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HEX Minutes 09/12/2024September 12, 2024 Page 1 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY HEARING EXAMINER Naples, Florida, September 12, 2024 LET IT BE REMEMBERED that the Collier County Hearing Examiner, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 1:00 p.m., in REGULAR SESSION at 2800 North Horseshoe Drive, Room 609/610, Naples, Florida, with the following people present: HEARING EXAMINER ANDREW DICKMAN ALSO PRESENT: Michael Bosi, Planning and Zoning Director Raymond V. Bellows, Zoning Manager John Kelly, Planner III Ailyn Padron, Management Analyst I September 12, 2024 Page 2 MS. PADRON: You have a live mic. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Thank you very much. All right. Good afternoon, everyone. It's September 12th, 2024. My name is Andrew Dickman. This is the Collier County Hearing Examiner meeting. Let's rise and do the Pledge of Allegiance, please. (The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.) HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. Welcome, everyone. As I said, my name is Andrew Dickman. I'm a Florida Bar attorney. I've been practicing for over 20 years in good standing with the Florida Bar. I am -- my specialty's in land use, zoning, all the types of areas that deal with what I'm dealing with here today, the code -- the Hearing Examiner's role under the code here in Collier County. I'm not a Collier County employee. I was appointed by the Board of Commissioners, so I'm here as an impartial decision-maker. The point of this hearing is, in fact, just that, to have an impartial hearing where I can hear from not only the county, but hear from the applicant and also the public, and then I will be making a decision within 30 days. I will not render a decision here today. I'll render a written decision within 30 days. Usually I can get that done faster than that. I have had no outside contact with anyone regarding this application. I haven't spoken to the applicant, haven't had any meetings with the county. I don't meet with anyone regarding substantive matters just so that it's fair. If I ever -- when I do go out and visit the property, I'll disclose it here at the meeting so that September 12, 2024 Page 3 everybody knows. My role here is to take in the testimony and the evidence that's already in the record -- there's a very large record with the application and everything that's made available to the public, so all of that is stuff that I review -- and then listen to the testimony that is relevant to the criteria that is associated with this particular petition. We only have one item on the agenda today. This is a quasi-judicial hearing. The procedure that I like to follow is first have the county planter -- planner introduce the item, give us a little background, give us their recommendation and any conditions associated with that. Then I'll ask the applicant or the applicant's representative to come over to this other podium and do their full presentation, and then what we'll do is we'll go to public comment. This is a hybrid meeting, so there's folks in the audience -- thanks for being here today. If any -- and there's also perhaps someone that may want to speak via Zoom. The county has made that available for the public. So we'll do that procedure. The public, I would like -- if you're going to speak, fill out a speaker card and hand it over to this young lady over here, and then use this podium here. Try to relax if you're going to speak. Don't -- you know, don't be nervous; don't be worried. What I really want to hear from you is things that are germane to the application. I mean, you could -- you could spend your time any way you want. You can say almost anything you want to say, but it's really going to help me more if you speak to the topic at hand. But -- if I look away, don't try to, you know, read into that. I might be taking notes or looking at some of the things in the file, so don't be offended by that. And then once the public hearing process is closed, I'll allow the September 12, 2024 Page 4 applicant some time for rebuttal if that is necessary. As you can see, we have a court reporter here. The county provides a court reporter to have verbatim -- verbatim record of these meetings, which is why I'm trying to speak as slow as I can and as clearly as I can, because she will stop me and say I'm talking too loud or she doesn't understand what I'm saying, and she's going to do that to everybody else that does the same thing. So we want to have a clean record. So anyone who's going to testify here today needs to do so under oath, so that means we're going to have everyone who is going to speak here today to stand, raise your right hand, and then I'll have the court reporter swear you in. So anyone who's speaking today, please stand and raise your right hand, or -- you're excused. THE COURT REPORTER: Do you swear or affirm the testimony you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? (The speakers were duly sworn and indicated in the affirmative.) HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Thank you, everybody. Sorry about that. MR. HAUWILLER: That's all right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I'll put an asterisk by that little speech. So with that, I think we're ready to go with the first and only item on the agenda. Hi, John. MR. KELLY: Good morning, Mr. Dickman. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Afternoon. MR. KELLY: John Kelly. Is this on? There you go. ***Let's try this again. Good morning, Mr. Dickman. John Kelly, Planner III, for the record. September 12, 2024 Page 5 Before you is Agenda Item 3A. It's Boat Dock Petition PL20230014603. The petitioner requests the Hearing Examiner approve a 213-foot boat dock extension from the maximum permitted protrusion of 20 feet allowed by Section 5.03.06 of the Collier County Land Development Code for waterways greater than 100 feet in width to allow for the replacement of an existing boardwalk that was severely damaged by Hurricane Ian with a new boardwalk that will include kayak storage, paddlecraft launch, and covered gazebo protruding a total of 233 feet into a waterway that is 1,524 feet wide. Staff notes the prior structure received development approval as a fishing pier per Collier County Planning Commission, Resolution 93-14. Boardwalks and gazebos are listed as permitted uses within the Bay Forest preserve area per Section .09 of the PUD document. The subject site is located on the west side of Vanderbilt Drive approximately one mile north of Wiggins Pass Road at 377 Bay Forest Drive in Section 8, Township 48 South, Range 25 East of unincorporated Collier County, Florida. The property is located within the 124-acre Bay Forest Planned Unit Development with 697 residential units as per Ordinance 81-07 as amended. Public notice requirements for this meeting were as per Land Development Code Section 10.03.06.H.2. Property owner notification letter and newspaper ad were satisfied by the county on August 23, 2024, and a public hearing sign was posted by the applicant's agent on or about August 28th, 2024, per a notarized affidavit. The boat dock extension was reviewed based on the review criteria contained within Land Development Code Section 5.03.06.H. Of the primary criteria, it satisfies five of five. Of the secondary criteria, it satisfies four of six, with the third and sixth criterion being not applicable. And it has been found to be consistent with the September 12, 2024 Page 6 Growth Management Plan and the Land Development Code. The Site Improvement Plan, SIP-PL20240004283, is required for work to proceed and will ensure compliance with the Land Development Code. With respect to public comment, only one phone call was received in response to advertising, and the caller had no objections once the project was explained. Staff recommends the Hearing Examiner approve the subject petition in accordance with the plans contained within Attachment A subject to the following condition of approval; that being, one, motorized vessels are prohibited from using the subject boardwalk as a docking facility. That concludes staff's presentation. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you very much. Appreciate it. All right. The applicant or the applicant's representative. I see Mr. Rogers coming on up. Good afternoon. MR. ROGERS: Good afternoon. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: If you-all hear people being a little confused about whether it's morning or noon, we switched from morning to the afternoon. So sometimes I say that to -- like, "good morning." MR. ROGERS: Still not used to it. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It is definitely afternoon. MR. ROGERS: Yes, definitely. Good afternoon, everybody. Jeff Rogers, for the record, with Turrell, Hall & Associates here today representing Bay Forest Homeowners Association. As John outlined, the property is located at 377 Bay Forest Drive, Naples -- North Naples area, just up off, like, Wiggins Pass bay area. As you can see on the page, it's not really clear, but that's September 12, 2024 Page 7 kind of a location of it. The development -- just to touch on it, the development has a very large preserve area which the boardwalk -- the existing boardwalk is currently being rebuilt within. The boardwalk was built in the early '90s per the original approval, as John outlined, by the county, I think, in 1993 as a fishing pier, and associated with that, landward of the mean high water line is a boardwalk similar to what you see, like, Pelican Bay, Clam Pass that gets you up to the -- to the actual development. Moving forward if you would, please. Here's some pictures of the existing -- well, pre-storm damage existing on the boardwalk. So a typical boardwalk through the mangroves with handrailing and access out to a gazebo area, fishing area, covered roof, I guess, qualifies as a boathouse per Collier County's interpretation of the structure itself. Moving forward. Here's some existing pictures, as I like to always kind of run through and give you a little history and why we're here today in front of you. Again, the existing structure was built in the mid -- early to mid-'90s. It was damaged by Hurricane Ian. A lot -- as you know, I've been in front of you here recently with a lot of projects up in this area. And part of the project is to -- most of the project is to rebuild it as -- as previously approved. And to be open with you, that is currently going on right now. There is a contractor on site. We've been working with county staff to get the building permit approved to allow the boardwalk section, let's call it, to be under construction out to approximately the mean high water line where the boat dock extension that's in front of you today is being heard. Why is it being heard? Because we are changing the footprint of the previously approved structure. So this is some pictures. Let's move forward. I've got some others, I think, of it from the water view when I was out doing the September 12, 2024 Page 8 submerged resource survey. The top one you can't see very well, but the top one, like, I'd say -- let's call it 100 feet landward of the gazebo, the railing and the decking, everything's gone. The only thing left, basically, are -- this piling structure as well as some of the support, you know, cap timbers and stringers that supported the decking. A lot of it ended up in the mangroves in the surrounding area. But, again, it's being constructed up to the mean high water line as we speak. Moving forward, if you would. Here's an overview of the entire structure as it runs through the -- you know, snakes its way through the mangroves on its way out through -- this is a conservation easement with the State. We are still currently working to get the State permit from them. There's some minor discrepancies in regards to the conservation easement. Nothing that's going to get this thing -- not allow this -- not authorized approval. We have regulatory approval in hand. They're just working on some proprietary state land stuff still. Tim Hall in my office is working on that currently. So that's the big picture. And, realistically, everything's being built as-is. The gazebo and the structure waterward of the mean high is slightly changing. How is it changing? We are -- we are reducing the overall existing protrusion out slightly. There is some discrepancies on the historic mean high line versus what it was surveyed today. So it's somewhere between 20 -- 20-foot reduced as well as -- I think the county was saying somewhere, like, just five feet. So there's a little gap in there. But it is being reduced overall protrusion-wise. And the main thing driving us being here today is the addition of a kayak launch and associated gangway down to it. This is a -- I want to stress this is a current use that they did use their boardwalk and gazebo for launching kayaks for access to the water for their residents. September 12, 2024 Page 9 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: How in the world did they do that? MR. ROGERS: It was not -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It's not safe, probably. MR. ROGERS: From my understanding, and part of the reason we're here, is to modernize the facility but improve upon access to the water -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. ROGERS: -- by creating an actual gangway and a ramp that floats, a poly float for launching the kayaks, paddleboards, and just provide additional recreational access to the bay for them in a much safer way. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yep. MR. ROGERS: There is a storage of the kayaks. They were storing them currently -- I say "currently" -- historically on the boardwalk just outside of the railing up along it, which is a typical practice, and that wasn't either a really great design or practice for them. It was difficult, so we've improved upon that with this proposed. But most of that is landward of the mean high water line, most of the storage. So moving forward, if you would. Here's a quick little overview of the existing boardwalk that was there and the shape of it. You can -- you can kind of see those dimensions are not really great. Move forward if you would, please. Here's the overall putro [sic] on the south side, 233. You can see that taken from the mean high water line out. And you can hardly see it, but I think there's a zoomed-in. Kayak storage is being proposed here. There are kayaks there. If you move forward one more, I think there's closer-up details. There you go. September 12, 2024 Page 10 So we are changing the shape of the gazebo/boathouse as well as then creating a little bump-out here to attach the gangway down to the poly float kayak launch, which would be -- which is proposed there. Again, the water depths are very shallow here, so it is -- it's not a vessel structure, so to speak, a motorized vessel structure. It's just kayaks and paddleboard, you know, and still maintaining the recreational aspect of it being a fishing access. So that's kind of the overview of the project. I would like to touch on the criteria and run through that with you. As you know, we're doing two petitions here, the boathouse and the BDE. I would like to run through the BDE primary criteria with you. Number 1, whether the number of dock facilities and/or boat slips proposed is appropriate in relationship to the waterfront length, location, upland, land use, and zoning of the subject property and, yes, we satisfy that. We're maintaining a previously approved use. We're just kind of modernizing it and making it a better facility for everybody. If you'd go back one slide. I forgot I had that in there. There's a zoomed-up view of what the actual end structure is. And you can see, underneath the proposed, the existing gazebo that's there barely. You can see the white roof. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I see it off that way, yeah. MR. ROGERS: Yeah. So it is ultimately a reduction of the previously approved. And you know, just getting into the weeds a little bit, I mean, we could technically rebuild that structure as it exists today. So there is that option if we were to not get approval with the State, which I don't foresee being an issue nor -- if we got county approval, we could technically rebuild that structure. Number 2 of the primary, whether the water depth at the proposed site is so shallow that a vessel of the general length, type, September 12, 2024 Page 11 and draft, as described in the petitioner's application, is unable to launch or moor at mean low tide. This is a nonmotorized vessel structure, so it really -- I would say, yes, we do meet this, because we weren't [sic] proposing kayaks and paddleboard only, and there is no real draft associated with that, so -- depths are extremely shallow here in this bay. But all in all, you know, it doesn't affect what we're trying to propose to utilize this structure for. Number 3, whether the proposed dock facility has -- dock facility may have an adverse impact on navigation. On the previous ones, I don't really -- move back some, if you would, a couple slides. I'm sorry. Yeah, I don't really have a whole view for you of where the channel is, but if you're familiar with this area, the actual boating channel is called the marked channel, is probably west of our terminus end of our structure by probably at least a football field, if not more, to the edge of the channel where boats are allowed -- are authorized to go 30 miles an hour. So there's a significant buffer between us and the actual thread of navigation within this section of Wiggins Pass. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Right. MR. ROGERS: So there is no impacts to navigation. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So this is actually north of the pass? MR. ROGERS: Correct, yes, sir. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Wiggins Pass, anyway. MR. ROGERS: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And I know there's that really tight channel that winds through there past -- MR. ROGERS: Yep. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- Barefoot Beach. MR. ROGERS: It's just south of those Barefoot Beach docks. September 12, 2024 Page 12 It's literally right off to the east of that, but it's in that bottleneck section as well, yes, sir. Number 4, the criteria, whether the proposed dock facility protrudes no more than 25 percent. The waterway width is 1,524 feet wide, and, you know, the overall proposed is, I believe, 15 percent of that, being 233 feet, so we are inside the allowable 25 percent width of the waterway. That criteria is met. Number 5 of the primary, whether the proposed location and design of the dock facility is such that the facility would not interfere with the use of neighboring docks. We're unique in this regard. The development has significant shoreline, most of which is under a conservation easement. But you can see the red lines around the boardwalk there. That's the area that they're allowed to build within per the CE language, right? So, you know, technically this is the only structure within this bay, and any adjacent -- there are no adjacent docking facilities. You know, south of us, yes, as you work your way south -- and I think Kalea Bay might be the closest one to us, and they, too, have a boardwalk similar to this. That was approved, I believe, through a PUD. That was not a HEX hearing. Number 1 of the secondary, whether there are special conditions not involving water depth related to the subject property or waterway which justify the proposed dimensions and location of the proposed dock facility. Here is basically the shoreline, the mangrove fringe, the natural shoreline, of which the mean high water line goes -- you know, it goes landward. I wouldn't say well landward, but it goes into the trees a ways, as well as the depths out there, and the uniqueness of the location of it being way off the bay allows us to go out without interfering with any current use of the waterway. So that criteria's also met. Number 2 of the secondary, whether the proposed dock facility September 12, 2024 Page 13 would allow reasonable, safe access to the vessels for loading and unloading and routine maintenance without the use of excessive decking. If you'd go forward again to the zoomed-in detail. There you go. So this is -- we're creating a -- part of this whole modernization was to create a much safer access. There's a ramp down to a float. It just provides -- easier than dropping the kayak over the top of the rail and trying to jump in the kayak and then climbing out. I believe there was an old gate on the end that they would use as well for access. I believe -- and I'm not 100 percent on that, but I believe there was. I think the -- some of the residents -- AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Yes. MR. ROGERS: So that was how they would access the water, which this just improves upon the whole situation that they were using the facility for. Number 3 of the secondary, for single-family docks, this -- this one doesn't -- this is one of the six secondary that doesn't pertain to the application, so it's N/A on this one. Number 4, whether the proposed facility would have a major impact on the waterfront view of neighboring property owners. No, and -- in quick, no, it wouldn't. There's an existing structure. We're actually reducing the overall protrusion. Neighbor's views from here -- I don't even know the closest neighbor, so there are no expected new impacts or really any impacts at all to anybody's view of the bay. Number 5, whether seagrass beds will be impacted by the proposed dock facility. Could you go forward for me on this? I'm not sure if I have -- keep going. Keep going. A little bit more. We've got to touch on the boat -- keep -- yeah, there's the kayak storage, just so you can see how we're proposing that. But move forward. I think September 12, 2024 Page 14 I've got the seagrass survey, which was very unique. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. I don't know if I have it in there, but -- there it is. This bay is littered with seagrasses. It's a natural -- it's a natural waterway. I dove this, I think, back in May and in July. Dove it two times, and both times a significant amount of seagrasses -- and worked with the Environmental department, Craig Brown, on the layout of this to maintain that 10-foot offset, which -- the seagrasses are very femoral in nature and dynamic. They move. They change a lot in regards to the species that was there, being a paddle grass mostly. So, literally, some of these grasses could be there one day and gone the next. It's just -- they're based on water quality, especially the paddle grass. Shoal grass is a lot more established seagrass that's more common to be there in the same footprint year after year. So we dove it twice and were able to prove that we were maintaining the 10-foot setback from the seagrass beds that were there. Number 6, whether the proposed dock facility is subject to the Collier County Manatee Protection Plan requirements. In this case we aren't. Typically, a multifamily property would be; however, we're not proposing any motorized vessels. So the other part of this request -- yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Before we get started on this one -- MR. ROGERS: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- I do want to clarify -- this is more procedural than anything, and we're going to have to talk about this. So typically, when you've come forward or other, you know, contractors come forward. It's either a boat dock extension and then a boathouse. So I'm not seeing that on the description in the staff September 12, 2024 Page 15 report. They're saying gazebo. So I just want to sort this out, because if you're asking for two things, did they apply for two things, and do I need to do two different decisions? MR. KELLY: John Kelly, for the record, Planner III. The county does not have a procedure for boardwalks and gazebos, per se. The closest mechanism we have to satisfy Land Development Code requirements is the boat dock and boathouse petition procedure, and we have followed it in the past. As Jeff referenced, Kalea Bay, that's the one that I remember, and that was heard by the Collier County Planning Commission, and they also accepted that there is no adopted practice for boardwalks and related gazebos. It would be the boat dock extension process and the boathouse process. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So that -- I mean, you understand what I'm saying? Because this is the first time before me where it's been in a combined application, and usually I do it in separate steps. But I want to make sure that this is copacetic. I understand your -- it seems like the description -- and I would imagine this is the same description that went out in the notices. It says "gazebo" and things like that. And then you're going to talk about a boathouse, and these are kayaks. And I'm not even sure they fit the definition of a vessel, but we'll -- maybe they do. Who knows. But you're telling me that this is fine to go forward. This is the best criteria -- this is the best criteria where this type of application fits, right? MR. KELLY: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. Jeff, do you agree with that? I just want to get it squared away. MR. ROGERS: I'm here to get approval, and what the county tells me to do one way or another, I will push back and have a September 12, 2024 Page 16 conversation with them. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: But you know what I'm saying? MR. ROGERS: Totally, 100 percent. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Typically I see you on, like -- MR. ROGERS: Right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- either this or this. MR. ROGERS: Right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So now I'm wondering -- I guess -- MR. ROGERS: Right. I was advised to do it this way because of, historically, Kalea. We did do -- Turrell Hall did do Kalea Bay -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. ROGERS: -- and we did have to do the boathouse criteria then -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. ROGERS: -- as well, so... HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. This is -- the concern isn't about anything -- like, it's more about, like, I want to make sure of my jurisdiction and what I have to do in terms of, like, is this a companion item -- MR. ROGERS: Right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- where you're doing one presentation, or is this a joint -- go ahead. Jump on it. MR. KELLY: Sorry. Just one other addition. Now, you typically would hear a boat dock extension and a boathouse petition together. They are on the same application. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. KELLY: And I just wanted to note that the original resolution that approved this specific structure, it was done, it says in September 12, 2024 Page 17 the title, for that fishing pier; however, that also was done as a boat dock. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Gotcha. MR. KELLY: So... HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Well, I am going to handle this as one decision, okay -- MR. ROGERS: Yep. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- even though you're following two different paths, because that's the mechanism -- the legal mechanism that's in the code for the type of thing that is being requested -- MR. ROGERS: Right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- to be rebuilt, okay. MR. ROGERS: Understood. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Sorry about that, but we've got to get it squared away on the procedure. MR. ROGERS: Let me make sure it's clear. Yes, I agree. Could you go back a couple slides just to the cross-section where it shows the boathouse. Go back, if you would. One more. There you go. Okay. So, you know, being a boathouse petition, we showed a boathouse, but the ultimate goal here is -- and the options are for the applicants -- is to have a roof that is consistent with the upland clubhouse material and/or a thatched roof, which is what they have now, being, like, a chickee hut, you know, that you would see, which is, again, what they currently have and which has withheld really well in regards to the wind. So I'll just make this quick through the boathouse criteria, if you bear with me on it, just to get it on the record. Number 1, the minimum side setback requirement being 15 feet. Yes, we're well within that 15-foot setback requirement from the September 12, 2024 Page 18 subject property riparian lines. Number 2, maximum protrusion into the waterway is 25 percent. I touched on this in the boat dock and, yes, we are well within the 25 percent maximum height. As you can see here, we label it -- you can't really see it real well, but it's right there. From the top of decking to the crown of the roof is 15 feet, which is what we're allowed. So that is the way it's designed and will be constructed, so that is met. Number 4, maximum number of boathouses or covered structures per site being one. Yes, sir, that criteria is consistent with what is being proposed. All boathouses and covered structures shall be completely open on all four sides, and that is currently what they have, and it will be exactly what they put back, so that criteria is met. And then No. 6 kind of talks about of the roofing material, and I touched on that. It's going to be consistent with the upland clubhouse. I don't think that's the route they're going to go. I think they'll go with the thatched roof chickee style, but either one of those two are accepted per this criteria. Number 7 is the final one. The boathouse or covered structure must be so located to minimize the impact on view. Again, the view was touched on with the boat dock, and there are no impacts expected for anybody's view. It's consistent with what's there today. So in closing, basically, the criteria is mostly -- all of the applicable ones are met. The petitioner is requesting a 213-foot boat dock extension from the allowed 20 feet for an overall protrusion of 233 feet from the mean high water line, and improve upon -- oh, I do have some pictures. Let's go forward, actually. I want to show you what we did at Kalea Bay. Go forward, if you would. This is just some quick -- we went down to Kalea and took some photos. This is kind September 12, 2024 Page 19 of, you know, exactly what we're looking to do here, something very similar, right? I have a little bump-out to have a gangway attached and ramp down to a small -- relatively small floating dock, usually a poly float, plastic floats, basically, so they don't draft a lot of water. Yes, the shaded footprint is larger, so, you know, they have to be careful where we locate it for seagrasses, which we did adjust accordingly for that. So all in all, that's basically what we're looking to do here, which is consistent throughout Collier County. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay, great. MR. ROGERS: If you have any questions, happy to take them. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: The only thing I wanted to get onto the record is in the staff report it's clear that the Environmental Planning staff has signed off on that. They're -- they're opining that, the Environmental Advisory Council board, this doesn't fall within their review criteria but that they are referencing the FDEP and the Army Corps permits that need to be done. So they're -- clearly, that has been reviewed by Environmental -- county Environmental staff as well. So I wanted to make sure that that's clear. MR. ROGERS: Yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. So why don't we go to public comment. Thank you for that presentation. MR. ROGERS: Yes. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Anyone signed up? MS. PADRON: Good afternoon. We have a total of five in-person speakers. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. MS. PADRON: Our first one is Kathryn James. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Good morning. Yeah, this one, please. Good afternoon. I said, "Good morning." September 12, 2024 Page 20 MS. JAMES: Good afternoon. So I'm Kathryn James. I've lived in Bay Forest since April of 2010, and yes, I do have a kayak, and I can't wait for this to open up. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I bet. MS. JAMES: I do think our board -- we're Bay Forest, and the company that we work with, I think they're doing an awesome job, and I just -- I'd like to see it continue. It's going to be more of an improvement. And there are times when -- because of our -- the boat dock, that would go under water certain times of the year because of the high tides and stuff. And I guess the way it is now, it's not going to happen, the way they're doing it. So I'd like to see this complete, and I think they've been very thorough in their work. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you for being here. MS. JAMES: Thank you. MS. PADRON: Our next speaker is Louise Nicolazzi Shapiro. MS. SHAPIRO: Hi. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Hi. MS. SHAPIRO: Good afternoon. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: How are you? MS. SHAPIRO: Good. So I'm just here in favor of this petition. I believe that the petition will not only do all the benefits that we've heard about through the presentations but also improve accessibility for physically challenged people who want to, in fact, enjoy the benefit of a kayak experience as well as the safety that's involved with it, whereas before it was very difficult for the residents to enjoy that type of experience. So, again, I'm in favor and hope that you approve this. September 12, 2024 Page 21 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you for being here. MS. PADRON: Our next speaker is -- our next speaker is Wanda Stawczyk. MS. STAWCZYK: Hello. I'm Wanda Stawczyk -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Hi. MS. STAWCZYK: -- and I've lived in the Bay Forest for about 20 years. And I am opposing this project because 464 residents, only very few they could enjoy kayaking or garaging the kayaks or even walk through the walkway to the end of the walkway. We are older people. We have health problems. It's -- the heat and mosquitoes, it's impossible to walk during the day, and at night, nobody walks at night either, maybe some people that have some kind of security. But the cost of that project is just amazing. On top of this, we have extremely big projects to restore the purity [sic] after the -- after the hurricane. So we're already spending almost $5 million for this project for this boathouse, whatever you can call it, and then we have another project for about the same kind of money to restore or refurbish the building to the Florida code. So we have a project for about $10 million or so. Do you think everybody can afford? Maybe some people do. But to combine one project and the second project, and still we have an estimate for future services, for future restoration that we don't have an amount yet. So we estimate that we could end up with $20 million assessments. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I understand. Mr. Wanda, can I ask you a question? Because I really cannot -- like, the part -- I understand the financial argument that you're making, which isn't part of the criteria that I have to look at, September 12, 2024 Page 22 but I do want to clarify something. Is this -- is this boardwalk available to everyone that lives in the community or just some of the people? MS. STAWCZYK: Yes, it is available, but some people, they cannot use it because they are too old. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. I understand what you're saying. MS. STAWCZYK: Probably, the -- I would assume only maybe 10 percent is using it. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Right. I understand. MS. STAWCZYK: So to spend that kind of money for 10 percent, I think, is very silly financially. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I understand. All right. Thank you. MS. STAWCZYK: You're welcome. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you for being here. MS. STAWCZYK: Thank you. MS. PADRON: Joe Hauwiller is our next speakers. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: The president. MR. HAUWILLER: Hi, yeah. Thanks for letting me speak. The boardwalk, when we started putting it together, we asked for volunteers for a committee, and we had over 30 people want to be on this committee to put it together. And the three things they really wanted to focus on was resiliency, safety, and accessibility. So together, with our engineering firm, we developed this project and this boardwalk with those three things in mind. Now, it was voted on by the Board unanimously. The funding for this project was voted by all the sub-associations, and it was also unanimous. There's wide support throughout the whole community for this. Some may choose to disagree as to how it's used and when September 12, 2024 Page 23 it's used, and that's fine. That's where we are. But what we're asking you to do today is to help us, again, with the safety and accessibility of this boardwalk. As you mentioned yourself, launching kayaks off the back of that tiki hut was dangerous, especially in low tides, because you would have to drop your boat down and then climb down a ladder to get onto the boat, and then when you were done, you'd have to, again, climb the ladder and then pull your boat back up again. And with the storage being over the rails, it was difficult to get your boat up there. And we have times where boats fell, and so they'd have to be brought back up again. Making the walkway wider, it's flatter. We took out stairs that were on the old boardwalk so people with -- that are handicapped can get out there on wheelchairs and on carts. We've taken out bottlenecks. It's a fantastic design, and I expect it to last at least 30 years like the previous one did. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. HAUWILLER: So I'm asking you to approve this so that we can get it built hopefully in time for Christmas. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Let me as -- Mr. Hauwiller, is that it? MR. HAUWILLER: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So -- okay. So you're actually the applicant since you're the president of the HOA, right? MR. HAUWILLER: Correct. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: The master HOA, I would assume, right, so there's -- MR. HAUWILLER: The master HOA. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- sub HOAs. So Jeff Rogers, who's been here plenty of times, he's your -- he's your representative. He presented. I just wanted -- and you did September 12, 2024 Page 24 testify that you-all -- I would assume you wouldn't be applying if the Board didn't vote, and -- MR. HAUWILLER: Right. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- authorize this -- MR. HAUWILLER: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- application to be filed and go forward with it. So I just wanted to make sure about that. And real quick question, is there going to be any electrical or lighting out at this area? Is there a -- MR. HAUWILLER: We talked about that. So we talked about putting electric out there and water. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. MR. HAUWILLER: And it really doesn't fit in how we use the boardwalk and how we want it used. We really would rather be better neighbors by not having lights out there. And, you know, at sunset, sometimes people will go out there with an acoustic guitar and play, and people will sing, right? But when the sun goes down, they go home. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. So that was just my second question. So is there hours that it's closed, or is it always open? MR. HAUWILLER: We don't have posted hours, but it's really not a comfortable place when the sun goes down. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I wouldn't go out there myself with those mosquitoes. But I've never been in your community, so I don't -- it looks like quite a long walk to get out there. MR. HAUWILLER: Yeah. I personally use it early in the morning at sunrise. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. HAUWILLER: And it's beautiful. September 12, 2024 Page 25 HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And you understand there won't be any motorized -- MR. HAUWILLER: No. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- boats be able to moor there or temporarily come in? MR. HAUWILLER: No. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I mean, obviously, to build it -- you've got some boats in there, but it's just kayak and fishing? MR. HAUWILLER: Yeah. I've been back there in a boat, a pontoon boat, and you scrape bottom pretty much everywhere. It's really not a spot for motorized boats. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I understand. Okay. MR. HAUWILLER: Anything else? HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thanks for being here. MR. HAUWILLER: Appreciate it. Thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yep. Take care of that arm. MR. HAUWILLER: Yeah. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Who else do we have? MS. PADRON: Our final speaker is Glenn Rogers. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Hello, Mr. Rogers. MR. GLENN ROGERS: Hello. Thank you for letting me talk. I happen to be on the volunteer committee with Bay Forest, so I support the board, Joe Hauwiller, and the rest of the board. We've been working on this for -- I guess it's been, like, a year and a half, and there has been a lot of time and effort put in by the volunteers and by Turrell, Hall & Associates, which I think it's done a fantastic job. You're absolutely correct, I'm a frequent kayaker, and I used to drop kayaks. I still don't have too much trouble doing that, but it is September 12, 2024 Page 26 very dangerous, especially when the tide's low, as it is now. And Jeff was right, it is a gate. We had a gate at the end of the tiki hut. One of the advantages of the way this is designed now is if you look carefully at the drawing, you'll see that the boardwalk is slightly wider just behind the tiki hut. We can actually -- we don't even have to go through and interfere with people that are out there fishing or playing a guitar. So you've got safety from the standpoint of not having to drop a kayak into -- when the tide is low, you don't have to go through the hut when people are there. One clarification, I think, just to make sure there's no confusion. I saw it reads as if there's storage out there. There is no storage of kayaks over the water. That is all inland. And Jeff did show that correctly in the drawings, but I just wanted to say that is there. I happen to be the financial representative on the team of volunteers for this. I know this is not about money, but I'm -- the numbers that were quoted before actually are incorrect. I didn't think we would get into numbers, but it's actually -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: You can have to -- or you can say anything you want if you'd like, but, personally, I'm not going to get involved in your -- your HOA finances and things like that. MR. GLENN ROGERS: And the horse is out of the barn anyway, because the money's all been collected in the project, as Jeff had said. A lot of the overland is already done. I mean, we're kind of way past that stage. So I just wanted to clarify that, that you're absolutely right from a safety standpoint, and as Joe said, an accessibility standpoint. This will give people access. And I have had a kayak at times out on the rail. It was way more dangerous when you had to lift up. People get back issues trying to pull them off from the outside. It was September 12, 2024 Page 27 pulling their rails off. Now the storage is inside. You're not even -- that's already been approved, so that's fantastic. But the one last point I wanted to make in terms of accessibility, there are 697 doors, as you heard. It is 100 percent accessible to all owners. And I have, many times -- whether you have storage -- and we have increased the amount of kayak storage out there. I think we'll probably have enough for anyone that wants to use it. But even if you don't have storage on the boardwalk, I've rolled my kayak down there many times and launched it from my garage. Anyone within Bay Forest can roll their kayak down there and launch it, so it is absolutely 100 percent accessible. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: That's something I was wondering is well -- so these are individually owned kayaks, not the association kayaks where somebody just takes them, or how does this -- MR. GLENN ROGERS: That is correct. There's been discussion of the possibility of a loaner program in the future, but that has not been presented or approved by the Board. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. GLENN ROGERS: So this was built, I think, around 1994. All that time, it's always been personal kayaks. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. GLENN ROGERS: Yes, they're personal. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And does -- this is just maybe a little bit of a strange question, but you mentioned -- I heard the guitar thing twice. So we're not talking about special events or weddings or things like that on the end of this? MR. GLENN ROGERS: No. It's -- MR. HAUWILLER: It's a single man with an acoustic guitar. MR. GLENN ROGERS: Yeah. If you heard Joe, single -- one guy with an acoustic guitar. We have -- we have a couple people September 12, 2024 Page 28 that like to play. I was actually -- I went and looked at both Audubon and Kalea Bay, and I know that the size of theirs, I think, are, like, 30-by-30. They're way too big for us, and that's what we thought. These looked like wedding venues. Ours is, I think, 13-by-15 currently. It's going to be increased very slightly. We don't want -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It's not a venue -- MR. GLENN ROGERS: No. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- in other words? I wanted to make sure because -- MR. GLENN ROGERS: No, absolutely not. It's more -- what I see more, you know, if it's Vick down there playing once in a while -- but it's mostly people fishing -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: That's different. MR. GLENN ROGERS: -- or just sitting, looking at -- yeah. That's, like, one guy, and sometimes two or three people will sing with him. That's it. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. GLENN ROGERS: And any other questions? HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: No. Just thank you for being here, all of you. MR. GLENN ROGERS: Okay. Thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Do we have any other speakers? MS. PADRON: We have no additional speakers. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. All right. Jeff, do you want to rebut any of that? MR. ROGERS: No, no. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: He's shaking his head no, for the record. Okay. County, anything we need to clarify or wrap up? September 12, 2024 Page 29 MR. KELLY: No, sir. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So just for the record, I want to -- glad to have people here speaking, first of all, because, I don't know, I started to feel a little bit lonely or sad that my ratings were low. Nobody was showing up. So thank you for being here. Maybe I'll try to be funnier or more entertaining in the future. But at any rate, I'm going to treat this -- because I've gotten -- you know, have been told that, obviously, this is for kayaks, which, okay, are vessels, and this is for a boardwalk to launch kayaks, so -- and then there is going to be a covered -- there is going to be a cover on it, so we are -- I am taking this as one application requesting two types -- two different things, a boat dock extension and also the boathouse, which is really just a covered shelter for that. So it's a little different animal. I'll make sure that I write it up the right way. Hopefully it will be clear, because 20 years from now if somebody sees the record, I want them to understand how we handled this. MR. KELLY: Just for clarification, the definition of a boat dock facility would include any covered structures on the dock. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. But the two criteria -- the criterias that were covered by Mr. Rogers, you know, the primary/secondaries for the dock, and then the other one was for the boathouse. MR. KELLY: Correct. I'm just trying to put your mind at ease for doing one decision. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I really appreciate that. MR. KELLY: The definition of a dock facility would include -- HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: That makes me feel really good, because I don't want to leave here with my mind not at ease, so thank you very much for that. It makes me feel better. September 12, 2024 Page 30 And then, once again, you know, for anyone who -- you know, I think some issues about internal private HOA issues came up. I just want to explain that the county does not get involved -- they just follow -- the county follows its regulations, and there's no way that the county can possibly -- with the number of HOAs in this county, possibly, nor should they, get involved in private deed restrictions and reviewing those and getting involved in that situation. I think they -- that's a private matter. And so -- and I mean that with no disrespect to anybody, because I think you're always going to get folks in favor and folks opposed for various reasons, but I just wanted to explain that for the record. Jeff, do you have something? You look so pensive. Do you want to put your mind at ease? MR. ROGERS: Yes, I do. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Go ahead. MR. ROGERS: I was kind of nervous when I walked in here today seeing all these people. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I was, too. MR. ROGERS: I went right to John and was like, "What am I missing?" So... HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. MR. ROGERS: So I appreciate your time, and staff. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. MR. ROGERS: Yeah, thanks. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you very much. I've got enough information here. I appreciate it. We don't have any other speakers, right? MS. PADRON: We do not. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Thank you very much. September 12, 2024 Page 31 Okay. If there's nothing else, then we'll close this item, and everybody have a nice day. Thank you for being here. AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Thank you. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Anything else we need to talk about, other business? MR. BOSI: Nothing from the county's standpoint. HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Thank you, everyone, for being here. Thanks to staff for setting this up, and have a nice day. We're adjourned. ******* September 12, 2024 Page 32 There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Hearing Examiner at 1:54 p.m. COLLIER COUNTY HEARING EXAMINER _______________________________ ANDREW DICKMAN, HEARING EXAMINER These minutes approved by the Hearing Examiner on ____________, as presented ______________ or as corrected _____________. TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF FORT MYERS COURT REPORTING, BY TERRI L. LEWIS, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER, FPR-C, AND NOTARY PUBLIC.