CLB Minutes 03/21/2007 R
March 21, 2007
TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE
CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD
Naples, Florida March 21, 2007
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractor Licensing
Board in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business
herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in
Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with
the following members present:
CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson
Sydney Blum (Absent)
Michael Boyd
Eric Guite' (Absent)
Glenn Herriman
Lee Horn
Richard Joslin
Ann Keller
William Lewis
ALSO PRESENT:
Patrick Neale, Attorney to the Board
Tom Palmer, Assistant County Attorney
Tom Bartoe, Licensing Compliance Officer
Michael Ossorio, Contractor Licensing Supervisor
Page 1
AGENDA
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD
DATE: WEDNESDAY - MARCH 21, 2007
TIME: 9:00 A.M.
W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING
(ADMINISTRATION BUILDING)
COURTHOUSE COMPLEX
ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE
PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM
RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND
EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED.
I. ROLL CALL
II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS:
III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
DATE: February 21 , 2007
V. DISCUSSION:
VI. NEW BUSINESS:
Paul A. Sellers - Review of experience for Non-Electrical Sign Contr. license.
VII. OLD BUSINESS:
VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS:
CLB CASE# 2007-04
Calvert N. Courtney II
D/B/A Brickstone Paver Designs, Inc.
CLB CASE#2007-05
Calvert N. Courtney II
D/B/A Brickstone Paver Designs, Inc.
IX. REPORTS:
X. NEXT MEETING DATE:
April 18, 2007
3301 E. Tamiami Trail
Naples, FL, 34104
March 21, 2007
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, good morning, everybody. I'd
like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County Contractor
Licensing Board.
Anyone who would like to appeal a decision of this board needs
to have a verbatim record -- it is being taken -- for your appeal.
Starting off -- first off, to my sweet, sweet lady in the camera
room, if that sign bothers you, please let me know. I'm worried about
that sign that you have up there. Yes, sir.
Starting off with roll call to my right.
MR. HERRIMAN: Glenn Herriman.
MR. LEWIS: William Lewis.
MS. KELLER: Ann Keller.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson.
MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin.
MR. BOYD: Michael Boyd.
MR. HORN: Lee Horn.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And with that, Mr. Bartoe, would you
have any amendments or changes to the agenda?
MR. BARTOE: Good morning, Mr. Chairman and board
members. For the record, I'm Tom Bartoe, Collier County Licensing
Compliance Officer.
Staff has one addition. I think we can put it under reports after
the public hearings. And it will be that we're going to bring up and
discuss proposed annual fees for the contractor licensing department.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right, sir.
MR. BARTOE: Other than that, staff has no other additions, no
deletions.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Do I hear a motion to approve
the agenda as amended?
MR. LEWIS: So moved, Lewis.
MR. JOSLIN: Second, Joslin.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
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March 21, 2007
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. LEWIS: Aye.
MS. KELLER: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Minutes. Read the minutes. You guys
obviously did not miss me, because Mr. Joslin did a wonderful job.
Thank you very much.
MR. JOSLIN: Well, thank you. We did miss you, though.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I was having -- had fun.
MR. JOSLIN: I'm glad you came back with all your legs.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Came back safe. If you ever go
looking for me, if! ever leave this country, Canada is where I'll go
live. Wonderful people; wonderful place to go.
I'll make a motion to approve the minutes.
MR. JOSLIN: Second, Joslin.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. LEWIS: Aye.
MS. KELLER: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussions -- so approved. None.
New business. Paul Sellers, are you here today?
MR. SELLERS: Yes, I am, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I see your signs. If you would,
step up here to the podium. I need for you to state your name and I'll
have this beautiful lady swear you in.
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March 21, 2007
MR. SELLERS: My name is Paul Sellers.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Sellers, the floor is yours. Tell us
what you want to do.
MR. SELLERS: I've been making signs for a number of years. I
have not worked for another sign company, and I have never been
making signs that have been in need of a permit beyond the signs that
a contractor has come to me in order to make the sign and they pulled
the permit and then they did the installation.
I would like to be able to go ahead and get licensed so I can pull
permits and do the installations as well.
I've been making -- like I say, I've been making signs for a
number of years and feel as though I have experience with that
through my own business. And now the aspect of the installation,
with doing non-electric signs, the installations will all be very
straightforward. There's not -- they're not very complex as far as the
nature of doing the installation.
I've contacted the International Sign Association to find out if
they had classes in order to get information on that. And it's even a
subject that the International Sign Association doesn't provide classes
for.
One of the other things that I've looked at is if I had worked for
other sign companies, there's a very good chance that you would not
necessarily do all of the work in the sign shop. So even if! had two
years or however many years experience with another sign shop, I
probably would not be as well rounded in the experience as I am now,
where right now I deal with everything from the customer walking in
the door, designing the sign, producing the sign. The only thing that's
left out is going to be now with your permission getting a permit to
build a sign that needs a permit and actually doing the installation.
Many times the installation is simply going to be post holes and
digging the holes and putting posts in, that type of thing, or wall
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March 21, 2007
mounts with Tapcon type installation. So I don't foresee them being
very intricate or very hard to do.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio, do you want to weigh in
on this?
MR. OSSORIO: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. For the record,
Michael Ossorio, Collier County Contractor Licensing.
Under the Ordinance 1.6.3.4(0). I'll just read you the caption.
Non-electrical sign contractor requires 24 months of experience and
passing grade of a two-hour test, which has been stricken out.
Business and law. And that means any person who is qualified to
erect, install, repair, alter, extend or change a non-electrical sign,
provided all work is performed in accordance with applicable Collier
County and city ordinances.
This category does not include the construction of freestanding
structural signs, which is real estate signs, something like that.
I really have no opinion on this. Mr. Sellers obviously did his
homework. Unfortunately under the code it tells us that ifhe does not
meet the requirements, he must petition the licensing board for a
review, and this is what we're here for today.
His affidavits, his construction experience is only related to real
estate signs, as you can see in my notes.
Verify construction experience at the time, and it says here
basically time and supervisor or administrator role should also be
described but may not be considered insufficient or demonstrate
required trade experience.
Unfortunately on the face of the application he didn't meet the
spirit of the code, so we referred it to you. And this is only dealing
with yard signs and real estate signs.
So it's up to the pleasure of the board. You can hear testimony to
the fact that -- answer questions, or if Mr. Sellers has any he could add
to it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody on the board have any
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March 21, 2007
questions?
MR. LEWIS: I would like to hear Mr. Boyd weigh in on this,
since this is his forte.
MR. BOYD: Well, Mike, you said that he cannot do structural
signs?
MR. OSSORIO: This category does not include the construction
of freestanding structural signs. No, he could not do -- and that's per
the ordinance as it says, no structural signs.
MR. BOYD: Okay. Obviously ifhe created some of the things
that he's got in his package and the sign we're looking at, I mean, I
think he's qualified to make signs. I think we're limiting him in what
he can do structure-wise, by the sounds of it. I don't really have a
problem with it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I make a motion it be approved.
MR. JOSLIN: You made a motion?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I made a motion.
MR. JOSLIN: Second, Joslin.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion?
MS. KELLER: Can I just ask one question? What test would he
have to take?
MR. OSSORIO: The test is only a business procedure test. This
is why it's very important, when you actually fill the application out,
no matter what it is, it could be a widget, that we look over his
application. Because the business test doesn't really mean that he
knows how to put the trade in or do the trades test.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I understood he'd already taken it,
though.
MR. OSSORIO: The business test.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah.
MR. OSSORIO: That's it, yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. NEALE: So the only discussion here is just experience,
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March 2], 2007
whether the board feels he has adequate experience.
MR. OSSORIO: Which the county has no objection of.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else?
MR. LEWIS: Question.
Sir, how many years did you tell us you've been in the sign
business?
MR. SELLERS: I've had a business in Marco Island since 1999.
And it's not been exclusively as a sign business. However, in that
business, as the time has gone by, I have been building signs. I've had
a C&C router for approximately four years now. So that's actually a
piece of equipment that most other sign companies do not have. So
even if we just count the experience that I've had since I've had that
piece of equipment, at least four years.
MR. LEWIS: On the -- have you in the past had any experience
of installing any signs?
MR. SELLERS: Outside of the normal channels, yes. Actually,
I lived in Chicago before I lived down here. Had a computer business.
One of my customers -- several of my customers had sign businesses,
I became friends with them. And then over the period of time I would
go out as a friend and would go and help them do installations to be
another pair of hands.
So I've gone and done installations in that respect, but never as a
paid employee.
MR. LEWIS: Stand by, I've got a side bar.
Mike, the license that we're talking about also includes any type
of commercial buildings, installation or any type of commercial
buildings that signs are allowed and permittable?
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct.
MR. LEWIS: Allows him to pull the permits for those, allows
him to scale eight, 10, 12-story buildings, if in fact that's the case that
it's a permittable use?
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct.
Page 7
March 2], 2007
MR. LEWIS: And install signs which would include preform,
metal box signs, anything that's non-electrical --
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct.
MR. LEWIS: -- of whatever size is allowed by the code?
MR. OSSORIO: Yes. We have an extensive -- the building
permit has an extensive review process. We have two full-time
individuals that do nothing but review signs.
And one of the things to be a contractor is know the process of
getting the engineering and actually knowing how to place it onto the
property, commercial property or residential property, whatever the
intent is.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can I make a comment? With the
sign ordinance we have in Collier County, we don't have signs like
that.
MR. LEWIS: I beg to differ, because I install signs like that. So
that's why I know so much about this.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That are non-electrical?
MR. LEWIS: That are non-electrical.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I haven't seen any.
MR. LEWIS: I even do electrical signs, but I hire an electrician
to do it.
But as a GC, I have to be licensed as a GC in order to install
signs. And I know from my experience the things that I've come
about and run up against, and I'll tell you what, when you're scaling a
12-story building, trying to put a sign up there with the wind blowing,
it becomes a difficult situation.
And you need to know what's going on. And that only comes
from experience. And if you're wanting to be a sign contractor in this
county, I suggest that you get the experience. I won't vote for it.
MR. BARTOE: I understand, Mr. Lewis, but anyone who has a
sign contractor license is allowed to install those signs that you do.
MR. LEWIS: Which means they have 24 months of experience.
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March 21, 2007
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The man has shown -- comments
here. The man has shown he has the experience. These are better
signs than I've seen the majority of around town. Especially this
package you gave us. You make a gorgeous sign.
MR. SELLERS: Thank you, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Your attention to detail is impeccable.
I'm not worried about a one-man shop going up on a -- scaling a
12-story building.
MR. LEWIS: I beg to differ again. Just to reiterate: Those signs
are beautiful, I agree, but they're made inside the shop by a machine.
And that does not put a man on a ladder outside of a building of which
he can put a letter up and the letter can fall down and hit one of the 1.
Q. public walking out of that building. I won't agree to it.
MS. KELLER: Mr. Seller, how many times have you watched
one of your signs being installed? Do you supervise it at all or do you
get involved in that?
MR. SELLERS: Honestly, I have not supervised it, because I
feel as though I'm not the supervisor of that job. And in the past I've
never produced a sign that would be as large or in a situation as Mr.
Lewis has described. I understand that that doesn't mean that
somewhere down the road that could never be.
In all honesty, why I'm before you is because I have numerous
customers that have come to me with things, I don't want to say as
trivial as, but as trivial as an awning. I cannot put lettering on an
awning, because I can't pull the permit and install letters to an awning,
vinyl letters. I may have to be on a six-foot stepladder, something like
that, but I'm not going to be very high up in the air.
I'm not actually looking to do big installation work. I would like
to be able to just service the customers that I have that come to me that
have a restaurant, that have a real estate company, that have an awning
out front and they want to freshen it up be able to do something along
those lines.
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March 21, 2007
I'm not looking to go after the big huge jobs. I'm content with
working mainly in Marco. And I understand in the Naples there are
probably bigger buildings that take things like Mr. Lewis is speaking
of. My business is in my backyard of Marco Island.
MR. JOSLIN: Just one question. With Mr. Lewis's comments,
do you suppose that we could put a limitation on this license to restrict
the license to a single level, one story, or ground level?
MR. LEWIS: You probably could. But my point is -- and just
consider this, if you would, there are probably 100 different sign
companies, and Mike can probably weigh in on this, that are in this
town that are unlicensed. By sign company, I mean the same type of
business as this gentleman does. They make great signs, they order
signs. A lot of them don't have the C&C machine, but they send them
out to other companies such as himself, have them made, bring them
back, present them to the customers and allow the customers to do
whatever they want. If the customers go out and install them on their
own and get caught, that's what we have the licensing and also sign
division for.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But ifit was such a big issue, which I
think you're guilty of exaggeration here, if it was such a big issue and
such a danger to the public, we would have more than 24 month
experiences of requirement. There would be a testing in their specific
trade. Let's don't blow this thing out of proportion.
MR. LEWIS: Les, I disagree. And I think you're wrong in my
blowing it out of proportion. Look in your codes. Electrical sign only
requires 24 months of experience. Solar heater installation requires 24
months of experience. A structural steel erection contractor only
requires 36 months. Those are just three that are right there next to
each other.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Maybe we need to change all the
codes.
MR. LEWIS: Maybe. But as it stands, this is the code.
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March 21, 2007
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have anything else?
I'm going to call for a vote. The vote is to approve it.
All those in favor?
MR. LEWIS: Do we have a motion?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have a motion and a second. Are
you ready to go?
MR. LEWIS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MS. KELLER: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
MR. LEWIS: Nay.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got it.
MR. SELLERS: Thank you, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The vote was 6-1.
MR. SELLERS: Thank you very much.
MR. OSSORIO: Good luck.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Nice job. Nice presentation.
MS. KELLER: Nice package.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I will say this, in 18 years on the
board you're the first one that ever typed their application. Yes.
MR. SELLERS: That surprises me, but thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, it shows me that you're very
detailed.
MR. JOSLIN: He's a sign maker.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He doesn't want to do it for free.
I've misplaced my agenda. Public hearings. Case No. 2007-04
and 05. Both are Calvert M. Courtney, II, d/b/a Brickstone Paver
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March 21, 2007
Designs, Incorporated.
Mr. Neale, is there any reason I can't hear both of these at the
same time?
MR. NEALE: None at all.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, before we get into this case -- and
sorry, Tom -- I just want to make sure we understand where his license
-- Courtney's license is at right now as today flies.
His license is suspended. The reason why his license is
suspended is due to the fact that he did not renew. We renew in
December. You have from September to December to renew with no
-- with a penalty.
After that January to December, your license is suspended, and
then January of the following year you are null and void. So right
now he does have -- he could as of today fill a credit report out, fill out
the first part of the application, and receive his license. So his license
is suspended. But we still have jurisdiction on it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did he fulfill all of the requirements
that we put on him from the previous cases?
MR. OSSORIO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, would you verify that? Or
can you?
MR. NEALE: Yeah. Because what the board had ordered was
that he was to pay restitution of $5,200 within 30 days after the
January meeting, pay a fine of $5,000, and legal and investigative
costs of $1 ,000.
He is currently -- ifhe did do that, he is currently operating under
probation where he's under the supervision of this board. Ifhe did not
do that, his license would have been revoked. So obviously he has
fulfilled those.
But he is operating under the supervision of this board on a
probationary basis right now.
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March 21, 2007
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Paid the fines as well?
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct, yes, he did.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are both of you going to present this,
Mr. Bartoe?
MR. BARTOE: What I would like to say and ask Mr. Palmer
and Mr. Neale is we've -- Mr. Wuhrer and I have discussed these two
cases with Mr. Courtney before the meeting, and I believe he is
willing to stipulate to these charges in these two cases, if that would
help speed matters along. And then if the board would accept that, I'm
sure Mr. Courtney would like to speak to the board before you render
any final outcome.
MR. NEALE: Just as a note, the board has done this in the past
where they've accepted a stipulation of responsibility on the part of the
contractor and really just heard arguments from both sides as to the
penalties to be imposed, so this would not be out of order in things
that this board has done in the past.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I have to read the order?
MR. NEALE: What you could do at this point is uphold the
whole order until you've heard the arguments on the penalties, and
then read the whole order at that point. Because essentially he's
already stipulated to the findings of fact and conclusions of law.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Calvert (sic), if you would come
up to this podium, state your name, I'd like to have you sworn in.
MR. COURTNEY: My name is Calvert Newton Courtney, II.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me do some housework here real
quick.
Could I get a motion that both of these packets be admitted into
evidence?
MR. JOSLIN: Make a motion both of these packets, No.
2007-04,2007-05, Collier County versus Calvin Courtney, be entered
into as Exhibit A and B.
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March 21, 2007
MR. LEWIS: Second, Lewis.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor?
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. LEWIS: Aye.
MS. KELLER: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Courtney, what's been stated by
Mr. Bartoe, is that your desire?
MR. COURTNEY: Yes, it is.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: In both of these counts, one is the
4.1.18.1, contractor fails to fulfill his contractual obligations to a
customer. Valid liens were recorded on the property. And the
contractor has abandoned the customer's job. And the percentage of
completion is less than the percentage of the total contract price.
That's one charge.
And I assume the other one, yeah, it's the same. Okay.
MR. COURTNEY: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're in agreement with that?
All right, Mr. Bartoe, he has so stipulated. Your suggestion was
at this point let Mr. Courtney have the floor?
MR. BARTOE: In this first case? Is that what you're referring
to?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I'm doing them both at the
same time.
MR. BARTOE: Okay. There is a slight bit of a difference
between the two charges. In Case No. 04, it's 4.1.81(B).
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, okay.
MR. BARTOE: And the contractor and the complainant, last
time I spoke with both, have agreed that Mr. Courtney owes the
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March 2], 2007
complainant $6,350 in that case.
MR. JOSLIN: This is only on 04?
MR. BARTOE: That's on 04.
And on Case No. 05, we have Section 4.1.8.1, both (A) and (B).
And (A) is valid liens. And we do have a valid lien in the amount of
$7,514.81.
And I believe Mr. Wuhrer can explain to you. I believe that the
complainant and Mr. Courtney have agreed to numbers. In that case
I'll let Mr. Wuhrer explain that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Wuhrer, the floor is yours.
(Speakers were duly sworn.)
MR. WUHRER: Morning, gentlemen. And ladies.
Mr. Ricot Dieujuste does have a lien that's been placed against
this property for the amount of$7,514.81.
At this particular interval, this is what we're looking to satisfy
and remove is this particular lien.
Do you want to get more in-depth on that?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No.
Basically he's stipulated to them, so I don't need to get in-depth at
all.
At this point I believe I just need to get Mr. Calvert.
Do you want to make a statement? You stipulated to the charges.
MR. COURTNEY: No, Your Honor -- or Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Explain to us what's going on.
MR. COURTNEY: In both of these cases the customer is correct
and I'm wrong. And I think you guys know from when we met last
month, it's not my intention to cause him any financial harm. I'm
sorry about the whole thing.
And I'm selling assets. And we're having problems selling
construction-related equipment in this market. We're down to where
we're taking 50 and 60 cents on the dollar. We're having a hard time
finding the buyers.
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March 21, 2007
And not only did I satisfy the requirements you put on me last
month, I even went beyond that with two more customers that you're
not even aware of. And I'm selling everything and paying the people.
I don't know what else to say. We're not doing any work. We're
working on the nursery harvesting trees and things.
So they're right and I'm wrong. I don't know how else to say it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You were here in what, November or
December?
MR. NEALE: January.
MR. COURTNEY: January.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, for the record, Michael Ossorio,
Collier County contractor licensing.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir.
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Courtney made a statement, and I agree
with most of that statement. He did provide us more money for other
clients, and he has been forthright. But he has been working with a
suspended license. He has had a couple of tickets since the board has
talked to him last.
MR. JOSLIN: Are these tickets in relation to jobs that were
started and not complete that he's trying to finish, or brand new jobs?
MR. OSSORIO: No, I believe they're probably jobs that he's
been trying to complete over the course of the four or five months.
MR. COURTNEY: One was a service job, and one was an
attempt to complete. One was a repair on a driveway that had gone
bad.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So in other words, what you're doing,
suspended license, can't pull permits, and he's out there doing other
jobs. And if I'm not mistaken, the service job was -- can you give me
details on what he's calling a service job?
MR. OSSORIO: I believe Mr. Courtney can probably elaborate,
but I know that one of our investigators did go out and observe him
putting some brick pavers down and issued him a citation for working
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March 21, 2007
with a suspended license.
MR. LEWIS: Was this ajob -- do we know if this was ajob that
he had already permitted or had done previously, prior to the
suspension?
MR. OSSORIO: I believe so.
MR. COURTNEY: I can elaborate on this. This was ajob done
a long time ago where the driveway dipped and where the traffic path
was. And it's in a gated community which would not have had a
permit for a driveway.
MR. LEWIS: Was this a paid service or was this something you
were doing under warranty?
MR. COURTNEY: This was free.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, recommendation of the county.
Do you have anything else, Mr. Courtney?
MR. COURTNEY: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. WUHRER: Once again, Mr. Chairman, I have some
recommendations, but -- and Mr. Ossorio and I discussed the
recommendations, so I'm going to defer to Mr. Ossorio.
MR. OSSORIO: Before we get to the recommendations, I would
like to hear -- I don't know how the board feels about it, I don't know
what the protocol is, but I feel since we did stipulate the findings of
fact about him being guilty of the charges, I believe that these
homeowners did take the time and effort to come out here to sit here
and to listen to the board deliberate. I think it's only fair to say before
we issue a finding of guilt or have these homeowners, if they wish to
communicate to a licensing board about their hardship or their issues, I
think that's something that we should -- we're obligated to do.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I agree with you. I don't have a
problem with that.
MR. OSSORIO: I mean, we're only talking a few minutes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why don't you call them up as --
Page 17
March 21, 2007
MR. BARTOE: Mrs. Mondy Isaac, would you come to that
podium, please. And this is in reference to Case No. 04.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would state your name and the
lady will swear you in.
MS. ISAAC: Mondy Isaac.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mondy Isaac.
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
MR. OSSORIO: Good morning, Ms. Isaac, how are you this
morning?
MS. ISAAC: Fine, thank you.
MR. OSSORIO: I hate to bother you, but I've just got a couple
of questions for you.
How did you ever -- how did you come across Mr. Courtney?
MS. ISAAC: I had a friend, it's like a father to us, and he was
building a house. I went to his house to help him choose a paint color,
and then I saw him working for him. And I talk to my friend, which is
right there, and he told me he was working for him and he give me his
number.
So when I got home I call him and we meet together at my house.
That was the first.
MR. OSSORIO: Ms. Isaac, pertaining to the -- you were having
a house built; am I correct?
MS. ISAAC: I'm sorry?
MR. OSSORIO: You were having this house built?
MS. ISAAC: Yes.
MR. OSSORIO: Has it been completed and C.O.'d?
MS. ISAAC: Yes.
MR. OSSORIO: Okay. Are you living in there right now?
MS. ISAAC: Yes.
MR. OSSORIO: Okay. Just as your opinion, this whole
experience with Mr. Courtney, have you lost any sleep or have you
agonized over this for months at a time?
Page 18
March 21, 2007
MS. ISAAC: I wish I have a tape recorder to all the phone calls I
make to him. Within two months I cry every day and I lose like 10
pounds because I couldn't close on my house. And due to the
construction -- I mean, the landscaping, because the landscaping
wasn't complete in the driveway -- not the driveway but the entrance
of the driveway and the entrance of the garage, they wouldn't close on
the house. The Collier County would not allow us to close.
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, what happens in -- especially when you
get down to the final inspections, landscaping and the brick pavers,
they won't let you have a C.O., not even a temporary C.O. without
first getting all those inspections.
So you're telling the licensing board that you're not very satisfied
with Mr. Courtney?
MS. ISAAC: No, I'm not, because the job is still not complete. I
have to borrow $6,000 to do part of the work that I pay him to do.
For example, the entrance of the driveway, the entrance of the
garage.
And he did come and put a little bit of grass so we can do the
closing, and the Collier County failed the inspection. They say we
need nine-foot grass to each side of the house, five foot more in the
front of the septic tank. And then the front of the driveway, we need
to put five foot grass in. I have to hire somebody that charge me
$1,500 just for the grass.
And for the water sprinkler, he did it and I have to hire somebody
to do it because the pipe that he used wasn't good and the thing to
spray the water, they were too small. And he used broken pipe. Like
he fix them to put the water for me so that I can do the closing. But it
wasn't good enough. The Collier County deny it.
MR. BARTOE: And have you reached an agreement with Mr.
Courtney that he owes you $6,350?
MS. ISAAC: Yes, he said he did -- he said he was going to pay
me like two months ago when I went to Mr. Michael here. And then
Page 19
March 21, 2007
after they find out I talk to him he said he will pay me. They called
me, they said next day for me to come to pick up the check. When I
went over there, he didn't show up.
MR. BARTOE: Staff has no other questions.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does the board have any questions?
MR. JOSLIN: The contract that was signed by you, ma'am, was
this contract a total contract to do the brick paver stones and the
landscaping and the sod under one contract --
MS. ISAAC: Yes.
MR. JOSLIN: -- to do the whole package?
MS. ISAAC: Let me explain something. When I call Mr.
Courtney, my house was under construction for about a year and a
half. I was paying two mortgages. I was desperate. I need somebody
that can do the landscaping right away.
So when I called him, he meet with me, which in the next day
after I give him $5,000, he was supposed to mail the contract to me
next day because I didn't have any fax machine or anything plugged
because all my stuff was packing to a new apartment that I move in.
And he never sent the contract to me.
But next day when I come to the house, there was like 15 people
working. I was so excited, I was so happy. I thought things was going
to go so fast. I even forgot to ask him for the contract.
Next day another 10 people come in, they were working like
crazy. But that's when the bank told me that they cannot give me--
the job was supposed to be done for $18,000, and I have 8,000 of my
own. The bank was supposed to give me 10,000.
And the bank called me, they said they cannot give me the
money until something has to be done. So I call Mr. Courtney, I said,
Mr. Courtney, I cannot go on all the jobs. You have to stop -- some of
the stuff has to be stopped, because I want to be able to come up with
all the money.
And he said, how much do you have? I said, I have $12,000 of
Page 20
March 21, 2007
my own, and the person that was building the house was supposed to
come up with 6,000 of his own. So that would be a total of$16,000.
So I tell them that -- I mean, 18,000.
So I tell him that I cannot use all the $12,000 I have, because I
have kids. I can only come up with 10,000. So that's when he say
okay, I understand, I have kids, too. I wouldn't want you to use all
your money. So what I can do is do the job for 15,000 instead of
18,000, but with one condition. And I said what was the condition?
He said because I take off like $5,000 for you, $3,000 off the job for
you, and I want the job to go fast, so if you can come up with another
$5,000 of your money, I will use your money to purchase all the
equipment that I need to do the job, like the paves and the pipes. And
I said okay.
So right away I sign him another $5,000. And I thought the job
was going to be done by Thanksgiving. And still haven't.
MR. JOSLIN: But you still never did get a contract to that effect
MS. ISAAC: He never did--
MR. JOSLIN: -- or any change or--
MS. ISAAC: No.
MR. JOSLIN: -- any agreements that you have worked out with
him?
MS. ISAAC: I'm sorry?
MR. JOSLIN: You have never gotten the contract with --
MS. ISAAC: I never got the contract. I call him every day. He
was supposed to bring it. Every day he come to the house, I said,
where's the contract? He say, oh, I'm sorry, I forgot, I'll have them
mail it to you.
And I called him, I left him so many messages. He never sent it
and not finish the job.
And then I didn't know what to do. I went to the police
department, I come to the court, they say they cannot help me.
Page 21
March 21, 2007
Then one day I went to sign the papers for this -- after I borrow
money to finish the -- to do what Collier County required me to do,
and then I went to them to prove that I did it so they can close on the
house. And I see the security guard and I was explain to him, this is
what happened to me, I don't know what to do about it. And he say,
you're in the right place. And then that's when I went to Mr. Mike.
MR. OSSORIO: Okay, Ms. Isaac, thank you very much.
MS. ISAAC: You're welcome.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, ma'am.
Michael, still your floor.
MR. WUHRER: Mr. Chairman, we -- on my case, which is the
2007-05, Mr. Ricot Dieujuste, although we are -- we have the
stipulation to take care of this existing lien, which is the primary
concern at this point of Mr. Dieujuste, there is a contract that was for a
total of 10,000 plus dollars. The portion -- when which he down paid
8,000 of that 10,000, which just about covers the sod that was
delivered and installed. And that's what we're trying to look at today.
The bill has never been paid to the sod company for the sod.
They have liened the house. And if there's additional information
that's required, I do have Mr. Dieujuste here, and he can explain
further.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead and call him up.
MR. WUHRER: Sure.
Mr. Dieujuste?
(Speaker was duly sworn.)
MR. DIEUmSTE: Good morning. My name is Ricot Dieujuste.
Mr. Courtney, I got a -- I built a house on a builder, and then I
had a contractor. I mean, it's owner/builder, but I got a contractor to
take care of everything for me. And the contractor find all the subs for
me, but he finally get Mr. Courtney. He give me a price for 10,500
some dollars to do landscape and the sod.
I give Mr. Courtney $8,000. And then after a while when I
Page 22
March 21, 2007
looked at the sod, the sod have all the weeds on it. And then I talk to
Mr. Courtney. He had to take care of the weed.
Also the sprinkler, before I make a deal with Mr. Courtney, I tell
him, I been done that before, people do sprinkle irrigation for me. The
irrigation messed up around the house. All around the house turn
yellow. And I brought Mr. Courtney to the house, walk with him and
show him what the sprinkler does to my house. And he agreed to fix
it.
And then we have a schedule, he's going to come in with the
guys to clean the weeds and take care of those sprinklers. He never
show up. I never hear anything from them.
Last thing I know, and I'm try to refinance my house because I
need money to finish, and I have lien $7,500 something, a lien on my
house.
MR. JOSLIN: Just one quick question. This yellow that you're
speaking about that's on your house from the sprinkler system; is that
what you're saying? You have a yellow cast on the house itself --
MR. DIEUmSTE: Yeah, yeah.
MR. JOSLIN: -- from the sprinkler?
MR. DIEUmSTE: The sprinkle -- the sprinkler is not done
proper. Actually, last three weeks I hire some guys fix them up for me
for $600. And then the sprinklers never been right.
MR. JOSLIN: Are you still getting yellow on your house?
MR. DIEUmSTE: Yeah, the yellow is still there.
MS. KELLER: The yellow is on the grass?
MR. DIEUmSTE: No, yellow around the house. On the wall.
MS. KELLER: Like a ring around --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's a mineral stain from the sprinklers
hitting the side of the house.
MR. JOSLIN: Which I'm sure that that sprinkler system has
nothing to do with the fact of him getting that stain on the house.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, it does. The sprinkler's on well
Page 23
March 21, 2007
water, and the sprinklers are hitting the side ofthe house and that's
causing the mineral stains.
MR. LEWIS: And they're not supposed to be hitting the side of
the house.
MR. JOSLIN: You can treat it, but you can't stop the wind from
blowing. And I've seen it happen before where the wind will cast --
when the sprinklers are on, it will blow it back on the house and you
will get a cast, yes. Bar none.
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Dieujuste, is that what's happening here? Is
this by an act of God that the wind is blowing the --
MR. DIEUmSTE: No, the sprinkler shot directly to the wall.
They fix now.
But the main thing is right now what I need; I need him to take
care of the lien on my house soon as possible.
MR. OSSORIO: So overall, would you say that you didn't have
a very good experience with Mr. Courtney?
MR. DIEUmSTE: No, not at all.
MS. KELLER: Mr. Ricot, I have a question for you about the
sod that was supplied by Gulf Coast Landscape. You said there were
problems with the sod, so the lien -- the product that the lien is against,
there was a problem with that sod, or--
MR. DIEUmSTE: The sod has weeds on it. But the first -- Mr.
Courtney told me that's his sod. I never had no -- if it's buying it.
Because when we met he said he's got plenty sod to do my house.
That's the sod he grows (sic).
But what I know, when they put the lien on my house, that's what
I notice, probably is not his sod. I don't know.
MR. WUHRER: Yes, the sod case is somewhat convoluted in
this respect, that I've contacted the company that supplied the sod.
And they supplied the sod to Mr. Courtney, according to them. And at
which time Mr. Courtney apparently put that sod down.
There has been some exchange of sod sent back, there's been
Page 24
March 21, 2007
some credits issued. It's a real convoluted affair, except that the
amount of sod that they calculate that when it gets to Mr. Dieujuste's
property was the $7,514 amount.
So it is kind of a little bit of a mess with credits that went back
and forth. But that's the amount that they determined was applicable
to that piece of property.
MR. JOSLIN: So the sod that really he purchased from the sod
company came in with weeds in it when it was installed? I mean,
these weeds probably just didn't grow overnight.
MR. WUHRER: To be quite frank, I don't know the answer to
that question.
MR. JOSLIN: I mean, it could be that maybe there was a
problem with possibly not paying a bill for sod if it came in faulty or it
was full of weeds.
MR. WUHRER: Anything is possible. I'm not sure.
MR. JOSLIN: I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that's
probably --
MS. KELLER: Does the supplier have a record of delivering that
sod to the home?
MR. WUHRER: I just have the payment amounts that were set
against that particular contract. And that contract included sod for that
property .
And there are other credits, as I say, that were issued back on
that, which the company agrees and I guess Mr. Courtney agrees,
there was items that went back and forth which I've seen sent Mr.
Courtney copies of that. Hopefully he can make heads or tails out of
it. I really couldn't.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me -- let's don't get off base here.
You called up witnesses to add some further stuff. What we're talking
about here is not instrumental, because Mr. Courtney has already
stipulated to all these charges.
MR. WUHRER: Correct.
Page 25
March 21, 2007
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So let's move on.
MR. WUHRER: Okay. That's all that I have.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have any other questions?
MR. OSSORIO: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have anyone else that you
want to bring up?
MR. OSSORIO: Not that I know of.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Courtney, do you have any
comments?
MR. COURTNEY: If you wanted any details concerning the
sod, I know what the situation is there, if that means anything.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is it pertinent? I mean, you stipulated
to the liens on the house in the charges.
MR. COURTNEY: It's an unusual situation with Mr. Dieujuste.
I didn't know that he would be here today. His attorney has started
civil process on this. So -- and I think all of that's going to unravel in
that deal.
The lien is not correct. If you look at the dates on the invoice,
there's three weeks. I had a signature account with Gulf Coast
Landscape. The material, when I did the calculations on that, went to
several different jobs.
There were three sources of sod on Mr. Dieujuste. We grew
some at our nursery out on Tenth Street Southeast, we got some from
Miami, and we got some from Gulf Coast Landscape. But the exact
percentages of that, the supervisor and I tried to sit down. And we're
not exactly sure how many square feet came from each place. But if
you look at the amount of the bill and you look at the bid, you can
make sense that we wouldn't charge $10,000 for a whole package and
spend 8,000 with one supplier.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you stipulated that there is
validity to the lien.
MR. COURTNEY: There is. Yes, sir.
Page 26
March 21, 2007
And what has happened there is that the -- where I had the
signature account has applied everything to Mr. Dieujuste's. Now, it
has to be satisfied one way or the other. So stipulating it doesn't
change the financial impact to me, so that's why I agreed to that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have anything to put
into this? Anyone have any questions of anybody?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then at this point I need to have a
motion for closing the public hearing.
MR. LEWIS: So moved, Lewis.
MR. JOSLIN: Second, Joslin.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And Mr. Neale, the floor's yours.
MR. NEALE: Right. Just since the board has already -- since
the respondent has stipulated to the charges, really, the board is just
considering sanctions at this point.
The sanctions that this board can impose in a situation such as
this are:
The revocation of the Certificate of Competency.
Suspension of the certificate.
Denial of issuance or renewal of the Certificate of Competency.
Probation of a reasonable length, not to exceed two years, during
which time the contractor's activity shall be under the supervision of
the board.
Number five, restitution.
Number six, a fine not to exceed $10,000 per incident.
Number seven, a public reprimand.
Number eight, a reexamination requirement.
Number nine, denial of the issuance of permits or requiring the
issuance of permits with conditions.
And ten, reasonable legal and investigative costs.
And imposing these sanctions there are five elements that the
board shall consider:
Page 27
March 21, 2007
One is the gravity of the violation.
Two is the impact to the violation.
Three are any actions taken by the violator to correct the
violation.
Four, any previous violations committed by the violator.
And five, any other evidence presented at this hearing by the
parties relevant as to the sanction that is appropriate to the case, given
its nature.
The board also, at the conclusion of this, shall issue a
recommended penalty to the State Construction Industry Licensing
Board. That penalty may include: A recommendation for no further
action; or a recommendation of suspension, revocation, or restriction
of the registration if it's a registered license; or a fine to be levied by
the state board.
That is it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio, what is the
recommendation of the county?
MR. OSSORIO: The reason why I brought that little piece up
about being delinquent or suspended or full and void, if we cancel his
license or you revoke his license, there's no difference between
revoking it or keeping it on suspension. So therefore he can be
suspended for up to December 31 st of this year. So there's really no
rush to judgment to null and void his license today.
I would like to see that Courtney get better luck or better skills in
managing and providing better customer service to the residents of
Collier County.
But with that said, I would like to see Courtney keep his license
on suspended status for a period of 10 days and let him decide if it's --
ifhe can pay back these clients here. And I'll read over the county's
proposal.
And then if he does do what he is supposed to do, let him apply
for a license and let him -- the board look at that and decide on its
Page 28
March 21, 2007
merits.
I don't want to have Courtney come back in, in 10 days to our
office and pay these two individuals off and then us issue him a
license. Because if that happens, I think that would be somewhat of a
trag -- you know, something that we shouldn't do.
So on Case No. 2007-05, an order to pay $7,514.18 within 10
days. $1,000 for investigative costs.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give me those numbers again. This is
04?
MR. OSSORIO: This is 2007-05. Is $7,514.18--
MR. BARTOE: 81 cents.
MR. OSSORIO: Oh, 81 cents.
To be paid in 10 days. $1,000 for investigative costs.
2007-04, pay $6,350. $1,000 for investigative costs.
Hold on his license for 10 days. And after 10 days, if Mr.
Courtney decides not to pay the two cases off, his license is null and
void.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I have two questions for you.
One, we're dealing with two different licenses, are we not? Isn't one
of them landscaping and one of them pavers?
MR. BARTOE: Best of my knowledge he has no landscaping
license.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then how's he doing contracts for
landscaping and sprinkler systems?
MR. OSSORIO: Exactly right, Mr. Chairman.
MR. JOSLIN: And sprinklers.
MR. OSSORIO: This is exactly why when he fills out his -- ifhe
does make restitution of these two cases, ifhe does fill out the
application to petition the board for next month to reinstate his license,
at that time you and I and everyone on the board will give him a
lecture of what he is allowed to do, if we grant him a license in the
first place.
Page 29
March 21, 2007
But obviously Mr. Courtney doesn't understand the difference
between what a brick paving company can do and what an irrigation
contractor can do. But that's not here to be decided today.
MR. NEALE: I'd like to bring up one point to the board.
Regardless -- unless the board revokes his probation or amends his
probation, Mr. Courtney is currently operating on a probationary
status for the next year, a year from January 21st.
MS. KELLER: Which license does he have, a paver license?
MR. OSSORIO: He has a brick paving license, yes. And it's
suspended. He did not renew in September of'06.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio, humor me a little bit.
What does the county want us to do? Because I don't want to see Mr.
Courtney again. I've seen him twice already, and that's --
MR. BARTOE: I believe there's other pending cases.
MR. OSSORIO: Yes, there are other cases. You could probably
look in the audience and see someone out there. But there are pending
cases. And we take every single complaint there is towards Courtney.
And we've advised Courtney about all of the other cases, and he is
actively trying to solve those cases, verbally to me, anyway.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. OSSORIO: It's a tough choice. You're absolutely right.
When to say enough's enough, and when to say you know what, these
two homeowners that spoke to you today want to get their money,
they've been impacted. Obviously they're working class individuals.
They had an owner/builder house and they relied on Courtney to do
their work for them. And we need to get their money back. How do
we do that? We do it carefully.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, but what's going to happen is--
and believe me, I would love nothing more than to get your money
back. But your money is going to be taken away from someone else,
and they're going to be next in line, and that's the problem I have with
this.
Page 30
March 21, 2007
Really, at this point you just get to listen. Because what you're
basically doing, we have closed public hearing, so you're essentially
sitting there listening to deliberations, okay?
MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, there's no difference between if
we take -- and trust me, I'm not being argumentative or being a pro
Courtney at all, that's for sure. But there is no difference between a
suspended license -- he is not welcome to work -- or a null and void
license. Being suspended just gives him the opportunity to sit down
and reflect and say well, okay, I have 10 days. Do I really want to do
this business? And if so, then I need to do this. Versus if we null and
void it then he has -- the option is off the table and his hands are
thrown up and says basically I won't pay it or I will pay it and then
we'll go to the county attorney with that, and we'll prosecute as much
as we can for these homeowners.
But Courtney has stressed to me in the past that he wants to do
business. He's showed up at these meetings and he's showed up at our
office. And obviously he said some things that are not true and
correct, of course, but how do we facilitate that? I don't know.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's a point well taken. I didn't want to
let the lion out to start with. Now that we've let the lion out, it's
almost like I'm trapped into letting it go a little further.
What's his name, Mr. Mantuba (sic) who was in the same hearing
that day, remember we did this with two? But no one can find him
anymore.
MR. OSSORIO: Well, he's still around. And I've tried to
communicate with him. And I don't want to get off on a tangent --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, he's done.
MR. OSSORIO: But he's done.
But obviously he had the same rope to hang himself as Mr.
Courtney did. Mr. Courtney took care of what he was supposed to do.
With that said, there are a lot of issues still pending. And Mr.
Courtney is willing to work through it. And if it wasn't for bad luck,
Page 3 1
March 21, 2007
Mr. Courtney, he wouldn't have any luck. I don't know. He needs to
sit down and reflect on his business.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What's the pleasure of the board?
MR. JOSLIN: One last question. With the -- by the ideas that
you're giving the board to try to satisfy what you're looking to have
done to Mr. Courtney, is 10 days going to be a long enough period of
time for him to basically come up with close to $16,000, 15,000 and
something, in that amount of time frame without his license being
revoked and we're back in the same boat again as we take today? Is
the time period going to be long enough for this to happen?
MR. OSSORIO: Well, it's not the county's problem, it's his
problem. He took the money. He told these homeowners back in--
two months ago that he was going to have it. So he's told me that he
can get it within 10 days before. So, you know, 10 days is 10 days.
He needs to reflect, do some, you know, searching to see ifhe
wants to continue on with his business. Because this board will take
his license away and we will forward it to the state attorney's office
for issues as well.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Either one of the attorneys want to
weigh in before we move?
MR. NEALE: The board knows what penalties can be imposed.
And, you know, as I said before, he is currently operating under a
probationary status and will be such until January 17th, unless you
modify that probation at this point.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: County okay with that?
MR. PALMER: I don't have any problem with that. One of the
things that strikes me, I know it's not a complaint today, but if!
understood in this issue of two licenses, in regard to landscaping and
sprinkler system, everything he's doing is without a license to do that,
those activities.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Urn-hum.
MR. PALMER: That hasn't been addressed. We're talking today
Page 32
March 21, 2007
about paying $7,514.81. I would like to see that the order say that he
must remove that lien. Not pay money, but see to it that that lien is
removed on his initiative. The landowner should not have to do
anything to remove this lien. That should be the obligation of this
contractor.
MR. NEALE: I would concur with Mr. Palmer's
recommendation on that. Because those of you that are contractors
know the agony sometimes it is to get a lien removed.
MR. OSSORIO: Well, one of the things, Mr. Courtney, ifhe
does come up with the money, he would have to provide the county
with a notice of lien release, and we would verify that, obviously. Mr.
Palmer knows that.
MR. PALMER: I agree. That's a little different than what was
stipulated to earlier. It was just saying pay the money. Pay the money
does not necessarily get the lien removed.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which case had the lien?
MR. PALMER: 04.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 04 -- or 05.
MR. PALMER: 05, sorry.
MR. JOSLIN: 05 has the lien and 04 has just money that's due.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Right.
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct.
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, if! can ask a question--
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Fire away.
MR. LEWIS: -- oflegal?
Is there any way that we can see for the homeowners at this point
to get them some restitution above and beyond what has been asked
for? In other words, of what the lien value and the other things.
MR. NEALE: The board is empowered to order restitution in
whatever amount it feels appropriate and for which there has been
evidence presented at this hearing. So if the board feels --
MR. LEWIS: So being subjective, because no evidence was
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March 21, 2007
truly presented as to the initial loss. Thank God. In 05 it was
presented. The gentleman said that he had spent an additional $600
for sprinkler repair. That's definite that we can do.
MR. NEALE: That's testimony under oath which the board can
consider.
MR. LEWIS: That's basically it, just testimony under oath.
MR. NEALE: But that is -- the board can testify -- can consider
that.
MR. LEWIS: Okay, thank you.
And to the board then, I would request that they consider in case
05 that they would add the additional $600 in restitution to the
homeowner for those repairs.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Well, speaking to the board, I
kind of -- I guess I agree with the county, he doesn't have a license
now because it's under suspension. And this is all we can do to
hopefully get these people's money back.
I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy whatsoever for Mr. Courtney.
Times can be tough, but making people go through months of
unreturned phone calls and not meeting. I mean, that's intolerable.
There's no excuse for that, even if you're having a hard time.
So I'm kind of leaning towards just going with what our director
of contractor licensing recommended. How do you guys feel?
MR. JOSLIN: I agree.
MR. LEWIS: As long as we can add that additional 600 to the
one that we have testimony against.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: At least.
MR. LEWIS: I'd love to add more, but like the attorney has said,
you know, without actually testimony or evidence stating that there
was additional -- we know in our hearts that just the burden itself is
worth money. But unfortunately no testimony was given.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Again, I'd just like to state for anyone
who might be watching, don't give more than 10 percent deposit to
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March 21, 2007
contractors unless they're starting the work within 60 days. It's in
violation of Florida statutes.
Can't say that enough times.
MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Neale, could you advise us on the
terminology that we need to do to amend the original order for the
probation or the suspension of license?
MR. NEALE: All that the board would have to do is refer back
to that original order on Case 2007-01 and amend probation to either
extend it, eliminate it, modify it, however the board wants to approach
that.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anybody feel like taking this
motion on? You're going to do two cases at one time.
MR. NEALE: And if it's okay with the board, the pleasure of the
board, I will issue one order combining the two cases.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir.
Who wants it? I got it, if you want me to do it.
Okay, I move that Mr. Calvert -- in -- I won't mention the
people's names, but in Case Number--
MS. KELLER: Mr. Courtney.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Courtney. I'm sorry, Calvert
Courtney.
That in Case No. 2007-05 that he pay to the homeowners the
amount owed of$6,350 --
MR. JOSLIN: No.
MR. NEALE: That's 04.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have I got them backwards?
MR. NEALE: Yeah, that's 04.
MS. KELLER: That's the notice of lien.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm not doing the lien.
MR. NEALE: Right, so that's 04.
MR. JOSLIN: 05 is the lien.
MR. NEALE: 04 is the non-lien.
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March 21, 2007
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is the 6,350 is that 04 or 05?
MR. NEALE: That's '04.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, that's where I'm at.
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, if! could help you out.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I said 04. Let me go ahead. I've got to
redeem myself at this point.
I said 04, did I not?
MR. LEWIS: You did not.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I said OS?
MR. LEWIS: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm sorry, I'm not reading my own
writing.
Okay, 2007-04. That Mr. Courtney reimburse the homeowner
$6,350 for the amount of the contract that he still owes them. That he
pays the county $1,000.
In Case No. 2007-05, that he reimburse the amount of$7,514.81
and cause to effect the lien to be removed from the property. That he
pay $1,000 to the county for investigative costs.
And also added that to $7,514.81 an additional $600 to go to the
homeowner for sprinkler repairs that he had to effect it himself.
Both cases, that his probation, which I'll refer back to Case No.
2007-01, be extended to December 31st, 2007.
MR. NEALE: It was already through January of'08.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: January 1 of'08?
MR. NEALE: January 17 of '08 was the current probation.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Ossorio said December
31.
MR. NEALE: That's the --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you not, Mr. Ossorio?
MR. NEALE: That's the current suspension of his license.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay.
MR. NEALE: The probation ordered by this board at the
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March 21, 2007
January meeting ran from January 17 of'07 to January 17 of'08.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, the suspension remain the same
and the probation be extended for one year from this date, which
would add to -- make it one year from today.
No recommendation of further action to the state. All of these
must -- all of these orders of the board must happen within 10 days or
else the license held by Mr. Courtney is automatically revoked.
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody want to add, change?
MR. JOSLIN: I'd like to see a fine imposed.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We did on both cases, $1,000 each,
investigative costs --
MR. NEALE: Those were only investigative costs. The board
has the ability to impose a fine of up to $10,000 --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We can discuss that.
MR. JOSLIN: I'd like to see $1,500 in each case.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to see the $1,500 in each case
or any fine we impose go to homeowners.
MR. JOSLIN: Yes, to the homeowners.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: County doesn't need the money. But
if we do it as a fine, it will go to the county. You have to do it as
restitution if you want it to go to the homeowners.
MR. JOSLIN: Restitution. Well, the first $600 is going to the
homeowners.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's right.
MR. JOSLIN: So just add the numbers to it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's see ifI'll get a second without it.
MR. NEALE: One point just that I'd like to make to the board is
that in the motion you addressed reimbursing the money to the
homeowner and causing the lien to be removed. That may be
mutually exclusive. Because the money has to go to the lien or to be
able to get the lien removed, so --
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March 21, 2007
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio,is the only thing
involved in that $7,514 the lien?
MR. OSSORIO: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let me modify that on Case
No. 2007-05, that the lien which is represented in a somewhat
disputed $7,514.81 be removed by Mr. Courtney within the 10-day
period. And if that's in disagreement or in argument, it comes up
lesser money, that's not of our concern.
MR. OSSORIO: Exactly right.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The $600 still applies to the
homeowner.
Thank you, Mr. Neale. Good point.
And that responsibility is totally on Mr. Courtney.
Anybody else?
MR. JOSLIN: And the restitution for $1,500.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm not going to do it.
MR. PALMER: The board does not have the power to order
restitution unless it's to reimburse for out-of-pocket money. This is
not a court of law and you don't have the power to give damages for
pain and suffering and delay and that sort of thing. So restitution has
to be actually reimbursement of money proven to be spent in relation
to the contract.
MR. LEWIS: Thank you, sir. And on that, Lewis will second
the motion.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. We've got a motion and a
second, if you understand the motion. Discussion?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You just don't want to talk because
your jaw hurts. Weare so thrilled to have Ann Keller back. We
missed her. She's gone through some really rough health issues.
Okay, call for a vote. All those in favor?
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
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March 21, 2007
MR. LEWIS: Aye.
MS. KELLER: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It does pass. Little homework here --
by a vote of7-0.
Board of County Commissioners, Collier County, Florida is the
petitioner, versus Calvert N. Courtney II, d/b/a Brickstone Paver
Designs, Incorporated. Case Nos. 2007-04 and 2007-05. License No.
29639.
This cause came on for public hearing before the Contractor
Licensing Board on March 21 st for consideration of administrative
complaint filed against Calvert N. Courtney, II. Service of the
complaint was made by certified mail and personal delivery in
accordance with Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105, as amended.
The board, having heard the testimony under oath received
evidence and heard arguments respective to all appropriate matters
thereupon issues its findings of fact, conclusion oflaw, order of the
board as follows.
Findings of fact: Number one, that Calvert N. Courtney, II is
holder of record of certificate of competency No. 29639.
Number two: That the Board of Collier County Commissioners
of Collier County, Florida is the complainant in this matter.
That the board has jurisdiction of the person of the respondent.
And that Calvert N. Courtney, II was present at the public hearing and
not represented by counsel.
Number four: All notices required by Collier County Ordinance
No. 90-105 as amended have been properly issued.
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March 21, 2007
And number five: The allegations of fact as set forth in the
administrative complaints are approved and incorporated herein by
reference of findings of fact.
Conclusion of law: The conclusion of law alleged and set forth
in the administrative complaints are approved and adopted and
incorporated herein. I don't really have to read those, do I, Mr. Neale?
MR. NEALE: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Redundant.
Order of the board: Based upon the foregoing findings of fact
and conclusion oflaw, pursuant to the authority granted in Chapter
489, Florida Statutes, and Collier County Ordinance 90-105, as
amended, by a vote of seven in favor and zero opposed, it is hereby
ordered that the following disciplinary sanctions and related order are
hereby imposed upon the holder of contractor Certificate of
Competency No. 29639.
And I'll let you insert was what the motion was at that point,
instead of reading it again. Would that be okay?
MR. NEALE: Yeah.
MS. KELLER: I just have one comment.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes.
MS. KELLER: Ten days is a Saturday. Do you want to move it
to 12 and have it a Monday?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't most courts, when they say 10
days, that's 10 working days?
MR. PALMER: No.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Or is it 10 calendar days?
MR. NEALE: It's 10 calendar days unless so stipulated.
MR. LEWIS: And if it falls on a non-business day or a holiday,
it moves to the next business day.
MR. NEALE: Right.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So it will automatically take care of
itself.
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March 21, 2007
MR. NEALE: It would automatically roll to that -- the other
thing that would -- it would be appropriate to have in the recitals from
the board is an affirmation that Mr. Courtney did stipulate to the
charges as set out in the administrative complaints in both cases.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good point.
Add this note up at conclusions of law, that under oath, Mr.
Calvert N. Courtney, II did agree to all charges. I don't want to say
agree. Stipulate.
MR. NEALE: Stipulate to.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Stipulate to all charges in both cases,
okay?
Is that good, Mr. Neale?
MR. NEALE: Perfect.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. Case is closed.
Mr. Courtney, got your work cut out for you. So I hope you come
through for their sake.
So this case is hereby closed.
MR. LEWIS: If it please the board?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes.
MR. LEWIS: Is it all right to ask Mr. Courtney ifhe feels
comfortable to come up to the board for a question? I just have a
question. I'd like him to answer how many more of these cases he
thinks we're going to see.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Come on up.
MR. LEWIS: Ifhe feels comfortable. He certainly doesn't have
to answer that, if you don't want --
MR. COURTNEY: I think it's a fair and legitimate question.
When I was before the board in January, I disclosed that there
was about $80,000 worth. And there are two more after these. And
the only way that I'm solving this problem is the sales of assets. And
fortunately we were in a position that we had some. It's an awful
market for that, but we've settled an awful lot of these cases. And
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March 21, 2007
none of them done with any other intent than to go to work and do it
well and make a living, put food on the table. And there are some
more.
MR. LEWIS: Can I make a personal suggestion to you? Do
your utmost best to get with these people prior to coming before us
again. Because this is not weighing well on you as a contractor in this
county.
MR. COURTNEY: Yes, sir.
MR. LEWIS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, case is close and we're finished
with it. Let's move on.
I hope we don't see you again, Mr. Courtney. We wish you well.
To the lady who's sitting in the back, I would love to let you
speak, but unfortunately I don't have the -- the leniency to allow that.
I can talk to you otherwise, unless it's about an upcoming case, which
would violate the Sunshine Law. So I wish I could. I know you're
stressed out over this as well. So hopefully I won't have to see you
anymore. Wouldn't that be wonderful?
Okay, reports. County wants more money. Go ahead, licensing
board. It's a good time to raise prices.
MR. OSSORIO: Good morning, Mr. Chairman.
MR. LEWIS: Everybody's out of work.
MR. OSSORIO: To my defense, under reports, this document,
proposed annual fees and contractor licensing was the work of Paul
Balzano. And he actually took lead in this, and it took several months,
almost a year.
And he did his homework, called a lot of these counties
throughout the State of Florida and got their fee schedules. And this
fee is -- this schedule is about a year old.
But we are in the process -- the building director wanted me to
talk to you a little bit about this fee schedule and get somewhat of an
input or a census of where you think we should go with this.
Page 42
March 21, 2007
Weare going to raise some fees. These fees are related to
contractor licensing business as of trucks, vehicles, salaries, whatever
it might be. And the building director wanted me to go ahead and let
you look at it.
I know under the ordinance you really don't have any authority
over the fees, schedules and what are our fees, but he felt that when he
does his executive summary he would like to go ahead and at least the
licensing board be on board or at least be informed of what we're
doing.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can I bring up one issue that I want to
see resolved?
MR. OSSORIO: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why do I as a state certified
contractor have to come in each year and pay Collier County $10 to
let them know that I exist?
MR. OSSORIO: You don't.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I think that's in violation of Florida
statutes.
MR. OSSORIO: You don't.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is it over?
MR. OSSORIO: No, you don't pay every year. You pay every
other year. Only due to the fact is -- only the fact is because your
license, your State of Florida license -- and I'm not here to go ahead
and be negative or positive towards the county and state certified
contractors.
But your license is good till 2008. And you need to bring --
every two years you bring a copy of your license, and we do an entry
and cause county financial obligations to put that in the system.
You don't pay every year, you don't pay every six months, you
pay -- you just update your county insurance, and there should be, I
think the term is nominal fee, to register your license. And you need
to register every two years, because that's when your license is due.
Page 43
March 21, 2007
And we don't have state records that we just go in a database and
say, oh, Mr. Dickson's license in '08's been renewed without you
coming forward and doing so. Because you might not want to work in
Collier County. You may be from Sarasota and you registered one
year with us, but you don't want to do it next year. So your license is
canceled in our system. Obviously your license is active in other
jurisdictions. But you pay a fee, a service to get yourself reactivated
per state statute.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's the first decent answer I've ever
heard.
MR. JOSLIN: You have to do this in other counties, also. This
isn't the only municipality that does it.
MR. LEWIS: Well, except for the fact that that procedure was
initiated well before the computer age, and has not been taken off
since the computer age. Because you and I as an individual can go
onto the state website, which pretty much everybody has access to,
including our public library system that we pay large impact fees for,
to double check licensing and state requirements for licensees.
However, it is in the books and into the Florida Building Code.
MR. OSSORIO: Well, the thing about it is, is whose
responsibility is it? Is it the county's responsibility to say, hey, Mr.
Dickson, did you renew? Let me go check. Or is it Mr. Dickson's
responsibility to come in and make sure that he is up to date and
current with the county under state law.
MR. LEWIS: Well, according to state law it's Mr. Dickson's at
this point. Or any other county that wants to work in Collier County
or any other county in the state.
But what my point is, is that's not unnecessary (sic) at this point.
You shouldn't have to check it out. If someone wants to know if Mr.
Dickson is a state licensed contractor, they can get on the state website
under myfloridalicense.com and find out, and within seconds without
bothering you guys doing your job, which is the county licensing.
Page 44
March 21, 2007
MR. OSSORIO: No, but you've got to understand something,
that the $10.00 is only for registration for building permits. If you are
a state certified contractor and you do not pull building permits, you
do not need to register with the county for $10.00.
That is -- state law requires the building official, under the code,
that if you pull a building permit under the application process, you
must provide copies of workers' comp, insurance and liability. That is
a reason why we check your license.
I personally don't -- any state contractor working in Collier
County doesn't pull building permits. We don't care what he does.
We have no jurisdiction over that. But if you're going to pull a
building permit, we're mandated on your permit application under 455
to check your workers compo insurance. And how do we check that?
We're not going to do it for free.
MR. LEWIS: I guarantee you that they can revamp the system,
which is antiquated.
And I'll end under this comment, that it shouldn't be your
necessity to check that. Your licensing requirements are the county
licensing requirements, not state contractors. It should be done at the
permitting process, which is easily done. Besides that, it's ten bucks
and --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I'll end it with -- it wasn't the 10
bucks. Just tell the girls I tried. Tell the girls I tried.
MR. BOYD: Most places charge 25 anyway.
MR. OSSORIO: We want a certified check from you from now
on.
MR. LEWIS: I'm sure mine's going to need to be, too.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tell the girls in the office I did my
best. But if you know what it's like every two years in September in
their office, that one would have eliminated a whole lot of lines.
MR. LEWIS: And just think about it, as a state contractor that
works in probably 12 counties in this state, you've got to go to each
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March 21, 2007
one of them to do it. So it becomes -- it's not just, you know, one
county where --
MR. OSSORIO: Well, we send you notification.
MR. LEWIS: Actually, yeah, Collier County is actually one of
the forerunners. Now there are several counties, and I won't mention
their names, that don't charge and send it out and you can register on
computer. But beyond that --
MR. OSSORIO: I've seen that. And that's something that it's not
in my control.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, you want to go back to raising
your pnces.
MR. OSSORIO: Well, these fees have not been raced since
1992. As I told you before, this is a product of Paul Balzano. And he
did a lot of homework on this. He worked hard on it. And now we're
just now going forward with this proposal.
I believe it only gets amended once a year. And the building
director wanted to get his consensus. So you can review it, take a look
at it. You can make a recommendation today or if you want to reflect
on it and get back to me next month, we could do so, whatever the
pleasure.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a comment. And then if you
want -- do you want a consensus of the board?
MR. OSSORIO: Yes, we do.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, my comment is, timing is
everything. And this is like sending flowers to your wife after you've
done something really bad.
I mean, Collier County does not need the money. I realize we're
probably under-priced, but if anybody has a touch of what's going on
in the construction industry right now, the people in permitting can tell
you, because you can get a permit right now in about 10 minutes. I
did.
MR. JOSLIN: Boy, you're a lucky dude then.
Page 46
March 21, 2007
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But--
MR. JOSLIN: I spent six weeks in the City of Naples.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, regardless, this is absolutely the
worst time to be talking about increases in the construction industry.
MR. OSSORIO: Well, and I agree with you in a sense as a
taxpayer, of course. But as a licensing supervisor, I wouldn't be here
doing my job if I didn't tell you these fees are for licensing issues. And
we have issues that are being addressed by the -- we have someone in
the -- an accountant in our office that is looking at our numbers to see
where we are.
We hadn't raised fees since 1992. We would be here today, no
matter what the building process would be. We were doing this a year
ago. Now, obviously it was held back, whatever it is. We're going to
take a look at the numbers of what we bring in, what we need to
operate. Now, these numbers might go down, and these numbers
might go up. I could not tell you. But these are the numbers that Paul
Balzano worked on for many, many months with other jurisdictions in
counties.
And he went right down the middle. These are not the highest
and these are not the lowest. But clearly when -- and I'll give you an
example. Clearly when our staff writes a letter, a reciprocity letter to
another jurisdiction and she spends 20 minutes typing up a letter and
we mail it out and it cost the gentleman $3.00, that's absurd. Or if we
sponsor you taking an exam for $25 when most counties are in the
four, $500 range. Now, I'm not saying that we need to raise revenue
that way, but it's something we need to look into and be competitive
and be able to provide the service we need to the citizens of Collier
County.
Especially with investigations. We do the City of Naples, we do
the City of Marco Island, we do Chokoloskee, and we have full-time
investigators for each one. And we need to provide service to each
building official in those jurisdictions.
Page 47
March 21, 2007
MR. JOSLIN: Maybe Mr. Dickson needs to be advised of last
month's meeting of why this started regarding the contractor that came
here from across the -- from Miami. And we're being targeted as one
of the people that will give the test and the fees are very cheap here.
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, Mr. Dickson wasn't here last meeting,
but we did have an impromptu (sic) meeting referencing Palm Beach
and Martin County.
Palm Beach -- and I'll give you, Mr. Dickson, a little lecture
about Palm Beach. Palm Beach County is the only county in the State
of Florida that Before you -- the county lets you let that person be
sponsored, you have -- need to attend their licensing board. You can't
take the exam without going in front of the licensing board. And then
they do the reverse, they look at your application, they look at your
experience, and then they give you permission to do so.
And if they don't feel that you're capable of taking the exam, they
won't issue that exam to you.
Now, it's the same exam we have. It's called Prometric. But
there's a loophole in Palm Beach, that if you do have a license in
Collier County, then you can apply for Palm Beach County and save
about $1,000 in fees and not go in front of the licensing board.
So not only that the public in Palm Beach has said that we don't
want any licensed -- registered licensed contractors working in Palm
Beach without going in front of the licensing board, they found a
system that the county -- our county will sponsor them for $25, take
the test for $92, we do all the legwork, check their workers comp.,
check their insurance, check their references, issue them a license, and
then they go to Palm Beach County and with one letter or two letters,
they reciprocate and get a license.
That has been going on for six, seven months. It's been an issue
and contentious with our office for many months, even when Paul
Balzano was here.
But we have taken steps with that. We had meetings by phone
Page 48
March 21, 2007
with the building director in Palm Beach County, and I believe that he
sends his apology to the licensing board. That wasn't his intentions.
And when he found out this was happening, that he's told everyone,
you know, to look more closely on these applications they received.
We haven't had that many this month.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We could send a whole bunch of bad
ones to him.
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, that's true, too.
But I guess the bulk of the work is still over in Collier County.
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Ossorio, forgive me for not understanding
this, but don't we in Collier County, we being a collective licensing
board and office, don't we do the same thing, only instead of coming
in front of the board they come in front of the licensing officers, as
yourselves?
MR. OSSORIO: Yes.
MR. LEWIS: So -- and the only thing that we're really missing
here is a fee that we believe that Palm Beach charges additional for
them to come in front of the board. So instead of the board members
reviewing each application license, you guys review in Collier County
MR. OSSORIO: Only after you take the exam. We mimic the
State of Florida. State of Florida, you fill the application out, you take
the exam, and then you fill your packet out and then they go over your
credentials and your workers compo and your bonding, the whole nine
yards.
MR. LEWIS: So based on what Palm Beach is trying to do is,
yeah, they're trying to tell you whether you're experienced enough to
be licensed in their county before you go to all the expense, the
additional expense of taking the test and et cetera.
MR. OSSORIO: Well, the testing -- like I said, our test, to be
sponsored by us is $25. I believe Palm Beach, to get sponsored by
just Palm Beach, is $400 and change. That's just to be sponsored by
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March 21, 2007
them. That's not even saying you're going to pass or fail. That's
something to be sponsored by. And I think our proposal for being
sponsored is $100.
MR. JOSLIN: Is that a fee that they pay before they even take
the test?
MR. OSSORIO: Yep. That's the fee they get -- no individual
can actually just go to a testing site without being sponsored by a
county. If you're not sponsored by Palm Beach County, you won't get
a license, unless you go to another county, which is Collier County or
Martin County.
MR. JOSLIN: Makes since why they're coming here then.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, and understand, too, when you
hear all this -- for example, Lee County meets twice a month. There's
17 people on their board. They only need five to show up. It's at 6:30
in the evenings. Twice a -- every two weeks. Sometimes three times a
months.
And they do the same thing, but it's by a consent agenda. They're
-- there'll never be less than 20 or 25 contractors in the audience. And
you review the paperwork before the meeting starts at 6:30. And I've
been told the average meeting lasts 10 minutes.
MR. OSSORIO: I do believe that our license -- we're much more
efficient than Lee County is in how we conduct business and how we
accept applications. Lee County is considered a general contracting
county. You don't register your state license with Lee County. They
used to. State registered, not certified.
MS. KELLER: I have no problems with these fees being raised,
because it's a small amount, it's paid once a year. And you guys I
think are doing more work than you've done since I've been on this
board. So I think it should have been done sooner. The timing's not
great, but that doesn't mean that you don't do it. Because it's only
going to get worse each year that passes, so --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The reason we haven't raised prices
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March 21, 2007
since 1992, we did have a price increase, and it was called citations.
And the guy we hired to do citations was Michael Ossorio, and he
increased the revenue so much prices never had to be looked at again.
So I guess you're telling me the citation income is down?
MR. OSSORIO: They are down --
MS. KELLER: They're not paying.
MR. OSSORIO: -- I can't deny that. But they are down. But our
caseload is different. We're -- it's a different breed of cases now.
We're doing a lot more cases versus contractors.
Perfect example, Mr. Courtney. We deal with that on a daily
basis. That's just one of, you know, 50 we're doing.
Things slow down, contractor licensing picks up. Don't think for
one minute that if you don't -- Mr. Dickson, that if you don't layoff 10
individuals -- they're going to do one of two things: They're going to
leave town or they're going to be in my office trying to get a license to
work illegally.
So yeah, things I think are going to pick up for us in the next six
months.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't have a problem with the prices,
I just have a problem with the timing. Whoever is here in September
will be those that survived.
MR. LEWIS: And weighing in with the board, I too concur with
Mr. Dickson. I think the timing stinks. You know, six months ago
this would have been a wonderful thing and it would have been, hey,
yeah, let's do it. But timing is not always everything.
And I agree with Ms. Keller, I don't have a problem with the fees,
they're actually pretty concurrent with what the state fees would be for
a licensed contractor. So as far as the fee increases, albeit almost 100
percent, I don't think that anyone would see that being out of course
with today's standards.
MR. JOSLIN: I would say the same thing, and say that these
should be maybe increased and given a six-month leeway here to see
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March 21, 2007
what the market here is going to actually do. Because you know
construction is down at the moment. And I think right now -- I agree,
it is a very bad time to raise the fees.
MS. KELLER: It could be worse in six months.
MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, just remember -- I just want to make sure
you understand the difference between what you're trying -- what
we're talking about. We're not talking about -- yes, we are in the
building department, but we have a separate fund. Contractor
licensing fund. And we need -- I don't know what the numbers are.
They might come back and say you know what, Mike, you're
absolutely right, you're right where you should be. But I want to be
able to keep the same level of service. I want to be able to understand
that we're on the same page about building permits and about
applications, or about conducting business in the licensing department.
Two different --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, as a board, how about if we do
two motions and you can take back two votes. One is that we approve
your fee increase and the other is we don't approve it because your
timing is bad.
MR. OSSORIO: That I can make sense of.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I make the motion that the fees
are not out of line but the timing is terrible, and this needs to wait until
the construction industry recovers. And it doesn't have to be formal.
All those in favor of that motion, to wait till the construction
industry recovers. All those in favor?
MR. LEWIS: Albeit subjective, I think we can all agree, aye.
MS. KELLER: But these numbers are so small.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to go the other way, too.
Well, they vote against it.
MS. KELLER: I don't understand. Once a year, right?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's okay. Vote against it.
MS. KELLER: I'm just trying to understand.
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March 21, 2007
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's okay, vote against it. I mean,
it's once a year, $40.00?
MR. HORN: I'm for it.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, that was a vote of6-1.
All those that think we should go ahead and institute the price
increases now. Ann's going to make that motion. Because they are
small, and they're reasonable.
MS. KELLER: Do we need to have a fundraiser for contractors
now or something? I'll do it at our house.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's perception. And the perception is
that the county hasn't always been in line with the construction
industry, which is probably the second largest industry in this county.
And now impact fees are absolutely killing the construction industry
that were indiscriminately raised when everything was good. And
here comes along a little bit more mud in your face. And I don't think
the county needs to do that.
MR.OSSORIO: Well, let's do this, Mr. Dickson. Obviously I
agree whatever you want me to agree to, because I'm a public servant.
But with that said, I think maybe if you had another straw vote
and say that I agree with the price increase if it is warranted to fund
our department. Because remember, you're thinking building permits
and you're thinking slow down. I'm not thinking like that. I'm
thinking that slow down? We're going to be busy. Remember, we
work for contractor licensing fund, which is not funded -- I think is not
funded by the building department. We're funded by fees, by citations
and that forward, so --
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're not part of the general budget?
MR. OSSORIO: I don't think we are. We have our own budget.
And there is -- someone's going to do some analyzing to see
where we need to be to be status quo. This has been going on for six
months, but obviously now it's coming to a head due to the fact that
either -- that it's coming up to the BCC in two months. And the
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March 21, 2007
building director wanted to get your consensus in that matter.
Whatever I bring back to him is a positive -- that straw vote you
just said is a positive. But I want to make sure we're on the same page
of how we fund services and how licensing interacts with the building
department. They're two separate but they're together.
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Ossorio is partially correct. And not being a
great finder of belief in truth in the general budget, he's correct. Each
department tries to stand on their own, and that's what Mr. Ossorio's
trying to make a point to us and to the public that, you know,
contractor licensing is out there doing their job. And as things slow
down in the construction industry, more people come in and try to
underscore our licensing requirements, which makes more work for
them in their department.
And I agree that we need to base this upon the actual audit that's
being done. And I'm sure that the people in charge will do that at the
county level.
MR. OSSORIO: We're not looking for any staff increase by far.
We're not looking to add another Maggie or another customer service
or another investigator. We just want to be able to be competitive
with the market and also be competitive of justifying why we're here.
And fees.
I would be here today if it was -- I don't know what the market's
like. I'm not out in the field too much anymore. But I want to be able
to say that some of these fees we have are absurd, and it is timing.
Maybe for you it is timing. But you need to think of licensing versus
what's out there in the field. You know, when --
MR. LEWIS: And unfortunately at this point, if I can just add
into that. Bottom line is it's always been this way, that the few honest
people pay for the many that are dishonest, and that's exactly what's
happening here.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, someone make another motion,
if you want.
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March 21, 2007
MR. LEWIS: I'm good with the first one.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And we'll end this thing. I'm not going
to make it, but go ahead.
MS. KELLER: No one will go with mine.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, we will. Try it. Go. It's been
so long since we've seen you, they'll probably just go with it because
it's yours.
MS. KELLER: Okay, I make a move that we approve the
proposed fees -- I make a motion that we approve the proposed fees
for the increase in annual fees for contractor licensing.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. All those -- we're not going to
do seconds. This is just straw poll. All those in favor?
MS. KELLER: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else?
MR. JOSLIN: In six months.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those opposed?
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. LEWIS: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sorry, Ann, it's nothing personnel.
MR. LEWIS: He fibbed to you, didn't he?
MR. NEALE: Mr. Dickson, one point. I think Mr. Ossorio made
it and the board may want to consider weighing in on this issue,
though, is that in any event I think this board would do well to make a
recommendation to the county commission that they maintain the
current -- at least the current level of service within contractor
licensing supervision and enforcement. Because I think that's an issue
that's important to this board because of its view on protecting the
citizens of Collier County. So--
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March 21, 2007
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And as chairman of this board,
first of all, the staff we have right now -- and you're my number sixth.
You're the sixth chief investigator that I've served under, or served
with. So that goes back a ways.
I can name all of them except the first one. But you were here,
Mr. Bartoe.
MR. BARTOE: Dick Clark?
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, Dick. I couldn't remember
Dick's name.
But with that said, you being number six, this department is more
proficient, more aggressive than I've seen in 18 years. And a
reduction in this department would be a travesty, especially with
things slowing down. Like the cases we had today. And there's going
to be more cases, there are going to be more unlicensed activity.
For example, the Florida Department of Professional Regulation
which handles state certified contractors, Sergio Gonzalez is the
inspector up in Fort Myers. They have added people to his staff
because of that reason. And Sergio's been a joy to work with.
Have you worked with him?
MR. OSSORIO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. But a reduction in the staff is
ridiculous. And if it's a matter of funding, then I know how
government accounting is, and it's just a matter of funding from
somewhere else.
And the reason that this board today couldn't -- as contractors up
here, we couldn't walk out the door and face the construction industry
and said, you know, hey, thanks a lot for raising our licenses in one of
the worst times we've gone through in the last 10, 15 years. It was just
a perception. That's why I could never vote for it.
It had nothing to do with you guys. In fact, these prices aren't
high enough.
MR. JOSLIN: I agree.
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March 21, 2007
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you're going to raise prices, wait six
months and kick them. No one's going to complain about that. $150
for initial license fee? That's nothing for all the paperwork involved
and the staff involved. I mean, get series about these prices, if you're
going to raise them. Just don't do it now. Whoa, shot.
MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, if! may for the board's
consideration, at Mr. Neale's suggestion, I got a little something here
that maybe the board would consider making a recommendation to the
Board of County Commission, to maintain the current level of service
that is provided by Collier County Contracting Licensing Division.
And that if it requires a fee increased to cover those costs, then make
those reflective of the additional costs incurred. For the board's
approval.
MR. JOSLIN: Is that a motion?
MR. BOYD: Second.
MR. LEWIS: It's actually not so much a motion as it is a
recommendation that would need to be signed by the chairman.
MR. NEALE: Take a vote on it. It doesn't need to be a formal
vote, as like the others, a straw vote.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you'll type it?
MR. NEALE: Urn-hum.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, motion, second. All those in
favor?
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. LEWIS: Aye.
MS. KELLER: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed?
Unanimous.
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March 21, 2007
Okay, anything else to come before this board?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a motion?
MR. LEWIS: Move to adjourn.
MR. JOSLIN: Second.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor, aye.
MR. HERRIMAN: Aye.
MR. LEWIS: Aye.
MS. KELLER: Aye.
MR. JOSLIN: Aye.
MR. BOYD: Aye.
MR. HORN: Aye.
CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, folks.
*****
There being no further business for the good of the County, the
meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 10:43 a.m.
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS
LICENSING BOARD
LES DICKSON, Chairman
These minutes approved by the Board on
or as corrected
, as presented
TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY
COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. BY CHERIE'
NOTTINGHAM.
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