CLB Minutes 04/19/2000 RApril t9, 2000
TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE
CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
Naples, Florida, April 19, 2000
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing
Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted
business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR
SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East
Naples, Florida, with the following members present:
CHAIRPERSON:
Gary Hayes
Les Dickson
Daniel Gonzalez
Richard Joslin
Bob Laird
Arthur Schoenfuss
Carol Pahl
Sara Beth White
NOT PRESENT: Robert Meister, Jr.
ALSO PRESENT:
Patrick Neale, Attorney for the Board
Thomas Palmer, Assistant County Attorney
Thomas Bartoe, License Compliance Officer
Bob Nonnenmacher, License Compliance Officer
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AGENDA
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
DATE April 19, 2000
TIME: 9:00 A.M.
ADMINISTRATION BUILDING
COURTHOUSE COMPLEX
ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF
THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A
VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT
TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED.
I. ROLL CALL
II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS:
III.APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
DATE: February 16, 2000
V. NEW BUSINESS:
2.
3.
4.
VI. OLD BUSINESS:
VII.PUBLIC HEARINGS:
VIII.REPORTS:
IX. DISCUSSION:
X. NEXT MEETING DATE:
Andrew Nichols - to re-instate, review credit report.
Kevin Gallagher- request to qualify 2"d entity.
Keith Nelson - request to qualify 2"d entity.
Roy Curry - request to re-instate license without re-testing.
May 17th, 2000
April 19, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I want to call this meeting to order,
Collier County Contractors' Licensing Board, April 19th at 9:07
a.m.
Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this board
will need a record of the proceedings pertaining thereto and,
therefore, may need to ensure that a verbatim record of the
proceedings is made, which record includes that testimony in
evidence upon which appeal is to be based.
I'd like to have roll call, starting at my right.
MR. GONZALEZ: Dan Gonzalez.
MR. LAIRD: Bob Laird.
MR. DICKSON: Les Dickson.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Gary Hayes.
MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin.
MS. PAHL: Carol Pahl.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: Arthur Schoenfuss.
MS. WHITE: Sara Beth White.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Do we have any additions or deletions
to the agenda, Mr. Bartoe?
MR. BARTOE: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, board members.
For the record, I'm Tom Bartoe, Collier County licensing
compliance officer.
I have two additions. Under new business, Michael Craft,
review credit report. And the second addition will be under
discussion of our ordinance for ordinance amendments. And staff has no other additions or deletions.
MR. DICKSON: Dickson, move to accept the agenda.
MR. JOSLIN: Second.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and second to approve
the amended agenda.
All in favor?
Opposed?
(No response.)
MR. GONZALEZ: Very well.
Approval of the minutes February 16th, our last meeting.
MR. BARTOE: Staff would like to apologize for the print. It
gets a little hard on the eyes on those minutes. But it comes
over to us by computer, and that's the only way the office staff
said they can pull it off. And I don't know about you, but it made
my eyes hurt trying to read it.
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April 19, 2000
MR. GONZALEZ: I liked the old way better.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's the new and improved computer
rendering.
MR. BARTOE: Correct.
MR. LAIRD: Thank you for the explanation. I thought it was
my eyes.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I assume we've reviewed it?
MR. LAIRD: I move for approval, Mr. Chairman.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: Second.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and second. All in
favor?
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well.
New business. Andrew Nichols. Are you here, Mr. Nichols?
MR. NICHOLS: Present.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Would you come up to the podium,
please, sir?
MR. BARTOE: Mr. Nichols' license expired September 30th,
'99. And when he come in to reinstate, I believe he is requesting
to change company name. And office staff felt that the board
should possibly review his credit.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Good morning, Mr. Nichols. For
the record, I'm going to have to ask you to be sworn in. Would
you raise your right hand.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name, sir?
MR. NICHOLS: Andrew Nichols.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And your reason for being here this
morning?
MR. NICHOLS: To reinstate my license.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Why didn't you renew it on its renewal
date?
MR. NICHOLS: I was going through a terrible divorce, and I
just -- it just -- I did not realize of what happened. And with
everything else going on, I just didn't do it.
MR. DICKSON: Mr. Nichols, I have a question for you before
we get into it. If I'm not mistaken, Carpetmax is a large national
chain, or at least they're all through Georgia?
MR. NICHOLS: That is correct, they are a national company.
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April 19, 2000
MR. DICKSON: And you're going to call yourself Carpetmax
of Naples?
MR. NICHOLS: Well, I have had a Carpetmax franchise for
about nine or 10 years. And we use Carpetmax, the parent
company. And the State of Florida has purchased about 95
percent of all the companies, and they're company-owned stores.
They have also sent a memorandum to all the independents
who own the franchises, that we need to use the Carpetmax
name. And I filed a fictitious name thing with the State of
Florida, you know, to allow me to do that.
MR. DICKSON: So you are a franchisee of Carpetmax?
MR. NICHOLS: Yes, I am. Have been for about nine years.
MR. DICKSON: Okay.
MR. JOSLIN: Is there any kind of documentation that can
verify that?
MR. NICHOLS: I mean, yeah, there's all kind of
documentation, but I don't have it with me. I wasn't asked.
MR. DICKSON: It's not really a licensing issue, but I was
curious.
MR. NICHOLS: I understand.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, this gentleman is here this
morning for review of a credit report, as you said. He is a little
over six months from expiration of his license. Do you know
what the ordinance says? I believe -- I thought it was six
months, that if you don't renew your license within six months of
expiration that you have to take the exams, et cetera, and so
forth.
MR. BARTOE: No, I know it's more than six months. I don't
have the ordinance with me. Mr. Neale?
MR. NEALE: Yeah, the ordinance specifically on a case like
this where it's -- it appears he just missed by a few months, it's
under Section 22-191 in the codified ordinance. Subsections F, G
and H apply, where under Section F, person in a situation such as
Mr. Nichols is required to make reapplication, full reapplication.
The certificate is now at this point in time considered to be
delinquent. And if he renews it by September 30th of 2000, but
after December 31 st of the previous year, he has to pay
additional late fees and so forth.
So that's the real situation, if he at this point has a
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April 19, 2000
suspended certificate, pay an additional late fee in accordance
with -- and then reapply in full, including updated credit reports
and other documentation, but does not require retesting. So
there is no retesting requirement in a situation such as this.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So all we're basically looking at is a
renew -- a review of this credit report?
MR. NEALE: Yeah, it's a licensure issue solely on the basis
of the credit report and references.
MR. DICKSON: But Mr. Neale, can I ask a question also?
MR. NEALE: Uh-huh.
MR. DICKSON: The application is for Carpetmax of Naples,
but yet every one of the documents in here is for Nichols Flooring
Gallery, Incorporated.
MR. NEALE: Well, in my packet, at least, I'm not sure if it's
in the board's packet, there is a fictitious name filing included in
there --
MR. DICKSON: Okay, I haven't seen that.
MR. NEALE.' -- which indicates that Nelson Floor Gallery,
Inc. owns the fictitious name Carpetmax of Naples. MR. DICKSON: Okay, thank you, sir.
MR. BARTOE: I believe what concerned office staff is these
civil litigations for contract indebtedness.
Mr. Nichols, have you remained open for business all this
time?
MR. NICHOLS: Yes, I have.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Are you aware of Mr. Bartoe's
concerns?
MR. NICHOLS: I don't know what contracting indebtedness
he's -- I have not seen the credit report. It was sent directly to
the --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Do you have a copy of those pages of
concern you can show him, Mr. Bartoe?
MR. NEALE: I've got them right here.
I gave him a copy, Tom.
MR. NICHOLS: May I address -- some of these are -- I don't
know how they're on here. But like Jerry Amans, Mr. Amans was
a tenant in one of my condos that I own in town. I sued Mr.
Amans and prevailed and got a judgment against Mr. Areans. I
don't know why it says that he's the plaintiff and I'm the
defendant. It was the other way around.
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April 19, 2000
Mr. Harris and I are going -- has not been to court yet. I have
sued Mr. Harris, because Mr. Harris did some work for my
company and did not do a good job. We did go out and correct
the work. That has not even been litigated yet.
I have no idea what Damex is. Because I was never-- I
never had any dealings with Damex. I have no idea who they are.
Other than that, I guess that's the only things that are on
here.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Palmer, do you got any ideas as to
why the record could be as remiss as it is?
MR. PALMER: Tom Palmer, assistant county attorney.
No, I don't. Are we looking at the same page? Because I've
got a document here that says that there's a case that was filed
on December 15th, 1999, contracted -- that is with a Harris
Custom Marble and Tile is the plaintiff. MR. NICHOLS: Yes.
MR. PALMER: Is that incorrect?
MR. NICHOLS: No, Mr. Harris has countersued me, since I've
sued Mr. Harris. I have -- my attorneys were present here in
court and they'll verify this.
MR. PALMER: All right. Then there's a case that was filed
on January 27th of this year, apparently by a plaintiff called
Design Air of Collier County.
MR. NICHOLS: Design Air of Collier County, I guess they
filed a suit against Nichols Floor Covering. They put an air
conditioner in one of my units which we have -- went to court
with them and I did pay them. I mean, that was through the
divorce. And I didn't even know that there was a $500 balance
owed to Design Air. But that has been taken care of.
They should not have filed suit against Nichols Floor
Covering, they should have filed suit against me personally. But I
mean, needless to say, it has been taken care of.
MR. PALMER: Well, it may have been filed against you
personally. And this does not say it was necessarily filed against
the corporate entity. But it -- this is out of date, apparently,
because it says that the matter has not been disposed of. So I
don't know, all we're going on is the records we have before us.
MR. NICHOLS: Okay, I have -- one of my attorneys is present
who represented me on that case, if you want to take his word
for that. I don't--
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April t9, 2000
MR. NEALE: I'd suggest the board hear from Mr. Nichols'
attorney on this, too.
MR. PALMER: Yeah, what we're concerned about is based
on the record. And we don't vouch for the record. But what we
have before us is what looks to be -- raises questions about the
credibility of this entity --
MR. NICHOLS: Well, I don't know how --
MR. PALMER: -- and we're just asking to have these matters
clarified.
MR. NICHOLS: Okay. I just built a new store on Airport
Road. I have approximately about three and a half million dollars
invested into it. So, you know, I have several employees that
work for me. We've been in business about 13, 14 years. We do
about 2,200 jobs a year. I think Mr. Bartoe will tell you he has
very few complaints ever on our company. If he does, I resolve
them, I take care of them. I try to never let, you know, that
become an issue.
MR. PALMER: We're just saying that these things raise
issues that obviously prompt questions. That's all we're driving
at here.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you, Mr. Nichols. If we could
hear from your attorney.
MR. KING: Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Kenneth
Gordon King. I'm a local attorney, and I do represent Mr. Nichols'
company in connection with all three of those lawsuits. I'm
personally familiar with all three of them.
The Amans case, as he indicates, was indeed a successful
action before Small Claims Court Judge Turner, wherein we
obtained judgment against Mr. Amans for unpaid rent. Mr. Amans
defaulted, apparently, and there is an outstanding payment due
to Nichols. But we were the prevailing plaintiff therein.
In the case involving Harris, as Mr. Nichols points out, that
was a suit brought by Mr. Harris against the company, and the
company against him. He had been given -- that is prepaid. We
prepaid Mr. Harris to do some labor in connection with several
projects for customers' homes.
He had indicated that he had supplied certain materials and
installed those materials. The customers then notified us that
that was not the case. The materials he supplied were not to the
standard that he had billed us for, so we sued to collect the
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April t 9, 2000
difference. And we had to rip up those floors and install new tile
at the level that the customer had paid for. So as a
consequence, that's the nature of that claim. That's pending. I
think we have a May 31st trial date on that one in small claims
court with Judge Turner again.
The third action is the matter of Design Air had installed -- or
no, what they had done was they had come out to install an air
conditioning unit at one of the rental properties here in town. I
think it's the Glades Condominiums. And for reasons unknown to
us -- I've spoken to Mr. Schelling, their attorney. I know Jeff very
well.
Apparently they were billing Nichols Floor Company, even
though the contract is not with Nichols at all, not with the
company. And they also sued one of the employees of Nichols
Floor Covering, Judy Carr, on the premises that well, maybe they
could hold her accountable. They were looking for a deep
pocket, I think.
We appeared at the pretrial last week, that would have been
I think last week Thursday, and the matter is now being
scheduled for trial obviously because of the fact that the
misnaming of the wrong party.
And as for the claim itself, Nichols Floor Covering was not
the owner or the contracting party in connection with that work.
There was a $500 bill, which we didn't know of. But the work
that was contracted was the Woods Real Estate Company here in
town, and they're trying to bill Nichols for the work that Woods
had ordered. So we referred them to the Wood Realty to either
obtain payment or otherwise we'll cover that bill. But that was
the status of that claim. Again, that's in small claims.
MR. DICKSON: Mr. Chairman, it sounds like what we're
looking at is things that are an everyday part of doing business.
I'm sure we all have some of those.
I move that the application be approved.
MR. GONZALEZ: And I second that.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any
other discussion before we call a vote?
Very well. All in favor?
Opposed?
(No response.}
CHAIRMAN HAYES: It's all over with.
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April 19, 2000
MR. GONZALEZ: Go to work.
MR. NICHOLS: I thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, sir.
MR. BARTOE: Mr. Nichols, you can come into the office
tomorrow to complete everything. I won't have the -- your folder
back to the office until later today.
MR. NICHOLS: I appreciate it, Mr. Bartoe, thank you. Thank
you for working with me.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Kevin Gallagher, are you present, sir?
MR. GALLAGHER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Would you come up to the podium,
please.
Good morning, sir. I'm going to need to have you sworn in, if
you'd raise your right hand. (Speaker duly sworn.}
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name, sir?
MR. GALLAGHER: Kevin Gallagher.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Gallagher, what's your reason for
being here this morning?
MR. GALLAGHER: I'm trying to apply for a license for a
second company. Tile license. To qualify a second company.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Why would you want to do that?
MR. GALLAGHER: Well, I work for Spraggins Flooring, which
is the company I'm trying to qualify and hold the license for. And
I also have my wife's company, which I work for, Noelee Tile.
And more or less I sub -- Noelee Tile subs work from Spraggins
Flooring. So I want to keep my existing license with my wife's
company and qualify Spraggins Flooring.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So you're currently qualifying Spraggins
Flooring?
MR. GALLAGHER: Right now I'm qualifying Noelee Tile.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Which is your company?
MR. GALLAGHER: My wife's company, yeah.
MR. DICKSON: And Scarsdale Carpet and Tile is no longer in
the picture?
MR. GALLAGHER: No. I worked for them 15 years ago.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: What's your affiliation with Spraggins?
MR. GALLAGHER: At this point I'm operations manager.
MS. WHITE: I have a question. On Page 3 of this
application, the Contractors' Licensing Board application, it asks
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April 19, 2000
if you'd ever had a bankruptcy, and it says no. And then on the
credit report, it says Chapter 7 bankruptcy, discharged.
MR. GALLAGHER: No, I have a bankruptcy.
MR. GONZALEZ: Is that personal?
MR. GALLAGHER: It should be--yeah, personal.
MS. WHITE: Why does it say no on Page 37
MR. GALLAGHER: It should say yes. That may be my
mistake, but '-
MS. WHITE: That was it.
MR. GALLAGHER: I wasn't trying to hide anything.
MR. NEALE: Just one note on the bankruptcy issue, which
we haven't seen in a little bit. Federal law prohibits bankruptcy
to be considered as a negative credit aspect in the consideration
of credits. It's considered to be a complete discharge and wiped
out all the past, so '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that's correct in relationship to a
credit. However, the application for license, that wouldn't
appear there in line item number eight if it was illegal for us to
question it.
MR. NEALE: Well, you may ask the question, but the board
may not consider past or present bankruptcy of an applicant for
certification as a contractor.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Then why is it on the application?
MR. NEALE: You've got to ask the people that make up the
applications. I mean, it is something that can be asked, but it
may not be something that's considered, so -- I realize that's a
contradiction, but that's federal law.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: When was the bankruptcy discharged?
MR. GALLAGHER: I believe in like 1991.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: 1991.
MR. GALLAGHER: Maybe early '92. I'm not sure.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. So these incidents on the Falcon
Credit Report from '96 through '99 aren't related to that
bankruptcy?
MR. GALLAGHER: No, they wouldn't be.
MS. WHITE: It says it was discharged 1/93.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Are you familiar with your credit report?
Have you seen it?
MR. GALLAGHER: I've got the credit report in front of me,
yes.
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April 19, 2000
MR. DICKSON: Well, we can't consider it, Mr. Neale. I'm
trying to find when the bankruptcy was so I can go forward from
that date.
MS. WHITE: It was January, '93.
MR. DICKSON: January, '93.
MS. WHITE: Uh-huh. It's on the first page of the Falcon
Credit Report.
MR. DICKSON: Okay. So everything after that point, which
is -- on the first page here I've got four collections.
MR. NEALE: You can now consider--you can consider
anything from the bankruptcy going forward.
MR. DICKSON: He had seven collections after January of
'93. Place for collection. Are you seeing the same thing I'm
looking at, Mr. Gallagher?
MR. GONZALEZ: And on the first page it also shows a
foreclosure.
MR. DICKSON: Since January of '93.
MR. GONZALEZ: In April of '97.
Is that a home?
MR. GALLAGHER: Yeah. I mean, that was in '9 -- '98. I was
divorced. And in '96 I left the home and she was given the
house, and she let it go into foreclosure. She let the Pontiac
Transport be repossessed.
MR. GONZALEZ: In the settlement of the divorce, she got
the home and then did not '-
MR. GALLAGHER: The home's not -- it was in a -- I guess
after I left the house they had hearings, and, you know, she got
the primary residence. But the vehicle's in the marital
settlement agreement.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: How long have you had a license?
MR. GALLAGHER: I just got it in May in Collier County. I
believe in May.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So you '-
MR. GALLAGHER: I've had a license in Broward County,
Palm Beach County and Martin County in the early Nineties.
MR. DICKSON: Can I throw something at you?
MR. GALLAGHER: Okay.
MR. DICKSON: Let me show you my dilemma right now.
We've got a credit report that's pretty bad.
MR. GALLAGHER: Oh, I know.
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April t9, 2000
MR. DICKSON: Okay. We got -- which means your present
company, you're probably struggling to keep that above water.
Now you want to qualify a company for three people that we
don't have any control over, don't know who they are, none of
them have a license, and you don't have any control over that
company.
MR. GALLAGHER: I know Spraggins Flooring has held a
license in Collier County. I mean, had a license with another
qualifier. And they've been operating in '-
MR. DICKSON: But I don't see that you're a director or
anything of that nature.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: My concern, you said that you've been
licensed in Collier County since May of 19997
MR. GALLAGHER: I believe this year or '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: At the point of application, in May of
1999, wouldn't he had to have rendered a credit report at that
point in time to be issued a license?
MR. BARTOE: He should have.
MR. GALLAGHER: Yes, I did.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Then this credit report, most of the
records on this credit report were of problems during '99 or prior
to '99. They should have appeared on that credit report. I'm
questioning as to why he was issued a license in May, little lone
qualifying as second agent today.
Is there some crack in the system that we didn't review
this? I mean, if he had applied for a license in May with a credit
report like this, shouldn't he have appeared on our agenda for
review?
MR. NEALE: Well, you know, the standard for financial
responsibility is the ability to safeguard that the public will not
sustain economic loss resulting from the contractor's inability to
pay his lawful contractual obligations. That's the standard.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I realize that. But in times past,
Mr. Bartoe, haven't we sat here and reviewed credit reports for
license applications the first time because of the questions,
perhaps, that you guys might have had? MR. BARTOE: Correct.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah. So irregardless of what the
specifics are, I mean, I'm surprised that in May we didn't receive
this gentleman on our agenda for review at that point.
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April 19~ 2000
MR. BARTOE: I can't tell you why that didn't happen.
MR. DICKSON: Now you see the full scope of our dilemma.
MR. GALLAGHER: Nor I mean~ a lot of this is, you know~
from the ex-wife. I mean~ I had no control over the phone bills.
You know, I turned them off, she turned them back on. I mean~
she put her mobile phone in my name.
MR. JOSLIN: This was all after the divorce was final?
MR. GALLAGHER: This was during the process. When I left
the house, I paid up the phone billy called the phone company~
told them I'm not living in the house~ you need to switch the
name over to Michelle Gallagher. Well~ I don't know what
happened at that point. Next thing I know~ on my credit report
I've got~ you know~ an outstanding bill with Bell South~ or GTE.
MR. JOSLIN: This was not a national divorce decree~ then~
where the judge said that you were separated between the two
of you. This was like a separation between you and your wife.
MR. GALLAGHER: Yeah, we were -- well~ no. I mean~ there's
papers where I had to leave -- I mean~ she was given the primary
residence of the house. I mean~ the divorce went on for like two
and a half years.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're divorced from her now?
MR. GALLAGHER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And now you're going to qualify her
company?
MR. GALLAGHER: Nor this is my current wife.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Oh, you got a new one.
MR. GALLAGHER: Yeah. Can I do that?
MS. WHITE: I've got a question about the qualifier in Lee
County, on Spraggins. Who is Mark Johnson?
MR. GALLAGHER: I don't know Mark Johnson. I mean~ he's
no longer with Spraggins Flooring.
MS. WHITE: But the occupational license goes through
September of 2000.
MR. GALLAGHER: We don't understand that, because Rod
Fair was qualifying the company for the last -- I believe at least
for the last year and a half, two years. I don't know if they didn't
take it from the licensing board to the -- you know~ for the
occupational license, or--
MS. WHITE: Is he still qualifier in Lee County?
MR. GALLAGHER: No, Rod Fair is.
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April 19, 2000
MR. DICKSON: Why doesn't any of the Spraggins get a
license and qualify their company? You say they've been in
business for years.
MR. GALLAGHER: Well, their main store is in Orlando. I
mean, like the principal officers of the company are Orlando's.
That's their corporate branch.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, Mr. Gallagher says he's held
a license in other counties in Florida for a while. Could it be that
a reciprocal license was granted and the normal chain of
occurrences --
MR. BARTOE: Yes~ that's possible.
MR. GALLAGHER: No.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: No?
MR. GALLAGHER: No. Because those were -- those licenses
were not activated. I mean, they were active, and then when I
left Broward County~ I put them in inactive. And then I had to
come back, because it was so many years~ I had to retake the
test in Collier County.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So when you got your license in May~
you had to take an examination?
MR. GALLAGHER: Yes. I took the exam~ I think the
November prior.
MR. BARTOE: He had a November 7th, '98 test score on tile
and marble of 84 percent; business and law~ 88 percent.
MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Gallagher~ are you going to be
financially responsible for this company?
MR. GALLAGHER: Not financially~ no. I mean~ they're --
MR. NONNENMACHER: Do you have someone here with you
today with an application filled out to be the financially
responsible officer for the company?
MR. NEALE: Well, to make a point~ the qualifying agent has
to be legally responsible for the business~ be responsible for all
acts of the business. It has to be -- have the authority to sign the
checks and so forth. The credit report to look to on this
business~ because of our ordinance and the state statute, is the
credit report really for Spraggins Flooring Center~ not Mr.
Gallagher's report.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: If they have a financially responsible
officer on record --
MR. NEALE: No~ doesn't require one. Financially
Page t4
April 19, 2000
responsible officer is only necessary if he is not going to be the
one that signs the checks and so forth and so on, okay?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. But it stands to reason then that
if he is going to be the financially responsible officer, that his
personal credit report should come into play.
MR. NEALE: No, because the -- if the applicant proposes to
engage in contracting as a partnership, corporation, business
trust or other legal entity, they engage in contracting as a
business, as a corporation --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Then why do we review credit reports
for individuals?
MR. NEALE: Because typically what we're looking at are
new businesses, okay? We're typically looking at a corporation
that just got formed, and that's the one that's being qualified for
the secondary qualifier.
In the instance of a contracting business, the credit report --
if the business has been in existence for more than one year, the
credit report is to be also -- is to be the credit report of the
nationally recognized credit agency.
There is a credit report in here from Spraggins Floor
Company, Spraggins Flooring Center, now Spraggins Flooring.
Yes, he has to be -- he has to understand and be legally qualified
to the business, including the authority to sign checks, training,
hiring, firing, active involvement.
MR. DICKSON: But he just stated that he's not --
MR. NEALE: Well, if he doesn't have that authority, then he
cannot be the qualifier.
MR. DICKSON: He has no authority. He stated he's not
going to be the financial responsible officer.
MR. NEALE: Well, you know, that's the -- the questions to be
asked for a company that's been in business for more than one
year that has its own credit report is does the -- you know, is the
company going to be able to protect the financial well-being of
the residents of Collier County. And this gentleman has to show
that he is finan -- he is the person in the case of a business
organization that is legally qualified to act for the business in all
matters connected with its contracting business, and that he has
the authority to supervise construction undertaken by such
business organization. Proof that a qualifying agent is legally
qualified to act for the business organization includes but is not
Page t5
April 19, 2000
limited to authority to sign checks, all the normal tests that this
board has always looked to.
But the credit report is typically the -- and the reason I think
that there's the confusion is, most of these that come before this
board are requests to qualify a new second entity, one that just
sort of popped full form out of the minds of someone to create a
new business. It's unusual in my memory of being here that we
have a second entity qualifier on a long-standing business. You
know, because really it's the -- this board will look to this
gentleman if there's a contracting problem. But the business is
the one that pays the bills of the business. MR. DICKSON: Right.
MR. NEALE: And the test is financial responsibility is the
ability -- as we said before, the ability to safeguard that the
public will not sustain economic loss resulting from the
contractor's inability to pay his lawful contractual obligations.
An analogous situation is you can't look at the financial -- it
would be unreasonable for this board to look at the financial
responsibility of an individual contractor for Kraft Construction,
say, because certainly the amount of construction that a Kraft
does couldn't be sustained by most individuals. You really have
to look at the financial strength of the company, not of the
person.
The kind -- qualifying contractor is still the one that could
lose his license, could get fined, and so forth. But the company
is the one reasonably that has to be looked at as the -- as the
financially responsible partner in that business. So '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: However, in this particular case, had
the, I would have thought, normal process been followed in May,
this individual would have appeared before us prior to granting
his license with objective review of his credit report. At that
point in time, we'd had the opportunity to review the credit
report in relation to granting a license the first time. Now that
that has not occurred, this individual is here with a valid license,
and based on his credit report currently, we cannot deny
qualifying even the second agent.
MR. DICKSON: Yes, we can. Because he does not meet the
qualifications to qualify for this floor company. You have to be '-
have some control of the company, financial responsibility.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Let me finish. The -- we cannot deny
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April 19, 2000
his qualifying a second entity based on his credit report. I didn't
say that we couldn't deny it on anything else. MR. DICKSON: Correct.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Everybody understand that?
MR. GONZALEZ: Because it got through the first time.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Because it got through the first time,
exactly right.
MR. NEALE: That's one issue. And the other issue is that
the credit report to really look at in the case of this business is
the credit report for Scraggins Flooring.
MR. DICKSON: Which nobody has any problem with.
MR. NEALE: Right.
MR. DICKSON: It's a major company.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right. However, now we're asking that
he go and be properly qualified to be the qualifier by taking on
financial responsibilities, and he's already shown us evidence
that he has a problem with that, personally.
MR. NEALE: Well, in the instance '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm confused.
MR. NEALE: In the instance of -- you know, we do have to
look at the qualifier's agent's contracting business, okay. And
remember that the fact that someone may have problems with
their personal finances, if there's no evidence that shows that
they have not paid debts related to the contracting business, it's
not relevant to the review of their credit.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that's correct. But we don't have
a track record. We've only got a new license since. May.
MR. GONZALEZ: Mr. Gallagher, do you want to be the
financial officer for Scraggins?
MR. GALLAGHER: Well, I can't write the checks. I mean,
they're all generated from Orlando.
MR. GONZALEZ: Do you want to be responsible for their
bills, if they were to go under or something?
MR. GALLAGHER: I mean, there -- no, I couldn't be. I mean,
could I -- if they would close the doors tomorrow and '-
MR. GONZALEZ: Because that's what you signed here in
this affidavit in the very first page of the packet.
MR. GALLAGHER: What I'm saying, this is a company that's
not -- I mean, they're going to be here for plenty of years to come.
MR. GONZALEZ: Right.
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April t9, 2000
MR. DICKSON: But do you see why we have the ordinance in
Collier County we do? We do not permit rental licenses. And
that's exactly what has taken place here, if you have no financial
responsibility.
MR. GALLAGHER: I mean, I can't write the -- okay, I
understand.
MR. DICKSON: Licenses in Collier County are not for rent.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Do you actually work full time for this
company?
MR. GALLAGHER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So you are employed by this company
full time as it is.
MR. GALLAGHER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And what is your activities there?
MR. GALLAGHER: I do the scheduling, I run the crews, and
just about everything, you know, from production to ordering to
production on.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So you do have hands-on activities with
this company?
MR. GALLAGHER: Oh, yes.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe?
MR. NONNENMACHER: Mr. Neale, I'm still a little confused
on that. Mr. Gallagher is stating that he has no financial
responsibility for this company. Aren't we required at this time
to have someone step up and say I am the financial responsible
person for this company, and that person be approved by this
board? Since he is --
MR. NEALE: Not necessarily, okay. The financial
responsible officer thing is something that I think even at the
state level, from talking to some of the folks up in Tallahassee,
it's caused a lot of confusion, in that it's not clear in its
application. Because even in our ordinance and in the statute,
the qualifying agent has to be legally qualified to act for the
business organization, but they don't specifically say that -- any
specifics as to how broad that has to be. So -- and then there is
the change in definition between a business organization and an
individual as the qualifier--
MR. NONNENMACHER: Well, then my follow-up question --
MR. NEALE: -- or as the contractor.
MR. NONNENMACHER: My follow-up question would be
Page 18
April 19, 2000
then, suppose we do have a problem where financial
responsibility comes into play. Who do we go after when that
happens? As investigators, where '-
MR. NEALE: The certificate of competency, theoretically in
a case like this, would be issued in the name of the business
organization, in the name of Spraggins Flooring, with this
gentleman, Mr. Gallagher, listed as the qualifier.
MR. NONNENMACHER: So he would be responsible then.
MR. NEALE: Spraggins would be responsible for contracting
debts, he would be responsible for anything for which he may be
responsible under our ordinance.
MR. NONNENMACHER: How do we enforce Spraggins
without a person that has been approved by the board? How do
we do that?
MR. NEALE: Spraggins, if they don't have a qualifier, you
can't enforce against them. Then they have to be prosecuted.
But if he is the qualifier, you get to Spraggins through him for
purposes of this board for enforcing against the license.
Because once again, this is a licensing board, not a civil
litigation board where people get damages for improper
contracting.
MR. DICKSON: But we had cases like that, Mr. Neale, in Fort
Myers with the air conditioner companies that were running the
boiler rooms. And we tried to go through the qualifier to the
company. The company gets rid of the qualifier, grabs a new one
and case is closed.
MR. NEALE: Unfortunately, that is the case. And, you know,
the problem with this, just like in a licensure board for a doctor
or whatever, is if -- you can go after the person that is the
licensed entity, but if it's because of the malfeasance of
someone in the organization, you really have little recourse
except through prosecution or through civil litigation.
MR. DICKSON: Yeah, but I don't have doctors qualifying
doctors that don't have a license.
MR. NEALE: Well, in some instances you do. I mean, you
may have them qualifying a clinic that has non-licensed people
working there. So it is a problem. I mean, it's a problem in who
can you get to.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think I'm going to have to go along
with what Mr. Nonnenmacher is saying, I -- on this board and as
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April t 9, 2000
legally responsible individuals in Collier County to enforce Collier
County ordinances, I have one of two individuals to look to in a
company: Either a written up, legally qualified, financially
responsible officer, or the qualifying agent himself. And if I don't
have any evidence of a legally appointed financial officer, Mr.
Neale, I'm looking to this individual in front of us as the
financially responsible officer, as says so in his qualifying
requirements. In his affidavit he said the qualified license holder
understands that in all contracting matters he will be held
strictly accountable for any and all activities involving this
license.
MR. NEALE: Any and all activities involving the license.
He's strictly responsible for that. So it is his license's
responsibility that everything done by Spraggins Flooring is done
correctly and according to the law.
MR. DICKSON: Including finances.
MR. NEALE: Well, including anything revolving contracting
finances. Now, the fact is, he -- going back again to the analogy
of a Kraft Construction or U.S. Homes or someone like that, it
can't be contemplated that they would be respon -- they would
have a single contractor that they're paying whatever they're
paying them to be liable for all of their contracting debts. And
that's why in our ordinance and in the state statute, it's specific
that when it's a business entity doing the qualifying -- doing the
contracting, not the qualifying, the contracting -- that the credit
report of the entity is the primary document that's looked to for
financial responsibility.
However, there still is a list -- there still is a requirement
that the qualifying agent's activities in contracting -- in
contracting -- be reviewed from a financial basis to show that, in
the instance such as this, more that the person was an adequate
manager of finances, as opposed to showing that they have a 10
million dollar line of credit to be able to do the kind of business
that they're doing.
MR. JOSLIN: But at this point in time, we don't know that.
We don't have any control over this man at all.
MR. NEALE: It's my opinion on this application that it's got
several flaws in it. First and foremost, we do have a credit report
on Spraggins Flooring, which needs to be reviewed by the board.
But secondly, there's nothing specific in the application that
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April 19, 2000
I can find, and maybe I'm wrong, that indicates that it meets the
primary tests that Mr. Hayes has brought up, and that has been
reviewed by the board many times before in our ordinance, that
states that the qualifying agent has to be legally qualified to act
for the business organization in all matters connected with its
contracting business.
And that agent has the authority to supervise construction
undertaken by the business. Proof that they're legally qualified
to act includes but it's not limited to -- so it can be this or other
things -- authority to sign checks, training and supervision of
employees, hiring and firing of employees, or other actions
indicating active involvement in the business organization. And
the board can look to what other things indicate active
involvement.
But the primary concern of the ordinance and the statute
are obviously to make sure that all the activities of both licensed
and unlicensed people on the job site are being supervised by
someone who is competent and who knows how to run a
contracting business.
MR. DICKSON: And the reason for the financial responsible
officer, which he doesn't meet this criteria, that's a given. Mr.
Gallagher does not meet this criteria. So what he has to do is
come up with a financially responsible officer, which I have no
problem with, because then I've got a bond, then I've got money
sitting there to where if there is a problem to get to Scroggins
(sic), they can't get rid of him and hire another one and avoid the
problem, because we've got the bond on the financial
responsible officer. And that was the entire intent of coming up
with the financially responsible officer.
So this case right here, there's no way it can be approved,
because Mr. Gallagher does not meet the requirements. The only
way it can be approved is if Scroggins (sic) comes up with the
financially responsible officer, meet the requirements for it in
Collier County, which are stringent, then it can be considered.
Am I correct?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I think I --
MR. JOSLIN: Sounds like that.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- somehow or another, that seems to
be exactly the separation that even Mr. Gallagher himself is
asking for. You know, he works for the company, he schedules
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April t9, 2000
the men, he's in direct control of the quality of the work. He just
doesn't want to be any -- responsible for any finances.
MR. GALLAGHER: Well, I can't sign the checks.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Of course, and that makes '-
MR. GALLAGHER: They come from Orlando.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And that makes perfect sense, as far as
I'm concerned. So this is a case in point of exactly the reason
that Tallahassee has brought on this financially qualified agent
format, just so that he can be exonerated from those financial
responsibilities. I've got no problem at all with that.
In that case, however, this company needs to bring forth a
financially qualified officer.
MS. WHITE: Who signs the checks?
MR. GALLAGHER: How do I do that?
MR. GONZALEZ: They have the applications.
MR. GALLAGHER: It comes from Orlando. The checks come
from Orlando.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: In fact, as far as I'm concerned at this
point in time, Mr. Gallagher, I would suggest that we put together
the financial responsible officer application forms for you and
have you submit them to Scroggins (sic) Flooring.
MR. GALLAGHER: It just so happens, he's in town today,
too.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, this may work.
MR. PALMER: Mr. Hayes, in regard to that matter, while I
thought of it, I got a request from legal services early last week
or late last week in regard to this entire matter about what are in
fact the detailed and exact qualifications of a financial
responsible officer. And I will tell you, I am having trouble
making sense of interrelating the statute with the Florida
Administrative Code, with certain forms that have been prepared
by the State of Florida, which I don't think jibe with either. And
I'm trying to get a response from these people.
It is clear, though, that a minimum bond of $50,000 is
required. Irrespective of the kind of contracting business it is,
the financial responsibly officer must have a bond of $50,000.
Now, it's not a performance bond, a general quality of work,
it's a payment bond to see to it that the public, or the people that
contract with these contracting parties, is not harmed because
the company cannot pay its material, men, suppliers, employees,
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April t9, 2000
laborers and so forth.
But we're not in the business of seeing that subcontractors,
material, men and suppliers get paid. We are interested in
whether the public is harmed; that is, the person that contracts
is harmed, because the entity is not paying the people that it's
contractually obligated to pay.
Now, we're not talking about contract disputes and we're
not talking about tort obligation, we're talking about a bill that
the company knows ought to be paid and it hasn't got the money
to pay it. And because of that, the person that hired to have their
dock built or the house built, or whatever, have the plumbing
done, is harmed because the people walked off the jobs and
these kinds of things. I'm trying to get a handle on this.
The illogic of it, and this is what the problem is: I cannot
imagine that the law would assume that the financial responsible
officer has more responsibility than the qualifier. It doesn't make
sense. If in fact the qualifier does not want to assume the
financial -- the obligations of the financial responsible officer,
then you separate the two and have the financially responsible
officer step in into those obligations that the qualifier does not
want to assume.
I don't -- otherwise, I think it's upside down and backwards
to say well, you've got to be more responsible as a financial
responsible officer in the qualifier doesn't make sense to me.
However, I must say that the data that I'm working with and the
regulations I'm working with are far from clear, and I'm trying to
make sense out of it.
MR. NEALE: I've gone through this myself a couple of years
ago. And Tom, we need to get together and talk about this,
because I fought this battle a couple of years ago trying to figure
it out. So we can put our heads together on it.
But the specifics in our ordinance, in the Collier County
ordinance, a financially responsible officer is a person other than
the primary qualifying agent; with the approval of this board,
assumes personal responsibility of all financial aspects of the
business organization.
Now, note that under the law a person doesn't have to be a
person, it can be a legal entity. It can be a corporation, policy,
whatever. So that is -- and, you know, I think this case or the
case of one of the major contractors or something is probably a
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April t 9, 2000
perfect example of where that is -- could and should and would
apply.
I think the other thing that the board brought up is that there
is the necessity to have the assignment of where the
responsibility goes and who's responsible for the organization.
The way the bond is structured -- I did a little bit of research
on that a couple of years ago, and it doesn't appear to have
changed -- the bond is structured in such a way that the
triggering mechanism for the bond typically is the finding by the
board -- in the case of the state, the state board, or in the case of
here, the local board -- of a monetary judgment against the
qualifying company or the contracting business. And then the
bond can be drawn on to pay that, if they do not pay it within a
certain period of time.
So the bond is pretty specific that if it's found to be -- if
they're found to be in violation, if this board issues an order
saying pay a $5,000 fine and restitution, the financially
responsible officer would pay the restitution out of the -- and if
not paid, then the bond would pay it.
The fine would be paid by the qualifier, no matter what.
Because the financially responsible officer only becomes
responsible for the financial aspects of the business: Unpaid
bills, contracting things that weren't done that cost the
consumer money. They're not respon -- it doesn't give them
responsibility in terms of fines that may be imposed and things
like that. Or of course it obviously doesn't give them any
responsibility for someone's permit pulling privileges being taken
away or their license being revoked.
MR. DICKSON: Mr. Palmer?
MR. PALMER: The '-
MR. DICKSON: I have a question to you, if I could.
MR. PALMER: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKSON: You've made a comment. I've been on this
board for nine years and, you know, we've had this, we've had
the developers come in and rent a contractor and -- or rent a
license and all that.
The whole intent of when we did this financial responsible
officer was to make them more responsible than the license
holder. And the reason -- and I agree with that. And the reason it
should be that way is when I have a license holder in front of me
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April t9, 2000
who qualifies his own company, I not only have his company, I
have his livelihood. And if he's like every other contractor in the
world, everything they own personally is in that company.
Whereas, I had the fat cats coming in for years and years and
years renting a license, bankrupting a contractor that was
foolish enough to qualify a company. So we wanted that
financial responsibility officer to be much more responsible than
the license holder.
MR. PALMER: Well, I understand. The thing about it is,
though, that you don't have a financially responsible officer if you
have a bona fide 100 percent responsible qualifier.
The problem I've got with it is being a qualifier subsumes
the obligation of a financial responsible officer. And the only
time you need a financial responsible officer is if one person
doesn't want to assume all the obligations of a qualifier. That's
the way I look at it.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And that's exactly what we have in
front of us today.
MR. PALMER: And I -- as I say, he made a statement that
conflicts with his application. He said I don't want to assume all
these responsibilities. Well, by saying that statement he's saying
I'm not going to do all the things that a qualifier must do. Which
is almost like saying, well, I'm telling you that I'm not going to do
what the law imposes upon me.
MR. GALLAGHER: No, what I meant was I can't sign the
checks. I mean, I can go -- you know, the payroll, make sure the
installers get paid, make sure the products get paid. I can give
my okay to pay the bills, or whatever the matter, but I can't sign
the check.
MR. DICKSON: You can't make '-
MS. WHITE: Then why is Spraggins in Orlando?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: One at a time. One at a time, please.
We can only talk one at a time.
MR. DICKSON: But you can't do that.
MR. GALLAGHER: You're absolutely right. I can't sit there
and watch him pay the check, no, you're right, I can't.
MR. GONZALEZ: Mr. Chairman, can I make a motion?
MR. NEALE: Let me just bring up a couple of points here and
then -- I apologize.
According to the state statute, okay, which Tom and I really
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April 19, 2000
need to see how it corresponds with our ordinance, it is only a
business entity that may designate a financially responsible
officer for purposes of certification or registration.
So a contractor who is not operating as a business entity
can't just slough off his financial responsibilities.
That financial responsible officer, as we say, shall be
responsible for all financial aspects, and may not be designated
as the primary qualifier. We've been through that here at this
board.
The designated financially responsible officer furnishes
evidence of financial responsibility, credit and business
reputation of himself/herself, or the business organization he or
she desires to qualify as deemed appropriate by the board.
When they have a -- when a business has a certified or
registered financially responsible officer, the primary qualifying
agent shall be responsible for all construction activities of the
business organization, both in general and for each specific job.
Then the board shall adopt -- this is to the state -- adopt
rules prescribing the qualifications for financially responsible
officers, including net worth, cash and bonding requirements.
These qualifications must be at least as extensive as the
requirements for the financial responsibility of qualifying agents.
So the statute seems to leave leeway that the financially
responsible officer can and maybe should be more responsible,
financially responsible, than the qualifying agent. And in the
case of-- not to disagree with Mr. Palmer, but in the case of a
major contractor, I would certainly think that the financial -- if
you've got a contractor doing 50 million dollars a year in
business, you wouldn't want someone to only have a net worth of
$50,000 standing up for their business.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, thank you, Mr. Neale.
Ms. White, you had something to say?
MS. WHITE: Yes, I had a question. If Spraggins in Orlando is
paying the bills, and Mr. Neale said a financially responsible
officer does not have to be an individual, could be a corporation,
why couldn't Spraggins in Orlando be your financially responsible
officer and you be the qualifier?
MR. GALLAGHER: That's not a problem. I didn't -- you know,
I didn't know anything about that.
MR. NEALE: You may be preempting Mr. Gonzalez. Maybe
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April 19, 2000
Mr. Gonzalez could make his motion here.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Ms. White, I think that's where we're all
headed.
Mr. Gonzalez, you want to continue?
MR. GONZALEZ: I move that we cannot accept this
application the way it is. So I want to turn it down now. And
upon acceptance of a financial responsible officer from
Spraggins, then we can reconsider this application, but not until
we have a financially responsible officer that we appoint -- or
that we accept who applies from Spraggins, then we can look at
this again.
MR. DICKSON: Dickson, second.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. I think
that we could probably beat this up for the next two hours, but I
believe we can slow it down right here and now without any
further discussion. I'm going to call for the vote.
All in favor?
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Gallagher, you understand what
we're saying?
MR. GALLAGHER: Okay, where do I get everything I need?
Yes, I know you do. And the next thing is, does he personally
have to be here for the hearing?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I don't think he personally has to be
here. He just has to have the proper application filled out and
notarized.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, that's -- there's a fee and he has to -- the
credit report's already here.
The one thing that I think is absolutely essential that Mr.
Gallagher bring up to his employer is that not only does he have
to fill out the financially responsible application, he should
provide this board with a resolution of the board of directors of
Spraggins Flooring, that this gentleman is to be the qualifier and
is legally authorized by Spraggins Flooring.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: He has that.
MR. GALLAGHER: I've got --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: He has that in the packet.
MR. NEALE: Well, he needs to be legally authorized to be
the qualifier and act in all aspects of contracting for the
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April 19, 2000
business.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: How much --
MR. NEALE: And--
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Neale, how much further would you
have to go that effective this date Kevin Gallagher is appointed
as the qualifying agent for the Fort Myers division of the above
mentioned corporation?
MR. NEALE: What it should say, it should mirror or mimic
the language in the ordinance which says that he is responsible
for the supervision, et cetera, et cetera. And you can get the
language from the ordinance.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, my first thoughts are, this joint
written consent of the board of directors and stockholders, if this
is a form not supplied by county staff, it was supplied by the
company itself, then we need to make note in our process that if
we don't have the form that mimics the statute, then we have to
at least make sure that they provide us with that form when they
do a written affidavit as such here.
You understand what I'm saying, Mr. Bartoe?
MR. BARTOE: I do.
MR. NEALE: Well, what it does~ for the board's benefit, is it
saves the board having to ask the one question that the board
always asks, which is do you understand what you have to do as
a qualifying agent. If they've already been appointed by that
company to do that, it's then understood.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, you guys have a copy of
those applications for the financially qualifying agent? MR. BARTOE: At Horseshoe Drive, yes.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: At Horseshoe Driver no problem. So Mr.
Gallagher can go by and see Judy or someone there and pick up
that form?
MR. BARTOE: Correct.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Would it be too much also to ask then
that the wordage that Mr. Neale is asking to be -- to appear in an
affidavit mimic in the law as far as the financially -- or the
qualifying agent's requirements be handed to him too --
MR. BARTOE: Yes, I think it's too much to ask of staff. Let
Mr. Gallagher's company come up with that.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Not a problem. I just want Mr.
Gallagher to know what we're asking for here so that he doesn't
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April t9, 2000
come up with three or four or five of them before he gets one
right.
MR. BARTOE: Staff is very swamped in the office~ sir.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: All right.
Do you understand what we're asking for~ Mr. Gallagher?
MR. GALLAGHER: You're asking -- yeah~ you need a letter
from the corporate officers stating that I'm the qualifier of the
company and that I assume all responsibility in contracting -- or
more or less the production of the work -- CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's correct.
MR. GALLAGHER: -- and overseeing supervision of the work.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's correct. And then go by
Horseshoe Drive and pick up an application for a financially
qualified officer.
MR. GALLAGHER: Okay. But, I mean, it still would not state
that I can sign checks.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's correct. What we've got going
here is two people. You doing the construction and someone
from Sprag. taking the financial responsibility of writing checks~
et cetera and so forth.
MR. GALLAGHER: Okay. How soon can I get this done? I
mean --
MR. GONZALEZ: As soon as you --
MR. GALLAGHER: -- review it again.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I believe that meeting all the
requirements for the financially responsible officer is not
something that will happen tomorrow morning. It's rather a
lengthy application. They have to have a bond. There's a few
other things involved with it.
So I would suggest at this point that it would probably take
enough time that we'd put you back on our agenda for review
next month, if you wanted to try to do it that way. MR. GALLAGHER: Okay.
MR. BARTOE: Yes~ financially responsible officer does have
to be reviewed and approved by the boards correct? CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes.
MR. GALLAGHER: So does he have to be here then?
MR. GONZALEZ: The application should be '-
MR. JOSLIN: I would say to speed up the process, it would
be a good idea.
Page 29
April 19, 2000
MR. DICKSON: Questions '-
MR. JOSLIN: He's going to have questions for him.
MR. DICKSON: Question was already for Mr. Neale, no, he
doesn't have to be here. Because when you see that application
and the requirements of it, you're going to see why he doesn't
have to be here.
MR. NEALE: If he's filled out that application, this board has
more than enough information '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Is that -- everything under control, Mr.
Bartoe?
Okay, Mr. Gallagher, thank you, sir.
How's our court reporter doing? I saw those fingers moving
quite speedily.
THE COURT REPORTER: Fine, thank you.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, then we'll move along.
Keith Nelson, are you here?
MR. NELSON: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Would you come up to the podium,
please.
MR. DICKSON: Poor guy has to follow that.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I was going to say, have you got your
crash helmet.
MR. NELSON: I just learned everything I needed to know.
Good morning.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I need to have you sworn in, sir.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name, for the record?
MR. NELSON: Keith Nelson.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And your reason for being here this
morning, Mr. Nelson?
MR. NELSON: Qualify a second company.
MR. GONZALEZ: Are you sure you want to?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your reasoning behind this?
MR. NELSON: I'm -- basically, I own Marco Island Screen
and Aluminum. We're doing a lot of commercial work. I want to
get back into some of the residential work. An employee that
was with me for six years, Vincent Segura, is starting into a -- he
has a rescreen license, he wants to get into residential repairs,
and it's just another facet. It's the same type of business, but
it's a little bit different. It's residential and commercial. I'm
Page 30
April 19, 2000
geared to do the commercial end of it.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So you're actually not going to own two
companies?
MR. NELSON: I own a part -- I own one company 100
percent, and I'll own a part of another company. CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay.
MR. DICKSON: You're an officer in this new one?
MR. NELSON: Yes.
MR. NEALE: To distinguish from the last one, Southwest
Florida Screening just was incorporated in December of '99. So
that's why you can look at his credit report on this one. MR. DICKSON: Which is good.
Any complaints on Marco Island Screen Enclosure?
MR. BARTOE: No, sir.
MR. DICKSON: Mr. Chairman, he's a director and officer of
the new corporation, he's got a beautiful credit report, never had
any complaints against him -- whoops, one.
MR. GONZALEZ: He's got a couple of complaints.
MR. DICKSON: Oh, I looked at the wrong one. Past due
amounts.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: However, those are all doctors' bills.
MR. NELSON: I had an emergency kidney stone operation.
It was $30,000. I didn't have insurance at that particular month.
I paid -- I've been paying off the bigger ones. I should have paid
the littier ones. They're ones that are two, $300. You know, the
30,000 '-
MR. DICKSON: Like I said, a beautiful credit report.
Because having had pre-twins, I'm getting bills four years after
they were born. Premature twins. I know what doctor bills are
all about. They just keep on going.
I move that the application be approved.
MR. LAIRD: Second.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion and a second. Any
further discussion? All in favor?
(Unanimous vote of ayes.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Approved. You have it, sir.
MR. BARTOE: Mr. Nelson, you won't be able to come into
the office until tomorrow morning, take care of the paperwork.
MR. NELSON: That's fine, I'm going back to work.
Page 31
April 19, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Roy Curry, are you present, sir?
I'm going to have to have you sworn in right here.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your reason for being here this morning,
Mr. Curry?
MR. CURRY: Well, I've been here before. And I've been in
and out of the hospital so much that I didn't know whether I was
going to make it again or not. So here I am back a little healthier
again. And I've got to make some money. They took my fishing
away from me, which I quit the construction business to get into.
And they banned all nets and everything. So it leaves me
without any income at all, you know. And the only thing I know
is concrete and masonry. And I wanted to re-up my licenses to
concrete and masonry.
I used to have seven licenses, but I just want to get the
concrete and masonry license re-upped so I can make a little
money.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're actually intending to do concrete
finishing?
MR. CURRY: I have my crews do it.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: You have crews?
MR. CURRY: Yeah, I have crews, yes. They used to work for
me years ago. I used to have 250 men working for me at all
times when I had Space Age. It's nine years in business here.
And I done most of the highrises on the beach at that time. And I
was one of the first persons licensed in Collier County.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: You've been sick for four years?
MR. CURRY: Yes, sir. I had a five-way bypass three and a
half years ago. And since then, I've been getting a lot of balloons
put in there where they took and did the bypasses and it didn't
work. And I just recently three weeks ago had another balloon
put in. And now I'm -- they've got me where I'm breathing pretty
good now.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: What year was that?
MR. CURRY: What year was what, sir?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your first major operation.
MR. CURRY: February of '97.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So in 1995, when your license was
reviewed, you didn't have that health problem?
MR. CURRY: In 19957
Page 32
April t9, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes, sir. On December 20th, 1995, you
went before this board for approval of a grade score from Indian
River County, and we granted that.
MR. CURRY: Yeah. I was sick from this -- I didn't have the
operation, but I was laid up from it and being doctored for this
thing two years previous to when they did the operation.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. But what I'm concerned with is
that we said that you needed to take the business and law
examine within 90 days.
MR. CURRY: Well, I did take it -- I did take the business and
law. And I don't know how well I did. I didn't -- I got out of the
hospital and went and done that that morning, because I knew it
was due. And I went back in for examinations. And '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I would suggest then that we need to
review the results of that business and law exam prior to making
any action -- taking any action today at all.
MR. GONZALEZ: Yeah, says here he got a grade of 49.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, that's on the first page.
MR. DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe?
MR. CURRY: I don't know what I did, but I didn't do any of
the math because I didn't have any calculator or nothing with
me, you know.
MR. DICKSON: I'm going to hit your memory. I remember
this gentleman. Was it from -- just from -- I mean, it doesn't seem
like five years ago. But he's been here before more than once,
hasn't he? And was this the gentleman also that you all were
going to try to find that we couldn't get service on? Or was that
another one?
MR. BARTOE: I don't remember that.
MR. CURRY: No, there's nothing against me in the
contractors '-
MR. DICKSON: No, it wasn't bad, don't worry.
MR. BARTOE: Mr. Dickson, what has me a little confused, as
Mr. Hayes said, it went before the board on 12-20-95 for approval
of grade scores from Indian River County. And that action was
grant. And the last page has before the board the same date for
review credit report, and that action was a denied license.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, I can't figure that one out either, Mr.
Bartoe. I looked at that. And then it says he didn't renew it in
'96, which indicates that he had a license in '95.
Page 33
April 19, 2000
MR. CURRY: I think you granted me a license for three
months in '95, I think it was. And I didn't do anything with it
because I got sick in the meantime, and I was supposed to take
the government and law test in 90 days, in which I was very sick
at that time and was unable to do it at all. In fact, I'm glad to be
here to be '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So I'm going to tell you that unless I'm
mistaken somewhere, we're not looking to reinstate a license,
we've never granted it fully to begin with.
MR. CURRY: Well, I was -- I've had a license in this county
long before anybody lived in this county. I've built most of this
county with concrete and masonry and never had a failure.
Always was a good practice man. Always done what I was
supposed. I got out of it because certain things happened in the
way of construction that I didn't want to do it anymore, and I
went into the commercial fishing business.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I understand that, Mr. Curry. But I'm
going to ask you the question: In '95, why were you applying for
a license if you'd had one forever?
MR. CURRY: Because my license, I put them up. I wasn't
using them before that. I wasn't using my license, so I put them
up until -- you know, I didn't know whether I'd ever use them
again or not at that point.
MR. BARTOE: I also see here he was on the agenda for
5-21-97, requesting to reinstate his license, and he did not
appear that date.
MR. CURRY: Yes, sir, that's when I was sick. That's when I
was really sick during that time. MR. DICKSON: Mr. Curry?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Right here. Look up this way.
MR. DICKSON: Do you remember me?
MR. CURRY: Yes, I remember you.
MR. DICKSON: Okay, and I remember you now as you're
talking. And I went to bat for you.
MR. CURRY: Well, I appreciate that.
MR. DICKSON: The reason we did '-
MR. CURRY: That's just '-
MR. DICKSON: Let me finish.
The reason we did the 90 days -- it all comes back to me
now, I did go to bat for you, and on the basis that you had been
Page 34
April 19, 2000
approved, you'd never had a complaint. All you needed to do was
get that business and law test. And that's why we did the 90
days. And I made the motion for you to keep working for 90
days, because we found out that there was a test within 30 days,
and you said you could go take that.
Now, you kind of put me in a predicament, because I know
you had some health problems, but '-
MR. CURRY: Bad health. Like I say, I'm lucky to be here
even talking to you, you know, from what I went through, you
know.
MR. DICKSON: And it stinks.
MR. CURRY: But I got a lot of bills, you know, I got to pay
and I don't know any way to pay them but that. They won't let
me fish anymore. The state said, well, we'll do something, we'll
get something for you to do, when they took the license away
from me. But they can't -- I don't know if they're going to want to
send me to college. I've been there. I don't need to go to
college, you know.
MR. DICKSON: See, how do I go to bat for you again when I
did before and what was supposed to happen didn't happen?
MR. CURRY: Well, I took the -- like I said, things happened
that I can't -- that I had no control over, you know. And I look
like a healthy specimen, but I'm not.
MR. DICKSON: When did you take this test?
MR. NEALE: April of '99.
MR. JOSLIN: April of '99.
MR. CURRY: '89, I think.
MR. DICKSON: Why did you do so poor on it?
MR. CURRY: Like I said, I come out of the hospital to do it. I
didn't have any calculator with me or nothing. Only thing that I
didn't do was the mathematical questions. Everything else was
fine. It's the mathematical questions that I didn't do.
MR. DICKSON: I'll buy you a calculator. Come on, that's no
excuse.
MR. CURRY: But everything that's on there, I've been doing
for years. That government and law was nothing new to me that
you have to do, you know. And nothing a good auditor can't do
for you, which I had for years. I don't know whether you
remember -- you wasn't here when Space Age was alive?
MR. DICKSON: Uh-uh.
Page 35
April 19, 2000
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Curry, you mentioned that you're going to
have crews working for you. Are these crews men that are going
to be employed by licenses you're trying to get for the business,
or are these just men that are going to just help you out
whenever you need help?
MR. CURRY: See, I don't want to go out here and do what
these contract -- all these contractors want me to come and say
hey, work for us so you can work on our books. I don't want to
do that. If I can't do it right, I don't want to do it at all. I can't be
like a bunch of people out there doing it that don't have licenses,
just working under contractors. That's not the way the thing was
set up. The thing was set up, as far as I'm concerned, you had to
be a legal contractor to do it with a license, not work under a
general contractor's license. And I don't want to have to do that.
MR. JOSLIN: I understand that. But you didn't answer the
question.
MR. CURRY: What did you say?
MR. JOSLIN: I asked you -- you said earlier that you were
going to hire crews~ you were going to have crews do the work
with you because you were not able to go out and do the actual
physical work any longer.
MR. CURRY: Yeah, I'm able to supervise but not to do the
physical work.
MR. JOSLIN: Exactly. You are aware you're going to have
to have insurances and Workman's Compensation?
MR. CURRY: Oh, yeah, sure, I understand that.
MR. JOSLIN: And you're willing to do this?
MR. CURRY: Oh, yeah. Yeah, liability and everything, sure.
MR. JOSLIN: Because in the packet, I see nothing at this
point where you have done that.
MR. CURRY: I wouldn't do anything without insurance. You
know, you can't very well operate without insurance.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, what is this titled comment
listing report anyway? Where did that come from? What is it?
Where all the information on his testings and actions on the '-
from the board appeared.
MR. BARTOE: Came from the computer in the office.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: This is an interesting report. And I'm
questioning why we've never seen such a report before. I
wouldn't mind seeing something like this on every case that we
Page 36
April 19, 2000
hear.
MR. BARTOE: If it's been somebody that's, you know, never
been before this board and has no action taken, there won't be
anything generated such as this.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's what I was questioning, what
spurred this one, this type of report. Okay.
MR. NEALE: Gentlemen, if I may, maybe we can short
circuit a little bit of this.
MR. GONZALEZ: We've got nothing to review.
MR. NEALE: That's -- I think Mr. Gonzalez has already said
what I was going to go say. According to our ordinance, there's
no license to reinstate. The requirement would be for a full new
application. He has taken a test within the last three years, so
he doesn't have a retesting requirement, and the board could, if
he comes before this board, waive or, you know, accept the test
requirement. But frankly, the board would be acting in violation
of our ordinance to act on this matter today without having the
full application package in front of him.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I tend to agree. However, I'm going to
tell you that even at that, Mr. Curry, what we're talking about is
that you have really -- you're required to put together a full
application packet with credit reports, with all your licensing and
exam testings and times, and fill in all the blanks of a normal
application for a license. And we don't have that with us as we
speak today.
MR. CURRY: My grandfather didn't -- don't help me out at
all? Grandfathered in?
MR. GONZALEZ: Everything expired, sir.
MR. CURRY: You know, a lot of things -- you know, a lot of
things expire. There's a point come in time when you have to
look at other things, not just one certain thing. You know, just
like you or him or him. Something might happen to you that you
have to do these things, and it becomes a case you don't like it
to happen, but it happens, you know.
I'm not asking for anything that I can't do or I don't know
how to do. You know, I built half of this town or better myself,
long before a lot of you fellows was even here in town, you know.
And I'm the one that was -- constituted all these licenses to
begin with, to keep these people out of here, you know?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I'm going to tell you that I don't
Page 37
April 19, 2000
believe, unless somebody wants to make a motion around me,
that there's anybody on this board that's going to grant you that
license today, sir. However, that's not to say that a few things
that you can undertake on your own may change that position.
And one of them is a new application so that we can review a lot
of other things besides just a couple of piece of report.
I'm going to tell you right now that in looking at the report
papers that are just in front of us right now saying that we told
you in 1995 to go take the business and law exam and give you
90 days to do so and you have not successfully completed it,
there's nobody here going to grant you a license with that one by
itself.
So I'm not even going to speak for this board at this point
and tell you that if you fill out an entire application process and
come back here that you're even going to get it then.
MR. CURRY: Otherwise, you'd rather me be out there and be
abandoned and do it the way they want me to do it, not the way
that it should be done, right?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: No, sir. We don't even have a clue that
you haven't already been abandoned.
MR. CURRY: No, I haven't. I haven't touched nothing yet. I
come before the board to do it legally and honestly.
MR. DICKSON: And Mr. Curry, I'm going to make a comment
to you. I was impressed by you the first time I met you. And we
went to efforts. And we have rules that we have to do it legally.
MR. CURRY: I understand. I understand.
MR. DICKSON: And that's all we're doing. No one's coming
down on you.
MR. CURRY: I knew the board before it was a board, you
know. I knew everybody on the board before it was -- you know.
I mean, I've been here a long time, since '31. I've been around
Naples, lived here back and forth since 1931, and I know
everything that's transpired in this town since then.
MR. DICKSON: And there's people that would go 10 miles
for you. But we've got to get the basis.
MR. CURRY: I understand that. So what do you need from
me?
MR. DICKSON: Full application.
MR. CURRY: Full application. What does that mean, a full
application?
Page 38
April 19, 2000
MR. DICKSON: There's a packet that they have that you
have to fill out.
MR. CURRY: Does she have that down there, Ms. Puig have
that downstairs?
MR. DICKSON: Over on Horseshoe, yes.
MR. CURRY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Over on Horseshoe Drive.
MR. CURRY: I know where it's at. I've been there.
MR. DICKSON: Go see Judy, she'll give you a full packet.
Get that filled out. We get credit reports, all of it then. We can't
act on this.
MR. CURRY: All I'm doing here is to find out what I have to
do, when I have to do it. If I live long enough, I'll have it done.
So that's what you need, right?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes, sir, go down and see Judy again.
MR. CURRY: Thank you for your time.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you, sir.
We don't have a -- we didn't have a motion. We didn't make
a motion, we just said that we can't act on this today.
MR. NEALE: That's '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And we suggested to him that he fill out
the full application and come back and see us.
MR. DICKSON: We'll see him again.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: You think we will?
MR. DICKSON: Yeah, he'll probably outlive me.
MR. NEALE: He'll outlive all of us, probably.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're looking at possibly giving him
another 90 days, approving the license, give him another 90 days
to take the law exam again?
MR. NEALE: We've added something to the -- the board has
added something to the ordinance, since Mr. Curry was here
before, which says that the board may consider the applicant's
relevant experience in the specific trade, and based upon such
experience may waive testing requirements if convinced that the
applicant is qualified by experience, whereby such competency
testing may be superfluous.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Might be one of the reasons it was put
in the ordinance.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, it was for people like this, I think '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes.
Page 39
April t9, 2000
MR. DICKSON: Yeah, he started naming buildings before.
And he did build this town.
MR. NEALE: So I '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah, there's no doubt, he's one of the
old-timers.
MR. NEALE: We'll get Mr. Curry's application back here.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: But the question -- the fact remains, we
do have some guiding ordinances that we can't violate either.
Okay, can we move along here? Michael Craft, are you
present, sir?
MR. CRAFT: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Had to sit through a lot of stuff, Mr.
Craft.
Take the podium. I'm going to have to ask you to get sworn
in.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Your name, for the record?
MR. CRAFT: My name's Michael Craft.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And your reason for being here this
morning, sir?
MR. CRAFT: I think basically we're down to -- we've been
through everything except some financial review. And in what
few sheets I've given you there, there's some explanation for
where we are at this present time. And Mr. Nonnenmacher-- I'm
sorry?
MR. NONNENMACHER: Nonnenmacher.
MR. CRAFT: Okay, I was close.
-- had suggested I come before the board and give reason as
to why you're looking at what you're looking at.
We have been in the steel fabrication and erection business
since '74. And we have operations in Columbus, Ohio and Myrtle
Beach. And we went to Myrtle Beach in 1992 to open up that
operation, and left an individual in Ohio in charge of that
operation by the name of Mr. Roshack (phonetic).
And we monitored Mr. Roshack what we felt was very close,
and it basically comes down to the old classic story that we
were not getting the full information on where we were
financially in that company. And by the time we did, we found
ourselves in a mess.
So when we came to the bottom line, we had a couple
Page 40
April 19, 2000
creditors that were after us pretty heavy. And under discussion
with my attorneys, we had filed a Chapter 11. Then on the third
hearing of that procedure, the court took it under advisement
and flipped it to a Chapter 7. So you can see by the documents
the dates of filings and the dates of discharge. So that pertains
to the credit.
At the present time we basically have no debt. We're
probably in the best financial shape we've ever been in. We have
no real liability as far as coming down here and working,
because, I mean, you folks have no liability, because the steel is
paid for. The steel is laying on the job.
Basically we are seeking a license to operate in Collier
County to erect two projects for Ross Development. This is a
company we've been working for for probably 12 years. And we
just finished three projects for them in Oklahoma. We've done
probably two million square feet for them in Ohio. Good
company, pays their bills, everything's fine. We always work
with them on a joint check agreement on raw materials, so there
is no problem there, it's paid for.
The financial situation is not something we were proud of.
And that basically gives you the background as to where we '-
how we got to where we were, and where we are today.
MR. DICKSON: What kind of volume does your company do
sales in a year?
MR. CRAFT: About four million.
MR. DICKSON: You've been in business since when?
MR. CRAFT: '74.
MR. DICKSON: '747
MR. CRAFT: 1974.
MR. DICKSON: And the hit you took in Myrtle -- what was
the city where you had the problem?
MR. CRAFT: In Columbus, Ohio. That's where we started.
MR. DICKSON: No, I mean where you had the problem
financially.
MR. CRAFT: Correct.
MRI
MR.
MR. DICKSON: Okay.
Ohio that it put you down?
MR. CRAFT: Yes, sir.
DICKSON: Was what office?
CRAFT: It's Columbus, Ohio.
And the hit was so bad in Columbus,
Yes, sir. Because another thing that
Page 4t
April 19, 2000
had happened was that the individual running the Columbus
operation had not paid the franchise on the corporation up there;
so, therefore, it all fell back on my shoulders, too. So the
corporate mail came to me and we had to react.
When we closed up there, when we filed the action, we had
receivables of about 585,000, and assets of about 460,000, and a
debt of 680. So we felt that Chapter 11 was the way to go. And
Calhoun, the judge, took it upon himself to flip it to a 7. So that's
how we got to where we are.
MR. DICKSON: The Chapter 7 date?
MR. CRAFT: It was filed September of '98, and the discharge
was March of '99.
MR. DICKSON: Okay. Now, what about a credit report since
September of '987
MR. CRAFT: It's in the packet, which you do not have, but
it's '-
MR. DICKSON: It would be nice if we could look at that.
MR. NONNENMACHER: If I may, for the record, my name is
Bob Nonnenmacher, licensing compliance officer.
Mr. Dickson, to answer your question, as you noted in the
beginning of the meeting, this was an amendment to the agenda.
This was done for Mr. Craig's (sic) benefit at the last moment.
He had a moment with a job starting. And we squeezed him in as
fast as we could to come before you.
I have a credit report here. Unfortunately it wasn't in your
packet. It should have been. But with the rush, apparently it got
omitted by the clerical staff. I'll be glad to give this to you.
There are really two things that we were concerned with
when we looked at it, and it was for suppliers: Superior Welding
and for Sam's Equipment Rental.
The credit report, from what I could see, doesn't show the
bankruptcy on it. And when Mr. Craig (sic) informed me that
everything was discharged, that's when I told him he would have
to make 15 copies of proof of that and bring it before you.
He did have some other problems with letters and
registering with the state, fictitious names, so on and so forth.
Staff has straightened all that out and we're down to a credit
report now.
MR. GONZALEZ: How about testing?
MR. DICKSON: That's in there. 82 percent.
Page 42
April 19, 2000
MR. NEALE: 87 and 76.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Craft, who is Michael A. Craft?
MR. CRAFT: Michael A. Craft is my son.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: He's your son?
MR. CRAFT: Yes, sir.
MS. WHITE: Is the credit report that you just gave Gary, is
that '-
MR. CRAFT: I have another copy.
MS. WHITE: -- is that on the company, or is that on him
personally?
MR. CRAFT: Me personally.
MR. NONNENMACHER: It should be in your packet.
MR. CRAFT: As you noticed in the application, the
application is Michael D. Craft. Under the license.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Which is you?
MR. CRAFT: Yes, that's me.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Bartoe, or Mr. Nonnenmacher,
perhaps, this is an application, a new application for license?
MR. NONNENMACHER: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: All right. And we're to look at this in
the file credit report as the credit report to review the license?
MR. NONNENMACHER: That's correct. And like I said, at
the time I could see no evidence of a bankruptcy, and I
instructed Mr. Craft to bring proof of that and show you.
MR. DICKSON: And the bankruptcy was just the
corporation?
MR. CRAFT: Well, no, because what had happened in Ohio
was that the franchise taxes were not filed and taken care of
properly, so the corporate mail was pierced, it came straight on
my shoulder.
MR. DICKSON: Okay. So September of '98 was the Chapter
CRAFT: Correct.
DICKSON: -- for this corporation and you?
CRAFT: Yes. It's a list of me and '-
DICKSON: Okay.
CRAFT: -- everything that I've been involved in.
DICKSON: I got you.
CRAFT: It's a clean slate.
NEALE: In fact, I've got in front of me documents which
7 filing '-
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
Page 43
April t9, 2000
purport, and I have no reason to doubt them, a letter from a Mr.
Michael P. Vasco (phonetic), who says that he represented Mr.
Craft in regards to the bankruptcy filed in September, '98, which
included several of Mr. Craft's companies. Mr. Craft obtained a
discharge on March 4th, 1999. All the debts, judgments and suits
listed on his credit report have been discharged through said
bankruptcy. The letter is dated April t3th, 2000.
There is also a copy of the discharge of debtor order dated
March 4th, 1999, listing both the debtor's Social Security
number, which I would believe is Mr. Craft's Social Security
number '-
MR. CRAFT: Yes.
MR. NEALE: -- and also, an employer's I.D. number. And let
me look here.
MR. CRAFT: Basically what had happened, we had filed a
Chapter 11 because we thought we had everything in place to
work it out. And when it was flipped to a Chapter 7, then it was
a real scramble to get all the paperwork redone and back in so
that Judge Calhoun could take care of it.
MR. NEALE: This does say that it is a Chapter 7. The Social
Security number listed on the discharge order is the same as the
Social Security number on -- as far as I can tell, it's not a great
copy, but it appears to be the same as the Social Security
number listed on the in-file credit report. And so '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Mr. Neale, if I may suggest, we're
sitting here wasting our time. There's absolutely nothing we can
do except enjoy looking at a credit report on an individual and go
on home.
I understand from previous communications earlier today
that anything attributable prior to a bankruptcy, we can't
consider anyhow. And he has absolutely nothing on his credit
report of any credit history after the bankruptcy. So that's all we
can review to begin with.
MR. NEALE: The only thing you can look at is there are
some creditors shown -- really, you're absolutely correct. I mean,
there are, on the third page of the credit report, trade history.
MR. DICKSON: Yeah, but Mr. Neale, if-- but Mr. Hayes is
right. Because if you look when he opened the account, it goes
back into dates '-
MR. NEALE: Prior to.
Page 44
April t9, 2000
MR. DICKSON: -- prior to.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: As far as I'm concerned, Mr.
Nonnenmacher, there's not a thing we can do but smile and look
at this and send you on your way.
MR. NONNENMACHER: I'd be happy to smile right along
with you.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I don't even know of an action we need
to take.
MR. NEALE: Really, the board needs to find that this
gentleman should get his license. I think there should be a
finding of that.
The interesting part about this, and once again, to
distinguish it, is Mr. Craft, through some element of courage on
his own part, I guess, is going forward, not as a corporation but
as a d/b/a. So he truly is completely on the line for anything that
happens.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm going to tell you that I would say
that we should take no action -- make a motion to take no action
at all. I don't want to take an action approving a license based
on what we have in front of us, Mr. Neale. I don't want that
responsibility.
MR. CRAFT: Mr. Hayes, that is the credit report. I mean,
that came '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's fine.
MR. CRAFT: That came straight to you sealed. And then I
was very surprised that the bankruptcy was not listed on there.
That's why I brought it to Mr. Nonnenmacher's attention.
MR. NEALE: I can -- Mr. Hayes, I appreciate what you're
saying, but our -- the Collier County ordinance in Section
22-184(C) says when an application is referred to the
Contractors' Licensing Board, the board shall take testimony
from the applicant and shall consider other relevant evidence
regarding whether the application meets the requirements of this
division.
Upon evidence presented by the applicant, the contractor
licensing supervisor-- the Contractors' Licensing Board shall
determine whether the applicant is qualified or unqualified for
the trade in which the application has been made.
So the burden has been put on the board by the referral of
the application, so the board really doesn't have an option of
Page 45
April 19, 2000
taking action.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. However~ we have not -- on our
agenda, it wasn't written~ and we do not have an application. We
only have a credit report.
MR. NEALE: No, there was an application. At least in the
packet that was passed out to me.
MR. DICKSON: May I ask a question? Is Mr. Nonn -- I'll tell
you, I'm having a problem with this~ too~ because this is going to
set precedence. File a bankruptcy and we have to approve a
license. This man's been operating -- the bankruptcy was in
September of '98. He's been living since then and he's been in
business since then. This is not the credit report that we
normally see here in Collier County.
Where did it come from and who provided it? The question
is directed to you~ Mr. Nonnenmacher. I think there's another
credit report out there~ or a better one.
MR. CRAFT: We met the requirement of what you asked for.
MR. DICKSON: I'm asking my question --
MR. CRAFT: We sent you a credit report from a national
credit reporting company. We had no control over this~ it came
straight to you.
MR. NONNENMACHER: What he says is the truth. We will
not accept a credit report handed in by an applicant. It has to
come straight from the approved credit report company. MR. DICKSON: Who is this~ Equifax?
MR. GONZALEZ: It says Credit Bureau of Myrtle Beach.
MR. NONNENMACHER: Yeah, Credit Bureau of Myrtle
Beach, Accounting Unlimited.
MR. DICKSON: Can we not request the credit agency that
we normally get?
MR. NONNENMACHER: From what I understand~ we can
request an approved credit agency. I would imagine the clerical
staff has a list of the credit firms that they'll accept reports from~
and this was accepted by staff.
MR. NEALE: Ladies and gentlemen~ I do want to make a
point as to what the ordinance itself says~ though. That may be
policy~ but it's not the ordinance.
The ordinance is 22-182 under applications~ Subsection
B-13~ says in addition to the aforementioned information, the
applicant shall attach or submit the following information: A, a
Page 46
April t 9, 2000
credit report compiled by a nationally recognized credit agency
that reflects the financial responsibility of the applicant. That is,
the burden, according to the ordinance, is on the applicant to
provide the credit report.
Now, the policy and operational procedure is different.
Without that having been adopted by this board as a formal rule
change, the policy of the ordinance, even if it has not been
followed, is still the policy.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, my concern still yet, I'm not going
to say the gentleman is worthy or not worthy of a license. As far
as I'm concerned, he could be very worthy to carry a license in
Collier County. I'm just concerned that this board is not going to
jump on the motion to approve a license in Collier County.
MR. PALMER: Mr. Hayes, the ordinance says a nationally
recognized credit agency. CB Myrtle Beach, we don't know who
these people are. We are at our rights to require a updated
current credit report from a nationally recognized credit agency
before anybody analyzes the creditworthiness of this applicant.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, I don't need to-- I don't
particularly think that we want to make this gentleman jump
through any more hoops than he needs to.
MR. PALMER: No, but that's the requirement imposed upon
everybody. It is not staff's prerogative to say that they'll accept
a credit report from CB from Myrtle Beach. They may have done
it, but they're not authorized to do it. The ordinance requires a
credit report from a national agency and nothing else. So staff's
action about accepting this is beyond their authority.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, in that particular '-
MR. NONNENMACHER: There he goes again.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: In that particular case, once again,
though, if we are convened here today to review a credit report
and this is the credit report that we have in front of us, do we
have the option of not accepting this credit report?
MR. NEALE: The board has several options at this point.
The board can request that the applicant provide a credit report,
as specified in the ordinance, which is one from a nationally
recognized credit granting agency, credit reviewing agency. Or
in the normal course of things, I guess the staff requests that
report and requests that this gentleman come back to our next
meeting. Or if the staff deems the credit report to be in
Page 47
April 19, 2000
compliance with the ordinance, then the staff could grant the
license.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, right, thank you very much. That's
my concern at this point. I'm not saying that you're license
worthy or not license worthy, Mr. Curry (sic). I'm just saying that
I am not personally prepared to grant you a license today. That's
not to say that the county staff can't do it based on your
application being in order. You understand what I'm saying?
MR. CRAFT: Well, yes and no. I mean, the fact is that if you
pull -- we had no control over this credit, okay? This came to you
in a sealed envelope. Comes from their staff in a sealed
envelope. Credit Bureau of Myrtle Beach subscribes to and gets
their information from Equifax.
We have a letter here. Because we went back and
challenged the credit and said why would you not show the
bankruptcy on the credit report. And they said we don't know,
but here's what you got to do. And they said '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, well, again '-
MR. CRAFT: Let me please continue.
They said you have to go back and you have to go to -- and
he lists the companies that I have to go back to, which includes
Equifax, Experion (phonetic) and TransUnion Corporation is
where he gets his information. And we have to show them the
rest of what happened, because they don't have it.
And we said by the way, we want that on there so it clears
up the rest of it and get it off. They said it takes 30 days.
Because he gained his information from those sources. That's
what he is. That's where he reads. He's a member of those
three. So in a roundabout way '-
MR. NONNENMACHER: Maybe that's why staff accepted
that credit report, due to the companies that furnished the
information are national companies.
MR. CRAFT: What I'm saying is, they're going to read the
same.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, again, thank you. That's exactly
what I'm saying. And it doesn't matter to me whether this is a
nationally recognized or accepted credit report or not. If you
brought me one next month that is and it had exactly the same
information, I'd be in exactly the same position I am in today
anyway.
Page 48
April 19, 2000
MR. NONNENMACHER: Just one question for you, Mr.
Hayes. Is it your contention to send this gentleman away and
put the burden on staff to license him at this point? Is that what
you want?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: At this point in time I personally -- and
I'm not going to speak for the board -- but I personally would not
grant a license based on the evidence I have in front of me today.
MR. DICKSON: Mr. Nonnenmacher?
MR. NONNENMACHER: Okay. And we can use our
discretion, when we get back and look at the file, to grant the
license without bringing this gentleman before you again?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes, sir. I think based on the fact that
we can't review anything prior to a bankruptcy anyway, neither
can you.
MR. DICKSON: Can I make a motion? And I'll answer that
question in my motion.
I move that this request be denied today; that a credit report
from a nationally recognized credit agency be obtained by county
staff; and if transactions subsequent to the bankruptcy of
September, 1998 show creditworthiness, then the license be
granted. If transactions since September of 1998 show credit
problems, then Mr. Craft will have to come before this board
again at the next monthly meeting.
Is that clear, what I'm saying in my motion?
MR. NONNENMACHER: It's clear.
MR. DICKSON: If the credit's clean from September of '98,
yes. If it's not clean, come back to the board.
MR. NEALE: If I may, Mr. Dickson, just -- the discharge was
actually March 4th, '99. The filing was September, '98, but March
4th, '99 was the discharge.
MR. DICKSON: Okay, then I amend to March 4, '99.
MR. NONNENMACHER: So what you're asking for in your
motion is an updated credit report covering March 4th, '99 to
April, 2000.
MR. DICKSON: And from a national reporting agency. See --
MR. NONNENMACHER: I'm not quite sure that we can say
this isn't a nationally accredited agency. I -- how can any one of
us say that? I don't know. I don't know if you know and I don't
know if Mr. Palmer knows.
MR. PALMER: Well, I know that I know most of them, and I
Page 49
April 19, 2000
never head of these people.
MR. CRAFT: They get their information from the three
majors, sir.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a motion on the floor at this
point.
MR. JOSLIN: I second the motion.
MR. PALMER: The problem with that is that that is hearsay
to this agency.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Here's the letter.
MR. PALMER: The fact that they may have been told '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Gentlemen.
MR. PALMER: -- it's a national credit -- this is hearsay.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: It doesn't matter, Mr. Palmer.
I have a motion and a second on the floor, sir. Any further
discussion?
MR. SCHOENFUSS: If we pass this motion, are we
delegating the responsibility of the board to the staff? With all
due respect for the confidence of the staff, are we passing the
buck to the staff when we should be accepting the responsibility
ourselves?
MR. DICKSON: No, I think what we're doing here is trying to
work with Mr. Craft, because time is of an urgency.
But Mr. Nonnenmacher, the reason I said what I did and the
reason I don't like this credit report, you can't live in this world
for a year or a year and a half and not have it reported on a credit
report. That's why I don't like this credit report.
And I can look at things after the judgment of the
bankruptcy, and with this credit report, I can't look at anything
after the bankruptcy.
MS. WHITE: He's right. The credit report is dated April 5th,
2000. The bankruptcy was March 4th, '99. That's a lot longer
than 30 days for it to show up.
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Craft, you haven't been doing business in
Collier County with other builders?
MR. CRAFT: No, we're not. The only reason we're here in
Collier County at all is to service a customer of ours that we've
worked for all over the country, and that's Ross Development. I
mean, we're here to put up a Michael's and a Pet Smart and
we're back out of town, and that's it.
I mean, I've gone through all the testing, I've gone through
Page 50
April 19, 2000
all the fees, I've gone through all of these steps, except coming
down to this. And I've set steel all over the country and I've
never gone through all this. And we've never had a problem.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm not saying -- I don't believe that this
board is prepared to deny you a license, okay? But I don't
believe this board is prepared to grant a license as well.
MR. CRAFT: Can I ask a question? If we get Mr.
Nonnenmacher a credit report that shows that since the
discharge of the bankruptcy that we have good credit -- in other
words, what it's going to show is done, because there has been
no credit. I mean, we haven't created any bills, we haven't done
anything else -- can he issue the license?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, yes, but I'm going to ask you these
questions, then. On this credit report, under inquiries, since the
bankruptcy we have a February 16th inquiry by American
Equipment, a March of '99 inquiry by EPI, a July inquiry in 1999
by Equifax Receivable Management, and another request for
information on January, 2000 from Western Reserve. Is that not
applications for credit?
MR. CRAFT: Those are not applications for credit. Those
are -- those are applications where they will verify that you are
who you are so they will take a check. CHAIRMAN HAYES: I got you.
MR. CRAFT: No, no, we -- I don't have any credit. I don't
want any credit, okay? I've got a forklift that's paid for for a
month; I've got a room that's paid for for three weeks; the steel's
paid for on the ground laying over there. The job needs to be set
next Monday, okay? That's where we are. That's why I'm here
today. And that's why Mr. Nonnenmacher was so nice to add me
to this agenda today, so that it can be resolved today, hopefully.
I mean, in three weeks we're back out of town, and you won't
hear from me again, probably.
MR. DICKSON: That's exactly the point we do what we do.
Everyone on this board came from out of state. It took me a year
to get set up in this state. Florida ain't a cake walk '-
MR. CRAFT: Nobody's looking for a cake walk.
MR. DICKSON: -- and it never will be.
My motion was very clear. If the credit report -- because I
don't like what I saw, and I've never seen a credit report like
that, plain and simple.
Page 51
April 19, 2000
If the credit report that we recognize from a national agency
shows either good credit or no credit since the discharge of your
bankruptcy, the motion was clear, the license will be approved.
If it doesn't show -- or if it shows bad credit --
MR. CRAFT: Was your intent with your motion to give them
the authority to grant the license?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: No, sir, that was my suggestion. His
motion is to approve your license --
MR. CRAFT: At a board meeting.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- if those conditions are met. No.
MR. DICKSON: I call for the vote, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CRAFT: Again--
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I have a call for the vote.
MR. CRAFT: Again, does that give them the right to give the
license?
MR. DICKSON: How many times -- how many ways do we
answer it?
MR. CRAFT: I'm asking the question simple, it's either yes
Or no,
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yes.
MR. CRAFT: Okay, that's it. That's all I want.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I'm calling for the vote.
All in favor?
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Very well.
Mr. Bartoe, do you understand what we're trying to get at?
Mr. Nonnenmacher?
MR. NONNENMACHER: Yes.
MR. BARTOE: I think so.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And I hope you do too now, Mr. Craft.
MR. CRAFT: I think so. Because, I mean, I could have that
to them tomorrow, you know.
MR. DICKSON: Then go for it.
MR. GONZALEZ: Get it done.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Thank you, sir.
(Mr. Laird exits boardroom.)
MR. DICKSON: Let the record show Mr. Laird is leaving, but
we do still have a quorum. So '-
MR. LAIRD: I think we have a quorum, Mr. Chairman.
Page 52
April 19, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, any other old business?
MS. WHITE: Excuse me, do we have somebody from two
months ago, a Mr. -- a Gregg Price Painting that was supposed to
be on this agenda?
MR. BARTOE: I wasn't here two months ago.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: We were here two months ago. We
didn't come here in -- oh, in February, okay.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, he was supposed to come back, wasn't
he?
MR. DICKSON: And he hasn't come back.
MS. WHITE: He wasn't on the agenda and I had it in my
notes. I just wondered.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, unless it got resolved.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: If I may ask you to bring the same
question up next time so that when he does finally show up and
he's three, four, five, six months down the road, we're not going
to take any action, okay? Just to keep us reminded.
Any other old business? We don't have any public hearings.
How about reports?
Mr. Bartoe, do you have any reports?
MR. BARTOE: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, for discussion. Any discussion?
MR. BARTOE: Yeah. We added to talk about ordinance
amendments. Mr. Neale and I were talking the other day, Mr.
Palmer had mentioned it a month or two ago, we should start
putting together some suggestions for amending the ordinance.
And then staff thought about holding off for awhile, because we
just amended the ordinance in '99. But as Mr. Neale said, we
probably should start about June. Maybe with -- we'll get a rough
draft of some changes that staff would like to see to Mr. Palmer.
And I'm sure he might have some things to add state
statute-wise that would be required in our ordinance. And --
CHAIRMAN HAYES: In other words, just to review it at the
very least.
MR. BARTOE: Just to get started. Because the whole
process, as Mr. Neale said, will probably take a few months.
MR. PALMER: And I would just like to say, though, I am not
aware that we are compelled at this time to any changes to the
state statutes to amend it as a matter of law. I think we're
talking about cleaning up discretionary amendments. If a bill
Page 53
April 19, 2000
does come down the legislature that it does require us to in
effect amend it mandatorily, I would advise staff and the board.
MR. NEALE: And we'll know that by next meeting, because
the session's over in three weeks, so '- CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, super.
MR. NEALE: -- whatever devilment they do in Tallahassee,
we'll know in three weeks.
There are some issues that really should be addressed. And
we had a meeting at Development Services back in -- back about
a month ago now, and some issues were brought up that we are
going to address, particularly issues on grades and credit
reports.
The whole handyman issue, handyman exceptions, the -- we
determined -- or learned that this is handed out when someone
applies for an occupational license, that they will not perform
any of these services, or they'll need a -- need an actual
contracting license.
MR. GONZALEZ: Competency card.
MR. NEALE: A competency card.
And it's somewhat unclear. I mean, if I read through it, I
wouldn't know if I was doing this or not. So there needs to be a
more -- a clarification of that, on what the handyman exceptions
are.
One issue that Judy brought up has been a real bugaboo for
them, and I think is for everybody, is the issue of reciprocity,
what if any policy this board wants to set or recommend to the
County Commission on reciprocity with other licenses. Because
right now that's pretty wide open. It appears we don't grant
reciprocity to anyone, but occasionally we do. MR. BARTOE: Correct.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: About five years ago, I wrote the actual
wording. The question came up about five years ago, and I
actually sat down and wrote the wording and sent it through the
system and said here's probably what -- in fact, the wording
came from other counties as well, that this is -- if we were going
to enact reciprocity, this is what it should read like. And I have
never seen it since.
MR. NEALE: Well, if you can find it again, it would be good
to have, because that is an issue that was brought up. Right now
it's somewhat done on an interpretive basis, and I think there
Page 54
April 19, 2000
needs to be a policy on that.
We also discussed at some length the whole issue of what
came up again today, financially responsible officers. One of the
things that Mr. Palmer and I are going to be working on is
generating a checklist, a cheat sheet and a clarification of it for
both this board and for staff over there.
And I think, Mr. Hayes, you were on the board when we went
through, and I think several of you were when the ordinance was
last amended. I think maybe not the last amendment, the one
before that when the board chose to hold numerous workshops,
actually invited members of the various trades in to give
testimony. And I believe at that time it created a really good
amendment to the ordinance, and I would suggest to the board
that it consider doing that once again.
Because as Mr. Bartoe brought up, we have a fair amount of
time to do it in. It would be good to -- you know, we can't really
recommend to the current County Commission to make a major
ordinance amendment when at least three of the seats are going
to change as of November.
So I would suggest that this would be a project that would
be looking to get in front of the County Commission sometime
after the first of the year. So it gives this board several meetings
to work and plan and develop a better ordinance.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I would hope that that is exactly the
way it comes into play.
Is there a flag or a question or a marker or something that I
can suggest, Mr. Bartoe, when whatever amendments and
recommendations that staff has on the ordinance passes onto
Mr. Palmer, that sometime within that process, that it comes out
to the board here for some kind of a workshop and review with
you?
MR. BARTOE: Oh, correct, it will.
And if any of the board members, you know, have any
suggestions, just get them to us in writing, and we'll make sure
Mr. Palmer gets them when we submit everything else to him.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Super. I'm going to suggest at this
point then to the board members that you grab that license and
spend a few days reviewing it. If you in fact see some serious
needs for amendments, if you'll bring them back to the board,
we'll establish a workshop for those, and then we can move that
Page 55
April 19, 2000
process as smoothly as possible.
MR. PALMER: Mr. Hayes, I was just thinking possibly of
getting a strike and underlined draft, an executive summary,
explaining what changes are being proposed and why, if they're --
it's not apparent from the text itself, so that you can just
coordinate the executive summary to the various provisions and
you'll have the whole picture right there. We can prepare
something like that for you.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Excellent. Okay.
Any other discussion?
MR. GONZALEZ: I just wanted to point out, on Mr. Craft's
credit report there are some negative credits since the
bankruptcy discharge. In the collections area. The Credit
Bureau of Myrtle Beach is one of them. He owes them $458.
Equifax Receivable, he owes $308. And it's not -- they're not big,
but he does have negative credit since.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I was looking for those as well. Where
did you see them?
MR. DICKSON: Right here.
Just in a point of discussion, the thing that really bothered
me about that is I travel all over the country hanging steel and in
three weeks I'm going to be out of the state.
MR. JOSLIN: Yeah, I didn't like that comment.
MS. WHITE: And I won't be back.
MR. NEALE: I'm sorry, but I'll never be back.
MR. GONZALEZ: Yeah, that's a problem.
MR. DICKSON: And people know all over the country when
you come to Florida and expect to go to work, you better do your
homework. So as long as I'm on this board, I hope after I'm gone
people don't let something like that get ramrodded down your
throat.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Well, that leaves us with the option '-
leaves him with the option. Does he rent a license for his
one-shot job? What options does the man have?
MR. DICKSON: I can't stop a guy from robbing a bank, but I
can only work within the law.
MR. NEALE: And that is -- you know, I think Mr. Hayes brings
up a point that probably the board, maybe even the Board of
County Commissioners needs to look at, is with the advent of big
box retailers building, you know, the same store all around the
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April t9, 2000
country and using the same contractor because they got this big
deal with them, how should those licensure issues be addressed
for the contractor that moves in, builds a Sam's and moves on
that isn't a local contractor?
MR. PALMER: Mr. Hayes, what strikes me is how much
credibility can any of us give to a credit report that missed a
little item like a bankruptcy?
MR. NEALE: Just a real minor item like that.
MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Palmer.
MR. NEALE: But I -- you know, just something for the board
to put in its caps while it's thinking about the ordinance
amendments is the whole issue of since some of these retail
establishments are building these uniform design stores and they
use typically the same contractors moving all over the place,
what -- you know, what needs to be done?
CHAIRMAN HAYES: What process is there actually to go.
MR. NEALE: What process is there actually to be done.
MR. DICKSON: There is an exclusion of that in the general
contractor section of the licensing.
MR. NEALE: Right. If they're working under a local -- or a
state GC, they can do it.
MR. DICKSON: A general contractor out of state can come
in and do a project. There is a variance to that.
MR. NEALE: Right. But that's just an issue.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: All right, any other discussions?
MR. DICKSON: Use locals.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I mentioned earlier to Mr. Neale, I don't
know, Mr. Bartoe, or Mr. Nonnenmacher, if you can answer it. We
have two types of licenses in Florida: State certified license and
a state registered license; is that correct? MR. BARTOE: Correct.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: The state registered license is a local
license granted by the local municipality but registered with the
state.
MR. BARTOE: Correct.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: If I have two plumbing contractors, one
is a state certified contractor and the other one is a state
registered contractor, do both of them have to maintain CEU
credit levels?
MR. NONNENMACHER: I don't know.
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April 19, 2000
MR. NEALE: I actually had found it in the statute '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Oh, you did?
MR. NEALE: -- after we spoke, and I have since lost it. But
it was my reading on it, a quick read, that yes, they do have to
maintain the continuing education credits, just as if they were
state registered '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: That's what I thought.
MR. NEALE: -- state certified. Here we go.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So in a case where we have a drywall
contractor that's state registered -- wait a minute, let's look at it
this way: There is a license or two or three that the state does
not sanction, that Collier County requires. Which one was it? We
had one a few months ago.
MR. BARTOE: There's a number of them Collier County
requires that the state has nothing to do with.
MR. NONNENMACHER: Wall covering.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Throw one out.
MR. BARTOE: Floor covering.
MS. WHITE: Wood flooring.
MR. BARTOE: Tile and marble.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Tile and marble. Okay, let's look at tile
and marble. Then tile and marble does not have a state certified
license but it has a state registered license. MR. BARTOE: No.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Yeah. If '-
MR. BARTOE: County license.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, but a plumbing license in the
county is state registered as well.
MR. BARTOE: Right, major trades.
MR. NEALE: Only the major trades.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, that was my question.
MR. BARTOE: I had a painting license. You do not register
that with the state. That's a county license.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, which is true. You don't register a
non-major license with the state.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, so if it is '-
MR. NEALE: Because the counties can -- or the local
governments can create the other license categories that are not
specified in 489.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. So the license -- the local license
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April 19, 2000
requirements that state be registered for that license is only
specific trades. Only, as you call it, the major trade. MR. BARTOE: Correct.
MR. NEALE: Ones listed in 489.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. So a drywall contractor then is a
local licensed contractor.
MR. BARTOE: Correct.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: He does not register with the state on
any shape, form, or fashion. MR. BARTOE: No.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: So he does not need CEU credits.
MR. BARTOE: No.
MR. NEALE: But if a person does register their license with
the state, under 489-115, and it was amended just last year, each
certificate holder or registrant shall provide proof in a form
established by rule of the board that the certificate holder or
registrant has completed at least 14 classroom hours of at least
50 minutes each of continuing education courses during each
biennium since the issuance or renewal of the certificate of
registration.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. So let's say then that a drywall
contractor is licensed in Collier County. He can avoid all of that
by not registering with the state.
MR. BARTOE: No, the state requires -- if you're a registered
contractor, according to Mr. Neale, the state requires a
continuing education. But let's say you're a county licensed
residential contractor, registered with the state -- I have seen it,
Bob has seen it -- send in a complaint form to the state on that
person. Guess what they'll do with it? He's licensed by the
county. They'll send a complaint to the county. They make you
register, they make you get continuing education, but then they
say we can't take any action, he's county licensed.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: The American Specialty Contractors
Association is currently active in CEU credit participations. And
since we are, we're also tracking our members that require CEU
credits; we're tracking those credits for them so -- as a member
benefit so they won't have to worry about losing their credits or
forgetting where they've done them.
And one of the questions that was popped up was the
drywall contractor, a painting contractor, a -- says we don't have
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April 19, 2000
to have CEU credits. And I was under the impression that all
specialty trade licenses were registered with the state. So I just
put my foot in my mouth. Because I said if you're not state
certified, you're state registered. And that's not correct. We
have three licenses: We have a state certified, a state registered
and a county license only.
MR. NEALE: That's my understanding.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: And that's clear, okay. It stinks. Yeah,
it's bad. But I was just -- I just was concerned that I was giving
out bogus information, and in fact, I was.
And is there anywhere that there's a list, a three list sheet
of paper that has those three trades -- those three license
requirements on it? I mean, I'd love to have that, because I
would publish that in my newsletter just so that my members
know.
MR. NEALE: Well, the state certificates are shown in 489,
the requirements for registration are in 489, and then of course
the list of local licenses is all shown in our ordinance, in the
Collier County ordinance.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. All right. So I can maybe get
that list, Mr. Palmer?
MR. PALMER: Yes, sir. It would be just those that we
locally license that are not in the 489 list. So if that has 12 and
we have 16, it would just be the additional four. It would only
take a few moments, actually, to find out which of these -- my
understand, correct me if I'm wrong, if in fact you are a trade
that is -- that you can get a license from the state and you get it
locally, that you must register, that that's not optional.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, I got you.
MR. PALMER: It's only that additional, say those additional
four, where we license that the state does not have any
licensure process '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay.
MR. PALMER: -- that there is not even a provision for them
to register with the state.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: The state?
MR. NEALE: For example -- yeah, Mr. Joslin, I'm sure, is very
familiar with the fact that as a swimming pool contractor, you
may be locally swimming pool licensed, but I believe -- and I
want to recheck, but I think Mr. Palmer is correct -- you must
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April 19, 2000
register that license with the state. MR. JOSLIN: Every year.
MR. NEALE: You are only -- but -- and it's clear in the
definition, that if you are a locally licensed state type contractor,
for lack of a better term, you must register it with the state, but
you may only practice in the jurisdiction in which you are
licensed.
So, therefore, if you've got a Collier County swimming pool
and spa license that you register with the state, you can't go to
Alachua County and act as a contractor there without submitting
to the jurisdiction of that county.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Once again. Okay, so until we clarify it,
and I probably won't need to mention it, but I'm going to assume
that at this point in time there is not a state regulated license for
drywall contractor.
MR. JOSLIN: No, there is. I'm quite certain. I know of a
person that just took the test. And again, went to Tallahassee,
took the test, three-hour written exam, three-hour business and
law. Passed the test, now is licensed, but a registered
contractor.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay. Then if that is in fact true, then a
local drywall contractor with a local license must register with
the state.
MR. PALMER: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, that's beautiful.
Okay, thank you, I'm clear now.
Anything else? Any other discussion?
MR. JOSLIN: By the way, one other thing, you're probably
aware of this, too, but a lot of the registered contractors now are
going to be able to be grandfathered in to the new laws.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: There'll be a single tier licensing.
MR. 3OSLIN: Right. You won't be registering law, you'll be
commercially or you'll be state certified, because that's '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: What happens if there is not a painting
contractor license in the State of Florida today? Are they going
to make one?
MR. BARTOE: No, county requires a license.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I realize that, but if it's single-tiered
license, if it all goes to the state license like he's talking about.
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April t9, 2000
MR. BARTOE: That won't. State doesn't require painting
license.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: But the county is not going to be able to
require it now either.
MR. BARTOE: Why not? We can be more restrictive.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Good point. Okay.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: It's not my understanding it's going to
be a single tier arrangement. They're just going to keep
maintaining the registered '- MR. JOSLIN: No.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: -- and not issue any more.
MR. JOSLIN: No, they're not going to issue any more
registered licenses.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: No, they're not '-
MR. JOSLIN: They're going to take the test right now and it
will be a certified test, basically. MR. SCHOENFUSS: What?
MR. JOSLIN: When someone now applies for a new license,
like in the swimming pool trade, my trade, there will be no
registered test '-
MR. SCHOENFUSS: Right.
MR. JOSLIN: -- no more block exam. You have to go and
take the state certified test.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: Exactly. But the people that already
have that can continue '-
MR. JOSLIN: Can continue, yes.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: -- to keep it.
MR. JOSLIN: Yes, they can. But if you trade, if you transfer
it over and go into the certified status, then you relinquish your '-
MR. SCHOENFUSS: Yeah.
MR. JOSLIN: -- license and now everything turns over to the
state certified license.
MR. SCHOENFUSS: That's always been the way, that part.
MR. JOSLIN: But not grandfathered where you don't have to
take the test.
MR. PALMER: Has anybody heard anything about the
possibility of state preemption; that is, that if you are going to
get a license, it's only at the single tier level, and that they have
take away the power of the local jurisdiction to give local
licensure? Has anybody heard anything about that? I mean, that
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April 19, 2000
would be at the discretion of the legislature.
When somebody said a single tier, it's conceivable the
legislature said the only license that will be issued will be from
Tallahassee, and local governments will have no licensure
jurisdiction outside of that. I just wondered if anybody heard
about that.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Nothing.
MR. NEALE: Although, it is interesting, just having not really
pursued this issue, before but 489-117, and it's sort of
interesting, 117-1(A) says any person engaged in the business of
a contractor in the state shall be registered in the proper
classification, unless he or she is certified.
Now, what that implies is that if you are acting as a
contractor, under the definition, that you may have to register
even if there isn't a state -- let me just see what the definition is
-- I'm sorry to keep running on like this, but '-
MR. GONZALEZ: Unless you're certified, you must register.
MR. NEALE: That's what it says. Let's just look at the state
definition of contractor.
MR. GONZALEZ: Because when you're certified, you're
already registered.
MR. NEALE: Contractor means the person who is qualified
for and shall only be responsible for the project. Contracted for
means except as exempt in this part, the person who, for
compensation undertakes to, submits a bid, blah, blah, blah, any
-- to improve any building or structure.
There certainly is an interpretation that says anybody who is
a contractor, period, under any kind of license should register.
MR. PALMER: I could call Tallahassee, find out the answer
to that question.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Would you, please?
MR. PALMER: Yes, indeed.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I mean, I just don't want to run around
telling people things that aren't true.
MR. PALMER: My assumption was that locally people were --
there's no category in Tallahassee, there was no requirement.
But maybe they have a miscellaneous classification. I'll find out
the answer to that and get back to you.
MR. NEALE: My reading of 489-117 says every contractor
that's licensed in the State of Florida --
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April t 9, 2000
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Gets back to my exact '-
MR. NEALE: -- whether by the state or locally must register.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: -- my first question. There are two
types of licenses in the state of Florida. According to that
wordage right there, there are not three types, there are just
two.
MR. NEALE: Registered and certified.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: You're either registered or you're
certified. And he says as well -- Mr. Neale says as well, according
to 489, if you are certified or registered, you must have CEU
credits.
So Mr. Palmer, you're going to confirm that?
MR. PALMER: Yes. I'm going to call them today and get this
answer nailed down.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: I will give you my card, you can give me
a call.
MR. NEALE: Okay. Because it may well be that this could
be a major shock to a lot of contractors in this town.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Exactly.
MR. NEALE: I would '-
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Any other discussion?
MR. NEALE: I'll say what I was going to say off the record
later.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Next meeting is May the 17th.
Mr. Nonnenmacher or Mr. Bartoe, does it look like at this
point any evidence of a meeting for sure on the 17th of May yet?
MR. BARTOE: I cannot tell you for sure at this time.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Not a problem. Okay, that date will be
set aside for a meeting, should it occur.
I make a motion for adjournment.
MR. GONZALEZ: Second.
CHAIRMAN HAYES: Okay, done.
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April 19, 2000
There being no further business for the good of the County,
the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11:25 a.m.
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR'S
LICENSING BOARD
GARY HAYES, CHAIRMAN
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT
REPORTING SERVICE, INC., BY CHERIE' R. LEONE, RPR
Page 65