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CLB Minutes 08/16/2006 R August 16, 2006 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida, August 16, 2006 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractors' Licensing Board, in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9 a.m., in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: LES DICKSON LEE HORN SYDNEY BLUM MICHAEL BOYD ANN KELLER ERIC GUITE WILLIAM LEWIS (absent) RICHARD JOSLIN (absent) ALSO PRESENT: PATRICK NEALE, Attorney for the Board ROBERT ZACHARY, Assistant County Attorney MICHAEL OSSORIO, Contractor Licensing Supervisor ANDREW WUHRER, Contractors' Licensing Department Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: AUGUST 16, 2006 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: July 2006 V. DISCUSSION: VI. NEW BUSINESS: Thomas A. Turner - Request to reinstate painting license without exams. Neil H. Baker - Review of Credit Report. VII. OLD BUSINESS: Continued review of proposed Ordinance VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS: Case # 2006-09 Andrew A. Wuhrer (Contractor Licensing Dept.) Vs Thomas M. Williams D/B/A Golden Bear Air Cooling & Heating IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: Wednesday, September 20,2006 August 16, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning. I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board for August 15th. This is the 15th, isn't it? Try 16th of 2006. If any of you wish to appeal a decision of this board, you will need a verbatim recording -- record of this meeting which is being taken. I'd like to start with the roll call to my right. MR. BLUM: Syd Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. MR. HORN: Lee Horn. MR. BOYD: Mike Boyd. MR. GUITE: Eric Guite. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We do have a quorum. Mr. Ossorio, any additions or deletions to the minutes? MR. OSSORIO: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Mike Ossorio, Collier County Contractor Licensing. We do have an addition. It's Peter Spiska. And I have his information here. I'm going to go ahead and deliver it to you. And we do have something that I want to talk to you before we start today. If we could start in a different order. I would like to take the -- the Contractor Licensing Case No. 2006-09 in front of new business if that's all right with you, Mr. Dickson? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No problem. MR.OSSORIO: We do have someone here to testify and, unfortunately, he has to get back to his practice. And we want to go ahead and expedite that as possible. For the court reporter and-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Zachary needs a copy and Pat Neale needs a copy as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This is to qualify as -- MR. OSSORIO: Yes, it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Okay. I need a motion to approve the agenda as changed. Page 2 August 16, 2006 MR. BLUM: So moved, Blum. MR. HORN: Second, Horn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Next, the minutes. Have you-all had a chance to read over those? (Ms. Keller enters meeting.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning. We just started early so don't feel bad. MS. KELLER: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you've had a chance to look at the minutes, we can have a motion to approve those or amend them either way. MR. BLUM: So moved, Blum. MR. HORN: Second, Horn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What we're going to do because ofa witness that we need who has to leave, we're going to jump now to public hearings Case No. 2006-09, Andrew A. Wuhrer versus -- oh, that's a contractor licensing. I'm confused. MR. OSSORIO: Yeah. It's going to be the petitioner will be the Board of County Commissioners Contractor Licensing. Page 3 August 16, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is the way that should be written? MR.OSSORIO: Yeah. That should be written Board of County Commissioners, Andy Wuhrer, Contractor Licensing versus Thomas M. Williams doing business as Golden Bear Air Cooling and Heating. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And before we get started, I'd like to -- someone to make a motion to enter -- approve the packet or enter the packet. MR. BLUM: So moved, Blum. MR. HORN: Second, Horn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is Thomas Williams -- are you here? He's not here, so I don't need to go through my spiel how this runs. Who's going to present this, Mike? MR. OSSORIO: Andy Wuhrer will be presenting for the county. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let the record state that Thomas M. Williams d/b/a Golden Bear Air Cooling and Heating is not present. Mr. Neale -- MR. NEALE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- is this legalese since we changed the agenda and went straight to this case out of order? MR. NEALE: What I would say is ifMr. Williams appears anytime during the hearing, you would -- you could reopen the case. But if he does not appear during the pendency of the hearing, he just does not appear. So you get to find based on the evidence presented. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me go back to the county staff. Page 4 August 16, 2006 What was your notice of notifying him? MR.OSSORIO: We sent him certified letters return receipt. And we sent -- we visited his property in Cape Coral. We spoke to him on the phone several occasions, so we've given him ample notice. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So there's no doubt whatsoever that he knew this was happening this morning? MR.OSSORIO: There was no doubt. MR. NEALE: The receipt was returned? MR.OSSORIO: Yes, it was. MR. NEALE: He accepted it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did he give you an indication he wasn't coming? MR.OSSORIO: His indication was that he understands that there's a problem and he was going to take care of it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let's proceed, Andy. MR. WUHRER: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. For the record, Andy Wuhrer, contractor licensing. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, can he get sworn in, please. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. (The oath was administered.) MR. WUHRER: I do. On 5/16 I received a complaint from Dr. Chris Cugini that his air conditioner had been replaced by Golden Bear AC and Heating. And that was replaced at his address at 5574 12th Avenue Southwest. Dr. Cugini is present and he will testify this morning that Golden Bear did do the work. And that he acknowledges -- he determined that there was no permit pulled. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's it? MR. WUHRER: That would be about all for the opening statement, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. You might as well go ahead and present your case because I don't have an opening statement from Page 5 August 16, 2006 the other party. MR. WUHRER: Okay. Fine. As Mr. Ossorio had stated there was several attempts made to contact Mr. Williams, four to be concise. And one personal visit to his residence where we spoke to the daughter, left the notice and photographed the notice which is in the packet E-8 and E-9. Mr. -- Mr. Williams was a difficult person to reach. We -- he has subsequently sold the business to another company. And, apparently, that particular company signed for one of the -- one of the letters and it came back with their signature, but there were three additional addresses for Mr. Williams. Each of which was sent and had returned unpicked up certified letters for the meeting. He did phone me at one time. I explained to him that the meeting would be held today. And he said he would take care of the problem. That's been over the last two, possibly, three weeks. Daily checks were made. No permits were attempted to be pulled. And to date we do not have a permit. As Mr. Ossorio stated, we did make a trip to Cape Coral to post those which were those two photographs that I mentioned. And on -- on E-11 which Dr. Cugini will attest to are photographs of the units that were replaced at the doctor's residence at E-10. Both of those photographs represent those two units that were replaced by Golden Bear. And I would like to have Dr. Cugini called, if I may? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: A couple questions before doing that. MR. WUHRER: Sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Were the air handlers replaced or just the condensers, compressors outside? MR. WUHRER: I believe the entire units, but I think Dr. Cugini will have to attest to that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Another thing I'd love to -- do you have a copy of E-7 that's legible? MR. WUHRER: That did not come through very well, no. But Page 6 August 16, 2006 it may be a little bit more readable than -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Even yours isn't any better. MR. WUHRER: If you really concentrate, you can pick out 90 percent, but it's very, very hard to -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll let someone with better eyes than mine. Go ahead. You want to call a witness? MR. WUHRER: Yes. Dr. Cugini, please. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Over here. And if I could if you would state your name and I'll have you sworn in, sir. DR. CUGINI: My name is -- my full name is Chris G. Cugini, Jr., C-u-g-i-n-i. (The oath was administered.) DR. CUGINI: I do. First, I'd like to thank the commission for taking my case first. I do have to get back to my practice and I appreciate you doing that. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sure. MR. WUHRER: Dr. Cugini, if you could take a look at Photographs E-1 0, E-11. DR. CUGINI: Yes. MR. WUHRER: Do those photographs accurately represent the replaced units at your residence? DR. CUGINI: Yes, they do. MR. WUHRER: Okay. The replacement cost for that unit was? DR. CUGINI: It was approximately $15,000. MR. WUHRER: Okay. And when -- can you tell me when you first learned that these units were replaced without a proper permit being pulled? DR. CUGINI: Well, the whole thing started because -- what happened was a few weeks after they were installed, the units didn't work. So we -- we called back the original company to come back and take a look at it and see why it wasn't working. And, well, Page 7 August 16, 2006 anyway, there was some complaints about that part, but you're interested in the permit part. But I wanted to make a complaint about the contractor because the service wasn't good. And I have photos that I brought with me of the initial work that they did where they left wires hanging out and there was debris all over the place. And so I was upset about that so I wanted to make a complaint about the contractor. And then when I called your department -- the department where Andy works, they -- they said that they looked up to see if there was a permit and there was no permit. And that's how I found out. MR. WUHRER: Have you made any additional attempts to contact this contractor directly? DR. CUGINI: Just -- just -- no. Just initially they -- they sent someone else back to clean up the mess and put the wires where they're supposed to be and kind of fix what was -- was not done the first time. And the person who came back said he was tired of cleaning up these guy's messes is basically what it was. And so after that point I -- I didn't try to make contact with him because I -- I actually made a few phone calls, but never got any return phone calls. I tried to have him repair some of the damage he did to my -- the attic door where he broke the attic door and I had to have that replaced. He broke -- he took -- he used my ladder and broke my ladder. And I was trying to get him to reimburse me for that. And, of course, had no responses to that either. And so I stopped trying to contact him probably in February was probably the last time. MR. WUHRER: I think that's about all I have. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have a list of questions. Does the air conditioner work now? DR. CUGINI: It appears to be working, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Has anyone else worked on it besides this individual? DR. CUGINI: No. Page 8 August 16, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did he replace the air handler? DR. CUGINI: He replaced -- the whole entire system was replaced. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The entire system. Okay. Did you get other bids? How did you -- how did you find this guy in Cape Coral? DR. CUGINI: Well, he -- actually, what happened -- it's a funny story. My wife was here before I was moving -- moving here about a year ago. And we had somebody doing carpet work for us and the people were giving my wife a hard time. So she was afraid staying in a place herself. So she hired a guard to stay overnight one night because she was really afraid. And this person who was the guard actually wound up working for this air-conditioning place. And just he called my wife one day and, you know, because we knew -- we knew the units were kind of old and they did need -- they did need replacement. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. DR. CUGINI: So -- so, you know, she just wound up talking to him and getting -- doing it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you didn't get any other bids? DR. CUGINI: That -- no. I don't think so. My wife -- my wife took care of that. I wasn't involved in that unfortunately. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. But everything is fine now? DR. CUGINI: As far as I can tell. I'm not a mechanic. I'm not an air-conditioning person. I may be -- they say we were supposed to be saving money on this higher SEER type air-conditioning unit but, actually, our -- it seems like our bills are going up. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. DR. CUGINI: So I'm not so sure. MS. KELLER: Everybody's are. DR. CUGINI: I'm not so sure, you know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That has nothing to do with the Page 9 August 16, 2006 air-conditioner. I'm using the same wattage and everything I did last year and it's $100 more a month. DR. CUGINI: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So that's not true. MR. BLUM: Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead. MR. BLUM: The -- the bill -- the bill -- it's not really a bill. To me it looks like an estimate, like, a job order estimate. Is that the only paperwork you got from this guy? DR. CUGINI: I -- I was looking for the final bill. I had it on my desk at work and I was trying to find that before I came here to bring you a copy in, but I wasn't able to find it. And we found out about this about a day or two ago. So I had -- I, unfortunately, wasn't as prepared as I wanted to be. But I do have -- let me see. I might just check one more time here. I have a copy of the bill that they brought the second time when they came to -- MR. BLUM: That's really not an invoice that -- that we have there. DR. CUGINI: Right. I understand what you're saying. I have it. I can submit that to you if you -- MR. BLUM: There's no model number and serial number of either the condensers or the air handlers, so there's no way of finding out whether you did get 14 SEER or not. And I would say that would be something you should be interested in. DR. CUGINI: Okay. MR. BLUM: What little bit that I can make out on that bill it says one year parts and labor. It appears to me to be Lenox equipment and that's just a guess by the picture. I would say your warranty guarantee should be maybe five or ten years based on what the equipment is from the manufacturer which is something else you probably want to look into from a local Lenox dealer or Bryant. It's either Bryant or Lennox. I don't know which. I can't tell for sure. But Page 10 August 16, 2006 either one of them has a pretty terrific warranty guarantee. DR. CUGINI: Uh-huh. MR. BLUM: That just -- just as an aside. DR. CUGINI: Okay. MR. BLUM: You might want to get a local -- whatever -- whatever manufacturer it is, Bryant or Lenox, get a local person and have them tell you what's what with that, check your model numbers. DR. CUGINI: Okay. MR. BLUM: It's a very easy thing to do. DR. CUGINI: Okay. Thank you. MR. BLUM: I'm -- I'm troubled also with the issue of workmen's comp and liability insurance which is lapsed quite some time ago. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where are you seeing that? MR. BLUM: There's -- there's another sheet in there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because I don't have it. MR. BLUM: The sheet detailed certificate of detail or detailed certificate whatever you call it. MS. KELLER: E-6. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, there we go. MR. BLUM: And that troubles me a lot. You know, we try to -- we try to make it clear to the public that we want to find out (A) that people have licenses and that they're licensed contractors. Then you find out whether they have the proper insurance. So if someone's hurt, it's not your liability on your property and so forth. These are all ancillary things to the -- to the problem. But with the nature of the lack of response from this contractor, all this other stuff now just becomes more nails. DR. CUGINI: Uh-huh. MR. BLUM: Did -- did you sign for the work? Did you agree -- when you -- DR. CUGINI: My wife did. MR. BLUM: Because I didn't notice a signature on that before -- Page 11 August 16, 2006 DR. CUGINI: On the final bill which I -- I'm sorry I don't have with me -- I believe she signed for it. I mean, neither of us are construction people or mechanical people. MR. BLUM: Yeah. It's just a shame that this kind of thing happens. DR. CUGINI: And, apparently, it's happened to a number of people. Because the person who came back to repair what the first person, you know, didn't do, was complaining that for the last three months he had been following up this other guy's footsteps and trying to tidy things up. MR. BLUM: Yeah. He's got a substantial drive from Cape Coral down here to your place and back. That's all I have. MR. WUHRER: Mr. Chairman, if I may. Just so that we understand that that company originally when it was in business was out of Fort Myers on Bruner Lane in Fort Myers. That's probably where the doctor found him originally. Now Ken Mark Air owns that company. MR. BLUM: Ken Mark bought them? MR. WUHRER: Correct. MR. BLUM: So is -- is Golden Bear doing business as Ken Mark or -- MR. WUHRER: No. No. There's no affiliation. There was no liability purchases at the time of change-over. So he's just out there whatever he's doing, he's doing totally on his own. MR. BLUM: Oh, okay. Strictly on his own, but his license is still active? MR. WUHRER: The license is active until the 31 st of August, I believe. MR. BLUM: Yeah. MR. WUHRER: And his workmen's comp and liability have expired awhile back so... Page 12 August 16, 2006 MR. BLUM: So he can't pull a permit anyway? MR. WUHRER: No. But I figure ifhe came down here he could have -- to the office, which we invited him to do, he could make those corrections and get that stuff up to date and then go back. Or -- or find another contractor who was up to date with everything to pull it for him, but he never showed for the appointment as well so... MR. BLUM: I'm just wondering, again, as an aside if, Ken Mark is aware that he's out there doing business after he sold his business to them. MR. WUHRER: I don't know that that's a fact. MR. BLUM: Yeah. MR. WUHRER: I just know that he is no longer affiliated with that company at that address. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've got a couple of areas I need to clear up also. I got a state license here. MR. WUHRER: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I've also got a certificate number. I've not seen this before. Mr. Neale, did you notice that? MR. NEALE: Well, in -- there have been a couple of cases in the past where this board has heard proceedings against state -- state licensed contractors. And the board can do so under certain circumstances. The -- the board may hear -- and this is under Section 22-201.1 -- the following actions by state certified contractors shall constitute misconduct and grounds for discipline pursuant to Section 22-202 of this article for (1) failing or refusing to provide proof of public liability and property damage insurance coverage and workers' compensation insurance coverage as required by Florida statutes. Or (2) willfully violating the applicable building codes or laws of the State, City or Collier County. As charged in here, they do fall under that. When we get -- should the board find he's in violation, the disciplinary sanctions that this board may impose are different than Page 13 August 16, 2006 those that can be imposed on a locally licensed contractor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because this printout that we have in front of us -- and I don't know what date it was printed out -- yeah, I do -- August 4th of '06, his status isn't -- his state license is inactive. Top right-hand corner. MR. WUHRER: 8/31. MR. BLUM: Well, that would have to do with the purchase of the company from Ken Mark. But down below his state license doesn't expire until August 31 st. Theoretically the guy himself can still do business under his license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I think it was already thrown inactive because he doesn't have insurance on file. MR. OSSORIO: Exactly right. When a state contractor comes aboard and wants to pull a building permit, we issue him a certificate number and that certificate number follows our building permit process in the computer system. And once a state contractor renews every two years, because that's when he renews with Tallahassee, well, he has to come in with workers' comp insurance like all state contractors do every two years or when they go out of inactive due to workers' comp or insurance. Because state law is pretty explicit in reporting on how it tells when a state contractor registers his license with the counties or cities. He has -- he has to provide certain things, workers' comp insurance and pay a nominal fee to get registered to get a certificate to pull building permits. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because the picture here is much larger than just the county. Because if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Neale, it's a felony to be contracting without workers' comp and liability insurance. Is that not correct? MR. NEALE: I believe that is true. And what would be done should the board find him in violation is within 15 days after the board taking action, a notice would be provided to the state board of the action of this board for them to take action against him. Page 14 August 16, 2006 MR. OSSORIO: No. I didn't want to get into this on this level; but just because the system says he's inactive, doesn't mean he doesn't have workers' comp or workers' comp exemption. So we don't know what he has due to the fact he hasn't come in and provided that to us. The only thing we know for a fact is that he didn't pull a building permit. The state will get involved once we finish here the finding of fact, if you do find him in violation, we'll send a copy to Tallahassee and they will take action and take severe action. When I was talking to DPR about it and -- and it might trickle down to Lee County, Cape Coral, all through other counties as well. What we do today follows him to Cape Coral in six months probably. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Because DPR gentleman in Fort Myers, I assume, you've met him. MR. OSSORIO: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very aggressive. MR.OSSORIO: Very. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've called him on several issues. MR.OSSORIO: So this is a first step of many. And so we just need -- the DPR will not investigate code violations. That is up to the county. As you can see under our ordinance, it does explain that we have obligation to make sure that every state and local contractor abides by the Florida statutes and by the Florida building code. And once we take action, it gets forwarded to Tallahassee and they take action. And believe me, I bet you within two months, we'll hear from Mr. Williams hopefully with a check for some damages that he incurred by us taking time off to go to Cape Coral and spending a half a county -- a half a day's pay looking for him. So that's one of the things we'll be looking at. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, and with an air-conditioner license too for all of those who are not aware, you can pull these on-line. So there's no excuse. I mean, he doesn't have to go over on Page 15 August 16, 2006 Horseshoe. MR. OSSORIO: No. Unfortunately, he does. Only the fact is that his workers' comp and liability insurance is -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, ifhe's-- MR.OSSORIO: Ifhe actually just faxed it to us and we've got copies of it, that's fine. Or got rid of -- some people get rid of their workers' comp policy and just use the exemption which would be fine too as well. So there's a variety of different things he could have done, but this is not his first time in our office or a first time us calling about a building permit issue. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anything else? MR. WUHRER: Not from me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you paid everything in full? DR. CUGINI: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. DR. CUGINI: Unfortunately, yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have any other questions? MR. ZACHARY: I've got one question, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. ZACHARY: Is this -- is this the type of work that needs a permit to -- for the contractor to perform the work? MR. WUHRER: Yes. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? DR. CUGINI: Is there anyone interested in just seeing the pictures of the kind of work he did. I know it doesn't really pertain to permits, but maybe you want to see -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't think it'll influence us. DR. CUGINI: Out of curiosity. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then I don't have to enter-- DR. CUGINI: Okay. Page 16 August 16, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- it as an exhibit and all that. MR. BLUM: As an aside, when -- when and if you contact the local dealer for that equipment -- DR. CUGINI: Yes. MR. BLUM: -- you might make some arrangement because your equipment is going to be covered. And I suspect you're going to have a problem with this guy if you have warranty issues down the road. DR. CUGINI: Right. MR. BLUM: So it would be a good idea to align yourself with somebody locally that can -- that's aware of it and can handle it for you. DR. CUGINI: I appreciate that advice. MR. BLUM: It is a factory warranty, not a dealer warranty. DR. CUGINI: Okay. Very good. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, let me add just the one thing. I'd like to have Andy Wuhrer read into the record the actual section of the Florida Building Code, what he is in violation of, Section 105. And I believe that's E-12. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You can go -- Doctor, you can go ahead and sit down if you want. DR. CUGINI: Yes. MR.OSSORIO: If you can just read 105.1 to us. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, and do your -- do your entire-- Andy, do your entire closing statement to include recommendations of the county and everything else. MR. WUHRER: Okay. Should I do that prior to this? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. Go ahead and do that first. MR. WUHRER: (As read): Section 105 permits under 105.1 required any owner or authorized agent who intends to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish or change the occupancy of a building or structure are to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, Page 1 7 August 16, 2006 convert or replace any electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing system installation of which is regulated by this code or to cause any such work to be done shall first make application to the building official and obtain the required permit. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anything else you have in your case and, if so, present it. If not, a closing remark. MR. WUHRER: Sure. I -- I have nothing further in the case itself. We have made several attempts, obviously, to contact Mr. Williams and try to rectify this without actually making him come to the board to explain why the situation as it is without any -- without any luck on our part. We gave him ample opportunity to come in and -- and take care of some of the smaller problems fully understanding, I'm sure, that he has a state violation here as well. So -- which is probably his inducement not to show up. We currently have 20 permits that were pulled by this gentleman in '05. I think one or two which may have been C.O.ed. The rest are still -- still open. So this is not just a happenstance. It's something he's got some degree of regular conduct in doing this. So our recommendation to the board would be -- you have something more than one? We recommend that he have a $500 fine attached to this. And we will present this to the state subsequent to this hearing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What would you estimate the costs to the county are? MR. WUHRER: I would say it's probably somewhere between four and five hundred dollars. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, may I elaborate on this for a few seconds. I believe for the penalty for working without a building permit under the state level under 255 of their section is $1,000 penalty. That is the bear minimum. I'm not sure that's something so we decided to Page 18 August 16, 2006 split in half to recommend to the state that he get penalized $500 for -- for not pulling a building permit. We incurred about $1,000 in man-hours just try to locate him staff-wise. We also recommend you pull his building privileges so he is no longer able to pull building permits in Collier County, City of Naples or Marco Island. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's not doing it anyway. MR. OSSORIO: That's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anything else? MR. WUHRER: That's all from me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Does anybody have a question? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to move to close public hearing. MR. GUITE: So moved. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? MS. KELLER: Second, Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just so those of you that are here know what we're doing. At this point we're finished. Now you hear the deliberation phase that we go through publicly. The first thing we will do is address the charge. Once that's been addressed, ifhe's found guilty, the second thing we will do is address the penalty phase. And we start off with the suits, Mr. Neale. Page 19 August 16, 2006 MR. NEALE: In reviewing this case, the board shall ascertain in deliberations that fundamental fairness and due process have been afforded to the respondent. However, pursuant to Section 22-202(G)(5) of the Collier County code, the formal rules of evidence is set out in Florida statutes shall not apply. The board shall consider solely evidence presented at the hearing in the consideration of this matter. The board shall exclude from its deliberations irrelevant, immaterial and cumulative testimony. It shall admit and consider all other evidence of a type commonly relied upon by a reasonably prudent person in the conduct of their affairs. This is whether or not the evidence so admitted would be admissible in a court of law or equity. As noted to this board previously, hearsay may be used to explain or supplement any other evidence. Hearsay by itself is not sufficient to support a finding in this or any other case unless it would be admissible over objections in civil court. The standard of proof in a case like this wherein the respondent may lose his privileges to practice his profession is that the evidence presented by the complainant must prove the complainant's case in a clear and convincing manner. This burden of proof on the complainant is a larger burden than the preponderance of evidence standard set in normal civil cases. The standard established for sanctions other than those effecting the license is that of a preponderance of the evidence. The standard and evidence are to be weighed solely as to the charges set out in the complaint and those -- the charge set out in the complaint is under County Code 4.2.2, willfully violating the applicable building codes or laws of the state, city or Collier County. In order to support a finding that the respondent is in violation of the ordinance, the board must find facts to show that the violations were actually committed by the respondent. The facts must show to a clear and convincing standard the legal conclusions that the Page 20 August 16, 2006 respondent was in violation of the relevant sections. The charges are the only ones that the board may decide upon as those are the only ones to which the respondent had the opportunity to prepare a defense. The damages must be directly related to those charges. And in this case, the board is -- has to look at this a bit differently because the of the fact that this is a state certified contractor. The board must find that the contractor committed one of the following actions; and one of those is alleged which is willfully violating the applicable building codes or laws of the State, City or Collier County. And that would be a willful violation that the contractor did not pull a permits pursuant to 489.105. The decision made by this board shall be stated orally at this hearing and is effective upon being read. The respondent if found in violation has certain appeal rights to this board, the courts and state construction licensing board. The board shall vote based upon the evidence presented on all areas. And if it -- the board -- if it finds the respondent in violation, adopt the administrative complaint. The board shall also make findings of fact and conclusions of law in support of the charges setout. When the board -- should the board find the respondent in violation, it will then have its opportunity to consider sanctions including a recommendation of sanctions to the state. And I'll talk about the sanctions once the board has found liability. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just for an explanation purpose because I've had this question come up several times in the last month. We have a large viewing audience. They asked me who these two -- two people are. So I probably should explain. Patrick Neale is a private attorney in private practice. He is under contract to represent and protect the board, the licensing board. He's been with us now seven or eight years? MR. NEALE: Ten. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ten? How time flies. And my tenure Page 21 August 16, 2006 on the board which has been 17 or 18, he's by far the finest we have. So we always are glad when he renews his contract. Robert Zachary is also an attorney. And he is on the County Attorney's Office staff. His function here is to protect the county commissioners and the county. So we have two of them watching us very closely which we appreciate because we do deal with people's livelihoods on this board. So thank very -- both of them very much. Okay. Move into it. Just a reminder to the board, it's a state license. So there are some differences we have to deal with. And right off the bat the only issue we're dealing with: Did he pull a permit or not pull a permit? And that's the charge. And we really don't want to go any further than that. Okay? So with that, any discussion? MR. BLUM: It's pretty clear-cut. MR. HORN: I agree. It's pretty obvious. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: With that, does anyone have a motion? MR. HORN: I'll make a motion. I'll make a motion that we find the defendant guilty of violating 4.2.2 willfully violating the applicable building codes on the laws of the State, City or Collier County for not pulling a building permit in this instance. MR. GUITE: I'll second it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? Page 22 August 16, 2006 (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The vote is unanimous six to nothing. Bear with me just a minute. I need to read this into the record. Board of County Commissioners, Collier County, Florida as petitioner versus Thomas M. Williams who is the respondent Case No. 2006-09, License No. CAC 058087, Local County Certificate No. 27274. Contractor, this cause came before the public hearing Contractor Licensing Board on August 16th, 2006, for consideration of the administrative complaint filed against Thomas M. Williams. Service of the complaint was mailed -- made by certified mail and personal delivery; correct, Mr. Ossorio? MR. OSSORIO: That's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: In accordance with Collier County Ordinance 90-105 as amended. The board having heard testimony under oath received evidence and heard arguments respective to all appropriate matters. Thereupon, issues its finding of fact and conclusions of law. Finding of fact that Thomas M. Williams is holder of Certificate of Competency No. 27274 and Certified State Contractor License CAC 058087. Number 2, that the Board of Collier County Commissioners of Collier County, Florida, is the complainant in this matter. That the board had -- No.3, the board had jurisdiction to person of the respondent. And that Thomas M. Williams was not present at the public hearing and, therefore, not -- and also not represented by counsel. Number 4, all notices required by Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105 as amended have been properly issued. Number 5, the allegations of fact as set forth in the administrative complaint are approved, adopted and incorporated herein by reference as findings of fact. Conclusion of law, the conclusion of law let's -- Page 23 August 16, 2006 MR. NEALE: I would, Mr. Dickson, if I may I would suggest that the board add one additional findings of fact -- finding of fact. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. MR. NEALE: If you so approve, and that is that the respondent has failed to pull a permit for the work performed as required by Florida Statute Section 489.105. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. I've got that written in here on my notes and missed it. Thank you. Number 6, back on findings of fact that Thomas M. Williams was found in violation of 4.2.2, willfully violating the applicable building codes or laws of the State, City or Collier County. Sufficient? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Conclusion of law, the conclusion of law alleged and set forth in the administrative complaint are approved, adopted and incorporated herein. And bear with me just a minute. Go back to No.6. Was found in violation by a vote of six votes in favor and zero opposed. I'll do the order of the board after Mr. Neale's direction. MR. NEALE: All right. In this case, since the board's found the respondent in violation of Collier County ordinance, it has to decide upon sanctions to be imposed. In this case the sanctions are fairly limited, but the board has the authority to impose. These sanctions are set out in the codified ordinance in Section 22-203(B)(1). The sanction which may be imposed is that the board may deny the issuance of Collier County building permits or require the issuance of such permits with specific conditions. In considering those sanctions, the board shall consider the gravity of the violation, the impact of the violation, any actions taken by the violator to correct the violation, any previous violations committed, any other evidence presented at the hearing by the parties relevant as to the section that is appropriate to the case given the Page 24 August 16, 2006 nature of the action. In addition, the board shall issue a recommended penalty for the State Construction Industry Licensing Board. The penalty may include a recommendation for no further action or a recommendation of suspension, revocation or restriction of the registration or a fine to be levied by the state board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So just to summarize, Mr. Neale, only thing we can do is issue a penalty cost for the case itself? MR. NEALE: All you can do is issue a penalty denying him the issuance of Collier County and city building permits within the jurisdiction of this board. And then make a recommendation to the state board as to further sanctions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And that being -- because of the fact that he is a state certified contractor. MR. NEALE: Because he is a state certified contractor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very good. Discussion? MR. BLUM: My opinion would be that we fine him the $500 that I think we're allowed to do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I believe that can be 1,000, can it not? MR. NEALE: This board cannot fine him. MR. BLUM: Oh, we can't? MR. NEALE: You can make a recommendation of fine to the state board. The only thing you can do is deny the issuance of Collier County or city building permits or require the issuance with specific conditions. The fine would be a recommendation made to the state board for them to act upon. MR. BLUM: Okay. So as -- as allowed by our Collier County laws, I would recommend that his ability to pull permits be stopped immediately, that we recommend to the state that the maximum allowable sanction be imposed. MS. KELLER: Can we make a recommendation for him to be Page 25 August 16, 2006 fined by Collier County for the time that they spent investigating? MR. NEALE: What the board can do is -- is -- I don't believe that there's an ability for this board to request that the state board obtain investigative costs. Although, actually, that is a sanction that's available to the state board. So it probably could be a request made that should the state issue an order requiring compensation for investigative costs, that that would be shared with Collier County. They -- they wouldn't have to act on that, but that could be a recommendation made, I believe. MR. GUITE: Could we use that as a condition of him pulling more permits in this county as to reimburse the county for their expenses? MR. NEALE: I don't believe so. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You want to amend your motion? MR. BLUM: Sure. I would amend it to include recommending to the state that he be fined $1,000 maximum allowable amount and that -- that at the state's discretion refund Collier County's expenses to wit $500. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: A thousand. MR. BLUM: Thousand. Excuse me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That was the investigative cost; right, Mr.Ossorio? MR.OSSORIO: That's correct. MR. NEALE: The other -- you also need to make a recommendation -- the other things that you can recommend to the state, I mean, to be clear again is the recommendation to the state can include suspension, revocation or restriction of the -- of the -- the license or a fine to be levied. So you can also make a recommendation on his license. MR. BLUM: I would like to hear -- personally, I'd like to see his license revoked. I -- I -- he's made no effort. And the kind of work I've seen and kind of response to a customer I think is indicative that Page 26 August 16, 2006 he just doesn't care at all about how he treats his customers. So personally I'd like to see his license revoked. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So just to recap and make sure I've got this before we get a second. You are recommending that all permit-pulling privileges in Collier County be denied? MR. BLUM: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Recommendation to the state is to recapture on behalf of Collier County $1,000 of investigative costs. Two, $1,000 fine which I understand is the maximum recommendation. And No.3 that a state license be revoked. MR. BLUM: That's correct. MR. NEALE: Which I would suggest instead of setting the maximum dollar figure here is just recommend that the maximum fine amount be imposed and then let the state make that decision. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Have we got you totally confused now? Just so you-all are aware, we haven't dealt with a state license in years on this board. We deal with county licenses. And we -- so it's -- it's a whole different ball game. But I'm thrilled this state license came through because it speeds up actions by the state when we can do this. I'm glad you finally -- I'm glad under your direction this department is taking that stab to go after state licenses. I could not be happier. MR.OSSORIO: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because the backlog on cases in the state right now is still two to three years. And what you're doing is protecting Collier County immediately. And it's the best move I've ever seen from the Contractor Licensing Department. So job well done. Everyone understand the motion? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need a second. Page 27 August 16, 2006 MR. HORN: Second, Horn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion. MS. KELLER: I think we also need to thank Dr. Cugini for bringing -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I'm going to praise the heck out of him once I -- Call for the vote. All those in favor. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One more little legalese here. Order of the board, based upon the foregoing findings of fact and conclusions of law and pursuant to the authority granted in Chapter 489 Florida Statutes and Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105 as amended by a vote of six in favor and zero opposed, it is hereby ordered that the following disciplinary sanctions and related order are hereby imposed upon the holder of Collier County Certificate of Competency No. 27274. That is (1) that all permit-pulling privileges immediately be denied in Collier County with a recommendation to the state on State Certified Contractor License CAC 058087 that this be sent to the state with the following recommendations of action. Number 1, that the state recapture on behalf of Collier County investigative costs of $1,000. If collected to be forwarded back to Collier County. Number 2, that the maximum fines available be imposed upon this license holder. And No.3, that his license be revoked. That is it. End of the Page 28 August 16, 2006 hearing. Dr. Cugini, I couldn't praise you enough for giving us your time. What you've witnessed here is a fact, problem we have is a Collier County Licensing Board. You being a doctor you're through the state board as well. DR. CUGINI: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I hold a state license. But what happens a lot of times is it's very difficult for us to deal with state certified contractors because the state can only deal with their license. It's not that big a problem because of all the contractors in the State of Florida, only 10 percent are state certified. The 90 percent hold county licenses and we can react much further. This is a beautiful way -- we've had state contractors -- licensed contractors before that we needed to stop and our hands were tied. And Mr. Ossorio who just took over in the last 30 days for this department has found a way for us to deal with state contractors to protect the citizens of Collier County. And with you giving us your time, you've added to that. So we immensely appreciate the time you've given us. DR. CUGINI: Thank you for your time too. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I hope the advice you got up here will -- there's a lot of good air-conditioning contractors in this town. DR. CUGINI: I just chose the wrong one. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Well, that sometimes happens as well. But we wish you well and we thank you again. DR. CUGINI: Thank you very much. MR. BLUM: Michael? Mr. Ossorio? MR.OSSORIO: Yes. MR. BLUM: I know -- is it within our purview -- purview or within your purview to contact your counterpart in Lee County and make them aware of this? MR. OSSORIO: Sure. Page 29 August 16, 2006 MR. BLUM: Because I'm really worried that this guy's going to keep this up in Lee, Collier, Cape Coral. MR.OSSORIO: What happens is, and correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Neale, I know if we send our findings of facts to the Lee County Licensing Board, they may be able to take action against his license and pull his building privilege as well. They can't do anything else but pull it. But I think that's what we're going to be talking about in the next couple days once the order gets written and in my possession. We'll distribute it to many counties and we'll see what they do with it so... MR. BLUM: Please. MR.OSSORIO: This is going to be a domino effect. This is one step of many. And -- and hopefully we'll get some good response. MS. KELLER: There's so much crossover between the counties in work that's being done. I mean, I would say more of them coming here. MR.OSSORIO: Well, if you're a state contractor, you very well know, all you have to do is just register with the county if you want to pull building permits. So, yeah, there's a lot of crossover in counties. That's what the state allows. Hopefully we'll get something going in the next couple of weeks and then we'll see what we can do. MR. GUITE: What -- you said there has been of his permits have been C.O.ed. What can we do -- what can your office do to maybe check on these and make sure they were done right? Because, you know, you're telling me that there's 18 units out there that haven't been inspected; right? I mean, they could have a faulty ground wire. I mean -- MR.OSSORIO: They could be inspected. It could have failed inspection. It could have been a lot of things. I haven't actually looked into it. We generate on complaints. You know, I'm not going to sit here and tell you -- I'm not going to be able to go through all 18 on those. I mean, if I did that, I wouldn't ever get out of the office. Page 30 August 16, 2006 Hopefully, we're going to have some kind of a system. Weare having a new computer system coming on board soon that's going to stop all this. You're going to only get maybe 10 percent building permits. And then once you go through that -- that process, it's going to stop you from pulling it until you catch up to where you need to be. That's going to be up to the building director because he has a lot more authority to do so. So that's a wholly different entity when you're talking about building permits and the -- and the process and the contractor licensing are two different things. So we're working on it. I know it's -- 18's not a lot. I mean~ I've seen -- MR. GUITE: Right. MR. OSSORIO: -- a lot more. MR. BLUM: Well, there is a -- there is a way to do it. I mean, I've seen it happen that permits just are out there sometimes two, three, four years. Then all of a sudden somebody gets a notice. Hey, this one. This one. This one. And so forth haven't been finalized. MR.OSSORIO: We have done that in the past. MR. BLUM: I know you've done it. MR. OSSORIO: And we are going to -- I think we are going to aggressively look at that in the next couple months. I would say by January '07 you're going to see a big difference. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you could make a recommendation for Collier County and they're the only ones that don't do this. But when I pulled permits in Lee County or Cape Coral or City of Naples, within 30 days of getting my final inspection, they mailed to me a certificate of occupancy showing that that permit has been finaled. Which I immediately mailed to my customers so they know that it's been finaled. Because now these customers -- most of these permits have probably already expired which means a new permit. And this guy can't pull a permit now. So they've got to go to another air-conditioning company. MR.OSSORIO: Or come back in front of the licensing board Page 31 August 16, 2006 agaIn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Or even just a postcard. If Collier County Building Department could ever start that, I'd love to have it. MR.OSSORIO: I know that the building director is looking into it and the permitting supervisor. So it's an uphill battle. It's a -- it's a -- creates a big problem from the last regime. But we're going to work on it. I bet you by January '07, we're going to have some kind of a process to go through. So you'll get something in the mail. But the homeowner really needs to be aware if they're watching TV that once they have a contractor sign and get a building permit, you got to make sure you -- you stay on them to make sure no final payment is due until they get that -- that completion of final inspection 115 so... CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The trouble is they have no way of checking that. MR.OSSORIO: No. Until they get that piece of paper from you saying here I am. I'm complete per the contract of whatever -- whatever you're building. It could be a widget. And here's your final payment. Homeowner's got to be aware of that. They have to hold back some money so these contractors will come back in and get the completion ofa final building 115. So hopefully by January/February, I'm going to sit down with Bill Hammond, the building director, the next couple days. And I know they're working on it. It's a process that just can't be fixed overnight. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Turner, are you here? Thomas Turner? MR. TURNER: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If I could get you to come up to that podium and state your name and I'll have you sworn in, sir. MR. TURNER: My name's Thomas Allen Turner. (The oath was administered.) MR. TURNER: I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It looks like here you first had a Page 32 August 16, 2006 painting contractor's license in 1982. And it expired in 2004; is that correct? MR. TURNER: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And how long have you been in the business. MR. TURNER: Forty-some years. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You ought to know how to paint by now. MR. TURNER: Yes, sir. I started out in my granddad's boat yard. I painted many a bottom and a lot of tops, top sides. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm looking for your test. You're wanting to reactivate your license without having to go back and take the test; is that correct? MR. TURNER: Yes, sir. I would like to do that, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm looking for your test scores. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, you won't find his test scores. He was grand -- he's been a painter for so many years that he was grandfathered in. You can probably look at the letter I sent to him on 7/7/2006 and it might paragraph that for you, the third page in. Mr. Turner had some issues. He's been active with us for many years, decades no less. And he got sick, had some issues that he didn't renew his license for a period of a couple years. And the ordinance is pretty explicit about if you -- if your license has been revoked or -- or suspended, you need to take the exam. If you don't have the exam, you need to take the exam. I asked Mr. Turner to be here today. I think that he is a contractor that's -- that is established in this community. And I believe that him taking the exam would be -- serve no purpose to us. And I hope that you find in your -- your wisdom to grant his license back so he can get back to what he knows best is painting. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tell us what we can do, Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: Well, the board can waive testing requirements. Page 33 August 16, 2006 And I'll read for the record. Pursuant to Section 22-184, the board shall take testimony from the applicant and shall consider other relevant evidence regarding whether the applicant meets the requirements of this division. Getting to where the appropriate one here is, findings of fact and conclusions of law regarding the approval or denial of the application shall be made by the board. And the board may consider the applicant's relevant recent experience in the specific trade. And based upon such experience may waive -- waive testing requirements if convinced that the applicant is qualified by experience whereby such competency testing would be superfluous. So that's the MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, do you see the letter I sent to him on 7/7/2006? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I do. MR.OSSORIO: Okay. Do you see before that, it says CD class. It says grandfathered in the exam part? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. OSSORIO: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything you want to add, Mr. Turner? MR. TURNER: Yes, sir. I've got some statements of competency here with me if the board would like to review them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll tell you what, at this point unless someone else wants to look at them, I don't think we need to do that. MR. NEALE: The only thing I would suggest is have them in the record just for -- for support. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Yeah. Let's do that get them entered in. Yeah. If you would give them to the lady right there. I need to have them -- MS. KELLER: He took the trouble to get them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MS. KELLER: (Inaudible.) Page 34 August 16, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We'll mark them as Exhibit 1. Can we mark them all as a group? I will say this. I know you, Mr. Turner. You may not remember me. But I've dealt -- dealt with you about 15 -- gosh, 15 to 18 years ago. MR. TURNER: Is that right? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. It wasn't bad so don't worry. MR. TURNER: Well, good. Well, I've never been a courtroom on account of the work that I've done. And I've never had anybody complain that I know of. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Well, I remembered your name because there's another Tommy Turner. MR. TURNER: We're all related. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you-- MR. TURNER: There's three of us. I've got an uncle, a cousin that's in the masonry business. And I'm just the lowly painter. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is wild man -- is race car driving Tommy -- MR. TURNER: Yeah. That's my cousin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, my gosh. You all know Turner Construction. MR. GUITE: Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm looking at your credit report, I wish they all would look like this. I wish mine looked like this. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can I make a motion, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: You certainly may. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I move that this request be approved. I know this family. I know this man. Testing is an absolute waste of time only because he had some sickness. And I would love for him and people like him to be back in work in this county. MR. GUITE: I'll second it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? Page 35 August 16, 2006 (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those -- well, go ahead. MR. BLUM: I just -- I just want to note that ordinarily this is a pretty special case for this board in the time I've been on it. And it's the very first time I've ever had Mr. Ossorio's office make such a strong recommendation. I think that ought to be in the record as well. But this is not -- this is not your normal course of events for us with this type of application. But I wholly support the motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. But if you know this family too, they're hardly finer families in this town. MR. BLUM: I do. MR. TURNER: Mr. Chairman, can I say one other thing? I thank Michael. I didn't even know how to get here, you know, and he helped me. Told me what I had to do and I appreciate it, Michael. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, let's finalize this. Any other discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Call for a vote. All those in favor. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got it. You don't have to take a test. MR. TURNER: Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, the thing I need for you to do, that applies to you other gentlemen as well, don't go back over to contractor licensing today. Page 36 August 16, 2006 MR. TURNER: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because all of your paperwork is here. MR. TURNER: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But go there tomorrow and see Maggie and you can get all this done. MR. TURNER: Good. Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I wish you well. MR. TURNER: Appreciate it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's the quickest I've ever done one too. It's going to give everyone else the wrong impression here. Don't worry . Mr. Baker, are you present? If you'd come forward, sir. I need for you to state your name and I'll have you sworn in. MR. BAKER: Neil Baker. (The oath was administered.) MR. BAKER: I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So this is Bay Forest Homeowners Association, but it's a pool cleaning company; right? MR. BAKER: We have eight pools in -- within the association that I take care of. It's not like -- it's not my full-time job. I have other jobs that I do for Bay Forest. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And you've had some credit issues. So why don't we get to them, why don't you tell us that happened to cause those? MR. BAKER: It was from Alabama. And it was over a piece of property that I never owned that they say I owned and -- and was paid money on, but nobody's ever come up with a check. I've been through the IRS twice and mediation once. And I think what I'm going to have to end up having to do is go back to one of these places that they say on TV that we can settle it for pennies on the dollar. I don't see there's any way out that I'm -- I can't prove I didn't. He can't prove I did, but I'm wrong so... Page 37 August 16, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How can you be wrong? MR. BAKER: Well, I mean in error as I am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You never -- you never owned the property? MR. BAKER: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I think I'd see an attorney before I called an 800 number. MR. BAKER: Really? Okay. Well, maybe that's what I need to CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't you agree, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't -- don't call that 800 number. Okay? MR. BAKER: All right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Please. There's nothing on those 800 numbers that are free. MR. BAKER: Oh, I realize that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: To include free credit reports. MR. BAKER: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Get yourself an attorney that specializes in real estate. MR. BAKER: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And this town is full of them. MR. BAKER: Can they -- would it be -- it's an Alabama issue. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let him handle it. MS. KELLER: They'll find somebody. MR. BAKER: Oh, okay. All right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's got contacts. MR. BAKER: I -- I have proof that we -- we've been buying through Pinch-a-Penny and the account is in Bay Forest's name. It's not in my name. And also I brought proof that Bay Forest pays my wages for the Page 38 August 16, 2006 last year. I'm -- you know, I am an employee for them. And they paid for everything, my tests. They paid for everything, school. I would never have been able to get my county -- you know, this license on my own. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just how is the account at Pinch-a-Penny handled? MR. BAKER: They pay it. Would you like to see? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, I would. Would you give it to this lady right here. If we could mark that as exhibit, what is Exhibit 1 for this case; right? MR. BAKER: It's not a copy. I couldn't get the copy machine to work this morning, but it's -- it's what I have to take back. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We'll give it to you. We'll give it back to you. MR. BAKER: Okay. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. That's all right, isn't it, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. BLUM: What exactly are we being asked to do here? I'm a little confused. MS. KELLER: I am too. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Approve his license by waiving the credit -- credit issue. MR. BLUM: Is this the first time he's applying for a license? MR. BAKER: Yes, sir. MR. NEALE: The test that the board is to look at on this is whether the public would sustain economic loss resulting from the contractor's inability to pay his lawful contractual obligations. That's the real test to be looked at. The primary report to be looked at is, of course, that of the company as well as the contractor. So the company's been in business since 1981. Normally the contractor-- Page 39 August 16, 2006 MR. BLUM: Bay Forest? MR. NEALE: Yeah. MR. BLUM: I'm a little -- now I'm even more confused. You want a license in your own name to do business -- do business yourself or you just want to represent Bay Forest? MR. BAKER: I'm representing Bay Forest. MR. NEALE: He's going to be -- MR. BLUM: Okay. MR. NEALE: -- I guess the qualifier for Bay Forest. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Since she's marked that, could you bring that form up to me. MR. BLUM: So that's interesting. He's going to qualify Bay Forest with this license and then he's going to be their employee? MR. NEALE: That's as far as I can ascertain. MR. BLUM: But he's not going to go out and get other jobs with this license under a different name? MR. BAKER: No. MS. KELLER: Well, then-- MR. OSSORIO: He will be able to go ahead and conduct business outside the realm of the association. He'll be able to go to somebody's place of business and conduct business under Bay Forest, whatever he's doing business as. MR. NEALE: Bay Forest -- but Bay Forest, obviously, would have to permit him to do that. MR. BLUM: Is that something we need -- because that -- that sounds pretty scary to me that part of it. I mean, we're talking a corporation homeowners association basically, isn't it? MR. BAKER: My -- my -- the president of the association is here. MR. NEALE : Yeah. And -- and, I mean, for him to do business outside of the grounds -- grounds of the homeowners association, the homeowners association would have to be allowing him to do that. Page 40 August 16, 2006 So, I mean, it sounds to me, I'm -- you know, I'm not the one going to put any evidence forward. But basically they want to have a licensed pool contractor doing the pool maintenance at Bay Forest Homeowners. MR. BLUM: It's a great idea. The concept is terrific. Then I'm saying to myself if he goes out and does two other condos and is -- and he's working for Bay Forest. MR. NEALE: That's the only way he can do it is working-- MR. BLUM: Yeah. MR. NEALE: -- for Bay Forest. MS. KELLER: Well, except for he could set up another company and he's already qualified so he didn't-- MR. NEALE: But he'd have to come back here for a second entity. MR. BLUM: That would be my recommendation. MR. NEALE: Well, no matter what, ifhe tries to get a second entity, he has to come back here. MS. KELLER: So there would be restrictions in a sense. MR. NEALE: So... CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I'm sitting here looking at these documents for everyone's -- I mean, first of all, how many homeowners associations play it this legal right down the line? Mr. Ossorio, I mean, you know better than that. MR. OSSORIO: Actually, I don't know any. Technically the -- the standard of proof I know in the past that if an associate -- due to the fact that they have to -- the pool has to be cleaned every day by HR. If you're -- if you're -- if it's a public pool or some kind of a pool that is accessed by the community, it has to be cleaned every day and it has to be looked at. It has to have your own little license through HR. You've got to take an exam, not just a business and law exam, but you have to take a practical exam for the employee. And he can elaborate on that maybe. Page 41 August 16, 2006 But I would say if -- if you're an employee of the association and you're doing the association pool, you're not technically contracting yourself out. You're an employee of a homeowner and you're doing the work. But if the association wants to make sure they get a license. Great. I think that's a good thing. And I think that's something we should look into doing in the future. MR. BAKER: I already have my certification through the health department. I'm certified to clean the pools. And that's mainly why we're doing this because the pools weren't being cleaned every day. You know, the company's were coming two -- two or maybe three times a week. So we took them over. Plus we don't have all the trucks coming in there. We had eight different companies coming in. MR. GUITE: If he's an employee of the homeowners association and they pay him as an employee to clean their pools, do they need a license? MR. OSSORIO: You -- you touched on something I just want to -- Mr. Baker, maybe -- you're not doing the association pools. You're going to do all the homeowners' private pools? MR. BAKER: No. MR.OSSORIO: You said eight different companies. I mean, is it a common practice that your association hires eight different contractors to do the work? MR. BAKER: Well, there's eight associations within Bay Forest Homeowners. MR. OSSORIO: Then Bay Forest Homeowner is -- those are common area pools that are -- that are -- that are maintained by the association, not individual homeowners? MR. BAKER: Yes, sir. MR. OSSORIO: Okay. MR. NEALE: It's just as an opinion not to sway the board, but it's like putting a second set of suspenders on top of belt and suspenders. Page 42 August 16, 2006 MR. BLUM: Well, I love the concept. My only concern is for the homeowners association. He's going to go out as Mr. Baker working for Bay Forest and going to go to your house and clean your pool. And Bay Forest is liable whatever he does. Am I right in saying that? MR. NEALE: If he did that, but I have a feeling, you know, the billing would have to go through Bay Forest. MR. BLUM: So the bill -- Bay Forest Homeowners Association is going to set themselves up in business as a pool cleaning company? MR. NEALE: It doesn't sound like it. MR. BLUM: That's what I'm hearing. So I'm a little confused. MR. NEALE: No. All he -- let me say what my understanding . IS -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale -- MR. BAKER: We're trying to -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- sit down for just a minute. MR. BAKER: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I know this gentleman is just dying to come up here. MR. NEALE: Let the president of the association say it. MR. BLUM: I'll look at his nose. MR. NEALE: All they're going to do -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Come up to the podium. MR. NEALE: -- as far as I can tell, this is just to clean pools inside the association. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need for you to state your name and have you sworn in. MR. HAMPTON: Brian Hampton. I'm not-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need to have you sworn in. (The oath was administered.) MR. HAMPTON: I do. I manage Bay Forest Homeowners Association. I am not the president. I'm the general manager. I have Page 43 August 16, 2006 a state license, but I also have my county permit by the way. But we manage six -- there are six hundred and ninety-seven units within Bay Forest. Those 670 -- 697 units are represented by 17 different associations. Weare the master association. So that -- that will correct. Mr. Baker didn't quite understand the full operation of this. We took on the maintenance of the pools for several reasons. One was to keep costs down for our associations plus getting better service. The -- or the county, the state, I think, requires seven days of testing or checking the pools. We do that presently. Before we were not doing it and we were getting a lot of complaints. Pools were being shut down by the state because they're not being operated properly. So we have corrected that. Now, Neil has his certificate. The only reason we are after this contractor's license, I believe is what they call it, is to be able to purchase our chemicals at a discount. Otherwise, I don't need it to do what we're doing. But this -- getting this license, we get a discount from the venders. Otherwise, we don't get it. They -- we've tried every one of them in Lee County on. They will not give it to us until we can prove that we have a licensed -- contractor's license so and that's the only reason we're doing that. MR.OSSORIO: That makes sense, Mr. Dickson. Is technically the way I see it, if I had a pre-app meeting with Mr. Baker, I wouldn't even brought him to the agenda due to the fact that he wouldn't be contracting without a license. But if you do approve it, we're going to give him a certificate number and he's going to be doing business under Bay Forest Homeowners Association so... MR. HAMPTON: He will not be doing any outside guaranteed. MR. OSSORIO: No. And that's going to be -- MR. BLUM: He will not. He will not. He will not be. No, sir. MR.OSSORIO: That's going to be if -- if Mr. Baker had went out and did work on the side, that would be something that we would Page 44 August 16, 2006 deal with. But I don't think we need to approve his license. I think that we'd be setting some kind of a standard that we're going to give a certificate number to associations who don't need it. Something I don't think we should be even venturing in just because he wants to get a discount. And -- and some kind of, you know, wholesale pncIng. That's not what this is all about. This is about contracting. He is not contracting. That association's not contracting. They provide a service to their homeowners under the direction of their employee. MR. NEALE: The problem is ifhe's met the standards as a contractor, he still -- you can't deny him the license because it's for -- he's doing it for a reason other than wanting to become a contractor. I mean, he's passed all the requirements. I would have difficulty recommending to the board that they deny this license because it -- in my legal opinion, I don't see justification for denial. MR. BLUM: I wish Mr. Johnson was not out today. MR. OSSORIO: Yeah. But, Mr. Dickson, just to clarify that if you do approve it, Mr. Baker would be able to qualify the company. He'd be -- he will be -- he will be responsible to Bay Forest under the -- under our license -- under our charter. So be aware of it that if you work outside the scope of Bay Forest's ability to do work, we're going to bring you back in front of the licensing board. And we expect you to hold -- hold true to what you're going to say. With that notion, I think we should approve it. He does meet the criteria like Pat Neale said. I just don't like giving licenses out due to the fact that he just wants to get a discount and that's something that's his personal right. We shouldn't assist, maybe overstating it. So we will recommend that you approve it as long as he meets the requirements of the -- of the -- his -- his credit report. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. Yeah. And I agree with Mr. Neale. He did take the test and he does qualify. I don't see other associations doing this. So it's not a big issue I hope. Page 45 August 16, 2006 MR. BLUM: I wonder what Mr. Johnson's opinion would be. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We can't -- I'm sorry. But we have to deal with this today. MR. BLUM: This is something that arises. People like DiV osta, for example, hold various licenses for different trades and they do their own work for thousands of homes. It's kind of sort of like that. MR. OSSORIO: But DiV osta's different. Those are homeowners. And homeowners contract separately. This is just clearly for the association owned by the common area. I don't believe that DiV osta has a pool common area for their members. MR. BLUM: I'm talking like the guy -- a guy, a DiVosta employee or DiV osta management person would hold a plumbing license, would hold a roofing license and so forth, but they only do DiV osta's work under that license. MR. OSSORIO: Under a d/b/a. You're absolutely right, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That happens a great deal. MR. BLUM: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: A great deal of large companies. MR. NEALE: Any large -- I mean, if you look at who the qualifier is for any of the large companies, you certainly wouldn't look to that qualifier for financial responsibility on DiV osta or Lennar or someone like that. You -- you look to the -- to the corporation itself. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let's move on. Thank you. I appreciate your time. MR. NEALE: Well, you still need to dispose of it because -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I know. I'm getting ready to. I already spent more time on it than I think -- hopefully I've got all the questions answered. Anybody else have any questions or are you ready to make a motion? How do you feel? MR. BOYD: I move we approve it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Huh? Page 46 August 16, 2006 MR. BOYD: I move we approve it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MR. GUITE: I'll second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? MS. KELLER: I just -- I was just thinking of Mr. Baker if he had any liability as an employee for the association as the qualifier? If there were a problem with one of pools or something, he would be subject to liability? MR. NEALE: As the qualifier, he's still subject to discipline. MS. KELLER: Right. Okay. Because we usually make sure that people understand that when they become the qualifier. So I just wanted to point that out. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. I would -- I would only say to Mr. Neale, I'm getting names confused here, that if you leave their employment, you may want to come in and talk to the office. Because you will still be responsible for everything that goes on with those pools -- MR. BAKER: I understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- with that association. SPEAKER: I understand. Thank you. MR. BLUM: By the same token he can not qualify Bay Forest if he chooses not to. He can remove himself from that-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sure. MR. BLUM: -- responsibility any time he wants to. MR. OSSORIO: It's -- it's an informal process. All you do is just send a certified letter to the association, let them know that you're separating. The association has 60 days to get a new qualifier to go ahead so they can conduct business properly. And then Mr. Baker's license, his certificate number will go on inactive status or he'll go on dormant status until he reflects the new company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. I've got a motion. I've got a second. All those in favor. Page 47 August 16, 2006 MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got it. All right. You want to come get this? By the way, for the record, all the bills and everything is made out to Bay Forest Homeowners Association so the credit was not an Issue. (Exhibit was retained by the witness, Mr. Baker.) MR. BAKER: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir. MR. BAKER: You-all have a good day. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And, Mr. Spiska. I guess it has to be you. If you'd come to this podium here, sir. Before you state your name you might spell it also. MR. SPISKA: Peter John Spiska, S-p-i-s-k-a. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I need to have you sworn in, sir. (The oath was administered.) MR. SPISKA: I do. MR.OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, before we continue, this was an add-on and I didn't get to review the packet in full, but it appears it does have some identification numbers. So at the end of the proceedings, can I have those back so I can dispose of them properly? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, seeing how I don't know what Artist on Stone is, I need you to tell me what kind of company this is Page 48 August 16, 2006 and what you're doing. Is this a second -- second qualification? MR. NEALE: Second. MR. SPISKA: Yes, it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right, sir. MR. SPISKA: Artist on Stone is a corporation. And they are engaged in installation. I mean, fabrication of the countertops. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Of the what? MR. SPISKA: Countertops, kitchen. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Granite type? MR. SPISKA: Granite countertops. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. SPISKA: And some man-made stone as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And what company do you now qualify? MR. SPISKA: For Marble Granite Direct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You have ownership in both companies? MR. SPISKA: Yes, I do. MS. KELLER: The first one. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And then why are you -- why do you need to qualify this second company? Why the need of the second company? MR. SPISKA: Well, as the -- as a owner -- co-owner of the company, I certainly want to expand the option to do some more type of work which does require a qualifying agent. MR. GUITE: Who-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead. MR. GUITE: Who qualifies Artist on Stone right now? MR. SPISKA: They have their own license for fabrication apparently available. And they have used some -- I think some associate for somebody out of work where they have no -- you know, qualifier in house. And as I became a co-owner of the company, I Page 49 August 16, 2006 decided to instead of subbing those things out, you know, just to simply become a qualifying agent for my second entity as well. And, you know, cover that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So I'm confused. Are you qualifying the other company as well? MR. SPISKA: Yes. I'm -- I'm qualified for the Marble Granite Direct. And here -- here today I'm requesting the applicant -- the application to qualify the second entity where I am also owner or co-owner of that entity which is the Artist on Stone. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So does Tony Cardenas have a license? MR. SPISKA: He does -- does have a license to fabricate. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do we have a credit report on Tony Cardenas? MR. NEALE: You really don't need one. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, you know, it kind of -- and I've heard that before, Pat. But then I attended a couple of state meetings. And the state very much wants to look at the other owners especially if they're the principal owner like this case here and 90 percent versus 10 percent. Because what they look at is someone who has 90 percent control and can't qualify the company because of terrible finances and they go out and find somebody. MR. NEALE: The issue with the -- the difference I would say, and I'd be happy to talk to the state about it, but the difference I would see is the state has the concept of financially responsible party. The financially responsible person in their licensure where someone can set forth who is not the contractor and be financially responsible for the -- for the contracting entity, whereas, Collier County does not have that in its ordinances. The responsible parties are only really the contractor and the corporation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Isn't that a fallacy in our ordinance? MR. NEALE: The board and the Board of County Page 50 August 16, 2006 Commissioners both looked at it the last time the ordinance was reviewed and decided not to go with the financially responsible party as a concept in our ordinance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because I saw a couple of cases, one of which was a pool contractor, and I won't state the individuals but they've been in the news lately, who had bankruptcy and went out and found a license holder and gave him 10 percent ownership. Ran the company. And ran it into the ground. And ended up with lots of people paying $30,000 for a hole in their backyard, but yet they were legal again. And that's what the state looks at. And what I'm worried about for Collier County is that we get people in here that have had licenses revoked. And I'm not referring to you. Don't get me wrong. This is totally off. Licenses revoked and bankruptcies and everything else and they find some poor soul that's going to qualify them. And they're right back in the business of being crooks again. MR. NEALE: And the -- the issue is our ordinance only requires or requests the qualifying agent in the organization. Which does not require a request for those reports and doesn't have those as part of the requirements within the ordinance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So I need to go to a meeting of the Board of Commissioners, don't I? MR. NEALE: Well, it's certainly something that would be worth CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you agree, Mr. Ossorio? MR. OSSORIO: That's one of the things Mr. Neale and I talked about a couple weeks ago. And we're going to be looking at a lot of different things in the next couple of years. We're going to be looking at -- the penalties have changed dramatically with unlicensed activity in the state of Florida. They've gone up tremendous. And we're going to be looking at that aspect as well. But the way -- amended the ordinance hopefully today and make sure we can start up on it again. Page 51 August 16, 2006 But I just didn't want to put too much on the plate to the fact if we couldn't come to kind of solution today about the ordinance, then we wouldn't be able to get to the board -- the BCC September 12th. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Gotcha. MR. OSSORIO: So we're cutting it short. And I think this is -- we need to discuss it in length. I need to talk to Lee County and see how they do business. I want to talk to Brevard County and see how they do business. And see if something -- that's something we want to look into. We're going to open up something -- Pandora's box, I want to make sure we're prepared for it since we're -- right now we only go after the qualifier. But you want us to go ahead and bring d/b/a's to the board as well, officers of the corporation. We need to take a look at that and see where we're going with it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Major investors. MR.OSSORIO: Yeah. MR. NEALE: And that would -- I would say that the only way because, obviously, one of the reasons that a corporation is put forth is to limit the liability of the investors. There would be very little reason to be in a corporation otherwise. So the only way to get to that investor would be through a financial responsible party concept such as the state has. MS. KELLER: Maybe on -- well, on this application you say that you will not have check writing authority for the business; is that right? MR. SPISKA: I'm not saying I might will. I will be saying I don't at the moment. I became an officer of the company recently. The stock ownership is one subj ect which happened a few months ago. And the second thing that happened is that I recently become officer of the company as the vice president of the company. And as it happened and because this application is pending, the -- some of the issues inside the corporation will be, obviously, amended which -- which most likely will include the check writing ability. Page 52 August 16, 2006 MR. HORN: Mr. Chair, question. I see in here some brief credit history on both the companies involved, but I don't see a credit report on Mr. Spiska. Should we be seeing that or is that not relevant here? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's relevant. MS. KELLER: That's relevant. MR. HORN: In my packet, at least, I can't find a credit report on the individual. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We could make the motion based upon Mr. Ossorio reviewing that. Is that not true? And if it's not in order, he kicks it back here again. MR. SPISKA: Could I -- on the credit report, the -- my initial obligation for this entity a while back required my personal credit report which was submitted. On this one it required only the both corporation report as we understood the application, so we have not obviously provided you personally with that application. MR. NEALE: Well, Artist on Stone has been in business longer than one year. So technically they don't need to submit a report. MR. HORN: Gotcha. That was my question. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Please. Thank you for your patience while we digress on to something else. MR. SPISKA: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have any questions or a motion? MR. BLUM: I'll make the motion we approve Mr. Spiska's application for a second entity. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those -- or do I hear a second? MR. BOYD: Second, Boyd. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? Page 53 August 16, 2006 MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got it. You heard my announcement, though, about wait till tomorrow. MR. SPISKA: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wish you well, sir. MR. BLUM: Do a recess, Mr. Chairman, take a break before we get to this? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Let's -- okay. What, five minutes or you need ten? Ten over here. Recess until 10:40. (Short recess was taken.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to call back to order the Collier County Contractors' License Board. The only thing we have left is review of the proposed ordinance which we started on last month and all of us were going to take home and read and see if we can go through this and approve. MR. NEALE: I have a 23-page test for everyone just to make sure you read it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm ready. I read it. MR. NEALE: Just kidding. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I take that back. I read the underlines and the scratch outs. So if we can going through this, we have to approve this today, guys, so that the county commissioners can vote on it. Has everyone had a chance to look at it? You with me? (No response.) Page 54 August 16, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does anyone have any specific pages they want to go to to discuss or change or feel free. Open forum. MS. KELLER: How far did we get last time? MR. BLUM: We brought up some specific instances. The one that I remember had to do with the guys the -- grandfathered in guys that were now going to have to take tests and do some further training. And that was a bit of a bone of contention with our chairman. I'd kind of like to revisit that because I have some fairly strong views about that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you're going to notice up until that is in every category we have struck three-hour or two-hour tests and called them an approved test. And we have struck out two-hour business and law. And because if -- because it doesn't matter what the time is, just an approved test and the business law. Then we get over to -- that issue shows up in two places. The first place is on page 19 which is the landscaping contractor. What we had talked about is all new applicants. That we would accept paragraph A. All new applicants would have to take an appropriate test. Which right now they don't have to take any test. So basically if you can pass a business and law test, you can be a landscape contractor. Which, I mean, I think everyone should have to take a test in their trade. How else can you prove that they know what -- have a clue as to what's going on. MR. NEALE: In the -- in the past I -- I don't believe, and Mr. Ossorio can correct me, I don't believe a test available for tree trimming. I think that was the real issue. And there's just recently become one. Am I correct on that, Michael? MR.OSSORIO: Yeah. There was no practical exam for being a tree contractor or a landscaper -- landscaping contractor. One of the tools we actually use -- taking the exam is only a part of many things that you -- that we require for taking -- to get the certificate of competency card. One would be taking the exam. Two would be Page 55 August 16, 2006 showing -- showing experience. If you don't -- if you don't have the experience and affidavits of working under a tree contractor for, what is it, 24 months, then you just won't get a license. We deny. Just because you take the exam, doesn't mean automatically you're going to get the license. So there is some requirements, but -- but not testing requirements for -- but, hopefully, we'll get something in writing today and we'll have something, more ammunition for the new landscapers and tree contractors. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I never cared for, you know, verification of experience. Because you guys know darn good well you can get all the letters you want from a bunch of phantom people that you can find someone to notarize. So those letters don't mean squat to me. My problem was, and you weren't here, I had a problem with B, C, D and E. MR. BLUM: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because I was not going to take an action that would put someone -- and Mr. Turner is a prime example who was here today -- that's going to put someone out of business who's lived in this county all of his life and been a landscape contractor. And now out of the clear blue, we -- we tell him he's got to go take a test and take continuing education. I'm not saying I have a problem with revisiting this during the year; but to jump on this right now, I have a problem with. Plus I don't even know what a certified arborist is. MR. NEALE: Well, one of the other issues, Mr. Dickson, too is -- and we discussed this among ourselves, among the county attorney and myself, county staff and also with the board, is if you put in a continuing education requirement on this category of license only, you're then creating essentially a category within a category. And that, you know, if a tree trimmer has to get a license and then has to get continuing education, who's to say that that's a -- more dangerous to public, health, safety and welfare trade than is being a aluminum Page 56 August 16, 2006 contractor, for example. Which is more unsafe, a hack-racked tree or a badly installed screen enclosure? So, you know, that's the real question is if you impose a continuing education requirement on one, in all likelihood there would be an outcry to impose it on others. Or those upon whom it was imposed, may complain in a rather vigorous fashion and probably have a good reason for doing so. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Plus I doubt seriously the county wants to go down that road. Because then they become responsible for a whole lot of issues. MR.OSSORIO: I personally don't want to see it, but I'm in the customer service business. So whatever the board wants to do is -- is what we'll do. You know, we're in the business of doing -- finding the exams and doing what we need to do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you running for office? MR. OSSORIO: No. I'm making sure I play all bases. Remember, I have to go back to the building. MR. BLUM: The -- the young lady that gave some testimony last month who is -- who is actively involved out there looking at the trees and the way they're trimmed and the storm-related problems, to me she made an excellent case for this -- this ongoing -- well, the truth of the matter is, lots and lots of landscapers don't do trees. They just don't do them. But the ones who do that want to be arborist, is it, I think there's a real good case that they stay -- they stay competent. I mean, if you hold a state license, this is a moot point. Any state license you got to have CEU credits all the time anyway. I mean, it's just an ongoing thing. And I personally welcome that because there's stuff I learn every time. It's a pain in the butt. It costs money. But you do learn something. I think it's a good thing. MR.OSSORIO: I believe that the state takes precedence over that. And they decided that they didn't want to give to local authorities to administer CEU credits. I think the state holds that to themselves. Which is fine. There is something that -- maybe we can Page 57 August 16, 2006 come up with something creative in a couple of years. And next year -- my door's always open to the code enforcement. If they want to come in and discuss something and go over it, I have no problem with that. But for right now for today's date, I don't think we need to go ahead and do the CEU credits or even a certified arborist. I think the exam is good. I think we worked on that for many months with code enforcement. We had workshops on the exam. And I think that we should stick to what we know, to approve the exam as it's written to gain it's independence so that we go on with the September 12th BCC meeting. MR. BLUM: So you -- you -- you do not want to approve this A, B, C and D? MR. OSSORIO: No, I do not. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wait. You don't want to approve B, C, D and E? MR. OSSORIO: No, B, C, D and E. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: B, C, D and E. You agree with A; is that correct? MR. OSSORIO: I agree with just Section A. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And if you turn over to page 23, you have the same identical issue in a category of tree removal and trimming contractor which is totally different than landscaping contractoring. MR. BLUM: Same would apply for that, Mr. Ossorio. MR. OSSORIO: Exactly the same. MR. BLUM: Well, I certainly don't want to go against our -- our staff. I just think I would like to feel comfortable that at some point in time it will be revisited. Maybe when we have more time to address it fully would be appropriate. MR. NEALE: I would -- I would suggest to the board that if continuing education is going to be visited as -- as a topic under the local ordinance, that the board should review it as a topic for all trades Page 58 August 16, 2006 as opposed to just the individual trade. MR. BLUM: Yeah. MR. NEALE: That would give Mr. Zachary and I the ability to research whether the local board even has the power to impose CEU requirements which I'm not since you're permitted under 489. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I just don't know how we do that if the state doesn't have a CEU requirement for that trade. It's not like electricians that are -- or, say, a roofing contractor that has only a county license. State of Florida requires him to get his continuing education to register with the state, just like state certified has to get it. So you guys go to these things. You know what I'm talking about. How does the county get into this business? That's what's horrifying to me. How are we going to come up with the classes, the instructors, the whole nine yards and then the bookkeeping of it. I just don't think we want to go there. But we can revisit it. But it's a whole bureaucracy within itself. MR. BLUM: I -- I would like to hear as well-- we keep saying this, but we'd like to hear from some folks from the trade. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Exactly. MR. BLUM: Some grandfathered folks, some new folks, something like that young lady that was here last month. I really would like to get a bunch of input. I mean, you and I have been at this for a lot, a lot of years. So we've got one -- I was just going into business six months ago, I might think differently also. You know, we don't -- we don't have all the information and I don't think we've heard from representative people out there doing work either. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, that was pretty much the whole thought is that we just didn't want to do it right now because we didn't have time to go into it. MR. BLUM: Yeah. MS. KELLER: It's very just-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's very -- and Mr. Neale brought up Page 59 August 16, 2006 a very good example. If you do it for one, you got to do it for all. MS. KELLER: Right. MR. BLUM: That's fine. MR. GUITE: Which you probably should. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Probably should, yeah. MR. GUITE: I've been on a lot of jobs. There's a lot -- there's a lot of new material coming out all the time. And if you don't keep up on it, it can get away from you and using the wrong material for the wrong -- to set the wrong tile or the wrong membrane to press the cracks and run into problems. Continuing education would be beneficial to everybody. MR. BLUM: No question. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I'm going to make a motion that on the new proposed ordinance that on page 19 and page 23 -- page 19 under the category of landscaping contractors, that subcategories B as in "boy," C as in "Charlie," D as in "David," E in "Edward" -- as in "Edward," be stricken from the code but to leave in place A as in "alpha," the new wording that all new applicants applying for landscaping license are required to take a practical exam pertaining to pruning and safety. And then on page 23 under tree removal and trimming contractor, that the identical motion I just stated for landscaping also pertain to the tree removal and trimming contractor: B, C, D and E be stricken. Is there a second? MR. NEALE: Mr. Zachary brings up a good point. A practical exam typically infers a hands-on kind of exam. What I would say is use the same language -- MR. ZACHARY: Use -- use the approved exam instead of practical exam. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh. MR. NEALE: The new applicant shall obtain a passing grade on Page 60 August 16, 2006 an approved test and a two-hour business and law test. Just clean the language up so that it reads -- reads the same as the rest of the ordinance in both. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I'll amend -- and I agree. I'll amend the motion. Business and law is stated right above that. So A will be changed to read, All new applicants applying for tree service license are required to take an approved exam pertaining to pruning and safety. Is that adequate? MR. ZACHARY: Yeah. Approved exam and obtain a passing grade. I'll clean up the language. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And a passing grade. That would be nice. MR. GUITE: I agree. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You know, you know someone's going to come in and say, I took the test. Didn't say I had to pass it. And then the same wording would apply -- MR. ZACHARY: With a score of 30. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The same wording would apply-- MR. ZACHARY: On page 23. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- page 23 as well, yeah. Okay. We got a motion. We have no second. MR. BOYD: Second, Boyd. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? (N 0 response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? Page 61 August 16, 2006 (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. That change is done. Then I had one other issue, Mr. Neale, I wanted to bring up on page 24, 1.6.8. We don't say anything in there about -- we say business organization, quote, or business organization license. MR. NEALE: Where are we at again? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Page 24. MR. NEALE: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 1.6.8. MR. NEALE: All right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The only thing I'm leaning to here, I know what you mean by business organization here. But the thing that's getting ready to happen with the state -- it happened this year already -- is you can't renew your licenses whether they be county registrations or state registrations now until you have your continuing education because that's now in the computer. All the other state certified found that out this year. What they're going to change next is you won't be able to renew your licenses if you don't have a business organization license which renews on opposite years. Like, I have one for Dickson, Incorporated. It doesn't allow me to do anything, but it licenses the business. And we've brought up charges and the state is bringing up charges where the guy's personal license is absolutely perfect but, like, Bay Forest Homeowners Association, Inc., also has to have a Florida Business Organization License. MR. NEALE: Well, they also have to file their Annual Uniform Business Report. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR. NEALE: And they have to be an active corporation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And they have to get that business license. And it's not the annual filing of the corporation. It's a separate license. Page 62 August 16, 2006 MR. OSSORIO: It's a QB License. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR.OSSORIO: Qualified Business License. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Qualified Business License. And the thing we don't do in this county and you then mentioned this at these continuing education meeting, and all these guys raise their hand, I've been in business 30 years. I've never had one. Well, what's happening in lawsuits right off the bat, every attorney's keyed into this now. If you don't have the business qualifying license, they will immediately prove that you're an unlicensed contractor even though you have the trade license. And all of a sudden you don't have any lien rights. So the lien that you have is now null and void. And we as a county don't recognize this business qualifying license. You follow where I'm going? I mean, is there -- and now they're -- when you come back to renew your licenses next time with the State of Florida, if you don't have a business qualifying license, you will not be able to renew your license because it will immediately stop it. MS. KELLER: And the business qualifying license is just, like, $40 that you pay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Fifty-nine -- fifty-nine dollars. MS. KELLER: Yeah. Depending on-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You pay every other year on the off year that your license renews. MR. BLUM: Just a way to get money. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's all it is, yeah. But it's -- it's been law now for 12 years. MR. NEALE: Certificate of authority they call it, I guess. MR. OSSORIO: We take the QB license as a certificate for a state-registered or state-certified contractors. But the state doesn't really recognize two-thirds of our license holders are specialty due too Page 63 August 16, 2006 the fact that it's not really under 49. It's considered construction. So they do not need to register with the state. If you're a tile contractor, if you're a drywall company, there's no QB license for that. It just says you do -- you do business as. If you want to get yourself incorporated, you have to get yourself incorporated due to the fact that you have to get a workers' comp exemption. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you have -- if you have to register with the state or you have -- MR.OSSORIO: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- the state license, you have to have this license. MR. OSSORIO: You're absolutely right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you're -- by state law, you're supposed to carry it. Mine's in here, qualified business organization. And then over here is my certified contractor license. They're both two different licenses. MR.OSSORIO: But the state does that when you register or certify. So why do we -- I mean, if the state makes us -- makes you do it, why -- why do you want the county -- we can't renew your license -- if you're a state contractor and you want to conduct business down here, we take your QB license, your qualified business license and your -- your other license, your state registration and we -- and you apply for it with -- with our office. If you're registered or certified, it doesn't make a difference. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, it's another check. And the prime example was here with the pool guy. MR. OSSORIO: The pool is not -- that particular trade is not considered construction. You wouldn't be able to register with Tallahassee with that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. But take one that is. MR. OSSORIO: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All of a sudden he's no longer with Page 64 August 16, 2006 that entity and we don't require a business qualification license so... MR. OSSORIO: The state does. The registration does. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So let the state keep doing it. MR. OSSORIO: Yeah. I mean, just because you're a county license holder, doesn't mean you don't -- you don't have to have a QB license. You do. If you're registered with Tallahassee, you do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I'm seeing these guys losing lien rights left and right, folks, because you're not a licensed contractor. And state statute says right up above right off the bat, if you are not properly licensed, you have no lien rights in the state of Florida. MR. GUITE: What about if you're licensed in the county like me, like a specialty license. If there is no tile license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If there is no state license, then you don't have to have one or there's no registration with the state. MR. OSSORIO: I believe the state's working on that with the registered -- registered contractors. I don't think we need to change anything in this particular section. I don't want to disagree with you. I just don't want to open something that we needn't even look at. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't go there. MR. OSSORIO: It's something that maybe we're going to look at in the next couple years with business and as developers. And maybe bring developers to a licensing board for issues relating to construction. Maybe we'll be doing that in the future. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And we know who we're talking about. MR.OSSORIO: We're talking in general, but we might be doing that. And I think Pat Neale and I did discuss that about two weeks ago. And we're going to be discussing that again. But the state -- I'd let the state handle the QB license, qualified business license. Then if they have to register every -- every other year, every two years, I don't think we need to do that. Page 65 August 16, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I have another question on page 33. MR. NEALE: Which section number? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Section 2.11.2. This directly -- Mike -- or Michael Ossorio's power. So if we have another hurricane, the licensing board's not going to meet. It's up to your discretion that you're going to approve specialty licenses? MR. NEALE: No. 2.11.2 follows 2.11 which says that the board must -- the Contractor Licensing Board must first declare an emergency, contracting trade shortage of designated categories and that declaration may be up to six months. And then the Contractor Licensing Board must authorize the contractor licensing to do what's set out in 2.11.2. So the board has to authorize the contractor -- the contractor licensing supervisor to do that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So when we did this last year after Wilma, this part in here, and issue temporary licenses for an period of time not to exceed emergency, that's being added and wasn't in there; right? MR. NEALE: No. That's the only part that's added is the issue licenses. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you're just cleaning it up? MR. NEALE: Cleaned it up because the licenses as issued last year were for -- there was no defined period of time. I think it was six months or something like that. And it was requested that this be changed to add for the period of the declaration of emergency. So when the emergency gets over, then the licenses essentially go away. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anybody else have any questions on that? MR. BLUM: That's done by the governor or the legislators? Who declares the emergency? MR. ZACHARY: What we're talking about, I think, is the declaration by this board that there was a shortage of categories of Page 66 August 16, 2006 contractors that can take care of the hurricane damage. MR. BLUM: So we say we think there's an emergency. MR. NEALE: No. There's two phases. First there has to be a state of emergency declared pursuant to Florida statute by the Board of County Commissioners. MR. BLUM: Okay. MR. NEALE: Okay. And that's done subsequent to delegated authority from the governor. So the Board of County Commissioners declares a state of emergency. Then this board would subsequently meet to declare an emergency shortage of a particular group of trades, certain contractors as was done after Wilma. And then the contractor licensing supervisor can issue emergency licenses to those trades for that period of time. So it's really a multi-step process. The governor starts it. Then the Board of County Commissioners authorizes. Then this board authorizes. MR. BLUM: And then who decides when to say stop? It could be a week, a month, a year. MR. NEALE: The Board of County Commissioners decides the length of the state of emergency. MR. BLUM: That actually -- because we didn't do that before. The county commissioners didn't say, Okay, it's over. It just -- it just kind of went away if I remember right. So there has to be a specific end to the emergency. MR. OSSORIO: It says six months on the -- MR. NEALE: Maximum is six months. MR. BLUM: Max is six months? MR. NEALE: Right. And the state of emergency is the state of emergency as declared by the Board of County Commissioners. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And Governor Bush extended that twice. MR. NEALE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the current extension is either Page 67 August 16, 2006 running out this month or -- MR.OSSORIO: I thought it was Friday --last Friday. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Last Friday. Okay. MR. ZACHARY: Let me just clarify this. After the commissioners, this board can declare a state of emergency shortage of contractors for a period not to exceed six months. And that means that Mr. Ossorio, his department, can issue the temporary licenses. But at some point, this board can determine there is not a shortage and end that state of emergency is what we're talking about. It's your job. It's not whether the county commissioners does it. It's you-all. MR. NEALE: Yeah. I misstated before. It was -- it is the length of period of time that the declaration of emergency is made by this board. MR. BLUM: See, what I was -- MR. NEALE: That's a maximum six months. MR. BLUM: Where I was headed was I believe there should be a cutoff. It should be pretty simple. Maybe statewide there's still a need in other areas, but we don't want these extra people in here because we think we've handled our problems already so... MR. ZACHARY: You have the power as a board to do that. MR. BLUM: It's something that we need to be aware of and do something about it. MR. NEALE: And this -- this board declares the period, the state of emergency. And it cannot declare a state of emergency any longer than six months. And the temporary licenses can only be valid for that period of declaration of emergency. Now, what the board could do -- this board could do, I believe Mr. Zachary may want to chime in, this board could then subsequently meet after three months. Say they declare a period for six months. The board can meet after three months and say the period of emergency contracting shortage no longer exists and then issue a declaration terminating the period of emergency. Page 68 August 16, 2006 MR. ZACHARY: I -- I agree with that. MR. BLUM: I like that a lot. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: When we met before right after Wilma, we did it for six months. And we were very specific that it was for six months, any permits pulled in that six-month period. So if you had a contractor who had just pulled a permit or was in the process of finishing a job, he didn't have to stop. He could complete his work. But we did not follow Governor Bush's recommendation. We narrowed that down. And we said contractors licensed in the state of Florida with qualifications that met Collier County guidelines and insurance. So we allowed no out -- unlicensed contractors out of state to come in here. MR. NEALE: And that -- that is specific here in this ordinance now that the selection of contractors or subcontractors from other jurisdictions whose licensing requirements are substantially comparable to those licensed in Collier County, that language is in there that the board just can't say anybody who owns a chain saw can do tree trimming or has to be substantially similarly licensed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which is what happened in Escambia County after 2004 when Ivan went through. They had 6,000 unlicensed out-of-state contractors. Because, as much as I love him, Governor Bush approved it, but we narrowed that focus way down. MR. OSSORIO: It's just kind of ironic that the very next day after the hurricane left, we had probably 20 contractors knocking on our front door. So they know when the storm was going to hit. They're flying down here. They're -- they're en route and that was a big problem. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I remember they sat in the meeting. MR.OSSORIO: Yeah. MR. HORN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One other question on page 37. Sorry Page 69 August 16, 2006 to dominate. I'll give everyone else their turn, but I told you I was going to read this. 4.1.8.2, why did -- I've -- I've got a pretty good understanding of why we added this, but it was because -- because of some issues and a disagreement with the commissioners in code enforcement. Is that it? MR. OSSORIO: Maybe Robert Zachary could answer what Mr. __ commissioner of the BCC wanted to do. Maybe the language on the ordinance was ambiguous. I'm not sure, but maybe he can elaborate on it. MR. ZACHARY: The board gave us direction to add this language because people were having to come in to to obtain a variance or other -- some other administrative relief from the board because of mistakes made by contractors. So they wanted this language in there. I think it may have been -- we may have been able to deal with the old language. This sets up a separate section. If there's financial harm to -- to someone that has to come in because of the mistakes made by a contractor, we wanted to have a remedy in the contractor licensing ordinance. So that's why that's in here. MR. BLUM: I.e., that recent deal in Port -- Royal Harbor, is it, that the house is 15 feet too close and who's responsible. And the BCC really doesn't want to have to rule on variances if they can help it. MR.OSSORIO: Well, that's going to be the city council. MR. BLUM: That was city. Excuse me. You're right. MR. OSSORIO: And I know that Paul Bolemback and the City -- City of Naples is working with the contractor. And it has to be a willful code -- that contractor is a state certified contractor. It has to be willful code violations. We were looking into it and see if it's willful and we don't think it is. He submitted the plans properly. It shows it where it's supposed to be. The architect really made the mistake. And that's something the -- Tallahassee is going to look at it Page 70 August 16, 2006 because he's certified by -- MR. BLUM: Actually, he's not. MR. OSSORIO: Well, his company is. He's not, but there is a license holder for that particular architectural firm. So, you know, that's going to pan out. I don't know what the story is and -- but we'll look into that matter with Paul Bolemback with the City of Naples. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I just remember some of those cases where homeowners that made the changes and the homeowners were blamed. But blaming the contractor, the contractor was no longer in business and not around. MR. NEALE: And that -- the issue is -- on this one is going to be the tracking of the contractor. And we still, should this ever come up, do some significant research on statute of limitations issues. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That ends my questions. Anybody-- who else has questions? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No more? No more issues? MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Chairman, I think I was looking at that language that we changed on page 1 7 and 19. And just -- just to put it completely to bed. I think I'll put in some language to make sure there's no confusion and it's not an either-or thing for new applicants for that license. They'll have to take the business law like everybody additionally with -- MR. NEALE: Tree trimming. MR. ZACHARY: -- tree trimming. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you'll just rewrite that? MR. ZACHARY: I'll just -- I'll just put some language in there to make it clear it's not an either-or. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: On 19 and 23? MR. ZACHARY: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. They're going to vote on this when? Page 71 August 16, 2006 MR. NEALE: September 12th. MR. ZACHARY: September 12th. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do we need to make an approval or endorsement or what? MR. NEALE: What I would recommend is the board recommend to the Board of County Commissioners the adoption of this ordinance as reviewed by the Contractor Licensing Board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And what do we call this number, 2006 what? MR. ZACHARY: Well, it won't have an actual number until it comes -- you give it a number when it gets on the agenda and it's passed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. ZACHARY: But we don't know what the number is yet. It's sequential. It comes after whatever ordinance passed just before this one. So as far as the title, I'll add that in order to wait and finalize that and see what language we put in there. So we really don't need a number yet, but I think -- and it will be -- it won't be a completely new ordinance. It'll be an amendment to 90-105. MR. NEALE: 90-105. MR. ZACHARY: 90-105. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So the -- the motion would be to approve the -- MR. ZACHARY: To approve. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- ordinance amending Collier County Ordinance No. 90-105 for the year 2006? MR. NEALE: And recommend approval by the Board of County Commissioners of the ordinance as reviewed by the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And recommend approval by the Board of County Commissioners as approved and amended? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. Page 72 August 16, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: By the Board of Collier County Contractor Licensing Board? MR. NEALE: By the Contractor Licensing Board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Done. I've made the motion. MR. BLUM: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion. (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Done. Any other new business or reports? (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The next meeting is what day? MR. GUITE: Twentieth of September. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: September 20th, anybody know you're not going to be here? This one got a little tight today. (No response.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And we still don't have a replacement, so we are down to eight. I guess they're going to advertise. And that vacancy is a seat for consumer? MR. OSSORIO: Consumer it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So if there's any consumers watching who have never had anything to do with construction, which is a requirement, never to have been in the construction or related construction fields that would like to serve on this board, that we do have a vacancy presently on this board that has to be filled. And you would contact Sue Filson at Collier County Government Center; Page 73 August 16, 2006 correct? MR. ZACHARY: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sue's been here forever. MR. BLUM: Yeah. She keeps getting different jobs. Keeps moving around. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody have a motion to adjourn? MR. BLUM: So moved, Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second, Dickson. Done. ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11:16 a.m. CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING, INC., BY CAROLYN J. FORD, Page 74 August 16, 2006 correct? MR. ZACHARY: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sue's been here forever. MR. BLUM: Yeah. She keeps getting different jobs. Keeps moving around. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody have a motion to adjourn? MR. BLUM: So moved, Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second, Dickson. Done. ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11: 16 a.m. CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD CHAIRMAN LES DICKSON TRANSCRIPT PREPARED ON BEHALF OF GREGORY COURT REPORTING, INC., BY CAROLYN J. FORD Page 74