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CLB Minutes 09/18/2019 September 18,2019 MINUTES OF THE COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD September 18, 2019 Naples, Florida LET IT BE REMEMBERED that the Collier County Contractors' Licensing Board, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 AM in REGULAR SESSION in Administrative Building "F," 3rd Floor, Collier County Government Complex, Naples, Florida, with the following Members present: Chairman: Kyle E. Lantz Members: Michael E. Boyd Terry Jerulle Richard E. Joslin Robert P. Meister Excused: Matthew Nolton, Vice Chair Patrick G. White ALSO PRESENT: Everildo Ybaceta— Supervisor, Contractors' Licensing Office Lilla Davis — Administrative Supervisor, Contractors' Licensing Office Kevin Noell, Esq. — Assistant Collier County Attorney Jed Schneck, Esq. —Attorney for the Contractors' Licensing Board 1 September 18,2019 Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this Board will need a record of the proceedings and may need to ensure that a verbatim record of said proceedings is made, which record includes the testimony and evidence upon which any Appeal is to be made. 1. ROLL CALL: Chairman Kyle E. Lantz opened the meeting at 9:05 AM and read the procedures to be followed to appeal a decision of the Board. Roll Call was taken; a quorum was established; five (5) voting members were present. 2. AGENDA- ADDITIONS, CHANGES, OR DELETIONS: Addition: Everildo Ybaceta, Contractors' Licensing Office Supervisor, requested to add the following topic under Item 6, "Discussion:" • Clarification of the 10% Ownership Rule 3. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Michael Boyd moved to approve the Agenda as amended. Richard Joslin offered a Second in support of the motion. Carried unanimously, 5— 0. 4. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: JULY 17,2019 Richard Joslin moved to approve the Minutes of the July 17, 2019 Meeting as submitted. Terry Jerulle offered a Second in support of the motion. Carried unanimously, 5—0. 5. PUBLIC COMMENT: (None) 6. DISCUSSION: (AS AMENDED) A. Clarification of the 10% Ownership Rule Everildo Ybaceta stated in the past there has been some confusion regarding the Ten Percent Ownership Rule as it relates to Contractors applying to qualify a Second Entity. He researched the County's Ordinance references insurance coverage: "All licensed Contractors shall maintain applicable Workers' Compensation Insurance as required by Florida law and federal law." 2 September 18,2019 Mr.Ybaceta explained that the 10% Ownership Rule does not apply to licensing. It is part of the requirements when an officer of a company or corporation applies for an exemption. The Rule does not apply when a Contractor is requesting to qualify a Second Entity in a capacity other than as an officer, i.e., as an employee of the Second Entity. It applies only when an officer of a company or corporation is applying for a Workers' Compensation exemption. Terry Jerulle stated the Rule must also apply to licensing because if a Contractor does not own ten percent of his company, he cannot obtain Workers' Compensation insurance and without the insurance coverage, the individual cannot qualify for a license or apply for an exemption. Everildo Ybaceta: Let's say the Contractor is a State-certified Contractor who lives in Tallahassee but wants to qualify a Second Entity in Collier County. He is basically not an"active" Qualifier as this Board recommends because he would not be able to inspect the local job sites. The Qualifier is not required to have ownership in the company or in the LLC, but he must be covered under Workers' Comp in some capacity—that is correct. Terry Jerulle: But he cannot claim an exemption if he doesn't own ... Everildo Ybaceta: Exactly—yes. That is correct. Terry Jerulle: If he can't claim an exemption, then how does he get a license? Everildo Ybaceta: He would be under Workers' Comp ... Chairman Lantz (directed his response to Mr. Jerulle): If you hired me to qualify your company—you own your company but wanted to add me as your Electrical Qualifier—so you'd put me on your payroll and I would get a paycheck just like all your other employees get and the paycheck would give me Workers' Comp. Terry Jerulle: But you couldn't be exempt ... Chairman Lantz: I couldn't be exempt but ... Terry Jerulle: ... but that's my point ... if you're clarifying the exemption status versus the 10% Rule—you can't have it both ways. Everildo Ybaceta: No,you can't have an exemption without the 10%Rule—that's correct. Chairman Lantz: The State verifies that. If someone applies— and its been a while since I've done it—but you had to show—you had to give them stock shares or show that you were a 10% owner and I think you had to be an officer ... Terry Jerulle: The State does that and not the County? Everildo Ybaceta: We do ... we do a review of it and we follow the State. So, if you are an officer in the Division of Corporations and you supply paperwork as such, and you're applying here, we do check the Division of Corporations—we check who the officers are and if they apply for the exemptions during that time ... they show us the exemptions and we verify that with the paper ... Terry Jerulle: So, when they come before us—we don't have to worry about that? Everildo Ybaceta: No. 3 September 18,2019 Terry Jerulle: So, either they legally have the exemption, or they have Workers' Compensation? Everildo Ybaceta: Correct. They do have to be covered in some capacity. Richard Joslin stated he didn't think he would want to be part of a company that he did not license. He stated a Contractor would be putting his/her entire livelihood on the line with no ownership interest. Chairman Lantz: For the right fee, there's a big market out there for that. Richard Joslin: Sounds to me like they're selling the license with no benefits. Okay. Everildo Ybaceta: That information is also available at"my Florida license"under the Construction Industry Requirements and Eligibility—they do have it specified and I can give you copies of it before you leave, if you wish. Under the application eligibility for corporations or LLCs, in the liability section for both, it states the same thing: "Applicants must attest that they have a minimum of ten percent ownership ..." in order to qualify for the Workers' Compensation exemption. Chairman Lantz: And that same rule applies to the State license—correct? Everildo Ybaceta: Yes. Chairman Lantz: A contractor does not have to be a 10% owner—right? Everildo Ybaceta: Correct. Richard Joslin: I am still not totally understanding that ... but did you check with the State on this? Everildo Ybaceta: Yes, this is from the State. Richard Joslin: Okay—you spoke with somebody there? Everildo Ybaceta: Yes, we have spoken to staff members at Workers' Compensation. We asked specifically about these questions because I also had a contractor who I was dealing with who had some issues with his Workers' Comp exemption and we had to clarify that. So, it worked out for both cases. Chairman Lantz asked if the Board had any other questions concerning the 10%rule or the Workers' Compensation exemption—there were none. 7. REPORTS: (None) 8. NEW BUSINESS: A. Orders of the Board: Richard Joslin moved to approve authorizing the Chairman to sign the Orders of the Board. Terry Jerulle offered a Second in support of the motion. Carried unanimously, 5—0. 4 September 18,2019 (Note: The individuals who testified in the following cases under Item 8, "New Business,"were first sworn in by the Attorney for the Board.) B. Davis Wainscott: Application for Reinstatement of License and Request to Waive Exam(s) (d/b/a"Naples Building Group") Everildo Ybaceta requested to table hearing this case until the next Board meeting. Chairman Lantz agreed to continue the case until the October meeting. C. Larry Bruellman: Application for Reinstatement of License; Request to Waive Exam(s) and Change of Business Name (Current Name: d/b/a"Leave It to Larry, LLC." Proposed Name: d/b/a"American Pool & Fountain, LLC.") Lilla Davis, Administrative Supervisor,provided background information: • The Applicant applied to reinstate his Swimming Pool Maintenance and Repair Contractor's License; • His license had been cancelled in 2012 because it was not renewed; • The Applicant has requested to apply the results of the exams he took in 2007 and 2010 to his renewal application' • If the application is approved, his license status will change from"dormant" to "active," and • The Applicant's registration with the State's Department of Business and Professional Regulation("DBPA") is current. Richard Joslin: His license is dormant? It was placed into dormancy—is that what it is? Lilla Davis: Yes -- correct. It's currently dormant and will be going to active. Chairman Lantz questioned the Applicant: Q. And how long have you been dormant? A. Was it five years, I think. And I didn't realize, I guess, that after two years, it does go where you either take the exam or come before the Board. Q. Okay. And how long have you been licensed? A. Oh, boy—it was probably ... it's been about twelve years go. I had a pool business with thirteen employees. I had a partner,but we decided to split ways and I had my own pool company for a while. And then I was farming with my son and it got to be a little too much. We had a place up north and we were farming that. Now he's going to take the farm over. We sold our place here, but we're here more. I started getting requests from people wanting me to do their pools and stuff... so ... 5 September 18,2019 Q. What do you do with your license? Are you the guy who comes out and cleans the pools and cleans the filters and get chemicals, or do you do repairs? A. Light repairs—like, replace a motor or filter ... that kind of stuff. Q. And that's typically for the customers that you are already servicing? A. Yeah, and I don't have ... I just have people who request that I do it ... since I don't have a license, I don't do it yet but once I get my license and insurance, then they want me to proceed to ... a lot of the people I have known in the past want me to come back and do that. Since I'm not here all the time, it's kind of I decided to do rather than another job. Q. But that's what you did in the past ...? A. Yes ... Q. ... you cleaned people's pools and if something broke on the pool, that ... A. Absolutely. Q. ... you're already there every week or whatever? A. Right ... timers, pumps, filters—if anything needed to be repaired ... yep. Q. Okay. Chairman Lantz: I have a question and I don't know who the person is to answer it. In the application, it states that he's working on a Swimming Pool - Class C License with maintenance and repair, but it also says he had a State license as a Registered Swimming Pool/Spa Contractor—is that the same thing? Everildo Ybaceta: No, and I apologize for that. Chairman Lantz: That's okay. So, he's applying for a Swimming Pool Maintenance and Repair Class C License? Everildo Ybaceta: Correct. Chairman Lantz: Farther down, in the packet, it showed that he had a Registered Pool/Spa Contractor's License—is that the same thing? Richard Joslin: In 2012? Larry Bruellman: The way I understand it—it's a County license that is registered with the State. Richard Joslin: Correct. Chairman Lantz: Is a Pool/Spa Contractor the same thing as a Class C—Maintenance and Repair? Richard Joslin: A lot changed I believe. I'm not exactly sure—I'm not 100% positive on that but there used to be three classifications: a Commercial—"A" License, a Residential—"B"License, and a"C"License .... Everildo Ybaceta: Right. Richard Joslin: ... which, I think, was service and repair only. Everildo Ybaceta: Right—isn't that a"C" License? Richard Joslin: They changed the nomenclature a couple of years ago, I believe, when they made it a"Specialty"—Pool/Spa Maintenance and Service Contractor's License. Do you have any employees? Larry Bruellman: Yeah, we had thirteen employees. Richard Joslin: I mean now. Larry Bruellman: No, not now, nope. 6 September 18,2019 Richard Joslin: If you're not here all the time, how are you going to take care of the pools? Larry Bruellman: Oh, I have a guy who has a pool business and he's licensed now and would take care of it. But I don't—like ... when we leave, we don't leave for more than a week at a time. If something needs be done, I'll fly back but I don't plan to be gone for an extended time ... that I can take care of it. It's "Murphy's Law"—if you leave, something will happen. But I guess ... the people are pretty understanding, you know ... this is the only house we have, so we're not ... and we might go up and see the grandkids for a weekend and ... Richard Joslin: Since 2012, have you done anything in the pool business at all? Larry Bruellman: For friends and stuff, you know. Richard Joslin: In Collier County? Larry Bruellman: No, not yet. Richard Joslin: Are you familiar with Continuing Education? Larry Bruellman: Yes. Richard Joslin: Have you taken any classes? Larry Bruellman: I have taken some online. I actually ... I mean, if I can't the County one, I'd probably go take the State test and do that, but—yeah—I've taken some Continuing Ed online for the pool. Richard Joslin: The reason why I'm asking these questions is, since 2012—and I'm a Pool Contractor also—there have been a lot of Code changes and a lot of laws have changed—a lot of different types of pumps that they're using now are using controls —are you familiar with any of those? Larry Bruellman: Oh, yeah, I think I'm familiar with about everything out there. Umm ... I guess you have the restrictions on where to put stuff... but I usually ... what I do is replace what's there. I'm not a builder to put new stuff in—but replace stuff that is existing already with a similar type of horsepower, you know, or timer or whatever. Terry Jerulle: So, the question that I always ask is not just take the test and not have to wait for the Board's review? Larry Bruellman: To be honest, I thought that this might be a little less time- consuming. I do have the books if I need to take the test, you know, but ... Terry Jerulle: I see ... I'm not the person who likes to give exemptions. If I had to take the test and all subcontractors who work for me had to take the test, so why shouldn't you? Larry Bruellman: Well, I guess ... in the past, I took the test. Terry Jerulle: Yes,but not in the last five years. Larry Bruellman: Right ... exactly. Yeah, I did Continuing Ed but not the proficiency test. Richard Joslin: When did you take the test? Larry Bruellman: Oh, I'd have to look back to when that was ... it would probably be about ten years ago, I would guess. Chairman Lantz: He was licensed in 2010 so I would assume he ... Larry Bruellman: Okay ... yeah. (Note: Per the application, the Business Procedures test was taken on 12/02/2006, 7 September 18,2019 and again on 01/06/2007. The Pool Maintenance &Repair ("C") test was taken on 02/22/2010.) Larry Bruellman: That's nine years ago, right ... yep. Richard Joslin: I just have ... this license allows you to do commercial work, too— you know? Larry Bruellman: Right ... yep. Richard Joslin: Do you do any commercial pools? Larry Bruellman: Yeah, I have. And, of course, you get your insurance and stuff for that ... you can't be licensed without insurance. In the past, even when I had my pool company and did pools on my own, I never had any complaints ... never had anything that I had to [file a] claim for insurance. So, I guess I have a pretty good track record. Richard Joslin: I'm not really referring to insurance. I'm referring more to knowledge ... Larry Bruellman: Yes. Richard Joslin: ... and in today's world it's a lot different ... Larry Bruellman: They are ... and I'm not above ... if I don't know the answer, I'll find it out from, you know, somebody ... but I'm thoroughly confident that I know what I should do and what I shouldn't do. Terry Jerulle: Do you have any contracts ... any people under contract right now? Larry Bruellman: No. Terry Jerulle: So then, you're in no rush to get this today? You could go and take the test? Larry Bruellman: I could. The only thing is ... I have one person who said whenever I get my license, they want me back. Terry Jerulle: Well, if it's this week or next week—I just ... especially now when we've found out that this [license allows] commercial ... I don't see any reason not to have people to take the test since it is a requirement for most of us. I don't like giving exemptions. If it was three years ago ... maybe I'd feel differently but with this time frame and, as Mr. Joslin said, a lot of the Codes and rules have changed. So, I think you should take the test. I think it would be better for you and your clients if you did. That's my opinion. Richard Joslin: Just one more thing ... taking the test would update you on today's rules and laws and how things have changed ... there's been a serious change in pools here in the past two or three years, and it keeps changing. I think it would be beneficial for you to do that. Chairman Lantz: Well, let me just ... go ahead. Larry Bruellman: On the flip side of that, I don't get into, like,the new construction and new rules for that because I'm not a pool builder and I don't want to do that kind of stuff. Richard Joslin: I understand ... but a few minutes ago you said you just replace what's there—correct? Larry Bruellman: (nodded affirmatively) Richard Joslin: Well, unfortunately, all three-horsepower pumps aren't the same. 8 ----- -- --- ------- September 18,2019 Larry Bruellman: Right. Richard Joslin: And somebody will sell you a three-horsepower pump that's not the same as what is on that pool. Larry Bruellman: I understand that. Richard Joslin: The flow rate might be different, or the volume might be different ... Larry Bruellman: Absolutely. Richard Joslin: ... and unless you have someone knowledgeable who knows what to ask for ... and those suppliers will sell you whatever you ask for ... and they might not be the same and it will be your responsibility to know which unit to use to give the pool to flow rate it needs in order to keep the pool open ... if you get my meaning. Larry Bruellman: I do. There are variable rate pumps now—there's a whole new different platform type of... Richard Joslin: Right. And the commercial aspects can get very large in today's world ... and in Naples especially ... the pools are getting huge and they require large pumps. Larry Bruellman: Yes. Richard Joslin: I'd like you to be familiar with that before I say that you're capable of being able to take care of not only residential—which is fairly simple—but also as far as the commercial aspect. But that's just my opinion. Chairman Lantz: But what you do want your business to be? Do you want it to just be—do you want to grow it into ten or twelve employees again or do you want it ... Larry Bruellman: No. Chairman Lantz: ... something to do to supplement your income while you're semi- retired? Larry Bruellman: Yeah, really ... no, it's just going to be myself. I'm not going to grow it into employees and stuff. You know, as I said, I've got a few people who want me to take care of stuff and it's not going to be a big company ...just something to supplement my income. Terry Jerulle: Well, what difference does that make? In a year from now—who knows what will happen with the economy—if he loses his 401-k or his investments, he may have to grow it. A license is a license—we can't restrict him on how big he wants to get—that's his choice. I just—I'm not trying to convince anybody else ... I was hoping that you would convince me otherwise, but I still think that you should take the test. Larry Bruellman: No, I understand that. Terry Jerulle: I hope there's no hard feelings—I have nothing against you ... I mean, your credit rating is good ... you sound like you probably would easily pass the test and never have to come back and see us again. Larry Bruellman: Right. But to answer your question on that—I'm not going to build my company ... Terry Jerulle: It doesn't matter ... that's your right ... once you get a license,you can do whatever you ... Larry Bruellman: Oh, I know that ... Terry Jerulle: ... can get as large as want, so ... Larry Bruellman: ... but I'm too old for those headaches. I had thirteen employees and it was a lot of headaches. I would say, no. I always kind of prided myself on 9 September 18,2019 doing it because I knew I could do it right rather than overseeing employees. Richard Joslin: But the almighty dollar changes that, you know ... Larry Bruellman: Oh, I do ... I do. Richard Joslin: ... because your clients and friends have a lot of friends. Terry Jerulle: Do you pull any permits? Is there anything that you would do that would require a permit? Richard Joslin: If he does a renovation on a commercial pool—yes. Terry Jerulle: And he could do the renovation? Richard Joslin: Yes. Terry Jerulle: Oh—that's even ... and I'm sorry ... I'm not sorry I asked ... but that's even another reason for you to take the test. I didn't know ... from here, I'm just looking at the Scope of Work that you could do under your license and I should have known that you would need a permit ... so ... Everildo Ybaceta: Any work on a commercial pool would require a permit. Richard Joslin: And engineered plans. Chairman Lantz (directed his question to Mr. Joslin): So, if he changes a pump on a residential pool, he doesn't need a permit ... but if he does the same work on a commercial pool, he does? Richard Joslin: Yes. In a sense,what he's doing is submitting that particular model —the pump that will be installed—to the State of Florida's Health Department. Everildo Ybaceta: That is correct. Richard Joslin: And then they will authorize ... or they will grant ... whatever is to be installed but they have to have knowledge of it. That's why I mentioned before that a 3-horsepower pump is not always the same pump—it has to be scoped out and that knowledge is something you would learn in going through a class. I think it's important in today's work ... with the number of children who are getting hurt in pools ... and the bad mouthing that pools are getting ... I think it would behoove you to do that. That was my thought. Larry Bruellman: Okay. Chairman Lantz asked the members if they had any other questions or comments. Richard Joslin: I will just add that with this particular application, if we deny it— then he will have to take the test anyway ... or he could ask to table it and come back another time after he takes the test ... or maybe not have to come back at all. Chairman Lantz: If he passes the test, he will not have to come back. If he passes the test tomorrow, he can get his license. Richard Joslin: Right. Terry Jerulle: If you had pressing contracts that you had to take care of, I was thinking we could give you a conditional license—you could have a license now but you'd have to take the test within so many months. If you don't have any pressing issues, it would be better if you would just take the test. Larry Bruellman: The only pressing issue is a gal who wants me to come on ... they have a company taking care of their pool, but they said they are having so many problems and they are limping along until I can get there. If I took the test, I'd take the State test. To be honest with you, I have the books—I paid $2,000 for the State 10 September 18,2019 books ... I have all that stuff and, like you say, it's good information to have. So, I always have it there if I need—for whatever I need to find out—whatever I need to know. But if you guys aren't comfortable, I understand that. I mean ... I guess ... the best situation is if I could get a temporary license until I pass the test and I'll take the State test. And then, basically, I will have a State license. And they told me that's probably easier anyway ... a State license over a County license. Richard Joslin: The State test is pretty hard ... I mean, it's not simple. Larry Bruellman: Oh, I know that—it's a huge stack of books that you get ... but you've got to go through the financial and you've got to go through all the different aspects of... Richard Joslin: As well as the technical. Larry Bruellman: ... as well as the technical. Richard Joslin: Study good because there's been lots of changes. Larry Bruellman: Oh, yeah, I know. I mean, most of the stuff is the same but there are changes ... the only advantage is that it is an open book test. So, if you're familiar with the book, you get to take it in when you take the test. Richard Joslin: I think if you told me you were only going to do residential pools— I probably would have gone along with it. But when you get into the commercial aspects,that's when ... Larry Bruellman: Oh, I understand that ... Richard Joslin: ... but there's money in commercial work. Larry Bruellman: Yep, yep. In the past, we did about half commercial work and half residential when we had a pool company. Richard Joslin moved to deny Larry Bruellman's application he takes the test. Terry Jerulle offered a Second in support of the motion. Motion carried, 4— "Yes"/l — "No." Chairman Lantz was opposed. Larry Bruellman: Is there probably no change of getting a two-month extension period—like you talked earlier—until I get the test taken? If that's not an option,you know, I guess I'll tell them that I'm not available. Comment: He could take the County's test tomorrow. Everildo Ybaceta: If he makes an application today, he could take the test in twenty-four hours. Terry Jerulle: You could take the County's test right away. Richard Joslin: By Friday, you could be licensed. Everildo Ybaceta: It will depend on him and the nearest place where it is scheduled. Larry Bruellman: Is there one in Fort Myers or do I have to go further than that? Everildo Ybaceta: I'm not sure—I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with where they have the exams ... I know they have them all over ... some of them are in Fort Myers and some of them are in Tallahassee. Larry Bruellman: Okay. Everildo Ybaceta: Yes, it is do-able ... theoretically, you could ... either Friday or Monday. It all depends on you. 11 September 18,2019 Larry Bruellman: Yeah, okay ... alright. Thanks. Chairman Lantz: Good luck. 9. OLD BUSINESS: (None) 10. PUBLIC HEARING: (None) NEXT MEETING DATE: WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 16,2019 BCC Chambers, 3rd Floor—Administrative Building "F, Government Complex, 3301 E. Tamiami Trail, Naples, FL There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chairman at 9:35 AM. COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD `7 L r KYLE E. LANTZ, Chairman The Minutes were approved by the Chairman or Vice Chairman of the Contractors' Licensing Board on ,2019, "as submitted" [ 1 - OR - "as amended" [ 1 12