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CLB Minutes 01/16/2008 R January 16,2008 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida January 16,2008 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 10:30 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Community Development and Environmental Services, Room 609/610, 2800 Horseshoe Drive, Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson Syd Blum Eric Guite' Glenn Herriman Lee Horn Richard Joslin Ann Keller Michael Boyd (Absent) ALSO PRESENT: Robert Zackery, Assistant County Attorney Patrick Neale, Attorney for the Board Michael Ossorio, Contractor Licensing Supervisor Tom Bartoe, Collier County Licensing & Compliance Officer Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: WEDNESDAY - JANUARY 16, 2008 TIME: 10:30 AM COLLIER COUNTY DEVELOPMENT SERVICES CENTER 2800 N HORSESHOE DR., ROOM 609-610 NAPLES, FL 34104 ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES DATE: December 19, 2007 V. DISCUSSION Peter Orifice - Scope of Carpentry license. Contractor Licensing forms VI. NEW BUSINESS Erik Bennett - Review of credit report. Luis A. Costa - Request to qualify a 20d entity. Grant Jones - Contesting citation. Rigoberto Guidicelli - Contesting citation. Art Duarte - Review of experience affidavits. VII. OLD BUSINESS VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS Case #2008-01 Paul L. Harmison D/B/A Bayshores Aluminum Construction, Inc. IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE WEDNESDAY FEBRUARY 20,2008 W. HARMAN TURNER BUILDING, 3RD FLOOR (COMMISSIONERS MEETING ROOM) 3301 E. TAMIAMI TRAIL NAPLES, FL 34104 (COURTHOUSE COMPLEX) January 16,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board for January 16th, 2008. I'd like to start with roll call to my right. Mr. Herriman? MR. HERRIMAN: Glen Herriman. MR. BLUM: Sid Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MR. HORN: Lee Horn. MR. GUITE': Eric Guite'. MS. KELLER: Ann Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Welcome, everyone. And Mr. Bartoe, any additions or deletions to the minutes? MR. BARTOE: Good morning. For the record, I'm Tom Bartoe, Collier County Licensing Investigator. One small addition. Under discussion, it says contractor licensing forms. Staff wants to discuss the forms for -- that were brought up a while back on unpaid citations. MR. OSSORIO: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. For the record, Mike Ossorio, Collier County Contractor Licensing Supervisor. If we could move that contractor licensing forms and we can have that at the end of the meeting, versus -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Forms? MR. OSSORIO: If you wouldn't mind. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That would be fine. Do I hear a motion to accept the agenda as amended? MR. BLUM: So moved, Blum. MR. JOSLIN: Second, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. Page 2 January 16,2008 MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Minutes of the last meeting. If you've had time to review them. I need a motion on that. MR. BLUM: I actually read them all cover to cover for a change. I would move to accept, Blum. MR. JOSLIN: Second, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Moving right along. Peter Orifice? MR. ORIFICE: Orifice. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Orifice. Kind of like the beach, right? There you go. Peter, if you would come up to this podium right here, I'll have . . you sworn Ill, SIr. Repeat your name. MR. ORIFICE: Peter Orifice. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're here for just a discussion. Apparently you have a question on the carpentry license? MR. ORIFICE: Yes. First of all, let me just start off saying that Page 3 January 16,2008 I own a business here called Architectural Structures of Naples, Incorporated. What I do is I build custom fences, trellises, arbors, pergolas, and basically any type of architectural feature on an exterior home. And just to start off, 15 -- before I came here, I owned a business in Massachusetts doing the same thing for 10 years, and I sold it to come here. When I came here, I got my fence contractor's license to continue doing what I've been doing. I mainly work with landscape architects doing the type of work I just explained to you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, we got the picture. MR. ORIFICE: Okay. Sorry. So then when I had the fence contractor's license, I wasn't able to do the pergola structures. So I sat and talked with Paul B. I don't remember his last name, he's retired now. MR. OSSORIO: Paul Balzano. MR. ORIFICE: Yes. And we sat down. He said I needed a carpenter's license, which I did proceed. I just recently went to pull a permit and they told me that I'm not allowed to do the pergola structure because there's a footer that was required. I guess my question is what can I do -- I'd love to be able to just show you the pictures of what I've done and just, you know, let me-- give me an idea of what I need to do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, you're here for a reason, obviously. County, you want to respond? MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, Mr. Chairman. Peter came to us several weeks ago. The City of Naples -- obviously we do the City of Naples and Marco Island as well. The City of Naples had a question pertaining to his business as pulling building permits. Carpentry Page 4 January 16,2008 contractors are a specialty trade. They usually don't pull building permits, especially for concrete. And Mr. Neale, if you could maybe read the codified version of what carpentry contractor, what the definition is. And that might shed some light. And when he's reading that definition of what a carpentry contractor (sic), Peter will probably pass out what it entails. MR. ORIFICE: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: There's no doubt he's a craftsman. The problem is is that when you have one or more -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, no, no, you don't do that. MR. ORIFICE: I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Back. You don't introduce -- oh, you're going to pass out the -- I wasn't listening, I'm sorry. I thought Peter just did that on his -- MR. OSSORIO: No, no, I asked him. This is -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Excuse me, excuse me. MR. OSSORIO: -- under public discussion. And this is something so you can help the licensing official make a determination of -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now go back. MR. OSSORIO: Just drop the stuff off and they can -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Peter, everything has to be recorded, okay? You can't just sit here and talk to us. MR. OSSORIO: So the City of Naples had a question pertaining to a carpentry contractor, this is a wood structure that has engineering and it has footers. Technically when you have something like this it usually falls under aluminum with concrete or concrete contractor. More likely it's going to be a building contractor, residential or general contractor, not a carpentry contractor. With that, Mr. Neale, do you have the codified version? MR. NEALE: I don't have the codified version, but I do have Page 5 January 16,2008 the standard version, and it's: Carpentry contractor requires 36 months' experience with a passing grade on an approved test and a passing grade two-hour business and law test in products that people who have the knowledge and skill to install any wood and metal products, including but not limited to rough framing, wood, structural, wood and metal non-structural trusses, sheathing, paneling, trim, metal framing and cabinetry. Placement of fire safing and fire stopping materials shall be permitted on walls, ceiling and floor penetrations created within the scope of work allowed by the section. MR. OSSORIO: So this gentleman pulls a building permit for a structure that requires a footer inspection, and he's going to be mixing aggregate and subbing the work out. I don't know if you do the work yourself -- MR. ORIFICE: No, I do it myself. MR. OSSORIO: You do it yourself. Unfortunately I interpret the code maybe a little more stringent than my predecessor Balzano. The City of Naples wanted to have a clarification through the licensing board -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can we have that back this way? MR. OSSORIO: -- so here we are today. MS. KELLER: What about fences, fencing license? Isn't that a kind of structure similar to a fence and as far as understanding the -- how the footings are put into the ground and -- MR. OSSORIO: There are no footers on a fence. I don't think it requires engineering to -- MS. KELLER: You use cement, though, to-- MR. OSSORIO: It is, and you can argue that it's under $1,000 or inconsequential work. But when you have engineering and you submit it to the building department and it requires a footer inspection, you know, that -- I think it rises to a level of not a carpentry contractor. I could be wrong Page 6 January 16,2008 though. MR. JOSLIN: Wouldn't he be in the same pretense as ifhe was to hire a subcontractor, masonry contractor that could actually pull a permit and get a permit for the footer section, then he does the carpentry work to finish it off? Wouldn't he be legal then just to put up all the wood? These pillars that I'm looking at on these pictures, are you capsulating, going around like a column or a cement column that someone's already put up? MR. ORIFICE: No, I install the columns. MR. JOSLIN: You install the columns also. MR. ORIFICE: The structural part is the pour that is inside of the columns, which is generally a four-by-four or six-by-six, which is specified in the engineered drawings. And then everything is tied with Simpson ties, you know. MR. JOSLIN: That would be the catch then, because that would, I think, require a general contractor to allow that structure. Because you're attaching it to a permanent structure, correct, a roof -- MR. ORIFICE: Correct. Not all the time, but sometimes, yes. MR. JOSLIN: -- an arbor, posts, pillars, and it's tied to the footer, correct? MR. ORIFICE: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: I think that would probably fall under a GC, then. MR. ORIFICE: That's great, but how can I get a GC license when I've been doing pergolas all my life? MR. OSSORIO: When is the last time you pulled a building permit? MR. ORIFICE: I pulled a building permit, I believe it was in the fall time for a job that was approved, inspected, and this was before I knew I wasn't allowed to do that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: For the benefit of those that haven't seen the pictures -- I don't even know if we're being recorded today Page 7 January 16,2008 for -- I don't see a camera, so we're usually not. I have a real problem with this. I'm really surprised that you thought you could build that under a carpentry license. Not only do we have footers but we have engineering that's necessary for a wind uplift. This attaches to a house. The uplift is probably the most crucial item in a hurricane, which would cause severe -- could cause severe damage to the house or neighbors, if those timbers start flying away. And if you have a carpentry license, I'm shocked that you thought you could build this under a carpentry license. MR. ORIFICE: Paul told me. Paul B. told me. I sat with Paul for an hour two years ago, and it took me a year-and-a-halfto get a license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, we don't have Paul here to discuss that with. MR. ORIFICE: I understand that, but I came here to ask what type of license I need to do this type of work, and this is what he had told me. And I've been doing this -- MR. BARTOE: We don't know if Paul Balzano had any ideas there would be footers involved or not. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've known Paul ever since he worked -- the whole time he was here. Ifhe saw those pictures, Paul wouldn't say that. If he saw those pictures. He may have missed -- there may have been a communication problem. The problem I have is we're not going to issue you a waiver or a pass for this one particular job. MR. ORIFICE: Well, the company's Architectural Structures, this is what I want to do, this is what I've been doing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you're going to attach to houses and need engineering for wind uplift and footings, you need a general contractor or a residential or a building contractor. MR. BARTOE: How about concrete form place and finish? Page 8 January 16,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know the details of that one. MR. JOSLIN: I don't think that would still fall under the category of what he's wanting to do. MR. ORIFICE: Wood structures. Wood structural is under carpentry. That's a structural -- that's wood structural. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What I would suggest is you come by and sit down with staff or read the licenses yourself. But carpentry isn't going to cover this. We can't make exceptions here. I don't know what you thought we could do on this board, but we can't -- we cannot make exceptions. We can't say yes, you can -- MR. ORIFICE: You tell me, what is wood structural then, under the carpentry license? What does that mean? That's what it says under the carpentry license, wood structural. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know, why don't you read it. MR. ORIFICE: I just did. I'm telling you its called wood structural. What is that? Is that not a pergola? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you have to have engineering and footers, you're going to have to have one of those three building code MR. ORIFICE: What ifthere are existing footers? I'm curious, what if there's existing footers? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're still going to have to have it, because you're going to have to have a full building permit with . . engIlleenng. Am I correct, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: That would be my understanding, yeah. I mean, what they -- again, it says rough framing, wood structural, wood and metal, non-structural trusses, you know. I think that -- ifthere is a requirement that there is engineering, it probably would require a GC or at least a residential contractor. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I think we should -- I think you Page 9 January 16,2008 made your decision, I think the board did. And I will meet with this gentleman and we'll go over and we'll give him the necessary paperwork and we'll come to a conclusion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There's just certain things that -- I mean, I do roofing, I'm not a general contractor so I'm not sitting there spiting you. But right now I have a general contractor working for me because of structural issues on a roof tie down, which is outside of my license. He is working on my permit. MR. ORIFICE: I understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's what you're -- MR. ORIFICE: My point is I've been doing this all my life and I know how to do this. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then you should pass the test real quick. MR. ORIFICE: That's correct. But how am I going to get my references for general contracting or residential contractor where that's MR. BLUM: The same way everybody else gets them. You've got to do what you've got to do; follow the rules and regulations. You're probably the most knowledgeable, comprehensive ability-wise, the best guy we ever saw in here. Okay, fine, we all admit that. Now do what you've got to do. MR. ORIFICE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the test is given every week. MR. OSSORIO: The test is given every day. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Every day? I don't think he mentioned references. References was not an issue, was it? MR.OSSORIO: References were not an issue. With those photographs, I'm sure if he provides us with documentation from Massachusetts that he's done this particular kind of work, I don't have a problem with it. Page 10 January 16,2008 We might -- if it comes down to it, we can restrict it to that category. Ifwe don't have -- ifhe's taken a general contracting license and he's passed and he can't show that he can build a high-rise or a multi-family unit, he's only done this item, the code does allow us to go ahead and restrict it to what he needs to do. MR. BLUM: I wouldn't have a problem with that either, that'd be fine. MR. ORIFICE: That would be fine then. MR. GUITE': It's a frustrating process, especially if you're coming from another area, but it's just worth it in the end. MR. ORIFICE: I understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then you can do concrete and everything, the whole ball of wax. I wish you well. MR. ORIFICE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: New business. Erik Bennett, are you present? MR. BENNETT: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would, sir, come up to that same podium, state your name. I'll have you sworn in. MR. BENNETT: My name is Erik Bennett. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I had to take a second look at you in the picture. Erik, I'm very familiar with Precision. I think that most everyone in here is. Of course they have several license holders already within the company, do they not? MR. BENNETT: One other, yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just one other? MR. BENNETT: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What are you going to be, a secondary? Page 11 January 16,2008 MR. BENNETT: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're going to stay with Precision? MR. BENNETT: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So the only thing we're looking at is your credit report, correct? MR. BENNETT: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. BLUM: I'm a little confused. You're at this point an employee of Precision? MR. BENNETT: Yes, sir, ten-and-a-halfyears. MR. BLUM: And now you want to become a principal? MR. BENNETT: They just wanted me to have the roof license. They want two, just in case something happens, I guess. MR. BLUM: I see. So you'll be an alternative license holder for Precision in the work that you're now doing? MR. BENNETT: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's a secondary license, which I have in my company as well. Everybody should have one, so that if anything happens to the primary there's continuation of the company. Anyone who's sitting in this room should have a secondary license holder, if at all possible. Question for, I guess, Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: Urn-hum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I work with Precision, and I have for years and years and years. Ifhe's qualifying a secondary for Precision, I'm not the least bit concerned about their credentials. MR. NEALE: Well, and frankly, the primary thing that is to be looked at, particularly in a business that's been in business for this long, is the credit report of the business. If they were going to qualify -- if he was to qualify a new business, the credit report of the business, if it had been in business for over a year, would be the one to be looked at. Page 12 January 16,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Of course then the second question is he could quit tomorrow, go out and start his own company. MR. NEALE: Yeah, and that is true that you're looking to do that and you are giving him, you know, the ability to take his license anywhere, frankly, if you approve the license. MR. BENNETT: I have enough problems. I don't need any more. MR. NEALE: I mean, what you could do is issue a restrictive license where he is -- its good when he's at Precision. Ifhe seeks to qualify another company, then he'd have to come back in front of the board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Come back and look at your credit then? MR. BENNETT: That's fine. I don't plan on going anywhere. MS. KELLER: But it's kind of defeating the whole purpose of having someone with a license holder in the company. They're supposed to be a financial responsibility of that person and overlooking the financial affairs of that company. And so, you know, you can play the game and say, well, we need to have somebody else on there, but in the end it kind of defeats the purpose of what it's for. MR. NEALE: Except that the financial test is the test of both the license holder and the company. But when you're looking at a qualification, you know, you look to the company's financial strength. MS. KELLER: Right, but the person who's holding, the permit holder is the one that is personally responsible for the finances of the company. So he's already coming to us with some problems, and to -- I mean, you are attesting that their credit's good and it looks good, but CHAIRMAN DICKSON: A secondary qualifier will not ever sign for a permit. He won't pull a permit. MR. BLUM: Whoa, whoa, whoa. He won't now, but he may. MR. OSSORIO: First of all, this is a specialty. He's never Page 13 January 16, 2008 going to pull a building permit. But I don't know if the code -- maybe you're mixing the State Statute 489 and our licensing ordinance. We don't have a secondary qualifier. This gentleman's going to be just as much responsible as the first party. Equal share. So there is no, well, you have to go to this gentleman first and then come to me. He's going to be responsible, if you issue a license for him today, equal as the one I issued to the gentleman a couple of weeks ago. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you're completely correct and I'm completely wrong, because I was mixing up State 489. But this isn't a state qualification, it's county only. MR. JOSLIN: So there is no what would be considered like a primary or a secondary qualifier of this particular -- MR. OSSORIO: This application should stand on its merit only. The other qualifier really has no bearing on what we're talking about today. It's nice, it's table talk, but this application should stand on its own. MR. BLUM: Do you envision a time in the near future where a lot of this can be resolved? Are you actively working to resolve these things? I'm looking at the questions and answers for the problems, and quite frankly, some of them look like you're just kind of waiting for-- just my impression, that you're just letting time go by and some of this stuffwill go away like a lot of them have gone away. And that's one way of doing it. MR. BENNETT: No, sir, I want to get my credit together. And I am currently working on it right now. I'm current on all my bills and I am working on paying off all my creditors. I do want to buy a house one day, I have a family of six, so I'm not just trying to let it go away. I am working on trying to take care of it. MR. BLUM: This is about as unpleasant a report as we've seen. MR. JOSLIN: Well, it's unpleasant in a sense, but in another Page 14 January 16,2008 sense we're not talking about thousands and thousands of dollars either here. MS. KELLER: No, it's not. MR. BLUM: No, it's relatively small amounts. MR. JOSLIN: I would be more prompt (sic) to maybe put him on a restriction for the moment, for a six-month restriction where staff can monitor to verify that he is making payments on these accounts and they are being reduced. MR. BLUM: Do you have a total that all of this adds up to that you could clean up? MR. BENNETT: I believe it's just over 6,000 as far as -- MR. BLUM: $6,000? MR. BENNETT: Yes, sir. MR. BLUM: How long do you think it will take you to clean it up? MR. BENNETT: I'm trying to do it within a year. MR. BLUM: Within a year. MR. OSSORIO: When you look at a credit report and you look at medical, the licensing -- Tom and I don't actually take too much stock in medical bills, per se. That is an unforeseen accident and that happens in this day and age. What we do look at is his other bills, you know, his phone bill, electric bill. And so I don't think its $6,000, I think it's a couple hundred dollars, myself. I mean, if you owe it, you need to pay it. And that goes on principle. If you owe a bill, you should pay it or have something in writing that you want to contest it, not just say that yeah, I don't agree with it. MS. KELLER: Many of the medical bills, if you don't have insurance, can be negotiated lower as well. MR. BENNETT: Really? MS. KELLER: Yeah. So you need to address that. Because there is some obligation to pay those as well. I don't agree with you Page 15 January 16,2008 on that, Mike. But you do -- but there is the ability to negotiate what you can do and how you can do it, so -- MR. BENNETT: Okay. MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion, if there's nobody else wants to say anything. (No response.) MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that we approve the application, providing he's on a six-month probationary period, in which after the six-month period he will provide to staff a record of payments that have been made on these accounts and which ones have been paid off, which ones are still outstanding, and which ones you are currently at that time making payments on. And if it's not within staffs acceptance, then the license will be canceled. MR. BENNETT: Okay. MR. BLUM: Discussion? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need a second first. MS. KELLER: Second, Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? MR. BLUM: I'd feel a little bit better if it was a year instead of six months, based on his own feelings. I'd like to give him a year to clean things up. I'd like to see him come back here in a year or less and say, hey, six grand went away, even though the Equifax number might not have gone up so fast like you'd like it to, at least the debts are gone. And it is a relatively small amount. MR. JOSLIN: I would be willing to amend the motion then to go for the year probation, but I would still want to see a six-month history . MR. BLUM: Yeah, absolutely. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that your amendment? Page 16 January 16,2008 MR. JOSLIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you second that? MS. KELLER: I do second that. MR. HORN: Question, shall we consider restricting it to this employer only? MR. JOSLIN: I think ifhe cleans up his act within the year's time, I think he's entitled to have the license then permanently. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't think he's going anywhere. MR. JOSLIN: I don't think so. MR. BLUM: Yeah, but he's a young guy, he's got a growing family. Who knows, he may be in business for himself a year from now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Not in this economy. MR. JOSLIN: By the letter, he's already been through a lot as it IS, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's not the time to start a new business. MR. BENNETT: I know that for a fact. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I feel comfortable with that, if you guys do. You all want to stay with that? Anymore discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a motion amended and a second. All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) Page 17 January 16,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got it. MR. BENNETT: Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, for you and everyone else that's here, even though Maggie is across the hall in contractor licensing, all of your paperwork is in here, so don't go over there today. Once this meeting is finished, they'll have all your paperwork and you can get things done. So tomorrow would be the day to come. Do well. MR. BENNETT: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Costa? MR. COSTA: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you present, sir? If you would, come up. Erik, if you want, you're finished, you can go. We won't talk anymore about you. Mr. Costa, if you would, state your name and I'll have you sworn Ill. MR. COSTA: My name is Luis Costa. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're wanting to qualify a second entity? MR. COSTA: Yep. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And if you would, tell us why and what you're doing. MR. COST A: I do Italian marble installation and I want to qualify the second business because me and my wife work together. And we get a decision she has to get a business and I have to get my own business. We still working together. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I didn't understand. You and your wife work together and-- MR. COST A: Me and my wife work together with Colorado Tile, it's the first company in my name. I got a company qualified Page 18 January 16,2008 now, they call Colorado Tile. And I want to qualify the second one because my wife is going to take some more work in Naples; try get some more work in Naples and work in Lee County. I'm qualifying Lee County too. We decided to work separately, but I have to qualify the second business for her and for me. You got it? We don't want to work together in the same company. We still live together, we still work together, but in different business. She want to get her business and I want to get my business, Colorado Tile, still the same. You got it? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Got it. MR. BLUM: I appreciate that explanation, but now I've got concerns that were raised because of the explanation. Everybody feel the same way here? MR. JOSLIN : Yeah. MR. BLUM: Ifhe's going to run his own business in Lee County, who's left to mind the store in Collier under the business that he's qualifying, he's got nothing to do with it anymore? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me ask Mr. Neale. MS. KELLER: He does, he owns 20 percent of it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is it our position to question why? MR. NEALE: Why he wants to do it? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: On a second entity. MR. NEALE: Not really. I mean, as long as there's nothing terribly nefarious about it, as long as he is going to perform the duties of a contractor on the second entity and take responsibility for it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's always been my understanding a contractor in good standing has a right to qualify a second entity, as long as it meets certain guidelines. And his actual reasons for doing it are not ours to question. Am I correct? MR. NEALE: Essentially. As long as he's not selling his license, per se. MR. BLUM: But he's basically saying he's really not going to Page 19 January 16,2008 be involved in the wife's business anymore, in the actual business that the wife has. That does raise questions for me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead, Mr. Costa. MR. COSTA: Okay, I said we're not going to be involved, but this is between me and her. We still live together, we live at the same house, but she wants to handle her own business, and I want to handle my own business. Because this involves a lot of things, it involves a bank, it involves a decision. And we have to start a new business anyway, because now everything is dead in construction, but it's not going to be like that. We're prepping for the next year, for the couple of years, they going to be busy. It's time now to get some experience, to try to start something new. Because I want to be prepared when the other situation, the business growing up again, I will be prepared, and her too, the same, experience, stuff like that. I will be with her. But between me and her, we are separate business. She got her company, I got my company. But we're still together. It's something, something very personal. MR. BLUM: How many employees does the original company now have? MR. COSTA: Well, I got only two employees this moment, because we don't have nothing going on. If I hire more employee, I have to increase the workers compensation, I have to increase our cover for insurance for the cars. We try to avoid spend some money now, because we don't need -- we really don't need more employee right at this moment. I want to get all my paperwork ready, the company ready for so when we get business, if we get us some contract we'll have to be ready for it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The other thing I can see here, and I don't have a problem with that, and, you know, I wish you well. But Page 20 January 16,2008 Rosalina has no credit because she's never been in a position to have credit. That's why there's no records on her. He's fully responsible, he takes full responsibility for her. MR. COSTA: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't have an issue with it, because everything else on his report is clean. MR. HERRIMAN: Question: Is he the only or that can sign the permit for the new company, or will she be able to? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They don't do permits. MS. KELLER: It says they both have check writing privileges in their accounts. MR. JOSLIN: Tile and marble doesn't require a permit. MR. HERRIMAN: Just a financial responsibility. MR. OSSORIO: Let me answer that question, though, in a broad sense. This is a specialty contractor so no permits required. However, ifhe is a major trade, the residential contractor or electrical, and needs to acquire a building permit, the qualifier is going to sign that permit application on both entities. Just to clarify that for you. MR. JOSLIN: Does staff have any thoughts or any problems with the first company, Colorado? MR. OSSORIO: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And here is a company, they've got full liability insurance, they even have workers' compo He's not exempt. The guy's operating aboveboard. MR. GUITE': Detailed Flooring hasn't applied for their federal employer's identification number. MR. JOSLIN: There was a -- MR. HERRIMAN: He has or has not? Has not. MS. KELLER: Probably because it hasn't been approved yet, right? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, be sure you talk into these mlCS, guys. Page 21 January 16,2008 MR. JOSLIN: I think the company is aboveboard. I will make a motion that we approve the packet. MR. BLUM: Second, Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One opposed. You got it. MR. COSTA: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So I wish you well. You heard what I said about Maggie, come finalize it tomorrow. Wish you well. MR. COSTA: I will. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Jones? Grant Jones, are you present? MR. JONES: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Come on down. If you would, state your name and I'll have you sworn in. MR. JONES: Grant Jones. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got a ticket and you're not happy about it. MR. JONES: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tell us why. MR. JONES: When I got the ticket, I was just -- the homeowner Page 22 January 16, 2008 wasn't home and I was just covering all the stuff and getting it -- you know, there was a storm coming, I think it was just after Christmas, I believe, and we had a cold front come in. So I had a guy pull up and he said that I was working without a permit. But I was working with the homeowner, he just didn't happen to be home at that time when I was up on the roof. So they gave me a $300 ticket. And I don't think that I should -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What kind of chimney is it? MR. JONES: It's an existing chimney. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Structure. Wood or brick? MR. JONES: Yeah, it's wood. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, so it was just down. MR. JONES: Yeah, it blew down in a hurricane, so it was just being rebuilt. MS. KELLER: Did they have an owner-builder permit pulled? MR. JONES: Well, he's trying to get one right now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does a chimney require a permit? MR. JONES: Well, he didn't think that it did. So that's kind of the whole problem here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm asking the county. MR.OSSORIO: There's two issues: One, the city of the Naples, the building official says yes, it requires a building permit, so we don't ask that question. The second thing is that he did not get a citation for no building permit, he got a citation for being a carpentry contractor. Obviously he stated on the record that he was on the roof. Well, Mr. Grant, what were you doing on the roof? MR. JONES: Mr. Jones. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Jones. MR. JONES: I was covering the -- making sure nothing got wet until he got home. He didn't get home until the next day. So the storm was coming, the weather was coming, and we had high winds Page 23 January 16,2008 and I was worried about, you know, things getting wet, so-- MR. OSSORIO: What kind of license do you have now? MR. JONES: I just have a -- just the regular -- I don't really -- I don't have a building license. MR.OSSORIO: Do you have a business tax license? MR. JONES: No. No, I took the business and law test, but I failed. So I didn't retake -- MR. JOSLIN: So at this moment you have no license under your belt at all? MR. JONES: No. Well, I do have a license, but it's just an occupational -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's not a license. MR. JONES: Right. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, if it pleases the board, can we have Ian Jackson sworn in too as well? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, hang on. At this point we kind of answered all our questions. MR. JONES: This wasn't -- I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ifhe had a carpentry license, I was going to take issue with the citation. The problem is, you don't have a license. MR. JONES: Right. But I wasn't working, sir. I wasn't up there working. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, you were. MR. JONES: Well, I wasn't. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You were on the roof performing for the owner. And even if the owner had an owner-builder permit, you can't work for him. MR. JONES: He was under the impression that he didn't need a permit because it was a chimney being rebuilt, it was a rebuilt structure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But my point is, you're not licensed,o Page 24 January 16, 2008 you're not insured. That whole issue is the protection of the homeowner. Because if you fall off that roof and get hurt, you can end up owning that house. Mr. Homeowner, you can sit down. MR. JONES: I mean, I wasn't -- I understand that I don't have the license to do it, but I wasn't using the license for it, it was just a homeowner-builder. You know, if we even needed permit. So he was up there helping me -- MR. HORN: It's not the issue of a permit; it's not the issue of being at this moment unlicensed. It's the fact that we have a letter here in front of us from you that says that you were on that roof while covering your tools with a tarp, and to protect the chimney. We have been rebuilding the chimney. In other words, you're admitting that you were doing work on that roof. MR. JONES: No, I said that in the past that we were rebuilding. Not at that time, not when I was issued the citation. MR. JOSLIN: Well, "we have been" is a pretty broad statement. When you say we have been, that could have been today, could have been yesterday, it could have been a year ago. MR. JONES: That's my point. The citation was for working without a license that day. I wasn't up there working is my point. MS. KELLER: But you just told us you had been rebuilding, so you have been -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you signed a letter that said you had. MR. JONES: With the homeowner. But there's no law against that. MR. GUITE': Are you getting paid? MR. JOSLIN: I would like to hear from, was it Ian? Just to hear his comments. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Ian, if you would, come over Page 25 January 16,2008 to this other podium. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I just want to clarify, while Ian is getting sworn in, is that this is what our job is. We do the investigation. We did not witness it, but obviously from his testimony, that he did do the work. So there's probable cause to issue the citation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ian, if you would, state your name and I'll have you sworn in. MR. JACKSON: Ian Jackson, licensing officer for Collier County. (Speaker was duly sworn.) MR. JOSLIN: Ian, could you tell us what actually transpired when you stopped at this home and saw this gentleman working on the house? MR. JACKSON: Yes, I received a call from Tom Marinino, who works for the City of Naples building department regarding this chimney that was being built. He asked me to come out and take a look and give my assessment of the situation. Mr. Jones was on the roof when I arrived. Mr. Jones came off of the roof. I observed the chimney under construction. Whether it was being rebuilt or built, that I'm not sure of. From what I understand, the day before the work was stopped by the City of Naples for not having a building permit, which is why I'm under the impression Mr. Jones was covering up, because work had stopped until his building permit was issued. I asked Mr. Jones ifhe built the chimney. He said he did build the chimney. Looking in the county system, I see there is a business tax receipt for the maintenance service or handyman business of Mr. Jones where he signs an affidavit stating he's not going to do this type of work. Based on that, I issued the citation. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, for the record, Mike Ossorio. Page 26 January 16,2008 Can we -- we have some information here. Can we put this in evidence as Exhibit number A? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, if you would so mark that. THE COURT REPORTER: Mr. Dickson, do you need to mark that? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We don't really need to mark it, but if you'll just note it, because it's not a case that we're going to keep on file. MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that we accept this packet from Collier County tax collector, via Mike Ossorio, into evidence against Mr. Grant Jones. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MR. BLUM: Second, Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Did Mr. Jones -- did he get a copy? MR. JONES: That was like a year ago. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead, Mr. Ossorio. MR.OSSORIO: I have no other questions other than you need to review the packet, Exhibit No. A, and maybe Ian Jackson can go through it with you. Mr. Jones got a citation before, and obviously it's not paid either. So this would be the second citation he received. MR. JONES: I was told that when I retake the test, which I do plan on doing, that I could pay for it then. I haven't been working lately because there's not much work out there, so I haven't even been Page 27 January 16,2008 using my license that I got; the handyman's license I haven't even used. I haven't worked in like six months, so -- MR. BLUM: Jones Custom Carpentry, is that you? MR. JONES: No. It was going to be. See, when I made those fliers and when I made those cards was after I had taken my test and I was under the impression that I passed. I jumped the gun because I wanted to get a head start. So it was a dumb thing to do, and I was under the impression that -- I thought I passed the test, but apparently I didn't. MR. BLUM: I'm glad you said it was a dumb thing to do so I didn't have to. MR. JONES: And I would never do it again. MR. BLUM: Twenty-two year's experience, licensed and insured. MR. JONES: I was going to be insured. MR. BLUM: That transcends dumb, I think. I'm ready to make a motion here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Make it. MR. BLUM: I make a motion that this citation stands, that Mr. Jones be compelled and asked to pay it. Ifhe does not pay it, all due recourse should be taken. When and if he passes his test, if this has not been paid his license should not be issued. And I would constrain him from putting out any kind of information along the lines of what I'm seeing here, because that's just blatant fraud. MR. JONES: Yes, sir, Mr. Blum, that was -- like I said, that was about a year ago. And that was -- you know, I don't even -- I didn't realize that it was such a -- MR. BLUM: You thought you passed -- MR. JONES: -- such a big offense. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, that's enough. I've got a motion. Do I have a second? Page 28 January 16, 2008 MR. GUITE': I'll second. MR. JOSLIN: What about the second ticket that's not paid yet? MR. BLUM: There's two citations? MR. JONES: Yeah, that's why we're here because of this -- MR. JOSLIN: On the packet that we have it was just turned in as evidence that he got a ticket for doing basically the same thing for the first citation. MR. BLUM: And that one hasn't been paid either. MR. NEALE: No, he signed a cease and desist order in coordination with that first ticket. And I would opine that he was probably in violation of that cease and desist order when he got his second one. Now, the board does have, you know, the -- if they find him in violation and find this ticket to be valid -- find the citation to be valid, you have the option of imposing the fine, at minimum the fine on the face of the ticket and up to $1,000 per violation. MR. JOSLIN: For the second ticket but not the first one? MR. NEALE: It would be my opinion that that first ticket has been reopened, even though he had signed the cease and desist order, because he violated the cease and desist order. So it would be my opinion that both tickets are currently on the table for the board to review. MR. BLUM: Well, since that isn't -- my feeling would be that that's a separate issue to be taken up. I will amend my motion to include a one-year probation when and ifhe gets his license as well. So pay the fine, get the license, don't pay fine, you don't get the license. And if everything works out wonderful, you're still on probation for a year. That's my motion. MR. JOSLIN: Of the one ticket or both tickets? MR. BLUM: Both. MR. JOSLIN: Both tickets? MR. BLUM: Both, absolutely. Page 29 January 16,2008 MR. GUITE': So he has to pay both tickets? MR. BLUM: Absolutely. MR. JOSLIN: He pays both tickets and he's on probation still for a year with this license that he has. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ifhe gets the license -- yeah-- MR. JOSLIN: Passes the test, whatever. That motion I'll second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Jones, pay your citations. Quit working as a licensed contractor, please. It's only going to get worse. MR. JOSLIN: Do you read those signs that are along the side of the road when you're driving down the road in Collier County that says contracting without a license is a felony? This is your second offense. Next time won't be good. MR. BLUM: Mr. Neale, could you just quickly outline the penalties for working as a unlicensed contractor, should we go that way? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Too many people talking. MR. NEALE: Ifhe's working as an unlicensed contractor, certainly there are penalties outside of 489. But the minimum penalties are on these violations he can also be prosecuted, I believe Page 30 January 16, 2008 criminally, for misrepresenting himself as an unlicensed contractor. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, just to clarify the same guidelines. We have a policy in the building department that the first offense 300, second offense 500, third offense, we bring it down the street to the economics crime unit. State Statute 489, Section 1, I believe, it is a misdemeanor. And we prosecute in the circuit court. So Mr. Neale's right on target. MR. BLUM: It's serious stuff. We're trying to give you a real head's up here. This is serious stuff. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: May I say something? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who are you? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm the homeowner. MR. JONES: He's the homeowner, a friend of the family. So I mean, I wasn't even working as a contractor, that's why I don't understand why I'm being charged for working without a license. I wasn't even using my license. I was doing it with the homeowner. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me state this one more time. Mr. Homeowner, no, we're not going to hear you. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I don't think that's fair, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's fine. I have a signed letter that he was rebuilding the chimney, covering his tools. He's done it before. The issue is over with. Pay your fines, don't do it again. Case is closed. We've already dealt with it. MS. KELLER: I'd consider-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you want to make an appeal, there is an appeal -- whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, one at a -- if you want to make appeals, there are appeals procedures. MR. JONES: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay? And you can talk to the county attorney about that. Thank you. MR. JONES: So how much am I being charged now? How Page 3 1 January 16,2008 much is the fine? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pay both of them. MR. JONES: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Face value. MR. JOSLIN: $600, I believe the total is. Two $300 fines. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, gosh, I don't even -- Mr. -- I'm going to really try to do this -- MR. BLUM: Guidicelli. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Guidicelli? Good morning, sir. MR. GUIDICELLI: Good morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would, state your name and I'll have you sworn in. MR. GUIDICELLI: Rigoberto Guidicelli. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That sounds good when you say it. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You probably feel real good about this after that. MR. GUIDICELLI: I just want to pay my fine and get out of here. I think all contractors should be here and go through this process, that way they can see how serious this really is. I'm here because I did get a fine for $300 for -- benefit of the doubt, I was pruning a coconut tree. And the gentleman, the inspector -- very nice person, by the way. I hope all the employees or inspectors are like that, Mr. Alan Kennette, advised me that that was considered tree service. It was only one palm tree, we were cutting the dead branches and the dead coconuts. The reason we were there is because the dry coconuts were falling on the dealer, a car dealer. That's the reason we were really there. There was one that seemed to be alive, sort of dead, that was cut. So that was considered tree service. So there's a little benefit of the doubt there that I see from my point of view. Basically I'm asking for a -- well, he doesn't have -- Page 32 January 16, 2008 from what I understand, he has either yea or nay, either give me the fine or don't give me the fine, there's no warning citation, as far as I understand. Is that the case? Is that true? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I guess so. I've never seen a warning, no. MR. GUIDICELLI: Okay, so there's no warning sign. I wish, if you can in the future, maybe give him the opportunity to give a warning sign, that would be something that would save us maybe some time. But being that there wasn't at that time, I'm here to see if, based on the benefit of the doubt, Murphy's Law, to just see if you guys can CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What is your license? MR. GUIDICELLI: My license is occupational, because all I do is lawns. That's it, cut lawns. So I don't require any other licenses. I do have -- if! may, I do have Workmen's Comp, liability, my payroll, which covers the employees that I have to do what I do. So I don't go there. And on top of that, so there won't be any doubts in the future, I did apply for the licenses of tree service, just in case. So I have both receipts here of it. And I'm in the middle of taking the test now, I think, on the 12th of February. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Question for the county. Are we saying that the lawn service people can't cut down a dead palm frond? MR. GUIDICELLI: If! may, can I-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me go to county first. MR. OSSORIO: If you -- talking about hypothet-- I have no idea. Mr. Kennette was out there, maybe he can testify what he did observe. It has been common practice that if a lawn maintenance person is cutting grass and palm fronds hit him in the head, then he can take a little, not an electric saw but a pole saw and just take it down for the Page 33 January 16,2008 homeowner. Because obviously the definition of contractor is you have to be getting paid for services or he has to appear to be paid for servIces. So with that said, that's something that -- that's what they're out in the field to do, that's what the investigators or officers do, they do the investigation. And I wasn't out there, so if you want to hear testimony of what occurred out there, then Alan Kennette's here, he can answer those questions for you. But if it's one tree and you're cutting the grass and it's hitting you in the head and you take it down because of safety reasons, I have no problem with that. And I will probably -- if the gentleman came to my office, I probably would void that ticket out under the statute that I have the authority to do so that it was issued in error. But I have no idea what was out there in this case. MR. JOSLIN: Let's hear Mr. Kennette. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You wanted to say something? MR. GUIDICELLI: Yeah, it is higher, it was not hitting me in the face, from what I understand, talking to Mr. -- is it Kinneth? Did I pronounce that right? You pronounce it differently, Kenneth? MR. OSSORIO: No, I'm not Alan Kennette -- MR. GUIDICELLI: No, but how do you pronounce it. Kennette? MR. OSSORIO: It's Kennette. MR. GUIDICELLI: He explained to me that I could cut the dry as far as I can reach them, but not the live ones. The other mistake that my guys made was that they had a chain saw there. Not that they were using it on the tree, because they cut it down so it won't create so much bulk for the truck. So I think that's where the doubt was, just to clarify a little bit. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Kennette, you want to come up? Go over to that other podium. Just kind of put it together. Page 34 January 16,2008 State your name, I'll have you sworn in. MR. KENNETTE: My name's Alan Kennette. K-E-N-N-E-T-T-E. I work for contractor licensing, field investigator. (Speaker was duly sworn.) MR. KENNETTE: What I observed was, I was riding by the dealership, there was about an eight-foot ladder up against a palm tree with a dump truck sitting alongside of it, or a pickup truck. The gentleman was up on the ladder with a chain saw, he was removing some palm fronds. The -- there were some dead ones, but the one that were on the ground were all live. He was, like, trimming it up and the coconut palms were being removed. When I stopped and walked over, he was still shaping that palm tree. I told him to stop, asked where the boss, the owner of the company was, which the gentleman was there. I went over and talked to him about it, that, you know, I don't have a problem with him removing the dead palm fronds and some of the coconuts that were falling on the car, because he said the dealership asked him as a favor to go ahead and go up there and trim that off. And I said well, you do need a license to be up there, especially with the gentleman up on the ladder with a chain saw in his hand trimming that palm tree up. He said, well, I thought they were using it to cut down below. I said, well, they probably were, but when I observed, they were cutting the palm tree itself, and that definitely needs to have a tree trimming license, which I said he'd have to stop trimming it. And he said he was only doing that one. But there were three other ones besides that one. Now, I don't know if I caught him when they were just starting to do it or that was the only one they were doing. I didn't pursue it with the dealership because I didn't want to make an issue with the dealership to get him in trouble and then they Page 35 January 16,2008 wouldn't probably use his service or anything. So I just explained to him what he needed and issued him a citation for doing tree trimming work, as we do not give warnings. The amount of people we deal with, giving warnings is like looking the other way. We have to take action, and that's how I explained it to him. MR. JOSLIN: So in your opinion, you felt that he was actually manicuring that tree for the dealership and possibly maybe a couple there or more. MR. KENNETTE: Right. From what I could see on the ground by where they were working there was a lot of live palm fronds, not only dead ones, there were some live ones there, which I pointed out to the owner, Mr. Guidicelli. I pointed out to him that if it was only the dead ones, I wouldn't complain, but it looked, in my opinion, they were trimming those trees up. MR. GUIDICELLI: Just for the doubt, I know that he didn't see -- I arrived, I didn't see my guys there, because when I arrived think you were right behind me, if I'm not mistaken. There was only one coconut tree there. That's the only one in the front of the dealer. I don't want you to think that there were 10 of them and we were planning to pursue -- there was only one there. That's the O'Brien dealer on Davis. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Neale, options? MR. NEALE: Well, if you find him in violation -- if you find the citation was valid and that he was committing the act as suggested, the board is really constrained to find him in violation and impose at minimum the fines set out on the citation. Now, the county had indicated that they potentially would consider withdrawing it, then that certainly, as Mr. Ossorio correctly stated, within his purview. MR. JOSLIN: I don't think I would go along with a withdraw on it because of the fact that Mr. Kennette was out there doing his job and Page 36 January 16,2008 he was actually caught doing the service. Now, right or wrong, whether it was under your license qualifications or not, you admitted that you were on the tree and it was cut down. So just in the sake of being on this board for as many years as I have, and never -- I don't think we've ever not carried through with a citation that one of our investigators have given out, then I would have to go along with the citation, that you pay. MR. BLUM: The key thing for me was the live fronds on the ground. Live fronds don't fall off. And Mr. Kennette would not tell me it was live fronds on the ground if they weren't there. And the only way they got there is if they were cut. Case closed -- MR. GUIDICELLI: No, I'm not questioning that. There were some there -- MR. BLUM: -- whether there was a mistake or not-- MR. GUIDICELLI: And that's one of the things that I even showed him, told him that I have the insurance to be pruning. And he explained to me actually that, that the fronds were part of the tree, you can't do that, and all that. So what I'm saying, why I'm here is I didn't quite understand it. It's not like I did 10 trees or had -- you know, I wouldn't be here, I would be embarrassed to be here. It was one tree. There was, I guess, misunderstanding from me, I guess, from my point of view for the law. But I just want you to know that I comply with everything. I'm in business three years now, going into my fourth. Always had my Workmen's Comp, insurance, liability. My insurance even covers the pruning, which a lot of lawn care companies, I don't even think they have Workmen's Comp or liability. So I'm looking for a break here, a benefit of the doubt to say, you know what, I can see what you're saying, because yes, it does cover pruning, but don't cut that one, it's alive. To me I wasn't doing Page 37 January 16,2008 tree service, is what I'm trying to say. MR. BLUM: We're with you. MS. KELLER: But you said you're going to take your test for the tree -- MR. GUIDICELLI: Yes, I have applied for it. I have both -- MS. KELLER: Because, actually, you're going to learn a lot about how you have to trim a tree, and we've all been through that and learned -- MR. GUIDICELLI: Well, the reason is because I don't want to be in this situation ever again. So I'm trying to prevent -- I don't like to be on that edge. MS. KELLER: And if you get that license, you'll make enough money that you can pay this fine -- consider yourself -- MR. GUIDICELLI: Then let's look at the county's pocket versus my pocket. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio, do you want to withdraw this or not? MR. GUIDICELLI: Please. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Personally, my opinion is, it's getting a little too picky. Okay, I know breaking the law. And first of all, whether it was one red light or one stop sign or 10 stop signs, it doesn't matter. So throw that argument away, it stinks. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I have no problem withdrawing any citation. This gentleman came forth with the board. He's very honest, he's applied to take the exams. However, our office is all about being consistent, how we conduct our business. No matter if it's one person with a handyman license taking apart a sprinkler head and fixing it and getting charged for it or one person taking a trap underneath a sink and it's a plumbing contractor, those are all minor. What's one tree. We try to be consistent. I have no opinion. The board makes those opinions, I'm just a fact-finding person that brings it to the board. So does Alan Kennette. Page 38 January 16,2008 I do want to note, Alan did note that there were three other trees there. They were not coconuts, but they were other trees, looked like they were freshly trimmed. And we haven't heard testimony on that fact. I'm sure maybe he can elaborate that, may he can clear the air with that as well. MR. GUIDICELLI: We have not touched any other trees on that property. And the reason why we did it, again, is because of dry coconuts falling on the car dealer. That was just -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And my understanding, Alan, your testimony was you didn't know if they planned to do other trees. It wasn't that you saw cuttings from other trees. MR. KENNETTE: Those other three trees hadn't been touched yet. They were working on the first one. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's kind oflike the highway patrolman that stopped me doing eight miles over the speed limit. Yeah, he could have written me, but he let me go with a warning. MR. JOSLIN: But under those pretenses I think the state highway patrolman backed away and didn't give you the citation. But under this pretense, Mr. Kennette did give him the citation, and he is really guilty. So if we don't carry out with the citation, then we're going to have every lawn service out here in Collier County coming in here -- MS. KELLER: We're going to be so -- MR. JOSLIN: -- trimming a couple of trees now and then and they're going to get a break. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, I have no problem upholding the citation. Obviously it's in your ordinance that you can -- a $300 fine or up to 1,000. And I don't mind dropping it down to $100, just the cost of the hearing. That would be fine with me as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you quit raising your hand. You make me feel like Judge Judy, okay. MR. GUITE': I've got one question. On the citation, it says Page 39 January 16,2008 palm tree chain saw. Is the chain saw the issue? MR. KENNETTE: That's part of the issue. Because ifhe only has a lawn maintenance license, he doesn't carry insurance for his worker to be up in a tree with a chain saw on a regular -- MR. GUITE': So he was up in the tree-- MR. KENNETTE: He was up on the ladder-- MR. GUITE': -- the chain saw wasn't in his trailer? MR. KENNETTE: No, he was up on the ladder using the chain saw. MR. GUIDICELLI: And the ladder is the dealer that brought it out. We weren't even going to use it. He brought it out, said, hey -- MR. GUITE': Wait a minute, wait a minute. MR. GUIDICELLI: No, because it was a big ladder. I just want to make clear, it doesn't fit in our truck. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Stop. MR. BLUM: Mr. Chairman, the citation stands. I think maybe this has something to do with your workers -- if you weren't personally there when they went up on the ladder, is that what I'm hearing? MR. GUIDICELLI: Well, I was within seconds-- MR. BLUM: But the worker was up in the tree and you weren't there. MR. GUIDICELLI: No, they were not on the tree. I asked him MR. BLUM: They were on a ladder with a chain saw and you weren't physically there at that particular moment when Mr. Kennette saw them. Is that right? MR. GUIDICELLI: Their intent was to go up there, yes, if that's the question. MR. BLUM: Now I'm hearing intent? MR. GUIDICELLI: They were not up there is the answer. MR. BLUM: Mr. Kennette? Page 40 January 16,2008 MR. KENNETTE: The gentleman was up there. That's why I stopped. I wouldn't have stopped ifhe wasn't up in the tree. MR. GUIDICELLI: If! may, he was up in the tree cutting? MR. KENNETTE: He was on the ladder, cutting -- MR. GUIDICELLI: I wasn't there, so I'm sorry. MR. KENNETTE: -- with the chain saw. MR. BLUM: That's what I was asking. Because my impression was that you weren't physically on the site when Mr. Kennette observed what the reason for the citation was given. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I move that the citation stands-- MR. BLUM: So therefore, my feeling is your people may not have had the correct instruction from you on what their scope of work could be. And now that falls on you as the owner. MR. GUIDICELLI: Correct. And that's perfectly clear. But again, even if we would have had the proper scope, I didn't know to tell him just cut the dry, don't cut the fronds -- MR. BLUM: You're on a ladder with a chain saw. Whether it's my ladder or his ladder or God's ladder, it's kind of irrelevant. The guy should have never been on a ladder with a chain saw. Hey, you don't even need a chain saw on what you do. And to use somebody else's ladder, you don't even know whether that ladder was a good ladder or a bad ladder or an improved ladder. So this whole scope and the whole reason for these things are all the things you did wrong and your people did wrong. I think the citation was done in very good taste, very well executed. MR. GUIDICELLI: Can I ask a question? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, we've had enough. We've beat this to death. I move that the citation stands at a reduced price of $150. MR. JOSLIN: I'll second the motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? MR. BLUM: I'm not in favor oflowering the price to $100. Page 41 January 16,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I figured that. MR. NEALE: That's something that really, if you find the citation valid, you're also finding that that's -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He was going to go 100. MR. BLUM: Well, that's not the citation. MR. NEALE: The statute and the rules say the minimum you can go is the -- unless they rewrite the citation to be a recommended fine of 150 -- MR. JOSLIN: So it's either all or nothing. MR. BLUM: Right. MS. KELLER: Okay, let's do-- MR. OSSORIO: I assumed that the board could find -- it doesn't say it in the statute? MR. NEALE: Unfortunately, in the statute it says the minimum is the amount set forth on the citation. MR.OSSORIO: Well, then the county's position is let's go ahead and withdraw the citation. MR. BLUM: Oh, brother. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's done. County took the citation back. MR. BLUM: I've got to go on record here. MS. KELLER: Me, too. I totally object to that. MR. BLUM: I've got to go on record here. This is a blatant disregard for everything that I'm here standing for. MR. JOSLIN: I don't want to have a bunch oflawn services coming in here and wanting to trim trees, that's what we're going to see. MR. BLUM: Michael, I really think you want to think this -- MS. KELLER: -- citations. And that's what these guys are paid for is to go out and decide whether or not a citation is valid or not. And I find it very offensive -- MR. BLUM: Totally. Page 42 January 16,2008 MS. KELLER: -- to you who made that decision. And I agree with you. MR. BLUM: This was allowed to come before the board -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, if they pulled it, is it over? MR. NEALE: Well, it is. There is an alternative that does exist for what are called minor violations under Section 22-202.A of the code, subsection two. Is for a minor violation, which is a violation of any provision of regulatory law, including the section when it is, one, reasonable for staff to assume that the violator at the time of the violation was not aware of the provision that he violated, or it can be assumed that it was not clear to the violator how to comply. And two, that the violation has not then resulted in economic harm or physical harm to any person. And three, the violation has neither adversely affected the public health, safety or welfare nor created any significant threat of such adverse effect, then a notice of noncompliance may be issued which identifies the specific provision that was violated, provides information how to comply with that provision and specify a reasonable time for full compliance. MR.OSSORIO: Understood that we have that ability when they have a cease and desist order. And he will receive one. And also, his demeanor is when he found out he was in violation he came down, he got -- stopped what he was doing, that one coconut tree, and he applied for a license. How much did you pay the county, $100 per-- MR. GUIDICELLI: $100 per. I'm taking the business law and MR. OSSORIO: So it's $200 to take the exams, correct? MR. GUIDICELLI: Plus the test, which is another $70. So it's going to add up to $300. MR. BLUM: That's really irrelevant. MR. JOSLIN: That's the license you should have had before Page 43 January 16,2008 you -- MR. BLUM: He should have had it in the first place. I don't want to hear -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wait, wait, wait, no. One at a time. Is it over, then, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: If the county withdrawals, it is over, if there is no citation to continue. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: County withdrew it, it's a mute issue. Glad you got your other license. MR. GUIDICELLI: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See you later. MR. BLUM: Wait a minute. I'm sorry. MR. HERRIMAN: It's over. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yep. MR. BLUM: It isn't over for me, Mr. Chairman. MS. KELLER: You don't have anything to say -- MR. BLUM: And I don't think it's over for a lot of people on this board. Good for this gentleman. I had one of our inspectors see an unlicensed contractor on a ladder with a chain saw. I'm sorry, that negates any compassion that I might have felt up until I heard the chain saw in the tree part. MR. OSSORIO: Well, Mr. Blum-- MR. BLUM: I think we've made a travesty of what we're here for today with this decision, quite frankly, and I'm terribly disappointed in Mr. Ossorio. And I've got to go on record as saying it. And I don't think I'm the only one here that feels that way. MR. OSSORIO: When you deal with a chain saw and you deal with a ladder, the statute's pretty clear, when you deal with the workers' comp, if I did have the tree license and I had three employees and those three employees were 50 feet up in the air and they were trimming this coconut tree. Page 44 January 16, 2008 So mind you, you have this huge chain saw in your hand and you're 50 feet up in the air and you're trimming this tree and you have a tree license. Would you think that you would need workers' comp on that individual? Yes or no? MR. BLUM: Absolutely. MR. OSSORIO: You're wrong, Mr. Blum, you don't. MR. BLUM: I said I would think it. I don't know that I'm right but -- MR. OSSORIO: You're wrong. MR. BLUM: -- to me personally, I wouldn't allow one of my guys -- you asked the question, I'm going to tell you why I'm thinking and what I'm thinking, okay? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, wait just a minute. Let him finish. He asked you one quick question. I'll moderate this. MR. BLUM: That doesn't go to the issue. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One at a time, one at a time. Go ahead, Mr. Ossorio. MR. OSSORIO: No, the State of Florida, the workers' compo statute is if you are a -- you have three employees or less and you're trimming trees, workers' comp is not required. MR. JOSLIN: No, but on the other hand if it's not required and that chain saw was to happen to come out of his hand, cut his leg off, cut the ladder and the man falls down and kills himself, who do you think is going to get sued? The dealership? The man than runs the company? MR. HERRIMAN: Everybody. MS. KELLER: All of them. MR. JOSLIN: So that's the reason why workmen's compo is covered. MR. OSSORIO: There's no doubt about it -- MR. JOSLIN: Now there are also rules that say workmen's Page 45 January 16,2008 compo says if you have an operations section that you're setting up as a business, he has a lawn service, he is covered only on the ground. He's not allowed to go off the ground. And the workmen's compo policies say so. Because he's working with machinery on the ground. Therefore, if that man would have fallen from that tree and would have hurt himself with that chain saw, his workmen's compo wouldn't have paid anyway. MR. OSSORIO: Well, I'm not here to argue -- belabor the point. I'll just go ahead and say that the county withdraws his application. He is going to meet the requirements of the code. MR. JOSLIN: I agree with you, Mr. Blum. MR. BLUM: I'd like to poll this panel to see if I'm alone in this. I'm just disappointed beyond belief. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We can poll the panel after the meeting, because I'm not going to take a vote on something that's been pulled. MR. BLUM: I'm going to address a little bit of bias on your part, Mr. Dickson, I'm sorry. MR. JOSLIN: Let's move on. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Art Duarte. If you would, sir, state your name and I'll have you sworn in. MR. DUARTE: It's Arturo Duarte. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, usually when we get one of these, the county's called on one of your recommendations and they say they didn't do it or they don't agree with it. Is that the case, County? MR. OSSORIO: No, not this particular case. This one is actually -- on the face of the application the affidavits don't really specify roof coating, roof painting, roof cleaning. This gentleman has been -- I think he's from New York and he does window cleaning. And all his affidavits are for basically window Page 46 January 16, 2008 cleaning. So with that is that he doesn't show any experience, so he's petitioned the board. I have not called his references because his references don't mention roof coating, roof painting, roof cleaning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Duarte? MR. JOSLIN: Could I ask a silly question just for the record here? Maybe you can advise me, Mr. Dickson, what would be considered roof coating? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There's two licenses: One is for painting, and there's a separate one for roof coating, which is really pressure cleaning. MR. JOSLIN: Pressure cleaning? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And there is some coating that's going on. Some of you have seen these people putting this wonder material on top of these tile roofs, which they end up getting a new tile roof within two or three years after that. But it specifically says on that category, once I find it here, that you're not allowed to do any roofing repairs of any kind. Right, Mr. Neale? Are you there yet? MR. NEALE: Yeah, I'm just -- roof cleaning, I believe that is correct, but let me -- MR. JOSLIN: This roof coating that you're speaking of, that would be like putting a coating on top of, say, a tile roof? Is that what you're speaking of? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It could even be a flat roof. You could be painting roofs, which some people do that for reflection. MR. JOSLIN: How about coating with like new rocks on top of a flat roof? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, that's going to get into asphalt products and it won't fly. MR. BARTOE: I think Page 20, Mr. Dickson. MR. NEALE: Yeah, it's qualified to clean, paint or coat a roof Page 47 January 16,2008 by means of pressure-operated equipment, hand application or otherwise. This category specifically does not include roof repair. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've got an older one than you do. MR. NEALE: And that's on the codified and the 1.6? MR. ZACHARY: 1.6.3.35. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Roof coating. Right there. So you're going to -- what you're going to do is -- are you going to -- what are you going to do, pressure clean? MR. DUARTE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you don't have experience for that, right? MR. DUARTE: No, I have experience in roof cleaning, window cleaning. I had my business from 1978 to around '95. Then I moved to Florida and I took another job. And you know, given the situation the last couple of years, I purchased Extreme Cleaning, which he had a license for roof cleaning. And '89 or '90, I did a lot of roof cleaning up in Boca Raton. But the guy sold the business and it's hard to get in touch with him. So-- but I have the experience. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What years were they, '88 and '89 in Boca Raton? MR. DUARTE: Plus I did some -- you know, for Extreme, for the previous owner, I did some, you know, work for him also. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. But there's nowhere you can get affidavits, right? MR. DUARTE: I mean, I have affidavits from, you know, even from the one that I got for the painting. The guy is no longer in business. I did work for him for maybe 10 years, but no longer in business in Jersey. MR. JOSLIN: Where is your office located at Collier Boulevard? Kind of -- is it on Marco or -- MR. DUARTE: No, that's in Naples, 8595 Collier Boulevard. Page 48 January 16,2008 MR. GUITE': By Home Depot? MR. DUARTE: No, that's by the Publix. MR. JOSLIN: Collier Boulevard would be -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That used to be 951. MR. JOSLIN: Oh, by Rattlesnake Hammock Road. Okay. Is this the address of the business and your home? MR. DUARTE: No, my home is -- I live at The Shores, 7735 W oodbrook. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He needs three of them, right, Michael? MR. OSSORIO: No, just one. He can go down and get a business tax license for pressure cleaning, and that's what he wants to do. But if he wants to be able to do roof coating, roof cleaning, which would be pressure cleaning the rooftop, and roof painting, which you discussed earlier, he would need one license. It's called roof coating, roof cleaning, roof painting license. MR. JOSLIN: Are you licensed in any other counties, any other places now? MR. DUARTE: No. MR. JOSLIN: No. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Dickson, were you asking verification of experience? You need two or more. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Two or more? Because I see the one, that's why I was asking. Okay. MR. BLUM: So the only one we have here is for cleaning, we don't have anything for pressure washing. Window cleaning is all the experience that we've got in writing? MR. HERRIMAN: No, here's one on pressure washing from Dan Hatch. Dan Hatch. Did you work for Dan Hatch? MR. DUARTE: Yes, sir. MR. HERRIMAN: So he can go up 20 stories and he can run a Page 49 January 16,2008 pressure washer. MS. KELLER: So Dan Hatch -- MR. HERRIMAN: Why not let him go on the roof? MS. KELLER: -- was the previous owner of Extreme Cleaning? MR. DUARTE: Yes, ma'am. MS. KELLER: Okay. So you worked for him and-- MR. DUARTE: Yes. MS. KELLER: -- then you bought the business from him? MR. DUARTE: Correct. MR. OSSORIO: Unfortunately Mr. Dan Hatch is -- his description is all types of window cleaning, which I personally don't care about, and pressure cleaning, which then again I don't personally care about pressure cleaning. This is -- the category is roof coating, roof painting, roof cleaning. And on that affidavit, it doesn't meet the criteria. You need to say that yeah, I've gone on mobile homes and I've painted the roof tops and I've pressure cleaned a tile roof. That's what we're looking for. I wouldn't want to send this gentleman on Crayton Road doing a pressure cleaning on a tile roof, unless he shows us experience. Imagine if we issued him a license for roof cleaning and he was up 20 floors cleaning windows? Well that's fine. But it's not going on somebody's $80,000 roof cleaning it and stepping on where he needs to be stepping properly to make sure, because that's all hands on. It's only a business procedure test, so it's not a trades test. So the affidavits will come into play. MS. KELLER: Is Dan Hatch the current permit holder for Extreme Cleaning? MR. DUARTE: No. MS. KELLER: Who is? MR. OSSORIO: I don't know if Dan Hatch even has a license. It says N/ A. Page 50 January 16,2008 MS. KELLER: That's what I-- MR. OSSORIO: I couldn't tell you. MS. KELLER: -- was wondering, ifhe had the license before. MR. HERRIMAN: The person that you worked for in Boca that you cleaned roofs for, you can't find him? MR. DUARTE: No, he sold the business. MR. HERRIMAN: Can you find any witnesses that worked for him? MR. DUARTE: The new owner says I don't know anything about it, you know. That was five, six years ago. Even longer than that. But this is all I've done all my life, you know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you just going to clean roofs? MR. DUARTE: No, no. We do -- you know, we do cleaning in general. Roof is one of the things that, you know, we're interested in getting a license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why has your credit got so many collections on it? MR. DUARTE: I was a realtor and I invested in some properties. And we all know what the market did. I held on too long, and now I'm stuck with them. And I fell behind on a couple of payments, but I caught up. MS. KELLER: Actually, you're not caught up. We have your credit report. MR. BLUM: I think we can all understand the real estate problem. MR. DUARTE: I know, but I paid up. I just got a couple oflate payments in there. MR. JOSLIN: I'd like to see some more references. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The problem I've got is if! vote to approve this, I'm creating a new license, because you don't have any qualifications or experience for painting or roof coating. Pressure cleaning is fine, you can do that with a tax license or a tax receipt. Page 51 January 16,2008 But to paint roofs you've got to have the experience, and you don't have it. MR. JOSLIN: Could we restrict the license? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, he says he's going to paint. MR. JOSLIN: Well, no, if we restrict the license, he's not. MR. DUARTE: Basically coating is just spraying a sealer on top of the tiles. As a roofer, you should know. I mean, it's something that I -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, you're talking -- MR. DUARTE: -- did for years and years in New Jersey. Given that the person that I was doing the work for, he was up in years when I -- you know, when I moved to Florida, so I couldn't find the guy. But I did most of his work. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The sealer he's talking about is this-- MR. DUARTE: Waterproofing I did also. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Once someone starts -- she can't type two times. Sealer he's talking about is to prevent the fungus from coming back as quick. Supposedly twice as long, which I don't know if that works or not, but it works longer. So you're not going to paint? MR. DUARTE: Basically just sealing. I mean, I know how to paint, but that's probably something that -- painting, I would probably -- you know, either subcontract it to another person, to another company, or -- but the sealer is something that I know how to do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know how that sealer falls in. It's not paint. MR. DUARTE: It's a clear product. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's a clear sealer. MR. DUARTE: Protects it from all the fungus and the mildew. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you consider that paint, Mr. Ossorio? Page 52 January 16,2008 MR. OSSORIO: Well, if it's a sealer, it could be considered-- what is it, we have a category for sealing striping that he might -- MR. GUITE': It's basically like me sealing grout. MR. OSSORIO: Ifhe had an affidavit that he had somewhat experience in roof cleaning, under the code it allows me to go ahead and restrict it to that aspect of that particular trade that he's qualified in. But unfortunately this particular affidavit, he doesn't show any. So that's the quagmire, that's what we're in. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Since you don't require a license for pressure cleaning, they don't have to have insurance, do they, or no one watches that? MR.OSSORIO: Well, they do have workers compo agents out there. And if he does fall in the category -- if you have three or more employees and you're pressure cleaning, you know, if you're on the roof, that requires workers compo for each individual. So there's workers compo agents, there's two or three in Fort Myers and in Naples. So ifhe's out there working, he's going to definitely have to be exempt or he'll be a statutory employee of the company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There was a college-age kid in Bonita Bay last summer that was pressure cleaning a roof and stepped on his hose and went head first into the concrete patio below. That lawsuit's still going on. That bothers me. MS. KELLER: Would this application be sent to us for credit issues as well? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR. OSSORIO: That's one of the things I asked this gentleman to talk to you about as well. I had some questions concerning his credit, and then more pressing was his affidavits of experience. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Once we get the packet, everything's open. MR. JOSLIN: I have a real question with the amount of dollars and cents that the man still owes. If you care to look at the last page, Page 53 January 16,2008 that's a lot. I'm just wondering how a pressure cleaning business is going to pay this off, if it can be. This is the only business that you're in? MR. DUARTE: Most of those properties are rented, so I do owe a lot of money. But it's just paying off the mortgage, that's being paid off by the tenants. MR. JOSLIN: It says -- on the credit report that I'm looking at says as of November 13th you were past due almost $5,000 on something. You did say you caught that up now? MR. DUARTE: Yes. It just was one of the properties that I had rented, the people there, they were taking showers without the curtain and the water just destroyed the structure of the bathroom and the kitchen. They never called me they had a leak or anything, so I had to get in there over the weekends and do it myself, and just fell behind on the mortgages. And then taxes went up and insurance went sky high, so I just had -- you know, I fell off the horse there. But I'm trying to get back on the horse. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're talking -- I can't tell if it's 16 or 18 repossessions. MR. DUARTE: Sixteen or 18 repossessions? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Look at that trade lines down below. It's either 16 or 18 repossessions. $1.2 million in -- you can look at it if you want. MR. BLUM: You were in the speculation market big time. MR. DUARTE: It was there and it was good. You know, the only problem was that I should have sold it on time and I just -- MR. BLUM: You're not the only one. You're not the only one. MR. DUARTE: It comes hard, especially when you have kids in college and another one ready to go, you know. I just need to get out there and work 16 hours a day like I'm doing now. MR. BLUM: Not that it's really relevant, but in talking to a friend of mine who serves process papers, one company that I know of Page 54 January 16,2008 personally will do 16,000 foreclosure notices in Collier County this year. I can't condemn this man for making a mistake in judgment in the real estate market, because he's got some real good company. MR. JOSLIN: He's not alone for sure. But I don't know, with that said, I can't fathom the idea of giving this man a license to do this type of work with no credentials and with the fact that this amount of money is already been owed. I'm just afraid something else is going to happen, so I'm not in favor of it. MS. KELLER: Who is the license holder for the company now that's operating? MR. DUARTE: The license which we did pay, it expired and we didn't pay for to renew it. And that's how -- it went so long that we lost the license, so -- MR. OSSORIO: In other words, the company got sold and the qualifier left. And it was up to this gentleman to go ahead and show experience. And he just bought a business. And that happens. Plenty of times people just open up a business and they don't know anything about it. And they buy it and the qualifier leaves and they're stuck. MS. KELLER: But he can continue doing part of the business, he just can't do -- MR. OSSORIO: The pressure cleaning, no problem, sure. MR. GUITE': Can he pressure clean a roof? MR. OSSORIO: No, that's roof cleaning. MR. DUARTE: That's basically what I'm here for, for the roof cleaning, which I have the experience to do it, you know. My brother has the experience to do it. He works for the company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Your brother has the experience? MR. DUARTE: I mean, he has experience also. I mean, in the family we all -- there's three of us. That's all we did all our lives. MR. JOSLIN: Could your brother come up with some testimony, statements, affidavits that someone would-- Page 55 January 16,2008 MR. DUARTE: He worked for -- at one time I saw a guy here from Precision, so he did roofs for Precision too, you know. And he did all the high-rises, you know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Get your brother to pull the license. MR. DUARTE: I figured I have the-- MR. NEALE: He said he has experience as well. MR. DUARTE: I have the experience also. Ifhe wants to come and get his, that's up to him. But this is how I made a living for 20 years, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The problem is, and it's not that we don't believe you, but you can't document it. MR. DUARTE: I mean, isn't the experience from Don Hatch, the guy who previously owned the business, he stated that -- I mean, I did roofs for him. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can't you find one more? You have to have two. MR. DUARTE: The issue with that was the only one that could help me was the guy in Boca, but like I say, it was M&M Cleaning Services and -- out of Boca, but he sold the business. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't you know anybody over there that worked for the company? MR. DUARTE: Yeah, I spoke to -- but they said look -- you know, when you send them that form, I faxed him the form, and it has to be notarized and stuff. He said, look, I can't lie to you, I don't know you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's not what I'm asking you. MR. DUARTE: Okay, what's the question? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What I'm asking you is, surely you knew somebody besides that one man who sold the business, if you did it that long. Were there other employers, supervisors, anybody like that? MR. DUARTE: To be honest with you, I didn't proceed-- you Page 56 January 16,2008 know, I didn't go that route. I said okay, forget it, he can't help me, so CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It doesn't say it has to be the owner of a business. Find an individual. You got one, go find another one. Now they're going to call and verify it. Do you agree, Mike? MR. OSSORIO: That we will. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, I mean, he just needs one more? MR. OSSORIO: Well, I'm not very much -- I don't like Mr. Hatch, and I'll deal with Mr. Hatch. I have to look and see what kind of license he has, when this gentleman bought the business and when the business got sold. To make -- you know, it doesn't -- the affidavit on itself doesn't meet the criteria. It just says pressure cleaning, which that is not the category we're going for. So I would have to call Mr. Hatch and talk to him a little bit about it. But we will. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're going to have to find the references. Now, let's do one more-- MS. KELLER: If your brother has better credit, too, you might think about him applying for it. Because this is going to be an obstacle for you even if you go through these other obstacles. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I was going to ask you to address that now. If he finds the proper references, which I just don't think he's looked hard enough, and now you know we're not going to ignore that, okay. Are we going to let him through on his credit? We've done this before. MR. JOSLIN: I don't think that that amount of money that's owed and the houses that he has is going to be detrimental in the pressure cleaning business that he's going to go into. We're not talking thousands and thousands of dollars for something that he's going to do if he does get the references and passes the test and everything happens that he has to have criteria-wise. Page 57 January 16,2008 So I don't think the -- MR. BLUM: I don't see the credit as an issue. The worst thing that could happen is he loses all the houses. So that doesn't affect business. It just means he's not going to have any credit to buy anymore houses. MS. KELLER: I was saying basically the same thing, so-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you guys agree. MR. GUITE': (Nods.) MR. HORN: (Nods.) MR. NEALE: Just to reiterate the Florida Administrative Code, and our ordinance and the Florida Statutes, the whole focus of credit worthiness or ability to pay is focused on -- as Mr. Joslin pointed out, is focused almost solely upon the ability to pay business debts. If he can't pay his personal debts, that's one thing. If he can pay his business debts, that's the question that this board is to address. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So then what we can do here today for him is make a motion to grant him -- I'll make this motion and see if you all agree with this. We'll make a motion to grant you this license based upon you finding the references that contractor licensing staff feels are adequate, that your license be issued. MR. JOSLIN: You've got to search your mind out and find somebody else that can sign these affidavits for you that will back what you say as far as how many years you've been doing this. And there's surely someone out there that you've worked with, if you've been doing this that long, that can help you out in that aspect. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio -- I'm sorry, one second. MR. OSSORIO: Ifhe has the affidavit experience, I'll issue the license. But be warned that if the affidavits are incomplete and he's only showing one part of the license, then I will restrict it for that category. MR. BLUM: Fine. MR. JOSLIN: That's fine. Page 58 January 16, 2008 MR. NEALE: We have a motion. Do we need a second? MR. BLUM: I'll second that motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have a motion and a second. Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you understand it? MR. DUARTE: More or less. I just -- a motion is -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You either make him happy or you don't get a license. Okay? MR. DUARTE: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We got past the credit issue. All right? MR. DUARTE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So we wish you well. MR. DUARTE: Thank you. MR. OSSORIO: Take a break for the court reporter? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, we have a case --let me ask you a question here. Can we get through this case in an hour? MR. OSSORIO: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're not going to break for lunch. MR. ZACHARY: Doesn't look like the respondent is here so it will probably be a little less than an hour. Like two minutes. Page 59 January 16,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's take a 10-minute break. (At which time, Mr. Horn exits the boardroom.) (A break was taken.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to call back into order the meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board. Public hearing, Case No. 2008-01, number one; Paul L. Harmison, d/b/a Bayshores Aluminum Construction, Incorporated. Is Mr. Harmison present? MR. OSSORIO: No, he's in the hospital, I believe. MR. WUHRER: He's not in the hospital, but he's -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Come up, come up. MR. WUHRER: For the record, Andy Wuhrer, Collier County Compliance Officer, contractor license compliance officer. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This is your case, you'll be presenting? MR. WUHRER: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And where is Mr. Harmison? MR. WUHRER: He's recuperating at home. He's had severe back surgery and he is unable to get out and walk and do that type of thing, so he won't be here today. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And then the next question I have to ask you is why are we proceeding with this case, given that information? MR. WUHRER: He's been apprised of the situation that his presence would be appreciated, but he just could not make it here today. He checked in with Mr. Ossorio, and Mr. Ossorio, last I knew at least, said he was not required. MR. OSSORIO: He is required. I talked to Mr. Harmison at many lengths. It's just that the care factor, he is going out of business and he will never able to satisfy this homeowner, to his fault. I'm not going to put words in his mouth. But we need to proceed on a Page 60 January 16,2008 certificate so that he doesn't conduct business in the future. Just because you're the qualifier of the company and you have surgery doesn't mean your company can't do the work. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Yeah, but wait a minute. Mr. Neale was where I was going next. MR. NEALE: If this were the case where Mr. Harmison just blew us off, to use a phrase, I wouldn't have an issue with it. If he is in fact physically unable to be here, was notified that he should be here and can't show, I would have difficulty in recommending that this board proceed, because I would feel that we are -- we're not affording him the due process that he probably is entitled to if we proceed and it is a fact that he is physically unable to be here. MS. KELLER: Do we have proof of that? MR. WUHRER: Yes, I've been there twice and I have seen him, and he's hardly capable of mobility. MR. JOSLIN: So your recommendation would be to-- MR. NEALE: My recommendation would be to continue this matter until such time as he either A, can show up or B, decides that he doesn't feel it's necessary for him to show up. MR. BLUM: Ifhe wants to send us a letter saying I'm not coming, I don't care, okay, fine. MR. NEALE: That's one thing. Ifhe waives his right to appear, that's one thing. MR. ZACHARY: Probably a notarized affidavit that he's not going to appear and not going to contest it would be adequate as well. MR. BLUM: Ifhe lets us know he flat-out doesn't care one way or another, then the heck with him. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Neale, I beg not to differ with you, but I did have long conversations with Mr. Harmison, and he flat-out said he's not going to attend. So do what you may. And if you want me to quote him, I will. He says he's out of business, he's not going to help this Page 61 January 16,2008 homeowner. He has code issues out there. He goes, yep, my business partner took my trucks. I'm not going to show up. I asked him if I could pick him up. I said, I'll drive you over here if need be. He goes no, I don't personally care anymore. So that's why we're here today. If that was the case, we're going to be right back here in February, and I would rather do it here than over in the Board of County Commissioners chambers. This homeowner needs relief. She's waited months. Months. There's code issues; she's going to find a new contractor. She needs to get a finding of fact so she has the ability to go ahead and go after him civilly, if need be, or the county can go after him civilly. But Mr. Harmison is the qualifier of the company. He was duly notified. We hand delivered it to him. He knew about this meeting. I advised him of this meeting. And he just wants to lay on his back and say do it your way, or whatever it is, that's his problem. I do like Mr. Harmison. I think he was an outstanding contractor when he was in business. But I've said right from the beginning, I said it last month, that you're going to see these cases coming. So we're going to wait -- we gave him due process, Mr. Neale. I talked to this gentleman. He doesn't want to show up. He doesn't want to be in business anymore. If that's the case, if he doesn't want to be in business anymore, it's our duty to restrict his license and make sure that he doesn't wake up one day and his son say, you know what, I want to open up a business tomorrow, and dad I want you to qualify my company. Because that does happen. Mr. Harmison is never going to walk anymore -- come in here and do this anymore. MR. NEALE: If! may, what I would propose then is that I would suggest that the board have Mr. Ossorio sworn and have Mr. Zachary ask him an appropriate set of questions to get on the record the fact that this gentleman has in fact waived his right to appear. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I agree, because that -- what Page 62 January 16,2008 you just told me, Michael, is totally different than what I had a picture of. So yeah, we need to do that. If you would, stay right there, Mike, if you want. MR. OSSORIO: I'll stand up. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would swear in Mr. Ossorio. Why don't you do both right now. (Speakers were duly sworn.) MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Ossorio, could you tell us what contact you've had with Mr. Harmison and what his -- what he told you about appearing today before this board? MR.OSSORIO: I've talked to Mr. Harmison on several different occasions. I've talked to Mr. Harmison, my recent encounter with him was yesterday. And I advised him of the meeting and he said he is unable to attend, and he wishes to express sincere apologies to the homeowner that he's just unable to attend and he has no means to attend, and he has -- doesn't want to attend. I advised him that I would pick him up and do what I can, but he has no intention of being in business anymore. MR. ZACHARY: So you afforded him every opportunity, and he had notice of this meeting and you afforded him every opportunity to be here. MR. OSSORIO: We gave him notice. I know Mr. Wuhrer has talked to him several times. We've been to his house several times and we also issued him legal notice of this hearing, of this date. MR. ZACHARY: Did you make him aware that this hearing, if it takes place, may result in his losing his license? MR. OSSORIO: He's very well aware of that. We talked about that at length yesterday. I told him, as a licensing official, that what I was going to recommend, and he says, you know, that's being gracIOUS. MR. ZACHARY: I don't have anything further. I think that demonstrates that the respondent's been given every opportunity to be Page 63 January 16,2008 here and declines to do so and understands that this hearing will take place in his absence. MR. BLUM: Mr. Neale, if! could suggest, and don't mean to tell you, but one little part here bothers me just a tad. I'd like to be convinced that Mr. Harmison made it clear whether he was ill, ambulatory or not, he would have no intention of coming. Because we still haven't heard the part that yeah, if I wasn't feeling bad, I could come. So did he make it clear that no matter what his physical condition he had no intention of coming and we could do what we choose? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Harmison has some medical problems. I believe it started a year ago with his bone density. It's not particularly back surgery but it's something to do with his bones. Cancerous, I have no idea. But he is heavily medicated. He's on 2,200 milligrams of morphine. And I believe he even said if I did attend I probably wouldn't know, you know, how to stand or how to sit. So there's issues there. MR. BLUM: I'm-- MR. OSSORIO: And that's exactly what he said to me. MR. GUITE': I'm not comfortable. MR. BLUM: I'm not at all comfortable with this now, especially not -- MR. NEALE: I would agree with you -- MR. BLUM: I agree with you and I agree with the intent that -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Whoa, whoa, one at a time. MR. NEALE: I concur with you, Mr. Blum, and I think Mr. Zachary does, too. If the man is -- is because of his physical condition on medication such that it makes him incapable to make a reasoned decision I think it would be very difficult to say that we are affording him due process. Mr. Zachary, you want to -- Page 64 January 16, 2008 MR. ZACHARY: I concur. MR. JOSLIN: I would think we should go back to the letter that you indicated in the beginning. If he comes in with a signed and sealed notarized letter stating that he could care less at this moment. However, he still maybe under duress of what he's going through right now, still may be the same situation. He may sign anything because he doesn't know what he's signing. MR. NEALE: At least at that point, and I suggest that potentially he be afforded the opportunity to have counsel when he does sign off on that letter. And potentially Mr. Zachary go with county staff when they go visit with him and make sure that all the procedures are followed appropriately. MR. BLUM: I would suggest that our counsel have to do with an exhibit document to take with you that we would find acceptable. MR. NEALE: Mr. Zachary and I will work together. MR. BLUM: To wit, even though if! were not incapacitated I have no intention of answering this claim. That's the words I want to hear. MS. KELLER: Do we need to hear from the homeowner at all about her -- any interactions she's had or knowledge she might have about the situation? MR. NEALE: I think since her testimony would be valuable in the case itself, and I think what I'm recommending, that the case not be opened today, that, you know, and with all apologies to her for showing up today, I think it would not be appropriate for the board to hear any testimony at this point until such time is the case is officially heard. MS. KELLER: We don't have a note from a doctor, we just have things that he has told the board. So I'm not -- it's horrible for me to say that, because, poor man, but I wanted to make sure that she didn't have information about his situation that we didn't know about. MR. NEALE: No, I don't know about that, but I think if she was Page 65 January 16,2008 to testify solely for the limited purposes of determining whether he is in fact incapacitated, that's one thing. If she was to testify to any other element of the case, I'd have trouble with her doing so. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What is the homeowner's name? MR. WUHRER: It's Mrs. Carol McBride. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ms. McBride -- that's Mrs. McBride back there? MRS. McBRIDE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to speak to you, but I apologize. And understand this, the first gentleman here is with the county attorney's office. He represents the Collier County Commissioners and the County of Collier County to keep them out of trouble. Mr. Neale is an attorney on Marco Island who only represents this board. He's contracted to represent this board to keep us out of trouble. MRS. McBRIDE: May I say something? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, ma'am. Come forward. THE COURT REPORTER: Do you want me to swear her in? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, wait. If it's not about the case. I can't get into the case. (Speaker was duly sworn.) MRS. McBRIDE: Nothing about the case. But the fact that Mr. Harmison would never return my calls -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's the case. That's part of the case. MRS. McBRIDE: I just wanted to state that. And he was not sick then. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's all part of the case. MR. JOSLIN: You can rest assured that we would like nothing more than to try to resolve this for you, but at this moment we have to follow to procedure. That's basically what it comes down to. Page 66 January 16,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I agree with the county and the legalese here. As soon as we heard that he's heavily medicated, that ended it. MRS. McBRIDE: When will I know something then? When will this be resolved? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: As soon as Michael gets together with the county attorney here and we get some form that makes sure that we're clear. Because with the testimony we had here today, anything we could have done would have been reversed. And we don't want that to happen, neither do you. MR. OSSORIO: Mrs. McBride, how does the third Wednesday of February sound? Are you going to be in town or do you want to wait until March? MRS. McBRIDE: No, I don't want to wait. That sounds fine. MR. OSSORIO: Okay. I'm pretty confident that we're going to have this discussion the third Wednesday of February. MRS. McBRIDE: Could we have it early in the session? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I was going to suggest that. Let her go first. She waited this whole session. I don't have to follow this schedule. You're number one. MRS. McBRIDE: All right, I'll see you then. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I apologize again. Thank you ma'am. Okay, we are not going to hear that today, so Andy, thank you for your time, but we're sure going to probably hear it next month. Next item -- and she will be number one on the agenda. They'll get -- all those people wanting second entities and everything will get to see a case. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, just housekeeping. The contractor licensing forms, I'm going to go ahead and withdraw that, wait till next month. I want to talk to Mr. Zachary in a couple of days. So I really want to get more clarification before we discuss it. But we do have a public speaker here, though, today. Page 67 January 16,2008 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have what? MR. OSSORIO: We do have one public speaker. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: It's Lisa Koehler, she's here in the audience. I think she wants to say a couple of words to you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning, or afternoon now. MS. KOEHLER: Yes, good afternoon. I didn't have to do this under public speaking, but -- MR. OSSORIO: I think you should. MS. KOEHLER: I think I should. I wanted to come today and say good-bye. I have left community development and taken a new position in the transportation division. So I'm still with the county, but I'm not the PIO anymore. But it has been a pleasure working with you. I have completely enjoyed this. And I think I've told you on many occasion, it's the best board I've ever worked with in my career, not just at Collier County, but in all of my past positions for government. And it has truly been a pleasure working with you all. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, you're the one and only who we've ever seen. Gosh, it's been a joy to work with you. You come to the meetings, you sit through all this. You report, we get stuff in the news media to people. I'm devastated that you're leaving. MS. KOEHLER: And because of the current situation with staffing levels, they're not going to be filling my position at this time. There's a few people that are trying to take over some of the duties. And so I'm sure if you guys have a big case and we need to get information out, there will be avenues still available to you. You'll just have to work with Mike, and Mike will have to -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What are you doing at the transportation department? MS. KOEHLER: I'm now a principal. I'm working on a bridge Page 68 January 16, 2008 study, impact fees, GMP amendments, Land Development Code amendments, new ordinances, corridor management. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wow. MR. BLUM: We'll be seeing you at the productivity committee, I'm sure. MS. KOEHLER: I'll be at the planning commission on Thursday. Yes, just thrown right in. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I know I speak for everybody here, you will definitely be missed. MS. KOEHLER: Thank you very much. It has been a pleasure. I didn't just want to disappear. I started transportation, now this is like my tenth or 11th day. But I wanted to come back and say good bye. I didn't just want to disappear, so it's been a pleasure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I wish you well. MS. KOEHLER: Thank you very much. MR. BLUM: Norm Feder is a good boss. You'll enjoy being over there. They're good people over there, great people. MS. KOEHLER: It is. Of course, it's always hard leaving. I've worked with Joe Schmitt for five years, and that's been a pleasure and an honor. But I heard great things about Norm, too, so it's a win-win. MR. BLUM: It's a well run ship over there. MS. KOEHLER: Yes, it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thanks, Lisa. MR. BARTOE: Lisa, would you like us to subpoena you to come to one of these meetings once in a while? MS. KOEHLER: It'd be nice. MR. JOSLIN: I'll make that motion for sure. MS. KOEHLER: Be an expert witness for you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One more housekeeping item. Resignation of one of our members; William Louis. He did send this note on January 7th. It is with sincere regret that I tender my notice of resignation Page 69 January 16,2008 from the board. His current situation, he is out of town regularly. He's working up in Georgia, I believe it's Georgia, isn't it, and unable to commit to attending the board's meetings. I therefore feel compelled to vacate the appointment granted me in favor of a new appointee. Bill was the general contractor representative on the board. So we need another general contractor. And it's important that we find a general contractor. We need that position filled. I wish to express my gratitude to all the members of the board, both past and present, who serve on the community without reward -- he jus didn't get his paycheck -- and complete their responsibility with professionalism and commitment. So we wish Bill well. He was on this board how many years, six, wasn't it? Five or six? So he shall be missed. MR. GUITE': I didn't get my paycheck either. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, you haven't? Maybe I'm getting all your checks. MR. BLUM: Get at the end of a very long line. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I believe it's going to be advertised sometime this week. And we did put our e-mail to Brenda Talbert, she's the executive director for the CBIA. And she's put it to her members. I think we're going to get a strong candidate for the licensing board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's why if you know a general contractor that's really strong, go after him. That's an important position on this board. We need 'em. Anything else? MR. BLUM: Yes. I'd like to propose -- to me one ofthe things lacking, and we all come on this board with stars in our eyes and high hopes of community participation of doing the right thing to help -- for consumers and ourselves. But one thing I think is seriously lacking is any kind of -- I don't want to use direction, but I think there should be Page 70 January 16,2008 a general meeting regularly held, maybe it's once or twice or three times a year of the board to discuss procedure, ways of doing things, how things are done. I'd like to see a meeting of this board either preceding or superseding a regular meeting, where we can have a general discussion amongst ourselves. And I'd like to propose it to be following the next regularly scheduled meeting. It would have to be noticed because of our Sunshine restrictions. But I'd like all of us as a board to get together and hash out a few issues amongst ourselves. MS. KELLER: Are you putting us in counseling? MR. BLUM: No. MR. NEALE: Well, one of the things included in the ordinance, in the contractor licensing ordinance is a provision whereby the board is empowered to adopt its own policies and procedures for operation. And so that would be an appropriate time for the board to propose those and to vote upon those. The other thing that I think, Mr. Blum, you might want to consider and the board may want to consider is a -- some sort of an orientation for new board members. MR. BLUM: Absolutely. MR. NEALE: Because I can imagine, you know, those of us who have been here a long time, we talk in shorthand, 489 and, you know, 1.6.7 and blah, blah, blah. We start blathering along very quickly. And I can imagine for a new member who-- MR. BLUM: It's intimidating. MR. NEALE: -- it could be very intimidating. So potentially have some sort of a brief orientation when new members come on board, either one-on-one or whatever. MR. BLUM: That's one of the things I wanted to bring up in discussion is potentially having an orientation meeting, whether it's the Chairman getting together with that particular person, which would not have to be sun-shined, or however we're going to do that. Page 71 January 16,2008 Orientation, information, procedures, all those things, I think us as a sitting board now need to discuss that and come up with things to do and a gentle airing out of our positions. It does have to be noticed, so it would be a regularly noticed meeting, and we can put it on the agenda that following the normal proceedings there will be a meeting of the board. Anybody choosing to sit in and just listen is welcome to do so, and we can go ahead. So I don't know if anybody else agrees with that, but that's what I'd like to see happen. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Non-recorded? MR. NEALE: It would be a workshop sort of thing. MR. BLUM: If you wanted to do it like we have -- I can only speak for productivity, for example, we do that type of thing. But we do have -- and staff will provide a tape recorder. If you tape these things, then if somebody asks later, at least you can say this is what's said and this wasn't said. So my recommendation is that we do tape it and the tape be made available, and maybe we can have somebody transcribe it if the need arises. But that would be something I would suggest that we do from prior experience on advisory boards. MR. NEALE: Are we going to be at the commission chambers next time? So it would be easy to tape it then. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: My only question with that, besides orientation of maybe a new member, which could be done over lunch, I don't see a need for it. MR. BLUM: Well, if I'm the only person that does, then it won't happen. MR. JOSLIN: I tend to disagree with you, Les, only because of the situation that happened today. I'm not really -- I mean, I'm not really upset with either one of the board members or with staff, but I do think that this one case that came before us today was a little unnecessary and bizarre. And luckily we weren't on TV, because I'm Page 72 January 16, 2008 afraid it would have came back to haunt us. I don't think that after I've been on this board for nine years that I like to see cases or tickets, violations, or other things happen here come before us and then only to be discussed and kicked around and then all of a sudden dropped and it's out the window and we don't talk about it or we don't act on it. I think that's our position. I think that's our job to do. And these gentlemen, they're out here doing their work and doing their jobs, investigating all these things and bringing these cases before us. They wouldn't bring them before us if there wasn't a need for it or if they didn't really commit the violations. So how stiff we are on them or what penalties they get is what the board decides when it actually comes before us. So these are things probably to be ironed a far as at what point do we say I'm going to cancel the ticket or we'll drop it here. It should be done before it gets here. That way we don't have to hear that. It doesn't have to come before -- MS. KELLER: I felt like the vote was going in one direction and all of a sudden it went like that, and all of us were still going in that direction and were like, wait a minute. MR. JOSLIN: Although, this particular case today, I think we all had feelings for the man, you know, that was before us. MR. BLUM: I don't want to beat to death what we already did today. That was the reason why I brought it up the way I brought it up. I don't need Mr. Ossorio to defend himself. I don't need any of us to cast aspersions at anybody. But I would really like to see us as a board meet and let anybody and everybody on the board bring up whatever they think is relevant. And to beat up what transpired I think is really not necessary at this point. MR. GUITE': I agree with you. And I think that it would give us a time when we can talk things over so we don't get an issue like Page 73 January 16,2008 which kind of leaf blowers are allowed. Because-- MR. BLUM: I think all of us should submit a list of topics possibly, if we get an agenda put together, and give it to -- we must have somebody who's liaising for us at this point, be it Mike Sheffield or whoever at the county. And we all may have different ideas of what topics we would like to discuss. So they could be submitted. If everybody wants to send me individual topics and then I will present that liaison with all of them, that's something we can legally do as well. Or get them to Mr. Dickson as chairman and he can submit them. MR. OSSORIO: Just a quick question, Mr. Joslin, you made a point that staff brought this citation forward. Staff did not bring the citation forward. This was the complainant or the violator bringing it. And you're absolutely right. If the violator did come to my office and we did sit down and discuss it and we went through the section of the code and we did go point by point by point, we probably wouldn't be here today. Unfortunately this gentleman did not come down to the office within the ten day prescribed period and discuss it, he decided to discuss it in front of the licensing board, which is his purview. And it is my purview to go ahead and dismiss it. And I did not bring this action to you, this was the gentleman bringing it to you. And maybe we will have -- the workshop will clarify what staff does and how we conduct our business and how we conduct the investigation out in the field and how we go ahead and provide, get the information from violators or complaints or show proof of payment to be considered a statutory contractor. Just because I'm cutting a tree doesn't mean I'm a tree contractor. MR. BLUM: Michael, I wasn't asking or looking for you, and that really isn't what this is about at all. I have no problem with any of the things you're saying. I'm talking about us as a Board of County Commissioners, that's Page 74 January 16,2008 what I'm talking about, and what we do and how we do it. MS. KELLER: I was also commenting earlier about how because the economy is the way it is, we're going to have a lot more cases coming in front of us that have credit issues on their applications, and there's some things that we probably should discuss beforehand, so we don't end up doing it here, that we come up with some ideas of how we're going to look at things. Are we going to change how we're looking at things, are we going react to that, are we going to ignore it, are we going to do business as usual. So there are a lot of things -- MR. BLUM: Some potential outlines -- MR. NEALE: As counsel to the board, I wouldn't mind having the opportunity to go over some of the things like -- even though the board does them on a regular basis, what the tests are for financial responsibility. What the qualifications are for certain things. What the procedures are for a hearing. How they go forward. Even though they're done all the time and the chair does a great job at handling them, if the chair's absent or the vice chair's absent, we want to make sure that everybody is aware of how those things go and why they're done the way they're done. Because I think in your role as the face of the board, when somebody in the public asks you, well, why do you do that, at least you have the ability to say well, we do that because. So I would be happy to have the opportunity to present to the board just sort of the nuts and bolts. Even though everybody here knows them pretty well, you know, a review is never really a bad thing. MR. BLUM: That would certainly be a welcome addition to what I'm talking about. MR. JOSLIN: I have a lot of respect for this board. Just to let everyone know. After this many years, I still have a lot of respect for staff, how they bring us the cases, for how the attorneys handle how we do these meetings every month. How Les handles the chair to Page 75 January 16,2008 keep it moving, and everything goes in order like it's supposed to. So this is nothing to be derogatory towards Michael or staff or anybody else or in agreement with Mr. Blum, it's just something I think that we probably do need to do, just to clear and air out all the feelings and then air out how we're going to proceed here. It's a new year so might as well get a new start. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's fine with me. MR. GUITE': With the economy the way it is, we're probably going to hear a lot more cases, all different types, not just financial. MR. NEALE: Just based on the kind of -- MS. KOEHLER: We need to have some standards and ideas about how we're going to uniformly deal with it -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're driving her crazy. She's about to get a headache. MR. NEALE: Based upon the clients that I'm seeing come in my door now and the kinds of calls I'm getting, and just the sense that I'm getting from talking to contractors and such, the kind of case, Mr. Harmison's kind of case, and the bad credit reports and the multiple foreclosures and stuff, that is not going to be the exception for the next year or so, that's going to be the rule. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The other thing you might want to-- MR. NEALE: -- Mr. Ossorio can comment on that because he knows what's in the pipeline better than any of us. But I would say that he could probably support what we're saying. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I agree we do it next month, because one of the issues I want to bring up is the last two meetings we've had under discussion some weird things that took up a lot of time. And we need to put an end to that. We had it last month with people that just want to argue for the sake of arguing. They don't have a leg to stand on but it's all under the premise that anyone has a right to come before this board. I don't know if I agree with that. I would want to see that in writing, because Page 76 January 16, 2008 not everyone has the right to take up the time of this board. MR. NEALE: What the board has the ability to do, and that goes back to setting its own procedures, is what City Council of Naples, City Council of Marco Island, County Commission has all done, and that is set a time limit for public speakers other than those presenting a case. And certainly that is something the board could adopt by resolution as a procedure, that if someone does come up as a public speaker, they're limited to five minutes. And that certainly is something the board could do by procedure. MR. BLUM: Along with that, people in general, when they get up at that podium, they state their case, they're full of themselves and their own righteousness, which we all do, but they also think that they have a right to expect an answer. And I don't think because someone poses a position, and I don't want to get into specifics, that we, the chairman or any of us, should feel obligated to respond. So I think it needs, as part of that premise, it needs to be stated in words to that effect, you -- anybody wants to state a petition, that's fine. Please understand, you'll state your position, you'll have X amount of time, thank you and good-bye. We're not necessarily going to respond. Because that's not what we're here for is to respond. I've caught myself short many times feeling I got to say something to defend it. Well, we don't. Just because you ask a question doesn't mean you're going to get an answer. And that's not what we're here for is to answer general questions. They can put them in writing to staff. So I think that's one ofthe things I wanted to bring up, is not necessarily we have to respond to general statements. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, we'll do that next month. Won't be -- we will not have the recorder. We get our room back next month. If you all note that. And we are going back to the regular time, I assume, 9:00? Good. Page 77 January 16,2008 MR. BLUM: I'd like to make sure that staff, whosever here listening, we do have the facility to get it recorded, though, by some mechanical means. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's easy. MR. OSSORIO: I'll talk to Sue Filson after the board meeting, if we do have the room. If it's not going to be occupied by another board, is that we'll have -- you won't be on the board itself but you'll be in a round table discussion, so we'll sit across from each other -- MR. BLUM: The county manager's room there right around the comer, is ideal. At least 25 people can fit in there with no problem, 13, l4 around the table. MR. BARTOE: At the beginning of every year we reserve that room for the entire day. Of course it gets changed on us periodically. Here we are today. MR. OSSORIO: There's no guarantee that we could get booted for next month. Fortunately our board meets on Wednesday, the BOC meets on Tuesday, and if the agenda is heavy on Tuesday it overflows on Wednesday, and here we are in the same position. MR. BLUM: We can still do it. Is there a general consensus that we're going to do this and put it on the agenda that following our normal meeting, at our next regularly scheduled meeting we will get together as a workshop roundtable discussion amongst ourselves? MR. JOSLIN : Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I thought we made that clear. MR. BLUM: I haven't heard from Mr. Herriman yet. MR. HERRIMAN: You're going to have sandwiches delivered, right? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I thought I made it clear. MR. JOSLIN: Are you bringing sandwiches? MR. BLUM: Sure, absolutely. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There will be some common sense Page 78 January 16,2008 invoked ifhe brings five cases at us and we're there at 5:30 at night, no, it's not going to happen. Any other -- MR. OSSORIO: It very well might happen. Because we're very busy and we have a lot of cases. MS. KELLER: Should the cases come before the new business? I was thinking that, that these homeowners that have just dragged through the coals are sitting there forever for these people that want to open another company. And I always feel bad for them sitting there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But those should go faster and they should go faster than what they've been going. MS. KELLER: I just really feel for the people that are sitting out there for a couple of hours waiting to hear-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's why I sit up here and drive things and push things. And when attorneys tell me we should do something for this way, I don't expect a lay board to argue with them, which is one of my gripes on this board. When those two people say this is the way it's going to be, that ends it, because they're the ones that keep us out of the courtroom and they're hired by the County Commissioners. So that's kind of the word of law over there. And I follow exactly what they say. You've never heard me argue with them, nor will 1. Next meeting, 9:00, is that right? MR. OSSORIO: (Nods.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussion? I have a motion to adjourn? MR. JOSLIN: So moved. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second. ****** Page 79 January 16, 2008 There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 12:55 p.m. COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON, Chairman These minutes approved by the Board on presented or as corrected , as TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. BY CHERIE' NOTTINGHAM Page 80