CLB Minutes 05/18/2022May 18, 2022
1
MINUTES
OF THE COLLIER COUNTY
CONTRACTORS’ LICENSING BOARD MEETING
May 18, 2022
Naples, Florida
LET IT BE REMEMBERED that the Collier County Contractors’ Licensing Board, having conducted
business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Administrative Building F,
3rd Floor, Collier County Government Center, Naples, Florida, with the following members present:
Chair: Kyle Lantz (excused)
Vice Chairman: Terry Jerulle
Matthew Nolton
Richard E. Joslin
Patrick G. White (excused)
Todd Allen
Robert Meister III
Elle Hunt
Stephen Jaron (excused)
ALSO PRESENT:
Kevin Noell, Esq., Contractor Licensing Board Attorney (via Phone Call)
Timothy Crotts, Contractor Licensing Supervisor
Colleen Kerins, Assistant Collier County Attorney
Timothy Broughton, Collier County Licensing Investigator
Michael Governale, Collier County Licensing Investigator
Jonathan Walsh, Chief Building Official
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Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this Board will need a record of the proceedings and may
need to ensure that a verbatim record of said proceedings is made, which record includes the testimony
and evidence upon which any appeal is to be made.
1. ROLL CALL:
Acting Chairman Jerulle opened the meeting at 9 a.m.
Roll call was taken; five members were present in the BCC Chambers at roll call; a sixth joined later.
Mr. Crotts said Board Members Lantz, Jaron and White have excused absences and provided prior
notices. They asked to approve their absences.
Acting Chairman Jerulle approved the absences.
2. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS:
None
3. APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
Board Member Nolton moved to approve the agenda. Board Member Joslin seconded the motion.
It was carried unanimously, 5-0.
4. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
A. Approval of Minutes for April 20, 2022
Board Member Nolton moved to approve the April 20, 2022, meeting minutes. Board
Member Joslin seconded the motion. The motion carried unanimously, 5-0.
5. PUBLIC COMMENTS:
None
6. DISCUSSION:
None
7. REPORTS:
8. NEW BUSINESS:
A. ORDERS OF THE BOARD
Board Member Joslin made a motion to have the Chairman sign the Orders of the Board. Board
Member Allen seconded the motion. The motion was carried unanimously, 5-0. The Orders of the
Board were approved.
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B. Christopher Green – Cameron Carpentry Naples LLC – Cabinet Installation Contractor
Review of Credit
Acting Chairman Jerulle called Mr. Green to the podium and he was sworn in.
Mr. Crotts reported that Mr. Green has submitted an application for the issuance of a specialty
license of cabinet installation, a license that requires 24 months of experience and a minimum
credit score of 660. As part of the application process under Collier County Ordinance 2006-46,
Section 2.3.9, Mr. Green was required to submit a personal credit report. Mr. Green’s credit
report was reviewed and appears not to meet the financial responsibility as set forth in Section
2.5.1, Subsection D. The applicant or qualifier meets the requirement of financial responsibility
as set forth in Rule 61G4-15.006 from the state of Florida.
A review of the submitted credit report shows the following area of concern. Mr. Green’s credit
report shows 0 for a credit score. He conducted a phone interview with Mr. Green regarding the
credit score and he stated that he pays for everything in cash and has never really needed
credit. He told me he understands the need for credit in running his business and is currently
working with a bank to help build his credit score.
Because Mr. Green does not meet the requirement, as far as the minimum credit score, by
Ordinance, Mr. Green is being referred to the Board under Section 2.5.2, Referral of the
Applicant to the Contractors’ Licensing Board for a Decision. Mr. Green is here today to answer
your questions.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said zero? I don’t believe we’ve had a zero before.
Board Member Joslin said never.
Mr. Green said he lives in a rented apartment and doesn’t feel he has a need for credit cards.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said living in an apartment should be a basis for some sort of credit.
Mr. Green said it’s not, but a couple of months ago, he started paying his rent through an
organization that apparently will start to report his credit score, but the HOA doesn’t report it.
Board Member Joslin asked if he pays his rent with cash.
Mr. Green said he pays with a check.
Mr. Board Member Nolton said he’d make a motion for six months’ probation and then report
whether his credit score changes.
Mr. Crotts said he recommended a 12-month probationary license, and at the end of six months,
Mr. Green must supply a credit score to show that he is now building credit, and then at the end of
12 months, he must show he’s maintained that credit with no issues.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if he had a company now.
Mr. Green said he didn’t, he’d been working for other companies.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked what debts he currently has.
Mr. Green said he had none.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked, So your testimony is that you don’t owe anybody anything?
Mr. Green said that was true.
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Board Member Joslin asked how many businesses do we know like that?
Board Member Nolton said he would amend his motion to Mr. Crotts’ recommended motion.
And if he comes back in 12 months and he still has a zero credit but he owes nobody money and
he’s been running a business, he had no problem with that either.
Acting Chairman Jerulle told him that in the meantime, he should work on his credit.
Mr. Green said he’s been speaking with his bank manager, who suggested that he get one of the
credit cards where you put down money. He said a few months after he takes out one with the
bank, he would be inundated with other offers and to take one or two more to start building his
credit.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if he was agreeing to do that.
Mr. Green said he was.
[Board Member Meister joined the meeting at 9:07 a.m.]
Board Member Nolton made a motion to approve the Specialty License of Cabinet Installation
with 12 months of probation and he must speak to Mr. Crotts in six months to show there’s
nothing negative and he’s moving toward establishing credit, and at the end of 12 months, if
his credit is still good, the probation will be lifted. Board Member Allen seconded the motion.
The motion passed unanimously, 6-0.
C. Ryan D. Pettit – Ryan Pettit LLC – Residential Contractor – Review of Experience
Acting Chairman Jerulle called Mr. Green to the podium and he was sworn in.
Mr. Crotts reported that Mr. Pettit has submitted an application for the issuance of a Certificate
of Competency for a Residential Contractor, a license that requires 48 months of experience. As
part of the staff review process, Mr. Pettit submitted one Verification of Experience and two
letters of reference. Those contractors were contacted and the following information was
supplied:
• AVA Builders of Naples (A. Vernon Allen Builders), which is a state certified general
contractor. He worked for them from May 2014 to January 2019. The principal owner
reported that Mr. Pettit was an employee during this time. Mr. Pettit did finish carpentry
and small projects, which included bath remodels. However, none of the work done by Mr.
Pettit was considered major.
• Creative Lighting & Electric. Mr. Pettit was not an employee of this company at any
time. According to Mr. Morris, who completed the letter of reference, Mr. Pettit did some
trim work and hung interior and exterior doors at Mr. Morris’ private residence. This
work was done over time, but no dates could be given.
• Shoreline Custom Painting Inc. Mr. Pettit was not an employee and was a friend of the
company president, who said Mr. Pettit helped him build a set of stairs at the back of his
private residence. No other work was done.
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During an in-person interview with Mr. Pettit, he spoke about his experience over the past 22
years. Mr. Pettit is looking to exceed a Carpenters License so that he can do more extensive
projects and so he can subcontract electrical and plumbing contractors, when required.
Based upon the information received from Mr. Pettit, it is staff’s opinion that Mr. Pettit does not
meet the experience required under Ordinance 2006-46, Section 1.6.1.3, as it relates to the trade
of Residential Contractor. Mr. Pettit is here today under Section 2.5.2, Referral of the Application
to the Contractors’ Licensing Board for A Decision.
Acting Chairman Jerulle told Mr. Pettit that now is the time that you get the state your case
because the County says that they don’t believe you’re qualified for a license or have enough
experience. If you want to convince us, now is the time.
Mr. Pettit said he’s been in the business since he was a kid. He did many things for AVA, which
he feels was understated. He’s been in all aspects of building homes from the ground up
throughout the years. He passed the test and asked what else he could provide to prove his
experience.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said it’s his burden to convince them. (He noted there was a flag in the
room and asked Mr. Pettit to remove his hat.) To give you a residential license, that will allow you
to build a single-family home, so can you tell us what experience you had associated with
concrete and foundations?
Mr. Pettit said none, that was all subcontracted out.
Board Member Nolton asked what knowledge he had about it.
Mr. Pettit said none, but he can read blueprints If it calls for two different types of rebar and he
sees one type of rebar in the hole, he can point that out. Every contractor he’s worked with
subcontracted out that work.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said a lot of businesses have project superintendents to oversee that
work. Were you ever in that capacity?
Mr. Pettit said he was not.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if he currently had a license.
Mr. Pettit said he had none.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if he wanted to build single-family homes.
Mr. Pettit said he wants to be able to do remodels and pull permits, and at least pull permits to do
exterior doors or bathroom remodels. He’s not interested in building single-family homes.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said that’s the license he’s applying for. Mr. Crotts, is there another
license he could apply for?
Mr. Crotts said the closest one that would fit his criteria for the experience he has is carpentry.
Mr. Pettit asked how that would limit him permit-wise.
Mr. Crotts said he’d be able to pull permits as a carpenter, however, it will limit you on the scope
of your work.
Mr. Pettit said a lot of the GCs in town, even the principle of AVA, Ryan Benson, never had a
job in concrete or foundations or anything. How do they get those licenses?
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Acting Chairman Jerulle said that’s through the State, not through us, so he can’t answer that.
But must have had to prove that. He has the same license that I do, so you have to prove through
the State that you have some experience. But we’re trying to get you going. One avenue that I see
is the Carpentry License and doing that for some time and then coming back in front of the Board
after you’ve proved yourself and maybe apply for your residential license.
Mr. Pettit said OK, if that’s what he has to do, he will take that suggestion.
Board Member Nolton asked Mr. Crotts if he had experience for that license.
Mr. Crotts said he did and staff would have no problem issuing a Carpenter License. That does
require 36 months of experience. Based upon the information received from AVA Builders and
from what Mr. Pettit has said, he has no issue with that license. His recommendation would be to
deny the application for Residential Contractor and then have Mr. Pettit come in and complete the
application for a Carpentry License.
Board Member Allen asked if he could withdraw it today.
Mr. Crotts said he could withdraw it.
Board Member Joslin he wouldn’t have to come back here and could get that license straight
from staff.
Acting Chairman Jerulle told him if he withdrew his application, they would not have to vote,
which could be advantageous. He could go see Mr. Crotts and apply to get the license without
coming back to the Board.
Board Member Joslin advised him to be aware of the scope of that license. Don’t get involved in
doing something that you can’t do because that’s going to be a mark against you if you come back
before us.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said to get that license and then come back next year, make an
application and tell the Board that he came before them the year before.
Mr. Pettit withdrew his application. He asked where he goes from here.
Mr. Crotts said he could contact the Licensing Office and they’ll walk him through the process
of applying for a Carpentry License.
D. Jozef Kindernay – KIPA LLC dba TNT Cabinetry of Naples LLC – Building Contractor
Review of Experience
Acting Chairman Jerulle called Mr. Kindernay to the podium and he was sworn in.
Mr. Crotts reported that Mr. Kindernay submitted an application for the issuance of a Certificate
of Competency for a Building Contractor, a license that requires 48 months of experience. Mr.
Kindernay currently holds an active Cabinet Install Certificate of Competency from Collier
County; there have been no issues. As part of the staff review, Mr. Kindernay submitted three
Verifications of Experience from licensed contractors. These contractors were contacted and the
following information was supplied:
• Associated Contracting Inc., a state certified general contractor. He worked there from
April 2018 to the present. The qualifier said Mr. Kindernay was not a full-time employee but
had partnered with his company. Mr. Kindernay’s work experience consisted of bath and
kitchen remodels and renovations in single-family homes and some condos. Mr. Kindernay
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has no new-build experience with that company.
• Biltmore Remodeling LLC, a state certified general contractor. Mr. Kindernay was
employed from January 2013 to January 2015. The qualifier reported that Mr. Kindernay
was not an employee, but worked on projects as a subcontractor. The qualifier has seen Mr.
Kindernay do carpentry, drywall and painting. Mr. Kindernay has no new-build experience
with Biltmore Remodeling.
• Mathis Construction Co. After several attempts to contact the person who completed the
Verification of Experience, we received no information and none of this information could
be verified.
During an in-person interview with Mr. Kindernay, he spoke about his experience and submitted
a resume, which has been included in his application packet. He confirmed his experience is
mostly remodeling single-family homes and condominiums. He confirmed he has not built any
type of commercial buildings, and his experience in single-family and two-story homes is
limited. Mr. Kindernay’s goal is to be able to contract for renovations and remodels of single-
family homes and condominiums, not to contract for new-builds.
Based upon the information received from Mr. Kindernay, it is staff’s opinion that he does not
meet the requirements under Ordinance 2006-46, Section 1.6.1.2, as it relates to Building
Contractor. Mr. Kindernay is being referred to the Board under Section 2.5.2, Referral of the
Applicant to the Licensing Board for A Decision.
Acting Chairman Jerulle told him that it’s upon him to convince the Board. The County does
not feel he has enough experience for a Contractor’s License.
Mr. Kindernay said he applied for a Building Contractor license because he felt it would be an
easier license to get than a General Contractor License, less time consuming. He wants to improve
his scope of work and do more work under the umbrella of a Building License. He does have a
Painting License, a Tile and Marble License, and a Cabinet License. He started his construction
career in 2001 and was exposed to new construction the most for the first two years. He worked
under Tri-City Electric Contractors and Encompass Contracting Group and built places such as
Regent and some residential buildings, such as Deer Crossing at Fiddlers Creek.
In that capacity, he would prepare the underground installation, together with other
subcontractors. That means electrical plumbing underground, where we cooperated with
others. He wasn’t a supervisor, but was a skilled worker. They would meet at job site and
schedule the work for each team and participate on day-to-day tasks. Then at the end, we would
finish the underground installations, prepare it for the concrete contractors, who would do the
mesh work on the framing for the foundations. After we were done, they would pour the concrete
and we’d be responsible for running the piping to the transformers, to the hookups for the
building. After the building was done, we would then get in and do all the rough installations,
then we’d do all the finishing work, so it was step-by-step, going through house-to-house,
building-to-building and cooperating with the roofers, the fire guys and all the subcontractors on
the day-to-day functions of the procedures in building a house. Sometimes we had asphalt.
We learned all the safety protocols, personal protection, full protection, fire protection, all
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that. That was his main new-construction experience at that time, and cranes, all that during
commercial building. Then he became independent and worked for different contractors, painters
and general contractors in different capacities, but always as a remodeler individually on different
trades. For the last four or five years, he was with Associates Contracting Inc. and was responsible
for supervising, running and taking the job from beginning to the end on kitchens and bathrooms,
sometimes full remodels of a unit. He would take it from meeting the customer, estimating the
job, preparing the plans for the permits, running the whole permit process and submitting
paperwork in person, or online after COVID.
He also went to the courthouse to file the Notice of Commencement, Corrections and he’s
experienced in CAD design and reading plans. He can do all that. He also would bring in the
subcontractors, organize them, synchronize them, and take the job from demo to finish, to the fine
details and close the job, review it with the owner and close it. He worked for different
contractors, as well as a subcontractor as a partner. He worked for Lycos Group, mostly as a
cabinet contractor, and had some experience with Gates Builders on their personal property, as
well as others over that time.
He understands the license he’s applying for allows him to do more than he would want to, but
he’d mostly be focusing on residential remodels and commercial, without modifying any
structural members as stated in the license description. He would not necessarily want to build
new construction. If he were going to start with residential, he’d probably try that on his own
home first. And he definitely doesn’t want to go into commercial building. It’s very hard to get
into because you need a financial support and usually it’s taken by a bigger groups, anyway, and
comes with a lot of responsibility that he doesn’t want.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said that’s the license you applied for.
Mr. Kindernay said he understands the license allows for it. That’s why he’s pleading his
case. He understands there is a possibility to have a restriction on the license for just remodels and
having the new construction portion restricted, with the possibility for a review when he is more
experienced in that area. For now, he’d be doing remodels without any structural modifications.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked Mr. Crotts if there was a remodeling license.
Mr. Crotts said that would fall under the Carpentry License, which would allow him to do
remodels. The only thing he would not be able to do is subcontract any Division 2 electrical,
plumbing, etc. The homeowner would be required to contract directly with those trades.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked Mr. Kindernay if he was asking the Board to allow him to build
commercial buildings.
Mr. Kindernay said no, he doesn’t understand the license.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said that’s the license you have applied for. You could do what you
want to do even if you had just a residential license. But he just doesn’t see the experience, the
concrete, the structural members of the house. You don’t have that experience.
Mr. Kindernay said he hadn’t built anything himself like that. It was always
subcontracted. Associated Contracting specializes just in that, but they don’t build a whole. They
just do concrete and the walls.
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Acting Chairman Jerulle said someone with a license through the state can do that type of work.
He knows some of the problems he’s going to run into and he doesn’t know if he’s going to have
the experience to resolve some of those issues. Does anybody on the Board have any questions?
Board Member Joslin agreed. He definitely doesn’t see that he’s qualified to do any commercial
work and he’s not even sure about residential. Otherwise, some one of these affidavits would have
listed that he was a superintendent or something that would qualify him to have more
responsibility. He’s hearing it, but not seeing it.
Mr. Kindernay said he’s done all the work. He’s done parts of the remodel process himself at
some point and he can supervise it. He can take it from the beginning to the end. All he needs is a
license so he can subcontract trades and do it under his own license, with the possibility of a
restriction for new construction, if you allow that.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked Mr. Crotts for staff’s recommendation.
Mr. Crotts said staff’s recommendation would be that Mr. Kindernay consider the Carpentry
License to allow himself to get his experience built up in his own company with remodeling. Get
some experience under that license and then come forward later, maybe for residential, or get in
with a contractor who does the remodeling and the building of commercial and residential homes
and get that experience and then come back before the Board.
Mr. Kindernay asked if the Residential License would allow him to proceed with some
restrictions.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said that’s not what he applied for.
Mr. Kindernay said he understood.
Board Member Hunt said that when you put a restriction on a license, it’s up to the County to
check that every time you pull a permit and it’s not something that they’ve got the bandwith to do.
Whereas with the Carpentry License, the only thing that license will restrict you from is
subcontracting out for plumbing and electrical.
Mr. Kindernay asked if he’d still be able to pull permits with that license.
Board Member Nolton said he could pull permits for doing the carpentry work. The owner or the
client would have to directly hire the plumber or electrician. That would be through them and that
would be permitted.
Mr. Kindernay asked if he could still work on condos and high rises.
Mr. Crotts said no, condos are considered commercial.
Board Member Nolton said he believed that’s the reason he applied for this is because he wants
to do remodels and condominium buildings, which fall under commercial.
Mr. Kindernay said this license allows that without moving structural, to do remodels within the
unit without modifying any of the elements. After 45-plus permitted jobs that he’s been through,
he doesn’t see how the Carpentry License will give him any more experience than he already has.
But he will do what the Board says.
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Board Member Nolton said part of the problem with the commercial, even if we limited it to
remodeling, it includes the structural elements of the storefronts, the windows, the sliding-glass
doors. Most of the condos he deals with, when they renovate, run into that when they’re
renovating those units. It’s technically part of the structure.
Mr. Kindernay said he’d seen builders do that, but he wouldn’t be doing that.
Acting Chairman Jerulle told him that’s the license he’s asking the Board to approve.
Board Member Allen said he could withdraw and apply for a Carpentry License or ask the Board
to vote.
Mr. Kindernay said that wouldn’t make sense. Does he need to apply for the Carpentry License?
Mr. Crotts said yes, and that would be a very minor alteration to his current application.
Board Member Allen asked if he’d need to go before the Board.
Mr. Crotts said he would not have to.
Mr. Kindernay withdrew his application.
E. Shirley R. Hall – Novello Concrete Division Inc. – Concrete Placing and Finishing
Contractor – Review of Experience
Acting Chairman Jerulle called Ms. Hall to the podium and she and three witnesses (general
contractors Tommy Turner, Rory O’Neill and Alex Parker III) were sworn in.
Mr. Crotts reported that Ms. Hall submitted an application for the issuance of a Certificate of
Competency as a Concrete Placing and Finishing Contractor, a license that requires 36 months
of experience. As part of the staff review process, Ms. Hall submitted the required Verification of
Experience and the following information was received and resulted in interviews of the
submitters:
• AP Builders Construction Services, a State-certified building contractor
• FC Homes Inc., a State-certified building contractor
• Fetterhoff O’Neill Home Builders, a local residential contractor.
After speaking to the owner and presidents of those companies, it was learned that all work done
by Novello Concrete Division was done by Ms. Hall’s husband, who is currently ill. He currently
holds the Concrete Placing and Finishing license for the company.
It was reported that Ms. Hall was the person who took care of all the office work, including
billing, estimating costs, scheduling with contractors and building relationships with
businesses. In a phone interview with Ms. Hall, she stated that the majority of the concrete work
was done by her husband, but she would assist him on occasions and mostly ran the office to get
estimates, do scheduling and permits.
Based upon the information received from Ms. Hall, it is staff’s opinion that Ms. Hall does not
meet the experience under Ordinance 2006-46, Section 1.6.3.10, as it relates to the trade of
Concrete Placing and Finishing. Ms. Hall is being referred to the Board under Section 2.5.2,
Referral of the Applicant to the Contractors’ Licensing Board for a Decision. Ms. Hall is here
today to answer your questions.
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Acting Chairman Jerulle told Ms. Hall to tell the Board why it should vote in her favor.
Ms. Hall testified that she’s been with her husband since he started the company in 1992 or
1993. They’ve worked hand-in-hand, but she worked for the Federal government, as well. She’s
always a hands-on person. She’s not an inside person and she and her husband have built three
homes, even though these gentlemen haven’t seen her work hands-on with her husband. She does
know what’s she’s doing, except when it comes to Concrete Place and Finishing. Her husband is
very ill. When she took the test with him back when he took it, he passed and they both passed the
business part. She didn’t need to do the finishing part because he passed it, and he’s taught her
along the way. He told her she needs to take it now because he got ill last year and said if he
should pass away, he wanted to make sure she’s provided for.
He told her he knew she could do the work because he’s seen her do it. He wanted to be here, but
couldn’t make it today. She’s been running the company since he got ill last year. She does all the
bidding. The foreman has been with them since Day One. She assists and he takes photos and gets
her approval before he does anything on a day-to-day basis, even though she’s not in the field
with him.
Now she’s retired and is the caregiver for her husband. She did a big bid for AP Builders and
evidently did well because he gave us the job. She wished that FCI Homes could be here. They’ve
been there since her husband has been sick, with Gary Beaumont and now Jason, and she’s sure
they could testify on her behalf that she’s done a good job because they keep giving us work. Her
husband hasn’t been able to do anything since last year and his main concern is that we will be
provided for if he does not make it through this.
She is hands-on, even though these guys haven’t seen her hands on. Tommy Turner knows her
character, even though he hasn’t seen her work hands-on. She wouldn’t say she could do
something when she couldn’t do it. The only person who could verify that is her husband and he
can’t make it here because he’s home and her son had to take off work to be with him today. He
wants the business to continue if he dies. We have a foreman who has been with us since Day
One. He works with him and the company has been running very smoothly. She’s sure these guys
could testify that they’re satisfied with the quality of work she’s been doing since her husband’s
illness.
Mr. Turner testified that he’d been here all his life and was raised here. He has a General
Contractor’s License, but doesn’t use it. He’s had the State license since the early 1980s and has
been in the masonry and concrete business since he was a teenager. He’s held a license with the
County since the beginning and used to have to have a license in the City of Naples.
He knows Ms. Hall and her husband very well and she worked for the federal government for 40
years. Her husband, Willie, is very competent and does a very good job or he wouldn’t continue
to have the same people work for him for 20-something years. Willie fell sick with cancer. He
warned Willie that if he died, he only had a certain amount of time to get his affairs in order and
finish his contracts before his company would cease. He has a good crew and foreman and his
wife knows everything there is to know about the business.
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He advised Ms. Hall to apply to get her license so she’s legal. Failure in our business isn’t from
bad work. The inspectors in Florida are the best and toughest in the country, so even if Ms. Hall’s
workers get it wrong, they’re going to get it right before you pour it.
Most businesses fail due to money. Ms. Hall is pretty smart when it comes down to the
money. She’s sharp. She passed the federal test and got a great Federal job, so he knows she’s
very knowledgeable. As far as having the ability to use a trowel, he wasn’t certain about that.
She’s got finances and the money. If her husband does pass away, she needs to have her act
together, when it comes to the law and that’s why she came here.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked Mr. Turner if he hires Ms. Hall’s company.
Mr. Turner said no, he doesn’t hire. But Ms. Hall’s husband subcontracts with the same
businesses that he does.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said, so you don’t hire them? Ms. Hall’s company is your
competition?
Mr. Turner testified that was correct. The Halls’ integrity is above grade. If the Board needs
to know anything more about Willie Hall’s integrity, they can ask him questions.
Acting Chairman Jerulle pointed out that they were here to determine Ms. Hall’s
experience, not Willie’s.
Mr. Parker testified that he’s a general contractor and the Halls’ story is gut-wrenching.
He’s been on Marco Island for 16 years as a general contractor and Willie Hall has done all
his flat work, foundation work and other work. He didn’t realize how seriously he’d declined.
He’s worked with Ms. Hall for years. She’s intimate with the job and she goes to Marco
Island and knows the business. She is looking toward the future and wants to stay in
business. She has an incredible foreman, Juan, who has been with her for 20 years. Every job
that he works with him, we go through the whole process. He’s on the phone, constantly meeting
with or talking with Ms. Hall. She comes out to Marco Island and meets with the builders, goes
over the plans and is intimately involved in the jobs.
Would she stand here and say she put on the gloves and the white boots and poured a driveway
and finished a sidewalk? No, she wouldn’t do that, but she knows the business. She knows what
Willie poured his heart and his lifeblood into it to make the company what it is. They’re looking
for the future to sustain this corporation that’s been going on for so many years and she’s got the
knowledge and the ability to keep it moving, apart from putting a trowel in her hand and giving a
nice smooth finish on your sidewalk. There’s more to it than that. He does understand what’s
required for license, but he believes this is an exception.
Mr. O’Neill testified he’s been a resident of Marco Island since 1969 and began working for
Deltona in 1971 and they put up 800 homes the year he was with them. His company started in
1976 when Deltona pulled out. He’s built 90 two-story homes on his own since he came on board
that company in 1993. He took over the company in 2001. He’s hired the Halls’ company and
used their concrete for all 90 of the homes he built.
The Halls have been doing all his concrete work. He hired them. They didn’t need a license
because his Contractor License covers them. They’ve been working for him for 30 years without
May 18, 2022
13
that license and used his. They have insurance and a business license and a County business
license. He’ll continue to use the Halls’ company. He has a project going on now and the Halls’
company has done $70,000 in concrete work on a home he’s doing a $1 million renovation on and
a lot of it is concrete work. He’ll need them to do the pool slab. He’s starting a three-story coastal
home with an observation deck on the fourth floor, and the Halls already have done two of his
coastal homes on the beach.
This woman knows everything about concrete. Her employee, Juan, knows more about concrete
than anyone in the County. He’d put them up against anybody. He’s done all his work and he’s
asked for some really strange things because he used to be a structural designer with Edison
Engineering, so he does a lot of new things on homes. The Halls’ company gets to it right away.
They do cantilevers, a lot of structural items that aren’t very typical that most people won’t
do. They’ve gotten him through a lot of technical concrete work. There’s no reason she should not
be able to carry on with the operation they have. It is airtight. He’s never had a complaint and
Willie is one of his best friends.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked Ms. Hall if her husband has a license for this and asked if she’s
continuing to use that license.
Ms. Hall said yes.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if what she’s trying to do is get a secondary license.
Ms. Hall said she was. She wants to ensure that if he doesn’t make it, that the company survives.
He works hard and she knows about concrete because she was hands-on. They haven’t seen her
build because we built three homes ourselves. They have done a lot of work in Golden Gate. She
is knowledgeable about how to order concrete, how to place it, how to finish it and he’s taught me
and if he doesn’t make it, she will be provided for. He wanted her to prove that she knows it.
That’s why she took the test.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked Mr. Crotts if the Concrete Placing and Finishing License
allows them to do tie beams and columns.
Ms. Hall said her husband does do that work, including structural steel for columns and tie
beams.
Mr. O’Neill testified that the Halls’ company just did 300 feet of tie beams for his company.
Mr. Crotts said under Concrete Placing and Finishing, it means that the person is qualified to
pour, place and finish concrete, flat work, floors, slabs, on grade, sidewalks, etc., including the
placement of mesh reinforcement, plastic-vapor barrier, edge form incidental thereto. The
category does not include the plastering of an interior pool. That is the definition of that trade.
Board Member Joslin asked if the term flat-work meant on the ground.
Mr. Crotts said tie beams are not on the ground. That particular license would fall under the next
category up.
Ms. Hall asked if it was Concrete Forming.
Mr. Crotts said one is Concrete Forming and Placing, which qualifies the applicant to mix, and
match concrete to the water, agreeable to specifications to construct forms, framework for casting
and shaping of concrete to place miscellaneous embedded steel, to pour, place and finish the
concrete. The one below that is Concrete Finishing, which is basically for slabs, sidewalks, etc.
Board Member Joslin said that’s flatwork on the ground, which is the one he has now.
May 18, 2022
14
Ms. Hall said her husband has forming.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said it sounded like she might be doing work outside the license and
asked if it would be better to get another license. He wasn’t sure this was the license she wants.
Board Member Joslin said because of the testimony they just heard, they just assumed he was
doing flat work or elevation, but flat work. When you start mentioning tithings and other things,
columns and all that, they require a different license.
Board Member Nolton said she applied for a lower license, which may not cover what she
needs.
Ms. Hall said her husband has a Concrete Placing and Finishing License and that’s what she
applied for. If the Board grants the license for Concrete Placing and Finishing, would she have to
go back and apply for forming also?
Board Member Joslin asked her, To do what? You want to be involved, Maybe your license is
going to satisfy what you want to do later, but right now, if you want to continue what your
husband has been doing, then you’re going to have to get that license to be able to continue that
type of business.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if her husband had Concrete Forming and Finishing. Why didn’t
she apply for that license?
Ms. Hall said it used to be one combined test. They don’t offer a combined test anymore. She
wasn’t sure which one to take. She could now take Concrete Forming.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said if they gave her this license, she wouldn’t be able to do tie beams,
just her husband could.
Ms. Hall said if the Board grants this license, she can apply for the other.
Mr. Crotts said they’re verifying his license now. It says Concrete Placing and Finishing.
Ms. Hall said she has paperwork to prove he also has Concrete Forming.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said they’re here for a Placing and Finishing License and if you have
to use your license, it’s going to restrict what you can do. He wanted to make sure she understood.
Ms. Hall said she understood.
Board Member Nolton said it says you own 50% of the business. He asked how long she’d been
retired.
Ms. Hall said she has owned that for about a year. She’s been retired for 38 years and has been
working with her husband since then.
Board Member Nolton noted that her husband is a licensed contractor, so he could sign off on
her qualifications and experience to say that she worked with him in that time frame. So, we could
have a document here from him saying that you worked in this business with him for that time.
That would give you many more months than is required.
Ms. Hall said yes.
Attorney Kerins said the Halls’ company has a Concrete Forming and Placing License.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if the foreman, Juan, has any ownership in the company.
Ms. Hall said no.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if Juan is the one with the most field experience, besides your
May 18, 2022
15
husband?
Ms. Hall said yes.
Board Member Joslin asked if it would be in her best interests to table this particular license and
then wait or should we continue?
Acting Chairman Jerulle said he thought it would behoove the Board to vote on this, give her
this license and then if she wants to take the other test, then she could come back and she could
prove her experience, like Mr. Nolton said, by having her husband sign off on some of the
experience.
Board Member Joslin said OK, that makes sense.
Board Member Hunt asked whether she relied on the foreman, Juan, a great deal.
Ms. Hall said currently she does because she’s a major caregiver for her husband and has to be
home with him.
Board Member Hunt asked what she’s doing to ensure that Juan stays with the company,
considering he is such a high-risk asset.
Ms. Hall said he’s been there since Day One and he’s not leaving.
Mr. O’Neill said he’s well paid.
Board Member Hunt said, so she’s paying him well?
Ms. Hall said yes, he’s not going to leave, unless something happens to him. He loves my
husband. He loves us and has been there for us since 1992. Any other person would have been
gone by now, so that’s her insurance.
Mr. O’Neill said she has half a dozen other foremen. Others are qualified.
Board Member Hunt asked how many she has.
Ms. Hall said she has five, but it fluctuates. They had six and one left and came back. Eight is the
highest they’ve had. Juan communicates with her on a daily basis. He’s the front person. He’s
been there since 1992. We’re a small company, but we always have someone that’s qualified if
something should happen. Juan would communicate with her and he communicates with her on a
daily basis. He takes pictures, does runs and handles problems. He calls her and discusses it with
her husband and we let him know what’s OK to do. We know what he’s doing on a daily basis.
Board Member Hunt asked if there were others who had been there more than 10 years.
Ms. Hall said maybe Guillermo.
Board Member Hunt asked if he was highly paid.
Ms. Hall said of course.
Board Member Hunt said her concern is that because she’s split between her business and taking
care of her husband, she wanted to make sure she had the right people running the business and
the longevity to reduce that risk.
Ms. Hall said if they’re not doing their work, they let her know.
Board Member Hunt said a GC would and they should.
Mr. Parker said he’s the qualifier for his company, so does that make Willie the qualifying
officer for that license?
May 18, 2022
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Acting Chairman Jerulle said it’s more of a legal question, but he assumes that Willie is the
qualifying officer for the company. She’s just getting a license, not qualifying the company. That
would be a legal thing. She could remove Willie and put her name on, but if she does that, she’s
going to be restricted to some of the work if things continue to decline.
Mr. Parker asked if she should pursue that to become qualifying officer of this corporation.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said yes, but to get the license that she’s getting, it is more restrictive
than the one that Willie has. It would behoove her to keep Willie as the qualifier until she gets the
other license and then change over.
Board Member Joslin said she should act on getting the new license as fast as possible, to apply
for it immediately.
Board Member Allen said she should have Willie fill out the Verification of Construction
Experience for that second license now. There’s no reason to wait. Is it possible to pull that up so
she can see what it looks like? It’s important for him while he’s healthy to fill this out for that
next license.
Mr. Crotts said he can show her that and walk her through that process.
Board Member Joslin said he wanted to make one last comment before they vote. He’s known
all three of these gentlemen for years because he does a lot of commercial work. He wanted
everyone to know that before he voted.
Board Member Joslin made a motion to approve the Concrete Placing and Finishing
Contractor License. Mr. Board Member Allen seconded the motion. The motion passed
unanimously, 6-0.
Board Member Nolton told her to work on that second license.
Ms. Hall said she’d work on that tonight and apply for it. When she applies for the Concrete
Forming License, does she have to come back before the Board?
Board Member Nolton told her to have her husband fill out the Verification of Experience and it
would be up to Mr. Crotts.
Acting Chairman Jerulle congratulated her and said he didn’t think they’d had anybody in front
of the Board who had brought this much experience to testify, so we thank you.
F. Ryan M. Gobiel – Ison Corp dba Blu Aqua Pool Service – Swimming Pool/Spa Service and
Repair Contractor – Review of Experience
Chairman Lantz called Mr. Gobiel to the podium and he was sworn in.
Mr. Crotts reported that Mr. Gobiel submitted an application for the issuance of a Certificate of
Competency for Swimming Pool Service and Repair Contractor, a license that requires 24 months
of experience. As part of the staff review process, Mr. Gobiel submitted a Verification of
Construction Experience and the following information:
• Treviso at The Colony, a property manager that he listed as the Verification of
Experience. Mr. Gobiel has been cleaning pools for the HOA for approximately four years
and it was reported that he has replaced one pump.
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17
• The Castle Group, a property manager, not a contractor or a contracting company. Mr.
Gobiel has been cleaning the HOA’s pools for approximately four to five years and has
replaced two pumps.
• Seaglass at Bonita Bay. We attempted to contact the property manager and there was no
information available.
• Creative Construction & Design. Mr. Gobiel has been cleaning the qualifier’s personal
pool for approximately five years and has done one pump replacement.
It should be noted that Mr. Gobiel does not hold any license for any type of trade for swimming
pools, as far as cleaning and/or cleaning and repair. Based upon the information received, it is
staff’s opinion that Mr. Gobiel does not meet the experience requirement under Ordinance 2006-
46, Section 1.6.2.9, as it relates to the trade of Swimming Pool Cleaning and Repair. Mr. Gobiel
does not hold any type of license for any type of trade in Collier County or the State of Florida.
Mr. Gobiel is being referred to the Board under Section 2.5.2, Referral of the Application to the
Contractors’ Licensing Board for a Decision.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said it doesn’t appear that you have the experience, so if you
want to try to convince us …
Mr. Gobiel testified that he bought the business almost 10 years ago and it was his
understanding when he bought it that it was being qualified, which the owner confirmed. It’s on
the County with a CPC number for Blu Aqua pool service. Then shortly after she got the check,
she was out, but it’s still qualified.
He has the occupational business license he was told was needed, but as far as the experience
longevity, he’s been with these large properties, which shows he’s doing something right. He has
employed up to five people. Nowadays, it’s become harder and harder, especially to scale, but he
reduced it down to just himself and one other employee and they increased quality over quantity.
Board Member Joslin asked if he had five people. How many now?
Mr. Gobiel said it was just him and one other guy. We went from 300 something residentials
down to about 18 commercials, plus a few residentials. It’s more of a quality over quantity.
Board Member Joslin said you’re not licensed to do the work. Who is?
Mr. Gobiel said he his CPO said he was. Over the years, he was qualified under Denise
Wolfgang and it shows her number attached to the business.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if he was saying Denise Wolfgang was qualifying his business.
Mr. Gobiel said he purchased the business from her in a half-million dollar deal. Once he did and
she got the check, she was pretty much gone and he never heard from her again. So his experience
would have been through her. Through the years, almost 10 years, there’s nothing that he can’t do
in this business. He knows how to put in the plaster and the tile. He gets called in for problems by
developers and he shows them improper weather-proofing, improper bonding, and why their rails
are black.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked what is the name of your company, Ison?
May 18, 2022
18
Mr. Gobiel said it was Ison Corp, dba Blu Aqua.
Board Member Nolton asked if the company he bought was Blu Aqua.
Mr. Gobiel said he bought Blu Aqua. He worked for the County for nearly 15 years and then took
his retirement, so he created Ison Corp. and bought Blu Aqua through stock. His home was
attached to the loan, so he didn’t have a choice not to continue.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked Mr. Crotts if Blu Aqua was licensed.
Mr. Crotts said that license expired in 2012.
Mr. Gobiel said no, that’s hers. His is licensed.
Board Member Hunt said we’re not talking about that.
Attorney Kerins told him they weren’t referring to his business tax receipt.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said apparently, she removed her qualifier in 2012.
Mr. Gobiel said he’s almost 10 years into it and this is what he was told.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said that when you buy a business, you still have to have a qualifier.
You’ve been operating for 10 years without a qualifier.
Mr. Gobiel said if you read the State Statute, it doesn’t say you need to be a contractor to clean
pools.
Board Member Joslin said you’re doing more than cleaning pools. According to your testimony
and affidavits, you’re changing pumps and filters. You said you can do anything and you’ve done
everything for 10 years.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said the point we’re trying to make, and we can get onto the
experience aspect later, is that right now you’re operating a business without a license.
Mr. Crotts said that was correct.
Mr. Gobiel said he has a business license.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said we’re not talking about a Business License. We’re not the
Business Licensing Board, we’re the Contractors’ Licensing Board. We’re talking about a
Contractor’s License. Your business has been running for 10 years without a Contractor’s License
and you need a Contractor’s License to clean pools. You understand that?
Board Member Joslin saidto do anything with swimming pools, you need a Contractor’s
License.
Mr. Gobiel said that’s where the confusion lies.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said an occupational license is not a license, it’s a tax receipt. It says
you paid the tax on it. If you take a test, then you’re going to get what’s called a Contractor’s
License, a Pool and Spa Servicing License. The point is, if you’re taking the test, you should
know that you need a Contractor’s License and that the Business License has nothing to do with
the Contractor’s License.
Mr. Gobiel said he’s had less than a month and he’s trying to correct anything that has been done
wrong.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said he’s trying to explain that he needs a Contractor’s License and he
should have known that he needs a Contractor’s License. We’re not talking about a Business
License. So his company does not have a Contractor’s License?
Mr. Crotts confirmed that Blu Aqua is now operating without a Contractor’s License.
May 18, 2022
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Acting Chairman Jerulle said so he’s here to prove his experience under the service and repair
portion of that license.
Mr. Crotts said that was correct.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if this does not allow him to service pools.
Mr. Crotts said this allows him to service residential and commercial pools.
Board Member Nolton asked if he was here due to a citation.
Mr. Crotts said he was cited for working without a license. That brought it to light and then he
applied for that license.
Mr. Gobiel said the officer who cited him also didn’t understand why he was being cited.
Board Member Joslin pointed out that he got 80% on the pool test, but 44% on business law.
Mr. Gobiel said he didn’t have time to study thousands of pages. He said the State Statute says
you don’t need a license to clean and repair pools.
Mr. Crotts said the County requires a license to clean pools.
Board Member Hunt asked if this license was going away in July 2023.
Mr. Crotts said swimming pool cleaning and repair will not. Cleaning pools will.
Attorney Kerins said that’s because this is a State-certified specialty license. Therefore, we’re
not preempted and we can continue to issue them.
Mr. Crotts said basically, what the ordinance says is if you have a Cleaning Pool Service and
Repair License, you do not need a separate license for cleaning pools only.
Acting Chairman Jerulle noted that he’s been operating for 10 years without a license. Has he
had any complaints?
Mr. Crotts said there were none.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if he’d abated the fine.
Mr. Crotts said he had.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said it appears that he has the experience.
Mr. Crotts said that was correct. The only the only question staff had on his experience was the
repair side, with the scope of what’s allowed under repairs.
Board Member Nolton pointed out he has the experience for the other license that’s going away.
Board Member Joslin noted that he’s only changed three pumps in 10 years.
Mr. Gobiel said he’d probably done 1,000 pumps. Those were just the ones on his references. He
does know how to do that. He works on 30 horsepower pumps, not little baby pumps. These are
big pumps and he knows how to change them. He listed various phases. These are not single
phase. Ask me any questions you like. He knows about frequencies, variable-speed drives, what
gauge wire needs to go to what pump, the proper voltages, etc. If he can’t do the work, he refers
the property owner to an electrician. He knows how to spot things before he puts in something
that’s not going to work.
Acting Chairman Jerulle noted that he’s been working with HOAs for 10 years.
Mr. Gobiel said they’re major properties.
May 18, 2022
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Acting Chairman Jerulle asked Mr. Crotts for his recommendation.
Mr. Crotts said if the Board feels that the candidate has experience for the Swimming Pool
Service and Repair aspect, he asked that the license be issued with a 12-month probationary
period so that we can monitor any issues that may come up. At the end of 12 months, if there are
no complaints or issues, the probationary period would automatically go away.
Board Member Joslin asked him about his fan-flow rate.
Mr. Gobiel said they’re looking at 250,000-gallon pools with a flow-rate of about 850
GPM. That’s what we’re going to need to flow.
Board Member Joslin made a motion to approve the Swimming Pool Service and Repair
License with 12 months of probation, and if there are no issues, the probation would be
automatically lifted after 12 months. Board Member Hunt seconded the motion. The motion
passed unanimously, 6-0.
Board Member Joslin advised him to check with the State and other counties he works with to
ensure he has the proper licenses to work in those counties.
[A recess was taken from 10:27 to 10:36 am.]
9. OLD BUSINESS:
None
10. PUBLIC HEARINGS:
A. Contest Citation #11812 – Rigoberto Guidicelli (CEUL20220003651)
Acting Chairman Jerulle called Mr. Guidicelli to the podium and he was sworn in;
Investigator Broughton also was sworn in.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked why he didn’t sign the citation.
Mr. Guidicelli said he needed to read it, English wasn’t his first language, and he had no
explanation of what it was until he came to the hearing today. That information should have been
in the letter. That’s why he didn’t sign it.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said he should have called to ask about it when he received the letter.
Mr. Guidicelli then agreed to sign it.
Attorney Noell said it was signed, acceptable and entered into evidence.
Board Member Allen made a motion to open the public hearing. Board Member Nolton
seconded it. The motion passed unanimously, 6-0. The public hearing was opened.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked Mr. Guidicelli if he was contesting his citation for unlicensed
carpentry contractor.
Mr. Guidicelli said he was.
Investigator Broughton said he had a copy of the hearing preamble for Citation 11812.
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Board Member Allen made a motion to accept the preamble into evidence. Board Member
Joslin seconded it. The motion passed unanimously, 6-0.
Investigator Broughton presented his opening statement: Mr. Rigoberto Guidicelli, doing
business as himself, contracted and received payment for the installation of a storage room in the
parking garage at 9724 Gulf Shore Drive. A check of State and local licenses reveals that Mr.
Guidicelli was unlicensed for the trade of Carpentry Contractor. Mr. Guidicelli was issued
Citation 11812 for unlicensed carpentry.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked Mr. Guidicelli if he had something to say.
Mr. Guidicelli said it’s not true.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked what wasn’t true.
Mr. Guidicelli said Geraldo Ramirez was fined. He was giving Geraldo Ramirez a hand and was
at the tennis court to drop off panels to Geraldo Ramirez, who is building the shed. He was
helping Mr. Ramirez put up panels. He wasn’t working that day. He was helping a kid with a
kayak rack, which is on the photo on Page 5. While doing that, Investigator Broughton showed
up.
Mr. Ramirez has the contract with the association. He, himself, wasn’t doing any work at all that
day. He was just dropping off materials. He’s guilty of helping Mr. Ramirez. He did not know Mr.
Ramirez had a contract. He’s a landscaper he agreed to help. I did not get paid. I didn’t know he
was getting $7,200 from the association. There was no money involved. He did some work at my
house and I helped him there. I have all the evidence if you want to see it.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked Investigator Broughton to explain.
Investigator Broughton said he received a complaint from the Building Department about an
unpermitted storage room. He conducted a site visit on April 11, 2022, and observed Mr.
Guidicelli installing a storage room of wood framing and drywall on the lower level of the
parking garage. There was another worker there with him that he didn’t identify. Mr. Guidicelli
stated that he had a verbal agreement. It was a subcontracted job for Gerardo Ramirez. Mr.
Guidicelli stated that he was building the storage room for payment for approximately $500 worth
of landscaping that Mr. Ramirez provided at his primary residence.
He confirmed that Gerardo Ramirez, owner of P. Garcia Landscaping Inc., was in a direct contract
with the Villas of Vanderbilt Beach HOA and that he subcontracted the installation of the storage
room to Mr. Guidicelli. A check of state and local licenses revealed that Mr. Guidicelli was
unlicensed for the trade of Carpentry Contractor. Therefore, he was issued the citation for
unlicensed carpentry.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if the County is making the case that Mr. Guidicelli is a sub of a
subcontractor.
Investigator Broughton said that was correct. He was unable to contact Mr. Ramirez at the scene
and he later brought them to the Growth Management Department – Mr. Guidicelli and Mr. Crotts
to verify it. He obtained a copy of the contract from the HOA and confirmed with Mr. Ramirez
that he subcontracted it for landscaping at Mr. Guidicelli’s home. Mr. Guidicelli told me at the
scene that day that he received landscaping from Mr. Ramirez. He asked him how much he
May 18, 2022
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thought the landscaping was worth and he told me approximately $500.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if Mr. Ramirez also received a citation.
Investigator Broughton said he was issued a second citation for $2,000 for unlicensed carpentry.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if he’d paid that.
Investigator Broughton said he hadn’t.
Mr. Guidicelli said he did.
Investigator Broughton said he believed it wasn’t paid, but would have to check with Contractor
Licensing.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said so Mr. Ramirez contracted the work and subcontracted the work
to Mr. Guidicelli and that’s why he’s here, because he received a citation and contested it?
Investigator Broughton said that was correct. Mr. Ramirez was under contract with the HOA for
$7,200. He has a copy of that contract and he did confirm that he subcontracted it out for $500 of
landscaping. Mr. Guidicelli said he was bartering for landscaping and didn’t take direct payment.
Mr. Guidicelli said that’s the truth. There was no money involved. We’re talking about storage
for bikes under a tennis court on three walls. He assisted Mr. Ramirez with installing panels on
three walls. He did all the framing and everything else. I just assisted. Investigator Broughton told
me at the meeting that they never go after a subcontractor. He went after me for $1,000. He made
me sign the blank citation. I signed it and it was blank. It happened so fast and it did not have the
$1,000 fine checked off.
Board Member Allen asked if he built the frames.
Mr. Guidicelli said he didn’t. Gerardo Ramirez did. He assisted with the panels, Hardie Board.
We started putting it up and I assisted him and then when I was there that day, I was just dropping
off more panels.
Board Member Allen asked if he’d put in those frames.
Mr. Guidicelli said he did no framing, just Hardie Board.
Board Member Hunt asked if he had a contract.
Investigator Broughton said it was a verbal contract. Mr. Ramirez did $500 worth of work at
Mr. Guidicelli’s home. It was a verbal contract and he said he was helping Mr. Ramirez because
he wasn’t good with carpentry.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if he was putting up the panels in exchange for work done at his
home.
Board Member Allen said if he didn’t do work on your property, would you have been there that
day?
Mr. Guidicelli said no.
Board Member Nolton said this man acted as labor for him. I thought in the past we would have
Mr. Ramirez here only. He didn’t they’d have laborers fined also.
Mr. Crotts said the reason he’s here was we were told by the original carpenter that the
subcontractor hired him as a subcontractor to build, not to assist him, but to build.
Board Member Hunt said so we have nothing but his word on that?
Mr. Crotts said that was correct.
May 18, 2022
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Board Member Nolton asked if Mr. Ramirez said he’d hired him as a laborer, would we be here?
Mr. Crotts said he would not have been cited. He would not have been an employee because Mr.
Ramirez didn’t have a company to employ one. He said he did the work in return for $500 worth
of landscaping.
Board Member Hunt asked Mr. Guidicelli what he does jobwise and for hobbies, and does he do
this often?
Mr. Guidicelli said he’s retired from the phone company, where he worked as a service
technician and then as an engineer. Now he helps people. He took a retirement package. He
doesn’t do this work often.
Board Member Nolton asked how he knew Mr. Ramirez.
Mr. Guidicelli said he worked with him at the phone company. He opened a landscaping
company, which he licensed and it’s not active, and sold Mr. Ramirez his accounts 15 years ago.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if he did not put up the framing, who put up the framing?
Mr. Guidicelli said Mr. Ramirez did. The other person that day, a young kid, was working on the
kayak rack.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if he’d done any work on that structure.
Mr. Guidicelli said no.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said so you’re saying Mr. Ramirez hired you to put the panels up?
Mr. Guidicelli said we did the panels together and he would not do this work for less than $500.
It’s 13-by-15.
Board Member Allen asked if he had played any role in building the framing or the nail gun.
Mr. Guidicelli said he played no role in building the framing or the nail gun. He helped put in
panels because they were high.
Investigator Broughton said he saw Mr. Guidicelli working on the structure and they had tools
and the truck was inside the garage. They were working on that structure. He observed it from the
street when he pulled up. Mr. Guidicelli allowed him into the garage. He had his truck there with
tools. An old door had been taken off and a new one was put up. He didn’t observe that, but it was
just put up and the old door was put aside to be hauled away.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if this required a permit.
Investigator Broughton said a decision was made not to issue one.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said and if you did, it would have been another fine?
Investigator Broughton said it would have been another $1,000 fine.
Mr. Guidicelli maintained that if he was seen working there that day, where were the photos to
prove it? Wasn’t he honest and cooperative.
Investigator Broughton confirmed Mr. Guidicelli was very honest and cooperative that day.
Mr. Guidicelli said he was the go-between for several weeks with Mr. Ramirez and Mr. Crotts,
with Ms. Delgado, who translated. Mr. Ramirez’s English isn’t that good. He has a recording of
the meeting to prove what was said.
May 18, 2022
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Board Member Nolton said he was confused and asked if Mr. Ramirez was even onsite. Were
there one or two people.
Investigator Broughton said only a teenage boy helper was there with Mr. Guidicelli. He did not
issue the citation onsite but he gathered the facts and wanted to reach out to the HOA and Mr.
Ramirez. Mr. Guidicelli arranged a meeting with him at the Growth Management Department.
That was when he first spoke with Mr. Ramirez, who speaks very little English, so he brought
Supervisor Delgado in to translate and Mr. Crotts was there.
Mr. Guidicelli said that day he was not doing any work because it was his mother’s birthday.
She’s dead now but he doesn’t do any work on that day. He was only there to drop off materials.
The kid asked him to help him with wheels on the kayak rack. We weren’t doing any work and
that’s why Gerardo wasn’t onsite. If you asked the kid, he would confirm what he’s saying. He
didn’t understand why he was getting fined after cooperating and not being any part of the $7,200
worth of work. He has a recording of the meeting and hopes everyone here is telling the truth.
Board Member Joslin told him he did get paid. He didn’t get money, but he got reimbursed,
some type of payment. If he went to help a friend, he’d still be guilty because he’s helping
someone unlicensed.
Mr. Guidicelli said Investigator Broughton told him they would not go after him if they went
after the license holder.
Board Member Joslin said that unfortunately, your friend told them that you were a
subcontractor. He subcontracted out to you because that was his way of paying you back.
Mr. Guidicelli said he never said that and did not get compensation. He has a recording. He came
up with a value of $500.
Mr. Board Member Joslin said he’s not listening to any recordings.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said if he didn’t pay his landscaper $500 and in exchange for that, you
did work. To me, that’s subcontracted work.
Mr. Guidicelli asked, That’s subcontracted work?
Board Member Allen said yep.
Mr. Guidicelli said he wasn’t working for him, he was assisting him.
Board Member Nolton said if he’s out there doing the work by himself and he has a
subcontractor agreement. The fact that I don’t know because I only have the information in front
of me is if he was out there actually doing that work on his own or he was dropping off materials
and Mr. Ramirez was doing the work. He doesn’t have any proof either way.
Mr. Crotts said the only thing the County can regulate is based upon what the first person who
contracted with the HOA told the investigator, that he had subcontracted with the respondent to
do the work in return for $500 worth of landscaping.
Mr. Guidicelli reiterated that he’d recorded the meeting.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said he wasn’t going to listen to a recording of the meeting because he
didn’t know if it was doctored or not. That’s not proof. We weigh the testimony of both of you. If
he can’t dispute the testimony or provide evidence that Mr. Ramirez didn’t hire him to do this
work, they have to believe this. It doesn’t mean he didn’t say it at another time.
Mr. Guidicelli maintained that couldn’t have happened anywhere else because Mr. Ramirez
May 18, 2022
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doesn’t speak English.
[Supervisor Delgado was sworn in.]
Supervisor Delgado said she didn’t believe Mr. Ramirez used the word “subcontracted” because
he was speaking in Spanish, but he did involve Mr. Guidicelli to help him with the work due to
the landscaping he did for him.
Board Member Nolton said that was an important distinction, helping versus hiring.
Ms. Delgado said she couldn’t confirm exactly what he said that day.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if he indicated that he hired Mr. Guidicelli.
Supervisor Delgado said it was more than two weeks ago, she didn’t take notes and can’t
remember.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said he asked you to help him in exchange for the landscaping.
Mr. Guidicelli said that was right.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if it was the County’s testimony that he hired Mr. Guidicelli.
Investigator Broughton said that was correct. He posed questions, Ms. Delgado translated and
he, himself, did take notes at the meeting and those are in his case report.
Board Member Allen made a motion to close the hearing. Board Member Joslin seconded it.
The motion carried unanimously, 6-0. The hearing was closed.
Board Member Nolton said he didn’t know. He’d heard mixed testimony. If he were helping
him, he wouldn’t be fined. If he were subcontracted to do the work, then he would be fined.
Board Member Allen said we have opposing testimony. His testimony is he was there helping.
Our job is to weigh the evidence and make a decision.
Board Member Joslin said we have the testimony that Mr. Ramirez put up the lumber and
framed the room. Mr. Guidicelli said he did not touch any lumber, so I’m assuming Mr. Ramirez
must have put up the framing and they both went back to put up the Hardie Board.
Mr. Guidicelli testified there was no work being done that day. That’s why there were no photos.
Board Member Nolton asked if no work was being done that day, but in the pictures there is
framing and there is Hardie Board up already on the walls. So that was from a previous day?
Mr. Guidicelli said that was correct.
Board Member Joslin asked if that was done the previous day.
Mr. Guidicelli said that’s correct. Geraldo Ramirez did it. The photos show work that was
previously done the day before and it doesn’t show me working.
Board Member Hunt pointed out the hearing was closed.
Board Member Allen said he was making a motion to reject the fine. The County has the burden
to prove that he was subcontracting and there is not enough evidence there to make the
evidentiary burden. You were probably overstepping your authority in doing this, but the County
has the burden and in light of how we have treated laborers in the past, he’s making a motion to
reject the fine.
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Board Member Nolton seconded it.
Attorney Noell asked if that was a motion to dismiss the case.
Board Member Allen amended his motion.
Board Member Allen made a motion to dismiss the citation 11812 against Mr. Guidicelli. Board
Member Nolton seconded it. The motion passed 5-1; Acting Chairman Jerulle opposed.
B. Contest Citation #12489 – Kenneth J. Dittmer (CEL20220003164)
Acting Chairman Jerulle called Mr. Dittmer to the podium and he was sworn in; property
owners, Charles Gibson and Stanley Lieberfarb, and Investigator Governale also were
sworn in.
Board Member Allen made a motion to open the public hearing. Board Member Nolton
seconded it. The motion was carried unanimously, 6-0.
Investigator Governale asked to enter the signed and dated hearing preamble and packet into
evidence.
Board Member Nolton made a motion to accept the preamble and packet into evidence. Board
Member Allen seconded it. The motion was carried unanimously, 6-0.
Mr. Governale presented his opening statement: The respondent, Kenneth John Dittmer, doing
business as himself, contracted and received payment for installing drywall in the kitchen at 1375
Chesapeake Ave. in the City of Naples. A license inquiry revealed that Mr. Dittmer was not
licensed in Collier County or the state of Florida for any trade type. Mr. Dittmer was issued
Citation #12489 for unlicensed drywall contracting.
Mr. Dittmer said he did not do what he’s accused of.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said, so you did not hang any drywall?
Mr. Dittmer said no, he was putting studs in metal framing to rehang drywall with the property
owner, who was going to come along later. He and the owner of the property, his employer,
ripped out a kitchen cabinet. He was there doing work, as directed by his employer, putting up
studs between metal drywall, so when new drywall was hung in the kitchen area, on the cabinet
side, on a false wall, we would have something to be able to screw the drywall onto.
Investigator Governale said he had case facts to share. He received a complaint through the
public portal from a neighbor regarding unpermitted interior condo renovations possibly being
done by an unlicensed contractor at 1375 Chesapeake Ave. in the City of Naples. He conducted a
site visit and observed Mr. Dittmer through a wide-open front door inside the kitchen, crouched
down doing work. He asked him through the door what he was doing and he told me he was
putting in 2-by-4 wood backers to install new drywall.
Mr. Dittmer told me he was working for the property owner as a 1099 Subcontractor and doing
business for himself. He was verbally contracted at $20-an-hour to hang drywall in the kitchen.
He stated he had approximately 13 hours of work already in and anticipated having about 25
May 18, 2022
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hours total.
Via telephone from the scene, he spoke to Charles Gibson, the property owner, who confirmed
Mr. Dittmer was a 1099 employee and was being paid hourly to install drywall in the kitchen and
to clean up construction debris. He told me that he’d paid Mr. Dittmer about $500, so far, but did
not elaborate on the method of payment. An inquiry of the State and local licensure revealed that
Mr. Dittmer was not licensed to install drywall. He was issued Citation #12489 for unlicensed
drywall contracting.
Board Member Hunt asked if the project required a permit.
Investigator Governale said it did. However, that was with the property owner in the City of
Naples, not the trade Mr. Dittmer was doing.
Board Member Hunt asked if the property owner did get an owner-builder permit.
Investigator Governale said, no, it’s a commercial unit, a condo, so he needed a General
Contractor Permit.
Board Member Hunt asked if he needed a commercial permit but didn’t get one.
Investigator Governale said no. At the time he was there, there was no permit.
Mr. Lieberfarb testified that the first thing that we did when we contracted to buy this place was
communicate with the City of Naples, told them what we intended to do, and asked them if we
needed a permit. They wrote us back to say that based upon what we told them we were going to
do, they said that we did not need a permit, so we didn’t pull a permit. Otherwise, we would have
hired a general contractor and done it appropriately.
While we were ripping out the flooring, it became evident that we had to take the bottom kitchen
cabinets out to get the floor out, and also the backsplash was tiled on the wall. As we started
tearing stuff out – and we removed the cabinets with the intention of putting them right back
where they came from – we had some drywall issues that had to have some repairs. There are
pictures of the backsplash area, two 4-by-6-foot areas. That’s the knee wall where the bottom
cabinets were on one side. You can see up in the corner there on the other side, a patch of
drywall. All of that came off as we were removing the tile.
My son in law, Mr. Gibson, went and got some drywall and started to put it back up. Mr. Dittmer
did not put the drywall up. Mr. Gibson did. Mr. Dittmer was assisting him because he’s an
employee of our company. He’s provided numerous copies of paychecks. He’s been working for
us for approximately two years. He’s an hourly employee, even though we pay him as a 1099
employee because we don’t want a payroll. We only have one person working for us. If that’s
incorrect, that’s an IRS issue, not a licensing issue.
Regardless of what Mr. Dittmer told the investigator, he is an employee. He works for us
hourly. He works for us when we need him and he’s been working for us for several years, so he
doesn’t hold himself out to be a drywall contractor. He didn’t do the drywall. We got red-tagged
and we had to hire a general contractor. We hired an architect to do drawings, and the permit was
issued and it’s ready for pick up this morning. So, it’s not like we’re trying to get away with
something or not comply. We went to the City. He’s shown evidence of the communications with
the City.
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After the red tag was issued, Mr. Molé came out and told us why the dry walling had to get
permitted, because apparently it was on a firewall, and as soon as that came down, we should
have stopped. We did not know that. Mr. Dittmer was just doing what he was told.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said so when you asked the City to do work and they said the work did
not require a permit, was it for a smaller specific scope of work?
Mr. Lieberfarb said it was not.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said and then when you got into the remodeling you had to increase
that scope of work?
Mr. Lieberfarb said we didn’t change the scope of work. We were taking up a tile floor to
replace it. We were going to do countertops and painting. As we started pulling stuff out of the
bathrooms, a decision was made to upgrade the bathrooms. We went to a plumbing contractor. He
said you have to get a GC. As we’re in the process of doing all that, somebody called and filed a
complaint because we were jack-hammering up the floors and making noise and they didn’t like it
apparently, so they called the County. They came in and did an inspection. We got red tagged and
he issued the certificate, a license violation, so we’re just here telling you that we legitimately try
and operate our business and do things correctly.
We went to the City and asked first. We told them what we were doing and I don’t think the scope
of work changed until we went to the bathrooms, which is not any part of this hearing, and we’re
now going to have a permit issued in the next day or so.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if the fact that the County investigator testified that Mr. Dittmer
told him that he’s a 1099 sub is correct.
Mr. Lieberfarb said he’s paid and we issue him a 1099 at the end of the year. But he’s not a
subcontractor to us, he’s just an employee, as far as we’re concerned. Because we’re such a small
company, we didn’t want to have to run a payroll service or go through that process, so we pay
him a check, and his responsibility is to file his taxes.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said either he’s an employee or a sub. If he’s an employee, he gets
hourly wages or a salary, and if he’s a 1099, he’s a sub.
Mr. Lieberfarb said he’s an employee. He sent the County a copy of a statute that defines
independent contractor. There are six requirements. He doesn’t meet any of the six and four of the
six are required to be an independent contractor, so if the IRS came in to audit him, he would say
he’s an employee. Mr. Dittmer only does what we tell him to do when we tell him to do it.
Board Member Allen said the Statute he’s citing, the Worker’s Compensation Statute, has no
bearing on this.
Board Member Nolton asked Mr. Dittmer if he works for other people.
Mr. Dittmer said, No, sir. He had a handyman’s license, but let it expire because it was too much
of a hassle.
Investigator Governale said an employee is what it states in Construction Contracting in Florida
Statute 489.103 under the exemptions. For the purposes of this part, an employee is defined as a
person who receives compensation from and is under the supervision and control of an employer
May 18, 2022
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who regularly deducts FICA and withholding taxes and provides Workers Compensation, all as
prescribed by law.
Board Member Joslin said that was correct. Technically, the IRS has nothing to do with it. It’s
construction law.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said technically, the definition you gave us is for Workmen’s
Compensation. It’s not State Statute. He’s a subcontractor, per the Statute. The County is saying
he’s a subcontractor.
Mr. Lieberfarb said even if he’s a subcontractor, he didn’t do the work that he’s accused of.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said he’s not trying to argue. He’s just trying to get the facts to make
an informed decision.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said he is a subcontractor, whether you like it or not. By definition, he
is a subcontractor, correct?
Investigator Governale said he is under the definition of the Florida Statutes. Under the Collier
County Code of Ordinances, a Drywall Contractor requires 36 months of experience, with a
passing grade on an approved test and a passing grade on a business law test and means those who
are qualified to install gypsum-drywall products to wood and metal studs, wood and steel joists,
and metal runners and buildings of unlimited area and height. The scope of work shall include the
preparation of the surface over which the drywall product is to be applied, including the placing of
metal studs and runners and all necessary drywall preparation trim and shall include the
placement of fire-safing and firestopping materials as part of the overall drywall contract.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said, so a drywall subcontractor installs drywall. Who does framing?
Investigator Governale said that would be a carpenter or above.
Board Member Allen said the Statute or Ordinance you cited said preparation of the walls to
install drywall.
Investigator Governale said correct. The part Mr. Dittmer was doing was part of the drywall
definition.
Board Member Nolton asked if there were any fines to the owner or corporation that owned the
property for doing work without a permit.
Mr. Crotts said no, because a corporation owns the property. That would be automatically red-
tagged, as it was, and then the owner of the property would be required to get a BC or a GC to
pull the permits and to move forward with assisting with the work that needed to be done. We do
not issue citations for no permits to homeowners and/or corporations or businesses.
Mr. Lieberfarb said that was referred to the City. We met with the City, they told us what we did
wrong and told us what had to happen. We hired a contractor, we’ve applied for the permit and
we’ve been sitting dormant, red-tagged, for approximately six weeks. Nobody unlocked the door.
We’re waiting for permits to be issued. we’re going to go back to work, but we’ve now had to hire
a general contractor and had to pay an architect. We had to pay the permitting fees and there was
a penalty, as well.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said that’s what’s required here. You can’t just buy a unit and have
your employees improve it without permits or a license.
Mr. Lieberfarb said they specifically went to the City and asked if they needed a permit because
they had not owned a condo before. They’ve done single-family homes here, but never a condo.
May 18, 2022
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We’re not fighting the red tag. We understand we made a mistake when we were tearing out
things. We stepped over the line and we’ve been punished. But he didn’t think Mr. Dittmer also
should be punished.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said the point is, we’ve established that he’s a subcontractor because
he’s a 1099, per the Statute. And now the County has made a very compelling case that he is
prepping the wall to receive drywall, which means he’s doing drywall work.
[Board Member Allen asked Mr. Dittmer to identify what he was doing in the photos, which
showed he was installing drywall. Mr. Dittner confirmed he was installing studs in a metal
frame.]
Board Member Nolton asked for clarification.
Mr. Crotts said if he were a W2 employee, he would not have received a citation. The fact that
he was listed as a 1099, which is a subcontractor, and confirmed the work that he was doing,
metal framing the metal studs, which falls under drywall contractor, he would receive a citation
for not having the license for the trade as a 1099 employee.
Board Member Hunt asked if there was any proof that he had been employed for a significant
amount of time for 40-plus hours a week.
Mr. Lieberfarb said paychecks dating back to 2020 and 1099s.
Board Member Joslin said that’s where the problem is.
Investigator Governale asked if he could add something for clarification. Their foundation is not
a contractor. They do not have a qualifier. They have a business tax and it’s listed as
administrative services, so regardless of whether he’s a W2 employee or a 1099 employee, there’s
no qualifier attached to this entity.
Mr. Lieberfarb said we don’t claim to be a licensed contracting company and never have. We
hire contractors when we need them. We went to the City and asked them if we needed one and
they said “no.”
Board Member Allen said the distinction is if he was a W2, the fine would have been to the
company for unlicensed contracting because he’s a subcontractor to them.
Board Member Nolton said as further clarification, they wouldn’t have fined them. They would
have just stopped them and made them get a contractor’s permit. They wouldn’t have fined them
since they were the owners.
Mr. Crotts said that is correct.
Board Member Nolton said this directly relates to you were using him as a 1099, instead of as an
employee, so he was in violation and he’s been charged because of that situation. And you’re
right, you didn’t need a permit just for flooring and some painting, but for the work you did end
up doing, you absolutely needed a permit.
Board Member Joslin said he opened up a can of worms then and the work should have stopped.
Mr. Lieberfarb said the City said it has an exemption for drywall, and limit it to two sheets, so
it’s not clear. He does understand that when you break into the firewall, you do need a permit. We
didn’t intend to do that, but it happened. He does understand that they made a mistake.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if it was his personal residence.
Mr. Lieberfarb said it was his investment property; he had three and sold two. This is the first
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job they’ve done without a general contractor.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said you had the experience, knowing that at certain points you need a
GC. You shouldn’t have taken down the drywall.
Mr. Lieberfarb said it came down when they took the backsplash off. They didn’t intend to take
the drywall down. What we did was close to what we were able to do, but, unfortunately, it was
drywall. What we did was pretty close to what we were able to do, but unfortunately, it was a
firewall.
Acting Chairman Jerulle asked if you could remove a cabinet without a permit.
Investigator Governale said no, not in a condo. In the City of Naples, no.
Mr. Lieberfarb said that was not correct. If you install the same cabinets, it is allowed. Our
intention was to reinstall the same cabinets in the same place. He has documentation from the City
about that.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said if you were to ask the City today about removing a cabinet with a
sink, they would say you need one.
Board Member Allen said replacing is taking it off and putting back in. He told him he has a
creative interpretation.
Board Member Hunt said that paragraph would encompass new countertops and it would
require a permit.
Mr. Lieberfarb said he read the Statute and the City told him he did not need a permit for
replacement.
Board Member Hunt asked if he were an employee, would the County not have cited him? If he
was 1099 yes, employee, no?
Investigator Governale said that was correct. The County would have referred it to City of
Naples Code Enforcement.
Board Member Hunt asked where was the justification for citing him, given their convoluted
relationship?
Investigator Governale said he did not find it convoluted. Mr. Dittmer told him he was a
subcontractor. The property owner said he was a handyman doing odds-and-ends work.
Board Member Hunt asked if he’d been told Mr. Dittmer was a contractor working full-time for
the company.
Investigator Governale said no.
Mr. Lieberfarb said the County only asked how he was paid, a 1099. They’re already paying
thousands of dollars in expenses over this.
Investigator Governale said he did say he assisted in cabinetry, which requires a license, but I
did not give him a permit for that.
Mr. Dittmer said the demo was just the removal.
Board Member Nolton said he could see he’s worked for them since 2020. How many hours
does he work?
Mr. Dittmer said sometimes as many as 32 hours a week, sometimes 10 or 20. He doesn’t work a
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40-hour week.
Board Member Nolton asked if he’s half-time.
Mr. Dittmer said: Yes, sir.
Mr. Lieberfarb said they hired Mr. Dittmer for casual labor. He’s quite helpful.
Board Member Nolton said it’s as simple as he’s a 1099, not an employee. He was doing work
that required him to have a license. He works less than 50% of the time.
Mr. Lieberfarb said he begged to differ. But he understands. We view him as an employee and
he wears our work shirts. He doesn’t represent himself to be a independent contractor. He works
with my son-in-law. This is the first time we did any work without a general contractor. He
sweeps floors, cleans up, carries things, goes to Ace Hardware.
Board Member Allen made a motion to close the public hearing. Board Member Joslin
seconded it. The motion was carried unanimously, 6-0.
Board Member Allen said he’s clearly a contractor. He didn’t want to approve the fine and
punish Mr. Dittmer. It was a corporate decision to make him a subcontractor. Mr. Dittmer
wouldn’t have refused to be a W2. The rub for me is punishing someone who is innocent. He
believed the company wanted to avoid payroll expenses.
Board Member Nolton said he presented that well, but the company would have the ability to
pay his fine. They were the ones gaining for not paying employment tax or payroll.
Board Member Joslin said he’s not covered by Worker’s Compensation or any insurance, at all.
What if he got injured? He’s not covered by any insurance.
Board Member Nolton made a motion to uphold Citation #12489 and to fine Mr. Dittmer
$1,000. Second by Board Member Joslin. The motion was carried unanimously, 6-0.
[A recess was taken from 11:52 a.m. to 11:58]
C. 2022-04 – Kristo Miska dba Home & More Services Inc. (CEMIS20220001812)
Acting Chairman Jerulle called Mr. Miska to the podium and he was sworn in.
Acting Chairman Jerulle said he had to leave before the next case.
[Acting Chairman Jerulle left the meeting at 11:59 a.m.]
Mr. Crotts advised the Board to appoint a temporary chairman for the remainder of the meeting.
Board Member Allen made a motion to make Board Member Nolton the temporary chairman.
Board Member Hunt seconded it. The motion carried unanimously, 5-0.
[Board Member Nolton was made the temporary chairman at 12 p.m.]
Board Member Allen made a motion to open the public hearing. Board Member Hunt seconded
it. The motion carried unanimously, 5-0.
Investigator Governale asked to enter the signed and dated hearing preamble for Case #2022-04
and packet into evidence.
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Board Member Allen made a motion to accept the preamble into evidence. Second by Board
Member Joslin. The motion was carried unanimously, 5-0.
Mr. Governale presented his opening statement: The respondent, Kristo Miska, a Collier
County licensed Tile and Marble Floor Covering and Cabinet Installation Contractor with
issuance numbers 201600000536, 537 and 538 is the qualifier for and owner of Home & More
Services Inc. Mr. Miska contracted with the property owner for a master bathroom renovation at
4409 Prescott Lane in Naples, work that was outside the scope of his licenses and was without an
issued permit, when required. Mr. Miska is in violation of the Code of Laws and Ordinances of
Collier County, Florida, Section 22-2012, which states in pertinent part that is misconduct for a
holder of a Collier County Certificate of Competency to contract to do work outside the scope of
their competency, as listed on their competency card, and is defined in this Ordinance, or as
restricted by the Contractor Licensing Board and Section 22-20118, which states in pertinent part
that is misconduct by a holder of a Collier County Certificate of Competency to proceed on any
job without obtaining applicable permits or inspections from the City Building and Zoning
Division or the County Building Review and Permitting Department.
Temporary Chairman Nolton told Mr. Miska he could make an opening statement.
Mr. Miska said he’s saying this type of work requires a permit, correct? What did he do out of his
scope of work? He has a license to do tile. He doesn’t think he did anything out of whatever he’s
licensed for. That was the request from Day One, and that’s what the owner requested. The day
Investigator Governale showed up, he said a permit was required because it was in a flood-zone.
We didn’t change any framing. We ended up on final plumbing permit. What kind permit do we
need for this type of work? What was outside the scope of work that his license doesn’t cover? All
he did was change the tile on showers. There was no alteration, no plumbing or electric
work. That’s all. It’s very simple.
Investigator Governale said that on February 18, 2022, he was conducting field observations in
the Island Walk community and observed construction work occurring in the driveway at 4409
Prescott Lane. Upon investigation, it was discovered that Home & More Services Inc. had entered
into a contract with Della Burt-Bradley for a master-bathroom renovation. The contracted amount
was for $5,750. No down-payment was made, and the parties agreed that it would be paid in full
upon completion of the job.
On February 18, 2022, while on site, a review of Collier County Records revealed no building
permits were applied for regarding the bathroom renovations. That day, Chief Building Official
Jonathan Walsh reviewed the site photos of the bathroom renovations performed and determined
that a permit was required. A stop-work order was issued for commencing work without an issued
permit.
Previously, on May 19, 2021, the Collier County Contractors’ Licensing Board held a formal
disciplinary hearing in which the Board placed Kristo Miska’s three licenses on probation for one
year for working outside the scope of his license, causing financial harm, and commencing work
without an issued permit.
May 18, 2022
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Mr. Miska asked, financial harm of who?
Board Member Allen asked about Page 315, the estimate of the master bathroom renovation that
he provided his customer. Is that where you obtained your observation?
Investigator Governale said it was a brief estimate that the homeowner had in a text and copied
to provide to him from her computer.
Board Member Allen asked if this work could be done under his license.
Investigator Governale said no.
Board Member Allen asked which work cannot be done in under his current license.
Investigator Governale said discarding the wall tile, including the shower. That’s technically
considered waterproofing. Page 316 shows what he submitted when he filed for the permit, his
scope of work.
Board Member Allen asked which parts he could not do under his license.
Investigator Governale said any of the waterproofing, he could not do. Waterproofing and the
membrane must be installed by a plumber.
Board Member Allen asked if the waterproofing would be sealing all the shower joints with
tape.
Investigator Governale said that was correct.
During questioning by Board Member Allen, the following points were made:
• Mr. Miska didn’t agree with pages 315 and 316, but admitted he provided that to the County
to obtain a permit.
• He demo’d part of the wall and installed part of the half-inch board.
• He sealed and used Thinset.
• He didn’t do any waterproofing.
• The job was basically done when Investigator Governale arrived; he came at the last hour.
• He did install the cement board and sealed the joints, but contended it wasn’t waterproofing.
Investigator Governale said Chief Building Official Jonathan Walsh could answer these
questions.
[Chief Building Official Walsh was sworn in.]
Board Member Allen asked if installing cement board and sealing the shower joints with tape
and Thinset constitutes waterproofing.
Mr. Walsh said it becomes a part of a plumbing fixture. He is not a plumber. This is a plumbing
fixture, it’s a shower.
Board Member Allen asked if he were to do this correctly under his license, a plumber would
have to come in and install that waterproofing, install that cement board, tape it up, seal it up and
then under his license he can do work.
Mr. Walsh said he could act as a subcontractor to the plumber.
Board Member Nolton said it is a fixture, a shower. Otherwise we could put up a drywall board.
Mr. Walsh said you would have to have both the plumber and a drywall subcontractor to put up
May 18, 2022
35
the drywall aspects. Then the plumber would put up his portions and, more than likely, he would
hire somebody to do the tile work or whatever the finished material would be. The problem that
comes in is this is, at face value, a tile job. If this were on the floor, in the living room, on a wall
that was a decorative, no issues. But the fact that this is in a shower, it becomes part of the
plumbing fixture.
Temporary Chairman Nolton said if it were on a second floor, you would have to have a
shower pan, which is part of the plumbing fixture.
Mr. Miska asked, So that is what the plumber does? It’s not part of the plumbing?
Mr. Walsh said the drywall supports the plumbing fixture. Vinyl, acrylic, fiberglass, whatever the
finish, is a finished aspect. You would have to figure out who would have to do it.
Temporary Chairman Nolton asked if it were a cement board, such as DuraRock, would that
require a license?
Mr. Walsh said he didn’t know all the licensing aspects of that off the top of his head.
Mr. Miska said this is part of the tile work. When he passed the test, there was a specific question
about DuraRock.
Mr. Walsh said tile on itself, in a single family zone, outside a field zone, does not require a
permit. This house resides inside a flood zone.
Mr. Crotts recited the definition of a Tile and Marble Licensed Contractor and said it does not
mention DuraRock or Sheetrock.
Mr. Miska asked how you would install tile on the wall then? He was on probation for a year.
Last year, he was a victim of a homeowner. She goes after every contractor. You’re out of your
mind if you think he would not pull a permit if it were required. When he’s on probation for three
licenses, why would he do this? There was no plumbing involved.
Board Member Allen said in a situation where you clearly have operated outside the scope of
your license, your probation expires tomorrow and you’re here for the same exact thing.
Mr. Miska said who is going to research if this is a flood zone?
Board Member Allen said, “You.”
Temporary Chairman Nolton said all you did was repair DuraRock and put in new tile?
Mr. Miska said that was it. He didn’t know it was in a flood zone and I didn’t know a plumber
had to install DuraRock.
Board Member Joslin asked if there was a separate license for DuraRock. Does a plumber have
a license for DuraRock?
Board Member Meister said he’d never heard of a plumber using DuraRock, just a tile guy.
Temporary Chairman Nolton said this is a weird gray area he’s trying to understand.
Board Member Hunt asked whether he installed new tile.
Mr. Miska said he hadn’t. He went over the existing tile after making the surface rough.
Board Member Hunt asked if he’d just tiled over floor tile.
Mr. Miska said just on the floor tile, not on the wall.
May 18, 2022
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Temporary Chairman Nolton noted that it’s a cost-saving process.
Mr. Miska said if it’s solid, you don’t have to float it again. All he was asking when we had a
meeting was what kind of permit was required so he could tell the owner. She also was upset. He
does tile work in this community.
Investigator Governale said he applied for an alteration-remodel permit, which he cannot apply
for because he has a Tile and Marble License, so it was automatically rejected. It automatically
triggers a GC, BC or RC and it would also attach a plumber to it. Where it gets unusual is the
plumber or CGC could technically sub out him to do the work under his watch because it requires
those inspections. Also, he could have hired a plumber and taken a plumber permit out and it
would not trigger it to have a CGC, CBC or CRC.
Board Member Hunt asked: So this is an owner-builder permit because it’s a single-family
home?
Investigator Governale said that was correct.
Mr. Miska said that after they rejected him, he couldn’t pull a permit. They had to get a general
contractor. We ended up getting a final plumbing permit through a general contractor. If you
didn’t do anything previously on plumbing, how do you get a final plumbing permit?
Board Member Hunt said this wasn’t a repair, you were renovating their shower.
Mr. Walsh said that at face value, you don’t need a permit to take out tile and put a new faucet in.
This is not exempted because you’re not outside a flood zone. You’re in a flood zone. Even if
you’re replacing a kitchen sink or the faucet, it requires a permit. That’s how he has to enforce it.
That’s what the code states.
Temporary Chairman Nolton called was a FEMA 50% rule to capture more money.
Mr. Walsh agreed, saying that it’s written in the State Statute that local jurisdictions, by
ordinance or by local law, we do it by ordinance, can exempt certain aspects for single family
homes. We also have exemptions for commercial properties, condos, as well, outside of a flood
zone. About 90% of Collier County is in a flood zone.
Mr. Miska asked how many permits were pulled to replace a shower?
Mr. Walsh said, as I stated, if you’re going to ask him if a permit is needed, the answer is going
to be yes. He cannot control what he doesn’t know.
Temporary Chairman Nolton said his own home is not in a flood zone. If he weren’t changing
any plumbing out, he wouldn’t think of contacting a plumber. He’d talk to a tile contractor.
Mr. Walsh said support, waterproofing and everything in that shower is considered a plumbing
fixture.
Board Member Hunt noted that he was on probation for doing work outside the scope of his
license.
Mr. Miska admitted he was, but said it’s crazy, it makes no sense that he would work without a
permit now.
Board Member Hunt said she would hope he would have been significantly more diligent on
inquiring whether a permit it needed.
Mr. Miska noted that some Board members didn’t even know it was required.
Board Member Meister said the federal government is ridiculous.
May 18, 2022
37
Temporary Chairman Nolton asked if there had been any other complaints during the one-year
probation. Has he pulled any other permits?
Mr. Crotts said there was nothing that came to their office.
Mr. Miska said not personally and they’ve done about seven or eight permits. He has five guys
on the payroll, everything is legit. He pays liability insurance, Worker’s Compensation, payroll,
he has two to three trucks and pays for gasoline that has skyrocketed.
Board Member Allen made a motion to close the public hearing. Board Member Joslin
seconded it. The motion carried unanimously, 5-0.
Board Member Allen said he could see where he’s coming from, that some of these restrictions
are difficult to understand. But I would have hoped he would have been more diligent during his
probation period.
Temporary Chairman Nolton said he didn’t know what more diligent is. Replacing a shower
and tile, who is he going to call? And he’s going to ask the question and are they going to know if
it’s in a flood zone or not? He doesn’t know how you get that question answered right. He hasn’t
heard anything that makes him think that he did this intentionally, that he was trying to escape by
on something. It’s unfortunate, and it’s unfortunate you’re on probation and you’re here, but it’s
what we were dealt.
Board Member Allen said maybe the response is to extend his probation.
Board Member Meister said he learned a couple of new things here today that he never knew.
Board Member Joslin said he’d also never heard that before.
Temporary Chairman Nolton asked if the County had recommendations.
Mr. Crotts said that as stated before, Mr. Miska appeared before the Contractors’ Licensing
Board on May 19, 2021, on charges of contracting outside the scope of his license and
commencing work without a permit. Mr. Miska was found guilty of both charges and was fined
$1,000 on each count. His license was placed on probation for 12 months, which would be ending
on May 19, 2022. If a finding of guilty is found, because of the previous amount, staff would
recommend a $2,000 fine on each count, for a total of $4,000. The fines must be paid within 90
days. Failure to pay fines within 90 days would result in an automatic revocation of Mr. Miska’s
licenses and his licenses should be continued on probation for a period of 12 months ending on
May 18, 2023. There is no restitution that is being requested from the homeowner.
Board Member Joslin said it’s evident that he’s already pretty much testified that he’s guilty. He
was there and did the work. The permit is the issue.
Board Member Hunt said we can still find him guilty and ask our attorney to opine on the fine
and or discipline.
Temporary Chairman Nolton said we can ask Mr. Noell, but it’s up to us and we can find
anything from nothing, on up to probation.
Board Member Joslin made a motion to find him guilty. Board Member Allen seconded it. The
motion was carried unanimously, 5-0.
Temporary Chairman Nolton asked for direction from Attorney Noell.
May 18, 2022
38
Attorney Noell directed the Board to Page 297 of the packet for the disciplinary sanctions. At the
Board’s discretion, there are 10 penalties. He heard the question about just extending his
probation. The Board can do that, as well. It can’t exceed two years from today. The scope of
penalties are laid out in the packet.
Temporary Chairman Nolton said the County recommends a $2,000 fine on each of the counts
to be paid within 90 days, and 12 months of probation. Personally, he would lean more toward
just an extension of the probation.
Board Member Joslin agreed.
Board Member Allen said he couldn’t support a fine.
Board Member Allen made a motion to extend Mr. Miska’s probation for 12 more months, to
May 15, 2023. Board Member Joslin seconded it. The motion carried unanimously, 5-0.
Temporary Chairman Nolton said he didn’t have the findings to read. He asked Attorney Noell
for guidance on adjudicating the findings of fact.
Attorney Noell said he just needs to set forth that the Board had jurisdiction and the Board heard
evidence and found the respondent guilty of the two counts and orders 12 months of probation
from today’s date.
Temporary Chairman Nolton said this matter came before the Board today, being duly
communicated, and the respondent was made aware of the charges and he was here
unrepresented. The facts of the matter were provided to us. We have the authority and jurisdiction
over this matter.
We find the respondent, Kristo Miska, whose licenses are 201600000536, 537 and 538, guilty of
Count 1, working outside of the scope of his license, Section 22-201 (2) and Count 2, working
without a permit, Section 22-201 (18).
And we sanction you with just extending your probation for another 12 months from this day
forward, with no fine.
Mr. Miska said he appreciated it.
11. NEXT MEETING DATE: WEDNESDAY, June 15, 2022
Commissioners’ Chambers, Third Floor,
Administrative Building F, Collier County Government Center,
3299 E. Tamiami Trail, Naples, FL
Board Member Allen made a motion to adjourn. Board Member Joslin seconded the motion. The
motion carried unanimously, 5-0.
Mav 18- 2022
There being no further business for the good ofthe County, the meeting was adjourned at
12:37 p.m.
Collier County" Contractors' Licensing Board
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Kyle Lantx, Board Ch
These minutes were
on (t 'tS approved by the Ch
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or 0s amended
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