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CLB Minutes 10/19/2005 R October 19,2005 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida, October 19, 2005 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: LES DICKSON William Lewis David Beswick Sydney Blum Richard Joslin Lee Horn Ann Keller Michael Boyd (Absent) ALSO PRESENT: Juan Lopez, Code Enforcement Investigator Patrick Neale, Attorney for the Contractor Licensing Board Robert Zachary, Assistant County Attorney Allen Kennette, Code Enforcement Thomas Bartoe, Building Review & Permitting Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: October 19, 2005 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: September 21,2005 V. DISCUSSION: Subcontractor Specialty licenses. VI. NEW BUSINESS: James T. Ivy - Request to qualify a 2nd entity. Gheorghina Eva Bejan - Request to qualify a 2nd entity. Billy Gurley - Request to be granted a tile & marble license without testing based on his Georgia tile & marble license. Michael Zook - Request to qualify a 2nd entity. VII. OLD BUSINESS: VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS: Case # 2005-02 Gilbert Andreetti vs Exiquio Lopez D/B/A Exiquio Lopez, Inc. IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 October 19, 2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let's go. Good morning to you. I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Collier County Contractor Licensing Board on September 18 -- correct that. How about October 19th, 2005, the day of Wilma? Anyone who decides to appeal a decision of this board will need a record of the proceedings and, therefore, may need to ensure that a record is being taken, which it is, which person -- which record includes testimony and evidence upon which the appeal is to be based. I'd like to start with roll call to my right. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: William Lewis. COMMISSIONER BESWICK: David Beswick. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Syd Blum. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Ann Keller. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Les Dickson. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. COMMISSIONER HORN: Lee Horn. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have a quorum. Any -- Mr. Bartoe, any additions or deletions to the agenda. MR. BARTOE: Good morning, Mr. Chairman and board members. For the record I'm Tom Bartoe, Collier County Licensing Compliance Officer. Staff has no additions or deletions to the agenda; however, there is a new addition to staff, and I'd like to introduce him, Juan Lopez. He replaces Jim Hoopingarner who retired. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We welcome you. And I understand Juan's -- MR. LOPEZ: It's good to meet everybody. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I understand Juan's from Miami, so I would say he has been trained well. I need to motion to accept the agenda as written. Page 2 October 19, 2005 COMMISSIONER LEWIS: So moved. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BESWICK: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Minutes of the last meeting, I need a motion to approve those. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Mr. Chairman -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: -- for approval of one note under the -- I was not present and it shows me as present last month. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Strike William Lewis from being here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So noted. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Are you here today? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Yes. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. We thought we saw you last month, too. MR. BARTOE: I'm sorry -- I'm sorry, Mr. Lewis. I didn't hear you. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: It was the aura. I wasn't here last month and it's noted on the minutes that I was. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Very observant. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: I wanted to be. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: At least you read the cover page. Let's put it that way. Page 3 October 19, 2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need a motion -- I need a motion to approve the minutes as amended. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So moved, Joslin. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BESWICK: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So done. Mr. Bartoe, if you don't have any objection, I'm going to push discussion down to the bottom so these people can move along their ways. MR. BARTOE: That's fine. What that discussion is, is something Mr. Joslin got in the mail. He thought that, you know, he ought to pass by the board to look at and talk about. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let's do that. I'm sure that with Hurricane Wilma on the horizon everyone's got better things to do than listen to us talk about that. So, with that, is James Ivy present? Yes, sir. If you would come up here to this podium. I need for you to state your name and the court reporter will swear you in, sir. MR. IVY: My name's James Ivy. (Mr. James Ivy was placed under oath.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning, Mr. Ivy. MR. IVY: Good morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you will in a nutshell, tell us why and what you're doing. MR. IVY: I've been a contractor for 18 years in the glass industry. I'm just branching out in a different market share with Page 4 October 19, 2005 another company, so I just want to qualify the second company. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. And you'll still have ownership and supervision -- MR. IVY: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- of the second company? MR. IVY: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But not a hundred percent ownership; is that correct? MR. IVY: It will be a hundred percent ownership, yes, of the second company. I'll be probably more involved in the second company than I am in the first company now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER KELLER: What are the -- what are the two different companies deal with? MR. IVY: Glass and glazing. I mean, anything from residential to commercial, but the company that I own now concentrates on the higher-end markets, the -- you know, the bigger homes and stuff like that. The new company is going to try to give me the lower end market, maybe some multifamily stuff and that type of thing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's fairly well known. You know him, don't you, Bill? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Fairly well known. He's been around a long time. MR. IVY: Eighteen years. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Got a big company. No complaints on him, is there? MR. BARTOE: None to my knowledge. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anybody else have any questions? COMMISSIONER HORN: Mr. Ivy -- excuse me -- on our credit Page 5 October 19, 2005 reports, it's a little different than what we're used to seeing, but it says you have outstanding balances due, if I'm reading this right, of $1,036,000 and only payments of about fourteen thou? I'm just making sure I'm reading this right. MR. IVY: I don't -- I mean, we owe on our building, we owe on some trucks and things like that, but I don't know exactly what the exact figure is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've seen that report before from that company and they also include mortgages and vehicles. You do -- you do about what; seven, eight million dollars a year? MR. IVY: Yeah. Six or seven. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Six or seven? Okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It probably -- it says summary. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It's-- MR. IVY: I mean, if they do put mortgages in there, my mortgage is four or 500,000 of that, so that would be it. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Well, the important thing is there's no delinquencies. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: There's no derogatory. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, there's nothing derogatory. And I've seen this True Credit before. They really don't give us accounts. They give us an overall summary. So, it's somewhat difficult, but there's no delinquencies. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Unless one of the board members has an obj ection, I'll make the motion that we approve this second entity. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Need a second. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I'll second it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? Call for the vote. All those in favor? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. Page 6 October 19,2005 COMMISSIONER BESWICK: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You are approved unanimously. For you and everyone else that's here, all of your records are here at this meeting today, so don't go to Maggie today. You can go there tomorrow or whenever it's convenient, just not today. Okay? MR. IVY: All righty. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We wish you well. MR. IVY: Do I go ahead and -- I can leave? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're done. MR. IVY: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Gheorghina Bejan -- Bejan? Is it Bejan or Bejan? MS. BEJAN: Bejan. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need for you to state your name and have you sworn in, please. MS. BEJAN: Gheorghina Bejan. (Ms. Gheorghina Bejan was placed under oath.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning to you. MS. BEJAN: Good morning. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The same thing, if you would. Give us an overview of why you're wanting to start a second entity. I just -- I just had a new baby and I'm thinking of getting my husband involved in a second entity and that's why I would like to -- to do that with my husband and probably in the future I will like to -- for the first one not to be active anymore. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Your husband doesn't work for the first -- the entity you qualify now? MS. BEJAN: He's working here and there, but he wants to start Page 7 October 19,2005 his own then. And I will like to be his qualifier. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And will you have ownership of the second entity? MS. BEJAN: Not yet. As we -- as we set it up -- he set it up, not yet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you do have control over supervision and organization? MS. BEJAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You understand fully that if something goes wrong with the second entity, you could affect the first entity; correct? MS. BEJAN: Yes, I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any complaints, Mr. Bartoe? MR. BARTOE: None known, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So far these are nice credit reports, aren't they? COMMISSIONER KELLER: Look at the end. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Huh? COMMISSIONER KELLER: Look at the end. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: What's going to be the actual work process? What's the scope of the work for the second entity, the one you're going to qualify? MS. BEJAN: Tile and marble. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Same as the first one? MS. BEJAN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Who is Petrea? MS. BEJAN: That's my husband. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's your husband. MS. BEJAN: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let me be blunt. Why is your Page 8 October 19, 2005 credit report so good and your husband's so bad? MS. BEJAN: Because he had made some mistakes in the -- in the past. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And is he going to own the company? MS. BEJAN: His own, yes. He's trying to go back on track. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Trying to what? MS. BEJAN: Go back on track and rebuild his credit and everything. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Give us some direction. Her credit report is spotless. MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: His is terrible. MR. NEALE: There's really no reason for his to be in there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because she's qualifying and she's putting her neck on the line. MR. NEALE: It's -- you know, that's it. It's a corporate entity. She's the qualifier. His report probably shouldn't even be in the packet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Ignore it? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: With that said, I'll make a motion we approve it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I have a second? COMMISSIONER BLUM: I'll second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion. All those in favor? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BESWICK: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. Page 9 October 19,2005 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? You know, we approved it because of you. I would suggest that you handle finances or you're going to lose your license or you could -- could lose the license. Okay? MS. BEJAN: I understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We wish you well. MS. BEJAN: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. MS. BEJAN: Bye-bye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Bye. Billy Gurley. Are you here? MR. GURLEY: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You can come up there. You know the procedure by now, don't you? MR. GURLEY: I think so. My name is Billy Gurley. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you sworn in. (Mr. Billy Gurley was placed under oath.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Tell us why you're here today. MR. GURLEY: I want to see if I can get my license for the marble and tile. I've been in the business for almost 40 years. I own a home here, my wife and I, and we've lived in Georgia for the last ten years and I have a license there. I had taken the Central Examining Board license in West -- in West Palm Beach a few years ago, and I just want to know if I can have it brought up to get my license here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What kind of license -- before we decide if we need to see that -- MR. GURLEY: Okay. Page 10 October 19, 2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- what kind of license does Georgia have? MR. GURLEY: What I did was use this license from Florida when I moved up there and they gave me a license. It's just call-- it's not like this one. It's just called a business license, marble and tile, and sealed by the commissioners in the small town that I had it taken In. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because a lot of -- I've worked around the country. Some states give you licenses just by -- MR. GURLEY: That's right. And-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- by paying a fee. MR. GURLEY: That's right. They do, some of them, but I have taken the test and passed it over there in the Broward County and I -- I think that my score is about an 81. I contacted them over there but they had the -- they didn't have the results. I think after '99, I believe, they discard the old licenses, so COMMISSIONER BLUM: When did you take the test over there? MR. GURLEY: In 1992. COMMISSIONER BLUM: And that -- are you aware of what the procedures are here, what the requirement, the law and the practical and all that? Are you aware of what the testing requirements are here? MR. GURLEY: I -- I think that the test requirements have been here, have you take a licensed test. I believe you have to have a score of75? COMMISSIONER BLUM: No, that's not what I mean. How do I -- how do I phrase this, Mr. Dickson? The type of testing that we do here, some of it's business law, some of it's practical, is it, is different. MR. GURLEY: Right, I -- I did. I had all the books, I went Page 11 October 19, 2005 through the same test that I imagine that's taken here, whatever it is, ten to 12 books I had to read and take a test on, a written test. COMMISSIONER BLUM: And that was in '92. MR. GURLEY: In 1992, yeah. I'm a corporation. I have that stuff here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Neale? MR. GURLEY: I have -- excuse me. I have -- I have letters that I wanted to show you that were written do me by Rain -- Rainbow Tile Corporation that I've known for 30 years. Also, another company called Santa Rosa Marble from Miami and I've dealt with those people for 30 years. And that was -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Okay. Stop. Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm really looking for your direction because I've having a real problem with this. Why don't we just approve everyone who's been in the business 30 or 40 years? If a doctor or an attorney comes to this state, they have to take the testing. There -- there's got to be some limitations. MR. NEALE: It is discretionary on the board, that -- you know, the -- the test is that upon evidence presented by the applicant and the contractor licensing supervisor or the contractor's licensing board shall determine whether the applicant is qualified or unqualified for the trade in which the application has been made. Findings of fact and the conclusions of law regarding the approval or denial of the application shall be made by the board. The board may consider the applicant's relevant recent experience in this specific trade and based upon such experience may waive testing requirements, if convinced that the applicant is qualified by experience whereby such competency testing would be Page 12 October 19, 2005 superfluous. And that's the test under the ordnance. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have you tried to take the test? MR. GURLEY: No, I haven't even -- I haven't been down here at all for that. I just -- I -- I've been living here. I built a new home here about a year ago and this is the first time that I've decided to come down and ask the commissioners first. MR. BARTOE: Mr. Chairman, if I may? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. BARTOE: Page two of the paperwork for Mr. Gurley indicates to me that probably the City of W oodville license is just an occupational tax. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Right. MR. BARTOE: But the Broward Certificate of Competency for 1994, he would have had to have passed a test to have gotten that license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Shall we introduce --let's introduce that. If -- do you need to see it first, Rose? Okay. Let me -- COMMISSIONER KELLER: It's in our packet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's in the packet? COMMISSIONER KELLER: It's on page two. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yeah, it's right there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh, it's above that one. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Mr. Neale, we do have stipulations as far as licenses that have been expired and how long and all that? MR. NEALE: Right. In particular, it's Section 22-191 of the ordinance, Subsection I. The relevant part of that is that if as of the date of the receipt by the county of said new application for a licensure three years have Page 13 October 19, 2005 passed since the date of his or her most recent examination, that the individual has to acquire the former certificate, that individual must pass all then applicable testing requirements. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's been eleven years. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I ask you why you -- why did you leave that lapse? I mean, you had a Florida license. All you had to do was just keep it current. MR. GURLEY: At that -- my wife retired in 1993 from the Broward County school and she wanted her -- to pursue her antique business, and so that's why we moved to Georgia. But I did take this license to -- and I've been working every day, mostly big construction. My last works are for Hank Aaron, the ball player. I designed his showrooms, 50,000 feet at a time that I do up there. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Please -- please understand, I have -- I have no doubt as to your talent, your integrity or your professionalism. That's not what the issue is. MR. GURLEY: Right. COMMISSIONER KELLER: If you have a -- a license an actual -- this is an occupational license, which is something that businesses have to do to register in -- wherever they're working, but if you had some sort of Certificate of Competency or -- MR. GURLEY: I don't know -- COMMISSIONER KELLER: -- or a contractor's license from Georgia, then that would be really important in our decision. MR. GURLEY: I don't even know if they even do that in the State of Georgia. MR. BAR TOE: It -- it would be my guess they do not have a Certificate of Competency in Georgia because you cannot come to Collier County and go get an occupational license to do tile and marble. You have to pass the test and -- Page 14 October 19, 2005 COMMISSIONER KELLER: Right. MR. BARTOE: -- and everything's coordinated between our department and occupational licensing department where you obtain them both at the same time. I -- I'm guessing the State of Georgia is only an occupational tax to do business. And to be honest with you, if I was in the same boat as Mr. Gurley and left Florida to go to Georgia, I would not keep my Florida license active. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else on the board? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yeah. I'm kind of having a difficult time, like Mr. Dickson is, with try and doing -- trying to find a way to prove this. I feel that you have more than ample qualifications for this tile that you're doing, the work that you're working. MR. GURLEY: Yes. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: But in a sense, our hands are kind of tied because if we overlook this for the 20 years experience with really no actual license, occupational -- this Certificate of Competency is a tax. It's not really a license. And being that it's what, 12 years old now, there's lots of things that have changed in the marketplace where -- MR. GURLEY: I follow all of it, sir. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I understand. MR. GURLEY: Yeah. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: But, again, it's not in front of us to look at or to know for sure that that's been done. So, under the circumstances, I would have to say I can't go along with approving a license at this time. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Mr. Gurley? MR. GURLEY: Yeah. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Your projects of recent, can you Page 15 October 19, 2005 give us an -- an indication of what you've been doing the last, say, two years? MR. GURLEY: Yes. I -- I -- the last two years have been two proj ects in McDonough, Georgia and Augusta, Georgia. The one in Augusta, Georgia was the new Jaguar/Land Rover and I've got a photo of one of -- of that particular job in that thing, and that one there was about 22,000 square feet of tile, and that's for Hank Aaron and Associates. And the last one I just finished in March, which was a five months program was in McDonough was the Toyota dealership, also by Mr. Hank Aaron. And, actually, when I moved here, I'm not interested so much anymore as to doing these big projects. I'm more interested now -- I'm 60 -- over 60 now. I'm more interested now is doing something on my own. In other words, I don't want to get involved in hiring men and all that again. I would just get the liability policy, if I need that, and put an ad and do small things; patios, small homes, just something to keep busy. It's -- it's not a money thing anymore. I'm not worried about the money. I -- I could retire, but I'd like to keep busy and -- and this is the only particular trade that I have known all my life. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Thank you for trying to come and do the right thing. We appreciate that. I know all the board members do. Another question for you. In the last ten years that you've been do this, this tile work, has it been you and employees? Have you physically been doing the work yourself? MR. GURLEY: I do physically some of it, but up there I hired one particular crew and send them their 1099 at the end of the year, and just kind of oversee it and do the blueprints and be on the project, and that kind of a thing, and get down on my knees still once in awhile Page 16 October 19, 2005 to keep busy. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Okay. Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? COMMISSIONER KELLER: I would -- MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Dickson, I just wanted to point out on the first page of the packet here, Mr. Gurley has a local phone number on what appears to be a business card that's copied there. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. MR. ZACHARY: I would hope that he's not holding himself out to be a contractor in Florida at this point. MR. GURLEY: I -- I haven't done anything here at all although my corporation is -- is listed here in Florida. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Mr. Gurley, I'm going to make a suggestion to the board. I would think that -- under the circumstances, I think your practical part of your possible testing requirements would be kind of superfluous to this, but I do have a problem with at least the business and law portion. I would make a motion that this packet at this time be denied. If you choose to go and take a business and law exam so that we at least know that you do know that portion of running a business here in Collier County, then I'm sure that -- if you came back before the board, I'm sure it can probably be approved. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I would echo that. I think that's a -- that's a nice compromise. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's a second? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Just a clarification. Is it we're waiving the tests for the -- the practical -- what -- what do we call it? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. Page 1 7 October 19, 2005 COMMISSIONER LEWIS: A practical? COMMISSIONER KELLER: Practical, yes. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: And a -- requiring the business and law to be passed. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I have a bit of a problem with that, but I think under the circumstances the number of years he's been in business, I -- I think that's a fair -- fair analysis of -- to try to give in to. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I can agree with that. MR. GURLEY: Excuse me. Where -- where does that take place? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's just part of a motion right now. MR. GURLEY: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussion? COMMISSIONER KELLER: Well, I think in the past, we have looked at people with experience and if they were -- were required by the ordinance to take the exams and they've taken them and for one reason or another haven't been able to pass them, that we -- if they had passed one side or the other, we had waived that based on experience, but I can't think of -- since I've been on this board a time when we have approved somebody when they were hired to take the testing and waived something without even having you try to take the test. So, I'm guess I'm kind of leaning towards, you know, you shouldn't have any problem with the tile and marble because you have been in the business so long. So, I would recommend that you take both of them. That's my -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. My-- COMMISSIONER KELLER: -- recommendation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have a first and a second, so it's going to come to a vote. But I'm going to vote no against it because Florida does hold themselves higher than other states, just like Hurricane Wilma will prove as compared to three other states or four other states, who have gone through hurricanes this year. Page 18 October 19, 2005 And to waive the testing because he's worked in Georgia, ifhe's that good, the tests won't be a problem for him. But we do have different codes than other states, so I'm not going to vote for that. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Les-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: -- if I can, the reason I -- I'm agreeing with -- with Richard is the fact that he did hold a license in Florida, so he was tested in Florida, you know, eleven years ago or -- or more. I don't know when he -- When did you have your test in Florida? MR. GURLEY: I had a -- you know, when I first came to Florida, I had been a journeyman from Boston in the Union and the Union wasn't quite like it was in New England. It wasn't as strong. So, I was able to use that license to get a license in the State of Florida. It was called a grandfather license -- COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Okay, then. MR. GURLEY: -- before they started testing. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: So, you were never tested then. MR. GURLEY: At that time, but I held that license up till they asked me to come to the commissioners and take this licensed test that I had taken in 1992. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Okay. You clar -- I'm a little confused. MR. GURLEY: Okay. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: You actually took a test for licenseship (sic) in '92? MR. GURLEY: In 1992. I have it here. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Okay. MR. GURLEY: And I -- I -- I scored an 81 or an 82, if I could recall. And then, before that, you were -- you were also licensed in Page 19 ...-..-.."......".---- October 19,2005 Southern Florida, but you were grandfathered there and I had Workmen's Compensation, liability insurance, and had men working for me, and I did some big projects when I was younger. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: All right. Thank you. So -- so, Mr. Gurley has been licensed in Florida. He has taken a test in Florida. And I would tend to agree with you more, Les, if this was more of a structural situation, but this is cosmetics and aesthetics, and we have -- I've never seen any structural tile jobs in South Florida, so -- not that it couldn't happen. And I -- and I look it being more of an aesthetic, so the -- the actual workmanship of it, I think he's proved himself on that with his experience and -- and past projects and the recommendationalletters that he has and also the photographs that he's included. I think they're very nice but I -- I'd still have to agree with Mr. Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Any other discussion? Call for the vote. Let me just summarize, Rose; correct me if I'm wrong. The motion is to deny the packet; however, upon successful completion of a 75 or better of the business and law portion, the board would approve to waive the testing in his particular trade based on his experience, which would require he would not have to come back before this board. Mr. Bartoe. MR. BAR TOE: And may I add that it would be -- if all that happens, it would be possible for him to get a license with a completed application that meets with staffs approval because we have no application as of yet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Right. Be a full application-- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Credit reports? I mean -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Am I correct with the motion? Page 20 October 19, 2005 MR. NEALE: Yes, uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. All those in favor? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BESWICK: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those opposed? COMMISSIONER HORN: No. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Nay. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed, raise. Whoa, we're deadlocked! I have four approving and four not approvIng. Mr. Neale, never has that happened in all these years. MR. NEALE: Fails for lack of majority. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Pardon me? MR. NEALE: The motion fails for a lack of majority. The tie does not go to the runner. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. The motion does fail for lack of a majority. I need a new motion or rework it or something. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I'll amend the motion, I guess, then, if we can't get it that way. I was just trying to just compensate a little bit here. In that case then, I'll deny the packet in full and require Mr. Gurley to go in and take a complete exam and to complete all the testing requirements, bring a full packet to licensing, to staff, and as long as there's nothing derogatory, if he passes all the tests and everything is in line, then he has a license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I have a second? COMMISSIONER KELLER: Second, Keller. Page 21 October 19, 2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? No discussion? Okay. I'll call for the vote. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those opposed? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Nay. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Nay. COMMISSIONER BESWICK: Nay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Hands. Okay. It's 5-3. The board was split but you are going to need to take the test -- MR. GURLEY: All right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- so we wish you well. MR. GURLEY: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You'll have no trouble with it. MR. GURLEY: Yeah. Thanks. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Thank you. I hope he doesn't take that personal, but I was worried about opening the floodgates as well. MR. NEALE: If I could just -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. NEALE: -- for the record and for the board's edification as much as anything, the -- the requirements to prove up the past experience are not a letter from the applicant themselves and a few pictures of jobs that they mayor may not have done. The requirements are specifically affidavits from former employers with specifics as to the number of years of experience, Page 22 October 19,2005 work performed and any other relevant information. Copies of other certificates of competency, if any, held by the applicants in other counties or cities, affidavits from any building director in locations where the applicant has worked, affidavits from any union organization, and affidavits from any other source within the trade applied for. And this board in the past, when that kind of information has been put forth, has been more considerate of these issues than just -- I don't want to be derogatory, but this is pretty purely self-serving kind of information, and there's no -- there's no testimony on the record, no proof that any of these pictures were taken of a job that he mayor may not have performed. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Exactly. And we've also in the past given very little weight to affidavits because, one, we don't know the people -- MR. NEALE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- and so on. MR. GURLEY: Excuse me. I overheard you outside. I've got some letters written by -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The case is closed. MR. GURLEY: That -- that would do no good? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The case is closed. MR. GURLEY: Oh, okay. All right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: The only thing that I -- would persuade me on that whole portion was the fact that he did have a Broward license which, I assume, was a testing requirement somewhere in Broward County. MR. NEALE: And -- and that is one of the elements that the board can consider and should consider. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. MR. NEALE: But typically in the past, those -- and this is just my memory from serving this board for a number of years is my Page 23 ~---"-- October 19, 2005 memory is that the board has considered those licenses much more seriously when they were current licenses. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You know what-- MR. NEALE: If someone comes over with a current Broward County license, it certainly gets more consideration than the one that expired eleven years ago. COMMISSIONER KELLER: One of the things he might be able to do is go to Broward County and get that reinstated and this that would be a way that he could come to us with a reinstated license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I would suggest we quit discussing this and move on because he is not present. Michael Zook, are you present? MR. ZOOK: Yes, sir, I am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would come to the podium. MR. ZOOK: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go ahead and state your name, sir, and I'll have you sworn in. MR. ZOOK: Michael Zook. (Mr. Michael Zook was placed under oath.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good morning, sir. MR. ZOOK: Good morning. How are you tonight? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Good. How are you? MR. ZOOK: Our second time around. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And I wasn't here before. MR. ZOOK: You were -- you were absent before. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But I did read the minutes of the case, so I am somewhat aware. Why don't you take this and I'll just kind of oversee. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: All right. For the starters, let's hear what you have to say this morning regarding coming back before us again. The reason for -- MR. ZOOK: Regarding what? Page 24 October 19,2005 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Your reason for being here? MR. ZOOK: Oh, I'm -- I'm trying to qualify a second business. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. Which is a plumbing business -- MR. ZOOK: Plumbing business, yes. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- correct? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But where did we leave this at the last meeting? MR. ZOOK: Well, there was some discrepancies and so we were asked to submit some extra things and we've done that and there was questions about Golden's slow payment on some of their supply bills, and they are current and up to date. And the only problem was Hughes, and he was paying his bills at Hughes Supply but they were posting them the next month and that threw him behind. He was actually paying cash and going into the supply house. They were sending them up to headquarters and then they -- they became over 30 days and into the 60-day calendar. So, now he goes straight to the supply house here on Airport and pays them and they post it then. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, this was like via mail. He was sending the bill via mail and by the time it got there, it crossed paths. MR. ZOOK: By the time it got there -- and then they were not posting it when they got it. They would post them next cycle and that caused the problem. But both Wool and Hughes are both paid off. And I think I had submitted a -- an update on Hughes because that -- that was the only one that was in question. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And that was the only issue, wasn't it? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I believe so, yes. MR. ZOOK: And then we also added an extra -- an extra person. Patricia Donahue's father was -- was placed into the corporation because he has a stronger credit report than his daughter. Page 25 October 19,2005 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. Patricia was another problem, right? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. MR. ZOOK: Well, she was -- yeah. But, of course, if you -- if any of you have ever dealt with Equifax, they're the hardest to deal with and they are the lowest score of any of the reporting agencies. And, you know, the -- the sad part about it is, you know, if you get something on your credit report and try to get it off, it will take you six months to a year going through the mail with Equifax to try to get things changed. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: With that in mind though, I'm looking at still her credit report as of the one that must be here now. It still shows the Experian and the Facta Beacon and the TUC report. They're all basically saying the same thing. MR. ZOOK: So -- well, she was -- she was five eighty before, I think it was, and now she's six twenty-three with the TransUnion credit report. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Oh,7/11. These are old credit reports. They're dated 7/11/05. COMMISSIONER BLUM: This one is dated -- MR. ZOOK: This is dated 8/8/2005 here. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Is there one more recent in this packet? MR. ZOOK: I have a copy here if you need it. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I -- I see you have a residential address for was is it going to be called Donahue Plumbing? MR. ZOOK: Plumbing, yes. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Are they're going to work out of their house? MR. ZOOK: Yeah. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I mean, is that something -- MR. ZOO K: For the far -- for the time being. You know, you Page 26 "~ .."-~--~----~,._-"....".........- October 19,2005 can't get a new building, you know, and this type of thing until you. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I wouldn't suggest that. MR. ZOOK: Yeah, exactly. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why do -- why do I know -- I could swear I know the name Donahue Plumbing. Am I confusing it with another trade? MR. ZOOK: You must be. You must be. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Has -- has Mr. Donahue been operating as a plumber and has he been-- MR. ZOOK: No. He has a -- he has a roto rooter license. It's a sewer sort of thing, a license here in Collier County. COMMISSIONER BLUM: He -- he doesn't call himself a plumber now? MR. ZOOK: Not yet. He may have, but I didn't authorize it, so I -- I don't know if he has or not, but I don't believe he is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Judge, are you wanting to interject yet? MR. TRETTIS: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. If you do, I need to -- MR. TRETTIS: No. Nothing at this time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Excuse me. Mr. Chairman, I need to -- point of order. Did we swear in Mr. -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I haven't yet because he hadn't done testimony. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: No, Mr. -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, we did swear him in. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: One quick question. I have a -- I have here on page -- it looks like -- it's in the packet. Something from TransUnion, personal credit score on a Jerry Barron? Is that -- MR. ZOOK: That's the father. Page 27 October 19, 2005 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: That's the father. MR. NEALE: If I may for the board's edification? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. NEALE: We're looking et credit reports or the board's looking at credit reports that have no relevance to the case frankly. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. NEALE: The only credit report that has any relevance to the case -- there's two credit reports that have relevance in the case; his business credit report and his credit report. Anything else that's in there is just -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't care about Patricia Donahue. MR. NEALE: You don't care about Patricia Donahue. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Mr. Zook, you just -- you just qualified Golden at this point? MR. ZOOK: I qualified Golden three and a half years ago. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I understand, but you -- currently, you are qualifying them? MR. ZOOK: Yes. And he's -- he's going to try to take this test. He's got all the books now, but he hasn't scheduled the test. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Are you an active participant in Golden or are you just qualifying? MR. ZOOK: I qualify him and I go out and supervise some of the jobs and I go out and work on some of the jobs. And I have taken a more active part once I found out, you know, what you had seen in August when I was here, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. TRETTIS: Richard -- Richard Joslin read him the riot act the last time we were here. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: If I recall the situation, I can remember now -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. At this point, stop. Point of Page 28 October 19,2005 order. I need for you to state your name please, sir. MR. TRETTIS: Tom Trettis. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Every -- everyone knows you. MR. TRETTIS: Attorney at law. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But I do need-- MR. TRETTIS: My former -- my former court reporter here doesn't remember me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Everyone knows Rose around here. But I do need to -- I apologize. MR. TRETTIS : You need a -- you need an address or something like that? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. I need for you to be sworn in and I -- MR. TRETTIS: Oh, sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- apologize for that. MR. TRETTIS: Sure. Rose? (Mr. Tom Trettis was placed under oath.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I know you're an Officer of the Court, but you did offer testimony, so that's why I had -- MR. TRETTIS: That's fine. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- to do that, sir. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I just -- I do remember the case though. And I do remember the -- the whole conversation of why we -- I believe that we did not grant you the license before. That was because of the credit report from the actual plumbing company. MR. ZOOK: Well, from Golden, like I say -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. MR. ZOOK: -- it was semi-misleading because of circumstances, but it's current and up to date now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's the only issue at hand is to satisfy that. Page 29 October 19, 2005 Is that not correct? MR. NEALE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let's satisfy it. Don't go off. Let's don't go anywhere else. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I'm still a little bit -- Mr. Donahue, so, how does -- he and his wife are going to actually effectively run this company; is that correct? MR. ZOOK: No, he's going to be working for his wife. COMMISSIONER BLUM: He's going to be working for his wife. MR. ZOO K: Right. Well, because they had suggested that they have a stronger credit report than hers, we -- we -- the father came in to help support the daughter. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you're qualifying the company. MR. ZOOK: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I can't say this -- as Mr. Neale said, your credit report is the only thing that matters to us. COMMISSIONER BLUM: All right. Is it -- is it appropriate for me to ask as to the professionalism of Mr. Donahue, who's going to be actually out there doing the work, or is that not appropriate? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's qualifying-- MR. NEALE: He's the qualifier. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- the company. That's all on his wife. MR. NEALE: He's the qualifier. COMMISSIONER BLUM: All on Mr. Zook. MR. ZOOK: I'm the qualifier, yeah. MR. NEALE: If he's solely an employee, that is Mr. Zook's responsibility to make sure that he's doing -- doing the work properly. MR. ZOOK: Mr. Don Donahue had worked with me at Dixie Plumbing back in '95-96. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Mr. Donahue did? MR. ZOOK: Yes. Page 30 October 19, 2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If anything goes bad, he's the one that loses his license. MR. ZOOK: I'm -- I'm the one, exactly. MR. NEALE: I mean, it would be like ifMr. Joslin came in front of the board and, you know, we're asking about his employees. You know, it wouldn't be appropriate. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Well, okay. Then I have one other item that if I'm correct here, I've a reporting date of 8/8 of '05, page one of Golden Plumbing's credit report. And it's still listing the same idea that we had before, that the payment trend indication, payments are increasingly late. So, that hasn't changed. That was on the report the last time. MR. ZOOK: Well, it has changed because the accounts have been paid up. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I understand, but according to this record that we're looking at -- MR. ZOOK: That's an Equifax also. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Date of the last meeting, I think it was about a week after that. MR. NEALE: It was August 17th. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: August 17th. MR. ZOOK: Yeah, right. 8/17. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Because that's when I got back in -- in the country, so that's out of date. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Has he got a new one? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, the only thing we can-- COMMISSIONER BLUM: Where's a more recent report then? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The only thing we can go to is these letters. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Can I make a request that when we get these packets, we don't get credit reports from people we are not supposed to use -- Page 3 1 ~-,..__.-._-~~."_.._"--~-_.- October 19,2005 COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. COMMISSIONER KELLER: -- because -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: If you see then, then you're going to look at them. COMMISSIONER KELLER: -- it confuses things and we start looking at them and it just makes things really difficult to -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: If you look at it, think about it, don't show it to me. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Was there a new credit report provided? MR. ZOOK: I'm sorry? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I'm sorry, but was there a new credit report that was provided that was current for -- for Golden Plumbing? MR. ZOOK: No. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. No. It was the same one that was here. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, what do you have to show us that that's been taken care of? MR. ZOOK: Well, I gave you the letters from Wool and from Hughes and the Hughes letter also has a readout -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. But-- MR. ZOOK: -- that shows it's current. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Where are -- I see the letters, but some of these letters, I'm sorry, but we're talking common business here, are not dated. COMMISSIONER KELLER: And, plus, they don't say that their account is -- MR. ZOOK: This is dated September 15th, Hughes Supplies. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. ZOOK: If I may-- Page 32 October 19, 2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See, we've got so much stuff in here-- MR. ZOOK: And then -- And it's also got the -- an accounting -- up the accounting on the second page. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And that's in here. MR. ZOOK: Yeah. There's -- that's it right there. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's it. Here it is. That's the only thing I want to focus on; right? MR. ZOOK: And Hughes was the -- was the major objection as far as the credit reports on Golden Plumbing. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah. Right. It's Golden Plumbing. COMMISSIONER BLUM: We have a letter here from Gorham and for Donahue Plumbing that has a good standing cash account. How is Donahue Plumbing doing business? MR. ZOOK: Well, he opened up cash accounts so he could show that he's got accounts, but he doesn't done anything yet, but he is in the sewer cleaning business. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Whoa, excuse me. MR. ZOOK: No. Wait a minute. When we were here before and you questioned. You said, how about the accounts? He doesn't have any accounts. He has cash accounts. He's opened them up. He hasn't used them yet. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: He's opening -- COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah, but that's not the problem. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: He's opening them under Donahue Plumbing. COMMISSIONER BLUM: The appearance is that he's doing business without a license. That's the appearance. MR. ZOOK: No, he is not doing work without a license. He is not working as a plumber. COMMISSIONER BLUM: This letter is -- Page 33 October 19,2005 COMMISSIONER KELLER: But what we care about is -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: -- a little premature then. COMMISSIONER KELLER: -- Golden Plumbing, their account standing, not the new company which hasn't even started yet. So, of course, it's in good standing. So-- MR. ZOOK: I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER KELLER: -- the thing that we care about is Golden Plumbing. MR. ZOOK: That's what I submitted to you. COMMISSIONER KELLER: And this says Donahue Plumbing has good standing, cash account. They don't care about that because they should have a good account because they haven't started their business yet. MR. ZOOK: That's right. And I -- and I brought you the up to dates from Wool and from Hughes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I'm looking -- let's get off. COMMISSIONER BLUM: This doesn't say anything. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm looking at the copy of the -- from Hughes. It says, futures, 38, 34 and zero to 30 is two sixty eight-six. Year to date sales -- wait a minute. Year to date sales are $556? Last payment was $290. Does that correspond with any of your credit reports or what you have a problem with? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: The dollar amount is still. It just doesn't say the dollar amounts. It just says year to date and it says how -- how the -- how the account was being paid. Whatever amount it was, it was still not satisfactory according to this. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It's continuously slow and continuously late and showing it's going to be -- in them. It's getting later and later and later now. We're talking about $500 and we can't make that payment, then I hate to see what $5,000 would-- Page 34 October 19, 2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, it's obviously fine now. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Now, we've seen other -- other letters from vendors for contractors attesting to their stability and they don't read like these do. All these letters say that, yes, he's a customer. It doesn't say what the credit limit is, how he pays, long-standing, we love him to death. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Good standing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, we've never required those before. COMMISSIONER BLUM: No, I understand but we're looking for something to help this happen right now and we're not getting a whole lot of support with these letters. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I'm going back to the last meeting. The issue was Hughes. Is that correct? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Hughes is resolved as of this September 15th letter and copy of the attached accounts receivable . . InquIry. Does anybody have a problem with that? MR. ZOOK: And point of information, Hughes was paid off again yesterday. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Really small amounts here. I mean, this is very small amounts. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Have there been any complaints again Golden Plumbing? MR. BAR TOE: No, sir. MR. ZOOK: And, Mr. Dickson, he does service work. He doesn't go out and do track houses and high end stuff. He does strictly servIce. COMMISSIONER BLUM: That explains it, but I mean $500, that's -- six months, that's the most he's ever -- $583. Page 35 October 19, 2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else have any other questions? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Any weigh in on this, Bill? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: I'm done. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Someone make a motion. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Are we waiting for a motion? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I can't make a motion. MR. NEALE: In absence of a motion, the chair can make a motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I move that this request for second entity be approved. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Seconded. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion. All those in favor? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BESWICK: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Nay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Nay. COMMISSIONER HORN: Nay. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Nay. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Nay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Raise your hands. Three. Five to three. It's approved. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Whoa, whoa, whoa. I think you've got to take the vote again. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. How many nays? Did I miss one? Three? Oh, gee, there's four. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Another question. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Motion fails for lack of approval. Page 36 ----<,...-~~_.-.- " "-"~"--'----'~--"--"- October 19, 2005 Why are we not approving this? Tell me. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I just feel as though we have a company that here is running a dollars and cents factor of $1200 and is showing a credit report that shows he's late all the time in payments. If you can't run a $1200 company, how do you expect to put this man in business and we're going to end up with a company. What if he does $10,000 worth of business? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Half of my builders, if they came in here, would fall into that category. COMMISSIONER BLUM: No. No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Get out of here. COMMISSIONER BLUM: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Get out of here. You're lucky to get money in 60 days. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Yes. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Once again, maybe -- maybe we can clarify the board's position on the information that was given to us in the packet. If you could maybe just go through the -- the logistics one more time and what the -- what's in the ordinance as far as what is required for Mr. Zook in order to qualify a second entity? MR. NEALE: Well, in order to qualify a second entity, it's essentially identical to qualifying a first entity except, you know, that's just that there's not an automatic right, but a -- a privilege based on the approval of the board to qualify and they have to consider the -- all right. One of the primary things that this board looks to is the -- is the credit report and the standards on the credit report are those set out in the Florida Administrative Code. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Excuse me a second. Maybe if I can interrupt -- MR. NEALE: Sure. Page 37 . --- October 19, 2005 COMMISSIONER LEWIS: -- you for a moment. The credit report of which company, the existing company -- MR. NEALE: The Credit -- COMMISSIONER LEWIS: -- the primary company? MR. NEALE: Well, if it is a new company, there are two credit reports to look at, the credit report of the existing company, if the second entity is a new company. The two things to look at are credit report of the existing company, which would be Golden Plumbing, and the credit report of the applicant or qualifier in the case of a new company. So, it would be two credit reports to look at; Golden Plumbing and Mr. Zook's. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I'll ask you one more question then. Can we -- is it possible, now, I'm asking you -- Mr. Neale. Is it possible that we can grant a temporary license with a -- a monitoring staff or from a recall of this gentleman to come back before this board, say, in six months to update that credit report to see if things have changed in that six months so we can give this temporary license? MR. NEALE: Because of the -- the discretionary nature of a specialty -- of a second entity qualification, the board could grant a license with conditions in order -- if it feels uncomfortable -- if it feels comfortable but not totally comfortable I guess is the best way to put it. The board could -- could take that action if -- if it so deemed the appropriate thing to do. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I have to look at Mr. -- Mr. Gurley and I'm looking at Judge Trettis who I'm sure wouldn't take up his time of the day or -- or come here in his behalf if he wasn't a good man and if he didn't do the jobs correctly. I commend you for being here for sure. I'm just having a problem with -- with, number one, the credit report that's in front of me. Then I'm having a problem with what he's brought before us as a Page 38 ,~_,_"~__..,,"~__,,,,"n__."."_""__~___"_'_'_ October 19,2005 testimony or -- or evidence of the other parties that are going to get involved in this new entity and it's a little scary on my part. That's the reason why I'm trying to see if there's a way to maybe gave it on a temporary basis and then give you a chance to clean your act up as far as that first one goes along with the second one. MR. ZOOK: Well, you've got the bills all paid off. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Well, I can't-- MR. ZOOK: You know, and granted I understand what you're looking at but those credit reports are just guidelines. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I understand. MR. ZOOK: And there's a 50 point spread between Equifax and TransUnion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And I think part of the -- MR. ZOOK: It's crazy how -- how they -- they work. MR. TRETTIS: Richard, I wish -- I wish Golden had a million dollar debt like the other fellow had here, but he doesn't. And I -- I've always appreciated your remarks, Richard. When we left here, he told me, and I told him, get those things taken care of, get a tighter supervision of Golden, which he's done, very tight. But he's always worked with -- with the man, Tim -- with -- with Golden Gate. We'd have -- I -- I would have no objection to -- to a license condition on that at all. I appreciate the board, what they're trying to do, and I think that would be agreeable to us. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have one-- COMMISSIONER BLUM: Mr. Chairman -- MR. TRETTIS: We don't mind coming back near in six-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Whoa, whoa. MR. TRETTIS: -- six months. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. She can't write four people. Page 39 October 19, 2005 Okay. Who was wanting to be heard? Go ahead. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Once again, I'd like Mr. Joslin's recommendation for compromise. I -- I would -- I would definitely change my vote if we could say, ask this gentleman to him come in six months, take a look at Golden again and see his payment history with Donahue and Golden. And I'd be very, very happy with that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me ask you a question. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, you'd see updated credit reports in six moments on both companies? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, please -- please hold. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me ask you a question. We have competent staff. Could staff not perform that function? MR. BARTOE: Uh-huh. Sure. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why does he have to come back before this board? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: That was just a comment of how we are to monitor him. If staff is more than willing and can do this, then I -- I have no problem at all. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I have one other comment for staff. I'm convinced this case got on the track that it did because of all these credit reports in here that we should not have seen. I'm going to ask Mr. Neale, if you would write a letter to contractor licensing, just a one page, one paragraph, what credit reports go with what applications and all the others be left out. So -- and that makes our job easier up here, too. I don't need to be looking -- COMMISSIONER KELLER: This takes a long time to figure out what you need to do and -- MR. NEALE: And, actually, it saves the applicant money. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It saves the applicant money in this -- had this case gone that way, it would have gone through. Page 40 October 19,2005 It's these other credits reports that threw you off track. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Can I just make one more comment, too, about the credit reports? One thing that is really helpful, because they do make mistakes with the credit reports, but what you can do is make a copy of the check, the canceled check, showing that the payment has been made if there are things that are wrong, the same kind of evidence that you're presenting that to them to give to changes. MR. ZOOK: I understand. COMMISSIONER KELLER: If there is a problem, you know, prepare that when you come back so that -- MR. ZOOK: Okay. COMMISSIONER KELLER: -- you know, you're not saying I paid that and we're saying, well, how do we know that? So-- MR. ZOOK: That's very, very helpful. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah. MR. ZOOK: That's good. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Do I have a new motion? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. I'll make the motion then that this packet, the second entity be approved with the conditions that -- and within a six-month period from today's date, he will present to staff or. MR. ZOOK: Maggie. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- the paperwork necessary, an updated credit report on the previous company, which was -- MR. ZOOK: Golden and Donahue. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- Golden Plumbing and also on Donahue Plumbing. If those are in -- intact and they are up to date and correct and at least acceptable to staff, then no need to come back before the board and the licensing will become active and become a true unrestricted license or temporary license. I don't know what the wording I'm Page 41 October 19,2005 looking for. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I make one amendment. Maggie isn't going to know anything about this case. How about Tom, Tom Bartoe? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Tom Bartoe? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: We'll list him as the recipient of the credit ap -- application. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Could I make another amendment to you or suggestion? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Sure. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: That we get a credit report on Mr. Zook because we don't have a credit report on him. The only two that we can consider is Mr. Zook's and Golden at this point. COMMISSIONER KELLER: That was in the last packet, I think. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I believe it was but, yes, okay. That's fine. Mr. Zook also then. COMMISSIONER KELLER: But you might add that in there. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, three separate credit reports presented to Mr. Bartoe. MR. ZOOK: Well, they're not entitled to it because I only have 25 percent of the business and my credit report was in there when I did my -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Wait a minute. Do you have -- you're going to -- MR. NEALE: Your ownership has nothing to do with whether you have to put in a credit report or not. MR. ZOOK: I'm sorry? MR. NEALE: Your ownership in the business has nothing to do with whether you have to put in a credit report or not. MR. ZOOK: It states right there and-- Page 42 ....~'^."__._'M.._.· ..._ -~.".___"_;_~.,""_."' October 19,2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Step -- step up to the mike. MR. ZOOK: -- 20, 25 percent. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Whoa. MR. ZOOK: I don't care. I mean, I can do this if that's what you want, but by your own -- it's five and six. MR. NEALE: Well, but there's an error in there, so that-- because the ordinance is the controlling document. MR. ZOOK: And it says the same thing here. MR. NEALE: Then that -- that needs to be changed on the application. There's an error in the application. MR. TRETTIS: Fine. We'll -- we'll do that also. MR. ZOOK: Yeah. That's fine. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: As long as that's -- MR. ZOOK: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Now, we have a motion. I'm going to ask you to state it again because we've had two people make amendments to it because I want it clear. And once that is done, does the temporary license revert to a permanent? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. Again, the motion is to approve this second entity under a temporary basis for a six-month period providing that Mr. Zook brings the credit report on himself, also on the current Golden Plumbing company and the new entity, which would be Donahue Plumbing, within a six-month period, brought to staff or Mr. Tom Bartoe, and as long as everything is up to date and everything is satisfactory in Mr. Bartoe's eyes and staffs eyes, that the license will be approved and it will become an active full license and not a temporary license or a restricted license. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I'll second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion. No discussion. Call for the vote. All those in favor? Page 43 ~.~,~..._~-~--,-"-,- October 19, 2005 COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BESWICK: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? Unanimous. MR. ZOOK: Thank you. MR. TRETTIS: Thank you very, very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You're welcome. MR. BARTOE: Question. Is that three credit reports -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Three reports, yes. MR. BARTOE: -- both companies and Mr. Zook? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. MR. TRETTIS: I got you. Thank you. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: You're welcome. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Moving right along, unless someone is shoots an arrow at me, public hearings, Case Number 2005-02, Gilbert Andreetti. I wanted to say Andreetti. Andreetti versus Exiquio Lopez d/b/a Exiquio Lopez, Incorporated. Are those -- everyone present? MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Say your -- MR. LOPEZ: Exiquio. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Exiquio. If you will come up here to this front podium, please? And you'll just stay put. I need to have you sworn in. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: State your name again. Page 44 '~'^»""''''-~--''~.~->''''''''-~-''--'----~'-~'-'.'''--'- October 19, 2005 MR. LOPEZ: Exiquio Lopez. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Exiquio Lopez. MR. LOPEZ: That's right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Bartoe. Let me explain to you -- is your English okay? MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. Yes, I speak English. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. The way this works, the county, Mr. Bartoe, I assume -- MR. BARTOE: No. Mr. Kennette. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Kennette will present the case for the county. MR. KENNETTE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Here's the way it will work. He'll make an opening comment. I always hate this part, Mr. Neale. Do I have to do it? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opening comments? Okay. Because it never stops there. Opening comment, just a brief overview of the case, then you can respond. MR. LOPEZ: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay? MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: At that point, the county will present their case and call witnesses. You will have an opportunity to ask those witnesses questions once the county is finished. Do you understand? MR. LOPEZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. When their case is all finished, then you can present your evidence and you can call witnesses if you want. Page 45 October 19,2005 When you're finished, the county will have an opportunity probably -- and Mr. Zachary here is the County Attorney. He will also be involved. Mr. Neale is the attorney for the board. MR. LOPEZ: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, he won't be involved with this. Then once you've presented all of yours, the county will make a summary, you'll make a summary, we close the hearing. No more talking. MR. LOPEZ: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: What you get to do is listen to us decide the case. It's like you're listening to the jury room. MR. LOPEZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay? We will come up with one, are you guilty, and number two, if you are guilty, what the fine or the penalty would be. MR. LOPEZ: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you're not guilty, you're not guilty. MR. LOPEZ: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay? Got it? MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. Mr. Kennette, if you would come to the podium and I'll start with an opening statement with you, SIr. MR. KENNETTE: Yes. My name is Allen Kennette, licensing compliance officer for Collier County. This case involves a -- the homeowner, the petitioner, Mr. Gilbert Andreetti of 996 Bruce Court, Marco Island versing ( sic) -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: Was he sworn? (Allen Kennette was place under oath.) MR. KENNETTE: As I was saying, it involves the petitioner, Mr. Gilbert Andreetti versus Exiquio Lopez, doing business as Exiquio Lopez, Incorporated at 2332 55th Terrace Southwest, Number Page 46 '~~'_.'''-'-'''-''''~'.'''-------~'''-''-'-- October 19,2005 A Apartment, that Mr. Lopez was hired to do a -- repair a leak in a roof on the homeowner's home. He attempted to work on that roof for a payment of $2500, which was paid in full. The work was a little more than he expected and they had words, the homeowner and Mr. Lopez, and he never returned to finish the job. Enclosed in the packet were photos of how the roof was left, which I'd like to introduce the colored photos that I have here, if need to be -- if need to be shown to the board members. I can introduce these exhibits, E-4 through E-9. That Mr. Lopez was working out of the competency of his license as a roofer. His license is a carpenter only. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Your turn to make an opening statement. Just briefly. MR. LOPEZ: I was --like you said, I was going to replace-- repair a leak. There was two leaks. There was a small area. It was a tile roof. I was going to replace the wood, so -- and he said that the job was too big for me, I wasn't going to finish it. That was not it. It turned out the job, the whole roof needed to be replaced, so I told him -- I told the homeowner that we need -- he needs to do it under a roofing contractor, which is Killarney Contractor, which is Killarney Contracting, so that's why I stopped, didn't complete the job. It's not that I didn't go back and not finish it, it's there was a matter of ordering tile and just -- you know, I don't know what -- you know, I don't know what else to say, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. At this point-- MR. LOPEZ: -- as far as an opening statement. I mean, later on, I can explain myself further. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's good. Go ahead and present your case, Ken -- or AI. MR. KENNETTE: Okay. I'd like to introduce the homeowner, Page 47 October 19, 2005 Mr. Gilbert Andreetti, who had made the complaint against the contractor who was doing the work. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: At this point, it's probably -- it's more comfortable if I could ask you just to have a seat there in the front row. MR. LOPEZ: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And then if the homeowner would come to this podium here? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Just a question for the record. Do we need to introduce this -- these pictures and all this information that's evidence now? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, we do need to introduce the packet. We need to introduce the packet. We forgot to do that. Can I have a motion to introduce the packet, someone? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Second? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BESWICK: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The packet's in. The photos, we'll get to. MR. ZACHARY: That needs to be marked by the -- that needs to be marked by the clerk as County Exhibit A. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: County Exhibit A. I need for you to state your name and have you sworn in. MR. ANDREETTI: Gilbert Andreetti. Page 48 ""h'''>''''__'~''''_'''''''' October 19,2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does she need to mark these? MR. ZACHARY: I think we need to mark those as a Composite Exhibit A or B. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah, because the packet is A. MR. KENNETTE: Mr. Neale, do these colored photos need marked separately? MR. ZACHARY: No. We-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Stop. Stop. MR. ZACHARY: We'll do those as composite -- Composite B and mark all the photos. It makes it easier. MR. KENNETTE: They're in the packet. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. No more discussion, please. Stop all discussion. Okay. Let me regroup. Have we got him sworn in? MR. KENNETTE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Let's do that first. (Mr. Lopez was placed under oath.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. You want to introduce those photos? MR. KENNETTE: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Marked Exhibit B? B, through E-9 -- E-1 through E-9. MR. KENNETTE: They go with the noncolored photos. They start off on E-4. MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Kennette, can I ask you how many photographs do you have -- colored photographs do you have there? MR. KENNETTE: I have 21. MR. ZACHARY: In -- in your hand. MR. KENNETTE: Twenty-one. MR. ZACHARY: Twenty-one separate photographs. MR. KENNETTE: Separate photographs. MR. ZACHARY: Could you show those, please, to Mr. Page 49 .-.-...,.- -'~-""----"'~"- October 19, 2005 Andreetti who's standing at the podium? MR. ANDREETTI: I took them. MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Andreetti, you took those photographs? MR. ANDREETTI: Yeah. MR. ZACHARY: You looked at them and those represent the-- the house or the roof as at was left by -- MR. ANDREETTI: Still is. MR. ZACHARY: Mr. -- Mr. Lopez, when he was working on your roof. MR. ANDREETTI: Correct. MR. ZACHARY: Is that correct? Okay. At this point then, I would enter -- I'd like to enter those photographs into -- into evidence marked as Composite Exhibit B. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Composite. And these are additional photographs, more than what we have in the packet, isn't it? MR. KENNETTE: No, they're not. There's four per page. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, those are the same. MR. KENNETTE: Those are the -- exactly the same. They're marked on the front, E-4, E-5, E-6 that correspond with the photos that are -- that are not in color. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So, the -- the nine would-- MR. KENNETTE: The nine is the alone one. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: These are just the originals. Okay. Go ahead. Let's go ahead and have those. Mr. Neale, any reason to throw these up on the board or-- MR. NEALE: Only if the board wants to be able to review them that way. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'll just pass them down the row. Okay. I'll let you proceed as we look at these while you're talking. MR. ANDREETTI: You want me to explain the whole situation? Page 50 ...,.~""",-".._.~_.~_.~----...- October 19,2005 Okay. I had two leaks in my roof. I called several roofing contractors and I -- I just couldn't get anybody to do it. And, finally, I went to my insurance agent to pay something and he told me he had a gentleman, Mr. Lopez, that fixed a roof for him. So, I called him up. He came down and he looked. He saw the two leaks, okay, and he started to take -- after discussion, he started to take the tiles off of one side and said to me that I probably need a new roof, plus the roof is 25 years old. And as he was talking it off, I could see that they are flaking, which was fine. Okay. He proceeded over a couple of weeks to take off the tile, repair the leak, but then he said, why don't I do the rest of this side, a particular side in the picture, and he would charge me $2500 for that and add it to the total of doing the whole roof, okay, which was fine. I told him, let's look at tiles and stuff. We rode around the neighborhood in Pelican Bay to look at some roof tiles. He couldn't get those tiles. He led me to believe that he was working under his brother's license with Killarney Construction out of Orlando, which I could live with. I checked on it with the county here. There is a Killarney Construction company that has a license. I checked with my insurance agent who recommended him. He said he paid up all his moneys for his liability or whatever. So I was -- I was satisfied with that. He did the work. He left a mess both times. He never came back and cleaned it up. I cleaned it up both times. It's still on the side of my yard. When he did the -- the leak, the one leak, he didn't do the second one, he forgot to put my drier vent in, so I was living without a drier for two weeks. Finally, he came back. This started in June. And he came back Page 51 October 19, 2005 like July the 5th or 6th to reput the vent in and said he would be back the next week because I asked him for a contract. I wanted a contract for the entire roof. And he said, yes, I'll be back next week, blah, blah, blah. Okay. In the meantime, I went and ordered tiles. I found the tile place. I called all over the United States. I found a place up here called Integra. I ordered and paid for the tiles. I had told him that the tiles were going to be delivered in the middle of August. And they were in the process of being delivered until I got another roofer, okay, a National Roofing here. They stopped it. I was going to lose my money but he worked out a deal where they -- he would buy other tiles from them, so they took that money and applied it to the new tiles that I got. I called him on many occasions. I never got a response. Okay. This is well into August now. So, I decided to call his home phone. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me -- let me interject here for an minute. MR. ANDREETTI: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I'm going to be real cut and dry. You guys can attack me if you want. I don't care about the quality of this roof work. MR. ANDREETTI: I'm not -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't care about his failure not to respond. The one charge that's here is working without a roofing license. You've already stated that you've tried to find out if he had a license. I really need to address those subjects and I'll make it -- MR. ANDREETTI: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- I'll make a comment for the benefit of the board. I am a state certified roofing contractor. MR. ANDREETTI: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I've been in the business 30 years. Page 52 , --,._""..-.,....."._..,...~---._~_.- October 19,2005 I will state that this roof has been looking for at least three or four years. You probably knew it had leaks. That's immaterial because the charge as he's an unlicensed contractor. The reason no one would respond to you or come out, and you probably had several that did come out -- MR. ANDREETTI: Yes. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- is because everyone had told you you needed a new roof. I would have told you that just from the pictures, the very first picture I saw. MR. ANDREETTI: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This roof needed to be replaced five years ago. Again, irregardless, the charge is working without a roofing license. So, tell me if I get carried away here, Mr. Neale. You're my bodyguard. MR. NEALE: That's -- you've hit it right on the head, Mr. Dickson. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Mr. Kennette, I don't need to hear all this stuff. Let's issue the -- address the license issue and the license issue only. The photographs were nice to look at, but it's not the case. MR. KENNETTE: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay? COMMISSIONER KELLER: So, the question is was he doing a roof? Was he hired to do a roof without a license for roofer. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: No. Did he obviously do the roof without a license to do the work? MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Dickson, if I could ask Mr. Andreetti a couple of questions. Mr. Andreetti, did you -- MR. ANDREETTI: Uh-huh. Page 53 October 19,2005 MR. ZACHARY: Did you contract or did you hire Mr. Lopez to fix the leaks in your roof? MR. ANDREETTI: I asked him to do it, but he never gave me a contract till after the fact. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. So, you -- you -- you hired him to fix your roof. Is that -- MR. ANDREETTI: The leak. MR. ZACHARY: The leak. Okay. And, Mr. Lopez -- could you identify Mr. Lopez? Is he -- is he here today? MR. ANDREETTI: Right here. MR. ZACHARY: Okay. Let the record reflect that he's identified the -- the -- Mr. Lopez as the person that came out to fix the leaks in his roof. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So noted. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Could you tell-- I'm sorry. What is your name again? MR. KENNETTE: My name is Allen. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Allen? MR. KENNETTE: Yes. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Would you tell the board what licenses that you found that Mr. Lopez holds. MR. KENNETTE: Mr. Lopez holds a carpenter license. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Carpenter. MR. KENNETTE: Carpentry only. Yes. He's tried several times to get a plumb -- a roofing license and has not passed the exam. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Got you. Mr. Neale, could you give us a direction here as far as what does that carpentry license allow him to do? MR. NEALE: Yes, sir. A carpentry contractor means those who have the knowledge and skill to install any wood and metal products, including but not limited Page 54 October 19, 2005 to, rough framing, wood structural, wood and metal, nonstructural, trusses, sheathing, paneling, trim, metal framing and cabinetry, placement of fire saving and fire stopping material shall be permitted on wall, ceiling and floor penetrations created within the scope of the work allowed by this section. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, for the phrases for trusses, how do you break this down for trusses? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Trusses is not allowed. My license, which is state certified roofing, allows me to engage in carpentry to the limitation of incidental replacement of rotten decking. That doesn't mean decking a house. A few sheets when I'm doing are-roof. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If it involves trusses or it involves fascia I have to hire a licensed contractor and we're one of the few that do. But I do higher a licensed contractor to do that work. I cannot go below the sheathing or the fascia -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- or I mean the decking. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, can we safely assume this Mr. Lopez was not licensed to do the job he was hired for? Is that a yes or a no? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's a yes, no, cold hard no way could he be roofing. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Okay. Was there a permit pulled for this job? MR. KENNETTE: No, there wasn't. There was no permit pulled. On his card on E-ll, also advertised that he's a demolition and roofing on his business card that he passes out. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, he advertises as being a roofing person. Page 55 October 19, 2005 MR. KENNETTE: Yes. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Okay. And the -- the business that his family member owns that he was working under, is that at all valid? MR. KENNETTE: They know of him but he has never worked for that company at all. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So, he doesn't represent them. MR. KENNETTE: No, he doesn't. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Collier County. MR. KENNETTE: No, he doesn't. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything else for the county to present regarding the license? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. I just have one other -- just a clarification on my mind. If -- let's just state hypothetically I called this gentleman to come and I had a -- I had a broken truss in my -- on my home, would it be safe to say that I would have to first hire a roofing contractor to take off the roof, take off the sheathing, take off the plywood and then hirer a carpenter to come in and replace the truss that was broken in my roof? Two step -- two stages? MR. KENNETTE: Yes, it is. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Not two stages, which we do quite often, but a general contractor could do both because he would hire Les as a roofing contractor. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. But I could do this as a homeowner and be in GZ. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The homeowner could do it, but he'd have to have two trades. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Two different trades. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Just to clarify the fact that he was Page 56 October 19, 2005 not licensed. COMMISSIONER BLUM: My -- my question for the homeowner is, were you aware of these things? Were you aware of, A, you said you investigated and you were told he was working under another license. Did -- are you aware that he needs to pull a permit? MR. ANDREETTI: Yes. COMMISSIONER BLUM: You were -- but you knew a permit had not been pulled. MR. ANDREETTI: No, I didn't know that. COMMISSIONER BLUM: You didn't know it wasn't pulled. MR. ANDREETTI: No. I told him that I wanted a contract for the entire roof with permits and everything, which he never came around with. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, here's the problem and that's really not the issue either is the permit. MR. ANDREETTI: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We have a problem in the roofing industry because you don't have express permits for repairs, which other counties do. So, if I do a repair in roofing, I can't go down and pull a permit because there's no inspection; whereas, an air conditioning contractor, someone like that, has express permits that they can get, you know, like the little ones you -- you can buy ten of them at a time. We're at a disadvantage because I've tried to pull permits on repairs and this is not the issue of this case, but it's a problem the county's got to address. And they say, what's your inspection? There is no inspection. Then you can't pull a permit. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, you go and you repair a roof on several -- and you do a repair, maybe a major repair and then-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Gets this-- Page 57 October 19, 2005 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Well, you're done and it's just done. I mean -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. But minor repairs is where we have a problem. This is a minor repair. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything else? MR. KENNETTE: No. The only thing is on Marco Island, I checked there, and they are required to pull a permit for any type of leak in a valley, which it started out to be, was the first leak. Permits are required and they do go out. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: They go out and inspect the repair? MR. KENNETTE: That is what Bob Myer had -- Bob Myers had told me on Marco Island when I checked on the permit. COMMISSIONER BLUM: That's where I was going. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Good. MR. KENNETTE: They do require it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have any questions of the homeowner? MR. LOPEZ: Who? Me, sir? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes, sir. MR. LOPEZ: No, sir. Not the homeowner. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You have no more questions, you're free to sit down, sir. Do you have any more witnesses? MR. KENNETTE: No. He's the only one, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Lopez, would you come up? MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Present your case. I am going to tell you the same thing I did with the homeowner. I don't need to get in what you did or why you didn't do something. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. Page 58 October 19, 2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The issue at hand is do you have a roofing license? MR. LOPEZ: No, sir. I have a carpentry license, but I am -- the gentleman over there said that I am not part of Killarney Contracting, but I am registered under -- in Collier County under Killarney Contracting as a Power of Attorney as a signer, so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Spell that name. MR. LOPEZ: Killarney; K-i-l-l-a-r-n-e-y. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Then I -- MR. LOPEZ: Contractors, Incorporated is the name. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have a copy of the packet? MR. LOPEZ: Yes, I do. Actually, I have-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Would you turn to-- MR. LOPEZ: A copy of the packet? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: If you would turn to page ten? MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. This -- this page? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. Who's the name up there at the top? MR. LOPEZ: Wait a minute. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Exiquio Lopez, Incorporated? Is that what I see? MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Does that corporation have a roofing license? MR. LOPEZ: No. That was -- see, I was -- I didn't know, sir. I had -- that was for the -- the plywood that I -- the work I had done on there already for changing the decking. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. Let me ask you something. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This address -- this proposal addresses Page 59 October 19, 2005 roofing. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. LOPEZ: But I -- that just -- I stated everything that I had did. I wasn't aware -- like I -- when I went into the office to talk to these -- this gentleman and another gentleman, it says on there I could replace decking, so I didn't -- I wouldn't -- like -- like he explained earlier -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Turn the page. MR. LOPEZ: -- Mr. Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Turn the page. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did Guard have roofing on it? MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. But, like I said, I represent Killarney -- I do roofing -- represent Killarney Contracting. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That name is not on the card. MR. LOPEZ: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So-- MR. LOPEZ: That was brought to my attention, too. I had no idea, sir. I didn't -- I didn't know that that was -- that I -- that I shouldn't do that until-- until now, I guess. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you say you don't know that you shouldn't have done that. Let's go to your test scores, which is, I think, at the very back. What have you passed? You've passed a business and law test. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Correct? MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you tell me that you didn't know that you couldn't do that? I don't believe that. MR. LOPEZ: Do what? I'm sorry, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That you couldn't advertise and do Page 60 October 19, 2005 roofing under a carpentry license. MR. LOPEZ: But I was -- I don't do roofing under Exiquio Lopez, Incorporated. I -- I -- I do it under Killarney Contracting. I let the homeowner -- I did let the homeowner know that. I didn't in any way tell that Exiquio Lopez -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Your proposal and your business card say a completely different thing. MR. LOPEZ: I understand, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. LOPEZ: I understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And what's in writing and what's in print would take precedent over what you might tell me here today. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. I understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anything else, Allen? MR. KENNETTE: No. The only thing is I did contact, as I said before, Killarney Contractors and talked to the qualifier, George Monico, and he informed me that he has heard of Zeek but he has never been an employee or a representative of that company. He does have a cousin that works for him up in Orlando and that's all. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But in this case, it wouldn't have mattered anyway. MR. KENNETTE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because he contracted under his own name. MR. KENNETTE: Right. I just called that just to clarify because he kept saying he was working for Killarney and -- MR. LOPEZ: I -- I don't understand how I -- if I'm -- I don't understand what you -- what you're saying. In other words, you're saying I can't -- I don't know how I pull permits under Killarney Contracting when I do then if I have nothing to do with Killarney Page 61 October 19, 2005 Contracting. Can you explain that to me? MR. KENNETTE: Do you have any permits that you pulled for them? MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. If you look in the computer, you-- MR. KENNETTE: Do you have one for this job? MR. LOPEZ: No, I don't. I didn't know I needed a permit because it was a repair. Like I said, I wasn't aware in Collier County, like the gentleman said, I wasn't aware that I needed a repair. It initially started as a repair and then initially -- then 90 -- you know, as far as I go, when I started to get in there, there was no way for me to tie in. The 90 pounds kept breaking and breaking, so I had to take that complete section out for me to watertight -- I had no intention of taking that section out. When I -- once I figured out that he needed a new roof, I kept going and kept going and I kept trying to take the un limit -- you know, lap it on top -- underneath. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And there-- MR. LOPEZ: And I couldn't get it. I couldn't get it, so I had to take that whole section. I had no intention of doing that whole section period. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The point is-- MR. LOPEZ: I understand. I understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The point is you're doing roofing and you don't have a roofing license. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is that correct? MR. LOPEZ: I don't have a roofing license, no. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I mean, that's -- it's either yes, you do, or, no, you don't, and you don't. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other -- do you have any Page 62 October 19, 2005 witnesses or anything you want to present to refute that you would have a roofing license? MR. LOPEZ: No, but like I say, I -- no, I don't. No, I don't, sir. I wasn't -- no, I don't. No. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Do you have any evidence that you have pulled contracts for -- MR. LOPEZ: Yes, I have. Yes. Yes. Give me one second. COMMISSIONER KELLER: -- that company? Or that you're employed by them? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Mr. Bartoe, do you have any knowledge of him pulling permits under Killarney and doing work and having it done? MR. BARTOE: I have no knowledge of that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: See, Mr. Lopez, I again go back to E-14. You know that you needed a roofing license. You know that you were supposed to have a roofing license because you've sat for the roofing examination three times. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. But for-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: For-- MR. LOPEZ: For repair for a little -- I was only going to replace a little section of the wood at the bottom of the valley and that's -- that's what I was going to do. And then when I came to that I knew how to -- he had to do a complete roof, I told the homeowner that I can't go on any further and you need to do a contract with Killarney Contractors. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. The -- the point he's trying to get to is that whether or not you went up there to replace the roof or whether or not you were going to do a repair -- MR. LOPEZ: Right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- you still do not have a license to do that. MR. LOPEZ: Right. But it says in -- okay. I understand. But it Page 63 October 19,2005 says in my -- my thing I could have replaced decking. I didn't know -- it wasn't a complete roof. It was just a small area. I didn't -- I wasn't aware of it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me read your proposal to you. Removal of entire valley section on the rear of the house. MR. LOPEZ: That -- that was after the work that I had done. That's -- I had stated that proposed -- that was after the fact though, everything that I had done. That wasn't -- I didn't give that to him before the work. I gave that to him after work, so what that was -- what that -- that's like a -- I guess you would sayan invoice whereas stating the work that I had did, not stating the work that I was going to do. That was written after I had done everything. That wasn't a proposal. That was something I -- I wrote up after I had done the work. So, I was just putting in there, stating what I had done to let -- you know. You understand what I'm saying? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, I do. But I-- MR. LOPEZ: To explain the work that was done, not -- not the work that was going to be done. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But I also see a date of 6/21/05 and you cashed the check on 7/5, July 5. But it doesn't matter. MR. LOPEZ: I don't understand what-- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It's pretty clear cut that you have represented yourself as a roofing contractor or a contractor that was going to repair a roof. And the point is that you did it without the correct licensing. MR. LOPEZ: I even states on his receipt. He knows I was going to be under Killarney Contracting because it even states on his receipt that he bought the tile, Killarney Contractors. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: That's hearsay, sir. That's something that you said she said. We're not interested in that. MR. LOPEZ: That's not hearsay. It's in the packet. Page 64 October 19, 2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The packet says -- yeah. MR. LOPEZ: It says Killarney Contracting. If you look on the receipt that he ordered the tile, it says Killarney Contracting on it. I wasn't going -- you know, I wasn't planning on doing the roof under Exiquio Lopez, Incorporated at all, period. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything else? MR. KENNETTE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do you have anything else to present, Mr. Lopez? MR. LOPEZ: No. Just the fact that he's telling me I have nothing to do with Killarney Contracting and I do. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Really, does it matter? MR. LOPEZ: I'm sorry? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It really doesn't matter. MR. LOPEZ: Okay. I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Closing statement. MR. KENNETTE: To do a closing statement, we -- the county's recommendations are full restitution to Mr. Andreetti of the $2500 for the roof that was never completed, six months probation with $1,000 fine will be waived if he pays it off within two months, have him go for retesting on the business and law, and send the filings to the State of Florida. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Restitution with $1,000 fine that will be waived when? MR. KENNETTE: In two months when he pays the homeowner. If he pays the homeowner in two months, we'll waive that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And retesting of the business and law. MR. KENNETTE: Retesting of the business and law and six months probation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Mr. Lopez -- MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- closing statement, please. Page 65 October 19, 2005 MR. LOPEZ: I really have nothing else to say. I mean, I stated much what -- what I had to say, I guess. There's nothing more to add. Nothing else matters. I mean, like you said, I mean, nothing else I can say. Everything else is pretty much on the table now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, and it seems like you're a nice guy and you work hard, but we just had to get through all of this to get right to the issue -- MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- did you have a license. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And you can't present one, so -- MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. No, I can't. No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That's the problem. MR. LOPEZ: Under my name, no. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. And that's-- MR. LOPEZ: But I am a representative of a roofing contractor's license. I understand. I understand. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you did the work under your name. MR. LOPEZ: I -- I was charging the wood. That was the wood. I wasn't charging any -- it's hard to, you know. You understand what I'm saying? It's -- I wasn't trying to do nothing wrong. I was just -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No more statements? Okay. Do I hear a motion to close the public hearing? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So moved. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BESWICK: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. Page 66 -.......--,., .. .."".~.,..¡,¡.,.. October 19,2005 COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Just as a -- you can have a seat. What we're going to do is deliberate first. First of all on the charge, not the penalty. Once we determine if the charge -- if there is a violation, then we'll go to the penalty phase and Mr. Neale always has comments and directions for you. MR. NEALE: Right. Just a brief summary of what -- what's going to go on is that the board shall ascertain in its deliberations on this matter that fundamental fairness and due process have been afforded to the respondent. However, pursuant to Section 22-202G5 of the Collier County ordinance, the formal rules of evidence as set out Florida Statutes shall not apply to these type matters. The board shall consider solely evidence presented at the hearing and the consideration of this matter. The board shall exclude from its deliberations irrelevant, immaterial and cumulative testimony. It shall admit and consider all other evidence of a type commonly relied upon by a reasonably prudent person in the conduct of their affairs. This, sir, is whether or not the evidence so admitted would be admissible in a court of law or equity. The hearsay may be used to explain or supplement any other evidence in this matter; however, hearsay by itself is not sufficient to support a finding in this or in other case unless it would be admissible over objection in civil court. The standard of proof in this type of case wherein the respondent may lose his privileges to practice his profession is that the evidence presented by the complainant must prove the complainant's case in a Page 67 October 19, 2005 clear and convincing manner. This burden of proof on the complainant is a larger burden than the preponderance of the evidence standard set for regular civil cases. The standard established for sanctions other those -- than those affecting the license is that of a preponderance of the evidence. The standard in evidence are to be weighed solely as to the charge set out in the complaint as Ordinance 90-105, Section 4.1.2 of the Collier County Code of Ordinances, that is contracting to do any work outside the scope of his or her competency as listed on his or her competency card as defined in this ordinance. In order to support a finding that the respondent is in violation of the ordinance, the board must find facts to show the violations were actually committed by the respondent. The facts must show to a clear and convincing standard the legal conclusion that the respondent was in violation of the relevant sections of 90-105 as amended. The charges as set out before are the only ones that the board may decide upon as these are the only ones to which the respondent has had the opportunity to prepare a defense. Damages, should they be found, should the respondent be found in violation, must be those directly related to these charges and may not be for matters unrelated. The decision made by this board shall be stated orally at this hearing and is effective upon being read by the board. The respondent, if found in violation, has certain appeal rights to this board, the courts and the State Construction Industry Licensing Board as set out in the ordinance and in Florida Statutes and rules. If the board is unable to issue a decision immediately following the hearing because of questions of law or other matters of such a nature that a decision may not be made at this hearing, the board may withhold its decision until a subsequent meeting. The board shall vote upon the evidence presented on all areas and Page 68 October 19,2005 if finds the respondent in violation, adopt the administrative complaint as submitted. The board shall also make findings of fact and conclusions of law in support of the charges set out in the administrative complaint. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you, sir. Okay. Open to discussion. COMMISSIONER KELLER: I guess the thing that -- that really struck me is when you said that you can look at this roof and see that it needed to be replaced five years ago. And, so, if -- if you are a representative of another company that does roofing and you thought you were going to go in to do carpentry work, that you would immediately realize that this is not something you could do and you would tell the homeowner right away. And, so, when I try and look at, as you know, the situation where you got into something and it ended up being more than what you thought, I think that given what you've told us your background is, that I can't really give that a whole lot of weight. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anybody else? Bill? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: No. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It's pretty much a -- pretty much a done case. I mean, as far as what I can see. I don't think they disagree with it or not, but I mean it's pretty obvious that he has basically admitted that he -- he did the roof and it is out of the scope of the work of his license that he holds. And I clarified it with you as far as what you can and can't do with a roofing license and broke it down to the truss factor even in my own home, so there's no doubt that this gentleman was in -- acting outside of this -- of his contracting ability. Whether or not he works for another company or not is irrelevant because there's no testimony or there's no evidence here to prove that. So, I don't see of any -- too much more further conversation it's Page 69 October 19,2005 going to take before we make a decision. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. I give him a lot of credit. He's hard working, tried to help the homeowner out. It kind of backfired on him. He used quality materials in his repairs. I can see from the photographs. This peal and stick membrane is top notch, I mean. But, like you say, he got just got -- it needed replacement. Noone could repair this roof, but that's irregardless. He doesn't have a roofing license. He wants a roofing license because he sat for it two or three times. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And he's a smart enough man to get a roofing license. He just needs to go take it again. And be careful not to bite off more than you can chew. But it's open and shut. He doesn't have the license to do the work. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussion, I'll accept-- entertain a motion. I'm waiting to see. If no one does one, then I have one. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Go ahead. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I move that Mr. Lopez be found in violation of contracting to do any work outside the scope of his competency as listed on the competency card as defined in this ordinance and, specifically, doing roofing work without a roofing license. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I'll second the motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? All those in favor? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BESWICK: Aye. Page 70 October 19,2005 COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Aye. Opposed? Need to read this little bit. Board of Collier County Commissioners, Collier County, Florida is the petitioner versus Exiquio Lopez, d/b/a Exiquio Lopez, Inc., Case Number 2005-02. The License Number is 25403. This cause came before -- a public hearing before the Contract Licensing Board on October 19th, 2005 for consideration of the administrative complaint filed against Exiquio Lopez. Service of the complaint was made by certified mail, Mr. Bartoe, personal delivery? Personal delivery in accord -- MR. BAR TOE: Personal. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Personal delivery in accordance with Collier County Ordinance 90-105 as amended. The board having period testimony under oath received evidence and heard arguments respective to all appropriate matters, thereupon issues its findings of fact, conclusion of law, order of the board that Exiquio Lopez is the holder of record of Certificate of Competency Number 25403. The Board of the Collier County Commissioners is the complainant in this matter, that the board has jurisdiction of the person of the respondent and that Exiquio Lopez -- forgive me if I'm -- that's a difficult word to pronounce -- was present at the hearings and was not represented by counsel. All notices required by Collier County Ordinance 90-105 as amended have been properly issued. Page 71 October 19,2005 The allegations of fact as set forth in the administrative complaint are approved, adopted and incorporated herein by reference of finding of fact, specifically that Count Number I, 4.1.2, contracting to do any work outside of the scope of his or her competency as listed on his or her competency card as defined in this ordinance. Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: Yes. As the respondent's been found in violation of the ordinance, the board shall consider and order sanctions under the following parameters as set out in Collier County Ordinance 90-105 as amended. These sanctions are set out in the codified ordinance at 22-203 and they include one revocation of it's certificate and some -- Certificate of Competency, two, suspension of the Certificate of Competency, three, denial of issuance or renewal of a Certificate of Competency, four, probation of a reasonable length not to exceed two years, during which the contractor's contracting activities shall be under the supervision of the contracting -- contractor's licensing board and/or participation in a duly accredited program or continuing education. Probation may be revoked for cause by the board at a hearing noticed to consider said purpose. Number five, a restitution, six, a fine not to exceed $5,000 per incident, and as I noted last time, that has been amended by statute, but not amended in our ordinance yet to $10,000. And, Number 7, a public reprimand, Number 8, a re-examination requirement, Number 9, denial of the issuance of permits or requiring issuance of permits with conditions and, ten, reasonable legal and investigation -- investigative costs. In the imposition of these sanctions, the Contractor Licensing Board shall consider the gravity of the violation, the impact of the violation on the homeowner, any actions taken by the violator to correct the violation, previous violations committed by the violator Page 72 October 19, 2005 and any other evidence presented at the hearing by the parties relevant as to the sanction it is appropriate for the case given the nature. The board shall also issue a recommended penalty for the State Construction Industry Licensing Board. The penalty may include a recommendation for no further action, that's the state level, or a recommendation of suspension, revocation or restriction of the registration or a fine to be levied by the State Construction Industry Licensing Board. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Put it up to the board for discussion. COMMISSIONER BLUM: As usual, my recommendation is that we follow the recommendations of staff since they're more intimately involved in homeowner and the participation and how everybody is working towards whatever it is. I -- I would follow staffs recommendation. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I think I would be just a little bit more less lenient than that only because of the severity of the -- of the actual charge. If it came here -- if he came in here and did not know totally or honestly that he could not do roofing with his carpentry license, then I would probably be more lenient as far as staffs recommendations, but I think he clear cut knew he couldn't do roofs. He did anyway. It's on his business card. So, this business card is probably floating all over Collier County by now, so I'm sure this one particular case is not going to stop him from doing more roofs ifhe chooses to. I would probably be a little bit more severe on the -- on the -- on the fine part of it and probably on a probation for his license that he holds right now. COMMISSIONER BLUM: The one -- the one part that we didn't say much about that really troubles me is the homeowner talking to an insurance person who recommended this gentleman. Wow! Page 73 ~,-~..~",-_.__._,...,."-""- October 19, 2005 COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: What insurance company? That's my question. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. The insurance company and the agent and how many other people are doing it so that the -- maybe the insurance guy gets what? Mr. Chairman? MR. ANDREETTI: I can answer that question. MR. NEALE: You have to step up to the mike. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You have to come up to the mike. And I can just barely do this one quick comment. MR. NEALE: Well, if it's relevant to the sanctions, the board can hear it. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. ANDREETTI: I teach and coach in Collier County. I've been doing it for 35 years. THE COURT REPORT: State your name, please. MR. ANDREETTI: Gil Andreetti. And the insurance man is one of my former players and he's had my insurance for like ten years and he just happened to throw the name at me because he did some work for him. That's how I got it. I mean, he wasn't -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: Roofing work? MR. ANDREETTI: Yes. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Uh-huh. As a friend and a former mentor to this man, I think you better advise him of a few facts. MR. ANDREETTI: I haven't said anything to him at all. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I think you need to. MR. ANDREETTI: I think I will. COMMISSIONER BLUM: As a pal. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me -- thank you very much. Let me throw things into perspective. I know what homeowners are dealing with. Our backlog right now is 14 months. Tile -- he Page 74 '~'''6''''__-''''''';''.'''O_..·;.·_'^ October 19, 2005 needs a new roof. Tile is backlogged six months to a year. Really realistically, it will be a year before he gets tile. So, a lot of the homeowners get desperate because most companies don't keep repair crews like we do. So, we get homeowners that are desperate and then it opens it up to people that are somewhat competent but not licensed. A roofing company would hire you in a heartbeat, but the other thing I see here on the penalty phase is I see about three days worth of work. I don't know how much plywood was replaced, but there was some, and he's fully capable of doing that. And I see what basically boils down to a large temporary repair that would have cost 2500 or something, so if we give restitution to the homeowner, I -- I'm not in favor of anything more than that, because he has benefited from the work that's been done and probably knew -- I'm not going to -- but probably knew that no one would repair it because it couldn't be repaired. Not that culpability has anything to do with this, it doesn't, but I think that the homeowner, if he gets $2500 back has already gained while he waits on a new roof from a licensed contractor. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Okay. I agree with you there. I'm just wondering then what's to deter this man from going out and doing this again? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Well, that was my question for county. I was thinking that second or third offense was a felony. Mr. Neale, is this not correct? MR. NEALE: Contracting without a license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Is it second or third offense? MR. NEALE: I believe it's third. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Well, we ask Mr. Bartoe, is there anything -- anything previous with Mr. Lopez? MR. BAR TOE: None known to me. Page 75 October 19, 2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah, because there was a roofing contractor -- or there was an individual doing roofing in Charlotte County without a roofing license and he was just sentenced to a one year in the state penitentiary and three years probation. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Wow. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You did hear that, didn't you, Mr. Lopez? MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. There's six roofing contractors are going to jail in the last four months. MR. LOPEZ: This is about -- like I said-- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No, no, no. Okay. MR. LOPEZ: I'm sorry. MR. NEALE: It is the second violation that makes it a felony in the third degree. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: A second violation is the felony. MR. NEALE: This -- now, that is -- okay. And that's without-- without a license, but he could be deemed to not have a license to be a roofer because he does not have a license to be a roofer. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, second go around can go felony. That should be enough deterrent. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Plus, there's a huge incentive for him to go and take this test. I mean, there's all this business out there and -- you know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Especially if we get hit by Wilma. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: You don't think we're going to test that case. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Well, we'll have jobs. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So, where does the board want to go? COMMISSIONER BLUM: I'm going to repeat in the more form Page 76 October 19, 2005 of motion staffs recommendation. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can you state it for me? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Restitution to the homeowner, $2500, a fine of $1,000, which will be waived if he pays the homeowner back within two months, six months probation for his license. MR. NEALE: I believe they also recommended that he retake the business and law test. COMMISSIONER BLUM: And retake the business and law practice as that's going to show proof to staffs satisfaction that he passed it. We can allow him -- what would you suggest a length of time to do that? MR. KENNETTE: Staff recommends two months. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Okay. So, in the same period of time. So, two months from this date to show proof that he has taken the business and law and passed it, that the homeowner has signed off and shown that he's been repaid, six months probation on his license and the thousand dollars will not have to be paid at that point. That will be in my -- COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I have one other question for you in the motion. What if the -- Mr. Lopez decides that he's going to go and take a roofing license test or to complete what he hasn't -- what he's been trying to do all along to get the roofing license. Business allow a portion to be a part of that also, so they would both apply then? COMMISSIONER BLUM: Sure. Sure, I'd -- I'd love to think he's going to do that. That would be great. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: It would be good incentive for him. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: So, let me understand the motion. He's already passed business and law. Ifhe takes the roofing, that Page 77 October 19, 2005 would suffice your motion for a business and law retake? COMMISSIONER BLUM: It would for me. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because he doesn't have to take business and law if he goes for the roofing. COMMISSIONER BLUM: He doesn't have to? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He's already passed it. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Well, staff has asked for it. I think we've got to follow staffs guidelines unless staff wants to say it's okay. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Well, maybe a clarification on the why the recommendation for the retake of the business and law test? MR. KENNETTE: Okay. Staff recommends if he retakes the roofing, our recommendation was for the business and law so that he was aware of what he can do and what he can't do, because we were in the office like two hours trying to explain to it to him and he still did not understand that. He wanted to come in front of the board. COMMISSIONER KELLER: All right. He needs to take it then. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: So, then, yeah. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Get both done. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yeah. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Okay. Then the motion stands as made. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Do I hear a second? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Second, Joslin. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Discussion? You guys are quiet on the ends today. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: I'll speak up now. Mr. Dickson, I'm -- I'm more in agreement with you. I see benefits to the owner here, and restitution to the owner, I'm not sure Page 78 October 19, 2005 it's warranted either, because he has received benefit from it. And, guaranteed, Mr. Lopez has got time and material and efforts put forth. I definitely think that the homeowner needs to -- to receive something back because the entire job was not completed and left in a -- in a state of disarray. But I do believe we need to -- to impose a fine to Mr. Lopez because he knows that he needs a license for roofing. He has stated clearly that he's been a permit puller on Killarney license out of Orlando, who is a roofer so, therefore, he knows he needs a roofing license. He wrote the contract himself under his d/b/a of -- as Exiquio -- or, excuse me -- Exiquio Lopez, Incorporated instead of Killarney. Had he wrote it under Killarney, none of this would have been in front of us today, my feelings. So, therefore, you know, he knows he did wrong, so I think he needs to be imposed on a fine and I'm not sure that full restitution to the owner would be in -- in -- in this point acceptable to me. I do think we also need to put probation and give him the licensing or testing requirements. If he does not get a -- a roofing license within the next six months, I would think that he would have to take the business and law over again. So, I wouldn't be able to support this motion. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussion? COMMISSIONER KELLER: Well, what would you propose for the restitution and the fines? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: I think restitution at this point, since the homeowner did gain -- gain on this and there was outlay from -- from both parties, I would think an amiable split of twelve fifty restitution. And I'm thinking $1,000 fine because we do have investigative costs involved and we haven't discussed that, so if we have $1,000 fine, that will help cover some of the investigative costs. I'm not sure Page 79 October 19, 2005 that we want to put it that statement anyway. But I do think probation for one year, and if he does receive a -- a roofing license, then that -- that probation can be waived at that time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Personally, I really like that because this case should not have been before this board. It's open and cut. He didn't have a license. He knew he should have had a license. I don't really think he was authorized to pull permits. He probably picked up permits. But even so, he made the contracts out on his own. So, I like the thousand dollar fine and the split on the restitution, but we got a motion on the floor. Any more discussion? COMMISSIONER BLUM: I'll be -- I'll be happy to rescind that motion in favor of -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Can I do that? COMMISSIONER BLUM: -- what Mr. Bill-- Wilson (sic) has. MR. NEALE: If the movant and the second agree or both agree to withdraw the motion, then the motion would be withdrawn. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I'll rescind the second also. I like the idea better. COMMISSIONER BLUM: So do I. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Uh-huh. Me, too. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I'm almost inclined to say that the fine for the contractor would be a little more increased, but I'll go along with Mr -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. So, the motion on the floor is off. Bill, do you want to make a new motion? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Sure. In -- in light of the -- the first motion being rescinded, I hereby make a motion that we find that the -- Mr. Lopez to pay restitution of $1250 to the homeowner, that he would pay a fine to the -- to the Page 80 ;-<~,"'^"'<"""_'''''''~oo.'''''''''''''''"'~ October 19, 2005 county for -- in the amount of $1,000, that he be put on probation for one year, and that would be waived at the point in time between now and the year that if -- if in fact he does receive a certified or a registered roofing license. If not, he will remain on probation for the one year. And I think that's about all we got there. MR. NEALE: Retesting. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Oh, and -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: Business and law. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Ifhe does not receive a roofing license within the one-year probation period, that he needs to take the business and law exam again and pass it. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I can second that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Discussion? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Just thinking. Is that clear enough if he doesn't pass it, do we need to put something in there for that? COMMISSIONER KELLER: I thought we were going to ask him to take business and law anyway because he didn't seem to understand the laws and the test that he had originally passed. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Well, he will be if he takes -- he either takes the roofing license, which will get him the business and law or if he takes just business and law. MR. NEALE: Well, the issue is you're giving him a year to take either exam. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Either exam. MR. NEALE: And the previous motion was 60 days to take the business and law. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Right. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Give him a year to pass it, one or the other. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: In the mean time, he's on probation. COMMISSIONER BLUM: We really hope like heck to do the Page 81 October 19, 2005 roofing one. COMMISSIONER KELLER: The other thing that -- MR. LOPEZ: I signed for it. COMMISSIONER KELLER: The other thing that staff had recommended was that you increase his fine if he doesn't get the restitution, so I don't know if you want to do it or not. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Yeah. I -- I-- COMMISSIONER BLUM: The homeowner now has redress if he doesn't get paid. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: That becomes a civil matter. COMMISSIONER BLUM: That's right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussion? Have a motion and a second. All those in favor? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BESWICK: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Opposed? Unanimous. Need to read this, conclusions of law, on the charge. The vote was eight in favor and zero opposed. Now, order of the board based on the foregoing findings of fact and conclusions of law pursuant to the authority granted in Chapter 40 Florida Statutes, and Collier County Ordinance Number 901-105 just amended by a vote of eight in favor and zero opposed. It is hereby ordered that the following disciplinary sanctions and related order are hereby imposed upon the holder of contractor Certificate of Competency, Number 254031. Page 82 October 19, 2005 Restitution to the homeowner in the amount of $1 ,250. Time frame on that or was that in the motion? MR. NEALE: It wasn't. Probably should be. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yes. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: It was not. Do I need to amend that? MR. NEALE: Amend the motion, take a revote on it just -- COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, if I may amend that motion that the restitution be paid within two months. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I need a second. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All those in favor? COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Aye. COMMISSIONER BESWICK: Aye. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Aye. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Aye. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Aye. COMMISSIONER HORN: Aye. COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. All that I said before, item number one, restitution to the homeowner in the amount of $1,250 to be repaid within 60 days from today's date, $1,000 fine, which will not be waived for investigative services, one year probation on his carpentry license, which will be removed if he takes the business and law, and passes it, exam or he takes the roofing contractor's exam and passes it. And that's it. Mr. Lopez, will you come back up? MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We could have been much worse to you. I think this -- this board was lenient to you. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. Page 83 October 19, 2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It's a decision that no one's going to be happy with, even the homeowner is not happy. MR. LOPEZ: I'm fine with the decision so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And usually when nobody's happy, it's probably a better decision all around. MR. LOPEZ: Right. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But you've got to stop this because you're obviously working under -- doing other roofing. MR. LOPEZ: Just to let you know, sir, I do -- I -- you say I'm not eligible to pull permits, I know, but I am, so if you want, you can check later. I have the paper right here telling me that I am. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. Stop. All that work needs to be contracted under a licensed contractor now. MR. LOPEZ: Right. I understand. I made the mistake of putting my name instead of his name, but I did it because of the woodwork I did, but I guess I got to pay, so it's no big -- I mean, I learned -- I learned a lesson so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I -- I think you would be a smart man to go get -- MR. LOPEZ: I'm registered. Matter of fact, I registered two weeks ago to take it again. I just haven't had time to go take it so -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: There's -- there's the need for good roofing contractors in this area. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. I know. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Take the time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go get it now. MR. LOPEZ: I understand but sometimes you don't have like-- you know, I'm here right now, so sometimes you don't have time. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Go -- go do a prep course. MR. LOPEZ: Right. Yeah, I know. I'm -- I already got into -- I got that information because the last couple of times I just -- I missed it barely, so -- but I know. Page 84 October 19, 2005 CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Fine. What you will do is if you pass those tests -- MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- or when you pass them, you need to go see either Mr. Kennette or Mr. Bartoe-- MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- and show them proof of that. That will remove the probation on your carpentry license. MR. LOPEZ: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Because here's what happened at the end of a year if you haven't taken either one of those tests and passed them. This case is coming back before us. MR. LOPEZ: No, sir. That's not going to happen. I'm already rescheduled. You don't have to worry about that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: It will come back-- COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah. Get some -- get some new business cards. MR. LOPEZ: Thank you. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Take the roofing off. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Yes, take the roofing off, please-- MR. LOPEZ: All right. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- until you pass the test or put it in a comer someplace. MR. LOPEZ: Okay. I'll do that. COMMISSIONER BLUM: How valuable this guy will be with both those licenses in his pocket. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Best of luck to you Mr. Andreetti. I apologize to you, too. It's not the decision you wanted, but at the same time I'm very much in debted to the fact that you took time to come here. What happens to us all the time in the field is we're all contractors except for three people that are up here that are consumers. Page 85 October 19, 2005 We hear about this stuff all the time and I'm always going, why don't they go to the licensing board? Now, the licensing board will handle 99 percent of all cases without them coming to this board. This should have never come here. But I appreciate the fact that you did what you did because now if this happens the second time, he's facing a felony prison time. So, it does clean up the area. So, again, thank you very much. That's it. MR. NEALE: That's it. MR. LOPEZ: Thanks. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Thank you. Next issue on the agenda was one that we postponed? MR. LOPEZ: Excuse me, sir. Do I -- am I going to get something or do I need to go see somebody to get paperwork? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: No. There will be an order that will be typed out in three or four days and I will sign it and that will be either delivered to you or sent to you. MR. LOPEZ: It will explain everything -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Everything. MR. LOPEZ: Okay. Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: The next item was under discussion and it's regarding subcontractors specialty license. Mr. Bartoe, did you want to run that? MR. BAR TOE: Not really. Mr. Joslin just gave that to me and thought that it should maybe be brought up for the board members to look at. He -- I think he received it in the mail. Is that correct? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Actually, no. I buy materials from suppliers and in this -- in the offices, naturally, on the desk they propped this paper, which is a -- the actual paper completely is called Page 86 October 19, 2005 the Florida Pooled Spa. What this is, is a combination of a lot of all pool contracting companies, whether it be service, whether it be contractors, but everything in the pool industry. This was at one time, years ago, called the NSPI, which is National Spa and Pool Institute organization. It's kind of a broken down portion now because of the problems but they printed this paper and they get involved in revising the codes with different sections of the Florida Building Codes. And in the reading of this magazine one day, I happened to pick it up and not being involved in it any longer, it kind of came to be a shock to me where they have asked the Contractor Licensing Board out of Tallahassee to start looking at the fact of having specialty contractor licenses for the swimming pool trades. And the -- I had Tom make some copies of this, which gave kind of a pictorial and a description of each type of the trade they were going to tried to have the specialty contractor licenses provide. I -- I -- I myself as a pool contractor don't have a problem with the -- with the specialty licenses. I think it's going to be very hard to regulate, but on the same token, I'm not real fond of the way they've got it broken down here as far as how one is going to receive that license. And this is what I wanted kind of the people on the board to take a look at and maybe even staff or maybe possibly even the -- or letting Mr. Neale get involved and find out what this is -- what this is involving and the changes are going to be made before this does go before the CILB now when they approve it. I think it could be defined a little bit clearer and I think the fact that one of the requirements or one of the actual requirements is going to allow this person to have a license is that the swimming pool contractor is going to be able to give a practical exam to an employee or -- or a person of the field and then he will be the -- the governing Page 87 October 19,2005 factor on whether he gets the license or not. And I totally disagree with this. I mean, this is like giving a loaded gun to a child. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Yeah. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: If you work for a -- if I work for a pool company and he's my friend, I could fail the test and the guy could say, well, I need you out in the field, so, here, I'll give you a license anyway. That totally is not going to fly with me. So, that's why I want -- this is the main reason why I brought it here because I wanted to get someone involved besides myself that -- maybe try to find out what is going with this. MR. BARTO E: Well, just from my reading at it, I get the impression it's a way for pool contractors to avoid having to carry Workers' Comp insurance. Just make everybody a subcontractor. MR. NEALE: Exactly. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Yeah. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Well, that's -- that's basically the reason. I can see that's -- that's absolutely right. In -- in a -- in a sense, I think the pool contractor and the swimming pool trade has been abused in this situation because I -- I know they consider us, and as far as a commercial contractor, I'm considered as a general contractor in the swimming pool trade, but yet I can't act as a full general contractor because I can't hire subcontractors, whereas a general contractor in the trades, he can go and hire licensed tile people, licensed plumbers, licensed electricians and licensed people as subcontractors and he doesn't have to pay the Workmen's Comp either. So, in a sense I kind of go along with, you know, this -- the trade lines as far as doing this, but I think it's broken down, first of all, a little too much. There's too many licenses. And then the way it's going to be governed, I think, is -- is -- needs to be reviewed and Page 88 October 19,2005 changed, you know, drastically before we open up a big can of worms. MR. NEALE: And to me it just, from a practical point of view and from an enforcement point of view, it's just going to be incredibly confusing whether a pool main -- a swimming pool contractor decides to use subcontractors or decides to use employees, and then you go out, you know, from an enforcement point of view, they go out on a job and the guy says, well, I'm an employee. Well, then he has to go back and figure out whether he's an employee. No, I'm a subcontractor. Well, then, he has to show his license. I mean -- but I think for our enforcement staff, it would be just a complete nightmare trying to figure out whether everybody standing around a pool job is either a subcontractor an employee and trying to get proof of the two, I mean, our -- our staff could end up spending all of their time doing nothing but figuring out swimming pool jobs. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Exactly. And it would be very difficult, like you said, to monitor. I mean, it would be almost impossible. Might as well just forget about licenses for pools because I know myself, just being in the business, I know there are a lot of people that do a lot of these different licensed categories, so you're going to have people now that are doing things maybe outside of their license that they're licensed to do. And it's going to open up, I know, a real mess. MR. NEALE: And a lot of them from my view fall -- are subsets of other specialty licensing categories or general licensing categories. I mean, you know, the swimming pool layout contractor's specialty license sounds an awful lot like a -- a rebar steel contractor, that the structural contractor's specialty license sounds like it's under a concrete forming and shaping license. You know, it's -- I would think a lot of other contractor segments would have something to say about it, too. MR. BAR TOE: Yes. We already have excavation which can do Page 89 October 19, 2005 that on a pool. MR. NEALE: Yeah. We've already got an excavation contractor license, we've got -- MR. BARTOE: Tile and coping. MR. NEALE: Tile and coping contract -- you know, it's a very-- MR. BARTOE: The state swimming pool decking, that's concrete form, place and finish. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I can mention something. This has been going on for years. They're just now addressing swimming pool, although I heard about this three years ago. This is part of the Jim Walter act, Jim Walter being the one who throws up those -- I can't say anything, I'm on camera -- but he throws up all those modular homes. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Affordable housing. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: His -- his approved -- his desire is to get every single trade under this category broken down to where he can issue the license as in-house after he does the testing. We faced it in the roofing industry. It's been faced in the plumbing industry. And I'm sorry, but if you try to get the general contractors to get on your side, they won't support you because the general contractors would love to have this as much as Jim Walter would. What our association has done is we have band together with air conditioning, electrical and plumbing, and we all have to get together. What your swimming pool association is going to have to get together with all of the other sub-trades to go against them because when you go against the Home Builders Association, and you think you got masses, when the home builder shows up, you feel like an ant to an elephant, because you guys have more clout than anybody. But that's what this is, is Jim Walter. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Right. Well, again, it's not because I'm a -- I'm not totally against the fact of having subcontractors in my Page 90 October 19, 2005 trade but -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: You better be. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: -- I think that it needs to be refined a little bit -- a little bit more refinement. And, unfortunately, I'm reading this and it says at the top of the page, it says, now that CILB has approved the subcontractor specialty licenses, public comment on the administrative process will begin, meaning that this has already gone before CILB apparently. They have approved the fact of doing this. Now, how it's broken down, I don't know for sure. I am sitting on this board. I'm allowed to get involved in this and -- COMMISSIONER KELLER: Who is CILB? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Contractor -- it's a licensing board. MR. NEALE: The state construction -- it's the state version of this board. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Just like we are except it's the state. MR. BARTOE: I have a question for Mr. Zachary and Mr. Neale. If this does get final approval, these seven categories for state specialty licenses for pools, do we, Collier County, have to adopt the same thing or not? MR. NEALE: I want to research it, but it certainly would -- would seem as such, that either that or they'd all just have to be state licensed contractors and it would remove enforcement ability from Collier County contractor licensing except for the exceptions made by the state contractors. MR. BAR TOE: Right. MR. ZACHARY: Well, I think the question becomes, and it says in this handout that we got from Mr. Joslin, that below are seven categories for state specialty licenses for pools, spa, or something or other. So, apparently the -- these -- these subcontractor specialty Page 91 ,._~~."._,."-'--.;,.__..."_.*,,.,,,. October 19,2005 licenses are going to be state licenses from what I see here. MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. MR. ZACHARY: So, I don't necessarily know whether we would have to adopt that in our ordinance to have those subspecialties under our ordinance, but apparently -- and I guess the question becomes if they're licensed by the state, can they do business as the subcontractors in Collier County? Then I think probably the answer is yes if it's a state license. MR. BARTOE: I know -- you know, going along similar to this, low voltage is only a state license. If you want to do low voltage work here in the county, go get a state license. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Any other discussion? COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: I have one other item while we're here. I have a gentleman sitting in the audience that has approached me and he's another pool contractor. And, basically, it's questions regarding the licensing of code enforcement officers that are going and are their job out in the field. I have asked him to come here today, if he chose to, just so that it could be clarified as far as what their job is and how they do it and what happens when a particular, let's say, person or contracting firm or an unlicensed contractor is out there programming work. When he's caught, what's the steps of procedures that are taken by the code enforcement officers to basically start the process rolling or what has to be done? As far as any of the cases or anything that may be coming up, as far as what has happened which, because it puts me on this also, but as of if right now, I don't really know what -- what is -- what is going on with that part of it, so that's why I asked him to come and at least have it spelled out if he chose to, so that staff and Mr. Neale can, you know, can guide him as far as what's being done. He's a little concerned about how it's being done out the field. Page 92 '''._"~'".._,.....'''~",- ,_.. )......... ."_""-- October 19, 2005 MR. RYAN: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Time out. Just a minute. (A recess was had.) CHAIRMAN DICKSON: State your name and occ -- do I need that? I don't need him sworn in, do I? It's not testimony. MR. NEALE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Just state your name, sir. MR. RYAN: My name is Gerald Ryan. I'm a state certified commercial pool contractor here in Collier County for -- well, since December of 1987. And the reason that I'm here is to -- I really would like to request that a full investigation of the extenuating circumstances surrounding a recent criminal operating a business called In Line Aluminum need performed. And my reasons for wanting that done is I contracted with In Line Aluminum and gave him some deposits for several screen enclosures. Shortly thereafter, I foolishly contracted with him without doing the proper background check, and as you know, it's pretty difficult to find a screen enclosure company right now. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Let me -- let me just make a comment before you go any further. I need for you to be aware that we are televised. MR. RYAN: I know that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: And this is recorded. MR. RYAN: I know that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. MR. RYAN: When I began to sense that there was a problem with this contractor, I started doing a little bit of investigating on my own, got the names of some of the victims, called them up. And I discovered that several hundred thousand dollars had been taken from the public in the name of -- you know, in the form of deposits for work to be performed. Page 93 October 19, 2005 And some of that work was actually contracted out of the scope of the license. There was a lot of work that was performed without permits being pulled and, you know, I was pretty alarmed about that and I thought, well, you know, it's -- it's -- not only have I lost a considerable sum of money, I have some pretty egregious clients myself now and they're pretty unhappy with me and I may well, you know, may well be sued by a couple of them. But in my endeavor to discover how many other people had -- had the same thing happen to them, I started calling the licensing department and specifically Mike Ossorio. And, of course, I was making regular calls to the In Line Aluminum organization. I found out that In Line Aluminum had been -- and, specifically, Raymond Parsons, who's now in jail as you mayor may not know for portraying himself as a Hurricane Katrina victim. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Mr. Chairman, may I? Is this -- how appropriate is this for us to being hearing a one-sided conversation of condemnation, as accurate it as it may be? CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I don't know. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I'm troubled by this a lot. MR. RYAN: I'm not interested in condemning anyone. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Mr. Neale -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: All right. Just get to -- get to the -- COMMISSIONER BLUM: -- is this in our purview? MR. NEALE: You know, I -- I have trouble with it myself because I don't know -- MR. BAR TOE: I think I know where he's going and it's under investigation and there's one investigator handling it instead of four handling different complaints from all over the county. And probably next month there may be a couple of cases, the first of many maybe, before you. COMMISSIONER BLUM: My point being, we're getting very, Page 94 October 19, 2005 very one-sided, accurate or not, as it may be, and if we have to hear this at some point, we're now tainted. I've got a huge problem with this. MR. NEALE: Yeah. I -- I agree with that, because if this case does subsequently come in front of the board -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I wish you had told me this right off the bat that it's under investigation. MR. BAR TOE: Yes. It's under investigation. Mike Ossorio, who's investigating, advised me this morning that he will be scheduling a couple of cases to go before you in November unless they get resolved in the meantime. The -- the one person who would be the respondent now has an attorney and attempting to work out these first couple cases that will be scheduled to go before you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Right. MR. BAR TOE: If they do, they won't be coming before you, but there's more to schedule before you, so it could be a long drawn out process. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Then what I have to do and, Mr. Neale, this is where you step in, he could jeopardize and make appeal because of the fact we're sitting here and listening to this. MR. NEALE: So, he could -- if the board continues to hear any further testimony from this gentleman, even though it's not under oath, even though it's just hearsay at this point, it still certainly would have to be disclosed at any future hearing and the board -- you know, an appeal could be heard because of nonsworn testimony being given without the opportunity for the respondent to present their side of the case. So, I would -- I would strongly recommend that the board, being that this is a -- about a specific potential complaint, that the board not hear any further testimony on this matter. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Because the testimony would be Page 95 -""~.._..' ......_-.-._~........,,-,-, ......"' ".-', ..--- ._.,,~--- October 19, 2005 appropriate in the case of -- in a case that were to be held. MR. NEALE: It -- it may be. You know, it-- MR. RYAN: I understand. COMMISSIONER KELLER: Under oath. COMMISSIONER LEWIS: Do you have a question for the board? MR. RYAN: As I said before, my only purpose for being here is to request that the board consider a full investigation of the extenuating circumstances -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. I'm going to stop you right here. It's under investigation. You have to stop -- MR. RYAN: Okay. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: -- right now. That's all there is to it. It's under investigation, several investigations. All you're doing -- if you say one more word, all you're doing is jeopardizing those investigations, which they could appeal and overturn rulings of this board if we hear any more. See, we didn't know it was under investigation until he said it was. It's over. Cut off. Right, Mr. Neale? MR. NEALE: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Thank you. MR. RYAN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Anything else? MR. RYAN: Thank you. MR. NEALE: I -- I would like to bring up one thing and Mr. Zachary and I are going to be talking about this subsequently, is I got a call from one of the county attorneys who works with the -- the code enforcement board and -- CHAIRMAN DICKSON: This doesn't involve that. MR. NEALE: No. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: When I say, we're finished, we're Page 96 October 19,2005 finished. MR. NEALE: There's -- there's been some discussion that was's brought up in front of the County Commission as well as to their being more interaction between code enforcement activities and the contractor licensing activities, and so we're going to have some discussions on that. Apparently was directed by the County Commission to look into this and so there's going to be some discussions held on that. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Why? Why? MR. NEALE: Because of some -- frankly, because of some pulled publicity and some matters with contractor problems, and so forth, and so the County Commission is now -- it's gotten their attention and so there's been a request to look at how the two boards can work together. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. Anybody else have anything? COMMISSIONER KELLER: I just wanted an update I'm been having with the screen. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Yeah. COMMISSIONER KELLER: The guy from last -- last month, the man who didn't show up for the hearing or -- MR. NEALE: As far as I know of, there's not been a word heard from him. COMMISSIONER KELLER: $10,000 fine. MR. NEALE: This is Johnston. MR. BAR TOE: Nothing. Nothing. COMMISSIONER BLUM: He's been served and notified? MR. BAR TOE: Themail has been sent out. I don't believe office staff has the card back yet. COMMISSIONER BLUM: I -- I really expected to see him here COMMISSIONER KELLER: Me, too. COMMISSIONER BLUM: -- discussing and -- I mean, we gave Page 97 ~_~__"·'''_'~'_~_'_M'' October 19, 2005 him that last ditch out. MR. NEALE: Now, I'd like to make one note to the board that there is a specific provision in the ordinance if he does not pay his fine. And the provision in the ordinance is that he -- if -- they have an obligation to pay a penalty to the county imposed with finality under this article for any violation of this article and the individual has not paid that penalty in full by the applicable deadline, on -- the Collier County Building Department should not issue any permit to that individual. So, he automatically losses his permit-pulling privileges. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: He wasn't pulling permits. MR. NEALE: Which he wasn't pulling them anyhow but, you know, now we're making sure he doesn't, you know. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: But, also, the county can do a bench warrant or file a lien, can't they? MR. NEALE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER KELLER: And it was 20 days under our last meeting where he had 20 days to respond to appeal. MR. NEALE: Okay. He has not filed his appeal. COMMISSIONER BLUM: Well, we don't know when the-- when did the notice go out? It had to be from the time of the notice. COMMISSIONER KELLER: So, ifhe comes back in the next meeting, he has a revoked -- MR. NEALE: And the notice went out because I -- I got the order to the -- to staff within a couple of days afterward. I'm sure Mr. Dickson signed it right away. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: I signed it and it was sent out certified mail. But if you remember, we didn't -- we weren't able to get service on him a lot of other times also or he refused to sign. So, we'll Page 98 October 19, 2005 probably get the letter back with an unable to deliver, which is good enough, as you well know. Anything else? Motion to adjourn. COMMISSIONER KELLER: We did-- COMMISSIONER BLUM: So moved. COMMISSIONER JOSLIN: Second. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: Did you have something to ask? COMMISSIONER KELLER: I was just looking to see when he had -- how much time he had to pay the fine. CHAIRMAN DICKSON: We're adjourned. ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 11 :27 a.m.) COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTING LICENSING BOARD LES DICKSON, CHAIRMAN. Page 99