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CEB Minutes 01/25/1996 1996 Code Enforcement Board January 25, 1996 January 25, 1996 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CODE ENFORCEMENT BOARD OF COLLIER COUNTY, FLORIDA NAPLES, FLORIDA, January 25, 1996 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Code Enforcement Board of Collier County met on this date at 8:34 a.m. in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRPERSON: James D. Allen M. Jean Rawson Charles M. Andrews Mireya Louviere Louis F. Laforet Richard McCormick ABSENT: Celia Deifik ALSO PRESENT: Michael Pettit, Assistant County Attorney Maria E. Cruz, Code Enforcement Dave Hedrich, Code Enforcement Linda Sullivan, Code Enforcement Page 1 CODE ENFORCEMENT BOARD OF COLLIER COUNTY, FLORIDA AMENDED A~ENDA Date: January 25, 1996 at 8:30 o'clock A'.M. Location: Collier County Government Center, Admn. Bldg, 3rd Floor NOTE: ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THE TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. NEITHER COLLIER COUNTY NOR THE CODE ENFORCEMENT BOARD SHALL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVIDING THIS RECORD. 1 . ROLL CALL 2. APPROVAL OF AGENDA 3 . APPROVAL OF MINUTES November 30, 1995 and December 15, 1995 4. PUBLIC HEARINGS A. B. C. BCC VB. Micaela and Pedro G. Nunez - BCC VB. Clara A. Ayala BCC VB. Eva M. Silva CEB No. 96-001 CEB NO. 96-002 CEB NO. 96-003 5 . NEW BUSINESS N/A 6. OLD BUSINESS A. BCC vs. First Bank of Immokalee - CEB 94-001 7 . REPORTS N/A 81. NEXT MEETING DATE February 22, 1996 9 ~ ADJOURN January 25, 1996 CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Good morning. We'd like to call to order the January 25 meeting, 1996, of the Collier County Code Enforcement Board. Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this board will need a record of the proceedings pertaining thereto and, therefore, may need to ensure that a verbatim record of the proceedings is made which record includes the testimony and evidence upon which the appeal is to be based. Neither Collier County nor the Code Enforcement Board shall be responsible for providing this record. We'll open this morning with the roll call beginning at the left. MR. MCCORMICK: Richard McCormick. MR. LAFORET: Louis Laforet. MS. RAWSON: Jean Rawson. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Jim Allen. MS. LOUVIERE: Mireya Louviere. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: And we need to show for the record that Miss Celia Deifik has called in, and she should be excused. We'll go down to the approval of the agenda. MS. CRUZ: Mr. Chairman, for the record, my name is Maria Cruz. There is a deletion in the agenda under public hearings. Item C should be removed. That case is in compliance at this time. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Show that item B? B? MS. CRUZ: Item C. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: C. I'm sorry. (Mr. Andrews entered the boardroom.) CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: We should show for the record that Mr. Andrews is now here. We'll go now to approval of minutes from November 30 and December 15. Do we have any comments on the minutes from anyone from staff? MS. CRUZ: No comments from staff. MS. LOUVIERE: I'll make a motion we approve the minutes as they stand. MS. RAWSON: I second. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: We have a motion and a second. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. The minutes carry unanimously. We'll go down to our public hearings. MS. CRUZ: Mr. Chairman, the -- the first public hearing is Board of County Commissioners versus Micaela and Pedro G. Nunez, case number CEB number 96-001. 1 would like to make a correction on the package that's been provided to the board. Page two, item -- item three, item four should read -- The address should be 1421, not 1471. Mr. And Mrs. NUD.ez are here ,are owners of the record of property located at 1421 North Apple Street, Immokalee, Florida, more particularly described as Eden Park, block two, lot 12. Mr. And Mrs. Nunez are before this board for unlawfully storing a mobile home without first obtaining the proper building permits allegedly in violation of Collier County Ordinance 91-102 as amended, section 2.7.6, paragraph one and five. I would like to make -- let the record show that Mr. And Mrs. Nunez are present at this time. Mr. Nunez, wlOt.:ild YOll. please come up to the -- Mr. Nunez, I have prepared a composite exhibit. At this time I would :n.iJlce to present this exhibit into evidence. MR. PB'nIT: Ms. Cruz, may I interrupt? MS. CRUZ: Yes. MR. PETTIT: I'd like to have Mr. Nunez sworn by the court Page 2 January 25, 1996 reporter, please. THEREUPON, PEDRO G. NUNEZ, a witness, having been first duly sworn, upon his oath, testified as follows: MS. CRUZ: Please state your name for the record. MR. NUNEZ: Pedro G. Nunez. MS. CRUZ: Mr. Nunez, I repeat, I have prepared a package, and I would like to present this package into evidence: Did you have any objection in doing so? MR. NUNEZ: No, I don't. MS. CRUZ: I request that this composite be admitted into evidence marked Composite Exhibit A. MS. RAWSON: So moved. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: We have a motion. MS. RAWSON: Yes. I move that we introduce it into evidence. MR. ANDREWS: Second. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: We have a second. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. Carries unanimously. MS. CRUZ: Mr. Chairman, Code Enforcement Investigator Dave Hedrich conducted several investigations at the subject location resulting in the previous-mentioned violation. During these inspections on August 14, '95, Mr. Hedrich spoke with the property owner, Mr. Nunez, and advised him of the existing violation and the permit will be necessary in order to bring this property into compliance. A notice of violation was mailed to the property owners. This notice of violation requested a compliance date of September 30 of '95. This notice was mailed certified which it was returned marked unclaimed to the code enforcement department. The last inspection was done on Septe~r -- I'm sorry -- on January 24, resulting in -- in -- violations still exist. At this time I would like to call Mr. Hedrich to the stand, please. I need him to be sworn in. THEREUPON, DAVID HEDRICH, a witness, having been first duly sworn, upon his oath, testified as follows: MS. CRUZ: Please state your name for the record. MR. HEDRICH: Dave Hedrich, Collier County Code Enforcement investigator. MS. CRUZ: Thank you. Mr. Hedrich, would you please advise this board of your findings during your visits to the subject property. MR. HEDRICH: During the investigation if I could have the copy of the record -- MS. CRUZ: (Tendering document) MR. HEDRICH: Upon my first visit to the subject propc~ty last year, a violation was seen in the rear yard behind the house. Placement of a red tag and photographs were taken at the time showing the violation. Soon after I returned. The mobile home had been moved from behind the house to the side of the property and anchors and tie-downs had been put in place. No permits on record show that the mobile home was permitted to be there. A violation continued to exist. We sent out the notice of violation. It came back. And as Page 3 January 25, 1996 of this date, we still have no permits that were applied for for the keeping in placement of the mobile home on that property. MS. CRUZ: Is the mobile home occupied? MR. HEDRICH: It is not occupied at this time. MS. CRUZ: Are the utilities hooked up? MR. HEDRICH: No, they're not. MS. CRUZ: Have you had a chance to speak with Mr. Nunez lately? MR. HEDRICH: I spoke with Mrs. Nunez yesterday about this, and she made it clear to me that they had a request they would like to bring to the board at this time. MS. CRUZ: Thank you. MR. MCCORMICK: Mr. Hedrich, is this in the side yard of a residential lot? MR. HEDRICH: Yes. The area in question is zoned V.R., village residential, but there is a house on the property already at this time, and the mobile home does sit off to the side of that house. MS. LOUVIERE: What's the zoning on it? MR. HEDRICH: V.R. MS. LOUVIERE: V.R.? MR. HEDRICH: Yes. MS. LOUVIERE: It has a structure sitting on it already? MR. HEDRICH: Yes. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. Thanks. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Mr. Nunez. MR. NUNEZ: Well, we -- we -- we got in contact with an officer in Immokalee there, and they will want to -- told us to go ahead and --We had the place surveyed, and they told us to move -- to move the trailer to its proper location on the next lot and -- but we never heard anything from anybody else. So we wanted to make it legally, but we just never got around to it. We don't work from the Immokalee office there. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. So can I ask you a question? Is this -- this is an allowable use there. I mean, he's allowed to keep his trailer there if he goes and gets a building permit? MR. HEDRICH: It's our belief it could possibly be done through the building department with the proper permits and possibly a variance. I'm not sure at this time if it's going to require one. That's going to be up to the building department. MS. LOUVIERE: It's going to be up to the building department. You don't even know if he can put a trailer and a house on the same lot. MR. NUNEZ: It's two different lots. MS. LOUVIERE: It's two different lots. MR. NUNEZ: Yes. MR. HEDRICH: They were deeded together if I'm correct. ~t's -- It's like a double-wide. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. How much is it to get a building pennit for this use cost? Do you have any idea how long it would take him".? MR. HEDRICH: They're looking at impact fees and permit fees. It could run several thousand dollars. It's not like we're talking about a storage structure. This is another living structure. MS. LOUVIERE: So we're looking at maybe a couple Page 4 January 25, 1996 thousand dollars. And do you have any idea how long it would take for him to obtain this permit? MR. HEDRICH: Once they have the proper paperwork in order, the permit could be issued seven to ten days. MS. LOUVIERE: Seven to ten days. It's just 'a matter of getting it. Okay. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Nunez, are you planning on renting or using that trailer? MR. NUNEZ: Actually, we wanted to fix it up and move into it ourselves. MR. ANDREWS: Move in to it? MR. NUNEZ: That would be in the long run. Yes. MS. LOUVIERE: So basically what -- what has happened here is that in order for you to be able to keep that trailer there and live in that trailer, you're going to have to go and try to get the permits for it. Okay? And you -- I know you said you haven't gotten around to it, but they're going to -- Our laws in Collier County say that if you do not get a permit for this trailer, that you will have to move it. MR. NUNEZ: Yes. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay? this case with him? MR. HEDRICH: The case originally begun in August, I believe, last year. MS. CRUZ: August '95. MS. LOUVIERE: So you've, like, a year -- not -- Well, not quite but -- MR. HEDRICH: Six months now. MS. LOUVIERE: Yeah. MR. NUNEZ: When we first started on this, everything was flooded out, and there was not much we could do. MS. RAWSON: Mr. Nunez, do you intend to go apply for a permit? MR . NUNEZ: MS. RAWSON: that? MR. NUNEZ: MS. RAWSON: MR . NUNEZ: something. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Do you think -- Mr. Nunez, do you think you can have a permit -- I mean, let's say, for instance, in theory, if the county -- if you can go in let's say next week and apply for the permit and the county is going to take a week to ten days to give you a permit, that's effectively a two-and-a-half-week period. Do you feel comfortable that you can have a permit within 30 days? MR. NUNEZ: In 30 days, I believe so. ~IRPERSON ALLEN: Because the way I'm leaning is that you know, I'm trying to be -- looking at this both ways. You've had six months to do something. That's -- That's a pretty long time. So, you know, I really -- I really feel like we need to say something is going to -- If you don't get it within 30 days, something is going to have to begin. You know, six months is a long enough time. This How long have you been working on Yes, I do. Do you know when you're planning to do I can next week if the -- Do you have the money? I can probably go ahead and borrow money or Page 5 January 25, 1996 is not a very hard process for -- to get a permit for a trailer. MR. NUNEZ: 30 -- I believe in 30 days we can have something. MS. LOUVIERE: And you really want to go and get that permit because otherwise if you don't, when you come back here, then we'll start fining you, and it's going to cost you money. So, you know~ it's just going to get worse for you. So you need to act on it. MR. NUNEZ: Yes. I would like to get the permit. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. MS. RAWSON: I make a motion that we continue this case until the next meeting which I think is the 22nd but that we have Mr. Nunez's case called up again, and then staff can tell us if he's gotten the permit. If he hasn't gotten the permit, put it back on the agenda for the order of fines. MR. PETTIT: May-- MR. ANDREWS: I second that motion. MR. PETTIT: May I ask Mr. Nunez a couple of questions before you go further on the motion? Mr. Nunez, you -- you are agreeing or not contesting that you are in violation of the -- MR. NUNEZ: I am not contesting that. MR. PETTIT: Okay. So you're not contesting that. And you also agree that you had notice and an opportunity to get the permit previously? MR. NUNEZ: Yes. But, like I say, we had been -- We don't know -- I don't know the laws as far as building codes or whatever. Since we had gotten in contact with an officer in Immokalee and they told us to get the place surveyed and move the trailer to its proper place in the next lot, we did all of that, and we never heard anything else. Like I say, I'm -- I know -- I know I was in violation, but I just didn't know MS. LOUVIERE: What to do? MR. ANDREWS: Who -- Who did you talk to at Immokalee? Who did you talk to at Immokalee? MR. NUNEZ: My wife did. MRS. NUNEZ: Lou -- Lou -- I don't know her last name. Alimar? MR. NUNEZ: Alimar. MR. ANDREWS: What's her position? What's her -- What's her job? MRS. NUNEZ: I don't know. She works there at the MR. HEDRICH: Alimar is the building department representative in our branch office in Immokalee. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Excuse me. I'd like to ask Mr. Hedrich a question. Have you explained to Mr. Nunez what the process is originally? MR. HEDRICH: No~ Not to Mr. Nunez personally. The -- '1'h",,", trip they're talking about they went down to see Alimar just a conpl~ of days ago in the Immokalee office, and that's when she explaaned to him just the things they need before they can apply for the p~rmit, and that's why they're talking about the survey and so forth an.d so on. MS. LOUVIERE: Well, I mean, we still have a motion for -- to giv~ a continuance of, I believe, 30 days and it just -- it Page 6 January 25, 1996 appears that he -- he seems -- he wants to comply. I'm -- I'm a little bit concerned about the language barrier or maybe the procedure. He seems to be confused as to what needs to be done. So maybe somebody in staff could maybe walk him or assist him as to what needs to be done for him to actually get the permits. I'm -~ I'm sure somebody in developmental services -- MR. HEDRICH: That's what Alimar has done. She has MS. LOUVIERE: She has? Does she speak Spanish? MR. HEDRICH: Yes. Fully. . MS. LOUVIERE: Oh, she does? MR. HEDRICH: Yes. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. Alimar speaks Spanish. MRS. NUNEZ: This is all we have from the surveyor. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. But Alimar speaks Spanish, so Alimar should be able to continue -- She should -- If you go and ask her, she should help -- I'm sure she -- I'm sure she'll be more than willing to help you. Doesn't she speak Spanish? MR. NUNEZ: Yes, she does. MS, LOUVIERE: Yes or no? MR. NUNEZ: Yes. MRS. NUNEZ; Well, yes, but not -- I mean, she speaks more perfect English than Spanish. MS. LOUVIERE: Well, but you still understood her; right? MRS. NUNEZ: Yeah. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. MRS. NUNEZ: A little bit. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. MR. LAFORBT: Mr. Nunez, what do you intend to do with this trailer? MR. NUNEZ: Fix it up and -- and -- and -- and move into it. MR. LAFOBET: And rent it? MR. NUNEZ: Live in it. MR. LAFORET: You're going to live in it? MR. NUNEZ: Yes. MR. LAFORET: What are you going to do with the house you have? MR. NUNEZ: Well, I have two sons, and probably one can move in there. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: We have a motion and a second. MR. PETTIT: One -- One final question now for Mr. Hedrich just -- The record is a little unclear. The trailer is now located at 1421 North Apple Street in Immokalee? MR. HEDRICH: Correct. MR. PETTIT: Mr. Nunez, is that the lot you -- You own 1!hJ;.t lot? MR. NUNEZ: Yes, I do. MR. PETTIT: Is that the lot you moved it to when you ~re told to move the trailer from the lot it was originally positioned on? MR. NUNEZ: Yes, sir. MS. SULLIVAN: Mr. Chairman, staff -- staff had a recommendation that because this case has been going on since August, Page 7 January 25, 1996 that a $100 fine be imposed, and that if the Nunezes don't get a permit within 30 days, the order would reflect that at the end of 30 days if there is no permit obtained, they would have 30 days in which to remove the structure. MS. LOUVIERE: I appreciate staff's recommendation, but I think it's -- I feel it's excessive at this time. I would like to give them 30 days to go ahead and get it together, and I like -- I like Jean's motion. MR. PETTIT: To clarify that, Ms. Rawson, were you indicating that there was going to be a finding that there was a violation as part of your -- MS. RAWSON: My motion didn't call for a finding. MR. PETTIT: Okay. MS. RAWSON: My motion just called for a continuance until February 22 at which time I would like to see this back on the docket. And if they have not complied at that time, we'll have a finding and start the fines, but I'd like to give them until the 22nd of February to comply. MR. ANDREWS: You understand that? MR. NUNEZ: Yes. We understand that. MRS. NUNEZ: Yes, sir. MR. LAFORET: Is this counsel representing us? MS. RAWSON: Yes, he is. MR. LAFORET: Counsel, I'd like to ask you a question. Can they get a permit in 30 days? MR. PETTIT: I don't know the answer to that. I know there's an expedited permit process. It would seem for this kind of a -- of a structure, that they might be able to avail themselves of that, but even that process -- I'm not sure how quickly it works. I __ I guess I would defer to staff. I also know with respect to impact fees that there is a financing process that staff may want to advise them about if there's a -- if there's a monetary problem. Insofar as being able to pay an impact fee up front before they get the permit, those impacts fees could be financed under our present impact fee ordinance. MR. LAFORET: What would be your comments if I were to propose an amendment to this motion to the effect that he shall produce satisfactory evidence that he has pursued the permit process at the next hearing. What I'm thinking about, if he hasn't gotten the permit through no fault of his own and due process takes longer than 30 days, it would be a rather unfair motion. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Mr. Laforet, okay, this is -- this -- that's a very simple process. That's -- That's something I've got an objection to right now. I'm not trying to muddy the waters. This process is real simple. Okay? I mean, the county processes hundreds of thousands of permits every day or every year. Getting a trailer permit is the easiest thing in the world. All right? We're not talking about anything that's hard. It's a very simple process. I've got. a problem with the fact that this has been going on for six months. I mean -- I mean, staff works very diligently to helping people. Okay? I mean, I've got -- In just the time table that they didn't even go to see Alimar until, like, last week -- you know, this is like the 11th hour. That's -- That's where I feel this situation January 25, 1996 From reading the packet here, Mr. Hedrich has been there. It's been red-tagged. They were told to move, what to do. You know, Alimar's office -- Collier County's office in Immokalee is, you know, a couple blocks away from this residence site. It's not a very hard deal to go get a permit, and I feel like they've been given more than lenient time, personally, just me speaking, in order to get this. I -- I -- My feeling is I'd like to go ahead and say, you know, get it done, okay, and it can go away. I don't want to continue it and have to hear it again. I mean -- . MR. LAFORET: Well, I'm -- I'm amenable, and I agree that if the time allowed is adequate, but I just had no idea how long it takes to get a permit. If you say you can do it in a few days or a week, that's fine. In your motion say -- MS. LOUVIERE: I -- I agree. I think they've had six months, and I think that we're being pretty lenient giving them an additional 30 days to go ahead and talk to Alimar and -- and get it together. Just because you went and you saw her and she said, oh, now you need a survey, and you didn't keep going with it, you can't -- If -- If this is what you intend to do, you want to keep the trailer there, you're going to live there, then you need to follow through and obtain this, and 30 days is more than -- more -- When you come back here, it's going to cost you money so -- MS. RAWSON: My motion still stands. Actually, it's a little less than 30 days because our next hearing is February 22. So my motion is that you've got to have it done by February 22. MS. LOUVIERE: I think somebody seconded her motion. MR. ANDREWS: I stand by the second. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: We have a motion and a second to continue it for 30 days? MS. RAWSON: Or until February 22. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: I'm sorry. Until February 22. Excuse me. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. Those opposed? Nay. It carries five to one. So you're continued until our next meeting, sir. We'll go now to case 96-002. MS. CRUZ: This next case is the Board of County Commissioners versus Clara A. Ayala, case number CEB number 96-002. Miss Ayala, would you please come up to the stand? I've provided copies of the composite exhibit to the board, the recorder, and Miss Ayala. I would like to reflect on, the record that Miss Ayala is present. She is the property owner in question located at 1008 Palm Drive, Immokalee, Florida, more particularly described as section 32, township 46, range 29, parcel 18.11. Miss Ayala, I would like to, first of all, ask you if you have any objection to admitting this composite exhibit into evidence. MR. PETTIT: Before -- Before you get to that question MS. CRUZ: I'm sorry. MR. PETTIT: -- would the court reporter please swear Ms. Ayala. THEREUPON, CLARA A. AYALA, a witness, having been first duly sworn, upon her oath, testified as follows: Page 9 January 25, 1996 MS. CRUZ: State your name for the record, please. MS. AYALA: Clara A. Ayala. MS. CRUZ: I repeat, I've prepared a composite exhibit and provided you a copy and provided the board a copy also. Do you have any objection to admitting this composite exhibit into evidence? MS. AYALA: No. MS. CRUZ: I request that this composite be admitted into evidence and marked Composite Exhibit A. MS. RAWSON: I would move for introduction into evidence of Composite Exhibit A. MR. MCCORMICK: Second. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: We have a motion and a second. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. That carries unanimously. I think we had a unanimous second between Mr. McCormick and Ms. Louviere. MS. CRUZ: Miss Ayala is before this board for unlawfully placing a storage shed, carport, and concrete drive without first obtaining the proper building permit. This is allegedly in violation of a Collier County Ordinance 91-102 as amended, section 2.7.6, paragraph one and five. On February 23 code enforcement Investigator Dave Hedrich conducted an investigation of the subject property, resulting in the above-mentioned violation. On March 31, '95, a notice of violation was mailed certified mail to Property Owner Clara A. Ayala requesting compliance with the above violation by April 10, '95. Receipt of this notice appears to have been accepted by Clara Ayala. On May 10 another reinspection was conducted by Investigator Hedrich, resulting in non-compliance. A final inspection was conducted yesterday, January 24, again resulting in non-compliance. At this time I would like to question Mr. Hedrich regarding the subject violation. Mr. Hedrich MR. PETTIT: WOuld the court reporter please swear Mr. Hedrich. MS. CRUZ: MR. PETTIT: THEREUPON, DAVID HEDRICH, a witness, having been first duly sworn, upon his oath, testified as follows: MS. CRUZ: Mr. Hedrich, I understand your last inspection of the subject location was yesterday, January 24? MR. HEDRICH: That's correct. MS. CRUZ: And violations still exist? MR. HEDRICH: That's correct. MS. CRUZ: Could you please explain what the violation is at this time? MR. HEDRICH: The violation as reported last year was that a storage structure and concrete drive had been placed and added to the rear of the property right on the rear property line of the property in question. MS. CRUZ: Did you research the county records for any permits? MR. HEDRICH: Yes, I did. Okay. I thought he was already sworn in. Different case. Page 10 January 25, 1996 MS. CRUZ: Did you find any permits? MR. HEDRICH: I found no permits which showed had been pulled for an accessory storage structure at that time. MS. CRUZ: Have you had a chance to communicate with Miss Ayala? MR. HEDRICH: We did communicate a couple of times last year when this first began -- MS. AYALA: I -- Excuse me. I spoke to Miss Alimar several times -- MR. HEDRICH: Right. MS. AYALA: -- and was unable to reach Mr. Hedrich all those times, and I came in to the county office at least three times -- three different times, and she then informed me to please call because he had not been in the whole week, and I said fine. I mean, this was back in April when I first got my notice and -- and since and then I've since moved out of Collier County to Polk County in Winter Haven and I just -- I mean, I -- I took in what Miss Alimar asked me to bring in which was a picture of what we had done because the repairs were done by fa -- my -- you know, my dad and my brother and -- but -- but he's saying that I poured a slab, and it was There was, in fact, a slab there prior to the -- and the beams were up. They were erected, the beams that are supporting the roof now that I have and so -- I mean -- but -- but that -- I spoke to Mr. Hedrich -- I might have spoken to him once but not several times. MS. CRUZ: Miss Ayala, you are the property owner? MS. AYALA: Yes, ma'am. MS. CRUZ: The property located at 1008 Palm Drive MS. AYALA: Yes, I am. MS. CRUZ: -- Immokalee, Florida? MR. NCCORMICK: Mr. Hedrich, on our composite exhibit, page 11, if you could look at that, are we looking from the road, and there's a residence to the left -- MR. HEDRICH: Correct. MR. ~ORMICK: -- in the picture MR. HEDRICH: That's correct. MR. MCCORMICK: -- and the structure is MR. HEDRICH: And the structure is to the right and rear. MR. MCCORMICK: Okay. Is there a fence line to the right in the picture? Is that the property line, side property line? MR. HEDRICH: There is -- Yes. Correct. There is a fence that ~~ns along the side of it as well as to the rear of it. MR. MCCORMICK: You mentioned that you thought the setback, the rear property line was -- the pad was actually at the property line? MR. HEDRICH: Very -- Within inches. MR. MCCORMICK: What about on the side? Also the structure -- MR. HEDRICH: The side yard setback was not measured. I couldn't tell you accurately what that was. It is within several feet by judgment. MR. MCCORMICK: Do you know what the setbacks are required for an accessory structure like that? MR. HEDRICH: In an RSF-4 zoning district, your rear Page 11 January 25, 1996 yard setback is going to be a minimum ten feet, and side yard setback is going to be a minimum 7.5 feet. MS. LOUVIERE: But sometimes Collier County will grant administrative variances from setback -- MR. HEDRICH: That's correct. MS. LOUVIERE: -- rear and side setback. MR. MCCORMICK: Pretty flexible in an accessory structure. MR. HEDRICH: facility and not a MS. LOUVIERE: facility? MR. HEDRICH: MS. LOUVIERE: MR. HEDRICH: MS. LOUVIERE: still RSF-4? MR. HEDRICH: Yes. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. MR. MCCORMICK: Miss Ayala, can you give us some more background on your conversations with -- MS. AYALA: With Miss Alimar? MR. MCCORMICK: -- with Miss Alimar and the county MS. AYALA: Well, she told me that I had -- MR. MCCORMICK: -- and what you provided them? MS. AYALA: Yes. I had to draw a picture of what we had done, you put down the materials that we had used, and then bring it in to -- so that we could -- so that I could apply for a permit which -- which is what I wanted to do when -- when we started. And then I -- I -- you know, and I would -- I was trying to speak to him because he was the one that was supposedly going to help me with what I needed to get done, what I needed to do. I felt that he could tell me better than she could, and she said the same thing. So I said, well, okay, but I brought in this picture. And, again, he was unavailable. And then in June I moved. I moved out of the county, and I just -- I -- I didn't go back to try and get the permit again because my attempts to reach him or, you know, the person that I thought I was supposed to speak to because he was the one that had signed the papers, Mr. Hedrich, so I figured I -- I needed to speak to him, and then I moved, and I just completely forgot about it. I mean, it's not that -- and I knew, but, see, I -- this was an existing which I did improve on, and I read the thing that says improvements need to be -- you know, be issued a permit. So I'm not saying that I -- you know, that it -- that I'm not in violation because I can read the wording in your document, and I understand it. But the only thing is when I did try to get the permit that I needed, you know, I wasn't -- I wasn't able to, but I did attempt to several times, and Mrs. Al -- Ms. Alimar, Mrs. -- I don't know -- she was in the office each time, and then she was there when I called several times after. MR. MCCORMICK: She mentioned to you that you would need a permit too -- MS. AYALA: Yes but MR. MCCORMICK: -- but that you should probably talk to Yes. And when it's just a storage living facility -- Is this a storage facility or a living Storage. This is Yes. What's all storage? the surrounding uses? RSF-- It's Page 12 January 25, 1996 MS. AYALA: Right. MR. MCCORMICK: MS. AYALA: To see MR. LAFORET: When leave a message telling he could call you back? MS. AYALA: I -- I left -- Well, he had my -- my number. Miss Alimar -- I figured with the violations, and he had the address, and I didn't receive anything else from him, you know, after this notice. And I did come in several times, and Mrs. Alimar took my name, and she knew who I was and so -- but I didn't hear anything back from him again. MR. LAFORET: I was referring to your attempts to contact Mr. Hedrich. MS. AYALA: Yes, sir. And I spoke to Mrs. Alimar each time in the Immokalee office. That's -- I MR. LAFORET: Well, I don't -- You're telling me you spoke to Mr. Alimar. MS. AYALA: Ms. MR. LAFORET: Now, you tried to speak with Mr. Hedrich. MS. AYALA: Yes, sir. MR. LAFORET: Did you leave a message for Mr. Hedrich to call you? MS. AYALA: With Mrs. Alimar. Yes. MR. LAFORET: Not directly? MS. AYALA: Not directly. MR. LAFORET: All right. MS. AYALA: I left it with her. She's the one -- the representative that's always in the office in Immokalee. So she would be who I would have to leave the message with. MS. LOUVIERE: What does staff recommend? MS. SULLIVAN: Staff would like the same recommendations we did in the previous case, $100 fine and 15 days in this case to obtain a permit, and if not, then 30 days to remove the structure. MS. AYALA: Can I say -- How am I going to remove a slab that was already there? This is what -- MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. Well, I think what they're recommending is -- is that -- I've got a few problems with -- with your comments. Okay? One is that's great that he went out and he targeted -- he gave you a red tag and said he has a problem with what's going on on your site, and then you came in and you spoke to this person. Just because you couldn't get ahold of him and you moved out of town, the matter doesn't just disappear. MS. AYALA: I -- I understand this. MS. LOUVIERE: So we still need -- or, rather, you still need, because you're the property owner, to follow through on this. I think that staff is recommending that we fine you $100 and to give you some time for you to pursue getting a permit. MS. AYALA: Okay. lliS. LOUVIERE: And -- And I think that's very lenient, agall~B because what we're seeing here is -- is constant cases that have been going on for a long period of time that people are just not acting on. MS. AYALA: to Mr. Hedrich? exactly what I needed to do. you called for Mr. Hedrich, did you him who you were and your'telephone number so Well, but -- I mean, I did try and act on Page 13 January 25, 1996 this and it says -- MS. LOUVIERE: If you cannot get ahold of Mrs. Salizar or she wasn't giving you the right -- If you couldn't get it moving, there's a departmental services. There's a -- MS. AYALA: In Naples? MS. LOUVIERE: In Naples. Right. You can get -- You could have gotten this done and resolved. MS. AYALA: Yeah, but I thought that the office in Immokalee was there for us to use it there. MS. LOUVIERE: Right. MS. AYALA: Bu t when, you know, there's nobody available, it becomes hard MS. LOUVIERE: Right. MS. AYALA: and I have to work. MS. LOUVIERE: I understand. I really do. But how long has this been going on now? MS. SULLIVAN: Since last March. MS. LOUVIERE: Since March. March. So-- MS. AYALA: April. I got notice in April. MS. LOUVIERE: You got notice in April. MS. AYALA: Yes. MS. LOUVIERE: Well, we're still going to give you some time. Okay? We know that you're living out of town, and we're still going to give you some time to go ahead and fix it, get your permits in place. MS AYALA: Okay. MR. MCCORMICK: Miss Ayala -- MS. AYALA: Yes? MR. MCCORMICK: -- who lives there now in MS. AYALA: Who lives there now? MR. MCCORMICK~ Yeah. In the residence. MS. AYALA: One of my friends. MS. LOUVIERE: So she couldn't have helped you? No? MS. AYALA: NO. I mean, she can't go pull a permit for me. I am -- I mean, I'm the owner. I would assume that I'd have to get it. MR. HEDRICH: property owner. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: That could -- That could have been done by mail. I would like to clarify that. Permits are done all day long via mail. MS. AYALA: Well, if the process is explained -- I understand that I am just -- I was not aware in the first place that I needed to because I was just repairing. I wasn't erecting anything, you know, a new house or anything. It was just -- I was -- I was -- The slab was existing. The poles were existing. It had once been a garage, and I brought Mr. Hall who sold me the property to, in fact, Ea~ that it was there, I mean, when I purchased it from him in '89. MS. LOUVIERE: In '89 you had a slab, and you had poles? Y>;OUl -- MS. MS. MS. The permit does have to be obtained by the AYALA: Yes. LOUVIERE: did not have an enclosed -- AYALA: A roof. Page 14 January 25, 1996 MS. LOUVIERE: roof? You did not have it. In addition -- MS. AYALA: There was a small shed on the side, but it was -- you know, it's -- but it was old, so I did repair that, and then I -- I put a roof on this shed. I mean, you 'can see it. It's just a roof over the slab to park the car under because I, in fact, lived there, and I had planned to stay there, but then circumstances changed, and I moved out of the area. MR. MCCORMICK: I'd like to hear about the nistory on that if we could have the former owner speak because I think that will be a direct implication whether you are able to get a permit or not -- MS. AYALA: Okay. MR. MCCORMICK: -- if that was already there. MR. HALL: Well, actually -- I -- I mean, I didn't own my son -- CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Excuse me, sir. We need to have you sworn in, please. THEREUPON, EARL HALL, a witness, having been first duly sworn, upon his oath, testified as follows: MR. HALL: My son had bought the house, and in the process of moving in he died. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Excuse me one second, sir. We need your name -- MR. HALL: Earl-- CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: -- and address for the record, please. MR. HALL: Earl Hall, H-a-l-l. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: What is your address, Mr. Hall? MR. HALL: My address is 1103 Monroe Avenue in Immokalee. CHAIRPERSD~ ALLEN: Thank you. Go ahead, sir. MR. HALL: I've been in Collier County since 1935. I moved down here in '35. I'm one of the few original Floridians. But, anyway, my son passed away, and his wife moved and left the house, and she wasn't making the paYments, and the first thing we knew, it was being repossessed. So I had to hire a local attorney and get it paid off, in other words, and then I sold it to Clara and them because I had originally put the money in it. Of course, the kid was quite young. He -- Like I say, he died age 29 of a heart problem. So to keep from losing what we put in, we paid off. And then, like I say, her father and I go back 35 years as friends and all, so I let her have it. But she did improve upon it. It was just an old closed shed. They tore it down and made it look much better because I went ov~r there yesterday and looked at it. And I don't know about the legality of the permits. If y'all ever tried to get one in Immokalee, you kL~w what we're up against. I fought them for 35 years -- I had one tell me that before I could get a permit to build a -- just an open shed to store tractor wheels, that I had to plant shrubbery all the way across my property in front. I said, well, how am I supposed to get vehicles in. You know, you're in the tire business. You've got to get the tractor -- She said that's your problem, not mine. Now, this is the attitude they have. I mean, we're treated like Page 15 January 25, 1996 red-headed stepchilren out there. But now she did improve the ?roperty, and I know it's legal -- legally she had to have a permit. I mean -- MR. MCCORMICK: The concrete pad, that was already there? MR. HALL: Yes. MR. MCCORMICK: And then setbacks. MR. HALL: And the shed looked -- you know, looked lots worse than it does now. MR. MCCORMICK: Thanks. MR. HALL: But, like I say, I know y'all's hands are tied. I served on -- four years on the zoning board in Immokalee when we had one over there. I know the problems you have. MR. ANDREWS: I'd like to make a suggestion. Could you take a day off? MR. AYALA: Sir, I had to come down here. MR. ANDREWS: I think it would be to your benefit-- MS. AYALA: Yes, sir. MR. ANDREWS: -- to take a day off and go down to Horseshoe Drive and get this thing -- MS. AYALA: I'm going there from here. MR. ANDREWS: Okay. You can get the -- MS. AYALA: -- yes, sir. MR. ANDREWS: -- the whole thing just through -- And this is the second grievance we've had about this Miss Alimar over in the other -- I don't know her from a barrel of hay, but I think she should be investigated if this is the kind of service that's being handled over in Immokalee. But as long as you're going, I think you're doing the right thing. MS. AYALA: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: I hate to be the bad guy always. Okay? But, you know, I keep looking back, and I understand the process. I'm a general contractor for a living. Okay? Nobody likes going through the building process or permitting process worse than I do. Okay? And I hate to fight these battles like everybody else does in the county, but those are the rules we all have to abide by. MS. AYALA: Yes, sir. I -- I understand. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: This -- This scenario started last April. All righty? You know, it's a shame it's gone this long. My . feeling is that we should follow staff's recommendation, and I think in this case I would like to ask staff one question, is that because of the non -- because the building doesn't meet setbacks, I don't believe it's going to be obtainable in 15 days. That's just my one feeling, is that -- other than your recommendation is that because they're so close to the setbacks, we're going to have to get a '~riance, and typically staff is not going to be able to have an am~~nistrative variance -- A few inches or a foot or two is one thing, but ~e":r:e basically zero lot line and a few feet from one. So we're going to bave to get a ten-foot variance in one direction and four or five feet in another. I don't think that's going to be an easy process that can be done in 15 days. Would staff consider a $100 fine, 30 days to get the permit or 30 days to remove it? MS. SULLIVAN: Yes. That's fine. We don't have any problem with that. We wanted the fine to start running after that Page 16 January 25, 1996 time though, $100 per day, is what we had in mind. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: With that, Miss Ayala, if that's what the board chooses to do, in 30 days -- If you go from here to Horseshoe Drive, you know, it's going to be very -- it's going to be a very simple process. Either they're going to say'you can do it, or they're going to say you have to take it down. There's not going to be a lot of gray area. So you're going to know this morning whether you can leave your building or you're going ta have to remove it. MS. AYALA: Okay. . CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Okay. So that's -- MS. AYALA: What -- What -- But, see, what do I have to take them in order to get this done now, I mean, today? CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: It's not going to get done today. That's my point. MS. AYALA: I understand that, but what -- what would I have to present to them today in order for this to get done? These pictures, this file that she made up? CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Do you have the survey at all? MS. AYALA: No. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Pretty much -- I think Mr. Hedrich can maybe assist you, but somewhere the permitting department is going to look at this and say, you have a structure, you have a carport, you have a building, okay, that doesn't meet the ten-foot rear yard setback requirement -- MS. AYALA: Right. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: -- nor does it meet the side yard setback requirement. MS. AYALA: Well, I didn't know that there was -- I mean, what the feet were or anything about that. Okay. And they're going to decide there whether I have to tear it down or not? CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: No. No. That's not the case. We're going to decide that. We're going to give you 30 days to try to obtain a permit. MS. AYALA: Okay. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: That's my -- would be my recommendation. In fact, I'll bring this into a motion that we are going to give you 30 days to obtain a building permit. Okay? If you have not obtained a building permit within 30 days, you'll be fined $100 per day, okay, until you take the building down. MS. AYALA: Right. But you -- in that -- right before that you said that they would tell me today if I had to tear it down or not. They would. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: I'm saying they're going to tell you what the process is today -- MS. AYALA: Okay. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: -- that you're going to have to go through. MS. AYALA: Okay. ~HAIRPERSON ALLEN: No one is going to tell you you're going ~o have to take it down today. That's not the case. We're giving you -- We're going to give you 30 days for you to meet with the people at Horseshoe Drive to obtain a building permit. MS. AYALA: Okay. But because of the ten-foot, eight-foot is what you just said -- Page 17 January 25, 1996 CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: That's what -- That's what I spoke to staff -- Staff recommendation was to give you 15 days to get a permit. Because of your setback requirements, I'm asking them to give you another 15 days. MS. AYALA: Okay. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: So you've got 30 days to obtain a permit. MR. PETTIT: Mr. Allen, if I understand your motion, you are moving to make findings that there's been a violation CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Right. MR. PETTIT: -- and conclusions of law? And then an order, as I understand the motion, again, would be that a $100 fine would be imposed now -- CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Right. MR. PETTIT: -- to be paid within some -- some period of time and that -- then there would be 30 days to obtain a permit or remove the structure. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: I'll reduce this to the findings of fact and conclusions of law if you would like for me to, sir. MS. SULLIVAN: What we had in mind was the fine would start to run $100 per day after the 30-day period. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: After the 30-day period. You understand that, Miss Ayala? MS. AYALA: Yes. I understand. MR. ANDREWS: Who gets this? MR. PETTIT: Mr. Allen is the movant. MS. LOUVIERE: I like the first part of the motion where there's a $100 fine, that she has 30 days to obtain the building permit. I'm a little bit concerned after that because she's going to have to go and obtain a variance for these setbacks. If she can either -- I don1t know if this is going to be an administrative-granted variance because of the -- it's -- The setbacks are large. I mean, she's not even close to meeting her setbacks -- or if she's going to have to go through a hearing process. Is it possible that we can fine her $100, give her 30 days to obtain the building permit -- or not even to obtain the building permit but get her before us again because if she has to go through a variance, that's six months. So she could be trying MS. SULLIVAN: Staff -- Staff doesn't expect her to do something at this time that she hasn't got time to do. I just wanted -- Since it's been going on so long, that we have some motivation. If -- You know, if she goes and finds out it's going to take a great deal of time to get a variance and comes back and tells us, we don't have any problem with that MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. MS. SULLIVAN: -- but I think we need something to move it along. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. As long as that's understood. I jus~ ~'t want her to come back before and say, look, I went over there, and this is a variance process, that I'm going to have to take it a11 the way to the board to be granted, so I've got to have six months~ so that's tying me up to get my building permit, and in the meantime we're still fining her. MS. SULLIVAN: No. We don't expect her to do something Page 18 January 25, 1996 she's not feasibly able to do. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: With that, the findings of fact -- Do we have any more comments? MR. ANDREWS: Did you understand? Do you understand what she just -- MS. AYALA: Yes, sir, and that's why I wanted it clarified because if I have to go through another process and if they don't issue the permit today because -- I mean, he did -- Earlier what I understood from you was that it was going -- They could either tell me yes or no. MS. LOUVIERE: They're going to help you today. MS. AYALA: Okay. MS. LOUVIERE: They're going to get you -- They're going to point you in the right direction. MS. AYALA: Okay. Great. MS. LOUVIERE: It's going be up -- up to you to follow through and get it done. MS. AYALA: Right. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. MS. AYALA: Yeah. But I'll deal with here from now on. MS. LOUVIERE: In here? Deal.with it here. MS. AYALA: Right. MS. LOUVIERE: And we -- we have listened to two cases that you are having problems out there. I mean, that -- that's obvious. MS. AYALA: Okay. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. So, I mean, you have my sYmpathy on that respect, but we still have to get you a permit, and that -- you should -- MS. AYALA: Right. MS. LOUVIERE: -- come into town for that. MS. AYALA: Right. Right. Okay. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Finding of fact, conclusions of law, and order of the board. This cause came for public hearing before the board on January the twenty -- 25. Thank you -- the board having heard testimony under oath, received evidence, and heard arguments respective to all appropriate matters. Therefore, it issues its finding of fact, conclusions of law, and order of the board as follows. Findings of fact, that Clara Ayala is the owner of record of the subject property.. Number two, that the Code Enforcement Board has jurisdiction of the person -- of the respondent, that Clara Ayala was present at this public hearing. Number three, all notices required by Collier County Ordinance 92-80 had been properly issued. Number four, the real property legally described as in our packet as previously reported as CEB number 96-002 is in violation of the sections as shown in the package and the following particulars, basically that you have a shed and a carport, okay, and improved structure too close to the ~~Qperty line that was constructed without proper building permits. MS. AYALA: Is this to include the slab that it's on? Tc"s' j.ust in here it says concrete driveway, storage shed, and I just -- Is that to include the -- The whole thing was done at one time, or am I going to have to get several permits? This is what I'm -- I'm still in question on. Page 19 January 25, 1996 MS. SULLIVAN: She's just going to have to go over there ~nd let them -- tell them what she's got and let them advise her at that point I think -- MS. AYALA: Okay. MS. SULLIVAN: because it's too hard to tell. I have a question. Did we put -- Did the board put 30 days on that, or do you want it to coincide with the next board meeting? CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: We haven't got there yet. MS. SULLIVAN: Okay. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: I think it's the next board meeting. MS. SULLIVAN: I just wanted to bring that up. MR. PETTIT: Mr. Allen, you made a reference to -- in your findings that the structure was too close to the property line. It's unclear to me that that was one of the things Ms. Ayala was cited for. As I understand it, she was cited for having a structure without a permit. MS. AYALA: That's correct. MR. PETTIT: I think that that's obviously a significant fact for her in trying to resolve this problem, but I don't think we -- we can find her in violation of that because she -- CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Let me amend that to the description of the violation as described in number two, specifically unlawful placement of a storage shed, carport, or concrete drive without first obtaining proper building permits, more specifically. Thank you. Conclusions of law. Number one, that the subject property as described in CEB package number 96-002 is in violation of the section of Collier County ordinances, more specifically sections 2.7.6, paragraph one and five of Ordinance number 91-102. MR. ANDREWS: And I second. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Do we have any comments as to the motion? MS. RAWSON: I second the motion. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: We have a motion and a second. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. Now, I'll go to the order of the board. Based upon the foregoing findings of fact and conclusions of law and pursuant to the authority granted in Chapter 162 of Florida Statutes, the Collier County Ordinance 92-80, it's hereby ordered that the respondent, Clara Ayala, correct the violations of sections 2.7.6, paragraph one and five of Ordinance number 91-102 in the following manner. Basically that you obtain a building permit within 30 days and that the correction shall be completed on or before the -- our next meeting which is the 22nd of February 1996. And if you don't respond -- If the respondent does not comply with the order on or before that date, that -- and in the event, the respondent is hereby ordered to pay a fine of $100 per day for each and every day the violation described herein continued past said date and the removal of the carport and the shed. MS. AYALA: Okay. But will that include what -- Wait a minute, because there you're saying I have to have the permit, and if -- if time does not allow me to do that, is there going to be anywhere in there that -- that that's going to be stated because of the requirements in the six-month process if I do have to go through a Page 20 January 25, 1996 hearing? I'm sorry. I just want it to be written down. MS. SULLIVAN: We could always amend the order, but it would probably be better if it would read that she is to obtain a permit by the next board date or report back before the board. MS. AYALA: Or report -- Okay. MS. SULLIVAN: A progress report. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: That's fine. I'll amend my order. MR. PETTIT: That -- That -- That seems good, and I was going to make the point that 30 days is beyond the next board date. So if we're going to use the board date, it's really a little less than 30 days. The second point was there had been a reference to a $100 fine being imposed now. Is that part of your motion regarding the order or are you simply -- CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: No, sir. I think the $100 fine should be imposed after 30 days. MR. ANDREWS: After the 22nd. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: After the 22nd. Excuse me. And that we should -- I'll amend this also to the fact that if you have obtained a building permit or you can show us satisfactory proof where you have applied for a variance. MS. AYALA: Yes, sir. Okay. Thank you. MS. RAWSON: I'll second the amendment. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Okay. I'll finish this. The failure to comply with the order of the board within the specified time will result in a recommendation of the lien pursuant to Chapter 162, Florida Statutes, which may be foreclosed and the respondent's property sold to enforce the lien. So we have a motion and a second. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. Carries unanimously. MS. AYALA: Thank you. MS. SULLIVAN: Was that $100 per day or a $100 fine after that period? CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: $100 per day. MS. SULLIVAN: Okay. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: If -- If we could, could we have som~~ody help Miss Ayala today at Horseshoe Drive? Could we get -- Mr. Hedrich, can you get somebody on the front counter to help her? MR. HEDRICH: Ma'am, once you go over to the Horseshoe Drive office there, ask for Cheryl at the permitting desk. She is supervisor this week, and if she has any questions, she can contact me in the back. Cheryl. MR. MCCORMICK: Miss Ayala -- MS. AYALA: Yes? MR. MCCORMICK: -- if I could give you a piece of advice too, 1 think that the permitting process -- One scenario is likely that they're going to look at your setbacks and say you don't have the proper setbacks, so we can't give you a building permit. And then you'll say, ~ll, that concrete pad and some type of structure was already there before I bought it. MS. AYALA: Right. MR. MCCORMICK: And then they'll require you to prove that. Mr. Hall was nice enough to come down here today to testify on Page 21 January 25, 1996 your behalf. You may want to talk to him again and see if maybe he las any former pictures or there's likely there was a survey done when you bought the property from him. Okay? If -- If that structure was ever located on the survey, that would help you, or maybe even a statement signed by Mr. Hall. MS. AYALA: Okay. MR. MCCORMICK: You just may want to talk to him about tnat. MS. AYALA: Okay. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: is that correct? MS. CRUZ: That's correct. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Any comments by staff? MR. HEDRICH: If I could, I'd like to make one statement before we close this out. In referencing Alimar in the Immokalee office out there, Alimar is a one-person team out there in Immokalee. She does everything from all the paperwork to answering the phones, taking permit applications, processing permit applications, taking code enforcement complaints, as well as handling all call-in inspections for any Immokalee permits out there. She does a wonderful job. She handles everything out there extremely well and extremely professionally. I just wanted to say that in this statement. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: How long has she been with the county, Mr. Hedrich? MR. HEDRICH: I think she's coming up on ten years now. MS. RAWSON: Maybe she needs some help. MS. SULLIVAN: She definitely needs some help. MS. LOUVIERE: That's what it sounds like. MR. HEDRICH: It's been suggested in the past, and right now we're going through a transformation out there. Records are being packed up. We're about to obtain a new office out there, and this has been brought up before. MS. LOUVIERE: It sounds like it's becoming -- I mean, I've just been reading a lot about Immokalee. It sounds like it's becoming a much more active community, and it sounds to me like we're going to need to bump up developmental services a little bit up there. MR. HEDRICH: Becoming a lot more active, and the more Thank you. Thank you. That concludes our public hearings; MS. LOUVIERE: More zoning issues MR. HEDRICH: -- code enforcement gets around out there, the more extra work we do -- MS. LOUVIERE: Right. MR. HEDRICH: -- send their way. MS. LOUVIERE: Definitely. MS. SULLIVAN: We're somewhat encouraged in Immokalee right now because there's some citizens groups getting together, and they're -- they're supposedly going to try to help us clean it up. So we're -- we're happy about that right now. MS. LOUVIERE: Good. l~. MCCORMICK: Do you know if they still send a planner ou t tt""Jne.r::e one day a week? HR. HEDRICH: One day a week a planner -- MR~ MCCORMICK: Just one day a week? It's not -- MR. HEDRICH: Every Wednesday. Page 22 January 25, 1996 MR. MCCORMICK: Okay. MR. HEDRICH: Thank you. MS. LOUVIERE: Maybe we'll get help. MR. ANDREWS: New business. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Thank you, Mr. Hedrich. Now that we'll close the public hearings, we'll go to new business. It seems we have none. MR. ANDREWS: Yeah. I had a -- I had a couple -- CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Yes, sir, Mr. Andrews? MR. ANDREWS: I had a couple of points. I wanted some information from -- from our attorney. I talked to Ramiro on part of it, and I see he's not here today. Are you Mike -- MR. PETTIT: Mike Pettit. MR. ANDREWS: Mike Pettit. Yeah. I've heard about I've heard some nice things about you. Are you going to be permanently here. now? MR. PETTIT: No, I'm not. Ramiro and I have divided initially -- Actually, there's going to be a change in the works where I think outside counsel will be representing the board down the line. Today I pinch-hit for Ramiro with this board, and he pinch-hits for me on the Contractors' Licensing Board at this point. I -- Let me -- I don't want to cut you off, Mr. Andrews, but Ramiro did speak to me about -- and this, I think, is what you're going to raise -- is the issue of filling out the findings of facts and conclusions of law. MR. ANDREWS: That was one of them, yes. MR. PETTIT: That -- That may be one issue. I talked to Ramiro about that yesterday, and he said you might raise that issue. And not having the form in front of me, my initial thought was, that's a good idea to make things faster. And then I looked at it, and it indicates that the -- among the findings of fact where we have to find that the -- that the person charged with the violation is the owner of the property of record and several other items that you would think would be perfunctory and we could show ahead of time to save time, I would share Ramirc's concern that it would seem like we are then handing you an order where there's been no official action taken and no -- no findings actually made with -- with the information already decided. And although today there was no issue, I can imagine the day will come -- and you probably have heard it -- where somebody will come in and say I don't own that property, for example. So we -- we have a concern that -- that the perception of the public would be -- and the perception of the person charged would be that there's a prejudgment going on if we -- if we do that. Now, I wouldn't see any reason we can't hand you a document with the case name and number filled in. And I realize that -- that -- that this takes time to put that information in, but I -- I know Ramiro has a concern, and I -- I didn't have any feeling about it until I looked ~ the form this morning, and I guess I would agree with him now. MR. ANDREWS: Well, yeah. I discussed this in detail ~~th him. For five, six years we didn't have any problem with it, and then all of a sudden they came up with this new ruling, and it's -- it's been a very burdensome thing. Sometimes we don't even have the forms. We can pass them out, and nothing's filled out. Now, there's all kinds of things that can be filled out. I don't have one here but Page 23 January 25, 1996 that-- The -- The heading and -- and the -- the ordinance number and -- and the section number and all that stuff, we have to -- if we have that blank, we've got to go chasing all through this thing here to get this thing -- and it upsets your thinking. You're not thinking about what you're supposed to be thinking about. 'You spend too much time chasing around. A good example today, here you have one handed down. The chairman never makes -- never makes a motion. It's up -- It's up to the rest of us to do it. ' So I just think -- I understand the finding.of facts, that we can put the wording in after we've heard -- heard the thing. We can put the findings of fact and conclusions in, that part, but I'm just talking about the regular ABC stuff. That -- And I -- And I still think it should be done. We did it for six years, seven -- going on -- yeah, six years. We just changed it last year. We didn't have any problem. MS. RAWSON: Well, if I could -- MR. ANDREWS: Does anybody agree with me? MS. RAWSON: Well, if I can say, I understand what your problem is, Mr. Andrews, and I understand that it's difficult to go back and forth and keep up with this stuff, but since I'm an attorney, I would like to say that I don't really think we can put in findings of fact and conclusions of law before we hear evidence because it's in violation of their due process rights. And if -- if I look at this form, the only thing that they could really, in my opinion, fill out for us is the heading which isn't that difficult for us to pick up, but I have a problem with filling out anything in advance of a hearing because it's really a violation of the 14th amendment, among other things. MR. ANDREWS: Well, what about the -- You know, I understand the findings of fact and conclusions, but what about the def -- you know, the definition, the description of the property and all that stuff? MS. RAWSON: If you put the definition and the description of the property in there, you're already finding that the person is the owner of record of the property. If you put the statute in there, you're already finding that that person has violated the statute or the ordinance without having heard the -- first heard the evidence. So forgive me for thinking like an attorney, but I have to agree with the county attorneys. MR. ANDREWS: Well, you're an attorney and I won't shake another one. Okay. I'm going to try and -- I'm going to try and get this -- I'll try to get this -- MS. RAWSON: You know, you've got to watch those attorneys all the time. MR. ANDREWS: Yeah. I know. Okay. Here's -- Here's a new one that came up to me. I -- I have to go off of ~he board because -- because I've served my second term. February the 14th is the date. They've -- They've advertised for -- for replacements. I think you're going off too, aren't you? Jim, our chairman goes off the same time. And our next meeting will be after that point, and it's going to be sometime before -- You know, there's a lot of red tape after -- after they get volunteers to -- to sign up for -- for for this board. It's going to be way after -- after the meeting. I just wondered -- are we supposed to not attend that meeting, or can we Page 24 January 25, 1996 attend until -- until such time as we're replaced? In other words, that will make a five-man board. If somebody's out of here, they might have a problem. So I just wondered -- can you -- can you give me just -- MR. PETTIT: My off-the-cuff without researching it, my opinion would be that if the term of office expires, that you could no longer participate. If it's -- I'm just looking here at section 2-1033 on terms of office, and it indicates, as you point out, that two four-year -- two consecutive four-year terms is all you can serve, and apparently that's what -- that's what you have served now. MR. ANDREWS: Three-year terms. MR. PETTIT: Okay. MR. ANDREWS: Two three-year terms. Well, we have both I have been asked by several people to submit my resume and so forth in the event that they don't get a qualified volunteer, and -- and I know -- I know Jim is -- is -- is applying. He's automatically eligible if -- if he -- if the board chooses him. So there's a good chance that we -- we both might still be here, and it's kind of a shame just because of the time element thing to have to go off just because a certain date came up. MR. PETTIT: Yeah. I understand that. Let me -- Let me discuss that with Ramiro, and one or the other of us will give you a formal opinion. My thought would be that you would probably be off, and that would leave five members for the next meeting, and you need four for a quorum, as I recall. So you could still conduct business. MR. ANDREWS: Well, if they were all here. MR. PETTIT: If five were here or four. MR. ANDREWS: Okay. Okay. Now, I've got one more dandy. I've been on this thing since the beginning, and I've seen all kinds of changes. That's why I'm -- I'm asking these questions, and I don't even know -- I haven't discussed them with the board, so I don't know how they feel. We've always waited for the new members to come on -- come aboard and elect our chairman and vice chairman, and to me that seems real stupid because you've got two -- two -- two new people that are not aware of what's going on and so forth. I don't see why -- there's probably a reason for it -- we couldn't have the election, knowing these people and worked with them who -- to be chairman and vice chairman today which is the last date we'll be here for sure, the old-timers. Is there anything wrong with that? I don't think there's anything set up in set up in the rules and regulations about -- about when we vote. But I think -- I think two people who have been on the board three or more years are better equipped to pick a chairman and a vice chairman than two rookies that just came on. What -- Anybody -- Anybody Don't just sit there. Please give me some legal deal here again. MR. PETTIT: Let me -- Let me -- I want to interject something. I want to correct -- I want to correct a statement I made. I -- I was -- I have my code book out here, and I cited a wrong code section when I was talking about your terms of office. The right code section is 2-1010, although the result is the same regarding successive appointments, and I'm looking at that section again, and I don't see anything that really addresses this issue. MS. RAWSON: Well, what I would like to know is -- 'Page 25 January 25, 1996 because Mr. Allen's doing a fine job -- assuming he's going to get reappointed because he can because his -- he can have another term, how long is it going to be before they make that determination so he can still be our chairman if he gets reappointed? MR. ANDREWS: Yeah, but, see, that's the problem. The reappointment is going -- is going -- indefinite. There's a lot of paperwork and stuff there. I've been -- I've been talking to Sue about the thing, and it's -- it's -- there's no definite -- It takes time. And they were late get -- getting the ad'in for that particular one. They had all this list of different boards, but they forgot to put this one on, and so they put -- they put it on late. MS. RAWSON: When is the deadline? MR. ANDREWS: Beg your pardon? MS. CRUZ: I don't know. I'm sorry. I don't have the answer today. MR. ANDREWS: I mean, there's no definite date on it. It just takes -- There's a lot of monkey work. I talked to Sue about it, and she handles all this stuff. So is there any objection to voting today? If -- If there's no law against it, I don't see why we can't do it. MS. LOUVIERE: Well, I think that we -- MR. ANDREWS: Might as well do it and get it done and get the proper people in here. Okay? What do you say? CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: I don't have a problem with that. Do you have a problem? MR. .ANDREWS: You better be careful. You're the vice chairman, and I've got your name right on the tip of my tongue here. MS. LOUVIERE: Can I just interrupt something here for a minute? This is on a different tangent. It has nothing to do with chair and vice chair and how long the board -- I mean, I'm sure these are all good things, but could I have the status of three things when you guys come back to me next -- next board meeting? There's three things that are pending that have kind of been dropped, and I want to know what's going on with that. Sorry. One is I'd like to know the status of the Elba Development property search. I haven't heard anything additional on that. I'd like to know what's going on with that. Also I'd like to know the status of the nuisance ordinance. I understand the Board of County Conmissioners is very interested in getting that ordinance handled. I would like to know what's going on with that. And the third thing is I would like for you guys to give me a status. There was some discussion on obtaining outside counsel representing the board, this board. MR. PETTIT: I can address that today. MS. LOUVIERE: Okay. Because I -- MR. PETTIT: -- because I'm involved in that process. MS. L~LW~ERE: Yeah. Can you tell me just what's going on with that?' MR . PE~T][:!l': This pas t week the board approved a budget amendment as I understand it -- and Linda can -- Miss Sullivan can jump in here on this too -- to set aside money to hire outside counsel for both the Contractors' Licensing Board and the Code Enforcement Board, and this is coming about because staff felt that because of the complexity of some of the cases and the likelihood that they're -- Page 26 January 25, 1996 they're going to increase in number, that they felt more comfortable having the county attorney's office represent them. And I think probably Mr. Manalich has discussed with you that we cannot represent both at the same time, and I'm sure Ms. Rawson can speak to that as well. And I think historically there has been kind of a tightrope being walked on that -- in that respect because, again, staff sometimes has legal questions, and I know at least with Contractors' Licensing Board, until I actually represented staff this last month, questions were asked of me by investigators, and I said, I can't answer that. I'm not your lawyer. And that makes it kind of tough on the staff if they -- for them to do their job. So to solve those problems, I know that the budget amendment was approved by the board. The money has been set aside. Ramiro and I are reviewing a draft RFP which is a request for proposals. We are going to comment on it. I believe we have a meeting scheduled February 1 with Vince Cautero of community development and Miss Sullivan, Ramiro and myself and the purchase developer to finalize that RFP, get it disseminated and published for local attorneys for bidding, and that's -- that's my understanding now. The RFP process generally involves a selection of a committee, and they look at the qualifications. And obviously because we aren't burdened by some laws that don't permit us to talk about price when we're hiring engineers and architects, we can talk about price with the lawyers as well. So money -- You know, the -- the -- the bid, the amount a lawyer can do this service for will be a factor as well as prior experience and experience in the particular areas. But I would anticipate that -- I certainly would hope we will have that request for proposal on the street by or before February 15 and that typically we give 21 days to prospective proposers to respond. I can't really address the time it may take to go through the selection process. I won't be on the committee for selection nor will Ramiro, but I know probably -- I don't know who all will be on that committee. Usually the purchasing director would be, and I'm sure probably Mr. Cautero will be, several other people from the county. MS. LOUVIERE: There was discussion before as this-- The attorney is going to be representing this board. We need to have -- I really feel strong about having somebody from this board represent us during the selection. MR. PETTIT: You took those words out of my mouth. I hadn't even -- That hadn't even occurred to me, but as I was speaking, I think a member from each of the boards should be involved in the selections. That's -- That's just an opinion. I don't know how that will ultimately shake out, but I'm certainly going to raise that as one of the things I think should happen with -- with the RFP because it is going to be your counsel. Now, obviously you're revolving and have revolving membership, but I do think it would be good if a member from. each board was there and had a hand in choosing the counsel, unQerst~ng we've got some budget constraints. I'don't know whether" Linda, you want to add anything to what I've said. MS. SULLIVAN: That's why it's taking us so long. We didn't anticipate having to hire any outside counsel, and it wasn't in our budget. So we've been probably since October trying to find the Page 27 January 25, 1996 money to do this with, but we're pushing for the 15th. And one of my suggestions was, rather than take some arbitrary list, that we do put this out for public bid and try to get this as cheaply as possible and give everybody, you know, a shot in the selection without just picking somebody. MR. PETTIT: It may be in the next several months and I don't know what kind of matters are on your docket. I'm not as sensitive to that as the other board, but it may be in the next several months that you will have to go with an 'interim outside counsel if Mr. Manalich has to represent staff if you've got a complex matter that appears or if somebody is represented by counsel. MS. SULLIVAN: The county attorney's office has a list where they had asked for bids before. If you get in a bind, I mean, this -- this can be done rather quickly, but we're hoping that by -- Maybe we won't have anybody next month, but by March hopefully we'll have everything in place. MS. RAWSON: I -- I approve of the process of getting -- getting it out to the attorneys. Be sure you put that in the Adverse Witness and advertise so that everybody feels like that they had a -- you know, a shot at this if they are interested. MR. PETTIT: One of the suggestions that I'm going to make is that these -- that this be -- Typically these are posted. A lot of the county contracts, you -- people get notice of by belonging to a vendor subscription service, but lawyers typically aren't county contractors. They don't belong to that service. I'm going to recommend that we get it in the Adverse Witness, that we try to maybe send postcard notices to at least a reasonable representative number of the local bar. That could be 25 or 30 firms maybe. That we also maybe even consider even a newspaper or Florida Bar advertisement, aI.though one of the issues would be is -- were -- probably looking for -- Cost may prohibit somebody outside the county from representing these boards because we do have a budget limitation that may be built into the RFP, and we haven't gotten to that point yet. But we did pl.an to disseminate it as widely as we can. MS. LOUVIERE: Thank you. That -- That helped. I just wanted to know where it was, and I know we have a list of attorneys that we use, kind of like pinch-hitters, but I really would like to have somebody sit here that is familiar with our code and can really represent us on a steady basis because I think it's hard when att:orneys just come in for the one -- you know, for that one issue, and they're really not -- they're not familiar with how the board works all the time. So I would like to get this -- It sounds like you guys are moving on it, and that's fine. MR. PETTIT: I think the plan would be -- in the RFP, tha~ it would be a one-year agreement with options to renew based on obv10t~~y client satisfaction and other issues. MS_ SULLIVAN: We think it would be easier for staff too if we had S01t\ebody in place there all the time that we know who we could deal with. MS. LOUVIERE: Exactly. MR. PETTIT: I will warn you, though, that I think your hearings will get longer if -- if Ramiro is presenting staff's case, and I I warned -- Not just Ramiro. Any lawyer. Let me put it that way. CLB -- I did warn the CLB board, and I think I was right, that Page 28 January 25, 1996 trying to straddle the line between, okay, the rules of evidence don't apply, et cetera, et cetera, but also trying to elicit information by questions takes longer than to allow somebody just to stand at the microphone and make a statement. So you should be aware of that. MR. ANDREWS: As par for the course, we've done this before, and every time we get an extra lawyer in there, you figure you've got another hour on the book. I mean, that's just -- MS. LOUVIERE: Jean, what do you say to that? MR. PETTIT: It's true, but just think of all the due process you have then. MS. RAWSON: Well, I'd like to say that I think the staff has done an excellent job, and aren't we glad Ms. Sullivan is a lawyer, and it hasn't taken any longer. MS. SULLIVAN: Well, the paper today wasn't too glad I was a lawyer. MS. RAWSON: I was going to mention that editorial but not on the record. MR. PETTIT: And I will -- I will ask Mr. Manalich about these other items -- MS. LOUVIERE: Thank you. MR. PETTIT: -- and maybe he can even -- I don't know whether he's in a position to report back before the next meeting or not but see if he can. MS. LOUVIERE: That's fine if he can. And then I think we had other -- The other two issues that Charlie wanted to address that really needed to be addressed prior to our next meeting, and that was, can we extend the terms of the people on this board once they go past the two -- or it's the two six -- three years things. I don't know how long the term is. MR. ANDREWS: Three -- Two three-year. MS. LOUVIERE: I think MR. PETTIT: I would say no, but I'll get I will get back quickly on that. MS. LOUVIERE: If you could give us an answer on that. MR. PETTIT: Yeah. MS. LOUVIERE: And that needs to be done prior to our next meeting which is February the MR. ANDREWS: 22nd.. MS. LOUVIERE: Thank you. 22nd. MR. LAFORET: I was wondering if you made a decision of the representative of the board to participate in this attorney selection, I might suggest that the chairman of the board be the proper person in view of the fact that all of the members of the board have expressed confidence in the chairman's decision, the fact that they have elected him. It would be or it could be within the realm of possibility that -- Suppose my attorney -- Suppose I was on the board and my attorney offered a proposal. I might be -- It is possible. So I'd vote for him. You're going to have to watch that. MR. PETTIT: That's going to be an issue that's addressed in the RFP about potential conflicts so -- CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Excuse me. At this point in time, we'll choose the vice chairman because the chairman may not be reelected, reappointed, whatever. MR. LAFORET: Whoever the chairman may be. Page 29 January 25, 1996 MR. ANDREWS: Yeah. MS. RAWSON: Except that I -- I think you probably don't want an attorney on the selection committee. You might be better served with someone who's not an attorney selecting an attorney. MR. PETTIT: You mean from the board itself? ' MS. RAWSON: Right. So that leaves out Ms. Deifik and me. MR. PETTIT: I would think that if -- if ~- if my recommendations followed, that that's really a decision the board needs to make amongst themselves as to who they want to represent them. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Why don't we make a selection. I'll suggest we select Miss Louviere as the representative. MS. RAWSON: I do too. MS. LOUVIERE: Thank you. I appreciate that. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: We have a motion and a second. MR. ANDREWS:. I'll second. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: All those in favor. MS. LOUVIERE: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: You're our representative. MS. LOUVIERE: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: I have one quick comment. Okay? I saw something today that's really strange, that Mr. Hedrich typically does a very good job talking with like -- people like Miss Ayala, and she says she never talked to him but one time. Okay? I don't want to give you paperwork, Dave, more than you've already got, but I think when we're looking at this in our -- when we're doing our research, if you could just put, like, a PC on January the 10th or whatever, because now she's saying that you didn't talk to her, and so we're sort of caught here in the middle saying, you know, it's your word against her ~rd. You're both under oath. And if we just had a little note in the file, you know, you red-tagged it with a notice of violation, a stipulation, if we could just tag in here when these phone calls occurred, we could -- we could have a better feeling of that -- you know, you've done all your due diligence and that she's up here lying to us or -- if that's the case. MR. HEDRICH: I'll be more careful in noting those. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: I appreciate that because that really looked -- You know, I understand -- I know you, and I understand, but it's very simple for someone to say it's the first time I ever saw the guy. MR. HEDRlCH: The same thoughts occurred to me at the time also. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Thank you, sir. MR. ANDREWS: Okay. CHAIRPERSCM ALLEN: We've got new business basically Any more comments on new business? MR. ANDREWS~ WOo No. I -- Does the board want to elect a chairman today or wait for the new board? MS. RAWSON: We don't want to violate the Sunshine Law. I asked a question on the record -- it's my understanding that Mr. Andrews and our chairman will not be sitting here next month; is that correct? MR. ANDREWS: That's right. Page 30 January 25, 1996 CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: get reappointed. MR. ANDREWS: Unless something drastic happens in the meantilne which I don't think it will. MS. LOUVIERE: So then we should vote for a chairman -- MR. ANDREWS: Today. MS. LOUVIERE: -- to run us our next meeting. Well, I think -- MR. ANDREWS: Well, we -- we've got -- we've got a vice chairman that will automatically move into that if -- if we don't vote -- She automatically -- If he's not here, you take his place, don't you, as vice chairman? MS. RAWSON: Well, yes. I could be the acting chair. MR. ANDREWS: Well, if he and I are not here -- he's not here, you're going to be -- you'll be the acting chairman until that time but -- but -- MS. RAWSON: That's my understanding, and I'm usually the acting chair when he's unavailable. MR. ANDREWS: Yes. Yes. That's the idea. MR. MCCORMICK: Mr. Allen may be gone for three -- three months, you know, before the approval happens? He could be out of the loop for that long? MR. ANDREWS: So my whole idea is -- is to have veterans vote for -- for -- for the chairman and -- and the vice chairman. MS. LOUVIERE: Well, I think -- Okay. That's very good, and I guess we're all here. So I'm just going to make -- I think Jean does a great job, and I just -- I don't know if we're going to get Mr. Allen back. As much as I've enjoyed working on this board with you, it seems it's going take a while to get -- if -- if we can do it, if so. In the meantime we need a chairperson. I nominate Jean -- MR. ANDREWS: I second. MS. LOUVIERE: -- as the chair of the board -- to chair. MR. ANDREWS: I second. MR. MCCORMICK: Second. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: All those in favor, signify by saying aye. Any opposed? MS. RAWSON: Nay. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Too bad. MS. LOUVIERE: Too bad. MR. ANDREWS: I'd like to make a motion for the vice chairman for Mireya Louviere -- CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: I'll second that. MR. ANDREWS: -- to be the vice -- the vice chairman. We've caught all the heck we can today on -- on attorneys. Now we're going to have a couple gals up there running this joint so MS. LOUVIERE: A couple of gals. MR. ANDREWS: But it's my fault, but I'd rather -- I'd rather do that than have some of these amateurs come in and pick somebody wrong. MS. RAWSON: Let the record reflect that Mr. Andrews has ~ominated two women. MS. LOUVIERE: Yes. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: That's my understanding, unless we I never thought about it like that. I'd like to add one comment, okay, Page 31 January 25, 1996 since I won't be here next month. Okay. If they have a bad day together, it would be, like, nuke em. MS. LOUVIERE: That is such a remark. MR. ANDREWS: Does anybody second my motion? CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: I'll second. MR. MCCORMICK: I'll second. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: All those in favor, signify by saying aye. Carries unanimously. MR. ANDREWS: I did my good deed for -- CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Thank you, sir. MR. ANDREWS: -- for my seven years. MS. LOUVIERE: I appreciate your confidence. Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: So we've concluded new business. Do we have any other new business? That's concluded. We'll go to old business, about First National Bank of Immokalee. MS. CRUZ: Yes, sir. Case number 94-001, Board of County Commissioners versus First Bank of Immokalee. Mr. Gary Wrage, vice president of First Bank of Immokalee has requested to come before this board. This case appeared before this board on January 27, '94, and June 23, '94. First Bank of Immokalee was found in violation of three different violations to -- A, provide temporary barricades to the job site within 72 hours to provide for the public, health, and safety. That violation was in compliance. Have an active permit on the job site within 30 days. That violation was also complied with. And C was respondent shall obtain a certificate of completion for the structure within six months of the date of the signing of this order which should have been done by December 30, '94. And the respondent shall complete 50 percent of the work toward the certificate of the completion within 90 days from the date of the signing of this order which was September 28, '94, and that a certificate of occupancy shall be obtained by respondent for the structure within 18 months from the date of signing this order which should have been obtained by December 30 of '95. Mr. Wrage is before this board to request for an extension due to -- he was unable to comply by that -- with that order. Mr. Wrage, would you please come up to the stand. THEREUPON, GARY WRAGE, a witness, having been first duly sworn, upon his oath, testified as follows: MS. CRUZ: I need you to state your name for the record, please. MR. WRAGE: Gary Wrage, duly elected officer of First Bank. of Immokalee. MS. CRUZ: The floor is yours. MR. WRAGE: Well, we were before this board a little over a year ago, and never in my wildest dream did I think that I would be back. Obviously First Bank of Immokalee due to the type of regulatory agency we work under cannot operate that. Obviously we acquired it through foreclosure. Our intent is to sell it. We brought it up to what the county told us we had to and got the certificate of completion. We have attempted to sell that. We've been unable to do Page 32 January 25, 1996 so. And that's mainly why we're asking for an extension. We have the biggest motive in the world for selling this thing, and that's money, and it costs us money every day. I'll be happy to answer any questions. MS. CRUZ: Would you please tell this board what kind of extension you're asking for. MR. WRAGE: Well, I had originally asked for one year. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Excuse me, Mr. Wrage. Okay. You have a certificate of completion, and all the things are complied with, and basically you just have the building for sale? That's how simple this is; right? MR. WRAGE: Yes. Okay. And obviously, you know, I'd like to just -- just -- just blow my horn for a little bit. Way back when we were cited for all these violations, we went through a two-year process, a foreclosure, fraud, bankruptcy, and lawsuits. Okay. In that, even before we even owned the property, we attempted to secure that. I have bought at least two fences that -- One of them lasted a whole two months. One of them lasted about a week, and we didn't even own the property at that time. We tried to secure it. We tried to be good citizens. Since the time that we have actually owned the property, we've had two separate incidents of vandalism. One of them the county got to it before I could correct it, and we got cited for that. Those have been taken care of. Like I said, I'm trying to blow my horn a little bit that we have tried to be good citizens. There are obviously people in the neighborhood that would like to see that thing completed or something done with it. I -- I appreciate their problem or their concern, I guess, but I do have a problem in trying to get rid of this project. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: For the people who are new on the board that weren't here in '94 when we heard it, could you sort of bring Mr. Laforet and Mr. McCormick up to speed of how ya'll ended up with this building? MR. WRAGE: Well, banks don't make mistakes, but they do make errors in judgment. Okay? This project was brought to us basically by another bank to help them out. We -- We took this on as a lender for a contractor. Once we got the project started, the contractor went into default, ultimately went into bankruptcy. If you've been through that process, it's quite lengthy. Obviously the project was -- At that time we -- we had the walls. We had a roof on it. That was as far as it got. Once we got the stay from the bankruptcy, then we had to go through the normal foreclosure. Then prior to us getting an actual foreclosure, we had a suit filed against us called a vendor's lien, and attorneys will chuckle at that, I'm sure, but they drug that thing on for almost a year. The prior owner deeded the property, okay, and took a quitclaim deed back. When we foreclosed on the property or began our foreclosure, he filed the quitclaim deed. Well, obviously it's junior to our mortgage, but he claimed a vendor's lien because he had been wronged and hadn't gotten his money. So this thing drug on and on and on. That thing has been there for a long time. It actually started -- I think we actually started the process in 1990, late of 1991. We actually got a deed to it -- and I don't have the record -- but in -- as I recall, in the middle of 1994. And then from that process, we had to get a contractor, go through the bid process and build it to the building Page 33 January 25, 1996 that's -- that's basically complete there today. And, like I said, we -- we really thought we would have this thing sold by now. We have negotiated with two different parties. It fell apart for various reasons. So we're back asking for a continuance. We have lowered the price on the building. We will probably continue to lower the price until someone does come forward. If you're familiar with that area, we're probably two or three years ahead of time. The initial project was in two phases. We only have phase one. Phase one is a convenience store, gas station. Phase two is a strip mall. The owner that owns the property with the strip mall is the one that sued us, so we're obviously not talking to one another. It would make an ideal site for someone to put that in. I don't see that happening as long as he owns his part and we own our part because we're not talking. He cost us a lot of money. But we can still sell that convenience store. Just for your information, of the major holdups for the people that we talked to initially -- and we're over 21 -- the bank did not research this, but in order to put that convenience store, there's got to be a turn lane in there. If you're familiar with it, it's on 846. It's right in a curve, and we're talking about some major dollars to put that -- MR. MCCORMICK: This is before Orange tree MR. WRAGE: No. Orange tree was in the process. Okay? MR. MCCORMICK: But the location of it is on 846-- MR. WRAGE: Oh, excuse me. Yes. It's in that curve just before Orangetree. MR. MCCORMICK: Okay. MR. WRAGE: Okay? I've heard all kinds of figures of what it will cost to put that turn lane in there, and obviously any potential owner's looking at that, and it -- it's going to be tough to recoup those costs on a convenience store. That is sort of a background of how we got to where we are today. And, again, our -- our goal is to sell it. Obviously we cannot finish and operate it as a bank. When that's going to happen -- I had hoped it would be done by now. It's not. We're asking fora continuance, or I should sayan exte.nsion. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: How does staff feel about this? MS. SULLIVAN: Staff has a recommendation that -- I believe you've asked for -- Did you ask for any specific length of time for MR. WRAGE: I believe in my letter I had asked for a year. MS. SULLIVAN: A year? We -- We would recommend that he be allowed six months, which would be June 30, to get it CO'd, and if that doesn't occur by June 30, that the fines start to run at that time from December 31. C~IRPERSON ALLEN: Excuse me. I'm a little confused. I thoUQ~ he said -- I thought you just said, Mr. Wrage, you had a certif.ic:ao::te of completion. MFLD'AGE: Pardon? We have a certificate of completion.. lOl.Ot a CO. MS. CRUZ: He was supposed to obtain CO by December 30. MS. LOUVIERE: Can he obtain the CO as it stands right now? I mean, if -- can he obtain the CO, or what I'm kind of hearing Page 34 January 25, 1996 here -- and maybe I'm wrong -- is that you cannot get a CO without building the turn lane; is that right? MR. WRAGE: Well, there's many things that have got to he dofte, ma'am. It's basically a -- It's just a skeleton of a building right now. Okay? There's no parking lot. There's no turn lane. Tanks are in the ground. The building has the exterior part completed with the roof, and that's it. Okay? The CO would require basically a turnkey convenience store complete with gas pumps, signage, and what have you. MS. SULLIVAN: We understand that, but because that was the violation, basically that would give him six months to sell the property. MS. LOUVIERE: Right. So you would have six months to sell the property or finish it up to obtain the CO, and maybe you could work around the turn lane situation. MS. CRUZ: Mr. Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Yes, ma'am. MS. CRUZ: I have some photographs that were taken yesterday, January 24, showing the status of the violation. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: That would be great. MS. CRUZ: I would like to introduce these photographs and mark them as Composite Exhibit B. MR. PETTIT: Yes. You may want to introduce A too which is, I guess, the original order and exhibit. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Thank you. What kind of measure are you looking at to bring this thing into a CO status? MR. WRAGE: It depends on who you talk to, buyers or sellers. My best estimation, the turn lane, I've heard figures anywhere from 90 to 150,000. That's just for the turn lane. Okay? To complete that, I've seen figures presented to me -- obviously from people who want to buy it, from 250 to 400,000, depending on the type of convenience store you want to put in there, understand. But I would estimate the turning lane is going to cost at least 100-plus and probably at least 250,000 to bring the convenience store on line. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: What are y'all asking for the property if you don't mind me -- MR. WRAGE: Right now we are at an asking price of three ten. Make me an offer. I can't be -- I can't be embarrassed. I've already been embarrassed. You can't make me mad. Financing is available, you know, but anyway -- MS. RAWSON: I would move for introduction into evidence the entire packet that's in our book CEB 94-001, including five pictures that have just been handed to me to be included with that packet. MR. ANDREWS: I second the motion. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: All those in favor, signify by saying aye. Carries unanimously. MR. WRAGE: Can I just point out one thing? That the main concern back when we first came to the board was the fact that when the contractor banded the site, the tanks had simply been put in the ground, and they were there. They were in a hole. We put barricades around that. You've heard me say that at least twice that obviously does not work, anything that would stop children or slow Page 35 January 25, 1996 them down so to speak. So when the contractor did this, what we did 'l\7as -- is basically fill the holes up, okay, put the PVC pipes which is basically the outlets to the tanks so there's a very gradual grade there. We obviously spent some money that -- that I don't feel we should have, but we've done it to make the site safer simply because fences will not work in that area. It's semi-rural. People can come and go as they please. Like I say, it's been subject to vandalism. MR. MCCORMICK: Can somebody with staff o'r maybe that was maybe on the board at the time explain why the co was -- was included in the order of the board, why that -- the CO needed to be obtained by December 30 or what the reasoning was there? MS. CRUZ: I guess the intentions was that -- not to leave the building, so to speak, an abandoned building out there without being completed. I believe the option was given before this respondent was brought before this board to either complete the structure or remove the structure. And I believe, you know, their choice was to continue on with the construction of the building, and I believe code requires that once you begin the construction, you have to finish it and obtain a CO. MR. MCCORMICK: Okay. MS. LOUVIERE: I have a question. I -- I think -- I think I've seen this site. I know because I'm working on another site nearby. I'm little bit confused why -- Who -- Who said that you need to build a turn lane to access this? Where did that stipulation come . ? lll. MR. WRAGE: That comes from your -- from the MS. LOUVIERE: Developmental services? MR. WRAGE: Yes. Developmental services. MS. LOUVIERE: From the site development plan process? MR. WRAGE: (Nodded head.) MS. LOUVIERE: It seems to me that that -- If you could get that issue sort of resolved, then maybe your property would be a little bit more attractive to a buyer. MR. WRAGE: I've had at least three probably different contractors address that issue with the county. Now, I haven't been a party to that, but they've come away with the feeling that it had to be done. Not to step on my own toes, but that is a busy intersection, and I can certainly see, you know, why he would need a turn lane. Unfortunately it's on a curve. I'm not an engineer but I -- and -- and it's already been pointed out to me the turn lane will be on the outside of the curve, and you're talking about a tremendous amount of fill just to build it up before you even build a turn lane. MS. LOUVIERE: It's too bad there isn't another alternate access to the site. MR. WRAGE: There is two -- There is two accesses to tmu~ site or entries to the site. One of them actually comes off of Randa] ~ulevard, but, again, the word that I get from the contractors that 100k at this that have dealt with the county says there's got to be a turn ~ane there. The only way there's a possibility if you downgrade it from a convenience store to maybe an office building, less traffic, you probably wouldn't need a turning lane. I'm a little reluctant to do that until somebody tells me what they want to build it for. I don't care what they put in there as a banker, you know, but we -- the highest and best use at the present is a convenience Page 36 January 25, 1996 store. MS. LOUVIERE: That would not necessarily be such a bad use there to downgrade it, to start thinking about maybe downgrading, just -- MR. WRAGE: Well, I would like to leave that up to the person, whoever buys it. MS. LOUVIERE: I understand that. MR. WRAGE: And so far anybody that has contacted us to buy it have thought in terms of convenience store, gas station. MS. LOUVIERE: So basically you're saying six months. MS. SULLIVAN: We're saying six months because, you know, it represents really an -- really un -- not an unsafe structure but an abandoned-type building, and it's just kind of a safety issue, although there hadn't seemed to be any problem until now. We just feel like it's gone on so long that we need to do something about it. MR. WRAGE: I certainly have no problem with the six months, but I -- we have changed realtors. There's some negotiation going on, I guess, with the realtor. He tells me there's someone that's interested. But if you've dealt with realtors, they've always got someone interested. I don't have any prospects right at the moment. In all probability I would be back here in six months asking for another extension. I just feel, you know, if you're familiar with the area, at some point -- The area is developing rather quickly. Tllere is another convenience store not too far away. This convenience store was originally going to be a deli -- semi-restaurant, deli, gas station which I think would go in that area, but I -- I just -- You know, six months is fine, but I'm telling you -- I'm warning you I'll be back here probably in another six months. I doubt if I'll have it sold by then. MR. LAFORET: Make it an attorney's office. According to Mr. Andrews, there's a zillion of them around here. . MR. WRAGE: If it hadn't been for attorneys, I wouldn't be standing here. Okay? MS. LOUVIERE: Attorneys are really getting it today. I feel bad for you. MS. SULLIVAN: We're used to it, aren't we? CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: We have a motion? MR. MCCORMICK: I'll make a motion that we grant a six-month extension as recommended by staff. Is there anything else that was included in your recommendation? MS. SULLIVAN: We had asked for the fines to start to run retroactive to December 31, but, you know, that's up to the board. It's a recommendation. MS. LOUVIERE: I feel reluctant to fine him. I think -- I think -- I feel that he -- the representative of the bank is truly making an effort to try to sell his property. I know you -- I would really like for you to work a little harder. Maybe six months -- We are giving you six months. I know you've worked -- I'm just reluctant to fine you because I really -- I like -- I feel that you're really working to try to sell this piece of property. MR. WRAGE: Well, I -- I apologize for not asking the realtor to come_ He could tell you how hard he's working. Okay? I tried myself for about six months before we hired the first realtor. MS. LOUVIERE: I've driven by, and I've seen it. It's Page 37 January 25, 1996 not really a bad use. It's just bad that you have this access uroblem, and I recommend -- and I know you have done this. Maybe you can go back up to developmental services and try one more time to resolve this access. There's got to be some creative solutions to it. There has to be. And that should be something ~- because I think that -- that -- If you could maybe even make some sort of agreement that -- to get -- to get it leased, to get it going, to get it up, and then we'll build the turn lane. I mean, there" s a lot of ways of maybe approaching this, not necessarily saying Iim not going to build it ever. Just, can you give me some time to get funds to build it. If I've got somebody in there, then it would be built. MR. WRAGE: Would you put that in writing, and I'll take it down to developmental services? MS. LOUVIERE: I can't put that in writing. It's just a suggestion. MR. WRAGE: Okay. I appreciate what you're saying, and and I -- I do -- If -- If someone wants to do something different the building, I think that is an option, but I'm just telling that's one of the major obstacles to a convenience store. MS. LOUVIERE: Mr. Andrews, to bring you up -- we have a motion from Mr. McCormick, six months MR. PETTIT: Excuse me. Being a lawyer, I have to be overly formalistic and prolong this. Are we amending the order that's now in place or simply granting a continuance to review that order again in six months? MR. MCCORMICK: I think that a continuance may be appropriate because what I hear and agree with, at this point it appears that progress has been made or the efforts have been made, so we're not going to enact any fines today, but we'll relook at that six months from now and see what you did between now and six months. So unless, Mr. Pettit, you can advise differently, I think the continuance ~uld -- may be the cleanest way. MR. PETTIT: I think that would be fine. I was just going to point out that if we were amending the order, the order provides for the fines to begin to run on December 31, 1995, I think, the way I read it. What we're really doing then is we're simply continuing this matter for six months to be reviewed at that time by the board. MR. MCCORMICK: Six months from now we can amend the order. If we want to have started at a different day than December 30, we can begin fines in -- in June if we so choose? MR. PETTIT: We could -- Yes. You could amend the order at that point. MS. SULLIVAN: Could we just put it in the order July 25 is the -- the July meeting, that he needs to come back in July 25 and come before the board again so we don't have to go through the whole process again? MR. MCCORMICK: ~~il July the 25th. ~IRPERSON ALLEN: I'll second. I would like to make one point too for the record before we close this and vote. Mr. Wrage, would you mind telling us how much money that you all have spent to date to bring -- to get you to the certificate of completion just so we'll -- I -- with you, So the motion is made to continue this Page 38 January 25, 1996 MR. 'WRAGE: From the time we took over the project, I think we spent a little over 100,000 because it had sat there to the point .it had deteriorated. We had to tear off the old roof and put on a new one, new rafters, new sheeting. The rest of it was site prep. We -- We put in a fire well. I won't discuss the merits of that. I mean, we're only 150 yards from the nearest fire station. But, anyway, approximately 100,000, I believe, is what we -- what we have put in cash in it since we got the foreclosure plus obviously what we'd already put in to start with. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Thank you very much. I just wanted to have that number in the record. We have a motion and a second. Any more comment? All those in favor, signify by saying aye. Carries unanimously. MR. WRAGE: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Thank you, sir. MR. WRAGE: Appreciate it. MR. ANDREWS: Come to see us again in six months. MR. WRAGE: Okay. My daughter dated a lawyer, but she didn't marry one. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: Excuse me. Can we reverse that decision? Mr. Wrage, can you come back? MR. SULLIVAN: So did I. I said, so did I. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: That concludes our old business. We'll go to reports. Do we have any reports? MR. ANDREWS: We've done enough damage today. CHAIRPERSON ALLEN: That should do it for us. Our next meeting is February the 22nd of '96 with our new chairman. MS. RAWSON: I move that we adjourn. We're adjourned. ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 10:24 a.m. COLLIER COUNTY CODE ENFORCEMENT BOARD ~D~ JAMES D. ALLEN, CHAIRPERSON TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF DONOVAN COURT REPORTING BY: Christine E. Whitfield, RPR Page 39