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CCPC Minutes 09/06/2007 R September 6, 2007 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION Naples, Florida September 6, 2007 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Planning Commission in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 8:30 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Mark Strain Lindy Adelstein Donna Reed Caron Tor Kolflat Paul Midney Robert Murray Brad Schiffer Russell Tuff Robert Vigliotti ALSO PRESENT: Ray Bellows, Zoning & Land Dev. Review Joseph Schmitt, Community Dev. & Env. Services Marjorie Student-Stirling, Assistant County Attorney Nick Casalinguida, Transportation Planning Page 1 AGENDA Revised COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION WILL MEET AT 8:30 A.M., THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 6,2007, IN THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS MEETING ROOM, ADMINISTRATION BUILDING, COUNTY GOVERNMENT CENTER, 3301 TAMIAMI TRAIL EAST, NAPLES, FLORIDA: NOTE: INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS WILL BE LIMITED TO 5 MINUTES ON ANY ITEM. INDIVIDUALS SELECTED TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF AN ORGANIZATION OR GROUP ARE ENCOURAGED AND MAY BE ALLOTTED 10 MINUTES TO SPEAK ON AN ITEM IF SO RECOGNIZED BY THE CHAIRMAN. PERSONS WISHING TO HAVE WRITTEN OR GRAPHIC MATERIALS INCLUDED IN THE CCPC AGENDA PACKETS MUST SUBMIT SAID MATERIAL A MINIMUM OF 10 DAYS PRIOR TO THE RESPECTIVE PUBLIC HEARING. IN ANY CASE, WRITTEN MATERIALS INTENDED TO BE CONSIDERED BY THE CCPC SHALL BE SUBMITTED TO THE APPROPRIATE COUNTY STAFF A MINIMUM OF SEVEN DAYS PRIOR TO THE PUBLIC HEARING. ALL MATERIAL USED IN PRESENTATIONS BEFORE THE CCPC WILL BECOME A PERMANENT PART OF THE RECORD AND WILL BE A V AILABLE FOR PRESENTATION TO THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS IF APPLICABLE. ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THE CCPC WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THE TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPe''' WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE 2. ROLL CALL BY CLERK 3. ADDENDA TO THE AGENDA 4. PLANNING COMMISSION ABSENCES 5. APPROVAL OF MINUTES - mLY 19,2007, REGULAR MEETING; JULY 19,2007, MORATORIUM MEETING; JULY 25, 2007, SPECIAL MEETING LDC 6. BCC REPORT- RECAPS - Not Available At This Time 7. CHAIRMAN'S REPORT 8. ADVERTISED PUBLIC HEARINGS A. Petition: SV-2007-AR-I 1349. Bre LQ FL Properties, LLC, represented by Robert D. Pritt of Roetzel & Andress, LPA, is requesting a variance from the maximum 12 square-foot area and eight-foot height requirement for off-premises directional signs to replace an existing directory sign that was damaged by hurricane Wilma with a new off-premises directional LaQuinta Inn & Suites sign. The proposed sign would be is located at 185 Bedzel Circle, in Section 34, Township 49 South, Range 26 East, Collier County, Florida. (Coordinator: John-David Moss) B. Petition: PUDZ-2005-AR-7883. Habitat for Humanity of Collier County, Inc., represented by Dwight Nadeau, of RW A, Inc., is requesting a rezone to the Habitat-Woodcrest RPUD on 11.2 acres ofland from the Agricultural (A) Zoning District, to allow for a maximum 66 residential units. The subject property is located on the west side of Woodcrest Drive, south of Immokalee, just north of Acremaker Road, in Section 26, Township 48 South, Range 26 East, Collier County, Florida. (Coordinator: John-David Moss) 1 September 6, 2007 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Good morning, everyone, Welcome to the September 6th meeting of the Collier County Planning Commission, If you'll all please rise for the pledge of allegiance, (Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison,) Item #2 ROLL CALL CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, If we could have roll call by our secretary, COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Kolflat? COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Here, COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Schiffer? COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Here, COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Midney? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Here, COMMISSIONER CARON: Ms, Caron is here, Mr. Strain? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Here, COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Adelstein? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Here, COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Murray? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yes, COMMISSIONER CARON: Mr. Vigliotti? COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Here, COMMISSIONER CARON: And Mr. TuffI'm told will be here later. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, Item #3 Page 2 September 6, 2007 ADDENDA TO THE AGENDA Addenda to the agenda, Let me, just for the audience's sake, I'll run through the agenda today, We have our regular petitions in the morning and we have one continuing one that will have to be continued, It's Petition PUDZ-2005-AR-7883, the Habitat For Humanity of Collier County, And it's the project offWoodcrest Drive, south of Immokalee Road, just north of Acremaker Road, That proj ect will be continued, And Ray, was that until September 20th, or just going to be continued? MR. BELLOWS: That would be September 20th, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Why don't we dismiss with that one first. Is there a motion to approve the continuance of that? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: So moved, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Made by Commissioner Adelstein, Seconded by? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: (Indicating,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Commissioner Murray, Discussion? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All in favor, signify by saying aye, COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye, COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye, COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? Page 3 September 6, 2007 (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries, that petition is continued, After that we have a petition regarding the potable water sub-element. Following that, we're going to have a discussion on the school board -- school system concurrency overview, a presentation by staff. Then we'll be adjourning this meeting and reopening a continued meeting for the LDC amendments that will follow this morning's meeting, So that will be the agenda for today and how we'll proceed through it. Item #4 PLANNING COMMISSION ABSENCES Our next regular meeting of the planning commission is September 20th, As far as commission absences, does anybody know if they will not be here on the 20th? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Looks like we'll have a quorum then, Item #5 APPROVAL OF MINUTES - JULY 19,2007, REGULAR MEETING; JULY 19,2007 MORATORIUM MEETING AND JULY 25,2007, SPECIAL MEETING LDC Then we have the approval for the minutes, The first set we received is July 19th, 2007, Is there a motion to approve? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: So moved, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion made by Commissioner Adelstein, Page 4 September 6, 2007 Is there a second? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: (Indicating.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Second by Commissioner Murray, All those in favor, signify by saying aye, COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye, COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye, COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries. July 19th, we have minutes of the moratorium meeting, Is there a motion to recommend approval? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: So moved, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Made by Commissioner Adelstein, Seconded by? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: (Indicating,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Commissioner Murray, Any comment? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All those in favor, signify by saying aye. COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye, COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye, COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye, Page 5 September 6, 2007 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries, Last meeting we have our minutes for is July 25th, 2007, Ms, Caron? COMMISSIONER CARON: I just had a couple of things, On Page 8, the word about halfway down on the page, the words are intense, not intenses, And it's twice, the S should be removed, And on Page 24, it should be -- at the very bottom of the page it should be Commissioner Strain, not Chairman Coletta -- or Chairman Strain, not Chairman Coletta, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: We must look alike, huh? He starts getting a beard, we've got problems, Okay, any other corrections? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Hearing none, is there a motion to recommend for approval? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: So moved, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Adelstein made the motion, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: (Indicating,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray seconded, Thank you, Mr. Murray, Any further discussion? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All those in favor, signify by saying aye, COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye, COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye, Page 6 September 6, 2007 COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries, Item #6 BCC REPORT - RECAPS BCC reports, Ray, none available at this time? MR. BELLOWS: That's correct. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, that's a good report, Item #7 CHAIRMAN'S REPORT Chairman's report, I have a question I'd like to ask you all, In October we have our AUIR meeting, They start with a joint productivity committee meeting like we had last year. And in last year, as you know, we had a table set up in front of this dais in a circle, or square, actually, And in that case some of our backs were to the public, our backs many times were to the speakers, and it was pretty cramped and congested, It did not seem to be a good forum in which it invited interaction, Last year we didn't have a lot of public here, This year there's been pleas made to the public to please attend and participate in our meeting, I don't know if that's going to happen, But I also know that it takes a lot of time for staff to bring tables in and set this room up and that having your back to an audience or to speakers isn't easy and comfortable for many of us, Page 7 September 6, 2007 So I was wondering if you all would mind, and I'll talk to the productivity committee as well and get their concurrence, if you all agree, that we move the meeting for the AUIR over to the conference room at developmental services, That will be set up easier, it will save money for staff, it will save time for staff because the staff will be right there in the same building, and so they haven't got to sit through the entire meeting, They could get there when their issues came up, I think in the long run it would be more productive, And I understand that the sound system over there has been improved, Mr. Murray? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: That's room 61 O? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I don't know what the number is, It's-- COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Where we met before? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Right. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I know that they had a limitation -- now of course you're saying they've improved it, but they had a limitation on the number of mics they had, They only had eight for our nine to begin with, And I don't know whether that they have adequate -- it seemed pretty cramped when we were there alone, I don't see how you can achieve much better situation there, We still probably would have to go into a square or some kind of a rectangle, Some kind of -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I was thinking we could do like a U -shaped or a horseshoe so that at least we have an open area and the interaction with the public could be more informal. And they have told us, and I've asked Mr. -- Commissioner Adelstein in particular to go over and check it out, because he had the complaint prior to this about the sound. They have said that the sound system has been fixed, it's improved and working well, I just think it would be a savings for everybody and less inconvenience for staff. Because I would hate to see staff to sit through days of meetings when we only need them for a certain Page 8 September 6, 2007 amount of time, To me it seemed like a good way to save money and move productively, COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: I'm not against it. I'm just questioning that aspect of it. Other than that, I don't disagree with it, I just wanted you to -- if we're going to do it because we're going to gain something, I hope in fact we do gain something, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schmitt, has that room been improved under your -- MR. SCHMITT: There's a complete new sound system, At least 15 microphones, digital recording system, speakers put in the ceiling, It can be set up certainly more room than you have here in the front. It can be set up in a U-shape, Probably for the presenters -- and the podium can be set up as well, or lectern, And the -- I can have either the pull-down screen or probably preferable the flat screen TV's set up for any presentation -- COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Sounds good, MR. SCHMITT: -- both to the public and to the panel. So that -- and it is probably from a standpoint of interchange more conducive to a workshop type of environment than sitting in the front here, I would agree with you there in that regard. The only drawback, of course, is here you're going to have live -- televised live, There it will be taped, But it's a -- they'll bring in the cameras for taping for an airing at a different time, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Nobody calls in while we're in session anyway, so I don't think that is a detriment, so -- Mr. Kolflat? COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: I make a motion we move the AUIR meetings over to the community development offices, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Is there a second to that? COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: (Indicating,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr, Vigliotti seconded, Now, any further discussion? Mr. Adelstein, did you have any comments? You had your hand Page 9 September 6, 2007 up earlier. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: No, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, anything else? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Now, what I'd like to do, and I know we have a motion, but I'd really like to get the productivity's concurrence on this, productivity committee's concurrence, I can't imagine them not thinking this is a -- COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Amend my motion to subject to approval by the concurrency, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: By the productivity committee? COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Right. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Mr. Vigliotti, you okay with that? COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: (Nods head affirmatively,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, with that, any discussion? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Hearing none, all in favor, signify by saymg aye, COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye, COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye, COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries, Okay, thank you, I think that will be a savings and more efficient for everyone, Page 10 September 6, 2007 Item #8A PETITION: SV-2007-AR-11349 Next we'll go into our advertised public hearings, The first one of which is Petition SV-2007-AR-11349, It's the Bre LQ Florida Properties, LLC for a new off-premise directional sign, LaQuinta Inn and Suites sign at 185 Bedzel Circle, All those wishing to speak on behalf of this petition, please rise to be sworn in by the court reporter. (Speakers were duly sworn,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, Are there any disclosures on the part of planning commission? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Hearing none, the applicant is ready for their presentation, MR. PRITT: Yes, Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the planning commission, My name is Robert Pritt. I'm with the law firm of Roetzel and Andress, and I'm here on behalf LaQuinta LQ Management, Inc, which is the owner of the LaQuinta Inns, In this particular case we're dealing with a LaQuinta Inn that's located at 185 Bedzel. On Page 3 -- I presume you've all read the staff report, but on Page 3 of the staff report, three of nine, you can get an idea of the location, It's also on the screen here, The location is off of the corner of Collier Boulevard quite a ways, You have to go onto Davis Boulevard and then where it says sign location on Page 3 at the bottom there, the sign is in the middle of that driveway, There's a separated driveway there, and the hotel property is clear in the back of -- in the back and the right where it says hotel property on the aerial. It's quite a ways away from the entrance off of Davis Boulevard, Historically there was a sign, and I think that if you go to Exhibit Page 11 September 6, 2007 B at the end of your report, you can see this is -- what happened is the sign face was blown out by Hurricane Wilma, The -- from the standpoint of the applicant, we thought it was pretty simple, let's go back in and get a new sign face put in, On the original sign the only thing that happened was that at the time it was a Budgetel Hotel, now it's a LaQuinta Hotel. Hotels and motels change hands every now and then. And so all we wanted to do was put the LaQuinta sign in with the LaQuinta logo in essentially the same location, However, I don't know if you can see that or not, but that was -- it turned out in the application process that the sign that was there was a sign that was for Budgetel. It was a 250 square feet sign allowed, It says 80 square feet sign initially with ability to increase to 250 square feet reserved and a maximum 25- foot height also reserved, although the sign was 18 feet high, And it was a sign that was for Budgetel, but it was supposed to be for future tenants also. As it turns out, there are no future tenants, and the sign that was actually there was a full Budgetel sign, according to the information from the staff. The minute after Wilma left, that sign face was gone, and we thought it would be a nice idea just to substitute in the LaQuinta at the same size, Well, of course that's not so easily done, And so we started working with the county staff as to what it was we're actually dealing with, the new sign code that was in effect And we wound up with -- after working quite some time with the staff in trying to do the best we could to be within as close as possible to the new sign code but without losing the ability to identify the property, we finally came in with a sign that is -- and I'll show it here, The sign's eight feet tall and 28 square feet And it's considered -- and I think you have a photograph -- you have a couple photographs of the existing temporary sign, By the way, right after the hurricane we got -- we put up a Page 12 September 6, 2007 temporary sign, and that's what's there now, It's a vinyl type of sign, And that's on Page 4 of9, And that sign is essentially the same sign post and frame as the sign that was blown out by the hurricane, But it just has the sleeve that says LaQuinta on it. And both the county and the -- and LaQuinta would like to get that temporary sign taken care of and a permanent sign that looks good and still allows people to be able to find the hotel -- the motel replaced, And if you look at the sign that has been proposed now, it's only eight feet high, it's 28 square feet, and it's not nearly as visible as the current temporary sign and certainly not as visible as the prior sign. However, we feel that it's the size that's necessary -- the size necessary to be able to continue to have people identify the location of the hotel. We do have, and I'm not sure if it's in your packet or not, but just -- the sign there on the left is in your packet. That's the original sign, The sign in the middle -- or that's the sign with the sleeve on it now, The sign in the middle is a rendering of what a sign would look like if it were the same size, only just using LaQuinta, And then the sign on the right is the sign that we actually are proposing here today, And we've read the staff report, We've -- again, we've had a lot of dealings with staff on this, We agree with the conclusions and the recommendations of the staff in the staff report. We can live with a sign of this nature, And we believe that we meet the criteria that are set forth in the -- in your code, I'd be happy to go through the criteria, if you'd like, but essentially the staffs reasoning and rationale are sound reasonings and rationales as far as we're concerned. We do think that the circumstances were very unique, that is the hurricane that blew out our sign, and we're trying to do the best we can with a smaller sign, Bonnie Kingsbury is the sign person, She came in off of jury duty in Dallas, I guess, But she came in today, She's here to testify and is willing to testify and prepared to testify today as to the need for Page 13 September 6, 2007 the sign at the current size, I'm not sure that that's necessary, but she would be here to answer any questions that you may have. And with that, I'll go ahead and close and answer any questions that you may have, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, Mr. Pritt, Mr. Murray? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Good morning, sir. I may be in error, but when I did a calculation of the rectangular area that is described by that sign, it turned out to like 32,99 square feet, 33 square feet. So I assume that the square footage is associated with the angularity of it? MR, PRITT: Yes, because of the logo, It comes inside because of the LaQuinta logo. And so that's my understanding, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: It would make it very difficult for anybody trying to calculate the true numbers there, Okay, Now, you've indicated that the sign will no longer be necessary for any other tenants as there will be no other tenants, And I -- I'd like to understand how we know that for a fact. MR, PRITT: Well, put it this way: There have been no other tenants using the sign that was there, It was only during the process of applying for a replacement sign, The sign that we had had, that it was discovered that there had actually been a sign that provided for other tenants, So we're applying for instead a directional sign that would simply be for the use it was actually put to. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: If another tenant were to seek to come into that area, what would happen then? MR. PRITT: I don't think that -- COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I'll reserve that question for -- and then there was also this statement on Page 6 of 9 having to do with Item D where it says, the applicant is also permitted an additional similar wall sign facing Collier County -- Collier Boulevard, rather. Page 14 September 6, 2007 Is that -- the way it's written suggests that that doesn't exist and that it could exist. I know that's not the matter before us, but do we have -- I just wanted to have it clear in my mind, do we have a sign facing Collier Boulevard? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: You'll have to identify yourself, ma'am, and then move up to the speaker. MS, KINGSBURY: Bonnie Kingsbury, and I'm from the Dallas corporate office, The sign facing Collier Boulevard, I don't believe we have put anything up presently, And I've not permitted for it. I don't think that is going to replace the need for this directional entrance, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: That's what I'm trying to ascertain, whether or not we're putting a lot of signage or adequate slgnage, MS, KINGSBURY: I've not asked for anything on that particular wall presently, I don't believe there's going to be a need for it. COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay, I thank you, MS, KINGSBURY: I think it would be a legal permit. Yes, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Those are really my questions, I just was curious if we ever get any other tenants in there what we would do, but the staff will have to answer that question, thank you, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Kolflat? COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Was there any analysis done to be sure that the sign was large enough for traffic to safely decelerate as it approached the entry area? MS, KINGSBURY: No, No, we did not do an analysis, COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Because my concern is if the sign can be small from one standpoint, that's desirable, From the other standpoint from safety and automobile traffic, it could be a detriment. MS, KINGSBURY: I agree, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody else have any questions of the applicant at this time? Page 15 September 6, 2007 (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, thank you, And we'll hear from staff at this point. MR. MOSS: Good morning, Commissioners, For the record, John-David Moss, Department of Zoning and Land Development Review. Staff has reviewed the variance according to the evaluative criteria pursuant to Section 9,04,03 of the LDC, and is recommending approval of the 16- foot square variance, due to the fact that the proposed sign is in harmony with the purpose and intent of the LDC and the Growth Management Plan, special conditions that are peculiar to the hotel, circumstances not resulting from the actions of the applicant, and physically induced conditions on the site, I wanted to address Mr. Murray's question about the -- if other tenants come into the shopping center. And according to Diana Compagnone, who is our sign expert, you're required to have either eight or 10 shopping center tenants before you can qualify for a directory sign, and the shopping center's built out, so there's no way they could even achieve that number of tenants, So a directory sign wouldn't be possible at any point. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Are there any questions of staff? Mr. Schiffer? COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: It's in -- isn't the -- it's in a part of a PUD which we reviewed, It's not built out at all. What do you mean by that? MR. MOSS: Well, Diana told me that the shopping center could not accommodate enough tenants, I don't -- maybe it's not built out. That was my understanding from her. But perhaps it's not. She did tell me, though -- I asked her that very question, that's how I know, And she did tell me that there's no way they could achieve the number of tenants that would be required in order to have a directory sign, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But would there not be signage Page 16 September 6, 2007 for the shopping center itself and everything else out there? MR. MOSS: There would, But I suppose it would have to be on-site and it couldn't be an off-site sign, which this one is, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: It would probably be part of their site, I mean, this property right now is part of the PUD; is that right? MR. MOSS: Um-hum, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: So essentially, don't PUDs have a master sign plan with them? MR. MOSS: This one doesn't. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, So we have no idea what the future signage in that area is going to be, MR, MOSS: Well, just whatever is permitted by the LDC. There was no sign plan that accompanied this PUD, And I don't know if that's because they weren't done at the time this PUD was approved back in the Eighties, But Ray, maybe you can address that? MR. BELLOWS: For the record, Ray Bellows, Zoning Manager. The PUDs don't typically contain sign requirements, That's required at the time of site development plan where they are required for shopping centers to provide an architectural theme sign approval as part of that process, not part of the zoning process, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But this property is part of the PUD, it's owned by the PUD, Obviously they're supporting this, the owners of the property? MR. MOSS: Yes, we have an affidavit in support of it. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I guess my only concern would be stepping on their future, But if they say it's okay, then I'm okay, Thank you, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: David, if there was any changes to this Page 17 September 6, 2007 sign, they would have to come in for either another variance or a new permit; is that correct? MR. MOSS: Yes, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: If there's any new structures built on this PUD that needed a sign, they would have to come in for a permit as well -- MR. MOSS: Yes, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- and be consistent with the code? MR, MOSS: Urn-hum, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So this particular sign's location and all the facts about the sign really will have an impact as an additional calculation to any new signage they come in with, MR. MOSS: Yes, CHAIRMAN STRAIN; Okay, I just wanted to make sure, MR. MOSS: Yeah, they're only permitted one other sign, which you all discussed a moment ago, on the side of the building facing Collier Boulevard, There's not one there now, I have a picture of the building, if you all are interested, There's not one there now, but they could come in and get one, It would be permitted, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, Any other questions? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Are there any members of the public here to speak? MR. BELLOWS: No one has registered, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: With that, we'll close the public hearing and entertain a motion, Anybody have a motion? Mr. Adelstein? COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: I move that AR-11349, LaQuinta, be forwarded to the County Commissioners with a recommendation of approval, subject to the following conditions, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: What conditions? Page 18 September 6, 2007 COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: I'm sorry, subject to the staff recommendations, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Is there a second to the motion? COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: I'll second, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Vigliotti seconded, Is there any discussion? Mr. Kolflat? COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Yeah, I'd like to recommend that staff consider on these off-premise signs that the consideration of safety be addressed in their review and the analysis either by the staff and/or the petitioner to ensure that even though it might meet the maximum sign limitation, it would be an improvement to have it larger from a safety standpoint. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's for discussion, but not in addition to the motion, right? COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: No, that's right, that's a recommendation to the staff. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. And the only reason I would hesitate on that is I imagine our Land Development Code sign ordinance was vetted out in public, and all the requirements and safety features regarding that were equally done at the time, so that any concern that you may have in that regard, it would have to be done on a case-by-case basis, And so I think maybe what might be a better reaction to what you're suggesting, Mr. Kolflat, is that should any project come forward in the future like this, that any recommendation from staff in regards to safety be also factored into the review. And I would imagine you did this on this as part of your reason for recommendation, MR. MOSS: Yes, Evaluative criteria F addresses safety, and so it was reviewed for safety, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, is that -- COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Fine, Page 19 September 6, 2007 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, thank you, Mr. Kolflat. Any other comments? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, all those in favor of the motion, signify by saying aye, COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye, COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye, COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Anybody opposed? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries 8-0, Thank you, Mr. Pritt, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: That's a record, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, we've got a couple more that may not be a record, Mr. Murray, Item #8B PETITION: PUDZ-2005-AR-7883 As we announced earlier, the PUDZ-2005-AR-7883 has been continued to the 20th of September. John-David -- Mr. Moss -- are you okay? If you need a good attorney MR. KLATZKOW: Retain myself. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Moss, on the one that we're continuing, the Habitat, this may not be a relevant issue, but for the Page 20 September 6, 2007 record, on the 20th could you at least send me the entire TIS? I only got the first page of it. And it strictly says introduction of summary and kind of ends there, MR. MOSS: Okay, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I don't know if the rest of you had more than one page in your package, but if you could send it all to us, that -- MR. MOSS: I will make sure it gets to you, Sorry about that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No problem, thank you, Item #8C PETITION: CPSP-2007-6 Okay, the next petition is CPSP-2007-6. It's a petition requesting an amendment to the potable water sub-element of the public facilities element for the 10-year water supply facilities work plan, Margie, do we need to have disclosures this morning on this one? MS, STUDENT -STIRLING: No, this is a legislative matter, so disclosure and swearing in are not necessary, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And this particular item is on a separate three-ring binder that came to the planning commission members, so you may be able to pull that out. And we shall go forward, And I see Phil is here, so -- MS, VALERA: Good morning, Carolina Valera, Principal Planner with the Department of Comprehensive Planning, I have a brief presentation, Commissioner. It is basically some highlights from the staff report that you received, And I will of course entertain questions at the end, And I wanted to let you know that fill Gramatges, our principal project manager from public utilities is here to respond to any questions that you may have in regards to the plan, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, Page 21 September 6, 2007 MS, VALERA: In essence, the amendment is to -- is for Policy 1,7 of the potable water sub-element of our Growth Management Plan, Collier County is required to incorporate a lO-year water supply facilities work plan into our Growth Management Plan by January 12th of2008, so that's the bottom line, The strategy: As you know, we are not following your typical Growth Management Plan amendment cycle, And the reason for it is because of the statutory deadline, The legislators also incorporated into the law unique exceptions for this requirement, and so this is why we're outside your regular cycle amendment. We attended -- the staff attended a workshop that was put together by the South Florida Water Management District and DCA back in -- just three months ago, in June, They were going to give us guidelines to the local governments on how to prepare this plan, We were told that the plan had to follow the lower west coast work plan that South Florida Water Management has, that we had to follow the latest population methodology, and that we had to adopt it by January 12th of2008, And the DCA was preparing guidelines for local governments to follow, Now these guidelines are not ready, and we are told that maybe they will be ready the middle of this month, So we don't have those guidelines yet. So what to do, Since we are outside the Growth Management Plan cycle, regular cycle, and we have an approved population methodology that you approved last year, the AUIR that you approved last year, we consulted with DCA, we asked them how do you want us to proceed with this schedule and this deadline that we have to meet? And what they recommend us to do was to prepare a plan with the approved population methodology that we're having right now, last year's population, for the transmittal hearings, which is, you know, what we're going through right now, And then since as you know the population methodology -- this year's population methodology that is Page 22 September 6, 2007 going through with the CIE hopefully will be resolved in October and November, and this year's AUIR will be approved in November. We will revise the plan that you have right now, The population in that plan will be revised in time for the adoption hearings that we will go through in December. And January, of course, So that's the strategy, that's what we intend to do, What is the plan about? The plan, it's just a guideline, It's a strategy that we've been using; actually we call it the water master plan, And it's a planning tool. And as a planning tool in any long-range planning tool, it's not a static. It changes as population changes, as our natural resources are changed, And so it will change. We change it every year through the AUIR, through the Growth Management Plan amendments that we do, So it will change as it is updated with -- from all the utility districts and their population, Giving you a bit of history, since the water ag, was incorporated into our legislation, that section of the legislation has been changed throughout the years. It started with the birth of the water management -- the five water management districts that we have in the state, Eventually that section of the legislation was changed to require each water management district to create a regional plan to look into the future and make sure that we will have enough water for all of us in the state, We have -- Collier County has been following the lower west coast water supply plan for several years already, and about two years ago, though, the legislation yet again was changed to require that all local governments incorporate those plans -- those planning tools, those water supply plans into the Growth Management Plan, So that's what we're doing, In 2005 that's what they required us to do, And what they told us -- what the legislation says is that we have to adopt it 18 months after the regional plan, the latest regional plan was adopted, Now, the latest regional plan that we belong to, which is the Page 23 September 6, 2007 lower west coast regional water plan, was adopted just last year. It was approved by the South Florida Water Management District last year, and so now we have the specific deadline, July 12th, 2008, So basically that's what we're doing, Weare following the statutory requirement. Weare amending our Growth Management Plan to incorporate this plan, And the methodology population that we're using is recommended by DCA, We follow last year's AUIR approved and in effect population, and then we'll revise any time for the adoption hearings, What you'll see -- actually, what you see different during the adoption hearing will be the population, of course you know that, and how that will affect the plan, It will affect the demand, it will affect the timing of the plan constructions, and of course that's cost. So that's our schedule, Of course we're right now in our transmittal portion of the process, Yesterday we had the EAC hearing, They recommended approval unanimously to transmit the plan, Their concerns were more of policy, They were concerned with -- of the private wells that are east of 951, the Golden Gate area, and we explained to them that the plan follows the lower west coast requirement, and that's what we're here to do, So any policy decision will have to come from you from the Board of County Commissioners and incorporate into the plan, if they decide to do so, So that's our schedule, Weare in transmittal hearings, After the transmittal hearings, we will send the plan to DCA for their review, They take 60 days, 70 counting mailing time, processing and all that. And then we would be back during December for the adoption portion of this process, So bottom line, that's what we're doing, Weare incorporating by reference the plan so we can change it and -- as required, Weare required, actually by legislation, to update this plan every five years, As you know, we do it more often, We have the AUIR, so we update it every year. We are required to do it by January 12th, and we're Page 24 September 6, 2007 using the methodology that was recommended by DCA. So bottom line, that's what we're doing, I'll be glad to answer any question that you may have, And again, Phil Gramatges is here to answer any questions that you may have in regards to the plan, MR, COHEN: Chairman Strain, before you get there, let me clarify a few things to let you know the process that we went through with DCA to try to actually make this work better. First we asked them for an extension from the January 12th deadline, The reason being is we wanted to come forward with a version that did have population numbers that would incorporate the new methodology, Statutorily they indicated that the opportunity for an extension was not there in the statutes, The other thing that Carolina touched on was that DCA was in the process of developing some type of standardization with respect to what a plan should look like, Interestingly enough, the St. John's River Water Management District adopted their regional plan quite a long time ago, and the governmental entities within that particular district have submitted their plans which have actually been approved without a standardization of some type of methodology, So I think what DCA is trying to do is provide some type of framework. Our concern obviously is we get caught up in a situation where they come out with some framework and we have a plan where we have to modify it a little bit. And if that is the case, when they provide us with their ORC, which we know is going to contain one comment, which is obviously going to be change your population methodology to be consistent with the methodology that we've asked you for, but is not approved because it's part of the CIE, And as you're well aware, the CIE has been challenged, We anticipate that there will be a compliance agreement with respect to the CIE, and the change in that population methodology probably sometime in October. And at that time, obviously when the Page 25 September 6, 2007 board acts on it, then we'll be able to actually go to the new population methodology before your adoption hearings, So we're kind of caught in the middle again where DCA has said right now your official population methodology is as adopted, incorporated into this item right here, and then we're going to tell you to change it, which is kind of awkward, but in order to meet the statutory deadlines, this is the route that we have to follow, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, And if the panel doesn't mind, I'd like to approach this document like we have others and just go through sections of pages at a time, That seems to be efficient for everyone, Does that work? It does, We have a series of tabs, Obviously the biggest tab is after the lO-year water supply tab, So let's go through the first few right off the get-go. There's a letter from Roy B. Anderson opening up our document. Then we have the resolution before the staff report, Are there any questions from those pages? It would be the first three or four paper pages in the document. Because I have one on objective one, Carolina, and it was on Exhibit A to the resolution, MS, VALERA: Yes, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And it says, the county shall locate and develop potable water supply or sources to meet the future needs of the county-owned and operated systems, And yet going through the document I find that we've gone beyond that to systems that are not county owned and operated, And I'm wondering under what basis we did that to be in conformance with the GMP objective, MR. GRAMATGES: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, This is Phil Gramatges, Principal Project Manager, Public Utilities Engineering. One of the requirements of the law is that we report for all utilities within the county that are not individually incorporated and that therefore have to supply this type of information directly to Page 26 September 6, 2007 DCA. So we were for some reason compelled to find what the plans were for Immokalee, Ave Maria, the Florida governmental utilities authority and Orangetree, We gathered that information from those utilities and based on their feedback we have added this to the report as the law required, We can't obviously support that in the sense that we don't control any of those utilities, We only referred what they gave us, the information they gave us, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I've got two concerns over your response, And one is that -- and repeatedly in some of those other utilities the response was nothing has been received, And based on your response, it seems like something was supposed to have been received, And if it wasn't, what recourse do we have? But that's where I'm concerned about the GMP language, And I've always understood that the GMP is the higher level document that we're supposed to be following, And if the GMP says we shall meet the needs -- respond in regards to County owned and operated systems, what gives us the latitude and the opportunity to demand information and supply information on systems that aren't consistent then with the objective in regards to its literal reading? MS, STUDENT-STIRLING: For the record, Marjorie Student-Stirling, Assistant County Attorney, I have always understood as to private providers that we needed to attempt to get the information from them, But if they did not provide it to us then historically I've understood that we have little recourse to make them provide it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, you haven't answered my question, really, Margie, I'm trying to understand -- let's take it a step at a time, If the GMP says we shall -- our objective is for county-owned and operated systems, how do we go beyond that and still be complaint with the GMP? MS, STUDENT-STIRLING: Well, we have an obligation to Page 27 September 6, 2007 report on the private systems as well, and maybe there's a way where we can do a little wordsmithing and adjust the language accordingly, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, if we have a -- ifthere's something else that requires us to obtain information from these other entities, what is that source? What would require us to do so? MS. STUDENT-STIRLING: As I recall, there was something in 9J-5 that required us to get information from other entities, if we could, but it lacked an enforcement mechanism, And so if they didn't provide it, then there wasn't any way that we could get it, as I recall, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: You see a problem in getting that language to us before the adoption hearings? MS, STUDENT-STIRLING: None at all. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, And as far as the clarity in the GMP, is that something that ought to be considered in a GMP amendment in the future, if we're going to be trying to bring in other parties? And do we legally have -- MS, STUDENT -STIRLING: I think we can research it, look into it further and see what we can do and what we could add into the comprehensive plan, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'm uncomfortable with the reading of the GMP versus your statement, because I haven't seen a basis for it at the transmittal, but luckily we have the adoption which we might be able to explore it further. And the next recourse then, or next question to you would be is if as Mr. Gramatges seems to indicate that we need to have these other entities supply information and they refuse, you don't know ifthere's any recourse to that? MS, STUDENT-STIRLING: I will look into that once again, But at the time when we originally did the plan and done updates, it was our understanding that they should do it, but the county didn't have any recourse, If they did, I'll be happy to look into that further. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: What would happen if we simply didn't Page 28 September 6, 2007 include them in the report? Since the information we have, we don't know if it's accurate to begin with because we don't have it from them MS, STUDENT -STIRLING: I believe we need to include something in there about private providers. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Any other questions on the first few pages? Mr. Murray? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: That thought also occurred to me, and I'm sure to others, Would it not be more appropriate to make that more or less of a -- and I'll use a bad term, perhaps -- footnote or a separate section? If you're going to report it as information, as opposed to the presumption that we are using the last known information and thereby has some public benefit, and then that planning is based upon it, even though -- I'll give you an illustration, I suspect I know the answer to this and I'll have it confirmed-- Orangetree eventually I hope will be taken over by our county activity, so that the quality of the product will be better than it has been historically, If we use the data that we have presented here and yet we find out it's extraordinarily different, aren't we at odds with ourselves? So shouldn't this kind of information be in its own section as opposed to being integrated within the report? That would be my question in general. MR. GRAMA TGES: Commissioner, we have followed the guidelines of DCA in preparing this document. And what you see here is what they required, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Interesting, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Phil, just so you know, I have no doubt that your department has followed the correct rules to get to us today, I'm just questioning as to why you were asked to do something that doesn't seem to give you the power you need to pull the data together Page 29 September 6, 2007 and demand it. Looks like you can ask it and if they don't want to give it to you, you just have to accept that. MR. GRAMA TGES: I fully understand, Mr. Chairman. I would like to add as well that I personally visited at least one of these private utilities to request the information, The information was however not forthcoming from them, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Cohen? MR. COHEN: Yeah, Commissioner Strain, members of the board, what we'll do as a staff, if you want to make a recommendation with regard to this item, to look into obtaining the additional information, what we'll do as a staff is we'll contact Bob Dennis with DCA who handles only water facilities supply planning, and find out before the transmittal hearing of the BCC what is necessary with respect to that data, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I think that would be a good thing to do, but I also think from a -- either a statutory or other legal viewpoint what requests we can make that are consistent with our GMP, and at the same time what emphasis we can demand as a reaction to that request. So that's what I guess Ms. Student's going to look into, MR. COHEN: Yes, sir. And what we'll do is we'll conference in with Mr. Dennis and I'll do so with Ms, Student as well. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, Mr. Schmitt? MR, SCHMITT: Just so the planning commission understands, there are certain utilities that we oversee, the private utilities. There are some that are state, there are some that -- I have one person on my staff that oversees those, And those are basically from a standpoint of I guess regulatory oversight through the Collier County Water and Wastewater Authority, which is a separate board, Now, the Board of County Commissioners serves as the Collier County Water and Page 30 September 6, 2007 Wastewater Authority for our Collier County system, but there is a separate authority that oversees about three or four -- I can't think of them, Orangetree is one, Ave Maria, and there's a few others that they have statutory authority over. So there is a mechanism to try and get that information, either from the Collier -- from the water and wastewater authority here in Collier County or through the state, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I think it's a two-step process and you touched on the second step which is what the mechanism is to demand it. But the first one I would suggest is what the mechanism is that we have the right to demand it. And our GMP seems to conflict with that thought in regards it only references county owned and operated systems, So maybe if we could get those clarifications, that would certainly be helpful. And Mr. Midney, you had a question? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Yeah, my question was why can't the DCA require the private water utilities to report, if they're interested in this information? MR, COHEN: Mr. Midney, we will actually ask that question as well, too, It's a matter of regulatory authority on whether or not they actually have authority with respect to regulation, and that's why we're going to pose that question, One other thing I wanted to modify and make the record straight for the court reporter's purpose, I always refer to the county attorney as Marjorie or Marjorie Student. It's Student-Stirling, and I wanted to clarify that for the record, and I apologize for that mistake, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, are there any other questions on the first few pages? Mr. Murray? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I just had a thought on that. The state legislature is requiring that the county and other entities submit to the plan as promulgated by the South Florida Water Page 3 1 September 6, 2007 Management District. Do they not have then the authority to require this information inasmuch as it's for the public good, or are these completely insulated organizations? I'm trying to understand why there's no way that this information couldn't have been made available, I'm sure that it should have inasmuch as you're required to provide it, or seemingly, Yes, ma'am? MS, STUDENT-STIRLING: Commissioner Murray, we will check into that. I was giving you the historical perspective, because this was an issue that DCA had long-standing, due to the number of private providers in the state, I think the idea was that the public facilities should get -- is encouraged to, you know, take over private providers as they could, So we'll flesh that all out -- COMMISSIONER MURRAY: All right, thank you, MS, STUDENT-STIRLING: -- and see what mechanisms there are. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, if we move on to the next tab, it's under the staff report, Are there any questions from the staff report from this committee? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Next item after that is the tab for the advertising, I'm sure there's nothing there, So let's move into the lO-year water supply, And we'll try to take it group of pages at a time, Say five, That way my fingers -- I've got five fingers, I can count that far. So executive summary starts on Page ES-l, Are there any questions from the planning commission on ES-l through ES-5? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: I have a question. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead, Mr. Midney, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: I'm not sure this is the place to get into it, but it looks as good as any, Page 32 September 6, 2007 Why is there a difference in the per capita range ranging from Orangetree at 100 to some of the other ones, which are 182 gallons per day? MR. GRAMA TGES: Commissioner, we really do not know what basis they used to determine their consumption, We have to assume that it's based on historical fact. All I can tell you is that our consumption rates have been coming down for the last several years to what they have now, 185 gallons per person per day, I can't really speak for the standards for any other utility, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Because my question is, if we are pushing conservation, and don't we expect the conservation, as you suggested, has been lowering the amount of consumption, wouldn't it help our planning if we actually lowered some of these expected consumption rates so that we wouldn't have to plan to build more capacity than we really need? MR. GRAMATGES: We have put forth a very dedicated effort to reduce the consumption per capita, as is reflected by the fact that not long ago the consumption was 210 gallons per person per day, We need to provide this information to DCA in order to prove that we're concurrent with the South Florida Water Management District 1 O-year plan, It is only speculative as to what our number will be five, 10 years from now, We don't feel that it is prudent for us to pick a particular number, since our efforts no doubt will reduce it, but we don't know to what extent. We know that since this is predominantly a concurrency document, if we can prove to DCA that at the level of 185 gallons per capita per day we can meet the requirements of the South Florida Water Management District 10-year plan, we should indeed be able to do it if the number becomes lower than 185, And for that reason, we have consistently used 185, because it is the best, more prudent way for us to approach this document. Page 33 September 6, 2007 COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: It seems as though if we're trying to encourage conservation, though, that if we're basically giving such a high promised level of capacity we're not really providing an incentive or a strong incentive for conservation, Because if we said that we were going to reduce it, maybe that would help push the demand down, MR, GRAMATGES: All I can say is that we have indeed done either to marketing, to use in the media, to try to encourage the population at large to reduce water consumption by using irrigation quality water, that's recycled water, to supply, to replace water that is used for irrigation by putting in place an inverted block rate, which is one of the most aggressive, if not the most aggressive in Florida, that indeed we're doing all we can to reduce that consumption and to encourage the population to indeed reduce consumption, If there's any other way in which we can approach this, we certainly are willing to explore it. But these are the ways in which we're approaching it. And we will continue, I assure you, to approach them in that manner in the future, And it is our goal to reduce that consumption, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: It's interesting to me that Ave Maria and Orangetree have set their level so much lower than the rest of the county, And I'm wondering what they're doing that we're not doing, and maybe if we can try to figure out how we can imitate some of what they're doing so that we can get down closer to their levels, MR. GRAMATGES: Well, what I can say, though, is that the consumption is of course dependent on a lot of factors, factors over which we have little control. One of those factors of course is the amount of water that is used for irrigation, Depending on the density of the area, the amount used for irrigation was very widely, And irrigation, as I'm sure you know, is a big factor, is a big Page 34 September 6, 2007 percentage of the total potable water we supply, So consequently in areas where the lawns are big and where there's a lot of golf courses, the consumption rate will go up on a per capita basis, We have no -- we have looked at those rates and we believe that the reason for the differences is mostly due to population density and the utilization of the water. But once again, I will say that we are doing everything we can and we're using all the resources we have to reduce that consumption, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Okay, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ms, Caron, and then Mr. Murray, COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah, I just wanted to comment further on what Paul was talking about, because I agree with you, I think number one, Ave Maria may be in a position to have to increase theirs, They are very few people out there now, All the landscaping that they are planning on is not in, all the golf courses that they're planning on are not in, So that figure is probably going to go up, And secondly, with respect to Orangetree, Orangetree is a utility in deep trouble, I don't think we want to go there, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: That's a hard one to follow, that one, Continuing this conversation, I wanted to be clear in my mind, the agricultural use, and purely agricultural, the numbers for instance in Immokalee where it's 100, does that include agricultural use as well? MR. GRAMATGES: I honestly -- I'm not sure, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay, When you say that the uses here -- and I'll call it western Collier, for the lack of a better term, where we have a lot of golf courses is historic -- I hope he told you a good secret. Historically where a lot of water is used for golf courses, is that a greater number than would agricultural use? Would that be if you Page 35 September 6, 2007 were to put them on a scale, would you think? MR. GRAMATGES: I believe that generally the use of water for irrigation and golf courses is less than agricultural requires, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay, And I noted in the document that it said that while reclaimed water is desired, there is a point where it's just not feasible, I don't recall the actual words, but where it's not possible or feasible or for whatever reason to go any further with the reclaim, When I was looking at the numbers and I did some percentage runs and I saw that -- I said, gee, you know, we could really help a lot in western Collier if we had a lot more reclaimed water. Could you explain why we're prohibited or prevented from going a lot further with the reclaimed water opportunity? MR. GRAMATGES: At this point in time, our utility utilizes more than 80 percent of the reclaimed water that we produce for irrigation purposes, This year in fact because we have a drought we have utilized more than 90 percent of our reclaimed water. The problem with reclaimed water is that when you need it the most, it's raining and you don't want it (sic), So the demand varies during the year. During the dry season, every drop of water that we reclaim goes out to irrigation purpose, During the rainy season it is not utilized because a lot of the golf courses simply don't turn the spigots on because they don't need it and obviously don't want to pay for something that they don't know need, So the issue with reclaimed water is that there is not enough at the time that we need it the most. Now, we're looking at ways to be able to utilize that additional 10 to 20 percent by storing it, by keeping it on the ground and by doing other things, Obviously all of these solutions are expensive and we need to balance the need for the water versus the cost to our consumers and our rate payers to do so, But we certainly are looking at ways to utilize even more. And furthermore, we are working on an irrigation quality policy Page 36 September 6, 2007 that goes beyond irrigation quality or reclaimed water into other sources of water for irrigation purposes, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Well, that makes me feel much more comfortable, I realize that you folks are active in doing your job; I appreciate that. The ASRs, the reclaimed water bubbles that you're going to throw in the ground, they haven't yet begun, have they? MR. GRAMATGES: We have only 1 ASR in operation right now, We have -- at the time that we present the AUIR to you, you'll see that we have a number of others in the plan, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Okay, I just -- the issue of conservation and the agricultural use and the numbers, and when you do percentages, when you look at, for instance, Ave Maria, the incremented number doesn't match with the population, and that I would expect because that's really a dart, But I did look at some of the other numbers, and they didn't seem to also suggest that they were as close as what I would have expected if we're planning this big population growth, Thank you, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I would like this board to try to focus on the pages that we're moving to, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Yeah, I realize that. I don't have anything else, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ms, Caron, did you have any questions? COMMISSIONER CARON: No, I'm fine, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Phil, I still have one question about the first five pages, Collier County's use of 185 and the demand, is that what you consider necessary to provide a feasible facility and be consistent with the objectives of this report? MR. GRAMATGES: Yes, sir. Most emphatically, yes, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Then I would suggest that sometime between now and the next time this comes before us, or Page 37 September 6, 2007 before it goes to the DCA, we should change all the other demand calculations for the other utilities that are not ours to 185, And then that will show them all in a deficit and let them deal with DCA in that regard, Unless they can justify having less than 185, since you've justified 185, MR. GRAMATGES: Well, if you wish to do that, we certainly can -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It's a suggestion, I'm trying to -- if this county feels so strong that 185 is the right number, just like the population, there ought to be consistency in our documents. And I would like to know what you all think of that. Because if we're allowing these other facilities who we're reporting for to operate at an unfeasible level simply because they changed the multiplier in their documents, then somebody is wrong, it's either us or them, MR. GRAMATGES: Mr. Chairman, I will say again that one of the reasons why the level of service is different and between different regions is the way in which the water is utilized, It has to do with a lot of factors, one of them being density, So it is possible that some of these utilities have higher density than we do within our own sewer and water district, and therefore that's the reason why the consumption is lower. I can only speculate as to the reasons, But I would like to explain that indeed there may be very good reasons why their numbers are lower than ours, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I also know that you have various -- like theirs, you have parts of the rural fringe, you have population calculations that go in parts of your area that don't have the densities that you have along the coastal areas, so therefore you're telling us now that maybe there's a varied demand that you could be using, similar to the way they're using them, depending on what part of the county you're in? MR. GRAMATGES: Well, our demand factor of 185 Page 38 September 6, 2007 encompasses the entire 240 square miles of our district. There are areas there that require less, there are areas there that require more, But we are -- since all of our potable water system is interconnected, we use only one number to cover the entire 240 miles, So you -- so what I'm saying, Mr. Chairman, is yes, you are correct, there are some areas within our district that have less consumption on a per capita basis than others, But when you see the 185, it is a conglomerate of all of those areas seen together. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Is this produced in a report within your department, this 185 demand? Is this something that if you were to provide -- if we were to ask for a review ofa 12-month cycle showing how the demand varies over 12 months in this county, can you produce a report? Can you show us a -- MR. GRAMATGES: We certainly have the data that would enable us to produce some of report that would show our consumption, yes, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: In the data that then the report would flow from? So we could actually derive and see how your meter reading -- how your gallonage and flows actually are affected? MR, GRAMATGES: Well, we know how much water we produce and distribute on a daily basis, in fact. And we have an estimate of the population on a monthly basis, So yeah, we should be able to divide one number into the other and give you an idea as to how this is calculated, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: See, I'm concerned because DCA sent back a rejection to our prior documentation in regards to population a while back and said they had to be consistent. And we went and now we're using a consistent population, And I would think with your strong argument for the demand per capita to be what it is, it certainly thinks that -- it certainly seems to me that that consistency should be averaged throughout the county, Or if the others are low and ours are high then we should benefit fromm Page 39 September 6, 2007 that average as well, rather than build facilities that may be more than we need based on those averages, So I think that ought to be something we ought to look at, and I would leave it up to staff to take a closer look at that and respond back. MR. GRAMATGES: I certainly will take your advice, I'd like you, however, to keep in mind that that number also varies from year to year. I remind you that we are in the middle of a drought right now and we're taking some extraordinary measures to reduce consumption, So the number for this year will likely be considerably less than 185, Since we projected for the future, it's -- in fact we're projected for 10 years into the future, we need to be sure that we have a consumptive rate that is consistent with history and consistent with good management practice, And therefore an analysis like that may be able to pinpoint a year where we would have considerably less consumption than we would have other years, and that may be due to a lot of other factors, I'm not trying to back pedal on what I said, if I may, I'm just trying to explain that there are a lot of factors that affect the per capita consumption, And whenever you have to make projections into the future, you need to be extremely conservative, because if you're not the possible downside of not doing that is that we may run out of water and we definitely do not want to do that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And running out of water would simply mean we can't make the connections, MR. GRAMATGES: Running out of water simply means that we're going to have to have restrictions that are going to be very, very difficult for rate payers to accept. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Midney? MS, VALERA: If I may? I'm sorry, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead, Page 40 September 6, 2007 MS. VALERA: I also wanted to point out that the lower west coast plan requires the local governments use 185 as the number to follow, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Really? MS, VALERA: Yes, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, then why -- again, you just opened the door. Why are we not using that for those other utilities and then showing them deficient so that more or less the trouble can be brought to the surface, it can be analyzed then, because now everybody's going to be all upset that oh, my God, we're showing deficient water usages in all these other areas, and maybe a practical answer can be provided that says why or why not they shouldn't be using 185 inconsistent then with what you just told us? So maybe this is the method of getting to a better analysis and a better answer to the inconsistency in the numbers, Mr. Midney? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Could you say that again? 185 is required for all utilities in Southwest Florida? MS, VALERA: For all the local governments, that's how Florida Water Management District governs, And, you know, the regional plan is the lower west coast plan, and the lower west coast plan has the numbers to follow, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: That's for the present time and the future? MS, VALERA: As the latest update from their plan, which is the 2005-2006 update of their plan, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Because before you said that I was going to suggest that what they should probably do is since it's trended down from 210 to 185, that they should continue to extrapolate how it's likely to decrease with conservation and with the increased cost of water. It's gone up dramatically and we can expect that that's going to deflate the demand also, Page 41 September 6, 2007 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Were we required, Carolina, by DCA or the state to follow the 10-year -- the south Florida plan? MS, VALERA: (Nods head affirmatively.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: We were? Is that affirmative? MS. VALERA: Yes, that's correct. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Well, Ms, Student, or Mr. Klatzkow, since you're listening, I think it's very important that we resolve this issue based on your recent testimony to us today or comments to us today that this 185 is a requirement, and now we find that several -- and we've got four other utilities in this county that aren't using that. So now that brings it to a much higher level of concern at this point, so -- MS, STUDENT-STIRLING: I have notes and we'll look into all that. MR. KLATZKOW: I think a footnote highlighting this issue in the report would be very helpful. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I've already made one as a recommendation when we finish the -- MR. GRAMATGES: And we certainly can do that. And we certainly can change the requirement for those four utilities to 185 and see what happens, I mean, I don't know what else to tell you, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I can tell you right now, if you take -- one of them, for example, Orangetree is 100, It goes to 185 you're showing it unfeasible, basically, And EMU is at 109, and you'd be showing them at 185, I'm sure with all their expertise and their scientists and people that are involved in their plans, they are going to provide some very useful information as to why 185 may not be the right number. But if 185 is the number dictated to us by the state, I'd sure like to see how anybody can get around that number. So it might be a very worthwhile discussion for us to have, Mr. Midney? Page 42 September 6, 2007 COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Well, just taking Immokalee for instance, I can give you very clear reasons why Immokalee doesn't use as much water as the coast, not only historically but just because of the characteristics of our community, We don't have big lawns, we don't have big houses, We shouldn't have to plan for as much capacity there, But we've never used as much water as they do on the coast. It just doesn't make any sense, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Did you look at the capacity demand for Immokalee? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: It's not a lot less, but it is less, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, it's 182. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Right. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I don't think Immokalee will be impacted negatively by using 185, Very little, But it's the other ones that are concerning that we may want to -- COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Right. But I'm just arguing in favor that not all communities are the same, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I agree, MR. COHEN: Mr. Chairman, what we will do is clarify whether that 185 was a number in terms of what maximum you should be, and whether or not -- if that number is less whether or not that is acceptable, And we'll do that with the water management district. Because what it says is we have to be consistent with their plan, and if there's lower consumption that isn't necessarily inconsistency and we'll clarify that matter. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Now, I'm still trying to get past the first five pages, and unfortunately there's another concept on the first five pages I have a question on and that is on the ends of several of your summaries for the other utilities you have a sentence that says, however the allocation of the underlying CUP does not cover the withdrawals required to achieve the finished water demand, That's a fine statement and I understand what it means, but how Page 43 September 6, 2007 does that tell DCA the feasibility of the system if we're just admitting it doesn't cover it? How are we saying it's being corrected if we now have to report and speak for those other utilities? We can't tell them and we can't order them, apparently, to go out and get a new consumptive use permit. MR. GRAMATGES: No, we cannot. But they do require a consumptive use permit. The South Florida Water Management District needs to permit them so -- you know, for them to be able to withdraw water from any aquifer, because it is their responsibility to make sure that there's enough raw water for everyone, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, based on the study that you provided for Immokalee water sewer district in 2008 -- well, 2005 they had a deficit of ,8, and now they're going to have a deficit in '08 of 1,1, which means this year they have a deficit as well, So does that mean they're feasible? MR. GRAMATGES: Well, when there is a deficit on the part of the raw water availability, means that they don't have permits to be able to supply the water that we'll need five years from now, Unfortunately the South Florida Water Management District does not give permits five years in advance, So therefore that deficit reflects the fact that we will need additional permits in the future, As far as Collier County Public Utilities is concerned, we are in contact with the South Florida Water Management District and they have assured us that the plan that we have in place will be able to be met from their perspective, because there will be enough water for us to be able to do what we need to do, In other words, they don't see any reason why they should not be able to give us the permits we need, So that deficit only reflects the fact that the permits are not in the books at this time. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And I fully understand that, Phil. Just like you, I've been through the process for consumptive use permits, But under your Immokalee presentation that's been in this document Page 44 September 6, 2007 and under the Golden Gate City Florida Governmental Utility Authority, both of those show current operating deficits in the year 2005, 2008 and all the way through the 10-year plan. Now, I understand you can get South Florida permits early, But right now you're basically saying they're operating in a deficit, which to me is not feasible, Is that a fair statement? MR, GRAMA TGES: Yeah, that certainly is a fair statement. And once again, we have information that in some cases it's stale, For all we know, they may be able to meet it now, I really can't answer that question, I'm sorry, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, but the objective of this report was demonstrate that the water supply plans for each utility within the county are feasible with respect to facility capacity to be developed, And consumptive use permit allocations are required. And I think you've proven just the opposite for two of these, and I would wonder if that's what DCA's going to accept if we send it to them, We're supposed to show it's feasible, And is our plan going to be trashed because we've included two other plans that are not feasible? MR, GRAMATGES: We find ourselves between the proverbial rock and a hard place, We need to report on information that is given to us by third parties that we cannot control. And we can only report on what we know, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, It's just making it more difficult to understand what the real objective here is today, Ms. Caron? COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah, I was just going to say, I mean, if you look down at Immokalee, it says that their cup expires in 2010, So does that mean they have to wait to get that new permit until 2010? MR. GRAMATGES: No, they typically will require that permit in 2009. Page 45 September 6, 2007 COMMISSIONER MURRAY: It's still a long time, MR. GRAMA TGES: They will probably request the permit in 2008 and go through the process and obtain that permit in 2009, COMMISSIONER CARON: Well, let's look back at Collier County then, where we're fine here in 2008, MR. GRAMATGES: What page are you looking at, please? COMMISSIONER CARON: ES-3, Okay, the permitted surplus or deficit, okay? So we were fine in 2005, and we're fine up through 2008, Looks like we don't have a deficit until 2013, MR, GRAMATGES: That's correct. COMMISSIONER CARON: When will you be able to get that permit? MR, GRAMATGES: We will be able to get those permits in 2012, COMMISSIONER CARON: A year before, MR. GRAMATGES: Roughly a year before, yes, COMMISSIONER CARON: Okay, Now, let's go back to Immokalee, You're telling me that right now they should be applying for a new permit to cover them in 2008? MR, GRAMATGES: That's correct. COMMISSIONER CARON: Okay, Well, footnote three says that the cup for 3,36 MGD annual average expires June 15th, 2010. So that's two years after. MR. GRAMATGES: Well, that's a permit that they have in place right now, They need additional consumptive use permits. They obviously need to request that addition, COMMISSIONER CARON: Okay, And they should be doing that now to cover them for next year? MR. GRAMATGES: Yes, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's kind of the issue that because they can't get current input from these other sub-utilities, they may be Page 46 September 6, 2007 doing it, they may -- that would be feasible, but since we don't know, we have a deficit shown under this point. Is that a fair statement? MR. GRAMATGES: That's a fair statement, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to add as well that some of these utilities have been more forthcoming with the information than others, Immokalee has been one of those, and Ave Maria has been -- in fact, for that matter, FGUA has cooperated with us, I understand they have recently sent us information that we received too late to incorporate into this report, and that we fully intend to incorporate into it as we revise it for the next round. So it's possible that that information is already here and it's not reflected here, I mean, in all fairness to them, they have their schedules and commitments, and getting this information sometimes is not easy for them, not just for us, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Mr. Schiffer? COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Just point of information, This report is on a letterhead of CDM, What is CDM? MR. GRAMATGES: CDM stands for Camp, Dresser and McKee, It is a consulting firm that we have used for several years now, They are very active internationally in the public utilities potable water and sewer area, And we are -- we have used them before, They're the company that is helping us manage our own raw water supply plan, and we have a lot of respect for the work that they've done, The principal project manager responsible for this report for us is Mr. Paul Pino, Mr. Pino has a lot of experience in this area, and in fact he was an executive in a very large utility in the northeast before he became an independent consultant -- or rather a consultant working for CDM, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, So the executive summary here is a third-party conclusion then? MR. GRAMATGES: We certainly have been reviewing this Page 47 September 6, 2007 throughout very carefully, We had several meetings with them with our entire staff, including all directors and the administrator, Mr. DeLony, and we can -- and this is our report, not theirs, Because they drafted it, we approved it, we revised it, reviewed it, and it has gone through several modifications before it became what you have in front of you right now, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I mean, I couldn't find, maybe it's in there, but anything that explains what you just said, So I think in the future reports, since it is on the letterhead of a private firm, you should maybe describe that. I was looking for it and I played the Where's Waldo game with the papers, Then another question is, what is -- just for my own education, these private utilities I assume are governed -- are they privately owned utilities? They're-- MR. GRAMATGES: Yes, at least two of them are privately owned, I am not sure, Immokalee I don't think is privately owned, W ell, Ave Maria is privately owned, of course, Immokalee is not. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: How are they governed? Just quickly, 25 words or less, if that's possible, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Immokalee is boarded by a governor-appointed governing board in Immokalee that has seven members, We're a -- I don't know how you'd say it, we're a semi governmental, I guess, republic, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And then you say two of them are privately owned, Which ones are they? MR. GRAMATGES: Three of them are privately owned, Ave Maria, Orangetree and FGUA. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And who owns those, quickly? I don't want to hang here too long, MR. GRAMATGES: I don't have that information at hand, I can provide it for you, of course, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I think maybe that would be Page 48 September 6, 2007 interesting in the report, too, Thank you, MR. GRAMATGES: Yeah, Ave Maria is a special district, indeed, I don't know if that's true for FGUA as well, though, FGUA I think -- no, FGUA is not. Neither is Orangetree, MR. SCHMITT: Orangetree of course was built by the developer to support that development. I believe it's owned and operated by Mr. Boldt. I'm not sure about Golden Gate, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yeah, I mean, I can assume what Ave Maria is, But-- MR. SCHMITT: Ave Maria is owned by the-- COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: -- just curious, maybe a quick paragraph in here describing that for us, that's all, MR. SCHMITT: Sure. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, we've gotten through the first five, Let's go to the end of that section, which would take us through ES- 7, Any other questions on that section of document? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: ES-7 starts with a Section 1 introduction, Ifwe go all the way from that 1-1 page to say Page 2-5, are there any questions in that section of the book? Mr. Schiffer? COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: City of Naples, you have a statement in here that you kind of review what they're doing and make sure that it meets the standards of the county? The City of Naples, which has a large chunk of county citizens being served by them, the concern is that there's been a lot of complaints on pressure and sizing, How do you know that they're upgrading their system? I mean, we're all running around looking at gallons per day here, But how do we know that pressures, pipe sizes, age of materials, stuff like that is being maintained? MR. GRAMATGES: We do not oversee Naples, We can only tell you what they tell us, Now, we are in constant communication Page 49 September 6, 2007 with them, and we have several agreements for mutual supply in cases of emergency, which we did do in Hurricane Wilma, But we certainly don't control them, nor dictate to them what they can and cannot do, So we only take information they give us, They're not even included in this report because they report directly to DCA. COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Right. But it does state in this report that you oversee their report essentially in making sure it complies with our standards, Is that true? MR, GRAMATGES: Yes, we do communicate and we do look at each other's reports, indeed, and they take our advice and we take theirs, I believe that that's the extent of the relationship, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: To quote it is, the county, however, is responsible for ensuring that the city's existing and future facilities meet the level. So it sounds more than that. But the problem is, in your process of ensuring that, be careful on some of the pressures, We're having trouble in the Bayshore area that it's not -- this system is not up to hopefully our standards, So I don't know how that's done. Just a bizarre question is could we ever as the county take over that system? I don't know what arrangements have been made, but wouldn't it be in our best interest if we controlled all the systems that serve all the residents? MR. GRAMATGES: I honestly cannot answer that question at this time, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, let's not waste time, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It's beyond the context of this report, so let's just -- we might have a sidebar in a few minutes with Phil on that COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yeah, let's -- don't waste time on that. I'm sorry, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: The balance of Section 2 ends on Page 2-7, Any other questions on Section 2? Page 50 September 6, 2007 Okay, let's take a 14-minute break. We'll come back here at 10 after 10:00, Thank you, (Recess,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, if someone could turn on the mic, Okay, we'll get back in session, We were discussing the water supply plan, We left off on Section 3, Section 3 is about five pages, Taking us to Section 4, Are there any questions from the panel on Section 3? (Commissioner Tuff is present in the boardroom,) (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Phil, I did have a question, Water restrictions, how have they affected demand? Do you see a significant drop, a percentage? MR, GRAMATGES: I can't give you a percentage, but I can certainly say that they have indeed affected demand, Demand has gone down considerably, Certainly more than 10 percent. COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: Let's keep them in all year round, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's about what I was thinking, too, Okay, is there any questions on Section 4? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Yes, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Section 4 takes us quite a few pages, Let's just look at the whole section in one lump sum, Mr. Midney, then Mr. Schiffer. COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: On Section 4-18, it says that the Immokalee Water and Sewer District disposes all effluent wastewater by on-site spray irrigation and percolation ponds, They also use a deep well injection, MR, GRAMATGES: Okay, we can correct that. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any others, Mr. Midney? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: No, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Schiffer? Page 51 September 6, 2007 COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Yes, this would be on reclaimed water, Page 4-10, And the question really boils down to, if you look at the data you gave us, you have the potential of 80-plus million gallons per day, you have a contractual use of 22-plus million gallons a day, you have, by your notes, 140 customers who would like to join on, How come we're not expanding that service more? Because the biggest virtue of that is that every gallon per day you get off of that you don't get off of the potable water. MR. GRAMATGES: Yes, Commissioner, as I explained before, we are using all of the water that we have available, During the dry season 100 percent of the reclaimed water we have available is distributed, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But then during the wet season do you think any of these 140 customers are using potable water and could be using that? MR. GRAMATGES: During the wet season it is unlikely, because most of the potable water that is replaced by irrigation-quality water is of course for irrigation, So if it's raining, the majority of them don't want the water, don't want to pay for something they don't need, So during the rainy season the demand for irrigation quality water diminishes substantially, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And you're assuming that their sprinklers and all aren't going on during the rainy season, But there is a big discrepancy between the potential and your use, In other words, one is 40 thou, one is 23 thou, Isn't that right? You-- MR. GRAMATGES: Can you point out to me where you're reading? COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: I think it's at table 4-7, MR. GRAMA TGES: Yes, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: The total -- doesn't that say 40 MR. GRAMATGES: Well, that is the design capacity, That Page 52 September 6, 2007 assumes that we are running those plants at full capacity, and we are not doing that most of the time, The design capacity is there to meet the needs of the season when the population peaks, and it has of course also some factors for reliability based on 10 state standards, So the plants may for a week run close to max, but for the most time they don't. So indeed, that number 40 is not actual production, it's capacity, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, But you do state on 4-13 that, in the words of your consultant, the county has identified the scenario -- the scenario meaning pumping water into the ground -- as a waste of a valuable resource, Is there any way -- because I think you're making the assumption that these other customers, probably smaller customers, are all not irrigating during the wet season when in fact they may be -- especially this was a dry season, they would have gladly I'm sure like to have gotten ahold of some of it. But you say saying there's no more capacity other than these 23? MR. GRAMATGES: No, that's all the capacity that we have, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: And in the off season when you're storing, it looks like 130 million gallons in the system, why isn't that being used then? MR. GRAMATGES: Well, typically what we would do is store the capacity during the rainy season and use it during the dry season, I'm afraid I don't fully understand your concern, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, so what you're saying is that during the wet season any reclaimed water you get, you're just filling up the pipes and letting it sit there, Anything extra than that you're -- what's described in your report as a waste of a valuable resource is going in the ground. MR. GRAMATGES: What they say is a waste of valuable resources is that we have deep injection wells where we inject reclaimed water when there is no demand for the reclaimed water. Page 53 September 6, 2007 There's only so much capacity for it. Most of it in ponds, Once those ponds are filled to the brim, the only way we can get rid of that water is by injecting it. That is a waste of resources, If we had ASRs to store this, or other ways to store that water during the rainy season and then utilize it in the dry season, that would be a resource that would not go to waste, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Is there any plans to expand the system? MR. GRAMA TGES: Yes, indeed, Weare looking at all kinds of plans to expand the system to better utilize the water we have available and make other water available for irrigation purposes, be it surface water, be it rain water that we capture, and so on, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: But not within the next 10 years? MR. GRAMATGES: Yes, But the problem with this document, as I said before, this document is there exclusively to meet the requirements of the regulations, The AUIR and the master plan address those planning issues that you're referring to, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Okay, we'll wait till then, thanks, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Midney, then Ms, Caron, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: I just realized, the Immokalee Seminole Indian reservation also has its own water and sewer utility, and I don't see that in this report, MR. GRAMATGES: I don't know why it's not there, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Maybe it's Broward? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: No, our Immokalee one does, It's new, MR. GRAMATGES: Oh, is it? Okay, That's the Immokalee Seminole? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Yes, reservation, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Which brings up an interesting point. Page 54 September 6, 2007 Had this gone forward and that didn't get issued or it wasn't in there, does DCA care? I mean, how are they going to know? I mean, I'm being facetious in a way, but I'm just really wondering how comprehensive we're required to be. And if we're not comprehensive, then how does anybody know? So I guess that's a question that remains to be answered, Ms, Caron? COMMISSIONER CARON: On Page 4-8, at the bottom of the page Table 4-6 gives a summary of our water storage facilities, And one column is the tank volume and the next is the usable storage, All right? And in all cases our tank volume is greater than our actual usable storage in those tanks, MR. GRAMATGES: Yes, COMMISSIONER CARON: All right. If you go to Page 4-18 and look at Immokalee, they get 100 percent out of every tank. In other words, if the Jerry Warden water storage facility has 1.80 in volume, their usable storage is 1,80, Does that mean that they're being more efficient than we are, or -- MR. GRAMATGES: Well, in the first place we are going by what they reported, The second is the reason why our volume is not totally usable is because the tanks have what we call heel at the bottom. You can't put the discharge of the tank at the very bottom of the tank, you put it on the side, And there's a few inches left at the bottom of the tank you can't take out. I can only assume that Immokalee is designing their tanks differently, COMMISSIONER CARON: Okay, you think the design of their tanks are actually different? MR, GRAMA TGES: I'm not sure, COMMISSIONER CARON: Because I actually believe that your figures are correct and theirs are probably not 100 percent. I don't think you can get to that figure, But I was just curious, Page 55 September 6, 2007 MR. GRAMATGES: I'm a registered professional engineer, and I will tell you that it would require a lot of good engineering be able to extract every drop out of every tank. COMMISSIONER CARON: Exactly, Okay, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions on Section 4? Phil, if you -- on page -- the chart after Page 4-2, it's actually called Figure 4-1, This is something that I had brought up in meetings a long time ago when I started being concerned about your demand from development -- land developers for wellfield easements, I had asked that you provide us with a master plan showing how those well field easements should be tied in; otherwise, why keep asking for them, And in this particular case you actually supplied the plan that I had requested, but what it does show is that all the wellfield easements that we've asked for west of 951 really don't have any way of tying into the mains that you show here, Is that a fair statement? MR. GRAMATGES: That is a fair statement. What you see here is the existing wellfields, There are some well fields that are being developed right now, I'm personally project manager for one just south ofI-75 that contains 23 wells, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I realize there's more south of there, yes, I'm looking at the portion north ofI-75, Is everything -- do we have any wellfield collection mains west of 951 ? MR. GRAMATGES: Not that I remember, no, I don't have a copy of the master plan right here, but I'm pretty sure we do not have them, However, that doesn't mean that we may not provide them in the future, We request these well easements because we know that this is not going to be sufficient for us to provide well water in the long term, And we need to get those easements, When we get enough wells together and close enough distance to make it fiscally prudent for us to put a transmission line, then we do that. Page 56 September 6, 2007 We haven't been able to do that on the east side -- rather on the west side of I-75 yet. But as far as I know, there are no wells that we have requested west of! -75, There's quite a few east. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I'm talking about west of951. MR. GRAMATGES: Oh, west of951? Yeah, there's quite a few west of951, yes, That is a prime location in the sense that hydrologically and the quality of the water is such that this is a prime potential for us to be able to expand our fields, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, on Page 4-8, all the way on the very bottom, it's actually the Table 4-6 that Ms, Caron had previously discussed, you have a footnote 2, storage volume for Manatee Road ASR not included in the total. Why? MR. GRAMATGES: That's a good question, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I mean, it would bring up the tank volume to storage volume closer to where Ms, Caron was indicating Immokalee was like, MR. GRAMATGES: I know that Manatee Road is being refurbished, It's likely that's the reason, But I certainly can provide you with an answer for that, yes, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: If! may? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Go ahead, Mr. Murray, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I may be totally in error here, but I have a recollection, wasn't that ASR still in a test phase? MR, GRAMATGES: Yes, it is, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: So that really wouldn't count because it's in test, right? That's my understanding. MR. GRAMATGES: Yeah, the ASR is relatively new, And all ASRs have teething problems, And we need to make sure, we use it for a couple of years and we test the water that comes out of it. And it usually takes at least a year, sometimes two to three years before we Page 57 September 6, 2007 can be confident that that water is going to be usable, So that could very well be the reason -- COMMISSIONER MURRAY: I think if that, what I've said and you've agreed to is true, and I believe it is, that maybe you might want to footnote that so that -- to help you, MR. GRAMATGES: Yeah, I think this footnote needs to be a little bit more explanatory, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, On Page 4-26, On Table 4-23 on Page 4-26, the table's title is Summary of Existing AMUC Water Treatment Facility, Yet footnote one says that the information on existing and planned water treatment facilities taken from a preliminary design report by Ave Maria University prepared in June, 2004, If it's existing, how can it be taken from a preliminary design report? MR. GRAMATGES: Well, because all the information we have is available from that preliminary design report, This -- Ave Maria is under construction, and their utility is under construction as well. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Are there supplying any water at this point? MR. GRAMATGES: I believe they are, but they're not supplying water to the capacity that the plant is designed to provide, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: So Table 4-23 being titled as a summary of existing, it really isn't true, is it? MR. GRAMATGES: Well, they reported to us as existing, And that could very well be that the plant has been completed but it's not in full operation, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, well, I hate to go back on an old subj ect. COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: No, you don't. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: No, I don't. COMMISSIONER CARON: Nor should you, Page 58 September 6, 2007 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Nor should 1. COMMISSIONER CARON: No, I mean feel bad about going back -- I think we have to repeat -- CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, Phil, I'm real concerned that we have a footnote that says this is based on a preliminary design report in June, 2004 but we're telling DCA it's a summary of existing, Is there some way we could -- MR. GRAMATGES: We certainly can look, yes, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That also occurs on Table 4-24 and on Table 4- -- well, no, those two tables, 4-25 seems to be fairly updated, But those two tables talk about reports that were done in '04, so they don't seem to be existing situations, And if we're not pulling that much water out of the ground as a county, I think we may not want to be saying that to DCA. Okay, any other questions on Section 4? Mr. Tuff? Oh, by the way, let the record reflect Mr. Tuff came just in time for the break. COMMISSIONER TUFF: When you all get my age, you'll do the same, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Tuff, you need to bring your microphone -- COMMISSIONER TUFF: Just on 4-19, just on the FGUA at the very bottom table, I know that FGUA's has had some problems with capacity and they were going to put up things -- put in a deep well to take care of the things, But they're showing that their raw requirements are 2.42 and their design capacity at 2,09, and I don't -- I know you don't control that, but I don't think anybody does or monitors or watches them and I think they're -- you know, they're put in -- the thing's put in the deep well and they pulled out and didn't do that, and I think they're in trouble, And I don't know how to -- what do we do then? MR. GRAMATGES: I know that our utility doesn't control them, CDES may have some oversight responsibility over them, Page 59 September 6, 2007 COMMISSIONER TUFF: Should we be really alarmed about that, then? That's a big number. MR. GRAMA TGES: Well, I mean, we're concerned about any of the numbers that we didn't indeed receive and the fact that these numbers are not confirmed by us directly, So obviously all we're doing is -- all this is hearsay, So we have concerns about that. But there's nothing we can do about it, unfortunately. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Phil, I -- and I heard Mr. Murray say it under his breath, and he was probably -- I hope you don't mind me bringing it up, but you're right, he said structure the report differently, In those facilities where we have concerns about the validity of the documentation, shouldn't we make that real clear to DCA? I mean, should we be telling them that this information we believe is -- I mean, everything appears in this report, if you were to read it, oh, these guys, everything is right, this is where it is, we're fine, But in now delving into the various parts it finds that not all the information may have been received by the county so you could have done the job that appears to have been done, MR. GRAMATGES: Well, I thought we did that. We certainly can clarify that even further, I mean, sure, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, I know the outcome may be DCA may get upset. You know what, that may be just the pressure we need to get all the answers we need to do this even better. MR. COHEN: Well, there's two points, One, you're dealing with the best information available, And then the question becomes can you get better information? I mean, if we can't get it from them and we end up with an ORC from DCA that says, you know, we're not going to approve this until you do get it, and we can't get it, our hands are tied, So that becomes extremely problematic because we don't regulate them, And the county attorney's office may want to comment Page 60 September 6, 2007 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: It does give the county attorney's office something to do at this point. MS. STUDENT -STIRLING: We can look into -- MR. KLATZKOW: You want your report to be right. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's what we're trying to get to, MR. KLATZKOW: I mean, that's really the bottom line, And, you know, really, if you're not getting good information, tell them we're not getting good information, and be up front with it. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I would much rather see DCA add to our -- come basically behind us as the 800-pound gorilla to make these other places give us the better information on time, as it should be, if we're having trouble getting it. And that's all I'm suggesting is we playa little harder with the way we've written this thing, MR. GRAMATGES: Sure, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's just a comment. MR. GRAMATGES: Noted, All I can say is that we did what we could to get the information that we have, Now I can't say that the information is suspect. I mean, I have to assume that the information is correct. All I can tell you is that it is incomplete, because we requested information we didn't receive, As I said before, I personally visited the more recalcitrant of these four and I got stopped at the door. So it's not like they were willing to come out and help, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I have no doubt that your department has been aggressive as you can be in trying to get it peacefully, I think now maybe you need a little bit of assistance, And if that can be provided by the way you write the report to get a better reaction from DCA to demand more, that might help you, MR. GRAMA TGES: I understand, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Section 4 we're past. Section 5 is a 30-page section, Does anybody have any questions on Section 5? It's the planned water supply facilities, Page 61 September 6, 2007 (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Phil, if the daily demand decreased, your planned facilities would then change; is that correct? MR. GRAMA TGES: Well, of course, The A UIR that you will see shortly will show that we are proposing to modify the CIE to accommodate the decrease in population, So yes, indeed, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Good, Thank you, Anything else on Section 5? If not, we'll move to Section 6, (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Section 6 is a short five or six pages, Any questions on Section 6? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Section 7, conservation, regulation and practices, Any questions on Section 7? Ms, Caron? COMMISSIONER CARON: Well, first I just want to say that before this goes to the county commission and/or to DCA, you're going to want to have it reprinted, because Section 7 is out of order. Here it reads backwards, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, actually, no, they punched it out of order and they flipped it. I went back and repunched it and put it back in order. So you might want to reorganize those last few pages, They're all there -- COMMISSIONER CARON: They're all there, yes, MR, GRAMATGES: Oh, okay, I'm sorry, The version I'm looking at is the one I provided, so mine is in the right order. MS, VALERA: I'll fix mine. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Is that it, Ms, Caron? COMMISSIONER CARON: Yeah, I just wanted to make that comment before we got into the rest of Seven, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I started reading it and it was reading out of -- it's going to take a minute or two to repunch it. Page 62 September 6, 2007 Any other questions on Section 7? Mr. Midney? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: It looks like Page 7-3, and it's Section 7.2, Immokalee water and sewer district. There's a reference there that the applicant has stated they will request that the City of Immokalee enact any required ordinances, There is no such thing as the City of Immokalee, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Is it Barron Collier, then, or Barron County? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: I don't know what they're talking about. Immokalee is unincorporated, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Thomasville, MR. GRAMA TGES: We will look at that and we will use the right terminology, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: While you're at it then, on 7-4, 7.3 on Golden Gate, there is no City of Golden Gate on the last paragraph there as well, MR. GRAMATGES: Oh, okay, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Any other questions on Section 7? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: On the top of Page 7-5, Phil, the second paragraph, it talks about the Golden Gate utility, It says that the leak detection program will be started for 2003-4, Fiscal Year October, 2003, You might want to put that into more of a past tense, because I hope it was started, MR. GRAMATGES: Yeah, it was to be started, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Or can you confirm that it was or was not, through information? And if you can't, I would rather than say it was to be started, I would add to it that we cannot confirm whether this was started because we're lacking information from the utility, MR. GRAMATGES: Yeah, that's the way to go, yeah, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: That's right. Page 63 September 6, 2007 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Under 7-6, Page 7-6, it's Ave Maria 7,5, And it starts out, the conservation plan implemented by AMUC is described in the utilities consumptive use permit as follows, It seems to read that it was implemented, but then by the way it's written it seems to read as though it was just described in a permit. Does anybody verify that they implemented the standards on that page that were part of that permit? MR. GRAMA TGES: I can't answer that, no, I do know that we have indeed had conversations with Ave Maria and they have confirmed that in general terms they are following the requirements of the permit. As to this specific instance, I don't know, All I can tell you is that the language you see here was lifted right out of the consumptive use permit. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, each one of the paragraphs references the word will. It says one of the conservated town (sic) will pursue, I would rather that you could be more positive, the town has pursued, Because if they have implemented them that's a benefit to that community and to the county and to your report, And if you can't find that information, I would say we have no idea if the county pursued this as they said they would in their permit. And again, that may get you a better response from DCA. Any other questions on Section 7? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: How about Section 8? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, if you turn to the last couple of pages of the long tables before the appendix in Section 8, Phil, not due to any fault of yours, but you've had to say the following: Intentionally left blank, awaiting response to request from Immokalee, Same for Orangetree and the same for AMU. MR. GRAMA TGES: That's correct. Page 64 September 6, 2007 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I think that's a good way to do it. I think it points out that you've got not gotten the information, And I don't know how DCA could approve something without the information that's needed to approve it. Of course I'm wondering what you're going to ask us to approve now, But anyway, that's the end of the document. Are there any other document-wide comments that need to be made? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: We've gone through this whole thing in detail, Phil. I think we've provided you with some information, I made four notes of items that may need to be further discussed before it comes back for adoption, and you may want to look at them in your response going forward to the board, And anybody on the panel, when I get done, please comment. This is supposed to be a nine-member suggestion, So the first one is that we had talked about the who are we reporting for. We need to find legal basis as to why we are reporting for more than just Collier County and how that is consistent with the language in our GMP that references Collier County operations, So that's a legal issue that needs to be resolved, And at the same time we need to resolve the issue that Carolina brought up concerning the standardization of the demand capacity, I think you said 185 was required by South Florida, That needs to be either verified and incorporated or changed or modified, whatever the outcome of that study is, We also have some systems operating at a deficiency, which means they're non-feasible, And the report was supposed to be written to tell DCA on how we're going to attain feasibility, And I don't see that as an outcome unless we get the input from those other sources as to why they're not -- first of all, acknowledging they aren't feasible, Ifwe have to go to the 185, they're even more non-feasible, And then what they're going to do so we can tell DCA the exact answer that Page 65 September 6, 2007 we're supposed to be providing them with, So I think that's an important component that's not in here, Then the last thing, I think Mr, Midney and Ms, Caron have touched on it a couple of different times, it's the conservation measures, We've incorporated quite a few, but it really hasn't seemed to help our daily demand, And we have an inconsistency with what other facilities seem to think their daily demand is, And if the South Florida Water Supply Plan allows for a daily demand that isn't fixed at 185 and we can show through conservation that -- we can look at other conservation measures, I think a report like this ought to suggest those, And if it means -- I don't know what it would mean, If it means more ASR, if it means more whatever, I think that would be a goal we ought to suggest to DCA in regards to response to the feasibility of this plan for better reduction and demand, So those are my four comments, And I don't know if the panel agrees with them, disagrees or wants to supplement them, Anybody have any comments? COMMISSIONER MURRA Y: They're good comments, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: This is a transmittal, Margie, does this go forward with a formal recommendation or do we just make our comments like we have and then -- MS, STUDENT-STIRLING: Well, it would go forward with a recommendation to the board to transmit, and then your comments should be taken care of by the time we get to the board, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Is there a recommendation to move this to the Board of County Commissioners with a recommendation to transmit, subject to the comments we've made? COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: So moved, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Midney made the motion. Is there a second? COMMISSIONER MURRAY: (Indicating,) Page 66 September 6, 2007 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Mr. Murray made the second-- COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Could I hear the motion, please? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion was to submit this to the Board of County Commissioners with a recommendation to transmit, subject to the comments that we have supplied, COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Good, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, Any discussion? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: All those in favor, signify by saying aye, COMMISSIONER KOLFLAT: Aye, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye, COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye, COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye, COMMISSIONER TUFF: Aye, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye, Anybody opposed? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion carries, Thank you very much, Phil, we appreciate it. And thank you, Carolina, That certainly was an interesting discussion, Item #9 OLD BUSINESS And now old business, Does anybody have any issues in old Page 67 September 6, 2007 business they'd like to bring up? (No response,) Item #10 NEW BUSINESS CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Ifnot, our new business is the school concurrency overview presentation, And Michelle Mosca I believe is providing us with that. And I see Amy Taylor is in the audience as well. MS, MOSCA: Yes, good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, For the record, my name is Michelle Mosca with the Comprehensive Planning Department. Today the school district staff is here to provide an overview to the commission on school concurrency, Amy Taylor will present the overview, as well as answer any questions that you may have, The purpose of this overview is to provide the commission with a general understanding of the statutory requirements for school concurrency, This will assist in the preparation of the -- in your preparation of the September 20th hearing, the GMP transmittal hearings on school concurrency, Today staff will provide you with a binder, and this will include all of the review materials for September 20th, Within this binder you'll also find support documents such as 9-J-5, the Florida Administrative Code, With all that said, I'd like to turn the microphone over to Amy Taylor, unless you have some questions, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: I have one, Michelle, The school system is proposing some of the language, staff has reviewed some of the language, Amy is going to make a presentation, Have you and her concurred on her presentation? Are we hearing a presentation that Page 68 September 6, 2007 is agreed to and the conclusions accepted by county staff, or is that something that's going to be coming out of a report? Because I know this is a concurrency issue that involves the GMP, and our county staff has always been the ones that have written and provided us with the GMP information, So I want to make sure that you all are coordinated on this. Is that what's going to be coming forward? MS, MOSCA: Well, today's meeting again will just be an overview, Amy Taylor will go through the statutory requirements for school concurrency, And again, it will be a general overview, And we are in agreement of what the statutory requirements are in terms of what is needed, an interlocal agreement and so forth, to establish and implement the school concurrency program. At the September 20th meeting the commission will be provided with a more in-depth presentation by the school district's consultant. And you'll also have an opportunity to discuss all of the related growth management plan amendments to the capital improvement element, as well as the ISE and the interlocal agreement. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, Michelle, MS, MOSCA: You're welcome, MS, TAYLOR: Still morning, Good morning, I'm Amy Taylor, Collier County School District. And I just wanted to briefly go over what you can anticipate reviewing, We have it of course in this binder. This is -- a school concurrency is a -- what has always been with local governments, an option, And it would be as part of your comprehensive plan, an element to your comprehensive plan, And that is a component that you will have, Just to backtrack a little bit to provide you with some history, the school district and the county and the cities have been working together probably since -- in a more formalized manner through interlocal agreement since May, 2003, If you recall, there was an Page 69 September 6, 2007 interlocal agreement, not on site plan review, that's a whole different situation, but on coordinating with each other, sharing data, We're getting data from the county on your developments, on your population projections and so forth, And we respond to that and have responded to it through all capital planning processes that are required of us by the state, and also maintain an ability to provide classroom space for residential development. And it has been a very, very good relationship in that standpoint. What is this next step is to -- and how this will relate to the county, the cities and the school district forming a partnership is the first component of these new requirements, and that is interlocal agreement. This interlocal agreement on planning and coordinating with each other will be expanded to include school concurrency, It will establish -- this is the role that the school district has outlined, or the policies that are outlined that establish what will be in these new elements -- actually, a new element for the county, the same element for the cities, Naples, Everglades and Marco Island, That brings us to the changes that need to be made based on state statute to your comprehensive plan and the comprehensive plans of the cities, There will be a new -- and you'll be able to review it once you get the package of materials -- a new public schools facilities element. The basic premise is -- and you'll see this in the state statutes in 9-J-5 and so forth -- is that the public school facilities element has to, and the interlocal agreement supports this, has to establish a uniformed school system, And what that means is we could not have a different level of service for the City of Naples or county, We're going to have, you know, 85 percent filling of our schools in the county versus in Everglades City we're going to, you know, fill it to 100 percent. We can't have that. So it has to be a uniformed -- we have to be able to deliver services uniformly, regardless of jurisdictional boundaries, Page 70 September 6, 2007 But that's established, So the public schools facility element will include those policies to establish school concurrency and provide policies that are also reflected in our interlocal agreement in regard to coordinating with each other. The capital improvement element will also be amended to include policies of how our capital plans -- the school districts remain in control of their capital plan, remain responsible for ensuring that there is student space for every child that enters its system, But there is, again, establishing a relationship with our capital plans, Also in the inter-governmental coordination element, there are requirements to establish, again reflecting this relationship of coordinating with each other, that has been just in an interlocal agreement up to this point. I wanted to go over each of the components starting with the data and analysis that is required that would be support documentation to the public schools facility element. The data analysis includes our capital plan, which is updated annually and will be updated annually through the processes of submitting that to the county and the cities every year. It includes in this case to establish concurrency, and this can be modified as we evaluate from year to year, a student generation rate for different housing types, And it's a district wide student generation rate, And the basic components of that were the housing data from the property appraiser and our own student data that we have geocoded through a geographic information system, So there was a good ability to be able to match that real well. It also, through an analysis of our capital plan and how we're currently delivering services and have delivered services has helped us in establishing a level of service and what are -- and you're probably familiar with this with your own concurrency, what our concurrency service areas ought to be, Page 71 September 6, 2007 And in coordination with the county and the cities, we have -- we've been meeting since January on these things, We have established concurrency service areas. The state has given districts and local governments two options: You can either have a district-wide concurrency service area, or you can break it up into smaller concurrency service areas, We evaluate at the district level, and most school districts are not going this way, And actually, they do have to change it within a five-year period of time to go to smaller concurrency service areas, So many of them evaluate it pretty quickly and determine that from a geographic standpoint you would just be approving -- you would have capacity in various places and you -- for example, with Everglades City we have plenty of capacity, You would be approving development somewhere in a very distant part of the county because you had capacity in one particular school or another at a given point in time, So we decided very early on to look at concurrency service areas, And I wanted to bring this up because you will see these in your documents that you'll be getting in the data analysis. We had decided because of our really good coordination efforts with the county before, and our understanding of your measurements of population, and also our understanding of our own challenges, to go with basing our concurrency service areas on traffic analysis zones, It is a configuration of school -- a combination of school -- multiple school boundaries at the elementary, middle and high separate CSA's, You have to measure each of those impacts, And it is a -- it has sometimes up to two and three schools within each CSA. But it will be based on and tracked through this mechanism that is very understandable and clear for population and dwelling unit data and its impact on student growth, The other part of concurrency service areas that it is going to be very challenging, to say the least, is that part of the statute requires Page 72 September 6, 2007 that when a development proposal comes in, that when they look at the concurrency service area, and let's just say there is not capacity planned in that service area within our district's five-year capital plan, then they can look to the adjacent service area and see if there's capacity there, This can be a problem in isolated areas, and we've talked about this with Everglades City, where you could have development proposals coming in for -- in South Naples area and Marco Island and so forth that could get approved even if -- and this is just -- even if there was not capacity in those schools within that concurrency servIce area, So what -- we had a lot of discussions with DCA on this, And they allow concurrency service areas without schools in them, And they are really, for lack of a better term or a statutory term, they are buffer concurrency service areas to try to address that problem of distance -- and a situation like you would have for like a lake in between or disconnectivity with roads and so forth, So many districts are using a ghost or buffer concurrency service area, and that's what we've done in some of the areas in the county where there are state lands that surround Everglades City, for example, to address adjacency, Otherwise, we're very, very -- we haven't really been too concerned about this adjacency issue, We have to -- you know, we have to respond regardless and provide the space, The other issue is level of service, You will see through our data analysis that we determined we can meet a level of service for our elementary schools at a 95 percent level of service, In our middle and high schools it would be 100 percent level of service that we can achieve within a five-year period of time, You will see all these, you'll have the data analysis to show you how this was determined, Level of service is an interesting measurement for school districts, We have a state required mechanism or method to -- that Page 73 September 6, 2007 they determine through the size of the classroom, through the class size, which you've probably heard about the class size reduction amendment that we went through, that so many -- this school with this many classrooms is supposed to fit this many students, That is called FISH capacity, or Florida Inventory of School Houses capacity, determined by the State of Florida, There are some school districts that have chosen to go with what they call program capacity, We decided not to go in that direction, Program capacity, very briefly, is if you had a -- you would -- in many cases with program capacity you have a smaller capacity of that school than the FISH capacity, the permanent FISH capacity, And that is because you have special programs like special students, second language, various other programs where the classes are not 18 students, they are 10 students. It is unpredictable as programs change, as school boards determine how they're going to meet these special needs, These can shift and change from year to year and would be very difficult for a developer to count on, You know, these shifting -- these shifting needs or capacity of the school. So we decided early on to go with FISH capacity with the understanding that, you know, program capacity is pretty much how we operate, So that there could be a predictability for and a way in which this could be managed over time, Because if your capacities are constantly shifting, you're going to have an issue, The process -- again, I'll just quickly go through this, You are so familiar with amending your comprehensive plan through the transmittal hearings and through adoption phases, The DCA, as it does commonly, has published when districts and local governments are required to submit for public school -- for the public school concurrency, Ours is March 1st, 2008, So that's why we're beginning here with an overview for you, And September 20th you will be hearing these to consider for transmittal or Page 74 September 6, 2007 recommendation to your Board of County Commissioners for a transmittal to the Department of Community Affairs, The school board's role is to -- and your role with them is to, at the time at which they come back, we get our ORC report, we look, we see if there is any recommendations or objections or comments that we need to address jointly, Then at that point we make those adjustments and then the role between the school board and the local governments is to then enter into a final interlocal agreement. So around the January/February time frame that's going to be part of the discussion, is this an interlocal agreement. Which is what binds everyone together, We are very, very excited about being a part of the whole review process in being understood as a public facility provider. And not just merely as a developer and its impact surrounding the school. Just as you have your roads, your water and sewer, your parks, we are going to be part of that family in providing -- in having a direct link and understanding of the impact of residential development approvals onto not just your road system, not just your water and sewer, but also on the ability to provide public schools at a specific level of service, So we are excited and appreciate the opportunity, and we look forward to giving you a full presentation with a -- we have -- as you may have been updated, we have hired a firm, their name is Kimley Horn, and they have a -- they're the chief lead firm, They have a lot of experience with school concurrency, Many of them were part of Palm Beach, who is the only school district that took up the option for school concurrency back, I believe, in 1995, It was an option at that point. And they also were selected, And members of the team were selected, Other members of the team met with other firms, were selected to develop and work with pilot communities, so -- that were first required to build these documents and policies for school concurrency, So they have quite a bit of experience, And we look Page 75 September 6, 2007 forward to having you hear them and get more detail about what we're proposing here for transmittal. And any questions, I'd be happy to try and answer at this point. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, Amy, Are there any questions about Amy's presentation? (No response.) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Amy, will you be joining your new family on the CAUIR review in October? MS, TAYLOR: If they invite me, I'd be happy to come, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, it's a yearly review, and if you're an element of the CIE, which I understand you're going to be -- MS, TAYLOR: Yes, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: -- then you are intending that the CCPC and the Board of County Commissioners then review your facilities plans through the AUIR process? MS, TAYLOR: Yes. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Okay, then maybe staff when we finish can tell us if we're going to be getting your documentation in a few weeks to go along with the AUIR. MR. COHEN: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes, MR. COHEN: It's probably a time to address it. Our fiscal year with respect to capital improvements and the county's fiscal year with respect to capital improvements is different. They're required to adopt their CIE in conjunction with your budget by October 1st, wherein you're just getting your AUIR, So there's a disconnect that's there, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: That's why I asked the question, MR, COHEN: Okay, So in answering that question, and that's an issue that you'll see on the 20th as well, too, And there's no reason to get into it right now, but that is one of the disconnects, MS. TAYLOR: And we're always going to -- I think Chuck, he's part of -- Chuck Mohlke is part of our group, He brought up a very Page 76 September 6, 2007 good point, that we're always kind of a year behind you, And in a sense it's a good thing, in that we're responsive to your plans, your projections, particularly is what we have used in the development of-- as a component of understanding what our projections would be for students, We also have a very strict regulated way in which we develop our capital plan, I think probably other service providers would be envious of this because we are actually required and can take the official what they call October FTE, full-time equivalent student count. And then that is used to update our capital plan. That is an official count that is required by the state, So we take it through a process -- our AUIR, similar, starts then and takes a full year before adopting, So we're at the early stages of our establishing -- having established this relationship, We're going to be kind of working that, kind of getting that in sync, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, is it -- just so when we read your document, is it being read under the understanding that this panel will be one of the panels that you will be presenting your AUIR to? Now, it may be off-skewed from the rest of the county, but are we going to have then a separate AUIR hearing on the school board element each year in which you're going to produce your AUIR needs, which would also have your costs and projected capital improvement plans and all the rest of it? MS, T AYLOR: It is clear in state statute, and it's a way in which we can -- that we approve our capital plan, because we are responsible for making sure that we deliver those services, So that relationship that you have with your staff in terms of your public facilities are going to be different than the relationship that you would have with the school board and its purposes and approving its capital plan, However, at the level that we work with the county in determining the public facility needs, there's going to be very -- as you Page 77 September 6, 2007 attended, I noticed, our land acquisition committee, the counties and the cities are invited and attend those, The AUIR is a wonderful thing so that we can -- we behind the scenes collect all your information and figure out what you're doing and try to locate our schools there, This way there's going to be joint ways in which we are coordinating with each other. In terms of approving our capital plan, our school board does that, and it's very, very clear that that is maintained to make sure that we are meeting our services, meeting our students' needs, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, it doesn't sound then like we're going to be reviewing your AUIR. It sounds like that's done by you guys, you review it to try to be consistent with what the county develops, MS, TAYLOR: Yes, MR. COHEN: Mr. Chairman, and I don't really want to get into any in-depth discussion with respect to this now, this is another area of disconnect and an area that there's some disagreement. And it's probably more appropriate to discuss it on the 20th, But your point is well taken, And I think when you get your booklets and you read through them, you'll understand that a little bit more and you'll see why that question comes on up and how that disconnect exists, And I think it would be more appropriate for us to address it on the 20th when you've had ample time to read the materials, CHAIRMAN STRAIN : Well, I do -- MR. COHEN: But your point is well taken, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: My point is being made for one thing, and it's for the rest of the panel members in reviewing these documents and are these kind of issues that we will need to rely upon in our review of those documents, And if the reliance is not going to be there we need to understand that when we analyze the documents and come forward with our critique on the 20th, That's kind of where Page 78 September 6, 2007 I was trying to -- MR. COHEN: Mr. Chairman, your point is that when the CIE is formally adopted every year, which would be -- normally it's going to be in the spring, it has to be before December 1 st, but we'll have like a spring adoption, normally, because of the way our AUIR process goes, They will have already completed their review in October. So we have that disconnect of you going through a process, And as far as not seeing that as part of the AUIR, the question then becomes when you see the AUIR and the CIE, it's not there, So that point is one of the ones that we need to discuss on the 20th, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: And disconnects cost somebody money, so let's just make sure we figure that out too in the process on the 20th, One more question, Amy, CSAs, are they -- in your document, will you be defining how those are regulated and the way they're formed and how they're formed? MS, TAYLOR: Yes, There is in the public schools facility element a way in which that they are incorporated through the support documentation, the way in which that they can be modified and who can do that and who's to approve, and so on, so forth, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Thank you, Any other questions of Amy? (No response,) CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Well, we'll look forward to some I'm sure enlightening reading, MS, TAYLOR: Yes, there's a lot. CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Yes, Thank you, Okay, and with that, we were finished with new business, Public comment on this part of to day's meeting, Discussion of the addenda, With that, we'll look for a motion to adjourn this meeting so we can hang around and reopen a new one, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: I so move to adjourn this meeting, Page 79 September 6, 2007 CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Motion made to adjourn, All in favor, signify by saying aye, COMMISSIONER KOLFLA T: Aye, COMMISSIONER SCHIFFER: Aye, COMMISSIONER CARON: Aye, COMMISSIONER ADELSTEIN: Aye, COMMISSIONER VIGLIOTTI: Aye, COMMISSIONER MURRAY: Aye, COMMISSIONER MIDNEY: Aye, COMMISSIONER TUFF: Aye, CHAIRMAN STRAIN: Aye, Motion carries, The meeting is adjourned, ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by Order of the Chair at 11:07 a,m, COLLIER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION MARK STRAIN, Chairman These minutes approved by the Board on as presented or as corrected Page 80