CLB Minutes 10/15/2008 R
October 15, 2008
TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE
CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
OF COLLIER COUNTY
Naples, Florida October 15, 2008
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractor Licensing
Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business
herein, met on this date at 10:30 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION at
Collier County Development Services Center, 2800 North Horseshoe
Drive, Room 609-619, Naples, Florida, with the following members
present:
CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson
Richard Joslin
Eric Guite'
Lee Horn
Terry J erulle
Thomas Lykos
Michael Boyd
Glenn Herriman
ALSO PRESENT:
Patrick Neale, Attorney for the Board
Robert Zachary, Assistant County Attorney
Michael Ossorio, Contractor Licensing Supervisor
Page 1
AGENDA
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
DATE: WEDNESDAY - OCTOBER 15, 2008
TIME: 10:30 A.M.
COLLIER COUNTY DEVELOPMENT SERVICES CENTER
2800 N. HORSESHOE DRIVE, ROOM 609 - 610
NAPLES, FL 34104
ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE
PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM
RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND
EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED.
I. ROLL CALL
II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS:
III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
DATE: SEPTEMBER 17, 2008
V. DISCUSSION:
David L. Taber Jr., In Balance, Inc. - Discussion of Credit Issues
Year End Report FY 08
VI. NEW BUSINESS:
Chris Weston - Contesting Citation
Ben Johnson - Contesting Citation
Gordon Jenkins - Qualify Second Entity
James L. De Marco - Qualify Second Entity
VII. OLD BUSINESS:
VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS:
IX. REPORTS:
X. NEXT MEETING DATE:
WEDNESDAY NOVEMBER 19, 2008
COLLIER COUNTY DEVELOPMENT SERVICES CENTER
2800 N. HORSESHOE DRIVE, ROOM 609 - 610
NAPLES, FL 34104
CONTRACTORS LICENSING MONTHLY REPORT
SEPTEMBER 2008
COMPETENCY CARDS:
CURRENT
YEAR TO DATE
New: 23 $2,995 354 $45,674
Renew: 1,971 $163,230 3,208 $258,527.0
Reinstate: 7 $890 159 $21,867
Change of Status: 9 $90 99 $1,100
Number of Comp Cards 2010 $167,205 3820 $327,168.00
Late Fees $240 $11,333.20
Sub-Total $167,445 $338,501.20
TEST APPLICATIONS:
Administrative Fee 38 $3,800 $54,000
OTHER:
State Contractors Registered 1161 $11,700 2940 $31,850
Contractor License Board Finel 3 $4,585 $10,085.00
Contractor License Citations 42 $12,450 $132,200
Pictures Taken 5 $10 217 $588.00
Reports, Copies, Misc.,etc. 339 $903 $7,818.55
GRAND TOTAL: $200,893 $575,042.75
Contacts Citations
Allen K. 204 17
Ian J. 187 25
Rob Ganguli 192 17
INVESTIGATIVE RESULTS: CURRENT YEAR TO DATE
Contacts Made: 583 7592
Citations Given: 59 583
Report Prepared By: Jennifer Blanco
October 15, 2008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is everybody ready? Are you ready in
back?
I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County
Licensing Board meeting for October 15th, 2008.
I'd like to start with roll call over here to my right, Mr. Jerulle.
MR. JERULLE: Terry Jerulle.
MR. HERRIMAN: Glenn Herriman.
MR. L YKOS: Thomas Lykos.
MR. GUITE': Eric Guite'
MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson.
MR. HORN: Lee Horn.
MR. BOYD: Michael Boyd.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning to all of you. So we're
100 percent, except for the one empty seat that we're still trying to fill.
Unless we can get Ann Keller to come back.
Next is additions or deletions to the agenda.
Good morning, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: Good morning. Ian Jackson, License
Compliance Officer, for the record.
The staff has two additions. Under new business, the first of
which is Mr. Steven Speak for review of credit report.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Say the last name again?
MR. JACKSON: Speak. S-P-E-A-K.
Second of which is a Mr. Snyder for review of credit report.
That's all the additions or deletions for staff.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody have anything else?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hear a motion to approve as
amended?
MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin.
MR. L YKOS: Second, Lykos.
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October 15, 2008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. L YKOS: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Minutes, last meeting. Have you had a
chance to review them?
I need a motion to approve them, if they're okay.
MR. L YKOS: So moved, Lykos.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second?
MR. JOSLIN: Second.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All in favor?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. L YKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, so we are done.
Discussion. While I've got you up, Mr. Ossorio, I just wanted to
go on the record of handing this to you.
MR. OSSORIO: Is this my walking papers?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, it's not. Some air conditioning
contractor went to a lot of time to send me a three-page letter, and has
some complaint about the way the department is handling them. And I
read the first three lines; put it back in the envelope. I will not deal
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October 15, 2008
with it. So it's yours.
Whoever did that, they were out of line. We only hear cases that
are presented by the county through the ordinances developed by this
county. And for us to get involved in a case outside of this hearing is
in violation of the Sunshine Law.
So whoever takes next chairmanship, be aware of that. Anything
coming to your house we don't read or deal with. Okay?
First up, discussion, David Taber, Jr. Are you present?
MR. TABER: I am.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would come up here to this first
podium, Mr. Taber. I need you to state your name and I'll have you
sworn In.
MR. TABER: My name is David Taber from In Balance, Inc.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I probably don't need you sworn in,
but just in case.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, before we get started, for the
record, Michael Ossorio, Contractor Licensing.
Mr. Taber, he is the president of In Balance, Incorporated. And
what his company is, is basically a facilitator to help do processing for
registering with the state.
And they also are knee-deep in credit reports. And you've
probably seen a lot of his credit reports in the last several months.
And I thought it would be good that I bring Mr. Taber in to talk
to you about how the credit report works. And I know the licensing
board has some questions about -- questions about personal credit
versus business credit and why there was not a lot of credit on his
business. And so Mr. Taber gladly wanted to come in and talk to you
about credit issues or about, you know, applying to the state for a state
registration and that nature.
And I thought that next couple of months I think we might have
some more speakers involved with the licensing about licensing board
and how they work in other jurisdictions too as well.
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October 15, 2008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Yeah, I do need him sworn in,
because he's going to talk about Mr. Speak, who you've thrown on the
agenda. That I guess we previously denied?
MR. OSSORIO: No, I believe Mr. Speak was not denied. I
believe he just has some questions pertaining to his credit. I don't
know if Mr. Taber's going to go ahead and add anything to Mr. Speak,
but he might.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, floor is yours, Mr. Taber.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
MR. TABER: The -- we do a significant number of credit
reports for the State of Florida. We're a nationally recognized credit
reporting agency contracting through the Merchants Credit Bureau to
produce Experian credit reports for the purpose of contractor licensing
for the state. And we're also of course producing credit reports for
Collier County and Lee County and other counties around the state for
the purpose of licensing of contractors with those counties.
We produce both personal credit reports and business credit
reports. We've -- the business credit reports are often without much
material.
The most important thing I believe with these credit reports is
our search for public records. The -- it's important to know if there
have been any judgments, any liens, judgments or problems with a
person's credit history. And -- that have caused some sort of a filing.
So those are recorded both on the personal and on the business
credit report.
There are a lot of businesses that have very little credit on their
record. And the reason for that is any new business or even a business
that's been around quite a while that applies for a credit card, a credit
card company, if they pull the credit and they don't see any credit
activity, they won't issue a credit card to the business. They'll issue a
credit card to the person and they'll bill it to the business. But
technically the card has been issued under that person's Social
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October 15, 2008
Security number.
So we find that there's often not much business credit history.
And when there is, there isn't much there. It shows what -- that there
have been a certain number of credit cards issued and the balances
maybe that exist on them, but it doesn't give you the kind of
information that you get on a personal credit report. Unfortunately
that's just the nature of the business credit report. I'm sure you've seen
them. They don't tell you very much. But they do tell you whether
there are any public records, and that's the most important thing.
On the personal credit report, it's much more detailed. You'll see
the names of the organizations that people have borrowed money from
or taken out credit cards with. You see the line of credit that they have
or the maximum amount of money that they can draw on. You see
their monthly payments, you see the last payment they made, the date
they made it. You can see whether they're past due. You can see, of
course what condition the account is in, is it paid, is it open, is it
closed.
And then most importantly, the last column, is it a current
account or not. And I think that's the column that you'll probably want
to focus on more than anything, the last two columns, if you see
problems with any line items on the credit.
Of course there's also the public records search, and you want to
see a zero there. Or if there is a record of a lien or a judgment, you'd
want to see it satisfied.
The state requires that it be satisfied. And we have to provide
proof or we submit applications on behalf of the licensee that all these
judgments have been satisfied or they won't issue a license, or they'll
go before the board and have to explain why it wasn't satisfied. In
which case, you know, I mean, if there's a bankruptcy obviously it's
not going to be satisfied.
So that's kind of what we do. We probably -- we probably do
three or four credit reports every day, sending them somewhere. And,
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October 15, 2008
you know, with the state these credit reports have to be sealed. You
don't require that. Lee County does require that they be sealed. I don't
know if it's a good idea or bad idea.
But one idea that we have that might protect the integrity of the
report is if you have all the reports be faxed to Collier County
Licensing from us. So at least you know where it came from. You
have a fax cover sheet. And we do a lot of that now. I'd say probably, I
don't know, a third of the reports we do or a quarter of the reports we
do are currently being faxed. I think it's a good idea. I don't know that
it's a great idea for us to fax them to the person who authorized us to
pull their credit and then have them handle it and produce it. But --
you know, so it's an idea for you.
We do have everyone sign an authorization authorizing of course
their credit be pulled, which we feel is important and complies with
the Merchants Credit Bureau regulations and compliance.
We do regularly comply with the compliance ordinances from
Merchants Credit Bureau. In fact, they're coming to our office next
week to do an on-site review of our practices and how we're handling
these reports and how we're storing them and so on, which is
important for the integrity of the client.
MR. JOSLIN: I have a question for you.
From time to time we get applicants in here that are coming in to
update their license or renew license or qualify for different entities
and they need to get a credit report on this -- for this to go through.
And on it sometimes we'll have people that have a judgment or lien
that is on their credit report. And they come in and they say to us that,
well, that's been paid.
MR. TABER: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: When it's been paid, how does the credit bureau --
or how does your credit reporting agency determine that it has been
paid, and what proof do we have that it has been?
MR. TABER: Well, they should be able to provide proof to you.
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October 15, 2008
The state licensees have to. So they actually have to produce some
sort of a letter or a form or something that proves they've been
satisfied.
And occasionally someone has satisfied the judgment, but the
credit reporting agency doesn't have it recorded. We went through one
of those recently.
Well, that resulted in a letter campaign and a proof to the credit
bureau that that's been satisfied. And then it takes them about 30 days
from the time they receive the proof to pull it -- to take it off the
credit.
So what's most important to you and to the state is something in
writing that proves that it's been satisfied.
MR. JOSLIN: And is that the responsibility of say the applicant
or is that something that your agency would do?
MR. TABER: It's the responsibility of the applicant. They have
to go get it.
MR. JOSLIN: Have to get it.
MR. TABER: You bet.
MR. JOSLIN: And then provide it to you--
MR. TABER: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: -- so it verifies that it's been paid.
MR. TABER: Absolutely.
MR. JOSLIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? Any other questions?
MR. OSSORIO: I have two questions.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Taber, on FIN numbers, when a business
changes its name but keeps everything, actually the corporation's the
same, just changing the name and the FIN number is exactly the same,
does the credit report track FIN numbers when you deal with
businesses so you'll see the business change, the d/b/a change, but the
FIN number didn't change?
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October 15, 2008
MR. TABER: Yeah, when we pull the report, we pull it by the
EIN number. And we'll see multiple names come up under that
number. And then we click each one of them, and we'll pull the credit
for all the names.
MR. OSSORIO: What does it cost for a credit report?
MR. TABER: We charge $65 for a business report and $30 for
personal. We charge an extra $5.00 if we have to mail it. And that's,
you know, we believe competitive with everybody.
The business reports -- and actually, you know, we're a reseller,
so we're buying them from another organization.
MR. L YKOS: I have a comment for our consideration. And Mr.
Neale, maybe you can help with this. But earlier you said that when a
business entity doesn't have a long credit history that we can get a
credit report where the personal credit report is very lengthy and the
business credit report is very short, maybe only has one or two other
entities on it.
We're supposed to make judgments on credit based on business
credit, not based on personal credit. Well, what you're telling us is that
a lot of creditors will give credit to an individual but not to a business.
It seems like we're making judgments based on business credit
when we really can't get information -- most of the information is on
the personal, not on the business. Yet we're required by our ordinance
to make decisions based on the business and not the credit.
MR. TABER: Absolutely.
MR. L YKOS: So it seems like -- I'm not saying we rewrite the
ordinance, but maybe we can get a little guidance. When we have one
of those situations where there's almost no business credit and a lot of
personal credit, you know, we're driven by the ordinance to only use
the business credit. It just seems like maybe we're not using the right
information to make a decision.
MR. TABER: I would agree. I believe the business report is
important, particularly to search public records and make sure there
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October 15, 2008
hasn't been a problem with the business. But I think that, you know,
perhaps the personal report should be very important in the process.
The State of Florida is actually in the process of considering --
they actually created a regulation that required that the licensee have a
minimum credit score of 660, which was interesting. And then they
didn't enforce it, which was also interesting to us.
We learned with about this in January, and we thought it was
going to really change the landscape of contractor licensing with the
state. But I think maybe the score was too high in light of this
economy and what was happening, so they didn't enforce it. But that is
a regulation that's on the books with the state as we understand it.
So that personal score is very important, to the state anyway.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other comments?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Appreciate you coming in.
We have been critical of some credit reports lately . Yours is not
one of them. There's enough information here for us to make out.
Some people are giving us one-page reports that don't say much of
anything, and we can't deal with that, whether personal or business.
MR. TABER: Why don't I put together a little report for you that
helps you read at least the personal report. And I'll produce that and
provide it to your office. I'll show you the lines and what they all
mean and give us something to --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to have that.
MR. L YKOS: That would be wonderful, thank you.
MR. TABER: I'd be happy to. You bet.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Since you brought the issue up, let me
just let you know and anyone else that's concerned, the credit reports
do not leave this room. We leave them here and county shreds them.
So the information is kept safe.
MR. TABER: Great. Thank you very much.
MR. L YKOS: Thank you, Mr. Taber.
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October 15, 2008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thanks for coming in.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio, year end report, is that
you?
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct.
F or some time I know that the licensing board for many months
and many years have always said, well, what are we doing on a
monthly basis. And then we got away from county staff giving you a
monthly report, because it was kind of redundant.
And I thought this year well, maybe we'll start something -- this
year we'll start something new at the end of the year, which obviously
it's October. September is the end of the year. And I thought we'll just
give you what we've done for the whole 12 months. And this is what
we've done from September to September.
And I'm not going to go into each and every line item, but
obviously I looked through last -- '07's report, and I think we're up
about 30 to 40 percent from last year.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And the one thing this doesn't
have on here is the phone calls you get.
MR. OSSORIO: No, but if you look down on the bottom, it says
contacts made, 7,000, and that is actually job sites, how many job
sites, you know, do we go to.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I heard the figure one time for
phone calls. It was -- it's an astronomical daily number.
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, we do get a lot of phone calls.
That's all I have on that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You guys are definitely staying busy.
Anybody have any questions on the report?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's something you might want to hang
onto. It's good to carry around.
MR. LYKOS: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that it?
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October 15, 2008
Thank you, Michael.
New business. Chris Weston, are you present?
MR. WESTON: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would, sir, come to this
podium, I'll have you state your name, sworn in and we'll hear what
you don't agree with.
MR. WESTON: My name's Chris Weston.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's all yours, Chris.
MR. WESTON: Okay. Well, I'm assuming you guys have read
this letter that I wrote.
As you know, I'm here today to contest a $300 citation that I
received for trimming some pygmy date palms.
These pygmy date palms are ornamental palm trees. They're
small. Now, granted the ones that I was given the ticket for were about
so tall. Most of the pygmy date palms that we trim are quite small.
Now, I was unaware that this was illegal or considered unlawful
by the county. And I have been providing lawn service in Collier
County since 1981.
I was informed that I needed a landscaping license to trim these
trees.
Now, I think that that's pretty strange. Because landscaping by
definition is installation of such plants. What I'm doing is cleaning up
and keeping -- maintaining the properties, which is lawn service. So
therefore, what I'm doing should be legal and lawful for me to
accomplish for my clients.
Imposing such a law not only hurts small businessmen like
myself, but also citizens who hire lawn services by adding the high
price of having to hire a tree or a landscaping contractor to do a simple
job that should be included in regular lawn service at no extra charge.
Basically a lot of these landscaping companies don't do lawn
service. Ones that do are quite large. They don't handle small yards. I
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October 15, 2008
have people who I've been working for since 1982. These people are
on a fixed budget. These citizens are only paying me maybe 100, $120
a month to do their lawn. I'll cut the grass, keep their lawns looking
beautiful and maybe clip a couple little palm fronds for them. They
can't -- these people aren't going to pay extra money to have a tree
company.
Landscaping companies and tree services charge $60 an hour
and up. So this is a big expense for the citizens of Collier County.
So, you know, basically by imposing a law, you're not only
hurting people like me, but you're hurting your citizens as well.
Everybody who I've talked to about this, and everybody -- and I
know a lot of people in Naples, I went to Naples High School. And
everybody I've -- and I know a lot of lawn service guys. Everybody
I've talked to has been really surprised and shocked. You know, it's
always been our understanding that we can do lawn service -- I mean,
we can trim a tree from the ground with a pole saw or with our little
hand clippers, you know, little ornamental palms.
So basically nobody really knew that this was -- that this was
illegal. Everybody I've told has been shocked.
And I was never warned that this kind of trimming would be
considered unlawful by the county.
You know, these pygmy date palms are considered landscaping
plants by my clients. And they expect this of me. So this is very unfair
to impose a law like this.
I was never warned, you know, that I could get in trouble for
this. I know that ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but I think that
a law like this was kind of -- it's -- this isn't something that was made
public knowledge by anybody who I know. Certainly the clients, any
of my clients don't know about it.
I don't compete with tree services, I don't compete with
landscapers, and I don't compete with irrigation companies. What I do
is I provide a valuable service to my clients at a price that they can
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October 15, 2008
afford.
So basically I see that -- you know, I see the need for having
proper licenses to do tree trimming. You know, tree trimming can be
very -- you know, tree trimmers have a really high overhead; their
insurance is quite high and their work is dangerous.
The work that I was doing was not dangerous. I don't see the
need to take a -- to read a book on safety in arboriculture to maybe
trim a palm frond from the ground with a pole saw or with little hand
clippers.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I'm with you.
First of all, thanks -- I've never been called prestigious board
member before, thank you.
MR. WESTON: Yes, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: He was talking to me.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, was he? I thought it was me.
I knew this was going to happen. It's a long story how this thing
came about, and it was with the arborists and a whole bunch of other
things.
Didn't we make some provision for this, Mr. Neale, when we did
this?
MR. NEALE: I thought -- Mr. Zachary and I were just talking
about it, and I thought that there was some discussion, and Michael
may remember better, of if it was minor pruning done while on the
ground that it was sort of exempt from the tree trimming. But I'm
groping to try to remember exactly what it was.
MR. OSSORIO: I'll take it from here.
MR. NEALE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: If you recall, matter of fact, it was in this room
itself, I don't know, six, seven, eight, 10 months ago, whatever, last
year at this time.
We take a stance on tree contacting that if it's incidental the job
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October 15, 2008
you're there doing -- in other words, if the homeowner comes out and
says basically hey, you know what, can you trim that tree for me, I
have no problem with that. They can trim the tree for you.
But they're there -- their primary job focus, they're going to do
one or two trees and they're going to be doing other things on the
project.
And you're absolutely right, we had one here 10 months ago.
This particular case, and I'll get into the case if you want to, is
that Mr. Weston, this is a commercial job site, and that is, if you want
to call it, is a tree, and is required to be trimmed properly.
And it's not one tree. He was contracted separately to trim the
trees. So it's not really incidental to the job he's there to do. He's there
to do lawn maintenance, but he's also there to on a separate contract
verbally -- I suppose you could talk to the investigator who was on the
job site, that he got contracted to trim all these palms. Now, I don't
know how many are there, you can talk to the investigator, but it
wasn't like he was there, you know, trying to provide a service and not
getting paid for it. Unfortunately Mr. Weston got paid to trim trees.
And we have an ordinance against that. It says if you trim trees
you must have a license and you must take the exam. So it's a little bit
different than something incidental when he's there to provide a
service to his homeowner.
MR. WESTON: Excuse me, sir. Quite the contrary. I did not
receive any extra revenues for doing that. These people asked me, will
you please trim these robelini palms. Didn't make an extra dime. It
was part of their service.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, okay, let me go next.
Who wrote the citation?
MR. OSSORIO: Allen Kennette.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Allen, would you come up, state your
name, I'll have you sworn in.
MR. KENNETTE: Yes, Allen Kennette, Contractor Licensing
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October 15, 2008
Field Investigator.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
MR. KENNETTE: This was out at the Gulfshore Boulevard
complex. They were on -- three gentlemen were on ladders trimming
trees with clippers. I stopped to see exactly what they were doing,
because they have a lawn service only.
The foreman was there, he said that the management asked him
to go ahead and trim up the trees on the property and add the cost to
their normal maintenance bill.
I asked if Mr. Weston was there. He said no, he's not. I tried
calling him on his number that we have listed. I had to leave a
message.
When he did finally return my call, he was irate about it. I tried
to explain to him how trimming that many trees, over 24 trees on the
whole property, is over and above what his lawn service can do.
He didn't want to hear that. Wanted to take it as far as he could
and then hung up on me before I had a chance to explain it to him.
The manager there came over before I left and asked me why I
was there, what I was looking at. And I informed him that I was
checking the service that you had to do the tree trimming, and he said
yes, that they had asked the foreman to go ahead and trim those trees
up and add it to the bill.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. WESTON: Add it to the bill part's not true.
And my -- the people who I work for will testify on that behalf.
That was part of their service. We didn't make any extra money
for doing it.
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Kennette, just a question. I take it this is a
commercial account; this is a --
MR. KENNETTE: Yes, it is.
MR. JOSLIN: -- commercial condominium or thereabouts?
MR. KENNETTE: It's a commercial condominium, yes.
Page 16
October 15, 2008
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Weston, how many other commercial
condominiums do you service?
MR. WESTON: How many others? Six.
MR. JOSLIN: Six more?
MR. WESTON: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: So I have a hard time understanding this, but what
you're asking us to do is to kind of turn our backs on you because you
were doing something that's out of the scope of your license.
And who's to say that maybe you were trimming the trees on the
other five condominium complexes the same way you're doing this, as
a favor. And would that be something that would be correct to do, in
taking business from someone that does have a license to do the work
that you're doing for free?
MR. WESTON: Okay. Now again, you know, this seems to me
like it's really a gray area. Because first of all, most of the pygmy date
palms are very small. Is it really fair to ask even a commercial
property to get a separate service to come in and trim little trees with
hand clippers?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, Mr. Weston, that's not for you
to decide.
What I'm offended by is the fact that you come in here and tell
us you're not using ladders. You were using ladders. You go so far as
to stand next to a pygmy date palm that's maybe seven feet tall and
you're holding a little pair of clippers and a cut-off dead branch, and
you think that we're going to be so ridiculous as to fall for all of that.
When I hear that you had ladders on the site and three men up
trimming 24 trees, yes, it does require a license, by county code.
MR. L YKOS: I make a motion we uphold the citation.
MR. JOSLIN: I second the motion.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
Page 1 7
October 15, 2008
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. L YKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir.
Ben Johnson, are you present?
MR. JOHNSON: I'm here.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't be afraid, we're not always that
way.
If you would, state your name and I'll have you sworn in, sir.
MR. JOHNSON: Ben Johnson, director of Ramp Doctors,
Incorporated.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And you got a citation also.
What are the particulars with you, Mr. Johnson?
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, basically in the letter that I had printed
up for you guys, you --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir.
MR. JOHNSON: -- pretty much have the story.
Well, I've been in business seven years, and I do specialty
carpentry and specialty type structures. And there's only a handful of
guys in the country that do it. And I pretty much sell to cities,
municipalities, government jobs. And basically I usually deal with
their risk management as far as their requirements that the cities or
counties needs.
And, well, when I first got the license in this county I was under
the assumption -- well, I went to the -- one of the windows over there
and talked to somebody, and I had asked if I need -- you know, if I
Page 18
October 15, 2008
have to get any special licensing for what I do. Because the structures
I do are not attached to a dwelling, they stand separate. And most of
the other cities and counties view it as they're buying an object, like
you'd walk into Wal-Mart, purchase something and set it in the area
where it's going to be used. Even though this is a large structure, it's
considered a -- most of the other counties consider it a manufactured
product.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you help me a minute. I'm a little
bit not sharp today. What is it you do? You build ramps?
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, I make the skateboard ramps for
extreme sports for --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, now I'm with you. I was in a
wheelchair going up a ramp. I'm sorry. Okay.
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, nothing that attaches to a dwelling or for
handicapped --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just skate boards, okay.
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, these are structures that you see like on
TV, on X Games and -- and basically there's only a handful of people
that do it. There's maybe about 25 in the country. So, you know,
obviously I have to be -- to make sales, I pretty much cover the
southwest states.
So I have -- you know, I live in Collier myself. I've been a
resident since about '88. And I've been incorporated for seven years.
And so when I came in, I wanted to see what I needed to get all my--
you know, so I was able to pay taxes, get my license and zoning and
everything.
And they had told me, the guy -- and actually I saw him walking
around, he still works here. I don't know his name. He's a short guy.
He had -- kind of stocky with real hairy arms.
But anyway, he was the guy that I talked to seven years ago. I
went to him, I said -- I told him, I build these structures, they don't
attach, they're specialty carpentry, do I need to get any type of
Page 19
October 15, 2008
licensing? And he told me no, just occupational is fine.
So for seven years I was under the assumption that I was
working fine. And then when I -- I think it was Allen? Yeah, he came
out to inspect what we were doing, and I got issued citations (sic) for
not having a carpentry license when I was doing a manufactured
product.
But I ended up taking the test. I got the license I needed now.
But basically I just wanted to see, because there was no prior basis for
having a ticket in this, to see if I could have it taken off, because --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you familiar with the Fleischman
Park skate area?
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, that's where we're working right now.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you know this board shut that
project down when it was in the middle of construction?
MR. JOHNSON : Yeah, that was a -- they had subcontracted --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, no, no, no, no. We had a guy
from California that didn't have a license. And the city came in here,
they had issued him a permit. And we shut the project down.
The guy went and got his license at Gainesville Testing, what,
within about two weeks, finished the proj ect, came back in here,
thanked all of us for making him go get a license, and everything
turned out fine. Now here we come again.
MR. JOHNSON: Oh, I did that. I mean, I didn't want to argue.
Technically --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You just want -- you want the money
to go away.
MR. JOHNSON: Well, I don't -- well, yeah, basically. Because
what happens is it's -- well, being that I'm a vendor for the county, I
technically -- I look at my operating costs at the end of the year, it
goes into my operating costs, and technically I have to re-bill the
county for the work I do. So it's kind of like you're shooting yourself
in the foot. You know, us being county employees and that I have to,
Page 20
October 15, 2008
you know -- but I mean, I can pay it, but I really try to keep costs low
as far as, you know, my operating costs and everything.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah.
MR. JOHNSON: But just to--
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I didn't feel the $300 coming out of
my pocket when you explained it that way, but --
MR. JOHNSON: Well, I mean, it all adds up. You know, that's
why I try to do the -- you know, get the requirements that the risk
management needs and --
MR. JERULLE: Where was the citation issued for?
MR. JOHNSON: It was issued at Fleischman Park. I was--
MR. JERULLE: At Fleischman Park.
MR. JOHNSON: -- in the middle ofa contract with the City of
Naples.
MR. JOSLIN: Wasn't the other in Fleischman Park also?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's the same one.
MR. OSSORIO: Exactly the same one.
I'm going to give you a quick history, and maybe I'll give you a
synopsis of what happened.
Allen Kennette went out there. We -- obviously you can look at
the photographs. And they are -- this is engineered specifications. And
it's built on-site. It's clearly a carpentry contractor. And he even says
that he's a carpentry contractor, but he's a specialty.
And under the code, once he took the carpentry exam, I
reviewed his affidavits and his experience, and per the contractor
licensing ordinance I restricted him only to do ramps.
So he has a license now for carpentry contracting, restricted to
ramps only. Because he didn't show anything that he was in high-rises
or commercial buildings or residential property.
But clearly, if you can look at -- if you'll hear Allen Kennette's
testimony, the fact that he took -- he went to bid with the City of
Naples and he's the only one without a license. And unfortunately (sic)a
Page 21
October 15, 2008
that he is the cheapest by far, of course.
And we've -- Mr. Johnson's come in, he was candid with us,
signed up to take the exam and he passed the exam just like the other
gentleman did from California.
And so we try to be consistent. Clearly this is not a piece of
furniture, this is a setback issues ( sic) with engineering specifications
which they review through the planning department through the City
of Naples, and it was built per plans on-site. Workers' comp was
needed, the whole nine yards, which Mr. Johnson does have.
And we did issue a stop work order and we did release a stop
work order once he obtained the necessary license to do ramps.
MR. JERULLE: Did he receive a permit from the City of Naples
to do this work?
MR. OSSORIO: City of Naples did not want to issue a building
permit, but they did -- and that is a city building department's issue. I
don't know why they did not issue it. But it did go through their plans
examiners and they did review it for specifications.
And I believe that there's going to be some engineer's
specifications sign-off on that.
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, we had it engineered. You can look the
plans up on the city under purchasing.
MR. OSSORIO: Just throw in a comment that -- and Bob Dunn
will probably talk a little about that, ifhe needs to. But it's not
uncommon that you get an engineer to sign off on the proj ect versus
have a building inspector go out there and sign off on it.
MR. JOSLIN: So what you're saying is that he started the project
without the correct license, then got cited for the citation. Then came
and took the test and passed the test and now he has a license that's
legal --
MR. OSSORIO: He has a --
MR. JOSLIN: -- to do the work? But in the meantime he got the
ticket.
Page 22
October 15, 2008
MR. OSSORIO: Yes, he got the ticket on the job.
MR. JOSLIN: On the job, without the license.
MR. OSSORIO: Without the license. And the stop work order,
per the code.
MR. JOSLIN: Gotcha.
MR. OSSORIO: And then he came into compliance, which we
have many meetings with people that get citations, we always have a
meeting with them, tell them how to get into compliance, that's what
our main focus is. He is -- took the exam. I think he drove up to Ocala.
I don't know if he spent the night or not, but he did go up to Ocala,
Gainesville. Took both parts. I think he failed one or two of them at
one time, and passed. Came down. I reviewed it. And I restricted his
license due to the fact that he didn't show anything except ramp
building. So I restricted it to carpentry of ramp building.
MR. JERULLE: You bid this project to the City of Naples?
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, I've been bidding projects --
MR. JERULLE: And they awarded you with a contract to build
MR. JOHNSON: Contract, yeah.
MR. JERULLE: -- these ramps?
MR. JOHNSON: I have a 90-day contract to --
MR. JERULLE: I just have a hard time with the city awarding
him a contract to do the work and then we come in after the fact and
give him a fine. I just have a problem with that.
MR. JOHNSON : Well, the licensing, like I said -- I mean, if you
wanted to establish that, that I needed a carpentry license, I'm okay
with that. And I went ahead and did that.
But the only thing I wanted to argue was just the reason for the
ticket was there wasn't a basis at the time that was clear. I mean, if -- I
have it listed manufacturing wood products on my occupational
license, and the county knows what I've been doing for seven years.
And if one year you decided, oh, wait, this guy has to have a
Page 23
October 15, 2008
carpentry license, I should have got a letter in the mail saying, you
know, I'm going to have to redo my requirements, take some test.
But I didn't get that. I just -- somebody just walked on the job
without warning or any notice and just gave me the ticket. So that's the
-- the only reason, I was just trying to argue the ticket. I'm not arguing
the licensing, which I did get, so --
MR. JOSLIN: I don't really think that there's any reason to argue
the ticket either then. Because I'm going to make a motion that the
ticket stands. That's the cost of doing business. Now you know.
MR. JOHNSON: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The city's done this before.
The other one they came with him and wanted us to issue a
special license, which we refused to do.
MR. JERULLE: I wasn't on the board with the other one, so I
don't know the history. I just -- in good conscience, I just think it's the
city's responsibility, if they're issuing a purchase order or a contract to
someone, to verify that they have the correct license.
MR. JOSLIN: Maybe that's something that needs to be discussed
with the City of Naples, Mr. Ossorio. Maybe we should have a -- put
that on the agenda for next month to have a meeting with them, maybe
just to update them on the reasons of why we require licenses for
contractors.
MR. OSSORIO: Well, I'll wait to -- I'll respond when we finish
with this citation, so we'll keep it clean.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any other questions?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need a motion.
MR. JOSLIN: I made the motion.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Motion --
MR. JOSLIN: That the citation stands.
MR. HORN: Second, Horn.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion?
Page 24
October 15, 2008
MR. L YKOS: I agree with Terry, I think that the gentleman did
his due diligence in verifying the licenses he had to have, and what the
requirements were for him to operate in Collier County and to serve
the contracts that he has signed. And if the city did not do their due
diligence, I think it's the city's fault.
I strongly believe that anybody that does business here,
especially carpentry, should be licensed, insured, have Workers'
Compensation. I agree with that 100 percent. I believe that that's in
what's the public's best interest.
But I think the gentleman did his due diligence. And if he was
led down the wrong path by the city or by an employee of the county,
I just am not comfortable going back and giving him a fine for that.
MR. JOSLIN: This scenario he's talking about happened seven
years ago when he got his license. I think he's speaking about Paul
Balzano, if I'm not mistaken.
MR. OSSORIO: No, Paul-- you just said you saw him today;
am I correct?
MR. JOHNSON: You're talking about for the citation?
MR. OSSORIO: No, the short guy with the hairy arms. What
you said before. He's still working.
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, that was the guy I talked to seven years
ago who --
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, but he doesn't work for us.
MR. JOSLIN: He isn't working here.
MR. OSSORIO: He could be somewhere in engineering or could
be somewhere in the tax collector's office, I don't know. But he's not
in building review and permitting and doesn't work for me.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I just -- Michael, I just -- the only
problem I've got on this is you gave him a license to do ramps and
then all of a sudden we said this isn't a ramp. And it was still an
engineered product.
MR. OSSORIO: Well, I go back to -- I hear what you're saying
Page 25
October 15, 2008
referencing the City of Naples and Collier County and Everglades
City . We try to treat those entities the same as a homeowner.
Mr. Lykos, I'm sure that if you put a bid on a project and the
homeowner who hired XYZ Company didn't check their license, you
would be upset and you would be the first in here, say, that guy's not
got his license, shut him down and give him a ticket.
We take the same stance, is that this gentleman bid on the
project, yeah, the City of Naples is a homeowner, they're not in the
business of licensing, and we've talked to them. And we've talked to
purchasing in Collier County as well.
And it seems to be somewhat of an issue that unlicensed
contractors do get bids on county projects or City of Naples projects.
It happens. If it didn't happen we wouldn't have a job.
But we do communicate with them. I'm sure Allen Kennette will
tell you that he has several meetings with the purchasing department
and they're going to be forthcoming.
But to excuse someone -- I'm not saying this particular case --
that while the homeowner should have known that he wasn't licensed.
And unfortunately we try to take the stance that this contractor should
have known, and there was many -- he's not the only one in town who
does this work. And the other people have followed suit and they've
gotten all their licensing squared away, and so therefore that, you
know, you can say that he's unlicensed and at an unfair advantage.
MR. JOHNSON: Oh, I should say, though -- well, the City of
Naples, when they do a bid package when this goes out on the public
website where anybody in the country can bid, it does list on the City
of Naples bid package saying you have to have any applicable licenses
necessary for the job. Which at the time I had an occupational license,
so I did think that's what I had what was necessary. So --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I've got a motion on the floor,
I've got a second.
Any more discussion?
Page 26
October 15, 2008
MR. L YKOS : Well, Michael, I have to tell you, I accept your
argument.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Motion on the floor. Any more
discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How about a call for the vote.
MR. JERULLE: I'm just not comfortable with this.
You've been doing this for seven years?
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. Well, as far as unfair advantage, no
other contractor can bid on it in the county. Because in order to make
these kind of ramps, you have to be able to skateboard or bike or
rollerblade to know how they feel. Or else the county -- that's one of
the requirements we have with cities and municipalities. I mean, it
goes out to bid for anybody to, you know, look at it, but no contractors
will take this sort of thing because they don't know the certain angles,
the radiuses.
MR. GUITE': How many bids did Naples accept, or --
MR. JOHNSON: We have a -- a bid package?
MR. GUITE': How many other contractors bid on the project?
MR. JOHNSON: Out of Naples, none ever bid. I get some from
out of state. Usually there's a guy in Orlando that will bid, there's one
up in Jacksonville. And then there's a few in St. Louis, some in
California.
MR. JERULLE: I accept most of your argument. But this is a
person that's been doing this for seven years. And he's asked -- or like
we said, he did his due diligence. He's asked the county. He's working
for the city. I just -- I just don't feel comfortable.
It's not something that this gentleman started last week or last
month, he's been doing it for seven years.
MR. JOSLIN: How many ramps have you built in Collier
County?
MR. JOHNSON: We have Marco Island, we have East Naples,
Page 27
October 15, 2008
Golden Gate, Fleischman Park. And I think that's all the public ones.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you involved with the guy from
California on the skate park?
MR. JOHNSON: That was -- I don't do the cement ramps so
what I did was I subbed that out to the city. The guy I know that
would get this project done the certain specifications we wanted it.
Because he has the crew.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And for those of you that
weren't on the board, he was pretty much world famous. He had parks
all over the country that he had built. That is a state-of-the-art facility.
MR. GUITE': Did you build the original ramps there at
Fleischman?
MR. JOHNSON: The very original unit back in '97 was an outfit
out of New Jersey. And at the time they had purchased one ramp and
the specifications were off. But somehow the city cleared it anyway.
And I eventually over time ended up taking parts of it and
changing it around and renovating it, basically.
MR. JOSLIN: Did I just hear you say that you contracted the
concrete park, though, when it was done?
MR. JOHNSON: No, I set the city up with the vendor.
MR. JOSLIN: With the vendor.
MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, so -- yeah, I wasn't part of it him at the
time.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let's bring this thing to a close.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, just before you get to the -- can
we have Allen Kennette? I think the board has some questions about
how many contractors bid on the job. And -- if you want to hear that.
That was one of the questions from one of the board members. Before
you make the vote. He can --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
MR. KENNETTE: And it's Allen Kennette, License and
Page 28
October 15, 2008
Compliance Officer. I got it right this time.
The reason we went out for this to begin with was we looked at
what he had for a license. He has wood products, manufacturing. No
installation on it. So he can't do installing on the site. He can build
them at his ware factory or wherever he wants to build the ramps and
drop them off. That's what his license is for, for the building tax.
He's out there taking all these products apart and rebuilding them
right there on-site. He's doing a big project.
There were seven bidders on the job. Some were way out of
whack. He bid -- the other bid company was American Ramp
Company, which I included in the packet, which was $147,000 to do
that job.
Ramp Doctors' bid was 33,000.
The City of Naples looked at his business tax that he does ramps,
he had Workers' Compo insurance that he submitted to them for his
employees. They figured he was licensed due to the fact that he had
the wood products thing for ramps and he advertises Ramp Doctors,
Incorporated. They've used him before.
Now, I don't know ifhe's ever assembled things on-site, but he's
not supposed to be assembling there on the site. This is the first time
we caught him at the park doing it. That's why we shut him down and
made him get a carpentry license, due to the fact that he's building a
big, huge skate thing that I included in the packet.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I saw that.
MR. KENNETTE: Yeah, you'll see it in there.
It's pretty intense that he's building there. It's not just a couple
little ramps that they're using to jump over.
MR. GUITE': So he can build the components at his warehouse
and then drop them off?
MR. KENNETTE: Right, he's --
MR. GUITE': I don't see the difference.
MR. KENNETTE: These are manufac --
Page 29
October 15, 2008
MR. GUITE': I don't see the difference at all.
MR. KENNETTE: The difference is that he's building them
there and he has to bring them on-site. Now, they have to be all
attached. Now, I don't know how they're being attached, engineering
attached altogether. But he's not doing that. He's building them there
on the site.
MR. OSSORIO: To respond to that, and it's like -- I'll give you
an example. I'll try to give you an example. Furniture store company
wants to build a piece of furniture and they build it on the
manufacturing -- you know, and then they ship it and it gets put on
place. That's what manufacturing he does, no installation.
This particular case is this is pre-engineered, there's
two-by- fours, there's site specific drawings, there's engineering
involved, and there's carpentry. You're ripping wood and you're
cutting, measuring on the job site, which is considered a construction
site.
It's not a piece of furniture, you're not going to Home Depot to
buy a piece of furniture and put it in your bedroom and put clothes in
it. That is a manufacture that -- with no installation that you can take
with you.
MR. NEALE: Let me just read what 489.103 says, as far as the
exemption goes. 489.103(6). These are the exemptions from
requirements for licensure.
It says, the sale or installation of any finished products, materials
or articles of merchandise that are not fabricated into and do not
become a permanent fixed part of the structure, such as awnings.
So that's specifically what 489.103 says.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Do I have a motion on the
floor?
MR. JOSLIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What was it?
MR. NEALE: To uphold the citation.
Page 30
October 15, 2008
MR. JOSLIN: Motion that the citation stands.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I had a second. Okay, we had
enough discussion? Let's call for the vote, see if the motion stands.
All those in favor?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
MR. L YKOS: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
It's a tie vote.
MR. NEALE: Tie vote. Motion fails.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Motion fails for lack of a majority.
MR. JOSLIN: Back to the planning board.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Back to the drawing board.
MR. GUITE': I just don't see the difference between
manufacturing it off-site and bringing it in and set it in, then going
on-site and just put it together. You still need the same skills to put it
together in your warehouse as you do on-site.
MR. L YKOS: I think the difference is what Mr. Kennette said
about the occupational license that he does have, which is for
manufacturing off-site. His current license or the license that he had
did not include installation on-site, it only included manufacturing
off-site. To me that's the key different.
MR. JOSLIN: The reason why he got violated was because of
the license that he had at that time, which was the manufacturing
portion of the license. Now he's gone and taken the test and he's got
the carpentry license now, but at that time he did not have it. So this is
an infraction he did before he got the license.
Page 31
October 15, 2008
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Guite', I just -- I hear your argument. I'm
going to try to put it in a different spin.
We have many companies out there that have manufacturing of
tile and marble. No installation. And they're allowed to drop off there
on the job site. They're not allowed to do the installing. But they have
an occupational license to manufacture it and to make the tile, but they
can only drop off.
So if that helps you in your deliberation, we can do it.
And we've had many tile companies -- we've issued many stop
work orders for that reason, that they said manufacturing tile and
marble. And it says no contracting. It doesn't mean you can take the
tile, drop it off and install it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale?
MR. NEALE: Mr. Zachary and I just had a little side bar here in
discussing this. Since the citation was not upheld, this is over.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Say that again?
MR. NEALE: Since the citation was not upheld -- the vote was
on whether the citation was valid. That vote failed because it was a tie
vote. Therefore, the hearing's over.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because it didn't -- it wasn't sustained.
MR. NEALE: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Makes sense.
That's legalese from the suits. So the hearing's over.
MR. NEALE: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're done.
MR. JOHNSON: Well, thanks for hearing. Does that mean that
the ticket I don't have to pay then?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON : Yeah, just have -- you're clear.
MR. JOHNSON: Do I have to see anybody out front or--
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. You're done. Thank you.
MR. JOHNSON: Thank you.
MR. NEALE: And this demonstrates again why we need nine
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October 15, 2008
people on the board.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, don't tell me.
We're looking for a consumer, if anybody wants to apply. They
can never have had any association with the construction company --
MR. JOSLIN: You're all done.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- unfortunately.
MR. GUITE': Is that the City of Naples consumer, or --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, does it have to be City of
Naples resident?
MR. OSSORIO: I've been communicating with Sue Filson and
the City of Naples. And the clerk's office is having a tough time. And I
made a point on my calendar to actually go down to the City of Naples
in the next week or so to find out what the story is.
And if we can't find anyone, then we're going to go ahead and
try to fill it within Collier County, not in the City of Naples.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Could we offer Ann Keller some
more money?
MR. GUITE': Double her pay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: She was great.
Next, Gordon Jenkins. I know he's here.
MR. OSSORIO: On that note, can I just ask Mr. Zachary one
question?
Mr. Zachary, does that mean he doesn't have to pay the ticket or
he does have to pay the ticket?
MR. NEALE: He does not have to pay the ticket.
MR. ZACHARY: The motion was to uphold the ticket. That
motion failed.
MR. OSSORIO: Okay.
MR. GUITE': If it was the other way around, then he'd have to
pay.
MR. L YKOS: Right.
MR. OSSORIO: Got it.
Page 33
October 15, 2008
MR. NEALE: If the motion had passed, he would have to pay
the ticket.
MR. GUITE': He was lucky on that one then.
MR. JOSLIN: That's a fact.
MR. ZACHARY: He came at the right time.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Jenkins, if you would, state your
name and I'll have you sworn in.
MR. JENKINS: Gordon Jenkins, from Gordon Luxury Homes
and Interiors, Inc.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to step back and not handle
this case. Mr. Jenkins is a customer of mine. Just so there's no question
about impropriety.
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Jenkins, would you please state the reasons
why you're here today.
MR. JENKINS: I would like to get Advanced Contracting
established as a commercial contracting company and work off of the
license that's currently in place for Gordon Luxury Homes and
Interiors.
MR. JOSLIN: How long have you been a licensed contractor
here in Collier County?
MR. JENKINS: Since June of'05.
MR. JOSLIN: And you're currently a home builder, correct?
Residential home builder?
MR. JENKINS: Residential, exactly.
MR. JOSLIN: On the front of the packet, Mr. Ossorio, I see a
notation that says I need a credit report for Gordon Luxury Homes and
Interiors, Inc. Has that been received yet? It's right underneath his
driver's license.
MR. JENKINS: That's actually my handwriting. That got sent to
the credit agency to supply us with --
MR. JOSLIN: That was your handwriting?
Page 34
October 15, 2008
MR. JENKINS: Yeah.
MR. JOSLIN: Oh, okay, I'm sorry.
MR. JENKINS : Yeah, that was just -- sorry about that.
MR. OSSORIO: If you look at the packet, it's in there under
Merit Credit, Incorporated anyway.
MR. NEALE: And he's got a 765 FICA.
MR. JOSLIN: Members of the board have any questions?
MR. JERULLE: Are you licensed by the state?
MR. JENKINS: I have a registered builder's license, yes.
MR. JERULLE: Is that license number included in here? Is the
license included in this packet?
MR. NEALE: Yeah, it's the last page.
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Ossorio, has there been any derogatory
remarks in this company?
MR. OSSORIO: Of Mr. Jenkins, no.
MR. JERULLE: So you're a luxury home builder and you want
to go into the commercial. Why?
MR. JENKINS: At least have the opportunity.
MR. JERULLE: What commercial experience do you have?
MR. JENKINS: In Maryland I did some commercial projects
there and was prime contractor for Bolling Air Force Base and some
other commercial proj ects.
Here I've done one storage building for Crescent Beach down on
Marco Island. Very small.
MR. OSSORIO: Now, the term -- just to give you clarification,
he says he remains a residential builder. But you're not a residential
builder, you're a building contractor; am I correct?
MR. JENKINS: Yes.
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, so --
MR. JENKINS: But I basically use Gordon Luxury Homes as
the name to do residential. And I'd like to separate the two from
residential and commercial, and that's why I'd like to have Advanced
Page 35
October 15, 2008
Contracting.
MR. OSSORIO: So you do have experience in commercial, it's
just that --
MR. JENKINS: Yes.
MR. OSSORIO: -- you just want to separate one -- the primary
does -- the building license does commercial, one does residential.
MR. JENKINS: Exactly.
MR. JERULLE: And you're going to be limited on what you do
on the commercial side then from your license?
MR. JENKINS: The limitations that are under the guidelines that
I'm under right now, three-story building and under.
MR. JERULLE: And under.
MR. JENKINS: Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to go out and build,
you know, a high-rise.
MR. JOSLIN: I see nothing derogatory on the credit report,
nothing derogatory on anything of his.
Is there amotion?
MR. L YKOS: Most to approve, Lykos.
MR. GUITE': Second, Guite'.
MR. JOSLIN: Got a motion and a second.
Any discussion?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've worked for him for several years.
He's a good customer. Pays well.
MR. JOSLIN: No further discussion, I'll call for the vote.
All those in favor of approving?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
MR. L YKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
Page 36
October 15, 2008
MR. JOSLIN: Any opposed?
(No response.)
MR. JOSLIN: Motion carries. Good luck.
MR. JENKINS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Jenkins, your files are in here so
don't go to Maggie today. But tomorrow you can and get it taken care
of.
MR. JENKINS: Okay. Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We wish you well.
Steven -- no, I'm sorry, James L. DeMarco, are you here? Good
morning, sir. Ifyou'll-- you know the procedure by now, don't you?
MR. DeMARCO: Yeah.
MR. DeMARCO: James DeMarco.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Same thing, second entity. Just give
us the whyfors.
MR. DeMARCO: Essentially just to -- primarily to make a
living. I'll be working for City Excavating, and one of the principals
intends to take his general's license after the first of the year and this
would be somewhat of a stop gap until he does accomplish that. But it
would enable them to get started.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got any control over City
Excavating?
MR. DeMARCO: Ownership, you mean?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Or--
MR. DeMARCO: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- just control that you won't pull
permits if there's problems.
MR. DeMARCO: Correct.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You understand that your license is on
the line?
MR. DeMARCO: Yes, I do.
Page 37
October 15, 2008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: For bills and everything else.
MR. DeMARCO: Yes, I understand that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Just be careful. We've seen
guys get themselves in trouble.
MR. DeMARCO: No, I understand that. And the people that I'm
dealing with I know fairly well. I know things change, but I'm
comfortable with that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. L YKOS: Mr. DeMarco, how will you be compensated by
the second entity?
MR. DeMARCO: Weekly wage.
MR. L YKOS: I'm sorry?
MR. DeMARCO: Weekly wage.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You answered that exactly how you're
supposed to answer it.
MR. JOSLIN: Somebody must have cultured you.
MR. DeMARCO: No, that's not what it is.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, that's good. You know what we
were looking for.
MR. DeMARCO: I believe so.
MR. JERULLE: And you said you had no ownership?
MR. DeMARCO: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which that is acceptable. And we
used to have a financial officer and we've done away with that.
MR. NEALE: The state still has one. The county has decided not
to do one.
MR. OSSORIO: See on Page 10, Resolution of Authorization.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where do you see page numbers?
MR. OSSORIO: Bottom right-hand side, and it says one-zero on
it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, they started printing. Mine didn't
print. There we go.
Page 38
October 15, 2008
MR. OSSORIO: Bottom right.
MR. JOSLIN: The only thing I'm looking at on the credit report
is -- I'm trying to make sense of this credit report. But I see something
in here that says '94 you had something that was included in a
bankruptcy?
MR. DeMARCO: I'm sorry?
MR. JOSLIN: If I got the right report here. In one of '94,
Citibank, a credit card. It says a payment of $6,900 that was included
in a bankruptcy. Can you kind of --
MR. DeMARCO: That was in 2000.
MR. JOSLIN: It was saying in one of '94.
MR. GUITE': Is that what you're looking for?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know, it's way past the 10-year
limit, though.
MR. JOSLIN: I don't see the bankruptcy itself.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You can't report 'em after seven years.
We're just thumbing through papers right now.
You ever had any complaints against you?
MR. DeMARCO: I'm sorry?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you ever had any complaints
against you?
MR. DeMARCO: Legal, you mean?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, no, no, work wise.
MR. DeMARCO: Oh, no.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: With the county.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hu-uh.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
Are you Belaire excavating now?
MR. DeMARCO: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who is that?
MR. DeMARCO: That was a former employee of mine. They're
a national company out of Minnesota.
Page 39
October 15, 2008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then why are we getting that? Who is
this?
MR. JOSLIN: James L. DeMarco.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: James DeMarco, yeah.
MR. JOSLIN: It's the right person, right?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you have a federal tax lien in
2005?
MR. DeMARCO: Yes. It's been satisfied through a payment
agreement.
And the amount shown on there is not correct, but I can't -- I
don't have anything that shows the dollar amount other than that.
That's why I didn't --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 'Cause what's showing's a big dollar
amount.
MR. DeMARCO: No, I understand that.
But it's -- there's also documentation in there that tells you it's
been satisfied through payment agreement.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do we have that?
MR. DeMARCO: It's in there.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, installment agreement.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. DeMarco, just to let you know that some of
these packages you put together are missing some things, that's why
we're having a --
MR. DeMARCO: Really?
MR. OSSORIO: Mine's fine, and I looked through Ian's, but
some of the board members are missing some items on here.
MR. DeMARCO: I'm sorry, I didn't realize that.
MR. L YKOS: I'm just trying to do some math in my head.
MR. JOSLIN: I know. It's a lot.
MR. L YKOS: $1,000 a month is going to take what, nine years
payoff.
MR. JOSLIN: Figure 10 years, round numbers.
Page 40
October 15, 2008
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's if they froze the interest and
penalties.
MR. L YKOS: Right, say plus penalties and interest.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did they freeze interest and penalty?
They didn't, did they?
MR. DeMARCO: No, but it's an offer and compromise. It's not
the dollar amount you're looking at.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you've had a good tax attorney
working with you?
MR. DeMARCO: I hope so.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, good.
MR. L YKOS: Well, what's been signed, this installment
agreement, is what I have a copy of. I don't have a copy of anything
else. I don't have a copy of an offer and compromise that's been
accepted, I don't have anything else, so this is what we're working
with.
MR. DeMARCO: That's -- okay, fine. I can produce that.
But the fact of the matter is it's satisfied by the agreement. The
payments have been made timely. My credit rating is good. There's
nothing against my license. There's no disparity marks on my license
for the past seven years that it's been enforced.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale?
MR. NEALE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give us guidelines.
MR. NEALE: Well, really since this is a qualification of a
second entity, really you'd look at it as if you were looking at
essentially a new license. But the only thing you're looking at is, you
know, the standard test for credit, which is -- would be -- and I'll read
you exactly what the statute says, what the rule says, which is:
Financial responsibility is defined -- because that seems to be the only
question of the board is not competence but financial responsibility --
is defined as: The ability to safeguard that the public will not sustain
Page 41
October 15, 2008
economic loss from the contractor's inability to pay his lawful
contractual obligations.
And that's the test that the board is reviewing is is there anything
in the documentation provided in front of you or in the testimony that
would indicate that he could not fulfill his lawful or contractual
obligations of the contracting business which he is seeking to qualify.
The board needs to look at what his actual liability would be
regarding the contractual obligations of the entity he's qualifying. That
is, is he the one that's having to pay the contracting bills for the entity
he's qualifying, or is that entity separate and apart from him and his
personal financial capability to pay those bills.
Because again we're looking at the -- even though he is the
qualifier from a credit point of view, you're looking at the credit of the
company he is qualifying and the credit of the company -- credit of the
company he's seeking to qualify and the credit of the company he's
currently qualifying. Credit of the company he's currently qualifying,
you're looking at to see if it's had problems as far as paying its
contractual bills. Company he's seeking to qualify, is it having trouble
paying its contractual bills or has it ever in the past.
His personal credit may be of interest, but it's not determinative.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who is, is --
MR. NEALE: The real question is, you know, even though he's
the qualifier, can City Excavating pay its bills.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And what I'm looking at is the
three partners that are there, which are Geach, Campobasso and
Schneider. I'd love to see credit reports on -- well, I can't ask for credit
reports on them, though.
MR. NEALE: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the company's brand new so it
doesn't exist. There you go again, Terry.
MR. JERULLE: You're going to keep Apollo Excavating?
MR. DeMARCO: Uh-huh.
Page 42
October 15, 2008
MR. JERULLE: And do business as Apollo. And at the same
time you wish to qualify City Excavating and then City will be doing
business.
MR. DeMARCO: Correct.
MR. JERULLE: Will you be bidding against each other?
MR. DeMARCO: Possibly.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's a pretty good move.
MR. DeMARCO: What's that have to do with it?
MR. JERULLE: I just asked the question. Just asked the
question.
So there are two totally separate entities, and you'd be the
qualifier for both?
MR. DeMARCO: Correct.
MR. JERULLE: And I guess that's -- Mr. Neale, that's perfectly
acceptable?
MR. NEALE: Vb-huh.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to make a motion to
approve. But the license holder will be responsible for having credit
reports sent to Contractor Licensing every three months for the next
12 months, at which time that requirement will stop.
Basically you'll be under 12-month probation as we watch your
credi t.
MR. DeMARCO: I'll give you credit reports on them right now.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, I'm making a motion. You'll be
required to do it every three months if that -- for four times, if that
passes.
MR. JOSLIN: Is there a credit report in here for City now?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No.
MR. JOSLIN: No.
Would that be part of it too, to have him furnish a copy of a
credit report on City, or is that not available?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: City should not even exist. Or it's a
Page 43
October 15, 2008
brand new start-up company.
MR. JOSLIN: I'm sorry, you're correct. That's right.
MR. DeMARCO: Correct.
MR. JOSLIN: I'll second that motion.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You all see what I'm doing?
MR. L YKOS: Yeah, but how about if we do both companies?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I'll amend that to both
companies, Apollo -- and really all I want is the companies, Apollo
and City, that we'll monitor for the next 12 months. And if there's no
problem, then we'll stop monitoring.
MR. DeMARCO: That's fine.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're good with that?
MR. DeMARCO: Yeah. Like I mentioned, this is a stop gap
situation. Because hopefully by the first quarter of the year we'll be
hanging -- one of the owners will be hanging his general contractor's
license at City. So it could all be a foregone conclusion.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Sounds good.
Any other discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. All those in favor?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. L YKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
MR. GUITE': Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You opposed?
Okay, one opposed, seven in favor.
You got it. You can do it tomorrow. You heard me say that your
Page 44
October 15,2008
files are in here.
MR. DeMARCO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wish you well.
Steven Speak, come forward, please. State your name then I'll
have you sworn in.
MR. SPEAK: Steven Speak.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, we're going to review you,
because we -- you got turned down, well, just a few weeks ago, right?
MR. SPEAK: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, go ahead.
MR. SPEAK: Credit report. It's -- the bankruptcy you see on
there was never followed through with. I didn't gain anything from
that. We just decided at the last minute to not file. But I don't know
how to get that cleared off my credit report.
And most of the things that are still on there or newly put on are
just reoccurring things from the past.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How old's your daughter?
MR. SPEAK: Seven.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Our prayers go out to her.
MR. SPEAK: Thank you very much. She does well with it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good.
So basically you haven't had any trouble until you went through
the medical with your daughter?
MR. SPEAK: I wouldn't say that. We had -- I lost a good job,
and I lost a house and a car, some things like that that went on there.
And it kind of put me in some financial problems.
But that's many years ago. And we're trying -- we've been good
for the past few years.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where do you hold licenses now?
MR. SPEAK: I don't.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
Page 45
October 15, 2008
MR. SPEAK: I do work for Chad Bowman, LLC. He has me on
his business, but that's under his license.
This is the first company I've -- or anything I've tried to get a
license for.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you be working for one of the
flooring companies in town that sub out --
MR. SPEAK: Yeah, we'll try to get business through Hadinger
Flooring, probably, and, you know, just word of mouth, any way I can
-- anything I can get.
MR. JERULLE: You do not have a license now?
MR. SPEAK: I do not.
MR. JERULLE: And who do you work for?
MR. SPEAK: I've worked for Chad Bowman, LLC and Rob
Roy, Inc.
MR. JERULLE: But not working for them currently?
MR. SPEAK: Not -- no, just off and on, as they need help.
They're small companies.
MR. OSSORIO: I've called their -- obviously you can look at the
paperwork. And I've talked to some of the experienced letters (sic) and
I've talked to them and they say he does good work.
MR. JOSLIN: How long have you been doing wood flooring?
MR. SPEAK: Since, I want to say, mid '05. Started with Chad
Bowman, just stepping in, helping, learning the ropes.
MR. JOSLIN: And how old are you?
MR. SPEAK: I'm 29.
MR. JOSLIN: Twenty-nine.
MR. SPEAK: Yes, sir.
MR. L YKOS: I've got a question here, Michael.
If I'm reading this right, and I might not be, on the application,
name of firm, Accent Wood Flooring, LLC. And then when you get to
number nine it shows Chad Bowman as an officer or managing
member of the firm. It's in the very beginning of the packet.
Page 46
October 15, 2008
MR. NEALE: Yeah. Strange.
MR. L YKOS: Does that mean that Mr. Bowman's going to be an
officer of Accent Wood Flooring?
MR. SPEAK: No.
MR. NEALE: I think it's just --
MR. SPEAK: If I put that on there, it's a mistake.
MR. NEALE: I think it's a mistake by him.
MR. SPEAK: Yeah, absolutely.
It would just be me by myself. If I needed help -- I'm not saying
that -- he would not be working for me. I may sub out some work to
him. I don't really know how that works. I need to find out the -- how
to do that.
MR. L YKOS: But the way this application is presented, it's
incorrect.
MR. NEALE: Yeah. Because the way the application's written,
Chad Bowman is the only member and owner of Accent Wood
Flooring.
MR. SPEAK: No. See, that should be me. I must have
misunderstood that.
MR. GUITE': Is there a trades test for wood flooring?
MR. OSSORIO: No, it's just a business procedure test.
MR. NEALE: He got 78 on the test.
MR. SPEAK: That's partially because I had the wrong book. It's
not my -- I mean, it's my ignorance not to buy the new book. But I still
passed, so --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does your wife work?
MR. SPEAK: She does. She works at Chanel over at Dillard's in
the mall, and also a nightclub bartending.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you're working right now with
these other guys, right?
MR. SPEAK: Partially, yes. I work at Bay Forest. It's a
community off of Vanderbilt Beach Road. My father is over the
Page 47
October 15,2008
grounds maintenance out there, and I do just some oddball jobs for
him. Just anything I can to stay busy, hoping that this would take off
quickly so I can go off on my own.
MR. GUITE': The bankruptcy has been discharged, so --
MR. NEALE: Uh-huh.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No.
MR. GUITE': Pardon?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, it hasn't.
MR. NEALE: Yeah, it has.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, it has been discharged. Okay.
MR. SPEAK: We never even showed up. We never even went to
the hearing.
MR. JOSLIN: They were going to file bankruptcy. Apparently
you decided not to?
MR. SPEAK: Decided not to. Heard -- was talking to some
people, they said that you may not be able to hold certain positions in
jobs, and I didn't want to hinder any openings for myself later on in
life so--
,
MR. JOSLIN: I think under the circumstances with the medical
things he's gone through and it seems to me like he's a pretty
upstanding young man to a degree, I make the motion that we approve
it with the same criteria as we did the last one, with the credit reports
every three months for a year, monitor you and see how you do.
MR. SPEAK: Absolutely.
MR. JOSLIN: I assume you're going to try to payoff some of
these debts that you have.
MR. SPEAK: That's exactly why I want to start my own
business, so I can do that.
MR. JOSLIN: With the way the economy is today, I have to
believe you.
MR. SPEAK: Yes, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: So I make a motion to approve under those
Page 48
October 15,2008
pretences.
MR. GUITE': I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. L YKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got unanimous. One hiccup and
it's over.
MR. SPEAK: Not a problem.
MR. JOSLIN: You understand what you have to do now, a--
MR. SPEAK: Yes, sir.
MR. JOSLIN: -- credit report every three months. Take it to Mr.
Ossorio's office and show you're doing something.
MR. SPEAK: Very good.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Make the best of it.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Speak, before you leave, I just want to
make sure that before you get your license, come see me in the
mornIng --
MR. SPEAK: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: -- and we'll go over some kind of a plan, we'll
put you on the outlook so I don't have to keep calling you every three
months --
MR. SPEAK: Sure.
Page 49
October 15, 2008
MR. OSSORIO: -- you can just stop in.
MR. SPEAK: Absolutely. Is that tomorrow morning?
MR. OSSORIO: Tomorrow morning's fine.
MR. SPEAK: Okay. Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's going to go celebrate.
Mr. Snyder?
MR. SNYDER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How did you end up being the last
one?
MR. SNYDER: I came in late with my paperwork.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. State your full name and I'll
have you sworn in.
MR. SNYDER: Ross Snyder.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Lay it out.
MR. SNYDER: I guess where this started was I've been a
resident of Naples --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you get a little closer to the mic?
MR. SNYDER: Yeah, sure.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You are on television, if you didn't
know.
MR. SNYDER: I know.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Snyder, I'll go ahead and give them a lead
and then you can talk to them.
One of the things that Mr. Snyder's going for, he's going for
actually a building registered licensed through our office and register
with Tallahassee.
And one of the things we actually look at, especially for
building, we actually look at their experience. And unfortunately on
the face of his application, you'll read his experience letters, it really
doesn't depict what -- obviously he's probably -- he's a cabinet
installer, he can do crown molding, he can do millwork and he can
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October 15, 2008
even put cabinets in.
But it really didn't depict the job, the license that he was going to
do. And unfortunately if I don't have that information, I'm not able to
make an assumption that he's qualified to be building license. And
obviously you know that to be a building license or contractor you
have to show experience. And also you have to know about permits
and residential homes and commercial buildings up to three stories.
So with that I asked Mr. Snyder to come talk to you, and maybe
Mr. Snyder can talk to you about his dealings about being a builder or
working in the building field.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So what are we looking at, credit or
experience or what?
MR. OSSORIO: No, you're going to be looking at his
experience. And you can read some -- you have Dakota Homebuilders
and then you have Florida Coast --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, he survived Jack Antaramian.
He's worked for Russell Budd, who's one of the best in the world. Don
Garrett. I mean, this is a who's who.
MR. OSSORIO: Now what page are you -- I'm only looking --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Front cover.
MR. OSSORIO: Okay. Well, that's the cover that he's going to
talk to you about. You have to actually look in the application stuff
what he submitted.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: So you look on -- I can only go what he
submitted on the day of his application. And you'll read through his
application, the affidavits, and you'll see two of them. One of them is
Dakota Homes and one is I believe Florida Coast Construction,
Incorporated, and Smith and DeShields.
And they all basically say that he's a great person for--
obviously he's a good person and obviously that he can do trim work.
Nothing in his application says that he's a building -- he worked
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October 15,2008
for a building contractor or did -- or under the supervision of a
building contractor or general contractor to be able to be issued a
building license.
Now, what we see today, the first two pages is his response. And
I asked him to write a response. And that's why he says, dear board
members.
And he can -- maybe that's why he's going to elaborate what he
did in the field. And if you take that as testimony, and then if you
want to go ahead and grant him a building license, that's the pleasure
of the licensing board.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why don't you take it from there and
kind of feed off this front page, because it's all names we recognize.
The only fallacy ( sic) I see is you don't stay one place very long.
MR. SNYDER: Well, I don't know -- I can't really give you
anything on that. I was -- those are '85 I was young, very young. I'm
39 now, so I started obviously in '85, where you can see what we did
there.
I moved around a lot, which is the reason for not staying. We
stayed in Boston for a couple years. That's where I met with Jack
Antaramian.
Of course back in Florida we've got Terraco, which is a big
company. I worked for them for quite a few years. We did a lot of
subcontracting for D. Garrett. Got to be real friendly with Don and all
the boys that run the show, Buddy and such. So I did work for them
for a while as -- I got -- well, as kind of an in-house carpenter for
them, metal framer. And all those guys say I was the best framer in
town. I mean, I'm very meticulous. Everything is -- if it's not right, I
don't leave it, that type of thing. So they wanted me to join the band,
so we did that for a year, and then it kind of worked its way up to
being a superintendent for D. Garrett.
Of course before D. Garrett was Russell Budd, Rex Budd with
Wall Systems. And you got to take for -- I mean, I was young at that
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October 15, 2008
point, so I was -- they're not going to give me a big lead position as a
25, 22-year-old guy. I was still one of their head framers,
orchestrators, layout people. I have a lot of experience with tons of
commercial work.
The reason I have those letters from the three companies, Smith
and DeShields, Dakota Homes and Florida Coast was since I had
passed the test -- you know, I'm assuming that I've got the test passed.
You know, I went to the -- basically the most convenient places for
me to get these letters so I could get this moved along a little bit
quicker. And naturally those three entities were the most easily
accessible to have it done right away.
I could go to D. Garrett, I could go to -- I can't go to Wall
Systems, obviously, to get any kind of letters. I could go to Terraco. I
could go to all those people that I listed and get letters of experience to
kind of show you where I'm at at this point.
But at this point in my life -- I'd say the reason this started, I just
moved to Marco last year in '07. It states that in my letter. Apparently
Marco will not let me work with this cabinet install license on the
Island without -- under general contractor.
Like I said, I went down and registered my license -- my
business, and they wouldn't do it. She said that my license is basically
invalid on Marco Island. I was shocked to hear that.
So I've been working for, you know, four, five years with this
cabinet license with no -- with no problems. I've been renewing it year
after year. As soon as I moved down there, they kind of pulled the rug
out from under me. So this is my reasoning.
MR. JOSLIN: What kind of work are you trying to do with that
license?
MR. SNYDER: Whatever it specifies. Cabinetry, I do kitchens,
remodel cabinets, crown molding, trim, doors, paint. You know, I do
things that I can do. Until I went down to register.
MR. OSSORIO: Well, you don't actually register. You're
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October 15, 2008
misinterpreting.
Board members, we have three jurisdictions here for building
review and permitting. We have Bob Dunn, we have Paul Bollenback
and we have Bob Mahar in the -- and all three of those individuals
have different opinions about commercial buildings.
And you're absolutely right, if you're a cabinetmaker or a cabinet
installer, you can install cabinets in single-family homes and
commercial buildings and in high-rises.
Where the catch with the City of Marco has an issue is that they
want a building permit, anything in a high-rise. Because when you
take the cabinets off, you're taking the fire-rated walls off or fire --
you know, the drywall off, and they want an inspection. And you have
-- and they consider that structural.
So yes, the general contractor gets the contract, he hires the
cabinet installer, and the cabinet installer does the work. And that's
how it's done.
So he doesn't have to register with Marco Island. He has a
Collier County, City of Naples and Marco Island cabinet license.
Unfortunately if you want to put cabinets in high-rises, you have to be
a general contractor because it's considered structural and they want to
-- you have to get some engineering and some drawings and go
through fire.
So yeah, Marco Island's a little more strict than the City of
Naples. And maybe Bob Dunn is not as strict as Bob Mahar, but we
all have to work together, and unfortunately that's the way it is in
Marco Island.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, let me -- I'm going to kind of
take control here for a minute, because we're rambling.
We can all read what you've got here and we can all read the
references you've got, but when you come before this board, you open
up everything.
What I have more of a problem with is your credit.
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October 15, 2008
MR. SNYDER: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's just not good.
MR. SNYDER: Well, I know it's not good.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you want us to turn you loose on
Collier County residents.
MR. SNYDER: No, that's not -- I mean, most of that credit issue
is from teenage years.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Stay closer to that mic. and talk.
MR. SNYDER: I can't get much closer.
Teenage years. I was 19, 20 years old when those credit issues
came about. Naturally I've made bad decisions.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I've got a bankruptcy three years
ago.
MR. SNYDER: That's three years ago, because I was so buried
in all that from the years prior. I couldn't deal with it, so I decided to
go ahead and with this bankruptcy, which has now been underway for
about two years, couple of years.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I got a credit score of 599 and alerts
all over this credit report. It says, serious delinquencies and public
records.
MR. SNYDER: I know that. I'm aware of all that. That's why I'm
trying to get this squared away. I mean, I've got the bankruptcy, I've
got a payment plan that I'm paying them off regularly. Actually, I'm
trying to sell some of my things to get this squared away right away.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. See, where I stand, I don't have
a problem with your experience. I would have gone for that in a
heartbeat. But I can't let this credit go.
MR. SNYDER: Well, I've got -- you can see -- I know that the
balance on my bankruptcy is a certain amount, which is really not a lot
of money that I owe them to pay it off. It doesn't show any of that in
there. It's not much over $5,000 that I owe to complete the entire
bankruptcy, to be freed of it.
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October 15, 2008
And I've got -- it's kind of not very -- I've got a guy right
tomorrow he's going to buy my boat which is going to wash this out.
I'm selling it, he's coming to pick it up, I'm going to send it right to
him and I'll be cleared.
So the bankruptcy will be satisfied. Obviously it won't be
cleared from my account for a few more years, but I should be -- you
know, I should be wide open by the end of the month, I'm hoping.
MR. L YKOS: Mr. Snyder, the concern that I have is when you
become a contractor that has the ability to hire subcontractors, you
take on a tremendous financial responsibility. And when you have
outstanding debts, and there's even a comment in your credit report
about some of the debts are -- delinquencies are too recent to even
make a judgment on.
The concern is that when you have the stress of debt and you
now are given the opportunity to manage finances for other
companies, which is what happens when you get this kind of a license,
that you'd be put in a position where you have to make bad financial
decisions, and that's when you affect other businesses and you affect
individual homeowners. And there's a concern in granting you that
ability, because it could make your life more difficult instead of
making it better.
MR. SNYDER: Well, that's -- this is why I'm here. I mean, this
is why I'm trying to overcome all of that.
I mean, if you could see in the credit report the Ford, for
instance, the Ford has been satisfied. That was seven, $8,000 debt. It's
recently been paid off two months ago. It's completely paid off. So
that was a huge part of that monies owed.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But see, we don't have any
documentation on that.
MR. SNYDER: You don't have that on the --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you can't overcome this credit in
this room.
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October 15, 2008
MR. SNYDER: I know that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You need to go do some work and
come back.
MR. JERULLE: I have a question also.
In addition to the concerns that Mr. Dickson and Mr. Lykos has,
Mr. Ossorio, the license that he's requesting, that would allow him to
build a building up to three stories?
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct.
MR. JERULLE: I don't see that experience here.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's true.
MR. JERULLE: I see with the experience with the drywall and
the cabinets and finish work, which is very good experience, don't get
me wrong, but to build a -- to give him a license to actually build a
building up to three stories, I just don't see that experience.
Maybe you have it, I don't know. I'm just saying in the packet
that I have in front of me, I don't see that experience.
MR. SNYDER: I can tell you that I've never built one. I don't
have the -- I can't tell you that -- you can't have experience unless you
actually do it, as far as I'm concerned. Or you take the classes. It takes
schooling to do this.
The reasoning for this application is not for me to build a three
story building. The reasoning behind it is for me to pull permits and
work on Marco Island like just like I have been doing. I don't plan on
changing my criteria of work. It's going to be remodeling, kitchens,
crown molding. That's my field. That's where I'm at.
I have no intention of building a house, let alone a three-story
building.
MR. JERULLE: Yeah, but we have no control of that after we
issue you a permit.
MR. SNYDER: I understand that.
MR. JERULLE: Excuse me, a license.
MR. SNYDER: I mean, where do I go? I mean, I've taken the
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October 15,2008
test, I've passed the county test. I've passed it, which shows some
experience of knowledge of passing the test.
I've got 20 books that I paid $1,000, I've studied them through
and through. I mean, to me that's schooling. I mean, that's months of
studying to pass the test.
I mean, like I said, I don't want to build a building, I just want to
be able to work.
MR. JERULLE: Like I said, the information that's been
presented to me currently does not give me any confidence to give you
a license to build a building up to three stories. And like I said, you
may have it, but I just don't see that here.
MR. SNYDER: I mean, is --
MR. JERULLE: In addition to the credit concerns.
MR. SNYDER: Is there any other -- is there a license that would
require me to pull permits other than this registered building
contractor? I mean, I just need to be able to continue working on
Marco Island, period. I mean --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio?
MR. SNYDER: -- they won't let me pull permits, they won't let
me work.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, okay.
Mr. Ossorio?
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Snyder's got to realize that he keeps
mentioning remodeling cabinets or kitchens. That's not what his
license is for.
Your license is a cabinet installer. That means you take cabinets
out, you put them in. You don't rearrange the plumbing, you don't
coordinate with the homeowner, you don't hire the electrician, you
don't remodel the kitchen. The only thing you're allowed to do is put
base boards in, trim and put cabinets in, box of cabinets in. Go to
Home Depot, pick them up and put them in. That's basically what that
is.
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October 15, 2008
And unfortunately the City of Marco, like I said before, is that
they require a building permit because they want to do an inspection
because of the fire wall. Well, that's not what a cabinetmaker does.
What we can do, and I'll go ahead and I'll try to move this along,
is that I will have a meeting with Mr. Snyder and we'll go over it.
And if he gets his credit in order in the next couple of months,
what I can do is we can come back to the board and we can maybe
come to an agreement that maybe we can restrict his license, which we
do have the -- I have the ability to do, to restrict it to only remodeling,
no -- you know, whatever you feel comfortable with.
MR. L YKOS: Be careful.
MR. OSSORIO: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN : Yeah, because you'd still be -- the electrical,
plumbing and whatever to remodel a kitchen or whatever.
MR. OSSORIO: You're absolutely right.
MR. JOSLIN: And I don't see any credentials. Like Mr. Jerulle
said, I don't see any credentials that says he's qualified to do that.
MR. OSSORIO: No, but he does have a list here of people that
we all know and respect. So maybe it's better for him to go back and
get the actual affidavits notarized so that we can actually take that and
put it in the application.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And then he's got a second hurdle.
This credit report will not get by me. I'm only one person on the
board, but the credit is not acceptable. I would vote it down right now
the way the credit is.
MR. JOSLIN: He did express, though, that he thought maybe if
it's a $5,000 amount that's due now to pay it off, that maybe ifhe
comes back in another month or two months or whatever and gets the
credentials and he gets this credit paid off, that maybe we would look
at it with a different point of view.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: True. But you've got two things
you've got to work on.
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October 15, 2008
MR. SNYDER: Okay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay? I need to handle this as it
stands here today, since it came before the board, so I need a motion.
MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion to deny.
MR. L YKOS: Second, Lykos.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. L YKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
(N 0 response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go clean it up. Meet with Mr. Ossorio
and try again.
MR. SNYDER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir.
MR. OSSORIO: And Mr. Snyder, just stop by tomorrow
morning and then we'll go over it and then we'll get you back in front
of the board.
MR. SNYDER: Thanks a lot. Thanks for your time.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Dunn, would you like to address
the board for any reason? Since we have the head cheese present. I
won't even make you be sworn in.
MR. JOSLIN: And we're ready for you now.
MR. DUNN: For the record, Bob Dunn, building director of
Collier County Building Department.
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October 15, 2008
I just wanted to stop in and say hi, and some new members, and
introduce myself to the new members and thank you for all the hard
work. Our guys do a great job, and they had the yearly report ready
for you. If you have any questions, that's why I'm here.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm glad that your acting was made
permanent.
MR. DUNN: Yes, thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're all thrilled to have you here.
MR. DUNN: Thank you.
MR. OSSORIO: I do have one question, since Bob's up on the
stand. I know that Bob has talked to DSAC, which is the -- I guess it's
a community development advisory board committee, and they -- and
the CBIA with Bill Varian has requested Bob and myself to sit down
and see if it's in the budget for this year or next year to maybe look at
getting another position filled out there in the field. Because I know
that there was some issues concerning unlicensed activity, Workers
Compo issues.
And so I know that Bob put that on my task and I know he put
that on his calendar to review, so hopefully we have some good news.
MR. L YKOS: Good. I was going to inquire about that, since I
had both of you in the same room.
MR. DUNN: I knew you were.
MR. L YKOS: Yeah. We have -- you know, we get a lot -- we're
in the process of interviewing board candidates for CBIA for next
year, and there were a lot of complaints about a lot of unlicensed
activity.
And I try to defend what we do up here, but, you know,
perception's reality. And a lot of people think that we're not doing
enough. There's a lot going on that -- and in times like these, if the
legitimate people don't think there's enough going on, then that means
there's no fear for the people that are doing things illegally. And we
need to make sure that people are afraid to operate illegally, or without
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October 15, 2008
Workmen's Compensation, without licenses. We need to make sure
that we do that. We need to protect the people who are doing it right.
MR. DUNN: You know that's my priority. And we've met
before. I think the last time I stopped in, we talked about contractor
licensing and staffing.
It's on our agenda now. We're looking at it with our
administrator, and we're going to make a recommendation back to
DSAC committee.
MR. L YKOS: Great.
MR. DUNN: Anything else?
(No response.)
MR. DUNN: It was nice seeing you guys again.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good to see you always. Thanks for
comIng In.
MR. L YKOS: Thanks, Bob.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have anything? Mr.
Neale, Mr. Zachary?
MR. NEALE: No.
MR. ZACHARY: Nothing.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio?
MR. OSSORIO: I have one housekeeping matter.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir.
MR. OSSORIO: As you see on the agenda, it says next meeting
would be November 19th, 2008. I would like to see us not have a
meeting in November, due to Thanksgiving, and have one in
December. That's up to the board's pleasure.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't have a problem with that.
MR. L YKOS: What about the other way around?
MR. JOSLIN: So we're going to sacrifice Thanksgiving for
Christmas?
MR. OSSORIO: Well, the only reason why I think we should
have it in December is that due to the fact that I know that you made a
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October 15,2008
policy and a procedure referencing choosing a new chairman in
December. So that stuck out that okay, we won't have one in
November, but we'll have one in December.
And December, it's close to Christmas, but it's not that close. I
don't think it's -- it's in between.
MR. L YKOS: What's the date in December; do we know?
MR. OSSORIO: What's the date in December for the meeting?
I'll let Pat Neale know that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you know how to work your
telephone, you can go to your calendar.
MR. OSSORIO: What's the date for December meeting?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Here comes the telephone wiz.
MR. L YKOS: 17th?
MR. JERULLE: 17th.
MR. NEALE: That should be it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's cool. That's two weeks before.
MR. OSSORIO: That's what my plan was, to have a meeting in
December and elect a new chairman for the upcoming '09.
MR. NEALE: Yes, 17th.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If --let's just leave it if business
allows or activity allows it, we can skip November, we'll do it.
MR. ZACHARY: Question: Will the meeting be here or --
MR. NEALE: We've got to be here for the rest of the year.
MR. OSSORIO: We have the meeting here for the next two
months. So if we don't have one in November, it's going to be here at
10:30 in December.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 10:30, 10:30, 10:30.
MR. OSSORIO: Not 9:00.
MR. L YKOS: Before we go, I would be remiss if I didn't also
say that during our interviews with board members of CBIA, to a
person they've talked about what a great job that Mr. Dunn has done
and how well things are going down here.
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October 15, 2008
MR. DUNN: Thank you very much.
MR. L YKOS: Yes, sir, appreciate it very much.
MR. DUNN: I have a great staff.
MR. L YKOS: Yes, you do.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I have to tell you this. You
remember New Code Windows and Doors? They didn't miss a beat.
We didn't shut them down for one day.
MR. NEALE: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because they had a second qualifier.
MR. NEALE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And he was moved up to primary
qualifier the very next day.
MR. GUITE': That's what I figured. Next job I went on, they
were on that job.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I don't know if I should go any
further on that, should I, Mr. Ossorio?
MR. OSSORIO: No, that's good enough.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I'll keep that one other bit to
myself.
But, yeah, it didn't stop them. But that is the beauty of a second
qualifier if something happens. It's supposed to be that if you die or
get sick that you can continue the company. But he was prepared and
ready to go. So hopefully he learned a lesson, I don't know. We never
saw the owner.
Do I hear a motion to adjourn?
MR. L YKOS: So moved, Lykos.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. GUITE': Aye.
MR. JERULLE: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
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October 15, 2008
MR. L YKOS: Aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
*****
There being no further business for the good of the County, the
meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 12:25 p.m.
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR
LICENSING BOARD
LES DICKSON, Chairman
These minutes approved by the Board on
as presented or as corrected
,
Transcript prepared on behalf of Gregory Reporting Service, Inc., by
Cherie' R. Nottingham.
Page 65