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CCPC Minutes 07/09/2008 LDC Meeting Notes July 9, 2008 LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION "MEETING NOTES" Naples, Florida July 9, 2008 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Planning Commission, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 5:05 p.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Mark Strain Lindy Adelstein (Absent) Donna Reed-Caron Tor Kolflat (Absent) Paul Midney (Absent) Bob Murray Brad Schiffer Robert Vigliotti (Absent) ALSO PRESENT: Heidi Ashton-Cicko, Assistant County Attorney Joseph Schmitt, CDES Administrator Catherine Fabacher, Planning Manager Page 1 July 9, 2008 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Good evening, everyone. Welcome to the Wednesday, July 9th meeting of the Collier County Planning Commission. Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond our control, we don't have a quorum tonight. And kind of fortunate that we didn't have a reason to take action tonight, because this is going to be an introductory meeting as to the new layout of the Land Development Code and how the expert we have is going to merge the new code -- merge the old code into a new one. So in that regard, those members of the planning commission I just spoke to who weren't here to see if they were able to make it in, for certain reasons they have to be at home, maybe they will catch it on television. But it will allow us to proceed, we just won't be taking any official action tonight. So we'll still conduct it like a regular meeting. We have a court reporter here for the minutes, so let's rise for pledge of allegiance, please. (Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Ms. Caron, if you'll call the roll. COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Kolflat is absent. Mr. Schiffer? COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Present. COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Midney is absent. Ms. Caron is here. Mr. Strain? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Here. COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Adelstein is absent. Mr. Murray? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: He is here. COMMISSIONER CARON: And Mr. Vigliotti and Mr. Wolfley are absent. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Most of the -- some of the planning commissioners notified us that they wouldn't be able to make Page 2 July 9, 2008 it tonight. Obviously they're excused absences. I did call some of the others, Mr. Wolfley and Mr. Vigliotti. They both had issues at home they had to attend to, so they have excused absences as well. And with that, let's move on to the next item on the agenda, which is the addenda to the agenda. Since it's only one issue tonight and it's a non-voting issue, we'll move right into that. Our next meeting -- by the way, I did want to mention to the planning commission, I guess I'll have to re-mention it on the 17th. We have a meeting scheduled on the 21 st of this month in the evening for the floodplain management proposed ordinance. It turns out that the work of the committee that was putting it together is not yet complete. Mr. Wiley asked if we could move that to September 8th, which is a -- I don't remember what night of the week it is. But I'll take a look right now. MS. ISTENES: Monday. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It's a Monday night? It would be a Monday night on September 8th at 5:05. I'll bring this up again on the 17th. So just as a heads up to those of you that are here or are watching, we'll ask to make sure there's a quorum when we reconvene on the 17th. With that, let's move right into the process for tonight. And I guess Ms. Murray, you're going to start? Mrs. Istenes. Sorry. MS. ISTENES: Yes, good evening. Susan Istenes, I'm the zoning director, for the record. I want to do three things tonight, just kind of giving you a little bit of an overview of what we're going to be doing. I wanted to introduce our contract attorney, Mr. Mark White. I'll give you a very brief summary of Mark's role here with us tonight, and he's going to expand upon that in a presentation. And then I'll just give a brief outline on your role and responsibilities tonight, as supplemented by the Chairman, of course. Page 3 July 9,2008 As a way of background and as you already know, but for the benefit of the listening public, the Department of Zoning and Land Development Review is responsible for maintenance and interpretation of the Land Development Code, which implements the county's Growth Management Plan. In February of 2007, our request for a proposal was issued with the purpose and intent of obtaining proposals from interested and qualified firms offering services from land use attorneys for review of the Collier County Land Development Code. Specifically, the tasks identified in the request for a proposal were to review sections of the Land Development Code that needed to be updated, clarified or amended, and to separate administrative procedures of the code from the development regulations and to update outdated portions of the existing code. The goals were to create a more user friendly code through enhanced understanding by simplifying language, by making a more compact and concise code, and by separating the operative provisions of the code from the regulatory provisions. And on September 11 th, 2007 the Board of County Commissioners approved the contract with the firm of White and Smith, LLC. Mark White, who is sitting here, is a partner with White and Smith, LLC, which is a national planning and law firm with offices in Kansas City and in Charleston. Mr. White is recognized as an expert in zoning and subdivision law, land use and taking litigation, housing, development of comprehensive growth management plans and implementation systems. He has represented clients at every level from city, state and local governments, as well as major private developers, many of whom are involved in environmental permitting proceedings and takings litigation. Mr. White received his Bachelor of Arts degree magna cum laude in history and political science from Bethany College in Page 4 July 9, 2008 Lindsborg, Kansas and holds a Juris Doctor and Master of Regional Planning from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. While in law school, Mr. White was a research editor for the North Carolina Journal of International Law and Commercial Regulation, and worked at the Department of City and Regional Planning as a research assistant in the center of urban and regional studies. He is the former president of the board of directors of the nonprofit community development group Westside Housing Organization, and is a member of the North Carolina and Missouri Bars, the American Institute of Certified Planners, and the American Planning Association. In addition, Mr. White has published a variety of notable articles -- although this first one is actually a book, I wouldn't call it an article; it's pretty darn thick. And it's new. And it's called A 21st Century Land Development Code, published in 2008. Development Codes For Built-Out Communities, an article published in Zoning News of August, 2006, Unified Development Codes, published in Municipal Lawyer, August of 2006, and a variety of other articles. Mr. White is also a frequent speaker at the national meetings of the American Planning Association, the Southwestern Legal Foundation, and various other professional organizations. His emphasis is the development and drafting of effective land development regulations for local governments, including facilitation, code drafting, form base codes and smart growth strategies. Represented as clients include: Charlotte-Mecklenberg County, North Carolina, Fort Smith, Arkansas, Hillsboro County, Florida, Prince George's County, Maryland, San Antonio, Texas, St. Petersburg, Florida, and Washington D.C., among many others. With that, and before Mark gets started, because he has a nice presentation to give to you and kind of give you an overview of what he's going to be doing, I wanted to just give you a little bit brief history about why we're here tonight with Mark and where we're Page 5 July 9, 2008 gomg. And this has been several years in the making. Past workshops held with the BCC identified key areas of the LDC to be revised. And this has been done over a number of years, specifically our landscaping provisions and our architectural provisions. And then if you recall, of course we did the major recodification in 2004, which essentially just comprehensively reorganized the Land Development Code, and it was adopted via Ordinance 04-41, which is the present form of the code today. Whether you may deem that recodification a success or not, nevertheless we are here tonight to begin the second and third phases of this LDC update. And the third phase being the creation of the content of the Administrative Code, which Mark will discuss with you briefly, and the second phase being the continuation of the rewrite of independent sections of the LDC. And tonight specifically you are here to look over the proposed changes to the nonconforming sections of the LDC, specifically Section 104.04. Those changes include a reorganization clarification and a minimal rewrite of the nonconforming section, and include changes in verb tense sentence structure, elimination of redundant wording, rearrangement of content and similar grammatical improvements. Also included is a reorganization of requirements of nonconforming residences into an explanatory table. That is what you have been given as an overview for tonight's meeting. And Mr. Chairman, certainly fill in where I'm leaving out, but you will not be voting tonight. Our primary objective is to introduce you to Mark, to have him describe what he is working on and how he has organized the proposed changes and why. Different from what we typically do, we are simply asking for your attention and general impressions related to the process or the methodology, as we will not be conducting the usual page-by-page Page 6 July 9, 2008 review of this document tonight. This document will, however, return to you for a final vote at a later hearing. Mark will not be at that hearing, so tonight's your opportunity to ask any direct questions of Mark that you may have. But in the interim, if you do notice any scriveners errors or omissions when reviewing this document, we simply ask that you would e-mail those individually to Catherine and she will look over them and make any necessary corrections outside of this meeting. With that, Mr. Chairman, if you don't have anything else to add, I'd like to go ahead and-- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Two points. One is, Brian, you're also here because you have something to say usually, and you're concerned about an issue. As you can see, we don't have a quorum. Rather than have you sit here all night to discover we're not going to take any action, I thought I'd just let you know that we won't be getting into many nuts and bolts discussions on anything tonight. It's going to be a very cursory introduction, and then we're going to adjourn a meeting that doesn't occur, because we're not official, and go home. So you can sit and watch us do that if you want, and it's up to you, but we won't be getting into any of the stuff that I know you normally attend meetings for. MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I wanted you to be aware of that. MR. MACKENZIE: Yeah, I appreciate that. Can I just ask one question? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Sure, go right ahead. I need for you to speak -- Brian MacKenzie, for the record. MR. MACKENZIE: Yeah, Brian MacKenzie. I'm here on behalf of Collier Resource Company, oil and gas, minerals for the Collier family and Collier County. And the Chairman was right, I'm always here about oil and gas. And I did add into the schedule tonight that we were reviewing the Page 7 July 9, 2008 Cycle 1 amendments. And yes, I had an issue. So I've written it all up. And I'll -- and I had spoken briefly with Steve Linberger about it. I'm going to forward those to him. And I have extra copies and I can e-mail them to you. And I guess we'll come back on the 30th to discuss. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I don't remember the dates. But whatever dates we have listed for our next meeting -- this meeting I don't even think can be officially continued, because it isn't officially open. MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. MS. FABACHER: We can advise you of when that will be heard, the environmental. MR. MACKENZIE: All right, I appreciate it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: The best way you can distribute stuff is to really e-mail it to the staff person in charge. I think in this case it would be Catherine. And she would distribute it to the planning commission. That way it gets on record and gets distributed to everybody without question. MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. All right, perfect. I appreciate it. Thank you. MS. F ABACHER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: You're welcome. And as a follow-up to Susan's comments for tonight, obviously as everyone knows, without a quorum it doesn't do us a lot of good to go through all the verbiage issues we may have. And I made notes like probably most of us did about very -- little bit of words here and there, but we'll get into those at another meeting. So tonight's going to be purely introductory. If you have a conceptual problem with the layout of what's being presented tonight, this is the time to bring it up while Mr. White's here. And then he'll come back to us during our next meeting or meeting thereafter and we'll start chewing on it at that point. So Mark, it's all yours. Page 8 July 9, 2008 COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Mark, let me get -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN : Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: One thing Susan said is that we're not going to go our page-by-page, which we seem to do good. But she said that the next time we'll see her it will be final. That's not really true. We'll go page-by-page in the future. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Absolutely we'll go, yes. Weare going to have the opportunity to go through every issue of the LDC change page-by-page like we always do. But tonight it would be ineffective for numbers of reasons now tonight. So-- MR. WHITE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you members of the planning commission for having me here. And I look forward to the discussion. Thank you, Susan, for the introduction. I'm going to skip over my bio, because I think she presented it. This thing on the right is the cover of the model Land Development Code that we recently published with AP A. It was quite a big piece of work. And I can tell you over the years working for a lot of different communities around the country we've learned a lot about the different things that tend to come up when you're rewriting a code. And even when you're not trying to change substance you can get into and run into a lot of different issues. So we look forward to the challenge, and I look forward to helping you come up with a better document that works for the county. What I'm going to talk about tonight are three major things: First of all, it's our approach to taking this document and making it more usable and user friendly, not only for you all but for the general public. I'm going to talk briefly about the nonconformity section, the green book, as Catherine calls it that you have in front of you. And so when she asks you about the green book now you'll know that she's not talking about the AASHTO Arterial Road Design Manual, she's talking about that. Page 9 July 9, 2008 And then I'm going to talk about administrative handbook. And I understand you're a very quiet group of people who never has anything to say, so we'll probably have a very brief period of comments. But if you can think of anything, I'm sure you'll let me know. So I look forward to the discussion. As Susan mentioned, our goal is basically to take the documents you have and to make them more user friendly. I mean, that in a nutshell is what we're doing. We're trying to take the regulations you have and make them more coherent, where we can, make them simpler, to come up with a more logical flow internal to the document, to make it more usable by the different types of people who tend to use the Land Development Code here in Collier County. And of course by law we have to maintain and update the comprehensive plan. Chapter 163 of the Florida Statutes creates a very substantial body of law that generates a lot of work for the planning commission and the county commission on a year-to-year basis. So we hope that by simplifying things we can minimize at least a big part of that and take out a lot of the things that are fixing -- bad cross references and stuff that just doesn't work anymore, and to come up with a more workable code. There will of course be things that are required by law. I know there's a sign code update that's going on right now because of a recent lawsuit. That's a separate process. So there will be things like that. But we hope to simplify the code. And in the process hopefully make your jobs easier over time. This is a three-legged stool that begins with organizing what we're going to do. And I'm going to talk about the Administrative Code later on because it has a big impact on the organizational content of the code. Then there's a lot of work. It's just a lot of lock yourself in a dungeon and get away from as many people as you can and just sit down and write. I mean, it's just a lot of grunt work rewriting the code. But it's a necessary task. Page 10 July 9, 2008 But that's what we're going to have to do. We're going to have to tackle just how the code is written. And I'm going to talk about those principles later on. But that's the big part of what we're doing. And then finally, and this is the step I'm not usually involved in, but I think it will be a big part of what we ultimately do, is the code has to be published. In the old days it was just printed out. Nowadays we have the Internet. And the codes on a national codifier municode.com, and that creates a lot of issues that I'll discuss in more detail later. But, you know, what we do with the rewrite here can have some implications and some ways to make how the code gets into people's hands and on the people's laptops a much easier process. So those are the three things we're working on. So what is a development code? You know, the most important thing about a code and what makes the code different from the -- in most states different from a plan here in Florida -- because a plan is law too, which makes it a different animal from states like Missouri where I live where you don't even have to have a written plan. But what's different between this and maybe a pamphlet or something like that is that it's a law. If you do something that the code says you can't do, you can get prosecuted and there are legal consequences. So that dictates how the code is written. The -- it has both substantive and procedural rules. It dictates how projects are designed and it dictates the procedures for getting the permits that a property owner needs to proceed with development. It mediates between the plan and what happens. A lot of times the code updates -- I've had -- will have a significant public process because there's a lot of policy issues that have to be made. I mean we're talking about as we go through the process, we're coming up with rules that can be more or less strict. And so we have to work out a lot of things with the regulated community, the development community and the neighborhoods. And there's a lot of resistence to different aspects of Page 11 July 9, 2008 the plan. What we're doing here is principally taking the substance of the code already in bodies and trying to make it more user friendly. So we don't have that type of process that involves mediating among different stakeholders. Although there will be things different stakeholders look for in the development code. It's a dictionary. It defines a lot of terms that don't come up in your typical cocktail party conversation, like nonconformities that need to be defined specifically in the context of land development. It bridges the planned policies and what happens on the ground. So this is the legal document that makes a comprehensive plan in a lot of ways operational. And it can also -- a lot of people think of a development code as just a bunch of you can't do this kinds of rules. But also especially important here in Florida, it can also create incentives. And the code has some of those as well. But what I think makes a development code a lot more challenging to write than let's sayan ordinance that sets a speed limit is it speaks to so many different audiences. And now I caution you all and anybody who reads the development code to keep that in mind. You're not the only person using it. If you're an applicant, if you're a neighborhood group, everybody looks for different types of information in different ways when they read a development code. There are attorneys. I'm an attorney and, you know, I look for certain things when I open up a code. There's the planners who write it. Sometimes the planners want to just make the code as glitzy and sexy as possible so they can win planning awards. But that doesn't necessarily mean it works on the ground. Some of the codes that my clients tell me they like the best are the ones where I wrote it and I went, ick. But, you know, it was easy for people to find information and it's what that community wanted. And so that's how I write development codes. I don't write Page 12 July 9, 2008 them for me, I write them for you. Neighborhood groups are a special class, because they're people who don't -- sometimes you'll have the accountant or, you know, a blue collar worker or anybody who doesn't do this on a day-to-day basis, and then they pick up this development code that I couldn't carry on the airplane because they would have charged me extra to check it in. So they've got to pick up this huge document and find information in it. And I can't imagine how challenging it is. It was hard for me to make zoning ordinances when I graduated from law school and planning school. The first one I picked up might as well have been written in Russian for all I could make of it. And I just can't imagine people who don't have to deal with this on a day-to-day basis must go through when they try to, number one, find the information they're looking for and then number two, when they find it trying to read the language and interpret it. It's very challenging. And we're trying to as part of this process make it easier for people like that. And we're not saying that they're any less intelligent than us or anything like that. It's just something that most people don't do every day. So we want to help people like that out when they use the code. There are architects and engineers and people who do use the code every day to design projects for their clients or property owners or home builders. People like that look for particular types of information in particular ways. Typically that group of stakeholders wants as much certainty as they can. But they also want flexibility. I had one developer tell me once he wanted flexible certainty. So that's what they're looking for. But I think what we can gain from this process -- and we're not here to -- we're not quite here to not (sic) change the rules as much as we can but just to make those rules easier to interpret. So I think this is a good way to make that process easier for people who build things here in Collier County without necessarily changing the rules of the game. Page 13 July 9,2008 And again, there's people who get wind of the -- the first time they use the zoning ordinance is when they hear that something's going on in their neighborhood. And again, they need to find -- they need an easy way to access the code. Typically in the year 2008 and it's going to get more and more on-line. But then there's other -- there's a lot of people out there, it always surprises me how many people there are, who still don't use the Internet. And there will have to be printed versions for them as well. And then ultimately, you know, last but not least, it's the legislators. And that includes you all. I mean you're involved in the legislative process, you're an important part of it. And the county commission, they'll end up using the code quite a bit. I wouldn't pretend to be smart enough to have the final word for the next 100 years on how development's going to proceed in Collier County. There will be changes. There will be amendments, there will be new county commissioners elected with new agendas and new ways of doing things, and that will create -- that will generate more amendments in the future. But hopefully we'll have a better system, a better organizational construct for those amendments to fit into. And we want anyone who ultimately sits in your seat, in the planning commission seat or in the county commission seat, in the future to be able to pick up and understand the development code, whether they agree with what's in it or not. And so because this is a legal document, because it's so comprehensive, it covers so much territory literally, the code is by necessity pretty long. And most zoning regulations and subdivision regulations, land development regulations are. And there's 10 major mistakes I typically see, just in terms of how they're written, that tend to make them confusing and tend to create a situation where if you go to the Collier County Public Library and ask for the Land Development Code, they'll probably point you to Page 14 July 9, 2008 the foreign language section. It's, you know, pretty daunting. One of them is a lack of integration. You find different chapters of a land development code that tell you different things about what needs to happen on a property. And it sends different signals, different messages, and that can create confusion. Codes can be overly inclusive. There are a lot of things -- there tend to be a lot of things in development codes that maybe should be codified somewhere else. I mean, one example I found here was the annual beach permits, which really isn't a land development issue or a land use issue. It's sort of a property maintenance -- more of a property maintenance type issue or something like that. Maybe it should go somewhere in the general code of laws. Codes can be disorganized. You'll find things that are codified in the wrong place. That's one thing I'll talk about specifically when we get to nonconformities in terms of how we try to rearrange things and put things in their proper place. It's kind of like defragmenting your hard drive, Mark, so that the whole system runs better, for those of you who know computers. We want to defragment this hard drive so it's an easier thing for people to use and the process proceeds better. Codes can be too fussy. Again, the standards can be so infinitely long that they get into stuff that really, nobody cares about. And that's really a policy issue. But there may be things we find as we go forward that there's pretty wide consensus that people look at a regulation and scratch their heads and they say nobody really cares about that anymore, maybe we can just get rid of it. A lot of provisions of the development code don't have an introductory language or introductory material to it. Very useful for zoning districts to have cross-references back -- especially here in Florida -- to the comprehensive plan or the growth management plan so you know why they're there. So you know why the density and intensity regulations and the design regulations are written the way they are. That can help people. Because people can be confused. Page 15 July 9, 2008 And property owners can resist when they think the standards are too strict. And a good explanation of why they're there of why they're there can help us move the water sometimes. Codes can be incomplete or sloppy or vague. Where they -- you know, you just sort of give up and you leave things out that really ought to be in there. And I would urge you -- and I'll get into code length to resist -- I know longer codes are something people resist. But you don't make anybody's life easier in the long run if you just omit things that ought to be in there. Legalese is obviously a big problem in development codes. And we'll talk about specifics, some of the specific things we see there later on. But those can make the codes difficult, very difficult reads. Sloppy drafting where cross-references are bad or said completely inconsistent things in different parts of the code can create difficulties. And then cut and paste. We want to make sure that at the end of the day this is something that works for here in Collier County. And it's good to look at what other communities are doing. That's always helpful, to find out whether something worked or not somewhere else. But ultimately at the end of the day, this medicine has to work for this patient, we're not prescribing medicine for somebody else. So it's a lot of hard work, and we don't want it to be just good enough for government work, you know, we want it to be something that's complete and thorough, very well cross-referenced. And we don't want to stop till we're done. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: You need to send that picture to Nick Casalanguida. He's one of our guys in transportation. MR. WHITE: Yeah, that was from the county transportation improvement program. No, I'm just kidding. That was a joke, that was a joke. That part of the record, that was a joke.÷ Page 16 July 9, 2008 But our first big task here is to organize. And I've had a number of initial meetings with the county staff, and especially the people who administer the code on a day-to-day basis. And, you know, I heard a lot from them, not only from their perspective. And they're the ones who are constantly in the process of trying to find information in the development code, and they hear it from people coming through the process in the county about things that frustrate them. And I understand that the county did go through the process a couple of years ago of recodifying the ordinance and reorganizing things and that -- so on and so forth. And, you know, frankly you've got 10 chapters, that's about right, in terms of modern drafting practice. Not too many, not too few. It's -- you know, the chapter structure is fine. I don't see anything about that that's necessarily broken. But there are a lot of things internal to the chapters that I think we can fix. And one principle I would suggest and one thing I find when I read development codes, long comprehensive technical documents like this, is they tend to work better, especially for the general public, if you put the important up-front. The things that people read the most, use the most, the things that people are constantly trying to find information about. And that's -- like your zoning district regulation, the density regulations, your design standards, things like that ought to be up front. Because those are the things that most stakeholders are interested in, both property owners and the applicants, because that affects how their projects are designed, it affects the cost of development. And the neighbors down the street always want to know what that project -- you know, what density that project's going to have, what uses they're going to have, that sort of thing. Those things ought to be up front. People shouldn't have to wade through 300 pages of text to get to them. I know, you know, there's three, four level tables of contents, things like that up front. The executive summaries, I usually put those up front so it's a Page 17 July 9, 2008 how to read this document, type of chapter. That can help a lot. But it also helps to put the important things up front. And then the more technical things can either go to the rear of the document or to the back. I usually put the definitions in the back. Because they tend to be -- it's just a glossary, and I think most people expect -- if they pick up a book, if they pick up anything, most people look for the definitions of the glossary in the back. So that's where we usually put them. And they're not standards, and shouldn't be. In fact, that's a common drafting mistake that people make when they write codes, is you'll find a lot of standards in the definitions, and they don't belong there. Because nobody can ever find them there except for the planner who's been here for 25 years and uses the code every day, and he'll say, oh, yeah, I know why you can't find it, it's in the definition of home occupation or something like that. Put it in the standards that apply to home occupations, not in the definition. But put the definitions in the back. Things that are technical, either put those in the rear or put those in a separate document. And we'll talk about the administrative manual later. But things like the checklist for the things you have to have to have a complete application. There's usually only two people in the entire universe who care about those: Person number one is the project engineer who's trying to fill out the application, and to get that subdivision, that preliminary subdivision platting. And they need to know what information they need. They need to check off the list to make sure they've got everything they need to have a complete application. They care about that. The person sitting behind the permit counter is going to be checking the application to make sure it's got everything. Once it goes through that process, usually nobody else really cares about it. If people who live down the street don't care about it, it's a highly technical issue. It either meets those standards or it Page 18 July 9, 2008 doesn't. The county commissioners that usually deal with higher level policy issues, or should, usually don't care about that. And those are details that really don't need to be junking up the front of the ordinance. But they have to be somewhere. I mean, you should have a checklist of information. Applicants should know what's expected of them before they go through the process. And the county should have the authority to send back an application if there's not enough information there for you to make a complete decision. If these aren't high level policy issues, they ought to be codified somewhere else. But one thing that makes this ordinance in your land development code so daunting is just the sheer size. I mean, it's a huge document. It took me a long time to get through it. And I'm going to probably have to read it four or five more times before I completely understand it. But I'm sure you all are in the same boat, you've probably had to read it multiple times just to get a handle on how this whole system works. But at the same time we don't want to leave critical things out. This is a pretty diverse county. You have fairly rural areas, you have a lot of environmentally sensitive areas that are subject not only to local laws but state laws and that sort of thing. You have some areas of the county that are fairly urban. So you have a whole range. This is a diverse county and this is going to be a very comprehensive ordinance. So I encourage you to conquer -- I made this word up, and I'm really proud of it. So bear with me for a second. I thought of Grandousliraphobia. That's the fear of large documents that everybody has. I mean, people are less likely to read a document if it's six inches thick. It's just human nature. Maybe you'd rather watch ESPN than read a large document. But you don't want to leave anything out. It's very important that the Page 19 July 9,2008 code is complete and that we don't create a nightmare for the zoning administrators and the applicants and you all in the future because we left a critical detail out of the ordinance. And we also don't want to create unintended consequences. We want to make sure we take the time to define what it is we need. But I think we can deal with the document size by first of all organizing it well, using best practices for technical writing, to organize the information in such a way that people who need the information can find it. Things like indexes and good tables of contexts. And now with the Internet and digital documents, good search functions, so that the information people need is accessible to them. And then I think we can also so write the ordinance so it's not longer than it has to be. And I'm going to repeat myself with another slide later on. But there are a lot of things we can do to shrink the size of the text from our writing style to not repeating things over and over that don't need to be repeated, good cross-referencing, shortening some of the long run-on sentences and paragraphs and legalese that you see. And also putting a lot of highly technical information on some of the long paragraphs into table format and things like that can really help shrink the size of the document. And then just in terms of not only the real size in term of number of pages but also the apparent size of the document. And I've done, you know, a lot of research just on that cognitive -- this cognitive psychology of document reading. That's how crazy I am. Because I do this all the time. I've got to know what the pivotal person looks for when they pick up a document, not just the person who works in planning every day like we do. And there's certain things that can make documents an easier read for people in terms of how you organize it. Having white space on a page can make it an easier read for people. Illustrating things with graphics, which are easier to read than text. Page 20 July 9, 2008 Now, we can't get rid of the text. I mean, that has to be part of the -- the text makes the graphics operational and it also supercedes the graphics. But those can help you explain things to people a lot more clearly than text. And demonstrating contrast between different areas of the regulations. And I also think getting things out of the Land Development Code that don't absolutely need to be there. Like, you know, right now -- and this is in a lot of zoning regulations, you have things like, you know, the large truck parking in somebody's driveway. That doesn't change the use. If I'm in a single-family subdivision and my neighbor parks a giant RV in their driveway, that -- the use on that lot is still a single-family home. It's not -- it doesn't change the zoning classification of that lot at all. It's really a property maintenance issue and it could go into the general code of laws. And would also be enforced differently. And then you could also get rid of some of the grandfathering issues that come up and all that. It can become a pure, okay, what type of regulation works best for this type of situation. So there are things like that. And also, you know, taking and harming wildlife is something you find in the Land Development Code as well. Well, if I take a hammer out and I go hit a sea turtle over the head, I haven't changed the use of my property. I may have done something really awful. Better change the use of my property, and I haven't done anything that affects the development of my property. Those types of rules don't belong in the land development regulations, they belong somewhere else in the code of laws. So as the cartoon hero says, this could be a zoning issue, an incompatible use or it could be a noise issue. You have two different sets of regulations that can deal with the -- that can keep the institute for the study of migraine headaches away from the Floyd School for Marching Bands. And then again how the document is designed can make it a lot easier to use. You can see it right here. This is one. It happened to be Page 21 July 9,2008 a form of base code. It could also be a conventional zoning regulation that has good plan view illustrations and cut-away illustrations of the dimensional standards. It has a tabular format. And it's also embedded in each regulation. I know one of the issues I've had, just in talking with staff, and one of the things I think we're getting back to in -- you know, which you use to do in the old 1991 Land Development Regulations and kind of got away from in the new one, is putting all the zoning district regulations together in one place for each district, rather than one table of uses and one table of dimensional standards. And I think your -- at least your zoning administrators feel that for them on a day-to-day basis it's a lot easier to use if it's codified the old way than the new way. So for this project we're going to keep the major chapter heading structure. We're looking at more internal reorganization. We're looking at external documents and moving things that don't need to be in the Land Development Code back to the general Code of Laws and consolidating the district regulations. And that's where we are now. And I think one thing that will help us tonight is from your perspective other major big issue, big picture items that you can think of from the development code -- because you're another group of people who use it on a day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month basis in things you've seen. So that's the organizational task. As I mentioned, the second major task is just writing internally sentence by sentence, rewriting the language in the code so that it makes sense to people once they find the area of the code that they want to be in. And this is interesting. And Susan mentioned that one of my recent clients is Washington D.C. and we worked with them on a project of really basically kind what we're doing here, which is kind of make what they called their technical and legal infrastructure for Page 22 July 9,2008 zoning a much easier thing for the public to absorb. And they handed me this wonderful book; it was written by an attorney, as you can see, a guy by the name of David Split, Attorney At Law, and one of the chapters in his style manual for their regulations in D.C., one of his first things he advised here was never use legalese. I thought it was interesting, he didn't say avoid legalese where possible, he said never use legalese. And I think that's a good admonition to follow, because there's no case or statute anywhere that I'm aware of that I've ever run into that says you have to use words like hereinafter or forthwith or all this language junk that really adds nothing to the meaning of the language, but tends to make the ordinance in the language daunting and difficult to read. And, you know, we pick on lawyers, we tell jokes about lawyers -- I am a lawyer so I feel like I can. But you know, they tend to be not as bad about this sometimes as I think planners and other folks who sometimes have an impression that you have to have this kind of language in here to have a legally enforceable ordinance. And the dirty little secret is you really don't. Short declarative sentences in plain English are perfectly fine. There's no rule of law that says you can't write regulations that way. In fact, you know, there's been a big push in the last 20 years for plain English, in Federal regulations all the way down to state and local regulations. And that's one thing we're going to try to incorporate here. Catherine has communication she's given to her staff in writing codes, and actually pulled a -- there's an interesting manual from the Florida Bar that talks about good writing style and things like that. So, you know, this -- it comes straight from the professionals. I don't think we should be afraid to make language easier to read. And I know you all are interested in that as well, so I appreciate that. So a lot of the things we're looking for here is finding areas Page 23 July 9, 2008 where the code now is written in the active voice -- or the passive voice and using the active voice, shortening the sentences and avoiding nominalization. It's a word I've learned from Catherine where you're using, you know, 15 words where you could use one. And my pet peeve, and I'm sure you all have others, is regulations that say shall be required. Well, just say shall. It's required today. So it's not like it's going to be required sometime in the future, it's required now. If it's a requirement in the ordinance, just say the applicant shall or the applicant must. Don't say the applicant shall be required to. The applicant's required to today. They're not going to be required to in a future ordinance so it's grammatically incorrect anyway. But that's just one example I have of something that just bugs me when people use too many words. There's weasel words in a lot of regulations. One of the things you have in your code today is there's a lot of requirements that say the applicant is encouraged to or the applicant is discouraged from doing something. Guess what that means? That means absolutely nothing. It means the applicant -- we'd like the applicant to do this, but the applicant is free to ignore it. The applicant can do something else. So, you know, it can be confusing for applicants too because sometimes they don't know whether that's required or not. And I don't think that's fair to them. They ought to know what the rules of the game are. We could put those in commentary, maybe. An ample of how you can do this is "X". So, you know, those are weasel words that really are meaningless. And we have to remember that this is a document that has legal consequences. I think we need to be as brief as we possibly can. Say things once, if we can, and not repeat things over and over that don't need to be repeated. And again, organize information that's now in long paragraphs into tables and lists. And there's one place, residential Page 24 July 9, 2008 nonconformities, for example, that part of the green book is something where there's an example of how we did that. And in terms of format. So that's how we internally write the document. In terms of how we arrange the document as well. Numbering. Trying to avoid infinite levels of subsections is a good way to reorganize the code. I'm trying to use as many top level sections as I can get away with. Using cross-references instead of repeating things over and over. And that's a -- you know, that's a tough issue. Because sometimes people get frustrated because they have to flip back and forth when you have cross-references. That's a judgment call. I think if it's something, you know, that's only used two or three times, maybe you just repeat it and avoid the cross-reference. If you're using it 15 or 16 or 17 times and you're going to add 300 pages in the ordinance, maybe a cross-reference works. Again, use a lot of white space on the page. Indent things so people can tell whether they're on a top level section or a subsection. U sing fonts and visual queues and integrated graphics as opposed to graphics that are somewhere where you've got to flip back and forth to find out what the rules of the game are. Those are ways to make the language easier to use. So again, here's some common problems, some things actually that I pulled from the existing land development code and some ways to shorten the language. Again, shall be required to, just change that to one word. Provided, however, that -- and that usually signals that you've got a run-on sentence. Just insert a period and then say however and, you know, create bite-size chunks for people to absorb. Shall not be subject to. Just say are not required to. Use more direct active language. Those types of things can make regulatory language easier for people to read. And one thing I'd like to encourage and include in development Page 25 July 9, 2008 codes, if I can, is visual queues, some sort of icon. I'm not married to this one, this is one that I just found on a word. But those of you, if you have a better one, that's fine. Just something that's set off, purpose statements and findings of fact that have to precede regulatory language is a good thing. And the reason why is that purpose statements aren't usually binding. They're not standards that somebody has to live up to, they're an explanation of why the language is there. So they serve a different purpose. And I think they serve a valuable purpose. But they ought to be set off somehow. Cross-references are a good thing to have in development codes. And you can set those off with an icon. And I like to include commentaries for language that's really hard to explain completely in a set of regulations sometimes where you think no matter how you explain it, it's just inherently complex. And sometimes it's good to have a commentary that explains okay, here's an example of how this would work in a particular project. You could put those in a box maybe with an icon to let people know it isn't a regulation but this is an explanation of how this works so that people can understand the regulations better. So here's a visual example of how we did the introductory statements. And this is from the San Antonio code they wrote a few years back where we italicized the purpose statements in each zoning district. And at the beginning of each zoning district we had a little three-dimensional orthographic diagram that showed how the setback and building height and all those dimensional and building form standards worked together to help people understand the district regulations better. So there's a lot of different types of graphics you can use. I find the planned view and ortho views tend to be very effective in showing dimensional standards, the relationships between the building plane and lot lines and things like that. Those are very effective for that. Flow charts are good things to have for your processes. You already Page 26 July 9,2008 have the street elevations. I know in one of your appendices, which we can move into chapter five or chapter six, I don't remember which one it is, where you have your street design standards. And then sometimes photographs and things like that can show people what the reading actually looks like, once it's built, if you have examples of that in the county. So there are different ways to illustrate. So that's a summary of how we go about rewriting the development codes. And I'll look forward to, you know, further comments you all might have from your experience in dealing with them. And then once the code is written, and of course it's got to be published. And right now you use Municode.com for your on-line version of the code. It's a national codifier. It has some good features, and has some good terms that frankly some of my clients tend to complain about. And there may be other ways to deal with it. And this is one that we hope to work closely with your county attorney's office to make sure that it's codified the way it needs to be. I usually write in -- I write my codes in Microsoft Word. I don't usually use -- you know, some urban design firms and architects use programs like a Adobe End Design or other programs that tend to produce a nicer looking document. But the issue with those is over time good luck finding a secretary or somebody who's got the technical expertise to modify those documents over time. And I think that can be difficult to generate tables of contents, cross-references and things like that. So we tend to because it's a legal document it has a different function than let's sayan urban design plan or your community character plan, for example. If the code has a different function we tend to use Word. I have a lot of techniques and tools like the table function I think is very effective for putting graphics into it and you can use the lines and adjust the lines and things like that. But that's a way to have the graphic and the text sitting alongside each other so Page 27 July 9,2008 you don't have to flip back and forth. And there's some ways, especially with the newer version of Word, Word 2007, you can really make the document look really nice. And also you can save it as a much smaller file, because it has an HTML based code format. So that's how we produce the initial document. We can also, with the list of permitted uses -- I know the county is getting back to or wanted to get back to or I think even may have with one of your last sets of amendments gone back to away from the table of permitted uses and now putting them back in the zoning district regulations themselves. I think sometimes it's good also maybe to have a separate document when you do have the table. Because there are people -- you know, this is a six to one, half dozen the other. A lot of people prefer to have the list of uses in the districts, a lot of people prefer to have the table. There's no reason why you can't have it both ways and the county planning staff, for example, could have an unofficial document that's the table. I usually put those in an Excel spreadsheet, and then I also put the parking ratios right next to each use so you don't run into interpretation issues. Because usually you'll have set of uses in the zoning district regulations, then you'll turn to the parking standards and there'll be a completely different set of uses. They're described differently. And that can create a horrible interpretation problem. So I'll usually set up a table in Excel where I have all the uses listed and I have the parking regulations also. And then at the end of the day if we want to just put the list of uses in each district, it's a pretty easy task. It takes you a few hours to maybe go through and just cull out all the uses that apply to that particular district and put them there. But you can maintain the other as an unofficial cheat sheet, both for staff and maybe for applicants. You can even put the Excel spreadsheet on the county's website for people to download. So, I mean, there's different ways to distribute this information and to Page 28 July 9, 2008 communicate this information to the general public. PDF downloads are a good format that everybody has access to, because the Adobe PDF format is a free install for anyone, you can install it in any operating system, whether you've got Windows or Mac or Atlantic based system. So it's accessible to everyone. And the county's web site can have individual chapters, separate downloads, and it can have one complete set of the LDC for people to download. And that's one limitation of the Muni Code is you've got to pull it up and scroll through each chapter separately. Whereas some of us, like me, and I'm kind of unique because I travel a lot, so I really can't carry a code around with me, and I don't always have access to the Internet where I am. And it's good to have it on my laptop. But I'm sure there's other people like that who would rather have just one document that's searchable and they can pull it up whenever they want. And then of course there's people who prefer the hard copy. So I think we should think about also too how it's printed out. And again, the PDF format's something the county staff is already comfortable with and can work with. They've done this with your individual code amendments, and this won't be a huge learning curve for anyone if we put the code in that format. Because they can always update it in Word and then save it as PDF files later on. Now, this is what the county has today. This is your Municode.com. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Excuse me. MR. WHITE: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mark, you talk at a pretty consistent pace. And I want to make sure Cherie's okay. Do you need a break for a few minutes, Cherie'? THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you. It's up to you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Do you want to take a brief recess? Let's take a recess. Be back in 15 minutes. Page 29 July 9, 2008 (Recess.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Mark, it looks like you can continue, sir. Thank you for the time. MR. WHITE: Okay. Just waiting to pull it back up here. All right, there we go. That's where I was. Previously and before we broke I was talking about the on-line codification, Municode.com. And this is what you have today. And one thing -- I mean, one good thing about Muni. Code is it does have good search features. You can do bullion features, you can -- you've got that table of content structure to the side. But I get a lot of complaints about it in other places because it is kind of legalistic and bland in terms of how they lay it out. And one particular complaint I get is how they deal with the graphics. As you can tell up here, it's always a link and then you click the link. And if you're lucky enough to have the fastest Broad Band connection, it takes about that long for it to pull up. And then for most people, it's a separate screen, so you've got to flip back and forth between the screens to get the image that illustrates the language in the code, which at the end of the day kind of defeats the purpose for having the image in the first place. So we'd like to find a way to publish the code so that -- so the images in the text can blend seamlessly with the regulations and live side by side next to each other. There are other codifiers. And there's two different ways of doing this. And you can keep your Muni. Code for your official code and then maybe have an unofficial code that's available in the county website for a download. So that's one. Or the county could find another codifier, just for its -- at least for its land development regulations. Now, I don't have any connections financially with these other companies. They're completely different, and I've in fact never worked with them. VIC Group's part of a team I'm part of now on two Page 30 July 9, 2008 projects in Texas, but they don't work for us and I don't even know them personally. But there are two firms, Candid (phonetic) Case and The VIC Group that specialize in codifying land development codes and zoning regulations. And I'll show you just a few examples of some of the things that they've done, and if any of you want to look at it. Milwaukee has a computerized zoning ordinance, City of Milwaukee, where they have -- they've done a really unique thing here I think with their table of permitted uses. Which you have today. You've got a table of permitted uses. They've color coded it and things like that. This is something called penscape (phonetic). It's a CD that was distributed some years back that VIC Group put together, they're the outfit in Pennsylvania, where, you know, similar to Muni. Code, you pull it up, you have the search functions, you've got the table of contents on the left. But they also have ways where they've embedded the graphics with the text. So that's just one example there. But, you know, the CD has others. And it gives you another way to distribute the code as well. And I think Muni. Code can distribute the CD also, the CD of what they have. But their limitation again is they've got the folio views and they don't have the side-by-side graphics that the other codifiers do. Or we could also do this with the PDF downloads as well. So there are different ways to do that. And that's one area where we hope to work with your county attorney's office and your county clerk or whoever else is involved in the codification process. So that's our approach to making the code a more user friendly and workable document for the county. The second thing, as I mentioned, is the famous green book, which is the nonconformities draft that we did. And if you've got it, if you've seen it, the first part is one where Catherine put this together and she highlighted the stuff, the existing language, and she struck out language on the left-hand side of the page that -- struck out the Page 31 July 9, 2008 language that's been deleted, and then just the new stuff is on the right-hand side of the page. That's the first part of the document. And then there's an orange sheet. And then there's the thing that I initially provided to the county that she used to put together the stuff on the right-hand side of the sheet. So I knew that was a little confusion earlier today with DSAC, there was some confusion about whether these were two different documents. And they're not really. They're just different ways of displaying them. So what we did on the nonconformities is first of all we consolidated some stuff that was scattered in different parts of the ordinance. And most notably what's in 1.04.04 today, which is really a nonconformity provision. But you wouldn't know it because it was in Chapter 1 of the ordinance and you usually look in Chapter 9 for that kind of thing. So we put it back in Chapter 9. And we also broke out the different types of nonconformities into the different categories. And the most generic one that most people relate to is nonconforming use. It's a use no longer allowed in the zoning district. It's been there, it's lawfully established and it's got to be allowed to continue. And the type of nonconformities you have affects the type of rules that apply in the future, whether it's got to amortize, whether and how it can expand and so forth. So there's nonconformities as to use. You can have a use that's perfectly permissible in the district that you're in and it's perfectly okay in the district, but maybe the structure it's in is two or three feet over the setback line. So that would be a nonconforming structure. You've got a nonconforming site improvement like parking. Maybe you don't have enough parking spaces and, you know, in some places I've worked they have maximum parking standards, so there might be too much parking. That will create some interesting issues. Landscaping might not be compliant, those types of things might not be compliant. Page 32 July 9, 2008 The nonconforming condition -- and this is a unique definition that the county already had, where it's not particular -- it's not really a use but maybe it's storage. You've got too many things stored on your property. And it doesn't really change the use but it's a condition that's got to go away in a year once the rules change. There can be nonconforming lots, and that's typically a lot that's either too narrow or not of sufficient size for the district that it's in. And then there's people that aren't established yet, but they're caught in the middle of the permitting process when the rules change. And there's special rules in the regulations for those. So we laid out all the different categories in the discreet sections of the code so that people can more clearly understand what type of nonconformity they might have, and then they can see what happens to them as a result of the rules changing. So those are laid out. And it's important to note that our intent here was not to change the rules that are in effect today but just to make them more clear and easier to understand. And this is a technical detail that, you know, it's a hard one for sometimes for people in the general public to absorb, especially on the first read. So we try to make it as easy as possible. So those are some examples of format changes and 1 -- 9.03.05 is an example on Page 25 where we took your nonconforming residences and a lot of the wording language and put it into a table format so people can see the differences more clearly. We went from -- you know, again we did a lot of work to change the legalistic style of writing to a more clear direct style of writing. And again, we've worked on the categories. So those are the major changes to the nonconformities that you'll see in the green book. And I think that's one where at the beginning if you have -- you know, if you found a typo or something like that, please, you know, let Catherine know. Send her an e-mail or something like that. We're not going to talk about the details tonight. If you have any big picture comments or concerns about that, we'd Page 33 July 9,2008 certainly like to discuss it. Then the final topic tonight is the issue of an administrative code or handbook, which is something that could replace what's is Chapters 8 and 10 of your code today. And the reason why we're looking at that is, well, first of all it would be something that's outside of the Land Development Code. As I mentioned earlier, it's a very technical item, not something that this -- you know, the whole process and all the process issues are not things that people in the general public usually can either relate to or one that they really are interested in hearing about. So we think putting it in a separate document can make the guts of the regulations that most people are interested in hearing about easier to get to and easier to read. So pulling that out and categorizing that and compartmentalizing them can make the whole code an easier document to get through. It would be something that's more easily changed. And the last bullet I think is very important. It's a discussion I usually have with the engineers, because they'll usually have a separate set of engineering specs in the laundromat way, because they think they can just change them whenever they come back from the ITE conference and want to change the road widths from 28 feet to 32 feet. Well, the issue of that is you can change it on your word processer, but it's not legally binding until you take it through the adoption process. So what we have here would be something that the department can change as needed. But when the code and when the manual changes, of course there would have to be an adoption ordinance that makes it operational and legally effective. The nice thing is it's a one-page ordinance. It will -- you know, the county hereby adopts the land development manual dated June 1 st, 2009 can just be changed to the county adopts the land -- or the Page 34 July 9, 2008 administrative manual dated July 1st, 2010. You know, it's a very short ordinance that you would need to adopt. In one document in an administrative code or administrative handbook we can combine the permitting practices, how you go about getting the permit, who considers it and so forth, and all the forms and the agency materials in one document. And again, the county can maintain the codification of that itself without having to send stuff out to another agency like Muni. Code. So again, it would consolidate the procedures, include a lot of explanatory material and make it real user friendly. Now, there are several -- if any of you are interested in researching this further, I know Hillsboro County and Lee County both have administrative manuals. So, I mean, it's not something that's unknown in the State of Florida. There are other communities in Florida who do this already. But one way to layout the manual -- and I've got a slide here that just kind of shows you a brief outline of how it can be done. Is first of all, I always like to include an executive summary chapter that would say something like how to use this document that would tell somebody picking it up where they go to look for information. Somebody might just want to know what -- might just want a checklist for a rezoning application, for example. So it would show you, you know, where you go for rezonings. And once you get there it would have a subsection that says checklist of required information or something like that. Chapter two could have a list of documents, other documents that a property owner might need to know about, everything from the Land Development Code, so it would reference Muni. Code, it would reference the zoning department's website as well, where there may be an unofficial version of the code and other materials that would be helpful to them. Even state materials like the Florida Wetland Delineation Manual, for example. There could be a reference to that. Page 35 July 9,2008 Because I know that's probably one that's important in different parts of the county. It would have a description of the decision-making bodies. Now, the Land Development Code, you need organic law to actually establish the bodies so that they're functioning entities. This is one of those ordinances that you need, but once you write it, nobody ever reads it again. So it's one of those to the back of the document category of regulations. But we'd have the list of the different bodies involved in the development process from you all, the planning commission, the county commission and the different departments and agencies and so forth and what their rolls and responsibilities and duties and jurisdiction are. There will be a chapter on the different review procedures also, all the way from plan amendment, which is a big thing in Florida, less so in other states, but here it's a pretty big deal. Rezonings, all the way down to building permits and your more, you know, behind the counter types of permits. They would have contact information for county staff. The application forms would be under one cover with all the substantive regulations, but have sample documents, and you've got some of those in the appendix to the LDC today. Which I think is useful for applicants. It also adds a lot of thickness to the code. It would be useful to get it out and then the fee schedules could be in there as well. So you could have everything that's germane to how somebody goes about getting their property ready to develop in one document. And each subsection, you know, whether we keep it there -- this could also be kept in Chapter 10 of the LDC. I mean, we could do it both ways. It's up to the county. My assumption today, and based on my preliminary discussions with staff, is we'll pull it out, put it in a separate manual. But for each different permitting process, there would also be a common set of subsections which I think, you know, makes it easier to read, because Page 36 July 9, 2008 people start looking for certain things that they need to know. Like one is, who needs this type of permit? That's an applicable section. Another would be how you go about getting the permit, who you apply to, who you get your application to and so forth. That's how you initiate the permit. There would be one for completeness review, or I think the county today calls it sufficiency review. So that would have your checklist of required information and so forth. The decision-making process. It would tell you whether it requires a public hearing, who holds the hearing and what's going to happen to you at the hearing and how that decision process is made. The applicant needs to know this and also you as an agency need to know that as well. I mean, how you go about voting on and approving or disapproving or attaching conditions to the applications is very important information. I would have the criteria for approval. Some types of approvals, like conditional use permits have their own discreet set of criteria. Others would just reference the different parts of the land development code that apply to them. And then once the permit is in hand, then there's other things that people need to know. Like if you want to reapply, how you do that. Is there a time period that applies. In some places if your rezoning's denied, you can't apply for another year, for example. So there would be things like that in there. How you go about amending the permit, if you want to. What does the permit authorize. Very important for vested rights and other considerations. Because certain things are authorized and certain things are not. And the applicant needs to know that and so does the county. And then how the applicant maintains that permit over time so that they can, you know, demonstrate that they comply with the regulations and also for due diligence when they sell their property and so forth. How they maintain that permit. So those are things, and Page 37 July 9, 2008 those are the common subsections. So with that, that's all I have for tonight. Yeah, it was -- you know, I've talked about our approach to making the regulations more user friendly, better organization, better writing style and our approach to doing that. You've got the green book with the nonconformities section, and our concept going forward today said we're going to have an administrative manual. So with that, I'll look forward to your comments. Any comments or suggestions, especially big picture ones, I look forward to hearing from you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Very, very nIce presentation. Really, very complete. As you will not be here for the next meeting, who will represent you at the next meeting when we meet? MR. WHITE: Well, I'll let -- you want to talk about that, Catherine? MS. F ABACHER: Sure. I don't know that we'll necessarily do this at the next meeting, but at the next meeting when we do it, it will be probably Susan and I and Joe, we'll be here. If you have -- if you have questions, though, that you directly want to ask him, I can e-mail those to him. But we don't -- COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, I'm not sure of that. But I know he was hired for his expertise. MS. F ABACHER: He is. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I think if we got into some issues like tonight there's not going to be an opportunity to ask those questions. I know he's going to imbue you with all this knowledge -- MR. SCHMITT: We can arrange for-- COMMISSIONER MURRAY: -- but some it's going to be missmg. MR. WHITE: -- phone contact. Page 38 July 9, 2008 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But isn't Mark here to -- he's laying out he's not responsible for the changes. The changes are still something staff would have to explain to us. So tonight is if you have questions of Mr. White about the layout, that's what he's -- that's the only thing he's going to be able to answer really in the future. He's not going to be able to define to you why a word changed in regards to why staff would have a different interpretation or meaning to it. He's just simply taking what's already in the code and moving it into a collective body. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I heard more than that, Mark, that's why I projected that question. Because of the fact that there's going to be some radicalization, as I understood it, as you hope to keep it as intact as possible. But you clearly indicated that you would have some changes that were I guess significant, perhaps prescriptive, I don't know. But in any event, I think my question has been answered. But I do have one question that I would ask. I looked at your table that you referenced earlier, I think you called it Page 24. MR. WHITE: Yes. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And I have to be honest with you, I wasn't clear as to how that table worked. For instance, I'll tell you the simple part of it, it is a bunch of checkmarks. And when we get down to the planning commission, the board of zoning appeals, there's no checkmark. And I don't know what that represents. Also, I was thinking about under A where it says regardless of the percentage of destruction, and I thought to myself, suppose a tree falls on a house and the damage is limited to two percent. Those are the types of questions that -- because I thoroughly looked at this and I thought it was -- should have this kind of review. But I'm not clear on how the tables work. Does it work laterally, does it work across, or does it work across and down? For instance, if I were coming in under A, would I expect, based on this table, to end Page 39 July 9, 2008 up at the board of zoning appeals? MR. WHITE: The way the table works is described right above. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah, I read that. MR. WHITE: Go to column A. COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Right. MR. WHITE: And if you go to detached single-family, then you read horizontally. I mean, we still read left to right here. So you look at okay, I've got a detached single-family home that's not permitted in the district, maybe it's been rezoned to commercial, for example. Well, what's allowed? Under that column I can alter, expand or replace it, and there's a nonconforming use alteration petition. That will have to be described in the administrative handbook. And then there's specific standards in the zoning district regulations that are cross-referenced here that pertain to those. So I'm not sure where you were talking about the regardless of. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Oh, that's the very last statement under category A where it says detached single-family dwellings, duplexes, mobile homes -- MS. ISTENES: That's the paragraph, Mark, at the bottom of your A. MR. WHITE: Oh, regardless of percent of destruction, okay. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah, and what came to my mind was okay, a tree falls and damages but it's limited to, say, two percent. So I just wondered about that. There were a couple of other items of that type that were in there that -- so what you're saying to me is that if I -- under A I would read across and I would also read down. MR. WHITE: That's right. Well, you read down to find out what category you're in. And the second one is if your home is damaged, regardless of the percent, here's what happens. Because there are others where it's damage to a certain percent. I mean, that's typically the rule of nonconformities. Then that triggers whether it's got to be totally Page 40 July 9, 2008 replaced or so forth. So that's when you start reading across. Anyway, we'll work on that. MS. ISTENES: What might make it easier is if we put the lines in the table and then maybe put -- MR. WHITE: Sure. MS. ISTENES: -- every other line, like shade the first line, keep the second line white, shade the third line, or something to that effect. It might make your eye follow it a little bit easier. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I don't know. I just wanted to -- I've read that repeatedly and I just wasn't sure. And that's the issue. It's not that it can't be concluded, it's just that if somebody's not sure, you don't achieve what you intend. MS. ISTENES: Exactly. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And I don't know what -- I had a bunch of them, as I'm sure you do, but I'm not going to -- we're not going to do that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah, if you've got any format, like you just had, that's great. MR. WHITE: Well, and the checkmarks are just a list. I mean, they could be one, two, three. I just put a checkmark -- although usually, if you read it -- you know, you've seen those yellow books like The Internet For Dummies, you know, those books where they're really written for a lay audience. They use checkmarks and most people understand what those are. It's just a list of stuff. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Let me just -- I'm sorry, let me just explain the basis of my question. There was some -- and I don't recall the particulars now, but I do remember clearly that there was some issue about some -- whether something would or would not come to the planning commission, based on possible changes. And it was not clear. The answer never really came forth, as far as I recall. And so I wondered in the absence of a checkmark at that location what that represented, that's all. Page 41 July 9, 2008 MR. WHITE: Well, that would -- because under C, that's the process. That tells you what you've got to do to reestablish the use or continue it or whatever. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, that to me is very clear. It's the activities are approved. So wouldn't a checkmark be logical there or -- well, it's your use of the checkmark. Everyone else has a checkmark. I just thought that was curious. MR. WHITE: Okay. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I don't think it's a big deal. MR. WHITE: Oh, I see what you mean. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I don't have any other format questions. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Brad, did you have any questions? COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I do. Mark, and I think I kind of had a little bit of trouble on that chart, too. And I think it's what you referred to as your white space. I think if we had some better white space. I'm not sure where some of the -- you know, for example, in column C the activities are approved administratively, I believe that applies to the first one. But does the one down below apply to the second one? Anyway, just white space is the concern on that chart. MR. WHITE: Okay. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: The other thing I'd recommend is you brought up dictionary. Check our dictionary, because the word adjacent has a wider meaning than I'm sure you're used to. MR. WHITE: Okay. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And then the other question I had is, you know, we get into an issue with using the SIC codes. Well, what's happening out there in the industry to describe allowable uses in zoning districts? MR. WHITE: The way I usually -- the SIC is the old one and it's kind of outdated now. The most recent -- the most recent, what's Page 42 July 9, 2008 replaced the SIC is what's called the NAICS, the North American Industrial Classification System. And that's published by the Department of Commerce. Now, when I build lists of permitted uses, I usually work from that. And also the thing I find even more useful than that, it says industry classifications, which at first cut is fine, but you'll find things that don't really work for zoning. It may be the same industry, two uses in the same industry but with different types of neighborhood impacts. For example, I think tattoo parlors are within an entertainment or personal service. So tattoo parlors are in the same category as a nail salon. Well, a lot of neighborhoods are fine with a nail salon, but they don't want a tattoo parlor next to them. They're considered more intensive. So I'll use the NAICS initially, but then the American Planning Association has something called the land based classification standards, which I find useful, because they categorize things about five different ways. And the two things that work most and I find most applicable to zoning are one is what they call function, which is their counterpart to the NAICS and SIC. These are different classifications of businesses and types of residences. So that's the first cut. And then they have a second element of classification called structure. And I've used structure a lot for form base codes. Because they don't really get into how -- like you have a live work unit for example is part of the structure classification. When I build the list of permitted uses, I usually work from both of those. And I'll do the checkoff. And I also check off what the local community has. Because there's a lot of history that usually goes into that list of permitted uses. A lot of particular things some communities will see that you don't see anywhere else or that have been hot button issues. So I work with those too usually when I build a list of permitted uses. Page 43 July 9, 2008 COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Are we going to be doing that? Are you going to be doing that in this go round? MR. WHITE: Sure. MS. ISTENES: We actually have discussed that, and we're still discussing it. But yes, to answer your question, we definitely need to update our SIC either to NAICS, which we had previously planned on doing that, and actually done quite a bit of staff work on many years ago. Or the AP A function. And I think part of the AP A function, as Mark said, has a little bit more of a form base code on it. So I'm not sure -- I mean, that's something I think we probably either need to really workshop and talk about or maybe have a discussion about. Because it can get pretty complicated. And I think Mark rightly pointed out, there's -- even through the use of the SIC code, you'll see a lot of things that are exempted. Like you'll have the SIC number and then except for, and then it will list, you know, five or 10 uses that have been pulled out of the list as deemed incompatible. So there is a lot of work that goes into it, and we just want to be sure that, you know, we're headed down the right track as far as what the board wants and what you all recommend. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But Mark, is there a way to do these uses without going into a number code? And let me give you an example representing architects that there -- some people have shown me some problems, litigation problems, where they misunderstood the number. And, you know, obviously when you track it down they misunderstood the number. But the point is, why is it a number? Why isn't it a better verbal description? We're all kind of used to that. So what do codes tend to do, use the number code and then maybe in the annex or the appendix have the codes that they're using in that town? Or how do people get around that problem? Because it is a problem if somebody's in court trying to figure it out. Page 44 July 9, 2008 MR. WHITE: Okay. There's two different ways. What most zoning regulations have today is just a text description. And the issue you'll find in most codes, especially ones that haven't been comprehensively updated is they leave a lot of things out or they leave a lot of things to interpretation. So that obviously creates uncertainty for applicants and a lot of work for staff. So that's the way most zoning ordinances are. That's the place most zoning regulations are in. When I've updated codes for other communities -- in fact, most communities I'm in like the table format and that's what they use. And I would usually have that being the table I cross-reference in the NAICS and the LBCS codes. And that gives people a reference so that we don't have to define it. And the clients that I've done that for have told me that that helps when they get the odd use that nobody thought of that comes through the door. And it also helps us when we just put the list of permitted uses together. So that's the way I've done it in other places. Now, the alternative to that, and it's a lot of work, that's probably going to be -- you know, we do have a limited budget we're working with here but, I mean, you can take all of those uses and just define them and use the LBCS. They have written definitions in this one, and just have a very extensive, lengthy list of use definitions. And that's a lot of work, it would be time-consuming. I think it's cleaner just to have a cross reference. So that's another -- in some communities also, I know a lot of planners write just the classifications, and they'll have the different categories, from single-family residential to multi-family to service type, you know, they'll just describe the list of categories and have a list of permitted uses in each district. And I don't know, I've always had problems with that because I think it looks good when you're reading the document, but it leaves a lot of -- it doesn't always tie things together cleanly. And I think just having that -- having the categories helps and the cross-reference to Page 45 July 9, 2008 the list of permitted -- or the cross references to the LBCS and NAICS helps. And we also usually have as well, I can provide this, is a set of rules of interpretation. You're always going to have something that walks through the door that nobody thought of. I mean, just because technology changes and who knows what's going to happen with energy and all that in the next 10,20 years, that's going to change a lot of stuff. New things will come through the door and we'll just have rules of interpretation and a process staff goes through for when those uses come in. And there's not a lot of set of regulations there ready and waiting for them because nobody's ever thought of this thing before. So they'll look at the impacts of the use and that sort of thing and there'll be a process for them to make an interpretation that really fits in with this broad category of retail uses, commercial uses, service uses or what have you. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Thank you. MS. F ABACHER: I'll just tell you one thing -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No, no, let me try to finish this panel first. Ms. Caron? COMMISSIONER CARON: Actually, I think that what I need to talk about I can talk to Catherine directly in flipping through things. I think -- I'm good with the structure you're trying to go for. I think it's really important to make these things user friendly. And a lack of integration is a big key for me. When you have to go to 800 places to find everything that's supposed to be happening in a particular zoning district, that's not user friendly. And cross-referencing I see is really a good and bad thing. And based on your comments here tonight, I think you've got a handle on that, because a total -- if everything's just cross-referenced, then that's what I'm talking about, it's not integrated and I have to go to 18 different places to find what I need. Page 46 July 9, 2008 But on the other hand, as you stated, restating long paragraphs of things is not necessarily user friendly either. So it seems like you've got a pretty good grasp on that as well. So I think most of the issues I have I can talk to Catherine about. However, the goal here at this point is not to change anything substantive in the code, correct? MR. WHITE: That's correct. COMMISSIONER CARON: Okay. I will bring up to Catherine a couple of things. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I have questions, but I know it would take another half hour, so I'll just send my questions to Catherine and if she can't answer them, she'll forward them on to you. I have one question, though, for you. MR. WHITE: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Have you ever heard of a thing called books on tape? MR. WHITE: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. When you read the LDC, could you read it out loud and put it on tape for all of us? MR. WHITE: I think that would be a great cure for insomnia. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That way when we're driving down the road we can listen to you on tape. MR. WHITE: If anybody's having trouble sleeping, that will be the cure you're looking for. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Catherine, you had something? MS. FABACHER: I just wanted to -- I'm sorry I interrupted. I just wanted to say that one of the -- right now we're doing nonconformities. The next thing that Mark is going to do is the administrative code, which will be a big chunk. We're I think asking you as users of the code what other sections you find truly the most problematic. Because we have Mark until the money runs out, and we want to get the worst -- I think we talked. Page 47 July 9,2008 about -- Susan, some of the other sections we talked about were -- MS. ISTENES: We've identified some as staff. But I'm curious just, you know, what your opinions are. And like I said, like Catherine mentioned, the next thing is the administrative code and that's going to be a really big task that I think is going to have a huge impact both from a user perspective as well as really showing how noticeably more compact the code will become and easier to manage and easier to amend any of our procedures and all that. So yeah, curious for see if there's particular areas that you find frustrating. I appreciate the comment about the uses. That is a very huge task. And I will just add, when you start using and incorporating or using the NAICS -- we call is NAICS, N-A-I-C-S code, one of the benefits to that for us that is again a time-saver and something that we can back up our interpretations or opinions on relative to uses is when you start using NAICS, you have uses grouped together. So when you get that oddball use, it's almost like you have points of reference where you can try to see where the best fit is. And that is very, very, very helpful to staff. Because people can come in with some really odd, strange uses. They do today. And things are always changing, as Mark pointed out. People are always inventing new things. And that's great. That's part of a changing community. But to have that reference is very, very helpful to us as staff and I think it's very helpful to the public to understand how they fit into zoning as well to be able to use that as a reference. So I would just point that out, that's something to consider. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead, Mr. Schiffer. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And Mark, the -- one thing you didn't really get into, but I wonder, are people using hyperlinks? For example, if there was somebody looking at the code, it has the SIC or the NAICS, whatever that is, number. If they could hyperlink right to that website, that would be the -- has anybody ever set it up like that, Page 48 July 9,2008 because that's -- MR. WHITE: Yeah. I mean, actually, I've written it that way in the codes I've written, cross-reference the NAICS. I've usually put in parens a hyperlink to the Department of Commerce's web site and the LPSCAP A (phonetic) website. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: To lead right to that page. I mean, the use of that would be really great to jump around. Susan, looking for things to do, and I think you're doing it anyway, but, you know, one time for every zoning use you had everything about that use. You had the land use, you had the dimensional properties and everything in one chapter. I mean, it was fun taking it all apart and putting it in one table but, you know, are we going to put it back together, because the jumping around that Donna's talking about is exactly that. MS. ISTENES: Yeah, the tables we created as you know didn't quite work out. Although I know they're very successful in other places. I think Collier County just has a plethora of regulations in their zoning districts, but this didn't fit into a tabular form. And it was really difficult for -- more so for the customers than anything to understand the table. And then we make a lot of copies of the zoning district and we like to have everything about the district in one area, because otherwise we could hand people three or four pages versus 10 flipping through the book trying to find everything that applies in that zoning district. So yes, we're going to head back that way. And we have started. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And even if in that one area you reference other areas that apply but it's from that one area, so -- MS. ISTENES: Correct. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: -- from one landing zone you can find everything. MS. ISTENES: Yes, absolutely. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And Mark, one other question I Page 49 July 9, 2008 have is writing to Catherine, I had a lot of comments when I went through this thing. I don't have to write them all to Catherine. Can't we wait till we review this page by page in the future? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah, we can. I've got format questions. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'm not going to spend a half an hour asking those tonight. I'll just send them to Catherine. Some may be answerable right by her, and then she can forward them. And I'll be satisfied with my answers that way. You're right, we are going to go over this word by word like we always do when we get into that section. And we is certainly can't do that tonight because we don't even have a quorum, so yeah, you're right. Mr. Murray, you had another question? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah. And it appears we were never going to be doing that from what I understood. And I think your presentation covered everything very nicely anyway. Informality. You spoke about informality in terms of maybe the staff having an informal copy. I wonder if that's really a good idea. I was thinking about changes that occur. And Joe is good and consciousness and Charlie's not. And you get into discrepancy, disparity. I wonder, has that worked out? Do you know if that works out generally? MR. WHITE: It does. And I think, if I understand your question correctly, you're talking about having unofficial documents that are -- COMMISSIONER MURRAY: You mentioned having a code, you know, with various dimension items on it and that they might keep a copy in Excel, et cetera, et cetera. MR. WHITE: Yeah. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: And I thought that was fine, except I wondered, because I know in large organizations, even in Page 50 July 9, 2008 small groups, things change, people don't always catch up, and then you end up having argument, you were having differences of opinion. MR. WHITE: Sure. Well, what happens is -- and that's a good question. That is a good question, because yeah, there are problems that can occur. Because there may be a change to the LDC's and somebody forgets to change the Excel spreadsheet so the property owner downloads the spreadsheet, sees that the use is still permitted, yet it was taken out in the last cycle of amendments and they go forward thinking it's permitted whereas in fact legally it's not. And technically it's not a serious legal issue because it's the code that's binding. And what the website and everything else will say, if you want to see what's allowed, you look at the official regulations, this is just an exploratory material. And if they made that mistake, it's their fault for not doing their due diligence. Now, that's the technical response. Yet the applicants can still get upset, because they may feel like the county misled them and all that. Well, they don't have much of a legal argument, but that can create bad customer relations if you don't keep things up. So, you know, if you do have unofficial documents, yes, it's a good ideal to keep them up to date or people may feel that way. Although I don't think they're going to have -- I don't think it's going to create a serious legal issue or anything like that. It's just going to be something where somebody felt like okay, the county -- one document says one thing, one says the other. But it's pretty clear what's binding and what's not. And people always have a duty to check the official copy of the documents to see what's allowed and what's not allowed. But that said, I think even -- even that being a consideration, it can happen. You know, I'd not be -- I wouldn't be telling you the truth if I told you anything different. That kind of thing can happen. So it's a good question, I'm glad you raised it. But even with that, I think it's good to have versions that are sort of an unofficial version that people can use. Because it's sort of the Page 51 July 9, 2008 binary theory of life. I mean, half the people want it one way, half people want it the other. And once we put Humpty-Dumpty back together and put all the district regulations back in one place, you're going to get people who go, boy, wouldn't it be nice to have a chart that shows me where the dog spas are allowed in the county, you know. Well, it would be nice to have something like that for people. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: My only concluding comment with regard to that is I presume that every planner has their own official copy of what it is that they've accumulated over time. So I don't think that's a new thought. What I was concerned about is your apparent legitimization of it which, if that's accepted your problem will not only be with your applicants but may very well end up with the community being uninformed or informed other than correctly. And they're not concerned with the law, they're concerned with their emotion. And it would broadcast issues that needn't be broadcast. So it's something to deliberate, I think, sincerely. MR. WHITE: Sure. Thank you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, I think we've exhausted our questions of you for tonight. Mark, thank you very much for all your time and effort for being here for the explanation tonight. It was well worthwhile. MR. WHITE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And I'm sure they'll be getting e-mails. MR. WHITE: Sure, thank you. MS. F ABACHER: I have one more piece of business for you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: You have a hand-out, don't you? MS. F ABACHER: Yes, I do. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. MS. F ABACHER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: For those members that aren't here, they will be getting it in a regular formal -- MS. F ABACHER: DHL. Page 52 July 9, 2008 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. And Heidi, before we unofficially adjourn our unofficial meeting, this was advertised as the first LDC cycle 2008 meeting to start at 5:05. Since it didn't start because we didn't have a quorum, in order for us to officially start Cycle 1, 2008, do we have to start with another evening meeting which we now do not have scheduled? MS. ASHTON : Yes, you will need another evening meeting. And this was advertised solely for the presentation by Mr. White. It was -- the LDC amendments were not advertised as well. But yes, we do need one. MR. SCHMITT: We don't have to start with a 5:05 meeting, but we will have to have another 5:05 meeting. MS. ASHTON: Yes, reschedule. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Well, that's what I want to know, because we have four meetings scheduled. Which one of those is then going to be -- the only -- you don't -- MS. F ABACHER: Could I get some possible -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Catherine, let me finish talking. You don't need to have the first one scheduled for 5:05, but one of the four has to be; is that what you're saying, Heidi? MS. ASHTON: Correct. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Catherine? MS. FABACHER: I'm sorry. I just said let me put together some possible dates and send them to everyone and see for the night meeting. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: What I think I just heard, we may have one of the four scheduled. Don't we have one of the four scheduled for the evening? I thought I saw one that was scheduled. MS. F ABACHER: That's tonight. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No. Go ahead. COMMISSIONER CARON: It's the 27th of August is at 1 :00 Page 53 July 9, 2008 p.m. I think that's the latest I see any of the LDC meetings. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Well then we'll have to see about scheduling another one and just getting it fitted in. It might be a makeup night or something like that. MR. SCHMITT: Your schedule is right inside your book cover there, second or third page. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Is this integrated with the schedule that we get from Ray? MR. SCHMITT: We do have a 5:05 meeting September 24th on the schedule. MS. F ABACHER: Excuse me, that's the BCC. MR. SCHMITT: That's the BCC. I'm sorry. Couldn't open it up far enough. We will have to find another meeting. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, that's fine. And maybe we can schedule one in between if we have some short items we can finish up, and maybe that would keep one of the day meetings off. So that's what I needed to find out. Yes, Catherine. MS. F ABACHER: I'd just like to explain just a thing or two about the book that has the remainder. It looks scary bigger because A, I took the summary sheets and I did them differently this time so that there's only one to each page. And all of the EAC and DSAC comments that they want you to have will be on each individual page. The next tab system is -- I'm hoping that for the July 30th meeting that we'll get through page -- I'm so sorry, I'm in the wrong place -- through Page 90. So I'm suggesting that for the July 30th meeting you need to review only this part of the book. Then the second meeting is the August 12th. And perhaps at that point at that meeting -- I mean, I'm thinking that leaves only transportation and environmental. But I don't think we'll finish it all in one meeting. But that would be what you would look at for the second Page 54 July 9,2008 -- your second daytime meeting. And then finally, all of the amendments that are EAR-based have the GMP language, the EAR-based GMP language back in the appendices here. There's one appendix for compo plan GMP language, there's one for transportation, one for environmental. And then finally, Joe had asked that the minutes on the last time we met on the bald eagle nest issue be included, just so we could recall what the direction was. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Catherine, I notice that on July 30th, August 13th and August 28th we're scheduled for full days. So basically what's going to happen is if on July 30th we get through the 90 pages in less than a full day, we would have to stop and not come back till the 13th. So then we'd have something to -- because some people wouldn't be prepared to go past the 90 pages you've outlined today. MS. F ABACHER: That's true. I reserved the room for the whole day. I didn't know how long it would take. But if you want to move the 30th and take in the transportation also. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No, what I'm trying to say is normally you give us these books, we're prepared from day one to discuss anything in the whole book so that we can utilize the entire full time of the day. In this process we'd end up going into multiple days, simply because it's now scheduled that way. I hadn't known we were going to do that, and I personally don't like that because I hate to lose the time if we've got the whole day for this room. But if it's -- MS. FABACHER: Right. Well, may I make the suggestion then, that we could move it into Page 120, which would take in the transportation, and that would leave then -- after that the rest of the book is all environmental, which is where the length is going to be, I'm afraid, of hearing. So if that's all right with you at all, we could go through Page 120, or be prepared through Page 120 for the July -- would that be Page 55 July 9,2008 okay? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I think the more you tell us to be prepared for, the better chance we get to use the whole day, rather than less. MS. F ABACHER: That's fine. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So that's all I'm trying to say. MS. FABACHER: No, I appreciate your direction on it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'll have the whole book read by the 30th. I would hope that as many of us that can will do that so we could keep moving. I'd rather not lose the time. And I agree with you, the environmental is going to take up way too much time. MS. FABACHER: Exactly. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And we're going to-- MR. SCHMITT: If this committee or the board wishes to do that, we'll go through the whole book in one day. I mean, if-- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No, you can only go as fast as we can ask the questions. MR. SCHMITT: Exactly. And I think what Catherine is trying to do is make sure that the appropriate staff it is here to address -- MS. F ABACHER: Exactly, yes, thank you. MR. SCHMITT: And that's what we did, we've notified the staff. But based on past LDC hearings, we know -- we've kind of gauged how long it will take to go through these. But if it appears that you -- we will get through Page 120 and it looks like it's only 1 :00 in the afternoon, we'll alert the other staff to be ready to come in and talk about the rest of the issues. We can certainly proceed. It's just it's more of a target rather than an actual affirmation that's that what we -- that we'll stop at that page. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: My wife will tell you I'm always the optimist. When we have a problem at the house and I go to fix it, I'll Page 56 July 9,2008 say, honey, it's going to take me 15 minutes, the plumbing will be fixed, the water will be back on. MR. SCHMITT: I usually say 20. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But guess what, four hours later it still isn't done. MR. SCHMITT: I usually say it's only 20 minutes and we're done, and then four hours later I'm back at the store for three more things. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I'd rather approach it on the optimistic outlook that we could get through this in a shorter period of time. So if staff could be ready. And maybe the planning commission, those members here and those watching, and Catherine, if you could just e-mail the ones that aren't here, if they could be prepared to discuss more rather than less, that would all help us get through this time. MS. F ABACHER: No problem. But we're in agreement then I'll have staff here through 120 to begin with. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: We can have just part for the morning and then call them as you see them. You'll know if we're moving faster -- MS. FABACHER: Exactly. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- you have to go ahead -- MS. F ABACHER: I need to let them know not to schedule anything -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I hate to see tax dollars sitting in this room. It doesn't -- MS. F ABACHER: I do, too. MR. SCHMITT: No, they need to be doing reviews. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I've been over to your place, there's nobody in there. If there's nothing else, then we will adjourn this unofficially Page 57 July 9, 2008 If there's nothing else, then we will adjourn this unofficially adjourned meeting. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Mark, this is a nonconforming meeting. How appropriate. COMMISSIONER CARON: How appropriate. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Very well said. MS. F ABACHER: Thank you, Commissioners. ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 7:01 p.m. COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION Mark Strain, Chairman These Meeting Notes (due to lack of a quorum) approved by the board on as presented or as corrected Transcript prepared on behalf of Gregory Reporting Service, Inc., by Cherie' R. Nottingham. Page 58