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CLB Minutes 04/19/2006 R April 19, 2006 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida, April 19, 2006 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Contractor's Licensing Board in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m., in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson William Lewis Sydney Blum Ann Keller Richard Joslin Lee Horn Eric Guite ALSO PRESENT: MichaelOssorio Tom Bartoe Patrick Neale Robert Zachary Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: APRIL 19,2006 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: March 15,2006 V. DISCUSSION: VI. NEW BUSINESS: Stephen Sliemers Request to be granted a Class "B" Air Condo License Based on his exam and license from Ohio. David A. Cujas Request to qualify a 2nd entity. Request to qualify a 2nd entity. Request to qualify a 2nd entity. Request to qualify a 2nd entity. Ramiro Gonzalez Jahaziel Puente Mauro Zabala Workshop (if time permits) on amendments to Ordinance 2002-21. VII. OLD BUSINESS: VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS: Case # 2006-05 Collier County vs Andrew Espinoza D/B/A Island Concrete Products, Inc. IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 April 19,2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to call the order of the April meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board, April 19, 2006. Any person who wants to appeal a decision of this Board will need a record of the verbatim proceeding which is being taken, which record includes that testimony in evidence upon which the appeal would be based. Start with roll call to my right first. MR. LEWIS: William Lewis. MR. BLUM: Syd Blum. MS. KELLER: Ann Keller. MR. JOSLIN: Richard Joslin, Junior. MR. HORN: Lee Horn. MR. GUITE: Eric Guite. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning to everybody, including the princess. Mr. Bartoe, would you like -- do you have any additions or deletions to the meeting? MR. BARTOE: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Board members. I'm Tom Bartoe, Collier County Licensing Compliance Officer. And staff has no additions or deletions at this time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Need to have approval of the agenda. Somebody could give me a motion for that. MR. BLUM: So moved, Blum. MR. JOSLIN: Only one change before we make the motion. There's one item on here that's for David Beswick being present. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's minutes. MR. JOSLIN: I'm sorry. Second the motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. Page 2 April 19, 2006 MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Approval of minutes last week. Go ahead. MR. JOSLIN: On the March 15th minutes for the meeting, David Beswick was shown as being present and I don't think he was there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, he's not on the Board. Any other changes. Motion to approve? MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. MR. BLUM: Second, Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You'll notice a second sheet that's in your packet. I'm not going to read that because I don't want those things to disappear. That was really nice. I guess that's why I didn't get my check in the mail this month. Parking space is now going to -- okay. Moving right along. No discussion, therefore, new business. Stephen Sliemers. Am I saying that right? You can come up to the podium, sir. Request to be granted a Class B air conditioner license based upon his exam and license in Ohio. I need for you if you would to state your name and the reporter will swear you in. MR. SLIEMERS: Stephen Sliemers. (Whereupon, speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Tell us why we should approve you for Ohio licenses. Page 3 April 19, 2006 MR. SLIEMERS: Well, from my studying up on the process I took the test from Experior, which there should be a copy of the test results in your packages. But I have been doing heating and air conditioning for 23 years, I think it is. Twenty-three, 24 years. We've been asked by one of the builders that we do work for in the Columbus market in Ohio to come down here and do work in the Fort Myers general area because of the lack of manpower, so to speak, or the need for people. Need for contractors. In the Columbus market I've got an unlimited HV AC and refrigeration license, which is two separate State of Ohio licenses. And I've walked a lot of the jobs down here and it's done -- the heating is anyway, what I've seen on residential is done very, very similar to what we do in Columbus, Ohio. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. Gentlemen -- ladies and gentlemen have any questions? MR. BLUM: You took this test, the AC and refrigeration in '97? MR. SLIEMERS: Yes. MR. BLUM: Can anybody tell me how -- is it the same test Experior gives in Ohio that it gives here, and has it changed in eight years, nine years? MR. SLIEMERS: I've got a lot of comparison sheets that I've pulled together off the Internet and some other things if you'd like to see. MR. BLUM: Do you have the legal equivalent there also that we have? MR. SLIEMERS: I'm not sure if that would mean that or not, to tell you the truth. MR. BLUM: My experience only goes back 16 years to New York. And I found when I came down here that I was amazed to see how much more extensive the requirements were here as opposed to New York. I have no experience in Ohio. My sense would be that unless I knew that the tests were the same and that they've remained Page 4 April 19, 2006 the same for the last nine years, I would be a little bit skeptical. MR. SLIEMERS: I have some paperwork here that goes over the subject as far as percentages of what they test on versus the Florida one. And they're very, very similar as far as the percentages of the subject matter. MR. JOSLIN: Just for conversation, is there a way we could contact Experior to verify that the testing that was given in Ohio would be basically the same as Florida? I mean, I can see by the packet this gentleman has a lot of credentials. He's been in business a long time. I'm just questioning like Mr. Blum, the amount of testing and what questions are on the test and if they're similar or the same as Florida. MR.OSSORIO: I believe that's going to be up to the applicant to provide that information. I know there's a fee for that. If they want to review one license or another. That's up to the applicant I don't know if he's done that or not. MR. SLIEMERS: I've talked to a gentleman up there, but I've never received any formal comparison. MR. JOSLIN: I mean, I don't know what the rest of the members think, but I think -- I don't think there's a problem with him being qualified, or him having had a business before. Only to answer the questions as far as if the testing is the same. If this could be provided, I don't see there being a problem. MR. SLIEMERS: Would this sheet help to look over? I don't know if this is something I can present to you. MR. JOSLIN: We probably need something from the testing facility that gives the test. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. My turn. I have a real problem. Everyone on this Board is from somewhere else, you included, me included. I never even thought for a second that I could use my license in other states and qualify here, because Florida does have a different test. I even know stories like Michael DeB lakey, one Page 5 April 19, 2006 of the most famous heart surgeons in the world, he had to get -- to take the test to practice here in Florida and do surgeries. It is a different test. It -- it's different. And especially if you're talking about air conditioners how they have to be strapped down and everything. If you're as sharp as your packet says, I see no problem with you going and taking the test. MR. SLIEMERS: Well, I am registered to take the state test on -- I think it's January -- I mean, June 20th. I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. SLIEMERS: I was just hoping to expedite some things, speed it up until I can get that taken. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Also I have a real problem with this, if we approve one, we open up the floodgates for every state in the United States to have people to come here. It specifically says a Florida test, doesn't it Mr. Bartoe, or Mr. Balzano? MR. BALZANO: I think Mr. Neale could tell you in the ordinance it says further testing is superfluous. In my dealings with Experior, most of their major trade exams are the same. Their plumbing and electrical exams are the same throughout the country, so I don't know if their air conditioning wouldn't be also. MR. NEALE: Pursuant to the Collier County ordinance 22-184c, the Board does have the ability to waive the testing requirements upon evidence presented by the applicant to the contracting licensing supervisor, the Board shall determine whether the applicants are qualified, or unqualified. The Board may consider the applicants relevant recent experience in the specific trade, and based upon such experience, may waive testing requirements if convinced that the applicant is qualified by experience whereby such competency testing would be superfluous. So, the Board does have that power if it feels that, based on the evidence submitted by the applicant, he does have enough relevant recent experience. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? So there is a form for Page 6 April 19, 2006 a fee that could -- MR.OSSORIO: As far as I know, yes. There is a form that the applicant fills out and sends to the testing agent and they compare one test on the other. MR. JOSLIN: One last question. In the packet, maybe I'm missing it, I see no evidence, I guess, of yourself of where you live. MR. SLIEMERS: Where I live? MR. JOSLIN: Yes. MR. SLIEMERS: I'm sorry. I don't remember the exact forms that we had to fill out, but I live in Galloway, Ohio, which is a suburb of Columbus, Ohio. MR. JOSLIN: So, are you going to operate this business in Florida out of Ohio? MR. SLIEMERS: I will be down here frequently. We have men that we would have down here as far as the day-to-day stuff, but I would -- my plan is every week or every two weeks be down here for a day or two to oversee things, yes. MR. BLUM: Are you going to be doing new construction? MR. SLIEMERS: That's our goal, yes. Like I said, local residential builders have asked us to possibly do some work. MR. BLUM: Fort Myers? MR. SLIEMERS: Yeah. They build in Collier, Charlotte, and a couple other surrounding counties. Centex Homes. MR. BLUM: Centex? MR. SLIEMERS: Uh-huh. MR. BLUM: So, theoretically, you could be doing two or three hundred or thousand homes a year? MR. SLIEMERS: In the future possibly, yeah. Originally we would start off slow just to make sure we got procedures down, you know, get familiar with and appreciate things that aren't quite the same as Ohio. MR. BLUM: It's been my unfortunate lot in life to have been an Page 7 April 19, 2006 air conditioning contractor for a number of years in the new house market. And I would have been sorely pressed to run an operation that you're envisioning the way you're envisioning running it. You may be a heck of a lot more competent than I was. MR. SLIEMERS: Well, I've got a partner who would be manning most of the plumbing outfit. MR. BLUM: Is he going to be licensed also? MR. SLIEMERS: Not in the Florida market. He's licensed in the Ohio market. MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Blum, just to clarify, this license is only for registration. And that means he can only work in Collier County. So Lee County is considered a general contracting county so, if he did get a license today, or through our office, that he would only work in Collier County. MR. SLIEMERS: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any more discussion? Do I hear a motion? MR. LEWIS: Move to deny. MR. JOSLIN: Second, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? All those in favor? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? You're going to have to take the test. MR. SLIEMERS: Is there a form that I could -- do you know of that form you were talking about, that comparison form? MR.OSSORIO: You can stop by the office tomorrow and we'll Page 8 April 19, 2006 discuss it and give you the number to call the company up. MR. SLIEMERS: Okay. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Best of luck to you. MR. SLIEMERS: Thanks. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: David A. Cujas. MR. CUJAS: Cujas. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Boy, every time I think I've got it right. MR. BLUM: How do you say it? MR. CUJAS: Cujas. MR. BLUM: Cujas. What nationality is that? MR. CUJAS: It's French and Belgium. MR. BLUM: I didn't think it was Spanish. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I thought it was Spanish and the J was an H. Okay. What do I know? I need to have you sworn in, sir. (Whereupon, speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We understand you want to qualify a second entity. Tell us what you qualify now, what you want to qualify and why. MR. CUJAS: Okay. I'm a Licensed Irrigation Contractor in Collier and Lee Counties. I would like to qualify a landscape company called Hogan, Inc. to do irrigation installs. I run a pretty small operation like two men, and he's getting so busy that I'd like to qualify him to do that work because I don't really want to put on -- excuse me -- a bunch of manpower. We have worked together for better than ten years and I do all his residential installs. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who is he? MR. CUJAS: Hogan, Inc. He's a landscape contractor here in Collier County. He is here too if you want to speak to him. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Yeah we've got his letter. So you are licensed in Lee County; is that correct? MR. CUJAS: Yes, sir. Page 9 April 19, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right, sir. How long have you been licensed there? MR. CUJAS: I believe it's two years or three years. Reason being I have been licensed in Collier County for -- I have been qualified for over 10 years here, been licensed, I believe it's five or six. I moved to Bonita Springs so then I had to get licensed in Lee County in order to get re-licensed in Collier County and that was fun too. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. We're just looking through your reports real quick. MR. CUJAS: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody has any questions. Feel free. MR. HORN: Mr. Chair, I see a corporate credit statement in here but not a personal credit statement in here. Should we be looking at that also? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. We could make a judgment based on county staff reviewing that. MR. BLUM: I have the same misgivings. Not that it's really relevant. I just like to see the qualifier of some kind of percentage of ownership in the second business or some kind of control. It would make me feel a whole lot better if I saw something like that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's not required though. MR. BLUM: I know but I've got to mention it. I feel bound to mention it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And understandably so with large contractors that are multi-state or stockholders. MR. BLUM: Yeah. It would just give me a nice comfort level if I saw it. MS. KELLER: Can I just make a comment about the packets again? These packets are still not organized with the relevant information. I think there's stuff in here that we don't need to see. And it just makes it really hard to go through when you see things that you Page 10 April 19, 2006 don't need to see. MR. BLUM: Checking account and all that. MS. KELLER: Yeah. And there's an agreement of things that I don't need to know. So, I don't know. I know we've talked about it a number of times, but it just makes it harder to go through everything because you have to remember, okay, now what is it that I need to know to look at this, and what do I need to not look at. So I don't know if we can do that better when we prepare these. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mike, do you know what we're talking about on this one? We've got all these checking account statements and also checking or different account deposit balances. I don't know why that would be in here. MR. JOSLIN: Just for the record, they're in all of them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Keeping the packet. MR. BALZANO: Keeping the packet together because they don't want to lose it by breaking it up. And I believe the ordinance says you submit a completed package. And if that's what it calls for, that's in the packet when the girls put it together. So they wouldn't want to leave half of it there and half of it here and then put it together and not find the other half. MS. KELLER: Do they have a list of the things that are required? MR. BALZANO: That's what they give them, a list of everything they have to turn in. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So they have to turn in this kind of information on bank accounts? MR. BALZANO: I haven't seen that so I don't know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've never seen it before. MS. KELLER: I haven't either. MR. LEWIS: I do know on a state level on a second, to qualify a second entity you have to provide three months bank statements. MR. CUJAS: Yeah. Mrs. Wright said you guys were starting to Page 11 April 19, 2006 follow state guidelines. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Enough said. MR.OSSORIO: Just to clarify, Mr. Dickson, I did review most of these packages before, and I notice there's a lot of information, but I figured more information was better than less information. I know last meeting we were missing some things, and now this meeting we have too many things. MR. BLUM: You can't please anybody, Michael. MR. OSSORIO: We'll come to some kind of a -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just keep giving us the whole packet. MR. OSSORIO: I think the more information you have the better you can make a good decision. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give us the whole packet. Ifno one wants to read it, they don't have to. MR. BLUM: Mr. Chairman, we're seeing on the Experior things, to me it's new and I don't understand it. This credit ranking score. Can somebody educate me on what that means, how it works? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't think anyone can explain -- can speak for Experior, or Experium. MR. BLUM: I haven't -- I don't look at these that much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Except it says a low risk. MR. BLUM: So 85 I guess is good but as opposed to a credit number rating. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Okay. Anybody else have any -- I don't see anything wrong with the packet, and I don't see any problems in the packet. I don't see any reasons why we should deny this. Let's move on. MR. JOSLIN: I'll make a motion that we approve this packet. MR. HORN: I'll second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. Page 12 April 19, 2006 MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You got it. MR. CUJAS: Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You and everyone else sitting here today, your entire file is here. MR. CUJAS: We were concerned about the checking accounts, them handing all that information over that it remain private and somebody doesn't get a hold of it. I don't want any withdrawals that I'm like, where did that come from. MS. KELLER: Well, That's fraud and they'll go to jail for that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The account numbers were scratched out. MR. CUJAS: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Which is only good practice. But going back, all of your files are here. Don't go to the county today, but you can go to Contractor Licensing tomorrow. MR. CUJAS: Very good. Thank you so much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wish you well. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ramira Gonzalez. I got that one right. Come on up. Good morning, sir. MR. GONZALEZ: Good morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need to have you sworn in. (Whereupon, speaker was duly sworn.) THE COURT REPORTER: Can I trouble you for the name of this gentleman? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Paul Balzano. He has 49 days to go. He is the Chief Inspector, Chief Supervisor for Contractor License for 49 days. Page 13 April 19, 2006 MR. JOSLIN: As you can see, he's not doing very much at the moment. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We will miss you though, Paul. MR. BALZANO: I hope so. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We will miss you. Okay sorry, Mr. Gonzalez. Tell us what company you qualify now and what you want to qualify. MR. GONZALEZ: I would like to qualify my partner, Ramiro, for Aerosol Cleaning, Inc. I already have liability insurance, worker's comp insurance and all that. I just need to qualify him. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Aerosol Cleaning, Incorporated? MR. GONZALEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And are you going to be a part of the new company? MR. GONZALEZ: His secretary, yes. I want to make sure the process goes very well and everything, otherwise I will change my mind and, you know -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pull it, right? MR. GONZALEZ: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's what we want to hear. You watch over it, if you don't like it, pull the license. MR. GONZALEZ: Well, as far as he pays the taxes and, you know, the bank is okay, we have no problem. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What most people don't understand is, if he screws up and you lose your license, your business goes away also. MR. GONZALEZ: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. GONZALEZ: Yes, sir. MR. JOSLIN: I have a problem and I guess questions for you too. On the credit report that we have in front of us. I'm seeing a lot of Page 14 April 19, 2006 negatory things here. And could you explain some of these items that are on here? MR. GONZALEZ: I try to clear all that stuff. I think somebody was using my information under Ramiro Gonzalez. They got a hold of my Social Security. But down below I pay already like maybe $10,000, $12,000 already and I only have like $4,000 left which I want to pay very soon. I don't know who got a hold of my Social Security and everything. There was some people living in Immokalee. I never live in Immokalee and I tried to clear this up, you know. MR. JOSLIN: I find it kind of -- I find it a little difficult to believe that Bank of America would have a credit limit in place for collections for that amount of money and you not be the person. MR. GONZALEZ: Right, it's $1,800. MS. KELLER: It's also on an automobile. There's a title to an automobile. You can't really fraudulently take out an automobile loan. MR. BLUM: Yes. MR. BLUM: Spread out over three years too. MR. GONZALEZ: Uh-huh. MR. BLUM: All in the same year. MS. KELLER: Do you have any other paperwork that you have sent to them on the fraudulent nature of the charges? MR. GONZALEZ: Yes, I do. MR. HORN: Mr. Ramira, on your financial for your corporation, International Painting, it shows a couple revolving credit reports here that some of the companies are reporting it taking 60 days plus to receive payment from you. One of them showing 90 plus. MR. GONZALEZ: What's that month on that one? MR. HORN: I think it says date reported 3/06, so that would be March of this year. MR. GONZALEZ: Right, that's the same person that -- MR. HORN: This is under your business now, not your personal. MR. GONZALEZ: That's the only one in International Painting? Page 15 April 19, 2006 MR. HORN: I think so, yeah. MR. GONZALEZ: What happened is it goes right to there. Whatever it is, my Federal ID number, it goes right to that one too. But I can go ahead and pay it today or -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's not the point. Everything else is in order, but your credit reports are not good. And that would mean we would approve another business under your license with credit reports that are presently not good. MR. GONZALEZ: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Unless you have something showing me that what you are claiming that someone else has used your name and Social Security number and everything else. If you have police reports or some type of filings that verify what you're saying. MR. GONZALEZ: Yes, sir, I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You have those? MR. GONZALEZ: I have it in the car. I thought I wasn't allowed to bring it in, but I do have it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, let me suggest -- would the Board like to see those? MS. KELLER: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me suggest that you step down and you go get what you have in your car before we make the decision. MR. GONZALEZ: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because if we don't have it, I can tell you where this decision is going presently. MR. GONZALEZ: That's good. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. GONZALEZ: uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go get them. MR. GONZALEZ: Thank you. Page 16 April 19, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll go on and call you back up. MR. GONZALEZ: Okay, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, wow. Mr. Puente? MR. PUENTE: Puente. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Puente. Would you say your first name? MR. PUENTE: It's Jahaziel. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Jahaziel. MR. PUENTE: Jahaziel. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Jahaziel Puente. MR. PUENTE: Yup. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll need to have you sworn in, sir. (Whereupon, speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you tell us what you qualify now, what you want to qualify, and your reason. MR. PUENTE: Right now personally I qualify a company known as Structure Stone, Incorporated. And what we do we do stone work, precast stone work. Decorative mostly. I am trying to qualify a new company named Exclusive Stone Masons. And what that company will do presently will provide different kind of stone and more of a natural stone. So mostly same customers that I deal with right now, same neighborhoods in Collier County. But more for like interior work and more finer. Different kind of stone. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So it's not keystone? MR. PUENTE: It's a keystone but the one I deal with right now it's more of a concrete precast. This is going to be more of a natural stone. You know, keystone product. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And why do you need to do that under a second entity? MR. PUENTE: Because I have current partners right now under this entity, and this is something that I will do on my own. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So two distinct separate Page 17 April 19, 2006 books? MR. PUENTE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anybody. Feel free, anybody. MR. JOSLIN: How many years have you owned Structural Stone? MR. PUENTE: Excuse me? MR. JOSLIN: How many years have you owned Structural Stone? MR. PUENTE: I think it's going to be about three-and-a-half years right now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just a question for you. Maybe this is to the whole Board. Why are we seeing bank statements for the first time? I didn't understand. MR. NEALE: From what I understand is, that there -- staff has decided to follow state requirements, and in the state requirements, they do require a set of bank statements for the applications. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's right because they have to show us certain equity. MR. NEALE: They have to show certain net worth. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. The net worth. Which they did. Okay. They did that to me when I qualified for the state. The state required it. MR. OSSORIO: The state requires you to have some kind of financial statements. I think it's $20,000 in the bank or some kind of a bond. MR. NEALE: It depends on the class of license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Different classes. MR. JOSLIN: When I got my state license through DPR, I didn't have to provide bank statements. All I had to do was have a letter from the bank stating that I had that kind of money in the bank. Page 18 April 19, 2006 Wouldn't that be a lot easier than coming up with 25 sheets of bank statements? MR. NEALE: It would probably be safer for the applicant too. MR. JOSLIN: Yeah. Because there's a lot of ways -- I think if this is going to be the case, we're going to get these all the time then I think these packets should start being left here to be destroyed. I don't want to have someone coming back and saying they got their personal information and we gave it to them, because I take this home and put it in my garbage. If somebody picks it up in the garbage. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What do you think, Mike? MR. GUITE: And there is account numbers on this. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I just noticed with this one. MR. OSSORIO: Talk to Maggie and we'll get it done. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't you agree? MR. OSSORIO: I agree with you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I think that's something that you guys should verify, but I really am concerned. I normally just throw these in the trash here. Now I've got to make sure that these go back to the office and get shredded. I'm concerned about liability to the applicant. Let's stop doing that. Okay. MR. OSSORIO: Yup. MR. JOSLIN: A simple letter from the bank I think was sufficient when I did mine years ago, but they verified I had the money in the bank to qualify. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do they have shredding in here, Mr. Neale, or Mr. Zachary? MR. ZACHARY: Shredders and Sunshine Law do not mix. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Never thought about that. MR. LEWIS: Two things. Richard, I know as a second entity licensee, the state does require three months of bank statements prior to their review of your license for a second entity. I don't know why, but they do require the bank statements. It could be for solvency. I Page 19 April 19, 2006 have no idea. But also I think I agree with the Board in the comments about the safety for the packets for the information that's in them. I think we should leave them here in the care of staff and let them deal with them. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's do that. You guys take care of them. MS. KELLER: Well, the other problem too is that Mr. Gonzalez does not have bank statements in, so I don't like reviewing one packet that has stuff and one that doesn't because I can't -- I'm not comparing them on an equal basis. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Structural Stone, you're solid. We can see that. Okay. There's no question, you're a very successful, good company. MR. PUENTE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I wished all of them looked this good. You pay your bills promptly. Even shows that you do discount. Anybody have any other questions? If not, I'll entertain a motion. MR. LEWIS: Move to approve. MR. BLUM: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? You got it. Solid like that, we'll work with you all the way. MR. PUENTE: Thank you. I appreciate it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON. We wish you well. MR. PUENTE: Thank you. Have a good day. Page 20 April 19, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Zabala? MR. ZABALA: Zabala. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I can't win today. Ramira Gonzalez was the only one I got today. If you would, state your name, sir. MR. ZABALA: My name is Mauro Zabala. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Zabala. I'll have you sworn in, sir. (Whereupon, speaker was duly sworn.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Shutter Masters. MR. ZABALA: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you want to qualify what company? MR. ZABALA: I have another company called True Shade doing business as Shutter Doctor. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Shutter Doctor? MR. ZABALA: Shutter Doctor. I'm doing this Shutter Doctor on my own. I have another guy who helps me. I'm doing good, but now I have my brother which also was working on another shutter company and we want to start installing shutters. We have been working -- my brother and I been working in another company and I put my own shutter service company. I have been working more than six years. I have a lot of experience regarding shutters. My brother as well has a lot of experience doing his shutters, but he's not qualified. So we try to put our strengths together. We going to do -- still doing the service, shutter service with my license. And I'm going to do the installation part with my brother and with the other license if you allow me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is there interior or exterior shutters? MR. ZABALA: Exterior shutters. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Storm shutters? MR. ZABALA: Storm shutters. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you busy? Page 21 April 19, 2006 MR. ZABALA: Very busy, yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you told me no, I would worry about you. All right. Shutter Doctor. Do you do repairs? MR. ZABALA: We do repairs. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Shutter Doctor doesn't install? MR. ZABALA: No, it does not install. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. That explains what I was looking at. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Zabala, what type of license do you currently hold in Collier County? MR. ZABALA: I have installation of shutters and awnings. When I took the test it was probably four years ago or so. It was the regular aluminum with concrete license. And then I have to -- what's the name of it? MR. LEWIS: We upgraded it. MR. ZABALA: Upgraded. MR. LEWIS: So it is an installation license? MR. ZABALA: It is installation license, yes. MR. LEWIS: Thank you. MR. BLUM: Mr. Bartoe, any problem? MR. BAR TOE: As far as complaints, no, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody have any questions? MR. JOSLIN: Just one quick one. Maybe it's just me. The corporation report for the Shutter Masters, LLC, I don't see a ID number. Why would that be? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: FederalID. MR. BLUM: Here it is here. Federal ID number, 593681698. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. Where is that? MR. BLUM: Page number P3, just before the AmSouth Bank Statement. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That could also be the reporting agency. Page 22 April 19, 2006 MR. JOSLIN: Okay. Just a question. MR. BLUM: It's on the AmSouth Bank Statement, Federal ID number. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll entertain a motion if there's no question. MR. BLUM: So moved. MR. JOSLIN: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What so moved? MR. BLUM: To approve the license as requested. MR. JOSLIN: I'll second the same motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I have a motion and a second to approve. Any discussion? All those in favor? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wish you well. MR. ZABALA: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I hope you do good. MR. ZABALA: Thank you. I appreciate it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to reopen Mr. Gonzalez. If you'd come back up, sir. Okay. Tell me what you have. MR. GONZALEZ: Like I said, I'm going to go today or tomorrow to fix my credit up and reapply to new qualification. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I hate to speak, do you all agree with what I'm getting -- you know what I'm getting ready to say? Do you agree with me? (All affirm.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We don't like your credit report, Page 23 April 19, 2006 especially to qualify a second company. MR. GONZALEZ: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just the fact that you go pay the bill today is not going to be good enough because it shows a pattern. If someone was fraudulently or illegally using your name, there has to be records to that and we want to see those records, only because we cannot -- we can't accept that you're telling us the truth. We have to have documentation. MR. GONZALEZ: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You understand? MR. GONZALEZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So if you can come up with documentation for that -- MR. GONZALEZ: Yeah. I want to -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then we can reconsider. Okay? MR. GONZALEZ: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Very good. Hope it works out. Thank you, sir. MR. GONZALEZ: Okay. Thank you. MR. LEWIS: Do we need to do something with this since we already opened it? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale, do we need to do anything? MR. NEALE: If he withdraws his application, there's really nothing that needs to be done. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Withdraw. MR. LEWIS: Want him to say that? CHAIRMAN DICKSON? Mr. Gonzalez, so, for a formality -- MR. GONZALEZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are you agreeing to withdraw the application until you get that document? MR. GONZALEZ: Yes, sir. That's what I'm going to do. Page 24 April 19, 2006 They'll come in and fix the credit. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's good for you because then it goes on the record that we didn't take any action. MR. GONZALEZ: Yes, sir. Thank you so much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir. MR. GONZALEZ: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's another good reason for us to give you these reports back because when that one comes back, it's already done. I don't know who's going to want to carry all these reports out. Paul will do it. MR. BLUM: For 49 days. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Workshop, I'll come back to. Nothing in old business. Public hearing. I don't see anybody, folks. Talk to me. MR. BARTOE: Not my hearing. I'll let Alan Canet talk to you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who is it? MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Chairman, I know under old business we wanted some information about citations and money collected. And I believe we have a new program that lumps everything together and we're going to separate that again next month. But as of right now, I think we collected $97,500 in fines. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wow. MR. OSSORIO: Money returned and reciprocity letters. Today the operation of our business. That's a lump sum, and hopefully next month we'll have something, we'll separate that again, and we'll break it down for you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The other thing, while I've got you, we discussed permits on repairs. Not just my trade but other trades. Unless -- and we were under the assumption you were -- and I hope you're right -- that unless there's an inspection required, there's no permit required. Would you follow up on that? MR.OSSORIO: We did and I know that Mr. Balzano got a letter Page 25 April 19, 2006 from the building director just on that matter itself. There seems to be some issues of where that money, or where that number came from. I guess it came from the fee schedule. And I believe he's going to do away with that. I think Paul can address that since it was addressed to him. MR. BALZANO: Sure. MR. OSSORIO: But I will address it for you since I read the letter. I believe what the building records say he's going to do away with the -- money wise, if it requires inspection, a building permit is needed no matter what the money is. In other words, if it's one window and only cost you $50, well it requires inspection, we want a building permit. So, I think he's working on that. When we got something more concrete, we'll bring it back. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: Weare on top of it. We got the letter last month. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have -- any other trades have questions? MR. JOSLIN: I have one question, and maybe we can get into that deeper later. But on swimming pools, I've seen a lot of commercial swimming pools that are being redone and completely gutted and reput back together again with no permits, no inspections. And these are all hotel, motel type, condominium type pools. Now, if you have to have a permit to put on a new roof of a home, how come you don't have to have a permit to -- MR. OSSORIO: Does it require inspection? MR. JOSLIN: Well according to Collier County, no, but according to HRS, yes. When that pool is permitted, it's permitted with a set of blueprints. MR. OSSORIO: Well, if I am a pool contractor and I go to the Hyatt and redo the tile around the border, does that require a building permit? Page 26 April 19, 2006 MR. JOSLIN: No, but it requires that tile be slip resistant. A lot of people aren't doing it. MR.OSSORIO: Is that one of the inspections that they inspect for? MR. JOSLIN: Yes. MR.OSSORIO: Are building requirements inspected for tile to make sure it's not slippery? MR. JOSLIN: No, HRS is. MR. OSSORIO: I agree with you, it's just that we have no control over what HRS does. I know there's even a test for swimming pool maintenance for employees. MR.OSSORIO: We don't handle that. MR. JOSLIN: You don't. MR. OSSORIO: No. I suppose if you called HR, there is a hotline there. We'll get the number for you next month. I'm sure they go out and check because I believe they check it once a week. All swimming pools are checked. MR. JOSLIN: Once a month. MR. OSSORIO: Is it once a month? MR. JOSLIN: Uh-huh. MR.OSSORIO: Obviously they're going to catch it. MR. JOSLIN: I'm just concerned because there's a lot of brand new codes that come up that I'm sure -- I mean, I've seen some of these that are being done. I know they're not bringing them to current codes of what they are. They're just replacing what's on it. MR.OSSORIO: Is it a building code or health issue? MR. JOSLIN: Would be building code as far as how it's constructed and health issues as far as how it's permitted. Both. MR.OSSORIO: Well-- MR. JOSLIN: It's not structural. MR.OSSORIO: All you have to do is give us a call. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. Page 27 April 19, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. You guys ready to go to the case? Collier County versus Andrew Espinoza, D/B/A Island Concrete Products, Incorporated. Want to go ahead. MR. KENNETTE: My name is Allen Kennette, Collier County Contractor License and Compliance Officer. (Whereupon, speaker was duly sworn.) MR. KENNETTE: I'd like to get composite Exhibit A into the case. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a motion to accept that? MR. JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. MR. BLUM: Second, Blum. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Done. MR. KENNETTE: Okay. This is a case from a homeowner on Marco Island, a Donald Marcotte who had Island Concrete Products come out and give him a price on redoing his coping around the pool. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can I interupt you for just a minute, Allen? MR. KENNETTE: Sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: First let it be known that Mr. Espinoza is not here. Would you address that we do have definite proof that he was served? MR. KENNETTE: Mr. Espinoza was sent two certified registered letters, which he did not claim. I did physically go out to the address that he has on his license, which is at 6080 Golden Gate Page 28 April 19, 2006 Parkway, which is a home now owned by another resident who bought it off auction. So, he is no longer around. They had no way of knowing where he has gone to. We checked different areas and supposedly he has left the county. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No phone numbers work? MR. KENNETTE: No phone numbers worked. Cell phones have been disconnected. All the contact numbers that we had have been disconnected. And the numbers that Mr. Marcotte had was a separate number, which is also a cell number, was also no longer in servIce. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you noticed any permits being pulled? MR. KENNETTE: Nothing, nothing whatsoever under his name or the business name. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any problems, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let's go ahead. MR. KENNETTE: The contract was written with a 50 percent deposit of $3,082.25 to do the resurfacing around the pool. When the homeowner tried to contact him after several months -- after two months he never showed up. The phones were disconnected. He called us, sent me over a copy of the contract, which is included along with the cancelled check front and back made out to Island Concrete, Incorporated. And no work has been done. The homeowner is out that amount of money, and we've exhausted our, what we know of, to go ahead and try to locate Mr. Andrews -- Mr. Espinoza, and nothing has come up on him. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's a shame. MS. KELLER: That's the second one. MR. BLUM: Is this the only complaint you've got on this guy? MR CANET: Yes, this is the only one. Nothing else. Just this last one. Mr. Marcotte said that he had heard from a friend, but he Page 29 April 19, 2006 . didn't say who, that knew Mr. Espinoza. And he supposedly went back to his native country, which is somewhere in the south. In the Caribbean. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There's all sorts of things that could-- I'm just glad it was only one. MR. KENNETTE: Yes, just the one. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There could be health issues or family issues. Just unfortunate. Anything else, Allen? MR. KENNETTE: No. We just recommend that we'd like to revoke his license at this time for the D/B/A of Island Concrete Products, Incorporated. Recommend a $5,000 fine with $150 process fee, and of course, pay back the owner the amount of $3,082.25. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Zachary, anything? MR. ZACHARY: Nothing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anyone have any questions? MR. BLUM: Once again I'd like to, in addition to what Allen is suggesting, if we can find some way to flag the man's name and the company's name just in case he's dumb enough to come back here sometime that his own personal name will be flagged and come before us before anything gets approved. MR. BARTOE: That automatically happens in the computer. If you, the Board, decide that his license should be revoked, we'll get it entered. MR. BLUM: His name. His own surname as well. MR. BARTOE: Correct. MS. KELLER: I'd also like to see a press release again so people are aware of his name and the company's name. Even though we think he's not here, we could find out that there are other people that are -- MR. KENNETTE: I think Lisa is supposedly going to be doing that, a press release on that. Page 30 April 19, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, and there's always that element -- and I'm really not the nice guy, as you know, Paul. But I always feel real awkward when I don't have the other individual here to hear what happened. He could have had an emergency with a child, a family member. There's all sorts of things that could have happened. I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt before I call them a crook. MS. KELLER: Yeah, but he hasn't even contacted-- MR. BLUM: He leaves with $3,000 of somebody else's money, the benefit is gone. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm not saying I'm not going to take action. Don't get me wrong. But there's always that possibility that we may find out some day in the future that something happened we're not aware of. MS. KELLER: Unless he died. I don't know. MR.OSSORIO: If that's the case and he comes to the office and he writes us a sworn affidavit of what happened and he can corroborate that, he's more than welcome to come back to the Board and petition and ask for leniency. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I agree with what the recommendation you're asking for, and I go along with it 100 percent. Mike had just addressed, if we find out in the future and he comes back and makes everything right, he'll be welcome back to this county, if we can verify that there was an extreme emergency that happened. MR.OSSORIO: Our office is customer service, so obviously, if he comes in the office, and, you know, returns the money, we have no problem coming back here and reducing fines. Our office is about getting licenses out there. There's much more control if somebody is licensed than versus not licensed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The whole point of that bringing it up is if we let that be known, do you think you're ever going to see that $5,000 or $3,000 back to the customer? No. But if there was an Page 31 April 19, 2006 extenuating circumstance, then that customer might get their money back. You can slap hands all you want, but I would like to see the customer get their money back. Mr. Balzano, would you come up to the podium? MR. BALZANO: Sure. The only input I have on what you're saying, and I know you're not a softy, he took time to cancel all his phones, but he didn't have time to call the customer and say he had an emergency. Come on. MR. JOSLIN: Since July -- June of '05. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Or they might have been disconnected because of nonpayment. MS. KELLER: I think there's a sense of personal responsibility that if you take a check and cash it from somebody, that you have the decency to call them and tell them you have an emergency. I don't have any sympathy for who comes in later and says, you know, sorry. MR. JOSLIN: Oops. MS. KELLER: I couldn't get to a phone, I couldn't write you a letter. I couldn't -- MR.OSSORIO: Your house doesn't get foreclosed overnight either. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, that's a good point, foreclosure. MR. BARTO E: As Mr. Ossorio said, if his license would get revoked, should he want to have it reinstated at a later date, he can definitely come before this Board. That has happened in the past. MR. BLUM: I sure hope he tries. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I remember one case where we had a man whose child was -- it was a tragic situation. And something happens to family, everything goes on hold. I mean, family comes first, at least it does in my mind. MR. HORN: I believe it was brought to our attention a couple months ago that, if you take more than a 10 percent deposit, being here 50 percent deposit and 90 days go by, it's considered a felony for Page 32 April 19, 2006 the State Attorney's Office. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Uh-huh. MR. HORN: Just curious about that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's -- see if I can remember the number. 489.126-13-1. MR. NEALE: You had the numbers down. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know if that's exactly correct, but, yes. It's anything more than 10 percent deposit you must pull the permit within 60 days and initiate work within 90 days, or it is a felony and statute declares it as not just fraud, but theft. MR. HORN: So we'd be able to refer this case to the State Attorney's Office, I assume? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. LEWIS: Actually, I don't think so. It's not a permittable offense. There's no permit needed for a deck repair. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, it doesn't have to be a permit. But it says start work within 90 days. MR. LEWIS: I think that only applies to state licenses. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm upset with all the deposits that are being done in this county. MR.OSSORIO: You have to look at 489, that regulates tier one contractors and contractors that are regulated by the state. Concrete somewhat is not a licensed contractor under 480, so it's something you may want to look into. MR. NEALE: And the statute actually does address where permits are not required. It says that you have to apply for the permit within 30 days after deposit is made, except where the work does not require a permit, and start the work within 90 days after the date all necessary permits for work, if any, are issued. There's no necessary permit to work 90 days after he takes the money. He has to start the work. MR. LEWIS: That deals with state license holders, right? Page 33 April 19, 2006 MR. NEALE: No, this is all contractors. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: State law. MR. LEWIS: State law does not have a license for labor installation, does it? MR. NEALE: But because Collier County operates under 489, he is still covered. MR. LEWIS: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Personally, I don't think the contractors out there know this. I'd love to see if there's any way we can do it, or just make a copy of the statute and put it on the desk, and when we renew licenses, everyone gets a copy of it. Because we have contractors out there that are committing felonies and they're not aware of it. MR. OSSORIO: It's out there. It's on our desk. It's right out front. We have a government day on Friday, which we're going to pass all that information out in the mall. So we're out there. They just choose not to read it. Most good contractors know about the 10 percent. Especially during the hurricane time. They can't take more than 10 percent due to the fact they know they have to get a building permit. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If I can take deposits on all the contracts I have right now, I might be tempted to leave. MR. JOSLIN: Maybe I shouldn't say anything at all -- MS. KELLER: We'd find you. MR. JOSLIN: I have a situation where I do renovation work. I go in and fix a swimming pool or complete package, and I take a 50 percent deposit on that contract. And then I get 50 percent when I'm done. MR. GUITE: That's how I'm doing my contracts. MR. JOSLIN: I'm sorry, but if you don't get it, well, that's too bad for you. But as long as the work is completed and done correctly, I don't see the problem. Page 34 April 19, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And as long as you follow that mandate of the time schedule. MR. JOSLIN: Right. Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you don't follow that time schedule and you took more than 10 percent, then you are guilty of theft by Florida Statutes. Correct, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And there's no discussion? MR. NEALE: No, but there is a notice requirement that the owner has to put the contractor on notice that they're in violation also. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, really. MR. NEALE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let's move on. Let's address this. No defense, no other comment. Do you all have any questions? MR. GUITE: Has the homeowner gone to the Sheriffs Department? MR. KENNETTE: He went to the sheriffs on Marco and they referred it to us that they were not handling it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So the charges are 4.1.3, abandoning a construction project in which he or she is engaged or under contract, or under a -- because he never started, so the or is crucial -- or under contract as a contractor. Project may be presumed to be abandoned if the contractor terminates the proj ect without cause, or fails to notify the owner in writing of termination of the contract and basis of same, or fails to perform work for 90 consecutive days without just cause or notice to owner. How do you all feel? Discussion or a motion? MR. JOSLIN: I think it's pretty well cut and dry. I'll make the motion. That petitioner -- I'm sorry. The case number 2006-06, Andrew Espinoza, that we have found him guilty of the administrative complaint of account number 4.1.3, that he be found guilty of this charge and his license -- Page 35 April 19, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, we don't go there yet. Just find guilty. MR. JOSLIN: To be found guilty. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? MR. HORN: I'll second the motion. Horn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? All those in favor? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? Excuse me for doing some legalese here real quick. Board of Collier County Contractors, Collier County, Florida, is the petitioner versus Andrew Espinoza, D/B/A Island Concrete Products, Incorporated, Case Number 2006-06, license number 26416. Cause came before public hearing this date, April 19, 2006, the Contractor Licensing Board for consideration of the administrative complaint filed against Mr. Espinoza. Service of the complaint was made by certified mail twice rejected. All telephone number contacts were -- I'm going a little over here, Mr. Neale. All telephone contact was impossible because all numbers had been cancelled. Place of residence had been foreclosed upon and no one knew the whereabouts of Mr. Espinoza. Therefore, Mr. Espinoza was not present at the meeting. The Board having heard testimony under oath, received evidence and heard arguments respective to the appropriate matters, issues its finding of fact, conclusion of law, and order the Board as follow: that Mr. Espinoza is the holder of record of certificate of competency number 26416. That the Board of Collier County Commissioners, Collier County, Florida is the complainant in this matter. Mr. Page 36 April 19, 2006 Espinoza not only was not here, but not represented by counsel. Number four, all notices required by Collier County ordinance 90-105, as amended, have been issued. The allegations set forth in the administrative complaint are approved, adopted and incorporated by reference of findings of fact. The administrative complaint set forth in the complaint was 4.1.3, abandoning a construction project under contract by terminating and the fact that he failed to perform work for 90 days consecutively without just cause or said notice to the owner after having received a 50 percent deposit in excess of $3,000. Conclusions of law allege and set forth in the administrative complaint are hereby approved, adopted and incorporated therein. Next we'll do penalty phase. Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Yeah. The penalties that the Board can find -- I'll take a moment here and I'll read them all off for you. They include a fine, revocation of license, revocation of certificate of competency, suspension of the certificate of competency. Denial of issuance or renewal of certificate of competency, probation of a reasonable length, not to exceed two years. Restitution, a fine not to exceed $5,000. A public reprimand, re-examination requirement, denial of issuance of permits, and reasonable legal and investigative costs. The Board in posing these sanctions shall consider the gravity of the violation, the impact of the violation, any actions taken by the violator to correct the violation, any previous violations committed by the violator, and other evidence presented at the hearing by the parties relevant as to the sanction that is appropriate to the case given the nature of the violation. The Board also shall issue a recommended penalty of the State Construction Industry Licensing Board. This penalty may include a recommendation for no further action or recommendation of suspension, revocation or restriction of the registration in the case of registered contractors, or a fine to be levied by the State Construction Industry Licensing Board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any questions? Page 37 ,-~. "'-;.--~-" April 19, 2006 MR. GUITE: Any previous complaints on this gentleman? MR. KENNETTE: No, none. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mind you the recommendation of the county was revocation, restitution of $3,082.25 to the homeowner, $5,000 fine, plus $150 cost. MR. HORN: Mr. Chair? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. HORN: I think we should follow that, and also forward it to the State Attorney's Office for their decision on whether or not to pursue fraud against him. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would that be what we do, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Huh? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Forward it to the State Attorney? MR. NEALE: Certainly the staff can do that at their prerogative, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Have you been following that case of -- what was the Shield -- the Fort Myers operation? MR. OSSORIO: Tropical Shield? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Tropical Shield. Have you been following that on the news. It's all over the thing. MR.OSSORIO: I know that we took our findings of fact and gave it to DPR. And I know they forwarded it to the City of Sanibel maybe, or City of Fort Myers, and they're going to take their findings of facts and incorporate theirs, so we were the first ones. And so they're taking all your information and following through. What we do here, they're going to do over there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They mentioned that on television when they had the bankruptcy hearing about a week or so ago. That Collier County had brought up the fact that this possibly could be felony charges and that was being pursued. Good. Okay. Board, what's your wishes? Page 38 April 19, 2006 MR. JOSLIN: I'll make the motion that finding that we have found Mr. Espinoza in violation. The penalty phase we shall make a motion that we revoke his license and that he be fined $5,000. Also $150 for processing fees, and that he be required to pay restitution back to Donald Marcotte a sum of$3,082.25. And that the information be forwarded to the state DBR Board for further action, and be forwarded to the State Attorney's Office for processing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? MR. GUITE: I'll second. MS. KELLER: Can I just add one more thing? And issue PR for a press release. MR. JOSLIN: Be placed in press release also, sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: As amended? MR. JOSLIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any discussion? Call for a vote. All those in favor? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. MR. GUITE: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? None. Order of the Board, based upon the foregoing findings of fact and conclusions of law, which I failed to mention, was a vote of seven to zero. Yeah. A conclusion of law pursuant to the authority granted in Chapter 489, Florida Statute, Collier County ordinance number 90.105 as amended by a vote of seven in favor and zero opposed. It is hereby ordered that the following disciplinary sanctions and related order imposed upon the holder of contractor certificate of competency number 26416. Number one, that his license be revoked. Number two, that a fine of Page 39 April 19, 2006 $5,000 be paid to Collier County. Number three, that an administrative fee for prosecution of $150 be paid to Collier County. Number four, that restitution in the amount of $3,082.25 be paid to the homeowner. Number five, that this be forwarded to the State Attorney for possible consideration of felony charges as per 489.126-13-1. That's it. Anything else? MR. KENNETTE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's the easiest case we've ever done, Allen. Anything else the Board wants to bring up or staff wants to bring up? I do. You don't think these people didn't read this in their water bills. Wow! Did you all see them? You didn't get one? Maybe because your city. I spent half my time explaining those things. Not that I disagree with you doing them, I'm glad you did, but people wanted to see my license. They wanted to know why I didn't have to have a permit to do a repair. They wanted proof of insurance, which my agent is going absolutely bonkers with. The only thing I'd say you might tell them in the future is, that a copy of the certificate of insurance that we give to Collier Building Department would be acceptable. MR. GUITE: That would be nice. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That would be nice. People responded to this, folks. MR.OSSORIO: But if I'm a consumer and I want to be the certificate holder and I'm spending $50,000 and giving you $50,000 of my money, and I want to be the certificate holder, I mean, if you want that business, if that's the requirement to get it, so be it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I know, but you figure $50,000, I agree 100 percent. They wanted them for $275 repairs. But you did have a response. So if you ever want to get a response, go through the water bill again. It was interesting. Nothing else? MR. LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, if I could ask staff when they have Page 40 April 19, 2006 the opportunity -- I'm not sure how many Board members have newly amended 9105, but I don't mind, like for 2002. I would appreciate at least getting the updated pages, or any amended pages that there might be. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just a reminder, please put your cases up here so that county can dispose of those bank accounts. MR. BALZANO: What did you do with those for all those years that we've been doing this? No one has had a problem. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We never had bank accounts like this, Paul. MR. BARTOE: No, we have not. And I did not like seeing those numbers in there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you look at these cases, we've got every transaction for three months. MR. BALZANO: So if we black out the account numbers. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's even more information than we need. And only because we're in that society of now of identity fraud. MR. JOSLIN: Yeah. There's so much going on. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This would be a hay day. MR. BARTOE: Correct me if I am wrong, you did say a statement from the bank advising this company has X amount -- X amount of dollars on deposit with us would be sufficient? MR. JOSLIN: That's what I had. I mean, I would think that would be more than sufficient. MR. BARTOE: I would think so, but I just wanted the Board to verify that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You should have seen this one stone guy that we approved, when I said solid, there was no doubt. That's why I asked the other guy if he did repairs. Because I've never had that kind of information before. MR. BALZANO: Joslin did that when dinosaurs walked the earth. They didn't have banks when he got his license. Page 41 April 19, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? MR. BARTOE: 49 days. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 49 days? MR. BLUM: 49 wonderful days left. MR. NEALE: The staff also had talked about doing a quick workshop on the ordinance amendments today. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Five minutes. (Whereupon a brief recess was taken.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'd like to call back to order the Contractor Licensing Board. This is just a mini workshop on amendment that are coming up for ordinance number 2002-21; is that correct? Just refinement of revisions of ordinance number 2002-21. Is that the new number? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale. So we've got to change this -- well, that doesn't have anything to do with our orders. MR. NEALE: I mean, it still is 90-105 as amended. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that ever going to change? MR. ZACHARY: Unfortunately, it really sort of doesn't. It's one of those that hangs around forever and forever unless they do a complete rewrite of the ordinance. MR. ZACHARY: And we can't do that. As far of the rewrite, we can rewrite the whole ordinance specifically saying this ordinance repeals, supersedes -- MR. NEALE: 90-105. MR. ZACHARY: -- 90-105. Which would be a nice thing to do. It cleans things up. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Who's going to run this? MR. OSSORIO: Well, I'll start just to give you a little overview. What the county wants to do and what Mr. Zachary is going to do. You have the 91 2002-21 ordinance we gave copies to you. Some things are highlighted in yellow. And those are the things that the Page 42 April 19, 2006 county wants changed and then we can go through it and you can ask questions why we want them changed and your concerns. And then when we proceed this month next month until June we can add to it or delete it, so it would be a nice easy transition so September we can get this thing approved by the BCC. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So you want to do this now, Michael? MR. OSSORIO: Well, I'd like to go ahead and start by just saying you'll see a lot of things highlighted in the hours of testing. And we're changing that to the fact that it's no longer Experior testing, it's called Prometric and they don't go by hours tested, they go by just the practical versus the business and law exams. They're shying away from the hours. You just got to take a roofing exam, or you've got to take a business and law exam. It's not called the two-hour test or three-hour test like it used to be years ago. MR. JOSLIN: Is there a time specific? MR. OSSORIO: There might be a time specific, but it's not going to be required as of testing. They don't go by that category anymore. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So that's just a change because of semantics, right? MR. OSSORIO: Yup. MR. LEWIS: In other words, you can go take a test, but you can't take it for a week. There's still like a two-hour time limit or whatever. MR.OSSORIO: Especially, you'll come in the office and we'll give you the testing, what's in the test, or what's the requirements. Where are the books at. How do you get the books, and tell us this is the category you need to study for and this is the test you need to take. It's not the four-hour test anymore versus the two hour, whatever. MR. JOSLIN: I got you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Now, what about the items that are lined out or underlined, are those changes? Page 43 April 19, 2006 MR OSSORIO: Maybe Mr. Zachary can give you -- I believe what's underlined is something that was added to. When they come back again, they won't be underlined anymore. Mr. Zachary can you tell you that. MR. ZACHARY: I think this version had the underlines and the strikes in it. MR. NEALE: From the previous? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So it doesn't apply to this? MR. OSSORIO: No. Everything in yellow we want to take a look at. And then I believe you might have highlighters up there. I think we passed those out? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, so far the only thing I'm seeing highlighted is the two hour, six hour. And two hours. MR. OSSORIO: There are some in there. You look at page 17, 1.6.3.2.21, gasoline tank and pump operator or contractor. I believe you want to delete that. MR. BARTOE: Staff would like to see that classification of a license eliminated because we only ever had one company license and that has been canceled, and we've talked about the fire officials and there is state licensing and it's, if you go to page 19, it's covered under pollute and storage contractors, and it's a state license inspected and controlled by the fire department, plus the DEP. So we have no reason to have that license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. I have a good friend that's this business, and I didn't think there was a county license. MR.OSSORIO: It's on page 21. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do we need to vote on these? MR. NEALE: No. At this point you're just workshopping. As Mr. Ossorio suggested earlier that for the next couple of months the Board can continue reviewing these and then present the Board's suggestions to the BCC, then the BCC would act on it in September. Potentially review this between now and the next meeting. Page 44 April 19, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Page 21. MR.OSSORIO: You see on page 21, it says tree removal and tree trimming contractor. It doesn't actually specify stump grinding. That was initiated with the hurricane. Did it require a license for tree trimming? Is stump grinding considered trim cutting? I think it does, but some people don't agree with me. I want to maybe clarify that, maybe have a couple tree contractors in here because that's considered construction. Tree trimming itself is considered non-construction, but tree stump grinding is considered construction under the category, so __ for worker's comp purposes, so I'd like to see it in there. But, what I say doesn't mean it's going to happen, it's just something I think we should take a look at. MR. BALZANO: We'd also like to add testing to the tree service. Right now they just take a business and law and not a practical. We've had a couple workshops with the tree people, and we had some of the contractors there in one of the testing companies trying to get the input from everybody to make a test that covers the actual cutting of the tree. The way it is right now, a guy takes a test and knows how to balance his checking account, but he drops an 8,000-pound tree on your house. So what we want to do is make that a written exam. So we're talking about that. We might have a workshop and invite those subcontractors in here. MR. NEALE: And some other jurisdictions, there's fairly, strangely enough, there's some fairly strict restrictions on tree trimming, as far as you can't hatrack trees and things like that. Actually, there's an arborist here on staff that consults on that kind of thing. So, something that, you know, if the county is contemplating imposing those kinds of ordinances, something the Board may want to consider. MS. KELLER: What are the state requirements? Because I know after the hurricane we allowed that the state, anyone who is licensed in the state to be able to do work here. Does -- do other counties require Page 45 April 19, 2006 testing? MR. BALZANO: We're about the only county in the state that has a tree license. I believe also Palm Beach County. Lee County doesn't require anything. They're not regulated. It's not a state license. There are arborists, but it's two different things. What's happening is code enforcement works under land development code and the -- I keep wanting to call them tree huggers, but they're not. They get upset when they see a tree service hatrack a tree, as Mr. Neale said, or trim a tree improperly, and they come to us, well, we don't have a code to go and assess the contractor a fine for cutting a tree the way they don't like it done. So what we have is two different Boards with two different sets of rules for one contractor. So we're going to try to put it all together so we can actually bring that person here if they violate the land development code or our ordinance. MR. NEALE: And based on experience in my practice, I actually had a client that was fined $25,000 in Lee County for having trees improperly trimmed, because Lee County does have a tree trimming ordinance. These were not mangroves, these were just plain old trees in a commercial parking lot. So, if the county here particularly decides to impose a tree trimming ordinance, it could be significant for a landowner, because this was a property owner who hired a, allegedly Lee County licensed tree trimming service, and they hatracked all the trees and cost them $25,000. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, but then we get into that mess. Do you remember that one down in Naples where we have unbelievable restrictions on signs. This guy had the sign that was allowed, but then the county also made him plant trees in certain locations until all of a sudden the trees grew up and covered the signs. And he couldn't change the sign so he hatracked the trees so that his sign would show again. But because he hatracked the trees, everyone wanted to nail him to a cross. MS. KELLER: What's hatrack? Page 46 April 19, 2006 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I mean it's a catch 22. Just chop the top off. MS. KELLER: How else do you do it? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you remember that case? MR. BALZANO: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I mean, we didn't do anything to him. MR. NEALE: That's effectively what happened to this client of mine, the trees were trimmed to show the signs in the shopping center, but they were hatracked when they trimmed them so it was sort of this ugly loop he got into. MR.OSSORIO: There is a -- I wouldn't say a tree ordinance, but it is in the land development code -- it's called a pruning. And code enforcement is more than welcome to take an owner of a business in front of their code board. They just can't take the qualifier before the code Board. We only take building code violations under the bare minimum building code of Florida. MR. NEALE: So here's -- Mr. Ossorio brings up an example is, the contractor messes up, the owner gets dragged in under the pruning ordinance and he has no recourse through this Board against the contractor who slighted the pruning ordinance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We got the contractor here because the way he trimmed the trees. MR. BALZANO: There's no violation because we don't have an ordinance to tell him how to cut trees. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We ended up telling him to buy -- MR. BALZANO: What it is, is under the land development code, I think tree trimming is covered only on commercial property. If they had their way, they're going to tell you how to cut a tree on your property. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Those are tree huggers. MR. BALZANO: Naturalist, whatever you want to call them. MR. JOSLIN: I went through some college in agriculture, and I Page 47 April 19,2006 believe there is a certain method on cutting trees, otherwise you can stunt its growth or change its shape or something of that nature. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, my gosh. MR. OSSORIO: There is a lot of restrictions, but I just want to keep -- like Paul said, we did have a couple good workshops a couple months ago. And if we can see some language in there that says you have to take an exam to be a licensed tree trimmer, that's all we're looking for. I don't think we need to do this pruning -- some simple exam about not spiking, you know, block and tackle, something to that nature. Something easy for safety reasons. Because there is a lot involved when you're cutting a tree. MR. BLUM: There's a lot of safety issues that really should be, yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Next page, 29. MR. OSSORIO: For that it's not in Gainesville. Gainesville or Experior testing. It's called Thomas Prometric. We're going to be changing that language in there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Are we still going to use Experior as well? MR. BARTOE: There is no Experior. MS. KELLER: They were taken over? MR. BARTOE: I suggest that it should read the approved examiners for purposes of administering proper exams as required by this ordinance is any testing agency with comparable standards recognized and approved through the state and approved by you, because that's what we're doing now. We don't need a company name in there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't need a name in there. Because when we make the change, we don't have to address it. MR. BARTOE: Correct. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We had last year. MR. BALZANO: They keep selling out. Thomas Prometric Page 48 Apr1119, 2006 bought Experior, and Experior bought Block. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Number 30. MR. OSSORIO: Page 30. I added that in there. It's something that we can discuss. We put the -- I would say the cart before the horse in terms of when we had the hurricane, the Board of County Commissioners issued a state of emergency, and the very next day we had every single tree contractor from all the way from Alaska down to Bonita, and we were actually giving those licenses out, temporary license before the Board, our licensing Board, gave the approval to do so. So I would like some kind of language in there that specifies the building director, once he deems that there's a life safety issue under the disaster, that he has the ability to grant some kind of a tree license checking workers' comp insurance for a week or two so the Board can meet. Because, obviously, we met a week later, or five days later, and we authorized what we already did. So maybe you want to redo that circle just for the trees. Because, obviously roofing, you know, no one is going to put a roof on two days after the hurricane, because somebody is going to be down trimming some trees and they're going to be canvassing and that's something we should look into. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I agree with that. MR. NEALE: There would be essentially what they would be provisions to license subject to the meeting and approval of the Contractor Licensing Board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Asplundt and all those guys that came in? MR. OSSORIO: There was a lot of companies that were legitimate companies from Illinois, Arkansas, Tennessee that actually, as the hurricane is bearing down, they're driving down. So the very next day they're in the office, we have no lights, and they want to get a license. And we said, well, the Board hasn't met yet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And we want them to be here. MR. OSSORIO: We want them to be here. Page 49 April 19, 2006 MS. KELLER: Who declares those State of emergencies? MR. OSSORIO: The Board of County Commissioners do. MR. BLUM: The governor too. MR. OSSORIO: The governor too. MR. NEALE: And for locally the Board of County Commissioners does. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And then you're addressing 2.11 -- 2.11.1 ? MR. OSSORIO: Yup. It goes all the way to -- yeah. It says declared emergency contracting trade shortage. Whatever it is, subcontractor licensing ordinances. So I think six months is fine. It's just that we want to be able to go ahead and give a license out and then in front of the Board and get a resolution. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're talking more than trees here? MR. OSSORIO: No, just the trees. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just trees. Okay. MR. OSSORIO: It says the Contracting Licensing Board is hereby authorized to declare an emergency. So you would have to -- right now you would have to declare that there's an emergency and gave us the power to go ahead and grant these temporary licenses without the exams. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I see. MR.OSSORIO: We would like to go ahead and say-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just do it. MR.OSSORIO: The building director or his designee has the ability to, if there is a declared emergency by the BCC, just temporary, just for trees. You can do all the others, the aluminum contractors and the roofers, because obviously no one is going to be doing that two or three days after a hurricane. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I think that one got written that way because they forgot what a hurricane was like. MS KELLER: What about windows and stuff? Page 50 April 19, 2006 MR. OSSORIO: That can be addressed four or five days after. The Licensing Board can take tests and -- MS. KELLER: Not if it's pouring rain. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Same way with roofs. You have to deal with it. MR. OSSORIO: Nobody is putting windows in two days after a hurricane. MR. JOSLIN: This would be more or less for clearing roads and getting access. MR.OSSORIO: Electrical, you know, yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. GUITE: I have a question. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: On what? MR. GUITE: Page 21. The tile and marble installation. My question is -- a lot of my jobs, I used to, I don't anymore. I try to stay away from -- I let Mr. Joslin take care of that. The brick coping on a swimming pool, a lot of times I will contract brick and tile. Would that come under the classification of stone, brick? MR. BALZANO: It says natural stone. MR. GUITE: Well, natural stone is 100 percent brick. What license would I need to set brick? MR. OSSORIO: Well, there is a category that says masonry and brick products. I believe it says under masonry contracting. I don't know what page it's on. It's on there. MR. BARTOE: I agree with Mr. Guite, why does he need a second license, correct? MR. GUITE: Right. A lot of the stones you're setting is precast stone anyway. MR. OSSORIO: I don't think we would give you any kind of ticket just because the license overlapped. If you were -- I don't think a tile contractor can do a brick house. MR. GUITE: Oh, no. Page 51 April 19, 2006 MR. OSSORIO: I think it's flat work and you're the tile or whatever it is around the coping, I wouldn't have a problem with that. MR. GUITE: I always wondered that. I was out doing a job, are they going to come over and stop me for setting brick? MR. OSSORIO: It's coping. It's called culping not brick. MR. BALZANO: It would still fall into the clay product and stone which you can do with your license. MR. GUITE: Okay. That's clarified. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm not coming up with anything else. MR. JOSLIN: I have something under the pool situation. MR.OSSORIO: Hang on, Mr. Joslin just real quick. Mr. Zachary might have a statement or two. Under 4.1.8.1. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give me a page number. MR. OSSORIO: Page 35. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Got it. MR.OSSORIO: We're actually going to make a new category, 4.1.8.2. You can probably see it should be highlighted in there. Basically, that's probably going to read, it says, contractor fails his or her contract obligations. We did have a scenario a couple months ago the BCC got involved with, and they recommended that we mandate the ordinance in this particular way versus variances when a contractor causes financial harm. These days a variance costs a tremendous amount of money. So if I am putting a screen enclosure up, and four or five years later it didn't meet setbacks, now the homeowner has to go in front of the Licensing Board and goes through BCC for a variance process, who is going to pick up that tab? The Board wants specific language in there specifying that a contractor will be held responsible for any kind of a variance process for monetary loss by the consumer. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you very much. MR. JOSLIN: If the consumer happens to be a owner/builder, the owner/builder then pays. Page 52 April 19, 2006 MR.OSSORIO: We don't do anything. MR. BARTOE: We can't control other people. MR. JOSLIN: Only if it's a licensed contractor that did the work? MR. OSSORIO: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That has been a nasty issue in which they criticized a lot of different developments because they're having so many variance questions. That they seem to be approving all of them. But we want to continue. That's enough said. MR.OSSORIO: But I know that Zachary and myself have been looking at specific languages and know that we have something -- I don't think it's concrete, but something you're going to see in the next couple of months. If Zachary wants to elaborate, he can. MR. ZACHARY: No. I think the language that you provided me will tweak that. Mr. Neale will look at it and come up with something. MR. BALZANO: The only question I had is, would that be covered under restitution, which is already in the ordinance? MR. NEALE: Yeah. I mean, it's my belief that it's to some extent a belt, suspenders kind of move. It's probably already covered in under the ordinance, but for the sake of the public and for the sake of contractors so that they're fully aware, it may be reasonable to have it in there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just so you're aware, because it was before you came, Michael, we had a case like this before the Board before. Major, major large builder out of Fort Myers kind of like on the size of First Home, but it was not First home. They built a bay window in a back porch over the setback lines, and code enforcement made them address it, so they cut it off, enclosed it in. Then as soon as they got Co. they rebuilt the porch, they rebuilt the bay window, sold it to the owners, and all of a sudden it came up for variance because of an issue, that contractor came back in here and we nailed him. He's no Page 53 April 19, 2006 longer in business. Do you remember the company? MR. BALZANO: Uh-huh. MR. OSSORIO: Well, I think we're all in agreement that we have the power to begin with. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Most of what the county has been seeing is owner/builders. MR. OSSORIO: But it was one particular case that wasn't owner/builder. One. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And that contractor should pay. MR.OSSORIO: Yes. We never got the information. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR.OSSORIO: I don't know the reasons why, but the homeowner didn't want to get us involved. Reasons to it which I don't know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If they're still around. MR.OSSORIO: I think the contractor is still around, sure. Yeah. The last one I think is on page 42. I think Mr. Neale can address that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: 42? MR. OSSORIO: Yup. MR. NEALE: Yeah. And that's based on last year's amendments, actually 49. Because we've discussed in prior hearings the fine limit under 489 is now $10,000 per occurrence as opposed to $5,000. So, that will be double. While I'm on the subject, what we're also going to do as the legislative session wraps up next month. And as they wrap up, we're going to review all of the changes in this legislative session. If there's any other relevant changes to this ordinance, we'll also recommend those changes be incorporated in there so that we're in conformance with 489. From what I'm hearing, there will be some, not necessarily significant, but some changes made to 489 in this session. So, this Board is looking at it and making Page 54 April 19, 2006 recommendations based on that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The other thing we have been pushing hard for is raising the notice of commencement threshold from $7,500 to $10,000. That looks like that may go. $2,500 is absurd. You don't do anything for $2,500. MR. OSSORIO: No, you don't. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: A lot of the associations are pushing that. I think it's going to move. MR. NEALE: And some of the things I think there, what I've heard, there may be a change to the permit limit, you know, the permit limit amount. The thing defines what is considered contracting, some of the definitions as far as major and significant. Some of those things. But because of economic reasons maybe, so -- MR. OSSORIO: Now, the notice of commencement is actually under statute 713, which would be the lien 101, I call it. I think there might be some changes in that, but that really wouldn't affect our -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Not this Board. MR. OSSORIO: No. It would serve us to investigate when we do. It wouldn't affect this Board at all. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Swimming pools. MR. JOSLIN: Oh, yes. Okay. Maybe sometime maybe eight, nine months ago I brought in a little letter that came out from the Florida Pool & Spa Institute which was going to -- at that time went before the DBR in Tallahassee, bringing out secondary licenses for swimming pool trade. Well, that has been approved. And it has gone to be in writing. There are seven categories for swimming pool industry that will allow the private person to go and have, say, a tile license, to have a plumbing license, to have a steel license, to have a concrete license in the swimming pool trade. My question I guess, or my comment is that, has anyone also heard of this, or aware of it? Because I've got Florida Pool & Spa and they're going to send me some information on this, and I might have to go to a meeting to find Page 55 April 19, 2006 out some details on it. The testing facilities Board is going to be individual swimming pool contractors. They're going to be able to give this test. The test was organized by the head people at the Institute itself and through DBR to come up with the right number of tests and the questions and answers that were to be asked to qualify these people to be able to get this license. This is a license through the State of Florida. Are we going to be able to honor it, or not honor it, or how are we going to handle this? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't think it's going to get out of committee. It's a continuation of the Jim Walter Act. And they're springboarding off of the hurricane event from the last two years. They're doing it on every trade, it's not just swimming pools. MR. JOSLIN: Oh, I see. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And they're also trying to get everything thrown under owner/builder. And let these people -- example, they can't find a window replacement, they can't get a roofer because they're booked out for two years, stuff like that. So that's what they're springboarding off of. But Jim Walter, a lot of the problem -- we're being told it's not going to go through. MR. JOSLIN: This one already has. It's been approved by DBR already. MR. GUITE: I think that's a good idea. MR. BALZANO: That would have to go through the State of Florida through Tallahassee not through DBP. MR. JOSLIN: It has. That's where it went through. MR. BALZANO: I heard that it hasn't passed. MR. JOSLIN: They're giving the test out right now. MR. OSSORIO: Just for argument sake, if there's a test out there, and Tallahassee says he's a licensed tile contractor to do pools only, we have no problem with us taking his $15 registration fee ifhe wants to register with us. I don't think we need to put a new category for tile. I think it's already in our ordinance, so it's not, you know. Page 56 April 19, 2006 MR. JOSLIN : Well, it's not going to be per se, 100 percent full blown state tile license. It's a tile license where you can only work for a swimming pool contractor, number one. You cannot work for a homeowner. The homeowner could not go out and hire Joe's Tile to go ahead and redo the swimming pool. It would have to be going through a licensed pool contractor first. The pool contractor would be able to use this person as a subcontractor, so to speak. MR. BARTOE: But it is a state license, correct? MR. JOSLIN: It is. MR. BARTOE: Then all he has to do to work in Collier County is register with us once he has that license. MR. JOSLIN: Okay. MR.OSSORIO: You know what, I would want to see that copy first. MR. JOSLIN: I'm trying to get all this information so maybe by the next workshop -- MR. OSSORIO: Mr. Dickson is absolutely right. That sounds just like the Jim Walter Act. MS. KELLER: Well, can a tile contractor do a pool? MR. JOSLIN: A real tile contractor? MS. KELLER: Yes. MR. JOSLIN: Yes. It's not like the dock thing where the only people that can work on the dock are the ones that had the license? MR. JOSLIN: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That was classic. MR. JOSLIN: Just to allow a smaller sub trade and to cut down, on employees. MR. BALZANO: What they're trying to do with swimming pools is they're trying to get rid of insurance by making their employees subcontractors, is what it comes down to. I don't know, maybe Mr. Neale has it in his computer. I didn't think it passed. MR. NEALE: What did you say? Page 57 April 19,2006 MR. BALZANO: Where they're going to break down the swimming pool trade into subcontractors to work under the direction of the swimming pool contractor. MR. NEALE: As far as I know, that hasn't been -- I'm going to check that and see. MR. BALZANO: I didn't think it got out. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't think it's passed either. I think it's going to die. The committee is all Jim Walter. MR. GUITE: Along that same line. I got a concern with second entities. All these people filing for second entities, to me it really doesn't make sense. Seems likes they could merge and accomplish the same goals in the end. There's a few of them that I can see qualifying a second company, like we had the irrigation man this morning. That made sense. But in my trade especially, we get these tiles guys coming in, I'm not going to pay workmans' compo I already got two Board members that are exempt. I'm going to qualify Joe over here and his buddy to have their own company. They don't pay workmans' comp, they're not experienced. And I'm afraid we're going to get a lot of contractors out there with little or no experience and they're going to do bad jobs, and they do bad jobs because I see it every day. Tile buckling, the tile is not straight, it's not level, it's not plum, showers are leaking. You know, I think we're going to have a problem with it down the road. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The real problem with second entities is two years ago. We got blasted with them because of the exemption issue. State law says that you can qualify a second company if you need the requirement. I don't have a problem with them because exemptions are going to be gone in another two years. That's the quickest disappearing act you have ever seen. Let them spend the bucks. That's what they're doing it for. I don't think they're really doing it for that anymore, do you? MS. KELLER: A lot of times there's a change in the ownership Page 58 April 19, 2006 structure. MR. NEALE: The Board members know a lot better than I do about it. MR. GUITE: Well, I've stayed up at nights trying to think of a way not to pay workmans' compo That's the only way that you can do it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That only covers three people and they have to own 10 percent of the company. MR. GUITE: Well, a small company like mine, I can hire a couple of guys to work as their own crew. To me, to pay the workmans' comp, it's not feasible. I'm not making that kind of money to pay that workman's compo I'm getting paid the same to set tile today as I was 20 years ago. But these builders are getting a lot more money for their homes and everything. I don't see there's something wrong there. But anyway. I wanted to put on a second crew. I've actually went to my attorney and got his input on bringing them into my company, forming one company out of the two. And it makes more sense to do it that way than for me to have to worry about qualifying them and they're off doing something else that I can't oversee what they're doing every minute of every day. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Plus then you give employees 10 percent of the company. Each employee has to have 10 percent of the company. MR. OSSORIO: They're not called employee. On paper he's not. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. MR. OSSORIO: That's something we're going to have a meeting in June. I know Tom Bartoe and Allen Kennette are going to the construction licensing association meeting with the worker's comp agent in Tallahassee and we'll get some good information about the exemption -- you know, two years ago it was no 10 percent, but you couldn't be in a job over $250,000. So it does -- it's a revolving door. Page 59 April 19, 2006 As Mr. Dickson said, it might change. Next year you could say, well too much fraud, we're going to do away with the exemptions. It's probably what they're going to do. We haven't heard wind of it yet. MR. BLUM: On another note, this gentleman we had here from Ohio, I don't know if everybody heard what he's going to do. He scares the hell out of me. He's going to be here one or two days a week. He's going to qualify it. He's going to have guys working for him, two or three guys working for Centex -- I've done a substantial amount of work for Centex. I'm here to tell you, those guys slam out the product. He's does one project for Centex, he could be doing 300 units. There's no way on God's earth that the licensed guy is going to be aware of what's going on down here. The way he is now, he can do it. That bothers me a lot. MR.OSSORIO: There's no limit of what the supervision means. Supervision means I could call you once a week from Alaska on my vacation saying how's everything going down there. You're just physically and mentally and financially responsible for that company in case anything goes wrong. I don't make the rules. MR. BLUM: You guys know what's happening in the air conditioning business with new construction the last couple years? There's been a lot of stuff coming out. Cold air returns in every room, duct sizes have increased, our values have increased, like Mr. Dickson pointed out. AC strapping. That changes constantly. As far as new codes and wind velocities. They want the stuff anchored even better on roofs on slabs and so forth. This, I mean, I wonder if there's a way to address this. MR. BALZANO: The State of Florida says that supervision can be done with a phone call, just like Mr. Ossorio said. MR. BLUM: It's scary as hell to me. MS. KELLER: But I feel more comfortable having someone like that as a qualifier than somebody who doesn't have this big, you know, successful company in Ohio that's backing him up. You know, at least Page 60 April 19, 2006 there's something behind them. MR.OSSORIO: Well, the consumer needs to understand we don't dictate price and we don't dictate who they here. They should take bids and make a good informed decision, and we tell them. You should look at all the options, where the contractor is located, how far is he driving to. How many permits has he pulled. Those are the things that the consumer has to be responsible for. We can only do so much. MR. NEALE: One of the issues that I think the public probably needs to understand, and the Board certainly does, is that you really almost have two classes of contractors and two classes of construction companies. You have the contractor who is a relatively small business man who may have, you know, five, ten, 20 employees out doing work, and then you have the massive developers like DiV osta or Centex or Lennar or one of those, that they have, you know, one or two qualifiers that are supervising the construction of thousands of units at the same time. And it's a completely different level of supervision from that to what Mr. Joslin or Mr. Dickson does or Mr. Guite does on their jobs. You know, you're there actually watching the work being done at times whereas, you know, for someone who's a qualifier for a major developer, it's a very different level of supervision. And that's just something that the public and certainly this Board, you know, the public needs to understand that you've got almost two classes of contractors out there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well we did good by turning him down. I never personally would have voted for that. MR. BLUM: No way, no how. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Not in a million years. Because if you take any trade and you tell people outside of the State of Florida what you get per unit, or what you get per square foot or what your prices are, all of a sudden they think that you're making a fortune because they don't understand Florida bidding codes. Our prices are high here, Page 61 April 19, 2006 real estate is high, but these houses that are selling for this exorbitant a price. You guys know that, Bill knows that better than anybody. It will take that much to replace those houses at current code. And that's why it's so, you know, and then Wilma comes through and shows why we survived it with no problem. Trees had a problem. We did good. Any other -- MR. BLUM: He will pass the test. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He'll pass. MR. BLUM: There's no doubt he'll pass the test. We'll have an absentee AC contractor doing thousands of homes here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Don't worry about it-- MS. KELLER: Then he'll have to move here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- Centex -- well, I won't say that. MR. BLUM: I know exactly what you're going to say. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's going to get a lesson the hard way. They eat subcontractors for breakfast. Anything else? Motion to adjourn? MR. LEWIS: Motion. MR. JOSLIN: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We are adjourned. ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11 :30 a.m. CONTRACTOR'S LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON, Chairman. Page 62