CLB Minutes 02/17/2010 R
February 17, 2010
TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
Naples, Florida
February 17, 2010
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County
Contractors' Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having
conducted business herein, met on this date at 9: 00 a.m. in Building
"F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the
following members present:
Chairman:
Thomas Lykos
Terry J erulle
Kyle Lantz
Richard Joslin
Michael Boyd
Lee Horn
Patrick White
ALSO PRESENT:
Ian Jackson, Building Review & Permitting
Michael Ossorio, Building Review & Permitting
Robert Zachary, County Attorney's Office
Patrick Neale, CLB Attorney
Page 1
AGENDA
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
DATE: WEDNESDAY - FEBRUARY 17, 2010
TIME: 9:00 A.M.
W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING
(ADMINISTRATION BUILDING)
COURTHOUSE COMPLEX
ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE
PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM
RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND
EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED.
I. ROLL CALL
II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS:
III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
DATE: DECEMBER 16, 2009
V. DISCUSSION:
(A) End of the Month Report - December 2009 & January 2010
(B) Workshop Information - Updating Ordinance
VI. NEW BUSINESS:
(A) Dusan Skoric - Contesting Citation
(B) Richard Cochenour - Contesting Citation
(C) Gary Elliott - Contesting Citation
(D) Paul D. Lykins - Reinstatement of County License
(E) Paul Gaydos - Qualify Second Entity
VII. OLD BUSINESS:
(A) Marisol I. Santos - Review of Credit Report (Six Month Review)
(B) Colleen Martinez - Review of Credit Report (Six Month Review)
VIII. PUBLIC HEARINGS:
(A) Case #2010-01
Maharay Borrego
D/B/A: Mary's Kitchens & Interiors, Inc.
IX. REPORTS:
X. NEXT MEETING DATE:
FRIDAY MARCH 12,2010
W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING, 3RD FLOOR
(COMMISSIONERS MEETING ROOM)
3301 E. TAMIAMI TRAIL
NAPLES, FL. 34112
(COURTHOUSE COMPLEX)
February 17,2010
(The proceedings commenced without Mr. Boyd and Mr. Horn
being present.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All right. Let's call the meeting to order
of the Collier Contractor Licensing Board. Today is Wednesday,
February 17th, 2010.
Before we get started, for the record, any person who decides to
appeal a decision of this board will need a record of the proceedings
pertaining thereto and, therefore, may need to ensure that verbatim
record of the proceedings is made, which record includes that
testimony and evidence upon which the appeal is to be based.
At this time I want to remind everybody to speak slowly and
speak one at a time into the microphone because we're being recorded.
We'll start with roll call to my right.
MR. JERULLE: Terry Jerulle.
MR. LANTZ: Kyle Lantz.
MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Tom Lykos.
MR. WHITE: Patrick White.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: And, thankfully, Patrick got here just--
just in the nick of time, and we do have a quorum. So we'll have
official business today. Thank you.
MR. WHITE: On-time delivery.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Any additions or deletions to the agenda?
MR. JACKSON: Good morning. Ian Jackson, Contractor
Licensing, Collier County. The staff has one addition, a request to
authorize the chair to sign orders to pay the civil penalties, and that
will conclude the additions and deletions.
(Mr. Boyd entered the room.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Those are additions and deletions. I need
a motion to approve.
MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that we approve the agenda.
MR. LANTZ: Second, Lantz.
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February 17, 2010
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in favor?
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Motion carries. Thank you.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, just before we get started, for the
record, Mike Ossorio, Collier County Contractor Licensing. Just to let
you know, Mr. Jamie French is here in the building. If you want to
speak to him, he's -- any questions during the meeting, he'd be willing
to help you answer any questions.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Mr. French, did you want to
address the board at any specific time?
MR. FRENCH: I'll do it right now.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: That's great. Thank you.
MR. FRENCH: Good morning. For those of you that don't know
me, my name's Jamie French. Sorry I'm a little winded. I just ran in
from the parking lot.
I just wanted to introduce myself to you today and, also, take the
opportunity to thank you. I know as professionals and as community
members this takes a lot of your time, and as -- from staffs point of
view, we certainly appreciate the civic pride that you show by being
on these boards.
I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about some of the
reorganization that's going on at CDS and -- just to let you know that
Mike's group has been brought in with the operations piece. Excuse
me. I'm just trying to get caught up.
But at any rate, what -- what's happening is that we're actually
looking at some of the efficiencies that we could install, and not just
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February 17,2010
the services that he provides but, also, some of the other services that
we provide in community development.
And with that what we've done is that we've actually brought
over some additional staff to help Mike on that front-end line, but in
return Mike's going to provide us some oversight on some of the other
licensing functions that goes on within our organization.
So it really is a cost benefit to not just the community but, also, to
Mike's organization because it gives him two additional staff members
that he's not currently budgeted for or paying for on that frontline
that'll actually free him up and get him more out in the field.
Also, we are working very closely -- part of my organization is
that we're an integrated operations support so that we are still working
very closely with the building official. The building official does
provide some oversight to Mike. He's still involved in the permitting
function, and he's going to be very much a part of Community
Development from this point forward.
So the only thing that we do see in the future is finding out where
we can even be more efficient here. So if there's anything that I can
answer for you from this point from an operations point of view, I'm
certainly happy to do that.
MR. JOSLIN: What other types of licensing factors are we going
to be responsible for hearing cases on?
MR. FRENCH: This board will not be responsible for anything --
we -- we don't envision that you'll be responsible for anything more
than what we're currently asking you to do, but Mike will be serving
as a staff liaison to the consumer advisory board, which meets about
quarterly. At the very most it would meet once a month.
And, really, what they do is they provide regulatory oversight
over the vehicle for hire -- this -- this -- this -- was formerly known as
the Public Vehicle for Hire Board. What happened is that the Board of
County Commissioners recognized that there may be some conflict,
may be some protectionism as that -- as that board was currently
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February 17,2010
assembled and was assembled for a number of years.
So they -- they -- they -- they told staff to go back -- and at the
time I had that group, and they told us to go back and revisit that and
come up with our -- our best approach of regulating that business. And
for the past year my group has done that.
What Mike is really going to be doing is, because of the renewal
seasons and how they're opposite of one another from, say, the
Professional Contractors' Boards and the Vehicle for Licensing Board
-- and that staff is already -- it's only a staff of about 1 1/2 FTEs.
What happens is that for an entire month, month and a half, that
staff is -- is pretty loaded down with about 1200 drivers and
companies that they're renewing. During that time Mike's folks are
basically still doing their job. I don't want to say that they're not busy,
but it's not during your renewal season.
So what we felt like is that if -- it's almost going to a relief
pitcher, so to speak, if we talk baseball. In the event that you have
someone that's out sick, vacation, whatnot, Mike's already got a staff
that's trained in the licensing field very similar to what goes on in the
vehicle for hire business, so that he could provide kind of the relief
pictures -- pitchers, and in return when -- when the contractors'
licensing business is extremely busy, he's got two extra staff members
there to fall back on so that if he has someone out sick, if he has
someone that -- he just needs a little extra help, that staff will be
cross- trained.
(Mr. Horn entered the room.)
MR. FRENCH: So it's not as though we'll be bringing those--
those -- that business in front of you. We do have a board that has
already been established. It is a quasi judicial board. Mike will be
providing oversight as far as the staff liaison, but I'm very much
involved with that as well as our Operations Manager, a gentleman by
the name of Ken Kavanski, who is a direct report to me. Ken's been
with me a number of years.
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February 17,2010
And -- and I know as -- Mr. White, he knows that we're also
involved -- my group was also involved with regulating all of the
private utilities in Collier County, so I serve as the Executive Director
for the Collier County Water and Wastewater Authority.
So I -- I'm very multifaceted. I wear a number of different hats,
but all in a regulatory sense. So we felt like it was a great fit. We
followed a lot of different models when we looked -- or we looked at a
lot of different models; one of which that we really liked and that we
really felt like fit our business as far as the licensing side was on the
Broward County side.
And we're still tweaking that. We're still seeing where we can be
more efficient with less burden, of course, on the taxpayers of Collier
County because, even though it's a license that pays it, a license is, in
turn, some sort of tax. So we want to make sure we're getting the best
available product out of the money we have available.
So, again, we are going to be working very closely with Mike
providing him some -- maybe a little bit more oversight than what
they've had in the past. And we're going to be blending some functions
as they make sense.
Now, if we feel like the level of customer service has dropped, if
we feel like there's some -- there's some failure modes based off of the
-- that we're going into some failure modes based off some of the
detectable that we've -- that we -- that we've installed in the process,
we'll pull back, and we'll change those inputs so that it doesn't do
anything more than improve the results that you're seeing from his
staff and, also, from the licensing folks up front.
S' , ., , , , .
o we re -- we re -- agaIn, we re -- we re -- we re -- we re gOIng
through some tough times budget wise, and we're going to make the
most efficiencies we possibly can, not just out of Mike's group, but as
well as the entire Community Development Organization.
So we're really excited about it. We -- we hope that you're
excited as well. We -- we appreciate -- we -- we do look at you as a
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February 17,2010
partner, someone that kind of keeps us in check, gives us honest
feedback, not just as citizens but as professionals.
And we need that because it helps us grow. It -- it gives us our
areas where we need to improve. So we do really look forward to
working with you. I'll leave out some of my business cards for Mike to
hand out at the end of the meeting. And if you'd like to meet with me
privately, if you'd like to sit down with Mike and I, I am happy to
meet with you at any time.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you. I do have a couple of
questions. Last year the Licensing Board approved a license fee
increase based on a financial analysis done by the Billing Department
because the license -- because the licensing was part of the building
fund.
MR. FRENCH: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: And now that that -- the licensing has
been moved to operations, how is -- how is the Licensing Department
being funded? And if that fee increase is still necessary -- and I know
that permit fees were also increased partially in support of -- of
licensing. And will permit fees be addressed now that licensing's been
-- been changed?
MR. FRENCH: What -- what we have told the County Manager,
and certainly what we've advised the Board of County
Commissioners, is that we will do -- is bring in quarterly reports,
quarterly business reports to determine what our overhead costs are.
And we will break it down as far as what's costing how much and in
what department.
To answer your question will those fees be revisited, I intend to
revisit those fees on a quarterly basis to -- to almost do a self check.
That means if we've got to come in annually, if we've got to come in
quarterly, we'll do whatever the board advises us to do as far as the
Board of County Commissioners.
I would tell you that this function is still in a 113 cost center. I'm
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also going to tell you the vehicle for hire function is 111 general fund.
You're not paying for that. That's a -- in other words, there is money --
it's -- that -- that burden for that staff, that's paid for by 111, that's --
that's labor that Mike is getting. In return he's providing some
oversight.
I would tell you you're on the better on that deal. Just as my
oversight -- I am not a burden on 113 whatsoever. I'm -- I'm primarily
paid for out of the utility regulatory trust fund with some general fund
offsite.
So we're looking at everything. Will -- will that result in us
coming back and reducing the cost? At this point, sir, I can't tell you. I
can tell you that I will look at it. That's a promise I will make, and
we'll continue to evaluate that.
It may come back, and I may tell you we're still off. We're --
we're losing money. Or I may come back and say we're breaking even
or, yes, at this point staff would recommend we reduce fees. But until
I really know, it would -- I'd be lying to you. It would be a guess.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. I understand.
Last year the chair and the vice chair of the board participated in
the DSAC subcommittee that went through the financial analysis, and
perhaps once you've completed your first quarter analysis we can do
the same thing this year, have the chair and the vice chair sit down
with you in a private meeting, maybe with you and Mike, and go
through your quarterly report and your quarterly analysis so that we
can report to the rest of the board how the -- the funding and the
financials of this department has been affected by the change.
MR. FRENCH: And as -- I would tell you, Mr. Lykos, that it --
that has already been expressed to the DSAC that we would be
bringing back quarterly reports to let them know where we stand, and
rather than telling you what we want, we're just going to tell you what
we need.
You know, there -- this is what we need to operate our business.
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And if you've got any questions we -- we intend to not just bring
forward the numbers but have full transparency that you could look at
any department and say, okay, what's -- what's my operating cost to
run that type of business, and -- and what's the need, what support do
the -- does this provide.
And -- and -- and I was with Joe. I -- I served as Joe's Operations
Manager, not on the financial side, but for day in and day out
operations as well as with -- on the regulatory element for a number of
years with Collier County.
And one of my other positions -- again, very multifaceted
position -- is that I -- I also serve as Nick Casalanguida, our Interim
CDS Administrator -- I also serve as his Interim Deputy
Administrator. And at this point I am -- I do provide oversight over all
the financials for CDS as far as budgetary as well as -- again, we're
talking integrated operations support.
We not only support this department; we support the Building
Department; we support Code Enforcement; we support Planning and
Zoning and Engineering and -- and Transportation Planning. There's
so -- everyone within the organization at CDS we touch.
So we will bring those numbers back to you. I'll be happy to
bring those back and report. If -- if you'd like to sit down, and if that's
the will of this Board, will of DSAC, this is something that you want
to work out as a Board; certainly you're -- you're welcome to attend.
At least from staffs perspective, we -- we'd have no issue with that
whatsoever.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Great.
MR. NEALE: Mr. Lykos, just one point I'd like to make is you
may want to consider not two of you meeting -- two members of the
board meeting with the administrator in -- in a private meeting
because you may be running afoul of the Sunshine Law.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. NEALE: So in a public meeting, like if you're -- if you
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attend the DSAC meeting together and that's a publicly advertised
meeting, I think you're -- you don't have an issue, but the two of you
meeting privately, I think that would be an issue, so --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Didn't -- didn't we have a special meeting
of the board to go over the financials? We do that --
MR. NEALE: Yeah, and you can do that.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Right.
MR. NEALE: As long as it's an annou -- an announced public
meeting, that's fine, but just the two of you meeting privately with him
I think would be an issue.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Well, thank you for being here.
MR. NEALE: Sure.
MR. FRENCH: And staffs--
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So maybe that's what we'll do.
MR. FRENCH: And staff is cognizant of that as well, and we--
we wouldn't have that meeting.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Great. Thank you.
Any other questions?
MR. JOSLIN: I have -- I have one last question. As of -- the chair
last year -- again, Mr. Lykos and I went to the DSAC meetings, and
part of this -- the increase of the fees was going to be to be able to add
another investigator to Mike's staff. Is this something that's still going
to happen now?
MR. FRENCH: We're aware of that. As we go back and we look
at our current budget guidance from the County Manager's Office and
as -- as it's handed down by the Board of County Commissioners, we
have that on the to do list, so to speak, based off of what our budget
guidance is from the Board of County Commissioners.
My -- my strongest recommendation to Mike as well as to this
board is that we see what that budget guidance in -- is, we go back and
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-- and even though we did increase the fees --
MR. JOSLIN: Uh-huh.
MR. FRENCH: And I'm -- I'm aware that there was -- there was
caveats, so to speak, tied to that -- well, that you approved the fees in
light of hiring another investigator.
MR. JOSLIN: Uh huh.
MR. FRENCH: We're very well aware of the commitment that
was made by the former Administrator as well as by the Building
Director. We intend to fulfill those. But I -- I want to be as realistic as
I possibly can with you and -- and give you the impact to the
organization if I do that. And if -- if the money is there to support it,
I'm going to tell you, and if it's not, I'm -- I'm going to lay it out, and
I'm going to ask for further direction.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
MR. FRENCH: But it's something that I do intend to take action
on. It's just at this point, so long as the board is okay with it, I'd really
like to wait to see what the budget direction is that's handed down
from the Board of County Commissioners to determine how we go
from here.
And I recognize that 113 is an enterprise fund. This -- his -- his --
his carrying costs, so to speak, are -- are supposed to be paid for 100
percent by the licensing fees he collects. I just want to be able to get
my arms completely around the financials. I've had Mike's group for a
little over a month.
And we've -- and as we approach the entire division we're --
we're eating this elephant one bite at a time.
MR. JOSLIN: Got you. Okay. I understand, and I think that's
probably suitable.
MR. FRENCH: But at -- but at this point, like I said, immediately
-- and what I've done is I've infused some staff that's going to be able
to help him on the customer service line and on that front end.
And it's not that I'm trying to just put it all into one bucket; it's
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just simply that these are very, very similar functions, almost identical,
just to two separate industries. And I think that, if -- if anything, it's
going to improve our customer service on the -- not just in this
industry but, also, in the vehicle for hire industry so that we're able to
process those applications and really get a better look at these
applications so that we could bring you a better product because there
may be some things that we're missing. I don't know yet. But as we get
our arms around this we're going to -- we're going to make it better, I
.
promIse.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Thank you.
Any other questions?
MR. JERULLE: When was a vote last year taken to increase the
fees?
MR. FRENCH: I'm -- I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question?
MR. JERULLE: The -- we voted last year to -- to increase the
permit fees. When was that?
MR. FRENCH: I'm sorry. I couldn't tell you. I -- I would defer to
Mr. Ossorio. I was not in the department at that -- at that point. I can
get you the answer if Mike doesn't have it.
MR. JERULLE: Mike, do you remember?
MR. JOSLIN: November or December, I believe he said.
MR. OSSORIO: I believe it was November, I think. The last
meeting was the -- was the approval in November.
MR. JERULLE: November or December, so approximately four
months ago and we haven't hired another investigator. And we -- we
don't know when we're going to hire another investigator, correct?
MR. FRENCH: Well, I wouldn't say I don't know. That budget
guidance will be handed down probably within the next month or two,
but I would tell you, again, on the -- on the staffing side we had beefed
up staff. Maybe it wasn't on the investigator side.
But as -- as a manager I can tell you that until I have an
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opportunity to do my own due diligence in Mike's department, I don't
know that he is -- if -- if he requires more staff on that front-end side --
and putting him in the field might be that investigator we were looking
for because Mike does spend an -- a lot of time in the office
processing licenses, not just -- running down issues, complaints, those
type of things.
One of the staff members that he's getting over is one of my form
-- one of my senior staff that currently serves as a supervisor, so he's
not only picking up a processing clerk, so to speak, that customer
service front end person, but he's also picking up a supervisor to
supervise those people.
And I'm not saying that Mike's going to be that other investigator
in the field, but that -- there -- there may be more need to have him
and his expertise in the field and have super -- more supervision up
front. Again, as I tweak his business model and we look at this, I will
come back to you.
So at this point -- the staff did transfer over about a month ago to
my group, and I make the commitment I will go back, and I -- and will
continue to look at whether or not we can -- we can get that person. If
that's the will of this board, for us to march forward, certainly the
message I'll pass forward up to HR and up to the County Manager's
Office to -- to show that this board approved fees contingent upon
hiring of another officer -- and if that's what we need to do, certainly
that's the -- that's the -- that's where we'll go forward.
Again, I'm not opposed to it. It's just I really want to be able to
give you guys an honest feedback as far as where this business stands.
MR. JOSLIN: What kind of time span are we looking at before
we have an answer on this, just in your estimation?
MR. FRENCH: Sir, I believe that the -- that the budget guidance
is going to come out within the next month or two --
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
MR. FRENCH: -- or less. And so based off of that I should be
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able to probably bring something back.
How often do you meet, Mike? Every -- every other -- every
month?
MR. OSSORIO: We're back every month.
MR. FRENCH: Yeah, so I -- I should be able to bring you
something back next month. I'll be happy to report it to you.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
MR. WHITE: Just for the record, Mr. Chairman, I looked back
through our transcript of the minutes for December 16th. I believe our
prior meeting was October 21. The information you were provided at
the December meeting was that the fee increase would start January 1
and that within a few months, I believe it was several months,
thereafter the new hire would take place.
So we're somewhat within the same time frame for that
individual to hopefully come on-board, and hopefully the numbers
will be there. I'm a little unclear as to whether the quarterly report
you're talking about is for the last quarter of 2009, which is the first
quarter of the business year for the county --
MR. FRENCH: Right. I understand.
MR. WHITE: -- or it's going to be January through March. Or
how is that going to work, Jamie?
MR. FRENCH: I intend to bring that quarterly report probably
the -- the first or second meeting to the board in April sim -- simply
because we're -- that's when Mr. Casalanguida and myself stepped into
the job was on December -- I'm sorry -- on January 4th.
So this was a -- not just an org -- a reorganization of Mike's
group or just at the Building Department. This was a complete
reorganization of CDS. Unfortunately, 13 associates were let go. All
in all, we -- we -- in the transferring out some -- some staff as well, we
went down about 15, 16 positions.
So, again, we -- we -- we are looking at the business more from a
holistic approach rather than a sHoed type approach where you've got
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Building Department, Planning and Zoning, Engineering,
Environmental where we're seeing where similarities exist amongst all
the departments and to find out we may have some free time in
another department, someone that is -- is certainly able to handle some
of Mike's responsibilities where we could go ahead and take on an
FTE from another department that's a little slow.
And that way I don't have to go through the advertising cost, that
way we don't have to go through the interviewing cost. So I -- we
really are approaching this from a business wide and what -- what
makes sense, a business approach versus an individual department
approach or section approach.
So I -- I -- I will be able to meet the deadline as far as the
quarterly report, and I will report back to you next month where we
envision this to go. Again, we have -- I -- I really have -- have --
there's no indicators telling me that I can't move forward and hire
another investigator if, in fact, the business demands it, and that's
certainly where we'll go.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I have -- I just have one more comment
before we let you go. Last fall DSAC, the licensing board, and the
construction industry was told by CDES --
MR. FRENCH: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- that without the fee increases that they
were recommending CDES was going to be shut down, the level of
service would -- would be deplorable, that they wouldn't be able to
operate at the level of service that we were getting, which, quite
frankly, wasn't that great to begin with.
So at a time when our industry has been suffering for years we
took the bold step and endorsed increases for licensing fees, for permit
fees with the understanding that what you're describing that happened,
which is a reorganization of -- of the department, wouldn't occur, that
those fee increases, permit increasing, licensing increases would keep
that from happening --
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February 17,2010
MR. FRENCH: Right.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- to not only maintain the level of
service we were getting but would improve the level of service we
were getting. And then within two months we're told the whole thing's
been reorganized, departments have been moved around, and now we
don't know if we can afford to give you the service that we promised
we were going to give you.
So it's a little bit frustrating. I know I was -- I got many phone
calls and many comments from members of our industry about what
we allowed to happen with the government, and now after sticking our
necks out it happens anyways is a little bit frustrating, quite frankly.
I understand the -- the -- the financial end of running a business,
and I've also learned over the last few years government doesn't
operate the way a business operates, which is, again, quite frustrating,
but we stuck our necks out and supported the request from the
government being told that we would maintain or improve level of
service, and now we're being told that that might not be the case.
MR. FRENCH: Well-- and I'm happy to sit down with you
individually, Mr. Lykos. That's news to me because all indicators from
us, including the CBIA and DSAC, is that the level of service has
increased. I don't want to say by tenfold, by twofold, by onefold.
But every indicator we've received in the last 30 days from this
industry has been phenomenal, and -- and I'll be happy to share with
you the letters we've received, the -- the customer comment cards that
we've put out in the lobby, and not just -- these aren't just blindly
written. We've got people's points of contact. These are -- we -- we've
happily published these in the county newsletter. So we're pretty
proud of -- of what staff has done.
As far as the reorganization and -- and telling you -- and I -- and
if I -- if I have given you any indication that we're not going to hire a
person, let me correct that. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm
saying is that I don't think it would be prudent of staff, until we have a
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February 17, 2010
absolutely good look at the financials and for me to come back to you
and say, "Here we are. Here's what I can afford. Here's what I can't
afford" -- and you're asking me can we revisit fees. Correct me if I'm
wrong.
You're asking me when are we going to hire someone. And then
-- and I don't have the record, but apparently the record reflects that
we would raise the fees in January, which we did, and we would hire
with -- it sounds like about three months afterwards. I'm still within
that range, sir.
So if that's the range you want me to keep I'll get there, but
certainly I -- I don't look at it as though it's a reorganization of Mike's
department or of the Building Department. I can tell you that the
departments -- or the fund that was primarily affected was on the
Planning and Zoning and Engineering side of the house.
Mr. Dunn's organization was reorganized based off of the
business component and how we thought it would be best effective to
-- how we thought we could be most -- most effective to provide a
better level of Customer Service at current staffing levels, so, if
anything, we tweaked his business.
Very few, if any -- and I can't think of any 113 staff other than
those that may have retired or just went through the attrition process --
actually went home. This was primarily on the 131 side.
So, again, I -- I -- I don't -- I'm -- I'm a little surprised as far as the
level of service that you're reporting to me, and if you've -- and if
you've got those -- those stories, if you can give me instances when
the level -- where you could tell me the level of service actually went
down as a result of this, please sit with me. Let me know about it.
Show me -- show me where, and I'll fix it.
But I -- I would tell you from the 113 side of the house, on the
building department side, for lack of a better term, we stayed whole,
and we're -- we're really doing a good job; I've got to believe we are.
If you -- you walk in, and there's excitement throughout the building.
Page 1 7
February 17,2010
And we're not just hearing it from the industry; we're hearing it from
other county departments.
So, again, if -- if I look a little shocked, it's -- it's simply because
this is the first -- you're the first person that's ever told me that, sir.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Well, let me -- let me restate my
comments because they were probably too general. I -- I agree with
you. I've heard from several members of CBIA that they're getting
their permits a lot faster and there's a tremendous amount of
cooperation from Nick and down through the rest of the staff, so I
apologize if I implied --
MR. FRENCH: Sir, no apology necessary.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- it applied to -- to the permitting side.
MR. FRENCH: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: One of the other comments that I know I
get and I know other members of our -- of our board have gotten -- we
have licensed contractors that are out there following the rules, doing
things the right way, and they're being underbid and they're being --
work is being lost to people that are working outside of the scope of
their license or aren't licensed at all, and that is critical to us, not only
to protect the community, but, also, to protect the people that do things
the right way.
And I know that there was a lot of discussion on the members of
the board's part about whether or not raising licensing fees was an
appropriate thing to do under the current economic conditions, and we
were led to believe that by approving those fee increases there would
be another investigator and that would help protect the public, and it
would help protect the people that are licensed and insured and doing
those things.
So there was a time, probably summer of last year, when the
number of citations was approaching 100 a month, and I was getting
comments from people that, "Boy, it seems like you guys are really
getting things done, and -- and there's really -- you know, we can tell
Page 18
February 17,2010
that there's effort being put forth to stop unlicensed activity."
Well, we're down now into the 60s again, and I don't think that
unlicensed activity has gone down that much. I don't think there's a
40-percent drop in unlicensed activity. So our members -- the
members of this board approved fee increases based on the
department's ability to add more investigators on the street to help go
after those people that are doing things illegally.
MR. FRENCH: And --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: And that's what we need to see.
MR. FRENCH: Sure. And -- and just to let you know, Mr.
Lykos, I have every intent to go back to look at looking -- increasing
the number of investigators on the street. And the industry that you're
speaking of, the industry that you regulate here, is -- and this almost
solidifies my decision -- or our decision that we blended these two
functions.
What you're telling me -- and I could -- I could pull it on the
record -- is exactly what the vehicle for hire industry -- you've got
unlicensed contractors that's working against those that pay these --
these -- and their licensing -- and I will tell you as a company you pay
several hundred dollars just to register your company and a couple
hundred bucks per driver. And there's a criminal background check,
credit check. There's a number of other checks that go on in this, very
similar to what you do in this industry that -- you've got folks out there
that are -- that are really trying to make an honest living and follow
the rules, and they're being underbid.
They're being -- not just underbid by competition but underbid by
those people that are coming in from out of county that maybe aren't
following the rules or aren't -- aren't licensed. So that's why, again, we
thought the two functions worked so well together.
And, again, we have -- please don't -- please don't think that we
haven't increased your staff as far as your regulatory ability from the
front end. We've added two staff members to this group already, so
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February 17,2010
you almost got -- we're going to go back and we're going to look at an
investigator. Let's say you get your investigator. But you got two other
staff members that this department currently isn't paying for that's
helping you out, so we've -- we -- we're on-board with you.
We're -- we're of -- we're of like minds as far as from the staff
members. From staffs level, we're -- we know exactly what you want
from us. We know exactly where the industry -- what the industry
expects, and we want to be more of a partner. I mean, granted, we
have to regulate, but we certainly want to be a partner to DSAC.
We certainly want to be a partner to this board. We want to be a
partner to the industry, those that are following rules. And those that
aren't, we want to make sure that Mike's got enough people on the
street, not just to make sure they follow the rules, but, also, to fulfill
our contract -- our contractual agreements with the municipalities that
he works with.
So we're on-board. We're going to go -- we're going to -- we're
going to follow your direction. And, also, if I -- if I look to increase
the number of investigators, what I may bring back to you -- and I --
and I don't know, but just because I don't advertise a position or just
because I don't hire someone new into the county doesn't mean I
couldn't increase investigators from another department that may be
going through some reorganization or someone that, you know, might
be part of a -- part of a reduction in force exercise. I -- I don't know.
So, really, until the board hands out that budget guidance, I think
it would not be prudent of us to move forward to -- to find out exactly
where my hiring pool is and -- and find out if there's qualified staff
that's already on county payroll that we could fit into the position.
And whether it be two part time positions that makes up one
FTE, you're still -- we're still getting the increased activity as far as
oversight on the street. So we're -- we're committed to you, and we're
going to make sure it's right.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Great. Thank you.
Page 20
February 17,2010
MR. FRENCH: Okay. I'm happy to answer any other questions
that you might have for me. And, again, I'll leave my business cards
with Mike. I'll -- I'm going to hang out for a little while here if you
don't mind.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: You're welcome. Thank you.
MR. FRENCH: And please feel free to call on me. I appreciate
the opportunity to speak with you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: And thank you very much for your time
this morning. We appreciate it.
MR. FRENCH: And we really look forward to working with you;
we really do.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All right. I need an approval of the
minutes.
MR. JOSLIN: Motion to approve the minutes.
MR. LANTZ: Second.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in favor?
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
All right. Discussion, end of the month report.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, just a quick note on that end of
the month report, which, if you look down on the Contractor
Licensing citations and you scroll over to January and you go back
down, you'll see -- you'll see a little reduction from fourteen -- we
Page 21
February 17, 2010
were running fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, fourteen thousand, and then it
went down to eleven nine. You'll see that on January, and I think that
was due from the two weeks that it was -- it was actually absolutely
freezing cold.
So I think there was a trend that there was no unlicensed
contractors out there, so I think that was the trend. It was pretty cold
for that January, that two week period. So, actually, I looked at the
citations. We're up this month, so we should see a spike.
MR. JOSLIN: They were probably all working inside.
MR. OSSORIO: May be.
MR. JOSLIN: Yeah.
MR. OSSORIO: Which one? My investigators or the
contractors?
MR. JOSLIN: The contractors.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: The contractors.
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah. And just to make sure we -- we're on the
same page -- and Jamie has been very supportive with our group, and
we're happy to work for the operations, and we're happy to work for
the county, and we'll do what we can to support the City of Naples and
Marco Island as a whole.
I will tell you when you talk about financing, licensing makes the
bulk of their money in renewals. So, yes, January the new effect came
in, but you really shouldn't see a huge spike or a huge difference or --
or revenue coming in 'til -- until September. That's when we are going
to be renewing 6,000 state and local con -- 6,000 state contractors this
year because it's an even year, and we're going to be renewing the
local contractors in September. So this -- you'll see a big spike in
September -- or leading up to September. Any questions?
MR. LANTZ: I'm just curious. How do the -- these numbers
relate to the budget? And is it possible to get it so we can in the future
get it, you know, where you say January and then show us what
you've actually done as opposed to what's been budgeted just so we
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February 17, 2010
know if we're on track or not?
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah. I will coor -- I'll coordinate with, you
know, Jamie and his group, and we'll come up with something, but I
don't know if we had that capability in CE Class to do so, but I know
that CityView's coming on-board soon, our new software system that's
going to give us some more data and feedback. So I'll make sure we
put a note, and we'll talk to Jamie's office, and we'll get something to
you.
MR. LANTZ: But are we close to -- you know, when we did --
did the budget a few months ago, we got, you know, a breakdown
every month. Are we close to what you had budgeted or--
MR. OSSORIO: That I couldn't tell you, but I'll make a promise
to you that I will sit down with Jamie's office and -- and Ken, my
direct boss, and we'll come up with something.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Do you have an idea when City View's
coming online?
MR. OSSORIO: I'm on the CityGroup task force, and I look
forward to seeing City View within three or more months hopefully --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: -- on Phase 3.
MR. FRENCH: Just real quick I wanted to give you some
feedback. Again, Jamie French for the record. We're working very
closely with CityView right now. As the -- as we've gone through--
and Joe has left the organization as well as Mr. Molly -- what has
happened is that we're -- we've sat back down with CityView.
We need to make sure that they're understanding what staffs, for
lack of a better term, our pain is; in other words, what's holding us up
in the system where we have some stability issues and what our real
needs are.
And one of the things that we did -- Mike's group was not
originally involved with the user's group that we created. We put Mike
on there because we needed the vendor to understand what
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February 17,2010
contractors' licensing needed as far as -- I mean, they're -- they're a
client of the system.
So we do expect that they'll be coming back to us shortly. We're
working with a gentleman by the name of David Arrowsmith, who
was their executive vice president -- or -- or their -- their operations --
vice president of operations out of -- out of Canada, British Columbia,
Canada, their home office. We've identified a number of needs.
One of the other things that we're also doing is we're trying to --
what one of my groups that I have currently under me is the county
GIS, or addressing group. We want to bring in a little bit of GIS
technology and some mapping into maybe -- not just tracking where
Mike's got more activity than not as far as unlicensed contractors but,
also, with routing and those type of things. So we -- we want to
explore. Again, we want to -- I want to explore every efficiency that's
out there.
And -- and just to let you know, my -- my background previous
to government 6 1/2 years ago was private sector. I've -- I've -- I've got
a number of family members that are currently in this industry, and
I've got a family member that was a building official, I've got a family
member that is -- that's -- you know, was a home builder, so it -- I
grew up -- I can tell you as a kid I toted block, I set trusses, and I
poured forms. I -- I -- the calluses are gone, but I promise I don't -- I
don't -- I don't forget any of it.
So I do know the -- the -- the industry. I'm very familiar with it. I
grew up here as a kid myself. But we want to install every technology
that's out there, not just out of this system, but I want to look at other
systems that we currently support from an enterprise approach for
county, and -- and I want him to have all those technologies in the
field, not just for him, but for code enforcement, for -- for any officer
or for any regulatory agent, so to speak, that needs a tool.
Whether it be damage assessment after a hurricane or whether it
be daily tools that they need, if we've already got that tool on the shelf
Page 24
February 17,2010
and we can build them an application, let's do it. Let's -- let's -- let's
challenge ourselves every day.
So CityView is just one of the tools that Mike will be using. And
I'm big on continuous improvement and constant involvement. I -- I
can't tweak the results unless I tweak the inputs, so we're going to --
I'm going to constantly be -- be challenging Mike in giving me
feedback on CityView; how is it doing; how's the tools we provided
you.
But -- but, again, to make a long story short here, is -- is simply
that we are going to have Mike more involved with CityView so that
he can give you feedback on what's going on as far as how they're
evolving, if they're going to be able to address their needs because,
again, I don't just want transparency in the numbers; I want
transparency in the business operation too.
And so if he's not being properly supported or if -- or if the
system is crashing or if the application just is not right, no matter what
the tool is, whether it be GIS or CityView, we -- we're going to give
you the feedback on that and let you know and let you know what
we're doing to correct it.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Thank you.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you again.
MR. LANTZ: Thanks.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Workshop information.
MR. OSSORIO: 2006 is when -- the last time we did our
workshop for -- for a -- to look at prospectively redoing the contractor
licensing ordinance, and this is our first step. I wanted to know -- get
some feedback from the board to see if it's possible that we could start
doing this workshop.
I have some things in mind. I know Jamie has some things in
mind for the ordinance. And I just want to know if it's -- if it's okay
with you, I want to schedule workshops, advertise it, and maybe have
input from -- from CBIA or whatever it is that we did last time in
Page 25
February 17,2010
2006.
MR. JOSLIN: I think probably a workshop to get together to
maybe analyze some of the licensing -- licenses that are avail -- that
are out there now and either uncondense them or condense them to
whereas we understand what each one does. There's a lot of
overlapping licenses, it seems like, and a lot of things that -- like the
tree stump removals and the tree trimming removals, and people that
trim trees and just can cut grass -- I mean, some of these can be put
together or ganged into one or maybe not -- or understood maybe
better.
MR. OSSORIO: Well, I'm all open to looking at each and every
single category.
MR. JOSLIN: Right.
MR. OSSORIO: But, actually, my thought was -- is that, you
know, I would want to get more stringent. The State of Florida has--
has implemented a program, which everyone now knows that if you're
a state contractor, if you are a convicted felon or -- or -- or have a
felony, you must notify the state within so many business days starting
October 1st of last year.
So I'm looking at a number of things. The state did make some --
I think Mr. Lykos and I had a conversation before. The state has
changed a couple of things in State Statute 49 I want to look at. I want
to tweak the individual categories. You know, tree trimming -- I don't
necessarily -- a big proponent of combining a couple of different
things --
MR. JOSLIN: Right.
MR. OSSORIO: That's not fair to the person that has a license
and pays for a license and -- I want to tweak it, but my direction is --
is enforcement. You know, maybe we can raise the fee for unlicensed
activity, if we can, to narrow down the -- a couple of things in the
ordinance I think need to be changed, the owner builder exemptions
and whatnot.
Page 26
February 17,2010
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. WHITE: Mr. Chairman.
MR. JOSLIN: I'm all in favor of it, sure.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Mr. White.
MR. WHITE: Thank you. I just would -- given the idea here of
scheduling a workshop -- I know we typically get our packets for the
regular meetings about a week or so ahead of time. I expect there's
going to be quite a bit more volume of information we're going to be
asked to absorb and process and would see if it would be possible to
have at least a couple of weeks' lead time in having that information to
us; that is, the staff recommendations so that we can read through it
and have our questions prepared and be most efficient at the actual
workshop meeting. Does that sound like a good idea and doable or--
MR. JOSLIN: I believe in the past, Michael, what we've done is
we've given out -- or we've had staff make up copies of the ordinance
which was passed out for the meeting so that each individual board
member had a copy of that ordinance and could review it on their own
or read ahead of the -- and see how it pertains to each license and each
category and then go through a discussion process as far as the
individual items or breakdowns of each license or, like you say, other
things that you want to discuss and add into it. Wasn't that the way it
was done before?
MR. OSSORIO: Well, typically --
MR. JOSLIN: Rather than bring -- rather than bring it to the
board meeting and then try to discuss it here as you hand it to them.
MR. OSSORIO: Well-- well, typically, what I -- what I
envisioned is that if the board wants to go ahead and look at the -- the
workshop and -- and revamping the ordinance -- I think it's time; it's
been four years -- is that I will sit down with the County Attorney and
Pat Neale.
We will go over what the county position is, and then we will
Page 27
February 17,2010
work something in there. And then we will schedule the workshop,
and you will be -- we would have a public meeting. I'll probably have
a table and chair here. You have a copy of the ordinance. It will be
publicized. If any -- any CBIA member or -- or anyone in the public
want -- wishes to communicate on the -- on the ordinance, they -- they
surely can. And then we will go through what the county attorney,
myself, and Pat Neale thinks is appropriate to go ahead and revisit the
ordinance. That's what I envision.
MR. NEALE: What had also been done in the past is that the--
the board was asked for input on particular areas that the board had
noticed over the -- over the term of your service that were thorny
issues, things that came up again and again, and bring those up as -- as
potential ways of either adopting them as an ordinance amendment or
adopting them as a change in procedure for the board.
So those are the other things that -- that gives it a good time to do
that. And, you know, as -- and as Michael says, it's been -- it's been
four years since it's been done in the past, so it's certainly time for the
board to -- to look at this.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: And we've kept over the years -- Ian and myself
has met privately, and we've made notes, comments about the
ordinance that needs to be changed, or we -- so there's a -- we have a
folder, a running folder of what we think that needs to be changed, and
then it's up to the board and the Board of County Commissioners if--
if they do so.
But I think the first step is to get the okay from the board to -- to
proceed, and then I will sit down with Robert Zachary and myself and
Pat Neale, and we'll go through our -- our to-do list.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Do we need a formal vote on that, or can
we just --
MR. OSSORIO: I would if you --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
Page 28
February 17,2010
MR. OSSORIO: -- if -- if it's possible.
MR. WHITE: Okay. I make a motion to approve the staffrequest
with the stipulation that the board members be provided the staff
recommendation proposal two weeks in -- before the scheduled
meeting.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: We have a motion.
MR. JOSLIN: I'll second the motion too. How about a copy of
the ordinance?
MR. WHITE: That, I assume, would be included.
MR. OSSORIO: Yes. Fifteen cents a page, though.
MR. WHITE: Make mine double-sided.
MR. JOSLIN: Put that in general fund, would you?
MR. OSSORIO: We'll take care of it. I'll make sure that we'll
have a -- if it's been approved, then Robert Zachary and myself will sit
down and go over it, and then I'll -- what I'll do is I'll get a copy of the
ordinance, and we'll highlight a couple of things. We'll make some
notes for you so that you have something ahead of time.
And then I would appreciate it, Mr. Lykos, if you could tell the
CBIA or have -- let them know that we are going to have a workshop
upcoming with the licensing board and -- so that we get the word out.
I want to make sure we get it right.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. I have a -- I have a motion; I have
a second. Any other discussion? All those in favor?
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
Page 29
February 17,2010
All right. Michael, we talked briefly. How close are we to having
a full board? We have two more members to fill the board. Can you
give us an update on that?
MR. OSSORIO: I just -- I -- we have communicated with the
City of Naples, and they are in the final process. As a matter of fact,
today, I think, they have a board meeting -- or a city council meeting.
They are going to prospectively approve a board member. Once that
gets approved, then it gets forwarded to the Board of County
Commissioners for a final adoption.
So I anticipate having another contractor on the -- a City of
Naples contractor on the board within our next meeting. We did
advertise for a consumer for the unincorporated Collier County, and
that's advertised in -- I think the -- I think the Naples Daily News
picked that up. So hopefully we'll get some response. So we're getting
there.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Good. Thank you.
MR. WHITE: My understanding, Mr. Chairman, is that Mr.
Casalanguida, in fact, is on the agenda before city council today, so
hopefully --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Great. Good.
MR. OSSORIO: Is he? Good.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. The first item I have under new
business will be the addition to the agenda to authorize the orders for
penalties.
Ian, if you wouldn't mind, could you just address the board and
just explain to everybody exactly what this is that you need us to do
today?
MR. JACKSON: These are civil citations that were issued by
investigators that have not been paid. And once the process been --
process has been followed through to this point -- this is the -- the last
step in the process in the payment of these citations.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So you need us to make a Motion to
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February 17, 2010
authorize me to sign these orders for you, correct?
MR. JACKSON: Correct.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. JOSLIN: I will make a motion that the chairman signs the
orders to pay the civil penalties for any outstanding issues that are
before us or have been before us.
MR. JERULLE: Second, Jerulle.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Any discussion?
MR. WHITE: Just so I un -- just so I understand the process,
what'll happen after these orders are signed?
MR. JACKSON: Potential liens placed on property.
MR. NEALE: These can be recorded in the -- in the public
record, and the county typically does so that if the violator -- if they
haven't paid their -- their fine, if they go to sell a piece of real estate or
whatever, it will get picked up in a title search, and hopefully the title
agent would see fit to collect it at closing and get it paid.
MR. WHITE: Okay. So it acts kind of like a claim of lien?
MR. NEALE: Yeah.
MR. WHITE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Any other questions or comments?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in favor?
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
Page 31
February 17, 2010
And, Ian, I'll sign these after the meeting, okay?
MR. JACKSON: Yep.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Thank you.
All right. Under new business, our first order is -- I apologize for
mispronouncing this name. Is it Dusan Skoric?
MR. SKORIC: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Would you please come up, sir, and be
.
sworn In.
(Witnesses sworn.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Mr. Skoric, you're contesting your
citation; is that correct?
MR. SKORIC: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Mr. Ganguli.
MR. GANGULI: Mr. Lykos, the citation was issued entirely
based on the postcard that you have in you evidence packet. It's self
explanatory, full service general contracting. If there's anything I can
add, it's that, unfortunately, we've seen this before.
This company, Idearc, has distributed postcards like this
advertising contracting trades that have been brought before this board
that you have adjudicated in various ways depending on the
circumstance, but the -- the stem of my citation is entirely based on --
on what you see in front of you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Skoric?
MR. SKORIC: Well, the -- I first want to thank you for giving
me a chance to explain my side of the story. I registered my handyman
business in Lee County on -- in November of'08, and ever since I
registered my business I have two to three calls a day -- a week,
actually, offering me all kind of advertisement, and I always denied
any kind of that.
And in this case -- particular case with Idearc Company, you
know, they were telling me, like, "We can bring you four to five
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February 17, 2010
thousand dollars a month businesses."
I said, "Whatever you're offer -- offering, you just send me that in
written. If I like it, I will sign it."
I never signed any contract with them. I never did anything else
with them except in -- I don't remember exactly. In April or May when
I received first statement that I have to pay something they are doing
for me, I called the company, and I told them I never did sign
anything. I never agreed of any advertisement with them, and they just
continued sending me statements every month 'til October.
It accumulated to $700. Then I e-mailed them -- and I have the --
I don't know if you have that. I -- I submitted that to you. Ie-mailed
them to stop doing anything for me because they're just causing
trouble because on October 8th of last year I had a call that I was, you
know, improperly advertising business in Collier County.
That was the first time that I realized that they're actually doing
something. And since then, you know, that -- I consider that, like,
predatory activity of -- of, you know, a desperate company who is
trying to -- to extort money from -- from people who are trying to
survive, you know.
I registered my business in Lee County. I never did any activities,
any businesses and -- in Collier County, never ever, and I never
received any call from any -- any person in Lee County or anywhere
else asking me to do something for -- for them.
I do, you know, have several accounts that I do, you know, home
watches and, you know, stuff like this that I can do under a handyman
business in -- in Lee County.
Since October since they received and acknowledged my letter
that -- you know, I e-mailed it. I am asking them to stop doing
anything. In October it was -- it was $700. Since October I'm still
receiving every month statement -- it -- it came up to $4,700 that I
owed.
I mean, I don't know -- I -- I just have no idea how to get rid of --
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February 17,2010
of -- of them. I don't know if they still continue sending those fliers or
whatever they -- they did, but, you know, I just have no idea how to
stop doing that.
In -- in four months -- in the last four months, from 700 it grew
up to -- to $4,700 that they're charging me for something that I never
signed for, never asked for, never did any agreement with them for
anything.
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Chairman, I have a question.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yes, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Ganguli, how is it that you came up with the
postcard or a copy of the postcard in our packet?
MR. GANGULI: The source of the postcard, Mr. Joslin, I'm --
I'm -- I can't definitively say, but I'm guessing one of the licensed
contractors in Collier County turned it into our office to investigate.
MR. JOSLIN: Uh-huh. Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, just for -- just for the record, I
just want to make sure that -- advertising is a big part of licensing,
especially if you're a licensed contractor and you see an advertisement
or -- or if you see something in your mail -- we periodically get those.
You know, we get those a lot, advertising Yellow Pages, phone books,
Naples Daily News, postcards.
It's pretty -- unfortunately, this particular gentleman that -- he's
corresponded with the company the day before the meeting of the
citation with Mr. Ganguli, and Mr. Ganguli's, you know, called him
the day before. So it would be nice if I had something showing that
he's communicated with the company weeks or months before.
The citation was issued on the 8th. He's notified the company on
the 7th. Rob called him on the 7th or the 6th or whenever Mr. Ganguli
did. So, on that premise I decided to let the board decide to hear this
case.
It's very similar to the last case, and it's -- it's up to the board's
pleasure of what they wish to do.
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February 17,2010
MR. JERULLE: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yes, sir.
MR. JERULLE: Michael, I show that -- that Rob called him on --
on the -- on the 9th -- excuse me -- on the 8th, and then -- and then --
then he's called or e-mailed them on the 9th, the day after, not -- not
the day before, right? Am I missing something?
MR. SKORIC: No, it's on the 7th. I -- I have it.
MR. LANTZ: The pages are not in order.
MR. JERULLE: No, if you look at the bott -- on the bottom -- all
right. I see it now.
MR. OSSORIO: If you look at the citation, the citation was
issued -- issued October 8th, '09, and if you look at this
correspondence, if this e-mail.scorrect.itsaysl0/7/2009.sowe.re
looking at the day before.
MR. JERULLE: Oh, so they responded to him on the 9th. I see it.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Mr. Ganguli, when was it that you made
a phone call to Mr. Skoric regarding this postcard?
MR. GANGULI: Mr. Lykos, normally -- I can't answer that
definitively, but I would guess either one day or two days prior to the
meeting. I can't answer that for you. When I actually contacted him to
come in for the meeting for the citation issuance, I wouldn't be able to
answer that.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I -- I think the question that's -- that we're
trying to deal with is what was it that prompted Mr. Skoric's
communication with this company . Was it your phone call to him that
you were in possession of this postcard, or was it that he was fed up
with getting invoices and he was disturbed that there was untrue
advertising about his company going on in Collier County and Lee
County? That's really what the board has to make a decision on.
MR. SKORIC: Well, the --
MR. WHITE: Well, the fact, Mr. Chairman--
MR. SKORIC: If I can add one more thing, actually, I didn't
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February 17,2010
know. When I received that call, it -- it was just something about
advertising. I didn't know. But both, you know, I was fed up with--
with them and the call that I received from Collier County for
something that I had no idea that's happening.
And another thing, when I -- when he showed me that flier that
says "general contractor," I never ever introduced myself to anyone as
a general contractor, only as a handyman. So both, you know, I was
fed up and I received the call that -- something about advertising my --
my business prompted me to finally, you know, have something in
written (sic) because I did call them before, a long time, during last
summer, but, you know, they would always put me on hold for 10, 15,
20 minutes, never had a chance to talk to -- to a real person.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I understand.
Mr. White.
MR. WHITE: My point was simply that I view the conversation
with the county as being the first time the respondent was aware of the
fact that there was any kind of advertising in Collier County and,
additionally, that his -- his e-mail indicates that he had attempted to
make prior contact by phone.
So I just wanted to make sure that our factual determination isn't
limited to the idea of timing alone but, also, the timing of him
knowing that, in fact, there was some type of advertising ongoing, so
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Mr. Skoric, did -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.
MR. JERULLE: Mr. Skoric, you -- in your e-mail, you say
you've received bills since April or May of --
MR. SKORIC: April or May, I'm not quite sure.
MR. JERULLE: What happened with those bills?
MR. SKORIC: I never paid anything, and they just kept--
MR. JERULLE: So you got a bill, and -- and you didn't pay it
and you got another bill?
MR. SKORIC: And they just keep piling it up.
Page 36
February 17, 2010
MR. JERULLE: And you weren't concerned about what was
going to happen with your credit rating or -- or somebody turning that
over to a collection?
MR. SKORIC: Well, I -- I did not, actually.
MR. JERULLE: So you just didn't do -- do anything with it --
MR. SKORIC: Well, you know --
MR. JERULLE: -- except try to call?
MR. SKORIC: Right.
MR. JOSLIN: You're holding something, and I assume that -- is
that a copy of one of the bills?
MR. SKORIC: Yeah.
MR. JOSLIN: Do you have bills that go back to the April time or
maybe the Mayor June time when they would have billed you,
apparently?
MR. SKORIC: Yeah, I -- I didn't bring those. I can submit those
also. I can bring them to you.
MR. JOSLIN: That's not going to help me.
MR. JERULLE: Yeah.
MR. WHITE: Do those reflect billing from the time frame of last
year? In other words, do they list, "You owe us for April. You owe us
this much for May"?
MR. SKORIC: Yes. Yes.
MR. WHITE: Is that on those bills?
MR. SKORIC: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: Is that something that maybe you'd want to submit
as evidence so we can take a look at it just to maybe clarify some of
the -- the billing efforts as far as what they billed you for and then
your communication with them? You're more than welcome to do
that, and I'm sure the board probably would look at it.
MR. SKORIC: Do you want me to bring it to --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I need a motion to move this into
evidence.
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February 17,2010
MR. LANTZ: So moved, Lantz.
MR. JOSLIN: Second, Joslin.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in favor?
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
MR. NEALE: Let the clerk mark it, please. Make it Respondent's
1.
(Respondent's Exhibit 1 was marked for identification.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: You're welcome.
MR. SKORIC: Okay. Here is another one. I have one more just
with a list of, I guess, since -- a list since July charges that they
submitted.
MR. NEALE: I need that one moved in also, Mr. Lykos. He's got
another one.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yeah, we need a motion to have that --
MR. JERULLE: So moved, Jerulle.
MR. LANTZ: Second.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
MR. NEALE: Respondent's 2.
(Respondent's Exhibit 2 was marked for identification.)
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Neale, these -- I was looking at the pamphlet.
Is this the -- the same company, Idearc, Media -- didn't we have this
case before us once before?
MR. NEALE: I'm not sure whether it was Idearc. It was a similar
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February 17, 2010
set of facts, though.
MR. JOSLIN: Similar. Okay. It sounds familiar; that's why I was
wondering.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, I -- and I think Mr. Ossorio may -- may
know that better.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Excuse me one second. I failed to get a
vote on entering this into evidence.
MR. NEALE: Oh, okay.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So I have -- I have a motion. I have a
second. All those in favor.
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
Mr. Ossorio.
MR. OSSORIO: I can't tell you to -- I have no idea. It could be
the same company; it could not be the same company.
MR. GANGULI: Mr. Joslin, it's the same company.
MR. JOSLIN: It is. I kind of thought so. The reason why is
because it seems like the same scenario happened to the same -- or a
different person at one point. I'm not really certain, though, what the
outcome was as far as what we did.
MR. OSSORIO: I believe the citation was upheld.
MR. JOSLIN: I believe, yeah.
MR. GANGULI: Uh-huh.
MR. HORN: But you also found that gentleman doing work.
MR. GANGULI: Mr. Horn, I believe this occurred twice in front
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February 17,2010
of this board. The -- the second person was caught on ajob site by me
and cited, was cited for advertising again, and the same person was
arrested during a sting operation that we did later on. I believe the first
one may -- may have been dismissed.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, I believe so.
MR. OSSORIO: It was -- it was -- unfortunately, I don't want to
-- it was kind of ironic. The same advertisement that the gentleman
was saying that it wasn't his the State of Florida used to -- for a sting
operation that he got arrested for.
So I have no objections if -- if we want to dismiss this citation,
but we will -- we will keep this advertisement on record, though.
MR. WHITE: I'd just note for the record, Mr. Chairman, that in
the bill that's proceeding to my left the months of the prior billing and
dollar amounts are on the back of one of the sheets, Page 2 of 3.
MR. JOSLIN: Wow. I don't know what you've gotten yourself
into, but that's a lot of dollars.
MR. OSSORIO: One of the things that this gentleman should do
is, if he feels like this is a scan -- a scam operation, he needs to do two
things: One, sit down and really think about is that this is
advertisement that's been going on since October of last year. Has he
benefitted from the advertisements? He -- he will only know if he's got
calls from doing work outside his handyman license; and, two, he
needs to sit down and if he feels like -- if this is a scam operation,
surely I will give him the information to call the economic crimes unit
so that he can make a complaint on the company itself.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Well, to me there -- there's two issues.
One is this advertising went on month after month after month, and
you allowed it to go on. You didn't pay for it, but you allowed it to go
on, which means you were aware of it, and I think that you have some
culpability because you were aware of advertising being done for your
company outside of the scope of your license. That's one issue.
The second issue is you didn't take any action on this, at least any
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February 17,2010
action you can prove to us, until after you were contacted by our local
licensing department and then a citation was sent to you.
MR. SKORIC: No, I didn't know that I'm going to get any --
sorry -- any -- any citation at the time when -- when I had that call
from -- from the Collier County. And, you know, I -- I just didn't
respond except on the phone call I -- with the phone calls that I made
to that company trying to reach the real person and talk to some -- to
somebody.
But, as you can see, I have no idea if that -- actually, the first
time when I realized that any kind of advertising is out there was when
I saw that flier or whatever, the postcard was -- that was the first time
that I realized that there was any -- any kind of advertisement out
there. You know, I --
MR. WHITE: And --
MR. SKORIC: I never did any work, and I -- you know, I swore
that I -- I will tell the truth, nothing but the truth. I never ever did any
work outside of my, you know, description of the stuff -- stuff that I
can do as a -- as a handyman, and especially I did not introduce
myself as a general contractor to anyone.
And I never did any -- any, literally any, business in Collier
County, and I never received any single phone call from anyone that
supposedly received that postcard advertising my business.
MR. WHITE: I appreciate the information, much of which you
had stated before, Mr. Skoric, but the -- the question I have is, at any
time prior to Collier County contacting you and showing you the card
that was being mailed, had you ever seen that card before?
MR. SKORIC: No. You know, what I was doing--
MR. WHITE: Were you aware that the card was being mailed
and provided to people in Collier County based upon the bills you had
already received, these -- these invoices? Were you aware that they
were being mailed in Collier County?
MR. SKORIC: No, I -- I --
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February 17,2010
MR. WHITE: Thank you.
MR. SKORIC: -- did not. You know, I -- I was just throwing that
-- everything that was coming except -- you know, I would check -- I
don't have all the bills that they have sent me. I was just throwing that
to the garbage. I didn't pay attention until, you know, everything came
to the point that where -- where, you know, it surprised me that
suddenly from October to -- to this time, the end of January, it grew
up from -- from $700 to $4,700 that I supposedly owe them.
MR. JERULLE: Excuse me.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Go ahead.
MR. JERULLE: Mr. Skoric, did you sign up for -- do you
recognize this company at all in any other thing that you may have
signed up for or done?
MR. SKORIC: No, I did not sign any single paper with them.
MR. JERULLE: Because -- because the description is different
for some of the billing dates. The May billing date description is
different than the June billing dates, so it looks like they -- they
provided a different service in one month than they did in another
month, and then the amounts change from month to month. So did you
-- did you --
MR. SKORIC: Well, I didn't pay attention to that at all.
MR. JERULLE: Did you apply for the Yellow Pages?
MR. SKORIC: No.
MR. JERULLE: Because they're -- they're billing you for
something other than just the card, it appears, so I'm wondering if -- if
this is attached to something else you may have done and you were
unaware of.
MR. SKORIC: Absolutely not. I never signed anything. I had
conversation with a lot of -- a lot of advertising companies, and my
response was always the same. I never do especially any --
MR. JERULLE: You don't advertise on the web site?
MR. SKORIC: No.
Page 42
February 17,2010
MR. JERULLE: Not in the Yellow Pages?
MR. SKORIC: Absolutely not.
MR. JERULLE: Do you advertise anywhere else?
MR. SKORIC: Nowhere.
MR. JERULLE: Because the description has changed here, and
the amounts have changed. I don't know what that means, but --
MR. JOSLIN: I have -- I have one question of Mr. Ganguli, or
maybe also you, Mr. Skoric. The -- the postcard -- now, if another
contractor presented this postcard to you, I would have to assume that
the contractor may have lost a job or maybe was being bid against or
possibly saw this man working on a job and knew he wasn't licensed
and had a postcard and that's how you ended up with the postcard to
go and investigate this. Is that how this came about?
MR. NEALE: I -- I'd have trouble following that assumption and
fining someone. I think that's -- that's a big stretch because there's
nothing in evidence to show that at all.
MR. JOSLIN: Well, we have a postcard in front of us, and I'm
wondering how Mr. Ganguli got ahold of it, and he said, well,
probably because a contractor gave it to him or --
MR. GANGULI: Mr. Joslin, it's commonplace -- licensed
contractors turn in unlicensed contractors to us all the time to initiate
investigations. It's -- it's very common.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: A contractor could have got it in the mail
at his residence, and that's why he turned it in.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So that's --
MR. GANGULI: And that specific scenario has occurred.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay. So it wasn't a case of someone seeing
someone on ajob in that case. Okay. Also, I have in front of me a
November 4th invoice that shows that you were sent, to Duke's Home
Care, a letter showing that you had products that were -- were
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February 17,2010
exclusive mailers issued on 5/6th, 5/7th -- I'm sorry -- May, June, July,
August, September, Oct -- and Oct -- October 9th for $62 a month.
You weren't aware of this?
MR. SKORIC: I truly didn't pay any attention to -- to -- to those
statements. I was just open -- I would just open it and disregard it.
Some of those I would throw to -- to the garbage because I know for
sure that I never ever signed or agreed to anything with -- with them.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
MR. HORN: Mr. Chair.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yes, sir.
MR. HORN: Regardless of which way we go on this on the
decision, I was hoping maybe we could add a stipulation to whatever
that is re -- requiring this gentleman, either personally or through an
attorney, to make sure these fliers stop coming to Collier County
either way that we go, sir.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yeah, that's a good request.
MR. HORN: Thank you.
MR. NEALE: I -- I would suggest to the board just -- it's
something I would be willing to work with Michael on -- that we find
out a little bit more about Idearc. And I just did a quick piece of
research. Idearc has since gone through bankruptcy, and they were
now on the -- out in the world as SuperMedia. And they are a former
division of Verizon.
So I would suggest that the board direct myself and potentially
the staff to take a little bit more look because I have a feeling this -- if
it's happened three times already -- those are the only ones this board's
heard about, and if it's a pattern --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Right.
MR. NEALE: -- that is, in fact, a scam, I think the board should
know about it and potentially staff should know about it so that the
community can be notified that there is this scam going on, if that -- if
it is, in fact, such a case.
Page 44
February 17,2010
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I agree.
MR. WHITE: In fact, that is right on the cover page that they're
now SuperMedia, so good work.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So what's the pleasure of the board?
MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that we not uphold the Citation
No. 5133 to Mr. Dusan Skoric.
MR. WHITE: Second.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I have a motion; I have a second. Any
further discussion?
MR. JERULLE: Well, if--
MR. HORN: Yeah, if the motioner and the second would agree
to it, that we add the stipulation that the plaintiff make sure that this --
these media stop being sent to Collier County, whether personally or
through an attorney, so that this doesn't come in front of this board
.
agaIn.
MR. WHITE: I -- I'd be willing to consider it if I thought he had
any means to actually implement it. I'd -- I'd be concerned about us, if
he didn't do it, somehow having to track all of that information and
then bring him back because we found out he wasn't able to do it for
whatever reason, because they have more lawyers than he does, for
example.
And -- and I would be okay with a separate motion, similar to
what Mr. Neale suggested so that I think we get the same end but
without making it his personal responsibility to slay this dragon.
MR. JOSLIN: Right. Could -- you could add as an addendum
that because of the fact that we're going to deny this citation that we
direct Mr. Neale to investigate the Idearc and SuperMedia.
MR. WHITE: I'd be comfortable with that as part of the motion.
MR. JERULLE: Well-- and just for discussion purposes--
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yes.
MR. JERULLE: -- could we ask him to provide us with the
resolution, whatever the resolution is.
Page 45
February 17,2010
MR. WHITE: Oh, you mean between our attorney and staff?
MR. JERULLE: No, between Mr. Skoric and -- and -- and the
card people, whatever their name is today.
MR. WHITE: I would be comfortable with that being within the
scope of this or any motion that brought that information back as a
specific case of what the general investigation about this company and
its practices have been, and not only the resolution of this individual
case, but generally speaking how we would be recommended to
proceed, whether -- whether this board should take some action or not,
depending upon whether it's within our jurisdiction.
But -- and, again, to impose on a defendant or a respondent a
requirement to come back probably could cost him more than the
amount on the citation. So what I'm trying to do is to not be as
predatory as Idearc and SuperMedia is.
MR. JERULLE: I understand.
MR. WHITE: I'm just trying to let him walk out of here --
MR. JERULLE: I'm just -- I'm a little -- I just wanted to be
curious as to what the -- the resolution is, whether it be a letter or -- I
don't even think that he has to reappear at -- at the board meeting, but
he could surely send a letter to Mr. Ossorio.
MR. JOSLIN: Do we really have the capability, Mr. Neale, to be
able to put a stipulation on the citation? Do we either deny it or uphold
it, one of the two, first? And then we could go forward.
MR. NEALE: Not really. The way -- the way the statute and the
ordinance reads is really -- it's -- it's an up-or-down kind of decision.
MR. JOSLIN: Right.
MR. NEALE: So, I mean, I -- I think Mr. White's suggestion that
-- that the -- the denial -- you know, the dismissal of the citation and
then a subsequent motion to direct myself and staff or however to
investigate this, and, you know, potentially as part of that we can be in
contact with the -- with Mr. Skoric with his permission to see what he
hears back because supposedly this Idearc has been -- their "Customer
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February 17,2010
Support Central," which we all have dealt with customer support
centrals and know how efficient they are.
They've been working on this since October and haven't given
him any resolution, so they -- they are probably going to send him
what is affectionately called a "bed bug letter" and hope he goes away.
MR. JOSLIN: So we should really do this in two motions then,
two separate motions?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Right now we have a motion on the floor
and a second to waive the citation, and then we have a pretty
convoluted way to try to resolve this.
I -- I would make this argument, that to this point Mr. Skoric has
been completely unmotivated to resolve this on his own. He's had no
-- no motivation whatsoever to resolve this on his own until he got a
con -- contact from -- from Collier County. If you uphold the citation,
there might be some motivation on his part to get this done.
Ifwe keep putting all those things on him, to send us a letter, talk
to your attorney -- the man's had no motivation at this point. He's got
$4,700 in invoices. I don't want to be tied up in whether or not this
gets resolved.
I think we need to find some motivation for him to resolve this on
his own, and if it doesn't get resolved and he comes back in front of us
again because this continues, well, then we can deal with it later, but I
don't want to be tied into expecting to get letters and then Michael's
got to follow up with somebody, Patrick's got to follow up with
somebody.
If we decide to authorize Michael or Patrick to look at this Idearc
company totally separate from this issue, that's one thing, but I don't
want to come back here next month and have Mr. Skoric come here
with letters and proof. Did he do something; did he not do something;
did his attorney try hard enough; did the other company respond fast
enough, that's not our responsibility.
So there's a motion on the floor to waive the citation, a motion
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February 17, 2010
and a second and a discussion, and I think if -- if we want to see
something get done, we hold the respondent accountable.
MR. WHITE: May I respond, Mr. Chairman?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Please. We're in discussion mode.
MR. WHITE: Thank you. I think the facts on the record are that
he was unaware that the advertising was out there until the county put
him on notice of it. Up until then it was just, essentially, a contract
dispute between him and Idearc as to whether he had any lawful
responsibility to pay the bills.
He still has that responsibility and will have to deal with it
because of the credit rating issues and other concerns. It's now up to
$4,700. I think they got his attention. I think this proceeding has
gotten his attention, and I'm assuming he's going to resolve it,
especially ifhe gives us -- gives Mr. Neale permission to work with
him. And I would hope we can deal with that in the next motion.
My motion is simply to dismiss it. And more generally we can
have the dialogue, I think, in our -- in our next consideration. If we
want to do that under new business at the end or if we want to do it
immediately after this hearing is of no concern to me, but I'd prefer to
stand by the motion, and I'm going to vote in favor of it.
MR. JOSLIN: Yes. The motion's on the floor.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Any other discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. I'll call the vote. All those in favor
of waiving the citation, say "aye."
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
Page 48
February 17,2010
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: That is 4 to 2.
MR. LANTZ: It's either 5 to 2 or--
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I didn't vote.
MR. LANTZ: Oh.
MR. JOSLIN: You're abstaining?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yes.
MR. NEALE: And if you're going to abstain you have to give a
reason.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Then I vote against the motion.
MR. WHITE: Four to three.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So it's 4 to 3.
MR. WHITE: It still passes.
MR. JOSLIN: It still passes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So the citation is waived.
MR. JERRULE: Yes.
MR. SKORIC: Thank you.
MR. JOSLIN: Now, Mr. White, if you'd like to make another
motion.
MR. WHITE: I -- just the board's pleasure, Mr. Chairman,
whether we want to handle this additional motion now or sometime
later in the agenda. I'm comfortable with dealing with it now.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Let's just do it now.
MR. WHITE: Great. I'd make a motion consistent with Mr.
Neale's recommendation that he and the staff necessary be authorized
to investigate the specifics of not only Mr. Skoric's case but more
generally the practices of the company now known as SuperMedia and
report back to us on what they find and with any recommendations
that they consider to be appropriate.
MR. JOSLIN: I'll second the motion.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I have a motion; I have a second.
Discussion?
(No response.)
Page 49
February 17,2010
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in favor?
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Motion carries 6 to 1. I get caught up in
making sure I follow procedure right, and I forget to vote sometimes.
Okay. Mr. Skoric, your citation's been waived. Thank you for
your time this morning.
MR. SKORIC: Thank you very much. Do you expect me
anything else -- I didn't understand completely -- to do, or if I resolve
finally that -- that -- that problem to bring you anything?
MR. JOSLIN: Do you need these copies of this -- of your
invoices back? I'm sure you do.
MR. SKORIC: Yeah.
MR. JOSLIN: And then the other thing would -- one thing would
be that I think it would be high time that you get on the -- on the -- on
the boat here and try to get this resolved immediately.
MR. SKORIC: Well, I'm -- I'm --
MR. JOSLIN: Any way you can. There's "inquiries" written on
there. There's ways to telephone them, letter them. And then work
with Mr. Neale, and he'll try to help you if -- possibly and get it
resolved before it turns into ten thousands of dollars.
MR. SKORIC: Okay.
MR. WHITE: Mr. Chairman, just for the record, staffwill make
copies and return the originals to Mr. Skoric, so we'll have those items
that were submitted into evidence kept as part of the file.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS : Yes. Thank you.
Page 50
February 17, 2010
MR. SKORIC: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. See Mr. Ganguli outside for a cop
-- for your originals of those invoices.
MR. SKORIC: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you, sir.
Mr. Cochenour, am I pronouncing that correctly?
MR. COCHENOUR: Cochenour.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Cochenour. Sorry. You are contesting a
citation?
MR. COCHENOUR: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. This is--
COURT REPORTER: I need to swear them.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I'm sorry. Please swear in -- thank you.
(Witnesses duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Ian, do you want to start us off?
MR. JACKSON: Sure.
MR. COCHENOUR: Excuse me. He is in my -- in my affidavit,
and does he have to be swore in?
MR. JOSLIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yes, he does. Yeah. Thank you.
(Witness duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
Okay. Ian.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. For the record, Ian Jackson, license
compliance officer. On November 23rd I observed Mr. Cochenour
trimming some trees at the noted address of 4242 29th Place
Southwest.
Mr. Coch -- Cochenour explained to me that he has a -- a tree
trimming business in Lee County and also explained that he was doing
some work for -- for the homeowner, Mr. Cunningham, I believe, in
exchange for some services performed to a motorcycle, I believe.
Mr. Cunningham worked on a motorcycle of Mr. Cochenour's,
Page 51
February 17,2010
and in return Mr. Cochenour was -- was trimming the tree for him.
Based on the exchange of services, considering that as compensation
and requiring a license in Collier County, I issued the citation on site.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Thank you, Ian.
MR. COCHENOUR: Excuse me. That's uncorrect (sic) at all. I've
known -- he has a motorcycle shop. I've known him since the early
'90s. He's worked on my bikes in the previous. We were not
exchanging no bike fees or nothing. He's never had nothing in his shop
of mine in -- since the early '90s.
I believe I told you that he's a friend of mine and we work on
bikes together. We -- but we go racing once a month in Georgia. The
tree that I was cutting -- I didn't get paid. I got no -- no money, no
check. I did my friend a favor.
And there was no motorcycle he worked on. What I -- I did tell
him that he had worked on my bikes previously, that he's a friend of
mine and he owns a motorcycle shop here. I think you misunderstood
me. And he can tell you I didn't work on no bike.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Mr. Cunningham, will you please
step forward.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, sir. Basically, I mean, we've been
friends for probably 18 years. I have not worked on any of his
motorcycles. He did it as a favor to me because I was going to do it
myself, and he basically stepped up and said he would take care of it
so no -- you know, climbing the tree I didn't -- you know, he didn't
want to see me get hurt or anything of the sort.
But the bottom line is I never worked on anything for him and he
did it as a favor to me, so, you know, basically, he didn't want to see
me get hurt.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I understand. Thank you.
MR. COCHENOUR: And -- and I -- and I do have -- I mean, I
Page 52
February 17,2010
brought -- I mean, I do got my bank statements for the whole year. I've
never done any work here in Collier County. I mean, I don't, you
know --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I understand. Thank you.
MR. JOSLIN: Ian Jackson, is he -- is this gentleman licensed as a
licensed tree trimmer?
MR. JACKSON: In Collier County?
MR. JOSLIN: Uh-huh.
MR. JACKSON: No, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: Not at all. Is he licensed in any county?
MR. JACKSON: He -- he has a business based out of Lee
County, which I -- I believe does not require a contractor's license for
the type of work that Mr. Cochenour does in Lee County; no -- no
license requirement for tree trimming in Lee County.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, if you look on E8, that is a
business tax receipt of Lee County saying that Richard's Tree Service
and Stump Grinding -- the description is a tree trimming and/or stump
removing. Lee County is -- is a little bit less restrictive than Collier
County .
With the Board of County Commissioners, we do regulate tree
service contracting. Most counties are going that way. It requires a
business procedure test and a tree exam to be able to conduct business
in Collier.
MR. WHITE: Just --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Questions of the respondent?
Mr. White.
MR. WHITE: Yes. And of Mr. Cunningham because I think your
testimonies conflict with one another. One of you have said that you
worked on the respondent's bikes, whether together or not, and, Mr.
Cunningham, you said you've never worked on one of his bikes, and
so between the --
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Well, not since the '90s.
Page 53
February 17, 2010
MR. COCHENOUR: Yeah, we're talking about 10 --
MR. WHITE: Hold on. Gentlemen, gentlemen. One at a time.
We're -- we're being transcribed, so we have to talk one at a time.
So I don't care who answers first, but help me clear up this
confusion, because there seems to be a conflict in your testimony.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Well, I mean, the only time I've ever--
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Step forward to the microphone, please.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: The only time I've ever helped Mr.
Cochenour is when we've been at the races, and, I mean, that's as a
friendly thing. It's not that I'm doing it as a business at the racetrack or
anything like that. I'm doing it as a friend, and that's us jointly doing it
at the races.
It's not like he brings these bikes to me at my business here in
town to work on his bikes. Basically, he does his own services, does
all of his own. I basically -- we work together at the track to help each
other --
MR. COCHENOUR: Yeah.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: -- at the track, but other than that, I have
not done anything to where he's had a bill and vice versa. We've done
it to help each other out.
MR. JOSLIN: I have one question. Mr. Jackson, one more time,
I've got an E6 page, and on it you have the complainant form that's
been filled out by yourself where, I assume, that when this citation
occurred -- when the violation occurred, you questioned Mr. Coch--
Cochenour.
And it states on here that, "On the site observed Mr. Cochenour
in lift trimming trees in the front yard. " You saw him trimming trees
in the front yard. "Cochenour has no Collier license for tree trimming,
and when questioned about compensation Cochenour stated
homeowner worked on his motorcycle and he was trimming trees in
return. "
Is this what he verbally told you?
Page 54
February 17,2010
MR. JACKSON: I -- I wouldn't say that was a direct quote, but
during the interview in the field that was the -- the general
interpretation that I -- that I got was that there was an exchange of
.
servIces.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: And based on that being compensation I issued
the citation.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay. If he was not working on a motorcycle, in
the fact that he was trimming a tree, wouldn't you still have cited him
for unlicensed activity?
MR. JACKSON: I probably would have -- would have looked
into it a little further, talked with the homeowner to ensure that there
was no compensation, whether -- whether monetary or -- or exchange
of services, possibly an affidavit stating such from the homeowner.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: May I say something, please? I did sign
an affidavit to that and gave it to the office.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I believe we have that in our packet.
MR. JOSLIN : We have that; that's why they're conflicting.
MR. WHITE: Well, let me just clarify that it -- it's not an
affidavit at Page E -- E3. It's simply a letter. It's not sworn, but --
MR. COCHENOUR: Yeah.
MR. WHITE: -- his testimony today is sworn and would be the
equivalent of an affidavit.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Right.
MR. WHITE: For -- for just, you know, the weight you would
give the testimony.
MR. NEALE: Yeah. Since it is sworn testimony today, it's -- you
know, the affidavit is almost -- I mean, the affidavit -- all he's really
doing is reasserting what he had put in his -- his alleged affidavit.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. NEALE: And -- and, specifically -- I'll just follow up with
Mr. Jackson. To be a contractor, the contract requires compensation
Page 55
February 17,2010
for the services, so ifhe's doing it for free he's not a contractor.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
Kyle.
MR. LANTZ: For this one, my personal opinion is I think he --
they're probably good friends and they've probably been friends
forever, and it's a friend helping a friend out. We seem to see a lot of
times where people come in and say, "Oh, I was helping out my
buddy," and their buddy never shows up.
Now, here his friend stepped up to the plate, came down, and for
-- that leads me to kind of think that he's telling the truth. And you
never see the friend or the homeowner stepping up to the plate. To see
that makes me think -- you know, leans me a little more to his side of
the story that he's not doing anything wrong.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Any other questions or comments for the
respondent?
I -- I have a question. When I was going through this, one of the
things that came to my mind was it appears, Mr. Cochenour, you had a
truck from your business that you had on site to do this work. Is that
correct?
MR. COCHENOUR: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: In a situation like that -- and I don't know
if Ian can answer or maybe Michael-- what happens if there's an
accident and this gentleman's got his commercial vehicle on site,
somebody gets hurt, property damage occurs? I understand it's a friend
helping a friend, but this is a commercial business with a commercial
vehicle. I'm not sure of the equipment that was being used.
What happens if a child was around, a child got hurt or a pet or
the neighbor's property got damaged? What would happen in a
situation like this?
MR. JACKSON: I -- I couldn't answer that.
MR. NEALE: It really wouldn't -- it's just like if you pulled up on
somebody's property and fell out of their tree or--
Page 56
February 17,2010
MR. CUNNINGHAM: The homeowner's would cover it.
MR. NEALE: It's the homeowner's insurance.
MR. JOSLIN: Homeowner's insurance.
MR. NEALE: It -- the fact that it's a commercial vehicle, all that
means, frankly, is that that company would probably be joined in any
lawsuit that happened to go forward. It doesn't -- if there's no
compensation, it doesn't rise to the level of being a contracting issue
and that workers' compensation would come in or anything because
there's no -- there's no business being done, there's no work being
done.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I understand. So the fact that there was
no compensation exchanged eliminates the -- any liability that goes
along with the commercial transaction?
MR. NEALE: It becomes premises liability just like if you've got
a friend at your house.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. I understand. Okay.
MR. NEALE: And, Mr. White, do you agree with that one?
MR. WHITE: It sounds consistent with my understanding of the
law.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. ZACHARY: Good answer.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Any other questions of the respondent?
MR. JERULLE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Terry.
MR. JERULLE: How many people were in the -- in the li -- was
it a lift bucket?
MR. JACKSON: I -- I believe it was a lift.
MR. JERULLE: And -- and how many people?
MR. JACKSON: Mr. Cochenour was in the lift.
MR. JERULLE: By himself?
MR. JACKSON: In the lift by himself.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Any other questions or comments?
Page 57
February 17, 2010
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. I need a motion.
MR. JOSLIN: I'm not sure that I entirely believe this, but I'm
going to -- motion to waive the citation.
MR. JERULLE: Second, Jerulle.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I have a motion; I have a second. Any
further discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in favor?
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Motion carries 6 to 1. Your citation is
waived.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you.
MR. COCHENOUR: Thank you. Is that all I need?
MR. NEALE: You're done.
MR. COCHENOUR: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Next, Gary Elliott contesting a citation.
(Witness duly sworn.)
MR. ELLIOTT: Good morning.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Good morning, Mr. Elliott. You've been
sworn in?
MR. ELLIOTT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Thank you.
Ian?
MR. WHITE: Were -- were you sworn, Mr. Jackson?
Page 58
February 17,2010
MR. JACKSON: I was.
MR. WHITE: Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: On December 3rd of last year, I observed Mr.
Elliott pressure cleaning a roof, and on that site I also observed his
business vehicle advertising a trade out of the scope of his license;
sealing driveways to be specific, which falls under a sealing and
striping license.
With that I asked Mr. Elliott to come down from the roof,
explained the violation, explained the steps that he can take to correct
the violation; removing the advertising, either permanently or
temporarily, and obtaining the certificate required to advertise in that
manner. And at the conclusion of our meeting I issued the noted
citation.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Thank you, Ian.
Mr. Elliott.
MR. ELLIOTT: That is true. A few days after that I did take
steps to fix that situation. I have pictures that I've taken of my truck
since where I've covered over anything that would imply that I seal
driveways. Can I submit this as evidence?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yes, if you would, please. Stop right
here, and we'll get it entered as evidence. I need a motion to accept
this into evidence.
MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin.
MR. JERULLE: Second, Jerulle.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in favor?
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
Page 59
February 17, 2010
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
MR. ELLIOTT: The pictures on the left show the van before I
made the correction; the pictures on the right show a magnet that I
placed over the wording.
(Respondent's Exhibit 1 was marked for identification.)
MR. ELLIOTT: It shows the one side and the back door. The --
the other side is the same as what you see there.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Ian, if -- if I understand correctly, the
issue is the sealing of driveways.
MR. JACKSON: Well, before I commit to that, I want to read the
definition.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: You have -- I think you have it in here,
don't you? It's in the packet.
MR. JACKSON: I do. "Cited -- cited for advertising as sealing
and striping."
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: And Mr. Elliott's van had a sign that said
he did sealing of driveways?
MR. JACKSON: Correct.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So that was what prompted the citation?
MR. JACKSON: Correct.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: And if it would please the board, I'll read that
definition.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Please do.
MR. JACKSON: "Those who are qualified with the experience
and skill to seal or stripe driveways, parking lots, sidewalks, and
patios. Scope of work shall include asphalt patching incidental to
sealing up to 20 square feet per patch in a manner that does not use a
mechanical spreader or paver."
The -- the issue more specifically in the definition of sealing and
Page 60
February 17,2010
striping was seal driveways on the -- on the advertisement.
MR. OSSORIO: You could look at -- that's at E6 in your packet.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: As the picture makes its way around,
what Mr. Elliott did was he got a red magnet and crossed over--
crossed off "seal" on his advertising.
MR. JOSLIN: A question.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: See it?
MR. JOSLIN : Yeah. I was thinking this thing says the same
thing, but "seal" was gone.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: He covered the word "seal" here and
there (indicating).
MR. JOSLIN: I didn't know you could pressure -- pressure clean
upholstery .
MR. ELLIOTT: Very low pressure, but with the proper tools.
MR. BOYD: Ian, I see these people advertising cleaning your
paver driveway and sealing it. Is -- do you need a license for that?
MR. JACKSON: To seal it, yes. To pressure clean a driveway, a
contractor's license is not required.
MR. BOYD: Okay. But I'm not talking about sealing asphalt. I'm
talking about pavers.
MR. JACKSON: Sealing a brick paver driveway--
MR. BOYD: A brick paver driveway.
MR. JACKSON: -- requires a contractor's license.
MR. BOYD: Okay.
MR. WHITE: Interestingly in this case, although the facts of your
investigation reveal that he was potentially sealing a roof, a roof is not
within the scope of work, so, but for the advertising issue, which is
really what the citation's about, you -- you wouldn't have a sealing
problem. Bad pun intended.
MR. OSSORIO: That is correct.
And, Mr. Boyd, you can take a look at -- E5 is this page. This is
the Collier County Ordinance 1.6.3.38, sealing and striping
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February 17, 2010
contracting. And that's what license is required to seal driveways and
patios.
MR. JOSLIN: What about brick pavers?
MR. OSSORIO: And -- yes.
MR. WHITE: If they're part ofa patio or a driveway or a
sidewalk, then yes.
MR. OSSORIO: That is correct.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: You can clean them.
MR. WHITE: Or even a parking lot.
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Sometimes what you have to be careful
of is -- I think we sometimes make assumptions that what's the big
deal about sealing -- sealing a pavered driveway, but that license
actually allows you to do large commercial projects.
So under a specific project like this it might not seem like a such
a big deal to seal somebody's brick - brick paver driveway, but that
license allows you to do so much more, which is why there's a
restriction on it.
MR. WHITE: I --
MR. OSSORIO: Also, Mr. Chairman, when you deal with
sealing and striping, the Board of County Commissioners and the
licensing board put a restriction of24 months of experience. They
want someone that has the ability to understand how to put the
application -- the product on the pavement.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Uh-huh.
MR. OSSORIO: So not only you take the business procedure test
to make sure you know how to conduct your business, but they want
to make sure you have two years of experience in that field. And I'm
sure Mr. Elliott is more than welcome to apply for a sealing and
striping license since he already took the business procedure test.
So now he just has to come down to the county, fill out the
application to show that he has 24 months of experience of -- of
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February 17,2010
sealing and striping, and we will issue him a certificate, if you -- ifhe
wishes to.
MR. WHITE: And -- and just for the record, the scope of the
license -- the only asphalt patching you can do, so folks don't get the
wrong idea, including you, is up to 20 square feet.
MR. ELLIOTT: I never --
MR. WHITE: And --
MR. ELLIOTT: I never did anything with asphalt. That's not in
my realm of ability.
MR. WHITE: I understand. And it also indicates that you cannot
use a mechanical spreader or a paver to do that patching of 20 square
feet so--
,
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Any other questions or comments from
the board?
MR. NEALE: Just one note to the board --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Mr. Neale.
MR. NEALE: -- from a legal point of view. 49.127(4)(d)(3),
which is -- this comes under 49.127 -- states that if the person issued
the citation or his designated -- his or her designated representative
shows that the citation is invalid or that the cit -- violation has been
corrected prior to appearing before the enforcement or licensing board,
the enforcement or licensing board may dismiss the citation unless the
violation is either irreparable or irreversible.
So the board does have permission in the case where it's been
corrected to -- to find that the -- to dismiss the citation.
MR. JOSLIN: Did you say that was a magnetic sign that you
covered over it with?
MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: You covered over it with a piece of -- another
piece of magnet?
MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. I had went to a sign shop and had them
make it just for that.
Page 63
February 17,2010
MR. JOSLIN: So it's a completely new sign, but it has the word
"seal" gone; is that what you're saying?
MR. ELLIOTT: Correct, yes.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay. You didn't just take another piece and just
stripe over "seal" and you can pull it off sometime?
MR. ELLIOTT: No, I -- that's what it is. I --
MR. JOSLIN: It's a permanent sign.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: No. No. No, that's exactly what it is.
MR. ELLIOTT: It's placed on there.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: It's a piece of magnetic sign over the
word "seal."
MR. JOSLIN: Right.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: The whole rest of the sign's the same. He
can take the magnet off, and it'll say "sealing" underneath it.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay. Well, then I don't like that. That's not going
to work.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
MR. ELLIOTT: Can I ask you to look at the photo?
MR. JOSLIN: No, I understand that.
MR. JERULLE: Maybe you can see it in there.
MR. JOSLIN: Oh, I can see it in there now. Okay. So what you
did was you took the -- you took the sign that you had on there and
took another piece of the red background and just put it over the "seal"
portion; is that correct?
MR. ELLIOTT: Correct.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay. Well, that's not going to get it. Because you
could take that back off again, right?
MR. ELLIOTT: That could -- that could be possible.
MR. JOSLIN: Yeah.
MR. ELLIOTT: Since I've put it on their early December, a few
days after this, I have not removed it. I have -- I've had it on there ever
.
SInce.
Page 64
February 17,2010
MR. LANTZ: But you chose to do a magnet instead of vinyl on
top?
MR. ELLIOTT: Well, I did that because I'm making the
preparations to get -- to acquire the license so when I do have that I
can take it off without going through the expense of removing the --
the decals and having more lettering put on.
MR. LANTZ: So have you done sealing in the past?
MR. ELLIOTT: I have, yes.
MR. JERULLE: But do you have two years of experience to
qualify?
MR. ELLIOTT: Yes.
MR. JERULLE: You do.
MR. WHITE: Where are you in the process, Mr. Elliott?
MR. ELLIOTT: Where am I in the process?
MR. WHITE: The process of getting that license you talked
about.
MR. ELLIOTT: I'm thinking of people that I can approach about
this that can truthfully justify that I have the experience.
MR. WHITE: So you've not --
MR. ELLIOTT: I understand they have to be notarized letters,
correct?
MR. WHITE: Yes. You've not filed an application at this point?
MR. ELLIOTT: Not yet.
MR. WHITE: When do you intend to file the application?
MR. ELLIOTT: I'm working on that right now.
MR. JERULLE: Mr. Elliott, I don't think you finished what--
you're coming before us to contest the citation. Can you explain --
MR. ELLIOTT: I was.
MR. JERULLE: -- to us why you think you should not pay after
the --
MR. ELLIOTT: Well, I -- I felt at the time that a warning would
have been sufficient to take care of in a certain time period -- if Mr.
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February 17,2010
Jackson would have -- would have said that -- you know, I took care
of it right away on my own. I felt a warning would have been justified
and come back to him and show proof within a time period that he
specified.
But I took care of it. That -- and since it does state on the
backside of the citation that -- which this gentleman stated to you, that
it -- the violation could be -- is repairable, which it was, that you
would consider that.
MR. JERULLE: Okay.
MR. WHITE: May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Sure.
MR. WHITE: -- of Mr. Neale? Mr. Neale, is it possible under our
jurisdiction in disposing of this case to dismiss it with a stipulation
that he obtain the required license within a period of time; in other
words, it's conditionally dismissed and ifhe --
MR. NEALE: What I -- what I would suggest probably as a
better route in this case --
MR. WHITE: Table it?
MR. NEALE: -- is that the board continue this matter--
MR. WHITE: Okay.
MR. NEALE: -- for a period of time to permit him to obtain
licensure, at which time the board could review the case and decide
what action to take at that point rather than up or down today.
MR. WHITE: I mean, I understand there may be concern about
whether under the statute he's, quote, unquote, corrected the
advertising issue. I mean, he certainly has made a good-faith effort to
do so, and I don't want to split a hair about whether -- it being
permanent or, quote, temporary because he could remove the magnet.
I'm -- I'm pretty sure based on his testimony if he's said he's left it
on their he's going to leave it on their hopefully until he concludes the
licensing process. And I'm interested in the other board members'
opinion, but it seems from my point of view that we -- we might want
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February 17,2010
to continue this for whatever period of time that would seem
reasonable for him to go through the licensure process. I'm guessing
two months.
MR. JOSLIN: No, 30 days.
MR. WHITE: Three months?
MR. JOSLIN: Thirty days.
MR. JERULLE: It's already been two months.
MR. WHITE: I -- I just don't know what the time frame is; that's
why I was looking to staff for some guidance.
MR. JOSLIN: Ifhe's qualified to do the work and he only has to
get the affidavit signed by someone that says he has the experience,
then that should be something that should be very simple to do.
You've just got to get it notarized, present the packet to Mr. Ossorio,
and then by the time we meet next month he should have it pretty well
in line, or at least well on its way that it's either approved or
disapproved.
MR. JERULLE: And I'm confused as to why he hasn't done that
in the last two months.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All right. Let me make it easier for you
guys. Again, why are we having a follow-up with somebody, having
them come back here and spend our time on this? The man chose a
temporary, least expensive solution to this and now is asking that we
waive the citation.
If he'd have went and got his signs redone and it was a permanent
solution, I'd feel a little bit more inclined to waive this thing, but he
went out and found the absolute simplest, most temporary solution to
this and hasn't put the effort into getting the license. So he doesn't
want to pay the fine, and he doesn't want to pay the money to get his
sign changed.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, our issue is is that his testimony
directly says that he's done work as a sealing and striping contractor.
He's been ben -- he benefitted from his sign; therefore, I would say
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February 17,2010
that he's a con -- he acted as a contractor and the citation should be
upheld.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Kyle?
MR. LANTZ: Well, I just want to make a motion. I move that we
uphold the citation.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I have a motion. I need a second.
MR. JERULLE: Second, Jerulle.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Any discussion?
MR. WHITE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. There's one citation here, and
it's for advertising. It's not for doing any work. And whether his
testimony is that he did, he's not being cited for that, so let's -- let's not
mix apples and oranges in how we determine the vote.
I'm going to vote against the motion, but only because I believe
he did correct the violation for advertising. And he's attempting to do
it, and I believe that we want to encourage people to comply. Perhaps
he should have been more timely and avoided the circumstance.
If he was coming here with us saying, "Yeah, I've got an
application. I'm going to be before you next month," the other
gentlemen on the board may have seen this differently. But I -- I just
don't want to have you cast your vote based on the fact that we're
bootstrapping in his own testimony being used against him for a
violation he's not being cited for; that's all.
MR. ELLIOTT: I would be willing to -- if -- if you'd give me 30
days, I can -- that would be enough time for me to get the required
affidavits. I believe it's -- what? You need three to show proof of
experience or just one?
MR. OSSORIO: Two or three would be fine.
MR. ELLIOTT: Three?
MR. OSSORIO: Three's better than two.
MR. ELLIOTT: Is two acceptable?
MR. OSSORIO: Two is fine.
MR. ELLIOTT: Okay.
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February 17,2010
MR. OSSORIO: We need 24 months. So we need two. But if you
some education or training in the field of seal coating, I can take that
as -- as a -- as experience in a percentage.
MR. ELLIOTT: All right. I would ask that you would consider
that, please.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. JOSLIN: If I'm not mistaken, I think we -- there's a motion
on the floor, but we either have to deny the motion or take the motion
back and continue this, you know, with that assumption or vote on it.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Right. So if --
MR. NEALE: Right.
MR. ELLIOTT: Can I --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: If the discussion's over, I'll call the vote.
MR. ELLIOTT: Could I -- so we don't take up your time on
another meeting, would bringing it to the attention of one of the
inspectors be sufficient?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Well, we have a motion on the floor we
need to vote on, and then any further discussion after that.
MR. NEALE: Well, you do -- you do have the option of -- if the
movant and the seconder both agree to withdraw the motion, you don't
have to --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. NEALE: -- call a vote on it.
MR. LANTZ: I stand by my motion.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Who seconded that? Was that Terry?
MR. JERULLE: I did.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Are you going to maintain your
second?
MR. JERULLE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Is there any further discussion?
Mr. Boyd.
MR. BOYD: Does he have any previous citations?
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February 17,2010
MR. JACKSON: No record of any previous violation.
MR. BOYD: And he's been a contractor since 1998, right? He's
been here for 12 years.
MR. JACKSON: Correct.
MR. BOYD: Thank you.
MR. JOSLIN: Now, understand one other item, gentlemen. If the
motion carries or does not carry, that now there is no fine and there is
no way that we -- he can bring anything before us as far as to alleviate
the fine; he's off totally.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: If the motion doesn't carry, that's correct.
MR. JOSLIN: If the motion does not carry.
MR. WHITE: Let --let me state for the record that, if that were
the case, my intention would be to make a motion to or -- or I would
ask the motion makers to consider -- well, let me just stop right there. I
don't think there's a procedural way --
MR. JOSLIN: No.
MR. WHITE: -- to address your concern.
MR. NEALE: Well, what--
MR. WHITE: So that's why I'm going to vote against it.
MR. NEALE: What can be done is that the -- the -- the contractor
licensing supervisor can refer any application that he appears on his
face -- appears to him on its face not to be consistent with the
ordinance to this board for review.
MR. WHITE: But I -- if the motion is denied, we're -- we're left
in what posture?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: The citation needs to be paid. I'm sorry.
If the motion --
MR. WHITE: Well -- well, no, we could still make another
motion.
MR. NEALE: Uh huh, you can still make another motion.
MR. WHITE: Okay. Thank you. I wasn't clear on that in my own
mind. Thank you.
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February 17,2010
MR. JERULLE: You know, in these tough economic times, I
have sympathy for -- for somebody like Mr. Elliott, but -- but on the
same token, you know, he's been doing this and benefiting from this
and doesn't have a license. And I know that there's other contractors
that I'm in direct contact with almost on a daily basis that do abide by
the rules and the regulations and the laws that I think we as a board
have an obligation to.
Those people are following the rules, and -- and then along
comes somebody like Mr. Elliott who -- who really doesn't follow the
rules and maybe can under -- underbid them as we stated earlier. So
not that I want to punish you so much as, you know, it's the -- it's the
right thing to do. You advertised something that you were not licensed
for.
MR. WHITE: Yeah.
MR. JERULLE: And -- and you have -- that's a very nice sign,
and you've paid money to put that sign on there, and you made a
conscious effort to put that sign on your truck, and you benefitted
from it. And it is -- it was wrong, and it's time to pay for that mistake,
and that -- that's my opinion.
MR. WHITE: Well, the statute allows, as Mr. Neale indicated, if
he corrects the violation before the hearing, which arguably he's done,
that we have it within our power to not penalize him.
MR. JERULLE: Yeah. Well, "arguably" is the correct term
because putting a temporary magnetic sign over a permanent sign, to
me, is not really correcting the problem. And having two months to
make an application to -- to do the license and he hasn't done so is not
correcting the problem, in -- in my opinion.
MR. LANTZ: I think the statute allows it, but it doesn't require
us.
MR. WHITE: No, you're -- you're absolutely right.
MR. JOSLIN: So restate the motion, please, just so I understand.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: The motion was to uphold the citation.
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February 17,2010
Okay. Any further discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Then I will call the vote. All those in
favor of upholding the citation say "aye."
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
MR. WHITE: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
COURT REPORTER: Who opposed? Can you raise your hands
if you opposed?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed -- raise your hand if you
opposed. So the motion carries 5 to 2. The fine is -- the citation's
payable in 10 days, correct?
MR. OSSORIO: That is correct.
Mr. Chairman, is it -- would it please the court reporter if we took
a five-minute break?
COURT REPORTER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Then we'll stay adjourned for five
minutes. We'll be back -- how about if we come back at 5 after 11.
MR. OSSORIO: That's fine.
(Recess held.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So I will call the meeting to order. And
next on the agenda is Paul Lykins, reinstatement of a county license.
(Witness sworn.)
MR. LYKINS: Hello.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Good morning, Paul.
Michael, do you want to give us a quick background on this?
MR. OSSORIO: Just give me a quick second.
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February 17,2010
MR. JOSLIN: Is he sworn in?
MR. NEALE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS : Yes.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Lykins is a certified specialty contractor,
electrical specialty contractor by the State of Florida. He did have a
electrical -- not -- an electrical sign contracting license in the county
registered with the state.
He became state certified, and he let his county license lapse but
kept his state registration current, so what Mr. Lykins is wishing to do
is to reinstate his county license so he would have a electrical sign
contracting local license and a -- and he will keep his state certified
specialty electrical license as well.
They both can do the same thing, but he wishes to keep his
electrical sign contractor active in our database because right now it's
showing it's cancelled because he's state certified. I'll give you an
example: when you were state registered, you let your registration
cancel, but you became state certi -- certified.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Right.
MR. OSSORIO: You can have two. You just elected to be a
general contractor because it's an overkill. You don't wish to go ahead
and keep two. Mr. Lykins wishes to go ahead and have two. It's a little
bit different because he's a state certified specialty electrical contractor
versus he's a county licensed electrical contractor for signs. So it's a
little bit different classification.
The state does -- encompasses the electricals, but he kept his state
electrical license active, so he has two registrations. He has a
registered license, and then he has a state certification license with the
state. But he didn't renew his -- his county license, so what we need to
do is -- he wishes to waive the exam so that he can reapply and get his
certificate back.
He -- he is continuing his education. This has been a formality.
We've done this five or six times in the past. My recommendation real
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February 17,2010
quick is to go ahead and waive the -- waive the test. And he can apply
for his certificate back as an electrical sign contractor since he's kept
his state registration up and current and be done with it.
MR. NEALE: Yeah. As Mr. Ossorio says, really the board's
action here is to waive the testing requirement for him. That's really all
the board is doing. And then he has to go through the regular
application process to get back in. So that's -- that's really all the board
is doing is waiving the testing requirement.
MR. JERULLE: Mr. Ossorio, did you give a -- what your
thoughts were, what your recommendation is?
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah. My recommendation is he gets his -- if
you look on the application, his application -- I don't know what page
it's on, but you'll see it's -- it says Lykins, Paul David -- that is him --
Lykins Signtek Development Specialty, and he's a -- you'll see it says
registered specialty contractor, and it's actually showing current.
And so, therefore, since he kept his registration current and
active, we recommend that he get his license back. If you go ahead
and turn to the next page, he has an ES license, certified specialty
contractor, and that is current, and that is, basically, for signs.
So it's an overkill. He's going to have a registered specialty
contracting for signs, and he's going to be a certified specialty
contractor for signs. And he's doing that for a couple of reasons; one,
he -- obviously, he wants to keep his registration current just in case
something happened with his state license and, two, that into our
database, when -- when a person pulls a category now that says
"electrical sign," he'll be in there.
Right now if you pull "electrical sign," it's going to -- it's not
going to show him in there because he's not an electrical sign
contractor. He's a state certified specialty electrical contractor, but it
encompasses signs. So he just wants to be more definitive and be in
that category and keep his registration current with the state, from
Tallahassee, and keep a certified registration with Tallahassee as well,w
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February 17,2010
so --
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Chairman, I'm just going to make -- this is the
shortest one we've had for a while. I'm going to make a motion that we
waive Mr. Lykins' testing requirements based on the fact that if you
look at his credit ap it's impeccable, and I believe that the man's been
in business long enough here that it's just a formality, I believe, that
was missed.
MR. WHITE: Second.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I have a motion; I have a second.
Discussion?
MR. JERULLE: I know them, and I use them, so I think I will
not vote to make sure that -- I'm trying to be impartial.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I'm in the same -- I'm in the same boat. I
have to abstain because I'm one of their customers as well.
MR. BOYD: Well, then I'm a--
MR. JOSLIN: You're not -- actually, I don't think --
MR. BOYD: I'm a competitor.
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Neale, you can -- Mr. Neale can answer the
question, but you don't have to abstain because you know them; you
just have to make it so the board knows it.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, you don't have to abstain as long as it's
publicly noticed that -- that you do have a business relationship with
them.
MR. JERULLE: All right.
MR. NEALE: And -- and make -- make sure that you make the
statement on the record, if it is, in fact, the truth, that it will not impact
the -- your vote or influence your vote in any way.
MR. JERULLE: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Jerulle, is that the company you complained
about last week to me?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Well, I'm also friends with Steve
Stevenson, so I'm going to abstain because I do have a relationship
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February 17,2010
with Steve as well, so I will abstain.
MR. LYKINS: Yeah, that's my partner.
MR. JERULLE: No, I -- I use Lykins Sign, and I don't have any
personal relationship, so I -- I will vote.
MR. WHITE: And it won't impact --
MR. JERULLE: It will not impact my position.
MR. WHITE: Thank you. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Mr. Lykins, do you even want us to give
you a chance to say a few words, or do you just want to get this done
MR. LYKINS: Mike pretty well --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- as quick as possible?
MR. LYKINS: Mike pretty well said it.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. LYKINS: I just want to be -- when, you know, the web
site's pulled up, you know our name doesn't come up on it, so we look
cancelled, like we're not current, so I just want to reinstate it.
MR. WHITE: As an aside, Mr. Chairman, if I may, is CityView
going to be more comprehensive in how it shows contracting statuses
at both the state and local level just as a suggestion?
MR. OSSORIO: To be honest with you, I'm not sure, but it's one
of the things we're looking at to making sure that it's compatible. I'm
assuming it's going to be better. I think it will. So with that category --
with that caveat, I think it will be, but to be safe, we need to make sure
that he is added as a specialty registered contractor because it is the
county web site.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Any discussion?
MR. NEALE: Just one more point, as Mr. Boyd did -- did
indicate that he does have a -- he is a competitor, but if -- ifhe would
also state for the record if it -- if it is, in fact, the case, that it would not
impact his vote.
MR. BOYD: It will not impact my vote.
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February 17,2010
MR. NEALE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
Any other discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I'll call the vote. All those in favor?
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Motion carries 6 to O. Thank you.
MR. LYKINS: All right. Thank you. All right. Do I need to do
anything?
MR. NEALE: Just talk to Mr. -- Mike.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I think it takes a couple of -- a couple of
days.
MR. NEALE: It takes a couple of days.
MR. LYKINS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Next, Mr. Paul Gaydos, qualified second
entity. Just to be clear, you're not the guy that shot a nine on the --
MR. PAUL GAYDOS: No. It's G-a.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- tour today, are you?
MR. PAUL GAYDOS: It's close.
(Witnesses sworn.)
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, just a quick overview. He's a
state registered electrical contractor. He qualifies Paul J. Gaydos. He
wishes to qualify MJG Electrical, Incorporated. And we have his
tentative insurance papers and the -- the tentative workers' comp
policy for the MJG Electrical, Incorporated, here, it was missing in the
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February 17, 2010
packet.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. JOSLIN: For the record, I would like to just make it known
that I do know both these gentlemen, Mr. Paul Gaydos, personally.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: And will that impact your decision?
MR. JOSLIN: It will not impact my decision.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: I can make this one quick, too, if you want.
MR. OSSORIO: Okay. Mr. Chairman, when you're reviewing
that, I -- I reviewed this packet, and I find no fault in it, so my
recommendation is to grant his second entity.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: For a point of clarification -- I don't know
if this is Mr. Neale or Michael. The letter of intent is to verify that
commercial liability insurance can be made available to MJG Electric.
Is the requirement for us that the insurance already has to be in place,
or is this -- this enough?
MR. NEALE: No, that -- no insurance needs to be in place until
the license is granted because --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. NEALE: -- you can't operate without the license, so--
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: One of the things we actually look for is -- when
you fill out the application, that's on the checklist, so we -- the
certificate won't be issued to any company without having proper
.
Insurance.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: But --
MR. WHITE: It's not exactly a binder, but it's close.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Well, usually we see them, and they
already have their insurance in place; that's why I asked.
MR. JOSLIN: If anyone has any -- no derogatory remarks or
discussion, I'm ready to make a motion.
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February 17,2010
MR. JERULLE: I just -- if I may just briefly. Mr. Paul Gaydos,
would you explain what you're doing and why?
MR. PAUL GAYDOS: Well, my brother is currently
unemployed. His company went under. He was a foreman for 20-some
years, a superintendent of many, many jobs. And he's in the process of
getting his own license, but until he gets his license I will qualify him
until he is certified.
MR. JERULLE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Mr. Gaydos -- Mr. Gaydos, if you would
do me a favor and just step up real quick to the microphone.
MR. PAUL GAYDOS: Yes. Gaydos, not Goydos.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I'm sorry. See, I have that in my head
now. I apologize.
MR. PAUL GAYDOS: I get it all the time, and I don't --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Does anybody--
MR. P AUL GAYDOS: I don't even play golf.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Does anybody else have any questions of
the respondent?
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, just to make sure -- this is your --
if you do do this, he's a -- you will be qualifying a second entity for a
specialty -- I mean, a registered electrical contractor, and he will have
to file with the state, too, as well.
So once -- if you do approve it here, he'll come back to the office,
get the forms, and fill out the forms for the State of Florida for a
registration, so --
MR. PAUL GAYDOS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Any other questions or comments?
Mr. Joslin.
MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion that we approve Mark Gaydos
and Paul Gaydos for qualifying a second entity and that he be, also,
required to register with the state.
MR. LANTZ: Second, Lantz.
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February 17,2010
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Any discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in favor?
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Motion carries 7-0.
MR. P AUL GAYDOS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you. Good luck.
MR. PAUL GAYDOS: Thank you.
MR. MARK GAYDOS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Onto old business, Marisol Santos,
review of credit report, six-month review.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, we've -- we've issued her a
temporary probation of her license, and you -- and you made it clear to
the applicant that she needs to appear back to you with a current credit
report. And it looks like she is making some progress on her credit,
and with that I'll leave it up to you.
COURT REPORTER: She needs to be sworn.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I'm sorry. Please.
(Witness duly sworn.)
MS. SANTOS: Good morning.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Good morning. How are you?
MS. SANTOS: Good. How are you?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Good. As a refresher, Michael, what was
the -- the decision I made, was it one year probation or six months
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February 17,2010
probation?
MR. OSSORIO: It was six months, and it was -- the board
wished to have the applicant back in front of the board with a current
credit report. As you can see in front of you, you have a credit report
dated May 8, 2009, and then you'll have -- somewhat in the back of
the packet you'll see a new credit reported dated January 25th, 2010.
And with that --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Miss Santos, why don't you give
us a report on how things are going.
MS. SANTOS: Things are going very well. I've also done some
continuing education. I'm sure you're aware Florida just passed a law
that's going to require us to be certified in fertilization and mulching,
and I've already passed that course. I think I got a 100 on the exam, so
I'm proud of that.
And our customer base is building day -- day by day. We're
getting calls every week, so we are doing well. You know, it's a little
slow starting because we have limited equipment, but, you know --
and, also, if I'd like -- if I could, I'd like to comment on the -- what you
were speaking about earlier about the unlicensed contractors.
It's really hard for us to -- to do anything with our business when
we have -- these people that are not licensed, they have no overhead
costs, so they're able to underbid us by so much that we have no way
of competing. And, you know, I am one of those people that follow
the rules and try to educate myself so we can educate our customers.
And, you know, we would like to see more enforcement out there.
And we are also a company that will -- if we see somebody that
doesn't seem like they're a contractor, we will report them because
that's our meal ticket that we've worked so hard for, you know, and I
don't think it's fair.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
MR. JOSLIN: As you -- as you probably heard during the
meeting, because you've been sitting here a while, that the new
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February 17,2010
manager is -- is going to --
MS. SANTOS: Yeah.
MR. JOSLIN: -- make sure that we go forward with, maybe
another investigator, to try to take some of these unlicensed people off
the street to help your business along.
MS. SANTOS: Yes. I was very pleased to hear that.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Well, seeing here that your -- your credit
score has gone up, your delinquent -- number of delinquent accounts
as gone down, your past due amounts have gone down -- so it looks to
me like you're making good progress.
Are there any other comments from the board?
MR. JOSLIN: I feel as though we should probably maybe just for
the sake of keeping her under our wing for a little longer, maybe put a
-- extend the -- the probation for another six months, or--
MR. NEALE: The--
MR. JOSLIN: -- or can this not be done?
MR. NEALE: No, the order issued by the board on the 17th of
June stated that the credit report will be reviewed at the six month
meeting, and the board determines whether the applicant will receive
an unrestricted license, be denied further licensure, or have the
probationary period extended, so you did have the three options at that
point.
MR. WHITE: Mr. Chairman, I went through this in maybe
fly-speck fashion, and a lot of the smaller ones have been addressed.
There are some larger ones and -- and a new charge off, but, you
know, that's resolved. So I -- I think that maybe another six months
makes sense.
If the business activity continues to improve and the items that
are on there of larger dollar amounts can, not necessarily be paid, but
some explanation given as to what the status is going to be in the long
term, then at the end of six months, I think we could feel comfortable
that, you know, she had moved the ball as far as she could, and get a
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February 17, 2010
report, also, on, hopefully, the continuing improvement of the amount
of business so we have somebody that's, you know, a stable, solid
economically, a well managed business. That's what we're looking for.
I'm sure that's what the applicant's looking for too. So I think six
months makes sense.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So your recommendation is to extend the
probation for six more months?
MR. WHITE: I -- I'd put it as a second, if that was a motion.
MR. JOSLIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I'm sorry . You're right. I'm sorry.
Richard, that was your recommendation?
MR. JOSLIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: And -- and--
MR. WHITE: I'm agreeing with his recommendation.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS : You're agreeing with his
recommendation.
MR. WHITE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Did you make a formal motion?
MR. JOSLIN: Not formally, no.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. JOSLIN: But I can put it into a formal one.
MS. SANTOS: May I say something real quick before you do?
The reason for the delay in the improvement in my credit is because
the company that was working on my credit went out of business. And
I included a copy of the returned mail. It's all I really had.
And several months ago we were really slow, so that's been the
delay in the improvement in my credit. And then that's why you see,
like, some improvement, then -- then nothing, so that's why.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Thank you.
Michael, if she's on probation, that does not limit her ability to
work at all.
MR. OSSORIO: No.
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February 17,2010
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: It's just that she's obligated to come back
to us as long as she's on probation?
MR. OSSORIO: That is correct.
CHAIRMAN LYKOS: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: And the only -- the only difference is is that it's
going to take a little more staff time to, you know, put it into Outlook
to make sure that she gets back on the agenda.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. JOSLIN: There's a motion.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Any other -- any other comments or
questions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Then I need a motion.
MR. JOSLIN: A motion to allow Miss Marisol to be on another
probationary license for another six months and after six months come
back before us one more time.
MR. WHITE: Second.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I have a motion; I have a second.
Discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in favor?
MR. JOSLIN: And the one more time with a new credit report.
Sorry .
MR. WHITE: Seconder agrees.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Okay. So why don't we restate the
motion so everybody has a clear understanding before we vote.
MR. JOSLIN: For the fact that we allow Miss Marisol to have
the probationary license, extend her license for another six months on
probation, and after six months come back before us with a new credit
report.
MR. WHITE: Agreed.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. All those in favor?
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February 17,2010
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Miss Marisol, thank you for your
time today.
MS. SANTOS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: And -- and we'll see you in six months
with a new credit report.
MS. SANTOS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Thank you.
MR. JOSLIN: Good luck.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I'm sorry. You're right. Motion carried 7
to O.
Colleen Martinez.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, this is Colleen Martinez. The
same thing, six months. The credit report is dated April 1 st, 2009, and
you have her new credit report dated December 30th, 2009.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Miss Martinez.
MS. MARTINEZ: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Why don't you give us a report -- well,
I'm sorry. You need to be sworn in first.
(Witness duly sworn.)
MS. MARTINEZ: My credit actually has gone up since then still.
I am working with Lexington Law, and they're working on all three of
my credit, not just on the Experian that you guys are looking at, but
they're looking at the Equifax, the TransUnion, and -- all three of
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February 17,2010
them.
So it takes a little bit longer just because some of the things have
been deleted off one but not yet off the other, but I have been rising
and rising every month. Every 30 days they give me a new report, and
I have gone up. Actually, TransUnion is at 680 already, so I have gone
up quite a bit.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: That's good. Tell us how business is
.
gOIng.
MS. MARTINEZ: Business is going good. I am working for a
few contractors and, you know, starting out slow, but it's been steady
enough to keep us alive.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Good.
MS. MARTINEZ: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Questions or comments from the board?
MR. NEALE: There's only one minor issue, and I -- I don't think
it's -- but I wanted to bring it to the board's attention -- is that as part of
the original-- and I'm -- she's probably -- I would suggest that she's
probably following with it -- is as part of the order at the last board
meeting in June, the applicant was also supposed to supply a copy of
her divorce decree indicating the division of debt.
MS. MARTINEZ: I totally forgot about that. I apologize. I did
not include that. I forgot. I'm sorry.
MR. JOSLIN: Do you have it?
MS. MARTINEZ: I don't have it. I just brought my credit stuff.
MR. JOSLIN: No, I mean, you don't have it physically with you
now, but do you have it?
MS. MARTINEZ: Oh, I -- yeah, I have it. I just don't have it
physically here.
MR. WHITE: We can maybe continue it until next month.
MR. NEALE: Either -- either continue it, or the board could
direct her that she provide it to the -- to staff.
MR. JOSLIN: To staff.
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February 17,2010
MR. NEALE: Because it doesn't say that the -- it doesn't have to
be provided directly to the board. It can be provided to --
MS. MARTINEZ: And I think the ones that were his actually
have been pulled off, other than maybe one that is a gas card issue
thing that they're still verifying the account, but all the ones that were
his, I think, have been pulled off.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Excuse me.
MR. JOSLIN: Is that -- that was --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Patrick, what was -- what was the exact
order of the board six months ago?
MR. NEALE: The order of the board was that she was going to
come back in six months. The credit report was going to be reviewed,
determine whether the -- she would be -- an unrestricted license,
further licensure, or probationary period extended, same three options,
and then she was going to provide a copy of her divorce decree
indicating res -- division of responsibility for the marital and non-
marital debt within the -- sometime during the six month period.
So it -- it wasn't exactly specific as to when and what the criteria
were, just it was -- it was something the board, I think, had interest in
to see what -- how that -- how that shake -- shook out.
MR. JOSLIN: So just to answer the final question then, you --
you have physically gotten that decree or that paperwork that we
asked for from the divorce?
MS. MARTINEZ: Yes, I do have that.
MR. JOSLIN: You just don't have it with you.
MS. MARTINEZ: I just didn't bring it with me because I lost
track.
MR. JOSLIN: So would it be able -- you be able to present that
to staff?
MS. MARTINEZ: Yes, I can.
MR. JOSLIN: No problem?
MS. MARTINEZ: Uh-huh.
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February 17,2010
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Do you have a recommendation from
staff?
MR. OSSORIO: I think we should continue her on probation for
six months, and she can stop by my office before Friday with the --
with the appropriate documents would be fine.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I think I'd like to have that turned in
before -- I don't want to wait six more months to get that decree.
MR. JOSLIN: No, Friday.
MS. MARTINEZ: Friday.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: That's what I'm saying. I don't want to
wait six months. If she gets it in Friday, that would be -- I think that's
a good recommendation.
MR. LANTZ: I move we extend her probationary period for six
months, then she'll give us another credit report, and that she bring her
divorce decree within five business days.
MS. MARTINEZ: Uh-huh.
MR. WHITE: Second.
MR. JOSLIN: By this Friday?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Five days.
MR. JOSLIN: Five days.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I have a motion; I have a second. Any
further discussion?
MR. WHITE: Could I just --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those -- I'm sorry.
MR. WHITE: Just -- just one point to staff. I'd -- I'd caution that,
although we send the letter out about social Security numbers being
redacted, I just hope that's sufficient in the case. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in favor?
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
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February 17, 2010
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Miss Martinez, you'll have your
report into the licensing office. Kyle gave you five days --
MS. MARTINEZ: Five days. Thank you, Kyle.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- to get that done. And then we'll see you
again in six months with your updated credit report.
MS. MARTINEZ: All right. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Thank you. And good luck to you.
MS. MARTINEZ: Thank you.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, since it appears that the credit reports -- that
the Social Security numbers were not completely redacted in here, I'd
suggest that everyone hand this one back to staff and let staff shred it.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yeah. Before we move on to public
hearings, there's one other thing -- Michael, I've got this --
MR. NEALE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- evidence from one of the citations. I
want to make sure we get that to the right place.
Okay. Our last item of business is a public hearing. Is Miss
Borrego here? Miss Borrego. Okay.
(Witnesses duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay . You've been sworn in. Okay. This
.
IS --
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I haven't been sworn in. I might
want to take some testimony, so can I be sworn in too?
MR. NEALE: Excuse me. Just one quick thing before we do that.
Apparently, there's also a number of -- a non-redaction on Miss
Santos' matter as well, so those should be returned to staff for
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February 17, 2010
shredding.
(Witness duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Before we get started, I just want
to explain the rules of the public hearing, and then we'll be able to
move forward. Public hearings are conducted pursuant to the
procedures set out in Collier County Ordinance 90-105, as amended,
and Florida Statutes Chapter 489.
These hearings are quasi judicial in nature. Formal rules of
evidence shall not apply, but fundamental fairness and due process
shall be observed and shall govern the proceedings.
Irrelevant, immaterial, or cumulative evidence shall be excluded,
but all other evidence of a type commonly replied upon by reasonably
prudent persons in the conduct of their affairs shall be admissible,
whether or not such evidence would be admissible in a trial in the
courts of the state of Florida.
Hearsay evidence may be used for the purpose of supplementing
or explaining any -- any evidence but shall not be sufficient by itself
to support a finding unless such hearsay would be admissible over
objection in civil actions in court.
The rules of privilege shall be effected -- effective to the same
extent that they are now or hereafter may be recognized in civil
actions. Any member of the contractors' licensing board may question
any witness before the board.
Each party to the proceedings shall have the right to call and
examine witnesses, to introduce exhibits, to cross examine witnesses,
to impeach any witness, regardless of which party called the witness
to testify, and to rebut any evidence presented against the party. The
chairperson or, in his absence, the vice chairperson shall have all
powers necessary to conduct the proceedings at the hearing in a full,
fair, and impartial manner and to preserve order and decorum.
The general process of the hearing is for the county to present an
opening statement where it sets out the charges and, in general terms,
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February 17, 2010
how it intends to prove them. The respondent then makes his or her
opening statement setting out, in general terms, the defenses to the
charges. The county then presents its case in chief calling witnesses
and presenting evidence. The respondent may cross examine these
witnesses.
Once the county has closed its case in chief, then the respondent
puts on her defense. They may call witnesses and do all the things
described earlier; that is, call and examine witnesses, to introduce
exhibits, to cross examine witnesses, to impeach any witness,
regardless of which party called the witness to testify, and to rebut any
evidence presented against the party.
After the respondent puts on his or her case, the county gets to
present a rebuttal to the respondent's presentation. When the rebuttal is
concluded, then each party gets to present closing statements with the
county getting a second chance to rebut after the respondent's closing
argument. The board then closes the public hearing and begins
deliberations.
Prior to beginning deliberations, the attorney for the board will
give them a charge, much like a charge to a jury, setting out the
parameters on which they base their decision. During deliberations the
board can ask for additional information and clarification from the
parties.
The board will then decide two different issues; first, whether the
respondent is guilty of the offenses charged in the administrative
complaint. A vote will be taken on this matter. If the respondent is
found guilty, then the board may decide the sanctions to be imposed.
The board attorney at this point will advise the board of the sanctions
which may be imposed and the factors to consider. The board will
discuss sanctions and take a vote on those.
After the two matters are decided, the chair or, in his absence, the
vice chair will read a summary of the order to be issued by the board.
This summary will set out the basic outline of the order, but will not
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February 17, 2010
be exactly the same language as the final order. The final order will
include the full details required under state law and procedure.
So we are hearing Case No. 2010-1, Board of County
Commissioners, Collier County, Florida, Contractors' Licensing Board
versus Maharay Borrego -- am I pronouncing that correctly?
MS. BORREGO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- Maharay Borrego d/b/a Mary's
Kitchens & Interiors, Incorporated, License No. 32941. The
administrative complaint: The Contractors' Licensing Board of Collier
County, Florida, files this administrative complaint against Maharay
Borrego d/b/a Mary's Kitchens & Interiors, hereinafter "the
respondent," License No. 32941, and says, Count I, 4.1.8, committing
mismanagement or misconduct in the practice of contracting that
causes financial harm to a customer. Financial mismanagement or
misconduct includes, but is not limited to, any of the following. And
we don't have any of the following.
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Chairman, I want to make a motion that we
enter this packet into evidence.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I have a motion. I need a second.
MR. LANTZ: Second, Lantz.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in favor?
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you. The packet is entered into
evidence.
And, Ian, would you please start with an opening statement.
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February 17, 2010
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. For the record, Ian Jackson, license
compliance officer for Collier County. Today the county will show
that the contractor, Maharay Borrego, committed mismanagement or
misconduct in the practice of contracting that causes financial harm to
this customer. We're going it hear that by documented facts and
through the testimony of the affected homeowners. This occurred due
to the fact that Miss Borrego contracted with an inactive, delinquent
license prohibiting the execution of the contract.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Thank you.
Miss Borrego, your opening statement.
MS. BORREGO: What can I say? Yeah, I did go into a contract
after so many things that had happened since August last year, and one
of them is paying rent where I have my showroom over at the Big
Cypress Marketplace, having so many overhead, going through a
separation, a divorce, three kids, and the whole works. Yep, I went
into contract. I needed the money.
I don't have the money now, but I do want to do their job, if I'm
able to do it, or if they want their money back, I'm going to have to
pay little by little.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Ian, are you ready to present your
case?
MR. JACKSON: I am. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Please proceed.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. I would like to call Mrs. Laczi, the
homeowner, as a witness for the county, if I could, please.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Mrs. Laczi, will you please come up and
be sworn in?
(Witness duly sworn.)
MR. NEALE: Let me have her go to the --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Would you please come over here by Mr.
Jackson. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: I'm going to stand here for a couple of minutes.
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February 17,2010
Pardon me. I'm going to stand here for a couple of minutes while I
question her.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Ms. Borrego, you can just sit right
in the front row, that's fine, so you're close by. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Has Ms. Laczi been sworn in?
COURT REPORTER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yes, she has. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Mrs. Laczi, did you contract with Ms. Borrego
for the installation of the countertops and kitchen cabinets?
MS. LACZI: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And at what point in time did you contract with
Ms. Borrego?
MS. LACZI: We signed the contract on November the 3rd.
MR. JACKSON: And, Ms. Laczi, in the packet that I gave you,
on Exhibit E5 --
MS. LACZI: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: -- are these the checks that were paid to Ms.
Borrego on 11/5 and 11/6 --
MS. LACZI: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: -- of2009?
MS. LACZI: (Witness nodding head.)
MR. JACKSON: And, Ms. Laczi, would you have contracted
with Ms. Borrego had you known that the status of the license that
would have allowed her to contract was delinquent at that time?
MS. LACZI: No way. I asked numerous times, "Do you have a
license? Do you have a license."
"Yes." Because we --
MR. JACKSON: And I understand that there was some time that
had transpired between the signing of the contract and the issuance of
the checks.
When you arrived at the conclusion that this work was not going
to take place, would you explain, in your own words, what happened
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February 17, 2010
next.
MS. LACZI: Well, we agreed that she would start work
December the 1 st because she said that she doesn't know how long it
will take for the license on Marco Island to be issued. She would have
even started before December 1 st, but I said, be -- because we don't
know the length and it's Thanksgiving, I said December 1 st will be
okay.
So I stayed quiet. I didn't contact her. I waited until after
December 1st, and she never contacted me to say, "This is what's
going on. We're still waiting for the con -- for the permit to be issued,"
blah -- whatever.
So when I saw that time is passing and no word from Mary, I
contacted her, and I said, "Mary, what is going on?"
"Elena, the cabinets are being ordered."
Then I waited and I waited and contacted her. Every time I called
her she only had the answering machine on. After so many calls,
repeated calls, I said, "Mary, please call me. Mary, please call me. Let
me know what's going on," and then she would call me, and then she
would say, "Oh, we will -- we will do -- we'll have some -- I have
some jobs that we need to finish, and as soon as I'm finished -- we're
finished with those -- those jobs, we're going to start your job."
That was before -- just before Christmas. And I told her, "Well, I
need to go home for Christmas, so you finish up -- if you're going to
finish up -- finish the job before Christmas?"
She said, "Yes, it will be finished in five days since the day we
start. "
So I -- I -- I doubted that something -- I -- I -- I had the feeling
that something is wrong, so I went to the licensing department on
Marco Island to see if she didn't even get the permit, so at that time I
found out that, yes, they applied for the permit and the permit was
issued on December the 8th.
Be -- after that she showed up at my house when I told her,
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February 17,2010
"Mary, you have the permit. What -- what -- what is still holding you
not to do the job?"
And she showed up at my house with another bill for $240, and
she said, "I -- I need you to pay me this because Ariel Gonzales,"
which is the contractor that she obviously is working on -- with, "paid
for the permit."
And I said, "Mary, I'm not going to pay that bill because you --
we agreed that everything it's included in the con -- in the amount that
we agreed upon that's on the contract."
And so she said, "Okay. Then I'm going to waive that -- that fee."
After that I kept calling her and I kept calling her, and then she
never answered. And, finally, one time when -- when she answered,
she said, "I'll meet with you," and she gave me a place where to meet
and a time. The place was the Waffle House on -- on 951 with 75,
somewhere there, and 2 o'clock.
So we went there with my husband at 2 o'clock, and she never
showed up. I called her, and she said, "Well, I'm being evicted from
my house. I'm going through a divorce. I have a lot of problems. "
And I said, "Well, Mary, I understand that, but I" -- I -- I said, "I
don't want a kitchen anymore. I don't want to deal with you anymore. I
don't want you to do any work for me anymore. I just want my money
back," and I said, "today," and that's -- that's -- that's -- that's the end
of it.
Then we went to Mr. Jackson, as they told us in -- on Marco
Island at the licensing department to go to Collier County, and that's
when we went to file the claim because I didn't know what else to do
because I -- obviously, I -- I -- I cannot talk to -- to Mary.
And I went to her place of business every -- every Saturday or
Friday or Sunday, whenever they are there at the Big Cypress Mar--
farmers market where she has her showroom. Since I had the doubts,
then I went there all the time at one of these days on the weekends to
see if she's there and what's going on, and nobody was at the counter.
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February 17,2010
And I just left my -- my name there two times, I think, and --
"Mary, contact me. Mary, please give me a call." I left the phone
number, the address, name. I've never been contacted. And every time
I went there there was nobody at the desk at the -- where she has the
showroom.
And all I want to say is that I want my money back and not in
installments, because I give her two checks, $5,750, and I want them
-- I want her to borrow the money from her brother, mother, uncle,
which is -- Ariel Gonzales I understood is her uncle.
And she -- she -- she assured me when she showed up at my
house with Ariel Gonzales that, "By the time we're going to be done
with your work, you're going to meet all my" -- or "you're going to
know all my family."
So I was pleased because I said, "Oh, this is a family owned
business, operated and owned, and they're honest. And I -- I can deal
with people to people, person to person." And, well, it never worked
that way, so I want my money back.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you.
MS. LACZI: Because if she -- if she will give me $200 today,
$200 in five months -- in a month I'm going to leave Marco Island,
and I'm -- I'm going to Romania because I have an 82-year-old mother
that is old and sick, and I have to take care of her, and I don't have the
time and the possibility to wait for her to pay me in installments. So I
-- I need assurance that she is going to give me the money all at once
and now.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Ms. Laczi.
MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple questions real
quick, if I may.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yes, sir.
MR. ZACHARY: Robert Zachary, assistant county attorney.
Mrs. Laczi, have you gotten any kind of money back from the
respondent in this case, which is Mrs. -- Ms. Borrego, at this point?
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February 17, 2010
MS. LACZI: No.
MR. ZACHARY: And do you see the person in the courtroom
who you contracted with?
MS. LACZI: Mary.
MR. ZACHARY: Mary. Let the record indicate that she has
indicated the -- the respondent in this case.
MS. LACZI: And she was with another lady when we signed the
contract, Rose -- Rosemary, and when we decided on the -- the color
MR. ZACHARY: I don't have any further questions.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Thank you, sir, Mr. Zachary. Any
other questions from you, Ian?
MR. JACKSON: At this point I have no further questions. I
would like to elaborate on the -- on the case, though, so I'll head back
over there.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: You can go back to -- over there.
Ms. Laczi, if you would please stay.
Ms. Borrego, you have the opportunity to cross examine the
witness. Do you have any questions for the witness, Ms. Borrego?
MS. BORREGO: No, I don't have any questions. I just want --
I'm sorry is all that I can say.
MS. LACZI: I trusted you, Mary.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay . You'll have -- we'll have --
MS. BORREGO: I know you trust me.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: We'll have -- we'll have time for closing
statements when we're done with -- with this part of the process.
Ian, do you have any other evidence, any other witnesses to call?
MR. JACKSON: No further witnesses.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Ian, do you have more information for
us?
MR. JACKSON: Well, I just wanted to, once again, reiterate the
fact that Mrs. Laczi contracted while Ms. Borrego was not currently
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licensed, and once that comes to the attention of the licensing
department, the -- the contract cannot be executed. There's -- there's
no way for this contract in the form that it's in right now to be
completed.
The Laczis are going to have to find a new contractor if they
want this kitchen remodeled. Of course, this new contractor is -- is
going to have to charge them accordingly, and at this point the Laczis
are -- are out $5,750.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Mr. Ossorio.
MR. OSSORIO: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I have a question for Ian
Jackson, if I may.
Ian, can you turn to Page E3 in your packet. And this is a
certificate detail report; am I correct?
MR. JACKSON: Yes.
MR. OSSORIO: If you'd look on the top left-hand comer, it says,
"Expire date." What date is that?
MR. JACKSON: September 30th, 2009.
MR. OSSORIO: And I submit to the board that every single
contractor has to renew his or her certificate by September 30th, 2009.
After -- by code, after September -- you go into October, November,
or December, and by code it says that you are delinquent.
So when the -- Ian, if you could turn to Page E4. And the date of
the execution of the contract is what date?
MR. JACKSON: It's dated 11/3/2009, November 3rd, 2009.
MR. OSSORIO: So it is your opinion that as of that particular
date Mary's Kitchens' certificate was in a delinquent stage?
MR. JACKSON: That certificate was delinquent on 11/3rd.
MR. OSSORIO: If you'd turn to Page E9 -- I'm sorry -- E8 for
me. And this is a -- the Collier County Ordinance 2006-46; am I
correct?
MR. JACKSON: Correct.
MR. OSSORIO: Okay. I'm going to have you go down to 1.1.
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And, basically, that is -- it says, "Unlawful to contract without a
certificate of competency," and then if you'd scroll down to the bottom
of the page, it says, "Within the unincorporated area of Collier County
and the unincorporated area within the boundaries of the City of
Naples or within the City of Marco Island without having first made
application for and having been issued a current and valid certificate."
Do you agree with me that at that -- that certificate is not valid?
MR. JACKSON: At the date of 11/3, that certificate was not
valid.
MR. OSSORIO: Can you explain to the -- tell the board that --
what's it take to get a current certificate now?
MR. JACKSON: To activate this certificate now, the complete
application process would have to be followed through excluding
testing.
MR. OSSORIO: And my question to you, the last question, did
you -- did you notify Mary's Kitchens about their -- once you received
this complaint, did you notify them how to come into compliance and
get an active certificate?
MR. JACKSON: I scheduled two meetings with the qualifier,
Ms. Borrego, to discuss her business, to discuss her license, and it dus
-- discuss what is going to be required to activate this certificate.
Two meetings were not able to take place because Ms. Borrego
was not able to attend. Ultimately, I -- I was able to contact her where
I met with her and ultimately did go over the issue with -- not only this
case, but what she needs to do to activate this certificate.
MR. OSSORIO: I have no other questions.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Do you have any more evidence to
present, Ian?
MR. JACKSON: I have no more evidence. I'll be happy to
answer questions, though.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Any questions from the board for -- for
Ian?o
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February 17, 2010
MR. WHITE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. If -- either Mr. Jackson or Mr.
Ossorio, what happens status-wise after delinquent, and when does
that occur?
MR. JACKSON: Delinquent is a time period from October 1st to
December 31st. January 1st this certificate went to a status of
suspended. Right now the certificate is suspended. It will --
MR. JOSLIN: As of January, you said?
MR. JACKSON: As of January. It will remain suspended from
January 1st, 2010, to December 31st, 2010. January 1st, 2011, this
certificate will become null and void.
MR. JOSLIN: Is it possible that -- that Miss -- oh, shoot.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Borrego.
MR. JOSLIN: -- Borrego could re -- reapply or renew her
original certificate?
MR. JACKSON: This certificate could be reactivated with a --
with a complete application, including a credit report, experience
affidavits, the -- the entire application, excluding testing. There would
not be a testing requirement at this point in time.
MR. WHITE: As a follow-up question, in the time period from
October 1 to December 31 st, what activity or actions on the part of the
contractor is required to move from delinquent to -- to eliminate
delinquency? What do you have to do?
MR. OSSORIO: I understand. Let me answer that question.
There are two phases, actually. When -- when you move from
September -- the end of September to being delinquent from October,
November, or December, the only thing that the contractor, he or she,
has to do is to pay a penalty fee of $30 a month, whatever the -- the
admin cost is. So getting your license from being delinquent to active
in that time period is very easy.
MR. WHITE: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: Once you go into January 1st the following
year, it's suspended. You do have to make the full application, but
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then you have to show -- you have to bring your business credit and
your -- and your full application.
So it is -- you're absolutely right, Mr. Chairman. You're much
easier going once you've been delinquent to get your license back than
suspended. In other words, it wasn't a big deal, if she did contract in
November, to come into the office and pay a late fee and get her
license back. That was much easier to do now.
MR. JOSLIN: That's -- I guess maybe I should ask this question
-- or this questioning goes back to Ms. Borrego. Is this something that
could be done?
MS. BORREGO: To re -- reactivate my license now?
MR. JOSLIN: Yes.
MS. BORREGO: Now, yes. I couldn't have done it in November
or September or December because of all the things that I went
through, but today, yeah. I could do it today. But is that -- is that going
to help her? Is that going to take her money -- you know, give her the
money?
MR. JOSLIN: Well --
MS. BORREGO: I have a piece of property that I put up for sale.
MR. JOSLIN: I'm not trying to -- I'm not trying to say it's going
to help at the moment. I'm just trying to look for avenues here to make
the -- make the -- make this owner whole.
MR. JACKSON: Well--
MR. JOSLIN: And just answer the questions is all for the
moment, okay?
MR. WHITE: Well, I'm a little unclear, and perhaps others can
help me with this. But there isn't a count in this complaint that deals
with status of the license. There is simply one count, and only the first
sentence of that count, that is before us for consideration today; that is
the mismanagement or misconduct causing financial harm to a
customer.
So, although I appreciate the information and clarifications about
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licensure status, I'm not sure how it plays in except to the extent it
may inform us about how we choose to impose some type of
stipulations or penalties because -- am I wrong in coming to the
conclusion that the licensure status isn't something that's part of the
complaint?
MR. NEALE: No, you're -- I would opine that Mr. White is
absolutely correct, that the only thing you're considering here is
whether through the practice of contracting she caused financial harm
to the -- to the homeowner.
Anything else is, as Mr. White suggests, interesting and may
have relevance in terms of determining damages or whatever, but,
frankly, the only consider -- the only thing you can consider is did she
commit mismanagement or misconduct in the practice of contracting
that caused financial harm.
I would -- I would suggest that by reference the rest of 4.1.8 is
incorporated in this, that this is an excerpt there from, and you can
consider all of 4.1.8. But I would certainly suggest that the only thing
you can consider in this -- in this -- in this matter is the financial
mismanagement. The licensure issue is one that is really not -- not
something that is -- is being heard here today.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, may I respond to that?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: (Nodding head.)
MR. OSSORIO: I believe that if you don't have -- keep your
current license active and current, that goes to your business practice
of mismanaging your business. If you don't keep your license active
and current, that goes towards a reflection of your business.
So my only thing is committing mismanagement or misconduct
in the practice of contracting that causes financial harm to her -- to her
customer -- mismanagement in practicing contracting -- if you don't
keep your certificate current and active to be able to conduct business,
how can you go ahead and take a contract knowing your license has
been delinquent? That is mismanagement.
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Now, you can go on in that Section 4.1.8, and you can go on to
many different subsections, but it says -- it just says financial
mismanagement and misconduct is not limited to those items below.
MR. WHITE: There are no items below.
MR. OSSORIO: We're only dealing with 4.1.8.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: We didn't get the items below.
MR. JOSLIN: There's no --
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, there's no items below because we're not
-- we're not -- it's just mismanagement of conduct of the license. I'm
taking a specific part of it. It just says it's not limited to the following
below. Those are not applicable. What I'm saying to you is, is that
committing mismanagement or misconduct in the practice of
contracting that causes financial harm to a consumer, by not having
her business license, her certificate, which you authorized, current and
active, she went out and took a contract knowingly that her license and
certificate was in a delinquent stage. Her business was not up and
running. She took a -- financially harmed a consumer.
MR. WHITE: But -- but is it the county's position, Mr. Ossorio,
that the status of her license caused the financial harm? It's -- would it
be --
MR. OSSORIO: I'm saying to you her status of her license is part
of her mismanagement. She mismanagement -- her company, by not
having her license active and current, caused her financial-- she
couldn't even do the contract.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Let me interrupt. Let me interrupt for a
second because I think we're -- we're kind of getting off on a tangent
that -- that may not be relevant. It sounds like --
MR. WHITE: Good point.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- the argument -- the count is that there
was harm brought to a homeowner. There could have been a second
count, from Mr. White's viewpoint as an example, that -- you could
have had a Count II, which is it's unlawful to contract without a
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certificate of competency because her certificate was delinquent. You
could have had a Count II with regard to her license being delinquent.
Your argument is that the fact that she allowed her license to be
delinquent is part of her mismanagement of her business.
MR. OSSORIO: That is correct.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So if that's what I'm understanding--
does that sound like what -- where you two are both coming from?
MR. WHITE: It's most of where I'm coming from. My point is is
that the status of her license is not what caused the financial harm; it is
every other aspect of the mismanagement in the practice of
contracting that did.
MR. JOSLIN: Yes.
MR. NEALE: Yeah. I -- and I concur with Mr. White's point is
that the -- the fact that the -- the apparent fact that she does not and did
not have a license is evi -- may be evidence that she committed
mismanagement, but it is not, in fact, a cause of the financial harm to
the customer.
MR. JERULLE: Well, we don't know that yet. We haven't heard
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Right. We need to have -- Ms. Borrego
needs to present her case, and then we can continue to move forward.
MR. OSSORIO: I just wanted to speak to what Mr. Neale's
basically said. We've asked Mrs. Borrego to get her license active and
current, and she refuses.
MS. BORREGO: Excuse me. I don't refuse. Let me just go back,
okay, just to --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Let's --
MS. BORREGO: Can I?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Ms. Borrego, let's have -- let's have you
present your case, please.
MS. BORREGO: Okay . Well, taking it from what he's saying, I
have -- he's making it look like I couldn't pay my license so I don't
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know how to manage a business. Fine.
Now, you tell me how does Big Cypress Marketplace manage a
business with 220 vendors paying over a thousand dollars every
month go filing bankruptcy a year later, and then we find out right
now that they never spent a dollar in advertising, so nobody knows
that we are out there. Okay. We don't get customers coming in. Yeah,
they came in through them, and I got so many customers, but not
enough to keep me going, you know.
So in July, August, everything started going down. If you go and
visit the marketplace, you'll see from 220 vendors there's probably 50.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Ms. Borrego, I appreciate that the current
market conditions have created a hardship for you.
MS. BORREGO: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: We need you to present your case in
defense of your actions --
MS. BORREGO: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- with regard to this specific situation.
MS. BORREGO: No problem.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MS. BORREGO: In regards to this situation, because the
situation, the economic situation, yes, I did not renew my license. I
was in the middle of maybe having to buy food for my kids versus
going and paying the $200 for my license. So, yeah, that is apriority,
of course. I have three kids. They have to drink milk. You know, they
have to eat. What do I do? Go pay the license?
You know, I know I'm making a big mistake even more taking
her money, but it was never my intention to take this money, run, and
go out -- where? Where am I going to go with $5,000? You know, I
wanted to do her kitchen, but one thing led to another, and I just got
caught up in a big mess.
And when -- when -- the day that the permit was issued, July -- I
mean, December 8th, I have a -- I don't know if I have it, but that same
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day when I got home I find a little red sticker that I have to leave my
house. So, yes, I'm in the middle of all this; that's why I don't answer
the phone calls.
I want to be -- you know, I want to be dead for -- you know, for
God's sake, you know, I don't want to deal with all this. I don't want to
hear it. What am I going to say? You know, and that's just one of the
problems.
Never my intention -- because if it was my intentions to take the
$5,000 and run away, why would I have gone and -- and have a friend,
you know, pull the permits, let's do this work? No.
You know, I've been here for 5 1/2 years. My kids go to the same
school for the 5 112 years. I've been trying to work, but every time I'm
-- I feel that I'm climbing up, boom, I get hit in my head again.
I -- I don't know what else to do. I have a piece of property that I
was going to try to explain to you two weeks ago I put it on the MLS.
I have my real estate license, too, but I had a friend put it on the MLS.
Hopefully we sell it. I have it, like, rock bottom price. You know, they
can lien the property. They can wait 'til I sell it. I don't know what to
do.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I understand.
MS. BORREGO: I am -- I'm being as honest as I can be. I don't
know what to do.
MR. JOSLIN: Let me just -- well, let's just make a long story
short. What you're -- what you're admitting, then, to is the charges that
are against you here -- you are agreeing that they are valid, what has
happened?
MS. BORREGO: Yeah, everything is true. Everything that she
said is true. I went to her house, and I -- I did a contract, and I got the
money.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Do you have -- do you have any
witnesses to call? Do you have any evidence you want to present to
the board?
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February 17,2010
MS. BORREGO: No. I don't have nobody here, no.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Does staff?
MR. JOSLIN: I have -- I have a couple -- I have a couple of
questions for Mrs. --
MS. LACZI: Laczi.
MR. JOSLIN: I've got checks that are signed here.
MS. LACZI: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: I've got a contract, first, okay, that you signed -- I
think it's E4 -- with Mary's Kitchens.
MS. LACZI: Yes, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: And it's got a total amount of$12,500, I believe.
MS. LACZI: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: Fifty-seven fifty is the deposit. And then the -- at
the bottom, the fine lines down near the bottom, it states right there all
in black and white that -- it says, "Checks to be made payable to
Mary's Kitchens & Interiors, Inc."
What was your reasoning for signing -- or issuing checks to a --
just Mary Borrego? Which I have two cancelled checks of yours that
totaled $5,700.
MS. LACZI: Well, that's what she told me, to make the checks
payable to her.
MR. JOSLIN : Well, did you not sign the bottom of this contract?
MS. LACZI: I did.
MR. JOSLIN: Did you not read it?
MS. LACZI: Probably I didn't read that section.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay. That's all I have.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. So, Ms. Borrego, you have no
evidence to provide; you have no other witnesses to call?
MS. BORREGO: No.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Does staffhave any questions of Ms.
Borrego?
MR. JACKSON: I don't.
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February 17,2010
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Then we're ready for closing
statements.
MR. WHITE: I find myself in a difficult spot here. Has -- has
anyone actually said that the work was not done?
MS. LACZI: I did.
MR. JOSLIN: I believe Mrs. Laczi said it's not done as of yet.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Mrs. Laczi.
MS. BORREGO: It hasn't been done yet.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: At this point she doesn't want it done; she
just wants her money back.
MR. WHITE: I understand. Okay. Then -- then thank you for
correcting my understanding because there seemed to be that key link,
at least in my mind, that I was -- just hadn't heard.
MR. NEALE: And I believe we did get testimony from the
homeowner that the work had not been completed, so --
MR. JACKSON: That is correct.
MS. BORREGO: Work -- work hasn't been started at all.
MR. WHITE: Thank you. That -- that's all I needed.
MR. JOSLIN: Is the permit still active?
MS. BORREGO: Yes. Yeah, I believe it's for six months, right?
MR. JACKSON: The -- the permit is active.
MR. JOSLIN: It is active?
MR. JACKSON: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: Under Mary's Kitchens?
MS. BORREGO: No, it's to Ash Ann Homes, which is a general
contractor. It's a friend of mine that goes and does a bunch of work.
And when I went back to her asking for the $242, it was for the
permits for that because he didn't want to put it out of his pocket. He's
already been putting a lot of effort into this, and he said, "Mary, have
her pay for the permit. I'll pick it up. And then we can get started."
She didn't want to do that, so it's more stuff on top of me. Okay.
Now, I've got to -- "Don't worry about it. I'll pay for it." But it's just
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there. He's willing to do it. He's willing to go ahead and do -- get
started with the work.
I'm trying to see if my cabinet manufacturer will do the cabinets
and then give me 30 days. I get paid from her at the end, and I pay
them. And just even if I don't make a dime, but at least she gets her
work, but she doesn't want to do it.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Mr. Boyd, do you have -- do you have a
comment or question?
MR. BOYD: Yeah. Does the contractor that pulled the permit--
are they responsible in any way?
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Boyd, I'll go ahead --
MR. BOYD: I mean, I would think, you know, I -- I pull a
permit, and I've got to do a notice of commencement and everything
else.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Boyd, you're absolutely right. And -- and
I'll explain to you -- there's three jurisdictions here. There's the City of
Naples, there's the City of Marco Island, and Collier County.
This is a single family home. If you were in Collier County, to
take out cabinets, put new cabinets in, no permit is required. This
contract is valid. It doesn't show any electrical or plumbing. This
contract is for cabinet installing; taking cabinets, putting cabinets in
and out.
Unfortunately, the City of Marco Island, the building official,
which we have no jurisdiction over, basically says that "I don't care. I
want a building permit on -- on that aspect of it." Well, all -- all they're
actually doing is taking cabinets and putting cabinets in.
The City of Marco Island is basically putting a -- you know, and
this is a complaint that's valid throughout cabinet companies all over
Marco Island, that they're making cabinet companies go out and get a
general contractor to pull a building permit which really doesn't
require a lice -- a building permit for the City of Naples or Marco or--
the City of Naples or Collier County, but the City of Marco Island
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February 17,2010
says, "We want to have a general contractor."
So the act of contracting on this -- on the application you --
which you'll see, is just for cabinets. But the City of Marco Island is
putting more restrictions and said, "We want to see a general
contractor pull the building permit."
So that's something we're going to work with Marco Island, but
be that as it may, we're not here to talk about the building permit itself.
But it is an issue we're working with the City of Marco Island with
because, like, if you were a sign company and you want to put a sign
up on a -- on a -- on a commercial building and -- and they're saying --
the City of Marco Island is basically saying, "You know what, Mr.
Boyd? Yeah, you're a sign company, but I want to have a building
contractor pull the building permit only."
That doesn't make -- it's not very fair. And you're only working
in the scope of what your certificate calls for. So we're working with
the City of Marco Island.
MR. JOSLIN: But the question, though, Michael, is that another
company that pulled the permit to install these cabinets or do this
cabinet work, whatever it was going to be, new or renovation work,
then -- but Mary's Kitchens is the one who contracted the work.
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah. And -- and I don't want to go ahead and
bring any -- we might have a case, but we're not --
MR. JOSLIN: In the con -- in -- in -- in Mary's Kitchens
Cabinets' contract, if you read the bottom lines, it clearly says Mary's
is a manufacturer of the cabinets and that they are allowed to hire as a
crew installers.
So who is the installer, and who is the permit puller, and does the
permit puller have no obligation here?
MR. OSSORIO: I submit to you that -- that Mary's Kitchen is
contracted. She took the contract to do the installing. She might have
the authority to sub out contracting; in other words, if -- if Mary's
Kitchens can't do it, she's going to hire another cabinet company.
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That's fine.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: That's above and beyond. I don't want to get
into specifics of the building permit. That's not part of the -- and I
don't want -- because you might hear that case coming up, so I would
like to go ahead and just, you know, stick to what we're here for today.
MR. JOSLIN: I understand that part of it, but I'm not totally
content that we're -- we're in the same boat as far as who is responsible
for what. I'm just a little lost here. I can see the point of Mary's
Kitchens and Cabinets being responsible for taking the contract and
taking the dollars and cents, but technically, if another contractor now
pulled the permit, she could hire them to go in -- because the contract
is still a valid contract yet, go in there and tell them, "I'll buy the
cabinets. You go put them in," and they have to allow them on the
property to put those cabinets in. She can't just say, "I don't want those
cabinets anymore." She has to allow them to do the work. Does she or
does she not?
MR. LANTZ: I believe a contract written by an unlicensed
contractor is an unenforceable contract.
MR. WHITE: Well, I -- I didn't want to raise the question --
MR. JOSLIN: There's a lot of questions here.
MR. WHITE: -- here.
MR. OSSORIO: But that's not to --
MR. WHITE: Just let me finish, Mr. Ossorio, because you may
want to consider your remarks more carefully.
Can you be contracting if you don't have a valid license?
MR. JOSLIN: Exactly.
MR. WHITE: If -- if -- if the county's position is that it's -- it's the
absence of a valid license that's mismanagement, is it contracting that
causes financial harm? There may be a crime here. I don't know. But
whether we have a licensure issue, to me, is -- is a -- is a hair that -- if
you want to start splitting it, I -- I don't know. I mean, if --
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CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Michael, this is directly related to the
state law that was passed last fall that you and I discussed at length,
remember? This is -- this is an example of what you and I discussed.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, would you say on the face ofE4
__ if you want to go ahead and split hairs, look at E4, Mr. White.
Would you say this contract is unlicensed?
MR. WHITE: I'm not interested in splitting hairs. I have the
testimony of the respondent that's an admission to whatever the
violation is that the county has put forward. I'm prepared to vote and
find that there is a finding of violation.
MR. JERULLE: And maybe I don't understand. Does the count
not say "misconduct in the practice of contracting"?
MR. NEALE: Uh-huh.
MR. JERULLE: Does that make a difference?
MR. NEALE: Well, in order to practice contracting, it's implied
that you have to be a contractor.
MR. WHITE: So, to me, if you're delinquent and all you've got to
do is pay a fee, you still have a license, and you're still contracting. I
understand that the county's position may be different on its face, but
I'm going by what the testimony and the facts are that I have before
me.
And no one's rendered a legal opinion differently, so, in my
mind, there's a violation, and a finding of guilt is appropriate based on
the testimony and the facts. And that's why I said to Michael, "You
may want to think about your position a little more critically."
It -- it -- it doesn't matter to me what the county's position is,
essentially, other than the fact that they have put the correct piece of
the code in front of us and we have the facts that apply to that code
that tells me there's a violation here.
So if it's okay with you other gentlemen, I would make a motion
MR. JOSLIN: Not yet.
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February 17, 2010
MR. WHITE: -- if -- if we're done here. I mean--
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: We -- we need to finish up with the --
with the procedure --
MR. WHITE: We can talk about the whole aspect--
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- of the hearing.
MR. WHITE: I understand. We can talk about the whole aspect
of imposition of fine as a subsequent aspect, I believe. If not --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: The discussion of guilt comes after the
public hearing.
MR. WHITE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: And then the discussion of penalties, if
any, come after the discussion of guilt. We need to get through the
presentation of evidence from both sides. We need to get through
closing arguments so that we can get to the point where we discuss
guilt. If we try to figure out guilt before we get through the evidence
and the closing statements --
MR. WHITE: I'm not suggesting we do that, Mr. Chairman. I'm
just saying that I'm satisfied at this point.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. So where were we? I think the
county was making closing statements; is that correct?
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct.
MR. WHITE: We were responding to questions, I believe.
MR. JOSLIN: That's where we were.
MR. JACKSON: If there are more questions to respond to, I'd
take my best shot at it before the closing.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Then I would say that -- are there any
questions that directly relate to the evidence in the case?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: There being none, Ian, would you please
continue with your closing statement.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Ms. Borrego, the qualifier of
Mary's Kitchens & Interiors, contracted for the installation of this
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kitchen, received $5,750 deposit from the homeowners, and is unable
to execute the contract, does not have the money to repay the
homeowners, and does not have the product to provide the
homeowners for their deposit; mismanaging the business, mis --
committing misconduct, and causing financial harm to the -- to the
homeowner. And with that 1'11-- the county will rest.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Ms. Borrego, closing statement?
MS. BORREGO: How does he know that I don't -- I can't put her
cabinets in? I -- I just asked him in the -- in the break can I continue;
give me 30 -- 45 days, and I'll do her kitchen. It's my problem if I go
to my manufacturer and say, "Listen, I need you to do my cabinets and
give me 30 days to pay for it and do this job." Whether I have the
money or not, I'll get the job done.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Ms. Borrego, I need you to make a
closing statement, and then the county will be able to rebut your
closing statement, but I need you to make a closing statement for us.
MS. BORREGO: What do you want me to say on a closing
statement? I don't know. That's my --
MR. JOSLIN: Basically, I think she's said the closing statement
is that she is --
MS. BORREGO: I never said I don't want to do her kitchen. I
never said -- I do. I don't have the money. I never said, "If you'd give
me 30 days, 45 days I could get the job done." That's what I think.
That's my --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: If -- if -- if that's --
MS. BORREGO: -- bottom line.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- what your closing statement is --
MS. BORREGO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- then you need to say that.
MS. BORREGO: Okay. So that -- that's what it is.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So if you would please restate your
comments so that the board is clear.
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February 17,2010
MS. BORREGO: Okay. If I'm allowed to go ahead and make my
__ renew my license, if that's what you guys want, for me to pay and
keep working and give me 30 days or 45 days, I'll get the job done and
take advantage of this permit that we have here for her house, which --
we have worked. You know, the -- her house is old enough where
nobody has floor plans of this house, and they -- we had to go in there
and manually do a floor plan, and that's -- nobody does that for free.
So there is work involved in her house.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Thank you. Rebuttal from the--
from the county?
MR. JACKSON: I have no rebuttal.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Are there any other questions of
the -- of the respondent, staff, or the witnesses?
MR. JOSLIN: Just one last comment then. What I'm
understanding, if I'm hearing this correctly, is that, as of right now,
you are ready and able to go and finish this cabinet installation that
you contracted for. With or without the money, you could get this job
done --
MS. BORREGO: Yeah. Yeah. The word "finish," no.
MR. JOSLIN: -- provided --
MS. BORREGO: We want to get started. We never got started.
Her kitchen is the way it is.
MR. JOSLIN : Well, finish --
MS. BORREGO: It hasn't been --
MR. JOSLIN: -- complete the contract--
MS. BORREGO: Yeah.
MR. JOSLIN: -- providing that there is a method to bring your
license back to a current status?
MS. BORREGO: Uh huh, yes.
MR. JOSLIN: Now, this is something that has to be done through
staff and through putting something of this nature together because I
know that this board has in the past allowed people to reinstate
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licenses that have been suspended or have gone into this same mode,
correct?
MR. OSSORIO: That is correct. There's nothing stopping Mary's
Kitchen to come in my office today --
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: -- yesterday, the day before--
MR. JOSLIN: Right.
MR. OSSORIO: -- a week ago, a month ago, two months ago to
get her license active so she can finish her contract.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay. That's all I'm asking, and that's all I say.
Yes, I guess.
MS. LACZI: I would like to say that her -- her not having the
contract or her having a delinquent contract did not stop her not to do
my job. I don't know what stopped her. November, December,
January, February, four months, she -- she wants another month to do
my -- to do the job.
I would agree with that. Start tomorrow, Mary. Start in a week.
Start in -- in -- because I don't have -- as I said, I -- in a month I'm
going to go to Romania with my mother that is 82 years old.
And if she has problems, I have problems. I don't have any
income. I live on my husband's Social Security. I have two children.
So I have to eat. I have to pay taxes. I have to pay insurance for the
home in Marco Island. So I understand she has problems. I have
problems too.
But she didn't -- she didn't think twice of taking my money
knowingly that she cannot even start the job, not -- not talking finish
the job. So now, okay, she doesn't have the money. How is she going
to finish my job if she doesn't have the money?
I agree. I -- I want her to finish the -- I want the kitchen done. I
want it done as we -- we understood each other. And when she came
with Ariel, with -- with the -- with the contractor, it was the kitchen,
the -- the -- the bar. Ariel was going to remove half of the wall in
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February 17, 2010
between the bar and the kitchen area, and she said, "Everything is
included. Permit, whatever it is. Even if we scratch your wall" -- here
she is -- "even if we scratch your wall."
MS. BORREGO: No. No
MS. LACZI: "We're going to finish everything. We -- we -- we
take the cabinets down. We put the cab -- we install the cabinets in the
garage, whatever you want."
So whatever I wanted, not even -- I didn't know -- I didn't even
tell her what I want. She came up with the suggestions and her -- her
friend, Rosemary. "Oh, this would go better. That would go better.
That would be nice. That -- we'll do that for you. We'll put this for
you, that for you," whatever.
So, okay, if she can finish the job, I -- I -- I agree. Finish the job,
but who is going to -- to -- to -- to keep her accountable that she is
going to start and finish the job? Because she can start tomorrow, and
I will be there a year from now without a kitchen.
MS. BORREGO: Never -- that has never happened.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Ms. Laczi. Excuse me. Ms. Laczi, thank
you very much for your comments. We appreciate them.
If there's no more evidence to be -- to -- presented, I need a
motion to close the public hearing.
MR. BOYD: So moved.
MR. WHITE: Second.
MR. JOSLIN: Second.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in Favor?
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Opposed?
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(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
Mr. Neale --
MR. NEALE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- please remind us what our job is here
this afternoon.
MR. WHITE: Before he starts, if I may, Mr. Chairman, quite
simply, we've seen some complicated cases in my brief tenure on this
board. This case isn't complicated. The resolution of this matter--
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: That's correct.
MR. WHITE: -- is complicated. And -- and before we get too far
down the tracks, two things have changed since my last set of remarks
about findings of violation; one is the harmed party has indicated that
there's an alternative solution here. If that alternative solution is
implemented, it, in fact, could create a circumstance where there is no
financial harm.
If there's no financial harm, then the only mismanagement left
was the idea beforehand about mismanagement simply because her
contract -- her license status changed to suspended -- or to delinquent.
Excuse me. It is now suspended.
MR. NEALE: Well--
MR. WHITE: It seems to me, if the contractor renews her
license, gets the cabinets in whatever fashion is appropriate installed,
done and over within 30 days, we don't have a case.
MR. JOSLIN: There's no need for a case.
MR. JERULLE: Well, let me--
MR. WHITE: So my -- my -- my point is how do we assure that
that happens so that if it doesn't these people aren't harmed and the
person who's responsible is appropriately on the hook? That's -- that's
why this case is -- as a matter is complicated in terms of its resolution,
not in terms of the findings. And -- and so that's the only reason I
wanted to say something as a kind of summary before Mr. Neale
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started.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Let me get -- let me get Terry, and
then we'll get Lee.
MR. HORN: Just an answer to Mr. White. I believe it's in our
pew -- purview to continue something for the 30 days, if we so
desired.
MR. NEALE: Yes, it is.
MR. HORN: Okay. Thank you.
MR. NEALE: And this matter could be continued by the board, if
it -- if it's in its purview. And I just want to follow one thing with Mr.
-- just before we get away from Mr. White's comments.
It -- the -- the ordinance and the state statute is very specific in
that -- and -- and I'm going to put this in order of an informal way, but
I think it's -- it may be more effective. A contractor can be a horrible
manager and can per -- can perform all kinds of misconduct if they
don't cause financial harm because the statute is very -- and the
ordinance is very specific.
It's mismanagement or misconduct that causes financial harm,
and I think that's -- that's the -- you know, there's two pieces to it, so __
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Terry, you had a comment.
MR. JERULLE: We're going to have a discussion?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: We -- we need to close the public
hearing, and then we'll go into deliberation.
MR. JERULLE: I'll wait until the discussion.
MR. NEALE: The public hearing's closed. You already voted on
that.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: We did close the public -- okay. Good.
Okay. So -- so you were going to charge us, and then we can get into
our deliberation on guilt, which is what we're supposed to be doing.
MR. NEALE: Right.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay.
MR. NEALE: And we'll go through this at -- everybody here, I
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think, has heard this before, but for the benefit of the -- of the
respondent particularly, is that the board shall ascertain in its
deliberations that fundamental fairness and due process were afforded
to the respondent; however, the formal rules of evidence as set out in
Florida Statutes do not apply to these matters.
The board shall consider solely evidence presented at this hearing
in the consideration of this matter. It shall exclude from its
deliberations irrelevant, immaterial, and cumulative testimony. It shall
admit and consider all other evidence of the type commonly relied
upon by a reasonably prudent pert -- person in the conduct of their
affairs, it says, whether or not the evidence so admitted would be
admissible in a court of law or equity.
Hearsay may be used to explain or supplement any other
evidence; however, hearsay by itself in this kind of matter is not
sufficient support of finding, unless it would be admissible in a civil
court over objection.
The standard of proof in this kind of case where the respondent
may lose their privilege to practice the profession is that the evidence
pra -- pra -- presented by the complainant, presented by the county,
must prove the complainant's case in a clear and convincing manner.
This burden of proof on the complainant is a heavier burden than
the preponderance of evidence standard set out for civil cases. The
standard and evidence are to be weighed solely as to the charges set
out in the complaint as Ordinance 90-105, Section 4.1.8 of the Collier
County Code of Ordinances, and that is committing mismanagement
or misconduct in the practice of contracting that causes financial harm
to a customer.
Financial harm -- financial mismanagement or misconduct
includes, but is not limited to, any of the following. If the board is
interested, I can read what that -- what those considerations are in the
ordinance; however, the county has stated on the record that they
specifically only want to consider the part in the charges, so I will -- I
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will not do that at this point.
The standard here is -- specifically is set out in the charge, and in
order to support a finding that the respondent is in violation, it must __
the board must find facts that show the violations were committed by
the respondent.
The facts must also show to a clear and convincing standard the
legal conclusion that the respondent was in violation of those -- the
relevant section, 4.1.8.
These charges -- this charge specifically is the only one that the
board may decide upon, as this is the only one to which the respondent
had the opportunity to prepare a defense.
The damages, if any, must be those directly related to this charge;
may not be damages that are caused by other actions of the
respondent. The decision made by this board shall be stated orally at
this hearing and is effective upon being read.
The respondent, if found in violation, has appeal rights to this
board, the Court, and the state construction industry licensing board as
set out in the county ordinance and in the Florida Statutes and Florida
Administrative Code.
If the board is unable to issue a decision immediately following
the hearing because of questions of law or other matters of such a
nature that a decision may not be made at this hearing, the board may
withhold its decision until a subsequent meeting.
The board shall vote based upon the evidence presented on all
areas and, if it finds the respondent in violation, adopt the
administrative complaint.
The board shall also make findings of fact and conclusions of law
in support of those charges. And the board now can enter into
deliberation.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: The first issue -- the first issue we need to
address is the issue of guilt.
Kyle.
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February 17,2010
MR. LANTZ: Well, I'm torn on this because, to me, financial
mismanagement -- although my gut tells me she took the money for
the deposit and spent it on something else and didn't do it, it's only
been a couple of months, and there's plenty of construction contracts,
especially kitchen remodels, that there is no deadline in the contract,
nothing like that.
And, although I -- I -- my gut tells me there's financial
mismanagement, my personal opinion is I don't think there's enough
time to determine financial mismanagement. That's just me.
MR. JOSLIN: I have a comment that says I think the board
because of -- we've heard testimony from Ms. Borrego, we've heard
testimony from the homeowner that each one of them is in -- or, I
guess, ready to make some kind of an adjustment as far as to -- they're
willing to accept the cabinets if she can do them. She's willing to do
the cabinets if she can get her license back together again.
I think at this moment maybe the best interests of both parties,
because of the fact that Ms. Borrego has said she can't pay the money
back to her now, so it's not going to do us any good to do anything to
her license or to her -- so the only recoup to help the -- the owner get
their product that they've contracted for would be to allow them to do
the cabinets in the 30-day period that we've talked about and maybe
continue the case as far as a penalty or as a guilt finding until this
30-day period happens and see if it does come together and see if the
problem then does go away. That's my feeling.
MR. WHITE: I have to --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Excuse me. Excuse me one second, Pat.
Terry .
MR. WHITE: I'm sorry.
MR. JERULLE: And this is probably a silly question. Is there
any way we can reopen the public hearing?
MR. LANTZ: Sure.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS : Yeah, you can make a motion to reopen
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February 17,2010
the public heard.
MR. JERULLE: I make a motion to reopen --
MR. LANTZ: Make a motion to reopen.
MR. WHITE: Second.
MR. JERULLE: On a -- okay. The second question I have is--
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: What was his first question? That was his
first question.
MR. WHITE: The motion was to reopen it. I seconded his
motion.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: No. No, he asked if we could, and then he
said --
MR. WHITE: Oh, I'm sorry.
MR. NEALE: He didn't make the motion. He just asked the
question if he could.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Right. He asked the question if we could,
and then he said the second question --
MR. WHITE: So sorry.
MR. JOSLIN: Do you want to open it first or --
MR. JERULLE: No. No, I --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: He's asking two questions.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MR. JERULLE: Did we ask where the funds went that she took
for the deposit?
MR. JOSLIN: That's immaterial.
MR. JERULLE: I don't recall. I'm asking the board if --
MR. LANTZ: No, I --
MR. JERULLE: -- if anyone --
MR. LANTZ: I don't recall any testimony.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: In Ms. Borrego's testimony -- in Ms.
Borrego's testimony, she stated that she used money to feed her
children and buy milk and, therefore, she didn't have the money to pay
for her license.
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February 17,2010
MR. JERULLE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So you could infer that those funds were
used to maintain her household from her comments.
MS. BORREGO: And the business too. And the business too.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: And the business too.
MS. BORREGO: The showroom and all of that stuff.
MR. JERULLE: Okay. And then that answer -- then I don't
require to open up -- a motion for -- to open up the public hearing. If
we know where the funds went or have an idea where the funds went,
to me, I -- answers in my mind the mismanagement question.
MR. WHITE: From -- from my point of view, there -- there
wasn't adequate testimony to draw an inference. The county never told
us where they thought it went, and, although she -- she made some
statements about what she spent her money on, she never said that the
dollars she spent were their dollars that were given to her.
So I'm -- I understand that an inference could be drawn. I'm not
prepared to draw it at this point, so --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Why is that relevant?
MR. WHITE: I -- I think it's immaterial, actually, but I just didn't
agree with your assessment of it.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Well, she -- she sent a letter to us that
says she can't afford to pay the money back and she wanted to make
payments.
MR. WHITE: That's true, but that's a different issue.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So why is it relevant where the money
might be if she says she can't afford to pay it back --
MR. WHITE: I don't think it is.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- and that she can only afford to make
small monthly payments? I don't know if she's got the money in a big
wad in her pocket or in an offshore account somewhere, if where the
money is is relevant to determining whether or not she's guilty.
MR. WHITE: Mr. Chairman, my point is that it's not.
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MR. LANTZ: She could have paid the money to the -- she could
have paid the money to the cabinet supplier, for all we know.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: She could have done that.
MR. JACKSON: Yeah, that was my--
MR. WHITE: And -- and so, looking to get to the gentleman's
"Wisdom of Solomon" approach to this, there is no financial
mismanagement, per se. That's not the charge. It's mismanagement;
contracting that causes financial harm.
If the property owner is willing to accept having the cabinets
brought in, and if the contractor has the right, so long as there are con
-- cabinets to put in, to enter upon the property to do so and it's agreed
that they would allow them to do so, there seems to be a way to
resolve this to assure ourselves within 30 days from now or not
whether there is financial harm or not.
So from my point of view, notwithstanding my earlier comments
about how I may have intended to vote, I don't know, based upon what
we now have in the record, that there has been financial harm. And I
don't accept the proposition on the county's part that simply because
your license was in a delinquent status and you executed a contract
that you somehow mismanaged in the practice of contracting that
caused financial harm.
I -- I may get two of the elements there, but I don't get all. Three
-- there -- there's no financial harm again. So I'm -- I'm at a place
where I'm -- I'm very much interested in the other perspectives that
you gentlemen have in -- in trying to work this case --
MR. JOSLIN: I think--
MR. WHITE: -- what's best for all parties, including us.
MR. JOSLIN: I think there's going to be more financial harm
involved in this if -- if there's not some kind of a happy --
MR. WHITE: Correct.
MR. JOSLIN: -- I'll call it the -- the wisdom or whatever you
called it, worked out because of the fact -- this is a win-win situation if
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-- if -- if we're in -- involved in trying to do it this way. If we go the
other route and the $5,700 is gone, it's -- it's not going to be replaced.
She doesn't have it.
The people still don't have their cabinets in, so -- and they have
to leave town, so that's not going to happen. So now we're going to
still sit in here with -- is it financial harm ? Yes, we could take -- we
could do a lot of things at the moment, right, to -- to this license
holder, but is it going to be a win situation for -- for the actual
customer of Collier County? I don't think it's going to be.
MR. WHITE: And -- and the other.
MR. JOSLIN: I think the only way is to work it out because
they're both willing to.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Well, let's not lose track of the fact
that our first order of business is to determine guilt. You can talk about
-- I'm not going to sit in a room and negotiate a deal between these
people. If you want to do that, Richard, that's fine. Patrick, if you want
to offer up your services to act as a mediator --
MR. WHITE: Not a chance.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- you can do that. But our order of
service is to determine guilt.
MR. JOSLIN: We don't--
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: But regardless of what the penalty may
be, our job --
MR. JOSLIN: No.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- is to determine guilt.
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Lykos, you're incorrect. We do not have to
make a determination of that today. This can be continued until 30
days from now and give them a chance to work this out, whether it be
with us as a mediator or whoever they want to get as a mediator . We
do not have to act on a guilty or innocent factor right now.
MR. NEALE: And the board does have, you know, very clearly
the ability to continue the matter. You know, it's specific that, if
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February 17,2010
there's a question in law or other matters that allow the board -- that
the board doesn't want to make or doesn't feel it should make a
decision as -- as of today on guilt, innocence, or whatever, the board
can continue this matter to a -- to another day, at which point in time
they would feel -- the board would feel that they would have more
evidence or evidence that would -- that would be relevant to the
matter.
MR. WHITE: Can -- can I help maybe some of the board
members who may not be sure about the direction we should take
here? If -- in the interest of making a request for a continuance, we
also ask of board counsel to respond to the question of whether the
practice of contracting can take place under a suspended or delinquent
license, because to me that's a question, I think, that may be
fundamentally a kind of hole in the code.
And if we can use this example to fashion some type of an
opinion that'll guide us both in this case and -- and down the road and
help the county in how it brings its cases forward --
MR. NEALE: If -- if I may cite to 489.128(1), it states,
specifically, "As a matter of public policy, contracts entered into after
-- on or after October 1, 1990, by an unlicensed contractor shall be
unenforceable in law or in equity by the unlicensed contractor."
MR. WHITE: Correct. But it does not necessarily mean that the
MR. NEALE: It specifically says, if I -- if I may, in Subsection 3
that this -- this section shall not affect the rights of parties other than
the unlacense -- licensed contractor to enforce the contract, lien, or
bond remedies --
MR. WHITE: So --
MR. NEALE: -- which specifically -- you know, unlike a lot of
people -- you think, well, it's an unenforceable contract. No, it's only
unenforceable by the contractor.
MR. WHITE: Correct.
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February 17, 2010
MR. NEALE: It's specifically enforceable by the -- by the person
who signed the contract.
MR. WHITE: Who's in this case potentially the ones that could
be harmed.
MR. NEALE: Uh-huh.
MR. WHITE: And -- and so in -- like I -- in addition to the
impact on the license of this contractor that we are able to do
something about -- and we could impose restitution. It seems
counterproductive to do that at this point because I think that that adds
to the harm, and if the intent here is to lessen the financial harm and
improve their position, holding this off for 30 days doesn't weaken
their position, lessen our jurisdiction, and it gives her a chance to
either keep her word or, more damningly, next month make very clear
that finding a violation -- finding of guilt under the violation is there
because there is financial harm. You -- you've made that commitment.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Kyle.
MR. LANTZ: I'm just curious as to what the two parties have to
say. I'm all for continuing it. I personally feel it's more of a civil
matter that we shouldn't even be looking at to begin with, but that's
just my opinion, not the opinion of probably most of the world. But
I'm just wondering what the two interested parties have, if we were to
continue it.
MR. JOSLIN: Let's open the public hearing one more time, and
we'll ask them.
MR. NEALE: Well, actually, you can -- you don't even have to--
for this point, you don't have to really open -- reopen the public
hearing.
MR. JOSLIN: No?
MR. NEALE: Because you're taking testimony that's relevant to
your deliberations, so I believe you don't have to reopen the public
hearing. You're just taking testimony relevant to the deliberations.
MR. JOSLIN: Then I can ask a question to them?
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February 17, 2010
MR. NEALE: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Ms. Borrego is already at the
microphone.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay. Ms. Borrego, a question for you straight up,
can you -- are you ready, willing, and able to go and put this cabinets
-- this set of cabinets into this -- Elena Laczi's kitchen?
MS. BORREGO: I'm willing to start the process of ordering --
ordering the cabinets, which are custom made. They have to be done.
Six weeks -- the way that I'm doing the math here, I should be done
with everything no later than April 15th. And the -- the permits are
good for six months anyways, so I --
MR. JERULLE: So you have not ordered the cabinets yet?
MS. BORREGO: No.
MR. JERULLE: You took the deposit from them to order the
cabinets --
MS. BORREGO: Yes.
MR. JERULLE: -- to give to the cabinet company, but did you
not give it to the cabinet company?
MS. BORREGO: Exactly, no.
MR. JERULLE: And so, therefore, the cabinets have not yet been
ordered?
MS. BORREGO: No. They have the layout; they have the
design, but I have not yet put the deposit up.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay. Now, just one other question for the
members of the board who may know, is this a customary operation
when you put in new cabinets that you -- when they're custom, you
have to order them, and it takes a period of time for them to come in?
MR. LANTZ: It is.
MS. BORREGO: Yes.
MR. LANTZ: However, my question is -- the original contract
was November 3rd, and from -- what I recall hearing was that the job
would be completely done by -- December 3rd was the original date,
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February 17,2010
and now we're being told it's six weeks to get the cabinets in when that
was only --
MS. BORREGO: Well, no, we're going back.
MR. LANTZ: -- four weeks.
MS. BORREGO: We're going back again to the letter that I
wrote to all of you explaining my personal situation. And there's no
way that I could do the -- the -- her cabinets, even if I wanted to, even
if I paid for it December 1 st, because the City of Marco Island
approved it December 8th. So even if I wanted to, even if I ran and
paid for it --
MR. LANTZ: I -- I understand that. I'm -- I'm just questioning, if
your original intent when you wrote the contract was that you could
order the cabinets and get the whole job done in four weeks, which __
I'm a kitchen guy. Kitchens are my specialty, so I understand it
usually takes six weeks to get cabinets out.
MS. BORREGO: It takes Home Depot and -- and Lowe's three
months, so --
MR. LANTZ: I understand. I also know I can get flat pack
cabinets in a week if I call, so it depends on the manufacturer.
MS. BORREGO: Uh huh.
MR. LANTZ: But if it originally could be done -- the whole job
done in four weeks, regarding the permit issue that, you know, I don't
think you under -- maybe you didn't understand at the time you wrote
-- signed the contract; you didn't figure it out 'tillater.
MS. BORREGO: Uh huh.
MR. LANTZ: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for that.
MS. BORREGO: Uh huh, uh huh.
MR. LANTZ: But if the job could be done in four weeks, why
now is it going to take six weeks just to get the cabinets in when
before you would have had the whole job done in four weeks?
MS. BORREGO: Uh huh. Because I -- I -- already explained it,
but I could explain it again. After I did the contract with her, I had a
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February 17, 2010
bunch of -- the Marketplace having all kinds of problems, you know,
paying their rent, paying my warehouse and office, which I ended up
closing by the end of November --
MR. JOSLIN: Okay. This is all --
MS. BORREGO: -- and my house. And it was just so many
personal things.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay. This is what we've heard. We've heard this
before.
MS. BORREGO: Exactly. But he's asking. He doesn't know.
MR. JOSLIN: I think that we're -- that's been answered.
MR. JERULLE: Actually, I have one more question. So -- so you
took the deposit and used it for something other than --
MS. BORREGO: For different stuff. It wasn't for me. I didn't go
traveling.
MR. JERULLE: Do you have a line -- do you have a line of
credit for -- with a bank?
MS. BORREGO: No. No.
MR. JERULLE: So -- so there -- you don't have the money you
took for their cabinets to order the cabinets, and you don't have a line
of credit from a bank to order the cabinets?
MS. BORREGO: No. But I could -- I could -- I'm in the sit -- I'm
in the position right now talking to the manufacturer for them to give
me 30 days from order -- they're going to do the cabinets for me. I'm
going to go ahead and install them for them. When they pay me the
balance, I'll pay them.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: You comment in your letter to us that
you bid this job so low that you were only going to make about $500.
MS. BORREGO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: If you've already spent $5,750--
MS. BORREGO: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- that gives you $5,750 to buy cabinets
and countertops --
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February 17, 2010
MS. BORREGO: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- and, it looks like, an appliance
package.
MS. BORREGO: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Somebody's not getting paid.
MS. BORREGO: I'm not going to get paid. I'm going to be --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: No. No. No. No, you misunderstand me.
Somebody else isn't getting paid. Otherwise, you're telling us --
MS. BORREGO: Uh huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- if you were only going to make $500 to
begin with --
MS. BORREGO: Uh huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- and -- and $5,700 is already gone--
MS. BORREGO: Uh huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- you're going to buy cabinets for $5,700
-- you're going to buy -- I'm sorry -- cabinets --
MS. BORREGO: Appliances.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- countertops, and appliances for $5,700.
MS. BORREGO: No. No, I'm not saying that. There's no way
that I could do that, but it -- when I get either money from the income
tax or any other money coming in, I'm going to finish her house -- her
-- her job.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Thank you.
MS. BORREGO: Even though I'm not going to make money at
all. I'm going to lose money because whatever I was going to make in
her house -- in her kitchen I've already -- I've already, you know, used
it.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So who -- if you finish her job, who
won't get paid? The appliance people or the countertop people or the
cabinet company?
MS. BORREGO: How come they're not getting paid? I'm not
going to get paid.
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February 17,2010
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Well, where's the money going to come
from to finish the job?
MS. BORREGO: Well, if I do all this -- if I -- if I get my license
and I do other jobs and I'm going to make a thousand here or two
thousand here, of course, I can make two, three thousand dollars in a
kitchen, not with them because they included appliances, this and that,
and now two hundred and forty two dollar to the Marco Island--
because there's other companies saying, "I could do your kitchen for
$7,000. "
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. That's their problem.
MS. BORREGO: Well, you know, there -- everybody's out there
nowadays doing that.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: What -- what -- what the board members
have to understand is that there are members of our board that think
that you can somehow finish this job and everybody will be left
whole, and what they need to understand is, because half of the money
is already gone, there -- there's no way for you to make everybody
whole in this relationship.
Somebody will not get paid. The cabinets won't get paid for, the
countertops won't get paid for, or the appliances won't get paid for.
MS. BORREGO: Uh huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Or you'll start the job --
MS. BORREGO: Uh huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- and you'll wait to make money
somewhere else, and then when you do make money somewhere else,
then you'll go back and finish the job. There is -- let me put it this
way. Can you start the job and finish it in -- in six weeks? Can you
start it, finish it, and pay for everything in six weeks? Can you make
that commitment to us right now?
MS. BORREGO: By April -- by April 10th I'll finish the job.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Can you start the job and finish it and pay
for everything in six weeks?
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February 17, 2010
MS. BORREGO: Yes. But what do you mean by starting?
Starting is ordering the cabinets.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Starting --
MS. BORREGO: I can't go and demolish her cabinets because
then she's going to be without a kitchen for six weeks.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Then I'll -- I'll -- I'll -- I'll make the -- I'll
make it a list of several smaller questions. Can you start the job in six
weeks?
MS. BORREGO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Can you finish it a week after that?
MS. BORREGO: No, because the inspections aren't going to
happen.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. How will you pay for the cabinets?
MS. BORREGO: I just told you I'm going to pay my cabinet guy
-- as soon as she pays me, I'll pay him. I'll put money out of my pocket
from other jobs that I get that I do, hopefully, make some money,
make more money than what I'm making at her house.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. What -- what you have to make the
board understand is that you are going to be relying on future profits
from other jobs to pay for this job, correct?
MS. BORREGO: That is what I'm relying on.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yes or no?
MS. BORREGO: Yes. But can I say something?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yes. So what happens when the very per
-- next person that you go to --
MS. BORREGO: Uh huh.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- gives you a deposit and then you use
that money to pay for her job? What -- where does that leave the next
client?
MS. BORREGO: Okay. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to
do that. And I'm relying that -- the Big Cypress Marketplace gave me
a letter from attorneys and courts and all that here in Collier County
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February 17, 2010
that they have -- they have $250,000 somewhere. I don't know where.
And they're going to start advertising the Marketplace so we, the
vendors, start getting people in there and we start selling kitchens.
You know, I'm relying on that, which is a letter that they just
passed in January, about four or five weeks ago. I'm relying on that.
Otherwise, I just pack up and leave.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I understand. Thank you.
MR. WHITE: And -- and -- and the point, Mr. Chairman, of
someone not being paid -- the only thing that's of concern to this board
under the rules we're looking at is whether they are harmed. If -- if she
doesn't make any money or some other vendor or contractor doesn't
get paid, that's immaterial and irrelevant to me.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: It's not immaterial because --
MR. WHITE: To me.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- the cabinet -- the countertop company
could -- could do a notice to owner and file a lien on their home if
they don't get paid.
MR. JERULLE: I believe the testimony was she does not have
the money today to order the cabinets.
MR. WHITE: But she has --
MR. JERULLE: And I think that's relevant.
Michael, her -- her license is suspended right now?
MR. OSSORIO: That is correct.
MR. JERULLE: And to get off of suspension, does she have to
show a credit report?
MR. OSSORIO: Credit report, her and her business, full
application.
MR. JERULLE: And her -- and she's admitted that she's gone
bankrupt, so she's -- her credit report's not going to look so good.
MS. BORREGO: The bankruptcy's one of those bankruptcies
where I pay monthly payments, so yes. Chapter 13 or something.
MR. NEALE: Chapter 13, can't consider it.
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February 17,2010
MR. OSSORIO: Which is fine. I mean, the only thing the county
wants Mary's Kitchen to do is to get her license back because -- Mr.
Lantz makes it pretty clear -- I mean, excuse me -- he makes it pretty
clear (sic) that -- that -- that he can go ahead and -- the contract, yeah,
it's three months overdue. Yeah, they can go out there and do it. He
can't. The county's going to issue a stop work order for not having a
valid license. We need to get it back as a licensed company so she can
manage her company so there's not mismanagement.
MR. JOSLIN: Now, hold on a second.
MS. BORREGO: So you can -- so you can get paid, so you could
collect your fees.
MR. JOSLIN: Hold on one minute.
MS. BORREGO: Don't tell me I mismanaged my business. You
want to collect your money, period.
MR. JOSLIN: Easy, easy, easy, easy.
MS. BORREGO: Come on.
MR. JOSLIN: Isn't -- isn't there another permit holder that's a
licensed contractor involved in this also that pulled the permit?
MS. LACZI: Yes. Yes.
MR. NEALE: The permit was pulled by another licensed
contractor.
MR. JOSLIN: Can't he -- if she orders the cabinets and pays for
them however she wants to, can't that licensed contractor who pulled
the permit and is still active and -- can't he go do the job?
MR. LANTZ: So that --
MR. JOSLIN: And won't he go do the job?
MS. BORREGO: Yes, but they -- they want -- Ian wants me to
return the money to her and she does the contract with Ash Ann
homes?
MS. LACZI: No.
MR. JERULLE: The question is, why -- why wasn't that done
already?
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February 17, 2010
MR. JOSLIN: Yeah.
MR. JERULLE: She could have -- she could have done that
already.
MR. JOSLIN: Yes.
MR. WHITE: But today's the first time anybody -- that the
property owners said that they were willing to take the cabinets.
MR. JOSLIN: Right. Up until then, they wanted their money
back.
MR. WHITE: The circumstances seem to have changed.
MR. JERULLE: Let's -- but still the cabinets haven't been
ordered.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay. Another question--
MR. JERULLE: Going back to Tom's--
MR. JOSLIN: Hold on. One -- one last question. Are you willing
to accept the fact of her coming in to finish your kitchen? I mean, 30
days, obviously, by the -- or six-week order period not going to
happen, so the -- April 10th was what you said?
MS. BORREGO: Uh huh.
MR. JOSLIN: Is April 10th -- by April 10th, would that take you
over the edge and make you whole and have a kitchen that's finished
and done and completed?
MS. LACZI: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: It will.
MS. LACZI: But if -- if I have -- if I have assurance that she will
finish the job by that -- April 15th or 10th, whatever she said. She
doesn't have to install the -- the cabinets because she cannot. Ariel
Gonzales will install, which is the other contractor --
MR. JOSLIN: Correct.
MS. LACZI: -- that pulled the permit.
MR. JOSLIN: Yes.
MS. LACZI: So he will have to install the cabinets.
MR. JOSLIN: Correct.
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February 17, 2010
MS. LACZI: So it's not -- it's not Ariel. It's her, that -- that she
didn't order the cabinets.
MR. JOSLIN: Correct. Okay. So the cabinets get ordered, and
Ariel comes and puts them in, and you're content with that? You're --
you're satisfied with that -- that avenue for the moment?
MS. LACZI: If she starts the job and she finishes by April the
10th.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: Just so -- so you realize, there is no contract --
there's a -- there's an issue here with a building permit. These
homeowners have no direct contact with the building permit itself.
That's something that we're going to be dealing with.
So the notion is that there's another contractor involved. Yes,
there was a contractor that was in contract with Mary's Kitchen but
never in contract with these homeowners. But the homeowners are
willing to say, okay, if that's the case -- and we've talked about this --
is the homeowners will have this contractor with the building permit
put them in. Mary's Kitchen has just to go ahead and get the cabinets
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: And -- and the counter tops --
MR. OSSORIO: -- and renew their license.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: -- and the appliances.
MS. LACZI: And the counter tops.
MS. BORREGO: We have to do everything. Ariel, all -- all that
he does is pull the permits and oversees the whole thing, makes sure
that everything is -- gets done the right way. Ariel is not an installer;
he's a general contractor.
MS. LACZI: I -- I don't know who installs the -- it's -- it's up to
you. Just --
MS. BORREGO: I have my installer license, and I have licensed
installers that we can get the job done.
MS. LACZI: Just get the kitchen done.
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February 17,2010
MS. BORREGO: But you know Ariel. You and -- Ariel and him
(sic) were very close, you know. We never went in there and wanted
to take your money and run away. That's not the whole point.
MS. LACZI: Four months. Four months.
MS. BORREGO: Home Depot and Lowe's can take six months.
MS. LACZI: Four months.
MS. BORREGO: And there's the biggest companies out there--
MS. LACZI: You promised me five days, Mary.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Okay. We're still in deliberation.
We still have -- my sense is the board is considering some kind of a
30-day stay in a decision with the hopes that outside of this room there
would be some resolution that comes between the parties, or we're
going to decide on guilt and then move to a penalty phase of our
deliberation.
MR. JERULLE: I'm not -- I'm not one of those board members.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I understand.
MR. JERULLE: The cabinets have to be ordered, and the cabinet
company needs the money. There is -- nobody's going to order the
cabinets, so -- that's my opinion.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: What I don't want to do is sit here any
longer and -- and discuss all of the different options. And all we -- we
have to take some action here. So if the pleasure of the board is to
delay a decision for 30 days and ask the parties to come to some
resolution with the support of the staff, then I need a motion, and we
can vote on it.
If the pleasure of the board is to find guilt and then move forward
to a penalty deliberation, then I need a motion with regard to that. But
I don't know that we're going to get -- gain any more from discussing
the same issues over and over again.
Both parties have been willing to answer any questions. If there
are no more questions of the two parties here, then we need to take
some kind of action one way or other.
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February 17, 2010
MR. WHITE: Thank -- thank you for helping to draw us to a
close, Mr. Chairman. I think we all appreciate that. And in the same
vein, I'm going to make a motion that we continue this case for 30
days and have a report on the status by the staff, and, if appropriate,
we would bring this matter back thereafter to make a determination of
finding on the charge, the point being that within 30 days we'll know
whether those cabinets were ordered and whether there is going to be
the possibility of making the April date. If it does not happen, we will
be back here in April, and we will wrap this matter up.
MR. JOSLIN: I second the motion.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I have a motion and a second. Any
further discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in favor?
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. WHITE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those opposed?
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
COURT REPORTER: Who was the other one?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye. How many oppose?
MR. JOSLIN: 4-3? 5-3? 4-3?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So the motion passes at a vote of 4 to 3.
MR. WHITE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: So how do I conclude this, Mr. Neale?
This is not -- this isn't in my notes of how to conclude this.
MR. NEALE: This -- this one didn't -- didn't make it to the notes.
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February 17, 2010
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: It didn't, no.
MR. NEALE: I've been doing this for 15 years, and I think I've
only seen this twice, so --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yeah, I know.
MR. NEALE: What happens now is the -- the respondent should
be very clear that she has 30 days to comply in such a way that when
the board convenes again next month that at least -- at the very least,
from my reading of the board, the cabinets are ordered and that she
has come up with a way to complete this job and pay -- and in a way
that is satisfactory to the -- to the homeowner.
She has to provide evidence to that matter by next month, and
then at that point in time the board will determine what action to take
based upon her actions for the next 30 days. I think to some extent the
board has left the responsibility on the respondent's shoulders.
MR. JOSLIN: And, also, the -- the time span of her actions
within the next 30 days are very critical because if you wait until the
30th of next month or the 20 -- or the -- say, the 15th of next month
and we convene on the 16th of next month, I don't think this board is
going to go along with it because you've waited that long to order the
cabinets. It's going to take too long for the completion date.
MS. BORREGO: Uh huh.
MR. JOSLIN: So the sooner that you order these cabinets is
going to come back before us the next time and say, okay, you've
given the effort, and now it's a matter of them being here. All you can
do at this moment to prove that this is going to happen you -- I suggest
you do; otherwise, the next time I can tell you what's going to happen.
MR. JERULLE: Well-- well--
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Terry.
MR. JERULLE: All they have to do -- all she has to do is order
the cabinets?
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Well, what I was going to say was I think
we should clarify what our expectations are for next month so we
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February 17, 2010
don't have a one hour discussion on whether or not her progress is
acceptable or not.
MR. JOSLIN: True.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: We need to set some standards for what
our expectations are for Ms. Borrego for next month.
MR. JOSLIN: Although we can't force her to do this. I mean,
there's no way our actions could force her.
MR. NEALE: I would -- I would --
MR. JOSLIN: But we can make recommendations to her.
MR. NEALE: I would suggest that it would be more appropriate,
frankly, for the -- for the board to leave the responsibility in the lap of
the respondent.
MR. WHITE: And as the motion that was approved states--
MR. NEALE: The motion was very clear.
MR. WHITE: Yes. -- staff comes back with what the status is in
our next meeting.
MR. NEALE: And the board then gets to consider it, because I
think I -- I would suggest to the board that it -- it is -- it is much more
appropriate to have the evidence put on at the next hearing as to what
has been accomplished for the next -- in the last 30 days than to
prejudge a certain outcome that may be determined by factors beyond
the respondent's control.
So I would suggest that having her come back next month with a
report that is vetted by staff and have staff and respondent reports at
that time would be a better -- would be a better way of making the
decision than to try and layout very specific parameters at this point.
MR. JOSLIN: Fine.
MR. NEALE: I mean, yes, it's difficult to hit a target when you
don't know what the target is, but I think the -- the respondent should
have a good sense after the discussion as to what this board is -- what
this board is leaning towards.
MR. JOSLIN: Right, I would think.
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February 17,2010
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Mr. White, do you concur with that?
MR. WHITE: I believe that was the sense of the motion that was
approved.
MR. NEALE: Okay. And since he was the movant, that's why I
asked him.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I understand.
MR. JACKSON: Mr. Chairman -- Ian here -- could I have a clear
review of the motion that was passed?
MR. NEALE: Could you do a read back on the motion?
COURT REPORTER: If I can find it.
MR. NEALE: If not, I've got some notes on it. What I -- what I
got of the motion was that she was -- they were going to continue the
matter for 30 days, and then Ms. Borrego would -- would make a
report to the staff, and both she and the staff would present that report
at the next meeting, and then the board at that point in time would
make a determination based upon the reports made by Ms. Borrego
and the staff, and the staff will then, of course, have the opportunity to
-- to -- to vet that report to make sure that the report being made by the
respondent is accurate and correct in all aspects.
MR. WHITE: What I envisioned, Mr. Chairman, was -- and Mr.
Jackson, was that part of what the report from staffs side would be
would be some further recommendation on how to proceed --
MR. JACKSON: Understood.
MR. WHITE: -- with the understanding on my part that if things
had not progressed as we hope they will and as these folks need it to,
that we would have the matter back before us in April, and we would
wrap it up.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: One -- one other final comment, possibly, is that --
is -- wouldn't it -- I think it would be in the -- in the -- in the
homeowner's behalf that Mrs. Borrego communicate with her when
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February 17,2010
the kitchen cabinets are ordered so that there's transmittance between
the two of them so that she's a little more rest assured that, yes, her
cabinets have been ordered, they're on the way, or whatever the case
may be, so that she can become abreast of what is going on with this
contract that's still pending.
MR. WHITE: Yeah, that was --
MR. JOSLIN: Is that something that can be done, Ms. Borrego?
MS. BORREGO: Yes, I can.
MR. JOSLIN: A communication link between the two?
MS. BORREGO: Yes. Yes. I want to ask her when is -- she
mentioned she was going to be traveling. When is she going to be
traveling?
MS. LACZI: At the end of the next month.
MS. BORREGO: The end of March?
MS. LACZI: Of -- of -- yes.
MR. LANTZ: I just have another question.
MS. LACZI: Or if you -- I can postpone it 'til the 15th of April,
but by that time I need the kitchen done.
MS. BORREGO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Let's let staff --let's let staff manage that
relationship.
MR. JOSLIN: Yeah, you -- you work that out between the two of
you.
MR. LANTZ: I have a --
MR. JOSLIN: But I want some communication. I want you to get
it done. That's -- that's -- we'll back off.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Kyle.
MR. LANTZ: I have a couple of questions for Michael, and then
I'll address my concern. My first question is, is she required to get her
license active to get this job completed?
MR. OSSORIO: Yes.
MR. LANTZ: Yes. Okay. So then my concern is -- my opinion is
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February 17,2010
when her license gets active, she needs to do more than just pay the
money. I feel she should be put on probation. Will we be addressing
this -- something to that effect when we readdress the case next month
or months after, or if the job is done, then she disappears from our
radar?
MR. OSSORIO: Separately, if -- if an application hits my desk
and there's some issues with it, I will forward it to you. I don't want to
get speculating too far in advance. I'm waiting for her -- her to
resubmit, so she can get her license back, so she can legitimately
contract her business properly, so she can order the cabinets, so she
can get paid by the homeowner for installing the work.
As she said, she's an installer. She wants to install these cabinets.
We require them to be licensed, so she's got to get her license back.
And we'll talk.
MR. JOSLIN: Is there -- that was my next question. Is there any
unforeseen glitches that we don't know about that's going to stop her
from getting this license back, that will stop her from being able to do
what we've just --
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Joslin, I know that Ian Jackson's been
communicating with her for -- for several weeks asking her to re -- get
the license back. If she had her license yesterday or the day before, we
wouldn't hear this case probably.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Kyle, do you have some -- another
question or another comment?
MR. LANTZ: No, my concern was addressed.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. Any other questions or comments
on this case?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All right. We'll leave it in your hands.
Thank you for your time today.
MS. BORREGO: Thank you.
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February 17,2010
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Good luck.
All right. Any other reports?
MR. OSSORIO: No.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: No.
MR. OSSORIO: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Next meeting -- this says Friday, March
12th; is that correct?
MR. OSSORIO: That is correct.
MR. JOSLIN: I just have one -- one before we close.
MS. LACZI: Thank you.
MR. JOSLIN: You're welcome.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: You're welcome.
MR. JOSLIN: I just have one last comment on the -- on the
statute, okay, as far as what a licensed contractor is responsible to
have on their vehicles. Aren't they required to have company names,
license numbers, phone numbers, I mean, ways of communication on
each and every individual vehicle that they drive, operate, or pull, or
trailer?
MR. OSSORIO: Under the code, it does say specific that -- it
does talk about lettering on vehicles and the numbering. You're
absolutely correct. Unless it is a primary vehicle, like, if it's your
personal vehicle or -- or you live in a subdivision. But the minute you
mediate yourself -- if I'm Michael Ossorio's Construction, I need to
have a license number on it.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay. My question to this is that I am seeing, I
don't know, probably at least two or three hundred pool trailers, okay,
pulling pool supplies and pulling poles and pulling brushes, and not
one name on the truck -- trailer and not one name on the truck.
Now, what is -- what is the -- what is the procedure -- what
would be the procedure for -- for -- I guess, I don't know, following
this individual or stopping this individual or finding out if he is really
a licensed company that pulls these trailers around pulling pool
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chemicals?
Now, I'm a li -- you know, pool contractor. You know, I'm -- I'm
on it. Okay. But I'm -- I'm seeing other trailers being pulled also; lawn
trailers -- I mean, you name it, it's out there -- that don't have names
on them. Are you allowed to stop a trailer or follow a trailer to a --
that's unlicensed or has no name -- nomenclature onto it--
MR. OSSORIO: We can --
MR. JOSLIN: -- and ask them about it?
MR. OSSORIO: We can surely follow them and -- and then
when they stop -- and we've done that before.
MR. JOSLIN: Uh-huh.
MR. OSSORIO: You know, if we see an unlicensed contractor,
we drive behind them or whatever it is. It does happen. I used to do it
when I was out in the field. And then when -- when he or she is doing
active contracting, we ask for a license. But surely in no -- no way or
shape or form do we pull over a vehicle and say, "Show me your
license. " We just don't do that, no.
MR. JOSLIN: Don't do that.
MR. WHITE: One -- one follow-up question, Mr. Chairman, if I
may.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Yes, sir.
MR. WHITE: Going back to one of our earlier cases, if a
magnetic sign were adhered to the door of the vehicle, not the trailer --
well, I guess the trailer, too, if that can be done, is that considered to
be adequate --
MR. NEALE: Sure.
MR. WHITE: -- for the purposes of the code?
MR. OSSORIO: I would -- I don't have it in front of me, but I
believe it just says it just has to be so many inches.
MR. NEALE: Yeah.
MR. OSSORIO: So --
MR. NEALE: I mean, you can have a magnetic sign.
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February 17, 2010
MR. OSSORIO: I think it's fine. It would be just fine.
MR. LANTZ: Is Collier County's code separate? Do they have a
different code than the state code?
MR. NEALE: No, not that I know of.
MR. OSSORIO: I know the state does --
MR. JOSLIN: They want letters and all your license numbers on
it, your -- all -- everything's got to be listed on it. But I just wanted -- I
just question this because I'm get -- I got a lot of calls over this past
weekend of pool people calling me saying, "Hey, you've got all the
unlicensed people that are working out there pulling trailers. And I --
and I just bid on three jobs and lost them all to somebody that don't
even have a license on their trailer," so that's why I --
MR. OSSORIO: And I'm not saying this to discourage you, but I
probably bet that -- that the trailers you see are licensed companies.
MR. NEALE: Uh huh.
MR. OSSORIO: You know, you'd be surprised. I'm not saying
that because -- we get those calls, and we go out there, and it turns out
that, yeah, he's a one man operation. He has a trailer, and it's a junk
trailer, and he's licensed with our office, or he's state certified. So it
does happen, and we check those out. We just don't pull them over.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: I'll give you an example why we don't. I
remember years ago there was a -- a gentleman and -- and vehicle for
hire, and it requires you to have a license for -- for taxies. Well, on the
side of somebody's vehicle, it says "Mom's taxi," and the guy thought
it was a taxi and followed this lady all around forever. And it turned
out to be a mom, and she's driving her -- her kids around, so she put
taxi -- "Mom's taxi." So it is what it is.
MR. WHITE: Was that a magnetic sign?
MR. OSSORIO: No, it was not.
MR. WHITE: No.
MR. OSSORIO: And -- and it was not me.
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February 17, 2010
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: I need a motion to adjourn, if we're done.
MR. WHITE: Just -- just one point, Mr. Chairman, and I'll draw
this -- I know we can --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Go ahead, Mr. White.
MR. WHITE: You've been very gracious in -- in allowing us to
fully deliberate these matters, and I want to thank you and my
colleagues for that.
The point about the gentleman who covered up the word "seal"
using a magnetic sign, if a magnetic sign is adequate to meet the
requirements of the code, wouldn't a magnetic sign covering up, in
fact, correct the violation?
MR. JOSLIN: I don't know about that.
MR. WHITE: So I only put it out there for--
MR. NEALE: I think it probably does.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. He was guilty. He was guilty. The
sign was wrong. He was guilty. The question is whether or not we
would waive the citation.
MR. WHITE: I'm just --
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: The question of his guilt wasn't an issue.
MR. WHITE: I'm just not going to wake up at 3 in the morning
thinking about it, I'll tell you that.
MR. LANTZ: It depends on where you are, though. In Cape
Coral, a magnetic sign is not acceptable.
MR. NEALE: Really?
MR. LANTZ: In Cape Coral, no matter what, even if it's your
personal vehicle, you have to have letters on your truck; whereas --
MR. WHITE: And we --
MR. LANTZ: -- the state laws, as I was told -- I don't know if
this is true. I never read the statute. But they were very clear when I
took one of my last continuing ed classes was -- you had to have a
company name and a point of contact.
MR. WHITE: Right.
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February 17, 2010
MR. LANTZ: And on every plane of view that you had a
company name and a point of contact, you had to have a license
number. Most people have it on their two front fenders, their license
number, but no license number on the rear of their truck, which,
according to the state laws, is in violation. But if you don't have point
of contact, then you don't need a place --
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct. If you don't mediate yourself,
you don't need a license. If you put your name on there, you've got to
have your phone number and your -- and your QB license number.
MR. WHITE: Very simply, the reason why Cape Coral has that
rule is to prevent people from using the magnetic sign and pulling it
off, because Cape Coral does have a rule about trucks for commercial
purposes --
MR. NEALE: Uh huh, right.
MR. WHITE: -- cannot be parked in a residential.
MR. NEALE: And that was it because they -- they set that -- they
had the law that you can't park a commercial truck in your yard, and
what they had was people having commercial trucks who would pull
and __ yank the magnetic sign off when they pulled in at night and put
it back on when they left in the morning.
MR. LANTZ: That was the same law that only applied to
homeowners, not renters, or something.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, something like that.
MR. LANTZ: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: Okay. I need a motion to adjourn.
MR. WHITE: So moved.
MR. BOYD: Second.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: All those in favor?
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. JERRULE: Aye.
MR. LANTZ: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
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February 17, 2010
MR. WHITE: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN L YKOS: See you next month, gentlemen. Thank
you for your time today -- and lady.
*****
There being no further business for the good of the County, the
meeting was adjourned by order of the Chairman at 1: 13 p.m.
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR
LICENSING BOARD
Thomas Lykos, CHAIRMAN
These minutes were approved by the board on
as presented or as corrected
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY
COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC., BY KAREN
BLOCKBURGER, RPR, NOTARY PUBLIC
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