. I don't
know exactly --
MR. NONNENMACHER: Well, after discussing it with Tom
and Paul, we would prefer to see some type of license for it. So
in case the citizens do get hurt, we have some kind of control.
Although, like I said before, I believe the state is an exemption,
where you don't need any license if it's under a certain dollar
value. But I think that needs --
MS. WHITE: In Collier County you do not need a license to
be a handyman; is that correct?
MR. BALZANO: You can't be one.
MR. NONNENMACHER: You can't be one. You're unlicensed
if you're a handyman.
MS. WHITE: Oh, you do have to have a license.
MR. NONNENMACHER: You have to have a carpenter's
license, an electrician's license, whatever--
MS. WHITE: Oh, for each --
MR. NONNENMACHER: -- particular trade you're doing --
MS. WHITE: -- each little trade that you are doing. So they're
-- oh, my goodness.
MR. NONNENMACHER'. Yeah, there's no such thing as a
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July 19, 2000
handyman in Collier County. He's an unlicensed -- MS. WHITE: We need handymen in this county.
MR. NONNENMACHER.' Staff agrees with you. That's why
we're bringing it up. It's just impossible for people to get any
work done with licensed general contractors and licensed
carpenters and --
MR. NEALE: But if the job is less than $1,000, they don't
need any license at all.
MS. WHITE: So a handyman does not need a license. If he
comes in and repairs --
MR. BALZANO: That's by state law.
MS. WHITE: -- certain things --
MR. NEALE: Yeah, but we can't preempt state law.
MS. WHITE: But what about county law?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: No, that's not totally true, Mr. Neale,
across the board either. Because as we just heard earlier, $200
and less for electrical. So if it's $700 worth of electrical work,
it's got to have a permit. You can't get a permit without any kind
of license.
MR. NEALE: But it's any work or operation of casual, minor
or inconsequential nature in which the aggregate contract price
for labor, materials and other items is less than $1,000.
So, you know, painting under 1,000, hanging a door, fixing a
window, those all could be done without any license.
And particularly, there's an opinion of the Attorney General
that was researched wherein the states -- the Florida Attorney
General very specifically said that the statutory exemption in
Florida statutes cannot be restricted by a county ordinance. If
there's an exemption in Florida statutes where they specifically
exempt a class of contractor, we can't come in and say well, we
don't exempt that person. That's just not permitted under the
law, at least according to the opinion that was researched.
So if they're doing work under 1,000 bucks casual, minor or
inconsequential, which I would imagine means not plumbing, not
electric, you know, slapping paint on somebody's wall or doing
something like that, which is fairly casual and minor and
inconsequential, all they need, according to what my research
has shown, is an oc. license. You know, they can --
MR. SCHOENFUSS: Well, the idea of putting a dollar amount
on it, whether it's $1,000 or $200, is not a good way to go at it.
Page 40
July 19, 2000
Because somebody can do $900 worth of sloppy painting and
there's no safety issue involved. But if someone can come in and
put in a $25 receptacle and create a very, very dangerous
condition -- in the electrical area we're constantly finding
receptacles and light switches and things that have been -- and
receptacles on docks outside that are actually life threatening
that have been put in by someone who thought he knew what he
was doing or tried to do it a cheap way and created a dangerous
condition.
MR. NEALE: Absent--
MR. SCHOENFUSS: So I don't say the dollar limit works.
MR. NEAI. E: Absent further research, I would say that I
think an argument could be made that electrical or plumbing,
anything that deals with a life safety issue, would not be
considered casual, minor or inconsequential. A light socket
being a perfect example. If you do it wrong, it's not casual,
minor or inconsequential. It can kill people.
MS. WHITE: So a handyman can't come in and replace a
dimmer switch.
MR. NEALE: Shouldn't come in and replace a dimmer
switch, shouldn't come in and do electrical or plumbing, you
know, shouldn't--
MS. WHITE: Can't hang a fan.
MS. PAHL: Can't hang a fan?
MS. PUIG: No, that's master electrician.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Not specifically.
MR. NEALE: Not specifically. I mean, that's one of those
that the argument could probably go either way. MS. PAHL: Install a smoke detector?
MR. NEALE: You know, hard wire, not hard wire, you know
what I mean? Those are the issues that it's purely a fact-based
issue. There's not a lot of direction in the statute. It just says
casual, minor or inconsequential.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, you were wanting to make a
comment a minute ago?
MR. BARTOE: I was going to say, Lee County has a license
they call alteration and repair, nonstructural that they've had
since September of 1977. And the scope of this license is
nonstructural renovation to residential property. And to me that
would be a handyman.
Page 41
July t9, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That would be anything, though.
Electrical, plumbing, roofing.
MS. PAHL: Yeah, nonstructural, sure.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So that means that they could install
fans, do switches --
MR. GONZALEZ: Stucco work.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- stucco work, you name it.
MR. NONNENMACHER: What are the requirements to get
that license?
MR. BARTOE: It doesn't say in here.
MS. WHITE: Very interesting. Maybe we should take a look
at this. On the other hand, I don't want to create a problem for
people who need five items fixed in their house and they have to
bring in five different companies to do it.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah, but if we were to try to put
together some form of handyman license requirements that are
way less than a general contractor's requirements, but not just
walking in there and getting a piece of paper, it would help some.
You know, if they were to produce some kind of a factual
affidavit on experience in a construction industry, something of
this nature, I mean, we have the right to do that.
MR. NONNENMACHER: Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I
believe Mr. Neale just said you didn't have the right to do that,
because it's in state statute, anything under $1,000, we cannot --
MR. NEALE: It's exempt.
MR. NONNENMACHER: It's exempt. So we cannot force him
to get some kind of a license like Lee County. Maybe Lee
County's license is unconstitutional.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, like I say, the state I know is
grappling with this issue right now. So it may be that we can
find some information out there and what their perspective is
and discuss it further.
What I'm going to suggest too to everybody on the board
today is that you drag your ordinance out, your current ordinance
that we are enforcing now, and review it a little bit for the next
meeting. And if you've got any questions or thoughts on some of
those issues, number one, it won't hurt to review the thing.
Number two, if you do, you can just put little asterisks beside it
or something when we come to this meeting next month. You
can bring up that issue for discussion on the board.
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July 19, 2000
And it may be that we need to allow some time on next
month's meeting to do a decent workshop with it. If we're lucky
enough to workshop it and approve it all in one meeting, it will be
a miracle. But nonetheless, that I have seen it happen. We've
had some good workshops in the past. We've been able to --
we've had to have workshops that were additional to this
monthly meeting as well, because of the intensity of some of the
issues. Back a few years ago, we had some head scratching
over landscapers, I believe. And that was a real tough issue.
MR. NEALE: Waterfalls.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Waterfalls, exactly.
MS. PAHL: We had a handyman issue before this board last
summer. Some lady and her sprinkler system, she lived down in
Old Naples. And it went on and on and on. I don't even
remember what the problem was, but I remember he was a
handyman.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: No question in my mind that there
needs to be -- in spite of what the state says, I think that we still
owe some protection to our local people. True, the side of the
issue is that most of your license holders in the county are way
too busy to go piddling around with hanging a fan. By the same
token, to say that Joe off the street at the bar, local bar, can
come over and hang your fan -- MS. PAHL: For a beer.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- is just a little pushing it as well. For a
beer, exactly.
So it is definitely something that I think if we're going to act
in the best interest of the citizens of Collier County, we need to
put something there.
MR. NEALE: We can -- Mr. Zachary and I can see if we can
find out what the state means by casual, minor or
inconsequential. I think we can see what that --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, any other discussion on the
workshop? Just be prepared -- go over the ordinance this month
and be prepared next month to --
MR. NEALE: I think Mr. Zachary might have some notes on a
couple of other things we talked about. Because I unfortunately
forgot my notes.
MR. ZACHARY: I think we took care of -- one thing that we
wanted to look at was the revision of the application to qualify
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July 19, 2000
second entity. I think we took care of that. We don't really need
to go to like a state application, because the way it's done now,
we decided that it's fine.
MR. NEALE: Although just as a -- one thing we had
discussed though is does the board want to implement the state
type of application for a second entity? Because the board all
has a copy of the state application.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: You know, if we didn't have the state
doing it as well, I would suggest that. But I think that it -- for us
to do that is redundancy.
MR. NEALE: The only reason I suggest that is an awful lot of
the questions this board asks are addressed in the application.
And since the person is going to have to be filling this application
out anyhow for the state --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that's true too.
MR. NEALE: If we used it for both state registered and for
local specialties, it would get Judy a lot more information to deal
with and work on, and it would give this board an answer to most
of its questions if we just adopted a modified version of this.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: What do you think, Judy? I don't want
you to have to double or triple your workload. Since we're only
an endorsement body as it is anyway.
MR. NEALE: Well, except on non-state registered, we're the
final board.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, now, that's true. And from that
perspective, I definitely would like to--
MR. NEALE: And it wouldn't make any sense to have two
applications. So that's why I'm suggesting if we adopt this one
as being the standard for Collier County, then all of them look the
same and we get the same information on both.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Since it may happen down the road
anyway.
MR. NEALE: And it certainly makes sure that the questions
that this board typically asks is why do you want to maintain
your license while qualifying this business, has the entity been
previously qualified, et cetera, those questions are in writing and
in front of this board prior to them coming -- prior to you coming
into this meeting.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think you could even go as far, if you
wanted to adopt this by reference in the ordinance, you could
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July 19, 2000
probably eliminate two or three pages of text in the ordinance.
MR. NEALE: Either that or -- but I just suggest that this
probably allows the board to have a lot more information in their
hands when the packet arrives in their office, as opposed to --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Things like requiring them to be net
worth of $20,000 if they're a building contractor. Net worth of
$10,000 if they're one of the special --
MR. NEALE: Those are requirements that they're going to
have to meet for the state anyhow.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's what I'm getting at.
MS. PUIG: So are we going to require that locally?
MR. NEALE: The state's going to when they get there.
MS. PUIG: Yeah, let the state do it.
MR. NEALE: Well, but we still have to -- I think they're going
to have to fill this application out anyhow for the state, and it's
my suggestion that --
MS. PUIG: I think we should modify it a little bit. The state
statutes don't meet our standards. And some of this stuff in
here, we probably don't need.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, it's going to need to be modified, but I'm
just suggesting that the basic --
MS. PUIG: Some of the questions, we can add it to our
application?
MR. NEALE: Yeah. And some the things, I would suggest
that we get together with staff and come up with an amended
version of this to be adopted, but something similar in concept to
this.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Zachary, anything else?
MR. ZACHARY: No.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, in regard to the workshop,
anybody got any other discussion?
MR. NEALE: The only other issue that I would suggest to the
board that it look at is contractor categories. Every time this
ordinance has been amended in the past, there have been
modifications, changes, amendments, additions, deletions to all
of the contractor categories, because we have a whole lot of
them. And I would just request that the board look at all the
contractors and make sure that they still make sense.
Because if the board remembers the last time, there were
some things added to some of them; the EIFS kind of coatings,
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July t9, 2000
and, you know, the No. 39 exterior covering by artificial stucco
system was added last time. The issue of paver contractors,
paving -- people who put down pavers, for lack of a better term,
that group of contractors I don't think ever got fully addressed in
the last ordinance amendment, so that's something the board
may want to look at.
Any new building systems or construction systems that
anybody on the board knows of that should be looked at,
addressed and discussed, I'd appreciate it if the board brought
those forward, too. Because you folks know a lot better than we
do of --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: We've got our homework --
MR. NEALE: -- what's going on in the business. I mean, if
there's a new kind of sanitization system for pools and spas that
has a different technology, maybe there should be a requirement
that a person demonstrate ability to use it. You know, if there's
new building -- this steel construction system that came up
today, do we want every contractor that's -- just because they've
got a license to be able to build steel buildings, or should they be
certified. You know, just from going to model houses, there's all
kinds of new building systems out there.
And, you know, whether they're technically -- whether a
person that just has a regular license is just technically
competent to do them or no, that's a question that this board has
to address.
Aside from that, I don't have anything else.
MR. ZACHARY: I did see one more thing on that list.
With regard to the second entity, I think we talked about
having a list of those that can apply. That's why I think we
figured that out that the state certified we don't mess with --
MR. NEALE: Right.
MR. ZACHARY: -- the registered and local specialties that
apply to us. But I think that's something that we wanted to do is
just list them.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Exactly.
MR. NEALE: And the other thing that we had discussed -- I
think we discussed it in the meeting with Judy a while ago, but
there's a list that's handed out by the occupational license
people that says if you do any of these 57 things, you've got to go
get a license. And having read the list myself and even having
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July 19, 2000
been involved with this board for a while, I don't understand that
list.
And I would suggest that this board -- Judy, maybe you can
grab a copy of it; I think I've got a copy in my file -- that maybe
this board can look at and clarify it for the oc. license people so
that when they hand this thing out, people know better what's
licensable and what's not. Because I know from my point of
view, when I looked at it, I was so confused, I didn't know what
was going on.
MS. PUIG: Well, basically they'll come over to our desk with
that form and then we'll hand them our form, which breaks down
all the trades, years of experience, length of exam and how much
your license costs a year. And we make copies constantly and
hand this out to everybody that comes to our desk that wants to
be a handyman. Because we tell them they can't do anything
unless they're licensed in these trades.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Without handing out too much work, is
there any way that I could ask you to have copies of this in our
packet for next month? So that each --
MS. PUIG: This form?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes, ma'am.
MS. PUIG: Sure, no problem.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So that each one of the board members
know exactly what our jurisdictions are.
And I'm also going to ask the board to not only review the
ordinance but bring it with you next week so that we've got an
idea of what we're dealing with.
We are in charge of enforcing that ordinance. And many,
many times we're not sure what's in that ordinance. And I'd just
as soon we studied up a little bit on it. And I know most of us
are too busy doing other things sometimes so it's very difficult,
and the ordinance is a pain in the butt to read. But if we're going
to act intelligently on some of those ordinance restrictions and
requirements, we need to know what the ordinance says.
MR. BARTOE: And if anybody needs another copy, just call
the office and we'll be sure to get it to you.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, the only confusion I have is that
we sometimes would like to be able to read the statute itself,
and the codified version is what the attorneys read. The codified
version starts to complicate our life a little bit. It's a little bit
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July 19, 2000
more complicated for us to read and implement. But the codified
version is one that the attorneys seem to be brushed up and
fancy and know exactly where to go, so they'll be calling out
Section 22-21,and we're just sitting here going 105- what?
MR. NEALE: Everybody on the board has a copy of the
codified ordinance.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: We do have a copy, I believe. I
remember you handing it out to us.
MR. NEALE: If everybody needs another one, we can always
make another one. But everybody on the board does have a copy
of the codified ordinance, so --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, that's good. We'll work on that
some more next month.
Okay, any other old business?
How about public hearings?
Reports? Any reports, Mr. Bartoe?
MR. BARTOE: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other discussion that we need to
beat up or take time with?
Our next meeting is August the 16th, at which time I guess
we will have a formal workshop on the licensing code.
Anybody know they're not going to make it at this point?
MS. PAHL: It's a little bit iffy. I may or may not.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, I need a motion for adjournment.
MR. LAIRD: So moved, Mr. Chairman.
MR. GONZALEZ: And I second.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: All in favor?
(Unanimous vote of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Let's quit.
There being no further business for the good of the County,
the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 10:40 a.m.
CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
GARY HAYES, CHAIRMAN
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July '19, 2000
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT
REPORTING SERVICE, INC., BY CHERIE' R. LEONE, RPR
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