Loading...
CLB Minutes 05/21/2008 R May 21,2008 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida May 21,2008 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractor Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson Richard Joslin Eric Guite' Lee Horn Terry Jerulle Ann Keller Thomas Lykos Michael Boyd Glenn Herriman ALSO PRESENT: Patrick Neale, Attorney for the Board Robert Zachary, Assistant County Attorney Michael Ossorio, Zoning & Land Development Review Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: WEDNESDAY - MAY 21,2008 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: APRIL 16,2008 V. DISCUSSION: VI. NEW BUSINESS: Introduction of new Contractor Licensing Compliance Officer- Rob Ganguli VII. OLD BUSINESS: Calvert Courtney- Reinstatement of Revoked license VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS Case #2008-07 Jefferey Baker d/b/a Change Your Colors, Inc. Case #2008-08 Allan Scott Ashbrook d/b/a Ashbrook Enterprises, Inc. IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: WEDNESDAY JUNE 18, 2008 W. HARMAN TURNER BUILDING, 3RD FLOOR (COMMISSIONERS MEETING ROOM) 3301 E. TAMIAMI TRAIL NAPLES, FL 34104 (COURTHOUSE COMPLEX) May21,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning, everybody. I'd like to welcome you to the meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board. Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this board will need a verbatim record of the proceedings, which is being taken. I'd like to start off with roll call to our newest member to our right. MR. JERULLE: Good morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning. State your name. MR. JERULLE: Terry Jerulle. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Terry, good to have you with us. MR. JERULLE: It's an honor and a privilege. MR. HERRIMAN: Glenn Herriman. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We got a full board. MR. L YKOS: Tom Lykos. MS. KELLER: Ann Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MR. BOYD: Michael Boyd. MR. HORN: Lee Horn. MR. GUITE': Eric Guite'. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's been a while since we've had a full board. That's nice. This is Ann's last meeting with us, unless we can get her to sign a reapplication before she gets out of here today. So we'll see what we can do. But we will miss you. MS. KELLER: Six years is enough. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need -- MS. KELLER: You've done many, many, many more. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've done more, yeah. Yeah, but I get paid more than you do. I'm just kidding. Additions or deletions to the minutes -- or the agenda, I'm sorry. Page 2 May21,2008 MR. JACKSON: Good morning. Ian Jackson, license compliance officer for Collier County. Staff has two changes. Under new business, after the introduction to our new officer, we have a gentleman by the name of Rocky Mains, who is looking to reinstate his license. There's some credit issues that need to be addressed. Case No. 2008-08, Allan Scott Ashbrook will be deleted from the agenda. That was satisfied. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hallelujah. MR. JOSLIN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know how you do it, but thank you for doing it. I need a motion to accept the agenda as amended. MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? MR. L YKOS: Second, Lykos. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. LYKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Done. Minutes of the last meeting. I assume everyone's had a chance to look at those. MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that we approve the minutes to Page 3 May21,2008 the April 16th meeting. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MR. BOYD: Second, Boyd. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. LYKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Done. Discussion. There is none. New minutes -- or new business. Introduction of a new compliance officer. Rob Ganguli? MR. GANGULI: Ganguli, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ganguli. Come on up, Rob. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, while we're waiting on Mr. Ganguli, for the record, Michael Ossorio, Collier County Contractor Licensing Supervisor. Ian's passing out the adds to the agenda. And also, Mr. Chairman, if you please make sure you sign the minutes of last month. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. OSSORIO: And then I'll pick them up. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Rob, welcome. Good to have you with us. MR. GANGULI: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where are you from? MR. GANGULI: Well, I've been in Collier County since 1989. Spent eight years in the Marine Corps and transferred over to contractor licensing from code enforcement where I spent almost two Page 4 May21,2008 years. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I thought I'd seen you before. You've been around. Good to have you with us. MR. GANGULI: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything we can do to help you, we'd be glad to. MR. GANGULI: Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. MR. JOSLIN: I like your shirt, by the way. MR. GANGULI: Who said that? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He still looks like ajarhead, doesn't he? MR. GANGULI: Always a jarhead. MR. JOSLIN: I'm an ex-Marine also, so Semper Fi. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm Army, so that's why I tease about the jarhead. Good to have you with us. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, we'll try to break him of those habits soon enough, so we'll see. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It won't work. You won't break him at all. Also under new business, the one you added, Rocky Mains. Rocky, if you would come up to this podium, please, sir. I need for you to state your name and I'll have the lady right next to you swear youm. MR. MAINS: It's Orval Mains. O-R-V-A-L. M-A-I-N-S. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, tell us what we're doing, Rocky. Do I -- I think I remember you. MR. MAINS: I've been here in Collier County for a long time. MR. JOSLIN: Just for the record, I know this gentleman very well. He's a pool contractor for years right here in Collier County. Page 5 May21, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Didn't you do also the pools and the water over there at Waterside Shops? MR. MAINS: No, sir. I didn't. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No? Okay. Okay, tell us what the problem is, Rocky. MR. MAINS: Well, I had a business partner, which we didn't get along because of the fact that he sold his house here in Naples and moved up to Chipley, Florida, which was quite a ways away. We tried to do it, keep our business going. And he was in charge of all the bookkeeping and all that, and I was down here on construction and sales, doing -- basically running it by myself. But in October we came to a decision that, you know, I was going to try to get him out of the business. So I was able to do that in October of 2007. But I had no idea that he did not renew our license in 2007. So basically I've been working without a license in 2007. I've had all kinds of advertising trucks on my signs (sic), signs in the front of the construction sites, and I never knew that, you know, my license was not renewed at that time. But once I did find out I came up and seen Mike at the contractor licensing, and he said well, you can go in front of the board, but he recommended that I just go take my business law test. So at that time I got my books, scheduled my test, went up, took my test, passed the test, came back to Collier County, and there was a judgment on my credit report which was from back 2002 when I was married to my ex-wife. And at that time she had run up that credit card and I purposely was not going to settle that credit card right there. But it's coming back to haunt me right now, because the judgment that's there, you know, I was told by Mike that, you know, if you have a judgment you're not going to renew my license. But I've been operating in Collier County as a licensed contractor since 1993. You know, my Signature Waterfalls, my contractor's license before that is impeccable. I paid all my bills, you Page 6 May21, 2008 know. At the time when I did get my license for Signature Waterfalls, the -- Maggie up there, she was able to put my business partner's credit on it. And being I was the qualifier with the experience and all that, I was given a license, an occupational license at that time. But now that it's delinquent and I have gone through all this testing and everything else, I'm just looking to get reactivated so I can get back to work. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wow. MS. KELLER: It's always really hard when we just get passed this without having time to look at it. So I'm just noticing a lien and a judgment. So there's -- MR. MAINS: That was a tax lien that I had which got paid off. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hold that microphone down a little. MS. KELLER: And the judgment is a result of your divorce? MR. MAINS: Credit card. It's an old credit card that my wife and I had. MS. KELLER: But it's the result of the divorce judgment from the judge, right, that you're required to pay this? MR. MAINS: Yes. MS. KELLER: Under the settlement? MR. MAINS: Yes. MS. KELLER: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See, this is what happens when you let your license lapse. MR. MAINS: Well, I had no idea that it wasn't. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I know. But yeah, you can keep on working and have a few problems and we never see it -- MR. MAINS: I understand that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- until it lapses and boom, here you come. MR. MAINS: Right. But as soon as I did find out I took the Page 7 May21,2008 actions to go get it taken care of as far as taking the test, going up there and passing my test. I mean, I've been out of school for 32 years. And it's not an easy test. MS. KELLER: And what's the tax lien? Is it released? MR. MAINS: Yes, ma'am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do we have a copy of that in here? MR. JOSLIN: No. MR. MAINS: I don't know. You have my whole credit report in there. MR. L YKOS: The report summary shows that it's released. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does it? MR. L YKOS: And the date of release on it, yeah. MR. NEALE: And if I may just remind the board of this standard that -- for financial responsibility that you're to look at. It's under 61.GA-15.006 of the Florida Administrative Code, which is referred to in the Collier County Ordinance. And financial responsibility is defined as the ability to safeguard that the public will not sustain economic loss resulting from the contractor's inability to pay his lawful contractual obligations. The financial responsibility grounds on which the board shall refuse to qualify an applicant shall include: Failure to submit any of the items required in the application; B, the existence within the last five years preceding the application of an unsatisfied court judgment rendered against the applicant based upon the failure of the applicant to pay its just obligations to parties with whom the applicant conducted business as a contractor; an unfavorable credit report or history as indicated by any of the documents submitted; a determination by the board that the applicant lacks the financial stability necessary to assure compliance with the standards set forth in this rule. As guidelines for the determination, the board shall consider the applicant's responses to the questions in the application and the Page 8 May21,2008 financial information submitted. So those are the main tests. MR. MAINS: If! may, the credit card didn't have anything to do with the business. It's just personal. MR. NEALE: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, and we see that with your credit report. The company credit report is clean. MR. MAINS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There's no issues at all. It's just your personal. MR. MAINS: You know, at the time when I did get my license, I transferred the swimming pool contractor's license over to the waterfall occupational license. I was given -- we were given the license because of the fact that I had a partner which had a good credit score. And I do at this time also have a partner that has a good credit score. And this was back in 2007 that he became an officer in the business before all this came up anyway. MR. JOSLIN: So do you currently have a partner now? MR. MAINS: Yes, I do. MR. JOSLIN: You do. MR. MAINS: Yes, I do. His report is in there also. MR. JOSLIN: What license are we talking about here to reinstate for -- MR. MAINS: It's an occupational license. I mean, I build waterfalls. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, there's no such thing as an occupational license. MR. MAINS: Well, my trade was swimming pool contractor. MR. JOSLIN: Right. That's the license I believe we're talking about, right? MR. OSSORIO: No, we're talking about two different things. One, he's getting confused with an occupational license. The Page 9 May21,2008 Chairman's actually correct. It's called a business tax receipt, and it's just a tax. His water -- he has a pool license; am I correct? MR. MAINS: Yes, sir. MR. OSSORIO: That you let lapse. MR. MAINS: Right. MR. OSSORIO: You're not going to get that back. MR. MAINS: No, I'm not. MR. OSSORIO: The only thing you want to get back, the business procedure test would be the waterfall contracting. So the only thing we're looking at today is to reinstate -- not reinstate but to waiver the requirements of the -- his credit score so he can apply for the license. He meets the criteria. Remember, there's three things: One is passing the test, two is the experience, and three is credit. And unfortunately my office could not make a determination of his credit so we forwarded his application to the board per the statutes. With that said, is that the only thing he's looking for is to waiver his credit so he can go apply for the waterfall license, which is the business procedure test only, not the pools. MR. JOSLIN: Which he's already taken and passed. MR. OSSORIO: He let that thing lapse. I don't think he has nothing (sic) to do with his pool contracting at all. MR. MAINS: No, I just took the business procedure test and I passed that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What's your partner's name? MR. MAINS: Diego Toro. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You say his is in here? MR. MAINS: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because I'm not finding it. Someone else comes across it, let me know. MR. JOSLIN: How was that business set up, Mr. Mains? Is it Page 10 May21,2008 50/50 or 51? Who owns more? MR. MAINS: It's 50 -- 51/50 (sic). MR. JOSLIN: 51/50? MR. MAINS: Yes, sir. MR. JOSLIN: You are the primary? MR. MAINS: Yes, sir. MS. KELLER: Did you just open this company? Because I just MR. MAINS: No, it's been since 2004. MS. KELLER: I'm looking at your trade payment information, and it doesn't look like there's been any activity. You said it's a clean report, but it looks like it's not much of a report. I don't really -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I just looked at any past dues or liens. I didn't see there wasn't any activity. MR. MAINS: No, Signature Waterfalls is impeccable. We-- MS. KELLER: The high credit has been $700. So it's not much of a -- the business doesn't appear to have much credit history. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm stumped. The guy's been around a long time, he's well known in the community, but we've got some blockades. MR. NEALE: Well, you know, as I read from the state administrative code, the primary tests are will he be able to pay his obligations as a contractor. Those are the primary ones to look to. And so, you know, that's the test that the board has to look at, is has this business and the contractor paid their contractual obligations for their contracting business consistently in the past and does it appear that from their record that they will be able to do so in the future. The payment of the personal items, while interesting, are not really directly related to his contracting history because he's been in business for more than one year. Page 11 May21,2008 Ifhe had been in business for less than one year, then the primary thing the board has to look at is his personal. MS. KELLER: But what if you have a credit report that gives you nothing? It says that there is print and publication and advertising credit. MR. MAINS: That would be the Home mag. I've been in the Home Magazine. I basically pay as I go. Rook (phonetic) Brothers. I've done thousands and thousands of monies with them. Jobs that, you know, I paid for. I deal with all the contractors -- or all the supply houses here, plumbing, Homer Express. Vehicle, you know, vehicles we have, insurance, everything. Workers' comp, everything. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio, why was this not held until next month? MR. OSSORIO: Well, to Mr. Mains' problem is, is that he did come forward -- did we issue you a citation for working without a license? MR. MAINS: Yes you did, and I paid it that day. MR. OSSORIO: So we technically put him out of business. I guess I don't want to use that term, but we had to issue a stop work order per the ordinance and help him facilitate to get the testing. Unfortunately when he took the test and he applied for the license, there was an issue with his credit, so we had to forward it to the board. And fortunately there was ample time that we could add him to the agenda. The agenda obviously wasn't that large today. And I don't foresee any kind of issues with his personal credit. But unfortunately we live in a world of personal and his business credit, sometimes they co-mingle. Pat Neale is actually correct, we should separate the two. But Mr. Mains will probably tell you that his personal issues is probably his business too as well. And his credit report on his business is really non-existent. Page 12 May21,2008 So we couldn't come to a determination, so we forwarded it to the board. We could have waited for another month, but that would not have done Mr. Mains any good for a month of sitting on his hands doing nothing. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Mains, let me ask you a question. Are you acceptable or are you willing to bring any kind of proof that this other civil court judgment is going to be remedied, paid off? Or are you going to do this or is this something you're not -- MR. MAINS: I will do that. I mean, it was personal that I wasn't going to pay that credit card. MR. JOSLIN: No, I understand. MR. MAINS: But ifit means me getting a license and moving on with my business, then I'll do whatever it takes. MR. JOSLIN: This is not something that we can physically demand, I'm just asking the question if you're willing to do this. Because this seems to be the item that's -- if the tax lien has been paid off, then this is the only item that's really detrimental to you. MR. MAINS: Right. I mean, I do not have the money to go pay the whole judgment. MR. JOSLIN: Right. MR. MAINS: You know, I'd be willing to make payments with them, set it up and bring in, you know, the paperwork from the lawyer stating that yeah, I'm making the payments on it. MR. JOSLIN: What kind of time frame would you be looking at do you think to do that, honestly? MR. MAINS: I would make sure that, you know, if I'm in business and I'm operating, within three months I'll take care of the judgment. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. So I'd be willing to make a motion here, unless there's any other questions. MS. KELLER: The other option is getting your business partner that has the good credit rating to take the test and get the license. But Page 13 May21, 2008 MR. MAINS: Yeah, I mean, he is Spanish but he speaks good English. He's been here for quite awhile -- MS. KELLER: He can take the test in Spanish. MR. MAINS: But I'm the one that knows the trade. I mean, I'm the one that's been doing all the business. You know, ifhe was to take the test, it may take him quite a few times to do it. It's not out of the question. But, you know, I've been the qualifier since '93, you know. And I again went and took the business and law test and passed it, you know. That wasn't an easy feat, you know, it's a hard test. But I mean, I still want the control as being a qualifier in my business. You know, if down the road I sell the business to him, then at that point he would have to go get his license, take the test. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? MR. BOYD: Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Yes. MR. BOYD: What you're telling us is we can't hold his personal financial problems against him in improving his license; is that correct? MR. NEALE: Well, you -- it's certainly something you can look to. But in point of fact, actually, you know, the way our ordinance reads and the way the state administrative code reads, the thing that is the primary thing to look at is whether he will pay his contracting debts. And the contracting information is what's relevant. The fact that you have a credit report on the qualifier for a business organization that's been in business for more than one year, it mayor may not be relevant that it should even be in there, because the ordinance only requires a credit report on the individual if the business has been in business for less than a year. MR. HERRIMAN: I don't see why we should hold up his license because of a bill that his ex-wife stuck him with. MR. JOSLIN: I agree. Page 14 May21,2008 MS. KELLER: Well, I think the biggest problem here is that in this environment you have to have access to credit. You might need access to credit running a business. And -- MR. MAINS: I do understand that. MS. KELLER: -- your business does not have any credit history where any bank would lend you any money. There's nothing here in your business account. So we have to look to your personal account because that's how you're going to access credit in this kind of business environment that we're in today. So you've been in a great market, you've been in a very easy business financially, and now that it's more difficult you have to have access to credit. And I think that's why we need to look to his personal credit situation, to say that if he needs a bridge at some point in his business is he going to have access to it. And I say no because of that. MR. MAINS: But I have a business partner. And I've been dealing with Wachovia since we started the business -- MS. KELLER: Well, then he needs to have a license. MR. MAINS: I have a good relationship there. Pardon me? MS. KELLER: Then he needs to have the license or have some sort of credit report from the company that would be accessing -- MR. MAINS: But back in 2004 with my other business partner I was given the license. Not through my credit. They didn't ask me to go get one because my credit was bad and I knew that, but we were given it through my business partner's credit report. And just -- you know, and beings that it relapsed and he didn't re-sign it -- or renew our license here, now I'm having to go through all this again, like starting all over here. You know, but I do have a business partner with a good credit score. And if in fact I do need a loan from the bank I could get a loan from the bank through my business partner's credit. I mean, he's 50/50 with myself, you know. He does all the work Page 15 May21, 2008 just like I do. MS. KELLER: What is the -- Mr. O'Neale (sic), what is the terms of holding -- the license holder again? Just so we can go over, you know, what are the responsibilities of the license holder. MR. NEALE: Well, you know, the responsibilities of the license holder is, you know, he is fully responsible for the debts of the business or for any -- not really fully responsible for the debts of the business, what he's responsible for is the operation of the business. The business itself is responsible for the debts of the business. That's why you form a corporation, you know, is simply because the corporation is responsible for the debts. But he is responsible for the activities of the business. And he is the one whose license will come up in front of here if he does not perform within the boundaries of his license. And the board has at that point the remedies available to the board ifhe's found in violation, which includes restitution, you know, as one of the remedies. MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion, ifthere's not any other question or debate. Mr. Mains, I've known you for years and you can understand the situation. I think you feel the feelings of the board. With the credit the way it stands it's very difficult for us to just turn it over and issue this license. What I will say to you, though, is that if you can bring us proof that this tax lien is paid off and also if you can bring something that is showing that you're going to pay this other debt off, we'll table this particular matter until -- from 30 days from now, or till the next meeting, if you can bring us that. Then we'll re-look at it again. MR. MAINS: Does that mean that I'm not going to be in business for 30 more days? MR. JOSLIN: That means you're not in business now, yes, sir. I don't feel as though this board is going to issue this license at Page 16 May21,2008 this moment under the circumstances. There's too many questions. I'll have to make a motion to deny at this time, with that criteria in mind. I may even say that if -- in the motion, if you can bring this information in sooner and present it to contractor licensing, they may have the power to be able to go ahead and issue this license without coming back before the board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You could make a motion contingent upon the actions that you want to happen, and then when they happen the county has the authority to go ahead and proceed at that point. MR. JOSLIN: Basically that's what I'm trying to say. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So if you want to change your motion, you can. MR. JOSLIN: I'll change it to say that if -- yes, if you can bring in proof or show the contractor licensing supervisor that this judgment is paid off, the -- or not the judgment but the civil court tax lien is paid off. MS. KELLER: That's been paid. That's released. MR. GUITE': The taxes are paid. MS. KELLER: It's the judgment. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But we don't have any-- MR. JOSLIN: We don't have any definite proof. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's only his word that it's been paid. MR. BOYD: No, it's in the tax lien -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's what I kept asking for. MS. KELLER: Right here, tax lien released -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Released, okay. MS. KELLER: -- in 2006. Right? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We missed that. MS. KELLER: So it's just the one judgment. MR. JOSLIN: Well, then under the circumstances then, if the board is not allowed in a sense to look at a personal credit history, Page 17 May21,2008 which this judgment has no bearing on, on his business practices, I'll have to change that motion then and make a motion to waive your right to this credit report and issue you your license. MR. L YKOS: I'll second that motion, Lykos. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, discussion. Were you asking for a license or -- to proceed, Mr. Ossorio? MR. OSSORIO: Under the code it tells you the contractor licensing supervisor will review all applications, and if he's unable to come to a conclusion of the license then it gets forwarded to the board. And if you're telling me that his credit report meets the standard, then we will proceed with his license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's all we're doing. MR. OSSORIO: Exactly right. That's it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. L YKOS: I understand your concern about his ability to get -- personally be able to obtain credit. But I think if you look at every company that ever started in this country, if they didn't start because they couldn't obtain credit before they started their business, there would probably be a lot of people that are not in business right now that turned out to be very successful. I don't think we should limit somebody's ability to run a business because they can't get personal credit. You know, I think when you start a company you might not have access to credit. You might have to just, you know, eat hot dogs and beans for a while and save up your cash and show that you have a viable business and then be able to go get credit. So I don't think it's a precursor to not being able to run a successful business. MR. JOSLIN: And I wasn't aware when I made the motion that the release was in here already for the tax lien. MS. KELLER: Well, being a consumer on the board, I feel the opposite way. MR. L YKOS: I understand, I understand. Page 18 May21,2008 MS. KELLER: I feel like ifl'm giving my down payment to somebody, I don't want to think that they're living, you know, on beans or whatever because they can't make their payments unless they get money from me or the next person they're contracting with. MR. MAINS: I'm not that type of contractor-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hang on. MS. KELLER: So it's just a difference of a point of view. MR. L YKOS: I understand. MS. KELLER: I want a contractor that has a great credit report, and their business has an established credit report. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I agree with Mrs. Keller. Of course I'm going to miss -- she's a financial analysis -- or consultant, so she does know what she's talking about. I'm concerned also, that goes with that, this isn't a new business. This man's been around a long time. And I'm not happy with the credit reports I got. Whoever did this credit report, it stinks. There's not enough information. If I had my druthers, I would table it for next month and get more information. But any other -- MR. MAINS: That is one of the agencies that I was given a-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I know. MR. MAINS: -- piece of paper to go see here. I was recommended -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's not your fault. I just wish I had-- anymore comments? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, there's a motion and a second on the floor to approve the credit report. Call for the vote. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. Page 19 May21,2008 MR. HORN: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those opposed? MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Just two of us. So you passed, 7 -2. You did well. MR. MAINS: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: For your information and anyone else that's here, all of your files are here. Do not go to the county today. You can go see Maggie tomorrow and get things rolling. MR. MAINS: Okay, thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you understand that-- MR. MAINS: Believe me, I understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- we don't have any requirements at all, do we? MR. JOSLIN: No requirements, no. I'm just saying that this old pool builder, I'm sure he'll do the right thing. MR. MAINS: Yes, sir. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do well. Old business. Calvert Courtney, reinstatement of revoked license. I need for you to -- if both of you would state your names and I'll have you both sworn in at the same time. MR. COURTNEY: I'm Calvert Newton Courtney the second. MR. SCHNEIDER: Michael Schneider, attorney for Mr. Courtney. (Speakers were duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just for -- Cherie', just for your edification, we normally don't swear in attorneys because they are Page 20 May21, 2008 friends of the court. However, we know this case and he is -- MR. SCHNEIDER: I may have some testimony. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- going to have testimony. So if they testify, we have to. Gentlemen, good morning. MR. SCHNEIDER: Good morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, what are we going to do today? MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, last we were here, as you all recall-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to have you step closer to that mic. MR. SCHNEIDER: Last we were here, as you all recall, we requested that the board reinstate Mr. Courtney's license. And you put forth the fact that he needed to show some significant progress prior to coming back before the board. Well, he has in fact done that. And I have obtained releases that we provided to your office. He's paid off the investigative costs; he's been able to do that. He's paid off I think almost every person of which the board was concerned completely. But I think -- is there anyone that isn't on -- MR. COURTNEY: There were four actions required by you guys, and all of those have been done. And in this package is the evidence of that. There were some releases of liens, satisfaction of vendors. And it's all contained here, even down to the receipt for recording the release of lien. So it was by really a miracle that we've been able to do this, and I hope you guys will review it again. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: For those of you on the board, it's in tab number one. This was a case that we had a little over a year ago. And you'll see the order of the board starting on page number two of the things that he had to do, which was -- okay, restitution in the amount of $6,350 to the homeowner. MR. COURTNEY: The evidence of that being done is in section Page 21 May21,2008 two behind the credit reports. That would be to Ms. Mondy Isaac. You can see a copy of the cashier's check, as well as her signed release. There was no lien in that case so there was no -- wouldn't be any evidence to fixing that. But the copy of the check and her signed release is there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I got that one. MR. COURTNEY: The second one is the payment of$600. And this tied to the same man, Mr. Ricot Dieujuste that one of my vendors had put a lien on. We satisfied that lien and have got the waiver recorded with the county. Mr. Ricot Dieujuste called Mike and confirmed that he had received his copy of that. And we also here have the copy of the $600 check, which I never did understand why I paid that, for Mr. Dieujuste to repair his irrigation system. But it's all -- that's been done. There was also the requirement of a $2,000 investigative fee be paid to Collier County, and the receipt from the Board of County Commissioners is in that section two, as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And Mr. Lori (sic), for your edification, what happened, we heard this case over a year ago and he got in some trouble with child support -- MR. COURTNEY: That's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- payments and spent a year in prison. So that's his reason for the fact that it didn't happen prior to that. I'm really -- go ahead. MR. JOSLIN: I'm surprised he paid this. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I mean, I'm just -- MR. JOSLIN: Since last month. Wasn't it last month you were here? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR. JOSLIN: I do have one other question, though. There's a promissory note in here for something. What is this? Page 22 May21,2008 MR. COURTNEY: There is. In my personal return there is an indebtedness for $11,100. And this is Winfield Building and Development Corporation. And we have come to an agreement to pay above the judgment in the lien amount, including their attorney's fees. We've paid money down and made monthly payments on this. And Winfield is very satisfied. They're getting more than the judgment, $5,000 more -- $4,000 more. So they're happy and satisfied with this. It's not in a corporate return -- or in corporate bureau, it's in my personal. There's one other item in my personal credit that is a tax lien from 1995. It is a mistake and there is evidence of that mistake in Section 7. Everything is accounted for. When you guys look at my credit report, you're going to see a very unusual set of circumstances. My father is in bankruptcy; has the same name that I do. All of his stuff is appearing, including his Social Security number, on my credit report. And I have included his bankruptcy filing papers from the 12th Judicial Court that show all of those accounts. They're all here. So things that are being put in my name are actually in my dad's. He lives in Palmetto. His address is even listed on my credit report. It's very unusual. Mr. Schneider and I have been through this. I have an attorney that specializes in this that's telling me it's going to take 30 months to fix my credit report because of these mistakes. It's all here. MR. SCHNEIDER: It's all in there. And you can verify all that in the credit report by the Social Security numbers. It's fairly clear once you look at it carefully that the tax lien is his father's tax lien. And it also shows that it was satisfied, I believe. MR. COURTNEY: That it was paid. And we're not even sure where that came from. But it's all here, every bit of piece of paper that you need to prove. I have 24 paid as agreed accounts in my return. Page 23 May21,2008 MR. JOSLIN: I can understand exactly what you're saying because I have a son that's named after me. You and your senior, second, third and fourth. MR. COURTNEY: I have a Calvert Courtney, Calvert N. Courtney, II, and Calvert N. Courtney, III. Unfortunately, Calvert N. Courtney, III is in prison. And one thing that I brought to show you how things can get mixed up, if you look at this report on my son, it reads Calvert N. Courtney, my father's name, my son's date of birth and my Social Security number. So there's a lot of room with having the names the same. I won't do that again. But I've made a -- I've really worked hard to get this straightened out with you guys. I'm grateful that you'll even hear me. This is so important to me. This is all I've done all my life. I don't know how to retrain at 52 years old. So I'm hoping that you can see the intent here. I've done this for many years with a great history and over 700 satisfied clients. A series of events unusual happened. We've corrected them, repaired the damage, and I'd like to ask that you guys let me go forward. MR. SCHNEIDER: And if I can, you're correct, sir, we were here, I think, it was just a little more than a month ago. And the order that the board issued was that respondent to demonstrate some significant progress towards compliance with the previous orders. And that's the reason why we came back. Because he has worked basically every day for the last month to try to clear this up. I've been working with him. He's worked very hard at it. And he's made, like I agree with you, amazmg progress. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What form was that that had the name, the Social Security and the birth dates? MR. COURTNEY: Go back to number seven. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that the Sheriffs Office? Page 24 May21,2008 MR. COURTNEY: That is. And then right behind that you're going to see something there from a group of attorneys that shows up on the credit bureau saying that I owe them. And I don't, it's my son. He was born in 1980. This is an arrest report for possession. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And it's your Social Security number? MR. COURTNEY: Yes, somewhere on here. I'm not sure if it's this page or the next one, it shows that it is me. MR. SCHNEIDER: It's right here on the first page. MR. COURTNEY: And the C635114 is my driver's license number as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Government at its finest, right? Boy, if that isn't a lesson not -- come up and name your sons -- give them their own names. MR. COURTNEY: Amen. MR. JOSLIN: Not even close to what yours is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I carry my father's name. You know, why couldn't you get a little original? You notice the women don't do that to their daughters. MR. NEALE: That's true. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have to congratulate you. I didn't think you could pull this off. MR. JOSLIN: I didn't either. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: When I heard you were coming, I went oh, what now. MR. COURTNEY: I'm sorry you think that way. I didn't either. It was really -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I didn't think you could pull it off. MR. COURTNEY: It was hard work. MR. JERULLE: Did you borrow the money to pay these people off? MR. COURTNEY: You know, it's a combination. There was the sale of an asset, a lot of hard work and a very small loan. Page 25 May21,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: His attorney's still here, so he's obviously paying his bills. Comment, Mr. Ossorio? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Courtney has worked extremely hard. I believe Tom Lykos said last month that if you're serious about getting your license reinstated, then you should pay everyone off. And I guess that's what he's done. Exhibit 1 through 7. I do have some issues about him in this environment in the next six months with this downturn in construction. Weare in support of very limited reinstatement of his license. In other words, if you did foresee that you issued him a license, we would want to see a six-month probation within October. Not only a six-month probation, but he would have to go in front of the licensing board to tell how he is doing in October. We would put him on the agenda and he would communicate to the licensing board that all is well. Not even to my office, but I think he should go in front of your board to go over, you know, what's he doing, how's he doing, is his promissory note getting paid, and there's no other complaints. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, the comment I would make with that, if anyone can make money in this environment, he can. Because he doesn't have toys left and he doesn't have any overhead. So there's really no excuse that you can't make a profit. It's the guys with the toys and the overhead that are dying on the vine. MR. L YKOS: Can I ask you a question, please. On the promissory note just before the number three tab, the one to WBDC, it says that your first payment's due May 20th. MR. SCHNEIDER: He made that early. He made the first payment I think it was a month ago, and he made the second payment already. MR. NEALE: There's a check copy in there, I believe. MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, he's actually ahead. Page 26 May21, 2008 MR. COURTNEY: Mr. Lykos wrote an article -- or not an article but it was an ad under your name recently that had an effect on me. I'm going to do some things different for awhile, while my overhead is low. I'm going to do things with no deposits. I'm going to do the work and invoice it at the end. When my problem happened we had a lot of open accounts and a lot of accrued cash. And this is where the problem happened. And I'm going to change that for a season. My overhead has gone from $180,000 a week to nothing, really. And I'm going to take this opportunity to structure my business a little differently. Maybe that's wisdom that comes with getting in my fifties. But I have an opportunity here to change the way I operate because I financially can't. What Mr. Dickinson (sic) said was right. So I believe that the report that you get from me, and if you agree to do this on a monthly basis here, will be a positive report. I really do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, no deposits will sell you work. I get jobs that I'm not the low bid on, but I'm the guy that didn't want a deposit. Nobody wants to give a deposit to anybody in this climate. MR. COURTNEY: I think that's right on the money. MR. JOSLIN: I believe I was the one last month that made this motion to have you go back and do all this homework, and now apparently you have done very well. I have to commend you myself. So I'm under the presumption to make a motion to reinstate Mr. Courtney's license with some criteria behind it saying that you will be placed on one-year probation and to bring before contractor licensing supervisor a copy of the credit history and how you are doing. And after each -- in that six-month period there will be a meeting where you'll come back before this board to just bring us up to date as far as how you're progressing. MR. L YKOS: Can we ask for a P&L to balance sheet at that point? I'd like to make sure that we're not creating debt. So if we can Page 27 May21,2008 make a P&L to balance sheet a requisite to that meeting after six months. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you can put this report together, you can put together one of those. MR. COURTNEY: If it'll save me the fees ofa CPA, I'll be glad to. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Quick Books, you can do it in a heartbeat. MR. JOSLIN: I'll add that to the motion. MR. COURTNEY: I have one other question before you make that final motion. There is a landscape, a paver brick segmental paving license, and I recently took the test for irrigation. The reason I'm asking this is when I do a paver driveway, I move irrigation. I'm trying to become completely compliant. In my former county, Manatee, when you were a landscape contractor I had what you call an unrestricted license. I could do everything. I could even do paver brick if it was not more than 50 percent of the value of the total job. Here I now need -- for my work I now need a fencing license, an irrigation license, a landscape license and a segmental paving license. So I'm attempting to get compliant with you guys because I touch the water distribution system. So I have taken the test and passed last week, the irrigation for Collier County. And I have -- Maggie has the package that I'm requesting that license in addition to the reinstatement of the landscape and the paver brick. MR. JOSLIN: I don't think at this time that I'm willing to do that, not until you get through the probationary period. Now, if you have the credentials as far as the test you passed and all the information in the packet that you could provide to contractor licensing and they approve it then, it's not a problem. But as far as this license goes, we're going to reinstate what you Page 28 May21,2008 have. MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, there's two issues. One is the landscaping and then the other is brick and paver. So if you approve his reinstatement, you're going to be reinstating his two certificates, landscaping and brick paving. His irrigation is totally separate. He's going to have to -- that's going to stand on his own merit. Obviously his credit won't be an issue since you're reviewing his credit today. But he's going to have to show experience and fill the application out, and we'll do that on our end. MR. JOSLIN: We'll put that in your hands then for that part of it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I have a motion. Do I have a second? MR. HERRIMAN: Second, Herriman. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. LYKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wish you well. MR. COURTNEY: Thank you, gentlemen. MR. L YKOS: And lady. MR. COURTNEY: And lady. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, she's staying. Page 29 May21,2008 Anybody can pull it off -- I can't believe he did it. MR. JOSLIN: I can't either. I'm glad he did. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If anyone can pull it off, he can pull it off. We'll see. It's rare. I know, there's more. Hopefully he takes care of those. Public hearings. We're good to go. Jefferey Baker, are you present? MR. BAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Jefferey, what I'm going to do is I'll have you come to this podium to start with. Ian, you're going to present the case? MR. JACKSON: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Ian Jackson will represent the county. Just to explain to you what happens here. It's a quasi-judicial system, kind of like what you see on TV, okay? I'm not Judge Judy, though. She is good. But I understand she hangs out at Joey D's now. But anyway, what will happen is you will make an opening statement. Don't get into the case, just kind of give us a quick overview of where we're going. County will make an opening statement. And then the county will present their case, which may include witnesses. You can cross-examine or ask questions of those witnesses. Then -- MR. NEALE: Actually, it's in the reverse. County goes first and then he goes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, on the opening statement? Okay. MR. NEALE: And then presentation of the case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. I got the county right on the presentation of the case. I got the other two switched around. MR. NEALE: Yeah, because the county presents its case -- or makes its opening statement, then he makes his, and then the county Page 30 May21, 2008 present his and he gets to respond. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And then you'll present your case to include witnesses, if you want. Then there will be closing statements by both of you. Then we will close the hearing, which is basically we're finished listening to you but you get to hear us talk about it. And then we'll render a decision. Got it? MR. BAKER: Got it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. With that, before we get started, I need a motion to -- someone to introduce the file, the packet. MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MR. HERRIMAN: Second, Herriman. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's the packet that you got. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. LYKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Make sure you're looking at number 07.08, remember, got taken care of already. And I need to have both of you sworn in. (All speakers were duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And for the record, state your name, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: Jefferey Baker. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And Ian? MR. JACKSON: Ian Jackson. Page 31 May21,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very well, Mr. Jackson, the floor is yours. MR. JACKSON: Thank you. This case involves lack of Worker's Compo coverage provided by Mr. Baker to two of his employees. I spoke with Mr. Baker this morning and I believe, if I'm not mistaken, to expedite the process Mr. Baker is going to stipulate to the charge. And with that, I can give the floor to Mr. Baker for confirmation on that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Baker? MR. BAKER: Guilty. I mean -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pull the mic up a little bit. Okay. So you are stipulating, saying you did not have coverage and you are guilty? MR. BAKER: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. That -- I'd like to know a little bit more, though. MR. JOSLIN: Yeah, could we hear just a little bit about what happened, why? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We need more than that. MR. JACKSON: Sure, I'll elaborate. I was patrolling through the neighborhood of Victoria Park and observed two people painting a house, asked them who they worked for, and they told me they worked for Mr. Baker. Pointed me to the direction of where Mr. Baker lives, where I met with Mr. Baker in his front yard, where I confirmed that yes, he is in contract with that homeowner, and yes, they are working for him and no, they were not covered. I looked in our database, saw that Mr. Baker was issued a previous citation for no Workers' Comp coverage. And I believe that afternoon I met with Mr. Baker at my office and gave him the notice of hearing for today. Page 32 May21,2008 I wish it were more, but in a nutshell that's it. MS. KELLER: Fairly simple. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Response, Mr. Baker? MR. BAKER: I mean, I don't have a response. I mean, my response is basically greed. I mean, I tried getting away with something and I didn't. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: When's the last time you had Workers' Comp coverage? MR. BAKER: I never have. I'd say 90 percent of the time I work by myself. If it gets too big or too scary, I get help. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How many employees do you normally have? MR. BAKER: Me. Normally I do 90 percent of the work. I normally do fancier stuff than painting outside of houses. But with lack of work, I was taking anything. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See, but here's the problem. You're talking -- there's three members of this board that are consumers, the rest are contractors. You're the guy that takes jobs away from us because you're low bid because you don't pay insurance. You really make me angry. MR. BAKER: I understand. MS. KELLER: Well, you would make me angry as a consumer, too. Because if somebody's doing the dangerous job that you don't want to do at my house and they fall, they're going to sue me, they're going to sue you, and who's going to pay the hospital bills? You know, it's stupidity. Not only greed, it's stupidity for yourself, your own financial situation and also the people you work for. MR. JERULLE: I have a question. How long have you been in business? MR. BAKER: Eight years. MR. JERULLE: And never have had Workmen's Comp? Page 33 May21, 2008 MR. BAKER: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any more to present? MR. JACKSON: Nothing to present. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have any more to present? MR. BAKER: I'm just -- no. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: County's -- well, we'll get to that at the end. Closing statement? MR. JACKSON: I have no closing statement. MR. BAKER: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a motion to close public hearing? MR. JOSLIN: So moved, close the public hearing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MR. BOYD: Second, Boyd. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Gentlemen, you may sit down. Okay, it's a no-brainer on what we do first is determine guilty or not guilty. Then we discuss the actions we want to take against him. MR. NEALE: Mr. Dickson? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. NEALE: Strictly for the benefit of the new member, why don't I go through the charge to the board and we'll -- Page 34 May21, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And so what we'll do first is the charge itself. And each time this happens -- just so you know, Mr. Neale represents us. Mr. Zachary represents the county and the County Commissioners. They keep us both out of trouble. So with that, we always have Mr. Neale put us on the fine line on charges. And if you'll do that, sir. MR. NEALE: Sure. In this case the board shall ascertain in its deliberations that fundamental fairness and due process have been afforded to the respondent. However, pursuant to Section 22-202(G)(5) of the Collier County Ordinance, the formal Rules of Evidence as set out in the Florida Statutes shall not apply. The board shall consider solely evidence presented at the hearing in the consideration of this matter. The board shall exclude from its deliberations irrelevant, immaterial and cumulative testimony. It shall admit and consider all other evidence of a type commonly relied upon by a reasonably prudent person in the conduct of their affairs. This is whether or not the evidence so admitted would be admissible in a court of law or equity. Hearsay may be used to explain or supplement any other evidence in this type of case, but by itself it is not sufficient to support a finding in this case unless it would be admissible over objection in a civil court. The standard of proof in the type of case where a respondent may lose his privileges to practice his profession is that the evidence presented by the complainant must prove the complainant's case in a clear and convincing manner. The burden of proof on the complainant is a larger burden than the preponderance of evidence standard normal in a civil case. The standard, however, for sanctions other than those that would remove his license is that of a preponderance of the evidence. The Page 35 May21, 2008 standard and evidence are to be weighed solely as to the charges set out in the complaint as Ordinance 90-105, Section 4.1.6 of the Collier County Code of Ordinances; that is, that the respondent disregarded or violated in the performance of his contracting business in Collier County any of the building, safety, health, insurance or Workers Compensation laws of the State of Florida or the ordinances of this county. In order to support a finding that the respondent is in violation of the ordinance, the board must find facts that show the violations were actually committed by the respondent. The facts must also show to a clear and convincing standard if the license is to be removed that the legal conclusion that the respondent was in violation of the relevant sections of 90-105, as amended. These charges are the only ones that the board may decide upon, as these are the only ones to which the respondent has had the opportunity to prepare a defense. The damages found must be directly related to these charges and may not be for matters unrelated to the charge. The decision made by this board today shall be stated orally at this hearing and is effective upon being read by the board. The respondent, if found in violation, has certain appeal rights to this board, the courts and the State Construction Industry Licensing Board, as set out in the Collier County Ordinance in the Florida Statutes and Rules. If the board is unable to issue a decision immediately following the hearing because of questions of law or other matters of such a nature that a decision may not be made at this hearing, the board may withhold its decision until a subsequent meeting. The board shall vote upon the evidence presented on all areas, and if it finds the respondent in violation, adopt the administrative complaint. The board shall also make findings of fact and conclusions of Page 36 May21,2008 law in support of the charges set out in the administrative complaint. And now the board will enter into deliberation on whether the respondent is in fact in violation. MR. JERULLE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion on counts. There's only one count, 4.1.6, which is on the first page there. Any discussion or a motion? MR. JOSLIN: The discussion would be that there is no doubt that the gentleman's guilty. He's already admitted it and it's pretty much a no-brainer, like you said. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need a motion, if you want, or further discussion. MS. KELLER: Recommendation from staff? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Not yet. We'll get to that. Just the county right now. MR. JOSLIN: Okay, I'll make a motion regarding Case No. 2008-07, License No. 21660. Jefferey S. Baker, d/b/a Change Your Colors, Inc., as heard before this board and has been found guilty on Count 1, 4.1.6, disregard or violates in the performance of his contracting business in Collier County any of the building, safety, health, insurance or Workman's Compensation laws of the State of Florida or ordinances of this county. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you want us to add in there specifically no Workers' Compensation insurance? MR. NEALE: You might as well put that in there. He's in violation of 4.1.6, particularly no Workers' Compensation insurance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you add that? Is that okay? MR. JOSLIN: That's fine, yes. That is the charge. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MR. L YKOS: Second, Lykos. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion? (No response.) Page 37 May21,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for a vote. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Unanimous, 9-0. Next is the penalty phase. Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Yes. As the board has found the respondent in violation of the Collier County ordinance, it must decide upon the sanctions to be imposed upon the violator. These sanctions are set out in the codified ordinance in Section 22-203(B)(1) and in the revised ordinance at 4.3.5. The sanctions which may be imposed by this board include: Revocation of the Certificate of Competency; suspension of the Certificate of Competency; denial of issuance or renewal of the Certificate of Competency; probation of a reasonable length, not to exceed two years, during which time the contractor's activities shall be under the supervision of the Contractor Licensing Board; and/or participation in a duly accredited program of continuing education. Probation may be revoked at any time for cause by the board at a hearing noticed to consider said purpose. Restitution: A fine not to exceed $10,000 per offense; a public reprimand; a reexamination requirement; denial of the issuance of permits or requiring issuance of permits with conditions; and reasonable legal and investigative costs. Page 38 May21, 2008 In imposing these sanctions the board shall consider the gravity of the violation, the impact of the violation, any actions taken by the violator to correct said violation, any previous violations committed, and any other evidence presented at the hearing by the parties relevant as to the sanction that is appropriate for the case, given the nature of the violation. The board shall also issue a recommended penalty for the State Construction Industry Licensing Board and that penalty may include a recommendation for no further action or a recommendation of suspension, revocation or restriction of the registration or a fine to be levied by the state board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Jackson or Mr. Ossorio, recommendation of the county? MR. JACKSON: For the record, Ian Jackson. The county's recommendation is a six-month probationary period; retaking of the business and law within the probationary period; a $3,000 civil penalty and $250 investigative cost. The civil penalty and the investigative cost to be paid within 10 days. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? MS. KELLER: Mr. Jackson, could I ask a question about the citations? MR. JACKSON: Yes. MS. KELLER: It says there was one 3/31/2006. Okay, there was just one other citation in 2006, right? MR. JACKSON: One in our database, yes. MS. KELLER: Okay. MR. JERULLE: Now, it says here that he paid that citation? MR. JACKSON: That citation was paid April of'06. MR. JERULLE: Did you request or require proof of Workmen's Comp when that citation was paid? MR. JACKSON: Mr. Baker has -- he has a Workers' Compo exemption. So ifhe's working alone, then he's legal. Ifhe has Page 39 May21,2008 employees on the site, he needs to provide coverage for them. So it's reasonable to think that Mr. Baker can have his employees leave the site and he do the work himself and be legal. I hope that helps. MR. JERULLE: Yes, you answered my question. MR. L YKOS: I have a lot of different problems with this. . CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, yeah. Go ahead. MR. L YKOS: Number one is that it happened before, and instead of going out and getting Workers' Comp., he continued to operate this way. And the only reason we know about it is because he got caught. We don't know how many jobs were done under these circumstances. That's number one. Number two, if money's tight, why are you hiring people to do work? Do the work yourself and keep most of the money. I don't understand how, if you don't have a lot of business, that you go give the money away to workers. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, they found him at home. MR. L YKOS: So money's not that tight. And like you said, Mr. Chairman, you know, I'm a licensed contractor, my liability insurance, my Workers' Compo cost a lot of money. And if you want to participate as a licensed contractor in this county, you need to play by the rules. If you think you're above the rules, then go work somewhere else, but not in this county. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll go on record, I'm appalled that the county would ask for a six-month probation. I think that sends nothing but the wrong message to every contractor in this county. Because number one, I don't -- when he says he always works by himself and this is just a rare occasion, I don't believe him. I don't believe him for a minute. I think the message that needs to be sent is -- I'm going to -- if I get to make a motion, I'm going to go revocation. And again, he's been caught before and never got the insurance. If you can't pay the insurance, then get out of business. Page 40 May21,2008 MR. JOSLIN: There's other ways to get Workmen's Compo insurance also. Maybe some people don't realize it but there's leasing companies you can go through. There's a multitude of ways to get people covered under insurance. But just to get none, that's -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He could have given those two employees 10 percent of the company and had them covered under their exemption. He just made no effort. MR. L YKOS: Not to mention the risk the homeowners were put at. MR. JOSLIN: Right. MR. L YKOS: And to be irresponsible as a contractor. It's one thing to want to save money and, to use your term, Mr. Baker, be greedy. But to put homeowners at risk is absolutely irresponsible. And irresponsible is not even a strong enough word. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, can you put on two hats? MR. NEALE: I can try. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you put on the hat of the attorney? I have heard of lawsuits where contractors went to a residence, worked on a house, were not covered by Workers' Compensation, got severely injured and sued the homeowner, which is very commonplace. But also I've heard that insurance companies have denied coverage to the homeowner because the work being done on their house was outside of the scope of normal and everyday activities of the home. MR. NEALE: Yeah, I can't comment on that other than I've heard the same stories. I mean, I don't -- since I don't practice personal injury litigation, I'm not familiar with it, but certainly I've heard the same stories. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So what's at risk is their house. MR. NEALE: Potentially. I mean, certainly the workers that he has there would have a cause of action against the homeowner if they Page 41 May21,2008 were injured working on the homeowner's house. And if they weren't covered by Workers' Compensation insurance their only recourse would be against Mr. Baker or the homeowner. And as any attorney would do, you'd join both of them and the one with the deeper pockets would be the one that would end up paymg. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And painters are not a category that doesn't get hurt, because they do get up on ladders, roofs and everything else. MR. JOSLIN: How old is this license? Just general principle. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Isn't it in there? MR. JACKSON: Eight years. MR. JOSLIN: Eight years he's had this license? MR. HERRIMAN: Well, his exemption originally was issued in 2000, so he's been doing this for eight years, possibly. MR. OSSORIO: His original issue date was 10-3-2000. And you can look at that on E.3. MR. JOSLIN: And this is a painting license, correct? MR. OSSORIO: That's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wouldn't you bet that this covers probably half of the painters out there, that they're exempt and don't have comp.? Any other discussions? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a motion of actions by the board? MR. L YKOS: I make a motion that we revoke his license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything else? Forget investigative costs and fines if you go that route. What about recommendation to the state, is that -- MR. NEALE: Well, if you revoke you still have the -- that is just one of many options. You still have the option to impose fines and Page 42 May21,2008 investigative costs. That doesn't preclude that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's a state misdemeanor; is that correct? MR. NEALE: I don't know. MR. OSSORIO: Working without insurance typically is a civil infraction. We do have a full-time Workers' Compo agent in Naples, and they treat it civil. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do they? MR. OSSORIO: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Except when it's declared a disaster. MR. OSSORIO: I couldn't comment on that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, if you remember, we had some felony convictions after Wilma. MR. OSSORIO: That's working without a license. I don't know if that was working -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, that was license, okay. MR. NEALE: Yeah. MR. OSSORIO: I don't know if that was really working without msurance. But typically the Workers' Compo agent gets a civil infraction and it's a stop work order throughout the State of Florida. Workers' Compo on painting is one of the tougher ones to get because there is a lot of injuries relating to painting. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But people can still go through a leasing agency. MR. OSSORIO: They can go through a leasing agent. They can go through a day labor pool as long as -- we've seen many times you get licensed painters, they go out and get a day labor person. As long as they have their ticket item with their name on it and it's in their vehicle, we have no problem with that as well. So there's options. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Got a motion for revocation. MR. JOSLIN: I'll second the motion. Page 43 May21, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wow. It's just --I've been on this board for 19 years, and believe me, this is an action that this board doesn't take very often. And it's very serious to take a man's livelihood away. Do you have any comment, Mr. Baker? You want to come back up? You've got to talk from the mic if you're going to say anything. MR. BAKER: I mean, I really don't -- I should have done it and I didn't. I mean, that's -- I'm wrong. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me ask you a question. Not to belabor the point, but what's killing you on this is it's not your first offense. MR. BAKER: Right. I understand that completely. MR. JOSLIN: What are you going to do now? MR. BAKER: I don't know. MR. JOSLIN: Let me just ask a question here, gentlemen. I know everybody's upset over what's gone on here, but I just -- you know, I have a hard time trying to understand to take someone's livelihood away who has nothing else in their future. MR. JERULLE: I have a question. This happened in April, correct? MR. JACKSON: Once again, Ian Jackson. Mr. Baker was initially cited by another investigator in April. This case was found --I'm sorry, April of'06 Mr. Baker was originally cited. This case started April of this year, '08. MR. JERULLE: Have you contacted anybody about Workmen's Compo since then? MR. BAKER: I don't have anybody. I mean, I'm working by myself completely. MR. JERULLE: Well, you clean up well. Because most painters that I know that work out in the field usually have paint underneath Page 44 May21,2008 their nails and so forth. And I'm just not convinced that you work by yourself. MR. BAKER: I've been doing it for eight years. I mean, when I came here -- I didn't come here in paint clothes. I didn't think -- MR. JERULLE: The last eight years you've been fined -- or cited twice without Workmen's Compo And doesn't seem to have done anything to try to secure Workmen's Compo MR. BAKER: Because I normally don't ever have anybody. I normally work by myself. I mean, I can get affidavits and say that -- I mean, to show that. Normally I'll go in and do a bedroom, two bedrooms. I normally don't do whole houses. I mean, the reason I was at home was because I live four houses away from that and that's where all my tools were. I keep every -- I mean, I work out of my truck. MS. KELLER: How many jobs are you working on right now? MR. BAKER: I can only do one at a time, and that's all I ever do. I'm not -- I don't make a lot of money. I paint a couple of rooms, you know, just trying to get by. MR. L YKOS: Well, you're a smart enough businessman to get liability insurance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He has to. MS. KELLER: He has to. MR. L YKOS: I understand. So you can get liability insurance but you haven't figured out a way to get Workers' Compo when you have employees. MR. BAKER: That's just stupidity on my -- I mean, it is, it's stupidity. I know about day labor, and I've done that before. Normally I don't ever have any -- I mean, I'm not going to say I've never had people work for me when I haven't got caught. I'm not going to say that, because that would be a lie. But normally I work by myself. I don't do big jobs. I mean, I'm 48 years old. I can't work like I used to when I was in my twenties. Page 45 May21, 2008 MR. L YKOS: What about the painters that have paid for Workers' Compo and paid for liability insurance and somebody didn't get a job because Mr. Baker got a job that he wasn't qualified to do, his business wasn't qualified to do? My subcontractors have to come to me with Worker's Compensation and liability insurance and automobile insurance or they don't work for the Lykos group. They can't even bid a job for me. Our responsibility is to protect the public that doesn't know better. The contractor is supposed to know better. I understand it's difficult. What I recommended is difficult. But what happens when somebody gets hurt or a homeowner gets sued and we could have done something about it? MR. JOSLIN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's the killing factor. You go ahead and sit down, Mr. Baker, thank you. That's the killing factor is do I think we could do something and things would -- he would go out of here and things would change? No. MR. JOSLIN: Right. That was my comment. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They would for six months. MS. KELLER: But I think we have to give people a chance. I mean, in our last case we gave him a chance and he came back and he did what we told him to do. So I think that maybe a six-month probation is not enough, but I don't know if -- MR. JOSLIN: Maybe a demand that he gets a Workmen's Compo policy, period. MR. GUITE': You can't get a Workmen's Compo policy without having employees. I tried. Because that's -- I basically have the same problem he has, a one-man operation. When I get a bigger job I want to hire a couple of guys. Like last year I got real busy, I hired two guys, put them on through a payroll company. As soon as work got slow the payroll Page 46 May21,2008 company sent me a registered letter, we don't want your business anymore because you're not consistent. Okay, well, now what am I going to do? Now so I'm stuck. So I called my insurance company, well, let me buy just a binder, a policy that in case I do get employees they're covered. Well, we need to have your employee's name and Social Security number and how much you're paying them. Well, I don't have those yet. Well, I'm sorry, we can't sell you insurance. MR. JOSLIN: What about-- MR. GUITE': It's a vicious Catch-22. MR. JOSLIN: What about yourself, have you-- MR. GUITE': The state has got to do something about the Workmen's Compo situation. Because all these little contractors like myself are running up against a brick wall. And it is very expensive. For a tile setter it's 14 percent of the pay, which is ridiculous. I can go to Georgia and get it for three percent. And it's not that much more dangerous to do the work in Florida as it is in Georgia. It's really expensive and it's hard to get. You just -- you know, I wish there was a snap your fingers and there was an easy way to fix the problem, but there's not. And I'm kind of with you, I don't want to take away his livelihood because of Workmen's Comp., because it is a real hassle. MR. JOSLIN: Under the circumstances that I can understand, I guess someone that works alone all the time, even like yourself where you don't normally don't take big jobs; if you do, maybe you hire other people or maybe sub it out to someone else. But I just have a hard time, like yourself with -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But see, here my comment coming back to you is yes, and it used to be a whole lot worse, because these insurance companies weren't taking anything but a minimum premium of 50,000 a year. Okay, and we've got -- ever since -- I can't believe I forgot his name, he reformed the Workers' Compo system, the guy that Page 47 May21,2008 ran for Governor and got beat by Crist. MR. HERRIMAN: There is a solution for the small contractors and that's the temporary help services, because they are covered by Workmen's Comp.-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Or don't hire people. MR. GUITE': Yeah, but the temporary help doesn't really -- MR. HERRIMAN: If that's your only out. MR. GUITE': If you want somebody that knows what he's doing and you go there and you get a different person every day and half of them, you know, you can't even speak to or they're not qualified to do the job. So why would you do that? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But see, the 14 percent bothers me. That 14 percent will get you the job. It's the painters, I don't know what painters are. I wish I was 14 percent. Wow, roofing. But mine's come down drastically. I've come from 68 percent down to the mid-twenties. So I'm real happy. But I know there's a problem out there, but we can't condone this. MR. GUITE': No, I'm in 100 percent agreement with that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I am so proud of the county, Ian, for you all catching these people. I think it's absolutely fantastic that you're out there and you're asking these questions and you're checking them through the Workers' Compo books. I had no idea you were doing this. I knew the state did it. Because they're listed. They can check an employee on the job site in a heartbeat. I commend you guys for doing this, because it's a major problem. To give you guys an idea that -- what was the number you told me how many contractors last year didn't renew their license because they didn't renew their insurance? Wasn't it in the thousands? MR. OSSORIO: Well, there is no finite number between -- I Page 48 May21,2008 think this September and October I'll have a number. There's going to be a couple thousand, probably. We're getting a whole bunch. And this is probably not the first case or the last case you'll see this year. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And we're down on permits because a lot of these people that didn't renew their insurance can't pull a permit because they don't have their insurance on file with the county. So there's a big Catch-22. We got all this unpermitted work going on out there, uninsured work in the county. People have got to be careful. MR. GUITE': No, I just lost a good-sized job to a guy that was unlicensed. But what can you do, you know? MS. KELLER: Talk to Mike. MR. OSSORIO: We issued 50 citations last month for unlicensed activity. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How many? MR. OSSORIO: Fifty. That's with two individuals. Twenty-four in the city and 26 in the county, somewhere around there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't you guys see your competitors from -- MS. KELLER: Wasn't Kraft just cited for having people building the government building? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That was illegal aliens. MR. L YKOS: Illegal immigrants. MS. KELLER: Well, they don't have Workmen's Comp., do they? MR. JOSLIN: No doubt. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, they do. MR. JOSLIN: Oh, I'm sure they do. MS. KELLER: Because they have fake Social Security numbers? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They're covered. MR. OSSORIO: Sometimes those big corporations, Kraft Page 49 May21, 2008 Construction, the big ones, they have a blanket policy. They buy into a project and they cover all the subs. No matter if it's a sub of a sub or a sub. They pay big premiums. So there is a binder you can get for that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then do a chargeback at the end. Okay, we've got a motion on the floor. Did we ever get a second? MR. NEALE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We did get a second? MR. NEALE: Mr. Joslin seconded it. MR. JOSLIN: Yes, I seconded it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, the motion was revocation. Any more discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I'm going to call for the vote. All those in favor? I need a show of hands. MR. BOYD: (Indicating.) MR. JOSLIN: (Indicating.) MR. L YKOS: (Indicating.) MR. JERULLE: (Indicating.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Four. All those opposed? MR. HORN: (Indicating.) MR. GUITE': (Indicating.) MS. KELLER: (Indicating.) MR. HERRIMAN: (Indicating.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: (Indicating.) Aye. Five. That's how close you came. Okay, motion fails for lack of a majority. MR. JOSLIN: Now, let's put our heads together here and let's come up with something we can do for this gentleman or stop this situation from going on without taking food off the table. (Power outage.) Page 50 May21,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't you feel sorry for all those people that were in the middle of a report -- MS. KELLER: And they lost their computer. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, we do need to put our heads together. You are under close scrutiny. MR. JOSLIN: You got a family? MR. BAKER: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I can count on two hands the number of revocations we've done in the last 19 years. It's just something this board doesn't go to unless it's there's just absolutely no choice whatsoever, which -- probation, I mean, yeah, they're going to be watching him. You can't make him go get insurance when he's probably not going to have any employees again. Was there a citation with this? MR. OSSORIO: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, wait. But you did ask for $250 in investigative costs and a $3,000 fine, did you not? MR. JACKSON: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What's your ability to pay that $3,000 fine? Come back up to the podium. MR. BAKER: I need a little time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, you tell us. What's the time frame that you can pay a $3,000 fine. MR. BAKER: Sixty days. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sixty days? Wonderful, thank you. MR. HORN: Mr. Chair, question. Is there a way under probation we could somehow require legally that he report his jobs to the county, so that if they choose to they can do spot checks to make sure there's no uninsured employees working? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Michael, does your staff have time for that? MR. OSSORIO: Well, Mr. Baker is -- if the board elects to do Page 51 May21,2008 that, I'm sure Mr. Baker can give us a call and call me, or call our staff and let them know where he's working so if we chose we can go check his jobs. Sure, I don't think that's out of the ordinary. I mean, we're busy as it is but a phone call and an address is not a big deal. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't have any doubt he'll stay clean for six months to a year. It's when this wears off. MR. OSSORIO: That's why the -- I find from experience, I know that maybe the county wasn't -- we didn't go for the throat, but I know that six months or whatever it might be, he'll be back here in front of the board petitioning to try to get his license back. The only way to curb the issue or the craving is to hit him in the pocketbook. Fine him. We're on TV, so everyone knows what the county expects. $3,000 may be not enough. That's up to the board. We don't try to revoke or suspend anyone's license. That's the licensing board's job to do. Our job is to facilitate and bring these cases to you so you can hear them. MR. L YKOS: What does probation mean? MR. OSSORIO: Probation means that he's under the supervision of myself, and if there's an infraction he is immediately, either by your direction license -- you can cancel his license, revoke his license, or we can fast track him to the contractor licensing board for a full review of the board. MR. HERRIMAN: Michael, does he have to pull a license for every paint job that he does? MR. OSSORIO: No, there's no permit required. MR. HERRIMAN: That's the problem, you have no way to track it. MR. JOSLIN: He's required to call in every job he does and refer that to his license number, with every address. And if he would be -- in this motion so he could maybe put this together, ifhe was found at any house or any home or any job that wasn't reported, immediately his license is revoked. Page 52 May21, 2008 MR. OSSORIO: That's up to you. If that's the way you're going, that's fine. We'll do it that way. MR. JOSLIN: Would it be too much paperwork? MR. OSSORIO: No. We'd choose not to go out there. I mean, we don't have to go to every single job there is. But that is something that may be -- he would have to call in and if we choose to go ahead and do the check, we can. But that's up to you. MR. JOSLIN: That's like babysitting. I hate to babysit. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We were discussing strapping on a GPS and ankle bracelets. MR. L YKOS: I think you're right that to have some financial penalty is something that's going to linger for a while, and it's a little bit of a deterrent. I think if! get caught again it's going to cost me several thousand dollars, maybe I'm not lazy and maybe I'm not stupid and I'll go find some Worker's Compo I think that facet of the solution is probably pretty important. MR. JOSLIN: Yeah, for sure. MR. GUITE': I'd like to make a motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. GUITE': I'd like to make a motion that the defendant be on probation for a period of six months, pay a fine to the county for $3,000 within 60 days, report all jobs to Mr. Ossorio for that 60 days, come back before the board after six months and -- for a review. And if you're caught on ajob that you're not supposed to be on or if you're caught with employees, your license will be immediately revoked. MS. KELLER: And he'll be fined again. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And if the fine is not paid, the fine and investigative costs are not paid on time? MR. GUITE': Then the license will be suspended until they are paid. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. GUITE': Make sense? Page 53 May21,2008 MR. JOSLIN: I think I'd like to see the probation go for a year, though, instead of six months. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's coming back in six months. MR. JOSLIN: I know, but we'll keep track of him for a year. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, you asked for the county's recommendation. And one of the things that we encourage is maybe he needs some retesting through the business procedure test about his license and the Workers' Compo MR. GUITE': Yeah, I would add that. Retake the business and law test within the first six months of his probation. MR. NEALE: Also, do you want to include the investigative costs as recommended by the county? MR. GUITE': Yes. MS. KELLER: Does Workmen's Compo do some sort of seminar on -- MR. JOSLIN: If you have CE credits, it does. Does painter require CE credits? MR. OSSORIO: No. MR. L YKOS: We could recommend that he go to a continuing education class which has Workers' Compo as part of the class. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's true. The business and law test is going to have those questions. But -- MR. JOSLIN: There's a lot of other things in there besides that, besides just the testing for people. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: CBA offers some great classes. MR. OSSORIO: I was going to mention that. CBA does. And also the BOA, Building Officials Association, has their annual meeting in Naples in June, I believe. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Next week. Isn't it next week? MR. OSSORIO: No, I think it's the first week in June. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's right. Because that golf tournament is -- they're inviting everybody to play in the golf Page 54 May21,2008 tournament. MR. OSSORIO: I think one of the day's session is for this three-hour workshop on Workmen's Compo But he's painting, he's not a tier one contractor or he's not a building official. So there might be some requirements on it. MR. JOSLIN: He can still go. Anybody can go to those. MR. OSSORIO: I'll be there. They let anyone in. MR. JOSLIN: I didn't say that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's up to you. It's your motion. MR. JOSLIN: I'll second it. MR. GUITE': I'll keep it the way it was. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let's -- MS. KELLER: He also had investigative costs in there. MR. GUITE': Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me see if! got this right. Six months probation. MR. L YKOS: One year. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One year. Come back before the board in six months. Call in every job -- you getting these? You'll get something in writing. But it may be, depending on an how busy he is, it could be next week or it could be next month. Sorry, Pat. But you'll get an order in the mail. Okay, one year probation, six months you come back here, for the next 60 days you call contractor licensing with every one of your job addresses that you go to before you go, okay? Three hundred -- was it 350 -- 250 administrative fines paid within 60 days, $3,000 fine for doing what you did, paid within 60 days. And the first week of June, and you can check with the contractor licensing office -- no, you didn't add that. MR. JOSLIN: No, just the business and law test. Page 55 May21,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And take the business and law test within the next six months. It's given daily. Best place to do it is go by contractor licensing. Gainesville Testing does it every single day. And so you've got -- and a passing grade, not just take the test. But can we add passing grade? MR. GUITE': Yeah, passing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you get a 20, I'm not impressed. MR. BAKER: Agreed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Was that it? MR. GUITE': I believe so. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you'll second the passing grade? MR. JOSLIN: I'll second the passing grade for sure. MR. GUITE': Ifhe's caught on ajob that he's not supposed to be on or ifhe's caught without -- with workmen on the job, it's immediately suspension of license -- revocation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, you step out of line, it's over, okay. MR. JOSLIN: And I really hope you understand, this is probably something that this board never hardly does, but we're going to try to put some criteria on you to put you on the right path because you've been here so long in business and you probably have a family and a livelihood to take care of. Don't abuse this privilege, for sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any more discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. Page 56 May21, 2008 MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, some legalese here. I'll try to make this as quick as possible. Board of County Commissioners, Collier County, Florida, was the petitioner, versus Jefferey S. Baker, d/b/a Change Your Colors, Incorporated. Case No. 2008-07. License No. 21660. This cause came for public hearing before the Contractor Licensing Board on 5/21, right? For consideration -- it is the 21st, isn't it -- for consideration of the administrative complaint filed against Jefferey S. Baker. Service of the complaint was made by certified mail, Mr. Jackson, or personal delivery? MR. JACKSON: Personal delivery. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Personal delivery in accordance with Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105, as amended. The board, having heard testimony under oath, received evidence and heard arguments respective to the appropriate matters, thereupon issued the findings of fact, conclusion of law and order of the board. Findings of fact: One, that Jefferey S. Baker is the holder of Certificate of Competency No. 21660. Number two, that the Board of Collier County Commissioners of Collier County, Florida, is the complainant in this matter. Number three, that the board has jurisdiction of the person of the respondent, and that Jefferey S. Baker was present at the public hearings and was not represented by counsel. Number four, all notices required by Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105, as amended, have been properly issued. And number five, the allegations of fact as set forth in the administrative complaint are approved, adopted, incorporated herein Page 57 May21,2008 by reference as findings of fact. Conclusion of law. The conclusion of law alleged and set forth in the administrative complaint, one count, 4.1.6, disregards or violates in the performance of the contracting business in Collier County any of the building, safety, health, insurance or Workers' Compensation laws in the State of Florida or ordinance of this county. Specifically this case was the lack of no Workers' Compensation insurance and employees on the job site. Order of the board. Based on the foregoing findings of fact and conclusion of law pursuant to the authority granted in Chapter 489, Florida Statutes and Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105, as amended, by a vote of nine in favor and zero opposed, it is hereby ordered that the following disciplinary sanctions and related order are hereby imposed upon the holder of Contractor Certificate of Competency No. 21660. Mr. Neale, can you just fill in the motion there? MR. NEALE: Mr. Dickson, if I may request, if it's the board's pleasure to add one additional piece to the motion and the order? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. NEALE: And that is another section that would say should the -- because the board has requested -- is ordering that his license be suspended ifhe fails to take or takes certain actions. What I would suggest the board do at its pleasure is add another portion to the motion -- to its order that says should the respondent's license be suspended, the suspension shall be reviewed by the board at its next regularly scheduled meeting for further action. So that the suspension just doesn't hang out there in space. So the board then has to bring it back and review that suspension. Because ifhe doesn't pay MR. GUITE': Could we just change that to immediate revocation? MR. NEALE: You can do that, except -- Page 58 May21,2008 MR. GUITE': I'd like to change that to immediate revocation. MR. NEALE: We just need a vote of the board to change all the suspensions to immediate revocation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Was that in the motion? THE COURT REPORTER: He said suspension and then said revocation after that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Make it a part ofthe -- MR. JOSLIN: The suspension, I believe, was if the fact that he did not pay the fine within 90 days or 60 days? MR. NEALE: There's suspension if fines not paid, suspension if administrative costs are not paid. And then if he's caught on the job in violation of any ordinance, he would be suspended. That he would also have to pass the business and law exam within six months. If he doesn't do that, there needs to be a resolution. So we just need to sort of clean up where everything -- if he doesn't do something or if he does do something, what happens in either case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. We covered the fine -- we have four fines. That's the costs and the fine. Ifhe doesn't pay those in 60 days, then his license is suspended. MR. GUITE': Could we add the taking of the business and law exam to that? MR. JOSLIN: Part of it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Also passing the business and law test within six months is what you gave him? MR. GUITE': Six months. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Or his license is automatically suspended. MS. KELLER: Payment was three months. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Payment was 60 days. What were the other items? MR. GUITE': Employees on the job or not notifying them of the Page 59 May21,2008 job he's supposed to be on, immediate revocation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Employees on the job or he doesn't notify them where he is working is immediate revocation. And then come back before the board in six months, at which time further action mayor may not be taken. Six months. And the probation is for a period of one year. MR. GUITE': One year. MR. NEALE: One year. Then in the case of any of the suspensions, then he comes back to the board for review? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. NEALE: So the revocation. Revocation if employees are found, everything else is suspension with review by the board at the next hearing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Baker, would you come back up to the podium. This may be a little confusing to you. Do you understand it? MR. BAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Basically do anything wrong, you're out of business. MR. BAKER: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go pass the test before you come back here in six months. If you don't, then you'll have to deal with us in six months. You're coming back anyway. Call him for the next six months and let him know where you're working. If you don't do that, you'll immediately lose your license. If you have any employees on the job and no insurance, you immediately lose your license. What am I not covering? MS. KELLER: Pay fines. MR. L YKOS: Pay the fines. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pay the fines within 60 days or your Page 60 May21,2008 license will be suspended at the end of 60 days and there will be no action taken until you come here in six months or pay the fine. Follow me? MR. NEALE: No, I just want to make sure. The way I understood it was ifhe doesn't pay, his license is suspended and he comes back at the next hearing to review the suspension. MR. JOSLIN: No, ifhe doesn't pay the fine his license is placed on suspension until the fine is paid. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Or he comes back the six-month period, whichever happens first. It's confusing, isn't it? We will go to any lengths to save a man's livelihood. I hope you appreciate that. MR. BAKER: I do, thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's like a death sentence on this board. It would have been a death sentence for you, financially, for your family. MR. BAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just don't do this again. Either turn down the job or go to the labor pool or get your insurance. But you can't -- just stay clean, okay? MR. BAKER: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And we'll see you in six months. Wish you well. You'll get a copy of this in the mail. Gentlemen, that's the end of it. Because the other case was settled. Mr. Ossorio, I've got questions for you on two cases. I'm carrying the packet still. 05, curt Williams Hobson, Sr. MR. OSSORIO: That was mitigated. That's closed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's closed, okay. And number six, which was Len Mustari, Seaside Pools. MR. OSSORIO: That's been mitigated as well. Page 61 May21,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's been mitigated, wonderful. MR. OSSORIO: We had the case today, and that was also mitigated as well, Case No. 2000808. MR. L YKOS: Ashbrook. MR. OSSORIO: Yes. He elected to pay the homeowner 8,000. MR. JACKSON: $8,000. MR. OSSORIO: So that was a win-win. MR. L YKOS: He gave the money back? MR. OSSORIO: Gave the money back. MR. ~ YKOS: Did he give her interest, too? I was looking forward to having him up here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This was a good meeting. Again, I'm so happy with you guys, the job you're doing. I don't think we ever say that enough. And here you've been shorthanded and you're out checking Workmen's Compo That just delights me beyond words that you're doing those kind of things. I hope more people watch this television to see what can happen to them. I do agree as chairman, in the future $3,000 is too cheap. MR. HERRIMAN: Oh, yeah, he would have paid much more than that if he would have been buying Workers' Compensation since 2000. And that's what the state would do, they would charge him back to 2000 if they could prove what his payroll was. MR. JOSLIN: I was going to say five. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So for future reference maybe we keep that in mind. Could I request two things out of Maggie? I'm sorry. But could she give us a list of -- I use that list of board meetings. Could she, you know, out over a year or so, future board meetings coming up? MR. OSSORIO: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And then next month we'll be doing a new list of members, right? MR. OSSORIO: We have that here today. And we're going to Page 62 May21,2008 update it next month as well. That's one of the things we're going to give you after the meeting. We'll go through a little information after the meeting. We'll hand that out to you. Referencing the outlook of being here, I believe that sometime November, October, December, I think we're going to be booted out of this Board of County Commissioners chambers and we're going to be down at Horseshoe Drive. So we'll try to work that out. So I will give you a schedule next month. And it's going to be a little different. We won't be meeting at 9:00, we'll meet at 10:30 down at our office at conference room 610 like we previously did before. Just for those three months. But I'll let the board know. MR. JOSLIN: I have one question for you. A handyman-- maybe I'm just not picking up the details in the ordinance, but can a handyman paint a house? MR. OSSORIO: No. MR. GUITE': Can he do tile work? MR. OSSORIO: A handyman can do tile work and a handyman can paint. The question is under the Statute 489 there are some exemptions. They're handyman exemptions. Anything under $1,000 or inconsequential work. And I'll give you an example. Your handyman and you want to paint your garage door. Paint the garage door. Doesn't mean you go there and paint the house. You're there to paint the garage door and maybe fix a doorknob or two. Perfect example. If you're fixing the bathroom door and a piece of tile is missing, you replace the piece of tile. That's what a handyman does. He's not going to rip out the bathroom and contract for the tile. And that's what we're out there in the field doing. We're doing investigations. We'll check and see if that meets the criteria. But there is no handyman license in Collier County. We have a maintenance license. And when you sign up for that, you sign an Page 63 May21, 2008 affidavit with the tax collector and our office and just sign saying I can't do this particular work. MR. JOSLIN: I had a handyman come up and ask me that. And I didn't know how to answer the question. He said he was going to paint the front of the house one week and then a couple three weeks later he was going to paint the side of the house. MR. OSSORIO: No, that's painting. MR. JOSLIN: So he's allowed to do that, though, right? MR. OSSORIO: That's painting. MR. JOSLIN: I told him he couldn't. MR. L YKOS: I'd like to say that I'm glad that we pushed the limits today, because it's good to know where everybody is, you know. So I'm glad that we had a chance to do that early on in my tenure here so I can get a feel for where everybody is. I'm glad we were able to do that. MR. JOSLIN: I liked all the input, especially from the new gentleman here. We need all this input. I mean, this is important. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, if you looked at him when that 5-4 vote came out, I mean, he was white. MR. JOSLIN: I thought he was going to cry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's how close he came to losing it. And he won't forget that. I hope. Ann, I will miss you immensely. Thank you. MS. KELLER: Thank you. I'll be in Paris at your next meeting, by the way. MR. NEALE: Rub it in. MR. JOSLIN: Just keep talking. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chair, just one other thing. You know Ann Keller, she represents the City of Naples. Eric Guite' does as well. I know we're coordinating with the City of Naples personnel to hear their recommendations to the Board of County Commissioners for the consumer for the City of Naples. So we are on track with that as well. Page 64 May21, 2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And if Ann has a recommendation, she can send it, right? MS. KELLER: Yeah. If! can think of anybody. MR. JOSLIN: Who does Marco Island? MR. OSSORIO: Marco Island is part of it. I don't think we have anyone from Marco Island. Just Pat. MR. NEALE: But I can't vote. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pat Neale, who is the first Man of the Year award in Marco Island. You didn't know that, huh? They developed an award for him, Man of the Year. That was pretty impressive. It was all over the paper. You were out of town. Now I'm starting to see the pictures in magazines. They're coming out. You photograph well. I need a motion to -- so we can stop recording. MR. JOSLIN: I make a motion to adjourn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Motion to adjourn. MR. LYKOS: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. JERULLE: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. L YKOS: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Now we have a short workshop. ***** Page 65 May21, 2008 There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 10:53 a.m. COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON, Chairman These minutes approved by the Board on as presented or as corrected TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. BY CHERIE' NOTTINGHAM Page 66