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Agenda 12/12/2023 Item # 2A1 (September 7, 2023 Budget Meeting)12/12/2023 COLLIER COUNTY Board of County Commissioners Item Number: 2.A.1 Doc ID: 27367 Item Summary: September 7, 2023 Budget Meeting Meeting Date: 12/12/2023 Prepared by: Title: Management Analyst II – County Manager's Office Name: Geoffrey Willig 11/30/2023 8:27 AM Submitted by: Title: Deputy County Manager – County Manager's Office Name: Amy Patterson 11/30/2023 8:27 AM Approved By: Review: County Manager's Office Geoffrey Willig County Manager Review Completed 11/30/2023 9:14 AM Board of County Commissioners Geoffrey Willig Meeting Pending 12/12/2023 9:00 AM 2.A.1 Packet Pg. 21 September 7, 2023 Page 1 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS Naples, Florida, September 7, 2023 BUDGET HEARING LET IT BE REMEMBERED that the Board of County Commissioners, in and for the County of Collier, and also acting as the Board of Zoning Appeals and as the governing board(s) of such special districts as have been created according to law and having conducted business herein, met on this date at 5:05 p.m., in SPECIAL SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following Board members present: Chairman: Rick LoCastro Chris Hall Dan Kowal Burt L. Saunders William L. McDaniel, Jr. ALSO PRESENT: Amy Patterson, County Manager Edward Finn, Deputy County Manager Jeffrey A. Klatzkow, County Attorney Troy Miller, Communications & Customer Relations September 7, 2023 Page 2 MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Good evening, everyone. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Good evening. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Oh, thank you, sir. All right. County Manager, let's dive into it. We've got everybody here. MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, let's -- welcome to your first of your budget hearings today, Thursday, September 7th at 5:05. We'll stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. (The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.) MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, we're going to start this meeting with Pelican Bay Services. We're going to -- the meeting's going to be broken into two parts, the first being Pelican Bay Services. We'll then adjourn and then move to the other portion having to do with the rest of the county budget. So with that, we're at Item 2, the advertised public hearing, Pelican Bay Services Division budget hearing, and I will hand this over to Mr. Finn to start. MR. FINN: Thank you, ma'am. Thank you, Commissioners. Edward Finn, Deputy County Manager. Assisting me today or actually running the show behind the scenes is going to be Chris Johnson, our budget director. He's going to be at the podium and handling the questions that confuse me too much. Tonight we're going to look at Pelican Bay Services Division budget. We are seeking to adopt a resolution approving levying the special assessment roll for that district, and then we'll be looking at the Board of County Commissioners' budget. We'll be discussing the tentative millage rates. We'll discuss changes to the tentative budget. Chris will read for us, into the record, the millage rates. We will then adopt a tentative millage rate resolution, a tentative September 7, 2023 Page 3 budget resolution, and announce the time and place for the final public hearing for the budget. This is the first of two. There will be an opportunity for public comment for both the Pelican Bay budget hearing and the BCC budget hearing. Agenda and speaker slips are available in the hallway. Anyone interested in addressing the Board regarding the budget must complete a slip and provide it to Mr. Miller across from me. He will collect those slips and announce the names. With that, we'll lurch into the Pelican Bay Services budget. That's our first item on the docket. Mr. Dorrill is here to describe his budget, and I'll be happy to turn the microphone over to him if he pleases. MR. DORRILL: Good evening, Commissioners. I've been asked to provide an overview of this budget for you. The Pelican Bay Services Division budget is somewhat unique in that it uses both the combination of an ad valorem millage as well as a flat rate of assessment, a non-ad valorem assessment as prescribed by Florida Statute Chapter 197 that you do under a separate agreement with the Property Appraiser. But in this case, every unit or equivalent residential unit in the community is charged the same rate. The total number of assessable units for the coming year is 7,660, rounded up. And in this particular case, the total operating budget for the division or the District for the coming year is $8,065,000. That includes both transfers as well as the required reserves in accordance with the Board's fiscal policy. The division has a number of operating and capital funds that include both a landscape enhancement and a water management operating account. Additionally, there is a separate taxing district, Ad Valorem Taxing District Fund 778, that we use primarily to pay for their streetlighting program. They own and operate their own September 7, 2023 Page 4 streetlights in accordance with the Board's policy. Next year the primary source of revenue is the non-ad valorem assessment. It is budgeted at $5,215,000. That represents a 6.4 percent increase over the current year. Additionally, we're spending down some of the fund equity or carryforward from the prior year. The total amount of carryforward funds to be spent this year, $2,075,900. As I indicated, there is a 6.4 percent increase in the assessment. Works out to about $5 per month or $60 per year. The total assessment for the coming year on an equivalent residential basis is $935. There's also a capital program. They charge a separate assessment for their capital program in addition to the Clam Pass ecosystem that they are responsible for in the Natural Resource Area, the first one in Collier County's history. There is a separate amount for capital improvements. The assessment in that case is $1,946,400 total. That is a 9 percent increase next year. There's also some loan proceeds. Earlier this year the Board authorized a commercial paper loan equivalent program. We made application for that. The District's maintenance and operating facility was essentially destroyed in Hurricane Irma. And while we have some insurance proceeds and we hope to get some FEMA reimbursement from Hurricane Irma, we do have a bid that the Board will consider and reward as early as next month to replace that facility. So we're also programming about $4 million in proceeds from the commercial loan in order to complete that program. Finally, because Clam Pass does provide an urban area benefit, we receive an annual subsidy from Fund 111, which is the County's Unincorporated Area General Fund, and next year that is programmed to be $520,000. As you know, and certainly Commissioner Hall knows, you September 7, 2023 Page 5 have a very active advisory board there that consists of both commercial property owners as well as residents, and they have organized themselves amongst a number of operating committees, and they actually have a budget and finance committee that spent months working with staff in this case to develop the operating and capital budget for next year, and I'm very happy to say that not only are they engaged, but this year's budget comes to you on a unanimous vote and recommendation for approval from both the budget and the finance committee and the full board, which consists of 11 people. So with that, I'll pause. I don't know if Mr. Finn has anything in addition. At the appropriate time, though, we do need a motion to authorize the Chairman to execute the resolution both approving the final budget and the associated assessment roll of 7,700 properties that gets electronically transmitted to the Property Appraiser and combined with the tax bill when it goes out in November. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall. COMMISSIONER HALL: Thank you, Neil. I do have a question. So this comes with public support from those committees, or is it just those committees saying this is the way we're going to do it and this is what we're going to ask for? MR. DORRILL: No. There's both a committee and then there's the full board, advisory board, and both of them considered the budget earlier at the end of the spring and the beginning of the summer, and in both cases, they voted unanimously to recommend this for approval. COMMISSIONER HALL: Okay. You know, me being new looking at this like I would as a business, I see every year this thing inches up. It just inches up, it just inches up, it just inches up. Then Irma came, and there was a big boom, and then it went back down a little bit, and it's inched up, it's inched up, it's inched up. Is this going to continue, or is this thing looked at every year like what September 7, 2023 Page 6 actual costs are, or is this -- I'm just curious. When I see the inch up, inch up, inch up, I get concerned. MR. DORRILL: I think that's a valid concern. In this case I think the big differentiation is twofold. We undertook a market rate adjustment for salaries last year. The board has heard that repeatedly over the course of the workshops and whatnot that they had. We have a very blue-collar workforce there. The groundskeepers that work there -- the landscapers and the groundskeepers are, you know, entirely within the blue-collar sort of work group that is there. They were woefully underpaid. And I'll just -- I'll be honest with you. I never thought I'd see the day in our community where entry-level salaries in the marketplace for semi-skilled landscape labor are $18.50 per hour, and this is what I'm currently paying across the street at Pelican Marsh in the CDD that's there with a $1,000 signing bonus and a $1,000 retention bonus after six months, and I've got four vacancies within that workforce. And so we've had a substantial increase in our labor burden for salaries and the associated benefits. And then, frankly, this board has been pretty aggressive in the last two years on the capital improvement side. We've had any number of capital improvement projects to fix some drainage issues that have affected this community. We have a $7 million sidewalk replacement project that is currently underway in the community to replace all the sidewalks in Pelican Bay over the course of a two-year period. And then, third, we do need to replace the operation and maintenance facility that had four feet of saltwater after Hurricane Irma. Those are the principal reasons for the increase. The chairman of our current board is also the chairman of the budget and finance committee. He spent his entire life in corporate September 7, 2023 Page 7 America in finance and accounting. And I'm just -- I would submit to you, they spent months developing this -- this budget, and so it comes to you with their recommendation. COMMISSIONER HALL: Okay. And then the other thing -- and this is non-ad valorem, so whether you have a $1 million condo or a $10 million house, you pay the same amount? MR. DORRILL: $935. And, you know, honestly, that's a good question. This comes up a lot. It also applies to all of the institutional and commercial and private country club. The Club at Pelican Bay is the single largest payer and source of this money. The Archdiocese of Venice. COMMISSIONER HALL: I saw where you were taxing God. MR. DORRILL: Taxes, the Catholic church there on Seagate Drive, and they pay that, Artis-Naples pays an equivalent residential component, as do all of the banks and the shopping center. And so the methodology that we have applies it on an equivalent residential unit basis or an acreage basis based on the intensity of use. The ad valorem side, the streetlighting side, though, is ad valorem-based. It's less than a million dollars total revenue on assessed value this year that's almost $9 billion. COMMISSIONER HALL: Has there been any consideration -- I mean, the reserves are rather large. Has there been any consideration to take some of those reserves and use that for capital improvements? MR. DORRILL: Well, yes, sir. As I said, we're spending that money down. This particular year we're forecast to spend $2,609,000 of the fund balance in support of current capital improvements and operations. Next year, the same source of funding will be $2,075,900. And so over the course of just two years we're spending up $5 million worth of fund equity in support of these capital projects and the other operating costs that I alluded to. September 7, 2023 Page 8 COMMISSIONER HALL: Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I just have a quick question, so -- because I've got, like, three pieces of paper in front of me that have all different numbers on them, and maybe because they're a bit dated. So 935 is what you're asking for now per property -- MR. DORRILL: Per ERU, yes. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- per ERU. And what was it? Because I'm looking at three different things in front of me. And like I said, some of them are dated maybe from previous things. What was it? MR. COLEMAN: Last year was 873. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'm sorry; 873? COMMISSIONER HALL: Yes. MR. DORRILL: Increase of -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: 873.29, that's right? That was the number. MR. DORRILL: Increase of $60.81. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I mean, I'm -- you know, we're just having some open comments here. And then do we have any -- do we get -- any public comment? MR. MILLER: Yes. We have one registered speaker for Pelican Bay. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let's hear from our speaker. MR. MILLER: Your speaker is Dr. Joseph Doyle. He's been ceded three additional minutes from Sandra Doyle, who is in the back. He will have a total of six minutes. DR. DOYLE: Good evening, Commissioners. Dr. Joseph Doyle on behalf of my mother, Sandra Doyle, who is the property owner in Pelican Bay. I've actually been coming to these public hearings for several years, stopped at COVID because it was -- doing the same thing over September 7, 2023 Page 9 and over again is the definition of insanity. Now that we have a new Board of County Commissioners, I felt it was wise to come again and make my plea. We've been listening, you know, to all these presentations. There's two sides to every story, and I think -- well, first of all, let's set the record straight that the assessment last year was $873.29. That will be a $61.71 increase, or 7.1 percent. You heard that there was a 6.4 percent increase in the operating and a 9 percent increase in the capital. The blended rate is 7.1. That is still higher than the rate of inflation, which is somewhere around 5.9, and it's also higher than the predicted cost-of-living adjustment for Social Security and federal pensions -- which is -- my mother is one of those beneficiaries -- of 3 percent. So even though the market might be whatever it is, I don't understand why the employees have to have higher than the 3 percent cost-of-living adjustment for one thing. We -- several of us have been watching an antiquated personnel management system. It used to be a blend of permanent county employees with day labor. It has -- the permanent employees have actually increased. I'm actually happy to hear that there are four vacancies because I think that those positions -- it's a good time to eliminate those. You know, we would like to see you, just because we know four of you signed the pledge, just out of matter of principle, to hold the assessment at the 873.29 as last year and let them figure out what they can do about the difference of the 429 -- or $472,000. For instance, that Lighting Fund they talked about, which is on the ad valorem side, it's -- it brings in 800,000, but they transfer 422,000 back over to the capital side. They haven't really needed to use the money in the Lighting Fund because it was determined in 2018 that the poles were actually going to have a 30 more -- 30-year September 7, 2023 Page 10 more life than necessary. So they -- instead of bringing down that millage rate, they decided to transfer that money over to the beautification and the ecosystem, the water management side. There's a lot of different moving parts here, and I don't expect you to understand all of that right now, and I don't have the time in six minutes to explain that all to you. I think that the budget needs to be reworked in the long run and possibly, instead of waiting to start until February or March, maybe start in November or December to really look at some of these things. Look at the personnel structure. We put in an expensive irrigation system over a three-year period, and we never realized any savings in labor, because it used to be a manual system, and now it's automated. So what I'm trying to say is, we don't -- Mother and I and others don't think that Pelican Bay is being managed as efficiently and as effectively as it has been, and so we're sick of seeing these assessments go up every year, okay? So it's just to send the message. It's not the matter of $61. It's the matter of controlling the budget. And I will let you know that the chairman of the advisory board, who is apparently also the chairman of the budget committee, is a Democrat. Now, I have friends who are Democrats and, in fact, there was a Democrat who was on the Board for 10 years. She was a fiscal conservative. But she was usually the lone woman out when it came to voting on this. Apparently, it's unanimous this year. Well, I don't know who the -- I don't know the makeup of all the other political ideologies of the rest. But I'll give you a little, you know, perspective there. In my opinion, we need more conservative fiscal management. And my point is, is if you don't give them this $473 increase -- $473,000 increase, they have other ways to make up that shortfall. September 7, 2023 Page 11 They have huge reserves, they usually have good carryover, and they happen to have a $10 million line of credit, which they've used some of. But between using all of that creatively, they can come up with the $473,000 to fill in this year's budget gap if you decide not to give them the ERU increase. The other thing is most of their revenue is solely based on this assessment. I would think that with the management of Clam Bay and Clam Pass and some other, that they could apply for some grants. Why does it always have to be taxes on the residents? What about doing some grant writing? They have four or five office staff. Have one or two of them get together and write some grants and bring in some grant money. Be creative. And, also, the other thing we should look at is the replacement of the vehicles and looking at maybe using a different timetable than what the County uses. Anyway, there are creative ways, and we hope you would just keep taxes the same. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Do you feel like you missed the main point? I don't want you to feel cut off, because you're the only speaker. This is an important issue. I mean, I'm not going to give you another 50 minutes or anything, but do you have any kind of sum-up or anything in your notes that -- I don't want you to feel like you were cut short, because this is an important decision for us. DR. DOYLE: Yeah. Well, the other thing, too, is that by ordinance, Pelican Bay usually only has this one hearing. In 2014, Chairman -- then Chairman Henning, as well as Georgia Hiller was the District 2 commissioner that year, led the effort for a two-week reprieve and brought this back at the second hearing. Usually we just get this one hearing, but I would like you to just let them know that they have to work with the 873.29 and that they can rework their figures over the next two weeks to figure out where in the budget September 7, 2023 Page 12 they're going to make those cuts and transfers and then bring it back in two weeks. Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I appreciated your email. I've got it right here, and it's full of notes. You know, your -- the comment that you made about just, you know, raising taxes -- and, I mean, I feel like I'm -- you know, my record speaks for itself. I'm proud to be a conservative Republican, but I don't let my party dictate every decision, you know, that I make but, you know, I have a set of core values. It's one thing to raise taxes. It's another thing when we have increased expenses and bills that we have to pay, and I think, at least for me personally, and I'll listen to have my colleagues chime in. Hurricane Ian certainly affected a lot of things, and it's not just Pelican Bay. I mean, I'm talking more in general. So sometimes the decision isn't, we're sitting here going, let's just arbitrarily raise taxes so we have more money to do fun things, but we have bills that we can't pay or we have damage that the budget -- and that's what I was -- you know, and I'll defer to Commissioner Hall because, I mean, this is his district, but we're all going to make the decision here but -- if there's any details maybe we're unaware of... But when I first looked at this -- and I didn't think the initial increase -- I didn't look at it as, like -- it is a tax increase, but I also -- we have a lot of details in here about damage and different things that have been talked about, and that's arguable, like you said, because there are ways. You say, yeah, those bills are real bills, but rather than just sort of dump it on the residents and ask for another, you know, 60 bucks or what have you, maybe you could be more creative. That's a point well taken. But on the flip side, I didn't look at it as just like, well, just increase the taxes. You know, there's significant costs -- additional September 7, 2023 Page 13 costs that were unforeseen that caught my attention. And it's, you know, how do we pay for it? You've given some, you know, unique options. I don't know if those have been considered or not but -- I'll see if I have any other statements. I just -- I appreciate your comments. I appreciated your note. You know, read through it. You know, like I said, I felt like if we did approve the increase, it was more because of the significant expenses and upgrades and things that needed to be done that were not accounted for. That was my initial thing. I didn't sit here feeling like I was just putting the "raise the taxes button" and I was pushing it, you know. I didn't feel that way at all here. There's some other things we're going to talk about later tonight where there's some decisions we could make that are basically just doing that. This one felt a little bit more unique to me because of that community. I won't say that I have 100 percent knowledge of every single moving part, but that's why we're here to, you know, talk about it, so... Okay. I appreciate your comments, Doctor. DR. DOYLE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Do we have any other speakers? MR. MILLER: Not for the Pelican Bay issue, no. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. COMMISSIONER HALL: I have a question for Mr. Dorrill. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. Oh, go ahead, sir. COMMISSIONER HALL: If we sent that back to you for two weeks, would that be an unfair ask? MR. COLEMAN: The chairman wouldn't be happy. COMMISSIONER HALL: What's that? MR. COLEMAN: The chairman wouldn't be happy. MR. DORRILL: Let me just submit -- I don't want to debate September 7, 2023 Page 14 Dr. Doyle. For whatever reason, he's chosen not to come to our meetings or any of the budget and finance committee meetings that we've had this year. That's his prerogative. I don't know how many advisory boards that this commission has. This is the only one that requires individuals to be elected and then confirmed from the community. So we conduct an election with the help of the Clerk every other year and have people run for office. And I'm a little offended by the comment that my chairman may be registered Democrat. That doesn't have anything to do with anything, and I find that a little bit offensive because he's an extraordinarily talented man who devoted an endless number of hours in spite of having a heart bypass surgery earlier this spring. And so I think the unintended consequence of kicking this, you know, back down the hill for two more weeks would be a little insulting on the part of the people who ran for office in this community. I've already told you I think the principal reason for the operating increase is labor. We still use a blended workforce, and we still hire day laborers when they are available in the current marketplace, so they are increasingly unavailable at the rates that were part of the annual bid that they had. Part of the tradeoff for the sidewalk replacement project was that Pelican Bay would be responsible for all of their drainage facilities. These are public roads owned by the Board of County Commissioners, but all of the drainage facilities and the conveyance pipes that get that water from the right-of-way to the nearest adjacent lake and work down through six different basins are now 40 years old. And we did a lake bank restoration drainage project last year. What was the final budget? MR. COLEMAN: Two point five. MR. DORRILL: Two point five million dollars, and they paid September 7, 2023 Page 15 cash for that. We had a recent drainage conveyance pipe failure that occurred adjacent to the first tee at the Club of Pelican Bay. What was the final cost on that? MR. COLEMAN: Hundred and ninety thousand. MR. DORRILL: Hundred and ninety thousand dollars. The infrastructure in Pelican Bay, believe it or not, is now 40 years old. So I think that we're -- as we look out on the horizon, I think they've been very physically conscious. At 935 bucks a year, those people get a lot of value for their money, but they're being asked to pay for things that typically are paid for through a master homeowners association or through the County Commission, and that's why I alluded to the fact that, in addition to the market-rate adjustment, the other issues with respect to drainage facilities and water management improvements that they are now responsible for, combined with the fact that they spend a lot of their money in support of Clam Bay on top of the tourist taxes that they receive. As your staff person, I will tell you that if you just kick this back to them for two weeks, they may increase the rate of the spending of the carryforward or the fund equity next year, but in certain cases their hands are tied because they pay for their own employees. They actually own their own motor pool fleet. We're not part of the motor pool where the mileage costs are -- will automatically result in a car being replaced at the end of its recommended life. They have to raise their own cash to pay for their own equipment. And in some cases -- you know, we now own and operate the beach rake at Pelican Bay, which is anew. But other than that, if you look down that column for expanded service requests on the front page, there are none. There are no expanded service requests in next year's budget. It's driven by capital improvements targeted towards their maintenance and operations building and drainage facilities and September 7, 2023 Page 16 the full year's cost of the market-rate adjustment that you so graciously gave in two phases earlier this year. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall. COMMISSIONER HALL: You did a good job explaining that. I'm real familiar with Pelican Bay. I'm in and out of it all the time. So if it wasn't for -- you know, I see the 1,015 in 2019. That was obviously after Irma. I do know that we had a bunch of issues after Ian, and because -- I don't like the 935 figure, but because of the Ian, I'll use Commissioner LoCastro's line, I like it a lot less, or I dislike it less. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I hate it less. COMMISSIONER HALL: I hate it less. I know that there was drainage issues. I know that there was beach restoration. I know there was -- the two beach facilities were done. I mean, Mr. Coleman, who's sitting there, was gracious enough to drive us by every single one of them, and there were some substantial damage. Going forward -- I'm going to make a motion to approve this but, going forward, I'm going to be very, very, very skeptical about going up from this. I mean, just so that you know where I stand for next year. This is my first rodeo, and I feel like I'm a little bit behind the eight ball here, but now -- you don't know till you know, and now I know. Did I say that too fast? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: No. It made perfect sense. COMMISSIONER HALL: So I'll make a motion to approve. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Did you have a question or -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: No. I'll second it. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Can I ask a question before we -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I do have a comment. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay, sir. Let me just ask a question. If you -- if we left it at 873.29, tell September 7, 2023 Page 17 me what happens or what doesn't happen. I mean, you know, because -- I mean, like you said, your board went through painstaking detail. I would expect part of that discussion would be not just coming in here and assuming it's 935 and, you know, here's everything that we're going to be able to do. Part of the strategy should be, what if they don't approve it? Okay. Then, you know -- the strategy should be you decide sort of before the vote so that you're ready to execute possibly, you know, not an increase, and I hope that that happened in some way. Sometimes it's not as deep of a dive, but it's definitely a good exercise to go through, and not that you come back and say, you won't believe it. They didn't approve it. Now what do we do? So let me just ask you flat out: If we disapprove this and keep you at the same rate, tell me what happens and tell me what doesn't happen. MR. DORRILL: Honestly, they would spend their fund equity position down in lieu of having that -- that $60 increase. Because your own fiscal policy does not give you the ability to say, oh, well, you work for Pelican Bay. You know that market rate increase we gave you, we're going to take some of that back because we can't fund it in Year 2. Or you know the operations facility that was destroyed -- and the workforce are currently eating lunch every day under a tarp. We've got two mobile trailer units, and then the men are outside eating under a tarp, and it's going to take probably a year and a half to construct the replacement facility. So it's not like we're not going to build the maintenance replacement facility or that we're going to take money out of the pockets of the employees. So the reality is, we'll spend the fund equity or the carryforward down to nothing in order to offset the operating and the capital program that we have intended for next year. September 7, 2023 Page 18 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Are you sitting on surplus money? I might be summarizing this incorrectly from Dr. Doyle, but he sort of alluded to that, you know, you're sitting on a fund, and, you know, sometimes it's an emergency fund or it's a surplus fund. Are you sitting on excessive funds for a rainy day that actually, you know, could be utilized now in lieu of an assessment increase? MR. DORRILL: I don't think so, and here's why: We're -- we're privileged, my business, to also manage the Pelican Marsh CDD and the Lely Resort CDD, the two largest next communities in this town. And I'll tell you, their year-ending fund balance is higher than what this will be at the end of the next year because they're spending down that fund equity position in order to offset what would otherwise be other increased revenues. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I mean, this will be my final comment, and maybe it's not even really relevant, but I drive through Pelican Bay a lot. I wanted to learn a lot more about it, spent half a day with your team out there right after Ian because I wanted to see the damage for myself. And for the beauty of that community, I can tell you the assessment is way less than some of the gated communities in my district. I mean, I've got people that live in some of the nicest gated communities that I would say are equal or maybe not even as impressive as Pelican Bay when it comes to service and all the things that you do, and they're complaining about assessments that are way more than 935. And I realize it may not be apples to apples, but I was kind of surprised at how much you get done in that community with the funds that you do have. And, you know, I have commissioners lit up here, but that's my say. Commissioner McDaniel, sir. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah. And this goes back to a similar discussion. And, again, I'm in support of the motion to September 7, 2023 Page 19 move this forward. I have an enormous amount of respect for the board and the inordinate amount of work that went into develop this budget, but was there -- and I wasn't there, but was there -- or was there exploration of alternate revenue sources, maybe an adjustment in the ad valorem rate as opposed to the fixed expense with the non-ad valorem assessment? MR. DORRILL: You know, about 80 percent of the total revenue come from that flat rate of assessment, and that has been their model -- the Board of County Commissioners took over this district in 1992. Prior to that, they were an independent district similar to the Mosquito Control District or Immokalee Water and Sewer District. And when the County Commission assumed the responsibilities in '92, they have always used the flat rate of assessment and also the ad valorem millage because that was the Board's policy at that time for streetlighting. The one thing they can't control is the annual, you know, assessed value. And so as they have -- as they have had additional funds in terms of what the forecast value was and the final value, they've moved that money into reserves. They're not spending up that money, and so that becomes a basis for reserve. But the primary source of funds here are the non-ad valorem assessment. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you, Chairman. I was -- it was interesting listening to the doctor at one point, and he kind of opened my eyes to some things. And you just referred back to the Lighting Fund and how you received your money in there. And he had made a comment that you had moved some money back and forth or hadn't moved money or thought of moving money. September 7, 2023 Page 20 MR. DORRILL: Two years ago, the advisory board recommended that any surplus funds within their streetlighting district would be kept and placed in reserves so that it could offset capital projects like this sidewalk project that I alluded to. But for the current year, that's a fair question. So within Fund 778 -- that is our streetlighting fund -- the total millage-related revenue in that case for the coming year is 797,500, and the amount of the transfer -- I don't want to misspeak here. The amount of the transfer back is approximately 400- of that. The adopted budget this year was 743,000. The projected, based off the assessed value, is 797. So the delta there is about $54,000. And so that increases the money that otherwise is going to go in support of the capital program. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. So when the board's back and everybody's discussed a lot of things -- MR. DORRILL: This board voted and authorized that change two years ago. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I mean, I'm saying your board, when you brought the budget and agreed to the budget -- MR. DORRILL: They recommended that change two years ago, yes, sir. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So then saying -- we've had two major storms that hit us, 2017 and again just last year. This September 27th will be our anniversary, I believe. And a lot of things were damaged. I have to assume they were damaged in Pelican -- you know, in your community just like every -- or the community we're talking about right now, just like anything else. And things -- repairs were done? MR. DORRILL: Extensive repairs were done to the streetlighting because of the junction boxes and the wiring that was along the main boulevard. They were under four feet of saltwater. September 7, 2023 Page 21 And so the substantial repairs were undertaken as a result of Hurricane Ian a year ago. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So we've taken consideration now that a lot of this newer infrastructure is newer and better than it was prior to these two storms? MR. DORRILL: Yeah. And they have an extensive lake irritation program, too, and we had similar -- we lost all of the controllers and all of the nematic pumps for all of the lakes within that same area, and they all had to be rebuilt, and while we have gotten partial insurance proceeds and zero FEMA dollars at this point back to our funds, they've had to advance that with their own cash in order to offset, you know, awaiting the insurance money that hopefully will come at some point in addition to whatever FEMA money that we're eligible for. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. So there is a possibility you may get something from FEMA in the future? MR. DORRILL: Yeah. I mean, back to your main point -- and I hear you. And, you know, frankly, we respect the Doyles. They have been a force there for many, many years. But if we were at this point next year and not having to spend that kind of cash for repairs to restore lake aeration and streetlighting and irrigation control boxes and things like that, I would say we wouldn't take that extra 53,000. We'd go to the rolled-back rate next year. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: We have a motion and a second, but before I call for a vote -- I'm going to support this, but I want to give some clarification. Pelican Bay is a unique community. So we can get stones thrown at us for all kinds of thing, and you can call every bill a tax, but I look at this as a bill for services. If you elect to live in Pelican September 7, 2023 Page 22 Bay and you want to have the beautiful streetlights and your streets look like Disney World and, I mean -- it's a very unique community extremely impressive. And like I said, I have gated communities in my district that are equally as impressive, but they write quite a bit of a larger check. So, you know, I might be naive, but I don't look at this as just sort of like a straight flat tax. I look at this as a bill for living in Pelican Bay. And, you know, you can live wherever you want, and if you think that this is too high of a fee for all of the services that you get, then, you know, you can move somewhere else where there isn't a tax. I mean, I don't pay, you know, an additional -- I mean, I pay taxes where I live, but I don't pay this, you know, additional, you know, fee, but I also don't get a whole bunch of services that you get at Pelican Bay. So, you know, I look at it as a bill for services, but, I mean -- correct me if I'm wrong. MR. DORRILL: I appreciate that. But I would just tell you that for $935, these people get incredible value for that, and a very high level of public works type services in support of their community. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. Well, we've got a motion on the floor from Commissioner Hall. I've got a second from Commissioner McDaniel. All in favor? COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed? (No response.) September 7, 2023 Page 23 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously. MR. DORRILL: Thank you, all. MR. FINN: Very good. Thank you, Neil. Our agenda indicates that we're going to adjourn the Pelican Bay and commence the public hearing for the Board of County Commissioners budget. **** MR. FINN: Accordingly -- so this is advertised public hearing for the Board of County Commissioners Fiscal Year 2024 tentative budget. We're going to look at that budget now, but before we begin, I'm going to just give you a quick outline of where we've -- where we've been on this path towards our first public hearing. In December, staff commenced developing our budget policy. On March 14th, the Board approved that budget policy. Between March and April, the constitutionals and the County Manager's agency developed their budgets. In May, the County Manager reviewed those budgets. In June, we had a BCC workshop on the budget. July 1st, we had the certified taxable value come in from the Property Appraiser. July 11th, the Board approved a resolution approving the maximum millage rates, which are the millage rates we'll be looking at this evening. On July 14th, staff provided the Board with the tentative FY '23 budget. On July 21st, the County provided millage rates and rollback to the Property Appraiser. On August 14th, the Property Appraiser provided the TRIM notice to the property owners of the County, and that brings us to this evening, September 7th, the first of two public hearings on the budget. Additionally, we utilized our additional summer sessions, September 7, 2023 Page 24 second meeting in July, to review budget compliance subsequent to our budget hearings, and in the first meeting in August, we also reviewed the unfunded request list. With that overview, we'll -- welcome to the first of two public hearings -- this is a scripted thing, so I apologize if it sounds scripted. Welcome to the first of two public hearings on the Collier County Government Fiscal Year 2024 budget, which begins October 1, 2023, and runs through September 30, 2024. The public budget hearings in September must follow a specific format pursuant to State of Florida Truth in Millage guidelines. This presentation is a scripted agenda pursuant to those -- to the TRIM statute. So we'll read a few things into the record, as we normally do, and then there'll be time for public comment and move into the action items on the agenda item. Your agenda contains a specific sequence of agenda items to be covered. Pursuant to statute, this hearing was advertised as part of the TRIM notice mailed to all Collier County property owners on or about the week of August 14th. The final budget hearing is two weeks from tonight, scheduled for September 21, 2023. The final hearing will be noticed as part of the statutory advertising requirement contained in the truth in millage statutes. The final hearing notice will be a notice of proposed tax increase advertisement and will appear in the Naples Daily News on September 18th, 2023. This type of advertisement is necessary since the County's tentative adopted aggregate millage rate is greater than the current year aggregate rolled-back rate. Final tax rate and budget decisions will be made at this final hearing on September 21, 2023. Agenda -- as is customary, agenda and speaker slips are available in the hallway. Anyone interested in addressing the Board regarding the county budget must complete a speaker slip. Mr. Miller will collect the speaker slips. September 7, 2023 Page 25 Following some introductory remarks regarding tax rates and changes to the tentative budget released in mid-July, there'll be an opportunity under Agenda Item 1C for public comment. Speakers will be called by name. The TRIM notice mailed to all property owners indicated that as of close of business tomorrow, September 8th, 2023, is the deadline for property owners to contact the Property Appraiser and file a petition for market-rate adjustment with the Value Adjustment Board. With that, a few more introductory statements. With a proposed millage-neutral budget, that is the same millage rates as last year, the increase in tax bills this year is attributed to the rise in taxable value, increases in overall market value this year of over 20 percent from 185 billion to 222 billion countywide. The Florida Constitution provides a 3 percent limit to the annual assessed value increase for homestead property for all taxing authorities and a 10 percent limit to the annual assessed value increase for non-homestead property for all authorities with the exception of state and local school boards. As a result, a typical homestead property owner saw a modest increase in overall taxes due this year, and non-homestead property owners were limited to a 10 percent increase, at least insofar as it pertains to county taxes. At this point, we're going to move to Item 1A, which is a discussion of tentative millage rates and increases over the rolled-back millage rates. The first substantive issue to be discussed is percentage increase in millage over the rolled-back rate needed to fund the budget and the reasons ad valorem tax revenues above the rolled back, as calculated on the state DR420 forms, are being increased. A rolled-back tax rate is defined as the tax rate necessary to generate the prior year tax revenues, and this tax rate is calculated not September 7, 2023 Page 26 including taxable values associated with new construction, additions, deletions, and rehab-type improvements. The Board-adopted budget guidance for FY '24 included a millage-neutral operating levy of 3.5645 for the General Fund. This is the same tax rate as last year and, for that matter, since 2010 for the General Fund. Including the 0.25 Conservation Collier millage and the 0.0293 Water Pollution Control millage, the countywide millage totals 3.8438 mills. For the Unincorporated Area General Fund, the millage rate was, once again, set at 0.8069 pursuant to Board guidance. Levies for the General Fund and Unincorporated Area General Fund together represent the majority of the total aggregate taxes levied across all Collier County taxing authorities for FY '24. The FY '24 tentative General Fund and Unincorporated Area General Fund operating and capital budgets, as presented, are based on Board-approved budget guidance. Both the General Fund 001, new No. 0001, and in the Unincorporated Area General Fund, previous No. 111, new No. 1011, proposed tax rates are higher than the rolled-back rate. Collier County taxable value has increased for FY '24 by 13.52 percent countywide and 13.97 within the General Fund/Unincorporated Area General Fund. Within an increasing taxable value environment, under millage neutral, or the same millage as last year, the rolled-back tax rate will be lower than the millage-neutral rate, and this, in fact, is the case. Slide 9. The General Fund budget model places a premium on fiscal flexibility, preserving and protecting required cash balances, maintaining adequate reserves for a coastal location, ensuring that the County's investment quality rating remains high, and allocating resources to maintain our substantial public safety capital September 7, 2023 Page 27 infrastructure and operational investment. Mindful of this model and fiscal philosophy, the Board enacts budget policy that includes tax-rate policy and budget decisions that help us achieve these goals. That's our overall mission here. Referring to Exhibit 1A, Page 1, millage rates for each Collier County taxing authority have been established pursuant to Board guidance. The roster of tax rates adopted by the Board on July 11th, 2023, represent the maximum property tax rates that can be levied in FY '24. The cumulative aggregate rolled-back rate for all Collier County taxing authorities, exclusive of debt service, totals 4.0025 per thousand dollars of taxable value. The proposed aggregate tax rate for all Collier County taxing authorities, exclusive of debt, totals 4.4397 per thousand dollars of taxable value. This represents an increase of 10.92 percent over the aggregate rolled-back rate and necessitates a notice of proposed tax increase advertisement for TRIM purposes and not simply a budget summary advertisement. Final, millage rates will be adopted by the Board on September 21, 2023. Required discussion of the review of changes to the tentative budget: For tonight's hearing, changes from the '24 July tentative budget, as noted within Exhibit 1B, pertain to receipt of the customary Tax Collector budget, which was received in August; addition of items contained in the unfunded request lists per Board direction provided on 8/8/23; adjustments to Hurricane-Ian-related loans in FY '23 in order to re-establish the funding mechanism in FY '24 for the continued recovery efforts; adjustments to certain funds reflecting FY '23 revenue and expense changes which resulted in adjustments to 2024 carryforward adjustments for position transfers and reclassifications; and other customary and routine revenue or expense adjustments required to support capital projects or operations September 7, 2023 Page 28 as the FY '24 fiscal year begins. These fund-level adjustments occur as a matter of normal operations or are necessary in accordance with previous Board action or direction. Detailed budget resolution changes are found within Exhibit B, Pages 3 through 16. A summary of these actions is described within Exhibit 1B, Pages 1 and 2. The total gross budget changes amount to 60.4 million, of which 34 million is the customary submittal of the Tax Collector's total commission budget to the Department of Revenue, which occurs on August 1st. According to the Tax Collector's statement to commission is expenditure -- and expenditures, the FY '24 budget's $34,045,300 and is offset by service commission or charges for service. Tax Collector is a fee-based operation and provides collection services for all county taxing authorities. Turnback from the Tax Collector, as well as all constitutional officers, is significant each year and represents excess commissions over actual expenses required to run their operations. Year-ending turnback by the Tax Collector to the General Fund for FY '22 totaled $6,887,623. Turnback from all constitutional officers to the General Fund for the same period totaled $10,270,710. There are no proposed changes to the millage rates set by the Board on July 11th, 2023. Thank you for your indulgence on that, Mr. Chairman, members of the Board. At this point, our agenda calls for the public comment, if it pleases the Chair. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. I had some comments, but I don't think they're appropriate yet. Do we have public speakers? MR. MILLER: Yes, sir. We have three here in the room and September 7, 2023 Page 29 three on Zoom. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It may be more appropriate to hear from our public first. MR. MILLER: Your first speaker here in the room is Keith Flaugh. He's been ceded three additional minutes from Sandy Doyle, who is in the back, and he'll be followed by Tim Moshier. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. MR. FLAUGH: Good evening, Board. For the record, my name is Keith Flaugh, resident on Marco Island. This is going to sound like -- a bit like a sermon, and I don't mean it to be that way. I hope you take my comments in a very constructive way, as I intend them to be. So I ask a rhetorical question. Why did you get elected? I assert that it was on the basic conservative principles of one protecting the rights of Collier citizens, for which you're off to an amazing start, so thank you; less government; and more efficient government. The four of you members did sign the no tax pledge, and it simply says, "I pledge to the taxpayers of Collier County that I would reject any and all efforts to raise taxes." You look up Webster. "Any and all," it's pretty clear; it's every. Florida Statute 200.065 makes it very clear that any millage rate times property values that raises more ad valorem revenue than the prior year is a tax increase. That's under Florida law. The definition of the rolled-back rate is that rate which, times those property values, generates the same revenue as the prior year. For many years, Commissioner McDaniel has urged the adoption of a zero-based budget. What is zero-based budgeting? First of all, it's really, really hard. It starts with a formal specific set of goals, and I would assert that it includes the following: A clear recognition of the need to change the employee culture from September 7, 2023 Page 30 entitlement to rewarding, instead productivity and approved efficiency. Believe me, your staff knows who the real dead weight are and who -- the real people doing the work, and many of them will applaud you putting that back into the right perspective. It also includes an understanding that almost all of your expenses are people-driven. People drive programs. And it requires -- and this is where it gets really tough. It requires the reengineering of processes. You've got to change the way you do business, and it requires a serious examination of programs, including elimination, consolidation, et cetera, of both programs and staff. I assert that the Collier voters who elected you on these principles mentioned above strongly believe you are there to set real policies. Demand that the senior staff respond to your goals with real solutions. Don't get sucked into managing -- micromanaging details. If you do, you've lost before you start. My experience as a finance executive with IBM is the first thing the staffs will do is come back to you with what I call sacred cows. All of the important things that they can hold you up to the public and say, we're giving up services. Please don't fall into that trap. This is where it gets really tough and where the setting of the goals is so critical. I'd like to -- granted, my potential experience is business and not government. But I'd like to share a quick story. I was an IBM executive. In 1993, we had 410,000 employees. Eighteen -- we fired our board. We were three months away from going out of business. We brought in an outside consultant -- or man to run the company, changed the culture of lifetime employment, fired half of our people. I had to fire half of my team of 70 people, had to reengineer my processes, as did the rest of the company, and my revenue productivity went up 30 percent with half the people. September 7, 2023 Page 31 Granted, that was business. But, gentlemen, bureaucracies are bureaucracies. And is there any one of you who seriously believes that our government at every level has not become bloated? I think in your hearts every one of you know that's the case. That's why you ran. Again, it's really tough, and it will require at least a major -- supermajority of you to set these hard goals and to provide the leadership required to put the efficiency and productivity back into local government. It absolutely requires a change in employee and management culture. That's where it gets really tough. One serious suggestion for you is hire a proven consultant with proven results in zero-based budgeting in government. You do that for a couple reasons: One, they're going to be able to come in and help you reengineer the processes that we've lived with forever, and people struggle really hard to change the way they've been doing business. And the second thing it does is it lets them be the bad guys, and you guys step back and manage the policy. So I urge you to hold your -- to your no-tax pledge, vote to hold -- to the rolled-back rates. As I look at the numbers, that's 60 million bucks on a $2 billion base; that's 3 percent. Is there any one of you who don't believe that you can -- you can manage a way through a 3 percent reduction in your staffs and what they do? So I implore you to be leaders, to be aggressive, and to take charge of accomplishing what I think you were elected to get -- to be elected for. So thank you. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Chairman, could I ask a question? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Actually, you made some excellent points, but I do have a question in reference to the 3 percent reduction. September 7, 2023 Page 32 We do have a large budget. Now, there's only a certain portion of that budget that we have a lot of control over, so -- for example, the Sheriff's budget. And we have all strongly supported the Sheriff. Every year I've been on this board, we've given the Sheriff what he needed to keep us safe, and we'll continue to do that. I don't know what the percentage of our overall budget is the Sheriff's budget. Mr. Finn, do you know that, approximately? Just approximately. MR. FINN: Maybe Chris could help me out. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Over 30 percent. MR. FINN: When you talk about cutting, of course, we're just dealing with tax funds. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Ed, I'm just asking -- MR. FINN: I gotcha. I'm just going to give Chris a second to get to the portion of the -- MR. JOHNSON: The total budget, it's around 270 million. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Just a percentage of what the Sheriff's budget is of our overall budget in terms of our ad valorem budget. MR. JOHNSON: The ad valorem budget? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah. MR. JOHNSON: Okay. Give me one second. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Just approximately. I'm just -- I'm not looking for -- I mean it -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It's about 30 percent. MR. JOHNSON: Approximately 37, 38 percent. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. So 37 percent of that overall budget; we have a little bit of a problem in cutting that, even if it's only 3 percent. We have the same thing with the other constitutional officers. Now, their budgets are much smaller, and I don't know what the overall impact of that would be. But the reason I mention that is when you said that we have an overall budget of a September 7, 2023 Page 33 billion dollars, or whatever the number is -- MR. FLAUGH: It's two. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- two, and, you know, a 50 or $60 million reduction is only 3 percent of that overall budget, that is true, but we have to deal with the portion of the budget that we can handle without imposing a burden on the Sheriff's Department. So that's just an example. I'm not disagreeing with you. But I think if you look at it from that perspective, maybe that $50 million is a little -- a little different than just a -- MR. FLAUGH: I hear you. I would argue that 3 percent is a small number, and if it's 6 percent on that, less that 37 percent, that's still a reasonable goal for you guys to set. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Understood. MR. FLAUGH: Okay. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall. COMMISSIONER HALL: Mr. Flaugh, good job. I do have a question, though, for -- you say zero-based budget. What is the zero? MR. FLAUGH: Zero is going back to absolute base and justifying every individual, every program based on the set of goals that you, I would assert, need to put in place. COMMISSIONER HALL: Gotcha. MR. FLAUGH: So it's -- what most businesses do, frankly, and what most governments do is just start with last year's and keep adding based on the cost of, you know, inflation rates and blah, blah, blah. COMMISSIONER HALL: I've always done zero-based budget. I just didn't know it was zero-based budget. MR. FLAUGH: You start with zero and you re-justify. COMMISSIONER HALL: Gotcha. MR. FLAUGH: But the most important part of that is September 7, 2023 Page 34 reengineering your process. I couldn't have increased my productivity with half of my people without changing the way I did business. That's hard. But it takes real leadership, and it takes a mindset that you're going to change the culture. And if you don't change the culture, then you don't -- you're going to continue to grow ad infinitum. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I actually have two questions, one for you, because it raised a good question. MR. FLAUGH: You done with me, or do you want me to -- COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I want to ask you something, too, also, Mr. Flaugh. Thank you. What was the budget that the Sheriff asked for last budget year compared to what it is this year? MR. JOHNSON: Last year, the Sheriff's budget was -- bear with me here. It was 237 million. This year it's 255 million, including the portion that comes from the BCC. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So that's close to the 30 million that Mr. Flaugh's talking about, the difference, correct, of the 3 percent? MR. JOHNSON: About 20 million; $20 million. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: It's like a little over $20 million. MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So -- and I'm surely not one that wants to defund the police in any way, you know. MR. FLAUGH: I'm not suggesting that, sir. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: It's very sacred to me and I think everybody else on this board. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: It's sacred to all of us. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I want to give the Sheriff the $255 million that he's asking for. September 7, 2023 Page 35 And so what Commissioner Saunders says, now you have to look at that formula, now what we actually can do and can't do, what's left of that because of the constitutional officer's request. And I guess my second question is for Mr. Flaugh. Can you tell me how many people are going to move into Collier County in 2024? MR. FLAUGH: No. I mean, I'm sure your staff has got estimates of that. And I'm not sure -- COMMISSIONER KOWAL: How do we prepare for that? MR. FLAUGH: Through credible management skills and projecting those. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Because I know you want to use a model that you use in industry, compare it to government, but we have no prediction of how many people are going to move here next year. I mean, compared to history, we have thousands that move here every year. Sometimes we don't and sometimes we do, you know. And I understand the rolled-back rate, but I also understand that if there's thousands of more people using our roads, our infrastructure, our water, our sewers and things like that, how do we project that? MR. FLAUGH: I'm sure there are ways to project the growth. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: No, but I'm talking the price we put on the growth. How do we project that? MR. FLAUGH: I'm sorry. And I don't mean to be offensive, but you're doing to me just what I suggested you don't do. You're managing a $2 billion business. Do you or do you not believe there's any bloat in that as a government agency? COMMISSIONER KOWAL: What I'm saying is I believe that -- I don't believe in raising the millage rate; I don't. If anything, I believe in trying to find a way to lower it a bit. But at the same time, you want to use something against us saying that if we don't roll September 7, 2023 Page 36 it to the rolled-back rate, we're raising taxes. MR. FLAUGH: No, that's not my definition, sir. That's the definition of the statute. 200.065 is a statute. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Once again, does the statute take into consideration the amount of population increase over a year? Does it take in the amount of inflation? Does it take in the cost of electricity? Does it take in the cost of fuel? Does it take those things into consideration, or is it just a one-size-fits-all type thing for every 67 counties in the state of Florida? MR. FLAUGH: The statute's the statute, sir, and if you believe in the rule of law, you follow the statute or change it. You don't make excuses for why you can't. I'm sorry. I get this on the school board side of all -- (Simultaneous crosstalk.) COMMISSIONER KOWAL: -- raising taxes or keeping taxes the same. That's all I'm trying to say. MR. FLAUGH: The law says that you're raising taxes if the increase in property -- if the new property values times the rate you use generates more revenue than the prior year. That's the law -- the definition in law. I didn't make that up. The State did. You've sworn an oath to defend that -- the Constitution and the laws of the state. That's the law. Change the law if you don't like it, but follow the law, but recognize that we have -- throughout this land we have bloated governments, and somehow we have to figure out how to manage those rather than just keep adding to them every year. I want to go back to something I said earlier. I'm not -- it's -- this is not me, right? I think this is a large number of your constituents who elected you for more efficient government and lower government. That's why you got elected. All I'm asking you to do is honor that. I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I'm just saying, we still have a September 7, 2023 Page 37 duty to pay the bills, correct? MR. FLAUGH: Under the law. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yes, we do, first. MR. FLAUGH: Under the law. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: And that's what I'm saying. Nobody has a crystal ball to say what that's going to be. MR. FLAUGH: But you know what the law is and what the law requires. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. I've heard that. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: If I might -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Well, let me go to Commissioner McDaniel, and then -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: That's fine. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Is that okay? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Oh, sure. Absolutely. MR. FLAUGH: I'm sorry I lost my temper, by the way. This is hard stuff. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: This is good, healthy discussion. MR. FLAUGH: This is really hard stuff that we're talking about. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let me go to Commissioner McDaniel. Sir, go ahead. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Mr. Flaugh and I speak on a regular basis, so I don't really -- I don't -- this -- my comment when I hit my light was just to further the explanation of the -- which Mr. Flaugh did mention. I talked for many, many years about exploration of a zero-based budget process, and I would really, really like for us to move in that regard. Now, I have also learned that that's the old-guy accounting methodology these days. I also know that it's an extremely arduous September 7, 2023 Page 38 process to be able to get through, but I think the foundation that this board has already set up beginning this year in adjusting our board schedule, working year-round, adjustment of our vision statement, mission statement, business plan, and budget priorities, we are beginning to have the discussions with regard -- to be able to move in that regard. So I have -- my comments had to do with a better -- or a different explanation over here for my colleague -- COMMISSIONER HALL: Thank you. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- on the zero-based budget. MR. FLAUGH: Really hard work what I'm suggesting. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Wicked. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you. And, quite frankly, I didn't know you were getting mad. I thought you were just being passionate, so don't ever -- you don't need to apologize for that. MR. FLAUGH: Well, sometimes my voice goes up, and I am very passionate about this, so thank you. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We all do it. Again, I think you've made -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Where are our guards? We usually have, like, sheriffs in here and stuff. You know, for this meeting there should be twice as many. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Not this one. The last meeting. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I want to -- you made some really good points, and Commissioner Kowal has made some excellent points as well. And this is really -- I mean, we're now talking about the elephant in the room, and that is what millage rate are we going to set? That's really the whole issue that we're going to September 7, 2023 Page 39 be debating. And I don't know where that's going to go. You know, if there's a motion and second to go to the rolled-back millage rate, I suspect that that will pass, and then we'll have to figure out what to do with it. And I think that would make a lot of people very happy, and I think it would make a lot of people very unhappy because of the impact. So I want to talk a little bit about the impacts. And I'm not making any commitment to go one way or the other. I'm just saying that's the real gut of the issue here. So you're talking about a $2 billion budget, and I'm trying to focus in on what we really have some real serious flexibility over. What portion of this $2 billion are we really talking about? So out of that $2 billion -- and this is a question for staff. I suspect that out of that $2 billion we have Solid Waste Department, which is contracted out, and we have collections for that. I'm assuming that our water and sewer collections and expenses are included in that. So what I'd like to do is just kind of get an idea -- we have a $2 billion budget, and if we're going to cut $60 million out of a $2 billion budget, that doesn't sound like a whole lot, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about cutting $60 million out of a much smaller pie than this 2 billion, and that's what I'm trying to get at. Can you give us -- spend a few minutes, if you don't mind -- MR. JOHNSON: Yes, Commissioner, I'll -- (Simultaneous crosstalk.) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Definition. MR. JOHNSON: -- give you an overview. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: What's included in this $2 billion budget, and then when we go back to the rolled-back millage rate, what piece of this $2 billion budget are we cutting September 7, 2023 Page 40 60 million out of? MR. JOHNSON: So as it pertains to the ad valorem and millage rates, the total -- the total budget that we have proposed includes $615 million of ad valorem taxes. So $60 million is approximately 10 percent of the ad valorem that you would be collecting. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So our ad valorem budget is just north of 600 million? MR. JOHNSON: Correct. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. And if we go to the rolled-back millage rate, our ad valorem revenues would be? MR. JOHNSON: Five fifty-three. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Five fifty. Okay. I just want to put in some perspective that we're not talking about 3 percent of $2 billion. We're talking about 10 percent of 600 million where we have some flexibility. And we don't have a whole lot of flexibility in that, because 250 million of that 600 million is the Sheriff's budget, which none of us are going to touch. As a matter of fact, just so everyone remembers, we set the Sheriff's budget in September of last year, and I believe at some time in the interim, the Sheriff came to us and said he needs more money prior to the new budget year because he needs to raise salaries for retention of employee. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Correct. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Am I wrong on that? MR. FINN: No, sir, that's correct. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Now, I don't know what that number was, but it was a big number. It was several million dollars. MR. FINN: Yes. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: And so we had to dig deep into our reserves to fund the Sheriff in the middle of a budget year September 7, 2023 Page 41 because we were not going to want -- we were not going to reduce his ability to defend us, keep us safe from crime, by even one penny. And so when you get into this -- this 2 percent or this 3 percent cut, that's not really what we're talking about. We're actually going to be getting down to cutting $50 million out of a $350 million budget, I believe, if you eliminate the Sheriff's Department out of it. Now, that's cutting deep. And so I just -- you know, like I said, if there's a motion and a second to go to the rolled-back millage rate, it will pass, but we need to understand what the impact of that is. That's all. I'm not prejudging how I would vote. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Thank you, sir. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Could I just say something real quick? Mr. Flaugh, you know, we had this conversation over coffee a while back, and we both kind of like -- we look at cutting taxes as cutting taxes, you know, and what -- we kind of both disagree and, you know, I get it, but, you know, it's the perspective of the way I look at it and I think the way you look at it. And, you know, I appreciate everything you do, and I appreciate everything you help with with this community and, you know, and what you are and the pillar you are with the voice you carry here, so I -- you know, it is what it is. But, you know, I know that day we had that conversation over coffee, and I'm just -- MR. FLAUGH: We did. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: You know, I'm just trying to figure out, you know, like, my opinion and what I have to look down the road what it's going to cost to keep this place running and keep us safe and these things. And, you know, I don't want to raise the millage rate, and I'm not going to raise the millage rate. I said that. September 7, 2023 Page 42 I will not raise the taxes and -- but we still have to make it work because we owe that to the citizens of Collier County. So thank you. MR. FLAUGH: I said it from the beginning; what I'm proposing is really, really hard, and there's lots of reasons to talk yourself out of it. So thank you for your time. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chair, your next public speaker is Tim Moshier. He'll be followed by Dr. Joseph Doyle. MR. MOSHIER: Good evening, Commissioners. Thanks for the time this evening. I'm Tim Moshier, one of the newly elected school board members. I signed the pledge -- same tax pledge as you guys did last year, and I'm tonight here in solidarity to honor the commitment to the voters. I applaud you in your efforts this evening in the budget spending as well as keep property taxes low for the residents and many whom are still facing expenses from Hurricane Ian as well as dealing with the inflation of the president. It also sends a signal to the community that we are committed to keeping housing affordable for the first responders, teachers, and service workers. The school board is looking to propose a budget from the superintendent and her staff of a property of increase of 10.66 percent, which is well over a hundred million dollars. I was not successful at our first budget meeting in July to convince my colleagues to change -- you know, even to look at any other rates or anything, so I kind of got blown out of the water with that. It takes some bold moves, as you're taking this evening, to look at the actual rates and where we can save and what we can't save, because we have a couple different rolled-back rates from the State September 7, 2023 Page 43 than you guys have. And I also invite you to the school board meeting on Monday at 4:30. We're going to be discussing our budget at this time on September 11th. I just want to thank you for your time and, you know, look forward to seeing what you guys come up with. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Dr. Joseph Doyle, he will be followed on Zoom by Kathy Raimondi. DR. DOYLE: Good evening, Commissioners. Dr. Joseph Doyle. I'm here because the Lighting Fund for Pelican Bay falls under this part -- this tax hearing. And I know we already discussed some of it, but I just wanted to actually set the record straight from the first hearing. The 935 is just for the beautification and the maintenance of the streets and everything. We just got assessed 2,195 from the Pelican Bay Foundation to repair the restaurants and the other buildings that -- and the recreational facilities that we all participate in, plus we pay $2,000 a quarter -- or, no, $2,000 a year for the use of the Pelican Bay facilities. So the total bill on an annual basis is over $4,000 a year to live in Pelican Bay for that. So I just wanted to make that point. (Simultaneous crosstalk.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- since we voted on that already. DR. DOYLE: I know, but I just wanted to clarify, because Mr. Dorrill -- I didn't have a chance to rebut what he said. I just wanted to clarify that. I think it was a little misleading. But, anyway, I'm here for the Lighting Fund. And as he did say, they're going to raise $800,000 for the Lighting Fund, and 422- is going to be transferred over to a capital -- to the Capital Fund for the rest of the beautification things. September 7, 2023 Page 44 You know, you could debate whether they really should be collecting all of that millage. I know it's -- again, it's the principle of the matter. I think that they should live within the rolled-back rate that we're trying to do for the rest of the county when it comes to that Lighting Fund, and it's a $54,000 increase this year over last year if you're looking at the rolled-back rate. Now, I heard your -- you know, your discussion with Mr. Flaugh, and it is difficult. I have an article here, actually, that came off from the Clerk. She just put this in her newsletter. She actually is a donor county to the rest of the clerks in the rest -- in the state. And in order to make her budget, you guys are subsidizing her over $400,000 a year so that she can continue to operate what she needs. We need reform there so that you don't have to give the 400,000 to her. Again, as I mentioned with the other tax hearing, we need to be creative on what we're doing. Now, getting back to the Sheriff, last year the ad valorem was 529 million. As you were saying, it's, like, around 600 million. This year, with the rollback, will be 553. So we have the money for the Sheriff between last year and the rollback. Anyway, we need to be creative. Again, I know that this is one of your sacred cows, Commissioner, but Conservation Collier, .25 mills. It was voluntary. The rollback would be .2. Well, you know, you could actually cut it back further. You know, we can leave some things in place for the Sheriff. Cut back other programs more. I know it's painful. Keith just said that. You may have to bring Conservancy Collier down to .1 mill or .125, half of the two point -- so that's all I'm just saying is let's be creative. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Chairman, might I make a comment and ask staff a question on that? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sure. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Actually, Conservation September 7, 2023 Page 45 Collier is something I do support, and that was -- I think it passed by about 80 percent of the voters. And it is collecting more money than was anticipated. The 2.5 [sic] mills, I think, is going to generate somewhere around $30 million or -- MR. JOHNSON: About 35. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thirty-five million. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thirty. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: And so if there is a rollback in the millage rate, it can be made up -- some of it can be made up in that fund. There's no question about that. And I know -- I think Commissioner McDaniel had mentioned that in prior -- in a prior year -- it may have been even last year -- that we could roll the millage rate back and take all of that out of the Conservation Collier, and I think there is probably some flexibility there. I don't think that it is a reasonable way for this government to go to go to the total rolled-back millage rate. That may be something that certain conservative Republicans would say, well, that's against what the public will is, but I don't think it is. I think in this community we love having these beautiful medians. We love having your beaches clean. We know that there's a lot of traffic congestion, but we also know that we're spending hundreds of millions of dollars building new roads. And so we're really -- you know, this is a beautiful place to live, and I think most people want to keep it that way. And so I don't think it's a violation of any pledge or anything to the voters to try to keep maintaining that beautiful community that we have. But maybe there is some flexibility in that. DR. DOYLE: Commissioner, could I say one thing? I agree with you. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Absolutely. DR. DOYLE: Because we tried to do this with the school September 7, 2023 Page 46 board at the end of July, and I said, we don't have to do -- what you say about the pledge, we don't have to do it all in one year. I wanted to do it over two years. In other words, let's do -- and Commissioner Kowal's comment about inflation and electricity and all that. It's too severe to go to the rollback in one year. Maybe we go halfway to the rollback and then look at the following -- you know, make this a process over a two-to-three-year period. Then next year we can look at the zero-based budgeting to get even more closer to the rollback. You know, it's a process. I don't -- when we had -- even when we signed up for Conservation Collier, times were good. We didn't have all this inflation, and people didn't -- we didn't have Hurricane Ian and people are paying out of pocket for stuff not covered by insurance and stuff. It's a whole new -- it's a new setting. And, you know -- but do we have to do -- get there in one year, no, but let's look at a process. That's all I'm trying to say. And also, you know, as far as Pelican Bay goes with that Lighting Fund, they really should look at what they're doing, and maybe they just need to rearrange their funds. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. DR. DOYLE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Mr. Miller, do we have any -- MR. MILLER: Yes. Our next speaker is on Zoom. Kathy Raimondi, and she will be followed on Zoom by -- and I'm going to do my best here -- Vaibhav Lahiya. I'm sorry, sir, if I'm pronouncing that -- or, madam, I don't know. I'm sorry if I'm pronouncing that incorrectly. Kathy, you're being prompted to unmute yourself. I see you've done that. Ma'am, you have three minutes. MS. RAIMONDI: Okay. Thank you. As he said, I'm Kathy Raimondi. I live in Golden Gate Estates. September 7, 2023 Page 47 And I would like to comment on the budget regarding the funds for Big Corkscrew Island Regional Park. According to recent meetings, some commissioners mentioned cutting the already approved funds for two projects. One involved the future baseball fields. The other questioned the expense for chemicals to maintain the swimming pool. These two potential budget cuts went straight to my heart. These two amenities were in our community where we lived while raising our young family. There was a free Olympic-size community pool with two diving boards; a high dive, a low dive. The pool was one of the nicest things one could ever imagine having in the community. Our kids still have the fondest memory of that pool. Not following through with this pool here would be a very cruel thing, especially after Golden Gate Estates has waited so long for a park. We also had a park with numerous baseball fields. Our kids played there, and I was a coach for one of the teams. Several kids advanced to All Stars. This park meant so much to the kids and the adults. You could walk over and relax after a long day by watching various groups play ball. You've approved very large funds to support other Collier parks. For example, $6 million for a pickleball court for Pelican Bay district. That is a huge amount of money to give one district. And this gift will cost every taxpayer in Collier County in 2024, from which most won't benefit. I'd like to encourage all five commissioners to put an end to prioritizing annual budget funds, including grants, for the other four districts. Please give District 5 its fair share of the funds. Without doubt, it's nice to support Pelican Bay and provide funds for this pickleball project, and I personally think it's nice; however, it's not a need. It's a want. But District 5 needs so much, September 7, 2023 Page 48 and District 5 does not seem like it's regarded with the respect proportionately to the other districts. District 5 has practically nothing compared to other districts. If Collier allows homes to be built out here, then please do something for the people here so their lifestyle is more than just a home. Give the rural area equal funds or please stop giving permits to build homes, period, because there is nothing here for people when they get here. Treat Golden Gate Estates, or District 5, with equality. Please think about this question: Why do you allow any permits to build out here if there's nothing for the people in comparison to the districts that have so much. In summary, as a bare minimum, please reallocate your approved funds so District 5 retains long-awaited park baseball fields and aquatic swimming pools in the 2024 budget. Please do it for the children. Please give them good memories. And thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to speak. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Who's the District 5 commissioner? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Is that you or me? Kathy, this is Bill McDaniel. Is she still on the line? MR. MILLER: We can get her back permission to talk. Let me see if we can get her to unmute again. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I just wanted her -- make sure she's still on there. MR. MILLER: She can hear you, and she can talk about. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Hey, Kathy. How are you? MS. RAIMONDI: I'm here, Bill. I'm fine. How are you? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Good, good, good. I wanted to ask our County Manager -- because you made a statement at the beginning having a discussion about cutting funds for September 7, 2023 Page 49 our Big Corkscrew Regional Park, and I think that adjustment's been made, and I wanted to correct the -- correct the record, if I can. MS. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. The discussions about Big Corkscrew Island Regional Park was simply looking at how we are going to move forward in Phase 2 and looking at the programmed amenities and timing. There are amenities that are definitely moving forward now in Phase 2, that's the loop road and some of those things, and then there are things that require additional consideration on their placement, such as the baseball or other fields. There's been no cuts to that program. In fact, we're working very diligent to bring that aquatics facility into service, and there's -- we've built it. So there's not going to be a cutting of chemicals or shutting of the pool. It would be -- it would be illogical and irresponsible of us to put that kind of money into a park only to close it or not to maintain it. That's not on the Board here. The second thing is, the pickleball $6 million is actually coming from Pelican Bay. That's not county dollars. It's not coming from the taxpayers of Collier County at large. That is contained within Pelican Bay. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And, Kathy, I don't want to take a bunch of time today, but maybe off-line we can get together and have a discussion just to give you the back story as to what our County Manager was just talking about with the Phase 2 portion. And the original proposed ball fields were over there, and what I've deemed as -- or dubbed Big Jim's Bass Lake, and there was a proposition of backfilling that pond, and there is another alternative to accomplish the expansion of Phase 2 and construct the ball fields and keep that lake all in one place. But that's -- it's not something that we're going to necessarily discuss tonight. I know there's been quite a bit of communication on the interweb with people making accusations and things that just September 7, 2023 Page 50 factually aren't founded. So maybe reach out, send me a note; let's get together and talk. But I just wanted to share with you some of the -- some of the truths as to what's, in fact, transpiring. MS. RAIMONDI: Bill, can I make -- could I -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. Go ahead, ma'am. MS. RAIMONDI: Can I make a -- thank you, Bill. I had accepted your invitation for a discussion, and I know what you're talking about, some things going on that are kind of disturbing in the district. But one of the things I wanted to just say really quick -- because I know you're all busy -- is I did listen to some of the meetings, and some of the people came before your board, and they would ask for you to -- for example, there was one person that asked your board to renew a $100,000 grant. And one of you gentlemen asked a very good question: Do you need that money? And they actually said, very honesty, no, they didn't need it, but you've given it to them before, so they would be able to appreciate having it again. And this is just a small example, because -- I think you might have mentioned one of the projects, the baseball or the pool will come to 60,000 and the other one will be about 80,000. So if people don't need the money, we really need it in the Golden Gate Estates. We have nothing. We have roads, and then everybody's complaining about that and stuff. So, really, I want to say thank you, everybody, for what you do. I really appreciate -- Mr. LoCastro, I really like the way you run the meetings. You're so respectful, and you give credit to people who can get up there and speak, not passionately and angry. And so I just love your demeanor and how you're handling the meetings, and everybody else. So thank you for hearing me, and please look after District 5 a little bit better, because we don't feel like we're getting the fair share. September 7, 2023 Page 51 Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am. I appreciate those comments. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chair, your final registered speaker tonight is on Zoom, and, again, my apologies, Vaibhav Lahiya. You're being prompted to unmute yourself. If you'll do so at this time. I see you're unmuted. Could you please begin by pronouncing your name correctly for the record. MR. LAHIYA: Sure. I think you were close. It's Vaibhav Lahiya. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Very good. MR. MILLER: Sir, you have three minutes. Please begin. MR. LAHIYA: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. I have a property in Naples, Naples Park area. It's in North Naples. And I joined this public comment on the budget hearing last year as well and as a new property owner at the time had done a good amount of research and tried to make a number of points on this public hearing. Unfortunately, it tends to be a one-sided conversation where I have to make my comments in the three minutes, and then thereafter any further comments that get made by the Board I have no opportunity to refute. So I'm going to make it easier for all of us this year, and I'm going to give you some numbers. For folks on the board as well as anyone listening to this -- I can't see the room, so I don't know who else is sitting in there. And, by the way, it shocks me that there are not more people that are coming in and providing their public commentary in such hearings. But I'll tell you this: Last year my taxes went up from 5,400 to 6,700. That was a 23 percent increase in my property taxes in one year. Some of that is driven by increase in property value. No structural improvements. If my property value's increasing, so is September 7, 2023 Page 52 others. At the end of the day, there's additional dollars being raised through taxes. One would say any increase in property value is essentially the increase in taxes. I don't know how that all translates. I can't imagine my property values increasing; others is not. Now, knowing that there has been an increase just in market value of property in that neighborhood, in that area and, you know, it's all going to sort of level out in the next coming years, I fully expected that the assessment value of my property will yet again increase this year. What continues to shock me is that we still have increased taxes not just driven by increasing the value of the property, but also because there are additional proposed budget increases. So this year it's going from the 23 percent increase last year that brought my taxes to 6,700, to 9,900 under the proposed budget. That's a 46 percent increase in taxes. I ask you: When does it end? As somebody who's employed, working for an employer, not somebody who owns a business, I can tell you that if my expenses increase, I don't just walk up to my employer and ask them to increase my salary. So I'm not seeing a dime of revenue increase for myself, yet whether it's services that I'm availing to or taxes that I'm paying, they keep going up and up and up. The second column in the proposed, you know, tax assessments, essentially, you know, talks about an increase free 67- to 89-, which, you know, potentially is driven by increase in the assessed values of the properties, which is what it is. But to then say let's also increase the proposed budget over and above that, going up to 9,900, another thousand-dollar increase, I just don't understand. So, anyway, those were my comments. I think those are solid numbers. Everyone listening to this, including the Board, I urge you to reconsider this. This is just insane. September 7, 2023 Page 53 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you. This is a question for staff, because I don't understand how a tax bill could go from 6,700 to 9,900 this year. I'm looking at -- again, just looking at the countywide tax increases, that if we -- if we kept the millage rate the same, and if you have a one-million-dollar taxable value in Collier County, your taxes would go up $384 if you're non-homesteaded. If you're homesteaded, your taxes would go up $106. So how does someone go from -- I assume it's a residence. Maybe it's not -- maybe it's not homesteaded. MR. JOHNSON: And I can attempt to answer that question. In that situation, it would either have to be a change in ownership where you are reset to market rate or -- what we've been seeing in a couple instances this year is folks that have been on the non-homestead and they actually go homestead, which then resets their value to market rate as well. So last year we had an average of 40 percent increases in taxable value. This year it's 20. If you were to all of a sudden go to market, you could have a substantial increase in your overall taxable value. So it would depend on the status of the property owner and when they purchased it. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: And I'm not questioning the speaker in terms of the numbers, but -- so there are scenarios where a homeowner, whether homesteaded or not, could experience an increase of taxes from 6,700 to 9,800? Now, I'm assuming that must include schools and everything, but, that -- MR. JOHNSON: Correct. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: But I'm not sure -- MR. JOHNSON: In the event of a change in ownership. So -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, he seemed to be talking about how he owned this piece of property, and it went up a September 7, 2023 Page 54 certain amount last year, and it went up a certain amount this year. So the assumption I made was that he owned this piece of property. Now, he didn't say whether it was a business property or a residence. But assuming it was some kind of a residential property where there was no change in ownership, are these numbers even possible? MR. JOHNSON: And the change in ownership would affect year two of owning the home. So if you purchase a home that was homesteaded or a non-homestead, it would -- it would be under the old -- the old rate, and then once it resets at the -- on January 1st for this year, it would go to market value. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Right. Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I was just going to say, I get this question a lot from citizens who send me a really angry email saying, oh, my God, my taxes have exploded, and 100 percent of the time -- because I usually reach out to Mr. Finn, and then he points me in your direction or both -- 100 percent of the time when the answer comes back to me, it's one of those half a dozen scenarios. So the citizen makes it sound like, you know, look what you-all have done to me taxwise. And I think to myself, I don't remember voting on anything that quadrupled your taxes, and then 100 percent of the time when you guys dig into that exact property, the scenario is always they went from non-homesteaded to homesteaded but then it changed the -- it was all of the scenarios you just described 100 percent of the time. MR. JOHNSON: Yep. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I mean, I just -- because I also tell the citizen, I don't know how it could go that high, just like Commissioner Saunders said, but I will find out. I want to educate myself on your particular property. One hundred percent of the time it's always some sort of change like that or a significant property value increase. September 7, 2023 Page 55 So it's like, you know, hey, it's stinks that your taxes have gone up, but, congratulations, your property doubled or whatever the cost was. But I've researched these a lot, and you-all have given me very quick answers that have come back, and then when I tell that to the citizen, they kind of already new that answer, I think. You know, they just wanted to vent a little bit. MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. We get a lot of calls on that as well, and those are the typical reasons. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Any more public speakers? MR. MILLER: No. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So this is a good time for a break. Let's see. What do you-all need? Do you want to come back at -- I mean, if I said 7:00, was that too much, 15, 16 minutes? (No response.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. We'll come back here at 7:00 p.m. (A brief recess was had from 6:44 p.m. to 7:00 p.m.) MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Thank you. So we're done with public comments, correct? MR. MILLER: Yes. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Did we didn't miss anybody? (No response.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. All right. County Manager, what's our next -- I mean, I can see what's next. Let's move on to talk about the millage rates. MR. FINN: Yes. If there's no change in the millage rates, our next task is to essentially read those millage rates for the Board. So if we're going to move in that direction, that's fine. If there is some desire to adjust millage rates, staff would like to have that dialogue September 7, 2023 Page 56 this evening so that at the second public hearing we will have double-checked and triple-checked our numbers and made sure we're correct. We also need some time to run the calculations this evening if we move in that direction; another brief break in order to calculate those things. So that being said, if there is some discussion -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I have a question, and then Commissioner McDaniel, he just lit up as well. And I meant to ask this when you and I met yesterday. When I'm looking at the slide on the millage rates, there's -- you know, you look at prior year millage rates, there's -- you know, you look at prior year millage rate, 4.4396, and then, you know, proposed millage rate, 4.4397. The three areas where it changes is Bayshore Avalon Beautification, Rock Road, and Collier County Lighting. Why do those three change again and -- where all the other ones are static? What's the difference? MR. FINN: Let me just eyeball this real quick. Chris, if you can jump in, that's fine, too. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Because if you remember, when we were in my office, I was like, why does it go from 96 to 97, and then we sort of got off track. And then I made some notes last night where I was just sort of going down the different dependent districts. MR. FINN: So there was Palm River sidewalk MSTU, the second one from the bottom, is a straight add of .5 mills. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: No, no. Oh, okay, yeah. And that was the other one, yeah; I'm sorry. Yeah, so there were four. So that one's because of what reason? It goes from 0 to .5 for what reason? MR. FINN: The Board policy was to create an MSTU to do some sidewalk work in the Palm River area, and so this is the first year that we're implementing that. The actions were taken by the Board and adopted by the Board, so this is the implementation of September 7, 2023 Page 57 Board policy. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So continuing from the bottom, the next one where there's a change is Collier County Lighting. It goes from .1154 to .1025, so it actually goes down. Why is that? MR. JOHNSON: You want me to answer that question, then? MR. FINN: Yes. Please, Chris. MR. JOHNSON: Commissioner, that was -- that's the rolled-back rate for that district. After going through the budget, staff had put together a budget around the rolled-back rate. I don't know if you were here or not, but we -- I think prior to you, we did a large upgrade with LED lighting which has been saving us funding in that fund. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. How about Rock Road? So working your way from the bottom, it goes from 1.34 to -- you know, it goes back to the rolled-back rate as well. Why was that? MR. JOHNSON: And Rock Road was due to a very large taxable value increase. They're building subdivisions over there that are currently included within the MSTU. I believe the Board -- the Board will see items moving forward to adjust those boundaries. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: We're going to adjust it right now as soon as he calls on me. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And then Bayshore Avalon Beautification, that one went from 2.3 to 2.1. What was the difference there? MR. JOHNSON: And that was based on the advisory board's recommendation. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Okay. Commissioner McDaniel, sir. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah. Well -- and you grabbed on the Rock Road. There was -- there was a time when September 7, 2023 Page 58 Rock Road was zero. MR. JOHNSON: Correct. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And then -- and I was told because -- because it was an inordinate amount of money, the people in the Rock Road area created their MSTU, were taxed to -- and brought up -- taxed themselves, brought up Rock Road to a standard, turned it over to the County, and there was no need for that. But because of the area and the subdivisions that then transpired, the dollars went off the chart. And I was told by previous administrations that that extra money that year -- because I was chirping about it -- that extra money that year was going to go to satisfy the existing debt and they'd move the rate to zero, and then all of a sudden it came back to this rate here. And I'd like to see it go back to zero. There's no -- as a matter of -- at one time there was a discussion about sunsetting that MSTU because Rock Road is completed. MR. JOHNSON: And, currently, the fund -- the Rock Road fund -- the funds are -- they're utilizing those funds to continually re -- put the lime rock on the road, and do -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It's paved. MR. JOHNSON: -- patch repairs. All the way down to the back? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Pretty sure. MR. FINN: No, sir. There's a portion of that that is not -- that is not paved. They did pave a portion of it. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well, there was a time that we moved that rate to zero, and then there was discussion about extinguishing that MSTU at all, so -- and I have a question for staff. This is my second question to that. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: You reading these rates September 7, 2023 Page 59 Ed -- Ed? MR. FINN: Yes. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Ed Finn, you reading these rates into the record doesn't codify them. If this board -- if we make -- I mean, it's a function that has to happen tonight, if I'm not mistaken. It's part of what we're here to do. But if we make a decision to move a rate from one way to another, it doesn't stop us -- stop you from reading these rates, because we don't adopt these rates until the last budget hearing in September. MR. FINN: You're correct, sir. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. MR. FINN: We, ultimately, can adjust the rates then. My sense of it is, if the Board has the interest in doing so, we, perhaps, could have that discussion before we do these rates and be able to close out that piece of business. But, alternatively, we can -- we can proceed with the agenda, get through this, and deal with it all at the second public hearing. There's always risk in being hectic, but if we're prepared for an adjustment, we certainly can accommodate that at the second public hearing as well. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well -- and I'm off my Rock Road kick for now. MR. FINN: Okay. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'll light up again if you want to -- Commissioner Saunders is ahead of me. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal's actually next. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you, Chair. Yeah, that was kind of my question was that, you know, reading September 7, 2023 Page 60 these now versus -- because there are some here -- items that I'd like to visit and look at the rollback, and I think it would behoove us to -- if we're going to do that, do it tonight so when we have the numbers to go to the 21st meeting, we're not doing it then. I don't know if that makes sense or if that's the efficient way to do it, and that way we're not delaying, and we're playing catch-up on the 21st. MR. FINN: Well, sir, we're certainly here tonight to take care of this business, and if there's business to be done, we'd certainly like to get as much of it as possible out of the way tonight. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders, you're next. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: This may sound like kind of a strange procedure, but I'm just throwing this out as a thought that just popped into my head. If we wait until the second hearing to make a final budget decision which results in a significant reduction in the millage rate, then staff is going to be in a really hard position to let us know what the impact of that is quickly. So what I would suggest is let's have the discussion on what millage rate we desire as of tonight, not set that in stone, and let staff come back and tell us what the impacts of that would be so that at our second meeting we can re-think that if we want to. So kind of have it both ways where we tell staff, here's the millage rate we think we want to go to, but we're not going to vote on that millage rate and set it in stone. We're not going to lower it tonight. We're going to wait until the second budget hearing where we can ultimately make that decision, after we hear from our constituents, because then there will be some publicity as to what that really means. Again, just a thought. MR. JOHNSON: And that would allow us to prepare for that final hearing, basically preparing two different versions of what we September 7, 2023 Page 61 need to prepare. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'm still lit up, by the way. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: No, I know. I shut you off by mistake. Go ahead, sir. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And on that note, one of my suggestions -- I made it to -- I think I made it to Ed earlier today, was after we have these discussions about the different millage rates, we could have an agenda -- we could talk about it tonight without you scurrying around trying to figure out what those impacts are on the cuff and then bring it back, even if it's a walk-on item on Tuesday -- we have another public meeting on Tuesday -- and talk about the impacts, as Commissioner Saunders talked about, of those adjustments and then be mentally prepared to go forward with a final setting of the budget in our last budget hearing the week after that, the week after next. So that would be, in my eye, a good way to go. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I love everything that I heard. I would just say, I think, let's try to cuss and discuss, as I say a lot of times, as much as we can tonight. We are -- this is a little bit of a ticking time bomb. We are up against a time-sensitive issue, but it's less time sensitive at this meeting than it's going to be at the next meeting. So I love what Commissioner Saunders said, which is, hey, let's talk -- and maybe not in a finality vote, but let's talk in terms of we're getting down to some real specificity tonight, and then we just have maybe a little bit left and a little bit of wiggle room. It doesn't mean we can't do a complete 180 but, boy, I sure hope that we don't, because then we're putting the staff in a really tight spot, and then we're just going back to square zero. So, I mean, I'm not staring at the clock tonight. I mean, if we've got to order a bunch of pizzas and roll our sleeves up, then that's what September 7, 2023 Page 62 we do, but we really need to leave this meeting with as much stuff done as possible. I think everybody in here agrees with that, or else we're really going to put ourself into a tight -- a tight spot. But, like Commissioner Saunders said, it doesn't mean we have to have a final vote. I like the idea of chewing on it for a bit, hearing from our constituents. But, you know, let's light up as much as possible here tonight and really talk about what you're concerned about or what answers you need from the staff, because this is -- to me, this is really the meeting where -- you know, where the meat's really on the bone. The vote at the end is -- you know, yeah, that can happen on the 21st, but, you know, tonight's meeting, you know, should be the rolling up of the sleeves, asking as many questions as you need to ask so that when we leave here the staff has a lot of homework assignments, or they don't. And we're doing that now. So let's, I think -- you know, let's keep that -- let's keep that going. Commissioner Hall. COMMISSIONER HALL: Thank you, Chair. A couple of things. I promised not to raise taxes, and I'm going to stick to it no matter what I got to do. I may be the only one ever, but I'm going to stick to my word. And when I look at millage rates versus valuations, if my bill is higher and my valuation is the same, that's a tax increase to me. I'm looking at dollars to the public. Not percentages, not valuations, not this, and not that. I'm looking at actual dollars that the public pays for us to run our county. Now, I do think that with a rolled-back rate there are ways that we can go back and adjust and find some -- and find, what is it, 60 million bucks. Is that the figure? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Close. COMMISSIONER HALL: In seven or eight months of doing this job I've seen where we can probably renegotiate some things or September 7, 2023 Page 63 not negotiate at all and not hire some thing -- and not do some things to find 60 million bucks. I think we're going to talk about a lot of this on October the 2nd, so that's coming up. I have a question, and this is just a hypothetical thing, because I don't know of other taxing, you know -- so I'm just going to say it. I'll be in the newspaper. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Again. COMMISSIONER HALL: Conservation Collier, we have up -- we are allowed to charge up to .25 millage for that; is that correct? MR. FINN: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER HALL: Do we have to collect that millage rate in one year? So can we decide not to collect for Conservation Collier in this coming fiscal year and then go back to doing our regular Conservation Collier next year? MR. KLATZKOW: Yes. COMMISSIONER HALL: Okay. So I think there's money in that coffer that they -- we're not able to spend that much money. So it's not like we're robbing them of the opportunity to -- you know, for us to purchase conservation property, but we're just postponing collecting the tax on that so we could roll the rate back and maybe add the Conservation Collier millage to that rate to lessen that -- because you said it was going to be, what, 30 million bucks, $35 million? MR. JOHNSON: It's 50 -- are you talking about Conservation Collier or the rollback? COMMISSIONER HALL: Yes, Conservation Collier. MR. JOHNSON: Thirty-four million. COMMISSIONER HALL: Huh? MR. JOHNSON: Thirty-four million. COMMISSIONER HALL: So there's half of that 60 million September 7, 2023 Page 64 right there just -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Are you talking about going -- sorry. I didn't mean to jump. Forgive me. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: You're next anyway. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Are you talking about going to zero on Conservation Collier? COMMISSIONER HALL: Yes, just for the year, because they've got a surplus of money. I mean, if it was -- if they were needing money to purchase properties, I'd never even think about that, but -- just an idea. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah. Let me explore that a little bit with you, Commissioner Hall, because I understand the tax pledge and not raising taxes. And there's no question that an increase in the millage rate is a tax increase. There's -- COMMISSIONER HALL: No question about that. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: No one can debate that. And if you roll the millage rate back and cut everything out of Conservation Collier -- and this is just a question for you -- and we do that for one year in order to refund Conservation Collier, you need to -- have to find another $30 million somewhere in the existing budget, or you'd have to raise the millage rate again. COMMISSIONER HALL: No, I'm all with you. What I'm thinking about -- and I didn't say it -- was doing something right now and then entertaining this -- I love this zero-based budget idea, reengineering processes, looking at where we can do things maybe differently. Other than that, we're going to be at a $3.2 billion budget, a 3.6 -- I mean, where is the end? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: There is no end. COMMISSIONER HALL: There is no end. So that's why I'm saying, that would give us time. That would give something in the September 7, 2023 Page 65 interim to lessen the burden on the taxpayers and then give us time to do the hard things and to be -- and to do the -- make the hard leadership things. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: What's 25 percent of $60 million? COMMISSIONER HALL: Fifteen million. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Fifteen million? MR. JOHNSON: Fifteen million. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I think that's what we gave Great Wolf Lodge, right? Yeah. Okay. MR. JOHNSON: Correct. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel. I had to throw that in there. I know. I know. Go ahead. Let me hear it. You're next. It's real money. We're sitting here -- we're sitting here arguing over 60 million, but we -- you know, we've thrown out -- like, I agree with Commissioner Hall, we've thrown out numbers for other things and thought -- didn't think as long and hard of it as we're sitting here right now trying to sharpen our pencils. But having said that, sir, go ahead. Commissioner McDaniel. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I forgot what I was going to say. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Do you want me to go to Commissioner Kowal? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Commissioner Kowal. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Cut it out. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you, Chairman. I was thinking along the same lines as Commissioner Hall, but I wasn't talking about a total zero rollback but finding a number that will work because, you know, I've studied the program itself, I looked at it, and in the design of the program itself, it was only September 7, 2023 Page 66 supposed to operate at 20 to 25 -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Just Conservation Collier? COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Conservation Collier, at 20 to $25 million a year. And even if you go with the rolled-back rate compared to what it was last year, they collected 30 million, 537-and-some dollars. Even if we went to rollback, they're still going to make almost a million dollars more in cutting it from the .25 back to what -- the projected rollback is .22. But I think we could probably even go back a little further. Maybe not to zero. But like we said, we're slowly working our way to where we're getting closer to, you know, actually finding ways to start cutting this. And then when we do come to a final number, we are putting out a number that's lower than what we've operated pretty much at the last 14 years. I think it's been pretty steady. And we could see that -- you know, they're in -- right now I think in their maintenance budget they're projected to have an additional $51 million sitting there, which, even if we stopped putting money in their maintenance budget, which is only 25 percent of the money they collect over the 10 years that it's been in -- or now I think 12 years, they could last almost 20 years on that just for the amount of maintenance money they use as of right now without collecting another dime and putting it into the maintenance. It just jumps out to me. Conservation Collier, when you look down this column, they have two of the biggest numbers in surplus. I mean, it's just amazing. And this is a program that's not -- it's a wish. It's a wish. It's a wish that somebody has a piece of property willing to put into the program, and then we're willing to buy it. This is not something that is a required operation to operate the county. And we're not walking away from the program even if we September 7, 2023 Page 67 reduce it. It's still going to function probably where it's supposed to function at but, at the same time, these are not requirements, you know, for the County to run in operational budgetary parameters with what we have. We can't predict who's going to donate or bring a piece of property up to Conservation Collier. I can't predict that. I don't know who next year's going to come and say, I have a piece of property I think will work in the program. Look at it, you know. But we just keep collecting money over the -- and it keeps growing and growing the amount of money we collect for this program. And, you know, this is money that's real money, you know, that should be used for other areas. You know, like we -- we were faced with the underfunded items on that list just a few weeks ago. You know, these things just -- to me, it just makes a little bit of sense to start picking at these tonight, get some ideas where we can try to agree on this and do cut back and maybe see what the impact is and then move forward in the next meeting. But I don't know about 100 percent, but I think we could probably take a chunk of this, and it would still operate the same as they're operating now, and it won't really affect it much. And -- you know, then that will force us to look at these properties in a different way, too, the importance of them -- the value that we're actually getting on return on our investment. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let me ask the County Attorney, because, I mean, that Conservation Collier is something that, obviously, the citizens voted on, but if I -- if I'm summarizing correctly what you said, I think back to one of the other commissioners, our charter is that it's -- that we can spend .25 or we could go less. We can't go above it, right -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Up to. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- without -- up to .25. But September 7, 2023 Page 68 considering what Commissioner Kowal just said, County Attorney, do you have a comment -- the way -- you know, since -- with your understanding of Conservation Collier and where our wiggle room could be? And this is just hypothetical. This is what this meeting's supposed to be, us brainstorming possibilities. But since that was voted on by the public, I just -- I know that we have to stay in a very specific lane. Would we be able to make those kind of adjustments like what Commissioner Kowal just said and still be within the parameters of what citizens voted on? MR. KLATZKOW: Yes, because there was always that flexibility built in that. It's up to a quarter mill. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So, I mean, some of the Conservation Collier -- MR. KLATZKOW: Everyone should have -- the .25 may have become an expectation by people -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Right, yeah. MR. KLATZKOW: -- but it's not required. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, okay. Commissioner McDaniel, sir. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yes. And I just finally got to the Rock Road budget. I was going through it. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Time for a break. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well, I mean, these things are all -- they're just in here, but -- and I -- I think we have to look -- I would prefer that we start looking past just this year over last. This circumstance -- Commissioner Hall, you brought up a point earlier about where does it end? Well, it doesn't end. It never ends. Commissioner Kowal, you brought up a very valid point of expectations of growth and expenses associated with that. Who would have thought that we would experience the enormous amount of growth that we have in the recent past, let alone what might September 7, 2023 Page 69 happen next year? But there has been a dire need for our county to shift its ways in how it's been doing its business. From a -- and now we're 2-plus billion -- 2.4 billion, I think, all-in budget, if I'm not mistaken. Historically, there was -- when you move back into -- clear back into 2007, that's when the Great Recession transpired and assessed valuations were decreasing, and those boards actually lowered the rates to help offset and compensate. And the county's revenue went like this (indicating) from '07 clear down to '12. And then, starting in '12, that's when it kind of sort of leveled off, and we went back up over to in excess of a billion dollars total collected in our total budget. But the management of the funds, as the money started going back up, didn't go back in to fill the offsets in deferred maintenance, capital projects. When Commissioner Saunders and I came into office in 2016, there was a billion -- minimum of a billion dollars of deferred capital and maintenance that were sitting on our shelves. I think, Amy, you and I talked. There was well over 200 million alone just in stormwater, 150 million in capital, and in excess of 50- in maintenance. And so when you -- when we're talking, when we're going forward, I would really like for us to develop a plan to have honest-to-goodness real live looks. Commissioner Saunders brought up a really important point when he was talking with Keith. We really only have discussion or -- can decide over plus or minus 630, 615 million I think is what's estimated in this particular budget between the ad valorem. The rest of it's our taxes that -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Minus the Sheriff's 250. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well, yeah, but I haven't got there yet, so -- and that's -- so when we're -- when we're -- when September 7, 2023 Page 70 we're talking about these rolled-back rates, I think -- I think consideration needs to be given to look in that -- looking at our history and implementing processes so that we stop this forever going-on thing and better manage our expenses, because, you know, it's been brought up several times, I mean. I own my own company, and I can see waste and fluff in my own company let alone what exponentially could be fluff in our government systems. The suggestion that I would like to -- that I would like to make is that we give direction to staff to move some of these rates back to the rolled-back rate and then give us information as to what those, in fact, impacts are. I think, Commissioner Hall, you brought up a point. I mean, there's -- Conservation Collier is an important component of our community. There are -- there are things that potentially could be done with those monies that are going to be an aggregate benefit to our community in a lot of different ways, not just in the environmental prospects of the acquisition of a particular piece of property. But in the big picture, these are very, very difficult decisions that have to be made when our sheriff, who is our number-one job to keep our families and neighborhoods safe, when our sheriff consumes nyon 40 percent of the dollars that we have really any discretion over from an ad valorem standpoint. There's other dollars. I mean, you don't get to 2 billion-plus without having other income. The other side of that equation -- and I've brought it up several times, brought it up last year, brought it up the year before, our board puts out budget policy, budget initiatives in the spring. And this year we recommended 4 and a half percent year-over-year increase. Look at the -- look at the percentage increases that are over here. I mean, I don't need to point them out individually, but I really would like to see better adherence to the guidance that comes from September 7, 2023 Page 71 this board with regard to -- I mean, because you folks are making those recommendations to us. We didn't just dream up that a 4 and a half percent year-over-year increase was okay. You were the ones that necessarily assisted us in making -- making those -- I'm looking at Amy right now. You are the ones that made those recommendations to us. I would like for, going forward, we spend more time with those recommendations on those individual budgets to maybe reign back some of what is perceived as extraordinary. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I mean, Ms. Patterson, I don't -- I know I don't need to, you know, speak on your behalf, but we've had these, you know, conversations before. I fully appreciate what Commissioner McDaniel's saying, 100 percent accurate. But some of the things that really have been an eyeopener to me -- and, I mean, you know, I haven't been a county commissioner here for 24 years or anything, but it's been an eyeopener some of the stuff that, as a new County Manager -- and you're not new anymore -- but the things that you've discovered that maybe were underfunded, some things that maybe are significantly in need of replacement, not repair, the way maybe had been talked about for years. Oh, this is -- this -- you know, this chiller's fine, and, you know, I can go through HVAC and all the things with our sewer and water system. So there's quite a bit that, with you and your new team -- we have a lot of new staff here. I mean -- and I was -- in my notes here, although there's quite a few that didn't stick to the 4 percent, there's also quite a few that, in some conversations I had with the staff -- and we all did -- who really did sharpen their pencils to take a look at some things. But correct me if I'm wrong, some of what might look like inflation was because of very specific things that they discovered that September 7, 2023 Page 72 are going to come back and bite us if we don't catch up to some areas. So, I mean, I'll turn over the microphone, you know, to you. I mean, this is what we're here to peel back. I mean, you know, if somebody artificially inflated their budget, one of the departments or any of the things listed on here, then I would expect you would have caught that, some of the numbers on here that are kind of mesmerizing as far as the increase. I know we talked about some of them, but, you know, let me -- you know, for the record, why don't you comment on some of the -- of the comments we're making. MS. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. So one of the things that the -- well, first, let me step back to Commissioner McDaniel's comments about budgeting to the percentage and how that -- that's kind of the way that it's been done over the years, conservative approach only to be often pleasantly surprised by the increase in valuation. And we've had a lot of conversations at our level that maybe we need to adjust that a little bit, coming to you earlier than February or March and then talking about your priorities and then trying to look at the cost of some of those things as well as still trying to capture the true cost of what it does -- what it costs to do our business. So some of the surprises this year, for us, were, obviously, the electric and commodities. It's -- if you own a home, if you live here, if you live anywhere, you know that electric has gone up as well as lots of other goods and services. So everything costs more. We can't very well come to you and say, well, you need to give us more money to keep the lights on, but we've filled our budget with these other things. That's the evolution of the UFR. Another big expense, property insurance. Not a surprise to anybody. We hear conversations about our own homes and insurance, so that's a big number in these budgets. And then as touched upon even about Pelican Bay is the cost of September 7, 2023 Page 73 employment. We found ourselves in a position where our pay plan was aged, very aged. We were losing people. Not only beginning in the pandemic, but just as things were getting better, people were being aggressively recruited away, and we were not competitive. And we will never be the private sector, but we weren't even competitive with our own government peer group, so we had to take steps to adjust our pay plan and say that we're not going to fall behind like that again. Again, we're not attempting to be competitive with the private sector. The rise and fall of the private sector is a different thing, and we deal with, you know, in the government how that affects our employment. But we can't have, you know, a decade-old pay plan and expect that people are going to stay here. So those are things that people had to think about as they developed these budgets. To your point, we're faced with backlog maintenance, years and years and years of maintenance issues, stormwater, aquatics facilities and those things. They're big capital projects. We have an aging infrastructure in the ground. And it's the things that you don't drive around and see. It's -- one of the favorite things I say is, we drive around and we see beautiful landscaping. It's right there, and you can look at it. You don't drive around and say, look at the beautiful stormwater. It's mostly underground, and unless you're flooding, it's not something that you think about every day. But when you have 40- or 50- or 60-year-old infrastructure in the ground, that's something that has to be addressed because it also compromises the rest of your infrastructure. It starts to affect your roads, water and sewer, and they're all cobbled together. So those are all things that we're struggling with on how to prioritize and also how we articulate that to you in a way that is measured and meaningful. For us to come in and say give us September 7, 2023 Page 74 $100 million here or $50 million there with no ability to execute which, again, ties back to the commodities, it ties back to employment, if we can't execute the projects, there is no sense in us asking you for the money. We need to make you aware of what we're facing, but we can't very well stack a whole bunch of projects that we're not going to be able to -- we're not going to be able to perform on. So it's a real balancing act. I have to say that the staff was very thoughtful in their review. We had a lot of really good conversations about trying to start to articulate the need so that you-all will be able to make informed decisions. But in the end that's what we owe to you is to tell you what our professional opinion is, and if you tell us you want to try to hire a consultant and try to look at a zero-based budget, we're going to execute your decisions. You are the policy-makers and whatever that is, we will -- we will take that guidance, and we will march out with it. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel's next. I was just going to say, something that's sort of lost in this meeting is all the -- all the documents that are in front of us just weren't photocopied from last year and put in a binder. So you have driven a lot of meetings with the staff and tightened belts. And we could have -- we could be seeing very different numbers right now if all those steps would have been skipped. These numbers would be all probably significantly inflated. So, I mean, I commend the staff for what -- how they were able to -- you know, we're at Step 5 right now, and Step 1 through 4 was sort of invisible to us, but it wasn't to you. And, I mean, there's definitely a lot of work that has been done. But now, you know, like Mr. Flaugh said, it's like this is the hard part, you know. Now this is -- you know, this is the tough part, and we know that. Commissioner McDaniel, sir, you're next. September 7, 2023 Page 75 COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah. I'm going to jump back over to Rock Road and just use it as an example. I mean, I -- literally, I -- we spent $21,000 in operating expenses in '22, estimated it to be 63,000. We spent 21,900, 22,000 in '23, and now we're estimating it, again, to be 70,000, and we're sitting with 90 million in reserves or, excuse me, 90,000 in reserves. I misspoke. There's a 9 percent -- 9.9 percent increase in taxation there because of the increase in taxable value because of the subdivisions that are there. And this is peanut money, but I -- I'm sorry? COMMISSIONER HALL: It's compounded. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Forty thousand here, 40,000 there. Pretty soon you have a pile. And so -- and I look -- I'm looking through other budgets that are in here now with the '22 actual expenditure, the estimated -- you call it forecasting because we're only a month away from the end of '23, and there are significant increases budgetarily just simply -- that are coming in, I believe, just simply because the rate has stayed the same and the valuation of the properties. I saw it in -- I see it down in Bayshore as well. So, first of all, you know, I've got a -- I've got a -- I've got a spur up under me with regard to Rock Road because of the increase in the area and the subdivisions that were there. I would like an adjustment to be effectuated in Rock Road back to the forecasted actual revenues that they spent in '22, which is very close to what they spent in '23. There's an ongoing process there, and utilize -- and I assume we can utilize the reserves to pick up an unknown, unexpected expense that can happen so that we aren't shorting the MSTU? MR. FINN: And if I may, sir, taking a quick look at the budget, you're not wrong. Budgets typically tend to be conservative and try to stay on the side of making sure we have money so we can respond to emergencies. September 7, 2023 Page 76 COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. MR. FINN: In this particular case, if it is the Board's desire to run that a lot closer to the wire and project -- burn down a little bit of the reserves that are there for emergency fund operations and reduce that millage a little bit, I think that probably could be achieved. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And/or a discussion with regard -- because I think -- I don't know if the MSTU's going to stay in place or not. But, you know, the ongoing maintenance, repaving of the road, those are all things that can -- should be budgeted for. Those are the capital asset replacement and maintenance funding that you and I've gone round and roundabout, so... MR. FINN: And if it pleases the Board, that may well be one that we take a look at over the next couple of days and bring a recommendation back to you. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: That would be fine with me. I'd make that recommendation. If you want it in a motion, I'll make that recommendation. MR. FINN: Okay. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When Commissioner McDaniel and I got on the Board in 2016 -- and Commissioner McDaniel has pointed this out -- the County was really in a deep hole in terms of infrastructure in terms of deferred maintenance. And we took a lot of steps to start filling that hole. And I admit that we did a little bit of digging ourselves. But we were still making a strong effort to get the County back on a strong financial footing. Part of that was maintaining the current -- then current millage rate, and the millage rate that's in effect today and not doing these rolled-back millage rates because we knew that we had to have flexibility, and we knew we were trying to get out of this big hole. September 7, 2023 Page 77 Part of filling that hole up was the one-cent sales tax that, quite frankly, we will have raised for our -- for the County's expenditures, over, I think, close to $470 million and another 50 or 60 million is going to the City. So that has really put us in a strong position to get ahead of some of these problems in terms of transportation in terms of deferred maintenance. Now, we're -- and we also recognized as we were doing this that we needed some flexibility. So we had Hurricane Irma, and we responded really to that. Now, we had all kinds of problems, but we responded, I think, as best as could be expected of any government where 100 percent of the power in the whole county was gone for a couple of weeks. And then last year, we had Hurricane Ian, and, of course, we really responded extremely well to that and got everything cleaned up and helped the City of Naples and our other municipalities in getting back up to speed. And I kept making the argument, let's don't go to the rolled-back millage rate because we don't know what's going to happen down the road. So now we roll the clock forward. We're in a much better position, but we're always going to be -- as it's been pointed out, we're always going to be growing, and our needs are going to continue to grow. And now we have a tax pledge, and I want to talk a little bit about that, because four commissioners have signed a tax pledge. Now, I was presented with these tax pledges almost every year when I was in the legislature, and I didn't sign them, and I haven't signed one now, and I didn't because I felt that you just don't know what's going to happen. You don't know if you're going to have to raise some fees. You don't know if there's going to be a hurricane and you're going to have to have more reserves. You just don't know what's going to happen. And so -- but I respect everyone signing September 7, 2023 Page 78 that. I understand that a pledge is a pledge. But this is kind of directed to Commissioner Hall, because I think it's important that we kind of understand what it means if you have a pledge and you're not going to raise revenues one year above what they were the year before, that -- which is what we're talking about this year. So let's say we go to the rolled-back millage rate this year, which I think is -- I think we're probably going to be somewhere in the middle. But let's assume for a moment that we go to the rolled-back millage rate. Well, that's great. We've cut taxes. Now, we roll the clock forward to next year, to the next budget cycle. We have growth. We have more assessed values. We have more people going here. And if we stay at that rolled-back millage rate that we just adopted this year, we're going to have more revenue. So, then, with the tax pledge, does that mean you have to roll the millage rate back that year, too? And every year that we grow in population, every year we grow in revenue, you're going to have -- you're going to be faced with, well, if this is a tax increase, then we have to roll the millage rate back every year that we're growing. That would be the pledge, and that really wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, because it would be irresponsible. And then all of a sudden, you know, we have a depression and values go down, and then you're faced with raising the millage rate to make up for some of those losses and, again, that's a tax increase. And so I just want to throw that out that, with these pledges, we've got to be very careful and kind of define what they mean. Now, Mr. Flaugh was talking about a state statute that says, basically, if your revenue goes up and you don't reduce the millage rate, that's a tax increase, and that's a state law that says that. Well, that state law is only there for purposes of directing counties and cities to advertise their budgets. It has nothing to do with pledges or September 7, 2023 Page 79 anything of that nature. It was purely a technical rule designed to tell cities and counties, when you have increased revenue, that's a tax increase for purposes of advertising, and that's all that it is. It's not something that's binding on anybody sitting here in terms of a tax pledge. I want to kind of throw that out because we -- you know, this really is the -- like I said, the 800-pound gorilla in the room, and I just think we have to be careful. And, Commissioner Hall, that's why I'm just saying -- COMMISSIONER HALL: No, I hear you, Burt. I appreciate it. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: This pledge is important. I understand that. But you've got to -- we have to kind of understand what it means. What are the definitions of a tax increase? And you basically said a tax increase is when we get more revenue this year than we got last year. COMMISSIONER HALL: No. It's when I get my tax bill at my house and I look at last years' taxes, and I get the bill this year, and it's 10 percent more, quite a bit of percent, you know, more money, and it goes up every single year. It just keeps going up and keeps going up. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: But if it's more because your property values went up -- COMMISSIONER HALL: So my point was earlier, to do something this budget cycle to stop the bleeding and then figure out where we're bleeding so that next year we may not even -- we may be in great shape. Just -- I'm not -- I'm not saying that we should cut half of our people with, you know, for a 30 percent increase, but I'm saying we could do something different to get better productivity out at less money so that we're not faced with this. I'm just willing to do -- look at something different instead of September 7, 2023 Page 80 just willy-nilly growing government year after year after year because we're growing, and we like pretty medians, and this is great, and that's good, and that's the way we've always done it. I'm just willing to look at something different. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: To me, I felt like if we stayed -- you know, this is my going-in position that staying millage neutral was not raising taxes. And I realize what Mr. Flaugh said is, like, well, but if you stayed millage neutral because of property values and a whole bunch of other things, you're actually collecting a whole bunch more money, and I get that. You know, I mean, nobody was whispering in my ear when I signed a three-sentence pledge because, in my mind, I felt like if we sat here and raised the millage, that's a no-brainer. That's raising taxes. But to me, millage neutral -- we are fortunate that we could stay millage neutral, and it would bring in the additional funds, and then maybe we get the best of both worlds, and I would walk out of here not feeling like I raised taxes, regardless of what the state statute said. And, you know, Commissioner Saunders, like you said, there's some interpretation in there. So my going-in position is millage neutral or better. I'm not here to raise any millage rates. And also, too, I like the idea of digging into the line items here and seeing if we've got some things that are fluff, overreach, that sort of thing. But to me, millage neutral, in my definition -- and I sleep fine at night saying if we voted for millage neutral and we get the benefit of the extra funds, we haven't raised taxes. It might not meet the definition of what the state says, but, you know, increasing the millage rate certainly is a clear indication that we've increased taxes. And like you said, Commissioner Hall, you know, you get a bigger tax bill, but if your property value doubled, you know, I -- when I pay a little bit more but my property value has doubled, I September 7, 2023 Page 81 actually feel okay about it, you know, because the alternative would be worse. But anyway. Commissioner McDaniel, sir, you, and then Commissioner Kowal. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah. And, you know, there again, I know and understand. I saw the deficits that Commissioner Saunders and I walked into because of previous decision-makers making a decision to spend the available funds that they have. And there's a graph that Ed's found from his historical archives here that talks about that transition from 2007 to '12 at the low and then back up to when Commissioner Saunders and I, in fact, came in place. At the end of the day, I concur with Commissioner LoCastro with regard to -- if we were to raise the rates, that's a tax increase. If the values increase, that's a -- that's a consequence of the value of your property. It costs more in taxes. But I have sat here for -- this will be my seventh year lobbying for some sort of a rate reduction for the residents of Collier County. I lobbied after Irma came along. I lobbied after the virus was amongst us. I lobbied after Ian went through. And I know my own bills at home have gone up. My insurance has basically doubled. My fuel bills have gone up by $2 a gallon. My -- pick something that hasn't gone up exponentially in the recent past, the last two years, to speak of. So I would really, really like for us -- I mean, it's a rather drastic cut, but taking Conservation Collier all the way back to zero is -- I mean, I think that -- candidly, I think that's a little bit extreme. I mean, Commissioner Saunders, when the electorate passed it and we brought it in, I lobbied for a stepping in to get to the .25, and taking them all the way back to zero is -- is and can be problematic. Because when I was going through these budgets, I was -- I think we ought to minimumly fund the estimated maintenance expense that's September 7, 2023 Page 82 associated, because we've bought more properties. They are stepping up on their performance of their maintenance. And so I think taking them all the way back to -- taking them all the way back to zero is a little bit -- a little bit much. COMMISSIONER HALL: It's a principal idea. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I understand. You know, and on a principal idea, we got along okay last year on the collected revenues that, in fact, got collected. Collier County got along okay. Paid our light bills. Took care of our employees. Took care of our sheriff. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you, Chair. And that's where I was going initially was, you know, we -- I hate to use these old cliches: You eat an elephant one bite at a time. So, you know, I look at a program -- like, I looked at all these programs and all these things, and the one that just keeps jumping out at me is Conservation Collier because it's just -- there's no -- like I said, it's just -- it's a great -- I understand the program, and I don't -- I don't think rolling back to zero is anywhere we want to do, but I believe it is somewhere we can cut, and it still can operate efficiently and move forward. And, you know -- and, you know, you get a promotion or you get a raise at work, and you get your check two weeks later, you paid more in taxes, but nobody raised the taxes you on, your income tax. It's because you're worth more now. And if your home value goes up, your net worth went up. So at times you do pay more in taxes when your taxes don't go up. It's just because you now are more wealthy than you were the day before. And, you know, that's the way I look at it. It's not raising taxes, and -- you're just now worth more money than the other guy. September 7, 2023 Page 83 But I think we can look at this particular program, and it just sticks out to me that it -- it's an unknown. It's not something we know we're going to spend this amount of money on next year. We don't know that. It's not -- it's not proposed to us until they bring us a list of properties and say, all right, well, these are worth -- this is what they're worth. And we look and see what we have, and when we can afford to buy them, we buy them. But if we can't afford to buy them one year and we only buy seven instead of 10, does that really hurt the program? No. We're still doing what the program's -- it's there to do. But at the same time, we're reducing the millage rate to our taxpayers -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: -- and still operating our county in a way that it deserved to be operated. And I just -- I just feel like we need to take a good look at that, because I think that is one area that won't affect the operation of the County, and we can still actually lower the millage rate and move forward this year and keep picking and taking more bites of that elephant as we move along as a board. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: One of the things that I'll just say is a challenge is Conservation Collier is an easy target, and I don't mean that in any kind of derogatory way. We've talked about it for a while, and we've studied the numbers. And you said it perfectly, Commissioner Kowal, you know, does -- does the county implode if we buy seven properties instead of 10? My challenge would just be, let's look as aggressively at all these -- and I know we are. You know, like you say, taking a bite out of the elephant. All of these are elephants. So I'm hoping tonight we take a bite out of each and every one of these and not just sort of -- and we're not. But let's make sure we're not just going for sort of the easy quick kills, the low-hanging fruit, and calling it a day. September 7, 2023 Page 84 And we're not doing that. But there's an awful lot on this list, and some of them are no-brainers. They're not even worth talking about because they need to be funded the way that they are, and we've already peeled that onion back. But there's more than just Conservation Collier on here. So, you know, I don't want folks to think we're sort of going for, you know, the one easy thing where the numbers are really big and then, you know, that's helping the equation to balance out. Commissioner McDaniel. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah. Well, I'm going to make another proposition, and that's in the unincorporated area. I'd like a -- I have a dollar amount in my head. I don't have a percentage, Ed. But I wanted to do it last year, and I wanted to do it -- I want to do it again. The previous board, before Commissioner Saunders and I came on, raised the ad valorem rate in the unincorporated area to the tune of 5 million a year, created a five-year program to build more landscape medians throughout the unincorporated area of Collier County. It took two years of me arguing to stop building more medians because of the excessive expense associated with their ongoing maintenance, and I relented to -- didn't get any success in a rolled-back rate on the unincorporated area, and left that money in for maintenance for the medians, which had accelerated at that time to close to $79,000 -- 78,000, $79,000 a lineal mile. So I would like to -- that $5 million in the unincorporated area, I'd like to see that come out and go back to what that rate was -- was, in fact, there. And I know we've been talking. I've talked to Trinity multiple times. But I don't think our expenses with regard to that perpetual maintenance for our medians has actually come down. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'll tell you what Commissioner September 7, 2023 Page 85 McDaniel's just talking about is a -- I do wish there were more people in the room, and I wish there was 100,000 people listening in at home, but I know they're not. But we get so many emails from people: Why don't we have plants? Why don't we have trees? Why don't you do this? And, you know, the basic expense isn't buying the palm tree. The biggest expense is keeping that palm tree alive for 50 years and cutting the fronds and picking up the trash that's in the -- in the mulch, and when Hurricane Ian comes in and all the mulch ends up in the sewer, re-mulching everything, the operation and maintenance costs. We do want our county to look pretty, but, you know, planting orchids and roses in every single median -- and I'm not saying we did that. But in some places, I think we did spend a lot of money, and the big dollar wasn't actually on the plants. It's been on the operation and maintenance and the sprinkler systems and the maintenance crews that comes by. That's where the big money is, obviously, so... Commissioner Hall, you're next, sir. COMMISSIONER HALL: Thank you. So I'm looking at the tax -- I'm looking at the -- at the chart. It's Exhibit 1A on Page 2 in the little budget book. It's the one that shows actual dollars based on last year's millage. The rollback millage, and then the proposed millage. And the way I'm reading this at the bottom line, on rollback figure, we still collect another $24.6 million with the rollback rate over actual dollars from last year. MR. JOHNSON: Commissioner, if I may. COMMISSIONER HALL: Yes. MR. JOHNSON: The adjusted tax dollars you see there does not include the TIF districts. So it's about $12 million higher than that on that first column, prior year. COMMISSIONER HALL: So there's even -- 12 million more September 7, 2023 Page 86 than this? MR. JOHNSON: No, the prior year. So the difference is a little bit less. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: What's in the bottom right corner. (Simultaneous crosstalk.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: What page are you on? Bottom right corner, what's it say? COMMISSIONER HALL: It says. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Agenda Item -- COMMISSIONER HALL: Agenda Item 1A, Page 2. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, Page 2. Yeah, okay. I'm on the right one. I just wanted to make sure I was following you. COMMISSIONER HALL: So in actual dollars collected, we're still at $13 million plus or -- MR. FINN: Yes, Chris. COMMISSIONER HALL: -- or 130 million. MR. FINN: A portion of that is attributable to growth -- MR. JOHNSON: Correct. The portion -- a portion of the current year rolled-back rate is attributable to the growth in the County. In the main funds, the General Fund, the growth was about $2.5 billion. There's about 8.5 million in growth included in there, and in the Unincorporated General Fund, it was -- hang on one second for me. Sorry. Bear with me. I've got to find the slide. It was 2.3 billion which -- so the levy attributed to the growth was $1.8 million in the unincorporated general area. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Was he talking to me or him? MR. FINN: No. I think that was -- that was a broader response. The answer is, yes, there is a slight increase the rolled-back level, but it's not as much as shown in this page, because this page is put together consistent with the TRIM requirements, which has some adjustments to it. September 7, 2023 Page 87 COMMISSIONER HALL: Okay. So I'm only half right? MR. FINN: Better to be half right than half wrong. So I don't know if I can assist. I'm not a terrific facilitator, but certainly there's been a lot of good discussion here. I think one of the things -- and we've kind of showed you a little chart on Conservation Collier, and that is kind of low-hanging fruit, but I'm not going to take advantage of that. If a slight adjustment was made in that fund to bring it in line with what the original projections were, one that went to -- went to the Board before it went out for referendum, that adjustment would equate to about $8 million a year reduction. Am right in that, Chris? MR. JOHNSON: Correct. MR. FINN: Very good. So that's one way to look at it, and that still would leave, order of magnitude, 35 to $40 million for acquisitions next year. It would also leave the trust fund for the maintenance whole, as Commissioner Kowal discussed. And it -- in the short run, if that adjustment were made, that certainly doesn't preclude the Board from increasing that millage going forward when the program stabilizes or otherwise has a pipeline that needs to be -- needs to be supported by the funding. Right now we have a little bit of a pipeline that we're trying to pass papers on, a little bit of a backlog in getting through those. In part, it's no different than it had been in the past, but there's just more focus on it. So I offer that to you. In the General Fund, the way staff's looking at it is we had established policy with the Board. We know what the difference is between the policy and where we are now, and Chris probably could show you that slide. I can tell you that the preponderance of that money has gone back into that emergency reserve. That was established a few years ago at the Board's direction. September 7, 2023 Page 88 I'll remind you -- and I think we all remember, about this time last year, we had just worked through Hurricane Ian, and I think staff reported to you at that time that all 35 or 37 million of that reserve that was in place at that time had to be used to support our operations for Hurricane Ian. What you're looking at here shows that some of the margin above policy, 17 million of it, is going back to restore that reserve. The budget policy was to put 5 million in there. So I think that leaves us with it 22 or 23 -- MR. JOHNSON: 22.5. MR. FINN: I think I shared kind of my observation with the Board on those reserves. The storm that passed the coast here last week, had that been 50 or 75 miles closer, the reserve that we're talking about to budget next year would already have been allocated and spent. I know I'm -- I'm trying to facilitate a little bit. I'm going to say that the County Manager's expanded requests in the main on this sheet is, in fact, the swale program for the Estates. That certainly is a program that has merit. That gets to some of the discussion the Board has had on the level of service and trying to meet level-of-service objectives, the needs of the constituents, meeting those needs while at the same time trying to balance the need to control -- control taxes and control budget. I think somewhere between where we are today and maybe leaving some of these more critical components above budget policy might be a target, perhaps a mix of some money, as I discussed, from Conservation Collier, with -- and I'll -- arbitrarily, I'll start off the bidding at $5 million from the General Fund. That might leave us with an adjustment of some $12 million overall, and it might well be a start that gets us down the road towards more scrutiny of the budget as we go through the process instead of forcing ourselves to do it all September 7, 2023 Page 89 at the end here. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah. I want to be careful. And, Ed, you -- I want to be careful because we're -- you know, we're not as intimate with these budgets and these budget processes. We get to staring at what perceptively is a large reserve, and we think we can tap that reserve when, in actuality, those reserves are gathered over a period of years for projects for -- and I'm quite intimate with the MSTU and the CRA in Immokalee. I'm in and amongst that all the time. And I'm -- so when I was going through these budgets and looking -- you know, I'll use the Rock Road MSTU again with its -- with its reserve that's sitting there. I don't want to -- I don't want to tap the reserve if there's a plan in place for accumulation of funds for future projects, whether it be resurfacing or so on and so forth. I don't want -- I don't want to put us in a position, because we've been very good throughout the years of accumulating these reserves. My question is: We put a new line item in the budget five years ago now, four years ago, the Capital Asset Replacement and Maintenance Fund. MR. FINN: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: We did an enormous amount of data entry over at Solid Waste while we were ascertaining what the useful life is and what the ongoing expenses are and associated replacement costs, and it was considerably underfunded for quite some time. How much -- I wasn't able to actually find that in the line in here. Do you -- I see you reading it in your -- in your printed form inside your eyes. Do you recall how much we're putting in that this year? September 7, 2023 Page 90 MR. FINN: In the reserve you're specifically referencing, I heard you say Solid Waste. Is that -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Capital Asset Replacement and Maintenance Fund. MR. FINN: In the 301 fund. So what we're putting in is -- and -- it's about 22 -- $22 million. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Twenty-two this year? MR. FINN: With -- with what you're seeing on your screen here. So the 17 here is above the policy. The policy was 5. So, in total, if we to leave portion in the budget -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. MR. FINN: -- we would be putting in 17 in addition to the 5 for a total of 22. Last year -- and Chris will correct me as he has been right along -- I believe it was $35 million when we entered into the hurricane, and we reallocated that to both emergency response and some of the ongoing repairs. One of the questions I was asked that was a good question is, well, we have received some FEMA money back at that point. That is a true -- that is true. We're now using that FEMA money in part to cash flow the permanent repair portion of the hurricane -- hurricane response. So that money is still tied up in the hurricane is what I'm saying. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Gotcha, gotcha. So -- and there again, that's an imperative fund for us as a government, as a community. If that -- if that fund is -- if that fund is fully funded up for what it's supposed to be worth, we're going to be able to then manage our assets on a far -- on a far better level. We'll be able to go through that fund and ascertain the useful life of an asset that doesn't need to be replaced. We're collecting money for its replacement in 50 years, but we don't have to -- we don't have to September 7, 2023 Page 91 have that money for 50 years. So when, inevitably, the next hurricane comes along, we'll be able to reach in and pull from that fund directly to be able to take care of natural disasters and things that transpire. So I'm really happy to see -- because I know when we first established it, the first couple of years it only got 5 million a year, and now we're getting closer to what the actual number should be, which is somewhere -- I think I heard last somewhere, 24, 25 million a year needs to be put into that -- into that account. MR. FINN: And that -- it's interesting. We talked a little bit about growth. One of the things that also grows is kind of our inventory of assets. So an example of that brought up here earlier was the Big Corkscrew Park. Big Corkscrew Parks represents a substantial investment. I'm going to say that it's probably -- hard investment is probably in excess of 40, above and beyond kind of the soft costs. That probably has a 25-year life. The set-aside to recover that, order of magnitude, needs to be in the $1.5 million a year. That park is -- the phase of the park I'm referring to is done at this point. I can tell you that that $1.5 million, in concept, is not part of this reserve money we're talking about right now. So, arguably, that would be a layer on next year that we would say, park -- we're now fully utilizing the park. We want to do a capital recovery on that. That's 1.5 million. A similar -- similar thing should take place with stormwater assets and transportation assets. Now, there's a blend between the amount of money you want to set aside and the amount of money you want to cash-flow, and that's really kind of where the art of it comes out. You don't want to set aside every single dime, because then you end up with a vast reserve that's only used in a small increment every year. So there's a blend that we need to get to that's the right September 7, 2023 Page 92 amount. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let me ask you a question before I go to Commissioner Hall, who's lit up here. You were saying we got through Irma and Ian, you know, relatively well, in part because we had reserves, you know, at significant amounts. MR. FINN: And if I may, sir, it was particularly Ian. Hurricane Irma was before we had that reserve in place. And in order to cash-flow that hurricane, we had to reduce, substantially, our capital program, particularly -- it was particularly impactful on the utility side. And Amy will tell you the impacts of kind of stopping the momentum on those things. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: That's the answer I was searching for. I sort of already knew the answer, but I really wanted to get that on the record. Much like Conservation Collier is an easy target, it might be easy to sit here and look at the reserves and go, hey, let's thin those down a little bit, and maybe we roll the dice and a hurricane doesn't hit, and then my question would be, well, what if we did that and, like you said, Idalia would have taken a right-hand turn and crashed into us and we had minimum reserves? And the answer is, you beg, borrow, and steal from everything else. There's no -- we're not printing money in the basement. There's no magical -- we don't go to the bank and take out a big, you know, $100 million loan to start fixing everything. We're in a pickle. So the reserves might sound like sort of, you know, free money off to the side that, you know, we could thin out a bit and use elsewhere, but we could really put ourselves into a -- and you're basically saying during the time of Irma, you did have to pull from some other things because, you know, the money doesn't grow on trees, so... Because we've toyed with that a little bit here. We've looked at some of the reserves. And nobody made a proposal to wean those September 7, 2023 Page 93 down at all, but it looks sometimes enticing to do that and go, yeah, you know, we'll take our chances, but we've been turned here before. So, smartly, you know, people up here, and even our predecessors built those back up for a reason, and it showed its weight in gold, obviously. Commissioner Hall, and then Commissioner Saunders. COMMISSIONER HALL: I totally concur; reserves are just wise business. But I do have a question for you: If we could get you another $500 million, what would you do with it? MR. FINN: Five hundred million dollars? COMMISSIONER HALL: Five hundred million dollars. You've got 500 on top of this budget. What would you do with it? MR. FINN: I'm looking at Ms. Patterson, and I think she is raring to answer that question. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Median beautification. MS. PATTERSON: You'll see the AUIR later in the year. And so my answer would have to be that we would dedicate more money to transportation and stormwater where you're going to be facing substantial shortfalls. Even with all of the money that we've placed in both of those programs, we have a growing county, and we have aging infrastructure. And so Trinity is going to tell you, when we get to the AUIR time, what her five-year program and her 10-year program looks like. And I'll tell you that even with the $60 million that the Board helped us with several years ago for stormwater, it's just the tip of the iceberg in the need of stormwater. So as much as I'd like to say beautification and things like that, it is infrastructure, infrastructure, and infrastructure. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: The three most important things. September 7, 2023 Page 94 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yep. Commissioner Kowal. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I was just going to follow up with the reserves. And, you know, I know a lot of people put in perspective is, you know, we had 24/7 coastal security going on with our sheriff's department, you know, and EMS, fire, and then, you know, not counting the countless hours that our County staff with all or Road and Bridge and everything they did, so that a lot of that chunk of that money went to just paying these people to be out there to provide these services that was greatly needed. I mean, for weeks and weeks, we had coastal security deputies 24/7 protecting these homes that were abandoned, you know, that still had a lot of their families' heirlooms and things left behind that -- there were people coming over here. There were people in tow trucks trying to steal cars in our communities in the middle of the night, you know, thinking that it was just going to be unprotected. But, you know, that -- thank God we had, you know, the money there to provide those services in the time of need. So, you know, just to put a little more perspective, this is not just money that went to just cleaning up or fixing. You know, a lot of money went to that, too, so... MR. FINN: And if I may, when we're talking about public safety, it is, in fact, one of the priorities on our strategic plan. And I will say that when I tell you that -- the core budget that meets budget policy, the Sheriff had come in with what he needed. He was set at a higher level than everyone else, and that was the appropriate thing to do. I just want to make that point. When we talk about money above policy, we're not talking about any money going to the Sheriff. Rather the Sheriff was properly funded from the policy standpoint. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Correct, and always will be. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders. September 7, 2023 Page 95 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you. I've got a couple questions, just to get a couple numbers down, and then a comment. If we went to the rolled-back millage rate, what is the reduction in gross revenue to the County over -- what is the total decrease? I think it's somewhere around 50 or 60 million, but just give me that number. MR. JOHNSON: It's going to be 62 million. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Sixty-two million, okay. If we just use the 4.9 percent guidance, how much of an increase over last year's revenue is that, the 4.9 percent? MR. JOHNSON: So that guidance is specific to the General Fund and the Unincorporated Area General Fund. So let me just do that real quick for you. About 35 million. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thirty-five million, okay. And then if we kept the millage rate steady, how much of an increase is that over last year's budget? MR. JOHNSON: Kept the millage rate steady? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yep. MR. JOHNSON: It's going to be the -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Sixty-two million. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. That makes sense. All right. So I started out off. MR. JOHNSON: Well -- and with that, it's the 62, but that includes the growth. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Right. Yeah, okay. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: That includes the what? I'm sorry. MR. JOHNSON: The growth, the increase for growth. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. September 7, 2023 Page 96 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. So over and above the guidance, we're talking about 27 million more than what the initial guidance was. So I'm going to kind of make a suggestion. And I said this at the beginning: Maybe we can give the staff some guidance tonight, not set it in stone, have them come back at our board meeting on Tuesday with what the impacts are of that, which means Mr. Finn's going to have to work 80 hours this weekend instead of the 60 hours he normally works on a weekend. MR. FINN: It's always a pleasure, sir. Thank you. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: May I have another? COMMISSIONER HALL: Say it with a bigger smile. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: And let's get -- I mean, the issue -- we're not going to be able to go through line item after line item after line item tonight and say, well, let's cut $40,000 out of this and the Rock Road MSTU. You know, we'll be here under 4:00 tomorrow morning, and we won't make any progress. So we've had four commissioners that have signed a pledge. Commissioner LoCastro doesn't look at that as keeping us from going to the -- keeping the millage rate steady, but still we have three commissioners that are desirous of rolling the millage rate back. And I start off by saying if there's a motion and a second, that's going to pass. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I don't know that they've said that, though. Have I missed something? I mean, I think we've had healthy discussion here, but I haven't heard three commissioners say -- or lean towards -- I mean, I can't speak for them. I'm not in their heads. But, I mean, the only thing I've stated is I feel like if we voted right now on -- if I voted on staying millage rate and it did bring more money because property values have gone up, I feel like I'm meeting my pledge of not raising taxes. I know Keith will disagree with me, but I would sleep fine tonight feeling like I didn't September 7, 2023 Page 97 increase the millage rate. If I did something even better than that and rolled back a little bit or we cut Conservation Collier, all the better. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought there were three commissioners -- COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I just want to make clear, I didn't -- I want to look at certain items and say, you know, we probably can roll this back, because we don't have to do it as a whole thing, from what I understand. We can take it line by line and say, this particular program we could probably operate at the rolled-back millage rate. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Oh, absolutely. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: And in reality we're actually lowering the taxes when we walk away at the end of the meeting in September. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It hasn't happened. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying we have to go across the board and, you know, my particular position, because I understand the importance of having these -- you know, the reserve and these type of things like that are very important to this county and the unexpected growth. I mean, I made that pretty clear. So, you know -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So are you suggesting that we go through each one of these millages tonight and reduce them -- I mean -- COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Well, I could just say I would really like staff to look at Conservation Collier just to start. I know it's a low-hanging fruit, but once again, I don't think it changes anything else on this list if we lower that particular millage rate. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I agree. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah. And then look at -- like September 7, 2023 Page 98 Commissioner McDaniel said, you know, Rock Road, you know, certain ones that we can -- they can look at over the weekend and say, we could probably roll this back to a millage rate, and we put it on the table, and we stand here and -- we're grown men. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Then I -- I was trying to keep it a little simple, but maybe that's -- I'll sit back and listen on how we're going to do that. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: How do you feel about having an agenda item next week at our board meeting and talk specifically -- and maybe, for my brain anyway, come up with actual -- I mean, Commissioner Hall suggested taking Conservation Collier to zero. I suggested a $5 million revenue reduction in the unincorporated area. Those all translate to percentages to the ad valorem, but with those as suggestions tonight, actually having an agenda item next Tuesday to allow staff the chance to digest and us to discuss it. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: That's kind of what I was getting at, but I was trying to keep it simple in the sense that we've got three commissioners that have talked about reducing some millage rates here. I think all four -- all five of us would agree that some millage rates need to -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So why don't we see if there's a motion to roll the millage rate back some portion overall and then have staff come back on Tuesday and tell us where their recommendations are to cut. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Second. Second. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. Well, hang on a second. Because, you know, Commissioner Hall, I think, started off by saying any tax increase is a tax increase and you're not going to support it, but you've kind of come off that and said, well, maybe this September 7, 2023 Page 99 is something we can work out year after year. We don't have to go to the rolled-back millage rate this budget cycle to violate your pledge to reduce taxes. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Can I interrupt you? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Sure. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: May I? And I'm not being argumentative. But everyone has a different interpretation about specifically that pledge. And you've brought it up multiple times. We've all signed the pledge. We all -- and we basically have different opinions as to what that pledge constitutes. I think it's incumbent upon all government leaders to do the best they can for their taxpayers and effectuate -- effectuate as efficient of operations as is physically possible, irrespective of a pledge. I believe that's my duty as a government official. I've striven to do that since I came into office. Be that as it may, I still like seconding your motion with regard to that. But let's not talk about that pledge anymore. I mean -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. No, but I didn't make a motion just yet. But what we're talking about is if we stuck with the -- and I'm not suggesting that we do this, but I'm just -- the numbers are pretty clear. If we stuck with the 4.9 percent guidance, we would be collecting $35 million more this year than we did last year. If we kept the millage rate steady, we would be collecting $62 million more than we did yesterday [sic]. That difference is $27 million. I'm suggesting, just to keep it simple, let's pick a number, some portion of that 27 million, and say to staff, we want to cut X out of that 27 million; come back on Tuesday and tell us how we can do that, which would include reducing Conservation Collier to some extent. So the question would become how much of that -- and I think September 7, 2023 Page 100 it's a pretty simple question. How much of that $27 million, Commissioner Hall, would you feel would need to be cut if we -- if we adopted the guidance of 4.9 percent? If we say, okay, well, that was our guidance; we're not going to go below our guidance that we all adopted. So that leaves us with $27 million on the table that we can deal with. That's a pretty simple number. How much of that number would you have to cut to feel comfortable with the -- with moving forward, and can we direct staff to come back on Tuesday with how they would accomplish that? So as an example, we could say, well, we want to cut, you know, 15 million of that 27 million. Staff, come back and tell us how you're going to do that. Again, just trying to find a way to simplify this tonight because we'll be here until midnight trying to go through these different line items. But staff can come back and tell us, well, we'll cut all of it out of Conservation Collier or we'll cut two-thirds of it. But I think we need to kind of hone in on how much of a budget cut do you really need to have to satisfy your -- and this is for all three commissioners that have talked about reducing Conservation Collier and reducing budgets. How much do you need to cut to feel comfortable about it? And then let staff tell us where we can do it. COMMISSIONER HALL: I hear what you're saying. I don't know tonight. My thoughts were to go with the rolled-back number and then fluff it back up to the 4.92 percent increase. We're saying the same thing. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, we are -- (Simultaneous crosstalk.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: You're saying totally different things. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We're sort of saying something similar. September 7, 2023 Page 101 COMMISSIONER HALL: We're getting to the same figures. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, yeah, but the problem with that is that we're directing staff to go to the rolled-back millage rate when we know we're not going to ultimately do that, and that puts them in a position of having to spend a whole lot of time -- COMMISSIONER HALL: I'm with you. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So we're at the -- COMMISSIONER HALL: So you're saying go with the guidance figure of 4.92 percent increase. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Tell them -- and tell them how to get there. COMMISSIONER HALL: And let them tell us how to get there. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, no. I was saying that -- because I don't know that -- well, yeah, I mean that would get us until Tuesday, and then we can decide Tuesday whether we want to say, okay, well, you've -- that's a $27 million cut from what is in our current budget proposal. It's 27 million. If they can accomplish that without cutting into services and things, well, maybe that's a good result, but on Tuesday we can say, you did a good job. You got us down to 4.9 percent, but that's going to leave out some projects and things that we want to fund, and so maybe we increase that a little bit. It gives us the flexibility. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And then in the end when the algorithm was sort of finalized, the millage rate would be somewhere between the proposed millage rate and the rolled-back rate. It would be somewhere sort of in the middle of that, right? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Exactly. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, yeah. MR. FINN: And if I may -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'd love that even more. September 7, 2023 Page 102 MR. FINN: If I may, Mr. Chairman, just on the numbers, we're okay. The margin -- the gross margin over policy in the General Fund is about 34, and in 111, it's about 7. So that's the gross. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah. We're just talking just a gross number because, again, if we tried to do it by different funds tonight, we'd have to go through each fund. MR. FINN: I understand. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. I'll make a motion, then. And this is not a motion to set in stone a new millage rate. That's going to be decided at our meeting in two weeks. But the motion would be to direct staff to tell us how -- what the impact would be if we went to the budget guidance of 4.9 percent and had a millage rate reduction that would reflect a 4.9 percent increase in our overall budgeting as our guidance, and that's a $27 million figure tonight. And if -- that doesn't bind us to reducing that number more, but at least it gives staff some guidance to come back and say, well, what is that going to do to us. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Can I ask a question? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Go ahead, sir. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I don't want to jump off on my light and stuff. The budget guidance -- where'd you come up with the 4.9 percent at? MR. FINN: And if I am -- I'm so sorry. The budget guidance in terms of taxable value and growth was 4.75 percent. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: 4.75 percent. MR. FINN: 4.9 is certainly close, but -- and that was just relative to the tax fund. So the policy generally said tax funds are going to be treated a certain way. It's going to be 4.75 anticipated growth in taxable value. September 7, 2023 Page 103 For our revenue-supported funds, they are what has historically been called "revenue centric." So they're allowed to establish their budgets in accordance with that. So we're honing in on just the ad valorem-supported funds. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah. That's all I was talking about. And if it's 4.75 percent and not 4.9, that was just my mistake. COMMISSIONER HALL: Puts it to 4.2. MR. FINN: And I just have one more -- one more little, tiny bit of clarification. The other part of the policy as it involves MSTUs is the policy was essentially revenue neutral or rollback unless they had an advisory board that recommended a different number. That was -- so they weren't, strictly speaking, in the same 4.75 policy. They had a little more flexibility when they had advisory boards. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, I think -- I'm just trying to hone in on that 4.75 percent policy that we approved, and staff built a budget around that. And if we go back to that number, the 4.75 percent increase over rollback, that is, I think, a $27 million cut somewhere -- or plus or minus. And staff can come back and tell us, well, how can they accomplish that? How much of that comes out of Conservation Collier? How much of it comes out of other things? And then we can then, at that point, say on Tuesday, well, we don't really want to cut these -- some of these programs. Are there others? But that will give us at least a starting point. Right now we don't have a starting point. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Ms. Patterson, what do you think? Because we say up here, a lot of times, send it back to staff. Well, then that -- that means you are the talking head back to staff, and then, you know, you're in the room without us selling this, explaining it or -- you know, so having said that, what's your -- what's your September 7, 2023 Page 104 comment? But we don't -- I want to make sure we don't give you a homework assignment that we walk out of here feeling good about and then, you know, you're banging your head against the wall and going, I'll come up with something, you know, as I always do, but I'm not sure we're doing it any better. I think we're doing it different. And we want to do it better. So I want to hear your comments to what Commissioner Saunders is proposing and what we're all sort of gravitating to, because you're the one, then, that has to sort of sell it, explain it, and bring it back to us. MS. PATTERSON: I definitely -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Don't say you serve at the pleasure of the Board and we'll do whatever you guys do, because we hear that all the time -- MS. PATTERSON: No, no, no. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- but we're, you know -- MS. PATTERSON: I was actually going to say I hate this less than trying to -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: That's right. You hate it less? MS. PATTERSON: I hate it less than trying to pick it apart, you know, $10,000 at a time. I think it will be a -- it will be an interesting exercise, and I think that it is -- it's going to be very revealing for us to provide to you how we get to that number. Of course, it does pain me to look at the list that's up on the viewer now and on your screens to show you the logical places where some of this would, hypothetically, come from. I will say that some of these things -- everything on here, obviously, is on here because we think that it's a good decision and are needed, but we're -- on some things where are logical cuts, we're going to be going backwards, so -- but I think that's for us to explain to you why, as September 7, 2023 Page 105 well as how we might balance that with Conservation Collier and let you see what that looks like. Because, again, for you to make informed decisions, you need to see where the possibilities are. There's no -- there's no easy magic bullet here at all. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I do remember on some of the budget increase proposals that were well over policy, if you peel it back, there were some that were asking for well more over what we had suggested because they wanted to increase technology or do -- you know, do a bunch of -- you know, wanted to deliver a better service or -- but, you know, a lot of times we always say, is it a must-have? Is it a nice-to-have? Is it a -- you know. So in some cases there were some things -- you know, we weren't in the middle of that discussion then, but -- and I don't want -- I'm not going to pick on anybody that's on this list, but there was a few things where the increases were really nice bells and whistles to add to your office or to your department, but is it really a must-have? And I don't want to overtighten our belts, because some of the things are nice-to-haves, but they also fall in the must-have category. They're sort of in between. But there was a couple of things that I -- that I think -- and I guess we'll find out, you know, when you peel it back, but -- MS. PATTERSON: We live in a really nice place, and there's a high expectation for service here. So while they may not be must-have, I think your residents here feel differently. You hear it when they go out to places and things maybe aren't as perfect as they like or when things are not as new as we would like them to be. It will get to the crux of that and really where our priorities lie. So I think that that's important. It's really, really important to have these conversations, as painful as they are, even for us as staff. We need to understand your priorities as much as you need to understand ours. We're the September 7, 2023 Page 106 day-to-day practitioners of all of this, and you're the front line, and you hear from your residents about what they love and hate about all of the things that we do. So it's a -- it's a good exercise for us to do this for you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: If this motion passes, just to get a discussion going, I would urge you to put this on our web page that this is coming up on Tuesday as a walk-on agenda item. Do the press release. Do all the things that you would do to let the public know that we're going to be discussing cuts from what's been advertised as our proposed budget potentially so that we can get folks to come in and say whether they want this or not. And I will say this to Mr. Flaugh. And, again, thank you for your comments, and they were well taken. We have almost no one coming to our budget hearings to say they want to cut any of our expenses. Last year we had, I think, four people, two couples from California, that said in California, taxes are a horrible word, and they wanted to cut our millage rate, but they really had no basis for it. It was just simply they bought a new home, and taxes are higher on a new home, and so we didn't pay a whole lot of attention to them. But the point is that most of the time we have people coming to these meetings and saying, we want you to spend more money. We had the big debate with animal services one year. But we've never really had any push by the general public to come in and say taxes are too high. We want you to reduce them. And so I think the manager is correct that most people really appreciate the beauty of this community, and they want to keep it that way, and I think -- I think maybe that's part of the discussion on Tuesday is what does the public really want from us? Because I don't -- I don't hear many comments about reducing taxes. I've gotten one or two emails this time, but that's really about it. September 7, 2023 Page 107 And so advertise it. Let people know we're going to be talking about this. MS. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And when we have this item come up next week, there again, I don't want to put us back into that UFR kick ever again. I don't want to do that ever again. I want -- and I think if we are -- if we engage more and engage the public, we'll get opinions from the folks that live here, if we have more discussion with regard to these budgets and these processes and what priorities are picked as being important and not. So the engagement of the community, I concur with Commissioner Saunders, is imperative, so -- and if we do these discussions more than at 8:30 at night on one of the two budget hearings that we actually have -- that was one of my thoughts. With expansion of the Board's schedule throughout the summer was to have these more in-depth conversations during our extra meeting times that we had appropriated for this board. So did you -- did you -- did you make a motion? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I did. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: 4.75 increase revenue over last, is that what you're talking about? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Go back to what -- for just conversation purposes, go back to the guidance. I thought it was 4.9 percent, but it's 4.7 -- whatever the number is. And so that leaves us with a delta of $27 million over the steady millage rate -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Plus or minus. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- versus the guidance, and then that's where -- that's the number that staff's going to have to start looking at, how do they cut that 27 million, and then we can decide whether we want to maintain that or put some of that back in and September 7, 2023 Page 108 raise it from the 4.75 percent of guidance up to some other number. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let me ask my colleagues a question. I want to go home knowing what your answers are to this. If, in the end, the millage rate that we pass is any number less than prior year -- it still might be more than the rolled-back rate, but if it's anything less than prior year, do you feel like we just cut taxes? Commissioner Hall. Do you understand the question? So we don't roll -- we don't roll the millage -- we don't take the full rolled-back millage rate, but if, in the end after we juggle all these numbers here, we pass a millage rate that is -- that is anything less than the prior year's millage rate, do you feel like we just cut taxes? COMMISSIONER HALL: No, I don't, but I hate it less. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Commissioner McDaniel? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yes. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yes, and I will tell folks that we cut taxes. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Flaugh may disagree with that -- MR. FLAUGH: I think the State disagrees with you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal, what do you think? COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I think we cut taxes. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, because even though it would -- even the proposed rolled-back millage rate gives us more money because of the way the economy is, the land -- COMMISSIONER HALL: Inflation. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, the overall valuation. But I really focus just on the millage rate. And it goes back to sort of what September 7, 2023 Page 109 Commissioner Hall said in the beginning. It's like what are we charging people? And to me, if, in the end, you know -- I mean, the rolled-back millage rate is, you know -- it's great and wonderful to pat ourselves on the back if we defaulted to that, but I can tell you that -- you know, you talk about history -- and Commissioner Saunders gave us a good history lesson that, you know, be careful what you do because there's going to be five people up here well after us at some point that will be looking back on what we did today or over the next couple weeks. And if we don't do it right, if we take too big of a bite out of that elephant, people are going to be paying for it, so -- and I know we have five smart people up here right now that don't want to do that. But I would sleep well at night feeling, if we went to any number less than the prior year millage rate, we just cut taxes. And I think most people would look at it that way. But -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Even if it's 20 bucks a house, it's 20 bucks a house. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, absolutely. County Manager, do you feel like you have enough to go on? I know we have a motion here, and we can finalize it with a second and then a vote. But before we do that, questions? Comments? Anything? MS. PATTERSON: I don't believe so. I'll look at Mr. Finn and see if he has any questions. MR. FINN: Not really. The numbers may move around a little bit relative to what we're talking about. We're going to identify the margin between where we are today in the policy, we're going to scrutinize that ourselves, and I think the County Manager's going to make some recommendations in areas she may be willing to adjust, and we'll bring that back to you as a walk-on item on Tuesday. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Advertise. September 7, 2023 Page 110 MR. FINN: Yes, sir. MS. PATTERSON: We'll place it on our website and -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Advertise it so the public knows about it. MS. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Before I go to Commissioner McDaniel, County Attorney, any comments that you have? Anything that might help us go into the future with what you've heard today? MR. KLATZKOW: No. I mean, today you're just setting the tentative millage -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. MR. KLATZKOW: -- and that is going to be what Chris will be doing next, and then you have some time to figure out whether or not you want to reduce it. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Let me make sure that there's some clarification here. We're not changing -- we're not setting a millage rate tonight -- MR. KLATZKOW: No. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- that's lower than the steady millage rate. We're saying -- just because we may hear back from the public that they don't want us to cut as much as we're talking about. So I don't want it to -- I misunderstood what you were saying. Today you said we're setting a tentative millage rate. That tentative millage rate is still the steady millage rate until we change it at our next meeting. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: You're giving guidance that once we run through the math equation, the end result will be some magical millage rate number, and I would expect, if you find the cuts or -- you know, that we're proposing or you tighten some things or whatnot, the millage rate would be less than the -- than the prior year September 7, 2023 Page 111 millage rate. It would have to be. MR. FINN: My master's degree is in magic. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. MS. PATTERSON: Yes, sir, but tonight we're not going to guess what that number is. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Right, right. Well, none of us know what that number is. MS. PATTERSON: That's right. So -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: When you come back and we say yes, no, yes, no, yes, then somebody's going to do the math, and it's going to spit out a millage rate number, and it's going to be somewhere between the prior year millage rate and the rolled-back rate, probably. Right? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: No. It's going to be somewhere between the standard -- the steady -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: The proposed, I'm sorry, yeah. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- steady millage rate and the guidance. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, I gotcha. And we don't know what that number is -- MS. PATTERSON: No, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- because we haven't decided anything, but it will be -- it will be something less. MR. FINN: And I think we're in good shape. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I think Commissioner McDaniel wants to talk about Rock Road again. Sir, go ahead. Commissioner McDaniel. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: You keep it up. You keep it up. I'm going to light -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: We tease because we love. We have a lady on the line right now. She lives on Rock Road. She September 7, 2023 Page 112 wants to talk to her District 5 commissioner. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: All three people -- all three watching are going to hear what I have to say. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sir, the floor is yours. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I just want to -- I just want to say this out loud. I'm looking at this from a very simplistic standpoint. We collected $529 million in tax last year, per this Page 13 in my budget book that may be dated. Chris. MR. JOHNSON: If I may, the actual tax last year was 542. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Collected. MR. JOHNSON: So that number you're looking at is the adjusted tax dollars, which is a number that comes from our TRIM forms, and there's some deductions in there. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay, 542. And the proposed collected dollars with the rate neutral amount are how much? MR. JOHNSON: Six fifteen. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: So that number stays -- (Simultaneous crosstalk.) MR. JOHNSON: That number stays the same, and so does your rolled-back number. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And rolled-back stays the same, 553? MR. JOHNSON: Correct. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Six hundred and fifteen. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I mean, those are really the -- those are the big -- this is the meat right here. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well -- and that was where I was trying to get a line on what Commissioner Saunders was discussing, because with the rolled-back dollar amount, my chart's September 7, 2023 Page 113 saying 553 with a rolled-back rate, which would be an increase over last year's revenue of 10, 11 million. MR. FINN: Commissioner, I think -- I think we're on a pretty good trajectory right now. We're going to have an opportunity to organize our thoughts completely in terms of numbers. We're going to be able to communicate these things completely to the Board on Tuesday, and we'll be prepared to discuss exactly what the Board wants to discuss. I understand where you're going with this. I'm just a little hesitant to bang on too many keys right now and start nodding my head and get myself in trouble. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Hear me tapping my foot. MR. FINN: What's the expression? The toad eating yellow jackets or something. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall. COMMISSIONER HALL: I just want to -- I've appreciated the discussion. I'm not being just dogmatic about "I will not raise taxes." I'm listening, and I like the discussion. And I'm also -- I'm not being shortsighted. I just want to see us start turning this ship, this massive government-funded ship, in a better direction, and that's what I -- I just want to get a head start with this year to see what we can do, and then that allows us to go to work to really -- to really dig in and do the hard stuff. There's going to be some hard decisions made down the line, but I think with this crew, we're well able to make those decisions. So with that, I'll second the motion. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I've got a motion from Commissioner Saunders, a second from Commissioner Hall. All in favor? COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye. September 7, 2023 Page 114 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously. See you Tuesday. MR. FINN: Thank you, sir. If I may, Mr. Chairman, we kind of return to our regularly scheduled program, which would be essentially a reading of those millages. I don't think it's going to take much more than 15 minutes to get through our next steps. And if that -- if that pleases the Chair, we'll go forward with that. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Can I just ask you one question, just because we're all making notes, and, you know, we'll all come back here on Tuesday? Explain to me again why that 529 wasn't correct. And I'm not saying it's incorrect, but why it's really 542 because that's -- I mean, that's, you know, a $20 million difference, I mean -- so why isn't the typed number 542? MR. JOHNSON: You're talking about the 529 in the adjusted -- (Simultaneous crosstalk.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, right. MR. JOHNSON: -- dollars? When they -- when they calculate that for the purposes of the TRIM process, they remove the TIF district, the tax associated with our TIF districts -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. MR. JOHNSON: -- which include our CRAs and the City of Naples included and the innovation zones. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Why do they do that? MR. JOHNSON: You know, that's a good question. It has to September 7, 2023 Page 115 do with the calculation of rollback. MR. FINN: What they do is they don't want to -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: But it makes that number a little bit misleading when we're trying to compare all the columns. MR. FINN: And remember, this is put together for -- primarily for TRIM purposes. We certainly -- this is kind of a discussion that, in my years here, we've never had, but maybe being newly sensitized to do it, we can be a little more clear with that on a separate schedule. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I mean, on Tuesday -- and like you said, these are working documents. But as we march to Tuesday, we really need things that are down to the last decimal point, because, you know, we are talking, you know, about 20, $30 million here, and if there's something that's sort of hidden or missing or we didn't pick up on it, there might be money to be had, or we might make a decision we're all happy with and then, you know, you pop out and tell us, oh, you know, there was an extra 25 million you guys forgot. You actually didn't save, you know, a certain amount of money. So, you know, less working documents and more finality on Tuesday for sure would be helpful, I think. MR. FINN: I think your advice is spot on. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Spot on, yeah, okay. COMMISSIONER HALL: Make it country simple. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, okay. MR. FINN: With that, are we good, Mr. Attorney? MR. KLATZKOW: I think we need to do the Kabuki dance, but yes. MR. FINN: We're good. We'll see if he can get to that right now. So we're going to -- going back to our original program. We're going to go back to Item 1D, which is an announcement of the tentative millage rates and percentage changes in property tax rates. September 7, 2023 Page 116 Pursuant to this requirement, Chris is obligated to announce the tentative millage rates, the percentage change, and the rolled-back rate into the record. So we're going to refer to Tab 1E, it says here, and then you'll find the resolution providing for the tentative '24 millage rates. Florida TRIM statutes require that this be read in, and we have a -- because we have a change in our financial system, we have, actually, two fund numbers that constitute the funds at the moment. Chris may be forced to read both of those. So with that, I'll turn it over to Mr. Johnson. MR. JOHNSON: Thank you, Mr. Finn. For the record, Christopher Johnson, your director of Corporate Financial Management Services. And if it's all right with you guys, I'll just go ahead and get started. We'll start off with the General Fund, fund No. 001, new number 0001, the proposed millage rate is 3.5645. The rolled-back millage rate is 3.2043. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 11.42 percent. Water Pollution Control Fund 114, new fund 1017, the proposed millage rate is 0.0293. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.0263. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is -- I'm sorry -- 11.41 percent. Conservation Collier Fund 172, new fund 1061, the proposed millage rate is 0.2500. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.2242. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 11.51 percent. Unincorporated General Fund 111, new fund No. 1011, the proposed millage rate is 0.8069. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.7280. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 10.84 percent. Golden Gate Community Center Fund 130, new fund 1605, the proposed millage rate is 0.1862. The rolled-back millage rate is September 7, 2023 Page 117 0.1682. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 10.7 percent. Victoria Park Drainage Fund 134, new fund 1608, the proposed millage rate is 0.3814. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.3399. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 12.21 percent. Naples Park Drainage Fund 139, new fund 1613, the proposed millage rate is 0.0041. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.0035. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 17.14 percent. Vanderbilt Beach MSTU Fund 143, new fund No. 1617, the proposed millage rate is 0.5000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.4629. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 8.01 percent. Ochopee Fire Control Fund 146, new fund 1040, the proposed millage rate is 4.0. The rolled-back millage rate is 3.5359. Percent change from the rolled-back rate is 13.13 percent. Goodland/Horrs Island Fire MSTU 149 -- Fund 149, new fund 1041, the proposed millage rate is 1.2760. The rolled-back millage rate is 1.1058. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 15.39 percent. Sabal Road MSTU Fund 151, new fund 1619, the proposed millage rate is 0. The proposed rolled-back rate is 0. The percent change from millage rate is 0. Lely Golf Estates Beautification MSTU Fund 152, new fund 1620, the proposed millage rate is 2.0000. The rolled-back millage rate is 1.7722. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 12.85 percent. Golden Gate Parkway Beautification MSTU Fund 153, new fund 1621, the proposed millage rate is 0.5000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.4502. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 11.06 percent. Hawksridge Stormwater Pumping MSTU Fund 154, new fund September 7, 2023 Page 118 1622, the proposed millage rate is 0.0318. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.0282. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 12.77 percent. Radio Road Beautification MSTU 158, new fund 1625, the proposed millage rate is 0, the rolled-back millage rate is 0, and the percent change from rollback is 0 percent. Forest Lakes Roadway and Drainage MSTU Fund 159, new fund No. 1626, proposed millage rate is 4.0000. The rolled-back millage rate is 3.5076. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 14.04 percent. Immokalee Beautification MSTU Fund 162, new fund 1629, the proposed millage rate is 1.0000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.9613. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 4.03 percent. Bayshore Avalon Beautification MSTU Fund 163, new fund 1630, the proposed millage rate is 2.1104. The rolled-back millage rate is 2.0971. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 0.63 percent. Haldeman Creek Dredging MSTU Fund 164, new fund 1631, the proposed millage rate is 1.0000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.8996. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 11.16 percent. Rock Road MSTU Fund 165 -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Why did you look at me? MR. JOHNSON: -- new fund 1632, the proposed millage rate is 0.8109. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.8109. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 0 percent. Vanderbilt Waterways MSTU Fund 168, new fund 1635, the proposed millage rate is 0.3000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.2719. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 10.33 percent. September 7, 2023 Page 119 Forest Lakes Debt Service Fund 259, new fund 2014, the proposed millage rate is 0. The rolled-back millage rate is 0. The percent change from the millage rate -- from the rolled-back rate, sorry, is 0 percent. Blue Sage MSTU Fund 341, new fund 3080, the proposed millage rate is 3.0000. The rolled-back millage rate is 2.8835. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 4.04 percent. Collier County Lighting Fund 760, new fund 1601, the proposed millage rate is 0.1025. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.1025. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 0 percent. 42nd Avenue Southeast MSTU Fund 761, new fund 1637, the proposed millage rate is 1.0000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.7805. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 28.12 percent. Palm River Sidewalk MSTU Fund 1638, the proposed millage rate is 0.5000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0, as this is a new fund. There's no change from the rolled-back rate. Pelican Bay MSTBU Fund 778, new fund 1008, the proposed millage rate is 0.0857. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.0789. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 8.62 percent. The aggregate rate proposed is 4.4397. The rolled-back aggregate rate is 4.0025. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 10.92 percent. And with that, I'll turn it back over to Mr. Finn. MR. FINN: Very nice job, Chris. Thank you so much. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Mr. Miller, do we have a caller on the line about Rock Road? MR. MILLER: We actually have 17, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Oh, excellent. That's a good answer. Go ahead, Mr. Finn. September 7, 2023 Page 120 MR. FINN: And if I may, sir, we'll move to Item 1E, which is a resolution to adopt the tentative millage rates. A motion to adopt the tentative millage rates for FY '24 as contained within the resolution would be in order at this time. The tentative millage rates can be adopted by a single vote. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'll make the motion for that adoption. MR. FINN: Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I second, but you only need one vote, right? Okay. What's next? We have to do -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Call the vote. MR. FINN: If you would, sir, call the vote. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'm sorry. I thought you said we only need one vote. So I've got a motion from Commissioner McDaniel, second from me. All in favor? COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously. Next? MR. FINN: Thank you, sir. Item 1F, which is a resolution to adopt the amended tentative budget. That's on Tab 1F of your package, budget resolution. Starting on Package Page 60, you find a resolution providing for adoption of the '24 amended tentative budget. Your action on this item will include the changes discussed under agenda Item 1B. The September 7, 2023 Page 121 amended tentative budget can be adopted by a single majority vote. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Do I have a motion? COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Second. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. We've got a motion from me, a second from Commissioner Kowal. All in favor? COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously. MR. FINN: Item 1G, which is announcement of the final public hearing. Final public hearing on the FY '23/'24 Collier County budget will be Thursday, September 21, 2023, at 5:05 p.m., in this building, in this room, Collier County Government Center, W. Harmon Turner Building F, third floor boardroom, Naples, Florida. With that, sir, that's all we have on our agenda this evening. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Let me just go down the line. Anybody got any comments? Commissioner Kowal. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I've just got one simple question. What's with the 5:05? MR. FINN: That's a legacy, sir. I don't know that it's statutorily required, but I'm going to go with it for now. MR. JOHNSON: It is required to be after 5:00. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Oh, okay. Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: There you go. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: If we had started at 5:00, we'd be out of here by now. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders, do you September 7, 2023 Page 122 have any closing comments? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I don't have anything to add. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall. COMMISSIONER HALL: No, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Just one comment. I want to say thank you to all of you. It was brought up tonight by the public that we have a lot of difficult decisions to make, and there are going to be many more that come at us in the next couple of weeks before we ultimately adopt our budget. But when I was going to get an extra cup of water, one of you asked a question with regard to the distinguishment for the actual revenues in comparison to -- or what we collected in comparison to what was on our chart, and one of the things that Ed said was that that had never really come up with a discussion before, and I -- I appreciate the discussion -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- very, very much. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I was just going to close by saying you have five commissioners up here that actually do the math, read the documents. We don't always vote the same way, but I think Commissioner McDaniel said it best where we can talk about what we've signed and the pledges and talking to people -- and those all matter. I'm not dismissing those at all, but in the end, our job is to do what's best for the County and the citizens, and sometimes a lot of things change. You know, you get a couple of hurricanes that slam into our county and things change. And, you know, we just turned the -- you know, I'll end on this note: Today's September 7th. On September 11th in 2001, nobody could have expected airliners to crash into, you know, two skyscrapers in New York City, and the September 7, 2023 Page 123 universe changed. And when that happens, sometimes you've got to make tough decisions that aren't on paper and aren't on charts. And we've got to make sure we set up this County so that, you know, if we have emergencies, we're covered, that we can pay bills, and that the people that replace us in these seats years from now don't have infrastructure that we allowed to crumble and didn't stay up on because, you know, we wanted to get pats on the back. And I know you've got five commissioners up here that we're not serving that way. So I think we had really great discussion. And I would just challenge the staff to take what you are about to bring to them and really sharpen some pencils, and let's come in here on Tuesday and do not just do something different, but really do something better, and I really feel like that's what we're about to do. MR. FINN: Yes, sir. Thank you. ***** September 7, 2023 Page 124 There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 8:57 p.m. BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS CONTROL ________________________________________ RICK LoCASTRO, CHAIRMAN ATTEST CRYSTAL K. KINZEL, CLERK These minutes approved by the Board on ______________________, as presented __________ or as corrected __________. TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF FORT MYERS COURT REPORTING BY TERRI L. LEWIS, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL COURT REPORTER, FPR-C, AND NOTARY PUBLIC.