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BCC Minutes 08/08/1991 S1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 COLLIER COUNTY BOARD OF CO~ISSIONERS IN THE MATTER OF: LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE WORKSHOP (Part One of Two Sessions) Heard by the Board of County Commissioners, commencing at 9:00 a.m., Thursday, August 8, 1991, in the Third Floor Board Room, Building F, Collier County Government Center 3301 East Tamiami Trail, Naples, Florida 33962, as reported by Connie S. Potts, Deputy Official Court Reporter. BOARD ~EMBERS: Chairman Ann Goodnight Vice-Chairman Michael J. Volpe Commissioner Max A. Hasse Commissioner Burt L. Saunders Commissioner Richard S. Shanahan OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES STAFF: Neil Dorrill, County Manager William Merrill, Esquire, Consultant Frank Brutt, Community Development Services Administrator Tom Olliff, Assistant to County ~!anager John Madajewski, Project Review Services Manager Barbara Cacchione, Chief Planner, Growth Planning Department SPEAKERS: Mark Morton Gary Butler Robert Apgar, Esquire Dwight Richardson Gerard McNeil Mary Morgan, Supervisor of Elections Joe Boggs OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 2 order. PROCEEDINGS CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I'll call the workshop to MR. BRUTT: Madam Chairman, members of the County Commission. For the record, Frank Brutt, Community Development Services Administor. First of all, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the staff, county attorney, Bill Merrill, our consultant, for the extraordinary efforts that they have made relative to bringing this Unified Land Development draft plan to you this morning. The Planning Commission spent a considerable amount of time on Monday and also on yesterday going through the entire code. Some seven and a half or eight hours were spent with the Planning Commission during their deliberations on it. One housekeeping item I would like to bring to your attention is that we request that the Board of County Commissioners today take informal action relative to setting your evening public hearing dates. Our suggestions -- and these have been discussed previously in general terms during some of our other OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 meetings -- of establishing October 16th and October 30th, at 6:30 p.m., as your public hearing dates. If those dates are satisfactory with you, I will draft an executive summary for your formal consideration for the following county commission meeting. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: There was some mention made last evening about the hour of commencement of some of these meetings, when we begin at six thirty. that we were going to get more people here. any more people here, and it was twelve o'clock by the time we got out of here. MR. BRUTT: We would be satisfied to start at any convenient hour that satisfies the State law. The idea was We didn't get CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I'm waiting on my calendar. CO~.~ISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Brutt, when were these originally scheduled for, these meetings? MR. BRUTT: When we had our discussions with you back prior to the month of June, we had discussed those particular evenings as the tentative public hearing dates October 16 and October 30, as your public hearing dates. I have a -- I have a flier here of June 4th when it was discussed at a previous meeting while we were looking OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 at the total schedule, but we didn't want to firm up the actual dates until you got into your workshop today. CHAIRMA~ GOODNIGHT: October the 16th? MR. BRUTT: October the 16th, which is a Wednesday evening, and October the 30th, which is also a Wednesday evening, at any desired time to start. Five o'clock, six? What is your pleasure? COmmISSIONER HASSE: We also have a meeting that's the 30th of October, in the morning. MR. BRUTT: Yes, sir. that came up after this. COS~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: I know you have a meeting Frank, are there any other dates, alternate dates, that we should consider, or are those the dates that really we need to lock into? MR. BRUTT: I believe we need to lock into within that time period, but we definitely need them that week because what we're looking at is the October 30th, the date I mentioned, November 8th is a legal deadline for Board adoption. So you need some time from your second meeting to any time that we have to do any paperwork, et cetera. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 5 COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: October. MR. BRUTT: Yes, sir. COS~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: around it. MR. RRUTT: So they've got to be held in There is just no other way That's correct. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: either date. CO~.IISSIONER HASSE: I don't have a problem with I think we ought to put something on the second because that would mean -- otherwise, it means we're going to have a Wednesday night off. CO~4ISSIONER HASSE: God forbid that we would do that. We'll find something. COb~ISSIOMER HASSE: COM%~ISSIONER VOLPE: to be -- He will. So the 16th and the 30th seem MR. BRUTT: The 16th and the 30th of October. If that's satisfactory, satisfactory with the consultant, I'll prepare an executive summary for your formal action at the following Board meeting. CHAIRMA~ GOODNIGHT: What time? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 CO~4ISSIONER HASSE: Six thirty. MR. BRUTT: You were mentioning an earlier hour. The earlier, the better for us. COmmISSIONER VOLPE: My fellow commissioners have persuaded me that we might want to begin a bit earlier. COS~ISSIONER HASSE: They persuaded you or you persuaded us? CO~ISSIONER VOLPE: I think you persuaded me. COS~ISSIONER HASSE: No. No. No. MR. BRUTT: You set the time. Five oh five? CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Five oh five satisfactory? Okay. MR. BRUTT: Five oh five is satisfactory? Thank you. COMMISSIONER HASSE: I don't care if it's seven in the morning. Five oh five. Both of those days? MR. BRUTT: Yes. MR. OLLIFF: Include a policy revision on that executive summary when we send it through, too. CO~4ISS'[ONER VOLPE: We didn't write that policy OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 down, did we, anyplace? MR. BRUTT: We have a staff request -- as you get into your presentation schedule, we have a staff request to do the Article Three development requirements as the first part. And at this time, I would like to turn it over to Bill Merrill, your consultant for the project, to start the presentation. COmmISSIONER VOLPE: Before you do that, Mr. Brutt, what were you -- Item B here. Did we discuss about an additional workshop should be scheduled for the week of August 12th? MR. BRUTT: Well, I think that depends upon the -- your accomplishments of today whether you see that there is a need or not. C05~ISSIONER VOLPE: Oh, I see. MR. BRUTT: If you do not need one, then of course, it doesn't. If you do need one, that's a discussion item as you conclude your deliberations today. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Okay. MR. BRUTT: Thank you, Commissioners. MR. MERRILL: Good morning, Commissioners. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courth,ouse, Naples, Florida 33962 :. For the record, my name is Bill Merrill, and I'm a consultant on the Land Development Code project. I would like to recognize Martha Howell, who is sitting next to me. She is one of your county attorneys, and she has been instrumental in getting this code together in short time, and also Mark Morton over with the Land Development Code Task Force. He has also given us a lot of assistance. They have had approximately seventy meetings -- is that correct, Mark? -- to go through a lot of substance and the details on the code. So, again, I appreciate both of their inputs. What I would like to do is cover the scope and a very brief overview of the contents and organization of the code, and then we'll go right into the direct discussion with John Madajewski regarding Article Three, and then Barb Cacchione regarding Article Two, the two key components of the Land Development Code. With regard to the scope of our contract, we were asked to primarily consolidate a number of your land development regulation ordinances and resolutions into a Unified Land Development Code under Chapter 163, the Growth Management Act of the State of Florida. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 Under that scope, we were asked to try to streamline where possible some of the development review procedures and to identify some problematic areas with regard to standards or criteria. Specifically, we were asked to pay particular attention to the subdivision regulations and work with John Madajewski and his staff in streamlining that and reorganizing it. It was a 1963, I believe, code or 1967 code that was adopted from Palm Beach County, and you took the words Palm Beach County and replaced it with Collier, and then it was added on to a number of times over the years. So it really needed quite a bit of work, and John was very good in organizing that. In going through this process, the typical manner that we use or the format that we used to come up with the Land Development Code that you see before us is we needed to take all of these different regulations, and we pulled them apart. We break them down into three basic components. The procedure section, the submission requirement section, and the standards and criteria section. mmmm~- IIImmllm OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 10 In that way we are able to identify specifically where the problems are in procedures and where they are in criteria and standards, and so on. So that's what we did, and then after we pulled it all apart, we have to put it back together again. And so, again, that's what we did with regard to Article Three and Article Two. Primarily that's where the substantive criteria is, and I will go through that format with you shortly. With regard to the contents of the Land Development Code, we're looking at approximately four hundred and forty-five pages, and it seems like a huge, tremendously thick document. However, we have to keep in mind that this contains over thirty ordinances, separate ordinances of Collier County. I wish I had it before me here. It's back at my office. It takes up an entire file drawer just of your existing ordinances. So it's probably about two and a half to three feet wide of documentation that has gone into this code. It also includes an incorporation by reference of twenty-one other ordinances. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 11 So those ordinances are not actually included in the document, but they are incorporated by reference. We made a decision not to include such items as the building code. Instead, we referenced those because those do change on a periodic basis, based on Southern Standard Building Code and other administrative decisions by your staff. In addition, out of these thirty ordinances that are included and the twenty-one referenced, the ordinance contains actually eighteen substantive areas. One substantive area being subdivision, for example. Another one being site development. Another one being zoning. So we have eighteen different substantive areas contained in the ordinance, Land Development Code. The format for the Land Development Code is comprised of six articles. We have broken the code into six articles, the first one being general provisions, which includes everything from a vested rights provision, to non-conformities, to repealer clauses and effective dates and so on. Article Two deals with zoning. Article Three deals with development requirements, which include subdivision, site development, your OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 12 environmental regulations, and so forth. Article Four is an incorporation by reference of your impact fees. And I want to make it clear that we are not dealing with impact fees in these hearings, that they are merely incorporated by reference. The primary reason for us doing that is that your impact fees are currently being worked on by another consulting group and staff, and that those were not ready to be put in at this time and they will at a future date be incorporated into the space that is identified as Article Four. Article Five identifies the decision-making bodies, whether it's staff's or whether it's the Commission's. And then Article Six are the definitions. And Article Six is the portion of the document that needs the primary work that is still outstanding by both the staff and the various input groups. With regard to Article Three, in particular -- and that is the development requirements. Article Three is organized into I believe it's fourteen different sections which include thirteen different substantive areas. Each section or -- excuse me. Each division is broken down, and one division would contain subdivision, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 13 one division would include site development. Each division is broken down into a general .provision section which comes first, a procedures and submission requirement section, which comes second, and under that section it's broken down into review procedures and submission requirements. And then the third section includes the development standards. Each one of those divisions follows that format. So it's trying to unifying the format that we are using in Collier County, to simplify it so that people can get directly into the procedures, so that they can basically have a checklist for the submission requirements and a checklist for the development standards. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: MR. MERRILL: Yes. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Merrill. We adopted an ordinance last evening -- I think we did -- the historical and archiological ordinance which is a land development regulation. Where would that fit in this code? MR. MERRILL: I believe -- Martha and I were talking about that. We talked about Article Three. · OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 14 It would be a new division in Article Three, I believe. COb~ESSIONER VOLPE: Okay. MR. MERRILL: I'm not familiar with that ordinance, but I believe it's some additional development requirements and it allows you to designate landmarks within the community. I'm generally familiar with landmark ordinances, but I believe that we talked about including that into Article Three as Division 3.15 or sixteen. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: At some point in this process, is someone going to bring all of those together and show us where we have adopted those land development regulations? MR. MERRILL: Yes. C05~ISSIONER VOLPE: And put it in here so we can see it complete. MR. MERRILL: aren't, what we'll do is we'll put a title in there to show where it will go. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Okay. MR. MERRILL: It will also allow -- the format also Yes. I believe that we are; and if we t:~':. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS ~::'.~: ~' Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida IIIIIIIE Z ....--' 33962 15 allows you to add on. If you come up with some new development regulations you want to add, it will allow you to add those at the end of Article Three, using the same format that we have done for the other divisions and it doesn't ruin the integrity of the overall document. And in addition -- yeah. The adequate public -- Martha reminded me. The adequate public utility ordinance will also be included into Article Three as a new division as well. So you should keep that in mind, but we won't be making any substantive changes in that regard unless there is something recommended by staff. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: affirmative.) MR. MERRILL: (Nodded head in the With regard to -- again, with regard to the document, ther heart of this document is Article Two which is zoning and Article Three, which is the development requirements, and of course the definitions. The definitions, though, as we envision, will continue to be worked on and refined over the next two weeks to maybe a month before your next commission public OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 16 hearing, and we hope to have those finalized and ready for public hearing format at that -- at your next hearing, the Planning Commission Public Hearing. Without further ado, what I would like to do is -- I guess we're going to take this out of order. John Madajewski is going to go through some of the substantive provisions with regard to Article Three. What we have done is~ The green document that's before you represents those items that we were able to agree upon between myself and staff and the development task force prior to the first Planning Commission Public Workshop. Since that time, there were a number of other areas that we were able to agree upon, and those are represented by a number of other documents, the most recent of which are the white documents that you received today, I believe. Barb, you were going to -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: This one sheet? MR. MERRILL: Well, there are approximately, I believe -- (Whereupon an off-the-record discussion was had.) OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier Count,; Courthouse, ~aD]m~. 17 MR. MERRILL: John and Barb will go into this, but I believe with regard to Article One, there is only one area of disagreement, and that deals with exemptions. With regard to Article Two, there are only a -- there is one area of disagreement and several areas of further discussion. And then with regard to Article Three in subdivision, there are fourteen areas of disagreement; and I believe with regard to the environmental regulations, there's approximately -- there's none. Okay. There are none. Okay. There are no areas of disagreement. So in total, we have about -- what, about sixteen, I believe -- sixteen areas of disagreement for this entire code at this time. And, again, we have to remember that we haven't gotten through all of the definitional issues at this point. But in any event, I think we have made a lot of progress on this, and I believe that most of our discussion will be with regard to the areas of disagreement and explaining those to you, but that certainly does not preclude you as a Board from delving OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 18 into any of the other portions of the document. It is a large document, and that I have reviewed a significant portion of it for consistency with the Growth Management Plan. I have yet to finish that on some of the newer portions, but we will be doing that before your public hearing. Thank you. " John. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: John, before you start, there has been -- Commissioner Volpe has a question about how long that we were going to work today. My feelings on the thing was that we were going to work until we completed this unless it was -- ended up to be quite lengthy. I felt like that maybe we could get through by noon or maybe a little after noon. If that's not the case, then we have two options. We can either come back this afternoon or either we can go to that other meeting, other workshop meeting, that is planned for -- COb~ISSIONER VOLPE: I just didn't know whether we had an adjourn time. I didn't know whether the plan was five o'clock or whether it was at noon. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 19 So ~ CO55qISSIONER SHANAHAN: I have to leave at noon. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: You have to leave at noon. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: So if we don't finish up by noon today, then we'll go to that other date that Frank was telling us about. COmmISSIONER SAUNDERS: COMMISSIONER HASSE: COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: What is that other date? What is the date? The 12th. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: The 12th. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Of? COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: August. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Of August. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Madajewski, Mr. Merrill, just one other question. Didn't we have another consultant on the subdivision regulations? MR. MADAJEWSKI: I'll get into that. MR. MERRILL~ On one portion of it. COM~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: I have to leave at noon, and the 12th is fine with me if we need to finish up on the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 20 12th. C05~IISSIONER HASSE~ Immokalee that day. COM~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: thirty. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Yeah. We've got our meeting in That night, yeah. Six The 12th is Monday? Okay. John. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Good morning, Commissioners. For the record, John Madajewski, Project Review Services Manager. We are -- we'll try to move through this as quickly as possible, but we do have some areas that are probably going to raise a lot of questions and discussion. As Bill has said, Division Three is all of the substantive development regulations. There are thirteen divisions that start with subdivision and end up with various environmental sections dealing with sea turtles, vehicles on the beach, public construction setback, et cetera. C05~ISSIONER HASSE: now? You're going on what color page MR. MADAJEWSKI: This would start on page 3-2. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 · - CS3 21 These are the green sheets. The pink and yellows, we'll get into as we go forward. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Is there a white as well? MR. ~DAJEWSKI: No. I -- while you're looking for that, you were provided -- Ms. Goodnight picked them both up. One is a stapled package that starts off with dealing with the summary of the subdivision regulations, and then a single sheet entitled Categories of Subdivision Conflict Issues. Those were presented to try and streamline this. The issue on the category of subdivision conflicts will be basically the agenda for Division 3.2, Subdivisions, and we have provided copies over on the side of room for anybody who would want one. The summaries were basically there just so that the commission could have a chance to look at what were the areas of substantive change from your current ordinances to what is proposed in the code. The biggest change, of course, will be in the subdivision regulations~ but it is not a complete rewrite. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 22 It is not new material. We have tried to better organize it into the procedures, process, and design standards. I think the major change that you will see as you look into that document is how we are proposing that preliminary subdivision plats, which are currently entitled subdivision master plans, will be handled, and the recommendation is to lean towards the national standards of having those reviewed by the Planning Commission only and not come to the Board. The Board would have the final plat as a consent agenda item with the ability to remove based on comments, et cetera, but we are looking towards the Planning Commission to handle all of the preliminary platting issues. In assisting in the platting issue, we have also added a term for minor subdivisions, which the code does not have today, which does become a problematic issue in areas like Golden Gate Estates and on some other minor areas that were subdivided. To address the basis of this document, there have been comments that this is a sole-source, one-person -- myself -- document, and I want to make it clear to the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 23 Board on the extent of the involvement of staff and the outside. Since we started working on this, particularly in subdivision in 1989, we have had direct involvement from the County Water Management Department, the Environmental Services Division, transportation, utilities. Of course the combined group of Development Services, the Community Development Services Division staff through Long-range Planning, the County Health Department, of course the County Attorney's Office, and some prior county employees who had direct involvement in starting some of the subdivision work in which to provide guidance to us early on. Back in 1989, we had a full mailing to the engineering and development community seeking response, comments, how can we do it better in subdivision. responses we got were incorporated into our work. Development Services Steering Committee, which has been a main tool of looking at development services, our operations, streamlining, making the process better, making it more coherent. And, of course, the ad hoc committee through our work over the last four months. The few The OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 24 So we think we have polled and involved as many people and agencies that would have direct affect on this document into it so that we bring to you what we feel is the best document possible. In doing that, we also looked at what would be our basis of creation of an authority for the development regs, and we have gone back to some of the main guidance provided by the state under Chapter 187, the state Comprehensive Planning statutes, Chapter 163, the Growth Management Act, and County's Growth Management Plan. Chapter 177, statutes as it relates to platting. Chapter 498 of the statutes as it relates to lands sales, the issue of platting building permits, and the state's draft code which the DCA, has had a consultant prepare the model land development regulations, that the State has proposed as a guideline to counties and municipalities on how they should formulate and format their codes. Using all of that, we have relied on some of the purpose and intent, some of the definitions, the scope of those acts, and our general administrative procedures here to come up with what we feel is the best unified set of development regulations that are going to be on the books. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 25 As I said, the summaries I provided to you give an overview in the areas of these thirteen divisions where we feel there have been major changes; and we would request that as you have some time to review those and as any specific comments come up, we'll deal with those probably during the public hearing. I didn't want to get into the soul of those today unless it became a conflict type issues. MR. MERRILL: John, if I can just interrupt just to be sure. Does everyone have the categories and subdivision conflict issues? That's what John is going to go through as his agenda. These are the areas where there are disagreements among staff and the committee or the consultant. So we're going to go through those one at a time and explain the positions of each side. MR. DORRILL: This may be petty, one and two. I don't know how you wanted to handle the public comment this morning. We have a number of representatives here from both the development and environmental oriented communities. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 26 You also have representatives here from the committee, as well. While this is a workshop, it might be good to have some feeling or base for what the disagreements are in the event that you wanted to direct us to make certain changes before you first of all, but I'll leave that up to the Board. COMMISSIONER HASSE~ Is that generally the way you want to work this workshop? MR. DORRILL: Not generally. But because of this particular situation, I didn't know whether or not you were going to encourage public comments here today or reserve those until your first of two public hearings. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I would like to resolve as many of the problems during the workshop process as we possibly can before we get into the public hearing. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: My only comment would be that we have had the opportunity to review all of those, but this really is the first opportunity for most of us to actually be made acquainted with the issues and the overview; and to get into the kind of debate that we may get into, I'm not sure how productive that may be. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 27 I mean, I would like to get it all out and then identify the areas, and then maybe at that second workshop then have that public input once we have acquainted ourselves with some of the issues. That's my thought. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Madam Chairman, I agree with you. I would like to have Mr. Madajewski go through each particular issue and when he's finished, I would like to have the public comment on that issue from the committee, from members of the public, anybody who wants to speak on it, so we can discuss it issue by issue and perhaps resolve these as we go along. There is not a whole lot of point in -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: And then if we can't resolve them, at least we'll all have the opportunity to sleep on them and to think about it and everything before there is a final decision to be made, and I certainly don't want to go to the first public hearing and there be some substantial problems out there without us at least having had the opportunity to weigh both sides of it without having to make the decision then and there. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 28 So we'll go through each one of the items and then we'll hear type of comment and then if there is some strong feelings on the Board, then we'll direct staff or whatever, and if there's not, then -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: That will be fine. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: John. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Thank you. To address Commissioner Volpe's question, I guess we'll just proceed through this document and take subdivision. That's probably going to be our longest discussion. The consultant, Robert Fralich, has provided a draft proposal to the county. That proposal was workshopped on July the 12th. As late as two days ago we conference called with Doctor Fralich's staff and his partner, and have presented the staff's feelings on how far we want to go with Doctor Fralich's proposal. We have discussed that with Mr. Morton and Mr. Butler, and there is a meeting set up for three o'clock next Monday afternoon in the County Attorney's Office with the legal community committee and any other representatives to go over that. It will basically deal OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 29 with the primary issue that has been a debate dealing with phased condominiums and what actually is legally a subdivision in Collier County. I can tell you that the staff has agreed not to go with the full recommendation of the consultant as to bringing in units and leasehold as platted required subdivisions, which will greatly reduce the impact and the conflict. We feel we have a very good handle on those things and do not need at this time to bring them under the umbrella of subdivisions. The main issue we will probably deal with is phased condominiums, which are s.~bdivision of land as a phased amount under Chapter 718. So we think we have a good basis to work from, to bring back to the Board a recommendation. If we can present that in some format before the public hearings, we would like to. If not, we will try and at least get to a point where we can either bring to the public hearing draft a unified and agreed plan between staff and committee or a typical side sheet issue like you have in the document today. We will work our best to bring you back a clean OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 30 document on that issue. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Are Mr. Fralich's -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: No, they are not. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: They're not in here? MR. MADAJEWSKI: No. We have not had the chance to incorporate them. That late on in the process, trying to do it, work it out, it just was humanly not time for Bill to put it in. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I find a little difficult to comprehend, since we were sold on the idea that this man was the best thing since sliced bread on these issues, and we agreed to spend an additional $20,000 to bring him into the loop, and now we're going to have a workshop and we don't have his comments here? MR. MADAJk~SKI: As I say, we just humanly did not have time to get it in. The committee did not want to -- in joint discussion with the committee, we felt that it would be unfair to put in a one-sided, biased issue at this point in time when we felt we had common ground to be able to work out the dispute. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 31 So that was a staff and committee decision to advise you of it but not put it in at this time. What I would suggest we will do is probably end up putting an issue paper together that can be directed to the Board members so that they can see where we are going and be able to formulate any comments on it. I did the best I could. Leaving from there, then, what I would like to do is get into the single white sheet on the Categories of Subdivision Conflict Issues, and I have tried to consolidate these together so that we are not talking about the same issue in three different places. We will bring them all together at one time. In doing that, the first three items on that list -- those are Sections 3.2.4.2 and .3 and 3.2.6.3.4 -- deal with the basic issue of the issuance of building permits prior to plat recordation. The committee in those sections has requested that the owner of the land be permitted to obtain building permits prior to recordation of plats prior to posting the bond, which would allow structures of any type within a subdivision to go up. Staff has objected to that. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 32 The pink sheets that you have for each of those areas are what staff feels -- as you see it on those sheets, as either struck through language, which would be deletion of staff material or underlined material which would be the addition of material by the committee -- that we are requesting that you go with. The green document which would require any plat to be recorded before the county would issue building permits. That process is currently in your 1976 regulations. The County Attorney's Office offered legal written opinion to me on February 24, 1989, regarding the issue of the current regulations, and the intent that building permits are not issued until all provisions of the subdivision code are met and they felt inclining that building codes meant plat recordation, posting of bond so that there are guarantees that the improvements will go forward and also provide the ability, if something should go wrong, for the county to be able to step in, if necessary, and at least clean up the property. The primary issue is that subdivision type improvements which are normally bonded are below grade or at the surface are the least detrimental from the visual OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 33 standpoint, whereas structures going up of course are visible when they become abandoned, uninhabited. We get into some of the basic purposes and intent of your subdivisions regulations which are not to have haphazard development. One of the purposes four on page 3.3 specifically states "To insure the citizen and taxpayers of Collier County will not have to bear the cost resulting from haphazard subdivision of land." So there is a very prime basis for not wanting structures above grade. I have not been able to find other counties within the State, some of the review that I have done of their regulations, that permit structures to go up prior to platting and recordation and bonding. We feel that is a basic consumer protection issue. It's not that a developer might be out there to defraud someone, but the potential for it and the requirement of county manpower, county tax dollars to follow growth around and make sure that the consumers of Collier County are not unfairly put upon or that the county is not made to increase its manpower costs to police the county on OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 34 issues where we have a very clear handle on controlling that until the developer has really agreed that he is ready to go and structures should legally go up. COb~ISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Madajewski, can the developer begin subterrainian construction before the recordation of plat? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yes, they may. That is in t~e original document and it is still in our document. That is a basic premise of subdivision, that on those issues he's basically at his own risk. The injury to the county, except for clearing of species and things, which we like to limit as much as possible until the time is ready, is probably the most damaging effect from something like that. Normally if something does go into the ground and then does not go forward and the county terminates the subdivision, it is under those terms that they do not proceed forward. Under the maintenance agreements, the county has the legal right to proclaim the sbudivision null and void. It's not on the record, not been platted, and if another developer wants to come in and then pick up, we OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 35 have a basis -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: But don't you have the security? Don't you have a hundred and ten percent security for the infrastructure? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Not under the option that is available. If the developer wishes to proceed with the infrastructure prior to posting his bond and recording the plat, he is allowed to do so; but then he's not allowed to obtain building permits because we're now looking at a project that may or may not go. There is no guarantee it will ever be finished. COb~ISSIONER VOLPE: If they posted the security, would your position be different about allowing them to have a building permit issued for a vertical structure? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Not from the standpoint of the recording of the plat. That also gets directly into Chapter 498 under Land Sales for Subdivision. In reviewing the statute, it's very clear Section 498.025, under exemptions from the Land Sales Act, the -- Subparagraph Two in there clearly indicates that projects that are proceeding, that they under the provisions would OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 ...... U/ 36 not have to apply for land sales if it's within a recorded subdivision. They habitually, through this, tied requirements for subdivision under 498.027, Application for Registration, Paragraph One, Subparagraph A-l: Recorded or proposed plat which meets the criteria require by applicable law or ordinance and showing the relation of the subdivided lands to existing streets, roads and off-site improvements. Period. If the plat is unrecorded, it shall be recorded prior to the issuance of an order of registration, which allows to actually market land. So the State, under its Land Sales Act, and we do not want to become the policing agent for the state's Land Sales Act, but it's a direct major issue. We feel tkat the easy way to police it is not allow the building permit to go forward so that we do not potentially have a subdivision that is really not a subdivision and property might be sold. So we feel there is a very good basis in the law, the county has done this since it adopted subdivision regulations in 1976, and we see no reason to change. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 37 COMMISSIONER HASSE: You mentioned clearing, but you also mentioned putting something in the ground. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Correct. COMMISSIONER HASSE: drainage system? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yes. Are you speaking of the We're speaking to the drainage, the roads, the water, the sewer. COS~ISSIONER HASSE: Without any permit. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Not without a permit, but without bonding of those improvements. Again, doing that, the developer is out there at his risk. He -- it's his money on the table. The county would see the least injury if a project like that would go under from the visual standpoint, which is, you know, I think a big esthetic concern in most communities. Unfinished buildings become, one, an eyesore, they become a potential for people to move into them and live You know, there are just a lot of in them illegally. areas. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. John, the consultant agrees with staff? MR. MERRILL: Yes, I do. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 38 CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT.. Okay. And, Mark, there is a problem with the committee on the agreement of this? MR. MORTOn,: Yes. issue. We can discuss our side of that CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Okay. MR. MORTON: Currently if you kind of follow through the process that a project for a development would go through, you get your PUD, unless it's in a straight subdivision; you get your subdivision master plan approval; and then you get structure plan approval for the infrastructure. The county will let you go forward with construction plan, major infrastructure in your development prior to recording the plat. Right now, they're saying, and it's going to come up in the next -- a little bit further into this and this kind of ties into this -- is that a site development plan, you couldn't start on infrastructure in a site development plan without recording the plat beforehand even though the site development plan construction is very similar to a subdivision master plan. They're both the infrastructure. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS 39 When you get ready to record the plat, typically the developers would like to push out, placing those bonds to a later date so that they can get as much of the infrastructure in ahead of time. Where this whole issue rubs up against that is when you're trying to put in the sinage in your project, which requires a building permit~ on a golf course, putting up a gatehouse, country club, amenity facilities, the things the buyer wants to come in and see as infrastructure is going, that you're for real and you're doing what you're saying you're going to do. This says that you can't go pull that building permit until the record the plat. So you would be recording the plat prior to your infrastructure being complete. Well, when you're going through the construction process, you find that you jog water lines around trees, you jog swales around trees, you do things that change easements, et cetera, on that plat. You might even change a property line at that point slightly, because you haven't recorded the plat and you aren't conveying property to anybody. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 40 Now that you've recorded the plat to make any of those minor changes, you're back amending your plat. So it gives you some flexibility through the process to continue until you get your construction plans done and see and then you can after the fact, you know, move the few lines that have had to be jogged, et cetera. The committee is not in disagreement that you should have the plat recorded prior to CO when a person is going to move in, and we have even gone further on this to say if you're building a structure that isn't on your property that you own, that's your structure, then yes, the plat should be recorded because you're going to convey property. But our language is basically saying if you're building a structure on your property, you're not conveying it to anybody, you shouldn't have to record the plat. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Theirs is a consumer protection issue, though. They're saying that's fine, but how are we going to monitor the fact that you won't sell that piece of property? Is your answer to that, you can't get a CO until it has been recorded and therefore that's the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS 41 safeguard that is in place and that addresses their concern? MR. MORTON: I would say so. Additionally, the recording of the bond is for the infrastructure. One point, staff will say, is there will be shell buildings sitting around Collier County that won't be finished. Well, they won't be finished if I record the plat, and all the recording the plat and bonding does is make me get the infrastructure done. At that point, the county still can't make me go finish the building. Though I will ask you how many projects do we have in Collier County, are we riddled with these vacant structures sitting around and, you know, infrastructure? How many bonds has Collier County executed to finish projects in the county? It's kind of a -- if you listen to the staff, it's like this cound happen, it may happen. MR. MADAJEWSKI: It has. MR. MORTOM: It really dramatically affects the develoment of your project in trying to market and sell it. You know, we're down to the end here. We've jumped OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 42 through all the hoops. We've spent all the money we can to get our PUD's and our SDP's, but here we are at the end in this type of a marketplace, essentially, and with the loan requirements, et cetera, we can't pull building permits for our signs or graphics or -- COb~IISSIONER VOLPE: When you say "we," who are you speaking for? MR. MORTON~ The development community in general. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: COS~ISSIONER HASSE: CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: MR. MORTON: Okay. CHAI~4AN GOODNIGHT: comment on what he said. Okay. It has happened, though. Wait right there, Mark. John, I would like for you to MR. MADAJEWSKI: Probably the first main comment would be that Mark is correct, you don't have these situations existing in Collier County because you have not allowed them to occur based on your current policy, and that's why staff is recommending you continue that policy. I think that's a very valid point. Also in the document, in response to that, in Section 3.2.6.4.9 -- I'll just give you the cite right OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 43 now; if we need to, we can go to the page -- we have put provisions in there which on a project that does go belly up, does not proceed forward, and there is a bond posted, that the Development Service Director at the direction of the Board would have the requirement to go back in and bring the project as close to pre-construction conditions as possible. And under that standpoint, I would guide the Board in an issue, if we got into one like that -- that if it's a decision to remove below-grade infrastructure, which does not affect the county in general, versus tearing down buildings that were incomplete -- that I would like to legal guidance to recommend that the monies be used to tear down the structures and leave the unfinished infrastructure in the ground that is not going to hurt somebody else. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Is there someone else that's registered to speak on this subject or is there someone else, whether they're registered or not, to speak on this subject? MR. MORTON: If I could, Gary Butler was the co-chairperson of the subdivision section. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 44 CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT~ Okay. MR. MORTON: And he has a lot of technical ability on this issue and he would like to add a few things. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Okay. Gary. }~R. BUTLER: One thing I wanted to emphasize is we're only asking for the ability of the owner of record to apply for permits. This will become particularly important on condominiums, with Fralich's information and with what staff is talking about enforcing, most condominiums would also go through subdivisions. In that subdivision process with the condominium, you would need to know what your final site plan was going to look like in order to plat that and to provide for egress, ingress, easements, and things like that. So the first part of that, getting site development plan approval prior to recording would be very important. The idea that we're going to rip buildings down with bonds, I think is against the law anyway. If you're going to have a bond posted, it's to finish the subdivision improvements, not to rip down a building that was partially finished. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 45 I Just think that it's a person's property right. He should be allowed to go ahead and build his project on his own propert. When he wants to transfer that property or sell a lot or sell a building, the plat should be recorded. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Butler, I don't understand. I've lost the issue. What's the problem from the development community's perspective? Are you being held up or is it that you don't want to post the bond as soon as you might -- why is this an the owner's obligation? It's the way you've operated in the past. What's the problem that that has created for the development community? MR. BUTLER: Things are being done piecemeal in some fashion, in the past. You have entered into development agreements with developers to allow them to proceed with a golf course, to get building permits for certain items, on a case-by-case basis. That would eliminate all that. In the past, most condominiums have not been forced into platting issue. If they were going to have a phase one, a phase two, a phase three of a condominium, they OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 46 were not required to plat. issue. That's been a very recent I think we should be encouraging people to plat, myself. It's an orderly development of the land. But when you place a hardship that the plat has to be reviewed and recorded prior to even going back in for your SDP, you're placing a hardship time-wise and financially on the individual developer. here? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: MR. BUTLER: What's the financial down side Time is money, of course. Another thing that happens is when you post a bond, you're tying up a credit. You post a million dollar bond, you're tying up a million dollars' worth of your credit, per se. Most of these are done with letters of credit, and you're going out there and trying to put that million dollars in the ground at the same time, which is a constant battle. So there is a hardship there for many developers. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, is there -- what's the lag time normally? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 47 I mean, how long -- suppose we said that you can do it provided that you can record the plat within thirty days or sixty days? Otherwise, I mean, you could delay recording the final plat for as long as you'd like to. MR. BUTLER: Until you wanted to get a CO on a building. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: Yeah. So you could have a lot of structures out there and building along and not want to post the bonds, and I guess you're going to say cash flow, but there is no time limitation within which you would have to record your plat after you got your building permit under your position. So you could go indefinitely. That's the way you would like it to be? MR. BUTLER: No. I would like it to be tied to CO's or buildings. In other words, I cannot CO a building or sell a building to anybody until that plat is recorded. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Is there any other questions of the commissioners? There was someone else from the audience that wanted to speak on this item? MR. APGAR: Yes. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS 48 CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: (No verbal response; indicating.) MR. APGAR: Madam Chairman, member of the Board. I'm Bob Apgar, representing Citizen's Political Committee. We support the staff on this issue. We think the county needs the safeguards that this process provides. It's a regular development process. It's used throughout Florida. It's a real standard process. I wanted to tell you just briefly, too, we have a little bit of a problem with the way the development of the draft has gone forward because the committee and the task force seems to represent almost entirely your development community, and it's not a balanced representation from the community. We are going to try to jump in and provide some of that from this point forward, but I just wanted to make you aware as we participate that we are new players here. We're trying to get up to speed as fast as possible on what has gone on in this code, and we'll give you our input as quickly and as accurately as we can. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Thank you. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 3396~ 49 COMMISSIONER HASSE: John, to the best of your knowledge, is this the typical approach in other counties, in other communities throughout Florida? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yes. From reading of other subdivisions regulations from some of our research, I can find nobody. There are some counties that under special development agreements, which your county attorney is cautious about. I will remind you that we have brought specific agreements, preliminary work authorizations, to the Board to deal with the issue of golf courses which are long lead time and structures that are specifically related to the golf course, the need for an irrigation pump station, a maintenance building for the greening in process, but we have not recommended to you going any further. There may be some opportunity under a subdivision type agreement to deal with the signs that Mr. Morton is talking about, and we'll get into the issue of clubhouses 'and site development plans in the next item, but we can find no place where the county runs out and starts offering building permits and gets people going. In response to the issue of the CO, you of course OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 50 get down to the point that the county then becomes under pressure -- we've got people sitting on the curb, we need to go right away -- and it gets jammed onto the Board agenda, as a lot of things do, because now it's a hurry up and rush situation. We don't think staff or the Board should be put in that situation on a plat, and it also ties back into the primary issue that under your zoning ordinance and what is in Article Two today, you would be able to at least deal with a temporary sales complex where you could at least begin initial marketing. Dave Pettrow has advised me that under this type of scenario that would probably completely disallow doing such as that because an owner would then have to say: I am not marketing; I am not doing anything; I'm not putting anything up for sale; therefore, no sales complex, no nothing. So I see no advantage to it. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Bill Merrill, is that the same approach? MR. MERRILL: Yes. I concur. The State norm is to require the platting prior to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 51 the building permit, and for most of the reasons that John has stated. I have a number of other reasons that we don't need to take a lot of time on today, but legal reasons, as well, that I believe that this is, the staff language is the language that should be supported. MR. APGAR: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Uh-huh. Yes. MR. RICHARDSON: Madam Chairman. Dwight Richardson. I rise just to a point of clarification to the previous speaker that says that there was no citizen input into this committee. The committee composition was established by the county manager and was approved by all five board members and the specific selections to the committee were made on the basis of the contributions that you commissioners felt that the individual members would make. There were three citizen members designated in the composition of that committee. I am one of those members. I might point out to the previous speaker that these were sunshine meetings. They were publicly noticed. We OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 52 had over seventy of them. I attended the vast majority of those meetings, and they never attended one of them. I appreciate that he has a lot of running to do to catch up, but I would ask you to take into account his reflection of what happened in those committee structure with a grain of salt because what I observed is that the development requirements, the zoning issues, the general provisions, everything that you will be hearing, have greatly tightened up and have gone to protect this community and not to favor the development. And I think you'll see that as we go through that, and I'll be happy to point out those areas that I feel have been strengthened. And I commend -- myself, I commend the committee for the work that they have done, the staff for its cooperative spirit, and I think we have made some great strides and I hope we will be able to demonstrate that to you in this workshop. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Thank you. Are there any other speakers on this subject? Gary. MR. MADAJEWSKI: I had just one point to add and for OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier Countv Courthouse. Ma~l~. 53 reference would be -- because, believe me, we have looked at this issue closely, for the attorneys on the Board and the others -- would be to review the Cane Homes, Inc. (phonetic) versus the City in Fort Lauderdale, a 1982 case, which specifically necessitated platting and indicated that the city was not required to issue building permits if platting was not conformed with. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Gary. MR. BUTLER: I wanted to clarify one thing. There are two issues here. One is site development plan approval, and the other one is building permits. Building permits, in my mind, are partially already covered under the model and under the development agreement, you know, scenarios to where most of those problems would go away. Many counties in Florida have strict platting laws and many of those counties do not have a split process where you go through a subdivision process followed by site development plan process. So if we could split those two issues and consider each one separately, I think it would be in everyone's best interest. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 54 next. MR. MADAJEWSKI~ We will be discussing that issue COS~ISSIONER SAUNDERS: Madam Chairman, do you want to go ahead and poll the Board and see what -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Yeah. What I want to ask each one of the Board members is that is this item should be red flagged and if it should, then it would be brought up for discussion later. If you don't feel like there needs to be a red flag on it, then we'll move on. C05~ISSIONER HASSE: Madam Chairman, if we're assured that there aren't going to be any buildings out there, any house that are partially complete. Is that a fact that I'm hearing here? That's what bothers me. You know, we have some partially finished houses in this county that have been sitting there for years basically. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That's what we're saying. You need a level of assurance that this is not going to happen to create a special -- COS~ISSIONER HASSE: That's what I'm looking for. MR. MADAJEWSKI: And that's why staff is OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 3396~ 55 recommending that we do not change our procedures. You are going to get that odd ball after the subdivision is all done, blessed, that a builder unto himself goes bankrupt, and that becomes a civil matter. We don't want to bring the county into that type of arena. In looking about this, I would ask the Board to look at one of the side sheets that we have discussed here. The staff is not in total disagreement on one of the issues with the committee. That would be section 3.2.6.3.4. That is on page 3-9. You had a little conflict in the green document due to the time rushing around to try, after Mr. Morton and I and Mr. Butler, worked through changes, to get them in. Whoa. The section was typed wrong. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Whoa. Wait a minute. The first item that I want to take up for It's Subparagraph One. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. discussion, that I thought that we were discussing, was 3.2.4.2 and .3. MR. MADAJEWSKI: I also wraped this one into it because it deals with the same issue. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. So 3.2.6.3.4. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse. Na~l~. 56 MR. MADAJEWSKI: there. I had like to make a clarification Staff had originally recommended that you could not get the building permits until preliminary acceptance of the required subdivision improvements was actually done. That would mean you would post your bond, build everything and then, after it was all done, building permits be issued. We feel there is some degree of flexibility there in trying to look at the overall issue and would recommend that we hold to that language, that no building permits shall be issued prior to approval by the Board of County Commissioners and recordation of the final plat. Period. COb~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: and recordation? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yes. So you're putting in there And recordation. But leaving out the issue of preliminary acceptance, which does provide some flexibility, is currently what we are doing today. There had been some initial concerns. We feel that there are enough monitoring ability that that would probably be an unfair burden on the development community at this time and we would recommend OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS County Courthouse, Naples. Florida 339r2 57 that change. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Does the Board of County Commissioners come out of there or does it stay in? MR. MADAJEWSKI: No. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: MR. ~DAJEWSKI~ Yes. COMMISSIONER HASSE: COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Commissioner Hasse. MR. MADAJEWSKI: The BCC stays in. Stays in. Yeah. That's highlighted. No, it's the pink sheet, So what you see in the green document today, even though typed wrong, is what we would agree to. On page 3-9, if you look at that Subparagraph One titled General, again, "by the BCC" is added language. What you see there is what we would agree to. That does draw back from our original staff position regarding preliminary acceptance. MR. MORTON: You were -- Commissioner Goodnight, you were starting to do a poll on whether you wanted to hear any more about this issue. I would only make one request. We apparently haven't done as good a job today as we OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 58 did yesterday with the CCPC because they seemed to have a little better understanding where we were coming from and weren't ready to, you know, make any kind of decision one way or the other. I don't know what your all's decision would be. I guess I would like to request if we do another workshop, I will get with the peoDle and we'll put together a little bit better presentation with some more detail because I really think that there's some issues in terms of what this is going to do in flexibility, in terms of retention of vegetation and things that -- is what my biggest problem with it is. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: There are no decisions being made today. This is just a workshop. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: And the only thing that I'm going to ask is that if they have a problem with what staff is saying, then staff is going to need to take it back to the committee. But that by no means means that the committee cannot bring it back up. Okay. Then the first item that I'm going to take if 3.2.4.2 and three. Do we need to have a red flag on that, Commissioner OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier Countv Courthouse, 5~mDlm~. 59 Shanahan? COS~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: No. As far as I'm concerned, I'm comfortable at this point in time. I certainly will be wide open to listen to further discussion, but I'm comfortable with staff and counsel's recommendations. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: COmmISSIONER HASSE: CHAIR~.~N GOODNIGHT: CO~4ISSIONER VOLPE: CHAIR~N GOODMIGHT: Mr. Hasse? I, the same. Mr. Volpe? I agree. Mr. Saunders? COmmISSIONER SAUNDERS: I agree. CHAIRS~N GOODNIGHT: Okay. All agree. The next item is 3.2.6.3.4. Mark, I guess that you're now in agreeance with what staff is saying and that there is not a problem with that. MR. BUTLER: That's really the same item. MR. OLLIFF: It's the same idea as the previous, too. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Yeah. But it's -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: We reduced the severity of the original debate by removing preliminary acceptance, but we OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 60 still have the issue the building permits would not be issued prior to plat. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: As far as I'm concerned that's not the point. The point is in the pink sheets here, you are accepting what the committee is recommending? COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: Well, if the pink sheets say no building permit shall be issued prior to approval by the Board of County Commissioners and recordation of the final subdivision plat. Period. That's what the -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: But the committee is requesting that the words "and recordation" be stricken. We're saying that those words must stay in. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: But it's not in the green I thought you said we were looking at the green sheet. sheets. week. MR. MERRILL: That is an error in doing that in one It just didn't get in. MR. MADAJEWSKI= I tried to explain. If you look in your books, you will find a pink sheet and you will find a yellow sheet. The reason for -- when the green sheet came out, it was not what the conflict should have read. So we say if OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 339'~2 61 you would look at the pink sheet on this one -- COM~ISSIONER VOLPE: Yeah. MR. MADAJEWSKI: And if you would strike out -- add back in the words "and recordation," and strike out the words "and preliminary acceptance of required improvements." CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: This is it here in the yellow sheet, Section 3.2.6, Subdivision Review Procedures 3.2.6.3.4? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Right. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: And that's the language that you're asking? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Well, if you look at this sheet, and now in the fourth line, subdivision plat, place a period and strike the rest of that line. That is what staff is presenting, and it is back to the issue that you just discussed. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: And adds back Board of County Commissioners. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yes. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Because in this one, out Board of County Commissioners. it strikes OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 ........... _~-- .................. ~'~ ~ I 62 MR. MADAJEWSKI: That's right. COS~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: But what we're saying, John is no building permit shall be issued prior to approval by the Board of County Commissioners of the final subdivision plat. MR. MADAJEWSKI: And it's recording. COS~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: And it's recording. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Uh-huh. The same issue that we just took the straw vote on. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: Okay. MR. MADAJEWSKI: The next item -- if we could, I would -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHTs Okay. MR. MADAJEWSKI: If we could, because we have been talking procedure, I would just like to jump over, because Gary mentioned it, prior to final subdivision plat, Item 3.2.7.3.4, which is site development approval and construction document. It's basically your same issue. COMMISSIONER VOLPE= 3.2.7.3.4? MR. MERRILL: The fourth item on the white sheet. MR. MADAJEWSKI: It's in the same vein, so I thought OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 3396~ 63 while we were on it, before we got on to something else, it might be better to at least discuss that one. That specifically relates to site development plan approval on a specific, legal piece of ground, and the committee has requested that the county grant site development plan approval on a lot or a tract within a subdivision that has not been recorded. Site development plan approval would allow the commencement of further site specific infrastructure on a piece of ground that was not recorded, did not exist on the legal records. Staff has said we need to continue with the current process we have today, which is: You do your subdivision~ if your subdivision is recorded, then you may obtain a building permit and at the same time would be allowed to have your site development plan approval for that site because the site now legally exists. Without the plat recorded, the site doesn't exist; and we see no reason to go further with an improvement that is not required by the subdivision but is required by an individual to enhance development of a single piece of property supported by the subdivision improvements. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples. Florida 64 It's a heirachy of approvals. You get the subdivision; if you record it, you may get the building permits. Building permits are synonymous to development on a specific piece of ground created by the subdivision. When through the zoning section you are required to do a site development plan, we're saying if you've done all of your guarantees and bonding for your subdivision and could get a building permit on single family lot, then in turn you should be able to get your site development plan approval to develop the individual piece of ground that is now a recorded lot. Without the recording, it's basically back to the same issue we just talked about. COMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, give us an example. Let's assume that you've got a -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: In current process today, if a developer had a ten-acre site of ground fronting Airport Road that was all -- was either a plotted tract already or was a free-standing tract on the tax record which did not meet the test of subdivision by our definition, he could come in, apply for a site development plan under the provisions of Section Ten Five of the zoning ordinance OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Flor~.da 33962 65 today, Division 3.3 of this code, proceed through, obtain his approvals and work solely administratively with the staff. It would not require any Board hearing, workshop, anything like that. But in a subdivision, when it is a new subdivision and the subdivision does not exist, meaning it is not recorded, the piece of ground does not legally exist in Collier County from the basis of the county being able to issue a property owner the approval to go in and do work prior to the subdivision which is going to support his property. Without the subdivision, he will not have a drainage system, a water system, a sewer system, a road system. And why should we be issuing to a property owner who isn't legally a property owner the right to start development on his land before we know the subdivision exists to support that development. It comes down to a very logical heirachy. The cart can't come before the horse. The subdivision must be there first or must be going on concurrently. What we're saying is if it's a concurrent review process, then that's fine, but not start the site before OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 66 the subdivision is legally approved. And that's currently what goes on today. MR. MERRILL: In essence, what John is saying is that with regard to multi-family and non-residential development, which would be the ones that would use the site development plan, those could circumvent the subdivision process by going through site development first if we were allowed to approve that first. Once they're up, they're up. The entire -- the entire project could be built for site development plan, and then they go in for a subdivision after the fact. Well, it's a little late at that point for the Board to say that we don't like this plan. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: Well, if there is a multi-family parcel of land within the Gray Oaks subdivision and I want to buy the piece of property to build some condominiums. Use that as the example. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Right. Well, one, you could legally buy that piece of property from the developer. You could close on it, but the county, unless plotted -- and that's why I refer you OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier Countv Courthouse, Na~]~. 67 to the Cane (phonetic) case -- has no obligation to grant you, the owner of that property, a building permit. We are dealing with just such an issue up in Pelican Bay right now. MR. MERRILL: However, if that is -- I don't know that particular property, but if that is an existing subdivision and it's already zoned multi-family and so on, you can go ahead and proceed. You don't need to go through the subdivision. So this isn't going to be retroactively applied provision for those. If you've already got the subdivision, you will not be subdividing that parcel any further because it's an already existing lot. MR. MADAJEWSKI: You would not be subdividing it unless you went in to do something that qualifies you as a resubdivision of land. If you took your twenty acres and wanted to break it uD into ten single-family lots, then you would be re-subdividing. But if you were coming in under a unified plan that fit under site development, then you would just proceed through that process. So it really depends, once the tract is created, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 68 what the developer wants to do with it as to which process he would have to go through. Again, as I say, it's basically the same issue except that it folds in the other issue of the multi-family or higher use designation which requires a site plan approval whereas single family and duplex do not. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mark. MR. MORTON: The site development plat approval would give you the ability to start infrastructure. We have already heard that we wouldn't be allowed to pull a building permit on this site development plan that was approved without having the plat recorded. What we have now done is step one more step back and say: You can't start the infrastructure on the project until you've recorded the plat. Then this one in particular, I don't quite understand how we can approve massive infrastructure in a subdivision prior to recording the plat but we can't approve some minor infrastructure inside of a site development plan prior to recording that. They won't allow you -- they don't give you approval OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 339~2 69 of your SDP until the plat is recorded. See you have heard about our SDP process that we're trying to get down in the one-stop shop to occur in so many months. When you overlay the plat on top of it, you're trying to get the plat recorded, which is not something that only takes -- it doesn't take a short amount of time. So this is, like John says, they're married together, and maybe this is one step further that, to us, that now it's even into the infrastructure. Because an SDP is the construction plans for a parcel within a subdivision. The construction plan approval, that you can get without recording the plat, is construction plans for a subdivision. It's usually ten times the magnitude of maybe the infrastructure on an SDP. So I'm not quite sure how we approve construction plans for infrastructure because it's at the owner's risk but when we get into an SDP, we can't approve minor infrastructure improvements there. We're just piling everything so close together to try to get all of the permits and get everything done. It's just making it about impossible to, you know, to work OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 70 with the system. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So are you saying that, with respect to the infrastructure, that the proposal here wouldn't allow you to -- you've got the main road built through your community and you've got a parcel of land that you want to develop for multi-family, you want to bring in some access roads and so on. You're saying that you would like to be able to do that before the SDP has been approved? MR. MORTON: I would like to get my SPD approval for it. They won't even approve your SDP until the plat is recorded. I would like to get the SDP approved and like we do on the infrastructure, start the infrastructure. COmmISSIONER VOLPE: Well, that goes back to -- well, we have already -- that issue, just to -- having made -- having come to a preliminary conclusion about building permit issuance before the plat recordation, is -- does that just means that this next issue has to fall in place? You can't go back? They're all tied one to the other? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 71 I mean, that's -- MR. MORTON: If the final conclusion is that the building permit, you have to have the plat recorded. Okay. We have -- suppose we have caught everything at that point, according to what staff is proposing. Now we're saying that on a parcel, we have to back up in the process even further into the infrastructure for that site development plan. You know, the road that runs up to the unit. We can't start that now, either, until the plat is recorded. So I kind of guess -- to us, it's the building -- you know, if we end up that we have to record the plat prior to the building permit, now we're also going to be recording the plat prior to final SDP approval. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: But that's logical, though, isn ' t it? I mean, that just has to follow. If you didn't get the building permit. MR. MORTON: No. The approval SDP ~oes not allow you to build the building. We're saying our protection, that we want, is on the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 72 building. We want to make sure that the building gets built or we want the building -- we want that plat recorded prior to the building so someone who hasn't recorded that plat and tries to sell that unit, you know, the county can't catch up to that so we want to try to get that plat recorded now. Now we're talking about the infrastructure for the building can't be put in until -- you can't get approval for it. Because once you have addressed the SDP approval, you can go out and start the infrastructure. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That's infrastructure on the specific piece of ground. We're debating current regulations today which have worked exceedingly well, especially since we have revamped the 1989, have gone through one cycle of cleaning that up further, your site development plan approval. It still gets down to the basic issue. What Mr. Morton is requesting is that you allow to further go in and clear and do improvements within the property that are not part of the base support infrastructure for the subdivision. We now want to go beyond the base support OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Navies. 73 infrastructure, which would be unbonded, unguaranteed, and allow that to perpetuate even further on to the lots that don't exist if the plat isn't recorded and expand your level of impact prior to a guarantee that that subdivision is ever going to go forward. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Make sure I understand what the basic supports are. Tell me, give me an example of basic supports. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Your basic support infrastructure would be your main roadway system, the main water and sewer systems connecting to the county or whoever is the provider, the water management system which would normally consists of the lakes and the culverts and the drainage swales and the outlets, all of those built within the created rights-of-way or necessary easements within the property that support the development of the individual tracts. What Mr. Morton is requesting is that without recording of the plat and a guarantee that those improvements are going to be completed, he wants to allow further development inside the boundaries of the property on the individual, unrecorded lots. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, 5]anles. 74 CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Such as? MR. MADAJEWSKI~ Such as the building of a clubhouse, such as the building of a multi-family building prior to -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: But he can't get a building permit if what we just said isn't approved. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That's correct. But what he's asking for through the SDP process is to be able to move onto that piece of ground and basically tear it open, clear it, start to build parking lots, water lines, sewer lines, whatever, to connect to the improvements within the subdivision right-of-way that are unbonded and unguaranteed. So you're perpetuating the clearing, the destruction, the removal of things on the site prior to any guarantees in place that the water, the sewer, the roads, the drainage to support that site will ever exist. now. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. Wait right there, Mark, if you go in and put in your basic infrastructure, then you're going to know what your plats are going to be or how that you're going to figure out OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 75 which lots are what. Is that not -- I mean, my problem with the thing would be that if you were not putting in your basic infrastructure, then you wouldn't know where your main roads and your utility lines and everything was going to be, that you were going to place them. But now you're telling me that even after you do all of this that you're not going to know where your lots are going to be; so, therefore, you can't plot it -- plat it until you get some of the infrastructure in on the individual lots? I'm not not sure that I completely understand that. MR. MORTON: Yeah, I think, you know, what I would propose: We'll go back, we'll put some graphics and stuff together for either the first public hearing for CCPC or if we all have another workshop because, you know, I think that's what we might need is some pictures to kind of see, you know, with some example projects of how this would work. You know, just to say what John Just said, I'm not quite sure how I'm going to convey and sell a unit to somebody if he's implying that the main infrastructure up OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 76 to that parcel isn't even existing, that somehow I can go out and start on my SDP without my construction plan, subdivision approvals. I just don't, you know, I -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Morton, what is the -- is the issue, again, a timing issue and an economic issue? It's very much a timing issue, and if MR. MORTON: this -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: MR. MORTON: COM~XISSIONER VOLPE: this workshop. MR. MORTON: I'm just trying to understand. Yeah, I understand. You know, that's the purpose of Yeah. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: The timing issue with, you know, we've got preliminary subdivision master plan approval. We have tried to expedite those procedures. Does that address to any extent the timing issue as you see it, or not? MR. MORTON: I think that's part of it, is to attempt to expedite that process. You know, when you get -- you're going to get a final SPD approval. The SDP approval process is tremendous. You have to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 77 have water management plans, sod construction, you have to do -- you can't believe the hoops you jump through to get your final SDP. So then it does get down to a timing issue. God, I've done everything that everybody wanted you to do. I've got all of the plans worked out, everybody on staff has looked at it. You know, we have caught every loophole. Now, well, you can't go out and start yet until you get that plat recorded, which the plat recording process is another lengthy process. And we're just trying to say that it's not really protecting anybody. So the plat recording is to prevent conveyance of land. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Can they not have it concurrently? MR. MADAJEWSKI: not classify as a lengthy process. It depends on the quality of the documents submitted to the county on how long it takes to do the process, and we have -- if you read into the document, joined these to create them as concurrent processes when they're logically going along. The plat recording process, I would OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 78 So it's purely the feeling that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If we're going to move forward, we need to move forward logically so that there is a proper chain of events that staff can review and approve from, can then monitor through the construction and we don't get an issue where you get the potential for home buyers or somebody coming in here and requesting the Board: I've got to have a CO tomorrow, we're not done, the water line is not finished, but I've got a temporary line run out to Airport Road and we're going to use a port-a-potty. It's not good planning. It's not good administrative and legislative procedure. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I think that Mark is right. I think I need to see more on this because either last night's meeting has just really scrambled my brain or I don't understand what you're talking about. MR. MORTON: I have a hard time, you know, trying to fight "maybe ghosts" and "if" situations. And I guess that's maybe my hardest time. I guess I need to have some specific drawings that we can talk back and forth about. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 79 CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Well, I thought that when a site development plan was approved that you knew at that time what your plot or how you were going to do your lots and everything like that. I mean I thought -- and so, therefore, can't see why it is, if that's going to be a problem. So, you know, you need to get that because right now I'm not following you at all. MR. MORTON: It basically comes down to if you run into a minor, bump up against a setback or the other parcels around you aren't platted, then the property line could move to accommodate the shifting of a building or a water line or something, for existing vegetation on site, et cetera, that you are now in the position that you have recorded the plat, so you're up against a plat amendment and coming back for a minor three-foot shift of a property line that nobody has a problem with, including staff, because you recorded too early in the process. Let the construction get done. See where, so you can get the final plat. Probably eighty percent of them don't have minor changes, but those miDor changes will occur. I guaran -- time and time again, we're OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33~62 80 desensitizing people that are out there that would run into some nice vegetation, want to shift the building or something, they -- even staff wants it to be done. That applicant is not going to put themselves through a re-plat process. COb~ISSIONER VOLPE: How would you respond to that? MR. MADAJEWSKI~ I can only respond to it that that's what the planning is for. When you prepare the plat and if you want to go one step further and look at the site versus the main infrastructure, you're walking yourselves into a concurrency issue on, without the subdivision being guaranteed, recorded and bonded, you will not be able to be found concurrent with your concurrency growth management section of the ordinance and they could not issue a concurrency certificate, so I couldn't deal with the site plan and you couldn't get a buildino permit. Because you are not now dealing with direct county infrastructure; you're dealing with the middle man, the developer, and what he's going to put in to get to that piece of ground. So you're going to bring concurrency into this. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 81 COmmISSIONER VOLPE: Where there is a minor deviation that Mr. Morton has addressed, is there a way that that can be dealt with administratively? I mean, if it's less than three feet or something? Or is that -- I mean, he's saying go through the whole replatting process. He seemed to get very emotional about that issue in terms of driving this. Is there some relief that you give where it's a minor type? MR. MADAJEWSKI: If it deals with a -- the change of a lot line due to a discrepancy, there are provisions in the front section of this division that will allow a procedure for lot line adjustments as long as the adjustment when made is in agreement between the property owners, is approved by the Development Services Director and the lot that would then remain after the adjustment is found not to be a non-conforming lot. So there is an administrative procedure. It will require the filing of the document. Nobody has objected to that language in here that provides that avenue. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Okay. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 82 MR. MORTON= I think in state law, if you record a plat, you just can't administratively change it. MR. MADAJEWSKI: It's not administratively changed. You can buy two lots and build one house on those lots. Under unity of title, you may go in and you may do a lot split. You may buy lot one and the east half of lot two and build a house on it and so long as the remaining half of the lot and the lot next to it, whatever you leave remaining is still a legally non-conform -- it's not, doesn't get into a non-conforming issue, and then it would require that, you know, the guy who sold you the half also owns the third lot. So that is -- that is an existing procedure that does not require amendment, recording or a fictitious lot. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So you just -- but let me. Just a minute. This provision may allow some relief for that specific instance' that Mr. Morton is talking about. MR. MADAJEWSKI: It's in there. All we did was clarify. Bill Merrill provided clarification to us on the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 83 proper legal procedure to deal with lot line adjustment so that the public record properly reflects and the chain of title can be picked up. COMMISSIONER HASSE: That's proper at the present time, isn't it? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yes, it is. We have only clarified the process a little. COS~ISSIONER HASSE: I see. MR. MORTON: I can only say that our intent is good to expedient process, to not have plats coming back to you all the time for minor amendments or even if -- I don't know who is going to judge these minor amendments, in its attempt to retain vegetation, et cetera, and we're going to go back and look at it some more and try to come back with some of those examples that I just think for some reason we're not communicating clearly with staff, for whatever reason. MR. MADAJEWSKI: It's very clear. COMMISSIONER HASSE: I would think your plan would tell you that in any event. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Communication with staff is very clear. Our position -- OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 84 MR. DORRILL: You don't have to talk about "ghosts" or "maybes" either. When we come back, we'll talk about unit eighteen at Pelican Bay and whether my good friend Mr. Case (phonetic) condominium SDP should be approved prior to the Dlat being filed and approved that, among other things, conveys fifteen acres of park property to the citizens of Collier County. And I don't know how you're going to be able to give, bring a preliminary or final site development plans or a portion of an unplatted parcel when there are other things that relate to roads and primary water and sewer facilities in public parks that also need to be resolved within the same plat. MR. MORTON: We just have difficulty when we're dealing with it on the staff. If we can see that example and talk it over with them and see why that -- maybe there is something -- it is so compelling to do it. We just at this point have been talking with them, and we're still oDen to sit down and talk about it because we have valid concerns about the minor shifts, et cetera, and, you know, what it does to the process in trying to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 85 plat early. C05~ISSIONER VOLPE: We're also working on it, trying to improve the procedures through development services. So some of that may be -- some of all of this may be driven by some delays that the development community has encountered in the process that currently is in place. So -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: No response to one of the -- probably one of the main lead-in items that I should have mentioned and didn't mention in just my perusal presentation: I can assure you that staff is working with the committee to try to develop a user friendly document which will lead you to the process, will create the reasonable and legal -- I will not, don't want to call them shortcuts, but -- expediencies to move a project through based on what the developer wants to do. If he wants to run concurrent and do his subdivision and his SDP, we can work that process, we can make it move where there is a customer service agency, but we want the rules clear so that we have uniform and equal application to anybody who walks into our office. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 86 CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. On the category 3.2.7.3.4. You have a problem? COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: I don't have a problem. will again be very willing to listen to further discussion; but in my opinion, staff and counsel's recommendation is acceptable. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: CO5~ISSIONER HASSE: Commissioner Hasse? I can see that too, but if we need some pictures drawn for these people to understand what you're doing -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: They understand it. They would like to draw some pictures for the Board. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Well, let them draw it. COS~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: So that we could understand their view a little bit better. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That's correct. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: And as far as my feelings, I think that's just exactly what you need to do because I -- either I'm wrong and you need to prove, show me where I'm wrong or, you know, I'm leaning towards what staff is saying, and I need to see something to make me see it your way because at this point, I don't. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 87 Mike? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I concur. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I agree. MR. MORTON: I just want to clear one thing up. The committee is not -- our position on this is not to promulgate projects that don't get finished and building being vacant. And if that's truly the case and this remedies that, and if we can't find another way to do it without causing other problems, then we will definitely cede to that. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: We understand that. MR. MORTON: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: But I think that what we want is just a clear understanding of what you're saying. Yeah. COS~ISSIONER HASSE: didn't you? CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: You did meet with our staff, Yeah. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Seventy times. MR. RICHARDSON: Interminably. COb~ISSIONER HASSE: I would have thought that you would have had these things lined up. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 ............... ~ ~1 88 MR. RICHARDSON: (No verbal response; indicating.) CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: We're going to take about a five-minute break so that our stenographer, since she doesn't have a person to come in and relieve her, can take a few minutes with her fingers, and then we'll be back. (Recess taken.) CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. I'll call the meeting back to order. (Gavel used.) CHAIR~N GOODNIGHT: All right. I have the floor. John. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Going on. Sections 3.2.7.3.1 and .5. issue of reviewing final subdivision plats and construction documents prior to approval of the preliminary. In both of these sections, 7.3.1 is reconditioned for improvement plans in final subdivision plats. 7.3.5 is the relationship to zoning in planned unit developments. The committee has requested that before the preliminary subdivision plat is actually approved by the Going back on schedule. This is dealing with the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, ~aples, Florida 33962 89 Planning Commission that staff would have the right to start reviewing final documents that would be based on that preliminary, and we're saying how do you start a final review until the preliminary has been blessed and agreed to. End of discussion. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: Does the procedure, though, allow for these to proceed currently? MR. MADAJEWSKI: No. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: It does not. MR. MADAJEWSKI: We're saying that until you have your preliminary review and you have the preliminary approval which sets the basis of the subdivision -- what it will actually look like, what are the water and sewer systems, you know, the basic blueprint -- that it is just not logical to start reviewing final documents based on something that doesn't exist. MR. BUTLER: The request is simply that we be allowed to turn in the final site plans once John's staff has approved the preliminary. There's a period of time between when John recommends that for approval to the Planning Commission OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS 90 and the time that the Planning Commission actually acts and approves that. And we've gone one step further. We have said that we're willing to repay the review fees if something is changed in the public hearing. In other words, if somebody comes back and says they want something moved or something changed and it has to come back to Planning Commission a week later, two weeks later, that we would pay staff to re-review the plans if there was a changed that significantly changed the review. COS~ISSIONER HASSE: Well, that's you. But somebody else may not want to pay it. MR. BUTLER: Well, we put that in the document, that we have the right to request that. MR. MADAJEWSKI: today. COMMISSIONER HASSE: MR. MADAJEWSKI: in the document. The word "may" is in the document What? The word may pay additional fees is COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Yeah. MR. MADAJEWSKI: In the nature of timing, we're talking approximately five working days, and I have a problem in granting a concession to start final reviews OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 91 before the preliminary is approved for the span of approximately five working days. In speaking with Ken Baginski, the Planning Services Manager, the report that is finalized and goes to the Planning Commission is basically presented to them a week ahead of time or five working days. So we're talking about picking up five days, me having to sit and hold documents to wait, wait five days to see if Planning Commission is done. And the other item that I don't like is historically as soon as it is into the county, it's: County has got it, they're taking their time with it. I don't need that in my process in the documents. When I get a document in, I want to be able to send it to my staff and start a review, not wait and possibly have to pull it back and do it again. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: Is the issue, 5~r. Butler, a timing issue for your group? MR. BUTLER: Yes. We would be real happy with language that said that we could submit it five days after staff, you know, recommended the documents for approval. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That is the Planning Commission OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 92 dates, so why even have it? MR. BUTLER: If I waited the five days, we wouldn't have this item in -- C05~ISSIONER VOLPE: Well, what has been your experience? I mean, there is obviously -- I assume that in this instance you, representing the development community, are speaking from actual experience. MR. BUTLER: Yes. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: Okay. So what's been the experience? What's the time lag that you're concerned about? He says five days. MR. BUTLER: Well, in the past, it has been a more lengthy procedure because it has gone through Planning Commission and county commission, and it never -- COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: But now the recommendation is that it's not going to go through the Board of County Commissioners any longer. MR. BUTLER: That was typically a thirty to sixty-day process in the past. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: And that's -- you found that to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 93 be burdensome? MR. BUTLER: Not to me personally. I get a great deal of work on the second project. But to the developers, yes. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That's why we have looked at the streamlining in getting these through, why we have recommended, based on the national standards, that it not go to one more step to the Board, which is probably another thirty-day delay, and also the issue that, as the Board voted on the 30th, we now have a single Environmental Advisory Board which cuts down another step in the process. So I can assure you staff has looked and has brought back logical proposals to streamline the development process so that we are not missing anything, we are not giving up or ignoring things, but that we are doing it in the most efficient and timely manner possible. I guess I -- you know. Doing a final before you have the preliminary which sets the basis for the final, starting it, just does not appear logical. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Is there anyone else that needs to speak on this item? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 94 (No response.) CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: C05~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: and five, I'm satisfied. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: CO~&MISSIONER HASSE: CHAIR~N GOODNIGHT: Commissioner Volpe. CO5~ISSIONER VOLPE: CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mr. Shanahan. On thirty-seven -- 3.2.7.3.1 Commissioner Hasse. Okay. I'm fine. Yes, I'm fine as well. Commissioner Saunders. COmmISSIONER SAUNDERS: That's fine. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. The next item is 3.2.8.3.17 and 3.2.8.4.4 and fourteen. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yes. Very briefly. Since the Planning Commission meeting, we have met with the committee. The committee is working on some draft recommendations that came out of the Planning Commission, and we would suggest that we not go too far into this one. The basic issue was that staff required minimum standards for sidewalks and bike paths in any type of development. Committee desire to not address it in OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier Countv Courthouse, ~a~]~.~. 95 private. And I think we have come to an agreement that there has to be a minimum set of standards, but that the document also needs to add some flexibility to look at logical alternatives that are based on sound engineering practice and provide pedestrian safety to the residents of the subdivisions. Jeff Perry with the MPO is here, if you would like, to speak, because the MPO through their chairman, Gail Boorman, provided a letter to Commissioner Goodnight on June 18th regarding this issue and some concerns they had. At this point in time, Jeff will be working as basically a third party -- committee, staff and the MPO -- on the sidewalk/bike path issue. COb~ISSIOMER VOLPE: to discuss it right now? MR. MADAJEWSKI: No. be at this point. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: we're going to bring back -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yes. CHAIRb~N GOODNIGHT: So you're saying you don't want I don't think there needs to That's just something that -- at our next workshop? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 96 MR. MADAJ~SKI: Yes. We feel we can come back with either a completely agreed to item or something that would have very minor issue for the Board to look at. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mark, is that suitable with the committee? MR. MORTON: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Is there anyone in the audience that has a problem with that? (No response.) COS~ISSIONER GOODNIGHT: All right. Then tkis will be brought back. All right. The next item is 3.2.9.2.6. MR. MADAJEWSKI: The same issue exists here. We are working with the committee. The prime item is the word conservation easement. The county is not looking, except in very special, unique cases to invoke the full powers of Chapter 704 of the state statutes, but we are looking to create specific tracts or easements that set aside and preserve protected habitat species on a site-by-site basis, and we are coming up with what we feel will be proper language with the committee to deal with that one. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 ~, ~ .... . ...... :~-_~ - 97 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: of us who aren't as familiar as you, perhaps. issue here? I mean: to get at. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Mr. Madajewski, just for those What's the Just identify the issue, what we're trying Chapter 704 of the conservation easement section is very direct and severe in its application when you create a conservation easement. It gives the easement to the county which we get anyway as -- not a, quote, conservation easement, but as a protected or preserve area, which is what we're looking to entitle it, and it allows the county to transfer those rights. And among the normal issues we deal with when we are reviewing projects for wetlands or uplands, habitat protection or protection of threatened or endangered species, we don't need those full powers. We are looking to 704.06 for the criteria of what could and could not be done within an area that was deemed to be a preserve area. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, as a part of the platting, don't we sometimes plat a conservation area? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yes. We will be. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 98 This document requires the identification, through mets and bounds survey, an incorporation of either as a tract or an easement over tract conservation areas, and we'll set those out as to -- by dedication, as to whose they are, who has responsibility. Some of it may flow to the restrictions and covenants of the subdivision, and will provide the ability for the county to have the enforcement powers without directly being responsible. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Is that in lieu of a conservation easement? MR. MADAJEWSKI: That's what we're saying, that we are going to change the title -- same intent, same meaning. There are some legal ramifications that could tend to draw it into arenas that our normal work does not dictate it to be. If we come up with one where it's needed, we'll be to the Board if we have a dispute, saying this one needs to be a conservation easement and we we'll be able to provide the facts. CHAIRbL~N GOODNIGHT: Mark, that is fine with you? Is there anyone in the audience that needs to speak OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 99 on this one, then? (No response.) CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Fine. Then the next item is 3.2.8.3.14. MR. MADAJEWSKI: On this one, I will present this. If it appears that there is going to be debate, I'm going to ask you to move it back two or three notches, and Mary Morgan has requested to be called. This is an item she has requested, and it is a basic requirement that for new subdivisions if they through the development of the subdivision create a community building, then the Supervisor of Elections is requesting that an agreement be done with the Board, if the Board deems one necessary, to have that building available for use as a public place. CHAIR~N GOODNIGHT: Is there a problem with this one? MR. MADAJEWSKI~ Committee has a problem with the language so I'm -- if we're going to debate, I would ask that we move and a call be made to Mary Morgan to come up and defend her position. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Do you have a heavy debate OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 100 on -- you want Mary Morgan involved in this one, Mark? MR. MORTON: Yes. I think it would -- if you read that, when you read that language, it makes it -- the way it reads, it sounds like someone could just say you need to put a polling place in your recreation facility. And you may have a private subdivision; and, you know, those type things typically are kind of negotiated at PUD level or somewhere, and this is basically in subdivision. You go to subdivide and you put in a rec center, you have to put in a polling place. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, when you say you have to put in a polling place, you just have to make space available. She moves in the machine, doesn't she? MR. MADAJEWSKI: That is correct. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I mean, it's not like you have to do special rest room facilities or anything. MR. MADAJEWSKI: She is looking for the room as an assembly room in a church that she uses for a polling place. She is just looking for a place so that as growth comes in, if the growth dictates the need for a polling place, that she has the ability to request one. It is OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 101 still reviewed by the Board. The first paragraph there, the last sentence: The Board shall consider the recommendation of the Supervisor of Election in reaching such a determination on the need. So this is not a God-given right where the Supervisor of Elections comes in and says you're Going to do it. She can request it. That would come to the Board for a final confirmation vote before it was done and blessed. COS~ISSIOMER HASSE: That's merely coming about -- MR. MORTON: This says "shall be." COMMISSIONER MASSE: Wait a minute. MR. MORTON: Excuse me. C05~ISSIONER HASSE: This merely is coming about because she has had problems before. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Has some right now. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Mark is starting to read from the third paragraph. It says: This commitment shall be Guaranteed through an agreement. But the commitment doesn't exist until the Board has heard it and says you need to. Then the commitment is that the developer will comply with the Board's OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 102 requirement through agreement. MR. MORTON: The first sentence in the first paragraph says they "shall be required." "Polling places shall be required.'~ MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yeah, but if determined to be necessary by the BCC. There is no direct mandate. It is a Board decision based on the facts at hand. C05~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: But it is a direct mandate if we make that decision here. MR. 5iADAJEWSKI: That's correct. That would be within your power to do that. MR. OLLIFF: And that becomes a policy decision about the need for a polling place. MR. RICHARDSON: Well, then, maybe "shall" should be changed to "may" then, because it's not obligatory in every case. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I think what we'll do is, then, we'll go to the next one and we'll ask Mary to come up. COMMISSIOMER VOLPE: Is there really -- there doesn't seem to be any disagreement. I think what I'm hearing Mr. Morton say is he OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 i ,l 103 doesn't want the ordinance itself, the land development, the ordinance itself, to mandate that you have to do it. What I have heard from the discussion is that there is a process in place that would give the opportunity to bring it before the Board. If that's the case, does that satisfy you? Is it just a question of cleaning up some language here? MR. MORTON: I guess I -- I should -- I guess the people on the committee were kind of surprised by it because we sort of felt like that in most subdivisions where they have a rec center and the people live there and there's voters there, that they -- it's hard for us to imagine that if, you know, Mary Morgan asks to have a polling place set up in there and there are a lot of residents voting -- because I see them all over the place, it's typically how they get in -- that someone would say no, we don't want you in here. MR. OLLIFF: But that's why she has asked for it to be put in because she has been put in that position. CO~4MISSIONER SHANAHAN: Yeah. She's in that position right now, in fact. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 104 Yeah. COMMISSIONER HASSE: It's a subdivision issue. MR. McNEIL: McNeil (phonetic). (Whereupon an off-the-record discussion was had between committee members.) CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: You're going to need to come to the microphone so that it can be on the record. For the record, my name is Gerard I'm a member of the committee and a citizen member of the committee. Essentially, I think that if we talk about polling places as being required to be put in areas under subdivision regulation, where do we stop in terms of regulating other offices of the county or anything else being required in a subdivision? This is not a subdivision issue. It's a separate and distinct issue that shall be brought up under some other regulation but not a subdivision issue. If we say and we require polling places, then what's to say that we shouldn't have recreational areas being required? What about registration of automobiles being required? I mean, it's not a subdivision issue is the basic OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 105 premise of what I'm trying to say. MR. MADAJEWSKI: It's a development regulation. It's basically -- let Mary speak to this -- I think, growth accommodating growth where needed. And from the issue that it would be indiscreet if you wanted to move this further to the time that they pulled their SDP for their clubhouse and then wind an SDP into a specific site into an issue of a polling place. I would hear the argument that geez, you just screwed my whole process up by at the end telling me I've got to do this. When you're really dealing with subdivision, the creation, setting out the requirements that it deems necessary, the mechanism for the Supervisor of Elections to come back to the Board and say: For this project, we're going to have X number of people; they're going to build a community facility or a common facility; I just need the use of that at time of elections to bring my machines and people in; I'm not asking you to build the building; all we wish to do is occupy space that would be created at the time of elections to serve the citizens. MR. MORTOM: I guess we wouldn't have a problem OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 106 moving this type language into the zoning in the PUD section. It's kind of a zoning issue. I think Gerald makes up a good point. You know, let's add another point, fifteen, in here that says the sheriff might want to, you know, set a substation up inside. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: That's not the issue, Mr. Morton. That's stretching the issue. COmmISSIONER HASSE: You're stretching the point there. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mary. Come up, please. MS. MORGAN: Yes, ma'am. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Would you explain to the Board some of the problems that you're having with your polling places? MS. MORGAN: Yes. What it boils down to is you come in, you approve a development, the subdivision master plan, and that at that time it may project that they're going to have a population of ten thousand people who live there or fifteen thousand. They put in a community facility, a commonly held OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 107 facility for their -- you know, as a selling point, whether it's a clubhouse or a golf course or some other type function, but usually it's a clubhouse for a golf course. Of course, at that point, that's usually the first thing they build. We may not need it right away, but when they're -- they have four or five hundred people who are living there who are already registered to vote, it impacts us. We have to have a place for them to go vote. Now, everybody wants people to vote, to register, and they want them to vote, but nobody wants them to use their facility on election day. So we have historically in the county had a lot of these lovely communities developed. Everybody is -- they're what I would term a bedroom community, basically, except for that clubhouse; that's the only structure that is useful there. Everyone is very security conscious, they don't want anyone else comin~ in for security reasons, and yet the people they're going to be serving are their neighbors. So if, you know, I find some irony. If they're so security conscious, they should screen people who bought OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 108 there a little better. MR. RICHARDSON: They usually do. MS. 5~ORGAN: So if you screen the people who were buying in your area, why are you not allowing them to use your facility as a polling place? I mean your own residents. MR. RICHARDSON: But you're saying to open it up to everybody. COMMISSIONER HASSE: No. MR. RICHARDSON:'i That's what she's saying. MS. MORGAN: Realistically, it's going to be the people there with a few exceptions. find people who are willing to work. MR. RICHARDSON: there? CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Sometimes we cannot Can you put that limitation in Mr. Richardson, you're going to need to use the microphone so that the stenographer can get this on record. MS. MORGAN: think of one situation where I've got twenty people currently -- now, it may be that fifteen years from now, all of those little farms have been sold and there is a I would not normally object, but I can OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 109 big beautiful Quail Creek type development there. knows. Who But in effect, we're saying that these twenty people wouldn't be able to go vote because they don't physically live inside the boundary of that polling -- that precinct. Mike, when we try and lay out a precinct, we try to take into account the number of different elections bodies that we're going to be able to vote for, their traffic patterns. If it's a self-contained subdivision, we try to keep it self-contained, but occasionally we have to import poll workers because of the age of the people or their resident state, they are not willing to work the polls. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Excuse me, Ms. Morgan -- MS. MORGAN: And I can't tell you that I can't -- that I won't import someone. That person you import may be the Doll worker and I would be standing here and lying to you if I told you that. COmmISSIONER VOLPE: PUD's which require that there be a polling place. have -- there are provisions in the PUD ordinance. MS. MORGAN: Recently, we have approved some We That's because they're putting in that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 110 facility as a part of their development anyway. CO~ISSIONER VOLPE: Right. MR. MORGAN: So we're just saying that it has to be made available when the need arises. COmmISSIONER VOLPE: Well, we're doing that now. Does this extend that into the subdivision is what we're saying. It's not PUD. MR. MADAJEWSKI: This would cover projects that would not have that in their PUD. Older projects. mean, you have how many hundreds or thousands of units in approved PUD's today that may not have that requirement that would come in sometime in the future. So this is just providing the next, you know, coverage. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: So if we're doing it for current PUD's, why wouldn't we go back and do the same thing for -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: mechanism. C05~ISSIONER VOLPE: MS. MORGAN: Yeah. address. We would, but you don't have the I'm just saying: Why would -- That's what we're trying to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 111 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I mean, we applying this to be all right going forward. What's the problem with going back and doing it with some of those that haven't had that obligation? MR. MADAJEWSKI: None whatsoever. And that's why we're putting the language in, so that as it comes through the subdivision process that would occur. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: John, what I would recommend, though, is that we discuss the issue with the Advisory Committee. It sounds like some minor adjustments in language will get us to the same goal and objective. And let's clean up the language, see if we can't all agree on the language and take it up at the next workshop. There are some minor changes that I'd like to see in there that would afford us the same opportunity that we're trying to develop and provide the same kind of protection that the PUD is trying to get. That's my opinion. COMMISSIOMER HASSE: Well, that's all well and good. But if you once take that "shall" out of there, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 112 you're in trouble because this shall is the thing that makes this here. C05~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: Well, it makes it binding. C05~ISSIONER HASSE: Well, sure does. And it's got to be -- MS. MORGAN: I would just like to see it as a condition precedent for approval. Not that they have to build a facility because I don't, you know, I don't know what decides it. C05~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: No. I don't think we're looking for that. MS. MORGAN: But if you're going to do that, that's part, you know, like providing streets. This -- what is it, your growth management. That is a part of the impact of that growth, and elections is just not something that people usually think of as being a part of that impact. C05~ISSIONER VOLPE: As we go to mail ballots more and more, maybe that may become less of an issue. MS. MORGAN: That's true. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: You know. I mean, it's a fact of life. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 113 COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: That's an interesting point. MS. MORGAN: That's very true. If I had my choice, we would run all elections on mail ballot. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: We're moving in that direction, aren't we? COS~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: With some minor adjustments in language that we all agree on, do you think we can satisfy the issue? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Again, I'm basically here championing the cause of the Supervisor of Elections. CO~ISSIO~ER SHANAHAN: So are we. MR. MADAJEWSKI: So I would suggest that any language that could be worked out between Mary and the committee, we would re-present. But, you know, felt the issue was quite clear. MS. MORGAN: I cannot consciously, honestly stand here and say that we would never have somebody that was not from that subdivision that's there, because I know what we run up with with poll workers. CO~4ISSIONER SHANAHAN: I understand. But maybe some minor adjustment in language will make everybody OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 114 happy. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: Aha. Well, one seventeen is a good example where you would have some people outside of Windemere who would be coming into my subdivision. MS. MORGAN: Right. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: You have to be aware of those. Mark, this is an item that I have considered to be red flagged, and we're asking the committee to go back and look at this to try to bring up some -- try to bring back to us at our next workshop something that not only the committee, but staff and Ms. Morgan can agree with because we all feel like polling places are very imDortant but we still want to have some type of a mechanism to where that, that the owner of the property is, understands what they're supposed to do. So this is an item that I think that I have heard that has been red flagged, so you have a task in designing that. And it should not be a major COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: one, I don't think. COb~ISSIONER HASSE: CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I don't think so at all. I don't think so either. Thank you, Mary, for coming up. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 115 MS. ~ORGAN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. COS~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: 3.2.8.4.1. CHAIRS~N GOODNIGHT: The next item is 3.2.8.4.1. MR. MADAJEWSKI: This item specifically deals with access to projects, and I believe the language commences on page 3-35. It's entitled Access. Staff has original language in this document which deals with requirement for frontage on rights-of-way. The committee has requested that the word "legal access" be utilized. We have a direct problem with that. The requirement that lots front on a right-of-way is a basic planning and zoning function which is directly related to subdivision planning and also provides guarantees of provisions to the individual lot owners that we are not creating easements across other properties that could be blocked, that everybody has direct frontage and it, in essence, ties back to your zoning requirements which require lot frontage to create a legal lot. So anything other than direct frontage on a public or private right-of-way would be setting up to create a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 116 direct conflict with your zoning, with your zoning section. You also get into some issues on lots, and there are some that exist today and they have been a problem. I think some of them brought to the Board in the past where somebody takes a lot, splits it in two, creates an easement, puts the other half on the back. It's based on, the same point, you can't catch them all. And then you have problem with a little skinny, long driveway for emergency vehicle access, for garbage collection, police and fire service. Is this a Golden Gate Estates COMMISSIONER VOLPE: issue? MR. MADAJEWSKI: This could be a Golden Gates Estates. This is a Pine Ridge Subdivision issue, which I'm sure has been brought to the Board a couple of times where that has occurred on lots that could be subdivided and still meet the intent of the development requirements or restrictions of the subdivision. It seems to be very primary. If do you not have frontage, you do not have a legally created lot under your zoning section, and then we couldn't approve it. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: committee? MR. BUTLER: right-of-ways with easements. 117 Is there a dispute with it in It was not our intent to supplant One of the things that staff aproyes right now is commercial subdivisions where they have out parcels and and primary parcels and you write an easement over the parking lot to get access so that you can have one common entrance. It would also affect the future of multi-family tracts, condominium tracts, if you were going to plat those into different phases. They all would be projects under unified control, which is verbiage that we have added, if you read the pink sheet. There is no intent here to subdivide single family homes and provide easements instead of right-of-ways. But that language may need to be cleaned up a little bit, but our intent was to provide for easements and access for projects under unified control and the overall project would have a frontage on a public street. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: Do you have a problem with the intent, Mr. Madajewski? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 118 MR. MADAJEWSKI: No. If you read down through the current language, you'll get to the second sentence which which says: However, in the case of -- and I'm going to read straight as staff had proposed it. "Commercial or industrial subdivisions which contain or enclose parcels that are separated by common parking area or other common area, sometimes referred to as out parcels, anchor storage parcels or fee-simple footprint parcels, shall have access created through an internal access provision documented on the final subdivision plat." I can give you an example where we have enacted this already in advance of the regulation, working with the Collier Development Corporation on their Riverchase Shopping Center where we have the issue of subdivision because out parcels of land are created. They have worked with the county attorney's office, created a dedication for the main parcels, which will support their main store building, will carry the parking, the infrastructure, the water, the sewer, the drainage to support the out parcels, created a dedication and applicable restrictions and covenants which set and define OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 119 the method of access. It does not require, under those circumstances, the creation of a sixty foot or an eighty-foot right-of-way. It does provide design standards for the parking lots and things like that, but provides the avenue and the final issue closing on that will be when we bring back to you the work from Doctor Fralich that we're going to be working with these folks on, as it relates to phased condominium issue, which will be along the same lines. We are not asking on a project that consistently develop what you would classify as a driveway and parking lot system to come in with a sixty or an eighty foot right-of-way. They would come in with the proper legal ingress and egress means to serve their parcel and the remaining parcels in the uncondominium-nised portion of the project on the plat. And I feel that the language that will go in here will be very clear and direct. So we put the requirement for frontage in there, which is a zoning issue, but we have put the ability, based on the circumstances, to bring in multi-family because we have non-residential in there, but the commercial, industrial type things to deal with an OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 120 alternate means that will not create a roadway in those areas but will create a legally defined method of ingress and egress utilizing the typical parking lot. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: Did you say you had not? You've got commercial or industrial. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yeah. We have those in there. The issue of the phased condominium will come back with the work from Doctor Fralich -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Okay. So that's -- ~!R. MADAJEWSKI: -- to expand this. Because as the committee proposed for residential, they wanted to strike the words "direct frontage on," and just "create legal access to." And you don't create lots through legal access unless it's direct frontage on the right-of-way. You don't have a supported lot by getting to it from an easement across someone else's property because it now is not a lot. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I understand. So I guess that's been resolved, then. MR. MADAJEWSKI: So what I'm saying is I think we will bring the resolve back to you on that issue. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 121 CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Okay. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Is there any direction on that?_ COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: You're going to add non-commercial to that, is what you said. Right? MR. MERRILL: Non-commercial is in there. It's in there now. MR. MADAJEWSKI: It's in there now, but we will get further clarification. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: That's about all you're going to clean up, John, is that? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yes. That is what I would propose. Working with the information from Doctor Fralich, and we'll -- we're going to work with the committee and county attorney's office on that, that will resolve that issue, knowing that except under those specific multi-family, commercial, industrial type cases, that all single-family lots will have direct frontage and will not be accessed by an easement because you do not have a legal lot then. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Okay. MR. BUTLER: I would like to add just one point. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 122 There are situations where you would have tracts, such as conservation easements, that would not have direct frontage on a road without, you know, actually, bringing a sixty foot right-of-way in. Those would be separate, distinct parcels. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Those are not development tracts, and those would have to be specifically dedicated on the plat as to the purpose, intent and who owned them, and the mechanism can to be set up for access to those for someone to get in to maintain, but you couldn't develop on them. So it's a different issue. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Okay. All right. Good. The next item, then, will be 9.2.8.4.16, parentheses five. COS~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: That's on page 3-43. MR. MADAJEWSKI: We are working with the committee on this after our first workshop with Planning Commission and feel we have the basis of an equitable resolve. It got back to the same thing with the sidewalk issue that you have to have a minimum standard for streets in Collier County, and we'll be looking at putting in some better criteria to define alternatives that could be used, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 123 based on an engineering and traffic study, to reduce rights-of-ways but also having to look at the overall impacts. The basic staff position got into is that we do not object to a reduction of right-of-way, but we need to look at the impact of that reduction because as you start to squeeze the right-or-way down, then the improvements don't have room to fit within the right-of way. And probably the best example would be your water distribution system. Based on county standards, you have to have a ten-foot separation from that pipeline to a structure, meaning back of curbs, sidewalks. So you have a ten-foot green space to put that water line in. If you squeeze the right-of-way down -- you have sidewalk requirements and everything -- if you cannot now get it in the right-of-way, then it must move outside the right-of-way into a separate easement. We're not objecting to that, but when you move that facility out, then the facilities that commonly lie right behind the right-of-way -- telephone, power, cable TV -- have to move behind them, and all of a sudden you may end up, based on your yard setback, with a front yard that you OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 3396~ 124 can't plant a tree in because the whole yard is an easement. COmmISSIONER VOLPE: Don't we have a variance procedure already to allow for that? MR. MADAJEWSKI: We have a procedure that is brought to the Board for reduction. COmmISSIONER VOLPE: Right. MR. MADAJEWSKI: We have set up the criteria to allow staff to review and evaluate and bring to the Planning Commission those reductions. The same process. And we feel that we're just going to apply the current process with a little more criteria on what you would have to submit to request an exception or a reduction. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: And then in that instance, the CCPC would be the final arbitrator of those. MR. MADAJEWSKI: If the CCPC voted, as within any preliminary subdivision, and the developer felt aggrieved by that, he has a direct appeal mechanism to the Board. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGEtT: Okay. Is that fine to bring it back? MR. MORTON: Yes. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 125 CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. Then the next item will be 3.2.8.4.22, parentheses six eight. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That is on page 3-50. The issue we are talking about here: Staff has proposed, within the urban area designated by the Comprehensive Plan, that new developments install urban roadway cross-sections, which would be valley gutter, no swales. That will, one, be more esthetically pleasing; two, will reduce the right-of-way impacts because as you add swales, your right-of-way opens up -- on a typical local street, will open up anywheres fourteen to fifteen feet wide -- in width to accommodate the swale, which you now have to put in a stablized shoulder before you get into the swale. It creates the issue -- and if George Archibald was here, he would support it -- that on public streets, the cost to maintain, keep swales working, keep the drainage system going is a high maintenance cost. We are looking to establish the lowest maintenance possible for public roads and for the private associations that have to get in and take care of these things. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 126 It eliminates culverts that tend to plug. It has a lot of ramifications that we feel would best be suited -- and I worked this very carefully with Mr. Archibald's office in preparing this -- not to have them within the urban area unless they come back with a specific hardship. If we have a project that all of a sudden is in the middle of the Estates that somebody wants to do something on and the entire area that surrounds it is a swale system, then we would not be objecting to looking at that and granting consistencies in the allowance to continue with the swales. I can tell you that we have projects in the Willoughby Acres area that have built on the outlying five-acre parcels. Most of those have elected, due to the esthetics, not to put in the swale. They don't want it. They would rather have their water management system adn then discharge into the existing swale area. It's more esthetically pleasing. So we felt that it would be logical, based on the nature of Collier County, the growth that's going on, that we look to consistency in the appearance of our subdivisions. Swales don't look nice. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 127 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: But it's a drainage issue as well, though. I mean. So if Willoughby Acres or -- I mean, as an example -- they're actually putting in drainage pipes. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Well, that's going back and correcting a long-term deficiency. They're trying to get rid of the swales in Willoughby Acres. They're trying to pipe them. We're saying if the project goes from start, the design of the roadway and the design of the on-site water management system, the project is built to accommodate that, so there are no pipes. The roads are pitched, curbs collect them, take them to central junction boxes, and then they discharge to the lake system through one of two mean. Either through complete pipes or, if felt to be necessary for additional cleansing prior to the lake. I think we've got a requirement that fifty feet from the edge of pavement you can begin an open swale outside of the right-of-way, which would allow for additional cleansing if felt to be necessary. COb~ISSIONER HASSE: And that's a four to one -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: Four to one slope, which is your OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 128 current standards today for roadside swales. COMMISSIONER HASSE: CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Thank you. Mr. Butler. MR. BUTLER: I won't argue the maintenance cost. Everybody knows it costs more to maintain a swale than it does an enclosed drainage system. My swales in Pine Ridge are all backed up to this day, with all the rains we've had. The two points I'd like to make in favor of swales: I don't think we should be prohibiting them, and the two reasons are: One; water quality. South Florida Water Management District tries to encourage swales that enhance the water quality prior to dumping into a lake or into the bay. And that's a very important point. That's one of their best management principles. And the s~cond thing is that there's many of our subdivisions, the roadways are filled a foot or two above natural grade. And by mandating that the runoff of the lots go into a curb section rather than into a swale that, eighteen inches deep, you have pretty much eliminated the possibility of saving areas on a lot of existing vegetation. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, NaDles, Florida 33965 : , £. 129 In other words, all lots need to be filled so they can drain to the gutter rather than to drain to a swale that may be a foot below natural grade. I won't argue with the management. I won't argue with what -- everybody likes non-swale drainage systems. My preference is for curb sections, also. I don't think we should be prohibiting swale sections in an ordinance. MR. MADAJEWSKI: The language does not prohibit them. It puts them as a requirement to come back and prove the need through report. It does not say they are specifically prohibited. In addition, in response to the issue of draining into the swale below grade: When the engineer gets done designing his project, his road is designed to the three-day, twenty-five year storm requirement for the water management system. His house pad is designed under current county regulations can be invoked to the eighteenth -- padded a minimum of eighteen inches above the finished crown of that road. So the house and the pad are already raised under your current standards. And if somebody wants to come in and dwell out to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 130 save the trees, but you're going to have to fill that lot, just based on the water management design that the district requires, that the county has adopted as an LDR, and anything you can do to then save trees over and above that, nobody is -- nobody is here saying we want to cut down trees. We want to remove them, but the design contraints of the subdivision force it in some cases, and the swale doesn't do anything to help improve it. The swale eats up more right-of-way. Approximately, on a single family local street, twenty-five percent more right-of-way is needed to create the swale. COS~ISSIONER HASSE: you want to put a culvert. MR. MADAJEWSKI: No. COM/4ISSIONER HASSE: to figure out. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Well, in place of the swale, That's what I'm saying. Well, that's what I am trying You would need culverts under the driveways if you had a swale system. COS~ISSIONER HASSE: Yeah. MR. MADAJEWSKI: With a typical curb and gutter section -- the quickest one I can think of is drive down OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouses. ~~ 131 Kings Way through Foxfire. That is a typical urban section curb and gutter. The properties come out to the back of the curb, the street has a gentle grade differential, which picks up the drainage, moves it to the main catch basins which then convey it to the water management system. The same thing would occur both ways. MR. BUTLER: 'I would like to bring a graphic back and go back over this, if we could hold this one off for that second conversation. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. COb~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: Okay. But there is an opportunity if you come in and prove the need for swale that it is there, you can do it. MR. BUTLER: Well, basically what the verbiage says is it's prohibited. COb~ISSIONER HASSE: John? MR. MADAJEWSKI: No, not that I'm aware of. It says in route -- the area that was stricken out, or requested for striking, says: In rural areas where the use of roadside swales can be justified to the Development Services Director through a written report prepared by the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 132 applicant's professional engineer, the swales where permissible shall have side slopes. We have said the base minimum standard of Collier County in the urban area would be no swales, but in the rural areas that do exist inside that urban area. You know, the urban area goes out to a mile past 951 and incorporates an awful lot of the Estates area out there. Okay. We're saying in those areas there is the ability to present a report, fact and finding, and have the swale approved. We're again looking at the issue of minimum standards but providing options. I would not be standing here recommending to you on a new project on Airport Road that you allow swales to go in. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Urbanized prohibited; rural with permission. MR. MADAJEWSKI: language says. MR. BUTLER: But that definition of rural, then, is not in contrast to urban area of Collier County Growth Management Plan. Right. And that's exactly what our OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 133 MR. MADAJEWSKI: There are rural type areas that exist within the urban designated boundary of the Comp Plan. You go back to -- MR. BUTLER: Can we strike that, John? MR. MADAJEWSKI: I'm just saying, you know, as I say, just for clarification, it goes to a mile past 951 and you know the type of development. Those are existing rural areas, but they are classified within the urban area of the Comp Plan. So we set up the provision. I guess it's the yellow. So you can see that there are areas where this could occur where it is rural in nature, but it's designated as urban, and we have provided the ability within that to come in with the approval for a rural cross-section. COM/MISSIONER SHANAHAN: What do you think? MR. BUTLER: I would like to strike the sentence that says that they will not be permitted in the Growth Management Plan urban area, and then leave the rural area where it's subject to justification by the engineering reports. Similar to what John has in the rest of the paragraph. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 ,--- ---,,,n .......... 3 ' _ ~ "'1 134 COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: So you would like to strike out roadside swales and ditches shall not be permitted within the street rights-of-way in the urban area of the Collier County Growth Management Plan. That entire sentence? MR. BUTLER: That's what I have a problem with; yes, sir. MR. MADAJEWSKI: And the problem we have with that is that there is nothing in the Comp Plan that identifies which areas within there are potentially rural. The Estates area -- I think it's the residential, brown -- you can see has some of those areas have been left out as estates rural type areas. But you've got other corridors in there that are classified as urban within the Comp Plan. So by taking that out, you don't provide any basis You leave the Comp Plan in, it sets the to evaluate from. basis. If you're in the yellow area, yes, that's what we're saying, you put in a rural section; but if based on where you are building -- on a case-by-case basis, you go out and you can demonstrate that everybody else around me is OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples. Florida 33962 135 rural in nature, I'm not on Airport Road, I'm not in the middle of Windemere or something -- that there is a basis to look at that and come back. And if there is then a dispute, there's always the appeals process. M!q. BUTLER: Is Pine Ridge Subdivision rural? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Rural in nature, yes. MR. BUTLER: Okay. That's my only -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: That's what I'm saying. And that's smack in the middle of the urban area. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: So you've got some relief possibilities? MR. BUTLER: Yeah. With that understanding, I have no problem. I just have a problem reading where it says urban area, and then followed by rural area, which I would read to be outside the Collier County urban area. CO~4ISSIONER SHANAHAN: Well -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I'm sorry. COS~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: COF~ISSIONER VOLPE: Other than the Pine Ridge -- NO. I'm just wondering. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 136 Other than Pine Ridge -- I mean, you specifically identified that was an issue for you. Are there other areas within the urban area that you think there -- you would like to have some flexibility to make sure that you're not precluded or prohibited from having swales? MR. BUTLER: All areas where you would build a road a foot or two, and it may cost -- you know, if you're trying to do half-acre lots or one-third acre lots and you could save some vegetation, that saving that vegetation would be precluded by using a curb and gutter section. MR. MERRILL: If we have Board support, I think we can clarify that. By using the term urban area of the Growth Management Plan, I see where Gary is coming from. So we need to just clarify that because there are some rural, actually rural areas in the urban area, and that's what we need to provide for. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: I would really like to do that, Bill. I think we can do that with some minor adjustments in the language. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 137 MR. MERRILL: I agree. And we can do that. So with the support of the Board, we'll go ahead and do that. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Max. COmmISSIONER HASSE: Just to set my mind at ease. When you're talking about swales versus culverts, what are you talking about? Culverts under the drive? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Well, when you have a swale system, unless it is such a shallow system that you can build what is called a swale driveway. down and creates the -- COMMISSIONER HASSE: MR. ¥~DAJEWSKI: culvert under that. COmmISSIONER HASSE: The driveway actually comes Most of them, you can't. You can't. You have to install a Okay. MR. MADAJEWSKI: When you install the culvert under the driveway, you just increase the potential for maintenance because culverts tend to plug up. So what we're saying is: If you go with the urban section, then your plan, you have no swale, you have no culvert because your driveway just comes out and abutts the back of the curb. So there are no pipes. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 138 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Just the valley Gutter is all. There is no -- COS~ISSIONER HASSE: I realize that. But then you don't need the culvert under the drive. 5~. MADAJEWSKI: That's correct. COmmISSIONER HASSE: Well, is that an accepted way of doing it? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yes. COM~ISSIONER HASSE: Everybody so far dug swales. Speaking of my area, for instance. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That's because they are existing areas that preclude or were done prior to the actual subdivision regulations of the county. Some of those areas -- I'll give you another example -- Naples Park, which you're dealing with the SMT on earlier subdivision, that did not have a calculated, comprehensive drainage plan, and the only way they can do it is through swales. And you know the problems that the Board is facing coming up with that MST and the cost to go back and rehab that development. We're saying we shouldn't set that potential unless there's Good precedent to do it. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 139 CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: You're going to come back with something? MR. MADAJEWSKI: We'll come back. Barb Cacchione is going to provide some information for us. Last item in subdivision. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: 3.2.9.2.15. COS~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: 3.60. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That is resolved, but I will resolve it for you with some explanation from your county surveyor. We had some lengthy discussions -- and I'm sure Mr. Boggs is still here from Wilson Miller -- on the issue. Your county surveyor, of course, is required to check all plats and provide acknowledgment to the Board through the approval process that they're good and should go on the record. He has had a problem with approximately twenty percent of the plats coming in that do not close. Meaning the physical boundary does not close within statutory limits and tolerances. In speaking with Mr. Gregg (phonetic) and the other -- Mr. Boggs, we are agreeable to remove this language. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 140 We have put in an additional provision in platting which requires the surveyor of record to sign and seal the paper copies of the plat that come in for review, which is not a requirement today. There is a feeling that by not requiring that today that there are some plats prepared that the surveyor has not had a chance to see. They may have been prepared not under his supervision for the initial review, and that is causing a problem. So we're going to remove this language, but we're going to at least advise the Board that the county surveyor is going to monitor this and if once this code is adopted and the new provisions go into effect, if this degree of bad plats, if you want to call them that, plats that don't close, don't go away, then he would be proposing to come back and request some more documentation from the surveyor for the review process. So this issue is closed. CO~4ISSIONER VOLPE: Has anybody talked with the county, the Collier County Association of Surveyors to say that -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: Mr. Boggs represents -- OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 141 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: -- don't close off, fellows; they should be doing a better job? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Well, as I said, Joe is the president of the Florida state chapter of the local surveyors. He has been the point man, and I think we have got this resolved to the degree that the county surveyor will monitor this and if what we all proposed in the document still doesn't work, we will come back during an amendment cycle with more facts and reasons why we would be asking for something additional. CO~ISSIONER HASSE: Excuse me. Does that mean that we're not going to be asked for variance from people for side yards and everything else? MR. MADAJEWSKI: That won't get in-- that issue would not get into what we're talking about. COMMISSIONER HASSE: I would just like to see that happen. CO~MISSIONER SHANAHAN: Those two-inch variances? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Can't do that by the plat. That's a construction problem. MR. BOGGS: I'm Joe Boggs, and I have worked with OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 142 Rick Gregg on this. I believe that requiring the surveyors to sign and seal the plats that are in for review will help alleviate this problem. John says he would like to bring it back if it continues, and, you know, I guess I don't have a problem with that. If the problem continues, if we can go back and address some of the other things like the five-day period. If we find out that it's taking a lot longer than the five-day period, under this 3.2.7.3.1 and five, we were assured that there was only a five-day lapse in that. If that winds up being a much bigger time than five days, I guess we could readdress that issue also and not single out just one issue. COS~ISSIOMER SHANAHAN: Right. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That ends our presentation on subdivision, the main area of discussion. We have twelve more sections which I am going to try and step through; and unless there is comment, I'm just going to tell you the status and move on. CHAIRS~N GOODNIGHT: All right. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Division 3.3 is the Site OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 143 Development Plan section. C05~ISSIONER VOLPE: We're still on Article Three? MR. MADAJEWSKI: We're still in Article Three. There are twelve more divisions. Hopefully -- COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: You're going to 3.3. MR. MADAJEWSKI: 3.3 is Site Development Plans. This is your current ordinance with some -- you will see some shaded additions in there, which came from the environmental subcommittee of the ad hoc committee, which staff is in an agreement to. We have no side sheets. And unless -- if there is no questions, suggest we move on to the next one. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: (No response.) CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. Then we'll move on to the next one. COb~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: is in agreement? CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Yes. MR. MADAJEWSKI: here just quickly. Okay. Questions? No disagreement? Everybody Bill would like to add something in OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 144 CHAIrmAN GOODNIGHT: Yes. MR. MERRILL: With regard to Divisions 3.4 through the end of Article Three, I believe it's, what, 3.14, I have -- because we received that the last day of the week that we were preparing this, I have not had an opportunity to review this entirely for format and for consistency and for legal standards, but -- I do not intend to make any changes with regard to substance, but I just wanted to let you know that I haven't had the opportunity to do that at this point so I can't pass on that. But that will be done before the public hearing. COS~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: Between the next public hearing? MR. MERRILL: Yeah. COt.~ISSIONER SHANAHAM: The first public hearing. MR. MERRILL: Yes. Before October -- COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Whatever. MR. MERRILL: -- 16, or whatever. Before the Planning Commission Public Hearing, actually, which is September 26, I believe. 27th. t.~. MADAJEWSKI: Division 3.4, Explosives. That is the county's current blasting ordinance. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 145 COMMISSIONER HASSE: What page have you got there? CO~IISSIOMER SHANAHAN: 3.71. MR. MADAJEWSKI: 3-71. We have proposed no changes except to vest the authority with the Development Services Director as is all of the development regulations in this document. Division 3.5, Excavation. There are some added changes in here from the environmental subcommittee. CO5~ISSIONER HASSE: while you're at it. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Why don't you give us pages Page 3-85. COmmISSIONER HASSE: What? 5JR. MADAJEWSKI: Page 3-85. Slow me up if I'm trying to go too quickly. CO~ISSIONER HASSE: I will. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That is your current excavation ordinance. There are some changes that were proposed by the environmental subcommittee, which we have agreed to and incorporated, and you will find two yellow side sheets in the document. The first one is section 3.5.5.1.2. 3-86. That is on page And we are proposing in that section, titled OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 146 Commercial Excavations, in the second sentence after the word purpose to insert a period and remove the remaining language that deals with "or where disturbed area of excavation exceeds two acres." If you are removing material off site and if you are not classified as a development excavation, which is in the next subsection below there, .3, then you would be classified as a commercial excavation and would have to go through those requirements. This is a clean up that has been an item of discussion in administering the ordinance, and we feel with the changes we have done in development excavations, to allow for more clear input, to allow for development excavations to be handled under the site development plan process, in addition to the PUD and zoning process, that we have a very clean, clean document to deal with. So that's why we're proposing the removal of that little bit of language. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Uh-huh. COM~ISSIONER VOLPE: This doesn't impact upon the Golden Gate Estates area, that issue about where people are excavating -- OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 147 MR. MADAJEWSKI: We have specific requirements under your county right-of-way ordinance for removal of spoil banks and when those are removed, they may not go below grade. That has been a case of violations that we have had to get into where developers after getting a permit to remove spoil bank went in, dug below grade, took the bolders they didn't want, put down below grade, filled them over with a little sand and took all nice, clean sand away. That is a violation of your excavation ordinance which has shut down several projects out there who have been skirting the issue. The other yellow sheet, staff side sheet, is for Section 3.5.10.1.2 on page 3-97. On the yellow sheet you will see stricken Item Number C, the letter C, in its entirity. This is dealing with performance bonds for excavation. Your chief assistant county attorney, David Weigle, who administers the review of the bonding for us, and based on the uniformity with the bonding format that we are coming up with for the county on all development OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 148 work, has requested that this performance bond tied to a best rating and things be removed. He says it is a very difficult bond to obtain and it's difficult to review and approve, they come in a different format causes a lot of legal review time and hassle, so he is recommending taking it out. And also the issue -- the cancelable issue. All of the other bonds that I deal with for subdivision in utilities are what they classify as evergreen. They roll over~ they do not die. And the only time they die is when we have provided formal, written notification in advance that the bank is electing not to proceed forward. The language you have here today doesn't require even the first year to be done before they could pull the bond back. So that is direction from the county legal staff. Other than that we have no other changes in subdivision that haven't been reviewed with the committee. In article MR. MORTON: -- in Division 3.5. We had an opportunity to look at those, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 149 and we agree with both of those staff side sheets. CHAIRS~N GOODNIGHT: Okay. Anything else? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Not in that one. Division 3.6, starting on 3-97, Well Construction. That is your current well construction ordinance untouched, unchanged in the document. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Where is the well field protection ordinance going to be? MR. MADAJ~SKI: Well field protection. We might as well to bring it up. it. Good point. I have been involved in The well field protection ordinance is going to fall smack in the middle of your review and potential adoption of this document in October. In fact, as I am told, the final hearing on that will be the week before you have your final hearing on this code. We met last week with Bill Lorenz, his staff, and the consultant from Tampa helping to prepare that, gave them some guidance. There is to be language in that document that indicates that that ordinance will be a land development regulation co-equal and a part of the Unified Land Code. And what I recommended that you also do is put OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 150 specific language in there that would require that at the first amendment cycle available after the adoption of this code, that that ordinance be brought in in full form and shape. Now, what we could do if the timing is right -- and this is where we're going to get into the timing issue -- is you will see in Article One where we bring in ordinances by reference. We have brought in the utility standards and procedures ordinance that was going to an amendment cycle, the county right-of-way ordinance for permitting right-of-way that we felt was just too voluminous at.this time to deal with. We brought them in by reference. We brought in the EAV ordinance, which has not been -- we haven't gotten the final signed document back, but this document will basically repeal the ordinance we just voted in, and EAr is back in Article Five. If there were time, we could add in the reference section, the well field ordinance. I'm just saying I'm not sure if we would get the legal adopted number back in time for Bill to put it into OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 151 his document, since they're only a week apart. If he could, we could automatically have it in here. If not, I have asked them to set up the language so that that ordinance, even though free standing, is acting as a division of this code until it's brought into it. COS~4ISSIONER HASSE: ordinance not too long ago? MR. MADAJEWSKI: No. Didn't we just change our well We're going -- what Commissioner Volpe is referring to is the well field protection ordinance. The well permitting ordinance has not been changed since its adoption a couple years ago. COM~ISSIONER HASSE: Well, I thought -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: That I'm aware of. COS~ISSIONER HASSE: -- we had changed. We had done something with it. Okay. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Okay. Next item. MR. MADAJEWSKI: on page 3-113. There are three in here. Division 3.7, Soil Erosion Control, I'll make the little presentation and then when we get to the others, I'll just acknowledge it. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 152 On April the 9th of this year, the Board directed the Environmental Services Division to have put into this document three of their programs that are required by the Comp Plan, and I worked with Bill Lorenz and GeorGe Unanis (phonetic) and Stu Santos to basically take what is in your current Comp Plan, adopt it into this division as the interim standards. At the time Bill and his Group finish their actual program for soil erosion control, this section, 3.7, would be replaced during an amendment cycle with that final adopted plan. So basically what this section says is you have to have a soil erosion control program for your project, here are the criteria which are in your Comp Plan today, they are now part o~ the Land Development Code and will be required to be reviewed during the development process to tie this together, both in your subdivision section as to the requirement and prior submissions and in site development plan, there is a requirement for an erosion -- erosion and sediment control plan to be a new sheet within this, and this sets out the design standards for preparing that. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 153 COM~tISSIONER VOLPE: I saw someplace where you were striking the reference to soil erosion, just make it erosion, and I -- is that -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: We just clarified it. That was in there, and we when we got the final, he had a -- I think we had a site clearing plan and we included some things, and then we just added in the further terms. It should have been listed as a soil erosion control. It was just improperly typed. So that was just clean-up work. MR. MORTON: The only problem that we had on this is that these references that are made are three volumes that are about two to three inches thick and when -- really, when they decided to go with those volumes, they were kind of brought to the committee and said: Hey, we need to review all of this too. We kind -- talking with John, John felt that, you know, it wasn't as bad as we all thought it might be. When you see three volumes like that, it's kind of shocking in terms of what a soil erosion program might be. So I guess the only thing, flag I would put on this, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 154 you know, down the road we're going to see how this really works and if they're going to need additional staff personnel or what to administer it. I know in some counties I have talked to some people where they have a soil erosion program, and one guy told me it was $40,000 for an office building to do a soil erosion control program. John is saying that's not what this will do, but I guess I would just flay it for future. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. MR. MADAJEWSKI: And again the intent is that your Comp Plan contains these already in it. This is just the furtherance for the DCA to show that they have been incorporated into the Land Code. So they're there. They should be applied today. This will just formally require it. We will administer it as best as possible, and we're not looking to add staff to do that. Division 3.8 is starting on page 3-114. That is Environmental Impact Statements. There is some red shading in there which staff and committee have agreed to, and there is one pink sheet in that document for Section OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 155 3.8.3. Tuesday we worked with the committee and have removed the conflict, and I will read you what we have done. If you look at your pink sheet, the struck through language on that sheet, the title of that section is Submission and Review of EIS, Section 3.8.3. That should be back at the end of the big thick packet from Subdivision. MR. BUTLER: 3-115. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: 3-1157 MR. BUTLER: Yes. The green. the green sheet. MR. MADAJEWSKI: I just thought it would be easier instead of marking up the document right now. The language that is stricken through, the second sentence, would remain struck through. Will remain stricken. And the first sentence will be changed to read as follows: "A completed EIS, common, signed by the property owner for his or her designated agent, common, shall be submitted to the Development Services Director for approval," et cetera. You could just change OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, NaDles, 156 Other than'that, there were no other conflicts in Division 3.8. COM~ISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Madajewski, what is the coastal management boundary line? 5~. MADAJEWSKI: Where are you referring to? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I'm just -- is that -- that's not the coastal construction control line; is that right? I'm just wondering. I'm looking at 3.8.2, and we're talking about you have added all sites landward of the coastal management boundary that are ten acres or more. They're going to require? MR. MADAJEWSKI: That's US 41. That's Comp Plan language. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: It's US 417 MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yes, sir. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: All sites. So what do you do when 41 turns to the east or to the south? ~. MADAJEWSKI: I think it's a designated, defined line, sir. It's water-ward of 41. So as you turn, anything laying to the east -- the south of 41. It's from 41 out to the Gulf. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: What do you do on the East OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 157 Trail? MR. MADAJEWSKI: That's what I'm saying. It's out to the Gulf, so it would be on the south side of 41. Sea-ward of 41. That's probably the only way to only other way to look at it. Stand on 41 and look for the Gulf. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: So you have added all sites landward of the coastal boundary, then, that are ten acres. So you're going to get it on both sides. Is that right? MR. MADAJEWSKI: That's just a clarification. That line has been a line designated by the Comprehensive Plan, so it's a good tool to use. It's.a fixed point for reference. You go closer to the Gulf, the requirements for an EIS are or more severe, basically two and a half acres. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, US 41 is in the City of Naples. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Right. But this wouldn't apply to the city. This is only within the unincorporated areas of the county. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, 158 COMt4ISSIONER HASSE: South of 41, too? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Excuse me? COMMISSIONER HASSE: South of 417 MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yeah. COS~4ISSIONER HASSE: Including Marco? MS. CACCHIOME: It's this line that comes down along 41, jogs out here to the east, identified on this Comp Plan. MR. MADAJEWSKI: We have tried to tie things so that anybody who picks up a document can find exactly where he's talking about and where these regulations would affect them. MR. OLLIFF: So what you're saying is that an EIS landward of that has got to be ten acres or more, and EIS seaward of that has to be two and a half. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Two and a half. Yes. As I said, other than that, there were no other issues in conflict in the Environmental Impact Statements. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Just a second. I won't belabor this, but what's the reason for as you get out a little bit further, there are some environmentally sensitive areas that are landward of the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Maples, Florida 33962 159 coastal management boundary. Why would -- MR. MADAJEWSKI: areas. Then you're getting into the ST There is a separate section in the zoning side that deals with ST and ACST and so forth. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Okay. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Division 3.9, which commences on page 3-121. It's titled Vegetation Removal, Protection and Preservation. This is your current tree removal ordinance. This has had an extensive amount of work between staff and the committee. We have also absorbed in, so that it doesn't get lost, the exotics removal requirements in the county so that it is one unified vegetation removal issue to be administered from, and at this point in time we have no conflict with that. C05~ISSIONER VOLPE: provision or you removed 3.9.3.13.1 which required the removal of all exotics before you altered the land. It's on page 3-128. You removed it. Did you add a ~'. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 - , ' 160 There was some agreement on the 5~. MADAJ~gSKI: language. That, that is language we agreed to change. You see the language below it. The highlighted language is what was the agreeable language. There was some lengthy discussion. As you start a development -- subdivision is probably the best example -- the current ordinance says you will remove all exotics during that phase of construction approved. Under those standards, that would require the developer to even go onto the individual single-family lots and removal them. We were looking at the issue of potential mass destruction within a project. So what we have agreed to, and it's clarified in this section, is that you would be working within the right-of-way, common tracts, anything that would be developed at the initial start of the subdivision, with the individual lots to be addressed at the time that they obtained building permits; but with the requirement for an overall management plan, which would be the responsibility of property owners association, it would be part of the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 i61 records acknowledged in the restrictions and covenants, and then that plan would be used to take care to make sure, as on single-family property owners got their building permit, that they cleared the exotics on their land during the permitting process. If they didn't, it would be a legal basis for the association to go after them. It would also result in, if they got into a dispute, as an enforcement action would also create the plan for the long-term removal and keeping exotics that would revegetate out of the project once it was done. There were some good issues brought up regarding a lot of these exotics need sunlight to promulgate; so if you have a good canopy, the seeds fall, they lay dormant, they don't grow. If you go in and start to remove some of the canopies, the sunlight gets in, you actually may increase the potential for those to propogate. So we felt that it was good, logical sense to let the lots lay fallow until they are ready to develop the overall plan to protect the subdivision. Keep them honest and keep the exotics out. It would create the enforcement mechanism if the county had to step in and say you're not OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 162 doing your job that you need to do. Section or Division 3.10, Sea Turtle Protection. Page 3-132. There was just one side sheet in here. It dealt with sections 3.10.4.3. If you will, probably be easiest just to look at the green sheet on page 3-133. The last sentence. The word beach. You will put a period there and strike the rest of the committee requested language. Their agreement is there is no tie to the county building code for these kind of lights. Building code only deals with grounding and wire sizes. It does not deal with the placement of these lights or shields on lights. COS~ISSIONER HASSE: MR. MADAJEWSKI: After the word beach. Which one is that? 3.10.4.3. The very last sentence. The committee had wanted to add language "providing the proper illuminaries are not in conflict with local building codes." That language is going to be removed. We're in agreement with the added language about an emergency exit lighting. The other language, there is no finding for it. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 163 They agreed on Tuesday to remove it. There is no finding. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Uh-huh. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Division 3.11, starting on page -- on page 3-135. This is another one of the April 11th directed items from the Board, deals with Threatened Endangered Listed Species Protection. It's basically enjoins all of your current standards in the Comprehensive Plan, which are the interim standards of Collier County for species and habitat protection, and this will remain in effect until such time as county's environmental standards have been adopted and then those standards will be placed into this section. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Okay. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Divisions 3.12, Coastal Zoning Management, page 3-136, is the exact same issue, the same parameters. We are adopting Comp Plan standards as the environment standards for how you develop, what you can develop on coastal, in the coastal management zone. Basically a lot of that will be the barrier islands, and it's under the same premises as what your Comp Plan requires. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 3~96~ 164 When the comprehensive coastal zone management document Bill Lorenz is working on is finished, it will be supplanted into this section. CO~&MISSIONER VOLPE: On the endangered species. There has been some discussion. I don't know where it is now, but there has been that Bald Eagle ordinance. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That will be part of this. You will -- I think this will make some reference to it, but if you read into the purpose and intent, we didn't go into each and every specific one, but in 3.11.22 one of the items from the Comp Plan, Federal Habitat Management Guidelines for the Bald Eagle, we are still using what the example plan says. We are using the state and federal guidelines until ours are created and adopted. COMMISSIOMER VOLPE: Organization now. There has been some discussion at some point in time, and that is where there is certain Unified Land Development regulations, but there is some policies. MR. MADAJEWSKI: They will be by this. That's the reason for these insertions. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 165 They are right now, as the Comp Plan reads, coastal and environmental, coastal conservation section. They are the environment policies and procedures of Collier County. This brings it in as a Unified Land Development Code regulation until then. As the environment are now, a land development regulation by the code until the county ordinance is finished, and then that will go into this document. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: I was just thinking, as a practical matter, organization, as to whether when we put all of this together you're going to put those in this so you'll have one set of books. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Yes. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: will be moved out later on. Some of them are brought in by reference. you weren't including, like that building code. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Right. They, they were too voluminous. Didn't feel -- but any -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: are that. You know, where -- I mean they You said Land development regulations OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 166 MR. MADAJ~SKI: That's correct. And again, on any of these ordinances that come in front of the Board, it would be my suggestion, if it is deemed to be a land development regulation -- and that should be part of the Board's recommendation if they're going to approve a document like that -- that it be brought into the Land Development Code at the earliest possible amendment cycle. So it stands out there as an ordinance, that it is used, and as soon as it's available, it in, so we do have that one compendium book that has all of the rules in it. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Next item. b~R. MADAJEWSKI: We did 3.12. CO~4ISSIONER HASSE: Thirteen? MR. MADAJEWSKI: 3.13 is your current coastal construction setback line variance procedures. It starts on page 3-137. There are three pink committee sheets in there. I can tell you, and we'll just step through them so you're clear, all of those have been resolved. The committee has agreed to remove the language that they asked to do. So just so it's clear for you, Section OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 167 3.13.4.1, at the end of that, the underlying language that starts: For the purpose of this section. That whole sentence is deleted and removed. The next sheet, 3.13.4.3, the underlying sentence at the end that starts: If such activity is stricken and removed. And then the last one, 3.13.5, the language number three, which is shown to be struck through will be kept and the language below it that is underlined will be deleted. That takes it back to the original staff proposal, and the committee has agreed to that. COS~ISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. ~4adajewski, why are we still using the 1974 coastal construction document? MR. MADAJEWSKI: We are bound to use that. That is the Collier County line. CO~ISSIONER VOLPE: construction line? MR. MADAJEWSKI: back from the Gulf. CO~MISSIONER VOLPE: Right. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That line, if you are between our line and that line, then Collier County can issue a Well, isn't there a new coastal There is a new one which is further OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida ~ · 33962 168 permit, but you then have to Get permit approval from the DNR before you could actually start construction. If we issue a building permit in that area, it is conditioned upon them receiving and providing demonstration that they have Gained permit from the DNR. The '74 line is right out on the beach. COmmISSIONER VOLPE: Yeah. Well, the City of Naples has adopted the new coastal construction control line. ~y haven't we adopted the new coastal construction control line? MR. MADAJEWSKI: I believe we have. sure. I would have to ask Bill Lorenz. acknowledge that line; but for what is constructed on the beach, because the '74 line is down on the beach, we are still holding with that line. Under those conditions, even if Collier County approves it, they still have to get a permit from the DNR. We grant a variance -- and I think we have had that discussion a number of times -- under the '74 line; once the Board has approved it, the developer still can't go start. He now has to take that approval, and the State on I can't say for But we OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 169 those conditions won't even acknowledge his application until they can see that the county has agreed to let them put, let the process go forward. COM~IISSIOMER VOLPE: I understand some of that process. I just don't understand why as you come along the Gulf of Mexico and you come up to Seagate, you're looking at one coastal construction control line and then you start looking at a different construction control line all the way up to the Lee County line. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Well, I think if you look at that, and -- again, without having the maps in front of me -- that line did not move in the residential areas, the developed areas like Vanderbilt Beach, did not move back that far. But the line in the other areas, like along Pelican Bay, along Lely Barefoot Beach north of Vanderbilt Beach, moved back significantly because what you have back there is mangroves, wetland, inner bays, and they said we're going to move our line back and we really don't want to see any development in those sensitive areas until you really convince us. Whereas down in the City of Naples, it's built. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 170 It's there. is all residential. COb~ISSIONER VOLPE: that's rebuilding. MR. MADAJEWSKI: It's out to the beach. Everything behind it That's just the question of -- Possibly rebuilding. COb~ISSIONER VOLPE: I mean, that's what it is. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Then you get into further definition, which is probably outside of our scope, of rebuilding. I mean that's where the issue is. Unless there are any other comments, that takes us to the last section, Division 3.14, Vehicles on the Beach, under page 3-140. That is your current ordinance, and there are no conflicts in there. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: John, that takes into consideration the decisions we made just recently relative to vehicles on the beach as it relates to some vendors. MR. MADAJEWSKI: Golf carts, things like that. Those set the policy precedent to be able to review those, but still need to get the permits. I can tell you, this is -- this is one item, and this is as good a time to say it. We are working on a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 17 1 comprehensive B resolution which must support this document. Because if this is adeopted, it would be a B resolution, the VOB's, to do business on. And there will be and there are proposals to increase certain fees for development work that we do. This one is a typical example. Today you can file for and get a vehicle on the beach permit for nothing. There is no fee. We review it, and it takes our staff, based on having to go through the site visit, the inspections and things, and we spend upwards of two hundred, two hundred and fifty dollars to process one of these permits that we get nothing for. that. COM~4I SS IONER S HANAHAN: MR. MADAJEWSKI: So you're going to correct So we're going to be doing significant proposals for correction as early as the date of this, adopted date. COM~ISSIONER SHANAHAN: Well, you certainly should. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Is there time limitations for vehicles on the beach? MR. MADAJEWSKI: how long the permit maximum length is going to be, but There can be limiting conditions on OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 172 possibly renew it if necessary. You know, most of them are issued for construction purposes. The odd balls would be the golf carts, the type of vehicles, carts, that they typically use, and then that procedure sets itself up to be perpetuating but requires a renewal. CHAIRS~N GOODNIGHT: Okay. Is there anything else? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Unless there are any other questions, that completes Article Three. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Okay. Then we will adjourn this portion of the workshop and we will reconvene the next portion of this review LDC workshop on Monday, August the 12th at nine thirty, and we will work from nine thirty until twelve. (Conclude at twelve o'clock noon.) OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962 173 STATE OF FLORIDA COUNTY OF COLLIER I, Connie S. Potts, Notary Public and Deputy Official Court Reporter of the State of Florida, and the 20th Judicial Circuit of Florida, do hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings were taken before me, at the time and place as stated in the caption hereto, at Page 1 hereof; that I was authorized to and did attend said proceedings and report the same by computer-assisted Stenotype; that the foregoing computer-assisted typewritten transcription consisting of pages numbered 2 through 172, inclusive, is a true and accurate transcript of my Stenotype notes of the transcript of proceedings taken at said time. IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto subscribed my name this 28th day of August, 1991. Connie S. Potts, Notary Public State of Florida at Large Deputy Official Court Reporter OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Collier County Courthouse, Naples, Florida 33962