BCC Minutes 08/22/2023August 22, 2023
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TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
Naples, Florida August 22, 2023
LET IT BE REMEMBERED that the Board of County
Commissioners, in and for the County of Collier, and also acting as
the Board of Zoning Appeals and as the governing board(s) of such
special districts as have been created according to law and having
conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m., in
REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex,
East Naples, Florida, with the following Board members present:
Chairman: Rick LoCastro
Chris Hall
Dan Kowal
William L. McDaniel, Jr.
Burt L. Saunders
ALSO PRESENT:
Amy Patterson, County Manager
Daniel Rodriguez, Deputy County Manager
Jeffrey A. Klatzkow, County Attorney
Crystal K. Kinzel, Clerk of the Circuit Court & Comptroller
Troy Miller, Communications & Customer Relations
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August 22, 2023
COLLIER COUNTY
Board of County Commissioners
Community Redevelopment Agency Board (CRAB)
Airport Authority
Agenda
Board of County Commission Chambers
Collier County Government Center
3299 Tamiami Trail East, 3rd Floor
Naples, FL 34112
August 22, 2023
9:00 AM
Commissioner Rick LoCastro, District 1; – Chair
Commissioner Chris Hall, District 2; – Vice Chair
Commissioner Burt Saunders, District 3
Commissioner Dan Kowal, District 4; – CRAB Co-Chair
Commissioner William L. McDaniel, Jr., District 5; – CRAB Co-Chair
NOTICE: ALL PERSONS WISHING TO SPEAK ON AGENDA ITEMS MUST
REGISTER PRIOR TO PRESENTATION OF THE AGENDA ITEM TO BE
ADDRESSED. ALL REGISTERED SPEAKERS WILL RECEIVE UP TO THREE
MINUTES UNLESS THE TIME IS ADJUSTED BY THE CHAIRMAN.
ADDITIONAL MINUTES MAY BE CEDED TO AN IN-PERSON SPEAKER BY
OTHER REGISTERED SPEAKERS WHO MUST BE PRESENT AT THE TIME
THE SPEAKER IS HEARD. NO PUBLIC SPEAKERS WILL BE HEARD FOR
PROCLAMATIONS, PRESENTATIONS AND PUBLIC PETITIONS.
SPEAKERS ON PRESENTATIONS ARE LIMITED TO 10 MINUTES, UNLESS
EXTENDED BY THE CHAIRMAN. ALL PERSONS WISHING TO SPEAK ON A
CONSENT ITEM MUST REGISTER PRIOR TO THE BOARD’S APPROVAL
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August 22, 2023
OF THE DAY’S CONSENT AGENDA, WHICH IS HEARD AT THE
BEGINNING OF THE MEETING FOLLOWING THE PLEDGE OF
ALLEGIANCE.
ANYONE WISHING TO ADDRESS THE BOARD ON PUBLIC PETITION
MUST SUBMIT THE REQUEST IN WRITING TO THE COUNTY MANAGER
AT LEAST 13 DAYS PRIOR TO THE DATE OF THE MEETING. THE
REQUEST SHALL PROVIDE DETAILED INFORMATION AS TO THE
NATURE OF THE PETITION. THE PUBLIC PETITION MAY NOT INVOLVE
A MATTER ON A FUTURE BOARD AGENDA, AND MUST CONCERN A
MATTER IN WHICH THE BOARD CAN TAKE ACTION. PUBLIC
PETITIONS ARE LIMITED TO A SINGLE PRESENTER, WITH A MAXIMUM
TIME OF TEN MINUTES, UNLESS EXTENDED BY THE CHAIRMAN.
SHOULD THE PETITION BE GRANTED, THE ITEM WILL BE PLACED ON A
FUTURE AGENDA FOR A PUBLIC HEARING.
ANYONE WISHING TO ADDRESS THE BOARD ON GENERAL TOPICS NOT
ON THIS AGENDA OR A FUTURE AGENDA MUST REGISTER TO SPEAK
PRIOR TO THE PUBLIC COMMENT PORTION OF THE AGENDA BEING
CALLED BY THE CHAIRMAN. SPEAKERS WILL BE LIMITED TO THREE
MINUTES, AND NO ADDITIONAL MINUTES MAY BE CEDED TO THE
SPEAKER. AT THE CHAIRMAN’S DISCRETION, THE NUMBER OF PUBLIC
SPEAKERS MAY BE LIMITED TO 5 FOR THAT MEETING.
ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD
WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDING PERTAINING THERETO,
AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD
OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THE
TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED.
COLLIER COUNTY ORDINANCE NO. 2003-53 AS AMENDED BY
ORDINANCE 2004-05 AND 2007-24, REQUIRES THAT ALL LOBBYISTS
SHALL, BEFORE ENGAGING IN ANY LOBBYING ACTIVITIES (INCLUDING
BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ADDRESSING THE BOARD OF COUNTY
COMMISSIONERS), REGISTER WITH THE CLERK TO THE BOARD AT THE
BOARD MINUTES AND RECORDS DEPARTMENT.
IF YOU ARE A PERSON WITH A DISABILITY WHO NEEDS ANY
ACCOMMODATION IN ORDER TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS PROCEEDING,
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August 22, 2023
YOU ARE ENTITLED, AT NO COST TO YOU, THE PROVISION OF CERTAIN
ASSISTANCE. PLEASE CONTACT THE COLLIER COUNTY FACILITIES
MANAGEMENT DIVISION LOCATED AT 3335 EAST TAMIAMI TRAIL,
SUITE 1, NAPLES, FLORIDA, 34112-5356, (239) 252-8380; ASSISTED
LISTENING DEVICES FOR THE HEARING IMPAIRED ARE AVAILABLE IN
THE FACILITIES MANAGEMENT DIVISION.
Lunch Recess scheduled for 12:00 Noon to 1:00 P.M
1. Invocation and Pledge of Allegiance
A. Invocation by Pastor Heath Jarvis, Faith Life Worship Center.
2. Agenda and Minutes
A. Approval of today's regular, consent and summary agenda as amended (Ex
Parte Disclosure provided by Commission members for consent agenda.)
B. July 25, 2023, Board Meeting Minutes
3. Awards and Recognitions
A. Employee
B. Advisory Board Members
C. Retirees
D. Employee of the Month
4. Proclamations
A. Proclamation designating September 2023 as Hunger Action Month in
Collier County. To be accepted by Stuart Haniff, Chief Development
Officer, Harry Chapin Food Bank of Southwest Florida.
5. Presentations
6. Public Petitions
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August 22, 2023
7. Public Comments on General Topics Not on the Current or Future Agenda
8. Board of Zoning Appeals
9. Advertised Public Hearings
A. This item to be heard at 10:30 AM. Recommendation to consider an
Ordinance establishing Collier County as a Bill of Rights Sanctuary County.
(All Districts)
B. This Item has been further continued to the September 12, 2023, BCC
Agenda. Recommendation that the Board adopts an Ordinance creating the
unpaved private road emergency repair municipal service taxing unit by
authorizing a levy of not to exceed one (1.0) mil of ad valorem taxes per
year. (This item was continued from the February 28, 2023, March 28, 2023,
and June 27, 2023, Board of County Commissioners meetings) (All
Districts)
10. Board of County Commissioners
11. County Manager's Report
A. This item to be heard at 9:30 AM. Recommendation to approve an
Economic Development Agreement for a proposed advanced manufacturing
and processing facility for the US headquarters of Dialum Glass within the
Town of Ave Maria Innovation Zone in the amount of $1,500,000. (Amy
Patterson, County Manager)
B. This item to be heard at 9:45 AM. Recommendation to approve a
negotiated Management Agreement with the Pelican Bay Foundation, Inc.,
for the management of racquet sport activities, the maintenance, and capital
improvements to enhance the services provided at Pelican Bay Community
Park, worth an estimated $6,000,000, and authorize the Chair to sign the
attached agreement. (Dan Rodriguez, Deputy County Manager)
C. Recommendation to award Invitation to Bid (“ITB”) No. 23-8106, “Solana
Road Stormwater Improvements” to Quality Enterprises USA, Inc., in the
amount of $5,258,920.70, authorize the necessary Budget Amendments, and
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August 22, 2023
authorize the Chairman to sign the attached Agreement. (Project No. 60102)
(Beth Johnssen, Capital Project Planning, Impact Fees & Program
Management Director)
D. Recommendation to accept the award and authorize Chairman to execute
Grant Agreement No. 23CO2 between the Florida Department of
Environmental Protection and Collier County for dune replanting efforts
associated with damages from Hurricanes Ian and Nicole in the amount of
$5,000,000. (Beth Johnssen, Capital Project Planning, Impact Fees &
Program Management Director)
12. County Attorney's Report
13. Other Constitutional Officers
14. Airport Authority and/or Community Redevelopment Agency
A. Airport
B. Community Redevelopment Agency
15. Staff and Commission General Communications
A. Public Comments on General Topics Not On The Current Or Future
Agenda By Individuals Not Already Heard During Previous Public
Comments In This Meeting
B. Staff Project Updates
C. Staff And Commission General Communications
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16. Consent Agenda - All matters listed under this item are considered to be
routine and action will be taken by one motion without separate discussion of
each item. If discussion is desired by a member of the Board, that item(s) will
be removed from the Consent Agenda and considered separately.
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A. Growth Management Department
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August 22, 2023
1) This item requires that ex parte disclosure be provided by
Commission members. Should a hearing be held on this item, all
participants are required to be sworn in. Recommendation to approve
for recording the final plat of Esplanade by the Islands – Giardino
Drive, Application Number PL20230008089, approval of the standard
form Construction and Maintenance Agreement, and approval of the
performance security in the amount of $2,226,936.80. (District 1)
2) Recommendation to approve a Resolution for final acceptance of the
private roadway and drainage improvements, and acceptance of the
plat dedications, for the final plat of Mussorie Village at Fiddler’s
Creek, Application Number PL20140000591 (FP) and Application
Number PL20140000367 (ICP), and, and authorize the release of the
maintenance security in the amount of $15,147.09. (District 1)
3) Recommendation to approve a Resolution for final acceptance of the
private roadway and drainage improvements, and acceptance of the
plat dedications, for the final plat of Marquesa Isles of Naples,
Application Number PL20160002811, and authorize the release of the
maintenance security in the amount of $197,105.10. (District 1)
4) Recommendation to approve final acceptance of the potable water and
sewer utility facilities for The Quarry Beach Club, PL20230007383.
(District 3)
5) Recommendation to approve final acceptance of the potable water
utility facilities and accept the conveyance of the water facilities for
The Club at Mediterra Improvements – Golf Learning,
PL20220005573. (District 2)
6) Recommendation to approve and authorize the Chairman execute
Amendment No. 1 to renew and extend the Pepper Ranch Preserve
Volunteer Camp Host Agreement for one additional year. (All
Districts)
7) Recommendation to approve an Agreement for Sale and Purchase
with 1) William Joseph Scalley, Jr. and Martha L. Scalley, 2) Patricia
E. McGinnis and Stanley E. Magner, 3) Maricel Aleu Fontela, and 4)
Delsina Trigoura and Amy Trigoura under the Conservation Collier
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August 22, 2023
Land Acquisition Program, at a cost not to exceed $146,815. (District
5)
8) Recommendation to approve the Conservation Collier Panther Walk
Preserve Multi-Parcel Project Final Management Plan update under
the Conservation Collier Program. (All Districts)
B. Transportation Management Department
1) Recommendation to approve an Agreement for the purchase of a
drainage easement (Parcel 154DE) required for the West Goodlette-
Frank Road Area Stormwater Improvement Project Phase 2 (Project
60142). Estimated Fiscal Impact: $24,500. (This item is a companion
to Item 16.B.2) (District 4)
2) Recommendation to approve an Agreement for the purchase of a
drainage easement (Parcel 144DE) required for the West Goodlette-
Frank Road Area Stormwater Improvement Project Phase 2 (Project
No. 60142). Estimated Fiscal Impact: $13,750. (This item is a
companion to Item 16.B.1) (District 4)
3) Recommendation to award Invitation to Bid (“ITB”) No. 23-8099,
“Veterans Memorial Boulevard Phase I - Proposed Noise Barrier
Wall,” to Coastal Concrete Products, LLC, in the amount of
$1,941,993.75, and authorize the Chairman to sign the attached
Agreement. (District 2)
4) Recommendation to approve and authorize the Chairman to execute
an Agreement for the purchase of a Road Right of Way, Drainage, and
Utility Easement (Parcel 515RDUE) required for the Everglades
Boulevard North and 43rd Avenue Northeast Intersection
Improvements Project (Project No. 60256). Estimated Fiscal Impact:
$33,421.46. (District 5)
5) Recommendation to appropriate an additional $2,667 to the Collier
Metropolitan Planning Organization’s annual operating budget for FY
23/24 and authorize the necessary budget amendment. (All Districts)
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August 22, 2023
6) Recommendation to approve an amendment to an Easement
Agreement between the County and Vanderbilt Community
Association Inc., that provided for the acquisition of Parcels
111RDUE1, 111RDUE2, 111TCE, 111TDRE, and 101TCE, required
for construction of roadway and related improvements to Vanderbilt
Beach Road (Project No. 60168). Estimated Fiscal Impact: None.
(District 3)
7) Recommendation to approve and authorize the Chairman to sign an
addendum to Grant Agreement No. RT015 between the County and
the Florida Department of Environmental Protection (FDEP) for
Biological Debris Removal associated with Red Tide within Collier
County to allow the existing agreement to remain active and to
approve an Inter-local Agreement for Biological Debris Removal
between the County and the City of Naples. (All Districts)
8) Recommendation to approve an updated Collier Area Transit (CAT)
Transit Asset Management (TAM) Plan and Public Transportation
Agency Safety Plan (PTASP) to reflect and identify the new Public
Transit & Neighborhood Enhancement (PTNE) Division Director,
Brian Wells, as the Accountable Executive, to ensure compliance with
49 C.F.R. Parts 625 and 673. (All Districts)
C. Public Utilities Department
D. Public Services Department
1) Recommendation to approve and authorize the Chairman to sign a
Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between Collier County and
the Collier County Hunger and Homeless Coalition, Inc., to allow
staff to participate in the Continuum of Care weekly client meeting.
(Housing Grant Fund 1835) (All Districts)
2) Recommendation to approve and authorize the Chairman to sign four
(4) Emergency Solutions Grants CV Agreement amendments between
Collier County and (1) NAMI Collier County, Inc., (ES20-05), (2 &
3) The Shelter for Abused Women & Children, Inc., for ES20-04 and
ES22-01, and (4) Collier County Hunger & Homeless Coalition, Inc.,
(ES21-02) in response to additional HUD guidance published in the
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August 22, 2023
Community Planning and Development (CPD) Monitoring Handbook
(6509.2): CARES ACT (ESG-CV). (All Districts)
E. Corporate Business Operations
1) Recommendation for the Board of County Commissioners to ratify
agreements and authorize necessary Budget Amendment for the
executed Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between Collier
County Emergency Medical Service (EMS) for the Public Health
Infrastructure to decrease ARP21-06 (Public Health and Safety
Operations and Response program) by the amount of $1,000,000 and
to increase ARP21-23 (Collier Public Health Infrastructure program)
in the amount of $1,000,000 within the Emergency Medical Services
Grant Fund (4053) for the purchase of equipment and delivery costs
of up to four new ambulances and four light body trucks under the
American Rescue Plan Act, Local Fiscal Recovery Fund. (All
Districts)
F. County Manager Operations
1) Recommendation to adopt a Resolution approving amendments
(appropriating grants, donations, contributions, or insurance proceeds)
to the Fiscal Year 2022-23 Adopted Budget. (The Budget
Amendments in the attached Resolution have been reviewed and
approved by the Board of County Commissioners via separate
Executive Summaries.) (All Districts)
2) Recommendation to approve the proposed Collier County State
Appropriations Project Requests to be part of the Board’s State and
Federal Legislative and Administrative Priorities for 2024. (All
Districts)
3) Recommendation to award Invitation to Bid (“ITB”) No. 23-8061R,
“HVAC Maintenance and Remedial Repairs,” to B & I Contractors,
Inc., and authorize the Chairman to sign the attached agreement. (All
Districts)
4) Recommendation to award Request for Quotes (“RFQ”) for the
“Growth Management Community Development Department Front
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August 22, 2023
and Walkway Canopy” project, under Agreement No. 19-7525, the
Annual Agreement for General Contractors, to EBL Partners, LLC.,
and authorize the issuance of a numbered purchase order in the
amount of $449,570.87. (District 4)
5) Recommendation to award Invitation to Bid (“ITB”) No. 23-8146,
“Bottled Drinking Water, Dispensers, and Cups,” to low bidder D.T.
Water, LLC d/b/a Mast Family Culligan, and authorize staff to open a
standard County Purchase Order based on the unit prices provided.
(All Districts)
6) Recommendation to terminate Professional Services Agreement No.
20-7749, “Design Services for Domestic Animal Services Facility,”
with ADG Architecture, LLC. (All Districts)
7) Recommendation to approve a report covering budget amendments
impacting reserves up to and including $25,000, and moving funds in
an amount up to and including $50,000. (All Districts)
8) Recommendation to approve spending up to $50,000 for appraisal and
pre-contract expenses for due diligence and authorize staff to transmit
a non-binding Letter of Intent to commence negotiations for the
purchase of 2,247 +/- acres of property at Williams Reserve at Lake
Trafford located in Immokalee for conservation, parks and recreation,
transportation, stormwater management, economic development, and
co-location of fire operations with a potential partnership with
Immokalee Fire and Rescue District, and authorize necessary budget
amendment. (All Districts)
G. Airport Authority
1) Recommendation that the Board of County Commissioners, acting as
the Collier County Airport Authority, approve and authorize the
Chairman to execute a utility easement to Lee County Electric
Cooperative, Inc., (LCEC) at the Immokalee Regional Airport to
provide electricity to a tenant's aircraft hangars and flight school
offices. (District 5)
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August 22, 2023
H. Board of County Commissioners
I. Miscellaneous Correspondence
J. Other Constitutional Officers
1) Recommendation that the Board of County Commissioners serve as
the local coordinating unit of government for the Florida Department
of Law Enforcement’s Federal Fiscal Year 2022 Edward Byrne
Memorial, Justice Assistance Grant (JAG) Countywide Program and
(1) authorize the Chairman to execute the Certification of
Participation; (2) designate the Sheriff as the official applicant and the
Sheriff’s office staff as grant financial and program managers; (3)
authorize the acceptance of the grant if and when awarded; and (4)
approve associated Budget Amendments and approve the Collier
County Sheriff’s Office to receive and expend the grant funds. (All
Districts)
2) To record in the minutes of the Board of County Commissioners, the
check number (or other payment method), amount, payee, and
purpose for which the referenced disbursements were drawn for the
periods between July 27, 2023 and August 09, 2023 pursuant to
Florida Statute 136.06. (All Districts)
3) Request that the Board approve and determine valid public purpose
for invoices payable and purchasing card transactions as of August 16,
2023. (All Districts)
K. County Attorney
1) Recommendation to approve and authorize the Chairman to execute a
Settlement Agreement in the amount of $22,500 to settle the lawsuit
styled Joseph Frantz v. Collier County Board of County
Commissioners, Case No. 2:22-cv-300 now pending in the United
States District Court, Middle District of Florida Fort Myers Division.
(All Districts)
L. Community Redevelopment
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August 22, 2023
1) Recommendation that the Board of County Commissioners, acting as
the Community Redevelopment Agency Board (CRA), approve a six-
month extension of the project completion date set forth in the
Commercial Building Improvement Grant (CBIG) Agreement
between the CRA and Southern Region Development, LLC, for the
property located at 2600 Davis Boulevard, Naples, Florida 34112
located within the Bayshore Gateway Triangle Community
Redevelopment Area. (District 4)
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17. SUMMARY AGENDA - This section is for advertised public hearings and
must meet the following criteria: 1) A recommendation for approval from
staff; 2) Unanimous recommendation for approval by the Collier County
Planning Commission or other authorizing agencies of all members present
and voting; 3) No written or oral objections to the item received by staff, the
Collier County Planning Commission, other authorizing agencies or the
Board, prior to the commencement of the BCC meeting on which the items
are scheduled to be heard; and 4) No individuals are registered to speak in
opposition to the item. For those items which are quasi-judicial in nature, all
participants must be sworn in.
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A. Recommendation to adopt an amendment to the "Regulation of Outdoor
Burning and Incendiary Devices during Drought Conditions Ordinance"
(Ord. 2009-23, as amended) in order to authorize the Chair or, in his or her
absence, the Vice-Chair to revoke an existing Burn Ban by Resolution. (All
Districts)
18. ADJOURN
INQUIRIES CONCERNING CHANGES TO THE BOARD’S AGENDA SHOULD
BE MADE TO THE COUNTY MANAGER’S OFFICE AT 252-8383.
August 22, 2023
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P R O C E E D I N G S
MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Good morning, everyone. How
are you this morning?
AUDIENCE: Good morning.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: We've got a busy and big day.
Lots of varied topics.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: How are you?
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Doing great. How are you, sir?
Doing great. My colleagues, everybody's bright-eyed and
bushy-tailed. Let's get rolling.
MS. PATTERSON: Let's begin with the invocation and Pledge
of Allegiance. Our invocation is going to be by Pastor Heath Jarvis,
Faith Life Worship Center.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And our Pledge is going to be from
Ms. Laurie Stanley who is here representing the Harry Chapin Food
Bank.
Item #1A
INVOCATION BY PASTOR HEATH JARVIS, FAITH LIFE
WORSHIP CENTER. - INVOCATION GIVEN
PASTOR JARVIS: Good morning. Let's pray.
Father in heaven, we are grateful for this occasion to come
together as the leadership of Collier County. We are thankful to live
in a nation of such great opportunity and influence.
Lord, we are thankful that we can come before you today
publicly and freely, without fear of reprisal from our government.
What a blessed people we are.
We're thankful for our community here in Collier County, and
August 22, 2023
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we ask for your guidance as decisions are made today that will affect
all who live here.
Lord, we acknowledge your providence and we invoke your
wisdom as we communicate with each other this morning. Help us
today and every day to operate in a spirit of peace. We realize that
each of us are passionate about our views, so help us to channel that
passion into constructive conversation rather than destructive
arguing.
Lord, I pray for all of the leaders in this room. I know their
jobs are not easy. Their burden that they carry is not always light.
But your word tells us that your yoke is easy and your burden is light.
So we pray that our leadership trades their heavy burdens for your
light burden, and I pray they don't carry those heavy burdens home to
their families.
Today I simply pray, Lord, that you do as your word says you
will do, make crooked paths straight, shut the mouths of lions, open
doors no man can open, give good and perfect gifts, direct our paths.
I thank you for this, and I pray this in Jesus' name. Amen.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Ms. Stanley.
(The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am.
Thank you, Pastor.
PASTOR JARVIS: You're welcome.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: We need all the prayers we can
get.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Some of us more than others.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: What was -- what was all the
chimes from heaven on your laptop there?
County Manager?
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, agenda changes for
August 22nd, 2023.
August 22, 2023
Page 4
First we have, moving Item 16A7 to 11E. This is a
recommendation to approve an agreement for sale and purchase with
William Joseph Scalley, Jr., and Martha L. Scalley; 2, Patricia E.
McGinnis and Stanley E. Magner; 3, Maricel Aleu Fontela; and, 4,
Delsina Trigoura and Amy Trigoura, under the Conservation Collier
Land Acquisition Program, at a cost not to exceed $146,815. This is
being moved to regular agenda at Commissioner LoCastro's request.
We have a number of time-certains today. The first is Item 11A
to be heard at 9:30. This is a recommendation to approve an
economic development agreement with Dialum Glass; second,
Item 11B to be heard at 9:45, which is a recommendation to approve
a negotiated management agreement with Pelican Bay Foundation for
the management of racquet sports activities, the maintenance and
capital improvements at Pelican Bay Community Park; and, finally,
Item 9A, to be heard no sooner than 10:30 a.m., which is a
recommendation to consider an ordinance establishing Collier
County as a Bill of Rights Sanctuary County.
We have court reporter breaks scheduled for 10:30 and 2:50.
With that, County Attorney.
MR. KLATZKOW: Nothing. Thank you.
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, Chair, changes and ex
parte on the consent and summary.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Commissioner Kowal, do
you have any changes to the agenda or any ex parte on consent or
summary?
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I have no changes, and I have no
disclosure for ex parte items.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you. I have no
disclosure and no changes as well.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall.
August 22, 2023
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COMMISSIONER HALL: Same.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Same.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Same for me, too. No changes; no
disclosures.
Next?
Item #2A
APPROVAL OF TODAY'S REGULAR, CONSENT AND
SUMMARY AGENDA AS AMENDED (EX PARTE DISCLOSURE
PROVIDED BY COMMISSION MEMBERS FOR CONSENT
AGENDA.) - MOTION TO APPROVE BY COMMISSIONER
HALL; SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER MCDANIEL –
APPROVED – 5/0
SEE REVERSE SIDE
Proposed Agenda Changes
Board of County Commissioners Meeting
August 22, 2023
Move Item 16A7 to 11E: Recommendation to approve an Agreement for Sale and Purchase with 1) William
Joseph Scalley, Jr. and Martha L. Scalley, 2) Patricia E. McGinnis and Stanley E. Magner, 3) Maricel Aleu Fontela,
and 4) Delsina Trigoura and Amy Trigoura under the Conservation Collier Land Acquisition Program, at a cost not
to exceed $146,815. (Commissioner LoCastro’s request)
Notes:
TIME CERTAIN ITEMS:
Item 11A to be head at 9:30 AM: Recommendation to approve an Economic Development Agreement with
Dialum Glass for a proposed advanced manufacturing and processing facility within the Town of Ave Maria
Innovation Zone.
Item 11B to be head at 9:45 AM: Recommendation to approve a negotiated Management Agreement with the
Pelican Bay Foundation for the management of racquet sport activities, the maintenance, and capital improvements
at Pelican Bay Community Park.
Item 9A to be head at 10:30 AM: Recommendation to consider an Ordinance establishing Collier County as a
Bill of Rights Sanctuary County.
9/5/2023 4:25 PM
August 22, 2023
Page 6
MS. PATTERSON: Item 2A is the approval of today's regular,
consent, and summary agenda as amended. Ex parte disclosure
provided by commissioner members for consent agenda.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. My understanding from
Mr. Miller is we have one public speaker for 16F8 on the consent
agenda before we approve it or don't approve it. Sir.
MR. MILLER: Your speaker is William Robbins.
Mr. Robbins, if you'll come forward.
MR. ROLLINS: Robbins or Rollins?
MR. MILLER: I'm sorry. It is Rollins. My bad.
MR. ROLLINS: I apologize for my chicken scratch.
MR. MILLER: That's okay. Right here, sir. You have three
minutes.
MR. ROLLINS: Good morning. Our firm, LSI Companies,
represents the landowners, and we've been approached by Collier
County. Some of the staff came out and looked at the property.
And I understand you guys are interested in starting negotiations.
Are we talking about Williams' Reserve property?
MS. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. That's -- 16F8 is the Williams'
property.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And you understand we
don't -- this isn't question-and-answer time?
MR. ROLLINS: I understand that. I'm just here on behalf of
the landowner if -- yeah.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: You ask.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, this is kind of
question-and-answer time. He's got an item on the agenda. It's an
item on the agenda. This is not public comment on items not on the
agenda. He's got some questions about an item on the agenda, and I
think this is appropriate to ask questions if he has any.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Go ahead, sir. The floor is yours.
August 22, 2023
Page 7
It's not an exchange unless we --
MR. ROLLINS: Okay. The only question that I have is I
understand that the County does have some interest in starting
negotiations for the purchase and acquisition of the property.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Right.
MR. ROLLINS: So I understand you also would be engaging a
group of appraisers to come out and appraise the property, at which
point they can feel free to reach out to me, and we'll accommodate in
any way.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Did you have a question or a
comment on it?
MR. ROLLINS: No, sir; no, sir.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Just confirming the process, right?
MR. ROLLINS: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: County Manager, any comment on
your part?
MS. PATTERSON: Yes, that's the intent of this item is to
begin the process to negotiate, and so we will be in contact with the
representative and, to the extent necessary, the property owners to
begin that process.
MR. ROLLINS: Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Perfect. Thank you, sir.
Okay. Having said that, we look to approve the consent
agenda.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Move to approve.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Second.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. We've got a motion from
Commissioner Hall and a second by Commissioner McDaniel. All
in favor?
COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
August 22, 2023
Page 8
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously.
Item #2B
JULY 25, 2023, BOARD MEETING MINUTES - MOTION TO
APPROVE BY COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS; SECONDED BY
COMMISSIONER HALL - APPROVED – 5/0
MS. PATTERSON: Item 2B is approval of the minutes for the
July 25th, 2023, board meeting.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Motion to approve?
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So moved, Mr. Chairman.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Second.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Second.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders made a
motion to approve. Second by Commissioner Hall. All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously.
Item #4A
August 22, 2023
Page 9
PROCLAMATION DESIGNATING SEPTEMBER 2023 AS
HUNGER ACTION MONTH IN COLLIER COUNTY. TO BE
ACCEPTED BY STUART HANIFF, CHIEF DEVELOPMENT
OFFICER, HARRY CHAPIN FOOD BANK OF SOUTHWEST
FLORIDA. - MOTION TO APPROVE BY COMMISSIONER
MCDANIEL; SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER KOWAL-
ADOPTED – 5/0
MS. PATTERSON: Item 4A is a proclamation designating
September 2023 as Hunger Action Month in Collier County, to be
accepted by Laurie Stanley, event and engagement coordinator, Harry
Chapin Food Bank of Southwest Florida. Congratulations.
MS. STANLEY: Thank you.
(Applause.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Hey. Nice branding with the hat.
MS. STANLEY: Thank you so much.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Congratulations.
MS. STANLEY: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Ma'am, if you have any comments
that you care to make on your organization, the podium's yours.
MS. STANLEY: I will, thank you. Good morning.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Good morning.
MS. STANLEY: On behalf of our board of directors and staff
of the Harry Chapin Food Bank of Southwest Florida and, most
importantly, the 250,000 children, families, seniors, and veterans we
serve every month, thank you for this acknowledgment of Hunger
Action Month.
The Harry Chapin Food Bank of Southwest Florida is the largest
hunger relief nonprofit and the only Feeding America member in
Southwest Florida servicing Collier County.
August 22, 2023
Page 10
September, Hunger Action Month, is a month-long campaign
where we go orange to raise visibility and dollars around the issue of
food insecurity. This September we ask you to join the fight to end
hunger to ensure no one ever has to make an impossible choice
between food and basic necessities.
In 2022, almost 13 million pounds of food was distributed in
Collier County. We ask Collier County and all of its citizens to
advocate, volunteer, and donate during Hunger Action Month in the
fight to end hunger.
Go orange. Because of you, someone will be able to eat today.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Before you leave,
Mr. Chairman, can I ask a question?
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yes, sir.
MS. STANLEY: Sure.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Can you kind of outline for
us the extent of the hunger problem and food insecurity problem in
Collier County?
MS. STANLEY: In Collier County -- we do serve five
counties, starting in Charlotte, Glades, Lee, Hendry, and Collier so,
specifically, post-pandemic and post-Ian, our food costs have gone up
enormously. We used to feed about 28,000 people each week.
Now we're up to 250,000 people each month in our area.
So the need is great. The costs are rising. And it doesn't -- it's
not going down anytime soon.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. When you say
"200,000," those are not 200,000 individuals. That's --
MS. STANLEY: Two hundred and fifty thousand families,
individual -- yes absolutely, in the five-county footprint.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: In the five-county. Okay.
August 22, 2023
Page 11
Do you have any idea what that number would be in Collier County?
MS. STANLEY: I do not, specifically. I'm sorry.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you.
MS. STANLEY: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am.
County Manager?
Item #7
PUBLIC COMMENTS ON GENERAL TOPICS NOT ON THE
CURRENT OR FUTURE AGENDA
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, that brings us to Item 7,
public comments on general topics not on the current or future
agenda.
MR. MILLER: We have two registered speakers at this time.
Your first speaker is Garrett F.X. Beyrent, and he will be followed by
Robert Thurston.
Mr. Thurston, you can go ahead and queue up at this podium
right here. Thank you.
Garrett, when you're ready.
MR. BEYRENT: For the record, Garret F.X. Beyrent,
Longbow Lobby.
And I want to thank Commissioner LoCastro for his shouting
out to say good things about people that actually work with him and
do things that we would never know it unless you actually said it, and
I appreciate that.
And I thought, you know, there's two new commissioners up
here, and it was the strangest thing. And we were talking about the
olden days on Radio Road -- and Bill McDaniel would remember
this -- the swamp buggy was actually there, and the old railroad
August 22, 2023
Page 12
station, that wooden piece of junk there -- was sitting there.
And long and short, I thought, you know what? When I was
stationed out in Texas a long time ago, El Paso, I would ride out in
the ranges, and it was like these gigantic trees in the middle of
everywhere. I thought, what are these cactuses doing here?
And Crystal Kinzel and I were talking. I said, you know what?
Why don't we take Radio Road in the median out there -- and that's
your idea, Commissioner Kowal. He said, you know, if you were to
take giant cactuses and plant them in medians, people wouldn't have
to spend so much money on water because you don't have to water
them, right? It would be like a desert. It would be really nice. But
run Radio Road all the way out to the interstate, and when you come
in, you have these giant, beautiful -- all kinds of succulents that
just -- that can take whatever's in the ground and grow. And that
was your idea, Commissioner Kowal.
We got it indirectly. I thought, you know, when you go
out -- and when you go way out there, out in Texas and way far out
there, like El Paso where I was, I was stationed out there, it was -- it
was something totally unique. It was, like, open space forever, and
these great, big Texas cactuses were everywhere.
So Radio Road, it's your idea. It was a great -- if you thought
about it, that's why your friends all said you're the cactus and the guy
over there is the Flamingo, remember?
Okay. Thank you very much.
MR. MILLER: Your final speaker for this item is Robert
Thurston.
MR. THURSTON: Yes. Hello. My name is Robert
Thurston, and I have a brief quote. A lie can travel halfway around
the world before the truth has got its shoes on. And a statistic: In
2023 the Pew Research Center said only two in 10 Americans say
they trust the government to do the right things always or most of the
August 22, 2023
Page 13
time. Only two in 10.
Hello. My name is Robert Thurston. I recently spoke before
the Board of Collier County Commissioners to inform the people of
Naples that they ought to know about an illegal U.S. government
program that targets often law-abiding American citizens right here
on American soil and right here in Naples as well. That presentation
on July 25, 2023, can be found online at Collier TV at minute marker
42:23.
In that July presentation, I introduced myself as a whistleblower
against government corruption and began to explain what the
Targeted Individual Program is. I talked about the federal targeted
individual court case in Houston, Texas, that impacted thousands of
Americans trapped in the Targeted Individual Program.
Today I'm providing a new link online where documents can be
found that detail and explain over 100 pages about how my
constitutional civil rights were violated here in Naples day in and day
out over a 13-year period by certain individuals who I name. These
individuals hid behind the United States Government's Targeted
Individual Program. That link address is
targetedindividual4.wordpress.com. Again, that's
targetedindividual4.wordpress.com. The four is the No. 4. It's not
spelled out.
I'm sorry this part is a bit tedious, but it's important. It's where
these documents are that describe what happened to me. I hope the
people of Naples watching at home understand that what I am
describing in the online documents can happen to anyone, including
you, even if you are not committing any crimes but because you got
on the wrong side of someone with some power, some influence,
some connections in government.
And what we're seeing here is the weaponization of government
where the law is no longer applied fairly. I hope once people in
August 22, 2023
Page 14
Naples see the gross human rights violations I explain in these
documents that many people in Naples will want some changes
made.
If I may have another minute or two.
MR. MILLER: You've got 30 seconds.
MR. THURSTON: I hope the Board of County Commissioners
will revisit the very outstanding idea of making Naples a Bill of
Rights sanctuary where the residents can be assured of fairness, due
process, and an even playing field.
Closing remarks, I'm going to wrap it up here. I had a little
more to say, but I ran out of time.
I keep coming back to, am I doing the right thing by coming
here and telling people about the Targeted Individual Program? And
I believe the answer to that is yes.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Thank you, sir.
MR. THURSTON: Okay. Thank you very much.
MR. MILLER: That was your final speaker for Item 7.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. County Manager?
Item #11C
RECOMMENDATION TO AWARD INVITATION TO BID (“ITB”)
NO. 23-8106, “SOLANA ROAD STORMWATER
IMPROVEMENTS” TO QUALITY ENTERPRISES USA, INC., IN
THE AMOUNT OF $5,258,920.70, AUTHORIZE THE
NECESSARY BUDGET AMENDMENTS, AND AUTHORIZE THE
CHAIRMAN TO SIGN THE ATTACHED AGREEMENT.
(PROJECT NO. 60102) (BETH JOHNSSEN, CAPITAL PROJECT
PLANNING, IMPACT FEES & PROGRAM MANAGEMENT
DIRECTOR) - MOTION TO APPROVE BY COMMISSIONER
August 22, 2023
Page 15
MCDANIEL; SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER HALL -
APPROVED – 5/0
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, we have about 15 minutes
until we start our time-certain items, so that -- we're going to jump to
Item 11C. This is a recommendation to award Invitation to Bid
No. 23-8106, Solana Road stormwater improvements to Quality
Enterprises USA, Inc., in the amount of $5,258,920.70, authorize the
necessary budget amendments, and authorize the Chairman to sign
the attached agreement.
Ms. Beth Johnssen, Capital Project Planning, Impact Fees, and
Program Management Director, is here to answer questions or
present.
MS. JOHNSSEN: Good morning, Commissioners. For the
record, Beth Johnssen.
As County Manager Patterson indicated, I do have a
presentation prepared, or I'm available to answer -- excuse
me -- answer any questions that you might have.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'd like to see the presentation, if
it's not too lengthy. Even if it is, I'd like to see it, so...
Is that okay with you-all?
COMMISSIONER HALL: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: All right, ma'am. It's all yours.
MS. JOHNSSEN: Okay. The project itself is located east of
Goodlette Road and will convey stormwater down the east side of
Goodlette Road through Solana Road and exit at the Gordon River
outfall at Burning Tree Drive.
So the objective -- project objective is to upsize and replace the
stormwater drainage structures that will alleviate some upstream high
water that we've experienced and to convey stormwater coming from
August 22, 2023
Page 16
the Poinciana Golf Course lakes and the Burning Tree Drive area and
the Country Club of Naples.
So with that, the recommendation is to approve the project and
award the construction to Quality Enterprises.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'll move for approval.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Second.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Second.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So I've got Commissioner
McDaniel, move for approval. I think -- I'll give Commissioner Hall
the second. All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously. Okay.
We'll keep an eye on that. Thank you.
MS. JOHNSSEN: Thank you.
Item #11D
RECOMMENDATION TO ACCEPT THE AWARD AND
AUTHORIZE CHAIRMAN TO EXECUTE GRANT AGREEMENT
NO. 23CO2 BETWEEN THE FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AND COLLIER COUNTY
FOR DUNE REPLANTING EFFORTS ASSOCIATED WITH
DAMAGES FROM HURRICANES IAN AND NICOLE IN THE
AMOUNT OF $5,000,000. (BETH JOHNSSEN, CAPITAL
PROJECT PLANNING, IMPACT FEES & PROGRAM
August 22, 2023
Page 17
MANAGEMENT DIRECTOR) - MOTION TO APPROVE BY
COMMISSIONER MCDANIEL; SECONDED BY
COMMISSIONER KOWAL- APPROVED – 5/0
MS. PATTERSON: Item 11D is a recommendation to accept the
award and authorize the Chairman to execute Grant Agreement
No. 23C02 between the Florida Department of Environmental
Protection and Collier County for dune replanting efforts associated
with damages from Hurricane Ian and Nicole in the amount of
$5 million.
Again, Ms. Beth Johnssen, Capital Project Planning, Impact
Fees, and Program Management, is here to answer questions or
present.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Let's hear what you have. I mean,
we're all very well aware of it, but maybe the public isn't; how we're
moving forward. It's a big investment.
MS. JOHNSSEN: Okay. Good morning again,
Commissioners. Beth Johnssen.
As we're all aware, the Coastal Zone Management group
recently completed an emergency berm -- excuse me -- program.
This portion of this project is to plant vegetation on that dune to
stabilize it in advance of tropical storms or future hurricanes.
So the project is to plant approximately 92 acres of vegetation
along those dunes. We've had our first stakeholder meeting. That
involved groups from Pelican Bay, the City of Naples, the City of
Marco, FGCU, and the Botanical Gardens.
So the grant itself is for $5 million. It does not require any
matching funds. We're anticipating to begin planting in May, taking
advantage of rainy season, and finish the plantings in June.
Plantings themselves will take about six months to establish.
So the plantings themselves are a mix of different types of
August 22, 2023
Page 18
vegetation. Certain types of vegetation are approved by the DEP,
and the planting mixtures do need to be approved by the DEP.
So these slides are pertaining to the dune restoration project,
which is essentially complete.
Troy, if you could just forward a couple -- through a couple
more. So the -- this is a cross-section of the dune. The plantings
will be taking place in the foredune area and on the dune crest. And
some examples of the species.
And with that, we're asking that the Board approve the -- award
of grant so that we can move forward with the project.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. I think the key here is great
work by the County getting $5 million from the State for this
restoration and rebuilding project. I think we all like hearing that
we're taking advantage of the expertise of Naples Botanical Garden.
You know, I think we all learned during Hurricane Ian that some
stuff survives saltwater just fine. Other things die instantaneously.
So it's good to hear that we're going to continue to make massive
improvements during those -- in those areas of beaches.
Gentlemen, anybody have any questions or comments?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Do I have a motion to
approve?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: So moved.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Commissioner McDaniel,
motion to approve. Do I have a second?
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Second.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Second by Commissioner Kowal.
All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye.
August 22, 2023
Page 19
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously.
MS. JOHNSSEN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am.
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, we're about eight minutes
early for our 9:30 time-certain, but they are in the room, so I would
recommend that we go ahead and go forward with that to keep this
moving along.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay.
Item #11A
RECOMMENDATION TO APPROVE AN ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT FOR A PROPOSED ADVANCED
MANUFACTURING AND PROCESSING FACILITY FOR THE
US HEADQUARTERS OF DIALUM GLASS WITHIN THE
TOWN OF AVE MARIA INNOVATION ZONE IN THE AMOUNT
OF $1,500,000. (AMY PATTERSON, COUNTY MANAGER)-
MOTION TO APPROVE BY COMMISSIONER MCDANIEL;
SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER LOCASTRO- APPROVED –
5/0
MS. PATTERSON: This is Item 11A. It's a recommendation to
approve an economic development agreement for a proposed
advanced manufacturing and processing facility for the U.S.
headquarters of Dialum Glass with the Town of Ave Maria
Innovation Zone in the amount of $1,500,000.
While I invite the Dialum representatives to come up, I just
August 22, 2023
Page 20
wanted to let you know these innovation zones are an excellent
economic development tool designed specifically to attract
businesses with high-wage jobs. This one is particularly exciting in
light of the fact it is at Ave Maria, and with the growth out in that
area, providing jobs where people aren't having to travel into the
coast and the urban area is of primary importance.
With that, I'll turn it over to the Dialum team to start, and we do
have a brief video to show you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Thank you, Ms. County Manager.
Nick Casalanguida, for the record, Commissioners. Mr.
Chairman, Commissioners, good morning.
I represent Barron Collier Companies, and I have Fernando Diez
Vidal with Dialum Glass, and he'll have a few comments. I also
have Cee Cee Marinelli.
Amy's correct, Ave Maria is welcoming about 600
homes -- families a year. It's growing rapidly, and there's a lot of
interest right now in industrial space. And we look to, you know,
have this company come forward and potentially bring more down
the road.
With that, I'll introduce Fernando and let you have him say a
few words, and then you can watch the presentation. Thank you.
MR. DIEZ: Good morning. My name is Fernando Diez. I
came from Chile, the most southern country in South America. I'm
director of Dialum company. I'm very pleased. I'm very happy to
be here. Thank you very much.
I have a little video to present myself, present our company. I
don't know if you can put it.
(A video was played as follows:)
Dialum is a company born in the City of Talcahuano, Chili, in
1987 dedicated to the distribution of glass and aluminum, mainly in
August 22, 2023
Page 21
the south zone of the industry. Twelve years later, it was installed in
the City of Santiago with new facilities to sustain the main processes
of crystal transformation.
Throughout its history Dialum has been in constant search for
innovation to offer the highest technology of glass solutions to its
clients.
Over the years, we have been making changes in different
factories. This is our fourth, and the number of people has increased
a lot. But the most surprising of all is the technology that has been
developed and what people have learned by getting on the take [sic]
wagon.
Dialum, as a company, has always been associated with the big
suppliers in technology. Our equipment is state of the art, and we
work with the best processors. We always choose the best possible
worldwide technology.
In 2001, Dialum took over the distribution of glazing crystals
from Glaverbel, currently AGC, a prestigious world-wide Belgian
company developing national projects and insulated glass unit, IGU,
and becoming the main producer of associated IGU to corporate and
office building projects.
With the operation of two productive sites in the cities of
Concepción and Santiago and after the acquisition of a new
generation tempering furnace specially designed for the heat
treatment process of Low-E high performance glass, in 2008, Dialum
obtained the certification of all processes, temperate, laminate, and
IGU, to produce the SunGuard line of the reputed world
manufacturer, Guardian Glass.
The opening of our company to the new international market
begins with great success. Dialum becomes one of the few
producers in America with an international status. Given the great
growth experienced by Dialum in 2011, it was decided to take a new
August 22, 2023
Page 22
leap and inaugurate and re-think a new layout of 215,000 square feet
of production, expanding almost three times in infrastructure. This
new layout supported the existing machinery plus two new furnaces
of tempered glass and a new line of double-glaze last generation.
Following the opening of our remodeled factory, the distribution
of special products is added to our services with the processing of
fireproof glass, bulletproof glass, anti-slip glass for interior and
exterior applications being shot in one of our main suppliers,
lacquered glass for wall and furniture coatings, mini blinds of Italian
prominence standing out inside the IGU, private glass for privacy
control, among others.
As an addition to these products' production and focused on the
forefront of glass, a new machine is acquired, allowing water-jet
cutting of glass up to 3.1 inches thick, forming shapes, making splits,
and various perforations for special products.
In 2014, a new milestone is achieved with new machinery which
makes it possible for our company to bend and temper glass, both
colorless, dyed, reflective, and soft-coat glass.
Following this, a new alliance was established with the Italian
company CASMA, strongly oriented towards the closure systems of
glass terraces.
Dialum is a company that constantly innovates, so in 2018 a new
machinery is incorporated with the possibility of processing double
glaze, laminate, tempered, and digital screen printing in monumental
format, 141 by 236 inches.
In order to host the new machinery, we decided to expand our
site again, reaching today with more than 290,000 square feet of
production.
Hand in hand with this new growth, Dialum has a new alliance
of Janssen, a Swiss company leader and the manufacturer of steel
profiling with more than 100 years of experience. It seeks to free the
August 22, 2023
Page 23
architecture of limit, managing to work with maximum transparency
and large formats in glass solutions.
Nowadays, we are in a leading position, being a pioneer in the
processing of glass in our country and one of the main southern
(unintelligible) producers of glass for high performance architecture,
which allows us to satisfy the demands of our clients in the domestic
market as well as abroad, with emphasis on Argentina, the U.S., Peru,
Paraguay, Honduras, Panama, Puerto Rico, among others.
It's also important to mention that the new staff have been able
to adapt, learn from teachers and, above all, have felt the support
from management and all other areas.
The pleasant atmosphere that surrounds a work-focused
environment is, in fact, a company of professionals. Our employees
stay with us because we take care of them and we believe in their
experience. We believe that people are a part of the company and
can develop with the company. We are a small family moving
forward, and we want our employees to grow with us.
As Dialum, we will continue to incorporate the latest
technological advances in each of our processes, adding value to the
glazing solution, permanently improving the quality of our products,
and working to deliver the best service and technical advice with
highly trained professionals who provide first-line support in the
specification of architectural projects.
All this is based on a harmonious relationship with employees
and always striving to increase the awareness of energy-saving and
self-sustainable constructions to our clients.
Dialum --
(The video concluded.)
MR. DIEZ: This is what we do. We -- just now we're the
largest glazing factory in South America, and we're excited to come
here to Collier County to continue that growth and give the county
August 22, 2023
Page 24
jobs and technology and investment in glazing things.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I've got a couple questions, and I
wanted to highlight something from the -- that's in the agreement that
I think is worth noting.
It says the first phase of your facility is approximately -- going
to be approximately 90,000 square feet --
MR. DIEZ: Yes.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- at Ave Maria?
MR. DIEZ: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And you're estimating to spend, in
the initial, you know, investment, 20 -- over -- maybe 20 million or
more in investment, which is impressive. So we're obviously
deciding here to add 1.5 to have a mutual agreement together, which I
think is a great opportunity for both of us.
One of the questions I have is, do you -- who's your customer
base here? Do you already have customers that are closer to Naples
than they are to Chile, and, you know, the day you cut the ribbon, the
glass comes off the line and goes to customers that already exist, or
you're trying to build -- it's more out of curiosity. Is your customer
base up and down, you know, the United States coast or in Florida, or
are you looking to build a new customer base?
MR. DIEZ: No. Nearly 80 percent of what we're building
right now, it's U.S. customers.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay.
MR. DIEZ: We have been over here at least 15 years, and that's
one of the main reasons that we're going to come here, to be near our
best and more clients that we have.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Do you have another facility
somewhere else in the United States, or this will be your first one?
MR. DIEZ: This is going to be the first one.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Excellent.
August 22, 2023
Page 25
Commissioner McDaniel, sir.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well, first of all, how's your
father?
MR. DIEZ: Very, very good, thanks.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Pass on my hellos.
I'm very excited about this opportunity. I'd like to make a
motion for approval and then have a brief discussion after we get to
the second, if we get one.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. I've got a motion to
approve. I'll make the motion and a second.
All in favor?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Wait a second. I'd like to
say something, if we could.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I was hoping you wouldn't. No,
I'm just kidding. Go ahead, sir.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And this is a systemic issue.
I would like for us going forward -- these innovation zones, I like.
I'm pleased that we're attracting really good companies, high-wage
earning jobs to our community. I would just like a little more
tracking with regard to the employment and revenues that are
generated by these companies that are coming forward. So I
would -- that's my ask of staff in a global manner with regard to the
innovation zones.
MS. PATTERSON: Understood.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: My add to that would just be
highlighting how amazing Ave Maria is coming together. A lot of
untapped potential there, but a lot of potential that's already been
tapped.
So this is another fantastic add. You picked a great location.
We hope it attracts other businesses and people and workers and all
those things. And so I think we're priming the pump in an area that
August 22, 2023
Page 26
has been potential for managed growth and the right type of growth
and the right type of investment, you know, for our community for
sure.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Agreed.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So I have a motion from
Commissioner McDaniel. I second the motion. All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'm sorry. Commissioner Kowal
was lit up.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I was lit up.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I missed it. Go ahead, sir.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: My question was more or less
for staff and that this particular money from this -- it comes from
is -- Commissioner McDaniel was speaking about, where does that
money come from?
MS. PATTERSON: It's generated within the Innovation Zone.
So it's an established geographic area. It's an instrument similar to a
TIF. So there's a base year set, and increases in the taxable value,
then, are retained within that zone to be used for this specific
purpose, so it's self-generating.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah. I just felt it was good to
have an explanation.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Absolutely.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Some people might not
understand how that -- we come about to get that money, so...
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Great. I've got a motion and a
second. All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye.
August 22, 2023
Page 27
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously.
Welcome to Florida.
MR. DIEZ: Thank you very much.
MR. CASALANGUIDA: Thank you, Commissioners.
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, a minor housekeeping
item. We need a motion to accept the proclamation. We were
doing so well, and then I forgot.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: So moved.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Second.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Motion to accept by Commissioner
McDaniel, a second by Commissioner Kowal. All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously.
Item #11B
RECOMMENDATION TO APPROVE A NEGOTIATED
MANAGEMENT AGREEMENT WITH THE PELICAN BAY
FOUNDATION, INC., FOR THE MANAGEMENT OF RACQUET
August 22, 2023
Page 28
SPORT ACTIVITIES, THE MAINTENANCE, AND CAPITAL
IMPROVEMENTS TO ENHANCE THE SERVICES PROVIDED
AT PELICAN BAY COMMUNITY PARK, WORTH AN
ESTIMATED $6,000,000, AND AUTHORIZE THE CHAIR TO
SIGN THE ATTACHED AGREEMENT. (DAN RODRIGUEZ,
DEPUTY COUNTY MANAGER) - MOTION TO APPROVE BY
COMMISSIONER HALL; SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER
SAUNDERS- APPROVED – 5/0
MS. PATTERSON: The next item is scheduled for 9:45. I
would -- this is the Pelican Bay item. I would suggest maybe we
start the staff presentation. We have a number of speakers on Zoom.
If we get started with the staff and Pelican Bay's presentation, then
we can move into public speakers.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'm going to take some poetic
license here as Chair. I want to sort of set the stage and maybe say a
few things, and I think my colleagues will echo what I'm going to
say. We have a lot to get to on today's agenda, a lot of totally
different topics. So a lot of people in the audience are here for one
thing. We're here for everything, and there's a lot.
So the first thing I'll say is we've got a good crowd.
Mr. Miller, do we have anybody upstairs?
MR. MILLER: I just checked that camera. We do not.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So just -- let's keep an eye
on that, and if we see somebody up there that thinks the room is full
and we have seats, they can come down here.
So my first announcement will be, please silence your cell
phones right now, okay, because we want to be respectful to people
that are speaking. And if you normally don't have your cell phone
on silent, we need it to be on silent now.
As I said, we have a lot on today's agenda. When we get to
August 22, 2023
Page 29
what you are personally here for, a reminder to be professional and
respectful in your discussion. That's the kind of meetings that we
run here. No outbursts and, God rest his soul, Jerry Springer, but
we're not The Jerry Springer Show.
So when somebody's speaking at the podium, they deserve
respect, and when you're sitting in the audience waiting your turn,
you expect the same. So that's -- that's our expectation here. You
want to be heard, so make sure that you allow others to be heard.
You get three minutes at the podium, so be mindful of the lights.
Light stays greens when you're speaking. Light turns yellow when
you have 30 seconds left. Light turns red when you have to wrap up.
Three minutes goes by very quickly, so use your time wisely. If you
start off with a story about your grandchildren and how you lived
here for 40 years and you know everything about the county, the
clock's ticking, so you might not get to your main point.
We're not here to cut anybody off, but we want to be respectful
for the other people who are waiting. So, please, I just say, be
mindful of your time, and we will be mindful of your time as well.
You can yield your time to another speaker. So if you're sitting
here right now and you filled out a piece of paper to speak for three
minutes but maybe you ran into somebody else who you think maybe
has your point packaged a little bit better; make sure, to those of you
who that maybe this is your first time here, you can give your three
minutes to somebody. And if 10 people did that to one person, that
person now has 30 minutes, you know, to speak and maybe can wrap
up the points a little bit more succinctly, possibly, but it's totally -- it's
totally your choice.
If you think you're sitting here waiting to speak for your three
minutes and the 10 people in front of you all said the exact same
thing and you don't really feel the need to be redundant, you can yield
your time back to us and say, my point's already been made five
August 22, 2023
Page 30
times over. That's totally your choice. I'm not encouraging it. I'm
not not encouraging it. I'm just letting you know that it's a
possibility if you think something's already been said.
To my fellow commissioners, it goes without saying, you know,
we want healthy discussion and debate, so let's make sure we're not
talking over each other. And I'm really proud of how we've run
meetings here, you know, in the past. We have a light system, and
I'll be, you know, on it. If you want to get into something that's
maybe a little bit out of the box or whatever, we can do that as well,
as we have from time to time.
Some citizens are not going to get the outcome that they hope
for today. But I know my colleagues and I know none of them woke
up this morning or any day deciding how we could make a bad
decision for the County. We have heard from many people
concerning pickleball and the Constitution. So it runs the gamut.
Today we will hear from many more.
We have a lot to weigh up here. You know, you might make
one very specific point, but our job up here is sometimes more
complicated than just your particular thing. We're weighing a lot up
here, and I'm really proud of how we do it.
Regardless of your own point of view -- and this is just my own
particular thing. I say it at all my town hall meetings -- I hope you
don't measure the ability or integrity of anybody in this room, either
up here or out there, by one decision that didn't go your way today.
If you feel your position is the right one, make your case. We are
listening.
So in conclusion, I'll say let's all be respectful and let's ensure a
healthy discussion. It makes our job a lot easier when both sides
make a strong case, or all sides; I'll say that.
You have your point of view, and you want to be heard and, as I
said, so does everyone else, even those who disagree with you. We
August 22, 2023
Page 31
respect all points of view in this room, and we hope after today,
regardless of the outcome, you respect ours.
Keep everything in perspective. We've got a lot of big things
on the -- on the agenda today. But you've got people in Maui that
have lost everything. You've got people in the United States that,
you know, pickleball's not in their top 1,000 of things that are an
issue. I'm not saying that the agenda today doesn't have big things
on it, but let's keep things in perspective.
And, lastly, because it sort of never happens, silence your cell
phones. We don't want to hear your Robert Palmer song or your
Rolling Stones or -- now, if it's Elvis, I do want to hear that. And
mine are silent. Yes, I know. I got it. I got it.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Just making sure.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Having said that, I think I speak on
behalf of all of us up here, we appreciate you-all being here. And
whether it's pickleball, the Bill of Rights, or a whole bunch of other
things -- some of you will exit after your one topic today. We're
going to be in here late tonight talking about all kinds of things, and
in the future.
But I thank citizens for taking the time to come today and the
hundreds of people who sent us emails on their particular topic. It
helps us formulate, you know, our decision. And, like I said,
sometimes you might not always get what you want, but the sheer
fact that I'm looking at a group of involved citizens who took the time
to come here, I really think it says a lot, and, you know, we're proud
to work for you, to serve with you, and hope that you respect the
process that happens in here today.
Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I just want to say that was
really well said, and I echo all of your comments. And I think -- I
appreciate you taking the time to make your notes and to say that
August 22, 2023
Page 32
because it really is important. Because as -- I agree with you, we're
all here to try to do the best we can for the county, for the citizens
who live here and visit here. And sometimes we will disagree, but
the one thing about this board that has made it really a pleasure to
serve on is that we are always respectful of each other, and we're
always respectful of the audience. And I think your comments were
right on point. Thank you for that.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir.
Having said that, I got us closer to 9:45.
Who doesn't have their cell phone -- somebody doesn't.
Somebody doesn't.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Come on.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. We'll see. Maybe up here.
It was me one time, so...
Okay. County Manager, let's move forward.
MS. PATTERSON: Item 11B is a recommendation to approve a
negotiated management agreement with the Pelican Bay Foundation,
Inc., for the management of racquet sport activities, the maintenance
and capital improvements, to enhance the services provided at
Pelican Bay Community Park worth an estimated $6 million, and
authorize the Chair to sign the attached agreement.
Mr. Dan Rodriguez, your Deputy County Manager, will begin
the presentation.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Good morning, Commissioners. For the
record, Dan Rodriguez, your Deputy County Manager.
This is an exciting project, over four years in the making, and
it's a great opportunity for us to partner with a community partner to
bring some needed resources to your Parks and Recreation Division
as well as to the county government.
Before I get started, I want to introduce your delivery team. It
includes Tanya Williams, your Public Service department head; Jim
August 22, 2023
Page 33
Hoppensteadt. He is your president and chief operating officer with
Pelican Bay in the back there; as well as Susan -- I'm sorry. Susan
Levine. She is with the board members of Pelican Bay Foundation;
and Josh Fruth, who's the Peninsula engineer. And I also want to
recognize Olema Edwards, your Parks and Recreation director, for all
of her work and contributions.
As you know, with every project in the county government, we
start off with the vision that mirrors the County's vision. And for the
public and those that are not familiar with it, is to be the best
community in America to live, work, and play.
This particular project focuses on the play aspect of that vision.
In addition, it's in line with the mission of the county government
which you, the Board, supported with your county manager's update
of the vision, the mission, and our guiding principles and our
priorities for this next year. That mission is to deliver high-quality
best-value public services, programs, and facilities to meet the needs
of our residents, visitors, and businesses for today and tomorrow.
The agenda you're going to see today, we're going to provide a
short background on Pelican Bay Park, as well as the site location for
the project, the current park conditions, as well as the project scope,
business case, and, of course, the most important, the contract
management and then, again, public outreach, which is critical to any
project the County gets involved in. And then, of course, the project
benefits for the public and, of course, our final recommendation.
There we go. The recommendation before you today is to
approve a negotiated management agreement with the Pelican Bay
Foundation for the management of racquet sports activities, the
maintenance, and the capital improvements to enhance the services
provided at Pelican Bay Community Park, worth an estimated
$6 million, and to authorize the Chair to sign the attached agreement.
For those that are not familiar with Pelican Bay Park, the Pelican
August 22, 2023
Page 34
Bay Planned Unit Development, the PUD, was created in 1977. It
was developed by the Westinghouse Communities of Naples, better
known as WCI. Land was deeded to Collier County in 1994 for the
sole purpose of building a 15-acre community park. Not only did
the Pelican Bay PUD require that WCI provide the land, but also they
constructed the park. So all of the amenities that you see there today
were paid for by the WCI.
And, again, here's a picture of the park as it exists today. Those
of you that are not familiar with it, it is just west of 41. What's
unique about this park, it's one of the largest green spaces west of 41,
servicing about 40,000 people within the four-mile radius.
The park is about 30 years old, Commissioners, and from the
County's perspective, Parks and Recreation and Facilities
Management, we haven't invested any new monies in the park. All
the amenities you see there existed 30 years ago, and it is in need of
repair and replacement.
The ball field, the turfs, the fencing have all weathered many
storms and many, many activities through the years. Additionally,
the tennis courts, which are made of clay, have not been rebuilt since
they were originally installed. In fact, the foundation, irrigation
system, and drainage systems associated with them are all in need of
repair. It is estimated that if the County were to take on that
endeavor, it would cost between 1.2 and $2 million just for the tennis
court replacements.
In addition, many of the facilities there need repair or
replacement. You have a couple examples there. The facilities
were built 30 years ago. We have many more residents utilizing the
facilities. There were many more requirements needed for facilities
maintenance, so storage is limited as well. The playgrounds could
use additional equipment or new equipment, as well as drainage for
those play surfaces with using advanced technologies and whatnot.
August 22, 2023
Page 35
The parking asphalt has not been sealed or milled since the
installation and has great signs of cracking and deterioration.
Additionally, parking is limited at this park due to its overwhelming
use.
The lighting systems, too, have weathered many storms and are
old and in need of upgrades. There's newer technology with LED
lighting that provides better lighting and more focused lighting and
directional lighting for no offsite lighting issues.
Of course, there are many other needs throughout the park that
the County and Parks and Recreation Division will get after, but
they're in a long line of -- a long list of other needs that they must
compete with. And as the Board is well aware, funding has been
very limited through the years, putting many capital improvements on
the back burner; through -- a reduction of preventative, predictive
maintenance and deferred maintenance, has required us to look at
new opportunities as directed by the Board and our county manager
to find new ways of funding through community partnerships.
This particular project provides that. With approval of this
project, the County would receive 20 new pickleball courts, 20
new -- I'm sorry -- two new clay courts, and replace the
existing -- and in place of the existing racquetball courts, as well as
remove six clay courts and replace them; relocate the existing
baseball and ball field practice area, providing new greens and
diamonds; build a new 6,000-square-foot building for the public that
includes restrooms, a concession, as well as other maintenance
facilities needed; build a shaded area for the waiting pickleball
players so that the court activities stay within the court area
designated; and then also inclusive surface material for the
playground so that those that are handicapped or have adaptive
disabilities can have a better playground.
Here's the conceptual footprint of the planned improvements,
August 22, 2023
Page 36
amenities, and features that will be installed. Most of the footprint
will be placed on existing facilities that are going to be replaced.
The Pelican Bay Foundation will be responsible for the project
management, including permitting and paying for all costs. They
will also be responsible for installing sound attenuation curtains,
landscaping, fencing around the courts to reduce noise that may be
coming off of the courts.
One of the top priorities for staff here in listening to the public is
to preserve the green space and, in fact, many residents around the
park, including Naples Park, insisted that any future projects preserve
the green space. As I mentioned earlier, it's one of the largest in
North Naples west of 41.
With the approval of this project about one acre would be used
for the new features of the pickleball courts. You can see in the
picture there they would be adjacent to the Vanderbilt Beach Road,
which is on the top of the presentation there on the north side of the
park.
The Pelican Bay Foundation will be responsible for all
maintenance of this racquet facility estimated at about $400,000 a
year. About 160,000 of that will be maintenance alone. Staffing
would run about 200-plus-thousand a year.
With that, Commissioners, I will now turn the presentation over
to Tanya Williams, who will cover the contract aspects of the project
as well as the public outreach and the benefit to the community.
MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Dan.
For the record, Tanya Williams, Public Services department
head, and I get to talk about the fun management part of this.
So how did we actually get here? In regards to the amenities at
Pelican Bay Community Park, when Parks and Recreation embarked
on their 2018 master plan, obviously, focus groups were part of that,
community outreach was part of that, and Pelican Bay, like most
August 22, 2023
Page 37
other communities in Collier County, turned out so that their voice
could be heard. And one of the desired -- one of the desired
amenities for the expansion of the Pelican Bay Community Park was
the request for the addition of pickleball courts and additional
parking, as Deputy County Manager Rodriguez mentioned shortly
ago.
So during the community focus groups in the development of
the 2018 master plan, not only did Pelican Bay residents come out to
voice their opinions about what they would like to see added to their
park, but they brought a petition signed as well requesting that
pickleball courts be included. That really started the idea of what
expanded amenities residents and visitors wanted to the Pelican Bay
Community Park.
And then in 2021, Parks and Recreation conducted an online
survey targeting the Pelican Bay community of which 899 -- 889
respondents answered, and 624 of those respondents actually identify
themselves as living within the 34108 ZIP Code, which is the Pelican
Bay area.
Of those 624 respondents, 56 percent of them identified
pickleball as the next top priority improvement for this park.
So that brings us to today and the contract that has been
negotiated over the past several months rather aggressively but, as
you can see, this actually started back in 2018, and Mr. Hoppensteadt
would probably argue that that conversation started a lot earlier than
2018.
So the management contract that we're bringing before you
today obviously recognizes the estimated $6 million in capital
improvements to the park, with an estimated $400,000 in annual
maintenance by the Pelican Bay Foundation for those racquet sport
activity areas; management of the racquet sport activities, in and of
itself, which would include the rental of the courts, reservation of the
August 22, 2023
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courts, instruction in either tennis or -- tennis and pickleball, and then
the hosting of tournaments and special events.
As part of the capital improvements, it does include a
6,000-square-foot building. That will obviously be used for the
selling of concessions. A pro shop will be operated out of this
building, private group lessons will be coordinated, leagues will be
coordinated, tournaments will be coordinated, and any other
business-type processes will be conducted through the addition of
this building.
Pelican Bay Foundation will be, as part of their management,
using state-of-the-art software to reserve court time and manage the
usage of the courts.
Alcohol sales, which are included in the management contract, I
do want to make it known for the record, alcohol sales will be limited
to tournaments and special events following the current Parks policy.
So the Pelican Bay Community Park, in the addition to these added
amenities, alcohol sales will follow the same regular process that
alcohol sales occur throughout all of your community parks.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Chair?
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Could you outline that
policy? Because I know a lot of speakers are going to be opposed to
the sale of alcohol. Could you outline what that procedure would be
and what we do at our other parks in terms of sale of alcohol?
Because my understanding is it will be identical to what we do in
other parks, that if someone -- that if the Pelican Bay folks want to
have the sale of alcohol for a special event, they will apply for that
permit. But could you outline that process?
MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. Thank you, Commissioner
Saunders.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: And can I just add? And this is a
August 22, 2023
Page 39
change, correct, from what we initially got sent as sort of like a
prerequisite to this meeting? It sounded like the initial request was
alcohol sales across the board, and then I think -- that must have been
the case, because then we immediately heard from people that
weren't, you know -- that were opposed to that saying that they were
opposed because it was across the board.
So between then and now, this is an adjustment, right? This is a
change from what was initially sort of shot out, correct?
MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. This is a change from the agreement
that currently was posted as part of the agenda last Wednesday. This
change has occurred within the last 24 to 48 hours.
And in answer to Commissioner Saunders' questions, Parks'
alcohol use policy is reserved for special events and tournaments.
The tournament host or the public that's holding the special event, be
it the community or Parks, submits a permit -- a permit request with
Parks and Recreation. That goes through the Parks and Recreation
Advisory Board. It also has to go through the regular permitting
process with the County. So it -- Pelican Bay Community Park, in
offering alcohol, will solely follow established processes.
Furthermore, the usage by Foundation members, we have 20
pickleball courts that are going to be constructed; 50 percent of those
will be available to Foundation members. The other 50 percent
would be for the use by the public.
In regards to the tennis courts, three courts would be reserved
for usage by Foundation members; five courts would be reserved for
usage by the public. And as part of our negotiations, at no point in
time will a court sit open.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Kind of a quick question on
the 10 courts that are available for the public, I'm assuming from
what you're saying is those courts will also be available to the
August 22, 2023
Page 40
Foundation members or no?
MS. WILLIAMS: In regards to the reservation system?
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yes.
MS. WILLIAMS: So in other words, a court will never sit
open. So if there's more need for the public and courts are open,
then they will be in a reservation queue. I'll actually let the
Foundation speak on how the management -- that specific
management piece is. But the idea is that no court will sit open.
So, obviously, during season when pickleball usage is at its height,
then the 10 courts reserved for the Foundation will be used by the
Foundation members, and then 10 courts would be reserved for the
public.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Right. But I guess my
question is, in the busy season, let's say, just hypothetically, that there
are dozens and dozens of Foundation members that want to play
pickleball and you have 20 courts out there, will there be some
mechanism to make sure that those 10 public courses are available to
the public and not completely occupied by Foundation members?
MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. That's part of the management
system.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. Is that something
that you could elaborate on, or is that just something that we need
to...
MS. WILLIAMS: I'm going to ask Jim Hoppensteadt to
actually answer that question.
MR. HOPPENSTEADT: Thank you, Commissioner Saunders.
This is not going to be a black-and-white type of situation
because in our focus groups we found that both Pelican Bay members
and the public play a lot of pickleball together. The way pickleball
works is you play a match, a game, and then you come off and
somebody else rotates in. So you play a game to 11, and you rotate
August 22, 2023
Page 41
out, and somebody else comes into the facility.
It's our commitment that in periods of 100 percent occupancy
where all the courts are occupied, that if Pelican Bay residents or
Collier County residents want to play together without having this
melting pot type of situation, they will have the ability to do so. And
in those situations, we will track exactly who's on what court, so we'll
be able to demonstrate that the public has equal access during those
periods that Pelican Bay does.
Now, equal access may actually mean that there's 10 courts for
Pelican Bay, 10 courts for the public. It also may mean that a
Pelican Bay member is playing with somebody who's not a Pelican
Bay member on a court, and so we'll have to segregate that.
It is certainly going to be our commitment to the county and the
public that the Pelican Bay community does not dominate the entire
facility.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. I think that's really
the bottom line in terms of my question is to make sure that there's a
record to reflect that there will be some ability to make sure that
county residents are able to use the courts that are designated for the
public and they're not going to be, you know, totally used by Pelican
Bay Foundation members. And I think your commitment is to make
sure that there's a fair distribution of court time to make sure county
residents have equal access.
MR. HOPPENSTEADT: Not only fair distribution of court
time, but fair distribution of courts. So our plan is to rotate the usage
of the courts so that there's not a perceived -- or there's not a
perception that the preferable courts are just Pelican Bay courts.
We've got to rotate those.
We also, just like is done down at East Naples, we need to
segregate courts by skill level. And so in order to allow members
and public to play against somebody who is competitive with them,
August 22, 2023
Page 42
those courts are going to be segregated by 3-5, 3-0, 2-0 and so you've
got this segregation of advanced, intermediate, and beginner play.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you. I don't play
pickleball, so I don't know all of those nuances. And I assume if
there's any particular problem with county residents, that they'll let
Tanya know or --
MR. HOPPENSTEADT: They'll be able to let anybody on the
County know. They'll be able to let the Foundation know.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay.
MR. HOPPENSTEADT: My director of racquets and
community center is here. He's done this before. He's very familiar
with how to orchestrate. We will have staff in the pit area, as it
were, so that when people come in and are looking for courts to sign
up on, they'll know what courts are currently designated for the
Collier County general public and then Pelican Bay.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. Thank you. I
appreciate that.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I was -- if you -- I was just going
to add, sir, if you'll just stay at the podium. We get concern from
some county folks that weren't against the project, but what
Commissioner Saunders said was their concern. And although I can
appreciate what you say, it's not always black and white, you know,
you have a Pelican Bay member playing with a county member, and
maybe some -- even people trying to game the system. Wow, you
know, I've got a -- I'm a county person, I have a partner that's a
county person, but in order to get a court immediately, if one of our
partners was a Pelican Bay person, boom, we've had priority, and we
could play on one of the 10 courts.
You know, there's -- we've got to just make sure that, I think,
that we tighten the loopholes a bit. Like, I'll just give you a scenario.
All the Foundation courts are full. All 10 courts are full. The
August 22, 2023
Page 43
county courts, out of the 10, nine are full. A Pelican Bay Foundation
person walks up and want to play, and -- you know, and if you have a
system that's sort of first come, first serve, it's like, oh, just go on the
last county court.
Thirty seconds later a county person comes and says, you
know -- I mean, there was -- and I realize, like you say, it's never
perfectly black and white. And we do this at other parks. But I will
tell you sometimes not -- not that well. I mean, we get complaints
from, you know, our East Naples Community Park at times where a
bunch of county people are saying, you know, we're locked out.
And we're learning. I don't say that to throw anybody under the
bus. But I just say that our oversight is going to be to make sure that
it isn't just a first come, first serve, and in the end, it was like, yeah,
great, the slide looked good, 10 courts for the county, 10 courts for
the Foundation.
But, you know, you have to admit, in time of season, you're
going to have a lot of Foundation people, you know, hitting those
courts at oh-dark-thirty, and the expectation here is that if county
people show up, you know, they're not locked out because they
showed up 30 seconds late.
So, you know, I guess we'll be looking for you to find that
balance. And, you know, maybe it's not black and white, but it's got
to be a little bit, you know, tight, I think. And I believe we're all in
agreement, because we're going to hear right away if it's not.
And our intention is fairness, equal access, not a first come, first
served thing or not people sort of gaming the system where all 20
courts are full first thing because each team has one Foundation
member in it, so that's how they got to get priority for the court, you
know what I mean? You know the way people can game it, and we
just want to make sure there's fairness and balance and a cohesive,
you know, process.
August 22, 2023
Page 44
So the people in the audience and people that are watching and
have sent us a lot of emails, you know, rest assured if you think that
it's not being run to the best of the ability of the people that are
overseeing it, we want to hear about it because our intention isn't to,
you know, give you keys to the City and say, hey, do the best you
can. It's you know, not black and white, but, you know, it can't be
any better. I think, you know, we want to make sure it's as tight as it
can be. So you'll be hearing from us if we're hearing from citizens,
especially county residents for sure.
MR. HOPPENSTEADT: And, look, the advantage here is that
pickleball is not an hour-and-a-half sport. It's a 10- to 15-minute
sport. And so that's why the importance of the ambassador in the
facility, to be able to cycle people on and off and say, okay, well, all
the courts are full. The next group that's going on is going to be a
county group. The next court that's going -- you know, the next
group that's going to go on is going to be a Pelican Bay group.
Again, all the feedback we've gotten from the focus group that
we've done has been, look, we play together all the time.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Right.
MR. HOPPENSTEADT: There's very little designation
between who's who and, yet, we'll -- as we -- you'll see a diagram.
We've fenced the entire area in. So our intention is to scan
everybody. Everybody's either going to be a guest, a county season
pass holder, or a Pelican Bay resident. And so you'll be identified as
you come through the facility.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay.
MR. HOPPENSTEADT: And Commissioner Hall's there quite
a bit, so he'll help us monitor it.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: He's county, just so you know.
Make sure, you know --
MR. HOPPENSTEADT: Well, we've adopted him.
August 22, 2023
Page 45
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal has got a
comment. Sir.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah. I just -- from what I
understand, we have to understand this is not a stagnant world out
there with, you know, with pickleball. I mean, you know, the people
come and go throughout the day. And, from what I understand, if
the system works correctly and the way he's stating, that there can be
times that games are going on on all 20 courts, and they may all be
county residents versus, you know, Foundation residents just by the
way of how people have reserved the courts ahead of time and the
way they fall in and how they're assigned throughout the day.
So I don't know that it's -- you know, I think the system is
probably the best way to game it from the way they're approaching it.
You know, throughout the day you don't know what -- you know,
how many courts are actually being used by who, but at least they're
being used by somebody, and I think that's where we're going with
this.
And I think we can always adjust it on the fly because, you
know, we're a fluid, you know, operation and, you know, try to make
it the best we can.
But I think that's -- you know, there's going to be times that you
may have all Foundation, you may have all county people using the
courts for increments of the day. So, you know, from what I
understand, it's probably the way it will work. So thank you.
MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
To quickly move along, any future adjustments -- the other thing
that came to light was in regards to part of the exhibit. You see fees
associated with the racquet sports. Please note this is also a change
then -- from the information that you were originally provided in
your agenda packets. The fee structure will mirror exactly your
current Parks and Recreation fee structure. Pelican Bay Foundation,
August 22, 2023
Page 46
in their management of the racquet sports, will follow Collier County
Parks and Recreation fee policy, and any updates will follow the
normal fee policy process whereby it will be brought before you, the
Board, for your approval.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Is that a change? Because there
were citizens that --
MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: -- that encountered us quickly
saying, oh, my god, the fees are exorbitant and that sort of thing.
Okay.
MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. That was a change from what was
in your agenda packet.
It's an initial 30-year contract with an option to renew for an
additional 15 years with Board approval, and either party may
terminate the contract for convenience with 30 days' notice.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall's got a
question for you.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Ms. Williams, just for the public's
knowledge, can you explain briefly why it's a county park and why
we have to pay fees and what -- because there's probably people that
are wondering that.
MS. WILLIAMS: This is a managed sport. Your Parks and
Recreation team actually has multiple contracts across all of our
complexes. Whether it be pickleball, tennis instruction, soccer
instruction, basketball, most of your league play is done through
outside contractors. It's not done by your Parks staff. So this
is -- this is just a typical management contract that is routine for your
Parks division.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Thanks.
MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
So in regards to community outreach, as Mr. Hoppensteadt
August 22, 2023
Page 47
alluded to obviously the Pelican Bay Foundation Board voted 7-0 in
support of a capital improvement at Pelican Bay Community Park,
and multiple focus groups, as well as the NIMs, were held. You had
four community outreach meetings and eight specific focus groups
occurring between April and June of this year.
A NIMs was conducted at North Collier Regional Park on the
evening of May 10th. We had over 100 people in attendance in the
room both for and against, and I think we swayed our tennis players
and told them that they would actually get improved clay courts
through all of this, so that was a big win for everyone.
And then that brings us here today. PARAB has looked at this.
Your Parks and Rec Advisory Board has looked at this item on three
separate occasions, and they did -- I will state for the record, it is up
on the screen, that at the last meeting of PARAB, which was last
Wednesday, they did have a 3-2 vote with one abstention,
recommending that the Board postpone this with the concern of
alcohol sales, which I think we have resolved that here this morning.
So, very quickly, benefits to the public: We're going to expand
the existing parking; you're going to demolish the existing concrete
racquetball and handball, and that will accommodate the two new
TRU clay courts; you're going to construct -- sorry. You're going to
also refurbish the six existing play courts; the baseball and softball
backstop will just be relocated to accommodate the expanded
construction of the pickleball courts; pro shop will be established in
the 6,000-square-foot building; and we're going to get additional
parking spaces.
So with that, Parks and Recreation staff, County staff
recommend that you approve the negotiated management agreement
as it's been slightly modified with the Pelican Bay Foundation,
Incorporated, for the management of racquet sport activities, the
maintenance and capital improvements to enhance the services
August 22, 2023
Page 48
provided at Pelican Bay Community Park, work with an estimated
$6 million, and authorize the Chairman to sign the adjusted
management agreement to note that alcohol sales with follow County
Parks' policy, as well as the fee policy will also follow current Parks
and Recreation fee policy.
And with that, I'll hand it back over to Deputy County Manager
Rodriguez for any closing remarks.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I've got a quick question for
Mr. Rodriguez, and then I have two commissioners lit up.
I think it's important to explain where the $6 million comes
from. Because we were just sitting here two weeks ago and we had
a big unfunded list for library books and keeping lights on and
whatnot, and I think it's important to separate rumor from fact that
this -- this isn't that money.
So if you would explain for -- because we did get a few folks
that maybe don't have as much of an understanding of Pelican Bay is
a very unique community.
Can you give us a short version of that 6 million isn't being
taken from libraries or from our general county fund, and explain to
us. We know the answer to this question, but if you could give us
the short version of where this money comes from.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely, Chairman. Great question.
Actually, because of the chief operating officer behind me, it's
coming from the Pelican Bay Foundation, so they are contributing
their $6 million to build this public facility.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So much like Hideaway Beach,
and there's a few other unique places, they basically tax themselves,
they have a fund, and they decide to spend the money how they
choose, correct? They're not -- we're not handing them a $6,000
[sic] check written by Collier County to do this, correct?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: No, we're not. And the way that the
August 22, 2023
Page 49
contract's written is the assets, once they're built, become the property
of the County.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Right.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Okay. Absolutely.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Commissioner Saunders
and then Commissioner Hall.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Just a couple questions and a
couple points.
Tanya Williams talked a little bit about the fee schedule. I just
want to clarify that there are certain fees that are established at our
parks for pickleball and other activities, and this new park will have
those same fees. There's no increase. Because originally there was
a fee schedule that increased that. So if there are speakers that are
concerned about the fees, that's resolved. If there are speakers
concerned about the alcohol, that's resolved.
There's one other question that, I think, needs some further
discussion, and that is the problem with -- or the belief that there will
be a problem with noise from some folks. And so we've got a nice
diagram of where the pickleball courts are or where the road system
is and where the nearest neighbors are. So if you could put that chart
back up that shows the pickleball courts, and let's talk a little bit
about distances and what's going to be done to tamp down any noise
that might come from this operation, because I believe that that
probably is the number-one concern, at least that's the number-one
concern that I've heard, that folks are concerned about noise.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely. And both the Parks and
Recreation division and Pelican Bay have a lot of experience in
managing pickleball courts and the noise that comes from them.
In this particular project, you can see the proximity there to the
roadway, as you stated. The nearest -- where we've gotten a few
complaints is from Avalon, which is due south there, which is about
August 22, 2023
Page 50
360 feet away. The plan is to put a 12-foot fence with sound
attenuation curtains on that fence on which -- so that we could ensure
that we don't have any sound bouncing off of those where we can.
And, in fact, that's a great opportunity, because even at our East
Naples Community Park, which has many more courts, a lot more
activity, we don't have those curtains there. And it's very rare that
we get complaints on sound at that park, and it's very close to a
development as well.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. So just looking at
this, in Pelican Bay, the nearest residence -- I'm not sure what
direction that is, if that's --
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Due south.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Due south, okay. And so
there are -- from the aerial, it looks as though there's a fairly
substantial vegetation between the open space and those residences.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely. Those are 30-year-old trees
that have been there since the park's development, and they're adult,
full-size, so they provide -- they also provide additional sound
attenuation just because of their size and coverage.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. Is there any
additional landscaping that would be helpful, or is that --
MR. RODRIGUEZ: There are planned landscaping around the
entire court system and fencing. So you'll have -- depending on
what the code requirements are, for aesthetics, whether it's cocoplums
or others, so...
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: And none of these courts
will be lighted; is that correct?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: That's correct. They are putting in
infrastructure for future, but at this stage of the project there will not
be any lighting.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. So if the
August 22, 2023
Page 51
infrastructure is being put in for future lighting, is that something that
has to come back to the Commission for approval? So we're not
approving --
MR. RODRIGUEZ: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- some down-the-road
lighting, okay. Because that was another major concern was
nighttime play, which would be disruptive, I think, or potentially
disruptive.
So in your view, then, the sound from these courts will be
attenuated and should not be a problem, based on your experience
with all of our other courts and how they've operated?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely, Commissioner. We believe
that, based on our experience at Veterans Park, East Naples
Community Park, that the sound will not be an issue. In addition,
there's -- there's new technology coming out relating to paddles that
was brought to my attention by Commissioner Kowal that actually
lessens the noise of pickleball, so we'll see.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: It doesn't stop the screaming
from...
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, it sounds like -- and
you said it's about 360 feet from the nearest pickleball court to the --
MR. RODRIGUEZ: To the lawn just south of there, yes.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall.
COMMISSIONER HALL: So I've been involved in this
planning process and the constituent feedback for -- ever since I've
been here, since November. And some of the comments and
concerns were lack of parking. And the parking is going to be
approved just like the County requires any project to be counted, by
their SDP. So there's not going to be -- like, we're not allowing a
August 22, 2023
Page 52
project to come along that's going to have less than adequate parking.
The other concerns were the sound, and I wouldn't commit one
way or another without the sound study that was done by a
more-than-reputable firm, and the sound -- with the sound mitigation
that we have, the actual sound back to Avalon is less than a human
voice. So that's -- when I found that out, I was really pleased with
that, because nobody wants to -- you know, I can't imagine being a
cashier in a grocery store. I'd go home, ping, ping. So that would
be my thoughts if I was listening to that noise all day.
The other concerns that I've heard was reducing the green space,
and I think the design has done an amazing -- an amazing job with
keeping the green space for the County, for the residents. I see this
as a win-win for everybody. I'm looking forward to hearing the
public comments. But as far as what I've seen so far, I'm pleased.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal and then
Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah. I just wanted to touch on
that, because I did speak to Dan yesterday, and, you know -- and I
give the credit to my in-laws, actually, because where they live, they
live in a community where the pickleball courts are right up against
the homes. I mean, literally just on the other side of the fencing.
And the particular community, they don't allow the typical
pickleball paddle. And I researched it. And, I mean, there's 50
pages on quiet technology pickleball paddles, and there's just tons of
information on it where they have different cores and things like that,
and it does cut down on the sound.
And if it is something in the future or if we -- or we get to a
point where, you know, maybe this is a little bit more than what we
thought or maybe, for whatever reason, maybe at a certain hour that
they can only use a certain noise-restricted paddle, you know, I think
to have provisions moving in the future just to maybe protect that.
August 22, 2023
Page 53
And, you know, and I -- their pickleball courts are full just like
anybody else's, even though they're using the quiet paddles -- you
know, the quieter paddles with the different coring in them and stuff
like that. So that could be an option moving forward, especially in
the evening hours, that, you know, it's a restricted time thing or
something like that.
But there's plenty of companies out there that realize the issue,
and they're all over it. I mean, there was 40 different paddle
companies right now that create a quiet paddle. So it's not like it
wouldn't [sic] be hard to obtain them in the pro shop. So I just
wanted to put that out.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Just a quick question on the
expansion of the multiuse fields. The boundaries of those go
underneath those 30-year-old trees south towards Avalon. Are those
trees going to be removed?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: No, the trees will remain.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I just had one comment on the
lighting infrastructure, and we caution nonprofits. In fact,
Mr. Rodriguez and I just had this conversation, in September we're
going to be talking about TDC money and giving different money to
different organizations, and one of the things we caution, is, you
know, the money you get from the TDC is -- if you don't get it, it
can't implode your entire organization. And so don't -- the lesson
here is don't reach too far forward.
Commissioner Saunders brought up a good point. Anything
with lighting is something that's going to have to come back to us. I
don't know how I'd feel about lighting or not. I'd have to hear from
Commissioner Hall; it's in his district. I'd have to hear from citizens.
But I can tell you, it won't -- it won't further your cause saying, well,
August 22, 2023
Page 54
we already expended, you know, $50,000 on outlets and lighting and
everything in the expectation that lighting was going to be
automatically approved.
So I just caution you that, you know, it's one thing if you're, you
know, setting certain areas that eventually could house electrical
boxes or whatever. But, you know, I wouldn't lean too far forward.
That's a totally separate issue that we will talk on. There will be
various, you know, opinions back and forth, and we're not addressing
that now, so --
And like I said, it won't accelerate a positive outcome just
because, you know, you leaned too far forward and maybe expended
cash to, you know, set up preliminary type of, you know,
construction type of things in the expectation that lighting was an
automatic. But I just say that as a statement, so...
What else? I don't have any other commissioners lit up here.
Is there anything else to add, or we go to other comments?
Mr. Miller, when it comes to public comment, just give us an
idea of what you've got.
MR. MILLER: Thirty-three.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Does your side have
anything else to add? I mean, we could always bring you back for
questions or whatnot, but I think if we -- is it, County Manager,
appropriate now to go to the public comment?
MS. PATTERSON: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I mean, I know we're sitting here at
a break, so maybe we take it instead of diving into the 33 comments.
MS. PATTERSON: If you want to take the break now, and
then we can go to public comments.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. So let's take a break now,
and we'll come back here at -- how about 10 -- I'm going to give a
little longer because there's a lot of people here, and there's not a lot
August 22, 2023
Page 55
of bathrooms. So let's come back here at 10:45. I know that seems
a little excessive, but when you're waiting in line for bathrooms and
whatnot, you're going to be thankful for it. So 10:45.
(A brief recess was had from 10:26 a.m. to 10:45 a.m.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. If everybody could take
their seats, we'll get started on time, please. Thank you.
Mr. Miller, how many speakers do we have now for pickleball?
MR. MILLER: Still 33, sir.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So just wanted to -- if
you've signed up to be a speaker, there's a couple things we covered
when it comes to Pelican Bay pickleball that have changed, so you
might have come in in the morning and you're upset with an alcohol
issue or parking or noise. So if you've heard something that now
corrects the record and makes you feel better and you don't need to
speak at the podium, then just wave us off.
We're not pushing that; we're not not pushing it. Just, you
know, confirming that if you heard something that makes you less
unhappy or it solved the problem and you don't need to speak, that
would save us time. But you clearly have your three minutes
regardless.
So let's go ahead and start with our first speaker, sir. Let's
queue them up at both --
MR. MILLER: We will.
As always, we'll do all of our speakers in the room before we go
to Zoom. And, again, I'm going to ask -- I'll call two at a time.
Please queue up to both podiums. Forgive me for the handwriting
on this, challenge here, Mary Beth, is it, Lumenik?
MS. HUMENIK: Humenik.
MR. MILLER: Humenik, thank you -- will be followed by
Bruce Korda. Please begin by stating your name.
MS. HUMENIK: Thank you. My name is Mary Beth
August 22, 2023
Page 56
Humenik. Thank you, Chairman and Commissioners.
I'm opposed to the current management agreement. My
feelings: Where does it all end? Because I don't think it ends here.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Ma'am, can you pull the
microphone down just a little bit.
MR. MILLER: I adjusted it.
MS. HUMENIK: Absolutely. Good enough?
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yes, ma'am.
MS. HUMENIK: Thank you.
It began with a desire to site six pickleball courts. Six have
been increased to 20. What is to stop the second row from
expanding to 28 or the third row from being developed to house 36
courts, thus eliminating the baseball diamond?
The operations building was increased in size to 6,000 square
feet, rotated 90 degrees, and now a shaded staging area has been
introduced to allow prayers and spectators to mingle and linger,
creating a social platform that will increase noise, commotion, and
liability.
We were promised that no additional lighting would be included
in the pickleball area and, yet, the management agreement that we
recognize is a lease calls for all the foundation work that would
support future lighting to be in place. And I very much appreciate
that if this does go through, assurances have been made here today
that it will have to go through the Commission.
The current plan for 105 parking spaces is already inadequate.
What about the increased parking and traffic that will be generated by
an influx of lingering groups and now special event attendees?
At the last Pelican Bay Foundation meeting, the president
admitted that there were concerns about traffic and parking. It
seems clear that the ever-expanding plan can only exacerbate these
issues. How long before a multilevel parking structure replaces the
August 22, 2023
Page 57
current plan?
What has always been a family-friendly community park with
an expanse of coveted green space, as we heard today, the largest
green space in the area, now appears to be shifting focus to favor a
professionally managed racquet sport and social recreational center.
Further -- and it doesn't take much imagination to conclude that
this agreement lays the groundwork for the park and, in particular,
the pickleball area to be rented out for private engagements, thus
increasing the objections that I've already mentioned. It doesn't
seem to have an end.
In closing, I'd like to remind the commissioners of their value
statements: Leadership, ethics, accountability, dedication, and
service. I urge and challenge you to recognize that that agreement
lease is not in keeping with the principles that you were committed to
follow and the community that you were elected to serve.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Our next speaker is Bruce Korda. He'll be
followed by Bill Sanchez.
MR. KORDA: Good morning. And I'm a full-time resident of
Avalon, and I'm an owner near the Pelican Bay Park.
I oppose the bilateral agreement being proposed.
I want to bring your attention to the Pelican Bay Foundation
pickleball sound assessment report that has already been referenced.
Its author, Mr. Robert Unetich, is an avid pickleball player who has
established himself as a nationally recognized expert on pickleball
noise.
Let me offer this role reversal thought. Imagine, the
County -- that you, the County Commissioners, hired Mr. Unetich as
a consultant to evaluate the Pelican Bay Park proposal and his own
noise study. Based upon open-source interviews and writings by the
author, here is what Mr. Unetich might be expected to say. Do not
August 22, 2023
Page 58
establish pickleball in residential areas. If you do, you're asking for
trouble and for endless lawsuits in the future. If establishing courts
in proximity to residential property, do so at a minimum of 500 feet
from residences. Notice that in Pelican Bay -- in Pelican Bay Park,
it's 200 feet to the north and 360 feet to the south.
Mr. Unetich is on record as saying that the goal of noise
reduction efforts should be to keep noise levels below 50 decibels to
residences. The study itself estimates that the theoretical
calculations to the north are 57.8 and to the south average at 53.
To quote Mr. Unetich in his interview with NPR, people can't
take the pop, pop, pop of pickleball noise 12 hours a day every day
and remain sane.
The study's sound calculations are measured at ground level.
Note that units to the south are two and three stories, 2- to 300 feet
tall, and these -- levels of noise at those levels are not calculated.
Elementary physics would show that the noise is going to bounce
over the -- over the walls to those units. The noise recommended
sound study measures are nowhere in concrete in the lease
agreement.
Last-minute change by the Foundation that reorients the party
building, now 600 feet, negates the complete study because it's no
longer in accordance with what the study says, quote-unquote, that
building partially blocks the sound path towards the south from the
12 western courts. This change alone makes the noise study invalid
and not worth the paper it's printed on.
Thank you for your time. I urge you to vote against the plan.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Bill Sanchez. He'll be
followed by Michael Freed.
All right. Is Mr. Sanchez not here?
(No response.)
MR. MILLER: Michael Freed, is that you, sir?
August 22, 2023
Page 59
MR. FREED: Yes.
MR. MILLER: Please come on up.
Michael will be followed by Marta Meda.
MR. FREED: Good morning. Thank you for having me
today.
I live on Pelican Bay Park. Some of you may have gotten an
email from me recently. I have three grandchildren that live in
Naples Park, so I live under that tree line that you were just talking
about earlier.
We've all been -- I've been working on this for Avalon for the
last six months trying to process all of this information. But, quite
honesty, most of this information has come in in the last 10 days, and
we're hearing even more things today. So I apologize, it's a little
difficult to process all this.
But through that time, I've kind of said to myself, you know,
why does the County really want to do this? And, you know,
what -- what really is in this for the County? And I could only really
come to one conclusion. You want a divorce.
You see, tomorrow I'll be married 43 years, so I'm not familiar
with divorce, so -- but maybe some of you are. But as I look at this,
let me explain. My professional background is as a CPA, but most
of my life was spent as a CFO of a $6 billion healthcare system of
Michigan.
I think I know a lease when I see one. This is a lease. This
isn't a management agreement. I'm not even sure why we're calling
it that. Why is it a lease? Because it provides a right of use to
Pelican Bay, an exclusive right of use for 30 years. So you're
granting them that.
And Pelican Bay, how is Pelican Bay paying for this? They're
paying for it out of something called a capital fund. For those of you
who don't have the time to think about that, think of it as like a real
August 22, 2023
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estate investment trust housed inside of Pelican Bay meant for the
development of existing assets.
So I say to myself, why does the County need a Pelican Bay to
help them finance some park improvements of 6 million which,
because God has a sense of humor, tomorrow I have to -- my wife
and I started a foundation in our hometown in rural New England,
and one of the grants we have to approve tomorrow is two pickleball
courts. So I can tell you, they're $31,000 apiece for a pickleball
court. That's what we're going to be -- that's what we're going to be
signing off on. But, you know, the 6 million, let's face it, is more for
Pelican Bay and what other things want to be developed there.
So why do you need the 6 million? And I didn't -- I
guess -- again, as I learn more about you, $4.8 million -- $4.8 billion
of assets in the county, $3.6 billion of equity, $683 million of cash
that this has -- this county has. You have something called a
debt-to-capitalization ratio of 20 percent. To the people in the
community who don't know what that means, that means for all that
you have in Pelican Bay, you've put a down payment of 80 percent,
and you borrowed 20 percent. So that's very different than what
others have elsewhere.
You don't need Pelican Bay to do this project. Pelican Bay is
1 percent of the size of the county. So that's really the heart of the
issue for me. Is this really just that you don't want Pelican Bay Park
anymore? Because of the right of refusal that Pelican Bay has, is it
just not in your plans? And if that's the case, I think we know that
because, otherwise, the recommendations coming from management
here -- and I'm sure you have good management -- don't line up with
the intentions that you have.
I would urge you to either say this is something that you don't
really want and it just doesn't fit with your game plan going forward,
or have management come back with a slightly different plan that
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kind of explains how you're going to solve some of the problems that
people have raised here today.
Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Marta Meda. She'll be
followed by James Egan.
Marta, I hope I'm saying your last name right.
MS. MEDA: Yes, yes, thanks.
I'm here to let you know that the new parking plan is grossly
inadequate for the new construction plans proposed. Those 20 new
pickleball courts will cause the biggest parking debacle without
exaggeration. All you have to do is look into the math to see the
problem. Twenty pickleball courts translates to 160 players.
Currently, we have 60 parking spaces, and they will be proposing to
add 40, for a total of 100 future available parking spaces.
Okay. So we have 100 spaces to work with. Twenty
pickleball courts translates to 160 players that need parking at the
same time. You have four players on each of 20 courts. That's 80
players on courts. With 80 players checking in, waiting on deck,
waiting to play, that's 160 players right there.
With 8 tennis courts that also will be playing all at the same
time. That translates to 64 players needing parking at the same time.
Four players, eight courts, 32 players on courts, and 32 players
checking in waiting on deck.
Then you add approximately maybe 20 players for soccer fields
and 20 people playing basketball, volleyball at the playground, dog
walkers. That's a total of 268 parking spaces needed during high-use
times. You're giving us 100 future available parking spaces. We
need 264 to be fair. You have to start these games on time. There's
no ifs, ands, or buts about that.
The additional new parking won't even come close to
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accommodating what's needed if these courts are built. No one
wants to talk about this because it can't be adequately addressed.
The only way to alleviate the parking issue is to remove more
amenities or take away more green space or both.
It's not complicated to see a huge issue here. It can't go
unaddressed. This proposal can't accommodate parking for all of the
amenities at this park at the same time.
Thank you very much. Please consider this. This is a big deal.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is James Egan. He'll be
followed by Karen Poppa [sic].
MR. EGAN: Good morning, Commissioners. For the record,
my name is James Egan. I'm going to go a little bit off script for a
minute just to respond to what was said.
There are multiple options for people from Pelican Bay to go to
the park, ride a bike, walk, park by the community center. So I don't
see the parking issue being as broad as the woman just exposed.
I've been a resident of Collier County since 1999. I started
playing pickleball at Veterans Community Park about eight years ago
because of the many health benefits it offers and the welcoming,
friendly, diverse social aspects of the pickleball community.
Back then, I had easy access to courts. Dial forward to 2023,
court availability is difficult to come by. As you know, in the last
eight years, there's been an exponential growth in the number of
people playing pickleball. People of all ages and abilities have come
to become avid pickleball players.
On a good day in season, there's a 30- to 40-minute wait
between games at Veterans Community Park for the game that takes
typically 10 to 12 minutes to play. Clearly, North Naples is
significantly underserved when it comes to pickleball courts.
The proposal for Pelican Bay Community Park addresses in a
responsible and capital-efficient way this misalignment of
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ever-increasing demand for pickleball and the number of available
courts in North Naples. It also provides a major much-needed
upgrade to the tennis courts and provides other enhancements to the
park.
It is always the case, when change is proposed, there are groups
on both sides of the fence. From my attendance and active
participation in Pelican Bay and Collier County Parks and Recreation
Division town hall meetings and personally reaching out to speak to
others in the North Naples community, there is overwhelming
support in favor of this proposal before you today. In my opinion,
the limited number of residents who take issue with various parts of
the proposal have a narrow, somewhat misinformed view of the
proposal rather than consider what is best for the over, what I heard
this morning, 40,000 residents in North Naples.
The way I see it, the pluses far outweigh the potential negatives,
particularly when the significant efforts are planned as part of the
proposal to meaningfully mitigate the potential negatives. This
project has been in the works for a long time. It's been thoroughly
vetted through an open, transparent process. Concerns have been
heard, considered, and modifications have been made.
I unequivocally support this proposal. I urge you to vote today
to approve the proposed management agreement. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker Karen Poppa. She'll be
followed by Beth Schultz.
MS. ROPPA: First of all, my name is Karen Roppa, and I
thank you --
MR. MILLER: My apologies.
MS. ROPPA: -- all so very much.
So many things have gone through my head as I have come
here. I am totally in support of this proposal, from the prayer that
was -- this morning that was said to we'll listen to all of you to
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listening to Pelican Bay and all the homework they have done, the
facts and the truth were there.
I am a professional in terms of 35 years of teaching health and
physical education. I'm a pickleball player. I'm an outdoor person.
I grew up in the park. And the park allowed me to see over the years
of life what a park can do.
Pelican Bay and the park district are renewing life in the park. I
live at the Breakwater. I love the joy of hearing the noise. I have
watched the green space stay empty. I want to see life come back to
that park. We, as Pelican Bay, I see people -- I see pickleball
growing.
I lived in Illinois. I was in a neighborhood surrounded by
homes. We played 35, 50 people a morning. Not one person came
out and said, I hear a ping, ping, ping, ping. You hear the noise if
you want to hear the noise. You speak noise if you want to make
noise.
The way I look at it is that the pill we have that we need is
activity. The children that are coming out today need that
playground renewed. Our surrounding area has noise all around us,
but the noise we're making is positive.
And I thank you all very much, please, if you will, listen to the
people that need to stay active.
And I kind of had written this down. This probably makes zero
sense to people. But the point I'm making is if we never try, we'll
never know. Let's try. Let's know. Thank you so much.
MR. MILLER: Our next speaker Beth Schultz. She'll be
followed by Tom Kelly.
MS. SCHULTZ: Hi. My name is Beth Schultz. I have called
Naples home for 25 years. I've lived in Pelican Bay for 24 of those
years. My children grew up in the public school system where I
spent a lot of time volunteering for Drug Free Collier and advocating
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for prevention.
The title of my talk today was going to be from pickleball to
alcohol. And I just want to say thank you. My county government
worked for me today, and I say thank you.
When -- this plan has ever-changed, and a lot of changes
occurred over the summer that none of us knew about. And when
the provision of alcohol was introduced, it jumped off the page at me,
I can tell you, because I'm a prevention person, having spent all this
time in the public school with my kids trying to kept it out of our
town.
After pleading with my Pelican Bay board to remove this option,
they voted unanimously to keep this provision in, so I called my
county government. I got involved. I ordered public records. And
I want to say, personally, thank you to Amy Patterson for taking the
time to meet with me. She heard me. She listened, and I say thank
you.
And I also want to thank -- and I went to the advisory board,
PARAB. I want to thank personally Kristina Heuser -- Heuser. I
said that right, I made sure. On Chips Ahoy Cookie, I call her, so I'd
remember. Heuser. She made the motion for my district to stand
up because she knew this alcohol provision was introduced all of a
sudden, and I thank her. So I'm standing here today saying thank
you because my county government worked for me.
And, you know, it was just a few months ago that we voted to
add board -- add beds to the David Lawrence Center here because we
have alcohol and substance abuse in our county. We should be
looking at prevention. We should be looking at our parks as a means
to say to our kids, we can have fun without the introduction of
alcohol. And maybe we need to look further into this when we're
even giving special permits.
Our community park is a little one. It's not the big sports
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complex. It's not even the East Naples Community Park where we
have tons going on. This is a small community park, and we have to
be very cautious even about what we allow for the parties and the
special permits moving forward.
But thank you, and thank you again for my government.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker Tom Kelly. He'll be
followed by Miguel Lopez.
MR. KELLY: Oh, good morning. I'm Tom Kelly, full-time
resident, lifetime tennis player.
We have an opportunity to improve our community for
residents, prospective new residents, visitors, and people of all ages
with the passage of the upgraded Pelican Bay Community Park.
Over the past year, the Naples One, a high-end community plan
at the west end of Vanderbilt Beach Road, was passed by the county,
and that decision closed a food market, snack bar, and DaRuMa
Japanese restaurant, all at that west end of Vanderbilt Beach Road, to
the public.
Let's hope the commissioners will approve the Pelican Bay
Community Park plans we've heard about this morning just up the
street on Vanderbilt Beach Road knowing all the upgraded amenities
will be available to all the public.
I believe the park could also have a positive halo effect on the
Pavilion, Mercato, and Pelican Bay Marketplace.
FYI, Pelican Bay tennis -- we have 18 tennis courts, but for the
past many years we have been renting courts from the park in season,
demonstrating an already working partnership that has been in place
for years. With growing pickleball popularity across the United
States, sound mitigation will continue to get better, especially with
racquets and balls, as we've heard earlier today.
The plan we are -- in this plan we are replacing, right here -- that
area that I'm pointing out was a hitting wall that had cement on it and
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ended up being makeshift pickleball and has been being played,
pickleball. That is very close to Avalon. We're, in fact, replacing
with a tennis court and, therefore, helping with the sound mitigation.
Last, in 2015 -- I live in a high-rise apartment -- we basically put
in a pickleball court. We have never had one single complaint, and
as the president, they've now come to me and said, we'd like to add in
another pickleball court so we can have parties in that. So all of
these things, I think, are going to help noise reduction.
I recommend you-all approve this plan which will be open to all
the public. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Miguel Lopez. He will
be followed by Trent Waterhouse.
MR. LOPEZ: Hello. My name is Miguel Lopez. I'm a
Naples Park resident. My brother and my sister play pickleball. I
won't talk to them anymore. I'm just kidding.
I love pickleball. I love sports. Everything is okay, but it just
doesn't fit in this field. The courts don't fit. You're moving
everything up. You now have softball hitting further to the right.
As soon as you hit any fly balls, you're going to land on top of the
pickleball courts. It's just plain. I've seen people hit the ball all the
way to the other side of the field, and they come once in a while to
play.
We play soccer there on Sundays, and we move ourselves
around, and we can play right now with them. If you add these
courts, forget softball and soccer. They can't play at the same time.
Softball will not be able to play because they're going to hit right into
the pickleball courts.
This is a multipurpose field. You can play two or three sports
at the same time. If you add pickleball -- which, again, I'm not
against pickleball -- you won't have room here, okay.
The other problem is, that I see, is the parking. We already
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mentioned parking quite a bit. They claim that they're going to be
using bicycles. They're going to be walking. I've never seen a
bicycle in the park ever. Nobody's going to use their bicycle. So
they're going to park where, in Pavilion? Is that okay? I mean,
they're going to be parking at Pavilion across the street and walking.
I guess that's probably okay.
The other thing is I went to talk to the fire department, which is
right next to us. They do rest -- you know, after they pick up -- I
guess, after they do a fire drill and all that, they had no idea that there
was pickleball courts going on on this area here. So would that
affect them as well? So you need to check into that.
I'm sure the noise is going to affect across the street there, you
know, the folks over at the beach -- at the beach over there.
Anyway, that's all I have. I hope you think about this. This
project should not be approved. This field is beautiful. It's been
great for many, many years, and I hope our kids will eventually use
it. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Trent Waterhouse, and he
will be followed by Dr. Joseph Doyle.
MR. WATERHOUSE: Good morning, Commissioners. My
name is Trent Waterhouse, and I'm a Pelican Bay resident for nearly
a decade.
I'm so happy to see the years of tireless efforts, since 2014 by
Pelican Bay members, staff and the Board to find a solution for
pickleball, have brought us to where they are today with a mutually
beneficial solution forged in partnership with Collier County Parks
and Recreation.
The opportunity before the commissioners today is a
win-win-win proposition. Pelican Bay members win with priority
access to pickleball courts we can walk or ride our bikes to without
driving to Veterans Park or another remote location. The North
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Naples, Vanderbilt, and Naples Park community wins with renovated
tennis, new pickleball, and preservation of fields used for soccer,
Little League, and softball youth sports, even fly-fishing lessons.
Collier County Parks and Recreation wins with a public-private
partnership to accelerate the availability of more pickleball courts in
the county while enriching the quality of life for the people they
serve. A Pelican Bay survey shows pickleball is the No. 2 priority
for our members.
As a resident with a 30-year perspective on the future of Pelican
Bay, this project is strategically sound, fiscally responsible, a unique
opportunity to add a value -- a highly valued amenity.
A fundamental truth about pickleball: People want it as long as
it's not in their backyard. The proposed pickleball-in-the-park
solution places the courts the furthest distance way away from any
residence possible while also deploying technology and landscaping
to mitigate the sound propagation.
Pelican Bay was the first and remains a leading Southwest
Florida community to invest millions annually to ensure stormwater
drainage is both effective and natural to protect the mangrove estuary
and our neighbors. In fact, all of Pine Ridge to the east drains
through the Pelican Bay stormwater management ponds to ensure
environmentally sound and natural drainage through the mangroves
to the gulf.
Parking and traffic are mitigated by these new courts being close
enough to Pelican Bay, Vanderbilt, and Naples Park neighborhoods
so players can walk or ride a bike rather than drive.
I strongly recommend the commissioners vote to approve so
Pelican Bay and our neighbors in Vanderbilt, Naples Park, and North
Naples can have another reason to love living in Collier County.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Dr. Joseph Doyle, and
then he will be followed on Zoom by Anne Georger-Harris.
August 22, 2023
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Dr. Doyle's been ceded three additional minutes from Sandy
Doyle, who is seated right there.
(Raises hand.)
DR. DOYLE: Good morning, Commissioners. Dr. Joseph
Doyle.
I used to be a regular speaker here before COVID. So this is
our first time, Mother and I, since January of 2020. So some of the
commissioners may not have seen us. I called in a couple times on
Zoom, but it's nice to be here in person. And my mother is the
property owner in Pelican Bay. She's lived in Pelican Bay for 32
years, since July of 1991.
And we're happy to hear about some of the changes that were
made over the last couple days to the management agreement, but
that's part of my concern is that this thing is half-baked. There's
been this; there's been that. It's kind of like a cake going in and out
of the oven. A lot of moving parts.
And in addition to my medical degree, I have five other
advanced degrees in management, MBA, and leadership.
And I want this to be successful. That park was built not really
for the residents of Pelican Bay. We have our own amenities down
at the beach, and we have a community center but, really, to be a
good neighbor to Naples Park and Vanderbilt Beach.
And the gentleman who spoke just before me over here at this
podium from Naples Park, he's concerned about the children and
those fields. I was concerned about the wall. I know the kids like
to bounce against the wall. You know, they have imaginations.
They like to play. We have the soccer. We have the baseball. I'm
concerned about those kids having the park that they need.
I was also concerned -- of course, we know there's a change with
the fee schedule. It was going to be double what the other county
parks have, and that's been supposedly resolved.
August 22, 2023
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So like I said, there's a lot of things out there. This is also the
summer. We have Pelican Bay residents who are footing the bill for
this who are not here to know all the details.
I just feel that I'd like to pause it. Not kill it, but just pause it
until it can be better developed. That being said, the survey that was
done in February of 2021, or any survey, for that matter -- all
surveys, as far as I'm concerned -- and I have an MBA in marketing.
All those surveys are null and void because we had a hurricane in
September of '22, and all the priorities have changed.
Now, my mother is one of the original owners in Pelican Bay,
and some of her neighbors are also on fixed income, fixed pensions,
and social security, and they are being hit with $14 million repairs
down at the beach. We have the two hotels and the beach, et cetera,
as well as community center, and being assessed 2,195 here shortly.
Well, money's fungible, so do we really have the $6 million to be
paying for the park? You know, you can talk about this fund and
that fund. As far as I'm concerned, it still comes out of the same
bank account for Mother.
Plus, some communities, such as my mother's, are being hit with
their own damages that are not being reimbursed by insurance as well
as insurers who are requiring her community to put on a roof eight
years earlier. Right now we're going to put it on in October because
they won't insure us if we don't put it on. Well, that's another
$10,000 assessment. So she's looking at, between this, that, and the
other things, $20,000 of assessments on a fixed income.
Now, I don't expect you to really worry about, you know, our
finances but, not everyone in Pelican Bay is a millionaire and can
afford this $6 million gift to the County. I think it's a great thing; I
just think the timing is bad.
The other thing that I don't feel that the Pelican Bay Foundation
Board explored with County staff is since we have the three hotels,
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Page 72
the Ritz recently reopened, the Naples Grande, and the Inn at Pelican
Bay, they have contributed for years to the tourist development tax.
There is going to be a component here that is related to tourism, so
why can't we use a little TDC money towards the 6 million?
So that's why I say, this whole thing has been -- there are many
good parts to it, but it hasn't been fully developed. So I'm asking
you to pause it, kind of go back to the drawing board, make sure
everybody's on the same page with all the amenities that are going to
be there, the parking, et cetera, et cetera, and even the financing.
Does it have to be totally $6 million from Pelican Bay? Could we
look at some TDC money? Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker -- we're now moving to
Zoom -- is Anne Georger-Harris, and she will be followed by George
Harris.
I see you've unmuted yourself. Anne, you have three minutes.
MS. GEORGER-HARRIS: Okay. I just wanted to say that at
this point, when I look at perspective, like Mr. LoCastro mentioned at
the beginning of the meeting about having perspective.
I want to tell you about my perspective. My lanai has no glass
component to it either. It's a completely screened-in lanai. I spend
a lot of time in that lanai, and it is extremely vulnerable to the noise
from that park. And I say this because my building was not included
in the sound mitigation study, nor was the J building of Avalon,
which is directly in front of my building. That was not included in
any way, shape, or form as part of the sound mitigation study, yet, I
have no building that protects me from the park. The way K sits out
towards Hammock Oak -- my unit in K sits out toward Hammock
Oak, J does not protect me from the park noise.
So we really need to look at -- and it's the same situation in the E
building. They also are not protected by the building
that's -- it's -- there's a building in front of them, but there's -- they're
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outside of the protection of that building. So I think that has to be
looked at.
Also, the sound mitigation report, if you look at the disclaimer
on the sound mitigation report, it's quite astounding because they
pretty much say we can't be held responsible for this and we -- this
sound mitigation report is an estimate of conditions that we hope will
prevail, but if they don't, we're not responsible, and that's just really a
lot.
So this whole perspective for me is about my life. For
everybody else it's about playing pickleball. I don't play. Although,
I sometimes play but, I mean, pickleball's not a big thing to me. But
my life is a big thing, and I don't expect to have the sound of voices
as loud as human voices in my lanai. And, in fact, it might be louder
because my unit has never been included. So it's a problem for me.
Item No. 2 is the beach parking. You guys are widening
Vanderbilt Beach Road up -- let's see -- east of -- west -- no -- south
of -- no -- up farther towards -- on the other side of Airport-Pulling,
way up that way, you're widening it. I saw that in the Naples Daily
News. And so people will be using the parking lot for the Pelican
Bay Community Park for beach parking, especially in peaks on
weekends, which is probably the same time when pickleball will be at
peak.
And they're used to using that because the Vanderbilt Beach
parking deck fills up, and that sign goes up pretty much -- in season,
every Saturday and Sunday the sign goes up on that lot. So they use
the one for the park, but they won't be using the one for the park
because it won't be available.
So I'm just saying that -- and they're carrying all kinds of stuff to
the park, you know. It's not like they can really use the Pavilion
or -- and certainly not Mercato. They're carrying too much stuff.
It's going to be really hard -- or Pelican Bay Marketplace. They
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really count on that lot, and you're making more people have access
to the beach, but you're providing less for more people, less parking
for more people.
And the other thing is the traffic study. There was a traffic
study done for Naples One, and in that traffic study they barely
squeaked out an approval saying that Naples One would provide an
addition of 45 cars per hour going past -- going up and down that
section of Vanderbilt Beach Drive.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Ma'am, can you please wrap up,
please. Thank you.
MS. GEORGER-HARRIS: Okay. I can't see a timer.
Okay. Thank you very much. But the traffic study needs to
really be done, and also the drainage. That's the storm surge
draining for us -- drainage for us, and with all the hurricanes, we need
the storm surge drainage. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, ma'am.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker George Harris, and he will
be followed by Robert Unetich.
Mr. Harris, you're being prompted to unmute yourself. There
you are, sir. You have three minutes.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you very much.
You've heard all of the pros and cons, I'm sure, for many, many
months. And the term win-win-win-win keeps being bandied about.
But there's a definite loser in this whole proposal.
I live in Avalon. And I cannot see a win for Avalon. And it
seems to me that the only way that one could be in favor of and
approve this whole project with the pickleball courts is if you simply
just consider Avalon as collateral damage. You're willing to
sacrifice the comfort and peace and quiet and our lives that we've
become accustomed to for the pickleball movement. I feel very
saddened by that fact and feel left out; that we are just considered
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expendable.
You make a sound mitigation report. You may give us one.
And as the previous speaker just said, it's empty promises. The
disclaimers say that there is no guarantee that any of this is going to
happen, and my guess is is that there will be sound. You can debate
all you want how loud it's going to be. There will be sound. It will
be in my living space, and it will affect my life and the lives of
Avalon.
All of us in Avalon -- I shouldn't say "all" -- the vast majority,
and our board unanimously opposes this because we lose. And if
you're willing to allow that so that all the other people can play
pickleball on the win side, it saddens me that it has come to this.
So I thank you for the time to speak. I thank you for your
consideration. And I hope someone in their hearts can consider
Avalon as important.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is -- I lost my place. Robert
Unetich, and he will be followed by Brian Patterson.
Mr. Unetich, you have three minutes. Robert?
MR. UNETICH: Yes, morning. Yes, I'm here.
So I'm the person that wrote the sound assessment report. I've
been an electrical engineer and acoustics engineer for decades.
This report is very similar to others around the country with the
expansion of pickleball and, in general, someone quoted me as saying
you couldn't do this within 500 feet. Well, I never said precisely
that, but you shouldn't do pickleball courts within 4- or 500 feet of
homes unless you do some sound mitigation.
I will say, this client of mine, the Foundation, has been very
concerned about sound mitigation, and we recommended and
designed acoustic barriers -- absorbing acoustic barriers that would,
in fact, be along the south side of these courts that would be 12 feet
high.
August 22, 2023
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And I happen to winter in Bonita Bay, where we -- where I first
got involved in pickleball sound in 2015, and there we had homes
within 200 feet of the courts, and we installed absorbing sound
blankets there. They've been quite effective.
So my view is that within 4- or 500 feet, you need to take into
consideration sound mitigation. And we did that in our study with
the software, and I believe that with the trees and the other shrubbery
and things you have present, the numbers we predicted will actually
be quite conservative. I think you will do better than those numbers
in the Avalon area.
So I think pickleball will be successful at this site. I have no
other comments.
MR. MILLER: Thank you, sir.
Your next speaker is Brian Patterson, and he will be followed by
Edythe Verbesky.
Mr. Patterson, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if
you'll do so. There you are, sir. You have three minutes.
MR. PATTERSON: Good morning, Commissioners. My
name is Brian Patterson, and I'm here to voice my opposition to the
current Pelican Bay proposal. I've owned a condo in Avalon that
backs up to the park for the last 11 years.
I clearly, in listening to all the statements today, understand the
desire of Collier County to take the $6 million from -- $6 million
from Pelican Bay for the parks, but it still must be a decision that is a
win for everyone and, in my opinion, this proposal is not.
On the topic of noise, which is a major concern to me, backing
up to the park, and we've had discussions by everyone. The PSM
sound study presented to the public is, in my opinion, no longer valid
with the latest design changes that were just dropped on us on
August 16th. The large building that was moved to the side was a
key part of the original sound study and promoted by the Pelican Bay
August 22, 2023
Page 77
Foundation that this was going to be a major sound blocker. And at
this point it no longer provides the same validated benefit for the
positioning.
A new sound study for the current layout, including noise data
for Avalon's second and third floors, as well as the J building, which
was totally left out of the last study, should be completed before this
proposal can be voted on by the county commissioners.
Also being sure to include in this study the impact of not just
pickleball noise, but the noise of large crowds, and now that they're
going to have tournaments there, weekend-long tournaments with all
these people, that needs to definitely be included in this study.
Secondly, when this is -- if this is approved and built, who is
responsible to validate that the sound levels are acceptable and that
the people that back up to the park are in agreement with when these
studies are taken and run that are done at maximum times of crowds
and play?
On the topic of parking, you know, there's been a lot of
discussion this morning. Mr. Rodriguez stated in his opening
comments that currently the parking is a problem at the Pelican Bay
Park. So now just think about adding 20 pickleball courts with all
the numbers that were used earlier. You're looking at adding a ton
more people just for pickleball, and they will be there, and they will
be there in groups heavily and on time.
Now, you move that along, and with the new crowds and
everything, you're only adding 30 parking spaces for the Collier
County residents, it's going to be extremely difficult for them to find
parking to use the green space, and they've been able to use this park
for years, as the gentleman that lives in Naples Park expressed this
morning. So this is going to be no longer an easily accessible park
for those that aren't pickleball or tennis players.
And, finally, I'm requesting some sort of a written confirmation
August 22, 2023
Page 78
to the public that, most importantly, there's going to be no future
expansion of this park. This is unbelievable that this green space can
disappear, because you folks that are on this commissioner board will
be gone, and in five years there will be another group, and in 10
years, there will be another.
And politics is a wonderful thing. I'm from the Chicago area.
Politics is wonderful. We have a great state here of Illinois that
we've prospered at politicians doing things that make no sense;
however, I'd like to make sure we have no future expansion of the
park, that there will be no lights in the pickleball courts, and that you
will, indeed, make sure a new sound study for the new layout will be
provided with the other amenities of second and third floor as well
as --
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir.
MR. PATTERSON: Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Edythe Verbesky. She'll
be followed by Mark English.
Edythe, you're being prompted to unmute yourself. You have.
You have three minutes.
MS. VERBESKY: Can you hear me?
MR. MILLER: Yes, ma'am. You have three minutes.
MS. VERBESKY: Okay. Thank you all very much.
I guess it's been six years now since I have been involved with
trying to convince Pelican Bay to bring pickleball. I'm very happy
and proud to be a part of the team and the group that has helped with
the proposal, the objections, and everything else.
Michael Foley, your board, congratulations to you. I believe
everything that these folks have tried to negate on the positivity of
pickleball has been addressed.
I have, for the first time in my life, not much more to say than
that except thank you, Commissioners. I think in the very beginning
August 22, 2023
Page 79
of your meeting you did, indeed, address everything, and for that I
say please, please, give us these courts. I am tired of waiting at Vets
Park. I drive to East Naples, and I don't want to make this about me,
me, me. I have plenty of friends in Pelican Bay and North Naples
that also will benefit from this.
So all I can say is thank you very much. Please vote yes, and
for the people in the naysayers, your issues have been addressed; we
do care. Now you care for us and your families, too. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Mark English. He will
be followed by Martha Harris.
Mr. English, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll
do so at this time.
MR. ENGLISH: Good morning, and thank you for allowing us
to share with you the following information. I know most of you,
and I know how hard you work on our behalf. So thank you -- thank
you so much for all that you do.
I'm here as the president of Pelican Bay Property Owners
Association. The Pelican Bay Property Owners Association was
founded in 1984, and there's two objectives. One is to protect the
quality of life in Pelican Bay and, secondly, protect property values.
I'm going to delete a lot of this because it's already been covered
and I don't want to be redundant and waste your time, but the
important thing that I'm going to say today and share with you are the
results of a survey that we did in the last four days. And this wasn't
done before the hurricane, and this wasn't done in 2021. And this is
a survey that generated hundreds of responses, and I'm going to share
with you the questions and the results.
The first question that we asked is: Are you in favor of the
Collier County/Pelican Bay partnership as designed and shared; yes
or no?
Question 2: Do you think that 1,600,000 of our capital funds
August 22, 2023
Page 80
now being proposed for pickleball instead of to reduce our Pelican
Bay Foundation's special assessment is the correct use of these
funds?
Question 3: Are you concerned about this 30-year contract
with the county producing negative, unintended consequences?
Question 4: Do you support the alcoholic sales in the park
component to this proposed agreement?
And, No. 5, should Pelican Bay wait for the County to provide
pickleball courts instead of spending $6 million to improve the
community's Parks' assets, including pickleball courts, and incur
unknown operating and maintenance costs for all tennis and
pickleball courts for the next 30 years?
We received many responses and, essentially -- and they were
consistent across all five questions being between 75 and 81 percent
against the proposed pickleball in the park. Let me emphasize,
proposed pickleball in the park. Not necessarily pickleball in the
park, but as proposed.
The biggest pushback came on the issue of the alcohol. Now,
today you've clarified some of that for our benefit.
And then let me -- an enthusiastic Pelican Bay board has
advocated for this pickleball solution, but the case can clearly be
made that this whole arrangement was -- with Collier County has
advanced too fast. Even the Parks' board voted 3-2 against moving
it forward, asking for a pause.
More work needs to be done, more voices need to be heard.
Please remember, it's August in Naples. Where is the fire? Why
not put a pause on the project? It's better to avoid acting in haste and
regretting that leisure.
Pelican Bay residents do not want this project as proposed by a
large margin and an obligation of 30 years of liabilities and
unexpected consequences --
August 22, 2023
Page 81
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir.
MR. ENGLISH: -- at this point in time (unintelligible)
proposal. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Martha Harris. She will
be followed by -- I'm going to try my best here -- Rich Mrugala.
Ms. Harris, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll
do so at this time.
(No response.)
MR. MILLER: Martha Harris?
(No response.)
MR. MILLER: All right. I see no activity there, so we're
going to move on to Rich Mrugala, M-r-u-g-a-l-a. I hope I'm saying
that halfway close, sir. I see you've unmuted. You have three
minutes.
MR. MRUGALA: Thank you very much. You did a great job
with my name. My name, again, Rich Mrugala. I live in the
Breakwater in Pelican Bay. I just want to take the opportunity to
address the commissioners today.
For the last year, I have been volunteering to set up portable nets
at the racquetball courts in the Pelican Bay Community Park.
The majority of the people who play are from the surrounding
communities. I have people there from Beachwalk, the Pavilions.
We do have people, obviously, from Pelican Bay. And these people
play together very well. We have a great community, and we enjoy
the sport tremendously.
The opportunity of putting courts here permanently is just
something that's wonderful for the whole surrounding community.
The folks at Naples Park, they ride their shooters, they ride their
bikes, they walk over, as do the people from Beachwalk.
So I know we have talked extensively about the parking issues.
I think there's going to be less of an issue than people have portrayed
August 22, 2023
Page 82
this to be. I think this is a wonderful opportunity for Collier County
and, again, we've got to recognize that Pelican Bay is part of Collier
County. We're not two separate entities. We can play together.
We can work together.
And I urge the Board to consider this wonderful opportunity and
to go forward with this. There have been almost 11 different -- I
think we're on Option 11 -- or Option 11 as far as different layouts of
what this could look like. I will say I wasn't happy with the original
ones because they did take a majority of the green space away.
This current one is -- again, it shows the iteration of working
together. Eleven different options, and we finally got one that I
think is a winner. I hope you do address this and support this
project. Thank you very much.
MR. MILLER: All right. Your next speaker will be Sandra
Lane. She will be followed by Susan Zehnder.
Ms. Lane, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do
that at this time. Sandra Lane.
(No response.)
MR. MILLER: All right. We're going to move on to Susan
Zehnder, Z-e-h-n-d-e-r.
Ms. Zehnder, you're prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do so
at this time.
(No response.)
MR. MILLER: Well, let's move on again. Wendy Humphrey.
Wendy Humphrey. You're being prompted to unmute yourself at
this time, if you'll do so.
(No response.)
MR. MILLER: All right. We have nothing from Wendy. So
let's move on to Gary Canino. Gary Canino, C-a-n-i-n-o.
Mr. Canino, you're being prompted to unmute yourself. There
you are. Mr. Canino, there you are. Mr. Canino, you have three
August 22, 2023
Page 83
minutes. Mr. Canino? You're unmuted, sir, but we cannot hear
you.
Okay. Let's try -- let's move on and try Karen Patterson.
Ms. Patterson, you will be prompted shortly to unmute yourself, if
you'll do so at this time.
MS. K. PATTERSON: Are you able to hear me?
MR. MILLER: Yes, ma'am. You have three minutes. Please
begin.
MS. K. PATTERSON: Yeah. My name is Karen Patterson,
and I am concerned about the currently proposed changes to Pelican
Bay Park.
Despite our best efforts to get answers, I am extremely frustrated
with the continuous changes and the lack of fair, clear, and unbiased
communication on this topic.
Just when I started to feel okay with the proposal, I see another
change implemented or another email target and sent only to
supporters of the proposal and certainly not meant to be seen by me.
Our emails and those of others go unanswered for weeks or
receive a form letter reply, yet supporters get a, quote, "you've made
my day" response, and this is from representatives who were elected
to represent us all.
Allegedly, much of the push for pickleball has come from
Pelican Bay residents who, although they are residents of District 2,
already have tennis and other athletic facilities on their own property.
Why do they need exclusive access to 38 percent of the public's
tennis court when they already have 18 on site? Where is the
feedback from District 2 residents outside of Pelican Bay? What is
the percentage of residents in Collier County who actually play
pickleball? Is this -- is this size what the majority of Pelican Bay or
Collier County residents really want?
I believe communication has been lacking, especially while
August 22, 2023
Page 84
many residents are gone for season and residents outside of Pelican
Bay proper have received limited information.
In District 2, the only reference on Mr. Hall's Facebook page has
been a notice of the May 10th meeting. Nothing since and no
information at all in his June or July newsletters. How can people
outside of Pelican Bay voice their opinions when most are not even
aware of what is being proposed?
I, too, applaud the county government for your changes to the
alcohol and fee changes. Can you provide us a visual of how these
are currently worded in the agreement?
My concerns: I see sound mitigation recommendations
included in the summary, but even the most recent drawing only
shows fencing to the side. Where are the parameters or demand for
a follow-up study after construction included in the contract?
More importantly, we have been assured multiple times of no
further expansion, yet Item 10 of the agreement clearly describes,
right under (unintelligible) for, quote, any additional tennis or
pickleball courts. Clearly, this does not take future expansion off the
table.
I am saddened, saddened because I feel a compromised plan
could and can be supported by all. Indeed, I find more and more
people have been -- become opposed to this collaboration, and it has
now turned neighbor against neighbor, which is certainly not a win
for all.
How can Collier County citizens compete with a corporation
that has $6 million-plus to offer?
This is a small park with a small footprint and close to
residences. This is no place for something of this magnitude. If the
County's $100 million-plus spend on East Naples was an overspend,
please don't sell us out -- those of us out to the north.
Ultimately, the decision on this matter does not come down to a
August 22, 2023
Page 85
majority of residents but to 11 people. There is no urgency to get
this completed quickly. Find us a successful prototype to study.
Please look at Centennial, Colorado, who voted a moratorium 8-1 to
place a moratorium on pickleball facilities within 500 feet of
residences until they can take the time to be secure in their decisions.
I sincerely request that you follow suit and vote no at this time
and take the time needed to amend this plan to make it one that is
assured to be a benefit for all.
Thank you very much.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker will be Tom Hay. He will
be followed by Deb Reed. We have a little delay here.
Mr. Hay, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do
so at this time. There you are, Mr. Hay. You have three minutes.
MR. HAY: Terrific. Thank you.
My name is Tom Hay. I live in the Breakwater community,
and I'm a pickleball player.
Again, I would like to thank everybody for the thoughtful
consideration of the proposal to enhance the park.
As residents of Breakwater, my wife and I live adjacent to the
park, and we're strongly in favor of this proposal. Why? Because
we believe in the recreation part of Parks and Recreation.
As pickleball players, I ride my bike over to the park, and I play
with a group that Rich Mrugala referenced there, and it's a thriving
area, even though we have temporary nets on concrete courts and
scratchy lines, and we're also two of the more than 1,400 people who
have expressed support for this proposal in the form of a petition.
My wife and I are full-time residents, and we see regularly that
access to courts throughout the county is not adequate to meet
demand. Like one of the previous speakers, we've experienced long
and increasing wait times at Veterans Park for the simple 10- to
15-minute game, so much so that we don't go there much anymore.
August 22, 2023
Page 86
We look at the overall impact of the proposal as extremely
positive on community interests like increasing access to outdoor,
physical, and social activities, and that's exactly why a lot of us are
here living in this community and why others are drawn to Collier
County.
We think this is a unique opportunity, and my wife and I
encourage the commissioners to vote in favor of the improvements
that are proposed for the park. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is going to be Deb Reed.
She will be followed by -- we're going to go back and try Susan
Zehnder again. She was having a mute-button issue.
Ms. Reed, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do
so at this time. I see you now. You have three minutes, ma'am.
MS. REED: Yes. Thank you, everyone, for your time. I
know this is a big issue that's been talked about for a long time. I
think that I, too, like the last caller, have gone over to Veterans and
have to wait in very long lines to play. But I have done that, and I
think this is a great solution, a win solution for, yes, Pelican Bay, but
also all the other pickleball players in the area, and I think that the
studies have been great for the mitigation, the sound mitigation, and
they've addressed the parking as best they can. That is an issue, and
I realize that, and it has been an issue. I mean, even with the beach
parking as well.
But I think that this is a very good option, and I look forward to
having this passed and move forward. I think everybody will
see -- come to see the benefit if this comes to fruition.
So thank you very much for your time, and I look forward to
seeing it move on. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Susan Zehnder, and she
will be followed by Susan O'Brien.
Ms. Zehnder, you're being prompted to unmute yourself. I see
August 22, 2023
Page 87
you have. You have three minutes, ma'am.
MS. ZEHNDER: Great. Thank you very much. I'm here to
speak for the public pickleball players. And my comments focus
on --
MR. MILLER: Ma'am, I'm going to interrupt you for a second.
If you have a different -- like, a TV on in the background or
something -- we're getting a little bit repeating echo from you. If
you have something else on, can you turn it down, please? Please go
ahead when you're ready.
All right. Susan, I've lost you. Are you there?
MS. ZEHNDER: I'm here.
MR. MILLER: There. I see you back. Go ahead, Susan.
MS. ZEHNDER: Okay. I'm here to speak for the public
pickleball players, and my comments focus on the failure of the
management agreement to protect public access to (unintelligible).
The public was promised 10 public pickleball courts. What
happened to that promise? I suggest that the two following
sentences be added to the management agreement. There will be 10
public pickleball courts, and the public past members may form an
operating committee to determine daily programming and to decide
when and if they wish to collaborate with the Foundation on daily
court sharing, special events, and tournaments.
At the April PARAB meeting, the public was promised 10
public pickleball courts. At the June PARAB meeting, we were
again promised 10 public pickleball courts. So what happened to
that promise?
My lawyer read the management agreement and tells me that if
the condition is not clearly defined in the management agreement,
then it cannot be enforced. Right now the only mention of public
access in the management agreement is Page 2, Item 3, where it
states, quote, the public shall have access to the premises, end quote.
August 22, 2023
Page 88
That's it. It only says that the public shall have access to the
premises. It doesn't even specify that the public shall have access to
the pickleball courts.
There is no other mention of public access, planning
(unintelligible) in the management agreement. There is no way to
enforce the ambiguous statement.
My lawyer said this management agreement reads like a
document that was written by Foundation attorneys for the benefit of
Foundation interests.
Page 2, Item 3, Line 4 of the management agreement states,
quote, no more than 50 percent of the pickleball courts shall be for
usage by members of the Foundation, unquote. Perhaps the
intention of this statement was that the other 50 percent would be for
the public, yet it does not mention the public at all.
The problem with this language is that it is vague and can be
interpreted in different ways. For example, if we don't have 10
public courts, the Foundation could shut down all 20 courts for a
tournament. Does that count as Foundation time or public time?
We were promised 10 public pickleball courts. I hope that we
can trust the County to keep its promise and provide 10 public
pickleball courts.
I recommend that this management agreement be modified to
include language to protect the public. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker will be Susan O'Brien. She
will be followed by Tim Corcoran.
Ms. O'Brien, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll
do that. I see you there. You have three minutes, ma'am.
MS. O'BRIEN: Thank you very much. My name's Susan
O'Brien, and I live in Pelican Bay.
And I really appreciate that you've addressed this morning two
key things about this agreement that were objectionable, and that is
August 22, 2023
Page 89
the fees -- they're now going to be the same in all county parks,
including at Pelican Bay Community Park -- and the alcohol.
Pelican Bay will need to follow the County's guidelines relative to the
sale of alcohol, so thank you very much.
But, certainly, based on today's comments, it's clear that there
are other -- many other key issues with this agreement. So I'm just
going to urge that you delay a decision on this until more people have
time to understand what's in the agreement and, like the woman that
just spoke, talk about how the courts will be divided so there's a clear
understanding that the public does, in fact, get access to 10 of the
courts.
Lots of things to be kind of worked out in this agreement. So I
think the best case is to just delay the decision until some of those
things have been worked out and the agreement is more in line with
both a win-win for the County and for Pelican Bay. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Well, Tim Corcoran has dropped off my
screen, so we're going to go to Raymond Parker, and then I will try to
come back for Tim Corcoran.
Mr. Parker, you're being prompted to unmute yourself at this
time, Raymond Parker, if you'll do so. I see you, Mr. Parker. You
have three minutes.
MR. PARKER: Hello. Thank you very much.
I'm definitely against the agreement as it currently sits. The
universal imperative for our county parks is that they be made
available for the benefit of all our citizens equally.
This idea that a select group of people can essentially buy a
portion of our park to benefit a small group of people is contrary to
that universal imperative.
No portion of Pelican Bay Community Park should be leased to
any group for their own exclusive purpose. It is contrary to the basic
philosophy of community parks. Collier County parks should be
August 22, 2023
Page 90
available to all its citizens. After all, isn't that the idea of having a
park for the community? Shouldn't community parks be a place to
build community, not separate community?
If this idea is implemented, then I suggest you remove the word
"community" from the name; otherwise, it is a misnomer.
Also, it sets a very bad precedent. Any number of
organizations will be able to stake a claim for public land and make a
sweet deal to expand the offerings exclusively to their own members.
I have heard a commissioner say that the tram operation at Clam Pass
Beach is an example of a similar arrangement where a private
company operates on public land. It is not even close to what this
deal represents.
Maybe if there are two separate lines to get on the tram and one
line is restricted to certain people who got on the tram before anyone
else could, the example would hold water, but it doesn't operate that
way. Everyone gets to use the tram on a first come, first serve basis,
kind of like how all public services should operate.
The County should not approve this idea. It basically gives
away public property forever and does nothing to enhance our sense
of community. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: We've lost Tim Corcoran, so we're going to go
with Bill Feldman, and Bill will be followed by Mike Ruffolo.
Mr. Feldman, you're being prompted to unmute yourself at this
time, if you'll do that. Mr. Feldman, I see you. You have three
minutes, sir.
MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.
I am speaking in favor of the -- of the proposal for a community
Pelican Bay arrangement for pickleball and related facilities and
amenities.
I've played pickleball at the community -- Pelican Bay
Community Park for three years. I played with Rich and with Tom
August 22, 2023
Page 91
and with a number of other people, including people -- I am a Pelican
Bay resident. I've played with people who are in Beachwalk in
Pavilion, and we've all got along very, very well. We play at the
courts that were mentioned, which are closer -- significantly closer to
Avalon than the courts that are being proposed, and we have not
heard any feedback. In fact, we play with people from Avalon and
Breakwater and the others I mentioned, and there's been no complaint
about noise, and there's no mitigation at this point; there's no wall
mitigation. I believe that the noise level will actually be lower than
it is right now.
The other point that I would like to make is that, you know, I
know that a number of people have said that this is not a win-win for
the community, but I strongly disagree with that. It is a win-win for
the community because we don't have pickleball now and we will,
and there is obviously great demand for pickleball. Anybody who
plays at Veterans Park will know, you know, that it's overcrowded,
and many people don't play because of the wait times.
The other point that I'd like to make is I really take issue with
the survey that Mr. English raised. That survey was four days ago.
People got the notice just hours before they were asked to respond to
it. I don't believe that that survey represents the feeling of the
community here in Pelican Bay or the community -- the wider
community. If you want to do a survey, do a survey, but don't do it
the way that it was done because it does not reflect my experience in
talking to people, a great many people, about the desire to have
pickleball in Pelican Bay. I could tell you that we've been talking
about this for years, and there is great demand for it here.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chair, we're down to your final speaker on
this item, and that would be Mike Ruffolo.
Mike, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do so
August 22, 2023
Page 92
at this time. I see you there, sir. You have three minutes.
MR. RUFFOLO: Thank you. Can you hear me okay?
MR. MILLER: Yes, sir.
MR. RUFFOLO: Okay. Thank you, and thank you,
Commissioners. My name is Mike Ruffolo. I'm the chairman of
the board of the Pelican Bay Foundation and, as you know, we're a
community of 6,700 homes in North Naples.
And I wanted to thank you for taking the time to consider this
proposal. I think it's been a very thoughtful and balanced discussion,
probably longer than you want; however, I think also know from our
45 years of partnering between the Foundation and Collier County
that we're very good neighbors, and we maintain high standards, and
we commit to things and then deliver on those commitments.
I can assure you, representing all of us at Pelican Bay, that we
will be great stewards of this park and -- our portion of the park and
we'll be a model for the rest of the county.
We all know that Naples has achieved notoriety in a positive
way for being the pickleball capital of the world. This is further
evidence that we're investing in the future of this sport and of this
recreation.
When the dust clears and you get through all the information
people presented, the project has the overwhelming support of both
Pelican Bay and our neighbors in North Naples. We've agreed to
invest $6 million in this park to improve something that's going to
benefit the entire community.
As I mentioned, Pelican Bay and Collier County have worked
together for over 40 years, and this project will be a source of pride
for everyone when it's complete. I urge you to follow your instincts
to do the right things for all of us here in this part of the community
and approve this plan.
Thank you.
August 22, 2023
Page 93
MR. MILLER: That was your final speaker on this item, sir.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. I have some questions for
the team, so Mr. Rodriguez and group, and then I'll see if any
commissioners light up.
When the County -- or when a developer is building something,
we normally have neighborhood information meetings. I know this
is totally different. But it sounded like -- and correct me if I'm
wrong -- some of the speakers were implying that Pelican Bay
people -- residents all got together and they sort of cussed and
discussed and sort of hashed it out, but the people that live in Avalon
didn't seem like they were invited to these discussion meetings, and
then is it Breakwater is north? Are those the buildings?
So just explain to me how their voices were heard into this
whole -- you know, did they just get emails and they heard things on
the periphery, or was there some sort of everybody was invited under
one roof to discuss this possible project?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely, Commissioner. For the
record, Dan Rodriguez, your Deputy County Manager.
There's actually two groups of neighborhood information
meetings, and the County is well-versed in our process for
neighborhood information meetings. They're actually advertised.
So your Parks and Recreation Division had several
neighborhood information meetings where they invited the public out
to get their opinion.
In addition to that, the PARAB meetings, the three that are
mentioned in the presentation, those were advertised as well.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Did we have heavy turnout from
Avalon and Breakwater? I mean, obviously, you know, Pelican
Bay -- you know, I mean, you do have some mixed reviews from
Pelican Bay. Some people like it, some people don't. But I think
it's heavier on the side of favorable. But the surrounding
August 22, 2023
Page 94
community, was Breakwater and Avalon, you know, did they heavily
attend?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: We had a very good attendance. I
attended two of the first meetings with Parks and Recreation, and
there were about 100 people there. As far as where they were and
who they represented, I don't have those details. But also Pelican
Bay had their own neighborhood information meetings for the --
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I know a lot of them probably
voiced alcohol, parking, traffic, and we've worked through some of
that. But was the noise an issue? Was that something that was
voiced aggressively by the 100-plus people or, you know -- and are
we hearing an example of exactly what you heard at that meeting?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: From the number of people that attended,
I would say close to 90 percent of the people were in favor of the
pickleball operations and the tennis courts and whatnot. And so it
was probably about 10 percent there who brought up, excuse me,
noise who didn't want to see the project go forward. Alcohol wasn't
an issue at the time because that was --
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Oh, it came later, yeah.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: -- a late proposition, yeah.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So the noise attenuation that has
been added or discussed, just review for us again, so it's north to
south down that east side, right, there's going to some sort of
wall -- am I correct there -- that doesn't exist now that will?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Sure. If you take a look at the --
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: -- the bottom half where it's closest to the
facility that's going to be built, that's the southern side of the
complex.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: The noise attenuation will run along there
August 22, 2023
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so that the noise doesn't travel across that field.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. This, obviously, when you
look at this footprint, it maximizes the footprint, you know. How
many pickleball courts can you squeeze into this footprint? Was
there ever a discussion of something smaller? I'm not -- I'm not
offering that as a proposal. But was -- did it -- like you said, this has
been in discussion for a really long time. Did it start out with 10
courts and then 15 and then an engineer figured out how they could
squeeze in five more, and that's how we came up with the 20? How
did this thing grow over time, or was this always the approved
solution and the best way to maximum that footprint? I just want a
little bit of historical background on how this might have grown or
how it didn't. It was always -- it was always this.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Sure. I think originally it was to
maximum footprint, and as the plans came forward and they looked
at the different facilities that need to be replaced, as well as
expanding the tennis courts and adding two more tennis courts, it
kind of congealed into what you see now.
As far as if we woke up -- or if the group woke up one day and
said, you know what, let's just do five and six, I don't think so. I
think it was more of a comprehensive plan for a racquet center to
maximum the footprint.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: When I look at the baseball
field -- and somebody had brought this up. If you hit a fly ball down
the right hand -- the first-base line and it goes foul, it basically lands
in the pickleball courts, unless you tell me that down that first-base
line there's some sort of, like, high fence or high net or something
like that. Is there anything?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yeah. The plan is to get the permitting
for a 12-foot fence there on that border.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Okay. And I thought I
August 22, 2023
Page 96
remember you had said that, but a few of the callers were, you
know -- but I don't even know if that's enough. I mean, you hit a fly
ball, it goes -- and not to say that that's -- that happens.
Okay. I have all the other commissioners lit up, so I'm going to
hold some of my follow-ups because they might ask that.
I'm going to start with Commissioner Saunders, who's next, and
then Commissioner Kowal, sir, you're on deck, followed by
Commissioner McDaniel.
Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I think I want to start off
with a couple questions for the County Attorney.
I assume your office negotiated the document. I've taken a look
at it, but I didn't look at it in the kind of detail that I'm assuming that
your office would have.
MR. KLATZKOW: We worked very closely with
Mr. Rodriguez and his people on this.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay.
MR. KLATZKOW: Yes.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So there was some question
about the guarantee of public access to our park system and --
MR. KLATZKOW: The guarantee is set forth in the contract
itself.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. So you're
comfortable that there's no real restriction on the access of the general
public to this facility?
MR. KLATZKOW: It is guaranteed by the contract, and what
further guarantees it is that all these improvements are improvements
that staff would want anyway. And if for some reason this board is
unhappy with the way this is being conducted, we'll take it back.
Now, we'll have to repay part of it, but we can take it back at any
time.
August 22, 2023
Page 97
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: So there's a provision in
there for termination for convenience?
MR. KLATZKOW: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Tell me how that works.
MR. KLATZKOW: If, for whatever reason, this board elects to
terminate this management agreement, then the County will take it
back on a depreciated access -- depreciated standpoint. We'd have to
repay the Foundation part of the money that they invested.
COMMISSIONER HALL: It's 1/360th for every month that
we --
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay.
MR. KLATZKOW: So that's the fail-safe here. So if Pelican
Bay does not do what they said they were going to do, we can take it
back, and we'll get the improvements, which we wanted anyway.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right. So some of the
comments made by the public kind of got my attention. One person
indicated that we're getting a divorce from this park, and I really just
wanted to point out that I don't really think we are.
MR. KLATZKOW: Yeah, I don't know what that means.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Well, I know what he meant
by it. What he meant by it is that the County's basically handing
over the park to the Pelican Bay Foundation and it's no longer really
going to be a county park.
But I wanted to clarify the termination provision, because I think
that's key to this whole thing, and that is, if the Foundation doesn't do
the right thing and we get a lot of complaints about it, then it's a
simple matter of termination. It's a budget issue at that point and,
quite frankly, this is probably something the County should have
done in the past in terms of improving the park, but we didn't. Now
we have an opportunity to have the Foundation do that. But at the
same time, we still are in control of that.
August 22, 2023
Page 98
MR. KLATZKOW: Yeah. I'll put --
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Now, let me -- in terms of
the Foundation, if the Foundation terminates the agreement --
MR. KLATZKOW: Then we get the improvement for free.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. So if you want to
terminate, that's something certainly we would consider.
But, anyway, I think the point is that this really isn't a divorce
from the park. We are really in control with that termination
provision. I think that's really key to the whole thing, and that's why
I wanted to emphasize it.
MR. KLATZKOW: And we've had management agreements in
this park before. This is not the first one.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: If I may add to that as well, Commissioner
Saunders.
We have management agreements at the sports complex with
Sports Facilities. They run and manage that park, and that works
very well. And when the County needs or has a special interest for a
special group, they easily work through those challenges. Same with
East Naples Community Park. We built a
five-and-a-half-million-dollar facility. The taxpayers of the
community paid for that, and it is -- it is run for the national
pickleball championship, and we, again, have a great relationship.
If there are demands or needs that our community requires or
Parks and Recreation staff recommends, we quickly come to terms
with that. So the leverage -- because the assets are turned over to us,
once they get their CO, the leverage stays with the County
government.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you, Chairman.
I've got a few questions to bounce around. As of right
now -- well, I just realized that, I guess, they do some makeshift
August 22, 2023
Page 99
pickleball courts there using the old racquetball area that's on the park
as it is now, right? If you could pull that picture back up, I'm sorry,
Troy. That kind of shows the overlay. So that's that kind of darkish
gray square --
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Correct.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: -- on the south --
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: -- I guess the southwest corner
next to the basketball court.
So the people have been using that as a pickleball court to kind
of makeshift their own, put their net up, and have been lining it.
Do you know if Parks and Recs have received any complaints
about the noise from Avalon? Because that's probably -- in my
estimate, probably about 100 feet from that far right -- far left
building at Avalon. Do you know of any complaints of the sound
or --
MR. RODRIGUEZ: I turned to Tanya, and she said she doesn't
recall any.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. So we have no sound
barrier --
MR. RODRIGUEZ: No.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: -- in place for that particular area
in the park as it is now?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: No, we don't. And, in fact, we don't use
sound barriers in any of our parks for pickleball.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. I guess my next question
is, somebody had brought up the parking. And I know you've
mentioned in your own statement that, you know, parking's always
been an issue. And just using the young lady's numbers herself. I
mean, as it is right now, with the 60 spots, and if you take the
numbers she used in peak, we're probably about 30 spots less than we
August 22, 2023
Page 100
should be anyways. But, you know, adding 100 more spots, you
know -- and you have to take into consideration, you know, do we
have any leagues right now that use the baseball diamond, any
softball leagues or Little League leagues as of right now to contract
that particular field out?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: I believe we do for -- there are several
leagues that actually schedule. This field is scheduled through Parks
and Recreation, so yes.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So in all reality, they're going to
get a better facility out of it in the future with this agreement between
Pelican?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely. I think the challenges are
going to be in season when you have a lot of people but, again, in
speaking with the Pelican Bay Foundation, where there's an
opportunity for people to ride their bikes, scooter, and whatnot,
you're going to see them take advantage of that. And with the
additional 30-plus parking spots, you know, season lasts what, four,
five months. We're going to be able to utilize that parking for all the
other activities as well.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So we're going to gain about 40
spots, right, to 100?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. And another gentleman
brought up the layout, and I know Commissioner LoCastro -- I'm
sorry. I don't know why I want to do that all the time. I don't know
why. Because you're Italian, not Cuban, I guess. Sorry.
But he brought up saying that you couldn't use the fields, you
know, at the same time with the soccer field and the baseball field.
So I had pulled up -- and you can actually see in the -- underneath the
overlay there where the original diamond sits, and if you take the
lines the way the field would be laid out, you couldn't use both at the
August 22, 2023
Page 101
same time regardless the way it's laid out right now, right?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Yeah. They kind of lay over each other.
But, again, that's scheduled through Parks and Recreation, and if they
have league play, and, you know, but --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: But I'm saying the way it exists
as of right now. If you take that patch and where the diamond is
located -- because it's not always set back towards the road. It's set
in further from the property line.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Sure.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So it would actually overlay the
soccer field itself, regardless, if you tried to put both on at the same
time. So we're not diminishing the use of those two fields, according
to what it is right now. That's, I guess, the point I'm trying to get to.
You know, and we have no pickleball courts there as it is now
for the community to use. So I think they're going to benefit out of
10 pickleball courts that wouldn't be there.
And I think a lot of people have to understand, 35 years ago, 40
years ago, all these parks were built, and everybody wanted tennis
courts in these parks, because that's what people played was tennis,
you know. That was a sport that -- a recreational sport where people
wanted to come out and play tennis. But times have changed, and
the people have changed. And those same tennis players are the
ones utilizing these pickleball courts. It's not like we have a whole
generation of pickleball players that just popped up out of anywhere.
This is pretty much the tennis players that used these courts 30 years
ago are now playing pickleball, and they don't have anywhere to go.
Because I see it in my district in East Naples. That park is
packed. I mean, it is to the gills. And they could probably use more
courts there the way it is.
So, you know, I have to lean towards, you know, kind of
accepting this and understanding, you know, what the agreement is.
August 22, 2023
Page 102
And it makes me feel good that the County Attorney has reinforced
what Commissioner Saunders has brought up, that, you know, this is
not a divorce. This is a partnership, and I think it could work.
So, thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel and then
Commissioner Hall.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yes. I have a couple of
points. And the first question I have is, are these improvements
consistent with the PUD for the Pelican Bay at large?
MR. KLATZKOW: Yes.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. Are we going to be
able to meet the necessary drainage issues that come from the newly
created impervious areas? Has that been run through the system to
ensure that we've got sufficient storage there for stormwater?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: It will have to be formally run through the
system. But we have Josh Fruth here; if he's still here, he can speak
to that design portion.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: You didn't tell me Josh was
going to speak, or I wouldn't have asked the question.
MR. FRUTH: Hello, Commissioners. For the record, Josh
Fruth, vice president of Peninsula Engineering.
The existing park is obviously under a South Florida Water
Management permit. In 1994, when it was built, the design
accommodated for 77 percent impervious. Right now the park sits at
25 percent impervious. So with the green space that you guys have
seen, we will be well below that.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: We're going to still be within
the thresholds that are already established in the existing permit?
MR. FRUTH: That is correct.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. Very good, thank
you.
August 22, 2023
Page 103
Coming back over to the fencing, Dan, with regard to the ball
field and potential foul balls and so on and so forth. And
with -- you're proposing a 12-foot-high fence. Is that 12-foot-high
fence within -- is that going to have to go through permitting as well
and be approved through a PD -- PUDI or anything? Is that --
MR. RODRIGUEZ: A Site Development Plan amendment will
have to be done --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: An SDP amendment, okay.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: If there's an opportunity to increase and
put netting above the fence to catch those balls, we'll make sure that
is placed as well.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. And my other
question has to do with the parking. Have we done or is there a
study available with regard to the parking requisites for a pickleball
facility? Do we have any kind of correlation with the newly
generated parking requisites? We're going back to Josh.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: I'm going to go back to Josh on that
question.
MR. FRUTH: So, again, for the record, Josh Fruth.
The current Land Development Code requires three parking
spaces for every racquet court, so tennis and pickleball would fall
into that category.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Same way.
MR. FRUTH: You need 20 -- 109 parking spaces. There's
105 shown on this plan. But this is a high-level schematic that hasn't
had all the nuts and bolts worked out yet, and that includes 25
parking spaces for the multipurpose field as well. So as of right now
what you're looking at is 105 spaces, and code would require 109.
But given the fact that this hasn't gone through full engineering, I
think we can find four parking spaces.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I gotcha. Okay.
August 22, 2023
Page 104
And my last is more of a comment than anything. I mean,
ostensibly, I can see greater benefit than detraction.
One of the suggestions that I have is a -- if, in fact, this board
chooses to approve it, is a -- some sort of a post-approval reporting
process with measurables and milestones in place both to PARAB
and to the Board of County Commissioners on a regular basis so that
the members of the community that aren't necessarily thinking this is
such a great idea have an opportunity to reach out and express their
concerns or dissatisfactions, as those go, because there are provisions
in the -- in the management or the lease agreement to -- to
discontinue that should the Foundation choose to not play fair, which
the Foundation hasn't in the past done. We're not suggesting that
they're always going to -- they're going to all of a sudden start. But I
would like to see a -- if it's approved, a systemic approval process
with measurables and milestones in place from all areas,
both -- because it is a county park that we're going to engage with a
private entity, even though they are part of our community.
We -- ultimately, I've heard multiple people, including my
colleagues, express concerns about public access being diminished in
some form or format. So I'd suggest that we implement that into this
and --
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: And the suggestion was to
PARAB and to the Board so that we weren't just having one place for
people to come and express their concerns. They could do both, and
that would ultimately feed to the Board.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Understood. And on Page 2 of the
contract, there's actually a compliance component that requires
reporting on that share of the courts, and we'll make sure that gets to
the Board as well as the PARAB.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay.
August 22, 2023
Page 105
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Thank you, Chair.
One comment and then one question. I saw where -- in the
agreement that the Foundation gets three courts out of eight for
reservation purposes. And in my understanding of this deal, in the
very, very, very beginning, all of the tennis courts we're going to
reserve for the public, and the Foundation would get 10 out of the 20
pickleball courts.
I'm not completely, you know, opposed to the three out of eight,
but I know -- I play out there. I play in that -- I play tennis out there,
and under the current management, in the season, the Foundation will
reserve three of those tennis courts and not play. They pay for them,
but they don't play. And so this is not a money-grab thing. So I
don't care if they pay for them, but it's a play issue and an availability
issue with me.
I don't know what kind of reservation system is going to operate,
but I would like to -- you know, I don't mind if Pelican Bay has some
advanced notice to reserve those courts, but that the public -- you
know, just for an example, if you had seven days in advance to
reserve the courts, Pelican Bay could have seven days, and then the
public could reserve it in five days so that those courts would not just
be underutilized or not filled, because if I wanted to play tomorrow
and I call and Chuck says, well, they're full, well -- and they
weren't -- they were paid for but they're not played on, it knocks us
out. It's just -- you know, so I just -- I want to bring that up.
And then there were several comments on we just ought to
postpone this and what's the urgency, and, you know, this is just too
fast, and it's just too much.
So the question is, if it's approved and we jump on board with
this, what is the schedule for completion and -- so that all of the
improve -- what's the schedule for all of the improvements and all the
August 22, 2023
Page 106
improved facilities?
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Sure, absolutely.
In speaking with Jim earlier, he stated that probably getting
through the permit process, design and permitting, it's probably going
to take him into season, well into season. His hope is that mid
spring, late spring, early summer is to start construction, and then,
roughly, what, a six-month -- six-month construction schedule during
the summer months.
COMMISSIONER HALL: So with that, I'll make a motion to
approve.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Chairman, I'll second
the motion.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So I have a motion to
approve from Commissioner Hall, a second from Commissioner
Saunders.
If nobody else has any questions, all in favor?
COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Thank you, Commissioners.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Lunchtime.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So we're going to go to our
10:30 time-certain.
MS. PATTERSON: A little late.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So a couple of comments. So to
those citizens -- and I'm not taking sides or anything, but to some
August 22, 2023
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folks that sent us emails saying the next topic that we're about to
hear, you know, you should be -- you should be hearing more
important things, not just, you know, Bill of Rights or what have you,
so you saw how much time we took for a $6 million investment in
Pelican Bay.
And what you may not know is when we approved the consent
and summary agenda this morning, we approved 34 different items
and millions of dollars' worth of investment and improvement to our
community, things that we've all been previously briefed on that we
didn't feel needed discussion here.
So, you know, I just say that, you know, to the public that
maybe this is your first meeting or, you know, we got hundreds of
emails that, you know, we're focused on all the wrong things. Trust
me, we can walk and chew gum at the same time, and we're chewing
a lot of gum, and we're doing a lot of walking and approving a lot of
things for the County.
So never focus on any one particular item. And if it's pickleball
and it needs hours and hours of discussion, we're going to take it,
because it's also an important topic.
You know, having said, and I know it might not be popular to
the folks that are in here, I think this is a time for a lunch break
because we don't want to have a break in the action. We want to
have good continuity with the discussion for the Bill of Rights
ordinance.
So let's come back here at 1:30, so that's an hour-plus, and we
will pick up from there.
(A luncheon recess was had from 12:24 p.m. to 1:30 p.m.)
MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. If we can have everybody
take their seats, we'll get started on time.
Because I know we have a few new faces in here and people
August 22, 2023
Page 108
have left and people have come, I'm just going to summarize, much
shorter than I did in the beginning, just a couple of reminders
because, obviously, we're going to get into a topic here that has a lot
of public speakers, a lot of emotion on both sides and passion, and
that's great.
But, number one, please silence your cell phones. So if you
went out to lunch and you put your cell phone on, please silence your
cell phone so that we don't have that issue.
We run a very, you know, respectful and professional meeting
here, so even though you might agree to disagree, let's make sure that
we keep everything professional. No outbursts from the crowd.
People have heard me say this before: You know, God rest Jerry
Springer's soul, but this isn't Jerry Springer, so we don't want to have
that kind of audience participation.
You want to be heard at the podium in a respectful way, and so
does the person waiting to come the podium, so let's, you know, keep
that in mind.
To those of you that come to the podium, please use your time
wisely. You only have three minutes unless somebody has yielded
time to you. But if you have three minutes, there's a light system.
Green lights means talk all you want; yellow light means you have 30
seconds left; red light means your time's expired. We're not here to
cut anybody off, but when the red light pops on, that's a good
reminder to start to summarize, you know, your conclusion, if you
would.
If you've signed up to speak and somebody has -- somebody or
multiple people have already said exactly what you're going to say
and you don't -- you don't feel the need to be repetitive, you don't
have to be. You could yield your three minutes back and say, I'm
good. We're not here to tell you that you should do that.
Everybody gets a chance to speak at the podium. But if you feel like
August 22, 2023
Page 109
you'd be redundant or somebody summarized maybe even in a better
way than what you were about to say, you know, it keeps things
moving along, but it's certainly not a requirement.
Remember you can yield your three minutes to another speaker.
So instead of one person -- or five people all having three minutes, if
everybody yielded their time to one person, that person could have 15
minutes and might be able to make a more strong argument.
I said this this morning, some citizens are not going to get the
outcome that they hope for today, but when I speak for all my
colleagues up here, I know none of us woke up today trying to decide
on how we could do something bad for the county. Regardless of
your point of view -- and this is more of an editorial on my part. I
say it a lot at my town hall meetings -- don't measure the ability or
integrity of anyone in this room, either out in the audience or up here,
based on one decision that didn't go your way today.
And if you feel your position is the right one, when you come to
the podium, make your case. Remember, you know, if you start
your conversation about -- telling us about you've lived here for 40
years and your grandkids and, you know, Collier County's your
home, clock's still ticking. Clock's still ticking, so you might not get
to your conclusion.
So just in summary, we respect all points of view in this room,
and we hope after today you'll respect whatever the outcome is.
Lastly, just as a final reminder, please silence your cell phones.
I said that, like, four times last time, and we did have one ring, of
course.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: It was yours.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It was not mine.
So having said that, you know, we're happy citizens are here.
Every single person up here really applauds citizen engagement.
Whether we agree or disagree, it's what makes, you know, our
August 22, 2023
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country great. So let's do something great in here and have a
respectful, valuable discussion. Let's live with whatever the
outcome is. And if you don't -- if you're worried about what you
think the outcome's going to be, then come to the podium and give
us, you know, your best argument as to why you agree so strongly on
this particular topic.
But having said that, County Manager. Let's move forward.
MS. PATTERSON: Item 11B is a recommendation to -- oh,
I'm sorry. I am not on 11B. I am on 9A. I just went backwards.
Item #9A
ORDINANCE 2023-39: RECOMMENDATION TO CONSIDER AN
ORDINANCE ESTABLISHING COLLIER COUNTY AS A BILL
OF RIGHTS SANCTUARY COUNTY. (ALL DISTRICTS) -
ORDINANCE 2023-39: MOTION TO APPROVE BY
COMMISSIONER HALL; SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER
MCDANIEL – ADOPTED – 4/1 (COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS
OPPOSED)
Item 9A is a recommendation to consider an ordinance
establishing Collier County as a Bill of Rights Sanctuary County.
This is brought to the agenda by Commissioner Hall, and we'll
open up with the commissioners as your pleasure.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Well, I'm going to start
with Commissioner Hall. Sir, the floor is yours.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Thank you, Chair.
Before I get started, I would like to acknowledge my dad,
Colonel James A. Hall, right here on the front row next to Kristina. I
welcome his presence.
(Applause.)
August 22, 2023
Page 111
COMMISSIONER HALL: You know, if you don't like me, it's
his fault.
So I'd like to also give a shout-out to Commissioner McDaniel's
mom. I think that Commissioner McDaniel is dressed better than me
today, and I tried hard, so...
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well, you have help.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Yes.
So, anyway, I brought this -- I'm bringing this ordinance forward
again for the second time. And I realize it's a campaign promise of
mine. I campaigned on smaller government, less control, common
sense. And what made me run for this office was I got mad during
COVID when I saw all of the injustices brought to the people by the
federal government or by three-letter agencies that didn't even have
legislative authority.
So I made a campaign promise to bring forth a Bill of Rights
Sanctuary County to make sure that in Collier County, Florida, every
right that's inalienable, that's God-given to us, every individual is
protected. And when I read the Declaration of Independence, that is
really our role as government is specifically to secure the rights of the
people. So I'm bringing forward to ensure those God-given rights.
Things that this ordinance is not. I've read every email that's
came forth, and there's a lot of fallacy. There's a lot of good points
and a lot of nebulous points.
So what this ordinance is not, it's not a cherry-picking procedure
where we can pick and choose whatever federal law we like or don't
like to nullify it. That's not what it's about. It's not -- it's not an
ordinance that allows us to secede from Florida or to secede from the
Union as a county. I've seen that. That's not it at all. It has
nothing to do with that.
It's not for the commissioners or the Board of Commissioners or
the future Board of Commissioners to decide what's constitutional or
August 22, 2023
Page 112
what's not constitutional. It's not political.
You know, the Bible says that God is no respecter of persons,
whether you're Jew or Greek. He loves all. The Constitution is
colorblind. It's not red; it's not blue. It's true.
So what this ordinance is doing is establishing in Collier
County, by ordinance, that no matter what happens in the federal
courts or -- excuse me -- what happens from Washington, D.C., laws
or what happens in Tallahassee, as long as those laws are
constitutional or in pursuance of the Constitution, that is the supreme
law of the land.
So this is not an ordinance to go against any constitutional law
that comes forth. This is an ordinance that allows you, the people, to
be protected by anything that comes down that's unconstitutional or
what we would call an unlawful act.
The Constitution -- you don't have to be a constitutional attorney
to figure out what's constitutional or not. You know, when
it -- when it comes to -- and I'll let some of the speakers address some
of these questions that you'll have, but when it comes to whether this
is enforceable or not, it's highly enforceable. This puts the power
back to the people. The people created the states. We're
independent sovereign states of the United States of America, and
those United States of America created the federal government.
And so the federal government is not just willy-nilly the king
over the people. The people are what gives the federal government
the power to operate. And as long as it's constitutional, we're going
to yield that power. If it's not, we're going to take it back. So that's
what this ordinance is about.
And I welcome the public speakers, both for and against. We
are going to listen, like Chairman LoCastro said, and we're going to
take into consideration what everybody says. But at the end of the
day we're going to vote to either pass this ordinance or to deny it.
August 22, 2023
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And so I look forward to the discussion. I wanted you to hear my
heart behind it. We're not looking to do anything other than to
protect you.
So with that, Chairman.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Let's get started. What's
our first order here? Well, I've got Commissioner Saunders lit up, so
I'd like him to speak. Sir.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you, Commissioner
Hall, for that introduction, because I think that lays it out very
clearly, which is really one of the reasons that I have some issues
with the ordinance. I'm looking forward to hearing the public
comment and, obviously, will reserve my final decision till until the
end. But I think the issue is -- and you said this very clearly. This
protects our citizens from unconstitutional federal action.
I think the whole crux of this is, how is that determined? How
is it determined that some federal action is unconstitutional? And I
think it's important that we kind of lay that out because any court
taking a look at this is going to have to look at the legislative history
of this to really ferret out what is intended, because I don't think the
ordinance, as written, is particularly clear in that regard.
And so I would just simply ask you, in your view, how is this
going to be enforced? For example, does this designate the Sheriff
as the chief law enforcement officer for the county? And if it does,
that's fine, but I think it needs to be clear as to whether that's the
intent. If it doesn't, then how is this to be -- in your view, how is this
to be enforced and interpreted? And perhaps we need comment
from the public to ferret that out. But that's my problem; I don't see
how this can be interpreted without giving some clarity as to how it's
going to be enforced --
COMMISSIONER HALL: That's a good question.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- and who enforces it.
August 22, 2023
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CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I mean, if you want to comment,
Commissioner Hall, and then I think we should, you know, go to the
public and reserve our comments back and forth for after we hear
from the both sides.
COMMISSIONER HALL: That's a fair question, and I've
asked the question. So the other thing that this ordinance is not just
a suit fest just opening up to, you know, wounds of suit.
If I'm an individual and I feel like my constitutional rights have
been violated by any law or edict that comes down, then I have the
right to sue in civil court to determine that. Criminally, if I feel like
my rights have been violated, I have the right to go to the Sheriff and
file a report. There will be an investigation. If they feel like it's a
valid claim, it goes to the -- to the State, and it moves further.
So it's not just a, well, I don't like this, and I think that my
constitutional rights are violated and so, therefore, the Sheriff, you
need to protect me. It's not like that at all. There is a process for
that, and I'll let some of the speakers address that further.
But it's not so specific. There is some -- there is some
vagueness to it. It's more common sense than it is anything else.
For instance, how many of you would agree with the Sheriff that
arrested Rosa Parks for sitting in the back of the bus? Was that a
clear violation of her civil rights? Absolutely. You know, that's
obvious, and there are other obvious things.
When a pastor in Tampa is arrested for not closing his church
down because a three-letter agency recommended that, that's
a -- that's a violation of his civil rights. He was arrested. He spent
40 minutes in jail. And after that, suit was filed to the State for the
major violation of his civil rights, and that suit was dropped
immediately because they were going to lose horrendously. So did
that happen overnight? No, but it happened within a few weeks of
each other.
August 22, 2023
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His record was expunged. All charges were dropped. No
harm, no foul. And that pastor forgave the sheriff that arrested him,
which -- kudos to him. But, anyway, I hope that answers some of
the questions.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah, just a couple quick
comments. I think we all received that two-page analysis that you
just referred to.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Right.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: It starts off with, I have a
question for those who would oppose this Bill of Rights. Would
they agree with the police officer who arrested Rosa Parks? And it
goes on for a couple pages listing a whole lot of atrocities from the
federal government. It mentions the mass transportation and
imprisonment of more than 120 Japanese-Americans. It talks about
the Hopi Indian internment camps.
And so there's a history of here -- and I'll use the same words
that are in this thing. It says, our history is replete with heinous
national and state laws. No one can disagree with that. This is very
well written. But I think it's more of a distraction from what is really
the issue here.
I may vote against this ordinance today, I probably will, and that
doesn't mean at all that I would agree with the police officer who
arrested Rosa Parks for refusing to sit in the back of a bus. It doesn't
mean that support -- would have supported the federal action to intern
120,000 Japanese Americans.
And so I just want the public to understand and the Commission
to understand, though this is a well-written document and it's very
persuasive, I think it doesn't really address the issue which, again, is
vagueness and how is this going to be enforced. What is the role of
the Sheriff in all of this, and how is that role to be really clarified?
August 22, 2023
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For example, should we -- if we get some kind of complaint
about some federal action, should we simply direct that person to the
Sheriff's Office for filing a complaint that could be a criminal
complaint. It could be a civil complaint.
So I think that's really the issue. The issue isn't do I support
slavery? Do I support discrimination? Do I support these awful
acts of our government? It does not. But to me the issue is going to
be, how do you take this ordinance, which I think is a bit vague -- and
you admitted that's a little vague. I think we all understand that.
But for a court to enforce a criminal statute -- and that's what this
is -- there has to be some certainty as to what is the criminal
violation.
And I think a court interpreting this is going to need some
legislative intent, some legislative history behind it so a judge can say
what this really means, what was really intended.
And so I hope maybe the conversation of the audience will help
with that. Maybe our conversation will help with that. But I
wanted the record to be very clear, I don't support slavery or any of
these awful acts even though I may not vote for this ordinance.
COMMISSIONER HALL: We didn't think you did.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So we're here to hear from
the people first. I'm not naive enough to think that five people are
up here totally neutral and, you know, you already heard that we've
got at least two commissioners up here that have voiced their initial
thoughts. But I think most importantly we're here to hear from the
people. We've got plenty of people signed up for public comment.
We've got, I know, presentations from both side, so let's, with an
open mind, go in and hear your best, you know, defense, your best
support of your position, and we will hear from every single person
who has signed up to speak.
So having said that...
August 22, 2023
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MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I believe, if everyone returns,
we will have 56 speakers today. I'm going to remind the speakers
again, please queue up at both podiums so we can move this along.
Your first speaker will be Janet Hoffman, and she will be
followed by Kristina Heuser.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay.
MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you, Chair and Board. My name is
Janet Hoffman, and I would like to bring attention to Marbury versus
Madison which established the principle of judicial review; that
American courts have the power to strike down laws if they violate
the Constitution.
Federal courts can declare legislative and executive actions as
unconstitutional. So concerns about federal overreach can be
addressed in the court system.
As this ordinance will nullify federal laws that are viewed as
unconstitutional, I had to research the U.S. history of cases of
nullification. I will not bore you with all the cases that I found, but
there is one in particular that is fairly recent that I think is concerning.
In 2021, Missouri enacted SAPA, the Second Amendment
Preservation Act, and this act caused considerable confusing for law
enforcement and, in fact, 60 police chiefs supported a lawsuit against
SAPA with amicus briefs that stated that this act hindered law
enforcement's ability to defend and protect Missouri citizens.
In March of this year, a federal judge struck down this law,
ruling that it is unconstitutional, as it violates the standard that federal
law trumps state law, and it is -- the State is appealing it. So nothing
has been decided yet with that.
But I am concerned if this ordinance passes that it will
encourage lawsuits. It will become very expensive and
time-consuming, and it will further divide us. It will likely create
confusion for law enforcement, as SAPA did in Missouri. It could
August 22, 2023
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easily harm our economy and our businesses.
We are a country based on the rule of law, and we need to work
together to improve our government, not disregard it. I respectfully
urge you, as county commissioners, to vote no on the Bill of Rights
Sanctuary Ordinance. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Commissioners, your next speaker is Kristina
Heuser. She's been ceded additional time from Rae Ann Burton,
who I see, and I'm not going to say this right, Stael Dantes.
(Raises hand.)
MR. MILLER: Thank you.
So she'll have nine minutes. Due to scheduling issues, after her,
we're going to go to Sheriff Rambosk on Zoom, because I do believe
we have him now.
MS. HEUSER: Thank you.
Thank you, Commissioner Hall, for bringing this forward, once
again, and thank you, Commissioners, for being attentive.
I am Kristina Heuser, for the benefit of the record. I'm an
attorney, and my principal areas of practice are civil rights and
constitutional law, and I look forward to responding to all of the
concerns that were raised, as there is a lot of misinformation and
misunderstanding both about the ordinance and, sadly, about the
Constitution itself.
What I'm going to talk about first, though, is the ordinance itself,
what it does, what it does not do, and the legal underpinnings for the
ordinance.
And I also want to say I am the drafter of this ordinance,
although we did have other ordinances that were enacted in other
counties that we used as, like, a jumping-off point, so it's not entirely
original. But I was very careful to be sure that this ordinance was on
solid ground because I would never jeopardize either my personal or
professional reputation by bringing something to you and asking you
August 22, 2023
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to enact it as law if I thought that you-all would be in jeopardy of
being sued or something along those lines or, you know, that this
could be disparaged. Although we've heard some criticisms of the
legality of it, and I will address those in turn, I assure you that those
are not accurate.
So what this ordinance does is make it illegal for the County to
participate in carrying out any unconstitutional federal mandate,
order, or program, and that is something that has unequivocally been
upheld by the Supreme Court as within your lawful authority.
There -- in these whereas clauses at the outset of the ordinance, it lays
out where that authority comes from. It cites specific Supreme
Court cases. And there's something that I'm just going to read
briefly from Prince versus United States. This actually dealt with a
gun control measure from the federal government, so it's very
applicable to the comment that we just heard.
But the Supreme Court held in that case, the federal government
may neither issue directives requiring the states to address particular
problems nor command the states' officers or those of their political
subdivisions to administer or enforce a federal regulatory program.
It matters not whether policy-making is involved, and no
case-by-case weighing of the burdens or benefits is necessary. Such
commands are fundamentally incompatible with our constitutional
system of dual sovereignty.
So I think the language could not be clearer that the federal
government cannot conscript local governments to act in carrying out
their programs. That is clear. So this ordinance just takes it a step
further and makes it unlawful for the County to go against that
authority, in other words, to carry out the federal government
programs that it deems to be unconstitutional.
And regarding the question of the enforceability, I'll let Sheriff
Rambosk address that. But to answer it simply, it will be enforced in
August 22, 2023
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the same way as every other County ordinance that's on your books.
And as to the interpretation of what is constitutional and what is
not or what constitutes a violation of this ordinance, there will be a
judicial process. It's not as though there's just an edict from you or
me or anybody, any individual saying that this is unconstitutional.
There may be a complaint, an allegation of that, and like any other
complaint or allegation, whether it be to the Sheriff or to Code
Enforcement, it goes through an adjudicatory process, and there will
be a judge and a court that will determine if the ordinance was
violated.
As to the issue of nullification, we've heard this term thrown out
a lot. Even the responsive emails by one of the commissioners to the
public who sent emails has said, oh, well, we don't have the authority
to nullify federal law. And to that point, that may or may not be
true. I would say there are valid arguments on both sides, but the
good news is that we don't have to deal with that question here today
because this ordinance doesn't ask you to nullify anything.
Federal law is still applicable. If the federal government passes
a law that requires individuals to do something, then they are
obligated to do that unless they go to court through traditional means
and challenge it, and it's deemed to be unconstitutional.
This ordinance only prohibits the County from participating in
carrying out unconstitutional government programs which, as I just
read to you, is completely within the rights of local government.
And, in fact, it's an essential part of federalism, which is a
fundamental American principle.
I just want to briefly address some of the other
counterarguments that we've heard. I took notes at the July 25th
meeting when some people spoke against the ordinance, and I'll just
address some of those.
So I already talked about nullification. There was a statement
August 22, 2023
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that this is going to jeopardize all federal grants, including hurricane
relief. That's not true. We're not saying that you can't cooperate
with the federal government at all, just if they were requiring you to
do something that would violate the constitutional rights of Collier
County residents, then you could not participate in that. And I know
that most of you sitting up there wouldn't do that anyway, but we
don't know, you know, who will follow you in office. This is for the
future of Collier County to protect all residents, current and future
residents.
Somebody said, oh, you don't recognize federal authority.
Again, our framers set up a system of dual sovereignty. So the
federal government has authority. The state government and all of
its subdivisions have authority. The Supremacy Clause only says
that federal law is supreme to state law. If there is a conflict in
court, then federal law trumps state law. We're not -- this ordinance
does not negate or counteract that principle.
There was a statement that the resolution that was passed two
years ago was sufficient. No, it was not. A resolution is merely a
statement. It has no enforceability mechanism, and this ordinance is
enforceable, and it has penalties, and that's why it's necessary. A
resolution might sound nice but, in reality, it means nothing if the
people cannot enforce it.
It would be in violation of the Pledge of Allegiance. I proudly
said the Pledge of Allegiance this morning, so that was just silly.
Economic consequences: When people won't invest in a
lawless county. Again, you're still abiding by federal law.
Everybody in this room will still continue to abide by federal law
except that the County cannot participate in carrying out or enforcing
federal government programs or mandates that violate the
Constitution.
Commissioner Hall addressed this, but the secession from the
August 22, 2023
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Union is just more silliness. That's not happening. We love this
country. And, in fact, nullification is something that the states in the
civil rights era were trying to do because they wanted to assert that
the states were not bound by the Constitution, by the federal
constitution. So in that sense, this ordinance is actually the polar
opposite of nullification because we're saying, the federal constitution
and the rights guaranteed by it do apply to us. Please apply them,
enforce them, as to all of the individual residents of Collier County.
We welcome that.
So I'm happy to respond to other questions. We have other
speakers who will talk about the need for this ordinance. I think we
have the Sheriff on Zoom who can address the enforceability
question. And I'll just close with something he said, actually, that I
thought was very poignant and I hope will resonate with all of you.
He said when he's been asked by detractors, you know, how can you
support this ordinance? His response is, well, how can I not support
the ordinance? I'm a sworn constitutional officer. I'm committed to
upholding the Constitution, and that's all this ordinance is asking you
to do, and we ask you-all to take that step as well and vote yes.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Did you want to --
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah. Just a couple quick
questions, because you're the drafter of the ordinance --
MS. HEUSER: Sure.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- and so your opinion as to
what it means, I think, would be very helpful to any judicial review.
And you said nothing really changes -- there's a judicial process. So
if someone has a complaint that a federal program or a statute or
executive order is unconstitutional, that person will have to go
through some judicial process to determine the constitutionality of
that. How does that process get started? Do they come to the
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County, and the County files that? The County pays for it? How is
that judicial process started, and who pays for it?
MS. HEUSER: Well, just to clarify. They wouldn't be
bringing a challenge to the federal order itself. They would be
bringing a challenge to the county acting upon that unconstitutional
federal order.
And in that event, if there were a resident that perceived that the
County violated this ordinance by carrying out an unconstitutional
program of the federal government, they would make a complaint
with the Sheriff's Office if they chose to pursue the criminal penalty,
and/or they could go to Circuit Court and file a complaint there and
seek an injunction or other equitable relief. And that would be
their -- they would bear the burden of any expense associated with
that, at least initially. But as we know, when we sue, we can ask for
attorney's fees, and then the Court would determine at the end of the
case if an award of attorney's fees would be appropriate, which
usually goes to the prevailing party.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: There's a standard in Florida
for the award of attorney's fees in cases where there's no contract, and
you're more aware of this than I am. But if there's no justiciable
issue of fact, no justiciable issue of law and somebody files a
complaint with those two factors, they could be subject to having to
pay the other side's attorney's fees. Is there some similar standard
here?
So just as an example, you have the County operating in good
faith, following a federal law, enforcing a federal law or working on a
federal program that someone finds fault with, and they come to the
County and file the complaint. They go to court, and a court
determines that the program was invalid, that the County should not
continue to enforce that program and issues a restraining order.
Would the County still have to pay the attorney's fees if the County's
August 22, 2023
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acting in good faith, whereas a lawsuit that I had just described where
there's no justiciable law of fact? Clearly, the Court's going to award
attorney's fees then. Would the County be subject to attorney's fees
even though it's acting in good faith?
MS. HEUSER: I think that would be something that would be
at the discretion of the Court. Clearly, for a frivolous lawsuit, the
attorney fee burden would not be shifted to the defendant, the
County. If there is merit in the lawsuit, then it would be up to the
judge to decide if, in fact, the County -- County's conduct was
egregious and should -- they should have known not to participate in
this act, and in that case they would award attorney's fees in sort of
like a middle ground case like you're describing.
I can only guess that if the County were acting in good faith and
it was unclear if the -- whatever mandate was being followed violated
the Constitution or not, that there would not be an award of attorney's
fees. But, again, that would be at the discretion of the Court, and I
really can't answer that question.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I don't have any other
questions right now, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: All right.
Mr. Miller, proceed.
MR. MILLER: All right. I hope we've got this right. We've
been fighting with this a little bit.
Sheriff Rambosk, you are on the line. I think you're being
prompted to unmute yourself, if you haven't already. Are you there,
Sheriff?
SHERIFF RAMBOSK: Yes. Good afternoon. Can you
hear?
MR. MILLER: Yes, sir.
SHERIFF RAMBOSK: Good afternoon, Commissioners.
Kevin Rambosk, Collier County Sheriff.
August 22, 2023
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I've got a couple of comments, but what I'd like to go right to, I
think, one of the more pressing questions, and that is how we
investigate misdemeanors. You know, we just went through a fairly
lengthy session at the state level. There's probably more than 200
new laws with penalties. We are going through them trying to
determine what kind of an effect and how we will process and
investigate those.
But misdemeanors, as we investigate, are quite clear. In almost
all cases we respond to a complaint. The deputy would take a report,
an investigator would be assigned to follow up. The investigator
will interview all witnesses and collect any evidence that might be
available to them at the time. That investigative packet is then
forwarded to the State Attorney for a determination of criminal
charges. If they don't believe there's sufficient information with the
investigative evidence we've got. They may come back and ask us
to follow up, which we do. But, ultimately, we will forward that
package to the State Attorney into the court system, should she
choose to do so, for the reason of due process, I mean, which is why
we do all of this.
So from an investigative perspective, it's really relatively simple.
I mean, you know, for your members -- and this is what I really kind
of wanted to touch on a little bit. You know, you probably
remember, I'm already on the record previously for supporting this.
That really has not changed. You know, my oath and office
commits to a very solemn and sincere manner to support, protect, and
defend the Constitution. In fact, in our agency, we live with this
oath every single day, and it's relatively familiar to us, and we've
been doing that for 100 years.
We also look by our organization's mission statement that
says -- and I know I've mentioned this several times -- it's our duty to
protect the lives, property, and constitutional guarantees of all
August 22, 2023
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persons.
And I will tell you that our deputies, your deputies, have done an
amazing job with that mission, from mental health to saving hundreds
of lives just over the last several years for sudden cardiac arrest and
overdose to the lowest crime rate nationally out of 150 metropolitan
areas.
So I think our dilemma is, we don't know how there would be an
expectation of us to oppose the ordinance because of the very
elements of the oath of office and duty as law enforcement officers
that specifically include supporting, protecting, and defending the
Constitution.
And I'll leave it there for any later questions.
MR. MILLER: All right. If you don't have questions for him
now, we'll go ahead and go back to the speakers here in the room.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall has a question.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Hi, Sheriff. Thanks for being
available. This is Commissioner Hall.
So the way that you just described, your job is to protect the
constitutionality of all the Collier County citizens as well as
enforcing the law but -- not just blindly enforcing any law, but
protecting the constitutionality. I said that backwards twice just for
emphasis.
MR. MILLER: Hold on a minute. I think my Zoom people
have in advertently muted him, or he's -- well, no, he has the power to
mute and unmute himself. He's a panelist.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: He's the Sheriff.
MR. MILLER: Sheriff Rambosk. There you go. He's back.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: He knows what a mute
button is.
MR. MILLER: Sheriff, are you there?
SHERIFF RAMBOSK: Yes. In answer to your question, I
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believe that's what we swear an oath to do, and that's what we do
each and every day.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sheriff Rambosk, this is
Commissioner LoCastro. A question I have for you -- I appreciate
your comments. So I don't want to put words in your mouth, but
would -- what I'm hearing is that -- do you feel this ordinance, then,
strengthens and/or just reemphasizes your mission as the Collier
County Sheriff and what you're sworn to uphold and that it
even -- you know, could I go as far as to say that the verbiage in here
would assist you if and when, in the unlikely even possibility that
federal guidance came down that you, we, someone felt was
unconstitutional, that the verbiage in this ordinance would basically, I
guess for lack of a better term, help you do your job better? Would
that -- I don't -- that's just my summation.
So can you -- can you comment on what I -- what I said? And
if I misspoke, you know, I'm looking for your more specificity in
what -- how this ordinance helps you do your job better or reconfirms
what you already are doing but just puts it in print in a way that more
solidifies what you believe your mission is.
SHERIFF RAMBOSK: Well, I think it certainly reaffirms and
reemphasizes what we're called upon, our duty today. And, you
know, some things we're not going to know until we get to that point.
As I mentioned, there are 200 new laws out there. We're not going
to know the outcome of some of those yet.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Good afternoon, Sheriff. This
is Commissioner Kowal.
SHERIFF RAMBOSK: Good afternoon.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: You know, I got a lot of emails
and a lot of comments about this pro and con, and I think there's a big
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misunderstanding out there. You know, this is a federal document
we're talking about, you know. We're talking about preserving and
enforcing a federal document. This is not a local document. This is
a federal document. This is your bill of rights. It was given to you
by the 13 colonies that came together and developed one central
government, which was our federal government, and this was the
paperwork that came out of it.
And, you know, like in the Fourth Amendment, you know, I
think a lot of people think that we're walking away from the federal
government. If anything, we're standing with the federal
government when -- at least the document they gave us to live by.
And I know in the Fourth Amendment, you know, this doesn't
mean that if -- let's say these -- a lot of people refer to the three-letter
agencies, like the FBI or things like that. They come down, and they
have a warrant in hand, or they have probable cause for an arrest with
a warrant in hand. That does not mean it that -- you know, it says
right in the Fourth Amendment that is part of the 10 -- you know, our
bill of rights. It's in clear language, you know.
And as long as it's a law that was vetted through the legislation
and passed and then it's a law on the books, you know, that doesn't
mean you're going to ignore it. And I think a lot of people have this
misunderstanding that we're walking away and thinking that we're
creating some sort of lawless county here. It's the farthest thing
from the truth.
And I know, Sheriff -- I'm sorry I'm rambling on. But I mean,
if that came to you, before you, and the FBI walked down there with
a warrant in hand that was signed by a limited [sic] judge that was a
law that was created in the federal statute, that don't mean you're
going to deny him the right to serve that warrant, yes or no?
SHERIFF RAMBOSK: No, that's exactly correct. I mean, we
would never operate outside of the Constitution, and particularly as
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we talk about the Fourth Amendment, nor should any other law
enforcement agency in this country, because if you enter
someone's -- if there's an expectation of privacy and you enter into
somebody's residence without a court order to do so, that was
lawfully issued, we'll arrest you for burglary.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you, Sheriff.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Sheriff Rambosk, this is Burt Saunders. Just one of my -- one
of my concerns about this ordinance is what I would describe as
vagueness in the sense of how do you determine whether a federal
rule or edict of some sort is constitutional? And I know that -- I
understand your job, and you do it well, is to enforce the laws. And
if a law's unconstitutional that, obviously, means it's invalid and you
don't enforce it. But the question is, how do you determine if that
law is unconstitutional?
We just talked about a federal arrest warrant as an example, and
you indicated, yes, that's -- if it's issued by a judge, then it's a lawful
order, and you would assist in the execution of it. How do
you -- how would you determine that a federal law or order is
unconstitutional so, therefore, you won't enforce it?
Same thing with the state law: How would you determine that
a state law is unenforceable prior to it being determined by a judge
that it's unenforceable or unconstitutional? I mean, do you have that
authority to say I think this rule is invalid because it's
unconstitutional, even though that's not been determined by a court of
competent jurisdiction?
SHERIFF RAMBOSK: Well, you know, that raises the
question as to why we have such a thorough process in how we
investigate, because in some circumstances there is a lot of
investigative background that needs to go into the preparation of the
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case from the submission to the State Attorney's Office. Again, any
new legislation will require us to do probably a little bit more
background, which we believe is correct and should be necessary to
ensure that we build the best case possible to forward to the state
attorney, but in the end it's going to be the Court that makes some of
the decisions, I believe, that you're looking for an answer to. It
wouldn't necessarily be us. We can believe that we have probable
cause to make a case, but sometimes we don't know the answer to
that case for years.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Okay. But you don't
determine the validity of a particular statute. That is left to the
judicial branch of the government, not executive branch. So you
wouldn't make a determination, well, I'm not going to enforce a
particular statute because I believe it's not valid. You would enforce
it until you're advised by the right authority that it's not constitutional,
is that incorrect?
SHERIFF RAMBOSK: No. I think in general that would be
correct; however, if we believed and our legal staff told us that it is in
their opinion that it is unconstitutional and we had the right evidence,
court cases, and information to support that, then we would take the
appropriate action.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Would that appropriate
action be going to the judge to rule in terms of whether that statute is
constitutional? I mean, I'm just trying to get at do you -- can you
make that determination? And I think you're saying, sort of, no, you
can't, but maybe you can.
SHERIFF RAMBOSK: Well, I -- yeah. In answer to -- sorry,
pardon me. You know, we do that each and every day. We look at
a case, we determine whether we believe it fits within the criteria of
the law, and I think even with a constitutional complaint we would
make that assessment, and if we believe it rose to that level, we may
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have to take it to court.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: All right.
SHERIFF RAMBOSK: I'm not even sure that any of us know
that at this point, but we would take our -- we would take our action.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah. I appreciate that.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: It's Commissioner Kowal again.
Maybe I can try to clear some of this up, too, because I know, in
listening to Attorney Heuser, you know -- and what the ordinance
does and the body of the ordinance is is really dictating what we do
as a body up here, the five commissioners as a government that
makes -- you know, that carry out certain decisions over our people
that affect their lives on a daily basis. And I think we're mixing
criminal statute with policy. We're mixing criminal statute with
executive order. Things that didn't pass the litmus test through a
legislative body, it was eradicated [sic], and then made into a law.
I think what this ordinance is saying -- and it's exactly what, I
think, you're going at, Commissioner Saunders, is this ordinance
actually says that if somebody comes to us -- and which probable
cause -- as a law enforcement officer for 28 years, probable cause is
51 percent. Fifty-one percent, when a reasonable person believes a
crime was committed or about to be committed that meets some sort
of statute that's already in place, a law that's already been
eradicated -- ratified into a law, which we're talking about, I think,
two different things here with this particular ordinance.
This ordinance is holding us, as a body, to look at things that
were never ratified as a law and just blindly following it because it
comes down from upstairs to us. And a perfect example -- and I
think a lot of this came forward because of the pandemic, and I think
a lot of things happened locally that affected 405,000 citizens, and
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that was when people were told they had to put masks on, people
were told to close their businesses down, and none of those were
connected to a ratified law that went through Congress and was ever
ratified into law to be enforced as a law upon the people and the
citizens. And whatever reason, it came down as policies from
agencies like CDC and things like that.
And I think this ordinance, if it was in place at that time, it
would have made us look at it a little differently, that CDC officials
or health officials were saying this has to happen. And when you
say it has to happen, you're violating people's personal rights that
choose. And I think this ordinance would have -- at that time would
have made the decisions of this board a little differently because they
would have had something to hold them to making a decision, not
just following a rule.
And so I don't want to mix this with criminal law and policy or
executive order or opinions from health departments and things like
that. That's when we're going to test the lividity [sic] of a
constitutional order that comes from this body. And, I mean, I just
want to make this clear. I think that's what this is doing. That's
what I'm getting at this point. It's not getting -- if somebody comes
down there, warrant in hand with probable cause, and it's a statute, it's
a law, the Sheriff is going to do his job, and we should sit back and
watch him do that job.
So I don't know how much clearer I could say that.
(Applause.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Very well said, Commissioner.
I just want to take it back to a simpler measure. This is an
ordinance that has the people's back to protect your rights, and we
want to establish it. Nothing changes. Absolutely nothing changes
with this ordinance unless something changes. And if something
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changes, you've got an ordinance in play to allow the County to have
your back with your constitutional rights.
(Applause.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Mr. Miller.
MR. MILLER: That takes us next to Kim Timm, and she will
be followed by Stephen Friend.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Is Stephen out here? If you can
queue up right here.
MS. TIMM: Good afternoon. My name is Kim Timm, and I
am speaking on behalf of State Representative Bob Rommel in
District 81.
I'm here today to express my support for the ordinance
establishing Collier County as a Bill of Rights Sanctuary County.
In my position as a state representative, I will continue to push
back against all federal government overreach in matters including
ESG, central digital currency, and medical mandates that are
unconstitutional federal government measures.
Thank you.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Thank you, Kim.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Stephen Friend. He'll be
followed by Alfie Oakes. Stephen has been ceded additional time
from Sandy Doyle.
(Raises hand.)
MR. MILLER: Okay. And Dr. Joseph Doyle. They're both
back there. And so he will have a total of nine minutes.
MR. FRIEND: Thank you. My name is Stephen Friend, and
I'm an FBI whistleblower. I was a special agent for the FBI for eight
and a half years.
In August of 2022, I made protected whistleblower disclosures
regarding the FBI's over-abuse of American civil rights and
dangerous activities jeopardizing public safety.
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I'm here today to speak in support of a Bill of Rights Sanctuary
County ordinance for Collier County. I devoted my career to public
safety as a law enforcement officer at local, state, and federal levels.
I have a unique perspective, which I would like to share with the
Board of Commissioners as you consider this measure.
During his recent testimony before Congress, FBI director, Chris
Wray, stated, the FBI now leads more than 750 task forces
nationwide made up of more than 6,000 state and local task force
officers for more than 1,800 different state and local agencies. Each
of those TFOs represents an officer, a deputy, or an investigator that a
local police chief, sheriff, or state superintendent was willing to send
our way.
I will add an exclamation point to Director Wray's statement
with some anecdotal evidence. My last duty stationed in Daytona
Beach is an office of eight special agents. We were responsible for
policing federal criminal violations in Lake, Flagler, Putnam, and a
Volusia Counties. This represents over one million Americans.
That quantity of people is simply impossible to adequately police
with a single-digit number of criminal investigators. As a result, we
relied heavily upon cooperation from local law enforcement agencies
within all of these jurisdictions.
I'm sharing this information with the Board of Commissioners to
hammer home the magnitude of your decision to pass this ordinance
and protect your constituents' civil rights against federal overreach.
Federal agencies, such as the FBI, absolutely cannot fulfill their
mandates without robust cooperation from the local government.
You are not powerless to protect your citizens from an out-of-control
weaponized FBI nor any other agency.
A recent nationwide poll concluded that two out of every three
Americans believe the FBI is politically weaponized. Citizens of
Collier County are right to fear their freedoms are at risk against this
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agency.
Here are some highlights from the past two weeks. Director
Wray lied when he testified to Congress about an intelligence report
about radical traditional Catholics. The report was a political
grievance list intended to create the predicate for a national security
investigation against Catholic Americans.
Director Wray testified, the report was limited to FBI
Richmond; however, it's now clear the FBI personnel in Los Angeles
and Portland contributed.
San Francisco Assistant Special Agent in Charge Elvis Chan
lied under oath to Congress about his contact with social media
companies concerning censoring American citizens.
Philadelphia Special Agent in Charge Jacqueline Maguire was
elevated to the executive assistant director of the FBI training
division. Maguire approved a large-scale arrest operation against
Mark Houck when the FBI and the Department of Justice saw fit to
charge him with violating the FACE Act. Houck pledged to
surrender to the FBI in the event of criminal charges, nevertheless,
Jacqueline Maguire deployed a dozen armed personal -- personnel to
arrest him.
These improprieties are inexcusable coming from high-ranking
executives within America's premier law enforcement agency;
however, FBI malfeasance is hardly limited to misconduct by a few
bad actors. The problems within the agency are lenient as
Americans' constitutional rights are sacrificed upon the altars of
government bureaucracy, personal ambition, politicization, and
mission creep.
Here's a few examples. The FBI uses quotas. This prioritizes
inappropriate investigations and tools to retrieve arbitrary stats. The
FBI has a quota for intelligence products, new cases, arrests, search
warrants, polygraph exams, wiretaps, subpoenas, surveillance
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operations, et cetera, et cetera. Quantity before quality.
The citizens of Collier County elect their sheriff to bring the
crime down, but his compatriots within the FBI are incentivized to
bring the crime stats up. Worst of all, FBI leaders earn bonus checks
between 30- and $50,000 for meeting these quotas.
The FBI national security branch is expanding out of control.
Today the FBI Counterterrorism Division identifies antigovernment
extremism as one of its top priorities.
As recently as last year, the FBI spotlighted a historical
American symbol, such as the Betsy Ross flag, as an indicator of
potential radicalization.
Personally, I was directed to open up an ISIS investigation on an
individual because she was in an Internet chat room with somebody.
Person No. 2 went to a different chat room and had a conversation
with Person No. 3, Person No. 3 went to a different chat room and
had a conversation with Person No. 4, and Person No. 4 put a picture
of ISIS.
The FBI colludes with Big Tech to gather intelligence on
Americans, censor political speech, and target citizens for malicious
prosecution.
Reporting last September highlighted the FBI's Operation
Bronze Griffin as an unconstitutional method for Facebook and
Instagram to provide private user information and messages to the
FBI without a search warrant, without a subpoena, and without the
users' consent.
The FBI is militarized and creating a risk to the public safety.
The FBI has wide latitude to deploy its SWAT teams. I was a
SWAT guy for five years. Regardless of the American Second
Amendment rights, if a subject owns a firearm or has a large dog, the
FBI can send SWAT to raid his house.
FBI informant protocols are broken and abusive. Recent
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high-profile cases exposed the FBI's misuse of informants during
domestic terrorism cases to entrap vulnerable citizens.
In 2020, FBI informants and undercover agents provided
training, equipment, and transportation to a group of men in
Michigan. The FBI eagerly entrapped and criminally charged these
men for conspiring to kidnap Governor Gretchen Whitmer.
As an FBI SWAT team member, I was part of the arrest
operation for this case. We were told these members were
sophisticated, capable, tactical operators who were prepared to
engage us in a gun fight. In reality, the FBI identified innocent
Americans who were frustrated by Governor Whitmer's COVID
policies and insnared them in a criminal scheme which none were
mentally, financially, or ideologically predisposed to commit.
These are a few of the systemic problems that exist within the
FBI. The train is -- the train of usurpations is hardly new and
impacts citizens' rights regardless of our political persuasion.
In 2021, the Intercept wrote about an incident that happened
with the FBI 17 years ago. Quote, the biggest Al-Qaeda plot the FBI
claimed to have foiled in the years following the 911 attacks involved
no weapons, no plot, and no Al-Qaeda. Instead, the vague,
implausible threat of a group of construction workers in Florida,
including -- to blow up U.S. buildings, including Chicago's Sear's
Tower, was mostly the making of the FBI, whose undercover
operatives sought out the men, promised them money, and coached
them over months to implicate themselves in a conspiracy to commit
violent acts they never actually intended or had the means to carry
out.
We're all blessed to live in America. I often hear America's not
a country, but it's an idea. I'd like to proffer something more.
America is not an idea. It's an action verb. We all have to do
America. That requires a willingness to step out of your comfort
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zone and to activate. Being American is not a leisure pursuit.
I'll conclude with a heartfelt appeal to this Collier County Board
of Commissioners. The citizens seated before you have stepped out
of their comfort zone and demanded action. Your constituents have
reasonable concerns about the conduct of their United States
government.
I've itemized a number of abuses to impel you to act. The
citizens of Collier County beseech this Board of Commissioners to
serve as a bulwark against weaponized, politicized federal overreach.
Now it's your turn to uphold your oaths, defend your constituents,
and pass this ordinance.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Alfie Oakes. He'll be
followed by Michelle Albergo. Mr. Oakes has been ceded three
additional minutes from Jay Kohlhagen.
MR. KOHLHAGEN: Right here.
MR. MILLER: Thank you, sir.
MR. OAKES: I may not need the three minutes, but --
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You've got mine, Alfie.
MR. OAKES: Thank you.
I think that you really have to have your head in the sand to not
realize what's going on in our country right now with many of the
three-letter agencies within our government. Almost everything that
I see coming from our federal government right now is
unconstitutional. We're watching what's happening at the border. If
you don't think that's unconstitutional, then I don't think that you
understand the Constitution.
And, you know, we see what's going on here. If you've been
watching any of the congressional hearings, brave men like this
gentleman that just came up here as a whistleblower, there's hundreds
of them. There's not -- it's not a couple. There's hundreds of them,
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people that are standing up against what we now see as a tyrannical
government. And it's not a maybe. It's here.
And we do live in a special place, Naples, Florida. I call it the
tip of the spear of really conservative America, like the place that
many of the people here -- most of our -- most of the people that live
in this county, they've moved here because of that.
I remember when I took the stand at Seed to Table that we
weren't going to mask and we weren't going to play with these
unconstitutional acts, and we were going to resist against it. I
remember the first day the Naples Daily News said, oh, this
store -- Seed to Table, no one's going move to Naples. That's what
they said. They said -- it's in the paper. You can look it up. They
said, we're super-spreaders. Nobody's going to move to Naples.
Well, that's not really what happened, right?
So many, many people have moved from all of these tyrannical
cities to this great place of Collier County, to the great state of
Florida, and they want protection. And you folks are representatives
of the people, and the vast majority of the people in this county, I
believe, are thinking that they want their constitutional rights to be
protected, and this is just one further step.
We're asking to give the Sheriff, you know, a little bit of help,
even more power. The Sheriff wields a tremendous amount of
power. And we're asking you folks to support it.
And I understand, Burt, that you might not want to vote yes on
this but, you know, we as the -- as the electorate also have the choice
not to vote for you when it comes back up again. So we want you to
listen to us.
These are -- these are -- you know, many people may not realize
it. There's 400,000 people that have died in Ukraine; 400,000 people
died. Our media's not saying that, but that's putting our country at a
very -- at a big risk right now of the brink of World War III.
August 22, 2023
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And I'm not -- you know, I'm not one of these guys that thinks
the world's coming to an end, but this is serious right now. And in
the next year, in these next six months, this next year, we're likely to
face times and scenarios that we've never even dreamed of before,
and that's why we need to preserve our constitution, and this Bill of
Rights Sanctuary Ordinance is exactly what we need here in Collier
County.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Michelle Albergo. She'll
be followed by Keith Flaugh.
MS. ALBERGO: Hi. Good afternoon. I'm Michelle
Albergo.
I was asked to give a statement on behalf of Cary Scott, who is
the general manager of the Alamo range. I also want to go on record
personally that I do support this ordinance. And yes, Burt, I'm in
your district.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you all for gathering here today to
discuss a topic that lies at the very core of American society, the
Second Amendment of the United States Constitution. In the next
three minutes I will express my unwavering support for this crucial
amendment and shed light on why our Founding Fathers deemed it
necessary to secure our fundamental right to bear arms.
The Second Amendment, often referred to as the cornerstone of
our liberties, not only guarantees the right to bear arms but also
serves as the foundation that holds the entire Bill of Rights together.
It is important to fully grasp the significance of the Bill of Rights and
the essential role it plays in safeguarding our individual freedom.
The Bill of Rights, comprised of the first 10 amendments to the
Constitution, was added to ensure the protection of our fundamental
rights and to address the concerns raised during the ratification
process. It enshrines our most cherished liberties, such as freedom
August 22, 2023
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of speech, religion, and assembly, the right to a fair trial, and the
protection against unseasonal searches and seizures among others.
However, it is crucial to recognize that the Bill of Rights is not a
mere collection of independent amendments. It is a unified
document with each amendment reinforcing and supporting the
others. The Second Amendment, in particular, holds a special place
in this framework, as it acts as the linchpin that keeps the entire
structure intact.
Our Founding Fathers understood that, and armed citizenry is
essential to maintaining the balance of power between the
government and its people. They recognized that without the ability
to defend ourselves, our families, and our property, our other rights
would be vulnerable to encroachment by those in positions of
authority.
The Second Amendment, therefore, plays a vital role in
upholding the principles of the Bill of Rights. It ensures that the
government remains accountable to the people, as an armed citizenry
acts as a deterrent against potential abuses of power.
By preserving the right to bear arms, we safeguard our ability to
exercise the other rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
History has shown us time and time again that when
governments disarm their populations, the erosion of basic freedoms
follows closely behind. The Second Amendment stands as a
powerful reminder that an armed individual and its citizenry is crucial
to the preservation of our democratic values and individual liberties.
In conclusion, the Second Amendment is not only a
constitutional right, but it also -- it is also the cornerstone that holds
the Bill of Rights together. It acts as a safeguard for our other
cherished liberties, ensuring that our government remains
accountable to the people it serves.
Let us never forget the importance of the Bill of Rights and the
August 22, 2023
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vital role the Second Amendment plays in protecting our fundamental
freedoms. By upholding and cherishing this right, we secure the
legacy of liberty and justice that defines the United States of
America.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Keith Flaugh. He will be
followed by Miles Rocky Scofield.
MR. FLAUGH: Good afternoon, Board.
As the CEO and on behalf of Florida Citizens Alliance of over
260,000-plus supporters, including 35,000 or more here in Collier
County. We thank Commissioner Chris Hall for bringing this
ordinance proposal back before the Commission, and we urge your
support.
The legal and binding principles of the U.S. Constitution are
being challenged as never before. Our founders gave us a
constitutional republic and, as you'll recall, Benjamin Franklin said
when asked what the founders had accomplished, and I quote, a
republic, if you can keep it. They gave us a republican form of
government -- that's republican with a small r -- based on
Judeo-Christian values and individual freedoms that must be
protected at every level of government.
As you know, FLCA, Florida Citizens Alliance, focuses on K
through 12 education. This ordinance sends a resounding message
of recommitment by each of you to protect our constitution and Bill
of Rights at the county level.
This is a powerful message not only to your voting constituents
but, in my opinion, more importantly, to every child in Collier
County, that we have a constitutional republic, and that you, as our
elected officials, will recommit to defending our individual rights
guaranteed by our founders and the many who have lost their lives
defending that freedom through our history.
I add one other comment. I know Sheriff Mack, chairman of
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the CSPOA. He was the principal -- one of the two principals in
the -- in the U.S. versus Prince that Ms. Heuser talked to you about.
If you have any doubt about what that court case did, I urge you to
reread Scalia's majority comments.
So in conclusion, we are urge you to support and thank you for
your commitment to defend our individual rights through this
ordinance.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Miles Rocky Scofield,
and he will be followed by Carol DiPaolo.
MR. SCOFIELD: Good afternoon, Commissioners. Excuse
me. Rocky Scofield, for the record. I'm not going to give you any
legal or FBI advice today. I have none.
But first thing, I just wanted to reiterate one thing that
Commissioner Hall said, and that this is -- this is not a right or left
issue. This is not Republican versus Democrat. This is about
everybody. This is everyone who lives in the United States and just
cares about this country and wants to preserve our constitution. You
know, we live in the best county and the best state in the country, and
there's a big reason for that.
I don't know if you guys saw this in the mail. Probably
everybody did. They got one. And it was put out by the Sheriff's
Department celebrating our Centennial founding of Collier County.
And every month the Sheriff's Department honors a sheriff and their
families for the service over the last hundred years; my grandfather
being the second sheriff and longest serving one in Collier County.
So this is -- this is one of the big -- this is one of the big reasons
why people live here.
And I'll read across the top. Right here it says, the number one
safest place to live, U.S., World -- U.S. News and World Report.
This is a big reason why we're here and why we're here today for this
ordinance. And I'll read Sheriff Rambosk's quote real quickly on the
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cover page. It says, Naples and Collier County are recognized again
and again for our quality of life.
Over the past century, the Collier County Sheriff's Office has
built a solid foundation on safety. With the partnership of
businesses and organizations, the support of our community, and the
hard work of the best deputies in the nation, we remain committed to
keeping Collier County amongst the safest counties in Florida.
We're just extremely proud to have Sheriff Rambosk as our sheriff
that strongly supports our constitutional rights, as you heard earlier.
First of all, I place my trust in God and then family, and then I
want my trust placed in our sheriff and our county commissioners
and our elected officials. That's -- that's how -- that's the place I
want to live in and I do live in.
You know, everyone knows, and you've heard earlier what a
perilous times we live in and the overreach by the federal
government.
So I'll leave you with a quote from Thomas Jefferson. It says,
experience has shown that even under the best forms of government,
those entrusted with power, in time and by slow operations, perverted
it into tyranny.
So I want to thank you, Commissioners, for listening to all this
today, and I hope you'll vote to adopt this resolution.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders.
MR. SCOFIELD: -- or, excuse me, ordinance. I caught
myself.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Just a couple quick
comments. First of all, that article that was submitted by the
Sheriff's Department indicating that Collier County is the safest
county --
MR. SCOFIELD: Right. One of them.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah, one of the safest
August 22, 2023
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counties in the country, that's not an accident and, obviously, we have
a sheriff that does a great job. But I will say that your five
commissioners, for a long period of time, have fully supported law
enforcement. We've all said --
MR. SCOFIELD: Right.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- from time to time, the
number-one most important function of government is to protect its
citizens from crime and violence. If you don't feel safe in your
home, it doesn't matter how nice the beaches are, it doesn't matter
how nice the weather is if you don't have a good quality of life.
And so I've been on this board now for six years, actually going
on seven years, and the Sheriff's budget has always been approved.
He's always gotten everything that he needed. I think even
Commissioner McDaniel at one point said, hey, if you want another
helicopter --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Get two.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: -- get another one.
And so I just want to emphasize that the Sheriff has done a
wonderful job, and your commission has provided him the resources
to do that, and we would never say no to the Sheriff. If it's Kevin
Rambosk, if it's Don Hunter, whoever the Sheriff is, has always been
able to get what they need to keep our citizens safe.
And you and I may disagree a little bit on this ordinance. I'm
likely not to vote for it, not because I don't want to protect the
constitutional rights of our citizens, but there's two things: One is, I
don't want to send the message that if you've got a problem with
the -- with a federal issue you come to us and we can solve it for you,
because we can't.
We've had -- recently there was a complaint about someone
didn't like complying with an OSHA requirement, and they were
writing to me saying, what do we do about this? I said, well, you
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know, we're not the ones that can decide whether an OSHA
requirement is applicable to your thing. We don't get involved with
OSHA. But that's the kind of message that I'm concerned about
sending.
I 100 percent support the need to protect our citizens'
constitutional rights. The issue for me is how do you determine
when something is a violation of that right? Now, everybody's said
so far that you go to court. Well, that's kind of the process that you
go through right now, but maybe now we're opening up the
jurisdiction to a different court. But still -- that's my concern, not
that I don't want to protect our constitutional rights, not that I don't
want to keep our citizens safe, but I'm just not sure that this vehicle is
clear enough to make that a reality. So I just wanted you to know
that.
Also, I know you and I had a telephone conversation, and I had
indicated that the Sheriff was not supportive of this, that he was
going to remain neutral. And I apologize for telling you that, but at
the time that was what I had been advised. The Sheriff had -- he and
I had a bit of a conversation, and he was tending to be neutral on it,
and that's what I reported to you, so that was not --
MR. SCOFIELD: And he called me and told me about that and
said he may have been a little ambiguous, but he clarified it with me.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah, and he called me to
clarify as well. So I didn't want you to go away thinking that I had
misled you in any way.
MR. SCOFIELD: No, I knew. So thank you.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you.
MR. SCOFIELD: Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Carol DiPaola. She'll be
followed by James Rosenberger.
Carol's been ceded additional time from Eric Troe, T-r-o-e.
August 22, 2023
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Eric?
(No response.)
MR. MILLER: And Emily Dalto.
MS. DALTO: Here.
MR. MILLER: All right. So you'll have six minutes. Well,
Eric Troe wasn't here. Six minutes.
MS. DiPAOLA: Yeah, yeah, he's here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOICE: He was just here a second
ago.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: He just went to the bathroom.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Go ahead, ma'am.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: You're good, Carol.
MS. DiPAOLA: Okay. I want to, first of all, thank all of you
commissioners for allowing me this time to stand before you, once
again, on this topic.
I'm going to be reading two statements. One would be from
myself and one will be from KrisAnne Hall, the
constitutional -- leading constitutional attorney, which some of you
just basically touched on.
This is my statement. I'm not new to this podium addressing
this very same topic. I stood before you in March of 2021, I believe,
impressing on you the need for you to pass the Bill of Rights
Sanctuary Ordinance. Instead, the community was given a
resolution.
But this is a new day with a different Board of Commissioners.
You will hear passionate pleas to have this passed along with people
angry and adamantly against it. Emotions are not a good guide to
making your decision, but facts are.
Why do we need the Bill of Rights Sanctuary Ordinance? We
need it because the government has and will at times overstep the Bill
of Rights, which is the law of the land. Just a few years ago, they
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have demanded our churches be closed, our people be masked, our
bodies be assaulted with testing swabs and vaccinations. They were
all violations of our First Amendment rights.
Our Second Amendment rights are compromised with
regulations upon regulations. Some Florida citizens have been
dragged out of their homes and unrightly denied their Sixth
Amendment rights to a quick and fair trial as they rot in their prison
cells in Washington, D.C. They are the J6ers. These are just some
of the reasons why we need the Bill of Rights Sanctuary Ordinance to
be adopted.
Little by little our constitution is being circumvented and our
freedoms tramples upon. Our forefathers had the insight and
discernment to know that the federal government had the capabilities
to step outside of the Constitution; therefore, they drafted these
amendments to keep the government in check.
The government has yielded to many three-letter agencies and
NGOs that undermine our constitution, hence the need for this
ordinance.
Weigh the facts. Use reason and logic, which God has given
us, and understand that your decision impacts every Collier County
resident.
Now I'm going to read a statement by KrisAnne Hall, our lead
constitutional attorney. I'm going to start at the beginning -- at the
middle of it. Our history is replete with heinous national state laws.
For those who would oppose the Bill of Rights, would they agree
with the police officer who arrested Rosa Parks for refusing to sit in
the back of the bus or the mass transportation and imprisonment of
more than 1,000 -- 120,000 Japanese Americans without due process
in 1942?
Would they support the enforcement of the Federal Fugitive
Slave Act? Would they have upheld the Supreme Court's opinion
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and the laws that were subsequently justified by it when the Supreme
Court declared Mr. Dred Scott to be property and not a man?
Rejection of the tyrannical and oppressive laws and the defense
of individual natural rights was the basis upon which the country was
founded. That is why our founders demanded a Bill of Rights as a
condition for ratifying the U.S. Constitution. It is why our
Declaration of Independence states that -- that to secure these rights,
governments are instituted among men deriving their just powers
from the consent of the governed.
That is why Article VI, Clause 2, of the Constitution declares
that only laws made in pursuance to the Constitution are supreme,
and any law that is not made in pursuance of the constitution is not
binding on the states.
It is why Article I of the Florida Constitution declares in 27
separate sections that all natural persons have inalienable rights,
among which are the right to enjoy and defend life and liberty, to
pursue happiness, to be rewarded for industry, and to acquire,
possess, and protect property.
It is why Article I, Section 9, of the Florida Constitution
establishes that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or
property without due process of law.
And, finally, why every person who serves in Florida
government makes an oath to support, protect, and defend both the
U.S. and Florida Constitutions.
When a law or government act is authorized by our constitutions
and made pursuant to delegated authority, every person in civilized
society has a duty to comply, as our constitutions are the supreme law
of the land. Refusing to comply with laws and orders that are
inconsistent or contrary to our constitutions cannot be an act of
lawlessness. On the contrary, when laws or orders are not
authorized or made inconsistent with our constitutions, it is they who
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are violating the supreme law of the land, and refusal to comply with
such law and edicts becomes the enforcement of the supreme law.
This principle of truth is why Martin Luther King, Jr., observed
that one has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just
laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust
laws.
To claim that the people lack the authority to judge the
unconstitutionality of laws made by the government they created is to
contradict everything those who founded America fought to establish.
Such a philosophy can only support a government where the people
are reduced to the miserable state of subjects under their rulers and
not a government of the people, by the people, for the people.
My final question would be: In consideration of all that has
been said above, how can a people of a state claim that refusal to
enforce federal laws that are not authorized by the Constitution is
unlawful when the state we live in has legalized medical marijuana
while the federal government still considers possession, cultivation,
and sale of marijuana a federal crime?
The people of Florida have already decided some federal laws
are not binding upon the states. Now it's time to understand that
truth applies to all natural rights of the people, not just medical
marijuana.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is James Rosenberger.
He'll be followed by Daniel Cook.
MR. ROSENBERGER: Good afternoon, Commissioners. I'd
like to personally thank Commissioner Hall for bringing this forward.
Now I'm going to read my prepared statement.
My first attempt to secure a sanctuary county ordinance
protecting our right to bear arms took place in March of 2021.
Being a political neophyte, I was unaware of the hurdles that would
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be placed in my path. I persevered.
Ultimately, it was Florida Statute 70.33 that would bring the
Second Amendment Preservation Act to a halt. The lawyers had
won.
As with any good legal strategy, Plan B would have to be
devised. Local attorney, Kristina Heuser, was tasked to lead the
charge.
Our attempt was to create a Collier County Bill of Rights
Sanctuary Ordinance. Many minds were brought together. They
were as follows: Our County Attorney, Jeffrey Klatzkow; our
Collier County Sheriff, Kevin Rambosk, and his legal staff; State
Representative Bob Rommel; Florida Citizens Alliance Director,
Keith Flaugh; State Committeeman, Alfie Oakes; and our own
congressman, Byron Donalds. This was truly a winning lineup.
These prominent individuals representing Collier County would
surely find a solution to the dilemma. After all, more than 7,000 of
your constituents signed a petition of support. Additionally, these
signatures were collected in a mere two weeks.
The bill was drafted, and it was bullet proof. I was in shock to
find -- I was in shock as to why it hadn't passed. Only two
commissioners had the foresight and understanding of what we were
accomplishing. Kristina Heuser has worked tirelessly with many
others in an effort to move this ordinance forward.
Will we fail again? I stand here today asking for your support
of the Collier County Bill of Rights Sanctuary Ordinance. It's time
to stand up for our constitution, it's time to stand up for our bill of
rights, it's time to stand up for our National Anthem but, most of all,
it's time to stand up for the families of the over 400,000 veterans
lying in Arlington National Cemetery. For without them, we would
not be able to stand here today for what is right. God bless America.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Dan Cook, and he'll be
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followed by Katherine Cunningham.
MR. COOK: Good afternoon, Commissioners.
I'd like to start by reading the Preamble to the Bill of Rights. It
says, the conventions of a number of the states, having at the time of
their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire in order to prevent
misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and
restrictive clauses should be added.
I emphasize the term "restrictive clauses." I view the purpose
of the Bill of Rights as a list of multiple things. It's more than just
10 items. It's a list of a lot of restrictive clauses restricting the
federal government from violating our freedom of speech, our right
to bear arms, our due process.
So I ask, is your right of free speech more or less important than
your right to bear arms? Is your right to be free from unreasonable
searches and seizures more important than your rights of due
process?
What about the Tenth Amendment? How would the restrictions
of the Tenth Amendment be enforced? The Tenth Amendment says,
the power is not delegated to the United States by the Constitution
nor prohibited by it to the states -- are reserved to the states
respectively or to the people. I'm going to reread that, because the
first part of that is extremely important. The power is not delegated
to the United States by the Constitution. I think that begs the
question, what powers are delegated to the United States by the
Constitution?
You'll have to look primarily in Article I, Section 8, for a
specific list of about 17 or 18 powers that are delegated to the United
States.
And so another aspect that we should consider, which
Commissioner Hall and a couple other speakers mentioned, too, is the
Supremacy Clause. So Article VI of the Constitution is the
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Supremacy Clause which says, "This constitution, and the laws of the
United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all
treaties made or which shall be made, under the authority of the
United States, shall be the supreme law of the land."
So I also would argue that the only laws that come out of
Washington, D.C., that should be considered the law of the land are
laws in pursuance thereof of the Constitution, including the Tenth
Amendment, including the restrictions of the Tenth Amendment.
So I support a yes vote on this ordinance. If -- the plandemic
was referenced and the actions in 2020 when the beaches were closed
down and the parks and playgrounds were closed down. I think, as a
result of this trickledown tyranny, if this ordinance was in place, I
would have sought injunctive relief regarding the closures of the
beaches and the playgrounds. And so I hope that this passes today
because I will seek that injunctive relief should it happen again.
Thanks.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Katherine Cunningham.
She'll be followed by Susan Cone. Ms. Cunningham's been ceded
additional time from Heather Hart.
MS. CUNNINGHAM: She had to leave.
MR. MILLER: What about Suzan Wharton?
(Raises hand.)
MR. MILLER: You'll have six minutes.
MS. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you.
My name's Katherine Cunningham, and I'm a volunteer with
Moms Demand Action. In addition to my volunteer activities, I also
work as a trust and estates lawyer, and I'm currently taking unpaid
vacation time from my job in order to make this statement. In all
honesty, I wish I were at work today.
On behalf of Moms Demand Action, I'm here to oppose this
sanctuary county ordinance that was introduced by Commissioner
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Hall.
As you know, this ordinance was originally introduced two
years ago as the Second Amendment Protection Act and then brought
in to the entire Bill of Rights, but the original focus was to prevent
the enforcement of federal gun laws in Collier County. The same
ordinance that is before you today was rejected by the Board of
County Commissioners in July 2021. That year the Board did pass a
resolution to support the Bill of Rights, which we did not oppose.
In our view, the resolution and the ordinance are both
unnecessary because the Bill of Rights already applies to every
county in the United States, including Collier County.
So some will ask, what is the impact if this ordinance passes
today? In all honesty, probably not much will change, and most
people who live in Collier County may never even hear about the
sanctuary county ordinance.
Even if this bill passes, the Sheriff is unlikely to ignore valid
federal lawsuits, and the state attorney's unlikely to support any effort
to overturn or ignore a federal law or, if they do, the courts are likely
to strike down such actions as unconstitutional.
However, attempting to nullify federal gun laws undermines the
rule of law and sends a false message to criminals that federal gun
laws may not be enforced. Also, for the small percentage of Collier
County residents who are paying close attention to this bill and
support an extreme interpretation of the Second Amendment, there
may be some serious consequences. For example, in Virginia,
during debates over local sanctuary resolutions, people believed that
the resolutions had swept away all gun laws, and some people who'd
been convicted of felonies happily declared that they had gotten their
gun rights back. In other words, criminals thought they were no
longer restricted from carrying firearms because of this bill. That's
not what it does. I hope everyone knows that.
August 22, 2023
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In Kansas, after the state passed a nullification bill, two Kansas
men were prosecuted for illegally making and possessing firearm
accessories that they falsely believed were exempt from federal
regulation. An appeals court rejected their argument that they were
protected under Kansas' nullification law. In other words, otherwise
law-abiding citizens became criminals because of this bill.
Finally, it seems like the primary impact of this bill will be to
increase litigation against the County. It's hard to see why you
would want to do that.
Also, I would note that Sheriff Rambosk and State's Attorney
Fox will not be here forever, and I worry that having this sanctuary
county ordinance on the books could be a bigger problem in the
future, for example, if the next sheriff is a member of an extremist
group like the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association.
So in conclusion, more than 120 Americans are shot and killed
on average every single day, and guns have become the leading cause
of death among children and teens in our country. There is
overwhelming bipartisan support for gun safety law to reduce this
death toll; whereas, this bill seeks to block the will of the majority
and to bypass the courts' interpretation of the constitution to the
detriment of public safety.
Please vote no on the sanctuary county bill. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Susan Cone. She'll be
followed by George Dondanville. Excuse me. Ms. Cone has been
ceded additional time from Kathleen Muniz, and she is here. You'll
have six minutes.
MS. CONE: Yes. And George is not here. He had to go to
work.
MR. MILLER: George is not here. So she will be followed by
Reverend Tony Fisher. Thank you.
MS. CONE: Hi. My name is Susan Cone, and I am puzzled
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how so many speakers were here in support of the ordinance and
were able to sign up this morning when they weren't even here this
morning and how they magically knew how to be here at 1:30 when
the rest of us were here at 8:30 this morning, and many people
couldn't stay, and so -- they have had to go to work or do whatever.
So I'd like to just point that out. I find it curious.
This is the fourth time that I've come to speak in opposition of
the so-called Bill of Rights Sanctuary Ordinance. And in case you
are assuming that anyone who opposes it must be a liberal socialist
Democrat or fill in the blank, whatever. I thought I would take 30
seconds of my time to tell you who I am.
But first, I want to comment on an important leadership quality:
Listening. Some of you have demonstrated that you're willing to
listen, learn, and perhaps even change your mind about this issue, but
some of you have made it perfectly clear that you have absolutely no
interest in listening to the citizens of this county. You have
campaign promises to keep.
One of you even went so far as to sigh in July and complain that
you would probably hear from thousands of people and that you
would have to wear your flame suit. I'm sorry, but this doesn't sound
like someone that's receptive to listening or learning.
So -- but please try, please listen with the intent to learn, and
have the courage to change your minds.
So about me, Collier County has been my home for 48 years.
I'm a mom and a grandmother. My three children were born at
Naples Community Hospital. They graduated from Naples High
School. I was a single mother. I worked really hard, and raised my
children to be really kind and successful people with no financial
support.
I registered to vote in Collier County in 1976 as, guess what, a
Republican, which brings me to why I'm here today. This proposed
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ordinance seeks to ignore federal gun laws. And Attorney Heuser
kept using the term "federal programs." But read the ordinance. It
says "laws." It chooses to ignore federal gun laws and to not support
them if they're deemed unconstitutional.
It would undermine the judicial process and the will of the
voters. Attempting to nullify federal gun laws is unconstitutional
and, as Katherine said, it sends a false message to criminals that
federal gun laws may not be enforced, and it would send a confusing
message to law-abiding gun owners and may expose them to criminal
liability if they mistakenly believe that the County could prevent
federal gun law from being enforced.
This proposed ordinance is full of contradictions and omissions,
so I'd like to point out some. The second whereas in the ordinance
mentions the, quote, "Fundamental American Doctrine of Separation
of Powers," closed quote. But this ordinance seeks to throw
separation of powers out the window by undermining the role of the
judicial branch of government. The big question is, who will decide
if a federal law is unconstitutional? Who will decide if a federal law
is unconstitutional? That's the role of the courts, not the County
Commission, not the Sheriff.
In the eighth whereas in the ordinance, it refers to
Chapter 125.01 of the Florida Statutes which describes the powers
and duties of County government.
Subsections T and W are combined in the ordinance to read,
quote, specifically authorizes counties to adopt ordinances and
resolutions necessary for the exercise of its powers and perform any
other acts not inconsistent with the law, which acts are in the
common interest of the people of the county, and exercise all powers
and privileges not specifically prohibited by law, closed quote.
And, furthermore, those subsections appear under Section 1 of
the Florida Statutes which reads, quote, the legislative and governing
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body of a county shall have the power to carry on county government
to the extent not inconsistent with general or specific law.
So in other words, the ordinance says it's okay to ignore federal
laws because County initials have the power to pass ordinances that
are not inconsistent with the law. Yeah, it's a little confusing.
There's another name for counties that pass an ordinance like
this -- and, by the way, Collier would have the embarrassing
distinction of being the first county in Florida that's called a lawless
county.
In addition, it is interesting that the drafters of this ordinance
chose to completely ignore incorporating reference to Chapter 30.15
of the Florida Statutes which describes the powers, duties, and
obligations of sheriffs. And, by the way, sheriffs are known as law
enforcement officers. Sheriffs are part of the executive branch of
government, not the judicial branch of government.
Anyhow, Section (1)(a) reads that sheriffs shall, quote, execute
all powers of the Supreme, circuit, and county Courts, closed quote.
Not one of the powers listed remotely speaks to interpretation of the
Constitution.
So in closing, please vote no on this politically motivated and
unconstitutional ordinance.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Okay. Your next speaker is Reverend Tony
Fisher, and he will be followed by Jane Schlechtweg.
REVEREND FISHER: Good afternoon, Commissioners.
Thank you for this opportunity to speak. It's good to see all of you.
My name is Tony Fisher. I serve the Unitary Universalists
Congregation of Greater Naples. One of the primary principles of
Unitarian Universalists is that we affirm and promote the right of
conscience and the use of the democratic process in our
congregations and in society at large.
August 22, 2023
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Therefore, we honor both the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
We hold them high in our steam, and we believe in due process, due
process that has been built up around the Constitution and around the
Bill of Rights over the past 230 years.
You, as individuals, and you as a Board of County
Commissioners have all the rights you need under law that you are
trying to pass with this ordinance. You have the right as individuals
and as a board to challenge laws that are put forward by the federal
government or by the state government.
The question is, what is the motivation for this particular
document? And I urge you to consider in your hearts whether it is
partisan or not. Most of the speakers who have been here before me
have been speaking from somewhat of a partisan view, but it's up to
each of you to consider whether you're speaking from a partisan
position or from a position of a county commissioner elected by the
population of this county to serve this county.
Your job is to serve and support the rights of every individual
here. Rights that, in many cases in this county and across the state
of Florida, have been challenged by Florida law.
So I urge you to think clearly about this. You have all the
rights you need that are being brought forth by this ordinance. You
don't need it, and it's divisive. So I urge you to vote no.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Jane Schlechtweg. She'll
be followed by Alan Keller.
MS. SCHLECHTWEG: Thank you.
Good afternoon, County Commissioners. My name is Jane
Schlechtweg. I am a resident of Collier County, and I would like to
address today the uselessness of this proposed ordinance.
In addition to the Supreme Court's history of the ruling against
nullification of federal law by state and local officials, the Tenth
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Amendment to the Constitution includes the anti-commandeering
doctrine that already prohibits the federal government from
commandeering state personnel or resources for federal purposes.
The federal government is constitutionally prohibited from
requiring states to use their personal [sic] or resources to enforce
federal laws or implement federal programs. State and local
governments cannot directly block federal agents from enforcing
federal laws or implementing federal programs, but they do have to
cooperate with the feds in any way.
For instance, a local sheriff cannot block an ATF agent from
enforcing a federal gun law, but the FA -- excuse me -- the ATF
cannot force the Sheriff's Office to participate in the enforcement
effort. The U.S. Supreme Court is in power to assess
constitutionality, not local county commissioners.
Article VI, Paragraph 2, of the U.S. Constitution is commonly
referred to as the Supremacy Clause. It establishes that a federal
constitution and federal law generally takes precedence over state
issues and even laws duly passed via Congress and signed by the
President when they can be.
And here's the important part, a case can go through the judicial
system all the way to the Supreme Court. So if you don't like a
federal law, you can take it to court, and you can take it all the way to
the Supreme Court. That's important because that's our democratic
checks and balances in action.
Further, County employees have no way of knowing which
federal laws will be considered unconstitutional. They will live in
constant fear of being sued, fined, and jailed simply for doing their
jobs. This chilling atmosphere will make it harder to hire and retain
workers at a time when we are already facing countywide staffing
shortages.
The attorney said that we need this ordinance because it offers
August 22, 2023
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penalties, but I saw no penalties in the reading of this ordinance.
Are they financial? Are they jail time? I don't know.
Finally, the Constitution and our judicial system have overseen
questions of American rights for over 200 years, making this
sanctuary proposal entirely unnecessary. You said today that you
didn't start your day doing anything that would be bad for this county.
I encourage you to vote against the proposed ordinance. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Alan Keller, and he will
be followed by Jerry Rutherford.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: We will take a break after this
speaker here.
MR. MILLER: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sir.
MR. KELLER: History has somehow been dragged into this
debate, in my view, with many historical errors.
The drafters of the Constitution reviewed their experiences with
the tyranny to the king and parliament. They noted that in spite of
the tyranny, between 20 and 35 percent of all Colonists at the time
remained loyal to the tyrannist king and parliament, and they
pondered the failures of the Articles of Confederation. Then they
took pen in hand and drafted the Constitution. They included a bill
of rights. They emphasized the Bill of Rights, but they also
anticipated problems in interpretation in those bills of rights. They
anticipated that, and they created a judicial branch of government,
which for 246 years has been the body charged with constitutional
interpretation.
Now we have before the Commission an effort to pass at least
some of that constitutional decision-making to the Commission and
the Sheriff in a way that I, after reading it about eight times, still don't
have completely clear. I'm sorry. Maybe I'm dense, but that
ordinance just makes it sound like you people are assuming the
August 22, 2023
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interpretive role and the judicial role that has served this country so
well.
I was going to say more on that topic, but I think I'd like to close
by saying that this has been one of the most curious dog's breakfast of
arguments I've ever heard in my life. I mean, we're mixing criminal
law with -- with actions by agencies as an -- as an outflow from
legislation. It just is -- it's the strangest mix I almost could imagine.
And somehow this ordinance is going to pull us through all that?
I have my sincere doubts.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: We'll break until 3:30.
(A brief recess was had from 3:15 p.m. to 3:30 p.m.)
MS. PATTERSON: Chair, you have a live mic.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. If everybody could take
their seats, we'll get started on time.
Mr. Miller.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is going to be Jerry
Rutherford, and he'll be followed by Erika Donalds.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Erika's not here.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Oh, no. She's right there.
She did make it back.
COMMISSIONER HALL: She come back in? Oh, good.
MR. RUTHERFORD: Good afternoon, Commissioners.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sir, if you could pull the
microphone toward you a little bit more.
MR. RUTHERFORD: All right.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you.
MR. RUTHERFORD: Thank you for this opportunity to speak.
I hope to show the need for this ordinance.
Communism, socialism, Marxisms are anti-American, anti-God
ideologies.
August 22, 2023
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In 1958, W. Cleon Skousen wrote the book, "The Naked
Communist." While working at the FBI, he found the 45 goals of
the communist agenda to destroy America's constitution.
Unfortunately, they have completed all but one of them.
The goals have been completed, and the goals were posted in the
congressional record in 1963. They got all excited about it about
that time, and then they went back to sleep.
Thomas Jefferson -- you know, we need to know the communist
agenda because if we're ignorant of it, we'll not know how to defeat
it. Thompson Jefferson said, if a nation expected to be ignorant and
free in a civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.
One of the goals of the agenda is to capture one or more of the
political parties. When the FBI report came out on Joseph
McCarthy, they found that he was 95 percent correct on those he
called communists in the government.
Another goal was to destroy our constitution. Then the goal
after that, get control of the schools and use them as transmission
belts for socialist/communist doctrine.
Another goal is to create the impression that violence and
insurrection are legitimate agents of American tradition. Think
about that. That students and special interest groups should rise up
and use a force to secure economic, political, and special problems.
Schools across the nation are being used to promote these ideologies.
I'm working hard now to try to propagate what these ideologies
are all about and what they'll do to us. If you haven't seen it, your
eyes have been closed.
I've identified a number of them to our school board. We need
to realize that we're in a position here where it wasn't the case 50, 60
years ago when I was coming up in school. If we don't stand up
against these ideologies, specifically communism, because the
ideologies have come from the communist agenda -- if I could read
August 22, 2023
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those to the schools for you right now -- and I don't have time -- you
would realize how well they have saturated our schools and our
nation, because schools are where all the rest of it's going to come
from.
Lincoln said, the philosophy of the classroom in one generation
will be the philosophy of the government in the next generation, and
that's what we have. I believe we need something like this --
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir. Sir, if you can
sum up -- you're out of time, but if you can sum up. Thank you.
MR. RUTHERFORD: I believe I'd like to see you-all vote for
this. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Erika Donalds. She'll be
followed by John Meo.
MS. DONALDS: Good afternoon. I'm glad I was able to
make it back after being here this morning.
I just want to thank you-all for bringing this back after two
years, Commissioner Hall, and for the support, Commissioner
McDaniel, that you and Commissioner LoCastro gave to this a couple
of years ago.
Not much has changed in those last two years. The ordinance
has not changed very much. My husband was here two years ago to
speak in support of this. The Sheriff also spoke in support and gave
some of -- many of the same comments that he gave earlier today, but
what has changed, thankfully, is some much-needed turnover on this
board. Having lived here for 20 years, I've watched many iterations
of this county commission, and I've watched them not prioritize the
rights and liberties and, really, opinions of many of the citizens of
Collier County, including myself.
But I'm really proud of the Board that is here today and the
opinions, the efforts, and the courage that has been displayed by
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many of you over the past several months, including bringing back
this ordinance, which is controversial.
Going back to what hasn't changed are some of the criticisms of
this ordinance. We heard it two years ago that we're trying to nullify
federal law, and nothing could be further from the case, as has
already been said. I don't think there's anyone who could have
drafted and defended this ordinance better than Kristina Heuser.
She's done an excellent job, and she did an excellent job explaining
and defending it earlier today, and I would just echo all of her
comments as well.
But the other thing that we've seen over the past two years is the
continual weaponization of our federal government, infringement of
our constitutional rights and, thankfully, the courage of American
citizens to stand upon for those rights and liberties here at home and
expect that our elected representatives will do the same, including our
sheriff and including each one of you.
And so what we are looking for, what I am looking for, is
leadership, not to look to other counties to see if they've done it yet
and how it's worked out, but what are we going to do as Collier
County? How are we going to lead and empower our sheriff who
said both two years ago and now that he would want to bring this to
the State to allow other counties to copy what we have done because
we are leaders and we, the citizens of Collier County, are standing
behind you, the majority of this board, to stand up for our
constitutional rights and pass this amendment and this ordinance.
So I appreciate your support. Thank you for your service.
And I hope that you will vote yes. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is John Meo. He'll be
followed by Kathi Meo.
MR. MEO: Yes. This is John Meo. It says I've got -- oh, you
just clicked me. I had one minute and 30 seconds to go. That's it.
August 22, 2023
Page 166
Okay. So thank you, Commissioners. And I have really no
prepared remarks. They're just things that I've listened to for the last
couple of hours. And I would say that we all should be in agreement
that the United States of America is in a constitutional crisis. If you
don't believe that, you're on the low end of the scale.
One of the things that causes America to have the crisis is the
integrity of our leaders. Now, I'm not accusing anyone on this dais
of anything. I'm just saying there seems to be a lack of integrity
coming specifically from Washington, D.C.
And when we talk about this resolution, as Commissioner
Kowal clearly stated, we're not talking about overriding some federal
laws, but everything that's occurred with the pandemic was not a law.
Those were mandates placed on us from various, I will call them,
unelected agencies such as mask mandates, such as, quote, jabs, such
as closing businesses. Those were not -- and for the people that are
against the resolution, I'd like to make it clear, those were not laws.
Those were mandates handed down from Washington to our county
and forced upon our citizens.
And to your point, Commissioner Saunders, again, we're not
asking anyone to violate any federal law. What we are asking is to
strengthen -- strengthen the opportunities of our commission and our
county to say no when these mandates are about to come down again,
which will probably happen within the next month or so.
So I'd like to just end this -- my time with a quote. I know
you've heard a lot of quotes from the Founding Fathers, but this is a
really pertinent quote to the discussion here, and this quote is from
Benjamin Franklin, and what it says is, those who give up essential
liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety.
Thank you, Commissioners.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Kathi Meo, and she will
August 22, 2023
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be followed by Amy Perwien.
MS. MEO: Good afternoon, Commissioners. My name is
Kathi Meo. I'm the secretary of the Collier County Republican
Executive Committee, but I will speak today as a concerned Collier
resident, parent, and grandparent.
I want to thank you, Commissioner Hall, for bringing forth this
ordinance, and for -- all of you for hearing We the People.
I'd also like to thank Commissioner LoCastro and Kowal for
their service to the country and the military. I do that every time I
come up here.
When you took your oaths, you said you solemnly swear you
would support and defend the Constitution of the United States
against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and that you would bear
truth, faith, and allegiance to the same.
As you probably know, my son's a staff sergeant in the Army
serving in South Korea -- getting a little scary over there right
now -- and he is doing it, as I'm sure you both did, to fight for our
freedom.
And all of you have taken an oath, not foreign and domestic, but
as our elected officials, to protect and make decisions for the
best -- the best interests, I should say, best interests of our county,
and you've also sworn an oath for the Florida and the United States
Constitution.
So I'd like to play a brief clip. It's just 50 seconds of Dr. Meryl
Nass who is speaking at the European parliament. Dr. Nass had
been an internal medical physician for over 42 years with expertise in
Anthrax and bioterrorism. She's listed in Who's Who in America
and Who's Who in the World for her accomplishments, which
included the first scientific analysis of Anthrax and bioterrorism. So
she is very well-respected in her field.
And let's play the clip.
August 22, 2023
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(A video was played as follows:)
DR. NASS: W.H.O. The idea is to create a whole new set of
laws and ignore the existing human rights laws and other laws under
the pretext of pandemic preparedness and the bio security agenda.
The W.H.O. is developing through all its nations, but with the
W.H.O. director in the United States in charge, a pandemic treaty and
amendments to the existing International Health Regulations that will
remove the human rights protections currently embedded in the IHRs
will enforce surveillance censorship, get rid of freedom of speech,
require governments to sensor and only push a single narrative.
(The video concluded.)
MS. MEO: So this is a perfect example of why we need this
ordinance. Dr. Nass explained a part of what their plan is, and it's
not a conspiracy theory. These things are happening.
Commissioner LoCastro, you mentioned earlier Maui. I believe
that was part of their plan, but that's a whole nother subject.
We can't just call out these entities and then just sit back and
watch them carry out their plan of stripping us of our rights. We
need to offer solutions, so that's exactly what this is. It's a huge step
to protect us, and they have all the groundwork and the plans laid out.
And as my husband just said, particularly in the very near future,
although lockdowns/mask mandates are coming down the pike.
So we are -- we have a clear opportunity here to establish Collier
County as a bill of rights sanctuary and to send a loud and clear
message to Tallahassee, Washington, D.C., and hopefully the whole
world that We the People are not going to give up God-given
inalienable rights that easily.
We are the land of the Free because of the brave. I'm asking
you to be brave today and vote yes for the ordinance. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Amy Perwien -- I hope
I'm saying that right -- and she'll be followed by Chantel Scherer.
August 22, 2023
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MS. PERWIEN: You did well.
I am a resident of Collier County. Multiple members of my
family have served in the military and took an oath to support and
defend the U.S. Constitution, just as you Mr. LoCastro and
Mr. Kowal did as well. In fact, all who serve and protect the
country, military or not, take an oath to support and defend our U.S.
Constitution.
In case you have forgotten, you made this oath when you took
public office. I remind you of this oath and hope that you take it
seriously today.
Raising your right hand, you said the following: I do solemnly
swear to affirm -- or affirm that I will support, protect, and defend the
Constitution and the government of the United States and of the state
of Florida; that I'm duly qualified to hold office under the
Constitution of the state; and that I will and -- that I will well and
faithfully perform the duties of a Collier County Commissioner, on
which I'm now about to enter, so help me God.
In this oath, you swore you would support, protect, and defend
our constitution. We teach our Collier County students about the
Constitution and this great nation. We teach them about the
brilliance of the founders when they developed a system of checks
and balances. We teach them that, by definition, the U.S.
Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and that is in the
Supremacy Clause, Article VI, Paragraph 2.
If you support this Bill of Rights Sanctuary Ordinance, you are
making it allowable to violate the Constitution. This is un-American
and offensive to those who take the oath seriously and consider
themselves actual patriots.
The arbiter of constitutionality is not the Collier County Board
of Commissioners, nor is it the Sheriff. According to our laws, the
appropriate challenge to the constitutionality of a law or executive
August 22, 2023
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order is through the legal system, the courts, and the Supreme Court,
in particular, are the arbiter of the laws -- of a law's constitutionality.
Even our Collier students know this.
If you respect and value our constitution, please vote no on this
ordinance. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Chantel Scherer.
AUDIENCE: She is not here --
MR. MILLER: She's not here.
Reverend Dr. Sharon Harris-Ewing, and she will be followed by
Don Braswell.
MR. BRASWELL: I'm -- my points have been --
MR. MILLER: Thank you, sir. Then the reverend will be
followed by Libby Bramson. She had to leave.
Hold on just a second, ma'am.
Diane P. Moore?
(Raises hand.)
MR. MILLER: You will be the next speaker.
Please, go ahead, ma'am.
REVEREND HARRIS-EWING: Thank you.
Thank you, Commissioners, for this opportunity to express
strong opposition to the proposed Bill of Rights Sanctuary Ordinance.
My name is Sharon Harris-Ewing. I am a member of the
Steering Committee of the Interfaith Alliance of Southwest Florida,
and I am speaking on behalf of that organization.
Specifically stated in our mission is promoting policies that
protect both religion and democracy and uniting diverse voices to
challenge extremism. Based on what I've heard so far, the proposed
ordinance is unnecessary because everyone involved, including you,
are already working faithfully to uphold the Constitution. This
ordinance is an unconstitutional, antigovernment policy that threatens
democracy. There are already appropriate democratic processes in
August 22, 2023
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place to challenge federal regulations that you deem unconstitutional.
But rather than follow those processes, the proposed ordinance
seeks to avoid the legislative process and short-circuit the entire
judicial system by declaring that the county sheriff, based on his duty
to enforce county ordinances, shall become the final arbiter of what is
and is not constitutional, thereby ceding authority to those who have
neither the standing nor appropriate training in constitutional law.
Contrary to what has been said, what is constitutional and what
is not is not just common sense. It is something that is carefully
determined through many levels of the court system, as others have
said.
This is, indeed, an attempt to reactivate the nullification doctrine
that maintains -- that states or, in this case, the county, rather than the
federal courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court, are the ultimate
interpreters of the extent of the powers of the federal government.
The nullification doctrine has been repeatedly rejected at every level.
This ordinance failed once before because the Board of Collier
County Commissioners had the wisdom to say no. Please reject it
again. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Diane P. Moore, and she'll
be followed by Omar del Pozo.
MS. MOORE: Good afternoon. I'm Diane Preston Moore,
and I'm the president of the League of Woman Voters of Collier
County.
The League believes deeply in the individual liberties
established in the U.S. Constitution and in the Bill of Rights. These
documents are the bedrock of our democracy. And if the proposed
ordinance simply affirmed the Bill of Rights, I wouldn't be here
today, but it doesn't do that. Instead, it contradicts constitutional
principles, and we cannot support the ordinance.
Besides the nullification issue that's already been addressed by
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other speakers, the ordinance is not necessary. If you, as
commissioners, did nothing today, the Bill of Rights would still apply
to all Collier County citizens. Those citizens would still have their
constitutional rights and recourse through the courts if those rights
are infringed.
The Bill of Rights doesn't stand alone. It must be read as part
of the Constitution. When our forefathers drafted the Constitution,
they established the power to determine that a federal law is
unconstitutional, but they gave that power not to local officials, not to
state courts, but to federal courts.
Under Article III, only federal courts have the power to interpret
the Constitution, and only the Supreme Court has the final authority
to declare a law unconstitutional.
The League is concerned that this ordinance actually flies in the
face of the Constitution. The ordinance requires local officials to
disregard the laws of the United States if that law is unconstitutional.
As Commissioner Saunders stated, the key question is, who
decides whether a law is a unconstitutional? Does the local official?
The County Manager? The Sheriff? The County Commission?
What happens if you disagree with each other? If local officials
were free to decide what laws are unconstitutional, the result would
be absurd. There would be hundreds of different interpretations of
the Constitution.
The League of Woman Voters supports good governance, and
enacting this ordinance, which is identical to the failed ordinance
proposed two years ago, is not good governance.
The County Commission has important work to do. Enacting a
vague and, ironically, unconstitutional ordinance is a distraction from
your good work.
The League respectfully asks that you vote no. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Omar del -- is it Poro or
August 22, 2023
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Pozo, sir?
MR. del POZO: Pozo.
MR. MILLER: Pozo, I'm sorry.
And he'll be followed by Pamela Cunningham.
MR. del POZO: Good afternoon. Thank you, first of all, for
allowing me to be here talking all the commissioners, thank you.
First of all, I want to congratulate all the commissioners for you
are hard work. You work tireless in behalf of people.
I strongly encourage you to approve this bill, this ordinance,
because in this way, people could have through -- before the law, the
possibility to deal with anything of this -- to deal, even to stop or
fight against things the federal government to impose any ideological
and tyrannical agenda on people.
When I said before the law, I said that the law or an ordinance
recognize and protect the natural rights of people. In this
scenario -- the first scenario where this indicates that this -- or if you
do not approve, this will happen. In other scenario, if this
ordinance -- or you do not approve it, what will happen is that the
government could use what is (unintelligible) through the law,
through the law. We don't forget that.
Through the law means that the government has the possibility
to make its own interpretation of the law or an ordinance. And you
see it, like in Cuba, North Korea, or other countries, to impose any
tyrannical, ideological agenda on people. So where we talk about
before the law, we're talking about freedom. We aren't talking
through the law, we are talking about tyranny.
Again, I strongly encourage you to approve this ordinance, this
law. This way you can show the people that you are on the side as
the people.
God bless you, God bless all the people in this room, and God
bless America.
August 22, 2023
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MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Pamela Cunningham.
She'll be followed by Joanne Huskey.
MS. CUNNINGHAM: Good afternoon, Commissioners. My
name is Pamela Cunningham. I'm a Christian, a citizen of America
and of Collier County, a retired physician, a wife, and a mother.
I can add little, if anything, to what has already been stated by
some of the brilliant legal minds and grassroots organizers in the
room.
So the purpose of me speaking today is simply to voice citizen
support for the ordinance and to be a reflection of We the People.
All of you have served our country in at least one capacity, and we
appreciate you and your service.
As well-educated, strong public servants, you know that our
founders envisioned times well beyond their era. They knew that a
time would come when our federal leaders would attempt significant
government overreach. In preparation for this time, the founders
enshrined our God-given rights in our nation’s founding documents.
Our bill of rights, specifically the Tenth Amendment, protects us as
citizens at the local and state levels.
Many of the issues today that the federal government is passing
legislation on, or regulations over, actually fall under your
constitutional authority as outlined in our founding documents.
In voting yes on today's proposed ordinance, you are reaffirming
and putting into action the authority vested in you by our founders to
meet the challenges of times like these.
Some may shy away from a yes vote on this issue due to
concerns over litigation or retribution by higher levels of power;
however, in doing what is right under our founding documents, your
goodness will prevail.
You are our local representatives. We voted for you, and we
trust in your judgment.
August 22, 2023
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I urge you to vote yes on the proposed ordinance. Thank you,
and God bless.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Joanne Huskey. She will
be followed by Dan Sperduto.
MS. HUSKEY: Good afternoon, Commissioners. This is a
very important conversation that we've been having here today.
I am certain that all of you gentlemen, and everybody in this
room, considers themselves good Americans. You don't call
yourself Collierites. You call yourselves Americans. And as
citizen of the United States of America, we are protected by the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights. All of us here are already
protected by the Constitution --
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Ma'am.
MS. HUSKEY: -- and the Bill of Rights.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Ma'am, you're just speaking to us,
not to the crowd.
MS. HUSKEY: All right. I'll talk to everyone. Sorry.
So we already have all of these rights. This ordinance is not
necessary.
I believe that on January -- July 13th of 2021, this very
commission passed a resolution in which you pledged to -- your
allegiance to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights of the United
States. Why, then -- why would this county or this commission deny
the sanctity of the rights we already have and create some kind of a
rogue county with its own vague laws that we cannot even decide
today who is determining them?
As you all very well know and have heard at your last hearing of
this topic and heard today, the nullification doctrine has been tried by
counties and states over and over throughout our history, and it is a
nullification. It has been proven time and again, even by the
Supreme Court several times, that the Article III of the Constitution
August 22, 2023
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states very clearly, very clearly, that the federal government has
ultimate and exclusive power to interpret the Constitution.
And there -- and as the Supremacy Clause, that many people
have mentioned today as well, states, that the federal law supersedes
that of states and of smaller jurisdictions like counties. That's the
law. It's already stated.
And we have a judicial system. If you don't agree with what
comes down from the federal government, there is a system by which
you can contest it. It works. We know it works.
What if Lee County or Broward County decided that they didn't
want to pay federal taxes or they didn't want to follow federal law
and somebody in their county was going to decide the laws? We
would be horrified. There would be chaos in this region.
And I would think that most people who look at our county right
now may feel the same way, and people who are going to hear about
this in the country are going to look at this county and think, what
kind of a county is this that doesn't follow the law of the land?
You are elected to d a job and address issues that the people in
this county care about, like sea level rise and public safety and
affordable housing and, okay, pickleball. But do your job.
This is a political statement. I'm sorry, Commissioner Hall, but
this is a political statement, and we don't need it.
So as good Americans, please, as you did once before, I urge
you to please vote for We the People. There are many people in
this -- that are not in this room, perhaps, who are against this
ordinance, and I am one of them. Please vote no.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Dan Sperduto. He'll be
followed by David Schlereth.
MR. SPERDUTO: Okay. Thank you. Dan Sperduto here,
and I speak in support of this ordinance. And do I get four minutes
like the woman before me? I was just kidding.
August 22, 2023
Page 177
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: No. As a matter of fact,
two.
MR. SPERDUTO: All right. Fair enough. Fair enough.
Anyway, I come from a family of patriots, you know, and
veterans. My father, my son, my grandson, and two brothers and,
like a lot of people in this room, you know, we love our country and
we swore an oath.
And so what we have found is that the rights found in the -- in
our bill of rights are sacred, and they're supposed to be sacred. And
over the past few years, our federal government has proven itself to
be corrupt, and for anybody to think that we can count on the federal
government to be passing proper dictates, they have their head in the
sand somewhere. But I don't see it that way, as evidenced by the
FBI guy -- I'd like to shake his hand, but he left. The
whistleblowers, they're coming out in the droves exposing the
government.
So we love our country, but what's happened to our country has
gone -- is very sad, and that's what this ordinance is to protect us
against.
So whether it's in regard to illegal immigration, forced face
diapers, preventing churches from opening, and much more, the
federal government has gone beyond their scope of duties as
delineated in the Constitution.
All power comes from We the People. We have seen what
happens out of our Marxist Washington, D.C., administration. We
should have a balance of powers between the three branches of
government. We should have that. We should have equal justice
under the law. We should have that, but we don't. We don't have
any of these.
Therefore, it is up to the states and local governments to be that
check and balance. Local and state governments need to stand
August 22, 2023
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strongly against government overreach and tyranny.
Governor DeSantis has set an example for this with his actions
against forced vaccinations and illegal aliens. My brother worked
for Johnson & Johnson; forced to get the jab or lose his job. Now he
has heart conditions, right? So many people. All over the place
that's happening. So DeSantis stood up to that, so I applaud him for
that.
He also has effectively opposed the rogue federal government
by sending their illegal aliens back to the Soros-backed open-border
crowd in the blue states. I applaud him for that.
I believe the proposed ordinance will act as a check and balance
against the federal government by providing consequences to
individuals at the local level who go along with actions that violate
the God-given natural rights of people.
With that, I'm just going to implore you to vote yes. Enough
has been said from the other folks, but thank you.
MR. MILLER: All right, Commissioners. We move into the
final 10. Your next speaker is David Schlereth, and he will be
followed by Martha Kelly.
MR. SCHLERETH: Hi. I'd like to thank the Board of
Commissioners for allowing me to speak today. Thank you very
much.
I'm a Naples resident, and I applaud you for having the temerity
to bring this proposed ordinance up again for discussion, and I would
encourage you to vote in favor of it.
We're a nation of laws, yes, and the Constitution. You know, I
keep coming -- we come back to the Second Amendment a lot as
being one of the Bill of Rights, and, you know, recently, with the
passage of New York State -- you guys should be familiar with
this -- New York State Rifle & Pistol Association versus Bruen. It
just passed; the great, big Second Amendment case that many people
August 22, 2023
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in the Second Amendment community have been waiting for for
decades.
Clarence Thomas gave a broad reaffirmation to the Second
Amendment. Specifically stated in there, proper cause or good
cause or having a requirement for somebody to fulfill a cause to
prove that they should be allowed to carry a firearm. He said it was
completely unconstitutional. He also said it was unconstitutional to
declare everywhere a "sensitive place" where you can't carry. He
also said you can't use arbitrary criteria like good moral character.
Who determines that?
So this big case came out in favor of the Second Amendment.
Eight days later -- eight days later, Governor Hochul and the New
York Legislature passed the Concealed Carry Improvement Act
which made a large portion of the state a "sensitive place." Did
exactly, exactly what Clarence Thomas said was unconstitutional in
his ruling eight days after it came out.
What are the people in New York State going to do? That's
going to go through the courts again for another decade? Two
decades? I like to think something like this proposed ordinance is
another check and balance that we desperately need to stop this
overreach.
Thank you very much for your time. Have a great day.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Martha Kelly. She'll be
followed on Zoom by Kate Tardif.
MS. KELLY: Hi, everybody.
I want to thank all of the commissioners for even hearing this
and, quite frankly, it's upsetting that we are even at a point in our
country where it would be necessary for us to have this discussion,
and it is. And the mere fact that we are having this discussion
shows, to me -- it is why I am supporting this Bill of Rights
ordinance.
August 22, 2023
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We've -- all of you -- all of us as children learned about the
Constitution, and we sort of knew it rote. It was something we
memorized. We didn't think much about it. We took for granted
the rights that our constitution provided.
And our Founding Fathers wrote this near-perfect document to
rule millions -- hundreds of millions of people, protecting their
freedoms from tyranny. And the reason they were able to do it is
based on thousands of years of history of other rule by men.
And while we have this document, the Constitution, the
enforcement -- and when I use the word "men," I mean mankind. It
is up to men to uphold the Constitution. It's up to men to protect this
country; mankind. And we see very clearly that the federal
government -- and, by the way, the government -- we keep -- the
federal government, the federal government. The government isn't a
deity. The federal government is made up of men, just the way our
local government is made up of mankind. Please know I include
women in this.
And you know what? Men can be corrupted, and men -- the
same things that ran mankind thousands of years ago run them now,
and that's what we're facing.
So while we are very fortunate to be here in Collier County
protected by a great sheriff, by the very people that are -- there isn't
anyone in here that isn't [sic] wrong for believing what they believe,
but we are in a situation where our government has turned against us,
as far as I'm concerned, the federal government, the people -- the
people running it. And until we can right that ship -- and I don't
know how we're going to do it because this is many years in the
making -- we need the extra protection.
And Commissioner Kowal said it perfectly. This is upholding
our constitution. This is giving an opportunity to the citizens and the
good people representing us to have an extra layer of protection.
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So I stand for it. I don't stand in opposition -- everybody has a
right to believe it.
But just one more thing, if -- I think I'm right. If we're right, the
ones that want it, the people that are against it will be grateful that
you passed it. And if we are wrong and you pass it, their lives won't
change at all. So that's all.
Thank you for the extra minute.
MR. MILLER: On Zoom, your next speaker is Kate Tardif,
and then she will be followed by Jonathan Hullihan.
Let's see. Kate, are you there? I think you have the ability to
unmute yourself. There you are, Kate. You have three minutes.
MS. TARDIF: Can you hear me?
MR. MILLER: Yes, ma'am. You have three minutes.
MS. TARDIF: Oh, great, sorry.
Pardon me. Oops. Let me get back to my place. Sorry, sorry.
Let's see. There.
Thank you, Commissioners, for your service to Collier County.
Wouldn't it be lovely if Collier County were more like Mayberry
R.F.D.? Sure, there were some whacky characters, but leadership
emphasized long vision, wisdom, and good old-fashioned common
sense. Like you, they made governance look easy.
I speak today hoping you, our elected commissioners, recall
lessons from your civics classes and draw wisdom and guidance from
our bill of rights and our constitution. You're the guardians of our
individual and group freedoms, and when we hired you through our
votes, we expected you would not fail us and America.
This ordinance fights our constitution. It fights our individual
and collective rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It
defies our constitution and Bill of Rights insofar as it positions itself
above both. It is not for the common good. It's for a right to thumb
its nose at laws denying them what they wish were so. We need
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thoughtful, patient, smart, and wise leadership to keep Collier County
safe again.
Mr. Hall, your heartfelt reasons for launching this wolf in
sheep's clothing is laudable, but there are better-for-all ways to get
there. Fight the good fight. Do the hard work of leading with
wisdom.
If you still feel so strongly that this piece of work is right for the
good citizens of Collier County and it's what they want, then dare to
put it to a vote. Put it on the 2024 ballot if you're so convinced that
you are executing the will of the people and not just another power
grab by a minority of rich ravel rousers and anti-American groups
such as Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, Ku Klux Klan, and should-be gun
lobbyists.
Speaking of guns, the last time I made mention of guns was
when describing a friend who'd announced his eagerness for the bill
to pass so he could get his license to carry a gun again. He hadn't
been able to get his license for the past 20 years. Don't you wonder
why?
This ordinance does not guarantee gun rights, that's true, but
that's not the point. The point is people believe what they believe,
and they think this is a gun rights bill. There's nothing sanctuary
about that.
This ordinance does not protect our sacred rights. It does
expose us to lawsuits that we, the voters and citizens, will be
expected to bear, and will result in more incidence of lost innocent
life.
What do you expect will happen when a boundaries-less,
make-it-up-as-you-go policing strategy is released like Pandora's box
of woes on the streets of Naples and all Collier County?
In conclusion, I ask you to seriously look again at your rationale
for why those of you who think this is a good thing for Collier
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County could ever be a good thing for Collier County.
Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Jonathan Hullihan, and he
will be followed by Ray Nord.
Mr. Hullihan, I see you're unmuted. You have three minutes.
MR. HULLIHAN: Thank you.
Good afternoon. Thank you to the Board of County
Commissioners for the opportunity speak in support of the Bill of
Rights Sanctuary Ordinance.
I'm the general counsel and director of legal operations for
Citizens Defending Freedom, a nonpartisan organization with
chapters in Florida, Texas, and Georgia. We stand for liberty, we
stand for the rule of law, and we stand for the United States and state
constitutions where we operate.
From a legal and constitutional law analysis, I concur and adopt
the superb comments laid forth by Ms. Heuser; therefore, what I offer
in my comments is perspective.
I spent 13 years on active duty as a naval officer in JAG, serving
in both Iraq and Afghanistan combat theaters. While in Afghanistan,
I served with the Navy SEAL team as part of a Special Operations
Task Force.
I cooperated with local government officials, partner forces, and
village elders to assist in building the rule of law to provide a basic
foundation of civil liberties for their people and, in turn, stabilized the
nation to meet the mission of Operation Enduring Freedom.
Afghanistan did not and certainly no longer has a history and
tradition of respect for individual liberty or the rule of law.
Despite the best efforts of the United States to assist the people
of Afghanistan, the lack of individual liberty often resulted in tragedy
for the tribe or family that was not aligned with the local warlord or
shadow Taliban governance. Afghans were often murdered for the
August 22, 2023
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words they said, the god they chose to worship, or who they loved.
To juxtapose that perspective and experience I had in
Afghanistan from the founding of our republic, our bill of rights
stands for the proposition that liberties of a nation can only continue
to be secured by citizens of firm conviction who understand the value
and defend them from all encroachments.
This ordinance is not controversial. In fact, it clearly defines
and cites Supreme Court precedent, the separation of powers doctrine
within the federal government, but also recognizes the dual
sovereignty status of the United States and the state of Florida.
The founders never envisioned that courts would be the driver of
all law and policy, particularly when considering the singular federal
court, the Supreme Court, as listed in Article III. The founders
envisioned that Congress, state legislative bodies and, yes, county
commissioners are meant to be constitutionalists. But what happens
when checks and balances are off kilter?
The ordinance recognizes the Florida Constitution, that all
political power is inherent in the people and supports the legitimate
and lawful authority of Collier County as a local governance
representative of the people, by the people, and for the people.
The ordinance reflects respect for the rule of law, including
checks and balances provided by courts of competent jurisdiction.
This ordinance is a restatement and reaffirmation of principles
of the United States of America as a constitutional republic. It
guarantees and formally adopts civil rights and liberties to the
individual at the local level, like freedom of speech, press, and
religion. These liabilities are foundational to our form of
government, an oath of office that I took and that you have taken to
support and defend the United States Constitution.
This ordinance stands for the notion that we are a nation of laws
and not of men. This ordinance recognizes that our forefathers
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pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to secure
our liberty as enshrined in the Bill of Rights.
This ordinance honors the sacrifice made by our service
members on the beaches in Normandy, the jungles of Vietnam, and
the streets of Fallujah, Iraq.
In conclusion, this is an opportunity for the Board of County
Commissioners to stand on the principle that despite many
backgrounds, political beliefs, or systems that are represented, all
Americans, by the unalterable and unalienable laws of God and
nature, are well entitled to these inherent and essential liberties.
Citizens Defending Freedom unequivocally supports this issue,
and I urge the Board of County Commissioners to reflect on what this
ordinance represents, rise above the political fodder, and cast a
unanimous vote in support of passage.
Thank you very much.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Ray Nord, and he'll be
followed by David Millstein.
Mr. Nord you're being prompt to unmute yourself, if you'll do so
at this time. Okay. Mr. Nord, can you unmute yourself? There
you are, sir.
MR. NORD: Yes, sir.
MR. MILLER: You have three minutes, sir. You have three
minutes.
MR. NORD: Thank you very much.
Thank you, Commissioners, for the opportunity to address you
once again.
I have recently written to all of you to express my opposition to
this ordinance and to request that you vote no. Many of the reasons
for voting no have been iterated by many of the prior speakers, and I
don't want to rehash all of those, but -- and, by the way,
Commissioner Hall, I live in your district, and while it's very
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commendable that you wish to fulfill a campaign promise, this is not
about you; I'm sorry to say this is not about you. This is about all of
us.
There are two -- this was a bad idea two years ago, and it's still a
bad idea. It is essentially the same argument that was brought then,
and nothing that I see has been done to address any of the
problems -- or most of the problems that were attendant upon the last
proposal of this ordinance.
All of the speakers speaking today have addressed various
aspects of this, various ways of looking at it, but what I gather out of
a whole day's worth of testimony is that a good many of these people
do not understand what this proposed ordinance does. And
following on two years ago, it's still unclear at who decides what is
and what is not constitutional.
Furthermore, how do you execute -- who executes and how do
you execute any action under this ordinance? That has not been
addressed except to say that we still rely on the courts to do this, and
two years ago when this was brought up, there was some -- there
were impediments to getting this into the court system.
I urge all of you to review the testimony given by some very
wise people last time that says this is a nonstarter. You can't go to a
court that has sworn to uphold the Constitution and then challenge
the Constitution without having some avenue to do that. It hasn't
been clear from any of the testimony how you do that.
Furthermore, two years ago, there was a lot of discussion about
the fact that you, the Commissioners, and any other government
employee who tries to execute under this ordinance opens themselves
up to serious liabilities, legal and financial liabilities, and I've seen
nothing that addresses how that might be resolved.
Now, Article III of the Constitution is what the framers
established to protect citizens' rights and explicitly along the lines of
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the 10 and now 27 amendments to the Constitution. They aren't
always clear. They require interpretation because the world has
changed, and as it changes, everything is open to some form of
definition that is being expressed in opinions.
We rely on the court system to do that. And I think this
proposal, this ordinance is redundant to the processes that are
currently in place.
Furthermore, I think you as the Collier Commissioners have
much more important work to do. There are a host of problems that
you are working on: The environmental, healthcare, safety,
transportation, infrastructure, affordable housing. All of these are in
the vision statement that you follow, but --
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Sir, please sum up. Please sum
up. Thank you.
MR. NORD: I'm just going to say, please vote no. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is David Millstein, and he
will be followed by Sue Bookbinder.
David, you're being prompted -- ah, there you have. You have
three minutes, sir.
MR. MILLSTEIN: Thank you. Good afternoon. I'm David
Millstein. I live in Collier County. I've been a lawyer for 53 years,
and most of that time I've specialized in civil rights. I also taught the
course in law school.
But this isn't really about the law, the resolution, or the
ordinance that's presently before you. I want to look at it from a
more pragmatic point of view, and that is, the first point being that
this does not create any new rights or remedies for anybody.
Whatever rights, whatever remedies have been created by the Bill of
Rights and interpreted by the courts remain exactly the same whether
this ordinance gets passed or not.
So all this ordinance really does is interpose the County into the
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potential midst of a litigation fight. So you pass the ordinance, and
then somebody comes to the Sheriff and says, my rights are being
violated, do this, and the Sheriff does that, and it turns out to be
wrong. You get sued. You pay your own attorney a lot of money,
and then you end up paying counsel fees as well. Or if the Sheriff
says, no, I'm not going to do it and he turns out wrong, you're going
to get sued again, and you're going to pay counsel fees, and you're
going to pay the other side's counsel fees as well.
So all this really does is move the County into that position of
being a target defendant. And why the County would want to do
that, I just haven't got a clue. It will make a lot of money for
plaintiff's counsels who do this kind of work, but it's going to come
out of the taxpayers' pocket.
One of the commissioners a couple of hours ago even intimated
that that's what their primary concern was. Why put the County in
the path of litigation when it -- when no new rights are being created
and there are plenty of other avenues for the people to have their
rights enforced?
So I suggest to you from -- strictly from a pragmatic standpoint
you stay out of this and let what remedies exist exist and keep the
County out of the path of litigation.
Thanks so much for your attention.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Sue Bookbinder. She'll
be followed by Tamra Mitchell.
Sue, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do so at
this time. There you are. Sue, you have three minutes.
MS. BOOKBINDER: Thank you.
I'm Sue Bookbinder, as was just said. My educational
background is in government, economics, and industrial relations.
I'm originally from New York City where I lived and worked in those
fields until moving to Naples about 20 years ago.
August 22, 2023
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In all that time, I've been as adamant as ever about defending
our constitution and Bill of Rights. After hearing about this
ordinance, I am amazed, and it confuses me, and maybe some of you
can help me understand and clear up my confusion.
Since when does a local entity have the ability to nullify federal
law or lawful federal ordinance? And don't the government -- the
federal government's orders supersede the county's? I always was
taught that. And does everything like this ordinance get to -- how
does anything in this ordinance get to the commissioners' desk in the
first place when it's unlawful and not representative of the decisions
of the whole country?
Why are we asking our commissioners to vote for something
that is obviously the thinking of a tiny subset of our voting people?
Are we trying to change our revered Bill of Rights and Constitution
via a county ordinance? That doesn't make any sense to me.
Please vote no on this issue. Please vote no. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Your next speaker is Tamra Mitchell, and she
will be followed by Dana Gudenau.
Tamra, you're being prompted to unmute yourself, if you'll do
that at this time, and you have. You have three minutes.
MS. MITCHELL: Thank you. County Commissioners, my
name is Tamra Mitchell, and I apologize for my voice; I'm just
getting over COVID.
I'm a resident of Collier County and a retired attorney. The
New York attorney who drafted this ordinance said the purpose of the
ordinance is to prevent the County from carrying out unconstitutional
federal laws and programs, but that makes no sense, as any
unconstitutional law, federal or otherwise, is unenforceable by its
nature.
By passing the unnecessary ordinance, it sends a message that
Collier County will somehow take a special role in helping its
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citizens avoid federal laws and orders they don't like. As
Commissioner Saunders said, that's not their job, and that's not the
message he wants to send.
The real question, as so many people have said, is who gets to
make the determination that a federal law or order is unconstitutional,
and how is this done?
The ordinance appears to give this power to the Sheriff. When
asked earlier today how he'd enforce the ordinance, the Sheriff was
rather vague saying he'd take action and that maybe he'd have to go to
court. The ordinance itself doesn't give him any guidance, maybe
because that would be unconstitutional.
As many other speakers have told you, Article III of the
constitution established a federal judicial system to hear
constitutional issues. That's a specific power granted exclusively to
the federal courts. Any citizen who believes their constitutional
rights have been violated can go to the federal courts for relief, not to
the county sheriff.
Our great system of government already protects all Americans
against unconstitutional federal laws. There is no need to declare
Collier County a sanctuary from such.
On the other hand, the proposed ordinance does absolutely
nothing to protect the people of Collier County because it's illegal.
The Sheriff cannot simply declare laws he or she disagrees with to be
unconstitutional. That is the law as stated in our constitution and
unanimously decided under Cooper versus Aaron since 1958, and it's
still the law today.
So what will happen if you pass this illegal, unnecessary
ordinance? The drafting attorney dismissed our concerns about the
practical (unintelligible) is silly. You be the judge.
The ordinance expressly states that Collier County declares
itself, quote, free from the commanding hand of the federal
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government, unquote, by being able to declare federal laws and
orders null and void. The ramifications from this statement are
potentially vast. How can businesses operate in the uncertainty
resulting from not knowing whether to follow federal laws or orders
declared unconstitutional by the Sheriff?
Why give insurance companies another reason to refuse to cover
our county's property? Why jeopardize federal funding and grants,
including hurricane relief, that could be refused due to Collier
County's express refusal to be bound by federal law? There are also
the countless lawsuit that the ordinance expressly promotes by stating
that any citizen who believes a county employee, including the
commissioners, I suppose, is violating their constitutional rights, they
can be sued for damages, court costs, and attorney fees. The list
goes on and on.
I heard Commissioner Hall say that he was elected on his
promise to pass such an ordinance. Even so, once elected, you all
took an oath to uphold the law and our constitution. You all
reaffirmed your allegiance to the Constitution in a resolution you
passed in 2021. So knowingly passing an unconstitutional, illegal
ordinance would violate that oath as well as your duty of fiscal
responsibility owed to all your constituents for the financial fallout
that results.
For these reasons, I strongly urge you to vote no on the proposed
ordinance. Thank you.
MR. MILLER: Commissioners, your final registered public
speaker on this item is Dana Gudenau.
Dana, you're being prompted to unmute yourself. You were for
a second. Dana, are you there? There you are. Dana, you have
three minutes.
MS. GUDENAU: Thank you. Can you hear me okay?
MR. MILLER: Yes, ma'am.
August 22, 2023
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MS. GUDENAU: Thank you, Chairman, for scheduling this
time for me to support Collier County as Bill of Rights Sanctuary.
This ordinance recognizes the foundations of limited
government. Our founders understood that lesser magistrates are
very great governors or checks on power. If passed, it will be an
important say on a very bad trend in this country.
Today we see federal agencies defy law and allow our border to
be overrun, then counties all over the country declaring sanctuary for
those very lawbreakers. These counties offer a pretense by changing
words or definitions of words to deceive, and they do so with mass
media coverage in order to shake public outlook, yet, oddly, they
reverse themselves later, making a mockery of the entire thing and
sending illegal aliens they mislabel as migrants to targeted area in the
country.
This ordinance supports you and announces that our county seat
will defend its citizens against federal, state, and even global
government neglect or overreach. Our exercise of this proposal is
not optional. Many of us, including yourselves, are bound by an
oath to keep and defend the Constitution. What's not commonly
understood is our federal constitution is written to strictly limit
federal power so We the People remain free.
The Bill of Rights were not given to us by government but rather
by God. They are God-given rights protected by government.
And there are new reports that the fed has another mask mandate
rollout confirmed by retailors and TSA for mid-September, it's
alleged. Hopefully our voices can stop that but, nevertheless, with
this ordinance, it will help.
The founders remind us, our duty is eternal vigilance. This
ordinance serves as a posted notice that We the People of Collier
County are calibrating the scales of justice and empower our county
to uphold the law. It's refreshing and necessary in an era of rampant,
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global disregard of sovereignty.
Please pass this today with glad hearts. We're asking you to be
performative in duty not theater, like the other counties I mentioned
earlier.
In a time when so many are fearful, subversive, or mistaken
about our government structure, it's necessary to reiterate with all
confidence, right thinking, to rebuild the people's trust with the
loveliest, most peaceful doctrine inspired of God, our precious
republic.
Thank you, gentlemen. I really appreciate you.
MR. MILLER: And that is it, Mr. Chairman; all of our
comment.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Here's what I'd like to do.
We've covered a lot of ground today. I don't need commissioners to
light up because I think everybody here should make a closing
statement before we have any emotion or anything.
So here's what I propose. Commissioner Hall, you brought this
ordinance forward, so I think you should have the floor first, and then
I'm just going to go down the line like I always do. Then,
Commissioner McDaniel, if you'd like to say something afterwards,
then I'll go to Commissioner Kowal, we'll go to Commissioner
Saunders, then I'll make a statement as well, and then, Commissioner
Hall, I'll go back to you to make a motion and see if we have a
second.
So does that sound fair to everybody?
Okay. Commissioner Hall, the floor is yours, sir.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Thank you, Chairman.
I just want to keep it simple. This is -- it is an ordinance that's
going to back the people. This says Collier County will honor the
Constitution, will honor the Bill of Rights, will honor every federally
constitutional law that comes down.
August 22, 2023
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If anything comes down that is deemed unconstitutional or that
is obvious that is not constitutional, the people have the rights to fight
back. The people give the federal government power. The federal
government does not tell the people what to do. That's the way our
country was framed. That's the way it is. This has nothing to do
with nullification.
To the one reverend that said this is not -- you know, it's not
common sense, you have to go through the judicial system and go
through years of it, it's like, no. If the federal government told her
she had to shut her church down and she couldn't preach the good
news of Jesus Christ or Judeo-ism or whatever her church is, that
wouldn't -- that's common sense. That is a direct violation. It
doesn't take -- it doesn't take anybody to figure that out.
(Applause.)
COMMISSIONER HALL: This ordinance is simple. We're
going to back and live just like the framers intended us to do. We're
not looking to nullify, to pick -- I don't even want to go there. I've
already said it. It's a simple thing. It's very legal, it's very moral,
and I hope that my colleagues join me in voting for it.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I haven't changed my mind
from the last -- from two years ago. I believe that this is a
reaffirmation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I believe
that it's an additional protection for the citizens of Collier County. I
don't think it takes away from the rights that our citizens currently
already have, and I'm in support.
You know, our sheriff, our congressman, our legislators
are -- were in support of it, still are in support of it, and so am I.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I just -- I'll just reiterate that, you
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know, like I said earlier, this -- we're following -- we're supporting
the Constitution, and we're supporting these 10 Bill of Rights. And
you look at the language in the Bill of Rights, and it says in there
specifically where the laws are made and how the laws are made and
who can uphold the laws and who can't uphold the laws.
I mean -- and our sheriff said -- and he answered -- in question
asked and answered, this doesn't mean we're not going to abide by
federal laws. If there's a federal law that has been -- has been bound
and legislated and is written -- and passed, and it's written and came
down in law, it has a statute. And if somebody violates that statute
and it meets elements of that statute and there's probable cause, just
like any other criminal violation, they will be served, but that does
not mean they're guilty. And that's when the courts come into play.
This is more or less to protect you from us. This is just
basically saying, us as a body at this level, when things come down
that aren't actual laws, that aren't -- already been ratified laws, that
are already in existence that have elements to them, that we have the
opportunity to look at this or an executive order or a policy coming
from an agency.
And the perfect example -- and I have to keep going back to
it -- was the pandemic. And as much as people don't like to look at
it, that was a perfect example why we have to have a check and
balance of us. This is not about you. This is about us. We're the
only ones that can violate your constitutional law, is your
government. We're the ones that will violate it. And this -- this,
then, makes us look and double-check what decisions we're about
ready to make that is not connected to a federal law or a state law.
And, yes, there's perfect examples where the state can do things
where the federal government does not believe. I mean, the federal
DEA, a Schedule 1 narcotic is a cannabis. A Schedule 1 narcotic
means -- according to federal government, it has no municipal use.
August 22, 2023
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It is illegal to obtain and use in the United States of America, but then
the state of Florida has medical marijuana. Colorado has municipal
[sic] marijuana. Are you saying they're flying in the face of the
federal government in their own statute? No. They challenged it,
and they won, and it's -- and they got the laws passed in their states,
and they live by those laws.
And it's no different. We have -- I think it was asked and
answered already of how is it going to be carried out. You know,
this is going to go down as an ordinance, which is a misdemeanor.
If somebody feels that we up here made a decision following some
sort of ordinance or some sort of handed-down memo or executive
order from a higher government than us and we just blindly follow
that and not look at the constitutionality of it, then, yes, they have a
right to go to the Sheriff and say, I think my right was violated by the
actions of the Collier County Commission.
And if they feel that it meets any elements of that and it is an
unconstitutional decision that we make, then, yes, they have a right to
file a misdemeanor case, and then it will go through the system just
like anything else.
They don't have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt,
because that's what crimes have to be proven by, not probable cause.
Probable cause gives you the right to file the crime -- or probable
cause gives you the right to place the charges but does not mean you
committed the crime. We all have to understand that.
And the government is the only one that can take these rights
away from you, not the citizens. And this is just what it is. It's just
a check and balance on us as we move forward. And maybe not us,
but boards in the future. Because then in the boards in the future
when they are faced with another pandemic or epidemic and they
have to make decisions that might violate your constitutional rights,
they would have to reverse this ordinance, and they would have to
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come out publicly and say, I don't believe in the 10 Bill of Rights, I
don't believe in the Constitution, and that will contradict their oath
they had to take to have this seat.
So that is just -- this is pretty -- as simple as it can be in my
mind is that that's what I believe we're doing with this ordinance is
actually holding us to task to make sure we do exactly what we took
our oath to do, and that's how -- I believe I have to support this
moving forward.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think I'm kind of in the lonely position of being on the end of
the decision that is not going to be the way I vote, I guess is what I'm
trying to say.
I think this is a well-intended exercise, I think this is a
well-intended ordinance, but I don't think it's -- number one, I don't
think it's necessary but, number two, my concern is it really sends the
wrong message to the public.
We just had a gentleman up here a few moments ago talking
about gun rights and what's happened in New York State. He,
apparently is under the impression that this ordinance will give him
some rights to deal with federal rules that may come out of
Washington dealing with gun issues. We don't have any jurisdiction
to deal with the gun issue. The state legislature has made that very
clear.
We can't -- if he came to us and said, listen, there's a federal law
on the books now that says you have to register in some way that I
believe is a violation of my constitutional rights, I don't want that
enforced in Collier County, he may have that ability -- or that thought
that we can do that, but we can't. We don't have that authority.
I tend to be kind of a purist when it comes to dealing with
county government. We have certain areas that we have legal
August 22, 2023
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authority to deal with: Roads, water, sewer, all of those types of
municipal issues. We have statutes that deal with what our authority
is, and we do not have the authority to determine if a rule or
regulation from the federal government is constitutional. We don't
have that ability, we don't have that authority, and we're sending a
message to the public that, yes, we do.
And I understand where Commissioner Kowal's coming from,
that we want to -- obviously, we don't want to be doing things
ourselves that are unconstitutional, but we just don't have the ability
to determine whether a federal rule or federal law, a federal program
using the terms of this ordinance violates or unreasonably restricts,
impedes, or impinges upon the individual constitutional rights. I
don't know what that means.
And we had one speaker who talked about how this seems to be
a mixture of civil stuff and criminal stuff, and the reason that it seems
to be a mixture of that is because it's all mixed in here. We have this
civil issue, and we have this criminal issue here.
So I'm not -- I can't support this ordinance as drafted. I
absolutely support and would defend the Constitution of the United
States and would strive to protect the constitutional rights of our
citizens. But I don't believe this is the right way to do it, and I think
it sends the wrong message.
So, Mr. Chairman, even though I think this is well-intended, I
can't support it.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Thank you, sir.
I made a lot of notes here, so I want to be heard as well.
First, I thank all citizens for your view -- for your views, your
passion, your patriotism, and, most of all, your professionalism today.
I think the way that we ran our meeting is the way that our Founding
Fathers would have wanted it.
We had great discussion, people on opposing views but,
August 22, 2023
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hopefully, we walk out this door, regardless of the vote, respecting
each other and being thankful that we're Americans.
After weighing all the input in 2021, I voted for this ordinance
without hesitation. It failed 3-2, and I was very disappointed. Now,
two years later, I remained wide open and available to all citizens and
organizations to hear their views, and I have for months.
I don't believe this ordinance nullifies federal laws that we don't
like. It's a preparatory step that, as has been said, has the citizens'
backs and allows us to strengthen our ability to merely question
federal law if or when we feel our federal government is
overreaching outside of their authority.
This ordinance does not give anyone autonomous authority.
Our streets won't be lawless.
Lawsuits are always possible with any vote; however, that
should never dictate our ability to do what we think is right.
This doesn't make us a lawless county, as some people said, but
I feel it makes us a law-focused one.
I believe in limiting government overreach. I believe in citizen
rights. I believe in the protection of citizen freedoms.
There is a lot of misinformation on this topic, and I believe we
heard some of it today, not with any kind of ill intention but,
obviously, people who feel different ways.
As has been said, I believe nothing changes unless something
changes, as has been said. This is merely a preparatory step if ever
needed.
As Sheriff Rambosk said, this reemphasizes his mission,
authority, and oath, but he's not the decision-maker.
I'm a 24-year Air Force veteran. As a commissioner, I protect
rights. As a veteran, I fought for them. Nobody needs to remind
me of my oath as a commissioner or the meaning and intention of the
Bill of Rights or Constitution.
August 22, 2023
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I've listened. I've been accessible in and out of my office for
months. I've communicated with all sides. I don't negatively judge
those who disagree with me, but I was proud to vote for this in 2021
without hesitation, and after careful reconsideration, I have zero
reservations this time, and I'm proud to support it again.
(Applause.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It's been said, lead, follow, or get
out of the way. I'm not nervous or disappointed that we will be the
first county in Florida to pass this ordinance. I'm actually proud of
it.
(Applause.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall.
COMMISSIONER HALL: I move to approve the Sanctuary
Bill of Rights for Collier County.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Do I have a second?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Second.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I have a motion by Commissioner
Hall and a second by Commissioner McDaniel. All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed?
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes 4-1.
(Applause.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: What I would like to do now is just
take a break, so -- we still have a lot of business at the County, so if
you don't want to hear any of that business, you're free to leave, and
we will reconvene in -- at 5:00.
(A brief recess was had from 4:49 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.)
August 22, 2023
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COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I'd like to make a motion to
reconsider the vote that we just took on the ordinance.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: There's 100 sheriffs outside this
building right now wreaking havoc on Collier County.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: A good chair would have
called it failed for no second.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Contrary to popular belief, we do
have more business, and we don't just vote on and talk about one
thing, so we do have a few things to sort of clean up here.
County Manager, is 11E next?
MS. PATTERSON: Yes, sir.
Item #11E
RECOMMENDATION TO APPROVE AN AGREEMENT FOR
SALE AND PURCHASE WITH 1) WILLIAM JOSEPH SCALLEY,
JR. AND MARTHA L. SCALLEY, 2) PATRICIA E. MCGINNIS
AND STANLEY E. MAGNER, 3) MARICEL ALEU FONTELA,
AND 4) DELSINA TRIGOURA AND AMY TRIGOURA UNDER
THE CONSERVATION COLLIER LAND ACQUISITION
PROGRAM, AT A COST NOT TO EXCEED $146,815. (DISTRICT
5) - MOTION TO APPROVE BY COMMISSIONER LOCASTRO;
SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER HALL- APPROVED – 5/0
Item 11E, formerly 16A7, is a recommendation to approve an
agreement for sale and purchase with, 1, William Joseph Scalley, Jr.,
and Martha L. Scalley; 2, Patricia E. McGinnis and Stanley E.
Magner; 3, Maricel Aleu Fontela; and, 4, Delsina Trigoura and Amy
Trigoura under the Conservation Collier Land Acquisition Program,
at a cost not to exceed $146,815.
This item is brought to the agenda by Commissioner LoCastro's
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request, and Ms. Jaime Cook, your director of Development Review,
is here to present or answer questions.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: So I only pulled it because I
wanted to hear Amy read all those names.
MS. PATTERSON: Thanks.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: This doesn't need discussion, okay.
I only pulled this, really, to just have maybe a little healthy, short
little discussion.
Conservation Collier lots are going to come to us a lot. This
isn't about me talking about sour grapes about Marco or anything like
that. But I will say that our Clerk of Courts, in her notes, she almost
wrote verbatim of what I had in mine, and when we met it was
something that really jumped out at me, and I thought it was just
worthy of discussion.
You know, my view on Conservation Collier is in that it's
not -- it's not a real estate deal. It's not about us just buying land.
It's about finding pieces of property that have, you know,
environmental fragility, that have, you know, different species of
animals that are -- that are, you know, endangered, or what have you,
or all of the above. It's not just about sort of making a land grab.
And I realize it runs the gamut.
These particular parcels here -- and we talked about it at our last
meeting. It's great to see that the motion -- and it was something that
I actually had brought forward and we all agreed to it and said, just
because the appraised value was a certain amount doesn't mean that's
what we have to settle for.
So it's nice to see that on the appraised value these owners
agreed to a price slightly less because any money that we can save
might allow us to secure an extra lot down the road or maybe several.
But as I look at the map -- and I'm not here to question, you
know, these lots. These come forward from Conservation Collier,
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you know. I don't want to say, like, it looks like we're buying
swampland, but I didn't see a lot -- a big deep dive saying, oh, my
god, all these lots are covered with burrowing owls and gopher
tortoises and full of panthers. And that's not to say all the lots that
should be purchased under Conservation Collier need to be that
environmentally heavy.
But I just think, you know -- just for the record, I just wanted to
say, I hope we continue to do our due diligence when it comes to
Conservation Collier because the 25 million can be spent very
quickly, especially if we have expensive lots like some of the other
ones that we have purchased in the past or not purchased.
You know, these aren't very expensive lots, but, you know, I sort
of question their importance. It does help put together a puzzle piece
if you look at what the Clerk of Courts gave us. No question, it
helps sort of give some cohesiveness to some lots that we already
own. And I'm sure it also has to -- and I know it also has to do with
water movement and all kinds of other things. So it's not that they're
useless pieces of land that we're just buying up.
But I just, you know, ask my colleagues that when these come to
us, let's make sure that it's not a first come, first served; that we can
turn down some things if we don't think that they're -- that it's a
valuable investment in our environment and in the protection of our
different species because, you know, once we spend the money, if
some lots then come to us afterwards and are full of panthers, full of
tortoises, and we don't have the funds, it's going to be really
disappointing that maybe we didn't spend the money wisely.
And so I didn't want to have a huge discussion, you know.
Ms. Cook, definitely don't need a presentation unless my colleagues
do. But I just -- I thought what Ms. Kinzel sort of outlined -- and I'm
sure you-all read her comments. I thought they really had a lot of
merit. And like I said, it mirrored where I -- you know, some things
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that I had flagged or I thought, you know, it's not just a matter of,
wow, let's buy these lots because we can get them cheaper than what
the people are -- or what the lot was appraised for.
And I'm not saying that's exactly what we're doing, but it just
reminded me that every time we vote on the purchase of lots, I hope
it's because it has a heavy environmental value and not just that, you
know, we bought more land and we happened to get it for a
discounted price and, you know, yeah, it was in an area where -- I
mean, you know, everything around here has some sort of
environmental impact value, but some stuff has it more than others.
And I think when it comes to Conservation Collier, the spirit of
that program is that we're zeroing in on lots that we're truly trying to
protect in perpetuity for very, very specific environmental and
wildlife reasons.
I'm not so sure on these particular lots it's that heavy. I'm not
saying it's zero percent. But I had some of the same concerns that
our Clerk of Courts did, and so I just thought I would pull it to see if
anybody had any discussion. I'm not here to vote no or shoot it
down in any way but just to sort of raise those points.
So Commissioner McDaniel and then Commissioner Kowal.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.
Just a couple of points. And I'm bringing it up now. I've had
some discussion with our staff.
You brought forward some really good points. I mean, you
know, the subjectivity that's involved with environmental sensitivity
is a perilous path because there are -- to some, everything's
environmentally sensitive.
I have advocated forever for property rights and the protection
of those property rights. And one of the things when I shared with
Crystal -- Crystal Kinzel, our Clerk. Yesterday she and I talked
about.
August 22, 2023
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Similarly, with regard -- it's difficult to remember these
acquisitions are Target Protection Zones. We're not just throwing
darts at a map and somebody shows up and hands us a piece of
property and somebody says, here, buy my land. They're zones.
There are areas that are Target Protection Zones that are delineated
for our staff to focus their energies on advertising and seeking
acquisition of these lands.
I know particularly -- I don't know which one of these four. It's
part of a -- part of a -- I think they call it the Horse Pen Strand up on
the northeast side of Golden Gate -- what is it?
MS. COOK: It's two of these properties; Panther Walk
Preserve.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Panther Walk Preserve. And
I remember -- you know, because we've got another development
coming at us in the northeast called the 846 Land Trust. The
Immokalee Road Rural Villages is what it's known as now.
They're -- we're going to have -- there is a large wildlife corridor up
there on the north end of that property that's been established and,
basically, protected by the developer.
And one of the things that we're going to have a discussion
about coming forward is a wildlife crossing over that canal that runs
up the east side of that piece of property. And also, you know,
potentially a weir and a pump station and things to help us manage
flood circumstances, have water quality, maybe have some
rehydration into the Corkscrew Sanctuary area as well. So there's a
whole bunch of things that could come from that.
But, more specifically, myself -- and since you pulled it, I'm
going to get to talk about it publicly, is I have had -- I've had some
discussions, not moving forward so much, but I'd like to see us give
consideration at some stage to the Transferable Development Right
program within Golden Gate Estates itself to allow for
August 22, 2023
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private -- because each one of these properties is developable. You
have to mitigate in the event -- depending on the environmental
sensitivity of the property, you have to mitigate in order to build your
home, but you can build a home if you own a -- if you own a lot in
Golden Gate Estates, you can do it. It just costs more.
And so one of my thoughts were to develop a TDR program to
incentivize property owners to not build, reducing the density further,
especially in the Rural Golden Gate Estates, and allow for those
development rights similarly to the Rural Fringe Mixed-Use District
and the RLSA to transfer away from the more environmentally
sensitive lands to urban areas where we have better infrastructure and
so on and so forth.
And then when developers come to us and want extra density
because they're nice or they're going to provide a certain level of
housing affordability, they've got -- they've got a -- we're actually
literally transferring property rights that are already existent. We're
not just increasing density on the premise of housing availability or
just giving more density.
So the conversation I'd like to see us going forward is explore
that transferable development right. It would then provide an
additional benefit for Conservation Collier.
One of the things within the existing ordinance of Conservation
Collier is the development rights are extinguished when Conservation
Collier buys that property. And this would allow for an additional
benefit for those development rights to be consumed by a developer
and then those monies come back into Conservation Collier to help
us with our perpetual -- because once we buy a piece of property, we
own it. And unless we deem it to be accessory -- and then we could
put it up for sale, of course.
But we have to maintain it. Exotic removal, so on and so forth;
public access, depending on where it is and how we can get to it and
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such.
So it's just -- my thoughts are along -- I was pleased that you
pulled it, but I wanted to bring that point. And if there is consensus
for us to have a look at that, I'd like to explore that with our staff to
see if it's something that we could pursue.
I see it as a benefit, both for the property rights that are existent
as well as for Conservation Collier to receive additional benefits.
These four lots come with the right to build four homes. And so we
would then have an additional value to be able to receive revenues for
those development rights back into Conservation Collier and utilize
those funds back into the perpetual maintenance side.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Commissioner Kowal and
then Commissioner Hall.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Thank you, Chairman.
Yeah. When I saw this myself -- I had a conversation with the
Clerk of Courts, and two of these parcels on here kind of looked
wonky and out of alignment with what we've already had going over
there.
You know, and I started looking at it and thinking to myself,
these are considered Cycle 11A list properties, which, typically, when
they make the A list, these are the cream of the crop, and these are
the most environmentally, you know, important ones. Because
there's other ones on the list that don't make the A list; is that correct?
MS. COOK: Correct.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So, you know -- and a few of
these are out there kind of on an island that we have no guarantee
we'll ever have connectivity with what we already own or what we're
already trying to achieve in these areas.
You mentioned Panther Strand.
MS. COOK: Panther Walk.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Panther Walk.
August 22, 2023
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And, you know, two of them I see there's some connectivity,
which I can understand. You know, that would -- to me would stick
out and say, oh, this is -- probably should be on the A list. So I don't
know, you know, the exact formula they're using for this A list or
what. But then you have properties in these graphs that are
highlighted with yellow outlines. Are these the ones that are on the
list that didn't make the A list, or are these the ones that are still in
process or --
MS. COOK: So if --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Do you have that graph that's on
there?
MS. COOK: I do.
MR. MILLER: Is it not moving for you?
MS. COOK: No. Okay.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: There you go.
MS. COOK: So, Commissioner, the properties highlighted in
green are properties already owned by Conservation Collier. The
ones outline in yellow are ones that purchase agreements -- we're
working through the purchase agreements to bring forward to
actually acquire, and then the one outlined in red is the subject
property for this particular property owner.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah. And that's what -- kind
of what I was looking at. The example, the one in red is just kind of
an island. It doesn't connect to the one above it or the one to the
right of it to create any kind of, like, cohesive flow of water or
anything, but then you have the ones where we already own
properties that are in yellow that are connected to other larger parcels
that we already own as part of the program.
To me, were those on an L list where we just haven't gotten to
them or --
MS. COOK: So Panther Walk Preserve is one of the newer
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preserves, the target protection mailing areas that Commissioner
McDaniel was referring to. So this is the newest one, that area that
we're targeting. So we've acquired the least amount of property in
this area so far, but we are continuing to send out the mailings and
work with those property owners that do wish to sell to Conservation
Collier.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. So, then, the other
graph -- I don't know if you have the other one that we have a larger
mass of green -- there, that one there. And you see the one that's
yellow but outlined in red. I believe that's one of the ones on this
list.
MS. COOK: Correct, yes.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Correct? So it's -- we don't
have anything connected to that at this point, right?
MS. COOK: So not currently. The one across the street is
working through the process, and just to the north.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I guess what I'm trying to say is,
you know, we consider these A list, and -- you know -- and when I
saw some of the A lists in the past, I mean, it had distinct, you know,
either endangered species, things like that, or already in an area that
made some sense to -- it was just building on what we already had.
And I guess my question is -- you know, this program has been
in effect for 10 years already. I think it was reelected -- or voted
again on the ballot in 2020, I think.
MS. COOK: Correct.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So we're looking at another 10
years. I just don't want to see that we're just putting things on there
just to put them on there because the program's in effect. I guess I'm
just trying to get some clarity.
MS. COOK: So I think -- there's four Target Protection Areas:
Panther Walk, Robert Gore Preserve, Winchester Head, and Red
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Maple Swamp, and those have historically always been on the A list
for staff to engage with property owners in those areas. So that's
why they've stayed --
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: The area itself -- correct. The
area itself makes it the A list.
MS. COOK: Correct.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: It's not that this particular
property came before their -- their board for evaluation and said, oh,
this is going to be an A list property --
MS. COOK: Correct.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: -- versus one that could be three
streets down?
MS. COOK: Correct. Yeah, it's because it's this area.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. All right. That gives
me some clarity on it, because the area itself, we consider
that -- regardless of what we can obtain, is considered an A list within
that area?
MS. COOK: Correct.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. That clarifies it for me.
And like what Commissioner McDaniel, you know, just brought
up, I mean, you know, if we do buy some of these lots that are out on
an island and we see no future of ever using them or having
connectivity, is there a position in the future that we can, you know,
put some provision or some language to say, hey, you know, this is
never going to be part of it, you know, we're beyond it ever -- you
know, these people don't want to sell between the two, and to have
the opportunity to sell it and put that money back into the program
for things that we are on the hook to do for the rest of its being, you
know, the properties we already own, you know, for maintenance and
things like that?
So, you know, I kind of like that idea, you know, moving
August 22, 2023
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forward. But I guess that's going to take more than just this
discussion, so...
Thank you for that clarity, because I was just -- I was -- I wanted
to get some clarity on that, that it's the area itself that makes it an A
list property, not just the fact that we looked at each property
individually and put it on the A list.
MS. COOK: Correct.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall.
COMMISSIONER HALL: So if we go the TDR route,
who -- what is the rate per acre or whatever?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yeah. Don't go there yet. I
mean, we'll -- if it's the will of the Board and you want me to explore
it, I'll work on it --
COMMISSIONER HALL: No, I'm just curious. Is that --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- and come up with a
formula.
COMMISSIONER HALL: -- something that -- does the
County pay that to the landowner to transfer the rights --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: No, no, no.
COMMISSIONER HALL: -- or where does that money come
from?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: The money comes from the
value -- in my brain, the money comes from the value of the property
rights that are existent. Just using this one that's here on the map
right now. That's a 75-foot tract. They can build a home. And
then a metrics could be developed to determine the transferability of
that out of here in a -- we know this is an environmentally sensitive
area.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Right.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: This -- the Panther Preserve's
August 22, 2023
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out here. It's a known travel corridor for animals to get over into the
North Belle Meade and such.
So we could develop a metrics of the value of that to a developer
in the urban area. Before you became a commissioner, OneNaples
was a development that came that asked for extra density. I don't
recall there being any housing affordability in that project, but there
was an increase in density. And so rather than just bequeath extra
units, we could say, sure, you want extra units? Here's -- here are
development rights that are already existent in our community, and
the cost is X.
COMMISSIONER HALL: So does the developer pay --
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yes, pays -- it would then
pay Conservation Collier and/or even a property owner that was
within the Estates or --
COMMISSIONER HALL: Okay.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: -- within these areas. At
which point, then, if that right is stripped by a private property owner
and sold, then it would reduce the costs for Conservation Collier's
acquisition.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Sure. That's what I was asking
about because, to me, some of these lots are just willy-nilly exit
strategies for something that's never going to be built on.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Well, they all can -- and
that's where the clarity is, is they all can be built on. It just depends
on how much you can afford.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Right.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I mean, the mitigation is
possible on everything.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Okay. I'd be willing to have the
other conversation.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Okay. Good. Can you go
August 22, 2023
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back -- can I -- I'm lit. Did you unlight me?
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It's all you.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Go back to the previous map.
I just wanted to repeat just for a second, there's a picture here that's
really clear -- and for Commissioner Kowal's sake, this is part of a
bigger picture. If you look at the entire area -- aerial photo of this
area, this Panther Walk Preserve goes up across Immokalee Road,
through a very environmentally sensitive flowway north -- on the
eastern side of that first rural village we approved called Brightshore
and then comes down, and just on the south of the old Big Island
mine there, that's the lakes that are there up in the north -- or on the
left-hand side of this picture, those lakes right there, that whole area
where -- whoever's running the arrow -- that's a preserve area that the
developer has set aside for corridor of travel.
They also gave us right-of-way over on Immokalee Road to the
west of this. And along the eastern boundary of the Immokalee
Rural Villages, there is a canal that runs all the way up three-quarters
of the way through the old Big Island mine as well.
That's -- and that's -- on that southwest -- southeast corner of the
Big Island Mine is where I was proposing the wildlife crossing. It is
proposed. I think the -- there was some discussion at some stage to
the developer might want to remove that wildlife crossing, but
we're -- I'd like to see it stay in place because it's a locale where a
weir and a pump station -- because that canal that then traverses
south, it goes all the way down and comes ultimately into the Gordon
River through Golden Gate Estates. It's one of the main canals in
Golden Gate Estates.
We could really have a lot of say-so in what's going on with
flood control and such in the Estates with the weir and a pump station
and a wildlife crossing to facilitate the east/west travel for the
animals and then the water flow and flood control in the Estates.
August 22, 2023
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So that's why I was -- you know, the -- it kind of looks like we're
throwing darts, but we're not, because when you look at this as a
bigger picture, you can actually see the flowway and the
environmental sensitivity coming from the north out of the sanctuary.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I'm very familiar with that. I
dropped my children off at the Everglades Elementary School, which
is at the bottom right-hand corner there.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: So you know it well.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: So I know it. No, I just wanted
to get clarity on how the A list actually affect -- or how it worked in
the area, because I was under the assumption -- I guess I was wrong
thinking it was -- every lot was individually looked at. But it makes
a lot more sense that, you know, the area itself is designated, and if
we get the opportunity to get in there and get it, then that's an A list
regardless.
MS. COOK: Correct.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: But here's what I'd -- first of all, I
think pulling it had merit just for this healthy discussion, and that's all
I wanted, although I guess since it was on the consent agenda and it
would have been voted on, County Manager, we'd have to vote on
this, right, because it would have been voted?
MS. PATTERSON: (Nods head.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Just -- my only comment:
Here's what I don't like about hearing, well, the area makes it the A
list. In my view, then, I want a lot more detail as to why that
particular parcel, then, has value. So it might be on the A list
because it's in a particular area, but if it's sort of scattered around, the
panthers don't know to only walk on the yellow square, okay. And
so -- and I know it's more than that. I'm being semi-sarcastic,
because what Commissioner --
August 22, 2023
Page 215
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: There are signs -- there are
signs that forces --
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: There are signs, yeah, "stay here."
There's a thing. We don't have electric fences.
So here's my comment -- and I wrote it down as we were talking
here. The area might make it the A list, but we should only buy it
when it has value, impact, and some sort of preservation. And that
doesn't necessarily mean just wildlife or something else. It could
mean water. It could be we're trying to -- we're trying to put a
puzzle piece together.
As Commissioner McDaniel said, hey, down the road
where -- this map will look so much better. Well, as long as it has
that type of strategy -- because initially it did look like dartboard to
me, and it looked like, eh, you know, it's 45,000. They'll take 42-.
Boom. Conservation Collier, we bought another one.
And, you know, like I said, the panthers aren't going to tiptoe
through the -- you know, through only the yellow boxes.
So I would just like to see all of us get as much detail as
possible. It doesn't matter, a $42,000 lot could have more value than
a $5 million lot because of whatever Conservation Collier or the staff
can tell us. And if you drill down into what was on the agenda
today, there wasn't all of the detail. It was like, these are the lots.
They're on the A list. We can buy them a few thousand less than the
appraisal.
So if there was something on there, then maybe it was deeper
than I went, possibly. So maybe pull it a little bit more forward
because I think, you know, just hearing from all of us here, we are
focused on the value of the lot and not just the price, you know. Is
this lot worthy of investing in Conservation Collier, or it's just
another land buy, and it was a quick one, because -- and I'm not
saying that's the case here, but we want to make sure that's never the
August 22, 2023
Page 216
case. Hey, we got it appraised. We offered a price. They accepted
a little less. It's in sort of the A area, check. You know, we don't
want to do that.
Because I'm concerned that if we did do that, we could get at the
end of the year, and maybe some lots that, you know, hadn't been on
any list all of a sudden come to light, and they're $4 million, and
we're sitting here with $17,000 in the bank because, you know, we
bought a lot of $42,000 lots that were all sort of scattered through
here and maybe did have a bigger strategic, you know, plan down the
road.
But I would just say, not too far down the road, because if that
doesn't come to fruition, then we did buy a whole bunch of scattered
lots.
I just -- I would like -- that when we get this ahead of time,
there's a much detail in the agenda as what the Clerk of Courts, you
know, provided us and then what we sort of dug out on our own.
Because, you know, this is a valuable program, and it's not a cheap
one, and we only have so much money, you know, to invest.
So having said that, you know, I make a motion that we approve
the list, unless there's any objection. Do I have a second?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Second.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Second.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. So I made a motion. So I
heard Commissioner Hall and Commissioner McDaniel seconded.
I'll say Commissioner Hall second. All in favor?
COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed?
August 22, 2023
Page 217
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously.
MS. PATTERSON: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. County Manager, what's
next?
Item #15A
PUBLIC COMMENTS ON GENERAL TOPICS NOT ON THE
CURRENT OR FUTURE AGENDA BY INDIVIDUALS NOT
ALREADY HEARD DURING PREVIOUS PUBLIC COMMENTS
IN THE MEETING
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, that brings us to Item 15,
which is staff and Commission general communications. First is
public comments on general topics not on the current or future
agenda by individuals not already being heard during previous public
comments in this meeting.
MR. MILLER: No one left.
Item #15B
STAFF PROJECT UPDATES
MS. PATTERSON: Okay. Item 15B is staff project updates.
We actually don't have any on the agenda, but quickly I'm going to
ask Mr. French to come up on an item relative to getting direction on
some minimum housing standards. We've been dealing a lot with
hotel conversions, and we've run across a little snag, and we're just
looking for a little bit of guidance.
Mr. French.
August 22, 2023
Page 218
MR. FRENCH: Good evening, Commissioners.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Good evening.
MR. FRENCH: Jamie French, for the record, with Growth
Management.
I know that this -- this has been a subject for discussion. I'm
certain that Commissioner Hall will recognize it, that we've had some
recent presentations from the -- they're the contract purchaser for the
Golden Gate hotel golf course, or the golf course hotel, and I think
that they've been in to see many of you to kind of tell you what
they're -- what they're talking about as well as there's another hotel
conversion that we've been in conversation with down near Tollgate,
that I-75 and Davis Boulevard/Collier Boulevard corridor.
However, in working with our staff and working with legal
counsel, currently, under Section 22-231 under your minimum
housing standards, it does not support the conversion of these hotels.
In other words, they're not large enough. So your minimum housing
standard requires that the first -- for one person it be required for at
least 250 square feet, and then 200 square feet for each person
afterwards.
A typical hotel will run somewhere between 350 to, perhaps, up
to 400 square feet. And what these companies are talking about is
really converting these to a flat. And it may be a young couple.
Typically it's not a large family. But they're going to need a little
help with our code if they're going to be successful at this. And I
know that rather than them getting here in front of you, staff felt we
should probably bring it to you first.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I talked to a representative of the developer. And this actually,
I think, is a very important project for that area. That hotel has been
an eyesore. It is -- quite frankly, it's a slum right now. There are
August 22, 2023
Page 219
people living in subhuman conditions at this facility.
I think the fire department has, from time to time, talked about
the fact that there are fire hazards there.
And so we have a developer that will come in, has a contract to
buy this, has to close on that contract before the end of the year. So
there's a very short time frame. If that contract falls apart, then I
don't know what is next for that piece of property.
So I would suggest to the Board and would, ultimately, perhaps
make this as a motion, if it would be necessary, but for staff to work
with the developer and the developer's representatives to find the
most effective and quickest way to get that property in a posture
where it can be redeveloped for the type of efficiencies that this
gentleman -- this group is putting together.
These will be market-value rentals, but they'll be market value
for rentals that are 350 feet, 400 square feet. So they'll be very
inexpensive. They'll be very good for, basically, single individuals
that are getting into the workforce or a young couple that are really
getting started. This will fill a niche there that I think is important,
and I think it will be great for that community.
So I would make that as a motion to ask staff to work with the
property owner, determine what is the most efficient way to get
those -- that property in a posture where that developer can develop it
and put that on a fast track.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Commissioner.
Just very quickly, we totally agree with you. We'd like to work
with the County Attorney's Office on this if it's the will of the Board.
We've had very limited conversation with Mr. Klatzkow's staff but,
as always, they're great to help us, wonderful partners, and we'd look
forward to bringing something back.
We do believe that this is -- we've all heard of tiny houses.
This may be a new approach to the tiny house. And we do know
August 22, 2023
Page 220
that the cost of construction is certainly exacerbated when you have
to come from the ground up.
Many of these structures, like the one that we referred to earlier,
we do know that the fire department and our Code Enforcement
group and the property owner, they did go through the eviction
process because the property was deemed to be unsafe, fire
protections, life safety, so that we know that it's very limited
occupancy in that structure now.
The property owner, they appear to have a good track record
across the country, and they're all in, so to speak. And so they are
looking for a little help locally to see what we can do on our current
code that might be able to help with some of these hotel conversions
as they come about.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: I'm going to second
Commissioner Saunders' motion with a simple comment: Fix the
code.
MR. FRENCH: That's why I'm here, sir.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yes, sir. I figured that.
You know, I met with those developers. I was concerned about
control of how many people are in the unit, so on and forth. They
had good answers for those things with what I felt was a good checks
and balance. And when I say "fix the code," it's not a -- it's not a
swipe. You know that, when I say that. It's some kind of an
abbreviated conditional use. We want to make sure that we protect
the residents that are in proximity to all of our hotels, because if
this -- this can be a slippery slope if we start going that. I want to
see impacts on the community, because there is an impact, as it being
a hotel, and what's that in comparison to converting it to year-round
housing.
And so I'd like to -- I'd like to see that comparison but also be
able -- and when I say an "abbreviated conditional use," that will
August 22, 2023
Page 221
allow us to give consideration to the nearby surrounding area and
those impacts, positive and negative, that come from that conversion.
MR. FRENCH: This will be coming back to you. They've
already made application for a Planned Unit Development
amendment, so we'll be going through the public process. The
neighborhood information meetings would be required. They have
already reached out to -- I know they've already reached out to many
of you as well as some local employers and the Golden Gate Area
Civic Association.
I know they've really -- they're in town. They've made a lot of
investment into the community just to make sure that the community
is behind them. So this may be -- fingers crossed, this may be a
good model to follow with another attainable housing option, but
perhaps they'll set the path on how to do it right.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Great.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Kowal, did you
have something you wanted to comment on?
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Yeah. I just wanted to kind of
follow up on my colleagues here. Yeah -- and I'm very familiar with
the situation with some of these older hotels here in Collier County.
And, you know, there's been a few here in East Naples that I was
very familiar with. And, you know, the sad part is they operate
under the hotel/motel licensing through the State, and the majority of
these things are residential properties. We just don't see it. They're
circumventing it already.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Right.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: You know, they give these guys
a daily rate, then they pay once a month. They live in these hotel
rooms. And I've seen it in my 20 years of being a deputy here. And
I'm familiar with the hotel we're talking about right now, and they
have done that in the past.
August 22, 2023
Page 222
So, you know, bringing somebody in -- and I had the
opportunity to sit down with these developers, too, and I think the
product they showed me was pretty impressive, and, you know, the
amenities that comes along with it.
And it is, I think it's geared towards our young starting out, law
enforcement, firefighters, the single bachelor type, you know, and
they don't need much. You know, especially guys coming out of the
military. I lived in a barracks, and I know what it's like, you know,
to live in -- you have a bed, a wall locker, a foot looker, I mean, that
was -- and a bathroom three people shared, you know. So, you
know, that's kind of what young people do sometimes when you're
starting out till you get your foot in the ground and you move forward
and move up.
So I think, you know, this could help us a little bit moving
forward. And I think, you know, we look at -- and the language is,
you know, to kind of keep from the tiny house concept but, you
know, just restricting it to just the conversion process of these
particular hotel/motel type buildings that have the potential to be
something like this. So, you know, kind of just stay on the gun so
we don't create something else in the language, so -- but I definitely
look forward to us visiting this.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Yep.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay.
MR. FRENCH: Appreciate it. We'll be bringing you
something back. And appreciate your trust in us. We are trying to
be as creative and as least harmful as possible. Let's put it like that,
so...
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: We don't really -- least
harmful or at least harmful?
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Yeah, we don't really trust
you, but -- don't make that assumption.
August 22, 2023
Page 223
MR. FRENCH: That's why we had Jaime Cook up here on the
Conservation Collier system, sir.
MS. PATTERSON: Chair, do you want to call the vote on that
one?
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Oh, yeah. Okay. So do I
have -- a motion to approve?
MS. PATTERSON: You have a motion and a second yeah.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Do I have a motion to
approve?
MS. PATTERSON: You have one.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Oh, that's right, and then you guys
kept talking. So all in favor?
COMMISSIONER HALL: Aye.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Aye.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: Aye.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: It passes unanimously.
And who made the motion and the second for the record? Do
you have it, Terri?
THE COURT REPORTER: (Nods head.)
(The motion was made by Commissioner Saunders and
seconded by Commissioner McDaniel.)
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Are you kidding me? She
writes down all my misspoken words.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: What's next?
Item #15C
STAFF AND COMMISSION GENERAL COMMUNICATIONS
August 22, 2023
Page 224
MS. PATTERSON: Commissioners, that brings us to the staff
and Commission general communications.
And we just have a couple of things for you. We'll be back
next meeting with an update on our towers. I know that's of
particular interest to all of you, so we'll get a staff update on that.
You'll be getting an update -- we'll schedule an update on the
Paradise Coast. You'd asked for more frequent updates on the sports
complex. They're going to the -- or went to the TDC, so we'll bring
some information to the next Board meeting on that one as well.
You will continue to see the Conservation Collier items come
onto the agenda. We have another group of properties scheduled for
the next meeting as they make their way through the acquisition and
contract process.
And Dan will give you just a really quick update on what's
going on with our marinas.
MR. RODRIGUEZ: Thank you, County Manager.
Our vendor's actually off to a great start. They've stocked Isles
of Capri. This is the vendor -- the concessions for boat ramps.
So Port of the Isle, the concession is up and running. They're
selling fuel. They fixed the bait tank. They're providing different
goods: Water, ice, and whatnot. And as she continues, or they
continue, they'll have more goods for sale, and I think you'll see it
return to what it used to be here very shortly.
In addition to that, Goodland is up and running as well with the
same level of service: Fuel, bait, and goods.
So they've committed to us, thanks to Tanya Williams, Olema
Edwards, and her assistant director, in our meetings they have
committed that they're going to have a very good service for the
County to serve, so...
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Great.
August 22, 2023
Page 225
MS. PATTERSON: The last item, we have a large piece of
property out in the eastern part of county that we were interested in
several months ago when it went up for sale. Unfortunately, at that
time it was grabbed pretty quickly by somebody more nimble than us.
That contract actually fell through. It's a property that the Sheriff is
also interested in, so we'll be -- with your permission, be working
with that property owner to work on some negotiations and bring that
back to you. Obviously, we'll only go so far to construct a deal that
then you can take a look at and direct us either to move forward with
due diligence or not.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: I'll just add, don't forget about the
rock crushing lot. I mean, I think we've probably got some -- right,
anybody back there?
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: They're almost done.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. What else?
MS. PATTERSON: That's all I have.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Go around the room?
MS. PATTERSON: County Attorney?
MR. KLATZKOW: Nothing. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. Commissioner Kowal.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I'd just like to say that I think we
all exercised our minds today from pickleball all the way to the
constitutional law.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Yeah. It was quite the menagerie
of topics.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I'm looking forward to having
dinner tonight.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Saunders.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: I have nothing to add,
Mr. Chairman. Just thank the Board for a good meeting today. A
little bit long, but very productive.
August 22, 2023
Page 226
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner Hall.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Good day for Collier County.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Commissioner McDaniel.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: Nothing further, sir.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: You know, just the beauty of this
group is, you know, we agree to disagree but -- I mean, I haven't been
up here as long as Commissioner McDaniel and Commissioner
Saunders, but, you know, the two years I was in different seats, I just
didn't feel the mojo as much up here, and I just think the camaraderie
and the professionalism and the mutual respect is what leads to
positive outcomes, whether we agree or disagree. And I don't think
anybody can dispute that, you know, we have five professionals up
here really take this job seriously, and I think it shows to the citizens.
Yeah, there are some people that are unhappy today, and I know
we're going to get a bunch of emails, but that's how government
works. But up here I think that mutual respect for each other shows.
And so I appreciate -- today was a really great discussion and, you
know, we move on to another day, and there's plenty of things to do
in the county. This is -- today wasn't the only thing we're going to
get accomplished, that's for sure. And a lot of big things coming our
way, too, as we know.
COMMISSIONER SAUNDERS: Mr. Chairman, I was
thinking about going to Seed to Table tonight if anybody would like
to join me.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: You are a gluten for punishment.
COMMISSIONER McDANIEL: So you go first.
COMMISSIONER HALL: Yeah, play pickleball first.
COMMISSIONER KOWAL: I'll go with you.
CHAIRMAN LoCASTRO: Okay. We're adjourned. Thank
you.
*****
August 22, 2023
Page 227
**** Commissioner Hall moved, seconded by Commissioner
McDaniel, and carried that the following items under the consent and
summary agendas be approved and/or adopted ****
Item #16A1
APPROVE FOR RECORDING THE FINAL PLAT OF
ESPLANADE BY THE ISLANDS – GIARDINO DRIVE,
APPLICATION NUMBER PL20230008089, APPROVAL OF THE
STANDARD FORM CONSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE
AGREEMENT, AND APPROVAL OF THE PERFORMANCE
SECURITY IN THE AMOUNT OF $2,226,936.80 – LOCATED IN
SECTION 13, TOWNSHIP 51 SOUTH, RANGE 26 EAST AND
SECTION 18, TOWNSHIP 51 SOUTH RANGE 27 EAST
Item #16A2
RESOLUTION 2023-144: A RESOLUTION FOR FINAL
ACCEPTANCEOF THE PRIVATE ROADWAY AND DRAINAGE
IMPROVEMENTS, AND ACCEPTANCE OF THE PLAT
DEDICATIONS, FOR THE FINAL PLAT OF MUSSORIE
VILLAGE AT FIDDLER’S CREEK, APPLICATION NUMBER
PL20140000591 (FP) AND APPLICATION NUMBER
PL20140000367 (ICP), AND, AND AUTHORIZE THE RELEASE
OF THE MAINTENANCE SECURITY IN THE AMOUNT OF
$15,147.09
Item #16A3
RESOLUTION 2023- 145: APPROVE A RESOLUTION FOR
FINAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE PRIVATE ROADWAY AND
August 22, 2023
Page 228
DRAINAGE IMPROVEMENTS, AND ACCEPTANCE OF THE
PLAT DEDICATIONS, FOR THE FINAL PLAT OF MARQUESA
ISLES OF NAPLES, APPLICATION NUMBER PL20160002811,
AND AUTHORIZE THE RELEASE OF THE MAINTENANCE
SECURITY IN THE AMOUNT OF $197,105.10
Item #16A4
FINAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE POTABLE WATER AND
SEWER UTILITY FACILITIES FOR THE QUARRY BEACH
CLUB, PL20230007383 - INSPECTION TO DISCOVER DEFECTS
IN MATERIALS AND WORKMANSHIP WAS CONDUCTED BY
STAFF ON JULY 13, 2023, IN COORDINATION WITH PUBLIC
UTILITIES, AND THESE FACILITIES ARE SATISFACTORY
AND ACCEPTABLE
Item #16A5
APPROVE FINAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE POTABLE WATER
UTILITY FACILITIES AND ACCEPT THE CONVEYANCE OF
THE WATER FACILITIES FOR THE CLUB AT MEDITERRA
IMPROVEMENTS – GOLF LEARNING, PL20220005573 -
INSPECTION TO DISCOVER DEFECTS IN MATERIALS AND
WORKMANSHIP WAS CONDUCTED BY STAFF ON JANUARY
27, 2023, IN COORDINATION WITH PUBLIC UTILITIES, AND
THESE FACILITIES ARE SATISFACTORY AND ACCEPTABLE
Item #16A6
THE CHAIRMAN EXECUTE AMENDMENT NO. 1 TO RENEW
AND EXTEND THE PEPPER RANCH PRESERVE VOLUNTEER
August 22, 2023
Page 229
CAMP HOST AGREEMENT FOR ONE ADDITIONAL YEAR
Item #16A7 – Moved to 11E (Per Agenda Change Sheet)
Item #16A8
APPROVE THE CONSERVATION COLLIER PANTHER WALK
PRESERVE MULTI-PARCEL PROJECT FINAL MANAGEMENT
PLAN UPDATE UNDER THE CONSERVATION COLLIER
PROGRAM - EAST OF EVERGLADES BLVD BETWEEN
IMMOKALEE RD AND 56TH AVE NE
Item #16B1
APPROVE AN AGREEMENT FOR THE PURCHASE OF A
DRAINAGE EASEMENT (PARCEL 154DE) REQUIRED FOR
THE WEST GOODLETTE-FRANK ROAD AREA
STORMWATER IMPROVEMENT PROJECT PHASE 2
(PROJECT NO. 60142). ESTIMATED FISCAL IMPACT: $24,500.
(THIS ITEM IS A COMPANION TO ITEM 16B2)
Item #16B2
APPROVE AN AGREEMENT FOR THE PURCHASE OF A
DRAINAGE EASEMENT (PARCEL 144DE) REQUIRED FOR
THE WEST GOODLETTE-FRANK ROAD AREA
STORMWATER IMPROVEMENT PROJECT PHASE 2
(PROJECT NO. 60142). ESTIMATED FISCAL IMPACT:
$13,750. (THIS ITEM IS A COMPANION TO ITEM 16.B.1)
Item #16B3
August 22, 2023
Page 230
AWARD INVITATION TO BID (“ITB”) NO. 23-8099,
“VETERANS MEMORIAL BOULEVARD PHASE I - PROPOSED
NOISE BARRIER WALL,” TO COASTAL CONCRETE
PRODUCTS, LLC, IN THE AMOUNT OF $1,941,993.75, AND
AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO SIGN THE ATTACHED
AGREEMENT
Item #16B4
APPROVE AND AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO EXECUTE
AN AGREEMENT FOR THE PURCHASE OF A ROAD RIGHT
OF WAY, DRAINAGE, AND UTILITY EASEMENT (PARCEL
515RDUE) REQUIRED FOR THE EVERGLADES BOULEVARD
NORTH AND 43RD AVENUE NORTHEAST INTERSECTION
IMPROVEMENTS PROJECT (PROJECT NO. 60256).
ESTIMATED FISCAL IMPACT: $33,421.46
Item #16B5
APPROPRIATE AN ADDITIONAL $2,667 TO THE COLLIER
METROPOLITAN PLANNING ORGANIZATION’S ANNUAL
OPERATING BUDGET FOR FY 23/24 AND AUTHORIZE THE
NECESSARY BUDGET AMENDMENT
Item #16B6
APPROVE AN AMENDMENT TO AN EASEMENT
AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE COUNTY AND VANDERBILT
COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC., THAT PROVIDED FOR
THE ACQUISITION OF PARCELS 111RDUE1, 111RDUE2,
111TCE, 111TDRE, AND 101TCE, REQUIRED FOR
August 22, 2023
Page 231
CONSTRUCTION OF ROADWAY AND RELATED
IMPROVEMENTS TO VANDERBILT BEACH ROAD (PROJECT
NO. 60168). ESTIMATED FISCAL IMPACT: NONE
Item #16B7
APPROVE AND AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO SIGN AN
ADDENDUM TO GRANT AGREEMENT NO. RT015 BETWEEN
THE COUNTY AND THE FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION (FDEP) FOR BIOLOGICAL
DEBRIS REMOVAL ASSOCIATED WITH RED TIDE WITHIN
COLLIER COUNTY TO ALLOW THE EXISTING AGREEMENT
TO REMAIN ACTIVE AND TO APPROVE AN INTER-LOCAL
AGREEMENT FOR BIOLOGICAL DEBRIS REMOVAL
BETWEEN THE COUNTY AND THE CITY OF NAPLES –
PROJECT NO. 33851 AND GRANT FUND 1841
Item #16B8
APPROVE AN UPDATED COLLIER AREA TRANSIT (CAT)
TRANSIT ASSET MANAGEMENT (TAM) PLAN AND PUBLIC
TRANSPORTATION AGENCY SAFETY PLAN (PTASP) TO
REFLECT AND IDENTIFY THE NEW PUBLIC TRANSIT &
NEIGHBORHOOD ENHANCEMENT (PTNE) DIVISION
DIRECTOR, BRIAN WELLS, AS THE ACCOUNTABLE
EXECUTIVE, TO ENSURE COMPLIANCE WITH 49 C.F.R.
PARTS 625 AND 673
Item #16D1
APPROVE AND AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO SIGN A
August 22, 2023
Page 232
MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING (MOU) BETWEEN
COLLIER COUNTY AND THE COLLIER COUNTY HUNGER
AND HOMELESS COALITION, INC., TO ALLOW STAFF TO
PARTICIPATE IN THE CONTINUUM OF CARE WEEKLY
CLIENT MEETING (HOUSING GRANT FUND 1835)
Item #16D2
APPROVE AND AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO SIGN FOUR
(4) EMERGENCY SOLUTIONS GRANTS CV AGREEMENT
AMENDMENTS BETWEEN COLLIER COUNTY AND (1) NAMI
COLLIER COUNTY, INC., (ES20-05), (2 & 3) THE SHELTER
FOR ABUSED WOMEN & CHILDREN, INC., FOR ES20-04 AND
ES22-01, AND (4) COLLIER COUNTY HUNGER & HOMELESS
COALITION, INC., (ES21-02) IN RESPONSE TO ADDITIONAL
HUD GUIDANCE PUBLISHED IN THE COMMUNITY
PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT (CPD) MONITORING
HANDBOOK (6509.2): CARES ACT (ESG-CV)
Item #16E1
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS TO RATIFY
AGREEMENTS AND AUTHORIZE NECESSARY BUDGET
AMENDMENT FOR THE EXECUTED MEMORANDUM OF
UNDERSTANDING (MOU) BETWEEN COLLIER COUNTY
EMERGENCY MEDICALSERVICE (EMS) FOR THE PUBLIC
HEALTH INFRASTRUCTURE TO DECREASE ARP21-06
(PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY OPERATIONS AND
RESPONSE PROGRAM) BY THE AMOUNT OF $1,000,000 AND
TO INCREASE ARP21-23 (COLLIER PUBLIC HEALTH
INFRASTRUCTURE PROGRAM) IN THE AMOUNT OF
August 22, 2023
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$1,000,000 WITHIN THE EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES
GRANT FUND (4053) FOR THE PURCHASE OF EQUIPMENT
AND DELIVERY COSTS OF UP TO FOUR NEW
AMBULANCES AND FOUR LIGHT BODY TRUCKS UNDER
THE AMERICAN RESCUE PLAN ACT, LOCAL FISCAL
RECOVERY FUND
Item #16F1
RESOLUTION 2023-146: A RESOLUTION APPROVING
AMENDMENTS (APPROPRIATING GRANTS, DONATIONS,
CONTRIBUTIONS, OR INSURANCE PROCEEDS) TO THE
FISCAL YEAR 2022-23 ADOPTED BUDGET. (THE BUDGET
AMENDMENTS IN THE ATTACHED RESOLUTION HAVE
BEEN REVIEWED AND APPROVED BY THE BOARD OF
COUNTY COMMISSIONERS VIA SEPARATE EXECUTIVE
SUMMARIES.)
Item #16F2
APPROVE THE PROPOSED COLLIER COUNTY STATE
APPROPRIATIONS PROJECT REQUESTS TO BE PART OF THE
BOARD’S STATE AND FEDERAL LEGISLATIVE AND
ADMINISTRATIVE PRIORITIES FOR 2024
Item #16F3
AWARD INVITATION TO BID (“ITB”) NO. 23-8061R, “HVAC
MAINTENANCE AND REMEDIAL REPAIRS,” TO B & I
CONTRACTORS, INC., AND AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO
SIGN THE ATTACHED AGREEMENT
August 22, 2023
Page 234
Item #16F4
AWARD REQUEST FOR QUOTES (“RFQ”) FOR THE
“GROWTH MANAGEMENT COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT
DEPARTMENT FRONT AND WALKWAY CANOPY” PROJECT,
UNDER AGREEMENT NO. 19-7525, THE ANNUAL
AGREEMENT FOR GENERAL CONTRACTORS, TO EBL
PARTNERS, LLC., AND AUTHORIZE THE ISSUANCE OF A
NUMBERED PURCHASE ORDER IN THE AMOUNT OF
$449,570.87
Item #16F5
AWARD INVITATION TO BID (“ITB”) NO. 23-8146, “BOTTLED
DRINKING WATER, DISPENSERS, AND CUPS,” TO LOW
BIDDER D.T. WATER, LLC D/B/A MAST FAMILY CULLIGAN,
AND AUTHORIZE STAFF TO OPEN A STANDARD COUNTY
PURCHASE ORDER BASED ON THE UNIT PRICES PROVIDED
Item #16F6
TERMINATE PROFESSIONAL SERVICES AGREEMENT NO.
20-7749, “DESIGN SERVICES FOR DOMESTIC ANIMAL
SERVICES FACILITY,” WITH ADG ARCHITECTURE, LLC
Item #16F7
APPROVE A REPORT COVERING BUDGET AMENDMENTS
IMPACTING RESERVES UP TO AND INCLUDING $25,000,
AND MOVING FUNDS IN AN AMOUNT UP TO AND
August 22, 2023
Page 235
INCLUDING $50,000
Item #16F8
APPROVE SPENDING UP TO $50,000 FOR APPRAISAL AND
PRE-CONTRACT EXPENSES FOR DUE DILIGENCE AND
AUTHORIZE STAFF TO TRANSMIT A NON-BINDING LETTER
OF INTENT TO COMMENCE NEGOTIATIONS FOR THE
PURCHASE OF 2,247 +/- ACRES OF PROPERTY AT WILLIAMS
RESERVE AT LAKE TRAFFORD LOCATED IN IMMOKALEE
FOR CONSERVATION, PARKS AND RECREATION,
TRANSPORTATION, STORMWATER MANAGEMENT,
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, AND CO-LOCATION OF FIRE
OPERATIONS WITH A POTENTIAL PARTNERSHIP WITH
IMMOKALEE FIRE AND RESCUE DISTRICT, AND
AUTHORIZE NECESSARY BUDGET AMENDMENT
Item #16G1
THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, ACTING AS
THE COLLIER COUNTY AIRPORT AUTHORITY, APPROVE
AND AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO EXECUTE A UTILITY
EASEMENT TO LEE COUNTY ELECTRIC COOPERATIVE,
INC., (LCEC) AT THE IMMOKALEE REGIONAL AIRPORT TO
PROVIDE ELECTRICITY TO A TENANT'S AIRCRAFT
HANGARS AND FLIGHT SCHOOL OFFICES
Item #16J1
THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS SERVE AS THE
LOCAL COORDINATING UNIT OF GOVERNMENT FOR THE
August 22, 2023
Page 236
FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT’S
FEDERAL FISCAL YEAR 2022 EDWARD BYRNE MEMORIAL,
JUSTICE ASSISTANCE GRANT (JAG) COUNTYWIDE
PROGRAM AND (1) AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO
EXECUTE THE CERTIFICATION OF PARTICIPATION; (2)
DESIGNATE THE SHERIFF AS THE OFFICIAL APPLICANT
AND THE SHERIFF’S OFFICE STAFF AS GRANT FINANCIAL
AND PROGRAM MANAGERS; (3) AUTHORIZE THE
ACCEPTANCE OF THE GRANT IF AND WHEN AWARDED;
AND (4) APPROVE ASSOCIATED BUDGET AMENDMENTS
AND APPROVE THE COLLIER COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE
TO RECEIVE AND EXPEND THE GRANT FUNDS
Item #16J2
TO RECORD IN THE MINUTES OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY
COMMISSIONERS, THE CHECK NUMBER (OR OTHER
PAYMENT METHOD), AMOUNT, PAYEE, AND PURPOSE FOR
WHICH THE REFERENCED DISBURSEMENTS WERE DRAWN
FOR THE PERIODS BETWEEN JULY 27, 2023, AND AUGUST
09, 2023 PURSUANT TO FLORIDA STATUTE 136.06
Item #16J3
THE BOARD APPROVE AND DETERMINE VALID PUBLIC
PURPOSE FOR INVOICES PAYABLE AND PURCHASING
CARD TRANSACTIONS AS OF AUGUST 16, 2023
Item #16K1
APPROVE AND AUTHORIZE THE CHAIRMAN TO EXECUTE
August 22, 2023
Page 237
A SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT IN THE AMOUNT OF $22,500
TO SETTLE THE LAWSUIT STYLED JOSEPH FRANTZ V.
COLLIER COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS,
CASE NO. 2:22-CV-300 NOW PENDING IN THE UNITED
STATES DISTRICT COURT, MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
FORT MYERS DIVISION
Item #16L1
THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, ACTING AS
THE COMMUNITY REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY BOARD
(CRA), APPROVE A SIX-MONTH EXTENSION OF THE
PROJECT COMPLETION DATE SET FORTH IN THE
COMMERCIAL BUILDING IMPROVEMENT GRANT (CBIG)
AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CRA AND SOUTHERN REGION
DEVELOPMENT, LLC, FOR THE PROPERTY LOCATED AT
2600 DAVIS BOULEVARD, NAPLES, FLORIDA 34112
LOCATED WITHIN THE BAYSHORE GATEWAY TRIANGLE
COMMUNITY REDEVELOPMENT AREA
Item #17A
ORDINANCE 2023-38: ADOPT AN AMENDMENT TO THE
"REGULATION OF OUTDOOR BURNING AND INCENDIARY
DEVICES DURING DROUGHT CONDITIONS ORDINANCE"
(ORD. 2009-23, AS AMENDED) IN ORDER TO AUTHORIZE
THE CHAIR OR, IN HIS OR HER ABSENCE, THE VICE-CHAIR
TO REVOKE AN EXISTING BURN BAN BY RESOLUTION
*****
August 22, 2023
There being no further business for the good of the County, the
meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 5:39 p.m.
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS/EX
OFFICIO GOVERNING BOARD(S) OF
SPECIAL DISTRICTS UNDER ITS CONTROL
RICK LoCASTRO, CHAIRMAN
ATTEST
CRYSTAL K. KINZEL, CLERK
most as to Chairman's
signature only
These minutes appro d by the Board on % - g , as
presented or as corrected
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF FORT MYERS
COURT REPORTING BY TERRI L. LEWIS, REGISTERED
PROFESSIONAL COURT REPORTER, FPR-C, AND
NOTARY PUBLIC.
Page 238