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CLB Minutes 10/16/2019October 16, 2019 MINUTES OF THE COLLIER COT]NTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD October 16,2019 Naples, Ftorida LET IT BE REMEIVIBERED that the Collier County Contractors' Licensing Board, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 AM in REGULAR,SESSION in Administrative Building *p,r'; 3rd Floor, Collier County Govemment Complex, Naples, Florida, with the following Members present: Chairmanl Vice Chair: Kyle E. Lantz Matthew Nolton Members:Terry Jerulle Richard E. Joslin Patrick G. White Excused'.Michael E. Boyd Robert P. Meister ALSO PRESENT: Everildo Ybaceta - Supervisor, Contractors' Licensing Office Lilla Davis - Administrative Supervisor, Contractors' Licensing Office Kevin Noell, Esq. - Assistant Collier County Attorney Jed Schneck, Esq. - Attorney for the Contractors' Licensing Board Michael P. Bogert - Collier County Contractor Licensing Compliance Officer 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 401 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) Oclober 16, 2019 Any person who decides to appeol a decision of this Board will need a record of the proceedings and may need lo ensure that a verbatim record of said proceedings is made, which record includes lhe testimony and evidence upon which any Appeal is lo be made. l. RoLLCALL: Chairman Kyle E. Lantz opened the meeting at 9:04 AM and read the procedures to be followed to appeal a decision ofthe Board. Roll Call was taken; a quorum was established; five (5) voting members were present. 2. AGENDA- ADDITIONS,CHANGES. oR DELETI0NS: (None) 3. APPROVAL oF AGENDA: Richard Joslin moved to approve the Agenda as presented. Vice Chairman Malthew Nolton offered a Second in support of the motion. Carried unanimously, S - 0. 4. APPROVAL oF MINUTES: SEPTEMBER 18 ,2019 Terry Jerulle moved to approve the Minules of the September 18, 2019 Meeting as submitted. Richard Joslin otfered a Second in support of the motion. Carried unanimously, 5 - 0. 5. PUBLIC Colrttoxr: (None) 6. DrscussroN: A. Current Owner/Builder Affidavit and Flotida Slotutes (Chapter 4E9) Section 489,103 - Exemptions for Owner/Builder Everildo Ybaceta, Supervisor - Contractors' Licensing Office: "As a general policy in Florida, construction work is to be done by an appropriately licensed Contractor unless exempted from the licensing requirement under F/orlda Slotules, (Chapter 489) Section 489.103. Examples of exemptions: when minor and/or inconsequential work, and small repairs for which the aggregate contract for labor, materials, and other items is less than one thousand dottars ($1,000). Another example: when a homeowner elects to serve as his own contractor, he/she is exempted from the licensure requirement. An owner of a property may act as his/her own contractor only for building or improving a farm outbuilding, or a one-family or 2 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 402 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16,2019 two-family residence. The owner/builder may improve a commercial building, but the cost cannot exceed seventy-five thousand dollars ($75,000). The owner/builder is required to own and occupy the entire structure. Example: Ifhe/she rents three of four suites in a commercial building, the exemption does not apply. Chairman Lantz'. lf I own a house in Collier County but only occupy it on a part- time basis, is that considered to be "occupied" by the owner,6uilder? Everildo Ybaceta: If it's for the use - it must be for the personal use-itspecifies that - it's for the use and occupancy ofthe owner/builder. Chairman Lantz'. I can occupy it on a part-time basis and still qualify for the exemption? Everildo Ybaceta: As long as you don't rent it out, yes ... or let somebody else use it. Chairman Lantz: So ... my homestead could be down the street and I can own this but as long as I don't rent it out, I could still ... Everildo Ybaceta: That Section is a little bit ambiguous - I want to point that out ... it's open to interpretation. As a whole, Collier County does look at -- if you are homesteaded, then you are living in the property - you are using that property. If you own another piece ofproperty somewhere in Collier County, most likely you are using it as a rental for income. Chairman Lantz: So, it might be considered as owner/builder eligible, or it definitely would not be considered eligible? Everildo Ybaceta: It might be considered eligible for an owner/builder exemption, but you must specify how you are using that property. It can't be for purposes other than your own personal use. Patrick White: A condo is considered as a commercial building? Correct? Everildo Ybaceta: Yes. Patrick White: And in a condo building, you do not occupy all the units - the notion of what we were just discussing - they are separate properties because you do not occupy the entire building - therefore, the owner/builder exemption does not apply. Everildo Ybaceta: Correct ... and a little further down the line, there might be a slight differentiation in that-but I'll get to that in a second. To qualify forthe exemption, the owner/builder must go to the Building Department to sign the application before staffand sign an Affidavit which states that he/she will be responsible for obtaining the permit. A copy ofthe document has been included in your information packet. The Affidavit states that you, as the owner/builder, recognize the construction work must be completed by a licensed contractor and that you have applied for the permit as an owner/builder under the exemption. It also states - and you must initial each ofthe items - that the permit is not required to be signed by the property owner unless he/she is responsible for the construction and is not hiring licensed contractors to assume this responsibility. The owner/builder is the responsible pa(y ofrecord on the building permit and they must protect themselves by not hiring unlicensed contractors to do that type ofwork. "l understand that the Scope of llork is limited to one or nto-family residences, afarm outbuilding, or a commercial building if the costs do not exceed $75,000;' The building or residence must be for the owner,/builder's personal use and occupancy and may not be built or substantially improved for sale within one year of the construction. l 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 403 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 Everildo Ybaceta: There was a Bill in the State's House of Representatives which passed (July; House Bill #447) and amends this Section slightly: "... unless the owner is completing the requirements of a building permit where the Contractor has substantially completed the project ..." If the contractor did the work but failed to complete the job for whatever reason, then the homeowner can take over the project and finish it. The Affidavit also states the owner/builder understands that: o he/she must provide direct on-site supervision ofthe construction work; o he/she cannot hire unlicensed persons to act as his/her contractor to supervise the work; o he/she may be held liable and subjected to financial risk for any injuries sustained by an unlicensed person (or his,iher employees) while working on the property; o the homeowner's insurance may not provide coverage for those injuries; . he/she must affirm that he/she is willfully acting as an owner/builder, and he/she is aware ofthe limits ofhis/her insurance coverage and the injuries sustained by workers while on the property; . he/she may not delegate his/her responsibility to supervise the work to a Contractor who is not licensed to perform the work being done; . any person working on the property who is not licensed must be under the direct supervision ofthe owner/builder and must be employed by the owner; r the owner/builder must comply with all laws conceming the withholding of Federal taxes and Social Security payments and must provide Workers' Compensation insurance coverage for such employees. Terry Jerulle: So, for me to get a permit as a General Contractor, I must provide to the County both Workers' Compensation documentation and liability insurance - correct? Everildo Ybaceta: Correct. Tena Jerulle: But the ovrner,/builder doesn't have to do that? Everildo Ybaceta: No, he or she does not. Patrick White: And as far as the liability that they will have - having not demonstrated any ofthose things as Mr. Jerulle has indicated - the Contractor must do it. If they hire someone - according to what the Affidavit says - and treat them as a"1099" (independent contractor) that would seem to nol be compliant with the law as I found out because it says "employee." Everildo Ybaceta: Right Patrick White: I don't understand why the 1099 wouldn't apply. But, I guess, hopelully we'll never have this issue come before us but, at least, I think it's worth mentioning at this moment ... Richard Joslin: But it's not a question about licensure ... Patrick White: I'm not done yet, sorry. The distinction with hiring someone who is unlicensed - or licensed - and having to provide them with some form of compensation if they are injured ... I don't know if obtaining a written Waiver and an acknowledgment that the person is responsible lor any injuries or harm that may 4 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 404 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 come to them. I don't know if it violates the Statute is what I'm saying - I think it's an open issue. Everildo Ybaceta: I cannot comment on that right now. Patrick White: I just wanted to point it out. If folks are going to be in that position, it's an option they may consider and it's one that we may have to, at some point, be the ones to adjudicate. Richard Joslin: Again, as lar as the licensing goes, though, that takes away this Board's action against the owner/builder. Ilhe/she hires someone who is not licensed or if someone gets hurt on the job ... Everildo Ybaceta: It is not - yes - the Contractors' Licensing Board would not hear that case. Richard Joslin: And so, what if something does happen? What if the owner,/builder does hire an unlicensed contractor - how is her/she ... penalized? Are we doing that? Everildo Ybaceta: That would come from the State's Construction Industry Licensing Board ("CILB") or from the Department of Business and Professional Regulation C'DBPR'). If it goes down that road, the authority to make the decision would fall under either Code Enforcement - because it is an owner,ibuilder situation depending on the violation or it could go to the DBPR who would most likely investigate the Workers' Compensation coverage aspect. Patrick White: So, if we have a [oca[ Contractor, who is locally licensed only, who violated one provision - [et's say the work costs more than $75,000 in a commercial build - and every.thing else applied, but he didn't obtain a permit, you're saying the case would not come before us? Where would the enforcement lie? I understand the County has options as to where it can bring an enforcement action ... to a Circuit Court Judge or wherever. but ... Everildo Ybaceta: If you're - l'm not sure I'm understanding your question conectly. You're asking if the owner of a commercial property violates the rule that the cost ofthe work cannot exceed $75,000, where would the enforcement go? Patrick White: Yes, and he didn't obtain a permit. He went ahead and said he qualified for the exemption but then the facts come to light that he didn't. Everildo Ybaceta: It would not go to the CILB ... it would go to the DBPR... it's something that they would have to prove and there would be an investigation at that point in time. Patrick White: Because the violation pertained to .... Everildo Ybaceta: And if they didn't ... Patrick White: ... not obtaining a permit and ... Everildo Ybaceta: ... that portion of it would fall under Code Enforcement because (1) it's an owner/builder, (2) because there wasn't a licensed contractor involved at that point in time ... so that, basically, takes Contractors' Licensing out of the situation. Patrick White: That's interesting. I don't know that I agree because if somebody is doing something without a permit when one is required, I think we have a case like that today. Everildo Ybaceta: Correct ... but there as a licensed ... well, let's not get into that portion yet. 5 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 405 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 6 Patrick White: And we issue Citations for unlicensed contracting that we have jurisdiction over so ... I don't know ... let'sjust hope we never have to. Chairman Lantz: Let me ask this scenario: Tommy Smith gets an owner/builder permit to replace his roof. He hires Joe Blow Roofing who is not licensed. Joe BIow Roofing does something wrong and screws it up. According to this, we don't get involved in the issue between Tommy Smith and Joe Blow Roofing because this clearly states that once an owner/builder gets the exemption, he/she is responsible to make sure Joe Blow Roofing is licensed, and he/she is responsible to make sure Joe Blow Roofing does itsjob, and then, on the bottom ofthe Affidavit, it says, "I agree that the Building Department won't help me." So is that truly the case? Patrick White: Which part? Everildo Ybaceta: I'm not going to say that the Building Depaftment would not help ... I wouldn't say that. I would say you are correct in that the owner/builder is assuming the responsibility of the permitting and the work on that property. If something structural is not correct or if the owner/builder hires Joe Person to do the work and Joe Person is not licensed, and if we do show up - we will issue a Citation to that unlicensed person ... Chairman Lantz: Even though it clearly states that it's the homeowner who is now the "contractor" - it's the homeowner'sjob to ensure that every person hired is either licensed or is a W-2 employee? We're still going to go after the person down the road because the homeowner didn't do his or herjob? Everildo Ybaceta: Right - as we've done in that case - in those situations - we're issued Citations to the unlicensed person and then we've referred the case to Code Enforcement to be handled because at that point - the owner of the property is directly responsible for the work that is being done to the properly. It's not the contractor - or the unlicensed contractor. Chairman Lantz: l'm confused ... because when the owner hires someone who is not a licensed contractor, that contractor is an "employee" -- right? Richard Joslin: I think he is. Everildo Ybaceta: There are two variations to this ... ifyou're find an owner/builder hired a person to do the work who is not licensed ... then he/she is an t.rnlicensed contractor ... Chairman Lantz: I've signed a contract with my employee - a tile setter - and I've said I'd pay him $4.50 a square foot to install tile. He's my employee - he's not an independent contractor. Richard Joslin: And he's gets a W-2. Chairman Lantz: He's a W-2 employee. Richard Joslin: Ifhe gets a 1099, then he's no longer... Chairman Lantz: I can't 1099 him because he's unlicensed ... Richard Joslin: Correct. Chairman Lantz: ... so he has to be a W-2 employee. Everildo Ybaceta: Are he acting as a contractor with you? Is he not signing a contract that says, I'm going to do "x," "y," and "2" on this? Chairman Lantz: I don't care how they do it, I don't care how many hours, as long as his pay is greater than the minimum wage - I don't care if it takes him two days or ten days to do it, he's getting paid piece work... and that's how it works. 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 406 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) Octobcr 16. 20 I 9 7 Assistant County Attorney Kevin Noell: I think the distinction the County is trying to make is if you're going to pay someone to do skilled work, then they must have a license for the skilled work that you're paying them to do. If, with an owner/builder situation, the Statute puts the obligation on the owner that he/she still has a duty to make sure that the person he/she pays to do skilled work is licensed. It doesn't alleviate the person doing the skilled work from having a license, so both actions could be taken - an action could be taken against the skilled worker who is doing, for example, electrical work r,r'ithout a license and who is being paid by the owner who doesn't have a license. That's to ensure the electrical work gets done properly. There could be in the same situation then - as Evy had mentioned the owner being sent to Code Enlorcement - that owner could be sent to Code Enforcement from the standpoint ofnot making sure that the electrical person who was being paid to do the work had a license. We very rarely ... because most times, the owner is somewhat of the innocent victim in this who doesn't understand the industry and things like that ... Chairman Lantz: But aren't these disclaimers to make the owner be responsible and can't claim, "l'm just a stupid homeowner," because they're signing this form nineteen times to say, "Look - I'm not stupid ... I'm not uneducated ... I understand the law and I'm going to follow the law." Then for the County to say, "Oh, wait - youjust signed this but... wait ... you don't understand the law?" Isn'tthat...? Assistant County Attorney Noell: I don't know ... I'm not saying that it's not enforced ... I just haven't had the occasion where I've been involved with that and, frankly, with a lot ofCode Enforcement matters, I'm not that often involved because ofthe frequency of which they prosecute their own cases and things like that. Patrick White: I think it just highlights the distinction as we referred to earlier about where proper jurisdiction lies for the unlawful activity. I think to the extent that an owner/builder assumes all those other responsibilities but then can't be held accountable lor not obtaining a permit when one would be required puts us in a grey area. I hope we never have to be responsible for that, but it would not come to us unless the County believes that this Board is the proper authority for adjudication. In that case, depending upon the litigation strategy of the owner and his,&er willingness to hire an attomey ... it would probably end up in Court. Terry Jerulle: Getting back to the insurance ... I must have liability insurance to practice as a General Contractor in this County and in this state, but the owner does not. Now, ilan owner is building a home, he/she does not have Homeou,ners' Insurance ... and the State is saying that he/she doesn't need to have general liability insurance - so there is no insurance on that project. Assistant County Attorney Noell: I think what they're saying is if, as an owner, you're going to build a house by yourself - all by yourself - then great. Ifyou're going to pay anyone to do any sort of work on that house, then they must have the proper licensures. Terry Jerulle: I'm talking about insurance. I'm talking about pedestrians walking by the house and getting hurt ... they have no recourse because there is no insurance coverage. With me, the pedestrian would have recourse - he/she would have ... Everildo Ybaceta: You're ... that is the risk that an owner,/builder takes. Terry Jerulle: But the County is not taking the risk ... we are putting other people at risk by not requiring an owner,/builder to have insurance. 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 407 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 Vice Chairman Matthew Nolton: You'd better believe they would still own the property. And, as a property owner, if he/she did something to put people at harm and they knew it, then they would have the same risk that they would have as a property owner. You could go after them as the property owner. TerryJerulle: Correct. Vice Chairman Nolton: So, there is insurance ... Terry Jerulle: But ifthere's no insurance ... Vice Chairman Nolton: Well, as a property owner, there may or may not be. Terry Jerulle: You don't have to have insurance. Chairman Lantz: But you would go after the property because the property can't be homesteaded until there is a Certificate ofOccupancy. Terry Jerulle: I just think that we're ... Everildo Ybaceta: That's where the risk comes into it. Patrick White: And, again, it's going to end up in Court and not likely here. Everildo Ybaceta: I mentioned House Bill #447. lt amended that exemption - you go to Page 20 -21 - and under 7(a), subparagraph 4, that section was amended to ... I can read that to you ifyou wish ... Richard Joslin: I'd like to hear it. Everildo Ybaceta: Okay. It says, "When completing the requirements of a building permit where the contractor listed on the permit has substantially completed the project as determined by the local permitting agency for one-family or two-family residences, townhomes, or any accessory structure for a one-family or two-family residence, a townhome, or an individual residential condominium unit, or cooperative, prior to qualifying for the exemption, the owner must receive approval from the local permitting agency and the local permitting agency must determine that the contractor listed on the permit has substantially completed the project, then an owner who qualifies for this exemption under this sub- paragraph is not required to occupy the dwelling or unit for at least one year after the completion ofthe project." Chairman Lantz: An example of this would be when you go to sell your house, the title company says you have an expired permit and the contractor cannot be found, so now you must go to the Building Department to obtain a r:ompletion permit - maybe you need to have a final inspection done orjust pay fees - but you don't need to hire another contractor because you can do it yourself. Everildo Ybaceta: Correct. And this is where a condominium is included in that. Chairman Lantz: I'm just curious-what's the approval process? Everildo Ybaceta: You would have to meet with the Building Official or his designee to go over the permit and the work that was substantially completed. We've already had some meetings about it and the consensus was ifthere are no life/health or safety issues, the Building Official will approve the exemption and the application ofthe owner,/builder. However, we haven't had any applications and are discussing what "substantially completed" means - there are a lot ofquestions that still need to be answered. 8 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 408 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) Patrick White: Speaking from my experience with those words, it usually means using the "50% Rule." That aside, I can understand how one ofour cases could lead to that very set ofcircumstances where an owner/builder may need or may choose to do that. Everildo Ybaceta: That's correct. Richard Joslin: It seems as ifthere are an awful lot ofgrey areas in this whole this statement. Everildo Ybaceta: Yes, sir. Chairman Lantz: Great job and thanks for the presentation. Although I don't agree with everything, t appreciated the presentation. Everildo Ybaceta: You're welcome. Chairman Lantz: Let's move on to 7 - A, Year End Reports. 7, REPORTS: A. Year End Reports (10/01/2018 - 0913012019) and 2019 Renewal Totals Everildo Ybaceta noted the Year End Report had been included in the Board's information packet. Chairman Lanfz mentioned having difficulty reading Page 33 because ofthe formatting and noted it was still difficult to read when viewing the page on the computer. Everildo Ybaceta agreed there were some issues with the programming. Chairman Lantz: I think it's a great report and it's awesome to see and I can infer the number is eleven hundred seventy "something" which is pretty good - Ijust hate to see a report that someone spent a lot of time working on to be covered over and not read. Patrick White noted he had a problem with the right-hand column -the edge. Chairman Lantz (to Staff): In general, as you've read and interpreted this report, do you have any input... are you happy... seeing any trends? Everildo Ybaceta: We've seen a slight up-tick in cases that we've opened and closed. We've maintained from years past - it shows that we are on track. Also, if you've noticed, the number of specialty contractors and state-certified contractors have increased slightly from last year's numbers. All in all, it's remained steady. Patrick White: As far as the non-renewals - 731 - is there a follow-up notification using the then-current address to remind them? A lot ofthe requests for waivers of exams, similarto today's case, are based on the "Oh, I didn't know" or "I forgot" or "I didn't receive my notice" or "I didn't renew - please excuse me" excuses. I'm looking to bull-work our evidence in those cases where we send an additional notice to them. I'm pretty sure what the process is - Everildo Ybaceta: Yes. During the renewal process - one week before the September 30th deadline -we also send a reminder notice by email to all contractors that they were approaching a hard date and that notice increased the numbers of contractors coming in to renew their licenses. We do more than one notice - we start sending them in July. Chairman Lantz: So, there are 731 who did not renew? Everildo Ybaceta: Correct. 9 October 16, 2019 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 409 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16. 2019 8. NEwBUSTNESS: A. Orders of the Board: Patrick ll/hite moved to approve oulhorizing the Chairman to sign the Orders of the Board Terry Jerulle offered a Second in supporl ofthe motion. Carried unanimously, 5 - 0. (\1119: The individuals who lestified in thefollowing cases under Ilem 8, "New Business," were Jirsl sworn in by the Atlorney for the Board.) B. Roberto Kindelan: A pplication for Reinstatement of License and Request to Waive Exam(s) (dlbl a " Co mmer c ial Land Ma i nte nance") l0 Chairman Lantz: Ofthat 731 -just from your experience - what percentage of those do you think will renew within the next two or three months? I assume some people will forget - and when they will go for a permit, they will realize that they haven't renewed. Do you think a lot of them will renew? Everildo Ybaceta: Yes, it's been my experience that, in the next couple of months, they will start coming in slowly and they will pay the late fees. Patrick White: So, we don't do a post-3O-day follow up notice? Everildo Ybacet : No, but we can. It's not difficult to do. Patrick White: That's what I was suggesting because it will spur those people who were going to renew but forgot - or whatever their excuse or explanation is - and it will relieve us from additional work. Everildo Ybaceta: That is a quick report and we could send it out to the non- renewals at that point in time. Patrick White: Thank you. Richard Joslin: I have a question: When it comes to the category for Swimming Pool Maintenance and Repair, it's my understanding that a service company can maintain a pool or repair existing or replace an)'thing that already exists on a swimming pool - correct? As well as renovations ... as long as the structure isn't changed. Everildo Ybaceta: I'm sorry - what license are you talking ... Richard Joslin: Swimming Pool Maintenance and Repair. Everildo Ybaceta: Yes, there are certain ... yes, you can do certain things - yes, you are correct. Richard Joslin: Question: Are they (a service company) allowed to install brand new equipment on a newly constructed swimming pool? Everildo Ybaceta: I will get back to you. Richard Joslin: As well as doing plumbing ... okay ... I need clarification on the whole situation. I know some who are doing this. I said they can't, and they said they could. But you will find out for me. Everildo Ybaceta: I will, and I will send you that information. Richard Joslin: Thank you. 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 410 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 Lilla Davis, Administrative Supervisor, Contractors' Licensing Office, provided the following background information: o The Applicant has applied to reinstate his Landscaping (Restricted) and Irrigation License; . His license was cancelled in 2016; . He requested to waive the re-testing requirement by applying the scores ofthe exams taken in 1999, as follows: o Business and Law exam- 87oZ and o Irrigation Sprinkler trade test - 84olo; o He currently has an active license in Lee County Richard Joslin: Is his Lee County license also restricted? Lilla Davis: His license is for lrrigation - Lee County does not offer a license for landscaping. Chairman Lantz: So, you would be working only in Collier County and Lee County? Roberto Kindelan: Yes, Chairman Lantz: What kind of work do you do? Roberto Kindelan: We do a lot of roadway work for the County and landscape maintenance - things like that. Richard Joslin: Why is your license restricted - as to what and when? Roberto Kindelan: It's a restricted landscaping license - not a state license. Everildo Ybaceta: There was a change in the Ordinance and Florida Stalules lhat separated "Landscape lrrigation" and "Irrigation" - that's where the restrictions apply. Chairman Lantz: Is he licensed to do one or both? Everildo Ybaceta: He ... Roberto Kindelan: There are two licenses - Inigation and Restricted Landscaping, compared to the old license which was unlimited Landscaping with the State which gave you lrrigation and ... Everildo Ybaceta: Correct. Roberto Kindelan: ... Landscaping in one license. Now we have two separate licenses. Chairman Lantz: So, "Restricted Landscaping" is what is in our packet on Page 35 as a "Landscaping Contractor?" Everildo Ybaceta: Yes. Richard Joslin: What is the restriction? Everildo Ybaceta: lt's the inigation ... Roberto Kindelan: Can't do irrigation with landscaping ... it's separate. Richard Joslin: Now I understand. Roberto Kindelan: This was a clerical error... I personally handle all the state licenses and renew them myself. I tumed the local licenses over to the office and the staffhandles all that work, then they would come back to me - after everything has been renewed - with the Occupational Licenses ("Business Tax Receipts"). Ijust assumed they were both connected - they're not. We renewed our Occupational ll 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 411 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 Licenses all these years, but we never caught the fact that the local licenses had expired. If we were to try to renew an Occupational License under a State license, there was always the issue that we had to prove the license had been renewed. With the local licenses, it didn't catch. We renewed the Occupational Licenses for all those years but the two aren't connected. Patrick White: And that's because - it's probably more appropriate for what has been called an "Occupational License" but what it really is - is a Business Tax Receipt. And, therefore, you can understand why local government isn't monitoring the "licensure." Roberto Kindelan: I just assumed it was because when we renew the State - and I assumed that we needed that to renew the Occupational Licenses, but it wasn't the case. Patrick Whitel Far be it for me to suggest that two sets of constitutional officers could communicate with one another to assure that there's compliance with the law and the appropriate fees are collected in four years. Chairman Lantz: So how long have you been expired? Roberto Kindelan: Since 2016, I think. Richard Joslin: So, for four years, you didn't realize that you weren't licensed? Roberto Kindelan: I don't think it's four years ... three years. And, no, I didn't ... I didn't know to tell you the truth. As I said, my check was for the Occupational License thinking that it was the issue and, you know, we don't pull any permits for landscaping or irrigation because we're just doing repairs - we do maintenance only and we don't do any new construction jobs. Under our Mechanical Contractors' License, we are pulling permits all the time, so that was always the "catch." But in this case, we never caught it. Ijust kept seeing those renewed Occupational Licenses and thought it was all connected. Patrick White: Along with the Request for a Waiver, you would also like to change the name - is that what led to "catching" this? Roberto Kindelan: Yes, when we tried to change the name - that's how we caught the fact that the licenses were expired because when we went to change the name - that brought it up. Terry Jerulle: So, for the past three years, you've been working for Collier County t2 Roberto Kindelan: Yes. Terry Jerulle: ... without a license? Roberto Kindelan: That's correct. Patrick White: And the contracts that you signed didn't require you to prove you were licensed? Roberto Kindelan: For our contracts, we basically supplied them with our Occupational Licenses and that's probably why I thought they were all connected because nothing ever happened. Patrick White: Having represented both the Purchasing Depa(ment and the Building Department, I can understand how that might have happened. Roberto Kindelan: I didn't - we didn't do it on purpose - we didn't maliciously - it wasjust one ofthose things that - I never assumed they were not connected. Terry Jerulle: So, are there any fines or fees? 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 412 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 Everildo Ybaceta: There are late charges ... Roberto Kindelan: There are late charges for both licenses, yeah. Terry Jerulle: And the reason you are here and bringing all this to light as opposed to just taking the test is ...? Roberto Kindelan: I could have gone and taken the test again ... I mean ... I could do it. I just thought it was ... something that was an error on our part that we didn't ... you know ... we didn't do it on purpose and we haven't been out ofthe business for that amount of time, Ijust figured this was a quicker way to take care of it and seeing that if I hadn't been doing the business for the last three years, then maybe I should be required to take the test again, but ... Chairman Lantz: You have other licenses besides this - you are a professional engineer and you mentioned something about Mechanical ... Roberto Kindelan: We have a separate air-conditioning company. Richard Joslin: How about those licenses - are they expired too? Roberto Kindelan: No. All the State licenses ... we have pest control licenses with the State, too ... all the State licenses, I handle myself because it's a little bit more cumbersome for the office people to do it. Butthe local licenses - it'sjust as simple for them to go and renew it at the same time as they do the Occupational Licenses. Because itwas easy, ljustdidn'thave 100% control over what was done. It'smy fault. Patrick White: Are there any Continuing Education requirements that you are aware of for the scope of either license for which you are requesting us to waive the exams? Roberto Kindelan: None ofthose licenses require any Continuing Education - the State licenses do and I'm up to date on those. Patrick White: Thank you. Just wanted it on the record. Chairman Lantz: So, your testimony is that you have been in the industry - actively working - for the whole time that your licenses were expired, and you have been (a) licensed in Lee County, and (b) actively working ... so taking the tests would be superfluous because you've clearly demonstrated through your years ofconduct. Roberto Kindelan: We've been in business since 1999 - twenty years of experience. Ijust thought it was ... you know ... the simpler process, or the preferred process, to explain what we did since we do work for the County. Patrick White: And because you work for the County and have a contract to work for the County, I would encourage you to read that contract in pa(icular as to what the consequences may or may not be if you perform work without the appropriate licenses, and whether the County has an obligation to reimburse you for the work performed. Richard Joslin: Isn't it the County's responsibility to check to see if he is a licensed contractor before they signed the contract? Patrick White: I think I alluded to that earlier, but my guess is that - after today's discussion - there will be an interior dialogue and hopefully a box to check in the purchasing contract process. Roberto Kindelan: We bid jobs all the time for the County and submit the paperwork... Patrick White: I understand. Roberto Kindelan: ... and, basically, we submit our Occupational License as ... l3 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 413 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16. 2019 Patrick White: I understand and my point about "Occupational Licenses" is not lost ... you have the same issue with the County's Staff. And the whole idea is ... the reason why we are all on this Board is - and t speak for myself - is always to improve the processes. Sometimes itjust takes an experience like you've had to illuminate an opportunity to do things better - there always is. And, so, as long as we continue to do that ... Chairman Lantz: Isn't that one ofthe reasons why they changed the name from "Occupational License" to "Business Tax?" Patrick White: It helps but people still use ... Terry Jerulle: When did you find this out ... that you do not have your licenses? Roberto Kindelan: I don't know... maybe a month or so ago. Terry Jerulle: So, in the last month, you could have taken the tests - within a week, you could take the tests and have your license back. Roberto Kindelan: Yes. that's correct. Terry Jerulle: I'm sorry - I'm just frustrated that you're here ... and it may not be all your fault. Directing his question to Staff: Why didn't somebody explain to him that he could have taken the tests four weeks ago and he wouldn't have to be here? Roberto Kindelan: It was. Terry Jerulle: In the last month, have you been working for the County without a license? Roberto Kindelan: Yes. Terry Jerulle: See - see ... that'sjust frustrating to me. If I'm on ajobsite and the County comes and says, "you don't have a license," ... the County is going to shut me down. Why didn't somebody explain to him that he had to take the test? He wouldn't be here. Roberto Kindelan: It was explained to me that I could take the test, but I sort of interpreted that it would be better to come and explain what we did to you guys ... I just assumed it was better to not sort of hide it. You know ... to me, it was much more up front to go through this process. Terry Jerulle: I completely appreciate your honesty and professionalism. Ifyou ever looked back at the meeting minutes from the last couple ofyears, you would have found out that I am one ofthe biggest advocates oftaking the test. Roberto Kindelan: Yes, okay, I know now. Terry Jerulle: I'm bringing up stuff- as I am right now - so I don't know why somebody would tell you to come here when you could have taken the test a month ago and be done. Patrick White: Because it's a lawful action, that's why. Terry Jerulle: I understand. Patrick White: And it's within our purview to grant it or not ... and although I understand that it may be more expeditious ... it may be something that reduces the risk for the person coming before us ... but had he not, it wouldn't have illuminated the opening in the regulatory fabric and we wouldn't have had the opportunity - based on the Applicant being so forthright - to hopefully address the situation with the County and tighten things up. So, there's always two sides to it. Richard Joslin: How does an unlicensed contractor working on ajob who has an employee who gets hurt ... if he has insurance, would the insurance company l,{ 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 414 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 20 t9 pay the claim? Patrick White: I don't know. Vice Chairman Nolton: Every insurance company reviews its claims differently. Richard Joslin: I'm talking about working in the center ofroadways and ... Roberto Kindelan: I've never had an insurance company ever ask for a copy ofour license - never. Richard Joslin: I just wondered. Roberto Kindelan: They've never asked us - we have injuries all the time and our Workers' Comp insurance pays. Jeb Schneck, Esquire, Attorney for the Board: Mr. Chairman, this may clarify the situation a little bit. Generally, roadway work ... in the State or the County's rightof way ... the work that is being done, and I believe it includes landscaping, is exempt from licensure under Chapter 489 and that may be why this wasn't picked up when his contracts were being renewed. That's potentially what the disconnect is. Patrick White: lt goes to the larger issues of sovereign immunity and why it is that the State ... through the lobbying oflocal governments ... has effectively sought to insulate the local jurisdictions from liability. There are competing public policy reasons why we have those kinds of laws. Roberto Kindelan: There are lots ofexemptions for pest control for which we maintain a State license ... to have the license regardless ofwhether it's exempt or not. We've done that from Day One. Chairman Lanfzi What you're saying is - technically - he wasn't at fault doing work for the County and the medians because he didn't ... it's not like he was working without a license because he didn't need a license? Attorney Schneck: I can't say for certain because each municipality has its own requirements. But it was my experience when I worked for a local government that there generally weren't any specific licensure requirements when it came to roadway work. Now, could a county or a local government add that as an additional layer in their bidding requirements, sure. But, generally speaking, it's not required. Chairman Lantz: I'm not talking about bidding - I'm talking about from our perspective, He was working the roadway - he wasn't doing unlicensed work - correct? Attorney Schneck: Correct. In the handout, Section 49-103, subsection (l), states that exemption. The only thing I would want to check is the Florida DOT's rule that defines "services incidental thereto ..." to make sure that landscaping and irrigation work fits within that definition ... I think it does, but I would like to confirm that. Chairman Lantz: He made that argument that he technically didn't need a license but that he wanted to have it. Attorney Schneck: Yes. Patrick White: And it doesn't preclude the issue of what the County may choose to do under your contract with them relative to compensation. Even if it's weren't required by state law. the contract may require it. Roberto Kindelan: I understand. Patrick White: Okay. And there's a general boilerplate provision which usually does. l5 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 415 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16.2019 Roberto Kindelan: Okay. Ijust want to repeat again, I could have taken the test ... Patrick White: Sure. Roberto Kindelan: ... and easily passed it without a problem, but I thought that was sort of sweeping the problem under the rug to make it go away without ... to be 1007o transparent regardless of whatever the limitations it had ... we made the mistake and we have to deal with it. Chairman Lantz: Does anyone want to make a motion? Patrick lYhite moved to approve bolh lhe requesl to ,'oive the lest tequirement and the name change opplication of Roberto Kindelan. Vice Chairman Malthew Nolton offered o Second in supporl of the motion. Discussion: . Patrick White: I understand ifthere are potentially any votes against the motion but, in my perspective -just balancing the equities - I'd rather have the benefit ofwhat we've discussed and leamed today than to have it pass by without. o Richard Joslin: Considering that we've been told that he didn't really need a license to do the work for the County that he has been doing, then I don't see any reason why not. He hasn't broken the law for what he's been doing - not for what he might do - but for what he has been doing. I do go along with Mr. Jerulle about having him take the test. Since 1999, are there things that he could have leamed from the test that he would take that could help him? o Roberto Kindelan: Possibly from the landscaping side. From the pest control side, I do Continuing Education and that's far more critical than the landscaping part. I have attended classes at the Ag Center for Continuing Education credits for pest control that has to do with landscaping, but I don't know what I would leam from the test versus landscaping and irrigation compared to 1999. o Chairman Lantz: There were changes to the Business and Law exam. o Richard Joslinr Your experience is not in question ... just the rules and terms that may have changed. o Terry Jerulle: Just to be on the record, I would be in favor of giving you a temporary license contingent upon your taking the test. o Roberto Kindelan: I don't have a problem with that. Chairman Lantz colled for a vote on the motion, Motion carried, the vote was 3 -'Yes,'/2 - "No." Mr. Jerulle and Mn loslin were opposed. Vice Chairman Nolton commented: Mr. White made a good point about bringing this to light, but I am assuming that they do work for other people thanjust the government which would mean they are doing work without a license so I would l6 Chairman Lantz: Let's take a vote. If the motion fails, we can move on. 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 416 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 think the County's most expedient way to get it corrected would have been to recommend that he take the test immediately. Everildo Ybaceta: For the record, we do tell all our customers - contractors who are in this situation - it's easier and faster to take the test. We do state they could apply, take the test, and be done within a week to ten days. These options are always explained to them. It's up to them to decide which option to take: (a) take the test, or (b) appear before the Board. Patrick White: Just from my perspective going forward: a suggestion about what they may get as relief coming here instead oftaking the exam (and passing) - going forward, I am going to be far more inclined to consider the option of issuing a conditional license, conditioned upon passing within "x" number ofdays or weeks. So, what the County should be telling someone in this situation is that although in the past the Board may have been a bit more willing to consider and grant the waiver, now the Board will issue a conditional license - which means the contractor wi[[ need to take the exam anlavay. I am going to be more inclined to offering that as an option. Everildo Ybaceta: We can definitely do that. C. Patrick Purnell: Application for Reinstatement of License and Request to Waive Exam(s) (dlbl a " C le ar C ho ice Shut ter, Inc.") Lilla Davis provided background information: . The Applicant has applied to reinstate his Class and Glazing Contractor's License . His license was cancelled in 2013 for non-renewal . He has requested to apply the scores from the exams he took in 2007 in Lee County o Business and Law - 94o/o (Test date: May 2,2007) o Glazing Trade test - 84% (Test date: September 19,2007) . He is an active Certified Building Contractor with the State and County . He wants to reinstate the Glass and Glazing Contractor's License to be able to work on commercial buildings Vice Chairman Nolton: We've seen you here before - right? Patrick Purnell: Yes, at your last meeting, sir. Chairman Lantz: The last time we saw you, was it for Glass and Glazing or Hurricane Protection? Patrick Purnell: It was for Hurricane Protection - we want to install windows, and in the application the last time around, we went for the Hurricane Protection and not the Glass and Glazing. You waived my taking the examination for the hurricane protection and I'm hoping you will do the same thing again for the Glass/Glazing. My wife went down to the County to pay whatever we had to pay so we could to t7 Chairman Lantz: All right. Ready to move on. 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 417 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 continue to install windows in high-rises, but it wasn't allowed because this part of it wasn't approved. Chairman Lantz: So, the Hurricane Protection isjust shutters, and not impact resistant windows? Everildo Ybaceta: Correct. Patrick Purnell: Again, my negligence in not reviewing the application before it was submitted the last time. Chairman Lantz: ln the past, you had a Hurricane Protection and Glass/Glazing or ...? Patrick Purnell: Both, yes. Chairman Lantz: And then you got your Certified Building Contractor's License? Patrick Purnell: Yes. And then the County started enforcing - as it was explained at the last meeting - that to work over three floors, we had to have the Glass/Glazing License where, previously, all they required was the CBC and that was fine. I let the Glass/Glazing expire because I didn't need it. Chairman Lantz: Any questions from the Board? Patrick White: Mr. Chairman, I am just understanding that this is more than just Business and Law exam waiver. There is also a substance and scope ofwork. Chairman Lanfz: Well, it says Waiver of Exams so I would assume there is a Business and Law and a Glass/Glazing exam. Is that conect? Everildo Ybaceta: He has his Business and Law already and that is still in effect... Patrick White: From Lee County. Everildo Ybaceta: Yes. But his Glass/Clazing is the one that needs to be updated. Chairman Lantz: Regardless, he would not need to take the Business and Law? Everildo Ybaceta: No. Chairman Lantz: If we deny him, the only thing he needs to take is the Glass and Glazing trade test. Patrick White: And when was that taken, sir? Patrick Purnell: In 2007. Patrick White: Okay - the same as the Business and Law. Chairman Lantz: And when did you take the Building Contractor exam? Patrick Purnell: In 2001. The Board questioned when the last changes were made to the licenses ... Terry Jerulle asked if it was in 2010 and Vice Chairman Nolton stated several changes have been made since 2007 including wind pressures and wind calculations. Patrick Purnell: In my Continuing Education for by Certified Building Contractor's License ("CBC"), we have reviewed the hurricane window protection many times. That's always a subject in course. Chairman Lantz: Since we have a professional engineer here (Vice Chair Nolton), I'll ask him the question: lf I were installing windows on a two-story building and if I were installing windows on a three-story buitding, what would be the difference? Vice Chairman Nolton: Well, with windows and impact, there's a height restriction but the question ofcalculations is all the same process. So, it doesn't matter - it's not the elevation calculation that changes ... it's the pressure. l8 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 418 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16. 2019 Chairman Lantz: But a window installer is not allowed to determine the wind pressures if it's over three stories - right? Vice Chairman Nolton: He needs to have an engineering report that says the wind pressures are on the plans. Patrick Purnell: Right. And we install the windows per the engineer - which is the first thing the Inspector asks for. Vice Chairman Nolton: He has engineering that says what the wind pressures are and then he has NOA for the windows. lt's the Building DePartment that says if they meet. Chairman Lantz: So, what is the difference between installing as a Contractor for a two or three or four-story building? Is there - obviously, there are differences from an Engineer's perspective but that doesn't pertain to him Iindicating Mr. Pumel[]. Vice Chairman Nolton: The reason why he got tied up is because he's a Certified Building Contractor and can't work on buildings ... Chairman Lantz: I understand ... a CBC can't do structural work. But what I'm saying as a practical aspect, is there a difference if he's doing windows in a two-story building versus a three-story building? Vice Chairman Nolton: No. Chairman Lantz: So, what you're saying as a Professional Engineer or what I'm interpreting as your saying, is it's not much ofa difference from an installer's standpoint if he is working on a two-story or three-story building ... Patrick White: The fastening hardware will have to comply with whatever the NOA Chairman Lantzt .., because the difference in the windows is the Engineer's perspective and not the installer's? Vice Chairman Nolton: The difference would be that you may need more scaffolding or more staging if you were doing it from the outside for a four-story or less structure. There is a difference in how you're working. Once you get up and you get into storefronts, it changes tremendously compared to a typical window. Terry Jerulle: Ifhe's licensed, he can do windows and storefronts if ... Vice Chairman Nolton: With a Glass and Glazing ... yes. Richard Joslin: But only up to three stores - correct? Vice Chairman Nolton: Once he has this license, he can do any structure. Richard Joslin: What would the difference be in doing a three-story home versus as 24-story building? Vice Chairman Nolton: It's all up to the Engineer ... and the equipment that will meet those pressures - the installation becomes more technical and complicated when you start to do a storefront. Patrick Purnell: You install per the Engineer regardless of where you are standing on the ground or on a scaffold twenty-four stories up. Vice Chairman Nolton: Have you ever been on a scaffold twenty-four stories up? Patrick Purnell: No - absolutely not! (laughing) Chairman Lantz: So, we already gave him - last month - was it last month? Patrick Purnell: At the last meeting... Chairman Lanfz: At the last meeting, we gave him approval for the shutters. Now we're adding the windows which, in my mind, is no different. Does anyone disagree? l9 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 419 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 Terry Jerulle: Ithinkthere's a big difference between a shutter and a window. A shutter is protection and a window is structural and moisture. Mr. Purnell, you know howlfeel. I don't mind giving you a conditional license. Ijustthink everybody should take the test ifthey haven't taken it in the last year or two. lt's been a while so ... those are my feeling. I think you're a good guy and a professional from what I know but those are my leelings. Patrick Purnell: The only reason why I haven't taken the test is because of this new way of enforcing the Code. Obviously, I would have no problem taking the test, but I already did it and now the County says, "that doesn't work anyrnore." But it does and I already took the test but if you want me to take the test - I'll take the test. Terry Jerulle: But, in the meantime, I don't mind giving you a conditional license. Patrick Purnell: I appreciate that. Palrick lYhite moved lo approve granting the Applicant's requesl lo waive the exam tesling requiremenl. Richard Joslin: Without a condition? Patrick White: No condition. Chairman Lantz: Is there a Second? (There was no response.) Chuirman Lantz offered a Second in support of the motion. There was no discussion. Chuirman Lantz called for a vole on lhe motion, Motion carried, the vote wos 3 -'Yes"/2 -'No.' Mr. Jerulle and Mr. Nolton were opposed. Vice Chairman Nolton commented: Everybody who comes here has messed up somehow or has made a mistake, or whatever, and they're trying to do it without taking the test. My general feeling is- go take the test. If you messed up, don't come here asking for a special dispensation - go take the test. Chairman Lantzt I think I would have done the exact same thing that he did. If I started offwith a Glass and Glazing License and a Hurricane Protection License and then I upgraded to a Certified Building Contractor's License, of course I'd get rid of those two licenses because I didn't need them. In the past, as a Building Contractor, I could do windows and shutters all the time. But I think he's a separate story - I think he got caught in the system. [f I were in his shoes, I would have done the same thing. Vice Chairman Nolton: Again, I was not speaking directly to him ... I'm saying that, in general, that most people who come before us is because they have messed up somewhere. I agree, his situation is kind ofunique because the State is enforcing the Code a little differently than the County is enforcing the Code. Chairman Lantz: Is it like this is all counties? Patrick Purnell: I usually don't have a problem with the administration - the permitting and all that ... I haven't had a problem ... Chairman Lantz: Have the other counties determined that windows and shutters 20 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 420 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16,2019 are structural as well? Patrick Purnell: This is the first time that it's ever come up. Vice Chairman Nolton: The facts are the Code has determined they are structural - whether other j urisd ictions have enforced it or not - they should be because the State's Building Code has decided that windows and shutters are part ofthe structure. Patrick White: So, if you have similar problems concerning licensure in other jurisdictions where you might want to work, just make sure that you're covered with the proper Iicense types, Vice Chairman Nolton: It's not a new distinction - it's been there for a while. It's been decided that because of where we are and that we have hurricanes, if the exterior gets penetrated, you have big problems. The State has now decided they are part of the structural components ofa building and we don't want buildings to be penetrated. Patrick White: If you lose the glazing - it's just like any penetration. Now the pressure differentials are insane - you can either collapse or blow up the building. D. Travis Bullock: Application to Qualify Second Entity (Currently Qualified: dlbla"Southwest Tile Techs, Inc;' Proposed Second Entity: dbla"Travis Tile and Marble, LLC') Lilla Davis provided background information: . The Applicant has applied to Qualify a Second Entity; o He currently is a licensed Tile and Marble Contractor in Collier County; o His license is active and in good standing since 2004. Chairman Lantz questioned the Applicant: Q. You already have a tile business that you set up with your partner - right? ,4. Yes. p. Your current partner doesn't want to do as much work as you want to do? ,.4. Right. Q, And do you now want to go offand work on your own? A. Yeah-l have a company ofmy own. Q. And are you still going to be partners with your current partner? ,4. Yes. Q. And so, if a customer calls you asking for a tile floor to be installed, are you going to do it with Travis Tile or with Southwest Tile Techs? ,4. ['m going to find my own jobs and my own people. My partner now has built up relationships clients over the years who he personally deals with - like, recurring usually. I'm going to find my own and not do anything with the clients that he has. Q. So, you're going to be qualifuing a business that you're not really working in with anyone? Any new jobs will be under Travis Tile and Marble? ,4. I'm still going to be working with the current one [Southwest Tile Techs], but he doesn't take on a lot ofjobs now. He used to do a lot of the physical work but he's not able to anymore. So, he takes care ofthe office work and getting clients - stuff like that. He only takes on a certain amount of work. I don't have enough 2l 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 421 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 work, working with him. So, I can continue to work with him at that same workload and be able to do more on my own. Vice Chairman Nolton questioned the Applicant: Q. What are your current responsibilities with your existing company? ,4. Mostly doing the physical installations and supervising the jobs. Q. How many employees do you have? ,4. One. Q. The two owners and one? .4. Yes. Richard Joslin questioned the Applicant: p. Wouldn't it be easier to add more employees and you could take on more responsibilities so you would make more money? Or do you want to separate the money, too? ,4. My partner doesn't want to take on the extra responsibilities. He's got enough. q. Ifthere's only one - is it you and another employee who actually do the work? ,4. Yes. p. That one employee who is left is going to do the work that he [the partner] has and you're going to do whatever you have going on - if you have two separate jobs - how are you going to split yourself to get both jobs done? ,4. l'm going to be working with the current company as I am now and then I'm going to be going to do other stuff on my own. q. What if you have two houses that both must be done at the same time with one person only? .,4. We'll have to figure that out with scheduling. The one employee is not going to work for both companies. He's still only going to work for the current company. Chairman Lantz questioned the Applicant: Q. Is he also a tile setter or operator? .,4. Yes - he's an installer. Vice Chairman Nolton questioned the Applicant: Q. Does the current company use outside workforce besides the one? ,4. No. Chairman Lantz questioned the Applicant: Q. Do you plan on using outside workforce in the new company? .4. Eventually. For at least the first year or so, it'sjust going to be me trying to get jobs and build a customer base. Vice Chairman Nolton questioned the Applicant: Q. It sounds as ifyour partner is in the twilight of his career and is slowing down. Have you have had any conversations about you buying more or taking over his business? ,4. No. There have been conversations, but they go nowhere ... so ... 22 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 422 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 Vice Chairman Nolton questioned the Applicant: Q. So, he's not licensed - and he couldn't qualify it? ,4. Yes. I qualified it fifteen years ago for him. 2. How can you start a new business but need someone else to qualify it for you? Terry Jerulle questioned the Applicant: Q. Is this your only job right now? l. Is what ...? p. Your employment? Do you have any other employment besides Southwest Tile Techs that you own l0% o{? ..4. That's my only employment right now. Q. So, you only get paid by the current tile company? A. Yes. Q. You don't work anywhere else or do anlhing else? ,4. I sell some things online ... but that's not making any money right now. Richard Joslin questioned the Applicant: Q. How are you paid? By salary? .,4. Yes. Q. Bythejob? -4. It's a percentage. C. Is that the reason why you want to separate because the percentage isn't high enough and you're not making enough money? ,4. Yes, and there's not enough work being provided by the way he wants to do things. Chairman Lantz questioned the Applicant: Q. How many hours a week would you say you work right now? l. Average - probably would be about thirty. p. And how many do you want to work? .4. Probably about sixty. Terry Jerulle questioned the Applicant: Q. Does he know you're goingto qualify another entity? ,4. Yes. Chairman Lantz questioned the Applicant: Q. So, when you get your own entity - you're still going to be his installer? .4. Yes. 23 Patrick White questioned the Applicant: Q. So, he is eventually going to dissolve his business - is that your understanding? .4, He's eventually going to retire but... Q. And when he does, what are you going to do relative to qualifying that business? ,4. He'll probablyjust dissolve it at that point. Q. Okay. 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 423 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 Q. Are you going to be on Southwest Tile's payroll or is he going to sub-out to Travis tile? ,4. He's not going to sub-out to Travis Tile. I'll work onjobs for Southwest and get paid for it. Travis Tile will be separate. Q. Who buys the materials - Thinset, tile, grout? ,4. For the current company? Q. Yes. ..4. It depends on thejob. 0, Are you guys typically supplying tile and setting material or are you guy strictly labor? .4. The company provides the Thinset and tile. Q. The company being Southwest or the company being whoever hires Southwest? l. Southwest Tile. And then sometimes if we're working for a builder, they will supply the materials. Q. Southwest Tile's typical client base is ...? Do you deal with contractors or homeowners? ,4. Small homeowners and residential stuff, Patrick White questioned the Applicant: Q. I'm confused. You're saying the bulk ofthe business that Southwest does is with small homeowners or with smaller builders of homes? .,4. It's homeowners mainly - the personal relationships that he built up with people over the last thirty years or so. He has his small client base who referjobs and then every once-in-a-while, he'll get aword of mouth jobthatcomes in. It's not really from builders or construction work. Chairman Lantz questioned the Applicant: Q. Do you guys typically supply the materials - like tile or stone - or do the homeowners go to a tile store and buy it? .,4. It's a little ofboth. Vice Chairman Nolton questioned the Applicant: Q. Do you anticipate being involved with both companies for a long period or do you anticipate starting this new company and eventually transitioning tojust that company? ,4. Eventually when he retires which will probably be within the next three or four years, I think I'll be transitioned completely to Travis Tile and Marble. Patrick White: questioned the Applicant: p. Because there won't be a Southwest? ,4. Yes. I don't plan on continuing with Southwest after that point. p. I don't know that it's "your" decision ... is it... as a ten percent owner? .4. Yes. I could talk to him about it and work something out but, eventually, I just want to go to Travis Tile and Marble. Chairman Lantz questioned the Applicant: 21 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 424 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16. 2019 Q. How do you guys handle Workers' Comp? Do you have a policy? Do you work on an exemption? .4. Me and my current partner are exempt, and our employee is on a policy. Vice Chairman Nolton questioned the Applicant: Q. lt sounds as if the new company is going to do the same kind of work as the existing company. Once you have qualified both companies, there's nothing to prevent both companies from bidding on the same work. .,4. In the new company, I plan on working more for builders and designers and stuff like that, and not interlering with any ofthe clients who my current partner has. Richard Joslin questioned the Applicant: Q. I think I understand what you think you want to do but if you get busy, how are you going to handle both companies? Ifyou want to work 60 hours a week through your new business, how are you going to help your other business do his work, too, if there's only one other employee? Do you think he will find someone else to take your place so you can do what you want to do? ,4. In the beginning, I'm not planning on taking on any big projects - probably at least for the first yearor so until I build up some capital. After that, I will tryto get some employees and grow. Patrick White questioned the Applicant: Q, But ... as a Qualifier ofboth entities ... do you feel you would be able to supervise and appropriately direct all the employees and keep an eye on all thejobs? .4. Yes. Q. I think - if I understood him correctly - he said he wanted to work 60 hours a week - not 60 hours on the new one and 30 on the old? Conect? Vice Chairman Nolton: This is a tough one for me. It sounds as if you have a job right now and you want to grow and advance and generate more income. But you need an income right now in your life while you're trying to step out and start a new company. If you had the financial backing, you go just start the new company and not license two companies to build your business. It sounds as ifthat's what's going on here. Travis Bullock: Yes, and I also don't want to leave my current partner with no Qualifier and no source of income, too. Vice Chairman Nolton: I understand. Richard Joslin: Probably because ofall the years that you've known him and been together - right? Travis Bullock: Yeah - I've been working with him for over twenty years. Chairman Lantz: Any other questions or discussion from the Board? Patrick White: If I may, Mr. Chairman? Again, it's a circumstance to me where ['m evaluating the credibility of this Applicant and his specific answers to how he's anticipating two businesses operating - going forward - and knowing that if I vote to approve, I'm putting a degree oftrust in what has been said today with an understanding that - strictly from a government regulation perspective - there are 25 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 425 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) issues of potential abuse where there's not much in terms of enforcement other than a complaint from a customer. But I sit in this seat knowing that every time we consider a matter whether its for licensure or for discipline, there's got to be a balance ofwhat I call "equities and fundamental fairness." In this instance, to me, I intend to make a motion for approval. I understand the competing perspectives and I think that in this instance, I lean more toward what this gentleman has indicated are the parameters he's going to operate both businesses under and it seems to fit with what are the facts and the future. For me, I'm comfortable with that. There's a minimum of risk to a homeowner because he's not going to be "robbing Peter to pay Paul" - expected to be in too many places at the same time. I don't think that's going to happen. Chairman Lantz: So, do you want to make a motion? Patrick lVhite moved to approve the apPlication to qualify a Second Enlity by Travis Bullock. Terry Jerulle: Before anyone makes a Second - Travis are you aware of Southwest Tile has ever been fined by the County? Travis Bullock: I don't think it has. Terry Jerulle: Is Staffaware of any? Everildo Ybaceta: Not that I am aware of- no. Lilla Davis: I did some research and there are no complaints in the system. Patrick White: For Collier County? Lilla Davis: That's correct. Richard Joslin: It sounds to me as ifhe's well established in the business that he does with the man he's working for now. And I don't think he's going to get busy - I think he's going to do this on a slow basis because ofthe way he's talking, so I'm going to take him on principle and believe in what he says. Richard Joslin offered a Second in support oflhe molion. Chairman Lantz: Any discussion? I admire someone with a job who wants to do better. Chairman Lantz called for a vote on the motiou. Carried unanimously, 5 - 0. Chairman Lantz advised Mr. Bullock to contact the Licensing Office. RFI,CESSED at l0:35 AM RECONVENED at 10:45 AM Chairman Lantz called the meeting to order. 9. OLD BUSTNESS: (None) October 16, 2019 26 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 426 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 IO. PUBLIC HEARING: A. Case #2019 -: Collier County Board of County Commissioners, Plaintiff, vs, Michael J. Marchetti, Respondent, d/bla"Bonita Springs Plumbing & Gas, Inc.,," License Number CFC056830 and Collier County Registered Contractor (C23293) - Misconduct of State-Certified Contractor Chairman Lantz called Michael J. Marchetti to the podium, but he was not present. Patrick White asked if an agent was present to represent Mr. Marchetti but there was no response. Chairman Lantz outlined the process to be followed for the Public Hearing: l. This Hearing will be conducted pursuant to the procedures set forth in Collier County Ordinance #90-105, as amended, and Florida Statutes Chapter 49. 2. The Hearing is quasi-judicial in nature and the Formal Rules ofEvidence will not aPPlY. 3. Fundamental faimess and due process shall be observed and shall govern the proceeding. 4. lrrelevant, immaterial, or inconclusive evidence shall be excluded but all other evidence ofthe type commonly relied upon by reasonably prudent persons in the conduct of their affairs shall be admissible whether or not such evidence would be admissible in a trial in the Courts of Florida. 5. Hearsay evidence may be used for the purpose of supplementing or explaining any evidence but shall not be sufficient by itselfto support a Finding unless such hearsay would be admissible or objected to in civil actions in Court. 6. The Rules of Procedure shall be effective to the same extent that they would now be hereafter recognized in civil actions. 7. The general purpose of the proceeding is for the County to set out its Opening Statement which details its charges against the Respondent. 8. A Respondent may or may not make his/her Opening Statement sefting out in general terms the defenses to the charges. 9. The County then presents its Case in ChieJ callingwitnesses and presenting evidence. 10. The Respondent may cross-examine these witnesses. I l. Once the County has closed its Case in Chiel the Respondent may present his/her defense and may call witnesses, and do all the things described earlier, i.e., to call and examine witnesses, to introduce exhibits, to cross-examine witnesses and impeach any witness regardless of which party called the witness to testify, and to rebut any evidence presented against the party. 12. After the Respondent has presented his/her case, the County may present a rebuttal to the Respondent's presentation. 13. When the rebuttal is concluded, each pa(y may present its Closing Statement. 14. The County will have a further opportunity to rebut after the Respondent's Closing Statement. 15. The Board will then close the Public Hearing and will begin its deliberations. 27 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 427 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 I 6. Prior to the beginning of any deliberation, the Attorney for the Board will give the Charge which is similar to the Charge for a Jury, setting out the parameters upon which the Board may base its decision. 17. During deliberations, the Board can ask for additional information and clarification from the parties. I 8. The Board will then decide two different issues: a. First, whether the Respondent is guilty ofthe offenses as charged in the Administrative Complaint and a vote will be taken on that matter; b. lfthe Respondent has been found guilty, then the Board must decide upon the Sanctions to be imposed. The Board's attomey will advise the Board as to the Sanctions which may be imposed and the factors to be considered. The Board will discuss the Sanctions and take another vote. 19. After the two matters have been decided, the Chair (or in his/her absence, the Vice Chair) will read a Summary of the Order to be issued by the Board. The Summery will set forth a basic outline of the Order, but it may not be the same language in the Final Order. 20. The Final Order will include the full details that apply under state law. Chairman Lantz called for a motion to open the Public Hearing. Terry Jerulle moved to approve opening the Public Hearing in Case #2019 - 06: Collier Counly Board of County Commissioners, Plaintffi vs, Michael J. Msrchetti, Respondent, d/b/a "Bonita Springs Plumbing & Gas, Inc.," License Number CFC056830 and Collier County Registered Contractor (C23293) - Misconduct of State-Certified Conlractor. Richard Joslin offered a Second in support of the motion. Carried unanimously, 5 - 0. Pstrick White moved to introduce lhe County's information packet in Case #2019- 06 into evidence as County's Exhibit "A." Richard Joslin offered a Second in support of the motion. Carried unanimously,5 -0. Chairman Lantz asked if a representative was present on behalf of Mr. Marchetti. Everildo Ybaceta: There is none. Chairman Lantz asked ifthe Respondent had been given proper notice and asked Staff to provide details of said notice. Everildo Ybaceta: We published the Notice of Hearing in the Naples Daily News for four successive weeks after several attempts to obtain personal service by delivering the Notice via certified mail. Patrick White: And the mailed and personal service failed? Everildo Ybaceta: Yes, correct. Richard Joslin: Was it sent to the business address? Everildo Ybaceta: Yes, itwas. And we've also tried personal service atthe business address. Patrick White: I note, for the record, that the County has the green cards from the US Postal Service verifying that attempts were made to also serve the property owner. 28 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 428 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16. 2019 Everildo Ybaceta: One was sent to the owner ofthe property and one was sent to Mr. Marchefti. Chairman LanE: Mr. Schneck, please confirm that you happy with the effort made by the County. Attorney Schneck: Yes, I find that it was sufficient for notice. Michael P. Bogert, Collier County Contractor Licensing Compliance OfIicer, presented the County's Opening Statement: o The Respondent, Michael Marchetti, a State-certified Plumbing Contractor, is the holder of License Number COC-056830. o He is the Qualifier for and owner of Bonita Springs Plumbing & Gas, Inc. . Mr. Marchetti installed a plumbing drain hook-up for a bathtub change out at I155 Sandpiper Street, Unit D-4, a condominium, without first securing a permit. . Mr. Marchetti is in violation of Collier County Ordinance $2006-46, as amended, Section 4.2.2 - Misconduct ofa State-Certified Contractor which states: "Willfully violating the applicable Building Codes or laws of the State, city, or Collier County," and commencing work prior to the issuance ofa building permit in violation of State of Florida Building Code 105.1. . July 16, 2019: Received a written complaint from property owner, Hari K. Khalsa, I155 Sandpiper Street, Unit D-4, Naples, Florida, regarding an un- permitted plumbing drain hook-up for a bathtub change out in her condominium. Ms. Khalsa filed the complaint after receiving a Hearing Notice from Code Enforcement. . A Code Enforcement case was opened due to a complaint received in August 2018 when the bathtub remodel flooded the bottomJevel condo. . After some investigation, it was found that a contractor was involved, and the case was eventually referred to the Contractors' Licensing Office. o Compliance Office Joseph Nourse opened the case to investigate further and it was determined that a handyman, Jonathan Front, and Certified Plumber, Michael Marchetti, were involved in this job. o Mr. Front was issued a Citation for $2,000 for Unlicensed General Contracting (a second offense). . Ms. Khalsa contracted with Michael Marchetti of Bonita Springs Plumbing and Cas, Inc. on August 8, 2018 to perform the plumbing line hook-up for Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00). . Payment was made by personal check #1042 from Ms. Khalsa to Mr. Marchetti dated August 8, 201 8.. The bathtub changeout was completed without the application for or issuance of a permit. o Multiple attempts were made to contact Mr. Marchetti to apply for the permit, but no permit has been filed. . A Notice of Hearing was published on four times in the newspaper to publicly notiS him to the date and time.. The property owner is here today and would like to speak to the Board. 29 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 429 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16,2019 Patrick White: Has the Building Official been consulted regarding this matter? Michael Bogert: Yes - he was conferred with shortly after the Code Enforcement case was opened and it was deemed that a permit was necessary because it was commercial, i.e., the condominium. Patrick White: Did the Building Official express an opinion regarding the violation was willful? Michael Bogert: At that time, it was not deemed to be willful but after the contractor was informed that a permit was needed by Compliance Office Joseph Nourse, Mr. Marchetti repeatedly ignored the warnings that were provided in person, by telephone and via email. Chairman Lantz: And that's what made it "willful"? Michael Bogert: Yes. Patrick White: That's the County's position? Michael Bogert: Yes, sir. Patrick White: I just wanted that on the record. The Counly called Hari Khalsa, the properE owne\ lo testify as a wilness, Ms. Khalsa: Good morning. This has been going on for over a year. My name is Hari Khalsa and I live at ll55 Sandpiper Street in Apartment D-4. First, before I start, I'd like to tell you that I've had very positive experiences with that building with Rose, John Johnson, Mr. Ossorio, and Mr. Bogert. They have been very nice to me. First of all, there was never, ever a leak from the bathtub. My neighbor said that, and I don't know why. She had no business saying that and I can bring in the person who lives below me to tell you that there was no leak. But it brought us to where we are. Jonathan put in the bathtub - he's a handyman. He put it in, and he tiled around it. The new bathtub is slightly larger than the old bathtub that was removed - it'sjust a little bit wider and no pipes were moved in the process. Mr. Marchetti stood by the sink the entire time that Jonathan was working; he said at one point, "Well, maybe we should have gotten a permit." But that's how it was. I paid him $500 because he was the plumber, but Jonathan did the work. Patrick White: When you heard Mr. Marchetti say, "Maybe we should have gotten a permit," was it your understanding that he was saying was he knew that a permit was required and he should have gotten one OR maybe it needs a permit and maybe it doesn't? Ms. Khalsa: He did say at that time - if you ask the people who do this, they will say that it is not written an)ryvhere that you must have a permit to install a bathtub. He did say that. And I have asked plumbers (Aztec Plumbing and another company) and was told a permit was not required to install a bathtub. It tums out you do need a permit when it's a condo. I don't know anything about permits - I just know I have a bad back and I needed a deep bathtub - that's what I needed. Patrick White: Understood. So, to my question? Ms. Khalsa: No, I didn't think about it at all. Patrick White: No, I'm not inquiring as to what you thought, Ma'am. I'm inquiring only as to what you understoodhim to be saying. Did you understand him to be saying he believed a permit was required ...? Ms. Khalsa: No. He said maybe ... I didn't even think about it ... don't think he 30 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 430 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16. 2019 thought about it much. If he had thought that we needed a permit, I would assume that for $500 that he would have gotten a permit. Patrick White: Understood. This issue, in my mind, comes down to whether failing to get a permit was intentional or not. Ms. Khalsa: I don't know that. I don't know what's in his mind. I do know that everybody has done everything they can to find this man and he apparently had gotten a review recently to say something about his work - he's here. He's in Naples - he's in the area. And they've gone to four different places to try to find him and he just can't be found. So, I can tell you that he seems though he's not a reliable person. Patrick White: And as far as having a contract with him ... Ms. Khalsa: I didn't have a contract with him. Patrick White: ... you didn't have a written contract, I understand that. When you discussed the Scope of Work - the job he was going to do for you - was there any discussion about getting a permit or not? Ms, Khalsa: No. And I didn't ... Patrick White: What was your understanding about the permit? Ms. Khalsa: Jonathan was putting in the bathtub and this guy came because he's the plumber and you had to have a plumber because ofhis license. That's all. Chairman Lanfz: Who found him - you? Ms, Khalsa: No, Jonathan found him. Chairman Lantz: Who is he? Ms. Khalsa: Jonathan Front is a handyman who put in the bathtub and tiled around it - he took out the old one ... and Mike just stood there. Patrick White: Was he supervising the job? Ms. Khalsa: Theoretically. Patrick White: Okay. We're trying to ... Ms. Khalsa: Pin down ... Patrick White: ... the record, here. And from what I understand, you expected that if a permit was required, the licensed plumber would know that or not, and if one was required, he would have obtained it. Yes or no? Ms. Khalsa: Yes. Patrick White: Thank you, Ma'am. Michael Bogert: If I may add? Joe Nourse was the Compliance Officer and his notes, dated 0912012018, stated that he did contact Michael Marchefti who said he did the plumbing hook-up for the bathtub drain changeout. Mr. Marchetti also stated he contracted with the owner. When asked about the permitted, he stated it was not required. Ms. Khalsa: l'm sory - I missed something. Michael Bogert: Just that he also contracted with you for the $500 to do it. Ms. Khalsa: I paid him $500 but there was no contract that I know of. Patrick White: Ma'am, you had an oral contract with him. Ms. Khalsa: Okay. Chairman Lantz: So, this job - this is a multi-family low rise? Ms. Khalsa: lt's a two-story and ['m on the top. 3l 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 431 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) Chairman Lantz: And there's somebody undemeath? Michael Bogert: Yes. Chairman Lantz: So, all the plumbing connections are done either through the fire wall and there are some fire stopping issues, or they are done underneath, and they cut out the ceiling undemeath and there would probably still be some fire wall business - correct? Patrick White: Through the floor. Chairman Lantz: The fire wall being the floor separating the two units which would be a tin separation wall. Michael Bogert: I couldn't speak to that. When I spoke to the Chief Building Official, Mr. Walsh, he stated it was due to the plumbing hook-ups under the tub. l'm not familiar with the fire wall. Chairman Lantz: My question is: Could a plumber get a permit for a tub changeout in a commercial building knowing that the fire wall is going to be modified as a plumber or do you have to be a General Contractor or a Building Contractor to do that? Everildo Ybaceta: Based on the Scope of Work, a plumber would have been able to do it, yes. Chairman Lantz: Okay - you don't have to be a GC or a Building Contractor to pull that permit? Everildo Ybaceta: No. Since it was a single trade, a plumber could do it. Chairman Lantz: Okay. So, then would there be a fire stopping issues and would a plumber be allowed to do that or sub it out? Everildo Ybaceta: They would have been requested in the permit for those issues to have been done ... yes ... or corrected. Patrick White: There's the assumption that the connection is on her unit's side of the separation and it doesn't require modification where the fire-stopping or the piping would be. f,verildo Ybaceta: That would have been the Fire Review - for all commercial permits, a Fire Review is always done. Since this would have been a commercial permit, they would have reviewed it and stated something to that effect. Vice Chairman Nolton: There's a fine, distinct difference here. One is they know they're going to have to modify the floor - remove it - and they'll have to permit it that way and that's when you come into other trades. And ifyou'rejust changing out a tub and you put that there's no modifications to those connections, then the County would assume that no modifications were being done. But the County would expect, and would be able to see ifthere were, because it happens all the time where somebody does after the fact, and that's where the inspections come in. She would need just a plumber otherwise, Chairman Lantz: I've done la lot oftub changeouts. From my experience, I've never had one where I didn't have a slab repair inspection and a fire stop inspection. I mean, I'm not complaining that I had those inspections, but they wouldn't apply to a plumbing permit - they would apply to a Building or General Contractor permit. That's why I was asking - because as soon as I mentioned tub on my permit application, it's like - okay, slab repair - and all this other stuffpops up whether I planned on doing it or not. 32 October 16, 2019 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 432 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 Patrick llhite moved lo approve closing the Public Hearing. Terry Jerulle ollered a Second in support of lhe molion. Carried unanimously, 5 - 0, Patrick Llhite moved to approve finding the Contraclor, Michael Marchetli, guilty of the violations cited in the Administrative Complainl for Case Number 2019-06. Terrl Jerulle olfered a Second in supporl of the molion. 33 Terry Jerulle: It's all irrelevant in this case because the plumber was working without a permit either way. Chairman Lanfz: No, my question is: could a plumber get a permit for this work? Terry Jerulle: We don't know that - right? With the evidence that we have at this point, we don't know. Vice Chairman Nolton: Well, I've had experiences where I've seen they can get permits. Terry Jerulle: Without moving the drain. MichaelBogert: Correct. Terry Jerulle: If you replace one tub with the same another tub ... Chairman Lantz: With a wider tub that she ... Patrick White: The tub may have been wider, but it doesn't mean that the drain was moved. Terry Jerulle: I don't know that, and I don't know whether it's relevant. In my mind the plumber was working without a permit. Patrick White: And one was required. Terry Jerulle: And one was required. Patrick White: And he was told it was required. Terry Jerulle: We were told it was a willful violation by the Chief Building Officiat. Patrick White: But he refused to get it. Vice Chairman Nolton: Because I understand there was communication with the individual in the beginning and it just fell on deai ears. MichaelBogert: Correct. Vice Chairman Nolton: Is this individual still licensed with the State? Michael Bogert: He is. Vice Chairman Nolton: [s his business still operating? Michael Bogert: It is. Chairman Lantz: Now when I looked him up online, it showed all kinds of licenses. ls he the same guy who has an expired Building Contractor's License, an expired provisional Building Inspector's License - all those? Michael Bogert: I have not been able to determine that. When I first researched him, I did see similar names but based on addresses and other cross-referencing, I wasn't able to put the two together. Patrick White: Does the County have anything further? Michael Bogert: We do not. Chairman Lantz: Now we must determine if the Respondent is guilty or not guilty. 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 433 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 Chairman Lantz asked the members if there was any discussion but there was no response. Chairman Lanlz called for a vote on the motion. Corried unanimously, 5 - 0. Chairman Lantz noted the Board must decide upon any Sanctions to be imposed. He asked Mr. Schneck to advise the Board concerning the Sanctions which may be imposed and the factors to be considered. Attorney Schneck: For the penalty phase for a State-certified contractor, as in the Marchetti case, the Board is limited to denying, suspending, or revoking his permit- pulling privileges in Collier County or limiting his ability to pull permits under specific conditions. The second part ofthe penalty phase is the recommendation that the Board can sent to the State's Construction Industry Licensing Board ("CILB") for further action. Chairman Lantz: How many permits does this guy pull in a year in Collier County? Michael Bogert: He has not applied for any this year. I have only seen two final and one expired permit where he was the subcontractor. Chairman Lantz: While it looks good on paper, if we were to revoke his permit- pulling privileges, it wouldn't do anlthing. Michael Bogert: His license is currently inactive with Collier County due not updating the documentation for his permit pulling privileges. Terry Jerulle: So, he doesn't have a ... Michael Bogert: It's not an active Collier County license. Richard Joslin: How about his State license? Michael Bogert: That is still active. Patrick White: Per my understanding, if we do approve revoking his permit pulling privileges and any other Sanction, that will be refened to the State? Michael Bogert: Yes, sir. Richard Joslin: We can't do a whole lot to him, can we? Chairman Lantz: The worst scenario is that we revoke his permit-pulling privileges which isn't going to do much but once we make a recommendation to the State, there is a possibility that the State will look into it and possibly investigate further - correct? Everildo Ybaceta: That's correct. Also, perthe Code, if he is working in different counties, those counties could bring him up on charges based on what we do here today. Richard Joslin: How soon does the recommendation go to the State? Everildo Ybaceta: As soon as the Order is signed, I have fifteen days to send the Board's recommendation to the State. Richard Joslin: Will the State act on it immediately or does it have to go before the Construction Industry Licensing Board ("CILB")? Everildo Ybaceta: I can't comment on how the State conducts its investigations or their procedures. Chairman Lantz: Back in the day, we also were able to do public humiliation which, in my opinion, is the only way to get some people to change. We could issue a Press 34 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 434 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 Release or something to that effect notifying the public that the Contractor or his company have been sanctioned by the Board. Do we still have the power to do that? Patrick White: I don't know if we can impose it but there is nothing that I'm aware of that precludes the County from issuing a Press Release. Everildo Ybaceta: I believe it's still on the books thatthe Board can do that, yes. Ifthe Board votes to issue it, yes, the County can issue a public reprimand. Chairman Lantz: You call it a public reprimand and I call it public humiliation. I'd like to put him in front ofthe County and throw tomatoes at him but apparently that's not allowed either. An ad in the newspaper might not affect much of his business but that one random person who reads the paper or the person who googles his business website, might find it. Attorney Schneck: Mr. Chairman, according to the County's Ordinance, a public reprimand is only available for locally licensed contractors. You're right, there is no provision in the Florida Statutes which prohibits this, however, the general interpretation of Florida Statutes is that if it's not included, then it is prohibited unless there is some sort of ambiguity within the Statutes. In my opinion, there is no ambiguity. Florida Statutes is clear in its wording that the Board is limited to denying, suspending, or revoking a State-certified contractor's permit-pulling privileges in Collier County or limiting his ability to pull permits under specific conditions. The Board can send a recommendation to the State's Construction Industry Licensing Board ("CILB") for further action. Vice Chairman Nolton: Can the recommendation that the Board makes to the State Board include a request to impose a fine? Attorney Schenck: It can include a monetary penalty and possibly a public reprimand. Patrick White: Not to differ with your analysis and thank you for sharing that, but it may not be within the scope of our jurisdiction impose or order a public reprimand as a Sanction. But news is news and ifthis Board should choose to revoke the permit- pulling privileges and make a series of recommendations to the CILB, that is a matter within the discretion ofthe County to publish as news - as a press release. I don't know ifthe County will or won't, but I just want to make sure that we're clear - the Board can't but there's nothing that says news can't be published. We, the Board, cannot. What ['m saying is the County may choose to -just like you or I, the County has First Amendment rights as well. Chairman Lantz: Does anyone want to make a motion for the Sanctions? Vice Chairman Mallhew Nolton moved to approve immediately revoking Michoel Marchetti's permil-pulling privileges in Collier County, and also sending a recommendation lo the State's Conslruction Industry Licensing Board requesling thal lhe CILB: (l) suspend Michael Marchetli's license for the maximum amount of lime ollowed by law, (2) revoke his permil-pulling privileges b,ith the State during his license suspension, and (3) impose a Jive thousand dollar (55,000) fine. Palrick lYhile offered a Second in support of the motion. Patrick White: Under what circumstances could we recommend that could lift the suspension? 35 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 435 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) October 16, 2019 Vice Chairman Nolton: I don't know that it's up to this Board - it's up to the State There would be a hearing and he would come before them to work that out ln my motion, I didn't include that part of it. Patrick White requested that Mr. Nolton amend his motion to include suspending Mr. Marchetti's license for the maximum amount of time allowed by law. Vice Chairman Nolton agreed with Mr. White's suggestion. Chairman Lantz asked the members if there was any discussion but there was no response. Chairman Lantx, called for a vole on the molion. Corried unanimously' 5 - 0. Chairman Lanfz stated: o This cause came for a Public Hearing before the Contractors' Licensing Board on October 16,2019 for consideration of the Administrative Complaint filed against Michael J. Moretti, Respondent, dlbla Bonita Springs Plumbing & Ga\ Inc. o Service ofthe complaint was made by certified mail, personal delivery, or publication in accordance with Collier County Ordinance #90-105, as amended. o The Board having heard testimony under oath, received evidence, and heard arguments respective to all pertinent matters hereupon issues its Findings of Facts, Conclusions of Law and Order ofthe Board as follows: Conclusions of Law, Findings of Fact' and Orders of the Board: . Michael J. Moretti, d/bla Bonita Springs Plumbing & Gas, Inc., is the holder of record of a Collier County Registered License Number C23293. . Mr. Moretti is also a State-certified Plumbing Contractor and holder of License Number CFC056830. o The Collier County Board of County Commissioners is the Petitioner in this matter and Michael J. Moretti is the Respondent. o The Respondent was not present at the October 16,202019 Public Hearing and was not represented by counsel. o All notices required by Collier County Ordinance #90-105, as amended, have been properly issued or personally delivered. o The Respondent acted in a matter that is in violation of Collier County Ordinance and is the one who committed the act. . The allegation set forth in the Administrative Complaint as to Collier County Ordinance #2006-46, as amended, Section 4.2.2 - Misconduct ofState Certified Contractor states: "ltillfully violating the applicable Building Codes or low of the State, City, or Collier County." o The allegation was supported by the evidence presented at the Hearing. 36 Conclusions of Law: r The allegations set forth in the Administrative Complaint as to Count One is approved, adopted, and incorporated herein, to wit: 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 436 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) o October 16, 2019 The Respondent violated Ordinance #2006-46, as amended, Section 4.2.2 in Count One in the performance of his contracting business in Collier County by acting in violation ofthe Section set out in the Administrative Complaint with particularity. Orders of the Board: o Based upon the foregoing Findings of Fact and Conclusions ofLaw, and pursuant to the authority granted in Florida Statutes, Chapter 49, and Collier County Ordinance #90-105, as amended, by a vote of five (5) in favor and zero (0) opposed, a majority vote ofthe Board members present, the related Sanctions and following Order are hereby imposed upon the holder of State License Number CFC056830, as follows: o The Respondent's permit pulling and inspection pulling privileges in Collier County are revoked; o The County is authorized to send a letter to the State's Construction Industry Licensing Board ("CILB") recommending: (l) suspension Michael Marchetti's license for the maximum amount of time allowed by law, (2) revocation of his permit-pulling privileges with the State during his license suspension, and (3) the imposition of a five thousand dotlar ($5,000) fine. Chairman Lantz: The hearing is concluded. Patrick White stated he would not be able to attend the December lSth Board Meeting and requested to be excused. Nnxr Mrnr ING DATE:WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 18, 2019 BCC Chambers, 3'd Floor - Administrative Buitding "F, Government Complex, 3301 E. Tamiami Trail, Naples, FL There being no further business for the good ofthe County, the meeting was adjourned at 11:19 AM by order of the Chairman. 3'7 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 437 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019) The Minutes were on T)<rr,n [ref approved by thern .20 l/th - V KYLE E. LANTZ,ChafVman Chairman or Vice Chairman of the Contractors' Licensing Board 19, (Check one) "as submitted" l4 o, "as amended' Ll October 16, 2019 COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD 38 12.A.3 Packet Pg. 438 Attachment: 20191016_Signed_CLB_Minutes (11241 : Contractor Licensing Board - December 18, 2019)