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BCC Minutes 09/21/2023 B September 21, 2023 Page 1 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS Naples, Florida, September 21-22, 2023 BUDGET HEARING LET IT BE REMEMBERED that the Board of County Commissioners, in and for the County of Collier, and also acting as the Board of Zoning Appeals and as the governing board(s) of such special districts as have been created according to law and having conducted business herein, met on this date at 5:05 p.m., in SPECIAL SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following Board members present: Chairman: Rick LoCastro Chris Hall Dan Kowal William L. McDaniel, Jr. Burt L. Saunders ALSO PRESENT: Amy Patterson, County Manager Edward Finn, Deputy County Manager Daniel Rodriguez, Deputy County Manager Jeffrey A. Klatzkow, County Attorney Troy Miller, Communications & Customer Relations September 21, 2023 Page 2 MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Good evening, everyone. If we could have everyone take their seats. We've got a long night ahead of us, I'm sure. Before we start with the Pledge, I just want to thank all the citizens that are here and the people that are online, the hundreds of emails that we got. You know, the one thing I think that was -- that is obvious to maybe some of us is citizens in this county, and maybe every county across the country, don't know as much about their budget and government and how things work and maybe that this process has enlightened a few people, has given them a voice. We've heard from a lot more citizens than we've ever heard from, and to see a full house in here tonight, nobody up here is unhappy about that. This is the people's house, you know, as they say. And so public comment's the most important thing that we're going to have tonight, and I'm going to get to that. But we're going to start with the Pledge, and the person I'm going to ask to say the Pledge is going to be the only person in this room who is never going to say a word tonight at all. They're not going to speak, for sure, guaranteed, and that's Ms. Terri Lewis, who is keeping our minutes here. So we're going to hear her voice and hear her scream out the Pledge, and please say it along with all of us, led by Ms. Lewis. (The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay, that's it, Terri. That was great. Some of you only get to -- you'll speak for three minutes, and then you'll stay or leave. She's typing every word there, and I have a few things to say about that as well. So we're here for a budget hearing. Everybody really keep that in mind. It's about the budget. I know there's folks in the audience September 21, 2023 Page 3 have a very, very specific thing they want to talk about, and that's great. But remember, we have a lot of work to do tonight across a lot of different departments that we didn't hear from a lot of citizens about, but we still have to make definitive decisions tonight. First order of business, everybody silence their cell phone, okay. We don't want to -- we don't want to hear your favorite baseball song or, you know, your wedding tune or whatever in the middle of the meeting. So everybody, come on, dig out -- there's always somebody that has it in a pocket or a purse, and then we wind up hearing it in an hour. Yeah, I was -- no, I saw that. I saw that. So please silence your cell phones, okay. Just put them on -- put them on vibrate, you know. We'd appreciate it. The first -- here's the sequence of events. And tonight's is a little bit unique, okay; it's not a normal Board of County Commissioner meeting. And I met with the County Attorney. I met with Ms. Patterson. I've talked to a few other people. And we're going to adjust some things to make sure we put priorities right up front. The first thing we're going to do is we're going to hear from Mr. Finn and Mr. Johnson, Ed Finn and Chris Johnson, who are our financial experts. They're going to give a very brief overview to just sort of package what tonight's -- what tonight is all about and the high points that we have to hit. They're going to be at the podium so much more later, but they're going to give us an introduction to start it off. Then we're immediately going to go into public comment. We're not going to hear from the commissioners at all. We need to hear from the people first. And it may change the notes that we're making up here. Somebody may come to the podium and has some great proposal that maybe we didn't think of. And so the power is in September 21, 2023 Page 4 you-all being here. But a couple of reminders, a couple of reminders. Speak slowly, okay. You only have three minutes, but Terri can only type so fast. So find an equal balance, if you can. As we always say in every commissioner meeting, if something's -- if it's already been said, what you were going to say, if you've already heard from 30 people that say I love the environment and I love low taxes -- okay, everybody does, okay. So hearing 30 people say that maybe isn't helping us make a decision on the budget. But I'll preface it by saying, nobody's keeping you from the podium, okay. If you want to come to the podium, you have three minutes to say whatever you want. But remember we're looking for efficiency here tonight. We've got to really get to the meat on the bone. And so, you know, speeches about something we've already heard unbelievable -- gotten unbelievable amounts of feedback, we have it. But I don't say that to discourage anybody from speaking at the podium. Remember also, too, you can offer your three minutes to somebody else. So if you have somebody that really has a lot to say and they can't say it in three minutes, hopefully you-all have partnered out in the audience and you've gotten together so that maybe somebody has a little bit more time to be more eloquent and detailed, and your three minutes helped them. One of the things I can tell you we're looking for from public comment -- and the reason why I put it first is because we're also looking for your stance on something and maybe a proposal, an idea. So 100 people all telling us, like I said, the environment's important or low taxes are important is great, but if you're sitting on something where you think you've got a -- you'd have a better decision if you were in one of these five seats, we want to hear it. So, you know, September 21, 2023 Page 5 use your minutes to give us a proposal, a recommendation, an idea. That's very important. Anybody know Newton's third law? Okay. Who knows it? Raise their hand. Who's this? Okay. I'll give it to you. For every action, right, there's an equal and opposite reaction. So if you want to save a billion dollars by not funding the space program, then it's got to -- you know, it has another reaction somewhere else. If you want to fund the space program with a billion dollars, we're not printing money in the basement here. There's no elves in the basement with magic wands and pixie dust. So keep that in mind when you -- if you have a great idea of I want to fully fund everything, this is a budget hearing, and we have a certain amount of money. You know that, but that's where I just say, keep that in mind when you come to the podium, because we really want your ideas, and we've heard some great ones. I already see some people out here that sent us some emails that were some really great suggestions or starting points, so we want to know that. So now we'll hear from Mr. Finn and, actually, Mr. Johnson's going to speak first. And then if there's any citizens that are out there that still want to speak during public comment, it's sort of now or never. Get with Mr. Miller up here. You have to fill out a piece of paper saying you would like to speak, and that window is closing so that we can really make sure we take control of this meeting and really use your time wisely. So having said that, I thank you for being here, we all do; really appreciate it. This is how government works. And without being -- without anything else said, Mr. Johnson and Mr. Finn, the floor is yours. MR. FINN: Thank you, sir. Very good. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners. This is the final September 21, 2023 Page 6 public hearing on the Collier County Government Fiscal Year '23/'24 budget which begins October 1, 2023, and runs through September 30, 2024. The final public budget hearing must follow a specific format pursuant to TRIM guidelines. Your agenda contains the specific sequence of agenda items to be covered. And I am Edward Finn, Department County Manager. I apologize for not putting that on. Pursuant to Florida Statute Chapter 200, the required advertisement for this final hearing was published in the Naples Daily News on Monday, September 18th, 2023. Following some introductory remarks regarding tax rates and discussion on the FY '24 tentative budget as approved at the first public hearing on September 7th, there will be an opportunity, of course, for the public to speak. Speakers will be called by name. Just a quick summary of where we are on the agenda. We're going to discuss the millage rates. There have been no further amendments to the tentative budget as of this moment, and I'll advise the Board of that. Public comments, resolution to amend the tentative budgets. In and around Item C and D, if there are changes to the budget, staff is going to ask for a break. The break is to allow us to put together the proper paperwork. We did do an exercise over the last couple of days to determine how long that would take. We're going to gamble that it's only going to take us 90 minutes, though every exercise we ran took longer than that. Public reading of the taxing authority levying millages, adoption of resolution setting those millage rates, and a resolution to adopt the final budget. Quick outline, timeline. Budget development is a nine-month process culminating with the two public budget hearings set in September 21, 2023 Page 7 September. This year the planned budget review opportunities were supplemented by three regular Board meeting discussions; one in July, one in August, and one earlier this month. We're going to give you a quick overview. The adopted budget policy called for a millage neutral, that is the same millage rate as last year for budgets reliant on the countywide and unincorporated area millages. The Board has not increased the rate of taxation. Any increase in individual county taxes is attributable to a rise in the taxable value. As we have discussed, there have -- we have seen substantial increases in market and taxable value this year. Those increases can in some cases lead to increases in the taxes charged to individual properties. Fortunately, for homestead property, the Florida Constitution provides the Save Our Homes 3 percent limit on the annual assessed value increase. This shields homestead property from taxable-value-driven increases exceeding 3 percent and applies to all taxing authorities. As a result, a typical homestead property owner saw a modest increase in overall taxes due this year under the proposed rates. For non-homestead property, there's a constitutional 10 percent limit to the annual assessed value increase for taxing authorities other than school boards. As a result, non-homestead property -- property are limited to a 10 percent increase as it pertains to county taxes, but increases related to the school board are not capped. Agenda Item 1A, rolled-back tax rate discussion. State law requires that the first substantive issue to be discussed are the percentage increase in millage over the rolled-back rate needed to fund the budget and the reason ad valorem tax revenues above the rolled-back rate, as calculated by the forms provided by the Department of Revenue, are being increased. September 21, 2023 Page 8 The rolled-back rate is defined as that tax rate necessary to generate prior year tax revenues. The rolled-back rate is calculated net of or excluding taxable values associated with new construction, additions, deletions, and restorative improvements. In March of 2023, the Board adopted budget guidance for Fiscal Year '24. That guidance included a millage neutral tax levy, meaning the same tax rate as last year. For the General Fund, the millage neutral tax rate is 3.5645 per thousand dollars of taxable value, as it has been since FY 2010. For the Unincorporated Area General Fund, the millage neutral rate is 0.8069 per thousand dollars of taxable value, as it has been since 2017. The Conservation Collier tax levy currently included in the '24 tentative budget is at a millage neutral rate of 0.25 mills per thousand dollars of taxable value. Tax levies for the General Fund, Conservation Collier, and Unincorporated Area General Fund together represent the majority of the total aggregate taxes levied across all Collier County Government taxing authorities for FY '24. The FY '24 tentative General Fund and Unincorporated Area General Fund operating and capital budgets as presented are based upon Board-adopted budget policy. Both the General Fund and the Unincorporated Area General Fund proposed tax rates are higher than the rolled-back rate. Collier County taxable value has increased for FY '24 by 13.52 percent and 13.97 percent within the General Fund and Unincorporated Area General Fund respectively. Within an increasing taxable value environment under a millage neutral policy, that will result in the millage rate being lower than the millage -- I'm sorry -- the rolled-back rate being under the millage neutral rate. September 21, 2023 Page 9 Referring to Exhibit 1A in your packet, millage rates for each Collier County taxing authority controlled by Collier County Government have been established pursuant to Board guidance. The roster of tax rates, which represent the maximum tax rates which can be levied, were approved at the first public budget hearing on September 7th. The cumulative aggregate rolled-back rate for all Collier County taxing authorities, exclusive of debt service, totals 4.0025 per thousand dollars of taxable value. The proposed aggregate tax rate for all Collier County taxing authorities, exclusive of debt service, totals 4.4397 per thousand dollars of taxable value. This represents an increase of 10.92 percent over the aggregate rolled-back rate and necessitated a notice of proposed tax rate increase advertisement for TRIM purposes and not simply a budget summary advertisement. As previously stated, this advertisement appeared in the Naples Daily News on September 18th. Tentative budget discussion, there are currently no changes to the tentative budget from when it was approved on September 7th. I will advise the Board, as I kind of noted up front, we will need to take a break if changes are to be made to the budget. Having said that, the Chair was pretty clear he wanted to take public comment, and if you care to do that now, sir, that would be fine. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Does Mr. Johnson have anything he wanted to add? MR. JOHNSON: No, sir, not yet. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Ms. Patterson, do you have anything that you wanted to add? MS. PATTERSON: Not at this time, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Mr. Klatzkow? MR. KLATZKOW: No, sir. September 21, 2023 Page 10 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. What happened to Mr. Miller? Did we lose him? Okay. Somebody send out a search party for Troy Miller. We're at public comment. I would just remind the public, if you want to make a -- if you want to make comment, we're about to close that window, so... You almost lost a job there for a second. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, good evening, sir. We have 56 registered speakers here in the room, 19 registered on Zoom, but that's only 13 in the room on Zoom at this point. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So just to remind speakers, you can give your time to somebody else if you want. If you feel like what's already been said is what you would say, you can just waive your time if you're -- you know, if you've heard that. So just a reminder, but not keeping anybody from the podium. MR. MILLER: And in order to expedite the process, I'm going to be calling two names. I would like people to queue up at both podiums so that we can move along a little quicker. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So we're going to close the public comment as far as filling out the sheets now; is that correct? MR. MILLER: That's your prerogative, sir. Yes, I will -- okay. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. And the last comment I'll just make is no commissioner woke up this morning thinking about how they could make a bad decision for the county. So although you may or may not believe that, you know, we're all here to hear you out and also make the best decisions possible with the money we have available. So having said that, who's our first speaker, sir? MR. MILLER: Our first speaker is Tim Guerrette, and he will be followed by Monica Higgins. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. September 21, 2023 Page 11 MR. GUERRETTE: Good evening, Commissioners. Thank you so much for having me. You guys do a wonderful job, and it's a tough job to do, and thank you for -- everybody else for being here. My name's Tim Guerrette. I'm a concerned citizen, 33 years here in Collier County, and I'm also a candidate for Collier County Supervisor of Elections. I stand before you today to address the proposed 21 percent increase for the Collier County Supervisor of Elections office. While acknowledging the importance of safe, secure, ethical elections, I believe it's essential to scrutinize and evaluate the necessities of such a significant budget increase, 21 percent. That's a lot of money, folks, 21 percent, especially in the times that fiscal responsibility and prudence should be our utmost priority. As responsible stewards of taxpayers' dollars, it's our duty to ensure that every penny spent is justified and contributes to the betterment of our community. I am very aware the Supervisor of Elections office plays a key role in upholding the people's right to vote and to be heard, but we must also carefully examine whether a 21 percent increase is excessive or even warranted. Now, it's not to say that the Supervisor of Elections does not require adequate funding. We know it does, but let's compare that to the Collier County Sheriff's Office coming in at 7 percent. They also have a heavy duty. Safe, secure elections are part of the backbone of our community, and we must ensure that our Supervisor of Elections Office has the necessary resources to fulfill its obligations; however, we must consider alternative measures such as available grants to optimize the efficiency and effectiveness before resorting to a 21 percent increase in that budget. I urge the Board of Collier Commissioners to thoroughly review September 21, 2023 Page 12 the budget increase and engage in a constructive dialogue with the Supervisor of Elections Office. Let them seek innovative ways and solutions and explore opportunities by streamlining operations, leveraging technology, and doing things a little bit better. I come from a background where we always did things because we had to, and we found ways to do things within our budgets; 21 percent, that's a lot of money. Additionally, it's imperative that we consider the current economic climate. Families and businesses are struggling to make ends meet, and any significant budget increase may place an un -- a hardship for those folks. Again, I appreciate your time. Please consider the 21 percent increase, whether or not it's excessive, and we want to make sure that our elections do stay safe, secure, and ethical, thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Monica Higgins. She'll be followed by Andrew Sillin. MS. HIGGINS: Good evening. My name's Monica Higgins. I'm a small business owner here in Collier County. I help birders find birds, I lead bird tours, and I design habitats for people -- homeowners for their own yards. It's a small business, but consider this: One of the birds I found this year was a American Birding Association Category 5 large-billed tern. Had never been found in Collier County, had never been found in Florida, and it's only the -- hadn't been found in the U.S. since 1988. Over 400 people have come to see that bird in this county. They spent money on airplanes, renting cars, hotels, buying meals. This is important, and they all came just to see this one bird. Some came from as far as away as Ontario, Connecticut, Washington State. Unfortunately, the area where the bird was found is now being developed into housing, and many of the areas that we birders come September 21, 2023 Page 13 to are being developed into housing, have already been approved. That's why I want to support Conservation Collier and they have their complete funding, because without these areas we will lose these areas for birds. Lost birds, lost birders, and lost dollars for the county. So I ask you to continue to fully fund Conservation Collier. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Andrew Sillin. He will be followed by Reverend Tony Fisher. MR. SILLIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Andrew Sillin -- my name is Andrew Sillin, and I've been a Collier County resident for nine years. MR. MILLER: Oh, boy. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Is that microphone working? MR. MILLER: Apparently it's having an issue. MR. SILLIN: Maybe I blew it out. MR. MILLER: I tell you what, we'll have him go to that one. I'll get a backup microphone and bring it in here, sir. Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you. MR. MILLER: Go ahead and go to the other podium, sir. MR. SILLIN: Just don't cut my time. MR. MILLER: We won't do that. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: We're going to start over. Sir, can you please wrap up. This is part of our master plan. Bad mics, yeah. You think we're dumb and stupid; we're not. MR. SILLIN: There are really good speakers coming after me. Again, thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Andrew Sillin. I'm a Collier County resident for nine years. Yep, a taxpayer. And I'm here to speak on behalf of -- support of Conservation Collier. I share my remarks with the deepest respect for the legislative September 21, 2023 Page 14 process and the deepest respect for the voters. I will also do my best not to use alternative facts. The voters of Collier and Florida for the past 25 years, time and time again, have voted for legislation that protects: Protects our water, protects our land, protects our wildlife, overwhelming. These votes have been 60 and 70 percent, whether they be challenging financial years or wonderful financial years. This is what the residents of this state want from our elected officials. It's something unheard of. And, again, our elected officials, struggling with budgets, struggling with whatever political pressures are upon them, they nibble away and they want to see these disappear. You know, Mr. Chairman, mission creep. Some examples that have come to mind. In 2000, the governor, at the last minute, changed legislation that would have finally protected the quality of the water flowing into Lake Okeechobee. It set back that process 25 years. You can look it up. In 2016, the governor defunded -- began to defund Florida Forever. Hard work by citizens who fought against that. It's very similar to what's happening tonight in the budget process. You're now exploring the same playbook. Slow walk the funding for Conservation Collier, an incredibly popular program, so it will eventually die. Because once you cut it, you don't restore it. It will be only a few years where Collier will go the way of Dade and Broward. You begin the slippery slope tonight. This will be your legacy, just like those others before you. You will be remembered for cutting to protect the most important treasures we have: Our water, our land, and our wildlife, and the ability -- the ability to purchase it for all the future generations. This is the reason we all live here. Don't cut this program. Don't do this. Land values will go up. The money to buy it will go September 21, 2023 Page 15 down. The landowners will only do the natural thing: They'll sell it for profit. If your budget-cutting is necessary, there are other sacred cows. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sir, if you can sum up. Thank you. MR. SILLIN: Well, I -- remember, my time was taken from me. MR. MILLER: It was not, sir. MR. SILLIN: I've only got another 30 seconds. Please don't interrupt me. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sir, sir, sir. MR. MILLER: I didn't interrupt you, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sir, go ahead. MR. SILLIN: Some in your party have maybe pushed you for a sacred cow to protect. The resources, the land, and the water are the most sacred cow. I'm here to encourage you not begin the slippery slope and cut Conservation Collier. Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Reverend Tony Fisher, and he will be followed by Richard Schroeder. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: If I can just remind everyone, we really would appreciate no clapping, no booing, none of that. We're trying to run -- you know, this year we've had some really controversial topics in here, and I really thank the citizens that allowed us to run a professional meeting. So if we could just refrain from that, we really would appreciate it, so we can get through the speakers. Sir. MR. MILLER: Okay. This mic is working. Go ahead, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And then if we can queue up our next speaker there. September 21, 2023 Page 16 Sir, the floor is yours. REVEREND FISHER: Thank you so much. My name is Reverend Tony Fisher. I serve the Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Greater Naples. I live in North Naples on the west side of Vanderbilt Drive. I want to thank you all for taking on the challenge of administrating the work and goals of this county, and I understand how difficult that work is, especially when it comes to budget time. In my faith tradition, we lift up and raise as most important the interdependent web of all creation, of which each one of us is a part, and we are challenged in our faith to work towards the conservation of our environment, the protection of our environment, and that's a difficult thing to do when it comes to deciding between development and resources that you have present in the county. There's a tremendous pressure for development here, and I understand that, but I think that as we understand ourselves in relationship to this earth and do that with humility and reverence, I think we need to begin as citizens and hopefully as County Commissioners to center the environment in every decision that we make, and in order to do that, you have to have the resources. You have to have the people willing to help. And so I think that I'm including my voice in the calls to conserve the resources that you, in the past, have given to Conservation Collier. I think being good stewards of our environment should at the very least mean that you center the environment in your decisions. The environment not only provides open spaces for our people to breathe; it provides the land that people desire to come to and visit and live in, but it also provides the opportunity for mitigating storm damage, and that's also an important thing. I mentioned that I live on the west side of Vanderbilt Drive. September 21, 2023 Page 17 The area in which I live is protected by a barrier island and one-third of a mile of mangrove. And we suffered minimal damage in my association because of that protection. And I think we need to look at the environment around and look towards advancing that, protecting that, improving that as much as possible so that we can mitigate any for future damage from storms. So that's all I have to say. I hope that you'll consider that. I think that if you were to consider providing additional fees to developers for the environment, that you might, in fact, raise enough money to fund this -- fund this important program and also slow down the kind of development here that I don't think is necessarily helpful for Southwest Florida. Thank you so much. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Richard Schroeder. He'll be followed by Richard Blonna. DR. SCHROEDER: Dr. Richard Schroeder, retired medical doctor. And thank you, all of you, for your very diligent work on the budget process. I know this isn't easy. And it's a good thing, too, because studies of historical cycles by economists like Howell and Friedman and Turchin, they all suggest a major crisis in the very near-term future, and that crisis involves an inflationary spiral that isn't going to go away until a whole lot of things get transformed. So it's important for our government agencies to do their part to hold the budgetary line into the teeth of this rampant inflation. This is an inflation that has been engineered by the Federal Reserve, various corporate, governmental, and global control interests, and those interests are in the service of the new world order and Agenda 2030. Ever since we got slapped alongside the head beginning with the September 21, 2023 Page 18 plandemic in 2020, most of us have become quite aware of all sorts of nefarious manipulations behind the scenes to control us and how vulnerable we are to mass propaganda and mind-control techniques. The economic heart of this process is what Turchin calls the wealth pump. That's the mechanism by which the self-serving so-called elites gain increasing control of assets while wages and wealth decline for everyone else. This is how the process is playing out right now in the United States and other countries as well and is a key component to the global control mechanism. It is not a secret that destruction of the middle class makes populations easier to control, and it is the middle class that is the taxpayers, the bulk of the taxpayers, that will be squeezed next. But what's so critical about the county holding or reducing taxes this particular year is that this is just the beginning of the inflationary spiral, and that the county controls a budget that is just, logarithmically, larger than that of our individual budgets. Responsible county government won't disappear if a really few -- if a few tough budgetary decisions are made, but individual households on the financial margins certainly will disappear if the county and other government entities, such as the school board, which already seems to have failed the community in this regard, continue raising taxes into this inflationary environment. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Richard Blonna, and he'll be followed by Joe Alger. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Councilor Blonna from Marco Island, I appreciate you being here and for the emails that you sent us for your position on Marco. Thank you. COUNCILMAN BLONNA: Thanks for taking the time to answer them. Okay. Good evening. After extensive conversations with September 21, 2023 Page 19 Chairman LoCastro, a review of your budget documents, and a careful study of the videos of your budget discussions, I've come away with really a newfound appreciation of the amazing job that you, the County Manager, the Assistant County Manager, and your department heads are doing in crafting this budget. I'm especially appreciative of the handling of the reserves as they play a strong, incredible role -- a countywide role in emergencies such as hurricane cleanup efforts. We on the Marco Island City Council just finished working through our budget process and face the same challenges that you're facing. My struggle with trying to figure out the most responsible way to manage a budget of approximately $30 million pales in comparison with your responsibility to manage a budget of around $2 billion. Initially, I was concerned about the legality of changing the Conservation Collier millage rate and shifting the funds around. Through my review, I learned that you have the right to both adjust the millage rate and shift funds. The referendum rate of .25 mills is the maximum rate, but it can legally be adjusted downward. As far as funds shifting, as Mr. Finn said last week, it has already been used once to cover the gap when the funding lapsed between the old program and the reauthorization in 2020. Regarding the three fundings options that you discussed last week: Option 1, funding the program at the existing level, I support this for the reason that Commissioner Saunders cited, that the increasing cost of purchasing land -- it might be a good idea to keep the funding increasing also. And this is especially relevant for Marco Island as the number of available parcels shrinks and the cost of our land continues to increase. Option 2 was adjust the millage rate downward to stabilize funding at the current or slightly lower level. It was interesting, the September 21, 2023 Page 20 annual valuation estimates that you brought up and discussed would result in a surplus of approximately $68 million more revenue than was initially anticipated in 2020, and your argument for cutting the Conservation Collier millage rate to reflect that seems a reasonable approach given the myriad of other budgetary shortfalls you face and your desire to be fiscally responsible and help residents cope with the high cost of living. Adjusting the millage rate downward could also still provide a stable enough foundation to continue to acquire land and fund the maintenance budget. I would support this option as long as it did not shift the program's focus from acquiring the best properties to just acquiring the cheapest properties. Land on Marco is among the most expensive being considered by Conservation Collier, but it also is unique in the value it possesses. Option 3, pause the program. I do not support this option. Pausing this process will definitely result in losing some key parcels, as willing sellers would face another additional year's delay in selling their property. Several willing sellers have already waited close to two years to sell their properties. It's simply a breach of trust in their government to make this wait. Losing any of the standalone high-value properties on Marco to a pause would be an irreplaceable loss. I thank you again for your time and your diligence in crafting this budget and wish you the best in making your decisions moving forward. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Joe Alger. He'll be followed by Mary Alger. MR. ALGER: Thanks very much for your hard work, you guys. I appreciate everything you've done in working for us. I don't even pretend to know what the heck this is all about. I September 21, 2023 Page 21 ran a small trucking company, 107 people, and I put together budgets but nothing like this. So I can tell you -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: You must have done something right. You're retired in Naples, right? MR. ALGER: Yes, I am, but I won't be able to afford it for long if we keep this up. So I will say that we just got nailed with a 98 percent increase in our insurance for a small condo; 98 percent. And then yesterday they canceled my homeowners insurance, so -- and I got a feeling that's probably going to go up. I know it's not going to be less. So I can tell you right now that I'm being strapped. I'm strapped. And, you know, I'm all about -- I understand you've got a budget, but you know what, you guys were elected to hold that number. And I don't know what you're going to have to do. I guess, you know, if you hired me, I'd go through here. I'd know where to cut. I did it in the trucking. I had to make hard cuts. I had to do it and wasn't happy and people weren't happy with me, but we continued. We're a very successful company, and -- that's why they fired me. But, no, they didn't fire me; they got rid of me. But, anyway, I can only say that you're -- you know, I appreciate what you've got to do, but you've got to do it, and I know you will. You've stood up for us before. You've done the job. You guys have all really come forward, and I really appreciate each and every one of you. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Mary Alger. She'll be followed by Carson McEachern. MS. ALGER: Hello. Mary Alger, Marco Island, hopefully for a long time, but I don't know. I'm just going to repeat what I had written to all of you. I'm just September 21, 2023 Page 22 going to read that to share. And my topic was the forgotten Americans. Donald J. Trump is endeared by countless Americas because he represented the forgotten Americans. He saw and continues to see that those that labored, fought and died and built their lives around responsibility and sacrificially providing for their families at the very souls that government is attacking and destroying. Every tax increase means that the family and the individual suffers. It means more time away from their children, requiring more hours worked, and/or both parents having to enter the workforce. All of this and more just to keep up with the government taxing bodies who think nothing of increasing their bloated budgets. A family budget cannot exist on increased spending. It must adopt a budget of cutting to pay existing bills. If a family or individual goes into debt that it cannot pay, criminal charges and restitution would be levied. Does government not understand that they earn no money? They only take from someone and give it to another. This is nothing more than legalized theft, and it is above -- if it is above basic constitutionally necessary services. Please resort to a zero-based budget and hold the line on every increase. Cut every job that has been added which, besides a salary, incurs a pension, insurance, and office or office support. It goes on and on. You all pledged -- well, almost all -- no increase in taxes, period. Roll back the millage rate and help every struggling taxpayer. Gas prices skyrocketing, insurance rates and inflation on food and goods alone are putting most Collier County taxpayers in dire situations. Thank you for your service to our county. Help us to continue to be residents of Collier County. Let us not become a county of only coastal elites and those in government-assisted affordable September 21, 2023 Page 23 housing, eliminating the forgotten Americans. I thank you very much for your great work and diligence and on all that you do. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Carson McEachern. He'll be followed by Manny Touron. MR. McEACHERN: Good afternoon. My name is Carson McEachern. I've been a resident of Collier County since 1978 due to my friend, Dudley Goodlette, in law school, couldn't stop talking about the beauty of Naples. My wife and I have raised five children here, and we have two grandchildren living here. Until retirement, I was a practicing attorney in Collier County. I was board certified in real estate and also board certified in wills, trusts, and estates. I come tonight in my individual capacity as a person who has voted in 2002, 2006, and 2020, each time in favor of the referendum to establish Conservation Collier with a .25 mill ad valorem tax for a period not to exceed 10 years in the latest referendum. These referendums were first supported by 60 percent of the voters, then 82 percent, and lastly, 76 percent. In the 2020 referendum, the ballot read: Shall Collier County re-establish the levy of a .25 mill ad valorem tax for 10 years for the purpose of continuing to acquire, preserve, and manage environmentally sensitive lands, et cetera, in perpetuity, and that was a question. Wikipedia says a referendum is a direct vote by the electorate on a proposal, law, or political issue, end quote. The use of referendum is a procedure by which an electorate directs a governing body to act. The wording in the result of the -- to act, excuse me. The wording in the resulting Board of County Commissioners enactment of Resolution No. 2020-22 has September 21, 2023 Page 24 created some confusion as it speaks to a levy of up to .25 mill ad valorem for 20 -- for 10 years; however, the 2020 referendum ballot is very clear in its text which says, quote, shall Collier County re-establish the levy of a .25 mill ad valorem tax for 10 years, et cetera. After three overwhelming referendums, I don't know how much clearer the electorate can make it that they authorize a .25 mill ad valorem tax. This is not a discretionary budget item because of the referendum. I believe that you have a moral, ethical, and political duty to honor the wishes of the electorate to continue the funding at the .25 ad valorem tax as authorized by the electorate in 2020 to continue the work of Conservation Collier. Thank you for the opportunity to speak before you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Manny Touron. He'll be followed by Monica Rawn. MR. TOURON: Good evening, Commissioners. My name is Manny Touron. I have been part of the Immokalee community for over 30 years as school administrator and as a soccer coach. I am passionate about helping the children of that community attain success through education, which is why members, to be in our soccer club, requires a certain grade point average. Our program has grown from under 100 children to over 500 children in the past four years. We have programs almost year-round, and we compete with other sports such as football, cheerleading, and lacrosse for practice fields and games. Documentation of the overuse of the fields is available at the Parks and Rec Master Plan. Also in the Parks and Recreational Master Plan, it was noted as far back as 2011 that the current multipurpose fields in Immokalee needed to be renovated and additional fields needed to be found. September 21, 2023 Page 25 Ten years later, in 2021, the multipurpose fields in Immokalee finally made it to the top of the list, not only because the community raised its voice but because priorities in the master plan ahead of it had been completed, along with a few others like pickleball in East Naples. In 2021, PARAB recommended that the fields at the Immokalee sports complex be renovated and, at the same time, additional fields and land be identified and acquired. The commissioners were petitioned, and they supported it. There was a flurry of activity for a few months looking for land, but now it seems to be on the back burner, and the field replacement project has grown in scope significantly, and so has the price tag. Yesterday at the Parks and Rec Advisory Board meeting, it was confirmed that the multipurpose fields that had been in planning for two years will not be built. There were no alternatives offered. In fact, a person on the advisory board said, I wish there was something that we could do. Well, perhaps PARAB has no authority to make this happen but, gentlemen, perhaps you do. For 30 years, I've heard the residents in Immokalee say that they feel as though they are treated as second-class citizens. The fact that the County Commission is considering cuts in capital budgets that would impact the project on which they have voiced their opinion just confirms their opinion. I get that an opportunity like pickleball, sports tourism was prioritized over the Immokalee fields is good for the county and the region. Now East Naples and Paradise Coast are up and running. Why aren't those monies being used to fund a project that has been in the county master plan for 13 years? Your constituents in Immokalee are farmworkers, construction workers, hospitality workers, and so much more. Immokalee supports Collier County tourism with their backs, and now it's time to share some of the gain with them. September 21, 2023 Page 26 I know my time is up. I had another paragraph, but I think I made my point. I thank you for your time, and I hope you've listened to our needs. Thank you so much. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Monica Rawn. She'll be followed by Patricia Forkan. MS. RAWN: Good evening. I'm a 20-year -- MR. MILLER: Can you pull the mic down in front of your mouth there, please. MS. RAWN: Sorry. I'm a 20-year full-time resident of Collier County. We have a beautiful county. My concern tonight is that inflation is out of control, and I see no end in sight to the spiral, as was described earlier. Gasoline prices are double what they were in 2020. My automobile insurance, even after shopping carriers, has increased another 20 percent this year. My homeowner insurance carrier dropped, apparently, the state of Florida, and I had to eliminate coverages in order to be able to find insurance that I could afford. My electric budget plan has increased more than 50 percent in the past 18 months. Food prices are stabilizing, but they've still risen significantly. I don't envy your jobs in trying to figure out where monies can be found to save in this current budget. Perhaps some organizations, if they need additional funding to do good works in the county, could do some fundraising outside of the tax -- taxes being paid. I do appreciate your great work in trying to reign in the government scope and cost, and that's all that I really have to add. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Patricia Forkan. She'll be followed by Sharon Lynn. MS. FORKAN: Good evening. I'm Patricia Forkan. My September 21, 2023 Page 27 husband and I have been full-time residents since 2010, and we've had property in North Naples since 1998. So we've been here a long time. One of the reasons we came here is the beauty. We came back after purchasing our place in Lely and discovered all kinds of things had been knocked down and gone. We thought we were going into an area that was going to be very green. So I got very interested in things like Conservation Collier, and I'm here to testify to say we should keep it intact and fully funded, as others have said, as the voters have spoken over many years. The funds need to be built up, because as the prices of the properties go up, how can we buy it if we aren't keeping up with the property prices? And we need to get more environmentally sensitive lands. I read every day about things having to do with lands that have been destroyed, and we have floods and lots of other horrible things that are going on these days, but we need to protect native habitats for citizens to enjoy. It's even -- cutting the rates, for example, does not make sense. It will cripple an already very modest program. If you look at the cost of this program compared to a lot of the others that I've seen, some of the ones in upper East Naples with the big parks and all of that and the big places where people are going to come and spend money, that's fine, but -- everyone knows you're sensitive about raising taxes. I worked in Washington a long time, so long ago I remember a senator from New York complaining about how people were dipping into the Social Security program and it was going to go out; it was going to be wrecked. And this happens a lot, dipping into things. And so I think keeping it at the .25 mill is where it should stay. As property values go up, so do the taxes. The voters understand September 21, 2023 Page 28 that when they voted for this. We know that increased tax money, especially for this program, I'm going to be taxed more because it's going to buy more land. So I want to agree with a few of the folks ahead of me that we spent -- I spent a lot of time with some folks. What about this .25? Can we -- is it up to? Is it no more than? And the referendum that -- is pretty clear; it's a levy of .25. So my first reaction is -- was can you guys monkey around with that? I hope not. And so my last sentence is, if you gut this money this year with the intention of restoring it next year, why is it going to be easier to raise taxes next year? Just leave it as it is. You don't have to deal with that. So thank you very much for your attention. I appreciate that. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you. MS. FORKAN: I know this is tough deal. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am. MS. FORKAN: That's Pat Monahan, by the way. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, Pat [sic]. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Sharon Lynn. She'll be followed by Susan Calkins. MS. LYNN: I'm going to keep this very short. I've never spoken at one of these meetings before, but I never felt as strongly as I do about supporting Conservation Collier. When the land is gone, it's gone. You can't bring it back. It's so important to keep and preserve land for all the various reasons that everyone has already said, and I'm not going to go into that again. But I just feel it the voters want this, and they seem to overwhelming do -- I have been paying taxes in Collier County for over 20 years, and I support Conservation Collier. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Susan Calkins. She'll be September 21, 2023 Page 29 followed by John Meo. MS. CALKINS: Good evening. Thank you for allowing us to voice our opinions and concerns on this. And I have lived in this county for well over 20 years and have been coming here since 1974. So I've seen, needless to say, a lot of changes. But one of the things, when we first moved here, was -- it was 2002 when we moved here full time, and two-thirds of the Collier County voters voted for Conservation Collier at .25 mill. In 2'13, the Commissioners decided that it was time to put the program on hold, given issues in the economy at that time. So the Collier County Land Acquisition Advisory Committee was not disbanded. It continued. And when things improved, commissioners decided to ask voters via the 2020 referendum if they wanted to reinstate that .25 mill, 25 cents per 1,000 assessed property values. And as you heard before, almost 77 percent of voters said yes. And the voters said yes knowing -- I don't think people are that stupid. They know that, you know, sometimes they'll pay more, sometimes they'll pay less. They didn't vote, you know, 77 percent for a sports park -- they voted -- which, by the way, is over budget and not finished and costing us a lot. They did vote for that land. And as you heard from us via, you know, emails, et cetera, there is tremendous value in making sure that we acquire environmentally sensitive lands. People are talking about, you know, insurance being canceled, flood insurance. I mean, a lot of that is tied right up with the fact that as we pave over paradise, quote-unquote, we're causing ourselves more problems. In the long run, we're going to pay for that. In the short run, maybe you're going to save some money. In the long run, we're not. So I think, please, keep this program where voters want it. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is John Meo, and he will be September 21, 2023 Page 30 followed by Heather Curtis. John has been ceded three additional minutes from Rae Ann Burton, who is sitting right there. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Mr. Meo, I just want to ask Mr. Miller a question first. Is there anything that keeps us from going to the folks that are on Zoom and maybe picking off four or five of those and mix it up a little bit, so -- you know, I don't think that they always have to be at the end and wait for hours. MR. MILLER: It's your prerogative. We have just done it that way, but if you want to start -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: How many do you have that are on -- dialed in? MR. MILLER: Last count it was 15. Let me bring that up here, sir. I've got many screens here. Give me just a second. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. Let's go with Mr. Meo, and then we'll go with the nice lady that's at the other podium here, ma'am, and then let's queue up a few people that might have dialed in to sort of mix it up a little bit so they're not just sort of waiting there. MR. MILLER: Sounds good. We'll do that, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. Mr. Meo, sir. MR. MEO: Good evening, Commissioners. John Meo. You know, this is a topic that I wanted to educate myself on a little bit, probably not nearly as well educated as you are on it. But I went to Conservation Collier, and I picked some items out of their website. And it looks like -- and I may be incorrect in this. It looks like in 2022, there were 43 properties purchased and closed on. And I further went through what was purchased and closed on. I was looking for something from 2023, and I did find that, I'd say, approximately a million dollars in February 28th of 2023 was purchased. So I want to lay the groundwork here first. I'm not here September 21, 2023 Page 31 speaking against conservation -- I'm a conservative. The root word of conservation is conservative -- but I do want to bring this point out. Two weeks ago, or whenever the first discussion about Collier County came -- Conservation Collier came up, I think it was Mr. Finn that brought up the point that right now Conservation Collier has $25 million, I think, in the bank, and he mentioned that they're getting 4 percent. Four percent on 25 million is a million dollars in interest per year. So I looked at what was purchased and closed on in '22, and I know '23 isn't over, but the sum total in '22 was 4 million 686 dollars and some odd change. So as someone that's in the financial services business, I look at it and I say, okay, well, you bought $5 million worth of property in '22, you've got $25 million in the bank. You're earning 4 percent interest on it. That's a million. I think as an agency or as an entity, you have plenty of money to purchase future properties. And at this point in our economic cycle, I don't think -- and, again, I don't think anybody here would -- may be seen as opposing Conservation Collier. I'm not opposing it at all. But if you have the ability to relieve the taxpayers by saying this year we're not going to charge that .25, whatever that mill rate is, and give the tax break -- taxpayers a break. Well -- so the reason for that would be simply this: I mean, we talk about conservation -- and you guys are more expert than I am, but my understanding is that 67 percent of Collier is already not buildable; am I correct in that? It's somewhere. Commissioners, am I correct in that? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: You just talk. We don't -- MR. MEO: Okay. You're not going to answer. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It's not Q and A. MR. MEO: Okay. Well, the point I'm making is we already September 21, 2023 Page 32 have a very conservation-minded community here, and we've got $25 million in the bank to purchase additional property. They're earning 4 percent. They spent $5 million or around that in '22 and nowhere near that right now in '23, so there's ample assets to purchase if those properties come up, what's already there. And I come from the standpoint of the most valuable asset is us, the people of Collier County. So I did some statistical information. According to the CPI -- and, of course, the CPI is not the greatest indicator of inflation, but it has a -- it's almost at 5 percent. And not to repeat -- and I'm mindful of when you said, Commissioner. I'm not repeating what some other people said, but we all know that homeowners insurance doubled in many instances. It's ridiculous. So you've got CPI at 5. You've got homeowners insurance doubling. You've got a school board that levied another 10 percent tax on the residents of Collier County. And my basic strategy here is to allow the people of Collier County, the taxpayers -- and I think as some speakers said, there's 75 percent of them voted for it, and I agree, and I'm for that as well. But if there's an option for you to exercise as commissioners to say, you know what, we're going to take a break. We're going to take -- we're going to take a step back here. We can do it. We're not doing away with it. We're not eliminating that. We're just going to say for this year, under the enormous economic pressure that a lot of us are facing, not maybe me personally, but a lot of residents in this community are facing, let's take a step back and let's let it go. It's not that they're down to their last 10 cents, 25 -- at the risk of repeating myself, they've got $25 million in the bank earning $1 million a year at a fixed rate of interest, according to Mr. Finn. So they have ample assets to purchase if they want to over the next year. We are already at -- what are we in? September, we're in September 21, 2023 Page 33 October. So we're coming to the close of this year. And I know you guys work on a fiscal year, but based on what happened in '22, you bought $5 million worth of property. So you can buy five times the amount of property with just what they have in the bank now without raising one cent. So that's what I'd like to bring to your attention. I really wish you would consider that, because it is the taxpayers that are good, hardworking people, and they need some break from somewhere. They didn't get the break from the school board. They're not getting the break from the fire and whatever that department is. I mean, every department seems to need a raise. And they're certainly not getting a break from the federal government. So we're counting you on. You guys got the -- you guys got your hand on the wheel. We're counting on you to hold the -- you know, hold it down. Thank you very much. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Chairman, can I make a -- just a real quick comment -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- concerning what was just said. I just want the public to understand, 74 percent of Collier County is under public ownership. It sounds like a lot. Dade County, which is essentially the same size as Collier County, has 74 percent of their land mass also in public ownership. I only point that out because that number sounds like a lot. Dade County has, what, four million people in it, but they have the same percentage of conservation lands as we do, and their projection is to have a whole lot more, but they have a tremendously larger population even with that number. So to think that we don't have enough land for development, perhaps we have more than enough. We, perhaps, have too much. So I wanted to point that out. September 21, 2023 Page 34 And then, second, we do have $25 million in that account which is set aside for long-term maintenance because that's one of the obligations we have. So I just wanted to -- I know these two issues may come up, and I just wanted to let the audience know, we understand the percentage of land ownership in Collier County. It sounds like a lot. It's the same percentage as Dade County, just as a comparison. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Ma'am. MR. MILLER: If you'll allow me, Mr. Chair, I want to queue the people up on Zoom. Next speaker here in the room is Heather Curtis. She'll be followed on Zoom by Arthur Oslund and then Barry Hoey. Ms. Curtis, you have three minutes. MS. CURTIS: Thank you. Good evening, County Commissioners. Thank you for the time -- your time this evening, and a special thank you to Mr. LoCastro and Mr. Hall for acknowledging the email I sent last week regarding Conservation Collier, a program I feel especially passionate about after becoming a first-time homeowner here in 2021. I recently had the opportunity to study several critically endangered habitats for the University of Florida's master naturalist program. I work in the hospitality field, and sharing knowledge about the environment, flora and fauna, many of the things that attract people specifically to Southwest Florida, is part of my day-to-day job. I was thrilled for the opportunity to deep dive into what truly makes Collier County so special. I personally love sharing Otter Mound Preserve with nature enthusiasts who visit Marco Island. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Ma'am, can you just slow down a little bit, because Terri's head's about to explode. I can feel it from September 21, 2023 Page 35 here, okay. I can feel the negative vibes right now. MS. CURTIS: Show me a Collier County resident who doesn't love driving through the sunflower fields at Pepper Ranch Preserve in the fall. As it turns out, many areas that have been purchased and maintained with funds from Conservation Collier are, indeed, what keeps Collier from becoming the next Dade County. And if you read anything on the Nextdoor App, becoming Miami is, collectively, everyone's biggest nightmare. I think everyone here knows that tourism funds this state. Without it, we are doomed. Vacationers do not visit Naples for more strip malls, more gated communities, or more unoccupied storefronts. They come here to see things that they can't get at home, and for many people, that is nature in its purist form, from a swamp walk at the Caracara Preserve or a rare bird sighting to complete a birder's lifetime list. That said, this program is important for our residents who live here who are begging for less development and more preserving. As a taxpayer in this county, I would ask the commissioners to listen to the will of the people. This has been overwhelming approved by the actual people funding it, taxpayers, 77 percent of them in 2020, the last time it was up for a vote. We should be actively adding to the collection of preserves, not talking about cutting their budget. I understand that inflation and millage rates are affecting how these numbers shake out; however, if we do not prioritize this program with full funding, if we do stand up and say, yes, these native and endangered habitats are important, and yes, their resident animals are receiving [sic], we really will just become another Miami in a few years. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker will be on Zoom. Your September 21, 2023 Page 36 next two speakers will be on Zoom. Arthur Oslund and then Barry Hoey. Arthur, you're being prompted to unmute yourself. If you'll do that at this time. And, Arthur, are you there? You're being asked to unmute yourself. All right. Arthur just went away. Let's try Barry Hoey. Barry, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do that at this time. And I see you there. MR. HOEY: Hi, there. MR. MILLER: Yeah, you have three minutes, sir. MR. HOEY: All right. Thank you. Firstly, thanks for giving us the opportunity to speak. I've lived here in Collier County for 10 years -- 10 years, and the last few years have been different. You have had a lot of challenges. We see a lot of things happening. I see -- I work in real estate, and I see a lot of people hurting. You know, we have increases going on everywhere. I'm a conservative, and I'm not against any conservative body or -- like that, but looking at the percentage of land in Collier County under public ownership, if it is, in fact, 77, that is a lot. And I do know that under Agenda 2030, if the new world order have their way, that number will be a lot higher, because they really want to get rid of us. You know, we all work hard here in Collier County. It's a great place. We have a lot of people moving here for different reasons. And we don't want to see taxes going up. Again, I see a lot of people hurting, and I -- you have -- you guys have done a wonderful job, and I hope that you keep up the good work, keep our taxes down, and keep Collier County a great place to live. Thank you. Bye now. MR. MILLER: All right. We're going to go to another speaker on Zoom and then come back to speakers here in the room. Your next speaker will be Brittany Patterson-Weber on Zoom, September 21, 2023 Page 37 and then she'll be followed here in the room by Richard Grant. Ms. Weber, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do that at this time. Watching for her. Ms. Weber, Patterson-Weber, Brittany Patterson-Weber. (No response.) MR. MILLER: All right. Let's go ahead and go to Mr. Grant, and then we'll follow him up here in the room with Brittany Piersma. MR. GRANT: Good evening, Commissioner. I'm Dick Grant, Richard Grant. Like Mr. McEachern, I'm an attorney. I've been here for very long time. I can't believe how long I've been here. One year less than him, 1979. It's amazing how time has flown. I'm here not representing any group, but I want to give you a quick background and then just tell you briefly why I think you should continue the Conservation Collier program at the level that it was voted on. I was a part of the group of people that first came up with the idea, not that we were unique, for Conservation Collier. I've been a member of every group that organized a political action committee to get it on the ballot and then to promote the voters supporting it. It took money raising to do that, to get the word out. As you well know, it passed three times with very high percentages, including three years ago in 2020. The people want it. I don't know of any other program that Collier County has in its budget where the voters actually in a referendum vote on something and say we want it, okay. And it's pretty unique. We had a -- we have a sales tax surtax that the voters voted on. That's it. So I don't know how much more you need to hear from the voters to say they want it. It's been pretty overwhelming tonight, and that's why I'm not going to say a whole lot, because I don't think it's necessary. I think it's more important that people speak. September 21, 2023 Page 38 And I don't think I have a whole lot more to say. I hope you will continue to support it. It's a very unique program. Other counties have it. The state has a similar program. We've had it. We let it lapse for a while. It was probably the right thing at the time. Now it's back on. It doesn't go on forever. It's a 10-year program, as I recall, and it's not self-renewing. It would have to be approved again. So I would ask you to continue funding Conservation Collier at the level that it's been funded. I appreciate there are people that are hurting economically. But it's a wonderful program. It's part of what makes this county unique. It's part of why people come here. It's part of, frankly, why I think it helps our property values go up, and maybe that's a bad thing when you're taxing people. But it is what's unique. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. GRANT: I appreciate your job. I know it's not easy. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Brittany Piersma. She'll be followed by Jean McCallam. MS. PIERSMA: Hi, Brittany Piersma. I'm the field biologist for Audubon Western Everglades. Thank you, Commissioners, for the opportunity to speak tonight. It is my job to inform the Audubon Western Everglades staff and our board about the wildlife conditions and science that should drive public policies like land conservation. We have now reached 243 acres of surveyed gopher tortoise habitat, and we manage and monitor around 400 burrowing owl sites year-round. Additionally, we survey shore birds, wading birds, and their surrounding environment. As undeveloped properties get built up, the efforts of September 21, 2023 Page 39 Conservation Collier are more important than ever. Once developed, it's extremely difficult and more expensive to turn back the clock. Collier County wildlife depend on preserving native habitat. We cannot wait or pause this work. Threatened and endangered species like burrowing owls, gopher tortoises, Indigo snakes, and panthers are already struggling. Conservation Collier was the one massive piece of hope that I have instilled in every single citizen that I come across on not only Marco Island but throughout all of Collier County. To protect wildlife, we must invest in the conservation of ecologically valuable land. This benefits the citizens as a whole, but it also benefits property owners that have highly valued native landscapes. We need a balance of economy and natural resources. I urge you to continue supporting Conservation Collier fully and not to reduce any funding. This is one of the most important programs that we have in Collier County that benefits everyone. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Jean McCallam. She'll be followed by William Poteet. MS. McCALLAM: Hi. I've been in Collier County since 1981. I came here because of the wonderful environment, and I've been working in the conservation industry since then for National Audubon, for Florida Fish and Wildlife, and for Nature Conservancy. I'm going to talk money, though my passion is for the land. The 25 -- the .25 mill for Conservation Collier is higher, not exponentially, but incrementally, and this is based on property taxes. Well, if property taxes are going up because property values are going up, then property is going to cost more. So these two items are actually very closely connected. As property values go up, it's going to cost more to buy land. So purchasing property is going to cost Conservation Collier more, so they need the full funding in order September 21, 2023 Page 40 to keep up with costs. So I also have been a land manager, and I can tell you that land management isn't free. It requires money to keep these properties in good shape, and so that also is increasing, just like everything else, so that also needs funding. So, please, the people of Collier County have spoken, and I hope you listen to us. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is William Poteet, and then we'll go back to Zoom for Diane Myers and then Jason Lauritsen. MR. POTEET: Good evening, Commissioners. I've been a resident of Collier County since 1972. The Commission, in 2006, set precedent by requiring another referendum for Conservation Collier to get clarity from the voters. The Commission would not act without the referendum. For those who don't remember, there was a question on whether the original referendum put a cap on the exact amount of money that could be raised by the Commission issuing bonds. And the 2006 commission was committed to follow the will of the people to the exact terms of the original referendum language. Now, the 2006 commission could have legally made a decision on their own of what amount they wanted to make the cap, but they did not. The result was the second Conservation Collier referendum, and the voters clarified the language on what they had originally passed. Today, the Commission is positioning itself to decide whether to reduce the amount of millage for Conservation Collier. Now, the reasons I have heard from this commission, lower taxes, better funding for critical community needs like attainable housing, are all very reasonable and maybe in the best interest of the community; however, should this commission vote to reduce the millage rate of Conservation Collier, you are essentially -- you are essentially setting September 21, 2023 Page 41 a precedent that the will of the voters is secondary to the will of the commissioners. Whether it is to keep the millage as stated in the 2020 referendum or lower the millage, this is your decision. I personally would not go against the will of the voters. They were very clear in their messaging. Three times the voters said yes to taxing themselves by 2.5 [sic] mills. The last two votes were supermajorities. And in most political circles, that is called a mandate of the people. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker will be on Zoom, Diane Myers, and she will be followed on Zoom by Jason Lauritsen. Ms. Myers, you should be getting prompted to unmute yourself. Yeah, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, Ms. Myers, if you'll do so at this time. I'm seeming to have a lot of people not unmute for me. Let's try Jason Lauritsen. Jason, you're being prompted -- or you will be prompted shortly here to unmute yourself, if you'll do so at this time. I see you have, sir. You have three minutes. MR. LAURITSEN: Great. Thank you so much for taking public comment. My name is Jason Lauritsen, speaking on behalf of the Florida Wildlife Corridor Foundation. We are a non-profit conservation organization that works on protecting a statewide network of connected lands vital to supporting our wildlife populations and the quality of life and local economies of all Floridians. We would urge support for retaining a millage rate level at .25 for Conservation Collier. I've had the pleasure of living and working here in Collier County for 17 years, and I continue to be proud of the example Collier County has set for local conservation leadership as exercised through Conservation Collier and its land acquisition program. And, Commissioners, I've heard you voice support for the September 21, 2023 Page 42 Conservation Collier program, and I'm grateful for that past support that you've given. Collier County is a gem, and it supports world-class wild places still connected by working landscapes. The pace of growth and the accompanying land conversion presents a state of urgency for numerous gaps in habitat connectivity, and Conservation Collier's done yeoman's work wading into some of these difficult gaps that other programs just do not prioritize. An economic study that our organization commissioned two years ago documents what many speakers tonight have emphasized, that land prices will continue to rise. And it just so happens that those gap areas that often follow in expanding edges of development are especially susceptible to increased value. Those are not really the areas that state land acquisition programs focus, but Conservation Collier excels at those. And retaining a function of law by corridor [sic] of Collier County, keeping the Corkscrew Watershed and my beloved Corkscrew Swamp Sanctuary connected to the corridor really depends on being able to solve those gaps. So I would urge you to retain that funding at the current level as an investment that will pay dividends to the people of Collier for future generations, and thank you. MR. MILLER: Next up on Zoom, John Johnson, and then we're going to come back here in the room to Marshall Olson and then Michael -- having trouble with the handwriting -- is it Dwyer? MR. DUEVER: Duever. MR. MILLER: Duever, thank you. Mr. Johnson, you should be being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do that at this time. There you are. Mr. Johnson, you have three minutes. MR. JOHNSON: I would just like to support the fact that the Conservation Collier 25 percent [sic] was voted on by the residents of September 21, 2023 Page 43 Collier County. It was 25 percent. There was no question what the number was. And that any change in that becomes sort of a bait and switch on the part of the commissioners to the voters of Collier County. Thank you. MR. MILLER: All right. Your next speaker is Marshall Olson, and then he'll be followed by Michael Duever. MR. OLSON: Hi. I'm Marshall Olson. I'm a Collier County resident, and I have been working in land management for more than 40 years. I am recently retired. I work with government, private industry, NGOs. And if there's one thing that I've learned in all that time, is that if you want wildlife habitat and all that entails, you need land to protect, restore, and enhance. I'm here today to speak in support of maintaining and fully funding the Conservation Collier budget. This is a very important program that acquires and protects some of the wildlife habitat including streams, wetlands, and green spaces that have not yet been lost. Voters in Collier County have spoken by overwhelmingly approving the Conservation Collier budget three different times, as you've heard a number of times tonight. In your response to my email, Commissioner LoCastro, which I appreciated, you mentioned that you received many emails on this topic but zero concerning libraries, parks, roads, beach restoration, and infrastructure. That's very unfortunate, but on the other hand, it shows how important the Conservation Collier program is to voters. Had to get that in there. That's why it seems so odd to me the Fiscal Year '24 budget is on track for a significant cut. As property values have gone up, so has the budget for Conservation Collier. That aspect was well thought out in the original plan, and as it should be, because it September 21, 2023 Page 44 certainly costs more to acquire and protect conservation lands as property values rise. As you've already heard many facts why Conservation Collier's important, and you probably agree with them, I won't waste your time on repetition. What I would like to state is that if your minds are mostly made up to reduce Conservation Collier budget to a lower mill rate or even a flat rate, then let that be determined through negotiation with interested parties. Perhaps a flat rate of -- at the Fiscal Year '23 level of 30 million for a period of three years so it might be a compromise that most can live with. For your consideration. Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Michael Duever. He'll be followed by Gaylene Vastoro -- Vasaturo, excuse me. MR. DUEVER: Commissioners, I'm a professional biologist. I grew up in Chicago. And one of the things about growing up in Chicago was that they have what they call forest preserves there. And I was very, very fortunate that it was close enough that I could ride my bike to those places and spend a lot of time there and just beginning -- learning to enjoy and appreciate nature out there. In 1973, I came to Collier County. I live in the rural part of the county out near Immokalee, and it was pretty wild out there when I got there in '73. It's changed a lot since then, over the years, and not quite as wild as it used to be. And one of the things that is really important is that things like Collier -- Conservation Collier exist. And, yes, there's a lot of conservation lands in Collier County, but -- and my wife and I go out and spend a lot of time out in those areas, but we also, probably more frequently, go out to Conservation Collier sites. They're close by, they're easy to get to and, if I was a kid, I could ride my bike to them in a lot of cases. So they're September 21, 2023 Page 45 accessible. They're more -- well, we've got these big conservation areas out there. They're wonderful, and I'm grateful they're there. But having Conservation Collier, you've got all these little islands of nature that show you a bit of what Collier County was like before it developed as much as it has. And it's accessible to more of the people in Collier County than a lot of the places -- or more easily accessible than a lot of these big chunks of land that we've got out there. So I think Conservation Collier actually fills a hole in the needs of people in this county, and they're very, very valuable. And they're not going to get cheaper, and in some cases, we're going to run into maybe a chunk of land that's going to cost a lot of money, more than a million dollars or that. It may cost 10, $15 million to get what you want. And then having that kind of money in the budget will allow you to be able to take advantage of an opportunity like that. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Gaylene Vasaturo, and she will be followed by Keith Laakkonen. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Just for planning purposes, we're going to take a break at 6:45, and then we'll come back at 7:00 p.m. So we'll take as many speakers as we can until 6:45, okay, Mr. Miller? MR. MILLER: Yes. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Ma'am, the floor is yours. MS. VASATURO: Good evening, Commissioners. I'm Gaylene Vasaturo. I'm here to ask that you fully fund Conservation Collier. Conservation Collier acquires land to protect our water quality, water resources, and wildlife habitat and to provide the public much-wanted and, as you heard, needed public space. And, as you know, the public -- the program can acquire and September 21, 2023 Page 46 combine parcels in multi-parcel area which then -- so that then you can protect flowways and wildlife corridors and can also provide protection from -- flood protection from major storms. Repeat a little bit, perhaps, but residents considered Conservation Collier so important that they voted to raise -- voted three different times to raise taxes .25 mill, to raise their taxes 2.5 [sic] mill to fund Conservation Collier. And having voted for it three times, it's safe to say they understood what they were voting for. It was obvious that as property values increase, the amount you pay to fund Conservation Collier is also going to increase, and I think you've heard that from a number of folks tonight, but there's voters out there you haven't perhaps heard from, but it's obvious that's what we wanted. And in 2020 land prices were significantly increasing, and voters wanted Conservation Collier to be able to keep up with the pace to acquire -- to keep up with the rising land prices. Now you're considering reducing the millage rate for Conservation Collier to .15, reducing its 2024 funding to 20 million. Now, that is a 42 percent cut from the allotted amount that would come in at its current 2.5 [sic] mill. And it's a significant reduction from previous years' funding. And once you reduce the millage rate, any attempt to raise the millage rate in the future will be a tax increase, and most of you have said you would never consider a tax increase. So what you're considering or thinking about doing today will be a permanent cut, potentially handcuffing future board members that come after you. Please consider the long-term impacts. Conservation Collier needs to accumulate funds so that it can afford to buy critical parcels that become available and that may be expensive, high value, or large, and we know there are parcels out September 21, 2023 Page 47 there that that may happen with. So if you decide to reduce the 2024 funding for Conservation Collier, please find a way to do it without -- that won't affect future years. Please do not reduce the millage rate. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Keith Laakkonen. He'll be followed by Dan Cook. MR. LAAKKONEN: Good evening, esteemed commissioners. My name is Keith Laakkonen. I'm with the National Audubon Society, and I'm director of Corkscrew Swamp Sanctuary. I am also a trustee for the CREW trust. That's the Corkscrew Regional Ecosystem Watershed. Corkscrew Swamp Sanctuary was founded in 1954 to protect the largest old growth cypress forest in the world right here in Collier County. The sanctuary has grown to over 13,400 acres and supports not only cypress forest but wetland, pine flatwoods, and healthy populations to charismatic species such as wading birds, black bears, and the iconic Florida panther. Corkscrew Swamp Sanctuary is private property; however, the State of Florida, Lee County, and Collier County have spent millions of dollars to help protect this watershed. It is very important that these lands have been protected, and Conservation Collier's been a huge partner in this effort. These lands are often acquired, and it's really important that Conservation Collier can step in, because they're not often eligible for state or federal conservation. And as these lands are acquired, they actually serve as connectors and corridors for these wildlife areas so that you have connections so that wildlife populations are able to exist. I also wanted to point out how important the "boots on the ground" conservation work of Conservation Collier is for managing exotic invasive species to conducting prescribed fires that reduce the odds of large damaging wildfires in Collier County, as we saw this September 21, 2023 Page 48 past spring. Conservation Collier is a vital partner to Corkscrew Swamp Sanctuary, and we collaborate regularly with them on their conservation work. The watershed is crucial to groundwater recharge, floodwater storage, and wildlife, but it's not just about wildlife and ecosystems. Conserved lands, healthy water, and vibrant wildlife populations are important to our economy. Thousands of people visit Collier County every year -- visit these preserves, and over 100,000 people visit Corkscrew Swamp Sanctuary every single year. Continued investments in programs like Conservation Collier will help protect Collier County, support its economy, and reduce the impacts from red tides and damaging harmful algal blooms. We thank you for your continued support for Conservation Collier. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Dan Cook, and then we're going to go back to Zoom to George Sanchez on Zoom and then Keith Flaugh. MR. COOK: Hi. Good evening, Commissioners. Dan Cook, for the record, vice chair of the Collier County Republican Party. I'm not sure I understand why -- this doesn't seem to me like this is about Conservation Collier. I think a couple speakers have pointed out that emails weren't necessarily sent regarding some of the other different programs that you guys are considering. So I made a couple notes. I was looking at the change from last year's adopted budget to today's tentative budget hearing, and there's a lot of different, I guess, entities that are requesting a larger budget. Some of those include Parks and Recreation sea turtle monitoring are asking for 56 percent budget increase. The Ochopee Fire Control District is asking for a 99 percent budget increase. The Conservation Collier land acquisition is asking for a 31 percent September 21, 2023 Page 49 increase. The TDC beach park facilities is asking for a 72 percent increase. Tourism promotion is asking for a 19 percent increase. The TDC beach renourishment is actually one of the few that's asking for less money. And I'll also second the comments by Tim Guerrette about the constitutional officers. I see that the Sheriff's Department and the Property Appraiser are only asking for a 7 percent budget increase; whereas, the Tax Collector, Clerk of Courts, and Supervisor of Elections are asking for a 21 percent budget increase. So I think it's -- I think it would be fair to maybe pose the question, why are certain entities going to be getting such a large budget increase when others are not? I'm not sure that I have that answer. Hopefully you guys have the answer. I'm not sure if there's a way to make that more even and more fair. So I'll just leave it at that. I hope that there's a way to lower the taxes. As some of the other speakers mentioned, taxpayers right now, we're feeling it from the federal government, the inflation tax, federal income tax, social security taxes. We've got taxes every time we purchase things on sales taxes. We've got communication taxes, gas taxes. And they might not seem like a lot individually, but when you add them all up, citizens who have thin margins, we have to take a look at our personal budgets and make tough cuts, you know. Sometimes it's, do I want to fill up my groceries cart or do I want to pay rent this month? Those are real decisions that citizens have. And so I hope that the county would consider that and consider the taxpayers and do what you're able to do to fairly reduce the tentative budget. So I'll leave it at that. Thank you for your time. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chair, I must be scaring some people off. George dropped off of Zoom. September 21, 2023 Page 50 So let's go to Keith Flaugh on Zoom, and then we'll follow him on Zoom with Linda Rosenthal. Keith, you're being prompted to unmute yourself. I see you've done that. You have three minutes, sir. MR. FLAUGH: Thank you. Good evening, Commissioners. I'm sorry to do this remotely, but I had prior commitments. On behalf of the conservative voters of Collier County, I've said my piece in each of the last two sessions on the budget. Number one, four of you have signed a no tax increase pledge presumably based on your core conservative values for less government and more efficient government. As fellow conservatives, we sincerely hope you have the courage and character to honor that pledge. Under Florida law, this means the rolled-back rates on average, which means in some cases like Conservation Collier, which can take an increased cut for now and not destroy the program. Your job as commissioners is to set the policy and provide the leadership, not get mired down in micromanaging. Be aggressive and commit to the really hard work of zero-based budgeting, which I've urged repeatedly. A book titled "Smart Leadership" I'm just currently reading and recommend to each of you quotes an annual gallop study, and I quote: 74 percent of U.S. workers admit they are not engaged at work, 64 [sic] percent. The author, Mark Miller, concludes that this is a result of leaders who are not willing to confront and correct the issue. This brings us back to zero-based budgeting, which has to seriously change the employee and management culture through incentives towards productive and efficiency. Additionally, reengineering the work that's being done by just every individual and department. September 21, 2023 Page 51 From the last BCC discussion, it appears you are headed towards a millage -- millage rates that are slightly below, quote, the policy level that was approved last spring. Depending on the final rates, this is about halfway to your pledge. Even if that's what you do, and we sincerely, as conservative residents, hope you don't go down that road, it doesn't mean you have to spend the money. So commit to the zero-based budgeting, figure out how to cut the 73 million bucks. Don't spend all of that money that you are not willing to step up to now, and perhaps you can pass it along to the customers -- or to the voters in the next round. Thanks for your time. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker on Zoom is Linda Rosenthal, and then she'll be followed here in the room by Don Braswell. Linda, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do that at this time. Ms. Rosenthal, you should be being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do that at this time. There you are. Thank you. Linda, you have three minutes. MS. ROSENTHAL: Okay. First time I've been on one of these with you-all; so grateful. I want to thank you for your leadership and in your desire to serve and to do the right thing this evening for the Collier County voters. We do want to know that you are hearing all of us, not just a group of people that have certain criteria for why they're here tonight speaking. We also believe that due to the way our world is going right now all the way down to our county, our city, our local leadership, we are, as voters, are feeling it. We're feeling it in our pocketbooks, and we all have said that. And we do understand that we need to also be concerned with our environment. We know that, but we also have to realize when it comes down to making ends meet and to be able to know that we are September 21, 2023 Page 52 paying for everything that's happening every month in our budgets, we have to go to what is the most important thing at the time, and that has to do with meeting the needs of each of us as family members and as individuals. So there are hard decisions to be made, and we do understand that we all do pay taxes. So we want to use and believe that those that have been put into leadership here tonight will listen, do the right thing, and be able to make the best decision possible for those of us that are here in Collier County. And we're speaking for everybody that lives in this county. I deal with a lot of different types of groups here in volunteering and also in doing other type of service work, so I have seen many different communities that I love to serve with, and they all have need, just like our environment does. So we do ask for your wisdom, and we do ask for you to listen and to hear the voters. Thank you very much for this time. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker here in the room is Dan Braswell, and he'll be followed -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: No, Don, you'll be the last speaker, and then we'll take a break. MR. MILLER: Okay. Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. BRASWELL: Good evening, Commissioners. This is Don Braswell, or as you know me as Mr. "Round To It." Today I'm going to be speaking about the increasing or decreasing of the tax the county charges its residents. We live in inflationary times. I'm a retiree, which means good old Uncle Sam gave me a 3.99 increase to my Social Security, which is pretty useless, obviously, in the world we're at today. That being said, the problem of inflation is not yours, September 21, 2023 Page 53 gentlemen. Not yours. You didn't make it. So you're not to blame, but I am looking for a group effort, a team effort that says we need to take care of those who are in most need. In our county, that really comes down to seniors. Unfortunately, our Collier County School Board doesn't realize that there's a lot of teachers that can't live in this county because the housing's expensive. Those things aren't being considered, and we want to encourage people to come to the county, not drive them away. So as a team member -- and I've had a great experience with all you gentlemen -- please think about what I had to do when I was in the corporate world. I had a good year, the boss gave me a great increase in my salary. Thank you very much. If I didn't make my numbers, I had to live with that. And so when the boss says, by the way, Don, your team is going to have to cut 5 percent across the board, nothing else can -- you know, 5 percent. Oh, and by the way, those requisitions for next year, rip them up. That's the responsibility that I had to live with, and most people in business; it's nothing really new. So I'm thinking or encouraging that mindset to you when we have retirees, new people in the county who are going to now be renters if the -- if these millages go up, which two of them have already gone up, we're going to have landlords increasing the rents, and, you know, it's just going the wrong way. Thank you for the time. You got the drift of what I'm trying to cover. I appreciate your time. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. We will take a break until 7:00 p.m. (A brief recess was had from 6:45 p.m. to 7:00 p.m.) MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: If everybody can take their seats, please. We'd like to get started on time. Everybody please take September 21, 2023 Page 54 your seats. Please take your seats. Thank you. Mr. Miller, who's the next speaker? MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Kate, and I'm sorry, Kate, all I can do is the L. I can't read the rest of your handwriting. So I don't know what your last -- is it Ladella or Laswella? I'm not sure. Kate, are you here in the room? Oh, thank you very much. Kate will be followed by Pamela Cunningham. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sirs, gentlemen, can you please take your seats so we can get started. Thank you. MS. ZICHELLA: Yes, good evening. I've been a resident almost 40 years in Collier County. I support the rolled-back millage, and 74 percent of the land owned by the government is a lot of land. So I hope that you'll do the job and keep your promises. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Pamela Cunningham. She'll be followed by Jeanene Jewett. And Ms. Cunningham's been ceded three additional minutes from Angela Owasta -- Osato. Are you here, Angela? Can you verify? (Raises hand.) MR. MILLER: Thank you so much. She'll have a total of six minutes. DR. CUNNINGHAM: Good evening, Commissioners. My name is Dr. Pamela Cunningham. I would like to start by acknowledging that in the best of times the decisions you have to make tonight are challenging, but we are not in the best of times. Our country, our county, and our families are struggling, and this makes your jobs all the more difficult. We appreciate that you are rolling up your sleeves and looking for true solutions to our county's budget challenges. As I stated in my email to each of you last week, in regard to the budget, and specifically in regard to Conservation Collier, I strongly support a decision to minimize the funds they receive this year to the September 21, 2023 Page 55 lowest possible level. I, as a conservative, love our environment and do what I can to protect it; however, as was discussed at last week's meeting and tonight, Conservation Collier is well in the black and does not need additional funds for this year. In contrast, many Collier families and businesses are not in the black and are struggling with their basic bills. We should not be taking money from them at this time and giving it to Conservation Collier. In the last budget meeting, there were several speakers who implied that if you do not raise taxes, the residents of this county will be significantly affected. I will argue that this is not true and provide you with two additional real-world examples of cuts that this county can make that will result in significant savings but will not significantly alter the lives of Collier residents. Firstly, I often take advantage of the shredding services at our recycling centers. When I pull into one of the six or seven recycling centers in Collier, I am usually the only car at the facility. There are three or four employees sitting waiting to help customers. After I have dealt with my shredding, which usually takes less than two minutes, I go to pull out, and I see the staff going back and sitting down. We do not need so many recycling centers in Collier County, and we certainly do not need as much staff as we have at each center. If you multiply this phenomenon throughout our county, not just in the recycling arena but in county facilities and staff in general, you can see that minimizing these inefficiencies would go a long way to minimizing the burden on the taxpayer. And depending on the rate at which county employees usually resign or quit, the county may be able to accomplish this deletion -- may be able to accomplish the deletion of unnecessary positions through attrition rather than through employee termination. September 21, 2023 Page 56 Another potential area for cuts that I heard addressed at last week's meeting are our public libraries. The point was made that we are now in the technological age, and library services may not be necessary. In full disclosure, I will mention that my family frequents the Collier County libraries often. In fact, our libraries are some of my children's favorite destinations. So I come at this problem as someone who does not want to see libraries cut but who is looking for budget solutions. To make my case for supporting our libraries, I'm going to put on my physician's hat and discuss with you how harmful it is to simple lump this next generation of Americans into the technological age and put them on computers for their educational needs. I have printed off several scientific articles showing the damage that is caused to children, both young children as well as adolescents, who spend a significant amount of time on the screen. The current epidemic of screen time amongst our children is damaging this generation to an extent that sadly may be irreversible. As such, I urge you to continue with our public library system for children to be able to benefit from the actual reading of books which contain knowledge, and to have a quiet place to absorb this knowledge. The same is true for the adults of Collier County. Article 3 of America's Northwest Ordinance of 1787 stressed that -- religion, morality, and knowledge being necessary to good government and to the happiness of mankind. Schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. Our library system is not for simple entertainment. Libraries do not exist, as much as we Americans love our pets, as an extra place to find kittens to adopt. And as much as my children love these, libraries are not simply a place to hold magic shows in the summer. Libraries, especially in this technological age, are a place to September 21, 2023 Page 57 return to true education and learning, which is one of the cornerstones of a free people. Now solutions. My family's library of choice is Orange Blossom library. It is a large facility with a good book selection. We sometimes, however, go to Vanderbilt Beach library, which is only an eight-minute drive away from Orange Blossom library. Vanderbilt Beach library is a much smaller facility, quiet, cozy, with a small but nice book collection. Despite being cozy and sweet, there is nothing at Vanderbilt Beach library that cannot be found at Orange Blossom library. We go there simply for variety. My point here is that Vanderbilt Beach library is a duplication of services, which is only an eight-minute drive from Orange Blossom. I urge you that rather than minimize the quality education that the good books of Collier County provide to our residents, both adults and children alike, that you consider minimizing duplication of services. I don't know exactly what that would look like. Would it mean a complete closure of Vanderbilt Beach branch? Would it simply be moving all programming out of the Vanderbilt Beach and placing it in Orange Blossom? Could staffing be consolidated between the two? These decisions are obviously up to you and your staff, but as someone who adores libraries and knows they have a significant place in maintaining our country's status in the world, I will say that even I am willing to look at this solution as a compromise that will leave the people of Collier County with excellent library services but without duplication of these services. I thank you gentlemen and your staff again for doing the hard work that is required here. There are places where cuts can be made. Please do not let people convince you otherwise. America is not in her roaring 20s. We will work towards and pray for a goal of September 21, 2023 Page 58 returning our country to prosperity, but at this time our belts need to be tightened. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Jeanene Jewett. She'll be followed by Nicole Johnson. MS. JEWITT: Hello. Like many of the people before me -- MR. MILLER: Could you get on microphone, please. MS. JEWITT: Sorry. I'm also for Conservation Collier. I actually think that we should expand our conservation efforts in Collier County. Not cut it. Not put it on hold. I do understand the referendum. I understand what it does; what it doesn't do; who it taxes, that's me the property owner. I understand the budget balance or the fund balance, as he explained earlier; and the whole list of properties waiting for Conservation Collier to evaluate them. So I urge you to please leave the fund as it is, leave the mill rate at the 2022 budget or mill rate, and approve the properties when Conservation Collier proposes for purchase. Thank you for your time. Thank you for listening to me. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Nicole Johnson, and we'll follow her with George Sanchez on Zoom, and then Nancy Rose on Zoom. MS. JOHNSON: Good evening. For the record, Nicole Johnson here on behalf of the Conservancy of Southwest Florida and our over 6,500 supporting families. And we're here to support full funding of Conservation Collier at the .25 mill, as voters overwhelming approved in 2002. The Conservancy's been involved in all three of the Conservation Collier referenda, 2002, 2006, and then in 2020. And as you have heard by numerous speakers before, all of these referenda were overwhelmingly supported by voters. September 21, 2023 Page 59 But I think that really bears some thinking, because to get voters to vote to tax themselves, especially in Collier County, that takes something, and that was not by accident. The conservation and business communities came together to really explain to the voters what the tax was, what it would do, and all the good work that Conservation Collier has done since 2002. And the 2020 referendum was approved in the middle of a pandemic raging, economic uncertainty. The voters knew what they wanted, and they voted for it. Out of all the services that you are going to be voting to fund for the property tax side of things, Conservation Collier is the only one that I'm aware of that voters actually had the opportunity to weigh in on. So, please, listen to what the voters have said. There's been some talk about full funding will bring in about 4 million more next year than this year, and that makes sense, because the properties that Conservation Collier is looking to acquire, their value has gone up, too, as has the cost of managing property. So you really do need to keep the program up and up to speed with the cost of the lands. There are a lot of reasons to support Conservation Collier, but three really good ones include Irma, Ian, Idalia. When you look at Conservation Collier lands, I think sometimes we become complacent. Sure, it's a pretty parcel, and maybe it's nice for wildlife. It's good to take a walk in, and it's more attractive than the strip mall across the street. But natural lands, preserve lands, are some of the lowest cost, most effective and hardest-working infrastructure that Collier County has. Natural lands, especially wetlands, are wonderful at storing floodwater, at cleansing water as it goes through the wetlands and filters back. This is something that provides a service and a benefit to Collier County residents. September 21, 2023 Page 60 There's a tendency to forget about not just the aesthetic value of these lands. This is part of what Collier County is and makes it unique. It's the goose that lays the golden egg, if you will. Our environment is our economy. Please follow the will of the voters and fully fund Conservation Collier. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Ma'am, let me ask you a question. Are you going to stay until the end when the commissioners start talking? Because I had question -- I would have a question for you, but I would keep going, but if you're going to exit now or sometime soon, and I'd miss the opportunity to ask you something. What's your plan for tonight? MS. JOHNSON: It depends on how -- how caffeinated I get in the next hour. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'm going to just break protocol, then, and ask you a question, because you're a senior leader in the Conservation Collier organization, correct? I mean -- or one of the knowledgeable people -- MS. JOHNSON: I'm with the Conservancy. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. Absolutely. So it's -- you know, I don't want to say that you're more than a citizen, but you have a much deeper dive. And maybe you can't answer this question, but it was brought up by a citizen who -- let's see. Maybe he's already gone. If Conservation Collier got 20 million in 2020, why didn't it buy $20 million worth of property? If it got 30 million last year, why didn't it buy -- and I'm asking this as a question, not taking a position. But, you know, the beauty of having citizens speak first -- I've got a ton of notes here from some people that are really smart. So why isn't that? Why didn't it buy $30 million -- why didn't it buy $20 million worth of property last year? Where'd the money go? So we gave them $30 million and bought what? Do you know September 21, 2023 Page 61 the answer to that? And I don't mean it to be -- I'm sounding very interrogation-like but, I mean, we're getting a lot of good information here, so -- MS. JOHNSON: Absolutely. And the Conservancy, since 2020, has not followed the ins and outs of the Conservation Collier process nearly as closely as my colleagues with Audubon and Meredith with Live Wildly, so they might have more of the details. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. And that's fair. MS. JOHNSON: But, of course, it's a process of parcels that come forward to be nominated. They have to go through the vetting process to make sure that the county is spending those tax dollars wisely, and then they come before you. I don't -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And we know that, how the process works. And, you know, from the 500 emails that I got, there was a handful of people that actually, you know, asked that very similar question, which was, is the vetting process not fast enough? Is there not $30 million worth of properties that are worth buying? Where's the money go when you don't spend it? So, you know, like I said, there might be people out in the audience that have yet to come to the podium, and we'll get to that. But I just knew that you had a more deep-dive level of expertise, so I appreciate, you know, that, and if they come to the podium as well, because that's a big question I had before this meeting even started, why haven't we bought -- you know, why haven't we spent that fund? So, anyway. MS. JOHNSON: Well -- and it's making sure that the parcels that do apply actually do meet the criteria. That's important -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Absolutely. MS. JOHNSON: -- to be fiscally responsible for those. And I know that there have been a lot of good parcels that are in the process. So probably someone that follows the Conservation Collier September 21, 2023 Page 62 Land Acquisition Committee on a more regular basis could be able to -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Absolutely. MS. JOHNSON: -- talk about that specifically. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I throw that out there to see who comes. Okay. Thank you, ma'am. MS. JOHNSON: Thanks. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Who's next, Mr. Miller? MR. MILLER: We're going to go next on Zoom to Nancy Rose. I do want to let our Zoom speakers know -- we've had some trouble connecting with some of them -- you cannot watch on cable and then queue up on time on Zoom. It's a significant delay on cable. You really need to listen and watch the meeting on the Zoom as well. So we're going to go to Nancy Rose, and then we're going to try George Sanchez after that. Ms. Rose, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do that at this time. There you are. Ms. Rose, you have three minutes. MS. ROSE: I moved to Collier County in 1996, and I'm here to share my support for Conservation Collier. But, actually, I'm going to yield the rest of my remaining time to the people who are patiently waiting to speak there in person. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Thank you, ma'am. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well said. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Next, we're going to try George Sanchez. Mr. Sanchez, you should be being prompted to unmute yourself at this time, if you will do that. There you are, Mr. Sanchez. You have three minutes. MR. SANCHEZ: Thank you. (Unintelligible.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Nope. MR. MILLER: Isaac, go ahead and mute him. Sir, we can't September 21, 2023 Page 63 hear -- we can't understand you. I don't know if it's your microphone or your phone that you're on. Yeah, we're going to -- I'll tell you what, let's try somebody else on Zoom, and we'll see if we can get him addressed off-line. Shane Duff. Shane Duff, you're being prompted to unmute yourself at this time, if you'll do that at this time for me, sir. You have three minutes, and Mr. Duff will be followed by Brad Cornell. Go ahead, Mr. Duff. MR. DUFF: Thank you. Can you hear me okay? MR. MILLER: Yes, sir. MR. DUFF: Okay, perfect. Thank you to the commissioners here for taking the time to hear me out. I am both the president of Cypress Cove Landkeepers and the Gore Nature Education Center. We run a preserve that sits within the boundaries of the Dr. Robert H. Gore Preserve Conservation Collier lands. So, you know, I want to be super clear that, obviously, there is an inherent interest on behalf of our organization to make sure Collier County -- or Conservation Collier maintains their budgets, but in saying that, I also want to share that myself and the entire team and founder of this organization who have put countless -- thousands of hours of our time into helping to be part of the conservation and preservation of land in this county have all done so free. We are a purely volunteer organization. So I want to be clear, I have a horse in the race, but I have zero interest other than the behalf of the rest of the residents of Collier County. While I had no background in conservation space, I spent my entire life, since the age of 17, running companies, running turnarounds, and I have a skill set that I felt I could bring to this organization and this conservation space. September 21, 2023 Page 64 And my wife and I moved to Collier County, seven years ago, are full-time residents. We were fortunate enough to meet some incredible people at Rookery Bay as volunteers who educated us quite a bit, and since then I have been, you know, fortunate to be able to spend a lot of time picking the brains of some of the foremost experts in this space, a couple of which you've heard from tonight, Jean McCallam and Mike Duever, amongst others. I'm not going to repeat everything that has been said. I think it's been said ad nauseam, a lot of it, but I do want to point a couple things out, and I do want to double down on a couple things. First and foremost, when we look at the amount of green space that is owned by Conservation Collier, as some folks have referred to it as government-owned, which I realize it is, this is an exception, in my mind. Number one, all green space is not created equally. Number two, I think all of us probably listening to this, anybody who has any interest in what's going on here, we are here because this is a beautiful and very unique place in the world. Conservation Collier program is designed to purchase ecologically sensitive important areas. We heard from folks at the Conservancy about this; these lands are critical. If we all want what we have and what we are here for to be maintained, I would argue that this is the most important thing that we all should be talking about right now. This is a beautiful place. I get there's lots of services. I want to see parks fully funded. I want to see the folks in Immokalee get everything they need. I want to see everything get what it needs, but it's all in vain if we let this beautiful place fall apart. And while it might not happen in some of our lifetimes, it will happen at some point if we don't not only maintain the funding, but I would argue to -- some other folks have mentioned in the future, this should be continued to be increased. You know, this is one of the few programs I believe is September 21, 2023 Page 65 completely correlated to property value increases because, as we've heard, it costs more money to acquire land that costs more money. Furthermore, with all the inflation, the cost of land management has increased. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sir, please wrap up. MR. DUFF: We know this firsthand as a nonprofit. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sir, please wrap up when you get a chance. Thank you. MR. DUFF: Yep, yep. Absolutely. So, yeah, I will leave it at that. I do want to address just one thing that was said at the meeting on September 12th talking about the mill rate and the properties coming off the tax roll. I want to point out how low the value is of undeveloped land. And, you know, this is not something that should be considered, as was suggested by one of the commissioners, part of the .25 percent rate. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. DUFF: I find that to be, frankly, insulting. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. DUFF: Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker here in the room is Brad Cornell, and he'll be followed by Eileen Arsenault. MR. CORNELL: Good evening, Commissioners, Mr. Chair. I'm Brad Cornell. I'm here on behalf of Audubon Western Everglades and Audubon Florida. Thank you for the opportunity to address the budget. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Brad, somebody sent me an email and said I was rude to you the last time you were here. We're friends, right? We're colleagues, right? MR. CORNELL: We're all colleagues. We're all Collier County citizens, and we're all working on the same thing. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: They said I made you a scapegoat September 21, 2023 Page 66 is what they said, and I'm trying to correct the record. But I digress. Go ahead, sir. MR. CORNELL: So I want to make it clear, if it wasn't clear, that Audubon Western Everglades and Audubon Florida fully support the -- what voters voted for in 2020, to levy the full quarter mill for Conservation Collier. I want to support that by citing a couple of points, and that is, this is green infrastructure. This is fundamental, not optional, sorts of investments in our community. It's investments in fire protection, and we know that in Golden Gate Estates we've had several fires that have been very threatening, including this past spring. There was a 2,800-acre fire in the North Belle Meade in Golden Gate Estates in 2020 in May. This is going to happen again. And so investing in projects like Winchester Head, Horse Pen Strand, Red Maple Swamp, Bob Gore Preserve, as you just heard, in the North Belle Meade Preserve are really important. Second, I want to point out that Conservation Collier buys land that the feds and the state are not buying. So this is a niche that it's serving that's close to us. Like, the Pepper Ranch and the Gordon River Greenway, these are things that are really popular and important for our community. Third, I want to point out that the American Farmland Trust and NRCS has done studies over a number of years about the cost of services for different kinds of land. Industrial land and businesses cost, per dollar of tax taken in and spent, only 30 cents on that dollar. Pretty cheap. Agriculture and open space, 37 cents, on average. This is looking at 150 communities across the country. Residential, $1.16 for every dollar of tax. It's more expensive to service and provide services for residential development. I also want to point out that it's a time-sensitive issue to buy September 21, 2023 Page 67 conservation land. As we know, a lot of people are moving to Florida. University of Florida demographers say over the next decades, we're going to get 15 million more people, and I want to know, where are we going to put those 15 million more people by 2070 without ruining the nature of Florida? So there's a cautionary tale about Broward County having passed a bond referendum to buy conservation land in 2000, and they looked around, and most of the county was already developed. It was too late. They only bought a thousand acres. So that's a cautionary tale. We don't want to follow that lead. We want to do what we can now, and that's recommending full funding. So thank you very much for that consideration. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sir, let me just ask you, in case you're not here at 3 a.m. when we are -- and I'm sure the room's going to be empty. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: You're going to be here at 3 a.m.? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: We're all going to -- we're all going to be here. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Oh. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It's going to take them two and a half hours to redo the numbers. Why does -- why does the purchase of land every year under Conservation Collier not match or even come close to the budget that they -- that they get? You would think if they get 20 million, 30 million, 35 million, that they bought 27 million, they bought 19 million. I mean, I know I've been sitting here for three years, and I've approved probably about $2 million worth of conservation land. Where is the backlog, or where's that cash? MR. CORNELL: So there's a couple of ways to answer that, and details, and some of that needs to come from your staff. So I September 21, 2023 Page 68 will defer to your staff, who are excellent staff, and your Land Acquisition Advisory Committee who know this in much more detail than I do. But I will point a couple things out. One is that there are expenses that are not just buying land. A quarter of all the tax receipts -- and this has only been going on for two fiscal years -- a quarter of it goes right into the land maintenance fund, Fund 174. And that's, you know, a lot of money. So that's why that sits there, and then it's used like an endowment to generate interest for proceeds from the investments to fund maintenance, and that's clearing exotics, doing prescribed burns, building, you know, parking lots and trails and all that sort of stuff. So that's very expensive stuff. So that's a big chunk of that money that you're talking about. Also, there are $8.2 million worth of projects that are waiting for the process to move forward. So the committee and the staff evaluate it, they rank it, it comes to you, and then it has to be negotiated, and then it comes back to you with a contract, and sometimes that goes back again, which it has in the last couple of -- in the last year and a half. So there's been a lot of back-and-forth. Plus, there was some staff changes at the county that threw a wrench into the works that, you know, some key staff people retired, and it slowed down the process, and that's just -- you know, it's nobody's fault. It's just the way the process works. So there's a time lag between the money coming in and being expended, and there's also the different pots that are not just land acquisitions. So if I can answer it that way. There's also $20 million worth of multi-parcel projects, including Horse Pen Strand, Winchester Head, Red Maple Swamp, the Bob Gore Preserve, and North Belle Meade Preserve. These are multi-parcel projects that take, you know, a long time to assemble all September 21, 2023 Page 69 those individual lots and put them together to make a land management plan. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: No. I appreciate that. I wanted to get some of that on the record because I think some people didn't realize, like, a portion of that does go into maintenance, and we'll ask deeper questions later. The question is, is that maintenance pot growing faster than it's needed? Because some of the things maybe don't need $20 million. And I'm not saying one lot, but overall, so -- and there's only a few people in here that could answer that. So I am going out of protocol because you might not be here at 1:00 a.m., and so -- MR. CORNELL: So in terms of how much you need for maintenance, it depends on the parcel. If you have a lot of exotics -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sure. MR. CORNELL: -- if you have a lot of fire need, it hasn't been burned in 30 years, which is typical, like in Golden Gate Estates or, you know, the Corkscrew Island neighborhood, there's -- you know, people don't like fire, even prescribed fire, you know. But when you have a wildfire come in that's catastrophic, then you realize the need for the other kind, but that's expensive. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So you think there's about an $8 million backlog of -- like, if we said right now, bring us every single property that's being considered, it would add up to about 8 million? Is that more or less -- I'm not holding you to a figure, but -- MR. CORNELL: No. I added it up. It's on your -- it's on the spreadsheet on the front page of Conservation Collier. It's about 8.2 million. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. But, obviously, we wouldn't vote for all of those, so less than $8 million would probably get purchased, because some of those aren't priorities or they drop September 21, 2023 Page 70 out? MR. CORNELL: They're all priority. They all have contracts. They're all waiting for your -- they're waiting to come through the process to come to you. It's a little bit of a slow process. You approved about 500,000 at your last meeting on six parcels. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Oh, I'm aware. MR. CORNELL: Yeah, yeah. So that was just 500,000. You have another 8.15 million to go. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. But when you're getting, like, 20 million, 25 million, 30 million every year, that still seems like a small number to me. So this is a question I would have asked you in four hours when we got into commissioner discussion, but it's important to get that answer now. It just seems like the number still is unbalanced. And I'm not picking on Conservation Collier, but I'm trying to sit up here and do the math. You know, the last speaker said I want everything funded. Okay. Well, that's not possible. MR. CORNELL: There was a couple parcels -- there was the Al Hammock parcel, which was 7,300 acres. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Not fully. MR. CORNELL: That was a probably 40-, $50 million parcel. Now, that's still on the list, but the state now is looking at that. That's in the Area of Critical State Concern. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. MR. CORNELL: There's also parcels around Lake Trafford that were on the list. They were on the list for about, I don't know, eight, 10 years, and then they fell away because the process didn't have any money for them while they were on that list, and now that -- you know, it just didn't work out. They're pursuing other options. I don't know what those options are. So, you know, if a big parcel -- and I have heard rumors that September 21, 2023 Page 71 there are big parcels that are coming to the county right now, and you've bought some. You bought the HHH Ranch. You bought some other lands south of Oil Well Road. There are some other parcels that I have heard of that could be coming to you that are in the thousands of acres. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Big, yeah. Okay. That's good for us to hear. MR. CORNELL: So if you don't have a pot, then you don't make those kind of deals. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Do any other commissioners -- I mean, you're only one of a handful of what I would consider subject-matter experts that know more than just, hey, I voted for this at .25. I love the environment. I mean, this is what you live and breathe every day. Does any commissioner have a question for Mr. Cornell just before he maybe evaporates from the room as it gets a little later? MR. CORNELL: I'm trying not to evaporate. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Thank you, sir. I really appreciate your expertise and getting that on the record, too. That's one of the reasons why, too, I wanted to ask it, just because there's some -- there is a little bit of miscommunication out there. But, okay. Thank you, sir. MR. CORNELL: And thank you for that dialogue. I appreciate it. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yes, sir, absolutely. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Eileen Arsenault, and she'll be followed by Ryan -- is it Sperow? MR. SPERZEL: Sperzel. MR. MILLER: Sperzel. MS. ARSENAULT: Thank you all for having me here tonight, and thank you for your responses to my emails. September 21, 2023 Page 72 I know how much time you put in, and appreciate it. And I hope you get out sometimes, because one thing you should be very proud of that I and several people in this room were a part of is the Gordon River Greenway. It was open a few years ago and, from day one, it has been one of the most popular amenities in this county. And if you haven't been on it, it's just one of your parcels that we've been -- supported because of Conservation Collier, and I hope you're proud of it because we all are, who worked on it. I just want you to picture a room of 100 people, and I want you to picture that 77 people in that room voted to tax themselves. And you have to say, why would somebody vote to tax themselves? And the reason is because they are passionate about what they're trying to save. And when people are passionate about something enough to tax themselves, I think that you have to pay attention to that. And I think most of you have run on a platform of less government overreach and more paying attention to the citizens. And if that is true, and I hope it is, then I think this is a very clear mandate from your citizens that we want to fully preserve the .25 millage rate for Conservation Collier. Thank you so much. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Ryan Sperzel. He'll be followed by Meredith Budd. MR. SPERZEL: Thank you for the opportunity to speak tonight. I know it's already been a long evening, but I appreciate you time and attention. My name is Ryan Sperzel, and I am one of the many who emailed the Board regarding the Conservation Collier issue a few days ago, and both Chairman LoCastro and Commissioner Hall replied personally with detailed responses. So I want to make sure I recognize and thank you both for that. In those responses, you made clear that you have no intention of September 21, 2023 Page 73 canceling the program. Chairman LoCastro, you mention that the budget isn't being slashed and characterized that as misinformation. While I understand that you aren't actually lowering the funding for this program, I think your reply does not acknowledge an important truth that has already been stated but I want to emphasize. If inflation occurs and the cost of goods and services increases and the cost of land but the Conservation Collier funding remains the same, that money will be able to accomplish less. In real terms, when you adjust for inflation, this proposal is effectually weakening the Conservation Collier program. In reaching out to you, Chairman LoCastro, I must have landed on your email list, because I started receiving your commissioners report emails. In the most recent one, you spoke about the importance of managing a budget. I hear you on not wanting to let the budget increase without oversight, and I appreciate having government officials who are good money managers. If there is concern over funding being used efficiently, I would fully support auditing that program to ensure we are making the most of important taxpayer dollars. I think, though, that the issue here is that you have identified Conservation Collier as being one of the lower priorities and an opportunity to keep taxes as low as possible amid inflation, and that is a mistake. You said yourself that we need to be, quote, focusing on required upgrades, many of them long overdue, in protecting our environment, among other things, end quote. You're right, and the citizens of Collier County overwhelmingly agree on that. Is preventing the ability of Conservation Collier funding to keep up with inflation what you consider an upgrade? You said in your commissioner's report that, quote, sadly 100 percent of the citizen emails you've received only talk about this program, end quote. You know, I have to respectfully disagree with that. I September 21, 2023 Page 74 don't think it is sad. I think it reveals how much the community is concerned about this, so much so that it overshadows everything else, and certainly the attendance here tonight is a testament to that as well. With the development landscape being what it is in Collier, we can't afford not to invest in conservation. That is why we voted to tax ourselves in 2020 and, despite inflation, why we stand before you today asking you to honor that the way the people voted for it at the current mill rate. Chairman LoCastro, you closed out your email to me by saying that you have supported Conservation Collier not only in words but actions, and I'm proud to know that you have, and I ask that you and the rest of the Board demonstrate that support in your actions today. Chairman, you said at the beginning of the night that what transpires during public comment can change what follows. I hope to see that tonight. Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Now, that is a fine young man, even though we agree to disagree on a few things, okay. I will just say, I understand the math equation, that if property goes up but we fund Conservation Collier at the same. But what we're also talking about here is using our due diligence and making sure that we prioritize what we buy if Conservation Collier was affected. But I don't know this young man, but I really appreciate you being here, sir, and representing our community. You know, continue to stay in touch with me. That's why I sent you the newsletter. I want your feedback. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Meredith Budd. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Oh, no. MR. MILLER: She'll be followed on Zoom by Teddy Collins, who is our last speaker on Zoom. September 21, 2023 Page 75 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MS. BUDD: Good evening, Commissioners. My name is Meredith Budd. I am a Collier County resident since 2012. I'm here today of behalf of the Friends of the Panther Refuge, as I serve on the board as the vice president. As many of you know, I have worked in the environmental realm here in Conservation Collier over the last decade working to protect our county here, specifically, and our region. I understand the challenge that comes with trying to balance the county's budget, and it's a difficult job, and it's one that I am certainly not envious of. I do want to thank you -- you all know I'm here to talk about Conservation Collier, so I do want to thank you for your support for Conservation Collier over the years, having it go on the ballot in 2020, as those parcels come to you for acquisition and approval, your support as they come forward. You all know the program has those overarching values that you've heard over and over this evening: Water-quality protection, protection from storms and flooding, protection from catastrophic wildfires, but there's also those more tangible benefits, with proximate access to all of your Collier County residents to wild Florida. Where many residents probably have not ventured out to those state and federal lands that make up the grand majority of the 76, 77 percent that we already have in conservation -- there's a little bit of a disagreement on actually how much percentage is in conservation -- but most of that's out in the far eastern part of the county that our residents don't typically venture out to. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find residents who have not visited the Gordon River Greenway or Freedom Park or even Pepper Ranch. And I bet you there's going to be an outstanding showing for September 21, 2023 Page 76 the sunflower festival that's coming up in October out there. I understand the desire to alleviate tax increases due to rising property values, but disproportionately targeting Conservation Collier to accommodate this is not representing the will of the people, and I know that you all recognize that. This is an opportunistic program, Commissioner LoCastro. As you mentioned, why haven't we spent this money? We never know what properties are going to come up onto the table, what's going to be submitted, and so we need to be ready for when those properties that do have a higher value are brought to us for this opportunity. The one that Brad mentioned at Owl Hammock, the state is moving in and potentially going to purchase that. It's not a guarantee. But staff has estimated that could be between 30-, 40 million, and that's before an appraisal goes out. At present, we can't afford that property with the funds we have today. That's one -- an example of a property that you might come -- or might come to your table that we would need the increased dollar amount as property values increased. At a time when we have increasing property values, cutting back funding for a program meant to purchase land seems a bit counterintuitive. Balance is key, balancing a budget, but also balancing our ecological with our economy, and Conservation Collier does that. It's a balance, and Conservation Collier helps us achieve that. I am sure there's a compromise and one that does not disproportionately target Conservation Collier. And I urge you, if you are looking to reduce the overall budget, then do so across all programs and not one that looks to cut funding from a program that's been widely, widely supported with the majority of the electorate. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker on Zoom is Teddy Collins. September 21, 2023 Page 77 He will be followed by, here in the room, Andy Hill. Teddy, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do so at this time. You're being prompted to unmute yourself. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: He's got about 10 kids, so... MR. MILLER: Well, that could be the problem. We'll go ahead and have Mr. Hill come up to the mic. Mr. Collins, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you can do that at this time. (No response.) MR. MILLER: All right. Mr. Hill, why don't you come on up -- MR. COLLINS: Can you hear me? MR. MILLER: Oh, yeah, now I hear you. Yeah. Hey, there you go. You have three minutes, sir. MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Commissioners. I think no one is really asking to defund Collier -- conservative [sic] Collier, but we aren't looking to tax ourselves out living here so a few people could enjoy the fruits of our labors. Some of the previous speakers may not realize, but when people voted for those rates, people could afford them before this current administration took our economy into a death spiral. We also voted for you and trust your decisions, that we will be able to navigate through these situations with wisdom. I remember when Rush Limbaugh on the radio was talking about cross-rich can afford to be environmentally friendly. An example would be how Americans can afford waste management versus third-world countries that aren't very wealthy can't afford to even dispose of their trash. But I think it's more important that we take care of our people first, and then, realistically, we can help the environment because they're prosperous. See, I care more about feeding my kids more September 21, 2023 Page 78 than some rare moths or yellow-footed booby bird. Why people -- why? Because people come first, then the environment. That's God's order, and not my opinion. If people want to give to these causes, they are welcome to donate on their own. We have plenty of wealthy individuals that would hop on that train. Why not take the money from Conservation Collier funds and maybe purchase a safe haven baby box that would only cost 20 to 30K and which would actually save a few lives? Please stay committed to your tax pledges. Thank you. MR. MILLER: All right. We'll come back here in the room to Andy Hill. I don't see Andy Hill, so let's try Peter Goodin. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Here comes Peter. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Here comes Peter. And Peter will be followed by Gordon Brumwell. Yeah, that's absolutely fine, sir. MR. GOODIN: You've heard from -- sorry. You've heard from plenty of people who value the Conservation Collier program, but this is a budget meeting, so we need to talk about money. What is the real monetary cost of the program? To the average homeowner, it's under the cost of a Big Mac and fries once a month. Tax relief is a legitimate issue. The Board recently directed county budget planners to compile a list of programs that might be cut or postponed. They gave back 31 options, including reducing, by some percentage, this year's $18 million contribution to capital reserves, the rainy day fund. Necessary, but on the table in hard times. Somehow out of this, the Board developed a plan that tries to balance the budget on the back of Conservation Collier, the only program explicitly authorized by the voters to fund one thing of value to them. September 21, 2023 Page 79 In my communications with the Board, commissioners have used terms such as "hyperinflation" and "exponential increases in taxes" to justify what they'd like to do with Conservation Collier's funding. Neither is accurate or helpful. A commissioner has stated, we are not cutting Conservation Collier; we're just not giving it a raise. The average funding for the program over the last three years has been $29 million; 20 million is, indeed, at least a 31 percent cut. A commissioner has stated, quote, by pausing some of the tax levy for Conservation Collier, we can move the differences to the operating fund of the county. That would be contrary to the express intent of Collier voters who supported the referendum by a landslide. A commissioner assured me that Conservation Collier has, quote, plenty of money, 8.2 in the -- 8.2 million in the bank for future land acquisition. A recent parcel recommended to the Board for protection is home to two threatened species, burrowing owls and gopher tortoises. It sounded like a Conservation Collier slam dunk. It was voted down 4-1. Why? The Board didn't like it when the owner asked for 10K more. Remember, land prices are going up. The City of Marco thought well enough about the parcel to kick in the extra 10K. The Board refused to consider Marco's offer. Is it any wonder that the Board thinks that Conservation Collier has, quote, "plenty of money" when they don't appropriate it for the purpose voters intended it to be used? Inflation is tough on a program whose major purpose is to acquire and protect conservation lands which, like our homes, are always rising in value. In addition, I'd like to point out that the dedicated professional, Collier's Park and Rec staff who oversee this program, might deserve a cost-of-living adjustment, too, just like our deputies. These people have special skills and qualifications. How do we do right by them if we cut their funding? September 21, 2023 Page 80 Commissioners, we voted our own interests when we voted for Conservation Collier, and we voted for you to pursue and protect our interests. Thank you for your attention and for your service to our community. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Gordon Brumwell. He'll be followed by Catherine Downs. MR. BRUMWELL: Hi. I'm waiting for my audiovisual to get up. There we go. Hi, Gordon Brumwell, Ph.D. in biology here from District 4. First, thank you for juggling these really difficult topics. It's not easy, I know. Please keep an open mind to the idea that green space should be prioritized, and let's look to the past to inform the future. Your predecessors did not prioritize these things, and we ended up with 33,000 acres, orange, between 41 and 75 that has no public green space, whereas people in nearby areas can walk to multiple preserves or parks within 15 minutes. That's from the edge of the purple zones to one of those dots, which is a public recreation spot. The vision stated on your website is to be the best community in America to live, work, and play. That 33,000 acres puts us behind because green space makes a community better to live in because it actually improves public health. Lots of studies about that. That 33,000 acres puts us behind because all those people lack places to play. I'd like to respond to the argument, "We don't need to preserve land because so much of the county is preserved." This is a quality-of-life issue. That 77 percent, or whatever, is not where people are. It has a different biological function. We need accessible green space nearby to improve our quality of life. I'll respond to the idea that green space represents a loss of September 21, 2023 Page 81 revenue. Revenue's purpose is to buy stuff and have some saved as a buffer. For instance, you might want to buy street design to help traffic flow or buy redesign drainage for more groundwater recharge and less flooding. Think of it this way: The revenue lost to green space that we're not getting tax dollars from is what we pay for fewer cars on the road, more groundwater recharge, less flooding, and improved public health. You've heard about the Conservation Collier tax working like it should to maintain purchasing power, so I'm not going to go into that. Commissioner LoCastro did suggest suggestions. Mine is to categorize your decisions into things we can recover from and things we can't. This permanence is why some people are vocal about Conservation Collier -- when we lose the land, it's gone for good -- but you don't get calls about the library or emails about the library or potholes. We can put those things on hold for a year or two and recover from that. The library can be -- you know, hours reduced for a year or two, and we can recover from that. But once the land's built on, that's it. I think that explains a little bit of that, thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Catherine Downs. I don't see anyone getting up. There is no one on the fifth floor. Andy Wells-Bean, and Andy will be followed by Dan Sperduto. MR. WELLS-BEAN: Good evening. My name is Andy Wells-Bean. I'm the executive director with Audubon Western Everglades. I want to thank you again for your hard work digging through those budget questions and for all of your careful responses to the many folks who have expressed their opinions over the last couple weeks especially. I know that determining a budget is a determination of priorities, September 21, 2023 Page 82 and discerning the voters' priorities can be very difficult at times. Thankfully, in this case of Conservation Collier, determining the voters' preferences is relatively easy. It was put to a vote three different times, and it passed overwhelmingly. Now, I think that there are valid concerns about the pace of land acquisition, that maybe the process takes too long. Maybe things that have a high enough rank should just be purchased without an additional vote. You can empower those Conservation Collier staff. There are creative ways to meet the goals of land's conservation. Cutting the budget is not a way to actually fulfill the promise of that program. I don't want to duplicate anything else that people have said, so I'll just speak from my own personal experience from here. As an Eagle Scout, I really appreciate the Pepper Ranch where scouts can go and camp and other folks can go and hunt. As a father, I love being able to take my boys on hikes through the Alligator Flag Preserve. And as a birder and wildlife lover, I love being able to take my binoculars out for a walk in the Gordon River Greenway and other places around the county. If anything, we should be looking at ways to speed up Conservation Collier's programs to expand that work, to expand that impact. Thank you very much. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Dan Sperduto. He'll be followed by Priscilla Gray. MR. SPERDUTO: Okay. Dan Sperduto here. Thank you for listening to what we have to say. I learned a lot tonight, actually, from what people were sharing. That's helpful. I'm speaking tonight to vote -- to ask you to vote to -- for there to be no tax increase, however that has to happen. And there's a lot of reasons for that, but we'll get into that. And it's hard for people not to be confused when it comes to September 21, 2023 Page 83 taxation, particularly when it deals with millage -- in my former life in a different state, I chaired a board of assessment appeals and, constantly, there was always people coming in, how can the mill rate go down and taxes go up? They had no clue, and you've got to educate them. It's an ongoing thing. I also was on the planning and zoning. So in that capacity, we dealt with a lot of green organizations and doing worthwhile things, purchasing property. And one thing I noticed, though, it never seems to be enough. We already have two-thirds-plus of the land, not even counting the county-owned, but between the state and the feds. How much land is enough? It's never enough. There's always more money. They want more land. And not that any of this is anti-conservation. It's just at some point it's got to be enough. So I just want to put that in your -- bee in your bonnet there. But according to -- like, the school board just had an increase; we talked about that. Obviously, they claim that the taxes were -- didn't go up, but they did. Let me see, if I have more dollars in my wallet than -- or less dollars, I know I paid more or paid less. So this is like smoke and mirrors, and I don't -- I don't know about that. But I'm definitely concerned about animals, wildlife. I mean, absolutely, and -- but we need to also be concerned about people. It's not just the owls. It's not just the toads. It's not just the whales. It's also people. People that -- I have an elderly woman that I'm helping. She has -- she's broke, completely broke. So it may seem like a small thing to some people who can make -- well, it's just a little bit extra for the environment. She's wondering what she can eat, you know, so I'm trying to hook her up with some organization because she just doesn't have the money. So HOA fees go up, insurance is going up. You know, car -- what do you call it? Gasoline tax, it doubled under the Biden Administration. September 21, 2023 Page 84 And so I just want to think about the people. And having no tax increase, it -- we're not shutting down the organization at all. They still have plenty of money. It's just that the interest alone can fund a lot of what they're talking about, and I think in the long run they'll still be able to acquire properties, which I encourage, but that's what I have to say, so thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Priscilla Gray. She'll be followed by -- gee, I hope I'm doing this right. Em Kless? Em? Yes. Okay. So you'll be at this podium. MS. GRAY: Good evening, gentlemen. I'm tired. There's no coffee here. I don't know how you do it. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I've got coffee in the back. MS. GRAHAM: I'm against taxes going up, and I love the environment. And I feel like I appreciate some of the things that are being said by Conservation Collier and their friends. I should say their colleagues, because I feel like I'm one of their friends, too. I'm a third generation Floridian. I grew up in Miami, as did my dad, who called it "Miama." And he always, until he died last year at the age of 96, talked about the encroaching, you know, into the Everglades and how they weren't going to develop. And then -- then, Priscilla, then they went and developed it, and they said they weren't gonna, but then they did. So I have a lot of empathy for their point of view and, you know, I feel it. As a single mother in South Florida, I raised two birders, and we would take our binoculars and our, you know, nature trails very seriously. And I think my daughter even applied to Conservation Collier for a job five years ago. Anyhow, back to why I'm waiting here tonight to speak. When people voted for a tax increase, I don't think they were suffering as much as they are now. I mean, I know they weren't, because I September 21, 2023 Page 85 wasn't. And we have to look at the whales and the snails, but we also have to look at the folks who are suffering. And I'm here, I think, I feel representing a lot of single moms and single dads and struggling families. They don't have time -- like my friend Mr. Dan Cook who came here tonight as a single dad with his little girl. They don't have time. This isn't, like, what they do, you know. But they feel as strongly as many of us do that there's just got to be some relief. And we elected you gentlemen. We're in a republic. We elected you to represent our intentions. You've just got to find a way to reduce the taxes. You just have to help us out. I mean, there are too many struggling folks. And I feel so enthusiastic about some of the, you know, environmental causes. I'd be willing to help with a fundraiser and tap the folks that can pay for it. What do you think of that idea? Let's ask Wolf Lodge to give back some of the $15 million that you-all gave them last year, those developers. They don't need that 15 million. Please lower the taxes. Please think about the people of Collier County. And please remember that we elected you to represent us and our intentions, you know. Look at the facts of the different people living here and the teachers and the law enforcement and the support staff and the folks that pick the greens and pick the fruit for us. Just think of all of us that are paying for the taxes. Thank you so much. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Em Kless. She'll be followed by Steve Nellis. Ms. Kless has been ceded three additional minutes from Adriene Lewis. (Raises hand.) September 21, 2023 Page 86 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I just want to say I'm so glad to see that dog because I thought I saw a dog run across there, and I thought maybe I was falling asleep or needed some coffee or something. So I was -- I was really thinking -- I thought I was seeing things. Go ahead, ma'am. MS. KLESS: My name is Em Kless. I'm the president of the Naples Chapter of the Florida Native Plant Society. Our chapter is in support of Conservation Collier. Natural areas like Conservation Collier preserves not only give us air to breathe, clean water to drink, and food to eat, but numerous other services that can't be replaced or replicated once they're lost. Just for context, there are close to 100 recorded endangered or threatened plant species in Collier County. Some of them exist nowhere else on the planet. Meanwhile, the risk of plant extinctions globally has doubled in just the past four years. We're facing a biodiversity crisis. Meanwhile, the Board is reviewing the budget of this program and is considering pausing some of the tax levy to lessen the burden on taxpayers. So let's talk about money. According the census bureau, the average median value of a home in Collier County is $416,000. That homeowner's cost to fund this program is roughly $100 a year. We're asking people to pay less than one week's worth of groceries once a year for a program that's so popular it was reapproved for a second time by 77 percent of voters. If you're struggling paycheck to paycheck, you don't own a 400,000 home, and $100 is not a big ask of you. So far this program has acquired 4,700 acres of land that have acquired from willing sellers, people who want their land protected in perpetuity. This isn't land that people want developed for a higher future return on taxes. It's land that people want preserved. And just for perspective, 4,700 acres, that's less than 10 percent of the land September 21, 2023 Page 87 that an adult panther needs in order to roam. It's not a big ask to ask for more land. It's been said this program can coast on existing funds, but property values have gone up by 20 percent. You've heard this over and over tonight. They're only going to continue to increase, as will the risk of development to our sacred lands. The current projected funding for this program is appropriate, and it's imperative given those factors and given the biodiversity crisis that we face because people didn't vote on a projected funding level or a funding cap. They voted on a static millage rate. It's also been labeled a program that has no return on investment, but Collier County is labeled as Paradise Coast. The County's tourism web page touts our pristine natural areas. It's the entire first paragraph of our own website. They brought in $2.5 billion in tourism money in 2021 alone. It's why people visit Collier County, and it's why people move to Collier County. This program doesn't just support that ecotourism. It provides free access to natural places for all of our citizens, improving physical and mental health. Another return on investment, water. Many of these properties are seasonally wet. They're essential to our water cycle, and the access to drinking water is an immeasurable return on investment, especially as climate change will reduce freshwater availability for all of us. Wetland habitats mitigate floods, and this county is predicted to see historic flooding, king tides, hurricanes in the coming decades. $100 for your average homeowner to Conservation Collier today is far cheaper than the cost of mitigating constant future flooding. For every pause in funding, we will pay with interest in the future, because nature's not going to pause, development's not going to pause, so we cannot pause the protection of resources that are necessary for human life. September 21, 2023 Page 88 Our community and our economy relies on the preservation of healthy native ecosystems. There's no choice to be made between humanity, the people who struggle, and protecting nature because without protecting nature, there is no humanity. We rely on nature to breathe, eat, and be safe. We have to protect nature if we want to help people. Thank you. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Steve Nellis, and he will be followed by Rosemary Tolliver. MR. NELLIS: So, yeah, my name is Steve Nellis. I've lived here -- I moved here in 2001, so I've been a full-time resident since then. And I was a businessman prior to that, or I guess you could call me that. I was -- I've been very successful. I was able to retire on my 59th birthday, and I live here, and I enjoy living here. I think -- I fully support Conservation Collier. I think the points that the last lady made were very, you know, accurate. $100 a year for the average citizen is -- I'd call it peanuts for living in this wonderful place. So I'm not going to repeat everything, you know, everybody else said because, it's -- you know, it becomes redundant. So thank you for listening to me. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Rosemary Tolliver. She'll be followed by Robert W. Randall. MS. TOLLIVER: Good evening, Commissioners. I'm sorry, Commissioner LoCastro, I'm going to be another one of those ad nauseam speakers here. I've been a Collier County resident for 45 years. So, yeah, I've seen growth down here. And Conservation Collier is a very important program that the Collier County voters wanted, overwhelmingly. September 21, 2023 Page 89 And I'm aware that -- and so were the voters -- that this was tax funded. They knew this when they voted on it. I'm asking you to please continue to fully fund this vital program to preserve and restore and maintain these vital areas that are significant, that have the natural lands, forest, upland, and wetland communities. We need to save these properties that are so important to our ecosystem and the wild inhabitants that are protected, threatened, and endangered. And I'm a big proponent of the wildlife on this -- in this county. I've been a volunteer for the owl watch program. I'm currently a volunteer for the Florida Audubon eagle watch program, and I monitor the nests on Marco Island. So it's very important -- there is a parcel coming up on Marco Island next month for purchase that is the only public spot on Marco Island that has nesting bald eagles, and so it's very important that Conservation Collier's preserved, and I hope I can count on a yes vote and a yes vote next month as well. Thank you for your time. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Robert W. Randall. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Where are we, Mr. Miller, in quantity left of speakers, just to get an idea? MR. MILLER: Well, if I don't have Mr. Randall or Mary Randall here, then we've got five left. Susan Piekenbrock. Susan Piekenbrock, Piekenbrock. (No response.) MR. MILLER: P.J. Marinelli, and he will be followed by Ellin Goetz. So about four left, it looks like, Mr. Chair. MR. MARINELLI: Good morning, or -- it seems like a morning. Sorry. Good evening, rather. My name is P.J. Marinelli. I am a resident of North Naples, a small business owner, someone involved in our community through various nonprofits and volunteer September 21, 2023 Page 90 activities. I grew up in Naples from the mid '80s all the way through high school. Left for college, returned in 2008 from the New York City area specifically for the quality of life and the variety of outdoor activities, those ranging from camping and hiking to hunting and fishing, and now I just enjoy time in the woods and walking the Gordon River Greenway with my three young boys teaching them the things and the life lessons I learned growing up here. However, most relevant for this evening is that I'm a voter and a conservative. In my short remarks, I'm certainly going to reiterate a few things, but bear with me, there are some other points I want to touch on. I want to make three points. Conservation Collier is a productive program that has served and continues to serve as a model for other counties; number two, Conservation Collier is very popular primary with the voters and taxpayers; and, three, Conservation Collier is more important today than it ever has been. Thanks to Conservation Collier funds, we have Pepper Ranch, Caracara Prairie Preserve, and the Gordon River Greenway that I often refer to as the Central Park of Naples. In total, the program has preserved over 4,700 acres and 22 projects. Now, these projects might not have otherwise been saved had it not been for Conservation Collier. But for comparison, I'd like to reference Lee County's program where they've completed 157 acquisitions and conserved over 31,000 acres. This is six times more than Collier. These projects protect rare listed species and habitat as well as providing for aquifer recharge, wildlife buffering, water-quality protection, and the programs, as has been mentioned, fill a specific role in the world of conservation that other programs can't easily replicate given the local approach. I mentioned our program serves as a model for other counties. September 21, 2023 Page 91 Just last fall, voters in Alachua, Brevard, Indian River, Nassau all passed ballot referendums. I want to highlight the number that's been thrown around: 76.5 percent is more than either presidential candidate received in the last election, the winning congressional representative, any of our state reps, and any of the county commissioners in 2020 or '22. I raise this point. This is a nonpartisan issue. This is something that the people of Collier County have self-imposed, and I ask that you continue to support the .25 mill for Conservation Collier. Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Ellin Goetz. She'll be followed by Martha Bantz. MS. GOETZ: Good evening. Thank you for having me. I am Ellin Goetz. I've lived in Collier County since 1984. I was crazy enough to chair the PAC three times that brought Conservation Collier forward to the voters. And trust me, you-all have run for office, you know how hideously horribly wonderful political campaigns are. They are not easy. 2020 was the hardest campaign that we had. It was a pandemic. We did not know the appetite of the voters for something -- a program like this, and we make a very fact-based pitch to the county, and it was received by the voters, as everyone here has -- not everyone, but most people here have alluded to, and that is a remarkable thing. I want to encourage you to be creative tonight, to not be disproportionate in penalizing a program that has been successful over these years that will -- is a future-based program. And we need to look into the future here. And I really want to compliment this guy. I never heard him before, but Ryan in the audience, that's our future. He -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Don't do that. Don't do that. MS. GOETZ: Yes, it is. Why not? September 21, 2023 Page 92 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: You hear the young lady with the dog? I mean, come on. MS. GOETZ: She is good, too. No. (Applause.) MS. GOETZ: I love her. I love all these -- I mean, tonight has been a lot of fun for me, because I got to meet all these people that I never knew before. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: You are not leaving until we're done, okay. Don't exit out of here. MS. GOETZ: I don't plan to let you get off that easily, Mr. LoCastro. Okay. No, I -- this has been an amazing night, and I'm sure that you share that feeling. You may not share the same opinions that we have, and you may not have this feeling for this program that we -- that many of these people here tonight have, but regardless of that, I know that -- I have confidence in you that you are going to do the right thing for those of us that are here tonight and for the rest -- for this county, okay? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am. MS. GOETZ: Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you for the hard work you put in all the -- for all the campaigning. MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Martha Bantz, and she will be followed by Barry Bromley. MS. BANTZ: Oh, thank goodness there's somebody else, because mine is not going to be anywhere like anybody else's. Very impressed with the speakers tonight. I think they had a lot of good information. Yeah, you guys need to think back over the lady with the dog and the other gentleman you like so much. They really had a lot of good points to make along with many other people -- September 21, 2023 Page 93 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Don't overdo it. MS. BANTZ: I'm just saying, another vote for Conservation Collier. Like one gentleman pointed out, the money is not that much. And I don't mean to dismiss if anybody is struggling at all, but it's not that much to pay for the benefits that we will get from it. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, fellow commissioners, your final public speaker is Gary Bromley. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Gary, Gary, this better be -- this better be like an inauguration speech. Bring it home. MR. MILLER: No pressure. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Bring it home, sir. Please bring it home. MR. BROMLEY: Yeah. My name is Gary Bromley. I've lived in Naples for 10 years now, and I am here to speak briefly and humbly about Conservation Collier and supporting the effort to maintain the millage rate as it has been. You know, I had a number of things I thought I might say, but I've actually changed them as I've heard others speak here tonight. And one of the things that I'm curious about with some of the questions that you've had, sir, Commissioner LaCosta [sic], you know, have you actually sat down with your wonderful staff that runs Conservation Collier and actually delved into some of these questions on process? Because they're really very good people. They're very, very knowledgeable. Have you done that? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: What do you think the answer is to that? MR. BROMLEY: I would like to think it's yes -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. September 21, 2023 Page 94 MR. BROMLEY: -- but I -- based on your questions, it doesn't sound like it. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Ask City Councilman Blonna, okay, after you're done speaking, and he'll tell you. But go ahead, sir. You've got -- the floor is yours. MR. BROMLEY: But, I mean, I think the answers are there, and I think that it's an easy walk to, you know, have a meeting. The other thing is, is that, you know, lots of people have talked about the high percentage of approval for this program that the voters have spoken about. And, you know, the numbers are so high it's -- sometimes in political races, those numbers are described by the press as landslides. And really tonight, in this room, there's almost been, in my mind, a kind of microcosm of that in terms of all the people that have come out to speak in favor of this, in addition to voting for this. And, you know, another thing, too, is some people have spoken about, really, what does this mean in terms of cost to citizens? Well, it's really a very low cost. You know, some people have said a Big Mac dinner, 100 bucks a year. My case, I pay a little under $8 a month for this wonderful program, and I'll do it every day for the rest of my life. It's not a problem. It's not burdensome, I think, to most people. So that has something to be said for it as well. We all know what is happening here in Southwest Florida and Collier County, in particular, where development's happening at lightning speed. And it just continues to speed up, and it's going to continue to be very formidable. So we need this program to try and preserve and conserve for the future. You know, some people have said that we have the greenest county in Florida. But we don't live in Big Cypress. We don't live in the Everglades. You know, we live here in Collier County in an urban area. And so having these access places to go September 21, 2023 Page 95 and enjoy nature, appreciate nature, be nourished by nature is very, very valuable for our citizenry. So thank you for your time. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. Okay, Mr. Miller. MR. MILLER: That is it. We had 79 -- approximately 79 people in the queue tonight, but I think with people dropping off Zoom and not here in the room, I think we heard from about 69 or 70 people here tonight. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Here's what's next. And I want to ask my colleagues up on the dais here what they think. The next step is we will hear from staff, but they need a little time to sort of regroup, and so my proposal would be we take a break here at 8:15, we come back at, you know -- I mean, some people are going to grab something quick to eat. Do you think if we took a break now at 8:15 and came back at 8:45, that's excessive? Thirty-minute break? What do you think, sir? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Chairman, could I just weigh in on that? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sure, yeah. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I don't think we need to hear from staff right now. I think they need to hear from us because they know what they have to do based on what we do. And so -- and we know what their story is. We've heard this a couple times. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Mr. Finn, do you have a -- is there some sort of -- I mean, I just had in my notes here that you had some sort of presentation. Is there something that's required next that would help us better discuss, or it's not required? I'm not trying to cut you off or anything, but I knew you-all were next, but that's a valid point. MR. FINN: That is -- Commissioner Saunders is completely right. The only thing that we would want to cover is the direction September 21, 2023 Page 96 the Board previously gave us relative to Rock Road and get that behind us and allow the rest of the discussion to take place. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Rock Road. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: That saves -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: But what do you-all -- chime in without speaking over each other. I mean, I think, you know, it might be smart or at least to propose to take a break now, come back in short order, and then either, you know, continue with us; it gives people a chance to exit, run home, watch us on TV if you want, or stay. What do you think, sir? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: My vote would be take a 10-minute break, and that will take care of Terri, because we're 15 minutes away from a court reporter's break. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, absolutely. That's what I was thinking. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Let's just do 10 minutes, take a little break, do the bathroom thing, come back, and then we'll deliberate and then give direction to staff. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sound good over here? Ten minutes, do you think, about, over here? Okay. So we'll say 8:15. We're going to come back here at 8:26. Let's just make it 8:30 to keep it even. We're going to come back here at 8:30. Give you a couple extra seconds -- minutes. (A brief recess was had from 8:15 p.m. to 8:30 p.m.) MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. If everybody could take their seats who want to stick around. These are the diehards. All right. We've got the nucleus here. Right, Terri? You're not going anywhere. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Terri, you're welcome to go home. September 21, 2023 Page 97 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. Okay. So now we get into the guts. First thing before we continue here, there was a speaker very early on that talked about the fields at Immokalee, so it was a, you know, totally separate thing, and I wanted to give Commissioner McDaniel a chance to address that, because it was -- a lot of things were a lot of accusations. And, sir, the floor is yours. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah. I'm going to express some public discontent. I got side-swiped yesterday when I walked into the PARAB meeting in Immokalee. I worked diligently with that community for the resurfacing of the two -- of the three fields that we have available at the Immokalee Sports Complex. We went to PARAB. We got advice from PARAB who gave direction to this board to give direction to you to do a cost-benefit analysis to resurface two of those fields from grass to turf, and it was moving through the process. And I walked into that meeting yesterday and was informed that that's been pushed and potentially pushed indefinitely. I actually heard from one of our staff members that their answer is to spend another 900,000 and resod those fields. And my main issue is the lack of communication. I heard that it's been going on quite some time with our staff. There was issues that were delved into with stormwater. Then when the stormwater got involved -- and I'm looking at you because it's a department that you're in charge of. And I'm looking at you because you're the boss of them all. And that's Amy and Dan. The disappointment that I have is nobody talked to me. I was not briefed on that whatsoever and walked into -- walked -- I mean, and, you know, there again, there's a lot of people here, but you should have been there yesterday in Immokalee when the folks in Immokalee were told that those -- that the -- I thought I was walking September 21, 2023 Page 98 into that room to listen to the football coach and Coach Manny chirp about their practice schedule because, as far as I knew, the construction was set to begin any minute, imminently, this year, and their practice time on those fields was going to be disrupted. So somebody -- somebody give me a quick-and-dirty if you would, please. MR. RODRIGUEZ: Sure, absolutely. For the record, Dan Rodriguez, your Deputy County Manager. That project started out as a pool renovation project. As you know, that Immokalee pool was 30 years olds. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Don't commingle the pool. MR. RODRIGUEZ: Well, I just need to bring up the facts on the project, having been with it for the last two years. Then there was scope work added to it to bring restrooms for the field as well as rebuild the fields, which required a lot more site development work, which included managing the stormwater. And based on our own Land Development Codes and building codes, once you touch certain aspects of that project, that construction project, it then requires all of those other enhancements. And so out of the gate, like I said, well, let's start moving in this, because we understood the scope. We said we want to build the fields, manage the drainage, because those fields flood during rainy season, and they don't make good soccer fields. We wanted to renovate the pool, add restrooms, and then make it ADA compliant as well. Well, as the engineering continued to move forward, the cost just became astronomical. In the last three years, construction prices have probably more than increased by 40 to 50 percent. And so over the summer, as we had the budget hearings, as we looked at priorities, as we looked at projects, those additional costs were nowhere in the budget. The field reconstruction, the additional September 21, 2023 Page 99 restrooms, the stormwater was never budgeted for. And, in fact, the pool renovations, we borrowed the money for that, and even that scope was not complete as it relates to the total cost and the appropriate funding for it. So we're -- we're working to resize that project and re-prioritize some of those aspects. Just recently -- and I can let the County Manager speak to this -- we're taking a much broader look at how much capital investment we're going to put into these fields when we have an opportunity for an acquisition -- it hasn't been decided yet by the Board -- to look at if that money is better spent on new virgin ground that costs less money and we have more opportunity to build additional fields. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And, you know, I appreciate the explanation, Dan. And, again, we can have this discussion -- maybe we'll have this discussion next week in our one-on-ones. There was a plan on those fields. The pool was in dilapidated condition when I became the county commissioner back in 2016. That needed renovation was also in the process, and maybe we, through process, just attached on those fields. But there was a plan on those fields, and this board gave direction for that to be accomplished, and nobody talked to Billy. And that's my -- my biggest frustration. How do we overcome circumstances if we're not communicating? How do we fix zoning issues -- how does this board fix zoning issues if there's a circumstance that arises? We -- if it's possible, plausible, we do a variance. We go into the actual scope of what was done and make adjustments along the way. And so my -- the chirp that you're hearing out of me tonight is -- it is absolutely unacceptable that I wasn't communicated with. September 21, 2023 Page 100 Literally, I walked into that meeting yesterday thinking I was going to hear the coaches chirping at me about their practice time on the fields while we were under construction, and I was told that yesterday that those -- that that project's been pushed and pushed potentially indefinitely. We haven't -- and that was when I sent you the note on that other piece of property that you're talking about that we may be able to purchase with Conservation Collier, by the way, of available lands. MR. RODRIGUEZ: Right. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: If we bought that other piece of property today, we would have to rezone it. We would have to go through the construction process. You're five years -- I'm sorry, I don't mean to yell. But you're -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: You're good. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- we're five years out on any kind of a development on that other piece of property if, in fact, an accord can be struck with the property owner. So if you hear frustration in my voice, it's solely due to the lack of communication. MS. PATTERSON: We had -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Virtually inexcusable. MS. PATTERSON: I don't agree with you at all, and I apologize that you were put into that position. And I think that -- I have never articulated that the project is on hold indefinitely. We have some challenges with several of these projects funding-wise, particularly when it involves the aquatics, and this particular project, as Dan described, has run into some difficulties with how to actually manage what is existing on the site. We have to get our arms around that. So we can most certainly talk with you further in your one-on-one and figure out what our options are that may be different than maybe what we thought but September 21, 2023 Page 101 still getting you and the community the goals that they're attempting to achieve. But there are -- there are definite financial hurdles that we are going to need to mull over. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Absolutely. Never since I became a commissioner have I ever shied from work. Never have I ever shied from diving into a project in any shape or form, in my district or not, and looking for solution-based decisions to be made to effectuate what needs to be done, prioritizing how we need to do what we need to do, especially with the expectations of a community like Immokalee that has been left behind. And I don't -- I'm not lobbying just, in fact, for Immokalee. And, Ms. Patterson, you and I have talked. You came in to be our County Manager behind, and when you're behind you can't get caught up. And when you're not talking about what's, in fact, transpiring, the intricacies of what's, in fact, transpiring, I have no opportunity to come up with a brainstorm idea that could potentially help. MS. PATTERSON: We understand. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Please. MS. PATTERSON: And, again, we extend our apologies for this miscommunication. And I can tell you that my intent relative to the pool, which would bring on the rest of this conversation, is our aquatics update that we're going to be providing you in October, which is not something we're necessarily looking forward to, but a conversation that has to be had. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah. There's no doubt. You know, when we go -- we go plunk 10-, $20 million aquatic facilities around, that they have to be kept -- they have to be maintained, and then we also have to be budgeting for the ultimate replacement and maintenance of those facilities as well. So I've said my piece. September 21, 2023 Page 102 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I actually just want to add onto that, because I've been burned by this a couple times, and I think the tasker is already out there. But, you know, a citizen came to the podium and wanted to know if we've spoken with Conservation Collier. Do we speak with the staff? And that's an obvious answer. But also, too, the staff need to speak with us. I got burned a couple times as well. That's why I really felt for what I thought was going on here, and that's why I thought maybe this gentleman was correct and you were sitting over here in shock, and I was having, you know, PTSD flashbacks from a couple times when citizens in my districts were told something by the county staff either at a meeting or through email or whatever, and I found out about something I totally disagreed with or was totally blindsided by from the citizen, and that was really embarrassing and totally unnecessary. We understand things happen. Things change, and we're all compromising up here. But anything that can -- you know, we're available, too. It's not just us ringing the staff up 24/7. We're reachable. So if somebody's coming to that conclusion, I mean, I'll end it here by saying, I had somebody tell a citizen something that was so inappropriate, and then they said, if you don't like it, call your commissioner; they've -- they -- it's their ordinance. And I was like, okay, all of that was untrue, but -- and it had to do with DAS and some other things. You might remember that somebody was looking for some help for DAS and got the wrong answer, and then that -- the DAS employee said, well, if you don't like it, then call your commissioner. And there was some other stuff there. So I couldn't agree more. Okay. Before we now transition back to our dock here -- and I'm going to turn it over to Commissioner Saunders in a second -- I'm September 21, 2023 Page 103 just going to -- I was going to -- I wrote down a few notes here just to lay a little bit of some reminders. None of this is directive. All five of us are commissioners. I'm not up here directing anything, but just -- you know, just some thoughts I wrote down that might transition us a little bit or sort of, you know, set the table a little bit. This is a budget meeting. It's not a meeting about one particular topic. Just to reiterate, we can't speak over each other, because, you know, Terri's sitting here trying to take notes. So, you know, we're going to really use the light system and, you know, we don't want to get into casual conversation. I would just ask, speak with specificity. You know, it's already late. This isn't the time for speeches, and, you know, to say "I love the environment," "I promised low taxes," "I support a zero-based budget," that's all great, but I would just ask my colleagues, I think the two magic things to think of now as we go into discussion is, A, how do we do it, and, B, Newton's third law. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So it's great to decide something and be really proud of it, but then we're going to continue to move on, and what we just decided, that might have been kind of aggressive or not aggressive, you know, then I want you to light up quickly and tell us then how we're going to do the next thing, because all this stuff is connected. But I know, like I said in the beginning, none of us got up this morning and figured out how we could make stupid decisions for the county, but we've got some really tough ones to make here, and I appreciate, you know, listening to the citizens. The citizens that are still here, thank you so much for coming. Thank you for your emails. We are listening. And I think 90 percent of you said, boy, that's a really difficult decision. So we got a lot of input and a few ideas. September 21, 2023 Page 104 I will just close by saying, a little bit of my disappointment, 70 speakers, and five people talked about something other than Conservation Collier. And the young gentleman that was here said, well, the reason why the room is full of people for Conservation Collier, that should show you how important it is. If we vote right now to close three libraries, who do you think's going to storm the castle at 0700 in the morning? And so all this stuff's important, all of it. And so we know that Conservation Collier got a lot of visibility and, God, I applaud the people that came here to talk about it, but the budget is way bigger than just that one program. And I just hope my colleagues, we can have a discussion, because we've got to make decisions on everything, and everything's going to have a reaction and an opposite reaction. Having said that, Commissioner Saunders, sir, the floor is yours. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm going to have to apologize right at the outset, because I'm going to say I love the environment. We're not supposed to say that. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Can you shut his mic -- are we having mic problems? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Sorry about that. I want to make a couple comments. And that discussion about the ball fields in Immokalee I think was really perfect for this evening, and the reason is we're setting budgets for the future. I've said that before. And I've always -- not always, but I've taken the position, certainly for the last five or six or seven years, that the best policy for the future for this county, because of the many unknowns that we have to deal with, is millage neutral. A lot of folks will say, well, that's a tax increase because values are going up. Okay. Fine, that's a tax increase. Clearly, if we raise our millage, there's no debate about that. September 21, 2023 Page 105 But I've felt for a long time that millage neutral was the best way to go forward for this county. I said that when -- actually, it was before Hurricane Irma we had the discussion. I said, let's stick with millage rate. We did. A few days later we had Hurricane Irma. Same thing when this year came -- this past year came up. I said the same thing. We don't know what the future's going to hold, and I suggested that we stick with millage neutral. And then we had Hurricane Ian -- or a couple -- yeah, that was the last budget that we were in. So the point was that we were always well-positioned to deal with these unforeseen circumstances, and we're going to have them again. We're going to have other hurricanes. We're going to have other problems. So I'm going to just throw out the point that I personally think we should stick with millage neutral. That may not be the case for tonight. So I'm going to suggest that if we do need to cut the budget, we can come up with some kind of a number that we need to cut, and -- as opposed to trying to go through line items tonight, because that will practically be impossible. I'd like to keep Conservation Collier at .25 mills, but if this board wants to cut say -- let's just pick a number -- $15 million out of our budget to roll the millage rate back, I'm going to suggest that we keep Conservation Collier steady at .25 mills, we take that money out of our reserve fund, the capital reserve fund, and out of fund -- I think it's -- yeah, Fund 1011, the unincorporated fund. I think Commissioner McDaniel wants to cut some money out of that. And then let staff come back during the budget year with how we can accomplish getting line-item cuts in our budget to refund that capital reserve. That would put the onus on the manager to tell us how we can accomplish that, if that's our goal. Otherwise, we're going to sit here tonight, and we're going to do September 21, 2023 Page 106 the easy thing. We're going to say, let's cut $15 million out of Conservation Collier. I don't think that's the right decision to make. But if the decision is -- I'll just reiterate this, because I've kind of gotten a little -- you know, I had a little bit of a confusion there in terms of the hurricanes and that sort of thing. If we cut $15 million out of the budget, just as an example, I'm going to suggest that we take that out of the capital reserve, out of the $18 million, we keep Conservation Collier steady at .25 mills, and the manager then will have to come back to us during the budget year on how she can spread that cut out and refund the capital reserve. That will be, I think, a responsible way to cut the budget if we're going to cut the budget, as opposed to just picking one program and saying let's cut it. So I just wanted to throw that out there for consideration as we go forward. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. I'm going to throw something out there, and then Commissioner Kowal just lit up. A question that a citizen brought up -- and I had it sort of written in a different way on my list -- but it comes down to why does the purchases of Conservation Collier not match the funding? And so what I heard -- and I talked with Ms. Patterson at the break and, you know, she admitted, and we all know here that, yeah, we lost some people and the process slowed down and, okay. Regardless of what we do tonight, that has to be fixed. Two years to bring us a parcel is ridiculous. Vote for it or not. And while we're waiting for, you know, two years to buy a $300,000 piece of property or a $3 million piece of property, money's being poured into that fund. So I've asked the question several times of how much is sitting in the coffers right now at Conservation Collier, because if you're only buying up a million or two million worth of property, you know, September 21, 2023 Page 107 last year or the year before but, you know, 25-, 30 million's being dumped in -- and I realize some of it's for maintenance, so that question got answered. But at least when I spoke to different staff -- and, you know, you get sort of varied numbers, but very close -- I just had written down here -- and I'm looking for the county manager to either correct me or somebody correct me, that there's $28 million or so of acquisition money that's already sitting there, and 40 million in maintenance. So one of the things -- I mean, we're here to propose things, and everybody's saying think out of the box and be unique and don't just sort of slash everything and go home. So I sit here and say, if -- and I do like -- I mean, I'm a big supporter of Conservation Collier. I fought for a small little lot on Marco twice and lost. But I sit here and think, it's not so much about how much money they get, but it's where it comes from. And so if they need 25 or $30 million a year, I just -- I want somebody to tell me if that money exists in their -- you know, we're being told, hey, the pot that we build for a rainy day, somebody said, hey, listen, it's not a rainy day, it's hurricane day. So that's not some slush fund. That's a fund that saved this county at times. But is there money -- and maybe -- you know, Chris, maybe it's something that you can answer. What is Conservation Collier sitting on right now? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It's right there on the screen. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'm sorry? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It's right there on the screen. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Great. Awesome. So there we go. So I was close. Okay. So 28 million, right, a little more, and 40 million in maintenance. So -- and this is not a proposal, okay. That's why September 21, 2023 Page 108 some of the emails we got, oh, you've already decided. No, we're spitballing up here. We're just talking out loud to see what's possible. If they already have that money in their coffers, to keep them at the same funding rate, could some of that money be pulled out of there, and then whatever the millage was changed to -- but in the end it gave them about the same amount of money as they would have gotten in this year. Who cares -- I care less about the millage and more about the final number Conservation Collier gets to move forward, whether it's a reduction or it's the same or whatever. But it seems like there's money to be had here that could be a little bit in excess, or somebody tell me it's not. Somebody tell me that this money should not be touched, it's got to stay here. And then it's like, okay, then, boom, I'll take that off of the possibility list. Is there something you can tell me? MR. FINN: If I could, Edward Finn. I would say to you, Commissioner, the -- I can recall a speaker saying there was approximately 7- or $8 million lined up to be transacted, and that is not a bad approximation. If you go out to the Collier County website, it identifies the status of all the properties that are in process, and roughly $8 million is lined up to either come to the Board to be transacted and/or get approval by the Board or their own board. So they're all quite close to going. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So that's why this one slide that you've produced for us that I have here that was really important to me -- and it was a hypothetical slide. If we wanted to tax the citizens at a lower millage to give Conservation Collier less money from the taxation -- and I'll just throw out the lowest. If we lowered the millage to -- and I'm not proposing this. If we lowered the millage to .149, it gives them almost 21 million. Then why can't we take 10 million out of that -- no, go September 21, 2023 Page 109 back, go back, go back. Why can't we take 10 million out of that 28- so that they're still -- they're funded now at the 20 million from the lower millage, 10 million from the land acquisition, and they get -- and they have $30 million to spend in the next calendar year. Is that -- what am I missing? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Can I interrupt? MR. FINN: You're not missing anything. I don't know if that's exactly how it would work. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Well, that's what I want to know. How would it work? Because it seems like they're sitting on a lot of funds right now. And maybe that's not the number, but how could we combine -- MR. FINN: I've got it. So you'll remember when we talked on Tuesday, I mentioned that during the hiatus of the millage, the county had -- the Board had authorized the borrowing of money from the Endowment Fund, which has subsequently been paid back. That borrowing was done so that some property could be purchased during that hiatus period. If -- in the event the Board were to reduce the annual allocation to the acquisition component and a property came along that the Board was intent on purchasing, I would think they could certainly approve that kind of internal borrowing and moving forward with a transaction or a number of transactions. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So my thought out of the box was, if you lowered the millage rate but made up -- and that gave them less money from the millage but you made up the difference in some other way, this fund, something else, so in the end they still got 30 million, let's just say, or whatever, plus or minus, that -- if I was running Conservation Collier, I would say, I don't care if it comes from 11 different pots of money. If you fund me at what I sort of expected I would get -- and it seems like there might be other pots of September 21, 2023 Page 110 money. Like they said, why just slash and gash Conservation Collier? Can we spend the money that they have more wisely? Can we fund them in a different, unique way? And then, lastly, I'll say -- and I think it was Meredith Budd who was here -- you know, when you said, oh, there's a $30 million piece of property, $40 million, you know what I would tell you is we can do anything, but we can't do everything. That might be a great piece of property to buy, but if this county can't afford it, it shouldn't just be, hey, we've got to have that much money in the pot because something might come up that is -- you know, that is valuable. But, you know, we can do anything, but we can't do everything. It might be a piece of property that we lose because it is so expensive to acquire, and we don't have the funds. So the funds aren't -- are limited, so -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Quick comment. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Let's not speak over each other. So I'll shut up. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Please. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I've got two other people lit up first before you, so if you just hold it on -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I have an answer for you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And it has to do with the rate reduction. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And that is, if we reduce the millage rate in order to accommodate and come back and replace that, someday, either us or another board has -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Oh, absolutely. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well -- either us or another September 21, 2023 Page 111 board has to raise the tax rates, and that's where the resistance is coming in. That's the short answer to -- for us, it's a pile of money. But if we reduce the rate to effectuate the savings, then that rate has to be increased at a later time. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It doesn't have to be, but it could be. I gotcha. Are you lit up for some other reason? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Oh, yeah. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: All right. Commissioner Kowal. Commissioner Kowal, then Commissioner Hall. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. Yeah, I was looking at these numbers myself, so that was kind of -- and I think we've spoke about this. But even, like, right now, if Conservation Collier -- let's just say the rolled-back rate right now is .22 or something, I think, that they're proposing as a rolled-back rate, which brings in $31 million -- and I was a little confused when the gentleman was asked about the maintenance fund. I thought automatically what they collected in taxes, they took 25 percent and moved it over to maintenance on a yearly -- on an annual basis. MR. JOHNSON: That is correct. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay, that's correct. So what he was stating about whatever proportion when they look at the maintenance, it's not true. It goes in regardless. Whatever they collect that year, 25 percent goes over to the maintenance, and it's kept in the endowment. MR. JOHNSON: Correct, and that endowment is to fund the maintenance, basically, perpetually moving forward. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah. And that's an interest-bearing account, correct? MR. JOHNSON: Correct. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. So that being said, even September 21, 2023 Page 112 at the rolled-back rate at .22, you're looking at 31 million, which is more than a million -- almost a million dollars more than what they collected last year in value, and that would bump -- with 25 percent of that moving over, we're talking 40 -- I don't know. If my math's correct, about 46 million to 48 million. MR. JOHNSON: And, Commissioner, if you look at the slide I have up there, on the bottom there you'll see the tax levy at rollback would produce, like you said, $31,000,000. Seven -- about 7.7 of that would go into the reserve, which is currently at that $40.8 million. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah. So it would be close to $48 million in the reserve at that point. MR. JOHNSON: Correct. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I think the -- this is something I had a conversation about and, you know, that reserve fund is there because it's to be used for properties that are, you know, ecological important to us, and we used $37 million out of our emergency fund during Hurricane Ian, and a large portion of that was used for properties like beach restoration, berms, planting, stormwater cleanup, waste cleanup, things that are very environmental, you know, important. And we used that out of reserve fund, and then we had 40-some-million dollars sitting in the reserve fund for their maintenance, which was never touched. And I guess what I'm trying to get at is, there's a large chunk of money that's going to go in there, even if we rolled back to .22, which is the millage rolled-back rate, just staying at that rate. I would rather take -- if we can, you take the $18 million we want to put in the Reserve Fund from the 48- that's projected to be in there, and that would leave them $30 million in the maintenance fund, which is interest-bearing which -- I don't know the exact September 21, 2023 Page 113 number what they use on a yearly basis to do maintenance, but from what I understand, the interest almost covers it on a yearly basis, correct me if I'm wrong. MR. FINN: At the rates we're -- at the yield that currently exists, which is not exactly market or what you or I might expect on our return -- the Clerk is the investment agent, and they're very conservative. But at 4 percent, they're coming close to breakeven, but it's still a little bit less than the budgeted operating expenses on the -- COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Operating expenses. So it's just a little bit -- MR. FINN: Yeah. It's a couple hundred thousand. But I will tell you that the budget's a little bit low in what it estimates because it's cautious. In the past, when the interest rates were very low, that kind of upside-down condition was a little bit of concern. But there is sufficient money in there that, even when it isn't generating enough for the yield, it still provides coverage for the program for many, many years. It's not unusual for us to run it out 50 years before it starts degrading the principal substantially. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. So I guess what I'm getting to here, just to bring us to a close is, I think this money -- I think there's a responsibility of Conservation Collier to help us replenish this money we spent on lands that were damaged during Hurricane Ian that wasn't their money for maintenance. And I think that is -- it would behoove them to say, yeah, I agree, these are important lands. These are things that were crucial to our eco -- our system when Hurricane Ian came in and damaged them, you know. And we had to use the reserve money of our 38 million that was in there, which we depleted down to about 800,000, and which we're at now. September 21, 2023 Page 114 So -- and, you know, we always plan for the worst and hope for the best. And this money sitting there, I think this is an opportunity that we could use that money to fund that reserve fund now with a portion of that money. It still leaves them plenty of money for maintenance and moving into the future. Even at millage rolled-back rate, we already show they're making a million dollars -- almost a million dollars more this year than they would last year in collection. And I know I'm going to go really far right on my opinion on this point, but I don't -- I don't have a problem with -- I would like to go in that direction and, I mean, I don't know how the rest of the Board's going to feel. And then not picking on Conservation Collier. And the fact that everybody deserves to get to the rolled-back rate and set the millage rate at 3.4548, take the $18 million out of that fund, fund the important fund that we need to have funded. As we receive FEMA money over time -- because we're still going to get checks here through the fiscal year -- take that money and start putting it back into the Conservation Collier fund, the maintenance fund, portions of it, to help get it back to speed, and -- I mean, I'm putting it out there. I mean, because at some point we're going to sit here and we're going to piecemeal. We're going to say this, that, and that. And to be fair to everybody, you know, let's just either commit or not commit, and that's my opinion, so... CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I know everybody's chomping at the bit, but let's just stay in order. Even if you've got something to comment on the last person, let's just keep order. So, Commissioner Hall, you're next, and then Commissioner McDaniel, then Commissioner Saunders. COMMISSIONER HALL: Thank you, Chair. So I mentioned it at the last hearing. I would like to see this government machine shrink, because somebody mentioned a slippery September 21, 2023 Page 115 slope tonight. And you talk about a slippery slope. Tax increase on the people has been a slippery slope, and I say it's got to stop. So I made a pledge to the people of Collier County. To 70 percent of the people in District 2 that voted for me, I made a pledge that I would not raise taxes. And, yeah, it is less than the 76 percent of the referendum, but it's an overwhelming amount of people. I have a purpose to not raise taxes and, in doing so, I've looked at several things. And by raising taxes on the people, we're going to put an affordability on the housing. That's a big thing with me. It's not just $100 a year. If we don't charge $100 a year for Conservation Collier, then -- or if we don't charge it, then we have to not fund you and -- or we have to -- if we do charge the 100 a year, we have to fund you, then we also have to take it from the people to make up for the difference. So what I'm proposing is this: The difference between the rolled-back rate money-wise to the proposed budget money-wise is $62 million. We've got $14 million available when we add the TIFs back into the General Fund budget, 14 million. Conservation Collier, if we take the .25 mill and tax the people, that will generate 35 -- almost $35 million. Let's just call it 34- this year. And if I took only 5 million of the reserves from the budget, instead of funding the reserves 18 million, we fund them 13 million and take 5 million of those reserves, we're going to come very close -- we're going to -- that leaves me 9 million away from not raising taxes, keeping Collier County great. Everything rolls; everybody wins. In that 9 million, there's about 2 and a half million of stormwater capital, and there's some other money that we can play with that I've talked to the county staff with. Anyway, I think I can get us about $4 million away. And with -- I don't have the knowledge to find that September 21, 2023 Page 116 4 million, but I think it's in there, and that's without cutting any expenses. That's taking the budget as its proposed, keeping everything rolling just like it is. Now, I say that to say this: If I don't give any money to Conservation Collier, that doesn't mean that I'm against the program. That doesn't mean that I don't think conservation is important. That doesn't mean that I don't think there's great value in it. I think all of that stuff, but I don't want to raise taxes on the people. So why would I want to fund a program 35 more million dollars that they've got $28 million already in the bank that they can't spend or that they have trouble spending? I propose doing this for one year, and in that year, I would like to hire an outside consultant to come in and take a look at all of our county operations, all of our internal process, reengineer where they think that we can save money and do things differently, and take those recommendations and rework this massive government machine, and whatever amount of money that we save, then we'll -- we can use that money to take -- to go right back to business as usual with Conservation Collier up to .25 mills. But we can work on the spending side for that year while Conservation Collier kicks on. It's alive. It's well. You're able to purchase every property you want to purchase. You've got $40 million in the maintenance account. If something comes up in the middle of the year that's a $50 million project and you say, we would have to pass on it, no, you don't. That's why you go to the bank and borrow it. You borrow it against your -- you borrow it. And then the next year when fund you 35-, 36 more million dollars, you're right back in the saddle. I've thought about this for a long time. And I want it to be a win-win situation for everyone. Conservation Collier wins because they still get to function. We're not pausing anything. We're September 21, 2023 Page 117 encouraging you -- if I could approve all of your money for purchases, that would be great with me, but at the same time, we've only purchased $5.2 million properties -- $5.2 million in the last two years out of this program, and all of those properties are undevelopable properties. They're already conservation. They're wetlands. There's nobody -- there's no threat of the developers coming in trying to take that property from you. So, yes, it was voted on by the people; yes, it's well-funded; yes, the market's higher, but why -- that's another reason. Why would we want to pay high prices at the top of the market for property that's not appealable to a developer or not -- not appealable to somebody to put a house on or even a home? That makes those properties less valuable in the market because there's no demand on it, and that's common sense. Yes, ma'am. And so here is another deal. Everybody that's in the room, we're not telling you that you can't give money to Conservation Collier. There's a woman right back here that ran the PAC. You can have -- everybody that wants to still give to that program this year can do so and not even be limited. You can give as much money as you want to. But to put it on the backs of the taxpayers, to put it on the backs of those that are working hard and to raise taxes in order to do that, I think, is almost selfish. I propose not to fund them at all this year. Take a good hard look at the county. Take the 14 million from the adjusted amount. 34 million that we would take -- that we would levy for Conservation Collier, move that .25 mill to the General Fund, take 5 million of the reserves, so we still give them -- the reserves 18 million, take 2.5 million of the stormwater capital, and that puts me at $4.1 million away. We can either cut spending that much, or we can find that money somewhere else. You know, we're sitting here trying to split dollars and trying to September 21, 2023 Page 118 give money away, and I -- I remember when I was first a commissioner. I wanted to do a coffee with the commissioner, and I wanted to buy doughnuts and coffee for the public, and the staff told me, yes, Commissioner, you can do that. You can buy coffee and doughnuts for the public, but you can't have a doughnut. So here I am, we're trying to deal with millions of dollars, and I can't have a damn doughnut. And so I think we need to take a good, strong look at that. And so that's -- you know, you say, well, if you go to rollback spending, you're setting a precedent. No, we're not. We're going to take a good, hard look at this government machine and see where we can run it efficiently and run it more smoothly. If I'm wrong, we can correct it. We can always say next year, hey, I was wrong. Let's go back to the .25 mills. We're going to have to take a look at the regular -- you know, we'll have to adjust things like they are. But I think that we can do this. I think this -- I think this group up here has the -- has the ability to take and do the hard work, and I'm willing to do that, and that's what I promised the voters. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Can I ask him a question? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Absolutely. Just don't talk over each other. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: No, I didn't. I was listening, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Chris, do the math for me again. So your proposition is -- COMMISSIONER HALL: We got 14 million extra from the adjusted -- when we add the TIF properties back in. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: TIF properties, tax increment funding, of what? September 21, 2023 Page 119 COMMISSIONER HALL: There's Chris. MR. JOHNSON: Commissioner, if I may, that was from the adjusted amount you see there on your taxable value, and that got you to what we actually collected last year. So when you're looking at rollback, the rolled-back amount is calculated utilizing the last year's -- last year's tax, minus the TIF, plus the growth. So, essentially, the TIF -- you can't change the TIF because it correlates directly with the millage rate. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Those are commitments that we make for adjustments to -- or for the MSTUs and the beautifications and those sort of things. I don't think we have the discretion to -- I mean, we have the discretion to do virtually anything. I just -- I was trying to get my arms -- so you're talking about zero funding this year. Leave the rate the same but tax collection at zero at Conservation Collier. That's 35 million. COMMISSIONER HALL: Thirty-five. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Then you had 14 million in the TIF. MR. JOHNSON: And if I may, if the millage rate is reduced, the TIF districts will reduce along with that millage rate. It won't be the whole -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: The whole 14 -- MR. JOHNSON: The whole TIF, correct. COMMISSIONER HALL: It would be a million or two. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let me just say one thing. One of the things I told Mr. Johnson and Mr. Finn when we were prepping for this is if we start doing math in public, and they immediately know that it's wrong, to interrupt us so we don't have a 30-minute meeting of this great, wonderful algorithm -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Speak up. September 21, 2023 Page 120 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- that they're going to -- and they already know that, to interrupt us if we're saying something that's not -- that the math didn't work out. Don't let us do funny math up here. MR. FINN: And I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. I've made this plea to the Board when we were discussing this on one or two or three occasions. If the Board has some numbers in mind, we probably should talk about the numbers and not necessarily worry about the millage. We're planning to take a break. We will report back the impact on the millage, and we will endeavor to do so accurately. So if I may, Commissioner Hall, if I'm looking at Chris' table here, and one of the extreme -- extreme number that was discussed the last time the Board was in session on this matter was the concept of reducing Conservation Collier to 20 million. That is a $14 million delta, if you will, that you see on the paper today. Now, that's $14 million that I'm familiar with. I don't know that the Board, as a body, plans to go there, but that's the $14 million that I can put a finger on. COMMISSIONER HALL: I was talking about the difference between the adjusted -- the adjusted tax dollars from last year to what -- the rolled-back dollars. I was under the impression there was about $14 million, and that was when we talked yesterday, when we added the TIF back in. And I may totally misunderstand this. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'm not suggesting you do. The math just wasn't working in my brain. COMMISSIONER HALL: Okay. So we have 14 million that's from the adjusted figures, then we add the 35 million -- just call it 34-, because that's what I'd already added -- and then we have 5 million that we're going to take from the reserves. So instead of putting 23 million in the reserves, we put 18 million in the reserves, September 21, 2023 Page 121 and that left me within, I think -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Nine million, subtract -- COMMISSIONER HALL: -- 9 million, and then we had 2 and a half million of stormwater capital. That gets me to 6.5, and then there was another 2 million or so that was -- we could find. And I got to around -- I got to within $4 million, and that's at the rolled-back rate matching tax dollars and taking into consideration the growth and then taking a good, hard look at this -- at this machine and streamlining it and getting the processes, and then next year hopefully whatever money that we find that we can cut, then we can go with that. And that's a win for Collier. That's a win for Conservation Collier because they operate just as fast as they can go. It's a win for the taxpayers because we're not raising taxes. And it will be a win for us when we take a look and see where we can streamline this and get it going in a better fashion. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Now is my light. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Your light, and then Commissioner Saunders. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. Now, the first proclamation that I want to make is this process is -- this process is not going to be the same next year as what we've been going through here to get here today. It's already been admitted. It's already been discussed. I know I've had discussions with our senior staff. We are going to -- and I think I volunteered last Tuesday to lead on the zero-based budget. And I heard several of you may be interested in that as well. So Commissioner Saunders spoke early on about when he and I first came into office, and Irma came upon us, and we had $100 million worth of cleanup work that we had to do. The unfortunate circumstance that came with that is we stopped, deferred September 21, 2023 Page 122 an enormous amount of our capital projects in order to take care of that immediate cleanup, and that's a big problem. The next years, when we established the 301 fund and started with the capital replacement -- capital asset replacement and maintenance funding that we were doing, and we plunked 5 million in, 5 million in, and now we're having discussions about what we're, in fact, going to do. I have a thought, and I'm just throwing it out there because, again, I've lobbied for seven years for rate reductions and some kind of a break for our electorate along the way. But what if -- what if we stayed rate neutral, took the extra $62 million that comes with staying rate neutral, held spending at the recommendations that the Board put out with the Board recommendations, and took the -- took that extra money, that extra $62 million, and plowed it into reserves? Now, it still, effectively, ends up being a tax increase to the electorate, but it's a thought. It's something I'd like you folks -- and this is a difficult thing for people to understand. We're not allowed to talk about this behind that wall. All these ideas, all these things that we're coming up with is while Terri's sitting down here writing down all my misspoken words and the lighting's not good for my complexion. So these are difficult times and difficult decisions for us. But one of the thoughts -- because I don't disagree with Commissioner Saunders about us planning for the future. I don't think there's a person in this room with regard to Conservation Collier that will not [sic] disagree that adjustments to that program need to be made in the acquisition time, utilization of the funds, how we do what we do and what we don't do with those monies. That's all coming, but it's not going to be done tonight. So that's one proposition that I have: Staying rate neutral, holding spending at the proposed budgeted Board recommendations September 21, 2023 Page 123 from the beginning, and plowing the rest of the money into the reserves, into that 301 account. That's a -- it's not discretionary, but it's a semi-discretionary fund where we can triage and utilize and have certain availabilities of those funds. It's a thought. I have other -- I have other thoughts that I'll come to after we have some more discourse. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'll just -- before I go to Commissioner Saunders. If we did that, how is -- how does it affect Conservation Collier? Conservation Collier pauses under your plan? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Conservation Collier -- Conservation Collier gets the millage neutral. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Amount. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Millage neutral amount, 34-, 35 million. We make the adjustments in Conservation Collier to be able to draw down on Conservation Collier in the event of a natural disaster or utilization for other acquisitions for appropriations, for acquisition for Parks and Rec, roads and bridges, so ons and so forth. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And that millage neutral, just for the record, keeps them at .25? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Correct. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And then you're just moving money from -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And there is no -- there is no -- but we go in budgetarily back into hold the spending -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Right. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- so that that extra money doesn't get plowed into the other departments, but it's put into reserves for -- for other necessities that may, in fact, come about. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let me go to Commissioner Saunders -- September 21, 2023 Page 124 COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It's just a thought. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- who's been patiently waiting. Sir, the floor is yours. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I need to ask a few questions for Commissioner McDaniel, just so I understand what you're talking about. We stay at millage neutral -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- Conservation Collier would stay at .25 mills -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Correct. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- but you're saying $62 million would go into reserves. So I'm not sure how Conservation Collier would still be at .25. I'm just trying to understand. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well, again, I was hoping if I did math wrong somebody was going to correct me. My numbers over here show that there's approximately a $62 million tax increase by staying rate neutral. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: No, no. That would be the -- oh, yeah, staying rate neutral -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Staying rate neutral. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Correct, correct. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I wasn't doing the rollback. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Right, right. So you have 62 million if we stay at millage neutral. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Correct. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So the question, then, is, you said Conservation Collier would stay at .25 mills. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: That's correct. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: But then you also said that September 21, 2023 Page 125 62 million would go into reserves. Part of that -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Not all of the 62 million would be able to go into the reserves. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: The part of the 62 million that goes to Conservation Collier would come out of that $62 million -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. I didn't articulate that very well, sir. Not all of it would go into reserves. It's spread between what Conservation Collier gets, but the departmental hold on the spending would be the -- would be the -- basically, would be somewhere, plus/minus, 30-some-odd million -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I wouldn't have any problem with that, because then that gives the manager the opportunity during this budget year to figure out how they're going to deal with the reduction in the county's expenditures, because that balance is going into reserves, and then we can decide, if necessary, that we can take some of those reserves for something that comes up. So I don't have -- I don't have an issue personally with that. I don't know if anybody else would be supportive of that, but I don't have a problem with that. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It's one of the -- I have another idea after we get done discussing -- it's just one of the ideas that I have. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Does it have to do with this? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yes. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Oh, good. I didn't know if it was an idea about the Immokalee fields or Rock Road or just -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Quit. Quit. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: No, that's good discussion. Good discussion. Okay. Who else? Question? Staff? September 21, 2023 Page 126 COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Chew on that for a second. MR. JOHNSON: If I could ask one question, Commissioner McDaniel. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yes, sir. MR. JOHNSON: When you say "back to what staff had suggested," are you saying policy? Are you saying rollback? Just -- the 62 million is the rollback number. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Sixty-two million is the rate neutral. COMMISSIONER HALL: It's the rate neutral. MR. JOHNSON: It's -- the savings of 62- that you were talking about to push into the reserves would be the difference between rate neutral and rollback. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah. I wasn't talking about a savings. I was talking about rate neutral, which is an increase of $62 million in your revenue, and I'm going to give it to you today. MR. JOHNSON: Correct, total rollback. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It's an increase in that revenue, and -- but we hold spending to the Board's policy direction with regard to the increase year over year and take the spread and put those monies into reserves. MR. JOHNSON: Gotcha. Thank you for the clarification. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let me just say something to make sure we're talking about the budget and just not beating around Conservation Collier. There was a lot of things on the unfunded or underfunded list that had a lot of -- there's a lot of funds available there. So before we sort of punt and maybe do the thing that's easy by talking about, you know, three different funds and one millage rate, there's an awful lot -- you know, we had a citizen that came up here and said, you September 21, 2023 Page 127 know, several things are increasing by significant amounts. So let's separate rumor from fact. You know, let me just throw out there, Supervisor of Elections, right, I mean, we had a citizen that came up here and said they're exponentially being increased. But is that a -- is that a fund that we can pull from and touch? MR. FINN: The answer -- the answer -- if I may, I'll give you a nominally extended answer. The Supervisor of Elections came in and asked for an increase in their budget to accommodate the vote -- the elections that are scheduled for next fiscal year. It's not unusual for the Supervisor to do so. That number, order of magnitude, was 800,000-plus dollars. The Board had an opportunity to look at that, and they did so. Typically, constitutional officers, when they come in with a budget request, they're given an appropriate review, and typically what they require is usually what the Board -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Well -- and that's the answer I wanted to get on the record, because there's some funds, even when the Sheriff was being batted around here, that's not something we could attack. So there was a few people at the podium that made really eloquent comments that actually we can't do. And so -- and they might not have known that. But some of the other things on the list here -- you know, I want to make sure, before we exit it all, that all of us take a look at these things here, and if one of the proposals is, hey, my proposal, you know, leaves everything alone here and funds everything and, you know, nobody takes a cut, you know, then great. I'm sitting here trying to do the math, and it's not working out for me. Something's going to have to take a cut. But there's some programs on here that are also big numbers. And I know that, you know, it's been said, hey, we might not want to September 21, 2023 Page 128 go line by line, but maybe we do. You know, the people that work in all these areas want us to go line by line. Like I said, close three libraries tonight, and this room's filled with 300 people that are all ticked off at five commissioners because we closed three libraries. I'm not saying we're doing that, but there's an awful of lot -- lot of numbers on here and very important services to citizens that, you know, I want to make sure we don't forget to talk about, and there might be money to be had here. One of the things I said at the last meeting was a phased approach. You know, I know the security team wants a half a million dollars, but maybe they only get $200,000, and then, boom, we have 300,000, and you could -- you know, the millions that might be missing from Commissioner Hall's algorithm or something that might be missing from Commissioner McDaniel's might exist right in here. So, you know, keep us -- keep us honest on that, and let's not lose sight of the budget discussion tonight and not just Conservation Collier. MR. FINN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for helping us out. So just going back to -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: You don't mean that, but that's kind of you to say. MR. FINN: The clarification from Commissioner McDaniel, in my mind, would suggest that this and the next page -- next page, Chris. Next page. Next page -- would all be wiped out with the exception of reserves going up by those amounts. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So none of those things would get -- would get funded. They would all -- they would all zero out. And, obviously, they would have their normal budget, and that was one of the things we were clarifying is that if the library asked for 1.1, it's above what they needed. September 21, 2023 Page 129 MR. FINN: Let's go back to the first one, Chris. And if you see -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Parks. MR. FINN: -- we've kind of added a feature to this. The Parks budget is $34 million -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Oh, perfect, yeah. MR. FINN: -- including this 1.1. The library budget is 9.5, including the 335K. DAS is 5 million, including that 170K. Museum is shown at 2.7, including that 77K. The growth management studies and the growth management amendment studies are not presently budgeted at all. So -- but I think, consistent with what I heard from the Board, is without advocating for any particular position, if we were to move those to reserves, the County Manager would then have another opportunity to reconsider what they are and bring them back before the Board for another evaluation. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: That was my goal. And, by the way, I have no interest -- forgive me. I am No. 1 on the list. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: No, go ahead. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I have no interest in cutting stormwater and the swale programs. There again, you heard me talking about being behind. There's something that we're direly behind in. So my suggestion wasn't -- wasn't shot at this -- at this at all. This is a sheet that we have that talks about stormwater, and there's 2 and a half million in capital and 2.8 million in the swale program for Eastern Collier County that hasn't been touched in 30 years, so... MR. FINN: The portion of that extended page you're referring to, Chris just put that up on the slide. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: There he did. A quick question back to the Supervisor of Elections. Has September 21, 2023 Page 130 anybody got any history? Because, you know, we got information that a 20 percent increase was a lot of money. The Supervisor of Elections, every single time there's an election year, in the three times that I've actually seen an election come about, has been 7-, $800,000 a year. That's about the annual increase in expense; is that correct? COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I have an answer. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Do you? COMMISSIONER KOWAL: This is a presidential year, so they have to run two primaries this year. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: They have to run a primary in March and then another one in August. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And so -- COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I think it's historically, every four years, it's a little larger grab. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So that's where I think that extra money's coming from. No offense to anybody else, but -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Hey, I don't mean any disrespect. I just wanted to say it out loud that the -- I went through the Supervisor's budget, and the increase -- the requested increase was, in my brain, consistent with the other three elections that I've traveled through, and the off-years where there wasn't much, if any, of an increase other than what we did for payroll increases and things when we established the merit pay and so on. So I just -- I wanted to clarify that. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Commissioner Kowal, you have the floor, sir, and then, Commissioner Saunders, you're next. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. Yeah, I think that's why I was proposing, you know, using this money in this maintenance fund, you know, because I think a lot of things are all -- kind of September 21, 2023 Page 131 thinking the same way, I think, with Commissioner Hall. You know, getting us close to this rolled-back rate and taking the 18 million out of the 48 million, which they'll be at this year with the increase of the 7-point-whatever million from the 31 million they'll get even at rolled-back rate. Then that 18- will replace the 18- in reserve, and we were going to use that -- we were going to take that money from somewhere else to have it in the reserve, and that could be used somewhere else to offset some money, and use the money from the maintenance fund to subsidize that 18 million. And, like I said, I don't want to -- I'm not saying I want to pick on Conservation Collier, but I think at this time in this stage in our lives and what's going on around us -- and, like I said, we don't have control over this inflation. We don't have control over the cost of insurance right now. We don't have these controls. We don't have that control as this board or this body up here. But we do owe it to the taxpayers that we get this as low as we can, and to the point -- like I said, I don't have a problem going to the 3.4548 if we could subsidize some of these programs with the money inside that maintenance fund, which is fat. And they're not going to use it over this next year. They're historically showing that they're only using maybe a small percentage of it because the majority of it comes out of their interest rate they're making anyways on their initial 40 million, or whatever it was before that, which will be at 48-. Then we'll take back -- take it down to 30-, so -- even if you dip into -- a couple hundred thousand dollars into it just for their own maintenance and subsidize the money we already spent for maintenance on properties after the hurricane. So that's -- you know, and this way everybody's -- everybody's taking a cut. Conservation Collier is taking a cut. Everybody's taking a cut. We're just all being fair. September 21, 2023 Page 132 So that's my opinion, so... COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Chairman, could I ask Commissioner Kowal a couple questions here? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I've got my light there. Just so I understand what I think you're proposing -- I'll need some clarification. On Conservation Collier, we would -- in terms of the general budget, we would go to the rolled-back rate, which is .2224 mills, and -- but in terms of our overall millage, are you agreeing with Commissioner McDaniel to stay at the millage neutral rate and put that balance into reserves? COMMISSIONER KOWAL: No. I'm saying I'm making an even playing field here. I'm not only going to pick on Conservation Collier and bring them down to .22. I'm going to bring everybody down to the rolled-back rate and use the money from the reserve fund to subsidize some of these programs that we think are important, like the 18 million you want to put in reserve, and take that from their maintenance fund, not from their buying fund, but their maintenance fund. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So you would want to go to the rolled-back millage rate across the board, obviously. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Across the board. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: That's a $62 million reduction in the revenue that -- if we stayed at millage neutral. And I know that Commissioner Hall had -- that's what Commissioner Hall had suggested as well. COMMISSIONER HALL: That's what I want. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Why don't we see if there's three votes to go back to the rolled-back millage rate. If there aren't three votes -- because I don't think Commissioner McDaniel wants to September 21, 2023 Page 133 go to the rolled-back millage. I don't know. I don't know if Commissioner LoCastro wants to go back. But if we have three commissioners that don't want to go to the rolled-back millage rate, then we can kind of stop talking about that level and then figure out where we can go. So, I mean, I would ask you, Commissioner LoCastro. You've heard -- right now we've got two commissioners that want to go to rolled-back millage rate, we have two commissioners that don't want to go to the rolled-back millage rate. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I haven't said I don't yet. I only -- COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Oh, I was just looking at your -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I only proposed one idea. I proposed one idea. I have more. I only get one light and one time. Forgive me for talking out of turn, but you're -- it was a suggestion that I made to maybe move us down the road. I'm -- so, there. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'll echo something that Mr. Finn said that I -- that is how I feel. I focus a little less on the millage rates and rollback and not that -- don't focus on them, but sometimes there's other ways to get to the money, to the fund. Let's -- I'll just use Conservation Collier as an example. You could -- you could roll back their millage rate and still get them 30-something-million dollars if we look at some of the other funds, their maintenance fund or -- you know, like Commissioner Hall said, everybody's got to tighten their belt a little bit. So some creative use of other dollars still could give them an amount that's close to what they would have gotten had we done nothing or even the exact amount and still make a change to the millage rate because we move some dollars around. So that's the proposal I was hoping to hear. It's not so much September 21, 2023 Page 134 pinning us in the corner and just say, are you for the rolled-back rate? Are you for the neutral rate? I'm for looking at all the dollars that exist. And some of that's been thrown around. I like a lot what Commissioner McDaniel said. I'm over here trying to make sure that the math works out because it flows close to what I like. But I like pieces of what Commissioner Hall said. And so I think we're getting close to something. But I'm not here just saying millage neutral, rollback. I mean, there's a lot of money to throw around here. And I think something sort of in the middle. I think we're close, but I'm not ready to say, you know, I'm millage neutral or millage -- or the rolled-back rate until I see where the dollars are going. I've got everybody lit up here, but you've already sort of spoken. Commissioner Saunders, I still have you here. Do you have something to say? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: No. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Commissioner McDaniel, do you have something to say? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I do. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Idea No. 2. One of the -- and Commissioner Hall and Commissioner Kowal, you know, the effect -- the effectuation of a $62 million tax savings is a little tricky for me. I have a -- I have a happy number of a $14 million reduction which brings Conservation Collier back to about 20 million. I liked your suggestions the other day, Commissioner LoCastro, with not completely defunding Conservation Collier, but that $20 million number I thought was palatable. I would suggest that we pull 18 million out of their reserves that are held for their -- for the escrow for maintenance and move that into other funding avenues for the other expenses that are being September 21, 2023 Page 135 proposed here that we offset, but reduce the -- reduce the rate for $18 million worth. I want to see -- I talked with staff yesterday, because I wanted to -- I wanted to pull the entire 5 million a year that was appropriated before you and I, Commissioner Saunders, came into office, for the landscape median construction increase in the unincorporated area. And Ed negotiated a three-year plan where we reduce the taxes in the incorporated area by a million and a half a year and then -- MR. FINN: Did I say -- did I say each year? I can't -- I'm a little fuzzy on that detail. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: You peeled me back from 5 million yesterday, or on Tuesday, to a million and a half, and then I added in a year, which in three years I get almost my 5 million back. MR. FINN: Yes, sir. You're on fire. Thank you. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And then -- and then one of the discussions we need to have -- and this is going to push your button, Commissioner Saunders, so I'm sorry. But it's my understanding that we have 7 million in this budget for the construction of that golf course at the Golden Gate Golf Course, and I think that needs to be set aside for right now. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: You're right, that is pushing a button. I don't know what to say about that. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And on that point, when I add up those numbers, I come up to a $40 million -- $40 million savings and -- when I'm hitting on -- when I'm hitting on those -- on those items. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let me just clarify one thing. When we spoke at our last meeting, I wasn't proposing bringing Conservation Collier down to 20 million, but we were throwing numbers out there to see how algorithms could be worked, and my point was, hypothetically, if we brought them to 20 million but they September 21, 2023 Page 136 were able to take 14 million out of the 28 million they already have in acquisition or they could dip into their maintenance funds a little bit, that the 20 million, plus some other creative use of money they already have in reserves could keep them at 34 million, and I was just trying to be creative, which I think is what we're all trying to do here. And I thought there was some -- there was some sort of equal -- equal medium where the end result was maybe the same or close to it, but the millage rate was maybe less because they were going to make better use of the money that they currently have in reserves or for maintenance or, you know, all of the above, and I still think that that's a viable possibility. Commissioner Hall. COMMISSIONER HALL: I just want to reiterate if we go to the rolled-back rate and we take the money, we're not -- we haven't hardly bothered any of the expense side of our budget. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: No. COMMISSIONER HALL: I'm going to take 5 million from reserves and 2.5 million from capital -- from stormwater capital, and that's basically it. We're going to pay for everything else in this budget with the -- with the swap of revenue. And then have I got the resolve -- are you-all interested at all in streamlining our processes and finding where we can save money? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Absolutely. COMMISSIONER HALL: I mean, I don't want to just say it just to say it. So that would give us a year. And I so appreciate the comment about I don't want to do it this way next year. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It's on my notes. COMMISSIONER HALL: So that's -- I don't see it as anyone losing at all, not even at all. Conservation Collier has more money than they can spend, and we're going to kick them right back -- right back in gear in 2025, but this gives us a year to take a look and to do September 21, 2023 Page 137 this hard stuff and to get it done, and I think we will be proud of our efforts if we can do that. And that's not raising taxes on the people, not one iota. The school board has. The City of Naples has. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Everybody has. COMMISSIONER HALL: I don't want to. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: But with that proposal, you'd be pausing Conservation Collier for a year, right? COMMISSIONER HALL: Just the funding, not the activity. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Right. If they wanted to buy something, they'd have to use the reserve funds that they have, is your proposal. COMMISSIONER HALL: If something came up, yes, we work that out, because I don't want them to lose any opportunities. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. COMMISSIONER HALL: But the way, historically, it's happened, that's not reality. That's a big what-if. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let me go to Commissioner Kowal. Sir. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah. I'm just -- I'm hearing what Commissioner Hall's saying, and I think we're both trying to say we want to get close -- or get to this 3 point -- I had it written in there -- the rolled-back rate, 3.4548. In what I propose, though, you know, using this chunk of money that's out there that Conservation Collier's really not using right now, you know, to subsidize some of these other programs we think are important and still go back to the rolled-back rate and, with my proposal, Conservation Collier still walks away with $44 million. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: How? How? COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Well, because they have 8 million set aside -- they have about 8 million in purchases, they have 28- right now in the coffer, then they're going to get 31 million, September 21, 2023 Page 138 even at the rolled-back rate. So if you take the 7 million, move it over to their maintenance fund, that leaves 24 million that they collected. Now you add that to your 20 million, that's $44 million that Conservation Collier's going to get by the end of the -- for the fiscal year. And we're still -- we have money, then, we can subsidize. Like I said, the 18 million in our funds, and then there's still 30 million left in the reserve maintenance fund that, if we need to subsidize anything else, it's there. And then, eventually, as we get FEMA money that we are owed by the federal government from this storm, we can then roll that back into their maintenance fund. I don't know -- I'm just asking if that's something we can do. And then we still have the rolled-back millage rate, and then we have the additional 18 million that we were going to use for -- to put in our reserve fund. Then that's something we can use to subsidize some of these other things and still be at the -- because you look at the numbers, even at the rolled-back rate, everything goes up. We don't go down. We go up from last year. And we don't even know at this point -- which I know probably was a pretty good housing market over the past year, there's probably a lot of resale that went in. We're going to get a lot of -- we don't even know what percentage we might end up with in this next fiscal year, because every time somebody sells a house, it's going to be now taxed at the new price that it was bought for, not the original -- you know, not the lower estimated value. It's going to come back in at a higher assessed value every time these properties change hands. And we had a lot of people move into Collier County over the past year. And we won't even see the effect of that until this fiscal year, because that's when they're going to get hit with their higher taxes. So I think there's money out there we don't even know we have, you know, that may be coming in. So that's -- that's kind of where September 21, 2023 Page 139 I'm trying to say here. So I don't know -- I mean -- COMMISSIONER HALL: Can I clarify that, Rick? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall, and then Commissioner Saunders. COMMISSIONER HALL: What you're saying is, if you look at the tax dollars that we collected last year, it's 529 million. If we roll the -- if we go to the rolled-back rate, that figure's 553 million so that's a -- nearly a $25 million difference, and that 25 million is the growth that you're talking about. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yes. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Increase. COMMISSIONER HALL: That's an increase. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Increase at the rolled-back rate. COMMISSIONER HALL: So we get 25 more million with the rolled-back rate from the increase of growth; is that not correct? MR. JOHNSON: Commissioner, if I may, that's where that 12 million for the TIF comes in. So the actual collections last year were 542-. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So we still collected -- COMMISSIONER HALL: Okay. So there's a $13 million difference. MR. JOHNSON: Yep, precisely. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: But the TIF's not figured into the rolled-back rate on that number, then? MR. JOHNSON: What I'm talking about is that adjusted column for last year. So when Commissioner Hall was speaking to the, I believe it was 529-, the actual number that includes the TIF in that last year's column is 542-. COMMISSIONER HALL: So we collected 542- last year? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. September 21, 2023 Page 140 COMMISSIONER HALL: And with the rolled-back rate, plus growth, that would produce us nearly 554 million. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Eleven million extra. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: That's what I'm saying. You still have to roll that in regardless, the TIF. It will be at a lower rate, because the millage rate will be lower, but you're still going to collect it. MR. JOHNSON: Correct. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. That's just what I wanted clarity on. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders, sir. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Chris, in terms of, if we went to the rolled-back millage rate, give us a little bit of an understanding of what that does to the constitutional officers, the Sheriff in particular. But does that affect their budget request in any way? COMMISSIONER HALL: No, everything's funded. MR. FINN: The answer to that, sir, would be the Board's direction in that regard. The Board ultimately reviews and approves their budget absent the Sheriff going to the governor. It would be up to the Board. If the Board directed the County Manager to find it within her side of the budget, that certainly would be something the Board could direct her to do. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: What is the Sheriff's budget request? COMMISSIONER HALL: A lot. MR. JOHNSON: This year for operating it's $254 million. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Two hundred and fifty-four million. All right. So out of the 554 million that we would get in revenue, if we went to the rolled-back millage rate, 254 million of that goes to the Sheriff; is that correct? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Plus/minus. September 21, 2023 Page 141 COMMISSIONER HALL: Forty-eight percent. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Well, the increase is 16 million from the last one, right? MR. JOHNSON: That is correct. The operating budget for them is $254 million. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. So the Sheriff's budget is 254 million. We're talking about the rolled-back millage rate, which will generate 554 million. So that leaves the county basically, for all other -- for all other uses, 300 million if we go to the rolled-back millage rate. Now, if you take all the other constitutional officers out of that -- I know they had a small budget -- what does that leave us with? MR. JOHNSON: Give me one second here, Commissioner. The total for the constitutionals is $311 million. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. If you'll deduct 311- from 554-. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: That's not much. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Is 243 million. Is that -- is that correct? MR. JOHNSON: Let me do the math on my calculator quick. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. I did it, but that's fine. I probably did it wrong. But the point I'm trying to get to is where we're talking about a pretty drastic reduction in revenue -- but at the same time the Sheriff's budget increase was how much? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Seven. MS. PATTERSON: Seven percent. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So what's the number? COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Sixteen million. MR. FINN: Was that 16 million on that, Chris? MR. JOHNSON: I got it right here. Hang on. I got to calculate it again. I apologize. September 21, 2023 Page 142 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: And while he's doing that, I'm going to -- MR. JOHNSON: It's about $20 million. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: About 20 million? All right. So I guess the point I'm trying to get at is when we -- we're going to be setting the millage rate tonight. If we -- if we just at this point, without some research, just simply say we're going to go to the rolled-back millage rate, I'm not sure I understand what the implications are. We can't go back from that, and that's what I'm worried about. So when Commissioner McDaniel was talking about keeping millage neutral but putting all those monies into reserves, you know, that would give us the opportunity to do exactly what Commissioner Hall wants to do, hire an expert to help us with zero-based budgeting, help us determine where the fat is -- because right now we're all talking about this bloated government. I haven't seen the bloated government. Maybe there are some departments that have some dead wood in it. That's true of any organization. But I don't see this huge amount of bloat in this government. If we make the decision tonight to go the rolled-back rate, we are not going to recover from that next year. We're not going to roll the millage rate forward again because that's clearly a tax increase. COMMISSIONER HALL: Time out. Don't worry about rate. Think about dollars. So next year if our budget is not -- we don't require $615 million. If we cut, just say, the fat out of it, and we only require 540-, we can still raise the millage to get to that amount of money, and we haven't raised taxes. Even though the rate comes up, as long as that -- as long as I get my tax bill at home and I look at it and I say, oh, good, I don't owe more than I did last year, I don't care what the rate is to get there. My bill hasn't raised. That's not a tax increase. September 21, 2023 Page 143 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, there will be a tax increase next year if you raise the millage rate. I don't understand how you're doing it. COMMISSIONER HALL: It would be -- it would be a tax increase next year if we didn't -- if we didn't cut expenses any. If we keep the same expenses, yes, next year we would have to raise taxes to pay the bills. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I guess the point that I'm trying to make is we're going to set a millage rate tonight, and if we set the millage rate at the rolled-back millage rate and it turns out that that is a disastrous decision, that's the end of the story. I mean, that -- you know, we raise rates again and try to recover from it. But what I'm suggesting is, let's keep the -- if we don't keep the millage rate neutral, we can certainly engage in a small reduction in the millage rate to give some relief but not all the way to the rolled-back millage rate, because you may be creating a problem that you just don't know that you're creating. I don't know if there's a problem there. COMMISSIONER HALL: I'm not concerned about rate. I'm concerned about actual dollars. Whatever the rate is to get to those dollars is the rate. So if property values are way up here and we stay millage neutral, we're going to raise 62 more million dollars for the county. If property values -- so if you lower that millage rate a little bit and don't collect the 62 million, then you say I've cut taxes, but you have only lessened the amount that you're raising. You haven't stayed -- you haven't -- you haven't -- the taxpayer still pays more money. You've just lessened the amount of what you're proposing. So if property values decrease and they just plummet, then you have to raise the millage rate to get to that same amount of dollars, but you haven't raised taxes. You just raised the rate to get to -- you haven't increased taxes or you even haven't decreased them. So the September 21, 2023 Page 144 rate is relative to property values. So what I'm looking at is actual dollars. And it's not taking the 853 million because I'm getting us -- I'm finding us additional funding -- additional funding and small reductions in two other areas to get to the 615 million that we need to operate. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: We don't need that money to operate, and that's the rationale for going to the rolled-back rate. We got along okay on $542 million that was collected last year. We got along okay with that. And so by going to the rolled-back rate, that is -- and that stays at the -- we're talking about rate again, but we're -- with the dollars, we got a lot -- my rationale is, our community didn't suffer on $542 million of taxation collected. There may have been areas. MR. FINN: And forgive me, Mr. Chairman. My impression from the previous discussions is that we kind of got over the hump of at least starting with where we were with policy. For example, the Sheriff's policy that the Board approved was a 7 percent increase which reflects what's in his budget. The thought of going to rolled-back, I thought we had kind of dealt with that and moved on, but -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Well, I hear what you're saying, Director Finn, but at the same time we didn't -- we didn't talk about using this $40 million that we have sitting in this fund. Use that -- MR. FINN: I understand. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: -- to subsidize some of these things that we need to do. MR. FINN: And -- COMMISSIONER KOWAL: It's there, and it's growing, and that's what I'm saying. If we could still -- September 21, 2023 Page 145 MR. FINN: It is. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Conservation Collier still gets their $44 million by the end of the day. MR. FINN: Yep. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: You know, it's just -- and everybody, the Sheriff gets his 7 percent increase. MR. FINN: Yep. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: But we -- you know, I hate to say it, but if we have monies that we've already collected from the citizens and we just let it sit there and we don't do our due diligence and say, all right, we're just going to keep putting money in this fund, but we're never going to use it to a point where it's going to benefit you as a taxpayer overall -- and I think we can use this money and refund it, like I said, to monies that's owed to us over this next fiscal year to get some money back in there and still fund some of these programs that we want, like our 18 million in our reserve. Even change it. If it's 15, 15's more than zero. MR. FINN: You're absolutely right. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Can we all agree on that? MR. FINN: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: And then take whatever's left and make sure the Sheriff and EMS gets their increase, whatever it is, the 4 and the 7 or whatever, and we still -- there's still -- there's money there for us to use, and then we roll back the rate, and we still function, because we functioned on less than that last year. We just didn't have that pot of money to pick from. And I'm just -- I'm not saying -- and Conservation Collier's still exists, and they still keep moving forward. I don't know. I'm just trying to simplify it. And we already know of the numbers for the rollback. It will take you guys 15 minutes to go back and get that and bring it to us. You've already September 21, 2023 Page 146 done it, so -- or we can sit here and piecemeal one by one this and that. But -- I don't know. I mean, that's my opinion, but I'm new, so... CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So just as a reminder, we're going to take a court reporter break at 10:00 for 10 minutes, so that's also a good time to go back to your offices, do the math, come back here with something that, if you want to pitch something, you actually can go through the numbers and we don't get intercepted by the accountants here saying that we're doing funny math. So -- but we've still got a couple minutes here. I've got Commissioner Hall and Commissioner McDaniel lit up if you want to, in the next three minutes, say something. But we're going to take a 10 p.m. break. Commissioner Hall. COMMISSIONER HALL: So I have a quick question. So Commissioner McDaniel made the comment, we functioned well on the rolled-back rate those amount of dollars last -- this year. Is this budget -- is our expenses to where we still can function for 2024 on that same amount of money? Amy just crossed her arms. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. She went very closed. And the question that was asked -- and I'm lit up here, if I can be -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So is this counting for your -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah, it will count for my -- it will count for my light. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Was Commissioner Hall done? COMMISSIONER HALL: Yes. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel. COMMISSIONER HALL: That was the question. September 21, 2023 Page 147 COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well -- and the statement that I made was we got along okay on 542-. At the rolled-back rate, we're going to -- it's going to increase what we collected last year by $11 million to 553-. If we stay rate neutral, we'll collect 615-, and they budgeted off of the 615 -- COMMISSIONER HALL: That's what I thought. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- because history has been we've moved pretty steady on the rate neutral. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let me say something before we break, because I don't have the -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: You have two minutes. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I don't have the history here, and I have a little more history than Commissioner Hall and Commissioner Kowal. When you stayed rate neutral all those years, why weren't 300 people in here screaming saying you were raising their taxes the way that we had, you know, this time? So I missed that. MR. FINN: And if I may, sir, one of the things that we're not talking about is the benefit of Save Our Homes. So 50 percent of your residential properties, their tax increase is limited to 3 percent. The balance of the properties are limited to 10 percent so far as it involves the Board's ability to set tax levy. The school board tax levy or, rather, the taxable value that applies to the school board millages floats entirely with the taxable value. But your millage is limited to 3 percent and/or 10 percent -- I'm sorry, the increase in the tax bill. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: But that didn't answer my question. When we stayed millage neutral -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: There is no good answer. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- for a thousand years, and it sounded like there was -- nobody felt that was a tax increase. That's why I said at a meeting previous when we were talking about millage September 21, 2023 Page 148 neutral, I didn't think the sky was falling. I thought, you know, yeah, would I like to go to the rolled-back rate? I'd just like to figure out how to do that. And there's been a couple of proposals here. MR. FINN: And if I may, I'll just add a little more color. You'll remember last year and at our last meeting the handful of taxpayers that came in or called in with serious concerns because their tax bill had increased dramatically. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. MR. FINN: They fit into that category of people whose properties were involved in some transaction, so their base is reset for taxable value purposes. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Right. COMMISSIONER HALL: And they weren't homesteaded. MR. FINN: That is correct. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: We've got people lit up, but we're going to take a break here, and we'll come back here at 10:10. We'll come back at 10:10. (A brief recess was had from 10:00 p.m. to 10:10 p.m.) MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. I want to have Commissioner Saunders open it up. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. I was going to raise Newton's fourth law, if there is such a thing, and that's the law of unintended consequences. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, that's right. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: And I had asked Trinity Scott what the rolled-back rate would do to transportation issues. I would also ask, what does that do to projects like ball fields in Immokalee, other lands in Immokalee. And I'd raised that just because I think there's some unintended consequences here that are pretty dramatic, and we just need to understand those, because I think September 21, 2023 Page 149 three commissioners have said the rolled-back millage rate is kind of the way to go, and I'm not so sure that it is, and I'd like to see what the consequences are. MS. PATTERSON: So, Commissioners, we transferred about $27 million into transportation from the combination General Fund 111. So we would be looking at those dollars as part of this equation as we go across all of the various places that the General Fund -- 27 million. I'm not suggesting that whole thing but, obviously, as we look line by line, these are all areas that would be -- if we're taking the constitutionals, starting at that place is -- the Sheriff and the constitutionals we'll set aside for a minute, which narrows our pie down to smaller, and it leaves us places like transportation, stormwater, code enforcement, parks, libraries, DAS. Those are your -- you know, your bigger ones. And we would keep looking from there. So if we're starting at a $62 million number, 35- of it from Conservation Collier -- you can do the math. We're going to take everything off this list, and we're just going to keep backing up from there until we achieve the number. Now, I have to say, again, that we're not starting at a place where I'm saying everything was great last year. Despite what we all want to say about that, we are struggling with all of the same costs that the people coming into this room are struggling with. Everything costs us more. We have labor challenges. We have to pay electric. We have to pay gas. We have to pay all the increased costs for all of our capital projects which, by the way, are not -- some of them are over budget, off schedule. Those are things that have happened over time for reasons beyond our control. And we have a continuing backlog of maintenance, which we're going to continue to bring to you. We spoke two or so meetings ago about the situation in aquatics. That isn't going to get better with September 21, 2023 Page 150 less money or no money. It's going to remain as it, and we'll continue to close the pools and triage the maintenance and keep things together the way that we can. The same with the ball fields in Immokalee. I am very sorry for the circumstances by which this came to Commissioner McDaniel's attention, but the fact of the matter is, is that project, because of stormwater, because of the age, went from one thing to another thing, and now we have to put all options back on the table to figure out how we would be able to do something like that. So make a list of the things that each of you want to do, should do, we have to do, and we're going to tell you that right now we have a limited amount of money. If we squeeze it, we just -- we'll keep squeezing. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I'm confident you'll do whatever the Board says in terms of the budget. How many opening positions do you have now? What's the number of employees -- positions that are not filled? MS. PATTERSON: On a day-to-day basis, we float around 230 to 250. When we started our summer work, we froze every position that was in one of these ad valorem affected areas. So libraries are frozen, parks are frozen, with the ability on case-by-case basis for those department heads to come to us and make their case. But pretty much across the board, anything that's funded by one of these affected funds is effectively frozen until we get to wherever we're going to be with this budget. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Now, you've worked with the county for, I hate to say how many years, but you've been with the county for a long time. MS. PATTERSON: Yep. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: You've been in the September 21, 2023 Page 151 manager's position, either the assistant manager or manager for how long now? MS. PATTERSON: Two years. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Two years. All right. So where is the bloat in our operations? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Do you want to answer that? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: And, you know, I want an honest answer, because if we have departments that are bloated or we have personnel that are ineffective, now is the time to tell us. MS. PATTERSON: Sir, for the last two years that I've been up there, I cannot tell you that I could point to an area now and say that's a bloated area. I think we have places where we could gain efficiency. You always have places where you could perform better. But places where I would say we could definitely go and cut money there, it just -- it just doesn't exist, and particularly in this cost environment. If you were asking us this question three or four years ago -- of course, we'd have been coming out of COVID, so a different world. We would have not been able to predict the environment we find ourselves in with cost -- it may be a different conversation. But now every bit of wiggle room that we had is gone. And also I have to say, remember that we're only dealing with the General Fund 111 and those smaller funds that are property-tax driven. You cannot go into your enterprise funds. You cannot go into your restricted-use funds. Those are fee for service, restricted use, untouchable. So we are dealing with a slice of this 2 -- and we keep throwing the number 2-point-whatever billion dollar budget, but when we ratchet it back, that's that pie chart we show you, all of a sudden you're talking about a very small sliver of that pie, and even within that is the things that we're not going to touch, public safety being at September 21, 2023 Page 152 the top of the list. If we have to pick between public safety and almost anything else, it's going to be public safety. There is no other choice. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: None of us are going to cut public safety. We did a little calculation on how much of that small pie is available if you take all that out. I've forgotten what that number was. It was a couple hundred million. I've got it written down, but if you know -- MR. JOHNSON: It was around 230- or 240-. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah, okay. MR. JOHNSON: If you'd like, I can calculate it for you. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: No, that's okay. Just order of magnitude. So if we were at the millage neutral, that number, the pie that we have to deal with is 240 million. If we go to rolled-back -- now, I understand we have some reserves and we have some money in Conservation Collier and we start moving money around. But ignoring that just a moment, if we just deal with that 240 million slice of the pie that we have jurisdiction over, if you will, and we go to the rolled-back millage rate, what is the reduction of that particular -- that number? MR. JOHNSON: Are we talking General Fund or across the board? MR. FINN: General Fund. The 240- refers to kind of the net -- net manager's agency amount in the General Fund. MR. JOHNSON: It would be another $50 million reduction. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So that would be $50 million out of 240-. So is that kind of what you're talking about when you start talking about -- MS. PATTERSON: Yes. September 21, 2023 Page 153 COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- unintended consequences? MS. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. So we would need to figure out where we're going to -- and, again, if that's the Board's direction, we've told you that that's what we will do, but it will not be without pain. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I just wanted to emphasize this. I know that we've got -- we've got three commissioners that want to go to the rolled-back millage rate, and that may very well be what we do tonight. I won't support doing that, but there are consequences to that that we'll start to learn about as we go through the budget year. What I had suggested is coming up with a way to reduce the millage rate so that we are reducing some of the burden on our taxpayers but -- not cutting Conservation Collier but directing staff to take that money out of our capital fund, reserve fund, that's an $18 million fund, and give staff the direction to tell us how we can replenish that fund, where we can cut individual programs/departments during the next couple of months during this budget cycle to replenish that fund. We get the budget cut that way, we get a millage cut that way, but we don't have these unintended consequences that I think we're going to be talking about for the rest of this budget year. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let me ask something, and then I'll go to Commissioner McDaniel. I want to pick on the constitutional officers' budgets a little bit. We've been picking on Conservation Collier the whole night. And I'm not picking on them. But their budgets are large. So let me just start with -- let's just start with Supervisor of Elections. So I understand it's an election year, so you pump up your budget. I'm going to assume in 2020, when we had a presidential election, did they ask for that same increase, or was it lesser of an September 21, 2023 Page 154 increase? I'm just trying to compare apples to apples. So not picking on anybody, but anybody that's here to support Conservation Collier will feel like they've been -- they've been, you know, taken out to the back of the woodshed since 5:05. Tell me what's -- what was the historical increases for Supervisor of Elections? Every presidential year they ask for about the same amount. I realize it's a bigger job during a presidential election, but it just seems like that's a -- and then I would ask the same thing for the Tax Collector and the Clerk of Courts. I mean, they asked for pretty large increases. Can you give me a short answer as to -- Supervisor of Elections is one that's easy. Hey, it's a presidential year, although I would sit here and say, so in 2020 they had asked for that exact same increase or pretty darn close to it? And then can you give me a short answer for the other two, just more out of -- to solve curiosity. MR. FINN: I'm going to try to deal with probably the most straightforward one. Tax Collector is a fee-based constitutional officer, and they get a percentage of what they're collecting, and that's how their budget is funded. So if their budget is increasing, it's largely in proportion to the fee they're going to -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So his 21 percent is because of that -- okay. So that makes sense. Don't love it, but -- okay. MR. FINN: I'm having trouble bringing up the precise memory for the Supervisor of Elections, but as I said earlier, my sense of it is, as a proportion, that's probably about what it was in any year they're going to have two elections. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Okay. MR. FINN: The Property Appraiser is largely a fee-based officer as well -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. MR. FINN: -- so that there's a fair amount of proportioning September 21, 2023 Page 155 with his budget that has to do with the amount of taxes being levied, so I have a sense -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And Clerk of Courts it was -- if I remember correctly, when I did a drill-down it was improving some IT things, bringing a lot more sort of technology, and there were some of those other things in there. Wasn't that correct? MR. FINN: There certainly is a little bit of that. There's a capital and that -- their accounting system has been going through an update over the last couple of years. And there is some capital money for that going forward. The operating budget is pretty much to stay in line with our budget relative to pay increases. And the Clerk has addressed you. And I'll attempt to reference the other portion, which has to do with the court -- the courts and specifically the state-funded portion of courts. And she's having a debate with the state in terms of how much of her own fee she's allowed to maintain. She asked for some $800,000, Chris, as an expanded request -- MR. JOHNSON: Correct. MR. FINN: -- so that she could properly fund the state side of the court, and the Board, thus far, has approved that increase. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. And I wanted to get some of that on the record, too, because I want to -- I don't want this to end and we're accused of we didn't talk about all these other budgets; we just focused on one and we left everybody else out there dry or ignored, which isn't the case. So, you know, I appreciate that synopsis, which is what we sort of talked about at the last meeting, but I wanted to just get it on the record here. MR. FINN: And what I kind of heard is a little bit unusual. The concept of going to rollback is largely unprecedented -- not [sic] unprecedented in my experience here, particularly at -- and I have to September 21, 2023 Page 156 say this because, technically, there's some of this that we're not going to be able to do. We're not going to be able to go into every single fund and adjust that and get through this. So my hope is that the smaller funds, the MSTUs, if we do go down this road, we can perhaps leave those -- leave those as they are. Those tend to be operated on a -- with their own -- their own advisory committees that report to the Board, and the policy was to allow them to, essentially, set their millages, and they've all, essentially, complied with that. That's not to say that we can't look at this after the millages are set and bring some adjustments to their budget back. But, technically, we're not going to be able to get through those 30 funds and make those adjustments tonight. So if we're focusing on the General Fund and the countywide funds in General Fund, Conservation Collier, and Fund 111, we can probably get through some of them. And, Commissioner Kowal, what I think I heard you say is if we were to reduce Conservation Collier to zero, we were to make some adjustments to the General Fund to bring that as close as possible to rollback, we would then also be authorized to redistribute the existing Conservation Collier reserves to pump up or re-support some of those budgets. Even with that, we, essentially, would be in a position much like we were in 2009/2010. This is equivalent to a dramatic reduction in taxable value for us. We will end up coming back, making the adjustments that are necessary, and the Board is going to find most of those adjustments are going to be in the capital side. It will both be in new projects and it will also be the enhanced maintenance that we've been able to put in place over the last two or three years. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Before I go to Commissioner -- so I've got Commission McDaniel, then Commissioner Hall. If I'm September 21, 2023 Page 157 hearing my colleagues right, who have proposed putting Conservation Collier to zero, but what I heard immediately after that was they're proposing that because they want, then, Conservation Collier to dip into the reserves and some of the money they have in their bank account and continue to function but sort of spend some of that money down. Commissioner Hall, did I have that right? COMMISSIONER HALL: I think that's Commissioner Kowal's -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Commissioner Kowal, was that your -- COMMISSIONER KOWAL: No, I never said that. I feel Conservation Collier -- if we go to rollback, Conservation Collier's going to be set at .22. They're going to collect .22 for this year, which is $31 million. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So you're not proposing to put Conservation Collier to zero? COMMISSIONER KOWAL: No. I'm proposing the $48 million they have over there that's gaining interest, that we don't touch. Use that money to -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: To make up the difference. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: -- there's a $60 million difference, right, in the rollback. Forty-eight million of that is -- we can possibly use that to make up the difference on these other programs, like the Sheriff's budget, his 20 million, our 18- or 15- in our reserve. You know, use that money, then we can replenish that part of it later. That's what I'm trying to say. We have a bank account sitting over there that we're not touching. It's at -- it's going to be at $48 million. MR. FINN: Okay. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: That's what I'm trying to say. September 21, 2023 Page 158 MR. FINN: No, I appreciate that clarification. So order of magnitude, just -- COMMISSIONER KOWAL: That's what I'm saying, we're all going to take a cut. We're all going to take a cut. Conservation Collier's going to function. They're going to end up, like I said, with $44 million, because they have 28- in the bank already. They send their 8 million this next year that we have things online to buy. They're going to add another 24 million once they move their 7 million over to their fund that they use that sits there that will be at $48 million, a bank account that collects interest that we don't touch. MR. FINN: So in concept, we would be utilizing that reserve to -- (Simultaneous crosstalk.) COMMISSIONER KOWAL: We'd be using that 48 million to change impact of doing the rollback on the programs that we think are the most important. That's what I was trying to get across. I know I wasn't clear about it -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Very clear. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: And just real quick, back to the clerks, I know we talked about the Clerk of Courts. And I discussed some projects. I think they want to build two new courtrooms and -- what budget does that come out of? That was, like, a 2.3 million or $3 million project on the fifth floor. MR. FINN: Yes, sir. The Clerk is here. The courtrooms are actually a court project. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. MR. FINN: The court has a -- has its own fund that they fund up with fees from court fees, and that is specifically provided to provide for enhancements and replacements at the courthouse. That fund requires the approval of the administrative judge for the use of that, but it does fall under the Board. September 21, 2023 Page 159 COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So that is part of our budget -- MR. FINN: Yes. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: -- moving forward. MR. FINN: Yes. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: There is close to $3 million for two new courtrooms on the fifth floor and another jury room. And, you know, I have some little internal knowledge, and I verified yesterday that, you know, since COVID, our Sheriff's Department doesn't even do in-person traffic court anymore. We used to use 1A and 1B on a regular basis with 100 people in there on a -- you know, every -- so many days a week, and we're doing it on Zoom now. MR. FINN: I understand. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: The judge sits in his office, you know, the sheriffs sit in their cars, or they're at home if they're off, and they do court that way. And they're still doing it. I verified it yesterday. So I'm just trying to justify, there's $3 million right there that we may be able to -- MR. FINN: There is, sir. I think the jury room is not part of the project at the moment. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. MR. FINN: But I will say that -- like so much of kind of the overcomplicated government accounting, it's done because the money can't be used across all uses. And we certainly could take a look at that. And I've kind of taken some steps to set up a meeting with Mr. Rice, the administrator over there, so we can talk about it with you. But that money can't necessarily be used to offset any other uses. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. Well, that's just -- I'm just trying to -- like I said, I'm new to this. MR. FINN: I understand. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: But I'm just trying to -- like, I September 21, 2023 Page 160 think there's things, if we take a microscope to it, there's money there. And that took me 10 minutes to -- with you on the side, you know, of my desk there just flipping through some pages and saying, all right, is this really necessary at the stage we're at right now? So -- MR. FINN: And to be candid with you, the thing that really kind of impacts our ability to be completely flexible is if the money is earmarked for specific purposes, lawfully it can't be used now. We've talked a lot about Conservation Collier, and the attorney is generally -- I'll speak generally. I'm not really speaking for him. But he's indicated that that money can be used for other countywide or General Fund purposes. There is a little bit of a downside to doing that. Those monies, because they're in reserves and they've been collected over time, they're, essentially, one-time monies. And to keep things going, if we have one-time monies, we like to use it for one-time purposes, like capital. We don't necessarily want to offset ongoing expenses, because when the money's gone, the expense oftentimes is still there, and that may necessitate having to generate the money. So we wouldn't necessarily use money to offset parks operations that we know are going to continue. And if we did, eventually that money's going to be gone, and we're going to have to find a permanent source or reduce the level of service in parks or libraries or an ongoing project. Just by way of discussion. That doesn't change the thought you had. I just wanted to bring that up. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Let me -- Commissioner McDaniel, you have the floor. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. There's a $62 million spread between the millage neutral and the rolled-back rate. If we went to the rolled-back rate, Conservation Collier would get 30 -- COMMISSIONER HALL: One million. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- 31 million. 7 million, September 21, 2023 Page 161 three -- $8 million of that goes into reserves for future maintenance, $23 million of that goes into the purchasing fund. Conservation Collier, in total, will be up to almost $90 million. So my thoughts are, why don't we do the rolled-back rate, that effectuates a savings, and then make a motion to move that $62 million spread between the rate neutral and the rolled-back rate back into the funding sources out of Conservation Collier. That still leaves $20 million in acquisitions, and it still leaves $10 million in reserves for ongoing maintenance, which is -- at the current burn rate, is about a million dollars a year, and we effectuate the $62 million savings right there. COMMISSIONER HALL: I like it. Say it one more time. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Rolled-back rate still gives Conservation Collier $31 million, 8- of that is dedicated into the escrow fund for future maintenance, 23- of that is put into acquisitions. We reduce the acquisitions down to 20 million, which is about $30 million, and we reduce the reserves for maintenance down to 10-, which is 37 million, and that actually gives 5 million extra -- with that math, it actually gives -- that leaves 10 million in reserves for ongoing maintenance and $20 million for future purchases, and we dedicate -- and we dedicate those funds over to cover the spread from staying at rate neutral. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And what is that number that gets moved over? I'm just trying to keep up with the -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Thirty-seven million -- plus/minus 37 million comes out of reserves for maintenance, and 30 million comes out of reserves for future purchases. And that gets you 67 million instead of -- you can do 25 million -- split the numbers. The delta is 62 million between rate neutral and rolled-back rate. MR. FINN: If I may, sir, one of the things I mentioned a September 21, 2023 Page 162 moment ago is we have about -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Speak up. MR. FINN: We have 23 MSTU funds that -- that are included in that $62 million rollback number you're talking about. If there's any way the Board could see their way clear to leaving those funds alone, it might allow us to actually complete this task before the sun comes up tomorrow. Those -- that delta is relatively small. It's about a million dollars of that 62- spread across a number of funds. For instance, one of those funds would be the Immokalee Beautification MSTU -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. MR. FINN: -- or the Bayshore MSTU or the Vanderbilt Beach MSTU. Those are all areas that I don't hear a lot of human cry to reduce those, and they're kind of special-purpose funds. So that would be something I would just want to get on the record and see if the Board would provide a little consideration in that regard. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: If we went to the rolled-back rate, those funds all get adjusted. Everybody gets adjusted. You're saying you're wanting us to leave them at -- them at millage neutral? "Recording in progress." COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We need Troy. MR. FINN: Yes, sir. That's what I was hoping, that the Board might streamline the effort with that. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: With the proposition that I have, that I've suggested, you've got sufficient funds if we draw -- if we do rate neutral or do rollback on everybody, and then move -- MR. FINN: And, again, if I may, sir, the major funds are the General Fund, Conservation Collier, and Fund 111. Those amount to 61 and change of the 62- you're talking about. We've looked at these funds. You've looked at their budgets. I understand what the Board's trying to achieve. And if I may, because the funds that I'm September 21, 2023 Page 163 referring to are the large ones, in the broad sense of rollback in the aggregate is a weighted average, we will get to a huge percentage of the overall rollback by doing it -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'm down with that. MR. FINN: -- by leaving those alone. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: So leave those -- leave those special -- leave those individual funds alone and only do the rollback on the -- on the General Fund -- MR. FINN: General Fund. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- and Fund 111. MR. FINN: Fund 111, and you're going to have to go back over the Conservation Collier specifics with me so I can -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Conservation Collier, you draw down Conservation Collier by the 62 million, $61 million spread, divide it between leaving 10- -- no less than 10- in reserves for ongoing maintenance and 20- for future acquisitions. MR. FINN: Very good. We will leave 10- in the reserve for maintenance, we will leave 20- for acquisitions in that fund, we will then spread those reserves out to make up what we can in Fund 001, and we will reduce 001 by a total of whatever the rollback is. MR. JOHNSON: Fifty million. MR. FINN: Fifty million. And whatever we have to adjust Conservation Collier to achieve that new money, is that -- I'm sorry. That was rollback. Conservation Collier would be set at rollback. MS. PATTERSON: Conservation Collier goes to rollback, and then we offset 111 and the General Fund with the reserves. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Correct. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: In your proposal, what happens to that unfunded list; library, parks, and all that? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It all gets taken care of, because they're taken care of -- September 21, 2023 Page 164 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yep. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- in the millage neutral. MR. FINN: We will attempt to go prove that out if, in fact, the Board gives us that direction. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'll make that motion. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Let me just make a pause here, because I've got everybody lit up, but some people have already been speaking out of turn. Commissioner Kowal -- let me go -- Commissioner Saunders, do you have something or are you -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: The Clerk. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: The Clerk -- Crystal just came in. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. That's all right. Commissioner Saunders, sir, do you want the floor? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah. I just wanted to ask Mr. Finn. MR. FINN: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I just wanted to ask you in terms of the small -- you know, the MSTUs and those funds that you were just talking about where you keep those steady, you don't go to the rolled-back rate on those, do any of those require a supermajority vote, or do any of them require -- or are they all -- to do that -- because I'm going to be voting against the motion, so -- and I don't know if anybody else will. But we may want to separate it out to have Commissioner McDaniel maybe make two motions. One is the rolled back on the funds that he's talking about, and then second motion to keep the other ones steady. MR. FINN: Yes, sir. Thank you for suggesting that. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I just want to avoid any September 21, 2023 Page 165 voting requirement that you may not have. MR. FINN: Yes, and I think you're exactly right, we'd separate those MSTUs. We would separate 111 and the balance of the 111, Conservation Collier and the others, into a motion or split it up however we can to achieve the voting requirements. But I will say that within the MSTUs, Commissioner Saunders is correct, there's a few of those that require actually a supermajority and a, I think, unanimous. There's a few that require a unanimous. So we would kind of just go through those until we get to the approval we need. If we don't get a unanimous on that whole group, we'll split out the unanimous ones and see if we can get to those. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'll just say, one of the reasons why I like what Commissioner McDaniel said is -- is not just because it's, like, oh, we went to the rolled-back rate, but much like Commissioner Hall said, it's -- for me, it's less about the millage and the rolled-back, but it's just looking at the big numbers. And so, if I'm understanding you correctly, Commissioner McDaniel, what I like about what I hear is, yeah, rollback and millage and all that, but in the end the departments, the funds, the programs that are really -- I think are really important to the citizens and to me, like Conservation Collier, like you said, the unfunded list, they all get funded but just in a different way. And if I was in charge of Conservation Collier, I really wouldn't care where the money came from as long as I had 30 million to spend or whatever -- whatever they tell us the math comes out to. And I feel like they're going to have more than enough, maybe a little less in reserve, a little less in maintenance, but that money's been sitting there for a while. I'd be happy that I would have a big number, and I'd worry less about, oh, we lost this, we lost that. Is that -- am I -- am I paraphrasing, basically -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Basically. September 21, 2023 Page 166 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- what your goal is? Okay. So, I mean, I -- you know, if people are looking for where we stand -- and, I mean -- and I'll ask Commissioner Saunders. He said, "I probably wouldn't vote for it." Tell me what you don't like about Commissioner McDaniel's proposal. You think it leaves us thin in areas where we need additional funds? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Quite frankly, I don't think there's anything I like about his proposal, because I don't know what the consequences are going to be. Now, we're -- I think what he has suggested doing is reducing -- after all -- after the approval, reducing what's available to Conservation Collier to $20 million for acquisition and $10 million for reserves. I believe that's what you said you want to do. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: (Nods head.) COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: We all know that that's not enough money in reserves for the future maintenance of the properties that they already own. And we had this conversation multiple times on how much money is needed for maintenance. And we were -- at one point, I think we had $30 million in the Maintenance Fund, 35 million at one point, and you talked about how robust that fund was -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Right. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- and that it was probably a little bit more than perhaps was needed at that time. But now you're talking 10 million, and that's just not a responsible way to deal, for the future, maintenance of the properties for Conservation Collier. So I'm not trying to be offensive -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: No, no. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- but Commissioner, Mr. Chairman, there's nothing that I find appealing in that proposal. Commissioner Kowal's proposal might be better, but I just think September 21, 2023 Page 167 we're going to get into a point where down the road we're going to wonder how we got into a problem because of going back to the rolled-back millage rate. So that's just -- you go all the way back. I just -- I just think it's going to be a problem that we don't know what that problem is going to be. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'd like Commissioner McDaniel to respond, and then Commissioner Kowal is next. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well, the response really is I have -- we haven't even talked about borrowing at all in any of these -- in any of these discussions tonight, and we do have some borrowing capacity for some of these necessary infrastructure items that our community, in fact, direly needs. If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Finn, if I recall, we have that, we have borrowing capacity there. The suggestion that I'm making to get us through tonight is to do the rolled-back rate on the General Fund, Fund 111, move the money out of Conservation Collier leaving no less than 10- and 20-, 10- in reserve for maintenance. Their burn rate, last I looked, was 1 million -- about a million, million 2 a year. MS. PATTERSON: A million 4. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Plus/minus. MR. FINN: Plus the operating on the acquisition side. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: With the rollback, they would still get 31 million. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: They would get 31 million, and then we would draw down the -- we would draw down the acquisitions to no less than 20-, and at the proposed 8 million or so that's on the list of what to have, what we need to have right now, we would have a $12 million buffer in there for that, and that would allow us to function as if we stayed at rate neutral this year knowing that we're going to go into other budget cuts next year with -- and hopefully increases in income, because we've got studies going on for September 21, 2023 Page 168 rate studies and so on. MR. FINN: Right. Now, the effect of changing your millage rate now to rollback is going to mean, to fund the same thing next year or even less next year, you're going to need a rate increase, in all probability. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And that's what Commissioner Hall had discussed. The goal will be then to have -- if, in fact, we need to in order to meet the 553 million that we would at the rolled-back rate -- and it would be a little bit higher than that, but in order to meet that, if we needed to raise that rate in order to meet that dollar amount, then we, in fact, could. MR. FINN: Yes, sir. Hope springs eternal. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It does. MR. FINN: And if I may, in a serious vein, these are one-time monies, and we will be funding ongoing operations. For instance, the list that we've been looking at that involve those unfunded requests, the expanded requests, now, I know we're probably going to find a way to squeeze them in in this money. It sounded like it was going to make us whole for one year, but all of those -- those are being funded with one-time money, which means to continue those next year will necessitate an increase. Generally speaking -- and this chart is a little difficult to kind of understand that Chris has up here. But when you start levying rollback, we're going to find that that does not even keep up with inflation, and it's, essentially, a spiral downward. So we're setting the course for lesser money in the future without establishing the level of service. So we're going to be doing kind of a cart-before-the-horse kind of thing. Ideally, we would have had an opportunity to establish what the level of service is, tell you what it costs, and make sure that that meets with your approval through the process. So doing it now at September 21, 2023 Page 169 this stage is going to have some ramifications next year. And I acknowledge Commissioner McDaniel is crystal clear. His intent is to dig in deep into the budget. I believe the balance of the Board feel the same way. County Manager is committed, as we committed this year, strategic plan, AUIR, and an evaluation of the process we should use in the budget, whether it's based on a priority -- priority basis of what's mandated versus what is a quality-of-life type thing or, as I think we all say, our primary -- primary thing is public safety; secondarily, it's infrastructure; and, lastly, it's the balance of our infrastructure and maintaining that appropriately, leaving us with the quality-of-life issues, you know, as a priority, but a lower one to the first two I mentioned. So that, in fact, is what the budget's going to look like going forward, and we will find ourselves making difficult decisions. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I like the math of Commissioner McDaniel's proposal for Conservation Collier, because it doesn't take them to zero. It doesn't pause them. It just moves their money around a little bit in a more creative way. They may not like it but, you know, we're up against some difficult things. And, you know, the alternative could be you get nothing, and so I like it. My only concern, where I'd feel a little bit better supporting it is I am concerned about how that rollback then affects some other funds and some other -- you know, other programs, that we might be taking them a little too far back, and so that's where I'd like to hear your response to that. But before -- maybe just think about that for a minute. I want to go to Commissioner Kowal, who's lit up. Did you have something, sir? I want to make sure -- like, everybody's lit, but we've all been talking. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: It was -- the other slide that was September 21, 2023 Page 170 showing the supermajority and -- so you have -- correct me if I'm wrong, this is Conservation Collier or -- it requires a supermajority; is that correct? Because I thought I was understanding there was -- MR. FINN: It depends where we are. And right now Conservation Collier is partitioned off from the General Fund, and that is the way the Department of Revenue has been looking at it. The County Attorney has reviewed that and believes that that partitioning is just. It doesn't have any real effective law, and perhaps Commissioner Saunders or the County Attorney could kind of fill us in on that one. MS. PATTERSON: These are the votes to stay at millage neutral. So that was the intent of this chart is to show the votes needed for millage neutral. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: The line item for Conservation Collier is incorrect. It does not require a supermajority vote. That only requires a simple majority vote. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. That was the question I had. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah. This was put on there -- quite frankly, it was put in there in error. I think staff was being cautious. But we did have a meeting with Chris and with the County Attorney, and Conservation Collier is not a district. It's just a line item in our budget. So that should -- that should be moved over to the majority-vote column. MR. FINN: Certainly, if we achieve a rollback, we're okay with the majority vote, both lawfully as well as with DOR in case they were to make an issue because we have it on a separate piece of paper. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Understood. But if we don't go to the rolled-back millage rate, it still only requires a simple majority. September 21, 2023 Page 171 MR. FINN: The County Attorney has, in fact, said that. Department of Revenue may give us a little black eye over that, but so be it. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Have you had that conversation since our meeting with the Department of Revenue? Because we had a meeting a week ago or -- MR. FINN: Have you talked to them, Chris? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So -- and -- MR. JOHNSON: They told us to go off the form currently. But, again, the -- MR. FINN: If we're at rollback, we're good. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Commissioner Kowal, did you still have something, or I'll go to Commissioner McDaniel. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: No. I just -- I just want to kind of wrap my head around Commissioner McDaniel's -- you know, what he's saying and what I think I'm understanding is that, you know, this money, when we move it around, that -- you know, our -- the difference between where we're at at neutral is $62 million. What his math -- we're going to have $67 million -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Correct. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: -- and we're still at rollback and not touching the special districts that -- you know. And so our General and all that will go back to the actual rollback, and we're actually -- we can fund everything. I mean, to me it sounds like we have -- the money will be there to fund everything that you want to do -- MS. PATTERSON: For this year. So essentially what -- COMMISSIONER KOWAL: -- for this year. MS. PATTERSON: -- we have to do between this year and next year, really, when we get to policy is understand that this was a September 21, 2023 Page 172 one-time plug of money, and we're basically adding things this year to then evaluate whether we can afford them without raising the millage rate next year. So we're adding to potentially subtract, which is the only danger of the one-time money, as Ed -- as Mr. Finn explained. Now, the most important part of this is that if that -- if this is how we want to do it with the one-time money, we have to follow it up by looking through every bit of discretionary area that we have, turn over every stone to say if these are important things for us to have without the one-time plug of money, we have to find that within the pot of money we have, and you'll be facing another rollback number your next year. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Or -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And exactly what you said is one of the reasons why I like it, because this is forcing us to really take a look at things and not just say, well, everything got funded. Some of it might be fat. Some of it might not. We are -- we are, on purpose, tightening things here and putting ourselves in a position that we have to do a whole bunch of stuff over the next 12 months to make sure we haven't screwed ourselves in the next year. We need to maybe get -- maybe get a -- you know, somebody to come in and get an assessment. We need to do a line-item. We need to see if we can get to a zero-based budget. But we have just given ourselves a whole bunch of homework assignments over the next 12 months, and I don't think that's a bad thing, because I don't think that's been here as aggressively. And maybe it's a little scary or what have you, but, you know, what's the saying I always say? I hate this one least, right? But Commissioner McDaniel has the floor -- he's lit up -- and then Commissioner Hall. Obviously, anybody else can speak, but please light up. September 21, 2023 Page 173 Commissioner McDaniel, did you have something you want -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I just -- yeah. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Go ahead. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Just one point, and it's if -- the goal is to not raise taxes next year. We may have to raise the rate next year, but we're going to have new properties come in. That's something that hasn't been -- we won't know what those, in fact, are until we actually get the evaluations back from the tax assessor's office. So we won't know that, and -- but the -- so this is, necessarily, a one-time shot. We may have to raise the rate next year -- COMMISSIONER HALL: But it won't be an increase. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- from the rollback that we're going to this year to effectuate the same dollar amount, but as Commissioner LoCastro said, it's forcing us to dive into those budgets and squeeze if it's, in fact, possible. MS. PATTERSON: Understood. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. I just -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall, then Commissioner Saunders. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Also -- COMMISSIONER HALL: So the question I have for Mr. Finn was you said to leave some of the special districts, leave them at the millage neutral. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yes. COMMISSIONER HALL: So the difference between the rollback and the millage neutral is $8 million, basically. MR. FINN: And I ask Chris to put that up on the chart. The funds that we have in play are the ones at the top, which are the countywide funds, and the other fund that we have in play is the top one in the lower section which is the Unincorporated Area General September 21, 2023 Page 174 Fund. COMMISSIONER HALL: Right. MR. FINN: And Chris is showing the millages. If he showed you the dollar amounts, you would see that the Unincorporated Area General Fund is the other -- makes up the bulk of that 6 or $7 million there, Chris. MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. MR. FINN: You can see that's $70 million of the taxes below the line. So between those four funds, we've really covered the bulk of it. Do you have the one with the delta? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Can I ask a question? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Go ahead. MR. FINN: And if I may, the delta -- the delta that you're talking about in 111 is the best part of $7 million between rollback and where we are right now. So that does, in fact, cover the bulk of the numbers that we're trying to achieve here. COMMISSIONER HALL: It still gets us to the same dollar amount. MR. FINN: Plus or minus a million. COMMISSIONER HALL: It makes your job easier here in just a few minutes. MR. FINN: It makes it so we're not going to both try to open a window and jump out. COMMISSIONER HALL: I just wanted to clarify that. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Our goal is to make your job easy. MR. FINN: I understand that. I appreciate that question, sir. I'm glad that you gave me an opportunity to clarify a little bit. So I see those four funds as the funds in play. And if I may, Mr. Chairman, I see the Clerk standing there. I don't know whether -- September 21, 2023 Page 175 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Well, one of the things I was going to say to her is think twice about coming to the podium. Nobody talked about cutting any of your stuff. You know, sometimes you come up here, and then all of a sudden it's like Shark Tank. You know, you come up here, and all of a sudden maybe we come up with a better idea. So it sounds like you're safe right now, but if you want to approach the podium, ma'am, the floor is yours. MS. KINZEL: Thank you, Commissioner. And if you settled that, great, because I heard we're all up for grabs. Having lived through below rollback in the '90s, cautionary tales, a couple of things that I heard that as comptroller does concern me: Borrowing at the height of the market and height of interest rates, we're not in favorable conditions to do borrowing at this time. We're at a higher rate. We are about 800 million in debt right now. So some of those pay-downs and opportunities, when you roll back or when you forego the growth income, remember we always -- back earlier growth paid for growth. You're actually going back below where growth will pay for growth. You have to expand your facilities. We recently had a big pipe break in the warehouse. Your infrastructure is weak. Things about the jury -- the courtrooms aren't mine. They are court administration. But if they see them as necessary for future growth, we are growing in Collier County exponentially, and the services that are required for each of those are exponential. Also, what the County Manager has pointed out with -- you're only going to increase to cut. We just caught up with our salaries with our employees. Caught up. We are now this -- this budget includes 5 percent more for insurance. FRS has gone up. We have gone back in time. In the early 2000s, eight years our employees didn't get raises. September 21, 2023 Page 176 So rollback and that sounds very good from an initial one-year perspective, but when you look forward three to five years, what's happening in Collier, what do we have to do to balance that? You do have a tough decision, but because I've lived through all of this -- and you did mention my budget, which was why I came over here. I was in my room watching and working, so -- but just to offer those cautions, because I have seen it, and it really does sound good. Also, a little bit of an exception, because I do give you a line-item budget, and I gruel over my budgets, and I think the county does the same. These departments, we look. You get the change orders and things. Everything is going up on the commission board agendas. You have to make up that somewhere. And if you do not have the cash in a reserve or in a fallback, some of the things that you want to borrow from now, you're going to be looking at a harsher moment down the road. So we've all taken hits before. I've been here 35 years. We've taken hits; no raises, no anything. But, prospectively, we still want to keep it paradise, getting your ball fields, getting the operations, people that we need here. You're not going to do it if we can't give raises and we can't take care of the staff, so -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: But do you think that the -- MS. KINZEL: -- some of those -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- commissioners prior to us all those years where you say, oh, they did this, they did that, were as committed to what we're saying up here now of doing a deeper dive, going by -- going through each budget, every department, starting with -- I'm sorry? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Zero base. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Zero base? You know, a lot of the things we're proposing here that could find more money, I'm not sure September 21, 2023 Page 177 that that has happened in the past. And one of the things I like about what I'm hearing up here -- and I know Commissioner Saunders doesn't like it, but it's forcing us to really run the county budget the way we would run our own households or our business. And I'm not sure that's happened. You know, these meetings were a lot shorter. Millage neutral, everybody went home, everything's great. And I just -- I think that we're committed to saying we know that there's a delta, but we've got some homework to do to make up that -- we're, on purpose, tightening things and leaving us with a little bit of a delta but still funding Conservation Collier, still funding the unfunded list, and we're putting that delta on us to find that money elsewhere. And also, too, I'd like to pull up the Clerk of Courts budget, because now that she reminded us, maybe we've got some fat there, right? No, I'm just kidding. I appreciate you coming down here. MS. KINZEL: And I do appreciate it. I agree, looking at it from this perspective, absolutely, I appreciate the commissioners digging into it. You know I appreciate the agenda reviews and all of that. But I will say, I also know the grueling staff talks and conversations about, well, we can't really do this. Well, we can do this. Okay. We'll patch this. Well, it's going to be two years before we can do this, three years. Lack of total planning for three to five years, what are we really doing? Your infrastructure, how old is this building? Leaking windows. All of these things that are happening across the campus, we need to account for those and dig into that. If you start with a cutback basis, you're going to have to increase and increase when the reality hits. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let me go to the commissioners. So actually -- MS. KINZEL: That's all I wanted, to caution you. Thanks. September 21, 2023 Page 178 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders, and then Commissioner McDaniel. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I promise I won't say anything else after this last comment. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: You promise? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I promise. Commissioner LoCastro. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I don't mind digging into these numbers. I've never minded doing that. That's not the point. I hate that expression "the cart before the horse," but I think we're putting the cart before the horse, and the reason I say that is we do need to take this deep dive. We do need to look at every line item in our budget. We do need to bring on the expert to tell us how to do zero-based budgeting, but the problem is we're doing the rolled-back millage rate before we know what the implications of it are, and that's what bothers me. We're going to reduce the millage tonight to the rolled-back millage rate; there's no question about that. But I don't think anybody on this board has any clear understanding of what the potential implications are, and that's what bothers me. Now, I understand -- Commissioner Hall, you're shaking your head. I understand -- COMMISSIONER HALL: Yes. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- that you feel that there's a lot of fat here and -- COMMISSIONER HALL: That's not what I'm saying. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: But -- and then one other comment as I'm wrapping up here. You talk about Conservation Collier, they should be happy with the fact that they're getting more money, but they're getting $31 million additional money because that's where the rolled-back rate would take them, but then we're September 21, 2023 Page 179 taking all that money out and leaving them with, like I said, the 20 million and the 10 million. That's not an increase in funding for Conservation Collier; it's gutting the program. So I just want to point out that I think that we have -- we're talking about a process that I think would be a very good process. The problem is we waited too long in this budget cycle to do it. We should have had this conversation back in March, April. That's when we should have started digging into this, when we agreed to the budget recommendation from the staff of 5.75 percent across the board. That's when we should have said, wait a minute, why do we need that extra money? We didn't do that. We sent the message we're going to deal with the 5.75 percent. That was the guidance. And so I just think that we have kind of put this in reverse here. We should have this conversation and this detail before we make a massive reduction, because I don't think we understand what the implications are going to be. That's it. I know there's going to be a motion and second. I'll vote against the motion because I think it's bad public policy. I don't have a problem with cutting taxes, but I do have a problem with taking a deep reduction when we haven't done the homework to know what the implications are. It's as simple as that. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Well, one thing I'll say is let's not race to the finish line if there's still some discussion to be had. I mean, you know, this is supposed to be hard. So I don't want anybody to say that's the last -- I hope that's not the last time that we heard from you. I've got all the commissioners, you know, lit up here. So, Commissioner McDaniel, do you have something to add? And then, Commissioner Hall, you're still lit up. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'm good. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Commissioner Hall. September 21, 2023 Page 180 COMMISSIONER HALL: I just want to reiterate, we're not cutting. We're coming up with the same dollar amount. We're still coming up with $615 million to operate, so we're not reducing anything. We're just not increasing. We're getting some money this year, special cause, to let us take a look, and we're not saying -- this is not our policy. This is not what we're going to do next year. No way. I want to see what we have to work with. Like Commissioner LoCastro says, it's going to force us to do that, and I'm ready for that challenge. So we're not -- we're going to operate. Everybody's going to live happily ever after. Conservation Collier's going to keep kicking and rolling just like they are, and I hope they find -- I hope they find all of the monies' worth of properties. I would love to purchase it. And next year I'm hoping that we go right back for the .25 for them, and they get 35- or 40 million next year. But it's going to be after we take a look -- when expenses come down -- and I'm just believing God for it. You know, you can argue with me and say, there's just no way. Well, we're going to let somebody else determine that. And we can take their recommendations, or we can reject them. So we're still coming up with the same amount of money whether -- you know, however we get there. I like Commissioner McDaniel's proposal. And I'm okay with leaving the little taxing districts at millage neutral. It's all the same money. It's just less accounts to deal with. It's the -- we're not losing anything, so... MR. JOHNSON: If I may, with those little taxing districts, I know there's one that we were actually going to look at, and I put the slide up right now, Rock Road, so -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: What's that? MR. JOHNSON: So with that fund, we were planning on, based on your guidance last time, to reduce the levy from September 21, 2023 Page 181 the -- basically the rolled-back rate that we had, which was .8109, and put it down to the .2847, essentially reducing it from 69,000 in tax to 24-. Are we still -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yes. MR. JOHNSON: Okay. Just wanted to double-check and make sure we're all on the same page with that. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And for your brain, as we're going through those smaller MSTUs and smaller taxing districts, I want to see a comparison of the previous years' expenses in relationship to the estimated revenues that are coming in and correlate the taxation to be at least equivalent, also accounting for increases in expenses and that sort of stuff. And you did that on that one. That's how we got to that number. MR. FINN: Thank you, sir. You're on fire. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Because I know we talk about a proposal here, just so I understand the procedure or just so we're all clear on it, so if somebody makes a motion, and we vote on it, you-all still have to go back and run the numbers and do a whole bunch of things like that. So what if you come back and we see the numbers and somebody did the math wrong up here? So if we made a motion and we all approved it, is final? Because you're going to come back -- MR. FINN: No. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- then and show us what it looks like? MR. KLATZKOW: You can reconsider. MR. FINN: We are, effectively, going to come back with an amendment -- MR. KLATZKOW: You can reconsider if you want. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: We can recon- -- okay. That's what I wanted to say, so -- September 21, 2023 Page 182 MR. FINN: But step-wise, sir, we're coming back with amendments to the tentative budget. Your first step is to approve those changes to the -- MR. JOHNSON: Correct. MR. FINN: -- tentative budget. So those are the numbers we're talking about. And then we get into kind of the normal procedures, which is approving the associated millages and then ultimately approving the budget -- the budget document. So we have a couple of resolutions that we have to change the attachments to, bring those back, as well as do the numbers. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And it would also show us the exact number in each of those different categories, right? You're going to have to redo those spreadsheets to show us, with what was proposed here, what each line item get -- MR. FINN: Correct. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- works out to be, correct? MR. JOHNSON: It will be updated with the -- effectively, the new millage rates and the new taxes. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Well, nobody else is lit up here, so what I think I would like to hear is, in great detail, as much as possible, Commissioner McDaniel to outline his proposal and -- the way you have with the numbers, show what Conservation Collier would get and how the rollback would work, and let's make sure we're all doing proper math here. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And I have a question for Commissioner Saunders. If I was -- I don't want to paraphrase what I understood you to say. Are you okay if we leave the -- as has been requested by staff, the smaller taxing districts alone save the Rock Road one that we're going to go past the rolled-back rate on? Are you okay with that? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah. I don't have a -- you September 21, 2023 Page 183 just need to do a separate motion because I'm going to vote against the rolled-back millage rate. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I was going to do that. I was going to make that motion now. I'll start there, because that's one where we're all in consensus on. I'll make a motion that we hold those rates to the rate neutral except for Rock Road. MR. JOHNSON: And if I may, some of those areas had advisory boards, so it's basically the policy rate that was -- some of them lowered it already a little. It's not neutral. Some of them went back to rollback is what -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: My language -- MR. JOHNSON: As listed -- can we do "as listed"? MR. FINN: Yeah, as presented. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: As presented, that's fine. It says the same thing, for my understanding. So you have a lot more specificity. So as listed, except for Rock Road, which is past rollback, based upon your equations. That's my motion for those. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Second it. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. We've got a motion and a second. All in favor? COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So that one was kind of a no-brainer. So if you would, then, on your proposal go into a review and also be specific about -- because I think we all care about September 21, 2023 Page 184 Conservation Collier, and I'd like the way the numbers worked out a lot better than -- what some of the alternatives were, and I'm trying to find something in the middle that I think -- MR. FINN: And if I may -- if I may, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. MR. FINN: So just looking at what's on our screen right now, we're now dealing with the top three county-wide levies -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Correct. MR. FINN: -- as well as the top levy in the lower section, which is the unincorporated area, and I'll just kind of tell you what I think I know. I believe it's the Board's intent for us to calculate what the rolled-back rate is for those four millages and start at that basis. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: That's correct. MR. FINN: And that is where we're at. I believe that Commissioner McDaniel's going to tell us again what he's thinking to do with the Conservation Collier budget, what to do with the reserves, and find a way to -- we will find a way to replace that money for the rolled-back adjustment to the General Fund -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Out of those reserves. MR. FINN: -- out of that, and if there's money beyond that, we'll attempt to do the same in 111 and the Pollution Control Fund. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: That's correct. So the motion is move to the rolled-back rate on those four funds: General Fund, Pollution Control, Conservation Collier, and Unincorporated. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And then explain to me what happens with Conservation Collier. Because you were moving some things around. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I can do that in a third motion, if you wish. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I do. September 21, 2023 Page 185 COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Or do you want me to -- I can say it again, if you wish. We reduce the reserves in Conservation Collier by an amount to no less than 10 million. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: They had 28-. COMMISSIONER HALL: No, 37- after their -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, I gotcha you. They'd have 37-, right? MR. FINN: And if I may, we probably need to be just a little cautious because, remember, we're reducing it to rollback, which means we're going to be generating money in that fund. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: That's correct. MR. FINN: So I think what you're -- our intent is to leave 10 million in reserves for maintenance. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Correct. MR. FINN: Do you want us to first fund this year's budget for maintenance, or do you want us to reduce the 10- by the amount that they're planning to spend for maintenance? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: There's a little bit fluff. In my numbers, there's a little bit fluff left in Conservation Collier, Ed. And so in my numbers -- because currently, right now, we have 40 million in reserves for escrow -- in the escrow for reserves for maintenance, and that's going to be increased by $7,750,000 at the rolled-back rate. So that's going to take the reserves for escrow for maintenance to 48 million, and that will let you reduce -- reducing that down gives you about a 37-, $38 million delta there, and then with the balance of the increase -- or the revenues that come in, we'll take the 28 million that we currently have in acquisitions fund and increase it by 23 million, and we would then reduce those reserves down to no less than 20-. And so the phrasing of it to no less than 20- allows for float September 21, 2023 Page 186 there to come -- if this year's maintenance costs are $1 million, you've got a -- you've got a $5 million spread between the reduction if we reduce it to no less than the 10 million. And if you want to fund up -- MR. FINN: Right. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- this year's operations -- MR. FINN: And I'm going to ask Mr. Johnson to try to report that back to you before we make -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let me just ask one question of Commissioner McDaniel. But they still get the 31 million -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Correct. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- from the rollback. I mean, we have -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Twenty million. And, Commissioner LoCastro, the 31 million at the rolled-back rate, 25 percent of that's dedicated to reserves for -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Reserves. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- maintenance, and then the 75 percent set aside for acquisitions. Seventy-five -- 31 million is divided into 75/25. And so we've got -- we've got 28 million in the reserves today. We're going to add 23 million. MR. FINN: What I think I'm hearing -- and I'm going to ask Chris to parrot this back. So the revenue side's going to take care of itself. That's going to be rollback. On the expense side, we're going to be left with a reserve of no less than 10- in the maintenance side and a total funding for acquisitions of no less than 20 -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Correct. MR. FINN: -- on the expense side. And I'm going to ask for a little leeway to leave some of their operating expenses above that in there, if we can. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: If my numbers are halfways September 21, 2023 Page 187 close, that's $67 million that can be drawn out of those reserves, plus/minus, and that -- and you have a $62 million delta with the rolled-back rate and the rate neutral. MR. FINN: Chris, say something. MR. JOHNSON: I just want to make sure -- and I think I understand. So we will reduce the millage rate to rolled-back. That will cause a shortfall -- I won't say a shortfall. It will reduce the revenue. We will then take the reserves from Conservation Collier maintenance and the money that would be going into -- to increase the land purchases to basically fill -- backfill that revenue that was pulled out. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Correct. Spread it out amongst what you've already proposed in these -- in these budget documents. MR. JOHNSON: Yep. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: That still leaves Conservation Collier with what? MR. JOHNSON: I'll be able to tell you that in approximately -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thirty something million. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It should be no less than 30 million. MR. JOHNSON: Thirty-plus. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And if you -- MR. FINN: Thirty, plus some money for operating. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Plus 5- -- you should have about 5 million to float back and forth between acquisitions and maintenance, if my math's close. COMMISSIONER HALL: It is. MR. FINN: Okay. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: So moved. COMMISSIONER HALL: Second. September 21, 2023 Page 188 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So I have -- MR. FINN: We have the MSTU motion made, seconded, and approved. We talked about moving General Fund, the Pollution Control Fund, and Conservation Collier fund down to -- COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Rolled-back. MR. FINN: -- rollback, and Fund 111 back to rollback. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Correct. MS. PATTERSON: That's his motion. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So I have a motion on that from Commissioner McDaniel, second from Commissioner Hall. All in favor? COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So that passes 4-1. But as the County Attorney said, when you come back to us to show us what it looks like in black and white, we always have the opportunity to reattack if we don't like what we see, correct? MR. FINN: Yes, of course, sir. And I'm going to, again, kind of put Chris on the spot. Chris, how does the stopwatch look on getting this done? MR. JOHNSON: I think we could try the 90 with the understanding that if we're not there yet, we may have to come up and push it a few more minutes to take care of all the paperwork we're going to need to do downstairs. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: You need an hour and a half? MR. JOHNSON: At least. MR. FINN: Commissioner, we did some tabletop exercises on September 21, 2023 Page 189 this, and it was in excess of three hours. It was nominally more complicated than this, but not substantially more complicated. So when Chris says 90 minutes, I -- truly, I apologize. It's going to take that long, but that's where we exercised this out. We just can't be sure on this. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And I don't mean to be -- my understanding was you already know what the rollback rates are. MR. JOHNSON: Correct. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: They're posted. And we're leaving -- and you already know what the listed rates are for the small MSTUs. MR. JOHNSON: Correct. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: You don't have to calculate the reserve reductions in Conservation Collier tonight. MR. JOHNSON: We do to get to the -- to get to the gross and net budgets, and we also need to recalculate all the TIF districts that are associated with those districts. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. I didn't -- MR. JOHNSON: And if we want to go with 60 minutes and then if we're not there, I mean, I'm open. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Just give us an update of how it's going. I mean, you need to take the time that you need. This is real money and it's significant. COMMISSIONER HALL: Burning daylight. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So no one's rushing you. Let's stop talking here. We have voted. You're going to do the math equation, and then we'll come back and see what it looks like. Commissioners, wait a minute -- hold on. Commissioner Saunders, sir. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I think we have to give them kind of a time-certain that we're going to come back. September 21, 2023 Page 190 COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Give them an hour. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. I'd like an update in an hour, you know, and that could be, hey, we're not even close, but -- MR. JOHNSON: That works. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- at least we would know. So, you know, you say at 12:15, somebody tell us something. Does that sound fair? MR. JOHNSON: That works for us. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: We'll be back at 12:15? MS. PATTERSON: 12:15. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. Or if we hear from Ms. Patterson a different way. But if you want us to -- if we don't hear anything, we are going to be sitting here at 12:15 to get an update; is that fair? MS. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. (A recess was had from 11:18 p.m. to 12:15 a.m.) MS. PATTERSON: Chair, we need another 30 minutes. So that will be at -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you. MS. PATTERSON: -- 12:45, hopefully. Thank you. (A recess was had from 12:15 a.m. to 12:45 a.m.) MS. PATTERSON: Chair, we have a live mic, and we need another 30 minutes. That takes us to 1:15. Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Great. Approved. (A recess was had from 12:45 a.m. to 1:15 a.m.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I have a live mic? MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. We're still in session. So, Mr. Johnson, I'll turn it over to you. MR. JOHNSON: Ed, do you want to get started? MR. FINN: Sure. September 21, 2023 Page 191 MR. JOHNSON: While I find where we're at. MR. FINN: All right. I think we've been through public comments. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Troy, is there anybody on the line? Yeah, troy's at home in his bed. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Troy left. MR. FINN: Well, it's a pleasure to be back. Thank you for your patience. Thank you to Mr. Johnson and his team, and I know it was a struggle to wait for us, but Chris and his gang beat the times they ran today by quite a bit. We're going to cross our fingers and hope for the best. We talked about cutting 62 million. The Board was kind enough to give us a little bit of flexibility on the MSTUs. I told you they were about 1 million, a little over 1 million. So you can see, if we're generous in our rounding here, the proposed tax dollars to the new tax dollars gives us a variance of -- I'm going to be generous and round it up to 61 million. That was our target. The funds that have been changed include, as we discussed, the General Fund, the Pollution Control Fund, Conservation Collier, those being the countywide funds, the other being the Unincorporated Area General Fund, and I think we're going to find those new tax dollars are rollback, and I think Chris has another sheet. MR. JOHNSON: What do you want to see, Ed? MR. FINN: Let's take a look at that change. So one of the things that we need to get you to approve is the change -- changes to the tentative budget. You remember we came in tonight, and we didn't have any changes before we started. We talked about the changes, and we need to do that as part of this process, and then we need to get you to authorize or approve a resolution to that effect. The last slide, Chris. September 21, 2023 Page 192 This slide, you'll remember, is the tax dollars. MR. JOHNSON: This is the tax dollars. MR. FINN: Tax dollars, and the far right-hand column is the percentage change from rolled-back. MR. JOHNSON: Can we put that on the visualizer. MS. PATTERSON: Maybe. MR. FINN: That worked well. That worked well. No, that's good, good for me. And this is -- this is the change in the millage, and remember that was 11 percent when we started, Chris, the original changes countywide. MR. JOHNSON: Correct. MR. FINN: The 11 percent range, and now we are at zero change from rolled-back in the General Fund. Water Pollution Control, Conservation Collier, and the subtotal countywide, and the first named fund in the lower section is the Unincorporated Area General Fund, and you'll see that zero. And Rock Road is towards the bottom, up from the bottom -- eighth one up from the bottom. And you can see that now has a 64 percent -- 64.8 or '9 percent reduction from the rolled-back rate. Did we have any other new things here? I'm going to try to pick up -- I believe I'm at Agenda 1D now, Chris. MR. JOHNSON: All right. MR. FINN: Which is the -- MR. JOHNSON: Adoption. That will the adoption of the tentative -- the amendments to the tentative budgets, the resolution. MR. FINN: ***Right. Oh, so that -- so we're actually going back to Item 1B, discussions of further amendments to the tentative budget. MR. JOHNSON: Correct. And if the Board is okay with this, we can move forward with adopting the resolution that does amend September 21, 2023 Page 193 the tentative budget. MR. FINN: Okay. MR. JOHNSON: But this would be a time for discussion. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: One of the things I want you to do at some point -- because the number-one question we're all going to get -- or I know I'm going to get -- is exactly what did we do to Conservation Collier. So I think if in -- with some brevity, if we did nothing, what would they have gotten, you know, if we left it exactly at .25, what the numbers would have been, and what did we do. I want to make sure I've got that concrete and that we're all singing from the same sheet of music, because if Commissioner Hall tells his constituents something and it's even a little bit different than the way I explain it or vice versa, that's -- you know, I mean, 99 percent of the people in the room were about Conservation Collier. So I don't think too many people are going to be asking us about the libraries and sewer, but... COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Can I -- do you want to have that discussion, or do you want to take care of the statutory things that we need to do? I mean -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. I didn't say it had to be now. I just said at some point. It could be something you email to us, you know, but I just think it would be smart for us to all have something. MR. FINN: Happy to do it. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Let's take care of -- MR. FINN: Happy to do it. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. MR. FINN: Okay. Having said that, we are going to move to -- Mr. County Attorney, Item D, resolution to amend the tentative budget, and perhaps we can switch back over to Chris' presentation here. September 21, 2023 Page 194 MR. JOHNSON: I'm trying to do it. I think I got it. Laptop, is that the one? Oh, podium computer. That would make more sense. MR. FINN: Item 1D. Under Item 1D is resolution amending the tentative budgets. Based on Board direction, we've made the necessary change to the tentative budget and arrived at an amended tentative budget. If there's no further discussion of this, staff would request a motion to approve the resolution amending the tentative budgets. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Do you want to make a motion to approve? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Second. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Motion from Commissioner LoCastro, second from Commissioner McDaniel. Pardon me? Commissioner Saunders, sir. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Is this the motion that would result in the rolled-back millage rate, or are we -- MR. FINN: This is -- the first order of business is to adopt the changes to the tentative budget, and we will move through -- the next step is a public reading of the rolled-back millage rates, followed by the adoption of a resolution setting those millage rates. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, I'm voting against going to the rolled-back millage rate. So I'm asking, is this the motion that does that? What does this motion do? MR. FINN: This motion, in fact, sets -- this sets in motion getting to rolled-back millage rates. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So I have a motion from Commissioner LoCastro to approve the tentative budget, a second from Commissioner McDaniel. All in favor? COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye. September 21, 2023 Page 195 COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: No. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So it passes 4-1. Next? MR. FINN: Very good. Agenda Item 1E, public reading of the taxing authority levying millage, the name of the taxing authority, the rolled-back rate percentage increase, and the millage rate to be levied. Chris will handle these honors. MR. JOHNSON: All right. I'll begin in just one second. I want to -- all right. Without further ado, if you guys are ready, I'll start off with the General Fund 001, new Fund 0001, the proposed millage rate is 3.2043. The rolled-back millage rate is 3.2043. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 0.00 percent. Water Pollution Control Fund 114, new Fund 1017, the proposed millage rate is 0.0263. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.0263. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 0.00 percent. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Can you put what you're reading up on the visualizer just so we can sort of follow along. Yeah, thanks. MR. JOHNSON: All right. Conservation Collier Fund 172, new Fund 1061. The proposed millage rate is 0.2242. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.2242. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 0.00 percent. Unincorporated General Fund 111, new Fund 1011, proposed millage rate is 0.7280. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.7280. MR. KLATZKOW: Chris, do you need more than a majority vote for some of these taxing districts? September 21, 2023 Page 196 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, for the MSTUs below. MR. KLATZKOW: Yes, you do. So you might want to bifurcate the motion. MR. JOHNSON: This is just the reading, Jeff. We'll go into the -- MR. KLATZKOW: Well, I'm just -- you need to bifurcate this. That's all I'm telling you. MR. FINN: Mr. Attorney, we will. Once we get through the reading -- public reading, the next step is the adoption of the resolution setting the millage rates, and at that point in time we will attempt to separate it as you suggest, to get it to the votes we need. MR. JOHNSON: All right. I'm going to back up one, because I don't think I finished that one. Unincorporated General Fund 111, 1011 is the new fund number, the proposed millage rate is 0.7280. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.7280. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 0.00 percent. Golden Gate Community Center Fund 130, new Fund 1605, the proposed millage rate is 0.1862. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.1682. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 10.70 percent. Victoria Park Drainage Fund 134, new Fund 1608, the proposed millage rate is 0.3814. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.3399. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 12.21 percent. Naples Park Drainage Fund 139, new Fund No. 1613, the proposed millage rate is 0.0041. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.0035. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 17.14 percent. Vanderbilt Beach MSTU Fund 143, new Fund 1617, the proposed millage rate is 0.5000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.4629. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is September 21, 2023 Page 197 8.01 percent. Ochopee Fire Control Fund 146, new Fund 1040, the proposed millage rate is 4.000. The rolled-back millage rate is 3.5359. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 13.13 percent. Goodland/Horrs Island Fire MSTU Fund 149, new Fund 1041, the proposed millage rate is 1.2760. The rolled-back millage rate is 1.1058. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 15.39 percent. Sabal Palm MSTU Fund 151, new Fund 1619, the proposed millage rate is 0. The rolled-back millage rate is 0. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 0. Lely Golf Estates Beautification MSTU 152, new Fund 1620, the proposed millage rate is 2.0000. The rolled-back millage rate is 1.7722. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 12.85 percent. Golden Gate Parkway Beautification MSTU Fund 153, new Fund 1621, the proposed millage rate is 0.5000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.4502. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 11.06 percent. Hawksridge Stormwater Pumping MSTU Fund 154, new Fund 1622, the proposed millage rate is 0.0318. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.0282. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 12.77 percent. Radio Road Beautification MSTU Fund 158, new Fund No. 1625, the proposed millage rate is 0. The rolled-back millage rate is 0. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 0 percent. Forest Lakes Roadway and Drainage Fund 159, new Fund 1626, the proposed millage rate is 4.0000. The rolled-back millage rate is 3.5076. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 14.04 percent. Immokalee Beautification MSTU Fund 162, new Fund September 21, 2023 Page 198 No. 1629, the proposed millage rate is 1.0000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.9613. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 4.03 percent. Bayshore Avalon Beautification MSTU Fund 163, new Fund No. 1630, the proposed millage rate is 2.1104. The rolled-back millage rate is 2.0971. The proposed change from the rolled-back rate is 0.63 percent. Haldeman Creek Dredging MSTU Fund 164, new Fund 1631, the proposed millage rate is 1.0000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.8996. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 11.16 percent. Rock Road MSTU Fund 165, new Fund 1632, the proposed millage rate is 0.2847. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.8109. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is negative 64.89 percent. Vanderbilt Waterways MSTU Fund 168, new Fund 1635, the proposed millage rate is 0.3000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.2719. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 10.33 percent. Forest Lakes Debt Service Fund 259, new Fund 2014, the proposed millage rate is 0. The rolled-back millage rate is 0. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 0 percent. Blue Sage MSTU Fund 341, new Fund 3080, the proposed millage rate is 3.0000. The rolled-back millage rate is 2.8835. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 4.04 percent. Collier County Lighting Fund 760, new Fund 1601, the proposed millage rate is 0.1025. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.1025. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 0 percent. 42nd Avenue Southeast MSTU Fund 761, new Fund 1637, the proposed millage rate is 1.0000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0.7805. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 28.12 percent. September 21, 2023 Page 199 Palm River Sidewalk MSTU Fund 1638, the proposed millage rate is 0. -- I'm sorry. The proposed millage rate is 0.5000. The rolled-back millage rate is 0. This is a new MSTU, so there's no calculated change from rollback. Pelican Bay MSTBU Fund 778, new Fund 1008, proposed millage rate is 0.0857. Rolled-back millage rate is 0.0789. The percent change from the rolled-back rate is 8.62 percent. And then I'm going to have to look back here to read you guys the aggregated millage rates. The aggregate millage rate proposed is 4.004. The rolled-back rate is 4.0025. MR. FINN: Can you check that, please. Would you reread the proposed millage rate. I think you might have missed a zero there. MR. JOHNSON: 4.0004, the rolled-back rate is 4.0025, and the percent change is negative 0.05 percent. Did I miss any other ones, Mr. Finn? MR. FINN: I don't think so, Chris. Thank you very much. MR. JOHNSON: Perfect. Thank you. Appreciate it. MR. FINN: Okay. So that is Item 1A [sic], the public reading of the taxing authority levies. We're going to move to Item 1F, which is adoption of a resolution setting millage rates, and we will attempt to deal with separating these. Item 1F on your agenda is adoption of the resolution setting the '23/'24 millage rates and, if I may, separate motion on a couple of things. First motion I would recommend is for the dependent districts and MSTUs in the lower section of this chart, absent -- that is without the unincorporated area, and I'm going to come back around and get -- and get a motion on the top four that we made changes to. So, again, if I could, a motion adopting the dependent taxing districts and MSTUs absent the Unincorporated Area General Fund. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: So moved. September 21, 2023 Page 200 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Second. So I've got a motion from Commissioner McDaniel and a second from Commissioner LoCastro. All in favor? COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously. MR. FINN: Thank you. The second motion, sir, would be a motion adopting the General Fund millage rate, the Water Pollution Control millage rate, the Conservation Collier millage rate, and the Unincorporated Area General Fund millage rate. Those represent the millage rates that we rolled back to rollback this evening. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Do I have a motion? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: So moved. COMMISSIONER HALL: Second. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Second. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. I've got a motion from Commissioner McDaniel, a second -- I'll give it to Commissioner Kowal. All in favor? COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes 4-1. MR. FINN: Thank you, sir. September 21, 2023 Page 201 Item 1G, resolution to adopt the final budget by fund, and we'll do this -- we'll separate the motions here as well. Item 1G is a resolution to adopt the final FY '23/'24 budget by fund. This action, again, requires some separate motions. And, again, the first motion, if we could, the dependent -- dependent districts and MSTUs absent the Unincorporated Area General Fund, adoption of the resolution -- I'm sorry -- the resolution to adopt the final budget by fund. Motion to do so. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So moved. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Second. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. I've got a motion by Commissioner Kowal, a second by Commissioner Hall [sic]. All in favor? COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It was technically me, by the way. Terri's looking at me crooked. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Oh, it was. Okay. So motion by Commissioner Kowal, second by Commissioner McDaniel. All in favor? COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed? (No response.) September 21, 2023 Page 202 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously. MR. FINN: Sir, second motion, similar to what we did with the millages, motion to adopt the General Fund budget, the Water Pollution Control budget, the Conservation Collier budget, and the Unincorporated Area General Fund budget. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. I'll make a motion to approve. Do I have a second? COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Second. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Motion to approve by Commissioner LoCastro, second by Commissioner Kowal. All in favor? COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye. COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed? COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes 4-1. MR. FINN: Thank you, sir. Thank the Board for their patience; staff, and constitutional officers for putting the budget together. It was a long, long evening. It's certainly been a long process, and I applaud us all for getting through it. We did -- we did actually focus a lot of attention on the budget this year. Mr. Johnson and his staff did an outstanding job, and I want to thank him. With that, Mr. Attorney, is the -- are you seeing any glitches in our -- in our 1:37 a.m. work? MR. KLATZKOW: God, I hope not. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Just a -- we had to make a September 21, 2023 Page 203 separate vote on Rock Road, and you didn't call that out. MR. FINN: Rock Road was -- did not require a unanimous vote, but we did get a unanimous vote on all of those MSTUs. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. MR. FINN: So when Chris -- when Chris read in that change in millage, that also changed the budget. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. COMMISSIONER HALL: Nip it in the bud. MR. FINN: And there was a County Manager here that frequently would say, hope is not a strategy. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So as I saw the numbers -- and if it's premature, like I said, you can send us an email or whatever. But I'm just writing down Conservation Collier, the initial millage was .25. We voted on .2242 which, instead of giving them about 34 million, gave them 31-. That's what I saw in your slides there, right? More or less. And then -- but I know there was a -- there was a second part to -- how creatively to move the money around. This might not be the time at 1:37, but I can tell you I just want to make sure that we're not contradicting each other when our constituents reach out to us about Conservation Collier in the morning, or in a few hours. MR. FINN: Mr. Johnson put up a slide that shows you the rolled-back rate for -- or the impact of the rolled-back rate relative to Conservation Collier. The top box, third one down is the rolled-back rate. So the reduction in the taxes generated by the rolled-back rate is 3,577,600, rounded. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Then we also talked about some creative ways that we were having them use their maintenance money and their -- and their acquisition money, correct? MR. FINN: Yes, sir. We -- behind the scenes here, we redistributed those monies, largely in accordance with Board's September 21, 2023 Page 204 direction. As Commissioner McDaniel had kind of estimated, there was a little bit -- a little bit left on the table, so to speak, and at the moment we left that in Conservation Collier. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So what we did is we -- they have 10 million in the bank for maintenance and 20 million in the bank for acquisition, correct? MR. FINN: Yes. They have -- they have that. In fact, a little bit more on the acquisition side. I think that's where we left the -- MR. JOHNSON: Correct. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: What's "a little bit more"? Give me a number. What's not 20-? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: What's a little bit more? CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And then one of the things, I think, came out tonight is in the last two years, they've spent $5 million on properties, correct? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Plus/minus. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Plus or minus. MR. FINN: Yes, sir. The budget, as amended, has approximately 27 million remaining in the reserve and/or what we actually -- rather than put that in a reserve -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So they have 27 million for acquisition and 10 million for maintenance; is that correct? MR. FINN: For acquisition. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, 27 million? MR. FINN: Yes, sir, rounded up, as well as -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. And 10 million for maintenance? MR. FINN: There's 10 million unfunded -- I'm sorry. There's a $10 million reserve for maintenance and the budget that have been established for the maintenance, which also -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Right. September 21, 2023 Page 205 MR. FINN: -- remains in their budget. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'm with you. Okay. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I think Commissioner LoCastro's just wanting to clarify that we left 37 million or so -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yep. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- in Conservation Collier for both maintenance and future decisions. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Because we're going to get questions that we slashed Conservation Collier, they have no money, they're not going to be able to do what they do. We didn't care about the environment, and we made a bunch of poor decisions tonight. But, you know, I think if somebody was sitting in here, I would take exception to that, but -- MR. FINN: And we did, in fact, leave money in there. The outcome, actually -- a pretty creative idea to get to where we are on this. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And every single commissioner here said, if a piece of property came to our front door that we couldn't live without, we would -- we would figure out a way to do it, so... COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: We vote a pay cut for the Chair. COMMISSIONER HALL: I have one question before we leave. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yes, sir. Go ahead, Commissioner Hall. COMMISSIONER HALL: With this new budget, does that mean that I could get a doughnut? COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Quit. MR. FINN: Commissioner Hall, I'd be happy to buy you a doughnut anytime. September 21, 2023 Page 206 CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: What's next? What do you need from us? What's left? MR. FINN: Well, since the County Attorney has not seen a fatal flaw, at least till tomorrow morning, we actually -- CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It is tomorrow morning. You know what day tomorrow is? Saturday. MR. FINN: Since we're going to have little inside baseball jokes, Chris Johnson usually gets up about this time in the morning and starts working, so we're going to get him around the clock today. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Good. He's ready to go. MR. FINN: I did my 24-hour shift today, so... CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: What else? MR. FINN: That concludes our presentation on the '23/'24 final public hearing on the budget. Thank you all for your attention to this matter. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. I'll go to the commissioners for final comments. I don't see anybody lit up, so I'll just start. Commissioner Kowal, do you have something, sir? COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I think we were extremely creative. I think we -- at the end of the day, we're basically working with the same amount of money we were going to work with when we started out, and we rolled the millage rate back to a point that I think the citizens should be proud of us. Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders. COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I just want to thank the staff. All of you guys have been here for a long time, and you're dedicated, and I just -- I appreciate everything that you do. MR. FINN: Thank you, sir. MR. JOHNSON: Thank you. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall. September 21, 2023 Page 207 COMMISSIONER HALL: Looking forward to going forward in Collier County. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel. COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I concur with Commissioner Saunders. You folks did a yeoman's job getting through this, getting it all done, preparing it, and dealing with all of the discussions and everything, and I really, really appreciate your indulgence. Thank you. MR. JOHNSON: Thank you. MR. FINN: Thank you, sir. MR. JOHNSON: It takes a village, you know. Thank you, guys. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And I'll just say I thought you guys could have actually done a little bit better. No, I'm just kidding. MR. JOHNSON: We'll work on that. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah, my closing comments are the same, but I'll just echo, we left ourselves a lot of homework assignments here. You know, one of the reasons we made some of the decisions we made is because we feel like there's still a lot more work to do. So, you know, you've got five people up here that, regardless of how we voted today, now all five of us are committed to doing that, and I know the staff is as well. So in some cases it might be a little bit painful because we're going to dig maybe a little bit deeper than has been dug in a while, because we have to and because we should. So having said that, County Attorney, do you have any final comments, sir? MR. KLATZKOW: No, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: County Manager, anything? MS. PATTERSON: No, sir. CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Good morning. September 21, 2023 There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 1:44 a.m. on September 22, 2023. BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS CONTROL RICK LoCASTRO, CHAIRMAN ATTEST CRYSTAL Ki KINZEL, CLERK _At' .a$.o Chairman s signature only These minutes approve by the Board on /2- /2 2D23 as presented or as corrected TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF FORT MYERS COURT REPORTING BY TERRI L. LEWIS, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL COURT REPORTER, FPR-C, AND NOTARY PUBLIC. Page 208