BCC Minutes 01/29/1980 W
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January 29. 1980, Naples. Florida
LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Board of County Commissioners in
and for the County of Collier, and also acting as the Governing Board(s)
of such special districts as have been created according to law and
having conducted business herein, met on this date at 1:45 P.M. in
Workshop Session in Building "F" of the Courthouse Complex with the
fOllowing members present:
Chairman: Cl1ffo"d Wenzel
Vice-Chairman: Thomas P. Archer
John A. Plstor
C.R. "Russ" Wimer
David C. Brown
ALSO PRESEtlT: Darlene Davidson, Deputy Clerk: C. William riorman.
County Manager: Donald Pickworth, County Attorney; Dr. Neno Spagna,
Planning Consultant; Danny Crew. Planning Director: Jeffory Perry,
Zoning Director, Irving Berzon. Utilities Director; ~~ry Morgan, Admin-
istrative Aide to the Board; and Deputy Chief Raymond Barnett, Sheriff's
Department.
AGENnA
1. Presentation of special repor.t on
building height and density lIS
requested by the Board
eoc~ 051 P~CE 279
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January 29, 1980
PRESENTATION OF STAFF REPORT RE BUILDING HEIGHT AND DENSITY LIMITATIONS
AND DISCUSSION THEREOF INCLUDING REDUCTION OF SAME LIMITATIONS AND AMEND-
MENTS TO PRESENT ZONING ORDINANCE AND COMPREHENSIVE PLAN
Dr. Neno Spagna, Planning Consultant, presented the results of a
study on density and height as requested by the Board during the 11/6/79
meeting. Same report was submitted as part of the agenda package for
today's meeting, copies of which were furnished to all of the Commissioners.
He r.overed the main points of the report and noted that it is the purpose
of the report to provide information to the Board for their action and
referral and not to incorporate any recummendations from the Planning
Department nor the C,A.P.C.
Dr. Spagna explained that reduction in height limitations from 20
stories to 10 stories, as suggested by members of the Board in the past',
will not affect the Rs, RM-l, RM-IA, RM-IB, E-Estates, A-Agricul~ure,
GC, RO, FVR, MHRP, MHSD, TTRV and CD Districts as the heights in these
districts are presently limited to two or three stories and 45' in FVR.
He added that the height reduction would affect a motel, hotel, or tran-
sient lOdging in a PC District, however, such uses are permitted as
provisional lIse and as such remain under the Board's purview for regula-
tion of height. Hn said the GRC District has a height limitation of
100' and residenc~s are not allowed in the C-l District except for a
caretaker's residence and the current height limit for same is 35'.
The Districts that will be affected by a reduction in height limi-
tation are the RT and the RM-2 Districts, located in areas where land
CGsts are high, and in order to justify development of said properties,
the developer must provide generous amenity packages and lower height
restrictions makes the acquisition of such lands more and more expensive.
Dr. Spagna pointed out that if height is reduced, the following things
take place, if density remains the same:
1. Yard setbacks are reduced, thus, open space between
buildings diminishes in RT districts and also front yeard
setbacks are diminished in the RM-2 District.
2. Ultimately, the see-through ViSibility is diminished
in both the RT and the RM-2 Districts.
Height limitations will also effect PUD developments, h~wever,
these PUD's come under the review processes of the Board and the
Board has the authority to limit height on same at that time.
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January 29, 1980
The interaction between fire protection and building height was
discussed with Dr. Spagna stating that during conversations with area
fire chiefs, he determined that higher storied bUildings were not a deterent
to proper fire safety, if built according to the Fire Code. lie said that
all of the flre personnel he spoke with felt that in most cases, the best
way to fight, fires ~n high rise buildings was from the inside and, therefore,
the absence of tall ladder trucks was not a determining factor within the
report.
Dr. Spagna concluded his presentation by stating that, based on the
present Zoning Ordinance and from the standpoint of physical utilization
of the lands ana the buildings themselves, the study shows that one can
put the same number of units in a ten-story building that they put in a
twenty-story building but, from the developer'~ standpoint, the amenities,
especially along the Gulf Coast, in Districts RT and RM-2, would be diminished
as well as losing much of the "see-through visibility" between buildings, if
the heigh restrictions are such so as to encourage lower, sprawling buildings
in these Districts. Dr. Spagna noted that staff has tried to keep this
report as "open minded" as possible to allow the Board to have every
opportunity to look at the facts and determine for themselves, with no
prejudice, what, if any, action they may wish to take regarding height
and dens i ty.
Chairman Wenzel expressed concern with the or~l report as presented
by Dr. Spagna regarding the lack of coverage on the topic of density. He
noted that he felt that 1f one was to lower denSity, there would be no
need to worry about the height of buildings. He ~eminded Dr. Spagna that
he specifically asked for a report concerning the effects of lower denSity.
Dr. Spagna replied that he had hoped that that question was answered and
Chairman Wenzel asked him if he was satisfied with the present ceiling of
30 D.U. per gross acre?
In way of an explanation regarding Chairman Wenzel's concerns Dr.
Spagna stated that there are no buildings in the RN-2 District that have
30 D.U./per acre due to the formula used to determine the D.U.'s/gross
acre. He said it was nearly impossible to build more than 23 D.U.'s/
gross acre in the RM-2. When asked by Chainman Wenzel why the figure 30 was
in the Zoning Ordinance if it could not be attained, Dr. Spagna stated that
the figure of 30 D.U. is not designated for the RH-2 District within said
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051 pm282
January 29, 1980
Ordinance; the RM-2 District's density is determined by formula,
which is based on the relationship of land area to the apartment unit and
related open space, off-street parking, landscape area, and it also sets
a requirement of a minimum of 4500 sq. ft. of space for each unit. Dr.
Spagna stated that the Planning Department has gone over the pertinent
figures many times and has concluded that the only way density could
supersede 23 D.U./gross acre is if the developer were to build one apart-
ment building on a vast amount of open space, and this is not economically
realistic. Dr. Spagna noted that in the RT District, a developer may build
30 units per acre, however, these are not residential units with kitchens in
them, they ar'e primarily hotels, and motels, for transient dwellings.
Regarding the concern of Chairman Wenzel about the term "unlimited
height" as appl ierl to past PUD's, Dr. Spagna explained that at the time,
the PUD was approved, there was no limit to height in the respective
District. He noted that was around 1973. Chairman Wenzel stated that he
understood that at that time there was still a limit to height of 100
feet, and he was sure if that was not the case, then the limit had been
raised to 200 feet. He said that the whole "density and height" limits
both in the past and present are confusing; he feels there is a lack
of continuity with re~pect to same: and, he did not feel that his questions
have been answered.
Commissioner Pistor asked for an explanation of Page 13 paragraph 3,
of the report being discussed, and Dr. Spagna explained that higher buildings
require open spaces between tnp.m in the present Zoning Ordinance, and lower
bUildings require less of these spaces, in terms of setbacks. Therefore,
said Dr. Spagna, what you end up with in the case of a lot of lower
buildings is wall to wall construction, rather than open space through
which to see. Dr. Spaga stated that if people are liVing in lower bUildings,
then they have to be spread out further apart and this necessitates using
automobiles to get access to amenities, to a greater degree than if there
was a concentration of people living near to these amenities, such as the
beach. Commissioner Pistor disagreed with Dr. Spagna's theory regarding
automobiles and noted that if a building was 20 stories and had 100 units,
ar.d in light of the fact that parking reQuirements allow 1 & 1/2 cars per
unit, then there wou16 be 150 cars concentrated in one area at a time. Dr.
Spagna clarified his statement by saying that "urban sprawl" does not refer
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January 29, 1980
to only one building, rather, it refers to spreading out over several
miles what could been been concentrated along a small part of that same
area. Commissioner Wimer stated that what Dr. Spagna refers to is the
difference in lands utilized if all the residents in a condominium were to
own single-family houses. Dr. Spagna concurred.
Chairman Wenzel asked for the public to offer their "input" and
feelings regarding the pOSSibility of changing the present Zoning Ordinance
and reducing density and height limitations in Collier County. The subject
of putting the question on the ballot for the people to decide same was
also discusse~. Prior to the registered speakers' Offering their opinions
there was another ~iscu~!1on regarding Chairman Wenzel's earlier statement
that he dfd not like the designation of 30 D.U. anywhere on the books.
Dr. Spagna safd that the only place this figure is listed is in the RT
District and that District is divided into two catagories, all~wing 20
dwelling units for apartments and 30 transient unfts (hotel rooms). Chairman
Wenzel remarked, "I am not speaking of one particular District, rather I
referred to the fact that in Collier County you can go up to 30 units per
acre. I am not saying whether it is an apartment house or a single family
development, or not. 1 think that it is too many units per acre, and that
is my opinion."
The follo~;ng people addressed the issue and offered their opinion
regarding the need to change the present Zoning Ordinance and lower
density and/or height in the County as well as offering their feelings
regardfng placing the iSSllE! on the ballot for th.e general public to
decide:
Mr. Charles E. Turner, representing Coral Ridge-Collier Properties.
developers of Pelican Bay, is opposed to any change in height regulations,
and cited the award-wlnning planning and use of high buildings intermixed
with lower buildings in the Pelican Bay Development.
Mr. Tom Peek, speaking as a private citizen and a past member of the
C.A.P.C. that helped to formulate the present Zoning Ordinance, spoke in
oppo,ition to any changes regarding height aand density and stated that only
a small portion of Collier can be utilitzed for high buildings at this
point in time and he felt the current height and denSity restrictions
were fitting and proper as \~ll as appropriate in relation to the cost of
available lands in the RM-2 and RT Distr1cts.
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051 rACE 284
January 29, 1980
Mr. Wafaa Assaad, speaking as a private citizen, stated that he is
opposed to any change in the Zoning Ordinance as it is a good, workable
OrdInance and all the "expertise" available to the County went into the
creation of said Ordinance in it's present form. He stressed that there is
no research completed to "back up" the need for lowering the density nor
the height restrlctions and there is a need for developers to have a
"constant and reliable" Ordinance both today, and in the future. He asked
the Board to consider the fact that under present regUlations, nearly 40% of all
land that makes up a development cannot be built upon, and is set aside for
amenitles, and/or utilities and roads.
Hr. Jack Conroy,_ President of the Naples Area Chamber of Commerce, urged
the Board to decide for themselves rather than allow the issue to go on
the ballot, and in doing so the Board should seek the advice of those who"
have "expertise" in these fields. Mr. Conroy stated that he did not; feel
the people could make the educated decisions that the Board members could
because of Jack of knowledge of the facts regarding the height and denSity
regulations in the County. Chairman Wenzel rebutted Mr. Conroy's statements
regarding the ability of the people of the County being able to made educated
decisons through the balloting process and noted that he has more respect for
t~e people than that. He said that the Board has the responsibility to carry
out the wishes of the people in Collier County at-large and not those
of the developers.
Commissioner Brown stated that he feels the people are capable of making
good decisions, however, he is demanding a consultant be hired, and a
complete study of the lssues be made and presented to the people so that
they may be congnizant to the facts, and can make an intelligent vote.
Hr. James Vensel, representing the Deltona Corporation, spoke in
opposition to any changes in the present restrictions regarding height and
density.
Mr. John Steinwand, representing the Political Affairs Committee,
Naples Area Board of Realtors, referred to the large amounts of monies
spent in the past to result in the Comprehen~ive Plan and the present
Zoning Ordinance, as well as pointing out that any reduction in density
~11 Collier County regarding high-rise buildings, etc. will lead to higher
cost to the C0nsumer. He was Opposed to any change in the height and
density restrictions as they now stand.
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January 29, 1980
Mrs. Betty Van Arsdale, resident of Collier County and speaking as
a private citizen, stated that she is concerned with the present
height of buildings in Collier County and prefers to see same lowered in
the future. She is in favor of letting the people of the County vote on
whether or n~t the buildings should be held to a lower height and feels that
they can do so properly if given the honest facts to consider.
Lorie Mayer, speaking as a citizen of Collier County, stated that she
ls opposed to plans for highrise buildings that are going to be over 20
stories and constructed with the approval of the Board. Chairman Wenzel
noted that these have been approved years ago as Dr. Spagna stated earlier.
Commissioner Wimer clarified that the PUD's were approved prior to adoption
of the existing zoning regulations. Hs. 11ayer said that she is for lowering
height limits in Collier County.
Commissioner Wimer noted that the only property along the beachfront
that can still be developed into highrise buildings. excluding Marc~ Island,
is located in the Park Shore area and they have already been approved by the'
Board. He stated that the County Attorney has advised the Board that if the
building height were to be lowered' to one-story today, these previously
approved projects could still be allowed to proceed. Chairman Wenzel
concurred.
Ms. Carol LanSdale, an area Realtor, addressed the Board as a taxpayer.
She urged the Board not to change the Zoning Ordinance.
Steve Martin, speaking as a private citizen, urged the Board to put the
question of building hl~ight on a referendum, however, he does not think,
at this point in time, the people understand the technical data pertaining
to the issue of urban sprawl, but they do know if they want to look at
buildings 200 feet tall.
Ms. Madeline Hummell. resident of Bonita Shores, advised the Board
that the residents of Bonita Shores submitted a petiton in December to
Mr. William Walters of the C.A.P.C. with approximately 400 signatures that
calls for limiting the height in the RM-2 District to three stories. Mr.
Walters acknowledged receipt of same and noted that due to the late
arrival regarding the regular six-month reviews of the C.A.P.C. same is
s~~cduled for consideration during the next review.
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January 29, 1980
Arnold Lamm spoke as a resident of Naples and urged the Board to
conduct a study as Commissioner Brown suggested. He asked that not only
height and density be reviewed but the impact these issues have regarding
County h~spitals, schools, sewer and water systems, etc. should be con-
sidered as part of the proposed study.
~lr. Bill McGrath, Vice Chairman CAPC, speaking as a private citizen,
addressed the Board regarding the question of height limitation. lie noted
that he is in favor of rev1sing the RM-2 District so as to permit a height of
less than 100 feet, with a provision that would permit heights up to 200
feet as provisional uses similar to that of the RM-IB District. He said
that this would prot~ct the surrounding property owners of a parcel of land
on which a developer may wish to construct a 200 foot high building, because
it would require a public hearing, with advertisinc, etc., during which the
people could voice their opinion. He said that he is in favor of this type
of revision, rather than lowering the height limitation altogether in the
RI'l-2 District.
Chairman Wenzel stated that the Board looks fONard to recommendations
from the CAPC and referred to the "IoIaster Plan" developed some years ago
in which it was determined that regarding density, the County could support
a population of 250,000 people up through the year 2000. He noted that the
figure of 250,000 ppople will be reached by 1990. HE! stated that "density
is a very important issue, in fact, it is the issue." He referred to the
rapid growth in Collier County and noted that something must be done to
control growth, so"~here.
Commissioner Archer stated that he is in favor of haVing a conclusive
study made of this matter. He noted that he has no particular problems
regarding high buildings, but is concerned with the County's ability to
provide services for the population growth expected in the county.
Chairman Wenzel closed the workshop session at 3:30 P:M. to recon-
vene in Regular Session to hear the balance of the day's agenda.
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