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BCC Minutes 01/10/1996 J (w/Lee BCC and Charlottee BCC) JOINT WORKSHOP MEETING OF JANUARY 10, 1996 OF LEE, COLLIER, AND CHARLOTTE COUNTIES LET IT BE REHEHBERED, that the Commissioners in and for the counties of Lee, Collier, and Charlotte met on this date at 1:37 p.m., at Terry Park, the Lee County Extension Services Meeting Room, 3406 Palm Beach Boulevard, Fort Myers, with the following members present: LEE COUNTY: Chairperson Douglas R. St. Cerny Vice Chairperson Andrew W. Coy Commissioner John E. Albion Commissioner John E. Manning Commissioner H. Ray Judah Donald D. Stilwell, County Administrator COLLIER COUNTY: Chairperson John C. Norris Vice Chairperson Timothy L. Hancock Commissioner Bettye J. Matthews Commissioner Timothy J. Constantine Commissioner Pamela S. Hac'Kie W. Neil Dotrill, County Manager David C. Weigel, County Attorney CHARLOTTE COUNTY: Chairperson Matthew D. DeBoer Vice Chairperson Adam S. Cummings Vincent Arnone, Assistant Administrator CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Call the meeting to order. This is a tri-county meeting with Lee County, Collier County, and Charlotte County commissioners coming together and talking about future joint endeavors. We'll go to the agenda. First item on the agenda is discussion on Treeline Avenue. I would like to start with our county administrator, Don Stilwell. Don. MR. STILWELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, board members -- a whole bunch of board members. Is that not on? Is my microphone on? UNKNOWN VOICES: You're on. MR. STILWELL: I've got my trousers caught in my chair, but other than that, I'll go ahead. I don't know what's happened here. I put this on -- I put this on just because I didn't know where y'all were. I know Collier County had talked about at one time making a contribution, and we're moving forward. Obviously we're excited about it. I think it's -- it's an excellent example of regional cooperation. You look at the agenda here today, and it's pretty exciting when you see areas trying to work together the way this area is. And so I put them on with the idea that from a planning standpoint we -- we kind of need to know what -- what's happening, what the evolution is, looking to y'all for direction. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Okay. Thank you. We haven't had an update in some time since I came before the board, and the only thing that we've seen is articles in the newspapers, and as much as we all rely on that information to be valid and to the point -- COHMISSIONER MANNING: Isn't it, Mr. Chairman? I always thought it was. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: I -- I'm not stepping into that one, John. COHMISSIONER MANNING: Okay. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: I -- I thought it would be nice to get an update. And, Tim, since you've been the -- the liaison, Commissioner Constantine, from Collier County, if you could give us an update on where your board is and we can enter into a discussion on this item, I'd appreciate it. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Thanks, Doug. We were -- As you know, on the 21st you came down, and we discussed the topic, and at that time the board voted five o to make a commitment to share in the infrastructure costs going into the new university. Since that time, a number of issues have been raised. A number of questions have been raised by members of our board. We've had a couple of kind of informal and -- and brief discussions at the conclusion of our regular agendas on Tuesday, and -- and I've -- between talking to all but -- Ray, of you in reference to it -- and not on purpose, Ray. I just didn't catch you. COHMISSIONER JUDAH: No problem. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: And also I just caught Don very briefly yesterday -- have answered some of the questions, but I wonder if we might not have a dialogue today because there is apparently some concern from some of the Collier commissioners on different issues, and I thought better to get a straight answer than -- all jokes aside, John, with -- with your comment on the newspaper, you know, to try to communicate through the paper doesn't do us any good, and so at least if we can answer and know where we're coming from, it will help us make a final commitment on that. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Okay. Well, I won't go through and reiterate everything that I said when I came before the board. I felt very positive when I walked out of your board meeting on the comments that each one of the individual commissioners had made in regards to staying together in this endeavor as we are in other endeavors that our counties uniting together for the benefit of all the citizens, especially in the proximity -- and -- and not to downplay Charlotte County's role in this but the financial impact of the future growth from the university, granted it's going to be in south county, and it's going to have as much affect on Collier County as it is Lee County. So that's why with my board's permission and support I came before your board and -- and made our request. We've come a long way in building relationships, and I think it's -- it's more about building relationships and endeavors to the future of all of us working together. If there were something since my presentation to your board that caused concern or change in attitude, and if there are technical questions, we have our people here today from the Department of Transportation. I don't believe that there are any representatives here from Florida Gulf Coast University, but I'd like to address those and get them out in the open if we could. And I'd also like to hear from my board because they have allowed me the opportunity to go forward with this idea, but I know that they have their very own opinions on where this county is going and moreover what this partnership means to -- to us in the future. So at this point I'd like to just open it up for discussions. And, Tim, if you'd like to go first, I'd be more than happy to entertain and hear what you have to say. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay, Doug. And -- And I want to stop short of Collier County sitting here today and providing a roll call of five individual either concerns or positions on this. We have not discussed this completely in a forum at our commission meetings, and in respect with the -- to the Charlotte County commissioners that are here, they -- they may find themselves outside of this discussion. So I think we should try and be as brief but succinct as possible. Since the 21st -- I think what you saw on the 21st was, in essence, both symbolic and important. It was based on the information brought forward at that time, understanding that the first real information we saw was at nine o'clock that morning. What you saw, I think, were five commissioners that believed that it is, in fact, Collier County's responsibility morally to partner with Florida Gulf Coast University. Our -- The children in our community will truly benefit from that university. The adults in our community seeking higher education will eventually benefit from the university, and I think our partnering in that effort is important, and I support that 100 percent as I did on the 21st. The questions that have arised, at least for me, are the appropriateness of the expenditure in relation to Treeline Drive. The fact that we're talking about the four-laning of a segment of roadway that starts and stops in Lee County, just as you are responsible for the use of tax dollars in Lee -- and I would welcome any citation of those dollars that have left Lee County and how they were used and how they may compare to this -- I think that there are ample opportunities on a regional basis for both Lee and Collier to approach our participation just with the regional basis and understanding what the needs of the university are in an overall approach as opposed to taking the first project that comes along that needs additional funding and making that square peg possibly fit a round hole. From my part, I would like to take two steps back, work closer with the university in determining what their needs are overall so that we can make an appropriate decision on what the -- any expenditure from Collier County should be. My concern is that -- I have several detailed concerns with Treeline Drive, and I really would rather not get into a specific debate about that today. I donwt think it would really serve a tremendous purpose because Iwve sought answers and found answers, and Iwm not comfortable with them. But what I donwt want to lose is the momentum and the partnering that we have discussed and we have committed to, and I have no desire of letting that fall between -- between the cracks. So I will just leave it at this point for -- from my position that the commitment you heard on the 21st I believe is a firm commitment of partnering. What I donwt believe is the information that we received since then -- my personal reservations on the appropriate expenditure regarding Treeline Drive, I donwt believe I can in good faith approve that particular expenditure, but I donwt want to lose the momentum. I donwt want to lose sight of what we have tried to accomplish over the last few years in -- in regional concepts, and I would like to proceed with it in -- in -- in a more general base. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: I just think for a point of edification, Tim, the reason this item even hit the agenda and as well you know is with the Sunshine Law being what it is, therews an awful light of items that -- from our meeting that I have not had the opportunity to share with my board. So I just thought that they should have equal opportunity to discuss this item with you in this forum, and I would hope that you'll go along with us a little bit on this because this is an important item on our agenda today. Commissioner Mac'Kie. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: My -- My -- I -- I find it difficult to -- excuse me -- difficult to discuss this in this forum today, but -- but I'm going to say what I think I have to say. That is, I think that when we had our vote when you were there, Commissioner St. Cerny, we did -- we made -- we made one decision with two parts. One part was right, and one was wrong. The partnership part was right. I'm not changing my commitment either to writing a check, not just the words, not just the good-feeling partnership, but spending money in partnership with Lee County toward the university. Frankly, I'm not particularly troubled by Treeline starting and stopping in Lee County. That isn't a factor that is critical to me or that, you know, closes off the discussion for me. The mistake, however, that I made when I voted was we don't -- and I'm sure you don't -- approve a $500,000 expenditure without a great deal of scrutiny, and unfortunately I passed my vote that day without an appropriate level of scrutiny. I, frankly, had relied on -- Commissioner Constantine had researched, had been the liaison. He said this is the right way to go, and I just said, I'm so excited and so enthusiastic about the partnership that I'm going to rely on that and go forward. But the facts are a lot of questions have arisen about private interests and about -- and I -- and -- and Commissioner Constantine has been kind enough to -- to do some research and give us some paper, but despite his efforts, I've just gotten this five minutes ago, and hopefully it will address some of those concerns, but what I think that we have to do in Collier County is establish some criteria for -- and -- and -- and, Mr. Dotrill, I'd love to work with you on this -- that -- that we don't -- even when requested by another Commissioner, even when an item comes up at the request of another Commissioner, there's a minimum level of scrutiny, a base level of information that is necessary before a commitment for an expenditure can be made because we don't spend a half a million dollars in Collier County with as little information as we committed to spend a half a million dollars in Lee County, and that's my only trouble. My -- So I guess I -- I share Commissioner Hancock's thought about that. I need just a little more time. I made a mistake once. I'm embarrassed about it. I'm sorry that I didn't research it and do more homework before I cast my vote, and I wish I had, but I can't continue the mistake. I need to stop, get the information that's necessary before I commit to a half a million dollar expenditure of Collier County funds, particularly an out-of-county expenditure. All of that being the uncomfortable part of what I need to say, the most important thing that I need to say -- and I've said once, but I'm going to say again -- is, I am committed to a financial partnership -- not a good feeling, not a let's all be nice -- a financial partnership with Lee County towards supporting the university. And it doesn't have to be Collier County scholarships. It doesn't have to be a Collier County room. It could be a road for me. For my vote it could be a road, but I need more information about this road. I made an uninformed decision, and I need to do more research. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Well, by this even being on the agenda, I'd like to clarify one thing. No one's trying to back anyone into corners and draw lines. This is more just for a discussion item as well for my board as for your board, and I don't want anyone being on the defensive that we're trying to get any firm commitments from anyone today or anything, but I do think we need to have a dialogue, and I think it's an issue that we need to talk about, and I feel badly that I have not given my board the opportunity to jump in and have a discussion because I know each one of the individuals have their own opinions. And so I thought by getting this on -- on the agenda today would give at least all of us an opportunity to air some -- some feelings or some thought processes and/or answer some questions. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Yeah. Frankly, I think it's the ideal forum. It's -- It's something that impacts both of us, and we're discussing doing it together, and it's not too often we have all of us in the same room, and if we have questions or concerns, this is the ideal opportunity to deal with those. Commissioner Mac'Kie mentioned that one of the questions that has arisen -- and -- and I've had a chance to talk to Doug about but should probably be brought out is, there is a question as to whether or not private development is going to be benefiting from having the additional two lanes on Treeline, and are we then in essence -- is Collier then, in essence, paying for some benefit to a developer in Lee County. You and I have had that discussion, but obviously you haven't had a chance to talk to the others, and this is a good opportunity to address that, I think. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Okay. George -- I'll let George address that from the Department of Transportation's position on it. And I think they're talking about the impact fees and proportionate share from private developers who will be on Treeline itself, George, and what -- what participation they're having in the process. MR. CRAWFORD: I think they have this podium for somebody much taller than I am, or I'm too short or something. For the record, George Crawford, director of transportation. Yes, the -- there is private money going into this. There are private -- The two agencies, Alice Corporation and -- well, we'll call it T and T which is a development on the south, have donated right-of-way to -- to this to allow for four lanes. They are -- For that part, they are getting impact fee credits from the county. The -- The part -- The two lanes they are not receiving impact fee credits for. The additional part to build four lanes which would have some benefit to them, they are -- they are giving that -- donating that right-of-way and getting -- getting impact fees from Lee County for it. Alice Corporation is doing the same. Alice Corporation -- and Mr. Klass is here. He could probably better describe what they're doing. But they have committed to pay for the engineering services which they are doing under our supervision. We have the engineering responsibility, but they're paying the engineer. And they have committed resources to the additional width of pavement. The two lanes is what we need as a minimum for the university. The university would like to have four lanes. We are building this road to eventually accommodate six lanes. That is, we're permitting it for six lanes even though we're only building four lanes at the present time within the limits of our money. We may not be building the full four lanes at this moment. The -- The county has committed over six -- I think about $6 million in -- in -- into this facility, and we have about -- a shortfall of about $3 million to do the entire project which also includes improvements on Alice Road and Corkscrew Road. But, yes, they are benefiting. Yes, they are giving right-of-way and receiving credits for that -- that. In essence, a practice in Lee County where any additional roadway that we don't need, if they take it, then they're allowed the -- the benefit of that. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Coy. COMMISSIONER COY: Yes. They might want you to stay there, George, because I think they might have some questions of you. Yeah. I -- I -- I didn't want -- I wanted to reiterate what the chairman said. I didn't want this to be a position or a time where you think we're pinning you into a corner and that we want a five e vote today before we leave or you don't get cookies on -- on the way outside the door but -- COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: That's why I already got my cookies now. COMMISSIONER COY: But I did think it was a good idea that -- Obviously since some of you are -- are kind of having second thoughts on -- on -- on the original November 21st -- You -- You've heard things. There's rumors. There's questions that I really think you should ask us and -- because it doesn't do any good to try and pass back information through the press or the media. For instance, if there's a concern about a developer getting wealthy and -- and us just getting money to get a developer wealthy, I think we need to put that on the table. So I -- I think it's a good time to air out these things. I didn't know anything about that, although I have no trouble with people getting wealthy because it usually creates jobs. So I don't think there's any problem with that. So let me go ahead and -- and let them ask their questions of George. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, may I -- CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Yes. MR. CRAWFORD: -- just clarify one thing? As usual, my staff is quick to correct me when I'm wrong, and I was wrong in this instance. The developers are not donating the right-of-way -- they are donating the right-of-way but no credits. On the south end, there was some question about right-of-way and credits of T and T. But on Treeline the developers are donating that additional right-of-way at an appraised value of whatever it was -- was appraised at and agreed upon to the -- this project with no reimbursement at all. So I have to stand corrected. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: So there are no credits for the extra two lanes? MR. CRAWFORD: No. No, ma'am, there are not. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Not for the right-of-way. MR. CRAWFORD: Not for the right-of-way. I -- I said there was, and I apologize. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Albion. COMMISSIONER ALBION: Yeah. George, just by way of clarification, I think what it -- what it comes down to because -- and I appreciate the explanation. I think the bottom line is, though, is that, is it fair to say the public sector is not supplementing any of the costs for the private sector in what we're doing? MR. CRAWFORD: I think that's a fair statement, yes, sir. COMMISSIONER ALBION: That's really, I think, the bottom line, is that we're not going to be supplementing for the private sector. We are not asking Collier County to do so. And just by way of a statement to follow up on it is that -- you know, if we're going to be good partners, we have to be able to communicate, whether it's through the -- the -- the three wise men here at the end of the table or whether it's going to be somehow between liaisons. We have a regional planning council and so on. I don't think anybody sitting here from any of the three counties want to put another county in a position where they feel like, you know, they're -- they're being put on the spot, backed into a corner or whatever. You need and we all need to go into partnerships with our eyes open. That's what's very important. What happens on our own individual boards, that-- that's an individual responsibility by every board member. What happens between the boards, however, that's a new stage. It's the next notch up. And -- And to be honest with you, I think in a lot of ways it's new ground for Southwest Florida, and that's what we have to make sure that we do right and do well. So instead of feeling threatened by it, I think what's -- what would be most appropriate is that -- you know, I -- I would strongly urge you to get your questions together and on the table and so on, you know. One of the things that I don't want to see repeated obviously is what happened with the airport. All right? Now, that has left a lingering taste for probably 15 years. And we're finally to the point -- and I'm not sure if Commissioner Coy was -- was on the board at the time, but I know he's been favorable towards it -- where we finally have shadow representation at least from the surrounding counties which is a step in the right direction, and we need to perhaps look at what more we need to do to make that fly. If we are going to truly create partnerships, we have to look at these big regional projects and say, okay, how is this going to benefit. I would say that -- For example, Commissioner Hancock, you made the statement about, well, because the roadway doesn't go into Collier County. You know, obviously the classes, you know, many that are taught at the university, if you were to give in to that foundation, you know, would -- I wouldn't want to see the same argument there. What I'm looking at and what I think this roadway makes a lot of sense so that this board knows is because you've been desperately telling us for the last few years how we need to get north/south connectors. This roadway will not only connect to the university but will also go right up to the airport. And when you talk about economic development, when you talk about education, when you talk about north/south corridors, when you talk about relievers for 1-75 -- and I'm sure that you're all aware of the fact that it's not a reasonable expectation to think 1-75 is going to be six-laned to Collier County anywhere in the near future, and I mean I don't think there's any dollars to do it from south of Alico between now and 2020. So that's generational now. We need to develop some of those north/south corridors. And just so that everybody knows, in the last two or three weeks -- I don't remember which it was-- we passed an item on our board to advance dollars for the project design and engineering study for U.S. 41 south to get that project going sooner. Yes, it helps our citizens in Bonita Springs. It should also help Collier County. We're going in the right direction. I would honestly hope -- and -- and it's not for me to -- to tell you what you -- what to do, but if there's some way to move up that 951 project, if Treeline could be properly developed, that's a solution to me for a north/south corridor that's going to make a lot of sense, and I would hope that maybe we could try to work together to make some of that happen. As a final note, as far as Treeline goes, I don't know if this is possible, but I would hope that maybe we could also request -- and this isn't to be greedy or anything, but those counties that are affected by this university, why it was chosen for Southwest Florida, those counties, if there might not be some contribution by the other counties besides -- because I would really love to be able to put a sign up somewhere along Treeline that talks about that partnership and show every student that goes in there how government can work together to-- for a common, good goal, and I think that that's the type of spirit that I'd like to see for that first-time student going to the university or parent or teacher. And if we're going to be leaders about partnerships and working together to solve problems, I think this is a terrific opportunity. It is the entrance road to the university for the southwestern part of the State of Florida. So I would offer that, and I would hope that some of the other counties would be interested possibly in trying to make that happen. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Judah and then Commissioner Hancock. COMHISSIONER JUDAH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, obviously we can't form partnerships if any one of the parties is in a defensive posture, and so it's pretty clear this board does not want to place the Collier County Commission in a defensive posture. And I think Commissioner Hancock was correct, is it's a multitude of options of making the commitment, the financial commitment to ensure that partnership and to work with the university. I just want to clarify, though, that when -- when our Lee County board committed to the six million, that was our taxpayer dollars. It was the tenth mill. I just want a clarification of that. MR. CRAWFORD: That is correct. COMHISSIONER JUDAH: There is a public commitment. But Commissioner Albion, I think, summed it up very well in that we're looking at a north/south connector here that's certainly going to provide the major transportation corridor for folks in -- in Collier County. I think the last time I heard, some 33 percent of the -- of the traffic to the airport comes from Collier County. It may be more than that. I -- I think it's right around, you know -- MR. CRAWFORD: About 35 percent. COMHISSIONER JUDAH: 35 percent. And I -- But I-- And I -- I respect and appreciate the position the Collier County Commission is in, and they need to assure that there's a rational nexus for the expenditure of those dollars with their own constituents, and I guess that's really what I'm hopeful of not getting into -- into an argumentative position but at least showing that there is that rational nexus for the people of Collier County for monies expended on a north/south connector in Lee that is connected to Collier, and maybe we might be able to get somewhat of a discussion on how that north/south connector is supposed to be aligned that ties in Treeline. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: And when. COMHISSIONER JUDAH: And when. MR. CRAWFORD: I don't believe the -- the "when" is answered yet at this moment. And it is probably going to have to be connected further to the east, as I remember, of -- of where Treeline connects to Corkscrew simply because of the already approved development right opposite that. But there is a plan to go south that would generally come out in the vicinity I guess east of Hunter's Ridge. MR. LOVELAND: It would link into Bonita Grande Drive possibly or -- or maybe extend a little farther to the east and tie in to where 951 would be coming to Collier County. COMMISSIONER JUDAH: So there's clear -- clearly a plan MR. CRAWFORD: There is a plan to tie overall, but the "when" is -- is -- is further up. There's no question about that. COMMISSIONER JUDAH: But certainly in the near term -- At least I'm pleased to hear there is that plan to interconnect north/south between Collier and Lee to Treeline, but in the interim clearly Collier traffic would utilize Treeline as far as accesses the airport that -- that Commissioner Albion spoke of and also the university via 1-75 and then to the -- the arterials. MR. CRAWFORD: As -- As my commission knows, the -- the FAA -- I believe the state has granted some dollars to extend Treeline to the north to accommodate the airport also. That's just -- has been a development that has -- has occurred in the last month or two. So we're proceeding with -- in cooperation with the airport, Paul Dougherty, to -- to get Treeline to the mid-field area, and -- and then we're going to look and see how we can get it all the way to Daniels Road as a reliever for 1-75. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Hancock. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: I'd, first of all, like to set the Lee County Commission at ease. I in no way feel pressure or intimidation on this matter in any way, shape, or form, nor will I. If I can't clearly state a position and state questions I have and reservations I have, then my position is probably wrong. So I -- I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this openly, and I think we're beginning to lose sight of what this discussion is really about. This discussion is not about a roadway. It's about a university, and a university's needs go well beyond what roads lead to it. This discussion did not start as what Florida Gulf Coast University needs are. It started as a concept of sharing cost of a roadway, Treeline Drive. In that regard -- you've heard George state it -- the needs of the university for the first several years indicate a two-lane roadway on Treeline Drive, not four, two. So access to the university is in no way compromised by having a two-lane road. The question for me then becomes, does it make more sense for Collier County to increase that to a four-lane capacity, or are there other ways that if we are going to partner with the university, that money can better be spent. My personal feeling so far in talking to members of the foundation is yes, and there are some ideas on the table I've discussed with them, and I -- I fear that it's probably premature to mention those today, but the key to me being that Treeline Drive being a two-lane facility does not compromise access to the university. In fact, if you look at the average daily trip volume capacity of a two-lane road, it's well within what is the anticipated traffic generated by the university in the first few years. So I keep coming back to, what is the goal, and the goal here is not just partnering, but partnering in a way that benefits the university. My desire is to have the discussions not just between Collier and Lee County but a three-way discussion involving the university and how that partnering can best benefit everyone, and that discussion has not taken place. The discussion that has taken place is regarding a segment of Treeline Drive. I believe that scope is too narrow. I believe that scope is not sufficient enough to merit a decision now or in the near future on Treeline Drive. If after that discussion Treeline Drive comes out as the best way to contribute, then so be it, but let it come out on its merits, and that's what I'm asking for. I'm asking my colleagues to begin that discussion on what the university needs because whether it is -- whether we all understand that Treeline Drive is a good idea or a bad idea, we also have a public that needs to understand it too, and I think if we don't have the broader discussion before making that decision, we have not performed our duties well. So that's -- that's my -- my first feeling. The second is -- I believe it's Commissioner Albion or maybe Commissioner Judah -- I'm sorry -- had mentioned the -- COHMISSIONER ALBION: They confuse us all the time. COHMISSIONER COY: They look a lot alike. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Well, at least you don't have the same first name. We -- We relive that nightmare every Tuesday. -- Had talked about the connectivity of the roads in Collier and Lee. Since this idea first came up, it made tremendous sense to me. We both have roadways that are supposed to connect at some point in our 20-year road program. None of them are funded in the five-year capital improvement element either in Lee or in Collier, but the anticipated buildout schedule is approximately the same. We're looking at about 15 years, George, if I read your plan correctly. The idea of either of us proceeding on that path without talking to the other is ludicrous. I fully believe that the Collier segment and the Lee segment which eventually would connect to Treeline should be done as a single project. The economy of bidding, the economy of construction costs, the economy of environmental permitting, of doing that segment as a truly regional road is tremendous, and I think if we don't pursue it on that -- that line, then we're making a big mistake. Because that's 15 years out, I don't think that discussion leads us into whether Treeline should be four-laned or two-laned today. But, again, I see it as a discussion that has opened an opportunity that we need to make a commitment to work together on, and I, for one, will pursue that commitment because I believe it will benefit both counties, Lee and Collier, and I think the time for that roadway for both counties will be similar. So, you know, just -- I guess trying to sum up, I can sit here and listen -- and list point by point questions and concerns I have regarding Treeline Drive. I also understand and see the benefits. But I don't believe because this is a first request for Collier participation in the university that it should take precedence over something that may have a greater need and greater benefit to the university itself, and I need to have that question answered, and it has to be answered through discussion with the university and Lee County, and that discussion needs to start today. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I -- CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Yes, George. MR. CRAWFORD: -- I need to correct myself again, as usual. I must be getting old or older. I said the county had committed $6 million. That's incorrect. The county committed $8 million, $2 million for mitigation -- $1.7 million for mitigation for the university to be built. Now, I'm only going to throw out suggestions, but one of the suggestions would be that maybe Collier County would like to participate in what we have contributed in mitigation because that is a university. The university would not have been permitted without the one point million seven dollars in addition to the six million that was put into this for the roadway, and -- and that would at least allow us some relief of some money that could be shifted toward Treeline. I'm not suggesting it as a solution. I'm only saying that -- that I incorrectly told you we also committed that $2 million, 300,000 of which was for the Treeline mitigation, a million seven in order for the university to be built. So I'm trying to find a common ground that you would feel comfortable with, Commissioner Hancock, because I think that is, indeed, something that has contributed to the university itself and to the ability to build the university. That was the commitment we made to the Corps of Engineers. I -- I had forgotten that. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: There were no funds allocated by the state legislature or the Board of Regents for mitigation, and had we not stepped to the plate for the million seven, I think everything would have stopped dead in its tracks at that point, and there would have been no permits. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: All of these ideas are part of the comprehensive approach I was talking about that we have not taken. And I think out of responsibility to the taxpayers in Collier County, if we don't take that comprehensive approach -- Just because Treeline Drive was the first opportunity does not make it the best opportunity or the best avenue, and without having that discussion, I am not going to support the expenditure, you know, based on what we have at this point. And that -- that's -- I'm trying to give you my feel so you have -- at least know the ground I stand on. And, believe me, I -- I believe we're going to disagree on things down the road too, so I don't have a problem with that. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Two things. One, I wanted to inquire of you. We had had discussion with this a couple of months ago that there was a permitting question here, and that was part of the reason for two-lane versus four-lane. You were hoping to have permits for a larger project now, and if you didn't utilize it all, you would have to repermit later or something of this -- CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Yes. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- and the additional expense. I -- I don't know if that helps in your question as to why they're looking at four-lane now. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Well, George can -- MR. CRAWFORD: Future -- I'm sorry. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: -- give you the answer to that very briefly. MR. CRAWFORD: The future also says that we need more than two lanes, and I find that dealing with permitting agencies -- you're better off to strike while the iron is hot so to speak and get your commitments made because 20 years from now or 15 years from now, their -- their requirements seem to change, and that's why we decided that we should permit it for the future use even though -- Commissioner Hancock is absolutely correct. The initial go-around at the university does not need any more than two lanes. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: And I realize that wasn't your only point, Commissioner Hancock, but I just -- I know we had had that conversation, but I didn't think it had been raised in a public forum. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I -- I appreciate that. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: And my second one is -- Commissioner Hac'Kie, you had mentioned before, you're looking for some specific information or more information, and I didn't know if there were specific questions. It just seems like if we have George here and Don here and these five guys here, this might be the opportunity to at least send them away and be able to get that information back. Whenever our board does have that discussion, at least we'll have it straight from the horse's mouth. So I don't -- I don't know what they may be. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: I'm -- I'm getting a lot of the answers to a lot of my questions, and I think as -- as you said, Commissioner Albion -- I hate microphones -- that, you know, we are treading new ground here to try to start this partnership between our two counties and hopefully eventually among our three counties. Yes, we like your checkbook too, so don't be feeling too comfortable over there. We -- And I think that part of the problem here is that as we have these -- I think it's a procedural problem. I think that -- that if we had a requirement of our staff that -- that -- as I referred to a little before, is that before we spend money, we have some basic facts that are presented to us because a lot of you had communicated apparently to Commissioner Constantine. He didn't know a lot more about this than the rest of us have, and -- and so I think a lot of our problem is -- is just as we forge new ground, we also are going to have to lay those communication processes in place as well. So I think this is a real step in the right direction, and it's -- it's -- it's not easy but great to be the ones who are going to figure this out so -- CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Good. COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: -- we will. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Judah. COHMISSIONER JUDAH: Just real quickly, with what Commissioner Hancock talked about with the economy of scale -- and I think it's an awfully good point that we really should coordinate our permitting activities and -- and construction activities with regards to the north/south connector that eventually ties into Treeline -- obviously that same economy of scale holds true with why we're looking at potentially the four-lane versus two-laning of Treeline, and clearly that in addition to the permitting concerns lend great weight to hopefully being able to effectuate a resolution here that we could direct dollars, given there is a rational nexus for Collier County to help with contribution towards the needed capacity on Treeline, and I just hope we can show you that rational nexus exists. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Albion. COHMISSIONER ALBION: Just by way of maybe moving towards wrapping it up because we're not -- certain issues -- we're not simply going to get them all resolved today. You know, we did it in Lee County. I don't know if you've done so in Collier, and I would recommend all affected counties by this university I think -- I'd like to see a liaison be appointed from each board and a member from the university be appointed, and they should be sitting down regularly and determining what the needs of that university are going to be, how impacts are going to be handled, and let's try to keep a conversation going. I think because this is within the boundaries of Lee County, sometimes there's a tendency to say, well, you know, the university's looking to Lee County saying what -- what of these impacts are you going to just simply handle. I am saying that there are other opportunities as Commissioner Judah, Commissioner Hancock have been referring to about the permitting and getting roadways done and so as not to have duplication of effort and in bidding and so on. There's going to be a lot that's going to come together but -- you know, as Commissioner Hac'Kie just talked about, you know, it's a good problem to have. We're finally getting a university. The best way we can do that right is to open up the floodgates of conversation and communication in ways that are still legal. So I would request that each board of an affected county by this university should have a member. They should meet regularly, and let's try to show the university the greatest amount of support possible and show those Board of Regents of why they made such a terrific choice in picking a spot in Southwest Florida for a university for all of Southwest Florida. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Chairman Norris. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Thank you, Doug. I -- Just quickly, I agree; we need to wrap up probably. I agree with the -- the discussion about extending Treeline and connecting with 951 at some point in time. If we could advance that time-wise, I think we -- we've got ourselves a real regional issue. As you know, Doug, I was the one that expressed reservations from the outset on -- on the -- the small segment of Treeline Drive. I -- I have still not been convinced that -- that our contribution, even if it means going from a two-lane to a four-lane really gives the university any incremental benefit because a two-lane road would be adequate for years. So I don't see that our contribution helps the university itself. It would help your -- your road program, and -- and that's certainly a valid discussion. But if we're going to say we're doing this for the university, I don't see that it does anything for the university whatsoever. The university will be unaltered whether we put in the 500,000 or whether we don't. Now, we've talked a lot also about partnerships, and partnerships with Lee County is something we -- we are moving towards, we've done in the past, and we -- we intend to do in the future, but a partnership has not only commitment, but it also has benefit. Bonita Beach Road -- Just yesterday we -- we went ahead and authorized our financial commitment to working with Lee County to -- to fund Bonita Beach Road which is on the county line which clearly benefits both counties. We're talking about a regional jail. There's a clear benefit for everyone involved to get involved in that discussion. What else? The film commission is even a suggestion that could be -- certainly both parties get some benefit. Now, I have asked the question to many people, posed this question to many people many times. What benefit would Collier County accrue from this contribution? And I have not been able to get any definitive answer, anything concrete other than we have the ability to say that we are a partner with Lee County in advancing the university, and that's just not a direct enough benefit for my taste. So with those comments, I'll -- I'll end. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: I have one brief comment from the representative from Alico, and then we'll move on to the second item on the agenda. MR. KLASS: Good afternoon. My name is Dick Klass. I represent Alico. I'm just going to make a few remarks because I'm more or less the outsider here. This is a nice love-fest, but I think some things maybe need to be put on the table. I'd like to remind the Collier County Commission that these folks, Lee County, have put up $8 million, eight million, not 500,000, not a drop in the bucket. Eight million. They have donated two different parcels of property to the university. They -- They -- They saved this university by putting up this two million which that meeting went in this room with Colonel Rice till past midnight. Commissioner Matthews was here in the afternoon -- COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: I was here. MR. KLASS: -- and Doug and -- and everybody was here till past midnight, and we started the next morning at -- at 7:00. He hasn't mentioned the countless thousands of hours of staff time that Lee County has -- has expended or the personal interest of -- of these Lee County commissioners. John Albion has been working tirelessly on the window overlay and -- and Ray Judah -- the one with the mustache -- Ray Judah has been watching the environment and -- and water management and species. Doug went to Collier County, and -- and he got a pledge, and -- and now it's sort of unraveling a little bit. I know that it's an honest debate. There's no duplicity amongst the Collier County commissioners on this subject. I assure you that -- Lee County commissioners. But there's a chance to get a real bang for the buck here. If Collier County puts up this 500,000, the university can turn to the Board of Regents through some funding mechanism, and they can get the other two and a half million. So the university gets a $3 million road, four lanes. The other two lanes are three million. that's a great deal. Doug came back, and he was real happy with what went on in Collier County on the 21st, and I've been here probably as long as almost anybody in the room, and I can tell you that for many years there has been an East and West Berlin mentality between these two county commissions, and -- and it's -- you know, it's been a -- it's been a sad thing, but at least that's healing up. And to have this -- to have this pledge, unanimous five o vote pledge sort of turn to dust is a sad thing. I know there's one organization -- and -- and I realize it's coming up on election time -- the Marco Island Taxpayers Association -- they raised -- Fay Biles raised an issue about some shopping center at the corner of Corkscrew Road benefiting. Well, I'll tell you what. 1-75 and -- and rooftops are what a shopping center developer would look at. He wouldn't look at a road that's proposed and whether it's two-lane or four-lane. He wouldn't matter. And if there is some benefit to that shopping center, whoever it is -- I know it's some Canadian people -- then so be it. Nine fifty-one is being four-laned down to Marco Island. Are we naive enough to think that the Marco Island shops, shopping centers, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker aren't going to benefit? I mean, come on. Alico not only donated the right-of-way but -- George forgot to mention -- is donating 2.4 million toward the construction of this road. Alico's overall gift according to Chancellor Charlie Reed is $70 million. That's a pretty decent commitment. So if Alico gets a little something by way of a benefit out of this, they deserve it. There's just -- There's just no question about it. I think there's something that's gone unsaid here only because Commissioner St. Cerny is just such a gentleman, and I've come to know him well because he is the liaison officer from Lee County. I think it's fair to say there's a feeling of betrayal here. I really do. And there's big, important issues to work on, and I think that you need to consider this not just as a road, if you will, but as a bridge. This is -- This is a bridge between -- between these two counties and -- and I -- I don't -- I don't think it should be -- I don't think it should be destroyed. The university, 500,000, if -- if Collier County donates this, the university is going to be able to get more money from the state to build that road, the other two lanes. If they don't, they're going to have to pay their share down the road anyhow. So it's a big bang for the buck. And the last comment I have is that Collier Planning -- Collier County Planning Commission and the Lee County Planning Agency, they had a joint meeting -- it's been about a year ago now -- and that was the biggest subject of discussion, was finding an alternate route east of 1-75, and that is important, and -- and this is an important link in it. So I -- I just hope you'll really give this the consideration that it deserves. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Thank you. I think we've exhausted this subject, so thank you for everyone's participation. And, again, in the future, anything you need from us or our staff to raise your comfort level in specifics, dollar amounts, contract agreements, whatever they are, don't hesitate to let us know. You know, we stand able and willing to work with you on this. Anything that we have available to you is yours. Just let us know. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Next item on the agenda is an update on the jail study. Don Stilwell, county administrator. MR. STILWELL: Mr. Chairman, I'm -- I'm delighted to say we've got a tri-county issue here, so we can get all -- all three boards involved in this one. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Actually, Don, wasn't -- weren't Hendry and Glades actually considering at one point? MR. STILWELL: Yes, sir, they are -- CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: So there are five counties. MR. STILWELL: -- and I think that's what we're going to hear. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Okay. MR. STILWELL: Roger Desjarlais, the assistant county administrator, is here to comment on it. MR. DESJARLAIS: Good afternoon, Commissioners. In fact, we are involved in a five-county project at this point. There's still some question as to whether or not Sarasota is going to join us in some way, shape, or form, but that doesn't affect what we have going. You'll see that I've placed at each of your positions a -- just a little project update sheet. There are seven points there. Probably the important ones to just highlight today is, number one, of course, that all five counties have now committed to the project; number two, that we would expect very shortly authorization from Charlotte County to give formal authorization to the consultants to proceed. As you'll recall, several months ago you all approved piggybacking onto the Charlotte County contract for their jail study. They had already gone through the RP process, and that helped to move things along quickly; and that in February Lee County -- point number six there, Lee County will be going through its symposium on criminal justice. And by mid February the consultant should have compiled an awful lot of data and will be reporting back to each one of the boards so that we can begin to compare apples to apples on the jail statistics and projected future populations. It's -- It's on schedule as the consultants told us. We would begin the process in -- in January, and so that's -- not much more complicated than that. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Questions by commissioners and/or comments for Roger on where we are? Seeing none, we'll move on to the next agenda item. Thank you very much, Roger. Joint lobbying efforts in Tallahassee. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: I guess that's mine. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: This is your scheduled item, Bettye? COMMISSIONER MANNING: Yeah, Mr. Chairman. I was going to ask you to ask Commissioner Matthews to keep it down over there. It's pretty loud. So go ahead, Bettye. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Well, it's my turn. I -- I've passed out to each of you earlier a schedule of the House calendar, revision number three. I've only got one more, so if y'all can share, I'd appreciate it. MR. STILWELL: Sure. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: This is just to give us an idea of what the House's schedule is going to be in the upcoming legislative session, and one of the purposes for the workshop being formed today was to come together and decide exactly when we wanted to go to Tallahassee and which -- which weeks, which county was going to cover which week. I'm just as content to do it the way we did it last year, and I'll -- I'll generate the calendar with the county names, and you guys put the individuals on the weeks. COMMISSIONER COY: Yeah. That -- That worked out real nice, I think. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Yeah. That way you can switch amongst yourselves. You -- You've got a responsibility for a week and -- and do what you can to cover it, and if you can't, let another county know so we can try. What the issues are that we want to try to cover -- I'm sure partially your ad valorem is probably one of them. I'm hearing some good things about what's going on that we -- we may -- might possibly be successful if we twist enough arms this year to get that through, and I know Ray Judah's been instrumental in getting some of that done, so maybe he can give us an update on where it -- where that is. Other than that, we've got other issues to cover. Article five costs, that's been an ongoing problem for ten -- ten years or more. There is an FAC group that looks into that. I -- I do get updates periodically on article five costs, and I know the Collier County costs continue to escalate. As of last year, they were seven, eight million -- MR. DORRILL: Probably. COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: -- article five costs that the state should be covering and they're not. So that -- that may well be another issue that we really want to try to dig into. I mean, we're -- we're all going to be scratching for money in -- in the next couple of years to run our governments, and if the state has a responsibility, we ought to ask them to -- to take it up. If anybody's got any other ideas of -- of pet bills and so forth that we want to work on, I'll be glad to take notes and -- and put it together and try to get it moving. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Norris. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At yesterday's meeting, I asked all our board to come back next week with a list of the particular legislative items that were important and will compile those, and our -- and our legislative delegation is on the 19th. We'll be meeting with them. If -- If each of the other counties could do that and -- maybe we could put all of these lists of items together and compile them and maybe give us a direction to concentrate on when we're up there. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: That would be good. We have a meeting coming up -- what -- the 31st, I think I stated today, to meet with our legislative delegation in Lehigh, and our board's putting together their lists now also. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: If you wouldn't mind, when you get your list of items you're going to discuss with them together, if you would forward that to Commissioner Matthews -- CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: We will. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: -- maybe she would volunteer to sort of be the clearinghouse for this. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: That's a great idea. COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: I'll be happy to -- to compile the list. I've -- I've also asked Representative Butt Saunders and -- and -- and Representative Livingston when -- when I get ahold of him again to give me their ideas as well of issues that they're aware of in committee meetings that have been going on since September of issues that they think need to be addressed and that perhaps we as county commissioners might be able to disseminate some -- some of the information that needs to be done as well as some issues that we may want to try to put a halt to that are going to harm us but hurt -- but help someone else. He's -- He's agreed to do that, and I'm hoping that sometime this week to be ahold of Mr. Livingston to -- to get -- get a similar list from him. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Further questions and/or comments from any other commissioners on this item? COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Just one comment. I'm a little -- COMMISSIONER COY: Speak up just a little bit, Tim. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'm a little shy. I want to make sure we're a little clearer this year on communication from week to week, and -- and computer use and so on -- COMHISSIONER MATTHEWS: Well, I think at the last meeting we decided not to rent the -- the computer. If we decide to go ahead and do that, certainly we can, but I've asked Sue to only rent a telephone answering machine with a built-in fax at this point. The handwritten notes and so forth from one week to the next -- I noticed that most people handwrote notes last year. And -- And if -- if -- if that's the way we should go, I don't see any -- I don't see any reason to spend $400 a month for a computer that people are handwriting. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Agreed. MAybe between now and then we can come up with a specific format so that when you get there you know what you're looking at. COMHISSIONER MATTHEWS: I'll be glad to design a form for -- for information purposes and so forth. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: If I could suggest that we coordinate with our administrative staff on that because if we have the same software, create the form in software, and then when you get back, just generate it, fax it up to the office, and it gets put on file up there in -- in Tallahassee so -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I've got some notebook paper. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Do you? COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Is it '96 -- Windows '96 notebook paper? COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Yeah. COMHISSIONER MATTHEWS: Well, that's true. My -- My notebook will go with me, but I need to get a little -- little portable printer. Have you seen those things lately? They're -- They're really neat. They're about that long and about that wide and stand about that high. (indicating) COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: How is that going to show up in the minutes? COMHISSIONER MATTHEWS: I guess -- COMMISSIONER JUDAH: Just as an update, I was informed by Paul Piller, our legislative lobbyist on Monday that the partial-year assessment bill is in bill drafting right now because they're going to go ahead and -- and pull the tangible personal property from the bill. That should appease the utilities. It's number one priority, of course, with the Florida Association of Counties. John MAnning certainly is well aware of that and also with the Florida League of Cities. I'm very encouraged with the passage of this bill this coming session. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Commissioner Judah, there was discussion last year about the possibility of building into the bill an option for a small county to -- to opt out of it. COMMISSIONER JUDAH: That can't be done statewide. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Can't be done statewide? COMHISSIONER JUDAH: No. COMHISSIONER MATTHEWS: Okay. COMMISSIONER JUDAH: We're going to have to put those property appraisers in the rural counties to work. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: They're going to have to get off their notebook paper and actually buy a computer then. COMMISSIONER JUDAH: Yes. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: That was the implementation problem, I think, was their -- their up-front cost argument. COMMISSIONER JUDAH: There is -- COMMISSIONER MANNING: Well, no, not really, because the county foundation said that we would supply the necessary capital and the technology to fund them. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: That argument's gone. COMMISSIONER MANNING: So they have no argument. COMMISSIONER JUDAH: There, however, is an out in that evidently if -- if you're -- can prove that -- that what you're collecting is less than what it costs to collect, you would be exempt. So there is -- there is an opportunity there for the smaller counties. COMHISSIONER ALBION: And how much is it going to cost to determine that? CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Questions and/or comments? Yes, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER CUMMINGS: Just as an observation from having done this last year, I know we all try very hard to not miss Tuesday board meetings, but I found that trying to schedule around that Tuesday board meeting I didn't get very effective use of time. And my feeling about it was -- was if I was going to spend the money and make the effort to go up there and try to raise the visibility of my community, it was worth a Tuesday board meeting. And I went Monday through Friday and just felt that I got far better bang for my buck and -- I mean, when it comes down to scheduling, I don't know about how the rest of you feel, but I would rather just have a straight week than trying to do it -- because what happens, very few people are going to stay over the weekend until Monday and then try to do some lobbying, get home Monday, get ready for the Tuesday board meeting and so on from there. You end up being there Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday and -- You know, Wednesday you're getting ready. Thursday you're -- or Friday you're getting ready to leave, and Thursday you have a real positive work day, and I just found that I got -- I got a lot more accomplished when I was up there for the full week from Monday through Friday. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Further comments? COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: That doesn't sound like a bad idea. I know -- was it, Matt, you last year who said that -- that you were using Fridays? Fridays is typically a day off -- off for the legislature. COMHISSIONER CUMMINGS: I usually met with staff. COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Yeah. Weren't you using Fridays to meet with -- with staff -- COMMISSIONER CUMMINGS: (Nodded head.) COMMISSIONER MATTHEWS: -- and -- and further your -- your knowledge of who's doing what and how it gets done? COMMISSIONER CUMMINGS: (Nodded head.) COMHISSIONER MATTHEWS: So, you know, that's -- that's another thing to do at that -- that same time. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Yes, Matt. CHAIRPERSON DEBOER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of -- One of -- Well, first I should tell you that Commissioners Youssef and Dudley did say that I should tell you they apologize for not being here. They both have the infamous flu that our northern friends have brought down for us. COHMISSIONER MANNING: And Max just doesn't like us, Matt? COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: We make him sick. CHAIRPERSON DEBOER: One of the things that we did to -- to allay some of the concerns that Commissioner Cummings brought up simply is this. Out of courtesy for the member who's doing the lobbying, if that member gives us a note of any of the items on our agenda on Tuesdays that are not critical time-wise that they would want to object to or discuss, one of us pulls those off and requests to delay them for a week, and that got rid of the concern that we would miss anything on our board member days. A couple of questions. Is the apartment already rented? COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Yes. CHAIRPERSON DEBOER: Okay. And so it's ours to use? COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Right now it's beginning in March, and I -- I know in our meeting last August we had discussed covering the committee meetings as well which become more intense in the month of February, and I had told Sue that I would hope to bring back some consensus from this group today if they wanted to start -- start these meetings in that month as opposed to March. CHAIRPERSON DEBOER: Mr. Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Sure. CHAIRPERSON DEBOER: Personally, yes, I would like to. I -- I'm also -- For our board, I'm also the lobbyist that goes up to Washington. So I will be starting those efforts in another two weeks. So I'm -- I'm ready -- COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: You're ready. CHAIRPERSON DEBOER: -- whenever. COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Is it the consensus then that -- that we call and reserve this apartment for February, or would you prefer to do it on a hotel basis? Because the committee meetings when you look at the schedule are basically in the mid part of the week. They're -- They're Monday through Thursdays. Appropriations committee especially is -- is the week of the 12th. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: If the cost is comparable, I would suggest a hotel. COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: It may be comparable, but an apartment winds up being about -- about $50 a night, and of course that includes whatever is included in it. So the hotel may be a little more expensive, but of course you're not going to have it every single night of the month; whereas, certainly an apartment would be every night that we'd be -- be paying for using it or not. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: I think the apartment got very little use on the weekend, for example. So those -- those are nights you're paying for that nobody was really there. It seems to me that you could make a case probably that a hotel would be more -- COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Well -- CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: -- cost-effective, and we don't need the computer on -- on site. So it would make sense to me. COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Again, you -- you -- you run into the same -- same considerations of answering machines, fax machines, and so forth. Hotels make those services available certainly. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Can I ask -- and this may be a question for all counties. When we approved the budget for this coming -- COHHISSIONER MATTHEWS: It was for three months. COHHISSIONER HANCOCK: It was for three months? COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: (Nodded head.) COHMISSIONER ALBION: How much is the apartment per month? COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Fourteen eighty-five. As I say, it runs 48, $49 a night. Somebody want to make a motion or -- COHMISSIONER COY: I'd rather stay -- COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: -- decide? COHMISSIONER COY: -- with the apartment, I think, for -- for consistency, and it avoids being in a different place and always knowing you have it and not have to find a hotel or whatever. I'd rather stay with the apartment. I -- I understand the chairman's point of Collier County too. I -- I'd rather do it that way. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Whatever. COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: February, March, and April. February, Hatch, and April. COHMISSIONER JUDAH: I'd second the motion if that's what you need. COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Well, we -- we can't take motions outside the county and -- and -- and vote on them. So I'm '- I'm just looking for some sort of idea and direction. COHMISSIONER JUDAH: Consensus. COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Consensus. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Regarding consensus, I'm all for February, and if the apartment's available -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Everybody nod. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: -- that's fine. COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Okay. I'll -- I'll ask Sue then to -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Nod. COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: I'll ask Sue then to expand that to the first week in February and -- and we'll be ready to go. COHMISSIONER CUHMINGS: That's a vertical rattle for the record. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: That's a vertical rattle. I like that. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: We want to get up there before the snowfall stops so -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: For the record, they nodded. COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: You're welcome. Fourth item on the agenda is the concept of an interlocal agreement between Lee and Collier counties to share the cost for a community traffic safety program coordinator partially funded by FDOT. Yes, George. MR. CRAWFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a program that has been started by FDOT in other counties and is -- We've had it in Lee County for a couple -- three years, and I believe it's now starting in Collier County, and the counties around Bartow or -- or -- or to the north in the district, they have a coordinator for these committees, these safety committees and the -- FDOT has suggested that they would be willing to fund a half of a position -- that is, the salary itself -- if Collier and Lee County would pick up the other fringe benefits that go with that which they say will not exceed $30,000. What we need is obviously an interlocal agreement with Collier County -- COHHISSIONER JUDAH: You go first. MR. CRAWFORD: -- to share that funding. Then a -- Then -- Then we will, in turn, take an interlocal agreement with FDOT to -- to do this. Later on if Collier -- if Charlotte County should happen to form such a safety coordinating committee, then they -- they may participate also. This has been a -- in -- in -- In Lee County it's brought together the enforcement agencies, the engineering agencies, and the educational people in a kind of united front in order to attack the problem. As you may or may not know, commission in Collier County, we -- we had a very exceedingly high death fatality situation in Lee County last year. It was drastically reduced this year. We think some of that goes to the education and -- and the ability for the news media to -- to publish some of these things, but that's what this is all about. It's worked very successfully. It would be better off to have a coordinator. We tried to use our staff. It really doesn't -- it doesn't work, and I think one coordinator could handle both -- both agencies. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: One question -- CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Constantine. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: One question I always ask -- My colleagues from Collier hear me ask this at least a dozen times every budget season, but I try to envision a 40-hour week and what any given position does from 8:00 to 5:00 every day as they come in and do their job. And as I look at community traffic safety program coordinator, I'm trying to visualize if I was the person holding that job, what I'd come in and do between 8:00 and 5:00 five days a week. MR. CRAWFORD: Well, there's a lot of things that are done. There's -- There's -- There's some money that is funneled from the state to -- to agencies within the counties in funding of -- of enforcement agencies and funding of schools, working with the school program. There is a lot of things, and I -- I can get into a long list I'm sure, and it does occupy a great deal of time. You have to remember that this individual would be working for both counties' agencies, both of these coordinating committees. So they'd be devoting about 20 hours each week to -- to each of the counties. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: So, for example, they would go to schools and talk about safety issues or -- MR. CRAWFORD: They deal with -- with the schools, the safety officers in dealing with safety issues and -- and -- and in the educational area, in the enforcement area. If you would like, Bob Register who is with FDOT here, regional office, I'm sure could give you some specifics, and that may be best for your level of comfort if you'd like. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: That'd be great. MR. CRAWFORD: If I can find Bob, we'll do it. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Ohhh, Bob? CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: While Bob's coming up, let me ask Mr. Dorrill if it would be appropriate for us to ask Mr. Perry to coordinate with Lee County and make a report, come back to us maybe at an MPO meeting -- MR. DORRILL: Either -- CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: -- perhaps -- MR. DORRILL: Either he or Mr. Kant who is your -- CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Okay. MR. DORRILL: -- your designated traffic engineer for the committee that we have. CHAIRPERSON NORRIS: Is -- Is that the appropriate way to -- to investigate this -- the person? MR. DORRILL: I think so. At first I thought -- when I saw this, I thought we were going to expand on our commitment to install traffic lights every 100 feet on every arterial road in our community which is what it seems like lately but -- COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Bob, I -- take my question very literally here. I -- I have this position. I come in on a Wednesday morning at 8 a.m. What do I start doing? MR. REGISTER: Okay. You'll be involved with the -- contacting individuals, contacting groups to coordinate these -- these projects that we -- we have going now. It involves not only enforcement and engineering projects, education, it also involves emergency services, the four Es that -- that are involved. The -- This person would be the -- the contact that -- that -- that each of the agencies would have to -- to -- to develop these -- these projects and provide the continuity from one month to the next. We've had several meetings in Lee County and -- and Collier County within the last year that they've had the CTSP team in Collier County, and there have been several good ideas that have been brought forth at each of these meetings. What we lack is the continuity of someone to -- to be there to provide the follow-through from one month to the next to make sure that -- that what's done at each of these meetings, the ideas that are brought forth are -- are carried through and something is done about them. And so that's the primary purpose of this -- this position, is to -- Take the -- the -- the minutes of the meeting, for instance. These meetings last sometimes a couple of hours, and this person would be responsible for bringing the minutes together and distributing those -- the minutes. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: And the position as proposed would cost how much annually? MR. REGISTER: Well, we're -- we're expecting about $30,000. Up to $30,000 would be provided by the state, and up to $30,000 would be provided by the local agencies. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: And that would pay salary, their transportation back and forth between the counties -- MR. REGISTER: Yes. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- a pencil and notebook to take those minutes at the meetings? MR. REGISTER: That's right. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Okay. THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me, sir. Could you state your name, please? MR. REGISTER: My name is Bob Register. I'm operations administrator for the southwest area office of the Department of Transportation. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Further questions? Yes, Commissioner Hancock, then Commissioner Albion. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: It seems that today I get to play Mr. Heany-pants more than once but -- COHMISSIONER HAC'KIE: We take turns. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: -- my -- my concern with the idea behind the community traffic safety program is -- is the local focus, and although I appreciate the offer by the FDOT and I will wait for our traffic folks to -- to give me the ins and outs of the program, my preliminary concern is that this is the type of layering that typically occurs when these programs get started that will begin funding at a base level and unfortunately grows and grows until we end up with an entire middle layer that is communicating from our local to the state, and I'm not sure that layer is necessary, so I'm a little hesitant to say let's -- let's forge on. I would like to see more information and have a more detailed understanding of the roles of this position, but I -- I'm -- I'm a little concerned. The community-based traffic planning is just that, community-based, and I -- I -- I'd like for that to remain the focus. I'm -- I'm a little hesitant about the layering. COMMISSIONER MANNING: Why don't we deduct it from the 500,0007 Would that be okay? COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: That -- That you never got? COMMISSIONER MANNING: Just kidding. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: That's it, pal. Me and you outside. UNKNOWN VOICE: In that case, you owe us 30,000 -- MR. CRAWFORD: Commissioner Hancock, we will -- I just talked to Neil. We will get with Ed Kant who used to work with me and -- and -- and -- and explain the program in detail so that there's a comfort level for you. And, Commissioner Constantine, your people only work 40 hours a week? I might apply for a job. I didn't realize that's -- that's all you had to work, but we will be glad to -- to answer your questions. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: That's all we pay him for. MR. CRAWFORD: That's all you're paying for. Okay. COMMISSIONER ALBION: George -- CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Commissioner Albion. COMMISSIONER ALBION: Yeah. I got a memo earlier today from Wayne Daltry of the Regional Planning Council, and I want to just basically try to summarize it. I think the concerns in here are pretty important. First, he wanted to make sure everyone is -- He's in favor of the concept, but it was going to be at the Southwest Florida Regional Planning Council's November meeting at FDOT's request, and they had -- then they asked for it to be deferred, but it's their understanding that the position is normally fully funded by FDOT and that -- in other locales. Now, they were supposed to get back to FDOT -- FDOT was supposed to get back, rather, to the Regional Planning Council about getting it rescheduled and getting this information as to where this stands. They have yet to do so. And what's of some concern is that, you know, now they're looking for us to cost-share. If everybody else is fully funding, that's clearing an inequity. Now, if this is -- If it's going to be that everyone is going to cost-share, then I think the -- the concern obviously disappears. But if everyone else is going to get it fully funded, I'm not in favor of the idea, George, that we try to go the route we're going and we essentially become the guy that gets the foot in the door for FDOT. So can you respond to that? (Chairperson Norris and Commissioner Hancock exited the meeting room.) MR. CRAWFORD: I can respond. As -- As far as I know, they're not, but I will -- I would suggest that -- that what happens is that -- that in deference to catching the Collier County Commission rather cold, which I don't like to do as you well know with each of you, I will -- will coordinate with Ed Kant. We'll get all these questions answered to your sat -- I don't think this is something that has to live or die today. It -- It -- It's something that we need to think about, but we'll have the questions so that the commission -- Collier commission can feel comfortable making a decision. COMHISSIONER ALBION: It would be helpful for me as the chair -- present chairman of this board at least -- or of the Regional Planning Council -- for at least another week and a half anyway -- to make sure that -- I'd like Wayne to get an answer to that because he deals with those other Regional Planning Council directors and so on, and I want to make sure his comfort level -- He's got more -- I don't know. He probably was around during the Stone Age at that position so MR. CRAWFORD: Just about. I will -- I will talk with Wayne. I have not gotten that document, but I certainly will talk with him and will -- will come back to both boards individually, if necessary, and give you all the details that you need to make an intelligent decision. COMHISSIONER ALBION: And just, you know, George, I didn't try to blindside you. This just came in at 11:42 today so -- MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, sir. Well, that's all right. I don't mind being blindsided. You do it quite frequently, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER ALBION: George, when's that contract up for renewal? CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Thanks, George. MR. CRAWFORD: You're welcome. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: And the last item on the agenda's been pulled and deferred to another time. So Commissioner Manning had a couple -- COHMISSIONER MANNING: Yeah. I'll -- I'll -- CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: -- items he wanted to bring forward. COHMISSIONER MANNING: -- try to be serious here for a minute now that the two negative votes from Collier have gone. No. No. No. I -- I -- I need -- I need both commissions' help on this one just to point me in the right direction. I don't know how it happened, but I was appointed to a statewide task force that will look at the -- the contract for America and how that will, you know, develop into problems and -- and hopefully solutions for cities and counties, and it's Lieutenant Governor HacKay's task force. Since we're on different political persuasions, I don't know how it happened, but that's -- Be that as it may, it's there. What I need from both counties is just point me in the right direction. My subcommittee is looking at Hedicaid, Hedicare, Human Services, and so if you can give me some suggestions to take with me to this task force -- they're going to start meeting at the end of this month -- I would appreciate that, number one. And, number two, we're also putting a statewide task force together on constitutional revision. If any of you want to serve on that, please float your name to me, and we'll try to get you involved in that. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Thank you. COHMISSIONER MANNING: I was extremely serious. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: Any other items to come before this iljustrious body this afternoon and/or comments? Seeing none, I thank you all for traveling to Lee County and -- COHMISSIONER MATTHEWS: Thank you for hosting us again. CHAIRPERSON ST. CERNY: -- we'll move onward and upward. We stand adjourned. There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 2:54 p.m. BOARD OF COUNTY COHMISSIONERS BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS CONTROL JOHN C. NORRIS, CHAIRPERSON ATTEST: DWIGHT E. BROCK, CLERK These minutes approved by the Board on as presented or as corrected TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF DONOVAN COURT REPORTING BY: Christine E. Whitfield, RPR