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CLB Minutes 09/20/2006 R September 20, 2006 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida September 20, 2006 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractor Licensing Board in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson Eric Guite' Sid Blum Michael Boyd (Absent) Lee Horn Richard Joslin Ann Keller William Lewis ALSO PRESENT: Patrick Neale, Attorney for the Board Robert Zachary, Assistant County Attorney Tom Bartoe, Licensing Compliance Officer Michael Ossorio, Contractor Licensing Supervisor Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' ~ICENSING BOARD DATE: SEPTEMBER 20, 2006 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: August 2006 V. DISCUSSION: VI. NEW BUSINESS: Kenya Occhiuzzo - Request to qualify a 2nd entity. Henry J. Walker - Request to qualify a 2nd entity. Sam Shamir - Request to be granted a Residential Contractor license based on highest test score. VII. OLD BUSINESS: Paul Bowersox D/B/A Trojan Pools, Inc. - Review of the sanctions imposed by the Board on May 17, 2006. VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS: IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: Friday, October 20, 2006 Development Services Center 2800 N. Horseshoe Dr., Room 610 Naples, FL, 34104 September 20, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County contractor licensing board, September 20th, 2006. Anyone who needs -- wishes to appeal a ruling of this board will need a verbatim record, which is being taken. I'd like to start with roll call to my right. MR. LEWIS: William Lewis. MR. BLUM: Sid Blum. MS. KELLER: Ann Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MR. HORN: Lee Horn. MR. GUITE': Eric Guite'. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We've got a full board. But we're still -- don't we have a couple of vacancies? MR. BARTOE: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, board members. For the record, I'm Tom Bartoe, Collier County Licensing Compliance Officer. We have one vacancy. I believe the County Commissioners are due to appoint a person to that position next Tuesday. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that a consumer? MR. BARTOE: Yes, it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. While you have the floor, any additions or deletions to the agenda? MR. BARTOE: Staff has no additions or deletions to the agenda. We have an addition to staff that took Mr. Ossorio's place. He didn't think anybody could take his place, but we decided one could. And I'd like to introduce you to our newest investigator, Ian Jackson. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What was the first name? MR. BARTOE: Ian,I-A-N. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I-A-N. Good to have you, Ian. Page 2 September 20,2006 MR. JACKSON: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where are you from? MR. JACKSON: I grew up here in Naples. MR. JOSLIN: Local boy. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aha. So we've got a cracker, huh? MR. JOSLIN: That's a good thing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I couldn't see you, so I thought Lisa had switched jobs, when you got ready to introduce. MR. JOSLIN: Now we can investigate in the woods, too, huh? MR. JACKSON: Yes. Nice to meet you all. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good to have you aboard. MR. BARTOE: I understand Ian likes to check out fishing holes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I assume everyone knows Lisa. She's Public Relations for the County Development Services. Did I get that correct? MS. KOEHLER: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good to have you with us today. Also, minutes, if you'd have had a chance to go through those. I need a motion to approve, or if there's any additions or deletions. MR. GUITE': I make a motion to approve. Guite'. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MR. BLUM: Second, Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. I didn't do a motion on the agenda because there were no Page 3 September 20, 2006 changes. Well, I should. Let's follow protocol. Give me a motion to approve the agenda as written. MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. OSSORIO: For the record, Michael Ossorio, Collier County Contractor Licensing. We do have under new business, I received a phone call last week from Mr. Lambert, and he might want to address the board. As a matter of fact, he's here today, so we want to add him to the agenda under new business. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, motion to approve the agenda as amended. MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. MR. BLUM: Second, Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. We're ready to go. Kenya Occhiuzzo, are you present? MS. OCCHIUZZO: Right here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would come up here to this podium, please. I need for you to state your name and then I'll have you sworn In. MS. OCCHIUZZO: Kenya Occhiuzzo. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give us a brief overview of what you're doing, why you're requesting a second. Page 4 September 20, 2006 MS.OCCHIUZZO: I have a company, we have a fabrication shop for granite. And I already have an installation license, which I would like to use for my in-house installers for my fabrication shop. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And the company you presently qualify? MS.OCCHIUZZO: Is Occhiuzzo, Incorporated, installation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now you want to qualify All Creations in Stone, Incorporated; correct? MS.OCCHIUZZO: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wow, what a packet. Again, just a reminder for all of you, on this packet, and I don't know about the others, please leave them up here on top of the ledge so those can be taken back and shredded. Who's had a chance to go through this? MS. KELLER: I did. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead. Give us just a minute, Kenya. MS. OCCHIUZZO: Sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody have any questions? MR. GUITE': Yeah, I have a couple of questions. Who's doing your installations now? MS.OCCHIUZZO: We have subcontractors. Occhiuzzo, Incorporated was my second company. We've hired subcontractors to do our installs. MR. GUITE': Right. But you want to start another company and hire people in-house? MS.OCCHIUZZO: I already have a company. All Creations in Stone is a fabrication shop. We want to have in-house installers. So we want to be able to go out there and do our own installations instead of having to hire a subcontractor to do it for us. MR. GUITE': If you're licensed already, why do you need another company and another license to go do your installs? Page 5 September 20, 2006 MS.OCCHIUZZO: I'm not asking for a second license, I want to qualify my license for my other company. I already have an install license that I use for my installation company. I have a fabrication shop and I want to be able to hire in-house installers, and I don't have a license for that. So I want to use my first license to qualify my second company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you as confused as I am? MR. GUITE': I am totally confused. I have no idea why you would want to go through all this hassle rather than just go ahead and do your installs under the company that's already qualified. MS.OCCHIUZZO: Well, my installation company is qualified, but my fabrication shop is not licensed to do installs. So if I have an in-house installer who does not have a license, I would like to qualify that company to do the installations in-house instead of going out and hiring a subcontractor to do installations. MR. GUITE': I understand that. But I just don't understand why you would need -- MS. OCCHIUZZO: That's what I was told I needed when I went to the contractor's license. MR.OSSORIO: If you want to conduct business under your letterhead, you need to have a license and a certificate number. That's where the key is. She wants to be able to go ahead and have that name associated as the installer. So when somebody goes into her shop and says, I would like this, this and this, they have a letterhead that says company All Creations in Stone is going to be doing the fabrication and the installing. MS. OCCHIUZZO: Exactly. MR.OSSORIO: And she wants to keep one license separate. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then what's going to happen to the other license? MR. OSSORIO: She'll qualify two companies. MS. OCCHIUZZO: That's what I was told I could do. Page 6 September 20, 2006 MR. OSSORIO: She could drop her one company and qualify this company totally. MR. GUITE': That's what I would do. It would be a lot cheaper, you know-- MR. OSSORIO: You're absolutely right, but -- MR. GUITE': -- without all these headaches. MR. BARTO E: If you look at the last page in the packet, All Creations at the present time only has a business tax for manufacturing. MR. JOSLIN: Currently you're hiring your own -- basically your own company, your second company to do the installs for your manufacturing company? That's what you're doing? MS.OCCHIUZZO: Right now I'm hiring a subcontractor to do my installations. I want to be able to hire my own installers in-house to go out and do my installations. I don't think you understand. MR. JOSLIN: What is the purpose of the second company for the -- MS.OCCHIUZZO: We have a fabrication shop, manufacturing only. MR. JOSLIN: Right. For your second company? MS.OCCHIUZZO: For us to be able to go out and do the job, we have to hire an installer, a licenced installer to do the installations for us. And at that time we're hiring a first -- my first company, Occhiuzzo, Incorporated to do the installations. MR. JOSLIN: Which is still your company, though. MS.OCCHIUZZO: It's a different company, yes. MS. KELLER: Is the ownership different? Is that the issue here, that you want to do your own -- MS.OCCHIUZZO: No. On my first company, I'm Vice President. On this company I'm President. MS. KELLER: And what about the ownership structure? What Page 7 September 20, 2006 are each of those entities? MS.OCCHIUZZO: I have a president and a vice-president on my first company, my husband and I. And my second company is myself and two other co-partners. MS. KELLER: What percentage of ownership -- MS.OCCHIUZZO: Eighty. MS. KELLER: -- do you have in each company? MS.OCCHIUZZO: Fifty on the first, 80 on the other. MR. JOSLIN: How many employees does the installation company employ? MS.OCCHIUZZO: The installation company has, I believe, seven right now, plus the two officers. MR. JOSLIN: Are those same employees going to be working for the new company that you're trying to -- MS. OCCHIUZZO: No, no, no. MR. JOSLIN: You're going to add more employees to -- MS. OCCHIUZZO: That's why I want to hire my own installers in my shop. MS. KELLER: Which you'll own 80 percent of, the second company. And the first company you own 50 percent. MS.OCCHIUZZO: Right, I already own 80 of the second and 50 of the first, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I see this happening more and more, and it's usually with cabinet companies or kitchen tops or where one sells and the other installs. And I'm not a stupid person, but I still don't see why anybody would want to do this. It's too complete sets of books. There's no advantages for taxes or insurance or any other issues. Do you know why people are going this route? MR. OSSORIO: She likes the name. I believe that if you look in the long term, if she establishes herself as a manufacturing company and that name means something, she wants to keep that name Page 8 September 20, 2006 associated with her manufacturing and with the license. But then again, she only owns 50 percent of her first qualifying company, so therefore she wants to qualify two companies. That makes sense. MR. NEALE: And to some extent she's going the opposite direction from what you've just described. She's putting it all under one roof now instead of having it in two separate companies. MR. JOSLIN: In essence you're trying to -- what, are you trying to phase out the second company so you don't have to use the installers that you currently license now? MS. OCCHIUZZO: I don't want to completely phase them out, but I want to be able to have the ability to hire an installer in my own shop if I need to go out into a job and I don't have someone else to back me up and do an installation at the time, yes. MR. JOSLIN: I gotcha. Now you make sense. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, part of the things -- I know some of what she's going through. As a GC I don't have to do that, but I do hire some of my staff out as subcontracted people -- personnel. We do a lot of structural work for other general contractors here in the town. And it's a similar thing. Also, if she wants to hire out to do just installations from another company, she can do that. Whereas through Occhiuzzo, Inc. she may want to separate those two entities. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, and I've had calls from GC's that have hired a particular subcontractor for something like this or it even gets into stone on the exterior where they get the contract and they want to split it, one to the retail sales and one to the installation. Which is perfectly legal. It just seems like a hassle for the GC. MR. LEWIS: Some people think it's just easier bookwork is one reason. MR. OSSORIO: And also, it's confusing to the homeowners or the consumer when they go into the shop and they're looking at this Page 9 September 20, 2006 addenment (sic) and they're saying well, who's doing my work? At least with the license number on the letterhead it shows that she's doing the work or he's doing the work and it's one company. MR. LEWIS: And it also can be a savings in insurance cost, because as you're well aware, our insurances are based on total gross sales. And gross sales of granite and marble can really jack up your costs versus installation and labor costs. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And you do pay extra for any subcontract on the side. Anybody find a reason to deny this request? MR. JOSLIN: Unless anyone else has a problem, I ask to make a motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead. MR. JOSLIN: I make the motion that we approve the packet. MR. LEWIS: I second that motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All in those favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's approved. To you and everyone else that's here for this purpose, all of your files are in this room today. Don't go to contractor licensing today, but you can go there tomorrow and get things taken care of. MS.OCCHIUZZO: Okay, thank you. Page 10 September 20,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wish you well. MS. OCCHIUZZO: Thanks. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Henry Walker, are you present? MR. WALKER: Yes, I am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you follow the same routine, SIr. MR. WALKER: Good morning. My name is Henry Walker. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're a landscaper, right? MR. WALKER: Yes, sir, I do the irrigation end of it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And why are you qualifying a second company? MR. WALKER: Main reason, I want to keep J. Walker, LLC up and running, because I'd like to begin doing landscape lighting on my own just as a single person, single truck. I've been working with PCL Landscape, which is Elapid Capital, for about five years. We are wanting to do bids on larger properties. They have the resources, the capital to be able to finance them, and I've got the manpower, if I can get in with PCL or Elapid Capital. Also, we're getting ready to re-Ietter all the trucks. I'd like to keep all the trucks with, you know, of course the proper numbers and such. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This is all low voltage? MR. WALKER: Yes, sir. MR.OSSORIO: Mr. Walker, you did say you're the irrigation qualifier. What kind of license do you have? MR. WALKER: I have an irrigation license myself. I'm the contractor. MR. OSSORIO: Do you have a landscaping unrestricted or landscaping and irrigation license? MR. WALKER: I'm just irrigation. The landscaping license is also through PCL or Elapid Capital. They've already got that. Page 11 September 20, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, my first question, he has an irrigation license. Does he qualify for landscaping or low voltage lighting? MR. OSSORIO: No. MR. WALKER: No, I'm not -- just so that I'm clear, I'm not trying to qualify the landscaping end of it. Elapid Capital already is through Collier County. All I'm trying to do is tie my irrigation license in with Elapid Capital. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: For? MR. WALKER: So that -- we're trying to get one big package together with Elapid Capital so it's irrigation, landscaping, we have the pest control license for Elapid Capital. When we do communities or proj ects, we like to have it all as one package. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where does the landscape lighting come in? MR. WALKER: The landscape lighting, the only reason I'm qualifying the second company, Elapid Capital, I want to keep J. Walker, LLC because I want to be able to do the landscape lighting. Now, in Lee County I'm okay for the landscape license because it's low voltage with the irrigation license. I'm understanding that for low voltage landscape lighting, they're going to be mandating that and having that into a separate contractor licensing eventually, but they're still talking about that. It's under, I think, it's 78 volts, so everything's safe with that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So under this new license, you're only wanting to qualify the irrigation portion? MR. WALKER: That's correct, yes. That's the only contractor license that I hold is the irrigation license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You okay with that, Michael? MR. OSSORIO: I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with the low voltage licensing. I believe the state's going to be coming down pretty hard on landscapers doing minor incidental Page 12 September 20, 2006 work for low voltage. I don't think your license allows you to do that under irrigation or landscaping. But that's not what we're here to talk about today. So we can-- I'll look at the statutes and call DPR and we'll find out where they're at with this low voltage license through the state. We don't have one. We have a satellite dish license. But the state regulates low voltage. MR. WALKER: Is that something I can contact you on? I've tried Vista Lighting, you know, which is one of my manufacturers that I use -- MR. OSSORIO: Sure, you can -- MR. WALKER: -- and it's been tossed back and forth. They're not sure which way it's going. MR.OSSORIO: We have an office. You're more than welcome to come Monday through Friday. I'm usually available in the morning. And we can discuss it and I can pull some statutes out for you. MR. WALKER: Great. MR.OSSORIO: But you just want to qualify this licensed landscaper for irrigation. MR. WALKER: That's correct. MR. OSSORIO: We used to, many years ago we had a license called landscaping unrestricted. That was an irrigation and landscaping exam. And then the county split it, one to landscaping and irrigation. I suppose this company doesn't have an irrigation license and wants to be qualified to do irrigation, and this is why Mr. Walker is coming in front of you today. MR. HORN: Mr. Walker, question. On this company you're qualifying, unless I'm reading it wrong, it says you're going to have zero percent ownership; is that right? MR. WALKER: That is correct. Page 13 September 20,2006 MR. HORN: Is there a -- any rules or statutes that we have to have a minimum percent ownership if you're qualifying a company here? MR. NEALE: No. MR. HORN: No, okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Whoever makes a motion, be sure to put in your motion specifically that we would only be reacting to irrigation for Elapid Capital, LLC, correct? MR. WALKER: That's correct, yes, sir. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. LEWIS: If the board pleases, I'd like to make a motion to approve the application for second entity for Henry J. Walker to qualify the business of Elapid Capital, LLC for License No. 29830, which in Collier County is an irrigation license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I have a second? MR. BLUM: Second, Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got her. Page 14 September 20,2006 MR. WALKER: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tomorrow, right? MR. WALKER: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I wish you well. MR. WALKER: Thank you. MR.OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, just on these lines is application to qualify a second entity, Tom and I, we're all going to be working on this. I think this is updated, this form. And we're going to sit down and we're going to revamp this and we're going to have a sit-down and we're going to get all the ambiguity out of this thing so it's easy and pleasing to read. And hopefully you'll see a change in the next couple of months when we get out of this renewal process. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That would be wonderful, because it does us no good up here. MR.OSSORIO: No, it's confusing to myself. And one of the policies we're going to implement is that -- the new chapter -- is that when somebody wants to qualify a second entity we're going to have like a pre-app meeting. We're going to sit down with the applicant, we're going to find out, get these answers up front so we can be more informed when we go in front of the board. I'm not saying that we're not. It's just that on face value you look at this and it doesn't say irrigation, it can be confusing to the eye if you're not in the business. So hopefully within the next couple of months we'll have something better for you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I appreciate it. And also, a lot of times we don't take in consideration how much time you guys spend putting these packets together. That's got to be a day. MR. BARTOE: Not us, office staff. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Office? Okay. MS. KELLER: One of the things that we always seem to spend a lot of time on is trying to figure out exactly why they need the Page 15 September 20, 2006 second entity. And we sit up here and try and guess, you know, why. And then the person kind of stands there and maybe they'll tell us, maybe they won't. MR.OSSORIO: Well, like I mentioned to you before is that we are going to have a pre-ap meeting. One of the things I'm going to be looking at is I'm going to have something in writing to you from them saying that -- just for that reason, why. So, you know, you have time to read it over and absorb it and then you can be more informed when you make that decision come the next week. So there's going to be some changes. It's going to be a couple of forms. It's going to be something that says why I want to qualify the company, how much -- you know, something a little more pleasing to read, something easier to understand, since you're not really in the business of qualifying second companies. And I think that's a burden on the applicant that he or she should supply to you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Sam Shamir, are you present? MR. SHAMIR: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you'll come up please, sir. MR. SHAMIR: Good morning. Sam Shamir. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, you're wanting us to -- you're requesting us to grant a residential contractor license based on your highest test score, which I assume is not a high enough test score; am I correct? MR. SHAMIR: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why? MR. SHAMIR: I had 74 percent and I think it's very close. And I did the other half test, I passed the business and law 80 percent. And it took me many, many times to go through this test because I didn't born in this country and I had a little language barrier when I come to certain question. And it's always the same kind of question I Page 16 September 20, 2006 get confused. And I didn't have enough time on any test I took, and I took it many, many times I took the test. And every time I came to a certain point, I didn't have enough time to finish my question. And I think 74 percent from 75, I think it's good. Eighty percent for business and law is very good, too. And I took -- I attend the school for three times already. And I went through many, many years. And I came to this state from N ew York about 10 years ago, and I work for a company. He asked me to come from New York to help him. And I did work for about five years as a superintendent, supervisor, in a building. And it's on my resume over there, you can see it. I have a few more resume with people I helped. Then after four years, he sold his company to MK Developer. I still work one year again with this guy until he brought his people, so I left. Then I had my pressure washer license just to keep myself coming here for this event, because I still have company in New York, and it's by myself, very good company, construction and plumbing and electric. And long-time experience, over 30 years. I'm only in this country 28 years and that's what I'm doing, construction. And I did it before this in my other company, heavy construction. So now I -- and I used to go back and forth in the season to New York, to keep myself here and still, you know, time to time, I -- you know, I help a lot people. I do a little washing, pressure washing. You know, I kept myself busy. But to make a living I have to go to in season to N ew York. And I have my wife here and my son and my mother-in-law moved here, she's sick. And, you know, now it's very hard to go back and forth. So I want to stay here, and I decided to take the license, and I did. And it came to good results. And I have a lot of experience in all parts of the construction. And now -- and I already -- you know, decide to stay here for all year round, so I need to do some business so I can make a living. Page 1 7 September 20, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Why are you trying to take an aluminum contractor license? Seems like you've taken a lot of different kind of tests, including -- MR. SHAMIR: As I say, I took many, many times test. And I thought that if you consider timing, it was exactly after the hurricane. I mean, people knock on my door, because I told you, I'm very professional in all facets of construction, okay. And people knocking on my door because there was a lot of damage in aluminum. And everybody told me, you know, go take the license, it's very, very easy. So do aluminum. You know, it's the winter, and it's easy to work outdoors. So I really tried it. I really tried it. And I read and I took. And I knew this is the only test I have to take, because the business and law I took long time ago, so I knew the business and law will keep me -- other words, I don't have to do it again. Because if I have to do the business and law again, I'm not going to do it because it was very, very hard for me. MR. GUITE': What's the passing score? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Seventy-five. He's got a 74. Business and law is 80, that's good. MR. BLUM: Mr. Shamir, you had a business in New York, it says here, in the Eighties? MR. SHAMIR: I still have the business. SIS Construction. MR. BLUM: Whereabouts in New York? MR. SHAMIR: In Brooklyn. MR. BLUM: In Brooklyn. MR. SHAMIR: Yes. MR. BLUM: New York has a testing procedure, does it not? MR. SHAMIR: No. MR. BLUM: It does not? MR. SHAMIR: No. New York, if you are homeowner and you hire contractor and you take responsibility, you can hire anybody you Page 18 September 20, 2006 want. The only thing, if you don't have license, you cannot get city jobs, you know, bid on city jobs or government jobs. But private jobs you can do. Even if you don't have license. But of course you also have a tax number and this stuff -- MR. BLUM: There is a licensing procedure in New York that I am aware of. MR. SHAMIR: Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. MR. BLUM: I just wondered if you had availed yourself of that procedure in New York, it might lead some credence to our decision here if you had something to show from New York. That's all. I was hoping you did take some kind of a test in New York that would help -- MR. SHAMIR: No, I didn't take any test in New York. And I still have -- it was very, very hard for me to get a notarized letter from the two company I work here. I really couldn't find the people for the company I work. I work here four years for a -- a service, a supervisor at Sapphire Lake, Crown Pointe and Lely. I did for four years supervisor. So I did enough building. So I know exactly the code. And I'm very, very aware of the code of Collier County, the handicap code. MR. BLUM: You show Raymond Building Supply and Naples Lumber as people you do business with? MR. SHAMIR: Yes. MR. BLUM: How do you do business with them if you're not a licensed contractor? MR. SHAMIR: I buy stuff for people. MR. BLUM: You buy stuff for other people? MR. SHAMIR: Yeah, I buy stuff for people. I advise people. I have your letter from very known architect here, and I did help him with his house. MR. BLUM: Is the credit in your name? The credit at these places of business is in your name? Page 19 September 20, 2006 MR. SHAMIR: Yes. MR. BLUM: And they give you credit without a contractor's number? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Of course. MR. LEWIS: Oh, yeah. MR. BLUM: I'm just bringing something out here. MR. SHAMIR: If I go buy window or door or three window or four window -- I bought a small house, 1,400 square feet, and I put over 3,000 extra in a foyer, and I did a beautiful, beautiful house. MR. BLUM: You did an owner-builder permit? MR. SHAMIR: Yes. I had three times owner-builder permit. I build a beautiful house. When the inspector came to the house they didn't believe I did this house, include the pool. MR. JOSLIN: How long has this been? How long ago did you do this? MR. SHAMIR: I build my house, took me about four or five years to build the house. MR. JOSLIN: Four or five years? MR. SHAMIR: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just to get back on track, we have-- in the past we have considered 73's and 74's if one of the other tests passed and there was substantial amounts of attempts to past the test. What we have never considered -- and I always state this in case someone's watching -- is people that come in here below a 70 and they've taken it once or twice, they're absolutely wasting their time with this board, Mr. Ossorio, and you know that. I know you can't deny people from coming if they request, but we've had people come in here in the low sixties and think we were going to give them a free ride. Doesn't happen. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, our policy has always been we recommend to go in front of the licensing board on many occasions, but we also recommend -- and I've been in contact with Mr. Shamir Page 20 September 20, 2006 for many years -- is that we want to see attempts. And if you've taken it, you know, four or five, six times, seven times -- and obviously there is a language barrier -- we support going in front of the licensing board. And that's why we're here today. So we don't-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I was just saying for future reference. Because we did have one guy come in here that there was no way. But I always go back to the guy who was from, I believe it was Poland. We got to know him very well. MS. KELLER: My first meeting, five years ago. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I've never seen an individual try so hard. And he -- MS. KELLER: They were all crying, he was crying, his wife was cryIng. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I thought he was going to -- well, he did start crying when we approved it. And he finally got to a 73 or 74. And I'm sure he's a great asset to this company. MR. BARTOE: But as you've said, Mr. Dickson, some of these people insist on coming before the board when I know in my mind it's not going to be good. But you cannot talk them into retaking the test a couple more times. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I made my statement. Hopefully that would let a few people know that it's not a worthwhile endeavor. I do see he's taken it four times. He started off with business and law. Did pretty well, except in '01 when he first tried. And he's brought that all the way up to 80. I see the 74 hit, grade here in April 1 st of this year. And then he went back and he tried it again in June, which common sense would have told you that he kept improving. But that test kind of got him and he dropped down to a 70. So I can definitely see why you're here and I'm not questioning that. If I was in your shoes, I would have come, too. Page 21 September 20, 2006 Given his experience and the attempts that he's made, credit report's good, everything else is good, I make a motion to approve this license and waive the test score of 74 and validate on his past expenence. MR. HORN: Second, Horn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? MR. BLUM: I just have one question. Mr. Ossorio, Mr. Bartoe, you say you're aware of Mr. Shamir for a number of years? MR.OSSORIO: Yes. MR. BLUM: Do you have any comments to make as far as his MR. OSSORIO: Well, since the motion's already out there, no. But I did have a compromise just in case it wasn't going well for him. If he started to cry, maybe we were going to throw something out there. But in terms of if the board wanted to, we could put him on a limited probation for one year over the supervision of the contractor licensing office to make sure that he's doing what he needs to do. And I'm a firm believer of semantics, you know, argument of the beard, how many hairs does it make a beard (sic). One is not going to make a difference. And I was going to try to tell you that we support his license in every shape and every form. So with that said -- MS. KELLER: I think your time spent might be better with probation with somebody else. So I wouldn't recommend that with him. I would just go ahead and approve it. MR. OSSORIO: Well, that's something that -- I had something on the back burner just in case it wasn't going so well we could do some other calculations. MR. JOSLIN: I also feel the same ideas, I'm just not real content with beginning a time period now of starting to issue licenses for people that have a language barrier. This is why we got another testing facility involved in taking the test, so there wouldn't be a Page 22 September 20, 2006 language barrier. MR. BLUM: Well, they don't address Hebrew, though, unfortunately. MR. JOSLIN : Well, I think we live in America. MR. BLUM: Yeah, I know, I'm with you. MR. GUITE': Careful, the ACLU might -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's don't go down this road. MR. BLUM: I totally agree, but I don't know how we can handle it. MR. JOSLIN: I don't either, except that I believe that, knowing what Mr. Ossorio has said, these are just comments that I'm making so that future people that come in here know that we're not just giving the license away because he tried to take the test or he almost passed it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The reason I made the motion I did was, one, based on his experience, based on his previous attempts, based on his successful passing of the business/law, and based on the fact that he's one point away from the 75 which Collier County requires; whereas, all other counties in the State of Florida require 70. I don't have a problem with us being 75, but he's so cotton-picking close, and I'm not willing to amend my motion. MR. GUITE': I'd like to make a comment that his letters of recommendation are impeccable. So that really swayed me. MR. JOSLIN: I'm in agreement with you, I'm just stating the facts as far as for future people coming in here. MR.OSSORIO: Well, Mr. Joslin, you've got to realize, in the contractor licensing office we are stringent. What you talk about on the board, we talk about in the office. And we're much harder on the applicant than you will ever be. So there's a process we go through. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: By the way, I don't think you have a language barrier. I understood you perfectly. Page 23 September 20, 2006 MR. SHAMIR: It's the writing and reading. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're fine. You're fine. Anymore discussion? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for the vote. All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Congratulations. MR. SHAMIR: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We wish you well. Did you hear me? Go see Maggie tomorrow. Mr. Lambert, are you here? If you would come up to this podium, please, sir. I don't know why he's here and we don't have anything, so -- MR. LAMBERT: Good morning. David Lambert. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Qualifying a second entity, correct? MR. LAMBERT: Yes. Well, actually I'm asking for -- I'm asking to waive the trade exam for competency card for tile and marble. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, let me just give you a quick overview real quick before Mr. Lambert starts. The reason why he's actually here today is not to qualify a second company. Mr. Lambert is a -- he is a state certified building contractor; am I correct? Page 24 September 20, 2006 MR. LAMBERT: Yes. MR. OSSORIO: And Mr. Lambert's been in the business of constructing homes throughout the Vineyards, throughout Collier County for many years. And he would like to obtain a tile and marble exam -- tile and marble license without taking the exam and use his scores from the State of Florida to get a tile and marble license. Remember one of the requirements to get a license is take an exam, show credit and get experience. He would like the board to waive the testing exam due to the fact -- and accept his testing from the State of Florida for that portion of the license. If that makes any sense to you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does he need one as a GC? MR.OSSORIO: No. But he wants to open up another company under another name. And the State of Florida only recognizes if you're going to do business, you do business under one name, one d/b/a. If you want to qualify a second company, you have to go in front of their licensing board. And what he's trying to do is take just his test scores from prior to the ordinance and get a separate license, separate from his certified building license. And we've had someone in the past here before you many months ago, and we've issued -- the previous supervisor, Mr. N onnenmacher, has made exceptions and granted that on his own. And I believe Mr. Lambert had a license at one time for tile and marble. MR. LAMBERT: That's correct. MR.OSSORIO: And unfortunately, since I took over, I interpret the code and I interpret the ordinance a little bit differently. I have no problem with Mr. Lambert coming in front of the board. If he can show overwhelming experience then I'm sure the testing would be superfluous. But I'm not going to open a Pandora's box and let every single Page 25 September 20, 2006 certified contractor in the State of Florida come in here and get a specialty license. That's not what this board's all about, it's not what we're all about. And I believe Lee County feels the same way, Brevard County feels the same way. So if a certified builder can show experience and he's been in the trades and he can persuade the licensing board to waive the testing, I have no problem with that. But that's going to be the board's decision, it's not going to be on our level. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, you want to weigh in? MR. NEALE: Yeah. I agree with Mr. Ossorio's interpretation, that if -- while if they were doing as part of a regular project, they wouldn't need the specialty license. But if they're going to hold themselves out as a specialty contractor, you do need the specialty license. But this board certainly can look at the qualifications of the applicant and say that they can get that specialty license. But I think Mr. Ossorio's taking the correct approach in bringing these type matters to the board instead of just granting them as an administrative matter. It provides more control on the ability of people to just -- you know, you literally could have someone, if they -- if the other approach was followed, someone could get a building contractor's license and then pick up every specialty license in the book without any review by this board. So somebody could be carrying 20 licenses and this board would have never had a chance to look at it. MR. JOSLIN: How long did you hold the tile license? MR. LAMBERT: I think it was four or five years. MR. JOSLIN: And then you became a builder? MR. LAMBERT: No, I was a builder first. MR. BLUM: Here in Collier you had it? MR. LAMBERT: Yes. Page 26 September 20,2006 MR. OSSORIO: Yes. He's a state certified builder. And he worked in the Vineyards for many years with Sam Saadeh and Group. And Nonnenmacher issued him a tile and marble license on the face value of his testing. Do I think he was correct on that cover? Probably not. But, you know, Mr. Lambert, he's been in business for many years here, and he's been a tile contractor and established himself. And he has credentials and he has affidavits showing that he knows how to do tile. And he's taken the building exam. So he's more a building contractor, but he also is tile and marble. He can tell you a little bit more about his business or his past business of being tile and at least get that on the record for you so you can make a decision about it. MR. BLUM: I don't see the test score. Am I missing something? MR. OSSORIO: He's a state certified building contractor. He's taken the exam or they wouldn't have given him a license. To be a state certified building contractor in the State of Florida, I believe it's a 16-hour exam. MR. BLUM: So we're basing this on the test scores as a GC and we're using the letters of recommendation that he's a tile person? MR. OSSORIO: You're not basing the testing on GC, it's a building contractor. Our testing requirements for tile and marble is a three-hour exam. It's a two-hour business and law and a three-hour trades exam, and that specifies in tile and marble. He's taken the 16-hour exam through the state. I don't think there's anything mentioned in there as of tile laying or whatever it might be. But in the ordinance and through past experience, if the board finds that a testing will be impervious to the job he's doing, then he can apply for a license and the exam will just take his exam that he took through the State of Florida, and he can apply for a license as of being a tile and marble licensed contractor and show Page 27 September 20, 2006 credit and show experience. He still has to do all those three applicants (sic). We just don't just him a license if he can't show experience. And he has to have good credit. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Fine. MR. JOSLIN: I think under these -- under this packet and all the information we see here, I think this is kind of a moot point. I'd have no problem at all with granting this gentleman a license. MR. LEWIS: I do. MR. BLUM: So do I. MR. GUITE': I do, too. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I'm also looking at a letter from Ed Perico, who I hold in high esteem. And it's like four pages from the back. Exactly four pages from the back. And it's probably the best letter or the highest recommendation I've ever seen Ed give, even though he's no longer director of the building department. But I see a letter like that, I -- because Ed came up from inspector all the way through the ranks. MR. NEALE: Just for the sake of full disclosure, I received an e-mail from Dave Weston, who's the CFO of Coastal Engineering, yesterday, also recommending -- saying some very good things about Mr. Lambert. MR. BLUM: I have no doubt of Mr. Lambert's expertise and qualifications. He's a great guy. I don't see anything in here that attests to his tile ability, tile -- specifically tile. You're not going to do the work yourself, are you? MR. LAMBERT: No, I'm not. But I've been in supervisor capacity for 14 years here in Collier County. For 14 years. MR. BLUM: I believe you-- MR. LAMBERT: And 25 years-- (Public announcement over loudspeakers.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They'll check it out for us. Page 28 September 20, 2006 MR. GUITE': What kind of experience do you have in tiling? MR. LAMBERT: Just the day-to-day. I installed in New Jersey. I worked as a general contractor in N ew Jersey and in Pennsylvania. MR. GUITE': How long ago was that? MR. LAMBERT: 1979. Started back in '79. I know the codes have changed. MR. GUITE': There's been a lot of changes in the industry since '79. MR. LAMBERT: I know. And I'm current with it because even capacity for the last eight years at Vineyards, I was 75 percent in the field. And I would be the one that would meet with the tile installers and the tile reps and the homeowners in case something came up, to see the work was done correctly. And if it wasn't, it had to get tom out and we'd have to redo it. So-- MR. BARTOE: And Mr. Lambert, you did have a Collier County tile -- MR. LAMBERT: That's correct. MR. BARTOE: -- license-- MR. LAMBERT: Correct. MR. BARTOE: -- for approximately four, five years? MR. LAMBERT: Yes. MR. BLUM: How long ago was that? When did it expire? MR. LAMBERT: From 19 -- no, 2005. Probably from 2000 to 2005, something like that. MR. BLUM: So it only just did expire? MR. BARTOE: I'm sorry? MR. BLUM: His tile license only just did expire? MR. BARTOE: It only what? MR. BLUM: Just did expire? MS. KELLER: Last year. MR. BLUM: Last year? Page 29 September 20, 2006 MR. BARTOE: I don't know. MR. BLUM: That's what I'm hearing him say. I'm asking you to confirm. MR. BARTOE: I don't know. I don't have his folder on his tile license. MR. OSSORIO: It's two years. But he -- it probably wouldn't have made a difference if it was two years or three years. This is the board's decision. I would not give him a license ifhe walked in without going in front of the licensing board. This is something we need to spearhead, we need to go ahead and get some kind of handle on it, due to the fact that I think it was -- the process was flawed. I don't think it was correct. I mean, Mr. Lambert is an outstanding citizen in the community, there's no doubt about it. He's been around forever. But this is a policy that we need to make sure that we understand where we're going with this. Because I know from past experience -- we didn't have any problems with Mr. Lambert, but what's going to stop someone else coming in to get a license and saying, well, there's a complaint on your specialty license. Well, I'm going to close up shop and use my GC license or close up shop and open up another one. And that's something that we're not going to do. And this is why this is -- is this a test case? No, it's just we want to bring it to your attention, we want some direction from the licensing board. Obviously if he can show overwhelming experience, he's been in the business, the trades. Well, that's something that the board can make a decision on, due to the fact that he can waive the testing and just go right into, you know, his experience and his credit. But I don't want to start giving licenses out to certified building contractors and certified general contractors and certified glazing -- glass and glazing contractors for specialty licenses where they have no experience and we have no control over it. This is why we're here. Page 30 September 20, 2006 MR. BLUM: Was there a reason why you let your tile license lapse? MR. LAMBERT: It went to another company. It was qualified -- I ended up removing myself from that company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Lewis? MR. LEWIS: Sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You've been quiet much too long. MR. LEWIS: Thank you. I take that as a compliment. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm waiting to -- you're our general contractor, so I'm waiting for you to weigh in. MR. LEWIS: Well, if the board approves this, you can make sure that I'm going to be standing where Mr. Lambert is next month. I don't think this is right. I appreciate, Mr. Lambert, I know you're an experienced gentleman. I know of your company. Currently you're certified as your own contractor in the state; correct? MR. LAMBERT: That's correct. MR. LEWIS: And you are currently licensing one company? MR. LAMBERT: Correct. MR. LEWIS: Okay. I currently license two companies in the State of Florida with my license, and I had to go through the approval process that you're trying to circumvent, and I will not support this motion. I will not support a second license being granted by this board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a problem -- MS. KELLER: What ifhe takes the test? MR. LEWIS: There's no testing requirements needed. He's a certified general contractor. He can do tile all day long. If he wants to close up Premier Builders or use Premier Builders to do his tile work, he can do that. He wants to operate a new company named DJL General Ceramics and Craftsmen, Inc. It's a whole separate living entity. In Page 31 September 20, 2006 order to do that, he needs to go before the state board. And they will ask him similar questions that we ask him and he will provide all the information that they need. And it just takes time, but I have no doubt that they'll give him the license. MR. LAMBERT: This is not a state license, though, that I'm looking for, so I would not go in front of the state board. It's an LLC, incorporated business. It's not licensed -- needs a competency card. And it's already insured, fully insured. MR. LEWIS: That's true. But you are a state licensed contractor -- MR. LAMBERT: Correct. MR. LEWIS: -- and that overrules what we do here in the county . We abide by their laws. MR. LAMBERT: The state said I did not have to go through the state. It's not a state entity. I don't want to work in Dade County, I want to work here. So they said go to the local county government, and that they have the power, if they want, to waive that or not. That's why I'm asking for that, based on my experience and my reputation here in Collier County. MR. GUITE': I agree with Mr. Lewis. I don't think it's right, I don't think it's fair that any specialty contractor, not that -- you're just doing tile. I'm a tile contractor myself. I'm trying to put that aside. I just don't think it's fair. I just think if you would have just kept your tile license active, then no problem going ahead. Even if you want to reactivate your old license and bring up the old test scores or whatever information that staff has, then that would be a different story. But to try to go around it like you're doing, it's not fair, it's not right. And I think Mr. Lewis is right, that you're going to have not just Mr. Lewis, you're going to have every GC in the county up here next month. MR. LEWIS: Let me weigh in. Something you just said, Mr. Page 32 September 20,2006 Lambert, kicked something off in my head. Are you telling us that you have already been to the State Licensing Board and they told you to come to the local board because it's not a license that they will approve? MR. LAMBERT: I asked, but they said it was not necessary for me to have to qualify a separate state -- with my state license a separate company if I'm not doing work throughout the state. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Lewis, let me just clarify that for you. He's getting a little bit confused. Tile construction is considered non-construction under 489. So the DPR doesn't regulate tile and marble. So they don't care if you're Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck, if you want to open a tile and marble license, whatever. But the specialty license, they said you need to go where the jurisdiction lies and we lie with Collier County, City of Naples, Marco Island. We require them to have a specialty tile and marble license. So this is why he's here today. It has nothing to do with DPR. If he wants to -- there are many general contractors and building contractors qualify specialty companies. Let's see, Spectrum Painting, they had general contractor licensed by -- but they can build a high-rise but they choose to be a painting company due to the fact that they don't want to go to every jurisdiction in Florida to get a specialty license. They don't want to go to Dade County and take the painting exam or register with them. They don't need to, they're a general contractor. So there's a big difference between what the state tells them and what we do. If that helps you any. MR. LEWIS: Well, that does. And it confuses me now. Because of the simple fact that you've already been to the state and they told you to come back to us. You know, I don't want to leave Mr. Lambert hanging out high and dry either. We need to come to some kind of precedent on this. Page 33 September 20,2006 MR. JOSLIN: I don't think the state had him come back before us because it was something that they weren't going to issue him. He made the choice. It's his choice that he does not want to do work in the State of Florida. And in order to do work all over the State of Florida, he would have to have a certified license, which he can go and qualify a second entity and use this. But ifhe only wants to do work in Collier County, then he's asking us to use his test scores for his general contractor's company. And since he's already had a tile and marble company at one point down the road, we should, I guess, take it -- look at the fact that he should know what he's doing in marble and tile, because he could still be in business today. MR. LEWIS: One more clearing point, Mr. Ossorio. State regulations for certified contractors does not have a category for tile and -- what are they doing here, tile and marble? MR. OSSORIO: No, they do not. MR. LEWIS: They do not. MR. OSSORIO: No. MR. LEWIS: So he cannot go to the state and get a license -- MR. OSSORIO: No. MR. LEWIS: -- for any tile and marble. MR. OSSORIO: No. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: He can go to the state and request to qualify a second company, DJL, and get issued a general contractor's -- second license for that company and do tile and marble with that license. MR. LEWIS: And that's what I thought I had mentioned before. But correct me again if I'm wrong, you said you've already been to the state and they said that they didn't want to issue a second entity license for you? MR. LAMBERT: No, they -- well, basically why I'm here is the insurance of it. We all know that the insurance rate to have men work Page 34 September 20,2006 for you under your general contracting license, first work for you under your tile license, the rate is phenomenally different. MR. LEWIS: That's true. MR. LAMBERT: So the other business would just be tile and marble. And of course I'm only going to do it correctly or I'm not going to do it at all. It's not that they wouldn't issue it or wouldn't do it, they said it was not required if I wasn't working throughout the state, go to your local government. MR. LEWIS: That still clears it back up to where I originally stood. The state can issue Mr. Lambert, according to his license, a second entity license, and that's what needs to happen. That's what they did with me. That's why I was confused when you said they sent you back here, because I have a second entity license. MR. GUITE': If I was you, I would go back to the state and qualify a second entity there. That way you won't have to come before the board in Collier, Lee, Glade, Hendry. Because you're going to get jobs out there. And I'm in that position now where I'm bidding jobs over in Dade County, I'm bidding jobs over by Palm Coast. I'm going to have to go to that county and get a license. Hopefully with-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Reciprocity? There is none. MR. GUITE': And -- or take the test. MR. LAMBERT: Well, I'm not asking the other counties, I'm just asking Collier County for the competency card. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let me weigh in on this as well. I will vote no against this motion. I will always vote no against this motion, because general contractor means that you have a general knowledge about all phases of construction. If -- and I'm not -- this is not an attack on you or Bill, but for you guys -- for any general to think that you have the specialty knowledge that he has is ludicrous. And a good general contractor will acknowledge that right upfront. A good general contractor goes to the individuals that are specialties in Page 35 September 20, 2006 their trade and work with it every day. I will never sit on this board and hand out licenses to general contractors. I'm not saying it won't happen, but I'll sit here and vote no against it every time. MR. LAMBERT: So the request was to waive that trade exam since they've already waived the business portion of the exam. And you're saying take the trade exam. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, we haven't taken a vote yet. I'm speaking for me personally. I'm not speaking for the board. But also, if you're an intelligent individual that knows what you're doing, the work you've gone to already could have -- would be about the time it would have taken you to go take a test. So it's like, go take a test. That's my opinion. MR. BLUM: When you -- you said you sold the company, the tile company, or you had your license with another tile company? MR. LAMBERT: That's correct. MR. BLUM: You had a partnership or something? MR. LAMBERT: No, I qualified that company but I was -- day-to-day I saw their operations, and it was marble. They didn't do any ceramic tile. MR. BLUM: You disassociated yourself with them? MR. LAMBERT: That's correct. MR. BLUM: So why didn't you just take them off your license and keep if for yourself? You didn't have to let it lapse for that. I mean, I've been in this position where I've qualified air conditioning companies, and when I didn't like the way things were going, I just took them off my permitting privileges and went down to the county and said I'm not qualifying that company anymore. It's not a big deal process to do. MR. LAMBERT: Hindsight unfortunately is greater. MR. BLUM: Okay. It just seems crazy that if you had a license for five years, why did you just let it go away? Page 36 September 20, 2006 MR. OSSORIO: So here is -- MR. BARTOE: He would not be here-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One at a time. MS. KELLER: It's water under the bridge -- MR. BLUM: That's the reason I didn't -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Whoa, whoa, whoa. She has to write all this. No sidebars. Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: That's the problem, Mr. Chairman. He would not be here today if he would have kept that tile and marble license dormant. The other -- he could activate it then at any time he wanted to. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The other pitfall you get into is I'm working with the state right now. There is an aggressive investigator in Fort Myers with the Department of Business and Professional Regulation. And I, just like you guys do, in fact you could help the state in this respect, you get these trade magazines, the same kind of trade magazines I get, and there's always ads in there where guys -- the one we found this week was he will rent you his license. He's not going to sell it, which is usually what the ads are, but he will rent the license for one year to qualify your -- and I'm not putting you in this category, you're a respectable -- when I see a letter like that from Ed Perico, I know the quality of person you are. So this is not personal. But can you see what could happen if we start handing licenses out? I mean, it's already a problem. MR. GUITE': Yes, it is. MR. LEWIS: And just to weigh in, that's part of why the state has set up the licensing procedures for second entities, is to govern such things and to make sure that the people that have the licenses are in control of the things that they're doing and that the general public is protected. And I think, again, to remind ourselves that's what we're here Page 37 September 20, 2006 for. Not that Mr. Lambert would be a threat to the general public, I certainly don't mean that by any way, shape or form. I know he -- if he applies for the second entity, I'm sure it will be granted, in my opinion. And ifhe takes the test, you know, I'm sure he'll probably pass it with flying colors. So my opinion, he's got two options: One, go before the state, get a second entity, or take the tile and marble exam. With that, if there's no further discussion, I'm willing to make a motion to disapprove. MR. GUITE': I'll second it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: More discussion? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We weren't hacking you up. This was for future reference. Had nothing to do with -- as he said, we brought this up as a test case, okay? With that in mind, no discussion, I'll call for a vote. All those in favor of denying, say aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sorry. Go to Gainesville Testing. I think they're up in Fort Myers and they do it what, once a week, Michael? MR.OSSORIO: I believe they do it twice a month. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Twice a month up in Fort Myers. MR. OSSORIO: They do it twice a month in Naples. It's called Page 38 September 20, 2006 Gainesville Independent -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They're in Naples now? MR.OSSORIO: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Cool. MR. LAMBERT: So we've waived the business portion of the exam so it's just the trade exam that I have to take? MR. OSSORIO: That's what I understood. Bill Hammond and I talked about it. He's taken an 18-hour exam. And part of that, six hours, is the business and law procedures. I don't think he needs to take the business and law exam. That's something that's redundant. But I stand fast about the trade stuff. So I think we're all in agreement. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If I go take another trade test, my business and law scores would go with me, would they not? MR. LEWIS: The state also rules on that. MR. OSSORIO: That's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Wish you well. MR. LAMBERT: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Last item, Paul Bowersox, d/b/a Trojan Pools, Incorporated. Review of sanctions imposed by the board on May 17th, 2006. I don't remember this case. Was I not here? MR. BLUM: You might have been in Russia. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Was I not here? MR. BARTOE: I don't know, back in May. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The only problem I have is Mr. Bowersox is a friend of mine. He's also a -- MR. BARTOE: Mr. Bowersox, was he here in May? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Was I? MR. JOSLIN: You were here. MR. BLUM: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I don't remember what happened. Page 39 September 20, 2006 MR. BARTOE: You were not here? MR. BOWERSOX: No, I was here. We were all here. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Dickson, do you remember the -- Mrs. Y orka, the pregnant lady that testified? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. MR. NEALE: Yeah, I don't think Mr. Dickson was here, because Mr . Joslin signed the order. MR. JOSLIN: He was here, but I signed the order. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, it was actually two cases, almost formulated exactly the same. And we had trouble with the numbers. You had to write down numbers, we had to write down numbers, and couldn't come to some kind of an agreement. You were here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm still thinking I should maybe not lead this discussion. MR. LEWIS: If I remember correctly, that's sort of what you said the last time and then we all disagreed with that, because we knew that you'd be fair and impartial. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that what happened? MR. BOWERSOX: Yes, sort of. There was two cases. Eddie Hoyo -- MR. NEALE: He needs to come up. MR.OSSORIO: Mr. Bowersox, if you're going to communicate with the board, you need to come up and get sworn in, please. MR. BOWERSOX: My name's Paul Bowersox. (Speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I was here? MR. BOWERSOX: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you signed the order. MR. NEALE: Right, because you went out of town right afterwards. MR. JOSLIN: You went out of town. But you were here. Either way. Page 40 September 20, 2006 Maybe Mr. Bartoe could give us an overview on what's happening? MR. BARTOE: There were two cases. Mr. Hoyo, I believe is how you pronounce it. That was Allen Kennette's case from Marco Island. And the other case was mine, Mr. and Mrs. Yorka from Golden Gate Estates. And the problem that we had was liens that were not taken care of and pools that were not completed. MR. GUITE': Didn't you do some work for Mr. Yorka, like it was on a verbal basis? MR. BOWERSOX: No, that was Mr. Hoyo. I poured all the sidewalks around his house and he claimed that I did not do that. MR. JOSLIN: And he didn't pay you for those items, right? MR. BOWERSOX: Right, he did not pay me for anything. And I had to pay for his screen enclosure that he had put up, which was twice the money that was in the contract. Plus he did not have to pay me the final draw for the pool. MR. JOSLIN: For the order that was written and I signed, can you tell me, Mr. Bartoe, what has been done and what has not been done yet? MR. BARTOE: Yes, I was going to do that. In your packet I included a letter to Mr. Bowersox, which you see dated August 3rd for him to appear back here, which he received in my office on August 3rd. And I included in your packet the order of the board, finding of facts, conclusion of law from that day. If you go to Page 5 under order of the board, on sanctions imposed under number three, suspension of permit pulling privileges for a period of six months or until all of the following contingencies are completed, whichever comes first: Payment of all outstanding construction liens that were the result of the action or inaction of the respondent on the properties of complainants Y orka and Hoyo in the Page 41 September 20, 2006 amounts of $8,498.88 for Y orka, and Hoyo, $2,835.55. Under B, payment of restitution in the amount of $4,000 to Mr. Hoyo, and $2,900 to Mr. Yorka. C, on the next page, completion and certificate of occupancy or successful final inspection of the construction of the screen cage, as contracted on the Y orka residence. Number four: Should the requirements set out in paragraph three super not be completed within the 60-day period, the respondent shall appear at the next regular contractor's licensing board meeting for a review of the sanctions imposed and an evaluation of whether his license should be suspended or revoked. Number four is the reason we're here before you today. From what I understand from Allen Kennette, Mr. Hoyo's case has been taken care of. My case with the Y orkas, all liens have been proven to be satisfactorily taken care of except for one to Coastal Concrete in the amount of$5,928. Approximately three weeks ago a satisfaction of lien from them showed up on my desk. It has not been recorded. I left a message on Mr. Bowersox's phone two weeks ago, advising him that this needs to get recorded and get me a copy so I can get it to the Y orkas. And I said that way I'll be able to tell the board. But that was two weeks ago. I haven't gotten a recorded copy yet. As of yesterday, when I got in the computer, this permit has expired on the Y orkas, has not been reapplied for, and final inspections have not been done and passed. I spoke with Mr. Yorka at 8:30 this morning by phone. He advised me he has not yet received a recorded satisfaction of lien for this. He only received the copy I gave him that I received, not recorded. And he heard from -- for the first time in a couple, three weeks he heard from Mr. Bowersox yesterday and he come out there and worked five or 10 minutes and stated he needed more parts and left. Page 42 September 20, 2006 And Mr. Yorka advised that the remaining child fence he put up does not match the child fence that was up. I guess what he had was partially up. I have not seen it. And the new he provided supposedly does not match the old. MR. GUITE': Has he paid restitution? MR. BARTOE: Restitution also has not been paid, according to Mr. Y orka. And Mr. Y orka stated this morning that Mr. Bowersox told him he has no money and he would have to set up an attempt to make payments to him. MR. BLUM: Was that agreeable to Mr. Yorka, to accept payments? MR. BARTOE: He did not say. He sounded fairly disgusted today. (At which time, Ms. Keller exits the boardroom.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can we see that, what you have there, the satisfaction of lien? MR. JOSLIN: If I'm not mistaken, that satisfaction of lien is a paperwork that was given to you or provided to you after you paid the supplier off and has not been recorded in the county and records; right? MR. BOWERSOX: Well, I had to pay their lawyer off. Coastal Concrete has got a lawyer -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need to have him sworn in. THE COURT REPORTER: I swore him in. MR. NEALE: He already is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, you did? Okay. Go ahead. MR. BOWERSOX: That was from Coastal Concrete's lawyer, when I had to pay their lawyer. We're on a payment plan, and once that was paid, then they gave me that release. And my attorney said that their attorney was supposed to have it recorded. MR. JOSLIN: Okay . Well, this is the satisfaction, so -- and it's Page 43 September 20, 2006 all signed and notarized, so it wouldn't be very difficult for you to take this down and have it recorded. It's a matter of walking in there and recording it at the county. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One floor up, number four. MR. JOSLIN: But it has to be recorded, otherwise it's just a piece of paper. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I mean, this is valid. MR. JOSLIN: Looks valid to me. MR. BOWERSOX: Yes, it's been paid. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. Can you tell us the rest -- for the board members also the rest of the reasons why these things haven't been taken care of yet after the leniency we've given you already? MR. BOWERSOX: Well, everything's been paid. The only thing, the child fence, when we went out there to put the child fence up, we was 20 feet short. So I went to my supplier, told him I needed 20 more feet. He said we don't carry it anymore, everybody's buying direct, so buy direct. They gave me the number to call to buy direct. I went to buy direct, they told me you can't buy direct, you've got to buy through a supplier. Big rigamarole. But then I finally got it through the supplier and it came, and it's got silver poles instead of black poles. Well, I have to paint them. That's the only difference in the fence. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I just want to make sure we keep on track. I mean, we're not here to discuss poles or -- we're here to discuss about the order of the board, how he failed to within the 60 days -- and we need some direction from the board. This homeowner has been waiting long enough. I'm sure there are other cases out there. Mr. Bowersox can elaborate that, if he wishes. But we need to stop the bleeding. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, we have no choice. MR. BOWERSOX: Well, it's kind of hard to get this work done when I can't pull any permits. I have a hard time making money Page 44 September 20, 2006 without permits. And I'm trying -- I'm selling equipment as I need things. I've got a guy I'm working with now that's actually willing to finance some of my equipment so I can pay everything off and get back to work. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you take that business and law test? MR. BOWERSOX: No, I haven't yet. I've signed up. Actually, it's about a $900 fee to get the books and the stuff to take it. MR. OSSORIO: Nine hundred dollars to go take a business and law exam? What bookstore did you go to? MR. BOWERSOX: It's in the computer that's what it was at. MR. OSSORIO: To take the exam requires you to pay a sponsor fee of $25. To take the exam it's $72. And I believe the book is $150, if that, for the business portion of the test. MR. BOWERSOX: I need that information then. This was the state test. MR. BLUM: Mr. Bartoe? You said Mr. Yorka did not get his $2,900 for the restitution part, or did he not get the 8,498 as well? Did he get any of the money that he had -- MR. BARTOE: The 8,498 was for three liens. MR. BLUM: That's paid? MR. BARTOE: The big one, Krehling's lien, Gorman Company's lien were satisfied and were recorded. And the remaining one is this 5,928 Coastal Concrete, it has not been recorded. MR. BLUM: Well, we'll accept that. Now, the $4,000 to Mr. Hoyo has been paid? MR. BARTOE: According to Allen Kennette, yes, it has. MR. BLUM: But the 2,900 to Mr. Yorka has not. MR. BARTOE: Correct. MR. BLUM: That's the only monetary claim that's still outstanding? MR. BARTOE: Correct. Page 45 September 20, 2006 MR. JOSLIN: And also the child fence. MR. BLUM: Well, the child fence I think can be resolved. But we need something -- MR. JOSLIN: And also the pool lien's not been found out, which I can understand that not happening. If he's not allowed to pull permits at the moment then he couldn't re-ap the permit anyway. MR. OSSORIO: Well, yes, he could. It's in the computer that he's not allowed to get issued any more building permits. He's a local contractor. MR. JOSLIN: That would be a new permit if he re-aps it. MR.OSSORIO: Well, that's something that we can work out. I'm not talking -- let's not talk apples and oranges. He can't pull any new building permits. That's not a new building permit. MR. BARTOE: I can release the hold on his license for the purpose of re-apping this. MR. BLUM: I would have to see a letter from Mr. Yorka that he's happy with the work and that something has been resolved that he feels comfortable he's going to get his $2,900. At the very least, Mr. Y orka's got to sign off on agreeing to that. I mean, I want to see the guy back in business. MR.OSSORIO: Mr. Blum, if that was the case, we wouldn't be here today. MR. BOWERSOX: Mr. Y orka and me, we -- he's bought some extras since then on his stuff, so it's about half now. I know you need to see that. MR. BLUM: Excuse me, but I've only got you to listen to, unfortunately. MR. BOWERSOX: Right, I understand. MR. BARTOE: I would like to mention to the board that there are two new investigations in my department involving Mr. Bowersox, and none of them are mine. One of them is -- that's being investigated is a very similar situation to the Y orkas, and it's Mr. Y orka's brother. Page 46 September 20, 2006 MR. BLUM: Oh, boy. MR. OSSORIO: The reason why we asked -- we're informing the board is that because he's on probation and he's under direct supervision of the building director and myself. So anything we tell you, he's on probation, I think is fair game. So with that said, we need to take some appropriate steps today. MR. BLUM: Do you have a suggestion, Mr. Ossorio? MR. OSSORIO: I do. MR. BLUM: Could we hear it? MR.OSSORIO: I believe that we should revoke his license. And if he wants to petition the board again in the future, then all complaints are -- and all the stuff and all the complaints are taken care of. We've given him six months, and that's something that he stressed to the board. If you actually read the minutes, he made the time frame and he said he could do it. And here we are today on probation and he hasn't done it. And he's further financially harmed other consumers while he's on probation. If he wants to get a license back with our department, then he needs to take care of and facilitate all means and then we could go back in front of the board and we can hash this out. There's nothing to say that we can't come back and take a license -- revoke status to an active status. I think Mr. Neale can elaborate on that. MR. BARTOE: It has been done in the past. MR. OSSORIO: But we need to stop the bleeding and we need to go ahead and stress the fact to Mr. Bowersox that we -- these complaints are serious enough that we need to get some action. We won't forward it to DPR, we'll keep it in-house, and hopefully within five months maybe he can work for a pool contractor and save some money up, pay these homeowners back and start fresh and come back and see me, and then and we'll talk about it again. Page 47 September 20, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? Or motion or whatever. MR. GUITE': I don't believe you entered into a contract with Mr. Y orka's brother. I just -- MR. BOWERSOX: Well, this was -- we entered them both at the same time. We sold them both at the same time. MR. GUITE': And how far along is that job? MR. BOWERSOX: Oh, it's done. MR. GUITE': It's finished? MR. BOWERSOX: Yeah. They're both done, actually. MR. GUITE': So the investigation is nil. MR. BARTOE: Permits expired in that investigation, and I do believe another lien on that job to Coastal Concrete. MR. BOWERSOX: There is a lien on the job which, like I say, I'm paying Coastal Concrete payments. As soon as I get them all paid off, they're going to give me the liens. They won't give me the lien releases until I get them all paid off. MR. GUITE': I can see the predicament you're in. I mean, you're in like a Catch-22. You can't do work and then you can't-- MR. BOWERSOX: I can't make money to pay the people. MR. GUITE': And I'm kind of leery about taking this guy's livelihood away from him, because these customers are never going to get their money. MR. BOWERSOX: Right. MR.OSSORIO: Well, if we revoke his license and he's serious about being in business, then he's going to pay these people back. But our office can't sit on these cases and let them collect dust. That's not what we're about. We need to move them and we need to get some -- we need to get satisfaction for these homeowners. He's on probation. He violated his probation by not following the board's order. And what is there, another probation period we're going to go through? Is that something that you want to go tell these homeowners that we understand your problem? Who knows if we're Page 48 September 20, 2006 going to get two more complaints next month. MR. GUITE': But what I would have liked to have seen him do is come to the board on his own before this date and ask for an extension, which would have made more sense, you know, because he seems like he has -- I mean, he's paid quite a bit of money out -- MR. BOWERSOX: Everything I can. MR. GUITE': -- to satisfy these liens and homeowners. I mean, it's like now you're thinking about ripping the rug out from underneath him. MR.OSSORIO: Well, the board's order is the board's order, Mr. Guite'. It says 60 days. MR. GUITE': I know that. But that's what I'm saying, he could have come and asked for an extension and maybe we could have granted him one, seeing as how he was making an effort here. I don't know. MR. OSSORIO: And just for the record, he did -- MR. GUITE': Obviously I had more faith in Mr. Bowersox than maybe I should have put in him, but -- MR. OSSORIO: Just for the record, that he did violate your order. He did pull a building permit in the City of Marco Island. And unfortunately, for some reason it was a paper glitch that he pulled a building permit within that 60-day period for a new pool. And we've stopped that. We've talked to the City of Marco Island. So, you know, he's out there running around. MR. BLUM: I'm prepared to make a motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead. MR. BLUM: I make a motion that as much as it saddens me, that we revoke Mr. Bowersox's license until staff recommends that we reevaluate it somewhere down the line when things have been resolved with these complaints. MR. JOSLIN: Also that it be sent up to DPR? MR. BLUM: I'm sorry? Page 49 September 20, 2006 MR. JOSLIN: Also that the information gets sent to DPR? MR. BLUM: Oh, absolutely. Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It was county's recommendation that it not be sent to DPR yet. MR. BLUM: Oh, okay. We'll follow Mr. Ossorio's recommendation. MR. JOSLIN: I'll second that motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? MR. GUITE': I'd like to know what Mr. Joslin feels about it. MR. JOSLIN: Believe it or not, gentlemen, I really feel bad. I mean, I feel like I'm taking the rug out from under someone that I've known for a long time. I know he's in a predicament. I know what it's like to be in that predicament. However, when he came in here, he sat here and told me myself that he could do this. MR. BOWERSOX: I thought I could. MR. JOSLIN: And that's why I gave you the order as it stood with the amount of time span to get it done. And unfortunately you did not. So I have no other choice and no other things to say other than I'll second the motion. MR. LEWIS: Discussion, if we could. Could you weigh in, please, Mr. Neale, about the sanctions that were pending here, the definitions of revocation versus suspension? MR. NEALE: Well, revocation of his license means that it is terminated and that he would have to completely reapply for a new license and come back. And particularly in this case come back from before the board because of the previous -- this finding of revocation would -- I would suggest that staff would almost certainly recommend that license to the board for review. So he would have to come back with a complete new packet. He certainly would have had to have completed the business and law exam, because that was a part of this -- of the original order was that Page 50 September 20, 2006 he pass the business and law exam. Suspension would be such that his license would be suspended until he -- the board could set out conditions that he would have to fulfill to get his license back, get it off suspension. However, his license is currently under suspension effectively because the board has pulled his permit pulling privileges as of the time of that order. So the difference between suspension and where he's at today would be more a distinction without a difference. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Only question I have, Michael, if we do this, then he can't go back and clean up these four jobs. MR. OSSORIO: That's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're really down to three jobs, right? MR. OSSORIO: There could be four, there could be six, there could be 10. I have no idea. MR. BOWERSOX: There's actually two. MR. BARTOE: He could complete them by having the homeowner pull a permit to finish, or by him working for another pool contractor and having that pool contractor pull the permit to finish. If he would be suspended or revoked. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm just looking for an avenue, should he find an investor or a refi. on a home loan or some way that he can come up with money. Are we completely shutting the door for him to go in and make everything correct? MR.OSSORIO: Well, if you ask my opinion, I would say that no, he's -- we want him stopped. In other words, is that the homeowner would come in the office, we would facilitate the homeowner of getting the building permit to an appropriate person's hands, either by an owner/builder or by another company, find out what money's owed, and we would keep a tally on that, so when Mr. Bowersox comes in some money, we know exactly where we stand in money or monetary money or what's lost and what's gained for the Page 51 September 20, 2006 homeowners out there. But to say that we're going to continue on with the status quo is unacceptable. You know, who knows who's out there? He's already admitted in the last testimony that there's other -- Gorman has other liens out there. We don't know. And we can leave today and have two more cases sitting on my desk today. But if we can revoke his license and we're serious about it and he's serious about getting his license back and he gets a loan or starts working for someone six months, seven months down the line and comes in and pays everyone off and we've been affirmed by that and he gets a good credit report and passes the Gainesville Independent testing, we have no problem getting him back in a probation period and pulling building permits in the City of Naples and Marco Island. But we need to serve the public and this is what we're here to do today. MR. JOSLIN: Can a revoked license be reinstated? MR. OSSORIO: Yeah. MR. GUITE': What's left physically for work to do on this job? MR. BARTOE: I believe -- and maybe Mr. Bowersox, he was out there yesterday, I wasn't. I believe there's very little to do. I do know yesterday I looked in the computer, the screen enclosure is completed. But an inspection has never been called on it yet. MR. GUITE': See, that's kind of what I'm looking at here is if he doesn't have any work left to do, he just owes the guy money, then maybe there's another avenue to take here. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Guite', we're going to be right back in here next month, guaranteed. We have two cases and they're ready to go for next month. Is that what you want to see, Mr. Bowersox give you the status quo that he has no money and tried or versus revoking his license and moving the case forward to another level and showing -- MR. GUITE': Ifwe revoke his license right now, what's going to happen with the two cases next month? Are we still going to hear Page 52 September 20, 2006 them? MR. BARTOE: We can't hear them ifhe doesn't have a license. MR. OSSORIO: No. But it's going to give Mr. Bowersox an opportunity to cool down his business and really start settling down and saying I need to pay these people back, and find out what money's owed, either with a loan like Mr. Dickson says or versus some other means, and gives him an opportunity to maybe explore a different business. MR. LEWIS: On the other hand, if we revoke the man's license, he has no incentive to come back. MR. OSSORIO: Sure he does. MR. BLUM: Sure he does. MR. OSSORIO: He tells you that he has ties in the community. Ifhe didn't really care, he wouldn't be here today. I think Mr. Bowersox sat in the audience for many hours. And if I don't think he cared about his license, he wouldn't be here today, Mr. Lewis. MR. LEWIS : Well, I see part of -- I weigh in on both sides. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Mr. Bowersox's problems. But I'm concerned with the condition that we're leaving not only Mr. Bowersox but the consuming public. You know, if you're telling me there's three or four other cases -- potential cases out there, and they can't come before this board based on the decision that we make today of revocation of license, then we're basically taking away the avenue that the public has to come in front of this board to see some type of justice done. Whether it's paid off or it's not, that's something that we have to work towards. But it basically takes them away and leaves them only one avenue, which is civil, which they have with or without this board. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Lewis, if Mr. Bowersox has no money and he states to you he has no money, I don't care what the board does, finding of fact, whatever it is, you can't take blood out of a turnip. He'll tell you that. But we need to be serious about this and Page 53 September 20,2006 show good faith to these homeowners that the board's doing something. I didn't put him on probation, you put him on probation. And it's something that we need to stress the fact that if he's serious about getting his license back, show us. Because you set the 60 days, and he did too, as well. MR. LEWIS: I agree with that and I understand what you're saying, but also empathize -- not empathize but sympathize with not only the public but with Mr. Bowersox. And this is something that we're deciding here today that's going to create a big step in his life and in the general public's. And at this point, taking your opinion and I -- of which I have great regard and appreciation, I think I'd rather have the public weigh in on the situation also. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There is no recovery from the State Recovery Fund, because that excludes roofing contractors and pool contractors. MR. OSSORIO: It's considered a tier one contractor. Unfortunately Mr. Bowersox is a registered pool contractor and he's not a tier one contractor. So no, he would not. But what we do today reflects what the state will do. They will take action against this finding of facts. Obviously we're still going to hold it, that's my recommendation, but there's no say in the matter that I can go to the state level and go after him from the state registration. And they can order a finding of fact too as well. So there is an avenue for the consumers. I envision Mr. Bowersox losing his license. I envision that he'll come in next month, sit down in good faith and come up with good numbers and within three months get some kind of a loan or work something out with somebody with an investment and then pay these people back, and then we'll be in front of the board within six months Page 54 September 20, 2006 with the business and law test, with a full application. That's what I envision. And hopefully we can come to some kind of agreement on that matter. MR. LEWIS: Personal opinion to the board is that we basically have that control as where we are now with the suspension of license and permit pulling privileges. I think we should continue that. MR. OSSORIO: There's nothing personal. This is -- that's my professional opinion. MR. LEWIS: This is my personal opinion, because I'm dealing (sic) this not only professionally but personally. And I understand, you know, where you're coming from, Mr Ossorio. And I understand that we need to be straightforward in enforcing on this board. And I think we're doing such. But I don't see cutting someone off at the knees and slapping them hard across the back as getting the situation resolved. Personal opinion and -- towards this board at this point is that we continue with what we have. He's still under suspension for six months. We can bring him back again in 30 days and review what's going on, and in 30 days I'd like to have the general public, Mr. Y orka here, and any other licensed complaints. MR. JOSLIN: I'd like to see if Mr. Blum would amend his motion to agree. MR. BLUM: No, I have no intention of amending my motion, and I would just -- as part of discussion, we just previously had one of the most reputable contractors in Collier County stand up here who we all know is more than capable of doing what he wanted to do, yet we sent him back to take a test. Now we've got a guy here, I'm sorry, that has flagrantly disregarded the board's action, has gone out and done more work without regard for the consequences. He has more complaints with other customers for dollar amounts that we know he can't pay for. I think Mr Ossorio's comment of stopping the bleeding, you've Page 55 September 20, 2006 got to stop it. Let's end this, let's see if this man really cares. Ifhe cares, he'll do something about it. We need to get him off the street and get his license out of here. MR. GUITE': But basically the bleeding has been stopped, because he cannot pull anymore permits. MR.OSSORIO: Mr. Guite', he did pull a building permit when he was on probation and when he was told not to, so I tend to disagree with you. MR. BLUM: It's a flagrant disregard for this board. Flagrant. He made no attempt to do the right thing, except he got a couple of liens lifted. The customer, Mr. Yorka, has already told Mr. Bartoe that he's totally unsatisfied, he's unhappy. He has not met the terms that he himself asked for. I'm sorry, I can't do it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, let the record show that Mrs. Ann Keller had to leave the board meeting because she was not feeling well. So we are now six rather than seven. Did I count right? Yeah. MR. JOSLIN: Mr. Blum, I appreciate your comments, and I think you're absolutely correct. I think Mr. Ossorio is correct. That's my personal opinion. And I again second your motion and I'm ready for the voting. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anymore discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's repeat the motion. Correct me if I don't get it correct. Motion was to revoke his license with a recommendation not to send it forward to the state at this time. Should we add in there but to be determined by Mr. Ossorio at a future date? You want to do that? MR. OSSORIO: That's correct. I'll keep the board informed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you agree with that change? MR. BLUM: Absolutely. Page 56 September 20, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you agree with the second? MR. JOSLIN: Yes. MR. GUITE': Could you repeat that for me, please. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The motion is to revoke his license. At this point, however, not to send the case to the state board, but to leave that to the discretion of contractor licensing supervisor, which may be done at a future date or may not be done. MR. LEWIS: May I ask why? If you're going to revoke the man's license, you might as well let everybody in the state know about it. Why would you suspend sending any information to the state? MR. BARTOE: It's only a county license. MR. LEWIS : Yeah, but a state registration. MR. OSSORIO: Yes, it's a state registration. MR. GUITE': Does that stop him from doing any work, including these jobs, if he doesn't have a license? MR. BARTOE: I'm sorry? MR. GUITE': Does that prohibit him from finishing these jobs if he doesn't have a license? Or is he going to have to go get a contractor to finish it for him? MR. LEWIS: He cannot finish the job. MR. OSSORIO: No, cannot finish the job. Like I said before, if the board does what they need to do, the homeowners will come in the office, we'll come up with some kind of a -- facilitate them to try to get them on board with another company or an owner-builder through Bill Hammond's office. And then we can tally up what's lost and what's gained. And Mr. Bowersox, ifhe wants to come in the office and come with a check, whatever it is, and find out what it's going to cost to get his license back, I'm all for it. The state? The state will do their own investigation, Mr. Lewis. And they can do findings of fact as well. If I send information up there and I have a recommendation -- Mr. Neale can probably Page 57 September 20, 2006 elaborate more on this -- but the state will take action against him and will fine levies on him as well. MR. LEWIS: That's why I'm asking. Why aren't you sending it? The motion, if I understand it correctly, is not to notify the state. MR. OSSORIO: Two things. One -- A, overkill. I'm not here to go ahead -- MR. LEWIS: Overkill? MR.OSSORIO: I'm not here to put him in the ground, I'm here to tell him that we need the case to go forward. And to go forward, he was on probation, the next step is revocating. The next step would be going to DPR. Hopefully between now and four or five months from now then we'll have a clean slate. MR. GUITE': Am I wrong, are we just dealing with these two jobs, the Hoyo and the Y orka residence? MR. OSSORIO: That's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's correct. MR. GUITE': And the work is complete except for the kiddie fence around the pool. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, and there's a $5,000 lien, too. MR. BARTOE: No, there's -- MR. GUITE': That's been satisfied, just not recorded. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's restitution. MR. GUITE': Twenty-nine. I don't see -- it doesn't make any sense. MR. BOWERSOX: May I say something? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. BOWERSOX: I have another job that is almost complete. I've got to pebble and put the screen up. The lady owes me almost $18,000 at this point. But Allen Kennette told her not to pay me until I was completed. MR. GUITE': What's the contract say? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Lewis, I -- Page 58 September 20, 2006 MR. BOWERSOX: Contract says a tile draw due of 30 percent, which we're way past that. But she says Allen Kennette says not to pay me. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I object. That's hearsay. And Allen's not here as well, so I don't think that's relevant to the probation hearing. He's violated his -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Ossorio, as you as well know, this board accepts hearsay. So yeah, I can. We can accept it. MR. GUITE': And then if we revoke his license, he cannot go back and finish this other lady's job, which he'll never get that money, which -- nothing will get finished. MR. BLUM: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, we've got a motion. We're going back down the same line of discussion here. We have a motion to revoke. We have a second. Can we deal with that motion. MR. LEWIS : We can if everybody understands what's on the floor. MR. BLUM: I think we know ad nauseam. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't you think we do? MR. LEWIS: I'm not sure. I hear everybody talking, but I don't think everybody's listening. You know, the-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I know not everybody is listening. MR. LEWIS: What's stated is that, well, let's stop the bleeding. Well, that's bunk. You're not stopping anything, you're just increasing it if you take this man's license away. There is no opportunity for the homeowner to recover anything. There is no opportunity for the homeowner to recover anything. They have nothing to come to this board or anyone else that says help me. We can't do anything, because he no longer has a license. The only opportunity they have is civil, which they have at this point also. Page 59 September 20, 2006 If you stop him from doing any further work, whatever permits are pulled out there at this point in time and whatever work is finished or not finished -- Mr. Bowersox just testified to, he has a job that's unfinished at this point, it just lacks a little bit to be finished-- he can't go back and finish that. So now you're actually permitting the county to injure another homeowner because her job is now out there unfinished. Now, I guarantee, if she has $18,000 to finish it, she could probably have that happen. But it's an additional expense to the homeowners that have not corne before this board yet, if they want to do so. It's also going to be an additional expense to the homeowners that have corne here that want something done. They're going to have to pay another contractor to do it. And I think every licensed contractor sitting on this board knows that you're not going to go out there and do it, especially for free. So I see the implications and possibilities. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but the possibilities of the general public being hurt even worse than they are at this point without any opportunity of recovery are Immense. So as long as everyone understands that, I'm ready for a vote. MR. BLUM: They've had more than 60 days to recover now unsuccessfully. He has not taken the test. A simple thing like taking a test. We all know it doesn't cost $900 to take a business/law test. I can't imagine where that even carne from -- MR. BOWERSOX: Well, I looked up for the state test. MR. BLUM: You know this is a county license we're talking about, sir. You've been around here a very long time. I'm hearing stuff that doesn't make sense to me, okay? And what are we sending to the public here? Good grief, this man has got at least three unfinished lien jobs, not paying his bills, people are unhappy, not doing the job. We've had two customers in here testifying to his unprofessionalism, and we're going to let him Page 60 September 20, 2006 keep his license. I mean, what are we, kidding? MR. LEWIS: His license has been suspended. MR. BLUM: Revoke it. Let's send a clear and present message. Revoke his license. He wants it back, work for it. Solve these judgments, satisfy these liens, make these people happy. Corne in here and do the right thing. And I'll be the first guy that will raise my hand and say go for it. MR. GUITE': But wouldn't that same goal be accomplished just by putting him on suspension until everything's -- MR. BLUM: No, I don't think so, because he's had every opportunity in the world to do the right thing. He could have corne to us a month ago. MR. GUITE': At least with suspension he could go back and finish the jobs that are there. If you revoke it, he can't. MR. BLUM: He can still walk back there and take care of this. There are methods -- MR. LEWIS: No, he cannot. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One at a time, please. MR. GUITE': He can't. MR. BLUM: If he is not a licensed contractor, the homeowner can pull an owner-builder permit and he can go do it as a nice guy and get it done, and boy, wouldn't we like to see that. MR. GUITE': But the homeowners aren't going to think that way. MR. BLUM: No, because they don't trust him. Neither do I. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a question for you -- MR. JOSLIN: Well, there's no money corning out of their pocket, monetary value. So I disagree there, I think they would. They're going to get their cost -- (Several people talking at one time.) MR. GUITE': I don't think so. I think they'd be more apt to call Channel 7 News. And I don't want to have this end up on Channel 7 Page 61 September 20, 2006 News. MR. BOWERSOX: May I say one thing? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wait, wait, wait, stop. We've got to corne to a head on this. Otherwise let's all go down and have lunch and talk about it over -- question for you. How many jobs do you have going? MR. BOWERSOX: Five. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Five. What's the stage of each of the five? MR. BOWERSOX: The one -- there's one on Marco that's almost finished. Got to put the screen up and pebble. That's the one that owes me $18,000. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you paid all the bills on that? MR. BOWERSOX: Yes, I'm paying cash for everything. As I get it I buy the brick, as I get it I buy the tile. I paid everything. There's no -- I have no charge accounts in this town. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, next job. MR. BOWERSOX: It's for one of my builders, which is the one that was pulled, which Torn was telling about, that got pulled. But Torn also took the hold off at that time when I went in there. I talked to him and he said he can pull the -- take the hold off, and he did. He took it off. He had one of his office help corne in and help take it off. That's when I applied for that permit. Plus I applied for a permit for another job out in Golden Gate. Which is -- they have -- today they -- they tiled the pool today, so that's almost done. It will be done next week. We're trying to get it -- actually, we're trying to get them to swim this weekend. I don't know if that will happen, we're waiting on electricians. MR. BLUM: That was a permit you pulled since you were here last? MR. BOWERSOX: Yes. I am trying to get all these jobs done. I now have an investor, but he's not going to invest the 100 grand that Page 62 September 20, 2006 it's going to take to pay all my bills offunless -- after this outcome then we'll know. You revoke my license, he's not going to give me that. MR. JOSLIN: So you're basically telling us this morning you're 100 grand in debt? MR. BOWERSOX: No, no, not 100 grand. But I have a $100,000 worth of equipment that he wants to invest in. I have a backhoe, a dump truck, a $40,000 pump. And he just corne up with a number saying, you know, it's worth 100 grand, so you're worth 100 grand to me. He -- and that's -- but that's not what it takes, no. MR. JOSLIN: How long would it take you to finish these jobs-- MR. BOWERSOX: Thirty days. MR. JOSLIN: -- if you had the possibility? MR. BOWERSOX: If you could give me 30 days, I can get the money from him, everything will be cleared up. Everything. MR. JOSLIN: We're not talking about everything. We're talking about the two -- the reason why you're here right now. MR. BOWERSOX: Oh, the Y orka job, there's two little eyelets there I've got to put in the screen to hook the child fence to. The ones they gave us in the package are too small. Those have to be put in, reapply for the permit, get the final inspection. MR. JOSLIN: Ten days? MR. BOWERSOX: Well, then I have to pay him back the $1,500. MR. JOSLIN: Ten days? MR. BOWERSOX: Yeah, 10 days. That would finish Yorka up. Hoyo's done. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, stop, stop. MR. JOSLIN: No, I'm-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, no, no, no. MR. JOSLIN: I agree with Mr. Lewis-- Page 63 September 20, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I did -- MR. JOSLIN: -- in a lot of ways. Only because if we do not -- if we cut this man off, just like Mr. Lewis says, we are not helping Collier County. We're not helping these other cases that are going to possibly corne before us. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, if you -- MR. JOSLIN: He said 10 days. This is why he's here on these two cases. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you don't like it, withdraw your second. MR. JOSLIN: I'll withdraw my second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, I have a motion on the floor that needs a second. (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, motion fails for lack ofa second. Do I hear a new motion? MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a new motion. I must be mental doing this, maybe, I'm not sure. I'll make a motion that as of this moment we are going to suspend your license for a period of 10 days longer, or until 10 days from today's date, providing that you are able to payoff all of the items for Mr. -- what is it, Y orka? MR. BARTOE: Yorka. MR. JOSLIN: And clear up all the liens that are within this case of -- Case No. -- MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Joslin, if you suspend his license he can't do any work because he's been suspended. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He can work on the jobs that he presently has -- MR. JOSLIN: I'm only speaking about these two jobs now. I'm suspending his license but he could still work on these two -- Page 64 September 20, 2006 MR. OSSORIO: Maybe Mr. Neale can give you some information. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Suspend permit pulling privileges, which has already happened, so you don't have to do it again. MR. NEALE: I mean, where he currently is he cannot pull any new permits, but his license is still active. MR. JOSLIN: Right. MR. NEALE: So that he could -- where he currently is, he can currently complete jobs that he has under process, but he cannot pull any new permits under the current order. MR. JOSLIN: Correct. MR. BLUM: So what you really want to do is give him 10 additional days from the board's recommendation from the original case. MR. JOSLIN: Yes. MR. BLUM: Is that what you want to do? MR. JOSLIN: That's what I was thinking about -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But he's stated -- MR. JOSLIN: He has 10 days. And if that doesn't happen in 10 days, your license is revoked, period. MR. BLUM: That's it. Doesn't corne before the board, so -- MR. JOSLIN: Doesn't corne before the board, staff will take care of it, license is gone. MR. BOWERSOX: What exactly has got to be done in 10 days? MR. JOSLIN: You have to pay everything off. Now you said you have other jobs going on. They're already permitted. MR. BOWERSOX: Right. MR. JOSLIN : You're going to have dollars and cents corning in, you're going to have money that is going to be able to be transferred. MR. BOWERSOX: They've already been told not to pay me. MR. JOSLIN: That contract can be-- Page 65 September 20, 2006 MR. BLUM: Mr. Ossorio -- MR. JOSLIN: -- handled, I'm sure. MR. BLUM: -- would staff say that, to your knowledge? I can't imagine one of your investigators would tell a customer that. MR. OSSORIO: Our policy's always been when we tell these homeowners per your contract, what's in your contract, what's per the draw. And if Mr. Bowersox needs me to call the homeowner and facilitate that, I will. I find it hard to believe that Allen Kennette would say something like that unless there was some just cause in the contract to say that, you know, that it wasn't -- he didn't get any lien releases or he wasn't due the money. So I'm not here to talk about it. MR. BLUM: So we have your assurances that staff will not in any way impede him getting paid if the work is done to the customer's satisfaction. MR. OSSORIO: Not at my office, no. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And if lien releases are given to those suppliers who supply to notice of commencement. I mean, you -- MR. JOSLIN: I want both of these cases history. In other words, I want these cases off the records and finalized. MR. BOWERSOX: There should be only one case pending, right? MR. BLUM: No, it's the Yorka and-- MR. JOSLIN: As of right now there are two. Whether or not they're paid or not, something in writing -- MR. BLUM: They've not been permitted and final inspection. MR. JOSLIN: Which two? MR. BARTOE: Mr. Hoyo -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Whoa, whoa, please, one at a time. Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: Mr. Hoyo's case has been taken care of-- MR. BLUM: Final inspection? Page 66 September 20, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One at a time. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Hoyo's case is done, according to Allen Kennette, the investigator. My case, Mr. Y orka, we only have this last lien, which we have a release that's not recorded. That should be simple for him to do and get a copy to me that I can get to the Y orkas. Re-ap the permit, get final inspections, get the screen people to call for their final on the screen enclosure and get a certificate of completion. And I need a letter from the Y orkas stating we have worked out this $2,900 restitution. MR. BLUM: Can this be done in 10 days -- MR. BARTOE: -- 1,500 with a baby fence or something. MR. BOWERSOX: I think so. MR. JOSLIN: Well, I think if you really want to get this handled -- I've been a licensed pool contractor in this town for almost 30 years. If you want to get this handled, I suggest you get on it right now. And I suggest you put your whole heart and energy into this, because I'm not kidding, this time you won't get -- your license is gone. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can I add one thing to you? MR. JOSLIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There's no excuse he can't take a business and law exam within that 10-day period. MR. JOSLIN: None. MR. BLUM: None. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's given every two weeks in Naples, correct? And there I have no sympathy for you and you have no excuse. MR. BOWERSOX: Let me know where it's taken, I'll take it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, that's up to you to find out. I don't take you by the hand. You have no excuse for that whatsoever. You find out where Gainesville does the testing, and if it's not there Page 67 September 20, 2006 within 10 days -- I mean, I'm going to try to get him to add that to the motion. No excuses. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, just for schooling and testing, 10 days is nice, but 14 days would be better, just in case it falls in another week, he'd need another week. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: So if it's four days, you know, plus or minus -- MR. JOSLIN: Okay, I'll go the 14 days. MR. OSSORIO: Fourteen days is two weeks. That's a little more pleasing to the ears. MR. JOSLIN: Okay, 14 days. Now, you understand what we're talking about here -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: State it again. MR. JOSLIN: -- Mr. Bowersox? MR. BOWERSOX: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: State your motion again. MR. GUITE': Start all over. MR. JOSLIN : Yeah, start all over. All right, that your license now is under suspension and that you cannot pull any further privileges -- anymore permit -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's not under suspension. Start over. It's not under suspension. That can't work. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Joslin. May I interject something, make it a little simpler, maybe? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, please. MR. LEWIS: Follow the order of the board, and we've extended it another 14 days. MR. BLUM: That's all. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very good. MR. JOSLIN: I'll put that into a motion. MR. LEWIS: That is my -- (Several people speaking at one time.) Page 68 September 20, 2006 MR. NEALE: If I would suggest one thing, that he has 14 days to complete the previously issued order of the board. And if he does not complete that within 14 days, then his license is revoked without further hearing, so that's clear. MR. JOSLIN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you write what Mr. Neale just said and put Mr. Lewis' name on it as a motion? MR. LEWIS: Please. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You have to complete everything within 14 days. Do I hear a second? MR. GUITE': I'll second it, Guite'. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anymore discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you understand that if you don't, you don't corne back here. It's automatically revoked. You're on your own. MR. BOWERSOX: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. You got 14 days-- MR. BLUM: Opposed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, opposed. MR. BLUM: I oppose. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, five in favor, one opposed. You've got 14 days and that's it. MR. BOWERSOX: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That was -- I have to agree with -- I kind of stayed out of that. But I agree with the route that you guys Page 69 September 20, 2006 were gOIng. And the reason I do, Mr. Ossorio, is only because the one thing I've always tried to do on this board is look out for the consumer, which is our number one purpose. And you do, too, and I'm not saying you don't. But obviously you know if we get anymore cases in here, that's it. But I would love to see these people get taken care of and give them one -- we gave him a second chance. First time I've seen a second chance. MR. JOSLIN: I agree. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Obviously there's no -- we ended any possibility of a third chance. MR. GUITE': Well, I just didn't want to see it turned into a circus like they had up in Charlotte County where they didn't even take any testimony at all, they just boom, boom, boom, and you're out the door. And that's not fair. It's not fair to the homeowner, it's not fair to the contractor. And he did let me down. I really had faith that he'd corne back, everything paid for, I'm a great guy, and he just let me down. But I didn't want to see the homeowners get stuck. Because the homeowner is going to have an attorney, it's going to cost them money, which is going to cost Mr. Bowersox more money, because they're going to find against him, and he's going to have to pay for their attorney's fees. I don't want to see -- I hope to God he comes back and says I did everything in 10 days. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ifhe doesn't, he won't corne back to this board. Either he does it in 10 days -- or 14 days or the license is automatically -- MR. GUITE': I don't want to see him again ifhe doesn't do that. MR. BLUM: This will corne back to bite us. MR. JOSLIN: No. Have faith. MR. BLUM: None. I have zero faith in that gentleman, I'm Page 70 September 20, 2006 sorry . CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR.OSSORIO: Just to clarify. When you revoke somebody's license, it's not a win/win situation for the county. It's not a win for the board, it's not a win for the homeowner. So I agree with the board's decision, but I need to answer to someone higher than the board. I have to answer to the homeowners who corne in my office and tell me what do we do about it, and what can we do about it. And we'll see if it works out. MR. GUITE': We're going to find out in two weeks. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If it works out, the Y orkas are happy. If it doesn't, they're no further ahead than they were today. MR.OSSORIO: Just remember, 14 days, these two cases are done. Fourteen more days he'll be right back here again. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, he won't. MR. BLUM: Mr. Ossorio? MR.OSSORIO: That probation period is for those two cases only, not for the two cases that are pending. MR. BARTOE: It's an automatic revocation. You can't bring somebody before the board who's revoked ifhe doesn't fulfill that. MR. BLUM: Mr. Ossorio, win, lose or draw, would you put it on your agenda to give us an update next month? Because it will be four weeks and a lot of us will probably forget all about this. And I sure would like to be reminded of what transpired. MR. OSSORIO: That's correct. That's fine. Now, just to get off on a tangent, we are having a licensing board meeting next month, but it won't be in the BCC meeting room, it will be down in the Horseshoe Drive office. It will be on a Thursday, I believe. MR. BARTOE: Friday, the 20th. It's on your agenda. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: October 18th? MR. BARTOE: October 20th. Friday. It's on the next meeting Page 71 September 20, 2006 date on your agenda for today. MR. GUITE': Do you have parking spaces reserved for us? MR. OSSORIO: We have plenty of parking for you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just a quick review. Do you print out these minutes of the state boards? This is their quarterly newsletter, which they're no longer mailing anymore. I printed this for you. You have to get them online. State's going to save paper. Well, that's interesting. Which means now maybe 10 percent of the people who used to read these will no longer ever see them again. But there were some actions taken on swimming pool contractors' licenses, like above ground pools and whether you can do a screen enclosure and all that. But I've also gone through and highlighted all the local contractors that the state dealt with. Thought you would -- MR.OSSORIO: Yeah, we had a Mr. Bravo, Bravo Construction. I know we had him in front of the licensing board the last couple of months, and we did communicate with the state through e-mail and through letter corresponding. And they are going forward against his license. And hopefully we'll see some good outcome and good literature on that in the next couple of weeks. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, the people that -- well, the ones I highlighted were all over the news anyway. They were roofing contractors. But I'll give that to you. Reminder to the board members, please put your second entity packets up here so those can be destroyed or shredded, financial documents. MR. JOSLIN: Before we break could you-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sure, go ahead. MR. JOSLIN: I just wanted to make the board aware of what I had just found out here last couple of days ago. About a month or two ago I spoke to you about subcontractor licenses for the swimming pool trade. Well, it has been approved Page 72 September 20, 2006 through Tallahassee. Everything is good to go. And I'm going to probably be one of the proctors giving the exam. But it is a state certified subcontract license. It's not a county license. Therefore, I'm just wondering, we're probably not going to have any jurisdiction over all of these subcontractors that are going to be working for certified pool contractors, unless something changes. MR. OSSORIO: My take on it is, is when we see that certified license working in a pool and they're under the direction of the pool contractor, I have no problem. I will have a problem if it's state certified and he brings the card out and he's working in a home laying tile. I don't have a problem ifhe's working for a homeowner laying tile in a pool. But we'll corne up with some kind of a policy and procedure when we do that. MR. JOSLIN: One of the clarifications I was trying to get, I haven't gotten it yet, if this subcontractor can work for a general contractor. MR. OSSORIO: I don't think so. MR. JOSLIN: I think it clearly states it has to be a licensed pool contractor. MR. OSSORIO: I think he has to be under the direction of a licensed, registered, certified pool contractor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We got a little bit heated today, didn't we? That's good. That's good. MR. LEWIS: I personally would like to thank the board for all their comments. It shows actually to the public that we do care about what we're doing here, that we're not just here to be another pretty face. MR. BLUM: That would be pretty hard. MR. LEWIS: Yeah, I want a reaction. Page 73 September 20, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any comments from legal? MR. NEALE: After the pretty face comment, I can't say anymore. MR. LEWIS: Hard to follow that up, isn't it? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay, do I hear a motion to adjourn? MR. LEWIS: So moved. MR. BLUM: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE': Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. ****** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11 :03 a.m. CONTRACTOR'S LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON, CHAIRMAN Page 74