BCC Minutes 07/29/1997 R REGULAR MEETING OF JULY 29, 1997
OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COHMISSIONERS
LET IT BE REHEHBERED, that the Board of County Commissioners in
and for the County of Collier, and also acting as the Board of Zoning
Appeals and as the governing board(s) of such special districts as
have been created according to law and having conducted business
herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building
"F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the
CHAIRMAN:
following members present:
ALSO PRESENT:
Timothy L. Hancock
Timothy J. Constantine
John C. Norris
Pamela S. Hac'Kie
Barbara B. Berry
Robert Fernandez, County Administrator
David Weigel, County Attorney
Item #3A
AGENDA AND CONSENT AGENDA - APPROVED AND/OR ADOPTED WITH CHANGES
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Good morning. I'd like to call to order the
Board of County Commissioners' meeting for July 29, 1997.
We're pleased this morning to have Reverend Paul Jarrett from the
Naples Church of Christ here with us to give our invocation this
morning, and in doing so, I think I would like to ask that we give our
thoughts and prayers to Tom Olliff. His dad, Gene Olliff, is in the
hospital and our wishes -- and best wishes for a healthy recovery go
out to him today. Reverend Jarrett.
REVEREND JARRETT: Our Heavenly Father, we come before your
throne at this time with hearts filled with gratitude for the many
blessings that are ours as a result of our living in a nation and a
community that gives us so many things in the way of material
blessings and spiritual blessings, and we thank you for this
governmental process that makes these blessings possible.
We thank you for the fact that there are gatherings such as this,
where as citizens of this country we can have input into the decisions
that are made and we pray that you would bless those who make these
decisions, that they might make them in the interest of the largest
majority of our citizenry, and that each of us might be supportive of
those decisions, having had our say, but most of all we pray there
would always be concern with the least in thy kingdom.
That there would always be a desire to extend justice and mercy
to those who need the protection of our government.
That we might in making decisions for the citizens, never lose
sight of the individuals.
At this time, we ask especially that you would be with Gene
Olliff and we pray thy blessings upon him and his recovery and we know
that you're concerned about each of us as individuals and we thank you
for that concern, and we pray thy blessings upon this process in
Jesus' name. Amen.
(Thereupon, The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Reverend Jarrett, on behalf of the board, I'd
like to thank you for taking the time to be with us this morning. We
certainly appreciate it.
Good morning, Mr. Fernandez.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Good morning.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We have a list of a few changes already today.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Yes, we do.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Let's go through those.
MR. FERNANDEZ: The first is item 5(C)(1), presentation by the
court administrator regarding the reimbursement from the violent crime
council for the Cracker Barrel case. He's requested an opportunity to
speak to the board on that issue.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We enjoy receiving money, so that's fine.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Another addition is item 8(E)(2), which is a
resolution fixing the date, time and place for approving a special
assessment against properties within Pelican Bay. CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. FERNANDEZ: That's a staff request.
The third addition is item 10(B), which is a discussion regarding
the request for a reconsideration of utility regulation consideration
ordinance, requested by Commissioner Constantine.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Can I ask? Do we have any backup on that
or --
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Today is just to ask us to reconsider.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: We're not actually doing a
reconsideration.
MR. FERNANDEZ: It will be brought back at a future meeting.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. FERNANDEZ: We've had a number of requests to continue items.
The first is item 12(C)(1), request to continue Petitioner
AV-97-013 to vacate all public road rights of way and utility
easements and dedications with that portion of Championship Drive,
Fiddlers Creek. That's a staff request.
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Continue it 'til when?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah, I received an indication of a one week
continuance.
MR. FERNANDEZ: That really is up to the commission.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: It's either one or four, because of the second
half of the vacation schedule.
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I've talked to people on both sides of
that issue and I think one week's fine.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Is it one week now? Okay. One week. So that
will come up August 5th.
The next item to continue, item 12(C)(2), is recommendation to
consider the application submitted by Media One Enterprises
Incorporated for renewal of a cable franchise. I believe they
requested it to be continued one week to August 5th. CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Okay. The next is to continue item 12(C)(6) to
August 5th. This is Petition CCSL-97-2. The Vanderbilt Beach Motel
requesting a coastal construction setback variance to allow for
construction to enclose the first floor of an existing structure.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I understand, Mr. Fernandez, the county
attorney's office has been asked to render an opinion regarding that,
and it was rather late in the schedule when that occurred. Is that
the basis for the continuance?
MR. FERNANDEZ: I understand that to be a petitioner's request.
I don't know if it was based upon the county attorney.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I just -- I met with the petitioners yesterday
and had some discussions and that's why I know about a request of your
office, Mr. Weigel.
MR. WEIGEL: The county attorney's office is not requesting the
continuance itself.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Right. Correct. The petitioner is. I just
-- oh, Mr. Cautero, you have --
MR. CAUTERO: If I may, Commissioner. Vince Cautero for the
record. I'm recommending the request for the continuance due to the
petitioner's request late last week that the ordinance -- the -- in
particular, the flood plain ordinance doesn't apply in this case and
we need some time to, you know, gather a legal opinion.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Agreed. That made sense yesterday. I just
wanted to make sure that nothing else had changed in the meantime.
Okay. Thank you.
MR. FERNANDEZ: The last item is to continue item 13(A)(4) to
August 5th. This is a petition, FDPO-97-1, Vanderbilt Beach Motel.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And that's related to 12(C)(6)?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Yes, related to that one.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The only thing I have, and I'm sure we've all
received this, is to pull 16(B)(2) off the consent agenda which is the
Miller Boulevard Extension piece. I received several requests for
that, so I'd like to --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: If you're so inclined, I don't have
any objection, but it just seems to me all we're doing is ratifying
the board action, we already had full discussion on it, so unless
there's something new, I don't -- my recollection is we spent an hour
and a half, two hours discussing it last time around, and we came to a
decision and all this does is reinforce that decision.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Agreed, I -- you know, we'll hopefully limit
this to any new information as opposed to a recitation of what we've
already heard, but the requests for the continuance were varied and
many, so I felt that just to serve the public that would be a good
idea.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: People want to speak on it, so --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: 16(B)(2), Mr. Fernandez, will become --
MR. FERNANDEZ: I believe 8(B)(2) under public works. Probably
the most appropriate place to put that one.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Commissioner Mac'Kie, do you have any
changes to the agenda?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Norris?
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Nothing further.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Berry?
COMHISSIONER BERRY: Nothing.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Constantine?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'll have one item under
communications, but no other changes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I, likewise, will have one item under
communications.
Do we have a motion?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, I make a motion we
approve the agenda and consent agenda as amended.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion and a second. Any discussion? All
those in favor signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
Item #5B
EHPLOYEE SERVICE AWARDS - PRESENTED
Seeing none, we are to -- we do not have any minutes to approve,
proclamations and service awards, which it's my honor this morning to
recognize many employees for extended periods of service, and I do it
a little bit backwards. I start with young'uns at five years and go
to the veterans at 20.
First, I would like to recognize from our Parks and Recreation
Department, five years' service, Edwin Barroso. Edwin, are you here?
Okay. Edwin's so hard at work, he couldn't make it this morning.
We'll make sure we get that to him.
We also have five years' service in Parks and Recreation, Bruce
Sansone. Bruce?
(Applause)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And with EMS this morning, we're recognizing
Brian Swindale for five years' service. Mr. Swindale?
(Applause)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I apologize, that's Swindale. Thank you.
Congratulations.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Thank you, sir.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: In stormwater management, in the aquatic side,
we have Harry Alkire for ten years' service this morning.
(Applause)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Congratulations. Thank you.
Also with 10 years' service in traffic operations, Willie
Bullard.
I'm seeing Willie Bullard and I see Aaron, so I don't know how
that works, on the shirt.
COMHISSIONER BERRY: Thank you very much.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Thank you, sir.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And also ten years' service in Department of
Revenue, Evelyn Ferguson.
(Applause)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Hard being in a department ten years that's
only been around a year and a half or so.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Just seems like ten years.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Also for ten year service, we have Patrick
Webb.
(Applause)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We see a lot of Patrick running around here.
Thank you.
From Road and Bridge celebrating 15 years is Joseph Chirico.
(Applause)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Congratulations. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Appreciate it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And hitting gold medal status today for 20
years' service in Parks and Recreation, James Thomas.
(Applause)
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And in the Ochopee Fire Control, also with 20
years' service, Robert Mayberry, and we're not gonna applaud because
you're not here, Robert, so we'll make sure we get that to you. Big
hiring time.
Item #5C1
PRESENTATION BY THECOURT ADMINISTRATOR REGARDING THE REIMBURSEMENT FROM
THE VIOLENT CRIME COUNCIL FOR THE CRACKER BARREL CASE - HARK
MIDDLEBROOK PRESENTED A CHECK IN THE AMOUNT OF $30,707.10
We are to item 5(C), presentation from Mr. Mark Middlebrook,
court administrator. I see Mr. Middlebrook in the room with us. I
understand Mark may even be delivering a check and we encourage more
employees to do the same.
MR. MIDDLEBROOK: Mark Middlebrook, Senior Deputy Court
Administrator, Twentieth Circuit. Mr. Chairman, good morning.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Morning.
MR. MIDDLEBROOK: Two years ago the court administrator, Doug
Wilkinson, gave me an edict, which was to control costs, seek money
wherever it's available to reimburse the county. He's quite aware of
the adverse effect article five has on most of governing bodies here
in this circuit.
Because of that edict, with the assistance of the county attorney
and the clerk of courts, we sought reimbursement for the Cracker
Barrel monies that were spent during the trial, which was
approximately $80,000. Due to a significant amount of agencies
seeking money and some requests that we made that were deemed
inappropriate, under the public defender's cost, the state doesn't
wish to reimburse for those for some reason, we received a check made
out to the Board of County Commissioners for $30,707.10, which we'd
like to present to you right now.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Middlebrook. Thank you.
(Applause)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We appreciate your work and we all know the
cost of the Cracker Barrel case was extensive and the result was good
for the community and this is very much appreciated, Mark, thank you.
Send that on down to Mr. Fernandez, where we can take good care
of that.
Item #SB1
RECONSIDERATION OF DEVELOPER CONTRIBUTION AGREEHENT WITH COHMERCIAL
DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION (CDC), PREVIOUSLY APPROVED WITH STIPULATION ON
JUNE 24, 1997, TO INCORPORATE A REVISED STIPULATION REQUESTED BY THE
DEVELOPER - APPROVED
We are to 8(B)(1) under public works, request the board consider
the Development Contribution Agreement with Commercial Development
Corporation, previously approved with stipulations. Mr. Kant, good
morning.
MR. KANT: Good morning, Commissioners. This item was before you
on June 24th at which time the agreement, the Developer Contribution
Agreement was tentatively approved.
I say tentatively, because the agreement, it is -- it was my
understanding it was approved in principle, however, the chairman
expressed some concern with respect to one of the clauses in the
agreement. At that time, the developer's representative could not
commit the developer and had to go back and get agreement from the
developer.
Since that time, we've had conversations and communications with
the developer's representative and they have agreed with a slight
change.
At the time, the chairman had requested that the credits -- the
unrestricted assignable credits be limited to 520,000. The developer
is requesting that that figure be 605,970 -- six hundred five thousand
nine hundred and seventy dollars.
So staff felt that because the stipulation that the developer's
requesting was different from the stipulation that had been requested
by the board, that we should bring this back to you for further
edification before requesting the chairman to sign the agreement.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Any questions of Mr. Kant?
Any speakers on this item?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Seeing none, is there a motion?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Motion to approve.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion and second. Any discussion on the
motion? Seeing none, all those in favor signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
Mr. Kant, thank you.
MR. KANT: Thank you. Thank you.
Item #882
BOARD AUTHORIZATION TO PROCEED WITH JUDICIAL ACTION FOR PRESCRIPTIVE
EASEMENT RIGHTS FOR COLLIER COUNTY AND THE PUBLIC TO A SEGMENT OF
ROADWAY KNOWN AS MILLER BOULEVARD EXTENSION AND STAFF DIRECTED TO
APPROACH PROPERTY OWNERS TO DONATE EASEMENT INTERESTS TO COLLIER COUNTY
- APPROVED
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Next was an item moved from the consent
agenda, item 16(B)(2). This is a request regarding the Miller
Boulevard Extension and, again, for those members of the public
wishing to speak on this item, the board has had a lengthy discussion
on this and what we'd like to entertain at this point with the
exception of Mr. Muller's statements, is any new information that can
be provided that would be pertinent.
Mr. Mullet, good morning.
MR. MULLER: Good morning. Good morning, Commissioners. For the
record, my name is Russ Mullet and I'm an engineer with your
transportation services department. Item -- agenda item 8(B)(2),
formerly 16(B)(2), is regarding Miller Boulevard Extension. A mile
and a quarter unpaved road connecting southern Golden Gate Estates
with US 41.
There are many issues connected with this roadway, but the item
before you today seeks approval to go to court and determine if the
traveling public has any rights to the road, and at the same time,
direct staff to attempt to acquire easements through gift. That's it.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Has anything materially changed since
we last discussed this? MR. MULLER: No.
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Are there any questions of Mr. Mullet?
There has been some correspondence in my office that refers to
the paving of Miller Boulevard Extension. What we're talking about
here, as I understand it, is the minimum grading necessary to make the
road passable. Is that --
MR. MULLER: That's what we'd have to go for first.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. MULLER: To see if we have rights in there to go in there and
work and then go in there to make it passable and then eventually, I
think your direction from last September was to pave it, that may be a
permitting impossibility.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Right. Understanding that there may be -- we
may hit some hurdles then. I think the minimum benefit we wanted was,
and it came from a public safety standpoint, was to be able to get
emergency equipment in there because we know there's service calls in
there and we've had trucks stalled out in water.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I suspect you-all got the same letter
I did, and that's from the emergency personnel who said it can be a
difference of between 8 or 10 minutes and 30 minutes in response time.
So, clearly, there is a need for this.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Let's go ahead and go to public
speakers on this, Mr. Fernandez.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Mr. Chairman, the first speaker I believe had to
leave because of jury duty, Nancy Payton, but she asked that her
comments on the back of the form be included in the record.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. FERNANDEZ: The next is Clifford Fort.
MR. FORT: I'll waive my speaking. Thank you, Commissioners.
MR. FERNANDEZ: The next is Rebecca Jetton.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And following Ms. Jetton will be?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Nettie Phillips.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Ms. Jetton.
MS. JETTON: Thank you. I'm here representing the Department of
Community Affairs, the Big Cypress Critical Area Program. My
supervisor, Mike HcDaniel, from the Critical Area Program has written
to you expressing the Department of Community Affairs' strong concern
regarding improvement to Miller Boulevard.
Several years ago, Governor Chiles wrote to you stating his
concern that improvements to Miller Boulevard would lead to increased
traffic resulting in higher panther mortality rates and also may
continue to make acquisition of southern Golden Gates more difficult.
The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers have written to you in the past
regarding the need for permits to fill the wetlands. U.S. Fish and
Wildlife have expressed their concern for protection of panther
habitat.
Federal and state funding as of this year will provide 50 million
to complete the acquisition of southern Golden Gate Estates. It's
anticipated that a proposed settlement agreement regarding the private
lawsuit for inverse condemnation against the state will go to the
government and cabinet next month and that will result in new
appraisals and should also result in acquisition of the balance of the
land in Southern Golden Gate Estates.
All these actions will facilitate the restoration of Fakaunion
Canal and when that occurs the ground water level should come back and
you should have a decrease in wildfires that you're having there.
The department is certainly sensitive to your concern about
providing public safety to the individuals who live there. From
reviewing files over the last 10 years prepared by your staff and from
looking at maps that Division of Forestry has prepared, it appears to
me that most of these houses are located above 52nd Street.
I would request that the board appoint a work group of all the
stakeholders to evaluate other access options and come back to the
board in the next 30 days with their recommendation. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you. Do you have any questions?
Thank you.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Next is Nettie Phillips and then Mike Simonik.
MS. PHILLIPS: Good morning. My name is Nettie Phillips, for the
record. I'm supportive of Miller Boulevard Extension being further
expanded, paved, whatever has to be done, so that the users of
southern Golden Gate Estates can have the use of their property or the
use of that road, a more convenient use of evacuation for health
reasons, for life reasons, for the community, and, Commissioner
Hancock, I believe it was last Tuesday, I happened to catch some of
the commission meeting and I couldn't help but notice that you were
addressing Twin Eagles when you told those people -- well, you told
some people that had some opposition to Twin Eagles project that you
couldn't have the people lose the use of their property and therefore
being deprived of the use of their private property rights.
Well, I feel that the people in south Golden Gate Estates have
the same rights, and for 12 plus years, they have been deprived of
those rights. They should be able to use Miller Boulevard Extension
and they should have the use of their land, as well.
I mean, I'm opposed to what the government has done to them over
there. It looks like they're still gonna be in limbo up to the year
2000, possibly longer. I call that the loss of use of your property
and the loss of your private property rights, constitutional private
property rights.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think you're preaching to the choir on that
One.
MS. PHILLIPS: Well, okay. The state of -- the county
commissioners and the State of Florida do not have to implement
federal regulations. They can fight this and I'm really appalled that
the communities are not more up on what's going on in our country and
our rights and that our state and county governments do have the right
to protect the citizenry and we do not have to implement federal rules
and regulations in the state, in the county. That's really for
Washington, D.C. and it's really for interstate commerce and they do
not really have the right to come down and implement these rules on
us, especially federal mandates that are unfounded.
So, I mean, I'm really upset with our communities, that they
don't support our government better, so that our government would
support the people to our constitutional property rights and not a
legislative democracy.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Next is Michael Simonik and Clifford Fort has
asked to be reconsidered to speak again.
MR. SIMONIK: Good morning Mr. Chairman and commissioners. My
name is Michael Simonik. I'm the environmental policy manager for the
Conservancy of Southwest Florida. We nearly have 6,000 right now. We
are growing by leaps and bounds. I think it's a bull market at the
Conservancy in our membership. We have 600 volunteers and 32 member
boards and I'm here representing them today.
I think there is new information that has been brought to light
in the last few months over this issue and some of it was spoken of by
Mr. Jetton about the new 50 million dollars that is being put towards
the acquisition of the estates and facilitating that process and
speeding it up.
I think the agreement of the lawsuit is very close at hand and
that will also facilitate the rest of the purchase of the property and
there's an issue -- it's an issue of timing with Miller Boulevard.
We're not gonna stand up here as the Conservancy and say that we
oppose Miller Boulevard on the grounds that it's running through
environmentally sensitive areas, because maybe in the future that's
the best place to have public access for our new safe Picayuane Strand
Forest.
The issue is timing. It is now not the time to put Miller
Boulevard Extension in. This will not help facilitate the completion
of the acquisition of southern Golden Gate Estates.
So we are not objecting -- we might not object to Miller
Boulevard Extension being put in once we have the completion of the
acquisition.
Another thing and, I guess -- well, I heard of this -- I haven't
heard mention today of the alternate -- alternative road, which is the
Collier Seminole State Park Road, that has limited access and it's
gated and that might be used for fire and safety, too. So I haven't
heard from staff on why that would cost more or why that's not a good
alternative. I don't know. Maybe I can have that question answered,
and then another thought is a twist on the issue, or maybe it's just a
twisted thought.
The Department of Forestry has been curiously silent in the
Miller Boulevard Extension. As far as I know, the division is neutral
on it and I don't think they're here today, but I think that they'll
want a road there in the future, they just don't want one now. So, I
think that's a new issue too, is that they're being silent on this.
I guess with Miller Boulevard, one thing else about it is the
cost of the road and the litigation and how long is it gonna take
throughout all this litigation to get the road and are we gonna have
the purchase done by then.
So with the Division of Forestry -- another issue with Division
of Forestry is, if they want the road when everything's purchased and
maybe that will be in three years, about the same time the litigation
ends, why is the county going to pay for their road? I guess that's
my twist on it. You're gonna put up the money now to build a road
that they may want in three years when the acquisition of their state
forest is done. So that's all I have on that. Thank you.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I have a question for you, Michael. You
said that the -- that we can delay the improvements to the road
because of the acquisition project. My question is, is it the
Conservancy's position that improving the road might delay the
acquisition process?
MR. SIHONIK: At this time, yes. That's our position at this
time, is that it won't help facilitate -- it certainly won't help
facilitate acquisition in a speedier manner.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Okay. I agreed that it won't do anything
to help, but how might it do something to hinder?
MR. SIHONIK: It will bring public access into the area. More
people may want to move into there and make it more marketable.
A VOICE: Which means values go up.
MR. SIHONIK: but no one is losing rights right now by not having
Miller Boulevard paved. It's not been paved.
A VOICE: Not yet.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Folks, folks, folks, folks, there will be no
comments from the audience. If you'd like to speak as an individual
at the podium, you can register as a speaker if you'd like. Thank
you. Any further questions?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Well, I just would like for staff to
answer the question too about Collier Seminole as -- that gated access
there as an alternative. I'm not familiar enough with the roads out
there to know if that's a reasonable alternative.
MR. BOBANICK: For the record, Dave Bobanick, Interim
Transportation Director. Commissioners, we did make a visual
inspection of the State Park Road. Part of my staff went out and took
a look at it. Concluded that it did lie relatively low. It needed
improvements that we felt were in excess of the -- of a hundred
thousand dollars. Well in excess of the $75,000 that we estimate it
would take just to fill the holes on the Miller Boulevard Extension.
So we did make an inspection of it and felt it would cost
significantly more just to bring the road up to make conditions where
it was passable for emergency vehicles.
MR. SIHONIK: Can I ask one more question?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Quickly.
MR. SIHONIK: Is there any litigation involved with using the
Collier Seminole State Park? We have to go through that.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I don't understand the --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: At a cost.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Is it a public road easement, is what he's
saying.
MR. BOBANICK: We've not identified -- it's a road over public
lands. It's not a public road -- CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. BOBANICK: -- as far as we know.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you.
No, ma'am. No, ma'am. Excuse me. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. We
have so many people that charge the microphone after certain speakers,
so --
MR. FERNANDEZ: Clifford Fort and then A1 Perkins.
MR. FORT: I'm sorry. I wasn't going to speak until I heard Ms.
Jetton speak with the DCA. My name is Clifford Fort. I'm president
of the southern Golden Gate Utilities Association and Director of
Broken Wing Ranches located in sections 1 and 12, township 50 south,
range 28 east.
It appears to me from the comments that are being made here, it
is flagrantly overt the politics that are becoming involved here and
you, as commissioners, have been dealing with that for a long time,
trying to give us a fair shake out there. Unfortunately, you're kind
of put in a tough position because you have all this pressure, but,
you know, the health, safety and welfare of the citizens and the
residents of southern Golden Gate is a priority.
You know, remember when those stop signs went out there and
everybody said they're going to be shot down? Well, you know, several
people turned up dead and the other day, despite Ms. Jetton's comment
regarding anybody living south of 52nd, that is absolutely fallacious.
I would invite Ms. Jetton to come out to my ranch. We've got a
beautiful home built out there. I've sold five, five acre tracts, and
by the way, we're gonna have about three permits for three 3,000
square foot homes coming out there.
The utilities have been confirmed, and it's real simple, you
know, nobody wants us to be able to get in and out of there, and
you-all are gonna be the first ones to bite the bullet when somebody
doesn't get rescued in there and there's times when those roads --
when those vehicles are out there, the only way to come in there is
Miller.
Well, I wish you-all would go out there and take a look at Miller
and see if you were in trouble and you had to get out there. We're
stuck. One way in and one way out. They open up that access, they're
aware of the utilities and this is a flagrant effort by the state and
by the environmental groups to drive those values down and it's
presumed here this is a done deal, because there's 50 million dollars.
Well, I'll be glad to give you newspaper articles where they've been
call -- people have been calling going, "Wow, you've got 50 million
dollars. I'm ready to sell." Sight unseen they're being offered a
thousand dollars an acre and told their land might be appraised lower,
if it's appraised.
Now, nobody in their right mind would think that that's a square
deal, and nobody would think that we're getting a fair shake out
there. So I really hope this thing's being sorted out 'cause you-all
have heard the same tune. I've heard it for 10 years.
For 10 years we've been trying to get an off of Miller, and then
they'll have us rotting out there for another 10 years because there's
not been one commitment to commend that -- to condemn that area.
We have a right to ingress and egress, and we have a right to our
safety and I hope that you will remain firm on this. Thank you so
much.
MR. FERNANDEZ: A1 Perkins and then Mary Dunavan.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I appreciate that Mr. Fort. I should have
asked you halfway through, that, you know, again, we -- some things
that we've already heard, let's try to curtail those things.
MR. PERKINS: Good morning, Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen
and people at home. You've heard it all before. I'm only going to
skim across the top, try to refresh your memory on some of this stuff.
I don't know whether I said my name or not. A1 Perkins, Belle Meade
Groups.
I've been pushing on this because of the fact that we've had
fatalities out there due to the negligence of the State of Florida and
the DEP, the Department of Internal Plunder. The Conservancy sits up
here this morning and tells us all about how wonderful they are. They
instigated some of the lands being put on the CARL list, which they in
turn are being funded through Natures Conservancy, which goes through
the Big Cypress Basin Board. They end up with money. They're getting
paid. They are subcontractors. They pick up 14.5 in administrative
costs. The Natures Conservancy picks up an additional three percent
profit margin. These people are paid lobbyists. I'd like know if
they're registered paid lobbyists. They're here getting paid. I'm
not getting paid. I'm here on behalf of a bunch of working people who
can't get away from their jobs because they're trying to make ends
meet.
You talk about the fire out there, I heard that this morning.
Yeah, right. Division of Forestry took 'em -- almost burnt clear to
Sabal Palm Road because they took and started a controlled burn that
got away from them. Fire trucks were coming from North Naples and all
the way up in Estero, down 75, had no place to go except back up and
around and they couldn't get through. We're talking about an hour's
worth of time lost. That in distance in a fire, in a heated fire 45
feet high, you just lost a lot of animals, a lot of property, a lot of
fences and God knows what else. The time, the labor, the amount of
money that was spent to try to control that thing and put it out, you
people paid for it. You perpetuated their jobs.
The panther, great old panther. They packed them up shipped them
off to canned hunts in Texas. That's where you pay to kill a panther
for a monument or a --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Let's remind ourselves of that. We need to
come back on --
MR. PERKINS: Right. Okay. Access to the Picayuane Strand State
Park. This needs to be addressed, because if you're gonna have a park
in there, how the heck do you get to it? At the same time too, and
I'm going to drive this home, the evacuation routes from Marco Island,
Goodlette, Fiddler's Creek, all along 41, the farmers, and also with
the Port of the Islands, how do you get out of there in time? And
don't tell me you're gonna use 41. Don't tell me you're gonna use 75
and as far as 951 goes, you're gonna be backed up all the way to the
Immokalee Road, and if you have accidents, you are going to have a big
problem all over. You're gonna perpetuate the problem.
Collier Seminole State Road. Okay. Dead ends on private
property and it's also controlled by the DEP, which would put more
hurdles in the way. They bought property on Miller Boulevard along
with the Wildlife Federation and the Forestry just to hinder the
improvement of Miller Boulevard.
Now, the next thing they'll want to do is most likely they'll
wnat to mitigate it. That's called extortion in my language, and as
far as the stipulated settlement went, it's time to take -- totally
get rid of that. All it has done is kill some of my friends.
With that, water heights. I need to address that. When you take
and create enough water out there, you're gonna have panthers dying
because there's nothing for it to feed on. You're gonna have all the
animals that run across the ground, dead. You're gonna increase the
mosquitoes here for encephalitis, and if you don't believe me, if you
read the paper about the bear over on Port Royal, what was it doing
there? Because it didn't have anyplace to eat, nothing to eat. When
you do that out there, you're gonna move all those animals in town
and, hopefully, they'll all end up at the Conservancy having lunch.
I would like this board to approve this, if for no other reason,
to save lives. Save lives. Do the right thing for a change. Save
some lives in this community, because that's basically what we're all
about. With that, I'll quit. Thank you for your indulgence. MR. FERNANDEZ: Mary Dunavan and then Tina McDonald.
MS. DUNAVAN: Good morning, Commissioners. My name is Mary
Dunavan and I'm speaking for myself and A1 touched a lot of things
that I was going to speak on, but I would like to support the fixing
up of Miller Boulevard and the fires do burn animals and it does burn
their habitat, and if there's no access to fight the fires, then we
are not doing right by the animals, let alone the humans that live in
that area and the humans are taxpayers in this county, so with that,
thank you very much.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Tina McDonald and Vilma Cirincione.
MS. MCDONALD: Good morning. My name is Tina McDonald. I
represent Collier Cattle Corporation and Tropical Ranch Properties.
We feel that it is the board's responsibility to address the
priorities most prevalent, which is the health and safety and welfare
of the citizens and the property owners in the southern Golden Gate
area.
In the summertime, Jane's Scenic Drive is usually flooded. There
was only one way out to the south. Wildfires to the north would trap
the residents. We feel that if Miller Boulevard were put in a
condition where people could get in and out, and not being trapped in
there, would be most beneficial. The wildlife that's there is gonna
cross Miller Boulevard, but we need to get our fire safety people in
there, our firefighters, our emergency services, that we are entitled
to as taxpayers. Thank you very much.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Vilma Cirincione and Brad Cornell.
MS. CIRINCIONE: I'm Vilma Cirincione. I'm here to represent
myself and my neighbors. The funny thing about this is that most of
the people that are against making Miller Road passable, don't live
there, don't live in the Estates, but yet they're fighting it tooth
and nail.
Now, animals are important. I'll go with that water flow, but
humans are first. I think our welfare is more important.
Now, there are people on Everglades Boulevard area in the
Estates, you know, north of 1-75, that could use that road to get out.
Especially if you wanted to go to Port of the Isles or anyplace to
Everglades City. You could use that. It would be a shortcut. I
mean, it would save a lot of miles.
In the past, I've been to meetings at the transportation
department, at Horseshoe, and one of the items that came up at the
time and Mr. Archibald spoke of and said that Miller Road was actually
important farm to market road. That at the time he felt it should be
considered and put in, which as far as I'm concerned, and other
people, still goes.
And we need this road now. Not in the future. It's been
discussed for years and it seems that they keep putting it off and in
the past we have seen, or other people that have lived here for years,
where these groups take over this property and 10 years down the road
they end up building on it.
One good example is the area of Davis and 951. Where people were
pushed out for environmental reasons and others, they were bought out
and you know the construction that's at that area now. That south
part there were people in my neighborhood that owned down there and
yet they're building like crazy there. All of a sudden it becomes
okay. They don't worry about water flow, animals, or anything if
there's a profit.
So please consider the people that live there, their safety and
welfare. Even I could use that road. It would save me a lot of
miles, so I thank you for everybody.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Last speaker, Brad Cornell.
MR. CORNELL: Morning, commissioners. I'm Brad Cornell and I'm
here as president of Collier County Audubon Society and I would like
to point out I'm not paid to be here and, in fact, I'm taking time off
of work to be here. So please know that we have citizens' interests
at heart, too.
I do want to point out that we are on record as being opposed to
the improvement of Miller Boulevard Extension, as you know. I think
in this morning's discussion it's pertinent to say that the new
situation which warrants looking at this a little more closely is the
improved climate of the southern Golden Gate Estates state land
acquisition efforts.
As you-all know, there is a big lawsuit or actually two lawsuits
which are very, very close to being settled and the improvement of
Miller Boulevard Extension, I think, would exacerbate the problems
involved with that situation, and the priority which the state has now
given to this CARL project, I think means that we need to take a
second look before improving that road.
The situation a year ago, or whenever it was that you had
originally given direction to pursue the improvements, I think has
changed. So for that reason, I believe it warrants looking at this
more closely.
In fact, to that end, I would like to respectfully request that
you postpone your decision on this from today and actually appoint a
task force to look at the issues so that you can consider more fully
everyone's concerns, because we acknowledge that they're -- it's a
very complicated situation, and it's hard to say that it's all black
and white, pave it or don't pave it.
While we feel that you shouldn't pave it, we're willing to sit
down and discuss with people who disagree with us all the issues
concerned, including the Picayuane Strand Forest and the residents in
southern Golden Gate Estates, as well as other factors.
So I would respectfully ask that you postpone your decision and
look at this more closely. Thank you very much.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Mr. Chairman, after I announced the last speaker,
we had another one come forward. Bob Schank.
MR. SCHANK. Good morning. Bob Schank, fire chief, East Naples
Fire Control District and president of Collier County Fire Chiefs'
Association. I apologize. I didn't want to get up here and
duplicate, if there was already a chief prior to me speaking, but I
appreciate the opportunity.
I haven't come to you with any statistics and war stories, just
with plain old common sense that the emergency services need to get
out there, whether there's an acquisition problem or not. We've been
battling this thing for 18 years of my career here and it hasn't
gotten any better, and there's fires still out there. All you have to
do is look east, come around January and February and the story's told
to you.
I know my department's had apparatus damage trying to get through
there, and I know Isles of Capri certainly has, and all the districts
that have come through that Miller Boulevard thruway.
Presently it is true, I stated Friday that it took a half hour
for my department to get out to the south blocks. Well, after a
closer review of my run reports, it goes somewhere around 45 minutes
to get a brush truck from the station on the East Trail all the way
north on 951, all the way east down to Golden Gate Boulevard and all
the way south back to Everglades just to get to Miller Boulevard, or
anywhere else in that part of the Estates.
So I'm here today -- we've talked about it over the last few
years. I'm just begging you. Give us some help out there. The
emergency service needs -- right now you can't get an ambulance. We
may be able to get a brush truck down there right today, but certainly
an ambulance can't get there and certainly apparatus.
So what I say is -- I come to you with -- basically begging you.
Help us out here. Let us get out there to do our best. These are
some good people out there. They need the same protection as the
people in the city and I appreciate that. Thank you. MR. FERNANDEZ: Cathy Myers.
MS. MYERS: My name is Cathy Myers. I live -- I have five acres
out on Sabal Palm Road Extension. I lost my husband out there three
years ago in a car accident because there was no way of getting out
there for safety. Excuse me. If they had an ambulance to get out
there, my husband might be alive today, but because you people out
here fight for transportation, he's dead. He'll never see his
grandson. He'll never see his kids grow up and that's because you
guys tore the sign down and because you guys won't put those safety
things out where people can drive and be safe. But, no, you guys
won't have nothing out there, and other people die and get killed.
One of my other kids can be killed or something out there because you
guys won't give us nothing out there.
I'm sorry. I get emotional every time I think about my husband.
He laid out there for two hours. Two hours alive and no help for him
because -- just because you guys couldn't get out there. If you guys
were able to get out there maybe he'd be alive today. But, no, you
county people cut out Miller Boulevard, where nobody can get in and
out. You cut out Sabal Palm Road where you can't get safety in there.
My house almost burned down twice because of fire and because you
guys were too lazy, what is water management? I mean, I never get
into this stuff. My husband always came down to these meetings and
stuff because I always worked and he worked too, but he always made
time to come down to these meetings. But, no, you guys -- they had a
road going there. You guys dug up the road where there could put fire
departments out there. You guys dug it up, water management and
everything else, because you said it wasn't done right because maybe
they forget something, but I tell you what, if you county people do
not do this there will be more people killed out there and there won't
be nobody to get there to help them.
I mean, my husband will never see his kids grow up, never see his
grandson. All because of you lousy people, the courthouse -- the
county, whatever. I don't do this. I don't know what I'm talking --
you know, but I'll tell you what, you better put that road in there
and you better make sure nobody else gets killed out there, like one
of my kids or my grandchild. That's all I got to say.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Further speakers?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No speakers.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Close the public hearing.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, motion to approve the
item.
COMHISSIONER BERRY: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Any discussion? All those in favor signify by
saying aye.
Opposed?
Motion carries five, zero.
Item #8C1
PROPOSED NEIGHBORHOOD PARK OPTIONS FOR TRACT 179 IN GOLDEN GATE - STAFF
DIRECTED TO PURSUE PURCHASE & IMPROVEMENTS WITH GENERAL FUND REVENUE
BASED ON COUNTY ATTORNEY REVIEW AND TO BE REPAID BY PROPOSED HSTU
WITHIN 18 MONTHS OR PROPERTY TO BE SOLD; APPRAISALS WAIVED
Next item is 8(C)(1) under public services. Consider the
proposed neighborhood park options for tract 179 in Golden Gate.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: This is the item I brought to you a
couple months back, and you all have a handout with a map. If you're
not familiar with the property, we'll show you where on Golden Gate it
is. It's the -- I'm sorry, I'm covering my own microphone. It should
be in yellow. The top sheet is just a description from down at the
tax office.
It had been set aside in the deed of restrictions by Avatar 30
years ago as a park site and never developed. We have an opportunity
to pick it up at about a third, I think, of what its existing value is
and our staff has laid out four options here.
My suggestion is going to be that we go and purchase the site and
at the very least hold it for development as a park in the future, but
I'd like to see us go ahead and explore the MSTU option consistent
with what we've talked about for neighborhood parks and if we can
combine that perhaps with impact fees for any of those, if available,
and if not the MSTU pick it up, but I'd like us to get that in the
inventory, anyway.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Constantine, do we have any --
any type of commitment regarding an MSTU before we go expending
general fund dollars on this site?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: We have some of the residents here and
they'll get up and speak during the public comment. I mean, we
haven't done a straw ballot, if that's what you're looking for, but we
certainly have the ability and the authority to do that and that's
consistent with the discussion we just had on our parks program a
month ago, where we talked about doing neighborhood parks, but asking
communities to fund them themselves.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Is it anticipated the MSTU would also refund
the general fund for the purchase of the land?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: No, I saw it as the county can provide
that. The MSTU would develop it and would maintain it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: What's the cost of the land?
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I think 70,000.
MS. RAMSEY: Seventy-nine. I'm sorry, Marla Ramsey, Parks and
Recreation Director. The appraisal that I got was 77,900.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Have we done anything like this anywhere else,
Marla, to date or is this a new animal based on the recent policy that
the board adopted for neighborhood parks saying pretty much what you
have, that they'll be constructed and maintained by an association or
some entity?
MS. RAMSEY: Since the adoption of that capital plan a month ago,
this is the first one, yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Any questions?
Yes, Commissioner Mac'Kie.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Was it anticipated in the MSTU program
that we discussed or was it -- have we anticipated how we would
acquire the properties? I thought as we were going through the MSTU
process for neighborhood parks, adopting those policies, that all of
the expenses of a neighborhood park would be funded by the
neighborhood. Is that addressed in the policy?
MS. RAMSEY: That's a good question. I think that it was kind of
-- the plan that I brought before -- if you remember the supplement.
Do you need another copy of this? I do have those, if you wish. The
example that I gave in the back had looked at it as being donated
land. That's on the top in the example, so --
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: I guess, as much as I support this idea,
'cause I think neighborhood parks are just a wonderful part of the
program and commend you for coming up with a way to bring them back
into our system.
My idea of neighborhood parks is that the entire cost is born by
the neighborhood, so I would think that the acquisition money would
likewise be included in the MSTU funds.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Can I ask what the zoning on the property is?
Do we know?
MS. RAMSEY: All I know is that it was designed for a park. I
don't know what the exact zoning is. She said it's multi-family.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: What I'm curious about is the 79,000 -- or
77,900. Is that based on an overall evaluation of multi-family
zoning, because if it's been designated as a park site the value per
acre is far less than a multi-family piece.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: You're correct. Actually, the initial
one was set at 229,000, or something like that, that's from Avatar and
I said to them, "No, that's not gonna happen," and I think we came
back with a couple different numbers. They came back and had offered
to do it, purchase -- or sale at roughly half that, and we've done the
appraisal putting the park site designation on that and came up with
the number you have.
Ms. TAYLOR: Sandy Taylor from your Real Property Management
Department. It's based on replacement. If the county were to buy a
park site, the $77,900 is what the county would pay to purchase a park
site. So it's based on substitution.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Further questions of staff?
Commissioner Norris.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I think that it's a great idea to get
MSTU's together to do this sort of thing, but I -- here we're once
again, it looks like we're trying to mix general county funds with
MSTU funds if we go ahead with this project.
I think the MSTU should pick up all the costs of -- of this type
of proposal. I know there's several others around there. There's at
least two proposals down on Marco Island that would be similar at this
time, and I don't think that we're anticipating funding those or
purchasing the property through the general fund and then coming up
with an MSTU to do the construction. That's not what's been proposed.
So in the interest of fairness and evenhandedness, I think we
ought to ask the HSTU, if there is one, to fund the entire thing.
MS. RAMSEY: If I may. I think one of the reasons that you don't
have a complete plan of HSTD in front of you is that this land was put
up for auction back in April or Hay and we asked them to hold it with
some time to consider a park situation.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That's what we're trying to accomplish today
to see within that framework if there's a way we can accomplish this.
If there's no objection, we'll go to public speakers on this. Mr.
Fernandez.
MR. FERNANDEZ: First is Mr. Michael Dearson, then Beth
Kiedrowski.
MR. DEARSON: Good morning. Mike Dearson, the record. Thank
you, commissioners, for letting me speak this morning.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Feel free to pull that mike up, if that
makes it easier.
MR. DEARSON: Thank you. I'm a little nervous here.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's okay.
MR. DEARSON: That's almost a five acre tract of land. I live
across the street from that and I have two small children, six and
eight. My next door neighbor, Beth Kiedrowski, who's gonna speak
next, has four small children. This is a working class neighborhood.
We don't make great funds of money. So when you talk about Marco
Island and they're going to develop a park down there, they've got a
lot more money and deeper pockets than the people working in the
northwest part of the city.
Now, I understand that this changed a month ago, so I've been
pushing this for two years, believe it or not, and spoken to people
about this and it just came to a head when they realized that Avatar
was going to put it up for auction.
I do not want a multi-family housing built across the street from
my home and Avatar should have developed this property years ago when
it was proposed as a park site.
Now, the plat -- I issued -- I made those maps myself this
morning. That is the original property card from the appraiser's
office that shows that that was a proposed park site in the original
Master Plan of Golden Gate City itself.
Now, I'm going to say that my tax dollars that I pay as a
homeowner in Golden Gate have gone to support the Lutz Park, have gone
to support the other facilities, including the Golden Gate Community
Park where the pool is.
I find it a terrible burden to put on the people who work hard
for their money to expect us to spend $335,000, or something of that
nature, to develop this park when everybody else in the city can use
it. That's not fair.
Now, I understand your points on this, but it seems like -- I've
been pushing this for two years and talking to people about it and all
of a sudden now, a month ago, the laws have changed and the rules have
changed and now you're expecting us to carry the load and we can't do
it. We don't possibly have that kind of money. Even if you're
talking, $10 a year or 15 or $20 a year, you're talking years of
taxation on us. That's not fair, that the whole community can use.
That's a large enough tract of land. You can put a nice soccer
field there. You're always looking --my daughters play soccer.
They're stacked like core wood at Vineyards Park. Every Saturday,
there's thousands of people out there. Well, why not have a little
relief on those fields and use this one. You can have scheduled games
on one big park. You can have a football field there, for Pee-Wee
leagues. You can possibly, if it's big enough, and it may be, to put
a lighted ballpark there, if the commission desired to do that.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Actually, you're making the case for the
regional park concept.
MR. DEARSON: I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: When we do single ballparks here or there, or
whatever, the efficiency and the maintenance cost of maintaining a
single park here and there, is what has caused us to go to the
community park idea, where we can put six fields in, instead of one,
and serve more people's dollars.
MR. DEARSON: I understand that.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: So you're kind of -- you're kind of making the
other case, actually.
MR. DEARSON: I don't see it that way, I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. DEARSON: I see that this could be a beneficial park to the
whole community. Though it's a smaller scale park, it still can be
used as a park. Downtown Naples has the baseball park that -- Cambier
Park's been there for years. I played ball when I was six years old
there. I've been here since '59. So I've grown up in this community.
So I don't see why our dollars -- the community's dollars can't go to
support a community area. Though it's a smaller community park, it
could have -- it could have tennis courts. It can have basketball
courts. It could have a small diamond for Little League. It can be a
very functional park, and that part of the city, of Golden Gate city
has nothing for the children. I can't expect -- I highlighted the
school from my home. It's across the street from the lot. There's a
canal and a bridge. There's no sidewalks for the children to ride.
I'm not going to expect my six year old and my eight year old to ride
their bicycles over to play at the park that's almost a mile and a
half away. That would be a very unresponsible parent to let their
children out of their sight, to go play a mile and a half away at a
school yard. It's too far.
So this is what that was designed for in the original Master Plan
in Golden Gate city, and I don't see why it can't be fulfilled as the
original idea set forth in the Mater Plan in the city. Thank you very
much for your time.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you. Questions? Commissioner?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: What's lot 171, that's also shown on this
map? Is it currently developed? Do you know?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I don't know. Sandy may be able to
help us out. I know there was a couple of extra -- I don't think that
was one of them. There were a couple extra sites that got --
MS. TAYLOR: I'm sorry. I missed the question.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- put up for auction
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: There's also on this map, there's site
171, that looks like multi-family.
MS. TAYLOR: Yeah, all the major tracts were put up for auction.
However, just tract 179 was of interest to the community.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So 171 has been put up for auction and is
zoned multi-family?
MS. TAYLOR: All the ones that have restrictions as to civic
purposes were taken off the auction list because the only person that
can purchase it are also other civic organizations, such as the Elk's
Club, et cetera. It's more of a community use, so they took all those
off.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Do you know if 171 is on or off the
auction list?
MS. TAYLOR: The auction was held in April or May. I believe
they were all taken off and they are still currently on inventory by
Avatar.
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'm working from recollection, but I
think 213, which you see down below, was one of those that was taken
off as well. I'm not sure that 171 was taken off. There was a five
acre site on 50th or 51st or one of those maybe south on 100th and
there was 213 and 179. I don't think 171 was one of those that was
taken off. I don't even know if that was part of Avatar's property.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: I was just curious if that was slated for
multi-family in the future. That's what my concern was.
MS. TAYLOR: I can look it up and get back with you in just a
second.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: I'd like to know. Same thing with 213, if
you're looking.
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Two hundred thirteen I know was one of
those on the auction list and yanked, yeah.
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Our last speaker was discussing a community
park, but the proposal here in front of us is a neighborhood park; is
that -- we're not considering a community park in this process, are
we?
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: We're putting in six soccer fields on
that site. Really, really small soccer fields. CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Next speaker.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Beth Kiedrowski and then Larissa and Avia
Kiedrowski.
MS. KIEDROWSKI: Morning, Commissioners. My name's Beth
Kiedrowski, and when my husband and I bought our home, we were told
that it was on a prepared park site and that's the main reason we
bought our home. I'm nervous.
I do not allow my children to go to the school because of all the
strange incidents at our school in Golden Gate. The closest park for
them to play at is Aaron Lutz Park and that would mean crossing
Sunshine Boulevard, a main road to get there.
I took an informal survey of the neighbors, just the roads -- the
four roads surrounding the park and the roads behind them, and there's
over a hundred small children under the age of 12 in our neighborhood
alone and they need a place to play.
A lot of people couldn't come today because we are working class
and they're in day care centers and stuff, and there are some families
that do home day care in their home, which would be a wonderful place
for them to bring their kids that they watch to play.
If it went to multi-family, our property values would go down and
we'd all move and then you'd have a real mess out there and that's all
I want to say. I think Larissa wanted to talk.
MS. KIEDROWSKI: Hi, my name is Larissa Keidrowski and I wanted
to play at the park, but it's too far away for me to ride my bike to
all the way, like to one mile or something, and please make a park for
us closer to my house.
MS. KEIDROWSKI: Thank you. We're done.
MR. FERNANDEZ: That completes the speakers, Mr. Chairman.
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, I can appreciate the
board's desire to make sure we, funding-wise act responsibly, but I
think a couple of things set this apart and one is the cost and time
factor. We have an opportunity to pick up a piece of property at a
very reasonable cost.
The time issue is one that Avatar did this at our request to pull
it off. It may very well disappear if we don't take advantage of it.
An HSTU wouldn't happen until, you know, we put it in place, we
couldn't have funding until the following fiscal year, and really what
I've tried to do is come up with -- I probably should have explained
this better, is come up with a way to make this a reality.
Your average home around this park and in the general
neighborhood is a 70 or $75,000 home, and so a taxable value is if
your homestead is -- 4,500 thousand bucks, and so the kind of
improvements and the kind of maintenance that we expect is a burden,
but it's a burden they're willing to carry.
I just think in order to make it a reality, $77,900 isn't a lot
of money in the big picture. I look at how much we spend on medians,
how much we just estimated we'll spend on the Naplescape -- Collier
Naplescape program, and I don't object to that, but just as I look at
this and look at the need, if we can partner up, I'm not suggesting
that we maintain it forever or do any of that. I think they need to
take care of it themselves, but I'm concerned that it won't become a
reality at all, if we don't participate in purchasing the property.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'm just concerned it won't become a reality.
I mean, we heard from two residents -- three residents today. One
slightly smaller than the other two versions, but -- and the first
gentleman basically said, "We don't have the money to do this. We
don't have the money to pay for this as a park," and here's a
gentleman who lives directly across the street with children saying,
"We can't afford another tax to do a park."
We haven't even talked about the acquisition price and so forth,
and I guess, I haven't heard or felt a groundswell of support from the
people who would be taxed to do these improvements that gives me any
confidence in the purchase or acquisition of the site. Had I heard
that, maybe I would feel a little differently.
I also happen to agree with Commissioners Hac'Kie and Norris, in
that I think we need to separate, if we're gonna have a neighborhood
park concept, we need to separate it entirely, and that includes
acquisition cost of property. Otherwise, we don't really have a
measuring stick to go by.
A community could want us to go out and buy a 30 acre park for a
really nice neighborhood park and I think we get into a little bit of
a difficult area.
There has been a lot of capital dollars expended in and around
the Golden Gate area and more recently with Hax's Park and I think you
have done a very good job on this board of pointing out the fact that
the number of children in this area is very, very high, and I think
the board in the past in turn has responded with the development of
several parks that may not be within bicycle distance, but I'm afraid
to get in that zone that if we try and provide a park where everyone
can get on their bike and ride there, we're gonna be back in the same
position we were, that the maintenance of all these small parks is
just tremendous.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: And I'm certainly not suggesting we
should try to do that. I'm saying this is a unique situation. We've
got a four acre parcel in the middle of a community that was -- many
of these people, when they built their homes were told would be a park
site. We have no sidewalks, which is unique to Golden Gate community
-- throughout most of Golden Gate. The closest park --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: In my neighborhood, we don't have them,
either.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: The closest park is two, four lanes
away, a bridge and couple of canals and I'm sorry you haven't heard a
groundswell. I certainly have, but apparently they don't call all
five commissioners.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Berry.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: I'm certainly sympathetic with the people
who live in that particular neighborhood. I think it's unfortunate
Avatar, knowing this would probably be a family community, did not
take it upon themselves to donate this land on behalf of its citizenry
that would be out there and donate this to the citizens of this area
for a park, and I think at this point in time, rules do change and the
rules have changed on the commission, in terms of the park
designations for regional park and separating community parks.
It was my understanding that any future parks in areas, in little
communities, would certainly be the community aspect, and that the
HSTU would cover that cost, and I thought that was from acquisition to
the upkeep and so on. So that was my understanding.
I think this is probably a fair deal price-wise, but I don't
think that that's the direction and the current rules that we have in
place for this kind of place for this kind of a park situation. So I
-- as nice as it would be to have for all these children, I think that
we, you know, we have the rules and we've got to kind of play by them.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Did you have the answer to the question on
1717
MS. TAYLOR: Yes, ma'am. Block 171 was part of the original
auction properties and it has been retained.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: One hundred seventy-one?
MS. TAYLOR: Uh-huh. Is that what you said before, 1717
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Yep.
MS. TAYLOR: In the same unit. Unit five, Golden Gate city.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: If it was designated park site in the original
plan, how can they now be used for multi-family?
MS. TAYLOR: Well, they couldn't be under the current
restrictions for civic purposes, but Avatar is under the opinion that
they can have those restrictions removed and therefore sell to the
current zoning, which is multi-family. Our county attorney's office
says they cannot do that. Again, it's just a difference of a legal
opinion.
I'm assuming that if the county doesn't pursue the acquisition of
this site, Avatar will probably do what it takes to try to fezone that
property and take that restriction off.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Does the county have any standing, Mr. Weigel,
in blocking them from doing that? I think the answer's no, but I need
to ask.
MR. WEIGEL: Well, I think the answer's no, but I need to ask
again of our staff that's reviewed that because typically it looks
like we're talking about private property rights and restrictions that
don't fall under zoning or some of the regulatory functions we have.
MS. TAYLOR: It's just the restrictive uses that are currently on
the property.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I guess it's just kind of ironic that
a year ago, at this time, we were having a discussion on greenspace,
and now we're saying, well, we really can't afford to do that and if
they go ahead and do multi-family and pack in 24 more residencies on
this four acres, oh well, and I'm just disappointed.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Constantine, the voters said
don't spend my tax money on greenspace.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: That's correct. I don't disagree with
you there. I said we should have a greenspace plan and a new tax
wasn't the way to do it. I was the loudest proponent of that
direction, so you don't need to tell me. Thanks.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is there any possibility of, I don't know,
acquiring the property and having the MSTU. repay the general fund?
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: There's one problem is that there is no
MSTU and that would be very speculative whether there is ever going to
be one, but --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The only way out here to find out if the
community truly is supportive is to -- if we wanted to acquire the
property with a caveat that there is an 18 month period in which an
MSTU must be formed for the purpose of repaying the general fund
acquisition cost of land and any improvements that they as a board
make recommendations to include in the MSTU. If that doesn't
happen --
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Then we sell the property as surplus.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- then we sell the property as surplus at the
end of that 18 months.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: I could go there.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think that puts it on the table to say we're
committed to the neighborhood park concept, but we require the
communities to support it, and if they cannot support or choose not to
support it, then we don't want to be on the hook with a piece of
property.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I can go there for a couple of
reasons. One, I think the community will choose to support it, but
two, if they didn't, we would have an opportunity to make a change
from multi-family.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, do you need a motion? I make a
motion that we acquire the property with general fund revenues, with
the caveat that within 18 months there must be an MSTU in place to
repay the general fund for the acquisition cost and to support the
improvements and operations of the neighborhood park, and in the event
that that's not in place in 18 months, that we declare the property
surplus and sell it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Weigel has a comment.
MR. WEIGEL: Just further information and that is, bear in mind
that we, the county, as a potential purchaser, will take the property
as we find it, in regard to any restrictive covenants that's there and
I'd reserve, in fact, the opportunity, not changing the direction the
board may be taking here, that we would come back and report to you
what we find with that property, as we do in initial title review.
COMHISSIONER BERRY: I think that's important.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think that's important, yeah, particularly
with the statement that you made that I considered earlier about
trying to protect the residents.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: But I do think what's unusual about this
situation is that the piece of property is available ahead of the
curve of the MSTU so, you know, if the community's willing to pay for
it, it seems reasonable to me.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Not just available, but on the auction block.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: On the auction block.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Which is different from a parcel that is just
listed for sale.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Right.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: That makes sense.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Is that a second?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I will second the motion.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: I'll second it.
MS. TAYLOR: Can I also just interject a couple other motions
that I need?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yes, Ms. Taylor.
MS. TAYLOR: I need you-all to waive the requirement for formal
appraisal based on the fact that the value is less than a hundred
thousand and that according to Avatar they did need the agreement for
sale and purchase executed by August 5th. What I'd like to do is, if
you can approve it contingent upon the county attorney's office
approval and their findings, I think Avatar would be happy with that.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I can include both of those in my motion.
MS. TAYLOR: Okay. Thank you.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: I'll second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Second amends. Ms. Ramsey?
MS. RAMSEY: Could I also get a budget amendment for that, as
well?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Is that a part of our package today?
MS. RAMSEY: Approval. Approval for that so that I can purchase
because it's on a time limit.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I intended that budget amendment process
to be a part of my motion.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Since you identified the general fund --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: General funds.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- reserves as the source. Was it reserves?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Yes, general fund reserves, 001.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: That's good to me.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Any further questions on the motion?
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I appreciate the board's willingness
to get a little creative here.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Just for you.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Well, for the community.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Just for the Gate.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: All those in favor signify by saying aye, Opposed?
Seeing none, we are approaching 10:30, let's go ahead and take
about the next seven minutes and reconvene at 10:30.
(Whereupon, a break was taken from 10:17 a.m. to 10:30 a.m.)
Item #8C2
RESOLUTION 97-301, AMENDING THE COLLIER COUNTY PARKS AND RECREATION
FACILITIES LICENSE AND FEE POLICY AND SUPERSEDING RESOLUTOINS 96-364,
96-467 AND 96-556 - ADOPTED
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'm going to reconvene the Board of County
Commissioners on July 29th. Our next item on the agenda is item
8(C)(2). This was a continuation from last week regarding fees for
youth sports activity and, Ms. Ramsey, do you have a presentation for
us this morning?
MS. RAMSEY: I've just given you -- I'm sorry, I'm Harla Ramsey.
I just gave to you a youth sports cost comparison. Hy objective in
the fee policy was to try to be equitable to all groups and every
group is doing type of season, a different length of season and the
only way I could really come up with something that was equitable is
to do something on a per week basis, and I tried not to raise the fees
for them as you can probably see with the cost comparison that you
have in front of you underneath the North Naples Little League girls.
They have about 200 youths there, and last year they paid about $.68
per week, when you divide it out. They actually have two seasons.
One of them is 8 weeks, one of them is 14 weeks, and then they have
about a four week all-star season after that. When you add that up
it's about 26 weeks and it comes out to $.68 per week.
With the $.70 per week that we've got projected in the fee
policy, and adding the fact that they have four weeks of post season
play there, the fee is really pretty much the same.
One of the concerns that comes into it is the Naples Youth
Soccer, which has a long season. It's about seven months in length
and so it's about 28 weeks and they were being an charged $8 per for
that 28 week period and the per cost for that came out last year at
$.28 per week. So there was a discrepancy between the weekly fees
that we were charging one youth sports group versus what was being
charged to another.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Can I ask a question?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Please.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Is there -- are the maintenance costs
associated with soccer, for example, less or more or the same as the
maintenance costs associated with softball?
MS. RAMSEY: Well, North Naples Little League girls are using two
fields, currently, right now. The cost -- I don't have a costs
breakdown specifically on it, but they're using those two fields. We
line the foul lines and we line the field.
The Naples Youth Soccer is using four fields at Vineyards and, of
course, we're using paint to line the fields there on a weekly basis.
I would guesstimate this would be pretty much the same cost-wise when
you compare those because you may want more paint on that field, and
you're cutting the grass on a regular basis as well.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: What about the wear and tear? Because I know
that when I was a kid, either the football field or the soccer field
by about halfway through the season, the mid part was a mud hole. Our
fields look exceptional for the use that they get, but is the fact
that it's a grass surface, cleats and so forth, is there more wear on
the soccer field that causes more maintenance? And that's an
assumption I'm making. I don't know if it's correct or not.
MS. RAMSEY: I would think that there's a concentrated usage in
the area of the goals, which is an area that we usually have to sod
quite often. We just did a resod of three of the fields at Vineyards
this year to be ready for the fall season, and I'm looking and talking
with the people that play soccer as to how we can alleviate some of
that wear and tear in goal areas, so we won't have that problem in the
future.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: By locating the goals to either the side
position for practice and so forth? MS. RAMSEY: Correct.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So basically soccer -- the cost -- I care
a lot about making the fees as fair as possible and it would be nice
if the fee for everything could be equal, but if the maintenance cost
of soccer is even higher than the maintenance cost of Little League,
then those fees might ought to be higher, but they certainly ought to
be the same. Thanks.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Any further questions of Ms. Ramsey?
COHMISSIONER BERRY: I do have a question.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yes, Commissioner Berry.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: What do they do in other counties with
regard to fees? Do you have any information on that?
MS. RAMSEY: It depends on which county you're talking about. I
did some research and some of them are doing similar 8, $10 per
cosponsor a child. Others are doing a cost of maintaining the field.
So if, for example, a rental fee for a field plus so much to line it,
according to which type of field you're looking at. I prepared a
comparison with Lee County versus what we're doing and it's real
similar when you look at the cost that they're using per field and the
rental fee as well. I think it was actually, maybe, $400 per week,
say at Naples Youth League, it would be $400 more if you were in Lee
County.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: So what you're proposing is what? I mean,
what do they pay now?
MS. RAMSEY: The Naples Youth Soccer?
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Right.
MS. RAMSEY: Right now they're paying $8 for a 28 week season.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Okay.
MS. RAMSEY: And Naples Little League girls play -- paid $16 for
a 26 week season last year.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: And the proposal is you want to change it to
what?
MS. RAMSEY: I want it to go to a $.70 per week, per child, and
then what that also does is it gives the leagues flexibility. They
can determine what their cost is going to be by how long their seasons
are. If they think the fee's too high and they want to go to all
eight week seasons instead of 8's and 14's, then they can do that.
that gives them some options there as well, rather than a straight
fee.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: But to just kind of get to, you know, so
we're talking apples and apples here, instead of about -- let's say
you take the Naples Youth Soccer, if you're -- which one did I do
here? Well, about 28 weeks, I guess would be the soccer season, if
you take that times $.70 a week, is that what you're proposing?
MS. RAMSEY: Right, if you look at the bottom of that.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: So you're looking at about, instead of $8,
you're looking at $20; is that correct, that that child's gonna be
paying?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, it would go up, I'm sure. I don't know. I
think it might have been $18. The fees as listed -- COMMISSIONER BERRY: It comes out to $19.60 or something like
that, but I just --
MS. RAMSEY: Right.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: That's a better part of a $20 bill.
MS. RAMSEY: The other thing to note, is that Naples Youth Soccer
does have different seasons, as far as their high school season may
only go 10 weeks in the fall, but that's it for them, but their
younger kids might go for 28 weeks or longer depending on how long
they're in their playoff season as well.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I know my parents would have gone crazy if I
had a seven month season for anything.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: My kid made the team for this soccer and,
God, I was glad he didn't try out the next year.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Mr. Chairman, my point in this is that, you
know, there may have to be some adjustment and I'm not disagreeing
with you on this, but I do think that going from $8 to almost $20 and
I don't know if you've got multiple children playing and some of the
kids that you want to get involved in this, is there -- is there some
help or how does this work.
MR. OLLIFF: Well, I think --
COMMISSIONER BERRY: I need some education here.
MR. OLLIFF: The majority of leagues that we deal with have a
league very similar to what Marla's North Naples Little League shows
and, so, I think the fee was very inequitable in terms of the youth
soccer all this time. If you look at what a child was charged to
participate in Naples Youth Soccer it's $365 per child. Of that fee,
historically, $8 was your cost.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: This is a three percent net increase in their
total charge to the child. I mean, if you look at it in the overview
of 300 -- and that's something that I saw that obviously they
recognized the length of the season and they do a great job. I mean,
you know, they've got a lot of staff that does -- I mean, they just
really do a super job, but it shows up in the fee.
So this is not something that I think the difference of $12
prices a child out of a $365 program, whereas a difference of $12 may
price some kids out of a 20 or $30 program. I think it's a little --
it's somewhat relative when you look at that, and I don't mean that in
any way as a criticism to the Naples Youth Soccer, because let's face
it, trying to keep parents and coaches and people involved for that
long of a season is a feat in itself. MR. OLLIFF: Right.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I mean, it's done very well, but I do look at
that relative to the overall cost of the program, and I think that
that could be or should be part of our consideration.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: How do they pay this $365? How is that
done?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mortgages.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Personal check.
MS. RAMSEY: Personal experience on that is that they do give
them 200 raffle tickets and they're allowed at $1 per to reimburse
that 365. So it would cost them 165 if they sold all the raffle
tickets.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So first you buy the raffle tickets and
then you pay the 165.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And you never win the raffle, do you, Pam?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: No, I don't know how that happens.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Again, I don't want to get into the
Naples Youth Program because I think that it's operated very well, run
well, and they probably couldn't do nearly as good, you know, it
probably would cost more in other places to do that good a job.
there's a lot of volunteer effort, but I have to look at the relative
increase. It's really not that much, but we do have some speakers.
MR. FERNANDEZ: We have one speaker, Jerry Berry.
MR. BERRY: Morning. Jerry Berry. I'm here as president of the
Naples Youth Soccer Club, and Commissioner Hancock, I appreciate your
comments about the club. It's probably not necessary but let me go
ahead and explain a little bit about the 365.
First of all, there's never been a child, there never will be a
child that's been turned down because they can't afford to pay the
365. There is the raffle tickets.
Our season is seven months long. As you said, we considered that
as part of it. It costs well over $500 per child to put on the
program, so through fund-raising efforts and so forth, by a variety of
people, we do that.
Volunteer hours, there's at least 100,000 hours that go into the
program. Our program -- we're doing in comparison to the program,
we're doing an apple and an orange. This is basically an all-star
program, where you have the select kids from the county that are
competing against select programs throughout the state. There's
traveling involved.
We need rather than just parent coaches, there's nothing wrong
with parent coaches, but you have to have people that are high level
coaches to get to that level we want to.
I'm pleased to announce we've just -- we've had kids going to the
Olympic Development Program. We had seven kids make the State Olympic
Development Team. Two kids, just last week, made it to the regional
team. If they make it they go to the USA National Team. So we're
producing some of the best soccer players, literally in the country,
and it's because of the efforts.
Now we get to the usage. The comparison here probably isn't
fair. You're using the North Naples Little League Soft -- you're
using a softball field compared to a soccer field. Commissioner
Hac'Kie brought up what's the cost of maintaining a soccer field and
park staff, which do a great job. Juggling all these sport programs
is an impossible task and so far they've managed to keep all of us
happy.
I've seen Jim Thomas out in the twilight hours lining fields,
which isn't even his job, but every time we've needed anything they've
done it, but the difference is when they start comparing the cost.
They've left out the fact that we're not the only ones who use
the soccer field. For that $.70 per week or $22 per year, we're
getting about a half a field for a team. We compete against teams
that have a full soccer field for every single one of their practices.
We don't have that. We use half a field. Sometimes, as Harla knows,
there's sometimes we're using a corner of not even a field to practice
because there's not enough fields.
As the other speaker said they're stacked like --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Cord wood.
MR. BERRY: Cord wood at the Vineyards, and that's true, but not
only is our program using it, but the Optimist Program uses it. They
have a thousand kids in their program. They have two seasons. The Y
has a thousand kids. The Hen's Soccer League used it. There's pick
up games. After every one of our practices, there's pick up games on
almost every two or three fields, and those people aren't paying
anything.
I don't want them to pay, but when we started going through all
of this, what we're asking when we started figuring out the cost of
maintaining the soccer field, you have to divide the 2,000 kids,
rather than the 200 kids who are using it and it's a lot less
expensive to mow a soccer field.
It's got to be mowed whether or not we're playing on it or not.
It only gets lined a few times a year. Yes, it gets re-sodded, but
that's generally only -- I think this is the first time in three or
four years that any of the fields and that's only four of the fields
that were being re-sodded, and a lot of areas there are just patchwork
each year in front of goals and so forth, and we're gonna try to do
that. We're gonna try to have the goals switch positions and so forth
to help that, but I don't think it's fair to do the apple and orange,
but when you start talking about a 250 percent increase for our
budget, regardless where the money comes from, whether it comes out of
a child's pocket or parent's pocket or people out there getting money
for the club, it hurts.
It's an -- I'm not sure about the figures. We figured it cost us
an additional $2,500 by the increase for our team and, frankly, we
can't afford it. That's money we would be using for something else.
We're about to the limit that we can ask parents to contribute. We're
asking -- we realize there should be increase, but I don't think it
should be a 250 percent increase. Going from $8 a year to $10 a year
is a 25 percent increase, which is a large increase in itself and
that's something we can live with. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I guess, you know, today we just seem to be
dealing with issues of kids and safety and all the stuff that's hard
to say no or hard to make a decision on because you want to do what
you can.
I appreciate your explanation, and I know you have a fine
developmental program. I mean, I would say the upper tier of kids
gravitate to the NYS Program, and that's fantastic. It kind of makes
the argument the other way, though. You know when we think about
providing parks --
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: That's your standard line today.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Yes, you're arguing for the other side.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Don't say anything today because I'm going to
turn it around on you. When we think of parks, I think of pick up
games and Pee-Wee leagues. You know, the kids that may not be the
superstars, but just want to be involved in active sports and I know
the YHCA Soccer League, and Harla has experience with that, and the
Optimist, tend to serve that group a little more and what we're
talking about here is a developmental league and what I would call an
advanced league, really, in my opinion. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: So the 250 percent increase, I understand, and
if there's a way that we can look at a two year phase in, fine, but I
do think we have to be at least consistent with field usage and length
of season has to be factored into that, somehow.
Shorter seasons shouldn't be paying the same per child as longer
seasons. That's just a logical approach to, you know, assigning fees.
So the length of season is key, and there are things you can do. You
could split your season into two seasons or other things, but I can't
see continuing to charge the same amount for short seasons that we do
for long seasons because logically these cost more money and,
particularly, and I would say in the developmental league situation
where it's not a casual, you know, mom and pop type of a thing, the
opportunity to recoup those funds is a little -- a little better than
it may be in other situations.
So, I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. I just -- I
think we need to be fair and I think this is a good approach in
fairness, even if it takes a year or two.
MR. BERRY: If I can respond. The argument about the usage of
the fields and longer you -- that makes sense, but we also have to
look at how much it's costing the county for a soccer team to use the
field. The point of the thousand kids using it, that a thousand kids
in a short period of time are probably destroying the fields more than
we are because they're using it, a thousand kids on that field all the
time from eight a.m. 'til four o'clock on Saturdays and on their
practice and so forth, are doing as much or equal damage, regardless
of the time in the season, and you can't compare it to the softball
teams or the baseball teams and so forth, because the cost of
maintaining a baseball field is going to be more for the amount of
usage on it than there is on a soccer field.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: But then doesn't that make the $.70 per
kid per week the ultimate fair way to do it? I mean --
MR. BERRY: No, because --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: -- it seems to me that's as fair as you
can possibly get.
MR. BERRY: Because you're comparing the soccer to the softball,
and you're getting more in revenue out of the soccer, on the soccer
field, and if you divide it per kid, it's not costing them -- the fact
is when the Y's using it or the Optimist's using it, that's $700 per
week that the county is getting to maintain a -- to mow a field.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, I think that's a little simplification.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Right.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Parks and Rec staff would tell you that mowing
isn't all we do. We just heard about the sod replacement we had to
do.
MR. BERRY: But that's every few years.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: But we're still talking about a fair --
what could be more fair than per kid, per week, whatever the number
turns out to be.
MR. BERRY: I don't have any problems with per kid, per week, but
$.70 per week for us is having us pay more than our fair share.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. Berry, really, I mean, if you're
charging them $365 and you're saying we don't want to go from $372 to
$385 because then we can't operate our program, I mean that's just
really --
MR. BERRY: I never said we wouldn't be able to operate the
program. The question is whether or not -- philosophically, I don't
know if there should be user fees on youth sports to begin with,
that's a whole other argument that we'd spend time on, but, I mean,
the fact that we're out there providing a service and the fact that
we're having to pay the county to provide that service doesn't seem
appropriate, but if we're going to pay, it shouldn't be more than what
it's costing the county to do that and I think it is more than what
it's costing the county.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Berry, I was born and raised in Florida,
and this is the only time I've ever been somewhere that the Little
Leagues didn't have to own the fields. I mean, when I grew up in
Little League whatever it was, soccer, whatever, the Little Leagues
owned the field. I mean, it was a situation where the county wasn't
even providing field space.
So I think, this board has done and previous boards have done an
excellent job in providing the space and making space available.
We're just saying that for anything other than pick up games and
family recreation, that organized leagues, instead of having to
provide your space for those organized leagues, we'll provide the
space, but you're gonna have to pay a small share of the cost, and if
you look at the total maintenance budget those fields go in and what
$.70 a week per kid does to that overall budget, you're not exactly
subsidizing the whole -- the whole thing so --
COHHISSIONER HAC'KIE: Are there other speakers?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah. I understand your point, but I think we
recognize what we do have, rather than what we don't have.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Other speakers?
Motion to approve staff recommendation.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Do we have a second?
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion and a second. Any discussion?
All those in favor -- I'm sorry, go ahead, I didn't mean to cut
you off.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'm not going to support the motion
just because I think -- I mean, you can do a comparison of the amount
of dollars collected or has to be raised through the year and all, but
the bottom line is what's our participation in that and the percentage
increase of what we're doing just seems to be a lot. I think it's a
matter of priority for me. I appreciate the fiscal conservativeness,
but if we're gonna try to spend our money only in a few places, youth
programs is one of the places I want to spend it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Any other discussion on the motion?
Seeing none, I'll call the question, all those in favor signify
by saying aye.
Motion carries three, two.
Ms. Ramsey, thank you very much. Mr. Berry, thank you.
MR. BERRY: Thank you.
Item #SD1
REVISION OF THE COLLIER COUNTY FIRE CONTROL CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENTS -
APPROVED
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Item 8(D)(1) -- am I in the right place? Yes,
I am. Revision of the Collier County Fire Control Contractual
Agreements.
Who's our lucky staff recipient on this one today?
Nobody's coming forward.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Diane Flagg is coming.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Diane Flagg. Diane's coming.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Oh, there she is. Okay. Get 'em jogging up
here.
MS. FLAGG: Good morning, Commissioners. Diane Flagg, Emergency
Services Department. Just a quick background. Pursuant to County
Ordinance 84-84, the county created the Collier County Fire Control
District to provide for fire protection services outside of existing
fire district boundaries.
Our protection has historically been achieved by the contractual
agreements with the two county fire departments and three independent
fire districts.
The need to cancel the current agreements and develop revised
agreements was based upon North Naples incorporating the portion of
the Collier County Fire Control District into their district and also
a request by the Isles of Capri Advisory Board for a review of the
resources and services being provided to the Collier County Fire
Control District.
The fire chiefs have reached a tentative agreement pending
approval of their commissioners for reallocation of the funds based
upon the review that was done looking at the services provided to the
fire control district.
The current agreements will remain in effect through September
30, 1997. The new agreements, based upon the new allocations agreed
upon, will be processed for implementation on October 1, 1997. So
there will be no lapse in service for the fire protection to the
Collier County Fire Control District. Per the --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So we get to see the reallocation?
MS. FLAGG: The reallocation that they've -- they'll come in the
form of the actual agreements. You-all will have to approve the new
agreements, but the reallocation that they've agreed upon is, I
believe it's 12 percent to Isles of Capri and then the remaining
balance to be shared equally amongst Ochopee, East Naples and Golden
Gate.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Mr. Chairman?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah, I'm sorry, Commissioner Constantine had
something and then Commissioner Berry.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Did you say the fire chiefs are in
general agreement, but that the fire commissioners have yet to approve
these items?
MS. FLAGG: The fire commissioners have not yet been presented
the information. The chiefs just recently reached the agreement. So
we're in the process of developing the new agreement based upon -- the
new contractual agreement, based upon the agreement reached so that
the fire commissioners will have something to approve.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: If the fire commissioners have yet to
take any action or haven't even seen it yet, isn't it premature to
cancel the existing agreement?
MS. FLAGG: Well, cancellation of the current agreement is
necessary due to the fact that North Naples will no longer be
participating and also the allocations will be revised under the
current agreements, so '-
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Did I misunderstand or did you say the
current agreement would stay in place through September 30th?
MS. FLAGG: Right, but the termination clause in the current
agreement provides that we have to give a minimum of 30 days' notice
and also cancel it prior to the end of their quarter, which -- next
quarter which will be September 1st.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: What happens if the fire commissions
don't agree?
MS. FLAGG: Ultimately, it will be the board's decision, the
Board of County Commissioners is responsible for this area.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I know. My concern is they haven't
even it seen yet, it would just seem like we're kind of ahead of the
curve here, are getting ourselves ahead, and I hate to do that. Go
ahead and cancel and have them not agree and then we end up going 90
days or six months or something without an agreement, or one that we
implement without them being happy with. It just doesn't seem like a
good situation.
MS. FLAGG: Okay. In order to remain compliant with the current
agreement, we need to provide cancellation of this agreement. In
other words, if we don't cancel this agreement now, then the agreement
will go for another year and they've already concluded that the
allocations primarily of the three departments, which are East Naples,
Golden Gate and Ochopee, those numbers need to be revised based upon
the services that the Isle of Capri Fire Department is providing.
The Isle of Capri Fire Department is providing a significant
number of services and are receiving a minimal reimbursement from the
fire control district. So the chiefs have gotten together and
acknowledged that -- that Isle of Capri should be appropriately
provided additional funds from the fire district, which then reduces
by a portion the amount that they're receiving.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: But if I understand you correctly, if we don't
-- according to the contract, we either terminate now or there's an
automatic extension of the contract? MS. FLAGG: Correct.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And it's already been determined by the fire
chiefs and by action from the North Naples Fire Control and Rescue
District that that contract is not acceptable?
MS. FLAGG: North Naples will not be participating, so that's why
we're canceling. They've taken it into their district. CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MS. FLAGG: It's part of their district now, and the fire chiefs
have met and agreed upon the new allocation amounts. So by not
canceling today, we're unable to cancel in effect.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: No. That's fine. I thought it was an
automatic extension.
I'm sorry, Commissioner Berry, did you have something?
COMMISSIONER BERRY: My first question when I read this, is if
this only affects, which it appears to really affect North Naples and
the Isle of Capri, why is the entire -- why is this canceled?
MS. FLAGG: Because the allocation amounts will change for East
Naples and Golden Gate also. In their current agreement, those
allocation amounts are going to be revised in the new agreement. The
way that the agreements are currently written, we have to revise that
language, because the dollar amounts in the current agreements are
going to be revised.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Further questions of Ms. Flagg? Yes,
Commissioner Mac'Kie.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I have some real fundamental questions. I
just don't understand how this works overall, forgive me, but in 1984
the board created a countywide HSTU?
MS. FLAGG: No, this is an HSTU for those areas -- they're paying
two mills for those people that are not currently located within an
existing fire direct.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And that's basically Ochopee?
MS. FLAGG: And the south estates.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I'd love -- when we get this back '-
MS. FLAGG: I'm going to bring you a map.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Okay. Because I'd like to know who's
paying the tax that we are now allocating or we are going to allocate
among the four districts instead of five?
MS. FLAGG: Okay. Let me show you who is paying this tax. The
-- where the 11 is, this is the Collier County Fire Control District.
This area here has now been incorporated into the North Naples
District, which is a four. Okay. So it's this area here, and this
area out here. That's the -- these -- the taxpayers who live in these
areas are paying the two mills to the county for the Collier County
Fire Control District.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And then the money that's collected, the
$265,000 that's collected, is spent by, presently by all five
districts?
MS. FLAGG: Currently, under the current agreement, it's the
money that is collected from these individuals, is 10,000 goes to the
North Naples District, which will now not be appropriate because this
is within their district. Six thousand goes to Isle of Capri and the
balance is equally divided amongst East Naples, Golden Gate and
Ochopee.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And that's because those districts then
provide service to the areas that are taxed?
MS. FLAGG: Correct. Those areas are providing service to these
areas based upon the proximity of their stations to those areas.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And that's under the Mutual Aid Agreement,
basically.
MS. FLAGG: Well, actually, it's under this agreement. There are
also Mutual Aid Agreements, but under this agreement, unlike Mutual
Aid Agreements, when you provide mutual aid you are not reimbursed for
your services. Under this agreement, they're actually receiving
reimbursement for providing the service.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And so what's been recognized is that the
Isle of Capri District -- the Isle of Capri -- is it a district? The
Isle of Capri Advisory Board has told the North Naples people we need
more of the money because we're providing a service that we're not
adequately compensated for?
MS. FLAGG: No. The North Naples issue is that they eliminated
-- they have taken in the Collier County Fire Control District into
their district. That's why we have to cancel that agreement.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And then it says something about '-
MS. FLAGG: And then --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: -- that the Isle of Capri Advisory Board
has requested a review of the apportionment of funds and preliminary
it shows that they're providing more service. MS. FLAGG: Right.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Tell me about that.
MS. FLAGG: The Isle of Capri Advisory Board indicated that the
service levels that they are providing to the Collier County Fire
Control District are in excess of the reimbursement they're receiving
to provide that service. When they looked at the NIFRS report, which
are the fire incident reports which allocates the service provided,
Ochopee provided 181 service calls. Golden Gate provided 103. Isle
of Capri provided 49, and East Naples provided 13.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So the split -- the future split of money,
what we're gonna see when we get the new contracts is going to be an
allocation of 265, based on these calls for service?
MS. FLAGG: What you'll see in the next contract, based upon the
consensus that's been reached among the chiefs, is that Isle of Capri
will receive 12 percent of the total dollars and then Ochopee, East
Naples, and Golden Gate will receive 29.33 percent.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Why would Ochopee with 181 calls get the
same amount of money as East Naples with 13 calls?
MS. FLAGG: East Naples felt that because they had to have
resources available and because they were there and ready to provide
protection, and they didn't feel that they could continue to stand
ready to provide protection, unless they received similar dollars to
what they had received in the past.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I guess the one thing that's important
to remember here is we're basing those on what the chiefs have
approved and, while I have the utmost respect to our chiefs,
commissioners have to agree to that and it's no different then our
staff trying to come up with an agreement, but ultimately the board
has to decide and, again, I'm just worried that if they haven't -- if
none of the fire commissioners have even seen this yet, we can back
ourselves in the corner.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And I'm troubled -- I don't understand why
they would agree, frankly. Why would the Ochopee Department agree to
give the same amount to East Naples when they're doing 181 versus 137
I mean, I bet there is some scale, but not even.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Have they objected to you on that number?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: No. That's the first time I understood
this number.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Yeah, I would leave it to them that if
they're unhappy with the funding amount that we will hear that in the
negotiations for a new contract, but you know, unless I'm -- unless
Ms. Flagg is misrepresenting something --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Of course not.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- we have two choices here today. One is to
take no action, which extends the existing contract, which already has
been changed by North Naples' decision to include areas into its
service area. The second option is to not renew and begin working on
a new contract, which we have to do. So I'm not sure we have a lot of
choices before us here.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: How long has the discussion been going
on?
MS. FLAGG: Three months, give or take.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Just one of the things I find
frustrating is whenever we come to the board and say, "We're asking
you to do this and you don't have any choice."
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Unannounced.
MS. FLAGG: Well, I didn't want to come to you until we had
reached an agreement at least with the chiefs, and it's my
understanding that the fire commissioners speak very highly of their
chiefs and are likely to follow their recommendation.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Fernandez.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Mr. Smykowski has reminded me that this issue was
discussed with the commission during your budget deliberations and, in
fact, the budget that's presently being considered reflects this
change.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. FERNANDEZ: So it's something you've already had before you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Commissioner Constantine, I mean, I
hear your frustration and so forth, what I'd like to do -- do we have
registered speakers on this?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Yes, we do. We have one.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Including Mr. McNees?
MR. MCNEES: Yeah. Mr. Chairman, if I may, Mike McNees from the
administrator's office. Just so you understand the staff's position
here, we're not really -- it may appear we're putting you in a box,
but the situation is, there's existing contracts out there based on a
given parcel of property and five participating districts. That's
changed now. There are only four participating districts. There's a
different parcel of property that represents a different revenue.
In order to craft a new arrangement to deal with the new
situation, we have to get rid of the old arrangement. That's all
we're asking you for today. None of the other dollars are you
committing to and the other districts will have the opportunity, and
as you will have the opportunity, to approve whatever the new
allocation is.
Now, there are some numbers on the table, but those haven't been
approved yet. In order to get to that point, you have to cancel the
old agreements, which has to be done because North Naples is now out
of it, and we have to get rid of the old structure. That's really --
it's as simple as that.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I agree, and I think there really isn't
much choice about the votes today, but what my question is, what if we
cancel these agreements and we can't come to a meeting of the minds on
a new agreement?
MR. MCNEES: Then you can keep all the money, if you want.
COHHISSIONER HAC'KIE: Well, what happens to fire service? What
happens --who provides the service?
MR. HCNEES: Well, you would then be in a position where you're
responsible as the governing board for Fire District One of taking
that money and finding a way to provide that service within the
district.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: We can hire Wackenhut.
MR. HCNEES: We'd have to come back to you with an option.
Frankly, I don't think that's a realistic scenario. We will come to
an agreement with the other fire districts --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So we're not '-
MR. HCNEES: -- and pretty much already have.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'll tell you what, let's try a novel concept,
let's listen to the speakers on this, which I think might have
something to do with the operation of the fire districts. I know I'm
kind of going out on a limb here.
MR. FERNANDEZ: The speaker is Mr. Don Peterson.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: He's got a shiny badge and a white shirt. My
guess is Don works for the service.
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Which one?
MR. PETERSON: Golden Gate. Good morning, commissioners. For
the record, my name is Don Peterson, fire chief, Golden Gate Fire
Control and Rescue District. This morning my only intent of being
here is to share with you, so you have a choice. We've run into this
situation in the past and the county has not had to notice us in the
past that they're terminating an agreement with us or any other
district.
Our concern was also of the situation had we not reached an
agreement, I can assure you that it is fully the intent of both
districts involved here, East Naples and Golden Gate, that that
protection will continue to be provided out there, regardless of
whether there's an agreement or not. We've worked through, over the
last years, through many issues of not receiving payments to whatever,
and we've never let that affect the people out there.
Predominantly, the biggest area we're talking about is south
block area. However, District One does cover a lot of the parameter
coastline, that is not in any particular fire district.
There have been in the past two other fire districts that have
opted out of this. We don't see the need to terminate -- notice us of
terminating the agreement. We can work through this. We've got --
staff of both agencies have exchanged agreements on this. We do need
legal review by both the county attorney's office and the fire
district's attorneys. That process in itself can be -- sometimes take
longer than all parties desire.
So, our intent, we do need to know though as districts, hopefully
prior to September 1 we reach this agreement, because we -- as both
agencies need to report funding in our budgets for next year. That's
our biggest obstacle that I see at this point, if there is one, is
that both entities can properly do that and do it for our public
workshops, when we do budgets for everybody.
So, other than that, I can share with you that we have always
worked through the obstacles. There is an issue with Isle of Capri.
We've attempted to try to work through that, but I have no doubt we're
going to be able to reach agreement on it.
Our concern, though, is just the noticing of the termination of
that agreement, that you-all understand that the fire districts
involved here still have the intent of reaching an agreement,
providing the services out there for the folks and that there are no
concerns out there. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you, Chief.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I've never -- I just want to be clear.
I've never had any concern that you guys would not respond
appropriately because you do and you do that regardless of whether,
you know, all the i's are dotted and we appreciate that.
My only question is as the collector of two and a -- a quarter
million dollars, are we allocating that money appropriately and I
guess the question -- that question is for another day.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think for someone other than us, like the
recipients. They're, you know --
COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, but we're the collector. So I think
we also have responsibility to be sure that the money is appropriately
spent.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I tend not to get into an argument with
parties that agree on how the money should be spent. I guess I
disagree with you there.
Another speaker, Mr. Fernandez?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No, that's all we have.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Motion to approve staff recommendation.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion and a second. Any discussion on the
motion?
Seeing none all those in favor signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
Motion carries five, zero.
Item #BE1
CONTRACT WITH VISIT NAPLES, INC. FOR A HAXIHUH OF $1,047,358 ECONOHIC
DISASTER RECOVERY PROGRAM, TOURIST DEVELOPMENT FUNDS AND EXPENDITURES
OF $6,850 FOR ANNUAL PREPARATION WORK - APPROVED
We are to item 8(E)(1), request to approve a contract with Visit
Naples, Inc. This is the disaster recovery program. The annual
expenditures to keep the program current. Have I missed anything, Ms.
Gansel?
MS. GANSEL: Good morning, commissioners. Jean Gansel from the
budget office. In February, you had reviewed the economic disaster
recovery plan for tourism and what we're asking today is approval of
the contract with Visit Naples.
I did want to point out that there were two items. The
advertising that would be required for the maximum amount of money has
increased since that February item which I brought forward and it's
approximately $84,000 more for the level one of advertising, and also,
during that discussion, the board had requested that the annual update
work that needed to be done would be put out for competitive bid.
Visit Naples had made some initial attempts to do that informally.
There was no response from anyone to do that. So that the annual
update work was being done with the, excuse me, the original
contractor.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: How do you define, and maybe John can
help with this, but how do you define informally seeing if there was
any interest in the --
MS. GANSEL: I'd prefer for Mr. Ayres to go over that.
MR. AYRES: I knew you'd ask me that question. I'm John Ayres,
I'm the president of Visit Naples, Inc. Informally, as Commissioner
Norris and I chatted a little bit earlier, this is kind of a unique
situation and we've touched on this situation before.
Generally speaking, when you go to an ad agency and you have a
specific project, they'll design a creative, which we already did, and
then they will go ahead and put together the advertising schedule that
accommodates that creative and that plan.
We've got a very unique animal here in that we've paid for the
creative on one hand and we've not had to update that and we've
reviewed it and it continues to look as good as it did when we did it,
but media changes and so now we have to come back and update the
insertion orders, insertion schedules for this plan, and the problem
that we had with Tweed (phonetic), who does some work for Marco, the
Zimmerman agency, which does PR for Marco, but are also in the
advertising business, and a gentleman who's an acquaintance of mine up
in Orlando, Anson Stoner (phonetic), which is another pretty good size
firm in the state.
The problem they all have is that they didn't do the creative,
and so when you suggest to them that they're going to then go out and
put together the insertion schedule for this plan, well, because they
didn't do the plan, they don't really know what they should be buying.
So it's a convoluted kind of a problem.
What I was explaining to Commissioner Norris is that we really
have four years where we didn't do much, but kind of just dusted off
the old insertion orders, and this year we took a bigger look at it
and, therefore, it cost us more than it probably might on a normal
basis.
We are endeavoring to come up with some kind of a plan that it
may be every four years or every five years, that we have to really
kind of rebuild it, but other than that, maybe what we can do is if
there's a publication that was on the schedule that's gone out of
business, we need to replace it. If there's a new publication that
comes along that might be good for us, we might add it, but try to get
ourselves down to, you know, spending as little on rebuilding this
thing as we can, but it's like starting over every year, and I'm not
sure -- I don't know that I have the answer for you, but I'm not sure
that rebuilding every year is what we need to do, but on the other
hand, we don't want to have a plan that we don't have ready to go in
the event we have a hurricane.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The reason for -- and I'm sorry, were you --
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: No, I'm fine.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The reason for an $83,000 increase and what
was identified in February 1997, is that a result of looking at new
rates of insertions, such as air time, media coverage, et cetera?
MR. AYRES: Again, those real dollars hadn't been increased or
improved since we did this in the beginning.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: But the parameters for the insertion schedule,
in other words the number of ads run, the maximum stayed the same, it
was just the cost of buying that time or that space that changed or
did you increase --
MR. AYRES: I think there's some new publications in there and
some better opportunities that are in that plan because it's an
entirely new plan, and we never went into this saying, "Well, we'll
spend a million dollars, let's see how much we can get." We went into
this saying, "If we have a catastrophe, what is our best professional
guesstimate that it's going to cost us to get the job done," and in
doing it this year, it was more.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Further questions for Mr. Ayres or staff? Do
we have any speakers on this?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We do not. I'll close the hearing. Do we
have a motion?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Motion to approve staff recommendation.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion and a second. Any discussion?
Seeing none, all those in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed?
Motion carries five, zero.
MS. GANSEL: Thank you, Commissioners.
Item #8E2
RESOLUTION 97-302, SETTING TUESDAY, SEPTEHBER 9, 1997 AT 6:00 P.H. AT
PELICAN BAY FOR A PUBLIC HEARING FOR APPROVING THE SPECIAL ASSESSMENT
AGAINST PROPERTIES WITHIN PELICAN BAY - ADOPTED
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We are to item 8(E)(2), which was an add on.
Resolution for Pelican Bay budget. Every year we --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Motion to approve.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. WARD: I need a date.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah, there's --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Several dates.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, there's several proposed but I do have a
memo here that I asked Ms. Filson to perform and looking at what is
free on everyone's schedules and it narrows it down to one date.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Yep.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Tuesday, September 9th at 6 p.m. Now,
understanding Tuesday is a regular, we can, of course, ask Mr.
Fernandez to keep the agenda on the lighter side to ensure that we are
done to make a six o'clock meeting for this HSTU, but that's the only
date that everyone's schedule had opened.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Motion to approve Tuesday, the 9th of
September.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: At 6 p.m.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: 6 p.m.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Is there any discussion on the motion?
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Where is this held?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: This is held at Hammock Park in Pelican Bay
just south of Vanderbilt Beach. It's where the new fire station is.
Right back there.
MR. WARD: We'll get you directions.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And a map.
THE COURT REPORTER: Your name, please?
MR. WARD: Jim Ward, I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Seeing no discussion, I'll call the question,
all those in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed?
Motion carries five, zero. Mr. Ward, thank you.
Something just came to mind I need to -- I'll do it on
communications with Mr. Fernandez, so -- I'm sorry, I'm thinking out
loud, my apologies.
Item #10A
UPDATE REGARDING ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS (PEIS) BY CHAIRMAN TIMOTHY L.
HANCOCK - FINAL REPORT TO BE BROUGHT BACK AUGUST 5, 1997
Next item is item 10(A),update regarding Army Corps of Engineers
PEIS Study.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, I thought last
week that we were going to have an update by our county attorney on
the Marco Health Care Property issue.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you. As a matter of fact, I expected
thats too. It was not on the agenda nor was it added on this morning.
MR. WEIGEL: No. I stated last week that I'd be bringing on
board communications -- I'd be bringing it up under board
communications, but I'm happy to break out and do it at any time as
far as that goes.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: That's fine, just as long as we do it
today.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Thank you for picking that up. What fI
want to do is give the board an update on the developments with the
proposed PEIS by the Army Corps of Engineers. I'm going to start off
with what I think are some positives.
We adopted, or basically emphasized, 10 points that were arrived
at by the EDC Chamber Coalition that were from a business standpoint
parameters by which any PEIS must follow. We as a board then added
three specific parameters to that. In the very first draft that I
received from the Army Corps of Engineers, made no bones about
including all 13 of that criteria in their plan.
So I think on the positive side, my meetings with them and what
we've seen on paper to date, shows an extreme willingness to include
what this board has requested as necessary elements of any study.
There are some things that need significant work.
I think, like anyone else, you know, we -- I'm into this very
wearily. There is a study called an ADID that was done down on the
Rookery Bay area, that if you've ever seen it, it came in with the
very similar premise of, "We just want to provide a tool. This is not
gonna increase regulation. This tool will help things go a lot
better, and go a lot faster," and if you look at it, basically
everything on the east side of Airport Road and south of 41 is all
wetland, and it's what they called category one wetland, which is not
to be disturbed with the exception of a handful of farm fields. That
ADID, which was never supposed regulatory, has popped up in a review
and has been referenced as a tool for determination by a state agency.
Those kinds of histories with state or federal agencies, I think
we are showing as a reluctance to believe that the result of this
could be better for our community than what is currently in place.
Nonetheless, a study is going to occur, and I believe we have the
opportunity here by being defined by the Corps as what is indicated as
a principal in this study to do two things. One is to have some level
of authority on the content and appointments that dictate the
direction of the study.
The second should be that we have the ability as a principal to
put a stop to forward progress at a point when any of the principles
that are agreed upon are not being met, are being jeopardized, and the
third is that the principals be limited to the Army Corps of
Engineers, the Lee County Commission, the Collier County Commission,
for the purpose of receiving or achieving a balance on what are the
two standing committees that are being proposed in this study.
If you read the initial proposal, this study will have two
standing committees that really do the yeoman's work and the
incorporation of information into the study. Those standing
committees, if they are not balanced, and by balanced, I mean you have
an environmentalist, you throw in a developer. You have a concerned
citizen, you throw in someone from the business community. What you
don't --
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: You throw in someone who doesn't care.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: No. The key being that what the Corps is
trying to achieve is a consensus and we know how difficult that is and
if we do not ensure -- have the authority to ensure that these
standing committees are balanced, what we are gonna end up with is
another ADID study, which, quite frankly, embarrassed some permitting
agencies when they saw it, because it was so lopsided and one-sided
that it was not workable, manageable, and actually, I think if you try
to put in a court of law it would get laughed out. It has not even
been approved, yet is being referenced in this state. So, we want to
make sure that doesn't happen.
I think the Corps' intentions here and the people I've dealt
with, Mr. Pike, Mr. Hall, Colonel Rice and others, their intentions, I
think, are honest and straightforward. The problem is in the devils
and the details. How does it materialize, unless we have authority in
determining how it materializes, then I think we are turning the study
over in an area that is not in the best interest of our citizens.
What I will do, and there's -- there is one other thing I wanted
to point out. The initial draft had a comment in here that -- two
comments that seem to conflict. One is that the growth management
plan of each county will be used as the basis for information in which
to conduct the study. Yet later it says that at the conclusion of the
study, each government shall amend it's comp plan to reflect the study
results.
The idea of comprehensive planning is local governments and their
constituents know best what is in the interest of their community. We
will not and should not give up that ability or commit, at any point,
to amend our comprehensive plan to meet the results of an unknown
study.
I don't think there's going to be any argument from you guys on
that, but that was one thing that I think caused a lot of concern, but
again I want to say the folks I've talked to in the Corps are not
digging their heels in on any of these points.
What we're looking for is something that's agreeable as a
reasonable goal for everyone. If we can accomplish that, and we are
in fact a principal with some authority and the direction and
appointments in the study, I think we're in the best position we can
be in.
Next week I will bring back to you, hopefully, a draft agreement
with -- whether it be strike through, underline, or just a total draft
agreement, that it is my goal to have the Lee County Commission and
this board agree on the principles and the goals and then to withhold
judgment until the study parameters are specifically defined and
presented.
At that point, we as principals, again, would have the decision
whether to move forward or whether the study parameters themselves are
not in the benefit of our community. That's kind of the most
up-to-date information I have right now. I'm as optimistic as I can
be, but I'm equally cautious on all of these elements. Commissioner Hac'Kie, first.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Actually, you addressed the issue I had.
My most important comment is that we have, perhaps, as a goal, to
review our comprehensive plan in concert with the outcome of the
study, but not a commitment that we shall amend the comp plan. That
was my strongest objection.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Norris.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: You're not indicating, Mr. Chairman, that
we would never put this into our comp plan under any circumstances,
but rather we want to see the finished product before we make that
decision; is that correct?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Precisely. I also fear that putting the comp
statement in here gives a direction that was unintended. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Sure.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The direction was to streamline the process.
What does that have to do with our comp plan?
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Right. The other suggestion is that if
we're going to try to cooperate with Lee County on this in a specific
direction, perhaps it would be worthwhile to have a meeting, a joint
meeting with Lee County and discuss this issue in a little more depth.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Agreed, and what I envisioned is, the initial
document isn't going to be detailed. It's going to incorporate what
we have set forth as goals to protect the -- both private property
rights and environmental interests in Collier County. Those goals
themselves will turn up in the specific parameters of the study and
before anyone signs on to those parameters, if that's what we choose
to do, I think a joint meeting with Lee County commissioners is a
super idea, and that would probably -- about two months from now is
when those parameters will be developed, so it would give us the time
to set up a joint meeting with them and discuss the details of the
study.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: One of the points that was made when
this item first came up was we have pretty limited authority to object
to a study being done in the first place. My question is, and you may
or may not be able to answer this today, but at least for next week,
should we have objections or concerns as we go along with the process,
or as you said, if these parameters aren't being met, we'll have the
ability to stop that. Under what authority and in what venue, if we
disagree with the Corps whether or not those parameters are being in
broken, what venue do we handle that disagreement?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Without wordsmithing that let me give you the
general parameters that I foresee, and that is there are three parties
to this agreement initially, and there are a lot of cooperating
agencies and people who have interest to sit on committees, I'm not
excluding them, but the fact is there are three principals, and those
principals being the Corps, the Lee County Commission, and the Collier
County Commission.
The reason any one of those three entities should have equal and
level authority in calling into question anything that's documented is
because we're the three that should sign it or agree to it in
principle as substantial parameters. If the Corps is saying, "We want
your input, yet you will have no authority to enforce what we agree
upon," then I think we get -- we are being sent a very clear message
that we're not needed and that our input is not important.
I'm not sensing that. What I'm sensing is just the opposite.
That we are needed. That our input is critical, and that they will be
willing to grant equal authority regarding the meeting of the study
parameters to us. If they're not, then I think that's a signal we all
have concern about.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: But they may agree to that up front,
but I'm saying if we get halfway through the study and we think the
spirit of some of the parameters is not being met and they believe
that they are, is there an entity that will settle that disagreement?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'm sure our senators and congressmen will be
upset if an agreement that is signed by those parties is breached by a
federal agency. You know, do -- you're right. The ultimate -- who
does the ultimate authority rest with? It rests with the Army Corps
of Engineers. They can do whatever study they want, but at some point
you have to determine whether or not it's worth a good faith effort if
everyone agrees on principle at the outset to be involved. So, you're
right. I don't think we ultimately hold the hammer here, but I feel
-- I sense that we're being given or the opportunity to be given
authority in the direction of this study and we should take advantage
of it.
Commissioner Berry.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: I don't see that there's anything that we
can do. I mean, they're going to have a study. Let's be a part of
deciding how and what direction we're gonna go.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think there's some things that we eventually
can set as goals to come out of this, and the one entity or the one
group of people we need at the table are people that do permitting for
a living, because as I told the Army Corps folks in a meeting just a
couple days ago, those are the people that can either verify what the
Corps is saying to the balance of the group or challenge it, because
they deal with the hoops every single day and they are good
representatives of the private property owners because that's who
hires them to get through all what the existing permitting hurdles
are.
So we need the permitting community to step forward and be a
voice of reason, if you will, because you and I don't apply for
nationwide permits every day. They do, and whether the process should
be streamlined or made better, they're the best judge of. So I'll be
requesting individuals from that community to serve. Commissioner Mac'Kie.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And just in addition to that. I think
another important component that I asked the folks from the Corps when
I met with them to include is maybe representatives from a grass roots
group like the president's council or someone who's not in the
permitting business, but is in the living in Collier County business
and wants to see how this is gonna affect, you know, living in Collier
County, as opposed to the permitting folks. So I'd ask them to get in
touch with president's council as a representative of just sort of
grass roots community to include them in the process as well.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We want to be careful that these two standing
committees don't get unwieldy. We've seen that happen in studies
before. You get 40 people on a standing committee and nothing gets
done.
There have been discussions of professional facilitators. I
think if we keep the standing committees at 20 or fewer people, we're
not gonna get every single interest at the table in the standing
committees. It's physically impossible, but I think we just, again,
if we achieve that balance of interest, we're gonna have a product
that can benefit the community.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: But you're not suggesting the president's
council is a bad inclusion?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Not at all.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Not at all. I'm just saying we need to define
that, and not start dragging groups or enticing groups into it before
what we know what their role could be is what I'm saying, whether it
be the president's council or Audubon Society or anyone else.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: I think that was my concern when I looked at
some of the groups that had agreed to sign on here.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Sort of one-sided it seemed to me. A lot
of special interest and not very much general interest, and that's why
I was looking for some -- president's council was my best idea as a
general population kind of participant, among the others.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The notes I made there, you know, we need -- I
mean, let's face it, builders or developers are a part of the balance.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Of course.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: They employ a lot of people in this community,
but equal to that balance is someone whose interest is solely
environmental. Again, that's the balance we need to see, so that the
committee is diverse but not unwieldy.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And then just regular folks.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Regular folks.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And so that's what I was hoping
president's council could help bring to the table. Hopefully, they'll
agree.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Again, I think it's too early to name groups
that make up those, but I'm sure there will be room for participation
and when we bring it back next week, we're still not gonna have that
level of specificity. That will come two months down the road when
the parameters are developed and I, again, have said, I wouldn't ask
this board to sign on to anything until the specific parameters of the
project and the study are before us. Once we have that, we then have
something tangible to comment on. Otherwise, we're just agreeing on
principles. That, I think we can do, hopefully next week and go
beyond that for a two-month stint down the road.
Do we have any speakers on this, Mr. Fernandez?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Yes, we do.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Speakers on my update?
MR. FERNANDEZ: We have Mary Dunavan and Glen Dunavan, and one
more.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Understand, folks, the board is taking no
action today, other than hearing back a final report next week and
there's no specific content at this point other than a draft
agreement, so there's not a lot of action to be taken today.
MS. DUNAVAN: Okay. I'm Mary Dunavan and I am speaking for TAG
today, the Taxpayers' Action Group. As you notice, the ones that
usually speak are on vacation. So I would like to read a resolution
from TAG, July the 12th, 1997.
Be it resolved that the Taxpayers' Action Group opposes the U.S.
Army Corps of Engineers, Colonel Rice's Programmatic Environmental
Impact Statement study, which is PEIS, appearing before the Collier
County Board of Commissioners.
Whereas, Colonel Rice's white paper states that he will
incorporate numerous studies to form a master plan, and one of these
studies is the governor's commission on sustainable South Florida.
The study recommends that the state legislature should authorize
counties to enact without a referendum up to a one cent countywide
sales tax for each of the next 10 years to capitalize funding pools to
support infill development and redevelopment and otherwise assist in
funding the implementation of the recommendation of the governor's
commission.
Whereas, the recommendations of the governor's commission
includes: Number one, an increase in the density of multi-family
residencies in urban areas.
Number two, location of all residences within a five minute
walking or biking distance of town centers, schools, community
attractions.
Number three, FDOT to prepare and submit legislation authorizing
regional transportation funding authority.
Number four, legislation should provide for a new dedicated
source of funding for the authorities which could come from a regional
gas tax, regional sales tax, regional agreement financing district or
some other source or combination of funding sources.
Whereas, the entire report seems intended to reverse long time
low density housing desirability, the use of automobiles, the freedom
of movement afforded by an automobile dependent society.
Whereas, the intent is to tax automobiles to pay for public
transit and other new taxes and layers of government and for new
regulations foreign to our way of life in south Florida.
Even the term sustainability is defined as sustainability can be
looked at as an ecological constraint on human activities and a way to
make deliberate ethical decisions to ensure that future generations
meet their own needs.
Therefore, let it be resolved that the Taxpayers' Action Group of
Collier County opposes the PEIS agreement with the U.S. Army Corps of
Engineers and asks the Collier County Board of Commissioners not to
enter into this agreement, and as a citizen -- speaking as a citizen
now, not as TAG, but I have a lot of studies. I also have a briefcase
full of studies that I have not been able to get into and recently I
attended a meeting of Southwest Coast Eco System and Management Area
Team met at the Natural Resources Center out on Immokalee Road, and by
the way, if you do not know it, this is ongoing.
The studies are ongoing, and you have county representatives
sitting on these meetings, some of the planning departments and some
of the others. I do not have their names. I don't have a list of the
people that are meeting, but there were 35 people at this meeting, and
they break up into sub-teams. There is no way I can possibly attend
all these meetings by government. These are government and
environmentalists and some are your forestry and like that.
So when you're talking about this study from Colonel Rice, I
believe it's a huge thing that will be -- the real things will not be
brought out to you. Thank you.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Mr. Glen Dunavan and then Nettie Phillips.
MR. DUNAVAN: Good morning, county board members, Chairman
Hancock. I'm Glen Dunavan and president of Citizens for
Constitutional Property Rights. I thank you for letting me address
you today.
The programatic environmental impact statement as proposed by
Colonel Rice on behalf of the Army Corps of Engineers, according to
his white paper, will be comprised of studies already made. One of
these studies named is the governor's commission on sustainable South
Florida. It's 186 pages and here it is. This is one of the 200.
Now, you've mentioned one. This is one of 200. You haven't mentioned
the rest of them. There's over 200 of these studies and I feel that
unless the county board has studied all 200 of these reports, which
Colonel Rice intends to incorporate in his plan for Collier County, I
don't think you should enter into any kind of agreement with it.
Of course, you said there's going to be an agreement whether we
enter into or not, as Pam said, but you and I have both seen a lot of
agreements that they planned on us having that didn't materialize
because there was an uproar from the community that said they didn't
want them, and eventually, we didn't get them.
So this is what we're concerned with today. Here's some of the
quotes from this sustainable South Florida, which like I say is one of
the 200. Sustainability can be looked on as an ecological constraint
on human activity as Mary -- another idiotic statement such as this,
on page 180 -- on 108. Although the ability to get along without
automobiles in South Florida is quickly disappearing, proper urban
design can help preserve this trend. I ask you, when in South Florida
were we able to do without the automobile? Well, I'll tell you
when --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: 1910, I think.
MR. DUNAVAN: Pardon?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: 1910.
MR. DUNAVAN: Yes, that's when we had horse power, and I suppose
that's what they're intending on going back to. I don't know. Just
before this is another idiotic statement, continue expansion of
highway lines to increase capacity, reduce congestion and maintain
acceptable levels of service, make public transit a more difficult
option to implement. Well, yeah, I guess it would.
On page 78, it refers to urban sprawl, meaning scattered
decentralized low density development. This results in depletion of
natural resources and an automobile dependent society. Again, they're
gonna take our automobiles away.
You might say people are not going along with losing the ability
to have a single family dwelling on a few acres, which is what this
means, well, on page 33, line 10, it states this is how to bring about
change that will affect Floridians today and tomorrow in a manner that
will ensure quality community development both economically and
ecologically.
On page 31, a global forum, not elaborated on who they were
except that they were from around the world, developed gross -- grass
roots initiative designed to monitor government and push sustainable
-- sustainability efforts beyond what government processors were able
to do.
In other words, here is a world body going to enforce world
regulations that local government can't. This all came about from the
U.N. Earth Summit in 1992. One of the five documents designed --
signed was agenda 21. On line 43, agenda 21 is a means of enforcing
-- of forcing, forcing now, the integration of environmental, economic
and social planning at the state level and that it should be used as a
tool for reconciling economic, environmental and development tensions
and conflicts.
I draw your attention again to forcing, which means using force,
so that will take care of the people who might not want to go along
with the plan. This is just two of over 200 studies to be adopted.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Dunavan?
MR. DUNAVAN: If you haven't studied all these, you should not
even consider --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Excuse me, Glen, that was your five minutes.
You need to finish up.
MR. DUNAVAN: Okay. So I thank you for letting me speak.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you, Glen.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Next speaker is Nettie Phillips.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: As much as I think we can agree that there
have been studies at times that have said things that are not in the
best interest of this community the one difference here is that we're
being asked to be a part of a study.
We were never asked nor told that our input was even important in
the study you cite, so that goes over the right shoulder and in the
trash can after I get through the first three pages, because it had
nothing to do with this community. We were not asked to be a part of
it, so I agree with you there. That may be a difference here. We'll
know in the short term, and again, I've got to ask, let's come back
into this Army Corps study. Let's not get too far afield from that.
MS. PHILLIPS: Again, for the record, my name is Nettie Phillips,
speaking as a private property owner. Earth Summit 21, agenda 21,
this is the world sustainable community development that they've come
up with. It's a United Nations agenda.
I support TAG's opposition to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers,
Colonel Rice's Programmatic Environmental Impact Statement Study,
PEIS, appearing before the Board of Collier County Commissioners.
Collier County and state government does not have to implement
federal and United Nations agendas against Collier County and the
State of Florida.
To the Board of County Commissioners, I personally am holding my
constitutional government accountable for our freedom and rights in
this country. You are the breach to tyranny and a dictatorship in the
United States. You and the state. You are it.
Agenda 21, a program of action for sustainable development.
Declaration on environment and development. The final text of
agreements negotiated by government at the United Nations conference
on environment and development, June 3 through the 14th, 1992, Rio de
Janeiro, Brazil. It all ties together. Conventional and biological
diversity, a system of protected areas under article 25 of the global
bio-diversity assessment and the world resources. There's 1200 pages
to that.
Under the global bio-diversity agreement of almost a thousand
pages, we get the core areas, the buffers, and the sustainable
community. From the biosphere we get the core areas, which comes from
the Wild Lands Project of 1992. We can thank Reese Noss for that, the
Nature's Conservancy, the Audubon Society and the Sierra Club.
In America the core habitat will be 50 percent. No human
intrusion. Buffer zones, 25 percent. Limited use with permits.
Twenty-five percent sustainable communities. Back to the agrarian age
of the 1400's.
Clinton created the commission on sustainable development by
executive order in 1993. The information comes from the government
printing office on sustainable America.
We are dealing with the environmental agenda coming down through
the United Nations. The common man is not accredited with United
Nations and un-American activity to our constitutional republic,
American Sovereignty, constitutional property rights, our freedoms in
opposition to slavery or a dictatorship as we have in the other
countries of the world.
However, the environmental organizations are accredited with the
United Nations. We are dealing with the environmental agenda coming
down through the United Nations by the way of NGO's, non-government
organizations telling our supposed constitutional government what to
do. They setup agendas and maneuver our government to agendas.
Let's go back to resources. Private property taken for parks and
preserves. Colonel Rice agrees to this because I have it on video.
When we take the parks and preserves from the -- when we take the
private land from the citizens and we turn it into parks and
preserves, we say we're going to sustain this for your use, for your
children and your grandchildren's. Guess what, 68 percent of the
parks and preserves are turned over to the United Nations and controls
and agendas through biosphere and heritage sites taken away from
American property owners. This is American resources given away
through biosphere and heritage sites. This is un-American.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Can we reel this back to the topic at
hand before your five minutes are up?
MS. PHILLIPS: Yes, this is all to do with a sustainable
communities, which comes from the eco-system management areas, which
comes -- all of this from the United Nations, and why are we having to
go through an agenda that's a U.N. agenda? I mean, I just gave
you-all the documents where the sustainable development comes from.
It's all in this agenda.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And I'm sorry, Ms. Phillips, when was the last
time this board approved sustainable Southwest Florida as a part of
our comp plan?
MS. PHILLIPS: Commissioner?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Just answer the question, please. Did we ever
adopt that?
MS. PHILLIPS: Commissioner, I believe we have five minutes to
tell you why we would like for our board not to support certain
issues, and support the property owners, and when you go to these
meetings with Colonel Rice, et cetera, there is an agenda and they may
give you 10 items, but I can assure you through -- going through all
of their documents, that if you come up with three or four, it's gonna
maneuver right back to their agenda. I mean, you look like you're
participating. At the eco-systems management area just a few days
back, we went to that. Guess what, this is basically NGO's with some
government. The public usually doesn't even acknowledge --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Ms. Phillips, was that a yes or no? I mean, I
just asked you a simple question.
MS. PHILLIPS: I don't have all the documents to give the date on
when you do or do not do something. We're just asking you as public
citizens not to go along with certain agendas. CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
A VOICE: I can answer that.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: You cannot, sir. It's out of order. I'm
sorry. Thank you.
MS. PHILLIPS: Well, I'm not an attorney. So I didn't bring a
lot of legal documents. I just brought the one book that has all of
this information in this agenda.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yes, Ms. Phillips, and no one on this board
has ever been asked to adopt, approve or implement anything in that
book nor have we and that's my point.
MS. PHILLIPS: Well, the point is when you do have these
meetings, there is an agenda and if there's 10 items on there or 50 --
or 15, they may take two or three of the items off, but before the
deal is over, they maneuver the government back to their agenda.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you, Ms. Phillips.
I'm sorry, Glen, you had your time, and that's -- we can't let
people come back up. I appreciate it, but -- MR. DUNAVAN: Well, I can explain.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: No, we can't have comments from the audience
because the court reporter can't get them on the record, Glen. Thank
you. I appreciate it, but, you know, make an appointment with me. We
can talk about it then.
MR. FERNANDEZ: We have no other speakers on this subject.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. This requires no action by the board,
other than unless there is --
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: You can bring it back next week.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yes, I'll bring it back next week in some form
of general principle agreement, hopefully, and we'll get a chance to
act on it then. Okay.
What we have is we're coming up on the noon hour. I counted and
we have seven public hearing items after public hearing comment today.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'm gonna ask the board that we -- we
humor me by working through the lunch hour. I got a couple of things
I need to try to achieve before the end of the business day, that if
we take an hour, an hour and 15 minute break, it will be tougher to
achieve by the end of the business day. I think other than backflow,
all the other items should go pretty quick. They're seven and a half
foot variances. Four point five acres of property.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: What time do we have a replacement for the
court reporter coming?
THE COURT REPORTER: One o'clock.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Let's do this. Let's go ahead through public
comment and unless the board objects, we'll continue and take a recess
for the court reporter change at one o'clock.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I appreciate it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I haven't heard an objection, so I assume
that's an acceptable path. Okay.
Public comments, Mr. Fernandez.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Mr. Chairman, before we take general public
comment, I'd just like to announce that Mr. John Farquhar has asked to
speak on an issue that has been continued.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Please -- I'm sorry, there's another
item before public comment. Please go ahead with that. I know you
had some folks that had registered.
MR. FERNANDEZ: And one Harilyn R. Bell asked to speak on an item
that is to be continued. She's also asked to speak on a public
comment item.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. That's allowable under public comment,
but if the item's been continued it won't be called, so they need to
register differently if they wish to be heard.
Item #10B
DISCUSSION REGARDING THE REQUEST FOR RECONSIDERATION OF THE UTILITY
REGULATION ORDINANCE - TO BE BROUGHT BACK ON AUGUST 5, 1997
Actually, there was an add on system item, item 10(B), discussion
regarding requirements for reconsideration of utility regulation
ordinance by Commissioner Constantine.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, last week we did the
utility regulation ordinance. Two things. One, we gave preference to
those people who actually live in the areas that are being regulated
and we gave two extra seats right now, three prior to last week, three
seats were given preference for those who had some level of expertise.
I just misread the item. I thought we had removed that and I'm
just gonna bring it back for reconsideration. I had no comment last
week because I misread the item and that's completely my fault, but we
had some discussion as to whether to make all five of those have
requirements, for some expertise or whether to have regular lay people
have some representation on there, and I thought we had taken that one
portion out and I just simply misread the item. So I'll bring that
back, but under our law I need to do that with six days' notice before
it appears on the agenda, so I'll do it next week, but I wanted to let
you-all know what was coming up and why.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. All right. With that, we are to --
nothing under constitutional officers, so we'll go to public comment.
How many do we have?
PUBLIC COHMENT - HARILYN BELL RE AGENDA CHANGES
MR. FERNANDEZ: We have one public comment.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Harilyn Bell.
MS. BELL: My name is Harilyn Bell and I'm a citizen here of
Naples. I noticed on the agenda there was a recommendation to
consider the application by Media One Enterprises and then it was
canceled when I got here this morning.
Now, if someone hadn't told me this, I would have sat here all
day waiting for it. Is there any way that you people can put some
kind of a board outside that lets citizens know what has been
canceled, so that they're not sitting here all day?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That's not a bad idea because unless you're
here at the beginning of the meeting -- it is announced at the
beginning of the meeting on all items that have been continued, but if
you're here 10 minutes after 9, Mr. Fernandez, that doesn't sound like
a bad idea.
MR. FERNANDEZ: We'll work something out to do that.
MS. BELL: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That's the kind of public comment I like.
Constructive. Anything else?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No other speakers registered.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Were we gonna let those other people speak
during public comment?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Not unless they filed under public comment,
which is kind of the way we do things here. You fill out a slip if
you want to speak
Okay. We are to item 12(A), under advertised public hearings.
I'll tell you what, just for the court reporter, let's take five quick
minutes. Give her a little bit of a break and we'll be right back.
(Whereupon, a break was taken from 11:55 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.)
Item #12A1
PETITION CP-97-1, HARTIN D. PINCKNEY, P.E., REPRESENTING HARTIN
FRIHBERGER/AMYJERDE, REQUESTING A SHALL SCALE AMENDMENT TO THE MARCO
ISLAND FUTURE LAND USE HAP OF THE GROWTH MANAGEMENT PLAN, TO CHANGE THE
LAND USE DESIGNATION FROM LOW DENSITY RESIDENTIALL TO COHMUNITY
COHMERCIAL ON .54 ACRES OF PROPERTY - DENIED
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Good afternoon. We're going to reconvene the
Board of County Commissioners after that brief dexterity break. Item
-- can I have your attention, folks? Item 12(A), under comprehensive
plan amendments, Petition CP-97-1, Martin Pinckney, representing
Martin Frimberger, Amy Jerde. This is a small scale amendment on
Marco. Let me ask this, would all members of the Petitioner's team,
the public and staff that are here on this item please stand and raise
your right hand and be sworn in. Madam court reporter, would you
please swear them in?
(All speakers on this issue were sworn.)
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. Chairman, before we start on this item,
let's recall that we have spent two and a half years or more on Marco
Island getting a Master Plan put together and putting it through the
county -- the planning commission and the county commission, the DCA,
and for us to come in and start modifying the plan, I think is just
not in the best interest of all the process that we've gone through in
the first place. I'm certainly willing to hear the proposal, but this
is really not in line with the two and a half to three year effort
that we put in previously to get where we were.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The Master Plan is how many months old?
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Not very many, and there have been all
these years of opportunity for someone to make this request while the
plan was being formulated. So it's going to be very difficult for me
to try to support any kind of modification to the plan at this point
in time.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Understood, but you know in fairness --
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I just wanted to make that known to staff.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. We need to hear the issue and we'll
start with staff presentation.
MS. PRESTON: For the record, Debrah Preston, senior planner with
the comprehensive planning section. The item before you today is to
amend the Marco Island Future Land Use Hap, which is part of the Marco
Island Master Plan, from low density residential to community
commercial.
The petition is a small scale amendment because it is less than
10 acres and there are no proposed changes to the goals, policies or
objectives of the plan.
Martin Pinckney is representing Martin Frimberger and Amy Jerde
who are requesting to change the land use designation from low density
residential to community commercial on .54 acres.
The amendment is necessary in order for the petitioner to apply
for a rezoning for the property from RSF-4 to C-1 to accommodate a
parking lot. The commercial -- which is the commercial professional
district. However, the subject of this hearing is only to consider
the appropriateness of the land use change for the subject site, and
to see if it meets the intent of the Marco Island Master Plan.
At this point, I'd like to go to the Future Land Use Hap and show
you the subject site and the surrounding property.
The subject site is lots 10, 11 and 12, which face on Marco Road.
Lot 10 is currently vacant and zoned RSF-4. Lots 11 and 12 have a
single family unit on it, which is used as a day care facility and has
a conditional use permit on that day care since 1985. Next door to
the subject site is lots 7, 8 and 9, which are currently vacant, were
included in community commercial district at the time of the adoption
hearing, and the owner of that property has submitted a fezone
petition to go to C-1.
Next to that property is C-1 zoning. The medical facility is
there and the fire station is also there. Directly behind the subject
property is vacant residential property zoned RSF-4.
There is a single family built house on the remainder of lot 12
and lot 13. The rest of the property across the street is vacant
property zoned RSF-4 and within the low density residential district,
and there is a built RMF facility across the street from the subject
site.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Am I correct in looking at this, that there is
no commercial development of C-2 or greater adjacent to this lot? MS. PRESTON: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: So this is, in essence, a C-1 use surrounded
by vacant or built residential single family uses?
MS. PRESTON: Yes, except for the multi-family right across the
street.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Across the street. I'm sorry. Please
continue.
MS. PRESTON: The community commercial district in the Marco
Island Master Plan does not specify the zoning districts that are
permitted. The community commercial district as stated in the Marco
Island Master Plan is to provide for centers of activity that serve
the needs of the surrounding community.
It is staff's recommendation to adopt the small scale amendment
to the Marco Island Future Land Use Map of the Marco Island Master
Plan by ordinance and forward that to DCA for its review to find out
if it is in compliance.
Staff further recommends that the amendment be approved
contingent on the property owner's willingness to fezone the property
to low intensity commercial or C-i, and that adequate buffering be
required along the east portion of the property to buffer single
family dwelling units and to the rear of the property, so that any new
development would also be buffered from the day care facility.
Staff also recommends that the Marco Island overlay district that
was adopted into the LDC not too long ago be amended to include this
property as part of the community center districts subdistrict and
that we add into that some architectural design guidelines to make
sure that the residential character of that commercial development
would be maintained.
If you have questions at this time, I'd be more than happy to
answer them and the petitioner is also available.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Any questions of staff? Seeing none, let's go
to the petitioner.
MR. PINCKNEY: For the record, my name is Martin Pinckney of
American Engineering Consultants, representing Martin Frimberger and
Amy Jerde. I appreciate Ms. Preston's presentation.
I don't -- what I really -- the only thing I really want to add
is that we feel that this amendment of the plan, which would allow a
fezone to community commercial, is consistent with the fezone
application of the property adjacent to that to the west and the other
existing community commercial property on the corner and surrounding
this intersection and also consistent with the use of the property as
a conditional use for the past 12 years.
I would also -- I would be willing to entertain any questions or
-- from the board at this --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Pinckney, did you say that the property's
been used as a conditional use for 12 years?
MR. PINCKNEY: Well, I understand it has been from -- since 1985,
it has had been a conditional provisional use as a day care center.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And has it operated as such?
MR. PINCKNEY: Yes, I believe it has.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And this is the sub parcel we're talking
about?
MR. PINCKNEY: The subject parcels, there's one -- approximately
one and a half lots, which have the day care center located on it
since that time and the other vacant lot that's between -- to the west
of that, between that and the property that's currently under
application for fezone is -- that's vacant. That one parcel's vacant,
which would be -- the petitioner's plan at the present would be to
expand that parking lot onto that lot for the day care center.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Was it, Ms. Preston?
MS. PRESTON: I'm sorry, repeat the question.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: An application has been made for fezone in the
immediate area also; is that true?
MS. PRESTON: For lots 7, 8, 9, that property is vacant right
now. It's just to the west of the subject site and they've come in
for a C-1 fezone application with the intent to put in some medical
offices.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And that meets the Marco Island Master
Plan, because it's in the commercial --
MS. PRESTON: The community commercial district.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: -- community commercial. And the property
that we're looking at today, though, is the next three lots? MS. PRESTON: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And one and a half of those three lots has
a conditional use for a day care and they want to expand the day care
or just to add parking; which is it?
MS. PRESTON: I believe it is just to add parking on lot 10 which
is currently vacant.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Which they can do under conditional use.
MS. PRESTON: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: But by requesting a C-1 zoning that may very
well change the value of the property, not to mention the potential
uses.
MS. PRESTON: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: The problem I have is C-1 zoning has long been
a transitional zoning district from residential uses to higher
intensity commercial. This doesn't meet that criteria. This is
basically stand alone, C-1 type zoning. If they wish to increase the
parking area for the day care center a conditional use would be
appropriate, but C-1 zoning that commits this property to a breadth of
other uses, when there's no transitional need in the immediate area,
to me is just not consistent.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: But if the -- a big assumption, of course,
it may just be that they are out ahead of the curve, but if the three
lots to their west were approved, in their C-1 application, then it
would just be a continuation.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Right, but it's a leap frog continuation in a
sense.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Well, if those three -- if I've got my map
right.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I understand what you're saying.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. ANd they're gonna be hard-pressed
to turn down the C-1 fezone when it's within the community commercial
district and then we're talking about an existing commercial use
immediately adjacent to those, what is in all likelihood will be C-1.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, you've got to remember the intent of
C-i, again, is not to have strips of C-1. That's basically become
strip-zoning.
So the intent of C-1 was those parcels that may not be wholly
appropriate for solely residential use can have a residential
appearance, a lower impact than a higher intensity commercial, but
meld in and create the transition.
What you're talking about is a de facto extension. If we approve
these three, we might as well approve the next five.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And the next 10 and the next 20.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And the next thing you know, that logic is
it's a strip of C-1 without any real basis for it. So I --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: What's the staff rationale for
recommending approval?
MS. PRESTON: Well, that it is -- has been a day care center and
if it remains a day care center, which the petitioner has said that
that's what his intent is, that it would just carry on that C-1 zoning
and that the next lot, the rest of 12 and 13, does have a single
family home on it, so that would be the end of any further development
of commercial use.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: We could accomplish the parking center
expansion with a conditional application under the existing
designation, and that's where it sounds to me like we ought to go.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: If that's the intent, I think that was a
procedural error on the applicant or petitioner's part.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Probably, I mean -- they're trying to
change --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Let's take thirty seconds.
(A brief recess was taken.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Let's reconvene the meeting.
Are there any other speakers on this, Mr. Fernandez? Does anyone
have any more questions for the petitioner?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Oh. I'm sorry. There is one. Art Segal.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Mr. Pinckney, thank you.
Mr. Segal, are you here? There you are.
MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. Mr. Segal had to go.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. We'll need you on the microphone so the
court reporter can get it. Thank you.
MR. PATTERSON: My name is William Patterson. I'm with the Marco
Island Civic Association. Art Segal had to take his wife to the
doctor and I'll speak for him.
I think you're being mislead a little bit on the additional --
the applicant for the dental office next door. The dental office also
includes one lot on the next street over, which is Tahiti, I believe.
Yeah. Lot 29 on Tahiti. I don't believe that would be -- he would
have adequate parking if he were not allowed to have that lot on
Tahiti.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Are you saying that that would be across
the street on Tahiti?
MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. It'll be on the next street over. It'll
back up to -- so I don't think that would be approved, so I think
you're -- we're talking about a --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: That's important.
MR. PATTERSON: Yes. -- re-zoning something that's -- that
wouldn't work anyway. So we're opposed to it by spot zoning in that
the property next door would not be approved at this time.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: For the record, I did receive a letter from
the Marco Island Civic Association stating that position and I don't
know of any other correspondence I have on this item.
Commissioner Norris, would you enter that for the record?
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I sure can.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you. Any questions?
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I'm sorry. I just, you know, there's two
reasons why this --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'll close the public hearing.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. There's two reasons why this should
not be approved today. Actually, three.
The first one is that, as you pointed out, you would have to
start extending the Marco Island zoning overlay, which we've already
gone through for all this period.
Second of all, this can be accomplished without, without going
through this process, also as you pointed out, with a conditional use.
And the third thing is, if it's re-zoned to C-i, it's C-1 for the
future and something else could be put in there at some other point in
time, which wouldn't be the purpose of what we're asking for now.
for those reasons I make a motion to deny. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion and second. Is there a discussion on
the motion?
Seeing none. All those in favor signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you, Miss Preston.
Item #12C3
ORDINANCE 97-33, BACKFLOW CROSS-CONNECTION CONTROL ORDINANCE FOR THE
COLLIER COUNTY WATER/SEWER AND GOODLAND WATER DISTRICT - ADOPTED
UTILIZING OPTION FOUR
We are to item-- let's see. 12(C) (1) was continued, (C) (2) was
continued. Item 12 (C)(3), recommendation to adopt a Backflow
Cross-Connection Control Ordinance for the Collier County Water/Sewer
and Goodland Water District.
Mr. Ilschner, good afternoon.
MR. ILSCHNER: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, commissioners.
For the record, Ed Ilschner, Public Works Administrator,
I-L-S-C-H-N-E-R.
We're bringing today an ordinance that we brought to you
approximately one year ago. And this ordinance dealt with creating a
program to prevent cross-connections in the community, or backflows
that would affect the community's water supply. Those requirements
were dictated by state law and the Florida Department of Environmental
Protection regulations.
There were a number of components in that original ordinance that
we briefed to you that were objectionable. Number 1, we had a single
family component in their retrofit program that -- there were
questions dealing with how those programs would be costed or how they
would be paid for. Number 2, we brought to you that program -- and we
had an above-ground valve.
Mike, if you will assist me.
This was part of our program that was very objectionable from the
standpoint of aesthetics in a single-family environment.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: By part of our program, you mean part of
everyone's front yard in Collier County?
MR. ILSCHNER: That is correct, Hr. Chairman.
For those reasons the board rejected that ordinance and asked
that we go back to the drawing board, redraft the ordinance, remove a
single-family component, conduct some meetings with the local plumbing
community to talk about issues related to implementation of the
ultimate ordinance would be brought back to the board and then bring
that revised ordinance back to the board.
In the interim I came to Collier County. And one of the things
that was brought to me as one of my first chores was to look at this
issue. And it seemed to me that we ought to address whether we could
address this aesthetic issue of above-ground in every single family
lot in Collier County. So the staff was asked to research that and
see if we could use a doublecheck valve in lieu of an aboveground RPZ
valve. The staff researched that and went to the Florida Department
of Environmental Protection, and we were advised that that would be
fine, that we could use that in a revised program. Also, we were
notified by the Florida Department of Environmental Protection that we
were now in violation of state law in that we did not have in place
the required backflow prevention control program.
So today we're here before you bringing this program back to you,
asking you to consider this program as it is now a requirement of
state law, and we also want to point out several facts that have
changed. Number 1, we're going to bring to you now this device as
part of the principal program. So --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Shown by the lovely Vanna Clemons there.
Sorry. I couldn't avoid that one.
MR. ILSCHNER: So, our new programming we're bringing to you
today will involve the use of this device which will be completely
underground so that we won't have this device aboveground.
Now, let me be frank with you. There will be some cases where,
because of a high hazard situation, for example, with a lake that's
supplying irrigation water where we have potential parasitic
contamination of the supply, where we will have to use this high
hazard device called an RPZ valve, and there will be those cases. We
are building into the ordinance an option, however, for those areas.
If they choose to install a central filtering system, then we could
eliminate this aboveground valve and go also with a doublecheck valve.
So I think, with respect to the aesthetic issue, hopefully this
is addressed now in this revised ordinance that we're bringing to you.
We in the original ordinance presented four options for
implementation of this program with respect to its cost. Staff
recommendation was at that time, in the original presentation, and is
today, option number 4, which is an option entailing 5.301 million
dollars to implement this program. The program would be implemented
over a five-year period, with the first year of that program designed
to address the high hazard areas. That program would go out to the
private sector and be performed by the private sector, and it would
total approximately 3.49 million dollars. And it would address the
very high hazard initial areas of the community. Then over the next
four years, and inclusive of the initial year, approximately 1.8
million dollars of work, retrofit work, would be performed by county
staff, and that would be done in conjunction with our meter change-out
program over that five-year period. This program, with its
retrofitting element, covers all existing properties that would be
required to have some type of device in place. We would determine
that by a survey that would go out in the water and sewer belts to
determine the existing locations. That's how we would make that
determination. But based on our current knowledge we feel the program
would total about 5.3 million dollars, and would be a joint program
between private sector and county.
The funding option, we feel like that, after looking at the
financial plan for the water and sewer district, which we have
finished developing, it's a five to ten-year plan, and looking at the
associated capital improvements plan that interfaces with that, that
this retrofitting program can be accomplished without a cost to anyone
with an existing facility and not impact our rate fares at all within
the system. The cost to future participants -- in other words, we
build a new house or build a new building, there certainly will be a
cost there but it will be very similar to the current program we have
for obtaining a water meter, you would simply have an additional user
fee. How much would this fee be? We estimate, based on the small
units of installation, about $150 total, and on the larger units going
up to roughly $250. Those would be paid for at the time of obtaining
the building permit, et cetera.
Mr. Chairman, I would be happy to answer any questions or have
our staff, if I'm not able to answer the question, answer the question
for you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Ilschner.
Commissioner Constantine?
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: One question for you and then a couple
questions for the county attorney.
Roughly 5.3 millions dollars cost to effect this?
MR. ILSCHNER: Yes, sir.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: But at no additional cost to the
existing utility customer?
MR. ILSCHNER: That is correct, sir.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: If for some reason we didn't have to
do this program, how much of a reduction would each rate payer likely
see from 5.3 million dollars, that apparently we have, over and above
standard service?
MR. ILSCHNER: Excellent question. What we're doing is we're
adjusting capital projects to a few years in the out years which we
feel won't impact this in order to use accrued funds at this time.
So they're not -- we're not using funds that we don't need to expend
to implement this program. We're simply trying to accommodate the
program without impacting the rate payer.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Thank you.
Mr. Weigel, we had this discussion about a year ago, and I
realize we're required -- I think we're all agreed we're required by
state law to create a program, but we're given some discretion within
the scope of a program what exactly that will be and how we're going
to implement it. My recollection is that when it was before this
board, we had concern about single family homes and particularly about
retrofitting. And I'm wondering, I need a definitive opinion from
you. My recollection was last year we were told that didn't have to
be part of it, we had to have a program but it didn't get into the
specifics. Has that, and I think maybe it has? I don't know. But
has that changed since we had the discussion a year ago?
MR. WEIGEL: Actually, I don't think it's changed. This kind of
question comes up about once every three or four years it seems like
with the board, and that is, where there's a statutory or regulatory
requirement and the county may be considering opting for something
less than that requirement, with the county attorney signing off for
legal sufficiency. And we have done so cautiously, with the caveat
that we are giving or attempting to give the regulator -- in this case
the state regulator -- significantly more than they would have had if
we did nothing, but we at that time thought that there was an
opportunity that they would accept what we gave was enough. And since
that time the rather specific communications that DEP has had with
staff are that no, in fact the single-family home element is something
that does have to be addressed within this and they are holding that
kind of negative incentive of non-approval of significant requirements
the county has concerning some of its capital structures in other
permitting needs that the county has.
So we really haven't changed, but what we were signing off on a
year ago, or would have, would have been, the best that the board
would have allowed at that time and we were going to see if DEP would
have accepted it.
COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: You know, I initially on this, I balked at two
things. I balked at the state forcing something down our throat
without ever talking to us, which is a regular occurrence but still
uncomfortable. And the second thing I balked at was the fact that we
would have to explain to our constituents why this ugly monster got
placed in their front yard, and somehow they don't like the
explanation of, "Call your state representative." That doesn't seem
to work very well because it's our crews that are installing these
things. So those two things combined caused me concern.
But on the mitigating side of that, I live in a neighborhood
where a lot of people have irrigation wells, and they are shallow
wells. And you can go out and shut your own water off at the meter,
and you can go out and make this connection -- once it was explained
to me, so easily, that it's scary. And what bothered me is, if
somebody in my neighborhood does that, makes that connection and we
have a down time in service, I can be giving my family and we could be
drinking basically their shallow well water. I've learned to say
cryptosporidian through this, which I'm really proud of. But we could
be drinking contaminated water. If we can eliminate that eventuality
reasonably and not impact the rate payer, whether the state's forcing
our hand or not, it's something we ought to consider.
I've kind of come full circle on this. I think it's something we need
to do because of -- as we start to see the irrigation problems we're
having and restrictions increase on irrigation, you're going to see
people doing all kinds of strange things to try and make up for, you
know, for the dis-incentive to irrigate lawns and so forth.
So I'm supportive of what staff has recommended here. I think
they've done a good job in twisting the state's arm a little bit to
get them to agree to something that is less offensive visually.
Instead of a five-year implementation, is there a problem with a
seven-year implementation or a -- again, looking for flexibility, due
to it being a five million dollar project, I don't want to put
ourselves behind the eight ball in getting this thing installed, if we
go that way.
MR. ILSCHNER: We have based the five-year plan based on what we
know at this point in time based on our knowledge of what is out in
the field. Certainly that program could be extended out, if
necessary, based on our results of our survey, if we determine that a
great deal more work needs to be performed, yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Further questions, comments?
Do we have speakers on this, Mr. Fernandez?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Close the public hearing.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I was concerned about
the same things you were, the unfunded mandate aspect of this thing,
essentially, the unsightliness of the things in the single-family
homes, and the cost, especially with retrofit. Our Mr. Ilschner can't
do anything about the unfunded mandate but he's done a very good job
on the other two items.
The other question I had in our first discussion was -- it's
really sort of moot -- but just out of curiosity, are we addressing a
problem that really doesn't exist and do we have any instances,
documented instances other than the handful that were cited before?
MR. ILSCHNER: Mr. Chairman, let me call on Hike Newman. He's
got more history information than I.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Uh-huh.
MR. NEWMAN: Good afternoon, commissioners. For the record,
Hike Newman, your Water Director.
We've documented several cases where actual cross-connections
have occurred. We had a couple within Pelican Bay that had their
tense water connected to their home and their potable water connected
to their irrigation system and were like that for three or four
months. And they were drinking, cooking and showering with that and
they continually complained of problems and eventually our staff was
called in and we identified that problem and it was subsequently
corrected.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: But, Mr. Newman, that's really not the
problem that we're addressing here. That's a similar error in
original connection, was it not?
MR. NEWMAN: That is true.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: So that's not really the problem that
we're --
MR. NEWMAN: No. That is the -- we're dealing with the potential
for connections to occur or actual connections that have occurred in
protecting the county's system from that contamination that may occur
from that, that connection from entering back into that system and
possibly being transmitted to other customers downstream.
If the, if your question is, is, have we documented medically
that there has been disease transmitted through the water system, that
is not the case because we do not have the facilities to do that and I
don't believe that the County Health Department currently investigates
those types of complaints.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, the point is that if our staff is all
in agreement that state law is going to require us to do this, this
little discussion is moot, but it's just, a point of curiosity, we do
seem to be addressing a problem that's really not out there
in practical terms. I mean, maybe there's a few, but it's not like
it's a widespread problem that needs to be immediately addressed.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: So once again --
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: In any case, we have to do it, so --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yes.
Any further questions?
Is there a motion?
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: I'll make a motion to approve staff's
recommendation number -- option number 4.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Is there --
COHMISSIONER BERRY: I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: A motion and a second. Discussion on the
motion?
Seeing none.
All those in favor signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
MR. CONSTANTINE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion carries, 4-1.
Thank you, gentlemen.
Item #12C4
BUDGET AMENDMENT RESOLUTION 97-3, APPROVING AMENDMENTS TO THE FISCAL
YEAR 1996-97 ADOPTED BUDGET - ADOPTED
We are to Item 12(C)(4), this is --
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, we've seen these before
and considered them before. I'll make a motion we go ahead and
approve the item, as soon as he closes the public hearing.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I will close the public hearing and --
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Now I will make a motion that we
approve these items.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: ANy discussion?
All those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Seeing none.
Is there a motion that should one commissioner get a drink from
Baskin Robbins they ask the other commissioners if they would like a
shake?
COHHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: All right. I'll share, whatever.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So moved.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: You've all got to get your own straw,
though.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I am extremely jealous.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: No one gets a fair shake here.
Item #12C5
BUDGET AMENDMENT RESOLUTION 97-4, APPROVING AMENDMENTS TO THE FISCAL
YEAR 1996/97 ADOPTED BUDGET - ADOPTED
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We are at Item 12(C)(5). Again -- wait a
second.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Close -- yeah. That's it. Close public
hearing.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. I close the public hearing.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: This is -- these are different budget
amendments.
MR. SHYKOWSKI: That's correct, second and third quarter.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Did you close the public hearing?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yes, I did.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Motion to approve.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: All those in favor signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Wild birds out in the hallway?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: That or a taxpayer being raked over the coals
in the hall.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Mr. Chairman?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yes, Mr. Fernandez?
MR. FERNANDEZ: I've asked Mr. Smykowski to make a very brief
announcement to the board regarding the actual specific figure on the
aggregate millage. It changes as a result of rounding and I think
it's important to read the revised figure into the --
MR. SMYKOWSKI: That's correct. As reported last week,
the aggregate millage was 4.4907. We round to the nearest hundred
dollars in all cases but the way the truth in millage calculation is
actually performed and the way the state would verify our -- the
accuracy of our aggregate millage calculation is actually multiplying
the taxable value for each district times the appropriate millage rate
with the unfounded figures. And due to rounding to the nearest
hundred dollars, the aggregate millage is one ten thousandth different
than reported last week. Instead of 4.4907 it rounds to 4.4908, and I
just wanted to clarify that for the record. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Good grief.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Headline, "Taxes Increase."
COMMISSIONER BERRY: I'm shocked.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: What's that, one cent on a hundred thousand
dollars?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Not even.
MR. SMYKOWSKI: But the official documentation provided to the
property appraiser with that calculation would reflect the 4.4908, and
I wanted to clarify that for purposes of the record today.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Boy, I'm glad you did because I've been
worrying about that all this time. I'm certainly glad you clarified
that for us.
MR. SMYKOWSKI: My conscience is clean now. So thank you.
Item #12C6 - Continued to August 5, 1997
Item #13A1 - Continued to September 9, 1997
Item #13A2
RESOLUTION 97-303, RE PETITION V-96-31, DANIEL TETLOW, JR., REQUESTING
A 7.25 FOOT DIMENSIONAL VARIANCE FROM THE SIDE YARD SETBACK REQUIREMENT
OF 7.5 FEET TO ALLOW AN EXISTING SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING UNIT TO REMAIN
AT .25 FEET FROM THE WESTERLY SIDE PROPERTY LINE IN AN RSF-4 ZONING
DISTRICT FOR PROPERTY LOCATED IN NAPLES MANOR SUBDIVISION, UNIT 1,
BLOCK 4, LOTS 8, SECTION 29, TOWNSHIP 505, RANGE 26E - ADOPTED
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: All right. We're to Item 12(C)(6). This is a
petition --
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Isn't it --
COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Continued.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Wait a second, this is continued. Never mind.
We're to Item 13(A)(2), petition V-96-31, a variance, Daniel
Tetlow, Jr., requesting a dimensional variance from a side yard
setback. This is a -- this is a quasi judicial matter so the
petitioner, any members of the public wishing to speak on this item,
and staff, please stand and raise your right hand.
Madam Court Reporter, would you swear the only person apparently
giving testimony in?
(The speaker was sworn.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Good afternoon.
MS. HURRAY: Good afternoon. Susan Murray, current planning
staff.
Mr. Chairman, you-all continued or tabled this at the February
25th, 1997, meeting. Would you like me or prefer me to give a very
abridged version or would you like me to go back through the --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, I'll tell you what. This is the one
that we didn't want to give a running variance to the property for
the, for the -- for successive structures. We wanted to run only with
structure.
MS. HURRAY: Exactly.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: It's an existing variance and we now are able
to do that. Is that correct?
MS. HURRAY: That is correct.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: One of our new conditional variances.
MS. HURRAY: That is correct.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Isn't that correct?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Does anyone need further explanation from
staff?
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'll close the public hearing.
COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Motion to approve the conditional
variance.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Second.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion and a pair of seconds.
All those in favor signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Ms. Murray, fine presentation.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you.
Item #13A3
RESOLUTION 97-304, RE PETITION CU-97-14, PAUL TATEO, TRUSTEE, AS
CONTRACT BUYER FOR WR REALTY PARTNERS, REQUESTING CONDITIONAL USE
OF THE C-4 ZONING DISTRICT FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A DRY MARINA, NEW
AND USED BOAT AND EQUIPMENT SALES AND RELATED SERVICE WORK FOR PROPERTY
LOCATED AT THE INTERSECTION OF BALD EAGLE DRIVE AND WINDWARD DRIVE,
FURTHER DESCRIBED AS LOT 11, BLOCK 776, MARCO BEACH, UNIT 4 REPLAT, IN
SECTION 8, TOWNSHIP 525, RANGE 26E, CONSISTING OF 0.94+/- ACRES -
ADOPTED
Item 13(A)(3), another conditional use. Again, I'm going to ask
all members of petition CU-97-14, Paul Tateo, Trustee, as
contract buyer for WR Realty Partners and staff to stand and raise
your right hand.
Madam Court Reporter?
(The speakers were sworn.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Good afternoon, Mr. Reischl.
MR. REISCHL: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, commissioners.
Fred Reischl, Planning Services.
This is a request for a conditional use on Marco Island within
the Marco Island town center, mixed use district. It's at the
northeast corner of the intersection of Bald Eagle Drive and Windward
Drive in an area that's zoned C-4. To the east are lots that are
zoned C-5. In the C-4 district -- this conditional use, by the way,
is for boat sales and a dry marina. In the C-5 district, those are
permitted uses. In the C-4 district they are conditional. That's why
I bring up the fact that it's adjacent to other C-5 zoned property.
The Planning Commission looked at a number of issues with this
project, and one that they added a condition to was the driveway on
Bald Eagle Drive, which is shown on your staff report as an entrance
and exit. The Planning Commission, through our Transportation
Services staff, recommended that this be a right turn or -- excuse me,
exit only, not right turn, but exit only. And that was the only
condition added by the Planning Commission. It's consistent with the
Marco Island zoning overlay district. It has applied for and been
granted a waiver of archeological and historic resources prior to
coming to you, and staff recommends approval. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Questions for staff?
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. Reischl, I understand that this
petitioner and the Marco Island Civic Association worked out a number
of stipulations?
MR. REISCHL: That's my understanding. I haven't spoken to
the Civic Association in a while, but, according to the petitioner,
that's what I understand.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, are those stipulations incorporated
into our material that we're going to be voting on today? That's my
question.
MR. REISCHL: No. I haven't seen any stipulations. I think it
may be differences to the deed restrictions rather than county zoning
ordinance.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Which, as we all know, we have no authority to
enforce deed restrictions, however, we like to see people get along,
so --
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, I think we'll hear from one of the
members of the Marco Island Civic Association. CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Agreed.
MR. REISCHL: Well, this will have to meet the county
architectural standards and it's within an activity center so it will
also have to meet the increased landscape buffers of an activity
center.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Further questions for Mr. Reischl?
Seeing none.
Is the petitioner here?
Sir, were you sworn in?
MR. WALKER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Come on up.
MR. WALKER: Good afternoon. My name is Jim Walker and I own
Walker's Marina and I am the petitioner. I brought today a rendering
that might enable you to have a better flavor for what the project may
look like and I'm really here to answer any questions that you may
have on it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Before posting that, if any board finds it --
member finds it necessary, Commissioner Norris has referenced some
type of an agreement with the Marco Island Civic Association regarding
just compatibility issues. Are you aware of an agreement that has
been reached?
MR. WALKER: Yes. I have signed an agreement with them. I
believe that they have it to furnish to you today.
They had some questions about the project. I am pleased to say
that we were able to work those out before we brought it into this
arena.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Are there any questions of Mr. Walker at this
time?
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: What we'd like to do is, in case there's any
questions on this -- and you can show it if you like. You probably
paid good money for it.
MR. WALKER: I did, so I would like to show it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: It's amazing what those fine architectural
standards have done to our community, isn't it? What a fine idea my
colleagues came up with.
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Support it.
MR. WALKER: Just so there's no confusion, Mr. Chairman, this
hasn't been reviewed by our architect, so I --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, we reserve the right to hammer anybody.
Thank you, Mr. Reischl. I'm just kidding.
Public speakers?
MR. FERNANDEZ: You have one, Mr. Art Segal.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Is that Austin Healey going to be parked there
all the time? Okay.
MR. PATTERSON: I'm William Patterson from the Marco Island
Civic Association. Again, Mr. Art Segal couldn't be here.
We have come to an agreement. We had a -- many conferences with
Mr. Walker and he agreed to these and he was very cooperative.
There are five -- six stipulations that we had, that any county
approval will include a stipulation that no outside boat display or
storage be permitted. The only signage on the entire project will be
a county-approved, ground-based sign. The north wall of the loading
dock shall be a full height privacy wall. That's really around the
other side. And the parking area toward the back of the building on
the north side shall be a solid, structural private wall that includes
screening -- screening the dumpster. Number 5, there shall be either
a scrubbed or structural privacy wall at the rear end wall of the
building, south of Windward Drive, to screen the parking lot.
That's on this side, and that was agreed to. The applicant agrees to
not park boats or store any material or boats on any adjacent
properties.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. SEGAL: We hope and wish him well on his new endeavor.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And I assume what's shown in the rendering, it
does not constitute outside storage because it's covered, is that
correct and agreed upon?
MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. This is right. Yeah. We agreed to this.
This is not outside storage.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Need you on the microphone, unfortunately. I
know it's impossible to point over there, but --
MR. PATTERSON: The signage is the only thing we had a problem
with.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And we're trying to make signage on Marco
Island, as you know, the new sign ordinance. And I don't know that
this would --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We've heard a few things about that.
MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. I guess you have.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
MR. PATTERSON: But Mr. Walker was very cooperative with us, and
we work very well together.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: It looks like a higher quality project --
MR. PATTERSON: Yes, it is.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- than most boat dealerships we deal with.
MR. PATTERSON: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: You've read those into the record. I need
confirmation from Mr. Walker that he agrees with those stipulations.
MR. WALKER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Let the record reflect Mr. Walker
indicated yes. Let's go ahead and have that on microphone.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Let him put it on the record. May as well,
while he's here.
MR. WALKER: Yes, I do.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Walker.
Mr. Fernandez, do we have any other speakers?
MR. FERNANDEZ: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Close the public hearing.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Motion to approve.
CHAIRMAN MAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion and second.
Any discussion on the motion?
Seeing none.
All those in favor signify by saying aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Wish they were all that easy. Thank you,
folks.
Item #13A4 - Continued to August 5, 1997
Item #13A5
RESOLUTION 97-305, RE PETITION NUC-97-2, BEAU KEENE, P.E., REPRESENTING
FIRST CHARTER SCHOOL OF COLLIER COUNTY, INC., REQUESTING A
NON-CONFORMING USE CHANGE FOR USE AS A SCHOOL AND ASSOCIATED USES FOR
PROPERTY LOCATED AT THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF THE INTERSECTION OF GOLDEN
GATE PARKWAY AND 68TH STREET SW, CONSISTING OF + 5 ACRES - ADOPTED
We are to Item 13(A)(5), petition --
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Chairman, on this item I just --
it seems to me that there can't possibly be anyone in the county who
would oppose not only the concept of the school but moving on from
that eyesore of a building to something else. I don't know how much
of a presentation we're going to need here.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think Mr. Constantine has asked that we
consider this favorably, if I read him correctly.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Second.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Let me do this.
Mr. Reischl, is there anything you feel you need to get on the
record that is not in the executive summary?
MR. REISCHL: Fred Reischl, Planning Services. Mr. Cautero has.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. If you do, then we have to go ahead and
swear you in.
Would all members of the public here to speak on this item and
staff members please stand and raise your right hand?
Okay. Madam Court Reporter?
(The speakers were sworn.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you. Mr. Cautero?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Before we start, can I ask the county
attorney a question?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Sure.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It just occurred to me, because Mr.
Norris asked me the question, is my son on the waiting list -- I have
a kid on the waiting list for this school. He's number 2. I sure
hope he gets in. Do I have a conflict; can I vote?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: It's only Number 27 You didn't get your check
in quick enough or --
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Number 2. Come on somebody, drop out.
MR. WEIGEL: Yes. I think you have a conflict. The better
choice would be not to vote.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Okay. Thanks.
MR. CAUTERO: Vince Cautero, for the record.
I'll be brief. I'm sorry --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Question. We already had one discussion
regarding this school that you did vote on; is that correct?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: No. I brought it up and asked for it to
be on --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Asked that we talk about it, but we
haven't voted yet.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Okay. I wanted to make sure we didn't
have to go back and undo something.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Re-do and un-do? No. Thanks.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Cautero, I apologize. Go ahead.
MR. CAUTERO: No problem. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I had a discussion a little over a week ago with Mr. Sims of the
school board. He's the new Support Services Director, and he had
indicated to me that there is some discussion going on between his
office and the Board of Education, I should say the Department of
Education in Tallahassee, and the standard inspection that is
conducted for school facilities may not be conducted in this
instance. I don't think it would be in the school board's best
interest, certainly the students and the staff at the school, nor the
county commissioners, that at least a courtesy building inspection
isn't done prior to the opening. So what I would like to get on the
record is the board's confirmation of my recommendation that, if that
is the case, that we conduct a courtesy inspection prior to the school
opening for the safety of the children and the staff involved.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I certainly would support that.
Any questions of Mr. Cautero?
MR. CAUTERO: The reason I bring it up is because the agreement,
the school board agreement that we signed or the interlocal does not
contemplate that we will -- that we will do anything with the building
once the site plan review is done. But in this particular case, since
that may be the issue, I'd like to recommend that to you.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I think that's a good catch on your part, Mr.
Cautero. I think the parents would expect some level of inspection to
be done and if negotiations with the DOE to not do a school level
inspection are successful, I think that's time well spent on our part,
so thank you for bringing that up.
Any questions of Mr. Reischl? You don't wish to question the
petitioner on this matter?
Do we have public speakers who want to talk us out of this?
Okay. Mr. Keene, the petitioner.
MR. KEENE: For the record, I'm Beau Keene. I'm the engineer
for the first Collier County charter school.
We would like to request a refund of the $425 application fee.
It's well needed in the early stages of the project. We'll put it
into landscaping and exterior improvements to the building.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: We have a procedure for that request
but that doesn't happen as part of the petition request, if I'm not
mistaken.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Mr. Weigel, that's not something we can act on
today, is my understanding?
MR. WEIGEL: Well, it's not a part of this agenda item, but is
the $400 fee he's talking about in regard to the nonconforming use or
some other fee?
MR. KEENE: Yes. Nonconforming use.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: It's not on this agenda.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yeah. I don't have a problem with the request
but it needs to come in under proper context with some backup so we
understand the basis for it. And so I would encourage you to file
that, file that request so it can come through proper channels.
MR. WEIGEL: And, Mr. Chairman, I'll just mention that when this
was brought up a week ago, part of the distinction that I attempted to
make that may not have been reported as accurately was the fact that
the county's -- part of the county's concern here was that we have an
underlying, privately owned piece of property that is looking to
achieve this particular non-conforming use change that is obviously
apart and separate from a lessee's use of the property.
And so I want to make sure that -- if we shouldn't address at some
point, whether here or at another time, the refund of the money, that
wewre talking about the underlying landowner as the party in interest
and not the lessee, which is the charter school.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Keene, and wewll see
that at another date, another time. I'll close the public hearing.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Motion to approve petition NUC-97-2.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Second it.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion and second.
Any discussion?
Seeing none.
All those in favor signify by say aye.
Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Motion carries unanimously.
Mr. Reischl, thank you.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Four zip because I abstained.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: 4-0. Thank you for that, for that correction.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Just in case.
Item #15
STAFF COMMUNICATIONS - COUNTY ATTORNEY RE MARCO ISLAND HOSPITAL
PROPERTY
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: We are at the end of our advertised public
hearing at the point -- before we get to BCC communications, let's go
ahead and go to Mr. Weigel.
You had an update report for us regarding the Marco Island NCH
Health Care, whatever we call it these days.
MR. WEIGEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and commissioners. And I'm
pleased to bring you the report of today's date.
After an extensive review, and I want to thank also the materials
and information provided by the attorney for the hospital interest and
also Marco Island citizens that provided our office materials to
review over time.
After a rather comprehensive review my opinion to the board in
regard to the sole question of, does the county have an ownership
interest or a reverter interest in this property, and the answer is
no, that Collier County has no title interest whatsoever in the
property that was conveyed by deeds in 1981 and 1983. CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Put that one to rest.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Thank you for making that short and sweet
because I know there were a lot of factors involved and your staff
did a lot of work on this, and I appreciate it, so the parties can
go on with that opinion, however they deem necessary and more power to
them, whomever they may be.
We're at Board of County Commissioners' Communications.
Mr. Fernandez, did you have anything else?
MR. FERNANDEZ: Nothing.
Item #14A
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE RE DAVIS TRIANGE CLEAN-UP
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Mac'Kie?
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Just a report that the triangle cleanup
had a hundred people show up and was such an efficient and energetic
group that we had most of the work done by like about 10:00 or 10:30.
And also, just to let you know, that a crew of about twenty came from
the City of Naples. We had two city council people and the city
manager there. We also had the drill team -- drill team. The drill
academy, the juveniles from the drill academy. Yeah.
But it was a very, a really energetic and exciting community
effort and I just wanted to report that to you, especially to publicly
thank the City of Naples for such a significant turnout.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Norris?
COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Nothing.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Berry?
Item #14B
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE RE AUGUST 8, 1997 MPO MEETING
Commissioner Constantine, you have one item?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Just one item.
I wanted to see who will be in attendance or does anyone know if
they will not be in attendance for the August 8 MPO meeting? I know
we've started into our break at that point.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I don't think I'll be here because our first
-- the 12th, the 12th we are not meeting. I believe I leave the 7th
or so. So all you burglars out there --
COMMISSIONER BERRY: It's questionable.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: I'll be here. As far as I know, I'll be
here.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: If we end up with not enough, I just
want to -- with the community transportation disadvantage thing
coming up, and we just will need to figure out an alternative plan.
I don't know what some of the alternatives are as far as getting Peter
and Fred over here on next Tuesday or doing something. But it's
fairly important we get that done before we go away on break because
the following Monday the state hears the item. I wanted to poll that
and if we're not going to be here, we just need to figure out an
alternative.
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Are you saying you won't be here?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I should, but 1, 2, 3 --
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Is that a yes or a no?
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: No, I should, but --
COMMISSIONER BERRY: I should be here.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I don't know, if it's a no --
COMMISSIONER BERRY: I'm pretty sure I'll be here.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- and if anybody from the city isn't,
then we could end up in trouble.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I'm a definite no.
COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I just want to make sure ahead of
time.
Item #14C
COHMISSIONER HANCOCK RE EMPLOYEE PARKING IN PUBLIC AREA
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I have two items, one a quick one and one a
medium, I'll call it.
Mr. Fernandez, an issue you may not be aware of. When Mr.
Dotrill was the county manager, about every six months or so a memo
would go out to county employees about parking in the lot closest to
the southeast side of the building, the southeast entrance where
there's a green canopy. A lot of times people show up for meetings
here with exhibits and so forth or the general public just comes to a
meeting. In that lot I believe the spaces say Public Parking on
them --
COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Public Only?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Yet -- yeah, Public Only. Yet I continue to
see county employees parking there on a daily basis. It was an
administrative, you know, policy of Mr. Dotrill to continue to remind
people that that is for the public. And before -- without making a
big issue of it, I would like to ask your office to continue that
emphasis.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Sure.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: I came in this morning and we didn't have
that big a crowd and that lot was jammed full. Now, I can't control
the sheriff's cars in there but that is public parking only and I'd
appreciate an emphasis on that when appropriate.
MR. FERNANDEZ: Mr. Chairman, I have mentioned this to the staff
since it was mentioned to me.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Oh, okay.
MR. FERNANDEZ: But I'll go ahead and follow that up with a memo.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Okay. That's fine. I just -- I know the
board was pretty supportive of Mr. Dotrill doing that because it gave
the public priority, particularly on meeting days when it gets kind of
busy.
Item #14D
COHMISSIONER HANCOCK RE LETTER TO CLERK BROCK RE INTELLINET AUDIT
The second issue is one that, I'll be honest, is not really
comfortable for me, but I feel the need to bring it up after last
week's discussion.
Commissioner Mac'Kie, you brought up last week a request for
reconsideration of the golf tournament audit. In doing so, there were
some implications made, and we all know that you can take ten things
but only the most inflammatory will get printed. And as I read the
coverage of what your request was, there was a very clear picture
being painted that -- and there were even some statements you made
that contribute to that -- that members of this board may not be as
concerned about the expenditure of those dollars as you are. And I
think if we go back, we can find at least some of those. I remember
one specifically. The greatest part that concerned me is any
perception the public gets that members of this board are not
concerned with the expenditure of public dollars, and that is what I
feel the need to correct. And whether -- I'm not holding you
responsible for what the paper writes, that's out of our purview.
But what I have done as an individual -- I'm not asking for board
approval on it -- is constructed a letter to Dwight Brock which, in my
opinion, is a summary of what this board asked for in response to your
request. And I would like to read it into the record, and I have
copies for everyone to take a look at. Addressed to Mr. Brock.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Can we have one?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Commissioner Pam -- no. I have made copies
for everybody and I will enter one for the record also. The reason
I'm doing this is I think the position is important enough to be
solidified in writing and this is my take on what that meeting was,
and if anyone else disagrees with it, then you can -- you certainly
have the right to do that.
Addressed to Mr. Brock. "Commissioner Pam Mac'Kie raised issues
regarding the TDC funding of the 1996 Greater Intellinet Challenge at
the Board of County Commissioners' meeting on July 22, 1997. Ms.
Mac'Kie asserted at that time that the Clerk's Office has several
difficulties in the manner within which the Board of Commissioners
handled that contract and its subsequent revision at the BCC meeting
on January 14, 1997. When requested to produce specifics regarding
the inappropriate expenditures, Ms. Mac'Kie offered one example but
stated there were approximately three inappropriate expenditures
associated with the tournament. It was also Ms. Mac'Kie's statement
that the Board effectively stopped your office from looking further
into what you deemed to be inappropriate expenditures by amending the
1997 Greater Naples Intellinet Challenge." And that should read
"Challenge contract." I apologize.
"Since you were not present at the meeting, I have only
Commissioner Hac'Kie's statements to consider. As a result, I have
reviewed the minutes of the January 14, 1997 meeting in which the
Board retroactively amended the Greater Naples Intellinet Challenge
contract in order to tailor the contract to the expenditures necessary
to complete the tournament. Those minutes indicate that out of a
$500,000 grant, all but $32,000 qualified under the four stated
categories in the contract as eligible expenditures. The only issue
raised at that Board of County Commissioners' meeting regarding
expenditures was whether or not the contract should be amended to
include the $32,0000 as an eligible expenditure. According to Mr.
Hitchell of your Finance Department," quote, "the only concern we had
is that it is outside of the four categories specified in the
contract. Included in our documentation, we can tell you everything
you wanted to know about the $32,000," end quote. I have a copy of
those minutes if you wish to review them.
"If there were other or are other areas of the contract that
raised concern at that time, the Board of County Commissioners simply
was not notified of them.
"In addition, the Board of County Commissioners approved wording
in the contract that gave the Clerk's Office the ability and authority
to request specific information to clarify any expenditures contained
in the contract. At the BCC meeting on July 22, 1997 the Board
reiterated its intent to specifically allow for information to be
requested and supplied by the grant recipient regarding any
questionable expenditures. In a nutshell, the BCC was not made aware
of any questionable expenditures beyond the $32,000 previously stated.
The Clerk of Courts' Office has had and will continue to have the
ability to pursue any expenditures deemed ineligible or questionable
and can do so without direction by the Board of County Commissioners.
The financial prudence displayed by you and the members of your
financial team in the past would lead me to believe that it would be
of the utmost importance to notify the Board when a
financial contract element has not been met.
"Since I have received no correspondence from you on this matter,
I must assume that you have not deemed this matter worthy of the
Board's attention. If not for Commissioner Hac'Kie's comments, I
would be completely unaware that your office feels areas of the '96
contract remain as questionable expenditures to be pursued. If this
is in fact the case, please respond to my office in writing, and I'll
be more than happy to provide that information to the balance of the
Board at our earliest opportunity.
"On a more personal note, as Chairman of the Board of County
Commissioners, I welcome your communication on any matters in which
you believe the Board of County Commissioners has not acted
appropriately or has not received full and complete financial
disclosure where required. If you have concerns that you deem
appropriate to warrant Board action, the proper avenue of
communication would be a request to the Chairman to be heard by the
balance of the Board of Commissioners with supporting information.
This avenue may help prevent occurrences such as last week where
partial information is provided, leaving far more questions than
answers. I greatly appreciate your cooperation on matters such as
this in the future, and should you have any questions regarding this
correspondence, please don't hesitate to contact my office."
The reason I feel this correspondence is necessary is we're
dealing with an issue of public trust here, one that none of us take
lightly and I cannot sit by and allow statements to be made that would
leave that question unanswered. I think this answers it specifically
for me. I assume from what I heard at that meeting, the balance of
the board feels the same way about the content of this correspondence.
I'm not asking for an endorsement, but as chairman I felt like I had a
responsibility to ask Mr. Brock, if things are wrong, bring it to us
in a format and forum that is appropriate.
Don't put it on your shoulders, don't put it on anyone else's
shoulders, and certainly don't do it with partial information. I
don't know that that happened.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: No.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: But the way in which it played out last week
was not conducive to good government, and I just don't want to see
that happen again.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And I, obviously, feel the need to
respond. First of all, to tell you that no one from the clerk's
office called me and said, "We need somebody to carry this message to
the county commission." Quite the opposite. You know that when we
changed the contract it was a 4 to 1 vote. I disagreed at that time,
I continued to disagree, and let me explain more carefully. The
$32,000 were the only three expenditures questioned at the time. As
I'm sure you're going to be hearing from the clerk, with or without
your letter, the reason that the flow of information stopped between
the PGA and the clerk's office is that we amended the contract to
eliminate those categories of expenditures that were either qualified
or unqualified. We amended the contract basically to say the event
occurred, the advertising that was promised was made, therefore we
aren't looking anymore into the question of what was qualified or
unqualified as an expenditure. We eliminated that categorization of
qualified and unqualified expenditures. That happened as a result of
the change in the contract and the change in the guidelines. So the
clerk no longer has authority to ask, does this expenditure qualify
under the contract or not qualify, because the contract was amended to
eliminate that concept.
Those three items that I questioned when, when we voted on this
initially are the three that I continue to question but, frankly, as I
did at the time, a question that I continue to have is not simply
about county expenditure of funds but is also about whether or not the
commitments made on which I relied in deciding how to vote, if those
commitments were fulfilled. Specifically, were the -- was the
$500,000 title sponsorship fee paid or not? When we invested in an
event, did we invest a half a million dollars as matching money or
were we in fact -- should Collier County have been the title sponsor?
When -- there were several items that changed over the course of time
with the golf tournament that I think warrant further inspection.
The clerk will come -- the clerk is asking his attorney to advise
him whether or not our amendment to the contract was legal, whether or
not it was legal after the fact to say that categories of qualified or
unqualified expenses are eliminated from the contract after the fact.
There may be a statute that says that's illegal. If it's illegal,
then the clerk will come to us and say, "I have the authority, in fact
the obligation to continue to investigate whether or not those were
qualified or unqualified expenditures." He will or won't do that,
based on that legal opinion. But the fact of the matter is, it is our
change to the contract that causes the clerk no longer to have a
question to ask because we amended the contract to eliminate that list
of qualified and unqualified expenditures.
I don't for a second think I'm the only person who cares about
what happened to that money. I do know that was I was the only person
at the time who voted 4 to 1 not to change the contract. And I was
hoping that you would reconsider that position and assist the clerk.
But I'm sure the clerk will do what the clerk needs to do.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: What I find unfortunate is that that entire
discussion occurred. I mean, everything you just said, none of it's
new. It's all right here in minutes from January 14th, 1997.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: What do you mean? What entire discussion,
none of it's new?
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: What you just said.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: None of it is new, N-E-W.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: None of it is new.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: None of it is new.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Correct.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: That's absolutely true.
COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Well, and that's where it goes back
to last week is you had said at the time, in light of new information
that's available and that's when I had asked, what is the new
information?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: The new information is that the primary --
who I felt was the leader in the decision to modify the contract was
our chairman at the time, Commissioner Norris, and now we know that he
was receiving compensation from Stadium Naples. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: That's not true.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I'm sorry. I thought there was $10,000.
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Not at that time. Not until Hay the 13th
of 1997. You need to get your dates right.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I don't -- I'm not -- I'm not saying
anything except that it needs to be looked into to get all the dates
right, to get all the information --
COHMISSIONER NORRIS: That's fine but don't make them up.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: -- so this public trust can be restored.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: What you're talking about is an ethics issue
and what my concern is is that you attempted to revive a lengthy
discussion, and the page numbers are Page 25 --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And I am continuing to try to revive that
discussion.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- 25 through 41. And the bottom line is,
this board has made decisions in the past that I don't like, I have
been on the losing side of. For me to bring them back just because I
didn't like them and think that we need to look at them again and to
make statements in that process that people will make inferences to,
we all know that. If I stand up here and say, "Well, if you guys
don't agree that it's a good idea to look at the expenditures," well,
what's the inference there?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I can't help what people infer from your
vote but --
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: But you --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: But, Tim, we all have to make difficult
decisions on this board and, frankly, bringing this up is extremely
difficult for me because I know it's going to make you all mad at me.
Nevertheless, I feel strongly enough about it to bring it up. So I
wouldn't do it -- I don't do it lightly.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: What I'm -- what I'm trying to get around here
is that there is a way to do those things and, in my opinion, the way
to do it is to provide us with background information that supports
the request you're making. By not really doing that, by not really
giving us any background information and re-hashing the same
discussion we had then, that serves no purpose but to appear to the
public as if we're up here arguing with each other for no reason.
It -- there was no specific course, and, as chairman, that concerned
me. It concerned me because if Commissioner Constantine puts
something on an agenda, I fully expect him to have back up and basis
for it. That really wasn't there and it became an element of innuendo
in what you were saying. Whether it be Commissioner Norris or me or
someone else is not that important for me, but I thought it
was inappropriate, the way in which it was handled.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And you're entitled to that opinion.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And as chairman I have the responsibility,
since you and I can't sit on the phone and talk about this --
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: Right.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: -- to address that with you. As much as it
was uncomfortable for you, I don't like doing this today. But the
bottom line is, I don't think that's a good way of doing business, to
bring things up because we didn't like the way they went the first
time. If there's new information, fine. But let's display it. And,
going back to, "Well, the clerk has told me this and the clerk has
indicated that," that's an issue I have with the clerk. If there are
problems with the way we're doing things and the clerk feels that way,
why, as chairman, am I not notified of that to bring it to the board's
attention?
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: You will be when he completes his legal
review.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And after he's discussed it with you,
apparently.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: But if I'm the one who called him, Tim,
you can call him. He didn't call me, I called him.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, again, that's an issue between me and
the clerk.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: And I called him and I would hope that he
would communicate with me and answer my questions when I call.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: Well, again, I've said my piece about
disagreeing with the manner in which it was done last week. And any
time that results in coverage that implies that I feel a way other
than I do, that someone else is speaking for me, I resent that. I
resent it when the paper does it. I resent it when any member of the
commission does it and I'm going to respond to it from now on
instead of sitting back and just watching it happen. And if that
means that we have to have these discussions at the end of every
meeting, then we'll have them. I don't care who it's with.
COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: So be it. That's sunshine.
COHMISSIONER BERRY: Mr. Chairman, I think one of the things that
has come out of this that, that concerns me is that what transpired
last week has painted some of us with the idea that, number one, we
don't care, and the fact that we're all trying to hide something. And
I personally resent that. And I -- at the time I do remember I
certainly questioned amending the contract or changing the contract
after the fact. But the problem still lies, and I guess it wasn't
understood last week, and I still contend that, if the clerk has had
this ongoing concern about these expenditures, as to why he has not
contacted either you as the chairman or the county administrator. And
if this was going on for a period of time, even when Mr. Dotrill was
here, it would seem to me that he should have been coming to him, if
this was an ongoing question. And that's what I don't understand,
Pam. I just don't understand that. I mean, I didn't know that much
about the whole thing, but I don't understand why it wasn't pursued,
because I'd look at that as part of his job on any expenditure that
this group makes, that he has a right to question it. And regardless
of what that contract says, I believe it's his duty and I don't think
that he has to wait for a commissioner to call him. He's a
constitutional officer. I believe he has an obligation to this
commission to certainly point out to us that he sees that there is
still on error here and that we really need to be aware of it. That's
my concern. And I think maybe that
was even misunderstood in what I said last week. And I really am
concerned about that, that there's something that's not right here,
which takes on the reflection that I'm not supporting the process that
this has taken from the clerk's standpoint. I certainly do not object
nor do I think probably from what I'm hearing here that the rest of
the commissioners object to finding out if there's been any problem in
expenditures. But the problem is the process, the fact
that the clerk has not come to us with a statement of saying, "Guys,
something is not quite right here. I need to have some more
information." If he needs that, come to us and say he needs it and
let us change what we've done here. I wasn't aware, Pam, until you
mentioned this last week, that there is an ongoing concern. And I
believe that he's derelict in his duty of not coming to us as a
commission.
COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: And he's completing his legal review.
COMMISSIONER BERRY: Pam, even if he didn't have the legal
review, why doesn't he come to us and say, "I am getting a legal
review and I am pursuing this because I think and I have some
questions." Keep us informed. It's called communication.
CHAIRMAN HANCOCK: And where was that concern on January 14th,
1997 when the clerk was represented in this chamber and gave
testimony, Mr. Mitchell did for the clerk's office, there was not one
mention regarding legality of changing the contract from anyone in the
clerk's office. So, I have to assume that a development occurred
afterward. And if it did, why wouldn't I be notified of it? I'm not
asking you to answer for the clerk. What I'm saying is, the process
and how this discussion came up last week was not handled the way it
should be handled for government to operate as it should, in my
opinion, and that's why I addressed the letter to the clerk and not to
you, because I feel the issue is with him and with me.
I apologize for taking the length of that, but again, I don't
have the opportunity to respond to those things with you personally so
it has to be done here. Anything else?
Seeing none, we are adjourned.
***** Commissioner
Constantine moved, seconded by Commissioner Mac'Kie and carried
unanimously, that the following items be approved and/or adopted under
the Consent Agenda:
Item #16A1
FINAL PLAT OF VILLAGE WALK PHASE SIX - WITH STIPULATIONS, LETTER OF
CREDIT AND CONSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT
Item #16A2
FINAL PLAT OF AVILA, UNIT ONE - WITH STIPULATIONS AND CONSTRUCTION AND
MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT
Item #16A3
FINAL PLAT OF AVILA, UNIT TWO - WITH STIPULATIONS AND CONSTRUCTION AND
MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT
Item #16A4
FINAL PLAT OF AVILA, UNIT THREE - WITH STIPULATIONS AND CONSTRUCTION
AND MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT
Item #16A5
FINAL PLAT OF AVILA, UNIT FIVE - WITH STIPULATIONS AND CONSTRUCTION AND
MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT
Item #16A6
FINAL PLAT OF AVILA, UNIT SIX - WITH STIPULATIONS AND CONSTRUCTION AND
MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT
Item #16A7
FINAL PLAT OF AVILA, UNIT FOUR - WITH STIPULATIONS AND CONSTRUCTION AND
MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT
Item #16B1
CHAIRMAN TO SIGN AN ENVIRONHENTAL RESOURCE PERMIT APPLICATION NECESSARY
TO CARRY OUT REPAIRS TO BRIDGE 030176 (VANDERBILT DRIVE OVER BIG HORSE
PASS)
Item #1682 - Moved to Item #882
Item #1683
STAFF DIRECTED TO ADVERTISE AN ORDINANCE CREATING THE RADIO ROAD
BEAUTIFICATION ADVISORY COHMITTEE
Item #1684
CHANGE ORDER WITH BETTER ROADS, INC. FOR THE RATTLESNAKE HAMMOCK ROAD
FOUR LANING PROJECT UNDER BID 95-2441 IN THE NET INCREASE AMOUNT OF
$54,930.57
Item #1685
APPROVAL OF PURCHASE AGREEMENT FOR THE SALE OF SURPLUS PROPERTY KNOWN
AS QUAIL CREEK, UNIT 2, OUTLOT "B", PLAT BOOK 13, PAGES 74-77
Item #1686
LUHEC, INC. AS SOLE SOURCE VENDOR OF LIGHTING FOR THE IHMOKALEE
DOWNTOWN STREETSCAPE BEAUTIFICATION PROJECT
Item #1687
CHANGE ORDER WITH APAC-FLORIDA, INC. IN THE MAXIMUM A_MOUNT OF
$505,339.00 FOR THE VANDERBILT BEACH ROAD FOUR-LANING PROJECT, UNDER
BID 95-2438; APPROVAL OF A CONSULTING ENGINEERING FEE OF $5,000 WITH
WILSON, MILLER, BARTON & PEEK, INC. UNDER A SUPPLEMENTAL AGREEMENT; AND
AUTHORIZE AN AGREEMENT AMENDMENT WITH WCI COHMUNITIES, LP FOR A
$109,959.41 REDUCTION IN ROAD IMPACT FEE CREDITS
Item #1688
CHANGE ORDER TO THE VACCARO CONSULTING, INC. AGREEMENT TO DEVELOP A
FUNCTIONAL SPECIFICATION FOR DOR UTILITY BILLING, SOLID WASTE, SPECIAL
ASSESSMENT AND CASH RECEIPTS BUSINESS FUNCTIONS IN THE A_MOUNT OF $3,300
Item #16C1
BUDGET A_MENDHENT PROVIDING THE FUNDS TO INSTALL A JOHNSON CLIMATE
CONTROL SYSTEM AS PART OF THE MARCO ISLAND BRANCH LIBRARY EXPANSION
PROJECT
Item #16C2
BID #97-2701 FOR THE USE OF PORTABLE TOILET RENTALS AT ALL COLLIER
COUNTY PARK FACILITIES - AWARDED TO J. W. CRAFT, INC.
Item #16C3
REPORT ON THE STATUS OF FLORIDA COHMUNITIES TRUST PRESERVATION 2000
GRANT FUNDING APPROVAL RELATIVE TO THE SUGDEN REGIONAL PARK AND
AUTHORIZATION THAT THE CHAIRMAN EXECUTE APPRAISAL AGREEMENTS SHOULD
ADDITIONAL APPRAISALS BE REQUIRED BY THE TRUST
Item #16C4
TWO QUITCLAIH DEEDS FOR THE DONATION OF THE PROPERTY SITUATED IN
SECTION 16, TOWNSHIP 52 SOUTH, RANGE 26 EAST, COLLIER COUNTY, FOR PARK
AND RECREATIONAL LANDS
Item #16C5
TIGERTAIL BEACH CONCESSION AGREEMENT WITH COOL CONCESSIONS, INC.
Item #16C6
BUDGET AMENDMENT TRANSFERRING FUNDS FROM PERSONAL SERVICES TO CAPITAL
IMPROVEMENTS IN FUND 111 IHMOKALEE/EVERGLADES HSTD
Item #16C7
CONTINUATION CONTRACTS BETWEEN COLLIER COUNTY AND THE AREA AGENCY ON
AGING FOR SOUTHWEST FLORIDA, INC. FOR SERVICES TO THE ELDERLY
Item #16D1
AUTHORIZATION OF FUNDING FOR THE PAYMENT OF THE ANNUAL SYSTEMS
MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT FOR THE HUMAN RESOURCES INFORMATION SYSTEM
SOFTWARE
Item #16El
BUDGET AMENDMENT 97-326
Item #16E2
INCREASE OF THE AIRPORT AUTHORITY'S FUEL BUDGETS AT ALL THREE AIRPORTS
SO THAT THE AUTHORITY CAN CONTINUE TO SUPPLY AV GAS AND FUEL TO THEIR
CUSTOMERS
Item #16G1
MISCELLANEOUS CORRESPONDENCE - FILED AND/OR REFERRED
The following miscellaneous correspondence as presented by the
Board of County Commissioners has been directed to the various
departments as indicated on the miscellaneous correspondence.
There being no further business for the good of the County· the
meeting was adjourned at 1:25 p.m.
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX
OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF
SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS CONTROL
ATTEST:
DWIGHT E. BROCK, CLERK
TIMOTHY L. HANCOCK, CHAIRMAN
These minutes approved by the Board on
presented or as corrected
· as
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE
BY: SHERRIE RADIN
ELIZABETH H. BROOKS, RPR