HEX Minutes 11/09/2023November 9, 2023
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TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE
COLLIER COUNTY HEARING EXAMINER
Naples, Florida
November 9, 2023
LET IT BE REMEMBERED that the Collier County Hearing Examiner, in and for the County of
Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:05 a.m., in REGULAR SESSION
at 2800 North Horseshoe Drive, Room 609/610, Naples, Florida, with the following people present:
HEARING EXAMINER ANDREW DICKMAN
ALSO PRESENT:
Michael Bosi, Planning and Zoning Director
Raymond V. Bellows, Zoning Manager
Nancy Gundlach, Principal Planner
John Kelly, Planner III
Sean Sammon, Planner III
Ailyn Padron, Management Analyst I
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P R O C E E D I N G S
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Good morning. Thanks for your
patience, everyone.
This is the Hearing Examiner meeting of November 9th, 2023.
Please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance.
(The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.)
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Thank you very much.
Some quick preliminaries. My name is Andrew Dickman. I'm a Florida Bar attorney in
good standing for over 20 years. I was retained by the Board of County Commissioners to fulfill
the role of the Hearing Examiner as it's outlined in the code.
I am not a county employee. My job is to be impartial and fair and render a written
decision after these -- this hearing after hearing from the petitioner and from the county and from
the public. And what I'm looking for is relevant information as it pertains to the review criteria for
each application.
So the process that we're going to follow is that the county's going to start. They'll come
up here and introduce the items and give me a little bit of background, go through their analysis,
and also lay out any conditions or recommendations that they may have. Then the applicant, or
the applicant's representative, will use this other podium here and come up and make their case in
chief. I will allow them to reserve some time for rebuttal if they would like it, then we'll open it
up for public comment.
So if anyone here wants to speak, please fill out a speaker card and give it to this young
lady over here.
This is a hybrid meeting, we think. It's worked flawlessly for the whole time I've been
here. So the county has set up that hybrid system where folks can participate virtually who may
not be able to attend here.
I am going to be following a procedure, and I will be conducting these hearings. They're
quasi-judicial hearings. But I also want -- this is a smaller atmosphere. I want
every- -- atmosphere. I want everyone to relax. It's more important to me that you get your
message across to me so that I can hear it and take notes and -- because after today, I can't call
anybody up and do any more evaluation. I have -- this is where the record ends.
So everybody just relax. I see we have a crowd here today. I'm not quite sure which item
it's for, but I'm excited to hear all the information. And, you know, don't get nervous. Just, you
know, speak plainly, and we'll get through this.
Usually -- hopefully at the end of the day, you'll feel like you at least had your opportunity
to say what you have to say. I'm not going to cut you off. I may cut you off, and I may ask a few
questions. If I look down or if I look away, I'm looking at the materials. Don't take offense to it
because I really want to -- I'm looking at all of the things, though I am listening to everybody that's
speaking here.
We have a court reporter who's taking verbatim transcripts of the whole hearing, and so it's
important to speak clearly. Don't over -- don't speak too fast. Don't speak over people. She'll
stop me if things -- if she doesn't understand, because it's really important to have the transcript for
the record as well.
If you have a conversation you want to have with someone you're here with, for some
reason the acoustics are really good and I can hear a lot about what's going on in the audience. So
if you could just step outside and do that, out in the hallway, I'd really appreciate it.
And with that, anyone who is going to speak here today is going to have to be sworn in by
the court reporter. So why don't we do that for all the items. Stand and raise your right hand, and
the court reporter will administer the oath.
THE COURT REPORTER: Do you swear or affirm the testimony you will give will be
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the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
(The speakers were duly sworn and indicated in the affirmative.)
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Excellent. Thank you, everybody.
***All right. So we're going to start with Item 3A, 2020 [sic] Barefoot Beach Boulevard.
Hi, John.
MR. KELLY: Good morning, Mr. Dickman.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: John has his personal microphone.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Good morning, Mr. Dickman. Sorry about that.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: No problem.
MR. KELLY: For the record, John Kelly, Planner III.
This is going to be Agenda Item 3A. It's a boat dock petition, PL20230006177.
The petitioner requests the Hearing Examiner approve a 31-foot boat dock extension from
the maximum permitted protrusion of 20 feet for waterways greater than 100 feet in width to allow
the construction of a boat docking facility protruding a total of 51 feet into a waterway that is 290
plus or minus feet wide pursuant to LDC Section 5.03.06.E.1.
The subject property is located at 220 Barefoot Beach Boulevard, also known as Lot 1,
Bayfront Gardens, in Section 6, Township 48 South, Range 25 East, Collier County, Florida.
The property is located within Tract H, a residential component of the Lely Barefoot Beach
Planned Unit Development. The subject property comprises .26 acres with a 137-foot natural
mangrove shoreline.
The petitioner desires to replace an existing dock that was severely damaged by Hurricane
Ian with an L-shaped dock designed to accommodate a single boatlift for a 30-foot vessel on the
waterward side, due to water depths, and a kayak float on the landward side.
Public notice requirements were as per LDC Section 10.03.06.H. The required property
owner notification letter and newspaper ad were satisfied by the county on October 20, 2023, and a
public hearing sign was posted by me to the front of the property on October 25, 2023.
The petition was reviewed by staff based upon the review criteria contained within LDC
Section 5.03.06.H. Of the primary criteria, it satisfied five of five. Of the secondary criteria, it
satisfied five of six, with the sixth being not applicable, the Manatee Protection Plan.
The petition was -- or the application was found to be consistent with both the Growth
Management Plan and the Land Development Code.
With respect to public comment, one phone call was received in response to public
advertising. The caller was provided with the proposed plans per his request as well as they were
held [sic] to the meeting portal. He was requested to get back in touch with me if he desired to
voice an opinion; however, I have heard nothing further.
It's staff recommendation that the Hearing Examiner approve this petition as described in
accordance with the proposed dock plans provided within Attachment A.
And that concludes staff's presentation.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you, John.
Okay. Is the applicant or the applicant's rep here? Hey, Jeff.
MR. ROGERS: Good morning. Can you hear me? For the record, Jeff Rogers with
Turrell, Hall & Associates here today representing Craig Fenneman, who's -- the property's in a
trust, so him and his wife reside here. It's a seasonal residence for them, as they currently reside
up in Martinsville, Indiana.
As John went through -- I'll just quickly reiterate what he said. We're here today -- I do
have a PowerPoint. But we're here today requesting a boat dock extension of 31 feet beyond the
allowed 20 feet, so an overall protrusion of 51 feet out into the subject waterway.
Go forward, if you would, please.
Here's a couple photos on this slide and the next slide of existing on-site conditions. As
John stated, this whole neighborhood was, you know, devastated during Ian, this property included.
The house has gone under heavy renovations to get it back up. Part of those renovations and
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wishes of the owner is to update the aging dock.
Moving forward.
Here's some more existing conditions. I want to, you know, stress, with this neighborhood
it is unique in regards to the natural mangrove shoreline that is throughout all of Barefoot -- you
know, Barefoot Beach. This particular area of Barefoot Beach does not have the 20-foot
conservation easement along its subject property shoreline; however, it does still have the
mangroves, which are problematic for permitting purposes to impact any additional -- more than
what we currently are. So that was taken into consideration.
Moving forward.
Here's a survey.
Let's jump forward, please.
Here's the existing dock. As you can see, it's kind of buried back into the mangroves.
The mangroves have been allowed to grow outward, like they do naturally, which kind of has
choked off the access to the boatlift. The boatlift there today is the X, the area on the waterside of
the dock with the X. So getting in and out of there is pretty tight, to say the least.
In order to maintain that, which we technically could with the state, we'd have to go
through a heavy permitting process as well as go through some mangrove mitigation which are,
you know, additional fees to offset impacts. So Turrell, myself, when we get a job like this, we
look at every angle and try to figure out what's the best option for the property, you know, nature,
as well as the neighborhood, and the proposed dock that we are here today requesting was one of
the few items that -- or few designs that worked.
Let's move forward, please.
Here's the proposed dock. As you can see, we've tried to maintain the existing walkway
through the mangroves that the dock currently sits in; therefore, we're not impacting any more of
the existing mangroves. We'll probably have to do some lateral trimming, which is allowed, to
maintain access over the boardwalk and do the dock installation per DEP. The county doesn't
really regulate mangroves. They just verify that we have the proper environmental permits with
the Department of Environmental Protection, which we do in this case.
So as you can see here, overall protrusion out into the waterway is 51 feet; 31 feet, again,
past the allowed protrusion mark of 20. Twenty feet is pretty much where the mangrove fringe
and the existing dock ends, give or take a little bit. So we are going further out into the waterway
than what's currently there; however, the dock design is consistent with others on this subject
waterway.
Some of the others are not parallel to the shoreline; they're more perpendicular. And to do
that with our fringe, we would go out even further. So, again, as part of my recommendation to
the client is to minimize our overall request and try to satisfy his needs, and we were able to do that
with this design.
The kayak float is the gray area, the 10 by 20 on the landward side which, you know, the
kayak -- he's comfortable -- he, being the applicant, was comfortable with, you know, just
getting -- maneuvering around the mangroves to get up on that poly float, which is connected to the
dock. That is a floating dock. It's a poly float, meaning it's like a plastic float.
They step off the dock onto that, and they can get on and off their kayaks much easier and
a lot safer than -- especially at a lower tide when dropped from the deck down to the water level
is -- can be significant at times.
So it's a 30-foot vessel.
Quickly running through, you know, the criteria, you know, the primary and secondary. I
won't drag this out any longer, because it looks like we have a busy day here.
You know, primary criteria, whether the facility is -- the proposed facility is consistent
with the zoning, and in this case, it's a single-family residential lot; therefore, we're allowed two
slips. So that criteria is met. Technically proposing one boat slip and one kayak float.
Criteria No. 2 of primary, whether the water depths at the proposed site are so shallow a
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vessel of the general length, type, and draft, as described by the petitioners, can be moored at mean
low tide. That is also met because it is a natural shoreline. It's not a typical seawall shoreline.
There was dredging done way back in the, you know, '50s and '60s when this was developed;
however, the natural shoreline and the mangroves kind of create a little shoal area. So getting out
past that for functionality of the boat lift at all tides was also taken into consideration. So that was
also one of the driving factors of going out.
Primary No. 3, whether the proposed dock facility may adversely impact navigation. As
you saw in previous -- I can go back a slide or two just to show you. There you go; that's perfect.
The waterway is significantly wide here compared to other sections of this water body known as
Little Hickory Bay. So navigation there -- it's not a marked channel here. It's a what we would
call local knowledge channel, but for the most part, everywhere is navigable in between the docks
and the shorelines for people ingressing and egressing this bay.
And as you can see also on this, I just want to point out, a lot of the docks are
perpendicular to the shoreline that are existing versus parallel. So that was just something I
wanted to point out.
Moving on to No. 4 of the primary, whether the proposed dock facility protrudes no more
than 25 percent. On the previous aerial, that is obviously heavy -- that yellow line right there is
the 25 percent width of the waterway. So we are inside of that. That's also part of the state and
federal criteria. If you go beyond that with those agencies, you're most likely not going to get
approval because that's their protrusion mark. There's no variances from them for that further out.
So that is also met.
Number 5, whether the proposed location and the design of the dock facility is such that
the facility would not interfere with the use of neighboring docks. It's pretty clear here that it
wouldn't. Our setbacks from the south, I believe, is 60 feet. So the county requires 15. We're
well beyond that, and the vessel is 30 feet long.
So as I've discussed with you before, industry standards for backing distances is length and
a half. So a 30-foot vessel would need to be about, you know, 45 feet of distance for safe
navigation, and that is also met.
Secondary Criteria, No. 1, whether there are special conditions not involving water depth.
And in this case, I mean, the biggest thing here for us other than water depths was the mangrove
fringe, obviously, as I previously mentioned, so that was the additional special condition and the
fact that the waterway is wide enough to go out without interfering with navigation and the
25 percent also come into play with this. Excuse me.
Number 2 of the secondary, whether the proposed dock facility would allow reasonable,
safe access to the vessel for unloading and loading and routine maintenance, and that is also met.
The walkway, on the previous slides, you know, gave you some dimensions. We don't need to be
back, but we're -- I believe the walkway's 5 foot, and the terminal, which is the L, was roughly
6-foot wide. So there's plenty of room for them to use the dock for access, maintenance, as well as
recreational activities like kayaking and paddleboarding. And, you know, let's face it, some of the
dock's used for storage as well, so there's plenty of room for all that to happen but also been
minimized compared to some of the other docks in the area.
Number 3, for single-family dock facilities, whether the length of the vessel or vessels in
combination described by the petitioner exceeds 50 percent of the subject property's linear water
frontage. In this case, I believe, yeah, the property has 137 linear feet of shoreline so, therefore,
we're proposing a 30-foot vessel. Kayaks were not part of that calculation. It's not a motorized
vessel, so the county doesn't look at those as a vessel, so to speak. So 30 feet is well under the
50 percent threshold as well.
Moving forward, No. 4, whether the proposed facility would allow -- or would have a
major impact on the waterfront view of the neighboring properties. If you've ever driven through
this neighborhood, the houses are extremely tall. The lots are small, so they go vertical, and the
living quarters typically are above FEMA. So they're well above the typical ground-level view, as
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well as we have mangroves on our shoreline that, you know, I would say at least are 15 to 20 feet
tall as well. So, therefore, there should be no new impacts to the subject waterway.
People across the waterway will be able to see the dock extend out a little bit further, but
there should be no impacts. There are no impacts to existing views to the waterway. Plus, it's a
boating community. There's docks everywhere. It's a common accessory use to these properties.
Number 3, whether seagrass beds will be impacted by the proposed dock facility. This is
the one criteria that the county does regulate in regards to environmental; not the mangroves, but
seagrasses. I dove this site twice, and no seagrasses were observed anywhere on this waterway.
The water's a little dark here, too, so sunlight penetration is less, being so far north of Wiggins
Pass. So turnover isn't as great here.
The final one of the secondary is No. 6, which is the Manatee Protection Plan. It's a
single-family; not applicable. We are consistent with less than two slips. So, therefore, there
should be no impacts to manatees either.
Happy to answer any questions. That's it in a nutshell. You know, if you have anything I
can answer.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: No, pretty straightforward.
MR. ROGERS: Okay.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Why don't we see if there's any members of the
public that want to speak.
MS. PADRON: We have no registered speakers.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. No registered speakers.
Anything else from the county?
MR. KELLY: No, sir.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. I'll get a decision out as quickly as
possible.
MR. ROGERS: Thank you.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. Have a good day.
MR. ROGERS: You, too.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: ***All right. Next item, 3B, 1231 15th Street
Southwest.
MR. SAMMON: Good morning, Mr. Dickman.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Good morning.
MR. SAMMON: For the record, Sean Sammon, Planner III in the Zoning division.
Before you is Agenda Item 3B. It's for a variance, Project No. PL20230003394. This is a
request for you to approve a 41.2-foot variance from the Land Development Code, Section
2.03.01.B.1.B.4 to reduce the required minimum 100 feet separation distance from the adjacent
residence to the north to 59.8 feet for an existing permitted accessory shelter for horses for the
benefit of the subject property described as the south 150 feet, Tract 10, Golden Gate Estates, Unit
No. 193, subdivision, which is located at 1231 15th Street -- thank you, Terry -- Southwest in
Section 17, Township 49 South, Range 27 East, Collier County, Florida.
The petition was reviewed by staff based upon review criteria contained within LDC
Section 9.04.03, a through h, and staff believes this petition is consistent with the review criteria in
the LDC as well as with the GMP.
With respect to the public notice requirements, they were complied with as per LDC
Section 10.03.06.F. The agent letter was distributed by the owner on July 2nd, 2023. The
property owner notification letter and newspaper ad were taken care of by the county on Friday,
October 20th, 2023, and the public hearing sign was placed by the owner on Wednesday,
October 25th, 2023.
I received one public comment for opposition pertaining to this petition. The letters and
photos from this opposition were included as Attachments H and K to the staff report.
Therefore, because staff believes this petition is consistent with the LDC and GMP, staff
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recommends that you approve this petition as described in accordance with the attachments to the
staff report, specifically Attachment F, site plan and detail for proposed variance.
That concludes staff's summary.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Great. Thank you very much.
Is the applicant or applicant's representative here?
Hi, good morning.
MS. BREWER: Good morning. My name is Dawn Brewer. I am the daughter of my
parents, Donnie and Rebecca Brewer, the property owners of 1231 15th Street Southwest. We are
here today to request for a 41.2-foot variance of our property. My parents purchased the house in
1990.
A put a little PowerPoint together.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Great.
MS. BREWER: First slide is from 1984, which is a lot of trees. The house was built in
eighty -- right after this aerial. So the next slide shows 1995.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I see.
MS. BREWER: Sorry.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Take your time.
MS. BREWER: So this is 1995. Again, my parents purchased the property in 1990.
You can see here with the highlighted circle there is a barn structure that was there upon
purchasing of the unit.
The main reason we bought the property is we were moving to the Estates to be in the
equine business. It's been a family affair ever since. We've all been involved in horses, showed
throughout the state, 4H, and continue today.
The next slide is a barn -- or a picture of the barn from 1998. Existing structure, same as.
In 2002, the northern property at 1221 was purchased, and a residential unit was placed
there. At no time was there any notification of an issue of setback for them, the property line, such
forth.
In 2004, we did receive a code complaint that -- from Collier County, not any of the
residential neighbors, that the last barn -- or the last stall was in the property line setback. So it
was architect engineered and permitted and CO'ed in 2004. Again, no issue of 100-foot setback
was raised for the northern property.
So this is a current photo of the barn facing the back of the property, and -- next
photo -- this is the northern side of our property. You can see where the barn stops. The barn
stall is 37-point -- 37.3 feet from the property line.
We have put up an 8-foot privacy fence on the northern side of our property to try to help
with that distance of complaint.
So, again, our request today is -- structure's been there for over 30 years, survived many
hurricanes. Never had an issue. Again, it houses our horses, and we ask that you let us keep it.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So it's basically legalizing what's already
there?
MS. BREWER: Correct.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Okay.
MS. BREWER: And this picture's -- sorry. This picture is the back view, from the back
of the property to the front. Of course, I had to include Chico in there. But, again, it kind of
shows the distance where we were over 37 feet from the property line with the structure.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. Anything else?
MS. BREWER: I don't think so.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. So is this a current matter in Code
Enforcement? Is it currently pending in Code Enforcement?
MS. BREWER: It is.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So it's been stayed until the outcome of this --
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MS. BREWER: Correct.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- proceedings?
Okay. Gotcha.
Why don't we see if there's any public speakers.
Thank you for your presentation.
MS. BREWER: Thanks.
MS. PADRON: We do have a public speaker. Her name is Joselin Banegas.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay, great. Online or present?
MS. PADRON: Through Zoom.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Zoom, virtual. Okay.
MS. PADRON: Joselin, can you hear us? Joselin, can you hear us?
(No response.)
MS. PADRON: I am checking with her to see if she can hear us.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yep. Is it Joselin Banegas?
MS. PADRON: Banegas, correct.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: There is an objection letter here in the record. In
the event that she doesn't come on, I have -- have you seen the letters?
MS. BREWER: I have.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: You have seen the letters.
MS. BREWER: And I also have new material. The neighbor directly behind us has
given me a letter of his no objection.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay.
MS. BREWER: I've also talked to the neighbor to the south side, the Montgomerys. I
don't have a letter with me at the moment, but they have put a character reference letter in our file.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I saw that.
MS. BREWER: They have no objection. The neighbors across the street, as soon as we
posted our sign on October 25th, all were inquisitive of what was happening and have basically
called and reached out to either myself or my parents to say what can we do to help you? Like, we
don't oppose this. Again, we've all --
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So you have one letter with you to
supply --
MS. BREWER: I do.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- an additional support letter?
MS. BREWER: Correct.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Why don't you provide that to the county, and then
they can provide that to me. But after this hearing, I can't accept any additional information.
MS. BREWER: Okay.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: But thank you for bringing that in.
Any luck with Joselin?
MS. PADRON: She's not responding.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: No? Okay. All right. Well, that's the risk
that -- unfortunately, you know, the county does the best they can. Not a lot of local communities
will attempt these hybrid meetings. So sometimes there are some IT issues on one end or the
other -- I don't know where it is -- but we can't hold up the process for that.
But I do -- we do have the letter. It's out -- it's a pretty detailed letter, so I will take that
under consideration. And I'll take that letter that you have with you. And is there any -- no other
speakers?
MS. PADRON: We do not have additional speakers.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. And any final words you want to -- is that
it? You did a good job. You don't have to say anything.
MS. BREWER: Yep. A little nervous, sorry, but, yeah, just -- again, just to reiterate that,
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you know, we've been here since the '90s with the horses and the structure, and --
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I understand.
MS. BREWER: -- I have no explanation prior to us purchasing the property, but it has
been there. And, again, we've had no issues until 2018 when Joselin -- Ms. Banegas has --
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And is that the north neighbor?
MS. BREWER: It is.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. When did the north neighbor move in?
MS. BREWER: 2018.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: 2018.
MS. BREWER: We've had several neighbors since then and, again, no issues.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. This is a frequent thing that we see in the
Estates, large lots, and then -- I think yours is 150 by 660 or something.
MS. BREWER: Yes.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Some of them are five acres. And, you know, at
one time, everybody was really isolated and separated and far apart, but then as people are moving
in and buying up land, and, you know, things get uncovered and -- we even had a case where
somebody built the house on the wrong lot. Everything looks like woods out there at one point.
MS. BREWER: Yeah. And I guess that's, like, the biggest thing is when the house was
built in 2002 and we were permitted in 2004, you know, we went through our due diligence then.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah.
MS. BREWER: And now we're having to go through it again, so...
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: We understand.
MS. BREWER: We're just definitely asking for the variance to be approved.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Completely understand. Okay.
With nothing else from the county or anybody else, I will take everything into
consideration and -- is my microphone off? These batteries -- I swear. They're not Energizer
bunnies.
But thank you. Great presentation. Thank you for those who submitted letters.
Joselin, if you're listening, I have your letter. I'll read it. I'll take it into consideration.
And I'll get a decision out as quickly as I can.
MS. BREWER: Thank you.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you.
MS. BREWER: Appreciate your time.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you very much.
All right. That was 3A and 3B.
***We're going to 3C. 3C is 68th Street Southwest.
MS. GUNDLACH: Good morning, Mr. Hearing Examiner.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It's good to see you.
MS. GUNDLACH: Good to see you as well.
This morning we're here to present to you a nonconforming use change.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
MS. GUNDLACH: It's related to the Naples Christian Academy.
Do I need to state my name and title for the record? Okay. Nancy Gundlach, principal
planner with the Zoning division.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Do you have a problem with that?
MS. GUNDLACH: And as I said, this is a nonconforming use change for the Naples
Christian Academy, and the petition number is PL202300673 -- 674.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yep.
MS. GUNDLACH: And the site is located on the south side of Golden Gate Parkway. It
is the former site of several different fitness centers. It's at the corner of 68th Street Southwest,
roughly a half mile west of the Golden Gate/I-75 interchange. And staff evaluated this petition
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against all the criteria outlined in the Land Development Code, and it is consistent with all that
criteria.
And we are recommending approval subject to seven conditions of approval, and I will
read those into the record.
The first one is that the K-8 private school shall be limited to a maximum of 225 students,
and the square footage of the principal and accessory structures shall not exceed the existing
28,000 square feet.
Weekday and weekend hours are limited to 7 a.m. to 5 p.m. with occasional school
functions permitted after hours.
No outdoor amplified sound shall be permitted unless permitted under a temporary-use
permit for a special event.
Number 4, leasing of the school facility to outside groups or use by other groups is
prohibited. The school facility is permitted to allow for accessory uses to the approved school use
which includes community meetings, civic associations, youth meetings, guest speakers,
neighborhood meetings, and Boy and Girl Scouts.
Condition of Approval No. 5, for events of significant traffic generation, as determined by
Collier County staff -- the school shall provide traffic control by law enforcement or a law
enforcement approved service provider as directed by Collier County staff -- with staffing at the
locations as directed by Collier County Transportation Engineering division director or designee.
Condition of Approval No. 6, the northern project egress access point as shown on the site
plan will be closed off with traffic cones during student drop-off, which is 7:30 a.m. to 8:30 a.m.,
and pick up, which is between 2:30 p.m. and 3:30 p.m. And we've also included a stacking exhibit
that shows -- that shows that.
And then the staff condition of approval, there shall be no -- that's No. 7, no traffic queuing
or impacts on any existing through lanes on adjacent roadways, including Golden Gate Parkway
and 68th Street Southwest. The drop-off and pickup traffic will be accommodated on site through
on-site stacking and site circulation. Traffic circulation and stacking will be addressed in an SDP
or SDPI in accordance with the requirements of LDC Section 5.05.14 for public schools.
And that concludes my presentation.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you, Nancy.
So a couple questions. Here's what I've learned about schools over the years. Frequently,
you know, because the pickup is at a -- you know, school lets out, students get picked up, and
frequently those being picked up try to find some other place to queue or park so they can get in
and out fast without having to go through all of this rigmarole. And so I know that that's always
an issue, and I appreciate you putting a condition in here about that, because that's always -- I
always see that with schools, like even students who drive -- and I don't know if these students
drive or not. These are --
MS. GUNDLACH: They don't.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thankfully they don't, right? I think you have to
be 16 or 17 to get a license these days. I don't know.
But that's always an issue. You know, a parent or somebody will say, meet me out on so
and so, and I'll meet you there, and that way I can get in and out real fast. It always happens.
Every school there's somebody trying to get out of having to go through this process.
The other thing is, you know, the number -- the cap on the students, you know, is that an
absolute cap? So, like, if they were to invite other schools to come over and participate and things
like that or -- because I've noticed that that sometimes becomes an issue if they have an affiliation
with another school and then some classes are taught here but they're not taught there, and then that
number isn't calculated. So is that an absolute number? I think you listed it at, what is it, two --
MS. GUNDLACH: Two twenty-five.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Two twenty-five. That's the maximum number --
MS. GUNDLACH: Yes, it is.
November 9, 2023
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HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- that's allowed there at one time, right?
MS. GUNDLACH: Yes.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right.
And then any outdoor lighting that I need to know about, like with the outdoor pool and the
basketball courts and things like that?
MS. GUNDLACH: It will be as it currently exists.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Currently exists?
MS. GUNDLACH: Yeah.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Great job. Thank you very much.
MS. GUNDLACH: You're welcome.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Who do we have representing the
applicant? Mr. Arnold, how are you today?
MR. ARNOLD: Good morning.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It's nice to see you.
MR. ARNOLD: You, too. My name is Wayne Arnold. I'm a certified planner with
Grady Minor & Associates. I have a PowerPoint presentation that I think staff's pulling up for us.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I recognize Mr. Arnold. He's an expert, for the
record.
MR. ARNOLD: Thank you.
So as Nancy mentioned, the project -- if we can maybe go forward to the project team. I'll
just mention to you Rich Yovanovich is our legal counsel. We're here representing the Naples
Christian Academy and also through Covenant Presbyterian Church, who is the sponsor for NCA.
NCA's currently utilizing, on a temporary basis, parts of the Covenant Presbyterian Church
property, and they're helping assist with purchase and development of this site for the Naples
Christian Academy.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Are the conditions -- do you have any issues with
some of the conditions? Are you going to address that?
MR. ARNOLD: I'll address that.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay.
MR. ARNOLD: I think we had one minor change that we had proposed, and Nancy didn't
carry that forward. And I don't know if she's in disagreement or it was just a --
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: We'll get to that.
MR. ARNOLD: Yeah. So if you could go back to the exhibit. So, Mr. Dickman, you've
been in town a long time, and I've been here since about 1989. And when I got here, this building
and that property was utilized for a flea market. Shortly thereafter, and as Nancy indicated in the
staff report, there have been several approvals of nonconforming use changes over the years to
convert this into multiple things.
If you could click forward, please.
So this highlights the various resolutions that have been approved, lastly the 2002
resolution that approved the fitness facility. And it's been several different fitness facilities, one of
which just recently vacated the premises, which opened the opportunity for Naples Christian
Academy to locate at this location.
I would point out that in 1977, a school was permitted through the same nonconforming
use change on this site. It was going to be a charter school, and it was since abandoned. But,
obviously, that came through the same process.
And, again, as Nancy mentioned, this is proposed to be a K-8 school, so there's no parking
associated with the student body. So it's really the faculty that's parking in the parking lot and
then, as you mentioned, the queuing for stacking.
We've created an exhibit, and I hope you don't adopt the exhibit if you recommend
approval. I like the condition, and we're happy with the conditions, but I think we'd like to make
sure that the circulation works on site for pickup and drop-off. It's really the afternoon pickup
November 9, 2023
Page 12 of 31
that's typically the one where people stage and come at the same time to get in the queue. The
morning drop-off's not so problematic.
Our office happens to be adjacent to a private school, and I can -- I can monitor that. And
we did the conditional-use approval for them, and it's clearly in the afternoon is where the parents
stage and stack. And they double stack them, and they release students, and it's all monitored and
handled by staff. And I'm sure you've seen that at other schools as you've traveled around town.
If you could go forward, please.
So this was -- I just put this in just for your benefit that this was the prior approval for the
charter school. They were doing some different access changes but reflecting a lot of other
accessory uses on the site that were not specific to where they are today.
If you could forward again, please.
So this was the actual site plan that was approved for the fitness facility. And, obviously,
Golden Gate Parkway is located here, 68th is here, and this is the principal building. They added
the pool in this location and outdoor basketball court.
This one also highlights the fact that there is an offsite water management tract that's not
part of the nonconforming use change. It will remain as a drainage easement for the benefit of the
property.
Next slide, please.
So this is the current plan. You can see that -- and this goes to the condition that I wanted
to talk about. Nancy's proposed condition limits us to the 28,000. We had recommended the
28,000 square feet but potentially to have up to 2,000 square feet for accessory structures, an
opportunity to potentially cover a portion of the pool or cover a portion of the basketball court, and
we thought that 2,000 square feet would have been adequate for that.
So I didn't know if Nancy objected to that or it just didn't get carried forward, because we
modified that condition along the way.
MS. GUNDLACH: Yes. I realized as I was reading the list that that is part of the
conditions, the 2,000-square-foot accessories. It's in one list, and I failed to bring it over in the
next list.
MR. ARNOLD: It's in the staff report under applicant's proposed conditions, and I think
that was the only issue we had. And if staff feels very strongly about that, then we'll back off from
that, but we would urge a recommendation to support up to 2,000 square feet of accessory structure
uses.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: So that's No. 1?
MS. GUNDLACH: Yeah.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: Under No. 1, you have a sentence that says, detached
accessory structures shall be limited to 2,000 square feet.
MS. GUNDLACH: Yes. Yes. It's on Page 6, and when the list got carried over to
Page 7, it's not on Page 7, but it is -- but it is -- we do accept it.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And so that -- is that enough?
MR. ARNOLD: Yes, we think it's adequate.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So the whole point is summertime, it gets
pretty hot, and basketball -- I guess you would cover -- in some way cover --
MR. ARNOLD: Potentially. And we don't know that we will, but we wanted that ability
once the school -- hopefully, they're there and, for function, they may need to put some accessory
structure there.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So does that meet your -- this condition says 2,000
square feet?
MR. ARNOLD: Yes.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: You're fine with that?
MR. ARNOLD: We are.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Good, okay.
November 9, 2023
Page 13 of 31
MR. ARNOLD: Next slide, please.
So this is a conceptual image of the change. So the outside of the structure is not being
enlarged. The 28,000 square feet remains, but you can see, obviously, the Parkway's down here,
the swimming pool that's existing, this is an existing outdoor court, central corridor for entry, and
then you have different classroom spaces that are going to be created for the students. So we just
thought it was helpful to you to see that all of these proposed modifications are interior to the
building itself.
As Nancy mentioned, there are five criteria for approval of these nonconforming use
changes. I think you heard one for the El Shaddai that was just -- the old bingo hall, which was
similar to this.
But we had Jim Banks go through and do a traffic analysis and concluded that with the
private school, the p.m. peak hour, which is what the county utilizes for the measurement of
intensity, the p.m. peak hour actually is less than the proposed fitness facility. The hours of
operation, the fitness facility had long evening hours at times and also weekend hours. The
school, obviously, you've seen in the condition that we've limited the hours of operation to
essentially 7 to 5 p.m. with maybe an occasional evening activity for the school, but nothing of
substance for that.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So that would be a -- so on No. 3, special events,
those go through a permitting process that would require disclosure of any -- anything special you
want to do?
MR. ARNOLD: Yes. For a larger event, if they wanted to host some sort of festival or
something, they would go through that process. I was thinking more in the sense if they had an
award ceremony for schools, it may occur on an evening, but I don't believe that qualifies for a
temporary permit.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay.
MR. ARNOLD: So we've demonstrated -- the county has a stacking formula, for instance,
for schools, and we've demonstrated through Mr. Banks' input that we can stack the cars necessary
for up to 225 students on our site. It may require some circuitous flow through the parking lot, but
that will all be controlled by staff and cones, et cetera, as they are at most other schools.
And I think one of the other criteria that has been there, it's the use. And I go back to a
school was previously approved. We have a fitness facility that was approved. You've had many
other uses. And, in fact, the reason I like the school use is because in the Estates, if this were a
public school, we wouldn't be here. It would be permitted by right.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah.
MR. ARNOLD: And I think that with this we have an opportunity to work with staff, the
neighbors, yourself, to come up with conditions of approval to make sure that it operates in a good,
safe manner as a good neighbor to the community.
So that's the conclusion of our presentation. We hope you can support the
recommendation. Happy to answer questions. Our team's here to answer questions if you have
them.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. I mean -- I mean, it's interesting, this site.
You showed the list of different things that have been there, and I really wish something would
take and stay and stick. It's a -- it's a nice site. It's got a huge amount of parking, probably more
than you need.
MR. ARNOLD: It has far more parking than we need for the school.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Yeah. That's what I thought. But, you
know, schools are tricky; that's the only thing. Schools -- they're a good thing because you want
your children to be educated in your community, but they are tricky with lights, noise, you know,
other events, surrounding neighbors. You know, you just don't want to impact the surrounding
neighbors.
MR. ARNOLD: Absolutely.
November 9, 2023
Page 14 of 31
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I mean -- but there are -- you know, I'd really -- I
mean, you just don't want to see a site lay fallow and not be used and become unusable, and there
are probably other uses that would go in here that might be more difficult to control any effects,
outside effects.
So do you want to reserve some time for --
MR. ARNOLD: Sure, absolutely.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- for answering any questions? I'm going to open
it up for the public. I assume --
MR. ARNOLD: There's some public here to speak so, yes, we'd like to -- like the chance
to respond.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: They're here. I didn't notice anybody leaving
during the other ones, so I guess -- they're not here to hear me talk, that's for sure.
MR. ARNOLD: Okay.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Why don't we open it up for public comment.
MR. ARNOLD: Thank you.
MS. PADRON: We have a total of eight in-person speakers. Our first speaker is Kerrie
Delgado.
MS. DELGADO: My name's Kerrie Delgado. We've lived on 68th Street since 1989. I
submitted the Collier County accident report. It was for 21 months.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Ms. Delgado, can you give me your address,
please?
MS. DELGADO: Oh, 2822 68th Street. I live on the north side of the Parkway.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Thank you.
MS. DELGADO: Since the report was run, those 21 months -- it's 226 accidents. I don't
know if that's relevant or not. That averages out to about 10 a month. And I've been monitoring
in the last month through PulsePoint and the Sheriff's Department, and I have counted an additional
nine accidents which is pretty, you know, in keeping with the average amount of accidents.
My question is, mostly, adding an additional 225 cars to the traffic we already have, which
I think everyone here agrees is pretty crazy heading west in the morning and east in the afternoon.
I don't know how many staff vehicles will be involved as well, because I think that is a big
consideration.
And my big problem is the pickup for the students that have to cross the Parkway in the
afternoon and how are you going to handle those parents coming from eastbound trying to cross the
parking lot that Golden Gate Parkway is of the people trying to access 75 and going east.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay.
MS. DELGADO: That's -- it's -- we can't get across the street as it is. I don't know how
they're going to.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. So the way that I like to do this -- I take notes,
and I can -- I ask the applicant to also take notes, and he -- Mr. Arnold's doing that. And so, you
know, I ask you to just put whatever -- if you have questions, you know, we'll write them down,
and I'll ask Mr. Arnold to address those, or I'll address them, or --
MS. DELGADO: Sure.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Or their attorney will address -- somebody will
address them. I just want to try to get a --
MS. DELGADO: No, I understand.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- list of it.
MS. DELGADO: But that's where I see the problem. I can't see how they're -- unless
they're going to have monitors stopping that traffic going into the -- across those three lanes.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Thanks for being here.
MS. DELGADO: Okay. All right. Thank you.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Have a great day.
November 9, 2023
Page 15 of 31
Who's next?
MS. PADRON: Our next speaker is Frank Delgado.
MR. DELGADO: I'm Frank Delgado. This is my wife.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Are you related to Kerrie?
MR. DELGADO: Yes.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, okay. Same address?
MR. DELGADO: Same address, yes; as of today.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Forever.
MR. DELGADO: So I heard there was a traffic study, which was one of the items I
wanted to ask about. And I'm not quite sure how I find that they conclude that there wouldn't be
much impact on 200-plus vehicles coming into the area at the peak hours of traffic flow from 75.
At present, if you try to come to this area -- and I'm only really talking about the west side of 75 to
Livingston, traffic is backed up, typically, all the way to, essentially, the Moorings Grande Lake
park entry. As you come over the flyover on Airport, you are already running into fixed traffic at
that light.
So saying that that's really not going to be that impactful, I find it hard to believe and,
secondarily, I do feel the same, that the traffic trying to cross on the Parkway coming from other
directions is going to be very difficult to manage, and the turn lanes are not excessively large there
to handle a large pile-up of traffic, which is going to start to impact the other traffic flow.
You know, this whole area here between the streets have undergone -- or been subject to a
lot of improvements over the years. Airport flyover has added additional traffic. We've had
Livingston Road extension come through, which is now also added traffic and, ultimately, we have
the 105 exchange there which has created a huge flow of traffic for the -- we'll call it mostly blue-
collar workers coming into the industrial area off Airport in the mornings and then exiting at the
end of the evening, and with the flyover being available, that even encourages more and more of
the traffic to flow that direction because of the time savings that allows.
So those -- those are our biggest concerns. And when the 105 exit was put in, the exit and
incoming traffic pattern for our street grouped on that side, and not to mention the impacts on the
other side, was dramatically changed. We had -- two of our streets have very limited directional
flow out of their streets. Some streets were cut off entirely. 68th and 66th are the only two that
actually can pass through.
And I have sort of underlying concerns that when this kind of additional traffic gets piled
into this, that somebody's going to look to resolve this by creating a barricade so that nobody can
leave in both directions along this stretch for safety reasons, general public, I don't know, whatever
you want to throw the term on it. I do think that it would be the next logical step somebody would
be taking in further limiting our assess in the area.
So those are kind of the key points I wanted to make.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you very much for being here.
Who do we have next?
MS. PADRON: Our next speaker is Pat Metcalf.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: Good morning.
MS. METCALF: Good morning. My name's Pat Metcalf. I live on 2860 66th Street
Southwest. I've been there for 37 years.
As you probably already know, leaving my street or coming into my street, there is only
one way. It's a dead-end street.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yep.
MS. METCALF: When I was working last year and had to leave my house at 7 o'clock in
the morning, I had to wait for the light at Livingston to turn red and all the traffic all the way back
to the bridge to be backed up and hopefully some kind soul would let me out; otherwise, I'd be
there for 10, 15 minutes trying to get out of my street with no other option for getting out of my
street.
November 9, 2023
Page 16 of 31
I do have a couple questions. I reiterate everything the Delgados said about traffic, so I
won't go into that --
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay.
MS. METCALF: -- but I do have a question about the actual site. I'm an educator of 37
years, and I'm wondering where their PE fields are going to be. That doesn't seem to be on the
plan. Also, the best laid plans of mice and men, the pickup, being an educator in school sites for
many, many years, no matter how organized it is planned to be, there's a human element of parents
trying to pick up their kids and circumvent that process because they're in a rush.
So my concern for traffic -- and I won't go back into everything the Delgados stated.
Also, children's safety in that area, and the number of accidents is very concerning there. People
trying to turn -- I can go east or west. If I have to go west at 7 in the -- east at 7 in the morning, I
go all the way to Livingston, go down south on Livingston till I can turn around and come back the
other way, because I absolutely can't cross over, and you're going to add another 200 and
something cars to that westbound traffic.
And I would speak about the volume of cars. You're comparing the number of people that
went to the gym versus the number of people that are going into the school. I was a member of
that gym. There were not 225 people in that gym at any one time. As a matter of fact, in the
parking lot, any time I'd go, 40 cars maybe. So I don't think that's a valid comparison as far as
traffic goes.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you.
MS. METCALF: You're welcome.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you for being here.
Who do we have next?
MS. PADRON: Our next speaker is Jessica Lebrun.
MS. LEBRUN: Hello.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Hello.
MS. LEBRUN: I had to write mine. I'm not a good speaker like they are.
So my name is Jessica Lebrun. My husband and I have lived on 68th Street Southwest for
10 years. We're at 3130 68th Street Southwest. You can actually see our house from the parking
lot of the current gym property. You saw our house on one of the slides, actually. So we're very
close to the gym and very familiar with how it has been for the past decade, and the issues that this
would cause.
So I would like to add we have three children, 10, 8, and 4, so I am in and out of the street
at all hours of the day, multiple times a day. Mainly the two most important times are when we go
to school in the morning -- my children go to Lake Park and Methodist Day School
downtown -- and when we come home in the afternoon, and then we're back out for activities.
So as a resident who travels in and out of our street multiple times per day, I have major
concerns with the idea of a school taking over the existing gym property. As other people have
mentioned, I'm going to reiterate, we already have extreme traffic issues, especially in the morning
when we're taking our kids to school and the late afternoons when we're picking them up and
coming to and from after-school activities.
In the morning, it's literally such a dangerous situation already. I think someone
mentioned they're kind of at the mercy of someone letting them out. This is my life every day
with three kids in the car trying to leave my street and just hoping that someone will stop and let
me into three lanes of backed up traffic with people coming off 75 and coming from Golden Gate
trying to get to work and get their kids to school. It's an insane situation as it is.
So -- I said, it's extremely difficult and oftentimes dangerous for us to get out of our street
or onto our street during those times of day.
So as you can imagine, this gets worse during season, and I've seen it gradually get worse
over the past 10 years that we've lived on this street. It's to the point where after school, when I
pick up my kids at school -- and they almost always have some sort of sport or activity within two
November 9, 2023
Page 17 of 31
or three hours after school -- I will find something else to do, or we will go somewhere else and
sit --
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Instead of going home.
MS. LEBRUN: -- because if I come home, I can't get back out.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I understand.
MS. LEBRUN: So we, literally, are like, held hostage somewhere else because we can't
come back to our home because the traffic is so bad that we either won't get back to our house or,
once we do, we won't get back out.
And then -- it's from two different directions. In the morning, it's all the traffic coming
from 75 and Golden Gate going towards Livingston that makes it impossible to cross over, and in
the afternoon it's everyone going the other direction. And if I were to try to leave my street, I can't
go left.
So keep in mind we're a dead-end street, and when you add the massive amount of traffic
that this school could bring all condensed into the same time of day that we already have traffic
issues, it could result in our residents literally being trapped on our driveways from car line, which
I'm experienced in because I sit in one every single day, and I know the logistics of that.
And, additionally, this not only affects the residents of our area and our daily lives, but all
of the community members traveling from other parts of the area off 75 and from Golden Gate
trying to get into Naples and back to their homes in the afternoon.
So up until the property was vacated, it was also a gym. And, as mentioned, that did cause
additional traffic, but I think that was mentioned by someone else, too -- it was very spread out
throughout the day; it wasn't condensed to these times of day where the school would be condensed
to. It was very spread out. It was almost not noticeable. There was hardly ever anyone there,
which is probably why they couldn't stay open.
So I would like to add, in fairness, that I'm not opposed to the idea of a school itself. As a
mom of three kids, I don't -- I'm not opposed to the idea of having the traffic of the people of a
school coming to and from. I'm not explaining this correctly, but as opposed to random strangers
from a gym to have people for a Christian school coming to and from the street sounds better in
theory, but I just don't see how it could work logistically. So I'm not opposed to the idea of a
school. I'm opposed to the fact that, in this particular spot with all of our existing issues, it just
won't work.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. I sympathize with you. I've been by Lake
Park Elementary when school pickup is happening or drop-off, and I avoid it --
MS. LEBRUN: Yeah.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- because I --
MS. LEBRUN: Most people do, but we can't avoid this area and the already amount of
traffic.
So I just wanted to add that -- a couple final notes. I know that it was mentioned that this
property was previously approved to be a charter school in 1997, but that was before the 75 exits
were added there, so that changes everything. So that really isn't an argument, that it was
previously approved. And while it was made -- while the point was made that the hours of
operation are limited as to -- opposed to the gym that had weekend and evening hours, as I said,
there was hardly ever anyone there at the gym, and it was very much more spread out.
So that is actually an argument in the other direction because the spread-out hours of the
gym didn't add to our already existing issues, whereas the exact times that the school would be
limited to are the issue. The time when people would be coming to and from the school creates
the issue. That's it.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Got it. I totally understand. Nice job.
MS. LEBRUN: Thank you.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Really good job. Thank you.
Yeah, normally we try to keep everything to -- just try to keep everything to five minutes,
November 9, 2023
Page 18 of 31
and I think we're going to -- we'll just do a soft signal if somebody's getting over five minutes
and -- but I do want to hear the testimony. But if someone goes way past it, let's -- I'll just say
"wrap it up," okay.
All right. Who's next?
MS. PADRON: Our next speaker is David Shoham.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: David.
MR. SHOHAM: Hey. How's everybody doing?
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Good morning.
MR. SHOHAM: My name's David Shoham. I'm a resident at 3203 68th Street on the
same street as the project's going to be.
My main concern is safety at Golden Gate and 68th, especially. We already have -- as
you've heard it, we already have a lot of problems as-is. Getting out -- you know, turning
left -- because, again, I'm on the same street. So turning left at certain times of the day is -- I can't
even explain to you how many close calls I've had by getting into accidents.
We've actually requested a light there before, and we got denied from -- I forget -- my wife
actually is the one that submitted it. But we actually got denied because of concerns of additional
traffic, so I don't see how this project really makes sense for that.
But on top of that, I wanted to bring up, yeah, I mean, having the gym -- the gyms there
was difficult because it did bring on additional traffic that made things much more difficult, again,
to exit, but we also had a lot of speeders and, actually, the -- like, maybe younger adults doing
burnouts and doughnuts at the end of the cul-de-sac where -- I mean, it's basically gotten
confrontational. And I even spoke to the police about it, and they didn't really have any kind of
solution. But it made the street unsafe for my child. And, again, that's my main concern; it's just
the safety of the children, and it's just concerning. And I just wanted to come here today and
definitely talk about that.
Now, if this -- if this project gets approved, you know, I would like to have my demands
and -- you know, we need a streetlight on 68th. There's really no way around it. And, yes, that
will cause additional traffic because of the freeway. So I don't know how we can make it work
but, I mean, obviously -- you know, you guys are professionals, but, you know, please come up
with solutions, and, you know, we're open to hear it.
I would love to have a private gate on the street to minimize people randomly driving up
and down our street and making our street unsafe. I believe -- yeah, I would love to have a private
gate for the street. I would love to have a soundproof fence on the south side of the parking lot.
And another thing was, you know, just kind of basic is just they would need to maintain
landscaping and secured parking, because we have campers there. People have been randomly
there camping, sleeping, doing whatever they can without any real patrol. But to me, right now,
this is, you know, my demands if this was to get passed. But, again, the main thing is traffic and
just -- we really don't understand how it could work, so that's it.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. Nice job.
MR. SHOHAM: Thank you.
MS. PADRON: Our next speaker is -- our next speaker is Zara Shoham.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Good morning.
MS. SHOHAM: Good morning. Thank you. My name is Zara Shoham. I am also at
3203 68th Street Southwest.
And I just -- I want to thank my neighbors that have already spoken, as well as my
husband, because -- I just want to reiterate everything that they said. As a homeowner/resident
and especially as a mother, I am extremely concerned about more congestion in an already
congested area.
I do see some of our neighbors didn't make it, but there are a lot of children on our street
that go to various schools around town and, you know, they would be going in and out at the exact
same time that we are currently, and I can't imagine another 225 students coming to our street
November 9, 2023
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every morning and afternoon at approximately the exact same time.
My kids go -- my kid goes to the same school as Jessica's kids. So, I mean, she was pretty
much speaking for exactly what I'm thinking.
I'm laughing because I do stay out, and I find other things to do so I don't have to come
home and make that left turn again. It's not a joke, but I pray every morning that when I make that
left turn that I don't get in an accident with my young child, and he could testify to that as well.
Like my husband said, if it is approved, we definitely need a traffic light. And I know
there's concerns about that as well. I emailed -- it was Traffic Ops, I think that's what they're
called -- several times. I've spoken to them on the phone ever since I moved into the
neighborhood, and we have gotten denied. So I think if this does happen, we definitely need a
traffic light, and a gate. Again, everything that my husband said, Jessica said, and our neighbors
said, I completely agree with. I think the main concern is safety for children and traffic in an
already congested area.
Thank you so much for your consideration.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you for taking the time and being here. I
appreciate it.
Anybody else?
MS. PADRON: We have no additional speakers at this time.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay.
MS. WALKER: I sent in a form.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOICE: She gave a form.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. Does anybody else want to
speak, please -- everyone will have a chance. We'll get to you.
MS. WALKER: I stood over there and signed it, and then I came over there and talked to
you.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Why don't you just come on -- just come on up and
announce your name and address on the record. Anybody else in the audience going to speak
from members of the public? You're fine. You're fine. Everybody's good. Relax.
MS. WALKER: My name is Cindy Walker. I'm on 3160 70th Street Southwest, so I
have a different perspective of traffic.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: What was your name?
MS. WALKER: Cindy Walker.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: Cindy Walker.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Here's her sheet.
MS. WALKER: Okay.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And it was 37 --
MS. WALKER: 3160.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: 3160, okay. Thank you.
MS. WALKER: Okay. So when they put the interchange in, they closed off our access
to getting on and going west on Golden Gate Parkway. So when we pull out of our street, 70th
Street Southwest, we have to go right and then make a U-turn at 68th Street. In the mornings, the
traffic is backed up from the light all the way to the Golden Gate Parkway 75 interchange. And
this morning, I actually had to go to Publix. But, anyway, the traffic was already backed up pretty
much to Santa Barbara, so that's how much traffic is on Golden Gate Parkway in the mornings.
It is very hard to make a U-turn between 7 and 9 -- well, it really kind of starts at 6 in the
mornings. That traffic does not let you make a U-turn, kind of, safely. So I don't know
if -- whoever is deciding this, if you would take the opportunity to get on Golden Gate Parkway
and drive that and then be on 68th Street, 70th Street to try to make the U-turn, that's all we're
asking is people to look at this. I mean, whoever is recommending this to go forward, I implore
them to go and try to -- try to do the traffic.
The other thing is, there are three school buses from the public schools that stop at each of
November 9, 2023
Page 20 of 31
those streets in the mornings.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: On Golden Gate?
MS. WALKER: On Golden Gate.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: Or do they go into the street?
MS. WALKER: They make the whole route around. There's Gulf View Middle School,
Naples High School, and Poinciana, and those start at, like, 6:00 in the morning, till almost 8:00,
8:30 in the morning.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay.
MS. WALKER: So those are stopping, too.
There's the garbage truck that comes around 7 that goes to each of these streets. So that's
what I'm asking is just whoever's going to make this decision, please just get in the traffic and see if
you want to deal with that every morning with another 150, 200 cars trying to get into the school,
and you've got your parents that are running late that are going to try to get their kids there. It's
just more accidents that we really don't want to see.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I understand. Thank you for being here.
MS. WALKER: Thank you.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. Anybody else?
MS. WALKER: Oh, and I sent in a picture, too. I don't know where my picture is.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
MS. GUNDLACH: We received it. It's in the packet.
MS. WALKER: So you're not going to show it on here?
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Do you have it on your computer?
MS. GUNDLACH: I have it right here if you want to put it on the visualizer.
MS. WALKER: Okay. Well, it's just showing the traffic.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah. We don't have a visualizer.
MS. WALKER: One morning, you know, going down the street, I took a picture, and it's
just nothing but cars.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: Staff will provide it to me. It's in the record here --
MS. GUNDLACH: You have it.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- and we'll make sure that we have it and make
sure that the applicant has a copy of it as well.
MS. WALKER: Okay.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Do you have two copies?
MS. GUNDLACH: There's definitely a copy that's in your backup material.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Mr. Arnold, have you seen the picture?
MR. ARNOLD: I don't recall that I've seen that.
MS. WALKER: Okay. So whoever's making this decision, do they have skin in the
game as far as kids going to that school or anything like that?
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Do what?
MS. WALKER: I mean, does somebody have, like, the kids or anybody that's going to be
going to that school that's going to be making this decision?
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. No, I don't have any kids that go to that
school.
MS. WALKER: So you're the one making the decision?
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah, I'm the one.
MS. WALKER: Okay. I just want to make sure --
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. I'm making the -- I'm the person. Yeah,
I'm the guy, the Hearing Examiner. I don't have any prior knowledge of this.
(Simultaneous crosstalk.)
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I'm here as a neutral decision-maker listening to
everybody. I'm taking lots of copious notes here because I know, if you look at the staff report, it
November 9, 2023
Page 21 of 31
lists out the criteria, and I'm thinking about that as we go by, so, yes.
MS. WALKER: Because, I mean, even with the fitness club that was there, and they're
talking about the school that was there earlier, that was before the interchange was opened.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah, I understand.
MS. WALKER: And then, like, when we're trying to make the U-turn at Livingston onto
Golden Gate Parkway, that is a right on red in one lane. So traffic really never stops, and there's a
lane off of --
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay.
MS. WALKER: -- the interstate that never stops. Right on red.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I get it. It's bad on Vanderbilt -- or it's bad on
Pine Ridge. It's bad on --
MS. WALKER: Well, you can look at Radio Road, too, where that school is. That
traffic is backed up for a long way for people trying to get in there to get their kids.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. You did a great job. Thank you.
MS. WALKER: Okay. Thank you.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Anybody else? Anybody else in the audience
that -- anybody? Going once, going twice. I'm going to close the public hearing.
Okay, thanks.
Everyone who spoke did a wonderful job, and that's exactly what I needed to hear, because
you guys are very focused on the issues that I suspected would come up. And I know that
Mr. Arnold has taken notes. I've taken notes. And I just -- I have a few questions for the
applicant. But first I want to ask the applicant, do you want to address some of the issues that
came up during that presentation? I think they were pretty focused.
MR. ARNOLD: Yes. Again, I'm Wayne Arnold representing the applicant. And, yes,
we would like to address those.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay.
MR. ARNOLD: It might help us a little bit just to confer if we could have a
couple-minute break.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah, we could give you a recess. Five minutes,
10 minutes?
MR. ARNOLD: That's more than enough. Five minutes is more than adequate.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Five minutes. So we'll take a five-minute recess
to 10 -- what does that say? 10:30. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
(A brief recess was had from 10:25 a.m. to 10:33 a.m.)
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Can I have everybody's attention. We're going to
call the Hearing Examiner meeting back to order. Thank you very much.
The applicant's representative asked for a recess to confer, and they are here. And how are
you, sir?
MR. YOVANOVICH: Doing fine, Mr. Dickman. Rich Yovanovich, for the record.
We anticipated that the questions regarding this property would be primarily related to
traffic. What we're going to do is we're going to bring up our traffic consultant who has obviously
issued a professional opinion regarding traffic as well as the county's staff.
But I just wanted to briefly bring up, this is not a new issue to many communities wherever
there are schools. I used to live in Pine Ridge. Covenant Church was coming through the
process, and there was tremendous concern about traffic and what was going to be happening, you
know, with having a big church with a school associated with that.
Well, there is a school associated with Covenant Church right now. It's the school that
we're talking about today. It has over 160 students there. Same hours of operations. And the
concerns about traffic and getting out onto U.S. 41, same situation where you're trying to cut across
three lanes of traffic to get into another three lanes of traffic simply hasn't resulted in accidents and
other things.
November 9, 2023
Page 22 of 31
Yes, there's traffic on every road in Collier County. There's nothing we're going to do
about traffic. The important thing is -- and you'll hear from our consultant, and you'll even hear
from Mr. Arnold who was there this morning who sat there and monitored traffic in the very times
that people are taking their kids to school. He'll give you firsthand testimony about what was there
today, and our professional consultant will give testimony to say that people do safely get to and
from that street onto the road, and they will safely get there with the addition of the school on the
site.
The site's going to be occupied. It's going to have a use. It's going to be a tremendous
use with the school. If you look at Covenant Church and that campus, they're basically the
operator of the school. It's going to be a quite nicely-run operation.
And with that, I'm going to ask Wayne to come up briefly and tell you about his experience
there this morning, and then I'll have Mr. Banks come up and give us his professional testimony
regarding the traffic.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So -- thank you very much.
Is Mike Sawyer here? Mike? Okay. I just wanted to make sure you're here and who
you are and everything like that. Good to see you. He's the county's transportation guy, too, as
well.
So, folks, here's -- I do not make a decision today, just -- I probably neglected to tell you
that. I have 30 days per code to take in all this information. That's why I'm taking my time to get
it all here today, because after today I can't talk to anybody else about it. That's the whole part of
having a neutral decision-maker. I'll have 30 days to render a decision.
But I want to unpack these issues. And part of this is that I have to listen to expert
testimony. Lay testimony can also be used if it's fact based and some other things. And I think
everyone did a really good job of really sort of zeroing in on the issues. There wasn't a lot of
extraneous discussion, and I appreciate that a lot.
But I'm going to -- I want to hear from Mr. Arnold. I want to hear -- because he is an
expert. Counsel here is an expert in the law, but he can't testify as to evidence and things of that
nature. That's why he's going to have his experts testify. And then I also do want to ask some
questions of the county's transportation expert because there is a bigger thing going on here,
and -- but if we can find some solutions, I hope we could do that.
Mr. Arnold.
MR. ARNOLD: Thank you. Again, Wayne Arnold, for your record.
And as Mr. Yovanovich mentioned, I was there this morning. I got there a few minutes
before 7 a.m. and sat there until a few minutes after 8 before I departed there to come to this
hearing. And I just made some general notations of the traffic movements in and out. And in that
just over an hour I observed 18 cars that utilized 68th, and four of those were outbound movements
that were trying to make left turns. The longest person that I counted that waited there was 10
seconds to make a left out. I -- personally, when I left the site, I made a left out. I had no wait.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: One second.
Folks, this has got to be done orderly. If you're going to speak out from the audience, I'm
going to ask you to step outside, okay. I gave everybody an opportunity to speak.
MR. ARNOLD: And I say that. I know that at other times it's probably nearly
impossible, as some of the neighbors have mentioned, to get in and out of there. But I'm just
saying in the morning time when people would be arriving and departing our site, there was an
adequate queue in the system to allow myself and others to exit the site safely.
Others, most of them made right turns. I know that -- I know one of the other residents on
the street. I've had a personal conversation with him. He said it's just the nature of the beast with
or without this use. He finds it easier to typically make a right turn and either make a U-turn, or
sometimes you have to go all the way around to Santa Barbara and down to Radio Road. It's just
the nature of how we travel in Collier County right now. I mean, every one of our east/west
arterials are busy in the mornings, in the evenings, whether it's Immokalee Road, Pine Ridge Road,
November 9, 2023
Page 23 of 31
Golden Gate Parkway, Davis Boulevard. It doesn't matter; they're all busy.
And the county has forced people in many cases to make U-turn movements as being safer
than trying to pull across three lanes of traffic to make left turn movements. Is it inconvenient?
Absolutely. But all of us have lived with having to do it, and that's just the nature about it.
Florida Department of Transportation is making adjustments on its state roads and the way Collier
County is handling a lot of its arterial roads.
But I just wanted to relate to you that most of the traffic movements this morning were
fairly free-flowing. And, again, as I said, I think that the way we've conditioned our project by
having the on-site stacking and queuing, it's not going to be the same issue that you've seen at other
schools.
My kids went to Lake Park Elementary School. I've observed the queue personally there.
It's the nature of the beast for any school in Collier County. Pickup time in the afternoon is the
time when the cars queue. The time in the morning is the time where people are dropped off over
a 30-minute to an hour period of time rather than one release time. And just remember, our
curriculum ceases around 3:30 every day, so that's a little before the 4:00 p.m. peak-hour peak for
Collier County.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. And I recognize that you're expressing
your sentiment on this morning, which is a one-time --
MR. ARNOLD: Correct.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- you know, situation, and I appreciate that. And
I appreciate you giving me that information.
Is there anything the school can do to perhaps stagger the arrivals or departures so that it's
not just let -- you know, one-time situation where it just floods onto -- onto 68th? Have you guys
discussed that at all?
MR. ARNOLD: I have not discussed that, but we certainly can discuss that.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. Well, why don't you just think
about that, and then let's hear from your -- I think Rich said that there was a traffic --
MR. ARNOLD: Jim Banks --
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Mr. Bank.
MR. ARNOLD: -- is our traffic engineer. He's here and prepared the traffic analysis.
Jim.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Hi, Mr. Banks.
MR. BANKS: Good morning, Mr. Hearing Examiner. For the record, Jim Banks,
professional engineer in the state of Florida; 35 years of experience as a traffic engineer in
Southwest Florida. And I've been recognized as an expert in my field on numerous occasions,
only once in front of the Hearing Examiner before, but --
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay.
MR. BANKS: -- many times before the Board of County Commissioners and Planning
Commission and the courts of law.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. And I've never personally met you, as far
as I know, but if you could just, at some point --
MR. BANKS: I'm a wonderful person, is what everybody says.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And that's what it takes to be an expert these days.
I can't seem to manage it. But if you could just, at some point, supply your CV to me --
MR. BANKS: I will do that; I will do that.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- that would be great, but I'll recognize you as an
expert.
MR. BANKS: Okay. Thank you very much.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. And I'm sure you're a nice guy, too.
MR. BANKS: There was -- there was some mention about crash data that was presented.
I think there's something on the record in your file I got a copy from the county. That crash data
November 9, 2023
Page 24 of 31
request was from the sheriff's department, and it included the intersection of Livingston and Golden
Gate Parkway, as well as the interstate and Golden Gate Parkway. And those -- the Livingston
and Golden Gate Parkway is identified in the top 20 highest crash intersections, and also there's
crashes that also occur at the interstate.
So when you request data from the Sheriff's Department and you include those limits of
those two intersections that are high-frequency crash data, it may be mis- -- I shouldn't say that it
intentionally was misleading or anything, but I'm just saying that the crashes that are on that
Sheriff's report include that high-crash intersection at Livingston as well as I-75.
The request should have been made within 200 feet east and west of the intersection if it
was something that would have been considered as credible evidence. Unfortunately, we did not
receive a copy of that crash report in time to where we could solicit that information from the
Sheriff's Department exactly as far as crash data that occurred at the intersection.
I, too, made observations at that intersection on two previous occasions, and my -- based
upon my observation, it operates most like any other intersection where you have a residential
street coming out on a major arterial. We have these at numerous locations. You've got for
Golden Gate Boulevard. You've got Immokalee Road. You've got Livingston Road. We've got
Santa Barbara, Collier Boulevard. As a matter of fact, I live on a street that comes out on Collier
Boulevard on the six-lane section, and I also have the same situation that was described at certain
times of the day. You pull up to the intersection. You've got to wait for an accessible gap in
traffic. And, beforehand, you were allowed to make a left out onto Collier Boulevard, and the
county, when they made improvements to Collier Boulevard, actually prohibit that movement now
from my street and several other streets that come out on Collier Boulevard and force people to -- if
they want to head in the opposite direction, they have to turn right out and go down to the next turn
lane and make a U-turn.
And in this situation, the residents of 68th have the opportunity to access onto Golden Gate
Parkway, turn right, head east, and then make a U-turn at 66th Street which is, again, common
practice.
I would also submit to the Hearing Examiner that it's actually Collier County's policy now
not to allow full median openings on six-lane roads. Now, they have not modified those
intersections on Golden Gate Parkway, and I'm not suggesting they're going to, but I do know that
county staff is in the process of evaluating Golden Gate Parkway and its operation to address both
congestion and also safety issues along that corridor.
I think Mike Sawyer will probably -- could offer some testimony as to when that study's
going to be initiated and when it's going to be completed, but Collier County is looking at what
type of improvements and changes they can make along the corridor to improve both congestion
and also safety.
As we concluded and as we determined in the report I prepared, based upon the ITE trip
generation rates, the school will generate less trips in the p.m. peak hour -- the critical p.m. peak
hour than what the health fitness center did -- or does and, also, the school, they terminate at about
3:30 p.m. every day.
So the traffic that would be coming in and out for the school will actually occur off peak
hours, which is what we're graded upon is -- that's one of the things -- the criteria that Collier
County looks at is what is the peak demand during the peak hours on the adjacent street, and the
school would generate significantly less traffic than what the health center does generate.
As far as it relates to on-site stacking, there is a -- we used a -- the North Carolina DOT,
they published a -- did an extensive survey on stacking of these private schools. And it works out
to where you need about -- for every four students, you need one vehicle to stack. And it's in the
p.m. peak hour when this occurs. It's not the morning, because in the morning people come in at
different times. They drop their -- drop their children off, and then they leave the site. So you
have this -- kind of this steady flow. It's not the morning that is causing the issue; it's the p.m.
peak hour.
November 9, 2023
Page 25 of 31
And in this case, we exceed what the study showed as far as recommending how many
vehicles we could stack on site, and we worked with county staff. We presented them two
circulation stacking plans, which I thought were good plans, and staff came back and said, how
about this as an alternative.
And so we're not objecting to what staff provided us. They reviewed it, too. They
determined that it would provide adequate stacking and -- whether we implement their plan, which
we're not opposing to, but we also have two other plans to where we can stack all of our traffic on
site.
And it will not be the situation like the school -- somebody mentioned the Radio Road
school. Now, I did not work on permitting that school, but I worked on it after the fact; in other
words, once they started showing that they were stacking cars out on Radio Road. Their situation
is they do not have adequate stacking on site. They do not have, for every four students, one
vehicle to be able to stack.
So what you're seeing there is a site that was approved -- I was not involved in that -- but it
did not have adequate stacking on site for what's occurring. So, again, we do have adequate
stacking on site, and you will not have a situation where we're going to have vehicles queued out
onto 66th -- 68th Street.
And then I would also like to point out, I did mention that the intersection at 68th and
Golden Gate Parkway is similar to most of the intersections in Collier County where you have a
residential street that comes out on a major arterial. And in this situation, they have signalized
intersections at both sides, at both ends of their -- or I should say the book -- to the east and to the
west have traffic signals, and those traffic signals create a gap in the traffic.
And so what can occur is you can pull up there -- and same situation I have pulling out on
Collier Boulevard. Sometimes you pull up there, and you have to wait until those traffic signals
create that gap in that traffic. But it does occur at that location. And, again, what they described
is what most of us that have residential streets that dump out on these major arterials are subjected
to every day.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Are you -- do you know what the level of service
is on this segment of Golden Gate Parkway?
MR. BANKS: Mike, I think it's Level of Service D? Yeah. Level of Service D, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What is that?
MR. YOVANOVICH: That's the adopted level.
MR. BANKS: It's operating within the county's standards.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah.
MR. BANKS: But, again, I'd like to point out that the county is in the process of doing
this corridor evaluation to improve this situation out there.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: In your opinion, would any signalization at either
end, with the major intersections that you mentioned, would that help in any way? Is there any,
like, tweaking of the signalization? Would that give a bigger gap of time for folks to get out?
MR. BANKS: Yeah. That would be one of the things that the county would look at as
far as is there ability to make those adjustments in the timing. It does create that gap in traffic
where it does allow people easier means of egress on these streets, side streets.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So it's your professional opinion that their -- the
crash data, I think you mentioned, included the intersections which are high crash data, that they
don't have concentrated crash data right there within a couple hundred feet of that intersection?
That's what you first said, right?
MR. BANKS: It should have been the way it was presented to the -- and I'm not saying
there was intention on anybody's part. But when you just make a request to the Sheriff's
Department of those -- where they requested from those two signalized intersections -- and, again,
Livingston is in the top 20 most high-incident intersections, obviously, you're going to have high
traffic -- high crash data.
November 9, 2023
Page 26 of 31
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Right. And then secondarily, based on the
signaling, you're stating that there is a -- once the lights set, there is a period for cars to ingress and
egress for --
MR. BANKS: There are recurring gaps. I mean, that's just a fact. On all these arterials,
when you have intersections that are that closely spaced, signaled intersections, they're about a mile
apart, that's what happens when you get these traffic lights. And it does -- and nobody likes to
stop at a traffic light, but believe it or not, the traffic lights do actually help with the traffic flow
because it does create that gap in the traffic to where it does allow people to access the major
arterial.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: How affected is this roadway due to seasonal -- we
have a seasonal population here. How affected is it?
MR. BANKS: I think it's about 20 percent fluctuation between the summer months and
then the seasonal months.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. Folks, I'm not kidding. This is the second
time I've asked you to -- I will ask you to leave the room if you can't, you know, respect everybody
who's trying to speak here. I'm trying to get as much information as I can, and I can't do it if I hear
you laughing and giggling and berating a professional that's trying to provide me with information.
You know, he's here under oath, just like you were.
Thank you.
MR. BANKS: Yep. That's my testimony, and any questions you have, I'm happy --
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Actually, Mr. Sawyer, can I ask you a question, a
couple questions, or get some of your feedback on it? Because you're with the county, and I want
to -- I want to hear a little bit.
Here's my impression. I've been here since 2005, and this is big picture. So east/west
traveling in the proper Collier County area is difficult. Population growth is increasing in the
eastern area of the county. People want -- there aren't -- there are a lot of gated communities, and
there aren't a lot of surface streets to be able to avoid traffic. There are not a lot of options, that's
what I'm kind of seeing with my experience living here.
And it tends to seem like it floods a lot of traffic onto Immokalee, Pine Ridge, Golden
Gate, you know, these east/west roads that -- and nobody has a way to kind of avoid things if
there's a crash or if there's overload; is that a fair statement?
MR. SAWYER: First, for the record, Mike Sawyer, Transportation Planning.
You're talking exactly the same thing that I was going to start off with, quite honesty. So,
Hearing Examiner, I applaud you.
In all seriousness, those are the major corridors that we have, and we do look at network
improvements. That means we started off with the worst of those corridors, which was Pine
Ridge. That was the first study that we completed. The second was the one that we just finished,
which was Immokalee Road. This next year we are going to be starting on Golden Gate now.
This is going to be the third study.
Just to let you know, the first improvement that's going to start occurring is Pine Ridge,
and that's going to be starting in -- hang on. I just want to make sure I've got the date correct.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: That's okay.
MR. SAWYER: Yeah, Pine Ridge is scheduled to start in 2025, and that is fully funded.
A couple other things, again, we've got the study that's going to be looking at this corridor.
We're well aware of it. It is a level of service, currently, D, but it does have a projected --
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Can you explain that to the public --
MR. SAWYER: Sure.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- because they may not understand
level-of-service grading.
MR. SAWYER: Our grading standards start at A, obviously, and go down to F.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Right.
November 9, 2023
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MR. SAWYER: If we have an F, we are required by law to amend that to make
improvements to improve it.
Anything that -- anything that comes in, we certainly look at what those impacts are going
to be. If we have a deficiency, which we do have a projected deficiency for this -- for this corridor
coming in 2026, that means we need to start looking at that now which is, again, the study that
we're going to be doing.
The public's going to be involved with that as soon as we have some conceptual
improvements which, likely, are going to relate quite a bit like the other studies where we're
looking at improving intersections.
There is little opportunity, if any, to improve these corridors by adding lanes. We've
pretty much already maxed out the number of lanes that we can do with the right-of-way that we've
got. So then we start looking at improvements on intersections and trying to make those
intersections more efficient. Usually when we do intersection improvements, we can realize
anywhere from a 20 to 30 percent increase in capacities, which is good for everybody.
In addition to that, we also have -- we also have the Florida forward -- Florida moving
forward program, which has now fully funded the improvements for 75 itself going all the way
from Golden Gate all the way north to Corkscrew. This, obviously, is also going to have to
overlap that study that we're going to be doing, and it's going to -- you know, depending on where,
you know, those limitations are, there is going to be overlap to those improvements and those
designs working forward, and we've done that with FDOT on a number of occasions.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: So -- and my background is in planning and law,
so I'm not an expert in traffic, but it seems to be -- to be a lot like a domino effect. You know,
something can happen on Pine Ridge and something, and then it -- you know, especially at peak
hours, and it will affect another intersection and then it will affect another one. So you've got a lot
of moving parts that you're looking at. You know, I feel for the folks that have to utilize these
major roadways.
And you did mention what I already knew which is, like, I know you maxed out the
right-of-way as far as, like, width and pavement and, unfortunately, when you do that, when you
expand those things, people tend to go faster, and that's not always a great thing.
I apologize for whatever's going on out here. I didn't plan that, so...
But a couple people raised the question of putting a light at 68th and Golden Gate
Parkway. What are the reasonings for why that couldn't happen? Is it too close to the other
intersections?
MR. SAWYER: First off, I'd like to definitely say that the residents aren't wrong.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: They're not wrong.
MR. SAWYER: I mean, we know that this is a bad corridor. Our director --
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I'm going to take a time-out.
(A brief recess was had.)
THE HEARING EXAMINER: All right. Sorry about that.
MR. SAWYER: That will be much -- very helpful.
When it comes to -- like I said, the residents aren't wrong. I mean, this is a bad corridor,
and we know that it's difficult to get in and out of those neighborhoods.
Our director has a home in Golden Gate City, so she goes up and down this corridor
constantly, so she is very much aware of it.
As far as signals themselves, there's 12 criteria that you need to meet in order to qualify for
a signal. Now, I am not saying by any means that a signal couldn't occur at this location, but it
needs to be one of the options that we're going to be looking at with our corridor study, and it's
not -- when you put in signals, what you wind up doing is taking away capacity on the roadways.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yep.
MR. SAWYER: And in some cases, that's a good thing, you know. They also, to an
extent, slow down traffic, and this particular corridor, if you do look at those crash studies, most of
November 9, 2023
Page 28 of 31
them are rear-ends. That's an indication of people not paying attention or going too fast.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Right.
MR. SAWYER: So we did look at that study, at that crash data. We also ran our own.
There's always differences from agency to agency when it comes to that kind of crash data, and
Jim's right. If you include the intersections, you've got higher counts rather than just the roadways
itself.
Hopefully that partly answers it.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: It does. No, it answers a lot. And this is going to
be -- I know this is a big ask, and if you can't, you can't. I know you're really busy.
But do you think that there would be an opportunity for you and/or your staff or whoever
the appropriate people are to maybe just organize a meeting in this neighborhood just to
talk -- because I think people would feel a little bit more optimistic that, you know, their
neighborhoods, their homes are going to get some relief at some point. It's not going to happen
right away, but explain some of these studies and improvements and things, that the county is
actually aware of the problems and are trying to work on it. Is there any way you could do a
community meeting?
MR. SAWYER: We'd be happy to meet with the community. I will tell you that that
study will include a number of outreach meetings with the neighborhood through the process.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay.
MR. SAWYER: So it's not something that we just go ahead and do the study and just go
out and start bidding it -- bidding out the improvements.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: I know these things are complicated. But I think
if they just hear -- like, even just hearing what you're saying today --
MR. SAWYER: Sure.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: -- you know, in three or four years there might be
some improvements that are happening that actually, you know, give you 10 more seconds to get
out in traffic, and that's a big deal, you know. Because they're talking about making left turns on
these, and I could see where it would be very scary to go out and have to drift out into the median
and try to make a left turn while everybody else is in a decel lane and all that stuff.
But this is a complicated problem, folks, to solve, and it's not -- it's not unique to just
Golden Gate, although I think Golden Gate is a particularly -- it rapidly changed when the flyover
and the interstate connection happened. Pine Ridge is terrible. I remember Immokalee, going
through that whole construction process, and it's immediately flooded, you know.
But when you get into some of the areas -- there are a few areas, a few pockets in the
urbanized area of Collier County that does have cross streets and ability to, like, make choices,
different choices instead of, like, always having to be on these major arterials, and it makes a
difference. But, unfortunately, the way that a lot of Collier County has developed involves gated
communities, and that doesn't allow for, you know, surface streets or changes in traffic patterns.
So I think the only thing that the county can do is start looking at these intersections and
whatever things that they can adjust to try to give some relief.
So I appreciate the information you gave us today. Thank you.
MR. SAWYER: Thank you.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: And, you know, folks, if you want to get his
number, maybe he has a card, but I think that they would really appreciate an impromptu, maybe,
community meeting out there just to get some of this information, you know, you or one of your
colleagues, about the traffic -- traffic studies and improvements that are coming down the road.
MR. SAWYER: Absolutely.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thanks for being here.
MR. SAWYER: Sure.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Sir, the public -- the public hearing has been
closed, so, sorry. I gave everybody a chance to speak.
November 9, 2023
Page 29 of 31
Mr. Yovanovich, I wanted to ask about busing. Like, does the school have any plans for
busing, or is this all going to be dependent on parents or relatives or somebody dropping off the
kids?
MR. YOVANOVICH: Currently, there's no plans for busing.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: No plans for busing.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Yeah. Just when it's appropriate, I'd like to make just a couple
comments.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah.
MR. YOVANOVICH: And I truly appreciate the comments regarding traffic and stacking
during the pickup. You know, I was a dad, too, and I was in the car line every day because I
enjoyed being with my kids until they no longer wanted to be with their dad. So I got to drop
them off, you know, pretty much up until they were sophomores in high school. So I lasted a lot
longer than most.
The schools that we're referring to with a lot of long lines are probably four times the size
of the school we're talking about right now.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah.
MR. YOVANOVICH: You're talking -- I mean, we're talking about 225 total students.
Those other schools have far more students than what we're talking about here.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: How many -- like, what's Lake Park?
MR. YOVANOVICH: I bet Lake Park's probably 800. You know, my kids went to
Seagate. There was probably 6- to 800 in that elementary school, and then you go to the middle
school at Pine Ridge Middle; it had to be over a thousand kids that were going there. So they're
much, much larger than what we're talking about here.
And I think what hasn't been brought up -- and maybe it was brought up -- I think
Mr. Arnold brought it up is the traffic for this site is already on Golden Gate Parkway through the
use of the existing use.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah.
MR. YOVANOVICH: So it's already been factored into what's already there.
And I want to point out that someone said that Livingston Road is a free-flow right turn.
That's not true. There's a traffic signal. As you're coming off of Livingston Road to head east,
there's a traffic signal there. So Mr. Banks is correct about creating that gap for people to get in
and out into traffic.
You asked about staggering, you know, the drop-off in the morning and perhaps in the
afternoon. You know, it's a small school, so it's not realistic to stagger the drop-off in the
morning, but we've intentionally called quitting time at 3:30 so that we are avoiding the peak.
And one of the -- one of the points that I'd like to make is, there's no way this school would
have picked to go on this site if they thought it was unsafe for those who are coming to this school.
So all the expert testimony indicates we've met the criteria for changing this
nonconforming use. I think the traffic testimony is clear that we're consistent with the county's
traffic policies and traffic mandates. Your staff's recommending approval, and we're hopeful in 30
days that you will render an opinion or order approving what we're requesting.
If you have any more questions of me or anybody else, we'll be happy to answer them.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. There was a comment about the south end
and campers parking on the site and buffers. Is this just a vacant site and somebody took
advantage of the parking?
MR. YOVANOVICH: Sure, there probably are, but when we're there, I can assure you
that that will not -- we'll be shooing people away. This is not going to be where you can -- you
can put your camper.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: All right. Let me just scan my notes here. I've
quite a few of them.
Do you feel -- is there -- someone brought up the idea of -- are you opening up a PE -- a
November 9, 2023
Page 30 of 31
physical education field, like a soccer field or --
MR. YOVANOVICH: I don't -- there's no plans for a soccer field.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah.
MR. YOVANOVICH: We have -- we have what we believe to be the appropriate
physical education opportunities.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Yeah. You have a basketball court, you have a
tennis court -- or, I mean, a swimming pool, but what happens -- and I've seen this, someone -- you
know, let's say that somewhere in here you decide that there's going to be an open area for a small
soccer field, then you put lights up and, you know, the whole thing. So we're not going that
direction, right?
MR. YOVANOVICH: No, sir.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. And I think that's controlled by
the conditions that are listed here as well.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Uh-hmm.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. This is -- this is a tough one, I won't kid
you. That's why they have their experts here; otherwise, they would just be coming in and ask.
And these are difficult uses. I get it. I'm sensitive to the east/west roadways. I hope the county
will get out there and start, you know, getting the message out so that people feel like there's hope
on the horizon and that there's alternatives.
But thank you, everyone, for your very directed testimony. Thank you for -- the neighbors
for coming out. I know you're frustrated. That's not uncommon, but I also appreciate you
containing your frustration and focusing your comments on the things that I needed to hear, as well
as the letters and the photographs and things like that. I feel like I have a full picture here. And
know that I'm also a resident of Collier County, and I drive these roads all the time, and I know -- I
know what to avoid, where to avoid it, what -- and I was also -- you know, kids, I dropped off at
Lake Park Elementary once myself; I used to love it. High school, a little early, but I enjoyed the
30-minute ride with my sons, and I know what that's like. I've experienced it myself.
So I know the frustration that goes along with it, but -- all right. So under the code, I have
30 days to evaluate all of this and to put together a written -- a written final order, and that's what
I'll do.
Does the county have anything else? Does anybody -- anything else? You're done,
Nancy?
MS. GUNDLACH: I'm done.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay, thanks.
MR. YOVANOVICH: Thank you.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Thank you. I appreciate everybody's help on this,
and I'll do my best to get this --
MS. WALKER: Can I just correct one thing on the lights?
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: No, ma'am. You've had your opportunity. I
closed the public hearing. I can't keep going back and forth, because then I would have to allow
for the applicant to be able to address that.
MS. WALKER: They got to rebut. We don't get to rebut.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. So let me explain something about public
hearings. So the parties to a public hearing is the applicant and the county, and then you have the
public. So the parties get an opportunity to rebut anything or address anything. So I gave
everybody an opportunity to speak. And you did a great job, and I understand the issues. Thank
you.
MR. YOVANOVICH: I was just told I did make a mistake.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: You made a mistake?
MR. YOVANOVICH: Believe it or not. What I meant to say was it was at the interstate
creates the gap. Livingston is to the east, if I have it right, but -- there is still a gap, but what I
November 9, 2023
Page 31 of 31
meant to say is that the light was at the interstate, not at Livingston. So I want to correct that on
the record.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Okay. All right. Thank you.
I think that's it. I've got a lot of information. I took a lot of notes. We'll get through
this, so thank you very much.
All right. Anything else before I adjourn? When's the next meeting, by the way? Are
we changing the date? Do we have holiday meetings?
MS. PADRON: The next meeting is 12/28 [sic].
MR. BOSI: No, the next meeting is 12/14.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah. When is it?
MR. BOSI: 12/14 is the next HEX meeting.
HEARING EXAMINER DICKMAN: Right, because we've got Thanksgiving at the end
of the month, so we're skipping, and we're going to December?
MR. BOSI: Yes.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: All right. Everyone have a happy Thanksgiving, by the
way.
MR. ARNOLD: You, too.
THE HEARING EXAMINER: All right. Take care. Have a great day.
The meeting's closed.
*******
There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the
Hearing Examiner at 11:14 a.m.
COLLIER COUNTY HEARING EXAMINER
________________________________________
ANDREW DICKMAN, HEARING EXAMINER
These minutes approved by the Hearing Examiner on __________, as presented _______ or as corrected ______.
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF FORT MYERS COURT REPORTING, BY TERRI L.
LEWIS, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER, FPR-C, AND NOTARY PUBLIC.
12/1/23 4