CLB Minutes 09/16/2020 September 16,2020
MINUTES
OF THE COLLIER COUNTY
CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD MEETING
September 16, 2020
Naples, Florida
LET IT BE REMEMBERED that the Collier County Contractors' Licensing
Board, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 AM in
REGULAR SESSION in Administrative Building "F," 3rd Floor, Collier County
Government Complex, Naples, Florida, with the following Members present:
Chairman: Matthew Nolton
Vice Chair: Terry Jerulle
Members: Michael Boyd
Richard E. Joslin
Kyle E. Lantz
Patrick G. White
Excused: Robert P. Meister
ALSO PRESENT:
Tim Crofts — Supervisor, Contractors' Licensing Office
Michelle Ramkissoon— Operations Supervisor, Contractors' Licensing Office
Sally Ashkar, Esq. —Assistant Collier County Attorney
Kevin Noell, Esq. —Attorney for the Contractors' Licensing Board
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September 16,2020
Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this Board will need a record of the
proceedings and may need to ensure that a verbatim record of said proceedings is made,
which record includes the testimony and evidence upon which any Appeal is to be made.
1. ROLL CALL:
Vice Chairman Terry Jerulle opened the meeting at 9:00 AM and read the procedures to
be followed to appeal a decision of the Board.
Roll Call was taken; four(4) members were present in the BCC Chambers.
It was noted that Matthew Nolton, the Board Chairman, and Patrick White, a Board
Member, were appearing via telephone conference call.
A quorum was established; six(6)voting members were present.
2. AGENDA-ADDITIONS,CHANGES, OR DELETIONS:
Timothy Crotts, Contractor Licensing Office Supervisor, announced the County had
WITHDRAWN the following cases:
• Elio Millet—Contesting Citation#11415 —will pay the fine;
• Denis Segatto—Contesting Citation#11426—will not contest the Citations; he
has decided to obtain his license;
• Thomas R. Williams—Application to Qualify a New Company—has been
withdrawn by the owner of the company.
[Note: This case initially appeared on the July 15t1 Agenda and had been
rescheduled to be heard at the September Board meeting.]
3. APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
Patrick White moved to approve the Agenda as amended. Kyle Lantz offered a Second
in support of the motion. Carried unanimously, 6—0.
4. APPROVAL OF MINUTES—AUGUST 19,2020:
Richard Joslin moved to approve the Minutes of the August 19, 2020 Meeting as submitted.
Kyle Lantz offered a Second in support of the motion.
Carried unanimously, 6—0.
5. PUBLIC COMMENT:
(None)
September 16,2020
6. DISCUSSION:
A. Review of the Occupational Freedom and Opportunity Act—Board Member Kyle
Lantz asked to discuss how this law would affect the Contractors Licensing Board
and operation of the Contractors' Licensing Office.
Supervisor Crotts stated the Occupational Freedom and Opportunity Act, which is
was part of House Bill#1193, was reviewed with the County Attorney's Office and
Michael Ossorio, Director of Code Enforcement. It was determined that less than
one percent (1%) would apply to Contractors' Licensing. However, there are some
elements involving education which are under review to determine what impact, if
any, on Contractors' Licensing and if a change to the Ordinance may be necessary.
Supervisor Crotts continued the one element in effect is the Handyman Exemption.
The Handyman Exemption falls under Florida Statutes, Section 489.103, entitled
"Exemptions." The State has increased the amount that a handyman may charge or
receive from $1,000 to $2,500. The language in the Statute has not changed. The
nature of the work is categorized as "... casual, minor, or inconsequential ..." In the
future, whenever the Board deals with a handyman issue, it will determine if the
work in question falls into one of the three categories, as well as the amount charged
for the work that was performed.
Supervisor Crotts further stated that a handyman is not allowed to pull a building
permit. Additionally, a handyman may not perform work that affects structural
components, or use toxic or hazardous chemicals/substances, or affects the access or
egress to a structure.
Richard Joslin: So,the work itself hasn't changed at all—just the dollar amount?
Supervisor Crotts: Right.
7. REPORTS:
• Supervisor Crotts announced that on September 8, 2020, Joseph M. Coleman was
appointed to the Contractors' Licensing Board by the Collier County Board of County
Commissioners. Mr. Coleman will represent"Consumers" from District 2. He is
expected to attend the Board's meeting in October.
• Supervisor Crotts introduced James Reynolds who is a new Licensing Compliance
Officers. Mr. Reynolds, who was born in West Palm Beach, is in the process of
completing his training and probationary period.
• Richard Joslin: How many Investigators do we currently have?
• Supervisor Crofts: James will be our 4th and we have made a conditional offer of
employment to a 5th individual.
8. NEWS BUSINESS:
A. Orders of the Board
Kyle Lantz moved to approve authorizing the Vice Chairman to sign the Orders of the
Board. Richard Joslin offered a Second in support of the motion.
Carried unanimously, 6- 0.
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September 16,2020
The following cases were WITHDRAWN by the County,per the Amended Agenda:
B. Elio Millet: Contesting Citation Number 11415
C. Denis Segatto: Contesting Citation Number 11426
Vice Chairman Jerulle called Henry Amen to the podium.
It was noted that Henry Amen was not present.
Supervisor Crotts stated he had spoken with Mr. Amen on Monday and he indicated he
would attend. The Supervisor suggested the Board hear Mr. Fletcher's case in the interim.
Vice Chairman Jerulle agreed,
D. Henry Amen: Contesting Citation Number 10624
Citation Number: 10624 (Unlicensed General Contracting)
Date Issued: January 16, 2020
Amount of Fine: $1,000
Violation:
Engage in the business or act in the capacity of a Contractor, or advertise self or
business organization as available to engage in the business or act in the capacity
of a Contractor without being duly registered or certified
E. Henry Amen: Contesting Citation Number 10625
Citation Number: 10625 (Commencing Work without Obtaining a Permit)
Date Issued: January 16,2020
Amount of Fine: $1,000
Violation:
Commence or perform work for which a building permit is required pursuant to an
adopted state minimum Building Code or without such permit being in effect.
(Note: The individuals who testified in the following case under Item 8, "New
Business," were first sworn in by the Attorney for the Board.)
F. Joshua Fletcher: Review of Experience
(Company: "Commercial Landscape Professionals d/b/a Trimac Outdoor")
Vice Chairman Jerulle called Mr. Fletcher to the podium.
Joshua Fletcher provided background information:
• He opened Trimac Outdoor fourteen years ago.
• The business focus: commercial landscape projects for municipalities, HOAs,
apartment communities, condo communities, and office complexes.
• The business performs maintenance for commercial properties. i.e., mowing,
edging, weeding, blowing,trimming shrubbery, etc.
• The company also inspects irrigation systems and makes repairs to the systems.
• The company does not install irrigation systems.
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September 16,2020
• He stated: While irrigation inspection is a small part of the company's business,
it is an important part.
• The company has 200 employees and ten are irrigation techs.
• He stated he did not work for an irrigation company directly—he has worked
"with" irrigation companies, and as he built the company, he hired irrigation
technicians. He further stated, "I am not a 'tree guy' myself. I hire people with
expertise in that field."
• The irrigation techs in his company each average 10 to 20 years of experience in
the field.
• The irrigation techs are licensed by the State of Florida and his employees in other
trades, such as pest control, are also licensed.
• He passed the Irrigation/Sprinkler test on July 21, 2020 with a score of 76.
• He stated he knows irrigation"very well" and performed some repairs when he
first started his company. "I understand exactly how an irrigation system works --
we wouldn't be maintaining what we maintain if we didn't."
• One of his clients is the City of Miami Beach and its municipalities. It is big—
over$2 Million.
• We do the City of Mount Dora,the City of Belle Isle, Plant City, Pinellas Park,
Pinellas County,the Lee County Port Authority,the Lee County Airport—one of
the sections there. We have a wide array of private clients—World Golf Village
in St. Augustine, Westminster Villages in Orlando, and Collier County.
• Collier County selected us because of our experience. This is all in our packet.
Vice Chairman Jerulle questioned the Applicant:
Q. So, let me understand something—you work all over the State?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you are applying for an Irrigation License in Collier County?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So, when you work all over the State, do you do irrigation in any other parts of the
State?
A. We do irrigation inspections. A tech will inspect an irrigation system—punch in
the timers and look at them and we do minor repairs.
Q. Do you have a license in any other county?
A. The only other county—other than Collier County—that requires a license is Lee
County,but the Lee County Port Authority—which is our only account there—
doesn't have irrigation. We don't have a tech there—our Best Management
Practices License. We have techs in Pinellas County, and we did apply and get a
license for there—for Pinellas County and Pinellas Park because they do require it.
Q. So, you have an Irrigation License in Pinellas County?
A. Either in Pinellas Park or Pinellas County—it's either the Park or the County—it
just happened.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Mr. Crotts,that's not transferrable?
Supervisor Crotts: It would be, but this is the first we've heard about that particular
license.
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September 16,2020
A. So, Pinellas County—we just took over the Pinellas contract ... maybe a month
ago. And they did ask that we get our Best Management Practices—we have
BMPs for all of our employees who work there. They did ask that we get our
BMP for Irrigation and we passed that, so now we have that. So, Duval County,
Clay County, St. John's County—they don't require licenses past Jacksonville.
And Orange County doesn't require a license.
Q. So, rather than go through all the counties in the State, you have a license in either
Pinellas County or Pinellas Park—you're not quite sure?
A. Yes.
Q. And you're asking for an Irrigation License just for Collier County?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I just wanted to clarify why you are here. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Do you
have anything else to say?
A. I just want to be clear—I know the request on the application was my experience
but I know exactly how an irrigation system works and I could bore you to death
with it right now,but I also have ten techs under me who honestly know a lot
more. Everybody has their expertise.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: So, I'd like to ask the County—what is the requirement to
get an Irrigation License?
Supervisor Crotts: The requirement to obtain an Irrigation License under our
Ordinance would be to pass the Business and Law exam and to pass the Trade exam.
The other items that we look at is the credit score which was fine—the business credit
score which was fine—and then the experience of the individual who is applying for
the license to qualify his company.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: And what is the experience requirement?
Supervisor Crotts: The Code of Law and Ordinances for Collier County states, in
Chapter 22, Article V, Section 22-162: an"Irrigation Sprinkler Contractor ... means
any person who is qualified to install, maintain, repair, alter or extend all piping and
sprinkler heads used for irrigation, including any required connections to a water
pump; however, such work does not include direct connection to potable water lines."
He has to be able to show this experience.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: It is a year's experience ... five years ...does it say?
Supervisor Crotts: It's twenty-four months, sir.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Okay.
Kyle Lantz: I have some questions.
Kyle Lantz questioned the Applicant:
Q. Did you say you helped supervise irrigation techs for more than 24 months?
A. For over ten years. I've been in business for 14 years and I would say for the first
two years, I didn't do any irrigation at all. When we got into doing irrigation,the
first thing I did was hire a guy with a license—a State license—and I worked with
him for five years. Now, I own the company and I can't stop owning the company
to go to work for somebody else,you know,the get the experience that way. But
my company ... I could show you our books—we've been doing irrigation for
twelve years.
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September 16,2020
Q. What's your supervisory role? Do you say, 'go to this job at 8:30?' or do you say,
'you might need 390s to check this out?'
A. So,we schedule ... so this is how it works. We have, say, our techs inspect forty
properties and when they inspect the properties,they write a report. In that report
there may also be a repair schedule which we will give to the client. You can call
it an appraisal, and if the client approves it,then I schedule the techs—me and the
General Manager of the company—we schedule the techs to go out and we oversee
them. We over see them, and we know exactly what's going on—both of us do.
We may have a main line break here which we need to get up and running. Or we
have a stuck valve and we would know it's either a solenoid or the valve needs to
be replaced. If a backflow is leaking—we would call in a licensed backflow
preventer company. That's basically the sum of it—it's all just inspection and
minor repair. That's all we do.
Q. But you're part of it?
A. One hundred percent.
Q. Okay. Now the license that you have in Pinellas County—are you the license
holder or is somebody else in your company the license holder?
A. I can be the license holder—I just took the BMP ("Best Management Practices")
for fern and pest control, and the BMP for BMP Irrigation. I did take the test here
and I passed that. But I think I had somebody else do it—I think it was Todd—
Todd Murphy—he's our GM. Todd was with`BrightView" [BrightView
Commercial Landscape Services]—I don't know if you know who they are, but
Todd was with BrightView for twenty-five years.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Any other questions?
Patrick White: At the top of Page 116,the Applicant's Affidavit states he has five
years [of experience] in the field. From the County's perspective, it appears that the
issue which brings him before the Board instead of the Supervisor making the
determination, I am guessing, is the absence of any supporting Affidavits from other
individuals who would be in a position to know the level of experience of the
Applicant. Is that accurate?
Supervisor Crotts: Yes, we looked at the Affidavits that we received and, in my
opinion, did not meet the element of having the experience to be issued the license
directly from the Supervisor's Office.
Josh Fletcher: Tim, do you have those -- is there any way that you can bring these
up? [Turned to the viewing screen.] These are not the specific Irrigation ... that's for
the Business Law [test score] ...
Patrick White: Understood. Mr. Jerulle, if I may? Mr. Crofts—having heard the
sworn testimony of the Applicant, does the County have a recommendation?
Supervisor Crotts: The County recommends that the license not be issued to Mr.
Fletcher. However, it does sound as if he has employees within his organization who
do have the experience and who could move forward to get the Irrigation License for
his company.
Patrick White: Am I mistaken in understanding his testimony to be that—as stated in
his Affidavit on Page 116 of the application packet—that he has five years of field
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September 16,2020
experience. I am a little unclear as to why that doesn't—along with his testimony
today—meet the twenty-four month minimum ...?
Supervisor Crotts: We looked at the ...
Patrick White: (muffled)
Supervisor Crotts: Go ahead, sir.
Patrick White: I'm prepared to make a motion to approve. But I am trying to
understand your thought process from your recommendation.
Supervisor Crotts: Whenever anybody comes in for a license, we always speak to
the individual to make sure the information contained in the packet is correct. If Mr.
Fletcher says he has five years of experience in the field and with his testimony today,
a lot of it is supervisory. He hasn't done a lot of hands-on work and even with the
Affidavits that we received—his company has obviously done some type of irrigation
—but not a full irrigation. And based upon what our requirements are, our office felt
that it did not qualify him to get the license and to bring him before the Board.
Josh Fletcher: Can I just say one thing?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Did you understand that, Mr. White? Do you have another
question or a follow-up?
Patrick White: I do understand that ... and just one other point of clarification ... is
this application before us to work in Collier County related to the company being hired
by the County to perform irrigation services in the unincorporated County?
Kyle Lantz: Do you need this license to fulfill your contract with Collier County?
Josh Fletcher: We would need it to fulfill a portion of our contract. It's a small
portion but,yes,we do need it—just like we needed one in every other municipality
that we already do.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: So,you already ...
Josh Fletcher: I just want to answer one thing that he said. So, I have done a lot of
irrigation installation repair—when I say, "installation" I mean installing heads,
repairing a pipe,whatever, over the years—hands-on. But not for five years straight.
And that's the thing about running a company,you know, if I needed to do something
in a hole, I got in the hole and I did it. But did I do it for five years in a row? No. And
over fourteen years—it's,you know ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: So you feel you have the experience, I understand that, and
you're trying to get the license to fulfill your contract with the County. You are not
going to be out bidding irrigation work in Collier County—is that my understanding?
Josh Fletcher: We have no interest in bidding for irrigation work. We just have it for
fulfilling our maintenance contracts. And—to give you an idea—on most of our
maintenance contracts, irrigation is like three percent. And that's where our
maintenance—if you look at our website under"Irrigation Maintenance," it states we
perform inspections and repairs—and that's it.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Is there a possibility of granting some sort of probationary
license just to fulfill that ...?
Josh Fletcher: Yes, and I also think the references that I provided in the Collier
County packet—I mean, municipality after municipality that we are doing this for now
—I think that it would go a long way.
Richard Joslin: And as your testimony goes so far, none of those counties that you're
telling us about requires a license.
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September 16,2020
Kyle Lantz: But that doesn't mean that he didn't do the work though.
Josh Fletcher: They don't require a license, but we do their irrigation ... you know, I
mean ... I can't ...
Kyle Lantz: Well, I'm more than convinced that he has the experience. I'm just one
of the six, but ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Mr.Nolton, do you have a question or comment?
Chairman Matthew Nolton: I don't have a question, but I do have a comment. To
me it's clear that he has the qualifications for a conditional license. So, I would be
willing to go forward with a vote.
Vice Chairman Jerulle and Patrick White—speaking at the same time—over each
other—unintelligible.
Chairman Nolton: Did Mr. White already make a motion?
Patrick White: I'll make the motion now.
Patrick White moved to approve the application of Josh Fletcher for an Irrigation
Contractor's License. Chairman Nolton offered a Second in support of the motion.
Discussion:
• Vice Chairman Jerulle: I just want to know if the motion maker and the
second feel they need to restrict the license just to the municipal work with
Collier County and not for bidding against other Collier County companies for
irrigation work?
• Chairman Nolton: I do not.
• Patrick White: Nor do I. I do not see the concern because I believe that their
type of business, in a practical sense, put them in that position. So, I am
comfortable with the license being granted in full without any probation.
• Chairman Nolton: And I agree.
Vice Chairman Jerulle called for a vote on the motion. Carried unanimously 6—0.
Josh Fletcher: Thank you—I appreciate it. Is that it?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: I think you need to see the Supervisor.
Supervisor Crotts: We will be in contact with you.
[There was a pause in the proceedings while the podium and microphone were
sanitized by Staff.]
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Circling back to Henry Amen.
It was noted Mr. Amen was present and was sworn in by the Attorney for the Board.
D. Henry Amen: Contesting Citation Number 10624
Citation Number: 10624 (Unlicensed General Contracting)
Date Issued: January 16, 2020
Amount of Fine: $1,000
Violation:
Engage in the business or act in the capacity of a Contractor, or advertise self or
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September 16,2020
business organization as available to engage in the business or act in the capacity
of a Contractor without being duly registered or certified
E. Henry Amen: Contesting Citation Number 10625
Citation Number: 10625 (Commencing Work without Obtaining a Permit)
Date Issued: January 16, 2020
Amount of Fine: $1,000
Violation:
Commence or perform work for which a building permit is required pursuant to an
adopted state minimum Building Code or without such permit being in effect.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Good morning.
Henry Amen: How are you doing, sir?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: I am fine—how are you?
Henry Amen: Good.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: So,Mr. Amen, it appears that the County has issued two
Citations to you and you're here to convince us or explain to use why ...
Henry Amen: I have no idea why I'm on this at all. I wasn't there. You haven't
called me to come and report. I was at Home Depot. No one has ever seen me work
there—no one ever did. They have payments—if you look on the payments—they
made payments the week before—who would give anyone money the week before
anything?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: I don't understand what you're saying by that statement.
Henry Amen: All right—they showed that the guy passed me money and it was a
week before this ever happened. The thing happened on the 16th—someone gave me
money on the 1 lth? I mean—nothing makes sense. I don't get why I'm on this—it
should be the homeowners' problem, not mine. Why am I even on?
Kyle Lantz: Well,you did the work.
Henry Amen: I didn't do any work—he had laborers do the work.
Kyle Lantz: So how—why did he pay you?
Henry Amen: That was not even for that—it was a week—it happened on the 16th
What does the 11th have to do with the 16th?
Kyle Lantz: Well what did you do ...?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Mr. Amen, first of all ...
Henry Amen: I don't understand.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: ... I think you need to kind of run through the events ...
Henry Amen: I don't ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: ... calm down—calm down. Calmly run through the events
as you see them happening,please.
Henry Amen: Yeah. I know the guy—he asked me to do him a favor ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: You know which guy?
Henry Amen: Charlie ... and that's the homeowner.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Okay.
Henry Amen: He asked me to do him a favor ... I've known him from a friend ...
I just help him look at thing and I went to Home Depot for him. They never saw
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September 16,2020
me there and I was never there ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: He was a friend of yours?
Henry Amen: A friend of a friend [loudly] ... I'm not trying to ... I'm a little nervous.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Just calm down when you express yourself. So,he's a
friend of yours ... and you went to his house and he showed you some work and ...
Henry Amen: He doesn't even live there.
[The Board's attorney cautioned the Applicant to wait until the Vice Chairman was
finished asking the question before he responds.]
Henry Amen: He doesn't live there—he lives in Connecticut ... so ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: But he's a friend of yours who you did a favor for—is that
what you're saying?
Henry Amen: I did—a friend said, `Henry, help my friend out.' And I said, `okay.'
And he said, 'Go and just guide him and tell him what to do.' That's all I did. Now
the payment they showed on the 1 lth and all that—I got the Summons on the 16th. So,
where does the 11th have to do with anything on the 16th?
Kyle Lantz: So,what did you do to help him out? That's where I'm confused.
Henry Amen: That's, you know,between me and him and ... I mean ...
Kyle Lantz: Well if you're ....
Henry Amen: And you have me on a cottage ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Excuse me, sir. Sir, you can't confuse us with the County ...
Henry Amen: Okay ... or whoever ... whoever .... I'm sorry—I apologize.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Let me finish. Sir—just calm down, calm down. You're
nervous but we're having a discussion.
Henry Amen: Yes, I understand.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: The County has given you a Citation ...
Henry Amen: Okay.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Okay? That's a fact.
Henry Amen: Yes.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: You're here trying to convince this Board ...
Henry Amen: Right.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: ... which is not the County ...
Henry Amen: Right ... I'm aware of it now ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: ... we're not part of the County ...
Henry Amen: Okay—I'm aware now.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: .... we are trying to hear whether to uphold this or not.
Henry Amen: Okay.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Now,we are looking to you to explain to us why you
believe you shouldn't get the Citation.
Henry Amen: I hadn't—all right-- so ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Mr. Lantz has asked you a question.
Henry Amen: Okay—go ahead.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Well,what did you do?
Henry Amen: I was at Home Depot and you know that ... I wasn't even on the
property.
Kyle Lantz: So,this says ... how much money did he give you?
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September 16,2020
Henry Amen: That has nothing to do with it—it was way beforehand.
Kyle Lantz: Okay. So, here's the deal—your job is to convince us that you're
innocent.
Henry Amen: Okay.
Kyle Lantz: If you're going to not answer the questions 100%truthfully ...
Henry Amen: All right.
Kyle Lantz: ... or you're going to have very low odds of convincing ...
Henry Amen: Okay ... okay. You're saying that—by the pictures—you're saying
that I ...
Kyle Lantz: I'm ... no, no ... I'm not saying anything. All I'm doing is asking you ...
Henry Amen: All right ... all right ...
Kyle Lantz: ... what you did and how much you ...
Henry Amen: All right ... okay ...
Kyle Lantz: ... you were paid ...
Henry Amen: Okay. I didn't get the paperwork until the last minute ...just before
the hearing. I wasn't allowed to have it—okay? So, I get pictures showing that a
bathroom was torn out—that's it. No other ...just a bathroom torn up. Okay? Who
would give anyone $9,000 for a bathroom before they started five days before
anything?
Kyle Lantz: You are not telling me what you did and how much you were paid.
Henry Amen: I was ... I was at Home Depot and ...
Kyle Lantz: Not that day ...the whole time in the past twenty years since you've
known this guy ...
Henry Amen: I've never met the guy ...
Kyle Lantz: ... what did you do for him?
Henry Amen: ... until recently because he is a friend of a friend.
Kyle Lantz: But he gave you$9,000 to ...
Henry Amen: That was for something totally different ... and I ...
Kyle Lantz: What was that for?
Henry Amen: I ... I ... I ... really? Do I have to ... myself to you?
Kyle Lantz: No. Okay, but if you say you're innocent ...
Henry Amen: I understand but ...
Kevin Noell,Attorney for the Board: Sir,you need to quit speaking over and ...
Henry Amen: ... I'm not good at ...
Attorney Noell: I know ... you need to just relax ...
Henry Amen: I'm not good at this.
Attorney Noell: Sir, you need to quit speaking over the Board members.
Henry Amen: Okay. I'll be patient.
Attorney Noell: Please, do the same with me as I'm trying to explain to you what we
need you to do. We need you to let the Chairperson ask the question—finish his
question—and you need to slow down and provide your answer after he has completed
his question. Okay? Thank you.
Kyle Lantz: I'm not the Chairperson—just to clarify that.
Henry Amen: Yes.
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September 16,2020
Kyle Lantz: So, what I'm trying to find out is what services or whatever did you do
where you were given money? And if you don't want to tell us,that's fine.
Henry Amen: That's really between me and him.
Kyle Lantz: Okay.
Henry Amen: I mean ... these are ... can I ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Sir ... sir ...your answer is between you and him?
Henry Amen: Okay.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: That's it?
Henry Amen: He wired me on the 10th. This was six days later. Who wires someone
$4,000 in advance with no paperwork ... with no nothing ...that was for a different
reason.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Okay—if that's your answer,that's fine.
Richard Joslin: But one thing,though, sir—on one of the pages—on Page 69—I'm
showing a record from a Charlie Flanagan—is that the name of the man you worked
for?
Henry Amen: Charlie Flanagan.
Richard Joslin: It says that he gave `Henry"—which I assume is you-- $3,000 on
January 3rd?
Henry Amen: Yeah—that was for a different reason.
Richard Joslin: What was the reason?
Henry Amen: It has nothing to do with this job?
Richard Joslin: But why did you go to Home Depot and charge $4,000 worth of
materials at Home Depot during the same period and then turnaround and send you
$3,000 back?
Henry Amen: You're telling me someone would give you $7,000 in advance before
you even looked at it? I was never even in that house until the 15th. Because I never
even walked into that house—never—before the 15th.
Richard Joslin: Was there some type of a contract or...
Henry Amen: I ... I ... I ... I'm a diabetic and I'm going to the doctors ... and they
asked me to go disability because I can't walk without pain. I can't do anything ...
nobody is going to hire me for anything. What are they going to hire me for?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Does the County have anything else to say?
Henry Amen: I mean I don't understand what the payment has to do with the charge
on the 16th when he wired me on the 10th, and I was never in the house until the 15th. It
doesn't make sense.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: That's your statement?
Henry Amen: Yes, it's my statement.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Thank you, sir. Does the County have ...
Supervisor Crotts: Yes,we'd like to have Investigator Ruben Martinez come
forward.
Licensing Compliance Officer Ruben Martinez was sworn in.
Ruben Martinez: I would like to clarify some instances here. I responded to the
residence on the 16th after the person who was renting the properly—Krista Cole—had
called because she was concerned about the type of work that was being done by Mr.
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September 16,2020
Amen as the contractor. Upon my arrival, I made contact with two of his workers who
were there—Randy Smith and Saul Salas. They said they were working for Henry,
but Henry was not available—he was not at the property at the time. I made phone
contact with the property owner—Mr. Flanagan—who identified Mr. Amen as his
contractor. I told Mr. Flanagan that Mr. Amen did not have a license and he said he
was under the impression that he did have a license. He explained that he didn't have
a written contract but that he had a verbal contract with Mr. Amen and that Mr. Amen
had done work for him in the past. He told me he paid Mr. Amen in cash on one
occasion and wired money to him on another, as well as paying the Home Depot bill.
When I contacted Mr. Amen on the 16th, he said he was away and was doing a favor
for a friend and he agreed to meet with me at the property. I then explained to him
that was acting as a General Contractor. I stated that walls had been removed in the
bathroom and the plumbing had been disconnected. There was electrical work, as
well. Mr. Amen understood when I told him what he had to do to get a license
because he was not licensed. I gave him all the information concerning how to get a
license. I issued two Citations to him. Initially, I was going to give him three
Citations,but I told him I would "cut him a break." He was doing plumbing work,
electrical work, and he was acting as a General Contractor and working without
obtaining a permit. I gave him the two Citations and here we are today.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: So, your testimony—if I may just summarize—and not to
put words in your mouth, but I think I heard you say that the renter called the County
and said that Mr. Amen was a contractor?
Ruben Martinez: Yes,the renter called because she was concerned about the type of
work that was being done?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: And the workers at the site said the Mr. Amen was a
contractor?
Reuben Martinez: Correct.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: And then you spoke to the owner of the unit who also said
that Mr. Amen was a contractor?
Reuben Martinez: Correct. When I talked with Mr. Amen and I explained to him,
initially he was hesitant about coming back because of the tenant but he said the tools
at the property were his tools and he had to pick up the workers. I also verified with
one of the workers that he paid him $120 for that day for work done.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Okay.
Richard Joslin: That clarifies a lot.
Reuben Martinez: I think in the packet are copies of the wired money ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Correct.
Reuben Martinez: ... over$4,000 of money that was wired. In addition, Mr.
Flanagan said that he had given Mr. Amen two thousand dollars in cash when he was
here in Naples. Mr. Flanagan does not reside in Naples,but he has properties in
Naples.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Thank you, sir. And before he goes, Mr. White—do you
have any questions or comments?
Patrick White: Maybe not but I just want to make sure that the Respondent
understands he has the opportunity to ask any questions of the County's Investigator
that he may desire.
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September 16,2020
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Correct. Mr.Nolton?
Chairman Nolton: I do not have any questions.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Questions from any of the other Board members? [There
were none.] Mr. Amen, we heard your testimony and we heard the County's
testimony. You have the opportunity now to ask the County any questions that you
have.
Henry Amen: I want you to know the County never saw me over there and you're
saying that he got a worker for$120 who knows how to do the plumbing and the
electrical and everything? It—it just doesn't jell. It just doesn't. That means that he
got"Joe Blow"to do everything and it's going to work? I wasn't there. He had to
wait for hours for me to get there because I was at the doctor's. He does recall my
saying that. I was at the doctor's and then I was at Home Depot. I wasn't even—he
asked me out of courtesy to come down there and I did. Okay? I don't see why this
shouldn't be on the homeowner,Mr. Flanagan—whose father is a Supreme Court
Justice and whose grandfather was a Supreme Court Justice—who doesn't know
what's going on? Yeah!
Attorney Noell: Mr. Amen, listen to what I'm saying—now is your time to ask that
witness from the County any questions ...
Henry Amen: Okay ... okay ... this is going towards you—okay? The homeowner
should know better not to hire anyone without a license and then to send $9,000 to
someone way before hand to get—there's something wrong here. There's something
not jelling.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: You're making a statement. But you have an opportunity
now to ask the County ...
Henry Amen: The County never saw me work.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Excuse me, sir—please.
Henry Amen: Okay.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: The County has just said the renter told them you ...
Henry Amen: I wasn't there! [emphatically]
Vice Chairman Jerulle: ... let me finish, please. I'm sorry but let me finish. The
renter said that you were the contractor.
Henry Amen: I never said that.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: The workers said that you were the contractor and the owner
said that you were ...
Henry Amen: I never said ... hey ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: ... the contractor. May I ...
Henry Amen: Where is the paperwork? I never gave him any paperwork that said I
was a contractor.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: May I finish my statement!
Henry Amen: Okay.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: For the tenth time, let me finish before you speak. You
have testimony—they've all said that you're the contractor. Do you have any
questions for the County ...?
Henry Amen: I ... I ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: ... not a statement—do you have any questions?
Henry Amen: I want to know who said that and how did they ...
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September 16,2020
Vice Chairman Jerulle: He explained to you ...
Henry Amen: ... come up with that conclusion? Did I show them paperwork? Did I
show them anything that said I was a contractor? No. I showed no one nothing. I
didn't tell anyone I was a contractor—I didn't show anyone that I was a contractor—I
didn't tell anyone that I was a contractor. I was just doing a favor for a friend. Period.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: And that favor was tearing up the bathroom?
Henry Amen: I didn't tear it out—he had helpers.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Then whatever did you do?
Henry Amen: I—I went to Home Depot. And he knows it.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: And Home Depot—for what purpose?
Henry Amen: Mr. Flanagan wanted a couple of things from Home Depot. I went and
picked them up for him ... is that against the law?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Do you have any other statements or questions?
Henry Amen: I don't understand why it is all coming onto me. I'm the Average "Joe
Blow"who doesn't have any money and you're putting a$2,000 fine on me that I
can't afford. I have no money.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Okay. I understand. Any other questions?
Henry Amen: And the next time—it's going to be a felony? That's crazy—that's
insane ... to plead guilty for something like that.
Reuben Martinez: Can I say something?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Sir?
Ruben Martinez: He is correct—he told me he was at his doctor's office, but I did
not wait for hours. I was surprised when he was talking to me from Home Depot. In
his statement he also said he was there on the 15th—that he wasn't there on the day of
the 16th but, yet,he had to come and pick up the workers because he brought them out.
They said that he was there that day. The renter said that he was there on that day,but
he had to step out because he had a doctor's appointment. As I said, he was there—I
waited probably thirty minutes at most. The homeowner,Mr. Flanagan, is held
accountable and he said ...
Henry Amen: The homeowner had no idea that I was there.
Ruben Martinez: The homeowner was under the impression that you had a license.
But he's also facing issues with Code Enforcement because of what happened. So,
you're facing what you're facing today because you were working without a license.
Henry Amen: Hey, I wasn't there—and I wasn't working, and Mr. Flanagan gave me
money ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Mr. Amen your testimony is that you weren't there.
Henry Amen: I wasn't there—I gave my answer. No.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: You've said that. Are there any other questions for the
County?
Henry Amen: And I don't think the money—
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Sir—do you have a question for the County? [silence]No
other questions? Okay. Do you have any other testimony?
Henry Amen: No.
Supervisor Crotts: The County would like to ask the witness a question.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Okay.
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September 16,2020
Supervisor Crotts: Mr. Martinez,there is also a Citation for commencing work
without a permit. How was it determined that a permit was required?
Ruben Martinez: I went to the Building Official and showed him pictures of some of
the work that was done, and he said that it needed a permit.
Supervisor Crotts: Do you remember who you went to?
Ruben Martinez: The Chief Building Inspector, Fred Clum.
Supervisor Crotts: And Mr. Clum determined that a permit was required for the
work that you showed him in the photos?
Ruben Martinez: Correct.
Supervisor Crotts: Thank you.
Henry Amen: Can I say something? Do you need a building permit to rip out?
When you need to discover, do you need—how would you know if anything is wrong?
Do you need ...?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: He answered your question and the answer is "yes."
Henry Amen: To discover?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: When you do demolition, you need a building permit.
Henry Amen: For discovery?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Yes.
Henry Amen: To see what damage you have?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Yes.
Henry Amen: Any damage ... so, if you find damage—like black mold—you don't
go right to it? You just leave it there and call for a building permit and wait for a
building permit while people are living in the house—yes?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Sir, you are not a contractor.
Henry Amen: I understand that but ...
Vice Chairman Jerulle: If you were a contractor, you would know the answer to
that.
Henry Amen: I'm asking the question. If you saw black mold in a house—you don't
remove it—you just leave it while you building permit first?
Lyle Lantz: You would get a permit for demolition on an emergency basis. As much
as I bad mouth the Collier County Building Department greatly up and down,you can
get a building permit for that and its as close to instantaneous as you can get. Yes.
Henry Amen: I thought for discovery,you didn't need a permit.
Kyle Lantz: No.
Henry Amen: For discovery—just to start it?
Vice Chairman Jerulle: There are two different issues—one is discovery and one is
Henry Amen: He told me it was leaking in the bathroom—the Mexican one—so
what do you do for that? If someone tells you that something is leaking—what do you
do? You have to say I can't do it—I have to get a building permit?
Kyle Lantz: I thought you said you weren't there?
Henry Amen: That was his helper—his guy.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Okay. Anything else? Do we have a motion?
Kyle Lantz: I'll make a motion.
Patrick White: Mr. Chairman?
17
September 16,2020
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Yes, Mr. White?
Patrick White: Simply as a Point of Order, I would ask the Board's Attorney to give
us some guidance on how we are to evaluate what we've heard today and what options
we have under the Code.
Attorney Noell: Thank you, Mr. White. Kevin Noell, Attorney for the Contractors'
Licensing Board. First, as a Point of Order, if the hearing is done and there is no
further evidence or testimony,then maybe we could close out the hearing and I could
provide the advice that Mr. White requested.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: This is not a Public Hearing. This is not a Public Hearing.
Richard Joslin: This is a Citation.
Attorney Noell: If it's not a Public Hearing,then there's no need to close it—my
apologies. The options available—the presumption is that both Citations were issued
correctly, and the burden of proof is on the Violator to overcome, for example,to
prove that the Citations were issued in error or incorrectly. In certain situations,
obviously the Board knows if the violation has been abated prior to the hearing. In the
situation of an unlicensed contractor,the individual can apply for a license. I think the
deadline is within forty-five days after issuance,then the Board could reduce the
amount of the Citation from $1,000 to $300. That's not the case here. I think the
Citation amounts are for $1,000 each and the Board could certainly find the evidence
is sufficient to uphold the Citations.
Kyle Lantz: Do we still have the option to raise the Citation amount or is that not on
the table anymore?
Attorney Noell: I believe under Chapter 489, Section 127 of Florida Statutes, I think
you could increase it up to $2,000.
Kyle Lantz: Per Citation.
Attorney Noell: Yes, sir.
Kyle Lantz: Okay.
Attorney Noell: And I would ask Mr. Crofts as well—is that your understanding?
Supervisor Crotts: Correct.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Mr. White, does that answer your questions or concerns?
Patrick White: Absolutely and thank you for allowing it to be put on the record.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: Any questions or comments.
Chairman Nolton: No, no questions.
Kyle Lantz: I'll make a motion. I have five jobsites going right now and they are
actually working when I'm not there—so I don't buy that argument.
Kyle Lantz moved to approve upholding Citation Number 10624 and Citation
Number 10625 issued to Henry Amen, each in the amount of$1,000. Richard
Joslin offered a Second in support of the motion.
Discussion:
• Patrick White: We, over the years,have heard Respondents or Violators offer
their positions as to why the Citations should not be upheld. I do not recall an
instance, like today,where the arguments are nothing more than a challenge
and really not of any substance. So, I am obviously going to vote in favor of
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September I6,2020
the motion. I just wanted to put that on the record so that Mr. Amen
understands he is held to meet the burden of proof.
• Chairman Nolton: I would like to add onto that if I may. It has been so
poorly done that I would be in favor of increasing the fines if the rest of the
Board wants to make sure that Mr. Amen knows how he totally did not defend
his position at all.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: We have a motion and a second.
Richard Joslin: Kyle, do you want to amend your motion?
Kyle Lantz: I would not.
Vice Chairman Jerulle: The question was would the motion maker and the second
want to amend the motion and the response was, "no."
Vice Chairman Jerulle called for a vote on the motion. Carried unanimously, 6—0.
9. OLD BUSINESS:
(NONE)
10. PUBLIC HEARING:
(NONE)
NEXT MEETING DATE: WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 21, 2020 AT 9:00 AM
BCC Chambers, 3rd Floor—Administrative Building"F,
Government Complex, 3301 E. Tamiami Trail,Naples, FL
There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned at
10:00 AM by Order of the Vice Chairman.
COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS'
LICENSING BOARD
TERYJtULLE, V Chai man
The Minutes were approv d by the Chairman or Vice Chairman of the Contractors' Licensing Board
on . I 0 0( ,2020, (Check one) "as submitted" ()S 1 or "as amended" [ j
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