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CLB Minutes 08/17/2005 R August 17, 2005 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MEETING OF THE CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD Naples, Florida August 17,2005 LET IT BE REMEMBERED, that the Contractor Licensing Board in and for the County of Collier, having conducted business herein, met on this date at 9:00 a.m. in REGULAR SESSION in Building "F" of the Government Complex, East Naples, Florida, with the following members present: CHAIRMAN: Les Dickson (Not present) David Beswick Sid Blum Michael Boyd (N ot present) Lee Horn Richard Joslin (Acting Chairman) Anne Keller William Lewis ALSO PRESENT: Patrick Neale, Attorney for the Board Michael Ossorio, Licensing Compliance Officer Page 1 AGENDA COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTORS' LICENSING BOARD DATE: August 17,2005 TIME: 9:00 A.M. W. HARMON TURNER BUILDING (ADMINISTRATION BUILDING) COURTHOUSE COMPLEX ANY PERSON WHO DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION OF THIS BOARD WILL NEED A RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS PERTAINING THERETO, AND THEREFORE MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, WHICH RECORD INCLUDES THAT TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE BASED. I. ROLL CALL II. ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: DATE: July 20,2005 V. DISCUSSION: Reciprocity on grade scores with Broward County. VI. NEW BUSINESS: Michael E. Zook - Request to qualify a 2nd entity. Brian Morse - Review of credit report to reinstate his tile & marble license. Larry W. Sideri - Review of credit report for a Master Plumber license.. Jesse Sowanick - Request to be granted a county Tile & Marble license based on his New Mexico Residential contractors license. VII. OLD BUSINESS: VIII PUBLIC HEARINGS: IX. REPORTS: X. NEXT MEETING DATE: Wednesday, September 21,2005 August 17, 2005 ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Call to order the meeting of the Collier County Contracting Licensing Board, August 17th. Any person who decides to appeal a decision of this board will need a record of the proceedings pertaining thereto and, therefore, may need to ensure that a verbatim record of the proceedings is made, which record includes that testimony and evidence upon which the appeal is to be based. I'd like to start with roll call to my right. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Lewis. MR. BESWICK: David Beswick. MR. BLUM: Syd Blum. MS. KELLER: Ann Keller. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Richard Joslin. MR. HORN: Lee Horn. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: I'd like to start with the additions or -- any additions or deletions. MR. OSSORIO: For the record, Michael Ossorio, Collier County Contractor Licensing. There is no deletions or additions, so we're ready to proceed. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Upon that, I'd like to have approval of the agenda. Everyone has read it, I assume. I need a motion to approve the agenda. MR. BLUM: So moved, Blum. MR. BESWICK: Second, Beswick. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: All in favor, say aye. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BESWICK: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Aye. All against? Page 2 --_.,~-- August 17, 2005 (No response.) ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: We need approval of the minutes for the July 20th, 2005 meeting. MR. BESWICK: There are a couple of corrections. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Okay. MR. BESWICK: Cover page says we're the Code Enforcement Board. And on the second page, it has my first name wrong. It's David, not Mike. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Caught that one, huh? I need an approval to approve the agenda as amended. MR. BLUM: So moved, Blum. MR. LEWIS: Seconded, Lewis. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: All in favor? MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BESWICK: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Aye. Any nays? (N 0 response.) ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: So moved. Moving along. We have a discussion of reciprocity of the grades with Broward County in electrical contracting. What's the pleasure of the board? Does everyone have this in their pamphlet? It appears that the Broward County central examining for electricians met and they considered providing reciprocity to electricians into our county. By looking at it, I would say probably this is something that I don't really think needs a whole lot of discussion. Their testing requirements are probably just as severe as ours, and their grade averages are 75 and greater. Page 3 August 17, 2005 MS. KELLER: Do they take business and law as well? MR. JOSLIN: I'm quite certain that they do, but don't quote me on that. Electrical board is pretty -- they're pretty adept in what they do. I mean, they pretty well test everything that they just about do. Now, unless Broward has some other -- MR. BLUM: Electric is one of the toughest ones out there. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Yeah. MS. KELLER: I guess I'd just like a little more information about exactly what they test for and how that compares to how we test before I would make a decision. There isn't really enough information here about that. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: For the record, Michael Ossorio. I agree with you, the March 23rd letter, if they really want us to do reciprocity, I think they should have more -- something in detail. This letter is ambiguous, at best. I think that we'll give them a call and we'll get a breakdown of do they require a master electrician or do they require a journeyman license first, how many years and what their requirements are. Testing's one thing, but make sure we're on the same page, as of the ordinance of2.7, examinations and the approval of exams. MS. KELLER: I'd also like to know if they waive this for people or, you know, how frequently they do that. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: If they waive the testing requirements, you mean? MS. KELLER: Yeah. MR. OSSORIO: I think they're still filling out reciprocity. They still have to fill the application out. I think that's one of the things that -- no exam will be taken. But the credit report, and I think that everything else should falls into play. MR. NEALE: Yeah, should still require a full application. But I would concur with what the board's suggesting, that Page 4 August 17, 2005 certainly you should get what their full requirements are for licensure before you move forward on this. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Right. In that case, then I think we'll put it back to staff and see if staff will get a hold of Broward and, you know, at least put some information together for us so maybe we can have some kind of decision for this at the next meeting. MR. OSSORIO: Correct. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: So I should -- do I need a motion to table this? MR. LEWIS: So moved, Lewis. MR. BLUM: Second, Blum. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: All in favor? MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BESWICK: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Aye. First item of new business is Mr. Michael E. Zook. Would you please -- are you here? MR. ZOOK: Yes, sir. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Would you please come forward and be sworn in, please. (Speaker was duly sworn.) ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Mr. Zook, you are applying for -- would you please give us a little bit of an insight on what you're -- MR. ZOOK: It's a secondary qualification for a plumbing business. My primary actually is planning on taking his exam here the next couple of months, and this is the second qualifier. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: What company do you license now? Page 5 August 17, 2005 MR. ZOOK: Golden Plumbing. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: How long have you owned that business? MR. ZOOK: I don't own it, I'm just a qualifier. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Qualifying the business. MR. ZOOK: It's either three or four years, that range. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Are you involved in the company now, other than -- MR. ZOOK: Yes. I go out and do supervision. I actually go out and work on some of the jobs. MR. BLUM: So how do you get paid? Do you get a percentage or salary or -- MR. ZOOK: Well, when I work, I take and get -- I get an hourly rate for the work that I do. MR. BLUM: So if you don't work, you don't get any money? What do you get paid as a qualifier? MR. ZOOK: Not at this point, no. I've not received any compensation for being the qualifier for the business. MR. BLUM: And the new one, what's going to happen with the new one? MR. ZOOK: Well, I'm going to receive a working percentage of that business. MR. BLUM: Is that on here? I didn't see it. MR. BESWICK: Me neither. I was looking myself. MR. BLUM: But what would the percentage be on the new business? MR. ZOOK: It's less than 10 percent. MR. BLUM: Less than? MR. ZOOK: Less than 10, right. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe doesn't he has (sic) to be at least 10 percent of ownership in a corporation to qualify? Page 6 August 17, 2005 MR. ZOOK: Correct. Well, you can be an officer but not necessarily a director. Director of stockholders. MR.OSSORIO: You have to show 10 percent ownership only when you exempt yourself from the company. MR. NEALE: Right. MR. OSSORIO: If he carries work on himself, then he doesn't need the workers' comp insurance or the exemption. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Any other questions from the board? (N 0 response.) MR. HORN: Does staff have any ongoing complaints against this license holder? MR. OSSORIO: Not at this time. MR. BLUM: Do we have any standards for credit scores that we look for, Mr. Chairman? MR. NEALE: There's no specific standard on credit scores. It just is pursuant to the Florida Administrative Code, which is adopted in our ordinance, which is that he has to show financial responsibility that would not endanger the public, basically is the standard. MR. BLUM: I'm looking at this Donahue and Ms. Baron and I see serious delinquencies. MR. ZOOK: Baron? MR. BLUM: Baron, excuse me. MR. ZOOK: Oh, that's the maiden name. MR. BLUM: Excuse me? MR. ZOOK: That's her maiden name, Baron, I think. But that was from some years back. MR. BLUM: Okay. This is not a recent report? MR. ZOOK: Well, it's recent, sure, but I think it's ongoing. I think if you look in back, you'll find the more current. And she can't be too off the bat, because she just got a mortgage approval for a condo, so -- and they had a lot of things that they had Page 7 August 17, 2005 paid up. I'm like you, I don't know how to read those things either, so -- MR. BLUM: Well, I'm not an expert, but I've read a few in my time. I guess I'll be the first one to say what I think. These scores don't look all that terrific to me. I'm uncomfortable with this gentleman not having more of an ownership stake and responsibility in this new corporation. I have some reservation. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: I have to agree. There's a lot of derogatory items in here. And again, not being part of the actual company or the corporation yourself, you're putting yourself in a real chance to maybe lose your license. MR. ZOO K: But I'm going to have a working relationship, gentlemen and ladies. MR. BLUM: It's not on the application. MS. KELLER: It says none. Under what percentage of ownership do you have under the present business that you're applying. MR. ZOOK: I'll look. That could be a typo, too. MS. KELLER: And what percentage ownership will you have in the business you're attempting to qualify and it says none. MR. ZOOK: Because we -- I had talked about a five percent and then I get income from the business on a weekly basis. MR. BLUM: Maybe you can clarify this, Mr. Chairman, for this gentleman? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Well, I don't think clarification needs to be done. I just don't think the gentleman has got enough initiative inside this business for us to warrant granting another business. MR. ZOOK: I'm sorry? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: I say I don't really think that you have enough input into the first business for us to grant you a Page 8 August 17, 2005 second business. Getting paid by the week or by the job, as someone as a license holder in my opinion is not a correct way to run a business. Now, that's just an opinion. And then with the derogatory items that we have in the actual owner's name, I'm a little -- JUDGE TRETTIS: Excuse me, I'm representing -- MR. OSSORIO: Sir, point of order, we need you sworn in. JUDGE TRETTIS: Yeah. I'm an attorney. Attorney Tom Trettis, Judge Trettis. Yes, I swear to tell the truth. This is very new to me. What are you basing your opinion, Mr. Joslin? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Basing it on the credit report that we have for the Donahue -- JUDGE TRETTIS: Is there an ordinance or is there a law that you're basing it on? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: No, not the ordinance, actually, but what it is, it's up to the pleasure of the board, if we look at a license holder who is licensing now who is qualifying the company, and that company has already derogatory items on their credit report, then we would have a little bit of reserve the right to -- JUDGE TRETTIS: I'm sorry, derogatory items on which? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: On the credit report for Baron. JUDGE TRETTIS: For the proposed? For the proposed company? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Yeah. And the old company. JUDGE TRETTIS : Well, those are personal items. Are there some standards -- Pat, are there some standards? MR. NEALE: Yes. If I can just point out to Judge Trettis and the board, the standard is pursuant to Rule 61.G4-15.006 of the Florida Administrative Code, which is incorporated by reference in the Collier County ordinance. And that's the respons -- financial responsibility grounds for denial. Page 9 August 17, 2005 And the grounds on which the board shall refuse to qualify an applicant include the existence within the past five years preceding the application, unsatisfied court judgment rendered against the applicant, which would be Mr. Zook, based upon the failure of the applicant to pay its just obligations to parties with whom the applicant conducted business as a contractor, an unfavorable credit report or history, as indicated by any of the documents submitted, a determination by the board that the applicant lacks the financial stability necessary to ensure compliance with the standards set forth. As guidelines for the determination of financial stability, the board shall consider the applicant's responses to the questions in the application and the financial-- applicant's financial statements submitted pursuant to this rule. So-- JUDGE TRETTIS: Excuse me, is there -- MR. ZOOK: No, there's no judgments against -- JUDGE TRETTIS: There's no judgment against Mr. Zook. He's been in the business for years. He is a licensed plumber. MS. KELLER: Do we have a credit report for you, Mr. Zook? MR. ZOOK: Probably from three years ago or more. MS. KELLER: Okay, well, we need a more recent one for your application. MR. ZOOK: I wasn't required to submit one because of my ownership. MS. KELLER: Well, see, that's where we run into-- MR. ZOOK: That's the way it's written in the application. MS. KELLER: Our problem. JUDGE TRETTIS: It's written that way in the application. MR. BLUM: Here's the thing. The two ladies are both well below 600. The two ladies past history -- MR. ZOOK: The two ladies are one in the same. MR. BLUM: Oh, okay. JUDGE TRETTIS: Yeah, he said that her maiden name was Page 10 August 17, 2005 Baron. MR. BLUM: I show two different names with two different scores for two different situations, so excuse me. MR. ZOOK: But I think there's a date problem. If you look at the dates, like I say, they just qualified and bought a condo. MR. BLUM: I understand. But that's really a -- you can get condos and you can get property and it's-- JUDGE TRETTIS: Well, what bothers me, though, Syd, is it would appear that the standards you're relying on, just well, it doesn't look good to me, well, it's sort of an emotional type response or judgment. And I think what Mr. Zook is saying, if the woman can go to a federally insured bank or mortgage company and get a mortgage, that's -- MR. BESWICK: But the whole thing is, the county wants us to look at these things and make a judgment on them. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: That's correct. JUDGE TRETTIS: On what standards? She's proven that she has -- MS. KELLER: Well, first of all -- ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: -- a good credit rating; otherwise, she never would have gotten this big mortgage. MS. KELLER: There are requirements for ownership, for qualifying a company. And he basically takes financial responsibility for that company when we allow him to qualify the company. So without his financial statements and having a shaky ownership in the other one, we feel uncomfortable. JUDGE TRETTIS: Shaky ownership? MR. NEALE: I think -- JUDGE TRETTIS: It's a thriving business. MR. NEALE: The issue that I would propose to the board -- and I see is an issue with the application -- is pursuant to the ordinance, the credit report that's required for the qualification is -- and I'll read Page 11 August 17, 2005 directly from the ordinance. If the business organization has been in existence for more than one year, it's a credit report on the business. That is, it would be a credit report or Donahue Plumbing, the second entity he's seeking to qualify. Since it has not been in existence for more than one year, then a credit report on every business organization in which the applicant or qualifier was an agent is required, which they did submit a credit report for Golden Plumbing. And if neither of the above is applicable, a personal credit report on the applicant or qualifier is required. Looking at the -- this, there really -- I don't want to say anything about staff, but there really is no purpose in Ms. Donahue's credit report being in here. Because Ms. Donahue is not the qualifier, nor is she applying to qualify the business. If the business has been in business for less than one year, the only applicable credit report that should be evaluated is that of Mr. Zook's. MR. ZOO K: Yeah. Of course I'm not required to have one, based on the application. MR. NEALE: Yeah, theoretically because he has submitted the credit report for the business organization in which he is currently qualifying, that is, Golden Plumbing. MR. BLUM: But he doesn't have any part of it. MR. NEALE: Well, he's still the qualifier. MR. ZOOK: It doesn't matter if I own part of the business or not. MR. NEALE: The requirement is that he is legally-- MR. ZOOK: Bound. MR. NEALE: -- bound as the qualifier to act for the business. And at times in the past the board has reviewed applications where, you know, the qualifier was a qualifier for U.S. Homes, for example. Well, you wouldn't look at the qualifier's application if he's qualifying U.S. Homes. MR. BLUM: Right. MR. NEALE: So the application has, for lack of a better term, Page 12 August 17, 2005 extraneous information that is not really relevant to the application, which is Ms. Donahue/Baron's credit report. The only credit report that really applies pursuant to the ordinance is the credit report on Golden Plumbing, his previous -- which I believe is in there. MR. ZOOK: Yeah, it's in there. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Yeah, the credit report that we have in front of us that I've tooken (sic) a look at here real quick is not the greatest either, according to Experian. Which if the board would care to look at the bottom section of it, the historical payment guide. Also the payment trend indication, which a notation was made that the payments are increasingly late. MS. KELLER: Seventy-two days later than invoice. MR. NEALE: Yeah, that's-- ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: And it's saying they're increasingly late, which means they're going -- MR. ZOOK: Is this under Baron or is it under Don Donahue? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: This is under Golden Plumbing. MR. ZOOK: Golden Plumbing? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Yes. MR. ZOOK: I -- you have me at a disadvantage, because I haven't seen that. Could I get a copy of that so I can take a look at it? MR. LEWIS: You didn't put this in the application? MR. ZOOK: No, it was faxed directly in to Maggie. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: We'd be more than happy to forward -- MR. BLUM: Business is paying on average 72 days later than invoice due date and prediction for '05 is that it'd be 68 days late, so -- ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Also, the business also has another credit letter that says he has a good-standing cash account, which means there are no account -- there is no credit there at all. MR. ZOOK: That's the new business, not Golden Plumbing. It's Page 13 August 17, 2005 cash accounts, they've just been opened. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: I'm sorry, Donahue Plumbing, you're correct. That is right. Golden Plumbing is the one I'm really looking at, though. MR. BLUM: Payment trend indication: Payments are increasingly late. MS. KELLER: Can you just tell us again what the purpose of setting up the other company is? MR. ZOOK: I'm sorry? MS. KELLER: What is the purpose of setting up the other company, and what is the magnitude of these companies? How many employees are in Golden Plumbing and how many are expected -- MR. ZOOK: Well, there's only one employee in Golden Plumbing. And Donahue Plumbing is going to be a service entity, just like Golden Plumbing is. And basically a one or two-man operation. MR. BLUM: So you're going to be the qualifier, but you're going to do a certain amount of service yourself? MR. ZOOK: Oh, yeah, yeah. I do service with Golden now. MR. BLUM: Patricia is going to be the secretary and she's going to like run the -- MR. ZOOK: She's the owner and she is a female entity and a minority . MR. BLUM: But she's not going to work in the business? MR. ZOOK: Well, she'll be running the business, yeah. MR. BLUM: Then no other employees besides you and her? MR. ZOOK: Well, no, her husband will be doing service also. JUDGE TRETTIS: And he's licensed, right? MR. ZOOK: He has the Rotor Rooter county license. MR. BLUM: And then Golden, who owns Golden? MR. ZOOK: Tim Burkett and his wife, Ramona. MR. BLUM: They're the only two people involved -- MR. ZOOK: Right. Page 14 August 17, 2005 MR. BLUM: -- in it besides you, who is the qualifier? MR. ZOOK: Right. MR. BLUM: Tim is going to get his own license, is that it? MR. ZOOK: Right. MR. BLUM: So you'll effectively be out of a job, so you're looking at -- MR. ZOOK: Yes, exactly. They don't do any heating and air conditioning, so I don't understand that. JUDGE TRETTIS: If I could testify outside my role as an attorney and Marine Corps buddy here. I've used Mr. Zook for many years, and Tim Burkett, too. And he supervises him. I use him for many jobs in my home and recommend him to friends. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Any other comments from the board? MR. LEWIS: Yeah-- JUDGE TRETTIS: Excuse me. If I could make one more remark, Richard? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Sure. JUDGE TRETTIS: If it please the board, if the fact that some payments are late, I would instruct Mr. Zook to get that taken care of. If that's going to put his license or this work in jeopardy, I would just say -- if that's one of the standards we use here, that they can never be late in paying some of the bills, then I think that to admonish him and to set out a warning in effect to get these payments faster I think would do the trick. Thank you very much. MR. BLUM: Well, he's not going to be involved in Golden anymore, so that will be kind of academic. MR. ZOOK: Yeah, after he gets his license. MR. BLUM: The barn's burnt down now. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Vice-chairman, I think the first thing we need to do in consideration -- and if Randy can help me along here Page 15 August 17, 2005 according to the ordinances in effect, I think Mr. Zook needs to reapply for the application with his proper credit application on himself, and there needs to be a statement of financial responsibility for the new company, Donahue Plumbing. And financial responsible officer either needs to be him or someone who is financially responsible, and we also need credit reports on him before -- JUDGE TRETTIS: Excuse me, William, but I don't think -- the application I don't think requires that. MR. LEWIS: It does, sir. Randy, can you help -- MR. BLUM: Mr. Neale just spelled it out. MR. LEWIS: -- under financial responsibility? MR. NEALE: Well, it does. There is -- and under Collier County law, there is no provision for a financially responsible officer. And Mr. Zook has submitted the appropriate resolution of authorization that he will be legally empowered to enact for Donahue Plumbing in all matters connected with his contracting business. So that is in there. And he also states that he has full authority and that he is accountable for all activities involving his license. There's a signed and notarized affidavit in to both of those issues. So he has accepted financial responsibility pursuant to the application in here. And he is -- and Mr. Treddis is correct that he is not required by our ordinance to submit a credit application. MR. LEWIS: A credit application on a new company is not required? MR. ZOOK: Not from the qualifier with less than 10 percent of ownership. MS. KELLER: But I think what he's saying is that your chance of qualifying the company would be better if you were to submit your own financial information, because the previous company is not in great standing with its creditors, paying late. Page 16 August 17, 2005 MR. NEALE: The credit report that the board has in front of it that it's required to consider for this matter is the one on Golden Plumbing. And the standards set out under the Florida rule is that -- and this is the standard that the board must judge this on -- is financial responsibility is the ability to safeguard the public will not sustain economic loss resulting from the contractor's inability to pay his lawful contractual obligations. So that's the standard the board has to judge this application on. JUDGE TRETTIS: If I may, the bills have been paid, the debts have been paid. Granted, some were paid late. I mean, he hasn't been sued. I mean, we haven't had any judgments against him. No judgments. MR. ZOOK: That's right. And all contractors get-- ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: That's good. MR. ZOOK: -- behind once in a while. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: That's good. JUDGE TRETTIS: Well, sure it's good. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: I mean, I understand, Mr. Treddis, your situation, and I can understand that he's a personal friend of yours. Just trust this, the board has to take a close look at everything that we try to do here. JUDGE TRETTIS: Well, I think-- ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: And again to protect the-- JUDGE TRETTIS: Well, we don't have a-- ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: -- companies in Collier County. After two years -- you've been in business since 2002; is that correct? MR. ZOOK: I'm not sure if it's 2002 or -- yeah, 2002 I guess it IS, yes. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: And this is 2005, and already we have some derogatory things against the Golden Plumbing. Not Page 1 7 August 17, 2005 saying -- MR. ZOOK: You have some late payments. This is not derogatory. There again, if you don't get paid from your people, it's difficult to pay the bills on -- none of you are contractors, you wouldn't understand, believe me. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: I understand that, Mr. Zook. MR. BLUM: We are all -- ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: We're all contractors. MS. KELLER: I'm not. JUDGE TRETTIS: Any plumbing contractors? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: I'm a swimming pool contractor. Have been a contractor in Collier County for 27 years, so I've been here a long time. So we are all familiar with what you're doing and what's going on. And again, this is only my opinion, I'm the chairman of the day so I can't make a motion. So stating your case and stating the information to us as best you can is what you have to do. Other than that, that's all. I guess we need something in a motion or are we -- we can move on. MR. BLUM: I'd like -- I don't see anything other than negatives in what I see here. I don't see any ray of light. I know it's not required for Mr. Zook, but let's just say for example he did have a glowing wonderful credit report of his own. That would be a nice thing to see, that's all. I know it's not required, and I'm not basing my judgment on it, but everything else here, there's nothing that really stands out to say yes, this is going to be a good thing. There's a lot of -- JUDGE TRETTIS: It's a purely emotional thing then, right? MR. BLUM: No, it's not. Payment indication: Payments are increasingly late. Increasingly late. They're already at 72 days. That doesn't speak well for Golden, okay? Patricia scores 580. Okay, she got a mortgage. But you can get a mortgage almost -- in today's Page 18 August 17, 2005 climate, that really doesn't prove you're a great person for credit just because you got a mortgage, it really doesn't. MR. NEALE: And if I may, just for the benefit of everyone here, under the Florida rule, which is, as previously noted, incorporated in the ordinance, the financial responsibility grounds on which the board shall refuse to qualify -- it's not an option -- is number (sic) C, and that is an unfavorable credit report or history as indicated by any of the documents submitted. So if the board deems that it is an unfavorable credit report, based on the required documents, which is the Golden Plumbing, the board is -- mandatorily says shall refuse to qualify an applicant. If the applicant can prove by other means that they're financially responsible, then the board can -- MR. BLUM: If Mr. Zook had a great credit report, if he owned 30 percent of this business, something that made us feel better that him looking as a great guy would take over and be able to handle things. Because he's the responsible party. JUDGE TRETTIS: Number one, Golden Gate (sic), it's already licensed. He has a state license and a county license. Okay, if it -- to get this over with, if it would please this board, he's willing to take a 20 percent stated -- MR. ZOOK: And then I would have to -- JUDGE TRETTIS: -- publicly stated ownership -- THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me, one at a time, please. JUDGE TRETTIS: He's willing to take a 20 percent ownership in the company. MR. BLUM: I personally would like to see that. MR. ZOOK: Then I have to submit my credit application. Which is fine, if that's what it's going to take. MR. BLUM: I'm speaking for me now, not for the board. MR. ZOOK: But there's no guarantee they're going to approve me. Page 19 August 17, 2005 ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: I can only tell you that if we had that information before us and it was good, and you did have the 20 percent, it would be in your favor, and I probably would, along with the rest of the members of the board, be more inclined to say yes. JUDGE TRETTIS: But it seems like you're basing what I think is going to be your decision on the credit report, which is -- MR. ZOOK: A score, yeah. JUDGE TRETTIS: -- a score for someone who you're not -- we didn't have to submit a credit report on. MR. BLUM: Based on what we see here -- ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Right. MR. BLUM: -- it's not good. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: As it stands still-- MR. BLUM: We feel good about this man, okay? We feel good about you and your opinion of him. That weighs a lot for me. But nothing else that we see on paper does look good. He's the only person that has a favorable impression, personally. JUDGE TRETTIS: Because there's some late payments for some supplies from Golden; is that what you're -- MR. BLUM: A two-year-old business that's 72 days late consistently and getting worse for Golden, and he's been qualifying it with no ownership stake. Which means he'd be totally liable, yet he's got nothing out of it. Now he's going to do the same thing with a new company with no ownership stake with people that have low scores. Really, I don't think we're being too hard here. And if that's what -- it shows an intent, it shows a trend. And we'd like to see a trend that was more positive. JUDGE TRETTIS: I think you're wrong in that decision, but that MR. BLUM: We haven't made a decision. JUDGE TRETTIS: I can see a train running down the track, so-- MR. BLUM: We haven't made a decision. I'm just speaking for Page 20 August 17, 2005 me personally. JUDGE TRETTIS: I've been in the business in this town for 38 years, and I think I see a train coming down the track. I think I can hear it. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Well, believe me, that's not -- I don't think that's the case. We look at every case individually -- JUDGE TRETTIS: I'm a betting man. I like to bet, Richard. MS. KELLER: Yeah, but I think there is a way that you maybe could qualify a new company and just separating yourself -- JUDGE TRETTIS: Well, I appreciate your concern. MS. KELLER: -- from Golden -- MR. BLUM: We'd like to see this happen. MS. KELLER: -- and try and qualify as a new company with new owners that -- you know, you don't -- it doesn't have to be the end. It's not a train wreck, it just needs to be repositioned, maybe. MR. LEWIS: If it please the board, I'd like to make a motion. MR. NEALE: What I would -- if I may, Mr. Lewis, if the applicant wishes to withdraw his application and resubmit, as opposed to having the motion on the record, I would suggest that the board give him that opportunity. JUDGE TRETTIS: Yeah, we'll make that motion, or make that request. Thank you, Pat. MR. LEWIS: Okay, they're making a request to withdraw? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: There's been a request to withdraw the application. JUDGE TRETTIS: At this time. Thanks, gentlemen, ladies. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Moving right along. Mr. Brian Morse, are you here? (N 0 response.) ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Not here. Larry W. Sideri. MR. SIDERI: Yes, sir. Page 21 -_."-_¥..,-,.....'''...,~.._-_.- August 17, 2005 ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: You're here. Would you please come up to be sworn in, please. (Speakers were duly sworn.) ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Mr. Sideri, would you please kind of give us an overview of why you're here today. MR. SIDERI: Yes. I'm the person qualifying for the license. Boston Quality Plumbing, Incorporated. This is Lynn Bertrand. MS. BERTRAND: I'm the owner. MR. SIDERI: The president, the owner. MS. BERTRAND: He's my fiancee. He's going to be the qualifying agent. MR. BESWICK: Congratulations. MR. SIDERI: Thank you. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: And could you give us a little insight on what the purpose of the second entity is going to be? MS. BERTRAND: Well, there isn't a second, there's only Boston Qualify Plumbing, Inc. It's going to be service work, residential service. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Oh, I'm very sorry. I read the wrong report. MS. BERTRAND: I guess the reason we're here, because Larry has an IRS judgment on his credit report, which has been -- we've gone through the channels with our accountant and it's presently in a non-collect status. And once he starts working, it's going to be addressed. MR. BLUM: Well, he had a Chapter Seven that's been filed. Was there a Chapter Seven? MR. SIDERI: No. MS. BERTRAND: No. MR. BLUM: No? MS. KELLER: That's a lien. MR. BLUM: Oh, it was a discharge. Page 22 August 17, 2005 MR. BESWICK: Yeah, it says discharge. MS. BERTRAND: He has an investment account from the MFS. I think you should have a copy of that in there, which -- if I can find it. But anyways, that IRS is going to be addressed in October. That's been put on a non-collect status. And this is a new company. I'm the owner and I have 90 percent, Larry has 10 percent. And we'll be drawing a salary. And this is one of his investment funds in the Plumbers and Pipefitters. I don't know if you have a copy. I'll show you, bring it up to you. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: We have to put this into evidence. That's available to him at the end of September. MR. BLUM: Oh, I see, so -- MS. BERTRAND: It's an IRA, which the Local won't allow him to touch. MR. BLUM: So he'll be able to pay off his $12,000 lien? MS. BERTRAND: That's exactly what he -- yeah, that's what we're going to do. MR. BLUM: Is this a personal lien or a business lien? How did this all come about? MS. BERTRAND: That was a result of his divorce, and his ex-wife is responsible for half of that IRS bill, which apparently she's choosing -- MR. BLUM: So these were personal taxes that weren't paid? MS. BERTRAND: Personal taxes. MR. BLUM: Okay. MR. SIDERI: Excuse me, I was just curious. The last application that I filled out, you don't have a copy of that? Which I thought would be, you know, a standard thing. MR. BLUM: Yeah, but we like to hear from you, too. MR. SIDERI: No, no, but I was just curious. You should have the MFS report and -- Page 23 August 17, 2005 MR. BLUM: Yeah. MR. SIDERI: -- all the vital -- I was just curious about that. Thank you. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: There's another item in here that I'm looking at, a foreclosure proceeding starting from Washington Mutual, 2004. Could you elaborate on that just a little bit? MR. SIDERI: That's when I was in the Union. I'm employed for almost two years and trying to make things work on a new home that I had built at that time and with my now ex-wife, and just had some late payments. The foreclosing -- the foreclosure was not in effect. As you can see, it was already taken care of. But we had to put it on the report. You know, one of those -- one of those things. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: This is where it was transferred to Corinthian, is that the case? MR. SIDERI: Yes. MS. BERTRAND: And it was paid. He sold the house and -- MR. SIDERI: And it was paid. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Again, just kind of picking your brain here a second. MR. BLUM: These aren't the easiest things to read sometimes. MR. SIDERI: I understand. MR. BLUM: And then there's a new mortgage for 202,000 with GMAC. That's a different house you purchased? MR. SIDERI: No. New mortgage? MR. BLUM: Well, I assume it's a mortgage for 202,000. It's current. I'm just -- I mean, it's really none of my business actually to ask you that. MS. BERTRAND: There is no mortgage. MR. SIDERI: No, there is no mortgage. I don't know how you're reading that. MS. BERTRAND: That was sold and paid. MR. SIDERI: Yes, that was -- Page 24 August 17, 2005 MR. NEALE: Yeah, that's paid off. MR. BLUM: That was paid off? Yes. Oh, okay, I see. So are we getting asked to let him qualify a business in lieu of the tax lien; is that it? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Yes. MR. BESWICK: He wants us to reinstate his license. MR. BLUM: Oh, to reinstate his license? MR. NEALE: No, this one is -- MS. BERTRAND: No, it's a new one. MR. NEALE: -- a new application. This is Mr. Sideri, not Mr. Morse. This is a new application. MR. BESWICK: Wrong one. MR. BLUM: You got this guy. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: I'd ask Mr. Neale, on this IRS tax lien, we haven't had one of these in forever. Is this basically saying that as long as he pays on this amount of money that he owes in a reasonable fashion that -- he's made an agreement with IRS -- then this problem goes away? MR. NEALE: The real-- you know, the test, as we were discussing with the previous applicant, remains the same. It's the board's discretion and determination to see if this gentleman has the adequate financial responsibility to be able to pay his contracting debts that he would incur as a contractor in a timely fashion, regardless of whatever the circumstances are. So, you know, that's one of the things the board needs to look at is previous judgments. This is -- it's not an automatic disqualifier, but it does fall under the unfavorable credit report or history. So the board would have to make a determination as to whether that lien would disqualify . MR. BLUM: Is Mr. Sideri going to own any part of this new business? MS. BERTRAND: Yes, he has 10 percent. I assigned 10 Page 25 August 17, 2005 percent of the stock to him and I hold 90. MS. KELLER: Is this company currently operating? MS. BERTRAND: No, because he hasn't -- this is going to be brand new, and we were waiting for him to get his license to start. This will be a brand new company. MR. BLUM: Mrs. Bertrand, her score was like 640 or something, if I read this right? MS. BERTRAND: Right. MR. NEALE: If I may, one of the tests, pursuant to the rule, as stated before, is found in the previous rule, 61.G.4-15.005, which are financial responsibility questions. One of the questions asked under that rule is are there now any liens of record by the IRS or the State of Florida corporate tax division against any person named or any organization in which such person was a responsibility, as defined in the paragraph. They answered no to that. That's one of the guidelines the board shall consider. It is not automatically disqualifying, but it's a guideline to be considered. MR. BLUM: But the intent is this 44,000, you're going to take 12 -- MS. BERTRAND: Exactly. MR. BLUM: You'll have access in that in October? MS. BERTRAND: Yeah. You have to notify the Local a month in advance of your retirement, and then a year later the monies are to be released, which will be in September. End of September, we can notify -- Larry can notify his Local, and they will -- MFS will release the funds. MR. BLUM: That's this September? MR. SIDERI: Yes. MS. BERTRAND: Exactly. MR. NEALE: Point that I may want to bring up to the board is the board can grant a license with restrictions in that the board could grant this gentleman a license, subject to him providing proof within a Page 26 August 17, 2005 period of time that this lien is satisfied. If he doesn't provide the proof within that period of time, the license will become void. If he does provide the proof within that period of time, then the license would become an unqualified license. MR. BLUM: That works for me. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Great input. MR. LEWIS: Yeah, I like that. MR. SIDERI: If I could just add one thing about my character, if it's called for, or if it helps out this issue, is that I have an Associate's in science and criminal justice. I, you know, wanted to be a police officer, because I like people, dealing with people. Primary reason for Florida license contractor is to protect the health, safety and welfare of the people and that's the way I am. Just a regular person, you know, trying to make a comfortable living for Lynn and I, and I love dealing with people. Treat them fairly and hope that same of me. MR. BESWICK: Laudable. MR. BLUM: Have you had much experience in doing plumbing yourself? MR. SIDERI: Yes, 23 years. As a Union plumber, pipefitter, welder. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Whereabouts? What state? MR. SIDERI: Massachusetts. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Massachusetts. I was going to say New York City, but I thought I'd better-- MR. SIDERI: From nuclear power plants to Digital, Hewlett-Packard. MS. BERTRAND: Medical Gas. MR. SIDERI: Medical Gas, Certified. And Raytheon. MR. NEALE: Actually, it appears from documents submitted that he actually has a current license in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Page 27 August 17, 2005 MR. BLUM: Mr. Lewis, would you like to draft a proposal here? Since you do that so well. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Anyone have a motion they want to put on the floor? MR. LEWIS: If the board's ready for a motion. MS. KELLER: We're ready. MR. LEWIS: If it please the board, I so move that the request for Boston Quality Plumbing, Incorporated be approved with a stipulation that the tax lien that's shown now be paid off and 100 percent within six months of the issue date of this license. Randy (sic), can you help me, what's the proper wording for this license? A license with an exemption, or-- MR. NEALE: It would be a license with restrictions. MR. LEWIS: License with restriction for six months. That the text lien be paid off within that six-month period or the license would become null and void. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: We have a motion on the floor. MR. BLUM: I'll second that. Blum. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: All in favor? MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Aye. MR. BESWICK: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Any opposed? (No response.) ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Okay, looks like it's granted. MS. BERTRAND: Thank you. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: You have six months. MR. SIDERI: Thank you. Appreciate it. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Vice-chairman, are they certain -- are we Page 28 August 17, 2005 certain they understand the restriction on the license? MR. SIDERI: Yes. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: You do understand the tax lien must be paid off within six months or the license becomes void? MS. KELLER: And how do we know that that's done? Do they come back before us or -- ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Staffprobably knows. MR. BLUM: Mr. Ossorio's going to let us know. MR.OSSORIO: We'll put a red flag on his license. And so within that six months it will come up that he needs to provide us with information to make it current and possible again. That's all. MS. BERTRAND: We could bring-- ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: If anything should happen before then, say that you -- something happens and you pay it off in four months and it's done, you could take the copies of all those records down to Collier County and present that to them and they will take it off your license -- MS. BERTRAND: To the licensure board? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: I'm sorry? MS. BERTRAND: To the licensure board? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Yes. They will then make it a bona fide license and no more restrictions. MS. BERTRAND: Beautiful. Thank you very much. MR. SIDERI: Appreciate it. MR. BLUM: Good luck. MR. SIDERI: Have a nice day. MR. BLUM: Thank you, Mr. Neale. MR. NEALE: My pleasure. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: And we have a Jesse Sowanick. Could you please come forward and be sworn in, please. (Speaker was duly sworn.) ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Mr. Sowanick, would youb Page 29 August 17, 2005 please give us an overall of what you're trying to have us look at. MR. SOW ANICK: Good morning. First of all, I want to apologize for my absence in my last allocation for this meeting. I actually got a job and my employer said you're working for me, you're not going anywhere. So that's why I didn't make it. What I'd like to do is, I have a long history in the construction industry. I'm a licensed general contractor in the State of New Mexico, in good standing. And what I'd like to do here in Florida, which is what I -- actually my trade is what I started out with, and then went on to various other things -- is to do tile and marble. And my request to you is to be granted licensure via reciprocity, based on the qualifications that I have as a general contractor in the State of New Mexico. I have well over what the qualifications are here in Florida as a tile and marble contractor. MR. BLUM: When were you last tested in Mexico? When was your last date? MR. SOW ANICK: My last test in New Mexico actually was March of2004. MR. BLUM: As a general contractor? MR. SOW ANICK: Correct. MS. KELLER: May of2004. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: May of2004. MR. SOW ANICK: Oh, was it May? MR. BLUM: May of'04. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: He passed with an 87. MS. KELLER: Seventy-five. MR. BLUM: One was 87. The law was -- business law was 87. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: No, I have a grade score here that says he passed with a score of 87, May 25th of '04. Seventy-five is required in New Mexico. MR. BLUM: Test was done by Experior. MS. KELLER: Did you take the business and law exam as well? Page 30 ~-_.-.."..--~,-"..-><,._<.,-.,._- ' August 17, 2005 MR. SOWANICK: Yes, I did. MS. KELLER: Is that in here? MR. SOW ANICK: That actually didn't get in. It was taken through a different company. It's not taken through Experian. And I'm pushing them to get me a copy of that. And because it was over a year, they have to go into archives. I've been very busy working. I'm working six days a week now. I have a family of four, so -- I have four children and a wife, so my schedule's very hectic. I've been trying to push them to get me that information. MS. KELLER: Do you remember what score you got on that exam? MR. SOW ANICK: It was like a 90 something. It was in the 90's, I'm sure. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: How long have you been doing tile and marble? MR. SOW ANICK: I've been doing tile and marble -- I first started doing tile and marble when I got out of high school, which was 1985. I started out as a hottie and worked my way up into putting stone together. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: If I'm not being too forward, what -- as a general contractor in New Mexico, how did you end up in Florida? MR. SOW ANICK: We moved here in 2001, after a series of unfortunate events there. We decided to move down here. MR. HORN: So you've lived in Florida since '01? MR. SOW ANICK: Well, we moved here originally in 2001. We moved away in 2002 to the Twin Cities to take care of my mother-in-law. And then we moved back here in June. MR. HORN: Of this year? MR. SOW ANICK: Of this year. MR. HORN: Do you live in Collier County? Page 31 August 17, 2005 MR. SOWANICK: Yes, I do. MR. HORN: Just curious. Because your driver's license shows you're a resident of Marathon, Florida. MR. SOW ANICK: That was a three-month vacation we took down there and I had to get my license renewed and -- MR. HORN: Gotcha. MR. SOW ANICK: -- didn't want to drive five hours up here to Naples to do that. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Do you have a valid Florida license now -- here? MR. SOW ANICK: It's a valid Florida license, but it's not Collier County. That's the same license that I'm carrying now. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Okay. MR. LEWIS: J esse, can you tell me -- and I call you by your first name, because I'll mess up your last name. I apologize for that. But can you tell me, you moved to the Twin Cities in 2002, then moved back here when? MR. SOW ANICK: In 2003 we actually went moved -- we actually went down to the Keys for three months, actually with the intention of staying down there and working as a project manager for a stone and precast company. But the cost of living there was greater than what I was making, so we moved back here. MR. LEWIS: Back to Collier County. MR. SOW ANICK: Back to Collier County. MR. LEWIS: Can I ask you why you took a test in I guess -- where is this from, Arizona or something? MR. SOW ANICK: It's New Mexico. MR. LEWIS: New Mexico. Why did you take a test in New Mexico in 2004 if you planned on staying and working in Collier County? Why didn't you just take the Collier County license? MR. SOWANICK: We went back to New Mexico based on -- I was raised in New Mexico. I got a phone call from a friend there who Page 32 August 17, 2005 said, I really need you to come out here, I've got a bunch of work that I need to have done. It was a couple of jobs. I was doing pretty much doing all of the high-end restaurants, galleries, stonework and tile there at the time. So for profit-wise, monetary-wise, I went back there for a year. MR. LEWIS: All right. I also see on your license that was granted by the State of New Mexico, it says as a licensed GB02 -- MR. SOWANICK: Yes. MR. LEWIS: -- which permits you to contract projects singly in New Mexico ofa dollar amount up to $200,000. MR. SOW ANICK: That is -- actually has to do with my surety bond, which you pay 100 or $190, or -- the amount that you pay to have the surety bond is the amount that you're licensed to do business in the amount. Now, if I may, the reason I got a contractor's license is because when I'm doing tile and stone, there are things that I run into that would be profitable to me as a business to do, as opposed to subbing out to somebody else. Such as some light framing, cabinetry. The only thing that I'm not licensed to do in New Mexico is the electrical and the gas and plumbing. MR. LEWIS: You don't think that's going to be advantageous to you here, or you just don't want to take our test requirements? MR. SOW ANICK: No, it's not that I don't want to take the test requirements. That is an economic issue. Because I do not have the cash in bank that you require to do the general contractor. Nor do I -- nor do I really want to get into the general contracting here in Florida. I worked for Boren, Craig, Barber, Engel when I first moved down here. MR. LEWIS: What about the tile and marble license? You know we have a separate tile and marble license. I think the requirements for that are quite a bit less. MR. SOW ANICK: Yeah, I think it's 2,500 cash in bank. And I Page 33 August 17, 2005 do have that. And I believe that's attached. But I didn't feel the need to go out and -- through the years, my experience it's going to be more profitable for me to do exactly what I know best and how, you know, to do -- to stay in more of a fine line instead of doing a broad spectrum. There's a lot of companies that do just about everything and they wind up putting -- they have 50 baskets out there and they're really not making any money, because it's hard to keep up with that much, you know, with the amount of operation. MR. LEWIS: Okay, thank you. MS. KELLER: Is anybody ready for a motion? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Just one quick question. Staff, has this gentleman filled out a packet of any sort, or are we just reviewing this to try to grandfather his license in, when he walks out of here he has a license? MR.OSSORIO: No, he's going to have to fill out -- if you do grant him the waiver of the exam, he still has to fill out the whole application. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Okay. MR. OSSORIO: But I guess he'll want some direction, is the testing going to be superfluous to the job he's going to be doing, and then he can apply for -- if he has bad credit or has any kind of niches, then he has to come back before you. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Okay, that's what I thought. MR. SOW ANICK: Sir, excuse me, to avoid that, I did send out for a contractor's reporting service. They sent it to me and I unknowingly opened it. I have a copy of that. And there are some derogatory issues on that. And I'll briefly explain. In 1998, I had a $750,000 contract with a contractor for doing stone and tile, and close to the end of that proj ect the owner decided that he was going to hire my crew, which it was basically salting my crew and hiring them, getting rid of me, which ultimately he did. And I was forced to file bankruptcy in 2001. Page 34 August 17, 2005 ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Okay, at this moment, I really don't think this is relevant. I understand the comments, but I don't think it's relevant to what we're trying to decide here now. MR. SOWANICK: Okay. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: We're just trying to understand that you have a license from New Mexico as a residential building contractor, and you're trying to use reciprocity in order to allow you to apply for a tile and marble license here in Collier County or the State of Florida. MR. SOW ANICK: Correct. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: That's what's before us right now. And then once that happens and, say, we give you that ability to be able to go and apply, then you would fill out the credit applications and then if there's anything derogatory, then you would probably have to come back before us one more time. MR. OSSORIO: The contracting licensing supervisor will review your application, and then if he feels like it needs to go in front of the board, he'll call you and let you know. But this is the first step. MR. SOWANICK: Okay. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: How does the pleasure of the board feel about the testing requirements for New Mexico? Or do you have comments, any other comments? MR. BLUM: I have to weigh in. I'd like to see the man take the test. I see -- I don't think he'll have any problem with it. Shouldn't be that big of an issue. I'd really like to see him take our test. MR. LEWIS: And he's gainfully employed at this time. And taking the test, I know it's a hardship, because we've all -- most of us have done it here, but I think it's necessary. We have no idea, like at our earlier discussion, even with Broward County across our own state here, we don't know what their testing requirements are, and we certainly don't know what New Mexico's are. Page 35 August 17, 2005 And I don't know -- I know I'm a general contractor, so I'm allowed to install tile. I wouldn't do that, because that's not my profession. And I'm sure Jesse has the experience that he's saying, but we have nothing here to tell us from any satisfied clients or any people that he's worked for or anything else that says, hey, yeah, he's a great tile installer and we think, you know, he should be allowed to do this. So that might be something of consideration if the board's will for the future. MR. NEALE: If I may, Mr. Lewis, just a couple of points of direction for the board. Pursuant to the ordinance, Section 22-184-C, that's the waiver of testing requirement section. And it states that the board may consider the applicant's relevant recent experience in the specific trade and based upon such experience may waive testing requirements if convinced that the applicant is qualified by experience whereby such competency testing would be superfluous. That's one point that you may wish to consider. The other is under Section 22-186, which is the examination section, and it states that examinations shall be specific to the trade category for which the application for a certificate of competency has been made. So both of those speak to the specificity of the examination. While he could do tile and marble under a contractor's license, our ordinance requires that there be specific examinations. MR. SOW ANICK: If I may? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Sure. MR. SOW ANICK: Right now I'm working as an installer. And I've worked for two companies down here as a project manager. Tile and marble and fabrication and precast. So when it comes time to take the test, is it necessary for me to provide that information, based on having experience in the State of Florida? And is that going to be an issue because of the length of time that I had that experience here in the State of Florida? Page 36 August 17, 2005 MR. NEALE: Just for direction for you, sir, is in the ordinance, Section 22-183-B, sets out how to determine if you possess the relevant experience. And all which you need to supply is affidavits from former employers with specifics to number of years you've worked in the trade; copies of other certificates of competency, if you have such; affidavits from any building director on locations where you may have worked; affidavits from any union organization or affidavits from any source within the trade applied for. So -- and the county has a standard affidavit form that you can use for that. MR. SOW ANICK: Is that state specific, sir? MR. NEALE: It's not state specific. So if you have experience elsewhere, those are considered. MR. LEWIS: Randy, the total experience requirements is what, 24 months for that, tile and marble? MR. NEALE: I think it is. The tile and marble is 24 months expenence. MR. LEWIS: So 24 months total experience. I'm sure that would be easy for you to provide. And then you fill out the application, take the test, you won't have to see us again. MR. NEALE: The regular test and the business and law. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: I have to concur with Mr. Lewis's comments the same way. I think we need to see a little bit more about your real qualifications and what you can do in the tile and marble business. Again, we don't know New Mexico from Adam, so it's very difficult for us to say that their laws and your experience there dictates that we can use that reciprocity to grandfather that license. MR. SOW ANICK: Right. Even though you use the same testing company? MR. BLUM: Quite frankly, if you were a contractor here and wanted to do that, we'd probably -- wouldn't make a whole lot of difference. We'd want to make sure you did the tile part. It's really not because you got it in New Mexico, not for me anyway. Page 37 August 17, 2005 MR. LEWIS: I think it's more being specific in that area. And that seems where your expertise is, so that shouldn't be a problem for you. And according to our ordinances, you know, we need to show or have that experience in that area, and I think it would be a real easy test for you. And just pop in there and take care of it. Good luck. MR. SOW ANICK: Thank you. MR. BLUM: Staff will do it. We won't even know it. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: I'm going on the last question, maybe just for the board. The business and law portions of this test, is that something that would be something that's standard or -- MR. NEALE: I don't know. I don't know whether it's standard nationwide or state to state. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: You say you got -- what grade average? What testing grade -- MR. SOW ANICK: Ninety something. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: If that was something we could prove, then that would be something you wouldn't have -- MR. BLUM: Would that apply, Mr. Ossorio, if he showed the testing within the last -- a recent period of time, business and law? MR. OSSORIO: I don't think so. Not unless we get a letter from the company saying they -- it's the same procedure. But our one-hour -- we have a one-hour exam, which is 20 questions. It's pretty simple. I don't think he's going to have a problem taking the one-hour exam business and law. We have that Gainesville Independent Testing now, it's pretty simple. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Okay. MR. LEWIS: Do we need a motion on this? MR. NEALE: Yeah, what I'd suggest is, as in the previous case, allow the gentleman to withdraw his request and come back, if need be. You know, theoretically he won't be coming back to the board. MR. LEWIS: Do that? ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Do you wish to withdraw the Page 38 August 17, 2005 application at this time? MR. SOW ANICK: Yes, I do. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: All right. Then do we need a motion for that? MR. NEALE: No. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: No. Okay, you're done. MR. SOW ANICK: Thank you for your time. MR. BLUM: Thank you very much. Good luck. MR. BESWICK: Good luck. MR. NEALE: One quick comment for the board, so that we can get out of here. I did -- Mr. Zachary and I did do some reviewing of the current ordinance for ordinance changes. We're still in the process -- Mr. Zachary is in training today, so he wasn't able to attend. And I also reviewed the changes to 489 that are relevant that have been made by the legislature. The primary change that probably needs to be incorporated in the ordinance is that they have raised the maximum fine amount from 5,000 to 10,000. So that's something that will need to be incorporated in the ordinance. Aside from that, there have been a couple of product applicators that have spoken to myself and Mr. Zachary about their new products for coatings and things like that that the board probably needs to review as to whether they need to be put in a particular license category. And I'm sure staff is working on some things. So hopefully at next month's meeting, we'll be looking at it with a more comprehensive look. But those -- that's where we are so far on the review. And as I say, the primary thing that leapt out at me from the statutory modifications was the change in the fine. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Which is probably a good thing. MR. NEALE: Yeah. I think the last time it was changed was Page 39 August 17, 2005 back in the mid 90's. So with inflation and everything else, $10,000 probably is a bigger bite. MR. BESWICK: You've raised it to a whole tank of gas. MR. NEALE: Yeah, raised it to a whole tank of gas. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: All right, there's no other old business. No public hearings. MR. LEWIS: Mr. Vice-chairman, I did have a question for Randy (sic). One of the things that came up today, I believe with Mr. Zook, under our licensing requirements you were reading some requirements to us that still are going around in my head and I must have misunderstood them. But it seems like a quandary that we may want to address, if this is the case. That if a person is less than 10 percent business owner on a second entity, he does not have to provide a credit report, a personal credit report. But if the business is less than a year old, it requires a credit report on the majority owner. MR. NEALE: No. The requirement -- the 10 percent -- I don't know where the 10 percent rule came up. It really doesn't have anything to do with it. MR. BLUM: Something we've just been using ourselves. MR. NEALE: Yeah, I mean, it really has no relevance. The relevance is under -- it's ordinance section 22-182-C, business organizations. And the requirement on credit reports is that a credit report from a nationally recognized credit agency -- this is for any business organization qualification, whether it's primary or secondary entity -- from a nationally recognized credit agency, if the business organization has been in existence for more than one year. If it's been in existence for less than one year, a credit report on every business organization in which the applicant/qualifier was an agent is required. If neither of the above is applicable, a personal credit report on the applicant/qualifier is required. Page 40 August 17, 2005 So you really only get to the personal credit report if the previous two cannot be satisfied. MS. KELLER: You know, the problem with that is so many of the second company quali -- some people that tried to qualify a second company were just qualifying as an employee, really, for different owners. And then they go to set up a new company and we have no information on their credit. We can't really go on the old company, because it's owned by somebody different. So I have a real problem with that, that guidance, because it's not -- doesn't make sense to me. MR. NEALE: It's based on the state statute. And they do have to put in affidavits as to their integrity, good business reputation. And they do have to sign the affidavits that they are legally responsible for the business. MS. KELLER: Right. But they could have a horrible credit report and if they're qualifying another company owned by somebody else, they can qualify their own company and with a horrible credit report and set up another company and we don't have any -- MR. NEALE: The problem is the standard -- well, not the problem, the standard set out by the state and adopted by the county is that it's -- their credit history, as it pertains to their contracting business. If they have -- someone could have an absolutely horrible personal credit history, but if he pays his business debts on time, that's all that is really relevant, unless it's shown that he cannot meet the other tests, you know, that he can't provide business credit reports. So yes, they do need to show that they're financially responsible. You know, that is a test that is in there. MS. KELLER: So we could ask for a credit report. MR. NEALE: You can ask for a credit report on them, because the board does have the responsibility, pursuant to the ordinance and to the Florida rule, that they must determine that he will not create a danger to the public that he would not pay his contracting debts. It's sort of that you don't get care -- the standard is sort of the Page 41 August 17, 2005 board shouldn't care whether or doesn't pay his mortgage, the board should care whether he pays his suppliers and makes sure that his -- he runs his contracting business in a good fashion. MS. KELLER: But if he's qualifying the first company that's owned by somebody else, even though he was the qualifier, the owners really are the ones that have been financially responsible. So if the person is leaving that business and setting up a second entity -- MR. NEALE: Except for the fact that he really by law is financially responsible. Period. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Right. Bottom line. But-- MS. KELLER: Right, but just from a practical point of view -- MR. NEALE: From a practical point of view -- MS. KELLER: -- it's a dangerous situation. MR. NEALE: Yeah. I mean, to use an example, the one I've used before, if U.S. Homes goes bankrupt, theoretically the contractor who is the qualifier is on the hook. But reality is that u.S. Homes is on the hook. So the issue is particularly as it pertains to the county is that the county does not have the option that the state has, which is the financially responsible officer or financial responsible party under the county ordinance. And it was reviewed by this board a few years ago whether that would be incorporated, and the board decided not to go with that. So the contractor ultimately, under county ordinance, is the responsible party, the financially responsible party, period. And that's just the way the county ordinance works. MR. BLUM: On another note, and the Judge brought up a very good point, we don't really have any standards. I mean, I have a personal standard on these credit scores, and to me, somebody under 600 scares me to death. I don't know, is there any way to do that? He's got a very valid point. Who are you to say that 580 isn't a good score? And he's right. Page 42 August 17, 2005 MR. NEALE: And the -- you know, the state rule and our ordinance in the state statute do not make any specifics. They -- you know, I read the rule before, it truly is based on the board interpreting the information submitted and determining whether the person is, pursuant to the definition, financially responsible. MR. BLUM: So we all have to make up our own minds. MR. NEALE: Yeah. But certainly things like tax liens and so forth are to be considered. You know, the state does have specific net worth requirements for certain licensure categories that you have to meet, and certain cash requirements for certain licenses or categories. The county doesn't have that in our ordinance. So it is a judgment call but, you know, there are at least guidelines set out in the ordinance and in the rule. If the board would like, we can make copies of the rule and make sure everybody has it in their hands so that we can use that. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: I think that would be good for all of us sometimes. Some of these rules are difficult to understand and we have to use our own judgments. I mean, I think that this board does a very good job of analyzing a credit report and coming up with the right decision, even in all the items that were on today's agenda. It's a little scary when you have a judge come before you and -- or an ex-judge come before you and then basically wanted us to approve this and-- , MR. BLUM: We can't. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: -- I don't think anybody on this board really wanted to. MR. BLUM: No. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: So I think we made the right decision. MR. BLUM: Like he said, so your emotions is what make this-- and he's right, yeah, they were. And he's got a real good point. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Ifhe'd have brought himself a Page 43 August 17, 2005 personal credit report in here that we had to look at and he was just, you know, fantastic, then a little more to go on. MR. BLUM: Yeah. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: But for him to run a company that he's licensing now, and that company is not doing very well, it's very difficult to say -- MR. BLUM: And the two new people didn't have a good -- ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: -- the next company's going to do -- MR. BLUM: -- rating. MR. NEALE: Well, you know, the board is -- you're required to look at specifically what the ordinance states and what he's submitted. And frankly, the credit reports on the new owners were irrelevant. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Right. MR. NEALE: They had nothing to do with the -- MR. BLUM: They raised another flag that we saw. MR. NEALE: It raised a flag. MR. BLUM: We didn't need to see that flag, but we did see it. MR. NEALE: Exactly. MR. BLUM: It's like don't listen to that testimony after it's said. MR. NEALE: Yeah, whoops. So that's one issue that the board really -- that was information that you probably shouldn't have ever seen. MR. BLUM: Yeah. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: On the other hand, though, if the credit report on the business would have been perfect and a lot of good recommendations or a lot of good history there, then it probably would have been approved. MR. NEALE: Well, and that would have been appropriate. If the previous business of Golden Plumbing had a pristine credit report and the board had seen that -- MR. BLUM: If Patricia's was 750 instead of 540 -- Page 44 August 17, 2005 MR. NEALE: Even though it was irrelevant -- MR. BLUM: -- it would have definitely -- ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Turned a leaf. MR. BLUM: -- turned it around. That's okay for us to do that. MR. NEALE: Well, except that her credit report, as I say, really wasn't relevant. Wasn't even something to be taken into consideration. The only credit report that you really had to rely on was the credit report from his current -- the company he currently qualifies. MR. BLUM: That was scary. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: No public hearings. Any other reports? (No response.) ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Next meeting will be on September 21st, 2005. I need a motion. MR. LEWIS: Move to adjourn. MR. BESWICK: Second, Beswick. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: All in favor. MS. KELLER: Aye. MR. LEWIS: Aye. MR. BESWICK: Aye. MR. BLUM: Aye. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: Aye. MR. HORN: Aye. ACTING CHAIRMAN JOSLIN: See you next month. Page 45 August 17, 2005 ***** There being no further business for the good of the County, the meeting was adjourned by order of the Chair at 10:16 a.m. COLLIER COUNTY CONTRACTOR LICENSING BOARD RICHARD JOSLIN, VICE CHAIRMAN Page 46