BCC Minutes 12/09/1997 R REGULAR MEETING OF DECEMBER 9, 1997
OF THE THE COLLIER COUNTY BOARD OF COHMISSIONERS
in
LET IT BE REHEHBERED, that the Board of County Commissioners
and for the County of Collier, and also acting as the Board of
Zoning
Appeals and as the governing board(s) of such special districts as
have
been created according to law and having conducted business herein,
met
on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the
Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following
members
present:
CHAIRMAN:
VICE-CHAIRMAN:
Timothy L. Hancock
Barbara B. Berry
Pamela S. Hac'Kie
John C. Norris
Timothy J. Constantine
ALSO PRESENT: Bob Fernandez, County Administrator
David C. Weigel, County Attorney
Item #3
AGENDA AND CONSENT AGENDA - APPROVED AND/OR ADOPTED WITH CHANGES
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Good morning. It's my pleasure to welcome
everyone to the December 9th meeting of the Board of County
Commissioners.
This morning it is our pleasure for the invocation to have
Reverend Harold Brown of Lely Presbyterian Church with us.
Thank you for being here. If we could ask for your
invocation,
we'll follow that with the Pledge of Allegiance. REV. BROWN: Thank you.
Our Father, we thank you for all the secular joy that we have
experienced, good shopping and lots of joys and finding presents
for
those we love.
We thank you for safe travel for those of us who are being
with
our families during this holiday season. We thank you though that
underneath all of the secular's the sacred, so we take a moment to
give thanks for this perfectly beautiful day that you've given us.
Thank you, Lord, not only for that -- this day but also for
these
public servants who try to do their best.
Bless all who are elected, all who are appointed and bless us
as
a body in Collier County to see underneath all of the secular a
sacred
theme of your love for us and our opportunity to use our heads and
our
the
hearts because of your divine guidance for good for all.
Thank you for that Christmas blessing. Amen.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Amen.
(The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Reverend Brown, we appreciate you taking
time to be with us this morning. Thank you very much.
I'd like to also thank our staff. For the first time in a
long
time we have holiday decorations in the board room.
Miss Filson, to you and everyone, thank you very much.
Good morning, Mr. Fernandez.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Good morning.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: As I was gathering myself, it looks like we
have a couple of add-ons this morning.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Yes, sir, we do.
First is add Item 8(E)(1), which is a request for the board to
adopt the resolution opposing House Bill 3185 relating to certain
rate-making provisions and investor-owned water and wastewater
utility
systems before the 1998 regular session of the legislature.
And also, we'd like to add Item 10(B), which is the discussion
for a joint Lee-Collier meeting with the Army Corps of Engineers,
on
December the 17th to discuss the proposed study.
was
by
the
Commissioner Hancock asked for that one.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Are we no longer following the rule
where every time we add an item we have to subtract one?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, you know, you didn't like the one I
going to subtract so -- I was going to subtract one of your items
adding mine but I didn't think that would work.
Mr. Weigel, do you have anything?
MR. WEIGEL: No, thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Hac'Kie, any changes to the
agenda?
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: No, thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Norris?
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: No additions.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Berry?
COMMISSIONER BERRY: I don't think so.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Constantine?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: No changes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Likewise, none for me.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman --
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I want to make a motion that we accept
agenda and consent agenda as --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'll second --
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: -- amended.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- to his motion.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion and second. All those in favor,
signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion carries five-zero.
Item #5B
EHPLOYEE SERVICE AWARDS - PRESENTED
We are to the service awards section of this is Item 5(B) on
our agenda.
Commissioner Hac'Kie.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Yes. We've got two biggies today. I
thrilled to get to thank these people for their service to Collier
County.
First is Helen Ortega, if she's here. Would you come forward?
For 15 years of service to Collier County.
(Applause.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Congratulations, Helen.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Thank you.
MS. ORTEGA: Thank you.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Oh, don't forget the pin. Yeah.
Thanks.
There is actually one more today but she couldn't be with us.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
Item #5C1
THE COLLIER COUNTY HUSEUH'S PROGRAM OF EVENTS FOR 1998 IN HONOR OF
COLLIER COUNTY'S 75TH ANNIVERSARY - PRESENTED
in
We're to Item 5(C)(1) on the agenda. This is a presentation
to announce the Collier County Huseum's program of events for 1998
honor of the Collier County's -- Collier County's 75th anniversary
celebration.
Good morning, Mr. Jamro.
MR. JAMRO: Good morning, commissioners. Ron Jamro, your
museum
director.
I do appreciate a moment of your time this morning and the
opportunity to tell you what the museum has planned for next year
to
mark the 75th anniversary for Collier County.
In a sense we've already started the celebration with our Old
Florida Festival this past November. This year's event drew over
5,000 visitors and showcased over five centuries of South Florida
history with the help of historical re-enactors, craft workers and
folk historians from all over the state.
Beginning in January, the museum will providing -- will be
providing a daily Today in Collier County History piece for
publication in the Naples Daily News as well as a special
exhibition
from the Henry B. Plant Museum in Tampa on Florida's role in the
Spanish-American War, which also observes its centennial in 1998.
It's a busy year.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'm sorry. You said there was the H. B.
Plant
Museum?
MR. JAMRO: H. B. Plant Museum, yeah.
use
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. That was our dose in there, yeah.
MR. JAMRO: Yeah. Some affiliation of that.
Again, in partnership with the Naples Daily News, we will be
publishing the first ever children's history of Collier County for
by our local second through fourth graders.
Then in February we'll be focusing on the heritage and the
culture of black Americans in Florida with our fifth annual Black
Cultural Arts Festival. It's held on the museum grounds.
March takes us even further back in time to investigate
Collier
County's earliest residents during Florida Archeology Month. It
will
-- presenting lectures, films and an archeology fair devoted to the
culture of the Caloosa Indians and their ancestors.
In March 2, we'll be exploring folk life in our community with
a
and
special workshop from the Florida Division of Historical Resources
the Florida Humanities Council. This free hands-on program is
specially designed to teach people how to preserve their own family
histories and photographs.
Then on April 26th, we invite all of you to be our honored
guests
at the dedication of Collier County's newest historical museum, the
Museum of the Everglades and Everglades City.
The opening crowns almost a decade of hard work and
cooperation
between this board, the friends of the museum in Everglades City
and
the State of Florida to rescue, restore and reuse one of our
county's
oldest structures. And that also coincides with the 70th
anniversary
of the opening of the Tamiami Trail.
For me, we're planning a very special presentation to the
board,
which will include an exact replica drawn from the Florida
Department
of State Archives of Senate Bill Number 149 that officially created
Collier County on May 8th, 1923. It was signed by then Governor
Cary
A. Hardy.
Finally, we'll end the celebration in November with our tenth
annual Old Florida Festival and a two-day salute to Collier
County's
75 five years as Florida's 62nd county.
We begin, however, next Monday on a more festive note with a
special holiday exhibition of Beanie Babies, the level of bean bag
animals that have become a national obsession and the hottest toy
collectible in toy history.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And it played a critical role in the
history
and development of Collier County.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Absolutely.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Right in there.
MR. JAMRO: Show me the Beanies, it's coming. It will be the
first -- first public exhibition of every Beanie Baby ever
produced.
And it is designed to introduce younger visitors to the museum and
to
encourage them to visit often with their parents and friends on
more
serious trips.
At first blush, Beanie Babies in Collier County history would
appear to have little or nothing in common. I agree, until you
consider that one of the most coveted and eagerly sought after
beanies
today also happens to be our official county seal, the turkey,
which
is adopted by the first board of county commissioners on July 9th,
1923.
And, so, to mark the beginning of both occasions, the friends
of
the Collier County Museum would like to present each of you with a
small memento this morning served today by our friends and generous
co-sponsors of the exhibition from the Registry Resort, Mr. Louis
Fartell.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I was wondering why there was somebody with
tuxedo in the audience.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Oh, my very own?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: They should have brought some for
everybody.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Thank you, Miss Mosier. Thank you
very much.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Do I have to share this with my
granddaughter, I wonder?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Oh, my goodness gracious.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: This is pretty cute.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I saw you in the elevator.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Now they're going to say we're all a
bunch
you
of turkeys.
COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: That's been said before, Barbara.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: It's official now.
MR. JAMRO: So, we're now on your way.
1998 also marks one final milestone. It is the Collier County
Huseum's 20th year of public service to our community. We thank
for making that possible and for your generous and continued
support.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Ron, I'm not going to let you get away so
quick. First of all, to the Registry Resort and to you, thank you.
But to the -- I think those of you in the community that have
not
stepped foot inside the museum, you're doing yourself a tremendous
disservice. The hard work of Ron, his staff and some volunteers
have
turned what was basically a -- a trailer with some exhibits into
what
I think is one of the finer museums on history and -- and
everything
from archeology through, I mean, Beanie Babies. They cover it all.
But you do a wonderful job. Ron is actually a co-author of a
book that's for sale in the museum that covers Collier County
History
that's very good. So, please, you know, you support it yourself
individually through the community, please visit it. We happen to
be
you
very proud of it.
Ron, to you and your staff --
MR. JAMRO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- thank you, and to the Registry, thank
very much.
(Applause.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK:
within hours.
My daughter will have drool on that turkey
Item #5C2
EDWARD TORRONI, ASSISTANT TO THE ATHLETIC SUPERVISOR, PARKS AND
RECREATION DEPARTMENT, PUBLIC SERVICES DIVISION, EMPLOYEE OF THE
YEAR
FOR 1997 - PRESENTED
one
Our next one is one that as chairman is in the top five of --
of things you enjoy during -- doing during the year and that is to
recognize the employee of the year.
This year -- I have an opportunity when I go out and speak to
obviously answer questions and dodge bullets on tough items, but
item that's always a pleasure to deal with is our Parks and
Recreation
Department. The services that our Parks and Rec people provide
through not just the facilities but their hands-on service to
community is something that I think every board member probably has
no
concerns over and is done with the highest level of
professionalism.
And with that, I'd like to ask Mr. Edward Tottoni, assistant
to
the athletic supervisor, to come forward and we're recognizing Ed
today as employee of the year for 1997.
The remarks that were condensed into a single paragraph
regarding
Ed's performance this year are as follows: This year our employee
of
the year is truly a remarkable person. Ed has been with Collier
County Government for 21 years, starting when he was four, and is
being recognized today for his involvement in county sponsored
children and adult recreational sports programs.
And I know that because my first meeting for a softball team,
Ed
was running it about seven years ago. Ed schedules the annual
weekend
tournaments sponsored by Champion Sports Productions, Naples Sports
Festival, benefiting the North Naples Little League, the annual
USTA
Junior Tennis Tournament and the Marco Island Sports Festival. He
organizes and schedules the course throughout the county for the
Collier County Women's Tennis Association and this year he
organized a
Naples Daily News Junior Golf Tournament, hosting over 200
participants.
Ed oversees various youth sports such as flag football,
cheerleading and basketball, coed and men's softball teams and a
senior games program.
Because of his dedication to keeping the citizens of Collier
County, young and old alike, fit and active, Ed is being recognized
for this special award.
As employee of the year, Ed, you get a few things. I'll start
off with the least important and that's a letter signed by me
recognizing you as employee of the year. And I'll present that to
you.
In addition, you're recognized with an employee of the year
plaque that can be hung in your office or you may just want to
carry
it with you since you're never in your office.
Also a $250 cash award. Our thanks and congratulations. And,
Ed, we certainly appreciate it.
(Applause.)
MR. TORRONI: I don't get this opportunity too often to speak
in
front of you. Obviously it's been almost 22 years and I think I
was
only up here once, but I would like to obviously make -- not make
this
sound like an academy award, you know, presentation by any means,
but
there's a few people obviously that I would like to thank and
that's
-- that's the EAC obviously who provides a platform for -- for its
employees to show off some of the things that they've done, and I
appreciate obviously them selecting, you know, me as their
employee.
I'd also like to probably pay tribute to the people who are
mostly responsible for this and it's probably our entire
department.
I've been here, like you said, 22 years and we have celebrated our
25th anniversary last year, and we're all pretty proud of the
accomplishments obviously.
I think, Mr. Hancock, you've talked about the museum, but you
also said some nice things about the Parks and Rec Department.
And to sum it up, I think it's absolutely true. We've gone a
long way. We've done a lot of things for our community and I
believe
it's close to seven or eight million people that visit our parks,
our
to
beaches, et cetera, are real happy that you and your -- your
commission and your predecessors have thought very kind of us to --
support the growth of our parks and system.
bit
and
And I hope we serve you well as well. But, people in our
department, everyone in our department, probably deserves a little
of this but they're not going to get any of it.
Everyone -- just about everyone, starting from our director
administrators all the way to our hundreds of volunteers that
participate in our parks every year probably have a hand in it.
And,
like I said, I wish everyone could probably come up here and take
part
in this, but I'm going to publicly thank everyone in our department
for -- for their help in -- in making sure that this came true.
Again, thank you people up here for -- for the support over
the
years, and I hope I'll be here for, I think, seven more years, I
think, on this retirement time. Thank you, guys. Appreciate it.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Ed, congratulations.
MR. TORRONI: And happy holidays to you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you to you, too.
(Applause.)
Item #8A2
RESOLUTION 97-452, AUTHORIZING A NEW AGREEHENT FOR AFFORDABLE
HOUSING
DENSITY BONUS AND IMPOSING COVENANTS AND RESTRICTIONS ON REAL
PROPERTY
- ADOPTED AS AMENDED
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Our next item on the agenda this morning
Item 8(A)(1) under Community Development and Environmental
Services,
status of BCC action pursuant to sunsetting provisions of the
Collier
County Land Development Code relative to Saddlebrook Village PUD.
Mr. Mihalic --
MR. MIHALIC: Good morning --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- good morning.
MR. MIHALIC: -- commissioners. For the record, I'm Greg
Mihalic, director of housing and urban improvement as well as the
affordable housing director for the county.
8(A)(1) and 8(A)(2) are companion items, commissioner, and I
think it's better to deal with Item 8(A)(2) first because that is
certainly related to whether -- what issues you will discuss with
the
sunsetting of this --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Any objection by the board?
MR. MIHALIC: -- PUD.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Seeing none, let's proceed with 8(A)(2
then.
MR. MIHALIC: And good morning, commissioners. Saddlebrook
Village PUD is the affordable housing Planned Unit Development of
438
units. That was originally approved on June 25th, 1991.
On January 21st, 1997, the Board of County Commissioners
for
considered extending the PUD because it came up for the sunsetting
provisions of the Planned Unit Developments.
And at that time the commission considered it but they asked
a new affordable housing agreement because affordable housing has
dramatically changed since 1991.
In 1991 this developer was going to put 30 percent of the
units
as affordable housing. He was going to service moderate income
people
at 80 percent of median income. So, families could really make
$45,000 a year and live in affordable apartments.
That's not affordable housing anymore. We don't service
people
that make 80 percent of median income. We service families that
make
50 and 60 percent of median income.
And, so, we went back and the developer has redfawn the
agreement
to meet our current minimum standards, and those are at lease 20
percent of all the units in the development have to be for very
low-income units; that is, those that are at 50 percent of median
income and the affordable units must cover the density bonus
agreement.
And in this particular case at the time, there were seven
units
of base density and a density bonus of six units an acre for a
total
of 13 units per acre.
This developer is now proposing to set aside 46 percent of all
the units as affordable housing to cover that density bonus
agreement.
So, he is covering all the density bonus units with either very low
or
the
low income units.
In -- in the documents that we gave you, they were really in
name of the contract purchaser of this property and not in the
owner's
name.
Since we've given you the documents, the owner has agreed that
the owner will also sign on to these agreements and we will to redo
the Affordable Housing Density Bonus Agreement if you'll approve it
to
75
reflect the owners of this land trust, which is 1-70 -- Exit 15, I-
land trusts, Jim Colosimo, trustee.
And because of that, we now have a list of all the beneficial
owners. And there are about 55 beneficial owners of this property.
I'd like to hand that out to you now.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I look at these just for kicks but --
MR. MIHALIC: You can see it's a fairly long list of
beneficial
owners to this property.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE:
might
have invested in.
You never know what your mom and dad
to
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Oh, yes, I do.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay.
MR. MIHALIC: So, the density bonus agreement will have to be
altered for the documents you receive to strike the provision of
phasing Section 17, which says that the provision will not be
applicable if the buyer does not close on this property.
That will be struck, as well as adding the name of the trustee
this, the owner-trustee. So, this will be -- this agreement will
flow
to the land, whether it sells or doesn't sell, as a new affordable
housing density agreement to run with the land.
And you're agreeing to this to allow the owner an extension to
build this until October 30th, 1998, and that's really the -- what
you're going to allow if you allow the sunsetting provision to be
extended, and which would be obviously 8(A)(1).
If I can answer any questions?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Constantine.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I just have a real general problem
with this as we talk about whether or not we're going to extend
this.
We're talking with our staff and have -- have ranked as one of our
top
and
priorities is the density issues and trying to limit population
SO on.
I understand we're trying to encourage affordable housing and
that's the purpose behind the density bonus, but an absolute
minimum,
you know, a 46 percent is affordable under the definition. Only
one
in five of these units is actually very low.
It -- it seems completely contrary to the discussions we've
been
having trying to limit the number of people and trying to limit the
number of densities in the urban area.
And, as I look at the sunset amendment, I'm -- I'm not sure we
need to extend this again. I think there was a -- we've gone well
beyond the five-year time frame and they didn't meet the
requirements.
And -- and, Greg, as you pointed out, things have changed an awful
lot. I think it was '93 when we changed so that we didn't deal
with
80 percent anymore. And --
MR. MIHALIC: That's right.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: You know, it's almost five years
since
we changed the law, let alone whether this particular PUD met it.
So,
I don't -- I just -- I don't -- I'm not comfortable with something
like this at 13 units an acre when it -- 80 percent of it really is
not doing what we're trying to accomplish.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Norris?
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. Mihalic, you -- you mentioned that -
that there was a section that was struck --
MR. MIHALIC: Yes.
of
if
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: -- concerning ownership and --
MR. MIHALIC: Yes, commissioner.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: -- and you think the agreement would
terminate. Where is that?
MR. MIHALIC: On stamped Page 13 of your pages. At the bottom
that page, the last sentence that runs onto the next page, it says,
developer fails to close on one or both portions of this property,
this agreement shall be deemed void and of force or effect to such
portions not owned by the developer. That will be struck.
Again, we're going to add the -- excuse me, commissioner. I'm
sorry.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I have some concern about striking that.
That was one of the points that was negotiated and when did we
decide
to strike that?
MR. MIHALIC: Well, in front of the Plan Commission, the --
the
was
to,
Planning Commission -- that we met with the Planning Commission on
this and they recommended it forward by a unanimous vote, but that
one of the provisions that the attorney for the developer agreed
so that this affordable housing agreements replaces the original
agreement that was appreved in 1991.
So, the owner would now be added to this agreement and that
section would be struck.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Further questions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Mihalic, as I understand it, the way
it's
broken down now out of the 13 units per acre, there are, in
essence,
seven at market, six at affordable?
MR. MIHALIC: That's correct, commissioner.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And the market rate units on seven, by
achieving seven are -- are realizing proximity to an activity
center
in order to get to seven or --
MR. HIHALIC: I can't speak to how that original base density
was
arrived at or whether it would be arrived at the same base density
today. I'd like Mr. Nine to comment on that.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: And out of the six that are
affordable, only really 1.2 of those are very low.
MR. MIHALIC: That's true, commissioner, but that -- that,
really, we require 20 percent of all new affordable housing
developments, 20 percent of all the units to be very low income.
That
is generally what most developers will agree to. If they don't put
more of that in, then a very low income units in than they have to.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Nine?
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Excuse me. I --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I don't think -- I don't think that was
be
correct, what you said. Say that again. The six units, 1.2, will
very low? I don't think that's right.
MR. MIHALIC: Out of -- out of the six bonus density units, 20
percent of those affordable units and 20 percent of the rest of the
development will be a very low income. So, of the whole
development
will be affordable, so Commissioner Norris is really correct that
it
would be more than one point --
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: It would be 2.6 out of your 13.
MR. MIHALIC: Twenty percent of the total which would be
double
that of the affordable units, yes.
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Twenty forty-six --
MR. MIHALIC: It would be approximately --
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: -- whatever that works out to be.
MR. MIHALIC: Approximately 38 percent of all the units will
be
low
-- of all the units in -- of all the affordable units will be very
income, commissioner. It would be twice -- COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Yeah.
MR. MIHALIC: Yeah. Twenty percent times four --
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Got it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Nine?
Just one question regarding how we arrive at --
MR. NINO: For the record, Ren Nine.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- a seven base density plus six affordable
based --
MR. NINO: Based --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- density based on proximity to activity
center?
MR. NINO: The base density is four and an additional three
units
are authorized as a bonus for being within one mile of an activity
center.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. So, if it were not affordable, they
could request up to seven units per acre for the site currently.
MR. NINO: That is correct.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: But they're getting 13.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thirteen because the up -- the proximity to
activity center bonus doesn't have any tie to affordable? The
difference between seven and 13, those are all affordable.
So, they've -- they've used two bonuses to get to 13 units an
acre, which is allowed by the comp plan but it's an up-to number,
not
not
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: It's not a requirement.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: At some point we'll need some legal
advice. I'm looking for Mr. Weigel or somebody about whether or
this is a little different from the usual -- I see Marjorie --
because
of the agreement. If that -- because of the separate agreement
with
the developer, if that created a separate property right in
addition
to the -- the PUD with the sunset, that's something I'm going to
want
to know about anyway.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That's also something else to consider and
I
think that they've -- they've received tax exempt bonds from the
Housing Finance Authority in the past for Phase 1. And that was
done
on a basis of Phase 2 was part of that application initially, so
there
are some things that we just need to know how -- what -- what
weight
to -- they should be given in any consideration for alterations.
HR. NINO: Let me speak to that issue, commissioners.
The Collier County Housing Finance Authority a few years ago
issued allocation for $4.9 million in tax exempt revenue bonds for
this parcel. They will expire at the end of the year unless this
property moves forward.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Do you want your question answered
by
in
the
Hiss Student?
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: I would, thank you.
HS. STUDENT: It's -- I haven't had to deal with this issue
before and I get involved in a land use side and another attorney
the office deals with the -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay.
MS. STUDENT: -- agreement side.
But in an abundance of caution, and it's hard to predict with
property rights legislation, you know, how that could all play out
and, in an abundance of caution, at the very least, I'll say
someone
might be able to successfully make that argument. But I know of no
case law or anything, you know, that would address that.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Because we're dealing with that new --
relatively new statute, we don't know yet if it would apply.
HS. STUDENT: Absolutely. And there -- there are no reported
cases. It would take a few years to have a case reported under
that,
and from our monitoring of it, a lot of them have gone through
local
processes permitted by statute to work it out and, indeed, have
been
worked out, so there hasn't been any need to get to the District
Court
of Appeal.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Miss Student, did we get your name on the
record?
MS. STUDENT: I beg your pardon. Marjorie Student, Assistant
County Attorney, for the record.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you.
HS. STUDENT: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Mihalic.
MR. MIHALIC: Well, commissioners, speaking of the Affordable
Housing Density Bonus Agreement, as I mentioned, affordable housing
has changed dramatically since 1991, and I say it will change
dramatically over the next five years.
It's important when a developer does not build within whatever
time period he's allowed to relook at these agreements and
renegotiate
them so that they meet current standards in my opinion.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Are there further questions of staff? If
not,
let's go to the petitioner.
Mr. Anderson.
MR. ANDERSON: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, commissioners.
For the record, my name is Bruce Anderson. I'm here on behalf
of
the trustee-owner of this PUD who has a contract with Colonial
Equities, Inc. to purchase this PUD property and develop it.
Colonial Equities is listed in the new affordable housing
agreement as the applicant because they will be the actual
developer
of Phase 1 of this project, which consists of 140 affordable units.
As Mr. Mihalic mentioned, my client has also agreed to sign
the
new agreement as the current owner of the property that was at the
request of Mr. Mihalic.
I would also like to note for the record that an additional
signatory to this contract would be Outreach Housing Corporation,
which would be -- they're related to Colonial Equities and they
would
be the developer of Phase 2 of this project.
I can tell you from recent experience on a -- on a similar
affordable housing PUD, that it has become increasingly more
difficult
for Collier County projects to secure the state funding that is a
critical component of getting these developments built.
Now, we all down here in Collier County pay more than our fair
share of state and federal taxes. And if we have a commitment, as
we
do here, for a $4.9 million project to help address what is both a
community need and a state Growth Management Act requirement like
affordable housing, we should take the money.
I would like to emphasize that this trustee owner of the
property
does have a history of cooperating with Collier County on other
lands
that he owns within Collier County. We offer cooperation and seek
like kind response.
Now, although I was not involved in the representation at this
time -- at the time, back in January, the board directed as part of
the PUD sunset review that a new agreement, affordable housing
agreement, be negotiated with Mr. Mihalic and brought back for your
approval.
That agreement is what you have before you today and it does
give
Mr. Mihalic everything that he asked for.
Now, this new agreement does not change the density or any
part
of the previously approved PUD, but it does do two very important
things.
Number one, it increases the total number of affordable units
from 132 out of 438 units to 202 units or 46 percent of the entire
project, which equates exactly to the density bonus that was
awarded
to this property for provision of affordable housing.
Secondly, it also increases from zero to 88 the number of
units
to be reserved for very low-income families.
As I explained earlier, Phase 1 will be 100 percent affordable
and Phase 2 will be a mixture of affordable and market rate units
for
a
you
the remainder of the PUD and, also, Phase 2 will be the subject of
PUD amendment that will come before you next year to request
authorization for one-bedroom units in Phase 2.
Now, in addition to the new affordable housing agreement that
requested, the trustee-owner of this PUD property would offer the
following stipulations for a PUD sunset extension resolution.
Number
one, Phase 1 and Phase 2 shall be constructed in compliance with
all
existing land development code requirements.
Number two, Phase 1 shall be developed for 100 percent
affordable
units as provided in the new Affordable Housing Density Bonus
Agreement.
Phase 2 shall also be developed as provided in the new
agreement.
Third, prior to the expiration of the extension period, a PUD
amendment shall be filed with Collier County to formally
incorporate
into the PUD document current land development code standards.
Fourth, we're willing to commit and attach as exhibits to the
sunset resolution architectural elevations for Phase 1, which I'd
like
to distribute.
I would also like to distribute and enter into the record the
planning staff's executive summary on Saddlebrook PUD that was
issued
in January.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I'm sorry. What was that, Bruce,
you're
entering?
MR. ANDERSON: It is a copy of the original staff report,
executive summary, on the Saddlebrook PUD that came before you --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I see?
MR. ANDERSON: -- in January.
That staff report sets forth a summary of the various local,
state and federal permits that were either secured or being pursued
at
that time. I would note importantly that the staff review found
that
and
the development commitments in the current PUD were consistent with
current land development code requirements and the planning staff
recommended a two-year extension.
In conclusion, we offer you a new affordable housing agreement
that increases the number of affordable units and it also now
provides, for the first time, for housing for very low-income
families.
We offer stipulations for a PUD extension that assure you that
the first phase of this PUD will be 100 percent affordable units,
that assure you that this development will meet current land
development code requirements, and that these requirements will be
included in a forthcoming PUD amendment that will be required to be
submitted.
I'll be happy to answer any questions that you may have and we
would respectfully request your approval.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Anderson, it's -- the parcel is 33.7
acres?
MR. ANDERSON: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Questions for Mr. Anderson.
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: I do.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yes. Commissioner Norris.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. Anderson, can you help me with the
question I asked Mr. Mihalic about the striking of that provision
concerning cancellation of this agreement if the sale falls
through?
MR. ANDERSON: That was a provision that I had originally
inserted, really kind of at the suggestion of Mr. Mihalic, and then
later I got the staff report which indicated that now there was
Some
objection to this paragraph from the staff's perspective and they
wanted the owner to really sign on to this agreement
unconditionally.
So, it was at the request of your staff that that paragraph
was
-- was modified as it is. We were just trying to be cooperative.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Can you help me with the genesis of
this?
MR. MIHALIC: Well, commissioner, an Affordable Housing
Density
Bonus Agreement runs to the land. In my opinion, this provision
would
have not let it run to the land. It would have let it run to the
land
only if this developer bought it. And I didn't think that helped
progress the situation for where it was in 1991, commissioner.
So, I didn't -- there must have been a misunderstanding,
although
it is good to have a density bonus agreement that reflects how the
purchaser will use it, because he has to develop the parcel, so
generic affordable housing density bonus agreements are of no value
to
as
anyone, I think it's important that it runs to the land.
And then if the owner signs it, then it will run to the land
-- as the agreement that will be in place and it will repeal the
original agreement from 1991.
COHHISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. Well, Mr. Anderson, I just don't
share his enthusiasm for putting that provision on -- or taking
that
provision out.
MR. ANDERSON: I -- it's whatever the commission would prefer.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think I tend to agree with you only
because
-- I guess because one of two ways. If this were a raw project
coming
today with no history whatsoever, it is within about one or one and
a
half units per acre of what I would consider reasonable today.
I don't know that I would go all three density bonus units
because of the density ban. I understand the incentive to have
market
rate so that the more market rate you have, the more affordable you
can produce. You know, I understand the financial incentive there.
I'd probably be more comfortable at five or six market rate units
than
seven.
But as 30 or 50 units, when you look at the very low income
that's being addressed here, the fact that the first phase is 100
percent low income, which is a need, and it's a need that at least
aesthetically is -- appears to be one that -- that can be done in,
you
know, a manner consistent with community standards, I'm not sure
that's enough to -- to throw the whole thing away.
But with the inclusion of the language that was -- was
stricken
by the Planning Commission about it running with the particular
owner,
that's the only place I find a level of comfort in this project is
that his history locally is good enough that I, you know, I can
support that.
So, I -- I -- you know, I'm trying to strike a balance here.
Commissioner Constantine, I -- I agree with you in -- in
context
but I think, after looking at what the housing finance authority
has
done and is proposing to do on this project, I'd like to see this
one
move forward and then we'll make -- we'll make more individual
decisions on future projects as they come forward.
MR. HIHALIC: I need a little bit of guidance then,
commissioner.
Do you want us to flow only to the buyer of this land or do you
want
the current owner to also buy into this agreement?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I guess -- and, Commissioner Norris, maybe
who
I feel -- if this --
COHHISSIONER NORRIS: Well --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: If this deal falls through, I want to know
I'm dealing with on this project because affordable housing can go
a
on
couple of different ways. I know who I'm dealing with right now.
know who's representing them.
And that's important to me in this process because of how
affordable can really make a turn one way or the other, depending
who's doing the -- the construction and the development. So,
that's
important enough to me that I would want it to run with that. Is that consistent with your concerns or --
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: That's -- that's my concern is that if
this
-- like I say, we have a known quantity, but if this particular
deal
falls through, then this property could sit here for ten years and
who
knows what would happen at the -- you know, if somebody else could
come along and take it.
I just -- you know, I don't like to give approvals that could
end
up being for speculation.
MR. HIHALIC: Would you like -- if this deal falls through,
would
you like any agreement to then come back to the board for re-
approval?
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Yes.
MR. HIHALIC: Okay.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That's -- that's reasonable, I think.
MR. ANDERSON: That's fine.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Further questions for the petitioner?
COHMISSIONER BERRY: So, what you're saying --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Berry?
COHMISSIONER BERRY: -- is that instead of striking that,
you're
going to leave it in there.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Leave it in there.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Yeah. And I -- I would tend to agree
with
that.
I think that makes -- I think that makes more sense.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Any questions of the petitioner?
Seeing none --
MR. ANDERSON: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Anderson.
Do we have speakers on this, Mr. Fernandez?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No speakers.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'll close the public hearing.
Is there a motion on Item --
MR. MIHALIC: Commissioner, I think that the attorney has some
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Miss Ashton.
MR. MIHALIC: -- additional language that --
MS. ASHTON: If your desire is not to include the --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Name, please?
MS. ASHTON: For the record, Heidi Ashton, Assistant County
Attorney.
If your desire is not to include the current owner, then we
will
need to change the resolution that's in your package accordingly to
reflect that the new agreement will replace the old agreement as to
the property that the contract purchaser acquires, and I would
suggest
a certain date be specified, that he has a certain time period to
acquire it or not acquire it, and then the termination language
that
we put in the resolution for the original agreement will be deleted
from the resolution so that original agreement will still remain in
place.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I would assume 90 days for acquisition is
sufficient.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Now, let me -- let me be sure I
understand
this, Hiss Ashton. If we put in the language you were just
describing
in order to address the concern here about -- that a majority of
the
board wants to be sure that they're only giving this agreement to
this
buyer, if -- if -- we've got Agreement A and Agreement B.
Agreement A
is the old one. Agreement B is today's.
If Agreement B goes away because this buyer doesn't close on
the
deal within whatever time frame we set, we go back to Agreement A?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: No. I think they're being replaced. One's
being --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Now, that's '-
MS. ASHTON: Well, we need the previous owner to agree to
terminate the agreement that's currently in place, and if that
owner
does not join in this agreement, that agreement would still be in
place.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And that's the whole point, guys.
That's
where I think we're missing the boat is -- is the agreement that
they
have in front of us today, staff is telling us, and I think nobody
disagrees, that it's an improvement on Agreement A.
So, we don't want to go back to Agreement A, and we might.
MR. HIHALIC: I think we can do both, commissioners. We will
supplement -- we will substitute Agreement B for Agreement A. But
if
this -- if this property does not close with Colonial Equities,
we'll
also bring back any other agreement with any other buyer back to
you.
So, Agreement --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: You can draft it.
MR. HIHALIC: -- B will replace A, and we will bring back any
other Affordable Housing Density Bonus Agreement with any new buyer
other than Colonial Equities back to you for approval.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And -- and that's good, Greg, if the
owner
will consent because we can't unilaterally change Agreement A.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Let me re-open the public hearing for the
to
purpose of addressing -- the petitioner addressing that question.
MR. ANDERSON: Yes. We -- we agree to that. I -- I want to
mention again the other party to this agreement would be Outreach
Housing Corporation, which would be the developer of Phase 2. They
would also be a signatory to this agreement, and if you're inclined
put any kind of a time frame on when it has to close, we would
request
120 days.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's pretty reasonable.
MR. ANDERSON: It's going to be taken down in two phases.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So, the total take-down time would be
120
days?
MR. ANDERSON: Yes, ma'am.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And the -- the situation Mr. Mihalic just
outlined where Agreement B would -- would replace Agreement A and
that
any change in ownership beyond what is contemplated in the
agreement
before us would cause the agreement to come back to the board.
The parties you represent have no difficulty with that
scenario;
is that correct?
MR. ANDERSON: That is correct.
And Agreement B -- just so I'm clear, Agreement B is the one -
Nino
the
the new one; right?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yes.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Yes. It's good to clarify that.
MR. ANDERSON: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Further questions of staff or the
petitioner?
Anything, Mr. Nino?
MR. NINO: Mr. Chairman, for the record, Ron Nino.
Nevertheless, we need to wrap all of this up into a new
sunsetting resolution. Do we take it that what has been offered on
the record will be crafted into a new sunsetting resolution?
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Oh, I hope so.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, isn't that --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah. We have -- we have two separate
actions.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: That's Item 8(A)(1).
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: We're going to hear that directly --
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: They're going to have to modify it.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Right.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: That resolution, I think, is what Mr.
is pointing out to us.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: What we need at this point -- again, I'll
close the public hearing -- is a motion to either approve or deny
agreement before us.
here on the record.
reference
I need a motion on that resolution as amended
And if that is successful, we will then
that action in the discussion on 8(A)(1).
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. Well, let me see. I'll make a
motion that we approve this agreement with the -- incorporating
this
discussion that we've had here this morning relative to this new
agreement superseding the previous agreement, having it pertain
only
to the mentioned and anticipated purchasers of the property, and
that
if -- if the anticipated purchasers of the property do not follow
through for any other reason, that any subsequent affordable
housing
agreement would come back to this board.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: With 120 days to close.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: With 120 days to close.
Did I get everything?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It sounds like it.
Greg, would you -- maybe somebody ought to put the names of
those
two potential purchasers on the record.
MR. MIHALIC: Yes, commissioner. Colonial Equities,
Incorporated
is one and Outreach Housing Corporation would be the other one.
Is that the official name of the --
MR. ANDERSON: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Let the record reflect Mr. Anderson has
indicated yes.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We have a motion and a second.
Discussion on the motion?
Seeing none, all those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion carries four-one.
MR. MIHALIC: Thank you, commissioners.
Item #SA1
RESOLUTION 97-453, REGARDING SUNSETTING PROVISIONS (SECTION
2.7.3.4) OF
THE COLLIER COUNTY LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE RELATIVE TO THE
SADDLEBROOK
VILLAGE PUD (ORDINANCE NO. 91-55) AND COMPANION AFFORDABLE HOUSING
DENSITY BONUS AGREEMENT AND TO AFFIRM OR REPEAL RESOLUTION 91-55 -
ADOPTED AS AMENDED
the
by
CHAI~ HANCOCK: Item 8(A)(1), the next item is a sunsetting
provision on Saddlebrook Village PUD.
Action taken on this needs to incorporate by reference Item
8(A)(2), the agreement that was just modified and approved by the
board.
Mr. Nino, is there anything outstanding or unusual that we
haven't discussed already on this project?
MR. NINO: No. I would simply add, however -- Ron Nino for
record -- that when we replace the new resolution, it will be done
a scrivener's error, I'm advised by legal counsel.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So that we can adopt this resolution --
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Legal counsel is disagreeing.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Or coming quickly to the microphone.
MS. STUDENT: For the record again, Harjorie Student,
Assistant
County Attorney. It wasn't in the agenda packet but you have a
scrivener's error resolution that we need to do to correct what
occurred in January.
It has an additional provision about the affordable housing
agreement just for the historical purposes, then there will be a
new
resolution that will totally replace that to reflect what took
place
today.
CHAI~ HANCOCK: So, we need to include the reference
scrivener's error and the resolution approved today in any pending
approval of Item 8(A)(1)
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: And I have a question --
CHAI~ HANCOCK: Okay. Commissioner Norris.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: -- on that.
Let's -- let's say that the scenario that we -- we've
discussed
earlier concerning these -- these listed buyers falls through, then
what happens to our sunsetting resolution? Is that terminated at
that
point?
CHAI~ HANCOCK: I'll let staff answer it, but I don't think
we
our
can.
I think that --
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, we'll do it --
CHAI~ HANCOCK: Yeah.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Phrasing the question another way, does
we
PUD
sunsetting action here extend to the length of the agreement that
approved in the previous item? In other words, if this item falls
through, does that also fall through the sunsetting provision?
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: In other words, would the -- would the
have to come back for a six-month rewrite if these buyers don't
close
in 120 days.
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Right.
MR. NINO: And I assume then we'll be back -- we'll be back to
you, advising you of that action and your need to rethink the --
the
we
of
status of the PUD.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is that legal --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, I --
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: -- Miss Student?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think legally the property owner, unless
require them to come back, if that should occur, the property owner
could sit on the property, wait for a new purchaser and then try to
negotiate a new affordable housing agreement without affecting the
zoning.
MR. NINO: I would --
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: I sure would hope so. I mean, that's -
surely they have to have a zoning category of some kind. It can't
just be unzoned property as in 120 days if these guys don't close.
MR. NINO: Your action -- your action approving the Affordable
Housing Density Bonus Agreement today takes care of the condition
the approval to extend the -- extend the PUD for -- for an
additional
two years.
That action -- your action of approval today does extend the
PUD
approval for two years from today's date.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: So, there's no automatic return of the
zoning
to this board until two years from this date, assuming inaction on
the
property.
MR. NINO: Assuming inaction on the property, correct.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Let me ask a dumb question, Mr. Nino.
This PUD without the affordable housing agreement has sufficient
standards to -- to allow development to go forward? MR. NINO: Yes, it does.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So, if we -- if we take away the
affordable housing agreement, this PUD could stand on its own? MR. NINO: Yes, it does.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And it allows what kind of density on
its
own?
MR. NINO: Seven dwelling units per acre.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Total.
MR. NINO: Correct.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. I got it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Does that answer your question,
Commissioner
Norris?
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Further questions of staff on this
item?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Does petitioner wish to add anything?
Unless
there are any questions of the petitioner?
MR. ANDERSON: Are there any? I just want to remind you that
one
of the -- one of the stipulations that we offered on this
resolution
was that we would be coming back prior to the end of the expiration
period with a PUD amendment.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. And for the record?
MR. ANDERSON: Bruce Anderson.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you.
MR. ANDERSON: Still here. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Do I have any speakers on this, Mr.
Fernandez?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No speakers.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'll close the public hearing.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Motion to approve.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: What I'm confused about is that -- is
that
what we're supposed to be doing, Mr. Weigel, a motion to approve
the
resolution in our packet?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: No. This is --
MR. WEIGEL: No, I think -- I think that what counsel and Mr.
Nino told you is that there is another resolution that you may be
approving here at this point in time. So, your question is a good
one
to make sure we understand which resolution -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah.
MR. WEIGEL: -- we're approving.
MS. STUDENT: For the record again, Marjorie Student,
Assistant
County Attorney. Mr. Nino has a resolution that is a scrivener's
error resolution that you need to approve today. And then --
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: It's 98 dash blank that he just handed
to
us?
MS. STUDENT: It's -- it's a --
MR. NINO: No, no.
MS. STUDENT: I beg your pardon? What's the number?
MR. WEIGEL: It would be 97.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: 98 dash --
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: He just handed us 98 dash blank.
MS. STUDENT: It should be 97 and that can be --
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: That's a scrivener's error on that?
MS. STUDENT: That's a scrivener's error on a scrivener's
error,
I guess.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: On the scrivener's error.
MS. STUDENT: And that -- that should be approved today and
then
we will take your direction and do an updated resolution that has
all
the conditions that were agreed upon today. This is just for
historic
purposes.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And the updated resolution will come
back
on consent agenda so we don't have to have this discussion again?
MS. STUDENT: I think it could well come back on consent, yes.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: And as I said before, motion to approve.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Discussion on the motion?
Seeing none, all those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion carries five-zero.
Anyone who is still with us, congratulations.
Thank you, Mr. Anderson, Miss Student, Mr. Nino, Mr. Hihalic
and
all the people that support you.
Item #SB
AGREEHENT BETWEEN COLLIER COUNTY AND THE CITY OF NAPLES THAT
PROVIDES
FOR APPROPRIATE MODIFICATIONS TO THE GOLDEN GATE BOULEVARD
IMPROVEMENT
PROJECT - APPROVED
Item 8(B) under public works -- sorry, I watched the
billboards last night -- consideration of an agreement between
Collier
County and the City of Naples that provides for appropriate
modification to the Golden Gate Boulevard Improvement Project.
Mr. Ilschner, good morning.
MR. ILSCHNER: Good morning, commissioners. For the record,
Ed
Ilschner, public works administrator.
This morning we have before you an interlocal agreement
between
the City of Naples and Collier County that would provide for --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Hey, Ed, let me interrupt you, if I may for
second. Have you met with each commissioner on this item?
MR. ILSCHNER: I have met with two commissioners.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: With two commissioners.
MR. ILSCHNER: I'm sorry. Three commissioners.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Then, I'm sorry. Go ahead and
proceed.
I was going to -- I was going to shortcut this -- COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- sucker because it's --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Because it's good news.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- pretty straightforward.
MR. ILSCHNER: I have not been able to meet with all
commissioners, no.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. ILSCHNER: Let me briefly give you some background on this
issue. The Golden Gate Boulevard project was designed by our staff
in
concert with a number of public meetings in which the major concern
was the cross-section of this roadway.
And what resulted from those meetings was, and I have
provided,
by the way, for each of you the approved typical section as
currently
exists for this roadway in the form of a handout, and that is, of
course, this one that I show you here.
And this particular agreed-to section, this roadway was
centered
in the right-of-way and all the public meetings that were held with
the public indicated this. And it also indicated the existing 36-
inch
water main owned by the City of Naples located under the new
roadway.
The staff in concert with the City of Naples' staff designed
this
for
Dr.
project so that there would be conflict structures established to
allow for drainage to occur and leave the waterline in place.
The staff in January of '97 contacted the city staff, City of
Naples' staff, and requested that they provide the estimated cost
those conflict structures. It was at this time that city manager,
Richard Woodruff, of the City of Naples contacted county staff and
requested a meeting to discuss the waterline.
We met with the city manager and his staff, and the result of
that meeting was the city asked the county to place the project on
hold for a period of 60 days. This would be until July the llth,
1997.
The purpose for the hold was for the city to conduct a
forensic
test on the existing waterline to determine its remaining life and
also to perform a value engineering of the roadway project itself
to
determine if there were other alternative cross-sections that might
more cost effective for the county.
There was some delay and, of course, bringing the forensic
testing people on board to do this testing, it's a very highly
technological form of testing. That was finally done, however, and
during the interim period, staff was working with the City of
Naples
to arrive at an appropriate cross-section.
That cross-section is what we now refer to, and I refer you in
the handout I gave you to the shift-it section. It's a proposed
typical section being shifted ten feet to the south.
The 36 -- it's important to note that the 36-inch waterline
now
is no longer under the travel lanes of the roadway.
Now, this provides some advantage to, of course, Collier
County
in that we can also anticipate less damage to a roadway should
there
be a rupture, also provides some advantages, of course, to the City
of
Naples in that they will be able to access that and maintain that
line
without injuring or destroying our roadway section. So, for both
parties, that is a positive.
One of the things that we recognize fairly quickly is that
during
all the public hearings, one of the concerns was the placement of
the
roadway and the right-of-way. So, one of the concerns we expressed
to
the
the City of Naples was the issue of potential inequity concerns on
part of people abutting the project.
I would like to point out at this point in time that this
roadway
does not shift during its first one mile.
to
That's the area adjacent
the school. That was of concern to the school in the initial
public
hearings, so we're retaining the roadway in its present location
for
the first mile. The remaining four miles to Wilson Boulevard is
where
we're talking about shifting the second -- the section.
With regards to shifting the section, the closest structure
that
will result -- result from this movement will be 60 feet from the
right-of-way line and 78 feet from the edge of the new roadway.
That
would be edge of pavement or gutter. I think that's an important
point to bring to your attention.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That's the closest one, the majority of
houses
along that roadway are set back a considerable distance greater
than
that?
MR. ILSCHNER: Yes, they are. There are six homes that are
300
feet back from the edge of pavement and the bulk or remaining 60
plus
homes are at least 100 feet or more from the edge of pavement.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: In essence, a less than ten percent change
as
far as proximity of roadway.
HR. ILSCHNER: That is correct.
We drafted an agreement and provided that agreement to the
City
of Naples. They broached that agreement to their city council.
There
were some minor revisions to that agreement that were only wording
clarification points. There were no substantive changes to the
agreement with respect to the dollar amounts planned for
reimbursement
to Collier County.
I have provided you with a revised agreement for your
information, and I'll provide those agreements to -- for the record
as
well.
This agreement has been designed to ensure that Collier County
does not incur any additional cost to accommodate this line
remaining
in our right-of-way.
Since all the detailed costs and finalized design aren't
available, we consider this agreement an agreement that will also -
although we want you to adopt it at this point in time, we will
bring
that back to you at time of bidding for final amendment to
incorporate
the final cost as well as to stipulate the payment schedule
associated
with this agreement.
Let me touch just briefly on the provisions quickly for you.
The
provisions are contained in -- are general in the agreement itself.
The real meat of this is, of course, the Exhibit A.
The agreement simply says in wording that the county is going
to
design and construct a cross-section to accommodate the waterline
and,
in return, the city will agree to participate in all public
meetings
to explain the reason for the design changes and project delay.
And
the city manager has also graciously agreed to draft a letter that
we
for
will send out to all people who reside on Golden Gate Boulevard as
well as the intersectional roadways informing them of the reason
the changes and the delay.
Exhibit A though is the real meat of the agreement which
stipulates all of the particular costs and, very quickly, the city
will pay design change costs. We estimate those to be 84,400.
They
will also pay for the conflict structures totaling some hundred and
eighty thousand dollars. This accommodates the drainage. They
will
subsidize right-of-way costs.
And this is the would-be area that I -- I believe I need to
try
to clarify for you. In looking at this issue, we contacted our
real
property people and we said, what is the norm for situations in
which
we get into condemnation on parcel takes? They indicated that
usually
up to 20 percent.
Since we are shifting this roadway, we are going to build into
this some protection for the county should we exceed that norm.
And
this would pertain to, of course, the south side only. And what
this
basically states, that up to 20 percent of the parcels, there will
be
no participation by the City of Naples in the right-of-way taking.
Should those exceed the norm of 20 percent, and we set an
upper
limit of 40 percent, then there will be a differential cost between
the 40 percent takings and the 20 percent, equating to a hundred
sixty-five thousand dollars, six hundred and forty-four dollars.
That would be paid for by the City of Naples. And then once
we
in
one
reach that upper maximum limit of 40 percent of parcels resulting
condemnation, we would share equally. I think that's an important
for you to -- to understand.
There are two areas of cost we could not identify at this
point.
One of those is contractor precautionary area cost.
That has to be
determined at time of bid but will be paid for by the City of
Naples.
And the final one is contractor repair costs should there be a
need to repair the line. We don't want the contractor to be
unnecessarily delayed, so he will purchase a repair sections of
line,
have those available. The City of Naples will pay for those repair
sections.
Finally, the city will pay -- and this is in there to clarify
point. This is understood, but we want to clarify it. Since we're
allowing the line to remain within the right-of-way, any leaks that
occur in the future as a result of the line operation that are not
created by Collier County or that are natural breaks, et cetera,
they
would be paid for by the City of Naples.
And then, finally, there are two areas. There's an area in
which
the staff has accumulated about $17,425 worth of staff time
associated
with this delay and the changes negotiations associated with that
as
well as we anticipate some $3,000 in costs associated with new
public
meetings. We've asked the city to provide that. The total known
cost
at this time is $450,469.
We would plan to proceed ahead, if you approve this agreement,
establishing an information dissemination program that would take
place using the Golden Gate Gazette as well as providing letters to
all the residents along the roadway as well as intersectional
roadways, and then we would have a public meeting sometime after --
probably the first two weeks in January, one meeting in the daytime
and one meeting at night, for the benefit of informing the public
of
these changes.
That is the sum and substance of this agreement. The staff
recommends that you adopt this interlocal agreement with the
understanding that we would be bringing it back to you for an
amendment after bid and determination of cost.
I'll be happy to answer any questions. We have Dr. Woodruff
with
the City of Naples as well as George Archibald in the audience.
And
they are also available to answer any questions you might have as
well.
Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: George, I assume you were able to find your
way here today?
Okay.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: The roads still work.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Norris.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. Ilschner, you mentioned that the
first
mile of this will not be relocated.
Is the waterline going to be under the travel lanes then in
that
of
one mile?
MR. ILSCHNER: That -- that is correct, yes, sir.
There will be conflict structures associated with that if
necessary though as the original design called for. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: A lot of that has to do with the location
Big Cypress Elementary School.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Right.
MR. ILSCHNER: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: You mentioned something that's important to
me, and that is getting the information out to the people because
most
people on this roadway have said, look, we need this, it's a good
idea. There have been a few very vocal, as my read, that have
basically said, no way anyway. And this is going to be an
opportunity
for them to say, look at what the county is trying to pull on us.
I think it's very clear and very obvious here that this is the
most reasonable solution possible, that this has a minimal effect
on
any of the properties adjacent to the roadway and, hopefully, by
being
proactive in the information that you have expressed or the way
we're
going to do it, people will see that.
They'll see that we're trying to do what's in the best
interest
of the community overall. And, so, I appreciate you doing, and I
know
Commissioner Berry does, and I know the people along that corridor
do.
I -- I'm fine with staff. Do we have any other questions of
o~lr
Ty
staff on this?
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Seeing none, do we have any registered
speakers on this, Mr. Fernandez?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Yes, sir. You have two registered speakers.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. FERNANDEZ: The first is Ty Agoston.
MR. AGOSTON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is
Agoston. I live in Golden Gate Estates and I'm speaking for
myself.
I think I've told you regarding the Golden Gate Boulevard that
my
daughter totaled a car and my grandson was almost lost in the
accident
because of the overcrowding condition of that roadway.
I don't get up that early in the morning, so I couldn't
testify
as to how busy it is, but every now and then, I have to go
somewhere
at that time of day and it's absolutely phenomenal. New York City
doesn't have anything to beat the traffic that is at various cross
__
in
the
the
crossings along Golden Gate Boulevard.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: You haven't been back to New York City
awhile, have you, Ty?
MR. AGOSTON: Not me. I'm -- I swore off New York City other
than a couple of times a year.
I resent personally that -- the delay in the construction or
starting of the construction of this project for a very personal
reason and also resent the City of Naples for causing it.
I also would like to ask if we are going to reach out just to
people directly affected, meaning people living right on the -- the
roadway.
I have heard discussions where a local attorney was telling
them
that a -- a tree is worth $1,000. I mean some of those pieces of
property probably were bought for $1,000, but they're being
recommended to charge $1,000 a tree.
I believe that the whole Golden Gate Estates, unfortunately,
LISe
that one roadway to access Naples. And for you to allow a
congregation of highly interested people but do not include the
balance of the population of Golden Gate Estates, you're going to
have
another major demonstration of calling you guys names and calling
you
guys whatever you were called the last time. I don't want to
repeat
any of it.
But the fact of the matter is, is that these people do not
represent the whole of Golden Gate Estates. The whole of Golden
Gate
Estates wants that road built and wants to have it built yesterday
because they're being inconvenienced every day.
Thanks.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Agoston.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. Agoston, you mentioned the whole of
Golden Gate Estates?
MR. AGOSTON: Uh-huh.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: How are you spelling that?
MR. AGOSTON: I think it's spelled with a W but I'm not --
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I just wanted to clarify that.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Could I add something, Mr. Chairman?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yes. Commissioner Berry.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: I -- I think one of the opportunities Mr.
Agoston is that when we do have the public information meetings,
those
will be open to the public; in other words, to all of the people in
Golden Gate Estates.
But I think their idea to send mailings to the people that
live
right along in terms of property, et cetera, that was, I think,
part
of the feeling.
But when it comes to the public meetings, that's open to
everybody as they always have been. But -- but that is -- it's
certainly -- and the word will get out again by the use of the
newspaper and local media, et cetera. CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Next speaker.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Next speaker is Linda Baum.
MS. BAUM: Good morning, commissioners. My name is Linda Baum
and I'm representing ECHO, the Estates Coalition of Homeowners.
I apologize for my late arrival this morning. I had a
doctor's
appointment and we know that they're never on time.
I've had over the past 11 months several conversations with
Commissioner Berry. Members of our group have written to you.
We've
gotten responses from the commissioners.
I once again am going to come before you and urge you to
strongly
consider keeping this road within the existing hundred foot
right-of-way. We are a rural community. We need a four-lane road.
There is no doubt about it. We need it. We want it, like Ty said,
yesterday.
But the majority of people feel that an urban roadway coming
through the estates is not what we need. We need a four-lane road
which will make traveling easier, safer, and it will allow for, you
know, the free flow of traffic, not the backups that we have now.
ECHO has been accused in the past of holding this project up
by
forming, by speaking their outrage against the six-laning back in
February, the extreme four-laning now. I need it to be put on
public
record that ECHO has always stood and has always believed and
wanted
that four-lane road. We just think and we know that you can hold
it
within the hundred feet.
The -- the issue with the City of Naples over the water main,
the
in
county and the city had their first meeting, as far as I know, back
January of this year. The water main issue has been there from the
getgo.
And January 28th's Golden Gate Gazette, Mr. Hellriegel is
quoted
as saying the only fly in the ointment, according to him, on the
widening of the boulevard is the water main that parallels with the
boulevard.
Again, April 8th in Golden Gate Gazette, Mr. Hellriegel came
to
few
the April 1st meeting of ECHO, along with Commissioner Berry and a
others from the county, and told us, this is it. This is the final
plan. This is the four-lane road that you're getting, like it or
not.
This is it.
And here we are in December still sitting with traffic backed
up
as far as the eye can see, sirens still blaring because of the
accidents that continue to happen, and we're still sitting with one
road in and out of the estates.
I'm asking you respectfully, keep this road, four-lane it,
right
now. It's a dead issue. You don't have to make any deals with the
City of Naples. You don't have to spend any more money. You can
save
money by four-laning this road within the hundred feet and, again,
looking at the rest of the road network and giving us more roads to
work with in and out of the estates.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I have two questions for you, if I may.
MS. BAUH: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: First of all, in order to keep it in a
hundred
foot cross-section, we'd have to do a redesign which would probably
take somewhere near a year.
Are you advocating that?
MS. BAUH: I was -- I am under the understanding that three
years
ago you had a design for a four-lane road within the existing
right-of-way that was at 60 percent design.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Would you rather eliminate the
median
or the sidewalks?
MS. BAUH: I think the median could be downsized.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Not within a hundred feet. What would you
do?
Do you want to eliminate it?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: One or the other.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The problem is, what you're asking for,
there
are things you cannot get out of. You cannot reduce lane widths
beyond a certain point. You cannot reduce the cross-section needed
for water management beyond a certain point.
And in this roadway when you put the four lanes, the necessary
water management and one sidewalk, you're at a hundred feet, which
means there is no median, which means traffic can make -- can have
head-on collisions with no correction area whatsoever.
I think in the interest of public safety, we have a
responsibility to provide the sidewalks and a median for safe
travel.
To not do that would be to make a 25-foot decision that could
cost somebody their life, and I think that test is much higher when
it
not
comes to what our responsibility is, than the test of whether or
the roadway is ten feet closer to a home that is 60 feet off the
roadway.
It's a balancing act, and in balancing that, I just simply
disagree with you that a roadway within a hundred feet serves the
community best. I think, in essence, it would be dangerous and
would
actually be counter to what we're trying to do out there, which is
make the roadway safer.
So I -- you know -- you know, if you, folks, have a decision
on
or
that and you want to show me what you want to eliminate, sidewalks
median --
MS. BAUH: I think off the top of my head and without speaking
for the rest of the residents in getting -- I -- I've heard in the
past year enough comments coming from the residents out there and I
think the median is needed to avoid those head-on collisions. I
think
we can live with the bike path we have right now.
I don't think we need the sidewalk, especially an eight-foot
sidewalk. The median, I agree. I think you do need that in order
to
the
avoid the head-on collisions.
The sidewalk, I don't think there is a need for it. We have
bike path that is used as a sidewalk and a bike path and I think
that's fine. You know, that was put in a year and a half ago for
$170,000.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. I really encourage you to take a
look
at the cross-section because four lanes of traffic, a median and
one
bike path and water management exceeds a hundred feet.
MS. BAUM: Okay. I'm -- I'm going by the -- the typical
section
that I saw that was from three years ago.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well --
MS. BAUM: Okay. Now, you may have to redesign. You're going
to
have to redesign on this when you shift it to south. And -- and
I'll
tell you right now, and I live on the north end within the first
mile,
but I'll tell you right now, as soon as you go to shift it to the
south, if you think you've had people outraged this past year, wait
till you take this to them.
It's going to be outrageous. I've heard it already. People
are
the
__
on
not going to want this. It affects all of the estates, not just
property owners along the boulevard in that five-mile section. It
it involves everyone. It involves Ty and his neighborhood. It
involves people from Desoto and Everglades because we all use that
road.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: But, you know, you make the point from
this cross-section when you say that. It is -- it is going to
probably upset the people who are going to have a road coming in a
little bit closer to them than they thought they would, the people
the south side, you know, below the first mile.
They're not going to be happy but we have to make people
unhappy
every day because we have to look at the greater good, and the
greater
good is that cross-section. We've got to do it.
MS. BAUM: I'm convinced, Commissioner Mac'Kie, that -- that
we
could work on this project from here until kingdom come and you
will
never get everyone agreeing on every point. That's a given.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Right.
MS. BAUM: Plain and simple.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: That's right. You're absolutely
correct,
and that's why we -- we look at all the information. We listen to
the
public and we make our decisions and not everybody's going to be
happen. We understand that. And we -- we do what, as Commissioner
Mac'Kie said, is in the -- the best interest of everyone. And we
understand that not everybody's going to be happy but we live with
that. That's our job.
MS. BAUM: I understand that. I'm just urging you -- as a
final
thought, I'm just urging you that if you're going to have to
redesign,
if you can't keep the four-lane road within the hundred, let's try
to
keep it as close to the hundred as we can. Don't go the hundred
and
thirty.
If you're going to have to redesign, there has to be a way, a
compromise, between the hundred and the hundred and thirty that's
going to make this a four-lane road, make it safe, but we don't
need
all the bells and whistles.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Understood. Thank you.
MS. BAUM: Thank you, sir.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Do we have any further speakers?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No further speakers.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Seeing none, I'll close the public hearing.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Motion to approve staff recommendation.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: There's a motion to approve staff
recommendation.
Is there a second on the motion?
COMMISSIONER BERRY: I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'm not willing or prepared to remove
anything
from this cross-section. I'm not going to tell the people on the
north side of the street they shouldn't have a sidewalk. I'm not
going to tell the people on the south they shouldn't have a
sidewalk.
I'm not going to tell the people who are risking head-on collisions
they shouldn't have a median. So, I -- no, I'm sorry. I -- I
cannot
find a compromise that meets this community standards overall.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: No, and I -- I can think of an
important point. Ty, I understand your and the residents'
frustration
and I disagree a little bit with you directing it at the City of
Naples in that ironically what's happened here is should there be
no
it
problem with their lines down the road, it will cause far less
inconvenience to you and the other motoring public out there than
would have otherwise. If everything was directly under the road,
you'd have it torn up. And I -- I think, looking at long term, the
city has done the estates a favor as -- by doing that off the
middle
of the roadway.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Don't get us wrong. We blame the city
every
chance we get, so, you know --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Credit where credit is due.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: I think one thing, too.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Even when they don't get a chance.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Well, I think something we did need to
point
out, the city did not hesitate in stepping up and saying, you know,
we've created some of this delight. They -- they have not backed
off
of this.
And -- and I'll be honest with you. When I first started --
started talking about a waterline, I mean, what -- what would be
your
first impression of what this waterline might look like? Are you
thinking of a piece of PVC pipe?
Wrong. I mean, you're talking about a major structure here,
that
it's not PVC pipe. This is something that has been in the ground
for
a number of years and, as they found out, has a lot of life left to
it. I think if -- correct me, but are we looking at 50, 60 --
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Right.
MR. ILSCHNER: Thirty-two years.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: At least. So, to go in and just
discount
that and say tear it out, forget about it, ignore it, that is
wrong,
too. And, so, if you've got a structure that's -- I mean talking
about wasting money, that would be wasteful in my mind to go in
there
and ignore that and just say, hey, to heck with you, city, we're
going
to build a road over the top of this, come hell or high water. And
this is what -- this is it. We're going to do it our way.
And I think that that would be wrong in -- in the best
interest
of everybody in Collier County to do that.
So, this has been a difficult project. I -- it was one of the
things that I inherited when I first came into office. I thought
it
was '-
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: It's a nice way of saying it.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: -- simple from the standpoint of how can
anybody not want to improve that roadway if you have seen the
traffic
out on that roadway? How wrong I was, because I've never seen
anything that opened up a bigger can of worms than this roadway
project when we're trying to do and give them a roadway that's
going
to be a safer roadway, that's going to give their children out
there
access along the side to get them off of the roadway and --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: To the elementary school.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: -- to the elementary school and, frankly,
to
say?
O~lt
as
the -- you have a library out there along the parkway.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Right.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: A park.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: A park. I mean, these --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I say, let's get on with it.
What do you
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Well, I -- I tell you, they need the
roadway, the people need the roadway, and if you've been out there
both in the after -- late afternoon and in the early morning, you
cannot believe the traffic. You cannot see when it's still dark
there as long and as far as the eye can see, it is a line of light
far as you can see, and people have to pick their time to access
that
roadway because it is so congested.
The question and the answer is they do need that roadway
desperately out in that area. And I do agree with Miss Baum from
the
standpoint not only Golden Gate Boulevard, but the entire -- and
I've
chirped about this at the HPO meetings. We need to look at the
entire
roadway system in the estates, not only Golden Gate Boulevard.
That's
the first step, but there's a lot of other roadways out there that
need to be addressed as well. And it will come.
Unfortunately, it's a long process and it -- it does take some
time. So, thank you for letting me chirp about this. CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Chirping allowed.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I think we should four-lane it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: You think we ought to four-lane it?
We have an agreement before us between the county and the City
of
Naples and the staff requested to take action on that agreement.
Do I have a motion on the agreement, please?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I already moved --
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Already moved.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: -- and it was seconded.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: In that case, I'll recognize the motion and
the second and ask for a vote.
All those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion carries, five-zero.
Item #BE1
RESOLUTION 97-454, OPPOSING ENACTHENT INTO LAW OF PROPOSED FLORIDA
HOUSE BILL NUMBER 3185, WHICH INTENDS TO ARBITRARILY REQUIRE THAT
CUSTOMERS OF MANY INVESTOR OWNED WATER AND WASTEWATER UTILITIES
WILL
HAVE TO PAY COSTS OF CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS THAT SHOULD BE PAID FOR
BY
THE UTILITY'S FUTURE CUSTOMERS - ADOPTED
Tend to one more item before the break. It's an add-on, Item
8(E)(1), a resolution opposing House Bill 3185.
In essence, we passed a resolution in April of this year
opposing
this. This, in essence, is really preempting our local utility
authority.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Motion to approve.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, motion to approve
this
and pass a copy on to our beloved state representative.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Blue, do you need anything else on that?
We're all pretty familiar with it?
Any speakers on this, Mr. Fernandez?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Seeing none, I'll call the question. All
those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The resolution is adopted five to zero.
Thank you, Mr. Wallace.
Mr. Fernandez.
MR. FERNANDEZ: An informational item in conjunction with
this,
I'd just like to remind the board that we have one additional item
to
present to the legislative delegation that has previously been
before
you. It's the issue of addressing the special act regarding
bonfires
on the beach.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Yeah.
MR. FERNANDEZ: If you'll remember, the board has directed us,
so
we'll have two items that we present to the legislature delegation.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Good enough.
With that, let's go ahead and take a ten-minute break and
return
with Item 9(A).
(A recess was had.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Good after -- good morning, excuse me.
We're
going to reconvene the board of county commissioners meeting for
today, December 9th.
Item #9A
SETTLEMENT OF ROOKERY BAY UTILITIES CO. V. COLLIER COUNTY, CASE NO.
96-1-CIV-FTH-23D - APPROVED WITH CHANGES
We left off at Item 9(A) under County Attorney's report in the
agenda. This is a recommendation to consider and approve
settlement
of Rookery Bay Utility v Collier County.
I do want to ask, have you had the opportunity to meet and
brief
each commissioner individually?
MR. PETTIT: Good morning, commissioners. For the record,
Mike
Petit, Assistant County Attorney.
I have met with each of the commissioners individually except
for
in
get
and
Commissioner Norris, I believe, on this item. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: What are you waiting on?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The reason I asked that is that typically
these settlement cases, if we've had that opportunity, unless there
are any outstanding questions of -- of -- usually a lengthy
presentation isn't necessary.
I'll ask the board. Do you have any questions on this matter?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: No. This is a good settlement.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Pettit, is there anything we need to
on the record formally?
MR. PETTIT: Yes. I do want to make an amendment to the
agreement on the floor.
Rookery Bay's counsel and one of its officers is here, and he
I have discussed this. And what I'm going to do is just read the
language into the record and then we will prepare a new settlement
document and bring it in if the board votes to approve the
settlement.
The change -- and it's for purposes of clarification. I'll
take
responsibility for writing a somewhat unclear sentence here.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That will be noted.
MR. PETTIT: Page -- thank you.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: He's leaving. What does he care.
MR. PETTIT: Page 3 in Paragraph 4 and then on to Page 4 is
where
the change will occur.
At the top there's a sentence and this is in the settlement
agreement. It states, the county and Rookery Bay agree that to the
extent the boundaries of the Fiddlers Creek Community Development
district are expanded after that date, nothing in this agreement or
release shall automatically entitle the county to provide
wastewater
service to expanded -- to the expanded area without agreement of
Rookery Bay or any successor.
And we are going to add some language to the effect that that
will only apply to the extent that the expanded area in fact falls
within Rookery Bay's wastewater certificated area, just to make it
clear that obviously if the CDD expands and remains in our area we
would serve it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Any further questions Mr. Pettit?
Seeing none, is there a motion on this matter?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Motion to approve the settlement
proposal
and to thank Mr. Pettit for his continuing outstanding work and to
wish that we could persuade him not to leave us for higher ground.
MR. PETTIT: Thank you.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: You're welcome.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Is there a second on the motion?
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I was about to say it's not because of the
glowing remarks about Mr. Pettit, I hope.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Well, let's see.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We have a motion and a second. Any
discussion
on the motion?
Seeing none, all those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion carries five-zero.
MR. PETTIT: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Pettit, is this your swan song or are
we
to
going to see you again?
HR. PETTIT: You will see me again.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: But actually it will be a freebie. He
won't be on the payroll next time he's here.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, that's even better. We look forward
seeing you when we're not paying you and doing work. That's good.
Thank you, Mike.
Item #10A
RESOLUTION 97-455, APPOINTING WILLIAM EBBEN TO THE COUNTY
GOVERNMENT
PRODUCTIVITY COHMITTEE - ADOPTED
Under Item 10(A), board of county commissioners. We have an
appointment to a member of the Collier County Government
Productivity
Committee.
I want to point out here that they have done something I've
never
seen before, that I think is fantastic. They didn't just list a
recommendation. They ranked the individuals. Leave it to this
committee to do the unexpected and to do it well.
But, anyway, they did -- they ranked them for us and included
explanations and I think they should be landed for that. So, if
the
staff agrees and we'll pass them on, I'd be greatly appreciative.
Do we have discussion or a motion on this.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: I'd like to move the --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Move to approve.
Please go right ahead, Mrs. Berry.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: No. Be my guest.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Just somebody do it quick.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I'll make a motion that we nominate
William
Ebben.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. We have a motion --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- and a second.
Any discussion?
Seeing none, all those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion carries five-zero.
Item #10B
JOINT LEE/COLLIER HEETING WITH THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS -
MEETING TO
BE HELD DECEMBER 17, 1997 AT 9:00 A.H.
of
the
be
the
Item 10(B) was an add-on at my request, requesting a time and
-- a date and time for a joint Lee-Collier meeting with the Corps
Engineers.
The reason is, and each of you has had your -- your office has
been copied on the response the Corps of Engineers has provided to
questions posed by the Lee County -- or in cooperation with the Lee
County Commission. In addition to the question, we have asked on
authority.
Two things have happened since I received those. One is I
directed the response regarding the Corps' authority to perform the
study to Mr. Weigel's office for any material input he feels would
appropriate on that at this time.
And the second thing I had done is requested the Lee County
commission today discuss the date of December 17th, preferably in
morning, if not, at noon, for a joint meeting -- COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Home game?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- understanding that -- I'm sorry?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Home game?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I don't -- you know, I'd just as soon the
Lion's Club would be a good place again if they wanted to do it
there.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: That's fine.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: You know, we can certainly do it here. The
location at this point is not as important as locking in the date.
So, I want to ask two things. The first, which is the
easiest,
is does the board wish to have a joint meeting with the Lee County
commission, the Corps of Engineers either the morning or at
noontime
on the 17th?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: If you're looking for a motion,
I'll
make one that we meet with the Lee board on the 17th at 9:00 a.m.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: But assuming that -- the Lee board and
the
Corps.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yes.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I know the Corps is available. I've already
discussed it with them.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Motion and a second.
Any discussion?
Seeing none, all those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
received
for
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Weigel, I understand you -- you
my correspondence rather recently. Do you think it would be more
appropriate to provide any information next Tuesday under County
Attorney's report rather than today?
Would that be sufficient or -- I'll leave that up to you,
whichever way you'd like to go with that.
MR. WEIGEL: Well, I -- I really don't have any information
you today. I received a copy --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: In that case, next Tuesday --
MR. WEIGEL: -- just last evening.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- is starting to look real good.
MR. WEIGEL: Okay.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah. I did -- you've only had it, I
think, a
Lee
day and a half or two days, so --
HR. WEIGEL: No, I haven't received yours yet. In fact, it's
still in our office. I did receive a complimentary copy from the
County attorney yesterday afternoon.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: You got theirs before you got mine.
Okay. We need to --
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, I --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We need to discuss that interoffice --
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- mail question then.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is there a problem? I didn't notice
which
one you said was first preference, but the afternoon, 12:00
o'clock,
would be a lot better for me than the morning.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The motion was for 9:00 a.m.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: The motion was 9:00.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Oh, I'm sorry. And I seconded it, so I
guess I'll have to go with that.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think -- I will express to the Lee County
commission noon as the fallback or choice B, if that's appropriate.
I
you
-- I have my district office hours that morning but if I have --
know, if need be, I'll cancel them because this is something we
need
to get done. But we'll say choice one is 9:00 a.m., choice two is
noon. Okay.
And with that, Mr. Weigel -- particularly if any members of
the
Mr.
now
board have questions regarding that authority, please get them to
Weigel this week so that he can address them in advance rather than
having to be Johnny on the spot --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Well, he does that quite well.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- on the legal side next Tuesday.
With that --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'm going to call him Johnny from
on.
COHHISSIONER HAC'KIE: I'm sorry. Just for public knowledge,
are
we going to schedule this at that Lion's Club?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: What will happen is we'll do a press
release
as soon as I get information from the Lee County commission on
their
availability and location.
If the Lion's Club is not available, we'll determine a second
location. Once I get that, we'll do a press release and I'm sure
the
paper will be kind enough to, you know, to print that and so forth.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Clubhouse at par one, whatever.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: With that, that's the end of the regular
scheduled items for the morning.
We are to Public Comment on General Topics.
Do we have registered speakers this morning, Mr. Fernandez?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry. You did have one
speaker on this -- this item on the EIS that I failed to recognize,
Mr. Ty Agoston.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. The item is whether or not the board
should meet with Lee County and the Corps of Engineers on the 17th.
So, let's keep our comments refined to that particular decision.
MR. AGOSTON: My name is Ty Agoston. I live in Golden Gate
Estates and I'm speaking for myself.
I am a pretty outspoken antagonist to the U.S. Corps of
Engineers
controlling our growth destiny, and to be honest with you, and I
want
to be very nice here, maybe make a political statement by not
blaming
you, but I like to have a little more notice and also like to have
the
information on what's going to be discussed at these meetings, and
the
question whether this is a public meeting or not.
I understand that in Florida there is such a thing as a
Sunshine
Law, whatever, that would be covered.
I personally think that at this point in time, the Army Corps
of
be
Eng -- the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers engaged in their holistic
project building socialism in a capitalist system. And I'd like to
prepared to ask questions and I don't have any of the questions and
answers that you --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The subject --
MR. AGOSTON: -- and your commission are going to deal with
next
Wednesday.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The fact that you've been here for all the
meetings, I would assume you knew the subject matter. The subject
matter is response by the Corps of Engineers to the 46 questions
posted by the Lee County commission. We're going to have an
opportunity to discuss those face-to-face with them.
The other reason for the meeting is the Corps has met with the
Lee County commission, the Collier County commission separately.
We
want everyone to be in the same room to discuss the -- those
questions
and the Corps' authority in public, as all of our meetings are, at
the
same time so the Lee commission and the Collier commission have the
same information to either move forward on or to make whatever
future
decisions are -- are available. That's the purpose of the
meeting.
MR. AGOSTON: Is all the questions available and the responses
available to the public?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yes, they certainly are. They've been
available since I received them in my office two or three days ago.
Yes. As a matter of fact, we've already had a request for them and
fulfilled those requests.
MR. AGOSTON: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. And we're now to Public Comment on
General Topics.
Mr. Fernandez, any speakers?
MR. FERNANDEZ: You have no registered speakers for this
section,
Mr. Chairman.
Item #12B1
ORDINANCE 97-78, REGARDING PETITION PUD-82-6(3), GRANITE
DEVELOPMENT,
L.C., REQUESTING AN AMENDMENT TO THE SABAL LAKE PUD, ORDINANCE 82-
41,
AS AMENDED - ADOPTED
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Seeing none, we'll move to Public Hearings
under Item 12(B), Zoning Amendments.
The first item is PUD or petition PUD 82-6(3), Granite
Development, L.C., requesting an amendment to the Sabal Lake PUD.
Two things: This does require four affirmative votes and it
is a
quasi-judicial matter, so I'm going to ask that all members of our
staff, members of the petitioner's team and any member of the
public
here to speak on this item please now stand and raise your right
hand.
Madam Court Reporter, would you please swear them in?
(The witnesses were sworn by the court reporter.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Nino.
MR. NINO: Good morning. For the record, my name is Ron Nino.
The petition that's before you asks you to amend the Sabal
Lakes
PUD to clarify the space between accessory and principal buildings.
Actually, this petition comes to you at the urging of staff
because,
for some considerable time, we've been experiencing problems with
the
issuance of building permits for single-family houses because the
regulations were unclear.
However, there was sufficient administrative discretion in the
regulations that allowed us to do exactly what this amendment would
__
would have us do.
As a matter of fact, some 90 homes have been built in Sabal
Lakes
with screened enclosure pool -- with screen enclosures that are
within
five feet of principal buildings. However, that matter was always
somewhat unclear, but in our opinion left us admis -- sufficient
discretion.
So, we're really trying to wrap that up and -- and end the
delays
that -- that occur each and every time somebody applies to build a
home in Sabal Lakes that ends up back in the planning section, a
couple days are lost and a lot of -- a lot of that time --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Nino, does anybody object to
this
or is there --
MR. NINO: No one objects.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- any logical reason why we
wouldn't
want to do this?
MR. NINO: No reason at all and no one objects to it and the
Planning Commission unanimously supports the amendment.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: This isn't the item to do it on, but I -- I
am
going to start looking at setbacks within residential communities,
and
we'll talk about it in detail later. But I have noticed that we're
getting a lot of postage stamp developments with less -- you know,
15
feet between structures and the overall aesthetic value in that
community is really -- I think it's something that merits some
planning discussion, but I'll -- we'll -- I'm initiating that now
and
follow through in the -- the next few months on that.
Any discussion on this, on this matter?
Does the petitioner wish to add anything to Mr. Nino's
excellent
presentation?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Indicates no.
I'll close -- I'm sorry. Any speakers?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No speakers.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'll close the public hearing.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, I move staff
recommendation.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: A motion and a second.
Any discussion?
Seeing none, all those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
Item #12C2
RESOLUTION 97-456, REGARDING REVISIONS TO THE PELICAN HARSH
DEVELOPMENT
ORDER DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A SUBSTANTIAL DEVIATION REQUIRING FURTHER
DEVELOPMENT OF REGIONAL IMPACT REVIEW - ADOPTED
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Item 12(B). This also is a quasi-judicial
matter. PUD 93-1(3). George Varnadoe representing WCI Communities
for fezone, PUD to PUD, having the effect of amending the Pelican
Marsh PUD, Ordinance 95-4.
This also requires four votes. I'm going to ask that all
members
of our staff, members of the petitioner, their team and any member
of
the public here to speak on this item please stand and raise your
right hand.
Madam Court Reporter, would you please swear them in?
(The witnesses were sworn by the court reporter.)
MR. VARNADOE: Mr. Chairman, before you start, there's two
companion items and it would probably be appropriate -- I'm sorry.
George Varnadoe, for the record.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: There's two companion items.
MR. VARNADOE: There's two companion items and it would
probably
be easier and quicker if we just handle them all together.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And I'd like to disclose that I've had
some conversation with Mr. Varnadoe and Miss Watts but I'll make my
decision based on all appropriate information.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I have the same disclosure.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Identical disclosure.
Commissioner Constantine.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I don't believe I've met with them
but, regardless, my decision will be based as required by state
law.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Berry.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: I've had contact with the petitioner.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Because we have different requirements in
the
number of affirmative votes between Item 12 (B)(2) and 12(C)(2) and
(3),
Mr. Weigel, does it then require that we take separate
motions?
a
and
MR. WEIGEL: That is correct.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, could I just see if I
understand this crystal clear. They're -- they're looking to makes
some changes at Pelican Marsh. They would like to have 500 fewer
dwelling units. They would like to have less retail, less office
space. They would increase hotel space. MR. NINO: That is correct.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Is that it in a nut shell? There's
couple of other little fringe items here and there's a golf course
MR. NINO: That is correct.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Nino, have you found any reason, way,
shape or form why this is not a good thing for the community?
of
MR. NINO: No. Absolutely not. And the Planning Commission,
course, unanimously agree with that. There have been no
communications of opposition to the amendments to the petition.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'm going to ask one question of the
petitioner that I asked previously. I want to get it on the
record.
Because the fact that this affects the northeast quadrant --
yeah, northeast quadrant of -- at an intersection of two arterials,
was concerned from a transportation standpoint.
Mr. Varnadoe, is that intersection one that has slated or
proposed for a flyover due to intersection failure by the year
2020?
MR. VARNADOE: For the record, George Varnadoe.
Mr. Chairman, I asked our transportation consultant, Plummet
and
Associates, to check that out and they spoke with your
transportation
department, and also looked at your -- your 2020 plan and they are
no
provisions for a flyover at the intersection of Vanderbilt Beach
Road
and Airport Road.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. The internal roadway shown there,
will
that be a private roadway or a public roadway? MR. VARNADOE: That will be private.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: All right. Are there questions of staff or
the petitioner by the balancing members of the board?
MR. NINO: Yes. Mr. Chairman, in the last few weeks, we were
still bogged down in a couple of commitments and they were recently
resolved. They're not in your agenda package. I submitted to you
three pages that have some additional changes to them as opposed to
the original PUD document.
With respect to two of those -- with respect to two items,
Item
8.9, and our attorney's office encouraged that certain changes be
made
to indicate that impact fee credits would be allowed if the
ordinance,
the impact fee ordinance, allows them and then one additional case
item, an Item Q on Page 8.9, 8.6 of the PUD document?
MR. VARNADOE: Actually 8.7.
MR. NINO: 8.7?
It's our attorney's position that Item Q is unacceptable and
not
to be deleted. And I understand from Mr. Varnadoe that his clients
have accepted both of those modifications.
MR. VARNADOE: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Anything further, Mr. Nino?
MR. NINO: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Do we have questions of the petitioner?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I see none.
Mr. Varnadoe, is there anything at this point you feel the
need
to get on the record?
of
HR. VARNADOE: No, sir, I do not. The -- I think the report
stands -- speaks for itself.
I'd like to thank your staff for working with us. It's been a
pleasure working with your staff on this. The Regional Planning
Council and the Collier County Planning Commission have both
unanimously approved the changes and have determined them not to be
substantial deviation for the development order.
I would think that would be the first order of business is the
determination that it's not a substantial deviation and then the
amendment to the PUD and DRI after that.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: In agreeing with that, I'm going to ask the
board consider an order Item 12(C)(2) first, 12(C)(3) secondly and
then the Item 12(B)(2) finally.
With that I -- I looked in the PUD. I did not find a
requirement
for the Greg Norman Charity Golf Tournament, but I assume you'll
keep
working on that, Miss Watts? Okay.
Are there any registered speakers on this?
MR. FERNANDEZ: There are no registered speakers.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I love reading the record later.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, to someone who doesn't know me,
they're
going to think that rather odd. Okay. So, those who do know me,
they'll think it rather odd.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: We are used to you being odd.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The first item we need to consider is Item
12(C)(2).
MR. FERNANDEZ: Have you closed?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I thought I did. The public hearing is
closed.
Item 12(C)(2) is whether or not this does or does not
constitute
a substantial deviation.
Is there a motion?
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE:
PUD
Mr. Chairman, motion to approve
93-1(3) .
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Actually, the motion to find that this
does not constitute a substantial deviation.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Since the first motion is out of order with
the chair request, we'll accept the second motion.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And a second.
Any discussion?
Seeing none, all those in favor, signify by saying eye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion carries five-zero.
Mr. Fernandez.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'm terribly sorry.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Was the extent of that motion to approve the -
adopt the resolution?
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: No. That motion was to declare that it
does not constitute a substantial deviation.
is
MR. FERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The second Item 12 (C)(3), Petition DOA-97-4
-- is actually the adoption of the resolution, as I understand it.
Is that correct, Mr. Weigel?
MR. NINO: Yes. We're adopting the resolution --
MR. WEIGEL: Yeah. That's correct.
MR. NINO: -- declaring this action to represent an
insubstantial
change.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. WEIGEL: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Is there a motion on Item 12(C)(3)?
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Motion to approve.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Can I just read -- you're losing me
here because 12(C)(2) says a resolution -- MR. FERNANDEZ: Right.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- of the BCC.
MR. FERNANDEZ: That's why I --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Norris just said, no, that
wasn't
-- the motion wasn't a resolution so, I need some help with that.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, I -- I was just going by what I
heard
the motion maker say and that's what she said.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Then we'd better go back --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Let's back up -- let's back up and
clarify on Item 12(C)(2).
Was it the intent of the motion maker to adopt a resolution
stating that the -- the change does not constitute a substantial
deviation?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yes, it was.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Second, was that your intent also?
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Does anyone wish to change their
vote?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Seeing none, it stands five-zero.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Item -- and thank you. You're right.
missed the word resolution there.
Item #12C3
DEVELOPHENT ORDER 97-4/RESOLUTION 97-457, REGARDING PETITION DOA-
97-4,
GEORGE L. VARNDADOE OF YOUNG, VAN ASSENDERP & VARNADOE, P.A.,
REPRESENTING WCI COHMUNITIES, L.P., FOR AN AMENDMENT TO THE PELICAN
HARSH DEVELOPMENT ORDER 95-1 AS AMENDED - ADOPTED WITH CHANGES
Item 12(C)(3), Petition DOA-97-4. Do we have a motion on
that?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Motion to approve the DRI amendment in
accordance with staff recommendations including the changes we got
this morning to the extent they're applicable to the DRI.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: None of us could have crafted that except
you,
Commissioner Mac'Kie.
Discussion on the motion?
All those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Motion carries five-zero.
Item #12B2
ORDINANCE 97-79, REGARDING PETITION PUD-93-1(3), GEORGE L. VARNADOE
OF
YOUNG, VAN ASSENDERP AND VARNADOE, P.A., REPRESENTING WCI
COHMUNITIES,
L.P., FOR A REZONE FORM PUD TO PUD AMENDING PELICAN HARSH PUD,
ORDINANCE NO. 95-4, - ADOPTED
Item 12(B)(2) which is Petition PUD-93-1, fezone from PUD to
PUD.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Motion to approve the PUD fezone in
accordance with staff recommendations.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We have a motion and a second.
Any discussion?
Seeing none, all those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: All right. Three in one shot. Thank you.
Mr. Nino, thank you.
Item #1283
ORDINANCE 97-80, PETITION PUD-97-13, HICHAEL R. FERNANDEZ, AICP, OF
PLANNING DEVELOPMENT INCORPORATED REPRESENTING ANTHONY J. HARTIG
REQUESTING A REZONE - ADOPTED WITH CHANGES
to
Next Item 12(B)(3), Petition PUD-97-13. Hichael Fernandez,
AICP, of Planning Development, Incorporated representing Anthony
Hartig. This is a request to fezone from A, Ag, Rural Agricultural
PUD, Planned Unit Development, for a mixed use project.
Again, this is a quasi-judicial matter. It does require three
votes but I'm going to ask that all members of our staff here on
this
item, members of the petitiener's team and any member of the public
here to speak on this item, please stand and raise your right hand.
Madam Court Reporter?
(The witnesses were sworn by the court reporter.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Nine, hello again.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Can I disclose that I met with Mr.
Fernandez and Mr. DeAngelis on this matter.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I have the same disclosure.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I have met with the petitioners on this
matter
and like my colleagues, I'll base my decision on the information
that
is presented here and previously.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Follow suit.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Same decision.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Mr. Nine?
MR. NINO: Yes. Ren Nine, for the record.
PUD-97-13 asks this board to approve of rezening of land that
is
currently zoned agricultural to PUD. That land lies on the south
side
the
of
the
of Immokalee Road and it's positioned between two existing PUD's,
Southwest Professional Health Park and the Veterans Park PUD, both
which are health-related PUD's.
This PUD purports to divide the property up into two tracts,
northerly tract and the southerly tract bisected by Horseshoe
Creek,
and on the north parcel proposes the construction of 25,000 square
feet of -- of medically-related office uses.
On the south portion, the petitioner is asking you to approve
70,000 square feet of office space generally consistent with the C-
classification or a fire station administration training facility
40 dwelling units.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Whichever comes first.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: It's been reduced to 40 dwelling units?
MR. NINO: Pardon?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The staff report indicates 42.
MR. PETTIT: Forty-two. Thank you. Forty-two dwelling units.
All of those land uses are consistent with the future land use
element. The commercial is consistent by virtue of its contiguous
relationship to existing commercial. The residential is consistent
because it's within the urban residentially designated area and
within
the urban residentially designated area, the essential services are
are permitted as conditional uses. So, all of those uses are
permitted.
In terms of the traffic generation impacts of all of the uses,
analysis advises us that none of the uses would trip the five
percent
significant impact test; therefore, it's consistent with the
traffic
circulation element of the Growth Management Plan.
By virtue of the structure of the PUD in terms of its
commitment
to national preservation to the extent that the site has those, the
open space requirement connection with county sewer and water
system,
all of those things are addressed within the PUD commitments in --
in
accordance with staff review and the staff recommendations, I might
add.
This matter -- so, to that extent, the PUD is entirely
consistent
with all of the elements of the Growth Management Plan.
This PUD proposes that in the event of a fire station that a
road
would be created along the south end of the PUD on property that is
owned by the county, by Collier County, and it would -- it would
comprise of a 50-foot easement upon which the fire district would
build a road and a sidewalk.
And -- and I'm -- staff is advised that that recommendation is
clearly supported by our public services division.
are
for
to
for
Mr. Olliff is here. We're advised that -- that that is an
acceptable proposition. And that would be the only condition,
incidentally, under which the fire station would be built on this
site.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. NINO: The PUD has crafted the standards that -- that are,
for all practical purposes, consistent with -- with standards that
-- that -- that apply to those types of land uses in the Land
Development Code.
We have an additional setback requirement in this PUD for --
development that fronts on Immokalee Road, which is consistent with
our view that perhaps the minimum setback of 25 feet for commercial
buildings isn't adequate, isn't sufficiently adequate as it relates
a major thoroughfare such as Immokalee. And in all cases that we
brought before you, we've insisted on greater setbacks than the
minimum that is allowed, otherwise allowed, along Immokalee Road
commercially zoned projects.
The Planning Commission --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: It's a good consistent theme, Mr. Nino.
Thank
you.
MR. NINO: The Planning Commission reviewed this petition and
unanimously recommended its approval. The EAV reviewed this
petition
and their -- all of their considerations and stipulations are
included
within the PUD document that is before you.
We -- we'd be pleased to answer any questions. The petitioner
is
to
here. I believe there is an issue that -- that came up at the last
minute that -- that Mr. Fernandez is going to discuss, and there is
party representing the person that raised that issue here similar -
similarly to discuss that issue.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Questions for Mr. Nino?
MR. NINO: Let me say for the record -- there's one additional
thing.
Mr. Olliff advised me earlier that this petitioner had agreed
construct the sidewalk, bike path, all the way from Immokalee Road
the Collier County Park and -- and that stipulation needs to be
inserted within the PUD document. I understand there's concurrence
with that.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. We'll ask the petitioner to verify
that.
Question for you, Mr. Nino. On Tract B --
MR. NINO: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- looking at basically six units an acre,
which is typically a multifamily product.
MR. NINO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Is that consistent with the adjacent land
uses
to the east?
MR. NINO: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Or to the west? Excuse me.
MR. NINO: I think if you -- our staff report ironically
points
out that because of the development that is on either side of it,
the
development that's on the back of it, quite frankly, from our
professional point of view, the least desirable use here is the
residential use. And I think you, as a planner, would agree that -
to
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Agreed.
MR. NINO: -- that this is the best place in the world to go
build residences. However, as we pointed out, that is an allowable
use under the future land use element. It is urban residential
although it's in a rather tight, small, confined area;
nevertheless,
that is -- that is approved. That is permitted.
And, furthermore, given those constraints, the only likely
market
response, I think you will agree, is multifamily. CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Right.
MR. NINO: And multifamily had a density of less than six
units
per acre. It's not likely to fly.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Agreed.
Further questions for Mr. Nino?
Seeing none, let's go to the petitioner.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Good morning, commissioners. Michael
Fernandez
of Planning Development, Incorporated representing the landowner.
The project, as Mr. Nino stated, is of two parcels, the front
parcel being a commercial piece.
There are three potential uses for the southern portion of the
parcel, one of them being a fire department, which is the
preferred,
and should it get approved, then, of course, the other two uses are
the
are inconsequential because they'll never happen.
The fire department proposes to have a fire department station
there along with an administration and training facility, although
training facility is largely contained within the building.
Exterior
to the building, there is a four-story training tower that will be
used for repelling and training with hoses on multistructure --
multistoried structures.
However, other than that, all training will occur in the
building. There is no burn centers outside of the facility. There
are no additional training exercises that are going to be done
outside
of that.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: No different than what the city has down on
26th?
HR. FERNANDEZ: Yes. That's correct. I'm familiar with that
piece.
The facility that you're reviewing here is substantially
reduced
in scope from what was brought before you from another piece of
property that was proposed on Immokalee Road sometime ago. This
facility is for the use of the North Naples Fire District. It's
not
is
for other agencies. And --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: One thing that's consistent, Mr. Fernandez,
an overabundance of parking. I don't know who keeps doing the fire
department plans but they apparently love parking spaces.
MR. FERNANDEZ: There -- there is within the facility a -- a
conference center so that they can hold gatherings there --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. FERNANDEZ: -- and the facility -- the parking that's
shown
there is commensurate with the regulations for this facility as per
the Land Development Code.
The facility itself is situated to the south of the property
and
would have access down Veterans Park Drive.
I will confirm Mr. Nino's comment that the petitioner has
agreed
to put in a sidewalk along the east side of Veterans Park Drive
from
the park entrance all the way to the exit of Veterans Park Drive
onto
Immokalee Road. This will effectively remove pedestrians right now
that are sharing that roadway with Veterans Park Drive.
In addition to that, as part of the stipulations that are
incorporated in the PUD, the fire department would propose a
traffic
signal subject to Collier County transportation division review at
the
intersection and is willing to pay for that. And my understanding
this is something that the fire department -- or the parks
department
has been looking for to -- for some time, an on-call facility that
would allow them to disperse people when they have significant
events
at the park facility itself.
At the entrance to the drive to the fire department project,
we'll also have a pole signalization with a light so that that can
be
triggered as well as the one at Veterans Park Drive and Immokalee
Road
giving added safety and giving warning to people when the fire
department vehicles are going to be coming out.
The other intent, and this again gets a little bit further
into
the process, but it's to propose a three-way intersection there, so
there -- it becomes customary that people understand that vehicles
may
or may not be entering at that point. And it will create then a
more
formal entrance into the park area.
We believe this is a good compatible use with the park itself.
The -- Collier County also shares a facility with the fire
department
up at Pelican Bay and to our knowledge has not had problems either
with the park or with the adjacent residential areas.
Now, in the event that the fire station administration
facility
is not approved, the two other uses are residential and commercial.
Those facilities would not have the need for access from the parks
property. Access would be from Tract A with a bridge constructed
over
the Horse Creek, so it would be an internal access different than
the
other one.
A couple points of clarification. Ron Nino mentioned 25,000
square feet. The developer has said in the PUD document it's only
20,000 square feet, so a little bit lower.
And relative to the intensity of the residential development,
the
see
the
42 units that are requested is -- is what the owner would like to
-- would have liked to get approved if possible and that would give
him an alternative to use to the commercial.
He has some concern that with what was approved recently in
area that it may not be a timely use and that the residential may
actually be a better alternative, although I would agree with Mr.
Nino
that's probably the least desirable from everybody's standpoint,
the
residential component of the facility.
In addition to that, Mr. Nino did mention that there is some
concern from one of our neighbors who recently gained knowledge of
the
to
the
and
facility. They're creating a -- a health center and they're called
CareMatrix. It's an ALF project.
They've asked us to accept certain conditions. We've agreed
those conditions and I'll read them into the record. The chief of
fire department has reviewed these as well and has accepted them
their attorney, John Cardillo, is here today and if you have any
further questions --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: How many conditions are there, Mr.
Fernandez?
MR. FERNANDEZ: There are six conditions.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Better yet, why don't we go ahead and just
enter them into the record by passing them to the court reporter?
And
the
do you have copies for the board to look at?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No, we don't. We just --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: In that case, why don't you read them into
record?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Okay. These were just hammered out during the
__
before the meeting.
The training facility does not involve the use of fire or
smoke
and shall operate only between the hours of 8:30 and 4:30 p.m. and
shall meet the LD -- the county's LDC noise ordinance requirements,
90-17, as amended.
The fire station shall have no outdoor sirens. The automated
traffic signal shall be installed at the intersections of the fire
station driveway and the Veterans Park Drive and at Immokalee and
Veterans Park Drive subject to Collier County review and shall be
triggered by remote controls in the emergency -- within the
emergency
vehicles so that turning movements could be made as safely and
quietly
as possible.
Sirens and horns are not to be used unless determined
necessary
by the operator. The sirens and horns not to be -- the sirens and
horns are not to be used on Immokalee Road until the emergency
vehicles have passed the CareMatrix facility to the west and the
nursing home immediately to the east unless the demand requires
that,
as determined by the operator, that future EMS vehicles using this
facility will abide by the same standards if and when that happens.
And the developer also further agrees to minimize the removal
of
trees in the areas that are not to be developed.
One last item, we've also received a request from Mary
Morgan's
office to utilize the facility for an elections center and the fire
department, if they purchase the property, will sign the document
that's been given them so that it can be used as a precinct.
She has related to us that this is an area that they've been
looking for one for sometime and this would be a perfect complement
for their existing facilities.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And there's plenty of parking for them so
we're in good shape there.
Anything else, Mr. Fernandez?
MR. FERNANDEZ: That's it. I'll be happy to answer any
question
you may have.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Question for Mr. Nino.
My concern is one of exclusive use; in other words, if -- is
there anything in the PUD that says if the fire department goes in
Tract B, nothing else can go there?
If 42 dwelling units go in there, no commercial either.
MR. NINO: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We've been presented three scenarios. I
just
want to make sure that no two of the scenarios can be mixed on
Tract
B.
MR. NINO: Yes. That's provided for in the PUD.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Commissioner Norris?
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Actually, I go a step farther than that.
Since I've been on the board, I've not been receptive to having
multichoice PUD's.
When we had our conversation, I was under the understanding
that
you were going to present this as a fire station. I'm not
supportive
of giving you options in your PUD. You know, you've got three just
totally disparate uses defined in here; fire station, medical
office
buildings or residential. Well, pick one and let us know. But I
want
to know what I'm voting on what's going to go in there before I
vote
on it.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Okay. The fire department is prepared, I
believe, to close on the property on the December 12th, I believe,
John, assuming that the rezoning is granted.
The land developer was insistent on options in case you did
not
or
the
approve the fire department. He wanted something to fall back on
if they didn't close by that date.
My understanding -- because we talked about a self-healing
document that if -- if the fire department did not close with the
property or did close on the property, the others would disappear
altogether, but I was told that that's a self-healing document and
that's not something that is allowable. But the -- so, basically,
-- the two alternative uses are really just backups.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Well, if the closing is planned for
Friday, then you wouldn't have any objection if we just passed it
with
the fire department use?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Just a moment, please.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I can see this thing zipping right along if
that's agreed to.
MR. CARDILLO: Hay I address the board? My name is John
Cardillo
and I represent the North Naples Fire Commission, and we're -- if
this
is approved, we're going to close. It is not the 12th. It's the
first week of January, but we are going to close. We have plans
ready
to go.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah. I'm certainly -- I'm not trying to
tie
the hands of the property owner but, you know, Commissioner Norris,
and you've been consistent about this, I will agree with you.
I was leaning towards, you know, either the commercial or fire
station but not all three. I was -- I was going to ask that we
remove
the residential just because I'm not terribly comfortable with it.
But, you know, with -- with the legal representative, at least
expressing the intent of the fire district to close on the property
in
January, I think if it were not to happen, the petitioner could
very
easily come back and say, you know, it didn't happen as
anticipated.
This is the specific use of the land we're now requesting and we'll
be
able to review that in its entirety. And that is consistent with
what
we've done in the past on -- or at least in the recent past on
PUD's.
So, I want to at least narrow the uses, but I am certainly
supportive of -- of specifying the, you know -- the plan we have,
and
and
some we have a plan for and we don't have a plan for residential
we don't have a plan for commercial. We don't know what it will
look
like. So -- and we're talking just about Tract B. I understand
Tract
A is going to be commercial period.
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: They -- they only requested one use for
that.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Right.
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: But the problem on Tract B, is let's --
let's say, for example, we pass it as presented here today and for
whatever reason the fire department did not go forward with their -
their proposal and the property was shifted to 42 units of
residential, well, we don't get to see that anymore. We've already
approved it. We don't get to see any -- any architectural -- MR. CARDILLO: Oh, I agree completely.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: -- renderings. We don't know what kind
of
residential it's going to be.
I'm
just not willing to do that.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
Cardillo
or anything else, John?
We don't know anything about it, so
Any further questions of Mr.
to
MR. CARDILLO: No. That's all.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. CARDILLO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Do we have any speakers on this, Mr.
Fernandez?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Yes, sir. We have four.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We have four registered speakers? Let's go
those.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Jim Norquest. Are they all three together?
Then
Bruce Tyson and Ernest Cox.
MR. COX: If I may, my name is Ernest Cox. I'm an attorney
with
Gunster, Yoakley, Valdez-Foli and Stewart. I represent CareMatrix.
CareMatrix is the owner of property immediately to the west of this
that is currently being developed as an assisted living facility.
It
is currently under construction as part of an adjoining PUD and
will
be operational.
We do have a schematic which just shows where the proposed
fire
station would be, our facility, as it will be developed.
With me today is Bruce Tyson, the land planner on our project
and
any
also Jim Norquest of CareMatrix.
I would --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'm not attempting to limit your input in
way but I heard Mr. Fernandez read into the record six conditions
that
were agreed upon between CareMatrix and the petitioner. If those
are
included as a part of any motion here, does CareMatrix have any
objection to the proposed project?
MR. COX: We -- we are agreeable to the project as proposed
with
those conditions. I would just briefly like to ask Jim Norquest
just
-- just so that the commission is clear as to what exactly it is
that
CareMatrix has next door.
We believe we're going to have a fine relationship with the
fire
department. We've talked to the chief. The chief has agreed.
Everybody's on board with these conditions, but I do think it is
important for the commission to briefly understand CareMatrix'
concerns with the people that will be living there.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Let's go ahead and hear from him.
MR. NORQUEST: Jim Norquest from CareMatrix for the record,
and I
will be brief because I think everybody understands the situation
here.
But this is an assistant living facility. I'll just restate
Some
obvious points.
It's a residential use. The average age in this facility is
probably about 80 years old. We simply have to be in a position of
assuring that our residents have the greatest possible amount of
peace
and security here.
So, therefore, our obvious concern is with the fire station
and
the
use
with any potential noise or smoke that it might generate. I've
already been assured by the fire chief that there will be no smoke
associated with the training facility so I'm completely comfortable
with that.
We have worked out some conditions that I think ameliorate our
concerns about the sirens. But just to -- I just want to state on
record that our concern here is that we can't have indiscriminate
of horns and sirens from either EHS vehicles or fire trucks here.
Obviously, our people will be greatly adversely affected by
that
and we have to look out for them.
the
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I certainly appreciate the fact you
agreed to those items. I do have a question.
If they are not being met somewhere along the line, who has
authority and what happens to enforce it?
MR. NORQUEST: That's always a problem. How do you enforce
these
things? That's -- that's one reason why we wanted to have them in
the
record as conditions of approval and not just as some sort of
letter
or loose, floating understanding and why I wanted to get up here
and
say this and have my comments on the record, too.
I've talked to the fire chief myself and I have a feeling of
comfort from talking to him because, first of all, he had impressed
me
as a straightforward person.
Secondly, his office is going to be right here in this
facility,
so I feel like there's some accountability there for us. If we do
have a problem, we'll call him first before we come back to you, I
assure of you that. I just wanted my comments on the record.
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Thank you for that.
Looking at the -- the map that's up on the board there, your
facility is the sort of salmon colored -- usually -- use -- there's
and
handheld microphone right behind you on that corner. MR. NORQUEST: Okay. I think I'm on now.
Yes. This is our facility here. This is the part before --
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Show me Immokalee Road.
MR. NORQUEST: Immokalee Road is right up here.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay.
MR. NORQUEST: This is Veterans Park Drive that goes down to
Veterans Park. This is the four-story training tower right here
this is the fire station itself.
Our concern, of course, is that there's only about 450 feet
here
at the closest point between our building and the fire station.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: And what is the distance from your
building
to Immokalee Road?
MR. NORQUEST: 740 feet to this intersection.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: No, no, no. Just straight --
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Straight up.
MR. NORQUEST: Oh, probably about 150 maybe, something like
that.
I'm estimating.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS:
it
So, it's closer to Immokalee Road than
is to the fire station? MR. NORQUEST: Yes.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: You understand that there's vehicles
going
across Immokalee Road with sirens going -- MR. NORQUEST: Yes. We're just trying to keep it from getting
at
any worse.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Understood.
MR. NORQUEST: I mean there's a hospital there. We knew that
when we bought the property.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Any other questions of the
representative from CareMatrix?
Seeing none, Mr. Fernandez, do you have anything else to add
this time?
HR. FERNANDEZ:
residential
the
The petitioner agrees to remove the
use from the property.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: But would like to keep the commercial in?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Would like to keep the commercial in only on
basis that if for some unknown reason the fire department doesn't
close on the property.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: At least in commercial we do have
architectural and site design standards that would apply to this
site
if commercial development occurs?
MR. NINO: Yes. That is correct.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Do we have any additional registered
speakers?
MR. FERNANDEZ: John Cardillo also registered, but he got the
opportunity earlier. I don't know --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. FERNANDEZ: -- If he has additional comments.
MR. CARDILLO: Pass.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: He's -- he's done.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Okay.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And no others?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Those are all.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'll close the public hearing.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, I'll make a motion we
approve the item with the fire use only and with the sidewalk that
was
yes
in
the
-- I think Mr. Fernandez nodded. I don't know if we got a verbal
on the record.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Yes, we did.
COHHISSIONER NORRIS: And the six commitments?
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: And the six commitments as outlined
their agreement with --
COHMISSIONER BERRY: And I'll second it.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And the commercial use.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: No. It's not part of my motion.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Oh.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Your motion strikes, effectively strikes,
residential and commercial uses on Tract B.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Can we do that without the agreement
from
the petitioner, Mr. Weigel?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE:
MR. WEIGEL: Yes, you can.
That's why they're petitioning us.
to
it
way,
on.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion and second. Any discussion on the
motion?
Seeing none, all those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion carries four-one.
Mr. Fernandez, thank you.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I just think you should have been able
keep the commercial, too.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I do, too, but I wasn't going to submarine
for that.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Well, if that --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I didn't know who else was voting which
so at least give him the use that we think they're going to close
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Strange.
Item #12C1
ORDINANCE 97-81, AMENDING COLLIER COUNTY ORDINANCE 95-22 WHICH
ESTABLISHES THE IMMOKALEE ENTERPRISE ZONE DEVELOPMENT AGENCY -
ADOPTED
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Let's -- the next item is Item 12 C)(1),
ordinance amending Collier County Ordinance 95-22, which
establishes
the Immokalee Enterprise Zone Development Agency.
Mr. Mihalic, does the term no brainer seem to fit this one?
MR. MIHALIC: Absolutely, commissioners. This essentially
does
what you want it to make an ex officio member of the director of
agricultural services on this --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Motion to approve.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Do we have any speakers on this, Mr.
Fernandez?
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: We have to close the public hearing
before
we can vote on these motions.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'll close the public hearing.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'll make a motion to approve the
item.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I just said that.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: There's been no motion yet because
he
hadn't closed the public hearing. COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Ignore it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The public hearing is now closed.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, I'll make a motion we
approve the item.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: I'll still second it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We have a motion and a second.
Any discussion on the motion?
Seeing none, all those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion carries five-zero.
Items 12(C)(2) and (3) were previously heard.
Item #13A1
RESOLUTION 97-458, REGARDING PETITION OSP-97-3, WILLIAM L. HOOVER,
AICP, OF HOOVER PLANNING SHOPPE REPRESENTING JAMES S. LINDSAY, BANK
DIRECTOR OF FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF NAPLES - GOLDEN GATE BRANCH,
REQUESTING APPROVAL OF OFF-SITE PARKING AND A BANK ATM - ADOPTED
We are under Board of Zoning Appeals, Item 13(A)(1), Petition
OSP-97-3, Bill Hoover, AICP, of Hoover Planning Shoppe representing
James Lindsay, bank director of First National Bank of Naples,
Golden
Gate Branch.
This is a request of an approval for an off-site parking and a
bank ATM for property described as Lots 31 and 32, Golden Gate,
Unit
3.
This is a quasi-judicial matter, therefore, we're going to
need
to swear in all members of our staff, members of the petitioner's
team
and anyone here to speak on this item.
Would those individuals please stand and raise your right
hand?
Madam Court Reporter, would you please swear them in?
(The witnesses were sworn by the court reporter.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: This matter requires three affirmative
votes
of the board to be approved. Mr. Reischl, good morning.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Can I disclose, please, that I've had a
brief conversation with Mr. Richter on this matter?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I should -- I keep forgetting to go to that
today.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I have had some conversation on this but
I'm going to base my decision on what we hear today.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Likewise, I've had a discussion with Mr.
Richter and I'm going to base my decision on the information
presented
on the matter.
Commissioner Constantine?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And Commissioner Berry.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: I don't think I had any discussion with
Richter on this. Just lucky, I guess.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Apparently -- apparently he doesn't like
you.
COMMISSIONER BERRY:
votes.
No. Apparently he figures he's got four
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Reischl, with that inauspicious
statement,
let's -- let's go ahead and proceed.
MR. REISCHL: Good morning, commissioners. Fred Reischl,
Planning Services.
This is a request for off-site parking for the First National
Bank of Naples, Golden Gate Branch. It's located at the
intersection
of Golden Gate Parkway and Tropicana Boulevard.
The blue on the site plan is the existing First National Bank
site. The yellow is the proposed off-site parking facility, which
is
of
currently zoned RMF-12.
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, I don't know how long
a presentation we need here. The -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Ditto.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- bank's been an excellent
corporate
neighbor of the Golden Gate community. They're trying to improve
the
area, do a little more banking there and the loss of an RMF-12 in
that
particular area will not be a great loss.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: No. That is a great improvement to the
area.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Obvious and plain community benefit from
the
petition.
MR. REISCHL: Mr. Chairman, there's two things that the -- one
thing that the code requires that you put on the record.
One of the criteria states that there shall be no traffic
exiting
onto local roads. Tropicana Boulevard is a local road; however,
staff
believes that it functions as a minor collector. If the board
confirms that, that would take care of that criteria.
And the Planning Commission did unanimously approve the
petition
with the ATM and I just wanted to let you know that staff's opinion
was that the ATM was a commercial use and not part of an OSP.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think on that point we've got to find a
different way to define it because in my opinion it's an adjunct
use,
you know, that in -- in of itself, you know, it's kind of like the,
you know, the machines that give you bottled water. I mean it's
tough
to say that that can only go --
MR. REISCHL: Well, actually, that requires a conditional use.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, which -- which is a public hearing.
MR. REISCHL: Right.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: But not necessarily defined as a commercial
It's just a conditional use.
So, my -- my point is that there -- if -- if we're going to
use.
have
our
situations such as this in the future, we need to take a look at
as
to
code and find a common sense place for them because it's very
difficult for me to consider an ATM a commercial use. It's about
innocuous as you can get --
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. Chairman --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- on a piece of property.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: -- I can see that this is moving along
pretty fast, but Mr. Richter has been here all day. We should at
least make him get up here and say something on the record.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think given the opportunity for him not
say anything would be far advantageous.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Second. Keep him in --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: It's not very often we get to beat up the
petitioners, so thank you for being here today, Mr. Richter.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: He's such a good target.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah. I understand your -- I understand
your
point, Mr. Reischl, but, you know, I guess I just disagree that we
would designate ATH's as commercial uses, and in this particular
case,
I think the community benefit far outweighs any designation as such
and we may want to look at our code to find a more comfortable
niche
for things like this in the future that -- that doesn't raise that
question.
Further questions of staff?
Seeing none, any registered speakers?
MR. FERNANDEZ: None.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Seeing none, does the petitioner want to
talk
us out of this one?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I see a lot of heads nodding no.
I'll close the public hearing.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, motion to approve the
item recognizing Tropicana as a minor collector.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion and a second. Any discussion on the
motion?
Seeing none, all those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion carries five-zero.
Item #13A2
RESOLUTION 97-459, REGARDING PETITION CU-97-17, BEAU KEENE, P.E.,
REPRESENTING JERRY R. HOOKS AND CATHERINE J. BOYETTE REQUESTING
CONDITIONAL USE "23" OF THE "A" RURAL AGRICULTURAL ZONING DISTRICT
FOR
A SPORTING AND RECREATIONAL CAMP INCLUDING AIRBOAT TOURS FOR
PROPERTY
IN SECTION 36, TOWNSHIP 51 SOUTH, RANGE 27 EAST, LYING SOUTH AND
WEST
OF U.S. 41, CONSISTING OF 194+ ACRES - ADOPTED WITH CHANGES
Next Item 13(A)(2), Petition CU-97-17, a conditional use. Mr.
Beau Keene representing Jerry Hooks and Catherine Boyette,
requesting
Conditional Use 23 of the Ag Zoning District for a sporting and
recreational camp including airboat tours.
This also is a quasi-judicial matter requiring four
affirmative
votes.
Would anyone from the public, members of the petitioner's team
and our staff, please stand and raise your right hand to be sworn
in.
Madam Court Reporter?
(The witnesses were sworn by the court reporter.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you.
Mr. Reischl, are you back up to bat again here?
MR. REISCHL: Yes.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: But before he does, let me disclose
that I
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I was actually going to get to that on my
ownr
but go ahead.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Oh, darn. Is that I've had a brief
conversation this morning with Mr. Pires in behalf of the
petitioner
and also had a meeting with someone who's going to speak in
opposition.
Tami, I've forgotten your last name.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: House.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Norris.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I have had conversation on both sides of
this issue but I'm going to base my decision here in this public
hearing.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Berry.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: I've had discussion with both sides of
this
issue as well.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Constantine.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I don't know that I have but
regardless, I'll base my decision according to the statutes of the
State of Florida.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I've had discussions with Mr. Pires and Mr.
Hooks and Miss House on this matter. I'll base my decision on the
the
29
you
information presented here before us.
Mr. Reischl, with that --
MR. REISCHL: Good morning again. Fred Reischl, Planning
Services.
This is a request for a conditional use for airboat tour
operations and this site is located on East 41 and this map is
probably a reduced copy of the best map I could find to show you
location.
This blue line is State Road 92. This blue line is State Road
and the --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I couldn't see the first blue line.
just knock over that camera? No, I'm just kidding.
MR. REISCHL: Very, very close to the edge. It's
approximately
three miles east of State Road 92 and 12 miles west of 29.
Could
by
on
Do
The site is all of the section located south of U.S. 41 owned
Mr. Hooks and, as you can see in the aerial, there are -- well,
they're highlighted on here but these are existing airboat trails
the aerial.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Mr. Reischl, is -- if we were familiar
with the recent swap with Barton Collier so that this -- this is
adjacent to property that was recently added to the Ten Thousand
Islands preserve?
MR. REISCHL: Yes. That was my next exhibit here.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: It's the neighborhood we're in?
MR. REISCHL: This -- if you can see this whole pink dot here,
that's the subject property. This is the Picayune Strand State
Forest. The yellow is the --
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Is that -- that's a state forest?
they own that property?
HR. REISCHL: Under -- slated for acquisition, put it that
way.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: So, that would be -- that would then make
it
the alleged Picayune Strand State Forest.
MR. REISCHL: Yes.
And the yellow is the Collier-Seminole State Park and the blue
is
by
the Ten Thousand Islands, so, basically, the property is surrounded
state and national parks.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE:
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Of the alleged.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Of the alleged.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: But the blue is real.
real
important.
MR. REISCHL: Yes. We had that verified.
use
Except the green part.
I think that's
The petitioner proposes to utilize only the existing trails on
the property, and as you read in the resolution, he has agreed to
nonaircraft engines, has specific mufflers and spark arrestors.
The boats have been changed from the recommendation of the
Environmental Advisory Board. That was changed at the Planning
Commission.
The size of the boats was reduced from 18 to 16 feet. Six
passengers would be permitted on each boat and the CCPC permitted
four
boats to operate on the trail at one time, whereas the EAB
recommended
three.
And that was -- basically, that was the reason for one of the
negative votes for the Planning Commission was that the chairman
thought that the -- he was not opposed to the project but was
opposed
to the fact that we bail out one more boat than the EAB
recommended.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: How many boats are they going to have?
MR. REISCHL: Well, this was just at one time, so the current
recommendation by the Planning Commission is four boats. No more
than
four boats operating at one time.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Four boats with --
MR. REISCHL: One hundred ninety-four acres on -- with a
maximum
of six passengers.
And the hours were also limited to -- from one hour after
sunrise
to one hour before sunset.
And there was a letter from the Ten Thousand Islands National
Wildlife Refuge, which requested that there be a buffer of 50 yards
between park boundaries and the trails.
And, as you can see in yellow, I hope you can see, in yellow
here
is a 50-yard line and at two points, the existing trails come
within
approximately 25 yards of Ten Thousand Islands National Wildlife
Refuge.
The opposition -- the park manager or park representative had
no
objection to the incursion at those two points. Basically, the
alternative would be to cut new trails, which in the area of
critical
state concern is almost impossible to do.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So, the manager of the Ten Thousand
Islands preserve does not object to this petition.
MR. REISCHL: Well, he was at the EAB and after it was
discussed,
that the only two places they would come within the 50 yards would
be
those two existing trails. He didn't state anything else. I can't
state for certain that he didn't have an objection but he didn't
publicly object, no.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I see. Thank you.
MR. REISCHL: And, as I said, the -- the Planning Commission
and
the EAB recommended approval of this.
yOU.
If yOU have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them for
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Questions for Mr. Reischl?
Mr. Reischl --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Just one.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Go ahead.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Well, mine was if we were adopting a
standard for airboats in Collier County, would it be the staff's
recommendation of one per 50 -- or what would it be; one per 25
acres?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: On this one? One per forty-eight and a
half
acres.
MR. REISCHL: Fifty approximately.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: One per 50 acres is a rational
recommendation.
MR. REISCHL: Well, we -- as you recall, a few months ago we
came
before you and asked if there were going to be standard
stipulations
and you decided not to have standard stipulations.
The EAB recommended three boats and then the Planning
Commission,
after listening to Mr. Hooks, recommended four. So, we're not --
we're not necessarily using a standard or a percentage of land as
to
how many votes. We were just taking it on the fact that he is
requesting smaller boats and more -- one more boat with a smaller
sized boat.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Berry?
COHMISSIONER BERRY: What's the difference between a smaller
boat
and a bigger boat?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Two feet.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Well --
MR. REISCHL: Just -- just two feet in this case.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: -- I understand that.
MR. REISCHL: No. The --
COHMISSIONER BERRY: I mean, what -- no. Okay.
Bad question.
What's the difference -- what's the difference in impact of a
smaller boat versus a larger boat?
MR. REISCHL: Very low.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Nothing.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That's my point is it's --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: It's not relevant.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: It's not the size of the boat. It's the
frequency.
No. It's the number of total boats that are operated
throughout
the day. The difference in any potential damage from a 16 to
18-footer, if you look at the engine size for noise and whatnot,
it's
really not that significant.
MR. REISCHL: And that stipulation didn't change from the
number
of boats. The mufflers and spark arrestors -- CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Right.
MR. REISCHL: -- all stayed the same.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. The reason I wanted to -- the reason
didn't support saying one boat per how many acres is it ignores the
conditions on the existing properties. In other words, if you're
running in existing trails that have been there for 50 years,
that's
different than if you are, you know, running in an area that has a
lot
more saw grass, a lot more vegetation.
In other words, the impacts of the boat are going to be more
obvious. So, I think that flexibility has to come into play when
you
look at what is the proposed route of the boats and that -- you
know,
so I think saying one per hundred acres or something would ignore
the
site conditions and either determine a good site or a bad site for
that kind of use.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I had one more question. That was just
it may be an environmental staff kind of question instead, so I
don't
know and I don't see them here, but the existing trails that have
already disturbed the grasses and wetlands obviously, if they were
if they were to continue undisturbed from today till -- how long
would
it take for them to regenerate themselves or could they?
MR. LENBERGER: For the record, Stephen Lenberger, Current
Planning.
I don't think anybody knows the answer to that question. It
would depend on the type of habitat. These canals or these
channels
are functioning as tidal creeks at this time, so it --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I see.
MR. LENBERGER: -- may take them a very long time to
regenerate.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Not all of these were formed by airboats.
Some of them are natural, as I understand. Is that correct, Mr. Lenberger?
MR. LENBERGER: That was my understanding, yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And there's a -- you can kind of see a
difference where --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- you know, it's pretty obvious but, you
know, and look at the -- the way these things meander. If you're
going to make one with an airboat, you'd make it a little
straighter
than that.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And, in fact, they did all the way to
Everglades City.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That has happened, yes, it has, but anyway
MR. REISCHL: I also was just notified of a correction to what
told you. It was not a representative of Ten Thousand Islands. It
the
to
was a representative of Collier-Seminole at the request of -- CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: But we don't have any letters of objection
from the Ten Thousand Islands sanctuary or refuge?
MR. REISCHL: There was -- right. That was a letter that
requested the 50 yard.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. But are they aware of the two
encroachments and have they responded officially to those?
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Doesn't sound like it.
MR. LENBERGER: No. They have -- they have not responded to
encroachment.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. LENBERGER: They are aware that the trails do come closer
the border and their property is posted at this time.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Thank you.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Are there any maps that or -- I could
hold
and look at for a minute about the trails, the locations of the
trails? Do you guys have them or -- I just want to understand
where
the trails go.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah. There's three aerials up, so I'm
sure
somebody can hand one to you.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yes. That's --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Are there further questions of Mr. Reischl
or
Mr. Lenberger at this time? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Norris.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Oh, you get the whole thing.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, I'll share. Thanks.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. Reischl, one question I've been
curious
do
about. Does this -- does this particular petition have the same
conditions and stipulations on it as the existing airboat operators
today?
MR. REISCHL: The most similar would be Everglades Private
Airboat Tours. The one that's not quite the same would be the
Gator
Airboat Tours. That basically operates on open water.
Everglades Private operates on a series of trails similar to
this, so we used -- and the EAB and the Planning Commission also
used
that as a model along with the additional stipulation of the
limited
hours.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, does that include all aspects like
signage and --
MR. REISCHL: Yes. The --
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: -- anything else?
MR. REISCHL: -- signage is included as part of their
resolution,
yes.
COHHISSIONER HAC'KIE: Is the -- are the signage regulations
for
this petition application -- I tell you, I think I'm going the same
places as you, Commissioner Norris.
I wish that you could take the resolution for Everglades
Private
because it is the most analogous, and the proposed proposal here
and
just tell me where they differ.
An obvious one I can see is the boats per square mile.
MR. REISCHL: Yes. That's different.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: But if there are other differences, I'd
like to know.
MR. REISCHL: The other difference -- well, technically, there
is
a difference with the bird survey requirements and Everglades
Private
that has come to you. You have directed us to remove it, but the
amended resolution has not come back to you yet, so technically
that's
still part of their resolution although --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: That's not --
MR. REISCHL: -- functionally it doesn't count.
The other would be the hours of operation are not limited on
Everglades Private Airboat Tours but they are limited by the EAB
resolution -- stipulation placed in this resolution.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Other than that, they're identical.
MR. REISCHL: The wording may be different but I believe the
intent of all the stipulations are the same.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I still want to be lowering our
standards
from '92 -- MR. REISCHL: That was not the intent of staff at all. If
there
were any changes in wording, it was just due to legal review and
changes in departments, things like that -- CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: You did --
MR. REISCHL: -- from project review to Planning Services,
things
like that.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: You had mentioned the bird surveys. One of
the reasons that we're -- we're directing that they be, I guess
eliminated, I remember us doing something in that vein. Was, one,
that they had done them, and, two, that they didn't mean a whole
hell
of a lot.
I'm not sure whether we came to that conclusion because they'd
done them or we came to that conclusion because, you know -- so, in
other words, should -- should Mr. Hooks, if he's approved, be
required
to at least do them for a set period of time to determine whether
or
you
and
not there are impacts?
At least, I remember from the House's operation down there,
know, you looked at them and thought, well, you know, this -- this
it
on
a dollar will get you a beer. I mean it just wasn't very valuable.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Not a very good beer
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah. Well --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Sorry.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: But it was costly to the people to have
done.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Right.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: You know.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: So, I'm just -- again, I'm just looking for
the same rules from one person to the next. If you made the folks
that petition do it for a couple years, I just don't -- I don't
know.
Maybe you or Mr. Lenberger could tell me.
Are they not very fruitful because of the nature of them or
are
got
they not very fruitful because there was no impact?
MR. REISCHL: And the other factor was the staff review. Did
staff devote the time and did we have the expertise to have a base
line study and then --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Right.
MR. REISCHL: -- be every six months after that?
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Only government would say you've
to do something because somebody else did it and not have any other
particular reason why. So, I mean, unless we can give a reason, I
don't think we should put that burden on them.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, that's what I'm asking.
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'm trying to --
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: And I don't even know why --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'm trying to determine why --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I don't hear one forthcoming.
MR. MULHERE: I'm sorry. Bob Mulhere, Current Planning
Manager.
The EAB's recommendation to remove that stipulation was that
they
were not able to correlate any information from those studies and
it
was their same feeling that this would be the same situation here,
that there would be no ability to correlate from those bird studies
that the -- any impacts were associated directly to the airboat
use.
And, therefore, they didn't --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: What study to study --
MR. MULHERE: -- they didn't place that stipulation on this
for
are
that reason.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Thank you.
Further questions of staff?
Commissioner Mac'Kie?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Just one more. And maybe just -- if
you'll come over while they're -- and show me what the boundaries
on this map. I don't understand. Is this --
HR. REISCHL: 41 and then the yellow line.
is
it
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Okay. But that's a trail, right?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: No.
MR. REISCHL: No. That's the property. It's the same color.
The trail is in blue.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That's a line drawn there.
MR. REISCHL: The trail is in blue and the property boundary
also in blue.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Okay. That's what -- I was confused if
that outline was a huge trail.
MR. REISCHL: No.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That might have been intentionally cut if
were.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: It might have been.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Any further questions of staff?
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Thank you, no.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Let's go to the petitioner.
MR. PIRES: If I may, Commissioner Hancock --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Pires.
MR. PIRES: -- members of the board, Anthony Pires, Jr. of the
law firm Woodward, Pires and Lombardo.
We have here today Beau Keene who's the engineer, the
applicant's
representative on this application, and Jerry Hooks, one of the
owners
of the property.
There's been extensive discussion, I understand the concerns
of
the board, about whether there are any differences in approvals
that
you all provided in the past for other airboat operators versus
this
One.
There is one that was probably inadvertently left off by
staff,
one or two, from the everboats -- Everglades Airboat Tours.
Mr. and Mrs. House on that application, reading from the
resolution, they had one additional condition, and like in normal,
one
year from the date of the conditional use approval, the Board of
County Commissioners will reevaluate this conditional use and have
found it to be abusive or detrimental to the environment and no
steps
were taken to correct their problem, then the BCC has the ability
to
eliminate the conditional use.
That probably was inadvertently left off by staff. I wanted
the
board to be aware of that. I didn't know if the board wants to
make
that as a condition of this approval. And I've discussed that with
my
client and they're amenable to that similar kind of condition.
One other item that they had with the Everglades Airboat Tours
where they had to submit a wetland mitigation and enhancement plan.
to
41
It
This site is unique and I think -- and Mr. Hooks will testify
that effect, that this site, the borrow pit that's on this site, as
can been seen in the aerial photograph, was utilized to build U.S.
or part of the U.S. 41 activity years and years ago.
The pad that's been -- there was a pad for a service station.
was there years, years and years ago. There are no existing
physical
construction activities that will take place as far as filling in
of
wetlands or any other activity, so we don't think that's
appropriate.
But I wanted the board to be aware of those two additional
restrictions and conditions in the Everglades Airboat Tours'
approval.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: But, Mr. Pires --
MR. PIRES: Yes.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: -- based on your review, those are the
only two differences between your clients and Everglades Private
were
those two?
MR. PIRES: Well, there's two more. The -- the bird count
that
the board has talked about extensively that was -- COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Yes, sir.
MR. PIRES: -- a dollar a beer, I can get you a beer, I guess
And
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay.
MR. PIRES: -- and my client has had imposed upon him and is
agreeable to it, to one additional restriction that is not on
Everglades Airboat Tours.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Time.
MR. PIRES: Everglades Airboat Tours can't operate at night.
my understanding is they do operate at night or have that
opportunity.
This operation is limited to one hour after sunrise to one
hour
before sunset.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: That's because of the campers at
Collier-Seminole don't want to be listening to it, I assume.
MR. PIRES: I'm not sure if that was the rationale or just
because the -- the staff made the recommendation and EAB and CCPC
did.
So, that's one additional restriction on this site. Other than
that,
there are no additional. I have a copy of the resolution if you
wish
to see that.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: No. I can --
MR. PIRES: I think another important issue decided was there
was
a discussion about size. It could be corrected by Commissioner
Hancock, to my understanding, is that the Bobby Weeks Airboat
operation is on about 60 acres that he owns. The rest of it is
public
land. And he currently has -- I believe Mr. Rooks will testify
that
Mr. Weeks has four airboats on the -- on the 60 areas that he owns.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is that Gators one that's on open --
MR. PIRES: Right.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: -- water?
MR. PIRES: No. It does go in open water but --
CHAI~ HANCOCK: The reason Mr. Pires says I will attest to
it
in
the
or not is because I did his conditional use application when he was
the private sector.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: But open water is an entirely different
story from what we're talking about here.
MR. PIRES: Yeah. I think it just gives some -- some sense of
the perspective of the acreage involved.
I'd like to make -- I think if we could just make part of the
record the Planning Commission minutes and the resolution involving
Everglades Airboat Tours, Resolution 93-129, if I can hand them to
clerk or County Attorney, and the CCPC minutes as well as the staff
report for the EAB where the staff recommended approval.
One other issue about the birds. I think the bird survey that
has been done, which one has been performed for this site, showed
that
birds weren't really utilizing. They were flying over it or
through
it.
If -- with your indulgence, if you have any questions, I'm
available. Mr. Hooks, if we could then have him provide some
evidence
and testimony, I think it would be helpful for the board to
understand
the history of the site.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Let me ask.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Questions for Mr. Pires?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Pires, you don't have any
objection to the fact that there's a couple of extra restrictions
on
Mr.
yours as far as the hours and so on? MR. PIRES: No, sir, not at all.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: And you've offered the additional
restriction as far as if a year from now we find there's flagrant
abuse, we could revoke the conditional --
MR. PIRES: Just like the ones from Everglades Airboat Tours,
yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you.
MR. REISCHL: Mr. Chairman, if I could comment on two of those
things. The expiration of the conditional use through Steve's --
Lenberger's research has shown that that was in connection with the
bird survey. That's why it was not included in -- in this.
CHAI~ HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. REISCHL: And the hours, if I recall from the EAB, the
hours
were limited due to bird roosting, so that was considered to be
after
the bird roosting hours and, therefore, the noise wouldn't bother
them
as much.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The reason I'd like to leave the --
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Especially the campers.
MR. REISCHL: And the campers.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The reason I'd like to leave the expiration
in
there is because this property is bordered on two sides or, you
know,
by preserve areas. Probably a good idea just to make sure that
the,
you know, operators are on their toes and don't stray from that.
Because if they do, we'll get those reports and may have an effect
on
I'm
the zoning, so I'd like to leave it in for that purpose.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Me, too.
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: It's admirable --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Next speaker.
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- they brought it up.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yes. And then likewise, Mr. Pires, you --
like to thank you for bringing that up. MR. PIRES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. HOOKS: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm Jerry Hooks. I own the
property in question.
I have some photos I'd like to enter in that I took myself
yesterday afternoon so you can actually see what's going on besides
the big map out there. You can see the existing trail, the type of
boats that we have.
The property in question has been owned by the family, which
a member of. My great grandfather and other men owned it. I
acquired
all the property from other family members a little over two years
ago.
The property in question at one time in the late forties and
early -- later thirties, early forties, there was a little service
station and a little camp, fish camp situation, sitting on the
borrow
pit at one time out there.
Our idea behind Wind Dancer Airboats is to keep the Everglades
as
not
it
natural as we possibly can. We are using existing trails that I
myself have been riding on for approximately 35 years. They have
changed one bit.
We have the original surveys of the property from 1935 and the
property is still in the same condition as it was at that time and
will be maintained that way.
As far as signage and everything on our property, we will only
have one sign. There will be no signs or no buildings, no boats,
just
one sign on the front. That's it. We're trying to keep it as
natural
as possible.
I hope that you all see it our way. If you have any questions
you'd like to ask --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Hooks, that sign you're going to have,
that will conform to county sign regulations. It will -- since
this
is a conditional use, it doesn't qualify under the commercial
signage.
MR. REISCHL: Correct. It's agricultural.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That means he can't have a pole sign. Is
that
correct?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Has he got enough frontage for a pole
sign?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah. He's got along 41.
MR. REISCHL: He's got -- he has the frontage, yeah.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Plenty of frontage, yeah.
MR. HOOKS: And I have the engineering drawings for it, too.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. REISCHL: Yes. That would qualify for a pole sign.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And that's your intention, to have a
pole
sign?
MR. HOOKS: One pole sign only. That's all there will be.
MR. REISCHL: As you can see from the site plan, the U.S. 41
right-of-way extends way off the pavement, so his sign would be
located --
MR. HOOKS: I would be --
MR. REISCHL: -- well off the pavement.
MR. HOOKS: -- from the center line of the highway, 175 feet
from
the road.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. That's what, a 25-foot height on
pole
signs? Twenty foot or 25?
MR. HOOKS: Twenty foot.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK:
it
Twenty foot, I thought. Yeah, we lowered
from 25 to 20 last year.
Okay. Any other questions for Hr. Hooks?
Seeing none, let's go on to public speakers.
Thank you, Mr. Hooks.
MR. HOOKS: Thank you.
MR. FERNANDEZ: We have two public speakers. The first is
Tami
House and then Michael Simonik.
MS. HOUSE: Hi. For the record, my name is Tami House. I'm
with
Everglades Private Airboat Tours.
I'm not in a -- I don't object to the petition as -- as coming
in
as another business. Hy major concerns are, number one, the
density
in the boats.
They -- Mr. Hancock, you said it's the trails as opposed to
breaking new trails or whatever.
Had our company utilized all the trails that were existing
when
we acquired the piece of land, we could have run three or four
times
as many trails. We abandoned a -- a good majority of those trails
so
that they could regenerate. And we're limited to the six boats to
the
-- you know, by the County Commissioners five years ago, and I
believe
in that, you know, some sort of precedence has been set. And to
allow, you know, two and a half times that density, I believe, is -
It
is pushing it.
As far as the mitigation goes with DEP, ours was also a borrow
pit in a -- in a land area where they had used excavation to -- to
to build 41. Host of the mitigation we did with DEP was because of
the airboat trails.
And I also believe that the 60 acres that is involved in the
Gator Airboat Tours is all uplands. It's all the railroad grade.
really doesn't come into play with the -- with the wetlands, I
don't
believe. They do run navigable waters.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I have a question for you.
MS. HOUSE: Sure.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: You abandoned some trails so that they
could -- did they revegetate? MS. HOUSE: Sure.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Did they close in?
MS. HOUSE: Uh-huh.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Well, that goes exactly against what --
what our staff just said to us, is that we couldn't reasonably
expect
any of these trails to grow back up.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That's not what Mr. Lenberger said.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Maybe I misunderstood.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That was in response to my question about
whether some of these were -- were not created as trails but
tributaries. And he also said --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And my question was --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah. He set that, as I recall, that, you
know, we can't tell how long it's going to take.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I see.
MR. LENBERGER: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Not that they --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- wouldn't, but we don't -- we can't tell
you
what would happen if they're aren't used. I mean --
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Okay. I appreciate that. I'm sorry.
misunderstood.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: If you got one -- you know, if you got one
saw
_
to
with, you know, good cypress hedge on each side and not a lot of
grass, I mean, it's -- it's going to take awhile to come back and -
you know, or even something in mangrove. I mean, that's not going
come back.
vegetation.
why
for
Those are generally natural, so it depends on
MS. HOUSE: Oh, definitely. It -- it -- you know, some of the
trails took longer to regenerate. CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Right.
And I believe on this one, Mr. Reischl, are all trails being
used? Are all the existing trails on the property being used?
MR. REISCHL: As far as I know. I mean, Mr. Keene can answer
that. No. I'm seeing --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. I didn't --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Show us which ones are not. I'm real
interested in seeing that.
MR. REISCHL: It's hard to tell the trails on there. That's
they were highlighted on the map.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Anyone have any further questions
Miss House?
MS. HOUSE: I just wanted to add one thing.
And, Commissioner Mac'Kie, you are right. They did also
mention
the campers of the Collier-Seminole State Park.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I thought so. Being one --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: -- I tend to notice.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Next speaker?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Next speaker is Michael Simonik.
MR. SIMONIK: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, commissioners.
here on -- my name is Michael Simonik. I'm the Director of
Environmental Policy of the Conservancy of Southwest Florida.
I'm here speaking on behalf of our 5,600 family members which
equates to over 10,000 people in this county and our 32 member
board.
If I may, I'd like to first off correct the correction from
staff. Something was corrected to say that the letter was not from
Jim Krakowski, the refuge matter of the Ten Thousand Islands
National
Wildlife Refuge, but it was from Seminole-Collier on it. Maybe
there
was another letter, but this one is from Jim Krakowski --
MR. REISCHL: Right.
MR. SIHONIK: -- asking for the 50 yards.
MR. REISCHL: The letter is from Mr. Krakowski but the speaker
at
the EAB was from Collier-Seminole.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So, the objection stands from the Ten
Thousand Islands.
MR. SIHONIK: Ten Thousand Islands.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: What -- what --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Could I see the letter, Michael?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- objection? I don't -- I --
MR. REISCHL: No activity --
MR. SIMONIK: But I'm not going to make a point of that.
just
wanted to correct the correction.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, wait. You call something an
objection.
me
any
We understood that they had a comment saying not within 50 yards of
the -- the boundary of their -- of the Ten Thousand Islands Refuge.
Is that correct?
MR. REISCHL: Correct. In their letter.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: What they say is, thank you for giving
the opportunity to comment. I -- because the venture may have an
impact on the refuge, I would suggest the following conditions, and
then you can read what they are.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: But they don't object.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: But they're -- this doesn't really hold
weight necessarily. It's just their request and if -- if it's
encroached on in two spots, that has always been encroached upon.
MR. HULHERE: For the record, Bob Hulhere. I just -- two
things.
I spoke personally with Mr. Krakowski before we received that
letter.
He didn't indicate that was a letter of objection. He indicated he
appreciated the opportunity to review and he had some comments to
make.
Secondly, the correction had nothing to do with that letter
that
we made.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Right.
MR. HULHERE: The correction was that the individual who in
person showed up at the EAB meeting was from Collier-Seminole State
Park and not Mr. Krakowski. So, we don't need to be corrected on
that.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Just to clarify.
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: The clarification.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: We don't have any objection then
from
to
of
Hr. Krakowski.
HR. REISCHL: No objection. It was a suggestion.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Thank you.
MR. REISCHL: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Please continue, Mr. Simonik.
MR. SIHONIK: Thank you for clarifying. And we do not object
the breaching of the 50 yards in those two points either. That's
point.
Another thing I wanted to say before I get yelled at from the
peanut gallery over here, as I usually do, we are not apposed to
airboat operations in the area of critical state concern, which all
the airboat operations are in. We support ECHO tourism when it's
compatible with the -- with the resource.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Simonik, I have to interrupt you for a
second. Mr. Agoston will be the first to tell you that I don't
allow
him or try not to allow him or anyone else to be critical of
individuals present, so your reference to individuals in this
audience
as a peanut gallery is demeaning and inappropriate. Thank you. Please continue.
MR. SIMONIK: One thing that we do have -- we do have a
concern
with is the inequality of the stipulations from one operation to
the
next.
Five years ago, there were stipulations made for Everglades
Airboat Tours. And we were comfortable with those from the
Conservancy and we did not object to that and that set standards,
standards for the density of the -- of the usage of airboats on an
acreage basis.
How many acres per airboat should we allow? That's analogous
to
density and housing. I kind of think that's analogous to density.
And we allowed in the stipulations five years ago to allow one
boat on 170 acres. Now, we're going to change that and allow one
boat
on 48.5 acres, which is about three and a half times or more the
amount of density of airboats running in a particular area.
And I would add that it's even more acreage in the Everglades
airboat operation because the Houses have leased another 950 acres
to
the south to buffer not just 50 yards. They leased practically two
whole sections of land, two square miles of land below them to
buffer
the Ten Thousand Islands in Everglades National Park, and also they
leased six more sections above U.S. 41. So, we have 3500 acres
that
are leased by one operation using only six airboats.
My point of it being an inequity amongst the two is that if we
change the rules and allow higher density, the second airboat
operation may be more competitive than the first. We may see the
Everglades Airboat business close down and the Collier Enterprises
that owns the land will lease to other people.
And I can guarantee you that they are not going to lease to
other
operator like Tami House and their operation who is using six
airboats
on 3500 acres. And we know now that it's precedent that there will
be
one boat on 50 acres. So, it will go from six to 70 if -- if it's
not
a competitive and we don't have the same rules for both.
point.
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE:
legal
precedent here; yes or no? MR. WEIGEL: No.
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: You mean, so automatically --
That's my
Mr. Weigel, are we setting any
the
MR. SIMONIK: So, then we can --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- they would be allowed to have 70 boats
next day?
MR. SIMONIK: We can have one airboat on one acre.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: That's true.
MR. SIHONIK: That's right. We have a concern with that
because
that we believe would impact the resources out there in the area of
critical state concern. We have a real problem with that many
boats
and that much flexibility in this issue.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Well, if that public hearing ever
comes up, that would be the right time to approach that, but for us
to
make a decision on this gentleman's effort based on a hypothetical
impact of the free market economy and what might or might not
happen
to the Houses and then what might or might not happen from the
Colliers really isn't fair to Mr. Hooks.
MR. SIHONIK: Okay. Let me make another point then. We do --
was glad --
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I think he's out of time.
MR. SIHONIK: -- that Mr. Pires -- I was glad that Mr. Pires
offered the one-year evaluation but we'd like to know how that's
going
to be evaluated. Is that going to be with a bird survey or will we
just come back here and, you know, the operator will say, well,
everything is fine, let us continue?
So, I'd like some answer to how it's going to be evaluated.
SO,
I was glad to hear that. That was one of the things I was coming
back
with that staff didn't bring up is a difference in the two. Let's
evaluate what's going on out there. And --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Mr. Simonik, can I ask you a question?
MR. SIHONIK: Yes.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I -- not being trained as you are, I
don't
know.
impacts
way
the
tOO
What is an appropriate way to measure the environmental
of an operation such as this? Is a bird count, a bird study, the
-- how can I measure? How would I know if they're having negative
impacts on the environment above what they currently have affected?
MR. SIHONIK: I think that's probably the best way is to do
bird survey out there. The latest survey said that the birds were
just flying over. If they stopped flying over, maybe that's a
concern, if they don't go anywhere near the area because there's
many boats running around, maybe using their certain trails and
they're going to use less trails, maybe they'll come back.
We can learn lots of things for other operations in the
future.
I know the commission doesn't like monitoring of our environment
resources but that's how we learn things along the way and what
isn't
impact -- CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: You left out the useless monitoring of our
environmental resources.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So, this could be a useful monitoring
is
what I think we're saying.
MR. SIMONIK: I think most monitoring is useful --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I know.
MR. SIHONIK: -- of our environmental resources so we can
determine base line and impacts in the future.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Berry?
COHMISSIONER BERRY: I just have a question. Unless we do a
bird
survey now, what good is it to turn around and do one after a year
of
operation? What are you going to compare it to?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Actually, they did do one now.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: They did?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Mr. Pires said that.
MR. SIHONIK: They have done one.
MR. REISCHL: There was one submitted with conditional use.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Well, the only way you can make that
comparison even relatively make some sense, you would have to have
the
same conditions on the same day to make it work.
There's a ton of things, Michael, that would enter in there if
the birds are, quote, merely flying over on the day if they do it a
year later to the day. If it's a rainy day and the birds are
roosting
and there's no birds sighted, then somebody could end up saying,
gee,
they've had a real impact on the environment out here when in -- in
reality that's not the case at all. I mean --
MR. SIHONIK: It's very difficult to say 100 percent guarantee
that cause and effect on monitoring of our environmental resources,
but it gives you something. It's better than nothing.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Michael, that gives you nothing.
MR. SIHONIK: I would disagree as a wildlife biologist.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Gives you nothing useful.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Well -- yeah, but where does common sense
come in here, Michael? I mean there's a lot of other outside
factors
that can have, you know, certainly some impact on this.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I.e., destruction of northern nesting
habitat?
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Well, yeah.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Norris.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, a couple of comments.
One is every time I've been down there, you have to chase the
birds off the airboats to get in them anyway.
The second one is that -- that purely numbers of airboats per
acre doesn't tell you the story. It's really how many times an
airboat might pass a particular point.
Now, if you had -- if you had six airboats and they were going
are
out
really fast compared -- on a big piece of property compared to a
lesser number of airboats going a lot slower, the impacts could be
exactly the same if it was relative.
So, you know, don't get too hung up on just raw numbers of
airboats because that doesn't tell the whole story. It's how much
they in use and how many laps do they take.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Most of these courses are a one-hour trip
and back, as I understand it. And that's -- that's a fairly even
comparison.
The -- does anyone have any questions of Mr. Simonik?
MR. SIMONIK: Can I say one last thing? We recommend that go
with EAB with only the three airboats rather than the four.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Simonik.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Just a minute.
Mr. Simonik, would you object to the Houses being allowed to
increase their number of airboats based on the acreage that they
have?
question.
MR. SIMONIK: I think they may try. Once this happens today -
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I don't think that was the
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That's not the question.
MR. SIMONIK: They may come back.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: It's not what I asked you. I asked would
you object?
MR. SIMONIK: Yes. Yes, we would. Even though I like the
operation right now, we're very comfortable with the operation
right
now, but if it comes back for whatever you need for a conditional
use
variance, we would object to it because right now it's working just
fine. And if they are able to sustain their business with all the
environment stipulations on them and run a good business and still
stay in business, that says something.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I have one more question for Mr.
Simonik
to just -- well, because I'm looking for science as a basis for
decision making.
Is there -- I understand Commissioner Norris' point and I
think
it's a really good one, that I don't care if they own 500 boats, if
they -- you know, the question is how often are they going to be
lapping around those trails?
And I hear you saying that three is better than four, but what
really matters is what trails are going to be used and how often.
I right about that? Isn't that what has the environmental effect?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Another way to ask that would be if
three boats leave Cleveland at three o'clock --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah. That is another way to ask it.
MR. SIMONIK: And that's --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: But shouldn't these standards --
MR. SIMONIK: That's -- that's the maximum -- that's the
maximum
number running at any one time.
have a
in
of
And if you have 500, you could
convoy of 500 running around in a circle. If you only have three,
that's the most that can happen in that hour's period.
MR. REISCHL: That's true. It's not the number of boats that
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Are available.
MR. REISCHL: -- are available at the operation on both
Everglades and Wind Dancer. It's the number of boats on the trails
operation at one time.
COHHISSIONER HAC'KIE: Then the only other thing I'm going to
want to know, and it's not for Mr. Simonik, thank you, is --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Simonik.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: -- which of -- if they're not using all
these trails, highlight the ones that they are using and tell me
which
ones they're not using.
MR. REISCHL: The ones that are highlighted in blue lines --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: It's the dark line.
MR. REISCHL: -- are the ones that they're --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: It's a single, connecting, dark line.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I see that, but there's hardly anything
here that's not being used. I mean why are you saying that they're
not -- maybe that is a trail they're not using? Maybe that? It
looks
to me like they're using --
MR. REISCHL: That's why they're highlighted because --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: -- every dad-gum trail on there is what
guess I'm saying.
MR. REISCHL: The trail is really hard to tell on the aerial.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think one of the significant -- and, I'm
sorry.
Do we have additional speakers, Mr. Fernandez?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No, there is not.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Close the public hearing.
One of the significant differences here, and it's one that I
kind
of wrestle with, is the fact that Mr. Hooks and his family own this
property. They're not leasing it to somebody for a business
venture.
They own it.
And I think there's an issue here of what is a minimum viable
use
for this property. You're not going to see residential
development.
It's not permitted. You're not going to see something that
requires
septic tanks and drain fields and whatnot because the likelihood of
getting a permit for that is pretty thin, all except on a minimal
list
basis.
What he's talking about using the property for is something
that
recreationally has been used for since airboats were invented in my
guess. So, I think we do have a question of property rights here
versus someone who's leasing property for a commercial purpose.
That
is a difference. I think it -- it should play in the decision.
Are we setting a precedent? This is my favorite argument of
people who want to oppose something. If you let this person do it,
then you are, de facto, approving everything else similar to this.
And, again, it's insulting that someone would have the audacity to
ignore this board's ability to look at individual circumstances on
petition and make a reasonable decision.
That kind of statement that you are setting a precedent is
ridiculous and it seems to be consistent, unfortunately, in this
case.
And I just -- I find it offensive.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Do you have an opinion on it?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: A little one.
I like the one-year evaluation criteria. If a bird count has
already been done, I'd like to see one done in a year. And if
there
is a marked difference that is not biologically explainable, then
we
-- then let's take a look at it. If there isn't, then fine, but I
think that's -- that's a good idea.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: On that point, can I ask you a
question because I -- it seems to me our staff stood here 28
minutes
ago and said, you saw no use, you didn't derive any benefit from
bird
studies in the past.
And, again, I go back to the why are we doing it. If our own
staff can't tell us what benefit we can possibly derive, why would
we
the
cause somebody to do it?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think that --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: It seems like we're just placating
someone else who had to go through it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, the requirement was the Houses do one
like every year ad infinitum. I mean, it kept going on and on --
MR. REISCHL: For five years.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- for five years. And that was a little
ridiculous. I mean, it's not going to -- I think the one-year mark
makes some sense and Mr. Pires offered that anyway. And to have an
element of reconsideration, you know, I'd like to at least --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Could I ask your staff what we can
expect to get for a tangible response from them?
MR. REISCHL: Well, like if I can make an extrapolation from
one that the Houses submitted, a list of species, numbers of birds
that were spotted on -- on the days the surveys were done.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: What you're talking -- I mean, I
don't
mean that. I mean, what's -- then what's the result of that? What
you told us 29 minutes ago was that that information really was
essentially useless. I mean, it wasn't serving a purpose.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: But as an environmentalist --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'm asking staff, thank's.
If -- if --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Mr. Constantine, I'm just saying you
might
want to get environmental staff to answer the question.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Right. And that's --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Then they would qualify.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- what I am asking our staff to
do.
And what they stood up and said to me or said to us a half hour, at
least how I understood it, was that it wasn't serving a great
purpose.
Now, if you can correct that now, great. This is an
opportunity,
but I don't want to require someone to spend money and do this if
it
serves no purpose. It's only governmental would say, well,
somebody
else had to do it so we'll make them do it, too. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: That's not the reason.
MR. LENBERGER: For the record, Stephen Lenberger.
I don't believe if they did a bird survey we'd get any useful
information out of it. They did a wildlife survey for this
project.
Very few of the birds were utilized in the project at the time of
the
survey.
My guess is that the birds are coming into the site feeding,
but
on
there are no roosting areas on this property.
The House property was a little different. They had roosting
areas as well as feeding areas on the property that were identified
the aerial that they submitted which identified their trails.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: So, you said you don't believe
we'll
get any useful information.
MR. LENBERGER: That's correct.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That -- and you gave me the distinction,
the
how
differences between feeding and roosting. If -- you know, if there
are roosting areas that they use, then you can look at, you know,
-- you know, how that's affected. If there aren't, then it's a --
it's just a migratory process whether they feed there that day or
not,
so you gave me the reason. And with that, I'm comfortable not --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Can I just ask --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- not requiring it.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I'm sorry. I don't know -- I haven't
met
you before. Are you with the environmental staff?
MR. LENBERGER: Yes, I am.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: You've only been there what, six years?
MR. LENBERGER: Four years.
of
so
the
CHAI~ HANCOCK: Four years. Okay.
COHHISSIONER HAC'KIE: You never come to the meetings. Mr.
Lorenz is usually here, but I'm glad to -- to know you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Hac'Kie would like to see more
you, Hr. Lenberger, so please attend more meetings.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I'm not sure I agree with his opinion,
maybe not.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The other thing that I do want to say is I
I tend to agree with EAB on the three-vote limit. I'm not as
interested in its size. It could be 18 feet, it could be 16 foot.
But just, again, trying to be consistent with what was done with
Houses' property only limiting to six boats.
There is a point at which it becomes not profitable to even
run a
business like this, and I think if you start going with one or two
boats, you're not -- you can't run a business. Three is a minimum
in
my opinion, so -- but I do agree with the EAB on the three boats
also.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I ask our staff, what was the
discussion with the Planning Commission that boosted that back to
four?
MR. REISCHL: Mr. Hook -- it was Mr. Hooks' request. And the
majority of the Planning Commission agreed with his request. The
chairman disagreed and one member did not agree with the petition
at
can
all.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Again, can I ask? Haybe Hr. Hooks
offer some assistance here, but I'm trying to understand what --
what
the benefit of --
MR. HOOKS: The reason for the request for the four smaller
boats, true, when you go from 16 to 18 feet, you're only talking
tWO
at
foot in length. But when you go to ten passenger, you're looking
another two and a half foot in width.
The boats that we have now at present are designed and they're
built to run in the trails that exist on the property. We don't
want
to widen the trails any with wider boats.
That's our reason behind it. We're not trying to run a full
commercial operation and be the world king airboaters. We're
trying
to make it as presentable as possible to the public as nature has
put
it.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I guess, Commissioner Hancock, I'm
just looking for what is the impact? What's the benefit of doing
the
three versus four?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'm just -- again, I'm just trying to seek
some level of equity between what the Houses were limited to versus
another property. That -- that's the only reason, to be honest
with
you. That's -- that's where I'm coming from.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I guess -- I mean, I appreciate the
Houses wanting to do what they want to do, but I -- just looking at
this petition, I don't see any reason why four doesn't work and I -
and from the perspective of how -- how this is supposed to work
anyway, we measure each petition on its merits and -- and not
necessarily what's happened to the rest of the world, or as Mr.
Simonik wanted us to do, what's going -- what could hypothetically
happen in the economic world six years from now.
So, it just seems to me looking -- and maybe we just differ on
that, but it seems to me looking at the specifics of this
particular
case, there's no harm in the four.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Further comments or questions?
Seeing none, the public hearing is closed.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to go ahead
and make a motion we approve the item, including the -- I'm sorry -
- I
thought you did close it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I just did.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Including the one-year evaluation
criteria that Mr. Pires has offered, including all other criteria,
including the extra restriction on hours of operation and with four
units out at any one time.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Are you deleting the bird survey?
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Yeah. No bird survey.
MR. REISCHL: So, could I get a clarification? It's just a --
expiration after one year, if there's been a deterioration of
conditions, but there's no bird survey linked into that.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Correct.
MR. REISCHL: Okay.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: If there's some egregious
violation,
that gives us an opportunity to go back.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Due to the narrow width of the boats that
Mr.
Hooks -- and that makes sense in the fact that there are no
rookeries
on the site -- I think there's the less potential environmental
impact
here. In other words, I don't want to kill it over one vote.
Again, there's not much this land can be used for other than
something like this, so I don't, you know, want -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- to kill it, so -- we have a motion and
we
have a second.
Is there a discussion on the motion?
Seeing none, all those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion carries four-one.
Mr. Reischl, petitioners, thank you very much.
of
(Recess was taken.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK:
Commissioners meeting.
Good afternoon.
I'll reconvene the Board
Item #13A3
RESOLUTION 97-460, REGARDING PETITION V-97-13, DENNIS CRONIN OF
BOND,
SCHOENECK & KING, P.A., REPRESENTING W. FRANKLIN & CAROL B. ELLIS
REQUESTING AN AFTER-THE-FACT VARIANCE OF 2.39 FEET FROM THE
REQUIRED
SIDE YARD SETBACK OF 7.5 FEET TO 5.11 FEET FORAN EXISTING POOL
SCREEN
ENCLOSURE LOCATED AT 710 HOLLYBRIAR LANE IN PELICAN BAY - ADOPTED
We are to Item 13.A.3 on the agenda. This is Petition
V-97-13, Dennis Cronin of Bond, Schoeneck & King, P.A.,
representing
Franklin and Carol Ellis, requesting an after-the-fact variance.
This
is a quasi-judicial matter. Would all members of our staff,
members
of the petitioners' team and anyone here to speak on this item,
please
stand and raise your right hand.
Madam Court Reporter, would you please swear them in?
(Witnesses sworn.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Badamtchian, good afternoon.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: Good afternoon, Commissioners.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: I have no disclosure to make on this
item,
having had no conversations with anyone. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I haven't, either.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Likewise, I haven't talked to anybody about
this.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: No.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: No, no disclosure to make.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Mr. Badamtchian?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: Dennis Cronin represents Mr. and Mrs. Ellis,
who are requesting an after-the-fact variance of 2.39 feet from the
side yard setback of 7.5 feet, to 5.11 feet, for an existing pool
enclosure.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Can I just interrupt? I mean, it's not
their fault. It's not their problem, it's not -- it's their
problem,
but it's not their fault. They didn't build it, they didn't cause
it.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: No, they did not build it.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Nobody objects.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: They bought the property this year and the
screen enclosure was built in 1989, which was built without a
building
permit. However, the applicant did not cause the encroachment.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: No objection by any neighbors?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: No.
WCI
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Somebody just finally got a good enough
lawyer to find it on the survey as the sale was going through; am I
right?
MR. CRONIN: I'll take that as a compliment.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: You are so complimented.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Are you guys done with love pats?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I have some concern here for this one.
wrote them a letter and told them not to build it.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: They wrote that letter to Borelli
Construction or to somebody.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Yes.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: They wrote this letter to Borelli
Construction,
correct. And the Borelli Construction did not pull a building
permit
to build it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: What can we -- Borelli Construction
obviously
violated several county codes by not doing that.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: I just did the complaint to Contractor
Licensing, and I checked the Borelli Construction file. We have no
complaints.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think we do now.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: Now we have one, yes. This is the first
one.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, they're one of the best, most
reputable builders in the county. They do very high end, very -- I
mean, they are one of the best builders in the county. I'm shocked
by
this.
build something?
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Let me continue asking my question.
Badamtchian, the portion of this structure that's within the
setback
that encroaches, what is that? It's really not clear on our
drawing
here exactly what it is.
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: It's the enclosure for the pool that's
within
the setback.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: What's on the ground?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: There is a low wall. The wall up to four
feet
the
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: So they're aware that you need a permit to
Mr.
in height is permitted within the setback. But what they did, they
built the enclosure over it.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: The wall is permitted?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: The wall is permitted. It's just the screen
above it.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: We really don't have a clear drawing of
what's going on here. Do you have something in more detail?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: No, I'm afraid not. That's the only thing I
have, is the survey.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: What would be the net effect of moving
screened portion back out of the setback?
MR. BADAMTCHIAN: I don't think it's going to cause any
hardship
or anything. There is enough room to move it back. The only thing
is, it may cause financial hardship to tear it down and rebuild it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Also it becomes somewhat impractical, it
looks, because it would then actually contact a little jut on the
house pad there. What it's going to do is reduce the size of the
useable patio there to a real small size. It can be done. But I
think what would probably happen is it would just simply be
removed.
I doubt that they would replace it, because it's such a small area.
The fact that there is an existing hard structure within the
setback that is permitted, is a little bit of a mitigating
circumstance. It's not as if the wall was built for the purpose of
supporting the screen enclosure. The wall was built, period and
the
not
the
screen enclosure was attached to it.
I'm more interested in going after Borelli Construction for
pulling the permit for it, personally. I mean, that seems to be
most appropriate thing here. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Questions of staff?
MR. CRONIN: If you have any questions. I think you made the
point, Mr. Chairman. For the record, Dennis Cronin, Bond,
Schoeneck
and King. Mr. and Mrs. Ellis have only owned the property since
April
of 1997.
As you pointed out, the construction occurred in 1989. It was
two owners prior to Mr. and Mrs. Ellis, and the person, or the
trust
Mr. and Mrs. Ellis purchased the property from in 1997, acquired
the
property in 1993, and they were a cash buyer at that point in time.
No survey was performed and it wasn't caught at that point.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Further questions of Mr. Cronin?
Seeing none, any speakers, Mr. Fernandez? MR. FERNANDEZ: None.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Close the public hearing.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Motion to approve the variance.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: There's a motion and second. Discussion on
the motion?
Seeing none, all those in favor signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response)
Motion carries five-zero.
MR. CRONIN: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Cronin.
Item #13A4
THE
IN
RESOLUTION 97-461, REGARDING PETITION V-97-10, MR. KELLY HUFF
REQUESTING AN AFTER-THE-FACT VARIANCE OF 10 FEET 5 INCHES FROM THE
REQUIRED 30 FOOT SIDE YARD SETBACK TO 19 FEET 7 INCHES FOR PROPERTY
LOCATED ON THE NORTH SIDE OF llTH AVENUE S.W., FURTHER DESCRIBED AS
EAST 180 FEET OF TRACT 53, UNIT 26, GOLDEN GATE ESTATES SUBDIVISION
SECTION 15, TOWNSHIP 49 SOUTH, RANGE 26 EAST - ADOPTED
Next, Item 13(a)4, Petition V-97-10. Mr. Kelly Huff
requesting an after-the-fact variance of 10 feet 5 inches from the
30-foot required side yard setback.
Again, this is quasi-judicial. Members of our staff, Mr.
Huff,
and anyone here to speak on this item, please stand and raise your
right hand.
Madam Court Reporter, would you please swear them in?
(Witnesses sworn.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Afternoon, Mr. Bellows.
MR. BELLOWS: Good afternoon. For the record, Ray Bellows.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Let me go ahead and get the disclosure,
here.
go
if
Commissioner Mac'Kie?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I have none.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: None.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: If we don't have any, do we need to
through this charade every time or is it only if there is something
disclose that we probably ought to pipe up and share that?
MR. WEIGEL: The answer is yes.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yes, what?
MR. WEIGEL: Only if you have something to disclose.
Although
the question is given to you by the Chair, then there is then one
might say an obligation to respond.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The Chair has been tremendously
inconsistent
today.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: I've had contact with the petitioner on
this
item.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. In the future, I'll just ask anyone
with any disclosure statement, please do so now, and you're on your
Own.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: There you go.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Bellows?
MR. BELLOWS: The petitioner seeks an after-the-fact variance
of
10 feet, 5 inches from the required 30-foot side yard setback to
allow
a garage to remain at the existing location of 19 feet, 7 inches.
Current property owner states that when the property was -- when he
purchased the property in '85 the side setback in the Estates was
10
percent of the lot width, not to exceed 30 feet.
He started construction on the garage in '91; completed in
'93,
without building permits. The setback requirement was changed in
'91
to a maximum of 30-foot -- or minimum of 30-foot side yard setback
in
the
the Estates.
If he obtained building permits, we would have been able to
direct him to the proper setbacks or if he built it at the time the
10-foot setback -- percent setback requirement was in effect, then
structure in the existing location would be conforming.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Who is the owner that performed the work
without a building permit? The gentleman here, Mr. Huff.
Do you have any letters of objection from neighbors?
MR. BELLOWS: No letters of objection; three letters in
support
from the adjacent property owners.
The Planning Commission deemed that because of the wooded
nature
and the fact there is approximately 20-feet setback, that they
voted
for approval by a vote of five to two.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Questions for staff? Mr. Huff?
MR. Huff: For the record, Kelly Huff. I admit that I done it
without the permit, but I did bring this to the county's attention.
to
to
was going to sell the property -- CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: You brought it to our attention because you
were going to sell it and it was caught on a survey.
MR. Huff: No, sir. When I went -- the people that were going
buy the house asked about the garage. I said I would go get the
permit, straighten it out, no problem. When I went to the county
get the permit, they requested a survey. So then the survey, so -- CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I don't have any love loss for people who
don't pull permits. I'll be honest with you.
MR. Huff: There is -- there is no excuse. I done it. The
reason for doing it was when I started in '91, I knew I didn't have
the money to complete it.
In the last couple weeks, in the planning meetings I did learn
that permits could be extended, that they didn't end in six months.
didn't ask enough questions.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Questions of Hr. Huff?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: What was the Planning Commission's
recommendation? It was yes, it was favorable because of the wooded
nature?
MR. BELLOWS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: After-the-fact permit's what, twice
the cost?
MR. BELLOWS: For zoning, it's double; for building permits,
it's
four times.
COHHISSIONER HAC'KIE:
solving
fee
Well, so what's the total cost of
this problem, if it's solved?
HR. BELLOWS: Well, from a zoning standpoint, it's 850.
Depending on what the building permit fees are, four times.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Do you know what your building permit
is, sir?
MR. Huff: At the meeting they assumed 200-some dollars plus
850.
COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE:
dollars
to solve the problem.
MR. Huff: Yes.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE:
It will cost you over a thousand
I guess I just think that's -- I have a
of
hard time with this, too, Commissioner Hancock, but it is a penalty
a thousand dollars for failing to do it on time. Haybe that's
sufficient, I don't know.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: The problem is, it's -- a variance is a
function that's reserved to the purview of this Board, and we have
gentleman here that didn't bother to do that, and didn't even
bother
to get a building permit. So, you know -- MR. Huff: I'm willing to pay all --
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: -- he's taken our -- our duty away from
US,
which is to protect the health, safety and welfare of his adjoining
neighbors, by not following the procedure. So he pays a thousand
bucks and he gets away with it. I just, you know, I'm not sure
that
that's the way things ought to happen.
MR. Huff: It's been more than a thousand, but the money -- I
understand. It's been a costly mistake.
MR. BELLOWS: I have some photographs that show the structure
more clearly, if you'd like to see them.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I would. The other thing is if he came
in
and asked for the variance ahead of time, I probably would have
voted
in favor of it because his neighbors don't object and it's in the
middle of a wooded area.
So I guess to my mind, the penalty is the financial penalty,
and
that's enough.
HR. Huff: If's a big word. But if I would have got the
permit
the building would have been in the same place it was 18-foot
setback
then, and I set it back almost 20, just for what I had gave.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So you would not have needed a variance
if
in
you had applied for the permit at the time. It's only the change
the regulation.
Mr.
the
MR. Huff: The setback law has changed since then.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Further questions of Mr. Huff or staff?
Fernandez, do we have any additional speakers? MR. FERNANDEZ: No, sir, we have none.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Considering his -- I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'll close the public hearing.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Considering his neighbors' support and
fact he's having to pay a sufficient dollar penalty, I'm going to
move
approval of the variance.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion and second. Any discussion on the
motion?
Seeing none, all those in favor signify by saying aye.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Aye.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Aye.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Opposed?
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: No.
Motion carries three-two. Variance is approved.
Item 13A5
RESOLUTION 97-462, REGARDING PETITION V-97-12, ALFRED W. FRENCH
REPRESENTING SEACREST COUNTRY DAY SCHOOL REQUESTING A 6 FOOT
VARIANCE
FROM THE REQUIRED 30 FOOT MAXIMUM HEIGHT LIMIT IN THE ESTATES
ZONING
DISTRICT FOR PROPERTY LOCATED ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF DAVIS BLVD. AND
OPPOSITE BERKSHIRE LAKES - ADOPTED
Next item, last scheduled item 13(a)5, Petition V-97-12, Dr.
French representing Seacrest Country Day School, requesting a six
foot
height variance from the required 30-foot maximum height limit.
This is a quasi-judicial matter. Members of our staff, Mr.
French, as soon as you get done tacking up there. Bob, you want to
help him? We'll go ahead and do the swear-in.
A1, if I could ask you to raise your right hand. Madam Court
Reporter, if you'll please swear them in.
(Witnesses sworn.)
CHAI~ HANCOCK: Thank you. Mr. Bellows, this one doesn't
appear to be too terribly complicated, does it?
MR. BELLOWS: No. It's basically to improve the architectural
appearance of the campus, the center building, the recreational
center
is going to be designed with a hip roof and flat tower --
CHAI~ HANCOCK: Any objections?
MR. BELLOWS: No objections.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Going to make it prettier, going to
make
it beautiful. It's a very positive --
CHAI~ HANCOCK: And the six is not really useable floor
space,
there is an architectural component to address the aesthetics of
the
building and make it nicer. Did I miss anything there, Mr. French?
MR. FRENCH: I'm sorry?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: We were saying how much we like the
design
of the building and what a good idea this variance appears to be.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you. My presentation is concluded.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: It's really to address an architectural
component and not a building floor or add additional floor space,
anything like that. Is that correct?
MR. FRENCH: That is correct, Mr. Hancock.
CHAI~ HANCOCK: And it's before you build it, which is kind
of
get
neat on these variances to get them that way. Do we have any speakers on this?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Mr. French is the only registered speaker.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Unless you have an absolute dire need to
anything on the record, Mr. French, I think I'll close the public
hearing.
MR. FRENCH: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Is there a motion?
it?
COHHISSIONER HAC'KIE: Motion to approve.
COHHISSIONER NORRIS: Second it.
Chairman HANCOCK: Motion and second. Any discussion?
Seeing none, all those in favor signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response)
Motion carries five-zero.
It just seems odd to spend all day waiting for that, doesn't
HR. FRENCH: Thank you very much.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Beautiful design.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Next, we have staff communications. Mr.
Weigel, do you have anything this morning, or this afternoon,
excuse
me?
MR. WEIGEL: Well, only to say that our office will miss Mike
Pettit, Assistant County Attorney leaving at the end of this week.
He's been with the office for three years, and been certainly a
core
and very assisting member of the team. And we wish him well on his
private practice endeavor.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Likewise, the Board would like to thank Mr.
Pettit for all of his work and wish him the best of luck and a
speedy
return.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It's going to be hard not to factor
that
in in any votes against his employer now. When Goodlette, Coleman
and
Johnson come in here, the fact that they steal some of our best
lawyers is going to be hard to ignore.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I already vote against them all the time,
anyway.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Fernandez.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Just to say that my office is going to miss
Mr.
Pettit, too.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Mac'Kie?
COMMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Nothing, thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Norris.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Nothing further today.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Berry?
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Nothing, sir.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Constantine?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And on behalf of the Beanie Babies, we are
adjourned.
***** Commissioner Norris moved, seconded by Commissioner
Constantine, and carried unanimously, that the following items
under the Consent Agenda be approved and/or adopted:
Item #16A1
RESOLUTION 97-451, GRANTING THE FINAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE ROADWAY,
DRAINAGE, WATER, AND SEWER IMPROVEMENTS FOR THE FINAL PLAT OF
"STELLA
MARIS"
Item #16A2
BOY SCOUT TROOP 274 EXEHPT FROH PERMIT FEE AND STAFF DIRECTED TO
PROCESS A FUND TRANSFER IN THE A_MOUNT OF $75.00
Item #16B1
RESPONSE TO RFP 97-2724 ("FINANCIAL AUDIT/SOLID WASTE COLLECTION
SERVICE CONTRACTORS") - REJECTED AND STAFF TO RE-BID
Item #1682
BID 97-2752 TO REPAIR AND REHABILITATE THE COCOHATCHEE EAST & WEST
A_MIL
GATES - AWARDED TO HASTER'S GROUP, INC. IN THE A_MOUNT OF $61,930.00
Item #1683
DEVELOPER CONTRIBUTION AGREEHENT BETWEEN COLLIER COUNTY AND CENTEX
HOMES, INC. FOR ROAD IMPACT FEE CREDITS IN RETURN FOR THE DEVELOPER
ACCEPTING STORM WATER RUNOFF FROM THE GOODLETTE-FRANK ROAD FOUR-
LANE
PROJECT FROM PINE RIDGE ROAD TO VANDERBILT BEACH ROAD (C.I.E. 065)
STAFF DIRECTED TO PROCEED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE DIRECTION OF THE
BOARD
Item #16B4
BID 97-2730 TO CONSTRUCT A ROOF COVERING FOR THE MAX HASSE
COMHUNITY
PARK - AWARDED TO TAYLOR PANSING, INC. IN THE AMOUNT OF $119,490.00
Item #1685
RENEWAL FOR A ONE YEAR PERIOD OF CONTRACT 95-2388 IN ACCORDANCE
WITH
PURCHASING POLICY - RENEWALS STARTING SEPTEMBER 17, 1997 FOR
ARDAMAN &
ASSOCIATES; LAW ENGINEERING, INC.; AND UNIVERAL ENGINEERING
SERVICES
Item #1686
BID 97-2743 TO INSTALL MEDIAN IRRIGATION AND LANDSCAPING
IMPROVEMENTS
FOR DAVIS BOULEVARD PHASE I (U.S. 41 TO AIRPORT-PULLING ROAD) -
AWARDED
TO HORTICULTURAL INDUSTRIES, INC. IN THE AMOUNT OF $333,500.00 -
STAFF
DIRECTED TO NEGOTIATE WITH HORTICULTURAL INDUSTRIES, INC. AFTER
COHMENCEHENT OF CONSTRUCTION TO ASCERTAIN COST REDUCTION
POSSIBILITIES
IN THE WORK SCOPE ON THE ORDER OF 6e OF THE BID AMOUNT
Item #16D1
AND
CONTRACT AGREEMENT BETWEEN COLLIER COUNTY GOVERNMENT AND INSURANCE
RISK NLA/~AGEHENT SERVICES, INC. FOR PROPERTY AND CASUALTY INSURANCE
BROKERAGE SERVICES
Item #16El
BUDGET AMENDMENT RECOGNIZING FUNDS RECEIVED FROM CABLE FRANCHISE
RENEWALS
Item #16G1
MISCELLANEOUS CORRESPONDENCE - FILED AND/OR REFERRED
The following miscellaneous correspondence as presented by the
BCC
has been filed and/or referred to the various departments as
indicated
on the miscellaneous correspondence.
AL
Item #1611
AGREEMENT IN THE LAWSUIT ENTITLED COLLIER COUNTY VS. COHMUNITY
DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION OF SOUTHWEST FLORIDA - HICKORY BAY WEST, ET
the
There being no further business for the good of the County,
meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 12:45 p.m.
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX
OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF
SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS
CONTROL
TIMOTHY L. HANCOCK, CHAIRMAN
ATTEST:
DWIGHT E. BROCK, CLERK
These minutes approved by the Board on
presented or as corrected
as
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING BY:
Kaye Gray, RPR