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PVAC Minutes 07/05/2000 RJuly 5, 2000 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE PUBLIC VEHICLE ADVISORY COMMITTEE July 5, 2000 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Public Vehicle Advisory Committee, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 1:00 p.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building F of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: ACTING CHAIRPERSON: Bryan L.S. Pease William J. Csogi Clifford W. Flegal, Jr. Eric Hyde NOT PRESENT: Pat Baisley Thomas Lugrin ALSO PRESENT: Michelle Arnold, Code Enforcement Director Maria Cruz, Code Enforcement Specialist Tom Palmer, Assistant County Attorney Page I 0~/2§/00 11:54 FAX 94! 403 2345 COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT ~ CLERK OF BRD ~001 COLLIER COUNTY PUBLIC V~HICLE ADVISORY CO~iTTEE july 5, 2000 l:0O PM COLLIER COUNTY GOVERNMENT C~ER 3301 E. ADMINIST~.~TiVE BUiLDiNG. THIRD FLOOR ANY PERSON W~0 DECIDES TO A~I:EAL A DECiSiON OF TNIS ~OARD WILL N~D A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS ~ERTAINiNG TH~R~v, ~ THE~FORE ~Y NEED TO ~SL~ TF~T A ~R~TIM ~CO~ OF TH~ PR~EEDINGS IS ~E, ~I~ R~O~ INCL~ T~T TESTiM~%~f ~ ~iD~E UPON ',~ICH i. ~DiTiONS OR DELETIONS: Ii. AP~ROV~ OF AGORA: III. APPROV~ OF MI~ES: April ~, 2000 IV. N~ BUSI~SS: ~thony chester Saetia d/b/a ~ecutive Transportation, i~c. Reques~ for approval ~o oDdrata a c~rter Se?~ice J~es J. Jesella Re~st ~or approval to oDerage ~ ~ ~ Se~ice Kelly A. Martin d/b/a ~i= Robert L. Scul!~ dlbla Vii. DiSCUSSiON: VIII. ~T ~ING DATE: Oc~ ~ wo~oP July 5, 2000 ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: order. Roll call, please. MS. CRUZ: Good afternoon. code enforcement investigator. I'd like to call the meeting to For the record, Maria Cruz, Motion carried, if everyone says Let the record show that Pat Baisley called in and advised that she was going to be absent this meeting; she was going to be out. Clifford Flegal? MR. FLEGAL: Present. MS. CRUZ: Tom Lugrin? (No response.) MS. CRUZ: Bryan Pease? MR. PEASE: Here. MS. CRUZ: William Csogi? MR. CSOGI: Here. MS. ARNOLD: And we have a new member today. He's -- for the record, Michelle Arnold. Eric Hyde, we'd like to welcome you to the PVAC committee. MR. HYDE: Thank you. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do we have any additions or deletions to the agenda? MS. CRUZ: None from us. None from staff. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. Do we have an approval of the agenda? MR. FLEGAL: I make a motion we approve the agenda as submitted. MR. CSOGI: I'll second it. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm sorry, minutes. Approval of aye. (Unanimous vote of ayes.) New business? MR. FLEGAL: Minutes. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: the minutes. Do we have an approval of the minutes? MR. CSOGI: I've got a change. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MR. CSOGI: Page 37, under my name. It's going to be the second to last quote. The bottom of the paragraph it says that ASC certification. It should be ASE, apple, Sam, Edward. Page 2 July 5, 2000 ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do we have a motion to accept the amended minutes? MR. CSOGI: I'll make the motion we accept the amended minutes -- MR. FLEGAL: Second. MR. CSOGI: -- if there's no other changes. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: All those in favor? (Unanimous vote of ayes.} ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion carried. New business. Mr. Anthony Chester $antia. Is that how you pronounce that? Okay, could you please come forward to be sworn in. (Speaker was duly sworn.} ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Seeking approval for a charter service, doing business as Executive Transportation, Incorporated. MR. SANTIA: Correct. MS. CRUZ: Mr. Chairman, if I may, all these three applications that are going to be presented today before this board, the criminal history background check has not been returned yet. And to the best of my knowledge, I believe that's the only thing that's pending on these applications. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Thank you. MR. FLEGAL: Sir, are you doing business in Lee County as Executive Transport, Inc.? MR. SANTIA: Yes, sir, I am. MR. FLEGAL: The registration that you submitted on the Lincoln ran out June 30th. I assume you renewed it in Lee County? MR. MR. '987 MR. SANTIA: Yes, sir, I did. FLEGAL: Okay. Executive has been incorporated since SANTIA: Yes, sir. MR. FLEGAL: Do you -- you conduct your business as Executive Transportation, Inc.? MR. SANTIA: Yes, sir, I do. MR. FLEGAL: Is that how you pay your bills and such? I'm curious, because you have a credit report that says that you have no credit information. So I'm just wondering -- MR. SANTIA: Yes, I do. As far as company business goes, it Page 3 July 5, 2000 gets paid in company checks. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. Curious. No credit history. No credit history on a company that's been in business since '98? And here in Collier County, your business will be over on Pelican Bay Boulevard? MR. SANTIA: Yes, sir. MR. FLEGAL: Very good. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's where you'll retain your records? MR. SANTIA: Yes, sir-- actually, my records will be kept in Lee County. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I believe the ordinance requires the records be kept in Collier County, correct? MR. PALMER: The records that pertain to business in Collier County. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Correct, correct. So anything you do in Collier County, the records need to be retained at the address you have -- MR. SANTIA: Okay. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- listed. MR. PALMER: That's just in case on the off chance that we might need access to, say, audit or review those records. Facilities our access to them, that's the only purpose. MR. HYDE: This vehicle will be held or actually used in both Lee and Collier County, correct? MR. SANTIA: Yes, sir. MR. HYDE: But its main housing, or-- if you want to call it that, or place where it's kept is in Lee County? MR. SANTIA: Lee County. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: There will be no vehicles stored at this address, correct? MR. SANTIA: No, sir. MR. FLEGAL: You will have a Collier County phone number, or some kind of number here in Collier County, or -- MR. SANTIA: If that's required, yes. MR. FLEGAL: He's got to have a phone number here that people can access. MR. PALMER: Yes, it has to have -- if your present number can be accessed. Folks in Collier County who want to utilize your service ought be able to look in the phone book and have a Page 4 July 5, 2000 number to call you to contact you for business. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Now, that can be call forwarded to your Fort Myers office. MR. SANTIA: Okay. MR. PALMER: And it may even be that number. If in fact somebody can dial you up from Collier County to get business. MR. SANTIA: Well, they can dial me up now from Collier County. MR. PALMER: Fine. Doesn't sound like-- ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: It doesn't have to be a local -- MR. PALMER: No. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- extension or -- MR. PALMER: No, as long as he's accessible by phone. MR. CSOGI: On your insurance liability, you've got a certificate holder on the bottom is the code enforcement. That should be the Board of County Commissioners. That just needs to be changed. I don't think that's a big deal. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: What page is the -- Maria, is the phone mentioned in the ordinance; do you know? MS. CRUZ: No, sir. I don't have the ordinance in front of me. Give me a second, I'll find it. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I just want to get clarification there. MR. FLEGAL: Page 25. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Thank you. MR. FLEGAL: Maintain a central location of business in Collier County, at which place he shall provide a properly listed telephone number to receive calls. I would think if you have a central location in Collier County, you would have a Collier County telephone. Why would you have a central location in Collier County and have a Philadelphia phone number? MR. PALMER: Well, you wouldn't, of course. But the idea is if in fact he's not going to be sort of located in Collier County, people are not going to be inclined to want him to have to drive all the way down to Lee County to make an appointment. So it's a business judgment as to how accessible and prompt he'll be in responding to a call from Collier County. Obviously if he's going to -- unless it's a prearranged appointment, people are not going to want to call up and wait an Page 5 July 5, 2000 hour for a car to come down from Lee -- MR. FLEGAL: Calls to Lee County are long distance. I mean, if I'm looking for a taxicab, I'm not going to pay money long distance to call one. MR. PALMER: Probably not. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, Mr. Palmer, it does say continuously maintain a central place of business -- MR. SANTIA: It's not a taxi service. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- in Collier County -- MR. SANTIA: And I don't operate as a taxi service. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah, but I mean even a charter service, I mean, why would I want to spend money long distance when I can get one locally? I think it's a disadvantage -- MR. SANTIA: Oh, I understand-- MR. FLEGAL: -- to you -- MR. SANTIA: -- it, too. It may be a disadvantage to me, but ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Mr. Palmer, it says maintain a central place of business in Collier County, at which place he shall provide a properly listed telephone number. Doesn't that mean a local number which he can call forward to Fort Myers, if he so chooses? MR. PALMER: I think that's contemplated, that there will be at least -- you call a number, and without -- seamless, it will respond to a person who can respond to the call for business purposes. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Seems the implication is to have a local phone number at that place, as long as he -- it's a business line, as long as -- MR. PALMER: And in fact it's automatically forwarded perhaps to a location in Lee County. We've had a lot of discussion about what we mean by central place of business. Essentially a repository for records. We've written you several memos about to what extent local government can insist upon requiring certain physical facilities within the county without being exorbitantly high an expense. Remember the case in Chicago where Chicago tried to do that essentially to run certain cab businesses out of Chicago by raising the expense bar so high that they couldn't compete. But actually, that means people have been -- go look in the Collier Page 6 July 5, 2000 County directory, be able to call you, get immediate access to work out an appointment or come down, as well as having your records, Collier County business records, in Collier County, in the off chance that Maria or somebody would need to look at them. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any further questions? MR. HYDE: Is 5801 Pelican Bay Boulevard zoned commercial, or is it a residence? MR. SANTIA: It's -- MR. HYDE: Is it a home -- is it somebody's home? MR. SANTIA: It's commercial, I believe. MR. CSOGI: But you're not keeping cars there, though. MR. SANTIA.' No, sir. MR. CSOGI: So it's just a home base business. MR. HYDE: Everything else is out of Fort Myers or Estero. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Any other questions? MR. CSOGI: Just pending the criminal background check. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do we have a motion? MR. CSOGI.' I'll make a motion we approve, pending the criminal background. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Second? MR. HYDE: Second. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: All those in favor? (Unanimous vote of ayes.) ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion carried. Thank you very much. MR. SANTIA: Thank you, gentlemen, very much. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Good luck. Next item on new business is Mr. James J. Jesella. Is that how you pronounce that? MR. JESELLA: Yes. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: sworn in. (Speaker was duly sworn.) ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: to operate a charter service? MR. JESELLA.- Yes, sir. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: MR. FLEGAL: MR. JESELLA: license to use it. Could you come forward to be And you're requesting approval Okay. Do you have a vehicle, sir? No. I have no reason to get one until I have a Page 7 July 5, 2000 MR. FLEGAL: You plan to do business as what, A Able, Inc., is that -- MR. JESELLA: No, I requested a couple of things to the state, and they've been rejected because they're similar to other people, so I put a last request in was that -- on the phone they approved it, was going to be AVIP Coach. MR. FLEGAL: Is this going to be a corporation, or are you -- MR. JESELLA: Yes, it is. Subchapter S. I had A Able before -- I owned a tree service in town here -- and I let it expire. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: So he'll need a new occupational license in that name? Or can he get this changed? MR. PALMER: The occupational license should be in the name of the -- formal name of the corporation, not in a d/b/a. I don't believe they issue occupational licenses to d/b/a's. But if you have a permanent location where you're going to actually have a situs in Collier County, you will need a Collier County occupational license for that. And what he should do is get the doing business as; it will be this corporate name doing business as the name he just mentioned, d/b/a. MR. CSOGI: So what is your corporate name that they approved? MR. JESELLA: AVIP Coach. MR. CSOGI: So that needs -- that change needs to be reflected on the application. MR. PALMER: Well, is that the name of the corporation, or is that the doing business as? That's the doing business as, isn't it? MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. JESELLA: Well, it's the name of the corporation. CSOGI: That's the name of the corporation. FLEGAL: AVIP Coach, Inc., is that what you're getting? JESELLA: Correct. FLEGAL: Okay. MR. CSOGI: AVIP Coach, or just AVIP? ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: AVIP Coach. MR. JESELLA: AVIP Coach, Inc. I had to put the Coach on. There was no AVIP, but it was similar to VIP, so I had to change things. MR. FLEGAL: I suspect you probably do business as AVIP Coach, Inc., doing business as AVIP Coach, so he could leave the Page 8 July 5, 2000 Inc. off. It sounds a little better. I suspect that's what he would do, So you need some corporate papers on all that. MR. JESELLA: Yes, sir. MR. HYDE: Are you personally going to be operating the vehicle, or are you going to have drivers to do it, or-- MR. JESELLA: Well, initially I plan on doing most of the driving myself, yes. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: What kind of charter vehicle are you looking to do? MR. JESELLA: Limousine. I presently drive for a couple of people in town here, and I wanted to see if I would like it. I do. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do you have any other questions for the applicant? If not, do we have a motion? MR. FLEGAL: I would make a motion that he be approved, subject to getting the required corporate papers, the license, vehicle registration, criminal background check. If all that meets the requirements, which staff can check very easily, I don't have a problem. MR. CSOGI: I think there should also be the name change on the occupational license. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Uh-huh. MR. CSOGI: I'll second that motion, if there's no further -- ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: All those in favor? (Unanimous vote of ayes.) ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion carries. Good luck. MR. JESELLA: Thank you, gentlemen. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: You can consult after the meeting with her on the additional information. MR. FLEGAL: Maria will tell you what you have to do. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Next new business and our last new business is Kelly Martin. Is Kelly here? (Speaker was duly sworn.) ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Requesting approval to operate a charter service. MR. FLEGAL: You're operating as a sole proprietorship, or a corporation? Or tell me what you're doing. MS. MARTIN: Not at this time. Just sole. Page 9 July 5, 2000 MR. FLEGAL: Just sole proprietorship. MR. CSOGI: I see the registration has two names on it. Is Ronald Michaels part of the sole proprietorship business? MS. MARTIN: No, he is part owner on the lease of the vehicle. MR. CSOGI: Okay. Registration has both the names on it, though. MR. FLEGAL: We have a requirement when there's somebody that "X" percent -- I'm trying to remember what it is. 10 percent? MR. PALMER: I think that may be focused on management. Is this other person just the co-tenant or co-lessee of the vehicle, is responsible for the obligations to the person that's leasing the vehicle to you? This other individual? MS. MARTIN: He's co -- MR. MICHAELS: Co-buyer. MS. MARTIN: Co-buyer. MR. PALMER: Oh, it's a-- MS. MARTIN: Co-husband. MR. PALMER: -- purchase agreement? Is it a purchase agreement installment contract? MS. MARTIN: Yes. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Of the vehicle only? Is there a lease agreement between -- THE COURT REPORTER: Would you like me to swear him in? ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm sorry, that's true. You need to be sworn in, sir. Thank you for reminding me of that. MR. CSOGI: The reason I brought it up is for liability. (Speaker was duly sworn.) MR. MICHAELS: To clarify, there's no lease involved. That cuts us to the chase. We're buying the van and it's in both our names. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: But the business is in her name only? MR. MICHAELS: Yes. MR. PALMER: The co-owner of a vehicle, by Florida law, is responsible if it has an accident. That's a matter of Florida statute. But I'm not sure that's a particular concern of ours. But it may be a business decision on their part. Page 10 July 5, 2000 MR. CSOGI: But he's also liable, because he's co-owner of the vehicle, if a passenger were to sue the company. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah, but how is the county protected, since he's -- MR. PALMER: Well, they -- of course they have to have the requisite insurance in any event. Whether or not he'd be responsible for something that happened in the cab is one thing. But if the accident should -- the vehicle should hit somebody, a pedestrian or another car, he would be responsible automatically by law as a co-purchaser of the vehicle. But I'm sure that the installment contract vendor probably has insurance requirements, as a part of your transition, so that if something should happen to the vehicle before title passes, he's protected. But we have our own independent insurance requirement that protects the public in the event that something should happen, which every person that operates a business in Collier County must obtain in any case. MR. FLEGAL: Okay, we have a lease from Kelly Martin, Eagle Tram, for the vehicle. So, I mean, the vehicle is registered to Mr. Michaels or Ms. Martin. So, I mean, I'm a little -- so since she's leased the vehicle to Eagle Tram, he can lease it to the ABC Pie Company and, I mean, we got this tag on the back that it's -- permit issued by the county saying it's a charter vehicle, and yet he's gone off and leased it to somebody else. I'm a little gun shy about doing that. MR. PALMER: Well, we'll have to stipulate that that won't happen. And "or"' really is for title transfer purposes. When it says "or" in the title, either one of them could execute the title without the signature of the other person. MR. FLEGAL: Right. You know, that kind of bothers me. MR. PALMER: Well, we could get a stipulation that there would be none of that while this vehicle is operating a business of this nature in Collier County. Does your vendor, installment vendor, understand the use of this vehicle prior to the time that you actually acquire title to the vehicle on the installment purchase agreement? As I -- MR. MICHAELS: Yes. MR. PALMER: -- understand it, it's not totally paid for. MR. MICHAELS: They understand, because we had to submit insurance reflecting the insurance of the nature to do Page 11 July 5, 2000 business MR. MR. MR. MR. as well. with the van. PALMER: In this activity? MICHAELS: Yes. PALMER: Yes. MICHAELS: And they have that same insurance binder They understand what's going on. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: That insurance company is well known for commercial operators, so -- MR. FLEGAL: Now, is the van currently leased to somebody? MR. MICHAELS: No. MS. MARTIN: I had to sign the lease agreement for myself to lease it to the business. MR. FLEGAL: No, but-- MS. MARTIN: Is that -- other than that, no. MR. FLEGAL: Okay, your experience statement says that you've been employed by A Action Taxi and the use of her van since April. That's why I'm asking. Is the van leased to somebody else, or are you doing something else with the van right now? MR. MICHAELS: No, that was terminated. MS. MARTIN: No, that was terminated so that we could do it on our own, MR. MICHAELS: June 4th. MR. FLEGAL: Tom, what do we need from them that would protect us, since the vehicle was leased -- MR. PALMER: Well, I have a little bit of a problem here. You're both installment purchasers of a vehicle. The title hasn't passed. And you say you're a sole proprietorship. But this vehicle that's under installment contract, you've leased it to yourself? I don't know that the law is going to recognize that lease in that unless you're a separate entity like a corporation where it has a legal identity apart from you. I don't know that leasing a vehicle yourself, the law is going to recognize that. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, since it's -- since the registration is one or the other, I would think any kind of lease would have to be from both of them so that -- since we both can own it, one can sell it out from under the other, I would think any kind of a lease would have to be by both of them. MR. PALMER: Yes. And that's even assuming that the lease that's been described even is -- would be recognized by the law. Page 12 July 5, 2000 The only person that would enforce the lease is the person that's on both sides of the deal and would say, well, I'm not going to enforce the lease, I'm just going to do my thing. Because there are not two parties in interest, it's the same person. MR. CSOGI: It sounds like she might have just did that for tax purposes. Did your accountant tell you to do that, or did you do that for MS. MARTIN: To fill out the lease? MR. CSOGI: To lease the vehicle back to yourself. MS. CRUZ: In the past -- if I may add, in the past that's the way that we've done it. The individual itself owns the company, but that's the way that we've done it all the time where the individual will lease the vehicle to the company -- MR. PALMER: Yes, but you -- MS. CRUZ: -- even though the same individual -- MR. PALMER: Well, you use the word -- MS. CRUZ: -- is the owner of both entities. MR. PALMER: -- company. Company means corporation. MS. CRUZ: Company? MR. PALMER: The sole proprietor is not a company. MR. FLEGAL: Right. MR. PALMER: And I don't understand what is going on here. We need it understood that so long as this vehicle is going to be used for this thing, the installment contract and all interests are not going to be conveyed out to some third party by either of the co-purchasers. I think that's understood. Because I think if that happened, it would automatically void any sort of permission that's been granted by Collier County. MR. MICHAELS: Gentlemen, we could certainly operate without the vehicle lease under a sole proprietorship. We were told that we had to fill out the lease page in order to do this. We're not a corporation, and we can just delete this lease paper as a sole proprietorship -- MR. FI. EGAL: Okay, I-- MR. MICHAELS: -- to continue in operation. MR. PALMER: Well, I'm not saying that's what I'd do. I'm saying that as I sit here today, I do not understand the legal efficacy of this lease. MS. ARNOLD: Mr. Chairman? Page 13 July 5, 2000 MR. FLEGAL: Let's just assume you don't have this page, okay? Even without this page, what I'm concerned about is the registration of the vehicle. MS. ARNOLD: Mr. Chairman, can we take a two-minute recess to discuss this with the legal counsel? Is that possible? ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I have no objection to that. Anybody else? Take a two-minute recess. (Recess.) ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Are we ready to reconvene? MS. ARNOLD: Yes, we are. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Call the meeting back to order. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Where do we go from here? MR. PALMER: We are not going to concern ourselves with the lease, because that's really not our problem. Our problem is this question about the ability to convey title away. So what we'd like to do is have both of these parties be signatories to that lease. MR. FLEGAL: To the -- MR. PALMER: To the lease agreement. So that the title will not be considered to be A or B, but A and B. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: So you think both names on the lease to their own -- to her company; I guess it's her company as sole proprietor-- MS. ARNOLD: Yes. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- is what you're -- MR. PALMER: Well, right. The fact of the matter is, we want to have him agree that he is not going to transfer any -- make an attempt to transfer title away, so long as these people are licensed by Collier County. MR. FLEGAL: Okay, let me ask you this question: Just because they sign a lease to a quote, unquote sole proprietorship company really doesn't mean anything when the title is still or -- MR. PALMER: Actually, what -- MR. FLEGAL: -- she still has the right. MR. PALMER: Actually, they could stipulate to this board that they're not going to do that, and make a binding promise to the board as a condition of this grant of permission, right here and now. Page 14 July 5, 2000 MR. FLEGAL: Okay. MR. PALMER: That would be a condition of the grant. Now, they might sell the vehicle sometime along the line, but they're going to have to replace another vehicle. Of course, if they sell the vehicle, then there is no vehicle to which this permission attaches, and effectively would dissolve the permission being granted today. Either they have to have this vehicle or something to take its place. MR. FLEGAL: I guess where I'm concerned, and maybe overly, is I have a vehicle which either one of two people can do anything they want with. MR. PALMER: Exactly. MR. FLEGAL: And that bothers me, because, you know, somebody gets up on the wrong side of the street one day and says I think I'm going to take the vehicle and go north to Alaska, and Collier County's sitting there saying well, we've got a permit on the vehicle and it's running around Philadelphia toting people, and all of a sudden Collier County's in trouble. I just have a problem with it. MR. PALMER: We could do two things: We could get a promise from both of them that that is not going to happen; and should it happen, that she will notify this board immediately. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. Would it be easier, simpler, whichever the word is -- since we're talking about a registration of a vehicle, registrations can be changed real simple -- if the "or" was Ronald Michaels and Kelly Martin? I wouldn't have a problem, because then it would take two signatures to sell the vehicle. MR. PALMER: Or otherwise encumber the title to the vehicle. MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: of them, can get rid of the vehicle, and that's -- MR. PALMER: Without the other person's permission. But if the "or" Right. That's correct. As the way it is, Michaels or Martin, either one Because then MR. FLEGAL: And that's what bothers me. was changed to "and", it would take them both. MR. PALMER: That's correct. MR. FLEGAL: And then I'd feel a lot better. they need each other. Page t5 July 5, 2000 ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: If she was first lienholder on the title, would that solve that? MR. FLEGAL: Well, since they lease the vehicle from somebody, they're first. Whoever they're buying the vehicle from is first, so they're going to have the -- MR. PALMER: And for as long as -- MR. FLEGAL: -- vehicle. MR. PALMER: For so long as that loan is outstanding -- MR. FLEGAL: They'll be first. MR. PALMER: -- they are going to have a priority claim to the vehicle, in any event. MR. FLEGAL: Right. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MR. PALMER: And probably would be a severe breach of their agreement with their contract seller, too. MR. FLEGAL: You see what we're kind of concerned about? MR. MICHAELS: Yes. MS. MARTIN: Uh-huh. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, it's -- not saying it's going to happen but, you know, the weather changes and so do deals. So, I mean, you know. MR. MICHAELS: We'll get the registration changed to read "and" to comply. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, I think I would feel better if it read "and" rather than "or". That way I know you two involved, whether you're involved in this business or not, in aiding her by getting the vehicle, you're going to stay together on the deal. MS. MARTIN: I actually would rather change it myself. MR. FLEGAL: I mean-- ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's free legal counsel. MS. MARTIN: No, just for all parties to understand. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Hope it gets paid for quickly. MS. MARTIN: It saves everybody. MR. FLEGAL: Sorry about that, Ron. MR. MICHAELS: Thanks, guys. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do we have a motion from anyone on this? MR. FLEGAL: I have a motion we approve them with the stipulation that you get the registration changed to read, you know, Ronald Lynn Michaels and Kelly Martin, okay? I think the Page 16 July 5, 2000 board would -- and the county would be protected under that. And pending the criminal background check, I don't see anything else that's lacking. I would move to approve it based on those two conditions. Is that enough, Tom? MR. PALMER: Yes, that's fine. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do we have a second? MR. HYDE: Second. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: All those in favor? (Unanimous vote of ayes.) ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Good luck. MS. MARTIN: Thanks. MR. MICHAELS: Thank you. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Old business. Robert Scallan, doing business as Hummeride. Is Mr. Scallan here? MR. FLEGAL: I don't see him. MS. CRUZ: Mr. Scallan is not here. I do have a letter that I would like to give a copy to all the board members from Pat Baisley, the chairman of the board, indicating her opinion on this matter. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Just to review what we have, Mr. Palmer, we counselled this gentleman not to put advertising on his vehicle as a for-hire vehicle. He isn't driving the vehicle with any advertising on it when he has a customer. He's setting up static displays with advertising on the vehicle. So that's the question of clarification. Does that meet the ordinance criteria? MR. PALMER: I can't give you an answer off the top of my head. I can look at the ordinance text. MR. FLEGAL: Well, the ordinance says you can't advertise except for the little name on the back. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: It's on Page 19 and 20. Do you have an ordinance? MR. PALMER: No, I don't have it with me. MR. FLEGAL: In the newspaper-- I'm the one that started all this. MR. PALMER: at times? ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: He's using it as a static advertising display for businesses. MR. PALMER: Not his own. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Not his own. Is he wanting to use this as like a static sign Page 17 July 5, 2000 MR. FLEGAL: A big sign on the side. MR. CSOGI: We told him. MR. FLEGAL: We were very specific when he first applied, no advertising. He said, "1 understand and I will not do it." There's his vehicle with two different types of advertising. It's in the paper and on television. That to me is a violation. Sorry. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: The interesting aspect of this is I was driving on Pine Ridge Road last week and saw a white stretch; and I don't remember the place of business, but it was before you get to the interstate, if you were headed east, around where the filling stations are at Exit 16. There was a limo that had a magnetic sign on the side of the vehicle. And I assumed, I couldn't read it from there, but I'm assuming it said, you know, limousine available for hire, or something, and a phone number. MR. FLEGAL.' Not allowed. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: And so what follows suit then is if it's a static display, is advertising acceptable? MR. FLEGAL: No. MR. PALMER: My preliminary opinion is no. And it may well be that -- is this -- that in Collier County, apart from the PVAC ordinance, that this could be an independent violation of the sign ordinance. My experience with sign ordinance has been, over the years, and I'm not an expert in our ordinance, that normally these kinds of signs are expressly prohibited by most local government sign ordinances. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Staff have a comment? MS. ARNOLD: Yes, I was going to comment for the board that I couldn't clearly read what was being advertised on that vehicle in that article, but it wouldn't -- but it appears to me that it's more of a violation, or if it is a violation, it's a violation of the sign code, rather than this particular ordinance section, because it looked as though they were advertising businesses other than their own. And this ordinance refers to the advertisement of that specific business, that it's limited to that rear sign. And so we probably have to look into it as a violation of the sign code rather than -- MR. FLEGAL: I disagree. If you go to page -- MR. PALMER: However, the intent of the ordinance is that, you know, sometimes you go into cities and you will see like a big kind of like a two feet by four-foot piece behind the cab that Page 18 July 5, 2000 sort of sits up. It says "Eat at Joe's Diner." Those are the kind of things that the ordinance is to prohibit. It's supposed to be a vehicle --just a vehicle and not as an advertising -- a moving advertisement of somebody else's business. MR. FLEGAL: Okay, the ordinance is real specific, I'm sorry. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: What page are you on? MR. FLEGAL: Page 15, Item D. Charter service is what this is. "Vehicles shall not be painted in the same color scheme as any permitted taxicab. Sedan and limousine charter service type vehicles may display the certificate holder's trade name on only the front license plate of the vehicle, and/or in letters not to exceed three inches in height and affixed to an area exclusively limited to the storage of baggage behind the rearmost seat. No lettering is permitted on any glass. Charter service vehicles shall not place any type or form of light device on the roof or have such" -- I mean, the signs are real specific. Your name on a license plate or three inches on the back end. Not on the side, not on a door, not on a glass. English is English. I don't care where you come from. MR. PALMER: And I -- MR. FLEGAL: Sorry. MR. PALMER: -- do not believe that there's any contemplation that that prohibition applies only when this vehicle is being used as a business. In other words, it's not a claim as exemption to say well, I'm using my vehicle not as a cab or a limousine, I'm using it as a static sign, that that exemption is not contemplated in there. And it's also, as Michelle said, an independent violation of the sign code. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. This vehicle, in the paper and on television, he pulled up onto Fifth Avenue, was taking people out, because he had toted them down there from some corporation, had their signs all over the side. That's a charter. Give me a break. You don't say today I'm not going to operate, and I still have my permit, I'm just going to ride the people from IBM around town and put their signs on it -- ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Did he move people? MR. FLEGAL: -- that won't work. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Did he move people? MR. FLEGAL: Yes. Read the article. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I read it. I didn't see that. Page19 July 5, 2000 MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: understand and I won't do that." he's doing it. Sorry, folks. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: MS. CRUZ: No, sir. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: MR. FLEGAL: And they're getting out of the vehicle. Sorry. MR. PALMER: So they're actually -- they don't even have the static sign allegation. They're actually using -- these are on the side when he's operating it as a charter service. MR. FLEGAL: He's a charter service, and put their signs on the side and toted them down to Fifth Avenue as advertisement. MR. CSOGI: On Page 22, first paragraph, it says any change to approve color scheme, monogram or insignia must be approved by the PVAC. To me that would be a change, since he didn't ask for it in the first place. MR. FLEGAL: Well, when we were in the minutes, if you go back, we specifically told him no signs. Because he said he was going to advertise. He told us on the front end, the purpose I'm buying this vehicle for is to put advertising on the side and ride my customers around town. And he was -- And we said -- -- expressly told that he could not do that. We said you cannot do that. He said, "1 We gave him a permit. Now Was that in the last meeting? It was the one before? MR. FLEGAL: It's from the -- in our February 9th meeting. And that's when we talked to him. And then at our April 4th meeting we approved his request under the same conditions. I looked them all up. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I definitely believe he's trying to skirt the issue. The question is do we go from both directions from this council committee, as well as the sign enforcement? MR. FLEGAL: Well, that's code enforcement's problem. But from our permit standpoint, as far as I'm concerned, I want his permit yanked. I got the newspaper and the television to back me up. I want to know how we can turn it down. Sorry. I mean, all these other people are getting permits in good faith and they understand. If you come before me and tell me you're going to follow the rules and then you don't, I've got no sympathy for you. MR. PALMER: Well, it's a policy question. We could handle Page 20 July 5, 2000 it either way. We could do it -- if Michelle thinks that the bullet is more direct from code enforcement, we could do it that way, or we could give them effectively an order to show cause from this board why they're -- MR. FLEGAL: Well, the code enforcement can't take his permit away. And under our ordinance, we have that right if you violate the ordinance. And he's in violation of the ordinance. MR. PALMER: Well, you could instruct staff to effectively issue him an order to show cause why his certificate should not be revoked. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, and I've read our Chairman's letter, who -- basically I guess what he's saying, well, it was part of a promotion for a grand opening of a business. Immaterial. MR. PALMER: Well, that-- MR. FLEGAL: No advertisement's no advertisement. MR. PALMER: Is this a one -- is he saying this was just a one-time deal, or-- MR. FLEGAL: Doesn't make any difference. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: No, I think he's definitely pursuing that as a part of his business plan, is my impression. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, the ordinance doesn't say what I just read, exempt if you're going to do it one time. MR. PALMER: No, it doesn't, but -- MR. FLEGAL: So whether he did it as a promotion is immaterial. He did it. Guilty. MR. PALMER: Right. But then it would depend -- then it would be an exercise in judgment as to what the penalty would be for a one-time transgression, as opposed to something that's a continuing activity that's in violation of the ordinance. That's a matter of what the board would decide after they hear the facts. MR. FLEGAL: I have a problem with somebody that stands there and lies to me. I'm sorry. MR. CSOGI: Well, I think there's a process that we need to go through also, if there is a violation. And this is not the process. MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. I mean, I think we have to have a hearing and all that -- MR. CSOGI: Right. MR. FLEGAL: -- and that's what I want. MR. CSOGI: Right. Page 21 July 5, 2000 MR. FLEGAL: I mean, I've got enough information. MR. PALMER: Okay, I'll get with Maria or Michelle about getting the requisite notice to the individual. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, it's already been -- he did this back in May. I mean, we're at May, June, July. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Standard procedure has been a certified letter. Is that what we've done? Certified letter, notice of violation? MS. ARNOLD: That's correct. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: And then they have so many days to respond. And then if they do not respond -- MS. CRUZ: Then a notice of hearing needs to be sent out and scheduled before the board. MR. FLEGAL: And I don't want to wait three months. I mean, you know, he can just continue to do it and get away with it. He may be doing it now, for all I know, and it just happened not to get in the paper. MR. PALMER: Well, I'll -- let me -- I'll look at the ordinance. And there may be, I'm not saying there is, but there may be an authorization in there to effectively give a cease and desist order, like a stop work order, in the building context, rather than to let this go on and on until such time as he would either attend a hearing or not attend a hearing. Quite certain the ordinance allows a hearing in absence of the respondent being physically present, in the absence of a reasonable continuance request. But I'll get with staff and we'll get going on this. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I don't think anybody on this board would have a problem with having a hearing before our next meeting -- MR. FLEGAL: No. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- in conjunction with the workshop after or something. MS. ARNOLD: Okay. MR. CSOGI: From what it says, he's got 20 days after he receives the letter. So that's not -- ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: and -- MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: MR. FLEGAL: Are you comfortable with staff -- legal? I just want to do something about it. I have a Page 22 July 5, 2000 real problem with people who come up and swear before me and then lie. It just doesn't work with me, I'm sorry. MR. PALMER: You don't take that as a change of heart. You believe that he actually had -- he was actually being evasive with the board, rather than having a change of heart. MR. FLEGAL: Well, I mean, when you're told one month that you can't do it and you agree, and then -- MR. PALMER: Then you turn around -- MR. FLEGAL: -- you come back next month and get your permit and then the next month you slap signs on your vehicle -- ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: We had the discussion twice with it" at-- him. MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: I mean, you know-- I agree. -- you've lost all faith from me. I mean -- Depends what the meaning of "is" is. Yeah, right. Is with me means you will not do ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think if you go back and look MR. FLEGAL: -- period. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- the minutes, though, I think you'll see that we were very specific with our questions relating to that topic. MR. PALMER: ACTING CHAI MR. FLEGAL: It was an unequivocal promise. RMAN PEASE: Yes. Yes. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I believe the minutes will show. Because I think I was -- I asked specifically-- MR. FLEGAL: You did. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: --"now, you absolutely will have no advertising?" Okay, does that exhaust old business? Any reports? Discussion. Mr. Palmer, we wanted to have a discussion just briefly on the steps that are taken with regard to the fuel pricing, which was discussed last time. And I understand staff, you have something to -- MS. ARNOLD: We're going to be discussing that information in the workshop right after this meeting. Page 23 July 5, 2000 ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: And the question was, is the proper procedure to have the workshop involved in the pricing issue? And then it goes -- what's the proper procedures with this? Mr. Flegal, you may want to make some comment. MR. FLEGAL: What I'm interested in is if we're going to discuss -- and I don't know what the workshop is about yet -- rate changes, proposed rate changes or whatever, how is the board going to have such a discussion without the public input or knowledge or whatever? MR. PALMER: I haven't reviewed the ordinance to do this. To my recollection, the ordinance is that it contemplates asking for and trying to receive input from the affected taxicab companies. Sort of an idea about this is in process, we're reviewing these things, generally, please get to us your input. And in fact the ordinance actually has some wording about the kinds of factors that are involved in the analysis. Obviously the proper thing to do is get as much constructive input as we can get from the affected companies. Then the board has a hearing. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: This board? MR. PALMER: This board has a hearing. And this board effectively, after that hearing and there's a consensus by this board, makes a recommendation to the Board of County Commissioners for a change, which is in an advisory context. This board has a lot of quasi judicial powers going toward the companies, but as to the Board of County Commissioners and the rate context, it's advisory. It's usually done with a specific recommendation of the board about specific rate changes and the reasons why and the methodology. But the idea is to get the cab companies involved, get input, have a meeting. Anybody that wishes can attend, speak to you of things they don't like. And then you can vote as to maybe some specific recommendation, if you have one, that you would like to have the rates adjusted thus and so. And that would go to the Board of County Commissioners. If they like the idea, they will instruct the county attorney's office to bring back to them an ordinance amending the ordinance. Mr. Wallace is here today and he suggested that if we do a general overview, a little side note is that we might not want to in the future have to have these things done by ordinance Page 24 July 5, 2000 amendment, that they could actually be done in the future by the Board of County Commissioners with a resolution, without having to go through all the red tape about amending an ordinance. That's another little wrinkle. But Bleu suggested that to me this morning. We had a meeting about it. So the idea is to get the word out. And I think the county manager wants a general overview of the entire rate issue, not just the fuel add-on increments. Bleu is here, he could talk to you about that. MR. FLEGAL: Okay. I guess my concern is before this board makes any kind of recommendation to the commissioners, I mean, if you go out to the cab companies and the charter services and for whatever reason they're busy or whatever, they don't come back, and you're sitting here now, five or six of us are sitting around kicking numbers around. We have no basis to kick these numbers around. I really want -- I mean, we're telling the public what they're going to have to pay to ride in a taxi cab. MR. PALMER: Exactly. MR. FLEGAL: It bothers me that I can't ask the cab companies, or that the public can't come and listen to what we're talking about. All they find out is when the Board of County Commissioners says -- MR. PALMER: Oh, no. MR. FLEGAL: -- we're going to raise the rates. MR. PALMER: Oh, no, the public can have input into your meeting. MR. FLEGAL: Well, but if we're going to do it in a workshop, workshops aren't open to the public. MR. PALMER: No, we'll have it as a formalized public hearing and not a workshop. It will be formal. Now, the thing about it is, is that we cannot compel cab companies to respond to our inquiries. On the other hand -- MR. FLEGAL: Under the ordinance, we can order them to appear. MR. PALMER: Not about a general question about an overview of rates. We cannot say you've got to tell us about rates. They may say well, we're not interested. However, if the cab companies are not interested after an open invitation to them, it would strike me that that's an invitation -- a reasonable supposition that rates are not a Page 25 July 5, 2000 problem; that the industry is not clamoring for increased rates. And I don't know that the board is going to come in -- you are going to recommend a rate increase or the Board of County Commissioners is going to be interested in a rate increase if the regulated industry doesn't care about a rate increase. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Procedurally it's acceptable to discuss the rate issue in a workshop? MR. PALMER: Yes, as long as no substantive decisions are made at the workshop. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Then the next step would be a MS. ARNOLD: Public hearing. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- a public meeting, or would we meet before a public meeting to recommend a public hearing? MS. ARNOLD: The workshop that's scheduled for you today is in response to what you all have asked staff to look into in terms of the rate change. At a prior meeting, this board asked our staff to get information from other companies, and that's what we're bringing back to you for this workshop discussion. In the interim, there's been some administrative change. We were going to present all of that stuff at the workshop. If there's no other discussion, I think we can close the public hearing and then go into the workshop. What Tom has indicated is that when there's formal decisions to be made, we would do it then at a public meeting so that you can receive input from the public at that time. And then whatever recommendations that this board decides on, that would be forwarded. If it effects a change in the rate, then we would forward it to the Board of County Commissioners, because that change would have to occur in an ordinance, and they're the body that would amend that ordinance. MR. FLEGAL: My problem, Tom, is that County Commissioners just added a $2.00 surcharge. So now if we send out and we ask these people to give us information and nobody answers us, well, they've got their two bucks, why should they answer us? I don't like the $2.00 to start with. And that's personal. MR. PALMER: Well, the $2.00, there's no guarantee that that $2.00 is going to go on and on and on. As a matter of fact, the Page 26 July 5, 2000 idea is, is when the gasoline prices, if and whey they drop to a sufficient level, that that surcharge will drop out, and the board will amend an ordinance which will delete that section. That section is expressly a short-term correction. MR. FLEGAL: Well, but when it occurred -- MR. CSOGI: What is it based on, though? What are the -- MR. FLEGAL: My problem is, when the $2.00 occurred, a couple of taxi firms evidently went direct to the County Commissioners and said we need this money, and they got it. MR. PALMER: Right. MR. FLEGAL: And this board's sitting around with the purvey of reviewing these things to make recommendations and we got cut out of the loop. And all I'm saying is why can't we talk to these people? If we ask the Board of County Commissioners to tell these people to come in there, they have to come here. That's what the ordinance said. It says the PVC board, which is the commissioners, may from time to time require owners and operators to appear before this board. And since they've never been here but went and asked for two bucks and got it, I want to know why. Why do they need the money? They have not convinced me. I'm sorry, gas ain't that high. MR. PALMER: Well, here's the thing -- MR. FLEGAL: Doesn't cut it. MR. PALMER: The Board of County -- rate increases to the Board of County Commissioners vis-a-vis this board are advisory only. The board has the legal power to reach down and amend this ordinance without the necessity of having -- asking for advice on this board. That's the way things are. And they did it in this instance. They -- the cab companies submitted some information about how they came at the rate increase that they had. Incidentally, it's not that important, but the rate increase that they gave was not one that I had recommended. So essentially they went over my head, too. Which is fine. That's the prerogative of the Board of County Commissioners. The idea is here, it says you can order people in. But we cannot order people to come in here and tell us what they think about rate increases. We don't have a general commission that can call people into this board for any reason. Usually they'll Page 27 July 5, 2000 come in here if they're in some kind of a violation or there's some serious concern. But we cannot say you will come in here and you will tell us what you think about a possibility of a rate increase. They'll just say we don't care about coming in here and you do what you want to do, if that's their attitude. It seems to me, however, that if in fact rates are low, the affected industry would welcome the opportunity to come before you and try to convince you why they'd like the increase. There has been no clamor, to my knowledge, which may mean that in general. And before the $2.00 fuel increase add-on was, that the industry -- I had not heard the industry saying Collier County needs to give a rate increase in general to its regulated businesses. Which may be evidence that it is not a problem. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: So should the next meeting also be a public hearing? I guess I'm looking at format and procedures. MS. ARNOLD: The workshop -- and correct me if I'm wrong, Tom -- the workshop can be held to discuss and to address some of the concerns that the board members may have. And out of it you can give staff direction. But no formal action can be taken at the workshop. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: We can modify time line of meetings during the workshop, or does that have to be done during this session? In other words, if we don't want to wait till October for this item, because my understanding was counsel wanted a quicker response than October for the issue of the fuel. I thought it was supposed to be in July or August. MS. ARNOLD: The Board of County Commissioners asked for a report back to them in October. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: October. So if we want to do something, we've got to do that before this October 3rd meeting, correct? MR. PALMER: Did they want a general overview, or just the question about the surcharge? MS. ARNOLD: My recollection of the meeting is that we were supposed to report back to them as to why or why not to maintain that surcharge. MR. PALMER: That was -- the focus was on the surcharge -- Page 28 July 5, 2000 MS. ARNOLD: MR. PALMER: general, my recollection. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: MS. ARNOLD: Yes. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Uh-huh. -- and not a general overview of the rates in They do dovetail together -- -- in some way. MR. PALMER: Yes. And in fact, I think Bleu could tell you, but I think the county manager, as the county manager's prerogative, would like the board to do a general look at the matter, which means the object is to get something out, invite the effected industry in for their comment, or written comment to you by letter, fax or whatever, to see what their thinking is. And the idea is if they are going to show at a public hearing, that they are going to give us some specifics as to why the now existing general rates are low. They in effect have the burden of persuasion, unless the board is convinced in its own mind that the rates are too low, and I don't know that that's the case. And then when we could have the meeting, we could have the -- and then you could make a decision as to whether or not to make a recommendation to the Board of County Commissioners on either the bumper or the general rate. But gasoline prices are supposed to be coming down. we heard on the news today that OPEC is going to do another 500,000 gallons a day, I think, or something like that. It's supposed to drop the price of fuel 15 cents in the next month. Which means we may be getting in the area where the surcharge ought to drop out. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Would it be prudent to set up now a public meeting on this topic, one way or the other? MR. FLEGAL: I guess listening to what you're saying, if the County Commissioners are looking for us, they have some kind of input on this $2.00 surcharge. First of all, we didn't get to talk about it in the beginning. Nobody out there wants to tell us any information. You say we can't make the cab companies come in here and give us any information. As far as I'm concerned, my recommendation is stop it immediately. They don't need it. They obviously don't want to come give us the data that we should have to make a decision. They shouldn't have it. MR. PALMER: Well, I would think hypothetically if we sent a Page 29 July 5, 2000 notice out to these companies that said the board is going to consider dropping the surcharge immediately, or as soon as they can get the Board of County Commissioners to do it, we may -- that may or may not generate some affirmative responses from the cab companies. If they are interested in keeping this $2.00 surcharge on there, my guess would be they're going to be in here trying to explain to the board why it's premature to drop the surcharge. MR. CSOGI: I'm confused. Did the board ask the committee to review this? MR. PALMER: No, the board did not. The board -- it was sort of an expedited process. The board wanted to handle it on its own, without any advice from this board. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Initially. But then they came back and said they want our input by October, correct? MR. CSOGI.' They did. MR. PALMER: As to a dropout of the surcharge. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: So there's no way we can have -- that's my point is there's no way we could have a meeting on October 3rd and accomplish the task at hand. MR. PALMER: Oh, well, obviously, if we're going to make a recommendation to the Board of County Commissioners, it had -- you have to make a decision on the merits in enough time to get it on the Board of County Commissioners' agenda, which I would say to be safe would be at least three weeks prior to October 3rd, at the minimum. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: And before that, a public hearing. So my suggestion to this committee is that we ask staff to set up a public hearing -- MS. ARNOLD: In September. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- at the earliest. MS. ARNOLD: At the latest -- ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I don't know how long the time line takes. MS. ARNOLD: -- in September. MR. FLEGAL: I guess, if I look back to our April 4th meeting in the minutes, Page 58, we asked staff to do that. MS. ARNOLD: And that's what we're prepared to do today. MR. FLEGAL.' Well, we asked staff to do that by April 15th. Page 30 July 5, 2000 MR. CSOGI: We were supposed to have a meeting between then and now also. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah, we -- MR. FLEGAL: And we were supposed to have a meeting 30 days later. Well, here it is July 5th. I don't know if the letters went out. I probably doubt it. And we didn't have our 30-day meeting. Now we're trying to decide when we might send -- I mean, come on, guys. We're kind of like -- MS. ARNOLD: Well, the letter did -- MR. FLEGAL: We keep extending. MS. ARNOLD: The letter did go out. And, you know, you can't force people to send things back. We got three responses, SO MR. FLEGAL: Fine. MS. ARNOLD: -- you know, we have copies of all that information. You can look at those now or you can choose not to do your workshop or look at them during a workshop. I mean, that's a choice that this committee has to make. MR. CSOGI: Also, who calls the meeting? Isn't it the Chair that's supposed to call the meeting? ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Of the workshop you're talking about? MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. CSOGI: Of the regular meeting for us -- FLEGAL: I mean, if we didn't get -- CSOGI: Who schedules the meeting -- FLEGAL: -- many answers, obviously there's -- CSOGI: -- the Chair? MR. FLEGAL: -- no interest, then we could have a hearing and say-- MR. PALMER: Doesn't sound like there's -- THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me, I can only take down one at a time speaking. MR. PALMER: It does not sound like there's a clamor. Now, the letter, as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, was limited to the general rate review and was not focused on the fuel surcharge. I would suspect that if a letter went out, and let's say the board sets up a meeting today time certain in about a month, and she sends out letters and says the board is going to consider two things, whether or not the fuel surcharge ought to be eliminated, and a general overview of the rates, that that Page 31 July 5, 2000 should prompt -- either it will or would not prompt a response. If it doesn't prompt a response under the threat of dropping the surcharge, maybe that is not a big deal either. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: We said in the minutes that we would vote at this meeting on that item. You go back and look at the minutes, it says Chairperson Baisley, "1 would like to see staff produce a letter -- some of the taxicab operators are currently holding certificates -- perhaps by April 15th." Mr. Palmer: "Well, actually, if she wants me to, I could have a draft letter from Maria by 2:00 this afternoon. I can e-mail it to her." Chairperson Baisley: "Whatever." Mr. Pease: "Maybe a response by May 5th, a workshop by June 5th." "Right, exactly." Mr. Pease: "And we vote on it July 5th, then it goes to County Commissioners right after that." Question. MR. PALMER: And I did get that letter to her later that day. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: So we didn't have the workshop, but we did say we would vote on that item at this meeting. MR. PALMER: Michelle, this 3.75 that's shown on the taxi meter rate survey June, 2000, that includes the surcharge, doesn't it? MS. ARNOLD: Two percent interest. MR. PALMER: So that figure, absent the surcharge, is $1.75. MS. ARNOLD: Can I ask a procedural question? Do you all want to continue this under the public hearing, or do you want to close the public hearing and go to a workshop? Either was,, that's fine. That's your decision. We're going into the discussion that was intended for the workshop. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right now I'm more comfortable leaving it in the meeting, unless somebody has differences of opinion. MR. PALMER: From a legal perspective, it doesn't make any difference. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah, it doesn't matter. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'd like to continue, if we can. MS. ARNOLD: Okay. So we're just modifying the agenda to remove the workshop, and under discussion is the tax rate issue. Page 32 July 5, 2000 And if I can just interrupt the discussion a little bit longer and introduce Bleu Wallace. I'd indicated to you all that there was an administrative change that had occurred from that meeting that you had to the June workshop that was intended to include this discussion, and that was to ask our utility franchise office -- Bleu Wallace is the director of that office -- to look into rate issues, because that's something that they typically do for the county for utility regulations. So they've been kind of brought up to speed as to what this board's focus is, and the rate issue, and they've done some analysis. We have, in response to that request, sent out letters, and there was a survey that was attached. The response has been handed out to you. As you can see, we only got three responses back. We sent it out to several companies, including some in Fort Myers. MR. CSOGI: Can you expand on several? MS. ARNOLD: Let me ask Maria the exact number. MR. CSOGI: And also, how many permits are issued in Collier County? MS. ARNOLD: We sent it out to all those permitted under Collier County. But I think we also sent it to those -- MS. CRUZ: The taxi --just the taxi companies. MS. ARNOLD: Yeah, but who else -- didn't we send to it Ft. Myers as well? You were looking -- I stand corrected, we -- MS. CRUZ: The survey was sent to the Collier County taxi companies. MS. ARNOLD: So I stand corrected, we did not send it to Fort Myers. And then we also conducted a phone questionnaire and asked those counties that are identified in that second handout that you received what their rates are. And you can see what the first mile rate is and the additional mile rate is for those counties that we -- MR. FLEGAL: Collier County is killing these people. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Does that include -- MR. PALMER: That's with the surcharge. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yeah, that's the $2.00 surcharge. MR. FLEGAL: That's what I say, I wasn't for it in the Page 33 July 5, 2000 beginning, and if you take the $2.00 off, we're still charging more than these other places. Take two bucks from 3.75, you know, 1.75 is still higher than anybody else. MR. PALMER: That's correct. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, how can you walk around saying gee, I'm going broke? Give me a break. MR. PALMER: I'm not sure anybody is. MR. FLEGAL: No, they're not. That's why I was against it when I heard about it. MS. ARNOLD: Can we have Bleu Wallace speak to the board? ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Sure. Welcome. MR. WALLACE: Thank you. For the record, I'm Bleu Wallace, I'm the director of utility and franchise regulation department. We're a sister department with code enforcement, under the same division. Usually our normal job is to oversee cable, water and sewer in the private sector. I've been looking at the vehicle for hire and the taxi rates and your ordinance, and I haven't located or found a methodology that you can nail down like you can the other type rates that you established. And I was looking for guidance from this committee to advise staff. Consider yourself with an expanded staff. I have -- I have two rate analysts in my department that I'll put at Michelle's disposal to go through this and look at anything you want to look at. And it was my hope that after guidance, or maybe one of the committee members could be appointed as a liaison with our staff to go through this thing and work day-to-day or whatever it takes so we can come back to you in short order, short time frame, and see if we can find something that justifies this surcharge, or something that justifies an overall increase in rates for this sector. Right now I'm at a loss, because I do not understand the methodology of how the taxi rates are set. The reason I say that is I'm used to dealing with water and sewer where you have a base charge. If you want to parallel that with a taxi, I guess that's when you get in the cab, the base charge you have to pay every month. That covers the fixed costs. And then the mileage or whatever would be the variable costs. On the water and sewer side, that would be the electricity that runs the pumps Page 34 July 5, 2000 that pumps the water and the lights. So I think there is a correlation here. It may be a stretch. But maybe we can come up, with the help of the committee members here, especially one liaison with staff to establish a methodology that everybody can understand and everybody maybe can play off the same level playing field and establish a rate, an increase, if they need it, and justify it. I think the -- one of the problems here is that this committee is not sure -- or maybe no one's sure -- whether or not the surcharge can be justified or not. And I think that's something that this committee needs to know and report that to the Board of County Commissioners. And your extended staff, or the folks that work for me, will support Michelle in reviewing anything that you direct us to review in coming up or giving you the tools to come up with that recommendation, or those findings. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Your group came up with this sheet? MR. FLEGAL: No, I think they just called and -- MR. WALLACE: No, that came from Michelle's staff. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: It came from Michelle? MR. FLEGAL: That's what I thought. MR. WALLACE: I do know that in the recent time frame, Lee County did add $1.50 surcharge, I was told, based on this sewer -- I mean, the fuel surcharge. MR. FLEGAL: Well, I heard on television Detroit added a dollar something. But in looking at Collier County, I mean, this questionnaire that I faxed to Maria, in the records they're supposed to keep for us to go in and review, if we want to review them, that's where I got all these items. They're supposed to keep this information. All the taxi owners. They're supposed to have these records and this specific data. So, I mean, if you're going to get in the taxi business, I mean, you know the cab costs "X", you've got to pay your drivers "X", you've got to have insurance, you've got to buy fuel, you've got to -- it's all maintenance. I mean, it's the way you run any business. The taxi business is no different. And that equates out to for me to operate, I need $1.00 a mile, $5.00 a mile, something. You need "X". Page 35 July 5, 2000 And to get "X", they had to go through all this. They didn't just sit down and say I'm going to go out and buy a $20,000 cab and I'm going to charge $5.00 a mile. I mean, something told them they had to do that. Or I'm buying a $20,000 cab and I'm going to live with the dollar and some cents that, you know, Naples gives me. So the information's there. Somebody's got to sit down and say why do you need more. I mean, what changed? If your cars are getting 16 miles to the gallon and, you know, looking at maintenance costs, personnel costs, fuel costs, all these other things you're supposed to have, the bottom line is you could get by with just making, you know, a buck a mile, and we're letting you get $3.00 a mile. What's the problem? Don't walk in and say you need another $2.00. Why do you need it? And see, they haven't done that yet. They just -- they circumvented the system and went to the County Commissioners and said gee, oh, geez, gas prices are high, we need two bucks. And the County Commissioners believed them and said okay. That isn't flying for me as trying to protect the citizen out there. The little old lady that's got to go down to the hospital to get something, she only can get around in a taxicab, fixed income. And all of a sudden we've slapped her with an additional two bucks to go a mile. I think that's severely unfair. And now I'm asking the taxi people, tell me why you need it. And obviously they don't want to tell staff. So from my standpoint, take the two bucks off. Nobody's told me they need it and why they need it. For your folks to justify, I could see spending a lot of time going to get this information, which they have to provide. The ordinance says you've got to keep these records and we can come in and look for it. All I ask them to do, because they're the ones that said we want the money, they should have already done this. Unless somebody got up one day and said hey, let's get together and ask for two bucks, which I think is what they did. I don't think they did this -- MR. PALMER: Now, one thing that might generate a response would be a letter to the companies that said this board is not convinced that the surcharge is warranted on the facts. We're going to have a hearing and we need to be convinced -- that's this board needs to be convinced -- by the industry why Page 36 July 5, 2000 you should not recommend to the Board of County Commissioners to delete the surcharge as soon as possible, and see if that generates any meaningful response. MR. FLEGAL: I mean, yeah, obviously by these rates in these larger cities, Miami, Tampa, Fort Lauderdale, I mean, they're not charging anything compared to us. I mean, we're no MR. CSOGI: Yeah, but in their defense, though, you've got a lot more people making a lot more trips out of the same cabs. I don't see how you can compare Collier County with Miami. MR. FLEGAL: I'm sorry, that won't wash, because you chose to get in the taxi business, and just because there's not a lot of people here doesn't mean we should triple the price. The price is the price. MR. PALMER: The surcharge is an anomaly. It's a one-time thing. And it sooner -- obviously sooner or later it's got to drop out. The question is when. You may, if you want to expedite the process, may tell these people to respond in two weeks and that you'll hold a hearing in three weeks to a month, whatever you want to do, and if you're not convinced of the necessity of the surcharge, and you're prepared, unless you're convinced otherwise, to recommend to the Board of County Commissioners to drop the surcharge. It seems to me the idea is to put the ball in their court. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Do we have to have a public hearing before we make a recommendation to the board? MR. PALMER: I believe the ordinance says that. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's what I thought. MR. FLEGAL: Well, when the surcharge went into effect in March -- because that day, I think it was around March 29th -- I went out and checked the gas prices. And I've been checking them every month. And for the past three months, gee, prices changed about two cents. And yet these folks are getting two bucks a clip every time somebody opens the door to go a mile or two miles or whatever. And I just think the people of Collier County are being ripped off royally. MR. PALMER: Well, one of the things we don't know is how many times in a day the average cab driver is able to impose that surcharge. Obviously if you have a real short run, assuming it's valid in the concept, if you only go a half a mile, it's quite a hit. If Page 37 July 5~ 2000 you go 20 miles and extrapolate the $2.00 over 20 miles, it's not so much. My recommendation was not to have a flat off-the-top thing, but it was to -- it would be eaten up by mileage. Because it is sort of weighted heavily on a short trip. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: And the senior who has the short trip to the grocery store is the one who's getting -- MR. FLEGAL: He's getting -- ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- the hardest hit. MR. PALMER: Because as a function of the total length of the trip, $2.00, if it's on a half a mile trip, it's a big hit. MR. FLEGAL: I guess the problem is regardless of the length, the majority of the trips in this county, with the number of taxis there are in this county, I would say they're not all 20 miles. They're probably the little short runs of three, four, five, six miles maybe. East Naples to downtown. MR. PALMER: That would be interesting information. MR. FLEGAL: Well, that's supposed to be available, but it seems nobody wants to give it to us. MR. PALMER: Well, no, it's available if we want to go out and get it. And if we can in fact look at these things, these manifests, I guess they call it, at least they did when I drove a taxicab, and you can take about a week's work and you can extrapolate and figure out generally what somebody is doing. And if it's an average taxicab driver, you can find out how many times in a seven-day period the people are getting this $2.00 surcharge imposed and it wouldn't be a very difficult analysis. MS. ARNOLD: Can I make a suggestion? What we can do, as Bleu suggested, maybe one member of this committee could work with them to come up with some sort of methodology using those questions that were sent out previously. And I agree with Tomy that we possibly could send out another notice requiring them to provide that information. If you look on Page 16 of your ordinance, there are rate change procedures identified in the ordinance that indicates that the Public Vehicle Board may from time to time look at the rates and require the owners and operators of taxicabs to appear before them to discuss these things. So possibly we can couch another letter or notice to the taxicab companies, requiring them to provide this information. Page 38 July 5, 2000 MR. CSOGI: Yeah, but I think that's -- you're -- that's the board, that's the commissioners, that's not us. MS. ARNOLD: No, it says the Public Vehicle Board. MR. FLEGAL: That's the commissioners. MR. CSOGI: That's the commissioners, it's not us. MR. FLEGAL: We're the PVAC. MS. ARNOLD: Oh, I see. MR. FLEGAL: Tom, the daily manifest -- MS. ARNOLD: Well, we could ask -- MR. FLEGAL: -- I mean, it's real -- THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me, one at a time. MS. ARNOLD: The board can direct them to appear before the PVAC, which is what it says. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: My concern is the time line on this, and the fact that we can study this thing to death. I mean, my suggestion is we schedule immediately, at the earliest possible convenience, the required public hearing, and at that time a lot of this discussion can take place, as well as comments and questions directly. If they want to participate, they can. And then we -- I'm not sure how long it takes to get that type of hearing. But then the very next month or the same month we have a board meeting, we put it right on the table and make a vote. We were supposed to take a vote on this today. It didn't happen, because it's not -- it wasn't followed through. MS. ARNOLD: We didn't have information in June. There was no information to give you in June. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MS. ARNOLD: I mean, we could have had a meeting in June, but I don't know what you would have been voting on. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: What's the time line -- how long does it take to arrange a public hearing, with notice? MR. PALMER: I don't know that there's a hard and fast -- I would think that giving notice not less than t4 days after receipt of the letter would be satisfactory in any case. In other words, if we're going to do this a month from now, we'll get a date certain, and she gets these letters out in the next couple of days, they will have more than adequate notice for the public hearing. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: That's my recommendation to the board, we have -- Page 39 July 5, 2000 MR. FLEGAL: One quickie. I mean, these daily manifests that they're required to keep, I mean, this isn't rocket science. MR. PALMER: No, it's not. MR. FLEGAL: You say during the month of May there was, you know, 31 days. How many trips did you make each day. You made 10 trips. That's two bucks a pop. MR. PALMER: Right, exactly. MR. FLEGAL: Each trip gets two bucks. PALMER: Exactly. FLEGAL: So, I mean-- PALMER: You could quantify the surcharge very, very MR. MR. MR. easily. MR. FLEGAL: MR. PALMER: MR. FLEGAL: make it-- Yeah. I mean, this is real simple. Of course it is. I mean, I don't know why everybody's trying to MR. PALMER: I've got to recuse myself. I've got a meeting up in Horseshoe Drive and I'm late for it already. MR. FLEGAL: We understand. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Does the chairperson set meeting dates, or does -- MR. FLEGAL: Yes. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- the board? MR. PALMER: The chairperson has the power to do that, but it's normally done by consensus, depending -- you know, to accommodate people's schedules and so forth. But you actually can do that on your own, if you desire. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Well, I'll look for consensus so we can close this meeting. Is it acceptable to this committee that within 30 days we have a public hearing on this topic? MR. FLEGAL: Yes. MR. CSOGI: That's fine. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I think it's go. MS. ARNOLD: Okay. And what are you asking staff to bring to you? ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: We want to have a public hearing on the topic of the fuel surcharge. At that time, in which it will be the last opportunity probably for the taxi operators to -- MR. CSOGI: To Respond. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: -- speak their mind on this topic Page 40 July 5, 2000 in front of this committee. MR. FLEGAL: Justification of fuel surcharge, how's that sound? MR. PALMER: Well, justification as to why it should not be terminated summarily. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. MR. FLEGAL: Okay, so -- MR. CSOGI: I think also the staff should provide us, like Mr. Flegal said, with -- if we're allowed to obtain it, the manifest, and we can simply look at how many trips they made. I mean, is that too much to ask? MR. FLEGAL: I mean, it's -- the information's there. They ought to be able to write it down real simply. I mean, they have to keep a daily manifest. It's required. If you just flip through the pages and say there's 10 -- just take a calendar and write it on the days and bring it in. I don't care. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: In other words, surcharges per day is what you're looking at. MR. FLEGAL: Well, if you tell me how many trips -- MR. PALMER: Well, we have a member of this board that owns a taxicab company. It would seem to me to be a reasonable accommodation of the board to gather that information and use that as a base for -- ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: She didn't respond to the survey. That company did not respond to the survey. MR. PALMER: Well, okay. I think we have a right to go to records -- at least subject to check of this ordinance, I think we have a right to go to the records and do the analysis ourselves, but I don't think we have the right to compel somebody to compile this information and submit it to us. MR. CSOGI: No, all I was asking for is just to -- MR. PALMER: Oh, I understand. MR. CSOGI: -- check -- MR. PALMER: I just wanted to make that clear. MR. CSOGI: That way, when we have the hearing, we have something to base it against what the people are telling us. MR. FLEGAL: I understand-- MR. PALMER: You see what I'm saying. MR. FLEGAL: -- Tom, you know, but if they want $2.00 -- MR. PALMER: Well, exactly. Page 41 July 5, 2000 MR. FLEGAL: See, I'd bring you the information. MR. PALMER: That's my point. If people aren't going to come in here and say look, please don't drop this down, it appears to me that this is gratuitous and they're getting along fine without the surcharge. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Does staff-- MR. PALMER: That's the issue. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Does staff have a clear understanding? MS. ARNOLD: Okay, so you're directing us to go and get that information ourselves? ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Right. As best you can. Knowing that they're not being forced to provide the information. MR. FLEGAL: Probably the easiest is pick one or two companies. And I wouldn't pick -- you know, you might pick a large one and a small one and just go in and check their manifests for say the month of May. MR. CSOGI: No, I'd ask for more than two. I would say maybe 10, that way we can do an average. MR. FLEGAL: You're trying to -- whatever your staff -- I don't know the staff load, so -- ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Yeah, I don't know if they would have time for 10. MR. FLEGAL: If you took one month -- they ought to be in one folder, I would think. And if you took just a calendar pad and you said gee, Checker Cab, May 1st, 10 trips, May 2nd, 20 trips, and you just go -- I mean, this isn't rocket science here. This could be a fast thing. Then you find out the number of trips. MS. ARNOLD: I'm not asking how it's done. All I said is that you're directing staff to obtain that information ourselves? MR. FLEGAL: Yeah. MS. ARNOLD: Thank you. MR. PALMER: Well, hopefully there will be some cab companies that will cooperate with us and will voluntarily and promptly provide you with data, at which you can come back to the board and you can make a recommendation whether or not you think the surcharge is justified or not. If we don't get any response, it may be that this surcharge is a non-issue, and let's go to the Board of County Commissioners and say drop it out. Page 42 July 5, 2000 ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: I'm convinced Yellow Cab will cooperate with you on that, to justification of that surcharge. (At which time, Mr. Palmer exits the boardroom.) ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: And then that would be a public hearing meeting. MS. ARNOLD: Yes. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Okay. MS. ARNOLD: 30 days from today, or thereabouts. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Correct. All right. Do I have to motion to adjourn? MR. HYDE: Motion to adjourn. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Second? MR. FLEGAL: Second. ACTING CHAIRMAN PEASE: Motion carried, I assume, under default. There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 2:30 p.m. VEHICLE ADVISORY BOARD BRYAN L.S. PEASE, ACTING CHAIRMAN TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC., BY CHERIE' R. LEONE, NOTARY PUBLIC Page 43