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CLB Minutes 05/17/2006 R May 17,2006 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida, May 17, 2006 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Contractors' Licensing Board in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m., in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson William Lewis Sydney Blum Ann Keller Richard Joslin Lee Horn Eric Guite ALSO PRESENT: Michael Ossorio Tom Bartoe Patrick Neale, Esq. Robert Zachary, Esq. Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: MAY 17, 2006 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: APRIL 19,2006 V. DISCUSSION: VI. NEW BUSINESS: Michael J. Varney Request to qualify a 2nd entity. Workshop (if time permits) on amendments to Ordinance 2002-21. VII. OLD BUSINESS: VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS: Case # 2006-07 Collier County vs Paul Bowersox D/B/A Trojan Pools, Inc. Case # 2006-08 Collier County vs Paul Bowersox D/B/A Trojan Pools, Inc. IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: Wednesday July 19, 2006 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County Contractors' Licensing Board on May 17th, 2006. Anybody that would like to appeal a decision of this board will need a verbatim record which is being taken. I'd like to start with the roll call to my right. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: William Lewis. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Sid Blum. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Ann Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. COMMISSIONER HORN: Lee Horn. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Michael Boyd. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Eric Guite. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning, everyone. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Good morning. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Good morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe, any additions or deletions? MR. BARTOE: Good morning, board members, Mr. Chairman. For the record, I'm Tom Bartoe, Collier County Licensing Compliance Officer. Staff has one addition that I do not see the gentleman here, but he was in our office bright and early this morning. I think you might want to put him under discussion. His name is Tim Payne, P-a-y-n-e, requesting a restricted license, and I believe Mr. Ossorio will be here later and we'll be able to explain more. Under the workshop amendments to our 2002 ordinance, we do have with us this morning Mr. Jay Bowermeister, president of Gainesville Independent Testing Services. I believe he'll want to talk to you about a new test for the tree trimming license. Page 2 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Is that it? MR. BARTOE: And staff has no other additions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have one addition I'll bring up in discussion, occupational licenses changes that just got voted through. Anybody else have anything? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I have one also for the last month I mentioned about this pool industry license for the subcontractor license. I've brought some information to the board to look at. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anybody else? Do I hear approval of the agenda as amended. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So moved. Blum. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Second. Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? Aye. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Also need approval of last month's minutes if you all have had time to review those. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So moved. Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Second. Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? Aye. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. Page 3 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. We got all that out of the work. Mr. Payne is not here yet. I have wonderful news. Remember that we have fought all our lives with occupational licenses and the fact that people show homeowners occupational licenses. Let me read this to you. The legislature is changing the name of the occupational license to local business tax, and what you will receive as a receipt is a business tax receipt. It was a bill that was introduced by Joyce Kuzak of Deland, and the House bill and the Senate bill was AL Lawson from Tallahassee. It did make it through all committees. It was passed by both -- by the entire legislature. It's now on Governor Bush's desk to be signed because they just finished up the legislative calendar last week, and he is going to sign it, being that Governor Bush is a general contractor and a developer for Miami. He is aware of it. So, I have this, Michael and Tom, if you all want to pass it on. It's got the bill numbers and everything. I did confirm yesterday that it did pass. It is going to go into effect and it's supposedly going into effect July 1. So, I know we're getting ready to send out letters on renewal of all of these and we will not use the words occupational license any longer. MR. BAR TOE: I believe I can speak for the entire department when I'm glad to hear that. And you can't believe how many times we hear out in the field, well, he showed me a license, and it's not a license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, he will show them a business tax receipt and that's what will be printed on the receipts. So, I'll leave this up here for you. You might want to make the Page 4 May 17,2006 staff -- MR. BARTOE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- aware of that. MR. OSSORIO: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. F or the record, Michael Ossorio, Collier County Contractor Licensing. Two things: One, sorry I'm late. Traffic was terrible. Two, is that the clothe which is we belong to, the licensing certification board, we actually pushed this. We've been doing this for two years, trying to push this through the -- up there in Tallahassee and it finally paid off. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Exactly. And every -- every county has been trying to get this changed. It's a problem statewide. So, I couldn't be any happier. You wanted to say something about the pool license? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Real quick. I had the executive chairman for the Florida SPON Pool Institute fax me over a -- a -- let's see. It's about a 17 -page transmittal on pool licenses and have been approved by CLIB, which involve five different categories. And, I'm sorry. Seven different categories. And I didn't have time to make copies of this. This came in last night or though I would have. But those licenses are a swimming pool specialty subcontractor categories. It's seven subcontractor licensing categories, which one includes layout, structural, excavation, trim, decking, piping and finishes. So, these are independent little, so to speak, occupational licenses that will be -- I've already been approved through the Contractor Licensing Board in Tallahassee. So, just so you're aware of this. These are only to be used by a licensed pool contractor, either a residential or a commercial Page 5 May 17,2006 contractor. They cannot use these licenses for any other reason except to do this particular type of work that they are licensed for, for individual contractors. They cannot go to homeowners, they cannot go to general contractors. There are severe tests -- testing's right now that are coming out. They haven't got the testing's all put together yet, so right now it's in effect, but it really hasn't -- no one has the license as of yet because there's testing requirements that we have to go through. There's proctors that are going to give the test. It's pretty involved, so I'd be more than willing to leave this here and we can make copies of it or something. That way the board members can all see what's on it. And then probably staff may want to use it, too, because this has been -- it's been approved. So, I don't know what we're going to do about it or how we're going to handle it, but I just wanted you to know. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. -- Mr. Joslin? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. MR. OSSORIO: What we'll probably do, we'll get -- we'll take that information and we'll -- we'll proceed to the Fort Myers office through DPR. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: And there is a new person in charge there. I think he's out of Miami. And we're going to sit down in our office, have a workshop and find out what this actually means to us and how it affects our local board and how we're going to conduct business. And then, hopefully, in the next coming meetings; July or June -- I mean, June, July or August we'll have something for you. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: Maybe he'll come to the meeting, tell you what happened, tell you what's going to be going on and how it's going to be restricted or unrestricted, and we'll come up with something for Page 6 May 17,2006 you. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: That's perfect. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? MR. NEALE: Just one point on that. Mike -- Mr. Ossorio, when you check with him, could you see if that could become a locally enforced license, specialty license, because since we're going through an ordinance amendment cycle, if it -- if it will be, then we could add it to our ordinance amendments. MR. OSSORIO: I will. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Payne still isn't here. We'll come back ifhe shows up. New business. Michael Varney, are you present? I'll have you come to this podium, sir. If you would, state your name, and I'll have the reporter -- MR. VARNEY: Michael Varney. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll have the reporter -- recorder swear you In. (Michael Varney was placed under oath.) MR. VARNEY: I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: As we're looking through your packet here, tell us what you now qualify, what you want to qualify and your reason for doing it. MR. VARNEY: Okay. What I now qualify is my company, Hurricane Shutter Installer. I'm looking to expand and develop new shutters, so I'm working with these two gentlemen here to -- we're doing a merger between their company and mine. So, I want to qualify their company as a second entity. Ultimately, my company, within the year, will no longer exist. I will be closing that down and doing business under the name Triton Shutters. Page 7 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So, Triton Shutters presently is not qualified. Is that correct? MR. VARNEY: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And you will have an interest in the new company as well? MR. VARNEY: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's quite a packet. Mr. Bartoe, a couple of questions. Any complaints -- I'm still not -- what's the name of your company now? MR. VARNEY: Affordable Hurricane Shutters. If -- if you remember correctly, sir, I'm the one that qualified -- the reason, I had an aluminum contractor's license and I was going to qualify the hurricane shutters when we found out at this meeting that you no longer could do hurricane shutters under the aluminum contractor's license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER KELLER: What percentage ownership will you have in the new business? MR. VARNEY: We haven't decided that yet. I -- I'm on a salary right now. Like I say, we're -- we're in negotiation. Getting the license is the first step so we can do advertising. We're -- we have contracts, but they're at the attorney's right now. We're going back and forth on discussing that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any complaints at all against this individual? MR.OSSORIO: For the record, Michael Ossorio. On the contrary, Michael Varney is an outstanding contractor, does good work in the county and no complaints. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir. Page 8 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, just run this by me one more time, if you would. What's the reason for -- for changing this or-- MR. VARNEY: I'm a -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: You're going to eliminate your company; right? MR. VARNEY: Pardon? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: You're going to eliminate your company out? MR. VARNEY: Yeah. Over the course of the next year. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. MR. VARNEY: And I'm going to take care of the contracts I have existing outstanding right now. We're looking at developing some new shutter products. I don't want to go into too many details on it because it's kind of a company secret. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. MR. VARNEY: But we're looking to develop some new company -- new shutter products and some expansion. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. COMMISSIONER BLUM: You -- you will have an ownership stake though. MR. VARNEY: Yes, sir. Yeah. I realize that's a requirement. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I'm just curious as to why you would want to change the name from a reputable company to a company that's brand new. MR. VARNEY: Well, the advertising we're going to do is the new company name, formerly Affordable, so we still have my name recognition. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Oh, I see. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Credit report is good unless you guys see something I don't. Page 9 May 17, 2006 Mr. Lewis, you've already looked at all of it, haven't you? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: I have. I'm ready to make a motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do it. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Motion to approve. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Second. Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion? Mr. Ossorio's comment went along ways. MR. VARNEY: Well, the only complaint I had was from Michael last week, and that's because I haven't gone out to measure a gentleman's house yet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because we -- we get a lot of shutter complaints, so -- MR. VARNEY: Well, I'm one of the few companies that didn't have any failures in the last hurricane. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anything else? Call for the vote. All those in favor? Aye. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? You got it, buddy. MR. VARNEY: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: A point for you; your file is here so don't go to Maggie today. MR. VARNEY: Okay. Page 10 May 17, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You can go tomorrow though. MR. VARNEY: Okay. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wish you well. MR. VARNEY: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's it. Where did Tom go? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Do you want to give this to him also while you're there? That would give this paper by the way. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I assume all these other people are here -- Michael, guide me. Do we want to do the workshop discussion now because that's what these people are here for? Do we want to do the cases now? You tell me. MR. OSSORIO: We're going to proceed with the cases due to the fact that Bill Hammond or the -- Bill and Fischel wants to be here. And he probably won't be here until at least ten. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: And he wants to talk to you about the amendment process and -- and why he's here and go through the process since this is his first time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Got you. Tim Payne has not come in. MR.OSSORIO: Tim Payne is not here. I told him to be here at ten. I did say that if time permitting, we -- he can discuss his -- his information to you, and that's something that's up to the board, if you want to hear it or not hear it. So, that's not on my agenda. It's really not on my priority list right now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Another question for you. This applies also to you, Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The two public hearings that are Page 11 May 17,2006 coming up, Case Number 2006-07 and 08, can I hear those together, or do I have to hear them separately? MR. NEALE: I discussed that a little bit with Mr. Zachary, and it -- certainly, the cases could be consolidated. It's been done in the past. If you remember a number of years ago, the electric man case where we had over a hundred different complaints and they were all consolidated, so I think it would be possible and appropriate if -- if the board so moves to -- to consolidate the cases. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: These are two individual parties though; right? MR. NEALE: Two individual parties, but it can be viewed by the board as one -- one case. MR. OSSORIO: And I believe there's similar cases. MR. NEALE: Yeah. Because there's similar type cases and it's one contractor, so, you know, the evidence can be brought and the board can reach one decision on both cases. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any objections from the county . MR. OSSORIO: None. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: What about disciplinary actions and/or fines and levies. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Why don't we break them down? MR. NEALE: Well, what -- what you can do is you can break-- you know, if you're finding restitution, find restitution separately for the two parties, the fines and so forth. Because of the factors that the board considers in determining penalties, you would have to look at the two cases anyhow as part of determining other penalties other than restitution. So, you know, both factor -- both would have to be weighed in any case. Page 12 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER LEWIS: So, we can separate those out to the -- to the -- MR. NEALE: You can separate out the restitution and -- and the penalties. Basically, you would consolidate the penalties other than restitution. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Bowersox, are you present? MR. HAMMOND: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would, come over here and sit on this front row right there. Are you represented by counsel? MR. HAMMOND: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right, sir. Let me explain to you how this happens. Do you have any objection to us doing both these cases at the same time? MR. HAMMOND: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right, sir. He did signify no. MR. NEALE: Yeah. Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The way this is handled, it is quasi judicial. What we will start with is the county will make an opening statement, not go into details. You'll be allowed to make an opening statement, again not go into details. And then the county will present their case. If they have witnesses, they call them. When they are finished with the witness, you can ask that witness questions at the time or you can wait until you present your case. Once the county rests, then you'll be allowed to come up and give -- say whatever you want to say, call witnesses or recall witnesses that the county had. Are you with me? Page 13 May 17,2006 MR. HAMMOND: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Once that's all done, then there will be a closing statement by the county, a closing statement by you. After that's all done, you will hear us make a motion for a closing of the public hearing, which basically is, we're finished with you unless we want to ask a question. Then we become the jury, except you listen to us deliberate. Okay? MR. HAMMOND: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And the board will come up with a ruling. Any questions? MR. HAMMOND: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. With that, Mr. Bartoe, Case Number 2006-07, Collier County versus Paul Bowersox, doing business as Trojan Pools, Incorporated. Case Number 2006-08, Collier County versus Paul Bowersox, d/b/a Trojan Pools, Incorporated. What I'd first like to -- both -- all the board members, we do have two files. I'd like one motion to introduce both of these files into evidence before we start. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So moved. Joslin. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Second. Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? Aye. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Aye. Page 14 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: Mr. Dickson, what you also probably ought to do is make a motion and have a vote on the consolidation of the cases. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Do I have such a motion. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So moved. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: To consolidate? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes, to consolidate both the cases together. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Second. Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? Discussion? I'll just note there was no objection by any parties. All those in favor? Aye. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hold on. Mr. Zachary, are you going to do it or Tom? Tom? MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Bartoe. MR. BARTOE: I will present the first case, '07, and licensing investigator, Allen Kennette, will present the second case, '08, because we investigated them. And we did get them admitted; is that correct? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. Page 15 May 17,2006 MR. KENNETTE: Yes. MR. BARTOE: In Case Number '07, the county is prepared to show you where on April 12th, 2005, that Mr. Bowersox from Trojan Pools, Incorporated did contract with Steven and Sandra Llorca, correct spelling of their last name is L-I-o-r-c-a. They have a pool and screen and enclosure built, total price of $59,900. And they to date they paid Trojan Pools, $47,920 and the job is not finished. He has abandoned the job. There are three liens on the property totaling $8,498.88. And the Llorcas have received bids of $6,438.50 to finish pool equipment and labor, $14,250 for a pool cage, and $1,225 for a baby fence, which was also in the original contract. With these liens and bids to finish the job, the total cost to the Llorcas will be $18,432.38 above the contracted price. And with that, I would like to call Mrs. Sandra Llorca to the stand over here. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Are we in opening statements? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Huh? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Are we going to do the opening in the first couple -- COMMISSIONER KELLER: Tom, can I just ask a question -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah, because they both-- COMMISSIONER KELLER: -- on the case summary? The total amount was seventeen thousand seven thirty-two, and you just said that it was eighteen thousand four thirty-two. MR. BARTOE: I did. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Okay. MR. BARTOE: I'll be able to correct that. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Okay. MR. NEALE: Mr. Dickson-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR. NEALE: -- just normally the procedure is two opening Page 16 May 17,2006 statements and -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR. NEALE: -- or as some testimony is brought out. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I didn't do that. If I could get you just to have a seat right there on the comer. I apologize. Opening statements. That pretty well it? MR. BARTOE: That's it -- and to clarify for Ms. Keller, when -- when Mrs. Llorca provided me with the information and the canceled checks that they have already paid it, she had totaled $47,220, and I added them to get $47,920. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I got you. MR. BARTOE: And that raises the figure to complete. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bowersox, would you like to make an opening statement to kind of set a stage? MR. HAMMOND: Well-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You've got to go to the podium, sir. I need for you to state your name and I'll have you sworn in, please. MR. HAMMOND: Paul Bowersox. (Paul Bowersox was placed under oath.) MR. HAMMOND: Yes, I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead. MR. HAMMOND: Okay. He says I abandoned the job. That's not true. Just last week I had the heater put on the job, the new pump. I wanted to put a new pump on it because I had a temporary pump running the pool for quite sometime. It was a new pump, but I wanted to give him a new one. I had all the Aqualink in it, everything out there delivered. The electrician and me were supposed to be there yesterday, but due to the rain, he didn't show up. He said he -- we'd do it some other day. The Page 17 May 17,2006 pool's been running. The -- the screen -- the reason the screen isn't up because my screen guy wouldn't call me back, you know. The screen is out there now from Tommy Crane, but he's dealing with the owners directly. But I did not abandon the job. It's -- I've been -- this year for me has been a little -- I -- I just got a two-month old baby boy, my first child, from my girlfriend, and who also has cancer, so she's been going through cancer treatments and that's just been taking up a lot of time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Very good. Anything else on opening? Okay. Let's go back to the case then. Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: Mrs. Llorca, would you take the stand, please? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need for you, if you would, state your name and I'll have you sworn in, please. MRS. LLORCA: Sandra Llorca. (Sandra Llorca was placed under oath.) MRS. LLORCA: I do. MR. BARTOE: Mrs. Llorca, as I stated in my opening statement, you and your husband contracted in April of 2005 with Trojan Pools to have a pool and screen enclosure built for a total of $59,900. Is that correct? MRS. LLORCA: That's correct. MR. BARTOE: And to date you have supplied me, and I think board members can see it in your packet, Pages E-6, E- 7 and E-8 with three checks from the Llorcas payable to Trojan Pools, and the first check was for $11,980, the next two checks were for 17,970. And if I'm wrong, someone correct me because I came up with $47,920 for those three checks, where earlier I believe Mrs. Llorca gave me a figure of 700 less than that. Page 18 May 17, 2006 In the packet on Page E-9 is a Claim of Lien from Gorman Company for a total of -- total value of $897.98 of which the total amount of that remained unpaid in November, around the middle of November when this lien was filed. Mrs. Llorca, what's the last time you checked in regards to this lien from Gorman Company, checked with them to see if it had been taken care of? MRS. LLORCA: Yesterday. MR. BARTOE: And at this-- MRS. LLORCA: It was still outstanding. MR. BARTOE: It has not? MRS. LLORCA: Been paid. MR. BARTOE: Page E-I0 is another Claim of Lien on that same property as a re -- being filed by Coastal Concrete Products, and a total value of$5,928, of which the total amount remains unpaid. This lien was filed in mid November also. Mrs. Llorca, what is the last time you checked the status of this lien with Coastal Products? MRS. LLORCA: Yesterday. And it has not been paid. MR. BARTOE: Thank you. And Page 11 is a Claim of Lien from Krehling Industries. I'm looking for the amount. It's small writing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: A thousand-- MR. BARTOE: On Page 7 of$1,672.90. This lien was filed in mid November also. And, Mrs. Llorca, what type -- what is the last time you checked the status of this lien and what's the results? MRS. LLORCA: Yesterday and it has not been paid. MR. BARTOE: Thank you. You heard Mr. Bowersox testify he was out to your house last week and did you see him there? MRS. LLORCA: No, I didn't. I was at work. Page 19 May 17,2006 The pool equipment was delivered to the house. MR. BARTOE: You did see pool equipment there. MRS. LLORCA: Yes. MR. BARTOE: What is the last time that you know of that approximately as close as can you come to a date that he was at your property before that? MRS. LLORCA: Last October. MR. BARTOE: October? MRS. LLORCA: Uh-huh. MR. BARTOE: You provided me with a -- a letter dated April 17th for the board members. That -- our copy is on Page E-14. And in her letter she's telling what it cost -- what she has bids for to finish pool equipment and labor for the pool cage and for a baby fence. And she mentioned the liens on the house, as she testified to today, that appear to still be active. And the page after that is a bid for the finishing of the equipment. Page E-16 is a -- is a bid from Crane Screening and Aluminum to the Llorcas to build this screen enclosure. I believe you heard Mr. Bowersox say Krehling Screening and Aluminum would not call him back. They called me back and said they're not going to build it until they get a deposit. So, this proposal between Mr. and Mrs. Llorca and Krehling Screening and Aluminum for $14,250, I see it is signed by your husband, Stephen. MRS. LLORCA: Yes. MR. BARTOE: Is that the contract that you're under now to have the screen put up? MRS. LLORCA: Yes, it is. MR. BARTOE: And it has nothing to do with Mr. Bowersox. MRS. LLORCA: No. Page 20 May 17, 2006 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Has this been contracted already, that portion of it? MR. BARTOE: That was the contractor that Mr. Bowersox was going to use. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. MR. BARTOE: And I can advise you there was -- when I first got the complaint the end of January, there was a permit ready to be picked up for the screen enclosure, and Krehling Aluminum and Screening told me they would not pick it up until they received some money from Mr. Bowersox. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Got you. Okay. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Is -- is this 14,000 part of the 59,000 originally contracted? MR. BARTOE: Yes, sir. The screen was in there. Page-- COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, the reality is that the original contract now has become 45,000, in essence. Is that right? Round numbers? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: No. COMMISSIONER KELLER: You have to take out the part that was already included. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Mike, am I on the right track here or not? COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yes. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Now, was the original contract of fifty-nine included 14,000 and change for the -- for the screen. Is that right? MR. BARTOE: I don't know what the amount was for the screen. That contract would be between the pool contractor and the screen contractor. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Well, I -- I see a date here of February 24th for 14,250. Page 21 May 17,2006 Was that 14,250 and the fifty-nine nine of the original contract? MR. BARTOE: I'm assuming it was. We could ask Mrs. Llorca. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Okay. So, in reality then at this point in time since Mr. -- Mr. -- this gentleman is out of the equation with the cage, so the original contract price is now, in essence, about 45,000 then and not fifty-nine. Is that -- MR. BARTOE: The original contract price in my mind was fifty-nine nine as written and it included a cage. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I'm with you. But the -- COMMISSIONER KELLER: Right. We don't know what-- COMMISSIONER BLUM: -- cage didn't get done -- COMMISSIONER KELLER: -- the component of that was. COMMISSIONER BLUM: -- the guy didn't pick up the permit, so that part of the dollar amount really isn't there anymore or -- or -- MR. BARTOE: We know what price Krehling contracted with the Llorcas for. I have no idea what price he contracted with Mr. Bowersox for. COMMISSIONER GUITE: I -- I can almost guarantee you that it's a lot more than what they contract with Mr. Bowersox because after the hurricane the screen prices went through the roof. MR. BARTOE: I would have to agree with you, Mr. Guite. COMMISSIONER GUITE: So, we have to take that into account. COMMISSIONER BLUM: But what I'm -- what I'm trying to get at if the screen is now out of the equation and $47,000 has already been paid to -- to the contractor, in essence, she has paid way over and above, yet the screen is not part of this and it was a lower amount. Am I making sense here? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can I jump in for a minute? First of all, the screen enclosure was included under special work of the contract, Item Number 7. That contract was dated April 25th, Page 22 May 17,2006 '05. Now, all of us are pretty well aware how long it takes to build a pool. We have a pool contractor as a vice chairman on this board. All of this could have been done before Hurricane Wilma. So, what happened in prices after Hurricane Wilma are totally irrelevant. This is a contract with no escalation clause. If you read it, there is no escalation clause in there. So, that discussion is out the window. COMMISSIONER KELLER: What's an escalation clause? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Escalation clause for price increases. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: If something happens and prices go up drastically, you have the option to increase those prices. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, yes, in answer to the question, in answer to the question, this 14,000, whatever it is, was part of the original contract. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Which now is not part of it since -- I don't want to hold -- I can't hold this gentleman liable for something that's not a part of the contract is where I'm going. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It is part of the contract. Special-- special work, Item Number 7. It was part of the contract. COMMISSIONER BLUM: But they both agreed she's going to do this separately now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: She's done it because it hasn't been done. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Right. Exactly. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just trying to get it straight here, that's all. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah, but it's an issue of how much of that part of the contract has -- is a different price because she's done it -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. Page 23 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER KELLER: -- and she's, you know, sort of held hostage to the people that were originally contracted with. So, if we had an original contract with the contractor and the screen provider, then it might change. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How is that relevant when he had a permit that could have been picked up and the work done if the job had been done in a timely manner? It's not relevant. The escalation and the fact that she's dealing directly with him by herself now is because of a lack of performance. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. 1'11-- I'll interject. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I think you're getting sidetracked here. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I want to interject one other thing here just while we're on the subject, so as far as the dollars, I see Mr. Blum is trying to -- tried to account for. I'm seeing these -- proposals from the Krehling Screen enclosures where he's more or less asking for a 50 percent deposit on a brand new screen enclosure for a construction job, which -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: Right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- I think the ten percent is -- was normal and fitting and proper. So, I would think on a $14,250 contract for the screen enclosure, ifit were that, that Mr. Bowersox should have came up with $1425, which should have started that ten percent rolling and it would have started that permit happening. But for him -- for Mr. Krehling or whoever, to beat him up for $7200, that's just a bit over and above the ten percent mark, I believe. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But again what it is -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, I wouldn't have paid it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're getting --losing sight of the point here. Oh, you're -- but this isn't the original contract that he had on the pool. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I understand that. Page 24 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This is with the owners. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: But we're talking about an owner contract now. Well, his price would have been a lot less yet, I'm sure. As a contractor's pricing I get my screen enclosures or most contractors buy their screen enclosures for less and the retail price that's sold is this $14,000 number. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's still irrelevant. Mr. Neale, help me. What is the reason that all these prices have gone up? What's the reason that they're having to deal directly with the screen enclosure contract? It's because of a lack of performance and a completion of an initial contract. Don't get -- we're going off on side roads. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I understand that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bowersox is the issue here. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I understand what you're saying, Mr. -- Mr. Dickson. But under the circumstances I can see where -- if Mr. Bowersox got to a certain point and he called for the screen enclosure to be put up and that screen enclosure person asked him for a 50 percent deposit on a $14,000 screen enclosure, that over exceeds the ten percent deposit that would be normally required. And what would happen is that maybe he didn't at that point have the money to give him $7200 -- COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah, but-- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- which would start that screen enclosure being put up. COMMISSIONER KELLER: This is the new contract. The old contract probably was different. MR. NEALE: If I could, I mean, what the board's looking at is not the facts in evidence at this point and it's a lot of conjecture that the board's undergoing. Page 25 May 17,2006 I would suggest that, you know, this case is to be decided on the facts in front of you, not what might have happened, what could have happened. So, if there's testimony offered to that then, you know, the facts in evidence are the facts in evidence and that's what the board is to decide on. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let's continue, Mr. Bartoe. MR. BARTOE: I'm sorry, sir? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Continue. MR. BARTOE: I don't know where to continue other than I have no more questions at this time of this witness. I do not know now whether Mr. Bowersox does or not. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, you're presented your evidence. MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask one question of Mrs. Llorca. To date, have you paid all of the draws that you were supposed to pay under the contract? MRS. LLORCA: Yes, I have. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Bowersox, do you want to ask Miss Llorca any questions at this time? MR. HAMMOND: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Do you have any further witnesses? MR. BARTOE: No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. Mrs. Llorca, thank you. Mr. Neale, at this point -- well, let's -- now that they've rested their case, Mr. Bowersox, it's your turn. Give us your rebuttal. You're allowed to call any witnesses, introduce any evidence, anything you want to do to defense yourself. MR. HAMMOND: Well, just on that case, the screen guy told me that he was going to honor the original contract price to the Page 26 May 17,2006 Llorcas. So, the $14,000, I believe -- I'm not sure without the bid sheet in my hand, but that may be the right price. And also the reason it took so long, if you remember back, we had a concrete shortage and it took weeks to get concrete after you ordered it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How big is the screen enclosure because 14,000 on current prices doesn't sound that outrageous. It sounds like a pretty good price. MR. HAMMOND: It's a large cage. It's like 65 by 40. It's -- it's kind of chopped up, you know. The screen is not that big but -- but it's -- it's a good cage. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Lewis. MR. HAMMOND: Very large. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It sounds like a great price, doesn't it? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: It -- it is a fair price, especially if -- MR. BARTOE: Yeah. I can add to that. I've seen prices lately, and this, as he said, it is a large enclosure and it does sound like a decent price to me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anything else? Is that all you're going to present? MR. HAMMOND: Well, that's the reason it took so long is the money, big -- you know, big crunch in money. I had a lot contracts that they didn't pay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me ask you some pointed questions then. MR. HAMMOND: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You know as a contractor the number one rule and the biggest infraction that you can possibly bring upon yourself is allowing a lien to be put on a piece of property. MR. HAMMOND: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You've got three of them. Page 27 May 17,2006 MR. HAMMOND: I know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How do you answer to that? MR. HAMMOND: Well, the guy that's -- the gentleman that sold the job was also my general manager in the office, paying the bills, stuff like that. How this happened, I'm not sure. He's no longer with me but, you know, I'm -- I'm working, trying to get everything paid. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's not a good answer. MR. HAMMOND: I know, but it's the only one I got. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I know in my business, and I'm sure every other contractor up here, just for your information, three people up on -- well, two on this board are consumers. All the rest of us are contractors. If a customer in my business were to get a lien on them, it's like an atom bomb going off. Why did you not react and why did you not get these liens paid off and removed because some of these are ridiculously cheap? MR. HAMMOND: Well, I've -- I can't believe they're not, because I have a payment plan with Gorman. I'm paying them 2500 bucks a month to get them paid off, and a couple other ones, Coastal Concrete with the pavers. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: $2500 a month to Gorman. How much was the original lien ? MR. HAMMOND: Well, the original-- what I owe them and what I'm in arrears of is 40,000. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, I'm talking this one job though. This is the one that has a lien on it. What you're basically telling me is you got other liens out there I don't know about. MR. HAMMOND: Well, I don't know that there's -- that's what I owe Gorman. There is a -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because-- Page 28 May 17,2006 MR. HAMMOND: There is a few other liens out there, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because these liens were filed in September and November and they're still not paid off and one was for only -- was less than $1,000 and one was 1600. And what -- you know what happens at the end of the year. That lien expires unless they foreclose or renew the lien. So, everything's about ready to come down on this homeowner. MR. HAMMOND: Well-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you not have the money to get these liens removed? MR. HAMMOND: Yes, I do. Now I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because they've been on there for anywhere from six to nine months. MR. HAMMOND: I know. I'm just -- I'm just starting to turn around now. I'm doing a lot of labor, sub-laboring work to get the cash flow back up so I can payoff these loans. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you know how great it would have been if you got these liens removed before you came before this board? MR. HAMMOND: Yep. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any other questions from the board? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. Do you -- do you intend to finish this pool? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Come back up, Mr. Bowersox. MR. HAMMOND: I'm sorry. Oh, yes. COMMISSIONER BLUM: What -- how -- how -- how close to being done is this pool other than the cage? MR. HAMMOND: Two, three hours. Just hook up the equipment, the filter and the -- everything's running. I just got to Page 29 May 17,2006 install the heater and then work with the electrician and wiring it all. That's it. COMMISSIONER BLUM: And then -- MR. HAMMOND: And then put up the baby fence after the screen's up. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, basically, you've been paid in full when this thing is running other than the cage. Is that right? MR. HAMMOND: No. I would say so. Since we backed out the screen, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: In fact, you've been overpaid, I believe. MR. HAMMOND: I don't know. I -- that I don't know. I'll have to look at my bid sheet, see what the actual screen price was. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Well, again, I'm going back to -- if you picked 14,000 out, you got 45,000 that the job is worth to you. You've been paid 47,920. So, you've been overpaid two grand and you still got 8,000, almost $9,000 worth of liens. So, in reality, in my mind, I see you owing these people with the bare minimum two thousand and some odd dollars on the contract plus removing all the liens, and then they get their own cage. MR. HAMMOND: Right. COMMISSIONER BLUM: How close are you if you could make something like that happen? I mean, is that doable for you? MR. HAMMOND: Oh, yeah. Yes. Yes. By the end of this month, I should have everything cleared up with them. MR. BARTOE: May I add something? Since I've started this investigation, I haven't seen anything done at that job site up until a couple weekends ago. Right after that, this pallet showed up with a pool heater, pool pump, I believe the Aqualink equipment. Page 30 May 17, 2006 And the next time I go back, the Aqualink equipment is screwed onto the stucco wall. That's all. How long does that take? Between Monday and Tuesday, somebody showed up there, I'm assuming it's Mr. Bowersox, and took the pool heater and pool pump out of their boxes, set them on the cement pad. If he calls that working, I could do that in two minutes and leave. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: When did you start working on this? What kind of time frame are you talking about? MR. BARTOE: When did he start working? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. When did you start being involved in this case? MR. BARTOE: Oh, I'm sorry. Me? January 24th. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: January 24th. And you just saw activity in the last two weeks? MR. BARTOE: I saw nothing done up until that pallet was delivered. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And, Mr. Neale, legal definition of abandonment is six -- MR. BARTOE: I -- I did not charge him with abandonment, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. But I'm -- MR. BARTOE: It is part of the money related, one charge, yes, sIr. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm asking the question. Abandonment is 60 or 90? MR. NEALE: I'll check the ordinance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anybody else have any other questions? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Can I ask Mr. Joslin? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sure. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I mean, I had a pool built and I had a CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can we do this? Page 31 May 17, 2006 COMMISSIONER BLUM: Oh, okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm just wondering -- I'm not trying to MR. NEALE: It's it 90 days by the way. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Huh? MR. NEALE: Ninety days. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ninety days constitutes abandonment. Do we want to do this in discussion or now because it leads to questions that will -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: It could wait, sure. No problem. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Do you have any questions? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: No. I pretty much answered everything, I think, that I was thinking about. As far as the conditional phase of how far along you are on the job right now, what's been done; what's been completed and what's left? I would only have one question, is why have not you been back to this pool since what, November? MR. BARTOE: I believe Mrs. Llorca testified October. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: October? MR. HAMMOND: Well, because I got put on, you know, COD on everybody and I had to come up with this $6,000 to buy the heater, the Aqualink, everything to get the job done. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. Well, that's a good answer, I suppose, but that tells me that there must be some more -- some more situations out there, where if you have that much indebted to Gorman and to Krehling and to Coastal Concretes, that there are some other jobs out there, too, that are either not paid for yet or your accounts are closed off so that you cannot purchase anything there anymore except if you walk in and pay cash for it, which that doesn't set well with me because now I know there's more problems out there. MR. HAMMOND: No, there's -- there's actually not. There's-- Page 32 May 17, 2006 I've got three jobs that I'm finaling out, and that's all that's out there. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Well-- MR. BARTOE: To contradict his last statement, I'd like to recall, when I get a chance, Mrs. Llorca. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions ofMr. Bowersox? Okay. Thank you. Mrs. Llorca, would you come back up, please? MRS. LLORCA: Uh-huh. MR. BARTOE: Thank you. Mrs. Llorca, do you remember advising me that your brother-in-law had some renovation work done by Mr. Bowersox, Trojan Pools? MRS. LLORCA: Yes. MR. BARTOE: And you told me you had felt that there might be a lien or two on his property, and I asked you yesterday if you would please double check with him and did you do so? MRS. LLORCA: Yes, I did. MR. BARTOE: And could you advise me of what those results of that check were? MRS. LLORCA: They had a lien with Gorman for $5,471 and Coastal Concrete for four hundred four hundred -- I'm sorry -- $4,433. MR. BARTOE: Thank you. I have no more questions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Stay there if you will. Just for everyone's knowledge, we do accept hearsay in here. Question for you. Tell me the condition of your pool right now and can it be finished in a couple of hours? I want to hear about it. MRS. LLORCA: The pool is actually great. It's good work. We're very happy with, you know, the look of it and everything like that. The only thing is it's been running 24 hours a day on an outlet pump, so we have to unplug it because it's not running off the outlet Page 33 May 17, 2006 the right way. And -- but there's no heater, and then there's no -- the baby fence isn't up, nor is the cage, or the blowers in the spa. None of that has been connected. The only equipment that had been connected was the actual pump to keep the pool running. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you -- are you aware of the inspections from the permit? Is everything -- it hadn't been finaled yet? MRS. LLORCA: No, it has not been -- it has not been finaled yet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because I'm wondering if -- when did he actually start the pool? MRS. LLORCA: He actually started it the weekend of July 4th. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Because he's coming up -- that permit's going to expire here -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: July. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- in July. They're good for one year only. So, what you're telling me is you like the pool. MRS. LLORCA: Oh, I love the pool. The pool is great. I'd just like it finished. That's what I paid for. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And paid for. MRS. LLORCA: Yeah. And paid for. My -- my only question was, is that with the Gorman lien? We got noticed yesterday that they were starting foreclosure proceedings if they don't get -- paid it by May 22nd. Should I pay that or -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You need to contact legal counsel, but I will tell you a lot of -- a lot of us never wait for a year to happen because that's how things get lost. It does automatically expire at the end of 12 months. Page 34 May 17,2006 MRS. LLORCA: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You can renew a lien, but I'd -- like every other contractor, I want my money. MRS. LLORCA: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, a foreclosure usually gets your money. MRS. LLORCA: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But I think I would seek legal counsel on that one. MRS. LLORCA: Okay. Will do. MR.OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, I got one question-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. OSSORIO: -- for Mr. Bartoe. Mr. Bartoe, would you say that Mr. Bowersox has -- has forthright come to the office and provided all the information that you needed as to telephone numbers, where the address, where he's living, or would you say it was actually pretty difficult to canvas Marco Island to actually try to find him to serve him to get him here today? MR. BARTOE: It was difficult to find him and serve him, which I'd never was able to. Mr. Kennette did. Allen Kennette and I found the office closed. It appears to be abandoned, phone numbers disconnected. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anyone have any other questions of Mrs. Llorca? Thank you. Go ahead. That all, Michael? MR.OSSORIO: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Closing statements unless you guys have any more questions for anyone. MR. NEALE: Well, what I would -- I would suggest is instead of having closing statements on this case -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sir? Page 35 May 17, 2006 MR. NEALE: -- is have the evidence presented on the second case and then consider them both at the same time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. The suits rule. Okay. Mr. Bartoe, let's look at the next case. MR. BARTOE: I will let Mr. Kennette present the next case, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This is Case Number 2006-08, Board of Collier County Commissioners, Collier County, Florida, Contractor Licensing Board versus Paul Bowersox, d/b/a Trojan Pools, Incorporated. We've already had opening statements. Let's proceed right on to the presentation of the case. MR. KENNETTE: Do you want me -- I've got to be sworn in. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. KENNETTE: Allen Kennette, Collier County Contractor Licensing Compliance Officer. (Allen Kennette was placed under oath.) MR. KENNETTE: Yes, I do. This is a case also with Mr. Paul Bowersox doing business as Trojan Pools. A contract was taken with Mr. Eduardo Hoyo of Lamplighter Court on Marco Island on March 11 th, 2005 to install a pool, complete pool, for $43,000. On February 1st of2006, Mr. Hoyo made a complaint to us that nothing has been done after the pool has been finished. The cage has not been done along with several other items that have not been finished. Mr. Bowersox would not return his call. Several attempts were made to contact Mr. Bowersox in -- by phone and in person, which were unable to. There was a lien placed on the property by Gorman also, for $2,835 for lack of payment. Mr. Hoyo has been up to date on all his payments as -- as spelled out in the contract. He had made a five Page 36 May 17,2006 percent deposit. The 45 percent and the 30 percent when the shell was -- are completed. Checks were $2,150 for the contract deposit. The other check for the shell was the 8,600 and then a check for 19,350 was paid. These are on Exhibits 6, 5 and 6 and 7. He is up to date on payments, holding back the final completion payment of $12,900 that is owed to Mr. Bowersox on completion of the pool, which was not completed. Mr. Bowersox stated that he would not go out there and complete it in February when I contacted him finally on his -- on his cell phone, but that he would finish the sidewalk that was damaged through a rainstorm after they poured the cement, and he did go back out in the first weeks of February and took one day to complete that job, which puts him in the abandonment because he's over 90 days for not completing anything else. He had no intentions of completing it, and also the lien has not been removed as of two weeks from now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm just looking. This sidewalk is part of the contract? Yes. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. MR. KENNETTE: Yes. It was -- it is in there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He writes good contracts. MR. KENNETTE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I mean everything is spelled out in there. MR. KENNETTE: Yes. Everything is there that it was supposed to be finished, and as you can see on the -- on the summary, there was lacking a few items that he did not complete on the pool. Item 14 was not done, which is the pool cage. Item 15, the baby fence, was not done. Also the survey, Number 19, was not completed, and also he was going to refinish the deck after the cage was installed, Page 37 May 17,2006 Number 20. And, of course, the lien has not been removed. And on 5/5, there was an inspection of the pool, which failed, from Marco Island by Brusa Yakola, Y-a-k-o-I-a, for the pump and heater not being properly grounded, and the wall light not within the five feet of pool edge -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. ZACHARY: -- which I just got this today. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, is there any reason to introduce that? I don't think we need it. Do you? MR. NEALE: Probably a good idea. It's being presented. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I need a motion for someone to introduce that and we could use a copy, but at least that rejection from Marco Island Permitting Department, that would be Exhibit A on Case Number 08. Is that the one we're on? MR. NEALE: Actually B, because -- Exhibit A? Exhibit A is the composite exhibit. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Exhibit -- it would be B? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So moved, that that stop work order -- shall introduced as evidence as Exhibit A -- B. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second, somebody? COMMISSIONER KELLER: Second. Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? Aye. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you give that to the reporter Page 38 May 17,2006 and let her mark that? And then after she does that, if you'd pass it -- bring it up here so we can pass it through. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Before you do, could you read it more time, just right here -- because I know if I saw it -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You've got to go to the microphone. MR. KENNETTE: It was rejected for the -- the rejection was for the pool, pump and heater not properly bonded. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. KENNETTE: A removal of the wall light within five feet of pool ledge. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. His permit is expired, isn't it? MR. KENNETTE: Yes, it has. The permit has expired. It was -- it was issued and it -- that did expire -- where is it? I was just looking at that myself. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 4/21/05. MR. KENNETTE: Yes, it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, 4/20 -- 4/20/06 it expired. Surprised they did an inspection in May. MR. KENNETTE: Yes. Well, it's up and running. I guess the owner probably called it in to have that final inspection done on it. MR. NEALE: Mr. Dickson, are we in opening -- opening statement now on Mr. Kennette or not? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I skipped that. We've already done it. MR. NEALE: Well, you probably -- you probably want to do opening statements on this case, too. I mean, even though they're consolidated, you probably want to. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Do you have an opening statement, Mr. Bowersox, that you want to make? MR. HAMMOND: No, not yet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Signified no. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: When you inspected this pool also, Page 39 May 17, 2006 what percentage of this pool was completed? MR. KENNETTE: Everything but those items that I listed under the -- the pool cage, the baby -- the pool cage, the baby fence, the final survey and the refinishing of the deck along with the lien that was placed on the property and now the re-inspection for the two items that I read. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Do you know who the licensed electrician was on the -- on the job? MR. KENNETTE: No, I don't. It was not listed. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Is there a way to find out, because that would have something to do with the wall lines for the electrical lines that are too close and not grounded. MR. KENNETTE: Uh-huh. I can check the card, sign off card on the -- the proj ect. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aren't both of these items to do with the electrician? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN : Yes. Yes and no. COMMISSIONER BLUM: The -- the five-foot thing, I'm a little -- I don't quite know what that means. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It's a wall -- it's a wall socket that's within five foot of the water's edge. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Oh, okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It would be there. It has to be a minimum ten. COMMISSIONER BLUM: And this would have been a socket that had been added? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It probably was on the -- on the home possibly. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Originally. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Then he put the pool in, maybe three foot off the house, and that wall socket would be within five feet. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, that has to be moved or capped Page 40 May 17,2006 off. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Or capped off, right. COMMISSIONER HORN: I've got a question about that contract on Page E-3 between the homeowner and the contractor here. There's a handwritten note, Number 21, which I assume was part of the original contract where it says, failure to complete within ten weeks carries a penalty of 75 per day. I assume that's for the contractor to pay if not completed on time? MR. KENNETTE: I'm not sure of that. I did not see that part of it, but the homeowner is here to testify to that. He can probably clear that up -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale -- MR. KENNETTE: -- what that means. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I saw that, too, and totally ignored it. Would you look at E-3? From what I know from law that's not legal. I see no initials or dates by either -- either party on it. Would you be a judge and rule? MR. NEALE: That's hard to tell whether it was written on the original contract or -- because it trails off the edge of the page. I mean, it's sort of hard to figure out what it -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Assuming they have the original, would it still be liable? It's something that could have been written after he signed the contract with the contractor without -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Sure. MR. NEALE: Potentially. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There has to be -- am I not correct, it has to be initialed and dated? MR. NEALE: It certainly should be unless the contractor-- unless the contractor admits that that was put on there and accepts it subsequently. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. ZACHARY: And the homeowner can be asked, too, Page 41 May 17,2006 whether that was on there when the contract was originally signed. MR. NEALE: So, I mean, you can take testimony from both sides. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Reason being, I see it listed on his actual contract. It spells it out, contract excludes, Number 1, sod and landscape, and, Number 2, paint. And another notation to the right of that says, contract is turnkey except for sod and landscape and paint. The same terms were actually listed there, but not on this contract. This -- the second thing was, Number Two was added in, penciled in. COMMISSIONER KELLER: The other thing is Number 15 on the second contract has written in, child fence, but it's not listed as an option above as it was in the first contract -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. COMMISSIONER KELLER: -- so, I'm wondering about that. We should get testimony. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you going to call witnesses? MR. KENNETTE: Yes. I'd like to call the homeowner, Mr. Eduardo Y oko -- Hoyo, I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning, sir. MR. HOYO: Good morning to you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would state your name and then I need to have you sworn in. MR. HOYO: Eduardo Hoyo. (Eduardo Hoyo was placed under oath.) MR. HOYO: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead. MR. KENNETTE: Mr. Hoyo, the contract between you and Mr. Bowersox of Trojan Pools, is that something that you -- that the date that you signed that on? MR. HOYO: The date on the contract? Page 42 May 17,2006 MR. KENNETTE: On the contract, was that the date you originally signed that on March 11th? MR. HOYO: That's correct. MR. KENNETTE: And that was for completion of the whole poo I? MR. HOYO: That's correct. All the items that are listed on the contract? MR. KENNETTE: Yes. When was the last time that he was on the property? MR. HOYO: About February. MR. KENNETTE: When he finished the -- MR. HOYO: He had to redo the sidewalk. MR. KENNETTE: Okay. And you did check on the lien and it was still on two weeks past? MR. HOYO: I'm in contact with Lori at Gorman and she would notify me if the lien was paid off. MR. KENNETTE: Okay. Has Mr. Bowersox ever contacted you after the sidewalk was completed? MR. HOYO: No. MR. KENNETTE: The bids that you have for the completion of the pool to make the contract full is a total-- total and cure of additional cost of $7,027.68 -- MR. HOYO: That's correct. MR. KENNETTE: -- minus the two failures for the electrician, which we didn't have. MR. HOYO: That's correct. MR. KENNETTE: That's all I have. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you go back to E-3 and look at the contract, Mr. Hoyo? Item Number 15, 18, 19 and 20 and 21, were those on the original contract? MR. HOYO: I have here a fax copy from Trojan Pools that I Page 43 May 17, 2006 asked the secretary to fax to me. It has the Troj an Pools identifier on top, which will show you that those items were on there and in possession of Paul. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I don't. So, is that your handwriting? MR. HOYO: Yes, it is. That was added to the contract and was on there when this contract was signed at his office and the deposit was gIven. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to ask you the same question I asked the other person. What's the condition of your pool right now? MR. HOYO: The pool right now is -- is running. The items that are missing are what Allen has stated. I've since then hired a contractor to do the pool cage and it's about 90 percent complete right now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What's the quality of the pool? MR. HOYO: The pool, in my opinion, poor. The finish in the inside, if you look under water, there are pits, which I asked Mr. Bowersox to correct when I noticed them, and nothing was done to correct that problem. There's -- I have a pebble finish and, you know, it's supposed to be smooth and it -- have the rock finish. Well, there are holes, pits, in different parts of the pool. Unfortunately it's under water and I don't have an underwater camera or else I would have brought pictures to show you that. He had to refinish the -- the deck twice. He spray creted the deck and he had to come back and spray crete it again because it was a really shoddy job. It looks horrible. And he came and redid it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have any discussion? Did you see the inspector out there? MR. HOYO: Yes, I did. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did he say anything about this permit Page 44 May 17,2006 being expired? MR. HOYO: No, he didn't. He came to do a final on the pool because I wanted to know prior to this meeting what else besides the obvious was missing on the pool. Something like a bonding wire I would not have noticed. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: This -- are these pits that you're talking about in the pool finish, are these like little, tiny, round pits or like -- MR. HOYO: They're about, I would say, probably the biggest one a quarter size or indents, probably a quarter inch, eighth of an inch. Different. I mean, I don't -- I don't have it exact, but they're noticeable. You're -- you're supposed to have a smooth, pebble finish and it's not. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: What percentage of the pool would you say is like that? MR. HOYO: I would have to guess, but there's probably six to seven spots that are like that. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. Sometimes in that pebble finish aggregate, sometimes you do have a break down of materials where sometimes you will get a little imperfection, which with a rock finish, it's kind of a normal thing. MR. HOYO: Uh-huh. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Depending on how severe it is now. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but in my -- my business that's sometimes a little tiny -- little, tiny spots of four, five, six of them may not be out of the question. MR. HOYO: Yeah, there were, you know, but there were some a quarter size. I mean, they're -- you would be able to see them. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Could you tell if the aggregate is actually falling out or it's rougher or -- MR. HOYO: No. I think it -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- smooth, but it's just Page 45 May 17,2006 impressioned? MR. HOYO: In my opinion, I'm not a -- I don't do this kind of work, but in my opinion it was just -- it was not applied. It didn't fall out. It was just that it was applied smoothly in some spots. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions of him? The board have any questions of him? Do you have any -- Mr. Bowersox, do you have any questions of this witness? MR. HAMMOND: Well, one. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I need for you to go to this podium over here. MR. HAMMOND: The mention of the sidewalk, you're saying that the sidewalks are in the contract? MR. HOYO: Everything that we have agreed on was in this contract. If you have another paper stating anything else, I'd like you demonstrate it. MR. HAMMOND: You mean pouring three-quarters around your house, sidewalks is in that contract. MR. HOYO: I had a diagram that was faxed to your manager when the contract was done. MR. HAMMOND: No. That was several months after the contract of what you wanted. And you asked me -- MR. HOYO: You have another document that shows that I have extra work done -- MR. HAMMOND: Are you saying all those sidewalks that I poured at your house is in the original contract? MR. HOYO: Part of the contract. No, not stated in here, but they were agreed on by the drawing. MR. HAMMOND: You're telling me that when I gave you a price of $1800 to pour that back sidewalk, you don't remember that. No, you don't remember that. Page 46 May 17,2006 MR. HOYO: No, sir. The only thing I know is my pool was contracted on March 11 th and was supposed to be finished by July, and we're now in May of '06 and my pool is not finished. MR. HAMMOND: Yes. MR. HOYO: And I paid you up to my draws. MR. HAMMOND: Except for -- MR. HOYO: And you had not completed my pool. MR. HAMMOND: Except for all the extras, $4,000 worth of extras and you won't pay me. That's why there's a lien on your job. MR. HOYO: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I see nothing in the -- in the contracts, both of your sakes, that says anything about sidewalks. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. And I was incorrect when I said that. It's not in the contract. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: No. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, is there a separate contract? MR. HAMMOND: Well, verbally. When I was working on the job, he asked me if I could pour sidewalks all the way around and down this one side of his house, around the back, along the seawall, back up to his garage. And I said, yes, I would do that. And he said, give me a price and -- and the original price was 1800 and then he kept adding and adding and adding. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You don't have any signed change orders? MR. HAMMOND: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why? MR. HAMMOND: I know. COMMISSIONER BLUM: But you did the work? MR. HAMMOND: Well, because at then we had a good Page 47 May 17,2006 relationship, I thought. And then when he said he wasn't going to pay me then-- , CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I would get a signed change order from my father. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yeah. Really. MR. HOYO: I'd like to add something. I called the electrician that did the work on the job to see if he can come correct the bonding wire and he said he would not come out because he had not been paid on the job. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions of him? MR. HAMMOND: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anybody else have any question of Hoyo? Thank you, sir. MR. HOYO: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any more evidence? County? MR. KENNETTE: I have received three other calls this week also of high liens placed on properties, but I don't have anything to back that up yet. They were -- they were waiting for -- to see what happened to that -- at today's meeting. I also have another contract here from Trojan Pools from another client to have done -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Not part of this case though, is it? MR. KENNETTE: No, not part of this case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. KENNETTE: And there's other -- there's over 20 open cases on Marco Island that have not had final pool inspections by Troj an. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Twenty? MR. KENNETTE: Twenty. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: How far do they date back? MR. KENNETTE: They don't list it that way. They give it an Page 48 May 17,2006 AP number. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I see. MR. KENNETTE: And it doesn't show any dates on -- on open contracts from any pools that were -- were out there. These were all for Bowersox that were done on Marco Island still left open. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Over what period of time? MR. KENNETTE: This was over a year back, way back the last year. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, it's like the year, the year and a half, these -- all these 20 things are about a year -- within a year or so? MR. KENNETTE: I would say within the year or so. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything further? MR. KENNETTE: No, nothing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Your case. Do you want to present your defense? MR. HAMMOND: Well, the 20 cases that's open on Marco, I'm not sure what that's about; could be builders that I'm doing work for. I'm not sure. The city has not been on me about it, so I don't know what that's about. On the Hoyo job now, I guess, like I said, the sidewalks were extras. There's quite a few extras on that job that I did without-- without the proper change orders. And when I told Eddie, he said he wanted his -- he wanted release of liens. And, I said, Eddie, you got to pay me first. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that Mr. -- is that Hoyo? MR. HAMMOND: Yes. Mr. Hoyo. I said, Eddie, you got to pay me first and then I'll get you releases. He says, no, you give me releases and then I'll pay you. Well, I know that's not right because I've done that before and then you don't ever get paid. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Did you ever pay him after giving Page 49 May 17,2006 him a contract, say, you sign this contract to say I did the work and then I'll go ahead and pay the lien or I'll pay the material and then you pay me? That way you have something in writing. MR. HAMMOND: No. We never did that. No. And then on the deck, he says it was poor. Well, the first time I did it, I painted it the color that he had asked. He came, he looked at it, he loved it. And then after a couple of days, he was saying it was too light. So, to -- he picked out another color, which I told him that was going to cost him extra to change color. He said, okay, just make it this color. So, whether we -- we restained it again, that color. Then he come back and he says, now, you've restained it, all the texture is gone. So, then, we resprayed it and did it yet a different color, because he didn't like the second color either. So, we did it twice -- painted it three times, sprayed it twice. So, he was happy. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Wow! CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Question for you. Do you have a copy of that -- the contract we're looking at? MR. HAMMOND: Not with me, no. But I do and -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, do you have one sitting there he can look at? I'm looking at E-3. Would you look at that? And, in particular, would you look at Item Number 15 and then all the writing on the side? Was that done at the time the contract was signed? MR. HAMMOND: No. This was done -- he faxed this back to me like this, because my contract doesn't say anything about child fence. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who has the original contract? MR. HAMMOND: I do. Page 50 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. You don't have it with you though? MR. HAMMOND: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why would you come to both of these cases today and not have any of your documents with you? MR. HAMMOND: Well, I wasn't sure what this was all about. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It was pretty clear. Do you ever sign a contract when people put all those little notes and writing in there? MR. HAMMOND: No. This wasn't -- no. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If someone did that to me on one of my contracts, we would shake hands and say goodbye. Are you about the same way? MR. HAMMOND: Well, yeah. This contract, I sign when I write them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. HAMMOND: This was -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's very unusual. I would never allow anyone to do this on one of my contracts. MR. HAMMOND: No. Neither would I. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Well, this contract isn't even complete. It doesn't have a total contract price, it doesn't list the options separately like you did on the first one, so -- MR. HAMMOND: This was just faxed back to me from his office in Miami, I believe, because my contracts are much larger than this, the originals. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But that is your signature on the contract; correct? MR. HAMMOND: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. HAMMOND: But the -- all the notes weren't there when I signed it. Page 51 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: One other question of the contract itself. The one that I have in front of me shows that you have a total base -- base contract price of $43,000. Is that right? MR. HAMMOND: Right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: And you have an option section which is blank. MR. HAMMOND: Right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: But on your -- in the nomenclature or the break down of your optional items, it shows your heat pump, it shows Aqualink, it shows you inflow of pitting system, and it shows salt generator prep. Additional prices? MR. HAMMOND: Correct. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Was these -- were these added to the $43,000? MR. HAMMOND: No. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Or was that covered in the 43,000? MR. HAMMOND: What's that? The $43,000, there was no options. He didn't -- no. He supplied his own heater, which I hooked up. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, all of these optional items that are listed here are not part of the contractor or you were not supposed to do? MR. HAMMOND: No, no. They're not part of the contract. In this case, he -- if he would choose an option like one -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. MR. HAMMOND: -- next to the options, we would write in there option number one. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything else you want to present? MR. HAMMOND: No. That's basically it. The reason I pulled off the job because he never paid me. And I Page 52 May 17,2006 told him as soon as he paid me, I would release the lien and -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Well, unfortunately, Mr. Bowersox, you don't have anything in writing to -- to demand payment from him except for your conversations as a one-on-one relationship, so -- MR. HAMMOND: Right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- therefore, that -- that reasoning for not going back and finishing the job isn't going to fly. MR. HAMMOND: Right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: If you had something in writing that you could show us that says that he did not pay that portion of the contract and that's why you didn't go back, that's a different story. But right now, we have nothing in writing that says that you contracted with him to do those sidewalks other than what you may have agreed to do for him for free for all we know. MR. HAMMOND: Right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, that's not a reason why you don't go back. MR. HAMMOND: I understand. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Was the pool cage part of this price also? MR. HAMMOND: Yes. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, in the 43,000 -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Come back. Come back up, Mr. Bowersox. Was the pool cage part of the contract? MR. HAMMOND: Not -- well, sort of. He did -- he wanted some changes done, so the price that he got on his cage is not what's in my contract. My contract states just a regular cage. Well, he wanted ten-foot walls. Well, his soffit height is at eight foot, so that's what normally we would do. Page 53 May 17,2006 He said he wanted ten-foot walls. And I said, well, Eddie, that's going to cost extra because you got to go -- you can't put ten-foot walls on an eight-foot house, unless, of course, you put a knee wall on the house. And that's what he said he wanted. So, the cage that he had got put up has ten-foot walls on it, so that's not -- that's not a correct bid price through my contract. COMMISSIONER BLUM: All right. So, you didn't -- you didn't have anything to do with the cage then. MR. HAMMOND: No. COMMISSIONER BLUM: And what -- what part of this 43,000 included dollars for a cage? MR. HAMMOND: I'm not sure. I'd have to look at the bid sheet, but I think it was around 8,000. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. One more time, Mr. Bowersox. Your contract -- and, again, number one, said you put out a pretty good contract; however, what you're telling me now and what's actually been done or what you're saying that Mr. Hoyo wanted, on your contract it says, Number 14, under special work, Mansard screen enclosure with two doors and structure gutters. MR. HAMMOND: Right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Nothing about wall heights. MR. HAMMOND: No. But-- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: He picks a 12-foot high screen enclosure, it's not in your contract. MR. HAMMOND: Well, yes, I understand but-- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Unless there's a change order that says differently or you have another, quote, bid to him. So, again, it doesn't apply. It's your job to put it in that enclosure, whether it's a ten-foot wall or-- MR. HAMMOND: Well, I was going to put up the enclosure Page 54 May 17,2006 with eight-foot walls, just like, you know, every pool builder that I know that go out and measures -- when they're doing their bids, they measure the soffit height to the deck. That's your wall heights. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: True. So, what made a ten-foot wall? Drop the deck down? MR. HAMMOND: No, no. He wanted to put a knee wall up on the gutter. He wanted to go higher up, from the gutter up two feet. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Did you get a quote from the screen person giving you a price on putting that knee wall up there, additional height? MR. HAMMOND: The screen guy dealt with him directly on that. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. So-- MR. HAMMOND: I-- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- I'm confused then. MR. HAMMOND: Well, when -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: How are you going to break it down then? How are you going to know what you bid to him under your contract versus what he wants on the actual job? MR. HAMMOND: Well, I have a bid sheet that's got everything on it. So, it tells me what -- and then -- you know, the job was well underway. It was well underway when he said he wanted ten-foot walls like the neighbors. He says, now my cage is going to look like the neighbors. I said, yeah, it's going to be a Mansard roof but he's got 14-foot walls because his soffit was 14 foot high. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. One more time though. You should have gotten the change order at that time, would have alleviated a lot of the problems. MR. HAMMOND: Well, see, I didn't agree to put the 10-foot walls up. I said, if you want 10- foot walls, then you'll have to go through my screen guy and ask him to do that for you and pay him Page 55 May 17, 2006 direct! y. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I understand. Okay. That's all I have. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? Anything else? Let's do it this way. You tell me, Mr. Neale? Closing statements by Mr. Bartoe and then Mr. Kennette? MR. NEALE: Yeah. I think that would be a good idea and then what you may want to do is, because we're an hour and a half in, do you want to take a break now or after opening -- closing statements or -- do you want to do that? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to close the public hearing before we take a break. Mr. Bartoe, would you come up and make your closing statement on Case Number 07? MR. BARTOE: In closing, I believe that the county has shown the -- the two counts that had been filed in this case. You heard testimony on -- on the valid liens that still exist. I also believe on the second charge, Count II, that he -- he did abandon the job, which in any opinion, is over 90 days and percentage of completion, according to percentage of what the customer's paid, I believe Mr. Blum has been sharpening his pencil on that one and he'll probably let you know in your deliberations what he feels there. And my only other thing in my closing statement, if I was Mr. and Mrs. Llorca, I'd be worried that the heat pump that just got delivered might get a lien put on it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe, come back. Recommendation of county. MR. NEALE: I would -- I would suggest that that wait until -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Common penalty? Okay. MR. NEALE: -- the penalty phase. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Page 56 May 17,2006 Mr. Bowersox-- MR. HAMMOND: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- closing statement on the case against you with the Llorcas? No? MR. HAMMOND: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Kennette, closing statement on, I guess, Mr. Hoyo. MR. KENNETTE: I also agree that the county has shown that the -- Mr. Bowersox' Trojan Pools has abandoned the job, not taking care of the liens, incurring additional costs to the homeowner to get the job completed. And that's about all. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bowersox, closing statement on that case? MR. NEALE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Signified no. Therefore, I need a motion to close the public hearing. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So moved. Joslin. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Second. Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? Aye. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What we will do before we go into our deliberations, let's take a -- an eight-minute break. We'll be back in here at 10:35? 10:35 on that clock, we'll start again. Page 57 May 17,2006 (A recess was had.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to call to order back the meeting, Collier County Contractor Licensing Board. Just to remind you what we're going to do, we have closed the public hearing, so now you're going to hear us talk about each case individually. It will be in two phases; one will be to determine guilt or no guilt, and then there will be a second phase for penalty. Mr. Neale, you want to start off first? MR. NEALE: Sure. In these -- these type of matters, the board shall ascertain in its deliberations that fundamental fairness and due process have been afforded the respondent. However, pursuant to Section 22-202,G,5 of the Collier County Ordinance, the formal rules of evidence as set out in Florida Statutes shall not apply. The board shall consider solely evidence presented at the hearing in consideration of this matter. The board shall exclude from its deliberations irrelevant, immaterial and cumulative testimony. It shall admit and consider all other evidence of a type commonly relied upon by a reasonably prudent person in the conduct of their affairs. This is whether or not the evidence so admitted will be admissible in a court of law or equity. The hearsay may be used to explain or supplement any other evidence in this type of matter; however, hearsay by itself is not sufficient to support a finding in this or in any other case unless it would be admissible over objection in a civil court. The standard of proof in this type of case wherein the respondent may lose his privileges to practice his profession is that the evidence presented by the complainant must prove the complainant's case in a clear and convincing manner. Page 58 May 17,2006 This burden of proof on the complainant is a larger burden in the preponderance of evidence standard set for civil cases. The standard established for sanctions other than those affecting the respondent's license is a that of a preponderance of evidence, however. The standard of an evidence are to be weighed solely as to the charges set out in the complaint as ordinance -- in the two complaints, consolidated as one case, as Ordinance 90-105, Sections 1.4 -- 4.1.3 and 4.1.8,a and b of the Collier County Code of Ordinances. In order to support a finding that the respondent is in violation of the ordinance, the board must find facts to show that the violations were actually committed by the respondent. The facts must also show to a clear and convincing standard the legal conclusion that the respondent was in violation of the relevant sections of 90-105 as amended. The charges are specific and are set out in the two administrative complaints in Case 2006-07, Count I, 4.1.8.1, that the contractor fails to fulfill his contractual obligations to a customer because of inability, refusal or a neglect to pay all creditors for material furnished or work or services performed in the operation of the business for which he is licensed under any of the following circumstances: A, valid liens have been recorded against the property of a contractor's customers for supplies or services ordered by the contractor for the customer's job. The contractor has received funds from the customer to pay for the supplies or services and the contractor has not had the liens removed from the property by payment or by bond within 30 days after the date of such liens. Count II in 2006-07, 4.8.1, the contractor fails to fulfill his contractual obligations to a customer's inability, refusal or neglect to pay all creditors for material furnished or work -- or services performed in the operation of the business for which he is licensed under any of the following circumstances: Page 59 May 17,2006 B, the contractor has abandoned a customer's job and the percentage of completion is less than the percentage of total contract price paid to the contractor as of the time of abandonment unless the contractor is entitled to retain such funds under the terms of the contract or refunds the excess funds within 30 days after the date the job is abandoned. Under case 2006-08, the Count I is under 4.1.3, abandoning a construction proj ect in which he or she is engaged or under contract as a contractor. A proj ect may be presumed abandoned if the contractor terminates the project without just cause or fails to notify the owner in writing of the termination of the contract and basis her -- for same or fails to perform work for 90 consecutive days without just cause and no said notice to the owner. In Count II under 2006-08, 4.1.8.1, contractor fails to fulfill his or her contractual obligations to a customer because of inability, refusal or neglect to pay all creditors for material furnished or work or services performed in the operation of the business for which he or she is license under any of the following circumstances: A, valid liens have been recorded against the property of a contractor's customer, or supplies or services ordered by the contractor for the customer's job, the contractor has received funds from the customer to pay for the supplies or services and the contractor has not had the liens removed from the property by pavement or by bond within 30 days at the date of such liens. B, the contractor has abandoned the customer's job and the percentage of completion is less than the percentage of the total contract price paid to the contractor as of the time of the abandonment unless the contractor is entitled to retain such funds under the terms of contract or refunds the excess funds within 30 days after the date the job is abandoned. These charges are the only one that the board may decide upon as Page 60 May 17,2006 these are the only ones to which the respondent has had the opportunity to prepare a defense. The damages must be directly related to these charges and may not be for matters not related. The decision made by this board shall be stated orally at this hearing and is effective upon being read by the board. The respondent, if found in violation, has certain appeal rights to this board, the courts of this state and the state construction industry licensing board as set out in the ordinance and in Florida Statutes and rules. If the board is unable to issue a decision immediately upon -- following the hearing because of the questions of law or other matters to such a nature that a decision may not be made at this hearing, the board may withhold its decision until a subsequent hearing. The board shall vote based upon the evidence presented on all areas and finds the respondent in violation adopt the administrative complaints. The board shall also make findings of fact and conclusions of law in support of the charges set out. And the board now can -- may deliberate on the charges itself. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have two questions for you before I get started. Number one, you do want an order and a findings of fact for each case. MR. NEALE: We can -- well, we can -- the board can consolidate in the way of drafting the order at this point is a consolidated order on both cases. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, I just name both of them. MR. NEALE: Right. And the -- the finding of fact paragraph that I drafted, and I'll bring it up to you to review, is -- includes all of the charges in both of the -- both of the -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's why I won't use mine. Page 61 May 17,2006 MR. NEALE: Yeah. I'll bring it up. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And then another question -- well, we can do that when I get there. On Case Number 07, just a clarification and then I have testimony to this. The way the charge is written up on the first two pages, it's Count I and Count II. There is no Count II because he didn't charge him with 4.1.3. And I have testimony to the fact that he was not charging him with abandonment, but yet it's written up as two counts and there isn't two counts. MR. NEALE: Well, the -- what the -- the county did in this one is split the 4.1.8.1 into two separate counts, A and B, so they -- they were proving up 4.1.8.1 as to separate sections. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. NEALE: In the other case, they took 4.1.3, separated it out and then consolidated 4.8.1 in the second count. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, 07 I really don't need to treat it as two counts. MR. NEALE: You can because it does have two different elements -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. NEALE: -- both the recording of liens. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Got the A and the B; right? MR. NEALE: Yeah, so-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. With that we are open to board discussion. What are your feelings? Oh, come on. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It's pretty much obvious. I mean, unfortunately, I have to say these things, but accounts that they have him cited for, the failure to fulfill his contract or obligations, that's definitely found guilty for that. He didn't do it. Page 62 May 17, 2006 There are liens and there are creditors that haven't been paid by a proof of evidence. It hurts my feelings in a way. I have to think about this now, just because I do know the gentleman; however, what's right is what's right. What do you think? I did find out, Mr. Blum, also though that he is licensed. He has a license. COMMISSIONER BLUM: He is the licensed holder for Trojan. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes, he is. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Is he the sole owner by the way? Is he the sole owner? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: That I don't know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's a corporation. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It's a corporation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's one of the directors. I agree as well. It's like -- it's like catching the burglar with the stolen goods, walking out the front door, because the liens are there and the liens are self-evident and it can't be tolerated. From testimony I heard, he does a good pool. Mr. Bowersox is not a good business manager, but in his trade he probably does just fine from you're telling me. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. COMMISSIONER KELLER: One of the things that really bothered me in his testimony is when he said that that's why he has the liens against Mr. Hoyo, because he wasn't paying him. And a lien should never be used as a way to get someone to pay you because it only hurts you in the end, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: At the same time as a homeowner, and I'm a contractor, quite often -- especially if there's a lien. If I were a homeowner and a contractor had a lien on my property, he wouldn't get a dime until I got lien releases, and you all wouldn't change it any Page 63 May 17,2006 other way. So, that was a purely valid request to the homeowner. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No question about it. Now, do you want me to take a vote on both cases individually or collectively? Are you talking to Russia? MR. NEALE: Pardon me? I apologize. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you want me to take a vote collectively or individually? MR. NEALE: Take a vote on each count, if you would. In each case, take a vote on each count. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, we do have 4.1.8.1, a, valid liens, and the second part of that same charge is the abandonment of the customer's job, which again in testimony we heard that and the percentage of completion is less than the percentage of total contract price to the contractor at time of abandonment unless the contractor is entitled to retain such funds under the term of the contract or refunds the excess funds within 30 days after the date that the job is abandoned and that didn't happen. So, what are your wishes? I need a motion. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: In accordance with the rules that we are governed by, I propose a motion that on Case 2006-07 against License Number 22764 regarding Count 1,4.1.8.1, Items A, that the defendant be found guilty, and of Count 11,4.1.8.1, Item B, to be found guilty also due to the testimony given and the findings of fact. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Is that a motion? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? I have a second. Page 64 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Joslin. Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion. All those in favor? Aye. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? Now, address. Case Number 2006-08, there are two distinct counts here. One is 4.1.3, abandoning a construction project, which is 90 days with nothing taking place on the project, which we have testimony that that did happen. And Count Number II is the one we just had on the other case, 4.1.1 -- .8.1, valid liens on the project and the abandonment as part of that as well. How do you all feel on that case? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I think according to the same rules that were just mentioned in regards to Case Number 2006-08, against the license holder, Paul Bowersox, License Number 22764, Trojan Pools, Inc., be found guilty of charge 4.1.3 down in construction projects, which is Count I, and found guilty of Count 11,4.1.8.1, Items A and B. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Second. Lewis. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second, Lewis. Discussion. All those in favor? Aye. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. Page 65 May 17, 2006 COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? Mr. Neale, you may read it into the record. MR. NEALE: I shall. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Or do you want to read it for me? MR. NEALE: I can read it and you can have -- the board can then affirm it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. NEALE: This cause came on for public hearing before the Contractors' Licensing Board, hereafter the board on May 17, 2006 for consideration of the administrative complaints filed against Paul Bowersox. Service of the complaint was made by certified mail in accordance with Collier County Ordinance 90-105. The board having heard testimony under oath, received evidence and heard arguments respective to all appropriate matters, hear upon issues, its findings of fact, conclusions of law, and order of the board or findings of fact and conclusions of law at this point as follows: Findings of fact, that Paul Bowersox is the holder of record a Certificate of Competency Number 22764; two, that the Board of Collier County Commissioners of Collier County, Florida is the complainant in this matter; three, that the board has jurisdiction of the person of the respondent and that Paul Bowersox was present at the public hearing and was not represented by counsel at the hearing on May 17, 2006; number four, all notices required by Collier County Ordinance 90-105, as amended, have been properly issued; number five, the allegations of fact as set forth in the administrative complaint Page 66 May 17,2006 as to Count I in Case 2006-07, to wit, the contractor fails to fulfill his or her contractual obligations to a customer because of inability, refusal or neglect to pay all creditors for material furnished or work or services performed in the operation of the business for which he or she is licensed under the following circumstances. A, valid liens have been recorded against the property of the contractor's customer where supplies or services ordered by the contractor for the customer's job, the contractor has received funds from the customer to pay for the supplies or services and the contractor has not had the liens removed from the property by payment or by bond within 30 days after the date of such liens in violation of Section 4.1.8.1,a of Collier County Ordinance 90-105, as amended or approved, adopted and incorporated by reference as findings of fact. The allegations set forth in the administrative complaint as to Count II in Case 2006-07, and I will pass on reading -- rereading those because they've already been read into the record, in violation of Section 4.1.8. 1, b of Collier County Ordinance 90-105 as amended or approved, adopted and incorporated herein by reference as findings of fact. The allegations of fact as set forth in the administrative complaint as to Count I in Case 2006-08 in violation of Section 4.1.3 of Collier County Ordinance 90-105, as amended, are approved, adopted and incorporated herein by reference as findings of fact. The allegations of fact as set forth in the administrative complaint as to Count II in Case 2006-08 in violation of Section 4.1.8.1, a and be of Collier County Ordinance 90-105, as amended, are approved, adopted and incorporated herein by reference as finding of the fact. Go ahead. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I, Les Dickson, as chairman, do affirm that that's what I would have read. I had Mr. Neale read, who is our legal representative for this board due to the complexities of the Page 67 May 17,2006 consolidated cases. Okay. Now comes the bad part. Mr. Neale, give us a guideline. MR. NEALE: All right. As the respondent has been found in violation of the ordinance, the board shall consider and order sanctions under the follow parameters as set out in Collier County Ordinance 90-105 as amended. The board must decide on these sanctions to be imposed and the sections are set out in the codified ordinance in Section 22-203 and then in the revised ordinance in Section 4.3.5. Sanctions which may be imposed include one revocation of the Certificate of Competency, two, suspension of the Certificate of Competency, three, denial of issuance or renewal of the Certificate of Competency, four, probation of a reasonable length, not to exceed two years during which the contractor's contracting license -- activities shall be under the supervision of the Contractor Licensing Board and/or participation in a duly accredited program of continuing education. Probation may be revoked for cause by the board at a hearing noticed to consider said purpose. Five, restitution, six, a fine not to exceed $5,000 per incident, seven, a public reprimand, eight, a re-examination requirement, nine, denial of the issuance of permits or requiring issuance of permits with conditions, and ten, reasonable legal investigative costs. In deciding upon these sanctions, the Contractor Licensing Board shall consider, number one, the gravity of the violation, number two, the impact of the violation on the homeowner in the community, number three, any actions taken by the violator to correct the violation, number four, any previous violations committed by the violator, number five, any other evidence presented at the hearing by the parties relevant as to the sanction that is appropriate for the case given the nature of the case. Page 68 May 17,2006 The board shall also issue a recommended penalty for the State Construction Industry Licensing Board, the state penalties that may be recommended are recommendation no further action or a recommendation of suspension, revocation or restriction of the registration of the respondent's license or a fine to be levied by the State Construction Industry Licensing Board. The board may at this time take testimony as to the sanctions. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe, you don't need to go to the podium because the public hearing is closed. What is the county's recommendation on your case? MR. BARTOE: On my Case Number 07, I'm recommending restitution to -- we have liens to tear care of in the amount of $8,498.88, and after total moneys already spent by the Llorcas, pool equipment and labor, the bid they have, the screen enclosure bid, the baby fence bid, total for the liens, and these bids they have, came up to an extra $18,432.38. However, at this time, the pool heater's been delivered, the pool pump's been delivered, some Aqualink equipment. Mr. Joslin might have an idea what that is worth to substract from the figures I just gave you. If not taken care of within 60 days, we recommend his permit pulling privileges also be suspended, and if this is not taken care of within 60 days, a revocation of his license. As far as a fine, I'm not concerned about that and the investigative fees. We can let that slip by in this case. That covers my case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Kennette, I need for you to come to the podium. He's got a microphone there, you don't. MR. KENNETTE: Yes. And I also recommend that a fine of 2500 for each count, his license put on hold for 60 days for payment of the lien on the property with a notarized letter sent to the homeowner stating that that lien has been paid off of $2,835.55, Page 69 May 17,2006 reimburse the homeowner the additional cost for the added items that were on the contract of$7,027.68. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Say that number again. MR. KENNETTE: $7,027.68 and county costs of 150 for preparation. And also license on hold, no permitting privileges, and if not done within 60 days, a revocation of his license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Board members, what are your wishes? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Ifwe don't revoke his license, there's an additional part that bothers me that I think is at the heart of a lot of his trouble, is his lack of understanding about contract and legal Issues. I'd like to see him take the business law test over again. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. I don't have a problem with that either. I didn't hear any testimony, except what maybe resulted from frustration after a long, over a year of dealing with him, that he does bad work. I haven't heard any complaints about bad work. And if we shut him down, all of these people and relatives and others that are out there get nothing; whereas, if we can save him and he comes out of this, like he says he's doing better, I would not be happy with just a 60-day suspension. I would like to see about a two-year probation, that we watch him, which falls back on the county, I know, but you have other cases coming. And I'd rather save a contractor than bury one. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: 60 days suspension of his license? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sixty days suspension of any new permits -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Any new permits, okay. I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- until he satisfies both of these problems, but then a two-year probation after that, which ifhe doesn't have any problem in that two-year period -- Page 70 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER KELLER: I'm a little bit concerned about the other liens that we know are out there and this -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: Can't do that. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: No, can't do that. The concern, yes, we can. COMMISSIONER KELLER: It was hearsay. Can I-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, we can-- MR. NEALE: You can -- you can consider the hearsay . You know, it obviously did not have any relevance in the decision of the case, but you can consider it for, you know, limited purposes. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Well, we're looking at the magnitude of the problem. MR. NEALE: And, certainly, the gravity of the problem is something that the board can look at. COMMISSIONER KELLER: If this is just the beginning, then we need to take that under consideration in how we handle it. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Suspension of his license, if we do that, which I don't -- don't know that it's good or bad at the moment, but if we fall into the suspension of the license, suspending his license privileges, if he's this far in debt with suppliers, number one, with the liens, number two, now possibly the fines, number three, ifhe's already in this trouble at the moment and he's digging himself out, so he says, taking away his permit privileges is going to pretty well shut down the new work business, which if the profits are already spent on the old work, then there's not going to be a way to recover profits to help pay back some of what he owes. So, I don't know that suspending his license and stopping his work -- work force from working is going to be a way to -- to help him at the moment. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm trying to save the -- if we're going to try to help him, safe the contractor, then we're going to have to put him on a tight -- a tight rein no doubt. Page 71 May 17,2006 But I'm not sure if suspending the privileges right now is going to work. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Well, I mean, you're in this situation and you go out and sign and get down payments from more people to payoff other liens, then where does the money go to pay to do the other projects? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I understand. COMMISSIONER KELLER: So, that's what I'm very worried about. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I understand totally what you're saying because that really shouldn't be happening anyway. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah. He's going to be on a cash basis. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: He's using somebody else's money to payout, which is over -- which is what he spent, that's true. Now, he did say he had money and that he can pay these liens off now, as of now. He did say that, I believe the testimony was, so -- COMMISSIONER KELLER: Well, yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I -- I agree with the suspension because it's new permits. It is not existing permits. He can still work on those jobs. Suspension of new permits for 60 days until this is -- these two cases are resolved so that he doesn't go out and sign contracts and take draws away from people, and then all of a sudden we've got those people in here. The probation -- I'm speaking to you as well at this point. Probation means that these guys call, you answer the phone, you return the message, you respond, the cases that you have out there, where you have some problems that you know about, boy, you better get those cleaned up, because if a contractor comes back before this board on a new case under a probation license, they're not going to walk out with the license. Page 72 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER BLUM: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This is dead serious. MR. HAMMOND: Okay. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I -- I totally agree with you on the suspension for a limited time; however, I'm -- I raised the idea that the biggest thing in my mind is these liens. Now, ifhe's able to take care of the liens, I would say bring us proof in two weeks that every one of these liens are satisfied, two weeks, clean up the liens, and then back off a little bit on the suspension possibly to show us that he's going to take -- he's going to make these people well as far as the liens against their homes, which to me is just a blatant display of bad business. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Can we -- can we --let's see. Can we reopen the hearing just as far as to ask him that question to see if it possible that he can pay these off, then if he can -- MR. NEALE: That's not even reopening the hearing. That's taking testimony as to -- as to the penalty phase. COMMISSIONER KELLER: What about the other liens that we've been told about with the brother-in-law? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Again, it's not here. We can't do that. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: We're looking at what we can look out -- and I would ask that Mr. Bowersox, is it possible for you to pay off those -- I'm not really certain of the total amount. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He has to come to the podium. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: But there is a good sizeable amount of dollars and cents right now that are liened as far as this property goes. MR. HAMMOND: Right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I do -- these -- both these properties, and I do know that if you have other bills, indebtsments Page 73 May 17,2006 that you have to Gorman or to Krehling that are -- that are for other jobs per se, I know Gorman and Krehling both can break those down and you can payoff that -- MR. HAMMOND: Right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- portion for that particular problem -- MR. HAMMOND: Right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- and get a release. Is there something that can be done? MR. HAMMOND: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: And can it be done within a two-week span -- MR. HAMMOND: Yes. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- that Mr. -- it can be done. MR. HAMMOND: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wonderful. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. That's all I wanted to know. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, then I'm going -- I'm going to propose along with the staffs recommendation that we see proof within two weeks of this date that any and all liens on these two properties that we're having -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you making a motion? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Start it. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which case? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Well, we're taking them together, so I want to -- I'd like to joint the two cases as far as the liens. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you want to put them together? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. Page 74 May 17,2006 MR. NEALE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: As you go through your motion though, the restitution, the -- I mean, let's -- let's nail everything down before we go into the motion. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Good idea. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I want to address the restitution phase on both cases before we do the motion. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Go ahead. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Particularly the eighteen thousand four thirty-two on the first case, but now he's delivered a heater, Aqualink, those other items which I assume are paid for. And I get the impression Mr. Bowersox does not want to lose his license, so I don't think that's going to be a problem. What are the -- what are those worth? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Dollars and cents to me, a second hearing will give you a number. We've got Aqualink, we've got -- COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Mr. Chairman? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- the heat pump. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: While Mr. Joslin's adding some stuff up, let me throw something out at you here. Do we know if Mr. Bowersox, number one, is -- is willing to go back and complete the job that we're talking about at the -- at the Llorcas? And, number two, do the Llorcas want him back there? I mean, they've -- they've troubled through this for a long, long time. Frankly, my opinion of this is that they'd just as soon hire the person they got the estimate from and have them do the job and finish it up. And I would suggest that Mr. Bowersox just his material back and get his money back. COMMISSIONER BLUM: It's almost done. The job's basically Page 75 May 17,2006 done except for the gate. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mrs. Llorca, would you come up to the podium, please? It's kind of complex. We usually don't to the two at one time. MRS. LLORCA: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you rather just end it now and go your way and get it finished up or do you want -- what's your desire? MRS. LLORCA: Actually, I would say that my desire would probably be for Mr. Bowersox to finish it due to self-preservation. I know that if I finish it, I probably won't see that money again. I have had no complaints with his work. So, the best bet for me and the cheapest alternative for me is if Mr. Bowersox would finish the work. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And part of your contract is also there's a warranty period in there and a service period? MRS. LLORCA: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I would venture to say Mr. Bowersox probably is going to become one of finest contractors around for the next few months. MRS. LLORCA: Absolutely. I haven't had any complaints with the work that he's done because he did do good work. He just didn't finish it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Thank you. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Makes sense. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Just thought I had. What about the screen enclosure? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Well, she could still -- he could still contract the screen enclosure but she could pay the bill. That -- that money is still out there in the open, I think. Is that what we figured out? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's part of the restitution period. Page 76 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER LEWIS: I figured that's the dollars for restitution. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. I see what you're saying. Ifhe goes ahead -- COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah. Because they're going to pay the delivery amount that's paid. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But he's going to pay off the lien, then the screen enclosure people would do the work. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. And then -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Correct? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- there's then enough money left, we hope, for the screen to be paid. COMMISSIONER BLUM: She's contracted -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: She's contracted for it. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, the -- the screen has got to be backed out of the original contract and the difference in dollars be refunded. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: See, he's already been paid more than what -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: -- it will add up to. COMMISSIONER BLUM: That's why I come up with the -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: By $2,000? Is that what it is, that we came to? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: One at a time, please. This lady will go crazy. Someone nail a figure for me. COMMISSIONER BLUM: The original contract was fifty-nine nine. If you back out the $14,250 for the screen, the original contract's value, to my mind, would be 35,650. She's paid a total of 47,920. To me that shows that Mr. Bowersox owes this lady $13,270. Page 77 May 17, 2006 He still has to install the baby fence, he still has -- COMMISSIONER KELLER: Just 1,200. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Well, no. That's in the -- that's-- that's -- ifhe does the baby fence and refunds 13,270, he's okay with that. The job has to be finished and final permit inspection. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: So, what you're saying is -- is Trojan finish the job minus the screen cage and pays the Llorcas how much? COMMISSIONER BLUM: 13,270. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: 13,270. COMMISSIONER BLUM: If someone wants to double check my math. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That would be if they pay for the screen enclosure. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Right. If the Llorcas finish the screen enclosure. MR. HAMMOND: Right. But those numbers -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I got -- you have to come up here. MR. HAMMOND: Right. But those numbers aren't -- that can't be correct. The total price is what; 59? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Fifty-nine nine was your contract pnce. MR. HAMMOND: Okay. And then minus -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: And you had a -- you had a screen built into that price. MR. HAMMOND: Right. That was minus 14,000 from 59? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Sure, because that's what it's going to cost her to put the screen up that you're not doing, that you aren't going to do, I'm assuming. Do you want to take on the burden of the screen? Page 78 May 17, 2006 MR. HAMMOND: No, no, no. I'm just saying what -- what was the numbers you just -- it seemed like their math is off, well, wrong. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Well, okay. That's why I'm asking. To my mind, she's paid 47,920. That's how much money you've got so far, according to Mr. Bartoe. MR. HAMMOND: Right. COMMISSIONER BLUM: That testimony. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: But if you back the 14,599 total-- COMMISSIONER KELLER: It's 45. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- that's only a $45,000 contract now. MR. HAMMOND: You said 35. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Oh, I'm sorry. See, that's -- I told you to check me. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. So, that leaves about $2,000 difference between the two. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Right. COMMISSIONER KELLER: 3,000. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: If they -- if Mrs. Llorca pays the-- pays the screen -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: Right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- enclosure. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Right, right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: He owes them -- he owes the Llorcas -- I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Excuse me. Forty-four six fifty. COMMISSIONER KELLER: 2900. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: $2900? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah, $2900. Excuse me. Yeah. No. No. Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mrs. Llorca is agreeing with all that we're saying. Page 79 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: She probably knows to the dime. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, she does. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Twenty-two seventy. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have a seat, Mr. Bowersox. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Twenty-two seventy -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mrs. Llorca, come up here. COMMISSIONER BLUM: -- is the number. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Take out the screen enclosure, you contract directly with him and get it done, how much are you out? MRS. LLORCA: I would be out -- let me tell you. It was -- it was about $2900 -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. MRS. LLORCA: -- that we would be paying extra, not including the liens. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. In other words, what -- MRS. LLORCA: Not including -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: We've overpaid him at this moment. MRS. LLORCA: I have overpaid him. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. MRS. LLORCA: And that's ifhe takes care of the baby fence as well. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. And he takes care of the baby fence. MRS. LLORCA: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And he should get finals, make everything perfect, $2900, and you do the screen enclosure. MRS. LLORCA: That's fine with me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are we happy? MRS. LLORCA: We're happy. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Do you have a bid on the baby fence? Page 80 May 17,2006 MRS. LLORCA: I got a bid for $1,225. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's going to get that done though. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: No. He's got to get that. Let's take it all out. Let them handle that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How much? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: $1,225. COMMISSIONER BLUM: You got to add that to what he pays. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, we're going to add that to the 29. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MRS. LLORCA: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thirty-one twenty-five -- forty-one twenty- five. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Right? MRS. LLORCA: That's right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, you payoff the liens. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, the other-- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Pays the Llorcas forty-one twenty- five? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Now go to the other case. COMMISSIONER BLUM: No, wait. Let's -- until we get this nailed down. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Actually that isn't right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, I thought we did. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Well, let's reiterate it until we got it right. MR. NEALE: I'm going to have to write this order and I wasn't sure I've got it right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're just getting it ready to present an order. We're not there yet. Page 81 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yeah. We haven't done it. COMMISSIONER BLUM: We're talking forty-one twenty-five reimbursement to Mrs. -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Restitution. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Restitution, right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. COMMISSIONER BLUM: We're talking she will then do her own baby fence and pool cage. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yeah. COMMISSIONER BLUM: And that ends it as far as except -- excuse me -- final -- final inspection and approval. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. That which still falls on him because the permit would still be -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: He's got to get that -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It's still open. Now, is the permit still open? Is the permit still active? COMMISSIONER BLUM: That permit is still good, I think. MR. BARTOE: I cannot tell you for sure. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's got -- he's got until July 3rd. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. COMMISSIONER BLUM: That one's okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: July 3rd. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Can we ask Mr. Bowersox ifhe can get this done before this permit is finished? MR. HAMMOND: Yes. Yes, I can. COMMISSIONER BLUM: For sure. MR. HAMMOND: I -- I also -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The answer was yes. MR. HAMMOND: -- have the child fence in stock so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The answer was yes. Page 82 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: You do. MR. HAMMOND: Yes. COMMISSIONER KELLER: What's the time frame for the restitution? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: And who puts it in? Who installs it? MR. HAMMOND: I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wait. Ifhe's going to make testimony, you've got to get him up here. Come back up. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's a procedure we've got to follow. MR. HAMMOND: Okay. The child fence I have in stock if she wants me to put it up. We are certified through the child fence company to put it up. MRS. LLORCA: That's fine with me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. 2900. Don't leave. Come back here. 2900 . You'll payoff all of the liens and you'll finish this pool and make it perfect. MR. HAMMOND: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. That takes care of Mrs. Llorca. COMMISSIONER BLUM: The liens we want paid off within two weeks. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Two weeks. We've already got that. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: We already got that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We got that. COMMISSIONER BLUM: And then this will be done, complete, and she'll have her 2900, and we'll have a final inspection and approval before the permit runs out in July. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Right. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Okay. Page 83 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, go to the next case. And we've had a request of a fine of 2500 times two counts, so that's a $5,000 fine. Personally, my opinion on that, if he survives all this, he'll be Houdini. I don't care about a fine. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I don't either. COMMISSIONER KELLER: I don't either. COMMISSIONER BOYD: I don't either. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Forget the fine. Do you all agree? On, come on. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: We're not done yet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I want the people taken care of. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Wait, wait, wait. We heard from Mr. Allen -- let me -- Mr. Bartoe, Mr. Ossorio, are you -- what are your feelings on the fine and administrative costs on both cases? Give us an aggregate. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You didn't ask for either one. It was Mr. Kennette. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I know. But I'm asking -- MR. BARTOE: Correct. I agree with -- with Mr. Dickson. You know, the gentleman has plenty of promises he's made money wise. I can't see hurting him any more. Let's get the people taken care of, if we can. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: The other -- the other thing that I stated on the second case is that we have testimony that -- rebuttal testimony that says that someone got some free concrete so far on the sidewalk. There was no contract, there was no -- but there was a verbal -- maybe a verbal agreement, so I think Mr. Hoyo has gotten the $2500 paid back in a sense, if there's no contract and he's not Page 84 May 17,2006 going to get paid for it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Hoyo, come to that microphone right there. I feel like Judge Judy up here. Did you get anything for free? Be honest with me. MR. HOYO: No, I did not, sir. And I have not gotten anything for free. All my payments are documented, plus per the contract. Mr. Kennette, I've been working with him very closely on this. I'm so exhausted with this pool project. I just want it done. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, we aren't putting you two back to gether. MR. HOYO: No. There's no question about it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It won't happen. MR. HOYO: I've been very, very, very, very, very patient and got me nowhere. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, there was never any mention of any other concrete work or sidewalk or cement work -- MR. HOYO: No, sir. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- to be done other than up and above that was on this contract written. MR. HOYO: My contract is here. I have presented all my evidence. Mr. Bowersox knows well off what we spoke about. He is incorrect (sic) about the knee wall situation with the screen. I told him that whatever that cost would be, I would pay for it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that in this restitution figure? MR. HOYO: No, it is not, because the restitution -- the knee wall is on me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So, you have liens of twenty-eight thirty-five fifty-five. MR. HOYO: I have to look at the numbers. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I want you to. Page 85 May 17,2006 MR. HOYO: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're not -- we're -- I agree. We don't go back to this house. We're going to try to make you whole and you go on. And I want you to -- MR. HOYO: There -- I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And then check the restitution figure, too, seven thousand twenty-seven sixty-eight. MR. HOYO: Okay. I'll take a look at that. The -- the lien from Gorman is two thousand eight hundred and thirty- five fifty-five. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. HOYO: That's what's on my home. You wanted me to check what? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The restitution figure. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Wait a minute. Is he going to contract the baby fence and a pool cage on his own now? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. He's on his own. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, that has to be removed, that cost from the initial contract then if he's going to do that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's why I'm checking the restitution figure. COMMISSIONER GUITE: On the proposal from Graham screen rooms, it says the outside walls would be ten feet in height. So, apparently this proposal does include the entire wall. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that the written in area? MR. HOYO: That's correct. COMMISSIONER GUITE: No. This is on -- on the proposal from Graham, E-l1. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Graham-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, that's the one he made. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: That's the one he made though. Page 86 May 17,2006 MR. HOYO: That's correct, yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's the one he kept in. MR. HOYO: That is correct. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: That was the original one from Bowersox. COMMISSIONER GUITE: No. This is the Graham proposal for the screen room is ten foot long. But his was eight foot. So, there is a price difference in the $18,200 screen. How much it is? I don't know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Talk to me. MR. HOYO: The difference? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Uh-huh. MR. HOYO: I would not -- it would have to be calculated in square footage. But, yeah, that included the knee wall at that price, so that has to be adjusted for that extra because obviously it wasn't stated in Trojan Pools' contract. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where am I getting to this $7,000? Tell me. MR. HOYO: You're getting it -- if you look on page -- what page was it? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, just tell me. MR. HOYO: It's in the case summary that was given to me by Mr. Kennette. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Did Mr. Bowersox' proposal for the screen room also include the handrails and the railing on the steps and -- and the three-by-six area of Florida glass, does -- did his include that? MR. HOYO: His proposal did conclude handrails that had to be code. COMMISSIONER BLUM: To your knowledge, what was the amount of your original contract? How much of that was the screen enclosure that you originally agreed to? Page 87 May 17,2006 Do you have any idea of that value? MR. HOYO: He did not break it down. It was a 43,000 total cost. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Go back to my original question. Justify the 7,000. What page am I looking at? Either you or Mr. Kennette. One of you answer my question. MR. HOYO: The third page. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Huh? MR. HOYO: The third page. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tell me. MR. KENNETTE: Let me tell him. MR. HOYO: Yeah. MR. KENNETTE: Okay. The total contract was for 43,000. He paid him $30,100 per checks. The pool cage wasn't completed, which left a balance of 12,009 that he -- that he owed them for final payment on completion of the contract -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. KENNETTE: -- which he hadn't paid him. He contracted to do with the pool cage for $18,200. He has a bid to do the baby fence for $877.68. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: One more time on that. MR. KENNETTE: The baby fence. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: How much? MR. KENNETTE: $877.68. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. MR. KENNETTE: A final survey of $250. Refinish the pool deck after the cage was installed, $600. And the lien, of course, was $2,835.55. With the minus of all of that, it gives a total of additional costs of seven thousand twenty-seven sixty-eight. Page 88 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER BLUM: That's -- that's skewed because it's -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's skewed. COMMISSIONER BLUM: -- the complete 18,000 and we don't know -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: What, the difference in the wall height? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. Well, the wall-- yeah, and the original -- I mean, if Mr. Bowersox needs to tell us -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Someone's got to know the difference in the wall height, one of you two. Which one? MR. HAMMOND: Well-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Come up to the podium. I want to get this thing done. MR. HAMMOND: What do you want to know? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What's the difference for this two-foot wall height? MR. HAMMOND: Well, the cost. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Cost. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Ten-foot walls, there a new two- foot kneehole. Well, how are we getting to ten foot? MR. HAMMOND: Well, now you've got to go by square footage and it's probably around nine bucks a square foot, so I don't know the square footage right offhand of what he would have there. COMMISSIONER BLUM: He said it was -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you want me to pick a number? COMMISSIONER BLUM: -- 40 by 60. MR. HAMMOND: No. That's the other one. His is probably -- probably 20 by -- probably 20 by 55 or so. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, a thousand square feet times 900? COMMISSIONER KELLER: Isn't that 20 -- Page 89 May 17,2006 MR. HAMMOND: But that's -- you're going to do two foot by -- you've got, say, 110 and then 40, so you've got 150 times two is 300 times nine is 2700 bucks. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I'm going to -- I was going to say probably you're looking at $3500 ball park -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. That's what I thought. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- to upgrade to 10-foot walls. MR. HOYO: I have no knowledge of that. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Mr. Bowersox, when I was -- mentioned railings and the three by six Florida glass you were kind of shaking your head. MR. HAMMOND: Right. The railings was -- he -- he wanted those afterwards. He says, can you get your screen guy to put railings up? And I said, well, when they're here, just ask them to put them up. They're not to code. They don't have to be there because he's only got three risers. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Right. MR. HAMMOND: Anything over three, you have to have them. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, what's the dollar value of that? MR. HAMMOND: Oh, probably about 200 bucks a piece. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Thank you. Now, so, Mr. Hoyo, get your lien taken care of and we get you $4,000, are you a happy man? MR. HOYO: I want to be done with this and enjoy my pool. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Did you guys hear that? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Done. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 4,000. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: 4,000. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Take care of the lien, $4,000 restitution. Page 90 May 17,2006 Are we ready for amotion? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Does anybody go along with me? I -- I feel strongly about this retesting on the business law. I really do. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I feel very strongly about that. This man needs to learn how to do business. I mean, we hear nothing but good things about his ability, but -- COMMISSIONER GUITE: I think it will only help him in the long run. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Schooling is wonderful. COMMISSIONER BLUM: When's the last time -- when did you take your test? How long ago? MR. HAMMOND: 2002. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Four years? Do you agree you might need a refresher on business? MR. HAMMOND: Sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let's do it, guys. Who's got all this put together? I do if you want me to shoot it. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Do it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I move that -- do you want me to break these out, Mr. Neale, or consolidate them? MR. NEALE: Consolidate them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I move that, first of all, that there be a 60-day suspension on new permits on this license until the following has happened: That all liens are removed from both properties immediately -- within the next two-week period, and those figures from Mr. Hoyo's property, $2,835.55 will be removed, and that the three liens -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Eighty-four ninety-eight eighty -eight. Page 91 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- on the Llorca property of 8,000 -- $8,498.88, that those be removed within two weeks, that on the Llorca property that this will be totally complete to include the baby fence. Mrs. -- Mr. and Mrs. Llorca will contract directly for the screen enclosure, and we will get final permit and make this custom -- both these customers happy. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: How long? Have you got a time there? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got 60 days to get it down, but I want it -- really want it done faster. MR. HAMMOND: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: These are nice people. MR. HAMMOND: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And they still want you back. Make friends. That -- on both cases, that Mr. Bowersox be required within the next six months to take, and successfully pass with a grade of 75 or higher, the business and law portion of the contractors' testing. On Mr. Hoyo's property, that there be a $4,000 restitution. This will be paid by cashier's check -- it's really better money orders. Cashier's checks are getting -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Paycheck-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, they're bad. Don't take one. By money order, $4,000 made out to Mr. and Mrs. Hoyo, delivered to county. Correct, Mr. Bartoe or Mr. Kennette? MR. KENNETTE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Delivered to the county. The county will in turn deliver it to the homeowners. That happen within two weeks. And that this license be under probation for two years. Any further action will be dealt with harshly and accordingly. Page 92 May 17,2006 At the end of two years, we pray and we hope that Mr. Bowersox has got it cleaned up and back to running successfully. Did I forget anything? MR. BARTOE: Did you -- did you mention the Llorcas' 2900 restitution? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, thank you. Yeah, $2900 restitution to the Llorcas. What else, guys and lady? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Just for the general principals of the case, both cases, and how it happened, I'd like to see about a $2500 fine. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. No fines. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: No fines? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's my motion. No fines, no administrative costs. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Ifhe -- ifhe takes care of all of this within two weeks, can he go ahead and start pulling new permits? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He satisfies all liens and makes restitutions on both of these properties, as soon as that's done, the suspension of new permits will be lifted. COMMISSIONER KELLER: And there are no further complaints filed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, then he's under probation and we deal with those accordingly. Okay? MR. HAMMOND: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's my motion. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Second. Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? MR. NEALE: Just one question. Ifhe -- you've got a two-week lien removal provision. Ifhe's not -- ifhe does not accomplish that, does that -- would you consider him Page 93 May 17,2006 in violation of probation and bring him back in? Is that the -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That would be -- to reiterate, yeah. Any of these things not happening would be -- constitute a violation of probation. You would come back immediately before this board at our very next meeting. Discussion? All those in favor? Aye. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? Unanimous. Would you read the order, Mr. Neale? Good luck. MR. NEALE: Sure. Based upon the findings of fact and conclusions of law, pursuant to the order, authority granted in Chapter 489 in Collier County Ordinance 90-105 as amended by a vote of eight in favor and zero opposed, majority vote of the board members present, the respondent was found in violation as set out on the vote. Further, it is hereby ordered by a vote of eight in favor and zero opposed, the majority vote of the board members present, that the following disciplinary sanctions and related order are hereby imposed on the holder of Collier County Contractors' Certificate of Competency, Number 22764, one that a 60-day suspension on the pulling of permits in Collier County, and I would suggest that you add the City of Marco Island as well and the City of Naples -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. Page 94 May 17,2006 MR. NEALE: -- will be suspended for 60 days while pulling of all permits is suspended until the following items are accomplished: First, all liens are removed from both properties within two weeks in the amounts of $8,498.88 on the Llorca property, and 2,000 -- what's the number on the Hoyo property? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: 4,000. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: $4,000. Restitution? MR. NEALE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 4,000. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: We're not doing liens, just restitution. MR. NEALE: Liens right now. No. Removal of liens. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Yeah. 2,000-- MR. NEALE: Yeah, but it's got to be in the order. MR. KENNETTE: The lien is two thousand eight thirty-five fifty-five. MR. NEALE: Okay. And on the Hoyo property of$2,835.55. If the removal of these liens is not done, then he is deemed to be in violation of probation and will return at the next board meeting for appropriate resolution. On the Llorca property, the contractor is to complete the contracted job except for the screen cage and get final inspections within 60 days. He is also to pay $2900 in restitution to the Llorcas in money orders. Restitution on the Hoyo case, he will pay $4,000 in money order, delivered to licensing staff within two weeks. All restitutions take place within two weeks. He is to take and pass a business and law test within 60 days, and his license will be under probation for a period of two years. Should he complete all of the required items at any time during the 60-day period, the suspension on the license is lifted; however, the Page 95 May 17,2006 probation will continue for the period of two years. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The only thing I would change is complete all items except for the six-month passing of the business law. MR. NEALE: Oh, it's six months for business law? I thought it was 60 days. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Six months. Gives him time to study and also find appropriate testing. Do you agree? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: If I could address Mr. Neale? The way that you read that, is that Mr. Bowersox is going to be responsible for both the $4,000 restitution and the release of the $2835 lien? MR. NEALE: Right. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: It's not what we said up here. MR. NEALE: I thought that was what was said. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah, it is. MR. NEALE: Yeah, it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, it is. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Uh-uh. Look at your packet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which one? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: On -- on the Hoyo. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hoyo is twenty-eight thirty-five fifty-five and $4,000 restitution. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Well, the $4,000 restitution also includes $2800 lien fee in there. So, you're banging him twice. So, you're right back to what you originally had in there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, because we didn't put the lien fee Page 96 May 17,2006 in when he did the calculation back through again. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: It's right here. Just look at your third page of your packet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Kennette? MR. KENNETTE: It's included. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Case Number 08. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What, sir? MR. KENNETTE: The lien was included. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: In that 7,000 fee. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, then we are banging him twice. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Yes, we are. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Lewis. That's not our intention. We want to make everybody whole. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: All we have to do is change it to where the owner takes care of his own lien. That way he knows it's paid. Done deal. And we'll just give him the $4,000 restitution. MR. NEALE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Talk to me. Mr. Hoyo -- MR. KENNETTE: Well, we want to make sure the lien is paid but we also have the -- the overrun of the cage and other items that are not -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. In the overrun, we ended up being 7,000 which that didn't have the $2800 lien in it. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Didn't have the deduct for the two- foot walls or the railings either -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Exactly. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: -- which is where we came up with that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And we came down to four. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: 4,000, which included the $2800. MR. HOYO: That would not -- COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah, but 4,000. Page 97 May 17, 2006 MR. HOYO: I would still going to be getting hurt because I have to pay for the -- the difference in amount of the screen cage to what I owed less than the contract. It's going to be a lot more. Even if you deduct, if you calculate -- and, by the way, I didn't pay $9 a square foot for my screen. I paid $7 and change for my screen. So, I mean, if we're going to do that exact calculation, then I think it's only fair to me that I don't get hurt with what I would have to pay. I mean, I -- I have no problem -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I want you to pay for the extra on the screen enclosure. MR. HOYO: It's a bite, but I'm not going to take the whole bite. I'm sorry? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I thought we were there. What happened? MR. HOYO: I thought we were, too. I thought it was 4,000 restitution and he pays the lien. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: No. MR. HOYO: That still doesn't cover all my costs. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Did the seven -- the $7,000 didn't include the lien involved, what was owed yet, the 2835? That was part of the 7,000? MR. KENNETTE: That was part of the 7,000. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: "Don't bring me two cases at the same time again. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: And it also included $600 for the refinish of the deck after the cage is installed, which I don't think should be even part of Mr. Bowersox' deal if -- if the owner is taking care of installing the cage. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Exactly. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: So, you know. I mean, but -- I mean, he needs to work out -- why you would have to refinish the Page 98 May 17,2006 deck, I don't know, but that's beyond the point. But the -- the figures add up to seven thousand twenty-seven sixty-eight, including the twenty-eight thirty-five fifty-five in and for the removal of the lien. That also includes $18,200 for the new pool cage, which is the cost to put the cage up now, including the two-foot high wall extension, which we determined to be approximately $2700, and the two railings, which were not per code and not included in the contract at $200 each. So, if you take the 2700 and the 400 and add them together, you've got $3100. If you take $3100 off the 7,027, that's where Mr. Dickson came up with four grand. And the owner removes his lien and finishes the job. That's what I thought we were doing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And that's correct. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Is that clear, Mr. Hoyo? Did I -- did I lose you there? If you look at the third page of the -- of the packet, composite packet? MR. HOYO: Could I have a minute to do a calculation? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We'll get it right here in a minute. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Why would -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Missed a couple other things. No. Let's just let him look at this map. I want this thing in bed. Mr. Neale, put Richard Joslin on there to sign the order-- MR. NEALE: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- when you type that up and send it to Maggie. You'll need to go over and do it. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll be gone. Page 99 --- ..-..----.... May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: How long are you going for? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Three weeks. MR. HOYO: It's not in there. The screen is not in there. The screen is not in that calculation. It gets -- it comes within nine thousand eight sixty-three twenty-three. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I didn't think it was in there either. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: I'm just going by what it says. It says it's in there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Not that. Our recalculation. MR. HOYO: If you add up eighteen two? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you happy with that? MR. KENNETTE: Yes. He is right. That wasn't in there. MR. HAMMOND: I don't know. I don't know how he can walk all the way around his house on brand new concrete. MR. KENNETTE: That's right. It wasn't -- it was not in there. I think -- I'm looking at it. MR. HOYO: I would like to address something because I don't like being called a liar. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I don't need that. MR. HOYO: I know. No. I know but why would he come redo my concrete in February ifhe said I hadn't paid him for it? That's just CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. The case is over with. I don't need this. Okay. The case -- the thing's been read. It stands. It was passed and approved. That is the order of the board. Are you clear on everything, Mr. Bowersox? MR. HAMMOND: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Please make these people happy. Please don't come back in here. You're a good contractor. MR. HAMMOND: I don't want to be here. Page 100 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're a good contractor. Treat them right. Okay? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Do you -- do you seriously feel -- can I ask you in good conscience -- you -- I didn't see you taking notes, but, I mean, do you have an idea of what your -- what your dollars are here and -- MR. HAMMOND: Yeah. COMMISSIONER BLUM: You can deal with this. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You will get a copy of this in the mail. He'll have it typed up. It will be signed and it's sent. MR. NEALE: Within -- within two weeks. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Within two weeks, you'll have it all in the mail, so just start doing it now. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: As long as I have often seen how this board -- I've been on this board for several years, quite a few years. And you are today one of the luckiest men in the pool business. I know. COMMISSIONER KELLER: In any business. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: You are lucky that you're walking out of here with a license. MR. HAMMOND: Thank you. COMMISSIONER BLUM: They will tell you what my -- what I would normally do, and I hope you can do this. COMMISSIONER KELLER: And if there are others out there, deal with them. Don't come back. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're a good contractor. I want you to treat them right. Let's go. That one's over with. Going back -- no breaks. MR. NEALE: And, Mr. Dickson, Ijust want to make sure that I'm clear. It's $4,000 he satisfies his own liens? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. Exactly the way you read it. Page 101 May 17,2006 MR. NEALE: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He satisfies the lien. The order did not change. MR. HAMMOND: One thing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Come to the podium. Rose, this is okay . You don't need to take it. MR. HAMMOND: He mentioned that once the liens are paid off and restitutions are paid, then I'm allowed to permit -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. MR. HAMMOND: -- within two weeks. Okay. And then what about the permits that are in there now? I have some already applied for. MR. BARTOE: I believe you said the suspension was on new permits. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yep. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It has not come out yet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's immediate. MR. HAMMOND: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They're on hold. MR. HAMMOND: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They can't come out. You could get this resolved in two days. MR. HAMMOND: If I get it -- right. In, Say, tomorrow, then I'll be able -- okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Exactly. MR. HAMMOND: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Want everybody paid. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, before we get into the workshop that might take, you know, 30, 40 minutes, there is someone here that's on the agenda -- not on the agenda but wants to get on the agenda, Charles T. Payne. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Charles who? Page 102 May 17,2006 MR. OSSORIO: Charles T. Payne. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, Tim Payne? MR. BARTOE: Tim Payne, and just add him to the agenda. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's who I was going to. MR. BARTOE: Add him to the agenda. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's who I was going to back under discussion. MR. OSSORIO: This is an unusual case. I tend not to bring these up to the licensing board until we have a full application and credit report and we can look at this in a -- in a -- in an investigative manner, so we could get some good decisions. But, unfortunately, this is time -- time is the essence due to the fact that I don't think that we might not meet in June, so it would be sometime in July. We've issued a stop work order at 1600 Fleischmann Boulevard, which is located in the City of Naples, which is the City of Naples property . And it appears that the City of Naples has entered into a binding contract with an unlicensed contractor out of Winter Springs, Florida called Team Pain Enterprises, Incorporated. And Mr. Payne is here today to talk to you about what his business is and how it relates to not being a contractor and -- and maybe he can persuade the licensing board to waive the testing -- I know that's an uphill battle and I know that he's been -- he's aware of that. But with that said, he's still here to present his -- his case to show you his experience in concrete form in place and he has some photographs and documentation to back that up. And right now we'll introduce to you Mr. Charles Payne. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tell me what work he's doing. MR. OSSORIO: The job was shut down. I'll give you some information. Page 103 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Right over here, Mr. Payne. MR. OSSORIO: The job was shut down due to the fact that he -- there was a -- a skate park and with that, I want to give you some information so you can look at it, the photographs I've taken yesterday, so can you make a -- either affirm the stop work order or tell him to get a license for concrete form in place of which you can look at Page 15 on our ordinance to refresh your memory. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And it does require inspections? MR. OSSORIO: If it requires inspections, yes, it does. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Is it structural? MR. OSSORIO: Yes. But who's doing the inspection, that's up to the city and the city is here to discuss that if you need to discuss that at length. I did not issue a stop work order for no building permit. I'm going to let the builder official with the city handle that. But if you were in the county, you bet you, we would require a building permit. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: This -- this is something through the City of Naples that has a contract for? MR. OSSORIO: That's correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And we govern -- we handle their cases. COMMISSIONER BLUM: This is going to get involved. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you need to go? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Soon. Real soon. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Payne could probably walk you through the photographs I have and maybe -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Payne, yeah, go ahead, do -- first of all, state your name, and I'll have you sworn in and then you just take the lead, buddy. Page 104 May 17,2006 MR. PAYNE: Yes. My name is Charles Timothy Payne and I live at 864 Gazelle Trail in Winter Springs, Florida. (Mr. Charles Payne was placed under oath.) MR. PAYNE: I do. I'd really like to take the time to thank you guys for taking me on on such short notice. I got notified yesterday at 3 :00 o'clock that we had this option to do this. To give you just a brief history of who I am, you know, I was born and raised in Orlando. My grandfather ran for mayor in Orlando. I grew up in the construction industry. At the age of 12, I started skateboarding and building tree houses all over the place. And because I knew how to build tree houses, I started building skateboard ramps. I started having local competitions in my backyard. I started building ramps at other people's houses by the time I was 17. My backyard started getting regional interest in magazines, local magazines, and people would come from Atlanta, North Carolina, Tahoe in my backyard to compete. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Cut -- cut to the chase. MR. PAYNE: Well, I'll cut to the chase. My company, Team Pain Enterprises performs services all over the world; China, Japan. We built the X-Games that you see on television. My company was on the Monster House Discovery channel. We're on the field channel like all the time. Basically, we perform a specialty service of building skate parks only. We have special rules in our company that only skaters are allowed to work in our company because you have to understand what you're building and the only way to do that is to actually test it. We're a design build company where we design the product and we skate it and we build it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How long -- how long have you been Page 105 May 17,2006 in business? MR. PAYNE: I've been in business as a corporation for ten years. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where have you built skate parks? Let me start asking questions. MR. PAYNE: Can I approach the bench and give you some literature? I -- I spent hours last night at Kinko's developing -- like I __ CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, but we're not going to spend hours today looking. MR. PAYNE: Oh, no. No, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me ask you some -- listen to me. MR. PAYNE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me ask you some questions. Where have you built these things? MR. PAYNE: Lancing, Michigan, Brackenridge, Colorado, Aspen, Colorado, California. We just recently finished a project in Belgium where the -- the country pulled our visas and pulled our work permits and they're real strict -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you built any in Florida? MR. PAYNE: Yes. Built ten parks in the same manner. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where? MR. PAYNE: Ten. Lake Vista in Tampa, Satellite Beach, St. Augustine, North Port right up the road, Sarasota 30,000 square foot park. MR. NEALE: And I think -- Mr. Payne, eXcuse me, if I may. Mr. Payne appears to have a fairly extensive presentation here that would probably answer a number of these questions, so -- MR. PAYNE: Yeah. I'm on the Ed Stan Committee -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I just don't know that we're going to do an extensive presentation today, Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: Well, it's just he's got it written here and it may be Page 106 May 17,2006 quicker just to refer to it, for the board to refer to it. MR. PAYNE: Yeah, and it's just ten minutes. I mean, it's not like a 45-minute presentation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Listen, I've got people that have been waiting now for three hours. This is new business that was put on. That's why I'm trying to limit this, as to whether we're going to proceed. Go ahead and -- MR. PAYNE: Well, it's been a standard practice for the city to pull our permits and allow us to work in their government entity since we work all over the United States. We're so frantically working back and forth. We have two wood crews and two concrete crews that are doing work everywhere. You know, and like I said, we're working for the X -Games, we built all their features. You see them on TV. That's who we are. We built the stuff on Jack Oss. You watch that program on MTV and -- MTV Sports and Music Festival, if you guys have seen that, you know who we are. I mean, we don't owe anybody any money. We have a $370,000 bond on the project. We have an A-7 with our insurance company. You know, we're licensed as far as the fact that I have a contractor's license in Colorado. Colorado granted me a specialty contracting license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Only talk Florida to me. MR. PAYNE: Oh, only talk Florida? Well, we started building skate parks, the first skate park was in Satellite Beach in 1989. And the city made provisions for us to build it because of our specialty service. As skaters and builders, we're sought out across the nation. Like I've been worldwide because of who I am, you know. That's-- COMMISSIONER GUITE: Could I interject for one minute? Page 107 May 17,2006 MR. PAYNE: I don't do any advertising. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Are there any codes on skate parks? MR. PAYNE: No. I'm currently on the -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wait just a minute. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Staff, are there any codes on skate parks? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I want to hear from the city. Would you come up and introduce yourself? MR. HAMMOND: Actually, I -- for the record my name is Bill Hammond. I'm director of the building department for Collier County. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need to have -- I don't need to have him sworn in. MR. NEALE: Unless he's -- ifhe's going to testify. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I'll have you sworn in. (Mr. Bill Hammond was placed under oath.) MR. HAMMOND: Yes, ma'am, I do. Just I was trying to put -- at least put the staff -- the staff perspective for Contractor Licensing for Collier County in this in that -- in that in the staffs -- in the staffs position, regardless of whether or not the city required a permit for this, Florida Statute 489 requires contractor license -- licensed contractors perform construction. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Exactly. MR. HAMMOND: That is normally -- that is normally performed by the issuance of permits. Now, the -- the Florida Building Code does allow a building official to determine whether or not some types of work require a permit. It's a very narrow, very limited range of options. What -- whatever mechanism the city used to decide that a permit may not have been required in this; that is, that -- that's the city purvIew. The contracting licensing's purview and the county's provision is Page 108 May 17,2006 that construction was performed under Florida Statute 49 requires a licensed contractor to do that. The items that -- that Mr. Payne builds are engineered, they are structures, they are for public accommodation and that they're -_ they're -- there is a specific requirement that that type of work be performed by licensed contractors under Florida Statute 489, thereby that's why Mr. Ossorio issued a stop work order. Whether or not a permit or any inspections may be of -- you know, the City of Naples is going to be performing those is -- is that-- going to be their responsibility to enforce the requirement __ requirements of the Florida Building Code. Our responsibility was to enforce the requirements of Florida Statute 489. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why is there not a general contractor on this job? MR. HAMMOND: That, sir, we'll have to get the city to determine why they chose not to do this. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because what I'm looking at here is very similar to one that's built -- that was build out in Golden Gate that was done under a general contractor license. MR. HAMMOND: Yes, sir. I believe there may be a representatives from the city here to discuss that for you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me see the city come up. MR. WALLACE: I'm Ron Wallace. I'm the director of Construction Management for the City of Naples. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. I need to have you sworn in in the front. (Ron Wallace was placed under oath.) MR. WALLACE: I do. Maybe I can give you a little bit of history. Fleischmann Park, there's general contractor on Fleischmann Park. It's a $4 million improvement project. Part of that was to build a very unique upgraded Page 109 May 17,2006 skate park facility. We had gone out through the states, CC and a process to design build through an RFQ selection of -- to try to find a -- a skate park contractor that specialized in this type of work. Team Pain was selected based on their qualifications, upon their experience, upon the fact that they could provide engineered structural drawings and certifications for construction. We did not put together a design and go out and bid this project. We bid -- we went out and selected a contractor based on qualifications. They had provided a structural engineered submittal to us. We brought it to our building development. The building department building official reviewed it and said, this does not fall under the Florida Building Code, does not cover skate parks. You've -- they reviewed the plans. We in turn had the contractor, Team Pain, perform -- they were going to perform soil testing, geotechnical testing, concrete testing and have the same design engineer certify construction. The reason that we're here before you today is because they are not licensed to do what the county is asking for, which is form in place concrete work. We understand that there -- this is a venue to -- for you to look at this to see if it is -- fall under some exempt category or some specialty type work. We're not here to ask for anything -- anything different than anybody else would or wouldn't. It's strictly at your judgment. It is a unique proj ect. I know Mr. Payne put together a brochure for you all and there's -- there is quite -- excuse me -- quite an extensive work that they have done. They have been in business for ten years. They have done quite a bit of work in -- in Florida. We've had this conversation with the Page 110 May 17,2006 county, why this issue hasn't come up before in other municipalities. We have contacted the other municipalities and it is kind of a gray area. And I think what they have done is tried to work with them through different -- either different contractors or through their own licensing procedure internally to -- to recognize the type of work and -- and to get it done. But, again, we're -- we're here only to ask your indulgence in -- in reviewing this and, you know, obviously we will abide by whatever -- whatever the -- you decide. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I want to hear from Mr. Neale. These are the guys that keep us out of trouble. Are we out of our realm? MR. NEALE: Well, if the staff has determined that -- that it requires some sort of license in order for them to operate, the appeal process is to this board. And I'll ask Mr. Zachary to weigh in on this as well, but -- because he has to interpret it on behalf of the county. I'm interpreting it on your behalf. There is -- and I -- having just looked at this, I have no idea what appropriate license would be other than potentially a general contractor's license because of all the various elements of this. There is one potential option under the code that I can see and it's in Section 22-189, which addresses restricted Certificates of Competency in that this board does have the pour to issue a restricted Certificate of Competency to a applicant for a certificate in a particular trade, which certificate is restricted to certain aspects of that trade where the applicant has satisfactorily demonstrated that he or she is qualified under this article in certain aspects of that trade but lacks the required experience in other aspects of that trade. We -- we do not have a category for a state skate park contractors, nor does the state, nor does anybody else that I know of. So, that is the area where there could be a license issued. It Page 111 May 17,2006 would still require Mr. Payne to submit an application and pay the licensing fee for some category of license. Mr. Ossorio and Mr. Zachary can probably come up with something there, then he would be subject to discipline and control by this board and so the board would have oversight. Because of the -- the issue of not having a meeting next month, and it would be 60 days before he could come back before the board could find that he could issue -- they could issue a restricted certificate, staff could review the application for sufficiency under that and under the guidelines set forth by this board. And then they could issue a Certificate of Competency on a limited basis to him. That's the only -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why are we -- the only reason we're not -- we're saying we're not having a meeting next month is because this room is going to have construction in it, is it not? MR. OSSORIO: I have no idea other than we're just not going to have this room. And we will discuss that in our workshop. MR. NEALE: But -- yeah, I'm just -- whether -- whether or not -- I mean, the delay issue, I'm sure, is significant to the city. MR. PAYNE: It's significant. And that's one thing that Mike didn't tell you is we've already got $100,000 into the project. And we've got specialists on site from Oregon and Colorado here working on the proj ect. So, what -- what you guys aren't aware of is that there's only one specialist on the east coast that's recognized as a -- you know, a specialty construction worker by the Skate Parks of America and ISKA Association. They're the International Skate Park Association. And we're recommended worldwide by those company. The other three companies, two of them are in Oregon and one's in California. So, we're the only people on the east coast that can do this service. It's back up by people. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I -- I understand and you have a very Page 112 May 17,2006 impressive brochure and -- MR. PAYNE: And plus the fact -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me -- MR. PAYNE: Oh, I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very impressive brochure and lots of documents. I don't care about stuff anywhere except the State of Florida -- MR. PAYNE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- because I held a general contractor's license in Indiana and could build a 50-story building although I've never even built a shed. So, what happens in other states doesn't matter. What happens in other counties in the State of Florida makes no difference to us in Collier County whatsoever. MR. PAYNE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We pride ourselves on a lot of things here. MR. PAYNE: If we made a -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But I don't -- I don't like-- MR. NEALE: If I may just -- the board may consider experience in other jurisdictions in making these determinations. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: My problem is, is I'm getting a structural concrete with drainage crammed down my throat to look at in ten minutes and I'm supposed to approve it. I don't like this. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Where you're going to have -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't appreciate. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- young children and possibly in a state park, you've going to have kids going in there, they're going to be playing, but could get hurt. And we -- we're giving you the power to do it, and that way, sir, I feel good about that. MR. WALLACE: One thing I do want to say is I do understand Page 113 May 17,2006 the last minute and we apologize for that. Unfortunately, we just found out we had this avenue yesterday. Mr. Payne does have crews onsite. He's rented three houses in town. They've got a 12-week window to build this before they leave the country. That is in itself no reason for you obviously to approve, but it is the reason why we're here at the last minute. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Bill, you're my general contractor. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: First question, Mr. Wallace? You said there's a general contractor on the job? MR. WALLACE: Yes. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Is there some way to try to eliminate this problem, keep you moving? Is there some way that you can tie this under his general contractor because then they can higher him as subcontractor. It may cost you five percent on your GC's but it's going to keep you moving, because right now I tell you, frankly, the board needs to know this, too, I'm -- I'm leaning to tell you, you know, you're going to have to go get a licensed contractor. MR. WALLACE: Well, and I understand that. And we tried to look at some different ways to have him either get on board with -- with another the contract, but what we've found from the county's position is that since we have a contract directly with Team Pain, that's where the problem lies. Because we have to follow the purchasing procedures that you folks follow as well, we couldn't arbitrarily reassign this contract to somebody else without going through the process. That -- the purchasing side of it is probably as difficult for us to get around, and as the licensing issue is. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: It's probably going to be that way on both sides. It's hard to say. Because it's pretty clear that the board would refer to our Page 114 May 17,2006 licensing in, I think it's 90-105? License Number 1.6.3.9 is -- I believe that might be what Mr. Ossorio has conducted here. It's a concrete forming and placing contractor, which is licensed by the state and the county -- or, excuse me, the county. Thirty-six months experience with a passing grade of the three-hour test and a passing grade of a two-hour business and law test. It means those who are qualified to patch and mix aggregates, cement and water to agreed specifications to construct forms and framework for the casting and shaping of concrete to place miscellaneous imbedded steel and to pour, place and finish concrete. This category does not include the plastering of an interior of a pool. There's a license available. MR. OSSORIO: Yeah, but code is not supposed to be specific. It's supposed to be broad as possible so that you can interpret it. When you say skate parks, you could build a widget, but the -- but the apparatuses are there. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: That's right. MR. OSSORIO: And that's exactly what we're seeing. Since the city said that no permits were required, therefore, a specialty contractor can do the work and there are exams for him the next couple weeks. Matter of fact, we have a Gainesville Independent Testing here today. He can give him all the information he needs. But the correlation when the city hired a unlicensed contractor that's a hurdle. That's a big hurdle to get over. I don't know how the city wants to work it, how they're going to reframe it. A general contractor can take over the job. That's pretty simple, but the general contractor cannot hire a subcontractor who's not licensed. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: That's right. You'd have to be-- MR. OSSORIO: So, he will still be in violation of that code. Page 115 May 17, 2006 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. MR. PAYNE: That was the problem when this project went out to bid. D. N. Higgins was the general contractor for the whole project and the city thought it was unfair to allow him to bid on that project, so that's why the whole process went back out to bid. So, the -- you know, Naples is actually several months behind in the process because of all these matters. It was our wishes if that was an option to work under Higgins, you know, that would be no problem for us to -- to try and comply with that. Our testimony is we have built ten other parks in Florida in the same manner, which have been counter, you know, approved by the cities' engineers and their permitting department and we've had our own structure engineer provide paperwork to sign off on the structure. You know, there's nowhere in the code books that tells you what a skate park is or how high the coping is supposed to be set or what the tolerances are. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: How about the concrete or how far apart -- MR. PAYNE: The thickness of the concrete-- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- the seal is? MR. PAYNE: Right. Yeah, well, that's why everybody that's looked at our product has said it's a waiver bill. We're doing five and five and a half inches of concrete that's 4,000 PSI with number three rebar on one foot centers that's tied, you know, every cross-over. We're doing number four ties to stainless -- not stainless steel coping but galvanized metal that's in the wall. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me -- let me just -- MR. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, once again for the record, if I may, Bill Hammond of the -- you know, director of the Collier County Building Department. The -- the Collier County Building Department has full Page 116 May 17,2006 confidence that -- that the structure under the supervision of -- of -- of the licensed Florida professional engineer and Mr. Wallace's staff in the -- in the city building department will be -- will be built in accordance with its design and specifications and will be a structure that -- that, you know, that will serve the purpose for which it was designed and intended. That's -- that's truly not our issue at all. But, by Mr. Payne, the fact that he's got designs, that he's got concrete, that he's got form work, that's he's got steel, he's building a structure. And -- and -- and I don't see a way to -- for us to get around the fact that Mr. -- that Mr. Ossorio legally issued a stop work order for unlicensed construction activity by an unlicensed -- or construction activity by an unlicensed contractor. So -- so, that -- the quality of his work, I don't believe is going to be in question by anybody. It's just the -- it's to the method in which it's occurring, you know, under -- under the jurisdiction of Collier County that -- that, you know, that we're going to -- we're going to have satisfy there. But with in regard to Mr. Joslin's concern about the -- the adequacy of the construction, I -- I truly have full confidence in Mr. Wallace's staff in the city to make sure that occurs. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Does the city have a licensed contractor? MR. HAMMOND: I can't answer that question, ma'am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If I may, the-- MR. WALLACE: Has the city a licensed contractor for? COMMISSIONER KELLER: Does the city have a licensed contractor? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: In house. MR. WALLACE: A GC on staff? No, ma'am, not that I'm aware of. Page 11 7 May 17,2006 One -- one point I think I should make from the city's standpoint, too, because we don't anybody to think that we were trying to do something here that wasn't on the up and up. When we went ahead and went through this qualification process, our contract for this work does state that the contractor needs to get all necessary permits, licenses, that are -- you know, and the rest of that. But why we're here today is -- the question is that this fell into a category or an exemption and we're here asking that question. If it does not, then the contract that the contractor has with the city requires all the necessary permits and licensing. So, again, it's unique because it is a skate park. You can see what the gentleman's building. It does seem to fall out out of the building code, but we're really simply here asking the question. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: 90.105 is pretty clear about it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I know. That's the -- that's the problem we have as a board. It has nothing to do with this gentleman's company. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Nothing. I mean, I'd seen his packet -- I'm sorry to interrupt you, Les, but, I mean, it's an amazing -- amazing situation to be accomplished a lot in the years and -- and by the looks of the pictures that I seen in here of the work in place and also the work being placed -- MR. PAYNE: Right. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: -- you're doing a wonderful job. MR. PAYNE: That's an issue that every city goes through. Usually I deal with the city council on a lot of issues. Ten years ago I made a video and it was a 20 city documentary video that covered skate parks and how they were built that spoke with city managers, city engineers, the city attorneys, risk management and how they operated and created a facility. And this is part of the battle. If you put out a bid, construction bid, to contractors that aren't Page 118 May 17,2006 specialized in the service, you're not providing the community with a skateable surface. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What's the license -- what's the license he should have, state certified; GC -- COMMISSIONER LEWIS: GC. I don't think there's a -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- or a county form? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: -- county form in placement. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, he could be a building contractor, he could be a general contractor, he could be a concrete form placing contractor. And I tell you, ifhe was a pool contractor, we might say, okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Poured in place or -- MR.OSSORIO: Yeah, but something. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Or he could get state certified as a residential GC. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: It would be a building. MR. NEALE: Because it's commercial. MR. PAYNE: Is it not possible for me to get a specialty license CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you not -- MR. PAYNE: -- based on my ability? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you not read from this board it isn't going to happen? MR. PAYNE: I was granted it before in the State of Colorado and I was -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't care about the State of Colorado. MR. PAYNE: And I was -- okay. And I was, you know, given permission to work in ten other cities in Florida and Tallahassee, our state capital, which I have letters of reference from all those Page 119 May 17,2006 companies that said we provided an invaluable service, and without our service, they couldn't have built the structure they built and it brought them nationwide -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And -- and I had -- that's why I say it's nothing with you, but I've heard from our building department, I've heard from licensing, I've heard from our legal department, and for this board to grant a specialty license, there's just no way that you qualify. MR. PAYNE: I can't transfer my license from Colorado? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Of course not. COMMISSIONER KELLER: I'd like to try and find a way to keep the work going because my kids want to get out there. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I mean, there's no doubt the children need some place to play. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah. I mean-- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It would be obtain ideal, but under the circumstances too bad it's an after the fact situation. It's happened, not while beforehand. If you had come here before -- MR. PAYNE: Well, in all my literature that I provided to the city, it was straightforward that we did not have a contractor's license and they were going to take care of these issues for us. Now, you know, it's gotten to this point where we got the notice to proceed, we started construction on the site, we got a lot of money out of pocket. If this happens, I've got to send people home, you know, to Colorado, to Oregon, to Jacksonville. You know, we have a lot of staff onsite. We've got to get rid of the housing, put the machinery back. I mean, this is going to devastate me. COMMISSIONER GUITE: The exam is in two weeks. MR. PAYNE: And you're going to have extensive damage to the site. You're going to have washout on the site, you're going to have all Page 120 May 17,2006 kinds of -- we did not put the retention wall up, nor the drainage or bring in the compactable fill D. N. Higgins did that. So, all of the basic work was already done and that wasn't permitted. There was no permits on that. And that's a structural retention wall at six foot tall. We were brought in for nonstructural, poured in place concrete. We're not putting parking garages on it. We're not building towers. We only build skate parks. That's all we do for 25 years. COMMISSIONER GUITE: I -- I do agree with that statement that he just made, that I don't think it is a structural concrete driveway or a footing or something like that. It's only to skate on, with filling it full of water. It's a total different ball game with any other type of construction. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Before we go any further, when he raises his hand, I want to hear him. MR. NEALE: Under 22-181, Subsection C, 2, exemptions. Public works. The provision of this division shall not apply to any construction, alteration, improvement or repair carried on within the limits of any site, the title to which is in the United States or with respect to federal law supersedes this article or to an authorized employee of the United States, this state or any municipality, county or other political subdivision. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ooh, why are we listening to this? MR. OSSORIO: I don't think it's a public works. MR. NEALE: If it's held by the -- who owns the property? MR. WALLACE: The City of Naples. MR. NEALE: It's a public work. COMMISSIONER BLUM: That ends it. Bye. MR. HAMMOND: Once again, for the record, if I might say, there's -- there's many years of precedence that counties and municipalities pull permits from their building departments to perform construction unless it's otherwise exempted by the Florida Building Page 121 May 17,2006 Code. Collier County pulls -- pulls permits to build every building that they build. They pull the permit to do the renovations for this building and -- and the new courthouse that's coming up. The City of Naples pulls permits on itself to do work in their own utilities department and everywhere else, so that definition of public works in -- in my professional opinion is not applicable here specifically. It's -- it's more along the lanes where the Florida Building Code exempts utilities and roadways and transportations from the Florida Building Code mostly like -- more along the lines of TECO and FPL. MR. NEALE: I mean, I'd be -- I'd be willing to research the issue, but -- you know, I would say that -- and, Mr. Zachary, you may want to weigh in because you represent the county but, you know, absent rereading this and doing some research on it, it appears that it could be deemed by this board a public work or in the alternative the board could issue the restricted Certificate of Competency. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me ask you a question. MR. PAYNE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Someone else did the drainage, someone else did the fill and the pack. MR. PAYNE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And someone else set the engineering, the rebar, you're just doing the -- MR. PAYNE: No, no, no, sir. No, sir. It was in the provisions in this proj ect. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Specifically, answer my question. MR. PAYNE: Specific, we are going to dig the site out, we're going to set -- the same people, not different crews. It's the same people from start to finish. We're going to excavate the hole, we're going to put the forms in, we're going to install the rebar. Page 122 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why did you go through -- what did I hear before, that someone else did that? What was that all about? MR.OSSORIO: Well, there's one particular wall, if you look at the picture, I -- MR. PAYNE: There's a retaining wall. MR.OSSORIO: There's one six-foot wall there but that was about it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That had nothing to do with what we're talking about. MR. PAYNE: But that's the retaining wall for the skate park. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, there were four bids on this job. One wasn't licensed and who would that be? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The low bid. MR. OSSORIO: And who would that be here today? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: No doubt. MR. WALLACE: That's the only thing that I'm going to taking offense to because that was not part of the qualification. It wasn't a low bid process and it wasn't based on who didn't have a license and who did. COMMISSIONER KELLER: I couldn't imagine. I don't know who the other bid was. MR. OSSORIO: Nothing personal. It's fully generic. When I called the person team, they said there was four bids on the project. I didn't look at the bids or with the -- you know, the clarification, what was done, but it appears that if on face value that the only person that wasn't licensed was here today. Now, I don't know what the bid process was or how you came to that conclusion. I'm only going on what your staff said. MR. NEALE: I would suggest that the board disregard that testimony because it's assuming facts not in evidence. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: At this point I've heard all about I want to hear. If it's not a public work, we're not going to issue a Page 123 May 17, 2006 specialty license. Do you agree? Is that the feelings of the board? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I don't think we have a choice. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do a motion. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Motion to deny. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What do we do, Mr. Neale? We can spend all day on this. MR. NEALE: Yeah. You know, Mr. Zachary may want to comment but, you know, the board's -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Zachary. MR. ZACHARY: Well, my -- my comment is I'll defer to Mr. Hammond about as to public work, but I think it could be a broad definition if it's in a public park. I could certainly argue that it's a public work if it's some sort of -- some sort of thing being built there. That's about all I've got to add. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Lewis. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: I think he needs a license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All the way down, all the board. MR. NEALE: I would suggest that because of the -- this issue -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR. NEALE: -- that the board because of this should do a full finding of fact and conclusion of law and take a motion on this matter. MR. PAYNE: It's only fair to me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It wasn't even a case. Would not a motion suffice? COMMISSIONER KELLER: I don't think we have enough information. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We didn't really hear a case. MR. PAYNE: You didn't hear a case? It's something that's been done before it's tried, proved and tested and-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm talking to him. It had nothing to Page 124 May 17,2006 do with you. MR. PAYNE: Yes, sir. MR. NEALE: It certain is something that probably is not going to end in this room. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, no. MR. NEALE: And, so, therefore, there needs to be a good record made. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll follow your advice, sir. COMMISSIONER BLUM: There's going to be a lot of ramifications here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, but if it's public works, he can go to work. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Well, I don't think it would. COMMISSIONER BLUM: It can come back on us. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Explain to me again. What -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It's going to make -- allow an unlicensed contractor to work for the City of Naples no matter what we do. I said I don't believe that we're going -- we're going to probably hear more ramifications from this whole testimony of what's going this morning because I don't think it's going to be in our best interest to promote a unlicensed contractor to work in this town or it's going to open the door to many, many more, not unless there is a way for Mr. Neale to tell us that we can be exempt from this and it can happen. I know this is going to be a -- I'm sure, going to come back and haunt us. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Well, the facts -- in fact, Mr. Joslin, you're correct. You know, the bottom line is the guy -- the guy is holding himself out for hire. He's not an employee of the public works, which gives you the exemption to do the work. So, I mean, basically, it doesn't get any clearer what we have, and our -- our amendment 90.105 states that -- specifically, that he needs a Page 125 May 17, 2006 license to do the work that he's doing, whether it's for a skate park or whether it's for a pool or whether it's for a retaining wall for a pond or whether it's just for a decoration, it doesn't matter. And I think according to the public's health and safety, which is why the board has put -- the county commissioners have put us here, that we need to consider that extensively even though there are going to be those that are going to be upset and mad at us, I -- you know, I agree. I wish there was a quick way that we could revolve the situation and get it satisfied to all parties, but I don't see it happening with us. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I think maybe if there was more time and more information provided to us, if we had more time to review the information and the facts, possibly we could make a better decision. But at this moment, we don't have that. MR. NEALE: The board does have the ability if they wish to defer this matter on the basis of requiring -- requesting further information. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Maybe that would be the better way to do it. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I -- I got to say I have a lot of faith in the city's process of hiring this gentleman. We all agree that his packet is impressive, his testimonies are impressive. It just seems that there's a real -- just a fine little line here that we've got to find a way to handle, but I mean if I was just looking at it logically, I would have to say why not, just based on what I'm hearing. COMMISSIONER GUITE: But there are no specific codes to building a skate park. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I know. COMMISSIONER GUITE: I mean, if we were worried about the public's health and safety, the city could save a lot of money and put up a sign saying, no skateboard allowed, because there is danger in Page 126 May 17,2006 a skate park. I remember when I was a little child, I, you know, lost a tooth or two because of that. But I just -- I think it's just part of the public works and I think we shouldn't even be hearing this. If you want to just let the city -- if the city is comfortable with him doing the skate park, I think that's -- it should fall in the city's court. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I'm going to totally agree. COMMISSIONER KELLER: I agree. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: I disagree. Your law states it clearly and we're governed by law to uphold that law and -- and we can't just come in here and haphazardly change our -- our -- by our opinions and just because it's the City of Naples. What if it was Kraft Construction coming in and asked for the same thing, what would we tell him? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I agree. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: What ifit was -- what ifit was 16 other contractors from 16 different states coming in here with a general contractor's license from Indiana or a general contractor's license from Colorado or somewhere else? What are we going to tell them? The same thing that I think we should tell this gentleman is that he needs to be licensed to do the work. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a motion? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I'll make the motion. At this moment in time with the information we have before us, I make a motion that we deny. The man needs to be licensed. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Deny what, Mr. Joslin? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Deny any further work that goes on without a licensed contractor on the job. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What do you want, Mr. Neale, specialty license or exemption? Page 127 May 17,2006 MR. NEALE: I think, yeah, that the board basically is -- since there's not a formal application, is denying a waiver of licensure requirements, licensure testing requirements and other requirements for this applicant even though there's not a formal applications. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, what do you do, put that in the form of amotion? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. Is that satisfactory? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: That's satisfactory. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: I'll second that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? COMMISSIONER BLUM: I for one disagree. I disagree with the process. I disagree for the information. I disagree that -- the whole process to me is -- is not correct from start to finish. I know there's a time line, I know there's a rush to judgment for a lot of reasons; financial and all those things. In good conscience, I don't think I can put forth any vote the way it stands. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Well, I don't want this to be an expense of the city either, so -- taxpayer and the city, I'd like us to consider the financial ramifications of stopping work. I don't know. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Can I weigh in on some important facts that might help -- help the board members clear their heads a little bit? Get -- get away from the entire picture. Our -- our call up here is whether we today issue a temporary or a restrictive license without any testing requirements, without any -- any kind of application, without any -- anything, so this man can go out and work in Collier County. Think of how many times we've had that come before the board. Think of how many times we've denied it at this board. That's what we're here today to do. What happens because of what we do is not our fault. We're here Page 128 May 17,2006 to uphold the laws, the statutes and the ordinances that have been approved in this county by our commissioners. COMMISSIONER GUITE: But normally when people come before us like that, ask us that question, they want to -- they want to set tile or they want to do framing or they want to put on roofs, they don't come here saying I want to build a skate park that nobody has any codes for and nobody knows how to do it. I mean, how many skate park contractors are there in the City of Naples? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Which is even more the point. It's not the skate park that we need to look at. It's the work that he's performing, which is the placing and the finishing of concrete and rebar or reinforcing steel. That's what -- that's what he needs to be licensed for, not to build a skate park, because you know what, I don't know what all is involved with a skate park. And I'm sure not going to give this gentleman or anybody else that I know -- COMMISSIONER GUITE: And I believe ifhe took the test, it probably wouldn't -- it would be superfluous. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: To what? COMMISSIONER GUITE: To what he's doing. I mean, I'm sure that the testing isn't -- has nothing to do with the skate park, placing concrete in the skate park. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: It's placing concrete not in a skate park. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Ifhe was placing concrete in a swimming pool, then it's a different story. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: And by giving him a temporary license, you're going to allow him in the County of Collier to go place concrete no matter what he's doing. And that could be a lanai, it could be slab. COMMISSIONER GUITE: I really don't believe -- I really don't Page 129 May 17,2006 believe that that's what he's going to do. He's-- COMMISSIONER LEWIS: I can't help that. COMMISSIONER GUITE: -- not in that business. He's -- COMMISSIONER LEWIS: It's all conjuncture. COMMISSIONER GUITE: -- in the business of skate parks. I think it's just a -- COMMISSIONER LEWIS: It's all conjuncture. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Well, I think we also have to consider the -- the City of Naples, the due diligence they did on this company, and, you know, I imagine if there was extensive background checks and -- before the contract was signed. So, you know, probably more work than we do when we consider an applicant. And I don't know. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Well, there is a motion. Do we have to vote? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're in the discussion stage. MR. NEALE: If I may, Mr. -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm letting everyone have their say. Did I get a second? MR. NEALE: Do you have a second? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yeah. MR. NEALE: If I may just bring up the one point of the way it started with the restricted Certificates of Competency, is the board can issue a Certificate of Competency with significant restrictions on it, so that's something that -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: We could issue a certificate to do this job, only this job, and is it possible for us to request that we have a inspection process even though it's not permitted? But if we issue the certificate, can we have our people do inspections? MR. NEALE: Well, it appears that they're going to have a certified engineer inspect it already so -- Page 130 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can I kind of follow up where Bill did? This is not the Code Enforcement Board. This is not the park's beautification. It's the licensing board. What do I say to every licensed contractor that could build this skateboard park? What do I say if we approve the license? I'm sorry. It's the city's problem. It's this individual's problem. It's not my problem because it doesn't meet county ordinance. Black and white, plain and simple, it's not up to this board. Take it back to city hall. You guys work it out. I'll never vote for this. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It's not because we don't want it. It's not because we don't want to see the city go ahead. Weare -- we are bound by this -- this pieces of paper that we are sitting up here trying to enforce. And if we do not enforce this, we might as well not be here. And whether it's the city, whether it's the county, whether it's anyone else coming before us and wanting special privileges without some kind of information or something that gives us something to go on up here, there's no way it's going to happen, not in my mind. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It has nothing whatsoever to do with you. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: No, absolutely not. No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're not the issue. You can get a license so quick. You're sharp enough to do it. Stop all this nonsense forever. Get a state certified license. I know that doesn't help you now, and I really do feel bad about that. But I'm governed by what we got to do. Any more discussion? Call for a vote. The vote is to deny. All those in favor? Aye. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. Page 131 May 17,2006 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hands. All those opposed? Three. I'm sorry, but it did pass. Application submitted to the board for review for a special license came before public hearing, Contractor Licensing Board, on this date for consideration of the application submitted -- or presented, not submitted, the board having heard testimony under oral, received evidence and heard arguments respective to all appropriate matters, thereupon issues its findings of fact, conclusions of law and order the board as follows: That Tim Payne did make a request to the Contractor Licensing Board for a special license ends 843, that pursuant to Section 22-184,b of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Ordinance Number 90-105 as amended, application does not appear to be on its face to comply with the requirements of Section 22.184 for licensure and the contractor Licensing Board has referred this was -- this was referred to the board for a decision. The board has jurisdiction over this matter. Mr. Payne was present. There were no notices because it was heard impromptu. Number five, the facts of this case are found to be that the applicant did not meet the criteria for a special licensing as set out in Rules 61,g,4-15.005 and 61,g,4-15.004 of the Florida Administrative Code as amended. The application does not have enough -- that one doesn't apply. Not reinstatement. That enough, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Based upon the foregoing facts, the board conclusions that the applicant -- has not met the standard set out in Ordinance 90-105, and based on a vote of five in favor and 3 Page 132 May 17,2006 opposed to deny a special license or waiver, that this application was not granted on this date. Enough? Put Richard Joslin on there and get him to sign it. I am sorry. City hall has got a problem and you got a problem. You guys have got to find away. MR. PAYNE: I'm just wondering how it's coming to surface now because we couldn't have been more direct on our approaching. We've been working with Naples for three years on this project. COMMISSIONER BLUM: That's between you and Naples. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I wish we had known about it three years ago. COMMISSIONER BLUM: We probably could have fixed it three years ago. MR. PAYNE: I've got a folder that I need to get. You guys didn't have the literature. MR. NEALE: Mr. Payne, I think most of it is here. MR. PAYNE: No, sir. That's not it. MR. NEALE: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The licenses? MR. PAYNE: No. It's a manila envelope. Yeah, here it is. All right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sorry, Mr. Payne. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, let's go ahead and start the proceedings on the -- amending the -- the ordinance. Hopefully it will be short and sweet. COMMISSIONER BLUM: May I be excused? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've got one that's got to go for a previous board meeting. MR. OSSORIO: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How long do you think this is going Page 133 May 17,2006 to be? MR.OSSORIO: If the Code Enforcement can wrap it up in a few minutes, I would say 20 minutes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That was a nasty one, Michael. MR.OSSORIO: Yeah, it was. That was. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let's go. MR.OSSORIO: I'd like to call Dave Scribner. Dave Scribner is a Code Enforcement. I believe he is a managing supervisor for Code Enforcement and he's going to introduce some environmentalists to discuss what's been transpiring for the last couple of years on the tree service contractors and we believe we have one speaker as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How are you doing? MR. SCRIBNER: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for the opportunity to address you today. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I do need to have you state your name and I'll have you sworn in as well. MR. SCRIBNER: My name is David Scribner for the record. (David Scribner was placed under oath.) MR. SCRIBNER: I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead, sir. MR. SCRIBNER: I'm the investigative manager for Code Enforcement, and I'm just here to introduce the process for looking at licensure for tree trimming. We've had some ongoing issues with some of the trimming that's been going on. And this is our way of looking at maybe providing a educational opportunity for tree trimmers to learn what the codes are and how to properly trim these trees, because the damage that's being done in some cases it's irreparable, and the property owners are ultimately the ones who are suffering from the damages of this. So, the licensure process will be a way to maybe put an end to some of the practices that have been going on for some of these. And I'd like to take the opportunity to introduce Crystal Segora Page 134 May 17,2006 who is an environmentalist with the division, and she's worked extensively on addressing this and has done some research on it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tell-- tell us, where is this going? What are you wanting to do in the new licensing? How do you __ what are you wanting to change? MR. SCRIBNER: To actually license tree trimming and having a testing process go on, and I think Crystal's got some background __ CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We don't have that now, do we? MR.OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson, we have what you call a two-hour business and law exam that has no really bite to it as of how you cut the trees, OSHA requirements, safety, cutting. And that's been going on for about two years. We had a couple good workshops with Mr. Bowermeister, who is in charge and president of the Gainesville Independent Testing. And he has come up with some testing and some good literature, and I think that would be something we can amend into the ordinance, saying that you would need a two-hour exam and this Gainesville independent 50 question test. And it tells you how to cut trees, trim trees, landscaping, what the variety -- and I believe Mr. Bowermeister will give you that -- that pamphlet on the overhead, so you can take a look at it real quick. I don't think that we're -- we're not at odds about that particular item. I think it's a good thing and I think that it shouldn't take very long for Mr. Bowermeister to go ahead and put that in overhead, take a look at it say, you know, that's something we need due to the fact we have so many complaints about licensed tree trimmers not understanding about trees itself. So, it's something that Code Enforcement has been dealing with for two years. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You answered my question. MR. SCRIBNER: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because I knew we had tree trimming, Page 135 ---- ,.~._-~..- May 17,2006 but I didn't know they didn't have a test except business and law. MR. OSSORIO: And the landscaping. If you -- if you do anything with tree trimmers, you have to do something with the landscape as well. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Does it fall under a landscape license? Is that what it is? MR. OSSORIO: I'm sorry? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Does it fall under a landscape license? MR.OSSORIO: Well, landscape is also a two-hour exam. The only difference is, is the requirements as of -- of experience. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. MR.OSSORIO: But taking the exam is only one part of many things of getting a license. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Is there an arborist license? MR. OSSORIO: That's something you need to talk to Code Enforcement. I'm not really up on arborists and what they require and what kind of test there is. MR. SCRIBNER: I think probably the most expeditious way to get this -- get you the information that you need is have Ms. Gorp do a quick presentation. I think she'll answer a lot of the questions that you have. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How are you doing? MS. SEGORA: Hanging in there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I just need to have you state your name and I'll have you sworn in real quick. MS. SEGORA: My name is Crystal Segora, Environmental Specialist for Collier County. Yes. I currently hold a certified arborist certification as well. I spent about two and a half years in the Code Enforcement Department enforcing the pruning code, which is part of our Land Page 136 May 17,2006 Development Code. I helped to create the tree exam that Mr. Bowermeister is going to present to you today. With the assistance of other certified arborists in the county, we've held several workshops to get their input. The certified arborists were not only county employees but are -- that hold that certification, but also private tree companies that do have certified arborists on staff. Today we have Mr. Ian Orlikoff who is here. He holds a certification in tree trimming with the county and -- well, a license, a contractor's license, and he's a certified arborist and he helped create the -- gave input on the exam as well, and he would like to say a few words, if you would allow that today. The exam was based on the pruning code, which follows the NCA 300 standards for pruning and there was also some questions added to the exam on safety standards for these contractors who are doing the work. The exam was created for several reasons, mainly because the only thing that's required of these tree trimmers now is to take a business and law test. And we feel it's very important that these tree trimmers take another exam that is relevant to the work that they're being done for health and safety reasons and also to let them know that there are these NCA standards that we do enforce here in the county. It seems that anyone can get a tree trimming license if they take the business and law test. Sometimes the wives' will come in and take the business and law test and become the qualifier. So, we're hoping that this exam would encourage the actual tree trimmers to do the work to come and take the exam because they have all the experience and knowledge about what they're doing. When I worked in the Code Enforcement Department, our case Page 137 May 17, 2006 load was very extensive. We also dealt with vegetation removal violations and exotic vegetation violations, but we had multiple tree pruning cases in violations in the county and we felt that this exam may prevent some of those cases from coming in if -- if they could learn a little bit more about what they're doing. The -- the county is growing so fast and these landscaped trees that are being put in need to be maintained in the right way for health and safety reasons. And with the increase in hurricanes that are coming through, it's very important that these trees are structurally sound as they can be. And also the citizens that hire these tree trimmers, they rely on them to know what they're doing. And a lot of them out there, we don't feel, know exactly the proper way to prune trees. We use Broward County's test with their permission as a -- as a model, and their procedures as how -- how they enforce codes. In Broward County, they are a lot more strict. They do require an exam. They actually require one person per job site to have passed this exam. They -- their license is good for two years; however, they require these tree trimmers to take continuing education units and to prove that they're taking additional classes to keep them up on -- on the latest pruning methods and safety -- safety requirements through their extension office. They do have an exemption from the exam if there actually is a certified arborist on staff that can provide an affidavit that they do have the certification. So, we would like you to approve this exam requirement and implement it as a requirement in the ordinance. And I know we'll talk about this a little bit later, but we also feel that it's very important that everyone who concurrently holds a license be required to take this exam, and possibly by giving them a grace period of one year or so, to come in and -- and take this exam. Page 138 May 17,2006 We feel that these tree trimmers are the ones who are going to be around for the next ten, 15 years, trimming our trees, and they need to be the ones who -- who pass this exam as well. Otherwise, requiring just new people who come into the county to take it isn't going to solve the problems that we're having now with our -- with our tree pruning and unsafe practices. So, with that, I guess I'd like to introduce Jay Bowermeister of the Gainesville Testing Company to talk to you a little bit more about the exam unless you have any more questions from me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Appreciate it. Would that have saved all the Melaleucas if they had been trimmed right? Not Melaleucas, but the Banyans. Would that have saved them all if they had been trimmed correctly? Really? MR. HAMMOND: The majority of them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What a mess. Jay, good to have you with us. Before I have you go through the swearing in, you've been a pleasure to add to the testing here in Collier County. MR. BOWERMEISTER: Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We had some problems and we've heard nothing but good things about the group that you work with. MR. BOWERMEISTER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And we appreciate it. If you would, state your name and I'll have you sworn in. MR. BOWERMEISTER: I'm Jay Bowermeister, president of Gainesville Independent Testing Service. My name is spelled B-o-w-e- r-m-e- i -s- t-e-r. (Jay Bowermeister was placed under oath.) MR. BOWERMEISTER: First off, thank you for allowing me to come back and speak with you again. It's been awhile since I've been here. Page 139 May 17,2006 As you'll see on your screens, we actually have a sample exam information sheet up in front of you. I say it's a sample because we have customized part of it to match the examination that we've worked with the county and with the contractors here in the county and the certified arborist here to develop for you, but since there's nothing in place yet to actually make a hard line, some of the things in this sample will still need to be changed a little bit. Basically what the exam is, is a 50 item, two-hour exam, which if you go down in the sample that we've put together, I actually have never changed that to say two hours yet. It still says one, but that we would do something similar to this, just to change it to make it read correctly. We would also make changes to the scope of the exam so that it covers everything that's actually passed into -- into ordinance or into the rules here in the county, so the scope of the exam actually matches the scope of the license. As an example, for right now this is actually taken from Hernando County Tree Trimmers test that we administer there for them. Some of the items that would be used on the exam here are used in Hernando County, Sumter County, Volusia County and -- and a few of our other counties that we do specialty exams in. As you can see, and as Crystal mentioned, the number of items on the test are -- are extensive when it comes to the actual operation of how you work on a tree. During the development of the program, what we did is we had, I believe, two or three members from the county came together. There were four members of the actual companies in the area who already work that have arborists on staff that came together. We work through a -- a workshop development process where we sit down and -- and go from the very beginning process where we do Page 140 May 17,2006 what's called a directive job task analysis, figure out what people who trim trees need to know and how they need to do it. We then go from that job task analysis into a blueprint development. A blueprint development is where we came up with the four subject areas that you see on the sample EIS and with the number of items that are on that sample EIS. Underneath this, and I'm going to scroll down just a little bit, you'll see that there are four approved references for this examination if I can keep it on the screen. The first of those is actually the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 29, Part 1926. From that we get obviously some safety questions about how to handle equipment, how people need to be tied off properly if they're going to be in a sling in a tree. That also comes from the tree climbers guide so those two references are where the safety items come from. You see then the ANSI pruning, repairing, maintaining and removing trees as a reference. There are several items in the bank that come from that. I did bring some -- some banks along with me for today for you all to look at if you choose to. If you that, we have to kind of reverse things on you a little bit and I have to get you all to agree not to disclose what you see in the -- in the bank. And then there's the arborist's certification study guide that's used as the fourth reference on the exam. They quite extensively gets into the proper pruning and trimming of the exam. And I have to just relay a quick, funny occurrence that happened while we were working on this exam. We actually met at one of the City of Naples Community Centers to do the development. The day that we happened to be there, one of the larger free firms pulled up in the front and immediately began cutting trees. One of the very first things that I noticed is one of their workers crawled into their -- into their knuckle lift truck, into their bucket Page 141 May 17,2006 truck, and I just knew this was going to happen, and I just had to say. And I said, watch this, he's going to run this -- this lip all the way over the knuckle. And sure enough, the gentleman jumps in the bucket and takes it and runs it all the way, 180 degrees over the knuckle to the backside instead of swiveling around like he should have. They have absolutely no qualms in their operation about that at all. That was just illustrative of the kind of things that we watched all day long with the -- the safety precautions that weren't followed, and the proper practices that are now outlined in the exam through these four references. We spent an entire day working on how to write questions, what the questions needed to do, how not to make them tricky. We left that day at the end of day with about 35 questions completed. Since that time Crystal and some of the other people at the county and some of the other volunteers who were there who were actually working in the field as contractors now actually have submitted to us about another 120 questions that we've added to that bank, so we now actually have about 150 test questions for this 50- item test strictly for Collier County that would be your version. We may use it in other places. If anybody ever goes to it, we're actually negotiating with Dade County to take over their public works testing now also underneath our contract that we have with them through their contractor licensing examination board. But, that's all the information that I could briefly give you on it, as well as the sample EIS unless there are any questions. Oh, yeah. Languages and scrambling. As with all of the other examinations that we provide, this test would be automatically and -- and translated into Spanish. We're translating every test question that we have into Spanish very actively and we're about 90 percent of the way through our test Page 142 May 17,2006 banks. We have about 40,000 active test questions that we use for contractors here in Florida, and we have about 90 percent of those translated. All of the tests that we do that are translated, Spanish is not the only language. We do actually have six languages right now that we've translated into, including Albanian, Greek, German, Romanian. I can never remember what the other one was. We just finished it. The exams are done in what's called a diaglot (sic) fashion. What that means is the item shows up as originally written in English, then immediately underneath that, the item shows up again in the translated language. The biggest advantage to that is, is people who read English as a second language, which as we know in this part of the country, make up a substantial part of our work force. It does give them the advantage of being able to read in their first language and then look at the technical item and its structure in English, so that they can go to their reference books and know where -- where to go to study. The other thing that the computer system that we use does and the -- the translation is actually done manually through a group of translators, but we then enter it into the computer system and the computer system individually builds each form per candidate, just as it does in the contractor licensing for construction trades. Every exam that's given poles from a selected number of items for each subject area and loads that subject area randomly so we could literally take 50 people, put them in the same room sitting side by side and we wouldn't have to worry about anybody copying off of anyone else, because nobody's going to have the same exam. Matter of fact, most of them are not going to have the same items on their exam, it's scrambled so randomly inside the subject areas. And what you have to do is expedientiate the number of items on the test and then expedientiate that by the number of subject areas Page 143 May 17,2006 before the same person or before two people would see the same exam form. So, for all practical purposes on a 50-item test, it's never going to happen. The items will be long dead and out of use before the same form is produced two times. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Interesting. Any other points? Got it? Is this our tree trimming contractor? MS. SEGORA: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's who I want to hear from. MR. ORLIKOFF: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Go ahead. Just have you state your name and then be sworn in. MR. ORLIKOFF: Ian Orlikoff, O-r-I-i-k-o-f-f. (Ian Orlikoff was placed under oath.) MR. ORLIKOFF: I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: How do you feel about this? MR.ORLIKOFF: Very strongly. It needs to happen. We're way behind in the game because the industry is changing so fast. Eventually certified arborists, which used to be topped here of certification in agriculture is going to be the bottom. They're coming out with mastered certified arborists, they've already got consulting arborists, and it's just going to continue on because we're learning so much in the industry, that the things that we were doing ten years ago are in a lot of cases obsolete. So, companies that have been in business for ten years that started out doing it right are now doing it wrong. So, a lot of the problems that we had from the hurricane is because of improper pruning. Right now, today there's -- there's tree trimming -- trimming -- excuse me -- haven't spoke since high school. But there's tree trimmers out there right now that are causing Page 144 May 17,2006 hazards. You have a contractor come into your house today and making a cut in the improper place is going to guarantee a failure, and so that's why I think this test is at least a bottom or a basic education for people that should even be in the business period. And getting a certified arborist education is the next step. And then beyond that, there's more certifications coming down the line. There's -- I believe right now they're lobbying in Washington for certified arborists to actually become a profession, just like a plumber or welders. So, there's -- there's more things going on in agriculture, that we're learning so much in the last -- because we have only been researching for 40 or 50 years on trees. And now all these -- this information is being complied and we're coming up with all these things, that, hey, we've been doing things 15, 20 years ago that's completely wrong and causing more problems. So, now they're -- they're really getting it right. And, so, what we're doing with this test now is just the beginning. I would like to one day see a certified arborist on every -- on every job. Because it's -- for one thing, it's an extremely dangerous profession. And I'm sure you all can understand that. I mean, chain saws and hanging around ropes and trees, and then knowing where to place the cut and being able to recognize hazards and deformities in trees now to prevent a failure in the future is probably one of the most important things with how you trim a tree. And if you could remove that when it's young and when it's a small limb, it's not going to become a hazard to where it can't bear the weight and it just fails. I see tree failures just without a storm just because it won't bear the weight. And that's just -- there's hundreds of deformities you have to look for in a tree. And what they're doing in an exam is just a very basic idea of how to at least eliminate the most important hazards, because it takes Page 145 May 17,2006 -- I know pruners that have been doing it for 20, 30 years and they're still learning every day. And, so, I think if we start with this exam, it's going to create a culture of people that are going to want to educate themselves to put them in the stop of the industry. So, I can't agree enough about -- about what's going on. And even -- even looking in the future, we should even be thinking about more certifications because it's -- it's only going to benefit the community, the revenue of the town, the city, the county, the beautifying the trees is very important. We've lost a lot of trees on Crayton. Well, there's a lot of things that could have been recognized beforehand, could have prevented that a in a lot of ways. So, if you prune a tree improperly and you're guaranteeing that it's almost going to fail, there's clean up costs. How many millions of dollars will be spent on that because of not recognizing those hazards. Let's see. I think there's nothing that can be lost here by doing this. And then-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is this going to apply to the guys that do the trimming for the electrical companies and all them, the ones that hack the tops of the trees off? MR. ORLIKOFF: They're changing that. You'll start to notice they still do it, but in some cases if you drive by Asplin, they're actually -- there are some crews that do know better and they are starting to do that. But that's -- that's a culture that's been going on for a long time and it's going to take awhile for them to change that. The way they prune by hacking trees actually creates more growth. It creates growth that's going to be faster and it's going to actually cost more in the long run to do it that that way than actually pruning it the proper way, which reduces the amount of growth and Page 146 May 17,2006 reduces the volume of debris that you have to cut out next time you come back. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead. MS. SEGORA: Can I add something? Also, a lot of it has to do with the wrong tree in the wrong place. And I -- our codes have changed, our landscape codes have changed, which no longer allow trees -- oak trees to be planted under power lines, so hopefully that will solve the problem as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But these people, Asplin, and those others will have to have this test; right? MR. ORLIKOFF: As far as Asplin goes, they do have tests and certifications and they do know the proper way to prune. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR.ORLIKOFF: But whether that's enforced by their contracts on the right-of-ways, in some cases it probably is and other cases it's not. MR. OSSORIO: There is a -- there is a license holder for that company. And he's taking the two-hour business law exam. I don't know if he's going to be required to take an additional exam, but that's something you guys will talk about today. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, basically, I could go down and pick up my tree trimming license because I already qualify and I'm a roofing contractor. MR.OSSORIO: You've taken the -- if you have taken the two-hour exam? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm like, business and law, I'll go get the license. MR.OSSORIO: But you have to show experience. One of the things that people don't realize, taking the exam is only one part of many things. There's the credit report, the 12-month experience of the affidavit you sign that you've worked in that business before. So, taking a test, you're absolutely right. It fits one of many Page 147 May 17,2006 things. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I trim my trees at the house. I've been doing it for 20 years. MR. BARTOE: You have a lot of references? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sure. Just about as valid as the ones we get in all these packets, too. MR.ORLIKOFF: I also -- I also want to add that I don't feel that we should grandfather in any existing companies because we as companies that are here now should be the example to the new ones that are coming in. And I think we should start by taking that test. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Point well made. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good point. COMMISSIONER KELLER: And also it helps enforcement as well. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: How long have you been in business? MR. ORLIKOFF: Four years. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Four years. MR. OSSORIO: Are you a landscaper or a tree -- tree contractor? MR.ORLIKOFF: Tree contractor and I'm going to get my landscaping contractor's license as well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other questions? Are we going to act on this today? Is that -- MR. NEALE: Well, what you can do is at least direct, you know, Robert and I, what -- how you want it put into the ordinance amendments that we're going to propose, so -- and that's sort of the board's discretion at this point is tell us which one, how you want it -- how you want it put in and what aspects of it you want to put in, and then we can lawyer it up. Page 148 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That guy's going to tell me what he wants. MR. HAMMOND: Now, if -- for the record, Bill Hammond, director of the Collier County Building Department. I'm still under oath, I assume. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR. HAMMOND: The -- this -- the issue does speak to something else that -- that may set a precedent and we would -- we would like for the board to discuss this on a level, and it's the matter of the -- of the grandfather, on the implementation. Technologies across many fields are going to be changing, so there is precedent, you know, under Florida law, even with inspectors about grandfathering. However, in this -- in this case, in what may be, and possibly in other cases, there -- the grandfathering may also foster or endorse some subpart performance that may be taken care of by an implementation policy that basically speak to transition more than just grandfathering, so in the -- in the -- in consideration that in this instance we might be speaking precedence to situations that may arise in other, you know, technically, you know, required fields, we thought some discussion regarding the -- the balance between grandfathering and implementation and transition was appropriate for the board to discuss. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me point -- I've been here too long, 18 years now. What we've always done in the past is you have to grandfather, anybody that has a license right now. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But when we -- and we would always grandfather when we come up with new licenses. But when we throw in continuing education, that grandfather is good, but there's still then they're under the requirement of continuing education. Page 149 May 17,2006 Every two years, boom, there's your test. You did that with roofing, a lot of GCs. There were a lot of categories that happened, so it wasn't really that much of an issue. MR. HAMMOND: Okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Is the arborist test more -- is the testing -- I don't know how to say this. Are the questions on the arborist type test more -- more stringent on what's asked of the test than like on a landscaper's test or-- MR.ORLIKOFF: Yes. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- your tree trimming test and all that? MR.ORLIKOFF: Yeah, they're pretty involved and you have to do a lot of -- all the answers are right and you have to really choose the best one. They're pretty tough. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. MR.ORLIKOFF: The arborists tests used to be pretty basic and simple for the most part, and then there was just too many people in the business with the certification that really were making a lot of wrong decisions. And then they re -- redid the test and came up with a -- a good test. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So that the people now that really are trimming trees now with the landscape license don't really have all the knowledge that it will take to pass this particular test. MR.ORLIKOFF: Correct, unless-- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, it would be kind of superfluous to try to grandfather a license. MR.ORLIKOFF: If -- if they're -- if they have continuing education, they're going to classes and seminars and things and such, and if they have a certified arborist on staff, then being under a landscaper's contractor's license, then they're qualified, I would think. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Right now we're just dealing with tree Page 150 May 17, 2006 trimming. We're not going into arborists tests. MR. ORLIKOFF: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I figure that's coming next. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's go one step at a time. Okay? Mr. Neale, what do you want? MR. NEALE: Just some direction on -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you want a motion, you just want a -- MR. NEALE: Direction is fine. We don't need a motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does everyone on the board agree we should have this test? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is there a precedent for if we -- continuing education every two years? Should we get feedback from the other tree trimmers? I mean, all of us have -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Follow the -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, no. You guys have continuing education. Everybody has it. Every two years you have to have -- how long will this -- how long are these classes going to be that we're going to require so many hours of continuous education? MR. OSSORIO: Unless you're a specialty contractor. I don't think there's any kind of continuing education if you're a specialty, but for tier one contractors and roofing contractors, sure, even for registered contractors. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What kind of -- what kind of hourly class are we're looking at every two years? MS. SEGORA: Well, actually, we haven't gotten that far yet. The extension office does offer some pruning classes, but we haven't actually included that into what we're asking of you today. Page 151 May 17,2006 We're just -- we just want the test to be implemented and we want some type of a grace period to be issued for the current tree trimming contractors to come in and take the exam. Of course, we would want the continuing education classes to be part of it, but we haven't even gotten that far yet. We were figuring we would try to ask for at least a start in the process. Our extension office, they don't have classes on a regular basis but Doug Caldwell is a certified arborist out there and I'm sure he would be more than willing to -- to add these classes on a regular schedule and they do offer classes in Spanish out there too, I believe. So it's all in a part of the process that we would like to implement. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Here's my problem though, Mr. Neale. How do I tell someone that they've got to go take a test to keep their license when they've had it for 25 or 30 years? Unless I call it continuing education. See my problem? You've got a hurdle you got to get over here. You can't just all of a sudden tell someone his license is no longer good. MS. SEGO RA: Right, but if you give them a grace period and if they have ten years experience, they should have no problem taking the exam and passing it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Should and would and could I got to have in that book over there that he's going through. MS. SEGORA: Ifwe implement that into the ordinance, would that be sufficient? I mean, would that be legal? MR. NEALE: You can probably require current license holders to take an exam if you change the parameters of the definition of the category . That's the only way I can think of it right -- certainly, you know, there probably -- and I would have to do some research on it -- there probably is the ability for the board to just impose a testing Page 152 May 17,2006 requirement retroactively. However, I'd certainly want to research that issue. But if you're changing the -- the parameters, the definition, set forth under there, then you may. I mean, there -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, basically, we can tell you we like it and let you research it -- MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- without taking an action, because that's something you just don't do is change the parameters of the license and if you don't meet that by X number of days you're out of business. Uh-uh. That doesn't happen. MR. BOWERMEISTER: If I may, in a few of the counties that we work with up in the north part of the state or the northern part, they have approached this in a -- in a way that has seemed to work for them. I thought I might raise this for you to research. One of the things that they offer them is the option to go take classes or they can take the exam and pass it for the initial passage after it originally goes there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just go take some classes. Okay. MR. BOWERMEISTER:. Right. MR. NEALE: Which would essentially fit in with the continuing education. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's a good idea. That's fine. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Yeah. Continuing education within the first renewal period of the license. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yeah. That makes sense. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're going to pursue it. That's -- the board likes it. We're going to pursue it. Let him do his book work. He sits on an airplane a lot, a lot of hours every month, so he has lots of time to read. MS. SEGORA: Thank you. Page 153 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Appreciate your -- sorry you had to sit here for three and a half hours. Can we go home? MR. BARTOE: Until July, yes. I have a question for Mr. Neale and Mr. Zachary. Do you have any idea of when the first draft of the proposed ordinance amendments would be ready. MR. NEALE: I would think we probably, just based on my schedule and probably Mr. Zachary's, probably the end of June, I would say we'll have something done. MR. BARTOE: That hopefully I can get a copy of that I can give to the board for the July meeting. MR. NEALE: Right. MR. BARTOE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I got a motion to dismiss. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Wait. I got one -- I got one last question real quick. Going back to that last case here with the city, is it possible since we had this testing requirement fellow right here right now, is it possible that that gentleman that was here just a few minutes ago that needs his license could somehow hook up with him and could take this test over in a matter of three or four days from now? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Come here, Jay. MR. BOWERMEISTER: I already gave my business card to the individuals that were from the city with him. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. MR. BOWERMEISTER: And we do have testing available four days a week in our office in Fort Lauderdale, six days a week in our office in Ocala. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yep. MR. BOWERMEISTER: So, yes, that is possible and we've already taken care of it. Thank you, sir. Page 154 May 17,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you do it on line? MR. BOWERMEISTER: We have the capability. We actually can -- can give tests for you in Fort Myers at the Prometric Testing Center there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, he can go get it. MR. BOWERMEISTER: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thanks. That's cool. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Answered my question. MR. BAR TOE: I knew that, sir, but he needs to complete his application also for us. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a motion to dismiss. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I did. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Adjourned. Go home. All those in favor? Aye. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. COMMISSIONER GUITE: Aye. ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 1: 10 p.m. CONTRACTOR'S LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON, Chairman. Page 155