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CCPC Minutes 02/21/2008 R February 21,2008 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION Naples, Florida February 21,2008 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Planning Commission, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 8:30 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Mark Strain Lindy Adelstein Donna Reed-Caron Tor Kolflat Paul Midney Bob Murray Brad Schiffer (Absent) Robert Vigliotti David 1. Wolfley ALSO PRESENT: Jeffrey Klatzkow, Chief Asst. County Attorney Ray Bellows, Zoning & Land Development Review Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION WILL MEET AT 8:30 A.M., THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 21, 2008, IN THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS MEETING ROOM, ADMINISTRATION BUILDING, COUNTY GOVERNMENT CENTER, 3301 TAMIAMI TRAIL EAST, NAPLES, FLORIDA: NOTE: INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS WILL BE LIMITED TO 5 MINUTES ON ANY ITEM. INDIVIDUALS SELECTED TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF AN ORGANIZATION OR GROUP ARE ENCOURAGED AND MAY BE ALLOTTED 10 MINUTES TO SPEAK ON AN ITEM IF SO RECOGNIZED BY THE CHAIRMAN. PERSONS WISHING TO HAVE WRITTEN OR GRAPHIC MATERIALS INCLUDED IN THE CCPC AGENDA PACKETS MUST SUBMIT SAID MATERIAL A MINIMUM OF 10 DAYS PRJOR TO THE RESPECTIVE PUBLIC HEARING. IN ANY CASE, WRITTEN MATERIALS INTENDED TO BE CONSIDERED BY THE CCPC SHALL BE SUBMITTED TO THE APPROPRIATE COUNTY STAFF A MINIMUM OF SEVEN DAYS PRJOR TO THE PUBLIC HEARING. ALL MATERIAL USED IN PRESENTATIONS BEFORE THE CCPC WILL BECOME A PERMANENT PART OF THE RECORD AND WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR PRESENTATION TO THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS IF APPLICABLE. ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THE CCPC WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THE TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. 1. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE 2. ROLL CALL BY SECRETARY 3. ADDENDA TO THE AGENDA 4. PLANNING COMMISSION ABSENCES 5. APPROVAL OF MINUTES -. JANUARY 3, 2008, REGULAR MEETING; JANUARY 9, 2008, LDC MEETING; JANUARY 11, 2008, LDC MEETING; JANUARY 11,2008, SPECIAL (COCOHATCHEE) MEETING; JANUARY 17, 2008, REGULAR MEETING 6. BCC REPORT- RECAPS - JANUARY 16, LDC MEETING; JANUARY 22, LDC MEETING 7. CHAIRMAN'S REPORT 8. CONSENT AGENDA ITEMS A. Petition: PUDZ-2007-AR-12248, SabaI Palm Development, LLC, represented by Robert L. Duane, AICP, of Hole Montes, Inc. and Richard D. Y ovanovich of Goodlette, Coleman, and Johnson, requesting a rezone from the Agricultural (A) to the Commercial Planned Unit Development (CPUD) Zoning District for project to be known as Napoli Village. The +/-8.97-acre subject site is proposed to pennit an adult congregate living facility, located east of Tamiami Trail North (US 41), west of Sterling Oaks PUD, and north of the Community Congregational Church, at 15450 Tamiami Trail North, in Section 9, Township 48 South, Range 25 East, Collier County, Florida. (Coordinator: John-David Moss) HEARD 217/08 1 B. Petition: PUDZ-2006-AR-10171, Eastbourne Bonita, LLC, represented by Laura Spurgeon, of Johnson Engineering, Inc., and Patrick G. White, Atty. of Porter, Wright, Morris & Arthur, LLP., requesting a rezone from the Agricultural (A) and Special Treatment (ST) Overlay Zoning District to the Residential Planned Unit Development (RPUD) Zoning District for project known as Brandon RPUD, for the development of 204 single-family and multi-family residential units. The subject property, consisting of 51.1 acres, is located on the southeast corner of the intersection of Livingston Road and Veterans Memorial Boulevard, Section 13, Township 48 South, Range 25 East, Collier County, Florida. (Coordinator: Melissa Zone) HEARD 2/7/08 9. ADVERTISED PUBLIC HEARlNGS A. Petition: VA-2007-AR-12629, Sara De La Rosa is requesting an after-the-fact Variance of 2.3 reet to permit the encroachment of a single-family dwelling into the required 30-foot front yard setback area of the Residential Single Family (RSF-3) Zoning District. The 0.36-acre subject property is located at 1201 Camellia Avenue, Lot 24, Block C of the Immoka1ee Highland Subdivision, in Section 33, Township 46, Range 29, of Collier County, Florida. (Coordinator: John-David Moss) 10. OLD BUSINESS II. NEW BUSINESS A. To consider CCPC hearing dates for the 2008 AUIR to be scheduled as follows: October 22 (Wednesday) and 23 (Thursday) from 8:30 A.M. - 5:00 P.M. and October 24 (Friday) from 11 :00 A.M. - 5:00 P.M. (Coordinator: Mike Bosi) 12. PUBLIC COMMENT ITEM 13. DISCUSSION OF ADDENDA 14. ADJOURN 2/21/08 cepe Agenda/RB/sp 2 February 21,2008 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the, what is it, February 21st meeting of the Collier County Planning Commission. If you'll all please rise for pledge of allegiance. (Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.) Item #2 ROLL CALL BY SECRETARY CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you. If the secretary will please do the roll call. COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Kolflat? COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Here. COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Schiffer is absent. Mr. Midney? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Present. COMMISSIONER CARON: Ms. Caron is here. Mr. Strain? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'm here. COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Adelstein? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: I'm here, too. COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Murray? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Me, too. COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Vigliotti? COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Present. COMMISSIONER CARON: And Mr. Wolfley? COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Here. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you. Item #3 ADDENDA TO THE AGENDA Page 2 ---,_._......_._.._._--....~ ~.. - .... ---_.~-,,_.,._.. February 21,2008 Addenda to the agenda. Basically we have two consent items and one advertised public hearing. Are there any other changes? (No response.) Item #4 PLANNING COMMISSION ABSENCES CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, hearing none, we'll move on to the planning commission absences. Our next meeting is February 25th. It will be at 10:00 in this room. And it will be on the Cocohatchee project, so hopefully it will be a wrap-up day for that. We should have all gotten our paperwork now, and as long as we're prepared to discuss it Monday, we'll get through it all. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: You said 10:00? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: 10:00 Monday morning. Mr. Midney won't be here. Mr. Wolfley? COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I will be unable to make it as well at this point. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. When I look down, I keep thinking of him and his name and how I keep mispronouncing it after all these years, so I've got to be very careful. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: So now you've got to work on the Wolfley. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Wigliotti, how's that? Do a combine of both of you. Item #5 APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES - JANUARY 3, 2008, REGULAR Page 3 February 21,2008 MEETING; JANUARY 9, 2008, LDC MEETING; JANUARY 11, 2008, LDC MEETING; JANUARY 11,2008, SPECIAL (COCOHATCHEE) MEETING; JANUARY 17,2008, REGULAR MEETING Okay, approval of the minutes. We had a pile of them. I'll take them one at a time. January 3rd, 2008 regular meeting. Somebody want to just __ COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I'll move it. COMMISSIONER CARON: I have -- excuse me. I have a change that needs to be made. The words Tree Tops, as used in this transcript, refer to a development, and so they should be capitalized. Otherwise it looks like we're talking about a line of trees, as opposed to a development. Thanks. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. With that one change, is there -- Mr. Murray, you still going to make -- COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Sure. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Was there a second? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Second it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Seconded by Mr. Adelstein. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. MR. MURRAY: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. MR. WOLFLEY: Aye. COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response.) Page 4 February 21, 2008 January 9th LDC meeting. Is there a motion to approve? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: So moved. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Made by Mr. Adelstein, seconded by? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: (Indicating.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray. All in favor, signify by saying aye. MR. MURRAY: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. MR. WOLFLEY: Aye. COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries. January 11 th LDC meeting. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: So moved. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion made by Commissioner Adelstein. Seconded by? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: (Indicating.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Commissioner Murray. Two-handed this time. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. . MR. MURRAY: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. MR. WOLFLEY: Aye. COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye. Page 5 February 21,2008 COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries. We're almost there, two more. January 11th, 2008 special Cocohatchee meeting. Recommendation to approve? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Go ahead. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Made by Mr. Adelstein. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: How could I resist? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Seconded by Mr. Murray. This is a good team we've got going here. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. MR. MURRAY: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. MR. WOLFLEY: Aye. COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries. And the final one, January 17th 2008 regular meeting. COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: So moved. COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: I have an error change. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: On Page 9, I had made the motion and I was not counted as being part of those who voted for it. And -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It's odd you'd make a motion and not vote for it. Page 6 February 21,2008 COMMISSIONER MURRAY: It's possible to do that, but I -- in this case I did make the motion and vote for it, so I think I just got slipped off there. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, so on Page 9 we need to add you as a member of the affirmative vote; is that correct? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: That's correct. With that, the minutes are fine, as far as I could see. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So that's a motion to recommend approval with that change? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I would do so, based on that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Is there a second? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: I'll second it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Seconded by Commissioner Adelstein. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. MR. MURRAY: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. MR. WOLFLEY: Aye. COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries. Okay, we finished it. Thank you all. Item #6 BCC REPORT - RECAPS - JANUARY 16,2008, LDC MEETING; JANUARY 22, 2008, LDC MEETING Page 7 February 21,2008 Ray, the BCC reports. MR. BELLOWS: Yes, on February 12th the Board of County Commissioners heard the PUD rezoning for Myrtle Woods that was approved on the regular agenda by a vote of 5-0. And it was approved subject to the planning commission and EAC conditions of approval, with the exception that certain businesses -- or businesses with -- could be deemed obscene names or rude names be omitted from the PUD. It was kind of an unusual condition, but the petitioner agreed to it, so that was included. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Would you speak up a little bit on that? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I think the microphones aren't up to the loudness they usually are. Okay, that -- ah, that's better. There we go. MR. BELLOWS: Yeah, the board approved, subject to the planning commission and EAC recommendations, but they put an exemption in on certain businesses that could be deemed to have a rude or obscene type of name. That was a concern that was raised during the meeting. COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Oh, that's going to be interesting. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, that's a good move, but I just wonder how they're going to define it. That's unfortunate they -- that's going to be a challenge. MR. KLATZKOW: Well, it's in our LDC, so we're going to use the same language in the LDC as the condition. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Good. I think that -- I heard about some ofthose recommendations, and I think that's a good move on the part of the commission to take a look at banning names that are inappropriate for our children to see. Go ahead, Mr. Vigliotti. COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Ray, which PUD was that? MR. BELLOWS: That was PUDZ-05-AR-9127, the Myrtle Page 8 February 21,2008 MR. BELLOWS: That was PUDZ-05-AR-9127, the Myrtle Woods PUD. COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Myrtle Woods, thank you. MR. BELLOWS: The board also remanded the ordinance for outdoor service areas to be presented to the planning commission at the March 6th planning commission meeting. So it could be heard at the Board of County Commissioner meeting on March 26th. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Now, isn't this one we already saw? MR. BELLOWS: I believe we had an early draft before the planning commission. MR. KLA TZKOW: They want your recommendation on the ordinance. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I thought we did. MR. KLATZKOW: I don't think you formally made a recommendation. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Really? MR. KLA TZKOW: We bifurcated between LDC amendment and the noise ordinance. This is the ordinance itself. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So now the objective is to review the ordinance. We're not here to then decide how to split the ordinance apart, we're basically being asked to review the ordinance, period. MR. KLATZKOW: That's correct. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, well, that's fine. We got the direction, I'm sure we'll take care of it. And that's going to be on the March 6th meeting, Ray? MR. BELLOWS: That's correct. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's it? MR. BELLOWS: That's it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, sir. Item #7 Page 9 February 21, 2008 CHAIRMAN'S REPORT Chairman's report. Well, I did some research. Now we're in trouble. I have two things I want to mention to everybody. I went into the county offices like I always do to pick up my packet, and I knew the agenda had just one item on it, the variance that we had for the last time on the agenda plus our consent items. Now, that didn't seem to be a lot of paperwork until I got my packet. And if Ms. Caron will let me borrow it. This is actually four of the five minutes transcribed for our review today. It's -- without the last one, it's at least an inch thick, might be 300, 500 pages here. I don't know how many. I saw when Sharon offered that to me, I said, Sharon, we have a very good court reporter. She does an excellent job. I have the utmost faith, and surely there are parts of it that need to be read, but I can read it on-line, I can read it as an electronic version and save a tremendous amount of effort. And I said, what does the county have to do to make all these copies that are passed out to us? We might have one or two little comments and then they're thrown out because they're already public record, they're transcribed. So I suggested that maybe I'd bring it up today at a meeting. Right now the county charges I think 15 cents a page for a copy. If that was 500 pages, just that packet alone cost 75 bucks per person on this committee today. You multiply that times nine of us, that's $675 for all of us to get that packet that we now turn around and we don't need anymore. It's worthless. Now you multiply that times 24 weeks, you're looking at $16,000 just for that portion of our packet a year. And that means you've got paper, you've got someone standing at a copier, making a copy, stapling them, putting them out and passing them out to us and then couriering (sic) them to us. And boy, if they did the courier by the pound, we'd be in trouble. Page 10 February 21,2008 I was going to ask this commission if they wouldn't mind at least getting the transcribed minutes and the BCC recaps electronically to save the cost to the taxpayers in the county of getting it like it is now for what little we need it for. I understand there are comments, and Mr. Murray's was a prime example of how his name was missed on a vote, and that's important. But we could do that through an electronic version and just come with a comment here to the meeting and save a tremendous amount of effort and cost. I think if one committee does it and another, maybe we eventually will have a whole wad of savings for the -- overall. Does anybody have a problem with receiving these electronically? And just this item for now. Mr. Kolflat, then Mr. Wolfley. COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: I'd only like to ask Ray, how many people can you reduce in your department if we were to activate this? MR. BELLOWS: That's decisions higher above me. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Very good answer. Mr. Wolfley? COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I think that's a great idea. If we could just get an e-mail with a link to it so we don't have to go hunting, to make it easy. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Oh, that's even better. Yeah, that would be even better to review them -- I think that's great. Mr. Murray? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah, I have a lot of trouble with my eyes, and reading from the computer does put a great deal of strain on them. One way of reducing the cost of these things is to bring it down from what looks like 16 or 18 point type down to a smaller size type. I recognize the desirability of saving money. I'll go along with Page 11 February 21, 2008 it to the point where I can -- reading that much over the computer would be horrendous for me. So if there's some paper addition that may be, then I'm going to have to be the little poor boy that has to get them by paper. I just can't -- I had to go to the eye doctor. I have major problems. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray, would you mind giving it a try so you -- try scrolling through it, and if you find it too prohibitive, then maybe we can -- Sharon can just produce the hard copies for you? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, I suspect -- I suspect, as I thought I indicated, I suspect we're going to go to do this, we're going to go to electronic, and that's fine. I have no objection to wanting to do it, I'm merely indicating that I have a problem that if it turns out I cannot, then I'm going to have to say, look, I need the paper. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Ray -- is everybody here in agreement? Is that going to work? Subject to -- you know, if anybody finds there's problems with it, I guess we can convert over on individual member basis back to paper, but it'd sure be a nice try to save some of the effort. Mr. Murray? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: There is a question that comes up about -- sometimes about pagination, and comments on one page may be found in a computer and it turns out to be on another page when printed. There would have to be some way of making sure if we're going to say a correction is necessary, because you could never have any evidence. We're not going to have any evidence, I guess, of the correction we just made, but we've identified the page and it's probably -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, first of all, you do have the evidence, because once we make the correction here today, the transcription of today's meeting will have that in it, plus the Page 12 February 21,2008 correction will be made before it's recorded and put on-line for the world to see. So we could always check it back on-line again. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay, good. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I think that -- I'm trying to think what your -- oh, your first question was about if you did have a page, how does the pagination change. I don't -- all of us have printers, and if we had one page like you had today, you could have printed that one page just to bring to the meeting and then discussed off the one page, if you needed to. That might be a solution, if that were to happen. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't referring to an issue that way. I was referring to when you read your computer, let's say it says Page 9, and in the record, the actual record they have, it might be Page 10. It's not a big deal, but it's a thought, that's all. I'm just trying to think about what the implications are all around. Being mindful of it, that's all. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: As long as everybody doesn't mind, I think we ought to give it a try. And then if it turns out it doesn't work, we can always revert back. So Ray, could you kind of get that in the works with Sharon? MR. BELLOWS: Definitely. I don't see a problem with that. And Melissa just reminded me, I believe the on-line version would be the same as the print-out version, so it shouldn't be too drastically different. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: So they use the standard one inch -- MR. BELLOWS: It should be about the same. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: -- and one inch? MR. BELLOWS: I can't imagine it -- COMMISSIONER MURRAY: That's fine. MR. BELLOWS: -- would be too different. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay. Page 13 February 21, 2008 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. And the next part of my chairman's report or request is a research issue that, Mr. Murray, if this first one was a little uncomfortable, this next one might be, too. I was looking at different readers. I'm constantly trying to find a way to make my research efforts easier. And they have excellent readers out now. Sony makes one called an E-Reader. There's another one coming out, I'm not sure how good it is, it's called a Kindle. But they're book readers or document readers. We in our packages receive piles of paperwork. And I'm not suggesting that this commission decide on this today, but I'm putting it out as a thought and maybe further research. And maybe the productivity committee is the committee that would look at this for us. If we were to be issued some form of electronic reader of some type, subject to research, which is the best for all of our agenda items, one that could be annotated, one that we could enter comments in, it would be an editable version, not one that would change the text given to us but allow us to make notes on the text, just as if we were writing it, and we converted this commission over to full electronics, and that way we get everything downloaded to it from the county, it goes back to the county, it stays in permanent record forever in the county's data base, none of us have got to worry about keeping it, turning it back in, throwing it out, whatever we do with them, and we've got that permanent record and we're safe and secure forever. I'm not telling everybody this is a suggestion to do. I'm asking if you would mind if I were to possibly ask the productivity committee or whoever would look at such things to do an unbiased research and see ifthere's something out there that might work as an electronic format for this community to use instead of these packages of paperwork we get every meeting. Again as a savings. Because as you calculate this out, if you were to spend -- on one of these readers it cost 300 bucks. And say Page 14 February 21, 2008 you put a couple hundred more into whatever you wanted to to make it as best it needed to be for this committee. Times nine is $4,500. That's a one-time purchase that would cover whoever's on this committee until the machine broke. Now, that's a heck of a lot less than just the copying of the transcribed minutes that we had which were $16,000. So again, if you multiply that over the full effect of the paperwork this committee has to see and ends up stacking up in the back room in a basket or turning back in to staff, it could save a lot of trees, a lot of office supplies, a lot of staff time. And then I like the key, it stays electronically kept in the county record. So there's no more any question as to how these records are kept, they're all right there. I'd just like to pursue it. And if you all don't mind, I'd like to have someone look at it. Mr. Vigliotti? COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I think that's a good idea. And if we choose to go ahead, maybe we can get one, and then -- say you get one and you show us how it works and see how comfortable we can get with it before we go ahead with everyone. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: As an experiment? Anything we can do to try to make that move forward. If it doesn't work, fine. But if it does work, the advantage to the taxpayers and to everything would be tremendous, because it would set a way to do things electronically in the future. And the records will be kept. I think -- and Mr. Klatzkow, legally there's no problem keeping records like that, is there? MR. KLATZKOW: Electronic storage? It's fine. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Well, if you all don't mind, I'd like to -- and Ray, is this something that maybe I could ask the productivity committee to look at for us, or do they have to be directed by somebody else? Page 15 February 21, 2008 MR. BELLOWS: Good question. I can check with Mr. Schmitt and get back to you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, if you wouldn't mind. As long as there's no objection. Mr. Midney? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: What is a reader? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It's like a computer screen. More ofa book size. But the contrast is set up to read like you read a page of a book. It's not -- hasn't got any sheen or glare to it and it's softer on the eyes. So you read it like you read a book, except to change the pages you touch -- you scroll the pages on the -- with a button on the bottom. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: And what if you wanted to -- because right now I write on my paper things, you know, sometimes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, there are programs out that allow that to happen. I don't know if the reader is matched up to those or if they need a different device. That's kind of the part of the research effort that I'd like to see. Because if there's something out there that gives us all that and it's electronic, I think in the long run we'd all save and so would the taxpayers. So just a thought. Mr. Wolfley? COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Are you referring to -- it's a piece of hardware? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: In other words, all right, it's like we receive the LDC code book and then we'd also get that reader and that kind of thing? MR. BELLOWS: Kind oflike a large iphone. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Okay, I'm with you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah, but it's book size. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: How would you deal with Page 16 February 21, 2008 updates that come at you? Would that be software that would be shot at you by both the petitioner and the staff? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, first of all, everything should come from staff and through our county site. And if that's the way it was tied in back to the county site, then anything that comes in will come through the county site to us. So it stays on the county site, it stays in the reader. There will be capacities I'm sure in these readers -- I know there are, from fact. And at some point I'm sure that we'd either have to exchange flash drives or download to a server somewhere and we could probably do it at a meeting like this by sticking them in one of the computers to clean them out and then refresh them with new data. I'm not sure on all those details. But I think it's worth the research and to see over time how much money it would save the local government, so -- COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Sounds like an interesting idea. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anyway, ifthere's no objection, I'll-- COMMISSIONER MURRAY: If they do eye transplants, it will be good. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah, bionic memory in the brain, huh? That would be the next thing. Well, thank you all. That is the last item I have. Item #8A PETITION: PUDZ-2007-AT-12248 And now we'll go into the consent agenda items. We'll vote on them individually. The first one is Petition PUDZ-2007-AR-12248, and it's the Sabal Palm development. Napoli Village. This was that elderly care facility we met on last week. It's on the consent agenda item. There Page 17 February 21, 2008 were some changes we recommended. Is there any concerns on the part of planning commission members on what was presented? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ifnone, is there a motion to approve that item on the consent agenda? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: So moved. COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: So moved. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion made by Commissioner Adelstein, seconded by Commissioner Vigliotti. All in favor, signify by saying aye. MR. MURRAY: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. MR. WOLFLEY: Aye. COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No opposed. Item #8B PETITION: PUDZ-2006-AR-10171 Next one is Petition PUDZ-2006-AR-10171, Eastbourne Bonita, LLC. Otherwise known as the Brandon RPUD. Same situation, we supplied some stipulations to staff. They incorporated them into a document. The document was provided to us. Are there any concerns or questions on the document? Page 18 February 21,2008 (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Hearing none, is there a recommendation to approve? COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: (Indicating.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Vigliotti, is that a recommendation to approve? COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Yes. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: (Indicating.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Adelstein, is that a second? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All those in favor, sig -- COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: I have a question. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: What we're approving is the -- what we got, that reflects what was voted on. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: But that doesn't mean that you approve the development, right? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No, it just means that it reflects what we voted on. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So you vote against the development still stays, but at least we're reflecting that those of us that were here, the staff version of what was rewritten was properly written. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: I see. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All those in favor, signify by saying aye. MR. MURRAY: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. MR. WOLFLEY: Aye. Page 19 February 21,2008 COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries. Item #9 A PETITION: V A-2007-AR-12629 With that, we'll move on to the advertised public hearings. The first petition is V A-2007-AR-12629, the Sara De La Rosa variance of 2.3 feet. It's at 1201 Camelia Avenue in Immokalee. All those wishing to participate in this petition, please rise to be sworn in by the court reporter. (Speakers were duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Are there any disclosures on the part of the planning commission? Mr. Midney? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: The petitioner is a former co-worker and her sister is a worker that I co-worker right now, and I spoke with the sister about it yesterday. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Thank you, sir. Hearing none others, we will move forward with the presentation by the applicant. H' , 1, ma am. MS. De La ROSA: My name is -- I apologize for my voice today -- Sara De La Rosa from Immokalee, and I'm here to -- in regards to a variance on a home that I am building in Immokalee of which I'm on a setback due to a mismeasuring of the foundation, which caused it to be approximately 2.3 feet shorter than what it Page 20 February 21,2008 should have been at 30 feet. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. There's a packet of information was provided to the planning commissioners. Are there any questions of the applicant? Mr. Kolflat? COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: I don't know if this question is to the applicant or to the board. Why was this handled as a full-blown variance hearing, rather than an administrative variance. Because there's a difference between 4,000 and $1,000 to run it through. MR. MOSS: Yeah, the LDC only permits administrative variances if it's a minor -- I think it's five percent of what -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Six inches, I think, isn't it? MR. MOSS: Or less than six inches. So hers exceeded that limit. So that's why it wasn't able to be done administratively. COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: I thought it was a certain percentage of the setback. MR. MOSS: That's right. Is it five percent? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Not to exceed six-- MR. MOSS: Not to exceed six inches. And this one obviously exceeded six inches. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: The percentage you may be referring to, Mr. Kolflat, is one where it can go up to 25 percent, if it's due to an error on the part of staff, or contributed to by an error on the part of staff. COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: That's-- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: In this particular case, staff didn't make an error. COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: That's the qualification then. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: I remembered the 25 percent, Page 21 February 21, 2008 and that's what I was concerned about. Thank you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Wolfley? COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I have a question of the applicant. What is the width of the house, starting from 11 th to the house next door? What is the width of the house that direction? Do you have that figure? I didn't see it here and I couldn't-- MS. De La ROSA: I believe it's here. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Well, I'm not too good on my tangents and cotangents anymore, so I couldn't calculate the legs. MS. De La ROSA: It was supposed -- what was supposed to have been left, if! can clearly recall, was 7.5, and I think we left a little over eight feet. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I guess my question would be, it looks as if you would have made your 30- foot setback it would have been encroaching on the seven and a half. Is that -- I just want to check my calculations on that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: No. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: No. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No, I'm looking at it. First of all, out of that 100-foot width of the lot, she'd have 65 feet remaining with the two standard setbacks taken out. So the house would be about 65 feet. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Well, I came up with 62.85, but my math might be a little off. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: But see, she has an excess on the side that she's talking about, so-- MS. De La ROSA: Right. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Gotcha. I have one more. I had some, and I wasn't able to make it out, but I had someone take some pictures and they weren't able to come Page 22 February 21, 2008 here today. But your other neighbors next door are even closer than MS. De La ROSA: Yes, they are. Yes, they are. That was my thought also in the beginning. I don't know if there was -- if their homes might have been built before, there might have been some changes as far as the codes or what. But my house as it is right now, it still stands further in than some of them do. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Yeah, exactly. And that's what I heard. Now, the other thing is did the contractor take any responsibility for -- MS. De La ROSA: Well, we're homeowner. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Owner/builder? MS. De La ROSA: We're building. And we just hired a contractor. And obviously -- COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: They mismeasured. MS. De La ROSA: Right. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Happens all the time. Well, I'm certainly in empathy for you. That's all. MS. De La ROSA: Thank you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you. Your home is really in this problem because you're on a corner lot with two fronts. MS. De La ROSA: Right. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Because anybody else would have had two sides, which means instead of a 30-foot setback you would have 7.5 feet and you could have had plenty of room to build a bigger home. MS. De La ROSA: Right. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I understand. Page 23 February 21,2008 Okay, any other questions? Mr. Kolflat? COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: If this has two front yards, aren't the other two remaining yards then side yards rather than a year yard? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I believe so, yes, sir. COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: So both of the other yards were side yards. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Correct. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: They didn't take full advantage of the side yard access in the rear. It looks like they kept a -- well, they have 46 feet in the rear, they could actually have gone to a much lesser dimension in the rear if they had wanted. MS. De La ROSA: Right. Exactly. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I have. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I have a question on that picture that we're looking at right now. Is that an illusion, or does that wall have an arc to it? COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: I hope it's an illusion. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I hope it's an illusion. Because either that or you may -- COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: The rest of the world's crooked I think. COMMISSIONER CARON: That is very strange. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Did you hire or get anybody else to take a look at what's being built there to verify that -- you know, I guess you got a little unsure. MS. DE LA ROSA: Right. Well, we got somebody else to go and check things out, and apparently this was the only thing that they Page 24 February 21,2008 also found as far as, you know, the wrong -- what they did is they failed to do the spot survey at the time of the foundation. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I appreciate that. But that picture really does -- MR. MOSS: Mr. Murray, ifI may, I'm the one who took the picture. The reason it looks that way is because it's the facade of the house in the rear. I took that picture to illustrate how that one exceeded its setbacks as well, and I think that that's why it looks like there's a bow in the wall of Mrs. De La Rosa's house. It's straight. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions? COMMISSIONER CARON: I don't -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes, Ms. Caron? COMMISSIONER CARON: I don't have a question, I just have a comment to make. The -- once again, it seems that spot surveys are catching problems too late. And we're always at the oh, woe is me tie beam stage when we finally get to these things. And I want to know what we could possibly do about that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: You have an echo to your voice. COMMISSIONER CARON: I do. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: She's resonating. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I think the question was directed, Ray, probably more to you as a department head than anything else. MR. BELLOWS: Well, we've struggled with this for a long time with the information presented on the building permit application. And maybe J.D. can provide a little history of what happened with the permitting with this. I'm not sure. But if the information is deemed correct when the permits are taken in, then it's up to the -- it's tie beam inspection to determine if there is an error or not. Page 25 February 21, 2008 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, you had a slab inspection that showed the error; is that correct? MS. De La ROSA: Yeah, we had the spot survey that showed the error. Apparently, according to everything else, the other inspections that the been done as far as the slab and the walls, everything had passed. But then when it got to the tie beam, that whoever was going to come inspect the tie beam was the one who saw that there had never been a spot survey done, of which I wasn't aware of myself. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Oh, so what happened is they got past the slab survey inspection without having a slab survey. And they went on and got the rest of their inspections. It wasn't caught till the subsequent -- MS. De La ROSA: Right. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: --later inspection picked it up. So that is a problem with your building department. COMMISSIONER CARON: That's a problem. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yeah. MR. BELLOWS: Yeah. COMMISSIONER CARON: And we keep running into it and we keep bringing it up and keep asking for corrections to be made. Because as Mr. Wolfley noted as well, you know, the contractors should be taking responsibility for these things, not the homeowner who is relying on these contractors. MR. BELLOWS: Those are all good points and I'll discuss that with Mr. Schmitt and with the building department director and we'll see if previous direction or discussion on this item, what resulted of that, and I can respond back to you. COMMISSIONER CARON: Report back. Thanks. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I would like you to check on one thing, Ray. I know that because I'm involved with some construction aspects of different projects, when you get a -- if you don't get a slab Page 26 February 21,2008 inspection, I didn't think you could call for another inspection till they signed off the slab inspection in the computer. And the girls over there are pretty diligent in the way they monitor that -- I shouldn't say girls, ladies or men or whoever are doing it. But if you could check and see if such a stopgap measure is in place, because I thought they weren't supposed to go to a next inspection until the slab survey got signed off. So I'm a little surprised if that's true. Go ahead, Mr. Wolfley. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Well, formerly being in the concrete industry some 20 years ago, I found that all they do is check for the steel. They check to see if they're tied properly and so on and so forth, and they rarely do any measuring. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Oh, yeah, that's an inspection. But see, now -- you're talking about the old days and I know those, too. Now when you get a slab poured, you've got to have your surveyor come out and actually pin the corners and then show that in what's called a slab survey to the building department. And once that slab survey is approved in response to the way the building permit was issued, they're then supposed to go ahead and go forward with the rest of the inspections. I thought there was a pause between when the inspections resumed after the finalization of an approved slab survey, but there may not be. And maybe that's something that could be looked at to stop buildings going too far before the slab survey is proven to be right or wrong. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Is that -- I have one more question. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead, Mr. Wolfley. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Has your home been sitting there since July just as is? Page 27 February 21,2008 MS. De La ROSA: Yes, it has. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Well, that's just a pity. I mean, it's obvious that the home is an improvement to the area. MS. De La ROSA: Yes, it is. COMMISSIONER WOLFLEY: Just a pity. MS. De La ROSA: I would hope so. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ms. Caron, then Mr. Kolflat. COMMISSIONER CARON: I'm done. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Kolflat? COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Yeah, relative to what you've been talking about, I have a question also, Ray. At what point in time does a variance become an after-the-fact variance? You refer to in some of the petitions as an after-the-fact variance. What is the fact involved that sets that off time-wise? Is that the slab inspection, the spot surveyor what? When does the terminology change? MR. BELLOWS: Anything that's constructed and permitted would be an after-the-fact. If they're proposing it without doing construction, then it's before the fact. COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: So it's before any inspection? MR. BELLOWS: Well, if they start construction, then it becomes after the fact. No, you can't build and find you made a mistake and not be charged an after-the-fact. If you come in prior to construction and you know you're going to need a variance, that's a before-the-fact variance. Anything that's constructed is after the fact. COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: I'm not sure I still understand what's the time frame or what's the trigger, so to speak, that triggers it to an after-the-fact variance. MR. MOSS: Just construction. If any construction is begun, then it suddenly becomes after the fact, if they seek a variance at that point. COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Is construction starting to dig Page 28 February 21,2008 the hole? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, it might be a filing ofa notice of commencement that's required before any -- from that point forward. That's the signification legally that construction and vendors are going to start working on the site. So maybe that's your key. MR. BELLOWS: That's the way we normally apply it. If you have a structure there, then it's after the fact. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I think Mr. Kolflat's question, though, is at what point is it a structure? When does that flag it? When you clear the dirt, when you pour the foundation, when you come in with a slab survey, when you file notice of commencement, which is your legal start of construction? Maybe you ought to -- and you're going to come back to us anyway with this discussion on the slab. And Ray, if you could answer that question as well. MR. BELLOWS: Okay. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And maybe add that to the old items-- agenda item to March 6th. And that way we'll get your answers and be able to put these questions to bed. COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Thank you. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you. Anything else of the applicant? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, ma'am. Now we'll have staffs presentation. MS. De La ROSA: Thank you. MR. MOSS: Good morning, Commissioners. John-David Moss, Department of Zoning and Land Development Review. The only thing that I wanted to add, and I hope that you received these in your packets, was that Mrs. De La Rosa received three letters of support from the adjacent neighbors, so they're all in favor of this variance. Page 29 February 21,2008 And I'll be happy to answer any other questions you may have. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any questions of staff? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, thank you, sir. Ray, are there any public speakers? MR. BELLOWS: No one has registered. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: With that, we'll close the public hearing and we'll entertain a motion. Mr. Midney? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: I would like to move that we forward Petition V A-2007-AR-12629. Does this go to the BCC or are we the final say on this? MR. BELLOWS: BZA. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: BZA, yeah. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: I'll second the motion. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: With a recommendation of approval. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion's been made by Commissioner Midney. Is there a second? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Adelstein seconded the motion. Any further discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All those in favor of the motion, signify by saying aye. MR. MURRAY: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. MR. WOLFLEY: Aye. COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye. Page 30 February 21,2008 COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries 8-0. Thank you. We're all set. That takes care of it. Okay, on -- well, number 10 is not supposed to be there so I'll just cross it off. We already heard number 10, or discussed number 10. Item #10 OLD BUSINESS Old business, there's none listed. Item #llA NEW BUSINESS Under new business, we have one item. To consider CCPC hearing dates for the 2008 AUIR to be scheduled as follows: October 22nd, Wednesday, and October 23rd, Thursday, from 8:30 to 5:00 p.m., and October 24th, 11:00 to 5:00 p.m. Now, I know that's a long ways off, so I don't know if we have any reason to object at this point. The 23rd and the 24th are the -- and the 22nd, the -- our last meeting in October, the first and third Thursdays would be the 2nd and the 16th. So by these falling on that second to the last week of October, we would actually avoid any conflicts with our meetings and have a week inbetween them, which is kind of what we always aim for. Does anybody have any problem with these dates at this point? Page 3 1 February 21,2008 (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Well, Ray, it looks like those are acceptable. And I would suggest, because of the size of the meeting, because the productivity committee is in these meetings with us, that we schedule these in a convenience to staff and saving their time and productivity, to keep them scheduled over at the Horseshoe Drive meeting room, unless somebody has an objection. Okay, thank you, sir. Anything else? (No response.) Item #12 PUBLIC COMMENT CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Hearing nothing, there's -- public comment, there's nobody left. And now is there a motion to adjourn? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: So moved. COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Second. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Made by Commissioner Adelstein, seconded by Commissioner Vigliotti. All in favor? MR. MURRAY: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye. MR. WOLFLEY: Aye. COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries. We are adjourned. Thank you. Page 32 February 21, 2008 Thank you. ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 9:07 a.m. COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION Mark Strain, Chairman These minutes approved by the board on as presented or as corrected , Transcript prepared on behalf of Gregory Reporting Service, Inc., by Cherie'R. Nottingham. Page 33