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CAC Backup Documents 08/14/2008 R /\v- ,'-' 'k'rn >10 : '~E,J , ~ I,,' ;, ~ , EXECUTIVE SUMMARY Recommendation to reject RFP #08-5068: "Physical and Biological Monitoring for Collier County Coastal Zone Management Projects for Coastal Zone Management OBJECTIVE: To receive Board approval to reject award of contracts and re-solicit the services with clarifications to the award and selection process in the best interests of the County and proposers. CONSIDERATIONS: Request for Proposal (RFP) #08-5068 was issued on April 2, 2008. Notices were sent to two hundred ninety one (291) firms and ninety one (91) firms requested an RFP package. Responses were received from four (4) firms by the due date of April 24, 2008. A selection committee was formed according to standard Purchasing Procedures and by consensus on May 29, 2008, recommended the following firms to be awarded a contract. 1. Coastal Planning and Engineering, Inc. 2. Coastal Engineering Consultants, Inc. 3. Humiston & Moore Engineers During the course of contract negotiations, it became evident that a clear understanding of the distribution of projects as well as the method for determining allocation of resources to the various projects was needed. Staff believes that in the best interests of all the proposers and to ensure the best quality projects for the County, the RFP should be re-solicited. To ensure timeliness in conducting the current, time sensitive physical and biological monitoring projects, until the new RFP can be awarded, staff will utilize the services on a work order by work order basis of the awarded firms under Contract 06-3902, "Fixed Term Professional Engineering Services for Coastal Zone Management Projects", which is active until May 2010. FISCAL IMPACT: There is no Fiscal Impact associated with this Executive Summary. GROWTH MANAGEMENT IMPACT: There is no Growth Management Impact associated with this Executive Summary. RECOMMENDATION: That the Board of County Commissioners reject RFP #08-5068 and approve re-solicitation of the services. PREPARED BY: Linda Jackson Best, Contract Specialist, Purchasing Department c \ ,,'J, \p~ ; l'r, ,r,. file' Ie' ., :'AgcndaTcstIEx ' ______ __ port,J J I-JuIY%2022 0, _ ,.0202008\ 16 0/ "OCO __ .'0_ NS '_ ENT%?()A('E _ . - J -NDA\1. 7/1512008 ---. Page I of I "\!FHFLJ Itc'.m No. : .5E8 '.jGa 2 .)!:Z COLLIER COUNTY 8CAi\D OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS Item Number: Item Summary: " " ,it ;1. . .1"1".'1' -:\1 Meeting Date: Approved By Oatu Gary McAlpin Cvst~l\ Project Man:lqer ;'812008 Cj:26 AM Pdb!ic Services CO~lstal Zone Man<lgetnOnt Approved By Date Scott Johnson Purchasing Agent 7j~12008 10:12 AM Administrative Services purchasing Approved By Date Mike Hauer Acquisition Manager 7.181200810:40 AM Administrative Services Purchasing Approved By D,lte \'like Hauer Acquisition Manager ;,'81200810:40 AM Administrative Services Purchasing Approved By Date Administrative Services Administrator rin/2008 8:07 AM Len Golden Price Administrative Servic(!S Administrative Sorvices Admin. Approved By Date Public Services Administrator 7''1/20089:48 AM Marla Ramsey Public S>Jr\'iCf')S Public Services Admin. Approved By :;;:ltc OMS Coordin.'.ltor ')MB Cc)ordin;l'or - "),'2001} ')' do2 PM '>J\111ty Miln,1qr:r'S Office Q'fiCl'~ of M;1"'lqwnent,~ B'JdCl.~t Approved By '"::', ,l'~ ,','i.1,q,i11Bnt & 3udqet J\I1:\ly';! ',;.:;")Cl8 H:12 ,:\M ',;\Ilra OJv::-;';,')!l ':'J<Hlty !J!,l;'HJ'~I'''' ()HiGC r~'f":f.~)f ',1,Hl,l(FHn.'nl ~ 131(1<':et Approved By " ,'D i.1'!"'':> v_ ,,~,;jd ,., 1 'i -;1, II' "\ (~ r ];j._ l;,"JI -J,~,1fdJt <:'>j:'~Y ,..1,'- ,q0r "; ',~'-~~',J.' - ':",'-' "',';;0 ....-:,.,; fi1c:i/C:\AgendaTest\Export\1I I_Ju\y'%2022,oj,,20200S\ \ 6.%20CONSENT%20AGENDA \1... ;;f',) ._"~---~"- -- 71\ 5/200S <I) From: Marcia Cravens <mrlc@mac.com> SlJ~Wd: Disbanding the Existing Clam Bay Work Team and sUb-commltteea W ('uate: AU9: 14, 200811:09:29AM EDT _'. To Marcia Cravens <mrlc@maccom> ~ --'"..---------.-- .," ~-----------~ From: McAI InGar <GaryMcAJpin@colliergov net> ate: u y 23, 2008 11 :20:36 AM EDT 0: reene 0 een <ColleenGreene@collierQov net>, hambrighCg <GailHambriQht@collieraov net>, rkatz9500@comcast net, Amanda <amende@tl/rrell-associates com>, Cathy Worley <kathyw@conservency org>. concol1@aol com, David Tomasko <DATomesko@pblli com>. davidbuser@comcestnet, difinlay@aol com Jeff Tabar <irtaber@pbsi com>. theriohtperson@msn com, John Sorey III <council@naplesQovcom>, Katie Laakkonen <klaekkonen@naplesQov com>, KeyesPamela <PameleKeyes@colliergov net>, lukasz_k <KyleLukasz@collieraov net>, Marsha Cravens <mrlc@mac com>, McAlpinGary <GarvMcAlpin@collien;jov net>. Mike Bauer <mbauer@naplesgovcom>, ochs.1 <LeoOchs@collierQov net>, thall@turrell-essociates com. Todd DeMunda <tidemunda@Dbsi com>, watkins_r <RhondeWatkins@collierQov net> Subject: Disbanding the Existing Clam Bay Work Team and sub-committees Clam Bay Work Team members and interested parties: Yesterday at the BCC meeting, the Board of County Commissioners established a Clam Bay Advisory Committee that will be appointed by the Board of County Commissioners and report to the Coastal Advisory Committee to address the management and operation of the entire Clam Bay Estuary. This committee will be made up of seven community members and will be tasked with addressing immediate permit issues, development of a master plan and focusing on the day to day operation of the estuary. The Advisory Committee will be convened for a one year pariod with the charter to make recommendations on how to proceed moving forward. An ordinance will be presented to the BCC authorizing the Advisory Committee in September and the County will start to solicit applications for appointment to this Advisory Committee. With this time frame, I anticipate the first meeting of this board will be in November or December 2008. With this direction from the Board of County Commissioners, we are disbanding the existing Clam Bay work teams and canceling all future meeting It will be up to the new Clam Bay Advisory Committee to continue or not continue the existing work teams. e forward this email to other intarested parties, J. Gary McAlpin, Director Coastal Zone Management 3300 Santa Barbara Blvd. Naples, Florida 34116 GaryMcA Ipinrti)("ollierrov.net (239) 252-5342 Fax: (239) 353-4061 --_._~-'-~-,-_. H. Recommendation to obtain direction and authorization on how to proceed with management of the Clam Bay Estuary. (Gary McAlpin, Coastal Zone Management Director) Motion to approve Agenda Option #3 for the development of the Clam Bay Advisory Committee; for the County Attorney to bring back an Ordinance establishing the Committee with appointments by the Board and reporting to the CAC - Approved 3/1 (Commissioner Henning opposed); Motion for members to include a resident from PBSD, Seagate, Naples Cay, District #1, District #3 and District #5 _ ApprOVed 4/0; Committee reviewed within one year to determine sunsetting _ Consensus (R) I. This item to be heard at 11:00 a.m. Request and Recommend the BCC Declare an Economic Emergency Situation and Approve Expenditure of Tourist Development Tax Emergency Advertising Funds for International and Domestic Market Promotion in FY 08 Totaling $476,300 and in FY 09 in the amount of$738,650. (Jack Wert, Tourism Director) Resolution 2008-222: Motion to expend funds as presented by staff Adopted - 4/0 J. This item to be heard at 11:00 a.m. Recommend Approval of Change Order #1 in the amount of$700,000 on Contract 06-4007 with Paradise Advertising & Marketing, Inc for additional billing over $2,000,000. (Jack Wert, Tourism Director) Approved - 4/0 K. Recommendation to approve a Resolution approving and authorizing the Chairman of the Board of County Commissioners to execute a Local Agency Program Agreement with the Florida Department of Transportation, which Agreement implements up to $750,000 for the design and construction of Dynamic Message Signs by Collier County, with reimbursement by the Florida Department of Transportation. (Bob Tipton, Traffic Operations Director) Resolution 2008-228 Adopted - 4/0 Page II July 22, 2008 _._---~.~_.._.._-.._-_..,..~..,."'._>_._,-- CAC August 14. 2008 New Business VIlI+ 1 of 14 @ Executive Summary Recommendation that the Board of County Commissioners provide staff' direction and authorization on how to proceed with management of' the Clam Bay Estuary. /) ji),' It /1' \\1 i) ," '" Pt Obiective: Request that the Board of County Commissioners provide staff direction and authorization on how to proceed with management of the Clam Bay Estuary. (-' , ''I ( . .\ Considerations: At the June 24, 200S. Board of Couuty Commissioners' meeting, staff was directed to develop a proposal I(lI' the County wide mauagement of Ihe Clam Bay Estuary, Direction was given that this Estuary he managed for the henefit of all the citizens of Collier County and not one individual neighborhood, organization or municipality. This management plan \\iould be incJusive of the entire estuary and he Illanagcd/reprcsented hy surrounding municipalities and stakeholders. ,/ Coastal Zone Management stan along with the County Manager's Office considered three options in developing this management plan. They arc: I, Option I would develop a Clam Bay Advisory Committee appointed hy the Board of County Commissioners and reporting directly to the Board of County Commissioners. 2. Option 2 would place the management of the Clam Bay estuary directly under the control of the Coastal Advisory Committee (CAC), and 3. Option 3 would develop a Clam Bay Advisory Committee appointed hy the Board of County Commissioners but reporting directly to the Coastal Advisory Committee. , z )- . i\ I'Y ,/ ,:' V,/" '/ // / While all three options could work successfully, staff is in t"vor of a separate Clam Bay Advisory Committee appointed hy the Board of County Commissioners and reporting directly to the Coastal Advisory Committee, This organization would place the ovcrsi)!ht of this estuary in a highly respected hoard while at the same time allowing a focused management with the directly affected stakeholders. The Coastal Advisory Committee was created under Ordinance 2001-03 in Fehruary 200 I to advise and make recommendations to the Board of County COllnnissioners in malleI'S pertaining to Coastal Zone Management policies including COlls[a! and estuarillt' hahita! protection and reslOrariof1 (Section l)). The Coastal Advisory Committee is an established and respected cross County hoard WIth a history of dealing with difficult issues fairly. The Board includes three mcmhers from the County: three from the City of Naples, and three from the City of Marco Island. ~kj A Clam Bay Advisory Committee would he specifically fo('[!Sed to deal with the specific issues of Clam Hay. Staff recommends a seven member cOlluuiUce that \vould make recolllmendations to the Coastal Advisory COlllmittee and Board of County Commissioners 011 the management of the Clam Bay Estuary and would inclljde th,Jo~o\y}ng mcmhers: ",' _..,,'.,.:' ) ,f, " ,',', ' /3(//)(, ,1,,' ,e)(,l.../~: ",p ('/iC ,+ /l!r,'.//AI.'I.~, ..' P'!'AtJf,;,' l;1A f J fl(ll;;(/'~./;;, / " /}/l ,,' f< ' '. (_ .. _.~f ,.,' 1,'J:/i~'>' ;t/li l' .'.Ji ///f/lo'?l'~' ~l _. ;'/{.:'/<rl;i/ tJ JA~:c).,!r.,j /);,~~,.( .';'" /~ ,.>':. / '/' I '-./.t.. t"(' r '1...1 I (l "') a O~.A. c.i .", !"-' P'ti,lt:..(LC'ttLLy'<' ?4'" ,;( c:..~":" ,'V" , ,',y., tJ. , , ;1./"./, /)1:#,'" I' /.> " C (j)-'tyP/(jJ pl;'/l.J(.N' ~..L("./.I..,I",,' iI) . /L-', V "- . .^......,_._..._,.._.._-~'--_._._~..~---~------~~_..-,,~._~,~.,--,."_._.._._- ~ Frum: hambriaht.9 <GaiIHambright@colliergov,net> Sublect: Public Records Requeat Oatc: July 2,200812:22:13 PM EDT Cc. MartelloSanara <SandraMartello@colliergov.net>, colli~m <MarianColli@colliergov.net>. GrimshawHeather <HeatherGrimshaw@colliergov,net>, McAlpinGary <GaryMcAlpin@colliergov.net> ,.'1 Attachment, 8.8 KB Save. S1doohow "Our offioe has received a public records request from the Collier County Sheriffls Office, for copies of the fOllowing documents: * Any and all documents that authorized and/or memorialized the creation of the fOllowing organizations: * Coastal Advisory Committee * Clam Bay Discussion Committee * Clam Bay Discussion Committee's Work Groups (1-9) * Any and all documents that pertain to missions and/or goals of the aforementioned organizations. * All minutes of the aforementioned organizations. * Any and all notes, memorandums, recordings made during meetings of the aforementioned organizations and held by any and all members of the aforementioned organizations. * Any and all reports, recommendations created on behalf of the aforementioned organizations. * Any and all correspondence generated and/or received by the aforementioned organizations (including but not limited to letter and e-mails. Please send all responsive documents and records to my office as soon as possible. After review and/or copying by the Sheriff, they will be returned to you. If you do not have documents that are responsive to this request, I will need a statement to that effect in writing. Please remember that Public Records Requests must be responded to quickly pursuant to Chapter 119, Florida Statutes." I will be out of the office for the next 2 weeks. Please forward responses to Sandra Martello in our office. You can a-mail her at sandramartAlloAcollieraov net Thank you in advance for your attention to this matter. Gail D. Hambright, Tourist Tax Coordinator C'oasta! Zone rAanagement 3300 Santa Barbara Blvd. Naplea, Florida 34116 Phone: (239) 252-2966 Fax: (239) 353-4061 "4:.1" J,..:;-- v.. rEJ TRANSCRWf OF THE MEETING OF THE PELICAN BAY SERVICES DlVlSION NAPLES, FLORIDA, MAY 7,2008 LET IT BE KNOWN, that the Pelican Bay Services Division Board, in and for the County of eollier, having conducted business herein, met in Regular Session on May 7, 2008 at 1:00 p.m. at Hammock Oak Center, 8%0 Hammock Oak Drive, Naples, Florida, with the following members present: eoleman Connell, ehairman Robert Pendergrass John Domenie Michael Levy Ted Raia (arrived 5 mins. late) Annette Alvarez (Excused Absence) John laizzo M. James Burke Mary Anne Womble John Boland Ed Staros (Excused Absence) ALSO PRESENT: John Petty, Administrator, Pelican Bay Services Division; Janice Lamed, District Offices, LLC; Kyle Lukasz, Field Operations Manager, Pelican Bay Services Division; Tim Hall, Turrell, Hall and Associates, Inc,; Gary McAlpin, Collier County eoastal Zone Management; Jim Hoppensteadt, President, Pelican Bay Foundation; Doug Finlay, City of Naples; and Barbara Smith, Recording Secretary, Pelican Bay Services Division. AGENDA 1. 2. 3, 4. RollCall Approval of Minutes of the April 2, 2008 Meeting Audience Participation Chairman's Report Board ofeounty eommissioner's action concerning a new Clam Bay Permit Application Status of Revised Permit Application One year Agreement for Professional Administrative Services Pending Invoices from District Offices Budget Committee Meeting 4/22/2008 Foundation Strategic Planning eommittee, Mary Anne Womble Clam Bay Estuary Improvement Discussion Group eommittee Reports .......- Clam Bay Committee ReIIOl't ~ .', k'l ~vl\'" {It:h.F'f Lqf' ie, Q-J\. W 7.)<'06 ~ 73)J; ,~.fk~' f?\~~ . 5. 7339 Pelican Bay Set'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 New Clam Bay Permit Application (Included in Chairman's Report) Clam Bay Estuary Improvement Discussion Group (Included in Chairman's Report) Budget Committee Budget eommittee Meeting 4;22-2008 (Included in Chainnan's Repoit) Govet'nment Relations Clam Bay Update (Induded in Chairman's Report) Vanderbilt Pier Update 6, Administrator's Repon General Comments Jean Smith Status Capital Pl'OjecIs Median Improvements - Myra Janco Daniels Boulevard Sidewalk Lightmg - Myra Janco Daniels Blvd & Vanderbilt Beach Road Community Issues Discussion and vote on the position of the PBSD on the proposed pier at Vanderbilt Beach Road (Dr. Ted Raia) Stop Sign Policy (Jim Burke) Plan Reviews None 7. Committee Requests 8, Audience eomments 9, Adjourn ROLLCALL COLEMAN eONNELL I Will call the meeting to order, please. Good aftemoon, everyone. We will call the role 1\.15 Smith') BARBARA SMITH: Let the record reflect all members are present, with the exception of Ms. Alvarez; 1\.1r. Staros, with excused absences; and Dr. Raia, who may be running late today COLEIVIAN CONNELL Thank you, We have the minutes of April 2. our last meeting. You each have a copy, Does anyone have any corrections or additions? MARY ANNE WOMBLE ! do, COLEMAN CONNELL Go right ahead MARY ANNE WOMBLE' Okay, Let's see, On Page 7278 where :vis, Estelle Fishbein is speaking, I thll1k that's a lypO on her mml\!. ilk spelimg BlEi, ,""'IS. I appreciate that. I would Just like to -, ' Pelican Bay Senices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 pose my address to -- I think that was close. Page 7289, there are two reference; to a "Dr. Baiser.o I believe its Buser. BARBARA SMT1H: I have that. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Okay. And then on Page 7309, there are some typos there. You can strike one whole sentence from something that I was speaking, Do you want me to just show it to you later? BARBARA SMITH: Yes please. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Okay. I think that's it. COLEMAN CONNELL: Thank you. Anyone else? I think that's it. May I have a motion to approve the minutes as corrected? ROBERT PENDERGRASS: So moved. COLEMAN CONNELL: All in favor? Against? earried. Thank you. Mr. Robett Pendergrass moved to approve the m;lIIdes ,,"bject to the above referenced changes and/or co"ections. Mution was unanimously approved. Before we move on to the speakers from the audience, I would mention that County counsel is not with us today. Maybe, not only is she not with us today, but she will not be with us in coming meetings, unless there is a specific matter which would require her participation. This, I am told, is all part of the County's budget constraints. In addition, we are finding that we are part oftha!, so I'm hopeful anyway, that in advance of a meeting, we would know that there was something that would require her participation and she will be here. With that, we will move on to audience participation. We ask that you come to the microphone, please, that you state your lIame and where you live, and if it's a name more complex than "Smith,O wouJdyou, please, spell it. Yes, sir? AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION 7341 Pelican Bay Services Dh'ision Meeting Mav 7. 2008 DONALD SPANIER: For the record, mv name is Donald Spanier, S-P-A-N-I-E-R, not Smith I reside on the property at &12 Pitch Apple Lane 111 the Oakland section, t address you on a nonpolitical matter Particularly, I want to address my remarks to \1'0, Womble and to you, eoleman, On Oakmont Parkway, which abuts the gnd of streets, we have an extremely dangerous situation that has led, in the last two months, to several near automobile accidents with pedestrians and their dogs. Around dusk or evening, the street is not adequately illuminated and there IS no safe place to walk I know that we have a problem with the electrical system in Pelican Bay, but since, and this is addressed to Ms. Womble, since there are a large number of people and consultants now engaged m hying to identifY the needed changes and strategic problems in the commumty, I would like this board to convey to the appropriate committees and their consultants on this condition. and request that on a high priority, the rewiring of the entire community be undertaken, which now, as we know. is past twenty-five years old, and adequate capacity be installed to illuminate the streets that now, I believe, are serious dangers to the lives and safety of residents. Thank you very much for your attention. COLEMAN eONNELL \nyonc have any questIons of Mr Spanier~ Is there a particular area that perhaps is presenting more of a danger to the community" DONALD SPANIER: Yes The entire length ofOakmont Park is quite literally called a parkway, the way through the park. It is not an octagonal street It is a winding street with many blind turns, and, of course, shrubbery, which is maintamed by people. but it is an imp0l1ant impediment I would really like to say that if you wanted to undertake this project. that a competent electrical engineer and lighting expert survey the community. unless more pm1ners or whoever is mIming the conservation has that capability, so that proper specifications and conective actions Lan be dra\vTL before \\ihatever money is going to be raised with the next special assessment i assume it', ail permitted lVi. JAMES BURKE ~vk Chairman. Ihis ct.clS back fO (he proposal that I had made to the budget Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 committee about allocating funds for us to do a complete engineering study of all of Pelican Bay, and the movement of people and things, and the lighting and the whole works. So I don't think that's the only area that has that danger. I think there are others. TED RAJA: Mr. Chairman, the problem on Oakmont is that even when we put the lighting there, the people are still going to have to walk in the street. There are no sidewalks there. Pelican Bay was approved with no sidewalk at Oakmont, because the pathway around the lake there was supposed to be the sidewalk. I have no opposition to lighting the area, but it's not going to solve the walking the street problem. While we do that, we should consider widening that path. I think it was somewhat unilaterally excluding bikers at that time. I think that the more sensible thing to have done was to exclude biking before 10:00. However, at any rate, it is dangerous for pedestrians, bikers, and everything. eOLEMAN eONNELL: Well, my point is: Oakmont, by itself, is something that is in such dire straights, as far as lighting is concerned, that it could merit Just looking at that particular part of the communitY, or is it because of the electrical grid and just simply wouldn't work? Anyone know the answer to that? DONALD SPANIER: Mr. eonnell, I have been a ten-year resident, as many of us have been. I have driven all of these streets, particularly residential neighborhoods, because they have a bearing on the value of my property. There are many areas like that, and I agree with Dr. Raia. It's the reason why I emphasize these are the fIrst steps toward focusing the attention of our current consultants on this issue, and either requesting or ordering them or retaining appropriate consultants to survey the lighting conditions throughout the community. There are many Oakmonts, there really are, M JAMES BURKE: We can't fix this at this meeting. There is no doubt about it, but you hear all of this Band-Aid stuff. In addition, Ted says, you know, put sidewalks in, put a light in, or let's put bike lanes in, I have said from the beginning, this is a bigger issue than just a Band-Aid here or a Band-Aid 7343 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 there, The more we delay it. the worse it's going to get so" JOHN IAIZZO: So I recommend that we bring in the cDntractors, one or two, and we can question them or talk to them and address the problems, and get some costs for the total cOl11munity'J Possibly if not the total community, spot problems that we're going to resolve and get that price back to the residents, and make that decision Because this is beyond the board's ability to make that decision, the final decision. think it has to go to the residents with a dollar figure. eOLEMAN eONNELL It's a fme idea to have put it within the province of the Strategic Planning eommittee, but that, in my Judgment, would simply prolong getting an answer, I think this is a singular problem and it should be dealt with as such. We select someone to come back with a recommendation to us I would ask the staff to come back with that sort of recommendation; not necessarily, who does it, but with some solution of this problem at the next meeting; is that a reasonable request? JOHN PETTY: I wish It were. I would be glad to comply because I don't have an issue with what the lighting is We did have the expert, We had the electrical design engineer that did our system, Mr, Hassell (Phonetic) I think that's how you pronounce his name come to our meeting, He did a light survey on Pelican Bay Boulevard, you may recall, and talked about how some of the light was being blocked by landscaping. However, generally speaking, the system was doing as designed, When we talk about unsafe conditions, these are our perceptions There is no set standard for candlepower, so to speak, in a single-family area or in an area that has the parkway at the end of it These are all what the residents want, okay? If the residents want higher wattage or higher lamps, if they feel safer that way, then I think we should look into doing that That goes back to Mr. Burke's suggestion of having a study done to come to some determination. That's why I can't reasonably' give you a solution, because I don't know what the answer is, The answer may be higher wattage; spacing: where they are now, which means there may be gaps, or a different spacmg concept on the lights so there is an overlap. A.gain, that's why staff isn't able to ,~' '-t. "::; Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 answer the question, because it is one that the residents must decide. It is one of quality of life versus engineering. How bright do you wish it to be? DONALD SPANIER: That statement is not quite correct. There are standards published by the American Society of Illuminating Engineers. I have seen them and examined them. There are also guidelines that the federal government maintains and disseminates that have to do with adequate candlepower all over the nation And, I think, again we need to be in the hands of a true expert, not a kibi1zer who may have... . JOHN PETTY: I mean, I'm sorry; [ call110t put up with the "kibitzer" when we're talking about an electrical engineer who designed our systern and has been with us.. DONALD SPANIER: I wish you would not interrupt me I have the floor And I think the Chair will control your comments. My choice of vocabulary is not yours. If there is a report of some sort, I have not seen it, other members of the board may have. As a resident, I would like to examine it. However, I call110t acCept the inaccuracy that this is simply a matter of the preference of the residents. Thank you. COLEMAN CONNELL: Thank you, Don. M. JAMES BURKE: It's a bigger issue than the lighting. Believe me. J, mean we have Pelican Bay.. JOHN PETIY: Mr. Chairman, if there is a standard that I have failed to see or I have missed, staff would be glad to comply with any deficiencies that are founded. And, all we're looking for is to be made aware of the deficiencies with the service provided, and we will try to make corrections. For that, I can't respond to the board, but I am aware of no deficiencies at this time. JOHN DOMENIE: John, I think what affects it also is the density of the vegetation along that stretch and that probably effects it. But I thought that Jim Burke had a solution. If we had somebody come in and make a study about that, how much would it cost, and how long would it take, I'm not talking about 7345 Pelican Bay Set'vices Division Meeting Mav 7, 2008 all of Pelican Bay. I'm talking about the section of Oakmont Parkway there, because it is the darkest section, as far as llmow. in Pelican Bay, MleHAEL LEVY: But isn't that a section without sidewalks there? JOHN DOMENlE lbat's right MICHAEL LEVY: So it's not a good section to be walking on or \valking dogs on at night, and you know, you can go down Pelican Bay Boulevard at night and you can see the sidewalk, but there cerlainly isn't much light I mean, I think the lighting is similar all over Pelican Bay, You can find your way around, but it cerlainly isn't bright, and it is probably nice to have soft lights. Some people might like that But the problem here seems to be that walkmg a dog in the street on a through road, with no sidewalks, is probably not a good idea. eOLEMAN eON NELL: Thank you, Well, we are not going to solve it here today. Again, I'm going to ask staff to look at thIS. I don't expect you to come back with a comprehensive recommendation, but at leasf let's start the framework now and resolve this problem. MARY ANNE WOMBLE I can add something to that The Strategic Planning eommittee has brought that consideration up about different lighting and possibly more lighting, less lighting, and that's something that they are going to the community about JOHN PETTY: tvlr. ehauman, again, we will do the best we can. But let me remind the board that we did this issue. We had the engineer here, and staff asked the board to allocate funds so these options could be laid out by an electncal engineer, as they are reqUIred to under the building code, I believe, and the board declined to fund it So I really do wish to follow the direction of the ehalr. I'm just trying to figure out how I do that COLEMAN CONNELL: ,-\.iI nght Actually. I'm trying to bnng this to a conclusion at this point so I will stay in touch with you ~, " Pelican Bay Sel'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 JOHN PE1TY: Thank you. COLEMAN eONNELL: Moving on. Anyone else in the audience have something to say? SELMA PETKER: Selma Petker, Bridgeway. I understand that there will be a report about the median, and our lighting on MJD Boulevard, and I wonder if that could be early on your agenda? eOLEMAN CONNELL: You would like to read this, is that what you're __ SELMA PETKER: At some point. eOLEMAN eONNELL: Kyle, would you like to update us on that particular project? KYLE LUKASZ: Included in your package was an update on the capital projects or what we called the RSK projects. The Bollard lighting on MJD, the median modification on Vanderbilt Beach Road. I do have all of the permits in place to start that work, although we still need the easement over on Myra Janco Daniels Boulevard to bring power out there. Also included is the outline of where we are as far as budgeting goes. It's included in your Power Point. We're about $57,000 short. We need the additional funds authorized mainly for the easements and where the power supplies have had to come from, to provide power for the lights. Some of it's permitting, but with the locations of the electric, it's increased the engineering. It has increased the construction costs, and it all has an effect on the plumbing costs. eOLEMAN CONNELL: If evel)1hing went according to schedule, and I'm sure it won't, Kyle, what is the earliest you would think we would have this project finished? KYLE LUKASZ. Well, there are sufficient funds to go ahead and proceed with the median modification. Like I said, I have the pennits in place. And I also have the proposals to go ahead and open up contracts to begin that work. The Bollard lights on Myra Janco Daniels, I estimate that's going to take 60 to 90 days to get those in place. So you're probably looking August to September before we begin that work. The Bollard lighting on Vanderbilt, again, we're ready to start that. I have the proposal to do the work. We have the permit. We just want to get the additional funds authorized that we need to have to start that work 7347 Pelican Bay Se.-vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 And it would be a matter of whether the board decided they wanted to do a budget amendment for the funds or they wanted to possibly budget the funds of next year's fiscal. fiscal year '09 budget, of which the funds would be available in October, 10 order to complete the work then. eOLEMAN eONNELL: I'm sure we can work our "vay through this. Would it be unreasonable to say that with all things going well, it could be done by the first of December? KYLE LUKASZ: Yes, I would say actually by, except for the funding, everything would be completed by the end of October eOLEMAN eONNELL: Thank you, MIeHAEL LEVY: You know, I would like to talk to the Vanderbilt Beach lighting for a minute. COLEMAN CONNELL: Yes MleHAEL LEVY: My understanding was that that came up because there was a series of thefts gomg on in the community of Breakwater. And, that there was suspicion that it was through that gate onto Vanderbilf Beach Road. And it's my understanding that those crimes have been solved. It was essentially that there were workers who were in Breakaway who were committing the thefts. This gate had nothing to do with it. I have to say I took a walk down there last night, and that gate has a very bright light right on the inside of the community. It's a very bright light. It's lights that are enormous, If you walk from the park to that gate, the lighting on that road is every bit as good as the lighting on Pelican Bay Boulevard. So I guess I'm raising the question as to whether or not the need for that additional lighting is essentially gone now, since we're not having any kind of crime going on in that area~ eOLEMAN eONNELL: Well, when this was first brought to us, one of the Justifications for improving the lighting was particularly towards Vanderbilt Beach Road And some of the residents there claimed that homeless people were sleeping a long the wall there, ,c-\nd it made them uncomfortable for one thing. 7.3 4 ~:: Pelican Bay Sel'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 JOHN DOMENIE: It is not too well-lit if you walk the whole distance at night. And there is light on the north side of Vanderbilt, but there is no light on the south side and that's why that came up. MIeHAEL LEVY: But, you know, Pelican Bay Boulevard, the only place there is light is on the median. Well, the light is high on the other side of Vanderbilt Beach Road also. I mean, how long a stretch were these Bollard Iightings going to be? KYLE LUKASZ: They were going to go from North Point to the driveway down to the entry of the park. And they were the Bollard post-style sidewalk lights. MICHAEL LEVY: How many feet? How many feet? KYLE LUKASZ: 500 feet, I would say. MICHAEL LEVY: Why are we going all the way up to North Point? I mean, was the request so they could get into that gate. North Point is far. , , JOHN DOMENIE: The request was not for the gate, The request, basically, was for the whole way, to light up' that path along Vanderbilt Beach Road. It had nothing to do with the gate; the gate was not the issue at the time. I don't know where you got that impression KYLE LUKASZ: No. It was for the sidewalk adjacent to Breakwater, which, basically, goes from the corner of North Point and Vanderbilt Beach Road, down to the entrance into the park, or, actually, just short of the driveway into the park. MIeHAEL LEVY: Well, actually, if you continue on that sidewalk, it goes for a much longer stretch along Bay eommons. KYLE LUKASZ: Right. 1-- MICHAEL LEVY: I mean, why are we picking out one part of Vanderbilt Beach Road to illuminate? eOLEMAN CONNELL: Well, it was cited as a particularly dark area, between the trees and .. . . 7349 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7, 2008 MleHAEL LEVY 011. that's nothing, Ifvou thmk that's dark, you start going down the road along Bayeolony, You have dense foliage.. JOHN DOMENIE No, you don't Not to that extent at all I walk It regularly,. TED RAlA: Mr. ehairman? COLEMAN CONNELL Yes, TED RAlA: May I suggest that perhaps we do delay this? Why don't we really do a study of the whole Pelican Bay, come up with some standard for evel)'body, and solve it that way? J think Mike has made a legitimate statement He has trouble walking and looking at it And, apparently, the need really is not there. it's changed, We haven't spent the money yet, but there is an overall need to look at it Everybody is raising some question about lightmg, Let's look at the area and solve the problem. eOLEMAN eONNELL Well, did you wish to make a motion then to bring this to a halt, this particular -- TED RAJA: Yes, Yes 1\1 JAMES BURKE: I second it eOLEMAN eONNELL Is there any discussion? KYLE LUKASZ: And that was for the Bollard lighting on Vanderbilt Beach Road? eOLEMAN eONNELL That's correct Just that portion of it MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Are we -- are we holding up the discussion or was -- the procedure of what Kyle was going to do for the lighting, are we holding that only so we can go check on it or are we hanging it up for good no matter what? TED RAJA: Well, I'm not saying we are not going to do it I'm just saying that we're-- eOLEMAN CONNELL Oneal a time, please, TED RAJA: The whole area, we have standardized it And so let's look at the whole problem. 7..:';::: ,-, Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Thanks, JOHN DOMENIE: We have all the permitting in place, right? KYLE LUKASZ: Yes. lED RAIA: And we checked with power? KYLE LUKASZ: Yes. We have everything set. It's all designed. The permits are in place, and I have a proposal for the work. eOLEMAN CONNELL: See, at the time this was approved the property owners came and made a plausible plea for it. It was looked at and acted upon. Maybe they have cut some trees down or something since then, I didn't think that crime was the primaIy reason. It was just a very, very dark place to walk. There is lots of Bollard lighting throughout Pelican Bay, where the sidewalk kind of gets into a dark area. So keep it in mind that those people are going to have to be notified that we have changed our minds. We are holding it up indefinitely, because of the wait for an overall study,.. . JOHN IAIZZO: Kyle, have we started working on this so far? KYLE LUKASZ: It's not in the -- it's survey work. TED RAIA: How much? Ten percent maybe? KYLE LUKASZ: I would say $3,000, $4,000. JOHN IAIZZl: Now, what happens if we hold it, the permits are pending. , . KYLE LUKASK: The permit is good until the end of October. I'm sure that can be modified. JOHN IAIZZO: ean we hold those permits until October? KYLELUKASZ: Yes. COLEMAN eONNELL: Well, we are not going to have anymore of an answer by that time than we do right now. It seems to me maybe we have to take action. MIeHAEL LEVY: Well, if the homeowners feel strongly and come and restate their case, I mean, I 7351 Pelican Bay Se.'Vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 distinctly remember it being brought up in cOImection with crime. eOLEMAN CONNELL I know they had a problem with break-ins, but somebody had access to the keys We all remember that I say we table It until the ne"i meeting and we ask the staff to notifY, I cannot remember the gentleman's name in Breakwater. Well, the staff should really do that, and explain to them the discussion and that it's being held up. And if they would like to come to the next meeting and, once again. JustifY it as they did before, we will listen to them. And we will still stay within the confines of that permit; does that sound like a reasonable solution for now? Anyone? Did you want your motion to stand or will you wait until the next meeting? TED RAIA: I will table it until the next meeting. COLEMAN CONNELL: All right Thank you. Thank you. KYLE LUKASZ: So there would be sufficient funds to begin work on the median, to complete the work on the median modifications, but then you still have the Bollard lighting on Myra Janco Daniels? eOLEMAN eONNELL Right KYLE LUKASZ: There wouldn't be a $57.000 shortage. It would probably be about half of that We will go ahead and proceed ,-,ith that JOHN DOMENTE Are we going to go ahead then ,-,ith it, Mr. Chainnan? We have approved the $25,000 then? JOHN PETTY: Would you please define the cost for each project, the one that we have on hold, until we can notifY the group and bring back, at the next meeting, the Myra Daniels Road? Because it sounds like the Myra Daniels Road is over 100,000 or near 100,000 all by itself? KYLE LUKASZ: I don't have the exact figures on each one because it was budgeted as a whole JOHN PETTY WelL if we're $56,000 over, so it would almost have to be, or you think you're still going to be over, but Just, "7'::r::::'- Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 KYLE LUKASZ: Okay. After Myra. .. we would be fifty-six... ... with the completion of all three projects, we would be $56,000 short. If you take out the Bollard lighting on Vanderbilt Beach Road, it would probably take approximately $30,000 to complete the Bollard lighting on Myra Janco Daniels Road, as well as the median modification. JOHN PETrY: Kyle, can you tell us why were over our estimated budget? KYLE LUKASZ: A lot of it is tied with the power supplies, specifically, over on Myra Janco Daniels, we have to get an easement and that's the other thing I have been holding off until the board authorizes the additional funding, to process that, I have the survey in place, but to go ahead and process that easement that needs to come out of Tierra Mar. And in addition to the engineering work for survey and design, there are the additional construction costs to bring that service line out to Myra Janco. JOHN PETrY: Mr. ehairman, you may recall at the previous meeting, you talked about bringing the electrical line out Tierra Mar through the lake and over to the side of the road, which is something that I really couldn't recommend to you putting or starting to run electric lines across our water management and anything like that. And that we're looking at getting the electric from somewhere off of either Pelican Bay Boulevard or off of the side road there. I hope that's still out there as the cost. But, it still sounds to me that you have to consider the Myra Daniels Road as being the most costly lighting system here, and affecting the people from Bridgeway, who came before you not so long ago, asking for the improvement. So when you're looking at these cost overruns and what you may want to hold off for the future study, I'm pretty sure that the board was in agreement that the benefit to the people at Bridgeway was, indeed, outside of an area of a special study. I think everybody agrees they needed the improvement. And you may want to consider 'it and put the other two on hold until you have your study done or until you consider it, or at least give the groups time to come back to talk to me. eOLEMAN eONNELL: I think while we're at it, in fairness to everyone, that the Myra Janco 7353 Pelican Bay Sen-ices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 Daniels Boulevard Bollard lighting should have another look, too, Is it any darker than up on Vanderbilt Beacb Road, to our point should that be looked at again. JOHN PETTY: I want to be careful so I don't get into this matter any deeper. COLEMAN eONNELL Well, it becomes political after a while JOHN PETTY: It certainly does The Bollard lighting we have right now is not based on a darkness lightness factor Is it dark in some of the areas where we have Bollard lights? Yes. But it is also there, if not for a primary purpose, but for an equally good purpose of aesthetics. It is there at the primary entryway, if you will, at Pelican Bay, and that area has always been higWighted in some way or another, The original Bollard lights were circular and aluminum. It had those bands on them; do you remember them? They were in that area, And when Kyle came up with these, much better Bollard lights by the way, and they will last a lot longer, and improve that area. They started in that section and worked out of it. And we're putting them in sections, as the residents requested, more than it is a standard of lightness or darkness, It is more of request foimat. And we look at it as a neighborhood improvement, which is why I think we looked at it around the comer on Vanderbilt, versus Just by the gate, We're looking to how we can improve that part of the neighborhood. So in the past, we have looked at it as not only a helping hand to those that have difficulty seeing at dusk to take walks, but more for the aesthetic value of how it looks overall, as you drive by Pelican Bay. JOHN DOMENIE: Mr. ehairman, may I ask Kyle a question? eOLEMAN CONNELL eertamly, JOHN DOMENIE Kyle, what is going on at the wmer of Seagate and Myra Daniels? I thought that had to do WIth our electrical system? KYLE LUKASZ: No, They were pouring the foundations for the columns. JOHN DOMENIE: Oh, okay, 735'ci, Pelican Bay Sel'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 MICHAEL LEVY: On Myra Daniels, the sidewalk along the Phil is probably lit better than any place in Pelican Bay, that side of the road, KYLE LUKASZ: I don't know. I don't think they have any Bollard lights out there. I don't know how it's different from the lights in the parking lot MIeHAEL LEVY: The lights from the Phil and they are streetlights, so there are the usual streetlights along there, in addition. So that side of the road is very well-lit Now, on the other side of the road, it's lit like any other sidewalk, except for the part that drops off down towards the lake. There is a section that gets to the lake that they don't have light So there, you would be walking in the dark. You can walk on it It's an even pavement for walks. But at night, one could certainly walk on the other side of the road and cross at the entrance to Bridgeway, which is where we live. eOLEMAN eONNELL: Yes, ma'am. I think this young lady has had her hand up for some time. Kyle, we will excuse you for the moment, please. KTIE LUKASZ: Sure. DARCY COX: Darcy eoX, 650 Bridgeway Lane. I just feel that we need to revisit why it was that we have this request It has a lot to do with the increased traffic on Myra Janco Daniels Boulevard, with the parking garage and the incredible amoWlt of events at the Philharmonic, the issue is crossing the road, particularly at night We are dodging more and more traffic. And it is not just Bridgeway; it's also Bay Villas who has an entryway through Bridgeway. Those people who go to the Phil come through our community. So we had originally said, well, we should have a crossroad. We should have some decent lighting so we don't have to cross the road. We can walk up to the comer of Pelican Bay Boulevard. As it is, I think by anybody's standard, I think that you just stated, it's very dark. I mean, this is not a debatable amount of light It's pitch dark in that very lovely curvy walkway that goes behind the landscaping there, that we would have to take, in order to get to the comer to make a safe crossing on the road. So I do think 73,55 ______...-._.'_._.'M. ..~_.~ ..___ ....'_._._._____._..,...__, Pelican Bay Se,'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 it's a different issue. We urge vou to get it done before the next season of the PhIlharmonic. so we're not dodging across in traffic after dark. eOLEMAN CONNELL: Well, I think we're still on course there, Darcy, so we will keep you advised. I think the people at Breakwater used the wrong word when they came They should have used II aesthetics_ II TED RAIA: May I ask you a question? Would the people prefer a crossing right where you come out of Bridgeway, rather than lighting that whole street and crossing at the intersection of Pelican Bay Boulevard? What would the people prefer? DARev eox: Truthfully, you know, the people tend to cross, especially if it's light out, you know? Of course, anybody who is driving doesn't have any idea that there is going to be people crossing there. We had asked for a crosswalk. It tends to be somewhat expensive, and we wanted it to be something that was lit at night, because that's a dangerous time, A.nd if s when the Phil lets out. It's also when the Phil gets in before daylight savings time So we were basically offered that the lighting was more doable up there at the corner. And it's an issue at all times. too, because it's really a dark hole over there that people don't want to walk through. But, you know, if you're offering both, I think everybody would be thrilled, TED RAlA: My concern is, even if we do this, people are still going to cross in the middle of that road. MleHAEL LEVY I thmk most wilL TED RAIA: Ves, and because it's the shortest. I mean, they come out from the back entrance, and who is going to walk all the way down to the comer to cross? I mean let's be practical. And even if it cost a little bit more than the other, let's give them a crosswalk where they are crossing right now. eOLEMAN eONNELL: No argument then, Would you n since the eounty will not put a crosswalk in there, would you care to make a motion that the Pelican Bay Services Division, at taxpayers' 73=(0 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav7.2008 expense, put a crosswalk there? TED RAJA: So moved. DARey eox: With some kind of lighting? I mean stepping into a crosswalk in the pitch dark is not safer, TED RAJA: It will be a properly constructed crosswalk, so that it's safe. COLEMAN eONNELL: What does that mean? TED RAJA: Whatever the standard is for putting a crosswalk in. eOLEMAN CONNELL: A crosswalk is two lines painted across the road. What they were asking for is TED RAJA: With lines. We can give them lines, MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Is there any reason why eOLEMAN CONNELL: I can't hear. DARey COX: There seems to be a lot of concern as to what the eounty requires for a crosswalk. We had -- we suppose it's ironic that if you go to the other side of the Philhannonic and look at the crosswalks that they installed so that the people could go from the parking lots to the Phil, from the bank parking lots, et cetera, they're -- they're ideal. They have blinking lights, et cetera, all of which the County is somehow saying they don't do. So we would be very happy with what they have got on the other side of the Philharmonic. That would be ideal, MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Is there any reason why this might not be suggested as in, I think DOT was interested in having a stop sign And the police officer or security officer who is on Pelican Bay Boulevard in front of the Phil is right there, which makes people go a little slower. I like the idea of a crosswalk there, too. Especially, since when I was a teacher at Seagate, that would have been really handy. But coming down that street, Myra Janco Daniels Street, the median is making it a blocked view. So if you 7357 Pelican Bay Sel'Vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 put the crosswalk there, I'm not sure that you can do that without a stop sign or some kind of stop to the traffic, the automobile traffic eOLEMAN CONNELL: But I believe they are asking for the crosswalk up at the exit from Bridgeway, am I not correct that that intersection of Pelican Bay Boulevard and Myra Janco. , . MARY ANNE WOrvtBLE Does that put you over onto the block where the Philharmonic is or is that across to where Nordstrom's wi II end up being? DARCY COX: Across from where Nordstrom's will be MARY ANNE WOMBLE: We might be able to talk to Ms. Alvarez. Possibly Waterside Shops would be interested in helping us provide the access over to the stores, I see many people walking over there, JOHN IAlZZO: Maybe we could lower the crosswalk closer to Seagate so it goes right into" ' DARCyeox: Well, then that would SOli of defeat" ..quite honestly, people going to the Phil are not going to walk. . ' JOHN IAIZZO Don't you walk that walk Just to get to the Philharmonic? DARCyeox: Well, thai's the main walk. Yes. That's the main danger time, because there are two communities that are accessing all of the services across the road, and it's the most congested road in Pelican Bay, JOHN IAIZZO: If you need that walk to get to the Phil, I would suggest you go to the corner, DARCY COX Well, the Iightl.l1g... JOHN IAIZZO: Go to the corner. DARey eox: People won't, unless there IS lighting, people are not going to, JOHN IAIZZO: The Phil put up those lights in the crosswalk where the road is, on the other side because of the mass exodus we have had from the Phil at night And we definitely need those. And there 735E Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 are full stop signs there, as well. And, as well, coming into the Phil, we have a mass of people that comes across at one point in time. But for the most part, there is no one there. DARCyeox: Well, as I stated, this discussion came up before, and we pointed out that right now, we have no safe way to access the services across the street. And as you pointed out, there is lighting on the other side, but that didn~ do any good. You still have to cross with the Philharmonic traffic or the Waterside traffic, and/or the church traffic. If it happens to be Lent, that is always interesting. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Let's do the lighting as we have already decided, then see if it's in need. MICHAEL LEVY: We're doing an eitherlor here? JOHN IAIZZO: I understand your problem, but I think just to provide a crossing for the Bridgeway people and . ... DARey COX: I am not saying this is just so we can go to the Philharmonic, I'm saying because of the Philharmonic events that are constantly going that we cannot safely get across the street for any reason, and that's now the lighting and costs issue originally came up. M. JAMES BURKE: Mr. Chairman, I mean, we're forty minutes into this meeting and we're still in owner comments and everything is on traffic and lighting issues. I mean what does that tell us? We're sitting here. We're going to put a crosswalk or a bridge over the place. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. It's all a Band-Aid. It's patch work. We have problems all over Pelican Bay when it comes to traffic, pedestrians, cars, and lighting. I don't know why -- I mean, out there, there has got __ there has to be an engineering firm -- and I'm not talking about a lighting engineer, I'm talking about an engineering firm that can come in here, take an overall look at Pelican Bay's roads, it's lights, it's crosswalks, and make a recommendation to us. And [ go along with what John said. Let's get some people in here, and interview them and find out what they can do for us. JOHN DOMENIE: Let's do it in season, though, so that we don't have the same problem 7359 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 M. JAMES BURKE: And if somebody could give us an overall plan, and then we could then do it In pIeces DARCY COX: Well, we would like this issue of this block, which we feel very much is not like the rest of Pelican Bay, You know, Nordstrom's is going to be open by the time we get back next season. The parking garage will be full. The Philhannonic is starting up with their events. We're going to be going through the same thing that we have been going through but even worse, So if we get thrown into the pot with Pelican Bay, we will never get across the street 1 would urge you to go ahead with this particular aspect of the project MleHAEL LEVY: So you're talking to the lighting now, to go ahead wIth it? COLEMAN CONNELL Go ahead with what again? MICHAEL LEVY: With the lights that are being" eOLEMAN eONNELL Yes We will not change that Let's take a deep breath and take a look at this, Thank you. Yes, Selma? SELMA PETKER: Will we certainly get the median changed? COLEMAN CONNELL Yes SELMA PETKER: Thank you. BCC ACTION CONCERNING A NEW CLAM BAY PERMIT APPLICATION COLEMAN eONNELL: Anyone else wish to speak at this point? Thank you very much. We will move ahead with the Chairman's Report. I'm sure you're all familiar with the decision that the Board of County eommissioners made back on April 22nd, when they said they would entertain an application, a five-year application for the maintenance of the waterways and the mangroves. I have to commend those, some of whom are here who spoke. as well as others, In our behalf. It was a reasoned, logical and civilized discussion. And I think we should be pleased that it was effective Also, I wanted to say, publicly, that '3 ,S C Pelican Bay SeJ"Vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 we appreciate the Foundation, as well as the Property Owners' Association and everyone else; I can't name them all, who worked so hard to get this done. There is a bit of a compromise, there because it's not a ten year, but it is a five, and still will be under our jurisdiction. MIeHAEL LEVY: Coleman, is that a five year or a ten year? COLEMAN CONNELL: A five. M1eHAEL LEVY: That's definitely a change. Isn't that a change? COLEMAN eONNELL: That was a compromise. They offered, well, I can't say that they offered it. That's what they decided. And, also, that at this point forward, the application, I'm not quite sure where it stands, and T don't want to get into it right at this moment, but it will still have to go through this board for approval; the elam Bay Committee, first, and then on to the Board of eounty eommissioners, Or, actually, to the manager, the eounty Manager, who then brings it to the Board of County eommissioners. Anyone have any other comment on that? Yes, sir? JOHN PETTY: Mr. Chainnan, the final step, T believe, is something that isn't required. We have a COLEMAN CONNELL: The final step being what? JOHN PETTY: We have approval to prepare and submit... COLEMAN eONNELL: Right. JOHN PETTY: . . .. so I don't think the final step that you mentioned that it would go before the County eommissioners is required. We did talk with Mr. Mudd, and going through his office for legal sufficiency, and we would like to have this reviewed because he is considered an expert. But I think County Commission gave us the authority based on that review by Mr, Mudd, that that would be acceptable. JOHN PETTY: I have the basis of the motion. And what they approved, was what we asked for, which was the Board of eounty eommissioners to authorize Pelican Bay Services Division to prepare, sign, 7361 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7, 2008 and submit the Clam Bay Management Plan to the fedeml and state agencies. And the discussions about Mr. Mudd, and working with him, came during the discussion period. If I remember correctly, it was our commissioner for our distnct who said, let's do it for five years, which we feel is appropriate, since we're going for a slightly different permit than what we had before. Five years is probably more akin to what we're going to get anyway, instead of the ten year. But I don't see a problem there, personally, So I don't think it was much of a compromise there. M JAMES BURKE: Would It be appropriate for you to get a money update, because much has happened since that meeting? eOLEMAN eONNELL eertainly, go ahead M JAMES BURKE Okay Everybody kno\M; that on the 22nd, we petitioned the Board of eounty eommissioners for authorization to proceed with the renewal of the ten-year eollier eounty Service Division Clam Bay Restoration and Management Plan Pennit. The outcome of the session was somewhat muddled with attendees having different interpretations of what took place. I have been through that exercise with some of the attendees and everybody had a different view of what took place. Essentially, eommissioner Halas moved to have the Services Division be responsible for mangrove maintenance and restoration, And working within short-term work permits, five years V,ias suggested. The motion included the development of an overall Clam Bay Restoration and lV1anagement plan that would bear the name of Collier eounty. The, quote, management plan, would include the responsibility of Clam Pass inlet dredging. \ The Commissioners voted four to one, with Comnussioner Coyle voting nay, and explained that he felt that / ) there was nothing on which to vote. His confusion arose from being confronted with two contmsting, quote, executive summaries: one from the Services Division and one from county staff He stated that he would have preferred to have had a complete plan presented tor approval, which was going to happen eventually, excuse me, two subsequent meetings where the Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Group, specifically the ~ --------- --.------.-- 7362 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7,2008 Management Plan and Permit Subgroup have served to move the eommissioners' directions forward. ,The '-...------------------_._---~._- ~ first meeting on the 24th of April of just the Management Plan Subgroup served to discuss and clarifY the ----~- Commissioner's directions. The permit violations would be resolved, and they are well underway to being resolved. And that once completed, the ten-year permit would, quote, sunset. And the new order of things would be developed by the Estuary Discussion Group, which includes all of us: eity, County, and Pelican ~~ Bay. The second meeting on the 30th was held at the Department of Environmental Protection Offices in -=- --- ..------- Fort Myers, and included members of the Estuary Discussion Group and which Pelican Bay was more than well represented But people from the eity, eounty, and Pelican Bay, some points from it, I'm not putting any opinion in here, it's just from my notes, okay? One: No real need to renew a ten-year permit plan. ------ -=-~~. ~ Mangrove related work fulls within the category now of maintenance and does not require a permit. Weare - now in an operational phase. The exceptions to that is, any new mangrove work that we haven't already .----- .._,----~---- done, we won't dig new channels but cleaning up of the channels is maintenance, and does not require a new permit. The thirty-three sign markers, or whatever they are called, will be set to comply with a permit. ~r Mixing studies for the entire estuary and, Tim, that's water, correct? ---;. ~ 0..:;;:::=:--- ---."-___. TIM HALL: Yes. M JAMES BURKE: The mixing studies will be conducted by Collier eounty Staff with the Service Division cooperating as required. Now, a little bump came up with the DEP. There was an opinion * -- expressed that we should take our request for the extension of the permit for one year and let it lapse and ----- ,( ,t....__ _--"_, __, ~ 0/..'7 "3 .:...... .........-~- .."." " forget about it. But I brought up the point, what would be the harmin going ahead with the one-year extension? And one of the DEP representatives said that's probably a good idea, because if you didn't have -' the permit this next year, if there was a hurricane which would close the inlet up, we could not go in there and automatically dredge it out and open it up. They estimated, Tim, correct me if I'm wrong here, it would probably take about nine months to get a permit to clean that inlet up. So we are going to stay with the 7363 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 one-year extension But that one year will also allow all of us to discuss and develop the new order of operation in a maImer satisfactory to all parties. It will also allow us to dredge Clam Pass in the event of a " hurricane closing the pass, okay? The development of the new management plan will be the responsibility ...-'- -----.... -~-::;. of all of us in the Estuary J)iscussioll (,roup. And when the permit is issued, it will bear the name of Collier --~_._.- 'i: - --- -=-- -.? __~..7_ ------------- eounty. The Service Division will have the responsibility and the short-ternl permits, five years, for the -z.- mangrove restoration and maintenance only. By the way, the DEP, the State, smiles upon evidence of eity ICounty collaborative efforts. So I'm g01l1g to suggest if we want to be a voice in this process, we need all of us to stay involved. We have Dave Roellig involved. We have Marcia eraven, I don't know who else we have. I think that's it. So there is a lot stili to unfold. We need to be involved with it. That's it. JOHN BOLAND Jim? eOLEMAN eONNELL Go ahead JOHN BOLAND: Jim, I have a question for you. What happens after the fifth year or the sixth, it goes through the whole process agam? M JAMES BURKE: I mean, I can't answer it, but I'm assuming, yes, But I don't think there would be any problem. I mean, because we are pretty much in a maintenance mode, JOHN BOLAND: So instead of renewing every ten years, we renew it in five years? M JAMES BURKE: Five. If that's what it is Yes, JOHN BOLAND Thank you, JOHN DOMENIE: Jim, you refelTed to "permit violations" plural. I'm aware of the navigation ----- markers as a pernlanent violatIon, and that was addressed by a eounty Representative on November 2006, saying that the County would take care of It. M. JAMES BURKE Yes. JOHN DOMENIE: So are there more'! 7-;()"4 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7, 2008 1-{. -4 M. JAMES BURKE: N~ I was ~~ding my:~ I g~ess I'm looking at multiple mark~ and all of that. So, we have got that well underway, That's going to betaken care of. r- JOHN DOMENIE: I don't think we want to get involved in that it should go through the Turrell, Hall and Associates. The only other thing I have to say about the meeting was the picture that Dr. Buser presented of Clam Pass Park, which, obviously, was not 1aken recently. It was probably taken after a storm. It appeared to be covered with seaweed and algae. And that prohably occurred last year when all of the beaches were strewn with seaweeds. And he implied this was a Pelican Services Division mistake, that it was our fault, our responsibility. Clam Pass Park is a public park And it is Parks and Recreation that should have cleaned that beach and not the Pelican Bay Services Division. And, John, please correct me. We do not have any rakes to clean our beaches even. We contract with the eounty. When we had all of that seaweed on the beach, we contracted with the eounty to remove that only as far as the high water mark is concerned. Anything above the high water mark becomes either the Foundation or the Ritz or whosever's property it is, right? JOHN PETTY: I will defer to Kyle on this because I have no knowledge of any agreement for payment. I believe this is Kyle's relationship with the eounty, but I will defer to Kyle. KYLE LUKASZ: Yes. When we had a request to have the beach cleaned or what 1 considered normal maintenance, the eounty has used their beach rake. And kind of the agreement is that they would charge us hourly for the rake and the labor. Then, in addition, when we had the high levels of seaweed, we utilized the contract of the, it's own contract with the County to go out there and remove that with, you know, heavy equipment. JOHN DOMENIE: My only point was that picture was very deceiving. And I think I sent you an E-mail, John, asking if we couldn't get a current picture to show to the eommissioners what the beach really looks like today, Thank you. 7365 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 -x-"1 M. JAMES BURKE: Tim, was I about right, was my summary about right? I mean, I didn't say anything that was a heresy or anytlllng. TIM HALL: No. No. I think your summaty sounded good, The only thing I would say is that the \ ..'( '7 't ! DEP said it would probably take 9 to 12 months. Nine was on the short side. The other thing I would like to caution you about, is every once in a while, you guys say we have permit violations, We don't have any documentation from any agency that's issued a permit that we have any violations for the permit. We have some compliance issues that are being resolved But those compliance issues are related to conditions that - ----_._~,~-_.~-~-- -"-'-'--'------ we were unable to meet or that cannot be met because of other outside circumstances like additional permits or other agency approvals that we have to get. So we don't have any petmit violations. We have some compliance issues that we're trying to resolve. M. JAMES BURKE: So the correct term is "compliance issuesO? TIM HALL: eorrect M, JAMES BURKE Okay, eOLEMAN eONNELL: Tun, I assume that if we were in violation, there is some agency in the State of Florida, or so forth, that would be citing us t'Or that; is that not so? TIM HALL: That's correct. It would be an agency who owns the permitting, either the DEP or the eorps of Engineers. Then there would likely be fines IlIvolved and so forth. M. JAMES BURKE: So the compliance issues are being rectified? TIM HALL: Tliey are being rectified as part of an amendment to the permit that's part of the extension. M. JAMES BURKE Thank you, eOLEMAN eONNELL: Jim, are you -- go ahead. M, JAMES BURKE I'm sorry eounty is, through Mr. McAlpin's office, eoastal Zone, and I have been talking with a large number of \ ~ - --------~-~=-==:=._-. --._- ..-----. w\ stakeholders has come up with a local recommendation and plan for signage. And I'm aware that they're ;(~~ing through:~-that, as I suspected the eounty has quite a few issues in Clam Bay, as we have discussed, . t."-'\~ l-p ~\ \V- ,\\y S"" -t'\}." , bl'v' , 11 ~1! \ >-l ,Qc, 'Ii'JI Ci'u~'''''"<l ~~ ,.,IJ, ~ 'o'OJ v") l yY~ ,,"- j::.. &0'<" HV/.>.)\,yt! C''s\1:;:! ~ ~~~ I ( \ \ Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 COLEMAN CONNELL: Were you quoting Dr. Buser about the violations? M JAMES BURKE: No. I just didn't realize that it was a much loftier term by "compliance issue," I'mjust using Oviolation" generically. eOLEMAN CONNELL: It might be well to make sure he understands that as well, because., TIM HALL: It's a semantic issue, but it's one that, well I guess it's a pet peeve of mine. M JAMES BURKE: But it's irrelevant now because we're moving forward with it and it's going to be corrected. TIM HALL: That's correct JOHN PE1TY: Mr. ehairman, if I could ask, when Mr. Burke says "we" because staff was working from the elam Bays Subcommittee's direction that was to try to resolve the matter. And I have spoken to Tim Hall from Turrell, Hall & Associates and requested that he send a letter to the DEP and ~e eorps Qf - Engineers, asking them to sign us as in compliance, since we cannot get the permits as stated. We won't get a permit rrom any, is it the Coast Guard? -~,._------~------_. ------ TIM HALL: Right Yes. eonservation Commission. ~~~- -.. '- . ------....-------.---..--..--.-- JOHN PE1TY: Excuse me; Conservation Commission, which for some reason, has control over signage, not conservation We're doing more conversation than they are, ] think. But, anyway, since we can't get that, I have asked Tim to say, well, if we can't get the permit, ask them if they will find us in compliance and, if not, to give us a suggestion. There is no reason for us to come up with a redesign of signs ever or to take public surveys or to consider any other costs. We tried to do what they asked for in the permit. We're not able to comply. Send it back to them and see what their next instruction says, Now, the ---7 ~ 7367 Pelican Bay Sel'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 that they wish to do. But I think when you say we're going to fix it; I think what we're talking about is eoastal Zone Management is going forward with those additional signs, M. JAMES BURKE It doesn't matter. It's being fixed I think we have beaten this thing to death over three or four meetings, It's moving forward. If it's a compliance issue, it's going to be in compliance, So we can sit here all we want and beat it to death, but we're moving forward, okay? And I'm at the point with it, I don't care who is doing it, okay'? It's being done JOHN PETTY: Sir, I needed to be concerned about who is going to" M. JAMES BURKE Yes I. JOHN PETTY: -- so we don't duplicate the effort or the expense, M. JAMES BURKE: Well, we're going to., JOHN PETTY: So I'm sorry that it has become tedious, but rrom our perspective, we're trying to get clarity so that we don't spend your money twice. M. JAMES BURKE Get on the phone Call eoastal Zone IVlanagement Work with them. That's all you have to do. JOHN PETTY: I have no problem WIth working with eoastal Zone Management, sir. It is the direction of this board that I seem to be having trouble with, for whatever reason, M. JAMES BURKE: One of our last meetIngs, Ted Raia said, "let's get it fixed" JOHN DOMENIE: I have a question relating to, I'm sorry, Jim. M. JAMES BURKE That's all right JOHN DOMENIE . relating to the signage. Under what permits do we or the eounty put signage outside of elam Pass, J understand you want to put markers out there, That doesn't have anything to do with us. We do not have the power to do that And it's not a matter of compliance. That was never contemplated. So this IS somethlIlg additional that the eounty is doing; am I correct? And they are bearing 7368 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 the full costs of that. Because we certainly don't have it and we don't have anything in the budget for that. JOHN PETTY: Sir, I can't speak to what the County is doing or for the additional signage as stated by Mr. Burke. I cannot confirm that, because your staff is not working on that. Your staff is trying to contact the DEP and the Corps of Engineers through it's contract environmental engineer, to ask for direction before we spend anymore money. That's what we're trying to do, your staff COLEMAN CONNELL: Yes? Go ahead, Ted. TED RAJA: One thing that Jim did not include, which is in Tim Hall's written comments here, it says, the local DEP representative stated that the maintenance of existing channels, and, possibly, the mangrove trimming, as well, could be undertaken without a new pennit, since this would be maintenance of already permitted activities. Also considered was the conversion of the current permitted to an operational permit, which would, in effect, make the management plan pennanent and allow ongoing activity. So how does this fit into what we're what we're doing right now? JOHN DOMENIE: I asked that and I understand we're not going to be discussing this. TED RAIA: We are already discussing it. JOHN DOMENlE: I know, but we're having a meeting about that, apparently, on the 21st. I was told not to bring this up. JOHN IAIZZO: Too late. JOHN DOMENIE: 1 don't know. Mr. Chairman, it's up to you, eOLEMAN CONNELL: That's what you were told was the 21 st? JOHN DOMENIE: Yes. COLEMAN CONNELL: Marcia., do you have something to add to this? MARSHA CRA YENS: I do. COLEMAN CONNELL: Give us something new, Marcia, 7369 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7, 2008 MARSHA eRA YENS: Well, I was going to speak as to what Ted Raia brought up. JOHN DOMENIE: Your name, Marcia" MAReIA CRA YENS: IYlarcia eravens with the Mangrove Management Group, a resident of Pelican Bay. I am included In the work group that Gary McAlpin has put together, as kind of a subcommittee of a subcommittee. We had one meeting. Some things that were discussed at that meeting haven't been brought up here It has to do with sand bypassing of the ebb shoal I think it's a critical component of the issues here for elam Bay. Mr. McAlpin has expressed, on more than one occasion, to remove the ebb shoal He uses temlS such as "sand bypassing" and "sand mining" We have information from our reports from Hummiston & Moore that that would not be a good thing to do. We know if we can use the analogy of Wiggins Pass, that It is a disastrous thing to do. I think that is something that everyone here needs to consider. I have sent a POF file to Ted Raia on the Wiggins Pass report. It's available to anyone else. So that's one Issue, SeCondly, I was at the DEP meeting also. The people that attended it were all considered to be stakeholders But I do not believe it w~s inclusive of all of the stakeholders involved here. And I will be asking for a separate meeting with OEP to include all of the stakeholders. One of the things that Mr. Raia brought up had to do with discussion for ongoing activities by PBSO. It does not just include the trenches and channels within the interior waterways, It also includes the mallltenance dredging of the Pass, All of these are activities that have been permitted by OEP, ""ith our current management plan that will be allowed to be continued in perpetuity. It does not even have to morph into an operational phase for that to occur. If it morphs lllto an operational phase VIa Lucy Blair (Phonetic) of the DEP, that only strengthens our position. ~, What would require additIOnal permits is the activity that the County has put forth, in terms of expanded dredging, If there IS expanded dredgmg, tlW whatever reason, you might want to call it water quality. You might, probably more 10 the poml, call it navigation, But any eXJX'lnded dredging does require new 7'~' 7 Pelican Bay Selovices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 permitting. And the one-year application, the application for the one-year extension is complete. I spoke ~- with Lainey Edwards. She said payment has been received, and it will take about 60 days for that to be processed. We do expect it to be done and approved with no problems. What that does, is that keeps our current permit in process, most importantly, for the contingency aspect of our current management plan. I ; , I ! The contingency aspect of our current management plan allows us to expedite permitting in the event of a C major storm. And that's something I think that some of you were trying to address, 'Thank you. / \ COLEMAN CONNELL: 'Thank you. TED RAIA: Coleman, I suggest we get a letter from DEP stating exactly what has been brought up here. And that would be legally binding, to everybody that we are allowed to continue what we're doing in perpetuily because it has already been approved in the past. We didn't violate it. We were successful in what we're doing. And now, we can continue what we're doing. Instead of getting people's difference of opinion about what happened at that meeting, we should get it straight from DEP in writing, eOLEMAN eONNELL: What is the likelihood that we -- that that can be done, John? JOHN PETTY: It sounds like a very forthright question. We should hear a forthright answer. It can be done. What is the likelihood? I don't think it can be done. Right now, we're speaking with so many different voices on what should happen with elam Bay that I don't know that I could tell the ehair how to send such an envoy to get such an answer without it being skewed for that particular angle. I thought we had the matter solved. I thought we were handling the permit application. I thought we were going to do so through the direction of this board. It appears that we are still at odds with other eounly divisions' \ objectives, particularly with Gary. I don't know why. I have no indication of why. I have talked with the Counly Administrator who seemed to understand perfectly. I have 110 idea why we're at odds with the eoastal Zone Management group, but, evidently, we are. I would suggest you use caution until the matter is , ------_._.._-~ worked out. I wish I could counsel you, Mr, ehairman, on how you do this correctly. You can try sending '\, 7371 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 your environmental engineer to speak to DEP. But I think your environmental engineer was already there with the Coastal Zone Group, discu5sing such things as whether our one-year application be pulled or whether it go forward. And I recall no authorization from this body for Mr. Hall to speak for Pelican Bay Services Division or any indication from this body for Mr. Burke to speak for Pelican Bay Services Division or anybody else. I know of no such direction, sir. I know that anybody can go there as a citizen and ask questions, but I have no indication of how anybody went there to speak for the Services Division. M. JAMES BURKE Nobody did TED RAJA: Well, it appeared to me several people were at this meeting and they more or less relayed the same information; therefore, it seems reasonable to have the DEP put it in writing. That's all we need. M JAMES BURKE: I don't think they took minutes, though. Maybe they did. I'm not sure. But my take is, they are waiting for us down here to come back to them with the final plans. I suggest that we request from them this letter. MIeHAEL LEVY: ean we put it in writing? Send them a letter. TED RAJA: Let's get this letter off to them, ask them to respond and give us this letter of authorization. JOHN PETTY Mr. ehairman? COLEMAN CONNELL: Yes JOHN PETTY: I think I have the proper answer for you now. When we first did this permit, it was just as controversial ten years ago. And if I remember, we had the solution. It took several attempts, but we got the solution. It was Ted Brown, A,nd if you would like, I will be glad to call1iis office, get a proposal for him. He is an expert in this field, beyond anybody's questioning Anybody that wishes to question him, good luck 7372 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 JOHN DOMENIE: Who is Ted Brown? JOHN PETTY: Ted Brown is the one that's been handling environmental lobbying concerns in Florida for some twenty years. He handled our pennit ten years ago. He is considered the best. He was the one that solved our problem ten years ago. If you recall, our original group tried to come up with a process and failed. Ted Brown came in and brought in a professional, brought the teams together, along with all of the others, made the public appearances in the City of Naples and at Collier County. He is the one that got our pennit through the first time. If you want to know what the facts are, I suggest you contact him. eOLEMAN CONNED-: Then let's do that. JOHN PETTY: I will bring the poles back at the next meeting. COLEMAN CONNELL: Marcia, do you have something on this particular subject today? MARCIA eRA YENS: I do, I have a copy of the notes that were taken by Lucy Blair. She is the -----~-_._-_...- DEP person in Fort Myers that reviews all of these plans and permit applications. She gave me a copy of her notes. ' I will be happy to share them with every board member here. In this, Gal)' McAlpin agreed that we could continue the activity of PBSD for all of the things that they have been doing in perpetuity. And if -----------~_.- -"-, -'--" there were additional activity, additional dredging to be done for instance, his clean water or water .-----..-..-::-....:::.:=--- improvement studies indicated additional dredging would be good and would improve water quality that would possibly modi1)t or request a new permit. I will be happy to share these notes with everybody. Also, I have been in as a representative of the Mangrove Action Group, who I believe, was the group that brought in Ted Brown in the first place. But as a representative of the Mangrove Action Group, I have been in a great deal of contact with all of these people, with many different agencies in the Department of /. Environmental Protection Services, with the U. S. Army eorps of Engineers, and I believe that I can get that documentation for you. I would be happy to do that. ~ eOLEMAN eONNED-: Would the board members like to have a copy of what Marcia has just 7373 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 described? I'm sure they would TED RAlA: Not only that, but if she can get this letter from DEP showing this authorization, I would have her do that, also MARelA eRA YENS: I would love to do that TED RAIA: Since we seem to have some difficulty getting anything done JOHN DOMENIE: I think one of the difficulties is that the Pelican Bay Services Division is not officially represented at any of those meetings. I think that is a major concern, As John just said, Jim Burke is there as an individual and not representing the Pelican Bay Services Division So we are talking with all of these people. but we don't have anybody representing this group officially, legally eOLEMAN CONNELL: I don't think you can find one. Mr Petty, the councilman delights in saying that he does not represent the City of Naples in any of these discussions, and that certainly gives the participants much greater latitude to speak their minds. If you would please get them to Ms. Smith and she will see that they are distnbuted, the copies of what you Just described MARelA CRA YENS I will do that But I Just wanted to lldd,!hatJ"lr ~url<e.l1a,~~ed in _as PBSD, and so he has indicated that he is representing PBSD I have a copy of the sign-in sheet M. JAMES BURKE: I'm not going to pay any fines eOLEMAN eONNELL: Okay, Let's move on TED RAlA: Wait a mmute, I think that's important Now, if anybody is going to represent the Pelican Bay Services Division, it has to be an issue we voted on and approved. M. JAMES BURKE: I ai,'fee, TED RAIA: Now, you know, in Jim's position, it's not enough that he stands there and says he is talking for himself He has to answer that he is in disagreement with what the board has voted, This way, the people who are attending this meetl1lg understand our position and understand his position, which he is 7~: '4 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 fully entitled to. But in no way must there be a conveyance of an idea that we don't know what we're doing. We haven't discussed it yet, but may be what he is saying, we're not with him. In particular, if we had voted, you know, the 7 to I vote to do something, and here, he is off representing us, not representing himself, but not conveying that sentiment. Right now, I would like to make a motion. I would like to move that we write a letter to DEP, requesting this letter authorizing us to continue the maintenance, as permit1ed in the original permit. JOHN DOMENIE: But, I'm sorry, Ted, we have applied for a one-year extension. And we come in with that letter now, are you overriding our one year extension? TED RAIA: No. No. The comments DEP made, I would like to have them in writing from DEP. eOLEMAN CONNELL: And we're getting those. TED RAIA: Okay. JOHN IAIZZO: I would like to make a suggestion. Though Marcia eravens has shown to be sharp in this area called Pelican Bay Clam Pass, I would like to get the board to agree to draft her as an auxiliary member of this board that supports Class Pass, Clam Bay. I would feel very comfortable if that were so. COLEMAN CONNELL: I wish we had Heidi here now. J have no objections, because J have the highest regard for Marcia's knowledge, but I'm not so sure that we can delegate that. And, essentially, what you're saying is that certain authority... . JOHN IAIZZO: For auxiliary support, you know, COLEMAN CONNELL: But she has that right now. JOHN lAIZZO: With a little bit more active measure I would like to see, TOM CRA YENS: At sometime in the past, John Domenie had requested that David RoeIlig and myself be sort of ex officio or some sort of affiliation with the board in an advisory capacity. And Heidi t=_:"Pi"'OO .., y~ ~" do.... b~ ... .. Soo","', Low _Id '" .""""bl, .. "' 7375 And I feel Pelican Bay Sel'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 that my wife would be constrained immensely if she were unable to communicate with the board members, So although it sounds like a good idea, John, I think it would really constram her and would put her in a bad position, M. JAMES BURKE: Mr. ehairman, it's too bad we got into all of this. This was supposed to be hashed out in the elam Bay meeting, So I don't want to get in here and express my resentment about Ted's comments about whom I represent, especially when it's coming from people that really don't know a lot about this. But I bave to ask this question: If l'm at those meetings and Roellig is at them and Marcia is at them, and we're all Pelican Bay residents, who do people think we're representing Golden Gate, East Naples? TED RAlA: I don't think that It's the point.., M. JAMES BURKE Here is the pomt. I'm there fighting for what I think is right. And I won't apologize that I had a differing opimon on that vote, Ted. I know you're not used to board members, you know, disputing, but I have a different opinion on that. And I still think I was nght. A lot of this didn't have to happen, okay? Now it is. And we're piling on and piling on and making it even more complicated. So I'm there and l'm going to represent what I think is right for my community, which I have been doing for ten years, I was on the elam Bay bandwagon while other people were wondering why we were spending money on it. So l'm not going to take a back seat to anybody who all of a sudden sees an opportunity for a platform to crawl on, I'm just not going to do it, okay, I'm in this for keeps. No one is going to push anything over on me. I'm as attuned and aware of this situation as anybody else involved, and know full well what I'm doing, okay? JOHN DOMENIE: Jim, that is not the point. I think we all agree certainly, of the work that you bave done. And whether you agree with our position or don't that's something apart. But I think the question came up that you are speaking as an mdivldual, and that, legally, according to Heidi, you are not \. 73 ':::..' Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 representing the Pelican Bay Services Division. I think that is the only point that was brought up, and I ..- think that is what is important here today Nobody questions your defending Pelican Bay, but you're not ,- speakingJQLtl1e Services Division. .,/' .............-- , , eOLEMAN CONNELL: Well, it's the democratic process in work and it isn't always easy, And it can get very messy and sometimes unpleasant when we don't get our own ways. Let's get back to what our real concerns are and that is the continued maintenance of Pelican Bay, its beautification, its water quality. And Gary would like to say something. Gary McAlpin? GARY MeALPIN: For the record, Gary McAlpin, Collier County eoastal Zone Management The reason that we have talked with Jim Burke and have suggested that he be involved is it has always been our understanding that he is your government relations individual. And so we are of the opinion that Jim is our go-to guy for issues that involve Pelican Bay elam Pass, so that he would take back to the board for infonnation, dissemination And so if that's not the case, that's fine. Tell us. But it can't be seven or eight t people, okay? So what we would like to do is if Mr. Burke is not the individual, we want to involve everybody in any and all of the meetings that we want Everybody is welcome to come. Remember that the board members are subject to Sunshine Rule and stuff Our position was Jim was the appointed individual. If that's not the case, just tell us who is the person we need to talk to. Thank you. eOLEMAN eONNELL: I don't think it's really a problem, Gary. I served on that group, as well. I do so with the understanding that I am in no position to make any commitment on behalf of the board, unless they were to send me up with a specific matter. And I would trust that Jim treats it the very same way. M JAMES BURKE: Which is why I brought this stuff back today TED RAJA: My problem with this, eoleman, is Mr. McAlpin, who when he speaks to DEP and other people who claim to be on or represent, not only the Pelican Service Division, but all of Pelican Bay, and that is just not the case. I rarely meet somebody who agrees with any1hing that Gary McAlpin is doing. 7377 ~ \jx::} ""~ , \\~t\v'l \\vjf/ / Pelican Bay Services Division l\ Mav 7. 2008 But, again, I would not say that I '-",)resent 'h,:. Pdle:m hw 58' ,.11011. Now we have discussed things here, We voted. And to me, tnat s tl1e only tI1mg we can represent M JAMES BURKE We \;)ted. ciS I underslOod it. to lake -- to go to the eounty eommissioners and petition for the authorization to continue with a ten-year permit: is that right? We did it, okay? I voted against it, but has anybody heard me knock that move? I haven't said a thing about it It was the will of the board It's all closed. It's a closed case for me, okay? And then at the DEP meeting when someone said we ~ ~ don't need the one-year extension, 1 stood up and said, yes we do and 1 was proven right. So, Ted, I throw ---...- --.---. -_.~-~~~-- ---==::? ~ myself at yourmercy. Whatever you say, TED RAlA: You're entitled to your opilllon, COLEMAN CONNELL I hope I stated it as accurately as 1 can. And we're going to move on. I have on here the status of revised permit I am assuming that will be coming to the Clam Bay committee at their next meeting. No need to talk about it now Now we're off water management and mangroves and so forth. The consideration of a one-year agreement for professional administrative services. ONE-YEAR AGREEMENT FOR ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES JOHN PETTY: Now while everybody is in such a good mood. TED RAJA: Just to get it started, I move we approve it M JAMES BURKE: I second it COLEMAN eONNELL Any discussion? M JAMES BURKE: Mr. ehairman. I'm uncomfortable with this process, and let me tell you why It has no reflection on John or Ted saying -- I guess It works fme, I have no way of judging it We're in good shape, But here IS what I'm concerned about When we originally put John's company on, we said that $24,000 because that's $1,000 at the time of THE County milllmum. Now 1 guess we all jumped on that because we were saving $24,000, We ail thought that was great But I have always been uncomfortable \"'-- 73 :,3 ( Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 with it because I don't know why we did it. Now if the County limit minimum is $50,000, then all of a sudden the contract is forty-eight. And because we stayed under the fifty, we sent out two bid requests to the two usual suspects, who have no or little to no interest in responding to it. They never do. I think our process and our decision should be based on not so much on the County's minimwn, but it should be based on what is this job worth to us. Is it worth for example, what if next year the eounty's minimum goes to eighty? What's the contract, seventy-eight? I think we need to take a look and say what is the job worth to us. Is it worth eighty? Is it worth fifty? I think we have to stop and discuss that. Do we really need the job? Do we need a manager now? I mean, I'm not saying we don't, but I think these are issues we need to discuss rather than just have someone say, well, the County minimum is now sixty, so the contract will be fifty-eight. So that's where my level of discomfort with this is. eOLEMAN CONNELL: I would only give you my understanding and that is first of all, the primary reason for cutting it in half hack in time, with the research I have done, is one of the largest pieces of the work the administrator did was the preparation of the budget. And it was decided by Mr. earol (phonetic) at that time that that was prohably something that could be done within the board itself It was a large part of that and well, it has not proved true. I know it was well-intended. But when you consider continuity, year to year, and board changes and committee changes, things full through the cracks. And it's been my experience, and I'm not defending doubling the charge, but there have been any number of times when extra time had to be put in, And if you kept track of it, you would be billing separately. But nevertheless, I'm not advocating that it be doubled, but I certainly believe it would be wise to seriously consider increasing the amount of the contract. M. JAMES BURKE: And what I'm saying, why forty-eight? Why not sixty-five? Why not seventy? Why not send it out, an actual request for proposal to concerns that might have an interest in it, get it all back, look at them, and start to get a better fix on what this job is worth? I mean, I never thought 7379 Pelican Bay Sel'vices Division Meeting Mav 7, 2008 twenty-four made sense no matter what we were doing, okay" eOLEMAN eON NELL: I think it was during the transmission of one administrator to another, for one thing weighed heavily on You're shaking your head no, John, JOHN PETTY: Sir, if [may? [can give a history here, When I first came to Pelican Bay in the replacement of Jim Ward, I was doing so as a representative of Severn Trent Services. And [ came before the board and asked them to accept me as a replacement for Mr. Ward. The contract was $48,000 when I entered. It stayed that way for the remainder of the year and into the next, where Mr. earol came in and said he was rewriting the ordinance and was looking to do a change around January or February, I believe, of the following year. The indication ITom Mr. Carol was the reason for doing so was so that this board made the decision on who the administrator was, versus the Purchasing Division of the eounty, If we had it underneath the minimum, this board got to decide what entities they would look at and they would make a decision at this level. At the time, the contract limit was $24,000 and he wanted to limit it down to meet that level. So there was a reqUIrement of one day per week under the old contract of $48,000. So for $48,000, you got Jim Ward one day a week. I told Mr. earol there was no problem with taking it down to the lower amount, as long as the time requirement went with it. You got two days a month. If you recall, we had a board meeting with the entire board on one day. And I do believe we had one of the subcommittees that same day, or we had both the subcommittees on the same day. I can't recall. But there was only twice-a-month meeting requirements here. Now, by your current calendar, I'm required to be here a minimum of three days a month when all three conunittees meet. The reason the contract went ITom twenty-four to forty-eight is because I'm spending way more time than what the twenty-four can possibly SUPPOll or consider. And the fatty-eight is the limit that I can go for It's not all that I will send you a bill for. If you ask for more hours above that four-day target, that's represented by $48,000, the contract does have an hourly rate provision. That's how 7380 Pelican Bay Selvices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 you have asked me to provide this to you. You have asked for what is the current need for work. You thought it was going to be two days a week, so we set a contract for two days a week. Anything above that, I'm supposed to bill you. MICHAEL LEVY: A month? A month? JOHN PETTY: Yes. Otherwise, I'm working very much lower. I'm in trouble now. Two days a month. If I work four days a month, my recourse is to corne hack to you and ask for a change or to submit a separate bill. I have tried to work with this entity for the last six months or longer actually, in working through these various difficulties that we have had. It turns out that these are not one of a kind situations, Pelican Bay has this kind of life and it's going to be exciting probably for a very long time to corne. If you wish for me to spend this kind of time, this is the amoWlt of money that I will bill you, either through an annual contract or through an annual amoWlt. If this is inappropriate, then I think you should look at the alternative, M: JAMES BURKE: I am not fussing with the forty-eight. I mean, I have already said, why not sixty-five or seventy. TED RAIA: I would like to answer that. I have only been a board member for about a year now, but I have been associated with this operation since 2002. And I have known Jim Ward was getting $48,000. And it seems quite reasonable that all of those years, we had somebody still willing to work for the same $48,000 that was being paid to Jim Ward years ago. To me, it was a no-brainer to propose that. Also, in working with John Petty, I have found him to be a much more cooperative person in getting things done, than I had experienced with Jim Ward. So I defend making a motion to paying him the $48,000 on those grounds. M JAMES BURKE: Mr. Chairman, let me repeat myself It's the process that has an odor to it If you're on the outside looking in, it has an odor. Keeping it under fifty, going to the same two usual suspects 7381 Pelican Bay Sen'ices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 we know aren't going to respond, I just think this board would be much better served if we affixed a true value on the job, nothing to do with the eounty minimum, we put a true value on it and we send it all to multiple concerns that would have some interest. And Mr Petty would still probably overwhelmingly be the choice. But I just wanted to remove what I think could be a possible odor. JOHN PETTY: Mr. Chairman, if I could address the odor issue? This is how the board has been selecting their administrator for I cannot tell you how many years. If this has been an odor-causing issue, it's new, I think, to me and the rest of the board. COLEMAN CONNELL Well, as a compromise, would the board consider, since this is just a one-year matter that we're dealing with, but by the time we come to end of this year, we do as Mr. Burke suggests, JOHN PETTY: Well, Mr. ehairman, I serve at the pleasure of this board, If you wish to go out for competitive bids, then, certainly. do what this board wishes to do or thinks is best. I'm just trying to work within the existing system as I have for the last two and a half years. I'm not trying to find a loophole or trylllg to do anything that has a smell issue to it. But I believe that my contract is up this month. So I don't know that we have until the end of the year. When we did our agreement, it was last May. And it was an analyzed contract. Now I have heard rumors that the County may want to extend that or may be capable to extend it to the fiscal year-end, but our contract is, basically, over this month We have been talking with this body now for, I think, about SIX months on this issue, I think it's appropriate and I'm really going to ask for direction. We have tried to work the best we can, but I'm really at the point where I have given so much time and effort outside the company's resources, that I'm putting my OMl company at risk eOLEMAN CONNELL I want to c1mity, though, what I'm saying, and that is that we approve Ted's motion that has been gIven and seconded, which gIves us another year and it would be a year., JOHN PETTY: Oh. I'm sorry: I thought you were talking about , -::-38,-,- Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 eOLEMAN eONNELL: No. No. No. That if we take some time first of all, I think the job description should be rewritten a bit more definitive, but I wouldn't want to do it in a rush. But let's move forward with a contract as submitted for one year. It is going to be one year anyway, and then be back next year with something perhaps a bit more formal. JOHN PETTY: Now, that I have taken the cotton out of my years. eOLEMAN CONNELL Okay. M. JAMES BURKE: I could support it because I want to put a true value on the job. I don't think forty-eight is enough, okay? JOHN DOMENlE: I think if we would go outside, I think we would end up paying more for the services that you provide. And I think that's what Jim Burke is saying. I think the Chairman, basically, is saying, let's go ahead with this one year, and then, if necessary, go out and get bids. JOHN PETTY: Yes, sir. eOLEMAN eONNELL: Any other discussion? All in favor? Opposed? Wonderful. Thank you. JOHN PETTY: Thank you. Dr. Ted Raio moved. seconded by Mr. lanres Bllrke W approve the new One Year Administrator's Professional Services Contract The nwtiOIl U'Q.\' IInaninwusly approved. BARBARA SMITH: Mr. Chainnan? COLEMAN eON NELL: Yes, ma'am. BARBARA SMITH: That is going through contract for one year, starting in June? eOLEMANeONNELL June 1st or May 1st? JOHN PETTY: June 1st PENDING DISTRICT OFFICES INVOICES 7383 Pelican Bay Se.'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 eOLEMAN eONNELL And still on the same subject that you were each given invoices for matters that were outside of the scope of the engagement 1l-1r. James lIl/rke nlm'ed1 ...econded by Dr. Ted Raitt, to lIppro)'e the invoices submitted jilr extra work by District Offices. The nwtion was unanimouslv approved eOLEMAN CONNELL Opposed? earried, Thank you, BUDGET C01\lll\HTI'EE eOLEMAN eON NELL Now. the budget committee met April the 22ml, the same day that the Commissioners met. And the Budget Chairman, Mr Pendergrass, was not there that day, so 1 sat in for him. And I will give you the hIghlights, First of all, probably one of the most important things, and something we have to deal WIth, WdS it was agreed that we would prepare our budget for submission to the eounty Commissioners for its approval. That resulted in an assessment no more than we had this past year. And in the course of accomplishing that, it was agreed that we would recommend to the full board, that that allowance that is built into the budget every year which accommodates no income, if you will, trom the end of September to the first of December, I think I'm right with those dates, it's cun-ently three and a half months' worth of budget. There is a formula used, but it's upwards of a million dollars that's built into the budget that accommodates any short fall we would encounter because of the delay caused from when the bills were sent out to when the tax payers paid them. So we would reduce it trom three and a half months to three months If you agree or have any other questions about that palt of it, then I would ask that you so move, JOHN DOMENIE: How much is that about $200,000 or less than $180,000, or something like that? JOHN PETTY: The savings that your budget conmllttee has done in a very shOlt amount of time, because the meeting schedule that h3s beea abnlptl\' changed with the loss of year is considerable, 7384 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 JOHN DOMENIE: I'm only talking about changing the income" JOHN PETTY: That's the three and a half months? JOHN DOMENlE: Three and a half to three months. JOHN PETTY: That's a meaningful number. In all of the cost efficiencies that the budget committee may have done, almost all of them are six figures. , JOHN DOMENIE: But if three and a half months is the equivalent of one million dollars, then three months would be six-sevenths of that or you're saving one-seventh? JOHN PETTY: Yes. JOHN DOMENlE: Okay, That's all. JOHN PETTY: Oh, yes, sir. I think what I may want to bring up is, in addition to that, part of the budget committee's work was looking at the equipment carry forward amounts that we have for our rolling stock of lawn mowers and trucks, et cetera, And through update of that, we were able to bring, I think, about 200;000 into the budget and reduce the annual percentage. So the budget group, in a very short period of time, has done very well on keeping the costs down. I think you're going to be happy with this year's budget and staff has a draft that I have seen. They still have a little bit more work to do. But at the budget committee, they will have a draft budget for the budget committee to review. COLEMAN CONNELL: Wonderful. You have heard the motion. Would you like me to state it again? JOHN DOMENIE Yes, eOLEMAN CONNEll: The motion is that we, in the course of including in the budget an allowance of three and a half months' worth of expenditures, cutting it back to three months. And its purpose of -- if you all don't know what it is -- it's to accommodate the lapse between when our fiscal year ends and we finally get some tax money, 7385 Pelican Bay Sel'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 MleHAEL LEVY I second it eOLElVlAN eON NELL Is that clear? All in favor? Mr. Colemall ConnellmOl.ed..\.ecomledbyft.fr. j\1ichael Lel:)', ami unaninwus(v apprOl'ed to cut the 31/2 IIwllth aYoH-wllee in the budget to 3 months to accommodate for the lapse in ohtau,ing tax numeyfor the new fiJical year. -- - -- --- - ---- -- --- COLEMAN CONNELL Opposed? That's no one, too Thank you. FOUNDATION STRATEGIC PLANNING COMMIITEE eOLEMAN CONNELL: Ms. Womble? I know you have something for us this time MARY ANNE WOMBLE First of all, we discussed quite a few things on April 24th, We were very concerned about the surveys that went out and the cover letter that was with the surveys, We were rightfully angry We have no desire to use some surveys and not others. and we made that very clear in our meeting. All surveys will be processed We also extended the date to receive those surveys for processing up until May 15, in order that we do receive and have time to look over the surveys We found that 200 surveys were returned to us at that point There may be more now. I don't know. But at that point 200 were undeliverable by mail and we're checking into why that occurred, what's wrong with the addresses. And that was very important to us that some were returned, that it indicates something is wTOng with the inteb'Tity of the mailing list that we have, We also made sure that our wishes were that there is a telephone number that can be called to indicate your deSire for a survey, And that would be mailed to a person to the address of their choice, We spoke with our consultant horn \VPI by conference call, and indicated to him that we were most concerned that they do process all surveys. and that we felt it was important for the community at large, to understand that everyone is impOltant and every sun ey will be processed That's pretty much what we went through We were gi\en H little bit of time to vent And I think evelyone at the meeting felt very uncomfortable with the wav rhings bave gone so tar, but we're trving very definitely to change the '7386 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 attitude as perceived by the community, because we're part of the community, too, and we're on the same page. We want evel)'body to have that inforn13tion process that we might feel that's important. The surveys were not exactly what we expected, and we made that known also. The Strategic Planning Committee is now awaiting the information coming hack from those surveys, all which will be processed. And there was a media blitz -- E-mail blitz, definitely. And, Jim, did you put something on 96, Channel 96? JIM HOPPERST ADT: I don't know. I'm pretty sure it was a runner. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: I thought there might be. I was pretty sure that there was a runner. So if anyone in this room has a survey and you have not returned it, please do so. We want to hear what you have to say. eOLEMAN CONNELL: Among our board members, did evel)'one get a survey? M JAMES BURKE: Yes MICHAEL LEVY: Yes. TED RAJA No ROBERT PENDERGRASS: They keep promising to send one. I don't have it yet. To be honest, they did send me an E-mail. I could have printed it, but I have not. M JAMES BURKE: It's about 300 pages, isn't it? It's a lot of pages. ROBERT PENDERGRASS: Yes. I couldn't afford the ink COLEMAN CONNELL: How about our attendees? Did you all get a survey? I urge you to return them. It has to be representative of the community, and that isn't always the case if not evel)'body sends it back. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Actually, I believe we were going to have surveys available at the Commons. eOLEMAN CONNELL: How are you going to audit that then? Some are going to pick up three or 7387 Pelican Bay Sel'Vices Division Meeting Mav 7, 2008 four. MARY ANNE WOMBLE We have already discussed that and there may be some problems with that. But who is going to take the time to fill out that much? JOHN DOMENlE: Yes. One is enough. COLEMAN CONNELL: Wait untill get my list out there, JOHN DOJV1ENlE: Mary Anne, I know that you first we're paying how much: Two hundred, 250,000 for this? ROBERT PENDERGRASS $280,000, JOHN DOMENIE $280,000 Okay. What surprised me is there were no questions, for instance, that I haven't said we have discussed in here: LIghting of Pelican Bay Boulevard and lighting. There were no questions regarding the entry markers, I don't think there was a specific question on widening of pathways, which have been three major questIOns, And I'm just surprised that these things were never brought up. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: John, you're no more surprised than the rest of us, Let me tell you. It was an interesting situation, and we were trying very hard not to jump over the table at anybody at that meeting. And that meeting was called because a number of the committee, myself included, requested it. The survey was not something that we all saw, and we were concerned about several aspects of it. ROBERT PENDERGRASS: Mary Anne, who was the chairperson of that committee? MARY ANNE WOMBLE: That Chairn1aI1Ship has changed and. ROBERT PENDERGRASS: Is it the Chainnan of the total committee? It's the one., MARY ANNE WOMBLE Yes, ROBERT PENDERGRASS Okay, I wasn't sure who it was, I didn't know whether the Chairman of that committee was runnmg that particular meeting, 7388 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Mr. Uek (Phonetic) was running that meeting. JOHN DOMENIE: Mary Anne, you think Chairman Uek kept Merlin Lickhalter on as vice chair... is it worth saying I believe that's what they voted on ,., MARY ANNE WOMBLE: I don't know what it is. I didn't vote on anything. JOHN DOMENIE: No. At the annual meeting Bob Uek was chair, and, Merlin Lickhalter, because of his experience and background, they made them vice chair? Because as I understand the Foundation, you don't have to be a board member to be a vice chair. I think that's right, Jim? ROBERT PENDERGRASS: It depends on the chart. KYLE LUKASZ: You're both right. COLEMAN CONNELL: Another subject entirely. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: All I know is that everyone at that meeting made very succinct and very intelligent remarks, questions, and answers. And we did a very good job of coming together as a committee, so I'm looking forward to the future. COLEMAN CONNELL: Okay. Moving on. The Clam Bay Estuary Improvement, we have talked that pretty well through. CLAM BAY COMMllTEE REPORT JOHN DOMENIE: Both items were discussed. So the only thing I could add is, Jim, Gary this tilt motor up is a eounty ordinance. So I don't know how you want to address that, but that's something that your people are talking about, so I have nothing else, GOVERNMENT REALTIONS- VANDERBUILT PIER UPDATE COLEMAN CONNELL: On to government relations: Clam Bay Update, I think we have already done that. How about the Vanderbilt pier? M JAMES BURKE: Now, let me explain why I'm doing this. This is really none of our business, 7389 Pelican Bay Se..vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 but I got involved because a premier commercial establishment located in Pelican Bay, the Ritz, was veT)' veT)' concerned about the prospect of it. so ! stayed veT)' close to it, and it has been veT)' productive and fruitful. As you all know last year. the County Commissioners directed staff to develop, analyze, and present the concept of a recreational pier to be located at Vanderbilt Beach, This concept was to include expanded sanitaT)' facilities, as well as food and beverage services. The preliminaT)' development of this concept was carried out, and as directed, taken out to the eollier eounty communities in a series of town hall meetings. Two of those meetings were held in North Naples; one here, and one at SI. Johns. There was a total, I believe, of five or six of them. I know I personally attended four At these meetings, the attendees were told they would be presented with this concept and that eounty staff wanted their input, their concerns, their complaints, and the whole smear. The input was, in the meetings I was at, constructive and well thought out, for the most part. Many serious concerns were expressed. And to be kind, I would say it was close to 100 percent disapproval of a pier at Vanderbilt Beach, I mean, I'm not even going to say it was overwhelriling, It was dam close to I 00 percent. So with the complete lack of community support vocalized and in writing, from letters and E-mails, eounty staff, in my opinion, had a clear-cut direction from the community; essentially, the community in saying, we don't know why you're doing this? We don't want it here. What's the benefit: Why are you doing this? So the direction was there. But what the community did, however, overwhelnungly voiced their understanding of a critical need for expanded sanitaT)' facilities. And they encouraged County staff to proceed with that part of the project. And, GaT)', if I'm off base here, just jump in and tell me, v.ill you? I mean, you're closer to them. On April 16th, the County eoastal Zone Manager, GaT)' McAlpin, made a presentation to the eounty Parks and Recreation AdvisoT)' eommittee. And the presentation was a preview of the proposal he will make to the Bee on May 13th, And at that meering, and I don't teel free to speak of what his options are, but I was at the Parks and Recreation AdvisoT)' Committee Meeting and he IS going to represent a number of options to the Board of '7"390 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7, 2008 County Commissioners, and one of which will be no pier. So there will be a number of them. It's not my business to get into those. But on May 13th, the Collier County eommissioners will be presented with a whole new look at this project and give staff direction on what to do next, And my take on it will be that if everything goes as planned, it should be very favorable to everybody up in North Naples who has opposed this pier. That's it. eOLEMAN CONNELL: l11ank you. Any other issues? Ted, this is one that you were interested in did you wish to continue with this? TED RAJA: Well, I guess there may not be a need for it, but I thought that with this new ordinance that the commissioners wanted us to voice concerns in the community to them and not only carry information from the commissioners to us, I thought I would make a motion that the Services Division opposes the pier. It appears that it is at least a quasi-dead issue now, but it can always be resurrected. On the other hand, my personal feeling is that there is definitely a need to improve the sanitary facilities there. There is no question about that. And I don't want the public to think, in any way, that Pelican Bay doesn't want to cooperate with that. On the other hand, I have some suspicions about them building a huge building at the end of Vanderbilt Beach Drive that will take away the turnaround there and then disrupt. And I personally would not oppose them expanding the current location, but they would need the permission of the Foundation to make a change there. If that were the case, there would be no pier, or any significant change, without the permission of Pelican Bay and the Vanderbilt Beach Association, a three-way agreement. This way, we can put to rest, forever, the pier, but at the same time, they get what they really need, improved sanitary conditions. M. JAMES BURKE: I think it's a good idea, first, you had better check with Heidi if we can issue these kind of edicts, you know? I think to be constructive and not just always negative, I think what Ted is saying makes sense. We oppose the construction of the Vanderbilt pier as presented, but we encourage the 7391 Pelican Bay Set'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 applicable parties to cooperate to expand the sanitary facilities in the current site, certainly not at the end of Vanderbilt pier I think that would be a constructive. JOHN DOMEN[E: Vanderbilt Road? M. JAMES BURKE: Vanderbilt Road, yes That would be a constructive proposal on our part JOHN PETTY: Mr ehalrman? COLEMAN CONNELL Yes, sir JOHN PETTY: I'm not counsel, but I think I can speak to the issue that Mr. Burke brought up. I think there are two ways for you to address this, One is for you to ask your liaison to take these thoughts, if they are your thoughts, to the government officials at the eounty, to relay to that to them. I think that was one of the reasons we have the liaison Secondly, [ think if it is something that you think has major importance that you can give a letter that is not binding I don't know that this one has that kind of appeal, because I think it's pretty well decided. I think the issue here is more about how we work it through in the future. So I think it is appropriate for you all to discuss the community issue and to give some direction to your liaison for reflecting the views as you know them in Pelican Bay But it is not within your jurisdiction to make a decision. It is WIthin your jurisdiction to give a voice, TED RAIA: And it's only a voice. We have absolutely no authority to grant approval or to disapprove anything. It's just an opportunity to let the eommissioners know the sentiment here. M. JAMES BURKE: Welt you have probably already read eommissioner Halas's commentary, Now, he is only one of five, And that's why r would encourage us to be positive about this. I don't know how we do this. r mean, I have talked to all of the eommissioners and] know there is at least one of them that wants to take it to a referendum of the entire C ollnty MARY ANNE WOlVlBLE: So, Jim. what you really want us to do is go on the record, as a board. suggesting that we don't teel in compliance with the idea of a Vanderbilt pier but we do not oppose the 7392 Pelican Bay Se.-vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 facilities being expanded and upgraded? M. JAMES BURKE: Yes. We would encourage that. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Okay. So when you said "positive," I just wanted to make sure that I understood what you were saying. M. JAMES BURKE: What Ted is saying is right because if all of a sudden there is a little item in the paper that Pelican Pay opposes the expansion of sanitary facilities that could be sensitive. And I became sold on this. I took a tour from the Ritz on a very busy day on the beach. And I don't know how many people here are fiuniliar with Vanderbilt Beach. As I was taken into the sanitary facility, I said a prayer, please, God, never put me in a JXlsition to have to use these. So anyway, in these meetings, the communities resoundingly said, yes, upgrade the facilities. JOHN DOMENIE: But, excuse me; is it up to us? M. JAMES BURKE: No. JOHN DOMENIE: And we cannot tell the Foundation. The FOWldation is going to have to approve that. So I don't know if we should make a motion at all that . . . .. M JAMES BURKE: Well, Pelican Bay , JOHN DOMENIE: As individuals, I think we can. But as a board, I'm a little bit hesitant. eOLEMAN CONNELL: Let me Wlderstand. The Foundation has the final approval; is that correct? M JAMES BURKE: And Wel eOLEMAN CONNELL: WC\. Yes, M. JAMES BURKE: And the Foundation. ROBERT PENDERGRASS: Well, it's very easy. I mean, we talked about who is resJXlnsible for what. Why don't we ask the chairman, for example, to write a letter, just suggesting that we appreciate that 7393 Pelican Bay Se.vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 there is not going to be a pIer, but we encourage you to go ahead with the facilities. I mean, we could ask somebody to wTite a letter and let's ask the ehairman to write a letter. eOLEMAN CONNELL: To whom should the letter be sene JOHN PETfY: Sir, it should be sent to your counterpart or to the eounty Administrator. Your counterpart would be our representative on the commission. COLEMAN eONNELL Perhaps to both" JOHN PETrY: This is a commumty issue and you are voicing a consensus of the board, not a ruling. ROBERT PENDERGRASS: Well, I move that the ehairman write a letter, as we discussed, to his counterpart and to the foundation. COLEMAN eONNELL And it's applauding the updating of the sanitary facility, and also for listening to the public, ROBERT PENDERGRASS: And not having the pier be built. eOLEMAN CONNELL: I understand, Marcia, did you want to say something? MARCIA CRAVENS I just wdnted to say I thought probably the most important part of Dr. Raia's suggestion were the covenants with the County that would preclude them from putting any structure in the future at the end of Vanderbilt Beach Drive. JOHN PETTY: Mr. Chainnan, while that may be a valid point of discussion for those agencies that have that jurisdiction such as the Foundation, it IS not within our jurisdiction to discuss. We don't have the authority, TED RAIA: It's not gOlllg 10 preclude that in the letter. But I think, you know, hopefuHy the Foundation would consider something lIke that. And it would be nice to tie in Vanderbilt Beach Association wIth that, to show that we want to cooperate with them, and,. 7394 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 M JAMES BURKE: It's my understanding that if the County already chose to put the expanded facilities right there in front of the beach entrance, they can do it. There is no impediment to it. JOHN PETTY: Mr. Burke probably knows better, The last I heard, there was an article in the paper. I apologize. I do not know if this is a fact. But it was my understanding that it was going to cause a zoning change to put the pier in. To put the bathrooms in, I don't think you need it. No. But for the pier, yes, MARY ANNE WOMBLE: I think that as long as they are on the exact site that they are right now. JOHN PETrY: I would asswne the square footage of this facility is going to say whether or not it requires a zoning change or not. But I would think the bathroom additions would not cause a change to zonmg. JOHN PETrY: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman? COLEMAN eONNELL Yes. JOHN PETTY: You had a motion second, but I don't believe you made a call. COLEMAN eONNELL: Thank you very much. MARY ANN WOMBLE: I will second it. COLEMAN CONNELL: What was the motion? Wait a minute. We don't have a motion on that, do we? JOHN PETTY: Mr. Pendergrass made a motion... .., ... MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Mr. Pendergrass made a motion to ... COLEMAN CONNELL: To write the letter. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Write the letter., JOHN PETrY: Thank you MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Applauding commissioners. 7395 Pelican Bay Sel-vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 ..Hr. Rohert Pendergrlls.\ mOl'ed, .\ecOIuled by ,ils. /I"(/ry Allne Womble, to .write (l letter to the Comminioner that we applaUtI their decision not t.o huilti t.he Vanderbilt pier bitt support their tied.fioll to uptlate tire sanitary facilities. 11le motion passed by a ).'ofe of 8 to 1 with ~Jr. John Domen;e casting the dissenting vole. -- --- - -- -- - - - -- - -- -- -- - - - -- -- - eOLEMAN eONNELL All in favor'" Opposed') JOHN DOMENlE: I oppose eOLEMAN eON NELL I know I went past you, Jim, on" MARY ANNE WOMBLE Just a moment. Do we have one opposition? JOHN DOMENIE: Yes, I don't think we should wnte the letter as a board, but I don't know for sure without Heidi here, M. JAMES BURKE: I don't think there IS any problem eo LEMAN eONNELL: We can run it by Heidi. GOVERNMENT REALTIONS - STOP SIGN POLICY COLEMAN CONNELL Stop sign policy Mr. Burke? M JAMES BURKE The stop sign policy Vel}' quickly Kyle, you can help me out. There are some communities that approached me who do not have a stop SIgn coming out of their community. Many of tiS do and many don't. And the history on that is and. Kyle, correct me iff am wTong. But when we made the changes to the new-styled stop Sib'll, we replaced all of the stop signs that were out there, whether they were ours or not. And the commumties that didn't have stop signs didn't get the new stop signs To the best of my knowledge, there is no community oUtCI)' for putting stop signs in, 1l1is community is the first one that I have heard of And so I asked Kvle about it. And Kyle explained to me why we don't do it. But we don't really have a policy on not doing it. I think it's Beauville and Lantana, The combined community. '396 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7, 2008 JOHN PETrY: Mr. Chairman, I think he is right. We do not have a policy on this. I think this is a matter of as just stated. We had a project We completed the project, and we don't have any additional funds allocated for it. And staff really doesn't have a strong opinion, one way or the other. The issue here is whether or not the district wishes to pay for the signs that would be architecturally identical to ours, but they would be out of the right of way. Now, you don't want staff to install them. You, basically, just want to hand them over or give them a place to purchase it, with us paying for the cost of the sign, so that you have that architectural theme throughout Pelican Bay. JOHN IAIZZO: It would be on their property, too? JOHN PETTY: Yes, It would be on their property and maintained by them, but for that continuity, since we did it for some when we did the original change-out, we would need to come back to the board for direction. And I think that's what Mr. Burke was asking. M JAMES BURKE: Yes. I guess what our position is, is if it's not our right of way or our property, we don't install then. But if you're going to do it yourself, you have to use the same one. And if your community really wants it, there should be no trouble cutting the cost up. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: So it comes down to communicating with every community, that if they should so desire a stop sign, they need to be contacting us, letting us know, so that we can supply the stop sign. M JAMES BURKE: Yes. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: To go along with all of the others, but they have to pay for the sign and put it up; is that correct? M JAMES BURKE: What do one of those cost, roughly? JOHN PETTY: If you want to give everybody the famolls lottery number so they all win, yes. You tell everybody they get a free sign. 7397 Pelican Bay Selvices Division Meeting Mav 7.2008 MARY ANNE WOMBLE I didn't say. "free," I said they have to pay for it In order to put one up. they must contact us so that we have the same throughout. JOHN PETTY: Yes, And Kyle has told me that the stop sign would normally align with the white stop bar, which mayor may not be in the light of way, depending on where they place it in their driveway. So there may also be additional requirements, because if they place it in the right of way, they may have to comply with Collier eounty as well, but we can walk them through that M JAMES BURKE Mr ehamnan is it JIm Donovan? JIM DONOVAN: That's correct M. JAMES BURKE: [asked somebody from that community to come over here and state their position on It. Just give us your name and position JIM DONOVAN Yes, sir, I am Jim Donovan, I am the former president of the Beauville Association. And we share an entrance with Lantana, We haven't made a careful survey of this. But we have been hard-pressed to find very many, if any other exits, onto major roads that we go on, where signs do not exist We think this IS not our property where that sign would be. It's the road right of way. [think we're talking about a big-time safety issue here, And that's the reason why we have dozens, if not hundreds, of stop signs throughout Pelican Bay. We think it's appropriate to have it there. We see that it makes sense that as the aSSOCiations come to you, and we don't think they are many, because they are all covered with the stop signs. We are one. It's not beyond our property. but we think. for safety's sake, it should be there. We would be happy to arrange to put it up, but we don't see anything wrong with PBSD. assuming that it's a reasonable expense, Because they paid for all the other ones that have ever been requested or asked for. And this is just an unusual overSIght, which we would urge just be authorized for us as an exception that was left out and should have been done a long time ago and wasn't, because it's in the interest of safety of our 60-unit commulllty, and I think needs to be done 7398 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 M JAMES BURKE: 60 units. Is it two together? TIM DONOVAN: Correct. And we share that exit, common exit. COLEMAN eONNELL: Let me understand. The sign faces where: In towards your property or out toward the roadway? JIM DONOVAN: Yes. It would be the normal position where those signs would exist for the other 80 communities or whatever there are. eOLEMAN CONNELL: To stop a car coming out of the community? JIM DONOVAN: That's all. That's all. And most all of them, all that we know, had such a sign, and even some that have four homes and stuff like that. And we're at 60. The sign should be there. And some terrible thing could happen, and we would like to be consistent with the rest. And that's why we think it would be appropriate if PBSD would say, sure. We will get it for you. You pay to put it in or however you want. And it would be consistent with everything else COLEMAN eONNELL: Well, I will be glad to stand corrected, but I recall, for instance, in my own community then, in Calais, we had just put up a new stop sign. One that was low, because we don't have any big trucks coming out of those roadways. And the County came along, took our new sign out, and put in the one - not the County, Pelican Bay, and put it in. So my point is that I believe that every one that you see today replaced one that had been put in by that particular community. I'm just trying to be consistent. JIM DONOVAN: All I can tell you is that we have a problem in the making, and we're trying to be sensible about it. And that's our purpose for coming here is we would like to join in with all of the rest of the community to have that signage. We will put it wherever you tell us. And we would just like consistency in having it match and taken care of like everybody else. eOLEMAN eONNELL: Staff, if you would work something up and. . . . 7399 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 JOHN PETTY We already know what the price is, It's going to top out at $1,500, if we put street names, 1 believe, at the top of it And Kyle has eSllmated about $600 or less, if it's just a stop sign, That's what it would cost We can either tell them and they can buy it themselves. Kyle has set it up so it can be purchased locally And they can install it Or if this board decides that this is something they will consider on a case by case, or if you wish to make a policy, whatever is your pleasure, we will be glad to follow it Again, staff doesn't have a strong opinion here, other than to say that we think we got all of the stop signs in before, And the use of the word "oversight" makes a twitch happen right here below my eye. COLEMAN eON NELL Yes, JOHN PETTY: But I believe that this is a matter of just keeping a unifoffi1look and feel to Pelican Bay nM DONOVAN I suspect if you consider this on a case-by-case basis, I think this will probably be the last case you will have, eOLEMAN eON NELL 1 hope you're right M. JAMES BURKE: Kyle, you don't get frequent calls or requests for this? KYLE LUKASZ: No. Everyone that had a stop sign back when we did the conversion for the cast aluminum signs from the old wooden style, any condominium or any driveway that had one of the old wooden style signs, as you exited the property, was replaced with cast aluminum. Projects that didn't have any signage were just left alone, And the condominium or project that had a wooden sign was originally paid for by that particular project or developer MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Kyle, in your meanderings around Pelican Bay, which are constant, have you got a clue how many that might be that do not have stop signs? KYLE LUKASZ: There are other ones out there, but I don't believe there are that many. I mean, I can come back and make a count I mean, we don't have anyone else at this time that has made a recent 74GO Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 request for a sign to be installed. We have in the past. And the couple we that we had, we told them what the policy was when we did the conversion. And I don't know if they actually went ahead and paid for their own sign and had it put in. We didn't really follow up to see if there was a sign up. eOLEMAN CONNELL: I think we should be consistent. That's all I would say, JOHN DOMENIE: Who is paying for it? Well, that was the question: Who is paying for it? JOHN PETTY: No, sir. We're waiting to hear the answer. M JAMES BURKE: Well, my question would be: Let's say we go ahead and we put this in, install it at our expense; would that open the floodgates? Would there be hundreds of others that would be coming in? JOHN PETTY: I don't believe it's hundreds. I think we're thinking of maybe twenty or so, tops. KYLE LUKASZ: I bet maybe a dozen, if that. JOHN PETTY: That's why you may want to consider this on a case-by-case basis, because it still may change. If a hurricane comes through, we may be looking at considerable dollars. So maybe you will want to do it on a case by case. JOHN DOMENIE We should be consistent. TED RAIA: But whose property is it that the sign is going on? M JAMES BURKE: Well, my understanding of it there, it depends on where you position it, you're on eounty property or the association. JIM DONOVAN: I think it would depend on whether how far the stop sign is from the street. We have about twenty to thirty feet back that is part of the road the right of way. And the remainder then is us. . Anywhere in there is fine for us, including this. But back to the point of a case by case, I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't had another case of this. JOHN PETTY: Mr. ehainnan, a possible compromise is -- since we're talking about architectural 7401 Pelican Bay Sel'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 poles, which we are trying to get a look and feel for, is it possible for consideration that Pelican Bay Services Division would contribute the pole for the si!o,'n, The installation or any street signs that have to come from an approved source, that that all be bome by the property ovvner" COLEMAN eONNELL I think that's reasonable, as long as the owner of the organization understands that they will be getting a bill for the sign and any street signs that have to go on it. But we will be providing the ornamental pole JIM DONOVAN: I'm Just asking for clarification, sir. You will install . JOHN PETTY: No, sir. We will supply the pole. We will charge you for the signs that you request on it, which is the double reflective stop sign, whIch is a standard. And if you want street signs on the top, JIM DONOVAN: No, sir. No, sir. At the end of the, JOHN PETTY Well, then, that's just the stop sign which isn't too much money, T think they only charge for double reflective stop SIgnS, what, about $1,500 bucks? KYLE LUKASZ: $50 JOHN PETTY $50 Excuse me: 1 was a little off And the installation would be done by your person. A handyman can install these things, basically. Since you are not in a traffic pattern, I don't think the Breakaway part of the signs is critical you're doing three miles an hour, so you should be all right. And, basically, what we're saying is, Pelican Bay Services Division or this board is considering corning up with the cost of that architectural SIgn, which is a major component. You end up paying for the verticals. JIM DONOY AN: Anyway, you're saying the association will buy the stop sign or whatever it is, as you deem appropriate, and install it I'm sure that's a satistactory solution and a nice compromise. And safety wins here and that's what it's all about. M. JAMES BURKE And diVIded by. what. 60 units? 60 units? JIM DONOY AN 60 units, correct /-{U2 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7, 2008 TED RAJA: I assume this sign should be close or near an intersection, I presume. Especially, you're talking about a street sign. Whose property is it that the street signs are for? JIM DONOVAN: The street signs are farther in the property. There is a two-lane exit road that has nothing on it at all, and that's about 100 feet long, inside the property and then come the street signs. So there are no street signs. JOHN PETTY: Mr. Chairman, the stop signs that we had replaced in the past was not so much for the street, but was for the pathway; at first, the stop sign usually preceded the pathway. And then you were supposed to slowly proceed to the street. I think that was the concept. So if you want to do this as a policy with a standard that the sign's intended location must be within X number of feet of the sidewalk or the path of the sidewalk, because that's what you want to. . . . M JAMES BURKE: The little sidewalk there? JOHN PETTY: Then I think Dr. Raia's concerns about getting it close to the right of way are valid. Because that's exactly where we don't want it up at the top of the circle, before you make a turn into another facility. This is strictly for. COLEMAN eONNELL: And how does the road.,.... ..... JIM DONOVAN: The objective is to stop the cars and prevent. COLEMAN CONNELL: And out of the roadway. JOHN PETTY: Well, the first stop out of the roadway is us. And we would do that. This is for the first stop coming out of the development, is it not? JOHN IAIZZO: No. This is internal, right? Jim, I didn't mean no, it is not internal. JOHN PETTY: We were so close, Mr. ehainnan. I felt it. We were so close. M JAMES BURKE: It's not on the street? JOHN DOMENIE: It's on private property. 7403 Pelican Bay Se,'Vices Division Meeting Mav 7, 2008 JOHN PETTY Me ehainnan, my mistake He does not have a sidewalk where he IS located, So, I'm sorry. I apologize. I thought you were on , JIM DONOVAN: Then the conclusion. I think, is appropriate and, eOLEMAN CONNELL: Very good We will form a motion to that effect. All in tllVor? I need a motion first. ROBERT PENDERGRASS: I move that we install the pole, that the Services Division pays for the poles and that the association pays for the signage that goes with it. JOHN PETTY If I could, Me Chairman, could I suggest that if we provided the pole, not install. ROBERT PENDERGRASS You provide Right. I meant to say "provide" eOLEMAN eONNELL: Do you have a second? ROBERT PENDERGRASS Second" COLEMAN eONNELL: Any further discussion? All in favor" Opposed? No one. Thank you. Mr. Rohert Pendergrass nwved to fJnn'ide the stop sigll pole (lnd Beauville {Inti Lantana will }Jt{J' jilT the stop sign {Inti to hm'e it instnlled Motion was unaninwuslyapprm..etl - - -- - - -- - - - -- - -- - -- - - - - ADMINSTRATOR'S REPORT - JEA,"I SMITH STATUS COLEMAN CONNELL: And. Jolm, I'm sony. I went by the administrator's report and you want to report on Jean Smith? JOHN PETTY Me Chairman, in our last meeting, we told the board what the eounty's current policy was and how it had affected some six to nine months of sick leave that Jean still had on her credit. And it went not to her tavor, but to a calculatIOn of ,alue of the outstanding amount. We asked the board to consider whether they would wish 10 otfer to the County an exception to this. where in Pelican Bay, who had already committed to paying for all of her Sick days. would honor that during thIS time of illness. And 7404 Pelican Bay Sel'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 the board approved that. We took it to our County administrator, who then took it to legal, through the HR Department, and came back with the sad news that they are unavailable to provide that exception. So at this time, we appreciate the board's good intentions, but we are unable to complete those intentions at this time. JOHN WZZO: It's a issue of JOHN PETTY: Through the eounty system, yes, sir, it is. JOHN IAIZZO: Could you explain this process of medical care that the County provides their employees if they are terminated because they cannot return? The medical should still go on since they were sick at the time they were working for the County. And when that time runs out, they should be going under COBRA. JOHN PET1Y: They are under eOBRA. And Jean is participating in COBRA, at her cost, at this current time, even though she may have somewhere between six to nine months of outstanding sick time with the County. Now, this is a fairly recent change. And what bas been reviewed or reflected in past laws, where your sick time was generally a practice that followed you, if you were sick for six months, and you had that kind of time approved, you got six months. If you were sick for two years and you had that kind of time, you got two years. The eounty Administrator and the assistant administrator were surprised at this turn of events. This is the first time he had seen it in action. I was surprised at it. There is a FMLA that has some new legal significance in that. It does allow for this termination after a set period. That's, basically, ninety days, because you have to get somebody in the saddle, so to speak. You can provide exceptions or extensions, rather, to that, as you see fit. The County has a hard and fast policy that they . provide one extension of thirty days, only if you're approved. That's why in this case, they can't go past that. So for us, we have no further recourse with the eounty. We are doing this, of course, based off counsel's suggestion that it wouldn't hurt to try to go to the county administrator and seek it. We did. They weren't 7405 Pelican Bay Sel'Vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 able to cut through any of the red tape, They are going through tax reform right now and one of their main objectives is to stabilize the cost of their staff They are not even considering any exceptions of any kind in any area. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: It seems like ex post facto should take something with that, since she was hired with the understanding that she had that kmd of a commitment from her employer. I guess not, huh? JOHN PETTY: [think that's a very good point. And 1 don't want to say that anybody from Pelican Bay Services DiviSion staff counseled her to get her own attorney. TED RAlA: Just go to the Fair Labor Relations Board. JOHN PETTY: But you raised a very good point. You raise a very good point, And I have experienced, in my career, actionable issues of much lesser quality than this, So I'm sure the eounty is fully aware of their achons and their position, and are responding to the best that they possibly can, that they think. We have no real alternative here at all. We have not heard from Jean for some time. So I can't tell you what her status is. But the last 1 talked to her son was that Jean was taking her medication as a good soldier, and was carrying on and was doing well wlth the treatment process. !'vir. ehairman, I have nothing further to add. eo LEMAN CONNELL: Thank you Let's see, We have no plan reviews. Any committee requests? JOHN DOMENIE: I have. Where do we send the DEP , JOHN PETTY: I'm sorry, Mr. Chainnan Now that you bring up plan reviews, we have the finals here in our office, If you need a copy, Barbara can give it to you. JOHN DOMENlE: And are we planmng to gIve them to Commissioners? Are we planning to give 7 'ot ~i 6 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 one to the Foundation? JOHN PETTY: We have given to the Commissioners and the Foundation. JOHN DOMENIE: Okay. JOHN PETTY: So we plan to give it to almost anybody that would take a copy. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: We were talking about sending it to Tallahassee? JOHN PETTY: To DEP. And, yes. We will. We have already told them that we would be sending them a copy. I think we have given them the rough-cut version, but the final which I haven't seen yet, is supposed to be a little bit better. TED RAIA: We were going to include it with the request for the permit and the permit extension. JOHN PETTY: They have expressed an interest in viewing it. We told them about it. So, Mr, Chairman, before I forget, ifI may? eOLEMAN CONNELL: Yes. JOHN PETTY: I want to finish. There is an issue that I need to bring up for permit applications, but I can do that after Mr. Domenie, if you will allow. JOHN DOMENIE: I have one other. And I missed the March meeting. And before the March meeting, I sent you, John and, unfortunately, Heidi is not here. I sent a copy to her in E-mail, regarding n I'm sorry, regarding somebody sitting on this board, and, also, sitting on the board of the Pelican Bay Foundation Because if I go in front of the Pelican Bay Foundation to discuss anything that they may ask me to discuss, whether it's something to do with Pelican Bay, elam Bay, we would be in violation of the Sunshine Law. JOHN lAIZZO: Only if we're there. Only if. JOHN DOMENIE: No. If two of us are there. JOHN IAIZZO: Oh, yes. Okay. Yes. 7407 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 JOHN DOMENIE So I asked for gUIdance on that And if that was permitted or what should be done about that? Alld 1 think it stymies us in a certain way that 1 like to attend all of the meetings. And I will express my feelings, if things have to do that affect Pelican Bay Services Division And I had asked for a ruling from Heidi on this matter. COLEMAN eONNELL: Well, is that the deciding factor, whatever it is you are discussing or talking about is whether or not it would come before this body for a vote? So you can talk about that or anything else you want. They are not in our province, but you're providing resource to whoever is asking you about it JOHN DOMENlE: No. But there can be cases that come up for a vote here, COLEMAN eONNELL: In which case, I guess you really should not be there, TED RAIA: Well, no, No, No I would say that Robert as long as Robert doesn't respond to whatever, John's comments are, there is no problem See, if Robert has to, he would have to recuse himself, because you would have a right to address the Foundation Board. So he would have to recuse himself if there were something. JOHN DOMENlE: Well, what happened to me was the first time I mentioned it to Bob, he was under the impression that the Foundation Board was under the Sunshine Law. TED RAIA: Oh, well. ObViously, they are not JOHN PETTY: Mr. ehalrman, .Just a few pomts here. You're talking about a contlict of interest now, where he would recuse himself from above, and that's where he is going to get a financial gain. And I don't think he is gomg to get money horn either one of these groups, Sir, when it comes to a perceived contlict, we have gotten the opinion from counsel that being on both is not a contlict And it is perfectly legitimate for you, as a resident. to express your rights as a resident. and discuss any matter that is on the Foundation's agenda. As illS 'llIfS to discuss any matter that is on the agenda of this board, Your rights are 7,:r,O,!j Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 not to be limited by Sunshine. But you're not supposed to be openly creating a cabal, if you will, outside of this publicly agendized meeting. [n here, you can try to get all of the partnerships you want. Over at the Foundation, you should not do so if it is going to reflect any action this board may take. So I think it's a legitimate item of concern, but we have gotten legal opinion, that it is not a conflict. I think it is something that we try to keep our high standards to. But I don't want to tell any board member here that they shouldn't exhibit their rights by going to the Foundation and yelling at them just as much as you all yell here. As a matter offact, Jim is gone now. I would appropriate if you would do that a little bit. eOLEMAN CONNELL: Thank you. Motion? JOHN DOMENIE: Motion to.. TED RAlA: John has something else. eOLEMAN CONNELL: John has something else. JOHN PETTY: I'm sony. Mr. ehairman, we had asked for a housekeeping issue, It has to do with permit applications. There is a permit that is out there. It's a small modification for this facility to do a little parking addition. I think you all have probably heard about it. And we talked with the engineers who said do we have to submit an application to you or do we submit it straight to South Florida? And he said, well, you submit it to us, of course. He goes, well, I have one with South Florida for what they did two or three years ago. Possible. It turns out, it is. It turns out that quite a few developments in Pelican Bay had submitted directly to South Florida in the last ten years or so. And that's going to be a housekeeping issue when we have to go back now and talk to South Florida and clean these things up and bring them into our permit and make sure they are in conformance. Dr Raia, you asked me how it was possible that a , development may have been permitted years ago. It's possible that it could have been permitted under this type of scenario where it doesn't come back to the board for a decision, but it is done administratively that somebody applied directly to South Florida versus through us. So the lowest common denominator would 7409 Pelican Bay Sel'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 be applied instead of the parcel requirements that we use. So we would like to ask the board for an amount not to exceed $15,000 to contact Wilson Miller to work with us through South Florida and coming together with a scope and help clean up this matter, If that's agreeable, we would also move.. TED RAIA: So moved. eOLEMAN eONNELL: Second? May I have a second? JOHN PETTY: Our water management system h JOHN DOMENIE Second, eOLEMAN eONNELL: Okay, I know we have a diSCUSSIon. What is the worst thing that could happen? JOHN PETTY: The worst thmg that could happen from this particular job is that I would come back with a much bigger proposal for money That's the worst that could happen with the $15,000 Because we're basically going to go in there and talk with South Florida and see the scope of the situation, We're hopeful that it is simply a housekeeping matter and we can resolve it by a simple meeting with South Florida. But if it requires a recalculation of any of the basic criteria of our permit that would probably be the worst-case scenario, That could cost upwards of $50,000 to $75,000 [am suspecting, but I don't know that we're at that quite yet JOHN DOMENlE: eould we go back to the people who bypassed us and get it from them? JOHN PETTY: No. sIr No, sir I don't believe so. I don't think anybody acted illegally or immorally. I think they submitted to South Florida as the entity that they knew to submit In their minds, PBID may have been dissolved instead of continuing on under the County, And several engineering firms Iiad gotten into the practice of submitting to South Florida and just didn't JOHN DOMENJE: This case is the same as , JOHN PETTY: Possibly It's possible 7410 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7, 2008 JOHN DOMENIE: We haven't heard from Wilson Miller on that, have we? JOHN PETTY: Oh, yes, we have. It failed, Its impervious amount was in the 70 percent. It's allowed in the high forties, so we had to deny them on that. And then we called their office and said this is not a personal issue. It's strictly based on the calculations. They said that they had made an error. They had not included the pervious area that is part of our retention, which they are perfectly entitled to include, and that they are going to resubmit. So we will look at it COLEMAN eONNElL: Well, if this goes back into the nineties, why wouldn't staff back then, I will say Jim Ward, have gotten anything to approve or disapprove. JOHN PETIY: Well, that's exactly how it all came to the issue of understanding. They found a project that had bypassed PBID. Jim called. They met with South Florida. South Florida said that they had the right to modifY a permit. And they got that opinion from their legal office. And we concurred that they did have the right. But since the agreement is a two-party agreement that we would also have to comply before we were held accountable to the new permit. They can rewrite the permit all they want, but they can't hold me accountable to it unless they sign off on it. The two parties must agree. They agreed to that and said that they would not sign off on any other project without the administrator's okay, from that point forward. So from that point forward, any special exception did not require a board action. All they required was the administrator's action. eOLEMAN eONNELL: So those are all valid from that point forward; is what you're saying, correct? JOHN PETTY: Well, they are all valid. They have,. COLEMAN eONNELL: I shouldn't use the word "valid." JOHN PETTY: They were all processed. JOHN lAIZZO: It looks like we don't have a choice on it. 7411 Pelican Bay Sen,ices Division Meeting Mav 7, 2008 TED RAJA Well. this is what we're dealing with, apparently, now it's 81,9 percent is impervious; is that right? JOHN PETTY: It was III the high 70s. 81, lED RAIA: And 81 ,9 percent. And how much are they allowed? KYLE LUKASZ: 46, I believe. TED RAIA: Just 46 impervious And it's at 81,9 percent. Now, it's interesting that the original had even more impervious than this new plan that they submitted And, yet, Jim Ward wrote a letter saying everything was okay. So I'm inquiring how could this happen? JOHN IAIZZO: You must have taken the whole community, JOHN PETTY: Well, remember, as I discussed at the last meeting with the board, we have been building up pervious or green space IIIventories since the very beginning of Pelican Bay. That's one of the reasons why our permit, we're required to look at it on a parcel by parcel, water management system by water management system, so that we don't give all the green space away to one or two guys. PBill in the past always left those exceptions to the board's approval process. And, of course, at the time while WCI was here, Westinghouse typically would come to the board and say we think this is in the best interest of Pelican Bay. And we would ask you to allow this exception. And there were a couple of projects that did get exceptions. If I remember, Waterside Shops got an exception because it was considered to be in the best interest of Pelican Bay's development. And I think you all can probably share that it probably is an asset to the community. But we came to vou last month and said that if anybody wants an exception now, staff, in its position of review, must come back to you. We don't have the authority to grant the exceptions. This is a quasi-judicial process, I can look at this permit in its narrow character, and I can check their application for them. The trouble was, once it went to South Florida, South Florida was not looking on a parcel-by-parcel basis, or a water management system by water management system, but wbat was the impervious acreage 7 :i l:~ Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 allowed at Pelican Bay and what was the pervious acreage allowed at Pelican Bay. So they went to the lowest common denominator in their review, which had the last couple of years' benefit of green space left to the developers. They are getting exceptions to our basic review, and have for some time. TED RAIA: Here is the problem I see with this. If it's in South Florida, they must have an overall plan. And then if we started out at 60:40, what is it now, if they have been giving this away? Number one. And, number two, I don't believe it's our right to give another person's right away. There are still almost 900 phantom units out there that, theoretically, could be built here. So there may be green space available at Serendipity, okay, where those people can buy themselves out and put high-rises there. It's legal, because it's a Group 4 area, where you're permitted to put high-rises there. And they would have to put parking for these people. When they go to apply to do this, did we have the right to take that green space away and give it to someone else? If somebody comes in here for this exception, they should specifY where they are getting this green space from, and provide a statement that that association agrees to give up their green space. JOHN DOMENlE: ean they use the green space that's owned by the County, like the median, for that matter? JOHN PETTY: Well, when we look at a parcel by parcel, we're looking at what they own. If they want to try to grab green space from the golf courses or from right of ways, they would, basically, have to get that from an exception by this entity Or they can apply to South Florida, who is just keeping total acreage counts and it says, this many more acres of impervious doesn't upset the apple cart permitted. JOHN DOMENIE: Okay. So they could pave over the entire area and say the golf course has the green space. JOHN PET1Y: South Florida would not reject it if they did so. TED RAIA: The problem that you have to endure is that here, we're dealing with trying to make 7413 Pelican Bay Sel'vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 sure our water stays pure. We're spending all of this money and, here, there is hardly any retention area there, That's gomg to keep the runoff from entermg it So there are other aspects that should be looked at. If we're going to be spending money to prevent this, how can we do something to pennit it? JOHN PETTY: Mr. ehairman, if 1 could, you probably don't have any options here. The permits for this particular system, which is System 4 for this particular group type which is multistory residential or Group 4, they are allowed 46 percent Impervious or 15,12 acres, total, in that system. Now, the last we heard from South Florida, which we need to verify with their engineers, is that South Florida is only looking in a gross bubble, not a system-by-system or parcel by parcel. They are looking on total pervious versus total impervious, which means I may have some problems with system balances. Again, we are looking to get into the situation where we don't have a lot of variance that we can allow. We have to follow this permit, unless we get a new one. So we already have very tight restrictions on us. We're just looking to make sure that our residents and developers are held to the same requirements as we are in the future. And we're going to try to make corrections to any that slip by us in the past eOLEMAN eONNELL To whom do we pay this $15,000'7 JOHN PETTY: We would ask that at the hme, to the engineer, Wilson Miller, who we may have to take out for a couple of days and take to South Florida and West Palm Beach, And if you think I'm flying with that man again, there IS no way, TED RAJA: One other thing John, [ imagine there are let's say Pelican Marsh, that they have the same kind of description? JOHN PETTY: Yes, TED RAlA. So, now, do they have it in their PUD or agreement with the County that they to have a service division or something like that0 JOHN PETTY: They have a commumty development district, an independent district -"-il-1: Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 TED RAJA: So because any development in Pelican Bay, when a developer submits his documents they are given the instructions that they have to give us seven copies of plans and get our approval. And it lists various things for approval. How can that be circumvented and go somewhere else to get this approval? Are they required to come here or not? JOHN PElTY: They are not. TED RAJA: So the meeting, this requirement is really not a requirement? JOHN PETTY: Because of our unique relationship with the eounty, because we are not a legally defined or entitled entity, that in the end, the County eommission. JOHN IAIZZO: Overrides. TED RAJA: There is no question about it. We can deny something here and then go to a committee. But I think, still, the first step should be through us. JOHN PETTY: As long as you agree to that, then, yes. The first step can be us, and all I need is ,. TED RAIA: You mean, it should be us. Then they can override us. I mean. JOHN PETIY: This is not unusual for South Florida to have a problem. As you may have known, they have issued a water shortage during one of the wettest springs we have ever had. South Florida has made boo-boos in the past. They will make boo-boos in the future. We just want to talk to them about this as a housekeeping matter, to clean it up, so they don't make boo-boos for us. JOHN DOMENIE: Well, then, why do we have to look at it at all? JOHN PETIY: That's exactly my position. When I go to meet with South Florida, that's going to be exactly what my position is. Guys, if you're going to review it, then I'm going to send you all of the buckets and bolts that we have got and you're going to keep it clean, too. And if you do all the water quality, my people in Pelican Bay are going to save $800,000 a year that they are currently paying to maintain the South Florida Water Management District System. Because you cannot make modifications to hold me 7415 Pelican Bay Services Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 accountable for it That's something that people at Pelican Bay will not sit by for, I don't believe But that's why we're asking for the funds so that we can skIp the engineer, spend a little of consultant's time at the standard rate that's been approved by Collier eounty through the bid process, I believe. And he is on our standard list And we .Just .JOHN DOMENIE 1 don't understand why you're asking us then to spend $15,000 on something that we will have no control over in any case, or am I missing the point completely? JOHN PETTY: Well, that's almost everything we have in our budget, sir. That's over 6 million dollars of decisions that we make yearly, that we really don't have the final say in, that we're not a legally entitled entity. So 1 don't think I would take it that far This is an issue that I think Pelican Bay is extremely interested in. Its water management system is vital to what is Pelican Bay, It is your first line of defense and first protection of the clam bay system, It protects you during hurricanes and it holds your water and keeps your system sound. So it is very important that we keep our eyes open, The fact that some parcels have slipped by us and have been approved by the South Florida Water Management District is certainly something we want to address, And 1 think we can do so under our new. .JOHN DOMENIE: We cannot retroactively tell them to make changes through their water management once it's been approved. JOHN PETTY: We cannot make them tear down any buildings, no, sir, or a tennis court, or a pool but what we can do is take those ISSUes, put them into our binding water management permit, do an update, and make sure that it never happens again. That's what we can do. And there are many modifications going on through the existing facility that you should be concerned about the future The fact that some have passed by in the past, don't be disheartened by that It is definitely an error. TED RAIA: Excuse me, John. A comment was made before about there being an odor. To me, 1 don't think it was by aCCident that they bypassed Pelican Bay ServIce Division. They went to a place where 7416 Pelican Bay Sel"Vices Division Meeting Mav 7. 2008 they knew they were about to get what they wanted to get. Now, you know those people prohably and what I want to establish here, even though they come over here, at least we want to know what's going on. If we don't exercise that right now, we will never know what's going on. To me, this was shocking to learn that this has been going on all of this time. Now we have to stop it. eOLEMAN CONNELL: Well, to me, it's a matter of jurisdiction. And we thought we had jurisdiction. We didn't. TED RAIA: But, technically, we don't have jurisdiction. The jurisdiction lies in the. . . COLEMAN CONNELL: My memOlY has failed me. Do we have a motion to approve this? JOHN PElTY: I think we have a motion for the $15,000- COLEMAN eONNELL: May I have a motion for the $15,000 to initiate this investigation and possible solution? JOHN DOMENIE: Second, COLEMAN eONNEll: Who made the motion? JOHN DOMENIE: You did. MARY ANNE WOMBLE: Dr. Raia made the motion. Dr. Tetl Raia nwveti, seclmtletl by Mr. John lJomenie. anti unanimouslJ' approvetl to authorize the expense of $15,000.00 to Wilson, Milkr to inve.'itigate possible solutions from past plnn approval that tIid not come before PBSD. COLEMAN eONNELL: Great. I won't ask if there is any further discussion. All in favor? Opposed? Thank you. TED RAIA: Let's go home. eOLEMAN eONNELL: May I have a motion to adjourn, please? M1eHAEL LEVY: Let's go home. 7417 elam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF THE Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting Thursday, February 21, 2008 LET IT BE REMEMBERED that a meeting was hejd for all interested parties in the Clam Bay Estuary, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 AM at Coastal Zone Management, 3300 Santa Barbara Boulevard, Naples, Florida, with the following speakers: DISCUSSION COMMITTEE: Gary McAlpin, Coastal Zone Management Director Dave Tomasko, PBS&J - Consultant Councilman John F. Sorey III, CAC Member Jim Burke, CAC and PBSD Member Coleman Connell, Chairman ofPBSD Mike Bauer, City of Naples PUBLIC PRESENT: Gail Hambright, CC Tourist Tax Coordinator Pamela Keyes, CC Environmental Specialist John Petty Janice Larnen David Roellig Doug Finley Bryn Wombje Eric Staats Kathy Worley Mary Ann Womble Tom Cravens Marcia Cravens Martha Dykeman Tim Hall Kyle Luckas (];J GJ Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 OpeniDl! Remarks Gary McAlpin - Meeting was called to order at 9:00am with each individual introducing themselves. This meeting was noticed by both the CAC and the PBSD Board. Councilman Sorey noted for the media that this meeting had been properly noticed as a number of members were present from various boards. ~) .......- .~ ~,,' ; There are a number of issues that needed to be addressed relative to this estuary and the Tomasko report created a need to take a broader look at these issues. We have been talking back and forth as a county for a period of time and it was suggested that we get together as a working group, to invite members of the community, to talk-iiboiitsome of these issues and how we would move forward to address them. , L We invited Jim Burke who is on the Pelican Bay Services Division Board of Directors along with Coleman Connell who is Chairman of that Board to be part of this discussion group and represent the Pelican Bay Services Division. The City of Naples has expressed an interest to be part of this discussion group because part of Clam Bay resides in the City of Naples. We have asked Councilman Sorey and Mike Bauer to be part of this group and I am here to represent Collier County. We also said we would involve consultants as needed and for this meeting David Tomosko has been invited. Dave has some issues relative to water quality that he wants to talk about and discuss. The objective .9l..this,"work group is to discuss what we consider the loose ends from the TmrraskQ-;:eport. This would form the basis for moving forward with a new permit application. The new permit application would replace the existing permit which is currently expiring and will be renewed for a year. We believe that these things need to be discussed and then make a decision on how to move forward with the new permit application. An e-mail is being passed out from Leo Ochs to John Petty that clearly expresses the / County's desire to pull together a group to develop a "go-forward" plan to insure that the Clam Bay eco system is maintained and perhaps further enhanced in the years ahead. This is what we want to try to accomplish. In this e-mail, attached hereto as Exhibit I, on pages I and 2, we have summarized in bullet points what we believe are the issues that need to be addressed from the Tomasko report. In no order of importance is the following: continued yearly monitoring of sea grass in the method recommended by Dr. Tomasko; water sampling; different, more effective monitoring locations and need to talk about where the locations are best for the entire community; a QA/AC focus for the water sampling; uniform testing for each sampling; publish test results for the entire community; a year!ywaterquality report for the entire Estuary; education program on nutrient runoff control; action phlns t';address 'lhewate;' quality issues of Seagate and Venetian Bay; permit to address sand bypassing, 2 V\ c-- ~ ?-~f ~V' r~ ~~~~~ ~. ,j Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 flood and ebb tide shoals and affect down drift beaches; what biological habitat uses Clam Bay and how do we make it the best it can be; how this permit will be administered, managed and by who; resolve the channel markings for boat access which is an open issue from the last permit.; and lastly, cut out the duplication of effort and funds some of which are the duplicate H&M Reports, the water quality activities, and the monitoring of the hard bottom. The intent today is to discuss these items and work toward a plan moving forward. We have tentatively identified a one year work period during which we can identify these items, work them as a group and come up with some solutions so that we can put this into the permit application. I know there a number of people that may not necessarily agree with all the items outlined and think they are superfluous. Our intent is not to criticize the work done by Pelican Bay. Pelican Bay has done an excellent job of managing these resources. We are not here to debate that, to criticize or take away anything from the effort that has been done from this point and time. I am now going to turn the meeting over to Dr. Tomasko to discuss why he believes we need to pay attention to the items I mentioned earlier and why this is a bigger issue than we all mayor may not recognize. After David's presentation, I will open the floor to discussion about approach, intent and the next steps. Concerns about the Water Quality and Aooroach to Date David Tomasko - This report was assisted by Collier County, Pamela Keyes; Collier County Laboratories did all the water analysis for the work that was done for what is called the optical model, which consist of what is it that affects water clarity; what nutrient is most important; and control of algae growth. Pollution loading models were done by one of PBS&J engineers. These are the contribution of other people. It was noted that Dr. Tomasko does not care how Clam Bay comes out; if it comes out to be severely degraded or pristine. I can't care as a scientist how things come out, that's political and what I am committed to is the science and what the science says. As a point of clarification, Gary McAlpin pointed out that when we talk about the Estuary we are talking from Seagate Dri ve to the north end. We considered the entire watershed because you can't look only at a portion of it and be successful. The culverts under Seagate Drive and how important the water connection is represents an overall management issue. If this is a tidal connection then waters to the south of Seagate Drive and the waters to the north of Seagate Drive have an ability to influence water quality in Clam Bay. Also, the landscape in parts of the watershed is very important to the integrated storm water best management practices. Pelican Bay has a very impressive storm water treatment system. There are other neighborhoods where 3 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 there is basically no storm water treatment. The entirety of the watershed can influence Clam Bay. If that watershed extends south of Seagate Drive, then this is part of the pollution loading model. In general this report came out somewhat in the middle of the view of some that Clam Bay was in total collapse. No one has necessary said that, but it seems that some people thought it was in really bad shape. There was no evidence of that but on the other hand it is not pristine. We are limited on how we can classify the health of the system. One thing we felt was important was the sea grass issue. We felt the sea grass issue kind of got blown up. You can't use an aerial photograph that has not been ground truthed. We are not quite sure you had an 80% decline in sea grass coverage. We went to other locations outside of Clam Bay and did not find sea grass to be a major feature. Sea grass is not always the best indicator of a healthy system. The methods used for monitoring sea grass acreage in the past, was inappropriate. Transects are very useful depending on how they are used. However, you can't create an acreage estimate from a transect station because it's not random. Likewise, you can't adequately estimate sea grasses from a photograph but instead, you need to get into the water. There is more sea grass in the system than previously indicated. What we concluded was that Clam Bay sea grass acreage was probably not the best indicator of the health of the system. What we found is that Pelican Bay has a storm water treatment system that is very impressive. We did not find any evidence of any short cutting or short cycling of the waterflow. But this does not necessary mean that there is no impact. It is just probably a very minimal impact. The area south of Seagate Drive did not have anything. The water quality in Clam Bay is a little bit tricky. If you go into the water quality data set, there are some things you need to be aware of. There are water quality standards in Florida that don't necessarily make sense, but they are there. One is dissolved oxygen. The dissolved oxygen standard in Florida is that the average can't be less than 5 and no values are to go below 4. There are plenty of places in Florida that do not meet these standards and it has nothing to do with pollution. Looking at the data we have from Pelican Bay, 20 years of data is a great data set to have. However, seven of those 20 years the average DO does not meet standards. Does this mean that it is grossly polluted? I don't know. But it does mean you have to explain it and you have to make the case of how much is natural and how much isn't. If that data gets into STORET (the states data management system) and it is uploaded by DEP, they are going to say you are impaired for DO and that is going to trigger the Total Maximum Daily Load (TMDL) program. If you don't have local control of the TMDL program, you could be left with stuff that is expensive and makes no sense at all. There are some quality assurance/quality control (QA/Qc) issues with some of the water quality data. The nitrate levels if higher than 0.8 which means nitrogen as a whole is going to be higherthat 0.8. The data set from station WI, which is in Clam Bay, had a nitrate reading of 70. This does not make sense as this is more than you would find in septic tanks or the runoff from a dairy. However, this data is out there for 6 months. This data set needs to be cleared up or you have something weird going on. 4 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 In our analysis and report, we felt very uncomfortable using this data set as it did not make any sense. You need to be careful with this data set. I don't feel this is a real number but it is there. My suggestion is to take local control of this. You don't have to have a TMDL program. Talk with DEP and get involved with the TMDL program and tell them your issues and concerns. Find out a way to do this or you can sit back and be a passive viewer and watch the state roll the TMDL program out and it could be scary. You can come up with your own water quality goals, own course of action, document the value of what you're doing and get approved by DEP and EPA. If you don't do this yourself you're at the mercy hoping that the state does good science. This does not always happen, they have to do the whole State of Florida and if they don't, someone will go to jail. It is a Federal requirement. TMDL are not something that you can opt out of. My view is local control is better than having it done by someone in Tallahassee or even worse in Washington De. Mike Bauer injected at this point that the City of Naples instituted some very strict water sampling program 2 Y, years ago. The City does the sampling and the QA/QC. They put this into STORET. As a result of this program, Naples Bay has been taken off the TMDL list for nutrients. It is very important to the local Government for us to do our own work and get this stuff into the state Data Management system. Gary McAlpin injected at this point that not everyone sitting in this room is going to agree that there is an issue or a problem. However, with the data we have collected over the years, if we are not proactive in managing our system, DEP could come in forcing solutions on us that will be very expensive. You may disagree with the "work group" approach or not, but the real issue is that there is a potential liability out there that's facing the county. Obviously it is facing Pelican Bay as well. This is the point that I wanted to make with Dave coming in here. This is an issue that was not addressed in the Tomasko's report. We do have issues with the water quality data, potentially the way the water quality data was taken and the QA/QC aspect of that information. There may be other issues but at a minimum we have some issues here that need to be cleared up. David Tomasko continued that just DO can trip you up all by itself. Most biologists would agree that productive systems in Southwest Florida do not always stay above 5.0. You have annual averages that are less than 4. This is going to trigger people wanting you to document why you think this is not a problem. We are going to have to have a better data center. You can say it doesn't happen very often but they don't care ifit doesn't happen very often - it happens. John Petty addressed the group by stating that when we speak to the issue of water quality, that data is taken as a requirement of South Water Management with the permit and its intent is to check the effectiveness of the water management systems. Treating this storm water runoff in Pelican Bay so that it emulates pre-construction conditions, the data supports that it is very effective in doing that. To highlight an area in 1990 that may have had a 6 month string of poor readings without checking with PBSD eludes to some problem that is not understood. We understand, that is when the County took over and it 5 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 went through different labs and it took them a while to figure it out. No attempt was made to correlate that study with the people that may have that information. So if you have questions, let's not put it out on the table that we don't have answers. John Petty continued that Pelican Bay is very interested in its storm water system. It has committed a great deal of money to that system. We would like to think that we are a shining example of coastal development taking that responsibility. We understand Collier County's concerns that they don't have such a system. To say that Pelican Bay may be leading our concern with the state on triggering these maximum contaminant levels, ( think we may have started off with the best, not the worst. Pelican Bay may have the best coastal situation. 1 think the county has a real issue and that is why they created the Coastal Advisory Committee and Coastal Zone Management. To say that it is a Pelican Bay issue at that point, I don't believe. To say that it's a County issue, I very much believe and 1 think everyone at this table that lives in Collier County understands the impact. To talk about this as just a Clam Bay issue is the first miss-step. Gary McAlpin interjected that the focus I want the meeting to take is that nobody is saying that Clam Bay has an issue. First off, no one is pointing a finger at Pelican Bay Services Division in saying there is an issue here. What we are saying is that we have a permit application that is going to go in for renewal. There appears to be some inconsistencies with the data. It's a larger issue, an estuary issue and those issues need to be discussed as a group and worked as a group. City of Naples contributes to those issues, Collier County contributes to those issues, and Pelican Bay mayor may not contribute to those issues, but if we don't address this estuary in it's entirety and it's whole we are not going to be where we want to at the end of the day. We are dealing with this one right now because the time for the permitting is here. It is not to say that Collier County doesn't have any other issues with any of the other estuaries that we have. We do, and we will address them. The way to solve a problem is to address them one at a time and that is what we are trying to do. Mike Bauer commented at this point; Let me also say to John, there is a water quality issue. We don't have all the data but it is likely coming from the south. You have a great system and if there is a water quality issue in outer Clam Bay I think it is highly likely it is coming from the south. John Petty asked, Dr. Tomasko, is there a problem with water quality? David Tomasko replied; I would say that it depends on what you compare it to. (fyou want me to answer yes or no, [will tell you that I cannot answer. [don't know what it was and what you want it to be. Does it not meet state standards? Yes, it does not meet state standards. Do the state standards make sense for Clam Bay? We don't have the data set to support that. I would say; it is easy to say that the DO standards are not met in Clam Bay 7 years out of20 years. So, is that a water quality problem, it is in the regulatory arena. John Petty asked; Are we out of compliance with any state mandate? 6 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 David Tomasko responded; with the state mandate, I don't believe you are. Councilman Sorey commented; The issue is and what we all need to be looking at is not the whole county. Look at this estuary and say OK and try to not get the state involved. As we have done in Naples Bay, let's put together a plan that conforms with not getting the state involved. Let's decide what our objectives are and not argue about weather the Pelican Bay system is doing a great job or not doing a great job. Let's look at this estuary and say OK if there were TMDL standards or no state standards, as stewards of this environment what do we want this estuary to be and look at including the parts that's in the city, the parts that are in the county. As far as I'm concerned we are all in the county. The City is in the county just like Pelican Bay and not let's not get hung up with defending the good job you guys are doing. I think we need to set up a TMDL locally controlled, locally developed and monitored program for this estuary. We need to do something in the south part of the bay to get up to your standards or whatever. Let's not get bogged down with who's doing what. Let's decide what do we want to do in this estuary and move forward. I think that is our objective. Gary McAlpin commented; I think that is the key. I think that we have data there that is suspect. Let's collect our own datasets, let's uniform the way we are doing it. Let's standardize it and do it as a total estuary so if the state ever comes to us, we can say, we don't or we do have a problem and this is what we are doing to address the issue. Councilman Sorey commented; let's not wait but go to the state and say here is our plan. We answer all the questions and make a proactive presentation instead of waiting. This is a Federal not a State issue. Let's look at the best way to solve our issues. Being good stewards of this estuary as you guys have been, lets build on what you have accomplished verses saying, well we've done great you guys have not. Let's be proactive. Gary McAlpin; I agree. Janice Larnen commented; does the renewing of this permit require that this data be uploaded? If so why was it not uploaded with the current permit? We need to be looking forward. Gary McAlpin commented; the plan that we are looking for is moving forward. It is a clean dataset of information moving forward that could support a position one way or another. There are a number of issues that need to be put on the table and addressed before the permit goes forward. We could tie this to the permit or to just being good stewards. The timing is now. It is not a requirement, currently of what we know. It could very well make this a regulatory issue for the permit if in fact the data that is there would trigger an investigation. I want to be proactive and get in front of it. Janice Larnen commented; I guess I'm trying to understand the data and it hadn't been required nor even requested prior to. Then we need to look forward going on. What is it today moving forward not on the dataset that might have had some issues. 7 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 Gary McAlpin commented; we are not trying to correct data we are trying to come up with a plan on how to collect the data, how to be uniform with it and start a data set that would give us the confidence moving forward. Water quality being one point of this, but there is a number of issues that need be addressed. John Petty commented; keep in perspective that we are talking from Pelican Bay perspective when we go to the board meetings. How do we tell them what we are doing here? I think we have determined that it is a policy decision of the County. This is not a regulation or because of anything Pelican Bay did incorrectly. It is a policy of the county and we are moving forward to increased awareness of our coastal areas. Gary McAlpin commented; absolutely, and the county's position is that if we do nothing we potentially could have a problem. We want to head off a problem before it comes there. To solve this problem it needs the entire community to get involved. John Petty commented; now you're saying two different things. Gary McAlpin commented; no I'm not. John Petty commented; let me clarify, the data we have today which shows the low DOs is public information and a lot of that information was taken by a division of Collier County. Gary McAlpin commented; 1 don't care how the data was taken, the data is out there. John Petty commented; you're saying there is a potential problem and this is public information. Now either the problem exists and we as good stewards should jump on it. If there is a contamination in Clam Bay the people of Pelican Bay want to be there. If there is a problem with anything in Clam Bay that we are causing or that we can mitigate they want to get involved. If there is a problem with DO, I have no problem with the state understanding that there is a problem in Clam Bay, because I look to them for guidance. 1 don't have a concern about it going to a state agency. What I do have a problem with is do we have a problem that we are addressing or is it a policy of the county that we are addressing. If we are going for a problem then we are going backward here. Gary McAlpin commented; John, I don't know if there is a problem. There mayor may not; because there is the data that is there and is suspect. The data that is there according to Tomasko from a QA/QC point of view is suspect. David Tomasko commented; to clarify one thing. The nitrate data is obviously an error. It couldn't be anything else. So there is already an issue right there. It should have been flagged, been removed, should have not shown up- but yet it does. So that is a QA/QC error. The other data probably suggest that you're going to be viewed as impaired should 8 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 anyone look at that. That doesn't mean that you are impaired. However, the data is there. Councilman Sorey commented; I think we need to stop dancing around and see if we can get this 1990 data set corrected. The state has more problems than they need to deal with. This issue here is how can we put together a model that will be proactive to move forward? Jim Burke commented; I am in agreement with this but I have heard some things today. This whole thing started because of the sea grass report, correct? Gary McAlpin commented; this whole issue came up because there was a comment that says that the county is being negligent in its monitoring of this permit in a number of ways; from a channel marking point of view; from a sea grass point of view; and from water quality point of view. We said; hey wait a minute you can't go to the state, DEP and the Corps without us getting involved. There was a big debate and the sea grass was the leading indicator at that point and time. We had Dr. Tomasko go in there and we found out that the sea grass was not necessarily the issue. As a spinoff of that there may be some other concerns and these were the other concerns being addressed, water quality being one of them. Councilman Sorey commented; the Feds in the clean water act of 1973 said every state will implement a program and then they never did anything about it. Dave Tomasko commented; what you had is the federal government decides they are going to enforce water quality standards. It has been very successful in a number of places. There is a 3030 list that shows that you are impaired for water quality standard. That 3030 list is dependent on water quality data getting to DEP. My understanding that is if state resources are used, that data is to go into STORET. It gets downloaded and DEP reviews. It doesn't always happen. Not having data doesn't mean that you are out of the loop. What it means is someone will collect that data. Jim Burke commented; Why now? Have we poked a sleeping bear? Gary McAlpin commented; absolutely. From the County's perspective once someone says there is a potential issue where the state could come in and mandate some things that could cost us significant amount of money. It could cost the total community. Councilman Sorey commented; we need to look at this estuary because eventually at some point in time there is going to be the state looking at this water body. All these water bodies are listed by the A cycle. John Petty commented; unfunded mandates have been challenged successfully in the past. Is there a reason we are reacting to an unfunded mandate? 9 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 Gary McAlpin commented; because it is the right thing to do from a water quality point of view. Our direction from a county perspective is to move forward just as it says in Leo's memo. John Petty commented; since according to South Florida this goes all the way up to Immokalee Road I'm part of the circle. Funded and unfunded is a big question for the residents of Pelican Bay. Gary McAlpin commented; what I would like to do is address these other issues that also need to be addressed in addition to a better water quality sampling that is published and we can have a confidence level in the data that meets the STORET format. With that water quality sampling we would identify with everyone in this room where the locations would be. Identify the technique that is used and also identify the QA/QC program for it. Other Concerns Councilman Sorey commented; I think the other thing we need to identify is the funding. Are Gary McAlpin commented; this is what I would suggest. There are a number of major activity areas water quality being one. After we agree what the groups are, we set up sub-committees. Funding is going to be addressed at an entirely different level. I suggest we assign a group of people to come back and say, this is what I think we can do. I think if we try to work all of these issues in this group it will not happen. Councilman Sorey commented; from the comments at council meetings, I think the City of Naples Council is committed to doing their part. Gary McAlpin commented; Councilman I see that there are a couple of ticket items here. Water quality sampling is one. Councilman Sorey commented; I think we need to decide the locations, the QA/QC system, the format, etc. The most important thing this group has to determine is; do we really want to put together a plan that will improve the water quality system and as a part of it, a management plan to preclude a TMDL trigger by the state. The sampling and everything else comes underneath that. Gary McAlpin commented; I don't think there is any question from a county perspective that we want to put a program in place that will preclude the state from coming in and telling us what we have to do. We need to get in front of these issues. I think there is a water quality issue with TMDLs and where we want to be. Other major issues are: . What quality issues are there with Seagate and Venetian Bay. Are they significant? What are they? What can we do to correct them? Are the two systems connected? The water quality coming from the south and its impact to the north? 10 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 2] , 2008 . Bypassing of sand, the ebb and flood tide shoals that does not necessarily affect the City of Naples as much but should be part of this management plan moving forward. Councilman Sorey commented; One of the things the City of Naples is doing city wide is a fertilize ordinance and a storm water plan. This will help the bays. We are doing something to help Jim Burke commented; that is a heavy affect on Pelican Bay. Gary McAlpin commented; I know it is a very difficult issue but I don't think your permit application that you have right now even addresses this and it has to address it. This is a permit application for the whole thing and has to address it. John Petty commented; It appears that we are negating any other position other than the agenda. I believe that the sandbar out in front of the pass is of concern of Pelican Bay. It is not a part of Pelican Bay Services Divisions area of responsibility other than the permit. But, the residents have told us that they are concerned about it because they have been told that it means benefit to their beach. So, if we ask questions about it, it comes from that regard. I don't know that we should negate conversation just because it isn't supportive of the agenda. We are asking questions. Councilman Sorey commented; we are only trying to list the major agenda items and we will come back and address that. This is just an agenda item not any negative pluses or minuses about it. Gary McAlpin commented; we are just trying to list the items that are of concern, issues that we need to address and discuss. John Petty commented; what I don't understand is Gary, when you state things like you haven't addressed it you've just glossed over it in your application and we must do it now. Those types of statements, ] have a hard time communicating back. Gary McAlpin commented; I think there is a discussion point for the sand bypassing that needs to be had. That needs to be on the table and the county needs it to be on the table. I'm not trying to discuss it right now. Tim Hall commented; we also need to add testing of the Gulf outside the pass. A solution needs to look at all the water passing through the system. Gary McAlpin commented; Sure, I don't have any problem with that. Tim Hall commented; the other issue is changing the stations, I think you need to be clear that 7 of the water monitoring stations done right now are not part of the Clam Bay restoration management permit. So we don't have to go back and modify that. II Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 Councilman Sorey commented; If we error on any side we error on having too many stations. Tim Hall commented; absolutely, the more data the better. Gary McAlpin commented; the next item we should put on the list is the sea grass monitoring. Since that has been a big issue with one community and I think there is still some sentiment that has still not been addressed. Just formalizing how, when, what we're doing and what the procedure is moving forward is an activity that I would like to see. John Petty commented; if we are going to add this item as discussion, let me add this. I was never a big fan of sea grass being our report card on whether there was a success or failure in Clam Bay. There are better ways to take care of estuaries. I understand the City of Naples is going to be participating in that program and I suggest that we look for their guidance in making this determination. Gary McAlpin commented; that's fine, if there is a better indicator that is out there lets just get that and deal with it. I don't think sea grass is as big of an issue and make sure we document it. Mike Bauer commented; I do. I want to go on record as saying "I do". Gary McAlpin commented; I think the next item is funding. Funding is an issue and how the interaction of this works with the City of Naples, Collier County, Pelican Bay and how all that is going to be put together. Councilman Sorey commented; one item that is very important is navigation which is very important to the City of Naples. This includes the marking and the whole bit. Gary McAlpin commented; I don't have any problems with that. Something I think Pelican Bay has done very will and I would like to see the County piggyback on is education for nutrient runoff control. Let me read the work issues again in no particular order: . Water quality, under that, what is the right sampling; what is the standard going to be; how are we going to display the information. . What is the connection between Seagate, Venetian Bay and the Gulf., what is the impact of mixing, . sand bypassing, . sea grasses/marine life, . funding, . navigation and . education. I have 7 bullet items. Comments and SUl!l!estions 12 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 Dave Tomasko commented; I think it may be appropriate for someone to come in and figure out what Clam Bay does. I bring that up because people sometimes think their Estuary is crystal blue water. Gary McAlpin commented; Just a minute Dave. Kyle is there any points that you would like to get on the table before you leave? Kyle Luckas commented; just about some of the report you refer to. The sea grass report was not done to see how much sea grass was there, it was to see how much impact the dredging had on it. (Not auditable). Dave Tomasko commented; when you manage Clam Bay, what are you managing it for? Sea grass is an important feature but not the only one. What does Clam Bay do right now as a habitat? So what you may have in Clam Bay is a habitat that is extremely valuable but in different ways than people would expect it to be. When the State of Florida looks at water bodies they look at water qualities. Clam Bay water quality needs to be appropriate to what Clam Bay needs to be. You have to collect that data to know that. If it doesn't have the nursery qualities that it used to have it could be due to physical alterations. If you focus only on water quality you lose perhaps a lot of ability to improve this place. You need to talk about all the things that make a place productive. Mike Bauer commented; I would second that. John Petty commented; when you talk about improving Clam Bay, I have a lot of residents that say don't try to improve it - maintain it. Gary McAlpin commented; I understand and I put that under marine life heading. Jim, do you have any comments or suggestions on the approach? Jim Burke commented; this all started as we know, and this is just my opinion as an anti Pelican Bay stewardship of Pelican Bay that brought Dr. Tomasko in. From a positive standpoint it has resulted in some pretty good things happening. If you read the paper you will know that Pelican Bay on a day to day basis is a volatile place. I would caution the group that we steer away from any wraps on Pelican Bay stewardship as we do have an opportunity to build on what we have accomplished. Gary McAlpin commented; I think that is the way the county wants to do it. I think it has been said and I want to reiterate it. The stewardship has been excellent and we have an opportunity to improve the stewardship by getting other people involved and that is what we want to do. Coleman Connell commented; you mentioned funding in a very broad way. What is this going to cost Pelican Bay? Are we going to have to pay for something that is miles away? Who is responsible for which portion? 13 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 Councilman Sorey commented; I think that is part of the work group that will have to determine what is fair for all the parties. I think all three of those entities will be in this funding. Gary McAlpin commented; I understand and there is going to have to be a funding equation that is fair and works for everyone. But, for the first time what we have heard is the City of Naples wants to be part of this and participate financially. We are at the very preliminary stages but this is the first time I've heard that there are other people that want to participate financially. We will work through that. Mike Bauer commented; I did want to add that there are several of us that have looked at the bottom of outer Clam Bay. It has not looked healthy to me. I found the water to be very murky. Looking at the bottom of that Bay I was not impressed. Tom Cravens commented; In 1972 Westinghouse acquired the land where Pelican Bay is located. In ] 973 congress enacted a number of acts. Pelican Bay realized they were not going to be able to develop a gulffront condominium complex like what is south. They contacted the Conservancy of SW Florida and had them help develop a plan for Pelican Bay. I think it might be a good idea if the Conservancy came in and gave us some guidance and advice. I also think Florida Gulf Coast University has individuals that are involved in the marine environment. These are valuable resources. John Petty commented; Let me talk about the groups that are here and the stakeholders that are here at the table City of Naples, Collier County, Pelican Bay and the general public at large. These entities have different responsibilities and concerns. Pelican Bay Service Division has a concern toward the Clam Bay system which resides in Pelican Bay became county property, through Pelican Bay, which is in our boarder and which is currently under a permit that Pelican Bay has stewardship of. Our concern is water management related and mangrove related. That is what our public has asked us to take care of. As an MSTU, even though we are a division of the county, we must be respectful of what they ask us to do. They may ask us to do more ifthere is an educational process out there that convinces them that it's important. The City of Naples has an interest in regards to Venetian and Moorings and the water quality there does not have any treatment facilities such as Pelican Bay. The questions come up on what can we do in the Clam Bay system to help in that regard? There is the county. who has some concerns over the states TDML that might be implemented and what enforcement there may be and what they may be asked to do in an unfunded mandated at this current time. This is three different issues and I look forward to working with you on these issues. Janice Larnen commented; it might be helpful as the conversations evolve to understand the basis of whether or not it is a requirement, regulation verses a policy issue. How is this going to touch my pocketbook? I'm getting confused in my mind relative to what we are talking about as relative to the current permit or are we expanding the permit that is there in place? Is it going to be touching another permit that is going to trigger something else? 14 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 David Roellig commented; I have different concern. We have had permits for years and chasing them down for years. I am disturbed somewhat by the length oftime this is taken. A better strategy in my opinion would have been to submit the application a year ago and see what the state has to say. Trying to anticipate what the regulators are going to want is impossible. Marcia Cravens commented; my perspective is that I would hope that in addition to the discussion about the monitoring of our water system that we might also include some of the tools and ways in which to improve the water quality at the same time. I have to applaud Mike Bauer and the City of Naples which have been so committed to actually taking the steps to improving the water quality. I would hope that the entire Collier County area would bring these areas into discussion and hopefully adopt BMP. Doug Finley commented; I am in Clam Bay a lot. I do share some of the same concerns Mike has in outer Clam Bay. Is any of our testing going to be sediment testing? Name not auditable commented; there are all different agendas here and [ think if you can try to put it all aside for a minute and think about what can be done to ensure a productive estuary. Martha Dykman commented; our community (Seagate) has seen all the oysters disappear over the years. We are the ones that went to the meeting regarding Clam Bay and we asked why they were not testing on the south end that is how we started out the dialog. We were told; no they were not going to do testing on the south end. So, we came to Pelican Bay Services meeting and said we were really concerned and we were told to shut up get out of there we were not in Pelican Bay and we had no reason to come to their meeting and tell them something like that. We should be involved in this and we should have a voice in this. Action Plans for the Next Meetinl! Gary McAlpin commented; what I would suggest we do at this time is to identify a couple of issues that I think are more important than others. We need to have discussion about funding so we can sustain this and I think Councilman this is one we need to tackle right away. The 2nd piece that came up at the CAC is that we are in violation of the existing permit as the channel markings. This has been an existing issue with the City of Naples and the Seagate people and the county is in violation. I think that is something relatively easy to get resolved. The existing canoe markers are also in violation because they have not been permitted. They have to come down and so we have to move forward with marking the channel. The first step on that is to identify the locations and go with the permitting required. As I understand it has to be permitted from the Corps, Coast Guard, DEP and Fish and Wildlife. What I think we can do is come up very quickly and easily with the locations for the channel markers. We can review them at the next meeting if that is acceptable to everyone from a permitting point of view. 15 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 John Petty commented; is this the Clam Bay permit that Pelican Bay Services is currently invoking or is the permit the county had for the bridge? Gary McAlpin commented; it is not the bridge permit. John Petty commented; then I have to ask is this not a Pelican Bay Service Division issue? Because we certainly have not sat down as a board that we are giving up a responsibility or that the county was going to be taking on the responsibility. I assume CAC or Coastal Zone Manager is saying that you will implement corrective action on a permit that is the stewardship of Pelican Bay Services Division. The issue that I need to talk to my board about is that the permit has already transferred and that it is no longer a Pelican Bay Services Divisions concern and that we would just be on the Clam Bay Committee. Gary McAlpin commented; John, I think that it is a part of the existing permit that is there right now. What I suggest is that we talk together on how we make that happen. When we say permit, let's also recognize that this is a permit issued to Collier County- Pelican Bay Services Division. Collier County has a stake in this and would want to be involve and will work through the details with you. Jim Burke commented; who actually goes out and moves these? Gary McAlpin commented; at this time what we would do is from a permitting point of view there are a number of ways we can get this done. It might be a number of contractors that we have do it. John Petty commented; we have a contractor that handles our permit and we have staff as well. Again we need to tell Pelican Bay that this has changed. I think that after its good stewardship of 10 years we certainly deserve to put before them that there is going to be a transfer of the stewardship of the permit to Collier County and it becomes a county issue and may involve Pelican Bay and the City of Naples and other stakeholders in the future. Gary McAlpin commented; I'm not advocating that there is a responsibility shift here. What I am advocating is that there is a need to get this done and there needs to be some discussion on how it gets done. John Petty commented; you and I can discuss that and then bring it to the committee. But you can't make statements to the City of Naples that we are going to do that because it has not gone before the committee. That's my position and I have to protect them. Gary McAlpin commented; John, Let me just say this that if the county is in violation of a permit requirement, we are not going to be in violation of a permit requirement. I think if Pelican Bay Services Division does not believe that it is their responsibility then the county will deal with it. I don't want to say it in a negative way but the county will not be in violation of its permits. 16 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 John Petty commented; I don't know what gave you the impression that says we do not feel responsibility. We feel a very heavy responsibility for the bay system and I don't want to leave that out on the table that we had ever said we don't feel responsible. The issue here is there is a change in responsibility. Has the county made a change? If the answer is yes, then Gary I am fine. I just think we need to go before the board and let them know. Gary McAlpin commented; Lets decide how this gets accomplished. Let's set down and talk about it. Councilman Sorey commented; Gary I think this memo and the indication that the county wants to be the next permit holder on the next permit clearly indicates there is a shift in responsibility and authority. I think that is pretty well on the table. Gary McAlpin commented; this is what I don't want to do Councilman Sorey. I don't want to get hung up on who is responsible at this point and time. I don't want to create barriers. What I want to do is to identify that there are some needs out there. There are a lot of ways to get these needs accomplished. I don't want to send a message to Pelican Bay Services that's not right. I think we as a County see some issues and there are a lot of ways to do it together to make this thing happen. We are trying to explore ways to make this happen. The County knows there are some obligations and responsibilities that it has and we are trying to move forward with them. What I am saying at this point in time, there is no line drawn in the sand saying that we are going to pick up responsibility for this issue. We're going to work together as a group to resolve some of these things. Councilman Sorey commented; I think that is fine. I think the last thing we need to do is not to coordinate with all the stakeholders. Talk about the bullet points that we have mentioned, maybe get some indication from the various groups as to how they would like to participate and I think we need to set another meeting of this entire group. Hopefully at that time we will be able to work out some of the issues John brought out. Maybe at that time we can assign sub-committee responsibilities and those sub-committees reporting back to this committee. Gary McAlpin commented; is that ok with you work group members? Response was yes. Gary McAlpin commented; we will talk together and get other people involved with this. Next Meetinl! Next tentative meeting will be the 28th of March at 9:00am at CZM. Note: the meetinl! date was chanl!ed to March 20th at 9 am at CZM . Comments out the Door 17 Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Meeting February 21, 2008 Jim Burke commented; who determines that the markers are in violation? Gary McAlpin commented; they were never permitted through the state. Fish and Wildlife is telling us that they are in violation and they need to be pulled out. Tim Hall Commented; they have a permit number on them. Gary McAlpin commented; they were never filed. We have to deal with that right away. We will have to find out about that. Adjourned 10:50 am 18 \ \~ ~f' ,~ \\1 "'\, C1;(6, o L~gliiary ,,-, ;, ?rom: Sent: To: Cc: Subject: E >:.lh IJ (T -Ifl ochs I Tuesday, January 08, 2008 1 :26 PM pettyj@districtoffices.com ramsey_m; McAlpinGary FW: Clam Bay Permit Follow-up \-<) Follow Up Flag: Due By: Flag Status: Follow up Monday, January 14, 2008 12:00 AM Flagged Good Afternoon John, I wanted to close the loop with you relative to our recent meeting on Outer Clam Bay and the Clam Pass permit. Jim Mudd and I have discussed this and would like to take the following approach: . All permits and permit applications will be in Collier County's name. This is county policy and we need to follow the county policy. Please start work on extending the existing permit for a period of one year as soon as possible. I understand that it should be fairly easy to obtain and will only require a written request from us. I would ask that you prepare a draft letter from the County Manager to the appropriate permitting authority to secure this extension. Additionally, I understand from Gary McAlpin that new permit requests for the estuary maintenance and management will be issued from Ft. Myers and that pass and beach work will be issued out of Tallahassee. . We will also set up a work group to address the items presented in the Tomasko report. I am instructing Gary McAlpin to work with you and other stakehoiders to make this happen. The purpose of this work group will be to develop a "go.. forward" plan to insure that the Clam Bay ecosystem be maintained or perhaps even further enhanced in the years ahead. My intention would be for this group to provide information and suggestions to elected and appointed officials that will guide their decisions regarding potential governance, funding, resource allocations and other policy considerations. in this regard, I have considered your recommendation to address these issues under the auspices of a newly created water authority, a quasi-governmental taxing authority established in Florida statutes. In my assessment, this approach may be premature and I would respectfUlly suggest that this decision would be considered along with others by the policy makers after reviewing the information and recommendations offered by the work group. My time frame is to resolve this over the next year. Therefore, I have instructed Gary to proceed in earnest to move this effort forward. Please give me your thoughts on this approach at your earliest convenience. John, I want to again commend you and the entire PBSD for the outstanding stewardship and advocacy provided on behalf of the Pelican Bay community. I look forward to a continued productive and collaborative partnership to our mutual benefit. Regards, Leo The sea grass study was in large measure very exonerating for Pelican Bayl There are several items that need to be addressed in their permit application that I will be working over the next two weeks with Jim Burke of Pelican Bay for presentation to the CAC. The CAC has elected to present their recommendations to the TDC and BCC on this permit application. It will be discussed with you and Leo first as I have been working with him. The items that I believe need to be addressed/resolved in this permit application are: . Continued yearly monitoring of sea grass in the method recommended by Dr. Tomasko. . Water quality sampling with: · Different, more effective locations 1 . ---~......"--,-,.,~,-_. ..jI ~ .- j . / . . A QAlQC review and central focus Uniform testing for each sample Publish test results on a website for entire community viewing . A yearly water quality report for Clam Bay Estuary . Education program on nutrient runoff control . Action plans to address the water quality issues of Seagate and Venetian Bay (No BMP exist here) . Permit to address sand bypassing, flood and ebb tide shoals and affect on down drift beaches. . Hard measurement criteria vs. vague statements . What biological habitat uses Clam Bay and how do we make it the best it can be (Graduate research program from FGCU?) . How this permit will be administered, managed and by who . Resolve the channel marking for boat access which is an open issue from the last permit Gary 2 \" . @ 4.0 Conclusions and Action Plan Based on information on seagrass coverage. water quality, and pollutant loading models for Clam Bay, the following conclusions can be reached: . There have been dramatic changes in the characteristics of the watershed of Clam Bay. . These changes have resulted in substantial increases (68 %) in the quantity oftreshwater delivered to Clam Bay, due to increases in the impervious nature of the landscape. . Accompanying the increased freshwater delivery to Clam Bay, system-wide loads of nitrogen, phosphorus and suspended solids have increase by approximately 108,416, and 525 percent. respectively. . Despite the modeled increases in freshwater inflow, current and historical water quality data indicate that Clam Bay is a high salinity environment, with mean salinities> 30 psu. . These high salinities suggest that Clam Bay is highly influenced by the Gulf of Mexico, and that pass dredging activities might playa role in maintaining high salinities. . Of 30 sites visited for detailed examinations in Clam Bay, seagrass was encountered at ] 3 of those sites, for rate of OCcurrence of 43 percent. . The vast majority of seagrass encountered (12 of 13 sites) was Ha/ophila decipiens. . Ha/ophila decipiens is a species of seagrass that does best under low light conditions, and it actually can be phYSiOlogically damaged by high light levels. . In nearby "reference" sites, seagrass coverage was not t'lUnd to be a major bottom feature. . A closer examination of Clam Bay photography from 1952. and seagrass maps from Naples Bay based on 1953 photography support the conclusion that seagrasses are not likely to have dominated shallow embayments in Collier County 50 years ago. It is more likely than not that the 1992 Collier County Seagrass Protection Plan's conclusion that seagrass covered 60+ acres of Clam Bay was erroneous. . Also, transect-based estimates of seagrass coverage are likely erroneous. . A more appropriate technique for monitoring seagrass coverage in Clam Bay would be to Use a randomized sampling technique, with percent coverage by species used to monitor health of seagrass resources in Clam Bay. Based on water quality collected for this effort, levels of nutrients and chlorophyll_a (an indicator of algal biomass) are typically below the median value for Florida estuaries. DOC' -OJj, 36 Clam Bay Seagrass Assessment DRAFT October 2007 -'~--"---- -------. Conclusions and Action Plan · Water clarity in Clam Bay is mostly controlled by levels of turbidity in the bay, rather than phytoplankton levels or the amount of dissolved organic matter. . A significant amount of this turbidity appears to be associated with inorganic (non-volatile) suspended solids, indicating the natural marl sediments and beach sediments can have significant impacts on water clarity in the bay. . Although nitrogen availability appears to influence levels of phytoplankton in the bay, phosphorus appears to be more important in controlling algal biomass. . Analysis of long-term data sets (198 I to 1998) suggest that salinities decreased over that time period, with concurrent increases in levels of nitrogen and phosphorus. /Combined, these results lead to the conclusion that Clam Bay does not appear to be a seriously \distressed system. However. comprehensive approaches are needed to appropriately characterize and protect Clam Bay by maximizing both its potential and actualized roles as an important natural resource. That is, Clam Bay could be an important havitat for feeding and shelter for juvenile stages of recreationally and commercially important species of finfish and shellfish, and these functions arc not necessarily linked simply to seagrass coverage. Seagrass coverage does not appear to be significantly different than would be expected based on surveys of nearby cmbayments with less human influence. This would suggest that the 1992 Collier County Seagrass Protection Report was probably in error when it concluded that seagrasses covered 60+ acres of Clam Bay. which may be due to inadequate groundtruthing and delineation efforts for this original assessment. The seagrass Halophila decipiells was found at 12 of 25 randomly chosen sampling points in that part of Clam Bay south of the boardwalk. Such a pattern of abundance is not consistent with cither of the two opposite conclusions that I) seagrasses are almost absent from the bay, or 2) seagrasses are a dominant feature of the bay. Aerial photography is not an appropriate technique for developing coverage estimates for seagrass abundance in Clam Bay. for two main reasons. First, the most common species, H. decipiells. is a rather diminutive organism that is unlikely to be a discemabIe feature with aerial photography and subsequent photointerpretation - resulting in "false negatives" for abundance. Second, macroalgae. which can bc abundant in Clam Bay, can give a "false positive" for photointerpretation. suggesting scagrass coverage when there is none to be found. Also, transect-bascd monitoring is an inadequate techniquc for determining seagrass abundance. as transects are typically not placed in a random fashion (a requirement for coverage estimates) and the spatial distribution of seagrass coverage thus cannot be derived horn this technique. Water clarity in Clam Bay appears to be most strongly influenced by the amount of turbidity in the water, rather than levels of phytoplankton and dissolved organic matter. This conclusion could have perhaps been modificd if more significant rain events had occurred during Our sampling time period. However, an analysis of a 17 year period of record for a water quality station located in southeastern Clam Bay indicates that Clam Bay is a high salinity environment. with long-term average salinity values in excess of 30 ppt. This analysis also suggested that PBSJ ." 37 Clam Bay Seagrass Assessment DRAFT October 2007 ..__.._-~_.,-,".._,-------,~-".,._,.- Conclusions and Action Plan salinities were trending toward lower values, at least at this site during the period of 1981 to 1998. l[Levels of nutrients in Clam Bay are typicaJly below the median value for Florida estuaries, but trend analysis over the 1981 to 1998 time period Suggests that values may be increasing. Increased loads of nitrogen. phosphorus and total suspended solids, if they are continuing to OCcur. could be associated with increased levels of phytoplankton and/or macroalgae, which would likely result in both decreased aesthetic and ecological conditions. Phosphorus appears to be more likely to Contribute to algal growth, as opposed to nitrogen. A significant quantity of nitrogen, phosphorus and suspended solids appear to be coming from areas south of Seagate Drive, as some of these subbasins have highly urbanized landscapes with little evidence of storm water BMPs. Actions that would increase the influence of these areas on water Quality in Clam Bay should b;;~ppropriately considered forjheir-potentiaiunintefldecr- "co1!se'luenc"es. Within the more immediate watersnedorCfam "Bay, liie sToiiriwatertreaTment BMPs in place for the Pelican Bay subbasin appear to result in significant reductions in loads of nitrogen, phosphorus and sUspended solids. While the Pelican Bay subbasin does indeed load the majority of nutrients and solids into Clam Bay, compared to other adjacent subbasins, its pollutant load per unit area (i.e., pounds per acre) is lower than other urbanized subbasins, due mostly to the extensive storm water BMP system in place. In areas both with and without extensive storm water treatment BMPs, a key strategy to reduce pollutant loads is "PoJlution Control through volume control". Years of research on stormwater treatment technology has led to the conclusion that there aren't any "silver buJlets" for a technological fix for storm water pollution in highly urbanized watersheds. Instead, awatershed" wide approach to allow storm water runoff to soak into the landscape, rather having it be ralited' ~'--'--'n__, '", .. . off the nearest creek or bay, is a much more effective strategy to minimize the impacts of urban developmenl.----''- ",,-_ Within this context, the following activities should be considered, as an appropriate approach to protect the existing water quality and natural resources of Clam Bay. I. Development of a County-sponsored random station location water quality monitoring program for Clam Bay with 3 10 5 stations visited monthly. Water quality parameters would include basic physical parameters (i.e., temperature, salinity, pH, dissolved oxygen. Secchi disk depth) as well as basic biological parameters (nitrogen species, phosphorus species. chlorophyll_a, turbidity. color). Such data collection efforts need to have an appropriate QA/QC procedure in place, as well as the required data uploads into STORET. Additionally. opportunities for getting the information out to the public via the internet should be explored. 2. Development of a random station location seagrass and macroaIgal abundance monitoring program for Clam Bay with 30 stations visited twice per year, Spring and Fall. for tracking patterns in abundance and species diversity of seagrasses and macroalgae. PBSf }J 38 Clam Bay Seagrass Assessment DRAFT OctOber 2007 --"--- -'"'-....,.---..- '_.~--- Conclusions and Action Plan -,.. C"""",,,, m""'''"''e mod 000"","'", of d", "o'mw"", BMp ""em fo, 1<1;,"" B., to ensure its COntinuing performance. 3. f""'''"""f" "mP""eo"", "~"'''"' of """0" ,"mm"w~ ""d f"""", "''''~''O" of r,~ B.,. ,,, ""ow f", '"",,,." m''''.ge_" "f C'~ "",', e.,,,,.,. ""' """'" f 0,"", ,.",,, f" "'''om. r"., "'" Id "<J ode g,,' "mp,,, ""' ,'""".,'~""" of ''''0'' "moo",,,,,. " wdl.., '~"O"""'."",;'d ""'.'me" of ",' 'omm",,,,,. w'O . foc" on juvenile stages. /-_._-\ / Y Co", Id,,,, '0" 0' om """,,, ~"" of P"W" boo" '" "'.,ow "'rt'o", of c,~ B.,. '0 .~ redUce the Potential for prop scars and resuspension of bottom sediments. >::~ - 6. "''''OPm,,, of. P"'Iie ,,,",,,,"" pm"'m '" ''''ro"" .."""", of _ ~"""" "" "" " '0'" '" mh"m'" '''''''Id,,,, 'mp"" 0" "o""w",.. ''''''''",. Smh ~"'''e, =Id include: ...., ---~ '-~ 9qi ~-' Y-~ --? ,. ---..'''.~'_..._-_..._~"_."".o._, c.....(, . Directing rain gutters to discharge to grassed area, not pavement. . Proper maintenance of grassed sWales as stormwater conveyance systems. . p",,,,,,., "" "f ..di"h hi",,,,, w"h," "",".",,,", '0 mod""e ,,_ w"'.. Conveyance for low intensity rain events. . Ed",""", 0, "ohl;, "" i"",, 0' P_ "',""'", 0' g"., d'"","" '" prope, fertilization of lawns and landscaping. . lid ""I;" g ., p"hl;, 0" 0, ,,'"' of 'd""," g """'P'" g ''''''Of """Od. En,,,,,, y Landscapes" into their home and commercial landscaping plans. 7. C""f", '0""'..""", of oJ, "'pe", of '",~a""g no.. '"'" C"m B., from o'h.",,,, areas south of Seagate Drive. Whfl, C"m B" 'y P''''',,, "Of "' 'mp..", .. 'om, m'gh' 0"",. " .~o'ld "m he 'o",ide"" '0 "" ..pn ,f( "e" ."e 'ro m"'d""., po,," '""", grow" "" h.. ="rmd '" Coli 'ec Co'm, """ 0, ,,"" f 'w d..",,, h" m"',. " 00"" '''""fb" '" '0""'.'0" 0"" "ro" gh .."'" 'M "'''''' 00"""",,,, "" 00",.,,, '''"'. """ w,,, =mm", ~,~ "" '''e. '" m'", m'" """" '""' ''''''"' 'mp."... '"' C"m B. y "" pm"""" from fm"re '"" '''',m",,", 'e"",""", P8S! 39 Clam Bay Seagrass Assessment DRAFT OctOber 2007 ---"-~"_.'-'---- March 20. 2008 1. Call to Order/ Roll Call Mr, McAlpin. Coastal Zone Management Director. called the meeting to order at 9:04 A.M. 2, Approval of Minutes of 2/21/2008 Mr, Burke moved to approve the minutes of the February 21, 2008 meeting, Second by Mr, Bauer, Carried unanimously 6-0, Mr, McAlpin noted that the minutes were as "close to verbatim" as possible, but from the March 20, 2008 meeting forward. the minutes will be summary minutes with a video of the meeting available via Collier County. 3, Public Comments - 3 minutes per Speaker Mr, McAlpin noted the Pelican Bay Services Division effort and stewardship with relation to the existing permit Clam Bay permit, has been outstanding. Further, he noted that there is possible public perception that the Discussion Group is not concerned with the status of the mangroves. There have only been a few comments regarding the mangroves as the Discussion Group recognizes that the efforts in preserving the mangroves has been outstanding. The mangroves, as well as other items need be addressed as the Discussion Group moves forward. Also, the Coastal Zone Management office does not "speak for the Board of County Commissioners." In addition this is a publicly advertised meeting with members present that sit on a variety of County Advisory Boards. Dr, Bauer stated that Pelican Bay Services Division has done an outstanding job of enhancing and preserving the water quality of the Estuary as well as the restoration of the mangroves. The task now is to incorporate some larger issues into the preservation of the Estuary. SPEAKERS: John Domenie, Pelican Bay Services Division noted he appreciated the comments expressed by Dr. Michael Bauer and Gary McAlpin, but is still concerned the mangroves are taking "second place" herein. Further, he has prepared and submitted reports on a yearly basis to various Agencies and has not received any complaints regarding the Stewardship of Pelican Bay Services Division. He is concerned that the permit which covers mangrove restoration and maintenance is evolving into a County wide responsibility. They are seeking renewal of the permit to protect the mangroves, not for renewing the permit for activities that have taken place in Naples Bay, Venetian Bay, Vanderbilt Lagoon, etc. He requested clarification on the definition of the term "Clam Bay". The Pelican Bay Service Division considers "Clam Bay" as Upper Clam Bay, Inner Clam Bay and Outer Clam Bay. Others define it as going "all 2 March 20, 2008 the way south" to include other bays such as Moorings Bay, Venetian Bay, etc. He noted the "Seagrass Study" was completed for Outer Clam Bay. Kathy Worley, Conservancy of Southwest Florida, requested consideration for her name to be added to the list of teams for "Water Quality and Sampling" and "Marine Life and Seagrass Monitoring". Mr, Connell stated that the Management efJimfor Clam Bay should still rest with the Pelican Bay Services Division and any decisions or recommendations should recognize this. Doug Findlay noted that he has never taken the approach that this Discussion Group is "slighting the mangroves." The other items under consideration are in addition to the mangroves. The waters are State owned and the uplands are County owned, they are not possessive of one neighborhood, but belong to all taxpayers. Clam Bay should be looked at holistically, broadening the horizon to look at other neighborhoods that have an impact on the Estuary. He approves the approach of the Group. Tom Cravens, President, Mangrove Action Group noted the group is primarily a group of Pelican Bay residents that led to the 10 year restoration plan. This plan has been very successful. He requests local control over the plan, but does recognize there are other issues over a larger scale and recommends these items be addressed in a separate permit. He recommends renewing the existing permit and continue the existing work that is being conducted within the confines of the permit. Marsha Cravens, Mangrove Action Group, Pelican Bay Resident noted any actions should be taken necessary to improve waters in the entire coastal zone; however this is a separate issue from the Stewardship of the mangroves. She requested clarification on 3 points: I. Is it the Board of County Commissioners plan to take over the maintenance of the I O-year permit that is up for renewal and convert it to a permit to solve problems ongoing in the Clam Bay and the connecting Estuary system? Commissioner Tom Henning, Chairman of the Board ofCoanty Commissioners stated that he is not aware of any item on the Board of County Commissioner's agenda to take over the maintenance of the permit. 2. Does the Board of County Commissioners want to replace the Pelican Bay Public Services Division as the signatory applicant and requester of the permit? Commissioner Henning noted he has not been in attendance in any meeting where the Board of County Comml:5sioners proposes taking over the services provided by Pelican Bay. 3. Would Commissioner Henning vote his approval for renewal of the Pelican Bay 10 year permit for the mangrove conservation area as it exists. 3 March 20, 2008 Commissioner Henning stated he is not familiar with all the issues. but does believe local control is better than government control. He noted if the permit application requires the Board of County Commissioners to "sign off" to then (not sure on this) Petition the Board to sign off on any requests by contacting Commissioner Halas to have it placed on an Agenda. He requested clarification on who is considered the "County" in these discussions. Mr. McAlpin stated that the "County" is the Board of County 'j (~. . Commissioners. "Commissioner Henning stated he considers the "County" the citizens of Collier County and the Board of County Commissioners as their servants and the citizens have every right to Petition the Board to take actions. He encouraged interested parties to come to the Board of County Commissioners meeting to relay the issues herein. Bob Naegele, Pelican Bay Foundation welcomed Commissioner Tom Henning's comments noting the Foundation interest lie with Commercial property owners as well as residential property owners and this group has provided funding for the mangrove restoration in the Estuary. Ted Raia, Pelican Bay resident noted the lands belong to the County and the State, however the residents of Pelican Bay have devoted considerable time and money to the protection of the Estuary and will continue to do so. They are fully willing to coordinate with the County on the new permit. but this should not affect renewal of the existing permit. Mr. McAlpin responded and made note that the renewal is a I-year renewal of the existing permit. Any new items which are identified may be placed in the new permit application If necessary. Jim Happensteadt, Pelican Bay Foundation requested clarification on what deficiencies have held up the forwarding of permit application for a renewal that was prepared by Tim Hall of Turrell and Assoc. and the Board of County Commissioners. Mr, McAlpin noted that some of the issues raised over the last 6 months may need to be included in the requestfor the renewal of a permit and may need to be separated which is the purpose of the DL~cussion Group. Hefurther noted some of the issues identified now were not identified 10 years ago. He noted that the existing permit encompasses the beginning of the Pelican Bay Vanderbilt Beach Road on the north end and to the north side of the Seagate area on the South end He noted that there is a zone of influence Ji'om other sources now identified such as Venetian Bay. etc. These are the sources and issues they are attempting to address. He noted the Discussion Group will review all issues and determine the format of how the application or applications will be prepared and submitted 4 March 20, 2008 David Buser, President Seagate Homeowners Association, noted he supports the Discussion Group. He recognizes that it is County Policy that the Coastal Advisory Committee implements the Management Plan for the inlet itself and assumes any permit going forward will clarify that the Coastal Advisory Committee will implement the inlet management strategy. It would be a County held permit with County name. He praised the job done by the Pelican Bay Services Division within the system of mangrove restoration; however he is concerned with the water quality in Seagate which may be affected by current management practices. He is further concerned with the lack of navigational markers in the channel (as required in the permit) and noted that the Board of County Commissioners is currently liable. The permit has been in violation of this requirement since its inception. He feels the Pelican Bay residents have been given misinformation regarding issues associated with the permit via the "Pelican Bay Post." Mr, Sorey noted the ecological approach needs to be a holistic approach of water quality. Seagrass habitat. mangrove restoration and other issues identified and the permit or permits should be addressed in this manner. Marsha Cravens noted a concern that specific language in the new permit will not address the mangroves conservation and restoration. Mr, McAlpin noted that the mangrove issues will be addressed by the Discussion Group. 4, Discussion of Proposed Work Topics, Tasks and Teams /,/ Mr, McAlpin circulated a document entitled "Clam Bay Discussion Group- Preliminary work topics. tasks and approach jar discussion at the 3/20/2008 work team meeting" for review by the participants. -.----- - - -- -- The document identifies various topics to be reviewed, identifying a "Work Team" to address those topics and report back to the Discussion Group with applicable information and recommendations. The Discussion Group addressed the issues assigning team leaders and finalizing the members of the various teams. It was noted that any individual can attend these meetings. 1. Water Oualitv and Samolinl! Pamela Keys was selected as the team leader. Kathy Worley of the Conservancy of Southwest Florida was added to the team Ted Raia noted that the Pelican Bay Services Division Clam Bay Subcommittee has agreed to move the permit ahead with 2 riders; I) fixing all the signage and 2) cooperating with any Agencies that requested sampling of water for testing. Mr, McAlpin accepted this offer and noted that the team will be responsible for identifying the water sampling locations and parameters 5 @ March 20, 2008 2, BMP's for Seal!ate and Venetian Bav Dr, Michael Bauer was selected as the team leader. It was noted that the Naples Grande Parking lot stormwater runoff should be studied. 3, Mixinl! Analvsis in Outer Clam Bav to study the effects between Seal!ateNenetian Bav: Clam Pass and the PBSD Stormwater runoff Mr, Tomasko was selected as the team leader. Doug Finlay was also a possible consideration for the team. /..,----- // Tim Hall of Turrell and Associates noted there is aflushing model ( completed that may assist this analysis. . -- - 4, Sand Bvpassinl! at Clam Pass Ebb Tide Shoal and Permit Generation Mr, Burke was selected as the team leader. Ken Humiston of Humiston and Moore noted there is data available through various reports that may assist the team working on this item. 5, Navil!ation Mr, McAlpin was selected as the team leader. David Buser was added to the team. Ted Raia requested David Buser provide his concerns in writing to him regarding the navigation issues and he will ensure they are addressed. It was noted that Gary McAlpin should be copied with any correspondence. John Domenie, Pelican Bay Services Division noted the issue of the channel markings was raised a couple o.fyears ago and that Gary McAlpin requested the channel marking be delayed until a study by David Tomasko was completed. , "r I I '- ------- ""------------- 6, Marine Life includinl! Seal!rass Monitorinl! Tim Hall was selected as the team leader. Kathy Worley was added to this team. It was noted that the team will define the limits of the areas to be monitored. ! (. "rJ,/; rue 7, Educational Outreach includinl! County Fertilizer Ordinance -{I' Ie- L:C/ I ~,)k( Modifications ,:;\ I I. JJ (I JI ~ " I \;;'U l' \'J'J v Mr, Burke noted that the Pelican Bay Services Division has agreed to work with the Coastal Zone Management stqfJto bring the markers into C9!!1pliance with the 5 phases of the permit. II was noted the first step of this team is to determine "what the requirement isfor the channel markers. " .~ - It was noted that the Coastal Advisory Committee has provided direction in this matter as well. j!: 6 Mr, Sorey noted that possible consideration is being given to a new taxing district for the Moorings and Seagate communities. .Jt_~as no_ted_t.h~_e_!Icht(:al11 sho_uld determine any costs associated with the items covered within their teall)._ Adiscl.lssion-e-Il-suedregarding water quality standards and the monitoring associated with them. Mr, Tomasko noted that local management of water quality standards is important, and standards such as State standards are somewhat generic or a "default standard" and cannot address requirements that may need to be "Iocalized" for a specific area. David Buser requested information regarding the exact taxing and spending parameters for the Pelican Bay Services Division Water Management Budget be provided to the team. This will assist in identifying funding parameters . " 'j)! L' / '."'. I: ,I ! -' l v . <1 ". ) I.()L- "v.L' ....4./ C ., \!lVJ' ,'" iJ 11' v I.'r-- )!\ --'"A.iIJ ;'lj~ VJ' J _ 1\) _~ \ p<I\Jl' 4-" '~VI tV I ,.~~, ,i~/:' . \. v . iv l Qj\~' " 0ql\-~:GJ . ill; ivL0 j\II' It . March 20, 2008 Mr, McAlpin was selected as the team leader. ( 8, Fundinl! Leo Ochs was selected as the team leader. David Buser was added to the . team. 9, Develooment and Submittal of New 10 vear Manal!ement Plan and Permit Aoolication Marsha Crooks was added to the team. ----.---- A discussion ensued regarding the status of the existing permit, the I year extension application or a renewal of the existing application and further why a new permit application needs to encompass new activities. It was noted the avenue taken should be to obtain the 1 year extension of the existing permit and prepare a new permit application(s) over the year. Tim Hall noted that in order for the Department of Environmental Protection to review the existing renewal proposal, or a new permit application and issue a permit, the County will be required to address new parameters that were not identified 10 years ago. Further, some of the activities within the renewal of the permit application he prepared at the direction of the Pelican Bay Services Division will probably require greater definition by the Department of Environmental Conservation. Commissioner Henning, Chairman of the Board of County Commissioners suggested the use of an inter-local agreement t() _t;~l[lblish which entities (Board or Courity Comrl1Ts-siC;;;ers~Clt{o~Napfesal1d_tbt: Pelican Bay Services Division, etc.) will be responsible for managing the different aspects of a potential permit. Ted Raia noted that Pelican Bay community has spent a significant amount time and money in managing the water quality in the Estuary and is concerned that they will be removed from the responsibility of this task. He suggested 7 ! 'I CI0. K' ,f 1 \,\/ , I ,,/1 ~t;. "l .~. . -I (, ,Ie . ~I~) fJ~\.;t/ ,.(I.' I I ., "IL- \jv"V~ i f{U>fl(' /t\ I. . ~k v)\ {t(;\ l (.).-' 1.\' I ',\ \ .,M\.\i\:/ _ J\ I,' \ \\ \Xjk . \ ,LN'- . ' I,Jk \", c V, tr'l .~, r, lel/ .,~d/lj IlJi ,,\/\ :t N~ \VJ,J> . vJ!l . 11 h\ e U-1' iL {1^JIL-. (10 ('ul/} V'> . iJI,\\iIJ -\:. March 20, 2008 that the existing renewal for the permit be_submittedJothe Department ~f EnvlroriineiitlliI'h5lecllol1 for review and await comments on iTie-llj5Jiiicati'on before proceeding. Mr, Sorey noted that the Pelican Bay Services Division has done a great job on stormwater and mangrove management, but times have changed over the last 10 years. At this point in time, the issues are more complex and the County has a different level of capability with the establishment of the Coastal Zone Management Office, etc. and the maintenance of the water quality within the Estuary requires a more holistic approach. However, the efforts and cooperation with the Pelican Bay Community should not be decreased, but broadened. The strategy arranged by Mr. McAlpin and the County Mana~e~s a~pr~ri~tt:at t\:ti?poTnr.-------' -- -,'- -- u .. Mr, McAlpin stated he wishes to derive a product tailored to local control with the incorporation of larger issues than previously identified. He requested the opportunity to work this issue through to fruition. Kathy Worley of the Conservancy of Southwest Florida noted that due to time constraints it is important to obtain the extension of the existing permit. It was noted that the extension is "'in the mail." Marsha Cravens noted the request for the I-year extension of the existing permit should not impede the submittal for a renewal of the permit which is the will of the people of Pelican Bay. This request for the renewal will be brought to the Board of County Commissioners. Mr, McAlpin noted this would be acceptable and the new permit application may take a parallel path to this request. He will also provide all the contact information for the various teams to all parties involved. Mr, Burke recommended any individual wishing to be involved in the group conlact Mr. McAlpin and obtain a copy of the existing permit-furrexiew. ,~---r:1e also recognized the mangrove maintenance and restoration will not be l overlooked by the Discussion Group. --- ---- - 5, Additional Action Items None 6, Next meeting The next meeting will be held on May I, 2008. 8 + I f,,,/2 " 11 .~ r lJII liVre., d'V., ~~l/ 'Of .r .YfUL I j'l; March 20, 2008 ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the group leader at 11:25 A,M, Clam Bay Estuary Discussion Group Gary McAlpin, Group Leader These minutes approved by the Discussion Group on as presented or as amended 9 Clam Bay Discussion Group i './) .t;{. ,() /l / (j) <.{ < u... 0'7'" 'l-jf/ . ////) ~, //<':'/'(/1'/ /1< < ", 'i2j I~ L4:-- . . a> j,j >1/ /' . j .j'! u'\f.'ic. C." l. -I .' / ' '1 \.k.) :) .).~ J.. Y (':'j l!)t f/ I vy n~ (ci'lV ---1~,,) Preliminary work topics, tasks and approach for discussion at the 3/20/2008 work team meeting .-/ Work tonics 1. Water Quality and Sampling . Sampling locations review and assignment/re-assignment as needed including Venetian Bay/Mooring Bay Taxing District . Standard sampling procedure and test parameters . Uniform sample timing . QA/QC review of data and upload of data into CZM website and Storrett . Yearly publication of entire estuary Water Quality Report . Review existing data with identification of suspect data . Plan developed relative to old data; upload, keep with comments, destroy . Consistency with Collier County, City of Naples, Moorings Bay Taxing District, PBSD and others as necessary . Sampling Sites numbered, GPS located and marked on County Wide System/Drawing . Standardize on County Lab for uniform analysis . Place test descriptions on the website for public understanding . Work Team; Pamela Keyes, Tim Hall, Kyle Lukasz, Katie Laakkenon, Doug Findley and possibly Rhonda Watkins. v. 2, BMP's for Seagate and Venetian Bay . Review of existing system for base lining . Identification of short, mid range and long range BMP/goals; set priorities and perform Gap analysis . Identification of short term, inexpensive, quick fix solutions for immediate implementation, if any. . Identification of mid range projects . Identification of long range projects . Work Team; Mike Bauer, Dave Tomasko and lor PBS&J, Katie Laakkonen, Gary McAlpin 3, Mixing Analysis in Outer Clam Bay to study the effects between SeagateNenetian Bay; Clam Pass and the PBSD Storm water Runoff, . Consultant based study to determine relationship and interaction between systems. . Work Group; Dave Tomasko and/or PBS&J, Tim Hall, Mike Bauer, Jim Burke, Gary McAlpin and a Moorings Bay representative. "j" f 4, Sand Bypassing at Clam Pass ebb tide shoal and permit generation . Develop a sand bypassing permit application for Clam Pass with sufficient tangible assurances to Pelican Bay to allow sand bypassing capabilities moving forward. ,I n '(...\'-l + ~I._,,-.. iJ1i..c1"i I < ' A:.e, c \) , 1711(~J SW~ ( . n.q- ~ ~ \~\- e>R:. ~ ~--"._-'--- . Timing of Pass dredging adjusted/reevaluated based mangrove flushing needs, beach re-nourishment needs and results of mixing study. ) . Work team; Jeff Tobar (Coastal Engineer from PBS&J - Neutral Coastal Engineering Firm), Jim Burke, Coleman Connell, Gary MCAlpin"" . Document as revised inlet management plan with Board approval . CAC funds can be used to fund this item. 5. Navigation . Permits for canoe trail markers have been obtained from USACE and FWC . Determine if canoe trail markers can be used as navigational markers and if so, what modifications and/or permits need to be made. . Resolve location of navigational channel after mixing study is complete. . Resolve any restrictive covenants and impacts on quick claim deed that might determine approach. . Review signage in pass . Permit navigational markers and install . Work team; . Kyle Lukasz, Tim Hall, Pamela Keyes, Katie Laakkonen, Seagate .~.",. representative and Gary McAlpin. 6, Marine Life including Sea grass monitoring . Determine the optimum marine environment including sea grasses for the Clam Bay estuary. . Sediment Analysis . Develop appropriate monitoring program . Develop short, medium and long range goals and action Plans . Identify and secure grants for habitat monitoring and restoration, if appropriate . Work Team; Tim Hall, Dave Tomasko, Pamela Keyes and Katie x- Laakkonen 7. Education and Outreach including County fertilizer ordinance modifications . Develop County outreach program that deals with nutrient control/education for estuary's and storm water. . Review policies and procedures of surrounding communities for consistency and effectiveness, if appropriate. . Develop short, mid term and long term goals and implementation plans . Review enforcement options and opportunities . Work team; Kyle Lukasz, Mike Bauer, Gary McAlpin, Pamela Keyes 8, Funding . Define the duplication of efforts that can be eliminated or reduced with better coordination ( Monitoring reports, surveys, hard bottom documentation, etc) . Appropriate and equable funding for each organization . 2008/09 inclusion in budget plans . Sustainable funding source moving forward . Organization structure for management and decision making .-.-- . Work team; Leo Ochs, John Sorey, Coleman Connell, Jim Burke, Gary McAlpin and a Seagate Representative. 'r< 9, Development and submittal of new 10 year Management Plan and permit application . Work Team; Tim Hall, PBS&J, Mike Bauer, Gary McAlpin, Jim Burke, y- Identification of the immediate bud et needs to et started 1. What is needed until the next budget cycle to define and fund this activity ------ CAC June 12. 2008 New Buaine&l VIII-2 1of4 @ exECUTIVE SUMMARY Recommend approval of Work Order pBSJ-FT -4153-08-01 under Contract 07-4153 with PBS&J for Clam Pass Ebb Tide Shoal Analysis and Dredging Permit for time and material not to exceed $25,060.00 (project No. 195-900601). OBJECTIVE: To recommend approval of WorK Order PBSJ_FT-4153-08-01 under Contract 07-4153 with PBS&J for Clam Pass Ebb Tide Shoal Analysis and Dredging Permit for time and material not to exceed $25,060.00. CONSIDERATIO~: This Work Order is necessary in order to: 1. Provide professional guidance and expert review of project documentation for Clam Pass sand bypassing. PBS&J will review project documentation, reports, permits, monitoring data, inlet management plan, etc. Professional recommendation(s) will be provided to the County on the Clam Pass Ebb Shoal analysis and modifications to allow additional dred in ~ sand byoassing, A final report will be prepare at outlines the ndings of the investigation and outlines the project recommendations. 2. Prepare a oermit aoplication provide permit engineering and technical -assistance required to obtain a dredging permit to maintain hydraulic flushing and emergency storm support for Clam Pass. The technical basis of this permit will be exactly as Permit 0128463-001-JC, that will expire July 6, 2008 and is currently being requested to be extended one year. FISCAL IMPACT: The Source of funds is from Category OA" Tourist Development Tax. gROWTH MANAGEMENT IMPACT: There is no impact to the Growth Management Plan related to this action. RECOMMENDATION: To recommend under Contract 07-4153 with PBS& fo Group for time and material not to eXce PREPARED BY: Gall Hambright, Tourist Tax Coordinator -_.-~--_.. ......._.-.."--