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DSAC Minutes 07/05/2000 RJULY 5, 2000 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE DEVELOPMENT SERVICES ADVISORY COMMITTEE Naples, Florida, July 5, 2000 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Development Services Advisory Committee, in and for the County of Collier, as the governing board of such special district as has been created according to law and having conducted business herein, met on this date at 4:00 p.m., in REGULAR SESSION, at the Conference Room "F", Horseshoe Drive, Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: DALAS D. DISNEY CHARLES MORGAN ABBOTT R. BRUCE ANDERSON, ESQ. MATT BIXLER ROBERT L. DUANE, AICP MARCO A. ESPINAR SALLY LAM DINO J. LONGO TOM MASTERS, P.E. HERBERT R. SAVAGE, AIA ALSO PRESENT: VINCENT A. CAUTERO, MICHELLE ARNOLD, ED PERICO, TOM KUCK Page JULY 5, 2000 CHAIRMAN DISNEY: All right. I'll call to order the July 5th, 2000 meeting of the Development Services Advisory Committee. Are there any modifications to today's agenda? MR. CAUTERO: I have none, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: No. Anyone? No? Hearing none, is there a motion to approve the agenda? MR. DUANE: So move. MR. SALVAGE: Second. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Second from Mr. Salvage. All those in favor, say aye. Any opposed? Hearing none. The next business item is approval of the minutes of June the 7th, 2000 meeting. Are there any corrections before we approve? MS. LAM: Yeah. Page 2, bottom of the page where Foley says I want to get his lightly early, and I think it's slightly earlier. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Thank you. MS. LAM: And the other one is on Page 14. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: I'm sorry, Sally. What page? MS. LAM: 14. Relatively at the top of the page it says they have a particular violation and they were calling me to fine out instead of find out. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: So, the word change from fine to find -- MS. LAM: Fine to find. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: -- f-i-n-d. MS. LAM: Right. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Okay. Any other corrections? Is there a motion to approve the minutes? MR. LONGO: So moved. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Second? MR. MASTER: Second. MR. ESPINAR: Second. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: All those in favor, say aye. Any opposed? Hearing none. Staff announcements, Mr. Cautero? MR. CAUTERO: Mr. Chairman, the normal announcement that we'd make, the summary of ordinance amendments, which I believe is the last page of your packet or next to last page of your packet, you'll find the chart that we submit every month with the latest round of amendments that we're working on and Page 2 JULY 5, 2000 the status of those amendment proposals. You'll notice that the first cycle of the board of county commissioners land development code amendments that were reviewed by this committee had been recommended for approval with various changes was adopted by the board on June 14th. We'll be working on the second cycle circle soon and we'll bring those, of course, to your land development regulation subcommittee as well as any other ordinance amendment that is forthcoming. Notice we have five pending ordinances. We still have three in the building department; coastal setbacks, disaster recovery and the flood ordinance as well as the telecommunications ordinance and a right-of-way ordinance that our utility franchise regulation departments are working on pending some changes perhaps in the legislation, but we're waiting to set some things out right now. There was a flat tax legislation bill that was approved by the legislature in the last session. I believe the Governor signed it in early June and the county is challenging that legislation that takes away a significant amount of ability on behalf of the county to collect money for use as in the right of way and we're challenging that. The board has authorized us to hire legal counsel to do so, some of these depending on that challenge. And the rental registration ordinance is not on here anymore. You'll notice that it's conspicuously absent, report that matter and continue this amendment and the board did approve the amendment to the weed litter and exotic control ordinance reverting back to the old language on coverage on June 27th. Citation ordinance is pending. Michelle is going to get you more information, bring it back to your subcommitee. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Good. Thank you. Any questions or comments? MR. MASTER: I was just going to let Vince know that we just agreed to do a subcommittee meeting on 7/27. MR. CAUTERO: Okay. Very good. MR. DUANE: I have a question for Vince. MR. CAUTERO: Yes. MR. DUANE: Vince, I haven't got the amendments yet from the municipal code corporation that were adopted last fall yet, not including the ones that were just adopted. Is there some Page 3 JULY 5, 2000 way we can get them to distribute these amendments in a more timely fashion? I know it's on the internet. Is that anything you can help us with? MR. CAUTERO: I'll do my best. If I remember correctly, the last year and the year before we ran into this problem as well and we tried to have our staff work with them, do maybe some contractual issues, but I'll do my best to sift through some of that. I don't know what abilities we have to ask them to move forward quicker with hard copies, given the fact that it is on the internet, but we'll certainly do our best. I know that's very frustrating for all of us. If there's something I can do, we'll find out what that is. MR. DUANE: Could you report back to us at our next meeting, please? MR. CAUTERO: Sure. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Miscellaneous items. Vince, did you have anything under miscellaneous? MR. CAUTERO: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Maybe one thing to comment about is the member resignation. Mr. Dillon submitted his resignation from the committee and Vince tells me that it has been readvertised. MR. CAUTERO: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: He was in the capacity of engineer, I think. MR. CAUTERO: Yes. I believe he was in that capacity. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Okay. Good. Thank you. Takes us to Item 4, old business. Budget discussion? MR. CAUTERO: Very briefly, Mr. Chairman, I have some good news for the committee. If the committee recalls, last month we went over in great detail the -- the community development fund revenue, an appropriation picture, and informed the committee that we had a need for somewhere in the vicinity of one point one million dollars, between one point one and one point four million dollars in expanded service, which would be new programs and new positions for fiscal year 2001. Given that expanded and service requesting, and given the fact that the county plans on spending somewhere between nine and nine and a half million dollars on an expansion to this Page 4 JULY 5, 2000 building including a parking garage and probably spending anywhere between -- MR. SAVAGE: To this building? MR. CAUTERO: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Yes. MR. SAVAGE: Nine million dollars? No. MR. CAUTERO: Between nine and nine and a half million dollars. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Yes. MR. CAUTERO: Including a four-story parking garage. Given that fact and given the fact that we are now in the first year of a multiyear project for GIS or Geographic Information System, we were concerned about our revenues and our revenues dipping below a level that we had become accustomed to which would be anywhere in the four to six million dollar range which is high but still about, represents about one year of operating reserves. We proposed a -- we proposed for your consideration, which the committee endorsed with some caveats, a 15 percent fee increase across the board which is equivalent to the fee decrease that took place five years ago almost to the day. The committee unanimously endorsed that concept with two caveats and those caveats are listed in the action items. And the committee stated -- and I took this off the verbatim minutes, which you'll see on the first page of your packet. The committee supported a 15 percent fee increase for building permit and building applications provided that the finance committee's reserve in the community development fund requirements and recommendations cannot be changed. However, the Development Services Advisory Committee would like the finance committee to answer the question raised regarding what the reserve requirements should be, which have an impact in the one one three fund. That number was one that was proposed by the finance committee prior to the budget discussion and prior to the budget analysis. So, that's one reason why we came up with that number because there were no -- there were no accurate numbers at that point in time as to what the budget picture looked like. And, secondly, it was a guesstimate and the people on the Page 5 JULY 5, 2000 finance committee would be the first ones to tell you that. And I had a long discussion with Mike Smykowski, the budget director, about it. There's no magic to that number. This committee was very concerned and adamant that that number -- that number being the cash outlay of the nine and a half million -- be looked at and potentially be raised. I can tell you that the finance committee would feel comfortable doing that. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Good. MR. CAUTERO: So, that would lower the amount of money that could come out of the reserve account which is what this committee felt was appropriate and that more cash be used and less loan money be used. The finance committee's recommendation to the county manager, which then was carried forward to the board, was up to four and a half million in loans. So, that number can be changed and I'll take whatever number you feel comfortable with to the finance committee and the numbers would be revised. So, that number is not set in stone. Either way we still have the one point one or one point four. It's between one point one and one point four million need for expanded service which still does not decrease the need for the 15 percent be increased in staff's opinion unless you're going to deplete the reserves. And we estimated that within five years those reserves would be depleted if there was no fee increase. Given the cash outlay, it varies on how much cash we would spend on the building, of course. Given the GIS needs and given the expansion needs of the building as well as other equipment that we may need to support the building permit system that is finally in its concluding stages. So, five million is a round number. That could certainly be raised to the committee's liking and I'll take that back to the county manager. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: The 15 percent fee increase, I don't recall that we had an exact time on when we were going to do that. MR. CAUTERO: No, we did not. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: That is something to look at in the future and depends upon the cash reserves and the -- the moneys Page 6 JULY 5, 2000 needed. MR. CAUTERO: That's correct. A clean way to do it would be at the beginning of the fiscal year, which I will have -- I will have those numbers for you -- CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Right. MR. CAUTERO: -- before the fiscal year begins because the budget director has to have those final numbers prior to the budget final hearings, the two final hearings in September, but that will be the committee's choice and that's exactly what you're here to do is recommend those fees, what they are. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Okay. Dino has a question. MR. LONGO: Vince, do we have a mechanism in place that will set the budget for the building and all that and what happens if it goes over budget for whatever the reasons, where that extra money is going to come from if we decide to set an arbitrary revenue amount or a reserve fund amount that we want to keep? In other words, you're saying that's not set in stone, so if we decide to take more out of that and put it toward the building regardless and we say let's just keep it at three million dollars, my question is what happens if the building goes over budget? Where is the extra money coming from? MR. CAUTERO: The answer to that question is it comes out of reserves, so the committee is certainly free, and we would welcome a recommendation along those lines. I will tell you that the estimate for the cost on the building is -- is a little high. It's very conservative from the facilities maintenance director and that's who prepared the estimate with consultation from a lot of people. However, it was his final recommendation to the county manager on what the budget should be. And he was told to not go over budget so that's why it may seem a little high. Almost everybody has talked to him, you know, and the eyebrows raised and everything like that. The bulk of that is going to be the parking garage which is very -- MR. LONGO: What my concern is that if we decide based on what you just told us that let's go ahead and take more cash out and lower that reserve a little bit and also that goes a million bucks over budget, now we've got a reserves load again -- MR. CAUTERO: Correct. Page 7 JULY 5, 2000 MR. LONGO: -- find another million dollars -- MR. CAUTERO: Correct. MR. LONGO: -- with not knowing, so -- MR. CAUTERO: That's why a recommendation like the finance committee made up to is something you may want to consider. I think we're going to be okay. I mean, I don't think we're going to go over nine and a half million. If we do, construction costs have increased tremendously in a year from when we made the estimate or we completely misread the documentation. And I don't believe either of those is going to be true. MR. ABBOTT: Question. Who made the estimate? MR. CAUTERO: The facilities management director. MR. ABBOTT: Yeah, but who? MR. CAUTERO: Skip Campbell. MR. ABBOTT: Skip. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: It will be fat. MR. ABBOTT: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: I don't see how you can go over the program that you establish. MR. ABBOTT: This committee could do a better job. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Without a doubt. MR. ABBOTT: No question, guys. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Okay. Thank you, Vince. MR. ABBOTT: We could build our own building and do it cheaper. MR. CAUTERO: I don't mean to depress you or the committee rush you but do you want to come up with a recommendation on changing that cash outlay because you were very concerned about it at the last meeting? MR. LONGO: When do you need it? MR. CAUTERO: I need that as soon as possible. The 15 percent fee increase we can do later because we have a lot of paperwork to get together for you on that anyway and there's some tinkering with some costs that we want to talk to you about. That's going to involve a subcommittee meeting -- CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Right. MR. CAUTERO: -- before a full committee meeting, but I would like to take that recommendation to *the budget office so he can -- Mike Smykowski can send it to the finance committee Page 8 JULY 5, 2000 as soon as possible. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Which, of course, I suppose we can talk -- we don't have all of the numbers here in front of us today, and for you to try to make a bunch of copies and get it in here for us to discuss it I don't think is appropriate. Which of our subcommittees, whether it be construction or land development, would be most appropriate to discuss the item? I mean, we could do it there and then bring some recommendations forward for the whole committee on some sort of a summary form. MR. SAVAGE: Mr. Chairman, Herb Savage. I think the construction committee would do the review. MR. ABBOTT: Of what? What are we reviewing? CHAIRMAN DISNEY: We're talking about the budgets. MR. SAVAGE: The cost of the building. MR. ABBOTT: The cost of the building. MR. LONGO: No. That's not what he's asking. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: I think we're talking two separate things here. MR. CAUTERO: We're talking about cash outlay-- CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Cash outlay and budget recommendation. MR. ABBOTT: Wouldn't the whole committee be best to look at the cash outlay? MR. CAUTERO: I can bring it to you in August. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: If it won't cramp you from a time standpoint, we can do it in August, have the information in our packet so that we could review it in advance and any information that you have, Vince, that would support this nine million dollars for the new building, if you could include that as well, we could -- we could take a peek at where Mr. Camp was with those numbers and I think a certain of us can get a better comfort level. Charlie. MR. ABBOTT: The 15 percent increase in the permit, can we just let that go by default to October 1, the fiscal year? CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Well, do we need it October 17 MR. CAUTERO: I would like to do it at the beginning of the fiscal year so I can track how much more we've collected. It's so much cleaner. But the world is not going to come to an end if Page 9 JULY 5, 2000 we don't have it October 1. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: October 1, 2000 or October 1, 20017 MR. SAVAGE: 2000. MR. CAUTERO: 2000. We lose a full year which I'd rather not do if you spend more cash because if I get socked with some numbers I'm not aware of on GIS, I might end up, and it may seem ridiculous for me to say this, but I might end up with a reserve of one to two million. And that scares me. That goes quick when you start doing projects and the board has been very MR. LONGO: So, alls we really need in August is a bullet sheet. MR. CAUTERO: Pardon me? MR. LONGO: AIIs we really need in August is a bullet sheet showing the proposed budget, the numbers as you show them today with the proposed budget, the reserves as of last month's sheet. MR. CAUTERO: Yeah. We'll have new revenue and appropriate forms. MR. LONGO: We can make the decision then. I mean, if you want to review the building costs, I don't -- I don't know if we want to do that. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Well, I think that's a separate issue from this budget here entirely. Personally, I would like to have a look at it. MR. LONGO.' Well, that was part of my point though. I mean, if -- I mean, I'm not one to sit here and counter what Skip's budget came up, but I mean if it's obvious that it may be way too fat and we're asking them to -- to put more cash into it and depleting our reserves, well if it's just well faced by some chance, again we deplete our reserves by having to dip back in to them for overruns, I think we need to take a look at that. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: I agree. And I think that our subcommittee could do that. I mean, there's enough talent there that -- MR. LONGO: Do you want the construction subcommittee to do that? CHAIRMAN DISNEY: I think that that would be the appropriate thing to do. MR. ESPINAR: Mr. Chairman, Marco Espinar. Page 10 JULY 5, 2000 Vince, how about the other scenario? If you've got -- we budget like nine and a half million and there's half a million left over, does that go back into the reserves? MR. CAUTERO: Oh, yeah. It stays in there. MR. LONGO: They just draw down from reserves. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Stays in reserves. MR. LONGO: You wouldn't touch that. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: We've got an open issue on the table then and that's your 15 percent and you need some time to deal with that. I mean, we have -- MR. CAUTERO: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: As a committee, we've expressed support for that. Do you -- do you want or need a motion today on that issue? MR. CAUTERO: I don't think I do based on what you said at the last meeting unless you're uncomfortable with that and if you're not uncomfortable with that, I'd like to just start preparing the paperwork. It's going to be a couple of months before we finalize it anyway. MR. ABBOTT: Do you have to advertise it or anything? MR. CAUTERO: It wouldn't require a special advertisement like planned use development. It just would be on the board agenda. MR. ABBOTT: So, no time frame considerations. MR. CAUTERO: There's no time frame. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: So, you gear yourself towards the fiscal year and bring us the paperwork at the appropriate time and we've already expressed our support for what you're doing. MR. CAUTERO: Okay. MR. LONGO: Do we want to show a building block that lets everybody know that come October 1st the new fees would increase? MR. CAUTERO: We would put that well in advance. MR. ABBOTT: You know, give us time to howl and carry on. MR. SAVAGE: Mr. Chairman, Herb Salvage. I haven't been here for the last couple of meetings but I'm assuming that we're very happy with the number of persons we're allowed to employ increase. Therefore -- you see, I think it's a heck of a lot more important to have a few million dollars to have more employees out in the field inspecting properties than it is to have a place to Page 11 JULY 5, 2000 park my car. I don't know where this all came about, but -- CHAIRMAN DISNEY: And that was discussed and there was a substantial staff increase. That's what the one point four million is that Vince was speaking of so that -- that staffing has been addressed as a part of the process. Absolutely. Okay. Moving along, if there's nothing else on old business, budget discussion? Are you okay, Vince? MR. CAUTERO: I'm fine. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Okay. Subcommittee reports; land development. MR. DUANE: No report. We will be meeting on the 27th. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: And construction code? MR. LONGO: No report, Mr. Chairman. MR. ABBOTT: Comment though. We have a FEMA meeting on July 11th. MR. LONGO: At 1:30. MR. ABBOTT: At the county. MR. LONGO: At the Building F at the county courthouse. MR. PERICO: Emergency management. MR. ABBOTT: Emergency Management operations. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Okay. So, if anyone wishes to attend that FEMA meeting, you're certainly welcome. Utility code. Mr. Peek isn't here. Was there a utility meeting? MR. KUCK: Yes. We had a utility meeting. There is a copy of the minutes attached to the agenda. The only thing I would like to say, we're getting real good attendance but we're not getting any attendance from the advisory committee. It think there's like 12 or 13 people, but it makes it a little bit awkward sometime to act on things as a subcommittee if we don't have some representatives present. And I know that for some of them it's a little bit more difficult. Hopefully at this month's meeting we could have some participation. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Excellent. So, all you from the utility code subcommittee who are members of that if you can attend, it would be wonderful support for staff. MR. SAVAGE: Herb Savage. I usually get here on the wrong day. I try to make it but, you know, it just doesn't work. And Page 12 JULY 5, 2000 Tom says that was last week, you see. But it's difficult, you know. At my age you understand that. MR. KUCK: We'll do two mailings to you, Herb. MR. LONGO.' One before and one after. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: A separate phone line for that fax machine of yours. MR. ABBOTT: The Alzheimer's Society schedules two meetings every day. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Okay. New business. Is there any new business? There's none listed here. We're going to set a record for being out of here. MR. LONGO: Yes. Slam dunk. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Subcommittee member comments. We're going to go around this way. MR. ABBOTT: None. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Mr. Abbott. Mr. Espinar? MR. ESPINAR: None. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: MS. LAM: None. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: comments? MR. DUANE: No, I don't. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Bruce? MR. ANDERSON: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Tom? MR. MASTERS: No comment. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Dino. MR. LONGO: None. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Mr. Savage MR. ABBOTT: Make it unanimous. MR. SAVAGE: I never like to make it unanimous. Herb Savage. I wonder how many of you have driven on Collier Boulevard at recent times, otherwise known as 9517 MR. ABBOTT: 951. MR. SAVAGE: The magnificent landscaping of the entrance of a community called Fiddler's Creek, a couple lakes, open spaces, variation in foliage and trees. So, now I understand they're paying for landscaping of 951 and I don't know whether Botner or whoever it was that did whatever Vanderbilt Drive. It Sally. Bob Duane, did you have any number of Page 13 JULY 5, 2000 looked like columns going along the center of the median. You ought to take a look at it, you know. And the canopy trees as well as the palm trees are all absolutely beautifully lined up. And all the saw grass, whosoever grass it is, is all exactly the same height. No breaks in it or anything. Where is our creativity? And unfortunately, Mr. Cautero, I understand it was paid for by the state or at least it's hired by the State of Florida and paid for by -- what do you call it -- Fiddler's Creek. But where are we going to get somebody to do a little creative thinking? We talk about it in buildings all the time. We're supposed to be talking about it in our environment. I tell you all this. Take a look at these things. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Thank you. MR. SAVAGE: Nobody ever looks at those things except me. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Mr. Anderson has a comment. MR. ANDERSON: Now you have engendered a comment. I do look at those things, particularly when they are obscuring my vision when I'm trying to drive. MR. SAVAGE: Absolutely. MR. ANDERSON: I think it looks beautiful in our community but there are many instances where it is a safety factor and we've got to try to achieve some kind of a balance because it's nice to have a community look like that but the roads are to safely transport from one place to another. MR. SAVAGE: Absolutely. In fact, the median strip, you know, once in a while it would be kind of good to see across the median area to the other lane of traffic. MR. ABBOTT: See that sheriff sitting over there. MR. SAVAGE: But let me ask you this question. I'm sure you -- I've told this for years now. If you look out here and look out anywhere and whether God planted them or whoever may have planted them, in the natural vegetation area, do you ever see them in line? No. Not until man gets involved on an exit on 1-75 or 1-95, and you see an exit and then all of a sudden the trees go like this. MR. ABBOTT: Don't you think the road kind of constrains them? MR. SAVAGE: I don't think it has to, but it may. But agreed. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Well, in the parameters of our land Page 14 JULY 5, 2000 development code it says so many feet on center so that's how you put them. We don't have the option of cjustering which I think -- MR. SAVAGE: I would like to think we would have set an equivalent of, you see, so many feet on the center. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Perhaps that's an issue that you'd like to bring up in our-- MR. SAVAGE: Oh, my. All the landscape architects in the whole county are upset with Herb Savage and I'm glad they are because -- you know. MR. ABBOTT: Well, common item. Don't we still have the requirement for X number of trees and certain ones are worth more than others? MR. SAVAGE: Yeah. I don't think it says you have to have them in a straight line. You could put three trees -- if you get on Collier Boulevard on Marco Island in the early on days where they are grouped in areas where there was vistas on the other side of the median and you could even see a building once in awhile, but those are the things you ought look at when you're planning a community. MR. ABBOTT: If you clump them really nice, you could make a haven for the homeless. MR. SAVAGE: Absolutely. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Thank you. Are there any comments from -- Dave? MR. ELLIS: If I could make a brief announcement? I'm David Ellis from the Collier Building Industry Association. One of the things that's been a concern and it relates at least if not directly, indirectly to the Development Services Advisory Committee has been the fire plan review process that's been going on with the county and how that's done. CBIA working the fire district and fire chiefs, we have put together a task force to look at the whole process and how it's working and perhaps how it's not working in trying to evaluate what's going on in ways to improve that process and we're meeting weekly now. We started three weeks ago and we're having our third meeting tomorrow at 3:30. If you are interested in that process or being involved in that process, you're welcome to come to meetings at my office. I can't tell you when the next meeting is because we probably set Page 15 JULY 5, 2000 it at the end of that meeting, but anybody's interested in that process is welcome to come and have input. We're just trying to do the best we can. I know that at the last commission meeting there was some discussion of it. It's a really hot topic. MR. SAVAGE: Mr. Chairman, Herb Savage. I thought we had been dealing with this reevaluation of the fire situation for some years, had we not? Haven't we been going Bob Salvaggio (phonetic) and Byron? MR. ABBOTT: We thought we had put you out though, see. MR. SAVAGE: Pardon? MR. ABBOTT: Excuse me. Never mind. MR. SAVAGE: But have you -- did you realize that they had been doing that for four or five years? It still is not working very well. MR. ELLIS: Not well. Again I'm being told that and again from the turn around times from some of the reviews and there's some issues in the field of what's been approved, I think some of the things you can always expect in the process, but some of them seem to be a little more acute than you would anticipate through the normal process. MR. LONGO: Well, if I might make a comment. I -- again, I don't -- aside from some of the political issues involved between districts and this -- and development services, it seemed like it was working pretty good. And all of a sudden the review times are taking forever according to some builders and I'd like to see that. I mean, I still haven't seen exactly a tracking of different -- of different plans submitted and I'll play devil's advocate on the development service's side, because for the most port, like I was telling Ed earlier, when we turned the plan review process around, just the plan review, not the fire plan review, it was mostly getting contractors to learn how to submit their stuff accurately and on time with all the right paperwork. And I'm hearing that a lot from the fire districts. And I guess what we're hearing from the commercial builders, and you probably already know this, Vince, is that they're still not getting the same type of inspections between districts and those types of things, so they form their own task force amongst all their fire chiefs and everybody and alarm companies and everything. Page 16 JULY 5, 2000 A lot of it has to do with them getting in and contractors getting in and getting these buildings up and permits for building, but not necessarily having their fire safety systems and control systems designed all the way through. And, you know, there's some credibility to that. I'm not sure what's happening on the political issues but as far as the submittals and stuff, they have some good points. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Well, Dino, knowing a little bit about what's going on, I sat in on one of the meetings last week. MR. LONGO: I think it would be good for you to be there tomorrow if you could. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Well, I plan to be there. The fact is we did spend a fair amount of time going through this fire protection plan and all of the issues and we had numerous meetings on subcommittee and back and forth with fire and just as soon as that ordinance got implemented, you get a packet out of fire reviewers that requires items in addition to the ordinance and they won't -- they won't turn loose a permit, they won't approve it without all of these additional items. And it's somewhat irritating from my standpoint to have a permit held up where it looks bad for me as an architect knowing what should be going on. I submitted what was required by the ordinance but yet here's all of this hidden agenda stuff that leaks its way in. MR. LONGO: That's it. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Those issues along with some of the, I think, appropriate site review and site inspection items are the fair number of items that can be addressed and I think an appropriate streamlined system. MR. LONGO: So, what you're finding is all that work we did last year in subcommittee and amending the fire code ordinance to start with is they're asking for more stuff in addition to. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Other than the electronic imaging, you know. MR. LONGO: And that was the big issue. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: That was the big issue and that is not there but there are numerous other items that have come into it. MR. ABBOTT: Remember when we asked them for justifying the costs involved? MR. LONGO: Right. Page 17 JULY 5, 2000 MR. ABBOTT: And then they quit showing up. They never gave it to us and they just basically starting ignoring us is the thing and they've gotten increasingly independent from there. And this is even worse now because the whole point of what we were trying to do was to streamline it and to make ordinances that made sense. MR. LONGO: We've got a lot of builders riding the fence right now, too, because they've got a lot of money invested and into permit and process and no one wants to be a squeaky wheel because of it and you can be because you're good at it and Dalas can be and I can't because I'm not a big commercial builder so I'm not involved in the daily process. MR. ABBOTT: I'm just a remodeler but I see the problems that come from that. MR. LONGO: Well, maybe you ought to attend there, too, tomorrow -- MR. ABBOTT: I think I will. MR. LONGO: -- because right now it's peaceful, but I can see it escalating. MR. ABBOTT: Well, but somebody has to get a handle on the fire guys to make sure they do their job and they do it timely. Everybody else is held to a standard and they're the only ones that are on the outside here. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Well, I have a letter, a permit letter response, that has been held up -- this is dated July the 3rd. This is a little tenant interior. I just picked it up today. This was reviewed in a week and a half through -- through development services and rest of the time it sat waiting for fire to get to it. MR. ABBOTT: It's inexcusable. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: It's a nothing little project. It's 3,000 scare feet of TI. MR. SAVAGE: I thought -- Mr. Chairman, Herb Savage. I thought we had moved Bob Salvaggio out of this building or this department and he was working with all of the people who were involved in these districts. Who is the one who is responsible to whom, the citizens of Collier County? Is it the county? It is not. Right? It's the districts of the fire department. MR. ABBOTT: It seems -- MR. SAVAGE: It comes out of the State of Florida. MR. ABBOTT: It goes back such a long time in the county Page 18 JULY 5, 2000 and we still have independent fire districts and for the longest time the county management was trying to unify all the fire districts, you know, and get them into one thing. It looks like maybe that time has come because that's what you're supposed to get out of this and bring it under county control. And we have a county fire marshal who owes his allegiance to the building department and not to an individual fire district. That's the answer. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Who can make the decision and the fire chiefs will recognize it? MR. ABBOTT: It's a vote. Well, I think you can do things differently but I think it's maybe time for another ballot issue because it's been ten years. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: That's somebody we won't solve here. MR. CAUTERO: The construction subcommittee meeting in July? MR. ABBOTT: We can. MR. LONGO: We can. MR. CAUTERO: I think we need to invite Mr. Reilly, the new fire code official, to a meeting and I can have Ed talk to him and then contact you. You're still chairman. I can have Ed call you, our Ed, to call you right away if that's a go and we can just have a meeting, but that would be a very timely meeting. MR. LONGO: We'll probably have a better handle on it after tomorrow anyhow as far as what's really going on, who wants what. MR. CAUTERO: Right. And there's been -- there's been a lot of discussion ever since the board meeting. The last board -- the last board meeting was June 27th and the board took it up. Actually the board didn't approve the payment, the current payment, of the fire districts. They pulled an item off consent and they reduced that as an entre into this discussion because they're frustrated. They're getting the phone calls. MR. ABBOTT: From builders? MR. CAUTERO: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Lots of people. MR. CAUTERO: Well, the issue that Herb talked about again is only part of the problem. It's that never ending problem that we've been encountering for years that predates me here, and that is the difference between what the fire planner reviewer Page 19 JULY 5, 2000 says, whoever that person is, irregardless of who that person works for and the fire inspectors. That has been compounded by the point that you made, Mr. Chairman, and you hit the nail right on the head. It's the turn around time. I'm not here to point fingers. We have our own issues to deal with. That's why we came here and asked for eight new people in the building department. We continually hear about those kinds of things but that's the issue that's on the table right now. I talked to Ed Reilly about it on numerous occasions. He's given me some data. It probably would be a good idea for him to be at the meeting. I don't remember what you told me exactly, David, on how the task force was formed but there is a task force formed. MR. ELLIS: It just kind of emerged. MR. CAUTERO: Just evolved? MR. ELLIS: What happened was we went to the fire chiefs. So, I -- you'll hear me on this a lot. I evaluate problems by how many phone calls I get and I was getting phone calls. And so I called some of our commercial builders. We had a meeting. We talked about it. We still got a notice. And almost everybody shows up at the meeting, you know you've got an issue. They were concerned. The fire people were open to it. We went and actually talked to the fire chiefs at their oversight committee meeting. They said, fine, let's form a -- and they called a task force to evaluate it and we've met twice since that time. MR. LONGO: Standing room only. MR. ELLIS: And what we've been trying to do is identify the problem and the challenges and then say, okay, what is a reasonable solution? And some of these are procedural issues. And, of course, the fire folks are saying they need more staff. And perhaps that's part of it. And then, of course, in turn they relate that to funding and that may be part of it. You know, those are all the issues that I'm not trying to say -- we said to them, well, bring us back your budget. We need to know how you spend that money we send you. MR. ABBOTT: Did you get that budget? MR. ELLIS: That's tomorrow. That happened at the last meeting. That will happen tomorrow. You know, so I think Page 20 JULY 5, 2000 things are coming out of it but we're just trying to create a format. I don't care if this subcommittee takes it and runs with it. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: But one of the questions that we asked in our subcommittee previously, numbers of months ago, maybe a year ago, was 350, $380,000 a year and you have two people. What are we spending this money on? And can we do that better through some other mechanism and save money? MR. ABBOTT: Well, we pointed out, and to be very blunt about it, it looked like empire building to us. It was all new vehicles, just all sorts of stuff and increased space, extra staff. It was rather surprising for the load. We said, well, justify it to us and they would never justify it to us. MR. LONGO: Well, part of the problems I had the last two weeks, three weeks ago, in discussions was they're missing technical manuals in order to do a review. New fire alarm systems and things like that that they could not review because they didn't have technical manuals. MR. ABBOTT: But that is accessible right now through the internet. They could access it. It's child's play. MR. LONGO: I understand that. MR. ABBOTT: They ought to understand. It's their job. MR. LONGO: And the other part was not -- I think is just disorganization, I mean, just taking it from building review to fire plan review and getting it back on time aside from other issues of incomplete applications, these type of things. But I was -- I was a little appalled to hear Mr. Reilly say that they don't have technical manuals for fire alarm systems and things like that. MR. ABBOTT: And all that you will -- the technical manuals are generally already approved. It's packaged type deals. You cite it and you -- as an architect, don't you just give a reference? CHAIRMAN DISNEY: You just give a reference to it. MR. ABBOTT: See. I mean, it's a done deal. MR. ELLIS: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry that my comment may have put us beyond your record. MR. SAVAGE: Excellent comment. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: No, it was a worthwhile discussion. MR. ELLIS: If anybody does want to have anymore input and we will -- whatever we come up with if it ends up backing up Page 21 JULY 5, 2000 also, the committee is great. It just kind of-- it just happened and all of a sudden we had this group and it's working, so if anybody would like to come tomorrow it's at 3:30 in my office. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Great. If there are no other comments, we'll motion for adjournment. MR. ABBOTT: I'll make it. MR. LONGO: Second. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: All those in favor, say aye. MR. SAVAGE: You didn"t ask if anybody was opposed. CHAIRMAN DISNEY: Any opposed? The meeting is adjourned. There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 4:23 p.m. DEVELOPMENT SERVICES ADVISORY COMMITTEE DALAS DISNEY, CHAIRMAN TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC., BY ROSE M. WITT, NOTARY PUBLIC Page 22