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HEX Minutes 01/23/2025January 23, 2025 Page 1 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY HEARING EXAMINER Naples, Florida, January 23, 2025 LET IT BE REMEMBERED that the Collier County Hearing Examiner, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 1:00 p.m., in REGULAR SESSION at 2800 North Horseshoe Drive, Room 609/610, Naples, Florida, with the following people present: HEARING EXAMINER ANDREW DICKMAN ALSO PRESENT: Michael Bosi, Planning and Zoning Director Raymond V. Bellows, Zoning Manager Sean Sammon, Planner III Kevin Summers, Manager - Technical Systems Operations Ashley Eoff, Administrative Support January 23, 2025 Page 2 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Good afternoon, everyone. Today is January 23rd, 2025. This is the Collier County Hearing Examiner meeting. Let's all rise for the Pledge of Allegiance. (The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.) HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Thank you, everyone. I hope everyone's staying warm out there. It's a messy day, rainy and cold. Not like Florida at all. Today we have two items on the agenda, correct? Nothing's being continued. Okay. Good. My name is Andrew Dickman. I'm a board -- I'm a -- I'm a Florida Bar attorney practicing in land use for over 20 years. The Board of County Commissioners has retained me to fulfill the duties of the Hearing Examiner and the code. I am not a county employee. My sole job here is to conduct these quasi-judicial hearings for the petitions that are under the jurisdiction of the Hearing Examiner, conduct these, and render a decision. I will not be rendering decisions here at the meeting today. I have 30 days to render a written decision, and my office will circulate those once they're done. Today -- the purpose of today is actually to hear evidence and testimony from the applicant, from the county, and from the public. So the county has set up a hybrid process where there might be folks that are attending or participating via Zoom and then also you're here in person. The process that I like to follow is just have -- first have the county planner assigned to the file to introduce the item for me, any recommendations, any conditions, things like that, then the applicant or the applicant's representative will use this other podium over here, and then they will be allowed to reserve some time for rebuttal if necessary, then we'll open it up for public comment, and we'll go through that. And then, again, allow for rebuttal, and then we'll January 23, 2025 Page 3 close it. I may have some questions; I may not. We have a court reporter here, so it's very important that -- speak clearly into the microphone, make sure that we capture everything. Sometimes I do use these transcripts to go back and -- when I'm preparing the written orders, to look at them. She'll obviously stop me. She has stopped me in the past before if I start talking too fast or mumbling or I just start answering questions with my hands or yes or no. That can't be captured by a court reporter, so try to be clear. But first and most importantly, please just relax. This is an informal process. I'm going to take as long as I need to to hear from everybody, and I want you all just to focus -- try to do your best. You can say whatever you want, but I'd prefer that you focus on the criteria that I have to use to apply when evaluating the application. So that will be very -- the most helpful thing to me. As far as disclosures, the only thing -- I have not had any conversations outside of this room with any of the applicants, with anyone at the county, with anyone. I'm here as a neutral party. The only thing that I have done is I have done site visits to the -- I always try to now go by the property just to see it and have a better sense of it, so I have done that, and I'm disclosing that for both items here today. So with that, anyone who is going to testify here today must do so under oath, so why don't we go ahead and do that. So on both items, anyone who's going to speak here today, please stand and raise your right hand, and I'll ask the clerk [sic] to administer the oath. THE COURT REPORTER: Do you swear or affirm the testimony you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? (The speakers were duly sworn and indicated in the affirmative.) HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Thanks for January 23, 2025 Page 4 that, everyone. I don't think I have anything else to cover. No? Okay, good. Why don't we get started with the first one, first item, 3A. MR. BELLOWS: Turn off your cell phones. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Turn off your cell phones, including -- please, or beepers, if you have them anymore. All right. MR. SAMMON: Good afternoon, Mr. Dickman. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Hey, Sean. MR. SAMMON: For the record, Sean Sammon, Planner III, standing in for Maria Estrada, zoning reviewer for this petition, in the Zoning division. Before you is Agenda Item 3A, which is a variance request, Project No. PL20240010641. This request seeks a variance from Section 3.5 of the Wentworth Estates Planned Unit Development, Ordinance 03-51, as amended, to reduce the required side setback from six feet to zero feet on the south property line for a proposed accessory screen enclosure located at 9457 Rialto Drive, also known as Lot 1 of the Ponte Rialto subdivision in Section 30, Township 50 South, Range 26 East, Collier County, Florida. Staff has reviewed this petition according to the criteria established in the Wentworth PUD, Ordinance 03-51, Section 3.5. Staff believes this petition is consistent with both the review criteria outlined in the LDC, as well as with the GMP. Regarding public notice requirements, they were met as per LDC Section 10.03.06.F. The applicant distributed the agent letter on Wednesday, December 18th, 2024. The property owner notification letter and newspaper ad were taken care of by staff on Friday, January 3rd, 2025, and public hearing signs were posted by county staff on Monday, January 6th, 2025. January 23, 2025 Page 5 County staff received one inquiry for information related to this petition. Therefore, staff recommends that you approve a variance request from Section 3.5 of the Wentworth Estates PUD, Ordinance 03-51, as amended, to reduce the required side setback from six feet to zero feet on the south property line for the proposed accessory screen enclosure as detailed in Attachment B of the staff report. That concludes staff's summary. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you, Sean. Appreciate it. Is the applicant or applicant's representative here? MR. SHAW: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Come on up. And you can use this large podium to spread out all your materials, make yourself at home. MR. SHAW: Sure. How are you? HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Fine. MR. SHAW: My name's Randy Shaw and, really simply, we have a single-family home in Treviso Bay. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And this is your property here? MR. SHAW: Yes, it is. Right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It's 9457 Rialto Drive, correct? MR. SHAW: Yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. I just wanted to get that on the record. MR. SHAW: And even though, I guess, technically in your paperwork it's not an end house, for me it is an end house. And so all we want to do is just extend -- asking to extend the lanai six feet to the south, which there would be no residence there. January 23, 2025 Page 6 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yep. MR. SHAW: All the residents that are within 150 feet of the home have been notified. Sean's actually been out to our place, and the sign was put out in front. So we started the process in May. It's been long and arduous, and I'm excited to be here today. But I think we've met all the criteria. And, you know, simply put, so why are we doing this? So these homes, they're a little bit cookie cutter, but the lanai and the cage is very, very small in these homes that were built in 2016 -- or 2015, sorry. And so by extending the lanai, it's going to -- it's going to provide us more safety. And I do have a brother-in-law that comes down. He is in a wheelchair, and that extra space around there would allow him to be more mobile in that part of the enclosure. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. SHAW: We have our contractors all set up. They -- they're professionals. They -- they've been doing work in the community. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Are you going to have to remove your whole cage and put in a new lanai. MR. SHAW: The whole cage will be removed. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. The entire -- okay. MR. SHAW: New footings, new drainage, new everything. It's all set up. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. And I recognize you're on a corner lot. MR. SHAW: Yes, yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So this is actually on the south side, which is, like -- your lanai goes directly in line with the January 23, 2025 Page 7 back of your house, but you want to go a little bit further south towards the road? MR. SHAW: To the left as you're facing back, yeah, right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Right. MR. SHAW: Right. And that top picture is actually that area. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. You have a presentation you want to go through? MR. SHAW: This is it. Maria helped me put this together. It's three pictures. It's really -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. SHAW: It really -- it's showing the lanai, but the top one probably captures it the most. That's the inside looking out. Where -- that edge of the mulch, that would be probably the six feet that would go out. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Got it. And there's a berm. I saw a berm there. MR. SHAW: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So you've got landscaping and a berm in between the road and your property -- MR. SHAW: Yes, sir. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- correct? So just tell me, what is the reason for doing this, like, going further out that way? Is that just for more -- to get around the pool? MR. SHAW: Sure, sure. It would be to around the pool. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Walkway. MR. SHAW: If you see -- if you look at the second slide, the middle one, you actually see there's two lounge -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Got it. MR. SHAW: -- chaise lounges there. And that's -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: This is the south side, right? January 23, 2025 Page 8 MR. SHAW: -- all you can fit there. Yes, sir. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. I got you. All right. MR. SHAW: Yeah. And like I say, there are probably three or four homes on our block that have extended their lanais because of the, you know, small nature of the -- you know, when they installed them in the homes originally. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. SHAW: There's 14 homes on our block, and I think four of them have extended theirs. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Got it. Okay. All right. I think I understand this one pretty well. Let's see if there's any public speakers. Anybody signed up to speak here? MR. SUMMERS: No, sir. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Nobody here to speak. Okay, great. Well, yeah, that was my only question was, like, the purpose of it. And I guess what you're saying is that the size of the pool and the cage, it's cramped. MR. SHAW: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It's cramped for furniture, cramped for moving around. MR. SHAW: Yes, sir. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Is that essentially what you're saying? MR. SHAW: Yeah, yeah, and that section, it posed a safety concern. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. You're not going any further back. You're just going to the side. January 23, 2025 Page 9 MR. SHAW: No further back. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So it's going 6 feet, more or less, 6.1 feet to the south, and that's going right to your property line, correct? MR. SHAW: Right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Okay. MR. SHAW: And the HOA is involved. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yes. That was my other question. I just wanted to make sure you -- I mean, clearly, that's a deed-restricted community. MR. SHAW: Sure. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And I imagine you -- they have some procedures you have to go through. The county's not going to get involved in that. I'm not going to get involved in that, but I just want -- I'd hate for them to come back and say, "Well, nobody ever came to us and said" -- MR. SHAW: Yeah, I would hate for that, too, after all this time, right? So they said, believe it or not, before they can approve it they need your approval. So I'm, like, "Fair enough." HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. SHAW: So I'm like, "You better approve it, then." HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Well, that's fair. So you have another process to go through, but that, obviously, maintains your beautiful neighborhood. They were nice enough to let me in there. MR. SHAW: Right, right, right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It was -- okay. I don't have any other questions for you. Does staff have anything else? I did notice the sign was up. Thank you very much for keeping that up, and that gives extra notice to the community about what's going on. January 23, 2025 Page 10 MR. SHAW: Sure. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I don't have any other questions. It's pretty straightforward. And I will -- like I said, I'm not making a decision today, but I've got your testimony, and we've got this in the record and the staff report and the staff's testimony. They're supporting it. So I will get a decision out as quickly as I can, and then you can go have fun with your HOA. MR. SHAW: Very good. Andrew, thank you very much. Thanks, Sean. Thanks. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. I hope staff was pleasant to you. I know it is a bit of a process, but that's the way it works. MR. SHAW: That's the way it works. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: They try -- they do the best they can. MR. SHAW: That's right. Thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Great. So we're going to go to 3B now. Shawn, are you getting taller? MR. SAMMON: Yeah, you know. The colder it gets outside, the taller I get. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I'm sure. Definitely. MR. SAMMON: Good afternoon, Mr. Dickman. For the record, Sean Sammon, Planner III in the Zoning division. Before you is Agenda Item 3B. This is a request for insubstantial change to Ordinance No. 2018-49, as amended, for the Seed to Table Commercial Planned Unit Development to remove the requirement for a gate at the southern parking lot entrance off Piper Boulevard. The subject CPUD consists of approximately 17.09 acres and is located on the west side of Livingston Road approximately 200 feet January 23, 2025 Page 11 north of the intersection of Livingston Road and Immokalee Road in Section 24, Township 48 South, Range 25 East, Collier County, Florida. The petition was reviewed by staff based upon review criteria contained within LDC Section 10.02.13.E.1, A through K, and 10.02.13.E.2.A, and staff believes this petition is consistent with the review criteria in the LDC as well as with the GMP. The applicant conducted one neighborhood information meeting on Tuesday, November 19th, 2024. Ten members of the public attended in person, and details from this meeting are included in the backup package, Attachment A to the staff report. With respect to the public notice requirements, they were complied with as per LDC Section 10.03.06.H. The property owner notification letter and newspaper ad were taken care of by the county on Friday, January 3rd, 2025, and the public hearing signs were placed by the applicant on Tuesday, January 7th, 2025. I've received multiple calls and e-mails from two members of the public who have shared their concern in opposition with the petition request. Therefore, staff recommends that you approve this petition subject to including Attachments G and H, the PUD revised text and master plan, respectively, in the HEX decision. That concludes staff's summary. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So let me just ask you a quick question. Because, I mean, I know this is for the Seed to Table CPUD, and that's across the very large street, which is -- it's very busy in there. I did go out. There's at least, on this -- the employee parking area, at least 100 cars in there this morning. So I assume they all work across the street, but -- and then I also already notice the gate is down. There is no gate there. MR. SAMMON: Correct. January 23, 2025 Page 12 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It's already removed. It's already been removed. So I guess this is a little bit of an after-the-fact request. MR. SAMMON: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Did you know it was down? MR. SAMMON: Yeah. I went out myself over the weekend, drove, and it's been down. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yep. MR. SAMMON: The applicant had mentioned that it's been down for some time now. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Quite some time. MR. SAMMON: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. And so why is this coming, though? Like, is it the county wants better access to the utility area; is that what it is? MR. SAMMON: It's between the utility area as well as CAT bus, and the property's owned by the county. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. And this is for the benefit of the county? MR. SAMMON: The county -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: That's why the county's initiating this? MR. SAMMON: Correct, correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. It's not Seed to Table that's initiating this? MR. SAMMON: No. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. That's what I wanted to be clear about. Okay. All right. Thank you very much. MR. SAMMON: Thank you. January 23, 2025 Page 13 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Let's go to the applicant. How are you, sir? MR. LASCANO: Good. How you doing? Chris Lascano with Phoenix Associates. So Phoenix Associates, we were contracted by Seed to Table to construct the parking lot, along with the CAT bus. We work with Collier County. We created the PUD. Part of it was a gate, which was originally criteria from the neighborhood. Over time, though, that gate kept getting taken down. FPL trucks were not able to access the site, so they would just remove it. Then there was issues with the CAT bus not -- it wasn't operating. They took it down. Then I've been told -- I don't know, but members of the local community also were taking it down. So after a while, we just stopped fixing it because it became a problem for us, because everything we did didn't work. Then Collier County came to us and asked us to submit a PUD -- that's an insubstantial change -- because the CAT bus no longer wanted the gate there, and that's what we've done. Obviously, the community does not want that, so we tried -- the best we can do that we've come up with is to -- because it is a private property. It is not meant to be used as a cut-through. So we're going to add signage. We're also going to install three speed bumps. We've talked with our transportation guy. He said cut-through, the only thing you can really do is speed bumps to deter it. They're going to be longer speed bumps, that way the CAT buses don't get damaged over time. And then we're also going to request that Collier County Sheriff's Department monitor the cut-through, you know, cite people that are using it as a cut-through. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So -- okay. There's a -- there are a lot of cars in there. So are the employees using -- MR. LASCANO: No. January 23, 2025 Page 14 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- that cut-through to go through the neighborhood or -- MR. LASCANO: They might, but technically they've been told that they have to use the -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: U-turn. MR. LASCANO: -- Livingston as ingress and egress, correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. So you've got to do a U-turn on Livingston and come back to it. MR. LASCANO: Yeah. Piper is just mainly for FP&L and CAT bus, not for the employees. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Okay. All right. Let's go to the -- did you have a presentation you wanted to make, or that was pretty much it? MR. LASCANO: No. We're good, I think. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. Let's go to the public. Any members here? There are people here, obviously. MR. SUMMERS: Yeah. So we have three public -- registered speakers. We'll start with Kathy Messina. MS. MESSINA: Can you start with Michelle, since she's got facts and figures? I just happened to get here first. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. Call Michelle up. So why don't you just have a seat. I'll give you time for rebuttal. But let's take notes and see -- Ma'am, why don't you use this podium right here so that you can -- and let's get through this slowly. So we're going to need your name and address, and I kind of -- for me, I like to know sort of where you are in proximity to this -- MS. BAMMEL: Certainly. January 23, 2025 Page 15 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- where your property is in proximity to this situation. So go ahead. MS. BAMMEL: Michelle Bammel. I've been a homeowner in Willoughby Acres since 2018, and I'm one of the individuals who has to go through the primary exit between -- or Lakeland Avenue and Piper Boulevard to actually get out of the neighborhood at the light, and that's the first intersection that is actually impacted by the traffic that comes out of Seed to Table parking lot or goes to the parking lot. And I've almost been hit three times by vehicles -- by passing traffic trying to get through that intersection to go or from the parking lot. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. BAMMEL: So I have a very strong concern about the safety and safety issues that are being introduced by the traffic not being restricted coming from and going to that parking lot. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So do you -- do you recall when the gate was up? MS. BAMMEL: I do recall when the gate was up. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And were things better -- were things better when the gate was up? MS. BAMMEL: They were. They were much better because it restricted the vehicles that could go through it, which were primarily the Seed to Table shuttle bus, I think a few FPL vehicles, and then the county buses. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Transportation. MS. BAMMEL: And it wasn't very much of that. It was just occasionally they would come through. But if you actually go out and look at the intersection there, it's very small. You can only fit in, like, two or three vehicles before you get to the light between Piper Boulevard and Immokalee Road. So you also have restricted view fields coming through there. January 23, 2025 Page 16 So if you're going south on Lakeland, you get to -- you go through the Piper Boulevard cross-street, and there's no restrictions through proper [sic]. So you get up to it. There's a box in the road that's painted white that people are supposed to stop at. Once the intersection fills up with those two or three vehicles, then you're supposed to proceed through. So because of that box, or the requirement for it, and the limited space between where that box ends and the light is, cars will back up before the box at the throughway and on both sides on Piper Boulevard. And what we're seeing now is vehicles that want to go to or from the Seed to Table parking lot not wanting to wait. So they will actually go into the other line, they drive around the stopped vehicles and shoot through the intersection. And either they don't know it's supposed to be straight-through traffic that's not stopped by a stop sign, or they don't care, and they've almost caused collisions on several occasions. And if you look at the density for the area, there's over 400 single-family homes in that area, along with some multifamily homes in one of the other adjacent Piper Boulevard housing complexes. And you go down further, and you have a business center at the end of the Airport-Pulling Road, and then you have Palm River. So we have restricted points where we can access the neighborhood. Three of them have lights. Piper -- or, I'm sorry. Palm River is pretty decent. They've got a pretty nice setup for their exit, but for where Willoughby Acres is, it's very restricted. It was already somewhat dangerous before the traffic was allowed to go through, so this has significantly increased the danger of the intersection. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. BAMMEL: The county's been well aware of this issue for quite a while. I mean, there's multiple complaints that were put in. January 23, 2025 Page 17 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So it's not -- for you, it's not the issue of the FPL. MS. BAMMEL: No. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It's not the CAT bus -- MS. BAMMEL: No. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- that you're worried about. It's not even the shuttle that Seed to Table is using. MS. BAMMEL: It's the gate that's no longer there restricting traffic. THE COURT REPORTER: One at a time. One at a time. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It's just -- yeah. Individual -- yeah, see, I told you she would do that. MS. BAMMEL: Thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I'm in trouble now. MS. BAMMEL: Yeah, and it can be used as a cut-through from -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Right. MS. BAMMEL: And that's what we're seeing, too. The others you were seeing is because people don't want to go through that intersection at Piper Boulevard and Euclid. They'll now start cutting through one of the neighborhoods that has an entrance before that intersection, cut through, go through the middle section of Willoughby Acres to try to get to another road that takes them out to a main access point. So our roads are very narrow. We don't have much light at nighttime. We don't have a lot of sidewalks, so kids are playing in the streets. We now have a lot more traffic that's going very fast cutting through the neighborhood, it's increased and it's dangerous. The dangers to pedestrians and also to drivers who are just trying to get to our homes or leave their homes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So are -- these January 23, 2025 Page 18 individual cars, are they employees at Seed to Table? MS. BAMMEL: I cannot -- because I don't know how to recognize a Seed to Table employee, all's I see is that the vehicle is going all the way down to the parking lot and entering it, or they're coming from that location. It's not a bus. It's individual vehicles. And really, I've never seen -- I've seen maybe one or two buses in all the years I've been going through there, and I've never seen the Seed to Table employee shuttle. And I also question why, if there's just a need for limited individuals to access that exit or entrance, they just don't block off that portion of the parking lot, prevent it from being a cut-through, and then for the Seed to Table shuttle, they can just walk over to the shuttle. They don't need to drive through that area of the parking lot. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah, I agree. Okay. So I understand your point of view. Anything else? MS. BAMMEL: Not at this point. Oh, just -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: You only get one shot at it. MS. BAMMEL: I'm sorry. Let me go ahead. For notification, I actually was in contact with the original project manager, and I submitted a request to be notified of the meetings that are taking place, the original NIM and this meeting. We were told at the NIM that we would be notified, as we provided our contact information, and that's not been done. The only people who have been notified of these meetings are the ones that are within 500 feet of the -- I think the exit and entrance of the parking lot -- their parking lot itself. If you actually look at where that intersection is at for Piper Boulevard and, you know, the Willoughby Acres exit, that's well beyond 500 feet, and that's the danger point. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. I'm going to January 23, 2025 Page 19 follow back up on that. Any idea who's taking down the fence? MS. BAMMEL: I actually wrote to FPL, their corporate office, and they sent me a letter stating that it was not their employees. So I got that in writing. I've asked if there's actual camera video of who's taking that down or if the security guard has seen who's taking it down, and nobody seems to have that information or be willing to provide it. But if it's secure and it's being -- the parking lot's being monitored as it's been agreed to, then I wouldn't expect that gate to be able to be taken down. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. BAMMEL: I also question speed bumps being as effective as, you know, bollards blocking it off or a restriction gate. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. I understand. Thank you. Thank you for being here. MS. BAMMEL: Thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Before the next speaker comes up, can someone at the county just clarify for me the notice -- the radius notice; is it from the property line of the PUD? MR. BOSI: Correct. It's the property line of the affected PUD area. It's 500 feet. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So it would extend at least -- and it seems like the Willoughby Drive folks would have received something. I'm just looking at the aerial in the staff report. MR. BOSI: Yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I mean, if I use that just generally. But then even, I guess, the northern -- the northwest corner of the PUD would reach out to some homeowners there as well. I did notice there were two signs on the property. So it's like double -- double signed on both sides of the property with very large, January 23, 2025 Page 20 it looked like, 8x4 signs. MR. BOSI: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Who else do we have? MR. SUMMERS: Next we have Kathy Messina. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Hi, Kathy. MS. MESSINA: Hi, thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Name and address, please. MS. MESSINA: Kathy Messina, 11177 Palmetto Ridge Drive. I have never been notified, ever. The last meeting Sean Sammon assured me that when I gave him my e-mail and phone number I would be notified. I'm not notified because of the 500 feet. Five hundred feet is woods, and it's FPL. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yep. MS. MESSINA: Palmetto Ridge is directly impacted from Piper Boulevard. And I might add that Palmetto Ridge used to own Piper Boulevard. The Lorasta (phonetic) family that built the development still lives there, and it was taken away by eminent domain. So that's how close we are. And it has greatly impacted all 29 residences, as they are now cutting through Palmetto Ridge because of all of the backed up traffic that people are coming through, and they are cutting the light. And it's a very dangerous situation. Even the CAT bus, to me, I question why a CAT bus is going through residential properties. No one has -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: One second. Let me just understand this point really quickly, because I see where Palmetto Ridge is, but what's -- MS. MESSINA: It's a horseshoe, and I'm on the dead-end. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: What is the January 23, 2025 Page 21 cut-through? What is -- I mean, what are the benefits -- yeah, I know, but -- MS. MESSINA: Because it's all backed up on Piper Boulevard so they can make a right -- right onto Palmetto Ridge. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Remember what I said about our court reporter? She's about to, like, kick me out of this room in a minute. If we start talking over each other, we're going to have a problem. Okay. I'm trying to ask you a couple of questions. MS. MESSINA: Okay. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So let me ask you a few questions. It's important that I understand this. So I understand where Palmetto Ridge is. So are they taking Lakewood -- MS. MESSINA: Lakeland, yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- Lakeland Avenue, to go where? MS. MESSINA: To go into their residence. It dead ends. There's really only one access, and it's way in the back of Willoughby Acres. So really, all of Willoughby Acres and even Palm River can get through to Willoughby Acres and come up Lakeland or Euclid. They are parallel, and they run right to Piper Boulevard. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. MESSINA: So they don't want to sit. You know, before there wasn't backed up traffic. People weren't cutting through like they are now. Now it's a major roadway with hundreds of cars a day coming through. And the last meeting, I asked Mr. Sammon if he had even been to the site, and he said no, that it wasn't near where he lived or back and forth to work. So thank you for going and actually seeing the nightmare situation. I appreciate it. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Let's not -- let's not attack county staff, please. January 23, 2025 Page 22 MS. MESSINA: I've been working on this. There's no attack. It's the truth. And I am directly impacted, and I'm not even notified. It's unconscionable. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Well, you're here, so you obviously knew about it. MS. MESSINA: Through Michelle, thank you very much. I don't get the paper anymore. I'm disabled. I'm separated, living in the same house as my husband. You know, it has not been easy. This started, the nightmare, when I had shoulder surgery. And I had -- I was out of work for three months. And I have a dog that was blind and in kidney failure, and I was out front all the time. I have a front row to a three-ring circus, and now it's lethal. There was an accident. Mr. Ortman was very nice, so I will compliment the county when it needs to. Eric Ortman listened; he cared. And he retired. And I let him know about the fatality of a road rage incident that happened at the entrance of Seed to Table's parking lot up on Livingston. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Where the supermarket is, not the employee parking? MS. MESSINA: The employee parking lot. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: The employee parking lot. MS. MESSINA: He was going north on Livingston. There was a road rage incident after the intersection of Livingston and Immokalee Road, and he wound up going airborne and went over the median and flipped. People are in a hurry. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. MS. MESSINA: So what was just the shuttle -- which I asked him -- because I'm out there all the time. I told him, "You're not supposed to be using Piper Boulevard," and he said, "Tell it to my January 23, 2025 Page 23 boss," and they kept using it. CAT bus is coming through, as they are allowed. But the problem is the original contract that was signed by the county -- and this is what angers me, when I don't have people call me back or accept my phone call or get in touch. The contract reads that Seed to Table was required to have it fully fenced with a gate and a guard and a guardhouse. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. What contract are you referring to? MS. MESSINA: The one he signed. I think it was, like, 100-year contract with the county. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: With the county? MS. MESSINA: Yes. It's a county contract. I did speak to Collier County's lawyer, and he said that -- don't quote me, but this -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Which lawyer? They have a lot of lawyers. MS. MESSINA: I have it written down. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: They have a lot of lawyers. MS. MESSINA: Right. And thank God for Michelle, because this is all envelopes and pads in between the dying dog and me trying to live my disabled life. So what the county is doing is saying, "It doesn't matter if we sign a contract. We're going to let them do what they want," and that's basically what it comes down to. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. MESSINA: He -- Mr. Oakes boasted on his website that he has 3,500 employees. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Who is Mr. Oakes? MS. MESSINA: He owns Seed to Table. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. January 23, 2025 Page 24 MS. MESSINA: Food & Thought. He's since opened another restaurant and a store. He obviously has the money. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So he's the owner of Seed to Table -- MS. MESSINA: Yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- and this employee -- MS. MESSINA: Yes. He's the one that sets off fireworks on the 4th of July in the parking lot as well. He's got total control. If there's -- up until lately, the big pieces of fake fence, those were missing. The gate they put up was a toothpick. I've been working on this even since FPL, and the gentleman that was helping me retired. A lot of people are washing their hands of Collier County. And he was the nicest person. He went as far as putting up a cattle fence on his own, and then he was told to take it down. So then, between the developer and maybe even FPL, the toothpick went up. And that you can just take out -- it's nothing. It's a little piece of wood. So lately, I want to say two months ago, somebody not only -- because Seed to Table did put it back up. I saw the people there. It was functioning. And by the end of the day, not only was the gate down, it was dismantled and vandalized, the unit. So in my opinion, if you're going to have a gate, it's going to have to have somebody that's going to be there and make sure it's not vandalized, at least in the beginning. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Let me ask you two questions. MS. MESSINA: Sure. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Whose gate is it? Who owns the gate? MS. MESSINA: It would be Seed to Table. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. January 23, 2025 Page 25 MS. MESSINA: Because that's in the contract that he has to do that. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. I'm going to ask about the contract in a minute. MS. MESSINA: Yeah, there's a contract. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: My second question is, do you have any idea who took the fence down? MS. MESSINA: Well, when I talked to FPL, he said that Seed to Table employees told him that FPL drivers were taking it down, and I believe that. They didn't have access. A gate was put up, and no one was given any of the codes to open it. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. MESSINA: So also FPL saw Seed to Table people -- employees taking it down. They do use it at their convenience. They're -- you know, I don't think we have any upstanding citizens that are doing the right thing and going where they're supposed to. So, you know, now I have the Collier County school buses going through there. It's, like, ridiculous. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. MESSINA: And there's going to be a building now there on Piper Boulevard. The county had it as a staging area, so it was dump trucks coming in and out, and now there's going to be a building. I don't know who's in that building, what the county's building, how many more employees. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. MESSINA: But Michelle is correct in saying just move it. Let FPL have their own site, and the water department, and just have Alfie Oakes and the CAT bus worry about it. And there's never been a camera. There's never been police presence. No one's ever been ticketed. And now all of Willoughby January 23, 2025 Page 26 Acres and Palm River, probably, are going to break the gate. So I am no longer saying it's just going to be FPL or Seed to Table, because now you have hundreds of people that don't care about Palmetto Ridge. I had a paradise sitting on my front porch. Sure, there's traffic. Now there's beeping horns. There's screeching tires. Nobody gives Lakeland that right-of-way that they have. It's like this (indicating). HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And there's no light at Lakeland? MS. MESSINA: No, no. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So -- MS. MESSINA: And they're making -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Ma'am, ma'am. Again -- MS. MESSINA: No light. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- I get you're emotionally invested in this, but when I ask you -- I'm asking you a question, and you're talking over me -- MS. MESSINA: I'm sorry. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- and it's going to make it hard for these transcripts to be clear. MS. MESSINA: Okay. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And you've been waiting a long time to get to this hearing, so -- MS. MESSINA: Like eight years. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: You just -- you just cut me off again. MS. MESSINA: Oh, I'm sorry. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Don't worry about it. I won't cut you off if you won't do it to me. All right. What else? Anything else? January 23, 2025 Page 27 MS. MESSINA: Michelle is correct in saying that they are now using the yellow "Do not go outside your lane" to make their own lane. So I'm out there watching near misses every day. I asked the county three or four years ago when I was sitting out there -- but I'm disabled now. I'm out there a lot -- to repaint the whole intersection because I couldn't believe that no one would give access to the people that have the right-of-way. Because it was very faded, and they were -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And you're talking about what access? At Lakeland? MS. MESSINA: There it is in the middle of that whole intersection -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Tell me which intersection you're talking about. MS. MESSINA: Piper/Lakeland. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Piper and Lakeland, right. That's what I wanted you to tell me. MS. MESSINA: Right, okay. Like Michelle said, there's two cars -- three or four cars that can fit, and then they can't, and it's painted white in a box with Xs. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. MESSINA: It couldn't be seen, so I asked them to repaint that and all the yellow lines. So now people are very aware, and they don't care. They're parking in the middle of it, coming off of Piper Boulevard, and they are restricting the access of the cars that have the right-of-way and are heading south on Lakeland to go to Immokalee Road. So when they're not blocking it -- and the people that are coming off of Immokalee Road, again, only two or three cars can go -- they can't turn and go east onto Piper because there's somebody that thinks they're more important than anybody else, blocking the entire January 23, 2025 Page 28 intersection. And if they're not doing that, they're pulling out in front of the people that have the right-of-way. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. MESSINA: And this is all I'm watching all day every day, and it was never like that when I bought this house. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. I'm going to give you 30 seconds to wrap up, because I've given you a lot of time, a lot more time than natural, because I can tell that you're -- MS. MESSINA: Do you have any questions? HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I do not. I've been listening and taking notes and -- MS. MESSINA: Well, thank you, because I feel like for the first time I am being heard, and it's been very frustrating. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I understand. And this is the purpose of this public hearing is for you to -- I can see you're frustrated, and that's why I wanted you to have -- MS. MESSINA: I had Code Enforcement on it. I'll give you another compliment. They were great. And Tom Iandimarino came in as manager and closed it and washed his hands of it, and that's why we are here. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. MESSINA: It never should have been permitted. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you very much. MS. MESSINA: Thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Next speaker, please. MS. RAY: Leah Ray. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Ms. Ray. THE COURT REPORTER: I need to swear her in. MS. RAY: I didn't do this part because I didn't know I was talking. THE COURT REPORTER: Do you swear or affirm the January 23, 2025 Page 29 testimony you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? MS. RAY: I didn't hear most of that -- yes. THE COURT REPORTER: Do you swear or affirm the testimony you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? MS. RAY: Yes, I do. Yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. MS. RAY: Hi. I'm Leah Ray. Okay. Let me get my thoughts together. I've lived in this neighborhood for about nine years. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. RAY: And I guess, after COVID and the traffic on Immokalee and Livingston just got really bad -- and I'm sure everybody knows -- trying to leave my neighborhood at that intersection -- we're talking Piper and Lakeland -- is just -- coming here I almost got here three times. I almost get hit by somebody on a daily basis. It's -- the people on Piper that are doing the cut-through, they know they've broken the law -- I don't know if they've broken the law -- but cut through Seed to Table on Livingston, and then they're just going to keep on going as far down Piper as they can before they get on Immokalee Road. So -- it's -- my daughters borrowed my car when they were in town, and I said one hand -- sorry about the honking -- one hand on the brake [sic] and one hand on the horn, because somebody is going to blow through there. They're not going to acknowledge that you're there. Another impact on this intersection is -- I'm real involved in that big steeple church on Immokalee Road, Vanderbilt Presbyterian. And we were bagging food for homeless people, and somebody said, "Thank God we've got that cut-through at Seed to Table." January 23, 2025 Page 30 And I went, "What are you ladies talking about?" They live in some of the neighborhoods that are further north on Livingston, and that's their favorite way to cut through to get to church, and leaving. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So let me just stop you for a minute on that one. So I want to -- I want to understand now. So I think what you're telling me is that a good little cut-through of not having to go, basically, through the intersection of Immokalee and Livingston is basically to take Piper, go through the parking lot, go out onto Livingston, come back, do a U-turn, and go north? Is that essentially what you're saying? MS. RAY: Go back and do a U-turn? HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I think that's what -- MS. RAY: I know that's how they're getting to the church. I'm not sure -- I don't think they can get back that way because you can't go north on Livingston. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I understand what you're saying. Thank you. MS. RAY: I was headed to a meeting the other night about 6:30, and I needed to get through this intersection, and I went, "I'm never going to get out on Immokalee Road here," so I chose to drive down to where Airport and Piper run in, and there was cars all the way down. It was tons of people avoiding Immokalee and Livingston, and they're literally going to Seed to Table and popping -- they're saving 20 minutes of sitting in stopped traffic. I put some things on the Nextdoor app and got persecuted by people that have kids that go to the schools up Livingston. They said, "You can't -- you better not close that thing up. That's" -- I guess it's how they come home, because they can't go north there. But they're saying, "We need that cut-through. You can't do that." A lot of my neighbors that have middle-schoolers say, "I need that. I January 23, 2025 Page 31 need to have that." But I was in an Uber the other day, and he tried to do the cut-through at Seed to -- I was coming from Bonita Springs to come home, and said no. And he goes, "I know a way," and he literally brought me home through the Seed to Table parking lot. So everybody's using it. I mean, it's -- I don't know. I wish -- we should have some video for you folks, but it is seriously bad. Come check it out about 4:30, 5:00, and you will see hundreds of cars going, "That's my cut-through. I'm using that." If we had a gate, a real gate, it would stop the cut-through traffic, and let Alfie Oakes have his employee parking lot. They don't need to exit on Piper. So -- One other thing, I was -- again, I've got business I do up in Bonita Springs. I went, "I just want to see. Did they put a clicker in so we see how much traffic is going? Did they put a sign up?" Because we've already had one little meeting at Collier park, whatever -- what's the water park called there? MR. BOSI: North Regional. MS. RAY: Okay, Regional park. I lost my train of thought -- what I was doing at the -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: You were -- I think you were alluding to whether they did any traffic -- MS. RAY: Oh, that's right. Thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- traffic counts. MS. RAY: So we've got -- there's going to be a sign, there was going to be a counter, and there was going to be some deputy sheriff presence. So twice I've come home that way, illegally doing it. I just wanted to see if anything had happened, and that's when we saw the sign announcing this meeting. We did not get an e-mail or a letter January 23, 2025 Page 32 like we were promised. We filled out a sheet of paper saying you've got to let us know. So the people that are getting informed are on the other side of Livingston, and they don't even know what's going on. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. RAY: Have you got any questions of me? HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: No. MS. RAY: I'm the same way. This is an emotional thing. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I can tell. MS. RAY: It's dangerous. It is dangerous. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I can tell. All right. Thank you. Everything you have expressed has been helpful to me. Thank you. Who else do we have? MR. SUMMERS: That's all, sir. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: That's everybody. Okay. There are more people in the room. I guess they don't want to... All right. I have a couple questions. Is the applicant still here? Come on up. We're going to have to address a few things. I need clarity. And this is going to involve the county as well here. First of all, be patient. What is this contract that I'm hearing about? Do you have any idea? Does anybody have any idea what the reference to a contract is? MR. BOSI: I would assume that when -- the arrangement for Alfie Oakes and Seed to Table to utilize the county property, that there was also a contract that was established between the two parties aside from the PUD. It's not a -- it's not an attachment to the PUD. It's a contract for the utilization of county property. That's what I can imagine. January 23, 2025 Page 33 MR. LASCANO: Yeah. There was a lease agreement. Basically it was Alfie Oakes/Seed to Table would pay for the construction of the parking lot and for the use, but technically it's owned by Collier County, so he is leasing it back from Collier County. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: The entire property -- MR. LASCANO: Yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- on -- MR. LASCANO: So basically the entire property is an FPL easement, but it's owned by Collier County. So Alfie paid for the entire construction of the parking lot, and then he -- but also now he leases it back from Collier County. I think it's a 99-year lease. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. That makes sense to me now. All right. Have there been any traffic analyses done on the impact of the intersection of Piper and Lakeland, any analysis here? MR. LASCANO: So Jim Banks is the transportation engineer that did this. I spoke to him today; he couldn't attend. But he told me that when we did the PUD, he was -- he met with staff, and he was told to -- the main intersection was Livingston, and the Seed to Table parking lot he had to analyze, but the Piper is also what he analyzed, but he did not extend it to that Lakeland intersection. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So right now, as we sit, we don't have any current -- one second. Everybody wants to interrupt me today. I guess -- I don't know. Maybe I'm translucent. Right now, as we sit here, the gate's down. The gate has gone down a couple times. You said that yourself. MR. LASCANO: (Nods head.) HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: We do not have any current data and analysis on what's happening because of that -- the impact on the intersection at Lakeland and Piper. January 23, 2025 Page 34 MR. LASCANO: So the property is a private property, and there's basically three tenants that can use it: CAT bus, FP&L, and the Seed to Table employees. It is not meant for a cut-through. So when he did his analysis, it's not designed for a cut-through and for people at Willoughby Acres to use that as a cut-through. So that's why he did not -- and he met with staff, and that's how they wanted him to analyze the Traffic Impact Statement. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So you said something that's important to me. So this -- the gate is also -- the employees, it's permissible for them to go through the gate? MR. LASCANO: No. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Well, you just said so. MR. LASCANO: Not the gate. The property itself has three tenants. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: But their -- the employees, their ingress and egress is only through that entrance -- MR. LASCANO: Livingston. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- up where the -- on Livingston, right -- MR. LASCANO: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- where the CAT bus station is and the parking is and all that? MR. LASCANO: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. LASCANO: So they're strictly Livingston ingress and egress. But FP&L, the CAT bus -- so CAT bus enters from the south -- Piper's where the gate is -- and then they exit on Livingston and continue their route. FP&L really only uses it -- they have a little station right there. They only use the south end. They don't really -- but they have access because they have poles and stuff they have to maintain. January 23, 2025 Page 35 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So with regard to the -- maybe I'm going to direct this to both, maybe to the county first and then to you. But I'm just curious, like, when these gates go down, first of all, who's taking them down? And, No. 2, wouldn't that be a code enforcement problem, and has anybody engaged Code Enforcement? MR. BOSI: I don't believe the county has documentation of who is taking the gates down it. But there is a -- there is a requirement within the existing PUD that this entrance be gated, so it is a code enforcement issue. And I think there was a code enforcement case once that was dismissed, and then there was another one that is -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Is there currently a pending code enforcement action against them? MR. SAMMON: Yes. For the record, Sean Sammon. The code case that's opened is a continuation from one that was closed. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Can you just give me that number? MR. SAMMON: Yeah. It's CELU20230002442. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Two two -- MR. SAMMON: 2442. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Got it. Now -- okay. So right now, as we speak, the gate is down. It's not attached. It's not working. There's nothing working. I drove through it myself, okay. So they're in violation of the PUD. I mean, black-and-white violation. So that code case, who is that directed to? I mean, who did they serve -- who is it -- is that a violation served on Seed to Table? They're the ones that are responsible for keeping that gate up? Do we know? I mean, this is the Seed to Table PUD, right? Like, I January 23, 2025 Page 36 mean, that's their employee, so this is an offsite -- let's face it, like, what happened here was that they have a big supermarket, not enough parking spaces, so they have an offsite parking place negotiated with the county for their employees. I get it. The parking lot was full. It's always full. It's a tricky -- it's a tricky place traffic-wise. MR. BOSI: The case would be against Seed to Table. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Seed to Table. That's what I wanted to know. Even though it's in -- because they're the leaseholder -- they're the leaseholder of the property even though it's owned -- I get it. Okay. So the code enforcement case is currently pending before somebody. All right. Frustrating. Have you thought of any other solutions to this? I mean -- because you're saying, like, it's really FP&L and the -- and the bus, they need to get through there. They have the right to get through there. That's what's allowable. And so what was it? Like, a clicker, or how were they getting through before? MR. LASCANO: I think there was a code or something. I know for FP&L, they were given the code, but when their drivers and stuff would show up, they were not given the code, so they sat there. They're not patient. So my understanding is a lot of times they would just break through. As far as Seed to Table, he has no interest whether the gate is up or down, but he's been maintaining it and, basically, he got tired of having to continue to maintain it while people were taking it down. But for him, his employees are only restricted to using Livingston. It was CAT bus that came to us and asked us, because they wanted it removed, and that's why we're here, really, is for CAT bus. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. And do you have a -- do you understand -- do you understand some of the January 23, 2025 Page 37 comments that are being made here by the neighborhood? MR. LASCANO: Oh, yeah. So I have a friend that lives in their neighborhood, and I understand the traffic there. It's been terrible, even before the parking lot. It's a tough area to get in and out. They only have three forms of in and out. So I understand where they're coming from. But the only other thing we suggested was -- I wish I had a picture of the area. But we proposed a cut -- put a curb in one area where you have to drive around the parking lot, and that would kind of stop it, but CAT bus did not want to do that. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. LASCANO: So we proposed that. Then we came up with the speed bumps. Yeah. So if you -- I mean, if you can kind of see, when you pull in, at the bottom there's a little parking area. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Are you talking here? MR. LASCANO: Up, up, up. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Up here? MR. LASCANO: You want me -- can I go up there and show you real quick? So basically, they're coming up here, coming through here. What we said is we'll cut this off. You know, kind of curve this area here so that people have to go around here, and the CAT bus said no. I mean, that would kind of deter and make them -- it's not such a smooth ride. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. It's actually more hazardous. MR. LASCANO: So when I spoke with Jim Banks, the engineer, he told me that the easiest way to deter cut-through traffic is speed bumps because the gate, he says, you're basically going to have the same issue. People are going to continue to knock that thing down. January 23, 2025 Page 38 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. So let me ask you another question, if you can answer this. On this parcel to the -- to the south, it says, "Parcel U, utility site," is that -- is something going to be developed there, built there? Is something planned right now that you know about? MR. LASCANO: I don't -- county -- it's a county property for utilities. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Do we know about anything being planned there? MR. SAMMON: No. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And then on the other side is a pump station, so it's being used as a pump station. MR. LASCANO: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Oh, my God. I can only imagine when this whole PUD was done that this was a complicated scenario. So traditionally -- traditionally a property owner, a proprietor of a supermarket with an out-parcel, Dunkin' Donuts, would be required to keep all of their parking on site. Am I wrong or right about that? Traditionally. Not you. County planning. MR. BOSI: Yes, correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yes. That is the traditional way of going about doing things. That, you know, people have to have -- it's a mathematical formula. You know, the square feet, you know, you guys know what the uses are, and, you know, how much traffic they attract, and this is kind of like trying to fit, you know, a square into a circle. And so -- MR. LASCANO: So. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: (Indicating) I'm just saying that this has all started because of that. Somebody said yes to that. Somebody said, "Here's this use." Maybe it's being overused. January 23, 2025 Page 39 I don't know. But it's causing a lot -- I mean, I saw at least 100 -- at least 100 cars parked in the employee parking lot. And I find it hard to believe that there's a hundred people working in that supermarket. But maybe. Maybe it's true. I don't know. And the parking lot wasn't even full. I mean, it's two-thirds full. So this is a mess that I did not create, but I guess I'm going to have to figure out a way to solve this problem. MR. LASCANO: So the Seed to Table is designed to -- per county code, parking, it has enough. So we did the tenant improvement for him, but when we started to do the tenant improvement, talking to him, he said, "I'm going to be having about 120, 100-some-odd" -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Why? Why? Wait, wait, wait. You just said -- you just said that he met his parking requirements when he opened -- MR. LASCANO: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- on site, but he wanted more. Why? MR. LASCANO: No, no. So as a grocery store, you would -- for parking calculations, there's a formula. I think it might be one per hundred. I don't know what it is. But as far as parking is as a grocery store, he meets that requirement. But when we spoke to him, he said, "I'm probably going to have about 100 employees." So we were trying to explain to him, you're going to nix a lot of that parking. So that's when they came up and discussed with Collier County about creating a parking lot -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Let me stop you. MR. LASCANO: -- for the employees. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So I'm going to ask the county this question. When you're doing the calculations, the mathematical calculations, do you or do you not include employees January 23, 2025 Page 40 as well as customers? MR. BOSI: You include employees at a specific ratio and a different ratio for your customers. But yes, they're all included within the requirements for your on-site parking. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. So this is just an add-on. MR. LASCANO: I think it's per square feet, to be quite honest, and then you can break it down. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So what we're saying -- he's saying that they -- he's sufficient -- that the supermarket and the Dunkin' Donuts has sufficient parking for its employees and customers, right? MR. BOSI: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: In your expert -- MR. BOSI: And the county agrees with that. And I'll give you a little context. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Please. MR. BOSI: So when this was originally developed, the whole idea of why he needed the additional parking is because he is making fresh salsa. There's a unique -- this isn't a regular supermarket. This has a mezzanine, and it's got individual restaurants. It has -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I've never been there, just so you know. I don't know this. MR. BOSI: There is a much more robust need for employees in this restaurant compared to a -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. BOSI: -- within this supermarket compared to a traditional Publix. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So it's a supermarket -- MR. LASCANO: Specialty. January 23, 2025 Page 41 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- plus venue. Let's not talk over each other. I need to get this clear. It's a venue. So other things are going on there, and you all knew about -- the county knew about this when you -- when you approved it, and I guess you -- you must have taken that into consideration in the parking, right? MR. BOSI: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So it's not quite a supermarket. It's a supermarket plus other stuff. MR. BOSI: Correct. And I mean, Publix has places where you can eat in their -- at their deli. It's that on steroids. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Right. On steroids, okay. But still, it's math. It's mathematical. MR. BOSI: Yes, it is. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: This is, like -- your traffic analysis and parking calculations are all mathematical. And so what I'm getting at is this is -- this is a problem being put in my lap, and it started somewhere else, you know, when this venue/supermarket was approved. And, again, I don't know this because I've never been there. I don't know what it's like. I don't -- I just know that when I drive by, the parking lot is always full. So they're doing something right because people want to be there. That's all I can say. Okay. So we have a difficult situation. Traffic is interesting because when there's a -- when there's -- that intersection is probably failing, maybe, at certain times as far as its level of service, because I image the backup is incredible. So just like water and gravity, you know, people are going to go try to find things to get around, right? MR. LASCANO: Uh-huh. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Like the Uber. She mentioned the Uber driver even knew about it. And so it's only January 23, 2025 Page 42 going to get worse. I don't -- I can't imagine speed bumps are going to change anything, you know. MR. LASCANO: I mean -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I mean, it will annoy a few people, but it's not going to stop that. MR. LASCANO: You could put the gate up. It will continue to get put down. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: But the Code Enforcement will have to eventually be dealt with, right? MR. LASCANO: But it wasn't just -- like, Seed to Table -- it was CAT bus that came to us to ask us to remove this, put it in the PUD. It's been -- it's been an issue for them. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Because they can't get through it? MR. LASCANO: Correct. I guess there's issues where sometimes the gate doesn't work; and they get [sic] through. And they're saying that their routes are missing their times. I mean, you would -- I think we have an e-mail from CAT bus. But that's how we got here as far as the gate's concerned. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Yeah. So I know part of this is going -- part of this analysis -- so you know what my criteria is, right? So, again, you know, I told you -- I told everybody this at the very beginning. You know, my job is to look for competent substantial evidence as applied to the criteria that's in the code for making these insubstantial adjustments. Now, if it was a substantial adjustment, it would go to somebody else, the Planning Commission, right? So I'm just a little guy in this whole thing, so they just send little things to me, minor things. But at the same time, I have to look at the criteria, and I guarantee you part of this evaluation is going to be "Does it have impacts on surrounding property owners?" Almost January 23, 2025 Page 43 every criteria does when there's a change. I mean, I've been in this business long enough. I've got a master's in planning. I'm also a lawyer. I know how this whole thing works. So I'm hearing a lot of testimony from people that live in the neighborhood that are saying they're impacted dramatically by this. And so what I'm hearing from you is that the transportation authority, or whatever it is that runs the CAT system, just can't get their ducks in a row so that their drivers can't get through the gate, so somebody smashes through it or takes it down, or FP&L can't get their ducks in a row and provide some kind of -- it just -- it seems like a simple solution that people have to know, like, if there's a gate here, and if we're going to use it, we've got to provide our drivers with access to open and shut it, right? Because I guarantee you after a month or two when that substantial gate is there and no one can get through, people's -- just behavior, human behavior, they will stop using that as a cut-through. MR. LASCANO: The cut-through is also benefiting Willoughby Acres. So you do have people here that disagree and want the county to stop traffic, but you also have a substantial amount of residents using that cut-through. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. First of all, nobody has said that, personally, except for you and someone else. Like I said, I heard it said, but it's secondhand. There's nobody here saying, "Yes, do this. I want this to happen because it's going to help our neighborhood." There's nobody here doing that. So that's not -- there's no substantial competent evidence for me to be able to say, "Hey, this is going to benefit the neighborhood," you know, except for -- I get it. You know, one of the neighbors did say, like, "Oh, don't do that because it's going to interfere with my dropping off my middle school child," so I get that, too. But I'm concerned about the fact that there hasn't been any January 23, 2025 Page 44 analysis or any attempt to get any hard data on what's going on at the intersection of Lakeland and Piper, you know what I mean? Because that's a dangerous situation. And if I rule, like, "Go ahead, open the gates, open the flood gates, you know, no problem, you know, it's all permitted," and then someone gets hurt there, you know how bad I'm going to feel. MR. LASCANO: I understand. I can tell you, though, prior to this development, those three intersections on Piper have been an issue. Immokalee Road has been failing for a while. So I understand the gate doesn't help -- you know, removing the gate doesn't help the situation, but that situation, whether the gate's there or not, they're always going to have a situation there. The bridge crossing where you -- where she's basically said you have three cars and then they're backed up -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: They're stacked up. MR. LASCANO: Yeah, so it's -- basically there's three times of the day. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Right. MR. LASCANO: And it's always going to be that issue, so... HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So that is a -- it's supposed to be -- in that -- in the planning world, I think -- correct me if I'm wrong, because you guys are actually doing it. I used to do it -- I believe that's considered an access road, right? So -- to get people off of the main arterial and get them onto an access road where they can filter into the neighborhood, right? That's the thought process. MR. BOSI: A frontage road, yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yes, exactly. And you've got several of those in the county. The county does it on a lot of places which gets people off the main thoroughfare, and it's a smart -- from a transportation point of view, it's a smart way of January 23, 2025 Page 45 doing it. But what's happening is that traffic is getting so bad on Immokalee and Livingston that those, you know, sort access roads are turning into major arterials, and everything's backing up. MR. LASCANO: I agree. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And I'm just really worried about contributing to that. This is -- this is going to be a really tough one, and I'm sorry if I offended anybody. I don't -- I didn't mean to, but I'm just aggravated that this is falling into my lap because someone made a decision wherever they made a decision about this grocery store/venue which is seriously unique, I guess, because it's -- I wouldn't call it Publix. Yes, they have a -- they have a little dining thing, but they don't have what I'm hearing they have at this place. I mean, not the least of which there's a Dunkin' Donuts there, and everybody loves Donuts -- Dunkin' Donuts. At least in my neighborhood they do. So that can't be helping things. All right. Anything else? MR. LASCANO: No, I think we're fine. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. MR. LASCANO: Thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you for being here. I don't mean to sound overly annoyed about this, but I am a little bit, because this is not really the way things are supposed to be set up, and I think everybody knows that. But it is set up that way. It's that way, and this is a -- this is the choice that -- the situation that I have to do. I have to weigh the evidence that I'm hearing here today. The competent substantial evidence comes from the county, county planners, you. I can listen to the neighbors because they have layperson testimony. They have -- they have real fact-based testimony. I have to sort out what part of it is emotional and not fact-based. But there was a lot of fact-based layperson testimony from people that live in the January 23, 2025 Page 46 neighborhood that I think I can consider, and I will consider. So thanks. MR. LASCANO: All right. Thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And somebody put you in a difficult situation today. MR. LASCANO: It's all right. Thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. With regard to the notice, everybody, this is not something to be, you know, pointing fingers at the county for, honestly, because radius notices are mathematical. They're set up by -- and sometimes they fail because of the configuration of the property, right? And some people don't fall in the radius; some people do. And if -- you know, there was a neighborhood information meeting. There are signs out. We're having this meeting. I believe that there are -- you know, typically the county does its best to reply to people when -- I know this for a fact. I've been here for several years, and I know the county does try to reply when they can, but they're not obligated to do that. So in my opinion, I believe that the minimum -- that the minimum requirement for due process has been exceeded. I think it has been exceeded. I know people feel like they should have been contacted personally. But as far as notice, I'm not worried about that. But I am -- this is a challenging decision to make. I'm going to ask the county if they have anything else because we talked about a lot of stuff, and you guys provided me with some extra information about the lease and how this -- how -- historically how this came to be, so now I have a better understanding of how it happened, and so thank you for that. If you have anything else you want to say... MR. BOSI: Mike Bosi, Planning and Zoning director. Just to call it out, Attachment D attached to the staff report is the correspondence from a representative of the CAT system. He January 23, 2025 Page 47 indicated that they attended the pre-application meeting and indicated that they do want the gate removed where -- they said, anecdotally, "They've had multiple occurrences where the gate being closed interferes with our routes and causes delays because we are unable to pass through and service our bus stop. We've spoken with Seed to Table representatives, FPL staff, as well as Code Enforcement on the gate issue. There have been occurrences" -- and I don't know if this is factual. "There have been occurrences of nearby residents coming to lock the gate, when it was a cattle fence, and powering off the gate when it was switched to an electric gate." HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. I did see that. And I did see there's a couple versions of the gate off to the side over there. When I went out there and looked at it, it looked like they'd just kind of try different types of gates, and then they'd throw them off to the side. So it looks like it's a frustrating situation for a lot of people, and this is what I'm here for. I'm not so sure this is insubstantial, though. It feels pretty substantial to me. But I get it. I think it fits the definition of insubstantial, and I'll deal with it. Thank you, everyone. I appreciate the neighbors for coming out. I know you-all did a really good job of expressing to me what I needed to hear, so thank you for doing that; I appreciate it. And if you -- I guess what I would like is to make sure that there's somebody -- if you -- if the folks that spoke here, if you would provide an e-mail to Sean. MS. BAMMEL: We did. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Good. Great. Because I would want you to get a copy of the decision that I make, because you're not entitled to get it, but I think you -- you know, I think it's fair to -- Sean, is that something we can do is provide them that? January 23, 2025 Page 48 MR. SAMMON: Oh, absolutely. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: They took the time to come here -- MR. SAMMON: Sure, yep. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- so I think it's fair to give them a copy of the written decision when I make it. MR. SAMMON: When you make the decision, I'll forward it over to them. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you, Sean. I appreciate that. Okay. Was anybody else signed up? Nobody else? Nobody online? MR. SUMMERS: (Shakes head.) HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. I think that this is done. We'll close this. And I'll get a decision out as soon as I can. MS. MESSINA: Thank you for your time. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you, everyone. Do we have anything else to talk about today? MR. BOSI: Nothing from the county's standpoint. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right, thanks. So the meeting's adjourned. It's 2:17 p.m. ******* January 23, 2025 Page 49 There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Hearing Examiner at 2:17 p.m. COLLIER COUNTY HEARING EXAMINER ANDREW DICKMAN, HEARING EXAMINER These minutes approved by the Hearing Examiner on 2/13/25, as presented or as corrected TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF FORT MYERS COURT REPORTING, BY TERRI L. LEWIS, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER, FPR-C, AND NOTARY PUBLIC. ✔