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CLB Minutes 08/20/2008 R August 20, 2008 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida August 20, 2008 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractor Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson Richard Joslin Eric Guite' Lee Horn Terry Jerulle Thomas Lykos Michael Boyd Glenn Herriman ALSO PRESENT: Patrick Neale, Attorney for the Board Robert Zachary, Assistant County Attorney Michael Ossorio, Building Review & Permitting Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE WEDNESDAY - AUGUST 20, 2008 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: JUNE 18, 2008 V. DISCUSSION John Gorman - Discussion of Carpentry License VI. NEW BUSINESS: Bern Michael Kahle - Contesting Citation. Marcela Lopez - Review of work experience affidavits. Joseph P. Hollatz - Review of work experience affidavits. VII. OLD BUSINESS: VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS: Case #2008-11 Paul Riddleberger d/b/a Riddleberger Custom Homes, LLC Case #2008-12 David Johnson d/b/a Johnson's Tree Service & Stump Grinding, Inc. IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: WEDNESDAY SEPTEMBER 17, 2008 W. HARMAN TURNER BUILDING, 3RD FLOOR (COMMISSIONERS MEETING ROOM) 3301 E. TAMIAMI TRAIL NAPLES, FL 34104 (COURTHOUSE COMPLEX) August 20, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board meeting on August 20th, 2008. Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this board will need a verbatim record of the proceedings therein, which is being taken. I'd like to start with roll call to my right. MR. JERULLE: Terry Jerulle. MR. HERRIMAN: Glenn Herriman. MR. L YKOS: Tom Lykos. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MR. BOYD: Mike Boyd. MR. GUITE': Eric Guite. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Additions or deletions to the agenda? Andy? (Sic.) MR. JACKSON: Good morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ian, I'm sorry. MR. JACKSON: That's okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Andy is gone. MR. JACKSON: Andy's gone. For the record, Ian Jackson, License Compliance Officer for Collier County. Under new business, Bern Kahle, who is contesting a citation, will be postponed until September, the next hearing. And under new business, we have an addition, Kyle Green, reviewing a credit report for licensing. And those are the additions and deletions that staff has. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to add one. Under discussion, discussion of new chairmanship for the board for the immediate future, or the upcoming years or whatever. Okay, do I have any other additions or deletions to the agenda? Page 2 August 20, 2008 (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ifnot, I'll entertain a motion to approve as amended. MR. JOSLIN: Motion to approve the agenda as amended, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? MR. BOYD: Second, Boyd. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. LYKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed, like sign? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Minutes ofthe last meeting. You've had a chance to look over those. I need a motion to approve them or amend them. MR. BOYD: Motion to approve, Boyd. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tom? MR. L YKOS: I noticed a couple of things. And I hope -- I hope I read the mistakes correctly, if that makes sense. On Page 11, and on Page 35, responses were noted as being stated by Mr. LaChance, but at those parts of the meeting Mr. LaChance was no longer part the proceedings. I think it was just a typo. I've made a note in the minutes where those locations occurred, so I don't know if it's just a matter of correcting who the respondent was. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who was making those comments? MR. L YKOS: On Page 11, there were two areas where the respondent was Mr. LaChance, and I believe it was supposed to be Page 3 August 20, 2008 Mr. Vail. And then on Page 35, it was -- the respondent was listed as Mr. LaChance, and I believe -- I couldn't tell who that was supposed to be. I don't have a note on that. I think it was -- actually the respondent was the person who was in front of us, it just was noted as the wrong person. MR. NEALE: I think at 35, it may have been Mr. Reardon. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Reardon? Okay. Yeah, those are important, if there's ever an appeal. Pat, are you in agreement with -- MR. NEALE: With the corrections, yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, with both those corrections. Okay. Any other discussion on that? Anyone disagree with it? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that it? MR. L YKOS: That's it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So I'll entertain a motion to approve the minutes as amended. MR. JOSLIN: So moved. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, second? MR. L YKOS: Second, Lykos. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. LYKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Moving on, discussion. I have been reappointed to this board for another three-year term. Presently I've been on the board 20 years. I've Page 4 August 20, 2008 been chairman for the last five years. And in all of my 20 years as being on this board, it's always been a policy -- it's unwritten, there's nothing in the guidelines or the ordinance of how it's supposed to be done, but whoever stayed the longest was the chairman until he either died or moved on. Well, I want to change that procedure. One, I don't plan on dying, and two, I don't plan on moving on. But there's other qualified people on this board who have been around. I'm thinking specifically of Richard Joslin, he's been on this board for 19 years and has been vice-chairman for the last five years. What I would like for us to do is, whether we start it as doing it every year at this time when new appointments come on or we do it every three years, we can kind of decide on that, but I think we should follow the lead of the county commission. You know, the county commissioners change chairman every year, and they just rotate it. So what I want to do is this be my last meeting as chairman, and I will step down as chairman. And then the beginning of the next meeting, which will give you time to think about it, under the discussion, and we'll add that to the agenda, the beginning of the next meeting we will elect a new chairman and a new vice-chairman. Any comments on that? (Mr. Horn enters the boardroom.) MR. JOSLIN: You think that the rotation factor would still be something that we could do? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know that it's rotation. But there's been so many people that don't want to be chairman or vice-chairman so -- and I wouldn't be at all bashful about nominating yourself, if you want to do that. So it's -- basically a chairman is nothing more than a referee and keeps the meeting going, stops redundancy, controls the meeting. That's the biggest issue. You've got to control the meeting. All you have to do is watch a couple of -- well, watch television and some of Page 5 August 20, 2008 the other committees. Some of these committees meet for two and three days because there is no control. Now, that I don't want to ever happen to this committee, okay? Mr. Neale, you want to add anything? MR. NEALE: The only thing to add is the only thing that's referenced in the ordinance is that the board shall elect a chair and a vice chair. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Your mic is too far away. MR. NEALE: It doesn't say how often or whatever, it just says that you have to elect a chair and vice chair. But the board can adopt policies of its own internal operation. So the board could adopt a policy of annual elections, like every three years, however. The other thing that I would just make a point is that the chair also should be familiar with the procedures of the board and how the procedures are to be done so that -- to ensure that due process is always followed. That's where a little bit of experience on the board helps in a chair that understands how it's done. Fortunately we have a solid board here that everybody seems to know the procedures pretty well, so that helps a lot. MR. JOSLIN: I believe there was also -- one of the items that was in the ordinance that called for not only a chair and a vice chair, but wasn't another acting chair in case of the absence of both? MR. NEALE: No, but that's something that the board could adopt as its own policy, if it wished. MR. JOSLIN: It would, okay. In case someone doesn't show, a vice chair or the chair don't show at the meeting or can't show at the meeting, there's someone that can still continue the meeting. MR. NEALE: What you could probably do at that point in time is the board -- the members who are here could then elect an acting chair for that meeting, would probably be the best thing to do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And it has nothing to do with my -- I Page 6 August 20, 2008 love serving on this board. I think highly of this board and what we do. I think it's evident within the community. I think the staff that we have is better than any staff we have had in the past. That's not an idle comment, Mr. Ossorio, it is better than any staff we've had in the past. I just think we need -- I need to spread the joy. It's fun. It's fun being chair. Now, I will let you know, there are some times that you-- outside of this meeting you do have to go sign orders, you do work somewhat closely with Mr. Ossorio when issues come up, so you have to be available. And unfortunately here lately I've been receiving phone calls from people coming before the board meeting at my home or the office, which I don't really tolerate those, I just tell them no discussion, good-bye, so we'll see you at the board meeting. Again, that would be a violation of the Sunshine Law. MR. NEALE: Well, it would also probably be what would be considered an ex-parte communication. And since these are quasi-judicial proceedings, it could -- certainly it would be frowned upon, put it that way. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And there is a four-hour class coming up on Sunshine Law. Have they rescheduled that, Mike? MR. OSSORIO: Yes, they have. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You will need to attend that. And that's not my reason for stepping down either. Okay? MR. L YKOS: Well, I think it's appropriate that we set some standard. If it's have an appointment of a new chairman and vice-chair every year, every three years, I think it's appropriate that we have that established. I understand you want to change right away, but I don't know that I'm -- I'm not advocating that necessarily as much as I'm advocating that we set some standard for the board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I agree with you. And we can do that Page 7 August 20, 2008 in our discussion next month. That way everyone will have time to think about it and we can do it somewhat quickly, okay? So keep that in mind and we will address it at the beginning of the next meeting and it will take effect immediately, okay? All right, moving on so these people don't have to be delayed. Good morning to all of you. John Gorman, are you present? MR. GORMAN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would, John, come up here to the podium. I need for you to state your name. I will have you sworn in by the reporter. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: John, you've requested to be on the agenda for a discussion of a carpentry license, so tell us what you want to discuss. MR. GORMAN: Can I just give you a hand-out first? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, we're not doing anything. Are we okay with this, Mr. Neale? It's just a discussion? MR. NEALE: Yeah, I mean, it's just a discussion. The board isn't going to take any action, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, go ahead. MR. GORMAN: Okay. The letter I sent in a few weeks ago was to a Mr. Robert Dunn, and it was about -- regarding the carpentry license. And what it comes down to basically is that I am -- I'm over here at the moment on a business transfer visa. Now, I've gone through the system, as regards becoming licensed and insured, and I chose the carpentry license because it covered the following items: Light and heavy carpentry, rough framing, trusses, sheathing, metal framing, paneling, trim, cabinetry, doors, windows, stairs and incidental hardware. This was ideal for what I wanted to do, so I paid for the exam, took the exam, and on the 21st of June I passed the exam in Naples. Page 8 August 20, 2008 After that, I collected a licensing package from the licensing office up at Horseshoe. And a few days later, after getting all the paperwork together, I was called up to speak to Mr. Ossorio. And at that point he said that I was successful with the license, but we had a discussion that day and he said that I was not covered to work on any type of windows. Now, it clearly states in all the carpentry applications, which is the Prometric, Gainesville and even the Collier County licensing description of carpentry contractors, that -- I'll just give you that one very quickly: The knowledge and skill to install any wood and metal products. So I questioned this with Mr. Ossorio, and he told me to speak to his supervisor, which was Mr. Dunn, which I did, and hence why I'm here today. I was extremely disappointed that no one could give me an answer on why windows were excluded from the license. So basically all the paperwork I've got, everything mentions windows and doors in there. The scopes on all of these mention windows, but for some reason it doesn't seem to be part of the carpentry license. So really I'm here today just to find out why that isn't in there when, as I say, it does show it in all the paperwork. Just one very quick. In the Gainesville carpentry application it says the installation, repair and replacement of any type of window and doors. What I'm saying is I wouldn't have taken this particular license if items that are stated on there were then not going to be included. I would have gone for a contractor's license. So I just need an explanation, really, on why there's items listed in these and I'm not allowed to perform those items. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, Mr. Ossorio? MR. OSSORIO: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. For the record, . Page 9 August 20, 2008 Mike Ossorio, Collier County Contractor Licensing Supervisor. Mr. Gorman is correct, we did have several meetings referencing windows and glass and glazing. . The state is pretty clear of who can replace windows. There is a specialty license through the State of Florida, it's called aluminum specialty, and they can replace windows with no height restrictions -- actually, there is a height restriction on that, it's only on single-family homes. We do have a glass and glazing license which can replace windows and there is no height restrictions. There's also one for the state as well, a certified glass and glazing. We have a carpentry exam, and carpentry can frame windows, they frame trusses. And I talked to Mr. Gorman, it's always been a policy that a carpentry contractor cannot get a building permit to replace windows on a residential home or a commercial building or a condo unit, whatever that might be. I did look at his -- the information, and it appears to be ambiguous, and I did agreed with him, so I did make contact with Thomson Prometric, which is a nationwide company, which we use, and they responded back. And I'll go ahead and read to you what they responded, if! can find it. This is Arthur Thomson; he is the test developer and he's the one that actually develops the tests and makes the stuff gets in that needs to be. And he says that, I looked at each item on the exam and you are correct, the exam is totally based on framing, there are no specific questions about windows. This is dated July 25th, 2008. Mr. Gorman is not very happy, and I understand that maybe he was led down the wrong path. And I agree with his analogy that it does say windows in there. But I cannot grant something to him -- if I granted him the ability to pull windows, then every single carpentry contractor in Collier County can pull window permits. And he doesn't realize that when I make a decision based on his ability, I have to Page 10 August 20, 2008 make a decision on all abilities. So this is why Mr. Gorman's here today. I've told Mr. Gorman he should take the glass and glazing test, and he decided to come here in front of the licensing board. I don't know where -- his e-mail suggests that I'm being impartial or being some kind of a grievance against him. He's got to realize that when I make a decision, it's not based on his decision, it's based on the whole carpentry community itself. And that I just don't do. He can petition the board, the licensing board, and if you feel that we made a mistake, then he can -- you know, I will respect the licensing board decision. However, the testing company did come back, specify that there's really nothing on the test for windows, only for framing. And this is what he does, he's a carpentry contractor. And they did acknowledge that there is windows in the scope and they are going to change the pamphlets on the information in January when they have their new procedures. So there are going to be some changes. MR. JOSLIN: So what you're saying then it in reality was an error on the testing company that gave him the test and the information to -- MR. OSSORIO: Under the scope -- he has a copy of it. Under the scope it says windows. And I believe they probably should have said window framing, but there was a comma. It says framing, slash -- comma, windows. And that really should have been maybe window framing, not windows itself. So this is what I gather from the testing company. He's got to realize that if we grant him a license to install windows there's no really restrictions on windows, he could put it on a high-rise. And I don't think a carpentry contractor in general should not (sic) be putting windows, replacement windows on a 20-floor high-rise. He's got to realize, Mr. Gorman, that what we do here is life safety. Page 11 August 20, 2008 And I know that he might want to do a small job, a residential job, but there's no distinction between the two. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's -- well, and every time I've seen a carpenter doing windows, it's under the direction and the umbrella of a general contractor or a building contractor who has pulled the permit for the entire job. It's unfortunate you didn't have this conversation prior to going through all this. Mr. Neale, do you want to say anything? MR. NEALE: No, I think Mr. Ossorio summed it up very well. You know, with the ordinance, it may be slightly ambiguous but in truth if you read it as a whole, combining carpentry with glass and glazing and hurricane shutter and awning, it becomes much clearer. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Zachary, do you concur? MR. ZACHARY: I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you all know who the -- these are our attorneys. One is the attorney for the board, Mr. Neale, and one is the attorney for the county. They keep us out of trouble. MR. GORMAN: That's good. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can he not do these tests through Gainesville? MR. OSSORIO: Yes, he can. He could do the -- I've talked to Mr. Gorman about this, and if he wanted to, he could take the glass and glazing within a day or two. He can drive up to Ocala, they have a nice big facility up there. I've been up there and looked at their facility. Since he's already taken the business and procedure test, he just needs to take the glass and glazing. But he knows that. So it's really up to Mr. Gorman. I don't know where this visa comes into play, but it is what it is. And I told him that, that unfortunately I'm not the person that can make those decisions. The State of Florida is pretty explicit about who Page 12 August 20, 2008 can install windows. If you take a six-hour exam through the State of Florida for a specialty, you can only do residential windows, and it specifies residential windows. We don't have that category. We have a glass and glazing which is unrestricted to height limitations, and we have a carpentry exam which frames the window up. Most carpentry contractors frame the window and the actually window company, which is glass and glazing company, they will come in after and they will do the installing, due to the fact that they're going to be doing the warranty with it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't think we personally have the authority to approve this anyway as a board, because we'd be rewriting the ordinance. MR. NEALE: I agree. MR. JOSLIN: What type of experience have you had in doing windows? You're asking us to consider this or either think about it. But I'd like to know-- MR. GORMAN: Well, I'll tell you very quickly my background. In 1979 I became a carpenter-joiner with -- fully qualified. And from there I moved on over the years. I've also got a City & Guilds in electrics and electronics. That's a UK qualification. City & Guilds. And then I moved on, I went back to college and did a three-year management course in construction, which I've got site supervisory, site management and a site diploma in the CIOB, which is the Chartered Institute of Building. So I do know where I'm coming from as regards to construction. And I just can't understand why these all are -- I think ambiguous was the word that was used. And they definitely, definitely need rewriting. Because as I say, the Gainesville one, even though the copy I got from the licensing department, knowledge and skill to install any wood and metal products, it -- you know, I wouldn't have taken this exam if I knew that that list was going to get smaller. I would have Page 13 August 20, 2008 gone probably for a contractor's license. MR. JOSLIN: Well, it's unfortunate at the moment that this has happened to you. However, you have to try to understand Mr. Ossorio's point of view, that the ordinance doesn't come exactly all of it from Collier County, it comes from the State of Florida. Now, maybe your qualifications in the UK and how you did things there and what tests you took and how you performed your working there could differ from here, and obviously it does. So I'm sure that the board's going to agree that at this moment we can't help you, other than to advise you on where to go to take the test that's necessary, as long as you have the experience situations to be able to pass this test and to then get that license to do the windows that you want to do. MR. GORMAN: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you can -- first of all, you're a smart man, that's very obvious. Number two, we don't discriminate against you, we like your accent. Number three, we don't victimize, that's an American cliche. I hope the British don't pick that up, everyone here wants to be a victim -- MR. GORMAN: Not yet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- but yeah, don't grab that one. So if anything, we will help you to expedite through this problem, and apologize that it was ambiguous, and that will be changed. But you can pass the glass and glazing standing on your head. And you can -- we have a facility that you can do that immediately. And Mr. Ossorio's office will help you get this resolved. And all we can do is apologize to you that it happened. MR. GORMAN: Okay. Can I just -- while we're talking about these items that are actually on the license information, is there anything else that's going to appear when I actually go to pull a license -- a permit on something that I'm not going to be able to do? Doors. Page 14 August 20, 2008 Where do doors start and finish? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, this would be a discussion that you can have with Mr. Ossorio and not take the time of the board or these other people. But he will direct you. It's just unfortunate you didn't have this discussion in the beginning. But we'll help you get it cleared up. Okay? MR. GORMAN: Okay, I just -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And we wish you very well. MR. GORMAN: Well, hopefully I can get things in place. But it's just a -- it's a very, very long process, as you're probably aware -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's frustrating, yeah, and we'll help you get through it any way we can. Okay? MR. GORMAN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Mr. Neale, I don't need to take an action, since it was a discussion? MR. NEALE: That was purely a discussion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. We wish you well. You will do good here. You don't need to stay unless you just want to see what goes on. Okay, moving on. New business, Marcela Lopez, are you present? MRS. LOPEZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning. If you would state your name, I'll have you sworn in. MRS. LOPEZ: Nilda Marcela Lopez. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning. MRS. LOPEZ: Good morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Your English okay? MRS. LOPEZ: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Nice accent. Page 15 August 20, 2008 You're here for review of work experience affidavits? MRS. LOPEZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, usually when that happens, they made a call to somebody and it didn't -- so let me go over here first, okay? MRS. LOPEZ: Sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio, or Ian, did one of you call on this and there's a problem? MR. OSSORIO: Actually, there is actually no problems with her affidavits, if you look at the review. I did call some, and they all said that she's a great person and they know her well. Unfortunately her affidavits are lacking the experience for drywall, and maybe she can bring more information to the board to go ahead and see if you will grant her the license, if you -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why am I not finding this? MR. L YKOS: It's in this packet. MR. NEALE: It's in an envelope. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And while we're doing it, this one that you postponed to next week -- or next month, how do you -- Kahle. If you all would hang on to that and bring that back with you. MR. OSSORIO: We'll do that, Mr. Chairman. I'll pick up the packets and then I'll redistribute next month, so you don't have to worry about that. If you look at her application, I did call Kraft Construction, and basically that unfortunately Mrs. Lopez really hasn't been on the job site hanging the drywall, which in term it does it says skilled and apprenticeship time and supervisor role, administrative role. She has the admin. experience but she lacks the experience on hands on. I believe Mrs. Lopez's husband has taken the exam a couple times and probably has failed it and so Mrs. Lopez stepped up to the plate to go ahead and try to get the license to conduct business. I have no problem granting this license. Unfortunately the code Page 16 August 20, 2008 does specify that I have to refer to the licensing board if there's an issue pertaining to experience. I have no problem issuing some kind of a probational period license to see how she does. That's my recommendation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just a probationary? Well, first of all, she worked for Russell Budd for 10 years, your husband must be good. MRS. LOPEZ: Yes, he is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I think a lot of Russell, he's a good man. MRS. LOPEZ: Yeah. He still want him back, but he wants to try on his own. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And for your information, if your husband ever wants to get his license, Gainesville Testing does the test in Spanish. MRS. LOPEZ: Oh, we didn't know that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See, there's so much information out there if people would ask. MRS. LOPEZ: Well, he's been trying also for the state license in Spanish. But I don't know why when he get into a book, it take him so long to read, even in Spanish, that he doesn't have the time enough to finish the whole test. So that's -- you know. But he does have a lot of experience, and he's good at what he's doing. I mean, you can see in the letter from Russell, he started as a laborer and work his way to up and ended up being one of the best, because he know what he's doing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, do you have some experience with drywall? MRS. LOPEZ: The only experience I have is we own five properties and we all remodel all, doing drywall, framing, tile, everything. And we did build our own house back in 2000. And between him and me, we did all the work. Page 17 August 20, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale? Okay, need you guys help me out here. This has come up so many times lately where the wife is the bookkeeper and all of that, but she does -- and the man is the hands on. I feel like we're opening Pandora's box. MR. NEALE: Well, in other cases that have come before the board, there was very little evidence if any of previous experience by the wife and doing the work. Here there appears to be at least some experience, plus there's a definite commitment it appears from the husband to be -- she would still be the responsible party. I think Mr. Ossorio's suggestion of a probationary period would allow the board to maintain supervision on this, make sure that things are being done appropriately, while not opening the door for everybody to walk in and just start grabbing licenses. And plus it also protects the public, I think. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: She took -- did you take the test? MRS. LOPEZ: Yes, I did. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you passed it. MRS. LOPEZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. JOSLIN: 82 and 86. MR. NEALE: 82 and 86, yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 86. Well, you obviously know something about it. MR. JOSLIN: She reads the book very well. MR. NEALE: 82 on drywall and 86 on the business and law-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're the brains, right? MRS. LOPEZ: We both are, believe me. He have a lot of -- I do have the brain in numbers and he has the brain in all kinds of business. I mean, we've been -- all the decision he's been taking through our marriage has been successful. And fortunately I can say that we've been successful through this 24 years we've been in the U.S.A. MR. JOSLIN: How long have you been married? Page 18 August 20, 2008 MRS. LOPEZ: Married? Actually, 19. Together, 22. Then we know each other 24. Actually, almost 25. And I'm telling you, I don't have anniversary, because every time anniversary come, he say, oh, no, that's not the one, it's the one we marry, no, it's not the one, that's the one we met each other, the day we move in together -- so okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't let him get away with that. MRS. LOPEZ: I'm trying. MR. JOSLIN: In other words, he has a hard time remembering your anniversary. I got you. MRS. LOPEZ: But I do get flowers once a month, so that will make it up. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else on the board, do you have questions or feedback? MR. JOSLIN: I don't think I'd really have a problem with granting a temporary license or a restricted license, I should say. It sounds like the young lady knows what she's doing, sounds like the husband does too dealing with the people that on the application here that they are dealing with now. That's my feeling. But like you said, I don't want to open a Pandora's box for every person to come in here that's going to try to get a license, the husband and wife. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, just, you know, there's other restrictions. You can place restrictions versus commercial buildings to residential, since they're from different particular codes. So if you feel more comfortable on only residential units, that would be something you can look at. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That can really cripple somebody. MR. JOSLIN: Yeah, because they're working for Kraft, they're working for some pretty big companies that do high-rises too. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: To me drywall is drywall, whether it's 20 stories or one floor. Page 19 August 20, 2008 MR. JOSLIN: And when you look at it on another point, I suppose putting up drywall is not something that's going to be that detrimental to the community, should something happen. I mean -- MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, there is difference in drywall. You know, when you do fire base -- you say that drywall is drywall, I'm sure the Fire Marshal and the Fire Plans Examiner have a different opinion, of course. MR. JOSLIN: Well, right. MRS. LOPEZ: He does have a lot of experience in firewall, too. The last job he did for Wall Systems was North Collier Hospital. MR. L YKOS: It seems like in reviewing this packet that your husband has a tremendous amount of experience in the field. You have a lengthy background in the administrative part of running a business. And I think maybe what we need to do is set some restrictions where both parties are involved the business. If they were to operate independently of each other, then I think the whole thing breaks down. MR. JOSLIN: Right, I agree. MR. L YKOS: I think they need to stay -- that the business needs to have both parties involved. I don't want -- I'm not anticipating this happening, but if either one of you were to try to do this on your own, I think it breaks down. MRS. LOPEZ: Oh, no, he could not do it without me and I cannot do it without him. I'm from Argentina and like we say, it takes two to tango, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody want to make a motion? MR. HERRIMAN: I have a question. Are you involved in or do you want to be involved in commercial, or is residential 100 percent of your -- MRS. LOPEZ: Well, to tell you the truth, he have both experience, but a lot more in commercial than residential. Like I said, the last one he did is North Collier Hospital, since he started with Wall Page 20 August 20, 2008 System. Because Wall System have three different companies. PBS is the one who do residential, custom homes and Wall System do the more commercial: School, hospital, office. And he was with Wall System and he has a lot of experience with more commercial than residential. But actually we do both. We want to do both. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Somebody want to go? MR. HERRIMAN: I'd like to make a motion that we grant her a probationary license, providing that both she and her husband are working together, and that they would never work separately without each other, and that they would be allowed to do residential and commercial. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How long? MR. HERRIMAN: With a probationary period of one year. MR. L YKOS: I'll second, Lykos. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? MR. JOSLIN: In the corporate minutes, is there anything in the corporate minutes that says that they're both involved in the corporation? I didn't pick that up. MR. L YKOS: Good question. I don't remember. MR. JOSLIN: Ifnot, then they should be, for sure. MR. L YKOS: They're both listed as officers and managing members of the firm. MRS. LOPEZ: Yes, as a 50/50. MR. JOSLIN: Okay, that's fine then. MRS. LOPEZ: I don't let him get away from any more. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, is that a legal motion? Restriction, legal restriction? MR. NEALE: I think you can probably restrict as to who's involved in the business, to make sure that they're both in there. Even though she's the license holder, she's fully responsible, but I think certainly it's within the purview of the board to say that they would have to be both involved in the business for this to go forward. Page 21 August 20, 2008 And then the board, you know, in one year's time will review their operations during the probationary period, and if the board feels that it's been operating satisfactorily, then the board can remove the probationary period and grant them an unrestricted license at that point. So this is going to come back to the board in a year from now anyhow. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does it automatically come back? MR. NEALE: It should. MR. JOSLIN: Do we have to put it in the motion? Should it be put in the motion? MR. NEALE: Yeah. Even though it's a one-year probationary period, you know, I think stating that the board wants to have it back at a meeting one year from now for review of the operations, I think that would be perfectly appropriate. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You want to amend your motion to that? MR. HERRIMAN: Yeah, amend it to have the probationary period be reviewed in one year. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is there a second? MR. L YKOS: I second the amendment. MR. JOSLIN: One last item. And should, in that one-year period that you've motioned to do, should they at some point separate, then their business would come before the board immediately and cease? MR. NEALE: Yeah, I mean, if they were to operate independently, I think. We don't want to get into their marital status or anything like that, but if they were to be operating independently, then it would immediately come back to the board for review, yeah. MRS. LOPEZ: That's good. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I've got a motion. Everyone understand it? Any discussion? Page 22 August 20, 2008 (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, call for the vote. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got unanimous. MRS. LOPEZ: Thank you so much. And I won't be a failure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, we got him tied down for the rest of his life. You can't go to Maggie today, because all of your stuff is here. But you can go to Maggie tomorrow, okay? MRS. LOPEZ: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay? MRS. LOPEZ: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do well. MRS. LOPEZ: Thank you so much. And I'll be seeing you guys in a year. Have a nice day. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Joseph Hollatz. I hope I said that right. MR. HOLLATZ: It's Hollatz. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's partially close. I'll have you state your name and then I'll get it. MR. HOLLATZ: Joseph Paul Hollatz. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hollatz. And I'll have you sworn in, Page 23 August 20, 2008 SIr. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, we're also here about work affidavits. What was your problem with these, Mr. Ossorio? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, if you look at the affidavits and read the affidavits, on the face of the application it doesn't meet the spirit of what license he is petitioning: Roof coat, roof painting, roof cleaning. Unfortunately he's done a lot of pressure cleaning, but it doesn't show on his affidavits that he's done any roof coating, roof painting or roof cleaning. I believe Joseph's here today to talk to you about maybe that he has the experience, and then the board can issue him the license, if they feel comfortable. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can I ask you a question? MR. OSSORIO: Certainly. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who in the world is Prometric? MR. OSSORIO: It used to be Thomson Prometric, now it's Prometric. And it used to be Block and Associates and then before that it was Experior. So there's a -- it's that they've been bought out. MR. NEALE: It's what used to be the Block exam. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: If you actually look at his affidavit, he has great credit. I have no problem with that, obviously. But on the verification of construction experience, if you look at what we look at for roof coating, roof painting, basically says he's worked on a farm, done, you know, that kind of stuff. And I can restrict him to do pressure cleaning only but not roof coating, but that's something that's up to the board wishes to do (sic). CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I see this first one, it said it included power washing and painting. MR. OSSORIO: That's not specifically to roof coating, roof Page 24 August 20, 2008 painting. MR. HOLLATZ: Could I make a statement? These people, you know, they're from Minnesota, and I had been on roofs, I've done roofs, I've done silos. Like they didn't really' understand, you know, being not from Florida, that up in Minnesota, I mean, you don't need a license for everything, and I'm saying that respectfully. And I told them, you know, this is what I'm trying to achieve, this is what I'm going for, it's for roof cleaning. And, you know, I sent them the paperwork. You know, they're busy people, they filled it out, I got it back. I was nervous about what they had written myself because I was -- that it wasn't going to get approved. But I submitted it anyway, hoping that it would be approved. So I do have another copy that's rewritten by one of my former employers that he rewrote for me, if I could hand that out, if that's okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, go ahead. MR. OSSORIO: And the reason why we bring this to the board is that we have been getting complaints on roof cleaning, roof painting contractors conducting their business on the rooftop area on tile roofs and breaking -- and there is some kind of an on-the-job training experience you need when you do roof coating, roof cleaning. You just don't want anyone up there on your tile roof or your barrel roofs, whatever it is, hosing it down and doing some work. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just means more work for me. MR. OSSORIO: How do you think roofing contractors have that ability to do that, I wasn't sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's why I don't clean roofs. But I do have some that create a lot of work for us. I'm a roofing contractor, okay. What are you going to spray up there? What are you coating Page 25 August 20, 2008 with? MR. HOLLATZ: I really just want it for power washing is what I want to do, and possibly bleaching. Because I had done my father-in-law's roof, kind of experimenting before I get this license, if! get it, that I would possibly do bleaching. But the painting, that I wouldn't be doing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you're just going to clean. MR. HOLLATZ: I just want to clean the roofs is all I want to do. MR. L YKOS: Does this license include painting? So even though he only wants to do power washing, the license allows him to do painting? MR. OSSORIO: Painting on rooftops, yes, to coat the roof, just III case. We have -- many times in the past we have -- this is one of the areas that we actually under the code we do, as a supervisor, I do restrict if I feel that this particular person doesn't have that ability, I just restrict him to roof cleaning. And that's up to him. If he decides that, I have no problem. We'll just dismiss this particular aspect of it and we'll proceed with the restriction. So the board doesn't have to make any action. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that all you want to do is pressure clean? MR. HOLLATZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good. Because this other stuff that's getting sprayed -- MR. HOLLATZ: Yeah, like anything else, I don't want to do something that I've never done. I don't want to, you know, make any mistakes on anyone's roof, you know. I have people, because I am in business currently, ask me oh, can you do some plumbing? No, I'm not going to touch it, because I don't know it, that's not my ability. So all I want to do is what's in my ability and help people out. Page 26 August 20, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, that last affidavit, does it say roof cleaning on there? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR. OSSORIO: No problem. Then that's all we need, and we will proceed with his restriction. And then if he does show experience in upcoming years, whatever it is, we can look at that at a different hearing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're done. MR. HOLLATZ: Thank you very much everyone. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: In can stop some of this stuff that's being sprayed on these roofs, I'll take a chance at that any time. Junk. Kyle Green. Good morning, sir. If you'll come up here, I'll have you state your name and we'll have you sworn in. MR. GREEN: My name's Kyle Green. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, the only thing we're looking at is your credit report. You've got some items in there, tell us about them. MR. GREEN: It's not good. I haven't-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Believe me, we've seen bad. MR. GREEN: My credit was worse a year ago. I've improved it by over 100 points in the past year. Right now it's at 650. Before it was like under five. I'm working on it. You know, I'm -- I understand that business involves people giving you money and giving you credit for materials and things like that, so it's probably a concern about my credit. So what I'm asking for is just a probationary license to do business so that I can make some money and continue to pay these things off, and then maybe in a year come back and show you a more improved credit report. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, but you're asking for it in Page 27 August 20, 2008 probably the worst trade for what we've had problems with. People that take cabinet deposits of 80 percent, we never see them again. So you know where we're coming from, okay? MR. GREEN: Well, yeah, yeah, I understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's constant. MR. GREEN: You know, I have a -- my corporation, I have a partner also in the corporation. He's not actually doing any business over here, he's just a partner in the business. He actually lives on the east coast. But he has better credit. Would that help anything? MR. JOSLIN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can he pass the test? He could do a financial responsibility officer, couldn't he, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We stopped that, didn't we? MR. NEALE: Collier County doesn't have it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR. GREEN: Well, I have made arrangements with a couple of companies. If you look on the pages after the credit report, I've made some calls, and I'm actually trying to get this stuff paid off. The first two I think I can have paid off in a few months, and that's two, you know. And then there's more down the line. But I can only -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's see how bad you are. I mean, first of all, I'm still going through it. I mean, I'm seeing Dish Network, $90. It's like okay, big deal. MR. JOSLIN: Really. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where is the bad stuff? MR. GREEN: Well, I don't know. MR. JOSLIN: Another I guess amazing question is all these little bills around here for the $90, the 350's and the 400's, where did they all come from and why? I mean, what's the reason why this all is behind you or you're having a problem with it? Page 28 August 20, 2008 MR. GREEN: Well, that was a few years ago I had some problems. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: AFNE is a bill collection agency. MR. GREEN: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And they buy receivables for next to nothing -- MR. GREEN: Sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- and make you all sorts of deals to settle them. MR. GREEN: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you've gotten lots of notices where they'll take a third or something like that. MR. GREEN: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. GREEN: So that's what -- I'm trying to clean it up as we go, you know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But this is all that's out there? We're looking at 300, $90, $800? MR. GREEN: No, there's a few more. I have a GMAC for $6,000. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now you're talking. MR. GREEN: That was a -- I couldn't make the payments, I guess, and they took the truck and they sold it and that's what they got for it, less what lowed. I guess I was upside down $7,000. I actually have been paying on -- I've paid on that. It was higher before, and -- you know, I need to get my credit cleaned up anyway, because I'd like to buy a house soon, I'd like to actually -- I'm actually trying to get a state contractor's license, which is the test that I did -- I passed the state test, and my license is under review at the state right now for a state contractor license. But in the meantime, who knows how long that will take because of this, of course. And in the meantime, I still would like to be Page 29 August 20, 2008 able to do business. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, Capital One, $800. Tallahassee Utilities, that's a shocker. Yeah, we're finding them. Road loans of 15,000? MR. GREEN: Well, I'm paying that. That's good. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, you've got some kickers in there. MR. GREEN: The road loans is my vehicle. Right now I'm paying it. Everything that I'm doing now, I'm paying. I have credit cards that I pay every month on time. I have my car loan. Educational loan is down there at the bottom on Page 2 that I pay -- or that are current or whatever, everything's as agreed on those ones. It's a few years ago are the collections, they're just -- I need to -- I'm cleaning them up as we speak, but it's just taking me time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: As credit reports go, they come before this board, and you're calling yours bad? It doesn't hold a candle to some of the bad ones we've seen. I'm not making light of the fact that you're in collection on some issues, but this is not insurmountable at all. MR. GREEN: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You can get out of this within a year. MR. GREEN: Sure, yes, I think so, too. I just have to put my nose to the grindstone and put the money where it needs to go. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How did you get in trouble? MR. GREEN: For -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Was there a woman involved? MR. GREEN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Like a divorce? MR. GREEN: No, just -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm not being prejudiced there. It's usually I hear the divorce or something going on. Page 30 August 20, 2008 MR. GREEN: It wasn't really a divorce, but it was definitely a woman involved. MR. JOSLIN: We'll leave it at that for the moment. MR. L YKOS: What are you doing for income now? MR. GREEN: Right now I'm not doing anything. I'm sitting on my butt waiting on my license. I thought the state license would be here by now. I didn't realize it would be such a process, and so that's why I'm trying to get this one. Before I was in business with my father, working under his license. He has a carpentry contractor's license. So -- but that's not working out because we're not really seeing eye to eye, so I have to get my own, which is why I went to get the state license. I passed the test, I went to school, everything. My scores are actually in the -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They're good. MR. GREEN: -- in the packet. But like I said -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's got a 98 and a 90 -- MR. GREEN: -- the state's taking forever. And I think they're going to be longer. And I'm going to have to go appear in front of the board for the state too for this same thing. So this here I can get and get back to work, whereas the state is going to be months. And I think I still have to get the license here, too, right, after I get it through the state, I still have to come back here and do things, no? MR. JOSLIN: All you have to do is just register here if you get the state license. MR. GREEN: Yeah, hopefully I will. MR. JOSLIN: If you get the license here for this, you would pay it -- MR. GREEN: But it's months. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where is your dad's business? MR. GREEN: He's -- it's not in this packet, but he's here in town. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's what I meant. Page 31 August 20, 2008 MR. GREEN: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What's the name of it? MR. GREEN: It was called Wood Wizards was the company that we were working on together. He's actually a superintendent for another contractor. But a few years ago he was his own carpentry contractor, and so we were doing some work together. But like I said, it didn't really work out. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio, what's the department's feeling? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Green got a citation. He paid it; am I correct? MR. GREEN: Yes, sir. MR. OSSORIO: And his credit is not that bad. I'd recommend that we put him on some kind of a probationary period for six months or a year. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you see his test scores? MR. OSSORIO: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Brilliant. MR. GREEN: Thank you. MR. HERRIMAN: It's really a minor credit report except for that car loan down here with GMAC. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, there was one that was 15,000, though. MR. HERRIMAN: He's on target for that, as agreed. That's that road loan for his new car. He's as agreed on that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, okay, you're right. MR. HERRIMAN: He could clear up these piddly ones in a week and then work on that GMAC that he got upside down on. It's a good credit report except for those little things. MR. JOSLIN: I think I would like to see probably some improvement still if we granted something, a temporary or a probationary license for the year period. Maybe two six-month Page 32 August 20, 2008 intervals of bringing another credit report in just to make sure that he is working and the credit report is coming up. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, good idea. Is that a motion? MR. JOSLIN: I'll put it into a motion, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you get that? THE COURT REPORTER: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Approved with two-- MR. JOSLIN: For a one-year probationary license with two six-month intervals where he'll bring a credit report in to staffto monitor that credit report. And if there's an improvement in it, then it will go another six months. It's a year probation, then it will be a true license. MR. HERRIMAN: I second that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Doesn't have to come back? MR. JOSLIN: No. Not if it's improved in the credit and he's working on paying them off. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Everything's clean, yeah. MR. GREEN: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? Comments? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? Page 33 August 20, 2008 (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're good to go. MR. GREEN: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, you can't do this till tomorrow, remember. MR. GREEN: Right, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So enjoy your last day off. I think you'll do well. MR. GREEN: Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But just treat people right. MR. GREEN: I will. MR. JOSLIN: Ninety-eight on the test. Are you sure you took that test yourself? MR. GREEN: Yes, sir. MR. JOSLIN: Just checking. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You don't want to come back here. MR. GREEN: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Good luck. MR. GREEN: Thank you very much. Old business. Public hearing, 10:00. We're still good to go, aren't we, everybody? Let's get them started. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, can -- maybe go out of order. Can we take David Johnson first since Paul Riddleberger might take an hour or so. Maybe Mr. Johnson would come first. Do a quick one first and then if need be, we could take a break before we do the last case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, David Johnson, are you here? If you would, sir, come up to the podium. And anybody -- I need to -- you're going to offer testimony? Mr. Ossorio, are you going to offer testimony? MR. OSSORIO: No. Page 34 August 20, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, can we swear them both in at the same time? If you would state your name. MR. JOHNSON: David Johnson. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ian, come back and state your name. MR. JACKSON: Ian Jackson, License Compliance Officer for Collier County. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can I have you both sworn in. (Speakers were duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me tell you how this works. It kind oflike a courtroom, but not really. We'll start with an opening statement, just kind of this is what happened, but no details, okay? And then both of you will do that. Then the county will present their evidence and call witnesses, if they want. After they're finished with the witnesses, you can ask those witnesses questions as well. Still with me? Then at that point you present your case. County can do the same thing. They can ask you questions or they can ask your witnesses questions. After that's all said and done, we'll have like a closing statement, and then we shut off the public hearing, which is basically a veil comes down, we've heard all we want to hear unless we think of something later we might ask you. But you basically hear us deliberate and find out whether you're guilty or not guilty, and if you're guilty, what the penalties are going to be. With me? MR. JOHNSON: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. With that, let's start with just opening statement. Mr. Jackson. MR. JACKSON: Thank you. This case involves Mr. Johnson-- first of all, I'd like to enter the packet into evidence, if I could. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, go ahead. I have a motion to move the packet into evidence. Page 35 August 20, 2008 MR. JOSLIN: Second -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in-- MR. JOSLIN: -- oh, sorry. Make a-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll do the first, and you do the second, okay? All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. That was this packet here. Okay, go ahead. MR. JACKSON: Thank you. This involves David Johnson conducting his business with a workers' compo exemption for himself and having employees working with no workers' compo coverage. I'll be the only witness for the county. So I'll leave that as my opening statement. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Johnson? MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, that's true. I couldn't get any. I mean, I have it now. Until-- I have two letters here that -- I have my liability insurance with -- I can't even think of their name now -- Oswald Tripp, sorry. And he tried for over a year through everybody they know to get me workmen's compo And he has this letter here with what his findings were. And then I have another letter of -- because I lost a lot of business from not having it. And Centex Homes, through their insurance people, tried to get it for me, because they wanted me to do work for them and I couldn't Page 36 August 20, 2008 because I didn't have it, along with other places sending me stuff, wanting me to work with them and I couldn't unless I had workmen's compo And everybody that I went to gave me their insurance company to try with them, and no one was issuing it to new people unless you had insurance before. And then one company actually -- if you had eight or more employees and done over 150,000 in payroll, then they would. But I didn't meet that criteria. Everybody else was as long as you worked on the ground. You working in the air, no one would issue it. And then finally after me and Ian talked again about this, whenever we had the meeting in his office, that's whenever Jeff Campbell was still working on it at that time, because I went to him one time, he worked on it for like six months, then he told me to go explore all the avenues of the staff leasing, you know, and all the employee leasing, which I did and then came back to him because they wouldn't do it either. I mean, they'd lease you their employees once again to work on the ground. Their employees weren't allowed to work off the ground and you couldn't use them anyway because they had no experience, you know. You just can't take somebody from them and put them in a tree off the ground with no experience. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What you're telling us, Mr. Johnson-- I'm kind of letting this go because I think we're going to handle this case kind of quickly through brevity. We all understand that, and we fully are aware of it and we don't doubt what you're telling us. MR. JOHNSON: I mean, I have it now, I was able to get it finally -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How did you get it? MR. JOHNSON: I got it through -- I can't even think of their name right now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can I take a look at it? Can I Page 37 August 20, 2008 introduce that as Exhibit A? You want to mark it? Give it to her, if you would. MR. GREEN: Here's the two letters and workmen's compo CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't need the two letters, just the workers' compo things. You care if I do this, Michael, handle it this way? MR. OSSORIO: No problem. MR. GREEN: When I first got the workmen's comp., I had to get it and keep my guys on the ground because she wouldn't do it off the ground either. And then another person found a Crum that's out of state and they would do it off the ground. So I went to them and they gave me an estimate -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're talking Crum Insurance? MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good company. MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. Then I brought it back to her, which is Triple A, AAA, whatever, Leasing -- Staff Leasing. I took it back to her and I was with her about a month at that time. And then they reviewed it and -- because she said it was the same code, whether you were on the ground or off the ground, just they had a stipulation that for them to cover you being off the ground she was the same as that other company, you had to be over $150,000 and had insurance before. But then they reviewed it and being I was with them for a month or two, then she switched me -- so she didn't lose me to Crum, she switched me and covered me being in the air to where then the guys could work in the air, you know, being above the ground working on ladders or buckets or spikes or whatever. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you got that marked yet? MR. JOHNSON: But before that-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give her that sheet. Okay, you've got to stop talking. Have you not got this down to Page 38 August 20, 2008 one hand? No, we're aware of the problem. It's absolutely a terrible situation. It's getting better. MR. JOHNSON: Well, since the economy went bad, that's how she told me she was able to do it now, which before she said she wouldn't have considered me before. But now that the economy's the way it is -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the county's doing their job, so you can't fault them. The state has laws that they have to enforce and we can't ignore. But I know exactly what you're talking about, people that couldn't get insurance. MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, I lost a lot of business due to it and-- that I couldn't even work for people. It wasn't that I wanted -- it wasn't that I felt like I had to get it to surpass -- you know to satisfy Ian. It had nothing to do with that. I wanted it for myself. I know a lot of companies that just don't want it because they think it's too expensive. Most of my work is in Collier County. I wanted it because everybody, you know -- 50 percent of the people that wanted me to work for them request it. So I lost a lot of business that I couldn't do nothing about as I was trying to get it -- MR. JOSLIN: We need to clarify one thing first, that this is not something that whether you want it or not, this is something that is required. MR. JOHNSON: I know, that's what I was saying to Ian. I'm like, Ian, what am I supposed to do, I've tried for a year and -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, calm down. Go ahead, Richard. MR. JOSLIN: No, that's what I was just saying. This is just a-- when you have this type of a license, this is an insurance that it is required for you to have, not something that whether you want it or not or other companies that want it or not. If there are other companies out there that are doing this without workmen's comp., then I'm sure at Page 39 August 20, 2008 one point Mr. Ian or Mr. Ossorio will find them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. This one, it's out of -- it is good. It's a company out of Dallas, Texas. Michael, you want to see this? MR. OSSORIO: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So he's got -- he's covered now, which -- MR. JOSLIN: This is a policy directly through you? I mean, you pay the premium on it, or is it done through a payroll company? MR. JOHNSON: The payroll company. Staff Leasing, AAA something, Staff Leasing. MR. JOSLIN: So this is a certificate that Staff Leasing furnishes you to your employees -- MR. JOHNSON: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: -- when you are on their payroll and you are going through them as a payroll entity? MR. JOHNSON: Well, they issue the checks and everything, yes, to the employees. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's got an employee roster here attached to the policy. MR. L YKOS: Let's not lose track of three important issues. One is this is the second citation. So this is not the first time that this has come up. Second point is even though this is a difficult situation, you still put your employees and your clients at risk. The third point is that there are ways to be able to operate without workers' compensation insurance, and that's to be workers' compo exempt. MR. JOHNSON: I am, yes. MR. L YKOS: I understand. So even though workers' compo insurance can be difficult to obtain, you can still operate a business without it if you have to. The fact that you operated with employees Page 40 August 20, 2008 without workers' compo under these circumstances means that you chose to put other people at risk and you didn't choose other options that would allow you to operate within the law. MR. JOHNSON: I'm sorry. If! could ask you, what other options are you speaking of? I mean -- MR. L YKOS: Well, you operate without employees or the employees that you have become part owners of the company. What's the -- Michael, you can have three -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ten percent. MR. OSSORIO: There's a couple things. Tree service contracting is considered non-construction. So if you have three employees and you're not cutting the tree down, that's considered non-construction. If you have three employees and you're cutting the tree down, that is construction, so therefore you would need a first employee. The other option is that you can do 10 percent ownership of the corporation. So in other words, if you have three employees, they can be 10 percent owner of the company and they can be exempt as well. So technically you can have three people exempt and three people trimming trees, so you could have up to six. I don't know where Mr. Johnson's getting that he's unable to get the insurance. I did call around and I talked to a lot of tree companies in town and they said no, it's pretty reasonable, you can get tree insurance these days. Two or three years ago, it probably wasn't -- it was very difficult. Tree insurance is typically very expensive. The code is 0106 insurance and that is a big issue with these tree contractors, because they want to make sure these tree companies and landscapers are in the right category. And I'll give you an example, that a couple of years ago we heard a case, Tropical Tree, before you got here, for workers' compo violation. You fined them and penalized them. They got insurance. Three years later somebody died on their job site. They called and Page 41 August 20, 2008 they thanked us for doing this, because if they did not get the insurance, the homeowner would have been at risk and the company would have been at risk. So the employee was covered. We take tree service contracting and workers' compo very seriously because that is a job that is very dangerous. People die from that. And Mr. Johnson has been issued a citation before for working without it. He had six employees on a job site, put the homeowner at risk. And just imagine that Mr. Johnson did get -- there was an issue where somebody got harmed and the county, somebody found out that the county, we issued a citation and yeah, he didn't have any insurance and we did nothing about it. So there's a liability issue for the county -- MR. NEALE: If I can bring up a point. We are in hearing mode, and Mr. Ossorio is offering testimony and he wasn't sworn. And, you know, the -- you are only to decide on evidence presented here at this hearing on this particular case. So while what Mr. Ossorio said may be interesting, unless -- and it is purely hearsay. So while it may be interesting and a good point he made, the board would be well advised to only consider it as being hearsay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which we can accept. MR. NEALE: But not as the sole evidence. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, no, not as the sole evidence. MR. NEALE: It can be brought in as additional testimony. But at least ifMr. Ossorio is going to testify, he should be sworn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me get you sworn in. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead. MR. OSSORIO: No, I'm finished. I just want to make the -- you're absolutely right, Mr. Neale. I did ramble a little bit. Page 42 August 20, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are both these tickets paid? MR. JOHNSON: The citation from February '07 was paid. There was no citation issued in this circumstance. Because of the previous citation, I scheduled it to come before the board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. What is -- I'm kind of -- I'm really leap frogging forward here, because you've admitted to it and we're not following the same procedure as before. Let me ask some questions. I'll come back to you, we're not finished with you. What is the recommendation of the county? MR. JACKSON: I think what the board needs to bear in mind is consistency and being consistent with previous violations of the same caliber. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which means what? MR. JACKSON: I believe previous decisions were probationary period, retesting. I recall the last two fines, I believe, were $3,000 and $4,000. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: There is also a class in workers' compo And we do -- the CBIA puts a class out for workers' comp., and it was one of the things that he would have to take a class in workers' comp., take the business procedure test again, probation, and pay a civil penalty of $3,000 and $250 for investigation costs. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And didn't we have -- of course we grandfathered in every tree trimmer. But if they came before the board or they relicensed, they had to take those arbor classes; is that right? MR. OSSORIO: Well, he is-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Remember that? MR. NEALE: I remember that, but I don't know whether that was ever formally adopted. That was something that they wanted everybody to take, the certified arborist courses, but I believe this board did not require that, nor did the county in the redo of the Page 43 August 20, 2008 ordinance require that. MR. JOSLIN: I think we grandfathered them in on that situation, but -- MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, we did. If you had a tree license you were -- Mr. Johnson is grandfathered in for taking the exam. Ifhe let his license lapse for 13 months, he would take the tree exam. But I don't think we're here to talk about his tree trimming ability. I mean, I'm sure he knows how to trim a tree, he's been doing it for a long period of time. It's just the business part of it. So no, I don't recommend him taking the arborist exam, which if it was a new license, he would have to. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Gotcha, okay. Mr. Johnson? MR. JOHNSON: I just want to say, you know, I know I wasn't supposed to be working without it, of course, but it wasn't like -- I mean, you know, saying that I wasn't trying that hard to get it, you couldn't even imagine how hard I tried to get workmen's compo for two years. And that's why these -- I brought these letters in. So I mean, you could call Jeff Campbell with Oswald Tripp to see how hard -- and the companies he listed here that he tried. No one would do it. I mean, I -- you wouldn't believe the amount of days and nights stressed out trying to get workmen's compo It wasn't like oh, well, I don't have it, I don't need it attitude. No, I wanted it. I needed it. It wasn't like you said, just wanting it, I knew I needed it. But no one would issue it. I mean, no one. Until I found this lady recently. And she told me that if I'd approached her two months ago, she wouldn't have done it. Ian, what was our conversation in your office? I asked you, I'm like, how am I supposed to get something that's not offered to me? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The thing of it is, that doesn't take state laws and put them on hold. Page 44 August 20, 2008 MR. JOHNSON: No, I understand. I'm just saying, it wasn't that I wasn't wanting to, you know, thinking I had to have it, of course I knew it was important. But at the same time, to be perfectly honest with you, in didn't work, I would be sleeping in a ditch. You know, I've got to pay my house payment, I've got to eat. MR. JOSLIN: With six people on the job? MR. JOHNSON: With me by myself doing trees like Ian saw us do, you have to have trained people. You can't just bring in somebody that don't know what they're doing, then you're being irresponsible and putting people in danger. MR. L YKOS: Well, you put people in danger by not having workers' compensation insurance. MR. JOHNSON: I understand. I understand that. I mean, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying as for bringing in people -- like I could have got people from Staff Leasing, you know, that didn't know anything, that could rake, and put them on the job site saying they were covered, even though they wasn't covered in trees. But it would have been dangerous. I wouldn't do that to somebody because they wouldn't know what they were doing. They'd be at risk. And I understand what you're saying that without it you're at risk, of course. But with somebody that is not trained, they couldn't do it. I mean, they'd cut their hand off with a chain saw even just starting up a chain saw, besides a tree falling on them. They've got to be trained. MR. L YKOS: As license holders, we have an obligation to the community and the people we serve, and there are no excuses for abandoning that obligation. MR. JOHNSON: No, I understand that perfectly. I'm not disagreeing with that -- MR. L YKOS: Obviously you don't understand that. Obviously you don't understand that obligation. MR. JOHNSON: The only thing I'm stating is that believe me, I Page 45 August 20, 2008 tried and tried and tried to get it my very best with everybody possible, calling companies. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, and we've -- you've really, you've stated that very well, and we don't need to keep pounding that. We've heard it five or six times, okay? Enough. MR. JOSLIN: The fact that -- the fact does remain, though, is that -- my point blank question to you is that you were and you did have men on the job without workmen's compensation insurance, correct? MR. JOHNSON: Yes, I did. MR. JOSLIN: That's all I wanted to hear. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: County have anything else to present? MR. JACKSON: I have nothing else. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have anything else new to present? MR. JOHNSON: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a motion to close public hearing? MR. JOSLIN: Motion to close public hearing, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? MR. L YKOS: Second, Lykos. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Okay, gentlemen, you can sit down. First thing out of the bat is basically I just -- I need a motion. I Page 46 August 20, 2008 mean, he admitted to -- he was guilty of it, we're not even questioning that. But for the legalese of the procedure. MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that in the Case No. 2008-12, Board of Collier County Commissioners versus David L. Johnson, that he be found -- Mr. Johnson be found guilty -- I'm sorry, of d/b/a Johnson's Tree Service and Stump Grinding, Inc., also be found guilty on Count 1,4.1.6, disregards or violates in the performance of his contracting business in Collier County any of the building safety, health, insurance or workmen's compensation laws of the State of Florida or ordinances of this county. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MR. L YKOS: Second, Lykos. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? MR. JOSLIN: He's pretty well admitted that he is guilty of the charge. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, one thing I wish we could do for whoever the new chairman is going to be is to eliminate the need to read this legalese every time. You do an order and your order states every bit of this. Why can't we make your order as part of the minutes? Page 47 August 20, 2008 MR. NEALE: We could do that, I guess. I mean, what -- the important things is that, you know, the ordinance itself does say that the order is to be issued from the dais, from the board. But if the board issues the fact that it has, you know, found them guilty and has, through its deliberations, found certain sanctions and has operated under procedure, I think what the board could probably do is reference the normal form of order as being -- as being met, and then just read the specifics as to that case. I would think that would be okay. Mr. Zachary, you? MR. ZACHARY: I think I agree if you reference-- MR. NEALE: Yeah, the normal form. MR. ZACHARY: -- the normal form of the order. MR. NEALE: Yeah, because -- I think it's important, because there are a lot of elements to this order that need to be brought into the record in that the proper service was made and that the decision was made solely based on the testimony brought here at the hearing, that they were present, that they did not represent -- and those kinds of things are the normal findings in the order. So I think we could probably come up with a short form where the board would say, you know, the chair of the board, and would be adopted by the board, that the elements of the standard order of this board are hereby incorporated and adopted similar to the way the board incorporates and adopts the administrative complaint. I think if they incorporated and adopted that order, we could probably do that. But let me and Mr. Zachary work on a little language between -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So as far as today is concerned-- MR. NEALE: I think if you said, you know, that the board hereby incorporates and adopts the standard form of order and thereby finds him guilty and then we still do the second phase, the penalty phase and then do the third phase, the state recommendations, I think all three of those, as long as they're done independently as independent findings, I think that's okay. Page 48 August 20, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And I'll wait and do it all at one time. Okay, we found him guilty. The request of the county, just to review, was $250 investigative costs, attend a workers' compo class. I heard a range of fines, and then I heard a probationary period. Obviously, I mean, we're not going to take the man's license away. MR. NEALE: Let me do a couple of things, Mr.-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I forgot. Excuse me, you're right. MR. NEALE: Just so that this is all according to Hoyle is the -- you know, the board's found the respondent in violation of Collier County ordinance, has to decide on the sanctions to be imposed. They're set out in Section 22-203(B)(1) of the ordinance. And the sanctions that may be imposed by this board are: Revocation of the Certificate of Competency; suspension of the Certificate of Competency; denial of issuance or renewal of Certificate of Competency; a probation of reasonable length not to exceed two years, during which the contractor's activity shall be under the supervision of the contractor licensing board; and/or participation in a duly accredited program of continuing education. Probation may be revoked for cause by the board at a hearing noticed to consider said purpose. Restitution, as proven in this hearing: A fine not to exceed $10,000 per violation, a public reprimand, a reexamination requirement, denial of the issuance of permits or requiring issuance of permits with conditions, and reasonable legal and investigative costs. In imposing these sanctions the contractor licensing board shall consider the gravity of the violation, the impact of the violation on the community, any actions taken by the violator to correct that violation, any previous violations committed, and any other evidence presented at this hearing by the parties relevant to the sanction that's appropriate. And just for the board's reference, there was a recent case that Page 49 August 20, 2008 you did decide in a similar type manner as was previously cited to. This was in the case of Collier County versus Ronald J. Ryan, Case 2008-09 in which the respondent had not -- did not have workers' comp., and the sanctions imposed at that were a fine of $4,000, a one-year period of probation, retesting on business and law and successful completion of the examination, successful completion of examination on the workers' compensation laws of the State of Florida, and then for that particular one because of some extenuating circumstances, the respondent was going to have to call contractor licensing staff to advise them in advance of any contracting activity. But I don't think there's been evidence to that matter presented in this case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. JOSLIN: Also, I think this is still underway with discussion, right? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: I'm not really content. I mean, there's no doubt the man's guilty of what he did. But along with the ideas that we're going to impose here, I want to see something happen in the fact of having a payroll company, which is what he's presented here as far as for his workmen's compo now. At any given moment that payroll company -- he could lose his employees, not have his employees or the payroll company could be history and then he wouldn't have coverage because they could not issue the coverage. So he could go and hire some people off the street again and start all over again. So I'd like to see this insurance certificate updated monthly, each month, per month, on a month-to-month basis for a period of time, a year. Payroll companies are kind of strange when it comes to maintaining people on their payroll. They don't reach a certain amount of payroll or he doesn't present them enough money in his business, Page 50 August 20, 2008 then they can drop the coverage on him. MR. HERRIMAN: You can even make it tighter than that, because basically this is a weekly work compo policy and as long as he pays his payroll weekly, then the policy is in effect. So you can contact the insurance company and request that if he does not meet his payroll requirements weekly, that the -- somebody be contacted. Then I would suggest Michael Ossorio's department. MR. JOSLIN: But you'd be putting that certificate in the hands of the carrier, and I don't know if that would fly or not. That would be more or less his responsibility to have it sent to make sure that he's aware he has to have it. If we put it into the hands of the carrier to automatically send it like what you're saying, then the -- MR. HERRIMAN: Yeah, the carrier would automatically notify you ifhe didn't have worker's compo coverage. MR. JOSLIN: That would be placing though this whole avenue of blame or the whole avenue of making sure he has it on the carriers. Because he could come back and say, well, the carrier didn't send it; I had it but they didn't send it. And it would put somebody in the middle rather than himself right on top. Don't you think? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. Because I do the same thing with my larger contractors. They have a clause in there that my carrier will notify them directly if my coverage ceases for any reason. MR. L YKOS: Typically it's within 10 days of cancellation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, within 10 days of cancellation they're notified. MR. L YKOS: You can actually have that added right to the policy, right to the certificate. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. I'm just trying to protect that part of the interest as far as -- his future, one of the criterias of this -- MR. L YKOS: Is there a way that we can get -- I don't know if this is possible to do as part of our decision, but can't individuals get a policy that's done based on a six-month term or a one-year term versus Page 51 August 20, 2008 weekly? I don't like the idea of having it tied to payroll. I understand your point. If -- he could have -- he could just say I have no payroll this week and pay people under the table and then we're back to the same situation, he's just skirted the whole system. If he has to buy a six-month policy or a one-year policy, then the policy is in effect until the policy expires, because it will have to be paid for in advance. MR. JOSLIN: I'd rather see that happen too, but I'm not sure we can enforce that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's what he can't buy. The only way you can get insurance is through employee leasing. We don't need anything, I'll handle it. And that's the only policy he can get. It's tied to payroll. Now where they have all their problems with fraud on employee leasing is non-reporting of employees, non-reporting of payroll. So if he does that, then he has committed fraud, which is a violation of state law and you'll get the state workers' compensation people in on it. And you don't want them. You think the county's hard to get along with, you haven't lived till you dealt with those people. They come in and flash their badges and they will lock your office down and take all your records. They have -- I'm saying this, you're hearing me. Don't get the state workers' compo people involved, it's a miserable nightmare. But Ian and them are going to be watching this. And you can go out -- and he has this, this is on a computer, right? MR. JACKSON: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you can go out to the job and ask people their names. And you know right then and there if they're covered by insurance, correct? MR. JACKSON: If! show up to ajob and our records show that they're covered through an employee leasing company, I will get the names of the people working and cross-reference it with the employee Page 52 August 20, 2008 leasing company list of employees. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's not that difficult. MR. HERRIMAN: And it's through a local office. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And if you commit fraud, then look out, here comes the state. Because you notify the state; do you not? MR. JACKSON: At that point I do not. Take this case, for instance, I scheduled it to come here and let the board make their determination. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, because you know what we would do. MR. JACKSON: I have a good idea. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Okay, I think we're okay, but I'm not worried about it ifhe turns in his payroll, and the county's going to be checking that. I wish you could buy a policy, but he can't buy one. MR. HERRIMAN: That's his problem, yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Do I hear a motion? MR. JOSLIN: I'll make the motion that -- beings that we have found David L. Johnson guilty of Count one, that the penalty be imposed of: Required to pay administrative costs of -- what is the amount? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 250. MR. JOSLIN: $250. He be fined $4,000 to be paid within 90 days. He be required to attend a continuing education class under the workmen's compo only and provide at least two hours of credit. He be required to retake the business and law -- I'm sorry, the business and law exam and pass it within a six-month period. And any future business that's performed by this company will need to be verified with insurance from the payroll company on at least a monthly basis. Page 53 August 20, 2008 And he be placed on a one-year probationary period during this time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MR. L YKOS: Second, Lykos. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I just -- I'm the one that made the sound. I thought the $4,000 fine was a little heavy. MR. JOSLIN: I disagree, only because he's been caught once last year and he's done it again. Finding an insurance company, he's found one here, and he could have found one before. He could have killed somebody with a stump grinder, and he could have killed somebody. MR. GUITE': Plus ifhe's not paying his workmen's comp., he could probably afford the 4,000. MR. JOSLIN: Exactly. MR. L YKOS: Yeah, how much would workers' comp have cost him over the year-and-a-half? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know what the rate is on this kind of work per 100. MR. OSSORIO: I heard it was 17. It has gone down. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's not bad. MR. L YKOS: No, that's pretty cheap. I thought it would be double that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He could be roofer or a steel erector. MR. JOSLIN: With as many hurricanes as we have coming, he'll have plenty of work. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't say that. MR. HERRIMAN: I think in view of the fact that he tried so hard with Oswald and Tripp and the other insurance agent that he worked with, he at least demonstrated a -- his desire to get the insurance and then he finally found it. I agree he's guilty. I think the fine is too heavy. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I concur. Page 54 August 20, 2008 MR. JOSLIN: What's the pleasure of the board? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, we've got a motion and a second. We have to deal with it. MR. HERRIMAN: I would suggest you either change it to a $1,000 fine or we continue the vote. MR. JOSLIN: I'll amend the motion to read-- MR. JERULLE: Excuse me for a second. I think the case that we had at the last board meeting, Mr. Neale, was two counts of $2,000. MR. NEALE: There were two $2,000 counts on that one, yes. MR. JERULLE: So I think we've set a precedent of one count of guilty of $2,000. So I would suggest that we think about $2,000 instead of the four. MR. JOSLIN: Right, that's what I was going to back it down to. I'll amend the motion to state instead of being a $4,000 fine it be reduced to $2,000. MR. L YKOS: I approve that amendment to the motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. LYKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me do the legalese here. Case No. 2008-12, license number N as in Nora, B as in Baker, R as in Romeo, 30172, which is Board of Collier County Page 55 August 20, 2008 Commissioners versus David L. Johnson, d/b/a Johnson Tree Services and Stump Grinding, Incorporated, administrative complaint as normally stipulated -- MR. NEALE: Incorporated and adopted. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Count one, disregards or violates in the performance of his contracting business in Collier County in the building, safety, health and insurance or workers' compensation, specifically workers' compensation laws of the State of Florida, ordinances of the county, came before the board. Service was done by certified mail, Mr. Ossorio? MR. JACKSON: Service was hand delivered. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Service was hand delivered. Mr. Johnson was here, was not represented by an attorney. By a vote of9-0 (sic) he was found guilty of the charge. Order of the board by also a unanimous vote was $250 investigation cost to be paid to the county immediately, $2,000 fine to be paid -- what's our normal procedure on time? MR. NEALE: It's 90 days. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Within 90 days. Attend a worker's compensation class of at least two hours. MR. JOSLIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Attend business and law -- take the business and law test again. MR. L YKOS: And pass it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And pass, successfully pass within six months, was that what you said? MR. JOSLIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And a one-year probation. MR. NEALE: And monthly insurance verification. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Monthly insurance verification and cancellation notice. His certificate will be addressed a cancellation notice within 10 days to the county, as well as monthly verification of Page 56 August 20, 2008 msurance. That cover it? MR. L YKOS: Small item. We have eight members today and not nine. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Eight, okay, thank you. 8-0. Everything else is stipulated to the order that will be prepared by Mr. Neale. MR. JOSLIN: One last comment, I suppose. We better -- if any of these items are not completed in the time spans that were given, then his license is immediately suspended. MR. NEALE: I would recommend that he comes back to the board for review. MR. JOSLIN: And have to come back before the board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, he would violate the order of board so he would automatically come back, wouldn't he? Mr. Johnson, come back up if you would, please, sir. Sir, we did not take your license away, we only put you on probation, hit you with a fine and some investigation costs. And you do have to take a couple of classes. You're still in business. Keep everything clean, keep your insurance in line and everybody's going to be fine. MR. JOHNSON: Can I say one more thing? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. JOHNSON: I just don't want you guys to think that I didn't want insurance. I mean, if you look at my liability, I'm only required to have 300,000 liability. I have two million. You know, it's not that I was trying to get away with not having anything. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I understand. MR. JOSLIN: We understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I understand. But basically it comes down to this: If you can't get workers' compensation insurance, you have to shut down. That's what it comes down to. Because I literally Page 57 August 20, 2008 have seen people totally destroyed by a worker getting hurt. MR. JOHNSON: But to think that, you know, I'll change employees or try to get out of paying it, I want it. It's not that I don't want it. Believe me, I want it. Not for this, for work. So to think that I'm going to all of a sudden duck it and try to get out of it again, that was never my intention to begin with. I've always wanted it. So that's not even an issue unless the company goes out of business. Not my company, the staffing company. Then at least now I know I can go to Crum. But neither one was available before. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. We wish you well, sir. MR. JOHNSON: Thank you. Can I get my copy back of that? That's my copy of it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Right here. Do you really need it? MR. NEALE: That was in evidence? MR. JACKSON: That was entered into evidence. MR. NEALE: So we're going to have to make a copy and get it back to him, I think. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let us make you a copy of it. I'll give it to Ossorio, or Ian. We've got a copy in the commissioners' office, can't we? MR. JOHNSON: You guys already have a copy of it. MR. JACKSON: We do have a copy in the office. MR. NEALE: Yeah, we have to have that in the records. It has to be copied for the record. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you get -- this is not marked. Yeah, it is. Can you give him -- will his copy suffice? Give him your copy, will you? MR. JACKSON: Certainly. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Do you have that with you now? MR. JACKSON: Not right now. It's in the file at the office. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We'll get it to you tomorrow, is that Page 58 August 20, 2008 okay? MR. JOHNSON: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: Or if you want to wait a second, maybe we're going to take a short break here before the thing -- maybe you can get a copy in the other office for him. MR. JACKSON: We're not bringing the files to the hearings any longer. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Make a copy of this -- MR. JOSLIN: No, I'm talking this -- MR. JACKSON: Oh, make a copy of that? Sure, I can do that. MR. JOSLIN: While we're on break. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hold on. Why don't we take a 10-minute recess before we go into that other one. And hold it to 10 minutes, okay. (Short recess.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, call back to order the meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board. Next case -- got everybody? Yeah, we do. Paul Riddleberger, d/b/a Riddleberger Custom Homes. Paul, are you here? Yes, sir, if I could have you come up to the podium. I've got everybody sworn in now except Paul. We don't have to do it case by case. State your name, Paul, and I'll have you sworn in. MR. RIDDLEBERGER: Paul Riddleberger. (Speakers were duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning, sir, how are you? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Were you here for the other case so you kind of get a feel for how it goes? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Ian, I'll go ahead and start with Page 59 August 20, 2008 you with an opening statement. MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, actually, in may interrupt quickly, if we could have a motion to add another -- something under new business. There's going to be someone coming in to qualify a second entity if so approved by the board. We wanted to get that over with before this started. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have they been sitting here all this time? MR. JACKSON: They have. Mistakenly they've been sitting here, with the understanding that it was going to be heard next month. If it would please the board, we could get it over with today. MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion that we -- I'll make a motion to amend the original agenda to add -- MR. JACKSON: His name is Russell Page. MR. JOSLIN: Russell Page to the agenda under new business. MR. JACKSON: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Paul, in can get you to sit down for just a second, sir. I apologize. Russell Page, are you present? MR. JACKSON: They are not here right now. We were going to do that after this hearing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm sorry, I thought it was these people sitting here. MR. JACKSON: I apologize, I should have been more clear. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right, come. Paul, I'm just totally confused, so ignore me. We're ready to roll. I'm looking for my packet. Go ahead, Ian. MR. JACKSON: First of all, I would like to enter the packet you've received into evidence, please. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I so move. MR. L YKOS: Second, Lykos. Page 60 August 20, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Done. Go ahead. MR. JACKSON: This case involves a contract between Mr. Riddleberger and homeowners Tracy and Dori Crowell for the construction of a single-family house. Construction began, got to a certain point, and due to a licensing issue was no longer able to continue. Therefore, both parties met and agreed that the contract would be terminated. At the termination of the contract, there was an understanding that the homeowners have -- what was constructed up to that point and what was constructed was built to plans and would meet building codes. On the other hand, there was in the understanding Mr. Riddleberger was paid what he was paid and no more payment was going to be given to Mr. Riddleberger. Basically the contract was terminated and they were going to go their separate ways. It turns out that some of the construction was not built to plans and would not have met the building code and not passed inspection. Therefore, homeowners had to pay more money than they had the understanding at the termination of the contract to have the house built up to plans and specifications. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've got a question before we go any further. Ifhe's building a home, why is his license number NBR-29660? What kind of license is that? Page 61 August 20, 2008 MR. JACKSON: The 29660 is his Collier County certificate number. He's a Collier County registered residential contractor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, so he holds a state license. MR. JACKSON: He registers with the state. MR. JOSLIN: Doesn't he have a state registered license? MR. JACKSON: He's licensed through Collier County. MR. OSSORIO: He's state registered, not state certified. MR. JOSLIN: He still has a number, though, doesn't he? Our number, our P number? No? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: RR0067680. MR. JOSLIN: What is it again? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: RR0067680. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I was thinking all builders had to have a state license. MR. NEALE: State registered but not certified. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Now the question also I'm going to bring up before we get into this, he quit because of licensing issues. Does the man still have a license today? MR. JACKSON: Today, ifI'm not mistaken, he's on hold with the county pending state registration. MR. NEALE: Yeah, Mr. Dickson, he needs to be able to make his opening statement before we start any questioning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ifhe didn't have a license, I was going to question why we went any further. Okay, I'm aware of -- yeah, so that's all your opening statement? MR. JACKSON: I'm going to leave that at my opening statement, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Riddleberger, would you like to make an opening statement, sir? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: This is a very complicated issue. To clarify the status with my license, I was required to change from an individual workmen's compo exempt entity and become a corporation Page 62 August 20, 2008 to maintain my workmen's compensation exemption status. That was why the licensing issue came up. I was in the process of doing that. I can't really speak to the issue of the construction because I don't know any of the details. I don't have any idea what they found in error or flawed or required to be removed and replaced. Collier County never made a framing inspection, so that was the basis of -- the wording of the contract was subject to county approval, and that was never done. And they brought Mr. Wu in to make his recommendations, and that's really as far as I really know at this point. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. All right, Mr. Jackson, it's your case, if you'd like to present it. MR. JACKSON: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you going to be calling witnesses? MR. JACKSON: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Riddleberger, as he calls the witnesses, if I could have you -- just sit right there on the front row if you would, sir. MR. JACKSON: I'd like to call Mr. and Mrs. Crowell, Dori and Tracy Crowell, the homeowners first, please. (Speakers were duly sworn.) MR. JACKSON: You were in contract with Mr. Riddleberger for the construction of your home in King's Lake? MR. CROWELL: That is correct. MR. JACKSON: And at the point where you both had decided to terminate the contract, there was an understanding that Mr. Riddleberger was not going to be paid anymore and what was built would pass building code and was built to plans and specifications. MR. CROWELL: That is correct. MR. JACKSON: I don't have any more questions. If the board has questions for them. MR. JOSLIN: What was the reason for the termination or for Page 63 August 20, 2008 him stopping the construction? MR. JACKSON: Due to the Collier County certificate being on hold, due to the state registration pending. MR. JOSLIN: Pending. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you remember, it was a year ago or two years ago they made that a state law that all exempt contractors had to be a corporation. And any exempt employees could no longer be an employee, they had to be an officer of that corporation and hold at least 10 percent of the stock. So all of them had to do that. MR. L YKOS: Why would that stop somebody from being able to work? I don't understand. I mean, I remember when that happened. I remember a lot of our subcontractors went through that process. Why would somebody have to stop the jobs they were on? That just doesn't make sense. I mean, maybe that's how government works, but it doesn't make sense. If you're in the middle of a contract for building a house and this law gets passed and you have to move from one business entity to another, you have to terminate all your contracts? That doesn't make sense. Could somebody explain that better? MR. JOSLIN: There probably should have been or is a reasonable amount of time to make this change, because it's nothing more than filing a corporation and changing it over and changing all your business entities over to that corporate name. And then he could file for the exemption so he would still be legal. But I'm not understanding. Maybe there's a time span here where it didn't happen. MR. JACKSON: I'll take a shot at it. If I'm not mistaken, and maybe Mr. Ossorio can help clarify, Mr. Riddleberger -- his original license was canceled. A new Collier County certificate was issued, which was then put on hold. We're talking about a brand new license that was put on hold, pending the state registration. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, because Michael, wasn't it they Page 64 August 20, 2008 had something like six months and there was a cut-off period? And after that cut-off period it had to be new applications? Do you remember any of this, Mr. Neale or Zachary? MR. NEALE: Yeah, but I think the relevant point is we need -- it really doesn't matter what it was for everybody in the state, it matters what happened in this case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So, in other words -- MR. NEALE: And what happened and why. So historical perspective is interesting, but it doesn't have any bearing on this case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, Mr. Riddleberger, do you have any questions of these people at this time? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that all you have for them? MR. JACKSON: That's all I have for them, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. MR. CROWELL: Thank you. MR. JACKSON: At this point I'd like to ask Mr. Wu and Mr. Brunoli to testify. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Both together or-- MR. JACKSON: Ifpossible, both together. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Gentlemen, if each of you would state your name and then I'll have you sworn in, please. MR. BRUNOLI: Fred Brunoli. MR. WU: Richard Wu. (Speakers were duly sworn.) MR. JOSLIN: If I could just quickly ask, what capacity are these two gentlemen testifying to or -- expert witness or -- MR. JACKSON: Mr. Brunoli is a representative of the new builder who has taken over the project, and Mr. Wu is the architect who has been working originally with Mr. Riddleberger and with the homeowners on the project. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. Page 65 August 20, 2008 MR. JACKSON: The homeowners have had to pay a documented -- bear with me -- a documented $26,111 to rebuild framing and second floor framing and trusses that were not built according to plans. And I'm going to ask Mr. Brunoli and Mr. Wu to describe the deficiencies in the construction that resulted in the demolition and rebuilding of this. MR. WU: Richard Wu. I'm the design architect for this residence. It's a design build situation. I was working with Mr. Riddleberger on behalf of his clients, the Crowells. My contract was to prepare the plans and specifications and certification for building permit. And they're in the process of the construction. At some point our office was given a call and we were told that Mr. Riddleberger was no longer the contractor on this house and if I could go out and take a look at the building and see what -- progress of the work and give my opinion on the condition of the construction. At that time I sent one of my associates to meet with Mrs. Crowell, and she walked the premises, spent quite a bit of time going through it at that point in time. I believe at that time there was quite a bit of time elapsed from the time the work that had previously been done and to the time I was notified of the situation. Therefore, at that time there was a lot of deterioration due to weather of the materials. For instance, there was a second floor deck that was plywooded and the plywood was starting to be laminating -- things like that. Weather. There were trusses on the ground that were affected by weather. I drove by the project. I did not personally inspect everything, but that's what -- I did have a conference with Mr. Brunoli after he got involved and we discussed different issues. MR. JOSLIN: So your contract that you had with the Page 66 August 20, 2008 homeowners -- your contract was through the homeowners? MR. WU: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: In relation to then Mr. Riddleberger also. MR. WU: Right. MR. JOSLIN: But you designed the home-- MR. WU: Initially, yes, initially. MR. JOSLIN: At any point were you supposed to do any type of inspections to verify that your building drawings or whatever you have architect (sic) or drew out was performed correctly as stages went along, or not? MR. WU: No. MR. L YKOS: Did you meet with the homeowners or with Mr. Riddleberger prior to the termination of the contract? MR. WU: No. MR. L YKOS: Did you inspect the site prior to the termination of the contract? MR. WU: No, I did not. I was made aware of it after the termination. MR. L YKOS: How much time -- to your knowledge, how much time went by from when the contract was terminated to when you inspected the site? MR. WU: I would just be guessing. I would say a month or so. I don't really -- I can't speak to that specifically. MR. L YKOS: I would like -- if we can figure that out, I'd like to know that information. MR. JOSLIN: Yeah. In this inspection -- one last thing. In this inspection you mentioned that on the second floor it appeared that the plywood was weathered or had been obviously sitting for a while without being under wraps or under cover from the roof? MR. WU: Right, there was no protection of any of the work that was in place. I don't know what the length of time was, but there was Page 67 August 20, 2008 definitely some deterioration of the work that was in place. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you going to ask Mr. Brunoli any MR. JACKSON: I'll ask Mr. Brunoli basically the same question. With your dealings since you entered the contract with Mr. and Mrs. Crowell, if you could describe in detail the deficiencies in the construction and why it had to be demolished and rebuilt. MR. BRUNOLI: Certainly. In November of'07, Mr. and Mrs. Crowell had contacted me and our company to possibly rebuild the house and take over the construction. My partner and I both surveyed the property prior to submitting them a contract. At that time there was extensive deterioration of whatever product had been installed. I mean, they -- at that time the house had been brought to block and beam, and the initial structural framing had been started. The structural framing had been left in somewhat of a disarray. A lot of the product that was up was not protected. There was extensive deterioration of plywood, mildew content and rotting of some of the areas of the trusses, especially the trusses that were still laying on the ground. The site itself was extremely in disarray and it was almost totally overgrown with brush and trees. And I really, even to this point I don't know exactly how long it was prior to us starting work. We started work on the project in January after we contracted with them. Based on our analysis and my discussions with Mr. Wu, we felt that there was no possible way that we could save the materials that were -- had already been put in place. There were -- during our inspection, prior to contracting with them, we had noticed that there were discrepancies in the standard building codes for Collier County. Page 68 August 20, 2008 Certainly we knew that at that time that it hadn't been inspected, the framing inspection hadn't been completed, but there were still deficiencies in the framing. Even two minor deficiencies in structural framing of the -- it would be the northeastern wall of the house, which was supposed to be built out of block and beam and it was now framed out of two- by-sixes. And the framing was -- head heights for windows and doors were at 72 inches, which there's nobody going to walk through a 72-inch high door. So there were other issues regarding the stairs and locations and things like that, but technically that's -- most of the things that we noticed was -- were deterioration, lack of proper coverage of materials, and some of the structural framing was -- certainly it hadn't been inspected, and hopefully they would have made those adjustments prior to inspection, but at the time that we took it over, it would have not passed inspection. MR. JOSLIN: Was the house under roof at this time or just block and tie-beam? MR. BRUNOLI: It's -- the house is a -- it's like a split design. The left side of the house is a two-story with two bedrooms over the family room. And the right side of the house would be the family room and the garage area. There were trusses installed through the whole first level. Some of the plywood was installed. A lot of the strapping was not installed. There was warpage in the trusses. And then the second level, they had installed the floor trusses and then they proceeded to install some of the deck plywood and some of the -- they had erected some of the exterior walls for the second level with all the plywood on it. And all that had also deteriorated because it just was never protected with any type of felt or any type of protective material. MR. JOSLIN: So in essence what you're saying is that the house was basically kind of pieced together in different phases but really Page 69 August 20, 2008 nothing was really completed to dry the house in? MR. BRUNOLI: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What is the name of your company? MR. BRUNOLI: It's Amo Construction, Hurricane Homes of Southwest Florida. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And what was the contract amount for you to finish the house? MR. BRUNOLI: The contract amount was 268,800. That included all the demolition and removal and cleanup of all the debris that was still on-site. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is the house completed today? MR. BRUNOLI: We are going through our final inspections right now for a final C.O. So we're -- within two weeks we will hopefully have a Certificate of Occupancy. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any change orders to that amount? MR. BRUNOLI: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does that include the pool and the deck? MR. BRUNOLI: It includes the deck, not the pool. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because that wasn't included in the original contract. MR. BRUNOLI: It was never included in our contract, no. MR. JOSLIN: Is there a pool there? MR. BRUNOLI: No. I thought you meant the original contract by the previous contractor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, the previous contractor didn't include deck or pool. MR. BRUNOLI: No, we included the deck and no pool. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Rough idea of how much is the deck? MR. BRUNOLI: It's the rear lanai deck, which is under cover, so I can only estimate the cost of the deck would probably be around $3,000. Page 70 August 20, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Slab or -- okay, yeah. That's all I have. MR. JACKSON: If I may? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. JACKSON: I think we want to focus to the point where the contract was terminated, and from there on is irrelevant to the case. MR. JOSLIN: We're just trying to get like a time line here is what we're trying to get, because there's been a stoppage and a startage, and we're just trying to narrow down on how many months it sat before it started and -- I mean, that's all we're trying to do, I believe. MR. GUITE': My figure is I got seven months total. A lot can happen in seven months. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I would personally like for you to call the Crowells back up here. I want to know how long this house was abandoned. MR. JACKSON: Okay. If! may ask Mr. Brunoli two more questions? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sure, go ahead. MR. JACKSON: Mr. Brunoli, in your expert opinion or in your opinion, was the house built to plans and specs and would it have passed inspection had it gotten to that point? MR. BRUNOLI: There were some issues in what I had surveyed on the house that it certainly wouldn't have passed inspection. Was it built as per plans and specs? No. I'd have to say no, it wasn't. MR. JACKSON: If the construction of the house continued and if it were a new home, would that aspect of the construction have to be removed? MR. BRUNOLI: Yes. A contractor would have had to make some alterations or improvements to bring the house as per plans and specifications. Otherwise, submitting some sort of a letter of transmittal or revision would be the only alternative to that. Page 71 August 20, 2008 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. That's all I have. MR. L YKOS: Who prepared the handwritten list of items that needed to be corrected or work that needed to be done on the house? MR. WU: I believe that the handwritten list you're talking about was done by my employee. MR. L YKOS: Okay. Some of the things I read in here were obvious construction defects, if you will. Other things appeared to be items that were change order type items. Is there a dollar amount allocated to the construction defects? Not deteriorated lumber, not change order items, but is there a list, a specific list of items that were done incorrectly that were variations from the plans that were not built to code, and is there a dollar amount applied to that list of items? MR. WU: I was not hired to come up with the specific items. Maybe Mr. Brunoli can answer that. MR. JACKSON: Mr. Lykos, if! may, E.ll is -- it may not be quite as itemized as you're requesting, but that is the itemized statement with the attached dollar amount. MR. L YKOS: I understand. But based on the testimony today, there were comments about framing materials that were left on the ground that deteriorated, and I would have just liked to have seen a list that was specific. Now, it does say demolition and removal of existing wood framing due to deficiency in construction. So that specifically states deficiency. But I'm a little bit concerned that there's no separation between the deficiency of construction and what that means and things that were deteriorated, how much work was required based on deterioration and how much material was required based on deterioration that had nothing to do with a construction defect. I don't know that -- I mean, four items on this list doesn't give me the kind of definition I'd like to see, based on what's been Page 72 August 20, 2008 described as what the condition of the house was. MR. JOSLIN: And then for the action that was action that was taken to have to tear it down, or gut it, basically, right? MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry, deterioration of construction materials on the ground is not really the issue of the complaint. MR. L YKOS: I understand. But there was plywood that got deteriorated because it wasn't covered and protected, there was framing materials that got deteriorated because it wasn't covered and protected. And I don't know that that's not already included in this number. MR. JACKSON: Understood. MR. L YKOS: Okay, so that's my question. It may not be, but I'd like to see verification that it isn't included in this number. And if it is included, and then I want to see it separated out. MR. JACKSON: Understood. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Riddleberger, do you want to ask either of these gentlemen questions at this time? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: I want to ask Mr. Wu a question. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to have you come over here to this podium. Ian, if you'll give that up for a minute. MR. JACKSON: Certainly. MR. RIDDLEBERGER: This is speaking directly to my personal integrity as both an individual and a builder, and I wanted to ask Mr. Wu one simple question, and that is: How long have you and I been doing business together, going back to the very first duplexes we built in Golden Gate? MR. WU: Quite a number of years. MR. RIDDLEBERGER: It's been almost 10 years. And at any time when you've been doing plans have I ever walked off, abandoned or come to you and said, Mr. Wu, I'm in trouble, I've done something terribly wrong or anything like this ever? MR. WU: No, it hasn't. And that's why I was quite surprised Page 73 August 20, 2008 when I heard about this -- MR. RIDDLE BERGER: I just want to be sure that that is not any kind of pattern in my business or my relationship with people in this community. MR. WU: I agree. MR. JOSLIN: I have one question for you, Mr. Riddleberger, before you leave. At any point when this was all going on, did you contact Mr. Wu to come in and do a physical inspection of his plans versus what was built? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: No. MR. JOSLIN: Why? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: I didn't see the reason or need for it, because my knowledge ofthis job is very thorough, and to my knowledge there was very little discrepancy from what the plans were to what was built. So I didn't see a reason why I would have to ask Mr. Wu, can you come in and -- I've made this change, can you verify that it's okay. I know at one point I went to Mr. Wu because we made a change and amended the plans to change the masonry wall to a wood framing, which Mr. Brunoli brought up that wasn't according to the plans, but in fact it was according to the plans because we amended the original plans to change from a block masonry wall to a wood frame wall. MR. JOSLIN: Were these ever submitted to the county? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Wu, are you an engineer? MR. WU: Architect. MR. JOSLIN: Architect, not an engineer. MR. WU: No. MR. JOSLIN: That's all. MR. L YKOS: I'm sorry, Mr. Riddleberger, if you could step back again. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, go ahead. Page 74 August 20, 2008 MR. L YKOS: It says in our packet that you had an agreement with the owner that you were paid for what was done. What did you represent to the owners that was done? I heard that it sounds like the building wasn't dried in, and I understand that it wasn't. But was your agreement at termination, did you represent to the owners -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to hold you on that one, and I'm going to tell you not to answer the question, because we're completely out of sequence here. Do you have any other questions for the witnesses? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then I would ask for you to sit down. You can ask that question later when he presents his case. MR. L YKOS: Okay, sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ian, come back up. Are you finished with the witnesses? MR. JACKSON: With Mr. Brunoli and Mr. Wu, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, gentleman. MR. JACKSON: I would like to have the Crowells come up again, please. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. JACKSON: Roughly when was the contract terminated with Mr. Riddleberger? Month, year. MR. CROWELL: In August of2007. MR. JACKSON: August of'07. And when was it apparent that there were deficiencies in the construction that would have to be demolished and rebuilt? MR. CROWELL: We actually went around trying to find somebody to take over the job, which was not an easy process. And everybody that actually would give us any type of estimate -- now, they didn't go through the steps of getting an architect involved, but they did -- everybody said that it had to be demolished and started Page 75 August 20, 2008 over because it was obvious of rotting and everything else that had happened in the time frame where we finally agreed with Mr. Brunoli to take over the job. And we originally talked to Mr. Brunoli -- was it in October, hon? I believe -- and it was November that they finally looked at them. MRS. CROWELL: In November, Mr. Wu's associate had come out and written the notes regarding some of the -- he met with Fred. And that was November 16th of'07. But we had spoke with them prior to the notes being written. MR. JACKSON: Approximately three months? MRS. CROWELL: Yes. MR. CROWELL: We also had to get extra money from Fifth/Third, which wasn't an easy process at that time either, because we were going through everything going down in value and, you know, everything was based off of 2006 numbers. So we were going around trying to get money to complete the house at the time also. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give me a feel. Talk candidly with me. I mean, I can't see all this deteriorating this bad in three or four months. When did he stop work? What was the discussions like? MR. CROWELL: We do have that in May was the last time that we actually see Mr. Riddleberger on the job. MR. JERULLE: Can I ask a question along with yours? I'm a little confused. When did you sign the contract? MR. CROWELL: With Mr. Riddleberger? MR. JERULLE: Yes. MR. CROWELL: We started-- MRS. CROWELL: March 17, '06. MR. JERULLE: It says in the documentation here that the signed contract was in January of'06. And then it says that the construction began in November of '06. MRS. CROWELL: The property needed to be cleared. Page 76 August 20, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That what? I didn't hear you. MRS. CROWELL: The property needed to be cleared. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It took 10 months to clear the property? MR. JERULLE: No, January of '06 is when it says that the contract was signed. MRS. CROWELL: Right. And then we did our final construction loan closing March 17. So at the beginning of March we were able to have funds to do the home. MR. JERULLE: I'm sorry to interrupt. So January, you signed the contract, March you started the work. MR. CROWELL: Correct. That's when we closed with Fifth/Third, sir, to start the process. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And so he -- MR. L YKOS: Construction began in November. MR. JERULLE: No, I think that's a mistake, that's why I was asking. MR. CROWELL: Construction with Arno Construction started in November of'07. MRS. CROWELL: '06 was Mr. Riddleberger. MR. JOSLIN: That's where we're at, Mr. Riddleberger, isn't it? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: We're looking for the first contract, right? MR. LYKOS: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Whoa, whoa, whoa, stop. Contract January of '06. He started March of '06. He shut down MRS. CROWELL: August of'07. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, he shut down May of'07. So what you're telling me is this partial framing took a year to do? MR. CROWELL: We've been through a long process, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This is -- I mean, this is like crazy. Page 77 August 20, 2008 MR. L YKOS: Construction started November of '06, not March of'06. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: When did it start? MR. CROWELL: March of'06 is when we closed for it to start. MR. L YKOS: When did construction -- according to our documents, construction started November of 2006. MRS. CROWELL: That is when we had a slab poured. MR. CROWELL: Was it November of2006? MRS. CROWELL: It was early December. We had just gotten married, remember? MR. JOSLIN: The permit was issued on 9/15 of'06. That's when the permit was issued. So November makes sense. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. So it took us five -- or seven or eight months to get to the partial framing. MR. CROWELL: Correct. Sorry about that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, in May of'07, did he call you or did he just pull off the job or what -- give me the dialogue. I'm trying -- we're not up to speed with you guys. I need to get up to speed. MR. CROWELL: I understand, sir. We would do quite a few telephone calls and quite a few e-mails to Mr. Riddleberger with no response. And then when he finally would, he'd show up and maybe do a day or two of work and then would disappear again. To our knowledge, he also does things out of the state. And basically our conversation on the last -- when we agreed to part ways because we had to, he seemed to think that it was in everybody's best interest that that happened also. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, and you had paid him how much up to that point? MR. CROWELL: I don't re -- I'm going to have to look it up, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just use -- yeah. MR. CROWELL: How much in draws were taken at that time? Page 78 August 20, 2008 Is that what you're looking for, how much in draws had been taken at that time? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm thinking it's -- because I'm looking at your original complaint here, and there's a lot in this -- you've got us confused is what's happening. And I'm looking at the original complaint and it says you paid out $214,000 and there's 81,000 left. Who does that apply to? MR. CROWELL: Well, we had the property included in that; is that correct, hon? The property amount was also included in that original 214. MR. HERRIMAN: Which is how much? MR. CROWELL: It was 150, I believe. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So I take 150 away from 214 and that's what you paid Mr. Riddleberger? MR. JOSLIN: $64,000. MR. CROWELL: That is around the right number, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: $64,000. Okay. Now, when he decided it would be in everyone's best interest for him to leave, did you guys agree with this? Did you have an inspection? Did you have a meeting of the minds? What happened? MR. CROWELL: We had a meeting at our house, and sir, this is our first run at this so there is a lot of ignorance to play. We at that time knew that there was problems and nothing was happening, things were sitting out in the hot summer sun. We knew we had to go find a builder. And, you know, with both of us being fully employed, we ran around as much as we could trying to find -- and it was unbelievable the bids that were being given to us over the amount to complete -- to tear down what was up and then complete the construction. Honestly, I believe that the job was probably underbid to begin with. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, but you're almost in it. Hopefully you're not upside down. Page 79 August 20, 2008 MR. CROWELL: We're almost in it. It's been a long two years, SIr. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I have a question, if you'd -- I don't think you asked -- the chairman asked you a question: When you sat down with him, what was discussed? You were assuming that everything you've given or he's given you, you accepted, and you thought everything was up to code, that was -- MR. CROWELL: We thought everything was up to code. We assumed everything was the way it should be at that time -- MR. OSSORIO: So in good faith, after that meeting with Riddleberger you went out to seek other builders and that's when you found out with these deficiences, these code violations. MR. CROWELL: Yes, that was -- MR. OSSORIO: That's what we're talking -- that's what the chairman asked. MR. JOSLIN: When did that meeting happen? MR. CROWELL: In August of2007. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the house had been sitting for four months, or three. And then it sat another four. I bet this was quite an eyesore. MR. CROWELL: We had gotten quite a bit from the community, sir, yes, sir. MR. L YKOS: Did you have any written agreement at your termination of the contract? Was there anything written between you and Mr. Riddleberger? MR. CROWELL: No, sir, no. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How much more has the house cost you? MR. CROWELL: I can tell you exactly what we had to get from Fifth/Third, and then also obviously we've been paying along the way every month, the interest only. But we had to get another 123,000 from Fifth/Third to complete the project. And also what we've been Page 80 August 20, 2008 paying in interest along the way. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Crowell, just bear with me, but when you sat on that meeting in the meetings of the minds, you knew you were going to pay more money to get the job done, because you had some change orders, there were some things you were going to do differently. MR. CROWELL: There were a few modifications, yes. MR. OSSORIO: So the question is is that you're out $60,000, and you assumed that you had $60,000 on the project. MR. CROWELL: That is correct, sir. MR. OSSORIO: So that's where we are today. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody have any other questions? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to let you call them back up when you present your case, okay? Is that everything, Ian? MR. JACKSON: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. Ifwe could ask you to have a seat. MR. CROWELL: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Mr. Riddleberger, if you would come over here to this mic. I hate to play musical chairs with you. And if you would present your case, SIr. MR. RIDDLEBERGER: The case is really almost indefensible. It's saying that the road to perdition is paved with good intentions, and I don't think that's any more clear than in this situation, because some of the details that didn't come out was that this contract was not underbid. I'm able to build things at a substantially lower rate because I don't have an office downtown and multiple trucks on the road. I'm a very small enterprise. We forced this contract to be signed early because we were Page 81 August 20, 2008 facing a deadline with the impact fee increase, as we all remember. This house was going to go from 136 -- or 176,000, almost $40,000 more overnight. IfMr. Wu would remember, I actually met him when he was coming back from a trip to get a final authorization on the very last day at 4:00 p.m. to get this permit application in before the deadline for the impact fees. From that point, you know, we were all -- I felt like I was always chasing my tail, because we really didn't take the proper steps that I would have normally taken because of the time constraints. Jump forward to the licensing issue which, as Mr. Ossorio mentioned, it really doesn't do us any well to detail. But I suffered long over this termination of this contract. I can tell you that. I know Tracy and Dori, I've known them for a long time. And when I went to their house, I was probably more nervous then than I am now, because I had to say to them that I just can't continue with this contract. It's just not going to work out because of my licensing problem. I wasn't even allowed to really even be on the job. I was issued a citation because my license was actually inactive and I was practicing contracting in Collier County. I paid my fine, but it was understood at that time that I could not be on this job site until my license was straightened out. So at that point I had no choice. I mean, my hands were tied. I went out myself and tried to find contractors who would at least give me a decent bid to get this house under roof. It was a really bad situation. And I'm not making excuses for myself, I made some bad judgment errors. MR. JOSLIN: From the time that you pulled the permit on this house to start construction, how many months was it before his license was suspended or he was put on hold, I suppose? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: It was actually in transition when we signed the contract. Page 82 August 20, 2008 MR. JOSLIN: In January of'06? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: Yes. I had submitted a package to the state for the incorporation process and it came back to me and I made some changes, sent it back to the state, and at that point it was lost. MR. JOSLIN: How was it that he was able to pull a permit in September then of '06? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: It was under owner/builder. We had no choice, we had to go under owner/builder in order to get in under the impact fees. So that was how we got around that. And we did play with the law a little bit, but at the time it was -- again, hindsight's 20/20, but, you know, at the time it seemed like the only solution was to file as an owner/builder and that would get the application in and get it processed before the impact fees came into effect. MR. JOSLIN: I'm having a little hard time understanding why it would take eight months, nine months from the time that you had to redo your license to when you actually could have pulled the permit in September. It took this long for you to get your license changed over to a corporation? MR. RIDDLEBERGER: The actual time line, I don't recall what it was. MR. NEALE: Mr. Dickson, if I may -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can I have you sit down for just a second. MR. NEALE: What I would suggest is we take a brief recess and allow the legal minds and maybe the Chair to have a discussion with county on this case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I know what you -- I heard the same thing you did. MR. NEALE: Ifwe could do that? Because I think we may-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ifwe could have a two-minute break and if you gentlemen would come up here. Page 83 August 20, 2008 We're off the record. (Short recess.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to call-- yeah, we're back on. I'd like to call the meeting back to order. After discussion with counsel for both -- counsel from the licensing board and counsel for the county, we are going to table this case until next month's meeting. MR. NEALE: Just continue it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just discontinue it-- MR. NEALE: No, continue it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I mean, we will continue it next month. But we need some additional information between now and then. Let me ask you this: At this point, Mr. Neale and Mr. Zachary, do we need witnesses back? MR. NEALE: Well, I think that's totally up to the -- up to both the respondent and to the county, and they can advise their respective witnesses as to whether they require them back here again next month. I think that's totally the purview of the parties. But I would suggest that probably since the board is going to have some additional questions, that the witnesses be advised that they probably should be ready to come back. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I can see the questions coming. I apologize for doing this, but it is in the best interest of all of you, upon legal advice. These guys have done a wonderful job of keeping us out of trouble for a long time. So when they bring up an issue, we listen. So we're going to just continue it next month. And I apologize for the inconvenience, but it can't be avoided. Okay? Is there anything else to come before the board? New reports? MR. JOSLIN: New business? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. Page 84 August 20, 2008 MR. JOSLIN: Russel Page. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I missed a page? MR. JOSLIN: Kyle Green -- the new one-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, we did Kyle Green, didn't we? MR. L YKOS: Russell Page, the one we added, Russell Page, the second entity. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, yes, Russell Page. Where are you? MR. PAGE: May I approach? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There you are. Hang on just a minute, though. But come on up, come on up. Mr. Page, you are here to qualify a second entity? MR. PAGE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Jackson, what specifically are we looking at? What's at issue? MR. JACKSON: The issue is Mr. Page qualifying the second entity, which always has to come before the board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, but there's always something in question, Mr. Page. Is it the credit, is it your affidavits, is it the way you part your hair? MR. NEALE: No, second entities just have to come before the board, no matter what. This one is -- there doesn't have to be any question. They have to come here anyway. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's right. I'm so confused on the last case. Get my head back together. Okay, right now you qualify who? MR. PAGE: Ambassador Kitchens. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I didn't even have you sworn. Why don't we just go crazy here, okay? (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, you want to qualify Solid Surface Tops of Southwest Florida. Page 85 August 20, 2008 MR. PAGE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that correct? MR. PAGE: That is correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you presently qualify-- MR. PAGE: Ambassador Kitchens. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which is the letterhead on the front page. MR. PAGE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I know I've seen you around town at least a million times, but -- MR. PAGE: Only in the right parts of town, I hope. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm sure. As clean a life as I live, that has to be true. Why are you doing this? MR. PAGE: In 2002 we incorporated Solid Surface Tops. You know, I'm 50 percent owner in that company. So I already have my license here in Collier County, have for many years. Ambassador Kitchens was incorporated in 1991. So, you know, I needed to start a nonprofitable organization, so I got in the top business. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I'm sure everyone appreciates your tithe. MR. JOSLIN: And your donations. MR. PAGE: Well, over the years I can honestly say that we've challenged -- we've been a little more than challenged on the tops side of things. Cabinet company's done very well, but we're hanging in there. It's been a tough last 12 months, but we're doing -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm surprised you would want to get in the tops. I see how many of them don't fit or they're a little bit off, and what a nightmare. MR. PAGE: Well, we had to because of the damage of the product, you know, that some of the other companies were causing Page 86 August 20, 2008 indirectly to our cabinets. So we had obviously a number of builders that, you know, it was an issue where damage was occurring, and the only way to protect our cabinets that made economic sense for the builders and us, ultimately the end-user customer, without any additional cost to the job was to get into something and, you know, we capitalized the company. We've got our own V -grooving machines and whatnot, which are state-of-the-art equipment for Corian. And then later made the decision just here in the last year, last few months, to get into granite, which we've already had our bridge saw set up and operational for that. And Charlotte and Lee County is going well. We, you know, don't have enough business up there to keep us going, so we're looking for Collier County to help chip in, you know, hopefully on the top side of things. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You pay your bills. MR. PAGE: Yes, sir, pay our bills. Net 210, everything. Have for years. So I don't remember what the credit report was, but it should be pretty good. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Gentlemen, be sure and leave these on top of the counter here so the county can take this and shred it, with the bank records involved. We don't take these out of this room. I make a motion we approve it. MR. BOYD: Second, Boyd. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. LYKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. Page 87 August 20, 2008 MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. You're done. MR. PAGE: Thank you, gentlemen. You all have a great day. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know if you were here before, but all your stuffs here. So go see Maggie tomorrow. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, we have one other housekeeping. I want to introduce you to Jennifer Blanco. She's a new customer service agent. But she's actually the person in charge now in licensing. She's in charge of the day-to-day operation of intake, outtake, whatever you need, this is the person you need to talk to. And her name is Jennifer Blanco. Jennifer, stand up. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hi Jennifer. MR. L YKOS: Welcome, Jennifer. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is it Blanco? MS. BLANCO: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I saw you notarized a bunch of this stuff. MS. BLANCO: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is she in your office? MR. OSSORIO: She is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's right, because the blonde-headed girl, she went somewhere. MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, Colleen Davidson, she moved on to another position, and we have Jennifer Blanco, which is a fair trade. But she's going to be responsible for anything in the office pertaining to paperwork issues. So actually it's going to be good news for us. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Has the absolute nightmare started at Page 88 August 20, 2008 your office yet? MR. OSSORIO: We are. We're about one-third or close to halfway done. We're doing state registrations now this month. Next week we're doing renewals for county. So we're going to be pretty busy with about 10,000 contractors. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You guys want to see a line, go by their office. MR. JOSLIN: I got mine done already. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It is a zoo. Thrilled to have you. MR. OSSORIO: With Tropical Storm Fay, I don't think the Governor signed any order referencing letting builders or general contractors do reroofs yet, so we haven't got that information. I looked on the web page yesterday and -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll turn them in ifthey do. MR. OSSORIO: So right now we're on track as status quo. I don't think we need to relax any of the tree contractors or let roofers come in. So we're on the same page. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There's enough unemployed people here that have licenses and insurance to handle it all. MR. OSSORIO: Okay, that's it, that's all. MR. L YKOS: How's Mr. Dunn treating you guys? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dunn's doing a great job. He's a building official, he's my boss, and whatever he wants we do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Dunn is permanent now? That's been a couple of months, right? MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, it's been several months. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. What a great individual if you ever need anything. He's one of the best we've had in a long time. They're really getting some good people. Mr. Neale, Mr. Zachary, anything? MR. NEALE: That's it. Page 89 August 20, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's it? MR. HORN: Do we need to hold on to these cases or give them back to the county? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give every one of them back. He said he would give us a new one for that one. MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, just give everything back. It's not a big deal. We can make the 50 -- I know you probably put some doodles on there and whatever. And we'll make fresh ones for you so you don't have to worry -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, you're talking about, yeah, Riddleberger, yes. MR. JOSLIN: The doodles? MR. NEALE: If I may just caution the board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Listen to Mr. Neale. MR. JOSLIN: I got mine all doodled up. MR. NEALE: If I can caution the board, just one thing for good order's sake in that we have a pending case that is in the midst of being continued, is that the board members should not speak to each other about this case between now and the next meeting. So please abide by that. Don't have any discussions amongst you on the Riddleberger case, because that will be coming back before you again next month. MR. L YKOS: What about our notes? We're going to lose our notes. MR. OSSORIO: If you want to keep the packet, you can. I can't guarantee you that you're going to get them back because I don't know anyone's handwriting. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll keep it. MR. NEALE: I would suggest as least as to the Riddleberger case and any notes that you may have taken regarding that, to keep those documents with you. MR. OSSORIO: I will make -- you can keep the exhibit for the Page 90 August 20, 2008 case, but I will also make a fresh one so just in case you didn't bring it for next month you have it here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Next meeting is when? MR. LYKOS: 17th. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: September 17th. Anybody know they're not going to be here? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good, I won't have to bring anyone up to speed. Who are we lacking, one? We're still lacking one consumer, right? MR. OSSORIO: There's one consumer in the City of Naples. And I know that I've talked to Sue Filson, and they are doing their best to coordinate with the City of Naples getting a consumer. So they're still working on it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ann's back in town by now. Come on back, Ann. Do I hear a motion to adjourn? MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second. All those in favor? Goodbye. MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. Page 91 August 20, 2008 ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11:51 a.m. COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON, Chairman These minutes approved by the Board on as presented or as corrected TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. BY CHERIE' NOTTINGHAM Page 92 ._.___'"......_o___._..._'~_.m.__._'<._____.,__........,__