Loading...
HEX Minutes 02/13/2025February 13, 2025 Page 1 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY HEARING EXAMINER Naples, Florida, February 13, 2025 LET IT BE REMEMBERED that the Collier County Hearing Examiner, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 2:00 p.m., in REGULAR SESSION at 2800 North Horseshoe Drive, Room 609/610, Naples, Florida, with the following people present: HEARING EXAMINER ANDREW DICKMAN ALSO PRESENT: Michael Bosi, Planning and Zoning Director Raymond V. Bellows, Zoning Manager Nancy Gundlach, Principal Planner Sean Sammon, Planner III Ashley Eoff, Planning Technician Kevin Summers, Manager - Technical Systems Operations February 13, 2025 Page 2 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Good afternoon, all. Thank you for being here everybody. Hello. All right. It's 2 p.m., February 13th. This is the Collier County Hearing Examiner meeting. If we could all rise and acknowledge our flag. (The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.) HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Thank you very much, everyone. My name is Andrew Dickman. I am the Hearing Examiner for Collier County. I am a Florida Bar attorney. I've been working in local government land-use zoning for over 20 years. I'm not a county employee. I was picked and contracted with by the Board of County Commissioners. I'm here as a neutral decision-maker for the items that are -- I'm getting a little feedback here -- to hear all the petitions that are under the jurisdiction of the Hearing Examiner. So my job is to conduct these hearings and to listen to not only county staff, the applicant, applicant's representatives, the public, but to look for competent substantial evidence as it's applied to the criteria for whatever the application is. So this is a fairly informal meeting, albeit it does have some structure to it. But I want -- if anyone's nervous about speaking, don't be, please. This is very informal. I want everyone to get whatever testimony you need to get on the record because after this meeting the record is closed. I can't do any more conversations. I can't have any more communications. I have up to 30 days to render a decision. I will not be February 13, 2025 Page 3 making a decision here today on these. I will render written decisions. Procedurally, what we like to do is start with the county. They give me a -- using this podium up here -- a quick overview on the application. There's a staff report, any -- their recommendations, any conditions that go along with it. Then we will go to the applicant or the applicant's representative over at this larger podium, and then they will do their case in chief. And I will allow for some time for any necessary rebuttal after the public comment, because we will have public comment, either here live in person, or it could be through Zoom. The county has provided an in-person and virtual capability for the public to participate via Zoom. We do have a court reporter here, and she is taking down verbatim transcripts here. And so we all have to be mindful to not talk over one another, try to answer verbally, not with heads nodding and so forth and so on. I give her full authority to stop the meeting if she's not capturing anything. She will do that even if I don't give her authority because she's that kind of person. She's very assertive, and I'm glad for it. But it's really important to get these transcripts correctly. I frequently sometimes have to reflect back on them, and then sometimes applications will come back a year or two from now, and sometimes it's good to have the transcripts to look back on rather than just the minutes. So just be kind to our court reporter, and she'll be kind to us. Anybody who is going to testify here today must do so under oath. So for all three items, anyone who's going to testify here, please stand, raise your right hand, and I'll ask February 13, 2025 Page 4 the court reporter to administer the oath. Thank you. THE COURT REPORTER: Do you swear or affirm the testimony you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? (The speakers were duly sworn and indicated in the affirmative.) HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Thank you very much. And the only disclosure I have to give is for -- and this will be for all three -- I have done site visits on each one of the matters. Drove out, looked at it, rode by it. I have not talked with anybody, don't talk with -- I do not speak with staff. I do not meet with the applicants. I come here as neutral as I possibly can. I've read all of the backup material in the file; that's available to the public. So that is my job is just be here, use this time here to ask any questions, to get any additional information. But I wanted to let everybody know that I have seen the site for all the -- for all three items. So I think that's it. ***With that, we can just jump right into Item 3A. Good afternoon. MS. GUNDLACH: Good afternoon, Mr. Hearing Examiner. I'm here to present Item 3A, which is the Mangrove Row Limited Density Bonus Pool Agreement. This is a request for an allocation of two units from the limited density bonus pool to allow for the development of eight multifamily residential dwelling units. The subject nine eight -- .9-acre [sic] property is located at 2766 Arbutus Street in the Bayshore Redevelopment Area. The petition was reviewed by staff based upon the review criteria contained within LDC Section 4.02.16, February 13, 2025 Page 5 LDBPA, for multifamily on two acres or less. Staff believes this petition is consistent with the review criteria in the Land Development Code as well as within the Growth Management Plan. With respect to the public notice requirements, they were complied with, and property owner notification letter and newspaper ad were published on Friday, January 28th, 2025. And just for clarification, no public hearing signs are required for this petition. The Bayshore CRA reviewed this limited density bonus petition at their December meeting, and consistent with the LDC section -- would you like me to read the section numbers into the record? HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Sure. MS. GUNDLACH: Okay. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. MS. GUNDLACH: Okay. 4.02.16.C.15. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. MS. GUNDLACH: Requested a monetary contribution of 3 percent of the engineer's opinion of probable cost at the time of SDP or plat to the CRA Stormwater Capital Improvement Fund. Staff recommends that the Collier County Hearing Examiner make a determination of approval subject to the following conditions of approval which are consistent with the LDC Section 4.02.16 criteria: Number 1, an additional two multifamily dwelling units for a total of eight multifamily dwelling units are permitted; No. 2, the vehicle access to Arbutus Street shall not be gated; No. 3, landscape enhancements shall be provided as depicted in Attachment D, which is the Mangrove Row February 13, 2025 Page 6 landscape plans prepared by Dan Isaacson; and No. 4, a monetary contribution shall be made to the Capital Improvement Fund 1021, Stormwater Project Fund, and it's going to be based on the two density bonus pool units received at 3 percent of the engineer's opinion of probable cost at the time of SDP or plat. And this concludes my staff summary. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. MS. GUNDLACH: You're welcome. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Good afternoon, sir. MR. COPPER: Good afternoon. My name is Brandon Copper. I am with Davidson Engineering. And this is the Mangrove Row multifamily development project. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. MR. COPPER: Next slide, please. The site's located just south of Tamiami Trail East, west of Bayshore Drive and Pine Street on Arbutus Street. The total's just shy of one full acre in size. It currently exists as vacant land. It was previously developed with nine residential units on it that were removed sometime between 1999 and 2004. My source of that is Google Earth, which is why there's a range there. Next one. We're proposing four individual buildings with a total of eight units. Our base zoning is RMF-6, which allows for six units per acre. We are requesting two additional units through the LDBPA application process, and accompanying those eight residential units will be eight docks to be deeded to the individual property owners. February 13, 2025 Page 7 Compatibility, you see we have multifamily to the north and east, some single-family to the south, and across the canal we have a mobile home development. This is our proposed site plan. You see four different colored buildings, each of those are representative of the four buildings, each containing two units each. You may be curious because you don't really see a stormwater management area on the site, but if you look at it, the paver area is actually a pervious paver system with a stone bed underneath, providing all the attenuation for the required storm events per the county code and South Florida Water Management District requirements. Each building has two parking spaces with it and also has a garage. This is our proposed dock plan. You'll see that the red line represents the property line. We are cutting into the property approximately 15 feet to allow for a total length of 27 and a half feet for a dock. On the right-hand side of the screen there, you'll see a 12-and-a-half-foot marker. That's important because, per the county code, a dock is allowed to protrude into a waterway by 25 percent of the total width of the waterway. This waterway is 50 feet. So 25 percent of that is 12 and a half. This is our landscape plan. You have a 10-foot Type A to the north, a 10-foot Type B to the east, and a 15-foot Type B to the south and west. All of these buffers will be enhanced per the county requirements. Those enhancements will come in the form of not only more trees and palms in each buffer, but also larger plantings in terms of shrubs. February 13, 2025 Page 8 Here's your floor plan. These are the units that are along the waterfront to the west. You'll see you have a garage on the first floor. It opens up to a living room. Outside we have a covered lanai as well as a pool area. Above that, you see another lounge area, and you start to see some of those bedrooms, again, with another lanai. And on the third floor, you have a master suite, again, with a lanai. These are your eastern units. Different floor plans left to right. But essentially, you have your garage, small living area. Each one has a pool. Above that, you'll have your living room, kitchen, office, and another lanai, and above that on the third floor you have all your bedrooms. This is the street view facing west. So it's like you're standing on Arbutus Street. You see all four of the units there with the drive aisle in between. This is the courtyard view facing southeast. So again, Arbutus Street is on your left-hand side of the screen there. And this is the same courtyard view facing southwest. So down in this area is the water. And finally, we have the waterfront view from across the canal. At this point in time, I'd like to open up this to any questions staff may have, or public comment. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I just want to be clear about the docks. I mean, a question about that. So this is not -- is this anticipated to be requesting any variances or necessary variances for the dock extensions at all? MR. COPPER: No. It doesn't need a dock extension because we're not exceeding that 25 percent protrusion into the canal. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All February 13, 2025 Page 9 right. Okay. So this is pretty straightforward to me. And I see that you've done a lot of landscape enhancements to -- you know, there are neighbors on both sides, so it seems like you've done a good job with the landscaping to try to enhance that area. Why don't you reserve a little time for rebuttal, and let's go to public comment and see how that goes, okay? MR. COPPER: Absolutely. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Any public comment for this item? MR. SUMMERS: No registered speakers. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: No registered speakers, okay. Any online? MR. SUMMERS: No, sir. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Great. Thank you for that. All right. So I think this is pretty straightforward. It looks like a nice plan. I appreciate you doing the stormwater stuff and the impervious pavers. The -- I guess, you know, the buildings seem as though it's going to fit into the neighborhood. I notice there's some multifamily to the north of it. Those are older buildings. And -- let's see. Adequate parking, adequate access. Does anybody else from the county have -- anybody from the county have any questions? Any additional information I need? MR. BOSI: Nothing further from the county. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay, great. I will get -- I don't have any further questions. This is pretty straightforward. You've got some good plans here, so I will get a decision out as quickly as I can. February 13, 2025 Page 10 MR. COPPER: Thank you. I appreciate your time. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thanks a lot for being here. I appreciate it. Have a great day. MR. COPPER: Thank you. You too. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And have a Happy Valentine's Day, everybody, in advance. ***All right. We're going on to 3B. Hello again. MS. GUNDLACH: Good afternoon, Mr. Hearing Examiner, again. For the record, I'm Nancy Gundlach, Planner III in the Zoning division. Before you is Agenda Item 3B, Beeline at the Mercato, ABW-PL20240013533. This is a request for a minimum separation distance of 500 feet from other establishments that sell alcohol and derive less than 51 percent of their sales from the sale of food items. The subject property is located at 9115 Strada Place in Unit 5155 in the Mercato. The Beeline is located within 500 feet of three other establishments that sell alcohol and derive less than 51 percent of their sales from the sale of food items. The petition was reviewed by staff based upon review criteria contained within LDC Section 5.05.01, businesses serving alcoholic beverages. Staff finds this petition is consistent with the review criteria in the LDC as well as in the GMP. With respect to public notice requirements, they were compiled with -- complied with as per Section 10.03.06.H. The property owner notification letter and newspaper ad was taken care of by the county on Friday, January 28th, 2025. February 13, 2025 Page 11 And again, no public hearing signs are required at this type of petition on site. Staff recommends that the Collier County Hearing Examiner make a determination of approval, and that concludes staff's summary. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you, Nancy. Appreciate it. MS. GUNDLACH: You're welcome. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Is the applicant here? Yes, he is. So Nancy has to tell me there's no signs out there because I couldn't find them. So she reminds me. MR. YOVANOVICH: But you should have been able to see a big sign that said "Beeline." MS. GUNDLACH: Hearing Examiner, it was also in my notes. You didn't have to ask. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I know. MS. GUNDLACH: Because I thought it was exceptional as well. MR. YOVANOVICH: Good afternoon. For the record, Rich Yovanovich on behalf of the petitioner. Ben Klopp is here if you have any questions about how the Beeline will operate, and Margaret Emblidge is here if you have planning-related questions. I'll take you through a brief presentation -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. That would be great. MR. YOVANOVICH: -- and then open it up for any questions you may have. Since you were out there doing your site visit, the Beeline is on the corner, and you can see that it's a mixed February 13, 2025 Page 12 building that has, obviously, commercial on the ground floor with residential units on the top floor. The Mercato is a mixed PUD. It was approved back in 2005. It's a traditional "main street" type of layout with all kinds of commercial, restaurants, and bars within the mixed-use buildings. Then there is a portion of Mercato that is purely residential, but we're not in that portion. Go to the next slide, please. Mercato anticipates, in through its condo documents, informing anybody who lives there that this is supposed to be a mixed-use project. You can expect restaurants and bars to be within your building. So these are the provisions that are in the condominium documents that expressly let everybody know that this is going to be a place that, if you're looking for a quiet place to live, you should not live there, so to go somewhere else. The yellow is the entire PUD. I mentioned that there's a residential portion of it, and these are -- this is the residential portion back here. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yep. MR. YOVANOVICH: It's separated -- I know you've been out there. There's a large parking area right here that separates the building that we're in from the residential units that are in that residential portion of the PUD. We're requesting a waiver, as Nancy went through, for three businesses that exist: Cavo, Burn, and Blue Martini. And the next slide will kind of do a better job of telling you where each one is. I'm terrible with colors. That's Cavo, that's us, this is Burn, and this is Blue Martini. So you can see the separations for each of the businesses from where we are. February 13, 2025 Page 13 Next slide, please. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So is that directly across from where -- is it Bravo, the Italian restaurant? It's directly across from that? MR. YOVANOVICH: Right. That's where -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I got turned around a little bit. MR. YOVANOVICH: Yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. MR. YOVANOVICH: No worries. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. MR. YOVANOVICH: This is -- these are the statistics, if you will, for the project. It's a little under 4,000 square feet. Operating hours will be noon to 2 a.m., consistent with other establishments. Your agenda packet showed 2:30. It's actually -- it's actually 2 a.m. There will be some DJs and live acoustic music inside, but there are no outside speakers. There's enhanced construction between the ceiling of the restaurant all the way up to the floor of the residential units above. So there's been a lot of thought and care put into the construction of the establishment to assure that the residents who have been told there might be something downstairs will have minimal impact from our proposed project. This is a rendering of what's going to occur inside. They're spending a lot of money building out the rental space -- or the tenant space. And it's pretty far along. Their goal is to hopefully operate -- or open up at the end of March, early April. So if there's any chance to get a decision, assuming it's a positive decision, a little sooner, that would be fabulous. February 13, 2025 Page 14 Your staff is recommending approval of our request. And final slide. That's the distance request we're asking for. And again, that's a brief outline of what we're proposing. And the whole team is here to answer any questions you may have. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I just have a question, maybe you or for the county or whatever. Like, why wouldn't this have been taken care of during the PUD stage where they just say -- MR. YOVANOVICH: Interesting -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- "We acknowledge that this is a high-activity area. It's kind of like a downtown." MR. YOVANOVICH: It is. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Why wouldn't that happen? MR. YOVANOVICH: It was. It was all disclosed. I honestly thought initially that -- why do we even have to do this waiver? But staff said since it wasn't expressly -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Expressly. MR. YOVANOVICH: -- stated in the PUD that the waiver didn't apply. We had to come through with the waiver. MR. BOSI: And from staff's perspective, I was going to say it's probably something that we should have raised at the time. Staff nor the agent kind of put that specificity. But when you have a facility like this that is designed to have, you know, a number of different entertainment, restaurant, bars, it probably should have been, but we just -- we missed it at the beginning. February 13, 2025 Page 15 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: That's cool. It's fine. I just was curious because this -- it's kind of like Bayfront, right? You know, Bayfront's a high -- I mean, residential. I mean, you -- MR. YOVANOVICH: Exactly. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: There's a lot of intricacies trying to weave those two uses together. MR. YOVANOVICH: Right. And like Bayfront, everybody who buys in there is put on notice. That doesn't stop some people from -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Complaining. MR. YOVANOVICH: -- maybe complaining, but, you know, clearly they should have anticipated. And it's an allowed use throughout the entire PUD. And I wasn't the original attorney on it. I might have still -- I might have still made the wrong assumption. But, you know, we all learn as we go along in the process. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: No, I understand. And I do appreciate you put -- that being in the condominium documents, because I think that, you know, for a lot of these things, would resolve those issues ahead of time. But, you know, what happens is that, you know, things -- you know, businesses, unfortunately, sometimes don't succeed. MR. YOVANOVICH: Sure. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And then, you know, it was more of a passive restaurant or something and then it turns into more of a sports bar, which is not so passive, and activities. But ultimately, this -- you know, things like this, these mixed-use types of activities are -- MR. YOVANOVICH: Right. February 13, 2025 Page 16 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: There's lots going on at Mercato, and it was designed that way. MR. YOVANOVICH: It was intentional. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It was intentionally that way. To make it successful, it has to be that way. MR. YOVANOVICH: Right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: But -- okay. So here I am anyway. So here I am. MR. YOVANOVICH: It's good you're here. We're here. And if there's any public -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Let's see if there's any public comment here. Any public comment? MR. SUMMERS: No registered speakers. MS. BISCHER: I did not register. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Oh, I'm sorry. MS. BISCHER: Can I ask some questions? HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Come up on, yes, please. If you would, when you're done, if you could fill out a card and provide it in. MS. BISCHER: Absolutely. This is my first rodeo. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Oh, okay. No problem. I should have -- right here. You can use this one right here. I should have told everyone if you want to speak, fill out a speakers card. I apologize. MS. BISCHER: I'm not exactly sure how I got this job, but nevertheless. I am -- THE COURT REPORTER: State your name. MS. BISCHER: -- a resident of Mercato. I live in -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Your name and February 13, 2025 Page 17 address, please. MS. BISCHER: Oh, I'm sorry. My name is Ilene Bischer. B-i-s-c-h-e-r. Ilene, I-l-e-n-e. I'm a resident of Strada at Mercato, 9115 Strada Place, 5412. So, you know, I initially was really excited about this whole Beeline. You know, we're bourbon people. We were excited about having a higher end -- had been to the Beeline in Ohio, and -- but when they -- the whole process was a little -- little upsetting because when LJA sent their letter, they sent the letter with no information about a hearing. Now I heard you say that it wasn't required to have the information -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Well, there are notices. It's just the sign out on the property is not required for this particular -- MS. BISCHER: And the letter in the mail isn't required to let us know that there's a hearing? Was there a time and a date on it, Margaret? Whoever Margaret is. MS. EMBLIDGE: I'm Margaret. MS. BISCHER: Was it in the letter? It was not. I can give you a copy of it. I have it. Okay. And like I said, I'm not against it. My concerns are, I chose that building, along with the other people in the building, because there was no restaurant or bar in there. I can hear a little bit of the music and stuff outside, but it doesn't bother me. I knew what I was signing up for. I like that -- I love the environment. The comparables, no residential. There's no residential attached to any of those comparables, so it's hard for me to really consider them comparables. This is taking a strain on our community. There are 17 February 13, 2025 Page 18 units for sale, which seven of them have gone up for sale in the past 30 days. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So let me ask you a quick question. Give me your -- because you're speaking on behalf of yourself. You're not -- MS. BISCHER: No. We -- at the board meeting yesterday -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Wait, wait, wait. Are you a board member? MS. BISCHER: No. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Are you -- are you speaking on behalf of the association or anybody on the -- MS. BISCHER: Not -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Not officially? MS. BISCHER: No. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Because I just need to get this on the record. So for you, specifically, are you directly above this? Where do you live in proximity -- MS. BISCHER: No, no. I am not directly above it. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. BISCHER: My concerns -- and I just wanted to voice my opinion. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. BISCHER: Like I said, love the whole concept, but when I hear 2 a.m. and live music -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Uh-huh. MS. BISCHER: -- till 2 a.m., I don't -- that's -- that's hard for me swallow. And, you know, when I see that there's 17 units available and a few more coming on the market, it's February 13, 2025 Page 19 concerning to me. If there was a limit to what time that music was to, I would have no problem. And several of us -- one of the board members who, actually, I met with who was unable to be here today, he -- you know, he had tried to reach out to LJA to get some more information, and it was a little difficult for him. And so I said I would come today and say what I have to say, and that's it. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I appreciate you being here. Thank you. MS. BISCHER: Thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Anybody else signed up or not signed up? Anybody online? MR. SUMMERS: We do have one person online. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. We have another young lady in the back who didn't sign up but she wants to speak. If you could also -- both of you fill out speakers cards before you leave, please. Come on up. Hi. MS. HAYWARD: Thank you, Andrew, for listening to us. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you for being here. MS. HAYWARD: I'm actually the wife of the board member who couldn't be here today, and I live directly above where the gentleman is, like, being in charge of this. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So you'll be directly above? MS. HAYWARD: I will be. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Your name and address? February 13, 2025 Page 20 MS. HAYWARD: 5501, Elizabeth Hayward. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Thank you. MS. HAYWARD: 5501. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. MS. HAYWARD: And you've got the 9115. So I'm in the building directly above this gentleman's project. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: You have the unit right above? MS. HAYWARD: Yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So you're -- MS. HAYWARD: And I, too, I'm just -- I'm trying to not let this place turn into an overnight bar area. So we are very protective because we've got 92 door fronts. We've got a lot of great residents that we are literally just trying to be, you know, good stewards to them, and I think this is one of the things where I think people just come in and play their music, and they have no idea how loud it is. So going on the record, I would just say just -- you've got to be good stewards of the residents. And sometimes Mercato is about making money and not about the people that live there. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Great. So I think I can -- I'm trying to hone in on, like, the biggest issue for you would be -- MS. HAYWARD: Noise. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- the late-night noise? MS. HAYWARD: The late-night noise. February 13, 2025 Page 21 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Since you're going to be sharing -- MS. HAYWARD: The drunk people after hours. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- your floor -- I'm sorry. I broke your rule. Sorry. MS. HAYWARD: What's your rule? HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I spoke over you. MS. HAYWARD: That's okay. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Sorry about that. MS. HAYWARD: That's okay. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So you're going to share the ceiling and the floor. You'll be sharing that space, so -- okay. MS. HAYWARD: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. MS. HAYWARD: We just want people to be respectful of the residents that live there. And maybe we can come to compromises along the way, which would great because that's a Mercato thing. But we just need rules and regulations. And just so to know, there are 92 residents that live there. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. And you're there year round, I bet? MS. HAYWARD: Year round. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. One last question. How did you find out about this meeting? MS. HAYWARD: It was through my husband being on the board, and it was kind of a last-minute slipped-under-the-door kind of thing. I don't -- I mean, I February 13, 2025 Page 22 can't speak to that, but it was kind of a last-second -- and we were kind of surprised, actually. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. HAYWARD: I think it was through an attorney. Was it through this gentleman? MR. YOVANOVICH: (Shakes head.) MS. HAYWARD: It was through an attorney at the last minute, but we got it maybe a week ago. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. That's all I wanted -- MS. HAYWARD: So we would have been more prepared. I wish we had more people because I think people are kind of concerned and thoughtful. And like we're saying, there's no bars or anything underneath our building. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. HAYWARD: And we tried to keep that in the Cavo, Bravo -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: What was that space prior -- or prior -- MS. HAYWARD: It was a gallery, an art gallery. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: An art gallery. MS. HAYWARD: Bagley's (phonetic) Art Gallery. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Really rowdy place. MS. HAYWARD: Which -- yeah, really. When they left, I'm like (indicating). Like, one of my favorite art galleries. So it was just a really nice, lovely thing, and now it's going to be like -- and it might be a great place. So we're just trying to make sure that we can -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: The devil's in February 13, 2025 Page 23 the details. MS. HAYWARD: -- represent our people and make it -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you, Ms. Hayward. Thank you for being here. MS. HAYWARD: Appreciate it. Thanks, Andrew. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Don't forget to fill out a thing. MS. HAYWARD: I'll do that. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Anybody else? MR. SUMMERS: We've got one online. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay, great. Let's listen in. MR. SOSTARIC: Hello. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yes, sir. MR. SOSTARIC: Hello. Okay. Hi. My name is Joe Sostaric. And for the record, I have a unit at 9115 Strada Place, Unit 5512. So it's in the same building that the Beeline will be in. So I kind of want to -- first of all, I want to echo some of the concerns of the other residents that live here. I also attended the board meeting just as a participant, not as a board member, where this item was discussed. I can tell you that from my own personal experience, my unit, for example, I -- my wife and I had struggled with the noise coming from Cavo. Cavo is almost a football field away from us, so -- and I can tell you that my wife had made numerous calls to the Collier County Sheriff's Department to get them to turn the noise down, to turn their music down. And she would call -- my wife would wait until around 10 o'clock at night and call, and then around February 13, 2025 Page 24 10 o'clock she would call, and mysteriously the music was always turned down. And -- but unfortunately, the frustration we felt, it was like dealing with a petulant teenager, because here we had to call over and over and over and over again. And if we didn't call, the music stayed loud. Now you're talking about introducing a business directly below us and open till 2:30 -- 2:00, 2:30 in the morning. Now, mind you, they may stop having people there at 2:00, 2:30 in the morning, but it doesn't mean that the people just mysteriously vacate the whole place, because then you have to clean up. Then you have to -- there are people that live in the other building that have the restaurant below them, and they would have the workers cropping the door open and smoking right outside their door, or they bring in the people to clean the vents for the restaurants late at night doing this work. It is incompatible, in my mind, to what you're talking about with residential building right over top of it. And the mixture of alcohol late at night is going to cause noise concerns. And that's pretty much what I had to say about this. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir. I appreciate that. Anyone else? MR. SUMMERS: That's all we have. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Well, I'm going to close the public hearing portion of this. Okay. So we have a few things to work through. MR. YOVANOVICH: Sure. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I want to make February 13, 2025 Page 25 one statement -- just sort of a general statement, and I don't know how the county works through this or how they feel about this. But I've always been of the opinion that over-notification is never a bad thing; that, you know, one of the worst things to happen is if a case gets knocked around just on a due process issue, and that just doesn't help anybody. So I'm just wondering if you guys might want to think about, like, in these situations where -- especially like this where there are no, you know, signs required to be put out, it could be pretty easy just to tape up a sign on the window there. I don't know, do you guys speak internally about this? It sounds like the county met the letter of the law in terms of public notice. I don't know where there would be a distinction here, because this would be an easy one to at least be able to say, "There was a sign there up on the -- up in the window," and, you know, boom, that's it. So that's just my comment on that. Maybe you guys, during your staff meetings, can just chat about it. Because you're not breaking any laws by over-advertising something or putting a sign up on a window like that or something like that. I just don't like to hear people allege that they didn't know until yesterday. That's always frustrating for me. So, Mr. Yovanovich, you're very, very accustomed and familiar with these types of issues, I know. I'm almost positive you've dealt with noise problems and how to deal with them and whatnot, so -- MR. YOVANOVICH: Sure. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- let's have a conversation. MR. YOVANOVICH: I'm going to have -- we will. February 13, 2025 Page 26 I'm going to have Ben kind of tell you a little bit about how they actually do business. But let me -- let me address some of the general comments first, and then we can get into the specifics. As you and I initially talked about, this is a permitted use through the entirety of the PUD. Everybody who lives in this building -- everybody who lives throughout this community has the condominium documents that says, "There are going to be bars in your building." We're not asking for anything that wasn't anticipated by anybody who bought within this community. Also, this is another -- if you've driven by here, this is another mixed-use building with residents on top. This is Rocco's Tacos. Maybe you've eaten there; I have. It's open late. The only difference between Rocco's Tacos and us is Rocco's Tacos serves food. We won't be serving food. But it has entertainment. It stays open late and can stay open until 2, like every other establishment in this -- this community can stay open till 2. The difference between Cavo and Ben, when you hear from Ben, is we will not be that petulant child that ignores the residents. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Uh-huh. MR. YOVANOVICH: Ben has operated in many mixed-use buildings, and he's very responsive. I went through quickly the level of construction detail to make sure noise would not funnel its way up. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: We'll get to that. MR. YOVANOVICH: If you notice, I said there's no outdoor speakers. Things like that have already been baked February 13, 2025 Page 27 into the program so that noise should not be an issue. There's a noise ordinance. I know nobody ever really likes to hear that there's a noise ordinance, but we have to abide by that. But we did enhanced construction, so it should not be an issue. If there's an issue, Ben will address it, and we'll -- we'll take care of the noise, because we don't want people complaining. We want to be good neighbors. We expect they'll probably come down and hopefully enjoy -- different than Cavo and the others. We're not talking about -- we're talking about acoustical music. We're not talking about if you go to Blue Martini and the noise you can hear there and the other establishments. That's not what we're talking about. So we will be a good neighbor. The use is an allowed use. And, you know, I respect people having the right to come in here and speak, but you also have to respect the documents and what they signed up to live in, which was just because you bought in a -- in this community before a bar shows up doesn't mean a bar will never show up. But we want to address specifically -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah, just on that point, I'm just curious, does the condominium documents also have the flip side of that to the commercial tenants saying, "You're aware that there are residents here"? MR. YOVANOVICH: Well, yeah. I don't know, because these are the documents that are saying it's a mixed-use building, that there's going to be residents above you. So I would say you'd understand that by knowing where you're locating. I know that they understood that because it's an already existing building. It's not like you're buying into a building that's preconstruction. February 13, 2025 Page 28 But I think you're probably more interested in hearing from Ben and how he coexists. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yes. And before -- because I think he's got to put some competent substantial evidence on the record. But here's what I'm looking for is -- because this is my experience with these types of things, is that, okay, is there going to be any outdoor -- you don't have to answer these. I think he should. But I'm just going to prep him with these questions. Like, tell me what's going to happen outdoors. Tell me if anything -- like, you mentioned Rocco's Tacos. They have a roll-up window where they serve alcohol to people that are sitting outside. Is there going to be live music? And if it's live music, is it going to be amplified? Is it -- you know, things like that. And then finally -- and you touched on it in your presentation -- one of the things that I find are really good at solving these issues is kind of what you talked about already, which is, like, trying to put some layering between the cement slab that is there and everything else, and then also using a sound -- an expert sound engineer who knows how to use the right speakers, they know how to direct the speakers, they know how to control it, and also putting the volume thing in the hands of somebody that's got some responsibility -- MR. YOVANOVICH: Sure. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- instead of the DJ or something like that. MR. YOVANOVICH: Right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So those are February 13, 2025 Page 29 just some of the kind of questions I'd like to hear some answers to from your expert. MR. YOVANOVICH: He's the operator. Can you go to the slide that had the square footage. Is it Slide 9? Keep going. There you go. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: There it is. MR. YOVANOVICH: So, one, you can see we have the sound restrictions and attenuation. There's no outdoor speakers. The existing slab is 8-inch concrete. There's three inches of polyurethane foam sprayed under the slab. Then it drops down, and there's another -- there's an additional one and a quarter inch of insulation covering the foam, and then we have a drywall ceiling that's suspended through the space, except in the storage area, with six inches of Fiberglass batt. Again, I mean, we're talking significant construction-related sound attenuation to address concerns about our neighbors upstairs. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And that does reassure me, because I have been in places where they literally attach speakers that they probably got at, you know, Costco or something to the slab above, and then it just echoes -- it echoes through the residence. MR. YOVANOVICH: And that's not going to happen. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: That's a bad thing. MR. YOVANOVICH: But it's not going to happen. We look -- anyway. Let me have Ben -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. Let's have -- how are you, sir? All I know of you -- Ben. So you probably have a longer name than that. February 13, 2025 Page 30 MR. KLOPP: It's Benjamin Klopp -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. KLOPP: -- for the record. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And your title is? MR. KLOPP: I'm a managing partner for Entertainment Group. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: How long have you been doing this type of work dealing with these things? MR. KLOPP: I've been in this business for 27 years. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Twenty-seven years. Okay. MR. KLOPP: This is probably our eighth or tenth project in a mixed-use development. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Have you had to talk to someone like me about these issues before? MR. KLOPP: Not in this setting, but, you know, we deal with noise issues, and we're as proactive and as reasonable as possible. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. I see you as an expert. Thank you. MR. KLOPP: Thank you for seeing me that way. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So you heard my questions that I was asking Mr. Yovanovich, your attorney. So this is a little bit of a lawyer thing, but it's better that you put it on the record than Mr. Yovanovich puts it on the record. So you're an expert. MR. KLOPP: Sure. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Your lawyer makes legal arguments. So I want to hear a little bit more February 13, 2025 Page 31 about, operationally, tell me a little bit about the sound system, how you're going to protect the residents that are above you, especially that one. Any outdoor stuff? Any roll-up windows? Is this completely confined inside? Any out -- you know, outdoor dining? Well, there's no dining. So outdoor seating? Things like that. MR. KLOPP: Well, first I'd like to apologize for any perception of late notification. And while the letter did go out on January 15th, we could have put something in the window, in hindsight. Had we thought of it, we would have. So I apologize. MS. BISCHER: Thank you. MR. KLOPP: To help some of the fears, we're -- you know, Blue Martini and Cavo are ginormous places with stages and dance floors. We don't have a stage. You know, if -- by live music -- which we really haven't really decided yet -- it would be acoustic type happy hour stuff if we were going to do live music. We don't have a stage. We don't have a dance floor. And we're roughly a third of the square footage of a Blue Martini or a Cavo. You know, operationally -- we have a landlord representative here, Michael McLean. And when we signed the lease to come down here -- Mercato's owned by a company out of Cincinnati, Ohio, where we're based as well -- North American Properties. And we have other -- other operating -- other operations in North American Properties' properties. And they asked us to come down here because they don't have problems with us. We run very -- you know, as well as any operator can, you know, nice operations. And we always try to be -- you know, of course, we want to be cognizant of our neighbors, February 13, 2025 Page 32 you know, of course. You know, if you want to go back to the photo, I mean -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. I want to see this. This is great. This is exactly what I wanted you to put on. Thank you. MR. KLOPP: Yeah. I mean, we're -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: This looks like a lounge to me. MR. KLOPP: Yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It looks like you would have, like, ambient background music where people can talk to one another. MR. KLOPP: Yeah. I mean, it's -- I mean, it's not -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Can you speak into the microphone? MR. KLOPP: Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. It's -- it's a high-end -- it's a bar. We're -- you know, from the landlord, we're -- it's a viable -- it's a viable usage, but it's not the type of bar, as you can see, where -- you know, it's an upscale bar. The people sitting in this room are the clientele. So, yeah, do some of them stay till 1:30, 2 o'clock? I mean, maybe, but they're not -- there's no -- it's not a sports bar. It's not -- it's not -- there's no dance floor. You know, people may dance late at night, but it's not a booming Vegas nightclub. I mean, what you're seeing -- and that's pretty much -- I was just in there, you know, this morning. That's what it looks like, and that's the look, so... HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So February 13, 2025 Page 33 who's going to control -- so the music is going to come from where? Where's -- MR. KLOPP: Speakers. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And is that just going to be -- I know they don't call them DJs anymore, but music managers, I think, is what they're called. Because they don't have disks. Back in the day you all had records, you put on disks. But is there going to be someone like that, or is it just something you play? MR. KLOPP: Yeah. Well, we use a system called Control4 -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. KLOPP: -- where everything from the lighting to everything is managed by the manager. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. KLOPP: And to be honest, DJs anymore are more visual -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: That's why I said -- MR. KLOPP: -- than anything else. You're just adding to the people's mindset, "There's a DJ." But it's just all controlled electronically through Control4. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. KLOPP: As for the openings, we have two now, door openings, but they're the same openings that were in the previous art gallery, meaning in the same -- the art gallery didn't have the openings, but they're in the same -- we didn't expand. They're probably 10 feet across. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. KLOPP: We have two of them. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So they're February 13, 2025 Page 34 double doors that open up? MR. KLOPP: Yeah. Well, they're sliding -- they're like the nano systems. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Gotcha. MR. KLOPP: Yeah. And we can certainly -- that will help attenuate, you know, some sound. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. KLOPP: But we're not -- we're not nearly as noisy as a Cavo. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Any outdoor -- any outdoor music? Anything -- are you putting speakers outside at all? MR. KLOPP: No, there are no outside speakers. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. So now we're getting somewhere. All right. So -- and the person that's going to be in control of the volume, is that going to be the bartender or -- MR. KLOPP: No. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- is it going to be somebody with more responsibility? MR. KLOPP: Yes, it's a manager. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. KLOPP: We have managers on -- there will be a manager on site here always. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. KLOPP: I mean, maybe not always, always, but -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. KLOPP: -- any time after 9 o'clock, there is a manager on site. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: That's great to February 13, 2025 Page 35 hear. And your attorney probably knows why I'm asking all these questions. So is there going to be some kind of box where it can't be -- you know, let's say the manager's off doing something -- and, you know, you've seen those plastic boxes where people lock the thermostat, you know, where they can lock down, you know, to keep somebody from, you know, just cranking up the music. Let's say, hypothetically, after 2 a.m., employees are breaking everything down and they want to just rock out. MR. KLOPP: Well, figuratively, yes, but you're a couple tech generations -- you know, it's all on the manager's phone. So they don't -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Even better. MR. KLOPP: So there is no knob. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Even better. MR. KLOPP: It's on the phone. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And you know what, like, those amp -- the amp meters on are everybody's phone who live there, too, so they'll be able to read the amp readings. That's -- MR. KLOPP: And Bob -- so I do development. Bob does -- this is Bob Deck, my partner. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So would you like him to speak? MR. KLOPP: Well, he says there's a limit, yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Well, I mean, give me your full name, occupation, how long you've been doing this so I can get that in the record. MR. DECK: Sure. My name is Bob Deck. I'm one of the managing partners of Four Entertainment Group as February 13, 2025 Page 36 well. I mostly deal in the operations side. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. And you've done this for a while? MR. DECK: Same amount of time, since about 2001. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Twenty-plus. MR. DECK: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So you're an expert, okay. So do you understand the questions and why I'm asking these questions? MR. DECK: Yeah. I deal a little bit more with the sound. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. DECK: So in the -- just to protect our own sound system even, because we don't want DJs to come in or somebody to come in and just blow out our own sound system, we have a limiter that's in there that we set. So they can't push it beyond what we set it so that our -- we save our sound system as well. So that's one of the things that we do. We also, when we design the sound system, we're very cognizant of where that sound's going to go. So we will direct that sound, you know, from an engineer standpoint, to basically, like, the center of the room. It's pointing, you know, on angles down, you know, to limit anything that would be going up or even out. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So it looked to me -- like, in this, it looks like you've got decorative things on the ceiling. So I presume that maybe the speakers aren't really necessarily up there, or they're more -- like you said, they're on the walls or in the corners, like, directing it February 13, 2025 Page 37 towards the center. Is that a true statement? MR. DECK: That's correct. They're mostly on the walls in the corners, and then they're directing down towards the centers of the room. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. And did that -- did I get an answer on outdoor stuff? Like, there's no outdoor tables or -- MR. YOVANOVICH: There are some tables. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: There might be some tables outside? MR. YOVANOVICH: Yeah. I'll let them -- there's a -- I wish -- there's a -- there are two small areas where there could be some tables, but there's no outdoor amplification or any outdoor speakers. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And is that service or -- MR. YOVANOVICH: Service. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- just for people to come and sit? MR. DECK: That is -- it's a service area. There is -- there are a couple tables on the outside, and we would have a server serving those tables. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Until 2 a.m. in the morning? MR. YOVANOVICH: It's not like Rocco's Taco. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Is that going to stop earlier than 2 a.m., or is it going to go until 2 a.m.? MR. DECK: People would have the ability to sit there while we're open, yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All February 13, 2025 Page 38 right. MR. KLOPP: Just for full disclosure -- it's not built yet. We also have -- we're going -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Speak into the mic. MR. KLOPP: I'm sorry. Just in full disclosure, there's -- the landlord is going to give us two parking spaces to build a parking lot. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Oh, so you're going close those park -- that's bump-in parking spaces, to use those? MR. KLOPP: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. KLOPP: It's going to be part of their overall renovation when they -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I got it. MR. KLOPP: -- because they're going to remodel. Am I supposed to say that? It's public knowledge. They're going to redo that entire promenade area. And then we're going to do a small pergola. There's no outdoor speakers. There's no, just, amplification. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I know that Mercato has their own outdoor speakers. They're played in the landscaping. But I think what you're telling me is you're going to take over those two parking spaces that are parallel parking on the side, and that will open up the area for a few tables? MR. KLOPP: Well, we still -- we still have to keep the sidewalk -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Clear. February 13, 2025 Page 39 MR. KLOPP: -- clear for egress. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Right, okay. MR. KLOPP: So it can't just turn into a free-for-all. It would have to be -- it's a contained area in the pergola. We probably have maybe six tables. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. What about as a venue? Are you going to lease out the space for private events where they might bring in their own music and blow out your speakers? MR. DECK: We don't let any outside promoters come in and use our space or bring in any type of their own entertainment. It's all controlled by us. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And the doors, would the doors remain left open, or are you going to close them? Let -- open and close, or are you going to have them open at all times? MR. DECK: We always base that kind of on the weather and kind of what's going on. If there's a big event out in that green space, we may keep them open. I mean, it's really kind of dependent on just sort of the environment and what's happening. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. The reason I'm asking that is, obviously, for noise spillage. Like, it will spill out into that area. And I think the neighbors are mostly concerned with like late, late night, you know, like, as you get late. And also, I think there was a good question about, you know, when you -- and I've seen this, too. When you close your doors after 2 a.m., there's employees there that are going to be breaking things down, cleaning things up, and sometimes they can get a little bit rowdy. February 13, 2025 Page 40 MR. DECK: That's -- once again, that's automatically set so that it won't go on. It can't come -- you know, it can't go higher than what we set it at. You know, it's passcode protected, so no one can just go in and -- you know, at 3 a.m. and turn something up without us knowing. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Do you happen to know what the maximum decibels will be, by chance? MR. DECK: I do not. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. Because even that, there's -- sometimes there's a range with, like, the base versus non-base, things like that. MR. DECK: I agree. We've had times where we -- you know, again, they're kind of two -- there's the highs and lows of music. We've had to -- sometimes where the lows tend to travel. We've had to adjust the lows on different projects. And, again, we've always worked very well with our neighbors and who's been around the area. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Okay. So what about -- okay. So there's no stage. No official dance floor, but sometimes people might want to dance. You know, that's -- but it seems like it's more of a quaint area. It doesn't seem to be a sports bar because there are not TVs and things like that. Tell me about your relationship -- like, if you were to have an event or -- because frequently, like, what happens is that this -- you know, there might be Valentine's Day or the Super Bowl or something like that, and you'd throw an event. I mean, do you collaborate with the associations there? I don't even know what the association structures are there, but to sort of run that through them and give people an February 13, 2025 Page 41 opportunity to know about it? MR. DECK: Usually what happens -- full disclosure, we do have TVs in the space. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. DECK: But a lot of times the development itself has a marketing team, and they market different events that are going on in the development. So we will kind of attach ourselves to whatever those themes are. If there's a Christmas tree lighting, for example, we'll, you know, have a Christmas party or, you know, things like that that people are going to come to the development for anyway, so we just kind of tie into that. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. And maybe this is for Mr. Yovanovich or the county. And I -- and if I do approve this, you know, obviously I would want you to succeed and succeed well and, you know, be cognizant of your neighbors. But in the -- in the unfortunate chance that you don't succeed, does this approval run with the land, and does -- can some other type of use come in and use -- and do something without us knowing about it? So you know what I'm saying? MR. YOVANOVICH: I understand. My understanding is it's for these operators. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. YOVANOVICH: And it's -- if 30 years from now when they decide to hang it up and retire and someone wants to come in and do something different, they'd have to go through this same process. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. I'm not trying to bring bad luck on you. MR. YOVANOVICH: No, I know. February 13, 2025 Page 42 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I'm just saying I've seen nice restaurants turn into sports bars, and that's a big different operation. MR. YOVANOVICH: Sure. Right. But no, it's for this -- it's for this facility, this operation. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So it's attached to -- MR. YOVANOVICH: And we have these conditions, you know. So those are going to be -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Associated with your client? MR. YOVANOVICH: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And this operation. MR. YOVANOVICH: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So -- and if it were to change, then it would have to come back, and we'd have to reevaluate it with -- because conditions need to be established based on what you're presenting -- MR. YOVANOVICH: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- as your operations procedures. MR. YOVANOVICH: Right. And, again, unlike Cavo, they're going to be available. Their managers are going to be available if there are issues that can occur. You know, we'll be -- it's kind of hard to say this in a tactful way, but we want to be good neighbors, but if there's that one person who's hypersensitive -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah, I get it. MR. YOVANOVICH: -- we're just going to have to February 13, 2025 Page 43 agree to disagree. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah, I understand that. I'm just really hypersensitive about the person that's going to be right over the top of you. MR. YOVANOVICH: Sure. But -- and again -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I know. Everybody knows it's -- MR. YOVANOVICH: No. But if we were -- if we were serving food, we wouldn't even be talking to you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I get it. MR. YOVANOVICH: So if we were Rocco's Tacos, we could stay open till 2 o'clock, and I'm pretty sure Rocco's Tacos is not selling a whole lot of food after a certain period of time. What I'm saying is we're different. We're taking -- we took this seriously and spent a lot of money with sound attenuation because we had a concern. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I get it. And I appreciate the testimony that your clients put on, because it does sound like it's going in the direction that in the past -- because even as a private attorney, I've represented people with issues like this, and they can be solved. I know -- MR. YOVANOVICH: Of course. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- they can be solved with proper signage -- sound engineering -- MR. YOVANOVICH: Sure. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- things like that. But I just don't want to see -- I just want to make sure we work through all these issues now so that it's contained and controlled and everybody knows what the rules are and February 13, 2025 Page 44 it doesn't creep into something else. MR. YOVANOVICH: And we are just as interested in that. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I know you are. MR. YOVANOVICH: Because we want -- we want -- obviously, they're showing you they're experienced operators in multiuse buildings and have taken thought into how to address those concerns. And I know that the people who are here don't know until they hear it during the presentation. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So here's another thing that I've seen as helpful, and it's almost just a communication thing. So whoever your manager is or your top person that's going to be there, providing that phone number to whoever is at the homeowners association so that you're not bothering Code Enforcement to come out, because that never works. Code Enforcement, by the time they get there, they -- they have to do all this stuff, and by the time that happens, the noise goes down. It's hard on the people that have to respond to those calls, and sometimes it's unnecessary. If, you know, the operator of the bar and -- has given their number to the people that are most affected and they can say, "Oh, okay, great. Gotcha. You know, we'll take care of it right now." And that's always been a good addition to these types of things to take care of it. And I would assume that those -- I don't know, but I'm assuming that the residents have impact windows that are -- that should be, you know, more soundproof than others, but I don't know that for sure. February 13, 2025 Page 45 MR. YOVANOVICH: I don't either. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I would think -- they're new construction, fairly new -- MS. BISCHER: We do. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- so I would think that they have impact windows. All right. So -- okay. Stage, dancing. There will be tables outside, you're planning tables outside with service, but no speakers outside. Doors may or may not be open. Somebody with responsibility is going to have it on the phone so that someone can't just unilaterally do a no-no. MR. YOVANOVICH: Turn it up. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah, yeah. That's old technology, right? It doesn't happen anymore. MR. YOVANOVICH: It was nice to hear someone else in this same room is behind in technology. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I tend to embarrass myself quite a bit. All right. All right. Okay. I don't have any other questions. Does the county have any questions about this? MS. GUNDLACH: No. MR. BOSI: No. And what I would say, in relationship to the confusion that was about the neighborhood information meeting notice and then the public notice, the code only requires that the applicant provide a mailed notice to individuals within 500 feet of the establishment, and then it requires a newspaper advertisement. So the public notice of -- that this hearing was going on was not -- is not required by our code so, therefore, they wouldn't have gotten a second letter. The only way they February 13, 2025 Page 46 would have been notified is if they would have saw it on the Clerk's website, so -- and that's an issue that I think we need to internally talk about in terms of providing more robust public notice in terms of direct mailings for these types of activities. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I get it. And I appreciate you guys having that conversation because, again, you know, I just believe in over-notice. Get it over with at the hearing, get it all out, address all the issues so that, you know -- you know, everything's clear, and you don't want to have to go back and say, "Well, that was never asked, and we didn't know about that." Okay. I don't have any further questions for you-all. I will get a decision out. I understand the urgency. One way or the other -- I want to thank the residents for being here, taking the time out to be here today. I appreciate the information. I want you to know that, like, I have dealt with this not only as a Hearing Examiner but also serving as city attorney in certain places and also as a private attorney representing people on these issues. So it's not something that I'm unfamiliar with. So I'm very sensitive to how these things work. I'm not saying -- I want businesses to succeed, and I also want your property values to be going up so that you're feeling good and your quality of life is good. It looks like the Mercato is making changes in the whole outside area, and it's starting to look like the 2.0 Mercato and looks pretty good to me so far. So hopefully that neighborhood -- it's also a neighborhood -- succeeds, and everybody succeeds. So I've got a lot to think about. I really appreciate February 13, 2025 Page 47 your clients giving me the 411 on everything they know. They look like they're straight-up people and they know what they're talking about, and they've probably heard a lot of this stuff before. So thank you for being here. Thank you for your participation. Before I close, do you guys have anything, Ray? You're chitchatting away over there. MR. BELLOWS: For the record, Ray Bellows. I was just mentioning that we had three other distance waivers approved in this PUD. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: That's a good question, yeah. Okay. So those were -- I didn't do those, so I don't know if they were as fun as this, but who knows. This is a topic that I'm familiar with. Okay. Beeline, why Beeline? Is that, like, a reference to a subway or something? MR. KLOPP: We opened the first one in Columbus, Ohio, and then we're based in Cincinnati, Ohio. There used to be a train line from Cincinnati through Columbus to Cleveland called Beeline. It just seemed like a -- our marketing people liked it. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. It has nothing to do with bees. Okay, good. MR. KLOPP: Nothing to do with bees. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm going to close this hearing. Again, thank the neighborhood -- the neighbors for being here. I appreciate it. It was good information. We have one more, right, 3C -- MR. BELLOWS: Yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- as in February 13, 2025 Page 48 "Charlie," let's let the room filter out. Let's give it one second. Let these folks filter out. You all have a nice day. Happy Valentine's Day. ***Okay. We're ready for 3C, as in "Charlie." Bye, Nancy. MS. GUNDLACH: Bye. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Hi, Sean. MR. SAMMON: Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Mr. Dickman. For the record, Sean Sammon, Planner III in the Zoning division. Before you is Agenda Item 3C. It's for a Site Plan with Deviations for redevelopment Project No. PL20240003066. This is a request for you to approve a Site Plan with Deviations pursuant to the LDC Section 10.02.03.F for a deviation from the LDC Section 4.06.02.C.4 to reduce the required 10-foot Type D buffer along Davis Boulevard to five feet along a portion of the northern property line in the location shown on the Site Plan with Deviations exhibit for the development of the subject property, which is approximately 0.58 point -- excuse me -- 0.85 acres located at 3300 Davis Boulevard, Naples, Florida, 34112, at the southeast corner of the intersection of Airport Road and Davis Boulevard in Section 12, Township 50 South, Range 25 East, Collier County, Florida. The petition was reviewed by staff based upon review criteria contained within the LDC Section 10.02.03.F.7, a through j, and staff believes this petition is consistent with the review criteria in the GMP; however, Landscape Review found that the request is inconsistent with the LDC Review Criteria e, f, and J. With respect to public notice requirements, they were February 13, 2025 Page 49 complied with as per LDC Section 10.03.06.R. The property owner notification letter and newspaper ad were taken care of by the county on Friday, January 24th, 2025, and the public hearing signs were placed by staff on Wednesday, January 29th, 2025. The CRA Advisory Board met on February 6th -- Thursday, February 6th, 2025, and their approval decision is included in the attachment distributed to you prior to this item. I received one phone call in opposition to this petition. Due to staff not agreeing with the applicant regarding justification for the deviations request and inconsistency with Review Criteria e, f, and j, staff recommends that you deny this petition as described in accordance with the staff report. That concludes staff's presentation. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you, Sean. I appreciate it. MR. SAMMON: You're welcome. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And I did see the sign, so thank you. Come on up, good afternoon. MS. FRANTZ: Good afternoon. My name is Jem Frantz with RVi Planning and Landscape Architecture. I'm a -- I've been a planner for over 10 years here in Southwest Florida. I've been with RVi Planning and our predecessor company, Waldrop Engineering, for over four years now -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yep. MS. FRANTZ: -- and was previously also within the Zoning division here at Collier County -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. February 13, 2025 Page 50 MS. FRANTZ: -- for shy of eight years. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And you've presented in front of me before. MS. FRANTZ: I've presented here before as well. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I remember you, yes. MS. FRANTZ: I have a degree in urban regional planning from University of Florida. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I think you're an expert then. MS. FRANTZ: So I have -- I do have a landscape plan set that I intend to submit into the record -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. FRANTZ: -- that's modified from what's in your staff report. We'll get into that -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. FRANTZ: -- later. Next slide. With me today, we have Roger Keaton and Mike Duffy representing the applicant; Brent Addison with Atwell, our engineer; and Greg Diserio with DMJ, our landscape architect. The property that we're looking at you're probably very familiar with, and you said you've been to the site as well. It's just shy of one acre. It's right there at the intersection of Davis Boulevard and Airport Road surrounded on two sides by the Home Depot and the Home Depot parking lot. To the north is the pharmacy. On the other side of the intersection is the Porsche dealership and a used-car dealership; surrounded entirely by C-4 or C-5 zoning. There's no abutting residential to the property. February 13, 2025 Page 51 You can see there the base zoning of the property is C-4. It's also within the Gateway Triangle zoning overlay as well. So we started this process with a Site Development Plan. Car washes are a permitted use in the C-4 zoning district, and during that site development review, it determined that a deviation was required. Submitted the Site Plan with Deviations application to the Zoning division, and through that process, we've whittled the request down to just a single deviation request for reduction in the width of the buffer on the north property line. Again, it's a permitted use, so it's not an issue of whether the car wash is permitted or allowed in this area but simply the deviation request. Next slide. And that's just, like, a great time to take a moment to talk about the Site Plan with Deviations process. It's a somewhat new process just before I started here with the county. It actually was created to incentivize redevelopment in the urban area. A lot of sites might be impacted by taking or just a passage of time makes this site more difficult to redevelop, and we want to bring new uses, updated uses into the urban area, and so this process is intended to provide some flexibility for those kinds of situations for dimensional requirements, specifically, like landscaping, parking, buffers where it's not necessary to rezone the property and go through a hearing typically, but there's some element of the site that requires a deviation. So I won't read through the entire applicability February 13, 2025 Page 52 section -- that's there on the screen now -- but it pretty clearly identifies that as long as you are able to qualify for a site development plan, you can apply for the Site Plan with Deviations process, and it takes a pretty broad view of what redevelopment is. It includes redevelopment, reuse, renovation of the site in whole or in part, so a pretty broad view of redevelopment as well. Next slide. This particular site has a pretty long history. Starting back in 1965, Davis Boulevard, on the north side of the property, was widened. There was a taking action as a result of that widening. Then, in 1996, a conditional use was approved that allowed for an automotive rental and leasing use. The aerial is from 2007 but shows that same use still. You can see on the aerial that it actually allowed for two access points on Davis Boulevard and a single access point on Airport. All three of those points are -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Right here, right here, right here. MS. FRANTZ: Exactly, ingress and egress. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Did you say there was automotive? Because I thought it was a restaurant. MS. FRANTZ: We'll get to the restaurant. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: You'll get to that. All right. Thanks. MS. FRANTZ: Yeah. But, yeah, before the restaurant use -- it started as this rental leasing. You can see outdoor storage of vehicles. Not a lot of landscaping provided. Next slide. February 13, 2025 Page 53 Moving into the 2011/2012 time frame, it changed to a restaurant use, like you said. It was a reuse of that building, so you still see the general -- same general layout of the building with an awning oriented north to south. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So they have one -- MS. FRANTZ: The redevelopment of this site did include some revised parking areas, increased buffers. You can see the buffer area along Airport Road to the west of those parking spaces. You can see some of the plantings on the north side of the property as well. This site plan did close one of those access points on Davis Boulevard, the one that was closest to the intersection, but retained the other two. Next slide. Then in the 2019/2020 time frame, Airport Road was also widened. You can see the site is the same here, but along the western property line, there's a red line. That's the new property line. And you can see that that widening has taken the portion of the property that previously included a buffer. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So they did an imminent domain to widen the road? MS. FRANTZ: Right. So at that time the site was no longer in compliance with buffering requirements on that side of the property. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. FRANTZ: Next slide. That brings us to today. We -- our proposed site plan allows for a 4,270-square-foot car wash with vacuum stations. You can see -- I, unfortunately, misplaced my February 13, 2025 Page 54 pointer, but on the north side of the property -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: By all means. MS. FRANTZ: Thank you. Okay. So the new site layout -- in addition to a car wash, a new use, we're proposing some new site layouts. On the north side of the property, the access has been moved to the east as far as that could be pushed. It's also become an ingress only. Once vehicles enter from the north, they'll have the option to take an immediate right -- and over here are the vacuum stations -- or enter one of the queues for the car wash, travel through the car wash, and end up exiting the car wash in a north direction. And the only way to get out of the car wash would be to take a left. So that car wash, the queue, and that turning action is what ultimately results in the need for the impact to that buffer area. Looking more generally at the site still, once they -- once they exit the car wash, they're through the vacuum stations, they'll exit the site on Airport. This is a right-out only. Again, the access point that's currently on the property is a little bit more to the north. This has been pushed further to the south. So both of these access points are further away from the actual intersection, and the turning movements are limited, which is beneficial for safety for vehicles as well as pedestrians in this area. You'll see on this site plan we do include a 10-foot Type D buffer along the west property line. That is the area that the buffer had been taken from Airport widening. On the south and east property lines, we have 5-foot Type A buffers. February 13, 2025 Page 55 In the north area, we do have a 10-foot Type D buffer for a portion of the north boundary until that impact area occurs. Down to the south, we have stormwater, solid waste. And this site plan complies with all site development requirements in the LDC with the exception of where we're requesting a deviation. And on this -- on this site plan, you see the crosshatched area. That is where we're impacting the buffer area, so there it goes down to a 5-foot Type D buffer. We're also providing this hatched area, which is our mitigation area for additional plantings to make up for that impact to the buffer. Next slide. These are some example elevations of the -- primarily demonstrating the look and feel of the building, the site layout. Those were created before the landscape plan was created, and so it's not showing you the correct plantings are there, but generally, you can see this is a view from the north looking south, both of these are, and the -- it looks like doors here but -- on this rendering, but that's where the vehicles would exit the car wash, and then they would be making a left out of the car wash. Next slide. Again, just a closer view demonstrating that the impacted buffer area is 348 square feet. The mitigation area is 408 square feet. So we are providing an increase in planting area along the north property line right there at the intersection. And I think, with that, I'm probably going to bring up Greg Diserio, our landscape architect, to talk through our landscape plan. While he's coming up, I'll hand out our February 13, 2025 Page 56 revised plan. We did provide this to staff last week and talk through, but it was after the staff report came out, so... HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Fine. Very good. How are you, sir? Can you give me a little bit of -- your name, title, experience with this type of thing. MR. DISERIO: Yes. Good afternoon. My name is Greg Diserio. I'm the vice president, landscape architect with David M. Jones, Jr., and Associates out of Fort Myers. I have been a registered practicing landscape architect for over 40 years in Southwest Florida, predominantly Lee, Charlotte, Collier Counties. I have done many projects here in Collier County. And I do have a brief résumé with me if you want it on file. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I don't think that's necessary. I mean, you can put it in the record. Why don't we just put it in the record. But I'll recognize you as an expert. MR. DISERIO: I appreciate that. Next slide, please. What we're showing you here on this slide is just the northern area where the deviation is requested. As you can see, we -- this has been adjusted since the last round of comments through development staff. One of the last comments they had was the spacing of trees along the north -- north buffer. We have shifted around some lighting and added some trees to comply with the space -- minimum spacing requirements on the trees. The trees are to be no more than 30-foot on center. As you can see here, we're a lot tighter than that. We are providing more trees and shrubs than what is February 13, 2025 Page 57 required, not only in quantity, but also in size. What's out there -- what was out there on site previously was some palms, which provide little, if any, actual buffering. We're proposing using native, you know, mid-size canopy trees to help with the buffering in this particular area. Next slide, please. Again, this is the photo of what was there previously. You can see there's palms along there. They had five trees. We've proposed six trees in this particular area with even a seventh tree off to the right. And, again, we're proposing using a canopy tree which provides a better actual buffer than a palm tree does. Next slide, please. That's just a photo of what was there. Not much of a buffer. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah, there it is. MR. DISERIO: As you can tell. Next slide, please. As was mentioned, the impacted area was -- where we're reducing down to the 5-foot is 348 square feet, and we're providing 408 square feet of compensation area as required by your LDC. So we're providing more area than what's required. The shrubs on this northern are larger than expected -- or anticipated -- I'm sorry -- larger than required. We're providing, you know, a double hedge row across the entire front. We are not reducing any actual planting requirements. We're literally just eliminating the turf that would be in a buffer. The trees that we are proposing are also larger in size, February 13, 2025 Page 58 initially, going in the installation. Next slide. And I'll turn this back over to Jem. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. MS. FRANTZ: So -- actually, could we go back one slide? I just want to do one quick summary discussion. So we'll talk through the requirements, the standards for approval in the next few slides, but I just want to highlight that in addition to going above and beyond what the code would require in terms of planting area, we are also including more plantings of trees and shrubs than would be required by the code and also planting them at taller heights than would be required by the code, and then also including that additional planting area. So when you look at that previous aerial, the enhancement is not only over the code requirements -- above and beyond the code requirements, but also beyond what was there previously. That buffering was pretty minimal. Okay. So next slide. There was some -- oh, sorry. There was one other point I wanted to make about that. In the staff report, there was some discussion about not meeting the landscape requirements and the tree spacing. That was the impetus for the revised landscape plan that we've submitted, and that does demonstrate compliance with all of the code minimum planting requirements. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Let me ask Sean a question real quickly. So you did review the new revisions, right? MR. SAMMON: (Nods head.) February 13, 2025 Page 59 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And was your recommendation presentation that you gave, was that based on including having looked at the revisions and everything like that? MR. SAMMON: That would still be prior to the revisions. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So do the revisions change any of your opinions or anything like that? MR. SAMMON: Staff still recommends denial just primarily for the -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: The three -- MR. SAMMON: Yeah, the justification on the criteria. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Thank you. I just wanted to figure that one out. MS. FRANTZ: So perfect segue to this slide. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. MS. FRANTZ: The three criteria we'll get into really specifically, but I wanted to look at the building length here. So we -- in the staff report, there is some mention of other car washes. An analysis of other car washes, other similar buildings is not a part of the standards for approval, but I understand, you know, staff is going to look for compatibility. And I think, you know, what I want to point out here is that on the left-hand side you see a survey of the restaurant use, Joey D's. That awning was located 26 feet from the right-of-way, from the property line. And although we do have a larger building -- a larger car wash than some other car washes in the area, the building is set back further than February 13, 2025 Page 60 the previous use was. So I think just an important point to point out, that for the public, for folks traveling in that right-of-way, they're going to notice, although we have a shorter buffer width, that the building is set back further, and we actually have better buffering than was previously provided, you know, thinking back to that previous use. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So a question about the building. The length is longer than most car washes. What's different about this car wash that requires it to be bigger? MS. FRANTZ: I don't know if it's longer than most car washes. It's longer than the car washes that were provided by staff. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. FRANTZ: But this is the Snappy Car Wash prototype. It's a newer car wash company. It's a newer car wash building. It provides a little bit more services. It's just a different car wash than other car washes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Do you know if this is a franchise? MS. FRANTZ: It's a franchise, yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So they come with a prototype of -- MS. FRANTZ: Exactly. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- what has to go on the ground? And that's, in part -- is the length of the building north and south, the car wash building, is that, in part, what's causing the need for the deviation? MS. FRANTZ: That's part of it. Like I mentioned, the -- you know, the building itself is set back, meeting the February 13, 2025 Page 61 minimum requirements. It's because of the building length, then, when the cars turn out, that turning motion as well impacts the buffer. But yeah, building length is the reason, yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Part of it. Okay, thank you. MS. FRANTZ: Did we answer all -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah, yeah. No, you answered it. The only reason I asked about the franchise part is because generally they -- when you join a franchise, they give you the model. They tell you, "Here's what you've got to do." So it's not like you're in complete control over the design and -- you know, in order to -- it's more complicated than just owning your own car wash. MS. FRANTZ: Yeah. And I know there's concern about the length of the building and the need for the deviation, but I think that -- you know, going back to the beginning of the presentation, that is the point of the Site Plan with Deviations process so that as these old sites, sites that have been developed and used for many, many, many years, are redeveloped. We need to find ways to fit newer uses on them. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I couldn't agree with you more. That's the whole point of this hearing is to be able to walk through some of these issues. MS. FRANTZ: Right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Right. Okay. MS. FRANTZ: Okay, next slide. So now the really fun part of the presentation. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Go forward. MS. FRANTZ: I'm just going to walk through all of February 13, 2025 Page 62 these standards for approval. So in 10.02.03.F.7, there's a number of standards for approval. A requires us to look at the land use, the densities, and be consistent with the approved -- permitted and any approved conditional uses in the zoning district. The car wash is not relying on that 1996 conditional-use approval. It's just a permitted use in the C-4 zoning district. We are consistent with that standard. B is requiring consistency with the Growth Management Plan. I won't read the analysis in our submittal. The staff report agrees we're consistent with the GMP Future Land Use Element Policies 5.5, 5.6, 5.7, and 7.1 and with conservation -- with CCME Objectives 6.1 and 7.1. Next slide. C requires that the development shall have a beneficial effect both upon the area in which it is proposed to be established and upon the unincorporated area as a whole. We've kind of talked through all these different elements. So a quick summary of how we demonstrate compliance with this standard. It is a more productive use of the property in redeveloping the site from that previously reused building. We are improving the access locations, traffic and pedestrian circulation, and safety through the moving and adjusting the access -- the character of those access points. We're improving the buffer plantings over the buffer that was taken from the Airport Road widening and over the requirements in the code for the north buffer, even while we're requesting a deviation. We're enhancing -- through those enhancements, we're February 13, 2025 Page 63 enhancing landscaping at a really key intersection for the county and also for the CRA, the Bayshore CRA. We're, through the redevelopment of the site, bringing it up to the current architectural and site development standards. So that -- I've been to that restaurant. It was a nice restaurant, but it was an old reused building, and it looked that way. And so this redevelopment of the site will really change the character of that site. We're -- again, we're locating new development in a previously developed, previously impacted urban area rather than greenfield development. So we do believe we're consistent with this standard. Next slide. Standard D is that the total land area within the development and the area devoted to each functional portion of the development shall be adequate to serve its intended purposes. I mentioned that we are consistent with all of the site development standards in the Land Development Code. We're, through the deviation, ensuring that there's adequate area for the circulation of vehicles on the site. We're balancing pedestrian access, vehicle use areas, and buffer requirements through, you know, all of these different changes and only needing really that one deviation. So we believe we're consistent with this standard as well. The next slide is e. This is one of those sections that we're in disagreement with staff. It's says streets, utilities, drainage facilities, recreation areas, sizes and yards, architectural features, vehicle -- vehicular use -- vehicular parking and loading facilities, sight distances, landscaping and buffers shall be appropriate for the particular use involved. February 13, 2025 Page 64 Again, I know I'm beating a dead horse repeating myself, but we are in compliance with all LDC requirements for Site Development Plans except where this deviation is requested. We are providing buffers on all four sides of the property, including where we've impacted the buffer width, and we're providing all of the code required -- code minimum requirements for buffers in that area. So incorporating trees and shrubs and, again, looking back in time, better buffer capacity through the canopy trees rather than palms. We're offsetting that deviation through additional buffer planting area, total area, additional plantings, and enhancement of those plantings. So we do believe that we're consistent with this standard for approval. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So based on all of that, it's your professional opinion that you're consistent with this criteria? MS. FRANTZ: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. FRANTZ: Next slide. F, again, another one that we're in disagreement with staff. This one requires that the visual character of the project shall be equal or better in quality than that required by the development standards for the zoning district. I'll stop there. We do demonstrate compliance with the buffering. Requirements for the number of trees, spacing of trees, number of shrubs, we're actually exceeding those numbers. We're enhancing the height of those shrubs and trees, and we're providing for more area of planting. We think we're consistent with that part of the February 13, 2025 Page 65 approval -- standard for approval. The next portion is the visual character of the project shall be better in quality than the existing project before redevelopment and after it was first permitted. And I put those two images that we saw on previous slides back up on the screen here because I think it reinforces. You can see the difference in the number of palm trees and the spacing of those palm trees versus the six trees that will be located here, the character of those trees being more of a canopy tree, more something that will screen the property versus -- we saw that slide of Joey D's with palms and some low shrubs. So we also think we're consistent with that portion of the standard as well, looking at both the current code requirements and looking at the previous use of the property. Next slide. G is really simple, requiring common ownership and subject to reliable and continuing maintenance guarantee. The property's under single ownership by the applicant. We're consistent with that standard. H is that deviations shall be clearly delineated in the petition and shall be the minimum required to achieve the goals of the project and comply with these standards. The deviation is identified clearly on the Site Plan with Deviations exhibit. That's your Attachment B in your package. And the request is limited only to impacts to the northern buffer. So we believe we're consistent with H as well. Next slide. I is that -- requires that the petitioner has provided enhancements to the development. I am repeating myself February 13, 2025 Page 66 again in all of this, but we'll go through the steps. We've provided access and safety improvements. We've restored buffering on all sides of the property. We have the building, although it is longer than other car washes, is set back further from the property line than previous structures. The project complies with -- will comply with all updated architectural and site design standards except where we're asking for this buffer deviation. And the visual character is better in quality than the existing project prior to the development, so we are consistent with that standard as well. Next slide. J is the third standard that was mentioned by staff. It requires that approval of the deviation will not have an adverse effect on adjacent properties. So in summary, the use itself is permitted in the C-4 zoning district. There's no abutting residential development that we would typically, like, really be concerned about compatibility with car washes. The deviation, although we're asking for a shorter width, we do still provide plantings in that area. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So let me ask you a question, because this one talks about adjacent properties. And I've always -- this has been something I've always, my whole career, I think there's a difference between abutting properties and adjacent properties. Abutting properties are the ones that you share a property line with, but I think -- I believe adjacent properties are in the general area. Do you agree with that or not? MS. FRANTZ: I agree that they are different definitions. In Collier's code, there are two separate February 13, 2025 Page 67 definitions for "abutting" and "adjacent." HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. FRANTZ: I used the term "abutting" here. There are some standards in Section 5.05 for car washes that are abutting residential. But yeah, I guess to your point, thinking about compatibility or an adverse effect on adjacent properties -- could we go back to one of the first slides that shows the area? This won't be a super clear site. Further back. The first introductory slide. Yeah, that one right there. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. MS. FRANTZ: So you can see that on the south and -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. MS. FRANTZ: -- east of the property, that's the Home Depot. We're shielded from any residential over in this area by the Home Depot. To the north, these are all commercial buildings as well. So the northwest, that's the Porsche dealership, a number of commercial uses along both Davis and Airport. And over here there is some residential, but again, shielded from us by both the right-of-way and commercial uses along Airport Road. So we wouldn't meet -- we wouldn't meet a definition of abutting residential either. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I mean, this is -- MS. FRANTZ: I'm sorry. I said "abutting," but I meant adjacent. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I knew what you meant. I knew exactly what you meant, but yeah, thanks for correcting that. This is an extremely intense intersection. I mean, February 13, 2025 Page 68 commercial on every single corner. I get what you're saying. I understand that. But I do think that this standard for me applies to, you know, that general area. Of course, it applies to Home Depot. I mean, you share -- but I think you have to look at -- but this clearly to me seems to suggest that this is intended for intense commercial activity, and it's intense. MS. FRANTZ: But we can -- we can take that viewpoint of looking at kind of generally adjacent residential, and I think we'll still demonstrate compliance with that standard. If we could go back to that original slide. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I gotcha. Approval of the deviation will not have an adverse effect on adjacent properties, okay. MS. FRANTZ: It was j. So, yeah, again, we're still meeting the requirements for buffering. The only difference in our property from -- or this development, if we did not need a deviation, is that that buffer along the north would be five feet wider. So any impact of having a permitted use on this property, I think, is mitigated by all the enhancements that we're providing. So, again, my professional opinion, that we're consistent with this standard for approval as well. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. MS. FRANTZ: Next slide. We did go and meet with the Bayshore/Gateway Triangle CRA local redevelopment advisory board at one of their regular public meetings last week. That's not a requirement of this application type, but we still went down there and gave a similar presentation to them. They did February 13, 2025 Page 69 make a recommendation of approval. That was approved unanimously. They specifically -- a couple of them specifically mentioned the planting types that we've proposed; that they thought that that would be a benefit to the community. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: How big is the CRA area? I'm not familiar with it. How -- generally how -- maybe the county knows, but east/west, how far does it go? MS. FRANTZ: In this area, it goes pretty far and encompasses, like, kind of the whole triangle of Davis, U.S. 41, and Airport. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Gotcha, okay. So it will go all the way to 41, up to 41, to Davis, and back down, okay. MS. FRANTZ: Yeah. And then on the east side of Airport where we're located, it -- I don't have the map up, but it's our property, maybe the Home Depot as well. It doesn't go too far to the east. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So you guys are on the border of the CRA? MS. FRANTZ: It does go down to the south towards U.S. 41 again, and then the properties at that intersection to the north and northwest are also in the CRA. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And in your opinion, your professional opinion, what is this Community Redevelopment Area for, the purpose of it? MS. FRANTZ: Yeah. The Community Redevelopment Area is for specifically kind of the subject that we're talking about today. You have an area that's considered blighted, and you use a number of different February 13, 2025 Page 70 planning techniques, tools, legal tools, to incentivize, encourage redevelopment of that area. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So in other words, it's to -- it's my understanding that in order to establish the CRA, one of the things you have to do initially is do a study which addresses blight or slum, words like that, which are weird words. But either way, I mean, the whole point of it is to eliminate that, right? MS. FRANTZ: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: By refocusing, either financially or otherwise, ways of getting business back on its feet, business or other -- or even residential back on its feet in those areas? MS. FRANTZ: Right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Is that a fair statement? MS. FRANTZ: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Thank you. MS. FRANTZ: Next slide. Another summary. Seven summaries in this presentation. We've demonstrated that we're consistent with the Land Development Code, we're consistent with the Growth Management Plan. The Site Development Plan that's proposed is in compliance with all standards for approval for the Site Plan with Deviations. The staff is recommending denial. I do want to point out that following a recommendation of denial would effectively result in fewer trees planted at code minimum heights and with just the code minimum planting area. So supposing that we have not met the criteria for approval, the February 13, 2025 Page 71 ultimate result of the staff recommendation makes that worse. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. FRANTZ: That being said, we do think we're consistent with all of those standards for approval. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. FRANTZ: Again, we have a recommendation of approval from the CRA's advisory board, and we're seeking approval as requested. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yes. So I want to put this into the record just so I have it. I have an email that was provided to me by the county. They're putting it into the record. It's from Ms. Shirley Garcia, who's the program manager for the Community Redevelopment Area, essentially advising that there was a motion of approval by the advisory board. You-all made a presentation -- or they made a presentation, and so -- I just want to put that in the record that there is adequate proof that, you know, the CRA is recommending approval on this. So thanks for providing that. MS. FRANTZ: That's the end of my presentation. Obviously, still here for questions, comments. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Sure. MS. FRANTZ: And if there's any rebuttal needed, I'd like to reserve time for that. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Let's check and see if there's any public comment. MR. SUMMERS: We have one online speaker. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay, great. Let's hear about that. MR. FOWLE: Hello. Can you hear me? February 13, 2025 Page 72 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yes, we can. MR. FOWLE: My name is Ron Fowle, Jr. I've owned the car wash that is in the CRA less than a mile -- mile away from this site for 33 years. Been in the business for 50 years. Consulted on many car washes. First of all, I'd like to say I just did a quick Google search. Snappy Car Wash is not a franchise. It's a private ownership, and being that, there is no model of, you know, an exact size car wash that has to go there. Car washes come in all different sizes. You can get a car wash as little as 60 feet long and longer than what they're proposing. One of the things I would also point out, that they bought this property after all the takings. And the design of the deviation was for if someone was there, the Land Development Code has gotten so strict that some places couldn't do a minor change to their property. It would just have to physically close down. So -- you know, they're kind of pushing the issue of what the deviations should be. And the thing -- they state they're a franchise. I don't know where that comes from, whether, you know, they're trying to use that to get it in there. And they really haven't shown any reason why they should have a deviation. You know, they -- another restaurant could go there easily. A car wash can go there easily. They're trying to put a car wash that would normally be put on -- somewhere, a 250-foot-deep piece of property on a 200-foot piece of property. So my feeling, it would be a little bit unfair for someone to come in, buy a piece of property, and just start asking for deviations. Now, they could go by the Land February 13, 2025 Page 73 Development Code and build a smaller car wash, which is totally feasible, possible, shaving five feet off that building. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Ron, can I ask you a question? Can you spell your last name for me? MR. FOWLE: F-o-w-l-e. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And the name of your business? MR. FOWLE: Naples Car Wash. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Excellent. MR. FOWLE: I'm actually being invited to sit on the CAR [sic] board. We're just waiting for a county commissioner's approval. Was at the meeting. Wasn't allowed to speak. There might be some issues with that. But they were more concerned of just hearing there was going to be more trees and not that there could be a smaller car wash put there. Within five years, their trees will grow up, and you know, be a nice piece of property. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Give me the address of Naples Car Wash. MR. FOWLE: 2595 East Tamiami Trail. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. And but for the deviations requested, you would be okay with a car wash here? MR. FOWLE: Well, yes. I mean, they're allowed by the Land Development Code of Collier County to put a car wash on C-4, but if they -- you know, they want a deviation, deviations were meant for -- there was a gas station there. There was a restaurant there. If they wanted to redevelop it to a restaurant, say if -- I won't mention any franchises, but say the big one comes in that everybody wants in town, the red chicken, you know, went in there, they could put one February 13, 2025 Page 74 there. It would be a little bit smaller than their design plan, but they wouldn't be asking for deviations. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Ron, one other -- actually a statement. That was me bringing up the franchise issue. They didn't tell me that. I brought that up, and just as an aside. So I'll ask about that, but I'll have to -- MR. FOWLE: I believe they -- sorry. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: They answered my question, but I brought it up. MR. FOWLE: Yeah, but I believe they said yes, they were a franchise. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: We'll get to the bottom of that. MR. FOWLE: Yeah. What -- I was going back to the CRA. They just want to hear more landscaping, more, more, more. They're not looking at the reality that there are, right now, two more proposed car washes in the CRA on top of Snappy's, and a third one being talked about. So that would make the CRA the car wash area of Naples, which I don't think the CRA wants that or any residents want that. They would like to see restaurants, something, you know, to the other mention, you know, a restaurant, doctor's office, urgent care, you know, place there. But, you know, they're allowed to put a car wash there. The other thing is they suggested they offer other services than other car washes. I would really like to know what their services were. I was reading through their website while listening to everybody, and they're basically an express car wash. They might offer a free towel or February 13, 2025 Page 75 something like that, but they're just, you know, free vacuums. There is a Mr. Car Wash right up the road, about three miles up the road that does that. There is an El Car Wash down the road on East 41 maybe -- well, it's four miles from me. It might even be less from them -- that offer the same exact services. So they wouldn't be bringing something new to the area. I happen to provide a full-service car wash. Nothing that they provide, you know, would improve on what I have. I do all the vacuum, window. I have employees. They're just tapping something that's down the street. And -- you know, basically, they bought the property knowing it was 200 feet, and most car wash operators would not buy a 200-foot piece of property to do a long tunnel in. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you for participating. MR. FOWLE: You're welcome. And if you have any questions for me, feel free to ask. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: You answered everything, and thank you again. MR. FOWLE: You're welcome. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Do we have anybody else signed up or online? MR. SUMMERS: No, sir. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. We're going to close the public -- public hearing portion. All right. MR. TEMPLETON: Actually, is there any way that I could put some stuff on the record? HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't even see you. I apologize. February 13, 2025 Page 76 MR. BOSI: Staff member. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Oh, okay. MR. TEMPLETON: Staff member, yeah. Yeah, for the -- so for the record, Mark Templeton. I do the landscape reviews for Development Review, and then I also help review petitions like these when they come in for deviations and they're involving any kind of landscape buffer deviation or anything like that. So I think where I particularly struggled with this one was the whole building length thing, right? Why does it need to be so long? I think in my staff report I showed, you know, four examples, and since then I found a few more. And just for transparency, I did talk to the gentleman who was just speaking before just to -- just to kind of educate myself about how car washes work and what's in them; why do they need to be so long? And it sounds like there's -- and hopefully he's still -- I don't know if he's still on or not. But it sounds like there's manufacturers that car washes can order parts from to build their car washes. And staff really struggled with, well, why can't -- why can't Snappy do that? Why can't Snappy go to these manufacturers and buy the equipment that all these other car washes have that are -- that are smaller, shorter in length, and that way they could provide the full LDC required buffer width. And one of my concerns -- I'm always really concerned about setting a precedent, right? I don't want to -- I want to make sure -- I'm happy to definitely support, you know, deviations, but there's got to be sufficient justification tied with them. You know, if there's not, and we just start approving February 13, 2025 Page 77 things, you know, my fear is now we get, you know, a bunch of DR applications coming in for all across the Bayshore, you know, overlay. And "Oh, Snappy, they got -- they got approved for less buffer width." And they could -- they could have done a shorter building, so there was really no reason, you know, why they couldn't have done that. And now we've set the precedent, and now we're approving -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Well, let me talk to you about the precedent part, because it doesn't set a precedent. Nothing does. In variance law, you take them case by case. I know people think that they set precedence, but -- and frequently people will come up and say, here are all these -- it's happened here. "Here are all these other variances that were approved. Why not us," but legally I'm required to look at everything for this thing on a case-by-case basis. MR. TEMPLETON: Okay. Sure yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I'm not controlled by precedent whatsoever. MR. TEMPLETON: Yeah, fair enough. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And, in fact, the expert, she hasn't even demonstrated, like, "Look at all these variances." I mean, she -- I haven't heard that. MR. TEMPLETON: True. Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: She didn't try to -- MR. TEMPLETON: But I know -- I know I've gotten calls from landscape architects that look at the RaceTrac that's on Shadowlawn that came in for a DR, and they're like, "Mark, how did they get all these royal palms here in their buffer?" And I just -- I got to say, "Well, they did a February 13, 2025 Page 78 DR." HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. TEMPLETON: So, you know, I -- and then -- and then, too, as -- I think I mentioned this in my staff report, so I apologize if I'm repeating myself. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Is this whole staff report yours? MR. TEMPLETON: Just the landscape portion, I -- it should be. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I just want to be clear about that. MR. TEMPLETON: Yeah. But -- yeah. And a couple other issues that, you know, staff really struggled with in trying to support this is -- you know, as -- again, as I mentioned in the staff report -- so sorry if I'm kind of repeating myself. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Have you been sworn in, by the way? MR. TEMPLETON: I don't think -- I don't think I have. THE COURT REPORTER: Do you swear or affirm the testimony you will give and gave will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? MR. TEMPLETON: I do. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Including all the testimony you've already made. MR. TEMPLETON: Yes. THE COURT REPORTER: I said that. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Anything else? MR. TEMPLETON: Yeah. So as I mentioned in my staff report, just to make sure it's kind of all out there is, you February 13, 2025 Page 79 know -- you know, the Bayshore overlay had its own standards created to encourage redevelopment. So there was some relief given to the buffer requirement. Normally they'd have to do a 15-foot-wide buffer there. Now they could just do a 10. My direct supervisor actually did some other research, which I also do think is included in there, and she looked at lot size. So there's minimum lot size, lot width, dimensions. It's a little bit out of my area of expertise, but -- and this is, I believe, even after the taking on Airport Road. So the site, as far as what she found -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Hold on one second. I'm starting to get a little uncomfortable with this. I have to -- let me just point something out right now. The point of this hearing is fundamental fairness, okay. I mean, the applicant is totally being blindsided by you coming in and saying all this stuff. You've got your staff report in here, but were you -- you weren't even in here -- weren't even in the room, but you took it upon yourself to come here in order to advocate for something, and I'm starting to wonder why is that happening. MR. BELLOWS: For the record, Ray Bellows. We wanted Mark here in case there were questions. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. But he's not. MR. BELLOWS: Okay. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I'm not asking him any questions. He's just advocating for his staff report, and he's talking about what his supervisor told him, which is not appropriate because that's hearsay. It's out of this thing. I mean, do you understand what I'm saying? February 13, 2025 Page 80 MR. TEMPLETON: Sure. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Like, I mean, we go through a lot of trouble to set up these hearings so that they're fair, and they're -- that, you know, the applicant has an opportunity to know what is going to be presented against them. And we started this off with the county presenting their side of it, and you didn't show up. You weren't there. You didn't stand up. You didn't say, "I'm here." You didn't do any of that stuff. So, I mean, forgive me. I love the county. Love you all, but you guys have to follow the rules, okay. I mean this is -- I mean, Sean, you could have told me, like, we have -- we're having someone coming down here to talk more about, you know, the landscape. But I'm starting to feel like you're a little bit biased, and you're coming across as you're advocating for something when, as a professional planner or landscape planner, you should just be laying out the facts and saying, "This is the criteria." This is -- "you know, my professional opinion is X," and I feel like that's been done in your staff report. But the way that you're presenting this is almost -- it's a little unfair, frankly, to me and to the applicant. MR. TEMPLETON: Okay. Fair enough. Apologies. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And then I had to stop you in the middle of it just to get sworn in. It's not the way I want to run these meetings. That's why I set them up this way. Anything else? MR. TEMPLETON: Can I speak to the reduction in buffer width, though, from 10 to five? So, I mean, February 13, 2025 Page 81 plantings struggle to do very well in even the 10-foot buffer that code requires, and now we're bringing it down to five. That brings the trees that much closer to the pavement. And I've just got concerns about, you know, the reduced planting area and not trying to jam in all these plannings there into that area. In regards to the increase in the height that they're proposing for the shrubs, I mean, I see it all around town where, I mean, they just -- landscapers come in there -- everybody wants visibility to their property. I mean, you're just going to come in there, just mow down the hedge. It's very hard to enforce that. The buffer width, you know, there's no setback for parking areas and drive aisles. The buffers pretty much create that separation of those drive aisles and parking area from roadways and sidewalks and adjacent properties and things like that. So those are my concerns regarding, you know, reducing that buffer -- that buffer width. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Great. Would you like to cross-examine him? Would your landscape architect like to cross-examine him? MS. FRANTZ: I think we can address the topics that have been brought up, and we can determine whether cross-examination is necessary. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Go for it. MS. FRANTZ: I think this has been a less formal process, and I'm okay with that. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: You finished? MR. TEMPLETON: I'm good, yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. They February 13, 2025 Page 82 may have questions for you. MS. FRANTZ: So in all fairness, although it wasn't brought up during today's presentation, I have spoken to Mark about his concerns, and it wasn't a surprise to me, just to be fair to Mark, and be clear. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Wait, wait, wait. You're surprised that he's here? I'm surprised that he's here. So what surprises you about it? MS. FRANTZ: No, I'm not surprised. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Oh, okay. Okay. All right. So you understood his point of view? MS. FRANTZ: I've heard his point of view, and I think that -- you know, we can go into some of the individual issues, but I think that we've demonstrated compliance with all of the standards for approval, and I think that some of the concerns that have been brought up are outside of the standards of approval. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MS. FRANTZ: So I actually want to take a step back to the virtual presenter and address -- I want to correct the record and have the applicant come up and talk through. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So you want to talk about the franchise issue? MS. FRANTZ: That franchise issue and ownership and that kind of stuff. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Thank you. How are you, sir? MR. DUFFY: Good afternoon. How you doing? Michael Duffy, D-u-f-f-y. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: You're tall. February 13, 2025 Page 83 MR. DUFFY: It's going to be low. I'll lean. General manager for Snappy Car Washes, which is our brand name, not a franchise. We are independently owned and operated. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. DUFFY: The building design, the 125-foot building is our minimum to fit in all the equipment that our customers are accustomed to having across our brand. We have two other locations in Fort Myers. And the equipment doesn't shrink or grow. So if you have 10 pieces of equipment in a car wash to get this -- what we think is the perfect car out perfectly clean, perfectly dry, you have to have, in our opinion -- and we've been in the business since the mid '90s -- you have to have certain pieces of equipment in that tunnel, and they will only fit in this minimum size 125-foot building. That's our reasoning behind that. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. It's -- yeah. The equipment has to be covered or other -- it's going to, first of all, be damaged by the weather, and it's going to cause a lot of noise. MR. DUFFY: Right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So the equipment that you're buying, is the way I understand it, is -- like -- like the equipment you put in under the hood of a car. I mean, the hood of the car has to cover it, and, you know, I get it. I understand that. MR. DUFFY: So I think we understand other people have shorter tunnels. That's fine for other people. That's not Snappy Car Wash. That's not our brand. We don't like the quality of car wash they put out. That's why we do February 13, 2025 Page 84 good business is because we're in competition with those people. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. And there was another issue about "other services." MR. DUFFY: I think what was intended by "other services" is, again, the equipment inside the tunnel, to fit that inside the tunnel. That's the other services they're talking about. You have wraps, you have top brushes, you have mitter curtains, you have wheel brushes and things that put stuff on your wheels, you've got a certain amount of blowers, things like that, that other people can't present to their customer because they don't have the space. Our optimum size building is actually 140 feet. This is a crunch down as much as we can crunch it down, which kind of hurts, but we can crunch it down that far without losing quality. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So you've -- I mean, there's all kinds of car washes. Of course, I've seen the car washes at a gas station, which are maybe 10 or 15 feet long. Had my mirrors ripped off of car washes. I mean, everybody's seen all these different types of car washes. I presumed that it's because of the equipment that's in them dictates how big the space has to be, and you're just picking the equipment that you're accustomed to use, right? MR. DUFFY: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Anything else? MR. DUFFY: Were there other questions along that line you wanted me to answer? HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: No. I think the -- thank you for clarifying the franchise thing. I brought February 13, 2025 Page 85 that up. That was my issue. Maybe I -- yeah, I brought that up just because I thought, like, that was what caused the design. But, I mean, you know, it's not a franchise. You've cleared that up. Thank you very much for doing that. MR. DUFFY: Anything further, we're right here. MR. KEATON: I'd just like to -- I'm Roger Keaton. I'm the owner. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. KEATON: I'd like to just clarify. The length of the tunnel, 123 feet, there's probably five or six car washes in Naples that are 140 feet or more. It's not like we're building some supersized car wash or tunnel length. And I'd also like to point out that the 5-foot differential, the individual that's a mile away from us, what does the 5-foot differential mean to him? I mean, it does nothing, okay. It affects him -- you know, he's okay with a car wash being there, but he's worried about our 5-foot differential. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It is a public hearing, and people are able to participate, and so -- MR. KEATON: I understand that. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- I get that. Thank you for being here. I appreciate that. All right. MS. FRANTZ: So I just wanted to make sure that that was clear and my comments were clear. I do think that this discussion about the length of the building is more color on the request than it is speaking directly to the standards for approval. We've demonstrated that we're meeting all of the setback requirements. There are no requirements in the code limiting the length of a car February 13, 2025 Page 86 wash building. So we're not exceeding any limits that is in the code by the car wash being that length. Yeah, okay. So there were a couple of comments that were brought up about the buffer, one of which was the width of five feet and potentially impacting the survivability of plantings in that area. So I'd like to have Greg come back up and speak to that as our expert in landscape in architecture. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. So, Mr. Diserio, you heard the testimony from the county's landscape expert, correct? MR. DISERIO: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And could you please respond to that? MR. DISERIO: Yeah. The 5-foot buffer that we're proposing here is no different than the 5-foot buffer that's allowed on the south and east side. I don't -- necessarily don't disagree with some of the statements that Mr. Templeton made. The more green area you have around a tree the better, obviously, it is. We selected the trees that we're using here given the space, whether it was 5-foot or 10-foot. So I do believe that what we selected is a tree that adapts, in my opinion, to the urban environment. I do agree with his comment on the landscapers coming in and cutting down hedges, you know, cutting down the buffers. That's more of a management issue around the county, and not just in Collier County, but everywhere, that -- should allow those shrubs to grow. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: But that has no bearing on what we're talking about today at all. MR. DISERIO: Good. February 13, 2025 Page 87 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I mean, because I get it, it might be a problem for the county -- MR. DISERIO: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- and the county should go out there and police it, and -- if that's really important to them, but -- MR. DISERIO: Thanks. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- I don't know how that has any bearing on this. MR. DISERIO: Okay. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I presume you're going to plant things that are going to survive and that they will be taken care of. MR. DISERIO: And code required that if they don't survive, they have to be replaced. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. DISERIO: That's all I have, thanks. MS. FRANTZ: A couple of other comments were made. Again, all of the discussion about the appropriateness of a car wash, it is an approved use, and we're required to be an approved use to be able to submit this application. So it's one of the things that qualifies us for this application -- for approval of this application. The same applies to the comment about the lot size. The fact that we meet the minimum lot size requirement for C-4 zoning district is one of the things that qualifies us for approval rather than disqualifies. If we did not meet the minimum lot size requirements, we would not be able to submit an SDP or a Site Plan with Deviations application. I don't think I have any other responses. I think -- I think our consistency with the development order has been February 13, 2025 Page 88 made clear. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yep. MS. FRANTZ: We've had our testimony put on the record. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I think you've covered everything. Two things. Don't leave with my pointer. MS. FRANTZ: Yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And, number two, while I ponder this and decide how I'm going to go with this, I did notice that the fence -- the fence canvass around the property is in very poor shape. If you could have your client maybe, like, neat -- tidy that up. It's ripped and warn and torn. If you can get that cleaned up in the meantime, I'd appreciate it. MS. FRANTZ: Okay. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Wow, that was a lot of information. Thank you. Anything else from your team? MR. BOSI: Nothing else from the county. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Any surprise visitors? (No response.) HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. I'll get a decision out as soon as possible. MS. FRANTZ: Thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. That item is closed. I do want to talk for a minute about process. Thank you. I would have forgot it. I feel like it's -- I set up the system of the county February 13, 2025 Page 89 presenting first so that everyone can hear -- the applicant can hear all the testimony supporting the decision of the county, and I do that with respect to the county, also for respect to the public and that so that it just flows better. So I -- and I'm sorry if I snapped at you. I may have, but whatever. But it just -- it upsets me when I see this due process, you know, problem happening right away, and I don't think it's fair. And I want people to leave here feeling like they got a fair shot at it, okay? And I just would appreciate it if you could notify me ahead of time that, "Hey, we have someone else here that's going to testify," and I'll give the county as much time as they need to make their case, but I was taken off guard by that, and I'm sure that the applicant was as well. MR. BOSI: Mike Bosi, Planning and Zoning director. That's on me, because what I should have done is provided a little bit more clarification to Mark in terms of how the process goes, when he speaks, that he should have been at the podium with -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Sean. MR. BOSI: -- with Sean when they were presenting, putting out the facts, that the points that were -- that were made verbally were in the staff report, and then he was here to provide for, you know, reinforcement of those positions and then responding to questions related to those positions. And we didn't do an adequate job of prepping Mark for the process, so that's on -- that's on me and my team. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. I appreciate that. And the staff report's great. You guys al- -- I mean, the county always does -- you guys do a thorough job all the February 13, 2025 Page 90 time with your staff reports and everything like that, and they -- we've gotten -- you cover the notice stuff, you cover everything that I need you to cover, and it's been flowing pretty well. So this has been the only hiccup in two years. I don't know how long I've been here, but -- so once again, if I seemed irritated, I apologize. I just really try to protect the fundamental basics of the tenets of the hearing, which is fairness and not surprising people, you know. So nothing against you. I apologize for that. MR. TEMPLETON: No worries. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Great. Everybody have a Happy Valentine's Day. Do the right thing. ******* February 13, 2025 Page 91 __ ______ There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Hearing Examiner at 4:15 p.m. COLLIER COUNTY HEARING EXAMINER ANDREW DICKMAN, HEARING EXAMINER These minutes approved by the Hearing Examiner on 2/2, as presented ✔or as corrected . TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF FORT MYERS COURT REPORTING, BY TERRI L. LEWIS, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER, FPR-C, AND NOTARY PUBLIC.