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CLB Minutes 09/17/2008 R September 17, 2008 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida September 17, 2008 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractor Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson Richard Joslin Eric Guite' Lee Horn Terry J erulle Thomas Lykos Michael Boyd Glenn Herriman ALSO PRESENT: Patrick Neale, Attorney for the CLB Robert Zachary, Assistant County Attorney Michael Ossorio, Zoning & Land Development Review Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: WEDNESDAY - SEPTEMBER 17, 2008 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: AUGUST 20, 2008 V. DISCUSSION: Jeffrey K. Linzer - Representative from Home Depot, addressing the board about Contracting. VI. NEW BUSINESS: Gregory S. Brown - Contesting Citation Bern Michael Kahle - Contesting Citation Michael Zeanchock III - Request to qualify 2nd entity VII. OLD BUSINESS: VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS: Case #2008-11 Case #2008-13 Case #2008-14 IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: Paul Riddleberger D/B/A Riddleberger Custom Homes, LLC Michael McNeal D/B/A New Code Windows and Doors, Inc. Daman Sharp D/B/A Sharp Pools and Decking, Inc. WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 15, 2008 COLLIER COUNTY DEVELOPMENT SERVICES CENTER 2800 N. HORSESHOE DRIVE, ROOM 609 - 610 NAPLES, FL 34104 September 17, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board for September 17th, 2008. Anyone who would like to make an appeal for a decision from this board needs to have a verbatim record of the proceedings, which is being taken. At this time, I'd like to have roll call, starting at my right. MR. JERULLE: Terry Jerulle. MR. HERRIMAN: Glenn Herriman. MR. L YKOS: Tom Lykos. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MR. HORN: Lee Horn. MR. GUITE': Eric Guite'. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any additions or deletions to the agenda? Andy? (Sic.) MR. JOSLIN: Ian. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ian. MR. JACKSON: For the record-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've got to quit doing that. MR. JACKSON: -- Ian Jackson, License Compliance Officer for Collier County. Staff has an addition in new business, Randy Anderson, to reinstate a canceled Collier County certificate. And the other addition would be after the public hearings, Sergio Gonzalez from Department of Business and Professional Regulation. And that's all for staff. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is Sergio here? Not yet. MR. JACKSON: Not yet. MR. OSSORIO: He's right there. You're looking right at him. MR. JACKSON: There we go. Page 2 September 17, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have an addition. In discussion, Chairmanship and Vice-Chairmanship of this board. Anyone else have any additions or deletions? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Entertain a motion to accept the agenda as amended. MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. MR. GUITE': Second, Guite'. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. So done. Your minutes from last meeting, assuming you've had a chance to look at them. I need a motion to either amend those or approve them as written. (Mr. Boyd enters the boardroom.) MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that we accept the minutes as written. I didn't find any real errors in it. MR. L YKOS: Second, Lykos. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. LYKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. Page 3 September 17, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Let the record reflect Mr. Boyd did come in. Good morning, sir. MR. BOYD: Morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Right off, discussion. Jeffrey Linzer, are you here? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, then we'll move on. Chairmanship. The discussion I wanted to have, having been on this committee for 20 years and Chairmanship for five years, I don't think it is conducive to the committee or the continuity of the committee to just automatically have the Chairmanship sit until he dies or he's replaced. That happens on other boards, but I don't think it's good for a board. Whereas our county commission doesn't do that, I don't think this board should do it either. So therefore, last week I proposed that since I have just been appointed to a new three-year term that we discuss procedures for, which we don't have, procedures for Chairmanship and Vice-Chairmanship on this board. And I asked the committee members to think about it and come up with some ideas that we could enter into as a motion and make it a part of -- what would I call it? Could we make that a part for all future people, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: You could create a procedure to follow for replacement of the Chairman. Because the ordinance does provide for the election of the Chair and Vice-Chair on a periodic basis, so you could provide that as in your procedure that every year or whatever you can elect a new Chair. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So what are your ideas? What did you come up with? Go ahead. MR. L YKOS: Well, my idea was that our current Chair, Mr. Dickson, serves through the end of the year, and at our December Page 4 September 17, 2008 meeting we elect a new Chair and Vice-Chair, with the leadership succession, Vice-Chair becomes Chair. Then every December we would elect a new Vice-Chair. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: To take effect January 1st-- MR. L YKOS: At the first meeting of the year in January. And also, that once a Chair -- once a Chair's term ended, that that Chair could not -- had to take a year off before becoming Vice-Chair again. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And Vice-Chair would automatically become Chair the succeeding year? MR. L YKOS: Correct. MR. JOSLIN: You would always have someone then actually that would be -- in a sense had the experience or the training or the knowledge to know how to carry on the procedures with that one year on the board, or however many years they've been on the board, which would put them in the Chair, which would make sense. The only question I have for Mr. Dickson is if he's willing to continue until January. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: After 20 years, that's not very long. MR. JOSLIN: Then the next question is if the board members want him to continue on the board until January. No, I'm only kidding. It would be a pleasure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How do you all feel about that? MR. GUITE': Makes sense to me. MR. HERRIMAN: Good idea. MR. HORN: I like it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I think every one of you would be fantastic as a Chair. And if we do that rotation, then we really have -- I mean, everybody's just -- I mean, they're cutting edge, instead of -- I mean, some board members now are getting appointed for life. I don't want that happening here. But that has happened in other places. So can we put that in the form of amotion? Did you get that to Page 5 September 17, 2008 where we could? Do you all want to add anything to it? MR. JERULLE: You know, I'm -- being new to the board, I'm asking you with your experience, is one year long enough? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, and especially if you go Vice-Chair first. Because then every one of us can serve as a board Chair. And it's not that much to it. You've got these two guys keeping you out of trouble and these two over here getting you in trouble. I'm just kidding. But -- and especially with the Vice-Chair, if you know that the very next year you're going to be Chairman, you're really kind of on your tiptoes to make sure you're ready to step in there. County Commission does this. And I see great continuity between year after year, you don't really need to know who the chairman is because they're all good at doing it. MR. JOSLIN: I think also it would work, Terry, because they -- I mean, there is a possibility that maybe there will be members on the board that may not want to be Chair. In that case then when the motions come up to elect or renominate another Chairman, that he can decline, knowing that he doesn't want that position. So it leaves a kind of an open door all the way around. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We discussed issues like you might be Vice-Chair in the last year of your appointment, but that would just mean that we would try to get you appointed for another term so you can move into the Chairmanship. And of course there's going to be people that leave. We've gone through that in the last year. So periodically we'll be electing new Vice-Chairs, because they'll move up. Okay, are we good for a motion on that? You got it? You got all your high points? MR. L YKOS: I make a motion that we adopt the leadership Page 6 September 17, 2008 policy that I spelled out earlier, so I don't have to say it again. MR. JOSLIN: And I'll second the motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are we okay with that, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I have a second. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So I do have three more months, which I will gladly serve. Moving on. Mr. Linzer hasn't come in. If he does, we'll go back. New business. Gregory Brown, are you present? MS. EGAN: I'm here representing Mr. Brown. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. If you would, come up to the podium, please. I'll have you state your name and have you sworn in, first. MS. EGAN: My name is Amanda Egan, E-G-A-N. (Speakers were duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: First state, if you would, your relationship or why you're representing Mr. Brown. MS. EGAN: I'm the corporate -- I'm the person at the office who maintains the corporate records and also files for licensing and handles all the administrative end of the business. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, is that acceptable? I don't Page 7 September 17, 2008 have the license holder here. MR. NEALE: Yeah, I mean, we don't have the license holder here. She's not an attorney. We don't have any Power of Attorney for her stating that she can represent him. I mean, we've got her testimony under oath, but I would -- I have to say I wouldn't feel real comfortable about her being the representative in a manner such like this where you're deciding whether to fine someone or whatever. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why wasn't Mr. Brown here today? MS. EGAN: They elected me to be the one, because I'm the one who handles all the recordkeeping and I'm the one who took care of the fixing of the items that were not in compliance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If it was my license, I would be here. MR. JOSLIN: I see the problem where we have a citation here that we have to act on. And the problem was the contesting of the violation that was given. And unfortunately we should be looking at the license holder, not someone who's a representative. MS. EGAN: I did kind of try yesterday. I was looking on-line. I searched all the records I could search to find out what an authorized representative was, and I could not locate that anywhere. I did attempt to clarify that I could be the one speaking on his behalf. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I move that we strike this from hearing it and we refuse to hear it. The fine is still due until at such time as the license holder decides he wants to come before this board. MR. HORN: Second, Horn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion? MR. JOSLIN: One other thing is if we go to the -- just in reviewing of this little packet sent in to us, there is quite a severe penalty for people that don't pay this fine within a period of time and don't -- if they requested a hearing and they're not here, this fine starts happening daily. Page 8 September 17, 2008 MS. EGAN : We're not -- it's not our intention to put off paying the fine. I didn't know that I could not be his representative. Because I'm the record holder -- I'm the corporate record holder. MR. JOSLIN: Well, unfortunately I look at it as that the actual license holder is not here. That's what we're looking at. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I think you could have made a simple phone call to answer that question. MS. EGAN: I spoke to Mr. Ossorio yesterday. I didn't-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you approve it, Mr. Ossorio? MR. OSSORIO: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. For the record, Michael Ossorio, Contractor Licensing Supervisor. I assumed that he was going to be here. I thought maybe there would be all parties here. I did not know you would only be by yourself. So I'm assuming that Mr. Brown was going to be present to give testimony. MR. L YKOS: Why wouldn't they both come? MR. OSSORIO: I can't speak to that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I can't deal with someone who is not a license holder. This is a licensing board. The motion remains that the fine is due until such time as the owner -- the license holder wants to come before this board. There has been a second. More discussion? MR. JOSLIN: One other discussion I have. If we go to that same page, I just realized something here that is red. Maybe it means something. I'm not sure, Mr. Neale, if you can kind of guide us on this. It says there clearly, if you or your designated representative show at an administrative hearing that the citation is invalid or the violation has been corrected prior to appearing, the board may dismiss the citation, unless the board finds the violation to be irreparable or irreversible. MS. EGAN: And that's what I read, and that's why I'm here today. Page 9 September 17, 2008 MR. NEALE: The problem is, we have nothing designating her other than her testimony as representative. MR. JOSLIN: Okay, say like a letter from the license holder or MR. NEALE: A letter from the license holder saying I hereby appoint her as my designated representative. MR. JOSLIN: Okay, just so we don't miss anything in the reading. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's a good point. Thank you. Mr. Guite'? MR. GUITE': That was my point. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, just for the record, the county would somewhat object to this, because unfortunately that Mr. Brown was present on the job site, so we would want to question him. So there would have to be some testimonial from Mr. Brown, due to the fact that he is requesting a hearing, so we would like to question him. MR. NEALE: And Mr. Ossorio makes a point. Because even though it says that if they do have a designated representative, that designated representative still has to show that the citation was invalid. So they have to put up evidence that the citation is invalid in order for you to find the citation invalid and void it. So Mr. Ossorio makes a good point, how would that be proven unless we had the person that was on the job. So I think the board is acting properly in this matter. MR. HERRIMAN: Do I read that this is a work compo violation? MR. JACKSON: That's correct. MR. HERRIMAN: I'm concerned if we put it off that he's walking around without any workers' compensation insurance. MS. EGAN: The problem's been corrected. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, the fine is still due. And hi, Mr. Garcia? Page 10 September 17, 2008 MR. GONZALEZ: Gonzalez. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The state is -- Gonzalez, I'm sorry. The state is sitting here. So I'm assuming it has been corrected. I have a motion, I have a second. Any more discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tell him to pay the fine; come see us later if he wants. The fine is due. Thank you, you're free to go. MS. EGAN: Thank you. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I think there's -- Jeffrey K. Linzer is here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Linzer, come on up. You had some discussion you wanted to address the board about contracting? You represent Home Depot? MR. LINZER: Yes, sir. My name's Jeff Linzer with Home Depot. I'm the plumbing qualifier. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And who is with you? MR. CASCARDO: My name is Juan Cascardo. I'm also with the Home Depot. I'm also a qualifier for the Home Depot. Besides that, we also have Jeff Linzer -- I mean Jeff Masterson. He's a qualifier for electrical. And Ms. Raquel Swanner, which is the qualifier for the Page 11 September 17, 2008 general contracting side of the Home Depot. I qualify the HV AC. MR. LINZER: And I'm the plumbing qualifier for the State of Florida for the Home Depot. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, and your purpose coming before the board? MR. CASCARDO: We're just basically here to introduce ourselves, just to let the board know that there are people in the Home Depot that care about compliance issues, about licensing issues. We're here on a good -- as far as good faith basis just to let you know about our job, that we are proactive as far as hiring licensing (sic) contractors, subcontractors. That we also believe highly in pulling permits. And that basically we have a compliance division, that basically they -- their job is to make sure that our contractors -- our subcontractors are pulling permits. So that's basically why we're here. We just want to introduce ourselves. We also want to let the board know that, you know, we have people throughout the state that are looking -- enforcing the rules and regulations of the Home Depot. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you are requesting copies of licenses from your subs and verification of workers' compo insurance? MR. CASCARDO: We have a complete department that we regulate, make sure that each one of our subs has active licenses, workers' compo insurance, liability insurance, and they have to maintain this active. We use it through a website that we have and a separate company called Choice Point, just to make sure. And by the way, that company also does background checks to make sure that these service providers don't have any kind of felony or criminal records in going into the customers' homes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd say you finally got -- or that you got it right. That's wonderful. Page 12 September 17, 2008 MR. CASCARDO: We're still trying. I mean, it's still a work in progress. But part of our job is not only to enforce that but also to present ourselves in front of the board. If you have any issues or complaints, we're the people that you want to talk to. We all have business cards. We'd like to drop them off. If you have any kind of issues or complaints in the near future with the Home Depot, we're here to help. We're here to make sure that we do it right, so that's why we're here in front of this board today. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, the guys that might want your cards, they're the ones if there's a complaint. MR. CASCARDO: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Us up here are your competitors. MR. LINZER: We understand that. That's why we wanted to know if there were any questions right now that we can answer, you know, if anybody had any individual questions that we could answer at the moment also. MR. JOSLIN: I have just one: Is that the Home Depot sells a sundry of products, some of which need permits, some of which don't. Do you have qualifiers that are going to be painting contractors or people that are going to permit whatever has to be done for every phase of anything that you sell to a customer you're going to subcontract to? That's what you're going to do? MR. LINZER: Absolutely. MR. CASCARDO: That's why our compliance seems in place. We want to make sure that we are pulling permits for anything and everything that is required. MR. JOSLIN: And you are aware that the Collier County in some instances requires permits and the City of Naples also requires some other permits that you maybe don't have to get through Collier County. MR. LINZER: Correct. Yeah, we're familiar with all the jurisdictions -- Page 13 September 17, 2008 MR. JOSLIN: All the jurisdictions -- MR. LINZER: -- that work in the state, yes. MR. GUITE': I'm one of the service providers, so I know what these guys are saying. And they do, they make me do a lot of paperwork just to -- it's almost redundant, but it is good. MR. CASCARDO: What is the service provider? Who are you with? MR. GUITE': I do the ceramic tile. MR. CASCARDO: Ceramic tile, okay. MR. GUITE': Yeah, out of the Expo. I work from the Expo. MR. CASCARDO: All right. Well, he could testify to our -- basically our stringent requirements that we have for the service providers. And they're getting more stringent, by the way. MR. L YKOS: Michael, I have a question, and it might apply to -- I don't know if it has to do with DBPR or local ordinance. Best of my recollection, the qualifier is responsible for supervision of the projects. Is Home Depot -- are there systems in place so that your qualifiers are supervising the work that you hire out? MR. CASCARDO: Well, basically what we have, besides ourselves, which we do go out on job sites, we also have what's called DSM's, which are District Services Managers. And these people are trained to go out and also supervise. So we do go out. We have -- as far as DSM's in the State of Florida, we have I believe somewhere in the neighborhood of maybe about 50 to 100 of these DSM's. I don't quite know the exact figure but -- and they're based in different districts throughout the state. And they help us in this task of supervising. And ifit needs to be escalated, obviously we can jump on a plane and go anywhere we have to go within the state. So we're going to leave these cards for you. Should I leave them with this gentleman over there? Page 14 September 17, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm glad -- personally, I'm glad you came by. Because I don't know if you know our history, but we've had some problems. Not with -- I'm not mentioning Home Depot, but some of your competitors -- MR. LINZER: Absolutely. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- that were contracting jobs and putting it on revolving charges. So I'm glad you guys finally got it right. There is a marketplace for you. And you're really not taking my customers. What you're taking is the people that would go to the unlicensed contractor. MR. LINZER: I'd also like to let you know, we're also members of BOAF, which is the Building Officials Association of Florida, and CLOAF, which is the Contractors Licensing Officials. And we attend all the meetings. We're, you know, very involved with all the different organizations and associations. We go to -- constantly at meetings and updating ourselves on all the new standards, anything that comes in. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is this a statewide effort, not just store by store? MR. LINZER: Statewide. MR. CASCARDO: Nationally, actually. MR. LINZER: Nationally. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All stores are involved? MR. LINZER: Correct. Expo included. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And are you doing everything for all the products you sell? MR. LINZER: Anything that needs permitting, yes, sir. Licensing, yeah. We're a compliance team. MR. L YKOS: On a different subject, I'd like to see you have a representative at the Collier Building Industry Association. If you would consider joining that, I think it would be great for you and great for our local industry as well. So if I get one of your cards, I'll make sure you get and Page 15 September 17, 2008 application. MR. CASCARDO: Okay. Yeah, through e-mail. Our cards have e-mail addresses, probably the best way to reach us. MR. MASTERSON: And cell phone numbers. So call us or e-mail us anytime. MR. L YKOS: Thank you. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, just a little footnote: Home Depot has done a great job in the last six months. There's been a time that Home Depot was not a good steward. Couple years ago we had many complaints. So they've really dropped off. And we've been communicating with the Atlanta office, I believe that's where your home base is at? MR. LINZER: Yes. MR. OSSORIO: And we have got good results from Atlanta. And I think it's finally about time that Home Depot stood up, and maybe it's about time that Lowe's comes in and talks to you as well, see what they're doing. It's somewhat difficult to find a qualifier of a huge corporation of that size. And it's good that we have these business cards and now we know who to call without making four or five phone calls. So it's good news. MR. LINZER: We've been going around to almost -- we've been setting up meetings with most of the counties. We're now pretty much done with this area and the central area. Now we're going up to the Panhandle. We want to hit every county to let them know what we've got in place right now. MR. JOSLIN: I just have one last question. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Get on the mic., please. MR. JOSLIN: Are the contractors or the license holders for all the different phases that you're doing that require permits, are these actually employees of Home Depot? MR. LINZER: Yes. Page 16 September 17, 2008 MR. JOSLIN: They are. Under payroll, and you're paid by Home Depot? MR. CASCARDO: Yeah, we're all work (sic) for the Home Depot. It's not like we are renting out our license. We have actually turned the license over and we are part of the Home Depot team. So we're not subcontracted by the Home Depot. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I wish you well, gentlemen, thank you. MR. LINZER: Thank you. Have a good day. MR. CASCARDO: Appreciate it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: As we start moving through the Chairmanship, it's important to keep them on that microphone. You wouldn't believe the TV audience that's watching. And the TV can't hear if they're not on the microphone. Next one up, Berne Michael Kahle. (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Not here? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chair, Mr. Kahle was on the last agenda. He called at the last minute and said he couldn't make it. He wanted to be put on this next agenda, which is today. Obviously he is not present. Due to the fact that he's requested a hearing, I think we should at least hear testimony to the fact of what occurred out there and have a finding. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He doesn't have a license. MR. OSSORIO: No license, no. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No license. What's the discussion? MR. OSSORIO: Well, in the past we have gone -- in the past we've -- somebody has requested a hearing and not shown up and we've actually -- the board has heard testimony of what really happened out there, due to the fact that he requested a hearing. I just don't want to see Mr. Kahle come back in my office next Page 1 7 September 17, 2008 month and say, oh, I'm sorry, I missed it, I want to go again. This is not like a revolving door. You have 10 days to contest it. He had some circumstances last month that he could not attend. We granted him permission to go speak at this board this month. So I just want to make sure that this is the end of the road here. MR. JOSLIN: Has he paid the fine? MR. OSSORIO: No. MR. NEALE: And the board in the past has taken this type of action where someone has contested a citation, been given proper notice, hasn't shown up. The board has in the past determined that the citation was valid and kept it in place. Because really, the action of the board and citation is really to determine whether they are valid or invalid. That really is this whole action the board takes. If the citation's valid, then the board upholds the citation and it gets put in place. If they do not pay the fine in a certain period of time, then the county does have the option of filing a lien on their real and personal property with the courts, so -- with the clerk of court, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Kahle, (sic) if you would, state your name and I'll have you sworn in real quick. MR. GANGULI: I'm not the respondent, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, I know you're not, but I need that -- I'm going to get testimony from you. (Speaker was duly sworn.) MR. GANGULI: Rob Ganguli. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm sorry, I was looking at the wrong one. MR. GANGULI: G-A-N-G-U-L-I. Good morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where did you find him? MR. GANGULI: The address, sir? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 15th Avenue Southwest? MR. GANGULI: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What was he doing? Page 18 September 17, 2008 MR. GANGULI: Well, I have a little narrative if I can -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sure, go ahead. MR. GANGULI: The circumstances regarding the issuance of Citation 4104 as follows. On July 8th, 2008 I made a field observation at the address 4441 15th Avenue Southwest in Golden Gate Estates of posted Building Permit No. 2008010178, issued for a detached framed two-story playroom and garage. Issued to owner/builder Kenneth Keller, with no contractor information listed. Upon inspection of the job site, I observed Mr. Berne Michael Kahle performing PVC plumbing work. And when I asked him, he also stated he was working on the framed carpentry of the structure. When I inquired about his licensing information, he was unable to provide any and stated he was working for the homeowner, Mr. Keller. Upon further investigation I discovered that Mr. Keller was not present anywhere on the job site. And the three circumstances: Based on the scope of the work I observed being done, the absence of the owner-builder on the job site and the criteria specified in the disclosure statement of State Statute 489, Section 103 regarding owner/builder permits, I issued a $300 citation to Mr. Kahle for acting in the capacity of a contractor without being duly registered or certified. MR. JOSLIN: Just a quick question for your -- just for the record. You mentioned he did PVC plumbing. What type of plumbing was he doing? Where you able to -- MR. GANGULI: Well, he was filthy dirty and it was underground. MR. JOSLIN: Underground. MR. GANGULI: As far as the specifics of it, I'm sorry, Mr. Joslin, I can't tell you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good, he's getting into the potable Page 19 September 17, 2008 system. MR. JOSLIN: Obviously. Could it have been a water system, I mean in your opinion? MR. GANGULI: I wish there was some validity to my opinion. My best guess would be that it was some type of irrigation, perhaps. MR. JOSLIN: Irrigation. MR. L YKOS: Well, I don't like an unlicensed contractor building a two-story structure unsupervised and unlicensed. So I make a motion that the citation stands. MR. JOSLIN: I'll second the motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? MR. BOYD: I have a question. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. BOYD: Was the job site red tagged? Because this is an owner/builder permit. Shouldn't the owner/builder hold some responsibility also? MR. GANGULI: Well, it's my understanding that the owner of the property, when there's an owner/builder permit, may not have any responsibilities other than what's stated in the disclosure statement of him being -- or providing on-site supervision on the job site. As far as recourse taken on the owner/builder, Mr. Ossorio? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I might want to add some testimony. Can I get sworn in, please. (Speaker was duly sworn.) MR. OSSORIO: Morning. For the record, Mike Ossorio, Contractor Licensing Supervisor. Under the Collier County Ordinance 2006-21, it clearly states if you're unlicensed, there is a red tag that we issue. There was a red tag issued on the property, and we issue many red tags on any unlicensed activity job sites. Typically what happens, the homeowner comes in, owner/builder permit. This is no exception, the owner did stop by my Page 20 September 17, 2008 office and elected to go ahead and not have this particular person, Mr. Kahle, back on the property. So when Mr. Kahle was not on the property anymore and the homeowner is under advisement, what he needs to do as an owner/builder, the red tag has been removed. So that is what typically happens on any kind of job site, no matter if it's owner/builder permit or a permitted site by a contractor. MR. GUITE': Was he contracting with the homeowner to do this work, or was the homeowner paying his wages and taking out taxes? MR. OSSORIO: As far as my recollection, the investigator was on the job site, asked who he was working for, he said he was working for the homeowner. We're assuming that's what that means. MR. GANGULI: The specifics of taking out taxes, Mr. Guite', I didn't ask. He did state that he was working for the homeowner. MR. GUITE': I was just reading the disclosure statement here in your packet. The packet is saying that any person working on your building who is not licensed must work under the direct supervision and must be employed by you, which means that you must deduct FICA and withholding tax and provide Workmen's Compo for that employee. It almost seems to me that the person who is at fault here is the homeowner. MR. GANGULI: Well, I'm thinking that if he could substantiate having withheld all those things from the gentleman's paycheck, it would be a fairly easy thing to resolve, since he requested the hearing. MR. GUITE': Because it's my understanding that contracting without a license is you have to engage in a contract with the homeowner to do whatever, to do plumbing or do tile or paint or whatever. If he's just some guy passing through and this guy's paying him 10 bucks an hour to do some work, I mean, it's -- MR. OSSORIO: You're absolutely right, Mr. Guite'. We have Page 21 September 17, 2008 come across owner/builders who elect to go out and get help and pay them an hourly wage and also take out insurance. Doesn't happen that often due to the fact that a lot of insurance carriers and day labor really don't deal directly with owner/builders and owners. MR. GUITE': Right. MR. OSSORIO: I haven't seen that in my tenure here so -- but it can theoretically happen. On this particular case, I don't want to misspeak out of turn, but this owner was paying him something. There was no taxes taken out. So this is why the citation was brought to you. So with that said. MR. JOSLIN: One question I have, which goes back to the permitting factor, I think you're right, I think the owner has some responsibility, that's for sure. I think it's a double barrel shotgun here. But through the permitting process with Collier County, do they still require when a general contractor or an owner/builder contractor are going to have work performed that needs permitting, do they still require that there's a list of subcontractors that are given when they apply for the permit, or do they just -- did they take that away? MR. OSSORIO: No. When an owner/builder applies for a building permit, there is no Page 2, as per se. The owner could elect to do so if they wish to do so. In other words, it's not uncommon that an owner/builder lists his electrical and plumbing, mechanical contractor on the building permit itself. But it's not a requirement. The owner does sign a disclosure statement knowing that yeah, basically I'm an owner, I'm responsible, I must do all the work or hire a proper licensed contractor to do the work on my premise. And they also understand that they can't have a -- they can't sell it or lease it from 12 months ofC.O. The state does have a statute to civil infraction that if an owner/builder or an owner knowingly hires an unlicensed contractor, you know, there could be some civil penalties up to $5,000. But unfortunately I have never seen that done and it's pretty hard to justify Page 22 September 17, 2008 that he knowingly did so. So that's something that the state does do. They do work on. And maybe Sergio, Mr. Gonzalez, can talk to you a little bit about ifhe's seen that in his tenure as being with the State of Florida as well. MR. JOSLIN: I remember years ago that, you know, in order to get a permit from a GC, that they had to list that Page 2. And I don't think that -- a general contractor is maybe less apt to be prone to not do it. But as the owner/builder, I would think that the county or the City of Naples or any of these jurisdictions would want to have that Page 2 just to keep an owner/builder more or less under wraps. MR. OSSORIO: Well, we can. Because if you're asking an owner to provide a Page 2, and it's really false that the owner could theoretically do the work himself. The State is pretty clear, they really don't want to encumber -- they are -- owner/builders are exempt from the statute. You know, they can do all facets of their own home. And I know that Monroe County down south of us, you know, they've tried to restrict owner/builders, make sure they take some exams, make sure they take a class or two, and that's all been thrown out. Owner/builders are exempt. I would like to see an owner provide us with Page 2, electrical, plumbing, mechanical. Most of them do hire licensed companies, due to the fact that the owners really can't do the work themselves. But it's not a requirement. And if you put that restriction on them, somebody could challenge it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let's wrap this up. MR. NEALE: You've got a motion and a second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We've had a motion and a second. I mean, he's not even here. I've got lots of other stuff to do. Call for the vote. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. Page 23 September 17, 2008 MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're done. Tell him not to come back here unless he can produce a license. We don't really have any need to see him. Michael Zeanchock. Michael, if you'd come up to the front podium right here, sir. If I could have you state your name and spell it. MR. ZEANCHOCK: Michael Zeanchock, Z-E-A-N-C-H-O-C-K. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I'll have you sworn in, sir. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you're here to qualify a second entity? MR. ZEANCHOCK: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Tell us what you're doing and why. MR. ZEANCHOCK: First, to qualify a residential concrete construction company named Matrix Concrete. That company I'm partners with another person. We strictly do just residential. M&M Concrete, which I'm here to qualify to you today, is a commercial concrete company which I own. Our main office is in Pennsylvania. We wish to do some work in this area, commercial-wise. Matrix doesn't do any commercial work. M&M is geared up to do that type of work. So I'm here today to try to get them qualified to Page 24 September 17, 2008 get into the commercial concrete construction. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wow. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I just want to -- this is a unique situation. I want to explain it to you, because it took me a few minutes to figure this out as well. Matrix is a licensed company in Collier County. They've taken the test, they've taken the business procedure and they've taken their concrete form and placing test as well. They took their test scores to Lee County. And Lee County -- he went in front of the Lee County Licensing Board and they -- instead of qualifying Matrix, he qualified M&M. And now he wants to do work in Collier County under M&M Concrete. But unfortunately that -- he'll have to qualify two companIes. And we have never actually seen this before. But it does have -- usually when you qualify one company in Collier, you go to Lee County with the same test scores and the same business type, same business name. But this time he elected to change. So he is going to -- he already has a Q B licence or a qualified business up in Lee County called M&M, but he can't do work in Collier because he qualifies Matrix in Collier already, so you have to qualify two companies. MR. JOSLIN: Is this a state-certified license? MR. OSSORIO: No, it's a county license holder. MR. ZEANCHOCK: We hold licenses in Charlotte, Lee, we-- Lee I qualify both entities. Pinellas. And I thought -- well, just to qualify a second company, she'd asked to fill out the application and go before the board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any complaints against either company? MR. OSSORIO: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And what kind of license do you Page 25 September 17, 2008 hold? MR. ZEANCHOCK: Concrete placing and finishing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And that does qualify him for commercial, correct? MR. OSSORIO: It does. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything on the credit report, anybody? MR. GUITE': I didn't see anything. MR. L YKOS: Do we have a recommendation from you, Michael? MR. OSSORIO: I recommend we approve it. I have no problems. But it's one of those things that took me for surprise, unfortunately, that Matrix can't work in Lee County because they're not qualified in Lee County, but M&M can. So it's almost like the reverse. So if he wants to have Matrix, who can do work in Lee County, to do work in -- am I saying that correctly? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: His packet's clean as a whistle. I move to approve the second entity. MR. OSSORIO: It's weird. Lee County has to do some work. He's going to have to go back to Lee County and go in front of their board to qualify a second company if he wants to. That's all. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've got a motion -- MR. JOSLIN: I'll second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- and a second. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. Page 26 September 17, 2008 MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. I'm sorry. Any discussion? I didn't mean to jump that fast. (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, all those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. You're done. Oh, all of your stuff is here, so don't go to Maggie today . You can go there tomorrow. Wish you well. MR. ZEANCHOCK: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Randy Anderson, are you here? Randy, if you would, come up to the podium, sir. If I can have you state your name and then I'll have you sworn . . In, SIr. MR. ANDERSON: Randy Anderson. (Speakers were duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, we're just now getting your packet, but your certificate was canceled. Probably what, because of inactivity or something? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I'll go ahead and take the lead on this real quick, bring you up to speed. Mr. Anderson is a licensed registered electrical contractor. He is registered with Tallahassee as dormant status. And he's been-- obviously you can see through his packet that he has continued his Page 27 September 17, 2008 education. He does own a company called Bay Electric that has another qualifier. So he was under the assumption that basically since I already have one qualifier, I can put my license on dormant, which he has done so with the state and with our office. But unfortunately, you probably heard this before, is that the five-by-seven card, either he didn't get it or that he moved his office or we just sent it to the wrong address, I'm not sure. But he did not renew his certificate. So his State of Florida license is still dormant, active till 2010 -- or 2009, actually. But his county license has been canceled. Due to the fact that he's had continuing education and he's still licensed with the state registration, I recommend we approve it back to dormant status. MR. JOSLIN: So it's not going to become an active license, it's going to still remain dormant? MR. OSSORIO: It's going to remain dormant because -- MR. JOSLIN: -- with Collier, dormant-- MR. OSSORIO: Yes. And when and ifhe comes out of dormancy, we need a credit report, we'll do that too as well. MR. JOSLIN: Gotcha. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You want to add anything? MR. ANDERSON: No, he did very well. No, the reason I didn't have that is my partner is a lady, her name is Cheryl Miller, and we are a minority contractor, so I could not carry my license and hers on the same company, otherwise it would invalidate her minority status. So I put mine in dormant and then failed to get the proper payment to you with the card. And it would have been our error is all I can figure out. And so I'm asking for it to be reinstated. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're just talking that $20 annual fee, aren't we? Page 28 September 17, 2008 MR. OSSORIO: No, he's state registered. He'll have to pay his back fees, three years worth or two years worth. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But the state's okay. MR. OSSORIO: The state's fine. The state you have to reregister every two years. And unfortunate (sic) he's kept up his continuing education, and so I see no issue with this. MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion to approve. MR. L YKOS: Second, Lykos. CHAIRMAN LEFEBVRE: Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. You set the record this year. I wish you well. MR. ANDERSON: Have a good day. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You too. Before we get into public hearings, Sergio, what's your schedule like? MR. GONZALEZ: I'm open until whenever. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You want to speak now or you want to hear the cases? MR. GONZALEZ: I want to hear the cases. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, very good. Yeah, we are doing good. Case No. 2008-11. He just left the room. We're going to deal -- are you going to handle that one, Ian? Page 29 September 17, 2008 MR. JACKSON: I will. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Paul Riddenberger (sic), Riddenberger Custom Homes. We started hearing that last month, and what are we going to do? MR. JACKSON: The case is withdrawn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The case is withdrawn? MR. JACKSON: Indefinitely. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. That was easy. Case No. 2008-13, Michael McNeal, is that you, d/b/a New Code Windows and Doors. And who's going to present that case? Good morning. MR. KENNETTE: I am Allen. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to have -- would you come to the podium, yes, sir. Mr. McNeal, is it? MR. McNEAL: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You want for swear both of them in at the same time? MR. NEALE: Mr. Dickson, if I would suggest, since we've got a new form here, is maybe work off that so everybody could -- because that also introduces the process for the hearing and everything. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let me go ahead and get them sworn. (Speakers were duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Gentlemen, for everyone present, we've got a little new legalese to kind of explain this. And we'll get to where we do it verbatim like we have in the past. But since this is new, let me read it to you. This is how the hearing will go. They are conducted pursuant to the procedures set out in our Ordinance, Collier County 90-105, as amended, and State Statutes Chapter 489. Page 30 September 17, 2008 They're quasi-judicial in nature, which means formal Rules of Evidence do apply -- MR. NEALE: Do not apply. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- but fundamental fairness and due process shall be observed and shall govern the proceedings. Irrelevant, immaterial or cumulative evidence shall be excluded, but all other evidence of a type commonly relied on by prudent people in the conduct of their affairs shall be admissible -- in other words, hearsay -- whether or not such evidence shall be admissible in a trial in the court of the State of Florida. Hearsay evidence may be used for supporting or explaining any evidence, but shall not be sufficient by itself to support a finding unless such hearsay would be admissible over objection in civil actions in a court. Rules of privilege shall be effective to the same extent that they are now, or hereby may be recognized in civil action. Explain rules of privilege, Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: Basically where someone has privileged testimony or privileged information, like attorney-client privilege or something like that where you can assert a privilege where you do not have to reveal certain information. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very well. Any member of the Contractor Licensing Board may question you at any time before the board. Each party of the proceedings shall have a right to call and examine witnesses, introduce exhibits, cross-examine the other person's witnesses, to impeach any witness -- in other words, prove them wrong -- regardless of which party called the witness to testify, and to rebut any evidence presented against the party. The Chairperson or the Vice-Chairperson in his absence shall have all powers necessary to conduct the proceedings at the hearing in a full, fair, impartial manner and to preserve order and decorum. Page 3 1 September 17, 2008 The general process of the hearing is for the county to present an opening statement, which he will do, where it sets out the charges in general terms. Here's where we always get off is the opening statement. It sets out the charges in general terms how it intends to prove them. And then you, Mr. McNeal, will make your opening statements setting out in general terms how you're going to defend the charges. The county then presents their case in chief, calling witnesses, presenting evidence. Then you can cross-examine these witnesses after the county has presented them. Once the county closes its case, then you can put on your defense, you can call witnesses and do all the things described earlier, that is, call and examine witnesses, to introduce exhibits, cross-examine witnesses, impeach them, regardless of which party called them, and review all the evidence that the county may have presented. They also can cross-examine your witnesses. After you put on your case, the county gets to present or rebut the respondent's presentation. When the rebuttal is concluded, then each party gets to present closing statements, with the county getting a second change to rebut all the respondent's closing arguments. The board -- then we will close public hearing. Public hearing means we are finished and we begin our deliberations, but you will hear those deliberations. The attorney for the board will give us our charge, more or less watch over us like a jury does, setting out the parameters for which they're (sic) base their decisions. During the deliberations we can ask you additional information or clarification, if we want. We will have two different tasks that we're going to be doing: First, whether or not you are guilty of the offenses charged by the administrative complaint. And a vote is taken on that matter by itself. Then if you're found guilty, then we have to decide the sanctions to be imposed. And the county attorney will advise us on those as well Page 32 September 17,2008 and what to consider. And we'll discuss those and take a vote on that. After those two things are decided, I, the Chair, will read a summary of the order issued by the board. The summary will set out the basic outline of the order but will not be exactly the same language as the final order. The final order will include full details required under state law and procedure, of which you will get a copy delivered to you. Any questions? MR. NEALE: Just one point is I think you said that the county attorney is going to advise the board. It will actually be I will advise the board, because I'm the board attorney. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I kind of -- the suits. The first suit, the second suit. So that you all know, he advises us, the county keeps us out of trouble, or keeps the county out of trouble. So with that, any other questions, clarifications? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You always are the only two guys that wear suits. MR. NEALE: We get paid to do that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wait till we show up one week all in suits. MR. NEALE: Then I'm going to wear a Hawaiian shirt that week. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, could we have the county's opening statement. MR. KENNETTE: Yes, my name is Allen Kennette. I'm from Contractor Licensing, Compliance Officer. I'd like to introduce into evidence Case No. 2008-13, Exhibit A, Board of County Commissioners versus R. Michael McNeal, doing business as New Code Windows and Doors, Incorporated. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Chairman, I make a motion that we take Caseh Page 33 September 17, 2008 No. 2008-13, Board of Commissioners versus R. Michael McNeal, d/b/a New Code Windows and Doors into evidence. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I second. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Proceed. MR. KENNETTE: You'll hear testimony today that on August 26th observed New Code Windows and Doors, Incorporated-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do me a favor. MR. KENNETTE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pull that mic. to you. MR. KENNETTE: Is that better? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You okay with that one? THE COURT REPORTER: Fine. MR. KENNETTE: Good? Okay. You'll hear testimony today that on August 26th, 2008, observed New Code Windows and Doors installing windows at 308 Second Street South, in the City of Naples. You will also hear testimony from Thomas Mariannino, Inspector for the City of Naples, about the posting at the mentioned above property, Exhibit 5 in the packet, that a stop work order was posted for no permit. You will also hear testimony from Thomas Mariannino, Inspector of the City of Naples, about other violations of New Code's Windows and Doors not pulling permits before doing work. And also Page 34 September 17, 2008 a meeting that was held at the City of Naples with the City Official on August 2nd, 2008 in these issues of the permits. You'll also hear testimony that a cease and desist agreement was signed by the qualifier, R. Michael McNeal, on May 9th, 2008, Exhibit 13 in the pamphlet, and that Mr. McNeal was informed of the outcome of any more work being done without permits, violating the ordinance, of violation 4.2.2 of the Florida Building Code under 489. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. McNeal, opening statement? MR. McNEAL: I am responsible for the -- I am the qualifier for New Code Windows and Doors, and I am responsible for the permitting process of New Code Windows and Doors. The violations that are delineated in the exhibit I plead guilty to. We did do work without permit on the job for the various addresses that are listed. And I would like to make a quick response to that comment, because I think that's a serious comment, and it's required some serious reorganization of our company to disallow any work to go out without permits. We are presently the largest permit puller or I guess you would say installation of windows and doors in Collier County, to include Marco Island and the City of Naples. As a result of some cutbacks that we had with personnel in April of this year, the workload has been extraordinary to try to catch up with our permitting process and how we are going to make sure that the permits are on the job before the job is begun, which is of course the rule. It has been made clear to me, as well as by the owner of the company, that as the -- as of the May 9th meeting with Mr. Kennette and Mr. Bollenback and Mr. Mariannino at the City of Naples that no further work would be done without permits. We agreed to that. And then we had another permit that was not Page 35 September 17, 2008 on the job. That was on Neopolitan Way. And that was what was the -- the big issue that I think we're dealing with now is the fact that after all the work that we have done to resolve this process, that we still had one job go out. And indeed, it was without the proper permit on the job. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's good for now. Go ahead, Mr. Kennette. MR. KENNETTE: Okay, I'd like to call Thomas Mariannino, Inspector for the City of Naples. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. McNeal, at this point if you would, I'll just have you sit right there on that front row. MR. McNEAL: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So are you going to ask him questions, Mr. Kennette? You all can use this podium over here. MR. OSSORIO: I will. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You will? Okay. (Speakers were duly sworn.) MR. MARIANNINO: M-A-R-I-A-N-N-I-N-O. Thomas Mariannino, Construction Site Inspector for the City of Naples. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you ever have to spell your name very often? MR. MARIANNINO: Quite a bit. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good to have you. MR. MARIANNINO: Thank you, sir. MR. OSSORIO: Good morning, Mr. Mariannino. MR. MARIANNINO: Good morning, Mike. MR. OSSORIO: For the record, can you state what your job entails and how long you've worked for City of Naples. MR. MARIANNINO: I've been with the City of Naples for approximately three-and-a-halfyears. And my job is with the building department. Page 36 September 17, 2008 MR. OSSORIO: And what kind of work do you do for the building department? MR. MARIANNINO: I'm the construction site and compliance inspector, but I also issue stop work orders and check on unpermitted work and unlicensed contractors. I work hand-in-hand with your person, Allen Kennette, in the city. MR. OSSORIO: And for the record, I'd like to go ahead and add him as an expert witness in issuing stop work orders and no building permit and the custodian of asking the questions is there a building permit or not a building permit in the City of Naples. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: His license qualifies him as an expert witness in that area, doesn't it, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Pardon me? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's an expert witness in that field because of his license? MR. NEALE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. NEALE: You can find him to be an expert witness. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Mariannino, can you explain to the licensing board -- do you have the Exhibit A in front of you? MR. MARIANNINO: Yes. MR. OSSORIO: Could you turn to E-5, E-6 and throughout E-8 and explain a little bit about New Code Windows and Mr. McNeal in referencing how we got to this position. And can you give testimony due to the fact that you were present of what the building official and you discussed with the qualifier of New Code and Windows (sic). MR. MARIANNINO: If I could take it in chronological order. The first incident that I found was at 1666 Third Street South. I made an inspection there and I found that half the windows were put in. And when I called my department to see if there was a permit issued, there was none. So at that time I made them secure the property and I issued a stop work order. Page 37 September 17, 2008 The second incident was at 2850 Gulfshore Boulevard North, Unit 403. Again, at that time there was no permit, so I did issue a stop work order. But basically most of the work was completed. And I believe that's the incident that a stop and desist order was issued by Allen. MR. OSSORIO: Were you present when the cease and desist order was issued to the qualifier? MR. MARIANNINO: Yes. MR. OSSORIO: Okay. MR. MARIANNINO: The third issue, we had a call of an unlicensed contractor doing work, and when I got there, I noticed a large slider that was brand new. And when I had asked the homeowner, he told me New Code had put it in. And this was existing already when I got there. So we required them to get a permit for that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This is E-14? MR. MARIANNINO: Excuse me? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This is E-14 down at the bottom? MR. MARIANNINO: Yes, 350 Yucca. MR. OSSORIO: So let me ask you a question, Mr. Mariannino: So after all these stop work orders and all these, you did -- your building official, Paul Bollenback, in the City of Naples did bring in the qualifier, Mr. McNeal and you were present? MR. MARIANNINO: Yes. MR. OSSORIO: And can you tell the board a little bit what that meeting -- how that meeting transpired and what was said. MR. MARIANNINO: We basically went over what we expected of New Code from that point on, and we reviewed the cases that we had prior to that. And Mr. McNeal said he would comply from that point on. And we actually went through what the consequences could be. MR. OSSORIO: So you advised Mr. McNeal that ifhe continued on the path of not pulling building permits, that the City of Page 38 September 17, 2008 Naples would have no choice but to make a complaint with the Contractor Licensing Board? MR. MARIANNINO: Absolutely. We made it perfectly clear to him. MR. OSSORIO: And are you saying that several weeks later after that meeting you were called out to another address of possible no building permits of New Code and Windows (sic)? MR. MARIANNINO: That's correct. Approximately three weeks later. MR. OSSORIO: And what address was that? MR. MARIANNINO: That was 308 Second Street South. MR. OSSORIO: And that's Exhibit No. E-5. So I just want to make sure we get this correct. So you had several meetings. You had one meeting with the qualifier and the city building departments. And it was explained to him ifhe continued to work without a building permit we would constitute that willful code violation? MR. MARIANNINO: Yes. MR. OSSORIO: I have no further questions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. McNeal, do you have any questions of the witness, sir? MR. McNEAL: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does anybody else have any questions of the witness? MR. JERULLE: Yeah, I have a question. On the windows that were installed without a permit, what happened to those windows? Did-- MR. MARIANNINO: Ultimately there was a permit issued. We red tagged -- some jobs that were not completed we red tagged. Other jobs that were completed, we required a permit. And our process is that we quad the fees, which would be four times the amount. MR. JERULLE: So was there an inspection performed on the Page 39 September 17, 2008 windows that were installed without a permit? MR. MARIANNINO: Ultimately there was. There was a permit issued, and -- yes. MR. JERULLE: Okay. MR. JOSLIN: In reality then all of the jobs that you've listed on here or all of the addresses that you've given us have now been permitted and inspected and finished? MR. MARIANNINO: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: And permits have been issued. MR. MARIANNINO: Yes. MR. L YKOS: Mr. Mariannino, if I've got this chronologically correct, the meeting with Mr. McNeal was held on May 9th? MR. MARIANNINO: No, the meeting with Mr. McNeal in Paul Bollenback's office was on August 5th. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? MR. JERULLE: Mr. Mariannino, I know who you are and I know you do a very good job, and I don't want you to take this question the wrong way. MR. MARIANNINO: No, sir. MR. JERULLE: But is there any chance, I mean, as big as the city is, that other windows could have been installed without you knowing about it? MR. MARIANNINO: Absolutely. I can't be everywhere. MR. JERULLE: Correct. MR. JOSLIN: Are there any other jobs out there that we know about now that have been done without a permit? MR. MARIANNINO: Not to my knowledge. Not in the city. MR. OSSORIO: You're referencing New Code; am I correct? MR. JOSLIN: Yes. MR. L YKOS: I want to go back to the chronological order, if I may. Item E-13, which is in our packet, which is the cease and desist agreement between the building department, Mr. Kennette and Mr. Page 40 September 17, 2008 McN eal was signed on May 9th, correct? MR. MARIANNINO: That's correct. And that was on the job at 2850 Gulfshore Boulevard North. MR. L YKOS: Okay. And then it looks like there were three jobs after that agreement was signed. MR. MARIANNINO: Well-- MR. L YKOS: On June 25th there was a stop work order at 350 Yucca. On August -- MR. MARIANNINO: Well, there was no stop work order on that one. That was already completed. So I don't know when that was done. That could have been done in April or-- MR. L YKOS: I understand, okay. It was just discovered on June 25th. MR. MARIANNINO: That's correct. MR. L YKOS: And then on August 5th, there was a stop work order posted at 549 Neopolitan Way. And then on August 26th, a stop work order at 308 Second Street. MR. MARIANNINO: Yeah, the one on Neopolitan. When we discovered it, the work had been completed. They were just cleaning up -- MR. L YKOS: So, in other words you don't know -- MR. MARIANNINO: -- no stop work order was issued -- MR. L YKOS: -- you discovered it on August 5th, you don't know when the work occurred. MR. MARIANNINO: I believe it was August 4th that I actually discovered it, yes. MR. L YKOS: Okay, thank you. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, we call Allen Kennette. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Thank you, sir. MR. OSSORIO: Allen, if you could, turn to the Exhibit A, E-13. MR. KENNETTE: Okay. Page 41 September 17, 2008 MR. OSSORIO: And can you explain what we're looking at? This seems to be a cease and desist agreement between you and the qualifier of New Code? MR. KENNETTE: Yes, this was a cease and desist out at the Gulfshore Boulevard, 2850. They were doing Unit No. 403. They had a contractor do the complete building but they were doing Unit 403 as a test to show what the doors and windows were going to look like. Tom had gone out there in the morning and put a stop work order on it for no building permit, told the gentlemen to wrap it up and leave that day. Two hours later he went back by there, they were still there working. He called me. I arrived on the scene to see what was actually going on and they were continually doing a closet. So we got ahold of Mr. McNeal by phone. He arrived at the job site, said there was a misunderstanding between him and the workers and that the job should have been stopped and not continued and that they were going to leave that area. At that time I had him sign a cease and desist order. He gave me proper ID because I did not know him at that time. But he did give me ID showing that he was R. Michael McNeal, the qualifier of New Code Windows and Doors, which he did sign. And at that point I informed him that any more violations with -- work without building permits would be a willful code violation of the Florida Statute 105.5 and our Statute of 4.2.2. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Kennette, can you just read maybe to the board the, therefore, being fully advised, I do agree? MR. KENNETTE: It would be three quarters of the way down the page, the big bold print: Therefore, being fully advised, I do agree that I will pull all building permits required by the statutes, and fully understand that if I continue to work without a building permit in the future that the contractor licensing department will consider that a willful code violation and penalties and permit building (sic) Page 42 September 17, 2008 privileges will follow. MR. OSSORIO: Did Mr. McNeal sign that? MR. KENNETTE: Yes, he did. And it was pointed out to him. MR. OSSORIO: And after this agreement we do have evidence that he continued to work with no building permits? MR. KENNETTE: Yes, he did. MR. OSSORIO: No other questions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. McNeal, do you have any questions? MR. McNEAL: Not of Mr. Kennette, no. MR. OSSORIO: We have no other witnesses. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a question for the county. Do we have any of these issues in Collier County? MR. KENNETTE: To my knowledge, I've stopped at all the job sites that I've seen New Code Windows and Doors doing, and they do have permits. I have not found one in the city that I know of that has been done without a permit. I do make an attempt to stop. One of them didn't have a permit, but they were doing a repair job on a window that wasn't sealed properly that had been permitted before, and that was all. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So none in the county, just the city? MR. KENNETTE: Nothing in the county. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. McNeal, if you would step forward to the podium. You can present your case, sir. MR. McNEAL: On the -- the initial case that was at 2800 Gulfshore Boulevard North, this was a one-window deal that Mr. Kennette spoke about. And I made the mistake of -- we had -- we were doing all the solid doors in all of the units in that particular condominium. It was my intent to have a trial -- try it out and see how the doors were going to go, because we had not tried to -- I mean, we had not installed this particular product before. Page 43 September 17, 2008 It was -- Mr. Mariannino was there in the -- literally in the area and stopped by and put a stop work order at that time. And we had discussion. And then, as Mr. Kennette said, he came back about two hours later and we were still finishing up some work on an exterior closet. And we stopped that also. Mr. Mariannino was quite verbal about making sure that that work was stopped. And I understood, got the guys off the job. That was my fault. And it was my intention not to supercede the permitting process but to make it go smoother when we did all the other jobs. The stop work order I took very seriously. And I put that in the -- I called up my office in Fort Myers, which -- and my edict was that we are not going to do any other work without permits, period. Very quickly after that, and this was not to my knowledge, but three more jobs were done without permitting. They were applied for but there was no permit on-site. One of them was not even applied for. And they were relatively small jobs, but regardless, they were not permitted. At that time I did not know that those jobs were going out until I got the -- they happened in quick succession. And Mr. Mariannino and Mr. Kennette called me and I put a stop to it at that time, again saying we cannot do what we shouldn't be doing. In other words, we need to have permits for all jobs, regardless of the money of the job, regardless of the timing, period. We made a -- after that I think that everybody in the office got the -- well, I know that everybody in the office got the memo, as you would say, and all work did not go out without a permit. It had to be that way. And there's a spreadsheet that I've created that -- it's simple, if the installer does not have a permit, the job cannot be installed, period. That's the way that I phrased it and that's the way that the work is being done. Page 44 September 17, 2008 Then we had a mistake. And this was the fifth one, the last job that was on N eopolitan Way. The gal that I have in my office in Fort Myers had mistakenly put down that the job had been permitted. It had not been permitted. She had sent the job out with the installers. And that was in a very visible area of Naples. And Mr. Mariannino and Mr. Kennette called me and said we've -- that's the end. We need to get this thing settled and we need to get it settled right now. I was -- I was very annoyed. I was very upset. And when I get a call from Mr. Mariannino, I know it's not a good thing. And that was where I was at that point in time. I have taken total control of all of the permitting processes that go out of Fort Myers. My office is in Naples. This is part of the problem. I have my office in Naples because we do a significant amount of work in Naples, Marco Island, City of Naples. And the main office and the plant that we build windows, we warehouse windows and doors are in Fort Myers. That's where all the installers start their day is in Fort Myers and come down -- usually coming down. Because like I say, most of our job, I'd say 70 to 80 percent, is in this Collier County area. After this last situation happened, the owner and myself met and we met with each of the installers. And their job is on the line. In other words, if they go out with a job that does not have a permit, they could lose their position in the company. If a job is scheduled by the need for getting money, which seems to be a big deal these days -- I don't mean that in a light way, I mean that in a serious way. But I don't deal with the money, I deal, frankly, with the mechanics. I have the responsibility of getting the job out and making sure the job is done correctly. That's my responsibility. And the money person, the guy that does the money, is no longer able to authorize a job without the permit in hand. Physically has to be in hand. Page 45 September 17, 2008 As an example, and I'll end my remarks right now, I've just done two jobs in Collier County two days ago that were permitted for $1,250. Simple window jobs, but they were definitely permitted. They were commercial jobs, and the permit fees are going to be more than what the salesman would make. But the issue is having the permit on the job before the work is done. We take great pride in what we do. We are the -- we figure the leaders of the community and set the standards in many of the jobs. And I don't think there's any inspection that we've had that has been -- failed because of improper work or anything that would be sloppy installation. It's perfect. Can I answer anymore questions? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I have a comment. MR. McNEAL: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I beat you. I want to make a comment and then I want to see how you respond to it. And it's about a three-part comment. Number one, it's obvious to me that you don't have control. And the owner is somewhat cavalier about all this by his absence today. So it kind of tells me if we revoke your license or stop your permit-pulling privileges, they'll just replace you with another license. And then I see the city over here, two of their enforcement officers here. That's the second time in 20 years. So you obviously have made a lot of people really angry. And what I'm seeing here is probably just the tip of the iceberg of how many permits you haven't pulled. And so because of seeing all those things today, there's a lot of people not happy with New Code Windows and Doors. And this isn't the first time. And then we hear this grand statement that oh, you've worked it out and we had a mistake, but it's never going to happen again. Well, I'm old enough and wise enough that I bet you it's probably going to happen again within 30 to 60 days. Page 46 September 17, 2008 So what guarantee can you tell me that it's not going to? And how can you tell me you have control when the owner lets things go on like this and then he just sends you out on your own down here to face this by yourself today? MR. McNEAL: Okay. I'd like to answer all the questions, or all the comments, and I'll do it as quickly as possible. Number one, the owner is not a cavalier owner, and he takes the work very seriously. The reason he is not here today was that I was instructed to be here today as the qualifier. And I had been talking with Mr. Kennette on two or three different occasions as to how to prepare for my presence today. And the owner would have gladly been here if he would have needed to be. Needed to be in terms of what the process was presented to me as. I haven't been sleeping well because of this. I take this very seriously. And I'm not blowing smoke. We have documentation of more than 400 permits that we've pulled in Collier County alone. Then that doesn't include Marco Island and does not include the City of Naples. We do not, and I'll -- I have to say this with every ounce of energy that I can come up with, but we are not and we have not been pulling permits -- or doing jobs without having the permits on the job, period. We have had to reduce our workforce, which has been a sign of the times. And it's been difficult to adjust to that. I don't mean that as an excuse, only as a fact of what has happened as a result of the economy. And we still are doing quite a bit of work. If you talk to anybody when you walk into Collier County, they see me every day. And likewise, with the City of Naples and with Marco Island. I'm very visible and I also get to almost every job site. Some I confess I haven't been able to get to in Fort Myers, just because of the location. But most of those have been commercial jobs that I've seen the end result Page 47 September 17, 2008 of, pictures. I -- I made a mistake initially to generate this whole process going bad. And my mistake was not even very well explainable. I was trying to do a door to see what kind of problems we'd have with doing the door. Well, that sounds pretty suspicious. Mr. Mariannino and I had a talk about that. And it just sounds, come on. But then I had 104 doors on the same job that were permitted within the next two weeks that we had a semi truck trailer there for the period of maybe five weeks to do the job. I take it very seriously. I continue to work very hard to maintain relationships with all the people in the county, to include the cities and Fort Myers. And I value that very much in being able to -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, you're not answering my question, you're just blowing more smoke. MR. McNEAL: I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're telling me this can't happen again? MR. McNEAL: No, it cannot happen again because we have three safeguards in Fort Myers that the job will not go out without a permit, period. There's a job waiting today to go out that I said cannot go out, it's been approved. City of Naples. I even asked Mr. Bollenback if we could have it be processed early. He said no, or at least I haven't heard, and it's not going out today, period. I'm-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you would have no problem ifit happens again that all permit pulling privileges are pulled? MR. McNEAL: That's correct. MR. JOSLIN: Or possibly your license revoked? MR. McNEAL: Excuse me? MR. JOSLIN: Or possibly your license revoked? MR. McNEAL: Yes. I'm being that dramatic because I understand the significance of what we're talking about now. I'm not Page 48 September 17, 2008 playing -- MR. JOSLIN: Mr. McNeal, I don't mean to cut you off, but I think I've heard enough. MR. McNEAL: Yes, sir. MR. JOSLIN: I just have one question for you real quick. And of New Code Windows and Doors, Inc., you license -- you are the license holder for this company? MR. McNEAL: Yes, sir. MR. JOSLIN: It sounds to me like Mr. Dickson is absolutely right, that you've lost control of this company. In downsizing or in all of the comments you've made that because of the economy and what's going on here, you're still making some pretty major faults with your company. Enough to bring the City of Naples here that has cited you many times for the same offense. N ow you're going to have a hard time convincing this board, I feel, that we're going to not do anything to you at this particular moment. I can't understand why you would want to have a contract, you just said, where you have 107 or 111 doors that are going to go in one section of a condo, but you still had the thought that you could go in there and put in a door without a permit? Now, that's a pretty sizable contract. And I would think that any good contractor would want to go and get a permit before he touched the job. What if that door didn't fit? MR. McNEAL: Well, that was one of the issues. It was all made to fit and they were -- there are three doors on a condo on that particular job, and I was very concerned about how the fasteners were going to work and getting some kind of -- MR. JOSLIN: Okay, but it still required a permit, nevertheless. MR. McNEAL: That's not -- nonetheless, you're absolutely correct. MR. JOSLIN: So what you're saying -- what you're telling this Page 49 September 17, 2008 board is that the count that you're brought up on, the charges you're brought up on today is that you feel as though you are guilty. MR. McNEAL: That's correct. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. I have no further questions. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I have one question. Mr. McNeal, you mentioned earlier in your statement that the last time was Neopolitan Way. MR. McNEAL: Yes, sir. MR. OSSORIO: I was assuming that 308 Second Street South was after N eopolitan; am I correct? MR. McNEAL: No. MR. OSSORIO: No. Okay. What date was the stop work order issued for Neopolitan Way; do you remember? MR. JOSLIN: August 5th. MR. MARIANNINO: May I add a little clarity to this? MR. McNEAL: August 5, yes. MR. MARIANNINO: Neopolitan Way, that's the particular job that was completed, and that was on August 4th. The last job was 308 Second Street. MR. OSSORIO: So when you had your meetings with your staff members, Mr. McNeal, referencing the Neopolitan, that was the last straw. Indeed, a couple weeks later, 308 Second Street popped out and there was no building permit; am I correct? MR. McNEAL: Yes, sir. I apologize for making the reverse of that. But you're absolutely correct, that was the last one. And that was the one that was the mistake that I had referred to earlier. I was not looking at my notes when I was making the comments. The fact of the matter is that we have had, as has been pointed out, five infractions with the City of Naples with no permits on the job or permits being in partial process but not on the job. And the last one was on the Second Street, that's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does anybody else have anything Page 50 September 17, 2008 else? MR. JERULLE: Yeah, I have a question. You're licensed? You're a certified general contractor? MR. McNEAL: Yes, sir. MR. JERULLE: And so you've taken the state exam? MR. McNEAL: Oh, yes. MR. JERULLE: And you're the license holder for New Code Windows? MR. McNEAL: Yes. MR. JERULLE: The qualifier? MR. McNEAL: Yes, sir. MR. JERULLE: And you know through taking the test and being the qualifier that a permit has to be in hand prior to any work? MR. McNEAL: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, County, closing arguments? MR. OSSORIO: Well, I'd like to go ahead and recall Tom Mariannino, just real quick. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. You can stay there, Mr. McNeal. MR. MARIANNINO: Tom Mariannino. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Mariannino, just for the record, when you -- can you tell us the date you had a meeting with Paul Bollenback and the qualifier, Mr. McNeal in the city, city department? MR. MARIANNINO: August 5th. MR. OSSORIO: And on August 5th, was it kind of unusual that Mr. McNeal wasn't there and the building official was talking about New Code and Windows, that the owner of the company wasn't there? MR. MARIANNINO: Yes. MR. OSSORIO: Did you find that pretty odd that the owner of the company wasn't present? Page 51 September 17, 2008 MR. MARIANNINO: I did. MR. OSSORIO: No other questions. MR. BOYD: I have a question. The Second Street job that was 8/26, was there a permit in process for that -- MR. MARIANNINO: I believe there was. MR. BOYD: -- at the time? MR. MARIANNINO: It was in permitting. It was not approved. Oh, there was no permit? Okay. There's so many of these, I get confused. Yes, sir. MR. BOYD: So they hadn't even applied for a permit. MR. MARIANNINO: No. MR. BOYD: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have any questions of the witness? MR. McNEAL: No. MR. OSSORIO: One other question for Mr. Mariannino. Maybe you won't be able to answer the question, but how long does it take to go through the process in the City of Naples for replacing windows? MR. MARIANNINO: In that particular case, it's two to three weeks. And that's the entire process. And that's probably about the time it takes him to build a window. MR. OSSORIO: No other questions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir. Appreciate you comIng. Do you have anything else? MR. OSSORIO: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, closing statement by the county? MR. OSSORIO: I do. Mr. Chairman, you heard testimony through the City of Naples Building Department, you heard testimony from the Collier County Page 52 September 17, 2008 Contractor Licensing office. You've heard that our office issued a notice to Mr. McNeal referencing ifhe continued to work without a building permit it would constitute willful code violation. You heard testimony from Mr. McNeal, who is the qualifier of the company, stating the fact that he did violate the code, and he understands it is willful. So therefore, I believe that he has willfully violated 105 of the Florida Building Code. And he also violated our section of the 2006-21 Collier County Ordinance 2.2.2, willfully violating the Florida Building Code. That's all I have. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. McNeal, do you have a closing statement? MR. McNEAL: Yes, sir. And I'll try to be very brief. And I would plead with the board to realize that we have had a huge company develop from nothing in about five years -- actually about five-and-a-half-years; I've been with the company from the first day of inception. We have taken a lot of pride in doing work very well. Obviously we haven't done as good with the permitting process as we should. I have taken control. And I don't feel that I've lost control of the company, as Mr. Joslin said. I think it's that I did not realize at what point the permits were not going out with the jobs; in other words, the money that was being pushed to try to get the jobs out the door, I was not as aware of that as I should. And part of that has to do with the fact that I was in the Naples office instead of the Fort Myers office. I've made corrections to all of that with the owner. By the way, when the August 5 episode occurred, my -- the owner of the company was also on the phone a number of times with Mr. Kennette and Mr. Bollenback, and spoke to them directly at that time, expressing his need to get this problem taken care of, as well as knowing that I was going to be taking care of it. We have been talking daily. I talk to him every day, sometimesr Page 53 September 17, 2008 -- I was up there yesterday in Fort Myers, and feel that I have solved the problem. When you asked me before, Mr. Joslin, if I was able to risk my license and the ability of the company to continue to do work based upon the word that I'm giving you and say yes, that means a lot to me. And that is where I am right now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir. Do I hear a motion to close public hearing? MR. L YKOS: So moved, Lykos. MR. JOSLIN: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Have a seat, Mr. McNeal. First thing we'll do is look at the charges after Mr. Neale gives us our briefing. MR. NEALE: With the new format, a lot of what I say here I'm going to leave out from what I used to say in the past. But basically the board has to ascertain that this is -- the principles of fundamental fairness and due process were afforded to the respondent. When you're considering this case, you really can only consider the evidence presented at this hearing today and exclude from your deliberations any irrelevant, immaterial or cumulative testimony. But you shall admit and consider all other evidence of a type commonly relied upon by a reasonably prudent person in the conduct of their Page 54 September 17, 2008 affairs. Hearsay may be used to explain or supplement other evidence but it can't be the only basis for your decision. The standard in a case such as this, where the sanctions available are those other than those affecting the license is that of a preponderance of the evidence. Since this is a case against a state contractor, the only sanctions available, should you find him in violation, are to remove or restrict his permit-pulling privileges. The standard in evidence to be weighed solely are as to the charges set out in the complaint as Ordinance 90-105, Section 4.2.2, which is willfully violating the applicable building codes or laws of the state, city or Collier County. In order to support a finding that the respondent's in violation of this, you must find that the violations were actually committed by the respondent. The facts must also show to a preponderance of the evidence the legal conclusion that this respondent was in violation of those. This charge is the only one that the board may decide upon, as it's the only one to which the respondent had the opportunity to prepare a defense. Any damages that are found, even though it's not a matter in this case, must be directly related to these charges. The decision made by this board shall be stated orally at this hearing and is effective upon being read by the board. The respondent, if found in violation, has certain appeal rights to this board, the courts and the state construction industry licensing board as set out in the ordinance, Florida Statutes and Rules, and in the order itself. If the board is unable to issue a decision immediately following the hearing because of the questions of law or other matters of such a nature that a decision may not be made at this hearing, the board may withhold its decision until a subsequent meeting. Page 55 September 17, 2008 The board shall vote based upon the evidence presented on all areas, and if it finds the respondent in violation of the administrative complaint, the board shall also make findings of fact and conclusions of law in support of the charges set out in the administrative complaint. So the board now will consider the first as to whether he was violation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. The one count we're dealing with and only one count is 4.2.2, willfully violating applicable building codes or laws for the state, city or Collier County. Any discussion or a motion? MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead. MR. JOSLIN: Unless there's any other discussion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He admitted to it. MR. JOSLIN: Pretty much that's the way it has to go then. In the case of2008-13, William -- or R. Michael McNeal, d/b/a New Code Windows and Doors, License No. CGC-059099, the board has found that -- I make a motion, I'm sorry, that the plaintiff (sic) be found guilty of Count 1, 4.2.2, willfully violating the applicable building codes or laws of the state, the city of Collier County (sic). CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MR. BOYD: Second, Boyd. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. Page 56 September 17, 2008 MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's unanimous. Now we go to the penalty phase, and again, Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: As the board-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: State certified contractor. MR. NEALE: As the board has found the respondent in violation, it must decide on the sanctions to be imposed. The sanctions are set out in the codified ordinance of Collier County at 22-203(B)(1), and the revised ordinance in Section 4.3.5. The sanctions which may be imposed include only the denial of issuance of Collier County or city building permits, or requirement that those permits be issued with specific conditions. In imposing the sanction, the board shall consider the gravity of the violation, the impact of the violation on the community and the citizens of Collier County and the City of Naples, any actions taken by the violator to correct the violation, any previous violations committed, and any other evidence presented at the hearing by the parties that's relevant as to the sanction that's appropriate for the case, given the nature of this matter. The board shall also issue a recommended penalty for the State Construction Industry Licensing Board, and that penalty may include a recommendation for no further action, recommendation of suspension, revocation or restriction of the registration, or a fine to be levied by the state board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And Mr. Ossorio, what's the county's recommendations? MR. OSSORIO: The county's recommendation is a -- we do make a complaint with the Department of Business & Professional Regulations. Page 57 September 17, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Say that again? MR. OSSORIO: We make a recommendation that you forward this case to the Department. We also recommend that the penalties be a $5,000 penalty to be paid to the Board of County Commissioners, and no further action on suspension of building pulling permit privileges. I believe we should not pull his building permit privileges. We should monitor it and see if indeed if it happens again. MR. JOSLIN: Probation? MR. OSSORIO: I don't think we can enact for probation, but I think we're going to forward it to the state, let the state do their independent investigation through their probable cause panel. And we should just be able to recommend a $5,000 penalty to be paid to the Board of County Commissioners. MR. NEALE: Since he's a state contractor, that's not an available remedy though. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pardon me? MR. NEALE: Since he's a state contractor, that's not an available remedy. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The fine? MR. OSSORIO: I'm sorry, it's a penalty. I'm sorry, recommend a penalty of $5,000 fine. MR. NEALE: To the state. MR. OSSORIO: To the state. MR. NEALE: Recommend to the state that they -- MR. OSSORIO: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: As far as the suspension of his permitting privileges, can we put some type of a probationary period on him pulling permits in Collier County? Put restrictions on -- MR. NEALE: Certainly. Yeah, that's -- within the purview of the board two things that the board may do is either deny the issuance of permits or require that permits be issued with specific conditions, and Page 58 September 17,2008 the board can set those conditions within its purview. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What about -- can we do investigative charges? MR. NEALE: No. You can recommend to the state that they impose them, but this board cannot impose them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We'll never get them back. MR. L YKOS: Before the board starts to consider penalties, I'd like to make -- I'd like to express two concerns. One is that the owner of the company doesn't feel any of these proceedings are important, whether at the city, meeting with Mr. Kennette or being here today. If this was me, I wouldn't want anybody but myself to represent my company. That's number one. Number two, to me it was conspicuous that all of these problems are with City of Naples permits. Now I pull permits in the county and I pull permits in the city. And I can tell you that when Mr. Bollenback took over the city building department, it took a lot longer to get permits. Mr. Bollenback's staff goes over every permit application with a fine-toothed comb. Five, 10 years ago, I could get a condominium renovation permit in five or six days. Now it takes three, four, five weeks. I've met with Mr. Bollenback. They go over everything with a fine-toothed comb. They do not take any chances; they represent the public's best interests extremely well. Because of the number of employees with the county, it's actually easier to get a permit in the county now than it is in the city, and it used to be opposite. And I just find it conspicuous that the jobs that didn't get permits were all in the city. To me this isn't about accidentally jobs going out without permits. All of them in the city? To me there was -- I don't want to imply there was a decision made to not get city permits, but it is conspicuous to me that there were five jobs all within the city, and Page 59 September 17,2008 at least two of those were after the fact. Somehow the city stumbled upon -- and I don't mean to imply anything negative against the city, but somehow the city came upon two projects that were already completed, never had a permit on the job. And the last one that occurred, there was no permit applied for. After the agreement was signed -- to me there's just obvious disregard for the building permit process and for the consequences of those actions. It's just too obvious. I mean, all in the city? Permits in the city are a lot tougher than they used to be. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're in discussion, and I -- the other thing I do, I was accused this week of being too nice by somebody on a -- and I usually am. But I always look at the gravity of the violation. And I look at these windows, not only in high-rises, the danger that is there. Not just from storms, but a child falling out of one. I look at on the one story, these impact glass, you guys know how heavy those are. One of those falling and crushing a child. I look at the gravity of the violation. And to be honest with you, I'm in agreement with you, I'm really quite upset about this. MR. JOSLIN: And unfortunately we can't do a whole lot to it other than putting him on a pretty good restriction here in this county and make the recommendations. I think you're absolutely right, I mean, this is why I mentioned the fact that I think he lost control of the company. Maybe it's a fact of with the times and possibly yes, with the economy changing he needed to proceed with his job to maybe make cash flow fall and do it in a quicker manner and not have to wait the two or three weeks for the permits. But nevertheless, guilt is guilt, no matter how you look at it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But the city's already worked with him. MR. JOSLIN: Exactly. Page 60 September 17, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The city's already given him second chances, and it didn't work. MR. JOSLIN: I think everyone's given him as many chances as probably are going to be given at this moment. MR. L YKOS: The other issue that Mr. Joslin brought up is all the owner of the company's got to do is hire a new guy to qualify his business. And to me that's just even more disregard for the system. I'll just go hire somebody else. MR. JOSLIN: And that's a good indication of why the owner may not be here. There's a possibility that this man could lose his job and now he's got no qualifier, so he just can go get a new one. MR. L YKOS: I don't know what we're allowed to do but I think CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, here's what you're allowed to do. Read it again, Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: You can deny the issuance of Collier County or city building permits, or require the issuance of permits with specific conditions. What conditions those can be are fairly broad, so -- MR. L YKOS: Well, that second part doesn't work, because you actually have to apply for a permit to put conditions on it. And it seems like they have a history of not applying for permits. So that doesn't do us any good, does it? MR. NEALE: One thing this board has done in the past, it may fit into this purview, a little bit of a shave on it, but -- is this board has required that contractors advise them of every job they obtain. MR. L YKOS: Well, that would be trusting them to do the right thing. The other concern I have, and I -- I was pretty quiet before. And there's a lot of things about this that really bother me. I've done replacement sliding glass doors and enclosed lanais and those kind of things, and sometimes there's engineering that's got Page 61 September 17, 2008 to be done in advance, there are buck inspections that have to be done. And if you don't have to get engineering, it makes your job cost less to the homeowner. If you have a homeowner who's got a tight time frame and you can do the job without a permit, it makes you more appealing to the homeowner. Again, I think that some of these things that have happened have been business decisions and not accidents. I think these are contrived, I think they're done intentionally, and I have a sincere concern about those issues moving forward with this company. MR. JERULLE: I agree. As a general contractor in this city and county, I wholeheartedly agree with you, Tom. A lot of things -- proj ects may have been done out there that we haven't found out about. And without inspections, you don't know how they're installed. And the public is being deceived by hiring this company and trusting this company to install a window, a hurricane glass that may not be actually hurricane proof. I have serious concerns. MR. L YKOS: And so you guys might not be familiar with how some of this works. If you're below 30 feet in a building, you have to have high impact glass. 30 feet to 60 feet you have to have what's called small missile impact glass. And then above 60 feet you don't have to have impact glass. Well, if a company is not getting permits, they could be more price competitive if they're putting non-impact or small missile impact on the lower 30 feet of a building. I mean, there are so many things where you have to trust the contractor to do the right thing. And without having the building department to back up what's supposed to be done, I think that New Code has created a competitive advantage for themselves by not pulling permits. Not only the administrative cost for pulling the Page 62 September 17, 2008 permit, but on all your things where a company could misrepresent what needs to be done. I have a big problem with it. MR. JOSLIN: On the other side of the coin now, I know that you're on a roll here, but on the other side of the coin, you have to look at the man's testimony and you have to look at the City of Naples' testimony that, okay, all the permits we asked, were they all completed and permitted and now they're done and inspected correctly. So on one side of the coin you say he did it wrong without a permit, but on the other side of the coin you say, okay, it was done, completed, and it is to code. MR. JERULLE: But that's after the fact. MR. JOSLIN: After the fact, right. MR. JERULLE: That's after the fact. We don't -- I mean, not to imply that there are problems, but we just don't know. And this is -- as a board, this is a contractor that's not doing the right thing. MR. JOSLIN: Exactly. MR. JERULLE: And I'm just not comfortable moving forward. MR. McNEAL: May I respond in any way? MR. JOSLIN: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's bring it to a head. Someone give me a motion. MR. JOSLIN: I think there's only one -- while we're still in discussion, I think there's only one -- either one of two things we're going to be able to do here to make this motion fly. It's either suspend his privileges here and recommend it to the board, or we put him on a real strict probation as far as -- or not probation but restrictions to get permits here in Collier. We can't make him go get permits, but we can take his license if he doesn't. MR. JERULLE: I have a question. Ifwe do recommend this to go to the state, how long does that process take? Page 63 September 17,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: About three or four years. Right now -- well, that's not you. But the state board has been running -- prior to the downturn in the economy, they were running four years behind. MR. OSSORIO: Well, Mr. Dickson, I would tend to agree with you, but we heard a case several months ago, and we just heard back from the construction licensing board and they are taking this gentleman to their board very quickly. So two months ago I would have said you're absolutely right, don't hold your breath, you're not going to be here. But we did hear confirmation from one of our -- we had a general contr -- if you remember the general contractor with no insulation seven months ago, well, that is proceeding to the Construction Industry Licensing Board. It went through the probable cause panel, the attorney picked it up in Tallahassee and they're scheduled to the board. So that is working. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, good. MR. MARIANNINO: I think before somebody makes a motion, we should consider putting the company on probation, and that if this happens again then we would restrict his ability to pull a permit in Collier County immediately. And at the same time recommend to the State Contractors Board the maximum fine and investigation fees that they would see fit. MR. L YKOS: I'd like to pull their permit -- permit pulling privileges, even for a short time, just to make a statement, especially to the owner, that this is very serious. And if decisions were made because they wanted to expedite cash flow, that maybe it's for 30 days, maybe it's for 60 days, they can't pull permits in Collier County. I think a statement's got to be made. Again, five permits all in the city? Not a coincidence. MR. JOSLIN: If it was -- I think you're absolutely right. I think if it was just a fact of the license holder that's here before us today and the owner were one in the same person, it would be a different story, maybe we'd think a little differently. Page 64 September 17,2008 But now that we have a license holder and an owner and the owner isn't here to really stand up for his own company that he owns, it's like you, if it was my company, I'd have been standing tall, no matter who my license holder was. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Somebody give me a motion, we'll see which way it goes. We're kind of split. MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion. I'll make a motion that we suspend his permit pulling privileges in Collier County for the next 30 days. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This also includes City of Naples? MR. JOSLIN: City of Naples, Marco Island. And that this case be forwarded to the State Licensing Board for investigation. And recommend a fine be imposed of $5,000. And also to say that if at any moment if this company, which is New Code Windows and Doors, Inc., or the license holder ofR. Michael McNeal are found in the City of Naples, Marco Island or Collier County doing work here, that his license in Collier County is immediately revoked. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You can't do that. You can't revoke a state license. MR. JOSLIN: No, we can take his compo card, no? MR. NEALE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. MR. HERRIMAN: No, you can just take away his privileges of pulling permits -- MR. L YKOS: You can suspend his permit pulling privileges. MR. JOSLIN: Then I'll amend it to say that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So suspension of permit pulling privileges. MR. JOSLIN: 30 days. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: For 30 days? MR. JOSLIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: $5,000 fine. Page 65 September 17, 2008 MR. JOSLIN: Recommended to the state-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Recommend to the state. Investigative costs? MR. JOSLIN: And administrative costs. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Of how much? MR. JOSLIN: We can't set those, can we? MR. NEALE: No, that has to be proven. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: To the state. MR. NEALE: You have to put evidence on them. The county would have the opportunity to put the evidence on -- MR. JOSLIN: The case be forwarded to the state board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, what happens after 30 days? MR. HERRIMAN: We allow him to pull permits again and he'll be on probation. MR. JOSLIN: And after the 30-day period, ifhe has not been found in violation of anything that we've set so far, that his permit privileges be put on probation for six months. MR. BOYD: One year. MR. HERRIMAN: Yeah, one year. MR. BOYD: One year. MR. JOSLIN: One year? MR. BOYD: One year. MR. JOSLIN: One year. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you agree with this? MR. JOSLIN: I'll agree with it, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you got this? MR. JERULLE: Can I ask a question? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead, Terry. MR. JERULLE: If that passes, may I ask what his recourse in the next 30 days is? I mean, he can appeal our decision? MR. JOSLIN: Yes. MR. NEALE: He can appeal the decision. First appeal is to -- is Page 66 September 17, 2008 a motion for rehearing in front of this board. MR. JERULLE: Which we won't meet for another -- MR. NEALE: Which will be heard in 30 days. MR. JERULLE: In 30 days. Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: So what was that, Mr. Neale? I'm sorry, I didn't catch that. What was that last? MR. NEALE: Well, if he requests a -- if he appeals, the first line of appeal is a motion for rehearing with this board. That hearing would be heard at the -- that motion would be heard at the next board meeting, which is 30 days from now. MR. OSSORIO: Okay, thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So we want a 30-day suspension. After the 30 days, his permit pulling privileges will be reinstated. MR. JOSLIN: And placed on probation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Placed on probation. MR. JOSLIN: For a year. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: For one year. Probation meaning that he'll come back before this board; is that correct? MR. NEALE: The board can set the terms of the probation. What normally would be is he would operate under the supervision of staff. If they have any issues at that point, then it will be brought before the board for further review. CHAIRMAN LEFEBVRE: Or you can do revocation if there's a violation during that probation. MR. NEALE: You could if there's a violation during probation say that privileges are not suspended but they are revoked. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What do you want? MR. JOSLIN: I'd like to see them suspended first and then revoked if there's any other actions taken by him. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: After 30 days. MR. JOSLIN: After 30 days. Page 67 September 17, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And fine and turn it over to the state. MR. JOSLIN: Yes. MR. HERRIMAN: I second that motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, now discussion. MR. JOSLIN: Is 30 days long enough? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know. MR. JERULLE: I think that 30 days sets a message -- sends a message. MR. JOSLIN: Sixty I think would hurt him too much. Not that I'm not concerned about being hurt, but I don't want to see the company have contracts out here somewhere else and can't pay the bills. But it sends the message. MR. JERULLE: Do we want to discriminate between the city and the county, since he has been pulling permits in the county and hasn't in the city? Do we want to specify one or the other, or do we want to include -- MR. L YKOS: I think you include the whole county. MR. JOSLIN: The motion includes the City of Marco, Naples and Collier. MR. BOYD: The motion includes -- MR. JOSLIN: All the jurisdictions. MR. JERULLE: Can he apply for the permits -- MR. L YKOS: So it will sting more -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Whoa, whoa, whoa, one at a time. MR. GUITE': Can he apply for permits and just not be issued until after the 30 days? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, he could apply. MR. JOSLIN: Sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They're just not going to be issued. MR. GUITE': Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They take five or six weeks. They'll be ready when he's clean. Page 68 September 17,2008 MR. JERULLE: Is that true, Michael, you can apply if you're -- MR. OSSORIO: I would say Mr. Dickson's correct. He can apply for a building permit, he just can't be issued a building permit. MR. JOSLIN: Now, that might not be correct. Maybe someone from the City of Naples can verity that. But I think you have to have a valid license active in order to begin the process of a permit. MR. OSSORIO: No, not necessarily. Typically -- and I can't speak to the City of Naples, I can speak to Collier County, that if you're inactive, we will let you apply for a building permit but you can't -- we can't issue it until you become active and current. MR. JOSLIN: I think we better check that close, because I'm pretty sure now they have rules that if your license is on hold you can't get inspections, you can't do anything. MR. OSSORIO: Oh, you're absolutely right. But you can't get inspections without having something issued. MR. JOSLIN: I'm not sure ifhe can be-- MR. NEALE: But, the thing is, this doesn't affect his license at all. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This is not his license. MR. NEALE: His license is not on hold, his license is still active. All it does is affect his permit pulling privileges in Collier County, City of Naples and City of Marco Island. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And it does not revoke any current permits. MR. NEALE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He can still get inspections on those. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. MR. L YKOS : Well, I don't like the fact that he can apply for permits. If it takes three weeks to get a permit, that makes this a one-week penalty. That's no good. MR. NEALE: Well, no, it does suspend his permit pulling privileges. Page 69 September 17, 2008 MR. L YKOS: For 30 days. But the point is, ifit takes three weeks to get a permit, then it really becomes a one-week penalty. Because one week into the suspension he can go apply for a permit and the day the suspension's over he can pick up his permit ready for pick up. MR. JERULLE: That's -- you're correct, moving forward, you're correct. But he may have already applied for permits. Well -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There's gaps. MR. JERULLE: -- hopefully he's applied for permits that he will not be able to pick up in the next 30 days. MR. NEALE: He could have applications in process that he could not pick up because of this sanction. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There's a 30-day gap there. More discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Everyone clear on the motion? Yeah? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let's call it for a vote. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's unanimous. Mr. McNeal, responding some more legalese here. R. Michael McNeal is the holder of record, License No. Page 70 September 17,2008 CGC-059099, the Board of County Commissioners of Collier County, Florida is the complainant in this matter. Number three, the board has jurisdiction -- I'm sorry, I skipped from one to three. The board has jurisdiction of the person of the respondent and that R. Michael McNeal was here, present at the hearing and was not represented by counsel at the hearing on this date, September 17th, 2008. Number four, all notices required by Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105 as amended have been properly issued and were personally delivered. Number five, the respondent acted in a manner that is in violation of Collier County ordinances and is the one who committed the act. Number six, that the allegations of fact as set forth in the administrative complaint as to 4.2.2, willfully violating applicable building codes or laws of the state, City of Collier County (sic) are found to be supported by the evidence presented at the hearing. Conclusion of law. Alleged and set forth in the administrative complaint as to the Count 4.2.2 are approved, adopted and incorporated herein. To wit: The respondent violated Section 4.2.2 of Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105, as amended, in the performance of a contracting business in Collier County by acting in violation set out in the administrative complaint with particularity. Order of the board: Based upon the foregoing findings of fact, conclusion of law, and pursuant to the authority granted in Chapter 489, Florida Statutes, and Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105 as amended by a vote of eight in favor and zero opposed, a majority of the board members present, the respondent has been found in violation as set out above. Further, it's hereby ordered by a vote of eight in favor and zero opposed, a majority of the board members present, that the following disciplinary sanction and related order are hereby imposed upon the Page 71 September 17, 2008 holder of Collier County contractor's -- or State License CGC-059099, to wit: That permit pulling privileges are suspended for 30 days from today for the next 30 days. Permit pulling privileges will be on probation for the next one year after that 30 days. And this will be turned to the state for their review and action. MR. NEALE: There needs to be the recommendation to the state. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Recommendation to the state is a maximum fine and $1,000 investigative cost for this board. Okay, are you clear on what we've done? MR. McNEAL: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We were harsh. MR. McNEAL: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We started to be harsher. MR. McNEAL: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're somewhere in the middle. But given the gravity of your business, we were quite serious. MR. McNEAL: I understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay? So pass that on to your owner. If he has Collier County cable, he can watch this tonight on television and see what happened. So they do a replay. So we wish you well, we hope you do go forward and there's no more trouble. MR. McNEAL: There will be none, and there would have been none without this reprimand. But I understand the situation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. We wish you well. MR. McNEAL: Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. I'm going to push forward. I know that there's probably some wanting a break, but I don't see the next case. MR. OSSORIO: That's right, Mr. Chairman. The next case is 2008-14, Damian Sharp, has been dismissed. Page 72 September 17, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Been dismissed. So we get to talk to Sergio. Sergio, would you come up here. MR. GONZALEZ: Good morning, all. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning. MR. L YKOS: Morning, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You want to introduce Sergio? Gentlemen, thank you from the city. MR. MARIANNINO: You're welcome. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You want to introduce Sergio? MR. OSSORIO: I do. Mr. Sergio Gonzalez, MSIT. Sergio Gonzalez is well known in Miami. He is the Supervisor or the Regional Manager for the Department of Business & Professional Regulations. We work close with his office in Fort Myers. He's a 17-year veteran of Miami-Dade Police Department in Miami. He has a Master's Degree. And I welcome him here to talk to the board. And if you could, discuss a little bit about what the State's doing, how the State's doing in their investigations and how does a local licensing board fit into the State Licensing Board versus complaints. MR. GONZALEZ: Okay. I don't know how many of you know exactly what DBPR is. And I'll give you just a little brief before I go into that. Because there are some misconceptions. DBPR is divided into several divisions. Our division is particularly that of regulation. That means that we actually investigate licensed and unlicensed claims of wrong-doings. The unlicensed part of course, we go after them in many ways, which actually is beneficial to the city as well as the county as well as us. The unlicensed, if they advertise, it's $1,000 automatically. There's no financial harm. Second, if we have a contract with an unlicensed individual that Page 73 September 17, 2008 no financial harm's been done, it's $2,500 off the bat. They can dispute the citation. However, that citation, if disputable, the fines can go from $5,000 to $10,000 if found guilty. Flat out. There's no ifs, ands or buts. Second of all, with the unlicensed person, we go ahead and submit it to the State Attorney's Office. We have had great success over the last two years in prosecuting a lot of the unlicensed people. Some have received a slap on the hand, but some others have received jail time and restitution to these individuals who they have taken monies from. One, I think it was about a year ago, had a gentleman that decided he was going to go ahead and pull some contracts, approximately 68 of them. At first it was determined -- somebody determined that it was a misdemeanor. Well, after we got ahold of it, we started looking at our administrative code and we started looking at the emergency executive orders that came out, and 10 and behold, they all became felonies. From 68 misdemeanors, they went to 68 felonies. And he was found guilty of all of them. So he's going to be in jail for I think a little while. So that's to give you that part of it. Now, the other part of it. As far as part of the Department of Business & Professional Regulations and those that we regulate, we regulate 19 licensees, 19 different types of licenses. Everything from a vet, construction, electrical, geologists, community association managers. All these are all within the purview of my office. My investigators are, as you can tell, are well rounded in these areas to be able to address these factors. How does the county come into play? The county assists us quite a lot, because they are literally the people that are out there for us. They can see and they a lot of times refer to us unlicensed activity that we go ahead and act up on. Collier County's very, very good about doing that. We have Page 74 September 17, 2008 other counties that don't have the manpower, so they submit everybody to us, and we go after them via through advertisement or through actual contracts. You had talked about earlier with the owner/builder situation. The owner/builder situation is, as we were discussing earlier or I heard back and forth, is that if he's there, he's supervising. If he's not there, he's not supervising. If the owner is not paying -- is paying this individual and he's pulling FICA and has Workers' Compensation, no problem. But if he's not, that automatically -- it's an assumption that this person has entered into a contract either verbal or in writing and is being paid on the side, and as such constitutes an unlicensed contract. So we take that into consideration. Now, with regards to going after the homeowner, it's not likely in certain aspects. But where it is very, very likely, and we have several cases that we're developing at this moment where a homeowner has decided he's going to go ahead and fix up his house, he pulls an owner/builder's permit. He puts his house up for sale within three weeks of getting the permit and he sells it within that time. We obviously will go after him the first time. And chances are they'll get a slap on the hand. We follow it through. Let's say as an example now he buys another place and he does the exact same thing. We again go back to the process, now we're going after him not just on the administrative part, now we're going to go after him criminally as well. The first time we'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Our office will obtain all the information. We compile it, we send it up to the board -- or actually we send it up to our attorney's office of general counsel who will review it and determine probable cause, at which time it's presented. We were talking about earlier as far -- or as I heard from Mr. Dickson about the process with the licensing board. And from Mr. Page 75 September 17, 2008 Ossorio, They have picked up speed on it. So they are bringing them faster and faster to probable cause. What helps determine a lot is our speed down here of getting it to them. To give you a general idea as to why some of these things are speeding up is our office, when I first took it over about two years ago, we had a little bit over 500 cases. That meant a little bit over in just the regulation part, not to count the farm labor and the child labor cases, which are separate. That meant that each one of my investigators had approximately 135 cases on their workload. This is extremely hard to get moving within the 180 days that we would like it to leave. Because that way, at 180 days that means it can get up to the board that much faster. That means it can be assessed probably cause and go in front of the board. What we have done now is we've been able to bring it down from the 500-odd caseload that we have to a very manageable approximately 88 cases in the office. That means that we can turn around these cases much faster and they're going up in front of the board. For example, this case will come into our office, we will get it, we will turn it around and try to turn it around within three to four months, it's gone. It's going up to the OGC, which will determine probable cause and immediately put it on the docket for the probable cause panel -- or the board. So as you can see, we're trying to speed things up to assist the counties and the citizens in getting their just desserts. And these violations to be heard immediately, or as closely as possible to immediacy. Can I answer any questions? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're still in Lee County? MR. GONZALEZ: Yes. I handle -- my office handles everything from Sarasota to Naples, Highlands County and into Highlands County. So we handle eight counties. I make sure that I -- I try, let's put it this way, to make it to as many counties as possible, Page 76 September 17, 2008 either to the building departments, either by phone or physically going there to meet with the building departments to keep our presence out. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How are you doing -- I met Sergio a couple of years ago, and he's the best I've ever worked with. In fact, I recommend you get his card. I hope you brought enough. Good. But in my trade magazines, I see guys selling their licenses. All of you have got to be seeing it as well. I've been sending those up to him for the last couple of years, because it's always got an e-mail and a phone number for you to call. What have you been doing and what kind of success have you had with guys selling licenses? MR. GONZALEZ: A lot of times, believe it or not, they fess right up. They do. And we write them a $500 citation right off the bat. And then of course we keep them on an Excel spreadsheet where we check them as if anything comes in or we hear anything else or we see in a trade publication where his number's coming up, we're going to be calling him. Because the next one is no longer a citation, now it's a full investigation. And we will include the previous, because that's our foundation, if you want to call it, the precedent for continuing on. I'm sorry, I'm getting away from the microphone. I like to walk around a lot. This is like very restricting. But that's what we'll do. And that's what we are doing. We're passing it on -- anything that is given to me, that's sent to me via my e-mail or by fax is given over to my unlicensed activity person, if it's unlicensed. If it's licensed, I read it and I pass it on to one of my investigators for them to go ahead and issue a citation. Or if there is some gravity to it, then we'll go ahead and open an investigation against the individual. We actually look into all aspects of it to make sure that this person is being paid in a lot of those cases, the 1099 form, which is a no-no. Page 77 September 17, 2008 It's either -- in order for a person to qualify -- just a little background. In order for a person to qualify a corporation, he has to be one of two things: He either has to be a member of the board or has to be an employee -- I mean, not of the board, of the corporation, or an employee. An employee is not a 1099. An employee means that they will pull everything, workers' comp., they will pull insurance, they will pull FICA, they will pull everything, and he gets a check from that company, not on a 1099. So I go out and I give a lot of presentations. And one of the presentations that I do always to contractors is that same thing. A 1099 is not, is not, an employee of a company. He's working as a subcontractor, and as such that company we'll go after. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Anybody else? MR. OSSORIO: Sergio, how is the State Recovery Fund doing? Do you know anything about that? MR. GONZALEZ: Not really. And they really -- to be honest with you, they say it's hands off for us. MR. JOSLIN: I'd like to ask a quick question. I guess maybe I shouldn't or not, but I'm going to ask anyway. MR. GONZALEZ: Go ahead. MR. JOSLIN: With our licensing board that sits here now, made up of these nine (sic) people on the board, we're always restricted when it comes to a state-certified contractor. Is there any reason of why that happens? Because the way I see it, after being on this board this many years, the same laws and rules apply in Collier County as they do in the State of Florida. So what makes us not be able to penalize or restrict a state-certified contractor just because he's a state-certified contractor? MR. GONZALEZ: And that's why you just said it. Because he's a state-certified contractor. Were it be a registrant, you have full Page 78 September 17, 2008 authority over that individual. State statute is what mandates that. MR. JOSLIN: That's what mandates it. MR. GONZALEZ: Yes. And that's -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And there was a move to change that about -- how many years ago was it? MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, there was a House Bill a couple of years back. The CLOAF, Licensing Official Association sponsored the bill. And unfortunately we would try to get more jurisdiction with local boards but it was defeated before it even got to the full Senate due to the fact that unfortunately the lobbyists, the contractors association, the LAPUL (phonetic) Association -- I can give you the literature on it -- they actually stopped it before it even got to revoked. So we're talking about lobbyists. And unfortunately Sergio has really nothing to do with it. It's big business construction industry. And they like to home rule, have Tallahassee do all the work. MR. L YKOS: Mr. Gonzalez, if I could speak as a member of the Collier Building Industry Association, when we get a difficult market like this, a lot of our members complain about unlicensed activity and maybe people working outside of the restrictions of their license. And a lot of those complaints come to the officers of our association. And I'll call Michael and let him know when members get really vocal about some specific issue. It would be great if we could let our association know the kind of things that you are accomplishing. Is there a way that we could get a report or a quarterly letter or something that we can share with our members and see -- let them know that their officials at the county level and also at the state level and DBPR is doing its job? It may be great if we could give that information to our members. MR. GONZALEZ: We don't really have anything going out like that, but I would be more than glad to come in to any of your meetings and speak at your meetings. More than glad to. As a matter of fact, let me just, while we're doing this -- let me1 Page 79 September 17, 2008 pass out my card. Just so that I make sure that everybody gets one. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Lykos, there is a monthly report from the state newsletter, and I'll forward that to you. And also, there is also a monthly Construction Industry Licensing Board findings and facts. And that's throughout the state. So you might get four or five pages of contractors who went in front of -- when you go to the construction licensing board, they're going to see I don't know how many, you know, people -- Mr. Dickson's probably been there before, I'm not sure. But you'll see 34 contractors go one after the other. And then they post that on a web page. I think Mr. Dickson's given that once before, and I get it probably once a month. And I'll make sure we forward that to you. MR. L YKOS: That would be great. MR. OSSORIO: And also, on the licensing level locally, we have monthly reports: How much money we generated, how many citations we issue, how many people renew, how many people have been canceled, how many fines. And that's on a monthly basis as well, so that's something I can bring to the board. I think we did do it a couple of times because the licensing board was interested, they want to see what we were doing on a monthly -- but we haven't done in awhile. Maybe I'll bring that back. MR. L YKOS: Ifwe can bring that to our members on a monthly basis, even a quarterly basis, I think it will make people feel a little bit better that the unfair competition is being controlled as best as we can. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There is a newsletter. MR. JOSLIN: Isn't there something in the DBPR web page-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: -- where it lists all the activity or unlicensed work or activities -- MR. NEALE: You can get the findings of fact on the web page. MR. JOSLIN: Sure. MR. GONZALEZ: You just put the person's information in and Page 80 September 17,2008 you will receive all that information. Now, Mike was bringing up about the results of the board, the monthly board. If you all e-mail me, I'll make sure that I include you in my dispersal for that. I get them -- you know, I get them more or less at the same time that it's posted on the web. But if you don't have the time, at least you'll have it on your e-mail and you'll be able to read it. It's a Word document and I'll be able to give it to you with no problem. CHAIRMAN LEFEBVRE: And that's how I met Sergio, is he came to a Roofing Association meeting and spoke to us and that was the hot topic was unlicensed contractors. So yeah, you would enjoy having him. MR. GONZALEZ: We can assure you that if you give it -- if you send it to me, okay, be it -- let's say as an example you find someone out there that's doing unlicensed work or even if it's the signage on the vehicle is questionable, please send me a picture, the side of the van or the side of the truck, whatever it might be, a shot of the tag, and send it to us. I'll research it. Before I pass it on, I always look at all of it. I don't just pass it on. Because if I can address it right then and there, I will. If I find of course that there is some unlicensed activity, it immediately gets sent to my unlicensed person for them to look into it, acquire a case number. And if you do that, I will respond back to you. As a matter of fact, I'm going to make it a point that when anyone, anyone of you here or anyone that's in some of the conferences that I give provide me an e-mail and you send me something, I'm going to make it a point to show you the follow-up so that you know what is going on, at least either -- if it's unlicensed, I can give you a case number flat out. I can talk about those all day long. If it's -- I'm sorry, an unlicensed. If it's a licensed, I'm pretty much tight-lipped about it. And you're not going to pull anything out of me. Aside from the fact that Page 81 September 17, 2008 yeah, I received it. Because that's the way it has to be, unfortunately. Or fortunately. Because we do owe fiduciary responsibility to all licensees in the State of Florida, with one exception. Only one. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Attorneys. MR. NEALE: We're not regulated by them. MR. GONZALEZ: No, but we're trying to get them. MR. NEALE: I know, you keep trying. MR. GONZALEZ: Yeah, we keep trying, and hard. No, actually, believe it or not, it's community association managers. We can talk about them all day long. Statutorily we can talk about them all day long, which is rather nice. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Their communities do anyway. MR. GONZALEZ: Anything else, gentlemen? (N 0 response.) MR. L YKOS: Thank you for being here. We appreciate it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir. MR. GONZALEZ: It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Appreciate it. I'm just glad to hear that the State's catching up like they are. Because where that came was remember after Hurricane Andrew in Miami -- you were a cop then. You probably got some stories from Andrew to tell. MR. GONZALEZ: And then some. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But I had to go before the board in Miami. It was -- they had the wrong name, but I still had to go over there. And the county board in Miami, Dade County at the time was 25 or 2,600 cases behind. While we handled three cases today but two of them were dismissed. Imagine that kind of number. And then the state was behind as well. So it's good they are catching up. Anybody else got anything else? MR. NEALE: One piece of housekeeping is the new form and Page 82 September 17, 2008 format for the hearing order outline, you probably ought to adopt that as being part of the procedures of the board, if it's the board's pleasure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: A lot better than what I've had to do in the past. It's called Hearing Procedures and Order Outline Form as submitted September 17th, 2008. I move that that become standard procedure for reading at the conclusion of all cases before this board. MR. JOSLIN: Second the motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Can I get a copy of that? MR. JOSLIN: Yes, we should all have a copy of that. MR. NEALE: It will be in the minutes, because I gave it to the clerk, so she'll -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, okay. Next meeting date is what? MR. GUITE': 15th. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: October 15th? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, just to make sure you understand, it's going to be 609-610 Conference Room. It's not going to be in the Board of County Commissioners' chambers. It's down by Horseshoe Drive, and it's at 10:30, not 9:00. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Glad you said that. MR. JACKSON: That's October, November, December. MR. NEALE: All three months? Okay. Page 83 September 17, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 10:30, October 15th. MR. L YKOS: Then we're back here after that? MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, January 1st. Now, the only thing is, is that I know that from past experience that the Chairman likes to take off November or December, because one's Thanksgiving, one's Christmas. So we'll talk about that next meeting. MR. L YKOS: Is that the Community Development building? MR. OSSORIO: Exactly, 609-610. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where we've met before. MR. OSSORIO: Where we've met before. MR. JOSLIN: Right next to the inspections office, just down the hall. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, motion to adjourn? MR. L YKOS: So moved, Lykos. MR. JOSLIN: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Have a wonderful day. ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11 :25 a.m. Page 84 September 17, 2008 COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON, Chairman These minutes approved by the Board on as presented or as corrected TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. BY CHERIE' NOTTINGHAM Page 85