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BCC Minutes 10/27/1993 W (Marco Island)NOTICE: COLLIER COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS AG~NDA Wednesday, October 27, 1993 5:30 p.m. Marriott's Marco Island Resort & Golf Club 400 South Collier Blvd. Marco Island, FL 33937 Ballrooms A - D THIS MEETING WILL BE CONDUCTED VIA AN INFORMAL PROCESS. IF YOU WISH TO SPEAK ON THE AGENDA TOPIC, PLEASE RAISE YOUR HAND; THE MODERATOR WILL RECOGNIZE YOU AND YOU MAY SPEAKAT THAT TIME. YOUR COMMENTS SHOULD BE ADDRESSED TO THE MODERATOR OR THE COMMISSIONERS. PUBLIC SPEAKERS WILL BE LIMITED TO FIVE (5) MINUTES. 1. IFTRODUCTION 2. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE 3. BOARD OF COUMTY COMMISSIONERS A. Zoning overlay for Marco Island B. South Beach parking issue C. Sand Dollar Island issue D. Planning process for potable water on Marco Island E. Lack of enforcement of Ordinance 91-47 - removal of exotics (Australian Pines) F. Future Commission town hall meetings on Marco Island 4. P~BLIC CCMMEMT 5. ADJO~RM COLLIER COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS TOWN HALL MEETING ORIGINAL October 27, 1993 5:30 p.m. Marco Island Marriott Hotel 400 South Collier Boulevard Marco Island, Florida 33937 Reported by: Christina J. Reynoldson, RPR Deputy Official Court Reporter OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS Carrothers Reporting Service, Inc. 20th Judicial Circuit - Collier County 3301 East Tamiami Trail Naples, Florida 33962 TELE: (813) 732-2700 FAX: (813) 774-6022 A-P-P-M-A-R-A-N-C-~-S ROARD MRMRRRS: Timothy J. Constantine, Commissioner John Norris, Commissioner Bettye Matthews, Commissioner Burt L. Saunders, Chairman Michael J. Volpe, Commissioner STAFF MRMBRRS: Bob Blanchard - Site Development Director Tom Conrecode - Director, Office of Capital Projects Kenneth Cuyler - County Attorney C. William Hargett - Assistant County Manager Mike Newman - Water Director MarJorie Student - Assistant County Attorney AT.SO PRRSRNT: Frank Blanchard Judi McConne11 T -N-D-R-X Introduction ................. 3 Pledge of Allegiance ............. 5 Zoning overlay issue ............. S South Beach parking issue .......... 25 Sand Dollar Island issue ........... 41 Potable water issue ............. 60 Adjourn ................... 76 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 3 PROCEEDINGS CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Ladies and gentlemen, if you would take your seats, we're going to begin the workshop. Ms. McConne11. MS. McCONNELL: How are the microphones working? Butt, speak again into yours and see if it's working properly for us. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Testing, one, two. MS. McCONNELL: I think we just have to stay kind of close to them. Do you all have an agenda? We're going to conduct the meeting this evening a little informally. Before I begin with the process, please let me introduce myself. I am Judi McConnell from the Marco Island Chamber of Commerce. And we're certainly all glad that you're in attendance. We're very grateful and thankful to our county commission that they would come to Marco Island for a town hall meeting, and the county staff as well. As I said, the agenda this evening is going to be informal. For those of you who have ever been to a workshop or a regular commission meeting, you know most OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 of the time you have to sign up to speak and that sort of thing. We're going to do this a little less formally this evening. So as we come to agenda items, please -- there will be some introductory comments by either the county commission or staff and then if you have a comment or question please raise your hand and as soon as we get our microphone as portable as we need it to be out there we'll begin this process. We will then be bringing the audience microphone to you individually to speak and we'll just try to progress that way throughout the evening. And we do have six specific agenda items and then time for public comment. So I think there will be ample opportunity for everybody to discuss the issues that they need to discuss. Please remember that there is a five-minute time limit on your comment or question, and we will try to hold to that Just to make sure the evening runs smoothly and everybody has a chance to comment, if they in fact would like to do so. According to our agenda, this is the moment for the Pledge of Allegiance and there is no flag. So, I've done OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 5 this many times in the past when I've sat in the audience and Just stood and pledged allegiance to that imaginary flag in my mind. So if we all could do that right now, please stand for the pledge. (Recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance.) MS. McCONNELL: I think we're still waiting for the microphone to be exactly as we need it, but I don't think we'll wait to begin. We'll Just start off and if in fact public comment becomes necessary, the microphone is currently just placed right there in the middle of the room. I think most of you can see it. And we'll Just go ahead and use that format, and Frank Blanchard is going to be the microphone moderator. So we'll Just proceed with that format until we have more extension for the microphone. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: While we're waiting for -- are you finished? I'm sorry. MS. McCONNELL: Yes. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: While we're waiting for the microphone to be set up, let me on behalf of the county commission thank Ms. McConnell for inviting us out here. The county commission has an unwritten policy at OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 6 = I this point of attempting to have a town hall meeting in each of the five county commission districts, and this is each year. So this is our opportunity to be here on Marco Island. You get to hear us all the time and we don't get to hear you very often, so our main objective today is to introduce a few topics we know are of interest on Marco Island and to give you information from our staff on those particular issues and then to solicit your comment, your questions, concerning those issues. We also do not want to limit it Just simply to the issues that we have listed on the agenda, so when we finish these four or five items, we would encourage you to tell us what you think is important on Marco Island, tell us what you think -- or, actually the entire district, not just Marco Island. Tell us what you think is important and things you'd like to see the county commission and county staff doing. This is our opportunity to hear from you and this is your opportunity to tell us what's on your mind. Before we begin with the formal agenda, I would like to -- you know who all of us are. Well, we have OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 7 signs in front of us so you can tell who we are, but I'd like for our staff members -- perhaps, Mr. Hargett, if you could start, Just introduce yourself and let everybody know your position with the county and then we'll begin the formal agenda, or the informal agenda. MR. HARGETT: My name is Bill Hargett. I'm the Assistant County Administrator. MR. CONRECODE: My name is Tom Conrecode. the Office of Capital Projects Management MS. STUDENT: My name is Marjorie Student, and I'm an Assistant County Attorney. MR. CUYLER: Attorney. MR. B. BLANCHARD: I'm Ken Cuyler. I'm the County I'm Bob Blanchard. I'm with I ' m the S ire I'm the Water Development Director, and I'm not related to Frank. MR. NEWMAN: My name is Mike Newman. Director for the county. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: You can tell from the outset how much we like to solicit input from our staff. They have one microphone amongst the six of them and we have five for the five of us. The first issue on the agenda is in reference to OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 8 the zoning overlay for Marco Island. As you all know, this is an issue that's been kicked around for quite some time. MarJorie Student and Bob Blanchard, the gentleman not related to Frank Blanchard, they're going to give a little bit of a brief overview of where we are in the planning on that and then we'll open it up to some public comment. MR. B. BLANCHARD: I'll start this discussion off. We had a meeting with some folks out here Just last week or the week before and began some discussion about possibly placing the zoning overlay on Marco Island. One of the things you need to realize that it is not is a zoning overlay is not a way to implement your deed restrictions that exist as a result of the Deltona development. What it is is the potential to develop some specific development standards that apply specifically to Marco Island and be implemented through our zoning code. Very simply, the final overlay and the rezoning activities that occur at the county, it would not be unsimilar (sic) to the approval of the Planned Unit Development which is a process whereby a piece of OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 property comes in for rezoning and basically negotiates their own development standards rather than having to comply with an existing set of standards that may apply to residential property that's going to be developed in four, six, ten units per acre or to commercial property which has some very specific setbacks, height limitations, things like that. I think that the staff is probably under the assumption that what we would be looking at is probably things that deal with side and rear yard setbacks, with height limitations, with those kinds of development standards. And, of course, one of the things that would be most interesting, and it would have to be decided, is exactly how you all would decide what the standards are that you wish the county commission to tell the staff to enforce and for them to actually pass by ordinance. What we have decided is that an overlay is definitely feasible and can be implemented for Marco Island. The question becomes one of what are we going to put into that overlay and how you all are going to decide what it is that you want. Remember, it is not the implementation of the deed restrictions. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 10 CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS| Miss Student, did you have anything you wanted to add to that? Mr. Blanchard, while she's speaking on that issue, one question that may come to everybody's mind is the timing. Assuming that you work out all the details of the issues that go into this, what kind of time frame are we talking about for the implementation? MS. STUDENT: We had the meeting as Bob alluded to a couple weeks ago here on Marco Island and I believe after the holiday staff is going to commence a study of what these restrictions might be. The only other thing I have to add from a legal perspective is I have done some research on how those might be established and the case law tells us that you establish a zoning overlay district in the same manner that you do a fezone, with advertised public hearings before our Planning Commission and the Board of County Commissioners. MR. B. BLANCHARD: The question relating to the timing is once it's decided what it is that will go into the zoning overlays, we have an amendment cycle for our Land Development Code, which is where all of our OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 11 development regulations are established. We are allowed to amend that code twice a year, and so it would fall into one of those cycles. The two cycles are January and July. So every six months we have the opportunity to go through an amendment cycle. So let's assume that there was some consensus among the islanders that is presented to the Board of County Com~issioners and they agree to proceed with that, they would instruct the staff to carry it forward in the next amendment cycle. So if it happened like next March, we would be in the staff process next July. Typically it takes about three months to get through the adoption process. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Thank you. Are there any questions from the commission, any comments from the commission? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I might make a comment. The impetus for bringing this back to you for discussion was the observation that over the years one of the things that seems to resurface from time to time is some dissatisfaction on Marco Island with the county zoning codes and making a preference for some of the zoning OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 12 codes as they would appear in Deltona's original plans. So the thought very simply is to take some of those differences and itemize them or list them and have some committee or some mechanism to determine which of those seems to be desirable to deviate from the county standards as far as Marco Island's concerned. Then we would be able to set that all up in the zoning overlay district and Just apply it island-wide. The Marco Island Civic Association agreed during our meeting to make a list, on one side listing the desirable Deltona deed restrictions and on the other side of the page to list the applicable county zoning standard. And our county staff has agreed to do the same thing in separate meetings and organizations and then at some point bring the two together, go through them and then have someone, some organization on Marco Island, yet to be determined, decide if it's worth pursuing or whether it's not a feasible idea. So we're really at the formative stages of this and Just at the beginning. So that's where we are. MS. McCONNELL: Do we have any public comment or question? OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS| to the zoning overlay at this point. MS. McCONNELL: Correct. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Yes, sir. MS. McCONNELL: Frank, up here. Would you stand up, sir? And when you come to the mike, please identify yourself for the record. MR. TINKSTRUM: My name is Norman Tinkstrum. live on Olds Court on Marco. Just out of curiosity, and I have no strong We're limiting it specifically feelings one way or the other on this, but I assume that the original Deltona deed restrictions were approved by 13 some governmental body at the time they were established. I have never understood the objective of the county honoring those restrictions. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I can answer that. The county does not enforce deed restrictions. That's a civil matter between the parties that agreed, the buyer and the seller. And nowhere in the county will you find the county enforcing deed restrictions. The only thing we have the legal authority to -- OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 14 and legal staff, if I'm overstepping or understating, Just Jump right in any time. But the county doesn't have the legal authority to enforce anything beyond their own zoning codes. And that's why if you want those deed restrictions or some of those deed restrictions to be enforced by the county then this is the mechanism you can apply to do that. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: There's another practical reason, also. In Collier County, or in any county, there are literally hundreds of different sets of restrictions. Every subdivision, every development, will have different subdivisions, different setbacks and height limitations, architectural reviews. All of those are all different. It would be a practical impossibility for local government to enforce all of the zoning deed restrictions within Collier County because they're all different. Now, when you get to an area the size of Marco Island and the complexity of Marco Island, it makes sense to take a look at the zoning restrictions and see which ones they assess to enforce from a Collier County standpoint. But if we had a policy of enforcing all of the deed restrictions throughout Collier County, we'd have 50 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 15 people sitting over there in the enforcement division trying to keep track of what those are. So that's a practical problem as well as a legal problem. Anyone else? MR. TINKSTRUM: One final queetion on that. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: If you can come up to the microphone here. MR. TINKSTRUM: Is the county continuing to approve deed restrictions for local developments? CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Commissioner Volpe, do you want to respond to that? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Good evening. The county does not actually approve deed restrictions as Commissioner Saunders has said. That's typically a contractual arrangement between yourself and your seller. Or, for those of you who live in condominiums, you have condominium documents that essentially set forth certain covenants and restrictions that pertain to your ownership. So the county doesn't actually get involved in those types of restrictions. As a part of the approval process, and I guess I'm going to need some help on this as kind of a dialogue, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 16 4 Marco Island is a Development of Regional Impact; isn't it? Actually, the whole development. So there was a recent -- no. Mr. Cuyler's saying no. MR. CUYLER: No, it's never been classified as a DRI, which really is pre-DRI. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: But in terms of the actual zoning for Marco Island, is there a type of PUD, Planned Unit Development, for the entire island? MR. CUYLER: No. For the most part, they're under general county regulations. There are obviously PUDs more specific. And another point on deed restrictions that might make it a little bit easier to understand is you may move into a subdivision and the minimum square footage of your housing requirement may be 4,000 square feet or 3,000 square feet. When you purchase in that subdivision, you enter into a contractual arrangement that you will abide by deed restrictions and in fact construct, do whatever that minimum square footage is. The county, who operates on a health, safety, welfare basis, can't Justify making the minimum square footage of a house 3 or 4,000 feet, but you as a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 17 purchaser had agreed to do that and once you agree to do that you're bound by that. The enforcement mechanism is a civil mechanism, either the developer or a neighbor who wants to enforce those deed restrictions can attempt to enforce them through the civil process. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: If I could, I was on the Board and I think I have some knowledge about some of the instances that arose that perhaps precipitated the discussion about the zoning overlay. I have a question for our staff. In Immokalee, for example, and in Golden Gate, for example, we have separate Master Plans for those co~munities. At the time that we were developing the Growth Management Plan for Collier County, was there any thought given to actually master planning Marco Island, which is unique because of its location? MR. B. BLANCHARD: No, there was not. There was a recognition of the existing zoning out here, and the debate that occurred did not include any consideration of a separate Master Plan. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: I Just mention that because as OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 18 a part of what Commissioner Norris is championing is the establishment of certain development standards for existing zoning. But keeping in mind that the Board of County Commissioners is part of the development, the Growth Management Plan actually singled out Immokalee and Golden Gate and essentially within our Growth Management Plan set out a separate Master Plan for those communities. And there might be some opportunity to take it to the next step Just simply beyond those development standards as part of an amendment. I just mention that. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: All right. Are there any other comments? Yes, sir. MR. BUSSE: Harr~ Busse. How did we get along -- CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Sir. MR. BUSSE: -- so well up -- CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Sir. MR. BUSSE: -- 'til now? CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Sir, we need to have you come up to either the microphone or the microphone come to you OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 19 or -- MR. BUSSE: Harry Busse. Mow did we end up getting along up 'til now? (No response. ) MR. BUSSE: Hello. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: In terms of the enforcement of deed restrictions on Marco Island? MR. BUSSE: What we have now. improve? It's not broken, is What do you have to CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Well, there are a lot of people that think it may not be broken but they want to ensure that it doesn't get broken. genesis of the whole thing. in place. MR. BUSSE: That's probably the real There are deed restrictions find that if government gets mixed up too much then we have problems. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: MS. McCONNELL: or comment? Right over here. MR. BLASE]{: My name is Bill Blaser. concerned about the words "zoning overlay." All right. Does anybody else have a question I'm a little I'm very OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 20 familiar with the deed restrictions. And as far as I'm concerned, they're almost exactly the same as the county setbacks, front yard, side yard, and so on. So they're not a problem. But when you talk about zoning, that means changing the use of property. This, I think -- who's deciding that, if such a thing is contemplated? In other words, we have zoning in terms of use, commercial areas, residential areas and so on. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: In reference to the zoning overlay that's contemplated, my understanding is that that would not include any changes to the utilization of property, it simply would be a codification of appropriate deed restrictions so that there's another authority that enforces those deed restrictions. But it would not go to the underlying zoning, simply the enforcement of deed restrictions. I don't believe there's anything on the table beyond that. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: There is not. And as a matter of fact, I believe in our first discussion that it was specifically stated it was not, Mr. Blanchard, that commercial and multi-family property would not be OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 21 included in any basis; is that correct? MR. B. BLANCHARD: That's correct. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: changes. MR. BLASER: overlay is for. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. Let me see if I -- MR. BLASER: Are there things like TV dishes that are not covered now in the deed restrictions? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: You can do that. the main concern over the years has been in setbacks, building heights, driveways, this sort of thing. MR. BLASER: They're the same as the county. Will the county change them for us? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Excuse me? Say that again, please. MR. BLASER: Those setbacks are the same as the county's. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: No, they're not. PER. BLASER: Well, take my word for it. few inches they are. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: That's correct. There will be no land use Then I still don't understand what the The only -- Within a Let me suggest to the audience OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 22 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 the reason that this issue is being debated is because there are several associations on Marco Island that have come forward and asked us to evaluate that. They sponsored a meeting I think on October 15th that Mr. Cuyler or Miss Student artended. So if you are opposed to the interference of government on that particular issue, then you need to let the associations know what your thoughts are. MR. BUSSE: What associations are they? CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: I don't know off the top of my head. Mr. Blanchard, do you know? Mr. Blanchard, do you know the associations that are spearheading this? MR. F. BLANCHARD: Marco Island Civic Association, Taxpayers Association and Marco Association of Condominiums. The first step or the end product of that meeting, I think, was to lay down a list of what the county has, what Marco Island has, to see where the differences are. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: So we're at the very early stages of this zoning overlay. If there's not general agreement that it's needed, then you need to let us know that before we get too far down the road with it. MR. BUSSE: Can you give me an example besides the setbacks and the side yards what would change? MR. B. BLANCHARD: The others would include -- generally speaking, it's your typical development setbacks, the building heights; could get into an issue of lot sizes, although that's already set on Marco Island. MR. BUSSE: they, and setbacks? MR. O. BLANCHARD: 23 I think the heights are set too, aren't Well, I don't know whether the county standards agree with the deed restrictions. That's the purpose of this major exercise that we're going through. So there are any of the -- MR. BUSSE: What examples can you pick out right now that we would want to change? MR. B. BLANCHARD: I don't know what you want to change. That's the whole purpose for this exercise is to find out -- MR. BUSSE: Well, you brought it up on your agenda. You must have something in mind, something that -- COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, let me kind of set you straight here. We're not pushing this. We've been asked OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 24 There's a gentleman in the back MR. CARSILLO: MS. McCONNELL: MR. CARSILLO: To help the chairman out '- Please state your name, sir. My name is Nick Carsillo, and I represented MICA at the big meeting that they're all talking about. And one of the ideas and one of the things that the gentleman in the front is looking for is the Cedar Bay Marina on Elkcam Circle. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, PL 33962 to investigate it. I'm not pushing it. Staff is not pushing it. No one's pushing it. We were asked to investigate it. At the stage we're at right now, we're going to make a list of what the deed restrictions say and what the county zoning standards say. If there's any difference, it'll show up right there. MR. BUSSE: Just for my understanding, though, I wanted some examples. You're investigating it. You have to know some examples. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: But we haven't done it yet, sir. MR. BUSSE: Well, I'm in the dark as much as you are then. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: of the room, Mr. Blanchard. 25 If you're looking for an example of things that are not under control, drive down Elkcam Circle and take a peek at the Cedar Bay Marina. This is the type of thing that fits into the category of the scheming that will not happen on Marco Island so that you do not have these types of atrocities being built all over the island with variance on top of variance on top of variance. Now, if the gentleman wants a good example, Just hop in your car and take a ride down Elkcam Circle and you will see exactly what we're talking about in this whole process. MR. BUSSE: Thank you. That's all I wanted. (Applause from the audience.) MS. McCONNELL: Do we have any other comments in regard to zoning overlay? CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: All right. We'll move on to the second topic on the agenda. This is the South Beach parking lot. Mr. Cuyler or Mr. Conrecode, I believe, have a few comments before we open that up to the public. MR. CUYLER: Mr. Chairman, my comments are brief in regard to the status of the case. We have filed a condemnation suit to acquire eminent domain on the South OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 Beach parking lot as well as to condemn the reverter interest in the beach access across the street. That litigation is pending. We're in the discovery stage. We've gotten an appraisal on the property and the case continues. I guess you should open it up at that point. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Okay. in reference to the parking lot? MR. CLAYTON: My name is Bill Clayton. Are there any comments Yes, sir. Concerning 26 the South Beach parking lot, my understanding is the developer received all of his items of interest that he wanted from the commission. In other words, he wanted variances on his property to build, change the structures and so forth as they've been previously approved. However, it seemed like the county staff, the commission, didn't get anything in return. For instance, apparently, according to what Mr. Cuyler said, we're having to go to court to get the reverter clause off the South Beach access so that we can eventually have some public parking down there perhaps. It seems like the developer got everything up front OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 27 and the public in return got nothing. Can you explain or give us some ideas about that so that perhaps we can have a better understanding on why we have to go to court to get these things? CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Mr. Cuyler, would you like to address that or anybody on the Board? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: There are two of us that sat through that rezone. I'm one of them and the other one is sitting in the middle of this dais. And that's the debate. Obviously I won't go back into what the vote was, but the concessions that were made, including the relocation of 50 units, as I recall, from the area where the parking lot is, has been identified. And there were a number of conditions that were attached. One of them was the vacator of the reverter for the beach access, and the other was that in this instance the majority of the commission agreed that that parking lot would be dedicated to the Marco Island Civic Association. And therein lies the debate and the discussion as to whether in fact that was in fact of the public benefit OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 28 that the community received in return for the various adjustments in the development plan that that particular developer had on his property. And we've labored long and hard since that occurred two years -- Ken, two years ago? MR. CUYLER: Probably two years, yes. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: It's been a very divisive Issue on Marco Island amongst the members of the Board. We're at a point where what we have, what we are trying to do based upon actions that have been taken by the Board on several different occasions, is to essentially acquire or establish that the lot would be available to the public at large rather than being limited Just to the members of the Marco Island Civic Association and its membership. So that's what the lawsuit involves. And it gets kind of complicated, but that's the background. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Commissioner Constantine. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, it's interesting. Assuming we build a lot here, the cost would be, Just to build the actual structure of a parking lot, about $550,000. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 29 Earlier this year we had an opportunity put forth to build a parking lot and then with a couple of extras on there, which there were quite a few extras, and this totalled up to about $200,000 additional over and above that 500,000. In exchange for agreeing to put those extras in the parking lot, the lands would be turned over to the county. That was -- the theory was, you know, for an extra $200,000 or in essence paying $200,000 for that lot is about what it boils down to. In essence, that is not a bad deal. Unfortunately, as we get into the possibility of eminent domain and the potential value of that lot we may very well price ourselves out of a parking lot. I don't think a one and a half million dollar or a two million dollar parking lot, I don't think any of us would say, is in the best interest of Collier County. So we still are in some sort of negotiation, I understand, but I think that -- (Applause from the audience.) COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: At that price it doesn't become very realistic. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 3O Are there any other public Let me suggest one thing to you CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: comments in reference to that? MR. D'URSO: My name's Sam D'Urso. I live on Partridge Court on Marco Island. Is it too late for the county to go back and say forget the eminent domain and let's go by the original deal and let, you know, Marco resident beach association take the lot over since you Just said its too expensive for the county to do this? So why not let the developer do what he said that he'd do originally and let the lot go to the Marco Island Beach Association? (Applause from the audience. ) MR. D'URSO: So the county is going to spend whatever money they might have already spent instead of spending a million dollars and then say, Well, we can't go on with the parking lot because the county owns that piece of land. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: and to the audience. I've said this on Marco Island on at least two occasions in the past, and I think Mr. Blanchard was in attendance one of those times. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 31 When Mr. Antaramian came to the county to have the property rezoned, he had a strong desire to have a parking lot dedicated to or given to MICA and then for the use by the Marco Island residents' beach association. His rationale was that the people on Marco Island and Marco Island had been very good to him in terms of his developments and he wanted to pay the island back. He also wanted to dedicate this lot in memory of his mother, and he was very serious about having a nice public facility for that purpose. That was his reasoning in coming to us in the first place. That was his reason for providing the public facility. We then got into the debate -- after we entered into that agreement with him to that effect, we then got into a debate as to whether this lot should be turned over to the public as opposed to a private entity, a semi-private entity, albeit. It was my hope at that point in time that Mr. Antaramian would be willing to provide the amenities, the $550,000 plus $200,000 Commissioner Constantine is talking about. It was my hope that he would be willing to do that even if the lot was owned by Collier County OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 32 and open to the world at large. Mr. Antaramian was not willing to do that, and quite frankly I don't blame him for that. That was his position, and we attempted to get him to agree. He did not. It's been my view that it is not economically viable, doesn't make economic sense, for Collier County to take this lot if we're going to have to pay $750,000, if Commissioner Constantine's numbers are correct, to build a lot. It's not worth it to let Mr. Antaramian off the hook for those improvements. So the question is, can we undo this? I think from a legal standpoint, Mr. Cuyler might want to verify it, but I think from a legal standpoint we certainly can. We can certainly go back to the original obligation, Mr. Antaramian still has an obligation, but only if the lot is turned over to MICA for use by the Marco Island residents' beach association. So I think at the end of the day we will attempt to get this lot for the public but I think at the end of the day it's going to go to MICA and it's going to go for their use. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 33 We're going through a process -- I know Commissioner Volpe will take exception to what I've said, but I think that's ultimately what's going to happen. (Applause from the audience.) COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Commissioner Volpe will not necessarily take exception to what Commissioner Saunders has said. We're involved in a long, convoluted process that began with a four-to-one vote way back when. We've now turned that around, and I think we had met with various groups on Marco Island and I think really Mr. Antaramian has a concern about how that parking facility is maintained. As Commissioner Saunders pointed out, he also has the concern that the primary people who he has dealt with throughout his development, you know, are the immediate beneficiaries. And as a practical matter, the people from Naples aren't necessarily going to travel to the south end of Marco Island. But the gentleman made the point before, and we have to deal with that, and that is that the public made certain concessions to allow all of this to occur, in OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 34 order for this facility to become available. So as Commissioner Saunders mentions, it's kind of what we've gotten into was the question about the Marco Island Civic Association -- essentially it's a private not-for-profit organization. So that's the issue we're trying to deal with. And Commissioner Saunders may be exactly right as to where we end up in the process, which is where we would have ended up back two years ago. At the time that the vote was taken, the vote was four to one. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: That's where Commissioner Volpe and I disagree. I think I'm convinced based on my conversations with Mr. Antaramian that he would never have provided that lot if he thought it was going to be open to the general public. He seriously wanted it specifically for the residents of Marco Island. But we'll never know. And I think Commissioner Volpe may be completely correct, if we had said no to Mr. Antaramian at that point in time and said if you want to do this it has to be a public lot, we'll never know if he would have said yes. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, as long as this is a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 35 public forum and we're having this debate, I'll Just make one last comment. And that is, there were 50 condominium units that were going to be off the beach that now got transferred to the beach, so there was a real impetus for the exchange. MS. McCONNELL: We'll continue with public comment. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: One last comment, sir, before we move on. I Just want to amplify on Commissioner Constantine's dollar figures. The official -- we paid for an additional appraisal of the parking lot property plus the 20-foot walkway and that combined appraisal came up to 980,000, or $20,000 less than a million. So when you figure -- assuming that Commissioner Constantine's parking lot development figures of $550,000 are correct, then you have $1,530,000 and whatever legal fees would be entailed in continuing the eminent domain suit to the conclusion. You would, in all probability, be approaching two million dollars for the parking lot for 150 spaces. It's going to be somewhere like 12 to $15,000 a parking space where we Just approved the expansion of Tiger Tail for $54,000, 99 parking spaces; come to $550 each compared to say 12 or 15 if we went OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 36 this way. So you can see immediately that the cost is far in excess of what we could do somewhere else with that money, and it becomes questionable whether it's anywhere near a good expenditure of money. So I think what we should do is to allow Mr. Antaramian to fulfill his original wishes and go ahead and have him go and take responsibility to do the parking lot himself. (Applause from the audience.) CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Commissioner Matthews. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: I might as well join in on this. I'm sorry to see that we're spending all of this money to acquire a parking lot that in the end we may not be able to acquire mainly because of the cost of it. In my mind, I would kind of like to Just simplify a way that we might handle it. The public at large allowed the extra 50 condominium units to be built and the public at large has, is paying the price for that. And the property under the agreement would be deeded to MICA. A very simplified, and I'm not sure workable, way would be for MICA to agree to give it to the county and OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 37 then Mr. Antaramian can give it back to -- (Boos from the audience.) CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Please. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: I said it was -- CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Ladies and gentlemen, we need -- COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: There's unanimous agreement on that, I see. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Please. Yes, ma'am. MS. BREYERS: My name is Mary Jo Breyers. I Just want to address my comments to the commissioners and remind them that according to the recent election that they must remember that these three organizations you're talking about do not necessarily represent Marco Island. Don't forget the rest of us. (Applause from the audience.) CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Sounds like a good -- MR. SOUTH: May I make a comment, ma'am? Jack South. It just seems -- I'm having a hard time here. really am. My name's I I don't understand what the heck you guys are OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 38 talking about. But, if he still has his variance -- now, you get a variance because you're not living within the deed restrictions, right? So you get a variance for something. He has that variance. Everybody knew when he gave that variance he traded off a parking lot to go to MICA. Now, what is the big problem? You shouldn't have given him the variance in the first place if you didn't intend to live up to your agreement. (Applause from the audience.) CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: lot issue? MR. VROOMAN: Anything else on the parking One final comment. MS. McCONNELL: MR. VROOMAN: One comment. Sir, please state your name. My name's A1 Vrooman. I think the county has a lot more important things than managing a parking lot. (Applause from the audience.) CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: While we're getting to the next speaker, Ms. McConnell one thing we failed to announce at the beginning of the meeting is the time frame that we're working under. We're going to adjourn at approximately OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER CO~TY, NAPLES, FL 33962 39 7~00 p.m~ is that correct? MS. McCONNELL: That'e correct. MR. PARET: My name is Ray Paret. I would like to congratulate the five members of the commission sitting there tonight. I always thought when I heard the television say, Be like Mike, I thought they were talking about Mike Jordan, but they were talking about Mike Volpe. Gentlemen, you Just have taken a dagger out of the heart of a lot of people on Marco Island by arriving at that conclusion logically, sanely and I want to thank you very, very much. (Applause from the audience.) COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Mr. Paret, I didn't realize you were still on Marco Island. Are you still here? MS. McCONNELL: We'll take one additional comment on this issue and then we'll move on. MR. MCBRIDE: Thank you. My name is Bill McBride. I'm assuming that I was the next person. MS. McCONNELL: Yes. MR. MCBRIDE: Somewhat related, a little bit unrelated, is still the Tiger Tail Beach parking lot. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 4O I've lived on Marco Island over a year and a half now and I don't have a membership at the residents' beach because I don't want to spend that money. Try going to Tiger Tail between 10:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m. during season and you cannot find a parking space. Now, I understand that parking spaces are going to be fixed on Tiger Tail, but there is still space at the very front entrance and I think the county should pursue purchasing additional land if and when it is available there at the front entrance because there's only so many mangroves that can be removed. Thank you. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Com~issioner Norris. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: This is a question -- did everybody hear his statement about there's some empty lots near the entrance to Tiger Tail that could be purchased and converted to parking? Does that have any support on Marco Island? What do you feel? Everybody that thinks that's a good idea, raise your hand. Everybody thinks it's a bad idea. Thank you I've not known the answer to that question A bad idea. No? very much. and although it's a -- COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 41 MS. McCONNELL= I'm not sure that you have a very good representation to tell you the truth, but -- I think that we'll move on now to the next item on the agenda, the Sand Dollar Island issue. COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Commissioner Norris yesterday -- MS. McCONNELL: Is there a co~mission comment or a staff comment? COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Yesterday Commissioner Norris convinced us that there was no island there any longer and he showed us a photograph that was taken on September 20th, Commissioner Norris, is that when it was? And there doesn't appear to be an island there any longer. UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: It's a peninsula. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: We're not even sure it's going to be that much longer. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Mr. Conrecode, I think, had a few comments to make in reference to Sand Dollar Island and then we'll see if there's any comments from the county commission. MR. CONRECODE: Just briefly to give you a little OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 42 bit of a history, there was anticipation that Sand Dollar Island would attach to the island when the Marco Island beach renourishment project was undertaken a number of years ago. And the State put in a special permit condition that if that attachment was ever made that the area would be dredged. Upon pursuing the dredge permit for that, the State denied and forced us into an administrative hearing. As a means of settling the administrative hearing process they agreed that we could fill in the runnels and the depressions that have formed in the south end where that peninsula has attached. When we went to permit that and with the expansion of the nesting area, we've run ~nto some additional problems in that the State's designated that as an area of critical wildlife concern for the nesting birds. We're continuing to pursue a resolution to that. And Commissioner Norris has been to Tallahassee and has been working closely with Game & Fresh Water Fish Commission, and I think he can elaborate a little bit further on that. My understanding was that a representative of the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 43 Game & Fish Commission would be here tonight, but -- CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS| For his safety, he is not identifying himself. Commissioner Norris, do you want to add to that? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Yes. Just to bring everyone up to date, last Thursday four members of the Florida Game & Fresh Water Fish Commission came to the county offices to discuss with me the Critical Wildlife Area that's set up there. I'm not sure that the upper level starlets in the game commission knew really what the conditions were out there and had really not a lot of firsthand knowledge, it appeared, when I went to Tallahassee to speak to them. But last week they came down, the regional director came down, the local representative that works our area, Mr. Rawson, came down and a couple other gentlemen, and we had a nice discussion wherein we each went over our particular point of view. And I showed them the latest photographs, which we had aerial photographs taken of our beach renourishment project, which were actually made only a month ago, so it's a very fresh photo. And I had previously contacted OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 44 ri, our beach renourishment engineering firm and confirmed with them the fact that Sand Dollar Island is no longer an island but it has become a permanent part of Marco Beach. That is Marco Beach now. It's in no way, shape or fashion an island. The original Critical WtldlifeArea was set up because it was an island and the birds -- one of the criteria was that it was a great place for the birds to nest and be safe from predators because it's an island, which that no longer applies. Predators are free to walk out there at any time. The end result of last week's meeting was by no means a conclusion. It was Just merely to relate to each other our points of view. Later in November, on the 18th and 19th, it appears that I will probably have to go to Tallahassee to again relate some of these facts to them and let the commission decide what they would like to do. There's -- there is a new set of circumstances happening even now and that is that there's a new Sand Dollar Island forming out there, which will do Just like the one that we're working with now. And it'll become an island. And when it's high enough to be above high tide OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 45 wave action, then the birds can nest on it and that'11 be the perfect spot to move the controlled wildlife area to because that was the original conditions that they wanted to do in the first place. Right now there's two extremely divergent points of view involving this matter. One with the wildlife people is that they're not concerned with the recreational beach or the beach goers particularly, but they intend to move these areas wherever the birds decide that they would like to nest and rest and feed. And the other point of view, of course, is that there's a lot of people that would Just say get rid of the ropes, that's the beach, that's our beach, and we don't care about the birds. Well really, I think we can do something that's good for both sides, and that's what I'm going to try to do. I think if we can get the Fish & Game Commission to agree to a certain area and criteria where they will move or will not move those ropes, I think we'll all be in agreement on that. And until such time as this island completes its Journey of washing into shore and fills that lagoon by OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 46 natural forces, there may be a small sea out there, but that's -- that apparently is going to be totally determined by the Florida Game & Fresh Water Fish Commission next month at their meeting. So we'll find out more about that point. are. That's a capsule of where we I think one important thing that is being left out of this discussion in many cases is the fact that oh, 15 years ago at least when Deltona was in the midst of developing Marco Island the State of Florida and a number of environmental agencies sued Deltona for environmental concerns. And the end result in 1982 was that Deltona settled with the State of Florida, the Florida Audubon Association, National Audubon Association, the Naples Conservancy and a number of other environmental groups. They settled and it's a complicated document, but the net result is that the State of Florida agreed to allow Deltona to develop Marco Island the places that you see developed now. And then if you go back out east going towards Goodland, there's a large area on Marco that was taken off of the developable list. And Deltona actually gave up over 15,000 acres of OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 47 land that it had previously been planned to develop in the settlement in return to be able to develop this area. Now, a part of this area -- a major part of this area, of course, is Marco Beach. So in 1982 the State of Florida said, We hereby agree to allow you to develop Marco Beach to your desire in return for these 15,000 acres. And now we have a state agency saying, Well, we've changed our mind, we want this as well. So there's more than meets the eye. It's a very complicated issue. And I hope to be able to at least inject a little bit of common sense to it before we're through. (Applause from the audience.) MRS. SOUTH: Mary Lee South. Commissioner Norris, first of all I want to thank you for your interest in taking care of the birds for us. I really appreciate the time and effort you and Frank have put into this. And Just one thing that I want to say is I'm concerned about this environmental group. I believe in preserving the environment. I love the birds. I love children. I love them all in their places. And I would Just like to see the birds out on the island, and I would OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 48 like to see humans enjoying our island. (Applause from the audience.) MR. CAVANAUGH: My name's Dale Cavanaugh. I'm a resident of East Naples, not a Marco resident, but I should say that I'm a volunteer at the Conservancy for the last several years. The Conservancy volunteers conducted walks at Tiger Tail three mornings during the week this past season. We intend to do three more mornings, maybe four or five, this season. So I have more than a passing interest in what happens at Tiger Tail. I think all of you know that Florida over the years, probably for about the last hundred years, has done a terrible Job in its protection of wildlife. We have read and heard a great deal about the deterioration of the Everglades. The population of wading birds for which Florida is famous around the world is down to about 10% of what it was. We're talking now about a very small habitat area or a shore area for the Lease Tern and a nesting area or resting area for the Black Skimmer. I have read pieces in the paper just recently that OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 49 the nesting pairs of Lease Terns have gone down on Sand Dollar Island, Marco Beach, whatever you want to call it, their home, from about a thousand some years ago down to about a hundred or a hundred and fifty. The numbers are down. I can only speak for the environment or the control of the wildlife area, but at any rate I do say that you can talk all you want about a new island forming, but until the birds decide to move there and until they vacate where they are, that's their home. And if we aren't going to preserve them, you can enjoy going to the beach and being able to watch those birds. But if there aren't any birds to watch and we have driven them out, that's the end of that. They won't be back. I think we need to protect at least the area they have selected and at least keep the predators, the people, out of there. The island may not be an island today, but tomorrow it might be. We all know that. But I don't think we can Just arbitrarily say go somewhere else, because birds don't work that way. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: I think Commissioner Norris stated very effectively the position of the entire OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 50 commission, and that is that we're trying to find a reasonable middle ground here where we can preserve the habitat for the birds but also preserve the areas for the people to utilize the beach. I think there's one thing that we can all assume to be the case and that is there are not going to be any more wildlife areas in Florida. There are only going to be fewer and fewer wildlife areas as population grows. And I think we all recognize that if we don't preserve what little we have left then our children and our grandchildren are going to have even less and less areas where there are wildlife in the present, and that does not bode well for any of us. So I think that the commission's position is we have to find a way to ensure that areas for nesting are protected, but at the same time I think we can accommodate the beach going public. That's the objective of the entire county commission. So when we start talking about these environmental groups, almost pitring the environmental groups as the enemy, I don't think that's appropriate because quite frankly the constituency for the environment is every one OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 51 of us in this room. We don't have us against the environmentalists or the environmentalists against us. Certainly some people are a little more avid in their desire to protect the environment, but I think deep down inside all of us understand the absolute necessity of protecting the environment. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Well said. (Applause from the audience.) MR. BELL: I think that the commission is on the right track seeking for a compromise on Sand Dollar Island. There's foliage growing out there right now and I would expect that sooner or later mangroves will be there and as soon as a couple of raccoons get out there the birds are not going to be very well off. So the Lease Terns will be moving to another place, and I think that probably the best place is the new island that's forming. And if we can keep that reserved for them until such time as it Joins the main land, we'll be doing a greater service that we can for them. MS. McCONNELL: State your name. MR. BELL: My name is Earl Bell. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 52 COMMISSIONER NORRIS| Mr. Bell, as a matter of interest, it's interesting to note that the Fish & Game Com~ission's already established a wildlife area on that emerging Sand Dollar out there even though it overwashes They do already have their ropes up out at this point. there. MR. BELL: I have one question. Commissioner Norris, those of us who are interested in supporting your compromise, who do we write COMMISSIONER NORRIS: You can -- you should write to our state legislative delegation. We have Mary Ellen Hawkins, of course; Senator Dudley; and even though he doesn't handle Marco Island, he's been very helpful with issues that concern Marco Island, is Louis RoJas who you may know, some of you. His district is in Hialeah, and it's one of the most gerrymandered things you ever saw. There's a little skinny neck that comes over here and So he has some of our picks up a piece of East Naples. area. MS. McCONNELL: Or what about Ben Rowe? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Ben Rowe is -- MR. F. BLANCHARD: Commissioner, don't you think OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 53 that the Florida Game & Fresh Water Fish Commission, 620 South Meridian, Tallahassee, 32399 -- COMMISSIONERNORRIS: Yes, I do, Mr. Blanchard, but you didn't give me an opportunity to go ahead and say that. Anybody who wants that address for the Fish & Game Commission certainly is welcome to call Mr. Blanchard. He's more than happy to supply you with that. MS. McCONNELL: Or the Chamber. I have it as well. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: And the Chamber. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: All right. Why don't we have one more speaker on the Sand Dollar Island issue and then we'll move on to the next issue. MR. DYER: My name is Robert Dyer. I am a resident of 320 Seaview Court, which is not located in East Naples but which looks right down on the slime holes. I was going to be very, very unemotional about this until the other gentleman gave the birds' view. Now we're going to get the people's view. We have approximately 30 people here from the condominiums that stand right looking down at these particular -- at this particular Sand Dollar Island, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 54 which could also be called maybe Slime Dollar Island. (Applause from the audience.) MR. DYER: In any event, I'm going to read quickly a letter that our condominium association has written to the governor. And the reason that we have written this as long as -- as well as a letter to the Fish & Game Commission, is to show our position. And our position consists of 300 and -- 430 people in our units and 430 people from Towers III and IV which also are contiguous to this particular area. And one of the reasons that we are concerned about this is to impress not only on Commissioner Norris but the other four commissioners that there are some problems there for the people and not only for the environmentalists and the birds. Here's what we wrote, and it'll summarize our position. "The recreational value of the Marco Island Beach has had drastic adverse valuation since the placement of 1993 C.W.A. in front of the South Seas property." the one that went in April of 1993. "This area and the entire beach is the prime tourist and owner asset of our splendid island. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL That's Millions 33962 55 of dollars have been invested by our owners and millions more are spent by tourists and tenters who are drawn hare by the reputation of our splendid beach. "Our beach is a hundred percent built out and funded by us. There was no beach until paid for and built by beach-front owners. Wa are sympathetic to the wildlife and the environment, but not at the cost of creation of mud holes, slime and unhealthy pools of stagnant water and tidal pools in the name of wildlife preservation." This area is not a pristine nature preserve. Rookery is up the road. Romano -- Cape Romano is down to the south. Ten Thousand Islands are available. "There are 360 units who are in close proximity to this new C.W.A. who were here long before the 1993 C.W.A. was created without notice or hearing. To walk down our beach from the south to the north will show a well-kept sand beach until you arrive on the new 1993 C.W.A. "Our reputation and property values are at stake. To say this area on the 1993 C.W.A. is the last and only place for birds or turtles to -- to rope, to nest, is absurd." As a matter of fact, the digression even on our OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 56 beach that was created two or three years ago, there are areas for turtles to nest leave alone being down by Sand Dollar Island. "Our reputation and property values are at stake. To say it's the last and only place for birds or turtles is absurd. Wildlife areas, supervised or not, are abundant in our area. To place such an area in our front yard does not play fair with our taxpayers and owners." Thank you. (Applause from the audience.) MS. VERONESSY: Hi. I'm sorry, you said the last one. I'm Sally Veronessy, and I'm Just kind of representing the families in the neighborhood of Tiger Tail Beach and also the public, I guess, that uses Tiger Tail Beach. And I know some of you saw me when we had the problem of all the weeds on the beach in trying to get our public beach back and all that we went through during that. And the ones that are new to the commission, I have a date-by-date scenario of what went on and all the negotiations that took place to get to that, to get our public beach back. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 I Just want to remind you that we pay very dearly in a cost to the county to get Tiger Tail back. We had to -- the DER, who is the final one we went through after three years, wanted a hundred thousand dollars to -- in mitigation to replant the area in the Rookery Bay area. The commission was able to negotiate with them and they did get that planted so the environmentalists got what they asked for, and also the neighbors in the area replanted the dunes area. You know, we've done a lot and many people here have worked hard on that issue and we have the beach back and we have a beautiful sand beach and we thank you all. We ask you to please keep it that way. MS. McCONNELL: Actually, I was referring to the gentleman right behind you as the final comment, so, sir, please. MR. McGINNESSY: Thank you. I'm not Mark Rosen, by the way, so please don't attack me. My name is Jim McGinnessy. I work for the Conservancy at the Briggs Nature Center, which is in Rookery Bay Reserve. I would first like to start out by asking the commissioners how many of you have been down onto the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 58 area in question? We know Mr. Norris has been there. Have all of you been down there or not? Okay. Well, -- CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: I've been there several times. MR. McGINNESSY: You're missing an awesome opportunity to see the most unique beaches in Collier County. I think regardless of whether you're for the birds, for the natural area or not, it is not like any other beach in Collier County. It is different, and that is very special. And the Conservancy feels so strongly that for the past 20 years we've been taking school children down there, thousands of them every year, to teach them about our beaches. And there's a reason why we don't go to Naples. You don't catch any fish there to show them. You don't see any birds there. So it's Just not nearly as special as Tiger Tail Beach is. Also, it's unfortunate it's been turned into a man versus bird issue. I appreciate your comments, Mr. Norris, on trying to find a compromise. It is a unique beach. We should look at it more as an asset than a liability. It's a very special place, and the OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 II II II I I I I ' IIII I IIII I 59 Conservancy feels very strongly that these birds are there for a reason and the reason is there's nowhere else for them to go and they are unique birds that -- (Boos from the audience.) MS. McCONNELL: We need to move on to the next issue. Thank you for your comments. We need to move on. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS| All right, that is the last -- MS. McCONNELL: Did you turn off my microphone? We need to move on to the next issue, please. MR. McGINNESSY= Well, I believe I have five minutes, and I don't think I've -- MS. McCONNELL: I'm sorry. I thought you were complete. MR. McGINNESSY: No, I was interrupted. Thank you. The -- excuse me, sir. I would just like to go on record that the Conservancy is for protecting the Critical Wildlife Area for the birds, but we're -- excuse me, sir. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Ladies and gentlemen, if you would please keep it down so we can hear the speaker. Mr. Blanchard, if you'd let him finish his comment and then we'll move on to the next topic. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 6O MR. McGINNESSY: I'd Just like to go on record that the Conservancy is for protecting the birds on Tiger Tail Beach as an existing area. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Are you officially representing the Conservancy in that? MR. McGINNESSY: Yes, I am. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: And how do you reconcile that with the sign-off of the Deltona settlement agreement? MR. McGINNESSY: That was 20 years ago, sir. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: No, it wasn't. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Let's move on to the next issue. We only have 15 minutes to cover the next two topics. Let's move on. Ms. McConne117 MS. McCONNELL: The next item on the agenda is the planning process for potable water for Marco Island. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Mr. Newman, I think, was going to comment on that. I'm not sure why that's on the agenda, but Mr. Newman if you've got a few comments then we'll open it up. MR. NEWMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, although the county utilities division is not solely responsible for OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 61 providing potable water to Marco Island, we have for a number of years been keenly interested in the developments down here and also assisted S.S.U. in trying to implement some of the improvements that I hope since our last meeting here have been beneficial to the residents down here. Some of the current things that are underway, and I wish this meeting had taken place tomorrow night because we do have a meeting set up tomorrow with S.S.U. to discuss possible issues that may help resolve some of your future and long-term water needs on the island. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: The water pressure on the island must be good. Everybody's leaving. PER. NEWMAN: It's a much less hostile crew than the last time we were here. MS. McCONNELL: MR. WEST: Yes. Sir. I'm Dava West, and I'm spaaking for Dick Burdman who's a Marco Islander who spent an awful lot of time on the water issue and sewer problems of Marco Island. And if you talked to Dick and had an opportunity to do so, you will find that all other issues that we have OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 62 on Marco Island pale to the problem we have with the water problem. I would Just like to -- I've learned a lot of things the last week or so talking to Dick. He couldn't be here. And I'a Just like to pass on to you what our problems are because we really have a serious crisis here and it is -- it is major. First of all, Minnesota Power had tremendous financial problems up north and so they decided that to diversify they would buy utilities in the south, in Florida. And mainly the utilities they purchased were those that were created by developments like Deltona's and then they would Just take them over and use them as a cash source for their holding company, Minnesota Power. And S.S.U. is a part of the Minnesota Power subsidiary. So S.S.U. came to Marco and did a slide show and told us about this R.O. plant and since we have really no representation in this area or negotiation we more or less went along with it because there was no one to negotiate for Marco Island. So what we have now is a reverse osmosis plant which appears to be absolutely the worst thing that we OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 63 should have on this island. And the reason is that the type of water on Marco Island has a very high salt content and therefore they have to get this water very pure. Well, when they pump this pure water into our 30 year old pipes, it attracts all kinds of rust and Junk and everything else. So the only way that they can mitigate this problem is to take the water from the Collier pits which are now -- we're going to lose that, and mix it in with this pure water. And it is not a precise process, it's like a witch's brew. And to make it meet minimum standards, minimum standards, they have to put a lot of chemicals in this water. And the rumor is that these chemicals are so strong they may be deteriorating the pipes. Now, the question you have to ask yourself is what is it doing to our stomachsT' And it is a very serious problem. So here is our situation. MS. McCONNELL: You have one more minute, sir. MR. WEST: Okay. Well, this is -- I tell you, this is very important to everybody here. This is not a topic that's going to go away. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 64 So we do not have -- our water is regulated by the Public Service Commission. The Public Service Commission of Florida is primarily interested in large electric utilities and in telephone companies. The number of little dinky water companies that they're involved with in Florida are minimal. So we are sort of an afterthought. So this reverse osmosis plant was built at tremendous overruns and the S.S.U. - and I'm not saying that they're bad people, but it is not a good situation - went to the Public Service Commission. Many of you came to these hearings last spring, and they got exactly what they wanted. And so we now pay very high water bills. We've been talking to the Marriott Hotel. The Marriott Hotel, which is a flagship hotel on Marco Island, pays 50% more water expense than comparable -- than the average expense for other Marriott hotels. MS. McCONNELL: I hate to interrupt you, but if you could Just wrap it up, ~a~'~e your final comment or if there's a question for the commission. MR. WEST: Here's what we need. We're out there hanging in the wind. We have the Public Service OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 65 Commission, who has really no interest in regulating water and sewer for us, setting the rates. We have a company, S.S.U., which is controlled by Minnesota Power, which it uses as a cash cow. We really need a local citizen group of business people and citizens here on Marco Island to get authority to go in and negotiate water and sewer planning for not only now but for in the future. And one further comment. My understanding is that S.S.U. is very close to making a deal with Naples Water to take over because the Collier pits are closing. Now the question that we have is one, who negotiated this? Number two, what is the cost to Marco Island? We are already paying huge water rates. What is this additional cost going to be, and how is it going to affect us? And what we would like to see is to get a group of local Marco Island people or work with the county to clearly negotiate for the long-term for this island, because at the rate this is going this is a disaster in process. (Applause from the audience.) OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: MR. NEWMAN: concerns there. 66 Mr. Newman. Sir, I'd like to respond to your The concern you have about the nature of area from the regional the water coming out of the R.O. plant, currently the county, along with the county water sewer district operates the Goodland Water Sewer District and we buy potable water from S.S.U. because we do not currently have lines capable of serving that water system. We test that water in our laboratory. The water meets all of the -- as far as the chemical composition, it meets the federal guidelines and the state guidelines for the DER. If it does not -- this is for everybody's information. Any time that a utility fails to meet the standards, the MCLs, which are the Maximum Contaminant Levels for any particular particulate that could be in the water, they're required to notify you. Depending on the nature of the violation, it can range anywhere from a notice on your bill to newspaper and TVadvertisements. The State sets these in tiers, Tier I, Tier II, Tier III, depending on the severity of the violation. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 ............... :.'__;.....;.:_..::"_:'..; .................................... 67 The concern you have about the water being very pure and potentially damaging the inside of your system, it's a very easy explanation. It can be remedied. And the remedy that they're using or attempting to use is feasible and actually it will save you money in the long run. Basically, when you run water through an R.O. facility you remove all the minerals that are within that. Marco, up until the time that this facility came on line, was being served strictly through a conventional lime softening facility. That faoility by its inherent nature puts down a coating ~f calcium carbonate. It's a thin egg shell coating on the interior of your pipes to isolate the water from coming in contact with the pipe material. This also prevents that material from contaminating the water source or leaching into the form of rust. And that is the purpose behind that. Now, when you start to add R.O. water, which is a very - like you said, very pure water - it has no minerals in it. Basically what happens is it starts to take the coating and dissolve it and starts putting that calcium carbonate back into the solution to try to reach OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 68 15 an equilibrium with the material that's in the pipe. That's a normal occurrence. It can happen Just by the lime softening facility with their pH range which is very -- over the course of a couple days, the same effect can happen. You may have experienced cloudy water before. More than likely, that was caused because of an upset at the facility and the pH went from a high to a low and it pulled some of this calcium carbonate off the pipes. That material is Just calcium. It has no health effects whatsoever for the consumer. And no, it doesn't look very nice. It looks like you have some cloudiness in your water, but there's no health effects. That's strictly calcium. Like I said, the county does test that water and the water is in compliance. Your concern or your statement that S.S.U. is currently looking at the City of Naples is correct. In fact, the meeting that we have tomorrow set with them tomorrow will focus on that issue. They have approached both the county and the city and are looking to acquire an additional raw water source to supplement the existing conventional lime softening OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 69 plant once the lease on the Collier pit at the corner of 41 and 951 expires. Their hope is to purchase raw water, not finished water. Currently the county has an agreement with S.S.U. to furnish them one million gallons a day of finish water to their current pit at the intersection of 951 and 41. They are hoping to put in a long-term -- they're looking ahead. They're trying to establish a raw water source that will be available for the next 15 or 20 years, and they're really attempting to do some long-term planning here. You are on an island. It is difficult to find very cheap or very cost effective water treatment on an island surrounded by the ocean. You are going to have to look to the mainland, to either the county or to the City of Naples, or having to develop your own raw water well field. The other option to that, and it's a much more expensive one, is to continue to build R.O. facilities. S.S.U. would find it very easy, probably, to continue building R.O. facilities and slowly phase out the lime softening facility they currently have. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 70 R.O. facilities are much more expensive to operate. I'm sure most of you through the meetings that you've had with S.S.U. during the past few years they've made you aware of that, and a lot of their requests for increases in rates are based on that. So they're attempting to hold the rates down. MR. SOUTH: Just a quick -- CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Commissioner Constantine. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Just to quickly address this, you mentioned the PSC and a lack of responsiveness of the Public Service Commission. I live in Golden Gate and a couple years ago we went through virtually an identical thing. Our rates went up roughly 100%. And you're absolutely right, the Public Service Commission is not particularly responsive to the local residents. I think that's one of the areas in the situation you are in. Any time you are on a private utility unfortunately you're at the mercy of the PSC. There are some very obvious changes that could be made on the state level with the PSC. They are an appointed board right now up until I think it was 1974. They were elected state-wide. And as a result, they're much more OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, PL 33962 71 responsive when they come in locally and give a lot closer listen to the needs of the residents. I would suggest one of the things we mentioned earlier, writing in to your state representatives and state senators and sharing with them the necessity to change the whole format of the PSC. The way the public has an input into private utility matters like this is terribly flawed. And i've worked with Jack Shreves, the public counsel up in Tallahassee for all the residents of the State of Florida. I've worked with him on a couple of cases, and the whole system seems to be tilted against you and me and in favor of the utilities themselves. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Mr. Cuyler, let me ask you a question and I have a comment to make. In reference to rates set in Florida, the Public Service Commission essentially sets the rates for utilities whether they're electric utilities, telephone, whatever, including water and sewer facilities. However, I believe under Florida Statutes the county commission can take over rate setting. As a matter of fact, we set rates for utilities for a number OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 72 Of years before we turned that over to the PSC. I presume that still is the law, that we can take over that rate setting function. Is that correct? MR. CUYLER: That is generally correct, yes. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: It seems to me -- COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I can answer that a little more specifically, I think. I looked at that on behalf of the other case a couple years ago Just in when we waived that right, and I think it was 1988 -- Mike, you may know better than I, but it was somewhere in the late 'SOs. We waived it for a specific period of time. We turned it over to the state. And I have talked to Senator Dudley about trying to get that back and they would be happy to do it, but I know there's a specific time. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: If the county is setting rates and was to turn the jurisdiction setting rates over to the Public Service Commission, when that rate setting authority is turned over, it's turned over for a minimum period, I think, of two years. And that's the state law. We've well exceeded whatever minimum time period we would have to do that. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 73 The reason I raise the question, it seems to me that there are a couple solutions to two different issues on Marco Island. One is the rates that you're paying and the other is the quantity of water you're getting, the quality of the water. It would be conceivable, and I'm not suggesting that we do this, but it's something perhaps we need to think about, and that is should the county commission take over the rate setting authority for public utilities in Collier County? The reason that we gave that Jurisdiction back to the Public Service Commission was simply that we were in the business of acquiring publicly owned utilities and we felt from a legal standpoint that it put us in a very serious conflict of interest when we were setting the rates for the utilities and at the same time we're trying to condemn the utilities to take them. That would give the utilities the argument that we were violating their civil rights by setting rates low in order to get a lower price in the condemnation of the utilities. So we have an issue that could be resolved in terms of whether we should take over those rates. Second issue is what is in the long-term best OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 74 CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Volpe did you -- COMMISSIONER VOLPE: Well, I think Commissioner Just very briefly. Water and sewer is in fact a critical issue for all of us in the entire county and it's more critical for the Marco Islanders. And Commissioner Saunders is correct on not only the rate settings but about two years ago we did a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 interest of the citizens of Marco Island? Is it the long-term best interest to leave the utility in the hands of S.S.U., or is it in the long-term benefit of the residents of Marco Island or Collier County to take over the system and to run it as a government-owned system? That all boils down to one word, and that's money. So we have a lot of issues that perhaps we need to begin to evaluate, re-evaluate, in terms of setting rates; in terms of should we acquire the system from S.S.U. and bite that bullet because it will be a very expensive bullet for the residents of Marco Island. Perhaps we need to start looking at that. MS. McCONNELL: As anticipated, we figured we would lose our audience about seven o'clock and that's slowly beginning to happen, so -- white paper and looked at the local government actually acquiring the Golden Gate utility system and also Marco Island utility system. And I agree that perhaps it is something we should at least look at because S.S.U. is looking for some long-term solutions. And I'm going on Monday for a deposition and I think you're going on Tuesday in connection with the lawsuit that's been brought having to do with where S.S.U. will be able to try to establish another raw water source. So it's -- it is a critical issue for the Marco Islanders. MS. McCONNELL: Thank you. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We have time for Just one or two speakers and then we'll -- MS. McCONNELL: One. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: One speaker. MS. McCONNELL: One. MR. CLAYTON: I would Just like to mention the last time I checked was several years ago, but fluoride's not added to the water of Marco Island and the Marco Island community is getting more and more children here and it's not that expensive. I think this is an item you should OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 76 ask S.S.U. to provide for our drinking water. I think the benefit really has a plausible argument. CHAIRMAN SAUNDERS: Thank you. I'd like to thank Judi again for setting up this meeting. I'd like to thank Mr. Blanchard for running the microphone for us. And also, for the people here at the Marriott for permitting us to use their facility. This was a very good opportunity for us to hear from you. And I want to thank all of you in the audience for coming out and sharing your views with us. We look forward to being out here again sometime in the not too distant future. (Proceedings concluded at 7:05 p.m.) OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962 77 STATE OF FLORIDA ) COUNTY OF COLLIER ) I, Christina J. Reynoldson, RPR and Deputy Official Court Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the date and place as stated in the caption hereto on Page i hereof; that the foregoing computer-assisted transcription, consisting of pages numbered 3 through 76, inclusive, is a true record of my Stenograph notes taken at said proceedings. Dated this 2nd day of November, 1993. Chri~t~n~~oi~son, CP, RPR 20th Judicial Circuit STATE OF FLORIDA COUNTY OF COLLIER The foregoing certificate was acknowledged before me this 2nd day of November, 1993, by Christina J. Reynoldson, who is personally known to me. Notary Public State of Florida at Large OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS, COLLIER COUNTY, NAPLES, FL 33962