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BCC Minutes 10/23/1991 S(2)COLLIER COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS UNIFIED LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE PUBLIC HEARING (Continuation from October 16, 1991) October 23, 1991 7:30 p.m. Third Floor Boardroom Collier County Courthouse Naples, Florida 33962 Reported by{ Christina J. Reynoldson Deputy Official Court Reporter Notary Public State of Florida at Large TELE: OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Carrothers Reporting Service, Inc. 20th Judicial Circuit- Collier County 3301 East Tamiami Trail Naples, Florida 33962 (813) 732-2700 FAX: (813) 774-6022 APPEARANCES BOARD MEMBERS: P. Anne Goodnight - Chairman Max A. Hasse - County Commissioner Burr Saunders - County Commissioner Richard Shanahah - County Commissioner Michael Volpe - County Commissioner STAFF: Ken Baginski - Planning Services Manager Frank Brutt- Community Development Administrator Barbara Cacchione - Growth Plannin~ Department Ken Cuyler - County Attorney Martha Howell - Assistant County Attorney John Madajewski - Project Review Services Manager William Merrill - Consultant to the County Tom Olliff - Administrative Assistant to County Manager David Pettrow - Development Services Director Jennifer Pike - Ac~inistrative Assistant to County Manager Marjorie Student - Assistant County Attorney Byron Tomlinson - Sheriff's Office SPEAKERS: Bruce Anderson Gary Beardsl ey Garry Bey rent Jeff Brown Hank B uckhannan Barbara Cawl ey Bill Coe Gene Cox Robert Duane Michael Fernandez Ellin Goetz Tom Henning Bill Hoover Linda Lawson Pam MacKie Mark Morton Lee Nichols Tony Pires, Jr. Dwight Richardson Don Segreto Sidney Showalter Matt Tari Tony Varano 2 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 order. you? PROCEEDINGS CMAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I called the meeting back to Would you get up to the podium so I can talk to All right. The way that I understand it, we have completed Article I. MR. BRUTT.. Yes, ma'am. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: We are now on Article II and there's on/y a few items that we have left that we need to discuss. Is there any of those items in there that are controversial? MR. BRUTT.' What I would like to do -- Frank Brutt, Community Development Services Administrator, for the ~ecord. On Monday evening, we had a very extensive discussion on the C-4, C-5 issue. we've also had very extensive discussion on the model home issues. What I would like to ask is that the board concur with my suggestion that we allow the staff to have an additional week to work out the specific details and desires both from the staff and from the public that spoke on the C-4, C-5 issue and also give us anothe~ week for the staff to OFFICIAL OOURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c work with the home builders, real estate people to deal with the model home. If we could agree to give the staff an additional week on both of those issues and announce right at the beginning that we feel we have sufficient input from all parties on those two issues and put those aside and move ahead with Section II and Section III, I think it would be beneficial for both the public and the staff and yourselves. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Is there a time that you can set now to hold the public workshop to work these problems out? MR. BRUTTz You have a public workshop at 5:05 a week from tonight for your next hearing. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: And that's supposed to be our final hearing, isn't it? (Commissioner Saunders entered the board room. ) MR. BRUTT: That is correct. And what I'm suggesting and Ken probably will mention the fact that we're allocating staff time to meet with the groups and I'll relay back to Ken. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: What you' re saying now is that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 the staff -- there's not going to really be a public workshop. Staff is allocating time to work with the public as they have concerns on these items that you have discussed and at the time of our next hearing on the 30th then you're going to bring back the recommendations from the negotiations with the public. MR. BRUTT: That is correct. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Mr. Brutt, if I might question, you know there are only two or three very small things that have to be really hammered out between the public and our staff. You're aware of that. MR. BRUTT: Other than the C-4 or C-5 and model homes, sir? COMMISSIONER HASSE: There's a limitation of what you have to do in C-4 and C-5. MR. BRUTT: Right. COMMISSIONER HASSE: The people can explain that to you and as long as you know when you can tell them to meet with you. That's the important thing, the communication. I don't want to hear that they didn't know this. There is something about the model home timing, the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 length of time that they're permitted to stay there and extend that time. MR. BRUTTz We can establish a set time between today and next Monday. Let's say a four-hour period of time that the staff can meet on either one of those two issues at the convenience of -- MR. BASINSKI: I just want to interrupt. Ken Baginski. We have got a meeting set up for 1:30 Friday to discuss the C-4 and the C-5 at the Development Services building. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Friday of this week? MR. BAGINSKI~ Yes, sir. C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: where's the meeting going to be held? MR. BA~INSKI~ Development Services in Conference Rocm C. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Nothing has been set up on the model home issue at this point in time? MR. BAGINSKI: No. I have prepared another draft with some different considerations and proposals on the model home. I provided that to the interested parties. They have responded. Based on that response, it was both OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c- of our agreement that we would get together again before or try and discuss it and further work out or negotiate those points before we b[ought it back to you on the 30th. COMMISSIONER HASSE: You couldn't incorporate it at the same time you have the other items, C-4 and 5? MR. BAGINSKIz I don't think that would be a good idea, sir. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Okay. MR. BASINSKI: But we have communicated with them. They have expressed their desire to meet with the staff and further go over the model homes, models sales. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Fine. The important thing is that the communications that there is ample time for people to talk to you about both of those issues. They're very big issues, very important issues and certainly the input is absolutely necessary. MR. B;~SINSKI: Yes, sir, I understand. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Do you have the time scheduled now for both of these meetings? MR. BAGINSKI: No, sir, I do not. COMMISSIONER HASSE: You do have it on C-4 and 5? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c_ here? MR. BI~INSKI: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Give it to me, please. MR. BAGINSKI{ 1:30 Friday. COMMISSIONER HASSE: At your offices or where, in MR. BAGINSKI: At our offices on Horseshoe Drive. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Do you have enough room? MR. BAGINSKI: Um, I think we can sit about 25 or 30 people. Beyond that, I think we're going to run into trouble, yeah. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right, Ken. What about landscaping? There's some problems with the landscaping as I understand it. MR. BAGINSKI: Not that I'm aware of, ma'am. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Then all the landscaping problems have been solved? MR. BAGINSKI: The landscaping problems that were discussed at the Planning Commission, we met with individuals. We've made the changes, brought those to the Planning Commission and then from my recollection the Planning Commission's forwarding to you the unanimous recommendation for approval. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 2 CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: COMMISSIONER HASSE: model homes? MR. BAGINSKI: No, sir, Ken? You don't have the time on the I do not, but I will contact the representative of that group first thing in the morning. I talked with her this afternoon before the meeting. We both agreed that we would want to get down and discuss it, but we did not set a time. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: I think there is a considerable n~nber of people here tonight, Ken, that are interested in that particular section. COMMISSIONER HASSE: And I wish you would convey to me what time it is going to be, also. MR. BASINSKI.. As soon as it's set up, sir, I will do that. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Thank you. COMMISSIONER VOLPE= Mr. Baginski, Mr. Brutt, I'd like to talk just a little bit about the process. The CCPC met, as I recall, on Monday evening and spent considerable amount of time discussing these issues. Have those issues been res~lved to the satisfaction of the CCPC with a recommendation to this board? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c c c. lO MR. BAGINSKI: Yes and no. There was some changes, for example, recommended on the model homes. The vote out of these six atterding individuals was a split vote for change and therefore that represents a recommendation for denial on the changes and it's coming to you as originally drafted or proposed. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: But we do have this evening -- what I'm trying to get at is some discussion about staff working out problems with the public and I think that's very important. I think communication's very important. But we've got a process here and I'm not sure that I want to thwart that process and -- I mean, these people have come this evening to talk about a [ecommendation that comes from our CCPC. (Applause from the audience. ) So what I'm having a problem with, and it's a problem for me, is I don't kn~ what the issues are. And I'd understood -- I know a little bit about C-4, C-5 and I know a little bit about w~at the £ecommendation was. I know a little bit about someone saying maybe. you ought to take industrial out of C-4 and C-5. I know a little bit about that, but I'm not particularly happy with you OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 11 meeting in your office with a select group of people, whoever they may be - everyone is invited, I'm not suggesting that it's behind closed doors - and that we don't get a chance to hear that until all the problems have been resolved. So I mean, I'd like to have, with the indulgence of board, I mean, we can keep everyone's comments brief, identify the issue and move forward. Mr. Merrill's here. This is a continuation of a public hearing. I mean, I just think these people are entitled to take a little bit of time and, you know, maybe we don't need five minutes for everybody but, you know. CHAIRMA}; GOODNIGHT: I'm not arguing the fact that -- and your point is well taken. The problem is simply this~ The people are going to stand up here tonight; they're going to tell us what their problems are; we're goin9 to turn around to staff and we're going to say, tell staff to work their problems out. So, I mean, to me it seems like that it would be more workable if staff can work with the individuals or the groups and solve their problems and then if there's. something that cannot be solved, then bring it back to us OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 12 on the next wednesday night to where we can then solve the problem. I mean, I'm willing to sit here and listen to each individual discuss it, but if we' re going to turn around and tell staff, This is a problem, you need to work it out when staff has already told us that this is a problem, then I find that to be not productive. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Here's my problem, Madam Chairman. I don't mean to be argument~ti~_. We have a recommendation from the CCPC. We've got a room full of people. Our staff takes direction from us. And so I would like to at least hear -- we've got an impasse, apparently, at CCPC. I would think that staff needs some direction from us. I mean, otherwise if you work it out and there are no problems, then we should really not raise any questions ] %ter on next week because all those problems have been resolved. MR. BRUTT: Mr. Volpe, let's be truthful. In the 70 hours, 70 meetings which probably ran four and five hours of time, each one, with the advisory committee that we met with, problem, problem, problem, discussions, controversy, were all worked out in the document that was OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 3 13 brought to you. What we're saying is -- maybe I'm being a little short on this, but I really doubt that what you will hear tonight on the C-4, C-5 can be any way different or expanded of all of the discussion of five hours of listening to the public on Monday night from five o'clock to eleven o'clock. On the model homes, I think we have a committee that we're working with and I think that also very productively can be laid out, their desires, the staff's desires, those parts that are an impasse can be brought to you the same way we've been doing through the entire process. Here's the staff sheet. Here's the consultant's sheet. Here's the committee sheet. Those items that we can agree on, we agree on. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Madam Chairman? CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Yes. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I tend to agree with you in We've got -- how many people are here on the model par t. home issue alone? COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: The whole room. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 3 14 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I think what we need to do is kind of a combination of what Commissioner Volpe has suggested and what Commissioner Goodnight has suggested. I'd like to hear from one or two spokesmen for the group on the model home thing. I realize there's.no committee, but obviously there's somebody who's familiar with the issue and perhaps can tell us what the issue is from the prospective of the real estate agents and the realtors and the developers. Then I'd like to hear Mr. Brutt's comments on where there's a difference and then perkaps the commission can give Mr. Brutt so~e direction on how we want that issue resolved through some additional meetings as opposed to having 20 or 30 people speak and then by 9:30 we'd be sitting here trying to draft language. I don't think that'll work. But I would like to hear what the issue is and then direct Mr. Brutt on how -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHTs We heard all of the speakers or a number of the speakers last Wednesday night on model homes and I thought that we had directed staff to work with them to solve the issues and now staff is saying that these issues still have not been resolved and what OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 15 they would like to do is to continue to meet with this group. I mean, whatever is the pleasure of the board. I mean, my only concern is the fact that, you know, we're going to sit here and listen to the public and then we' re going to turn around and we're going to tell staff to work with them to solve the problems. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, I'm not sure. Perhaps we need to go a little further with staff in terms of the solution to the problem. So I think we should hear, you know -- they've had an opportunity ~o meet for a week. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: One of the other things, too, you know, this board gave staff specific instructions also as to what they expected you to, staff, to come back with as well. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I think that's right. MR. MERRILL: And it's not a matter of not being -- it's beyond that, an impasse. The staff is not at an impasse with anyone. We just haven't had the time to do it. we've been in meetings here the whole time. We had a meeting Monday night and so really -- when was our last OFFICIAL OOURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 3 16 meeting here, Wednesday? MR. BRUTT.' Wednesday. MR. MERRILL: So I mean, we've been scrambling just trying to get language done, and Mr. Baginski's been working up the language and I believe it's just a'matter of we Just haven't had the time to get it finished. I don't believe that you've run into any impasse at this point. MR. BAGINSKI~ Well, as I said, a draft, particularly cnncerning the models home has been provided. Nc~, that was completed late yesterday, discussed it with other individuals with the staff, forwarded it when it was done or as soon as it was done to representatives who spoke here last week. There's still apparently problems and things to discuss and as I said, I spoke with them this afternoon and they agreed that we would set up meetings and further discuss what those points are and hopefully come to an agreement. Again, it's not that-- I don't think anybody's stonewalling arnyone or we've reached an impasse. We've got another draft and it's a matter of trying to -- OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 4 c c 17 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Did the CCPC have an opportunity to review at Monday's hearing -- all I'm trying to get into is that's right, we had a public hearing last week and, you know, we did spend time and gave some direction. We spent some time listening to the public and you went back and you tried to incorporate that direction into some, an ordinance, into the ordinance. Is that what the CCPC heard on Monday night? MR. BAGINSKI: No, sir. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So the CCPC hasn't even heard it yet. MR. BRUTT~ It wasn't finished yet. We met Wednesday and -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE~ Okay. All right. I understand. So does that mean then that this is an issue that won't be debated then before the CCPC? MR. BRUTT: That's right. They concluded -- let me give you the summation of what they did. Except the sheets that Bill has are the agreed upon activities and discussion that took place on Monday night. They have worked those out. Basically, the action of the Planning Commission - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 4 C- C: 18 correct me if I misstate this - was to accept Article I and Article II, Article III, IV, V and VI for passing on to you for consideration of passage less the few items in which we were still discussing, C-5, C-4 and the model homes. The rest of the document, after we went through from five to eleven o'clock, they basically said they' re satisfied with that document with the changes that were being worked out as we went through the process on Monday night. MR. MERRILLz Frank is correct. It was approved 6-0 k~ the Planning Commission with the exception of those two issues because we'd indicated that we were working on the language on the model homes based on the direction from the board and that we were still working on the C-5, C-6. Their direction was to change it back to the C-5 with the elimination of the industrial and then convert, you know, make up for the difference on the C-4. COMMISSIONER HASSE: By "industrial," what are you talking about? Every industrial, I can understand. But somebody that is assembling screens and storm windows and such as that, and I don't know of one right now, but that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 4 19 is a very light industrial and it's possibly even conside red manufacturing. MR. MERRILL: The large majority of the people as I recall that spoke against the C-5 or the elimination of C-5 were primarily repair .~hops. That was a large majority, repair shops. And there was also a group about the storage of heavy equipment. MR. BRUTT: The rent-all. MR. MERRILL: The rent-all places. Those were the two primary concerns in the whole -- on that whole issue, and they were all out in Golden G~te. I believe there was one fellow from Marco, but othe[ than that it was entirely Golden Gate. But we will be -- the direction that we have, the marching orders that staff has is to change it back to the original, except eliminate the manufacturing uses and I believe CCPC directed elimination of manufacturing and Barb, what were the other ones? COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: To take them out of C-5, Bill? MR. MERRILL~ Take them out of C-5 and put them into industrial. OFFICIAL OOURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 20 MR. BAGINSKI: Basically to remove those extremely heavy and industrial uses under the C-5, put them into the industrial like we had originally proposed, reinserr basically a strip-down, and I use that phrase loosely, strip-down in terms of moving the manufacturing and the industrial uses out of the C-5. MR. MERRILL~ And so I think that's just a matter of mechanics of getting it together. time. MR. BAG INSKI: already done that. It just takes some I would point out that we have I've got revised drafts on C-4, removing those heavy uses that everyone was worried about, putting them back into the C-5 and we've already got a draft of the C-5 district that will be brought to you. But again, I mean, we' re talking about something We haven't been able to talk that's Just been completed. with anybody about it. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: It sounds like you' re heading in the right direction insofar as the C-4, C-5 industrial concerns, at least based upon this very, you know, thumbnail sketch you've just given here. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 4 c: c: 21 MR. BAGINSKI.. I just want to tell you that we're all trying to burn the midnight oil to bring it back to you. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: I understand that. I guess the only concern I have is it looks about 90 percent of the room is here tonight to talk about model homes. And, you know, giving an opportunity for one or two people to speak, I think would be beneficial to everybody, Madam Chairman, so, you knc~, I would encourage that we at least do that. COMMISSIONER HASSE: I might suggest that the speakers that do come up here representative of the entire model home group should highlight on what their main concerns are, and I have a fair idea what they are, because they have not evidently reviewed what you have come up with. Everybody knc~;s it? Can you get a couple speakers together that you want to represent the entirety rather than 25? MR. OLLIFF: Mrs. Chairman? CHAIRMAN GOODN IGHT: Yes? MR. OLLIFF.. There is at least a representative OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 5 22 here of the Board of Realtors and the president of the board's asked him to come and speak on behalf of the board. Maybe we could at least start with that speaker and if he doesn't cover an item or two, then so~nebody else who feels like he missed something could come up. COMMISSIONER $}~ANAHAN: Sounds like a winner. MR. OLLIFF, Mr. Nichols? MR. NICHOLS: Good evening. My name is Lee shouldn't be. may. Nichols. I'm a former president of the Naples Area Board of Realtors. I'm also and have been for years on the legislative committee both on the State and local a[ea. I think the problem that you have here is being approached with a shotgun approach as opposed to a rifle. You're scattering to too many things that really I'm going to give a couple examples, if I In 2.6.34.2, "Models shall be of a temporary nature and used for the showing and display to potential buyers. Models may or may not be located within a development under construction, but shall not . . ." shall not, and this should be, "be used for business office(s) for real estate transactions, building contractors, developers or OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 5 c_ 23 any other commercial activity." The real estate business is that business. We are required by Florida law under the Florida Real Estate Commission to have a business office license for every single place where we are selling real estate, where we use that as a head quarters to show our merchandise and where we do do transactions. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Nichols, would it be safe to say that if you were prohibited from sales that are off-site, not associated with a particular development where the model is but you were permitted to conduct any other business activitie,s associated with the particular development for which the model has been established, would that be satisfactory? I know we've had some question or some problems with models, on-site models being used as real estate offices to sell properties off-site. MR. NIf/~OLS: That's what I was getting at. That was the rifle approach that should have been used on that. If you want to target that, fine. But to blanket the entire real estate industry in essence, by doing that, that is totally unfair. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 · 5 c c c 24 COMMISSIONER SA/JNDERS: Mr. Baginski, on that particular issue, is that -- what are you trying to or what evil are you trying to eliminate by your language? Is it the off-site sales or is it something else? MR. BAGINSKI: Yes. As -- you know, I would point out that we had recently within the last six months two administrative appeals specifically on that point with sales, real estate offices or models being used for off-site sales and I would respectfully point out that the board upheld that opinion and during those acYainistrative appeals furthered tile suggestion that that was not the intent to provide real estate offices for sales outside of the development or anywhere -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. We understand that. The question is, is that what you' re trying to get it? MR. BAGINSKI: Yes. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: If that's what you' re trying to get it, the board has alread~t agreed that that type of activity we would prohibit, but the other activities associated with the development for which the model's been established would be permitted. So it seems OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 5 Ci 25 to me this would be a relatively easy -- (Audience responded in the negative.) MR. B~SINSKI: Here you may have an impasse. MR. NICHOLS: You may very well have. I think that we must have complete access to these sales outlets under Florida law. Under the supervision of the Florida Real Estate Commission, we are required to have a branch office, and this specifically says branch office. That is not as contrast to Florida law. Now, if you want to have a fight with the State on it, I don't know if you can do that or not. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Let me just pursue that a second so that I understand. MR. NI(~OLS.. Yes. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: If what you've said is a realtor or a broker has to have a license for a branch office, -- MR. NICHOLS: Correct. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: -- I think -- are you saying like with one of our, one of the larger real estate offices in town that if what they wanted to do was to open up an office, a branch office in a model home, that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 5 26 that's something that you would like to see happen? MR. NICHOLS: What they do is this: The developer chooses someone to merchandise his product. They -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: To sit in a model. MR. NICHOLS: Pardon? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: To sit in a model. MR. NICHOLS: That's correct. That model must have, under Florida law, the Florida Real Estate Co~unission rules and regulations, it must have a business office license, which is issued by the county. By the State, I mean. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Do you mean, Mr. Nichols, that if a developer of one of our larger subdivisions wants to have an independent realtor, not an owner where he has his own staff or he does that but ~ather would have a separate entity come in and market his product, how would you envision that would work under what you're describing to us? MR. NICHOLS: That's the way it's been done, customarily done. I've only been in the real estate business 21 years, but that has been done in that fashion for that 21 years, as far as I know. That is-- OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 CZ C. C 27 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: How long then would that be contin -- how long would you continue to operate that as a model sales center? MR. NICHOLS: Until the development or whatever it is is sold out. Now, there may be a move to a newer model if it were to take a longer time. And I understand most of the time rules that you've put in here, there's one exception which I -- seeing there will be fewer speakers I would like to bring up, but whatever time it takes to sell out. It's not usually that long because most developments are not of megasize. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Is it fair to say that you' re more concerned with an attempt to regulate the type of activity that takes place within the model home than you are necessarily the length of time? MR. NICHOLS: The length of time isn't as important as the type of activity because this specifically says no transactions. And as you kn~w, Mr. Volpe, when you accept a down payment on a home and they sign that contract, you have entered in a transaction. That is strictly forbidden, as I interpret this, and as the FREC lawyers that I talked to today interpret it. That is a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 28 transaction. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Is this the only part of the section that you have a problem with, just that language? Okay. MR. NICHOLS .. No. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: There's others as well. MR. BRUTT.. One of the things that's interesting, and I was talking Mr. Workman (phonetic) in the hall, if the person who is constructing the models, we' re dealing with a builder who is constructing models and has several models in a row, that person does not hire a real estate agent, but his secretary happens to be sitting there and I walk in and say Mr. Kay does very nice work. I'd like to see his models. And the young lady picks up the keys and says, I'll accompany you to these four or five models, and the person s~ts, I would like to buy or I would like to have Mr. Kay construct model C on a lot that I will choose and comes back and informs her boss that that individual likes him to duplicate that model, my understanding is there is no reason to have a real estate license for that person to merely show the wares OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 29 of her employer. (Audience responds in the negative.) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Madam Chairman, I'd like to ask the audience to -- I'd like to ask the audience to sh~w a little courtesy. we're going to try to conduct a public hearing, but I can assure you without any hesitation at all that those types of outbursts will not inert to your benefit. I guarantee you that. So if you'll be a little courteous. If you disagree with them, you have an opportunity to speak. MR. BRUTT: What we discussed out in the hall was that the builder may desire to empl¢~y someone else, be that person a real estate agent. But I don't think there's any law that says that an employee of the builder can't walk a potential buyer of that particular model down and show it to them and bring them back to her employer and say Mr. Jones wants to buy that model if you build it. There's no real reason that we can come up with that a real estate salesperson needs to be working in that particular development for a builder to show -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Frank, on the other hand, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 7 c c c' 3O I'm not so sure that there's any particular reason why we should prohibit that. It's an activity that's occurred in real estate models for decades and I don't know -- I don't kn~ that I understand the thing that you' re trying to prohibit by the statements that you've made. MR. BRUTT: Okay. What we' re saying is and we have iljustrations of it and we have complaints coming in of people that are using model homes and conducting real estate activities outside. It's just like I asked Mr. Workman. If the person that he showed the four models to came back and said, This builder really builds great buildings but I want a mediterranean style home, he doesn't build them. Is that person who is a licensed real estate agent going to say, I'm sorry, I can only represent Mr. Kay, this is what he builds, end of transaction? Or does he carry into the next p~ase of saying, I'm in the real estate business. I can find you something else and thereby immediately start utilizing that model home as a real estate sales office. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Didn't this come up-- MR. NICHOLS: May I? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 7 31 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Just to put it in the context for me, and I'm sorry. Originally, as I recall, we had an administrative appeal and it was done on Hide Away Beach and we were talking about the application of an existing ordinance and we found that in fact there was a violation of the existing ordinance and that what we also learned in that process was that there were a number of instances where there was a violation of an existing ordinance but that we had not, for whatever reasons, those ordinances had not been enforced and we found a violation and we agreed that we would abate the enforcement of the ordinance in order to develop some more substantial standards to regulate this activity. MR. BRUTT: There were two things in that. Originally, they were selling property off-site and second time we came back and said yes, they were selling property on-site in the total develo.~ment and that new regulations were being drawn up and would be brought to you as part of the ULDC as they are right now. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So we agreed about the sale and the example that Mr. Nichols gives, the sale -- you've got an office, you've got certain activity and OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 7 ¢ 32 he's not suggesting that you have to be able to sell property off-site; is that correct? MR. NICHOLS: We don' t -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Do we agree on that? MR. NICHOLS: If we have the opportunity to .make a later appointment after our obligation is fulfilled to the developer to show someone something else, we're going to do it because we're licensed to sell anywhere in the State of Florida. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: But would you have a computer terminal there where you could put up and say, Well, this is a very nice location, but -- MR. NIC~OLSz No, not usually. I don't know of any that have a computer terminal. There may be a few. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Okay. MR. NICHOLS: But that's not customary. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Is that the type of activity that you would like to see allowed in these -- MR. NICHOLS: No, that's not their purpose. It generally doesn't happen. I have had probably a dozen of these of my own and it doesn't happen. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So the principal purpose, OFFICIAL OOURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 33 though, would be to sell product within the particular subdivision. MR. NIf~OLS That is correct. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: And not off-site. MR. NICHOLS: That's correct. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: How about resale within the existing subdivision? MR. NICHOLS.. That brings it into that same outside category. You are there to service the builder and developer of that property and his product. That's your sole purpose for being there. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: But resale -- MR. NICHOLS: If you go after something later on because of a conversation, that is perfectly permitted under State law. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Maybe I didn't make myself clear. The question really is resale of propert7 within a subdivision. MR. NICHOLS: you're there for. not very often. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: It's legal. It's not the purpose It does happen from time to time, but Is that the type of activity OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 7 C' ¢ 34 that you think should be permitted in one of these sales centers on a -- MR. NICStOLS~ No. But, it can happen but it just plain doesn't happen. They're there to look at what they're seeing as a.new product offered to them and that's why they came there. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: And how about rentals? Would the office handle rentals within that particular subdivision? MR. NICHOLS ~ And it should not be disallowed. It would be legal to do so, but that To the best of my knowledge, What we' re talking about is would not be their purpose. it's never come up. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: legal for a licensed real estate office is one issue. I think that's what you're telling us. And I guess what we're asking is under our ordinance dealing with model homes and model sales centers what type of activity is it that we want to try to regulate. And it came up in the context of Hide Away Beach and in that discussion the attorney who is representing a particular person and maybe you weren't here at the time, he pointed out that he'd gone around and he'd found a number of what he OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 7 c_ 35 perceived to be violations of an existing ordinance. And I'll use Wyndemere as an example, which is where I live. There's a sales office on-site and they handle rentals. They handle resales. They handle new product. And the project is almost sold out. So the question is what do you do with the locations like Wyndemere? How long does that sales office remain at that particular location to handle resales of an existing development? MR. NICHOLS~ I would say until they' re sold out. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So then the issue came up in the context, since you apparently weren't here during that discussion, it's always possible that if the developer controls the rea't~,, company, he can always hold out one lot, not that a~ybod~ would do that, but there's always that possibility that he would hold out that one lot and so this could exist in perpetuity, so we begin to talk about percentages of build-out. And at what point in time does this "quasi-commercial" operation become incompatible with a residential neighborhood? And that's an issue -- that's an issue -- not a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 36 realtor's issue. ~R. NI(~OLS~ Right. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: That's an issue of a property owner. Okay. And there's probably no property owners here tonight. There's one. Okay. So what we' re trying to identify as I think. Ccm%missioner Saunders pointed out, A, the issue or the problem that we're trying to address and then how it is that we can work together to accommodate the legitimate concerns of people who have a project who are there to sell it and what's the best way of marketing their new project. MR. NIf~OLS~ transactions. COMMISSIONER VOLPE~ It isn't by saying there will be no I understand that. MR. NICHOLS: Just a moment. I'm not yielding at this point. I would like to say that we have an expert here. Linda Lawson is a former Florida Real Estate Commission attorney and I would like to have her address one of the questions you asked but I would like to come back for just a moment to do something for another one of our members who probably won't get a chance to speak. MR. BASINSKI.. The only thing that I was saying is OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c c~ 37 during the conversation this afternoon, I have already agreed to remove that language and we' re talking about it for the last half hour. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: The language in question here, Ken, the no c~mmercial actiuity? MR. BAGINSKI: Right. That we agreed to revise that language dealing with real estate transactions, on-site. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAIg: What are we beating a dead horse for then? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Because right now the only issue really is real estate transactions for off-site. COMMISSIONER HASSE: That's not true. That's not the only issue. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Are we going to hear from Linda the expert? MS. LAWSON~. Why not? For the record, Linda Lawson. I am here representing the Collier Building Industry Association. And it is true that some number of years ago I was an attorney with the Attorney General's Office assigned to Florida Real Estate Commission. And I do know Chapter 475 and the rules adopted OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 38 pursuant to it pretty well. And when I saw Mr. Workman walking in tonight with his FREC handbook under his arm, I knew why he was bringing it, and it is because of a rule adopted by the Real Estate Commission that creates a dilem~a for these people and that rule requires that any place that a real estate broker engages in real estate transactions or anyplace where the public perceives that that broker is engaged in the business of conducting a real estate brokerage must be licensed as a branch office pursuant to FREC rules. This is a standard long -- a rule of long-standing. And when Mr. Workman stated that he had talked to a FREC attorney today on that point, I mentioned to him that that was the same response that I had given some ten years ago when I got those sort of calls as a FREC attorney. The rule is there. What it would require is that when a builder hires a realtor to sit a model and sell that model for that builder and no other models of any other builders, that broker must license that model as a branch office under FREC rules. And I believe that once you license it as a branch office under FREC rules, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c~ ¢ 9 39 you're also going to get into having to get a county occupational license. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So what does that mean? I understand that says a branch office has to get a license. MR. CUYLER.. Could I ask one question? That doesn't mean that the Board of County Commissioners cannot regulate from the land use perspective the activities that take place, even if that is a business office. In other words, the Board of County Cc~unissioners can say you can conduct on-site sales but not off-site sales and you can still have a business license. Do you disagree with that? MS. LAWSON: Right. I don't disagree with that. think that when we get to the point of saying okay if realtors have to have a branch office at a model, and I think that all reasonable people might agree that that is what we need to allow them to do to conduct their business, I think we're getting to the point of splitting hairs if we say that, Well, you can sell that model there for that builder but if he wants that built in the subdivision across the street, you have to go sit in the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 40 car and talk to him about it. I think we're getting to the point of absurdity. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, I think that discussion came up and I used specifically Hawk's R. idge as an example because they had property on one side of Airport Road and property -- they're going to have property on the other side of Airport Road and I go to Hawk's Ridge and I don't find something I like. Could they sell me something in Gray Oaks? Presumably they can if you're working for the same developer. But in those instances, you've got the developer that controls the realty company. And I see that as a different situation where you've got the developer who controls the realty company than when you've got a small developer who goes out and hires a realtor to sit them out because what Mr. Workman may feel as well, you know, you're talking about a branch office, but it doesn't seem to me to be equitable and fair that someone could set up a real estate office in a model to conduct his activity in a low rent district as opposed to going into a commercial area of the county. So you're saying primary as opposed to a branch OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 41 off ice? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You can't have a primary office in a residential. MS. LAWSON.. Right. The folks that I talked to, their main concern is the ability to sit that model for that builder and do what they need to do and both for the builder to sell his product and to keep their license in good standing with FREC. And to do that, they have to have it licensed as a branch office. Does that then get them into a position as Mr. Brutt fears that they can sell anything anywhere in Collier County? Probably so. You heard Mr. Nichols say that that's the exception, not the rule, and I think you ought to give a little bit of good faith and credit to the industry. The evil that he's concerned with is the secretaries and the MLS computers and the whole nine yards of a principal office in a mode] and I think we've got the industry agreeing that that's an abusive situation. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Miss Lawson, let me make a statement and ask you a question and bear with me because I'm thinking as I'm going along here and it may come out OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 42 sounding rather absurd. I haue no problem at all with the human nature which is if you go into a model and you take a look around and you decide you don't want to buy anythin9 in that development or you don't like that model, I don't have any problem with the prospective purchaser saying to the real estate agent, Do you have anything else you can show me, anything else we can talk about? That's going to happen. And no matter of regulation is going to prevent it and I don't think we should try to prevent it. MS. LAWSON.. I agree with you. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: And so that's going to happen. There are going to be other transactions that take place. The -- I guess the real evil that we' re trying to get at is the specter of a model home being advertised as a real estate office for the general sale of real estatu. If we -- perhaps we can get to this problem by. saying we recognize that the offices can be set up principally for the sale of units in the development, sale and resale of units in the development and other transactions associated with that deve]oI~nent, but that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 43 the office cannot be advertised in any way as a general real estate office. It can only be advertised as an office for that particular model. Perhaps that way people will not be attracted to the model for purposes of general real estate transactions not associated with the devel oI~e nt. I would have no problem in trying to regulate it fro~ that perspective to avoid the big problem that I think Mr. Brutt and Mr. Baginski are attempting to get at. But I think an effort to try and stop a very human nature of people talking about other real estate when they're talking to a realtor isn't going to work anyway. Would that be an approach that might be acceptable to the real estate community? MS. LAWSONz I'd like Mr. Nichols or some of the other realtors h~re to respond to that. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: An{] i~ it legal. MS. LAWSON: Generally I agree with you that we really can't regulate that v~ry natural thing that's going to occur of talking about something else in the event that the initial draw p~oduct is not sold. And I think that's going to happen, but I don't OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 10 44 think that that's the routine situation and I don't think we have to worry about regulating it. And if advertising is a problem -- I don't perceive advertising models, myself, as a problem. I look at the ads quite a bit and I don't see models generally held out as real estate offices. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: No, but I think that what we're to prohibit is that possibility. And maybe that's the way of regulating it without us getting into the actual -- MS. LAWSON: One of the things that has been discussed at some of the previous meetings and discussions on this topic is the enfo[cement mechanism which Mr. Brutt's staff has to go out and shut down somebody who is running a principal office out of a model. And I think that that's a very good point, that if there is somebody out there in an isolated incident that is abusing the rules, and that may happen no matter what ordinance we pass, then the proper approach at a certain point is an enforcement mechanism, not a preventive measure that throws the baby out with the bath water. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 45 COMMISSIONER HASSE: Ms. Lawson, if I may ask, you kn(~, you're gearing yourself and I see everybody, Mr. Nichols is one, gearing themselves towards the subdivision sale. Well, that's not the only place that a model home is established, i ' a subdivision. We have many model homes that are established in an area -- for instance, let's look at an area of some six, seven hundred square miles in Golden Gate Estates area or through that area there's lots for sale, a builder wishes to build a house on it and so he's got a model that he wants to show people. what's wrong with that? And why shouldn't it be continued? MS. LAWSON: I think the popular sentiment is that there's nothing wrong with that and as long as we don't put that model inbetween three or four existing residential units-- and the builde. rs have and the developers have testified that it is not to their business advantage to put a model inbetween existing residential units. COMMISSIONER HASSE: That's true. This doesn't mean that it's a subdivision. This is a big subdivision if you want to call it that. But what I'm saying is OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 46 there are people that are doing that. And there's nothing in my mind that's w~ong with that at all. And what we're looking at is a builder building the area, his own hn~es out in the estates. Maybe you've got to treat that area completely different from the rest. But I can assure you the builder does not profit if he's going to antagonize his neighbor. And I know a couple of these builders who have built their models and are sitting in their models selling models, selling houses that they're building in the Estates that would put an area of a good part of Collier County to shame the way they're keeping these models. And I can say that without any reservation. And the people in the neighborhood, that neighborhood are proud to have them there. MS. LAWSONs I have talked -- it's true that this afternoon I did have an opportunity to talk to Mr. Baginski about the language that he has drafted that we had received earlier in the afternoon and he is agreeable to sitting down with us and working on the language. I think that your point is a very good one in terms of what is a subdivision, what is a development? Is OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 10 47 Marco Islar~ a development for purposes of the 80 percent rule that we' re looking at now? A lot of loose language here that maybe needs to be tightened up so we can go forward with something that makes sense, that we understand. And your point is a very good one in terms of what is the subdivision, what is the development? COMMISSIONER HASSE: All I'm going to say is I see here for two years they may have this here model there and they may be granted two one-year extensions. Well, suppose they' re happy with what they' re doing in there and they're moving forward to develop the Golden Gate Estates like they want to develop them. We all want it developed. Supposing they're not finished. MS. LAWSON: I think one of the things that we can talk about when we have our meeting is back to the concept that at a certain point, whether it's at the end of the two years or at the end of four years, that that builder would come in for the conditional use permit to extend it longer-- COMMISSIONER HASSE: Now, see that's an answer pos si bly. MS. LAWSON: Beyond that initial time period. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 10 48 COMMISSIONER HASSE: You know, we're not here to be just boomed like this and destroy people out there. I'm not here for that purpose. C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mr. Cuyler? MR. CUYLER: Madam Chairman, I think it's p~etty apparent that we' re dealing with two different situations and either the staff is going to have to address them separately or if the board is inclined to give direction, you're going to have to give it separately. One is the sales facility within a development and whether that's going to be limited to sales and resales within that development. I agree with Miss Lawson that or she seems to agree with the board that you want to avoid the situation where you have a full-blown real estate office that's selling county-wide within the development when everybody agrees the primary purpose should be to sell within the development. The problem is you've got to put some regulations into effect if you're going to have an enfo[cement mechanism. You said the appropriate way to handle that is have Dick Clark enforce that, but you've got to have a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c c 49 regulation to enforce. The board needs to think in terms of what guidance you want to give to the staff on that issue. The second issue which is related but a separate issue is the model home that is elsewhere that it is selling generally. So it may help you to guide the staff separately on those two issues. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Well, I think the staff can absorb two things that we're talking about here. MR. CUYLER: I agree. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: We did that last week. mean, didn't we direct staff last week to look at Marco Island and Golden Gate Estates and some of the other areas that-- MR. BAGINSKI: That's true, Madam Chairman, and that's what we attempted to do. If you'll look through your blue sheets, many of the things that in particular certainly that Commissioner VolDe had discussed, we attempted to provide for like in the model sales offices, which again, you're right. We attempted to divide it into two areas, those outside the developments and those unconnected with OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 50 developments. Based on your suggestions that I include in language dealing with the model sales offices within a development that would allow for the sale, resale, marketing or administrative functions of the dwellings or structures within the development that is located .or adjacent under the same control. that. we attempted to do The last time we spoke, there was considerable opposition to a conditional use based on the non-surety of achieving one and the cost. Under this ordinance for those models that are located outside of the development, we provided for the initial issuance of two years and extension of two additional years, up to four, without any conditional use. We've tried to respond with the board and what we thought the board was telling us. COMMISSIONER HASSE: And after that? MR. BAGINSKI: It was my impression, sir, that when we discussed this before that when we got into the numbers of years, very frankly it was my impression that the idea was that three and four years is enough. COMMISSIONER HASSE: That wasn't my impression. MS. LAWSON: No, not in Golden Gate, Ken. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 1! C~ 51 COMMISSIONER [{ASSE: No, sir. MS. LAWSON: Chairman Goodnight, I would point out that in response to your concerns about the community having the opportunity to respond, Mr. Baginski drafted language and got it over to me early this afternoon and I dispersed it amongst the various concerned people and got some feedback, not a great deal. I did have an opportunity to talk to him myself this afternoon but we really haven't had time to sit down with staff and address one by one the actual langua?e that has been drafted since the last hearing before this board. So there is new language here, a great deal of new language and it's a lot different ~.han what we talked about in some instances. For instance, the conditional use permit is an excellent example. I think Mr. Baginski did try to respond to the negative reaction to conditional use permits, but I think you have to listen a little bit closer and understand that in Golden Gate if you get a permit for four years, you might want to come in here if you're out in the middle of nowhere and there's not~)dy that's going to complain after four years and say I want OFFICIAL OOURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 52 a conditional use permit to go beyond that. But it's not in here now. COMMISSIONER VOLPE'. We talked about the consent of your neighbors so that if you've got people who are living, you know, we had one gentleman who addressed a concern he has, his model in his neighborhood and he's got a parking area and so on and we talked about the two-year limitation and it could become a problem for those people who live on either side of a model home where the gentleman is trying to sell the property. MS. LAWSON: I think what we're concerned about here, Mr. Volpe, is after the two years or four years if you' re out in Golden Gate with a model and there's nobody within however many feet to object, you should be able to come in and ask for a conditional use permit at that point, and we haven't -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: That's the direction that I think we gave staff. MS. LAWSON: Right. able to do that. MR. BAGINSKI: opportunity to hash this out. And I don't know that we' re And again, we haven't really had the I can say without OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 12 53 hesitation I have got no problem putting that conditional use permit -- MS. LAWSON.. I didn't think he would, but we just haven't had the time to discuss it as Ken says. We haven't had the time to discuss a number of these points and these are the points that some of these people have come out and are concerned about tonight. So there are a n~ber of points to go over. A number of them. You've heard a few of them. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Can I ask, how many of the people who are here were here at our first discussion on this issue? And you heard the directions that we've given to our staff to try to address some of the concerns that were identified during that public hearing? So I guess really nothing's changed since then because you haven't actually seen what's been done so maybe Commissioner Goodnight was correct that maybe what we really need to do is give you at least an opportunity to get a handout to see how the changes have been made to have a meaningful hearing because as pointed out, I mean, there's some issues that are being debated here that have OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 54 already been addressed, you kno~. MR. CUYLER~ Linda, are you not in agreement with the Chairman that you need time to sit do~n with staff and go through these items and then figure out what you agree to and what you -- ~tg. LAWSON: There's no guestion that we need additional time. I think Commissioner Volpe addressed this issue at the hearing where he indicated that if we have some very significant issues, we should not feel that we're under the gun with this November 1st deadline with DCA if we need to work them out, and I think this is a good example of one that we need to work out. And if it takes an extra few days to work it out, so be it. I think we also tonight need some direction from the board on some of these significant issues such as how to deal with the real estate branch office issue and the conditional use permit. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: The problem we have, Miss Lawson, is we haven't seen what our own staff has done yet either, so it's hard to give direction. MS. LAWSON~ It is difficult, so perhaps some of you could join us if we have a workshop meeting. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 Ci C. 55 COMMISSIONER [{ASSE: Good girl. C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mr. Nichols? MR. NICHOLS.. It's nice to have the pro here. I don't see -- oh, Stefan, do you want me to go ahead with your problem? Just one quick thing. In the suggested rules here, you have the two-year rule plus the two one-year extensions or an 80 percent completion situation where when it is 80 percent completed then you will not be allowed any more extensions of time. I'm speaking on behalf of Lely at this moment. I'm not employed by Lely in any way, shape or form, but in the interest of not calling too many people up here. This is an unusual situation, obviously. But they have 10,150 units in their new development which has been okay'd by the county. What do you do to them after they have completed 80 percent of it and they still have 2,000 plus units to go? I think that's where that cond].tional use permit would be very effective, and I think to penalize them by saying you can't be here another year or whatever it takes-- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, the same issue relates OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 56 to Pelican Bay, relates to the Vineyards, relates to any of the large DRI's. MR. NICHOLS ~ Right. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: And I think the issue is that you move those sales offices out of the residential neighborhoods and you put them into a commercial area. I mean, isn't that really the answer? MR. NICHOLS: I don't know if it is or not. I think that the residential neighborhood should be where they are. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: You do? MR. NICHOLS: I think they should have their sales office in something that they're selling. It makes a lot more sense to me because you can't sell someone s(xnething -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: What would you do about Wyndemere? MR. NICHOLS: Where you live? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: That's exactly right. I pass a real estate sales office every night when I go home in my residential neighborhood. MR. NI(~OLS ~ Yes. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c 57 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: But as long as it's -- whether it's 80 percent of 10,000 or 80 percent of 700, what's the difference? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: COMMISSIONER VOLPE: residential neighborhood. Does it bother you? Yeah, it does. It's a It is a residential neighborhood in which we have a "commercial establishment." MR. NICHOLS.. Set up t5, the owner of the property originally. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Right. MR. NICHOLS: I can't answer for Wyndemere, I'm sorry to say. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Just the concept is what we' re dealing with. I mean, how about Pelican Bay? What do you do with Pelican Bay? MR. NICHOLS: Pelican Bay is an ongoing community as is Wyndemere. New projects are being done all the way, all the time. They're starting. They're permitted. They were given their DRI approval a long time ago. You knew this was going to happen. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Nichols, I'm asking you OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 13 58 where is Pelican Bay's sales center? MR. NICHOLS: Might be in any of the models. They have various projects going on at all times and they have their sales center in that particular project, specifically. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: How about the Vineyards? MR. NICHOLS: V~..neyards has people in the models. They have them at the very front mostly where you' re complaining about and yes, I've seen that many times. And again, I can't answer for the Vineyards. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I'm saying the Vineyards has their sales office, I think, on Pine Ridge Road. I think that's where the sales office is. (Audience responds in the negative. ) COMMISSIONER VOLPE: No? COMMISSIONER HASSE: It's off a side street. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Well, at any rate we know where the issue is. MR. NICHOLS~ Pardon? Oh, yes, that's what I said. They're all over. Anything that Pelican Bay is selling, they have an on-site sales team on that project, specifically. They have a general office that handles OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 59 the coordination of all of the -- but -- COMMISSIONER HASSE: Well, you're going to give somebody else a chance to talk if they want to talk? MR. NICHOLS: Yeah, right now. Thank you veiny much. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Brutt, could I ask you a couple quick questions. You indicated that you've gotten complaints. Can you give me some information on the number of complaints, the type of complaints that you've gotten and over what period of time? MR. BRUTT: I would say three or four, but one I'll say is semicontinuous. The individual bought a home knowing that the two adjacent structures were given temporary use permits for one year and those temporary use permits have not expired and he is bothered by the fact that the adjacent structures are being used for sales. People come, knock on his door, thinks his house is also one and it is the temporary use permit that was given for the year has not ceased to exist. Those buildings have J%ot ceased to exist as commercial activity centers. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 60 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: You've gotten three or four complaints in o~er what period of time is that? MR. BRUTT: A year and a half. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Out of the three or four, one of them is the repetitive co~plaint? MR. BRUTT~ It's up on 41. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So you have two or three other people in addition to that. MR. BRUTT~ Right. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Do you kn~ if it's two or if it's three? MR. BRUTT: Two or three. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. Prior to that, was there any indication that there were a lot of complaints or is this really pretty much it, three or four every year and a half? MR. BRUTT.. I would say that was the nt~ber. The whole structure, of course, started on the Hide Away Beach issue. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Madam Chairman, I think one thing that we can do and I'll yield to Mr. Segreto in just a moment, but I think one thing we can do is give OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 61 some direction to staff in terms of how they approach this particular issue when they meet with the representatives of the real estate industry. My view is, and I don't kncw what the consensus of the board is going to be, imy view is that staff ought to be liberal in trying to accommodate as best as possible the needs of the real estate cc~nmunity in terms of selling both models that are in subdivisions and models that are not. Try to-- if you've got a specific type of a problem that you're trying to address, for example the one situation where a conditional use or something has expired and it's still being used. If you're trying to address some rather small issue, then go ahead and address it. But I don't see any reason in creating a whole new regulatory concept when in a period of a year and a half or longer you've gotten three or four complaints. Most of us get that many complaints in an hour in a good day, so my direction to the -- (applause from the audience) -- my direction to the staff would be I don't want to see these as principal places of business. I don't want to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 62 see any abuse in terms of the length of time and that sort of thing, but I think people should be given a pretty free hand to conduct business. I don't know how the rest of the board feels, but that's the direction I would give them. (Applause from the audience.) COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I agree. COMMISSIONER SRANABAN: I agree. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: My concern has been primarily a couple of what I perceive to be pushing it to the limit and where I'm trying to protect the residential neighborhoods, n~nber one, the residential neighborhoods. And two, there are instances along some of our arterials which are not zoned for commercial uses where we have had heated debate about the grant of provisional uses as we debated last week about where we went through a heated debate about a provisional use for a church but yet we've got a "real estate office" just down the street in the Estates area of our county which doesn't have a provisional use but exists under so~e sort of a temporary use permit. I agree with liberality. I agree with the kinds of OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 63 situations that we've been addressing. My concern is residential neighborhoods and where we've got instances where what might approach being a provisional use in an Estates area is really what I've been looking at. MR. BRUTT'. Let me turn it over to Dave. There's one point that's interesting. When it was originally discussed at one of the Planning Commission meetings and I believe the original language was that the property should be posted so the adjacent persons owning the adjacent residential property would know what is contemplated going on. That was a major point of contention that a lot of the people in the audience didn't like the fact that they were going to publicize the fact of what was going to happen on a particular lot. I think Dave wants to speak about the single-family home and the relationships as we look at the single-family home and the quiet factors that you expect when you buy the single-family home. MR. PETTR(~4: For the record, David Pettrow, Development Services Department. Commissioner Saunders, your point's well taken. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 Z4 64 guess perhaps we should refocus a little bit and maybe staff didn't sell themselves well on one of our key points, and that is that any subdivision or in the Golden Gate Estates for instance where you have a vacant lot but where you have many developed properties around single-family is that where you have someone come in and purchases a lot and puts up a home and then asks someone to use it as a model or consigns it to be a model, our concern is in a private single-family residential neighborhood where there is no further project activities per se but there's some empty lots, just having someone come in and set up a model, the model is not the problem. We have no problems with their setting up the model and showing that off-site, on-site, whatever. Where our certain is is that they come in and they set up and they staff it as an office, whether it's one person or more. What the concern that we have in the single-family residential neighborhood rises to the top of the pyramid and protecting the integrity of the single-family residential neighborhood and that's what our concern is; intrusion, privacy, transportation, anything that increases transportation on that local OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 14 C' C C 65 street above and beyond normal traffic generated becomes a concern and that's why we put things into home occupations where you can't increase traffic. So our concern is really that, to protect the single-family residential neighborhood and if someone wants to come in on that lot and put in a model, we have absolutely no problem and they want to have it open so many days a week, fine, we have no problem. The moment, though, they establish it as a commercial office, we may have a conflict with our Growth Management Plan where we've introduced a commercial activity in a single-family residential neighborhood. And we have to speak from a land use point of view here about protecting the integrity of that neighborhood. Other than that, we don't have a p~oblem with it. We tried to address the concecns of the individuals here tonight by extending -- and in fact I think on the handouts that you have we've said one acre or more, arterial and collector to]ds and no more than one every 800 linear feet on the s~me street and by temporary permit rather than by conditional use, so I think if you want to say we saw the light, but we regrouped and we OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 14 66 rethought that and as Linda Lawson put it, we've got to sit down and work out some of the language differences. But our concern is that that single-family, giving the scenario I did, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I understand that. .And I guess the point is that when you try to work out these specific types of problems, I think you can do that perhaps without addressing or making it so onerous that it's impossible to conduct business. MR. PETTROW.. Well, I think we' re more than halfway there. It's just that again that integrity of that neighborhood for an existing vacant lot, someone's coming in and in most cases I don't think models are going to be set up for purpose, so they come in and staff them per se but they come in and they want to show them and display them, fine. But to go in there and set up an actual office and then advertise that in an existing single-family residential neighborhood with one lot introduces a commercial activity into something that -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: That's one of the reasons why -- and Just one second. One of the reasons why suggested when Linda Lawson was speaking that maybe one OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 14 67 way to approach this is through the regulation of the type of advertising that takes place. It's just something for you to consider as you're trying to sol ve -- COMMISSIONER SH~NAHA2~: Dave, there was no question that the direction last week was to protect the integrity of the neighborhood. It was very clear. MR. PETTROW: No, there certain/y wasn't, but again -- COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Fine. There's an agreement -- MR. PETTROW: But again, mayt~~. we didn't sell ourselves well on our focus or maybe you didn't have a chance to absorb what was on the handout sheet. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Didn't even read it. It was Just handed to me. MR. PETTROW: indicated, -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: COMMISSIONER HASSE: tOO. I realize that. As we' ve MR. SEGRETO: haven't had a chance to -- see that portion of it now, My haree's Mr. Segreto. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 14 c c 68 COMMISSIONER ~ASSE: That might solve some of the pr obl ems. MR. SEGRETO~ I -- COMMISSIONER HASSE: I'm talking to Mr. Pettrow. And it seems that may solve some of the problems, but, you know, we haven't had a chance to see anything and we Just get it, you know, we don't have a chance to devour it, so to speak. I like the idea of perhaps getting together with the group of the people out there that are having similar problems that we' re talking about and perhaps they want to address it. And they're here tonight and I guess we should listen to anything that they don't think they can resolve with the staff. That's all. MR. SEGRETO: My name's Mr. Segreto. C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mr. Segreto, you' re wanting to speak on the model homes? MR. SEGRETO: Yes. I feel out of all fairness to everybody I should make & comment on the fact that nobody objects to a new area th%t is growth. Eventually these models sunset by themselves in a matter of ten years or five years, but the fact that if it's alongside of a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 69 residential home and you're bringing all this traffic in, there shouldn't be an open situation like Mr. Hasse seems to want that it can get two years and then two years more and it goes on two years more. That's an inevitable thing for that poor person alongside who bought a residential home. Now, you'v, got to understand the other side of the shoe or the other side of the road there. Now, why not do it the legal way. You put it in your ordinance that it's a permitted use, not a conditional use. Conditional use is open for anybody and you've got more traffic cc~ing back and forth here. Oh, I want two more years. You people got enough to do without constantly having this traffic coming back and forth. Now, if you say two years, four years, meet with these people and find out. Their model dies in three or fou£ years, they' re going to put a new model because people maybe don't want it. But the fact remains it should be a closed situation. It should not be left open. By leaving it open, you're leaving people to say oh, sure, you went over there and you know him and I don't know him and I couldn't get an extension but you OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 15 c 70 got an extension. That's not the way to run these things. And now one thing else I want to bring up. There are three situations here, not two. You people are relating to two situations; the PUD and the standard outside homes, such as Marco Island. The PUD's, they got enough of commandoes over there. I know. I lived in one of those projects one time, and they've got their own rules and regulations and they don't seem to say anything to anybody because they went into that model and they bought their home because of that and they' re going to give the next person that's coming along that's going to be their neighbor the same right to buy in there. Why are you people getting involved in a PUD situation? That belongs in the PUD itself. That's their personal problems. And they've got laws. Believe me, they've got more laws than you know. For anything. You know, I have a friend of mine that was called up because he parked his car in the wrong way, facing outward? I mean, that's how tight ti~ose people can get. They've got nothing to do but Just sit and watch what's going on. Furthermore, another thing, like I say, you've got OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 71 three areas. You've got the PUD's, you've got Marco Island and now what happened last week in the Department of Community Affairs, they are restricting the growth of the Estates. The county cannot al].ow growth in that area. You're not to encourage growth. Now, this was in Your attorneys are totally aware of conference call. this fact. CHAIRMAN GOODN IGHT: hear this. MR. S EG RETO z in -- Mr. Segreto, I don't want to Now, just a minute. You're bringing CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mr. Segreto, -- MR. SEGRETOz --a fact that-- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: -- this happens to be -- MR. SEGRETO: -- this area Js ST. That means that -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mr. Segreto, -- MR. SEGRETO: -- you may not be allowed to have -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: -- I suggest you either sit down or I will ask the deputy to escort you out. This is a legal case and this will not -- MR. SEGRETO: I',.~ not talking about -- OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 15 72 CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: -- be discussed. MR. SEGRETO~ -- legal cases. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: This is a legal case that you have filed against the county. We will not discuss this tonight, and furthermore, I don't want to hear it.. So if you've got -- MR. SEGRETO: What is it in reference -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: -- any problems, you can take it into court. Now either sit down, discuss mobile, model -- MR. SEGRETO: I'm talking about mobile -- I'm talking about it. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I'm going to have you escorted out. MR. SEGRETO~ Madam Chairman, I'm talking about -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT= There's no -- MR. SEGRETO: -- model homes -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Excuse me. MR. SEGRETO: -- in the land use area -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Excuse me. MR. SEGRETO~ -- of the Estates. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: No. That's enough. You'll OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 15 ¢£ c~ c 73 either have a seat or either leave the room. MR. SEGRETO: Why? C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT.' I don't want to hear any more. I'm sorry. MR. SEGRETO: Are you afraid to tell these people what has occurred last week with the Department of Community Affairs? Is that the issue that you don't want these people aware? C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mr. Segreto, I'm not afraid of you at all. What the situation is that you and your cornpadres have a lawsuit against the -- MR. SEGRETO~ I have no lawsuit. C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: -- count7 and -- MR. SEGRETO: I am an individual. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: That's fine. I'm sorry. You're right, you don't have a lawsuit but you have testified against the county with the person that has filed lawsuits and I don't want to hear any more of it. We' re not going to be -- MR. SEGRETO: I'm not talking lawsuit. Lawsuit pertains to the agricultural. MS. STUDENT: Madam Chairman, Marjorie Student, for OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 74 the record. and -- C~ AIRMAN GOODN IG H T .. of that fact. MS. STUDENT ~ says that he doesn't have a lawsuit. Mr. Segreto has petitioned to intervene Yes, Marjorie, I'm quite aware -- Mr. Segreto is incorrect when he CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: fact -- MR. SEGRETO: Yes, I'm quite aware of the I have not been accepted yet. And I'm still -- we're talking about something totally different. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mr. Tomlinson, -- MS. STUDENT~ I caution the commission that this is a matter of litigation and I advise the commission not to discuss it. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Thank you. Is there someone else that would like to discuss the model home issue? MR. COE: Thank you. My name is Bill Coe. I represent the Golden Gate Contractor's Association. I Just want to touch on a couple of things that have been mentioned. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 75 In the Golden Gate area, we've got somewhere close to a hundred square miles. It's 15 percent developed. You put that in terms of undeveloped lots of 75 or 80,000. Now, in the entire area from 951 to DeSoto, under the new plan, we have no commercial lots available to locate model homes on. It's obvious that we' 11 then have to locate them on residential lots. We' re very much against the sundown provision for two years, four years, any amount of years because we think that if we' re going to come up for conditional use anyway, they're going to surely analyze each situation, and I don't think it needs to have a time cap on it if zoning's going to look at it anyway. They're going to entertain any petitioner. deciding factor? CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: So, why not let that be the And I don't have a problem with that and I think that what has been written, what some of the new guidelines is now in here is talking about the Estates and I think that is addressed; however, I have received some complaints of some model homes on Golden Gate Boulevard and the complaints were not because they were model homes, the complaints were because they OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 76 were not keeping the yard up and there was a rattlesnake that was in that yard and there was kids that were out there and I ~an, things of this nature. So, I mean, I feel like that in the Estates area especially that there should be some type of provision that the staff can say, you kn~, that this is wh&t you've got to do to be able to continue. But I know that there's been several model homes that's been out there for four or five years and, you kn~, and they're still useful model homes for that area. So, you kn~, I think your c~mments are well taken. M~. COE: Thank you. Generally speaking, if you look at the model homes in the area, they're probably the best kept properties in the area. C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: That's true. MR. COE: In addition, comments about disruption of the neighborhood, you have to real ize that we' re not there at night. We're probably the best neighbor you could have. We have the best lawn. We're not there at night. We're not ever ~king noise, and if we were, Compliance would come out and tell us to stop. C~MMISSIONER HASSE: The trouble is you make my OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 17 c. c- 77 wife Jealous of your lawn. MR. COE: Well, we' re glad to hear that. It's pretty common-- if you think about it, we're normally going to select a lot on a high traffic road that's not a very good location for a residence. Now, if we have-- COMMISSIONER HASSE: Mr. Coe, I don't want to I know what you're talking about. Have interrupt you. you read this? MR. COE.. Yes, sir, I have. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Did you read one and two? MR. COE: I don't have them up here with me, but I'm sure -- COMMISSIONER HASSE: Here. Give it back to me because they may not give me another one. Read one and two. Does that answer any of the problems? MR. COE: We don't have any problems with one or two, and I think we can live with that. The problem that we really are faced with is the sundown provision or two years or with one-year extensions or whatever because that closes the door when it may not need to be closed. We think that zonings through hearings can OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c c c 78 determine from petitioners if there's a problem. If the model home becomes a problem for the neighborhood, then don't renew it. COMMISSIONER S~ANAHAN: Nothing's final on the sundown provision yet. MR. OLLIFF: The board has given us direction to take a look at a conditional use at the end of this current period in this revision. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: And that's primarily to give notification to the people who may have purchased in the area of the model home so that this ducks tails into our concerns about the integrity of our residential neighborhoods, even in Golden Gate Estates, which is a very nice residential area. MR. COE: We understand that concern and we' re in favor of that. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, there's been a suggestion that we don't want to set a different standard, in my point of view, for Golden Gate Estates and Golden Gate City or we do for Willoughby Acres or Palm River and I don't think anybody intends to do that. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHTs And I think the mechanism OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 79 should also be there that we can allow them to continue, you know, if the neighbors have no objection and things like that. MR. COE: Another thing to think about, if you have an $800,000 model home, s~y you did, I wish we did, the requirements for the site develot~nent that you have to do, the mandatory landscaping, sprinklers, parking lots, engineered site plan, engineered septic system if you' re on one, commercial well, those things can run 15 or $20,000. On an $800,000 property, that's no big deal. You can pad that right into the price when you sell it if you' re forced to sell it in two years. we sell a house for about $65,000. Now, when we put that extra 15 in there and have to sell it in a couple of years, that's a pretty short time to amortize that investment just to go down the road and do it again. So we Just ask that you consider that. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: MR. COE: Thank yol'~. COMMISSIONER HASSE: We' re considering it. We were talking about the collector road.~ and so on and so forth that should be in there and if you' re willing to be in there for whatever OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 17 80 period of time - give me my paper back. MR. OLLIFF~ Is there anyone else who feels like anything's been missed on the model homes or they'd like to add anything? CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: please. MR. BROWN: Okay. If you'll come forward, My name is Jeff Brown. I'm a broker of Diamond Properties on Marco. I didn't make the other two meetings, but I had a few notes I was writing down here, a few things that might be cleared up and might help me unde rs rand. The way I see it, and this is the way I feel, what's needed is like absolute spelled out requirements of compliance and none of this policing as was previously done with model homes as far as the requirements for handicap parking. problems started. This is where I think all these It needs to be spelled out, I feel absolutely --you know, what are the requirements and what is compliance. And you're talking about two different issues here, one being as you say a development such as Wyndemere but there's another issue such as an area of Marco which is OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 17 81 an area that is not even 50 percent developed. I feel that model homes are a big plus to an area like this to help in the development of an area like this. Without this, you knc~, I feel that you stunt growth to an area like this. A couple other things here. What exactly does everyone feel is the evil of keeping in compliance within what was compliance with the parking, the landscape requirements that we previously had. What is the evil in this all of a sudden? I guess I don't understand. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: There is no evil except what we're talking about and I think eveDyone's been saying the same thing is the protection and the integrity of our residential neighborhoods and so when you built the model on Marco Island there's a representative from your community here at our first meeting and he made exactly the same point that you've made, that there are a n~ber of vacant lots. But there will come a point in time where they'll be sold and you're going to have residences along the way and it may be offensive foe whatever reasons to the residents there to have, you know, four or five parking OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 82 places in front with handicap parking where it's really not a residential neighborhood with a model home which is being used as a sales center. So I think that we've allowed for the adjustment, though, because there is, I think, a two-year, four-year and then there's the opportunity to come in and get a further extension, but it would requi[e that there be_ given notification to people in the surrounding area so that they have an opportunity to perhaps register a concern about the continuation of that particular use at that particular location. And most people who spoke last week, and correct me if I'm wrong, they said that ordinarily four years was certainly enough and they would move from that particular model home to another model home in Marc Island and eventually they'd sell the model homes and move to another one. So it didn't seem to be particularly onerous to accommodate those type of -- MR. BROWN: Personally, I feel that, you know, the issue should be compliance as far as signage, parking, you know, these things should all be very, you know, -- COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Spelled out. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 18 c c C' C_ 83 MR. BRC~FN: -- spelled out and not policed by, you know, a government authority that's going to say, Well, -- and what constitutes it? They come in and if there's an MLS book on the table, is that considered a sales office? I mean, you know, it's just too broad. It's not spelled out. And I think that a lot more things have to be looked into, you know, as far as I can see. COMMISSIONER S~ANAHAN: Thank you. C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. MR. BRC~N: Thank you. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Make sure you get a copy of the language before you leave this evening. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Is there someone else that needs to speak on the model home issue? Then those of -- Linda, have you got -- COMMISSIONER HASSE: Linda, you had your five minutes. MS. LAWSON~ You' re right. COMMISSIONER SHANAH~N: You were an expert over here. What are you on that side of the room? MS. LAWSON: I want to be staff and I want to say that -- OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 84 MR. OLLIFF: We can arrange that. MS. LAWSON.. -- tentatively I think we may be able to have a meeting tomorrow at five o'clock. There's a number of people who want to attend that are here and staff and I have discussed it and we'll call either Ken's office or my office tomorrow to confirm that, but that's what we're trying to work on, 5:00 tomorrow. COMMISSIONER SHANAHA/g: Good. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. Then there's going to be a meeting tomorrow at five o'clock. If you' re interested in attending that meeting, then you need to get ahold of Linda or either you can call the -- either Ken or Mr. Pettrow and find out what time it is. If there's a problem after that meeting with them, then our next meeting will be October the 30th and at that time -- October 30th, and at that time we will solve any problems that you have not solved in you[ meeting yesterday or between nc~ and Wednesday and this concerns the model homes and the C-4 and C-5 is going to be held at 1:30 on Friday to solve the same thing and any problems that are not solved then will be brought back to this meeting next Wednesday night at 5:05. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 85 Is there any questions? I'm sorry. The meeting -- where's the meeting? The meeting for tomorrow and Friday is going to be on Horseshoe D~ive in the Community Services, Development Services Building. The meeting next Wednesday night will be here in this room. Okay? All right. Then what's-- our next one is now -- COMMISSIONER SRANAHAN: Now we do Article III, IV, V and VI. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Article III? MR. BRUTT: We haven't finished II yet. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: We haven' t? All right. What else do we have then? MR. OLLIFF~ Mrs. Chairman, if you want, we can Just proceed through the public speakers then that are left for Article II. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: We' re goin9 to take a five-minute recess. (A short break was taken.) CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Call the meetin9 back to order. Mr. Olliff, we have a couple more speakers. If OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 86 you'll call the other speakers that has to do with other problems with Article II. MR. OLLIFF~ Sure will. And these are not in any particular order, but they are all relating to Article II, so we'll try and deal with those. Tony Varano. MR. VARANO: Good evening, Commissioners. My name is Tony Varano, for the record. I'm here to speak out about the fence ordinance. I understand Sheriff Hunter has sent a letter of support or actually against the fence ordinance. The way it is written, they want to make the fences in the industrial areas, they want them to be opaque now. Now, serving 12 years in Jersey as a volunteer in law enforcement on the State and local areas, I see a very dangerous situation for our law enforcement people, for our firemen. Also, for our code enforcement people. Once you make these fences opaque, when the sheriff's department goes by nightly with their spotlights, they're not going to De able to see what's going on on the other side of those fences. I spoke out against this before the Planning Commission at Monday night's meeting. They did take a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 18 co c- c 87 vote on it. Unfortunately there were only six people there to vote and they came up with a tie decision. So I guess it goes to you people. Again, if you take a fence and a criminal comes into the area, he's going to choose that area to commit his crime because he can hide there all night. I have called seven counties in the State of Florida. No one has such an ordinance in their industrial park areas. Now, I'm very concerned with aesthetics and I think that's where staff was going with the opaque fencing. I live in North Naples. I'm building a brand new home in Golden Gate Estates. I own property on Marco Island and I also own a piece of industrial land at J & C. Where we have residents, I'm very concerned about aesthetics. I believe we should have aesthetics. We should have opaque fencing, but only where it's abutting residential up against industrial. If you're inside an industrial park, you' re u~ually there to go to work or you're there for something to do with trades. I believe there's a lot of businesses that are trying to expand and have small retail outlets out of OFPICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 ~':) C. 88 their buildings and show rooms and I think if there's any complaint, that's the people who are complaining. They want everybody else to be hidden so that they can extend their businesses and they don't really care about the outside storage person. I have been monitoring every Collier County cc~unission meeting for the last five years. I have never been here. I've recorded every single one of them. I feel like I know you people personally even though you've never seen me before. And over and over again I think you're doing a fantastic job and I hear all c~missioners at one time or another state that we need to protect the health, safety and the welfare of our citizens. Well, our law enforcement people or firemen or firewomen or fire protection people all are part of Collier County citizens. They go into situations where they' re going to have walls made out of masonry, wood and as the ordinance says, other acceptable articles of building materials, by staff. I think it's a very dangerous situation. Like I said, I have been out there for 12 years as a volunteer, as they say in the trenches. We have a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 19 c c c 89 member of our Collier County police office today and if anybody wants to ask him what it's like to go up to a fence that you can't see through and find a shotgun pointing to your head, and we've discussed it and we've both had it happen in the past, it's a very eerie feeling. (Commissioner Volpe returned to the board room.) I think open fencing is what's needed in the industrial area. I think opaque fencing is definitely needed where residential is abutting industrial. Like I said, I'm building a new home. I want aesthetics in this Collier County, too. That's why I moved here from New Jersey. No offense, Mr. Hasse, I know you're from New Jersey, but -- COMMISSIONER HASSE: I'm here, too. MR. VARANO.. You' re here, too. We' re all coming down. And basically I know it's been a long day for you and again, law enforcement is what I'm concerned about. Our code enforcement people, I've had comments from Dick Clark's office, individual inspectors that say you've got a good point. How can we see what's going on behind OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 C' ¢ 90 these fences and you start putting fences up all around the industrial areas. We've got people breaking the laws now dumping chemicals out there, burying things that shouldn't be buried. We have to protect our water. We hear that all the time. You put up fences, you' re going to add to the crime that's already out there. I've had construction trailers on my property out there three years. I've had four break-ins already and my fence is not opaque. And the sheriff's department still, no matter how good of a Job they do, can't keep up with the crime. Fence it in, you're going to add more trouble to a situation. Basically that's all I have to say. It's what I said Monday night in front of the -- Mr. Volpe, I believe, has a letter from Sheriff Hunter. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I do. MR. VAR~NO: And that's all I can say. I've been in contact with Sheriff Hunter on this matter for nine months. I brought it to the sheriff's department and they were not aware that such an ordinance was going to be written which was going to put their lives in danger. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 91 So Sheriff Hunter asked me to keep him abreast of what's going on and that's what I've done as a volunteer, in my capacity as a volunteer. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: COMMISSIONER VOLPE: members of the commission. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: fencing. MR. MERRILL: That's all I have to say. Thank you. I'll share this with the other Mr. Merrill, about the We've heard the issue and the Planning -- we've heard the issue and the Planning Commission made the decision not to -- to keep the language as it was, as I recall. Isn't that correct? CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Do you want to tell us what page the language is on? MR. BAG INSKI ~ 2-45. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Pardon? 2- -- MR. MERRILL~ 45. CHAIRMAN GOODN IGHT: 45? MR. VARANO: Excuse me, Madam Chairman. The vote was a tie. There were three members there. The other two members there were golnq to vote against it were not available that night. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 2O ¢_ C' 92 MR. MERRILL: That's correct. I'm sorry. It was a three to three tie. That's correct. And so because they didn't decide it, left the language as it was and they passed it up to the board to make a decision. MR. BAGINSKI: The o~ly thing I would point.out is you have extremely similar duplicate language within your current ordinance in the industrial. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: For opaque fencing? MR. BAGINSKI: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, the sheriff' s provided me with a co~y of a memorandum which I'll share with the other members of the board. I haven't discussed it with Sheriff Hunter. And he raises the concerns about the safety of his deputies if in fact opaque fencing is used within our industrial areas. that or not. I don't know whether you were aware of CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Well, wouldn't it be better to change it to where that o~.aque fencing or some of this wood or masonry fencing or the grain strips in the metal fence would be -- I mean, if it was only on maybe one or two, or three sides and one side that was open, I mean, I OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 93 understand the necessity of the buffering and especially in the residential areas and I think that was the reason why that we did this, but, you know, I think that some sides of it needs to be open or at least where it can be seen through as far as security because that would mean that the deputy would be able to ride by and look at what was going on in there without having to get out and search it. MR. BAGINSKI: I don't know. I'm open to suggestions. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I think that's a good suggestion. I think that talking about the residential neighborhoods -- and recently we had a provisional use, as I recall, on the trade center, commercial part which fronted on Airport Road, and I think for aesthetic purposes as well, there was some consideration to opaque fencing so that you didn't have the outdoor storage being visible to everyone and I think Commissioner Goodnight's suggestion is an excellent one. MR. MERRILL: I think what Ken is coming down to is really a policy decision %bat you as a board have to make. From a legal perspective, we don't -- there's no OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 2O 94 probl~ going either way. MR. BAGINSKI: That's absolutely correct. The requirement for the fence and the opaque fence is totally an aesthetic consideration. It's not security of the site. That, of course, is the individual owner. .It's nothing else other than aesthetics. The basis for that again, it's currently within very similar language within the existing ordinance that driving through some of the industrial parks that is certainly evident that there is wide scale open storage of parts, machinery, old vehicles, basically junk. CHAIRMAN GOODN IGHT: Byron? LIEUTENANT TOMLINSON: Would that help the situation, It's a good possibility. It could, as long as -- I believe you mentioned three sides being concealed. That would still endanger the deputy. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT.' I'm talking about having the one side that was on the arterial road or the one side that was buffering the residential area being that way and then the rest of it being open. LIEUTENANT TOMLINSON: If it buffered to the rear, towards the residential area, then that would be safe OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 ~5 for -- our main priority on patrol is that we can -- as we drive by, using the spotlight during the evening time for suppression of burglaries and stuff, we can shine the light into this yard area. I realize what Ken is saying, he wants it concealed from the road. Our main point is we should be able to see from the road towards the interior portion of the area. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Baginski's coming at it -- he says it's only the aesthetic issue and you're saying it's really an issue of law enforcement and that's what Sheriff Hunter's said, the concern about the safety of the deputies. So we've got both those issues. LIEUTENANT TOMLINSON: As the deputy -- if he sees someone in there, as a deputy exits his patrol car and enters the ground area, if this opaque fencing is up, the perpetrator then has a good area to conceal himself if he is armed. The deputy is in plain view and then the deputy is put in great danger. MR. BAGINSKI: Definitely. And I've made that point to the Planning Commission that no one, certainly myself nor my staff, would want to endanger the police OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 C· 96 officers, and as I pointed out, admittedly that what we're dealing with is an aesthetic question. Beyond doubt, I think that at least as a minimum any perimeter buffering or bordering, you knc~, anything other than the industrial district, whether that's Estates or agricultural or residential, I certainly think should be buffered. LIEUTENANT TOMLINSON: C~A IRMAN GOODN IGHT: on that with the board? No problem there. Is there any other discussion Commissioner Shanahan? COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: I would certainly like to see some efforts in working some way, some compromise, Ken, that would -- for the sheriff's department. You know, it certainly makes sense, and I understand what we' re trying to do. CHAIRMAN GOODN IGHT LIEUTENANT TOML INSON work with Ken, also. work with you. CHAIRMAN GOODN IGHT Is there any other -- We'd be more than happy to We know what your point is. We'll I think you've got some direction on that then and you can bring it back to us next Wednesday. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c 97 MR. RICHARDSON: Commission meeting -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT .. please? MR. RI f:~ ARDSON: Madam Chairman, at the Planning Would you give your name, Yes, I'm sorry. Dwight Richardson, a member of the ULDC C~mmittee. At the Planning Commission meeting, one of the reasons they deadlocked three to three is there was a proposal made that in lieu of opaque fencing that perhaps some landscaping could be introduced so you don't have a completely wide open -- you know, if you get interior to an industrial area and you've got all this outside storage, it may not be -- maybe we can accomplish both objectives. It may not create quite the arablance that we have an opportunity to create if we would at least introduce some modicum of landscaping on those anterior right-of-ways. So that was a suggestion. They locked up on that, but I still think it may have some merit for consideration. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. Next speaker. MR. OLLIFF: Madam Chairman, the next speaker is Craig Smith, followed by Bill Jones. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c 98 CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mr. Smith? (No response. ) MR. OLLIFF: Bill Jones. (No response. ) MR. OLLIFF: Keith Pershing. MR. PERSHING~ Mine's already been put off for the staff meeting on Friday. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Thank you. MR. OLLIFF: Garry Beyrent. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Hi, Garry. We haven't seen you in a while. MR. BEYRENT: I know. I've b~.en out of town. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Oh, I thought maybe it was because we were doing such a good job. MR. BEYRENT, No, are you kidding? I have to complain about something, don't I? CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Well, I thought maybe we were doing a good job for a change. MR. BEYRENT: No, you really are doing a great job, I think. I don't know. After I say this tonight, you might say -- maybe you' re not. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Get out of town again. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 99 C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: again, Garry. MR. BEYRENT ~ time. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Anyhow, it's nice to see you I'll go out of the country the next Just to wrap up this discussion, we haven't missed you. MR. BEYRENT: Thank you very much. I'm back to gripe. For the record, my haree's Garry Beyrent. I'm representing myself and my family. Specifically, my argument is with Mr. Baginski on the downzoning of C-4 and C-5, particularly C-5 uses. Just to give you a little background, this one particular piece of property, I keep coming up here. In 1983 I came up here and at that time Leigh Lane (phonetic) was the zoning director. She presented a letter to the County Cc~nmissioners on a property that was being downzoned. Property was zoned C-5 and the county was downzoning it to C-l, which is a big downzone. And my argument was that I had 12 C-5 uses going on the property at the time. So I said this doesn't seem quite logical. If I actually have 12 C-5 uses, why do you want to downzone it, and Leigh Lane presented it to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c c.: 100 the board and Mary Francis Kruse recommended that the property stay C-5. In 1989 -- that was your first comprehensive land use plan act. The second time around, five years later, 1989, the exact same thing came up. This time the property was going to be downzoned possibly to multi-family and it was kind of ridiculous because I still had those 12 C-5 uses on it. The argument was that it had to go through the zoning re-evaluation to determine whether it was in conformance with the Comprehensive Plan in 1989. Went through the zoning re-evaluation and it was determined by Dave Weeks in the planning staff that the property was in conformance with our newly approved comprehensive land use plan, okay? The problem pops up again, though, now. The 12 C-5 uses are still continuing on the property. The property's just been grandfathered in or whatever you want to call it. It's been determined that the property is in conformance with the new Comp Plan; however, and Mr. Baginski's got just a~out all the C-5 uses eliminated on the property. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c lol So here I'm still with a C-5 piece of property with 12 C-5 uses and he's determined that these uses are no longer admissible under C-5 zoning. So my question to the board is would proced-- as far as the law goes, maybe it's a legal question, but the issue is you have a piece of property that is only been approved for the third time as C-5, the uses have all been sustained as C-5, and now you're coming up with a zoning amendment. This is what I'm ass~ning these are now. These are amendments to the existing zoning district and the C-5 uses are being eliminated. So what procedure -- what takes precedent, the actual comprehensive land use plan approval or modifications to the zoning district? What do I do? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: You could end up with a non-conforming use. MR. BEYRENT: That's what I was afraid of. Now, how do you end up with a non-conforming use if it was just determined by the re-evaluation that the property was not a non-conforming use? It had -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: By a change in the zoning OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 102 2 ordinance. MR. BEYRENT: So the zoning ordinance now -- the amendments to the zoning ordinance are going to override the comprehensive land use plan. That doesn't seem logical to me. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I don't think the comprehensive plan actually has zoning classifications. It has, you know, residential. It has commercial. You know, it doesn't have actually zoning classifications. MR. OLLIFF: But I think in response, too, and correct me, Bill, if I'm wrong, but I think the Planning Commission's recommendation was that we continue to have the C-5 district but that we simply remove some of those more intensive industrial uses and move those into the industrial zoning district and that's the recommendation that's being made -- MR. MERRILL MR. OLLIFF: MR. BEYRENT And adjust C-4 back. -- to this board. Well, in that case, though, I have several -- basically they are industrial uses in this, on this particular piece of property. Now, should I ask for a fezone to industrial and then that wouldn't be in OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 103 alliance with the comprehensive land use plan; right? It would be illogical, too, but it seems to me that if you're zoned C-5 and you have, you know, 12 C-5 uses and you just were approved for those uses, that you should be allowed to continue to use the property under that ordinance, which is-- COMMISSIONER HASSE: Depends what your intensity of your industrial uses. MR. BEYRENT~ Well, that's-- see, they're really now industrial uses, they're C-5. This is-- I know it's a tough issue because there's a lot of C-5 uses that were better off in industrial, but don't you have any rights as far as you've been already approved and your properry's been -- COMMISSIONER HASSE.. Well, you can stay there with that operation there. That's grandfathered in as far as that -- MR. BEYRENT: So you can still use -- if you have a piece of property that has 12 obnoxious C-5 uses and it, right, -- COMMISSIONER HASSE: Are you really doing that to us? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 104 MR. BEYRENT: No. I mean, does that sound-- MR. OLLIFF: Garry, in those particular cases those would become non-conforming uses and then there are certain restrictions that I'm sure you' re well aware of on those non-conforming uses, but they would allow you to continue their existing business in their present form ad infinitum. MR. BEYRENT: Okay. So they couldn't be expanded on over 20 percent or whatever? MR. OLLIFF: MR. BEYRENT MR. OLLIFF: MR. BEYRENT Correct. But they would still be C-5. Yes. Okay. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. MR. OLLIFF~ The next speaker is Ellin Goetz. she still here? No Ellin. Mich -- COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Here she is. MR. OLLIFF: Oh, here she is. I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: She cut her hair. MR. OLLIFF: After Ellin would be Michael Fernandez. MS. GOETZ: The next speaker? Is Hi. I'm Ellin Goetz. I'm a landscape OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 t~ c c c 105 architect. I'm representing myself tonight, not a developer or I'm not making any money by appearing here tonight, but I'm speaking to the proposed landscape ordinance changes, very selfishly because I'm going to have to deal with them in the years to come. And basically the changes on the yellow sheets that you have before you today, the group of us here who are concerned about that, the majority agrees that those are good compromises. There are two things that I'd like to talk about, one of which is a performance bond. I don't know if you're aware that that is now going to be a requirement. Page 2-115, a performance bond -- COMMISSIONER HASSE: Give me that number again, please. MS. GOETZ ~ I'm sorry. It's 2-115. It's probably a blue page; is that correct? COMMISSIONER HASSE: Blue page? MS. GOETZ: Is it a blue page? White page. It's the second paragraph on that page, the bottom of the second paragraph. ~t says, "A performance bond shall be posted by the applicant at 50 percent of the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c 106 installed value of the landscape required by this code. This bond is subject to release 12 months from the date of issuance of the C.O. upon reinspection by Compliance Services." And I know that the reason this is inserted .here is because there's a feeling that there is some landscape installations that are allowed to decline after a period of time and there's no recourse in coming back and bringing that landscape or that site back up to code. And my question is has anyone investigated whether or not such a thing is bondable, because it is an expensive proposition on the part of an owner. And secondly, if this is such a crisis in Collier County that landscapes are allowed to decline to a subcode level, then is the county not missing a great revenue, gaining opportunity by fining these individuals? I mean, if there's so many landscapes are falling beneath the code, then why aren't we out there collecting fines on those properties if it's such a big problem? And maybe staff can help me with that. MR. DELATE= My name is Joe Delate. I'm with Planning Services. In response to your concern about the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 Ci 107 bond issue, this information you have before you is a consensus that we had from our develo~nent code committee and the staff and it was a proposal, again, in response to the concern that you addressed, decline of landscapes. There's a problem with a lot of landscaping. After a year or two they're not maintained, watered, et cetera, and they're allowed to decline at below code standards. In response to that, we try to -- we attempted to devise a mechanism where there was an incentive to keep that landscaping at the code level. And one of the possibilities we explored was this bonding issue. The bond would go along with the reinspection of that landscaping after one year, and at that point the bond would be released to the applicant. The bond was intended to be paid for by the developer and not the landscape architect. MS. GOETZ: Oh, yeah, I understand that. No, but what I'm saying is if there is such a large problem, why hasn't a method of fining been instituted rather than bonding, whi,~ from what I know about it is an expensive proposition on the small guy as well as the-- I don't know that every entity is bondable, first OFFICIAL OOURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 108 of all, on a landscape issue. I don't know if you have investigated other counties in Florida or other parts of the country that have been able to do that. Maybe you have. MR. DELATE~ I'm not aware of any other counties that actually do this; however, I'm almost certain that anything is bondable. Maybe it's not the best mechanism, but we -- through our committees, we thought it was the best mechanism available. We did not explore the possibility of looking at the fining. MS. GOETZ~ And I believe there are counties in Florida that do successfully fine. And it just, you know, generates revenue. I've also heard the argument that the county perhaps has not enough staff to go around policing so to speak, but if the fining mechanism is put in place, you would think that that could pay for that exercise. And if Compliance Services are going to have to go out and inspect the site a year later anyway, I don't really understand that. your attention tonight. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So, I'm just bringing that to The bond would be required of OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 3 109 the landscape architect? MS. GOETZ: No, the owner of the property. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: The developer of the property. MS. GOETZ: Whoever, yeah. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Who's hired someone to design the landscape plan and someone then to install it and then he would be required to maintain some sort of a bond in place for the year that that landscape would be maintained. MS. GOETZ: through the year. Right. To ensure that it survives My question is do we know that that is bondable? Because it is not a cheap -- I mean, it's an expensive thing to be bonded. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, I think the expense is a consideration. And also the question is is there another way of getting at what it is that we' re trying to do, and I just don't know. It sounds like if we' re requiring that the landscaper bond his work, -- MS. GOET~: No. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: ~.- that' s one issue. MS. GOETZ: No. No. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 110 COMMISSIONER VOLPE= But if you're just saying bonding for the maintenance, -- MR. MERRILL: I believe that-- I'm not positive and I'd have to look at this particular issue, but I believe in a number of other codes they do bond landscaping and I think it is bondable. But again, I'd need to look at that and I'd have that for your next meeting or tell staff about that. The -- and I also believe that most of the bonding requirements come -- if they're a general contractor and they're generally approved for bonding and they have lower rates so they can go ahead and do it under their own existing bond, I don't think they have to go out and get a separate bond. But again, I'm not positive about that part of it, but that's something that we certainly should look into if we can save some costs on the landscaping. The problem that I think the staff found with the fining system is that oftentimes 12 months later or whatever the period of time is, the person you're going after is not the developer, it's going to be the new owner, especially on commercial developments. And so the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 3 (2 111 problem that you have there is that you're fining someone who wasn't the one that was responsible for it in the first place. MS. GOETZ: But the owner is always responsible for his or her property, regardless. MR. MERRILL~ Right. KS. GOETZ~ And if in ten years it's below code, then the owner at the time is responsible, not the guy who developed it, so-- MR. MERRILL: That's correct. MR. BRUTT: I am familiar with cities that use the bonding practice. The advantage of the bonding p.~actice is that when the city or the county feels that the landscaping and nursery stock has fallen below a certain grade, they can go to the person who installed it and let the person who installed it be the defendant you might say and prove that the quality of the stock and the existence of the stock is there versus us sending out an investigator to try to p~.ove it the other way. It's a lot easier and a lot surer method of doing it when the person who has posted the bond has to defend their bond or lose the bond rather than working it the OFFICIAL COURT Re. PORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 4 112 other way, taking it to the Code Enforcement Board. And they can be bonded. It's done as a standard practice. There are a lot of landscape municipal service taxing districts that have the same situation that I'm familiar with. MS. GOETZ: Where, in Florida, are you saying? MR. BRUTT: I'm not familiar in Florida, but I'm very familiar with them in California because we had probably 25 or 30 landscape improvement districts for all the residential develo~ent and the bonding method is the best that we found. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, I think that comes up with our median beautifications and it comes up with our MSTU use in Pelican Bay and elsewhere actually requiring the landscapers to bond, to bond their work. I think your point's well made. It seems to me that we're trying -- we're trying -- this is an aesthetic issue? I mean, is that really what we' re talking about? MR. MERRILL: I thiak it's that but it's also-- MS. GOE%~Z: It's functional, too. MR. MERRILL: It's pa£t of all the improvements. I think you' re also bonding sewer, water and so forth. And OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 4 ¢~ 113 I would suspect that it would be done under that same -- at the same time. You put the landscape -- you put it all in at the same time. You put in your sewer and water and then you put in your roads and you' re putting in landscaping last, presumably, in most instances. So, again, -- MS. HOWELL: I just have one comment to make. Excuse me. Martha Howell, Assistant County Attorney, for the record. At the committee meetings where we worked on the revisions to the landscape code, the issue came up of how to treat landscaping that died within the one-year period and wasn't replaced by the land owner or the developer and we discussed various mechanisms. One was bonding. One was fining. And we -- I think staff felt that there was a manpower problem with trying to fine every single development that came out of compliance because some or all of their landscaping died. And the third option that was discussed was having the county replace the landscaping and then issue a lien against the property. And we did discuss that in our office and decided that the bonding issue was the most OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 4 114 equitable and the best route for the county to protect what the county's trying to accomplish with the landscape code. COMMISSIONER HASSE: the property owner, aren't you, -- MS. HOWELL: Right. COMMISSIONER HASSE: people. MS. HOWELL .' MS. GOETZ z You're also trying to protect -- from this group to his Right. No, the property owner is being protected from himself, really. You're not-- you're not protecting the property owner. The cc~mu ni ty. Well, the property owner would get red MR. OLLIFF: MS. HOWELL: tagged -- MS. GOETZ~ Yeah, the community. Exactly. You' re protecting the community. MS. HOWELL: -- eventually if they came out of compliance and have to go before Code Compliance, so this is just to stop all that process from happening in the first place. MS. GOETZz You know, I just think that -- I mean, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 4 115 is it 10 percent of the sites that are developed in Collier County that are a problem or is it 90 percent? And what you' re doing is you' re impacting a hundred percent of them for perhaps a ten percent problem, and I was Just hoping that you would also explore other ways of doing that, of Just affecting that ten percent that's a problem. It's just an opinion. And you may hear more about that tonight. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Have you got any recommendation as to what to explore? MS. GOETZ: I think the fining. I really do think that you should be looking at the sites that don't meet the codes and fine them rather than saying across the board we're going to put a performance bond on every single develo~ent in Collier County. Anyway, the other issue was, had to do with tree heights and evidently a compromise has been reached, which is acceptable to me. The only other thinq that p£obab!y is a little excessive has to do with the shrub code, a double staggered row of shrubs, and I just question-- I know there's some people on that committee that felt very OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 4 5 116 strongly about that. I really question that in the real world. Is that really necessary? COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: What about that, Joe? I mean, the double row of -- MS. GOETZ: Shrubs. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: -- shrubs. MR. DELATE~ Okay. May I address that in a second? I would like to talk -- COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Sure. MR. DELATE= -- before the issue of bonding again. I think the reason why that we went with that option was, again, the manpower. We felt that that would actually require less of the county's time to come in and do one inspection after the 12-month period and then look at the bond. The problem I think is because from my own recollection from driving around the county, I've lived here over 10 years, I would say that probably 50 percent of the landscapes are out of compliance in Collier County. And it's a great-- number, and I think that's where the concern was coming from. It's not 10 percent. I think it's close to 50 percent or more that are outside OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c ¢z 117 of compliance with our street code. And I think that's the reason we've looked at the bonding issue. I think we can take another look at that and if necessary meet with Ellin and the other concerned people. COMMISSIONER S~ANAHAN: Sure. MS. GOETZ: You know, if 50 percent are out of compliance, then why not a fine structure that makes money for the county if there are so many bad guys out there and could also fund the position that you' re talking about? MR. DELATE MR. OLLIFF Okay. Well, we could explore that. I think that's got some merit and there's nobody better in the county probably than Ellin to work with and try to develop some language and you know, she's done a lot of work on a previous landscape code effort and if you'd get with Joe, MS. GOETZ: Thank you. And then the shrubs. Talk about the shrubs. MR. DELATE: As far as the shrubs go, the reason why we went with the double row with our draft that you' re looking at was there was a conceived problem of I'd appreciate it. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c~ 118 the opacity of hedges along the highways of Collier County. The required hedge usually comes into play where you have a vehicular use area, which is a parking lot or a driveway adjacent to a roadway. The perceived problem is that the hedges we have now are very spotty and they' re not opaque like they' re supposed to be. And the reason why we went with the double rows, we felt that was a solution to the problem of the opacity of the hedges. That would allow the hedges to grow thicker and it would give you more mass, density and vegetation along the roadways. And that was derived from the committee meetings and had s~meone propose that alternative and we went with that. MS. GOETZz I think it's overkill, frankly, and that's -- you may hear that opinion again in this room tonight, so I'll leave it at that. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Does it relate to cost, though, or is it aesthetic considerations again? MS. GOETZ: Functional. The functional purpose of the hedge is to screen so~,ething behind it. And what they're trying to do, again, is to solve what I would OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 5 c- 119 call a 10 percent or a 15 percent problem. Or maybe it's larger than that, but again, in all times back into compliance. If you write the code so that it's more of a performance thing, in other words, within a year this area shall be fully screened, then they don't have any recourse. But rather than specifying exactly what it is in terms of the design of how you meet that code is what I have a problem with, because it doesn't always work. You know, every site is different. But I thank the staff for making some of the compromises that they have made to date. So thank you. MR. OLLIFF: Next speaker is Michael Fernandez. And while Michael's coming, Just for general knowledge, I think it's one to one, bottom of the fifth. After Michael, Gene Cox. MR. FERNANDEZ: I for one appreciate that update. My name is Michael Fernandez, for the record. I do have a couple issues I would like to bring your attention to, basically some opinions on the PUD requirements and on some landscaping. First of all, on page 3 -- on page 2-32, dealing OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 5 120 with the conditional uses for mixed residential and commercial uses, it's my understanding that the Comp Plan basically is attempting and we as a community are attempting to encourage mixed use develo~nent and that's something that I think that the timing's right's going to start happening. In the recommendations, Items D, E, F, G and K, as ones who has designed mixed use development, I don't find that these are always true. In fact, in many cases and frequently successful solutions don't have -- don't meet these restrictions. And I would ask that because you're having to go through a PUD process that perhaps the most appropriate method would be on a case-by-case basis. In other words, let the merit of the project be your gauge because these issues -- for instance, even in the, a few of the mixed use developments that were passed in the City of Naples would not meet these requirements as well as with the, on the next page on 33 the maximum floor area where it says the maximum square footage of 25,000 square feet for a building. I find that overly restrictive as well. In other words, mixed use developments can't have buildings that have over 25,000 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 121 square feet. So I would ask that these issues be deleted for a requirement as far as measurement standards for mixed use develoim~ent and that you do review these on a case-by-case basis. I think that would be a lot more effective. MS. CACC~IONE: I would just like to address those comments. First of all, this is mixed use within the commercial district. This is not a PUD. These are requirements that currently exist in your zoning ordinance today in the C-3 District. And finally, the last requirement is a requirement of the Comp Plan and it only applies to those areas that are zoned in the C-1 transitional area. So that needs to stay in there. MR. FERNANDEZ: Are these conditional uses, though, still? In other words, there is a review process that you would have the opportunity to review to see if the proposed develo~nent merits your approval, and I would still suggest just your consideration on those points. Going on, on page 2-50 regarding Planned Unit Developments and the language in the LDR basically does not incorporate what the Comp Plan says is that there OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 122 shall not be a minimum standard for lands within the Activity Center for PUD's. The new LDR's are saying it's a ten acre minimum size and I find that again somewhat restrictive, and, of course, the current standards was five acres and the Comp Plan is basically stating that it should be-- there should be no minimum acreage in Activity Centers. And my understanding is that that's a given because it's in the Comp Plan. But I think we'll have problems, you know, further on because the LDR's really what's going to be ruling. MS. CACCI~IONE: I think staff agrees with Michael and we can incorporate that change knowing that there's still an overriding concern and requirement that all zonings have to meet certain minimum acreages, but that in Activity Centers what he says is true that they are permitted to be less than the minimbTn acreage in Activity Centers, so we can clarify that language. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: But what would be the -- like in Golden Gate Estates, in Golden Gate we do have a two and a half acre minimum for PUD's. MS. CACC~IONE: In Golden Gate? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c c_ 123 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Golden Gate along the Parkway in those commercial areas we have a minimum of two and a half acres for PUD's. MS. CACCHIONE: That's correct. That is not located in an Activity Center. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So this is just in an Activity Center. MS. CACCHIONE: That's correct. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So what's the change? Just so that I understand, what are you saying, you have two and a half acres being PUD in an Activity Center? MS. CACCHIONE: It would allow for reduced minimum acreages in Activity Centers; that there would be no minimum acreage other than what's normally required for any rezonings in an Activity Center because that coincides with what the Comp Plan says that there is no minimum acreage in an Activity Center. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: What' s happening, though, in our Activity Centers is we're talking about a mixed use development, which is what this gentleman was just talking about, and if you allow, you know, PUD's of minimum size, you're going to end up -- you know, I don't OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 124 know how you're going to do your mixed use within those Activity Centers. MS. CACC~IONE: I think you raise a good point and the language in the plan itself is even a little more convoluted than that in that it just refers to commercial PUD's. It doesn't even refer to mixed use PUD's. And it may be that we need to re-evaluate the language in the plan and maybe adjust that to encourage larger projects that are mixed use. MR. FERNANDEZ: Yeah, I would agree with you, Mr. VolDe, that you have to have -- to do a mixed use, for instance, it's a set amount of acreage. We're in the process right now of putting one together for five acres and we believe we' re successfully coming up with a solution for that. So there does probably need to be a minimum, but ten acres is just too much. And to be consistent with the Comp Plan, I believe we have to put a minimum, and maybe it's going to take an amendment to the Comp Plan, but until that time, I would just ask that we be consistent with what it says nc~. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Now you're saying five is okay but ten is too much. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 7 125 MR. FERNANDEZ: Yeah. I think five -- the Comp plan right now says that there is no minimum. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Right. MR. FERN~NDEZ: And so, you know, personally I think five is a good number. somewhere. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: works for you right now. C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: You've got to draw a line That fits your plan, so five Okay. I understand. Okay. MR. FERNANDEZ: Then if I may, just a couple of -- since we' re on PUD's, regarding the time limits for PUD's, I do have one comment and that's with regard to the sunsetting provision and I know we've worked out some of this language in one of the PUD's that we presented to you, but in regard to the commissioners having to make a decision on what the appropriate rezoning may be, if the applicant doesn't fulfill these requirements, I would offer a suggestion that perhaps we can pick up what Lee County is doing and that ~.s you retain the existing zoning. In other words, it docsn't change from PUD to agriculture or to C-1 or whatever. Instead, you vacate OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 7 126 the master plan and essentially that forces the applicant to come back with the revised PUD. And I think that would be more appropriate and there would be a lot less debate then. I Just think it's much cleaner system and so I'd offer that for consideration. And finally, on the landscaping requirements, I have two c~mments. The first being relative to trees. The requirement that's being proposed, and I'm not sure what it is right now, one tree for every 150 square feet or one tree for every 100 square feet I believe is a little excessive. In other words, you're basically saying that these shades trees that are going to be planted have a spread or a -- that's going to probably reach 25 feet or 20 feet, I forget which, and yet you're allowing only a 10 by 10 area for each tree. And we' re currently working on plans, for instance that have 800 square feet islands in a parking area. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: What is the requirement? MR. DELATE: Originally was we proposed 1 to 150 for interior landscaped a£~.as. Through the Planning Commission an individual made a suggestion or a proposal OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 7 127 to make that 1 to 100, which we currently have in our current code and the Planning Commission adopted it as 1 to 100. MR. FERNANDEZ: I just think it would be more appropriate that you come back and have something that seems to be a little bit more reasonable, and I'd also like to offer that I agree with Ellin's comments that she made about the landscaping code relative to the bonding issue and also relative to the hedges. And finally, I'd like to address very quickly the buffer widths that have been recommended. And one of the issues -- the issue that I take with that is that we' re recommending buffers of 10, 15 and 20 feet and along the roadway I can see where that's necessary. When you have two commercial developments side by side and you're required 10 or 15 feet, depending on the situation, you put even 10 feet next to 10 feet, what we now have is a swatch of land that's 20 feet wide, which is a considerable piece of property for the length of the property line. And it's a shame that that piece of property can't be put to good use. But I think it's excessive to have the, you know, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 7 128 for instance to have a buffer of 20 feet between two parking lots, which is going to be the usual case because of larger setbacks for other uses. It just seems a little excessive and I would suggest that perhaps these buffers need to be more closely modeled to what they're being buffered from. And along the roadway, yes, you've got traffic and so forth and you' re being -- it's suggested that you need 20 feet there along the roadway, 15 or 20 and you've got all this traffic. And essentially between two commercial properties you don't have that intensity of need and so I just think it's a little excessive and it's limiting development to too great of a degree. I'd rather be able to use that open space in a more creative manner elEewhere. MR. DELATE~ The reason why we proposed the greater buffering on the side yards which Mr. Fernandez was referring to is the situation where you have, currently you have, depending on the neighboring properties, anywhere from five to ten feet. What we're proposing is a minimum of ten feet; the reason being landscapers, and I've talked to many of them, are having problems planting OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 7 129 vegetation in a five-foot strip because it ends up being a deep V swale or retention area. They've had nowhere to plant the trees which give you the shading, the buffering, the microclimate, et cetera, that we're seeking. And also the larger area gives you an opportunity to retain sc~ne of the native vegetation on the site, which is consistent with the xeriscape, which we're trying to push throughout Collier County. And the other concern that Mr. Fernandez addresses is that you might have these 20-foot strips. The concern I see is that a lot of times you'll abut a property that's already existing and they might have zero or only five feet on that current property and your proposed property might come in ten feet, so it's not going to be twenty feet all the time. A lot of times it might only be 15 cumulative or it might only be 10, depending on the situation. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Is the purpose of the buffer as between these c~nmercial areas, is it for aesthetic purposes? MR. DELATE~ I think it's for many reasons. If you OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 7 130 look through the purpose and intent of our code, there's a lot of reasons; enviror~ental factors, buffering factors, compatibility factors, and microclimate shade. It's not Just so you don't see the next building but to give them the ability to have landscaping so they .can shade the paved areas, et cetera, and also for an opportunity to have some area to actually plant in. MR. FERNANDEZ: ! would just like to add that I do have a great many other comments but I forward these to staff and Just ask that they take a look at those, and I would ask that you again perhaps address those mixed use standards and give what I said consideration and I thank you for your time. COMMISSIONER VOLPE~ Thank you. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Joe, while you're up there, the double hedge question, there seems to be quite a bit of concern about the deuble hedging, whether it's really functional in relationship to the cost, the increase in costs. Are we really getting benefit for that extra hedge line and is it really necessary. I think you need to review that and assure ~.~, at least me, that that really is necessary and functional. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 8 C C__. 131 MR. DET~%TE ~ Okay. I'll do that. C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Is there another speaker? MR. OLLIFF: The next speaker is Gene Cox, followed ~y Hank Buckhannan. MR. COX: Good evenlag. My name is Gene Cox. I'm a resident of Collier County and I'm speaking in behalf of the nurserymen of Collier County and the Florida Nurserymen & Growers Association. I think the staff has done an excellent job reviewing and editing a landscape code that a group of us drafted a couple years ago. I agree with most of the changes they've made; however, I do have one major concern, and that's with the tree height. The proposed code as it stands now is calling for 12, 10 foot and 8 foot trees to be planted. When we go to 12 and 10 foot trees, small nurserymen like myself are going to be hurt. We do not have the labor, manpower, nor the machinery to handle large containers grown trues. And trees of that size are going to have to be grown in at least 25- to 45-gallon containers. We don't have facilities or the capability of doing this. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 132 The other thing is that in doing this there aren't enough nurseries here in Collier County to supply the needs for those size trees, so consequently you're going to be sending the business, the nursery business for large trees, you're going to be sending it out of .the county. So as a consequence, about 60 percent of the tree business is going to be lost to the nurseries here in Collier County. We're suggesting instead that we go to an 8 foot tree grown in a 15-gallon container which will assure you that it has an inch and a half calipe[ which is measured 12 inches above the ground, and we feel that would suffice because if planted properly and maintained properly in the year's time, depending on the species, you can obtain 2 to 4 feet of growth, so you'll get to your 10 and 12 foot trees. The other thing is there's been s~ne research done at a number of colleges in regards to large trees, and when I speak of large trees, I'm talking about the 12 and so forth, which generally have to be field grown. It's a well-known fact that container grown trees adopt, adapt to the site much sooner than field grown trees. Not in OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 133 all instances, but in some cases. A good example was up in Pelican Bay when they first planted oak trees in the medians. For years some of those oak trees didn't go anywhere. In fact, most of them had to be taken out. But my main concern is the fact that the small nurserymen here in Collier County are going to lose about 60 percent of their tree business because it's going to have to go out of town. Thank you. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Have we made any compromises on the tree program? MR. DELATE~ Yes, we have. Originally, we had proposed that 60 percent of the trees be 12 foot tall and I believe 30 percent being 10 foot tall and the remainder being 8 foot tall, so we've come down to where it's 33 percent of each now. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN= A third, a third and a third. MR. DELATE.. Cot rect. COMMISSIONER HASSE: You still have a problem then. MR. DELATE: They still have a problem with it. I think -- I understand their concern. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c c 134 Again, this is a consensus between the staff, the committee and the general public through our meetings that we came up with these standards. The reasons being we wanted some kind of diversity in tree sizes. We wanted to have larger trees, some large[ trees to .have more of a visual impact when you drive down the ~road or you enter a site. And I think it was also backlash to what we' re getting presently, which is as people term it a buggywhip, basically a thin, wispy tree that we're getting with our current code. I think a lot of that was a backlash from that. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Well, you're talking here an inch and a half caliper. What does that say to you? That's not a wisp of a tree. MR. DELATE~ No, not what he's proposing. I'm saying what we currently have. We just have a seven foot tree. We don't have any caliper or spread or any other standard. COMMISSIONER SHANAJ{AN: We're going from 7, Joe, to 8, 10 and 127 MR. DELATE ~ Correct. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 135 COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: You know, that seems to be, you know, a quantum leap from where we are. Now, you know, it might be Just a little bit too severe. MR. DELATE: Well, I would have to say that in response to that I've researched probably 20 or 30 counties throughout the State and very many of these codes of these other counties and cities require that similar size tree is 8, 10 and 12 foot trees. And I'd Just like to point out that we're trying to create a vision here; that this code will carry us into the next century. And I think that maybe -- COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: I can appreciate the vision. MR. DELATE~ It just doesn't seem that excessive. MR. BUCKHANNAN~ My name's Hank Buckharman, landscape architect, landscape contractor, nurseryman, all of the above. Most of the items that have been covered tonight, the one that really concerns me that we need to look at is the bonding issue, and we're talking about nurseries or landscape contractors being bonded. I think primarily we're talking about a performance bond. We' re not OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 9 136 talking about bonding for guaranteeing a job to be in compliance a year later. Most -- I myself -- we are not in the maintenance business. When we complete a job, the job is turned over to the owner, and it's the owner's responsibility.to maintain that planting from that time forward. My concern is that there are many small nurserymen in this county who would not be bondable, and you're going to hurt these individuals as well. I have not seen any figures whatsoever as to what these bonds are going to cost. Sure, you can buy a bond at any price. You can pay any kind of amount of money. So we need to have some answers as to what a bond is going to cost. One of the biggest problems as far as maintaining the landscaping is not only after the first year but two years, five years down the road. That bond does not do any good in that instance. There are methods that the county now has that for instance you can place a lien on the piece of property if they don't maintain i~.. If they don't mow the lots right now, the county has the capability of going in and liening these properties. I see no reason why this same technique OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 9 C. C. C- 137 cannot be used for making sure that the landscaping is maintained, as I say, not only after the first year but five years down the road as well. And as I say, I think the bonding issue is a real problem dollar-wise. And also, when we're talking about costs as far as the tree sizes are concerned, we've made some adjustments on that, but actually you're looking at additional costs as much as 350 percent over and above the costs of an 8 foot tree when you go from the 12 foot -- from the 8 foot trees, the 12, 10 and 8 combination. As I say, it's about a 350 percent increase. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Next speaker? MR. OLLIFF: Next speaker is Tom Henning. The chairman of your Citizen's Advisory Committee wanted to make a few comments as to the landscape code, so maybe when Mr. Henning's done he can make some comments to s~marize some of that. Go ahead. MR. HENNING: For the record, my name is Tom Henning, a resident of Gelden Gate and a business owner. I'd like to-- new landscaping, hopefully it's going to bring their businesses looking a lot better in the Golden Gate area. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 10 138 My concern is we're building, putting in this nice landscaping for the businesses but what are we going to do for the duplexes and the triplexes and multi-families? They have no -- the present ones have no trees at all. Under the Land Development Code, if new business remodels up to 20 percent, they have to come up t¢ new code, such as landscaping. Non-conformities vacant after 90 days have to come up to new codes such as landscaping. If the building is destructed such as fire or an act of God, up to 50 percent has come up to new codes. Why can't we adopt something in for the multi-family? COMMISSIONER VOLPE.. I think that's a good suggestion. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Have you addressed anything like that? MR. HENNING~ It's in there? MR. DELATE: The only thing we've addressed is new construction. We have a proposal for a couple of trees for single-family duplex, but that was orlly for new construction. We have not addressed anything that's currently constructed. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Can we not address -- can we OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 (2 139 not address those existing structures at the present time? MR. DELATE: I think -- I've thought about this. I really don't see how the mechanism -- how we actually can do it. I think that that's going to be the concerns, how actually would you implement it. It's not like the county really would get involved in knowing that a duplex was unoccupied. We don't actually issue any kind of license or permit for someone to move in once it's actually been C.O.'d the first time. MR. HENNING: Excuse me. Couldn't we work -- couldn't the staff work with Florida Power & Light? I know when they vacate they shut the electricity off and some of those sit vacant for six months. MR. OLLIFF.. I think vacancy makes some sense when we're talking about non-conformity and things but I think in the case where we' re talking about single-family or multi-family kind of structures, maybe some of those percentages of improvements or destruction and reconstruction are the kinds of issues where we may want to focus, and I think that's got some merit. COMMISSIONER HASSE: I think I know what Mr. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c c- c 140 ~enning's speaking about. You know, some of those duplexes aren't worth well-being any place in this county. MR. BENNING~ Especially on 40th and Terrace. COMMISSIONER HASSE: I didn't say anything. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. MR. HENNING: to consider and maybe we can make it all look nice. I just thought it would be something Thank you. Mark? Maybe something can be done. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: COMMISSIONER HASSE: MR. DELATE: Staff can explore that for the next meeting. We'll come back with some information. C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: You've got one more speaker? MR. OLLIFF.. I've got one more registered speaker on the landscape issue. Sid Showalter. MR. SHOWALTER: Thank you. I'm Sid Showalter. I'm a landscape contractor and also a citizen here in Naples, or Collier County. I'd like to talk about the size of the trees and the shrubs here because ~ think it's a very important issue. And I can say to the staff and Mr. Richardsoh's group if they continue or if you decide to go with the 8, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 141 10 and 12 foot trees, as a businessman in the landscape business, I say thank you very much because you' re going to increase the cost of minimum code 375 percent. I've got those figures here. I've given them to the county c~nmissioners. I appreciate that. It gives me a chance to make more money. Now, there's two other things which bother me and that's the reason I speak here tonight. First of all, common sense and second of all, integrity. I have a problem going someplace and putting something in which is not what I feel is in the best interest. I don't feel this is in the best interest. Now, to give you county commissioners -- I've talked to some of you but I haven't talked to all of you. A little background on this. Back in 1988 John Begeman who was the county agent got together Ellin Goetz, which he mentioned; Jim Vanice; Chris Anderson from the U.S. Forestry Department; Gene Cox who spoke; Dana Fendrick who works with Wilson, Miller; Ter~t Feldrum who works with the City of Naples; Jerry Ellis who is manager of Pro Tree Farm and the district president of Florida Nursery Growers Association; and John Begeman. They met OFFICIAl, COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 142 for two years. This is what they gave. And I'm going to give this to you because on page 19 they recommend a seven foot Florida number one tree. That's 7 foot tall, an inch and quarter, 12 inches above the ground caliper with a nice spread on it with a nice trunk. Not a buggywhip which they' re talking about. Now, the problem we have, and I've been in business almost seven years down here and when I started out, I did a lot of these industrial complexes around. We got involved with this. The reason trees don't grow are two reasons: One, is they don't get enough water. Now, the new code requires a sprinkler system. That will take care of that one. The second reason they don't grow is because when they put the lime rock in for the black topping, they take it and they shove the excess over into the landscape area, so you've got to go pick your hole to plant the tree. And I can take you to a lot of places if you look at the tree it's been the:e three or four years and it's probably not any taller and you dig down there and that's in lime rock. My suggestion is similar in the code. They prevent OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 l0 c ~-. C_ 143 the site development people from shoving this excess lime lock in there and that eliminates the problem. Now, we've talked to the staff there. Every single landscape contractor and nurserymen that I know agrees that a seven foot tree would be quite sufficient, or an eight foot, because it's going to grow. I talked to Charlie Laugherty (phonetic) last night who used to be the county agent before John Begeman and I was telling him about this and I said 12 foot trees, that's ridiculous because they've got to be dug out, the roots are damaged and they've got to grow. You know, it takes them awhile to grow their roots back before they can start growing again. Well, the ones that come in containers are going to grow faster. Now, I've given you some figures on this thing and I gave you an example which is across the street here. It's a 250 by 150 foot lot. trees and about 95 shrubs. for minimum code is $2,0C0. Present code calls for 21 To put that in with a mulch If you do it the way these gentleman want to do it, you're increasing that cost to $7500. That's 375 percent. Now, you know, if I was a county commissioner and I OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 144 was running for office, I don't know whether I'd want that on my back that I'd voted for something and increased it 375 percent. We suggested that you go with an eight foot tree. Now, that's going to increase it from 2,000 to 4,~00 and some dollars. That's more than 200 percent. If you go with a seven foot tree, which I have these figures here, you're going to go to 2,000 to 336 -- $3,336. So you're still increasing it a bund -- well, 46 percent over what existingly it is. So, you know, I'm up here to just give you these figures and I'll give you this, what the members of the committee did back in 1988 and I think it's up to you to make the decision because I don't think the staff gave you all the figures and facts for you to make a right decision. So that's all I want to do. On the bonding, I would suggest that we go to a citation and whoever you want to make them be able to write citations, I would De more than hapi~y as a landscape contractor to .%ave a contract with the county to go into all these people that have been cited and haven't fixed it, I would be happy to go in and fix that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 145 for you and then you can go ahead and turn to lien the property and then pay me when -- you know, that would not be a bad contract. I'd like to have that. And I think that would take care of that solution. Oh, the double row of hedges. Can I speak 30 seconds on that? The problem with the double row of hedges is first of all when you line them up there, 36 inches apart, you only got 36 inches to grow this way and then they start growing into each other. That means each plant grows 18 inches and then they're next to each other. Okay. You put those in there and then you come across and you've got another row right next to it so that means both -- there's two sides on that plant or three sides on that plant are not going to be able to grow because they're growing 18 inches and then they grow into another one. Somebody suggested spread the rows out, but, you know, that's ridiculous. So, I would say that if you' re going to make the decision, put the pencil to it because it's liable to be a political issue and, you Know, I know a good ccmmissioner is concerned about doing what's right. So, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 146 I would suggest to you the seven foot or eight foot trees. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I think there was a comment made about the code and all the work that had been done previously and that was I guess at lrast the point at the beginning for the development and this provision of our land development regulations. MR. OLLIFF: That was the last on the landscape, and Mark, if you've got some comments you want to make. Just general update again, I think it's 1/1, top of the 7th. MR. MORTON: Yes, Mark Morton, Chairman of the Unified Land Development Code Committee. I guess my comments on landscaping and buffering Just maybe in general was the intent that the committee had tried to accomplish with staff was to I guess beautify the community. We felt that one thing that everybody in any land develo~nent, in any project, in any building was the people &!ways compliment how great the landscaping looks. So we had gone from the approach that we were attempting to come up with a, you know, best possible code we could. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 12 147 Staff was working from the code that had been worked on for many years by the committee and members of those people have come up here tonight. During the committee meetings when we finally got down to the ninth hour and we were trying to make all the deadlines, there were members of that code committee, Ellin Goetz was one of them, and there were others that were sitting in those meetings and we were trying to hash out what those sizes of the trees, et cetera, should be. And I'm not a nurseryman and I think it's great that they have come forward and have, you know, suggestions. And from what I understood, that they'd worked out quite a bit of those with the staff. Terms of bonding issue, we -- you know, it was brought up to us by the citizens at large that you drive anywhere in Collier County and none of the shrubs are three feet tall and there's dead trees in the parking lots and a lot of things have been there one year, two years, three years, and we tried to grapple with what's the best way to solve th,~t. The main concern of staff was how many code enforcement people could we hire to go around throughout OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 148 the county and, you know, enforce, measure three feet on the shrub and then contact the person and make them replace them, et cetera. I'll give you an example. The shrubs at Horseshoe Drive Compliance Services building are three feet .tall and the code guys walk by them all day long. I don't know why they haven't been turned in and they're not three feet, they're being trimmed at less than three feet, but that's the case. So, you know, these points are brought up to us, photographs displayed in the committee meeting. You know, what do you do to that? You ~have to answer it. And we thought we did the best we could with it, but you've heard some good points today. I don't know what the solution to that is. Hopefully Ellin can get with staff and I know our citizens at large would sure be very vocal in those meetings. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Madam Chairman, one comment, because obviousXy we still want to give some direction to s%aff. Every t~me we make a decision on something like OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 12 C- O. 149 landscaping, we add a significant cost to doing business and at some point in time we' re going to get to the point where nobody can afford to open a new business and I understand the merits of making sure that what is put into the ground works and I think we can deal with that issue. The specter of increasing the costs of landscaping by 200 percent or 300 percent or 400 percent just doesn't make any sense. If that means that it's going to take a year or two years or three years for the trees to get to the size that we really ultimately want them to be, that's -- at this point I would say so be it and let's try to keep the cost of doing business down to something reasonable. I would suggest that we go with the smaller trees as recommended by several speakers, you know, seven foot or eight foot, whatever it turns out to be. Perhaps what we need to do is have some additional enforcement mechanism for what if the shrubbery and the trees and whatever that doesn't wo[k then I think we have to take some action, but single row of shrubs also, I think, makes sense. Just my opinion. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 150 COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Is that the end of it? MR. MORTON: Yeah. I think if you had to really s~marize it, it's the enforcement issue, and that's where a lot of this came out of was it's not being enforced, so how do you resolue that. COMMISSIONER S}{ANAHAN: Just 30 seconds-- as far as I'm concerned, I think it's a quantun leap. It's too much too quick, and I think we ought to look at the eight foot tree as maybe the answer. You're going to review the hedging as well, so I support Burt's position insofar as we all want the co~munity to be beautiful and certainly it enhances the quality of life and so on, but I just can't see going from $2,000 to $7,000 to achieve that at this point in time. MR. RIf:4ARDSON~ Madam Chairman, Members of the Commission, Dwight Richardson. I think you'[e being misled ~y focusing on percentages and quantum ~eaps when the base against which percentages applied is such a small number because our currently required landscaping in the code is so minimal that if you increase it up to some modic~ that we' re OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 13 151 talking about in this 2.4, the pe£centage begins to sound large, but if you take $2,000 and increase it to $8,000 and you're talking about a $3,000,000 project, I don't think that is out of scale, or take any other million dollar. You can't put up a commercial site around here for less than several hundred thousand dollars. And the kind of frontage we're talking about, the buffer strips, we' re talking about a tree every 25 or 30 feet. You're talking about hedging that has to reach 36 inches within a year. A double row is because the hedges are not functioning today. You can go up and down 41, Airport-Pulling. I ask you to take a look before you make this final decision. I can show you pictures of the hedges that are in there right now. They've got holes and gaps which can perhaps be taken care of through Compliance Services. They have not over the past year been taken care that way. I think a better solution than the one that the staff and committee came up with was to functionally make it right at the beginning. And if you functionally make it right by putting in two rows, then you've got a better OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 152 chance for that to function in the manner in which the landscape code is asking; that is, as buffering and screening. The percent -- don't get misled by focusing on these percents. Look at the actual uollars and then see if the size project and what we're trying to accomplish in our community isn't worthwhile. You say we're going to come back and change this landscape code at any time in the future, don't bet on it. This is our shot. Let's make it as good as we possibly can at this time. Thank you. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Rich.~rdson, how does the committee feel -- I know there's a lot of time and effort that's gone into it and I think some remarks have been made are well made about the height of the tree. I mean, there seems to be really only two issues that I've heard. One has to do with whether we should talk about 8, 10 and 12 and percentages and also the question about the double row of hedges. MR. RICHARDSON: lot of time at the-- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: On the tree height, we spent at And the bonding. I'm sorry. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 153 MR. RICHARD~ON~ Okay. We spent a lot of time at the Planning Commission on this and the Planning Cc~mission members felt as did staff and the cc~mittee that a diversity in plant material and tree types would be worthwhile. If you focus on one set, on the seven foot height trees, you're going to get seven foot height trees all across the county and there's going to tend to be of all one type. If you put in a diversity of standards with some 12's, some 10's and some 8's with some spreads and some caliper sizes of the standards, then you' re going to encourage a different distribution of plant material and that's going to add to the beauty of our o~n landscaping. Seven foot tress will grow, but I've got to tell you, I agree with what the landscape people have said. They're putting in seven foot trees and they're staying seven foot for five years or six years. I've seen trees for all the time that I've been here that haven't grown an inch. So I think we'd do curselyes better if we start out with some different size trees, and the Planning OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 13 c c c 154 C_~mtsston felt very strongly on that point. As far as bonding is concerned, as Mark said, we wrestled with this. I think everybody recognizes it as a compliance problem. We had Heyward Boist (phonetic) in. We talked about Compliance Services; said how best can we handle this. We talked to the attorney's office. We talked with -- thought first we could lien all the properties like the mowing ordinance says. And we went around every path that we could think of and the incentive doesn't go in the right place unless you use bonding. That's where the incentive goes to the applicant. He has an incentive to make sure that plant material lasts for at least that first critical year. And I'm sure the nurserymen would support me in saying that if it lives the first year, it's got a good chance of surviving beyond that point. But if you let it die in that first year and we've got 50 percent of the projects that have deficiencies in them and no mechanism for the code enforcement people to deal with it in terms of being able to correct it through the bonding mechanism, if we don' t have that, I think OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 13 155 we're missing a great opportunity. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Thank you for your comments. MR. OLLIFF: Gary Beardsley. MR. BEARDSLEY: Gary Beardsley, resident of the county. I don't want to belabor this, but I think what the commissioners have before them is what do you want Collier County to look like. Do you want it to look like parts of it does now along the major thoroughfares, strip type of develoi~ent with few or many, hardly any trees at all or like up in Edison Mall in Fort Myers or do you want it to look like Sanibel Island? I hate to use that as a comparison because that's a barrier island that shouldn't have ever got that way, but one of the things people like about Sanibel is when they drive through there the perception is vegetation. It's not walls of buildings and concrete. So I think, you know, look down the road and say what do we want to do? Do we accept what we have now? I mean, I see indications all over that we aren't accepting it. I see nice landscape .~.n the City of Naples. I see Golden Gate landscaping. I think we need to keep that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 14 C' C: 156 idea of what do we want to see here. thing. That's the main Now, s~me of the things I hear, I hear terms like I would like to take that ten-foot buffer strip in a commercial area or industrial and put it to better use. That's been the problem all along. The developer tends to want to maximize the site and put it into usable, money-making efforts. The best xeriscape is leave the native plants that are there. And to say that the installer puts the plants in and said, Well it died because Joe Blow didn't water it for the full year, I would never put a plant in that needed to be watered for a full year. I do-- let me give you some of my background. I ran Dan Good Acres nursery operation. I ran Jim Vanice's nursery operation. I worked at Pelican Landscape Nursery, the pelican nursery out on 951. I have nursery exper ience. And the biggest problem is whether it be exotic or native plants, either thE: conditions of the site are wrong for that plant because of construction, I heard that, you know, you get the pick axe through a whole OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 14 157 bunch of lime rock fill, unless you put a red cedar in there which loves lime rock fill. You've got poor conditions. The other thing is you put the wrong plant in the wrong area. I mean, I hate to say it, but n'%rserymen when they do landscape jobs, they design and put in plants that they've got in their nursery. They don't want to have to broker nursery plants from Dade County or up in another area. They design what they have, whether it be pittosporum and all these kinds of exotics. So, I say -- and I remember in the native plant conditions when they talked about planting native plants, they had very specific-- is this the right plant for this area. And I think a lot of the plants in the poor landscape Jobs are because one, the conditions weren't right and the landscaper or installer was forced to try to fit this plant in and it was the wrong plant for the wrong area, temperature-wise, pH, or whatever. So I think -- again, think of the vision. Do we want the same old same old we've got now or do we want to end up with something that:u approaching a lot of green area and not seeing these walls of concrete. Thank you. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 X4 158 MR. OLLIFF'. That's the last landscape speaker. The next speaker was Pain MacKie, unless the board wanted to giYe direction on that landscape issue. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I think the direction-- we've heard the issues. What seems to be the three issues, I think that the staff's indicated that we' re going to get with Miss Goetz and see about working out some of the issues, the size of the -- the height of the trees and the hedge. Madam Chairman, we've been here for almost six hours with I think two ten-minute breaks. We've got a staff that's been presumably they worked all day long. Does the Chair know how much longer we may be here this evening? C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Well, I thought we'd be through by now, but I'm just seeing how it rolls, so we've got to finish up tonight because if we don't, we' re not going to be able to meet the timeline. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, I look just -- I mean, I look at -- I can't see myself in the mirror, but I can see some of the -- COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: You look bad. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 14 159 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Do I look bad? Cc~%missioner Shanahan's just full of compliments. I Just -- just in terms, I just make the point. I mean, I don't know how much longer -- I mean, I think there's some important issues. I don't know how much longer we have, if we have another couple hours of work. I mean, the staff has been here. I mean, I Just really don't know how much more we can absorb and really be effective in what it is that we' re about doing and I think we acknowledged the very first day that we were here that this is a major piece of So, I mean, I must tell you that I'm beat. legislation. I mean-- MR. OLLIFF: We've got eight speakers left. COMMISSIONER VOLPE~ Eight speakers left. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN ~ Eight? MR. OLLIFF~ Eight. Excuse me. I guess one of those is registered for every article. I'm sorry. MR. BEARDSLEY: That' s me. MR. TARI: Commissioners, I would like to just thank -- my name is Matt Tari. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Just -- maybe the Chair would OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 14 160 want to determine whether we should go to a time certain or whether you Just want to go ahead and finish however long it takes. Just so we know. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: speake rs. MR. TARI: Let's finish with the eight I'd like to make a comment on this last subject. Just an observation, if you would let me. MR. OLLIFF: Mr. Tari, they're having a discussion about something else, completely different. MR. TARI~ I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Just -- whatever. I'm just asking -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: We'll finish with the eight speakers and then we'll decide what we're going to do from there. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: just -- do we -- does the staff believe that we can effectively review the balance of the materials that are here after we've heard the eight speakers? MR. MADAJEWSKI: I believe so. One of the eight speakers is registered for Article III and the other articles. He is the only registered speaker for Article Well, except for the -- let me OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 14 15 161 III. Your staff has been waiting here for seven hours to present something that we feel is a done deal, and we would like to do it tonight and get it over with. MR. MERRILL: We don't use "deals." Anyway, my understanding is that there are very few areas of disagreements between all the people that have discussed these issues and we have -- I have a couple of them that I'll be able to fly through after the public has spoken and that should solve it, unless you have additional questions on issues. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Let's move ahead. Madam Chairman? CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mr. Tari. (Commissioner Volpe left the board room.) MR. TARI~ My name is Matt Tari. I'm a grower of trees and shrubs here. That's what my occupation is. I'd like to make one comment everybody's addressed, but there's one thing they've missed and maybe for the board to consider. Yes, it's true when you plant plants close together or have them there you' re going to have a lot of die back and they' re not going to look the best because OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 162 they only get the sun from three sides. So that's something you should consider. But there is one more thing that you should consider. A lot of this county has a cold spell comes through in the wintertime and some of those trees .that the landscapers would be putting in might get hit with a cold spell, a frost, and be knocked right out and that's going to become the responsibility of the landscaper and I don't think that should be adequate -- that should be adequately addressed in your ordinance that it's not their fault if it does die. Thank you. MR. DELATEz I believe we have that addressed. We have some criteria in the code where we would review the plant material based on the soil and the climate conditions and a couple of other criteria. MR. OLLIFF: Pam. MS. MacKIE: Pam MacKie, for the record. I have just a very small comment about the sunset provision that I've briefly discussed with staff. The way the sunset provision is drafted right now, it says that you only hav~ two alternatives. On the fifth anniversary of a fezone, the Development Services OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 15 163 Director reviews the PUD to determine whether or not construction has commenced. If construction has commenced, then nothing happens. But if construction has not commenced, the only alternative is for the project to come back in front of you for you to determine whether or not you want to make changes. My only suggestion is -- the reason this is in here is the Comp Plan requires a review of zoning every five years to ensure continued compliance. There are plenty of projects out there, FUD's that have been developed since the Comp Plan was adopted. (Ccmmissioner VolDe returned to the board room.) And an alternative, something that's going to come up is your staff's going to review a PUD to determine whether or not construction has commenced. They may find the PUD where construction has not commenced but that PUD is in full compliance with the current Comprehensive Plan. If it is in full compliance with the Comp Plan, instead of having to come back in front of you and tell you that it's in full compliance with the Comp Plan, it seems like you could authorize the Development Services OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 164 Director to recognize that no further action is needed until the next five-year review. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: What's the problem with bringing it back before the Board of County C ~0_~mis sione r s? MS. MacKIE: Politics. COrM ISS IONER SAUNDERS: Politics? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Is that -- that's the only problem? Thank you very much. MS. MacKIE~ No. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Thank you very much. MS. MacKIE: No, politics is a problem. But more significantly, your agenda is a problem. Getting in front of you and how booked your agenda is and how much you have to revie~ every week. And it's a waste of time. If the purpose of the review is to determine whether or not you' re in compliance with the Comp Plan, your staff certainly can do that for you. MS. CACCHIONE: Barbara Cacchione. The purpose of the five-year review of zoning is a number of things. One is consistency with the plan, but it's also future appropriateness of land use and future OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 16 165 compatibility, adequate public facilities down the road. There may be a change in roads being constructed in a certain location and you may want that opportunity to re-evaluate that zoning and you may determine at some point in the future that that density is appropriate and should stay or is inappropriate and should be rezoned to another lower classification. So there are several reasons, and I think Pam's correct, consistency with the plan is one, but there are also others as well. MS. MacKIE: Are there any others that wouldn't be addressed, though, by Adequate Public Facilities Ordinance and other, you know, what's already in place. I think don't think there -- I think that the only concern that wouldn't be addressed by the Adequate Public Facilities Ordinance is compliance with the Comp Plan. MS. CACC~IONE= The Adequate Public Facilities Ordinance is a monitoring mechanism where certificates are issued that you're --you have appropriate facilities on the property. It doesn't address when road construction may change due to board decisions and things may change in the future. It is more of a monitoring mechanism and the board would have the flexibility to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 166 relook at those land uses down the road. MR. BAGINSKI: Primarily I think probably what we're saying is primarily the advantage of coming back as Barbara's explained or mentioned before would be perhaps unforeseen things or items that the existing ordinance, even Adequate Public Facilities would not address and that probably would be compatibility of some of the other projects that had been developed or taken place around it in that five years and then of course you would have the option to determine again if that existing undeveloped PUD is compatible and comparable in nature with those other devel o~ents. MS. MacKIE: I Just think you' re going to have a lot of this. I mean, you really are asking for a lot of these to be on your agenda because you' re well aware of how many FUD's are out there, how many are going to be coming up for re-evaluation. And it seems like if it's consistent with the Comp Plan and if the development orders can be issued pursuant to the Adequate Public Facilities Ordinance, then I don't know what other issues, you know, need review. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I think -- OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c c , c 167 MR. BAGINSKI: Excuse me. COMMISSIONER VOLPE= i'm sorry. Go ahead. MR. BAGINSKI: We've given some consideration to exactly how this procedure would work and probably rather than individually that we would probably look at these in batches in a five anniversary date. In other words, the staff would do the analysis, put together staff reports that would address all of those projects with the five-year expiration period and bring those to the board for a recommendation other than a week-by-week or meeting-by-meeting basis. At least that's what the intent would be now. MR. MERRILL~ If I may, the other aspect of bringing it to the board, one of the requirements of your Growth Management Plan is that we have an automatic reverter for all rezonings. Myself and your County Attorney's Office did not feel that was legal, but we felt we had to come as close to that as possible while still being legal, and that is by bringing it to the board for consideration. But again, your Growth Management Plan requires an automatic reverter to the previous zoning district every OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 16 168 five years if it hasn't been constructed. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Originally the sunset provision was six years and you brought it back to five, didn't you? MR. MERRILL: Right. We brought it back to.five because of that mistake on our part. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Thank you. MS. MacKIE~ Just one little last technicality then. If the way this is going to be done is in batches, you know, once a month or something, the way it currently reads is that you get re-evaluated on the anniversary, on the fifth ann/versary of the zoning approval. So if it's not going to be. on the anniversary of your zoning approval, -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We could change that to on or about. MS. MacKIE~ Good plan. CHAIRMA}~ GOODNIGHT: Next speaker. MR. OLLIFF: Next speaker is Bruce Anderson, followed by Robert Duane. MR. ANDERSON: Good evening, Commissioners. My name is Bruce Anderson. I served on your Land OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c c 169 Development Code Advisory Committee and I'm here about a matter that the zoning committee felt strongly about and it's found on page 2-50 of your code where it explains the purpose and intent of the Planned Unit Development District. COMMISSIONER SHANAH AN: 2-50? MR. ANDERSON: Yes, sir, 2-50. And you should have -- I think they're still pink, committee side sheet dealing with that. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: This is a point of disagreement between the co~unittee and the CCPC? MR. ANDERSON: Yes, sir. And it deals with whether in the future you are going to deviate from the practice that you have today and it now as a matter of course requires that Planned Unit Developments must contain a mixture of uses. Today that is not presently a r equir ement. The zoning subcommittee did not see an evil that needed to be remedied. And on top of all that, it is inconsistent with some of the provisions of your Comprehensive Plan which either requires or recommends that the Planned Unit Development District be utilized in OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 17 170 certain areas. The Urban Residential Fringe Subdistrict where it permits a maximum density of 1.5 units per acre states that all fezones must be in the form of a Planned Unit Development. The Urban Coastal Fringe Area states residential densities in this area will be limited to a maximum of four dwelling units per acre. Rezones are recommended to be in the form of a Planned Unit Development. The Activity Center Subdistrict states -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I think we have your point, Mr. Anderson. Does the staff have a response? He's saying this is inconsistent. MR. MERRILL~ I don't believe it's inconsistent because I think that what we're failing to look at is that we do have a cjuster provision as well. So if 4, 1.5 units per acre, whatever example was given, could also be cjustered and that could provide for a multi-family and a single-family or a combination of those. But as far as consistency goes, no, I don't believe it's inconsistent at this point, but I'd be happy to look OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 17 171 at that further. MR. ANDERSON~ Well, if a gentleman just wants to do single-family in the Urban Residential Fringe District, how can he do that because the Comp Plan says you must do it in the form of a Planned Unit Development but then the Land Development Code will say no, you can't Just do just strictly single-family. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Merrill? MR. MERRILL: I haven't looked at that issue, but I believe he's probably correct, but that's still not inconsistent with the -- it is not inconsistent with the Growth Management Plan, and that was the question, so -- in that regard, I still stand by the fact that it is consistent with the plan. What we have now, it does limit it, though, according to Bruce Anderson, I guess, it does limit it to single-family in that instance. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Something else, Mr. Anderson? MR. ANDERSON: No, ma'am. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Thank you. MR. OLLIFF: Follo~ing Mr. Duane is Bill Hoover. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Can we get -- can we just, Ms. Cacchione, do you have some thin9 to say about that? Can OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 l? 172 we get that? MR. D~ANE ~ too. sorry. I was going to speak to that issue, COMMISSIONER VOLPE: You're going to speak? I'm Go ahead. MR. DUANE: Good evening. For the record, I'm Robert Duane. I'm embarrassed to tell you that I'm fresh still, but I'll make my comments short. Mr. Anderson is correct. The PUD language is something that those of use who attended, and I probably attended 50 or 60 hours of those subcommittee meetings as a volunteer, felt strongly that introducing a new concept to PUD's that they had to be mixed uses, something we never understood what the pressing need was for. And I would encourage you if someone wants to come in with a golf course, single-family community, tail or a Planned Unit Development around some natural features and amenities and it meets with approval with everybody, I don't know what problem that can create. I recommend to you that you would -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: That's mixed use, though, isn't it? OFFICIAL (I)URT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 C- C 173 MR. DGANE: No, it would not be mixed use. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: With a golf course and -- MR. D{3ANE{ No, because the definition of mixed use says you have to have two residential districts or residential, commercial or industrial. And we've also increased the minimum lot size from five to ten acres and I agree with Mr. Fernandez that spoke earlier that I don't feel that there's a compelling need to do that, so I would suggest that you not accept the staff changes and accept the committee side sheet, which is on your third page. I have a couple other little issues I want to discuss, but I'm sure Mr. Baglnski would like to rebut this, mine and Mr. Anderson's comments. MR. BAd]INSKI: Well, I think that the differences in opinion are quite obvious. One of the things that we attempted by placing that language in specifically was to account for what we perceive to be a problem or abuse of a PUD and I think the board since they've sat on them on n~erous occasions will identify with the fact that you have multiple or not multiple but numerous single, small PUD's that come in that are nothing more than variance OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 17 ¢ c c. 174 requests in the form of a PUD. You have them for single buildings. You have them for single commercial building that would not normally be allowed or those standards in the typical district. You have them for churches. You have them for a number of things. Single use. And again, very frankly, from the point of the staff it's basically nothing. It's nothing unique. It's nothing innovative. All it is is a variance request. MS. MacKIE: Pam MacKie, again. I just have a question about that. I have a client with a piece of property that's 70 acres. It's currently zoned A-2. It's in the Urban Fringe Area. The A-2 density is only one unit per five acres, but in the Future Land Use Element under Urban Fringe it says if you re-zone to PUD, the density is one and a half units per acre. But there are no other uses. I'm not in an Activity Center. I'm not in an industrial zone. I don't have any other permitted uses under the Comp Plan. So, if we go to a requirement for a PUD to be mixed use, how do I ever get my one and a half units per acre OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 175 that's allowed under the Comp Plan? Because I can't come to you asking for a PUD. I only have one permitted use in that Future Land Use designation. MR. MERRILL~ Commissioners, I just was talking with staff and one of the issues that we could -- or one way that we could resolve this issue in a compromised position would be to require PUD's to be either mixed use or in the Urban Fringe Area and we could add that language or Urban Fringe and that may resolve the problems that both Bob Duane and the other speakers mentioned. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: there. Area? MR. DUANE ~ I'm sorry. MR. OLLIFF~ A lot of head shaking out What's the boundary of the Urban Fringe Is that just west of 41 or 9517 951. COMMISSIONER VOLPE density issue, doesn't MS. CACCH IONE: 951. MR. DUANE~ Yeah, that would be acceptable. So that really becomes a I mean, I think Miss MacKie really hits on it, and you'~'e got one unit per five acres. And that -- does it automatically happen that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 18 176 they get 1.5 per acre? It doesn't? Okay. MS. CAWLEY~ May I ask a question? Barbara Cawley, and it's on this issue and I just am trying to under -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE.' Are you one of the eight registered speakers? MS. CA~LEY~ Yes, I am. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Okay. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Just a moment, please. I think we'd better wait until Mr. Olliff calls them forward. I mean, this hodgepodge is no good at all. We'll never get done in that case. MS. CAWLEYz I think that while we' re on this issue it probably would be helpful to have everyone talk instead of me in ten minutes come up and talk about that. COMMISSIONER HASSEz I think we should listen to what Mr. Olliff says and sign up if you want to talk. MS. C~LEY~ Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I think she's told us that she has signed up. COMMISSIONER HASSE: COMMISSIONER VOLPE: did sign up. Huh? ? think she's told us that she OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 C' ¢- 177 C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: COMMISSIONER HASSE: MS. CAWLEY: MR. DUANE: almost finished. And she has a question. But she hasn't been called. I have not been called. And I'm not relinquishing my mike. Thank you. I made my case on PUD's and I can live with Mr. Merrill's language. I can't speak for anyone else. There is another fundamental change proposed tonight in the way that we do zoning in this county and it is on the yellow sheet 2.7.2.5.3. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: Forget about that. MR. ~3 ANE .. What number is that? It is page 2-178. And maybe this is a better issue to come back at our next hearing because it's complicated, but generally the language that's proposed says that in any zoning district that comes before you, we' re not talking about PUD's, that you can place limitations on the uses in those districts, in the h~ight, any of the development standards including placing limitations on the time of that zoning. And as you all are aware and sat through many zoning hearings, the presumption has always been if OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 178 you don't come with a PUD, you can rely on the standards that are in the zoning ordinance in the district that you apply f or. Today my concern is that we may now be going over a list of permitted uses, deciding which standards are or are not appropriate within that district. And frankly, if the zoning -- that district's not appropriate, I think it should be denied or it should come before you in the form of a PUD where the standard can be tailored to that individual development rather than leaving any zoning district that comes before you C-l, C-2, RSF-3, whatever it may be to a discussion of the development standards and the specific uses. The argument or the distinction I'm making is an esoteric one, but it's nevertheless a fundamental, different way of going about how we've done doing zoning and I would like the commission to consider not including language like this unless it's coupled with a development agreement. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: this? CCPC, though, was recommending MR. DUANE~ Frankly, I never -- I was out of town OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 18 179 at the last CCPC meeting. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Staff, is the CCPC r ec~mmending this? MiR. BAGINSKI: Yes. COMMISSION..-R VOLPE: Is there disagreement between the cc~_~_mittee and the staff on this issue? MR. BAGINSKI ~ No. MR. DG~uNE: There was when it was discussed with the c___~-_ ittee and we thought it went away and it's since come back. MR. MBRRILL~ What was the issue? MR. DUANE~ ~e issue -- MR. MERRILL: This has been the same language from the beginning. MR. DUANE~ This language allows any zoning district to change the uses. The development standards are placed time limits on the zoning. MR. MERRILL~ It doesn't allow you to change the uses. It allows you to lzmit some uses if you don't want a gas station-- MR. DUANE~ Right. In any zoning district. MR. ~[ERRILL~ But the prin~ry purpose of it is OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c 180 because you have a performance based Comprehensive Plan and you have euclidean zoning, they don't mesh together unless you're allowed to condition them. If we were to eliminate this language, everyone would be entitled to the maximum density under the Comp Plan, which is not-- at least my last understanding from the board and the Planning Commission, my understanding was they did not want to just automatically give the maximum density permissible, they wanted to say, Well, you qualify for 18 units per acre but we feel that you should only have 12 because everyone around you is at 12 units per acre. That's what this language would allow. MR. DUANE: Mr. Merrill, that language is in the plan today because it says these are maximum densities permitted by the plan. My concern is that this provision may be abused. We may go through a list of 45 uses, decide do we want this one, yes, this one, no. You know, we granted a setback of 35 feet last week to someone on 951, now we want you to have a 35-foot setback. Then there becomes no reliance on the standards in that district. I think that's fine if you' re a Planned Unit OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 19 181 Development. You expect to negotiate development standards in that zoning district. No~ we' re opening up all the zoning districts, all the uses and all of the standards to what could be a negotiated public hearing process. I would encourage the board not to do that. I hope I made myself clear. It's a complicated issue. M~. MERRILL: A~in, this language has been in this code from the ver~ start of this draft back in September. I believe this is the first time anything's come up on this issue. But nonetheless, this is something that is used in other counties. Sarasota County uses it. Several other counties as well. Any provision, I -- I would guess that any provision in this code could be abused if, you kno~, if the people Just-- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I think Mr. Duane was suggesting it could be abused ~y us. That's what's he was suggesting was abused by us. MR. ME~tRILL: Well, quite honestly, it could be abused either way. But nonetheless, the point is that zoning -- PUD is zoning. it's the same thing as zoning. There's no difference other than it's conditional zoning. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 182 This is allowing you rather than to go through the whole PUD process on every project and have a master plan on every project, it allows you to use your existing euclidean zoning districts and attach conditions to that so that if someone -- if it was appropriate to limit the density from -- although they qualify for 18, to limit it to 16 or whatever the number is, then you could do that through this process. If you don't have this language in here, you won't be able to do that. It may be appropriate also to limit some of the uses. You certainly -- the law will not allow you to limit it to only one use, but you certainly -- it may be desirable for compatibility purposes to limit some of the uses in a district. And again, this allows you to do that. Yes, it could be abused. It could be abused on both sides. But I don't think that we can -- we can draft the language, but we can't necessarily implement it and enforce it as well. MR. DUANE: Commissioners. No pro.~lem zoning it to density, No problems at all. We will make the zoning process more complicated. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c 183 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, I think-- I'm persuaded. There's no disagreement between the staff and the committee and I think it came up specifically with Imperial and exactly what had happened there where it wasn't a PUD and there was some compatibility issues beyond the question of density, so I can see it would be worthwhile under certain circumstances as long it's not abused. MR. OLLIFF~ Next speaker is Bill Hoover. MR. HOOVERz I'm on page 2-50 that Bruce Anderson talked about and Bob Duane. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Planned Unit Development? MR. HOGVERz Well, yes. And -- About the mixed uses in a If we go down to Item 5, and I talked to Barbara Cacchione on this and Ken Baginski and we've agreed to some language. What it says, we can't waive--we can't waive these requirements. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Hold on just a second. MR. HOOVER: We can't modify or have any flexibility in the requirements for a PUD over conventional zoning districts unless you meet all five OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 184 criteria below. And the fifth criteria doesn't apply hardly at all if you read the second line there. What this says is that the development employs techniques featuring amenities and excellence in the form of variations in citing, mixed land uses and/or varied dwelling types, as well as adaption to and conservation of the topography and other natural characteristics of the land involved. Ken and I and Barbara discussed some language on this, and what we've agreed upon was exceptions to the variations in citing, mixed land uses and/or varied dwelling types may be granted on PUD infill developments. And I think we may have to add that portion in there about the location of the Urban Fringe Area. MR. BAGINSKI: Yeah. Bill did discuss that with me and I felt based on the fact that we have provided definitions of the infill develo~m~ent, particularly for the PUD, and based on the fact that we're talking about infill and it's generally thought to be sandwiched inbetween existing developments of a certain nature and variety and therefore it may be necessary and logical to provide those variations that we've just talked about. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 19 185 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: up some language -- MR. BAGINSKI ~ MR. OLLIFF ~ Gary Beardsl ey. MR. BEARDSLEY: So the staff's going to work Yes, sir. I have no problem. Last speaker I've got on Article II is For the record, my name is Gary Beardsley, a resident of the county. I happened to look back on -- I used to live in Dade County. I couldn't afford land over there, and I happened to be fortunate enough to work over here since probably 1970's, did work on the Golden Gate redevelopment study, did work on environmental projects all over here in a company in Dade County and I said, Wow, this is a great place. I'd like to live here. And then back in about '82 when I lived in Golden Gate Estates, 15th Avenue Southwest, right about the old airport, I made the mistake of going to the Civic Center and speaking about water problems and that was a big venture for me to get inv,~lved civically. Well, ever since I've been doing it. And sometimes I think that if you're on a lot of cc~mittees, you see opportunities, not issues. And I see OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 2O 186 a lot of people talking about issues here instead of opportunities. And I'm going to try to be brief and I've got comments I think as you said on every single division here except for the definitions, and there's a lot of definitions missing, so I could speak on Division.VI. I'll try to hit some of the high points of some of my concerns and where I see opportunities. Again, these are ordinances that are very important. I'm going to ramble a little bit here. Remember, people take raw pieces of land and they see an investment opportunity, a speculation, and I heard people say that we still sell Florida by the gallon. I'm an environmental consultant and I've had realtors tell me don't tell me about the environmental sensitivities on this land because I want to get my c~mmission. That happens daily. It's not hundreds of years ago or ten years ago. It's right today that happens. So I think we have to all get together in our spaceship and fast forward, whatever we want to do, down 60 years and look at it and I hope these commissioners stay awake. I see some nodding off here. You know, I've OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 187 been here as long a£ everybody else and I don't want to be negative, but I think it's an important issue. We need to all fast forward 60 years or 50 years and we need to all get out of our little spaceship and we need to look around and say, Hey, is this what we wanted? Is this what we envisioned? I know there's going to be differences. Some people are going to say this is great. Some people are going to say this is terrible. But I think you as commissioners have to look at the comprehensive land plan as bad as it is and it won awards and I said, Wow, are we in trouble. And this is the vision of the future that those people and those cc~umissioners that were up where you are put in place. It needs to be changed. It needs to be corrected. That's why you can change it twice a year. But if you respond to all the interest group that says, Whoa, this is going to cost more money and whoa, this is taking land -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Beardsley, this is a philosophical discussion. here. MR. BEARDSLEY: I'm getting into very specifics I'm setting the stage because I'm very frus -- OFFICIAL OOURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 2O c 188 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Not that I'm not interested in philosophical discussions, but I think we've got a bunch of papers here with some real specifics and if you've got a specific, that's fine. MR. BEARDSLEY: What I-- I should apologize. What I'm try -- what I'm going to do is I'm going to be very specific and send to you reco~unendations, language exactly scratch this out, put this in. Rather than go through this whole document and bore everybody here, and, you know, make my wife upset. She wonders why I'm here. I'm trying to set a philosophical stage and try to give you some insight as to where you need to be going. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Why don't you set it. MR. BEARDSLEY: I'm setting it. I think you have an opportunity. You've been elected to sit up here, and I think you need to take this little exercise to go into the future. Don't respond to these groups that are up screaming at you on one s=.de and screaming at you at the other. Sit down and say, What's our vision? What is the quality of life? And it's not Gary Beardsley's vision. I'm talking about the Nezbit (phonetic) study. I'm OFFICIA~ COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 1 189 talking about the Rudat (phonetic) study. They all said that we have a lack of vision. Now, you can accept that or not accept it. That we're all trying to have some good quality of life here, okay, and there's a lot of issues that come into play in that quality of life. This Unified Land Development Code is kind of our way of addressing some of these issues. And we can nitpick it. We can say, Oh, wow, we don't want trees ten feet tall, we want them seven feet tall. And we can water it down. You have an opportunity here to be statesmen, not politicians. I mean, try to -- I know you're politicians, you want to be re-elected, but remember that you are in place right now, and you have been elected and try to look and say what's the best for Collier County, not what's the best for me as a commissioner and my constituents, always. be statesmen about it. specific -- You know, be democra -- you know, And I'm going to follow up with COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: You know, it's kind of interesting. If we agree with you we're statesmen and if we don't agree with you we're politicians. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 190 MR. BEARDSLEY: No. No. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, Gary, you've been waxing philosophical and I will for just 30 seconds. That Just really bothers me to hear you say that. MR. BEARDSLEYz Okay. Now, let me continue'.on with that, okay? I'm saying that one, we have not had involvement as the comprehensive land plan was envisioned, and that was -- and they said, Come down here, have a vision of the future, set the development standards, the criteria that you want to reach that goal. we didn't do that. We did minimum requirements because we were under the gun. You now have an opportunity to put some things in place that really get us down to that picture of the future. That's what I'm asking. And I'm going to follow up with definite statements in this. COMMISSIONER VOLPE~ Mr. Beardsley, have you shared those comments with our staff? Just so-- I mean, I'd like to think others have shared comments. That's a yes or no an~er. MR. BEARDSLEY= I'll answer the question. When the unified Land Development Code Committee was set up, two OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 191 years late, I was asked to meet every Sunday night and go over all these proposed land use regulations, and I did that. And I formulated language. I looked at both pros and cons and it was strictly looking at mostly at environmental issues, but it's hard not to look at enviror~nental issues when you talk about PUD's and, you know, what kind of information do you need to take a raw piece of land to get it to some kind of a development. So I've been involved in this. It's not like I'm last minute looking at this. not -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: SO I've talked with staff. I've And surely in that process some of your suggestions have been incorporated into-- MR. BEARDSLEY: A lot of them, but not enough in my I'm always going to be pushing you, Commissioners. And view. I'm always pushing you past where you want to be. you'll be back here -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I thought you were suggesting you were being ignored ar.d I didn't want that to happen. MR. BEARDSLEY.. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it. MR. OLLIFF: I have one additional speaker on Article II, Barbara Cawley. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 192 COMMISSIONER HASSE: See, you finally made it. MS. CANLEY~ For the record, Barbara Cawley. Thank you very much. I have a couple of questions that haven't been brought up tonight on Article II. The first one deals with lot coverages. We've got statements in throughout the code in various stages dealing with in our residential -- excuse me, in our commercial districts and in our residential districts dealing with lot coverages and also with floor area ratios that have not been mentioned tonight. There's a little asterisk located on the document that basically doesn't tell us anything about whether we're going to use them or not. And I guess I just have some questions about where we're headed with both of those issues. We need to get some kind of resolution on them before the board covers and finishes this code, so -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Are these open issues then as far as the staff is concerned? In case anyone hasn't realized, the air conditioner has shut off. Conservation program here just in case OFFICIAL OOURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 C- 193 anyone's stifled. C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: I thought I was having hot flashes. All right, Ken. MR. BAGINSKI: We're talking about lot coverage. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: CHAIRMAN GOODN IGHT: Yes. And floor area ratio. MR. BA~INSKI~ I think that we and the cc~mittee began going in that direction and I think it still has some validity to it but due to the other demands in the code, other things that we've got involved with and particularly the landscaping codes and PUD sections, et cetera, that we have really not been able to give that full consideration. Chances are in your final draft those will probably be taken out and we will probably sometime in the future come back when we've had ample time to prepare and make a little more detailed recommendations to the board in the form of an amendment. MS. CA~LEY: So th,.~ will be deleted. That's -- I think that's a good idea b~cause I think there's still a lot of issues and questions on that. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 194 The other issue about Section II deals with that page 2-50 on mixed use PUD's, the one that I got up a few moments ago to ask a question about. Really it's just a question, and this deals with the Golden Gate, C{xnmissioner Hasse, Master Plan. It's my understanding that in Activity Centers in Golden Gate they require a PUD to occur and a lot of those lots in Golden Gate are very small and it's going to be very difficult to do a mixed use project on those small Golden Gate Activity Center lots. We have one right now that's a gas station, and I'm trying to understand how we can require them to be mixed use in terms of PUD's and maybe Mr. Merrill has an answer for me. MR. MERRILL I don't know the answer to your question with regard to Golden Gate. I'm not familiar -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Do you have a specific Activity Center in Golden Gate that you're talking about? MS. CA~LEY: All Activity Centers under the Golden Gate Comp Plan require ~]D's in their Activity Centers, in the Activity Centers in Golden Gate. They require all projects inside the Activity Centers to be PUD's. And if OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 195 we are now going to have to make those PUD's mixed use, it's going to be very difficult to do that in Golden Gate where you have small lots, existing small lots unless you're going to require consolidation of so~e kind. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, we've got minimum requirement of five acres. MS. CAWLEY: Well, that doesn't fit also because we actually have existing lots and Activity Centers in Golden Gate that don't -- that aren't five acres. They're very small, one point something acres -- MS. CACC~IONE: Let me respond. I think what we could do is the point she's bringing up has to do with the downtown co~mercial district that is not in an Activity Center. We've already taken care of Activity Centers. That may be something we need to look at and we'll come back to you the next time with some language that may be added to the two other areas that we discussed already today. MS. CAWLEY: That would be helpful. COMMISSIONER VOLPE-: But the PUD that you're talking about is along Gulden Gate Parkway and there's a minimum acreage of two and a half acres. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 C~ C 196 MS. CACC~ IONE ~ Right. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: And that's because they didn't -- the people who worked so hard on the Golden Gate Master Plan didn't want to have all these little lots developed with all these different commercial. uses. MS. CAWLEY~ It's my understanding that it's not in that area, Cc~missioner. It's my understanding it's in an Activity Center in Golden Gate. COMMISSIONER HASSE: Where is it, in the Estates? MS. CAWLEY: I'm not working on it in my office. It's one that I'm familiar with that we are doing in our office. It's going to be a small project that's on an existing lot in Golden Gate, and I will find out for you, Commissioner, but I don't have-- COMMISSIONER HASSE~ In an Activity Center, is that what you said? MS. CAWLEY~ That's correct. COMMISSIONER HASSE: I don't know where it would be then. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT~ Is that all, Barbara? MS. CA~LEY: I have o,~e other item, and I'd appreciate it if I could go ahead and have this heard OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c 197 It's in Article VI, though, under right now. definitions. C~ AIRMAN GOODN IGHT: No. MS. CAWLEY: I tried. C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Is there somebody else? MR. OLLIFF: That's all your -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: John, you got ten minutes and then I'm recessing and we're going to continue this on Tuesday afternoon after the commissioner's meeting. MR. MAD~EWSKI.' I hope you don't have to do that. For the record, John Madajewski, Project Review Services Manager. In your packet tonight you received a number of blue staff side sheets labeled CCPC directed. These sheets have been worked out by staff with the ad hoc committee. Article III has no disputed side sheets and no disputed issues that I can bring to you tonight other than we feel that it is in very good shape. There is one point that I promised several of the attorneys in town as it relates to the definition of subdivision. The word 'lease' appears in that definition. There was supposed to be a side sheet, there OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 c' c c 198 is none, so we promise that that will be out by next week. The term "lease" will not be in the term definition. Other than that, unless there is some speakers for Article III, I conclude my presentation. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT.. Is there any speakers for Article III? MR. OLLIFF: None. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Mr. Morton, do you have something you want to say? MR. MORTON: Yeah. I just have one comment on Article III. Mark Morton, for the record. Under 3.8.4 on the submission and review of the EIS, we had talked about the experience that a person had to have was going to be three years is what was originally proposed and then it jumped to five years. Now, I've had some discussions with staff that some more discussions about it that this potentially could hurt people from ever getting any experience because someone with three years today would never be hired to be able to get another year's experience because he doesn't have five years experience. So they agreed that they also thought that five years was excessive and were OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 199 agreeable to go back to three years. MR. MADAJEWSKI: That was some direction from the Planning Commission as it related to the experience in lieu of education. three, four, five. board. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: And it's kind of middle of the road I think whatever the pleasure of the So are you suggesting that three years -- this gentleman is saying three years is what they prefer. Are you still saying five years? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Planning C~mmission had recommended five after hearing the argument which came from Commissioner Link. He thought a little more experience with two being in Florida would be better. The substitute staff had presented and proposed three years. I would not have an objection to it if you decided to stay with three. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: MR. MADAJEWSKI ~ Yes. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: So there's an educational requirement or three years of experience? MR. MADAJEWSKI: Three years and two years specifically in the State of Florida. Is that in lieu of education? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 200 COMMISSIONER VOLPE: You're saying someone cannot meet the educational requirement is relying upon experience and that -- you're saying that three years is better than five years? MR. MORTON: Yeah. l'm only saying because .if you think about it, there's a lot of people out there that are going to have -- three years experience is a lot of exper ience. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: What are the educational requirements, though? MR. MORTON: Bachelor's degree. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: A bachelor's degree. MR. MADAJ EWS K I z biological sciences. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Bachelor's or higher in one of the All right. I could do it if I just had a job and did it for five years or three years. MR. MORTON: If you had three years experience in biclogy and eagles or whatever it is, you could do an EIS. Again, the reason I said that, you know, the difference between the three and the five-- OFFICIAL C~URT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 term. that. 201 COMMISSIONER VOLPE.' I just -- I have a four year I'm Just checking on it. MR. ~ORTON~ That is the only thing we have on CHAIRMAN GOODN IGHT: MR. MADAJEWSKI ~ No, ma' am. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT~ All right. we finished up Article II? MR. OLLIFF: Yes, ma'am. Anything else, John? We've got -- have CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: We've now finished Article III and we've got Article IV through VI. MR. MADAJEWSKI: I had one -- I mentioned the item in Article VI, the definition, taking out the word "lease" in subdivision. Just to make sure we' re clear, we are then going to use three years in lieu of five years on the specific point Mr. Morton brought up. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. the audience that's here to speak on the rest of the Articles? (No response. ) CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: All right. Is there anyone in OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 3 CD o,-' C. C 202 MR. OLLIFF: Mrs. Chairman, after we ended up with everything, I ended up with one registered speaker left for the rest of the entire code and that was -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: And that's Barbara. All right, Barbara. I'm going to give you five minutes. MR. OLLIFF: Barbara and Tony. I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: And Tony. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Madam Chairman, it's almost a full day now that we've spent here. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Yes, sir. reconvene the workshop. MR. OLLIFF: We' re almost done. MS. C~WLEY ~ the last person at midnight that speaks before the -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: But you've got damned good looking legs. MS. CAWLEY MS. MacKIE It's either that or I apologize. It seems like I'm always Well, I've heard that before. Are you feeling harassed, Barbara? Barbara, would you please go COMMISSIONER HASSE: up in front of me? CHAIRMAN GOODN IGHT: MS. CAWLEY: .~11 right, Barbara. All right. It's late. Come on. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 C: 203 This is a definition that is coming before you because of a Comprehensive Plan amendment that was recently adopted by this board dealing with support medical facilities. We found-- the staff found I should say that there was a glitch in the existing zoning code where we have no definition for major treatment centers. Those are currently approved centers along with hospitals and there's nothing in the code that allows them to locate any particular place. What we're trying to do is we're trying to make this consistent with the Growth Management Plan amendment that was recently adopted and what it will do, it will take the language medical centers which offer primary and urgent care treatment for all types of injuries and traumas such as but not limited to the Marco Urgent Care and -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Does staff have a problem with the language? MB. CAWLEY~ I hav~ tried to talk to the staff. We've been awfully busy trying to coordinate all this. I don't know if there's been a problem at this point, but OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUN%"f, NAPLES, FL 33962 204 I'm going to pass off -- C~AIRMAN GOODN IGHT: Ken? MR. BAGINSKI: Yeah. We did have some problems and I haven't had the ability to talk with Barbara. I would be more than happy to sit down with her between n~ and see if we can work them out. C~AIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Before Wednesday? MS. CAWLEY.. I have no problem with that. COMMISSIONER SHANAHAN: We ought to be able to work out that language. MS. CAWLEY~ I think so. We tried to make a consistency issue and make sure it ~11 works. C~AIRMAN GOODN IGHT: Tony ? MR. PIRES: For the record, -- CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Your legs are not as good looking. MS. CAWLEY: I think so. MR. BEARDSLEY: No, I agree with Barbara. MR. PIRES: I'm wondering about you, Gary, if you think my legs look good. I'm concerned. For the record, -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Gary's just being a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 (o 205 statesman now. MR. PIRES: T,~ny Pires, Jr. I have a question with regards to definition of base density and I've been talking to Barbara Cacchione and I'll be getting with Bill Merrill and Barbara and I were just talking about that. To try to make it shorter, I just have a concern that the way it's drafted now if there is a change to base density, there's only a definition contained within the Future Land Use Element Density Rating System of the Comp Plan and I think we may be able to shorten that. I'll get with Bill on that. And also I Just want to make a statement that as far as other definitional issues with John and Dave Pettrow and Ken Baginski, th~t've been extremely cooperative in working on those issues and those glitches and s~me issues, particularly the leasing issue and subdivide and subdivision. CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Thank you. Thank you. All right. May I have a motion to close the public hearing? COMMISSIONER HASSE: So move. CHAIRMAN GOODN IGHT: I have a motion and a second OFFICIAL O9URT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 206 to close the public hearing. saying aye. (A chorus of "Ayes.") CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: (No response. ) All in favor signify by Opposed? CHAIRMAN GOODNIGHT: Motion carries unanimously. We will meet again next Wednesday, October the 30th at 5:05. (Proceedings concluded.) OFFICIAL OOURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 October 23, 1991 There befng no further business for th- Good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by Order of the Chair - Time: 11:25 BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF SPECIAL DiSTRiCTS U~DER ITS CONTROL approved by the Board on as presented X or aS corFected PATRICIA A.~NNE GOODNIGHT, CHAIRMAN March 3, 1992 207 STATE OF FLORIDA ) COUNTY OF COLLIER ) I, Christina J. Reynoldson, Deputy Official Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large, do hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the date and place as stated in the caption hereto on Page 1 hereof; that the foregoing computer-assisted transcription, consisting of pages numbered 3 through 206, inclusive, is a true record of my Stenograph notes taken at said proceedings. Dated this 8th day of November, 1991. ~ commission expires:- 3/20/93 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, PL 33962