Loading...
BCC Minutes 10/17/1995 RREGULAR MEETING OF OCTOBER 17, 1995, OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COHMISSIONERS LET IT BE REHEHBERED, that the Board of County Commissioners in and for the County of Collier, and also acting as the Board of Zoning Appeals and as the governing board(s) of such special districts as have been created according to law and having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:10 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the CHAIRPERSON: following members present: ALSO PRESENT: Bettye J. Hatthews Timothy J. Constantine John C. Norris Timothy L. Hancock Pamela S. Hac'Kie W. Neil Dotrill, County Hanager David Weigel, County Attorney Item #3 & 3A AGENDA AND CONSENT AGENDA - APPROVED WITH CHANGES CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We'll call to order the Board of County Commission meeting for Tuesday, October 17th, 1995. Mr. Dotrill, will you lead us in an invocation and pledge. MR. DORRILL: Heavenly Father, we thank you this morning. As always, we thank you for this great nation. We thank you for our commander in chief and our elected officials. We are always thankful, and it's our prayer this morning that you would guide the hand and deliberations of our elected county commission as they make important business decisions for Collier County. Father, our prayer continues to go out to those in Bonita Springs and northern Collier County who are experiencing this awful flooding situation. It's our prayer that these people be uplifted and that there would be support there from their county governments and other -- others to reach out to them in this particular time of need. Finally, Father, this morning we ask that you bless our time here together, that it would be fruitful and a reflection of your will for our community. We pray these things in Jesus's name. Amen. (The pledge of allegiance was recited in unison.) CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Dorrill, we have a few changes. MR. DORRILL: Only two. Good morning, Commissioners. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Good morning. MR. DORRILL: These are requests for continuances. The first is under public hearings. It's a continuation of item 12(B)(1) as it pertains to the PUD amendment for Hideaway Beach, and that will be continued until your first meeting in November, November the 7th. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I have a question about that item, if I could. I guess -- we have a county attorney. Is there anything in -- I know that we agreed in concept to the proposed settlement agreement among the parties there, and my understanding is is that there was nothing that we agreed to in that settlement agreement that affects our decision in the PUD amendment. Have we bound ourselves in any way to a particular setback in the PUD amendment by virtue of the settlement agreement? MR. WEIGEL: It's an indirect -- it's an indirect relationship that exists, Commissioner. In the settlement agreement the various parties have committed to make payments to achieve a result that all parties are agreeing to. And those -- part -- part of the result is a -- in the PUD amendment is a reconturing of the roadway that affects the party in chief as well as adjacent -- and the property in chief, I should say, and the adjacent properties. And inasmuch as one of the parties at least temporarily has decided not to contribute the otherwise agreed to amount toward the settlement agreement, this may affect the PUD amendment in the sense that the right of way that may be changed and the setbacks that may be changed will not necessarily apply to all the properties in the current PUD draft. There may be a re -- a retooling of that language based upon the relationship of the parties. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Basically my question is that in the settlement agreement the parties have agreed how to resolve their differences on the particular properties that were subject to the lawsuit. My question is, am I bound to a 30/20, or can I do a different setback. Can I vote for a different setback in the PUD amendment? MR. WEIGEL: You -- you could vote for a different setback in the PUD amendment. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I just wanted to be sure of that MR. WEIGEL: Yeah. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: -- because all these continuances keep making me nervous that people are tying the PUD amendment to the settlement agreement. You know it's been my sermonette up here that they have to be separate, and I just wanted to be sure. MR. WEIGEL: Certainly. And the fact is that since we have more property interests involved than the initial -- than the initial lawsuit indicated, that would be several adjacent properties, the PUD amendment affects zoning there for setback and road relocation which is more than the Vasey or the Gibson properties. So from that standpoint it's -- it's a larger -- it's a larger type of change, although it's indirectly referenced in the -- in the settlement agreement itself, because the settlement agreement provides the money wherewithal for some of these changes to be done. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Uh-huh. MR. WEIGEL: But, yes, you are never bound in a public hearing or ordinance adoption such as PUD or others to have a predetermined decision. There is a public hearing and the ability to decide as you wish. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Thank you. MR. DORRILL: Miss Matthews, the other item to be continued is 16(A)(ll) which was on your consent agenda, and that pertains to a final plat for the Roberts Ridge PUD in Immokalee. We're also asking that that be continued until November the 7th at the request of the petitioner. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you. Mr. Weigel, do you have additional changes? MR. WEIGEL: No, thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER NORRIS: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Hancock? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Norris? Nothing today. Thank you. Commissioner No, ma'am. Commissioner Mac'Kie? Nothing. Commissioner Constantine? COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I have one brief item under communication. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And I, too, have a brief item under communication. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Is there a motion for the agenda? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Motion to approve the agenda as presented and with changes as noted. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'll second the motion. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We have a motion and a second to approve the agenda and consent agenda as amended. All in favor, please say aye. Opposed? There being none, motion passes five to zero. Item #4 MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 19, 1995, BUDGET MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 20, 1995, AND VALUE ADJUSTMENT BOARD OF SEPTEMBER 25, 1995 - APPROVED AS PRESENTED Motion on the minutes? COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Madam Chairman, motion to approve the minutes of September 19 regular meeting, September 20 budget meeting, and September 25 Value Adjustment Board all in 1995. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Second. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We have a motion and a second to approve the minutes of three different meetings. All in favor, please say aye. Opposed? There being none, motion passes five to zero. Next item is a proclamation. Commissioner Norris. Item #5A1 PROCLAivLATION DESIGNATING THE WEEK OF OCTOBER 15 - 21, 1995, AS LATIN AMERICAN HERITAGE WEEK IN COLLIER COUNTY - ADOPTED COMHISSIONER NORRIS: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I have a proclamation to read here. I'd like to ask Frank Rodriguez and Ivette Saco to please come forward. Come up here, please, and turn around and face the -- the people in TV-land out there so they can see who you are. The proclamation reads: Whereas, the American people are the recipients and beneficiaries of the cultural diversity represented by citizens from all over the world; and Whereas, millions of Latin Americans have become vital members of our nation identifying themselves with our philosophy of liberty, justice, and equality; and Whereas, the Latin community of Collier County, represented by the Latin American Business and Professional Association, is bonding with the community at large; and Whereas, the Latin American Business and Professional Association embraced the mission of preserving the Latin cultural heritage and motivating the youth to become better citizens by reaching higher levels of education and professionalism; and Whereas, the Latin American Business and Professional Association will commemorate the Latin heritage in the United States of America by sponsoring a cultural event to benefit its educational scholarship fund. Now, therefore, be it proclaimed by the Board of County Commissioners of Collier County, Florida, that the week of October 15th to the 21st, 1995, be designated as Latin American Heritage Week in Collier County. Done and ordered this 17th day of October, 1995, by the Board of County Commissioners of Collier County, Florida. Madam Chairman, I'd like to make a motion that we accept this proclamation. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Second. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Motion and a second to accept the proclamation. All in favor, please say aye. Opposed? There being none, motion passes five to zero. (Applause) COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Please say a few words. MR. RODRIGUEZ: I'd like to take the opportunity first to say thank you and at the same time to bring -- give you a very brief update as to the Latin American Business and Professional Association. And in four years we have been able to positively help and impact education in our youth by granting scholarships that -- for which we have been able to raise funds from events similar to the one that we will be holding on October the 21st. And we intend to expand that. As a matter of fact, we have been able to add scholarships for adults also going back to college to pursue a higher degree or to maybe complete a degree. So we're looking into education very closely, and we -- we feel, and we are convinced that that is the foundation of good citizenship and -- and also to provide our input in the economy. Another thing that we would be looking for is to promote cultural events, and the one that we have been promoting probably in the future will be expanded to be kind of a folkloric type of cultural event with intention of turning that into annual festivity that will be at the same time a tourist attraction to the county. So we are looking that way into the future. And we also are looking to work and promote small business entrepreneurs in the minority community by probably creating some type of resource center where we'll be able to provide services. And basically that's our vision and -- and that's what we are looking forward to -- to work in the future with Collier County. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Sounds like a good plan to me. MS. SACO: I'd just like to thank everyone, the commission for the proclamation. I am also very pleased that Commissioner Norris will be joining us on Saturday night. Thank you for accepting our invitation, and I'm sure that you'll enjoy. And thank you again for your support. COMMISSIONER NORRIS: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you. (Applause) Item #5B EHPLOYEE SERVICE AWARDS - PRESENTED CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Next item on the agenda are service awards. Commissioner Hancock. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I have the pleasure this morning of recognizing and thanking two employees for continued service to Collier County. The first receiving a 15-year recognition and pin is Miss Rhonda Snell with purchasing. Miss Snell. (Applause) COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: The second I would like to recognize, Miss Teresa Beck with agriculture for ten years. Miss Beck. (Applause) Item #5C1 VIRGINIA HILLER, SUPPORT SERVICES DIVISION, RECOGNIZED AS EHPLOYEE OF THE MONTH FOR OCTOBER, 1995 CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Next item on the agenda is a presentation. Virginia Miller, are you here? Once a month it gives me pleasure, and I'm sure it's given every chairman pleasure to present a recommendation to recognize an employee of Collier County as the employee of the month. This month Virginia Miller is such an employee. Do you want to turn around so that -- yeah, so that we can see you while I talk about what you've been up to. Virginia has been in the employ of Collier County since 1991, and by successive promotion she has achieved the position of senior fiscal clerk in the department of revenue. Virginia was instrumental in establishing the solid waste mandatory program which is of great significance to the county and the residents. This endeavor had involved long and hard-working hours. She was then promoted to the department of revenue where she has gone over and above the call of duty to help solve problems in the field. The department director received scores of calls commending Virginia for superior customer relations and people skills. In addition, her immediate supervisor considers that she is doing the volume of work properly assigned to two people. Mr. Dotrill, can we clone her? Virginia contributes to the morale of her department and remains a loyal employee to the county, and it is without any reservation that she was nominated and selected as employee of the month for October 1995. Virginia, I have for you a letter from the county commission that it is, indeed, a pleasure to announce your selection as employee of the month; a plaque that says Collier County, Board of County Commissioners, Collier County, Florida, employee of the month, official recognition and appreciation is tendered to Virginia Miller for exceptional performance, October 1995. This is yours and the spendable check that goes with that. And, of course, you're also eligible for employee for the year. And I want to thank you very, very much. (Applause) CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And we have one more presentation. We need to find more people like her. MR. DORRILL: Trying. Item #5C2 GUY CARLTON, TAX COLLECTOR, PRESENTED A CHECK TO THE BCC IN THE AMOUNT OF $2,199,938.01 CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I know we're trying. One more presentation. Mr. Carlton. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: All gussied up today. You look great. MR. CARLTON: Good morning, Commissioners. In keeping with the spirit of the approaching World Series, Yogi Berra when ordering pizza one day was asked by his waitress if he wanted the pizza cut in four pieces or eight, and he responded saying he couldn't possibly eat eight pieces. I would hope -- well, it's obvious that Yogi Berra was impressed with large numbers. I hope that you will be equally impressed with the large numbers on this check. I would hope you'd also be impressed with the discipline and dedication of the tax collector staff to arrive at these numbers. I know there's -- a demand on tax dollars is great, and I hope this check will ease that demand. As you know, not every tax collector, but the tax collector of Collier County is a fee officer. Those fees are set in the Florida Statutes, and we are obligated to meet the needs of our office through those fees. This year the tax collector's office is returning back to the taxpayers of Collier County 2.4 million. The board's portion of that will be $2,199,938.01. It's with great pleasure, Madam Chairman, that I present to you this check. (Applause) CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I'll take it. Thank you. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: That's not made out to Bettye, is it? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: That was a good speech. Is there an election year coming up? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Mitchell. See, Mr. Mitchell. MR. CARLTON: Oh, good move. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Thank you, Guy. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you, Guy. As I turn it over to you, I'm sure, to properly invest it. MR. MITCHELL: Yes, ma'am. Item #SB1 CHANGE ORDER #4 FOR EFFLUENT HANAGEHENT SYSTEH IHPROVEHENTS AT THE NORTH COUNTY REGIONAL WASTEWATER TREATMENT FACILITY - APPROVED CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Next item on the agenda is under the manager's report, 8(B)(1), public works, change order number 4 for the north county regional wastewater treatment facility. MR. GONZALEZ: Good morning. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Excuse me, Mr. Gonzalez. I'd like to make a motion we approve staff recommendation on this item. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Do we have a second before the motion? COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: approve the staff recommendation on this item. discussion? All in favor, please say aye. Opposed? Motion passes five to zero. COHHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Another great job. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Great presentation. Yes, ma'am. We have a motion and a second to Is there a Item #8C1 DISCUSSION REGARDING THE CONSTRUCTION AND OPERATION OF A PUBLIC GOLF COURSE - STAFF DIRECTED TO CONTINUE WORKING WITH COLLIER COUNTY GOLF AUTHORITY WITH NO FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY TO THE COUNTY Next item on the agenda is 8(C)(1). This probably won't go as fast, the recommendation for a public golf course. Mr. Olliff. MR. OLLIFF: Good morning. For the record, Tom Olliff, your public services administrator. This item is just that, an item to review a proposal for a public golf course here in Collier County. The golf course is proposed to be constructed on -- on land adjacent to the current Collier County landfill at the intersection of 951 and 1-75. The proposed property is approximately 280 acres in size. The proposal was originally presented to the county commission, and the board directed the staff to work with the Collier County Golf Authority, who is the organization who is actually making this proposal, to the county to go back and review a little more in detail. And that's what we've provided for you today, a little more detail about the proposal that they're going to present to you. In our looking at the actual information they provided, suggested and they agreed and had a feasibility study done by a third party, which is the National Golf Foundation, and I think copies have been provided to each of you that was done for this proposed golf facility. As part of that study, the study actually indicated that there is a current undersupply of rounds of golf estimated to be 271,000 rounds per year currently. That undersupply was projected to increase to 400,000 rounds by the year 2000. And that number, according to the study, was put together knowing which courses were currently under construction and were planned to be built over that same period of time, so that took into account new golf courses coming on line in that same period. The study projects that the first year of operation the course would generate 52,000 rounds of golf. And we provided in the executive summary some comparisons to other area local golf courses, and we tried to focus on public courses so that you would get some sort of a -- as close to an apple-to-apple comparison as we could provide for you. Fifty-two thousand rounds is a fairly conservative number if you're looking at some of the other courses in the area that range anywhere from forty-five to seventy thousand rounds a year. In terms of the actual operational finances, the report goes on to project that the course from an operation standpoint would turn a profit in year one of $475,000. As the executive summary indicates, that doesn't take into account any debt service payments that are required for the initial construction cost. That operating profit is expected to increase to about one and a half million dollars in the year ten and grows from that point forward. Those -- those projections were based on a fee schedule of $20 during the summer. That includes cart fees, up to a seasonal rate of $37 during the season. It also indicates that there would be no memberships involved in this course and that there would be no participation in summer discount cards. To compare that to other area rates, we've provided in the executive summary, again, some comparisons of some public golf courses and their summer and seasonal rates. And those rates will range anywhere from $15 in the summer all the way up to a high of $119 per round during the season at some of the local courses. In the -- in the fiscal impact statement, we tried to cover what is the largest determining factor in the proposal in front of you, and that is the cost of the initial capital construction. Capital construction is proposed to be funded through a revenue bond that would be issued by Collier County. And as indicated in the fiscal impact statement, there's two ways that that bond can actually be structured. It can be structured so that the golf authority and the golf course are the only pledge available to make the debt service payments annually, or Collier County can, if you will, co-sign that bond issue and would -- and of their proposal become a third pledge on the revenues. They're proposing that the golf course would be the initial pledge, that they would establish a debt service reserve in an amount equal to at least one full year's debt service payments as the second pledge. Finally, Collier County, because it is a revenue bond, would be in a position of having to pledge non-ad valorem revenues should either of those first two revenue sources not meet the debt service payments. The land is actually proposed to be leased or purchased by the authority and then leased back to the county which then is the mechanism that the county can actually issue the bonds for the project. It's our understanding that under such a proposal that the actual bond doesn't count toward the county's total bond indebtedness if it's done through a leaseback program as proposed. The authority has also indicated a willingness to provide some additional revenue, windows realized back to the county for uses in either future golf and/or recreational avenues. But, again, the primary issue here is if and when the course actually makes money. If you'll look on page 9 of your agenda package, we provided for you from the feasibility study the actual proposed revenue and expense estimates. If you'll look at the bottom of that page, you'll see -- I'm sorry. It's actually page 8 in your executive summary package. If you'll look at the net operating income line at the bottom of that page, you will see both the net operating incomes, and that is the amount of funding that would be available to pledge towards debt service. So in year one there's that $474,800 number which rises to a million dollars in year three in the projection. Now, depending on what interest rate the actual bond issue is issued at, the debt service payments can range anywhere from $576,000 all the way up to somewhere in the neighborhood of $800,000, depending on whether it's a 9 percent or a 6 percent interest rate. That interest rate is contingent upon whether or not the county is involved. It's projected that if the county were to, again, co-sign, if you will, the interest rate that would be obtained would probably be more in the neighborhood of 6 percent. If the county weren't involved in the actual pledge, the interest rate would probably be closer to 9 percent. What's being proposed is a 27-hole golf course. The reason it's being proposed that way is so that, one, you can have more rounds, more people playing at a single time. And secondly, when you need to do work on a golf course, you can take one 9 out of service and continue to have 18 up and available for the general public. We did need to point out that we did some research into the local area municipal golf courses, and we looked at the three courses which are our nearest neighbors, two that are operated by the City of Fort Myers and one by Cape Coral. All three of those, the financial statements from this most recent year indicate that they operated at a loss. The two Fort Myers courses actually in combination had an operational loss of $130,000, and that was before they made their debt service payments. In addition to their operations, they ended up paying $576,000 in public debt. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Excuse me, Tom. You said they operated at a loss before they made their debt service payment? MR. OLLIFF: Correct. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: You mean just the straight maintenance costs weren't even covered by rounds played and fees charged? MR. OLLIFF: Correct. And as the executive summary indicates, the key difference between the feasibility study that was done for this golf course and the financial statements that we reviewed from those two courses in the City of Fort Myers were primarily in the operating expense side. Fort Myers courses are showing a 4 million dollar expense to operate the two 18-hole golf courses that they have. So that averages about 2 million dollars per golf course annual operating cost, significantly different than what is projected in the feasibility study of 1.3 million dollars for operating expenses of the 27-hole golf course here in Collier County. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Olliff, what are the fees at the public courses? MR. OLLIFF: I'll have to look that up, and I'll get that for you as they're making their presentation. Lastly -- COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: One other thing maybe you know or maybe you can check is surrounding courses and surrounded -- surrounding pricing in Fort Myers as well, because I suspect there may be some more availability at a reasonable price in Fort Myers than there is here. Commissioner Matthews, I just can't fathom spending $120 on a round of golf, but obviously a lot of people here do. MR. OLLIFF: Lastly, while we didn't get it in time for the executive summary here, we did finally get some financial statements for the Cape Coral golf course, and they lost money operating as well. They lost in the neighborhood of $130,000 on their operations last year, and I can't tell from the financial statements whether or not they actually have bond debt as part of their expenses or not, but I know that they did lose some money. With that I think the Collier County Golf Authority is here and -- and can make a presentation about the specifics of their development and the golf course operation itself and are available to answer some questions for you. The decision before us today is, one, whether or not you want to direct your staff to continue to participate in the development and operation of this public golf course; and, two, if you do, what level of participation in the actual bond issue do you want the county to have. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Hancock. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Mr. Olliff, in looking at the financial statements of the courses that you have received, are things such as the pro shop revenue and food and beverage revenue that's projected by the Collier County Golf Authority, are they similar? Are they ball park? We've talked about maintenance. I'm curious if the pro shop revenues and food and beverage revenues are in line with what you've seen otherwise. Take a look at it. If you don't have it right now, if you could just take a look at it. MR. OLLIFF: I will. I don't think the financial statement is broken down by actual segments of operation that way, so I think I've got sort of a lump-sum operating cost number to work from. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. That's fine. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I have one other question. In this projection that you put together for the ten-year period, do you have any consideration in here for the cost of the land? MR. OLLIFF: My understanding is that the original development bond cost is designed to include repayment to the solid waste fund for the cost of the land. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: That would be the 8 million dollar figure includes land and construction of 27 holes? MR. OLLIFF: Correct. And I'll let the authority members tell you a little more about what the initial development costs are and how they -- how they came about that number. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Why don't we hear from the authority members. MR. DORRILL: Commissioner Glass will lead. They have approximately four or five individuals as part of their presentation. Then you have another four or five members of the public who have asked to speak. Good morning, Commissioner. MR. GLASS: Good morning, Commissioners. First, I want to thank you for even hearing us after all these years. It's a refreshing change for a board that's kind of looking to the future for the citizens. I want to -- I'll introduce the people who are here today. I have David Shaw, Kemper, now Eveten as of this week when they bought out Kemper; Jim O'Connor, raise your hand; and Jack Breeden, the association president. I'm the chairman of the board. We want to thank you for what you're doing at least in reviewing us, and we're looking into -- what we're emphasizing today is a review with an order to allow us to go on and give you the final step where you will get all the detailed financial things from the bond summaries and everything else if you tell us to go forward at the next time we meet. You all have received copies of our feasibility study. It was repaired -- it was prepared independently by the National Golf Foundation, which is one of the most highly accredited reviewers of golf course activities of all types in the United States. This feasibility study is one of three that we've completed for this area over the past couple of years, and they all indicate that a public golf course will be a success in Collier County. We know from the feasibility studies that have been done for this year alone there's 217,000 more rounds needed for people -- ability for more rounds for people to play. And that -- that number by the year 2000 will be 400,000 rounds. So we're falling faster and faster behind. And I have to say one thing. One of the reasons that I devoted a lot of time to this, I made my father a promise when he was dying that I'd go out there, and I'd work to get this public course built so people like him and other citizens of this county can have a place to play at a reasonable fee, particularly in the season when they're almost a hundred percent excluded from playing golf in this county, as most of you know that play golf. We will be depositing upon the execution of the bond the complete debt service for -- that maximum annual debt service that's required for the first year. Then after we complete construction, we will be doing a debt service reserve on a monthly basis, which means we'll be depositing money to the trustee on a monthly basis with a report and a report to Tom Olliff, if he's the designated one that we'll be working with, so you'll know all the time what's going on at that course and where the money is and where it's gone. Now, we are doing that mainly because we don't want any pop-up surprises or secrets, as we told you. You'll know everything we have all the time and where everything has gone. We're going to be working very hard to make this a success. There's a lot of things that have gone on in the past at different areas, and there have never been, you know, approval of a potential for a public golf course. Mr. Breeden and his associates originally in 1979 started this nonprofit foundation so that they could build a course. Well, it didn't come to fruition. Carl Loveday said yesterday that Lely donated a million dollars for this course to be built. Well, Lely never donated a million dollars. They did donate 500,000 in the original context many, many years ago, which we have a substantial amount in our reserves now. We were looking forward to -- in the feasibility study it references to a one-year buildout. When you see this summer -- right now a one-year buildout may not be a good idea, so we're extending our look for an 18-month period so that there's no way that we could get crippled by not having enough time to build it. We're hoping the weather will change. As it is right now -- like now, it looks like Providence and E1 Nino and a few other celestial bodies are deciding that we're going back into a geologic cycle that's going to be more humid, more hot, more storm damaging, which is nothing unusual because it happens periodically throughout this earth's history. I guess we're going to be some of the observers of some of it. Now, the question -- there's an 8 million dollar maximum on this bond. It's not meaning that we're going to spend all that 8 million dollars. Host likely it will be a lot less. But included in that is some county needs. One, some -- we're going to do clearing and structuring for some park services that they want out there we'll be able to do. Two, the road, it's required to come in by the new -- the water plant down there off of 951, because of the new exit from 1-75 has to be changed so the trash trucks and everybody else can get into the trash dump. We have put -- that number includes an ability to participate in that road building project, which I think is based on a fair-share basis. And since we're going to be doing a lot down there, I think probably we'll be told we have a pretty fair share to do. We're looking forward to doing this, and we know based on the studies that we've been over and over from independent sources that this will be a successful project. We also know there's about 75,000 people from the surveys we've had done in -- through the golf foundation inquiries that want to go play golf in the wintertime here, citizens that are permanent residents. And we're going to provide something for them finally. We're working with the Conservancy to work out some details that I mentioned, each one of you individually so that they can have a nature trail and other things, and we're talking about -- talking with the parks people, in particular my friend Steve back there, that we're going to try to provide some parks areas for the families and everything else for anywhere in Collier County if they're out there in that area, so it will be a dual purpose. We'll have the golf course, and we'll have some passive -- or whatever they decide you really need out there, there's room for it. We're working very closely with the environmental people, too, because if you know, that area has got a lot of critters that run around that we like to take care of. Host people don't know that I'm half Cherokee, and I know another Cherokee in this room so that are -- they're real interested in making sure that we take care of that kind of thing. What we're looking for is an approval to go forward with Tom Giblin (phonetic) as the bond counsel who we've been working with at the desire of the county and for the Collier Golf Authority and for our bond underwriters to go forward and put this bonding thing together so you have something to look at with all of the final numbers and everything before you make a final decision. And I think that you'll find once it gets all together, it's going to stand on its Own. We have -- we're also looking under the situation to have authority to provide and finish the production of the bond documents that we need. And then we are looking, and from obviously what we believe is the best situation, approval of option two in Mr. Olliff's report to the board. Now, if you have any questions, I'll answer them. If I can, I'll bring the bond council -- bond underwriters up here. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. Commissioner Hancock. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: This may or may not be a question for you, Mr. Glass, but how much does the golf authority have in reserves currently? MR. GLASS: $340,000. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Because obviously in the first two years under the more -- the less lenient financing plan you have a shortfall in paying the debt service. So my question is, until your projected revenues are to a level that the debt service can be paid, how do you plan on making up the difference? MR. GLASS: Actually our reserve that we're depositing on closing of the bond will cover the first whole year's debt service. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. So the second year would be the one of concern then. If I were sitting in your shoes of making that -- that debt service payment, the second year would then be of concern. My question is -- you know, and maybe you can answer it as you come through and speak. I just want to register that as a -- just a straight funding -- MR. GLASS: Better answer right now before people forget their answer. MR. SHAW: Hi. I'm David Shaw with Eveten Securities. We were Kemper till a week ago when we bought ourselves out through the ESOPs. Everybody's wondering what Eveten stands for; that's where we're coming from. The cash flows that were used to provide debt service payments there was with a level principal and interest payment over 20 years. Quite obviously as we structure debt we can change and move principal payments to positions that help those cash flows work better. When they ran the debt service study, from my understanding, and from the feasibility study, it was level principal and interest payments. Traditionally as we structured that we structured the cash flows of the entity that's paying the debt so we can move more principal back into the transaction and lower those first year debt payments, and that makes the cash flows work. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Okay. Thank you. MR. GLASS: My Navy captain stuff comes out once in awhile. Any other questions I can answer? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Norris. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Mr. Glass, you and your group have come to my office a couple of times to talk about this, and on every occasion I have been very enthusiastic about getting a golf course -- another public golf course in town, but my one reservation has always been that I don't want to see the Collier County taxpayer or Collier County government end up in a position of having to help fund this. You have always given me the -- your assurance that this was not going to happen, and I just -- my question today is do you still give us those same assurances. MR. GLASS: I talked yesterday again with the vice president of the National Golf Foundation and told him what I was thinking about about taxpayers in some places stepping up to the plate. And he said that in his view -- and it's not in the report, because we told him be extremely conservative -- that we'll be making much more money in the second year than people will believe from then on. And it's just -- from everything they've done talking to all of the facilities here -- and they talked to every golf facility just about in this county and Lee County -- that they think that we have a project that's going to be so popular that we'll be drawing people away from them, although they're not worried about it because they have a membership. That's a question that came up in here, that why is there a deficit in Lee County. Well, Lee County has a total of 1,400 members on those golf courses, which means that they pay for about $6 a round, the members. In addition to that, the rest of the course, because of the operations that they run, including a massive restaurant building on one of them that has no relationship to the course, completely takes away their money. And actually the course at Eastwood supplements the rest of the activities up there to the tune of $150,000 a year right off -- the average off their budget each year. They transfer funds that's not even listed as operating funds or anything; it's just a transfer. So that goes off their thing. So we don't have membership. We're going to be playing with citizens in a straight -- everybody here gets a preference on time. And if you're a Collier County citizen -- and the way we'll work it out, we're going to have a very strong management team that we're putting together. We're interviewing people now. It's some quite expense to bring someone around to make sure we get the best people available in this field for us to work with. And we are looking forward to a very successful one, and probably I'd mortgage my house on it. It would cover half a year's payment on it maybe. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We might require you to do that. MR. GLASS: No problem. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Constantine. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: A couple of questions in reference to the Fort Myers comment. One, you indicated a number of those are members -- MR. GLASS: 1400 altogether. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- so the number of people playing per round is similar? MR. SHAW: Yeah. 72,000 rounds they played this year, so that's how much of a detraction there is in the cost because they got a significant deep discount, old-timers. If we had a golf course like that, we would phase it out with no more new membership, but they've been selling it ever since. COMHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: How do you explain the differential if they're paying 4 million dollars to operate 36 holes annually? How do we operate 27 holes at 1.37 MR. GLASS: Well, economy of scale and expertise, and we're not supporting buildings that aren't related to the golf courses. A lot of their monies flow to pay certain things in the city, and they use it as a cash cow when they can get it to help offset the nonpayment of interest payments that they haven't paid for quite some time. That's from rooting up in there in their archives and coming with their annual reports that we couldn't get it from the city government itself. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Any other questions? I've got a couple. How long does it take to build a course? MR. SHAW: Normally under ideal conditions or good conditions, you can get it done within eight to nine months to a year. We have certain things out in this place like, in fact, our attorney is working on it with the odor that's emitted by the landfill. And there is a contractual obligation upon the part of Waste Management to correct that, and the time ticker is getting toward the end of that time ticker that they're supposed to have it done. There's a lot of rock in that area, so we're going to be looking at other ways, and we have a -- do we have our plan with us this morning? Yeah, oh, Gordon Lewis, the architect for the course, is here too if you have some courses -- questions. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I'm just asking how long it takes to build it. MR. GLASS: It's going to take us one year if we don't have 90 inches of rain again. If it isn't, we're going to go to the 16 months. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, there are those who say we're moving into a wet cycle so -- MR. GLASS: I can't hear you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: There are those who are saying that we are moving into a wet cycle. With that in mind, is it two years? MR. GLASS: No, it's going to be 18 months. MR. SHAW: Madam Chairman, we have asked -- as underwriters we put our name on it as well -- is that they came back with a projection of one year. We asked for 18 months' worth of capitalized interest. In other words, we have 18 months to get the course finished, which is 50 percent additional longer than normal. Actually it's about 70 percent because it usually takes about nine months is what our experience is. So we've taken it out to 18 months in case we get 6 inches of rain on some Wednesday and it slows it down. We don't -- we do not as an underwriter want this course when Jack Breeden hits the first ball off the first tee to be in the hole before we ever get started, and that's why we've given ourselves a substantial amount more construction time than necessary. If those funds aren't needed, then it will go in the reserve fund and actually build that up additionally. So we do have precautionary areas. But we'd let Arnold hit the first ball, but he'd probably hit somebody, so we won't let that happen. MR. GLASS: He's afraid I'd hurt somebody. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: And the projections on these numbers indicates that at least for the first three years really, because the first year is construction, and then we've got two years' worth of operating in which there's not enough money to cover the debt service. But on a 20-year level basis -- but you're willing to structure the debt service so that this will cover -- MR. SHAW: That's correct. We can readjust the debt service payments. We can move principal payments back. The other thing there is they have used the maximum interest rate of 9 percent. If we receive the covenant, we believe we can sell them for somewhere, depending on market conditions, around 6. That makes all those numbers flow through to the point where it works out perfectly. And we -- we would expect a maximum coverage of somewhere around 125 to 150 a year. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Is that 6 percent based on the county jumping into this? MR. SHAW: That is as a co-sign type of situation, yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, I think I've heard at least one commissioner say that they're not in favor of the county putting their credit behind this. I'm not in favor of the county putting the credit -- its credit behind this. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I'm not in favor of the county putting it's credit -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So back to 9 percent. MR. SHAW: Well, what will happen is we will go back with the authority. The rate -- the cost of play would obviously have to go up to make sure that we have those coverages. It doesn't take a lot of increase in per-round cost to drive that price up if we need to. The projections that we've given you obviously are a pro forma. When we get the final structure and we can work the transactions in, we can give you final numbers. But the one effect it would have is it would drive that cost of play up some so we would have that coverage. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I would say it would do a lot. I mean, 9 percent at 8 million dollars, it's not hard to see that on a steady stream. And I don't care how you arrange the payments. It's $720,000 a year in just interest. And if you're going to move that money around so that the payments in the early years fit this, we're going to be paying interest on the interest because that's borrowed money too. MR. SHAW: Well, you'd be paying -- you would not be making principal payments. You would be paying some interest on interest. But what you would do is obviously move the principal payment as close to the front as you can to lower the cost. We have not -- we have run financials at a six and six and a half percent basis. We have not run them at a nine or nine and a half so we'd know exactly where to place that principal, but we would have to do some rearranges. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: So these numbers in front of us are for six? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: These numbers are what they're saying are what it's going to cost to operate and produce whatever revenue. The net operating income is what's available for debt service. And when I see $474,000 in the first year knowing that the interest is going to be $720,000, that tells me we're paying interest on $300,000 worth of interest at least in the second year. MR. SHAW: At least in the second year. That's correct. But we also feel that the numbers -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Are you sure you're not digging a hole that you can't get out of? MR. SHAW: Not particularly. That happens quite a bit in revenue -- in revenue bond issues that we structure in that manner. The other thing that we're looking at is the numbers you're looking at is maximum costs. Obviously the costs could be substantially less. There are things that they're building into this project with the idea for public service besides golf, public use besides golf courses. And so a lot of that could be eliminated, and the cost could be lowered. We're trying to ride the biggest bang in this study that we can. Obviously your approval of wherever we go today is not the final approval. You would have another review of it when the bond documents are finished, and it can go forward. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I had one other question. It deals with the maintenance because, of course, maintenance is something, of course, that's going to cause people to want to come back and play again and again and again. And I don't know anything about golf courses, but a 6 percent of capital investment annual maintenance, is that -- is that a realistic number? I don't know. But I need somebody to tell me whether that is. MR. GLASS: Actually the average cost of maintenance in Collier County varies between private clubs and some that have some public play. It typically will be in the $450,000 a year range for the maintenance portion of it. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: But is that maintenance at private clubs that causes people to be willing to pay seventy or eighty dollars a round? MR. GLASS: They're not going to pay seventy or eighty dollars a round. We're not going to build a course here that's going to cost that, period. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Well, Mr. Glass, I think you just missed my point. MR. GLASS: I'm telling you -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It's the maintenance on these private courses that -- MR. GLASS: We have a very unique -- well, our architect is here, and the design he's doing gives us a good maintenance capability. But we are not going to have -- the heavy thing that you see on the private courses is -- you're talking about, drive in. You see main boulevards lined with all -- that's all in their budget. We don't have a budget like that. We have a very nice golf course. It's very pretty, and it's going to be kept up, and it's going to be kept up on a first-class basis, and we don't have to spend a million dollars or like Audubon, $850,000, because we don't have all those homes that we have to take care of too. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Commissioner MAtthews, I understand your point that often public courses are in rougher shape then private courses and the differential in maintenance cost. I know my dad lives in Veto Beach, and they have a public course over there, Sand Ridge, which has 36 holes that they -- I have no idea -- we can find out. I have no idea what the maintenance costs are, but despite the fact it is a public course, its upkeep compares with virtually any private course. It can be done, and they're fairly cost effective over there too. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I guess my question is on an 8 million dollar construction budget is a half a million dollars a year worth of maintenance realistic here in south -- south Florida where things seem to blossom overnight. Why don't we hear from the other speakers. MR. SHAW: Jim, do you want to answer that question? MR. DORRILL: And this should be Mr. O'Connor. MR. O'CONNOR: My name is Jim O'Connor. With respect to your question, Commissioner Matthews, specifically on the maintenance cost, you'll find it will run anywhere from four hundred fifty up to nine hundred thousand dollar maintenance on an 18-hole course. So I would say that six hundred thousand, six fifty that we're proposing in this area for a 27-hole course is very commensurate with a public -- rather, with a private course. I think you'll find that the results will be very, very similar. But the cost is not out of line in any way, shape, or form. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I mean, I'm just wanting to make sure that there's enough maintenance to get players continuing to come back, not that it's too high. I'm concerned it's too low. MR. O'CONNOR: I don't think it's too low. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. MR. O'CONNOR: And we've projected in annual increases that will provide for cost increases as they -- as they occur, both in the ways of salaries -- and your biggest expenses are in your chemicals and your fertilizers, et cetera, so forth. I don't think it's too low, nor do I think it's too high. It's probably just about right. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Dorrill, we have other speakers? MR. DORRILL: Yes, ma'am, Mr. Breeden. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Probably be helpful to point out that I have a feeling there are people in this community that -- MR. BREEDEN: Hi. My name is Jack Breeden. I'm the president of the Collier Golf Authority as everybody knows. The maintenance on a golf course is strictly -- depending on what kind of maintenance you are having, you cannot maintain little exotic tee houses, fancy rose gardens and expect to keep a low maintenance figure. Now, most of your private golf courses or semiprivate golf courses have all these fancy entities that have to be taken care of by the golf course maintenance people. So consequently, you're going to have a high maintenance fee on these types of golf courses. And if you don't believe it, go and look at some of them, Worthington. Go up to the new Stonebridge. Go over to Pelican Bay. Go to the Audubon. Those people are not going to let you have just a plain golf course. They've got to have little rose gardens. They've got to have little settees where you can sit down and rest if you'd like to. We're not going into that type of thing. We're not going into that type of thing at all. And I will be amazed that if our maintenance even runs close to what -- what they project it to be, because we plan on keeping a tight dollar on this thing. We plan on watching it every day. We're not going to let some clown go out there and do a lot of work on -- on property that don't even have anything to do with the golf course. Now, that's from the maintenance standpoint. Now, the thing at Fort Myers -- I've been playing golf for some 40 years. I've played golf when you could play for 75 cents a round back in Washington D. C. on Hains Point (phonetic). Today -- I called the other day and asked for a starting time. Today greens fee is $17, and you've got to get there two hours before to get a starting time. They do not take starting times on the phone, and you're lucky if you get off in two hours. So you'll spend eight hours on the golf course, and you'll still pay a $17.50 green fee. Now, this golf course is run by the federal government. Now, you take your Lee County -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: See, that's what's wrong with it. MR. BREEDEN: You take your Lee County golf courses. Now, I'm familiar with this because I've been into this every day for the last 17 years. Lee County did a million eight hundred thousand dollars worth of business last year. Ten percent of that went to Richie Lamb (phonetic) who controls both golf courses. All the excess money that they had up till this year went into the maintenance of the Edison Home and the Naples Yacht Basin. He had $180,000. He paid three employees out of that, a starter and two boys that worked in the pro shop. This I know. This comes right from Richie Lamb to myself. Back in 1968 I was one of the people that built the Hibiscus Golf Course down there that the property was given to us by the Vanderlely Corporation. We borrowed $225,000 from the Small Business Administration. We borrowed an additional $125,000 from Hamie Tooke at the Bank of Naples back in those days, back in '68, which is quite a few years ago. We paid all that money back. We never had a membership there. It was a public golf course, and we never operated at a loss. This is the most -- this is the best thing that could happen to the people of Collier County for the last 20 years. We spent -- Collier County spent 8 million dollars for parks, property. You will never get one dime back out of that. You'll get a bunch of people out there clammering for more boat ramps or more recreation areas. It's going to cost you more money. This golf course is going to return you money and will for the next 20, 30, 40 years. And in the near future you're going to not only need this golf course, you're going to need another golf course. If you'll read the feasibility studies, there you'll find out why you're going to need it. You got people that cannot play golf today that work here and live here and pay taxes here because of the high fee structure in the wintertime. Go to Marriott on 951 in the wintertime, $85. Go to the Beach Club in the City of Naples, another $85 if you want to play again. Oh, they'll let you play 9 holes before eight o'clock for $40. Very few golf courses today will let you walk, very few, because you slow up play. You hold up the rounds. I do know that at Eastwood -- I'm a personal friend of Richie Lamb. He's run that thing for the last years. He said he wouldn't take a job at another golf course for love nor money because he has such a sweet deal at Eastwood. Fourteen hundred members, when is the general public going to play there? My answer to you is to please approve this golf course. It's not going to cost you anything. It's not going to cost the taxpayers anything. It's going to -- it's going to give you revenue back. You can own this thing eventually, and then think of all the money that you're going to have coming into the coffers for future parks and recreation problems. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Breeden, I'm going to have to ask you to wrap it up. Your time has expired. MR. BREEDEN: Pardon me? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Your time is expired. Can you wrap it up? MR. BREEDEN: Suits me. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you. MR. BREEDEN: After 20 years my time's expired for five minutes? Okay. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Dorrill. MR. DORRILL: I didn't know whether the other gentleman who arrived a little later, the architect, whether he's part of the presentation or not. Mr. Glass? MR. GLASS: I think we've had enough. MR. BREEDEN: Yeah, we've had enough. MR. DORRILL: Mr. Sommer. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Constantine. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Just a couple of thoughts while Mr. Sommer is coming up. I think there is obviously an undersupply. Particularly in season there is an undersupply of golf available. There is a need in that -- that's one of the appealing things about this is that it does feel -- as far as feeling a need here in the county, it's right. One of the nice things, it opens the golf game to some of those who can not -- could not otherwise play. In season if you go to Flamingo, I think it's 105 bucks. If you go -- seventy, eighty, a hundred dollars a round of golf. I don't play nearly good enough golf to warrant spending that kind of money but -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I don't play good enough golf at all to spend that kind of money. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Is that per person? I mean, I've never held a golf club. I'm just amazed. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Per person. I think this is good because it can open it up to some of those who would not otherwise play. It will open it up to kids and so on. And I've spoken with Mr. Breeden and Mr. Glass extensively about this and support the concept. My -- my concern, like Commissioner Norris, is I don't want to see the taxpayers end up holding the bag on it, caddying on this one. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I got it. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: The one thing we want to make sure, obviously whatever goes on here needs to be based on good numbers. If there's a comparison and a quick look at the other public courses locally and they don't match, that raises a red flag anyway. There are any number -- I mentioned Sand Ridge in Veto Beach, which is run very well and has been for a long time. There are any number of public courses that we could probably compare to and do some in-depth study and see the similarities and what the differences are. I'm not familiar with those in Fort Myers and what the differences may be. I know in Veto Beach it's a no-frills operation. It's a nice course, but they don't have a big fancy clubhouse. They don't have anything attached to it other than a little snack bar. And so I just wanted to share that I -- this is very appealing idea, and I know there are some people put a lot of long-time work in it, but I wonder if perhaps as we go on there are at least three members who are uncomfortable with the county backing the bonds, but perhaps the county can play a role in at least doing some of the homework and helping to do some research, in some way helping make this a reality even if we don't back it up with taxpayer dollars. Sorry, Bob. MR. SOHMER: Okay. For the record my name is Bob Sommer, and I'm representing the Taxpayers' Action Group. Just for openers, I want you to know that TAG loves golf, and TAG loves golfers, and TAG loves the little white ball that the golfers kick around all the time. We even love the little stick that putts the ball when you chase it around the golf course. Make no mistake, TAG is not anti-golf. And we think the general idea, the general proposal -- not the proposal, the general idea is a good one, that we should have a public course somewhere. However, the proposal before you is so iffy that it jeopardizes our tax dollars. TAG feels you should stop any further consideration on this proposal. Mr. Olliff, you said the fees were going to be $177 MR. OLLIFF: No, sir, $20 projected in the summertime and $37 in the season. MR. SOMMER: Well, the proposed authority as -- for the first year they show $1,593,500. There's revenue, and if you divide that by fifty-two -- 52,000 rounds, it comes to $30.65 a round. So for openers, when this thing first begins, it is $30.65 and not anything less. And if you project it over a ten-year period to make this thing really pay, the golf course would have to accommodate 92,116 rounds a year, and we think that is pretty excessive. The problems that we -- we have been looking at -- we only have had a day or so to work on this, so we have not been able to have the benefit of the years of -- of listening to and considering the authority. But the biggest problem we think that you face is where will the dump be located, and it's going to be located -- I mean, the golf course. It's going to be located right next to the county dump. That's going to be a tough sell. Will the taxpayers of Collier County want to tee off in full view of the dump? Your waste management people are working on the odor problem, but nothing has been accomplished as yet. How do you get to the golf course? Well, there's a road bordering the dump you can use, or you'd have to build an access road which means building a bridge to get over the canal. Is that part of the 8 million dollars, or is that an add-on that the county is going to take care of out of the road and -- and building budget -- road and bridge budget? How much will the golf course cost? Your executive summary states 8 million dollars, but it also states, and I quote, there's nothing provided that substantiates this figure. Very iffy. How will it be paid? Well, they would like us to float a bond issue, and we are very nervous about floating a bond issue because if the thing goes belly up, we're going to be responsible for that bond issue. Are the public golf courses money makers? Well, your staff has already checked with Fort Myers, and it's not. They can't -- they're not making a profit. We feel that this whole idea of having a public golf course is a good one, but we think this particular proposal is not, and we ask that you forget about it. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Sommer. Mr. -- Mr. Olliff, how would a 27-hole public golf course support 94,000 rounds of golf? MR. OLLIFF: It wouldn't. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: It wouldn't? MR. OLLIFF: No. I think your annual rounds at some of the Fort Myers courses are high, and they're probably 72,000 rounds a year, and I think that's about as much as you could expect. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So when we get out here in year ten at $2,844,000, we're either looking at 94,000 rounds a year, or we're looking at more holes, or we're looking at increased prices? MR. OLLIFF: I take that back. I was thinking 18 holes. On a 27-hole golf course you can probably do an extra fifteen, twenty thousand rounds a year. Ninety thousand is not out of the question with 27 holes. I think there are some projected rounds that are also included. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Eighty-two thousand? MR. OLLIFF: Eighty-two thousand. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Then at 82,000 rounds, then we are going to have to raise the prices to get two million eight. MR. OLLIFF: I think some of their additional revenue comes from pro shop sales, food and beverage sales. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: It shows right here that they projected an increase in greens and cart fees when they get to 82,000 rounds. It doesn't stay at $37 forever. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Yeah, I see 41. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Ten years from now it would be $41.82, which makes sense. The cost of operation goes up; the cost of personnel goes up; the cost of rounds go up, CPI. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Forty-one dollars ten years from now is probably worth only thirty-four dollars today. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Actually the cost goes down. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Who is next? Excuse me, Commissioner Norris. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: You know, one of the things that I think we're losing a little bit of apples-to-apples comparison here is that we have made a comparison of this course to some municipal courses, and this is not to be a municipal course, but a privately operated course. There are thousands of privately operated courses around the country that obviously make a profit or they'd close up and shut down. So we need to remember that a municipal course is not driven by the profit motive and -- and some of their incentives to hold costs down and to squeeze -- squeeze prices to make a profit are not there. MR. DORRILL: Mr. Keller. Then we'll have Hiss Barsh. MR. KELLER: George Keller, concerned citizen. I also represent the Golden Gate Estates Association. Here is ads for the last 15 days which is no -- not during the summer, incidentally; we're in the fall. Golf and lunch including cart, $14. Three different courses within easy striking of the area: Hunters Ridge, summer rates now in effect, $20 including green fees, carts, and tax. Summer golf fees, Palm River Country Club before one o'clock, $10; after one o'clock, $15. These people are making so much money, how come they're trying to push -- get people on the golf course? We have a surplus of golf courses in Florida -- in Collier County, more golf courses probably than New York City has or Chicago has or Washington D.C. Has or Los Angeles has. So my point is very simple. If this is -- this is a private organization. I don't know what the authority is. The authority is not quasi-governmental, I imagine. It's a private organization. If this is such a good deal, let them go on and do it. That's fine. But I'm quite sure that if you ever put this up to a vote, that you wouldn't even have 25 percent of the people in Collier County willing to spend 8 million dollars for a golf course when we're having a heck of a time getting the money to go and refurbish our beaches for 6 or 7 million dollars. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Mr. Keller, no one is talking about spending tax dollars on this, nobody. MR. KELLER: What you're doing is securing a note. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: No, no, we're not doing that. MR. KELLER: Well, then, if you're not securing a note, why are we even bothering here? We have nothing to do with it. Let them do their job. If you're not going to be involved in this thing in any way, why is it coming before this county commission? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: We own the land. MR. KELLER: Well, you want to sell the land, all right, fine. If they want to give us a million odd dollars for that land which never, never, never will be odor free -- Waste Management doesn't say it's ever going to be odor free. I went to a recent meeting. They don't claim it's ever going to be odor free. They have a person going around and checking five different locations each day so to try to -- if it becomes too obnoxious they -- they will fill in the top, put dirt over the top of the daily fill instead of using the cover. They never contend it's going to be odor free. No dump is ever odor free. And, secondly, if the only reason why they're interested in this land is because it's county land, and if they can get you to go and guarantee a bond of some kind, they're going to use that money to pay you back. So where is the big deal? This doesn't make any sense at all financially or otherwise. Just remember, when you talk about these -- these fees -- these cheap fees here, the winter season here is not what a normal winter is. It's from about the 15th of November until about the 15th of April. That's when we have the biggest influx of people that got the money that are willing to spend any kind of money to play golf. I played golf for 50 years, and I can tell you right now I never paid $37 to chase the ball around. And that's -- their fee is $37, and it's going to go up. So if this is such a good deal, let them take care of it. Let them do it. We don't want any part of it. There's another thing I'd like to say about authorities. We're getting so many committees and so many authorities; where are we going? What function is government playing here? Is government playing any function, or are we going to be subjected to all these special interests coming before this commission week after week and presenting cases where you have to go through a lot of rigmarole? The staff has to spend endless amount of time. Did anybody ever figure out what it costs the staff to go over these committees' reviews? This government is becoming ridiculous. It's inefficient, and it's ridiculous, and the reason why it is is because the county commission has permitted it to be. Thank you. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Mr. Keller, perhaps you would be so kind as to submit a list of all those committees you think we should cut. MR. KELLER: Well, they've got 38 committees or something or 40 committees, and I don't know where the authorities come in because the authorities are -- are they -- are they officially authorities? Are they quasi-governmental authorities, or are -- and this particular authority, was this appointed by the county commission as a -- being a part of the county? CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: No. That's what they call themselves. MR. KELLER: Well, that don't mean anything, so let's be honest about it. MR. DORRILL: Ms. Barsh and then Mr. Pointer. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: While they're coming up, Mr. Olliff, has the idea that we're discussing today gone in front of the parks and rec advisory board at all? MR. OLLIFF: It was, and I've got the minutes. And unfortunately they didn't take a solid vote on the item. But they heard a presentation, and they recommended that we go ahead and proceed to the county commission, but I don't have a firm vote on them as approved or disapproved. COHHISSIONER HAC'KIE: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Miss Barsh. MS. BARSH: Good morning. I'm Frances Barsh. I'm a voter, resident, and taxpayer of Collier County and a member of TAG. And as Mr. Sommers said, TAG is not against golf, nor are we against golfers. What we are against is the irresponsible use of taxpayers' hard-earned dollars. The executive summary states that there are at present five golf courses in Collier County open to the public. The executive summary further presents the summer and seasonal rates of seven Collier County golf courses. The existing courses represented have summer fees ranging from $15, which is $5 below the $20 base fee presented, to $41 compared to the said $20 summer fee rate of the proposed golf course. There's a differential here of a negative $5 to a positive $21. However, the existing course seasonal rate, the rate utilized by tourists and snowbirds, range from $55 to $119 compared with the seasonal $37 fee rate of the proposed golf course. This differential range is a positive $18 to twenty -- to $82. Thus, it is obvious that the weighting of cost benefit is conspicuously in favor of the tourists and snowbirds and not in favor of the people and taxpayers of Collier County. The National Golf Foundation incorporated a feasibility study, and I refer to page 9 of this agenda item, clearly shows that from year one and all the way through year ten the peak season 18-hole rounds far outnumber the off season 18 rounds. By year one, 19,200; year two, 22,800; year three, 25,800; year four, 28,000; year five, 29,400; and year six, 30,100, and that remains constant through year ten. The NGF study -- and I quote from page 4, paragraph 2 of this agenda item -- says, historical unemployment rates included for Collier County show the seasonality inherent in this tourism-driven economy with unemployment rates increasing to double digits in the summer off-season months. The employment scenario iljustrates that the people of Collier County are busy working in season and have little or no time to play golf. Off-season unemployment allows time but cuts discretionary income and money. So who benefits from the best rates? The tourists and the snowbirds. There are other questions. Who will pay for the access and egress roads for this proposed golf course? How much will it cost? Who will pay for the parking lots? How much will this cost? Who will pay for sewage and drainage? How much will this cost? Who will pay for electric lines? How much will this cost? These are basic items. They cost millions of dollars. Who will be responsible for them? The county? The taxpayer? Or this private authority? The two Fort Myers golf courses lost in combination $130,000 in operations last year. When the 576,000 in bond debt is added to this, the operation loss -- loss comes to a total of $706,000. Cape Coral's course is also losing money. The cost projections of this proposed golf course do not include the four hundred to eight hundred thousand dollar debt service in any serious way. If the county becomes involved in any way with this project, the cost to Collier County and its people and taxpayers will be in the multi millions of dollars and what true benefit to these people. If this proposed golf course is so viable and so -- and of such great market demand, the private sector will readily embrace it. Shares in a private company of the proposed golf course should sell like hotcakes. You are the elected representatives of the people. You are the trustees of our hard earned tax dollars, and you must always bear in mind that money, all government money, comes out of the taxpayers' pockets. Government has no money. I'll finish in a second. This project is not needed. The people in the target market area are now isolated and devastated by flooded land, roads, and homes. This is a no-priority project. It is frivolous, and we ask that you totally dismiss it and ask the authority to pursue the private sector and stay in the private sector. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you. Is that our final speaker, Mr. Dotrill? MR. DORRILL: Mr. Pointer. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I'm sorry. MR. POINTER: Good morning, Commissioners. My name is Jack Pointer. I'm here representing myself. In the Collier County area we have somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 golf courses. Most of the golf courses, of course, are belonging to members, and they are not available to the general public. We are always concerned with providing recreation for our people. We've done a marvelous job of keeping beaches, and we're continuing to keep beaches, not only for our people, but for those people that come down here. We have built parks for our young people and for our young adults so that they have recreation in the hours that they're not working. We've bought -- we've built swimming pools for our young people to keep them going, and now we have a market in the golfing area for the young adults and some of the older adults and even some of the teenagers who need the opportunity to have a golf course that is available to them at all times. I urge you to accept the proposal of the Collier County Golf Authority and then let them build the course and let them use their funds and provide to you a source of income as well as a source of recreation for all the people in Collier County. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Pointer. That was our final speaker? Commissioner Hancock, do you have a question or comment? COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: A quick comment before I have a question. I keep hearing about taxpayer dollars. There's been at least four of the five people up here that have made it very clear, there's going to be no pledging of taxpayer dollars to back anything in this project, period. Mr. Keller, that's enough. There is no pledging of taxpayer dollars from this commissioner on this project, period. Mr. Weigel, my concern is if this project would prove to be feasible and moves ahead, obviously the cost of the land is a part of a bond that -- that the organization would have to get. Does the county have right of first payment when that -- if that bond issue sells? In other words, there is a cost of the land that the county has already gone through the acquisition of. The question is, are we at the top of the list so that we get paid back first if the bond is issued so that there is, in fact, no risk of losing the dollars that have been spent there, or are we somewhere else down the line that we do have a certain open risk on the land cost alone? MR. WEIGEL: Fair question. I don't know if I can give you a full answer right here, but it would appear, you know, it could be structured to protect the county interest would be my -- my response at this point. And I think that with further investigation with our bond counsel that that could be confirmed. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Weigel, this land, this 340-plus acres, was purchased by the solid waste district for Collier County of which we are the trustee, so to speak, for that as well. If we were to declare that land excess inventory and either lease it or sell it to anyone for any purpose, don't we have to advertise that and put it to bid so that we get the best price that we can for the best use that we dictate for that land? MR. WEIGEL: That's correct. There's a statutory provision, 125.35 of the Florida Statutes, which -- and 125.37, which provides that real property owned by political subdivisions, such as the county, must be advertised for lease if it is to be leased. Again, we may have a couple wrinkles here to contend with in a positive sense, in a sense that this property may not be actually declared surplus, but it may be used for a county purpose, i.e., recreation purpose, and remain in the ownership of the county but under the stewardship of someone else. In any event, it would probably be appropriate for an advertised -- an advertisement for a lease to be prepared within the framework of the kind of leasing that would be entertained, meaning for golf course purposes, and the -- the golf course authority before you today and any other entity or individuals would have the opportunity to respond to that advertised lease. The same would go for any request for proposals that might be considered by this board. And I would recommend to the board for the record right now that rather than go forward with the denomination of sole source, that any request proposals could be made and tailored with the specificity of the -- for the use of the property that the board so desires and that this golf course authority, as well as any other entity or individual that wishes to respond, could do so, and the board could review those responses. There may only be one response, but we would have met all legal obligations and avoid any potential with regard to our involvement with the financing later on that we had missed a step. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Hancock. COMHISSIONER HANCOCK: Follow up that question. It was my understanding, and maybe I'm mistaken, but the county can't per se go out and acquire land at -- you know, pay fair market value for it and then turn around and sell it for a profit. Is that -- I mean, we have to sell it for what our costs were to acquire it. We're not able to, in essence, try and sell it for a profit. Is that true, Mr. Weigel? MR. WEIGEL: Well, the way it works is that -- we're sort of in the auction -- auction or public sale process where we go out for bids and receive bids on property that's declared a surplus. So it's what the marketplace will pay at a particular point in time. We do not just list it through a realtor type of arrangement for a prefixed price ahead of time. However, when the responses come in to the advertised sale of real property, the board always retains the ability to approve or not approve the sale of that property. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So it -- it would -- I think what I'm hearing you say is that the golf authority is like any other private industry that came to us today and said we have this great idea, and -- but it's the board's responsibility to not just say, okay, we like your idea, go do it. But it's our responsibility to put together some sort of a RFP, RFB. I don't know what you want to call it, but see if there are others out there willing to compete with this group for the same -- same idea, at least. MR. WEIGEL: That's correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. Suggestions from the board? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, I suggest that -- that we move forward on the basis that this -- if -- if we are to move forward, that the arrangement be structured in such a way that it -- that there is no potential for any of the financial liability to fall to Collier County and Collier County taxpayers. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Can I -- can I just get a clarification, Commissioner Norris? Would that mean that what we would be doing is selling the property to the golf authority and allowing them to utilize our bonding authority without pledging -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: No. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I don't understand then. Help me with the motion. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: The -- well, it's a recommendation, I believe, at this point. Based on what Mr. Weigel has said, it seems to me that what I'm hearing Mr. Norris say, and he can help me if I'm wrong, is that the board continue to entertain the idea and follow whatever legal channels are required. If we need to put out a request for proposals for other golf entities to respond to, it may be that the golf authority is the only one who does respond. We don't know that right now. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, Miss Chairman, if I might, I'm just trying to make a motion that is broad enough to give the staff the latitude to work with the authority, but under the -- under the definite restriction that if there is a -- a deal, an arrangement that goes forward out of discussions, it certainly has to include the proviso that at no time and under no circumstances will the liability, financial liability, fall to the county taxpayers. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So you're -- you're suggesting that we just say up front that the county is not going to put its full faith and credit behind this bond issue; is that what you're saying? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, that's part of it. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That's part of it. What's the rest of it? COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: What would staff be doing? What are the parameters? I'm -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well -- COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Can I make a suggestion, Commissioner Norris? Can I take a step? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Do you have your hand puppets? COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I think we should explore -- maybe this is what you're saying. Maybe it's not. I think we should explore the use of that particular property for a public golf course of some sort, that we should offer that out, as you said, RFP, RFB, whatever the appropriate form is, but that we should not encumber any county funds, nor should we put up even a risk of county funds through the bonding issue. Are we somewhere along the same lines? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Isn't that what I said? COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I thought -- COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: If I may, in the staff report I saw two options on bonding. One was full faith and credit. I think we've told them, not going to happen. Another bonding option was that the bond be structured so that the golf course and the Collier County Golf Authority would be the only party responsible for debt service payments. Are you suggesting that we do that or that we consider that option or close that door? COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Well, the reason I structured my -- my motion a little bit open-ended is there may be more options than that. I don't know. But if the Collier County Golf Authority is -- is willing to go forward under the condition that -- that the county is not going to help financially, fine. Let them come forward with any proposal they would like, restructure a new one if they'd like, and let's take a look at it and go forward from there. I'm just trying to give everybody as much latitude as possible to come up with an arrangement that's suitable to all parties. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Constantine. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: As I said earlier, I think there is a need. Particularly in season there is a need for more affordable -- I disagree with Hiss Barsh that when costs are lower in season that only benefits the snowbirds. The problem right now isn't summertime. I can afford to go play golf in the summertime. I can get a little cancer card or any one of those cards and go play for $15 or $20 a round. The problem is for many of the year-round residents come -- I'm not looking for a response. For many of the year-round residents come wintertime, that fifteen or twenty dollars becomes sixty or seventy or eighty dollars which you can't do with any regularity. So I think there is a very apparent need, particularly in season. And I think if we can turn around and help through a site, have a logical site, and as Commissioner Hancock said, get the money back into the landfill coffers that was expended on that, then obviously, again, no taxpayer money or no waste-payer money is expended there. But if we can help make this a reality simply by having some real estate, we think a public golf course is the best use of that property and put it out for RFP, and the golf authority may be the only ones to come back. But, again, do that at no risk to the taxpayer. I don't really see a downside to that. We have -- a great recreational opportunity comes forth for the public. We have a effective -- cost effective golf opportunities for kids and for people that can't afford it in the wintertime (raised hand) and no expense to the taxpayer. I'm not sure what the downside to that is. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Hancock. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: There are two things that I like particularly about moving in this direction as long as, again, the risk to any investment of tax dollars or any future tax dollars is zero. If we can move ahead in that vein, we're not putting those dollars at risk. Then we can look at the overall scenario. And the overall scenario have two things in it that really haven't been mentioned today, but briefly -- and I want to point them out. The first is that we can walk a golf course. It's -- for him, it's his exercise. He walks five days a week on that course. That has to be a part of this, because it has to be recreational in nature. There's nothing recreational, in my opinion, about jumping in a cart and driving around 18 holes. Yeah, you get out and hit the ball every now and then, but the concept here, that a lot of our senior citizens are looking for ways to have recreation and exercise, at the same time can have them in the game of golf provided they can walk. I like that idea. That's always been a part of this. The second thing is that golf scholarships are on the rise all over the U.S. The youth programs that a public course can create to get kids interested in the game at an early age that give them the opportunity to play in high school and go on to college and maybe get scholarships is a big program. And golf is a life sport. It's something that someone can pick up at age ten and play the rest of their entire lives. And those two things are big selling points provided the first thing I mentioned occurs, and that is, again, that the current or future risk of tax dollars is not a part of this program. I don't think anyone up here will support this project if that is an element. With that being said, there's been a restatement of the motion and original motion. I'm going to second whatever is appropriate out there. I believe Commissioner Norris's motion was on the floor. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I think Commissioner Norris's motion is open-ended enough to give our staff whatever exploratory options that -- that they see reasonable, but at the same time he -- he has in the motion shut down the concept that the county is going to put its faith and credit behind this. So -- and I believe that is the motion. Is -- yeah. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Can I hear a clear restatement on it? I'm not sure I recall -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Do it again, John. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Tom wants a restatement, too. MR. OLLIFF: Please. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Do it again, John. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Okay. Let me restate it. I'll make a motion that -- that we go forward with negotiations with the Collier County Golf Authority on this project under the condition that if any arrangement is agreed to in the future, that the primary condition is that no Collier County pledge or use of tax dollars will be involved. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Second. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Question on the motion. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Question, Commissioner Constantine. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I assume pursuant to Mr. Weigel's comments, we'll do as part of that -- if we need to do some sort of -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Whatever. Leave it open-ended so they can do whatever they feel is necessary to do. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: The essence of the motion is let's look at the opportunity -- COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Right. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- of having someone build a public golf course. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: That's right. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Mr. Olliff, you have a question? MR. OLLIFF: Just -- the only question is there are two ways to do this in terms of whether I go out competitively through an RFP or whether I sole source and work with the Collier County Golf Authority. And I'm not sure whether you want me to go out and prepare an RFP structured around no county involvement sort of bond issue, or do you want me to just come back to you after having worked with the golf authority and say here's what the project would look like under that type of scenario, and then you make a decision of whether or not you want us to go out and bid or go sole source? COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: I like that idea because it presents less work for you on the front end. And let's face it, if the numbers come back and the numbers don't jive, then there's no reason to move ahead. So rather than waste your time on the front end, in essence, open the doors and see what's out there, you know, numbers are numbers, and we're going to have comparisons from courses all over the State of Florida before this is over to determine whether these numbers are realistic or not. With that exercise, which I'm assuming a lot of that will be performed by the authority and not by you, I think we will at least have either a level base of information, or we'll know that this isn't a possibility. MR. OLLIFF: So from your motion what I will bring back to you is, one, what the project would look like under that financing scenario, and I will also do some research into some other comparable types of public golf courses perhaps that aren't municipal but are public golf courses and try to bring back those pieces of information for you to make a decision. COHMISSIONER NORRIS: Exactly. MR. OLLIFF: Okay. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay. We have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? There being none, all in favor, please say aye. Opposed? Motion passes five to zero. MR. OLLIFF: Thank you. Item #10A RESOLUTION 95-601 SUPPORTING PARTIAL YEAR AD VALOREH ASSESSHENTS - ADOPTED CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you, Hr. Olliff. Next item on the agenda, all the way to 10(A), a resolution supporting partial year ad valorem assessments. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Motion to approve. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Second. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: We have a motion and a second to approve the resolution. All those in favor, please say aye. Opposed? Motion passes five to zero. Item #14A NAPLES PARK DRAINAGE ASSESSMENT PETITION DRIVE - DISCUSSED We're at public comment portion of our -- MR. DORRILL: None today. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: There are none today. Communications then. Commissioner Norris? COMMISSIONER NORRIS: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Nothing today. Commissioner Hancock? No, ma'am. Commissioner Mac'Kie? No, ma'am. Commissioner Constantine? COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: One brief item. I think you all are aware, if you've read the paper or answered your phone calls, Naples Park is -- we've got that item coming up next week. That will be our biggest item on the agenda, I suspect. There has been -- a pretty large group has put together a petition drive. My understanding is there's somewhere in excess of 600 names now and still plugging away. They've got seven more days. But just on an -- if you would anyway, keep an open mind. I know we're looking at some different things. The cost may come lower than what Mr. Boldt had anticipated, but I know there are some -- some serious concern there, and they had just asked me to pass that on to the board, that to please keep an open mind. And I have assured everyone that I've spoken to that all of you would do that anyway. I know you always do. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: I for one am going to meet with -- talk with Steve Hart (phonetic) during the week. I think it's important for all of us to realize what the 24th is about. It's not about a final approval of a 4 million dollar system. I think all of us sitting here, if we saw a price tag coming in at 4 million, would just turn the other cheek and be done with it. The question next Tuesday is whether or not we want to allow staff to put it out for bid to find out what the real project cost is or whether we just want to cut it at that point. And that's really all Tuesday is about, whether we want to find out what the real bids are going to be or whether we want to walk away from it, say it's just going to be too expensive regardless. So I'm going to get with Steve and try and clarify some of those things and see if we can get it in the paper so that everyone -- I'm sorry, Steve Hart -- so everyone understands what Tuesday is about and also understands that, yes, all five of us are sensitive to the costs as well we should be. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Very sensitive to it. That the only item you have? COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Only item I have. Item #14B CRIMINAL JUSTICE SEMINAR - DISCUSSED CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I have two short items; one, a reminder of a criminal justice symposium tomorrow evening. I believe it's at The Registry, yes, The Naples Registry Resort, 7 to 9 p.m. We have a number of dignitaries from the state coming to speak with residents of Collier County about criminal justice. Item #14C LELY BAREFOOT BEACH GUARDHOUSE - COUNTY ATTORNEY TO GIVE UPDATE ON NOVEMBER 7, 1995 The other item that I want to bring up -- and it's probably a little bit of a controversial issue -- I had a call again last night from a couple of people, but one from the attorney general's office, Mr. Weigel, wanting to know the question of Lely Barefoot Beach. When is that coming back before us, the guardhouse? MR. WEIGEL: The question on the guard -- well, it's in the courts right now. So it will either be settled with a settlement brought back to you to go to court. If your question is when that will go forward -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: When is the settlement coming to us, or should we begin to take up the option of the code enforcement on the guardhouse? This thing has been sitting now for almost a year. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: The law prohibits us from doing it at code enforcement level concurrently with the court system. MR. WEIGEL: I mean, the court case itself was an injunctive lawsuit to prevent us from doing that. It's just been stayed in the sense of the negotiation and investigation that's been going on along that line. So if we were to go forward from the county administrative end, I would expect that the injunctive element of the lawsuit would be brought to court rather quickly as far as that goes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I was just saying why don't we move forward and -- and get this thing off of the back burner? I mean, we've got an issue that's been going on for a year now. MR. WEIGEL: Sure. Well, with the direction of the board, we would do that. I know that there has been some individual commissioner participation in a sense of investigation as to the lay of the land and -- and now with the recent state entry into the case, it's a little curious that they would raise a question as what we're going to do when they're working with us and entered the case so that they could have a say within the litigation itself as to what will happen. But I can assure you we can proceed immediately. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Let me share with the board what the representative of the attorney general was asking me last night, and that person was asking on information that they had received that a settlement was very near and, in fact, that the board had agreed to a settlement. And I assured him that we had not. MR. WEIGEL: No. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So I mean that's why they're calling. They're getting phone calls in Tallahassee. They're getting information that something is happening when it's not. And I guess if we're that close, then let's make it happen. COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Commissioner Matthews. MR. WEIGEL: Absolutely. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Hancock. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: Madam Chairman, I have received copies of letters from attorneys in Tallahassee that I've never even spoken to talking about some compromise I authored. Let's be very, very clear right now. I have never authored a compromise. What I've done is try and improve public access to Lely Barefoot Beach, which I thought was the issue. As it turns out, public access is now secondary. I'm supposed to get a bulldozer and run over a guard gate. That's what I'm supposed to do. So I approach it from a public access perspective and had some discussions with the homeowners in Lely Barefoot and had some discussions with CABB and Emily Maggio (phonetic) and everyone else and their mother. And what became very obvious is there's no easy solution that improves public access while maintaining the level of security for the folks in Lely Barefoot by their zoning. Now, there is another option out there, but, you know, the idea that -- that someone's out there working on things on a daily basis simply isn't true. You know, I read Commissioner Mac'Kie's comments this morning in the paper with some interest that basically said that I should ignore the county attorney's advice and kind of push this thing. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: said. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: the opportunity -- COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: liked that part. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: of one or two scenarios. Not even close to what I actually Okay. I thought I would give you Thank you, but not even close. You know, because the truth is -- You mean you were misquoted? Ahh. By the Daily News? She did say she liked me. I That part was true, Tim. The truth is here; there's kind There's no question that gatehouse where it sits should not have been approved. I don't think anyone up here refutes that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: No one did approve it. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: It wasn't approved. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: It got a building permit. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: We don't want to debate the issue itself this morning because -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: I just want to know when it's coming, that's all. COMHISSIONER MAC'KIE: Actually I -- I'm not -- I don't want to debate the issue, but I was wanting to say -- what I wanted to say in my turn was if Mr. Weigel said he's looking for board direction about whether or not to proceed with code enforcement action, I want to give you my direction, proceed with code enforcement action. COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: I'd agree with that. MR. WEIGEL: That's fine. I will just respond that it's integrally related to the case itself. And if we go forward, it may cause the case itself to jump forward in one of the two or three modes that it has. One is injunctive relief to prevent us from doing what we attempted to do in the first place with our code enforcement action. But they work together, and we can initiate the administrative side, and it will have the -- like the laws of physics, a reaction into the litigation side. And, of course, we're attempting to work with the state -- the attorney general on all regards to this. We tried to bring them into the case a year ago, and they wouldn't come in. And they came in about a month ago, so it's been difficult from the county standpoint, but we're ready to go forward. I appreciate your direction. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Constantine. COHHISSIONER CONSTANTINE: First of all, I think it benefits everybody to jump this thing forward because we have been seemingly sitting -- MR. WEIGEL: Okay. COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- idle for a long time. I know people have been trying to accomplish different things outside the public forum, and that's not to suggest no one has done anything for the last year, but the result has been that we haven't achieved a whole lot last year. Just so the board is aware, I have spoken with the attorney for the Lely Barefoot Beach homeowners in some detail on a plan that right now they're actually warming up to pretty well. I have yet to speak with CABB and some of the other folks who have been the adversary of Lely Barefoot Beach. I'm planning on doing that this week. If -- if both sides are fairly warm to it, I intend to bring the idea to the board and see if the board's comfortable with it as well within the next couple of weeks. I would not, by any means, ask us to wait, though, if we need to move forward. And somewhere in those proceedings we come up with an answer, great. But I -- I hope we move forward immediately, but just be aware there is something that both sides may be comfortable with, and obviously we'll need to make sure the state attorney's general office is as well. But I think the biggest hurdle is going to be getting the homeowners in there and the -- some of the other folks all on the same page. And I think if we are and both of those groups are, the state attorney general's office will probably be happy to see everybody working together but -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Can I make a suggestion? COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: -- take that a step at a time. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Can I make a suggestion? COHMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: Yes. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: That this is October the 17th. The 24th we have a pretty full agenda. The 31st is a workshop. Would it be reasonable to ask Mr. Weigel to begin to move forward in bringing this issue to closure and on November the 7th give us an updated report on the status of it? COHMISSIONER MAC'KIE: I would love that. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Commissioner Hancock. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: On that workshop on the 31st I '- I've tried to lay out a couple of ideas, but it's very tough to float things -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: No kidding. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: -- because of the way -- to float them and see what people think and see what's out there. And when I -- I drew something, the next thing you know, I'd authored a compromise. I'm not sure how that happened. All I did was draw something. But there are a couple of ideas that I think could be drawn up and shown to the commission, say, at the workshop just to get some -- I mean, ten minutes. We can put a time limit of ten minutes on it, get some feedback, does this make sense, or does this make sense, which one is better type of scenario. I think one of the things that Commissioner Constantine is working on, because it's the only other option I know of, but I'd be happy to do that, if we can put it on the workshop agenda as a strict ten-minute item to put out a couple of things and get comments from the board, that's my only way of kind of floating things and finding out if they have any -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Remembering, though, that at our workshops we do not invite public comment to any significant degree. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Right. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: So while we might be discussing these drawings, we are not particularly going to be inviting 300 people to come and give us their comment on it. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: But the next week when it's on an agenda item, you can be guaranteed they're going to be in the audience COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINE: This would just be an opportunity for us to get a heads up a week in advance. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: Exactly, and for the public to get it because once I put it out at workshop, I'm talking about just two drawings of what may be able to happen there and which is better. COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Maybe just in the staff report for the agenda item. COMMISSIONER HANCOCK: And then if everyone gets ahold of it, because you know on the 7th we're going to discuss it and public comment on it. I would just like everyone to have what I've been thinking of, that's all. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Fine. Then, Mr. Weigel, we'll look for an update on this on the 7th. We're in agreement? COMMISSIONER MAC'KIE: Please. MR. WEIGEL: Yes. And just one final comment is that as I get back and review what we can do administratively and how soon, typically with code enforcement board we have notice and then scheduled hearing due process requirements, and they'll be part of my report, too, on the 7th is that how far we're into that process then. Item #15 STAFF COMMUNICATION - FEMA GRANTS FOR FLOOD VICTIMS DISCUSSED CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Okay, fine. Thank you. Mr. Dotrill, do you have communication items? MR. DORRILL: Only one quick thing. As part of the amendment to the presidential declaration that included Collier County in a press release that we issued yesterday afternoon at 4:30, individuals in Collier County are now eligible for direct grants from FEMA if they have experienced flooding. This is around the SBA process, direct grants. It also includes for individuals or groups of individuals opportunities for what the federal government calls hazard mitigation projects. And I've asked Mr. Pineau to explore with Mr. Archibald whether people who live on Acremaker Road as an association could apply for direct FEMA grants and aid for work and assistance in that regard. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Interesting that you're saying that. I've asked Mr. Pineau and Mr. Archibald to meet with me immediately following this meeting to -- to explore exactly that, of what we can ask the people who live along the private roads to do if they need to form associations to get the grants. MR. DORRILL: Governments are not eligible under the modified disaster declaration, only individuals who have incurred uninsured loss, but we are exploring that. COHMISSIONER HANCOCK: How about a drainage system? Would that qualify? MR. DORRILL: We're going to explore -- CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Thank you. Mr. -- Mr. Weigel, do you have anything for communication? MR. WEIGEL: No, thank you. CHAIRPERSON MATTHEWS: Hiss Filson? We're finished. We're adjourned. Thank you. ***** Commissioner Norris moved, seconded by Commissioner Constantine and carried unanimously, that the following items under the Consent Agenda be approved and/or adopted: ***** Item #16A1 SATISFACTION OF LIEN FOR RESOLUTION 91-55 FOR A PUBLIC NUISANCE FOR LOT 34, BLOCK 197, MARCO BEACH UNIT SEVEN OWNED BY HOWARD JOHN SCHULTE See Pages Item #16A2 SATISFACTION OF LIEN FOR RESOLUTION 94-95 FOR A PUBLIC NUISANCE FOR TRACT 1 OF WHITEHURST'S REPLAT OWNED BY HERBERT POHLHANN See Pages Item #16A3 SATISFACTION OF LIEN FOR RESOLUTION 94-245 FOR A PUBLIC NUISANCE FOR LOT 10, BLOCK 189, GOLDEN GATE UNIT SIX OWNED BY ELLIOT & NAN SIEGEL See Pages Item #16A4 SATISFACTION OF LIEN FOR RESOLUTION 94-544 FOR A PUBLIC NUISANCE FOR LOT 26, BLOCK A, PINE VIEW VILLAS OWNED BY ALEJANDRO & CARIDAD PENA See Pages Item #16A5 SATISFACTION OF LIEN FOR RESOLUTION 94-316 FOR A PUBLIC NUISANCE FOR LOT 5, BLOCK J, POINCIANA VILLAGE, UNIT 1, OWNED BY JAMES & JENNIFER HCGUIRE See Pages Item #16A6 SATISFACTION OF LIEN FOR RESOLUTION 94-538 FOR A PUBLIC NUISANCE FOR LOT 3, BLOCK 183, MARCO BEACH UNIT SEVEN OWNED BY ADOLFO & MARLENE FERRO See Pages Item #16A7 SATISFACTION OF LIEN FOR RESOLUTION 94-477 FOR A PUBLIC NUISANCE FOR LOT 15, BLOCK C OF NAPLES VILLAS OWNED BY ERHARD & JOANN STRIETZEL See Pages Item #16A8 SATISFACTION OF LIEN FOR RESOLUTION 92-492 FOR A PUBLIC NUISANCE FOR LOT 117, PALMETTO DUNES GARDENS, LELY COUNTRY CLUB, OWNED BY TERRY & KAREN WALSH See Pages Item #16A9 SATISFACTION OF LIEN FOR RESOLUTION 91-59 FOR A PUBLIC NUISANCE FOR LOT 9. BLOCK 8, NAPLES MANNORANNEX OWNED BY JEAN & MARKENSIE PAUL See Pages Item #16A10 SATISFACTION OF LIEN FOR RESOLUTION 94-310 FOR A PUBLIC NUISANCE FOR LOT 10, BLOCK 173, MARCO BEACH UNIT SEVEN OWNED BY HARRY J. FRIEDMAN See Pages Item #16All - Continued to 11/7/95 Item #16A12 RESOLUTION 95-590 AUTHORIZING A 50e WAIVER/50e DEFERRAL OF ROAD, LIBRARY SYSTEM, PARKS & RECREATIONAL FACILITITIES, EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES SYSTEM, AND EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES SYSTEM IMPACT FEES FOR A THREE BEDROOM HOUSE TO BE BUILT BY RICHARD AND PEGGY SUE EAGLER IN GOLDEN GATE ESTATES ON 8TH AVENUE N.E. See Pages Item #16A13 RESOLUTION 95-591 AUTHORIZING A 100e WAIVER OF ROAD, LIBRARY SYSTEH, PARKS & RECREATIONAL FACILITITIES, EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES SYSTEM, AND EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES SYSTEM IMPACT FEES FOR A THREE BEDROOM HOUSE TO BE BUILT BY CLIFFORD W. CONNOLLY IN GOLDEN GATE ESTATES ON 8TH AVENUE S.E. See Pages Item #16A14 RECORDING OF THE FINAL PLAT OF LEXINGTON AT LONE OAK, UNIT TWO - WITH STIPULATIONS AND CONSTRUCTION & MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT AND CASH BOND See Pages Item #16A15A RESOLUTION 95-592 ASSESSING A LIEN TO RECOVER PUBLIC FUNDS EXPENDED ON CASE NO 50424-057 TO EFFECT THE ABATEMENT OF A PUBLIC NUISANCE ON PROPERTY DESCRIBED AS LOT 28, BLOCK B, GOODLAND ISLES, OWNED BY JOHN ROY YOUNG Item #16A15B See Pages RESOLUTION 95-593 ASSESSING A LIEN TO RECOVER PUBLIC FUNDS EXPENDED ON CASE NO 50523-009 TO EFFECT THE ABATEMENT OF A PUBLIC NUISANCE ON PROPERTY DESCRIBED AS LOT 10, BLOCK 284 OF MARCO BEACH UNIT EIGHT OWNED BY BARBARA K. HAMORY Item #16A15C See Pages RESOLUTION 95-594 ASSESSING A LIEN TO RECOVER PUBLIC FUNDS EXPENDED ON CASE NO 50523-088 TO EFFECT THE ABATEMENT OF A PUBLIC NUISANCE ON PROPERTY DESCRIBED AS LOT 10, BLOCK 10, NAPLES MANOR ANNEX OWNED BY LOUIS & LORETTA CAMBRUZZI Item #16A15D See Pages RESOLUTION 95-595 ASSESSING A LIEN TO RECOVER PUBLIC FUNDS EXPENDED ON CASE NO 50608-091 TO EFFECT THE ABATEMENT OF A PUBLIC NUISANCE ON PROPERTY DESCRIBED AS LOT 26, BLOCK 167 OF MARCO BEACH UNIT FIVE, OWNED BY PATRICK AND MARTINE VIGUIE Item #16A15E See Pages RESOLUTION 95-596 ASSESSING A LIEN TO RECOVER PUBLIC FUNDS EXPENDED ON CASE NO 50608-124 TO EFFECT THE ABATEMENT OF A PUBLIC NUISANCE ON PROPERTY DESCRIBED AS LOT 4, BLOCK 406, MARCO BEACH UNIT 13, OWNED BY EMILIO ROLAND STILLO Item #16A15F See Pages RESOLUTION 95-597 ASSESSING A LIEN TO RECOVER PUBLIC FUNDS EXPENDED ON CASE NO 50609-031 TO EFFECT THE ABATEMENT OF A PUBLIC NUISANCE ON PROPERTY DESCRIBED AS LOT 13, BLOCK 90, MARCO BEACH UNIT THREE, OWNED BY BEVERLY STEIGERWALD Item #16A15G See Pages RESOLUTION 95-598 ASSESSING A LIEN TO RECOVER PUBLIC FUNDS EXPENDED ON CASE NO 50612-040 TO EFFECT THE ABATEMENT OF A PUBLIC NUISANCE ON PROPERTY DESCRIBED AS LOT 20 AND 21, BLOCK A, VANDERBILT BEACH CENTER, OWNED BY EDWARD ROLQUIN See Pages Item #16A15H RESOLUTION 95-599 ASSESSING A LIEN TO RECOVER PUBLIC FUNDS EXPENDED ON CASE NO. 50612-052 TO EFFECT THE ABATEMENT OF A PUBLIC NUISANCE ON PROPERTY DESCRIBED AS LOT 13, BLOCK 294, MARCO BEACH UNIT EIGHT, OWNED BY NIVARDO MARTINEZ & ELBA MARTINEZ See Pages Item #16A15I RESOLUTION 95-600 ASSESSING A LIEN TO RECOVER PUBLIC FUNDS EXPENDED ON CASE NO. 41117-019 TO EFFECT THE ABATEMENT OF A PUBLIC NUISANCE ON PROPERTY DESCRIBED AS LOT 3, BLOCK 329, GOLDEN GATE, UNIT 7, OWNED BY DERILIEN & ROSEHIE DORESTIN See Pages Item #16A16 EXCAVATION PERMIT NO. 59.522 QUAIL WEST PHASE III GOLF COURSE - WITH STIPULATIONS Item #16A17 AUTHORIZATION TO ADVERTISE FOR A PUBLIC HEARING TO CONSIDER ADOPTION OF A PROPOSED NEW PUBLIC VHICLE FOR HIRE ORDINANCE Item #16B1 COOPERATIVE AGREEMENT BETWEEN FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AND THE BCC FOR WATER SERVICE TO A PARCEL OF LAND IN THE GOODLAND AREA See Pages Item #1682 BID #95-2326 FOR THE MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR OF HALON FIRE SUPPRESSION SYSTEMS IN THE WASTEWATER MASTER PUMP STATIONS - REJECTED Item #1683 BID #95-2421 AWARDED FOR ON-CALL ELECTRICAL REPAIRS TO VARIOUS VENDORS Item #1684 REALLOCATION OF FUNDS FOR THE WATER AND SEWER CAPITAL PORTIONS OF THE C.R. 951 ROAD WIDENING PROJECT Item #1685 BID #95-2416 FOR UNDERGROUND UTILITIES SUPPLIES - AWARDED TO VARIOUS VENDORS Item #1686 ACCEPTANCE FOR EASEMENTS ALONG VANDERBILT BEACH ROAD FOR THE PURPOSE OF SIDEWALK RELCATION AND LANDSCAPING Item #1687 APPROVAL OF PAYMENT FOR FIELD PURCHASE ORDER NUMBER 455977 FOR BUSINESS RECYCLING AWARDS PLAQUES Item #1688 FORMAL BID PROCESS WAIVED; RECYCLING SECTION'S ADVERTISING CAMPAIGN FOR FY 1995/96 ON VARIOUS RADIO, TELEVISION AND LOCAL NEWSPAPERS - APPROVED Item #16D1 SATISFACTION OF CLAIM OF LIENS FOR DEBORAH C. MANN AND EDWARD L. ANGELL, AND ROGER AND JUDITH HCCANDLESS See Pages Item #16D2 CANCELLATION OF NOTICE OF PROMISE TO PAY AND AGREEMENT TO EXTEND PAYMENT OF SEWER IMPACT FEES FOR ROBERT AND MARGARET DILBONE See Pages Item #16D3 SATISFACTION OF NOTICE OF PROMISE TO PAY AND AGREEMENT TO EXTEND PAYMENT OF SEWER IMPACT FEES FOR JOHN F. BAILIE AND WILLIAM C. ENGEL, WILLIAM AND JANE SHEEHAN, AND T.A.F.S. PARTNERSHIP See Pages Item #16D4 BUDGET AMENDMENTS RECOGNIZING CARRY FORWARD REVENUE FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY SYSTEM MODERNIZATION PROJECT #80180 Item #16El BUDGET AMENDMENTS 95-583, 96-02 AND 96-19 Item #16G MISCELLANEOUS CORRESPONDENCE - FILED AND/OR REFERRED There being no objections, the following miscellaneous correspondence was filed and/or referred to the various departments as indicated: Item #16H1 ADDITIONAL BOND PAYHENTS IN EXCESS OF THE CURRENT DEBT SERVICE AMOUNTS FOR THE SERIES 1988 MARCO SEWER BONDS Item #16H2 TRANSFER OF TANGIBLE PERSONAL PROPERTY PURCHASED BY FUND 301 DURING FY 9/30/94 FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE SHERIFF TO THE SHERIFF'S CUSTODY There being no further business for the Good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by Order of the Chair at 11 a.m. BOARD OF COUNTY COHMISSIONERS BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS CONTROL BETTYE J. MATTHEWS, CHAIRPERSON ATTEST: DWIGHT E. BROCK, CLERK These minutes approved by the Board on presented or as corrected as TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF DONOVAN COURT REPORTING BY: Barbara A. Donovan