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CLB Minutes 01/17/2007 R January 17, 2007 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida January 17, 2007 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractor Licensing Board in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson Sydney Blum Michael Boyd Eric Guite' Glenn Herriman Lee Horn ( absent) Richard Joslin Ann Keller ( absent) William Lewis ALSO PRESENT: Patrick Neale, Attorney to the Board Robert Zachary, Assistant County Attorney Tom Bartoe, Licensing Compliance Officer Michael Ossorio, Contractor Licensing Supervisor Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: WEDNESDAY - JANUARY 17, 2007 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: November 2006 V. DISCUSSION: Fifth District Court ruling on felony convictions. VI. NEW BUSINESS: Russell J. Wright - Review of experience affidavits. Dennis J. Loughren - Review of citations/complaints from Charlotte Co. VII. OLD BUSINESS: VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS: CLB CASE #2007-01 Calvert N. Courtney, II D/B/A Brickstone Paver Designs, Inc. CLB CASE#2007 -02 Robert A. Mantua D/B/A Florida Suncoast Contractors, Inc. IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: February 21,2007 3101 E. Tamiami Trail Naples, FL, 34104 January 17, 2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio is Collier County employee of the year. Congratulations. Well deserved. MR. BLUM: Smile, Michael, it's okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Before we get the meeting started, the presentation is next Tuesday in this room, which I'm sure everyone will have the TV on or be here, one. And Lisa wants your parking spot. I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board. January 17th, 2007. Anyone who needs a -- wishes to make an appeal of this board will need a verbatim record of the proceedings herein, which is being taken. And I'd like to start with roll call with Mr. Lewis to my right. MR. LEWIS: William Lewis. MR. BLUM: Syd Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MR. BOYD: Michael Boyd. MR. GUITE': Eric Guite'. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And good morning to all of you. We should -- may have a couple coming in late. We do have a new board member to the other board members. If you'll notice down there at the bottom right above, Pat Neale, Glenn Herriman. And he should be here this morning. Mr. Bartoe, any additions or deletions to the minutes -- or the agenda, excuse me. MR. BARTOE: Good morning. For the record, Tom Bartoe, Collier County licensing compliance officer. Staff has nothing other than under approval of the minutes, it says November, 2006, and naturally that's November 16th meeting, which you all have a copy of. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And with that, there is -- Page 2 January 17, 2007 regarding the approval of the minutes, there was a mistake. You want to go ahead and bring that up? MR. GUITE': Yeah, I was not here on November 16th, I did not participate in the roll call, yet I'm in here on every vote up until the recess, where after the recess I was somehow excused. So I'd just like to let -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mike, was that you that left early? MR. BOYD: Right, that was me that left early. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. The correction was Eric wasn't here, Guite' was not here. But Michael Boyd did have to leave early, and that still left us with a quorum. Does that cover everything? MR. GUITE': That covers it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything else? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Entertain a motion to approve the minutes -- MR. LEWIS: So moved, Lewis. MR. BLUM: Second, Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- as amended. All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Discussion. Fifth district court ruling on felony convictions. Who's got that one? MR. OSSORIO: I do, Mr. Chairman. Good morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning. MR. OSSORIO: For the record, Michael Ossorio, Collier Page 3 January 17, 2007 County licensing supervisor. That is just a to-do list for me to give to you, let you know how we're conducting business in our office. That's a -- that is an appeal by an individual that was applying for a state general contracting license that was denied a license by DPR on the sole purpose that he was convicted of a felony charge. And obviously he was overruled. And I wanted you just to read that in your leisure. And it's something that we're looking into, just to make sure we follow policy and standards of governance 249. It's something you can read at your leisure. I just want to let you know how we're conducting business in our office pertaining to anyone convicted of a felony . We don't exclude them from -- we don't deny them a license or exclude them basing on the felony charge unless it's something to do with construction. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And that's in everybody's packet. So if you'd be sure to read this. Still have Charlie Crist as attorney general. They did spell his last name right. Any discussion on that matter? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: New business. Russell Wright, are you here? MR. WRIGHT: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would, sir, come up to this podium. I need to have you state your name and I'll have you sworn In. MR. WRIGHT: My name is Russell Wright. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, before we start, I want to let you know how Mr. Wright got to this process. Under the ordinance, we did adopt a new ordinance, which is 2006-46. That's something we're going to try to get to you next board meeting, I guess the codified version or just the stamped version. We just don't have that as of yet. Page 4 January 17, 2007 Mr. Wright has applied for an aluminum concrete license. He passed the exams. Unfortunately Mr. Wright, under the section of the Ordinance 2.5.2, I referred it to your office, licensing board, due to the fact that I was unable to show that he has experience in the business of aluminum or concrete. And Mr. Wright is here to explain his business activity up north and elaborate a little more detail to you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead and have him sworn in, if you would. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning, sir. MR. WRIGHT: Good morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We understand -- and just so we keep it defined, everything else is fine in your packet except the experience, so let's -- why don't you hit us with that. MR. WRIGHT: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right, sir? MR. WRIGHT: I, in dealing with Mike and the process, did not have any current experience as per your requirement. But I do have extensive experience beginning in 1981, actually, before that. My father was a master electrician and a general contractor, so I was basically working up through and with him until I went to college. And then in college I worked for Nelson Construction constructing a college building. And then after that in 1983 obtained a license in Queens, New York, and did construction on all sorts from '83 to '87. But as I explained to Mike, I didn't have any current expenence. And I apologize to Mike and to the board for listing references that noted I had experience, because I basically locally do not. But these contractors, Bill King and others, knew me from my business in condominium management, and knew that I had experience and knowledge about construction procedures, and Page 5 January 17,2007 basically they made reference to that. So my experience is not current, but as I explained it to Mike, it's quite extensive. And I showed Mike the original business certificate from the Borough of Queens. And I tried to contact Nelson Construction in Nashville, but Mr. Nelson retired in 1999 and the business is no longer active. I didn't have any other records or details, because it was so old I never thought I would have to go through this process and/or obtain a license. And so that just gives you a little bit of background. The main purpose for my obtaining the license is really to assist in the condominium business that I've operated since 1989. We had a tremendous problem in the Hurricane Wilma event and we could not get our condominium associations put back together. We were on a waiting list. And so we have carports and fascias and things like that unattended to for -- in fact, some of them are still not rectified. So the purpose of the license is basically assure that the condominiums that we represent in the county get speedy service. MR. JOSLIN: Just for the record, I'd like to just make a note that I know Mr. Wright very well. I've done work with him and for him for the past four or five years now and have always had good success with what he's done and how he's paid and how he's taken care of his business that he has currently now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let me ask some questions, because I'm going to put you through the ringer. Mainly because I'm sure every property manager would like to have all of the licenses they can get ahold of for the next hurricane. Why do we have affidavits in here that are scratched out and say not true? Did you perjure yourself on the application? MR. WRIGHT: No, I didn't. I didn't make any statement on the application. That's what I was explaining. The gentleman that made comments about my experience, just like Rick did, are familiar with me as a person knowledgeable with experience. And not having any Page 6 January 17, 2007 other option through the process, you know, I asked them to make statements. Each one of these contractors has seen me on the job, showing and speaking, and I hate to say supervising, but basically overseeing the work and making sure it's been done right. So they -- for example, Mr. King has done some soffit work for us. Mr. Kavaky has done some carport repairs and so forth. And I've met with these contractors on-site and have basically argued with them, told them no, you're not doing this right, I want the pitch to be -- et cetera. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, okay. But let's -- that's not what you turned in. I've got three verifications here that are obviously all the same handwriting. They're all notarized by the same individual. Mr. Ossorio, let me turn to you. You guys obviously checked these out. MR.OSSORIO: Yeah, we did. We made some phone calls and we did talk to his references, and the references say just what Mr. Wright is telling you, that he's a good property manager, but they have no direct knowledge of his construction experience, other than he was a superintendent for a condominium. This is a case where the aluminum concrete -- this is probably one of the toughest -- I can honestly say, to be a contractor in this town that is the toughest license to conduct. Only because if you make a mistake, you're going to eat the whole profit. Obviously maybe Mr. Wright is not going go out and build a pool cage, maybe he's going to work only for the association, but in broad terms we have to make sure not only that an individual has to take the exam but he has also demonstrated to us satisfactorily his 24 months direct knowledge of working with aluminum and term concrete to conduct the business necessary to work in Collier County. And unfortunately Mr. Wright has not demonstrated to that at this time. Page 7 January 17, 2007 And that license is a license that causes us problems due to the fact that -- you know, it's like almost being a roofing contractor, you estimate wrong, you're going to eat the product. So that's something that we -- we're doing things differently now. So I have nothing else to say about that particular item other than we did check his references and the references did say to me that they can't directly support his claim that he has, you know, done work for the company, other than supervise and making sure the work got done properly, which any homeowner will do on his property. I might supervise Sunrise Pools, doesn't mean I can be a pool contractor. And I could pass the exam, doesn't mean I have direct knowledge of how to build it. (Mr. Herriman enters the boardroom.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, coming back to you, Mr. Wright, you still haven't satisfied me that you have the experience in everything that you've said. You've been around construction, but I haven't heard where you specifically have the experience. MR. WRIGHT: Well, I have a business license, if you look in the package, that was issued in 1983 for Rusco Contracting, which was a contracting business that I established in Queens, New York. And again, my experience is from that time period, from 1983 to 1987. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let me find that. MR. WRIGHT: And I gave the original copy of the license to Michael that was embossed with the Queens County Clerks Office. MR.OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, just to further -- yeah, I do see that. That does make perfect sense. But the board's always taken the stance, I could be a general contractor, it doesn't mean I'm going to step into this licensing board arena and open up an aluminum concrete business. You're going to have to show experience. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We all know general contractors, Page 8 January 17, 2007 some are more involved than others. Some just make telephone calls. Sorry, Bill. But you know exactly what I'm talking about. Okay. Where's this license? I can't find it in the packet. Oh, that one, okay. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead, Bill. MR. LEWIS: For the public and the board's information, our newest member, Glenn Herriman, has arrived, if you'd like to introduce him. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning, Glenn Herriman. Good to have you with us. Glenn is a consumer, correct? Lived here in Naples how long? MR. HERRIMAN: 21 years. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thrilled to have you. MR. HERRIMAN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You'll have fun. MR. BARTOE: And I explained the pay to him, and he seemed quite happy with it. (Laughter.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the checks are usually a little late. MR. JOSLIN: Or in the mail. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, going back to this. Bill, you have any comment? MR. LEWIS: Only one. I'm ready to vote. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you? MR. LEWIS: I certainly am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You feel good with the Rusco Contracting? MR. LEWIS: I do not. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Wright, I'm going to have to go along with that same thought in mind. I've known you for quite some time. I Page 9 January 17, 2007 have never seen you in the contracting state where you have done the work yourself. And I don't really think at this moment that the board is ready to approve the fact that we can generate a license to you without the experience, even though you have passed the test. There's no proof that you really can do the job. And like Mr. Ossorio says, an aluminum license is a very difficult one to handle. So I guess I'm ready to vote also. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any comment, Mr. Wright? Anything else you want to present? MR. WRIGHT: Not at this time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anybody have a motion? MR. BLUM: I make a motion that we deny the applicant's request. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second. MR. LEWIS: Second, Lewis. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've got to tell you, what may look like frivolous -- a frivolous requirement that some counties just check off, we don't do here. And that's really because of this department, the new lead they've taken. With the -- the licenses are extremely serious in this county. Page 10 January 17,2007 That's why we don't have that many cases that come before us, because people will protect their license, they know how difficult they are to get. But if you can come up with something else that really shows the expenence. Mr. Neale, you want to the weigh in at all? MR. NEALE: No, this board holds very closely to its ordinance, which requires relevant experience in the trade during the time period, so -- it's got to be recent experience. MR. WRIGHT: I respect the decision. I'm disappointed, obviously, but you have to feel what you do is right in this case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wish you well. MR. WRIGHT: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And thanks for coming. Next we have Dennis Loughren. Are you present? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Dennis is not here. By the way, while we're at this, Tom, could we get Maggie to print up another list of meetings for 2007? MR. BARTOE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: With the dates. I don't know if any of you guys use this, but I use the heck out of it. Because I'll go ahead and mark all my calendars for the year. MR. BARTOE: I will do that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, thank you. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, this review of citations and complaints from Charlotte County, one of the things we actually look into, Charlotte County's issued a letter, it's like a letter of reciprocity. This tells you who this contractor is, and if there's any complaints from consumers. And there have been multiple complaints -- read your packet. But under that ordinance, that gets referred to you as well. Page 11 January 17, 2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This Dennis Loughren-- MR. OSSORIO: Yes. And if he does show up, I'll notify the board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does he have to show up for us to do anything? MR. NEALE: I would say so. MR. JOSLIN: Table it for right now or let it go. MR. BLUM: Is he licensed here in Collier, Michael? MR. OSSORIO: No. He has applied for a license. One of the things about getting a license in Collier County -- there is three things: One, you have to show experience; two, you have to have credit; and three, you have to pass the exam. He has passed the exam in Charlotte County. And we accepted that exam score -- some testing from Thomson Prometric. But as he was filling out the application, we noted in his packet that he had some complaints from consumers in Charlotte County for building code issues. And that's something that disturbs our office and we refer to you, and you make those calls. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I appreciate it. Old business, there is none. Let's go right into public hearings. Calvert Courtney, are you present? Okay. And -- with Brickstone Pavers. County's going to do this case. Who's going to do it? Okay. Let me explain to you how these proceedings -- these hearings go. We will start with an opening statement; not a presentation of evidence, but just an opening statement, kind of get us on track from the county. And then you'll give us an opening statement as to what you're going to be attesting. Then the county will present their evidence to include calling of witnesses. You will be able to cross-examine or ask witnesses questions when the county is finished. Page 12 January 17,2007 This is a quasi-judicial hearing. Doesn't follow the courtroom procedures that you see on television. We do accept hearsay. And then once that has taken place, the county will make their closing argument, you'll make yours. Then we close the hearing and you listen to our deliberations up here. But the hearing is closed. You got it? MR. COURTNEY: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What I need for you to do, if you would, Mr. Courtney, is to come up to -- let's just do this now. State your name and I'll have you sworn in. MR. COURTNEY: Calvert Newton Courtney, II. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. You can go ahead and sit down for a minute, if you want. If someone would introduce the file as Exhibit 1. MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Chairman, the county would like to introduce Exhibit A, what's marked Exhibit A in this case, if there's no objection, into evidence at this time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. So done. Good morning. How are you? Go ahead and state your name and I'll have you sworn in as well. MR. WUHRER: For the record, Andy Wuhrer, contractor licensing and compliance officer. (Speaker was duly sworn.) Page 13 January 17, 2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning, Mr. Wuhrer. MR. WUHRER: Good morning, gentlemen. This particular case with Mr. Courtney commenced with a contract that was agreed to and signed on September 7th in the amount of$1,500 (sic). A deposit was given to Mr. Courtney of $5,200 by the homeowner, Mr. Ginn. The contract itself was taken by Mr. Courtney for whatever reason to be reviewed, then later returned to the homeowner. And with a discussion this morning with Mr. Courtney, he thought it was returned. Mr. Ginn does not have that copy, so he does not physically have the copy. The condition was for the association, Mr. Ginn's association, to review the plans that would have been submitted prior to approval before the work began. But the board states that -- as you can see, the board states that that was never returned to the board, so it was ultimately denied. Mr. Ginn tried many times to contact Mr. Courtney to return his deposit. Occasionally he was able to get through to him, more often than not not, and the deposit was not returned. And of course there was no materials purchased for that particular job as well. I spoke with Mr. Courtney, which he will explain later that he had had the materials from prior jobs that were available to use as the material for that work. I even acted as intermediary going back and forth with Mr. Courtney trying to get this resolved without him having to come before the board. And one thing, we were not able to get the monies together or whatever to resolve this thing. So that's primarily why we're here today. The county has Mr. Courtney's license presently on hold due to the fact that there was a citation issued prior. And Mr. Courtney did pay the citation. However, the check was non-sufficient and so it Page 14 January 17,2007 remained on hold. And that was the prior reason for other investigations to be commenced and Mr. Courtney put -- other complaints as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Was the citation relevant to this case? MR. WUHRER: Only to show that we have looked into Mr. Courtney on other occasions, and that one was required a citation to be issued. The only thing. One of the things that has happened subsequent to that is that during proposals that were issued to Mr. Courtney, he did show the customers licenses. And those licenses, because they were on hold, are invalid. And so the license that he showed was not a valid license. Part of what's proceeding in the future is that -- and I will explain that in a moment. Subsequent I've had conversations, and I had one this morning with Mr. Courtney, who he will explain he was going to make attempts to get all these things straightened out. But by Mr. Courtney's own admission, there's five more of these cases that will come before the board; one that I have presently here, and the other complaints I physically don't have at this time. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Wuhrer, this is only opening statements for the charge that we're charging, so let's just wrap it up. MR. WUHRER: Sure. And I am through at that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Courtney, would you like to say something? MR. COURTNEY: I would. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I want to make a clarification on the opening statement. Andy Wuhrer noted that it was a $1,500 deposit -- or agreement. It was actually 15,000. MR. JOSLIN: Could I ask one quick question also? In the statement that he made, there was a contract signed, too, which am I missing something in the packet or is there a physical contract to look at? Page 15 January 17,2007 MR. WUHRER: No, sir, there is not. MR. JOSLIN: There is no contract? MR. WUHRER: No, sir. MR. JOSLIN: This was all done verbally. MR. WUHRER: There was a contract that had been written. And because this was done in what Mr. Courtney called vignettes, several ways to go ahead and do the job, the contract was brought back to be rewritten with the correct vignette attached, and it was going to be submitted back to Mr. Ginn. Mr. Ginn states he does not have that returned copy. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Courtney, just opening statements. MR. COURTNEY: I'm not exactly sure what I'm supposed to say at this point. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let us know, give us an idea of what your defense is going to be. MR. COURTNEY: Everything said in regard to Barry Ginn is true. We took the money and we didn't do the work. There are some extenuating circumstances that are almost bizarre. Mr. Ginn is not alone in this. We have gone from 31 people to six. We're not doing any paver brick work. We're harvesting trees on a 30-acre nursery for meat on the table. I'm a fourth generation native Floridian. I'm not going to not pay anybody. And I have returned to date over $80,000 in deposits, some through this department, some customers have chosen attorneys, some have chosen other avenues. I don't intend to defraud, or there was no intent to harm Mr. Ginn. I wanted to do the work. I don't advertise referral basis, the way that I get my business. I've had loss of leadership from such things as time in the penitentiary, fatal motorcycle accidents. I lost my management team all at a very Page 16 January 17, 2007 short amount of time. I was contractually obligated and I have been fighting to survive since then. There are a lot of details behind that, but I'm a homeowner in this community and married with a family here, and I'm not going to do anything but pay the people what I owe. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, thank you. Mr. Wuhrer, go ahead and present your case. MR. WUHRER: Thank you. I would like to call Mr. Ginn, have him explain what his position is on the case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ginn, if you would come forward to that podium, sir. If you would, state your name and I'll have you sworn in also. MR. GINN: Yes, I'm Barry Winfield Ginn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Welcome, by the way. (Speaker was duly sworn.) MR. GINN: I was getting a haircut one day, and I don't have a lot of hair to cut, and I met a guy by the name of Chuck Wiley, and he was talking about brick pavers. And I just happened to be in the market for brick pavers, and I said, you know, here's my phone number. And he gave me his phone number. And about 20 phone calls later, I got a call -- Mr. Courtney called me up and just kept calling me. And he came over, looked, said my driveway was ugly -- I didn't disagree with him -- and said that he was in the business and that he and Mr. Wiley did a lot of business together and all this kind of stuff. And what's kind of embarrassing about this is my background. I've got 33 years in checking people out on jobs, and to have myself in front you guys today -- to make a note, the contract was for 13,000, not 15,000. The vignettes that he was talking about, there were several of them. One was for 5,000, one was for 7,000 that I had agreed upon. And then there was several other ones. Page 1 7 January 17, 2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What do you mean by a vignette? Explain that. Is this additional work? MR. GINN: This is what Mr. Courtney gave me as proposals for the front and the back. The front of the house was going to be 5,200, the back of the house was going to be 7,000. And then there was a vignette for landscaping, lakeside sitting area, things like this. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All of this totaling 13 -- MR. GINN: No, it was additional monies. But the job that I agreed upon, because one, I wanted to take it to the ARB, because I'm familiar with ARB's. I wanted to get this approved first. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Architectural Review Board. You live at Longshore Lake? MR. GINN: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All single-family homes? MR. GINN: Yes. And they gave me basically an approval with some exceptions. And one thing, they wanted to know about landscaping. And I gave Mr. Courtney a check on 9/7/06. He said the work would start approximately the first week of October, second week of October. I had 30 days to get back to the ARB with exactly what he was going to do. In the interim, we did write a contract. And I know I'm under oath, so I'm careful to say this. I travel a lot, so I'm in and out. I believe that I signed a contract with the intent that Mr. Courtney would have the revisions -- some revisions to the contract and then brought back to me. I never received that contract. I have a preliminary contract in a proposal form. So everything that I did, I didn't do just verbally. I did get him to sign as I was giving him my $5,200 check. It says, addendum to the contract: All irrigation, plants, lighting will be put back as it was before and in the neighbors' yards. Contract will warranty all plants, grass and therefore remove and put back and Page 18 January 17, 2007 fill, refill, or a full refund if ARB does not accept or approve this proposal. And this was signed 9/7/06. At the time I gave him a check for $5,200, because he said that there were other people trying to sell the material and, you know, it was getting close to the holidays and they wanted their commissions and all this kind of stuff. Gave me the impression that I was dealing with a fairly large company. I did ask him for his license. I did ask him for his workers' comp and general liability , which I gave Andy a copy of it. I don't have a copy of it. But after I got back and he had not started the work on October the 12th, I wrote him a letter saying I'd had no -- I hadn't heard from him and I'd like my deposit back, because he told me at any time if I was dissatisfied with his service that all's he had to do was call his accountant and it would take 24 hours and I would have my check back. So on October 12th I wrote him a letter because I couldn't get in touch with him by phone at his office/home or his cell phone. October 17th I wrote him another letter. October 20th I notified him that the ARB had withdrawn my approvals based on none of the information being followed up. Mr. Courtney told me that he would bring me a check. I never heard from him. Then he said the reason why he didn't bring me a check is I had to sign a release. And I said well, bring the release and I'll sign it, just to get rid of you. Then we've had several phone calls. Even to this weekend I was going to take a Mazda truck, you know, as collateral until he could pay me back. And usually in a case like this -- and I've been on commission before also. And I even told Courtney this this morning, usually I would already have pressed charges against Mr. Courtney. He's one of those guys that, you know, he's a Calamity Jane, I recon. Page 19 January 17, 2007 And I was willing -- on Saturday night I was taking my kids to a hockey game, and he called me as I was pulling into the arena, and I said, you bring me the title, you show some form, you know, of some credibility, you know, that your intent is to pay me back, I'll go before the commission and say that. So far, I have not seen the title, nor have I seen the truck, nor have I seen a check for $5,200, nor have I seen a release. You know, he said he lost all his crew. Well, you know, I'm sorry, I don't feel sorry for that. I get up every hour, then my wife gets up every hour. My son has a heart rate of 23 beats per minute when he's sleeping. We all have problems. He's got my $5,200, and I think he did it on a fraudulent basis. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any questions, Andy? MR. WUHRER: No, I think that pretty much covers my long-winded opening statement case in chief. But everything that Mr. Ginn has stated is what I have as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Courtney, do you have any questions of Mr. Ginn? MR. COURTNEY: I do not. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I have one question. Mr. Ginn, how many days has it been since you wrote that check out as of today? MR. GINN: September 9th. MR. OSSORIO: How many days would that be? MR. GINN: Anybody got a calendar? MR. WUHRER: Over 100 days. MR. GINN: It's been over 100 days. MR. ZACHARY: I've got a question. I just want to show Mr. Ginn what we have in the packet, E-8. Is that the check or a copy of the check that you wrote to Mr. Courtney? MR. GINN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What he just showed him was a copy Page 20 January 17, 2007 of the check that's in the packet. He identified that that is the check that -- he did write a copy of the check. MR. WUHRER: Yes, and that was written on the 7th of September, just to keep the dates accurate. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One question to you, Mr. Ginn: Have you suffered any other financial harm besides the 5,200? MR. GINN: Just time and effort. MR. ZACHARY: I've got a couple more questions, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ginn, was any work done at all on your property? MR. GINN: No, sir. MR. ZACHARY: Any materials delivered? MR. GINN: The samples that he brought before I gave him the check. MR. ZACHARY: That's it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you gotten the driveway done since? MR. GINN: No, sir. I put the house on the market. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Thank you very much. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Ginn, before you sit down. Question: Were there any fees associated or any application dues for the ARB? MR. GINN: No, sir. MR. LEWIS: And any review costs anywhere else, any permitting costs or anything? MR. GINN: No. MR. LEWIS: And to the best of your knowledge, do you have any liens filed against the residence? MR. GINN: Yes, I have a -- I haven't checked. But, I mean, he never did any work, and there was -- I don't think -- you know, that's a good question. I think I may check just to -- just to double check. I don't see -- MR. LEWIS: But at this point you don't know of any posted Page 21 January 17, 2007 ones? MR. GINN: No. And I certainly haven't gotten any notification. MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Chairman, I've got one question for Mr. Wuhrer. Were there any permits pulled or attempted to be pulled on this proj ect? MR. WUHRER: No, sir, the type of work that was going to be done did not require a permit. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Fourth floor when you leave here. MR. GINN: What's that for? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's where you can check. MR. GINN: Okay. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just go up one flight of stairs. That's all, Mr. Ginn, thank you. Everybody finished? MR. WUHRER: We do have some recommendations. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll get to those later. Mr. Courtney, if you would, come up, please. Do you have any witnesses you're going to call? MR. COURTNEY: I do not. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Then go ahead and present your defense. MR. COURTNEY: I really didn't know that this was the process. I don't really have a defense. I kind of explained it in the opening statement. We have an awful lot of assets in the form of skit steer loaders and trucks and an awful lot of very expensive vegetation, and we're liquidating that. And we intend to pay everybody. I personally, when I came Naples from Manatee County, was well-to-do. I have $1,900,000 in this business and I'm 51 years old. And it basically is my future, my life. I have a new wife. The loss of this, I died 1,000 deaths over it. I took a -- I think in Page 22 January 17, 2007 retrospect a wrong perspective when I lost everybody and I couldn't do the work. I looked at it as closing the doors on a bank when there's a run on it. I really believed that I could turn the comer and find replacements and do the work. And I neglected people like Barry Ginn. And there's another customer in here as well that I did that for in the same way. When I look back on it, it was a bad decision. At the time it seemed appropriate. I regret that. I regret that I'm in front of you today. I intend to pay everybody, and I have the assets to do that. It's a question of time. I currently am waiting on a large check from a contractor in Lake City to clear, and Mr. Ginn will get his money. We're down to literally nothing -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you are liquidating the business? MR. COURTNEY: If you tell me today that I'm through in this business, then I have no alternatives. I don't have any skills in my life but this, that's all I've ever done. But I guess the reason I said that is that I have the capacity to pay these people, and I've proven that I will. I've paid a lot of money back in good faith to people that did not go this route. I don't intend to leave anybody stuck. I would love to stay in the business. If I could be given a short amount of time to satisfy these people. I don't know what to do about their inconvenience, I don't know how to fix that. I've paid a price. I have a very dear friend that is forever impaired, that was hit on a motorcycle, that was a crew leader. My son made a bad decision, is now 11 years in the penitentiary. He was key in my organization. It goes on and on. I lost my key people. I didn't contract with these people and take the money and go to Las Vegas. I'm 51 and I'm out digging trees on Sunday morning with the crew, with what little I've got left to sell anything that we can do to create the cash flow. Page 23 January 17, 2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How long have you been in business here? MR. COURTNEY: In this town, since 2002. But not under the paver license. We added the hardscape to the landscape back -- I think I formed Brickstone Pavers in October of '05. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are your trucks black? MR. COURTNEY: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Confusing you with someone else. MR. GUITE': What do you call a short amount of time to pay back these homeowners? MR. COURTNEY: If you talk about the entire pool of them, which again you have knowledge of some, and some you don't, and I'll be glad to give you the information. I'm not trying to hide anything. Thirty days on the entire pool, five days on Barry Ginn. MR. GUITE': What kind of money is in the entire pool? MR. COURTNEY: Probably $72,000. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See, here's the problem I have with that. I've sat on this board for 18 years now. If you were going to do that, you would have done it before today. I've never seen one person get an extra 30 or 60 days and pull it out. MR. COURTNEY: Mr. Dickson, I understand that statement. Maybe one of the differences is is that I have no mortgages on anything. I have 24-foot flatbeds and skid steers and trailers that are very -- they can go liquid. I have some real estate. That will take time in this market. But I have the ability to pay these, as well as some revenues and receivables from 2,000 oak trees that I've sold and harvested. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You would have done it before today. MR. GUITE': Are you still engaging in contracting? Are you still signing contracts? MR. COURTNEY: No, sir. MR. GUITE': So if we took your license, it really wouldn't make Page 24 January 17, 2007 a difference anyway. MR. COURTNEY: If you gave it back and I payed the people that were owed, I would love to stay in the business. I have good knowledge in that. But I'm not doing anything currently. That's why the cash flow stopped. Whether -- Mr. Dickson, whether you take the license or not, the people are going to get paid. I mean, I've got to live in this community. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It just shifts it from this room to a civil action is all it does. Anything else you want to present? MR. COURTNEY: No, sir, I don't have anymore. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anyone have any questions of him? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Closing statement, Mr. Wuhrer. MR. WUHRER: Thank you. As the board can see, Mr. Courtney's an extremely amenable guy, and we've always found him to be that. There's been some bad choices made, and I think which he'll agree. On his own admission there's five more coming in of these accounts, which he totals up to 72,000. I have another customer here observing the meeting. I have another $3,800 there. So I think by trying to maybe catch up each customer, we're exacerbating the problem, because we're just adding more of these default contracts on top of each other. I would like to see him catch it up, but it doesn't appear as though that's going to happen. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What is -- can I do recommendations now? MR. NEALE: Of what? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: County recommendations. MR. NEALE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Penalty phase. Got you. Page 25 January 17, 2007 Okay, Mr. Wuhrer, any closing statements -- I mean -- Mr. Wuhrer, I'm sorry, Mr. Courtney, any closing statements? MR. COURTNEY: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have any questions? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a motion to close the public hearing? MR. GUITE': I'll make a motion to close. MR. BLUM: Can I ask one question of Mr. Wuhrer? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sure. MR. BLUM: How many total complaints has the county registered against this contractor? MR. WUHRER: Over the last year, I can't really be sure. The only thing I can tell you, with his own admissions is those five and this one here and the one that we're looking at now, there's at least seven. MR. BLUM: At least seven in a period of 12 months? MR. WUHRER: Yes. MR. BLUM: And all of them have to do with taking money and not doing any work? MR. WUHRER: Not necessarily. They all have to do with taking money and having done some, a little or none. MR. BLUM: Were permits pulled on any of them? MR. WUHRER: No. MR. BLUM: No permits pulled on anything, some had some work done, and we're talking a 12-month period of potentially fraudulent activity. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Stay on this case, though. I've got a motion to close public hearing. Did I get a second? MR. COURTNEY: Mr. Dickson, may I say something? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you come back to the podium. MR. NEALE: Mr. Dickson, he can make a closing statement. Page 26 January 17, 2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I asked him ifhe wanted to, and he said no. MR. COURTNEY: I hadn't heard Mr. Blum's statement. Some of those complaints were timeliness of the completion. When we lost the crews, the process slowed. I can think of three of those that were as a result of timeliness. They're completed and they're beautiful and the customers are great referral sources. So they weren't all just the same issue. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, gotcha. Do we want to close now? MR. GUITE': I'll make a motion to close. MR. JOSLIN: Second, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing. All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It is closed. What you will hear now is our deliberations. We may call on one of you. First thing we'll do is whether or not you're guilty of the charge. And with that, I'm open to discussion. MR. NEALE: Well, let me do my thing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Always got to get the legalese in here. MR. NEALE: Now that the hearing's closed, I'd like to just Page 27 January 17, 2007 address some of the issues that the board has to undertake, particularly for Mr. Herriman's benefit, since we have a new member on the board. In its deliberations, the board shall ascertain that fundamental fairness and due process have been afforded to the respondent. However, the formal Rules of Evidence, as set out in Florida Statutes, shall not apply. The board shall consider solely evidence presented at this hearing in consideration of this matter. The board shall exclude from its deliberations irrelevant, immaterial, and cumulative testimony. It shall admit and consider all other evidence of a type commonly relied upon by a reasonably prudent person in the conduct of their affairs. This is whether or not the evidence so admitted would be admissible in a court of law or equity. As noted, the hearsay may be used to explain or supplement other evidence. However, by itself it is not sufficient to support a finding in this or any other case, unless it would be admissible over objection in civil court. The standard of proof in this type of case, where the respondent may lose his privileges to practice his profession, is that the evidence presented by the complainant must prove the complainant's case in a clear and convincing manner. The burden of proof on the complainant is a larger burden than the preponderance of evidence standard set for a normal civil case. The standard established for sanctions, other than those affecting the license, is that of a preponderance of the evidence, however. The standard and evidence are to be weighed solely as to the charges set out in the complaint as Ordinance 90-105, Section 4.1.8.1 -- and that is in your packets -- that the contractor fulfilled to -- fails to fulfill his contractual obligations to a customer, because of inability, refusal or neglect to pay all creditors for material furnished or work or services performed in the operation of the business for which he is Page 28 January 17, 2007 licensed under any of the following circumstances. And he's charged with Subsection B: The contractor has abandoned a customer's job, and the percentage of completion is less than the percentage of the total contract price paid to the contractor as of the time of the abandonment, unless the contractor is entitled to retain such funds under the terms of the contract or refunds the excess funds within 30 days after the date the job is abandoned. In order to support a finding that the respondent is in violation of the ordinance, the board must find facts to show the violations were actually committed by the respondent. The facts must show to a clear and convincing standard the legal conclusion that the respondent was in violation of the relevant sections of the ordinance. These charges are the only ones the board may decide upon, as these are the only ones that the respondent has had the opportunity to prepare a defense. Damages must be directly related to those charges. They may not be for matters not related. The decision made by the board shall be stated orally at this hearing, and is effective upon being read by the board. The respondent, if found in violation, has certain appeal rights to this board, the courts and the state Construction Industry Licensing Board as set out in the ordinance and in Florida Statutes and Rules. If the board is unable to issue a decision immediately following the hearing because of questions of law or other matters of such a nature that a decision may not be made at this hearing, the board may withhold its decision until a subsequent decision. The board shall vote upon the evidence presented on all areas, and if it finds the respondent in violation, adopt the administrative complaint, Exhibit A. The board may also make -- shall also make findings of fact and conclusions of law in support of the charges set out in the administrative complaint. Page 29 January 17,2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a question for you first. Can a contractor abandon a verbal contract that never started? MR. NEALE: He took the money. MR. GUITE': How many days is abandonment? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I understand, the taking of the money was the consideration. We have no written contract but we have testimony to the -- MR. NEALE: There's testimony that both parties agreed. MR. JOSLIN: When does abandonment start? MR. NEALE: Well, according to our ordinance, it's really ifhe has walked away and not come back within 30 days, basically. MR. JOSLIN: Thirty days of what time frame? MR. NEALE: Basically the time the money is paid. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: State statute also defines that. Because if you take more than the 10 percent rule, take more than 10 percent of the contract, which he did, and don't pull a permit within 30 days or start the job within 90 days, that's prima facie evidence of a felony of fraud. MR. NEALE: The presumption of abandonment in our ordinance is if the contractor terminates the proj ect without just cause or fails to notify the owner in writing of the termination of the contract and basis for same or fails to perform work for 90 consecutive days without just cause and no said notice to the owner. So there's three tests. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I just wanted to clear up the issue, in case -- MR. GUITE': So does he have 30 days beyond the 90 days in order to refund his money? MR. NEALE: No. Because the -- MR. GUITE': Or 30 days beyond the 30 days? MR. NEALE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: State statute is 90 days for jobs that Page 30 January 17, 2007 require a permit and 30 days for jobs that do not require a permit. Discussion, gentlemen? MR. BLUM: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. BLUM: One of the things that trouble me quite a lot is that from Andy Wuhrer. His license was on hold and he took the check. He had no reasonable expectation of pulling a permit because he knew full well his license was on hold. It's flat out fraud. He had no business taking a check, he had no business writing a contract. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's stay with this case. MR. BLUM: That's the case. He took the money without a license. MR. LEWIS: Clarification, Mr. Blum, there was no permit required for this work. MR. BLUM: Oh, that's right. He couldn't sign a contract with his license on hold, and he knew that. MR. OSSORIO: Well, this contract was dated back in September. I don't know if Andy is going to contest to the fact that in September that check was issued and a bad check was issued to the county . I'm not sure, and I don't think he's going to contest to that fact. I don't know when he wrote the check to the Board of County Commissioners, and then we put him on hold for insufficient funds. I can't remember, was it September, October? It could have been January, I'm not sure. Courtney can maybe elaborate on that ifhe wants to. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's not pertinent to this case. We have enough evidence on this case to address it and decide it without going down that road, per the facts provided in testimony. Okay, more discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hello? Page 31 January 17, 2007 MR. BLUM: Well, my point just was that it goes to intent, and I just wanted to make that. My point was that it would go intent that his license was on hold, and now we're not sure of the timing, that's -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We've had full admission here, so it's just a matter of what you guys want to do with it. Do I hear a motion? MR. GUITE': I'll make a motion to find him guilty on abandonment. And I don't really know, do we have the authority to do anything more than that? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, right now we're just doing the charge itself. So that's all I want you to go. We'll do the penalty phase next. MR. GUITE': I make a motion to find him guilty on abandonment. MR. JOSLIN: I'll second the motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There's seven of us now. Excuse me for just as minute, I've got to read this. Board of Collier County Commissioners, Collier County, Florida is the petitioner versus Calvert N. Courtney, II, d/b/a Brickstone Paver Designs, Incorporated, Case No. 2007-01, License No. 29639. Page 32 January 17, 2007 Administrative complaint -- or order. This cause came on for public hearing before the Contractor Licensing Board on January 17th, 2007 for consideration of the administrative complaint filed against Calvert N. Courtney, II. Service of complaint was made by certified mail and personal delivery in accordance with Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105 as amended. The board, having heard testimony under oath -- sounded like I was from Boston for a minute -- received evidence and heard arguments -- I'm not. Respective to all appropriate matters thereupon issues its findings of fact, conclusions of law and order of the board as follows: Findings of fact: That Calvert N. Courtney, II is holder of record of Certificate of Competency No. 29639. Number two: That the Board of Collier County Commissioners of Collier County, Florida is the complainant in this matter. Number three: That the board has jurisdiction of the person of the respondent and that Calvert N. Courtney, II was present at the public hearing and was not represented by counsel. Number four: All notices required by Collier County Ordinance No. 91-105, as amended, have been properly issued. Number five: The allegations of fact as set forth in the administrative complaint are approved, adopted and incorporated herein by references of findings of fact. Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: All right. Now that the board has found the respondent in violation the board must consider and order sanctions for certain parameters set out in the Collier County ordinance and Florida Statutes. It must decide these sanctions based on these matters. And they're set out in the codified ordinance in 22-203, and in the revised non-codified ordinance at 4.3.5. Page 33 January 17, 2007 The sanctions available to the board are: Number one, revocation of the respondent's Certificate of Competency; Number two, a suspension of the Certificate of Competency; Number three, a denial of issuance or renewal of Certificate of Competency; Number four, probation of a reasonable length not to exceed two years, during which time the contractor's activities shall be under the supervision of the contractor licensing board and/or participation in any duly accredited program of continuing education. Probation may be revoked for cause by the board at a hearing notice to consider said purpose. Number five: Restitution. Number six: A fine not to exceed $10,000 per violation. Number seven: Public reprimand. Number eight: A reexamination requirement. Number nine: Denial of the issuance of permits or acquiring issuance of permits with conditions. And number 10: Reasonable legal and investigative causes. In setting out these sanctions, the board shall consider the following factors: Number one: The gravity of the violation. Number two: The impact to the violation. Number three: Any actions taken by the violator to correct the violation. Number four: Any previous violations committed by the violator. Number five: Any other evidence presented at the hearing by the parties relevant as to the sanction that is appropriate for the case given its nature. The board also must issue a recommended penalty for the state Construction Industry Licensing Board. The penalties recommended Page 34 January 17,2007 to the state may include a recommendation for no further action or a recommendation of suspension, revocation or restriction of the registration or a fine to be levied by the state board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Gentlemen -- oh, first, Mr. Wuhrer? MR. WUHRER: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What's the recommendation of county? MR. WUHRER: I would like to defer that recommendation to Mr.Ossorio. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mike -- do I need to have him sworn in? (Speaker was duly sworn.) MR. OSSORIO: Good morning. For the record, Mike Ossorio, Collier County Contractor Licensing Supervisor. Mr. Courtney didn't reflect the whole truth about his construction business. His construction business, he has passed the exam, got 100 on the exam. This gentleman has been in this business for a long time. And it's unusual that a client or a Collier County resident comes in and passes the exam on the first time. We have a 70 percent failure rate. He took the exam and got 100. I don't think I've seen that in days since I've been on the licensing board or in the office. I believe that Courtney had a lot of complaints on his last several months, eight, nine, 10. He's returned every single penny. Thousands of dollars. But we're here today due to the fact that he no longer can pay. This is exactly why the board is here to make this task. And we're going to recommend that he pays us $1,000 for investigative costs right off the bat. Two, a $5,000 penalty, which we will suspend ifhe repays Mr. Ginn the reimbursement of $5,200 within one month. His license will be suspended for one month. And after one month, if the county is satisfied or the board is satisfied that he has Page 35 January 17,2007 met the terms of the agreement, we will put him on probation for one year at that time. Should be under the direction of the contractor licensing supervisor or his designee. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you say that again? I'm in shell shock. MR. OSSORIO: Probation one year, after he pays Mr. Ginn back within 30 days. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's suspended till then. MR. OSSORIO: He's suspended until he pays Mr. Ginn back within one month. I would recommend that he take the exam again. Or I would recommend that he take the business and law exam. But I don't think that's going to serve him any purpose. This gentleman is smart. And I believe that when he tells me that he has some credit issues and he had his son issues, and those are all true, those are valid concerns. And that Mr. Ginn has been financially harmed by it of course. But I would like to see Courtney get his license and get reestablished in the community. And if we stop what we need to do and put him on suspended for one month and if he does what the board asked him to do and he pays everyone back he said he would do on record that he would do within 30 days, I don't see why not. I just hope that after 30 days, if we do decide that he is enough -- that he does have -- is able to conduct business, we would have no problem putting him on probation for a year. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Ossorio, for speaking out to the board right now. If Mr. Courtney will hear me. I think every one of us up here are totally shocked. Every company and every -- every company has what they call a hatchet man, and Michael Ossorio has never gone easy on anybody. I didn't expect this at all. So one thing I might mention, too, because I see which route Page 36 January 17, 2007 we're going to go. Mr. Zachary, if you want to chime in here. If we do restitution and order of this board includes restitution, that's an order from the Collier County Commissioners, is it not? MR. ZACHARY: That's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What happens if it's not paid? MR. ZACHARY: There are provisions to record liens against that order. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pull that mic up. County has the right -- will follow up with liens -- MR. ZACHARY: The county will follow up. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: With liens? MR. ZACHARY: I would suspect that would be the route. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's what's happened in the past. So if you hear restitution, it's dead serious. Okay, how do you all feel? MR. BLUM: Blew me away. MR. JOSLIN: I thought, Mr. Ossorio, that he had cause for suspension. But on the other hand, I have to agree with him. Because he's under his own testimony agreed he's not going to -- it's not going to matter whether or not he has a license or not at this particular moment. His license is on hold anyway. And he's already stated he's going to pay these people back. Now, that's I guess a 30-day gamble that we can take and allow him to at least make the opportunity that if he is financially able to pay them back, that this will be all gone. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What this also does, too, and knowing Mr. Ossorio, the way this department works, it's extremely rare for him to say this, because this means if we don't revoke his license that the other people that are sitting in the audience and the other people that will have claims against him will be able to come before this board and get the same satisfaction that we're going to give Mr. Ginn Page 37 January 17, 2007 today. If we revoke his license today, none of those people have any recourse through this board. You go straight to civil action and you're on your own. So for Mr. Ossorio to do that, he's obviously putting additional work at risk for his department. But make it clear what he said, he said restitution to Mr. Ginn within 30 days. If that happens, a one-year probation would take place. If it doesn't happen, we need to address that. If there's no restitution within 30 days, Mr. Ossorio, our understanding of restitution made to Mr. Ginn in 30 days, it's automatically a revoked license. MR. OSSORIO: That's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any other discussion? Five thousand dollar fine is -- we usually follow recommendation of the county for those of you that are listening. Five thousand dollar fine, which will be suspended if Mr. Ginn is paid within 30 days. Not abated, suspended. A thousand dollar investigative cost, which also must be paid within 30 days -- oh, no, I take that back. Did you say -- that one we're going to pay. MR. OSSORIO: That one he has to pay within 30 days. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Recommendation to the state. MR. OSSORIO: No, no recommendation to the state. But you could put in your finding of facts or recommend that Detective Dave White from the economics crime unit in Collier County takes a fresh look at the finding of facts, which I have no problem with. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Should we do that, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: I think that can be handled administratively between Mr. Ossorio and the detective. MR. GUITE': Is that $5,000 to the county or investigative fees or 1,000? Page 38 January 17, 2007 MR. OSSORIO: It's $1,000. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The restitution is 5,200. Just so you're aware, the economics crime unit of Collier County Sheriffs Department not only watches this show, they actively attend. So there's a lot of white color crime that's seen here that they take action on after we finish the cases. Anybody else? We got it all? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You want to do it? I need your lead. MR. HERRIMAN: Question. Does he get his thousand dollars back ever? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Gone. MR. HERRIMAN: Ifhe pays Mr. Ginn, he gets his $5,000 back? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, it will be suspended. MR. BLUM: I think I need to make a couple of points. I definitely will go along with Mr. Ossorio's recommendation, but I got a real problem with credibility here. As recently as last night or this weekend or today there was a potential offer on the table to turn over a truck registration in lieu of the 5,000. Now we're hearing that he's got $70,000 to pay back and it's no problem. I just -- I got a real problem with credibility. The man is definitely a smooth talker; he presents himself very well; he's recommended all over the place. I'm just not comfortable or as convinced as everybody else is of his veracity and his true intent. I just need to say that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, what happened on Friday night I can pretty well surmise that he didn't have the title to that vehicle, and Mr. Ginn is not going to take collateral for something he doesn't have title to. MR. COURTNEY: Mr. Ginn has the title in his hand. There's Page 39 January 17, 2007 the title right there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have to open it back up if I do this, don't I? MR. NEALE: No, it can be testimony on the sanctions section. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go back up there -- go back up to the mic, Mr. Courtney. What are you saying? MR. COURTNEY: You were questioning whether I had the title. Mr. Ginn has the title in his hand on that truck. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Too late for that. He's got to have the money in 30 days. You understand that, don't you? MR. COURTNEY: Yes, I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. No collateral. No collateral will mean an instantly revoked license -- or collateral will mean a revoked license, because you owe the money not to Mr. Ginn when you walk out of here today, you owe it to Collier County. Follow me? Anybody else? MR. JOSLIN: Just for the record. Mr. Ginn? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ginn, if you'd come to the mic. MR. GINN: It's Ginn, by the way. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm sorry. I think I'm thinking Ohio State football. MR. GINN: Ted's my cousin. Anybody can run like that I'll claim in a heartbeat. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's the only one that showed up, but go ahead. MR. GINN: Let me tell you, I've been doing this for a long time. And I agree that you need to go along with Michael, because these guys have proven to me that they are smart, they know what they're doing. I called the city manager of Hilton Head Island and said, if you Page 40 January 17, 2007 want to learn anything, come to Collier County. You all run a great county. But I will tell you right now, Mr. Courtney was -- it was fraud. I'm being real nice. It was fraud, flat out fraud. What you all have given him today, which I'm not going to go against, but I want it on the record that I think this man has defrauded me. He has called me many, many times, giving me false promises. And I hope you all put him where he needs to go ifhe does not pay you in 30 days. Because I will tell you, in 30 days I will be wherever I need to be to make sure Mr. Courtney goes to jail. Because the man flat out had no intent that I could see. And I have got a lot of background that I can back up in this business. And I feel like a chump. But I will tell you, he -- just flat out fraud, period. End of discussion. The man has just gotten a free go to -- get out of jail card. But I will tell you, in 30 days from this day, I will be in the fraud unit trying to put his you know what in jail. And he knows it. Because I'll tell you, everything that man has told me so far has been a lie. And I have been real nice up until this point. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You made your point. MR. GINN: Thank you. MR. BLUM: That is the topic of my concerns, Mr. Chairman. MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Chairman, I just want to clarify something. As far as our ordinance -- and I'll just read here, should any monetary penalty imposed by the board not be paid within the time specified by the board's order, the board may request from the Board of County Commissioners authority to that appropriate legal action to collect the penalty. So just to clarify. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I got you. And Mr. Ginn? I got it right this time, didn't I? MR. GINN: Absolutely. Me and Ted appreciate it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The thing we look at on this board, so that you understand, is we don't protect contractors, even though five Page 41 January 17, 2007 of us up here today are contractors. What we do is look for getting the money back for the residents. And if we can do that, then we've accomplished our job. What happens a lot of times is we ain't got a shot at getting the money back. You got a shot, that's why we're trying to do this. But the guy's name over at the Sheriffs Department is Dan White, and he'll know the section number. I'm holding it. It's -- I've got to put my glasses on. The section number is Florida Statute 489.126. And it's an instantaneous felony that they give to the state attorney. MR. GINN: All right, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay? So, I mean, it's not a brain teaser. MR. GINN: You do understand, I am very impressed by these gentlemen over to my right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I understand. They're an impressive bunch. They do a good job. And quite honestly, I'll say this: I'm shocked how quickly this has gotten to the board, Mr. Ossorio and Mr. Bartoe and Mr. Wuhrer, because the majority of time, you know, when we get these they're a year later. You guys got this to us within three-and-a-half months. It's amazIng. And also the beauty of that is if it stops other people in the county from getting harmed as well. MR. GINN: I'm very impressed with Collier County. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir. Okay, back to penalty phase. I'll make a motion. I've got it all written down here. I move that right off the bat Mr. Courtney be charged with $1,000 fine -- or $1,000 investigative cost that will be payable within 30 days to Collier County. Number two: That restitution of $5,200 that is now due and Page 42 January 17,2007 payable to Collier County to be forwarded to the homeowner as his restitution. Number three: That a fine of $5,000 be imposed. However, this fine will be suspended if the restitution and the fine are paid within that 30-day period. Should they not be paid, then the $5,000 fine would apply to both items. Number three (sic): That Mr. Courtney's license remain suspended as it is right now and if these two payments of investigative costs and restitution are paid within 30 days, his license will go from suspension to a one-year probation, at which time he will be monitored by the investigators from the licensing board of Collier County during that one-year period. However, if these two items totaling $6,200 are not paid within the 30 days described previously, that his license will be automatically revoked. Recommendation to the state is no further action at this time. Can anybody think of anything I've missed? MR. NEALE: Mr. Dickson, the only thing we would like to add is, and what I would suggest to the board is, that there be recommendation of no further action to the board except such action as may be necessary to allow the complainant to claim against the state Construction Industry Recovery Fund. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, he can't. He's disbarred from it. The only people that can go against the state recovery fund as of the last meeting is general contractors and -- MR.OSSORIO: It's called tier one contractor: Building contractors, general contractors and residential. Pool contractors, roofing are excluded. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's because the state ran that as well as they did the citizens insurance. MR. OSSORIO: I believe you probably can still pay into it, you just can't put a claim on it. Page 43 January 17, 2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, they're bankrupt. The recovery fund is bankrupt, just like the insurance company is. Oh, God, get this shut up. Okay, that's the end of the motion. MR. JOSLIN: I'll second the motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion? MR. JOSLIN: Anything we missed? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't think I was the least bit ambiguous. All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One more legalese. Conclusions of law. Conclusions of law alleged as set forth in the administrative complaint are approved, adopted and incorporated herein. Order of the board: Based upon the foregoing findings of fact and conclusion of law, pursuant to the authority granted in Chapter 489, Florida Statutes, and Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105, as amended, by a vote of seven in favor and zero opposed, it is hereby ordered that the following disciplinary sanctions and related order are imposed upon the holder of contractor Certificate of Competency No. 29639, and it will be those items that were previously stated, rather than restate them. This case is closed. Page 44 January 17,2007 Mr. Courtney, I hope you can come through with this. We'll needless to say be watching. Okay, you all are excused. Thank you. Mr. Ginn, thank you for coming to this board. MR. GINN: Thank you very much. My pleasure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We appreciate it. Lot of citizens let it go. We appreciate you taking the time. MR. GINN: I'm not going to let it go, I promise you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I can tell. Next case. Anybody need a quick five minutes? And it will only be five. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Chairman, I believe that might be Mr. Loughren that came in. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Well, we made you wait some. I could probably do -- MR. GUITE': We're going to make him wait five more minutes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The speakers are so low, I can't even tell who's talking. MR. GUITE': That was me. We're going to make him wait five more minutes, right? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, five-minute break. And really, pretty close to five. So, say, 10:28 or so, 10:29. (A break was taken.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Meeting called back to order. Case No. 2007-02. MR. BLUM: We were going to talk to this other gentleman who is waiting, I think. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, yeah. Dennis Loughren, you here? MR. LOUGHREN: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Come on up. State your name, I'll have you sworn in. Page 45 January 17,2007 MR. LOUGHREN: My name is Dennis 1. Loughren. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why are you here, Dennis? Welcome, by the way. MR. LOUGHREN: Thank you. I'd like to apologize to the board for being late this morning. I didn't mean to make you guys wait. I was actually applying to do work or reciprocate my contractor's license to do work within Collier County. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you were sent here for what reason? Let's get specific. MR. LOUGHREN: On the letter it says review of citations and complaints from Charlotte County. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tell us about them. MR. LOUGHREN: I had, I believe, four complaints through the period of time in 2005 with Charlotte County as we were doing the hurricane repairs. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And? MR. LOUGHREN: One complaint in particular was a gentleman had complained, I believe it was Mr. Miller. And I'm kind of reciting this from memory as I don't have a copy of this in front of me. I know you guys have the letters. Mr. Miller had complained in regards to an enclosure. We were -- signed the contract with him and we were to build his pool enclosure. We didn't take a deposit. It was pretty much my policy not to accept deposits. We like to complete payment upon completion of the job. However, we were to build his pool enclosure. And at the particular time I had paid Jim Bumpus, who is my soffit and fascia guy. He also did the tear down on my cages. He went out, removed his little spa enclosure for him and fixed the spa and soffit/fascia on his house, which wasn't in the contract, it was something we did extra. Page 46 January 17, 2007 I paid Jim $300 for the work, and the enclosure was removed. They had changed their permitting times from approximately about a week on pool enclosure permits to two weeks. And during that time we had his enclosure down he got frustrated. He sent the county a letter, sent me a letter. It was a registered letter. Upon receiving the registered letter, I went in and I met with Joanna, who is the Charlotte County license investigator, and I told her at this time I'd like to back out of contract with the gentleman. I don't want to pursue it having a registered letter because he stated that I had to have the enclosure done. I received the letter on Friday, let me state, and it was on the following Monday he demanded that I have the enclosure. I'd be there working on it and I did not have the permit in. So at that time I could not meet his demands because I don't want to get started on the enclosure with no permit. So he was released from contract. She closed the case upon code reVIew. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Ossorio, in all four of these cases there's what seems like a good answer. Have you verified these? MR. OSSORIO: No, I have not. But it is what it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have all the cases been closed? MR. LOUGHREN: Yes, sir, they have. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you know that for a fact? MR. OSSORIO: No, I don't. I can verify with Charlotte County. MR. LOUGHREN: The letter of reciprocity states on there that all cases are closed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you had some impatient customers, which all of us who have worked a hurricane fully understand. MR. LOUGHREN: And I hired some bad people. Bad sales rep, bad experience. Page 47 January 17, 2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, you do that one time. MR. LOUGHREN: And that was the one time. Bad management. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to point out to the board that two of these are for failure to pull a permit. You can't be unaware that you need to pull a permit. Although they did go back and get a permit after the fact, that's just it, it's after the fact. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How big were these jobs? Explain those two without a permit. MR. LOUGHREN: The two without a permit, one was Trefton Soucy, I believe. I believe. We built his enclosure. It was approximately 1,500 square feet, give or take. I think the contract value on it -- I'm recollecting from memory, so I'm going to say it was about $7,800 at the time. And the other job was Rose Marie Arnoldt. Rose Marie Arnoldt was a particular case where it was through Dick Standafer, who is a general contractor. Who I explained in the letter I come to find out his license was on hold. Charlotte County had numerous -- one investigation with numerous cases, I guess, into the gentleman. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He used to be in Collier County. MR. LOUGHREN: He was found through my sales rep, David Buckner, who I had hired. They were good '01 boys from Kentucky-- no offense to anybody from Kentucky -- but this is how they met. This is how the conversation started. Suddenly he had work. I was pretty much letting David kind of run things. I don't want to say I was pimping out my license or anything like that, quote, unquote, but I had him out there. I was paying him for his management services while I was working in the field, because it was after a hurricane and I was short on help, so I had to put on a tool belt and go out there and grind it out with the guys. So I was pretty much working sunup to sundown. And they found each other. There was no permit on it. I Page 48 January 17, 2007 panicked. I didn't know what to do, so I pulled a permit and I got called in. And like I said, it was much to the dismay of Charlotte County because they were actively investigating him on other residences, and they would have preferred to pursue him on the particular enclosure as well. But we did get the enclosure rectified. We got it buttoned up. The homeowner wasn't dissatisfied with the enclosure what was built. She was just upset because she was actually suing Mr. Standafer because, from what I recollect now, there was a difference in contractual price. He was overcharging her about $140,000, so -- he did the complete remodel on her house. So at that point that one kind of got a little hairy there. But there was no problem, she never had any problems against me, she just had the complaint against the both of us at the advice of her lawyer. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have any questions? MR. LEWIS: I'd just like to follow up. If you read the whole letter, Mr. Loughren actually states in here that he received one violation notice of 24 pool enclosures that had no permits. And all these have, you know, explanations, and it's great that everything was done after the fact, they were sometimes before the fact. Yet he's admitted that he's had employees, I believe a Mr. Buckner or something, that supposedly got him in trouble with some of these people. And just -- it appears to me that it's not somebody we want in Collier County. MR. LOUGHREN: Sir, for the record, the 24 pool enclosures that Charlotte County cited were unfounded. They were just the remaining 24 pool enclosures that I had under contract that David had sold. And he was worried about getting his commission on them so he reported me to the county, saying I had built all these enclosures with no permits. Page 49 January 17, 2007 They had come to find out upon further review that approximately 12 of them had already been built by other contractors. They had already been released from contract, and I released the remaining of the people from contract from me to dissolve my -- basically any relation with David Buckner. We didn't have any other violations other than those that I'm aware of. There were no other cases. And the only two that I was cited for for no permits were the two that were disclosed there. MR. LEWIS: And we appreciate your being straightforward with us. Let me ask you: How long have you been in business? MR. LOUGHREN: The company's been open since '92. I've owned it since '99. I've only held my contractor's license with Collier (sic) County since 2004. MR.OSSORIO: You don't have a license with Collier County. You mean Charlotte County? MR. LOUGHREN: I mean Charlotte County, I'm sorry. Yes, SIr. And like I say, it was kind of a learning experience for me. I tried to disclose that in the letter as well, because becoming a new contractor, learning some of the other ends of the business and doing it after a hurricane, I got a little overwhelmed. I did the best I could. There was a lot of damage. I mean, we geared up and ran with it and made ends meet and basically took care of all of our customers. And anybody there that we built an enclosure for will tell you they were more than satisfied with the enclosure. We do really nice work. MR. LEWIS: May I ask you, sir, what's bringing you down to Collier County? MR. LOUGHREN: I have contractors that want to do work within this area and they'd like for me to be licensed down here. MR. LEWIS: Do you mind divulging those names? Are they Page 50 January 17,2007 national contractors? MR. LOUGHREN: Well, actually, there is a couple of different general contractors that are doing work down here. There is one that is Home Solutions. They're -- I'm trying to think of the parent company that they -- sorry, I left my phone on. Sorry about that. I meant to turn it off after the break. But Home Solutions was looking to do work down here. I'm also currently doing work with AAA Pool Enclosures. And I believe I've had a couple of their offers to possibly come down here. So I thought it might be to my benefit to actually put my license on file. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? MR. JOSLIN: Who was the license holder before you became the licensing holder? MR. LOUGHREN: It wasn't a contracting company before I became the license holder. Actually, it was a rescreening and repair business. It didn't become a -- we didn't start building pool enclosures until I got my license and became an aluminum contractor. MR. GUITE': Do you presently live here, or you live in Thonotosassa? MR. LOUGHREN: No, sir, we live in -- I live in Lakeland. My business address is 9907 East Fowler Avenue, Thonotosassa. MR. GUITE': And you're licensed in Lakeland? MR. LOUGHREN: No, I'm not. MR. BLUM: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. BLUM: One comment. We've gone through the hurricane season as well with lots of contractors, and pool enclosures was probably one of the biggest problems resulting from all our storms, and we haven't seen before us the magnitude of problems that this contractor has had from other pool enclosure people. The excuse about hurricanes and overwhelmed and all these things, that's got to do with managing your business and being a Page 51 January 17, 2007 reputable contractor and somebody who cares about the job he does and the people that he works for. I have to go back to where there's a lot of smoke, there's got to be a fire. And I kind of echo Mr. Lewis' feelings. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I'm on the fence. I like the individual that's in front of me. He's articulate, seems like a good person. You just have to understand, and the reason we're being slow here is we have had a lot of trouble with screen enclosure people after Hurricane Wilma. MR. LOUGHREN: I can imagine. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They're still coming in. MR. LOUGHREN: I tried to say, as I say, I kind of learned as I went. I wasn't familiar with some of the other end of the business, and I made some mistakes early on. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What I'm wanting to do personally is not take an action on this request and kick it back to our investigators and let them get a little bit deeper into this. Mr. Ossorio, do you have a problem with this? MR.OSSORIO: Well, if you want us to go ahead and spend time and money on this contractor, supposed contractor, and communicate with Charlotte County, that's what we'll do, if you want us to do so. But clearly under the ordinance it does stipulate on the face of the application if it doesn't meet the merit, it gets deferred back to you. I can do a little more research and talk to Bill Collandrea up there in Charlotte County. He's going to probably tell me the same thing, that the cases have been closed. But with that said, here we are again. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, what are the board's legal rights in this situation? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We go to the boss. MR. NEALE: Well, the board, you know, does have the Page 52 January 17, 2007 discretion to deny licensure for a variety of reasons if they feel -- the real primary test of this board is to protect the citizens of Collier County from someone who they feel would be a potential danger to the financial well-being, primarily, of Collier County residents. So I think that's probably the best touch zone for this board to look upon. MR. BLUM: A year from now if this applicant came before us with no further problems from other agencies, I'd probably look at it a lot differently. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you're saying a probationary period. How do you feel about that, Mr. Ossorio? MR. BLUM: I'm not necessarily saying that we should give him a license on probation. I would prefer not to see him here for a year and then come in before us with no new violations, no problems. MR. JOSLIN: I have to agree. If he can't in a sense handle the business that he has up in Charlotte County, we're going to let him come into Collier County and do the same thing, probably. Under the circumstances, that's how I feel. MR. LEWIS: Well, I look at it this way: The man has a driver's license that has Thonotosassa -- I can't say that word -- but he does not live. He's not licensed in the county that he does live in by his own admission, you know, and that's three to four counties away. I'm not in favor of having this man down here at this point in time. Mr. Neale, have you found a -- MR. NEALE: Really, there's nothing specific to the point of the number of complaints. It's really, the board has to make a decision based upon its best judgment as to whether the licensee is competent to perform the trade here and whether the board feels that citizens of Collier County are adequately protected. MR. LEWIS: I don't believe the citizens of Collier County would be protected with this man. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've just had some customers like this. Page 53 January 17, 2007 MR. BLUM: We've all been down this road. We've all had these kind of -- all of us have been in business, we've all had this happen to us one way or another. But I can't think of that number of problems in such a short period of time. One here, one -- this is -- for a guy with not a 50-man crew, this is an awful lot of smoke. MR. LOUGHREN: Well, we've built 150 to 200 pool enclosures in Charlotte County. MR. BLUM: In what period of time? MR. LOUGHREN: Through the course of2005 into 2006. We've had no complaints through 2006, other than what was there, to my knowledge. MR. BLUM: There's two here, June and August of'06, ifmy memory serves. Let me look at this. MR. LOUGHREN: They should be dated on the letter of reciprocity . MR. BLUM: Yeah, it was June of'05, August of'05. MR. LOUGHREN: We didn't start building pool enclosures for ourselves until approximately December of 2004. And it was December when we got wound up, because I didn't receive my license there until 2004, that was in November. I'm not certain on the date. I did provide a copy of the certificate of competency in there, though. MR. LEWIS: So the problems prior to that you were subcontracting? MR. LOUGHREN: No, actually the majority of this was contracting -- Ms. Arnold was -- actually, I was subcontracting, but again, as I stated, I did file for the permit because I didn't know what to do in the particular circumstances. I should have asked but I thought well, I'm a contractor, I'll pull the permit and that will take care of it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, somebody take the lead. We're all waffling. MR. JOSLIN: I'll make the motion. Unfortunately I'm going to Page 54 January 17, 2007 make the motion to deny this application for AAA (sic) Screens to be licensed in Collier County. MR. LOUGHREN: I'm sorry, for the record it's A.S.A.P. Rescreens. I'm actually subcontracting right now. MR. JOSLIN: I'm sorry, A.S.A.P. Rescreens. MR. GUITE': I'll second the motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? MR. BLUM: I would add to the motion, mention the gentleman's name, because we don't know the name he mayor may not come up here under. So if you're going to make a motion, I would do it, Mr. Loughren. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Dennis John Loughren, A.S.A.P. Rescreens, LLC, to be denied application to be licensed in Collier County at this time. MR. LEWIS: And as discussion goes, you know, Syd mentioned that a year from now, if he comes back and shows that the counties that he's licensed in has a zero complaint record, then I think it's certainly for reconsideration at that time. MR. JOSLIN : Yes, I'll amend it to that, yes. MR. BLUM: I would second that motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No way, we already got a motion-- oh, you second the amended -- MR. BLUM: I second the amended motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. We're still on discussion. I just think we're -- I'm right in the middle. I don't know where to go. I wish we had called his referrals. I wish I had a little bit more on this. I know when you saw the complaints everything stopped, and I would have done the same thing. But I just wish I had a little bit more, because I feel like I might be judging an individual incorrectly. Because I've been through a hurricane, and so have you guys, and you know how nasty it gets and how nasty some of the customers can -- Page 55 January 17, 2007 MR. LOUGHREN: Our biggest problem there was that we were coming in as the last person. Everyone had pretty much had, you know, what they were going to have done. In the beginning it was the first person, towards the middle to the end it was kind of the last guy in, and you basically get the treatment that you're just like everybody else that we've ever had that was a bad contractor or anything like that. If they've had any problems with anybody, you kind of get the abuse to some degree. But I won't use that as an excuse, because we are liable for our actions. And I tried to live and learn and pick up from my mistakes and carry on and conduct myself which, I mean, clearly through the year that we continued contracting and had no complaints, that kind of showed to some degree. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You know who the smart people were? The ones that called me this fall to repair their Hurricane Wilma damages. Quick service, good prices, no hassle. And they said it wasn't that severe, I could wait a year. MR. GUITE': Now, did these complaints come up against -- was it after the hurricane? MR. LOUGHREN: Yes, the Hurricane Charley went through in 2004, they suffered great damages there. And that was the work from Hurricane Charley. MR. GUITE': And after that they had almost a mob mentality up there as far as getting things done and insurance claims. MR. LOUGHREN: Yes. They had campers set up in parking lots with roofing companies in the tent and they had the whole nine yards. I don't know the extent of the damage. I arrived there to do work within that county and I started doing rescreening and repairs, which I did get licensed for at the time. And I had a temporary contractor's license at the time through their county, which they were issuing. And this was in August of 2004. Page 56 January 17, 2007 And I got there about 10 days after the storm, and I worked clear on through and worked out what I had under my temporary contractor's license and was allowed to do and then received my license through them in November of 2004, and we carried on from there and conducted ourselves. MR. GUITE': Are you planning on moving south? MR. LOUGHREN: Well, I used to live in -- I moved to Charlotte County and I lived there for a year and a half. I just moved back to Lakeland. I bought a piece of property up there and we were considering building a house and everything, and my wife's family is all from that area and so is my father's side of the family. So we were actually continuing to live up there. But as you can see right now, I'm working with Del Ray Beach as a subcontractor. And typically we are one of the few pool cage companies around that will hear offers from contractors to go to different regions to do work. And if they offer for us to go somewhere, then we'll take it, of course. It's all about if the money's right. And sometimes dealing with the contractors, if they're good people or can be trusted, it's a lot less headache or stress than dealing with the homeowners in a particular region, because again, you have the politics of what they've already been through. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. I have a motion to deny and second. All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? Page 57 January 17, 2007 Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How many opposed? MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. Three. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Three. It's the middle of the fence, but you see what happened. Four against and three -- MR. LOUGHREN: I have to respect the board's decision. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Maybe, you know -- and I wish you well. You seem like a decent person. But I wish you well. Maybe in a year come back, or if there's extenuating circumstances. MR. LOUGHREN: Well, I'm actually going for my state license in the next testing, so I figure I'm going to go through and do the state test. It's been in the works and I started doing the registered contractor thing. But as Mr. Ossorio pointed out to me, there's no real point in going registered, you may as well go certified. So I've switched my application now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you're going to go statewide, only requirement of a state contractor is to go in and tell him you're there and register with them. MR. LOUGHREN: Yes, that's what I became aware of. But I was trying to push things through because my contractors, I had two of them that were calling me requesting that I move my license around just in case the contracts land. So-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Wish you well. Pleasure to talk to you. MR. LOUGHREN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir. MR. LOUGHREN: Have a good day. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You, too. With that, Case No. 2007-02, Robert A. Mantua, are you present? Page 58 January 17, 2007 MR. MANTUA: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would come forward. D/b/a Florida Suncoast Contractors, Incorporated. And Mr. Jackson, you're going to present the case? MR. JACKSON: I am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Welcome. MR. JACKSON: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: For those of you who weren't here last week, this is one -- you've been with us 60, 90 days? MR. JACKSON: August. MR. BARTOE: Long enough we're going to abandon him. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, how time flies. Good to have you. Gentlemen, both of you were present for the other case, were you not, so you know how this runs? MR. MANTUA: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any questions? MR. MANTUA: None as of right now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: With that, I'll open up. Mr. Jackson, if you'll state your name I'll have you sworn in, and then if you'll give me an opening statement. MR. JACKSON: Certainly. Ian Jackson, contractor licensing compliance, Collier County. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You want to introduce this first? Go ahead. MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Chairman, if there's no objection, I would like to introduce what's been marked as Exhibit A in this case, the county's file, into the record. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, go ahead. Anybody have any objection? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? Page 59 January 17, 2007 MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. So done. (The speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning, fire away. MR. JACKSON: I received a complaint on October 26th of'06 from a Mr. and Mrs. Salwasser regarding the construction of a carport and an aluminum room to their mobile home. This contract was originally signed December 8 of'05. The construction that has taken place is minimal at best, and was constructed without a building permit issued. No construction has since taken place, showing two periods greater than 90 days with no work performed, where the abandonment comes in. The job was a total $18,642. And a deposit of$13,781 has been given by the homeowners to the contractor, with once again very minimal work, with no permit, and two periods greater than 90 days of no work. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Jackson, by very minimal work, could you just elaborate on this a little bit? What is on the job or what is -- MR. JACKSON: In the packet, Page E-14, the aluminum work there alongside the driveway is the work that has been done. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And that's good enough. Go ahead with your opening statement. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I think that's going to be about it for the opening statement. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Mantura -- Mantilla? Am I saying that right? Page 60 January 17, 2007 MR. MANTUA: Mantua. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mantua. Welcome. Good morning to you. MR. MANTUA: Good morning to you, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would, state your full name, and I'll have you sworn in, sir. MR. MANTUA: Robert Anthony Mantua, with Florida Suncoast Contractors, Incorporated. (The Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead and tell us what you're going to present today. MR. MANTUA: Our company contracted with Mr. and Mrs. Salwasser to do a proj ect right in the midst of Hurricane Wilma. Chaos, as you would. We got a bunch of people in that same park and community at the same time, and they were put on a list to do their job in accordance to if they were in town or out of town. We -- the salesman I had out there sold them a bill of goods, so to speak, and unfortunately I didn't catch it in time. We tried to work with what he sold them, and now I'm stuck holding the bag. Kind of at a loss. We've had one meeting at least with the homeowner and Mr. Jackson, trying to figure out an amicable solution. He sold them a set of doors on the front of his carport screen room that just can't be built ethically, you know, and still have the same purpose they want. So we've been trying to do that. We've gone through several lead men. I have a total of 65 man hours on the job site. Per crew, not per man. So we do have, you know, a substantial amount of work out on the job site. We did do the tear-down, we did do that structure that you see in the picture. But also, there was tearoff and headers and stuff like that put up on the home as well that's not in the picture. I guess what I'm trying to get -- I guess what I'm trying to get to Page 61 January 17, 2007 today is to figure out a way to make the customer happy, more than anything. I understand you guys want to -- you know, you guys have your process to do, but I would actually rather have the customer happy than anything. Whether they have someone else contract to do the work, whether we continue to do it, whatever might happen, I just would rather see the customer happy than anything. That's my opening statement. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, push that mic away from you. Yeah. Okay, go ahead and present your case, Mr. Jackson. MR. JACKSON: I would like to have Mrs. Salwasser testify, please. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tell you what, if you would, Mr. Mantua, I'm going to have you sit down. And if your witness would come over here to this podium. Over here, ma'am. And if you would, state your name and I'll have the lady next to you swear you In. MRS. SAL WASSER: My name is Mary Salwasser. I live at 30 Queen Palm Drive, Marco Shores Estates, in Naples. (The speaker was sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We do welcome you today. Glad to have you with us. MRS. SALWASSER: Good morning, everybody. This is a new experience for me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We'll try to make it a pleasant one. Go ahead, Mr. Jackson. MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Mrs. Salwasser, if you could explain how you found Mr. Mantua to do your work. MRS. SAL WASSER: He had been working in our park. We Page 62 January 17, 2007 were supposed to fly down on the day that Wilma hit, October 24th. And our flight was canceled so we didn't get down here until November 5th. He was already working at the park at that time. Excuse me, I'm just getting laryngitis. We did ask him for a card and to come over and give us an estimate on a job, which we did sign a contract with his man that was working on that -- at that particular time working for him. We did sign a contract with him. He stated just a few minutes ago that there was a difference in the job. But when -- the day that we did sign a contract with him, with a Mr. John McNally that worked for him. It did stipulate with Mr. McN ally about the opening doors that we had before, which accommodated a smaller car to be parked in there. But we bought a bigger car and we wanted to move it four feet out with the same doors installed. Except that this time when we were installing the screen room, we wanted acrylic windows put in, okay. That went into the contract. But he stated when he was up here before that there was a change as far as the doors. Well, I have a signed paper from his man, the same day that we signed the contract, he came back over an hour later and said I have to have another $1,200 to make those doors, okay. We signed that. He's getting paid for that -- he was getting paid for that. They were supposed to be the double wide opening doors and a man door on the side that could be locked, because when we locked the screen door, that would be the only door that we could lock our house with when we left. We're snowbirds. MR. OSSORIO: Mrs. Salwasser, just for the record, you were looking at Exhibit No. E-4; am I correct? MRS. SAL WASSER: E-3 was the original contract and E-4 is the second one. And you'll notice that they're signed on the same date. These two contracts were signed on the same date. He said that that came up later about this door business. That's not true. He knew about Page 63 January 17, 2007 it that day that we signed the contract. He's the one that came in with Mr. McNally, and we signed a contract for another $1,200. When we left -- first of all, we did pay him. He requested everybody pay one-fourth down. We did that. He was very slow. When he did accept our contract, he said that our job would probably -- they wouldn't get around to it until the middle of February, even the end of February. We said no problem. He was slow in getting his other jobs done, so he had a meeting at the rec hall with all of the 20-some other people that he had contracts with that were not finished yet. And he told everybody okay, you're first, you're second, you're third, you're fourth. MR. BLUM: Excuse me, when was that meeting? MRS. SAL WASSER: This was in March, 14th or 15th. It was in the middle of March. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Of'06, right? MRS. SALWASSER: Yes. MR. BLUM: Four months after the initial contract was signed he got together and explained his delays. MRS. SALWASSER: Yes. MR. OSSORIO: Mrs. Salwasser, I don't want to belabor the point, but we just want to establish on E- 7, that is the initial downpayment, including the two estimates; am I correct, for $4,060? MRS. SALWASSER: E-six -- yes. E-7 was the initial downpayment of $4,060.50. And then an hour later he came back and said he wanted another $1,200. And -- but he said he -- and on that contract it read that -- let's see, that another four should have been paid. But he says, we'll let that go today. But it was added to the balance that we did owe, which brought the other three checks to $4,860.50. That would have been the three remaining checks were different from the first deposit. Plus if you added $1,200. MR. JOSLIN: At the time that this happened, what had he done Page 64 January 17,2007 as far as the work was performed at your home? MRS. SAL WASSER: Nothing. MR. JOSLIN: Nothing had been done at all, but nearly $8,000 was transferred? MRS. SAL WASSER: No, only 4,000 at that time. MR. JOSLIN: 4,000 plus the other $600 deposit? MRS. SAL WASSER: No, he waived that other $600. MR. JOSLIN: Oh, he waived that. MRS. SAL W ASSER: Yeah. So I just added it to the balance that we did owe him, which would have made the last three remaining checks larger. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Joslin, I believe Jackson is going to go ahead and go through that payment process. So we're still on the first draw. Can you take us to the second time that he asked for payment. MRS. SAL WASSER: We left -- first of all, at that meeting he told us that we were fourth on that list. So we left. He said well, I'll get to yours and I'll probably be done with your job by the end of April. But if I'm not, the acrylic windows will just snap in. So that will probably happen after you're gone, because we left the end of April. Then we left three checks with a friend of ours in the park who was doing this for some other people, too. So that when the materials were delivered to our house, he was supposed to get another fourth, which was another $4,000. MR. OSSORIO: That's depicted on E-8? MRS. SAL W ASSER: Yes. Let's see. I took this apart. Okay. Well, the three remaining checks were the same anyhow. So he called our friend and said, I need the check for materials for Salwasser's house. So our friend went over there and here he's had this great big truck full of materials, and our friend gave him the check, $4,860. Page 65 January 17, 2007 MR. OSSORIO: That's Exhibit No.8 for $4,860, dated 5/5/06? MRS. SALW ASSER: Yes, that was the 5th of May. And our neighbor drove by in his car two hours later and the truck was gone, no materials at our house. That was it. So our friend called me a couple of days later and I said, well, you know, let's give him a little time, leave it go. And another week went by and still nothing happened. So I called up Mr. Mantua and I said, what's going on? He said, oh, just, you know, I'm not -- not any problems, no problems here. First place, he didn't return my calls. I had to call the park manager and the park manager must have informed him that I was looking for him. So he did call about an hour later after I talked to the park manager. I wanted to know what was going on. He says, you know, I'm swamped, I'm this and that. I said, well, you got my materials check and there's no materials there. So upon the end of that conversation with that man, which was in June, he called up the friend of ours who at that time didn't know how this man was doing business, and he said, I just talked to Mrs. Salwasser on the phone and she said I could have the second check. The second check was supposed to be in the event that the job took longer than one week, he would get his third check of $4,080. MR. OSSORIO: And that's on Exhibit No.9? MRS. SALWASSER: Yes. So he did get the check, and nothing. Nothing, nothing, nothing. We got down here in -- MR. OSSORIO: Mrs. Salwasser, just to clarify real quick, so you're saying that these three checks were taken out of your checking account? MRS. SAL WASSER: No, they were given to a friend of ours Page 66 January 17, 2007 and he presented -- MR.OSSORIO: Okay, but I assume they did clear and he did receive the funds? MRS. SAL W ASSER: Yes, they did. But the last one that he received on June 20th, our friend called and said, you know, I think I made a big mistake. He said, I got to thinking about it overnight. He called me June 21 st, I believe it was, or the day after. And I called the check (sic) and they said that the check had been written on June 20th and it was cashed June 20th. Because I think he knew that if I heard about that I would have canceled the check. MR. OSSORIO: Okay. Well, let's just talk real quick about after June. When did he start actually constructing that screen enclosure for you? MRS. SAL WASSER: A neighbor who was watching our house for us this summer said that he had a man over there for a half a day tearing down the two screen doors that were still there, and I believe the roof up over the screen room, and the rest of the trim that had to be taken town. MR.OSSORIO: Mrs. Salwasser, what approximately (sic) date was that? MRS. SAL WASSER: I think it was the week of June -- maybe the week of -- the third week in June, I think she said, June 17th or something like that. MR. OSSORIO: So the company was actually working in June on your place and Robert Mantua had asked for the check on 6/0/06? MRS. SAL WASSER: Right. MR.OSSORIO: Okay. At that time did Robert Mantua ever disclose to you that he had a problem with the construction of it? MRS. SAL WASSER: No. MR. OSSORIO: Tell me about the building permit question. How did that come up? MRS. SALWASSER: Well, when we got back down here in Page 67 January 17, 2007 October, we had eight posts along our driveway. MR. OSSORIO: Mrs. Salwasser, can you depict that on E-14? Are those the posts we're talking about? MRS. SAL W ASSER: Yes, I believe Mr. Ian Jackson probably took that picture. Yes, that's all that we found. No other materials on the job either, just those posts. MR. OSSORIO: So you did talk to Mr. Robert Mantua about the building permit? MRS. SAL W ASSER: Yes, several -- no, when we got down here we had run into him at our rec hall, talking to our park manager, and I -- you know, when are you going to do our job? He said, I'm going to do Mrs. McGowen's first and then I'm going to do yours. I said, she's still up in Canada, she won't be here for another month, why don't you do ours and then do hers? No, I'm going to do her job first. That's all we got out of him. I said, well, then, why don't you just give us our money back. His answer was, you ain't gonna get it. Verbatim. MR. OSSORIO: Okay, so let's just go on real quick about the building permit. So in your estimate you did inquire about that? MRS. SAL W ASSER: Yes, I called the permitting department because I knew I had talked to other people and they said, well, he didn't have permits for all these jobs. I called -- MR. OSSORIO: When was that, sometime in June or July? MRS. SAL WASSER: No, I called in October, the permitting department, and they said that he had applied for one in May and it was rejected, but he never reapplied for it. So I said there's no application for my house? And I had talked to Mrs. McGowen up in Canada. And she said, see if he's got one for my house, too. At that point he didn't. That was October 25th. MR. OSSORIO: Can we go look at E-6 under Collier County Board of County Commissioners. Page 68 January 17, 2007 MRS. SAL WASSER: Right. MR. OSSORIO: On the top left-hand side it says the date. Can you tell the Board what that date is? MRS. SAL W ASSER: You mean the permit date? MR. OSSORIO: Issue date. MRS. SAL WASSER: Issued November 28th. MR. OSSORIO: And from your recollection, all the work was done prior to that date being issued. MRS. SAL WASSER: It was done in June. MR. OSSORIO: It was done in June? MRS. SALWASSER: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: When this permit was issued, was the work done? Was it completed then? MRS. SAL WASSER: No. I still have the eight posts and nothing else. MR. JOSLIN: So it's still not completed. MRS. SALWASSER: No. MR. OSSORIO: Mrs. Salwasser, to this date, on E-14, those four posts, that's what's out there today; am I correct? MRS. SAL W ASSER: Yes. There has been nothing added, except that little box at the bottom of the picture on the -- on, I believe it's the eighth post counting from the house out. There is a box there. He told Mr. Jackson he's going to be delivering materials to our house. That went on for two or three days. And he finally came over with a box, 24 by 24 with some rolled up metal in it. That's the materials that he delivered. MR. OSSORIO: Mrs. Salwasser, what happened on Friday, the 12th of this month? Did he drop off-- MRS. SAL WASSER: He dropped off, I don't know what you call it. It's like about a three-inch square. It's kind of posting, it's the same materials. MR. OSSORIO: Just aluminum, panels. Page 69 January 17,2007 MRS. SAL W ASSER: Yes, and one dented dirty ceiling panel. MR. OSSORIO: So it looks like from your estimate that you -- it's coming from other job sites? MRS. SAL WASSER: This panel has been sitting around for months, according to the looks of it. It's filthy dirty. And it has a three- foot dent, just a line. And another one about 18 inches next to it. MR. MANTUA: Just for the record, that's our work table, it's not the material. MRS. SALW ASSER: Well, it still had the cardboard on the end -- on one end. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Zachary, do you have any other questions for Mrs. Salwasser? MR. ZACHARY: No. I would just like to nail down the times and dates. You signed the contract -- MRS. SAL WASSER: December 8th. MR. ZACHARY: -- December 8th, '05. You signed the change order 12/8/05; is that correct? MRS. SAL WASSER: One hour later, yes. MR. ZACHARY: At that time you gave a deposit check for $4,060.50. MRS. SALWASSER: Yes. Which was one-fourth of the original cost. MR. ZACHARY: One-fourth. After that no work was done until June of '06; is that correct? MRS. SAL WASSER: That's right. MR. ZACHARY: And that work consisted of -- MRS. SAL WASSER: Eight pillars. MR. ZACHARY: -- tearing down-- MRS. SAL W ASSER: Yeah, there was some tearing down. MR. ZACHARY: Tear down, erecting eight pillars. But no material had been delivered other than those, what we see in E-14. Page 70 January 17, 2007 MRS. SAL WASSER: Right. MR. ZACHARY: And then after that, no work was done. You called permitting in October of '06, there was no permit. And as we can see, a permit was pulled 11/16/06. MRS. SAL W ASSER: Yes. After I entered my complaint, that's when he pulled the permit. MR. ZACHARY: There was no work done between 6/20/06 and 11/16/06. MRS. SALWASSER: Yes. MR. HUMISTON: And then you finally said around the 12th of this month, 2007, that some materials were delivered. MRS. SAL WASSER: Yes, some -- it's to make pillars with -- MR. ZACHARY: And no work was done at that time between June and-- MRS. SALWASSER: No. MR. ZACHARY: -- a few days ago. MRS. SALWASSER: No. MR. ZACHARY: And in the meantime, you'd also given him two more checks. So the total amount that you had given him at this point -- MRS. SALWASSER: $13,781. MR. ZACHARY: Sixteen thousand -- MRS. SAL WASSER: Thirteen thousand. MR. ZACHARY: $13,781? MRS. SAL W ASSER: Yes. MR. ZACHARY: I don't have anything. MRS. SAL WASSER: And he lied to get both of those. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Jackson, Mr. Ossorio? MR. OSSORIO: I just have one question for Ian Jackson. Ian, have you calculated the days of abandonment on this particular job? First time and second time. MR. JACKSON: I have. The first period from 12/8/05 from the Page 71 January 17,2007 signing of the contract to 5/8 of '06 when the permit was applied for was approximately 150 days. Bear with me. The period of time from 6/19 when the work was done there through 11/28 of '06 when the permit was issued and posted at the property was another approximately 160 days. Two periods, approximately 150 days and 160 days each. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Only thing I might mention of that, from the date of the contract to the date of the permit is 10 days short of365. MR. JACKSON: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Enough said. MR. OSSORIO: Okay, Mr. Dickson, I want to go ahead and enter myself in as a witness. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would -- wait just a minute. Hang on just a minute. Are you finished with your questions for this witness? MR. JACKSON: I am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Mantua, do you have questions of this witness -- MR. MANTUA: Yes, I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- yes or no. MR. MANTUA: Yes, I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would come over here. MR. MANTUA: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you can address her from there and ask your questions. MR. MANTUA: Mrs. Salwasser, the change order that took place, I have here a signature of John McNally is the one who made it. And he's the one who sold the job to you. MRS. SALWASSER: Yes. MR. MANTUA: Okay. You told me when he was fired. How short after he signed this contract with you was he fired? Page 72 January 17, 2007 MRS. SAL WASSER: I thought he said just before Christmas. MR. MANTUA: Yeah, within a short period of time after signing this job, correct? MRS. SALWASSER: Yes. MR. MANTUA: The reason he was fired was because he sold people like you these jobs and didn't know what he was doing. And when we caught on to him, we terminated him. MR. JACKSON: Is there a question? MR. MANTUA: The question was when was he fired and whatnot. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, you made your point. But that's not her problem, it's yours. MR. MANTUA: No, I understand that. I understand that. MRS. SAL W ASSER: You yourself came back with a change order for another $1,200 an hour later after the first contract was signed. MR. MANTUA: I don't remember that. I don't believe I did that. John McNally's signature is on this thing. MRS. SAL W ASSER: You're the one that came in the house just like a hurricane and said, I've got to have $1,200 more for that, but we'll waive the $600. You yourself came in the house with that. My husband was here at that time, he will tell you the same thing. MR. MANTUA: You stated that I lied several times to get these checks. According to your -- I called you -- our office called you on -- for the third check on 6/20. And we were sitting in front of your house talking to your next door neighbor. Do you remember that phone call? MRS. SAL WASSER: I was up north. MR. MANTUA: The phone works up north, doesn't it, ma'am? MRS. SALWASSER: Yes, yes. MR. MANTUA: Do you remember that phone call? Page 73 January 17, 2007 MRS. SAL WASSER: I don't know if it was the 20th. It could have been, yes. That's the day you got the check. MR. MANTUA: And Mr. -- I can't remember the gentleman's name, but your friend that was taking care of -- MRS. SALWASSER: Yes, Mr. D'Lorenzo. MR. MANTUA: Johnny D. He wouldn't release any funds without your permission; is that correct? MRS. SAL WASSER: No, that's not correct. MR. MANTUA: You called him and told him that. MRS. SAL WASSER: When we left town, I said you would get in touch with him. You called him up and you said, here's the materials for Salwassers, I need the check. You were in front of our house with the truck. He surmised that it was for our house. Two hours later, nothing was there. You were gone, the truck was gone. Then two weeks later on the 20th, I called you, I believe it was either the 20th or the 19th, and you called him the 20th and said, I just talked to Mrs. Salwasser on the phone and she said that you could give me the second check. John called me after that and I said, John, that's an out and out lie. I'm sorry, I never told him that. At that point you had three checks then, and that's when I told John, I said, John, I don't want you to have to deal with him anymore, you send me the final check for the last balance and send me the contracts also. Because I had left those with John, too. So John sent them back to me. But you told him after my phone conversation with you that I said you could have that second check from him, and that was a complete lie. MR. MANTUA: Then why did you release it? MRS. SALWASSER: I didn't. You went to Mr. John D'Lorenzo and said I just talked to Mr. Salwasser and she said I could have the Page 74 January 17, 2007 check. John didn't know at that time what your character was and he gave you that second check. MR. MANTUA: If I fraudulently took this check-- MRS. SALWASSER: You did. MR. MANTUA: If I did, which I did not, why didn't you put a stop payment on it? MRS. SAL WASSER: I called the bank the next day and it had been cashed the same day you got it. MR. MANTUA: It's a commercial check, they won't cash commercial checks. You have to deposit them so they clear. All these business owners here know that. MRS. SAL WASSER: All right. But you deposited it -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me interject here. MR.OSSORIO: We didn't charge him with fraud, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: First of all, I studied the endorsements on all three of the checks. There's no commercial deposit stamp on any of them, and one of them looks like somebody's signature, so -- MR. MANTUA: Yeah, which I don't understand that signature either. I think that was my office assistant; I think that's Kim Pugler. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's pretty bad management. MR. MANTUA: Yeah. She's no longer with us either. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't go down that line. MR. MANTUA: I'm going to wait till my defense because I make myself look bad here by arguing these points right now. And like I said in my opening statement, I just want her to be happy. I want my customer to be happy, whether I do the job or not. I want her to be happy. And I -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't want to interrupt your questions. You're free to question. MR. MANTUA: No, I'm done, thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any redirect, Mr. Jackson? You can go ahead and sit down, Mr. Mantua. Page 75 January 17, 2007 MR. JACKSON: No, thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mrs. -- does anyone have any questions of Mrs. Salwasser while she's here? Should we go ahead and do that now, don't you think? I'll just keep you up there at one time this way. MRS. SAL WASSER: That's okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anyone have any questions of the witness? MR. BLUM: Since Mr. Mantua mentioned it, I'm curious to know. What would you like to see happen here? MRS. SAL WASSER: Do you want the truth? MR. BLUM: Sure, of course. MRS. SALWASSER: I'm sworn to tell the truth. This man does not know how to do aluminum work. The last job that he just did was MR. BLUM: Let me interrupt. Don't go there. What do you want to see happen? MRS. SAL WASSER: I want my money back. I don't want to have to deal with this man. He's driven my blood pressure sky high. I don't want to deal with him. I want our money back. And he's welcome to come on our property and take the few materials that are there. That's another thing I wanted to ask. He claims he's got how much into the job? I've got people that will come in and swear that he had one man working half a day doing the teardown and the other eight posts were put in in less than half -- in about a half a day. The way I look at it, he's probably got a day's wages. MR. LEWIS : We're getting way off the -- I mean, I appreciate the lady's argument and statements, but it's not time for that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I agree, that's okay. So you just want your money back. MRS. SAL WASSER: I want our full money back. Page 76 January 17,2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any questions of this witness? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you very much. If you would, go back and have your seat. MRS. SAL WASSER: Thank you, gentlemen. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Jackson, next witness you want to bring up? MR. JACKSON: I believe Mr. Ossorio wanted to have himself sworn in for this. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Michael, I'm going to have you go over here then. We'll keep this formal to some degree. You've already been up once already? MR. OSSORIO: I have. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You've been sworn in already? MR.OSSORIO: I have, but I can do it again. THE COURT REPORTER: In a prior case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Prior case. Swear him in. (The speaker was duly sworn.) MR. OSSORIO: Good morning. Mike Ossorio, Collier County contractor licensing supervisor. I'd like to point to your attention, Mr. Jackson was going to ask me a question pertaining to his contract. I direct the board's attention to E-3. It says Florida Suncoast Contractors, Incorporated, license number CGC 1509181. Obviously that's not true. Mr. Mantua has been in my office several times in January and also in December of '05 . We've counseled Mr. Robert Mantua referencing about the need to get an aluminum license in Collier County. We provided him with all the information necessary. One of the things that Mr. Robert Mantua was supposed to do to come into compliance back in December, he was supposed to provide all documentation of all his outstanding contracts in this mobile home Page 77 January 17, 2007 and throughout Collier County to reflect a new license number to go forward with a new business. Granted, Mr. Robert Mantua has passed the exam. He passed it in April. And I must say, he passed it with no books, no studying, he went up and took the exam, I think it was Gainesville Independent -- no, I'm sorry, it was Prometrics, and he's passed the exam. Clearly, that he worked without a license under the ordinances of Collier County, and I refer you to Section 2006-46, 4.1.6, disregard of violating performance of his contract and business in Collier County of any building safety, health, insurance of workers, compensation laws in the State of Florida or ordinances of this county. Obviously we're talking about working without a license. You can see in depicted number on E- 3. His new certificate number is 29067. I want to make sure we understand it has nothing to do with the CGC license which was stamped on there inappropriately. His new license number is 29067, and it's aluminum contracting, with no concrete. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Ossorio, he also holds this GC, general contractor's license? MR. OSSORIO: A general contracting license has nothing to do with his business. MR. JOSLIN: Nothing at all? MR. OSSORIO: Nothing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Whose is it? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Robert Mantua, maybe he can answer that question. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does it qualify Florida Suncoast Contractors? MR. OSSORIO: No, it doesn't. MR. JACKSON: I believe the gentleman's name is Richard Drass from Sarasota. I've been trying to get ahold of him for quite a few days, unsuccessfully. Page 78 January 17, 2007 MR. JOSLIN: So in reality there is no Florida Suncoast Contractors, Incorporated with a licensed qualifier? MR. JACKSON: Florida Suncoast Contractors, Incorporated is now qualified by Robert Mantua under his aluminum license. MR. OSSORIO: As of April. This contract was dated December '05. Mr. Robert Mantua got a proper license in April, which is several months later. The question that you have to ask yourself is, Mr. Robert Mantua pulled a building permit in November '06. What did he pull that building permit under? What is he supposed to be building for Mrs. Salwasser? Those are the questions I'd have to ask Mr. Robert Mantua. But I have no further questions. Do you have any questions for me? MR. JACKSON: No, I don't. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Mantua, do you have any questions of Mr. Ossorio? MR. MANTUA: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: People, you need to be careful what you're saying, because I can hear everything that was just said over the mICS. Okay, next witness. MR. JACKSON: I have no more witnesses. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. With that, Mr. Mantua, it's now your turn. If you would come up here to this podium. I'm sorry to be swinging back and forth here. Do you have any witnesses or do you just wish to testify yourself and present? MR. MANTUA: I just wish to testify myself. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, fire away. MR. MANTUA: Well, is this my point now at this time to defend myself or -- Page 79 January 17,2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. MANTUA: I just wanted to make sure. I didn't want to break any protocol. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, fire away. MR. MANTUA: Richard Drass was pimping his license to me. Michael Ossorio had settled that, me and him had discussed that with Allen -- Mike, what was that gentleman's name? MR.OSSORIO: Name is Allen Gennett (phonetic). CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The proper word is selling his license to you. MR. MANTUA: Well, it wasn't the right thing to do. We found that out. We tried diligently to resolve the matter. As soon as Michael told me we couldn't do it, I asked him when the next test was. He signed me up for the next test, which was within a week or two of him telling me. I went down and took the test, passed it, no problem. We tried to resolve every matter we had out there. They were out of town when this was all going on so we couldn't present them with a new contract. When they got back in town -- they were out of state, they're snowbirds. When they got back in town, as far as the contract goes, that's when I talked to them about the stuff. I said, look, we stopped work, we can't do this door that you were sold. I don't know what we can do. I even offered to them at one point to refund part of their money, everything except for what we had physically invested, the man hours, the permit price, the materials that were out there. I said, I have no problem with that. I said, I'll even help you find a new contractor if you want that says they can do it. I said, my professional opinion is that nobody can build hinged doors on a screen room like they want wide enough to fit a Grand Marquis in, plus put a man door in and have a tight gap so that the acrylic windows that they have would make sense and the screens they have would make sense. You're going to have at least half-inch Page 80 January 17, 2007 gaps all the way around. We had this conversation in their driveway as well as on the phone. In their driveway it was with Mr. Ian Jackson there present. Okay. I've tried and tried and tried to resolve this problem. Their contract on their list, and I tried to stick to my list as far as getting people done as close as I can to get everybody done, and Mrs. McGowen was done before then. And she had given me her material deposit as well, and her material was on the ground, and so was Mrs. Salwasser's. But Mrs. McGowen had roof panels, part of her roof panels on the ground. We already went through, had some of hers damaged, so we had to reorder new ones. Ian Jackson was there. He saw the ones come in when they finally came in. We had all the sticks to build -- excuse me, my throat got really dry. We had all the sticks to build, all the aluminum extrusions to build their screen room on their site. We didn't have all their roof panels because they're soft aluminum styrofoam panels, they get damaged real easily. So we tried to order those, you know, like two or three days before we need them so they get out there and go fresh up. As she described before, we have a panel laying on the ground there that we use as a cut table because it's damaged. It's an expensive cut table, it's like a $400 cut table. So I never intended to defraud Mr. and Mrs. Salwasser. Yes, we did do some bad business practices. Yes, I did go through two salesmen, assistants. I went through lead guys, people, I've had trucks and trailers stolen from me. I've had a brake stolen out of their park down the street just recently, aluminum brake, I don't know if you guys are familiar with that, but they're about $3,000. You know, I've had stuff stolen from me. So I went through some hardships in getting these people all done. I've gotten just about everybody done in that park. I have some touch-ups, I have some stuff that isn't exactly kosher that my guys did Page 81 January 17,2007 that looks like, to be frank with you, looks like crap, so I have to rebuild it. I have a customer that they filed an official complaint with Ian Jackson who I'll be seeing you guys again in February for. Is it February, Ian? MR. JACKSON: Yes. MR. MANTUA: That's the one, my guys did a horrible job on her house. She's withheld the final payment, upon my recommendation. I told her hold on to your last payment until we finish and fix your job, because it looks like crap. The people who were involved with doing permitting, you know, I was trying to do -- my people in the office were doing the permitting was the one who signed the check, she applied for the permit. If you look when the application date was on that permit in May, it took several weeks before they came back with a -- or let me know that it wasn't approved. And we -- it didn't get approved until November, but we had to go through and make some changes to the engineering to get it approved. So I mean, we tried and we tried to get this job done. We were told that we could do it by several people in the permitting office, that we could do the jobs under application of permit. And we found out later that was wrong. So we got hit with a bunch of fees because we started a bunch of jobs under an application of permit and the permits -- you know, we got hit with four times the amount on a bunch of them. We've done a lot of things bad. We've done a lot of things good. All our customers are satisfied with the quality of our work, you know, for the most part. I shouldn't say all, 99 percent of our customers are satisfied with the quality of our work since Hurricane Wilma in that park. We have a couple that we're going to resolve. But almost everyone in there is happy. We've done a lot of new work. And like I Page 82 January 17, 2007 said in my opening statement, I really want to see Mr. and Mrs. Salwasser happy. I would like -- I tried to tell them that the door they wanted is impractical, that I had a better solution that was going to cost me more money for a bigger sliding glass door, that I would not charge them any more to do it, but I would do it and it would be a better product than what they were sold. And they didn't want that product either. So that's one of the reasons why we're here and that's one of the reasons why I haven't been back out on their job. I did drop more extrusions off on their job site last week, but we haven't been back out there to actually do any work until we get some resolve of what we want to do. So-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Jackson, questions? I'm sorry, were you finished? MR. MANTUA: Yes, I am. MR. JACKSON: I'd like to touch on the meeting where he offered the alternate door that I attended -- the meeting that I attended with the two parties. This meeting took place 12/20 of '06, just about a month ago. So it's still a year after the contract was signed that this confusion about what's going to be built is still taking place. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Go ahead. MR. JACKSON: I just wanted to make that known, that this meeting was just a month ago. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions? MR. JACKSON: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, then-- MR. OSSORIO: I have a question. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, so do I. A bunch of us do. The door you keep talking about is the change order? MR. MANTUA: That's what -- yes. Yes, it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, now, am I supposed to believe Page 83 January 17, 2007 this grandmother that you were there, or am I supposed to believe you? Who do you think I'm going to believe? MR. MANTUA: You're going to believe the grandmother because I'm a young pup. But I don't think I was there, sir. If I did think I was there -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You would know if you were there. MR. MANTUA: I would know and I would tell you I was. But I don't remember being there. But I believe the grandmother, too, like you do. And she says I do, so I can't -- you know, I've got to respect my elders. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So why is the door at issue-- MR. MANTUA: -- I can't call her a liar outright. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, you can't. MR. MANTUA: But I will if I have to. Because I wasn't there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't go there. So why should I even care about this door? Because if this door cost you more money, so be it. MR. MANTUA: Exactly. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've got a change order for it and I don't care if you make a profit on this job. MR. MANTUA: I don't care if the door cost me $20,000, sir. I would put the new door I proposed into her house that I proposed with Ian Jackson there on their driveway. The other door that she wants built, they're not going to be happy with, sir. It's not practical. I couldn't find an engineer who would engineer it, I'm sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then if you would pay $20,000, why didn't you just give them their money back and not come here today? MR. MANTUA: I offered it to them. They wouldn't accept it. I offered what I told you before. I offered everything but what we had invested in the project. Page 84 January 17, 2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Response from the county without calling the witness back? MR.OSSORIO: Mr. Mantua, you just applied for a building permit, did you not? MR. MANTUA: Yes. MR. OSSORIO: Then what was in the building permit would you say reflects what is on the contract to build for Mrs. Salwasser? MR. MANTUA: What's in the engineering, it's general broad engineering from Bennett's Book. It doesn't specify the engineering for that door. It's broad engineering out of Bennett's Book for things such as a screen room and a carport. MR. JOSLIN: Is this like a base book that's used commonly in the industry -- MR. MANTUA: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: -- just to get a format of ball park things that are-- not a real engineering that would do her house -- MR. MANTUA: No, no, it is an engineering book that you would pay an engineer for it. And it's just a general engineering book that you get, and that's what the county requires for engineering. MR. OSSORIO: But it does depict what's going to be built out there per engineering. MR. JOSLIN: Right. MR. MANTUA: It's not job specific. MR. OSSORIO: Let me ask you a question: Would it be fair to say that the engineering you submitted is not what you're going to be building on Mrs. Salwasser's unit? MR. MANTUA: I am going to build 90 percent of everything but the door out of that book, yes. I will be building everything but that door out of the book. I can't find any engineering in the book for that door. Everything that has been built. That wall that you guys see there that doesn't look very exaborate (sic), that structure needs a roof on it and then that door and it's done. Page 85 January 17, 2007 I mean, minus the windows and screen. But the majority of the structure is built. Everything else, needs a ceiling and windows, and that structure can be done. MR. BLUM: You've heard Mrs. Salwasser say she really doesn't want any part of you anymore. MR. MANTUA: I understand that. MR. BLUM: And you know they've given you 13,000-some odd dollars. If you were to remove all usable materials from the job site, what would you estimate your value is in this job? MR. MANTUA: I don't have the exact numbers on me, but I would estimate my value of the job would probably be close to, I want to say, $7,000, $6,000 on the job right now. MR. BLUM: So you've already done almost half in the year and you'd be willing to return $6,000, round numbers to this lady, is that all? MR. MANTUA: Round numbers, I'd be willing to return 7,000, just because the aggravation that's gone on. MR. BLUM: I just want to get that number in my head. Thank you. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Robert Mantua, can you specifically tell me a date when you notified Mrs. Salwasser that your contact was not -- you were not able to perform due to the fact that your salesman sold something that was not able to be engineered? What date was that? MR. MANTUA: I don't have that date written down or anything. I didn't -- it was right when they got back, and it was also over the phone on the occasion when I talked to them as well, I had stated that. And that's one of the reasons why we stopped, you know, over the phone when I talked to her after the third payment was made, after we were on the job for a week and a half. We tooled around and tooled around with the project. We couldn't get the doors right to do them right, couldn't find the Page 86 January 17, 2007 engineering to do them right, so we stopped and then we called Mrs. Salwasser and said, hey, we're going to have to wait until you get back in town. And then when they got back in town, I reiterated the point that we couldn't do what was sold to them. MR.OSSORIO: You're under oath. How many -- would it be something fair to say that it's not uncommon for your company to work without a building permit and you got paid in full by homeowners? MR. MANTUA: Not any longer it's not. MR. OSSORIO: But it has happened. MR. MANTUA: It has happened. And we are working with Ian Jackson and yourself to resolve all matters that were going that happened during that. MR. OSSORIO: So there's a list of maybe outstanding homeowners that something was constructed without any building permits. MR. MANTUA: Yes, there is a list. And we are working through, like I said again with your office to resolve those problems. Because we were told right after Hurricane Wilma and then after the code changed and the building department looked like a bomb hit it because you had so many blueprints in there, we were told twice that we could construct these proj ects under application of permit. MR.OSSORIO: Okay, so it would be fair to say that -- you would tend to agree with me that if Mrs. Salwasser didn't confront you with a building permit, you think that you should have gotten something with no permit, maybe the sliders and the doors in there? MR. MANTUA: We would have gotten the permit on her project. We would have gotten the permit on her project. As you see, we applied for it, we intended to get it. MR. OSSORIO: Well, only because she confronted you with it. MR. MANTUA: No, we applied for it in June before we -- an Page 87 January 17, 2007 ample amount of time. We applied for the project, her permit was going to be applied for or had been applied for and was going to be picked up. MR. OSSORIO: Have you ever seen the red tag for code violations on other permits similar? MR. MANTUA: What do you mean? MR. OSSORIO: Have you ever been issued a stop work order for working not per engineering specifications on other jobs? MR. MANTUA: We had -- the only -- red tag for inspection purpose? You mean, once it's inspected, is that what you're talking about? MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, in general. In your business -- you haven't been a contractor for years, you've only been a contractor for ten months. MR. MANTUA: In Collier County, that's correct. But I have been contracting in Michigan and in Florida. But up until just recently, I have not had a red flag on any of my jobs. I have one red flag for sure that I can think of off the top of my head. I don't think there was any others for inspection purposes for a Mrs. -- lot 124, I believe was the Marco Shores Estates, Mrs. Straw. Rita Straw. And it was they just needed another document out of the engineering book for connecting a beam to a house connection. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio, why would he have stop work orders when there's no permits? MR. OSSORIO: Well, some he has got permits for. He has jobs out there with permits. MR. LEWIS: And you get a stop work order when you don't have a permit. MR. MANTUA: I have gotten those. I have gotten stop work orders for jobs without permit, so that's what we brought to your attention and we're working through your office to resolve those problems. Page 88 January 17, 2007 MR. OSSORIO: Just one more question and I'll give the floor to the chairman. 105.1, section permits under the Florida Building Code of building permits. Do you agree that you worked at Mrs. Salwasser's place with no building permit? MR. MANTUA: I agree I was on there without a permit. There was application of permit but we did do work on her project without a permit. Fully stated. MR. OSSORIO: I have no questions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have any questions? MR. GUITE': When did you realize that you couldn't build that door that you sold in that change order? MR. MANTUA: About two weeks after we started the job. About a week and a half, two weeks after we started the job. And we tried and tried. We went through a lot of material. We had a lot of stuff that went to the scrap yard because we had some prototypes, and it just wasn't working. MR. GUITE': Was that before or after you got your check for being on the job for more than a week, which would be the third draw? MR. MANTUA: That was after. MR. GUITE': Which was very creative the way you write that out, that if it takes more than a week, you get another draw. I've never seen that before. MR. MANTUA: That's very typical on commercial projects. It's usually 30 days, but it's, you know -- MR. GUITE': This isn't a commercial project. MR. MANTUA: I understand, it's a residential, that's why the timetable's shorter. MR. GUITE': I'm a contractor doing business for 30 years, and I've never seen that except on a high-rise or something like that. MR. MANTUA: We delivered the material on the job. We didn't start that job the day we delivered the material. Okay. If you Page 89 January 17,2007 look at the check dates there, they don't correspond -- MR. GUITE': That would be the second draw. MR. MANTUA: The second draw, we didn't start the job -- MR. GUITE': The third draw -- MR. MANTUA: -- on the day we got that second draw. We waited some short period of time and then we started the job. MR. GUITE': But did you collect the money from her after you found out that you couldn't build this door? MR. MANTU A: No, I did not. I stopped everything. I did not collect any funds after we figured out that we couldn't build this door. MR. GUITE': Well, none were due then until the end. MR. MANTUA: That's correct. MR. GUITE': So why didn't you just stop immediately when you -- MR. MANTUA: We did stop immediately when we figured out we couldn't build the door . We stopped everything. We stopped collecting money, we stopped working. We brought -- MR. GUITE': But there was no money due -- MR. MANTUA: -- some materials out there afterwards. MR. GUITE': But there was no money due then. MR. MANTUA: No, there wasn't. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I just got one last question. That day that you collected your second draw for materials being delivered, where did the truck drop those materials? MR. MANTUA: On her job site. And those are what's built. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Even though we have testimony to the contrary? MR. MANTUA: How big of a truck is she talking? She said a big truck with a ton of materials. She wasn't there to see it. That's-- as much materials as on there, you have header channel, you have Page 90 January 17, 2007 two-by-three extrusions, you have three-by-three extrusions. When it's laid out on the ground it looks like a lot of material. When it's standing up, it doesn't look like much. That's everything that was brought out there that day. MR. GUITE': But if it looks like a lot of material laid out on the ground, Johnny D, I guess as you call him, said there was no material there when he went back. MR. MANTUA: He has told me in the -- told me the opposite. He told me that he received a call from Mrs. Salwasser releasing all funds. And he's held onto checks for several of my projects for customers who are snowbirds, and he's never released a dime to me unless he hears it directly from the homeowner. And which I'm grateful for, because I don't want to have these arguments like this. MR. JOSLIN: Do you have any other jobs going on in the same project? MR. MANTUA: In the same park? No, hers is the last one and then we had some repairs of other stuff that had happened in the park. MR. JOSLIN: Under permit? MR. MANTUA: We have one project that was completely done without permit, and my guys screwed it all up and I'm working with Mr. Ian Jackson about it. And I don't know how or why it got started without a permit or anything. And I've fired 90 percent of my employees. I'm down to me. MR. GUITE': Do we have any more complaints, Mr. Ossorio? MR.OSSORIO: Mr. Jackson will elaborate on that. MR. JACKSON: I have two other complaints from homeowners on the same street in which Mr. Mantua's been served letters for the February hearing. Regarding code violations, mainly. MR. JOSLIN: Having to do with permitting? MR. JACKSON: Correct. Jobs are complete with either no permit or a permit applied for. MR. OSSORIO: In your best estimate, Mr. Jackson, when you Page 91 January 17, 2007 were on that, I guess it's an RV park or some kind of park we're talking about there -- MR. JACKSON: Correct. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, we're -- excuse me, Mike. It's this gentleman's time, not ours. So we need to let him finish in his questioning. MR. MANTUA: No, I'm done, go ahead. You guys -- because we'll all interject like it's a big happy conversation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't think it's pertinent anyway. Anybody else? MR. OSSORIO: What's the mood in the park? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Whoa, whoa. Let's don't go there. MR. MANTUA: Are we asking me or him? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Jackson. He was there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's don't go there. I'm just looking at this one case. I don't want to do anything that may prejudice what we hear next month. Anybody have any other questions? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Mantua. Do you say the A? MR. MANTUA: Mantua, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Do you have any other or more evidence to present? MR. MANTUA: Not at this time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. With that, Mr. Jackson, closing arguments? MR. JACKSON: Once again, I would just like to summarize that there have been two periods of time where the job was abandoned for a period greater than 90 days. One of which 150 days approximately, one of which approximately 160 days. The only construction that has taken place was done in violation of the Florida Building Code, doing the work with the permit not Page 92 January 17, 2007 being issued. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Mantua? MR. MANTUA: I understand we're here now, we're to the point where I'm not going to work on their project. Nobody's going to want me to. The homeowner doesn't want me out there. I have no problem subbing it out to another company of their choice, paying for it. I have no problem having them work under my permit that's already on the project. I have no problem doing whatever we need to do to resolve this problem and get these people happy. We went through a lot of turmoil in the short period of time we decided to come to Florida, do business and work down here. We've learned a lot of things. And I think -- and it's a learning problem. I asked Ian Jackson the other day for the code book that he had a copy of in his hand and he wouldn't give it to me. So it's not a place where, you know, you ask for something you get it. You have to research it and figure it out and find out yourself. Which I can understand, I'm a big boy, I guess I should do that. But we've done a lot of things in this community that have been good. We've done some things that weren't good. We want to resolve this. We want to keep doing business in Collier County. I like working with Michael Ossorio and Ian Jackson. They're fair people. They do everything, you know, to the book and to the law. But they've never been rude or impolite to me. They've always been really good. I like the people in this community, in this park that we're working in. A lot of them like us. There's a slight few that don't. All I can say in closing is I apologize for any aggravation that's gone on during this. I have fired just about everybody in my organization. As Mrs. Salwasser, Ian Jackson can testify to, I was the only one working on Mrs. McGowen's job, because I couldn't trust anyone else to do the job anymore. I don't have any good qualified employees Page 93 January 17, 2007 down here in Collier County to do the job anymore, so it's me doing the proj ect. So we're working on it. And we're learning. It's been a short time since I've had my license in Collier County, and it's a learning process. And I think this is the last set of problems. And all these problems we're going to see here today and in February, the two complaints he has, are all from the same time frame, same group of things. Because we had, you know, so many things on our pile. We handled them all the same way. So they're going to be the same problems. And now that we learned the problems that we had before, we are correcting those and moving forward in the proper direction. No matter how much a customer yells at us to get the job done, we'll wait for the permit no matter how long it takes, whether it takes a day or six weeks. Whatever it takes, we're going to do it. We're not collecting major deposits anymore. Our policy now is to collect at the most $1,000 period from the customer. If the job is under $5,000, we're not even collecting a deposit. If it's over $5,000, we're collecting $1,000 for engineering and permitting and all the other costs involved in getting the job started. Some of the things that we're doing to move forward. We're not doing any of the stuff that we did before any longer. So I think that sums it up. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very good. Thank you, sir. I'd like to have a motion to close the public hearing. MR. LEWIS: So moved, Lewis. MR. BLUM: Second, Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. Page 94 January 17, 2007 MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. You can have a seat, both of you. MR. MANTUA: By the way, Mr. Chairman, this seat here is broken. It's coming out of the floor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, do you need to briefus again? MR. NEALE: I think everybody can remember what we said before. Just the fact is that the charge in this case is a different charge than in the last case. In this case the charge is abandoning a project in which the contractor is engaged or under contract as a contractor. Proj ect may be presumed abandoned if the contractor terminates the project without just cause or fails to notify the owner in writing of the termination of the contract and basis for same, or fails to perform work for 90 consecutive days without just cause and no said notice to the owner. That's the only charge. There is a count two, I'm sorry, which is 4.1.6, disregards or violates in the performance of the contracting business in Collier County any of the building, safety, health, insurance or workers compo laws of the State of Florida. So those are the two charges that you have to evaluate. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I have a motion? MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, I move that we find the defendant, Robert Mantua, d/b/a Florida Suncoast Contractors in Case No. 2007-02, License No. 29067, in violation of count one, 4.1.3, abandoning a construction proj ect on which he or she is engaged under contract as a contractor. And count two, 4.1.6, disregards or violates in the performance of his contracting business in Collier County the building safety, health, insurance and workers' compensation laws in the State of Florida or ordinances of this county. MR. BLUM: I second that motion. Page 95 January 17,2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have a motion and a second. Any discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Unanimous. Can I render the reading of the previous case to this as well? Okay. So you don't need any of the reading? MR. NEALE: What I'd like you to do is just read that the board has found in violation of the two counts pursuant to the complaint. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Board of County Commissioners versus Robert Mantua, d/b/a Florida Suncoast Contractors, Incorporated. Case No. 2007-02. License No. 29067. Order of the board this date to Mr. Mantua, that he is the holder of that license number. He was present, not represented by counsel. And all notices that were required were done. And the allegations set forth in the administrative complaint are approved and incorporated herein, referenced as findings of fact. Now, with the penalty phase. Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Yeah, I'd like to just go over the sanctions once again, because they are a little bit more detailed. He's been found in violation of the two different counts in the ordinance, which are abandonment and disregarding or violating the Page 96 January 17, 2007 laws and rules of Collier County or the State of Florida. You have 10 options as to sanctions: One is revoke his Certificate of Competency. Two: Suspend the certificate. Three: Deny the issuance or renewal of the certificate. Four: Probation for up to two years under the supervision of this board. Five: Restitution in an amount to be determined by this board. Six: A fine not to exceed $10,000. Seven: A public reprimand. Eight: A re-examination requirement. Nine: A denial of the issuance of permits, or requiring issuing of permits with conditions. And 10: Reasonable and legal investigative costs. In determining those sanctions, the board shall consider five different elements: One: Being the gravity of the violation. Two: Being the impact of the violation. Three: Any actions taken by the violator to correct the violation. Four: Any previous violations committed by the violator. And five: Any other evidence presented at the hearing relative as to the sanction that is appropriate for this case. The board also shall issue a recommended penalty to the state board. And the three options there are: No further action, recommendation of suspension, revocation or restriction of the registration, or a fine. MR. BLUM: Mr. Neal, would you mention those five things real quick again? MR. NEALE: Sure. Gravity of the violation. Impact of the violation. Actions taken to correct the violation. Previous violations committed. And any other evidence presented that's relevant to the sanction. Page 97 January 17, 2007 MR. BLUM: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Zachary, county's recommendations? MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Ossorio would have those. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I mean Mr. Ossorio. I'm looking here and saying there. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I've had Ian Jackson for many months now. I instructed him to call Robert Mantua on a daily basis, and he did that, every day. And we did spend some time and effort on this case, like we do all the cases. But this big a case we spent a lot of time on. So I'm going to recommend we issue the investigative costs, $2,000, be paid in 30 days. We suspend his license for two months. We suspend his building privileges for two months until he comes back to the licensing board to tell us that he has paid Mrs. Salwasser in full a restitution of$13,781.50. And the reason why that is, is that contract was written one, against code. And two, this contractor did not fulfill his obligation to this homeowner to build what was supposed to be per contract. And that's between -- internal between his two employees. But Mrs. Salwasser should not have to go ahead and suffer for his bad business. And lastly, there's a $5,000 penalty or fine that should be paid to the Board of County Commissioners within three months. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have one question for you also. Have you contacted Investigator Gomez with the State Licensing Board regarding the holder of this license, the GC license? MR. OSSORIO: I believe back in December we did submit all that to the BPR. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, what I'm finding is if I go directly to -- you've met him, haven't you? MR.OSSORIO: Yes, I have. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Up in Fort Myers? He's just taking them himself. But whoever this character is, that needs to be stopped Page 98 January 17, 2007 also. Okay, so let me go back. License suspended 60 days. Restitution, 13,781.50. Fine, 5,000, due in 90 days. Investigative costs, 2,000, due in 30 days. And recommendation to the state, you didn't address. MR.OSSORIO: I believe this is a license that's not really particularly regulated by the DPR. But I will forward it to the Eckland's (phonetic) crime unit for a refresh review. So I have no recommendations to put forth. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We only do that because they're registering with the state; is that not correct? MR. OSSORIO: Yes, he's not registered. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, got you. MR. OSSORIO: But I do want to make sure you understand that when we suspend his license for two months, if he complies with what we request and clean up the building permits, obviously he can't pull anymore building permits hopefully. If he does comply within two months, I do want him to be able to come back to the licensing board to argue his case that he's done everything we've asked and if possible if he could waive the $5,000 fine which is due in 90 days. MR. JOSLIN: One last question, Mr. Ossorio. You just mentioned a few minutes ago, and I know this is getting off the subject a bit, but Mr. Jackson had two or three more cases that were involved in permitting to complete two other homeowners that are under the same situation that this one is. Did they need the final permit or permits to finalize the job; is that the case? MR. OSSORIO: I believe there might be some issues. I don't want to speak for Mr. Jackson, but I believe there are issues of -- code issues, maybe not building something per engineering specification and also code violations for no building permit. So we're going to work with Mr. Robert Mantua about that in the next couple of weeks, hopefully. Page 99 January 17,2007 But I want him to have the opportunity to get a fresh look at his company . We suspend his license, no building permit pulled, let him continue to work on the building permits that are out there, to get them resolved and pay his investigative cost to us, reimburse Mrs. Salwasser. And then have the ability within two or three months to come back to the board and say, you know what, the proof is in the pudding, I did what I needed to do. He stands here before you and says that I'm a learning curve and I'm going to be this contractor, I'm here to stay. Well, let him prove it. Ifhe doesn't, let's go after him for a $5,000 penalty in three months. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So in essence you're asking for a suspension of permit pulling privileges. MR.OSSORIO: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ifwe suspend his license, he can't work on the other jobs. MR.OSSORIO: Well, if we suspend his license, we can stipulate that he can work on the permitted job site. Obviously he has permits out there that we want him to finish. So yes, he just won't be able -- his license will be suspended. His license will be suspended for building permit pulling. In other words, he won't be able to start any new projects until he cleans up what he needs to clean up. MR. JOSLIN: But these ones that are sitting up as Mr. Jackson mentioned that are in need of a permit in order to finalize them, if he cannot pull permits, then these people are going to be out in the wind with no way to get theirs finalized ifhe can't pull a permit to finish those. Is there a way that you want to stipulate that -- MR.OSSORIO: You can ask Mr. Robert Mantua, are there any building permit questions out there that he's done work with no permits? MR. MANTUA: There are some that we still have to pick up. Page 100 January 17, 2007 And Ian and I -- like I stated, permit pickup will not allow me to pick them up with my license suspended. I will tell you this, I will not contract a Collier license no matter what happens with anything. I will give Ian a list of the ones that we still have outstanding that we have to pick up. And then you guys maybe possibly do a stipulation where that's the only ones I'm authorized to touch, period. And then everybody else, if they -- you know, in two months or 90 days, what he just said, we can continue on. But yeah, I'll give Ian a list within a week of today and go back to my files and give him a list of everything that's out there that might need to be fixed or has permits. And then we can -- Ian and I can work on that. MR. JOSLIN: Just off the top, how many do you think we're talking about? MR. MANTUA: He showed me a list of 18 or 20 houses that were still out there without the permits completely applied or completed. They're applied for and not completed. MR. JOSLIN: Are the jobs completed themselves? MR. MANTUA: The jobs are complete, customers are happy. MR. JOSLIN: So all we have to do is get the permits, finalize them and then those are gone. MR. MANTUA: Exactly. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Ossorio, let's put it back to you. Is this something that you want to do or recommend? MR.OSSORIO: I did not know there were 18 of them. MR. MANTUA: I don't know if that's a true number. He showed me a list and I had told him I was going to review those lists. Most of those probably are already settled. But there might be, you know, out of the list he showed me is 18 to 20 houses that-- MR. JACKSON: I may be able to clarify a little. I gave Mr. Mantua a list of his permits, not knowing whether they were finished, not finished and what status they were in, for him to look into it and Page 101 January 17, 2007 make sure that everything was straightened out. I know of two, and I'm sure there are more, but I know of two that require permitting right now. MR. MANTUA: I'm sure there are more, too. Because when we were doing all that permitting problem, it was when Collier County was backed up six, eight weeks, and we didn't get everything exactly how we're supposed to, so -- MR. JOSLIN: So it's a little involved then. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: At this point, okay, that's it. Thank you, Mr. Mantua. MR. JOSLIN: If there's 18 other permits out there that need to be permitted only, and the jobs are completed, then if we suspend his permitting privileges, he can't pick up his permit at the County -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There's a possibility they won't pass code and have to be torn down anyway. MR. BLUM: Let's let Mr. Jackson and Mr. Ossorio have the latitude to make those decisions. MR. NEALE: Mr. Ossorio says if there's a stipulation in the order that allows -- that says the license is suspended for pulling of any permits other than those for which he has already contracted jobs and allow him to discredit that at the discretion of the contractor licensing staff, I think that would be permissible. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I got a real problem. And Mr. Ossorio, I'm going to throw it right back at you. The last one should have been revoked and this one should be revoked, too. MR.OSSORIO: Yes, you're right, it should be revoked. But the problem is it's not going to solve the influx of somebody coming in next week. This is the first time Robert Mantua has been in front of this licensing board, and I'd like to see that we get everyone satisfied in that park. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I mean, I'm dealing with a guy-- Page 102 January 17, 2007 MR. OSSORIO: He has a business, he's not going to pull anymore building permits. We stopped him from contracting for anything new. But he stands here before you as a man that says that I'm trying to make the best of it and I've fired everyone, and I'm going to go ahead and take care of Mrs. Salwasser. Well, let's see. Now, granted, it's an uphill battle. I don't know if he's going to win it. But he's not going to pull anymore building permits. He's not going to contract anymore because we're going to be out there looking for him. We're going to make sure that his primary concern is -- and Ian's going to be calling him up on the phone and telling him what jobs he needs to do. And we can be right back here next month, if need be. But when we look to the homeowners -- but if shut his license and take his null and void, the next step, the building director is going to give me direction and send letters to all these homeowners with code violations out there that they're going to have to go ahead and find new contractors to fulfill their contract that wasn't done by Robert Mantua and his company. I've had the pleasure, or displeasure, of you taking action against the shutter company, Mr. Parnes (phonetic). I sent out over 110 letters to homeowners for building permit violations, and it was not a pleasure to tell them that the board's took their license away and now you need to come and fix your house and fix your shutters and go find a new contractor, get new engineering. It left a bad taste. But I will do it. But let's see if Mr. Robert Mantua is going to do it. He's not going to pull anymore building permits. He's not going to do anymore work. He's going to be suspended. So let's see if he's going to do it. I mean, he told you today that that's what he wants to do, and he can tell you again. I don't know. MR. MANTUA: I agree with Michael Ossorio. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, first of all, I mean, you're lucky Page 103 January 17, 2007 yours is not finished. MRS. SALWASSER: Very. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because a lot of these are probably going to be coming down. I have never -- no discussion, I'm sorry, I can't do that. As far as the other guy and the shutters, he was trying to bring in a contractor who wasn't even licensed in Collier County to fix his problems, and they never were going to be resolved. I have no faith that you're going to resolve yours because I've never seen anybody do it. And especially with 18. MR. MANTUA: I don't know that it's 18, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, even if it's 10, I just don't think you're going to do it. My go on this is to revoke the license. But I'll leave it up to the board. I'm only one vote. MR. HERRIMAN: I don't think the fine is large enough, even though it could be waived ifhe meets all the requirements, because of all the other problems that we don't even know about in that park. Not every customer of his is happy. He already admitted that. How many, two, 10, 20? So I would suggest that the fine would be increased to perhaps $50,000 -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can't go there. Ten is our limit. MR. BLUM: Ten is the limit. MR. HERRIMAN: Whatever the maximum amount is that we would be able to fine and still let it be suspended if we finally find out that everybody's happy. And I don't think that just the refund of the money to this couple is enough. They've been, I think, harmed, high blood pressure problems, whatever, a lot of hassles. And if that was my mother, I'd want him to pay her back all the money plus interest, at least. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I agree. And I understand Mr. Ossorio's position. He's got all these other people he's working with. Page 104 January 17, 2007 And for those of you that are not a contractor, when he goes and pulls permits on these jobs that were done without a permit, if they don't meet code, the county unfortunately has to require that they be torn off and redone. So there's an unbelievable exposure out there. MR. GUITE': Is there a way that we could group all these people together and come back? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. So it's just a matter of what you guys want to do. MR. BLUM: When in doubt, trust in Mr. Ossorio. MR. JOSLIN: I don't think by revoking the man's license, Mr. Dickson, it's going to benefit the residents of Collier County and these people in this park. Because they all talk, they're all in the same park. I think it would be doing a better justice by at least giving him a little leeway, like Mr. Ossorio has mentioned. Granted, we have never had a success rate of being lenient with a contractor that's come back to do the job that we gave him the leniency to do. I've been bitten myself a couple of times. But we've already given one today and I think one more, and let's see how it rolls. And next time maybe we'll go to your opinion and say let's just revoke the license and be done with it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll get postcards on this one, too. In case you all are wondering, I get postcards. They're not signed and they have no return address, and they're all typed. MR. BLUM: This is a little different from the shutter guy. That was possibly even more extensive and even more blatant. MR. GUITE': Ifwe did revoke his license, those two cases next month are null and void, right? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, no, no. Now we're finding out that cases that took place while the individual was licensed will still come before this board. MR. OSSORIO: I agree with you, we will do that, but unfortunately that's not going to entice Mr. Robert Mantua to come Page 105 January 17, 2007 back and see you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, he'll be gone. MR. OSSORIO: So you need to make that decision. How far do you want to push and what -- does Robert Mantua understand the severity of this case. Now he's sitting here talking to you, he understands that, hey, my back's against the wall, I need to do something. MR. BLUM: Did we set a timeline for the restitution to these folks? MR. JOSLIN: Immediately. MR. BLUM: Well, immediate tomorrow, a week, a month, what? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Everything is 30 days. MR. BLUM: Thirty days. So we're going to know before our next meeting whether or not restitution has been made? MR. OSSORIO: If restitution is not made within 30 days, his license is null and void. MR. BLUM: I would go with Mr. Ossorio's original recommendation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Someone make a motion. MR. JOSLIN: I make the motion. MR. LEWIS: Excuse me. Before you do, can I throw something out, too? I agree with Mr. Herriman, the fine is just ridiculously low here. We need to go for the maximum amount of fine on this. The gentleman has admitted up front that he's been working without a license, he's been working without permitting. He went and took the test, did it the first time, no books, no problem, no mess, no fuss. I mean, it's just ridiculous and blatant plagiarism against our laws here in Collier County. And he can't explain that he didn't know because he's licensed in Charlotte County, and they have basically the same law systems we do. Page 106 January 17, 2007 So I think we should consider a larger fine up to the maximum of $10,000 would be my suggestion. Also, I agree with the restitution amount. The Salwassers have been more than patient. It's been over a year, it's 13 months plus right now since the contract was signed. And that's ridiculous. They've had a money outlay, a cash outlay in part up to $13,781 for the past year. And I think that they deserve some compensation for that. Standard compensation for interest-bearing payments is one and a half percent per month on the outstanding balance. I think that is at least due to them. I'd like to see them get a lot more. As far as the investigative costs, $2,000 seems reasonable. I don't see any problem with the suspension as we've been talking about the license. Suspending permit pulling privileges for the minimum of two months. If these -- if there are no more complaints within the two months, then we can reconsider issuing or suspending our suspension of his permit pulling license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, what about interest? MR. NEALE: It's not something we've ever addressed, but I believe that that certainly is something that could be ordered, because it falls within the category of restitution. Restitution as a concept is restoring someone to the position they were in before the event occurred. So restoring to that position would be the funds they expended plus the interest that they could have earned during that period of time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But not credit card interest rates, right? MR. NEALE: What I'd have to see is what judgment interest is now. Do you know what it is, Robert? MR. ZACHARY: No, I don't. MR. NEALE: We could have it be as the standard interest that's paid on judicial judgments. That could be the amount. We should research that. Page 107 January 17, 2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does that sound good, Bill? MR. LEWIS: Yeah, I could go with that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I agree with you. Okay, I've got it written down, if you want me to make it. MR. LEWIS: Go for it. MR.OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to clarify. When you said interest, because one check was issued in January -- or December, one check was issued in June, and May. So how-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We just went from credit card interest to judicial judgments. My motion will be one year's interest on 13,781.50 of whatever current judicial judgments is bearing. Which will be more than half of what 1.5 percent credit card rates are. I'm not going to do nickels here. MR. OSSORIO: Gotcha. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I move that license No. 29067, which is held by Robert Mantua, number one: That his license be suspended for permit pulling privileges for a period of 60 days. That will be determined after that period if the following items take place. Number two: Restitution be given to -- I've got to find their name here. Well, it's to the county, Collier County Commissioners on behalf of the Salwassers in the amount of $13,781.50 to include one year of interest at whatever the going rate is for judicial judgments, which will be researched and included in the order. Number three: $10,000 fine be imposed. That will be due in 90 days and may be waived, depending on the compliance of all the other items and other cases involved. Number four: A $2,000 fine of investigative costs to be due and payable in 30 days and will not be waived. And no recommendation to the state. MR. JOSLIN: Second the motion. MR. HERRIMAN: Question. Do we have a time limit on the restitution? Page 108 January 17, 2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Restitution is immediate. Which it's-- after 30 days, ifhe doesn't do restitution at 31 days, his license is revoked. I should go back and amend my -- if the other items do not take place within the time frame as specified, License No. 29067 will be automatically revoked. Restitution is due within 30 days. If that does not happen, it violates the order of the board and the license is automatically revoked. MR. JOSLIN: I'll amend the second. MR. LEWIS: Les, just a suggestion. You can either amend or not, it's up to you. On the fines, I don't think the fines should be waived at all in this case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I just went with Michael on that one. If this $10,000 -- and I'd like to give Mike the latitude of that, because he's got other cases. And if we can take that $10,000 and use it to take care of these other people, don't you think that's better? MR. NEALE: In Dickson, what I would suggest is it may be waived at the sole discretion of the contractor licensing board. That would take a majority vote of the board to waive the fine. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I'll amend it to that, that the $10,000 fine, which is not due until 90 days, may be waived by a vote of the licensing board. Is that okay, Mike? MR.OSSORIO: Yeah, that's what my recommendation was. I didn't know it had to be majority. But any contractor has the right, no matter if it's stipulated or not, to petition the board to get their fines waived. So I have no problem with that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He comes in here and he's taken care of these other people, and he's got this thing put together, you're going to get your money back to you're finished with him, which is what you want anyway. But he does that, sure. I mean, the board's going to do that. But I Page 109 January 17, 2007 don't think he's going to do it. But prove me wrong. So any further discussion? MR. LEWIS: Yeah, Les, just one other item. I know it's probably on the Salwasser's mind. This monstrosity that's sitting on their carport right now, ifhe pays them back in full, would he be allowed to go back out there and remove those materials from the site without damaging their home? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Boy, that's a good question. MR. MANTUA: I can answer that. I won't take the stuff that's on their home attached. But the stuff that's laying loose on the ground, I'll leave that for them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you want it torn down? MRS. SALW ASSER: Actually, whoever did it, and I know he didn't, it was done right. Except that they're four feet off on the one wall. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But it might save you some money and make up for your pain and suffering. Okay, I can't go into -- I mean, I'm really bordering here. MR. JOSLIN: I can guarantee that probably what will happen is the aluminum company that's going to come in there to reconnect is probably going to tear it down anyway. So I would just have the man go take the -- MR. NEALE: It's really not relevant to this point, I don't think. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You don't think I should worry about it. MR. BLUM: No. MR. NEALE: No, they're getting restitution. Let's see where that is, you know what I mean? At a subsequent time, they could bring back testimony to that added additional cost. But at this point there's no way this board knowing whether it's going to add additional costs, whether it will reduce their cost. You've ordered restitution. Page 110 January 17, 2007 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He is our attorney for this board, the county attorney. MRS. SAL WASSER: He delivered some materials last Friday, which is laying on the ground. He can come and take that. I have no problem with that. And this other panel that he left. He even still left materials that were torn off of our house that are still leaning up against our shed. We can get rid of that. But he's welcome to come and take the materials that are laying on the ground. If he wants to come back and dismantle, I have no problem with that either. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, let's leave that alone until-- you know, until a future date. Let's don't dismantle. MRS. SAL WASSER: All right. But he can come for the rest of it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So I won't address it. I have a motion and I have a second. Is there any further discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for a vote. All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. MR. HERRIMAN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's unanimous. Case No. 2007-02, License No. 29067. Collier County Commissioners, Collier County Florida, versus Robert Mantua, d/b/a Florida Suncoast Contractors. Order of the board is that -- what I've already stated in the Page 111 January 17, 2007 motion, the vote was seven in favor, zero opposed. And that here ends this case. Mr. Mantua, I would love nothing more than you to prove me wrong, but I don't think you'll do it. MR. MANTUA: I'll do it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Prove me wrong. MR. MANTUA: I will, sir. Will I get this in writing? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, yeah. It will be given to you in writing. And I thank you, both of you very much for your time. Thank you for coming before the board. And I hope this all works out to your benefit. That's our intent. MRS. SAL WASSER: I want to thank you all, too. Thank you. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, before we completely close the door on this case, I think it was brought up earlier by one of the board members, the CGC license number that was used as an advertisement and presented itself as a contractor, is there some type of notification process that the staff can do to DBPR that will notify them of the actions of this license and now the refusal of them to answer calls from staff in regards to it? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mike's already done that. We have the number of an investigator in Fort Myers who's extremely aggressive. He's a former detective with Dade County Sheriffs Department. And if you guys get anything like people advertising to sell their license, they show up in these trade magazines, I've been sending mine from the roofing industry, and in five months all those ads have stopped. So I'd be glad to share his phone number. He loves to have faxes sent to him. And he quietly goes out and puts it into snuff. Good investigator, don't you think, Mike? You've met him, haven't you? MR. OSSORIO: Yes, he's very sharp. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If it goes to Tallahassee, it gets lost. Page 112 January 17,2007 MR. OSSORIO: But I've heard from past experience that that's considered a QB violation. And what that means is, is that that license is active and current, but he's on different letterhead. That is a fine of $100 or $200. So I don't know how they proceed with that, but I'll definitely talk with them again. Because I did send it up to Tallahassee. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, did you? MR. LEWIS: Well, if he never applied for a second entity as Florida Suncoast, it's more than just a $100 fine. MR. OSSORIO: Well, I can't debate that with you. I hope we -- I agree with you. But I've heard through channels that it's a QB violation. MR. LEWIS: QB doesn't have anything to do with licensing division -- contract licensing division. QB is a separate division. MR. OSSORIO: Qualified business. That particular business entity, which is Suncoast Contracting, there's no license for that. But there's a license, CGC is active and current, and it is able to do that work -- MR. LEWIS: Which means it's a second entity -- MR.OSSORIO: -- which means that supposedly, quote, unquote he is in contract with his homeowner with this information. That's something that the state would handle. I'm sure they'll do a good job. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, because had you not done that, you probably would have been in jail. Because you know those signs you saw out on 75? There were a lot of arrests taking place for unlicensed contractors. It happens every hurricane. But you have learned a lot. All of us have. We all come from someplace else. Florida does things totally different than every other state. MR. MANTUA: Yes, it does. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Best of luck to everybody. Thank you very much. Case is closed. Page 113 January 17, 2007 Nice job, Ian. Is there any other business? There's nothing on the agenda. Anything to come before the board? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Next meeting is February the 21st. And if you notice, it is again here. I will not be here at the next meeting. Are you going to be here? MR. JOSLIN: Next month, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So my distinguished colleague will run the meeting. But I'll be on a set of skis. Okay. MR. BLUM: Stay off the motocross. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hope I don't come back with a Schwarzeneggerleg. Do I hear a motion to adjourn, if there's nothing else? MR. JOSLIN: So moved. MR. LEWIS: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 12:35 p.m. COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON, CHAIRMAN Transcript prepared on behalf of Gregory Court Reporting Service, Inc., by Cherie' R. Nottingham. Page 114